AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pm
June 30, 2020 - July 27, 2020
punch holes in the Teflon over time. Rubber hoses are naturally conductive enough
and brake lines don't have flow. BTW I have the impression -3 hoses are not
available conductive because they are used for brake lines and there is no
flow.
Tom Swearengen is an expert you could ask. https://www.tsflightlines.com/about-us.html
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497086#497086
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
This probably does not meet your ease of learning requirement, but I learned a
couple of weeks ago that the Micro-cap software became available for free last
December when the company that makes it decided to shut down. It is a quite
sophisticated package that formerly cost several thousand dollars. It allows
you to not only draw schematics, but use real components and then get very faithful
simulation results. I am using LEDs to test every switch path and it allows
you to simulate relays and even motors. I can turn on my master switch and
see the bus energized and then I can push the start switch and watch the starter
motor turn. It gives nearly 100% verification of correctness before the
airplane is ever wired. It does require just a little learning, but here are
several good tutorials for Micro-cap on youtube.
I tried the free SolidWorks package from EAA, but I could not get the electrical
package to install correctly on my system (I run Windows 10, but on a Mac using
Parallels Desktop). Maybe if you have a straight Windows/PC combination it
will work. I kept getting an error that it could not install the SQL database
that it needs so I finally gave up and went looking again and stumbled onto
the free Micro-cap. So far, so good. The only thing is that it doesnt really
do harness design, only schematic level work and simulation of said schematics.
The bundling and such will have to be done manually still.
The only real shortcoming I have found is that it does not include a fuse component.
It shows the current during simulation so you can size things, but it would
be great to be able to install a fuse and test all combinations of devices
to ensure that calculations for wire size and such have been done correctly.
Matt
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 29, 2020, at 8:25 PM, prestonkavanagh wrote:
>
>
> "I used LibreOffice Draw to make my wiring diagrams. It worked but was pretty
time-consuming."
>
> IF WireViz is the new best choice for documenting cables, what's the choice for
the schematics? I want to add details to a Z101 foundation. Absent software
it will be pencil lines on a paper printout, and that's well short of the standard.
What is the recommended software? Recognize that for me this is rare
and occasional use - I'll give up some functionality for drag and drop simplicity.
>
> Regards, PK
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
Joe, thank you for your comments.
>
> The schematic diagram is overly complicated.
> The utility bus can be eliminated and those loads can be powered directly from
the Main power bus.
> Both avionics buses can be eliminated and those loads can be powered directly
from the Essential bus.
Utility bus is now eliminated with latest version. I know the avionics buses make
it more complicated and more expensive. I prefer to keep them for convenience.
The risk of loosing all avionics is mitigated by having the PFD with main
Garmin components fed from the MAIN BUS and ESS BUS directly; additionally the
avionics buses are split -should 1 side fail, there will be always one nav/com
awailable on the other side.
> The two alternators will be connected in parallel whenever both contactors are
energized.
> Is one of the alternators set at a lower output voltage than the other one?
> The two relays are unnecessary failure points.
That's correct. ALT-2 is set at lower voltage. It's idle as long as voltage on
the ESS BUS does not drop to 13.8V (ALT-1 set at 14.4V)
> Eventually some other pilot will fly your plane.
> Will that pilot know what to do when some component fails?
The system is designed so that no action is required if a component or alternator
fails.
Action is required in case of emergency only: electrical smoke / elec. fire. And
this was one of my goals -to be able to isolate the MAIN BUS from the ESS BUS.
So that in case of worst scenario: IMC with elec smoke, I could potentially
isolate the the hard fault and be able to land IMC with limited but capable equipment.
I'm still open to suggestions, especially if you see more potential issues or if
my approach is incorrect.
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497095#497095
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
bobmeyers wrote:
> I would rethink what you are trying to accomplish.
>
> With all the monkey motion going on, it would seem you would be better served
going with a Z-14 rather than a gummed up Z-101.
>
> Why an avionic bus at all let alone two? I would kill them both and their relays.
>
> A utility bus seems way over the top. If you wish to control a utility device
just have a power switch for that device co-located with it. I would kill the
utility bus
>
> If the motivation for the avionic buses is to avoid brown out of all the avionic
devices not on the GAD 27, a Z-14 system will solve that for you. Most of
the Garmin devices have a second power input you can connect to a second bus.
You can use a bridge rectifier to enable dual power feeds to any device that only
has one power input.
>
> When I wired my RV14 I first drew up something similar to the ideas behind Z-101.
If the current Z-101 had been around I may have been more confident in using
that kind of layout. I went with a Z-14 layout instead.
>
> When I get in my plane, I turn on batt 2 and all the avionics come up and stay
up. I turn on batt 1 as part of my startup checklist. During engine start, no
brown outs to the avionics occur.
>
> This is the only reason I didn't go with my sorta Z-101 back then. I can think
of no other reason to choose between a straight Z-101 or a Z-14.
Bob, thank you for your comments.
I like to stay with 1 battery and 2 alternators. Avoid an extra battery and additional
switch and contactor for the X-TIE.
I agree about the UTIL BUS, it was eliminated with the latest version and the UTIL
switch moved for the specific equpment.
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497096#497096
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Let's not loose focus |
>
>The only real shortcoming I have found is that it does not include a
>fuse component. It shows the current during simulation so you can
>size things, but it would be great to be able to install a fuse and
>test all combinations of devices to ensure that calculations for
>wire size and such have been done correctly.
Is this a simulation app? Calculations for wire size etc?
A word of caution. Take care spending a lot of time
wrestling with software installation and familiarization
that (1) doesn't add to meeting design goals and
(2) simply goes to confirmation of exceedingly rudimentary
decisions . . . wire sizes and fuses . . . really?
The PRIMARY concern is to craft a failure tolerant
system that has low parts count, minimized crew
controls that beg for proper decisions in flight
followed up by minimized weight and cost of ownership.
All those AC43-13 driven 'calculations' and admonitions
are like studying how to boil eggs . . .
There's a thread running now that claims
roots in Z101. ALL of the z-figures
were crafted with a particular airframe/mission
in mind. Occasionally I run a across a builder's
assertion that "I took Zxx and crafted a really
whippy electrical system." Then I find the
drawings only slightly resemble the the
referenced Z-figure due poorly reasoned
changes.
In some cases, the differences created
failure modes hazardous to people and other
living things.
The builder of this airplane attended my
seminar and bought the book . . . but
failed to join us here on the List before
crafting his own "whippy" electrical system:
https://tinyurl.com/msfmldj
There was no critical review of the electrical
system condition/architecture for this
accident . . . but I'd bet $100 that
root cause for this incident would have
been one of those "Gosh . . . I could have
had a V8" moments:
https://tinyurl.com/y7xksy6v
Finally, there's this sad story of a
horrifyingly dismissive attitude toward
the simple physics of flight, aviation
legacy processes/practices and just
common sense.
https://tinyurl.com/mwbk9qs
Root cause for ALL of these (an many
more) bad days in the cockpit was
stone simple.
Years ago, I used this tag on my email
signature:
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
This was in no way intended to be tongue-
in-cheek . . . it's serious . . . some
times deadly serious.
If I've put my foot in a tar bucket,
I'm the FIRST person that needs to know about
it. A teacher's worst nightmare is the
discovery of an ignorant or careless complicity
in the dissemination of poor if not hazardous
information.
If one wishes to exploit a z-figure,
then start with the drawing AS-PUBLISHED.
Study it for failure to meet personal design
goals. If changes are indicated . . . DISCUSS
THOSE GOALS RIGHT HERE on the List. If changes
are warranted or a new z-figure is useful
then by all means let's do it. But make sure
that design goals are (1) realistic
and (2) improve the failure mode effects analysis.
This List is more than a SOURCE FOR GOOD
info . . . it's a FILTER FOR BAD info.
To my way of thinking no single failure will
create an emergency situation. Further, your
plan-B checklist should have a minimum of crew
tasks for failure mitigation (like flip two
switches . . . and keep flying?) and no
requirement for in-flight analysis. Save those gray-
mater exercises for in the hangar.
Trust me . . . wire and fuse sizes are
wwwaaayy down the list of your building
concerns.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimum length of fusible link wire segment |
At 07:18 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
>Bob, in a recent post you state that there is a 9-inch rule of
>thumb minimum length for fusible link wire segments. Could you
>explain the physics behind that, please?
>
>Pat
Sorry to take so long on this . . . it took a few
miles of 'asphalt engineering' to figure out how best
to explain it. I THINK I've got a way . . . let's
give it a try . . .
Fusible link performance, indeed performance of any
fusible circuit protective device is tightly bound
to the fact that most electrical conductors have
a positive temperature coefficient of resistance.
This means, it's resistance rises with temperature
of the conductor.
The rate of temperature rises is a
function of power (watts) dissipated in the
conductor mass which is the product of current
(amps) times resistance (ohms). Consider a piece
of wire, any gage, hanging out in space with some
current flowing through it.
Here's a 22AWG wire that has been happily
carrying 20A for some time. Note that I
attached a thermocouple to the sample wire
out in the middle of the rather significant
free span. Suppose I conducted this experiment
with, say a 1" piece of wire? How might we
guess that center-span's rate-of-rise would
differ for the two cases?
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/22AWG_20A.pdf
It's intuitive that heat generated in the
wire is conducted to the ends. Rate of rise
and temp equilibrium is influenced by sinking
effects of the terminals and radiation into
surrounding air. It's easy to deduce that a
short piece of wire is more resistant to
fusing than a longer one.
As a practical matter, the opening of an
electrically fusible segment tends to 'center up'
on the span. This is seen in the pictures of fuses
attached. As temperature begins to rise, heat
is generated all across the span and conducted
in both directions from any single point. The
CENTER of the span is least able to reject heat
to it's adjacent mass . . . it's getting warmed
up from both directions and also rising the fastest
due to effects of positive temperature coefficient.
Rising resistance increases electrical power dissipated
at that location more rapidly than anywhere else along
the span. Hence the temperature rise is regenerative
. . . the hotter it gets, the faster it warms up.
How long does this take? Complex question depending
on a constellation of conditions. Fuse and
breaker manufacturers work diligently to achieve
predictable performance in their products.
Here's a well written piece that explains the
thermal fiddling necessary to achieve predictable
i.e. fast versus slow blowing characteristic in fuses.
How about that little fly-spec of heat sink material
in the slow blo cartridge fuse?
https://tinyurl.com/ybkndmrc
It easy to see that control of the environment
surrounding the fusible event is critical.
A fusible link is in the 'HULK' family
of protective devices. Like its cousins,
the ANL, MANL and similar 'current limiters',
none are suited to the protection of the
more pedestrian appliance feeders. The
fusible link is SLOW and intended to clear
major faults (HUNDREDS+ AMPS) in the system
bus structure while maintaining a robust
indifference to rather severe transient overload.
Unlike our little plastic ATC friends that
can be 'hammered' into lower operating
currents by repeated excursions close to
but still short of their ratings.
Getting back to your question: Would a 6"
piece of fusible link fail to function?
How about a 1" piece? Probably not. They're
still the weakest link in the faulted pathway.
I am GUESSING that 9" figure is probably some
fusible link designer's 'happy place' for repeating
the in-service design goals he was working with.
Or perhaps it's a legacy hand-over from an automotive
industry specification.
In any case, wanting to shorten 'em up a tad is
not seriously significant to our task. My own
'happy place' would be 6". Hope this helps . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)GMAIL.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimum length of fusible link wire segment |
Elucidating Indeed, Mr N!
Best Regards,
Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 00:06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:18 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
>
> Bob, in a recent post you state that there is a 9-inch rule of
> thumb minimum length for fusible link wire segments. Could you
> explain the physics behind that, please?
>
> Pat
>
>
> Sorry to take so long on this . . . it took a few
> miles of 'asphalt engineering' to figure out how best
> to explain it. I THINK I've got a way . . . let's
> give it a try . . .
>
> Fusible link performance, indeed performance of any
> fusible circuit protective device is tightly bound
> to the fact that most electrical conductors have
> a positive temperature coefficient of resistance.
> This means, it's resistance rises with temperature
> of the conductor.
>
> The rate of temperature rises is a
> function of power (watts) dissipated in the
> conductor mass which is the product of current
> (amps) times resistance (ohms). Consider a piece
> of wire, any gage, hanging out in space with some
> current flowing through it.
>
> Here's a 22AWG wire that has been happily
> carrying 20A for some time. Note that I
> attached a thermocouple to the sample wire
> out in the middle of the rather significant
> free span. Suppose I conducted this experiment
> with, say a 1" piece of wire? How might we
> guess that center-span's rate-of-rise would
> differ for the two cases?
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/22AWG_20A.pdf
>
> It's intuitive that heat generated in the
> wire is conducted to the ends. Rate of rise
> and temp equilibrium is influenced by sinking
> effects of the terminals and radiation into
> surrounding air. It's easy to deduce that a
> short piece of wire is more resistant to
> fusing than a longer one.
>
> As a practical matter, the opening of an
> electrically fusible segment tends to 'center up'
> on the span. This is seen in the pictures of fuses
> attached. As temperature begins to rise, heat
> is generated all across the span and conducted
> in both directions from any single point. The
> CENTER of the span is least able to reject heat
> to it's adjacent mass . . . it's getting warmed
> up from both directions and also rising the fastest
> due to effects of positive temperature coefficient.
>
> Rising resistance increases electrical power dissipated
> at that location more rapidly than anywhere else along
> the span. Hence the temperature rise is regenerative
> . . . the hotter it gets, the faster it warms up.
>
> How long does this take? Complex question depending
> on a constellation of conditions. Fuse and
> breaker manufacturers work diligently to achieve
> predictable performance in their products.
>
> Here's a well written piece that explains the
> thermal fiddling necessary to achieve predictable
> i.e. fast versus slow blowing characteristic in fuses.
> How about that little fly-spec of heat sink material
> in the slow blo cartridge fuse?
>
> https://tinyurl.com/ybkndmrc
>
> It easy to see that control of the environment
> surrounding the fusible event is critical.
>
> A fusible link is in the 'HULK' family
> of protective devices. Like its cousins,
> the ANL, MANL and similar 'current limiters',
> none are suited to the protection of the
> more pedestrian appliance feeders. The
> fusible link is SLOW and intended to clear
> major faults (HUNDREDS+ AMPS) in the system
> bus structure while maintaining a robust
> indifference to rather severe transient overload.
>
> Unlike our little plastic ATC friends that
> can be 'hammered' into lower operating
> currents by repeated excursions close to
> but still short of their ratings.
>
> Getting back to your question: Would a 6"
> piece of fusible link fail to function?
> How about a 1" piece? Probably not. They're
> still the weakest link in the faulted pathway.
>
> I am GUESSING that 9" figure is probably some
> fusible link designer's 'happy place' for repeating
> the in-service design goals he was working with.
> Or perhaps it's a legacy hand-over from an automotive
> industry specification.
>
> In any case, wanting to shorten 'em up a tad is
> not seriously significant to our task. My own
> 'happy place' would be 6". Hope this helps . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Let's not loose focus |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
> There's a thread running now that claims
> roots in Z101. ALL of the z-figures
> were crafted with a particular airframe/mission
> in mind. Occasionally I run a across a builder's
> assertion that "I took Zxx and crafted a really
> whippy electrical system." Then I find the
> drawings only slightly resemble the the
> referenced Z-figure due poorly reasoned
> changes.
>
> In some cases, the differences created
> failure modes hazardous to people and other
> living things.
I guess it's me. That's the reason I shared my schematics on this forum. I don't
need to be an example for accident analysis post-mortem. I would appreciate
your comments. I am especially interested in NO GO issues and failure analysis.
I understand a load analysis is required to determine proper fuse ratings+wire
size -I'll attach the load analysis to my thread..
Where I think it will work, you might find a critical issue..
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497112#497112
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A friend of mine is building a Kitfox S7. It is 99 percent completed. He
installed the com antenna in the vertical stabilizer which has steel tube and
wood ribs and fabric cover which has been professionally painted. It is
definitely not an ideal location. A concern that I have is that there is no
ground plane. The antenna base is mounted to a wooden rib. All that is
visible or accessible is the BNC connector and coax. He installed the antenna
there because someone else did so on their plane and claimed that it worked.
Questions:
1. Should he try transmitting on the com radio to see how well the antenna
works and the range? Or could the radio be damaged by reflected power?
2. Can a ground plane be made by removing the outer insulation from the
RG-58 coax and soldering two wires to the shield near the BNC connector?
One of the two wires would droop down and forward, the other would
droop down and aft.
3. Would a new antenna work if installed inside of the steel tube fuselage?
4. Is he better off installing a new antenna on the outside of the fuselage?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497115#497115
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Let's not loose focus |
>
>I guess it's me. That's the reason I shared my schematics on this
>forum. I don't need to be an example for accident analysis
>post-mortem. I would appreciate your comments. I am especially
>interested in NO GO issues and failure analysis.
>
>I understand a load analysis is required to determine proper fuse
>ratings+wire size -I'll attach the load analysis to my thread..
>
>Where I think it will work, you might find a critical issue..
Please don't take anything I wrote personally . . .
in fact, by bringing your ideas and questions to
the List, you do'n the right thing!
Keep in mind that there are a lot
of subscribers to this list who don't
actively participate. Nonetheless they
find value in watching what passes by.
I try to tailor my offerings for a CLASS
as opposed to individuals. We haven't had
a personality clash on the List since
GMCJetpilot days . . . and I'm hoping
that doesn't happen again.
I've not engaged in your project as
yet for a variety of reasons not the
least of which is time. At the same
time, I'm intently interested in how
the rest of the 'team' are rising
to your cause.
I am encouraged by what I'm reading.
At the same time, I'm protective of our
mission and process here. Whenever I
encounter a project wherein the builder
claims some foundation based on the
AeroElectric Connection, I have an
obligation to my readers and all who
participate here to make sure that the
mission and process are not being diluted
or modified without foundation in physics
and critical thought.
Keep up the good work guys!
P.S. Remember that fuses/breaker protect
wire. The constellation electro-whizzies
in our airplanes could not care less what size
wire supplies energy as long as it
is adequate and reliable. Had a reader
some years ago who made a good deal on a
nearly full spool of 20AWG Tefzel wire.
He wondered if there was any prohibition
for using this wire for everything.
The answer was "no problem" . . . slightly
heavier but it fits all the 20AWG d-sub pins
and PIDG termials were no problem either.
He COULD populate the fuse block entirely
with 7A fuses or anything lower that wouldn't
nuisance trip.
That project would probably set any faithful
adherent to AC43-13 into fits of apoplexy
while in fact, except for a few ounces
more empty weight on the airplane, no
design goals for safety or operation were
being ignored . . . and he saved a goodly
bit of money on wire and time for having to
'optimize' each fuse/feeder decision.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/1/2020 8:04 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
> A friend of mine is building a Kitfox S7. It is 99 percent completed. He
> installed the com antenna in the vertical stabilizer which has steel tube and
> wood ribs and fabric cover which has been professionally painted. It is
> definitely not an ideal location. A concern that I have is that there is no
> ground plane. The antenna base is mounted to a wooden rib. All that is
> visible or accessible is the BNC connector and coax. He installed the antenna
> there because someone else did so on their plane and claimed that it worked.
> Questions:
> 1. Should he try transmitting on the com radio to see how well the antenna
> works and the range? Or could the radio be damaged by reflected power?
> 2. Can a ground plane be made by removing the outer insulation from the
> RG-58 coax and soldering two wires to the shield near the BNC connector?
> One of the two wires would droop down and forward, the other would
> droop down and aft.
> 3. Would a new antenna work if installed inside of the steel tube fuselage?
> 4. Is he better off installing a new antenna on the outside of the fuselage?
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
There are a lot of successful comm antenna installations within steel
tube fuselages. That might be the easiest path forward, since getting a
long enough ground plane 'whisker' aft of the tail mounted antenna might
be a problem.
On the other hand, I suspect that any modern comm radio will protect
itself from damage, so if he doesn't care about max range
transmission/reception, he could just try what he's got. Also, there are
lots of ways to make/add ground plane whiskers, even if he ended up with
something sub optimal and an asymmetrical coverage pattern. A couple of
fittings and adapters should give him a way to add whiskers without
cutting into the coax.
https://www.google.com/search?q=1/4+wave+antenna+ground+plane&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS843US843&sxsrf=ALeKk02Mio8mukK9rYmhrx1EsHM2zf4bpw:1593614869209&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia9L-BpqzqAhVDmeAKHVLdD7wQ_AUoAnoECA0QBA&biw=1920&bih=975
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
At 08:04 AM 7/1/2020, you wrote:
>
>A friend of mine is building a Kitfox S7. It is 99 percent completed. He
>installed the com antenna in the vertical stabilizer which has steel tube and
>wood ribs and fabric cover which has been professionally painted. It is
>definitely not an ideal location. A concern that I have is that there is no
>ground plane. The antenna base is mounted to a wooden rib. All that is
>visible or accessible is the BNC connector and coax. He installed the antenna
> there because someone else did so on their plane and claimed that it worked.
>Questions:
Hmmm . . . 'works' is unqualified . . . a wet string will
suffice for communications at some level . . .
>1. Should he try transmitting on the com radio to see how well the antenna
>works and the range?
That's the 'acid test' but first . . .
> Or could the radio be damaged by reflected power?
by all means he should MEASURE the SWR over the full
range of comm frequencies. 2:1 or better over 108 to 136
is usually possible with optimized vhf comm antennas.
3:1 is 'useable' but anything greater is cause for
re-evaluation of the installation.
>2. Can a ground plane be made by removing the outer insulation from the
>RG-58 coax and soldering two wires to the shield near the BNC connector?
>One of the two wires would droop down and forward, the other would
>droop down and aft.
what kind of antenna are we talking about? A simple whip?
how did it get attached to the airframe . . . is the coax
connector 'grounded' to the steel-tube? If so, nothing
else you can 'add' will make any difference. Proximity
to conductive structure is your driving condition and
will make for a really 'un-round' radiation pattern.
>3. Would a new antenna work if installed inside of the steel tube fuselage?
again, 'works' is non-qualified. Optimized antennas will
first accept the transmitted energy with minimum losses.
Second, it will have as close to a omni-directional
radiation pattern as practical. Researching the first
is easy . . . go measure it. The second is not so easy.
We used to run radiation pattern tests on antennas already
flying by putting test equipment in the airplane and
then flying a couple 360 circles about 50 miles out while
measuring the signal received on a calibrated receiver
in the airplane. Not easy/cheap to do.
Most departures from optimally mounted 1/4-wave
whips still 'work' . . . and as long as the pilot
is satisfied, details as to radiation patterns
don't mater much. SWR is easy to check and is
your first clue as to operational efficiency.
If an antenna does not readily accept transmitted
energy, radiation patterns are somewhat irrelevant.
>4. Is he better off installing a new antenna on the outside of the fuselage?
I wouldn't hold out for an antenna inside the
fuselage being markedly better than inside the
vertical fin . . . but that's a WAG. Instrumented
testing is the only way to make that call with
engineered confidence.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Yes, the antenna is a simple 1/4 wave whip. The antenna base is mounted in
a wood rib. The antenna base does not touch the steel tube airframe but is
3/4 inch away from a horizontal steel tube and about 6 inches away from a
vertical steel tube, not good I know.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497121#497121
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Teflon fuel line |
When I tested aluminum parts coming from the paint line at Boeing Auburn
all it took was an impedance tester. Alodining conducts electricity,
anodizing does not.
Rick
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 9:08 AM user9253 wrote:
>
> No danger from static for a couple of reasons.
> Fuel can only ignite if it is mixed with oxygen (air). Since the fuel
> line does not contain air, it can not ignite. And even if there is air i
n
> the fuel line, the ratio of fuel to air needs to be within a certain rang
e
> to ignite. The mixture will be too rich.
> Even if the fuel air ratio is ideal for combustion, there is still no
> need to worry. A metal airplane like your RV-9 will keep all parts of th
e
> fuel system at the same voltage. No sparks will jump. Some fuel systems
> use non-conductive rubber hose. In that case, the danger is not from
> static, but from mechanical damage or kinking.
> Anodized metal fittings might not be good conductors of electricity, bu
t
> will conduct enough to prevent high voltages from building up.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497080#497080
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
At 12:54 PM 7/1/2020, you wrote:
>
>Yes, the antenna is a simple 1/4 wave whip. The antenna base is mounted in
>a wood rib. The antenna base does not touch the steel tube airframe but is
>3/4 inch away from a horizontal steel tube and about 6 inches away from a
>vertical steel tube, not good I know.
3/4 inch away from an airframe conductor and NOT
electrically attached to it?
So it's all covered up and painted over?
I think an SWR check would be pointless but
perhaps interesting . . . on second thought
maybe important. Hard data on the down-side
of installing an antenna the wrong way is
a teaching moment opportunity.
He's between a rock and a hard place. If
there are builders flying this configuration
and reporting satisfactory performance, it's
going to be difficult/disappointing to wrap
his arms around the next stage. Plan B is an
antenna mounted to a tab which is electrically
common with structure. Try mounting it inside
the fuselage with widest practical separation
from structure/cables.
An SWR check is still a good idea . . . you may
find that proximity effects to the structure
have electrically lengthened the antenna . . .
SWR will minimize at some point below band-center.
If it's under 3:1 overall, leave it alone. If
over 3:1 at the lower edge, you can consider
trimming the tip off in little bits (1/4"
at a time) to bring antenna resonance up
a bit.
I'm noticing that handy little digital VHF/UHF
swr meters are sorta drying up on eBay, et. als.
This is one of my favorites
https://tinyurl.com/ybfyl9fo
it used to be offered by 20 or more suppliers,
could only find a handful of offers
Here's another which would suit our purposes
https://tinyurl.com/ydy327v7
It would be useful for you to track this
builder's experience . . . perhaps we could
craft a 'shop notes' article for archiving
on aeroelectric.com
If getting your own SWR meter is not practical,
I can loan you mine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Teflon fuel line |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
What kind of impedance tester? An ohm meter, or a 'megger'?
Even a resistance in the 10s of millions of ohms will bleed off a static
buildup. A regular ohm meter might well show an open circuit at those
levels.
I still think the terminations issue is moot with currently available
Teflon lined hose, since the hose is impregnated with carbon.
Charlie
On 7/1/2020 1:03 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
> When I tested aluminum parts coming from the paint line at Boeing
> Auburn all it took was an impedance tester. Alodining conducts
> electricity, anodizingdoes not.
>
> Rick
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 9:08 AM user9253 > wrote:
>
> >
>
> No danger from static for a couple of reasons.
> Fuel can only ignite if it is mixed with oxygen (air). Since the
> fuel line does not contain air, it can not ignite. And even if
> there is air in the fuel line, the ratio of fuel to air needs to
> be within a certain range to ignite. The mixture will be too rich.
> Even if the fuel air ratio is ideal for combustion, there is
> still no need to worry. A metal airplane like your RV-9 will keep
> all parts of the fuel system at the same voltage. No sparks will
> jump. Some fuel systems use non-conductive rubber hose. In that
> case, the danger is not from static, but from mechanical damage or
> kinking.
> Anodized metal fittings might not be good conductors of
> electricity, but will conduct enough to prevent high voltages from
> building up.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diodes - Ground Pwr/Battery Master Contactors |
| From: | "Drum" <dgrinalds(at)gmail.com> |
Thank you!
--------
Drum
RV8 - Working on Fuselage/Canopy
Southport, CT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497130#497130
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diodes - Ground Pwr/Battery Master Contactors |
| From: | "Drum" <dgrinalds(at)gmail.com> |
Thank you!
--------
Drum
RV8 - Working on Fuselage/Canopy
Southport, CT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497129#497129
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Teflon fuel line |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Yes, the antenna base is very close to an airframe steel tube but not attached
electrically or physically. The base of the antenna is mounted to a wood rib.
The builder does not know much about electricity or antennas.
And yes, the vertical stabilizer is all covered and painted. The builder will
not
want to tear the airplane apart to get that antenna out.
I had forgotten about that Red Dot SWR meter that I had purchased several
years ago and only used once. I found it in my workshop and discovered that
all 3 AAA batteries had leaked. Have you checked your SWR batteries lately?
Luckily the battery holder is mounted with double sided foam tape which
protected the circuit board. I cleaned out the corrosion and installed new
batteries. Luckily the SWR meter still works. I will test my friend's antenna
SWR whenever he gets the RG-58 terminated.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497133#497133
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
| From: | "Drum" <dgrinalds(at)gmail.com> |
Hi - I'm putting together a ground pwr jack for my RV-8. It's easier for me to
connect two contactors using bus bar stock instead of AWG 4 wire. Would 0.5"x.025
brass bus bar stock on a 6' run be acceptable? Can't find a table of brass
bus bar loading data.
Thanks in advance.
Warm regards,
Drum
--------
Drum
RV8 - Working on Fuselage/Canopy
Southport, CT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497139#497139
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
Drum,
This would be a good time to think about how you are going to use your
ground power jack, because that will inform how much current needs to flow
through the jack, for how long, and will let you calculate the heat which
would be generated. For instance, if you intend to use the jack to power
the EFIS while you program it, update the database, etc, then the current
is negligible. If you are going to hook up a battery maintainer, again, the
current is negligible. If you are going to use it to jump start the
airplane with a dead battery then you need to shove a lot of current, which
warrants a fat wire or bus bar, but maybe removing the battery and charging
it and then reinstalling it would be preferable. Even in this case, you
have a lot of current but (hopefully) for a short time so not much heat.
-- Art Z.
On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:23 AM Drum wrote:
>
> Hi - I'm putting together a ground pwr jack for my RV-8. It's easier for
> me to connect two contactors using bus bar stock instead of AWG 4 wire.
> Would 0.5"x.025 brass bus bar stock on a 6' run be acceptable? Can't find
> a table of brass bus bar loading data.
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what
am I? If not now, when?*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
Art makes a good point.
But directly to your question, #4 wire area is 0.03268...sq in. .5 x .025
0.0125 sq in. Brass conductivity is quite a bit worse than copper. So you'd
have roughly 1/3 the area, and brass has 28% of the conductivity of copper,
if the area was the same.
https://www.bluesea.com/resources/108/Electrical_Conductivity_of_Materials#:~:text=Brass%20is%20only%2028%25%20as,7%25%20as%20conductive%20as%20copper!&text=The%20higher%20the%20%25%20IACS%2C%20the,C%20(68%C2%B0F).
Offsetting that is the very short distance for a bus bar (minimal total
resistance).
However, a thickness of 0.065" would give you the same area, and a piece of
3/8" copper tubing (available at your local hardware store), when
flattened, would give you a 0.54" x 0.095" bar.
Charlie
On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:40 AM Art Zemon wrote:
> Drum,
>
> This would be a good time to think about how you are going to use your
> ground power jack, because that will inform how much current needs to flow
> through the jack, for how long, and will let you calculate the heat which
> would be generated. For instance, if you intend to use the jack to power
> the EFIS while you program it, update the database, etc, then the current
> is negligible. If you are going to hook up a battery maintainer, again, the
> current is negligible. If you are going to use it to jump start the
> airplane with a dead battery then you need to shove a lot of current, which
> warrants a fat wire or bus bar, but maybe removing the battery and charging
> it and then reinstalling it would be preferable. Even in this case, you
> have a lot of current but (hopefully) for a short time so not much heat.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:23 AM Drum wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi - I'm putting together a ground pwr jack for my RV-8. It's easier for
>> me to connect two contactors using bus bar stock instead of AWG 4 wire.
>> Would 0.5"x.025 brass bus bar stock on a 6' run be acceptable? Can't find
>> a table of brass bus bar loading data.
>>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
> *If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what
> am I? If not now, when?*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
There are a couple more offsetting features of the bus bar. First, it is
mounted away from everything else, so that air can circulate freely around
it, helping dissipate heat. Second, it is an uninsulated piece of metal. It
can get hot without damaging anything, in particular, it can get hot
without melting insulation.
This is kind of a fun thought experiment but, unless you are going to crank
and crank and crank your engine through that ground power jack and a set of
jumper cables, I kind of doubt that the choice of a bus bar vs a #4 cable
or even vs a piece of AWG 18 wire will make any practical difference.
-- Art Z.
On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 8:42 AM Charlie England wrote:
> Art makes a good point.
> But directly to your question, #4 wire area is 0.03268...sq in. .5 x .025
> 0.0125 sq in. Brass conductivity is quite a bit worse than copper. So you'd
> have roughly 1/3 the area, and brass has 28% of the conductivity of copper,
> if the area was the same.
>
> https://www.bluesea.com/resources/108/Electrical_Conductivity_of_Materials#:~:text=Brass%20is%20only%2028%25%20as,7%25%20as%20conductive%20as%20copper!&text=The%20higher%20the%20%25%20IACS%2C%20the,C%20(68%C2%B0F).
>
> Offsetting that is the very short distance for a bus bar (minimal total
> resistance).
>
> However, a thickness of 0.065" would give you the same area, and a piece
> of 3/8" copper tubing (available at your local hardware store), when
> flattened, would give you a 0.54" x 0.095" bar.
>
> Charlie
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:40 AM Art Zemon wrote:
>
>> Drum,
>>
>> This would be a good time to think about how you are going to use your
>> ground power jack, because that will inform how much current needs to flow
>> through the jack, for how long, and will let you calculate the heat which
>> would be generated. For instance, if you intend to use the jack to power
>> the EFIS while you program it, update the database, etc, then the current
>> is negligible. If you are going to hook up a battery maintainer, again, the
>> current is negligible. If you are going to use it to jump start the
>> airplane with a dead battery then you need to shove a lot of current, which
>> warrants a fat wire or bus bar, but maybe removing the battery and charging
>> it and then reinstalling it would be preferable. Even in this case, you
>> have a lot of current but (hopefully) for a short time so not much heat.
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:23 AM Drum wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi - I'm putting together a ground pwr jack for my RV-8. It's easier
>>> for me to connect two contactors using bus bar stock instead of AWG 4
>>> wire. Would 0.5"x.025 brass bus bar stock on a 6' run be acceptable?
>>> Can't find a table of brass bus bar loading data.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>> *If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself,
>> what am I? If not now, when?*
>>
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what
am I? If not now, when?*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
>However, a thickness of 0.065" would give you the same area, and a
>piece of 3/8" copper tubing (available at your local hardware
>store), when flattened, would give you a 0.54" x 0.095" bar.
Art and Charlie make excellent points. Another
possibility is to fabricate a 4AWG welding
cable jumper that's a 'bit too long' so that
it simply makes a graceful curve between the
studs.
The copper tube idea has been floated and
incorporated in projects here on the list
for decades. Copper is the bus bar material
of choice and you only need to flatten the ends
to facilitate joining at the studs. This
technique calls for attention to keeping
the two flats planar to each other.
My personal choice would be the welding
cable jumper. Easy to build, soft and
easy to work with. Does not conduct
mechanical forces between the studs.
I'm recalling an invitation I received from
an RV builder in Wichita to visit his project
in process on local airport. We had some
good discussion about various chapters of
his planning. While looking over stuff fire-wall-
forward, I noticed that he had grounded battery(-)
to the fire-wall sheet with a little chunk of aluminum
angle.
I brought this to his attention and suggested
that the thin stainless was a poor conductor
and that forcing it to carry battery recharge
and starter cranking currents offer potential
for serious ground-loop effects. But more important,
the battery mass was getting tied to airframe
by non-structural battery terminal by way
of a non-ferrous hunk of metal that was almost
guaranteed to be his first electrical system
failure.
I think he was rather fond of his short-n-
simple grounding idea . . . he got a bit incensed
but it was about time for me to depart anyhow.
Never did hear any follow-up on the project.
But it's an experience that reminds me to
ponder system rigidity between significant
chunks of hardware when making hard connection
to studs designed for terminating relatively
soft wires.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/2/2020 9:37 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> However, a thickness of 0.065" would give you the same area, and a
>> piece of 3/8" copper tubing (available at your local hardware store),
>> when flattened, would give you a 0.54" x 0.095" bar.
>
> Art and Charlie make excellent points. Another
> possibility is to fabricate a 4AWG welding
> cable jumper that's a 'bit too long' so that
> it simply makes a graceful curve between the
> studs.
>
> The copper tube idea has been floated and
> incorporated in projects here on the list
> for decades. Copper is the bus bar material
> of choice and you only need to flatten the ends
> to facilitate joining at the studs. This
> technique calls for attention to keeping
> the two flats planar to each other.
>
> My personal choice would be the welding
> cable jumper. Easy to build, soft and
> easy to work with. Does not conduct
> mechanical forces between the studs.
>
> I'm recalling an invitation I received from
> an RV builder in Wichita to visit his project
> in process on local airport. We had some
> good discussion about various chapters of
> his planning. While looking over stuff fire-wall-
> forward, I noticed that he had grounded battery(-)
> to the fire-wall sheet with a little chunk of aluminum
> angle.
>
> I brought this to his attention and suggested
> that the thin stainless was a poor conductor
> and that forcing it to carry battery recharge
> and starter cranking currents offer potential
> for serious ground-loop effects. But more important,
> the battery mass was getting tied to airframe
> by non-structural battery terminal by way
> of a non-ferrous hunk of metal that was almost
> guaranteed to be his first electrical system
> failure.
>
> I think he was rather fond of his short-n-
> simple grounding idea . . . he got a bit incensed
> but it was about time for me to depart anyhow.
> Never did hear any follow-up on the project.
> But it's an experience that reminds me to
> ponder system rigidity between significant
> chunks of hardware when making hard connection
> to studs designed for terminating relatively
> soft wires.
>
> Bob . . .
>
I do try to put some variation of an 'S' curve in the flattened copper
tubing, when I use that trick. Helps relieve flex stress in one
direction, anyway...
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Hall Effect current sensor and Rotax Alternator |
I was wondering what locations might be possible for installing a hall
effect current sensor on a Z-16 system. Will one or both yellow wires work??
Or, am I limited to the battery lead?
Thanks
Chris
Just Highlander
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect current sensor and Rotax Alternator |
At 01:22 PM 7/2/2020, you wrote:
>I was wondering what locations might be possible for installing a
>hall effect current sensor on a Z-16 system. Will one or both yellow
>wires work?? Or, am I limited to the battery lead?
>Thanks
>Chris
>Just Highlander
the yellow wires carry AC current at values
related to but different from the DC output
of the rectifier regulator. If you're wishing to
incorporate the legacy DC hall sensor common to
virtually all EFIS systems, the sensor goes in
the BAT leads of the rectifier regulator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect current sensor and Rotax Alternator |
At 01:22 PM 7/2/2020, you wrote:
>I was wondering what locations might be possible for installing a
>hall effect current sensor on a Z-16 system. Will one or both yellow
>wires work?? Or, am I limited to the battery lead?
>Thanks
>Chris
>Just Highlander
See attached
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
| From: | Dick Tasker <dick(at)thetaskerfamily.com> |
Do you really mean 6 ft.? Or is it a typo (6') and should have been 6"?
Dick Tasker
Drum wrote:
>
> Hi - I'm putting together a ground pwr jack for my RV-8. It's easier for me
to connect two contactors using bus bar stock instead of AWG 4 wire. Would 0.5"x.025
brass bus bar stock on a 6' run be acceptable? Can't find a table of
brass bus bar loading data.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Drum
>
> --------
> Drum
> RV8 - Working on Fuselage/Canopy
> Southport, CT
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497139#497139
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect current sensor and Rotax Alternator |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The yellow wires carry AC current from the Rotax dynamo
Run the B & R direct current wires from the Ducati regulator through the hall effect
sensor.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497153#497153
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andreaarea" <quzhouhailu123(at)gmail.com> |
The principle of customer-oriented, establish and improve the modern enterprise
system and improve the effective total quality management system and reflect
the rapid and thoughtful after-sales service system.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497156#497156
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
Here is my calculation to avoid a situation when the AVIONICS ESS CB trips before
the equipment on this bus does. Taking care about the AVIONX ESS BUS CB in
series:
The total PEAK DRAW on the AVIONX BUS is 9.04 Amps.
The biggest Delta PEAK DRAW vs CB protection is on the GTN COM connector: 5.98
Amp
When I sum up the Total BUS Peak Draw (9.04A) + Top Delta Peak of the GTN COM connection
(assume this connection is shorted): TOTAL PEAK with fault on the GTN
COM side equals 15.02 Amp
Adding 20% reserve - I would need 18.8 Amp minimum CB rating for the AVIONX ESS
bus. Thus a 20Amp CB is enough.
Is my approach correct?
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497159#497159
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/avionx_ess_bus_cb_117.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
At 07:16 AM 7/4/2020, you wrote:
>
>Here is my calculation to avoid a situation when the AVIONICS ESS CB
>trips before the equipment on this bus does. Taking care about the
>AVIONX ESS BUS CB in series:
>
>The total PEAK DRAW on the AVIONX BUS is 9.04 Amps.
>
>The biggest Delta PEAK DRAW vs CB protection is on the GTN COM
>connector: 5.98 Amp
>
>When I sum up the Total BUS Peak Draw (9.04A) + Top Delta Peak of
>the GTN COM connection (assume this connection is shorted): TOTAL
>PEAK with fault on the GTN COM side equals 15.02 Amp
>
>Adding 20% reserve - I would need 18.8 Amp minimum CB rating for the
>AVIONX ESS bus. Thus a 20Amp CB is enough.
>
>Is my approach correct?
Was unable to open your .jpg . . . "file not found"
you have circuit breakers in your distribution
bus feeders?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimum length of fusible link wire segment |
Thanks for this, Bob. That such a little blob of solder can have such a big
effect is fascinating.
Pat
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:06 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:18 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
>
> Bob, in a recent post you state that there is a 9-inch rule of
> thumb minimum length for fusible link wire segments. Could you
> explain the physics behind that, please?
>
> Pat
>
>
> Sorry to take so long on this . . . it took a few
> miles of 'asphalt engineering' to figure out how best
> to explain it. I THINK I've got a way . . . let's
> give it a try . . .
>
> Fusible link performance, indeed performance of any
> fusible circuit protective device is tightly bound
> to the fact that most electrical conductors have
> a positive temperature coefficient of resistance.
> This means, it's resistance rises with temperature
> of the conductor.
>
> The rate of temperature rises is a
> function of power (watts) dissipated in the
> conductor mass which is the product of current
> (amps) times resistance (ohms). Consider a piece
> of wire, any gage, hanging out in space with some
> current flowing through it.
>
> Here's a 22AWG wire that has been happily
> carrying 20A for some time. Note that I
> attached a thermocouple to the sample wire
> out in the middle of the rather significant
> free span. Suppose I conducted this experiment
> with, say a 1" piece of wire? How might we
> guess that center-span's rate-of-rise would
> differ for the two cases?
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/22AWG_20A.pdf
>
> It's intuitive that heat generated in the
> wire is conducted to the ends. Rate of rise
> and temp equilibrium is influenced by sinking
> effects of the terminals and radiation into
> surrounding air. It's easy to deduce that a
> short piece of wire is more resistant to
> fusing than a longer one.
>
> As a practical matter, the opening of an
> electrically fusible segment tends to 'center up'
> on the span. This is seen in the pictures of fuses
> attached. As temperature begins to rise, heat
> is generated all across the span and conducted
> in both directions from any single point. The
> CENTER of the span is least able to reject heat
> to it's adjacent mass . . . it's getting warmed
> up from both directions and also rising the fastest
> due to effects of positive temperature coefficient.
>
> Rising resistance increases electrical power dissipated
> at that location more rapidly than anywhere else along
> the span. Hence the temperature rise is regenerative
> . . . the hotter it gets, the faster it warms up.
>
> How long does this take? Complex question depending
> on a constellation of conditions. Fuse and
> breaker manufacturers work diligently to achieve
> predictable performance in their products.
>
> Here's a well written piece that explains the
> thermal fiddling necessary to achieve predictable
> i.e. fast versus slow blowing characteristic in fuses.
> How about that little fly-spec of heat sink material
> in the slow blo cartridge fuse?
>
> https://tinyurl.com/ybkndmrc
>
> It easy to see that control of the environment
> surrounding the fusible event is critical.
>
> A fusible link is in the 'HULK' family
> of protective devices. Like its cousins,
> the ANL, MANL and similar 'current limiters',
> none are suited to the protection of the
> more pedestrian appliance feeders. The
> fusible link is SLOW and intended to clear
> major faults (HUNDREDS+ AMPS) in the system
> bus structure while maintaining a robust
> indifference to rather severe transient overload.
>
> Unlike our little plastic ATC friends that
> can be 'hammered' into lower operating
> currents by repeated excursions close to
> but still short of their ratings.
>
> Getting back to your question: Would a 6"
> piece of fusible link fail to function?
> How about a 1" piece? Probably not. They're
> still the weakest link in the faulted pathway.
>
> I am GUESSING that 9" figure is probably some
> fusible link designer's 'happy place' for repeating
> the in-service design goals he was working with.
> Or perhaps it's a legacy hand-over from an automotive
> industry specification.
>
> In any case, wanting to shorten 'em up a tad is
> not seriously significant to our task. My own
> 'happy place' would be 6". Hope this helps . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Minimum length of fusible link wire segment |
At 12:48 PM 7/4/2020, you wrote:
>Thanks for this, Bob. That such a little blob of solder can have
>such a big effect is fascinating.
>Pat
Yeah . . . we don't know how 'big' big is but
intuitively we know that the effect is not
zero.
Similarly, the term SLOW BLOW for describing
fuse behavior is also non-quantified. Generally
speaking, we understand that selecting
a 'slow blow' version of the same kind of
fuse is something to try if we think that
we're seeing nuisance trips due to momentary
transients. Those transients may not be
very intense or long . . . perhaps just
repetitive. We studied the effects of
thermal 'hammering' in the 811HB
incident.
There are literally hundreds of variation
on the details of fuse behaviors. Our
favorite ATC plastics are fairly robust and
when used in automobiles, they are generally
waaayyy bigger than the normal current flow
in the circuit . . . perhaps 2 to 5x the
the normal current flow.
Check out the selection guide chart on
page 8 of this document:
https://tinyurl.com/ydfptnpu
This is a tiny fraction of functionality
to be considered when choosing circuit
protection TIGHTLY tailored to an
application.
Fuses in our cars and houses are NOT
tightly tailored to any application
beyond the protection of wires. For
low risk, convenient operation devoid
of nuisance trips we're encouraged to
take a similar approach to sizing wire
and circuit protection in our airplanes.
While boring holes in the sky, concerns
for keeping power on the far end of
your appliance feeders should occupy
no more of your thoughts than the size
of your prop bolts!
It would be interesting to see the I(squared)R
plots for that fuse with and without the
little glob in the middle. Still more interesting
to see the system requirements that were
satisfied by that final fuse design!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 07:16 AM 7/4/2020, you wrote:
>
> >
> > Here is my calculation to avoid a situation when the AVIONICS ESS CB trips
before the equipment on this bus does. Taking care about the AVIONX ESS BUS CB
in series:
> >
> > The total PEAK DRAW on the AVIONX BUS is 9.04 Amps.
> >
> > The biggest Delta PEAK DRAW vs CB protection is on the GTN COM connector:
5.98 Amp
> >
> > When I sum up the Total BUS Peak Draw (9.04A) + Top Delta Peak of the GTN
COM connection (assume this connection is shorted): TOTAL PEAK with fault on the
GTN COM side equals 15.02 Amp
> >
> > Adding 20% reserve - I would need 18.8 Amp minimum CB rating for the AVIONX
ESS bus. Thus a 20Amp CB is enough.
> >
> > Is my approach correct?
>
> Was unable to open your .jpg . . . "file not found"
>
> you have circuit breakers in your distribution
> bus feeders?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Affirm, all proection on the Avionics Buses are circuit breakers.
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497164#497164
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
> >
> > > When I sum up the Total BUS Peak Draw (9.04A) + Top Delta Peak
> of the GTN COM connection (assume this connection is shorted):
> TOTAL PEAK with fault on the GTN COM side equals 15.02 Amp
> > >
> > > Adding 20% reserve - I would need 18.8 Amp minimum CB rating
> for the AVIONX ESS bus. Thus a 20Amp CB is enough.
> > >
> > > Is my approach correct?
I'm talking about the 20A cb on the bus feeder?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
> > >
> > > > When I sum up the Total BUS Peak Draw (9.04A) + Top Delta Peak of the
GTN COM connection (assume this connection is shorted): TOTAL PEAK with fault
on the GTN COM side equals 15.02 Amp
> > > >
> > > > Adding 20% reserve - I would need 18.8 Amp minimum CB rating for the
AVIONX ESS bus. Thus a 20Amp CB is enough.
> > > >
> > > > Is my approach correct?
>
> I'm talking about the 20A cb on the bus feeder?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Yes, it's a Circuit Breaker.
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497172#497172
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
| From: | "Drum" <dgrinalds(at)gmail.com> |
Thank you for your help. I will look for the welding cable jumper. My installation
is aft. Turns out on the RV8, the battery tray has 4 nut plate attachment
points for the contractors to sit. Forward, those would be the battery master
and starter contactors but aft I am planning on using the locations for the
battery master and ground power contactors.
Of course, since the two contactors are connected to the same rigid surface, there
might not be so many large movements relative to one another, but there is
enough movement to eventually create issues.
My two objectives here are to make sure there is not interference between wiring
of battery and ground power and the elevator bellcrank/pitch servo which are
located just aft of the battery in the RV8. Secondly, want to make it straightforward
to disconnect the wiring from the battery to allow removal of the aft
baggage floor permitting access to this area.
I will send pictures when I get the opportunity.
Thanks,
Drum
--------
Drum
RV8 - Working on Fuselage/Canopy
Southport, CT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497173#497173
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
>
> >
> > I'm talking about the 20A cb on the bus feeder?
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
>Yes, it's a Circuit Breaker.
Could you give me that link to your current
wiring diagram again?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
At 10:42 AM 7/5/2020, you wrote:
>
>Thank you for your help. I will look for the welding cable
>jumper. My installation is aft. Turns out on the RV8, the battery
>tray has 4 nut plate attachment points for the contractors to
>sit. Forward, those would be the battery master and starter
>contactors but aft I am planning on using the locations for the
>battery master and ground power contactors.
>
>Of course, since the two contactors are connected to the same rigid
>surface, there might not be so many large movements relative to one
>another, but there is enough movement to eventually create issues.
>
>My two objectives here are to make sure there is not interference
>between wiring of battery and ground power and the elevator
>bellcrank/pitch servo which are located just aft of the battery in
>the RV8. Secondly, want to make it straightforward to disconnect the
>wiring from the battery to allow removal of the aft baggage floor
>permitting access to this area.
>
>I will send pictures when I get the opportunity.
great! thanks.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > > I'm talking about the 20A cb on the bus feeder?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > Yes, it's a Circuit Breaker.
> >
>
> Could you give me that link to your current
> wiring diagram again?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Of course, here it is:
https://i.ibb.co/Z67GnDy/Diagram-OM-ELA-Igor-v-035.jpg
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497179#497179
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
>
>Of course, here it is:
>
>https://i.ibb.co/Z67GnDy/Diagram-OM-ELA-Igor-v-035.jpg
>
>--------
>Igor
>
>RV10 in progress
Okay . . .
Avionics master switches were not birthed
out of good physics in the first place.
Their value diminished to zero about 1975
as the acceptance of DO160 qualification
really took roots.
Are there ANY avionics manufacturers
who recommend 'protecting' their products
from the ordinary vagaries of electrical
system excursions by means of special
consideration for control of their energy
sources?
The relay, switch and wiring become single
points of failure for all items on the
'protected' bus. Recommend that the breakers
on these switched buses be moved to their
respective un-switched buses thus restoring
individual circuit integrity.
Eliminate the breaker in the diode feeder
to the e-bus . . . that's your normal feed
path. Any fault that would open that breaker
puts you in greater peril than risks for
burning that path's feeders. It's an extra
gizmo with associated terminals/screws that
adds no value.
Your e-bus contactor becomes an alternate
feed path needed in case the main bus is
shut down due to loss of main alternator.
Recommend you take the aux alternator
b-lead directly to battery via fusible
link. This makes the AUX alternator
optionally available to the main bus
through one contactor.
Recommend you replace the ANL in the
main alternator b-lead with a fusible
link. Easier, lighter, simpler and just
as reliable for the intended task of
fending off an exceedingly unlikely
failure.
Recommend losing the MOV . . . diode
on the starter contactor takes care
of the coil collapse transient.
Add diodes to all other contactors/relays
as needed.
Battery current monitoring? How is this
useful in flight?
How much current does the electronic
ignition draw when aircraft is parked?
10A protection? Why not run it from
the e-bus? That's a triple-source,
double fed bus . . . it's not going
dark in your lifetime.
You're getting close . . . just a
touch of excess hardware some of which
negates the integrity of a double-fed
bus-structure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect current sensor and Rotax Alternator |
Thanks Joe/Bob! I was thinking that was the case and needed the extra
confirmation.
-Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of user9253
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 10:22 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hall Effect current sensor and Rotax
Alternator
The yellow wires carry AC current from the Rotax dynamo Run the B & R direct
current wires from the Ducati regulator through the hall effect sensor.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497153#497153
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bus Bar Equivalent AWG |
| From: | "Hummer H2" <jicadam775(at)mailres.net> |
Yea these guys are good. Cuz that situation is hard, I am glad if they could help
you,
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497188#497188
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
| From: | "Hummer H2" <jicadam775(at)mailres.net> |
And what will be the bonus from this? Is it necessary?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497189#497189
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
| From: | "Faraon17" <utj28217(at)bcaoo.com> |
better to do [Laughing]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497190#497190
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Premature EarthX death? |
| From: | "Faraon17" <utj28217(at)bcaoo.com> |
I had a similar situation, I somehow succeeded, but patted the nevis :x
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497191#497191
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Position indicator needed |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group. I need a display for Actuonix P version of P16. Actuator has a 5,800
ohm potentiometer, it ranges from 0 to 5,800 when running actuator in and out.
We tried Actuonix display but it has a internal wiring flaw the way they designed
circuit around a TI LM394 IC. They sent a replacement and it has same flaw.
The way they want it wired is to supply 12 + and (-)volts to the actuator pot
and the wiper is pulling voltage off it (voltage divider). Thx. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497197#497197
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
At 05:26 PM 7/7/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group. I need a display for Actuonix P version of P16. Actuator
>has a 5,800 ohm potentiometer, it ranges from 0 to 5,800 when
>running actuator in and out. We tried Actuonix display but it has a
>internal wiring flaw the way they designed circuit around a TI LM394
>IC. They sent a replacement and it has same flaw. The way they want
>it wired is to supply 12 + and (-)volts to the actuator pot and the
>wiper is pulling voltage off it (voltage divider). Thx. Ron P.
Do you have a schematic of the acutuonix system?
Does the pot in the actuator have 2 or 3 wires
coming out? Is the display bar graph, analog,
lcd, . . . . ?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/7/2020 5:26 PM, rparigoris wrote:
>
> Hi Group. I need a display for Actuonix P version of P16. Actuator has a 5,800
ohm potentiometer, it ranges from 0 to 5,800 when running actuator in and out.
We tried Actuonix display but it has a internal wiring flaw the way they designed
circuit around a TI LM394 IC. They sent a replacement and it has same flaw.
The way they want it wired is to supply 12 + and (-)volts to the actuator
pot and the wiper is pulling voltage off it (voltage divider). Thx. Ron P.
>
Hi Ron,
Are you sure you have that IC # correct? The 394 is a matched pair of
NPN transistors in one case. Not sure why you'd need that for a position
indicator.
Could it be an LM3914? The 3914 is a 10 segment LED driver/level
indicator (likely what you want). The 3914 will work as a voltmeter,
which is what you want to display the varying voltage from the position
pot. Have you measured the wiper voltage with a regular voltmeter as you
move the actuator? If the voltage is 'stuck' at 12V, odds are that the
ground end of the potentiometer isn't grounded. This assumes that the
potentiometer is actually moving with the actuator.
If you have a variable power supply, you can check the other end of the
system by feeding a varying voltage into the indicator's sense input.
Even a string of 1.5V batteries would give you stepped voltages to feed
the indicator's input.
Charlie
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Bob
Sorry no schematic just a data sheet:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/actuonix/Actuonix+Position+Indicator+Datasheet.pdf
It's a 3 wire LED Bar Graph with 10 LEDs.
The 5,800ohm pot gets wired as a voltage divider and the wiper goes into the red
of the indicator. My build partner is a EE and say he can't see how their unit
can possibly work.
Here's what Wayne wrote to company:
I opened up the first indicator that failed and found a burned-out trace going
to the adjustment pot. Upon drawing out the circuit I found the two ends of the
adjustment pot wired directly to +12 and ground, the wiper goes to pin 5 (signal
in). The wiper of the pot in the actuator also goes to pin five with the
ends wired to +12 and ground (Feedback potentiometer negative reference rail
and Feedback potentiometer positive reference rail according to P16 instruction
manual). With this configuration, it is easy to see a short circuit occurring
when the actuator is near or at its limit (+12 or GND) and the adjustment
pot is turned to near the opposite rail. There is no protection ie. limiting resistors,
off the ends of the indicator pot to limit current in this condition.
Likewise, with the indicator pot acting as the voltage divider for signal-in,
I could not measure any variation in signal-in voltage even with as little
as 200 ohms at the actuator pot wiper. I'd be interested to know if anyone else
has gotten this to work without modification, if so, can you provide details?
Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked with Dynon
and our D10A can not take an input and display.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497199#497199
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/7/2020 6:49 PM, rparigoris wrote:
om>
>
> Hi Bob
> Sorry no schematic just a data sheet:
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/actuonix/Actuonix+Position+Indicator+Datasheet.p
df
> It's a 3 wire LED Bar Graph with 10 LEDs.
> The 5,800ohm pot gets wired as a voltage divider and the wiper goes into
the red of the indicator. My build partner is a EE and say he can't see how
their unit can possibly work.
> Here's what Wayne wrote to company:
> I opened up the first indicator that failed and found a burned-out trace
going to the adjustment pot. Upon drawing out the circuit I found the two
ends of the adjustment pot wired directly to +12 and ground, the wiper goes
to pin 5 (signal in). The wiper of the pot in the actuator also goes to p
in five with the ends wired to +12 and ground (Feedback potentiometer negat
ive reference rail and Feedback potentiometer positive reference rail accor
ding to P16 instruction manual). With this configuration, it is easy to se
e a short circuit occurring when the actuator is near or at its limit (+12
or GND) and the adjustment pot is turned to near the opposite rail. There i
s no protection ie. limiting resistors, off the ends of the indicator pot t
o limit current in this condition. Likewise, with the indicator pot acting
as the voltage divider for signal-in, I could not measure any variation in
signal-in voltage even with as little as 200 ohms at the actuator pot wipe
r. I'd be inter!
> ested to know if anyone else has gotten this to work without modificati
on, if so, can you provide details?
>
> Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked with
Dynon and our D10A can not take an input and display.
> Ron P.
Circuit description for the likely IC being uses is here:
https://components101.com/ics/lm3914-dot-bar-display-driver
From the text, below the circuit demo animation:
Simply power the IC using the V+ and V- and the analog signal voltage is
given to pin 5. Here we have used 9V to power the IC to monitor an
analogy voltage of 0-5V.=C2- Always note that the voltage used to power t
he
IC (here 9V) should be at least 1.5V more that the monitoring
voltage(here 5V).
Note that max input voltage should always be at least 1.5V lower than
supply voltage.
If you search for 'LM3914 level meter', you should find dozens of hits
on both ebay and Amazon, in addition to other vendors.
Hope that helps,
Charlie
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Charlie
Yes it's a LM3914 not LM394, dumb thumb. Here's my partner Wayne that will comment:
Hi Charlie, Thanks for the feedback and I agree with you the 3914 should be operating
as a voltmeter. The pot in the actuator is fine, the problem is that Actuonix
didn't follow proper design (in my opinion) and wired an "adjustment"
pot into the circuit alongside the 3914 whereby its directly across +12 and ground.
Its wiper is in parallel with pin 5 (signal input) AND the wiper from the
actuator pot. I think you can figure out what happens when one pot is adjusted
towards ground and the other (like the actuator) starts heading towards +12.
Full battery short circuit taking out traces on the LM3914 circuit board.
Difficult to fix because critical traces are all under the DIP IC, we're just
looking for a mounted 3914 without this flaw, I suspect a voltage following op
amp would serve as a trim on pin 5 so as to adjust full scale when the actuator
is extended.
Thanks, Wayne
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497202#497202
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
| From: | Dick Tasker <dick(at)thetaskerfamily.com> |
Although it is a little pricey nowadays, this should work for what you want to do: http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html
Otherwise, Charlie is correct about the LM3914. If your friend is an EE he should
be easily able to use it to design what you want to do. That is what is in
the Ray Allen indicator.
I have older versions of their indicators in my plane. I traced the schematic of
their unit and have it if you want a copy. They don't have the problem your
friend discovered in the unit you have
from Actuonix.
Dick Tasker
rparigoris wrote:
>
> Hi Bob
> Sorry no schematic just a data sheet:
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/actuonix/Actuonix+Position+Indicator+Datasheet.pdf
> It's a 3 wire LED Bar Graph with 10 LEDs.
> The 5,800ohm pot gets wired as a voltage divider and the wiper goes into the
red of the indicator. My build partner is a EE and say he can't see how their
unit can possibly work.
> Here's what Wayne wrote to company:
> I opened up the first indicator that failed and found a burned-out trace going
to the adjustment pot. Upon drawing out the circuit I found the two ends of
the adjustment pot wired directly to +12 and ground, the wiper goes to pin 5
(signal in). The wiper of the pot in the actuator also goes to pin five with
the ends wired to +12 and ground (Feedback potentiometer negative reference rail
and Feedback potentiometer positive reference rail according to P16 instruction
manual). With this configuration, it is easy to see a short circuit occurring
when the actuator is near or at its limit (+12 or GND) and the adjustment
pot is turned to near the opposite rail. There is no protection ie. limiting
resistors, off the ends of the indicator pot to limit current in this condition.
Likewise, with the indicator pot acting as the voltage divider for signal-in,
I could not measure any variation in signal-in voltage even with as little
as 200 ohms at the actuator pot wiper. I'd be inter!
> ested to know if anyone else has gotten this to work without modification,
if so, can you provide details?
>
> Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked with Dynon
and our D10A can not take an input and display.
> Ron P.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497199#497199
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
At 06:49 PM 7/7/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob
>Sorry no schematic just a data sheet:
>https://s3.amazonaws.com/actuonix/Actuonix+Position+Indicator+Datasheet.pdf
>It's a 3 wire LED Bar Graph with 10 LEDs.
>The 5,800ohm pot gets wired as a voltage divider and the wiper goes
>into the red of the indicator. My build partner is a EE and say he
>can't see how their unit can possibly work.
>Here's what Wayne wrote to company:
>I opened up the first indicator that failed and found a burned-out
>trace going to the adjustment pot. Upon drawing out the circuit I
>found the two ends of the adjustment pot wired directly to +12 and
>ground, the wiper goes to pin 5 (signal in). The wiper of the pot
>in the actuator also goes to pin five with the ends wired to +12 and
>ground (Feedback potentiometer negative reference rail and Feedback
>potentiometer positive reference rail according to P16 instruction
>manual). With this configuration, it is easy to see a short circuit
>occurring when the actuator is near or at its limit (+12 or GND) and
>the adjustment pot is turned to near the opposite rail. There is no
>protection ie. limiting resistors, off the ends of the indicator pot
>to limit current in this condition. Likewise, with the indicator
>pot acting as the voltage divider for signal-in, I could not measure
>any variation in signal-in voltage even with as little as 200 ohms
>at the actuator pot wiper. I'd be interested to know if anyone else
>has gotten this to work without modification, if so, can you provide details?
>
>Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked
>with Dynon and our D10A can not take an input and display.
>Ron P.
That drawing is a classic example of how NOT
to sell a DIY wiring job . . . further, from
what I am able to glean from the writer's narrative,
it seems that the products in hand have
manufacturing/design defects on some level.
Here's what an exemplar wiring diagram MIGHT
look like for that system
https://tinyurl.com/y8ywpf78
It could not be simpler but perhaps unnecessarily
complicated due to defects in hardware?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
>
>Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked
>with Dynon and our D10A can not take an input and display.
>Ron P.
Here's one possibility but it's pretty pricey
https://tinyurl.com/y7k6c5ht
This is such a simple device . . . too bad
the current offering is so short on info and
perhaps quality.
Maybe this could be an open source venture for
the List. I can get housings 3D printed.
Do any of you guy's feel like crafting
a little board to mount the jelly-beans?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Position indicator needed |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/7/2020 8:45 PM, rparigoris wrote:
>
> Hi Charlie
> Yes it's a LM3914 not LM394, dumb thumb. Here's my partner Wayne that will comment:
> Hi Charlie, Thanks for the feedback and I agree with you the 3914 should be operating
as a voltmeter. The pot in the actuator is fine, the problem is that
Actuonix didn't follow proper design (in my opinion) and wired an "adjustment"
pot into the circuit alongside the 3914 whereby its directly across +12 and
ground. Its wiper is in parallel with pin 5 (signal input) AND the wiper from
the actuator pot. I think you can figure out what happens when one pot is adjusted
towards ground and the other (like the actuator) starts heading towards
+12. Full battery short circuit taking out traces on the LM3914 circuit board.
Difficult to fix because critical traces are all under the DIP IC, we're just
looking for a mounted 3914 without this flaw, I suspect a voltage following
op amp would serve as a trim on pin 5 so as to adjust full scale when the actuator
is extended.
>
> Thanks, Wayne
Agree; any trim pot should have the 'top' tied to the source, and the
wiper tied to the 3914's input pin. Any chance you could just modify the
circuit?
Also, the pinout shown on the data sheet for your display seemed a bit
weird, with signal on red and B+ on white. Can you verify that the wire
colors go where the data sheet says they go?
If you don't have any luck with a fix, here's one possibility as a
replacement.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LM3914-10-Segment-5V-12V-Battery-Capacity-Power-Level-LED-Indicator-Display-Kit-/153106868480?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=452950159370
Charlie
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
Hummer H2 wrote:
> And what will be the bonus from this? Is it necessary?
The bonus, in my opinion, is changes are easier.
Is it necessary? Of course not.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497222#497222
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
/Le 09/06/2020 21:27, Bill Watson a crit:
/
> /
>
> The FastStack hub is unpowered, dumb, and for the most part a
> standardized device. The few internal modifications required were
> made and documented before the original shipment and*it's never
> required any further update. */
This is hard to believe.
Or do you mean, when adding or removing a device they considered in
advance when wiring this 'box ?
What if you want to make a mod they did not think of ?
I'd be wary of any connection 'box I don't know what the innards are
made of if all it does is just connect things. How do you troubleshoot ?
>
> /If one is going to do a DIY panel, I can't recommend this 'approach'
> highly enough. /
Is it really DIY if one orders all the boxes and pre-made wire bundles,
and just bolts the boxes in place and plugs factory made connectors ?
I personnally prefer the actual DIY way, drawing architecture and
systems schematics and fabricating my own cables and connectors.
Lighter, cheaper and really tailor-made.
But there are many ways to skin a cat ;-)
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
> I'd be wary of any connection 'box I don't know what the innards are made of
if all it does is just connect things. How do you troubleshoot ?
>
The "innards" are just traces on a board. I can't imagine having to troubleshoot
it, but if you did, it would be pretty easy.
> Or do you mean, when adding or removing a device they considered in advance when
wiring this 'box ?
> What if you want to make a mod they did not think of ?
In the event you have something outside of the typical device, you just modify
the configuration plug.
> Is it really DIY if one orders all the boxes and pre-made wire bundles, and just
bolts the boxes in place and plugs factory made connectors ?
Is it really DIY if you buy a radio as opposed to building one yourself?
Is it really DIY if you buy an engine as opposed to building one yourself?
I could go on...
> I personnally prefer the actual DIY way, drawing architecture and systems schematics
and fabricating my own cables and connectors. Lighter, cheaper and really
tailor-made.
You are certainly allowed to do that.
Personally, I like being able to choose which tasks of the build I do myself and
which ones I purchase off the shelf.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497224#497224
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
Le 10/07/2020 02:24, donjohnston a crit:
> The "innards" are just traces on a board. I can't imagine having to troubleshoot
it, but if you did, it would be pretty easy.
I meant, how do you troubleshoot your installation should anything go
wrong. You seem to imply they are providing their 'box schematics ?
>
> In the event you have something outside of the typical device, you just modify
the configuration plug.
OK, you just make another plug/connector/ bundle.
>
>
> Is it really DIY if you buy a radio as opposed to building one yourself?
> Is it really DIY if you buy an engine as opposed to building one yourself?
> I could go on...
No problem.
I was just thinking of choosing one's items and *fabricating* something,
e.g. the bundles, plugs, connectors, as opposed to buying everything
premade.
> Personally, I like being able to choose which tasks of the build I do myself
and which ones I purchase off the shelf.
You are certainly entitled to do that, and nobody would deny.
My questions were just to ascertain whether there really was a
"different way to wire avionics" or just another premade
bundle/interconnect box etc.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Eric,
My thoughts:
The EFII harness has an un-necessary SPOF; powering all four injectors thru one
wire. You do not have to accept this SPOF. I would assume the fusible links built
into the harness are capable of opening the injector breakers. Power the
four injectors thru four fuses, a 5A fuse is good for one injector.
Do the EFII supplied firewall connectors melt in a fire?
Does it make sense to have main reg v sense on VPX? (I haven't studied VPx)
It's confusing to show injectors grounded within injector power harness.
The voltage regulator "bus" feed should have a 5A CB versus a fuse because of nuisnace
trip potential of crowbar.
Replace circuit breakers with MIDIs or fuselink wire except voltage regulator "bus"
feed needs to be a CB because of crowbar nuisance trips.
Design your electrical system for a simple, no questions asked, engine out procedure.
You will forget details of your architechture and your intelligence will
fall 90% when the engine quits.
Consider switching to Z-101.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497237#497237
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
> I meant, how do you troubleshoot your installation should anything go
> wrong. You seem to imply they are providing their 'box schematics ?
Yes. You receive a wiring diagram which shows the connections.
> My questions were just to ascertain whether there really was a
> "different way to wire avionics" or just another premade
> bundle/interconnect box etc.
My previous airplane and and every other one I've looked had the avionics wired
the same way. Cables connecting a device to one or more other devices. The
audio panel seemed to have the most connections to other devices. That's one
way.
In my current aircraft, there is only one physical cable between the devices (other
that the audio panel and EFIS's which have two) and the hub. In my opinion,
it's a different way of wiring avionics.
Which means if I want to change the type of com radio, all I need to do is build
a new cable that connects the radio to the hub. I don't have to mess with the
connections to the audio panel or the EFIS's. If the new radio is significantly
different, I may need to modify the configuration plug on the hub. But for
something like a com or nav radio, that's pretty unlikely.
Now in the interest of full disclosure, the hub has no power distribution. So
every cable has a pigtail with two wires for power. So my Com1 cable has a red
and black wire that connects to power and ground. Same for every other device
cable. Some (like my EFIS) have three separate power leads. My GPS has additional
leads for things like my ELT.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497238#497238
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "Zoom2136" <zoom2136(at)yahoo.com> |
Thanks John for taking the time to review my system.
> The EFII harness has an un-necessary SPOF;
Yes, I'm thinking of splitting them up and running them through a dedicated connector.
> Do the EFII supplied firewall connectors melt in a fire?
My harness and ECU shipped last week. I will have to check. If so, I can always
repalce it with a MIL-SPEC connector.
> Does it make sense to have main reg v sense on VPX?
This is per the VPX doc. But, I see your point. I changed it to be powered by a
5A breaker & 20 AWG wire from the MAIN ALT BUS.
> It's confusing to show injectors grounded within injector power harness.
Thanks, changed in my current version.
> The voltage regulator "bus" feed should have a 5A CB versus a fuse because of
nuisnace trip potential of crowbar.
Thanks, changed in me current version.
> Replace circuit breakers with MIDIs or fuselink wire except voltage regulator
"bus" feed needs to be a CB because of crowbar nuisance trips.
This will take some thinking, as I'm not familiar with MIDIs.
> Design your electrical system for a simple, no questions asked, engine out procedure.
You will forget details of your architechture and your intelligence will
fall 90% when the engine quits.
Makes sense.
> Consider switching to Z-101.
I'm now very familiar with Z-14, I'll check 101, but...
Thanks again.
--------
Eric D
Cozy IIIx C-GEDZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497250#497250
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | DIY Serial to Gaycode converter |
Can't find my previous post so here goes.
I was able to use an Arduino Nano to convert serial altitude output from
my Dynon D-10A (same from D-100) to gray code altitude inputs on my
Garmin GTX 320A transponder.
That replaced my AK-350 altitude encoder. Saved some weight, but mainly
I now know that the altitude I see on my Dynon (set to 29.92) is what
ATC sees.
I measured altitude inputs on the GTX 320A. Takes less than 0.1mA to
pull an input to ground. Internally pulled up to 5V (I measured 4.35V),
apparently with a 50K resistor and also has isolation diodes according
to the manual.
That means that the digital outputs of the Nano can drive the
transponder altitude inputs directly (but needs to be inverted from the
altitude table on the aero-electric web site:1 = 0 volts).
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Altitude_Encoding/modecascii.txt
(Note that C4 is LSB and D1 is MSB, so table should be re-arranged as:
... to make a lookup table in the program. (I'm sure there is an
algorithm to calculate the codes, I just found it easier and safer to
use the table.)
The serial altitude output from the Dynon are +-7V volts, so needs to be
brought to 0 to 5V for input to the Nano. A 2N7000 FET does that nicely.
Source to ground, Drain to Nano input (internal pull-up resistor
enabled) and Gate to Dynon output. Gate can handle +-20V, so if handled
carefully needs no additional components. Also inverts the signal to
what the serial software expects (active low).
Attached program can be compiled and uploaded to a Nano using the
Arduino IDE (https://www.arduino.cc/en/main/software).
Remove the .txt extension from the file name (the list server won't
allow attachments with .ino file extension).
max altitude.
When you set the Dynon to output altitude in 100' steps, it nicely
changes at the displayed 50' points. So if you see 140' displayed you
know the transponder transmits100'; 150' displayed transmits 200'.
I programmed it to use D-10A / D-100 format 1 (example):
#AL +05200T+25D7[CR]
(Look for #, then minus sign if there, then digits, then "T". "T" is use
as delimiter, rest is ignored till next "#").
1200 baud.
Would be easy to change the program to use any of the other formats and
baud rates.
So there you have it: a serial converter/encoder for $6 or less.
Finn
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Serial to Gaycode converter |
Wonderful, the cheapest available units are $100.
Doesn't the D10A output grey code though?
On Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 20:15 Finn Lassen wrote:
> Can't find my previous post so here goes.
>
> I was able to use an Arduino Nano to convert serial altitude output from
> my Dynon D-10A (same from D-100) to gray code altitude inputs on my Garmin
> GTX 320A transponder.
>
> That replaced my AK-350 altitude encoder. Saved some weight, but mainly I
> now know that the altitude I see on my Dynon (set to 29.92) is what ATC
> sees.
>
> I measured altitude inputs on the GTX 320A. Takes less than 0.1mA to pull
> an input to ground. Internally pulled up to 5V (I measured 4.35V),
> apparently with a 50K resistor and also has isolation diodes according to
> the manual.
>
> That means that the digital outputs of the Nano can drive the transponder
> altitude inputs directly (but needs to be inverted from the altitude table
> on the aero-electric web site:1 = 0 volts).
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Altitude_Encoding/modecascii.txt
>
> (Note that C4 is LSB and D1 is MSB, so table should be re-arranged as:
>
> ... to make a lookup table in the program. (I'm sure there is an
> algorithm to calculate the codes, I just found it easier and safer to use
> the table.)
>
> The serial altitude output from the Dynon are +-7V volts, so needs to be
> brought to 0 to 5V for input to the Nano. A 2N7000 FET does that nicely.
> Source to ground, Drain to Nano input (internal pull-up resistor enabled)
> and Gate to Dynon output. Gate can handle +-20V, so if handled carefully
> needs no additional components. Also inverts the signal to what the serial
> software expects (active low).
>
> Attached program can be compiled and uploaded to a Nano using the Arduino
> IDE (https://www.arduino.cc/en/main/software).
>
> Remove the .txt extension from the file name (the list server won't allow
> attachments with .ino file extension).
>
> max altitude.
>
> When you set the Dynon to output altitude in 100' steps, it nicely changes
> at the displayed 50' points. So if you see 140' displayed you know the
> transponder transmits100'; 150' displayed transmits 200'.
>
> I programmed it to use D-10A / D-100 format 1 (example):
> #AL +05200T+25D7[CR]
> (Look for #, then minus sign if there, then digits, then "T". "T" is use
> as delimiter, rest is ignored till next "#").
> 1200 baud.
>
> Would be easy to change the program to use any of the other formats and
> baud rates.
>
> So there you have it: a serial converter/encoder for $6 or less.
>
> Finn
>
>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_7040235781590540538_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY Serial to Gaycode converter |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Nope.
"Dynon's altitude signal output is an RS-232 serial data stream that is
compatible with newer style transponders like the Garmin GTX-330 and
GTX-327. Transponders only accepting the traditional gray code
(sometimes called Gillham code) input require Dynon's optional encoder
converter module." $80
Finn
On 7/11/2020 11:44 PM, Sebastien wrote:
> Wonderful, the cheapest available units are $100.
>
> Doesn't the D10A output grey code though?
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Serial to Gaycode converter |
Thanks Finn, I was thinking of the old D10.
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 07:51 Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> Nope.
>
> "Dynon's altitude signal output is an RS-232 serial data stream that is
> compatible with newer style transponders like the Garmin GTX-330 and
> GTX-327. Transponders only accepting the traditional gray code
> (sometimes called Gillham code) input require Dynon's optional encoder
> converter module." $80
>
> Finn
>
>
> On 7/11/2020 11:44 PM, Sebastien wrote:
> > Wonderful, the cheapest available units are $100.
> >
> > Doesn't the D10A output grey code though?
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY Serial to Gaycode converter |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Oops. Just noticed a bug in the source code I previously uploaded,
should be:
sAltitude = sAltitude.substring(0, sAltitude.length() - 2);
Otherwise won't see 10,000s of feet.
Attached is the corrected source code and compiled non-test version.
Finn
On 7/11/2020 11:03 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
> Attached program can be compiled and uploaded to a Nano using the
> Arduino IDE (https://www.arduino.cc/en/main/software).
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Static system tests |
I recently came upon a question that I don't find a clear answer in
91.411 or 91.413. Aircraft in question is either ELSA or E-AMB, built
for VFR only. It is based under Mode C veil, and may have need to fly
transitions through Class B, so it has to have ADS-B Out.
The question is what level, if any, of certification the static system
needs to assure that the ADS-B altitude reported is accurate?
I am thinking a leak check at a minimum, but don't see any clear
requirement. I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ornerycuss2001 <ornerycuss2001(at)protonmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static system tests |
91.217b requires that the pressure altitude for the transponder and ADSB come from
the same source. Finding no other requirement for ADSB by itself it seems
reasonable that a static system check for the transponder would be sufficient.
I believe ADSB transmits both pressure altitude and GPS altitude. I'm guessing
any large discrepancy would be flagged by the ADSB ground system and a (computer
generated) letter of correction would be sent to the registered owner.
FWIW, I just had my static system and transponder checked (transponder is also
the ADSB box) and no separate check was performed for ADSB altitude information.
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
Original Message
On Monday, July 13, 2020 4:12 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> I recently came upon a question that I don't find a clear answer in
> 91.411 or 91.413. Aircraft in question is either ELSA or E-AMB, built
> for VFR only. It is based under Mode C veil, and may have need to fly
> transitions through Class B, so it has to have ADS-B Out.
> The question is what level, if any, of certification the static system
> needs to assure that the ADS-B altitude reported is accurate?
> I am thinking a leak check at a minimum, but don't see any clear
> requirement. I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Premature EarthX death? |
| From: | "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com> |
Consider the EarthX battery's reliability for a moment. I wonder if it is a sufficiently
complex unit with multiple failure points and that maybe it's reliability
is not equal to the AMG type battery. Is the AMG battery a better choice
for an electrically defendant airframe? Is there any way to get reliability
data?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497278#497278
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Static System Test |
| From: | "James Meade" <jnmeade(at)southslope.net> |
Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question is
either ELSA or E-AMB, built
for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the wrong
impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design CTSW
ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to be
capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a visit
to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion may
well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader didn't
conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
distraction.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Serial to Gaycode converter -- resent |
Oops. Just noticed a bug in the source code I previously uploaded,
should be:
sAltitude = sAltitude.substring(0, sAltitude.length() - 2);
Otherwise won't see 10,000s of feet.
Attached is the corrected source code and compiled non-test version.
Finn
On 7/11/2020 11:03 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
> Attached program can be compiled and uploaded to a Nano using the
> Arduino IDE (https://www.arduino.cc/en/main/software).
---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static System Test |
There is no difference between VFR and IFR capable aircraft in the
requirements for testing altimetry systems, transponders, and encoders. If
you're in rule airspace, you need to do the tests every two years.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:29 James Meade wrote:
> jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
>
> Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question is
> either ELSA or E-AMB, built
> for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the
> wrong
> impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design CTSW
> ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to be
> capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
> 91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a visit
> to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion
> may
> well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader didn't
> conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
> distraction.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Premature EarthX death? |
At 05:49 AM 7/14/2020, you wrote:
>
>Consider the EarthX battery's reliability for a moment. I wonder if
>it is a sufficiently complex unit with multiple failure points and
>that maybe it's reliability is not equal to the AMG type
>battery. Is the AMG battery a better choice for an electrically
>defendant airframe? Is there any way to get reliability data?
>
>--------
>Brooks Cone
>Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Excellent question. Unfortunately there is no data for
deducing an objective answer.
These batteries are obviously more complex . . . they
have solid state devices in series with a cranking-
current/charging-current pathway. Except for the rare
application of MOS transistors in solid state contactors,
these applications are novel to say the least. It would
be interesting to see the MTBF studies on this collection
of hardware. It's axiomatic that addition of the
electronics REDUCES reliability over the bare-bones
battery.
At the same time, the electronics REDUCES risk
of battery failure do to external abuses of over-current,
over-discharge, over-charge, unequal charging
of cells, etc.
In other words, because these batteries are chemically
more fragile than their lead-acid cousins it behooves
use to add electronic protections to ward off
the hazards of poor system integration.
By that I suggest that replacing SVLA with LiFePO4
is pounding a square peg into a round hole.
This is like the NiCad story from 60 years ago.
We pounded that peg into another ill-fitting
hole and it took a few spectacular failure
incidents before, you guessed it, band-aids
were added to the system which pushed system
integration short-falls off onto the cockpit
crew! And most people are completely unaware
of the fact that NiCads had to be serviced
in completely separate facilities from then
common flooded lead-acid devices. Seems
potassium hydroxide electrolyte is something
of an antagonist to sulfuric acid electrolyte
and vise-versa. FBO's didn't have much good
to say about Ni-Cads.
So what were (are) the driving forces for
trying to pound these pegs into ill-fitting
holes? With Ni-Cad it was the promise of
weight reduction combined with longer service
life . . . the Ni-Cad had superior cranking
ability and did not suffer from deep discharge
effects.
With LiFePO4 we're really hung up on weight . . .
and with slightly improved cranking . . . at
'normal' temperatures. But let's look at
the weight thing.
Suppose you have a nice RV with a new LiFePO4
which replaced a 10 pound heavier SVLA.
What are the benefits have been
secured? Your fuel tanks didn't grow by
1.5 gallons . . . so endurance is unchanged.
When was the last time you off-loaded
10# of baggage because you were over-grossed?
If you had two, identical RV's except
SLVA and LiFePO4 batteries. What flight
testing would you conduct do deduce which
airplane had the lighter battery? Take
off run . . . service ceiling . . . fuel
consumption?
The point being that while weight reduction
is never a 'bad' thing in airplanes, reducing
the weight of one accessory has to be traded
of with costs of ownership and objective
gains in performance.
Roy Lopresti and Burt Rutan were the grand
masters of airframe weight management. Uncle
Roy turned the Model 20 Mooney into the 201
and 231 by achieving 1 mhp/hp through dozens
of weight/drag reductions. Burt had to
design an airplane that consumed 5 gallons
of gas for every pound of airframe weight
to go around the world. Again, attention to
details on hundreds of weight issues made
that mission possible.
But in the real world of RV's and LongEz's
does a ten pound reduction in ramp weight
offer a return on investment for the increased
cost of ownership for LiFePO4 vs. SLVA?
I'm not suggesting that there's no place
for LiFePO4 on airplanes . . . but I do
suggest that an electrical system could be
crafted that is LiFePO4 friendly such
that no complex, throw-away electronics
are needed INSIDE the battery. Such a
system would not necessarily be unfriendly
to SVLA.
This would reduce cost of ownership and
increase battery reliability by way
of parts reduction . . . but the short
answer to your question is service-
records (history) will tell. Will the
marketplace be as eager to pay the
freight on a LiFePO4 'smart' product?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Premature EarthX death? |
P.S.
> Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
> to SVLA.
I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
bench right now running the traps on energy
vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
EarthX device waiting to run the same
tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
I've been thinking a lot about the
LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
with a goal of reducing parts count
and cost-of-ownership. The weight
reduction may not produce observable
benefits but at least it shouldn't
cost so much or impact reliability.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static System Test |
Interesting thought, and contrary to what a friend who does xpndr certs has
to say about them. (Not the time interval, but the level of testing
requirements.)
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:39 AM Sebastien wrote:
> There is no difference between VFR and IFR capable aircraft in the
> requirements for testing altimetry systems, transponders, and encoders. If
> you're in rule airspace, you need to do the tests every two years.
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:29 James Meade wrote:
>
>> jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
>>
>> Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question
>> is
>> either ELSA or E-AMB, built
>> for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the
>> wrong
>> impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design CTSW
>> ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to
>> be
>> capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
>> 91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a
>> visit
>> to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion
>> may
>> well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader
>> didn't
>> conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
>> distraction.
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static System Test |
Wrong!!! VFR only aircraft do not need the altimiter test. They only need
the Transponder test. Go re-read the regulations.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 08:39 Sebastien wrote:
> There is no difference between VFR and IFR capable aircraft in the
> requirements for testing altimetry systems, transponders, and encoders. If
> you're in rule airspace, you need to do the tests every two years.
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:29 James Meade wrote:
>
>> jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
>>
>> Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question
>> is
>> either ELSA or E-AMB, built
>> for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the
>> wrong
>> impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design CTSW
>> ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to
>> be
>> capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
>> 91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a
>> visit
>> to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion
>> may
>> well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader
>> didn't
>> conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
>> distraction.
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Premature EarthX death? |
Bob, while I cannot agree with you about the importance of 10 lbs.
additional useful load, I do think you are onto something with the LiFePO4
friendly electrical system. Builders could then choose any appropriate off
the shelf battery, or even build their own. What are some of the features
that an LiFePO4 friendly system would have?
Ken
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 7:52 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> P.S.
>
> > Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
> > to SVLA.
>
> I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
> bench right now running the traps on energy
> vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
> EarthX device waiting to run the same
> tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
>
> I've been thinking a lot about the
> LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
> with a goal of reducing parts count
> and cost-of-ownership. The weight
> reduction may not produce observable
> benefits but at least it shouldn't
> cost so much or impact reliability.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Static System Test |
Always best to read the regs. This article will point you to the
respective regs for IFR-only altimeter checks & VFR/IFR transponder checks.
https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/maintenance-and-inspections/aircraft-inspections
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:48 AM Charlie England
wrote:
> Interesting thought, and contrary to what a friend who does xpndr certs
> has to say about them. (Not the time interval, but the level of testing
> requirements.)
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:39 AM Sebastien wrote:
>
>> There is no difference between VFR and IFR capable aircraft in the
>> requirements for testing altimetry systems, transponders, and encoders. If
>> you're in rule airspace, you need to do the tests every two years.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:29 James Meade wrote:
>>
>>> jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
>>>
>>> Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question
>>> is
>>> either ELSA or E-AMB, built
>>> for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the
>>> wrong
>>> impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design
>>> CTSW
>>> ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to
>>> be
>>> capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
>>> 91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a
>>> visit
>>> to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion
>>> may
>>> well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader
>>> didn't
>>> conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
>>> distraction.
>>> ==========
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stein Bruch <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Static System Test |
Indeed. This shouldn=99t even be a debate =93 though VFR and IF
R both require a
24 mo inspection, WHAT they require is totally and utterly different
=93 they
are NOT the same.
We do hundreds of these per year, both IFR and VFR and can verify there is
a substantial difference between the requirements for VFR and IFR checks.
Cheers,
Stein
*From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *David Carter
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 14, 2020 11:59 AM
*To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Static System Test
Always best to read the regs. This article will point you to the
respective regs for IFR-only altimeter checks & VFR/IFR transponder checks.
https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/maintenance-and-inspecti
ons/aircraft-inspections
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:48 AM Charlie England
wrote:
Interesting thought, and contrary to what a friend who does xpndr certs has
to say about them. (Not the time interval, but the level of testing
requirements.)
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:39 AM Sebastien wrote:
There is no difference between VFR and IFR capable aircraft in the
requirements for testing altimetry systems, transponders, and encoders. If
you're in rule airspace, you need to do the tests every two years.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:29 James Meade wrote:
jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question is
either ELSA or E-AMB, built
for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the
wrong
impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design CTSW
ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to be
capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a visit
to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion may
well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader didn't
conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
distraction.
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
FORUMS -
eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
WIKI -
errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John William Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static System Test |
Stein, Thank You for correcting this simple misunderstanding in the
Experimental Community. Could not say it better. Know the regs, stay on
good terms with your Avionics Rep. ELSA have strict equipment
requirements. I am not up to speed on which ELSA are IFR qualified. I do
know of many IFR equipment Amatuer Built E-AB.
John Cox - Retire Airline Avionics Technician
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:56 AM Stein Bruch wrote:
> Indeed. This shouldn=99t even be a debate =93 though VFR and
IFR both require
> a 24 mo inspection, WHAT they require is totally and utterly different
=93
> they are NOT the same.
>
>
> We do hundreds of these per year, both IFR and VFR and can verify there i
s
> a substantial difference between the requirements for VFR and IFR checks.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stein
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *David Carter
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 14, 2020 11:59 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Static System Test
>
>
> Always best to read the regs. This article will point you to the
> respective regs for IFR-only altimeter checks & VFR/IFR transponder check
s.
>
>
> https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/maintenance-and-inspec
tions/aircraft-inspections
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:48 AM Charlie England
> wrote:
>
> Interesting thought, and contrary to what a friend who does xpndr certs
> has to say about them. (Not the time interval, but the level of testing
> requirements.)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:39 AM Sebastien wrote:
>
> There is no difference between VFR and IFR capable aircraft in the
> requirements for testing altimetry systems, transponders, and encoders. I
f
> you're in rule airspace, you need to do the tests every two years.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:29 James Meade wrote:
>
> jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
>
> Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question is
> either ELSA or E-AMB, built
> for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the
> wrong
> impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design CTSW
> ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to be
> capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
> 91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a visit
> to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion
> may
> well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader didn't
> conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
> distraction.
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
>
> ---
> David Carter
> david(at)carter.net
>
--
Johnny C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static System Test |
My apologies, a while back I checked the FARs and it looked to me like they
were the same as in Canada but I either got it wrong or looked in the wrong
place. Thank you for the correction.
Which regs does the encoder come under? Altimeter or transponder?
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:56 Stein Bruch wrote:
> Indeed. This shouldn=99t even be a debate =93 though VFR and
IFR both require
> a 24 mo inspection, WHAT they require is totally and utterly different
=93
> they are NOT the same.
>
>
> We do hundreds of these per year, both IFR and VFR and can verify there i
s
> a substantial difference between the requirements for VFR and IFR checks.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stein
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *David Carter
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 14, 2020 11:59 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Static System Test
>
>
> Always best to read the regs. This article will point you to the
> respective regs for IFR-only altimeter checks & VFR/IFR transponder check
s.
>
>
> https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/maintenance-and-inspec
tions/aircraft-inspections
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:48 AM Charlie England
> wrote:
>
> Interesting thought, and contrary to what a friend who does xpndr certs
> has to say about them. (Not the time interval, but the level of testing
> requirements.)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:39 AM Sebastien wrote:
>
> There is no difference between VFR and IFR capable aircraft in the
> requirements for testing altimetry systems, transponders, and encoders. I
f
> you're in rule airspace, you need to do the tests every two years.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:29 James Meade wrote:
>
> jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
>
> Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question is
> either ELSA or E-AMB, built
> for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the
> wrong
> impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design CTSW
> ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to be
> capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
> 91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a visit
> to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion
> may
> well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader didn't
> conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
> distraction.
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
>
> ---
> David Carter
> david(at)carter.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Static System Test |
If your friend is referring to RVSM requirements then that's true but I
don't know many E-AB aircraft flying above 28 000'. Otherwise what
requirements are different?
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 08:52 Charlie England wrote:
> Interesting thought, and contrary to what a friend who does xpndr certs
> has to say about them. (Not the time interval, but the level of testing
> requirements.)
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:39 AM Sebastien wrote:
>
>> There is no difference between VFR and IFR capable aircraft in the
>> requirements for testing altimetry systems, transponders, and encoders. If
>> you're in rule airspace, you need to do the tests every two years.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:29 James Meade wrote:
>>
>>> jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
>>>
>>> Just a slight clarification of Kelly's comment. "Aircraft in question
>>> is
>>> either ELSA or E-AMB, built
>>> for VFR only." I'm just pointing out in case someone gets the
>>> wrong
>>> impression that ELSA and E-AB may be IFR capable. My Flight Design
>>> CTSW
>>> ELSA is legal for IMC and can be filed IFR. Granted, few ELSA seem to
>>> be
>>> capable of IFR, but that doesn't mean they can't be if equipped per FAR
>>> 91.205. A fair number of E-AB are IFR capable, as can be seen by a
>>> visit
>>> to VansAirForce web site. So the particular aircraft under discussion
>>> may
>>> well be VFR only, but I just wanted to make sure the casual reader
>>> didn't
>>> conclude that ELSA and E-AB are not or can not be IFR. Sorry for the
>>> distraction.
>>> ==========
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Premature EarthX death? |
At 11:01 AM 7/14/2020, you wrote:
>Bob, while I cannot agree with you about the importance of 10 lbs.
>additional useful load . . .
Can you articulate the 'usefulness' in numbers? "Useful load" is
an arbitrary number derived from a host of design goals,
validated by very demanding flight testing and finally
holy-watered by someone who may not even have a pilot's
license much less practical experience in light plane
operations.
A delta-weight of 10 pounds on performance in a 1600 to
1800 pound airplane is undetectable by contemporary measurement
techniques. How many OBAM aircraft owners routinely
push the envelope for service ceiling, time to
climb, take off roll, etc. etc?
>I do think you are onto something with the LiFePO4 friendly electrical system.
>Builders could then choose any appropriate off the shelf battery, or
>even build
>their own. What are some of the features that an LiFePO4 friendly
>system would have?
BMS features are part of the ship's electrical
system including:
Over discharge disconnect (open the battery contactor)
Over current disconnect ( ditto )
Over voltage protection (already part of every thoughtful
system).
Cell balancing (not sure this is even called for
in assemblages of quality cells
that are not routinely deep
discharged . . . looking to clarify
that)
Recharge rate
Management (easily added to the duties of an
agile voltage regulator).
The benefits of such a system may extend past
the weight thingy . . . suppose you could stuff
a battery space with the SAME weight of lithium
as the removed SLVA and enjoy phenomenal alternator-
out endurance in electrically dependent engines?
These are things that come to mind the soonest . . . no
doubt there are others.
For a century we have been putting 'round' batteries
into systems DESIGNED with 'round' holes. I'm thinking
that with rather rudimentary design changes we can
craft a system that readily accepts bare-foot LiFePO4
arrays that wouldn't insult an SVLA battery either.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Premature EarthX death? |
kolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
=C2-> Can you articulate the 'usefulness' in numbers?
=C2- I can.=C2- My airplane tops out at 1320.=C2- There is a whole ca
tegory of airplanes with that limitation now.=C2- Having made an arguably
poor decision to use an engine that is on the heavy side, any extra weight
in the nose comes with a corresponding requirement to add even more weight
in the rear.=C2- 10 will get you 20, in other words.
The plane weighs 800, and I'm hitting the scales at 270 nowadays.=C2- if
a 130lb passenger joins me, I can't use my full 22gal of fuel capacity, and
we can't carry any luggage.
It's not that the 10lbs is so heavy in relation to the plane.=C2- It's th
at it is heavy in relation to what you have left in the budget.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Premature EarthX death? |
Can you articulate the 'usefulness' in numbers?
I could try, but I would fail miserably. Logically I understand that 10
pounds added to the gross is unlikely to cause me to hit the spruce tree on
takeoff. But in reality, I know that decisions about what to take and what
to leave are necessary all the time.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:03 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:01 AM 7/14/2020, you wrote:
>
> Bob, while I cannot agree with you about the importance of 10 lbs.
> additional useful load . . .
>
>
> Can you articulate the 'usefulness' in numbers? "Useful load" is
> an arbitrary number derived from a host of design goals,
> validated by very demanding flight testing and finally
> holy-watered by someone who may not even have a pilot's
> license much less practical experience in light plane
> operations.
>
> A delta-weight of 10 pounds on performance in a 1600 to
> 1800 pound airplane is undetectable by contemporary measurement
> techniques. How many OBAM aircraft owners routinely
> push the envelope for service ceiling, time to
> climb, take off roll, etc. etc?
>
> I do think you are onto something with the LiFePO4 friendly electrical
> system.
> Builders could then choose any appropriate off the shelf battery, or even
> build
> their own. What are some of the features that an LiFePO4 friendly system
> would have?
>
>
> BMS features are part of the ship's electrical
> system including:
>
> Over discharge disconnect (open the battery contactor)
> Over current disconnect ( ditto )
> Over voltage protection (already part of every thoughtful
> system).
> Cell balancing (not sure this is even called for
> in assemblages of quality cells
> that are not routinely deep
> discharged . . . looking to clarify
> that)
> Recharge rate
> Management (easily added to the duties of an
> agile voltage regulator).
>
> The benefits of such a system may extend past
> the weight thingy . . . suppose you could stuff
> a battery space with the SAME weight of lithium
> as the removed SLVA and enjoy phenomenal alternator-
> out endurance in electrically dependent engines?
>
> These are things that come to mind the soonest . . . no
> doubt there are others.
>
> For a century we have been putting 'round' batteries
> into systems DESIGNED with 'round' holes. I'm thinking
> that with rather rudimentary design changes we can
> craft a system that readily accepts bare-foot LiFePO4
> arrays that wouldn't insult an SVLA battery either.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Static System Test |
| From: | "jnmeade" <jnmeade(at)southslope.net> |
[quote="rv10pro(at)gmail.com"]Stein, Thank You for correcting this simple misunderstanding
in the Experimental Community. Could not say it better. Know the regs,
stay on good terms with your Avionics Rep. ELSA have strict equipment requirements.
Some further clarification may be in order.
Yes, ELSA Experimental Light Sport Aircraft must be built exactly like SLSA Special
Light Sport Aircraft or start life as a factory built SLSA.
As soon as the ELSA airworthiness certificate is issued, the plane can be extensively
modified (so long as the change is not so great as to requires a new Operating
Limitation).
If you want to use a different tire or battery in your SLSA, you must have an MOA
from the manufacturer. If you want to use a different battery, tire, radio,
seat belt, EFS, etc in your ELSA you make a log book entry (again, so long as
you don't materially change the characteristics of the aircraft).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497303#497303
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
EarthX death?
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:52 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> P.S.
>
> > Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
> > to SVLA.
>
> I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
> bench right now running the traps on energy
> vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
> EarthX device waiting to run the same
> tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
>
> I've been thinking a lot about the
> LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
> with a goal of reducing parts count
> and cost-of-ownership. The weight
> reduction may not produce observable
> benefits but at least it shouldn't
> cost so much or impact reliability.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Add my vote for an architecture that allows 'bare' LiFePO4 batteries to be
used. While I have no desire to pay an almost 10X premium to save 10 lbs, I
do think that the brand X crowd is deceiving themselves if they think the
battery is a functional drop-in replacement for SLA. There are failure
modes (and even 'normal' operating modes) that can take the battery off
line, without any control by the operator (pilot). I suspect that many
early adopters haven't done an adequate 'FMEA' on all the potential
ramifications of inserting a fully automatic, non-user-controllable BMS in
the loop.
Some things do benefit from automation, but others don't. For instance,
most of us won't accept an engine controller that automatically shuts the
engine down due to low oil pressure. We want to be notified, and make the
call on shutdown based on immediate circumstances. Automatic dropping the
battery off line could in some circumstances be just as hazardous.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
EarthX death?
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
Just as another data point. I run an AeroAkku LFP450D which I bought in
Germany. It's in my Rans S-6S with a Jabiru 3300 engine. The AeroAkku
replaced an Odyssey PC680 and with mounting hardware combined I shaved
about 14lbs off the weight of the plane, which equates to 40 minutes of
fuel capacity. The LFP450D has integrated balancer and protection
circuitry, nothing external needed. It costs about 3x the PC680.
The charge circuit required no changes, the cheap Kubota regulator and
the 25A PMA work just fine with this setup. I do keep a LiFePO4 specific
charger on the battery when not flying, but other than that it's
maintenance free and it spins my Jabiru like there's no tomorrow. Even
when cold, after 'waking up' the chemistry by running a couple of loads.
I should really replace the battery due to age, I installed it in 2013..
After 7 years still going strong every time.
Rob
On 7/15/2020 4:00 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:52 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
> P.S.
>
> > Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
> > to SVLA.
>
> I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
> bench right now running the traps on energy
> vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
> EarthX device waiting to run the same
> tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
>
> I've been thinking a lot about the
> LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
> with a goal of reducing parts count
> and cost-of-ownership. The weight
> reduction may not produce observable
> benefits but at least it shouldn't
> cost so much or impact reliability.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Add my vote for an architecture that allows 'bare' LiFePO4 batteries
> to be used. While I have no desire to pay an almost 10X premium to
> save 10 lbs, I do think that the brand X crowd is deceiving themselves
> if they think the battery is a functional drop-in replacement for SLA.
> There are failure modes (and even 'normal' operating modes) that can
> take the battery off line, without any control by the operator
> (pilot). I suspect that many early adopters haven't done an adequate
> 'FMEA' on all the potential ramifications of inserting a fully
> automatic, non-user-controllable BMS in the loop.
>
> Some things do benefit from automation, but others don't. For
> instance, most of us won't accept an engine controller that
> automatically shuts the engine down due to low oil pressure. We want
> to be notified, and make the call on shutdown based on immediate
> circumstances. Automatic dropping the battery off line could in some
> circumstances be just as hazardous.
>
> Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cost effective technology |
| From: | "Goodw1n" <MelbsJSnells(at)yahoo.com> |
I also work as a software engineer, can you please tell me where do you work if it's not a secret. I just received my cisco certificate from https://www.spotoclub.com/ (https://www.spotoclub.com/). And finished university of Ontario institute of technology. I now interview 3 different companies and in the middle of something! Need advices for my future work! They were nice to me and well-informed by my CV. They told me nothing. Except 2 companies e-mailed me 2 more appointments at their office and told me to bring everything with me and my diploma and certificate. Is tha good news?!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497313#497313
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
EarthX death?
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:54 AM Rob Turk wrote:
> Just as another data point. I run an AeroAkku LFP450D which I bought in
> Germany. It's in my Rans S-6S with a Jabiru 3300 engine. The AeroAkku
> replaced an Odyssey PC680 and with mounting hardware combined I shaved
> about 14lbs off the weight of the plane, which equates to 40 minutes of
> fuel capacity. The LFP450D has integrated balancer and protection
> circuitry, nothing external needed. It costs about 3x the PC680.
>
> The charge circuit required no changes, the cheap Kubota regulator and the
> 25A PMA work just fine with this setup. I do keep a LiFePO4 specific
> charger on the battery when not flying, but other than that it's
> maintenance free and it spins my Jabiru like there's no tomorrow. Even when
> cold, after 'waking up' the chemistry by running a couple of loads.
>
> I should really replace the battery due to age, I installed it in 2013..
> After 7 years still going strong every time.
>
> Rob
>
> On 7/15/2020 4:00 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:52 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> P.S.
>>
>> > Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
>> > to SVLA.
>>
>> I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
>> bench right now running the traps on energy
>> vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
>> EarthX device waiting to run the same
>> tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
>>
>> I've been thinking a lot about the
>> LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
>> with a goal of reducing parts count
>> and cost-of-ownership. The weight
>> reduction may not produce observable
>> benefits but at least it shouldn't
>> cost so much or impact reliability.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
> Add my vote for an architecture that allows 'bare' LiFePO4 batteries to be
> used. While I have no desire to pay an almost 10X premium to save 10 lbs, I
> do think that the brand X crowd is deceiving themselves if they think the
> battery is a functional drop-in replacement for SLA. There are failure
> modes (and even 'normal' operating modes) that can take the battery off
> line, without any control by the operator (pilot). I suspect that many
> early adopters haven't done an adequate 'FMEA' on all the potential
> ramifications of inserting a fully automatic, non-user-controllable BMS in
> the loop.
>
> Some things do benefit from automation, but others don't. For instance,
> most of us won't accept an engine controller that automatically shuts the
> engine down due to low oil pressure. We want to be notified, and make the
> call on shutdown based on immediate circumstances. Automatic dropping the
> battery off line could in some circumstances be just as hazardous.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Hi Rob,
I'd never seen that brand before, so I looked them up.
https://www.aeroakku.com/LIGHT-SPORT-AIRCRAFT/-AEROAKKU-LiFePO4:::6_139.html?language=en&MODsid=3024acbfbb1e3575f16a62b009d3bb51
1st thing I noticed is that it costs 299 Euros, or $341 US dollars. I pay
around $40 for the SLA batteries I use.
2nd thing I noticed is that it's a 7AH battery. No doubt it's fine for
starting, but it's about 1/3 the energy capacity of the SLAs that I use.
That means that if you're running electronic fuel injection, it'll be good
for about 15 minutes after the alternator dies.
What I *didn't* see (at least on that website) was any info whatsoever on
the BMS. Since that company also sells the more common brands of batteries,
it leads me to believe that they are rebranding someone else's battery, but
there's no documentation. Which brings me back to what I wrote, above. With
the addition of, 'we don't know what we don't know'. :-)
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | antenna analyzer? |
Hi,
I just stumbled upon a mention of vector network analyzers, which to my
relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more sophisticated versions of
antenna analyzers.
Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
nanoVNA
instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems about the
same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick functions that
used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for measuring lengths of wire &
cable.
My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that eliminates
analog meter movements while possibly having some down-the-road uses beyond
a once-a-decade SWR check.
Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
Thank you for taking the time to review my diagram and sorry for my late answer!
I hope my answers or questions do no sound ignorant. I'm trying to better understand
my options (pros/cons) and that doesn't go without asking..
> Are there ANY avionics manufacturers
> who recommend 'protecting' their products
> from the ordinary vagaries of electrical
> system excursions by means of special
> consideration for control of their energy
> sources?
>
> The relay, switch and wiring become single
> points of failure for all items on the
> 'protected' bus. Recommend that the breakers
> on these switched buses be moved to their
> respective un-switched buses thus restoring
> individual circuit integrity.
I'm leaning towards eliminating the AVIONX ESS Bus and keeping the AVIONX MAIN
bus for load shedding and engine start (to simply reduce load on the battery).
So my question again, how to size the AVIONX MAIN bus Circuit Breaker properly?
I haven't found an 'official' guide or best practice how to acomplish this.
> Eliminate the breaker in the diode feeder
> to the e-bus . . . that's your normal feed
> path. Any fault that would open that breaker
> puts you in greater peril than risks for
> burning that path's feeders. It's an extra
> gizmo with associated terminals/screws that
> adds no value.
>
> Your e-bus contactor becomes an alternate
> feed path needed in case the main bus is
> shut down due to loss of main alternator.
How is a burning feeder safer then an open CB in this case?
If the CB trips and E-BUS Contactor is open -all equipment on the MAIN BUS remains
operational including the PFD, EIS and ADAHRS (these are fed from KEEP ALIVE
PWR through the GAD27 unit).
The main issue would be: PITCH TRIM lost.
The E-BUS Contactor is normally always On with the ALT-2 ON (on standby).-single
3way switch
Talking about single point of failure (with the ESS BUS CB eliminated): How would
you manage a hard fault on the ESSENTIAL BUS with no option to isolate it other
than opening both the MAIN BUS and E-BUS contactors?
You are left with the own battery powered standby EFIS - how would you bring the
aircraft down in IMC at night? no nav, no com; maybe with the ipad and geo referenced
charts [Shocked]
> Recommend you take the aux alternator
> b-lead directly to battery via fusible
> link. This makes the AUX alternator
> optionally available to the main bus
> through one contactor.
>
> Recommend you replace the ANL in the
> main alternator b-lead with a fusible
> link. Easier, lighter, simpler and just
> as reliable for the intended task of
> fending off an exceedingly unlikely
> failure.
This will require a separate, long (rv10), always hot conductor from the alternator
to the tail of the airplane. With the current setup I could avoid the extra
wire. What exactly speaks against running the B lead to the E-BUS?
> Recommend losing the MOV . . . diode
> on the starter contactor takes care
> of the coil collapse transient.
willco
> Add diodes to all other contactors/relays
> as needed.
willco
> Battery current monitoring? How is this
> useful in flight?
not much, I will eliminate it.
Would it make more sense in a setup with single Alternator for load shedding in
case of ALT failure..?
> How much current does the electronic
> ignition draw when aircraft is parked?
> 10A protection? Why not run it from
> the e-bus? That's a triple-source,
> double fed bus . . . it's not going
> dark in your lifetime.
This is wired per manufacturers diagram: It's always hot. In case of elec smoke/fire
the pilot would open the MAIN BAT contactor (in my case the ESS BUS contactor
too) and the ignition stays unaffected. The 10A protection is supplied and
required by SUREFLY.
The current draw in standby mode (unit off) is .001mA
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497318#497318
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)GMail.com> |
I ordered this https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600 ten days ago. Will
probably be several weeks before I get it.
You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one that'll also be useful
checking transponder (and ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
Still haven't given up on the idea of putting VHF comm antenna under the
RV-4 canopy. Other than vertical polarization, ground plane will
probably be the biggest issue (and impedance matching if I can't get the
ground plane right). Got three 12" 5/32"OD brass tubes from Hobby
Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
Finn
On 7/15/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just stumbledupon a mention of vector network analyzers, which to
> my relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more sophisticated
> versions of antenna analyzers.
>
> Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
> nanoVNA
>
> instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems
> about the same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick
> functions that used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for
> measuringlengths of wire & cable.
>
> My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that
> eliminates analog meter movements while possibly having some
> down-the-road uses beyond a once-a-decade SWR check.
>
> Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Stay in touch when you get it; I'd like to know if it proves useful.
On the subject of the cockpit antenna: Contact me direct; I'll send you
some 1/2" copper foil tape to stick on the canopy. Works even better for
the nav side, if you install a nav radio (set up as half-wave instead of
quarter wave).
Charlie
On 7/15/2020 4:36 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> I ordered this https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600 ten days ago.
> Will probably be several weeks before I get it.
>
> You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one that'll also be
> useful checking transponder (and ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
>
> Still haven't given up on the idea of putting VHF comm antenna under
> the RV-4 canopy. Other than vertical polarization, ground plane will
> probably be the biggest issue (and impedance matching if I can't get
> the ground plane right). Got three 12" 5/32"OD brass tubes from Hobby
> Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
>
> Finn
>
>
> On 7/15/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just stumbledupon a mention of vector network analyzers, which to
>> my relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more sophisticated
>> versions of antenna analyzers.
>>
>> Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
>> nanoVNA
>>
>> instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems
>> about the same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick
>> functions that used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for
>> measuringlengths of wire & cable.
>>
>> My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that
>> eliminates analog meter movements while possibly having some
>> down-the-road uses beyond a once-a-decade SWR check.
>>
>> Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 Single Batt + Dual Alternator |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
One more question regarding the AVIONX relay/switch combo.
Some builders suggested to use a NC relay, so that in case the relay or switch
fails - power to the avionics bus would still be available. I can only think of
the CB protecting the wire to the relay as SPOF..
-thoughts on this kind of setup?
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497321#497321
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
The reason I chose 5/32" tubing is that it's nearly 1" "wide". 5/32 * 2
* Pi = 0.98". I'm considering it a 1" wide strip rolled into a 5/32" tube.
But maybe I'm understanding it wrongly and it's only 5/32" "wide".
Finn
On 7/15/2020 6:00 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Stay in touch when you get it; I'd like to know if it proves useful.
>
> On the subject of the cockpit antenna: Contact me direct; I'll send
> you some 1/2" copper foil tape to stick on the canopy. Works even
> better for the nav side, if you install a nav radio (set up as
> half-wave instead of quarter wave).
>
> Charlie
>
> On 7/15/2020 4:36 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>>
>> I ordered this https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600 ten days ago.
>> Will probably be several weeks before I get it.
>>
>> You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one that'll also be
>> useful checking transponder (and ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
>>
>> Still haven't given up on the idea of putting VHF comm antenna under
>> the RV-4 canopy. Other than vertical polarization, ground plane will
>> probably be the biggest issue (and impedance matching if I can't get
>> the ground plane right). Got three 12" 5/32"OD brass tubes from
>> Hobby Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
>>
>> Finn
>>
>>
>> On 7/15/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just stumbledupon a mention of vector network analyzers, which to
>>> my relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more sophisticated
>>> versions of antenna analyzers.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
>>> nanoVNA
>>>
>>> instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems
>>> about the same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick
>>> functions that used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for
>>> measuringlengths of wire & cable.
>>>
>>> My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that
>>> eliminates analog meter movements while possibly having some
>>> down-the-road uses beyond a once-a-decade SWR check.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I purchased a REDOT SWR meter.
Adapter fittings are necessary to convert to BNC.
It seems to work well. It is very simple to operate.
There is only one button for all functions.
eBay item number:224059845597
Amazon has the best price: $53.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=REDOT+SWR+meter&ref=nb_sb_noss
The REDOT SWR measures power out to antenna, power reflected back to transmitter,
and SWR.
I had started a thread titled "IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY"
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775669
This Friday I will go to the airport and test the SWR of my friend's
antenna that does not have a ground plane
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497323#497323
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The REDOT connectors are female type N.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497324#497324
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/15/2020 6:48 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> I purchased a REDOT SWR meter.
> Adapter fittings are necessary to convert to BNC.
> It seems to work well. It is very simple to operate.
> There is only one button for all functions.
> eBay item number:224059845597
> Amazon has the best price: $53.
> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=REDOT+SWR+meter&ref=nb_sb_noss
> The REDOT SWR measures power out to antenna, power reflected back to transmitter,
and SWR.
> I had started a thread titled "IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY"
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775669
> This Friday I will go to the airport and test the SWR of my friend's
> antenna that does not have a ground plane
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the link, but I'm hoping to get more functionality (features,
uses) at about the same price point.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
At 04:36 PM 7/15/2020, you wrote:
>I ordered this
>https://www.ebay.com/itm/28389885060
0=C2
>ten days ago. Will probably be several weeks before I get it.
>
>You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one
>that'll also be useful checking transponder (and
>ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
>
>Still haven't given up on the idea of putting
>VHF comm antenna under the RV-4 canopy. Other
>than vertical polarization, ground plane will
>probably be the biggest issue (and impedance
>matching if I can't get the ground plane right).
>Got three 12"=C2 5/32"OD brass tubes from Hobby
>Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
>
>Finn
Check out this article from a 1971 issue of QST Magazine
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DDRR_Antenna.PDF
A 2 meter (146 Mhz) version of this antenna
is 6" in diameter and sets about 1" off the
ground plane. An aviation version would be
about 7" in diameter.
It's bandwidth is probably pretty narrow . . .
you'd have to build one and sweep it to
see if it's usable. Would this fit on
the deck just behind the rear seat?
I've got one of those analyzers but haven't
had time to make it sing, dance and do dishes.
I've been using the VNA Tiny which is a good
bit more expensive. It seems to work well.
Let us know how that 'baby' VNA works for you!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
I mentioned last week that I'm gathering
some performance info on some LiFePO4
products.
I've got an EarthX ETX36D that was donated
to 'the cause' by EarthX about 5 years ago.
I've attached a plot of that battery's
condition at new, 1 year and 5.5 years
as a 'bench' battery. It has been used
to jump-start numerous vehicles . . . and
has spent probably 20% of its life on
BatteryTender Jr. maintenance. It's been
off-maintenance for about 6 months and
I plotted it's condition as-stored before
deep cycling it a few times.
I'll see if I can dig up the old load-test
data to compare with a retest this weekend.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com> |
For anyone interested in the VNA-
First educate yourself on what to purchase. There are too many clones out there
and you must be very careful in what you purchase. I have 3 different units which
effectively do the same thing but the user interface is different in each.
Go to the VNA user group at https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users and start researching
the info. The WIKI has a TON of information.
Given you purchase the correct unit (the problem is they keep enhancing this on
a weekly basis) you will be extremely happy with the capability and performance.
And even happier with the price.
I just finished installing a NAV antenna on my Tailwind. Foil was used and attached
to the Lexan windshield. I was able to tune the VOR and ILS portions of the
antenna in real-time while watching the SWR for each frequency.
you can check out antennas to the nth degree, components, chokes, torroids, coax
faults, coax length, impedance, etc, etc
Just educate yourself before purchasing.
--------
KC1DNJ
General Radiotelephone
Commercial SEL
A&P
Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497330#497330
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Oops. That should be:
The reason I chose 5/32" tubing is that it's nearly 0.5" "wide". 5/32 *
Pi = 0.48". I'm considering it a 0.5" wide strip rolled into a 5/32" tube.
Finn
On 7/15/2020 6:39 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> The reason I chose 5/32" tubing is that it's nearly 1" "wide". 5/32 *
> 2 * Pi = 0.98". I'm considering it a 1" wide strip rolled into a
> 5/32" tube.
>
> But maybe I'm understanding it wrongly and it's only 5/32" "wide".
>
> Finn
>
> On 7/15/2020 6:00 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Stay in touch when you get it; I'd like to know if it proves useful.
>>
>> On the subject of the cockpit antenna: Contact me direct; I'll send
>> you some 1/2" copper foil tape to stick on the canopy. Works even
>> better for the nav side, if you install a nav radio (set up as
>> half-wave instead of quarter wave).
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> On 7/15/2020 4:36 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>>>
>>> I ordered this https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600 ten days ago.
>>> Will probably be several weeks before I get it.
>>>
>>> You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one that'll also be
>>> useful checking transponder (and ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
>>>
>>> Still haven't given up on the idea of putting VHF comm antenna under
>>> the RV-4 canopy. Other than vertical polarization, ground plane will
>>> probably be the biggest issue (and impedance matching if I can't get
>>> the ground plane right). Got three 12" 5/32"OD brass tubes from
>>> Hobby Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
>>>
>>> Finn
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/15/2020 3:38 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I just stumbledupon a mention of vector network analyzers, which
>>>> to my relatively RF-uneducated mind, appear to be more
>>>> sophisticated versions of antenna analyzers.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts on purchasing something like this
>>>> nanoVNA
>>>>
>>>> instead of a low end analog antenna analyzer? Purchase cost seems
>>>> about the same, and at least some versions seem to allow some trick
>>>> functions that used to be ungodly expensive, like TDR for
>>>> measuringlengths of wire & cable.
>>>>
>>>> My short term personal motive is to get a cheap SWR meter that
>>>> eliminates analog meter movements while possibly having some
>>>> down-the-road uses beyond a once-a-decade SWR check.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts from the RF-intelligent brain trust?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/15/2020 11:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 04:36 PM 7/15/2020, you wrote:
>
>> I ordered this https://www.ebay.com/itm/283898850600
>> ten days ago. Will probably
>> be several weeks before I get it.
>>
>> You can get them a lot cheaper, but I wanted one that'll also be
>> useful checking transponder (and ADS-B) cable and antenna. (1GHz)
>>
>> Still haven't given up on the idea of putting VHF comm antenna under
>> the RV-4 canopy. Other than vertical polarization, ground plane will
>> probably be the biggest issue (and impedance matching if I can't get
>> the ground plane right). Got three 12" 5/32"OD brass tubes from
>> Hobby Lobby. Should give a reasonably wide bandwidth.
>>
>> Finn
>
> Check out this article from a 1971 issue of QST Magazine
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DDRR_Antenna.PDF
> <http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DDRR_Antenna.PDF>
>
> A 2 meter (146 Mhz) version of this antenna
> is 6" in diameter and sets about 1" off the
> ground plane. An aviation version would be
> about 7" in diameter.
>
> It's bandwidth is probably pretty narrow . . .
> you'd have to build one and sweep it to
> see if it's usable. Would this fit on
> the deck just behind the rear seat?
>
> I've got one of those analyzers but haven't
> had time to make it sing, dance and do dishes.
> I've been using the VNA Tiny which is a good
> bit more expensive. It seems to work well.
> Let us know how that 'baby' VNA works for you!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Thanks Bob.
I did look at this earlier. There's a guy on VansAirforce.com that put
it in a wing tip. Appeared to work for his purpose (APRS Tracking, which
I assume use a single frequency)
https://vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=39797
I dismissed it as being too heavy (and possibly narrow bandwidth), but
didn't consider putting it under the canopy. He used hardware store
copper tubing. But may be able to use some very thin plastic tubing as a
form and wrap copper foil around it. Then there's the tuning capacitor:
variable and high voltage. May be able to replace that with a fixed cap.
Finn
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | DDRR as Comm antenna |
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DDRR_Antenna.PDF
The article says of the diameter (D) of the tube:
"The larger D is the higher efficiency is".
What is mean by "efficiency"?
If it's Q or how narrowbanded the antenna is, then it's the opposite of
a whip (1/4 wave) antenna where you want larger diameter for a larger
bandwidth (Q).
Or is it somehow the radiation pattern?
https://www.everythingrf.com/community/what-is-antenna-efficiency
What happens to the power not radiated? Goes back to transmitter or
converted into heat in the antenna?
I'm a hopeless novice on antennas.
Finn
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/16/2020 7:47 AM, merlewagner2 wrote:
>
> For anyone interested in the VNA-
>
> First educate yourself on what to purchase. There are too many clones out there
and you must be very careful in what you purchase. I have 3 different units
which effectively do the same thing but the user interface is different in each.
>
> Go to the VNA user group at https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users and start researching
the info. The WIKI has a TON of information.
>
> Given you purchase the correct unit (the problem is they keep enhancing this
on a weekly basis) you will be extremely happy with the capability and performance.
And even happier with the price.
>
> I just finished installing a NAV antenna on my Tailwind. Foil was used and attached
to the Lexan windshield. I was able to tune the VOR and ILS portions of
the antenna in real-time while watching the SWR for each frequency.
> you can check out antennas to the nth degree, components, chokes, torroids, coax
faults, coax length, impedance, etc, etc
>
> Just educate yourself before purchasing.
>
> --------
> KC1DNJ
> General Radiotelephone
> Commercial SEL
> A&P
> Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
That's the kind of info I've been hoping to find (failing someone
telling me to 'buy *this one*). My biggest concern is exactly what
you're describing; I want as dirt-simple a user interface as possible,
and a manual written by an English-as-a-1st-language writer. It's great
to see confirmation of all the other 'value added' features.
If you have a specific recommendation that would get me up and running
for a sub-$100 price point, I'd love to see it.
Do you have a web site detailing your P51 & Tailwind projects?
Thanks,
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com> |
[quote="ceengland7(at)gmail.com"]On 7/16/2020 7:47 AM, merlewagner2 wrote:
>
> telling me to 'buy *this one*). My biggest concern is exactly what
> you're describing; I want as dirt-simple a user interface as possible,
> and a manual written by an English-as-a-1st-language writer. It's great
> to see confirmation of all the other 'value added' features.
>
> If you have a specific recommendation that would get me up and running
> for a sub-$100 price point, I'd love to see it.
>
> Do you have a web site detailing your P51 & Tailwind projects?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Charlie,
You are asking for a lot these days. I think you must be older than I am.....
OK, for what it's worth - I would purchase from
http://www.randl.com/shop/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=75145
They are an official[?] U.S. distributor of the Hugen version of the NANOVNA and
the link is to the 4" unit. This site also sells a manual for the VNA. They
told me the shipment they just received is the latest version.
For $60 and $14 for the manual (or start reading on the groups link I provided
earlier) you can start doing amazing things.
I understand enough to be dumb but I have managed to get the unit functioning.
You need to understand calibrations, etc but the book will get you started. Again,
go to the groups site and READ the wiki.
Sorry, no web site for my projects. I get really tired of all the "experts" and
their opinions on how airplanes should be built.
Merle
--------
KC1DNJ
General Radiotelephone
Commercial SEL
A&P
Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497335#497335
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DDRR as Comm antenna |
At 09:28 AM 7/16/2020, you wrote:
><http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DDRR_Antenna.PDF>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DDRR_Antenna.PDF
>
>The article says of the diameter (D) of the tube:
>"The larger D is the higher efficiency is".
>
>What is mean by "efficiency"?
>
>If it's Q or how narrowbanded the antenna is, then it's the opposite
>of a whip (1/4 wave) antenna where you want larger diameter for a
>larger bandwidth (Q).
>
>Or is it somehow the radiation pattern?
>
>https://www.everythingrf.com/community/what-is-antenna-efficiency
>
>[]
>
>
>What happens to the power not radiated? Goes back to transmitter or
>converted into heat in the antenna?
Looking into the antenna's feedline connector, the
observed or measured resistance is mad up of three
components: (1) ohmic resistance, (2) radiation
resistance, and (3) reactance.
Ohmic or metallic resistance is that which emulates
an ordinary resistor . . . when it comes to resistors,
the can do only one thing . . . get warm. I.e. convert
electrical energy into heat. This is the analog to
'dummy loads'; devices that allow you to test a transmitter
while minimizing if not eliminating all radiation.
In antennas, ohmic resistance equates to dissipated
energy.
Radiation resistance is that component of the antenna
that launches energy into the environment. Suppose
your antenna shows 1:1 SWR (no reactance) at 50
ohms but 40 of those ohms are ohmic and only
10 ohms are radiation resistance. Then 80% of
energy at the end of the feedline goes up in heat;
20% gets radiated.
In the 'perfect' antenna, reactance is zero at
resonance and the resistive components add
up to 50 ohms; i.e. 1.0:1 SWR and ohmic resistance
is near zero (impossible dream).
But check out the two comparative plots of an
experimental antenna evaluated with a VNA Tiny
analyzer:
The thin spike antenna is a simple, 1/4 wave
ground plane with no attempt to achieve 50
ohms resistance at the feed point. Note
that SWR never gets down to 1:1 [3] because
it's about +6 ohms (Xs inductive) at resonance.
1.5:1 bandwidth [1]->[2] is 67Mhz
The blade antenna is also 1/4 wave long with
no special attempt at hitting a 50 ohm feedpoint
impedance. This antenna has two swr 'dips' and
a measured 1.5:1 bandwidth of 104Mhz. Here we
see better SWR conditions at two points
where we also see lower reactive components
at [3] and [4].
Tese studies only go to the antenna's
ability to accept energy squirting out the
end of the feedline. It says NOTHING about
efficiency or radiation pattern. But with
simple, 1/4-wave radiators on clear-space
ground planes there is little that needs
to be done in those departments.
If you're interested in pursuing the DDRR
approach, it would be easy to do on your workbench
with a VNA. The antenna is small and easy to
fabricate. You could explore ways to increase
bandwidth.
>I'm a hopeless novice on antennas.
We all were in the beginning . . . No better
way forward than to get out the hammers-n-saws
and MEASURE stuff!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
At 07:47 AM 7/16/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>For anyone interested in the VNA-
>
>First educate yourself on what to purchase. There are too many
>clones out there and you must be very careful in what you purchase.
>I have 3 different units which effectively do the same thing but the
>user interface is different in each.
>
>Go to the VNA user group at https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users and
>start researching the info. The WIKI has a TON of information.
Great data point sir! Thanks.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I have made homemade antennas in the past and wished that I could measure
the resonate frequency. Does the NANO VNA H4 do that? If that is the only
feature that I want, is there a less expensive alternative? This may be wishful
thinking, but is it possible to use a structural part of the airframe as an
antenna? An antenna analyzer could help locate where to attach coax cable.
Of course such an antenna would likely have a skewed radiation pattern.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497338#497338
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
>>
>>
>>Go to the VNA user group at https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users and
>>start researching the info. The WIKI has a TON of information.
>
> Great data point sir! Thanks.
>
> Bob . . .
P.S. I've joined this group and took a quick look around.
Heaven knows I don't need another 'time sink' but at
first blush, this is a gold-mine of VNA-users practical
information.
I strongly encourage joining this group for everyone interested
in adding a VNA to to their toolbox.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
At 01:22 PM 7/16/2020, you wrote:
>
>I have made homemade antennas in the past and wished that I could measure
>the resonate frequency. Does the NANO VNA H4 do that? If that is the only
>feature that I want, is there a less expensive alternative? This
>may be wishful
>thinking, but is it possible to use a structural part of the airframe as an
>antenna? An antenna analyzer could help locate where to attach coax cable.
>Of course such an antenna would likely have a skewed radiation pattern.
The VNA is a sweep signal generator teamed up with a
network analyzer in one box. As you can see from
the plots I posted earlier, you can glean a great
deal of information about the radio frequency characteristics
of a host of 'loads'.
I have a nano-VNA that I've yet to exercise but
have found the big brother VNA Tiny to be
a powerful investigative tool.
https://tinyurl.com/ybm5jxlp
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com> |
user9253 wrote:
> I have made homemade antennas in the past and wished that I could measure
> the resonate frequency. Does the NANO VNA H4 do that? If that is the only
> feature that I want, is there a less expensive alternative? This may be wishful
> thinking, but is it possible to use a structural part of the airframe as an
> antenna? An antenna analyzer could help locate where to attach coax cable.
> Of course such an antenna would likely have a skewed radiation pattern.
The NANOVNA does that and MUCH more. You just have to learn how to use it. Groups
wiki and tons of video via youtube. w2aew has some excellent videos on youtube.
Using the structure as an antenna - not a good plan. Structure is great for a ground
plane.
attaching photo of my NAV/ILS antenna. Used RG174 to feed.
Merle
--------
KC1DNJ
General Radiotelephone
Commercial SEL
A&P
Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497341#497341
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nav_ils_632.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 12:00 PM merlewagner2 wrote:
> wagnermerle(at)gmail.com>
>
> [quote="ceengland7(at)gmail.com"]On 7/16/2020 7:47 AM, merlewagner2 wrote:
>
>
> >
> > telling me to 'buy *this one*). My biggest concern is exactly what
> > you're describing; I want as dirt-simple a user interface as possible,
> > and a manual written by an English-as-a-1st-language writer. It's great
> > to see confirmation of all the other 'value added' features.
> >
> > If you have a specific recommendation that would get me up and running
> > for a sub-$100 price point, I'd love to see it.
> >
> > Do you have a web site detailing your P51 & Tailwind projects?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
> Charlie,
>
> You are asking for a lot these days. I think you must be older than I
> am.....
>
> OK, for what it's worth - I would purchase from
>
> http://www.randl.com/shop/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=75145
>
> They are an official[?] U.S. distributor of the Hugen version of the
> NANOVNA and the link is to the 4" unit. This site also sells a manual for
> the VNA. They told me the shipment they just received is the latest
> version.
>
> For $60 and $14 for the manual (or start reading on the groups link I
> provided earlier) you can start doing amazing things.
>
> I understand enough to be dumb but I have managed to get the unit
> functioning. You need to understand calibrations, etc but the book will get
> you started. Again, go to the groups site and READ the wiki.
>
> Sorry, no web site for my projects. I get really tired of all the
> "experts" and their opinions on how airplanes should be built.
>
> Merle
>
> --------
> KC1DNJ
> General Radiotelephone
> Commercial SEL
> A&P
> Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
>
>
> That's exactly the kind of recommendation I've been wanting! Hoping to get
one in my hands soon, and I'll begin perusing the VNA group. Having access
to that kind of support group is what I hoped for; an 'RF' group similar to
the support we all get with basic electrical stuff on this list. Many
thanks for both tips.
Congrats on the Tailwind. I've had the pleasure of flying several examples,
and they are truly impressive performers, and at a great price point. If I
could find one with the cockpit room and 'creature comforts' of an RV, I'd
seriously consider trading in my RV-6.
Charlie
(And while I'm not cheap, if I spend a nickel, I expect some change...)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | "N804RV" <nilskew(at)gmail.com> |
merlewagner2 wrote:
> For anyone interested in the VNA-
>
> First educate yourself on what to purchase. There are too many clones out there
and you must be very careful in what you purchase. I have 3 different units
which effectively do the same thing but the user interface is different in each.
>
> Go to the VNA user group at https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users and start researching
the info. The WIKI has a TON of information....
Outstanding! There really is "A TON of info" in the VNA user group.
I was looking at these a couple of months ago. But, was a little leary of them.
I've been using the MFJ-259. It does the basic job.
But, now after reading this thread, I bought the Seesii NanoVNA off Amazon for
$68. Can't wait to start using it!
--------
Ken W.
Sonerai IIL Bought and Flying
RV-8 Fuselage in work
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497351#497351
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ground planes - new source for copper foil and questions |
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
I have been working on a transponder antenna for a fiberglass airplane (Cozy IV).
I tried thin copper sheet, then copper flashing. I hated the weight of the
first one I built (and the Frankenstein look of the riveted, soldered seam),
the second one was better and on the 3rd try I got a keeper. The reason is a
new super thin copper foil. $14 bought 10 sheets, enough to make multiple transponder
antennae. See
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R8BS843/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The foil comes with a conductive adhesive backing, so I don't have to rivet and
solder. The following were consistent measurements:
- internal resistance, multi-meter: 0.4 ohm
- resistance across face of sheet: 0.4 ohm
- resistance from face of sheet and across adhesive: 0.5 ohm
A package with 10 sheets weighs 201 grams, for weight per sheet of 20 grams (less
than an ounce). The sheet size is 300 mm x 200 mm (11.81" x 1.87").
Are there optimal / resonant shapes and sizes for the ground plane? The bible
calls for a circle with 5.5" diameter (p. 13-2). I can fit an 11" circle under
the co-pilot seat of the Cozy. Stick with 5.5"?. And I believe I need a second,
mirror image install for the ADSB. Is that right?
Thanks for the help. PK
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497352#497352
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/copper_foil_283.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ground planes - new source for copper foil and |
questions
>The foil comes with a conductive adhesive backing, so I don't have
>to rivet and solder. The following were consistent measurements:
>- internal resistance, multi-meter: 0.4 ohm
>- resistance across face of sheet: 0.4 ohm
>- resistance from face of sheet and across adhesive: 0.5 ohm
>
>A package with 10 sheets weighs 201 grams, for weight per sheet of
>20 grams (less than an ounce). The sheet size is 300 mm x 200 mm
>(11.81" x 1.87").
>
>Are there optimal / resonant shapes and sizes for the ground
>plane? The bible calls for a circle with 5.5" diameter (p.
>13-2). I can fit an 11" circle under the co-pilot seat of the
>Cozy. Stick with 5.5"?. And I believe I need a second, mirror
>image install for the ADSB. Is that right?
Yes . . . there are 'tuned' ground planes 1/4
wave radius around the base of the antenna.
That's were the 5.5" figure comes from . . .
it's 1/2 the height of the XPNDR antenna.
Be cautious of thin copper foils. Copper,
like aluminum, is a non-ferrous material with
a service life under bending vibrations
and other external forces. Stay with 5.5"
o.d. and consider something more robust like
0.040 aluminum disk.
Had a builder fabricate a comm dipole
on the inside surface of a fiberglas
tail many years back. Used copper foil
bonded to inside of structural shell.
A few years of stress cycles due to
temperature coefficient of expansion
of two materials developed cracks in
the elements.
The solid aluminum disk can simply lay on
the inside of the skin like a big
washer . . . works good, lasts a long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
>attaching photo of my NAV/ILS antenna. Used RG174 to feed.
>
>Merle
>
>--------
>KC1DNJ
>General Radiotelephone
>Commercial SEL
>A&P
>Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>Attachments:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com//files/nav_ils_632.jpg
>
I note that the UHF elements (glide slope)
appear much shorter than the expected 33%
or so of a VOR/LOC antenna. Do you think
proximity to structure de-tuned your antenna
downward in frequency?
As a practical matter, a barefooted VOR/LOC
antenna works fine on GS too. They are harmonically
related and LOC/GS signals off the approach
end of the runway are HUGE . . . but it
would be interesting to see the VNA sweeps
of the as-installed antenna. Thanks for
sharing the picture!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I took my SWR meter to the airport today and checked my friend's com antenna.
The SWR was 3.8
Now he knows that his antenna installation will not work very well.
He is considering mounting a new antenna on top of the fuselage.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497356#497356
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kale <jimkale(at)roadrunner.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
At 3.8 SWR the transmitter is in danger of over heating to the point of meltdown!!!!!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 17, 2020, at 8:12 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> I took my SWR meter to the airport today and checked my friend's com antenna.
The SWR was 3.8
> Now he knows that his antenna installation will not work very well.
> He is considering mounting a new antenna on top of the fuselage.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497356#497356
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
At 12:17 AM 7/18/2020, you wrote:
>
>At 3.8 SWR the transmitter is in danger of over heating to the point
>of meltdown!!!!!
This used to be the case back in the day. During the
vacuum tube era, transmitters were a bit more tolerant
of high swr especially given that two-way radio communications
were very low duty cycle. Except for when you're reading
your flight plan to the FSS, transmissions seldom lasted
more than a few seconds.
Early solid state radios were a bit more fragile
given their thermal weak-spots in tiny junctions
within the transistor's architecture . . . but even
that vulnerability faded with improvements in
transistor design. Further, it is not uncommon
these days for a transmitter to have an SWR
bridge BUILT IN to the antenna output pathway
with REVERSE power signals looped back to the
transmitter's power amplifier such that operating
power is scaled down in response to high SWR.
The most probable manifestations of the
high swr . . . especially in a low conductivity
airframe are (1) poor operational performance
and (2) high levels of radio frequency energy
in the cockpit during transmissions. This
phenomenon has been observed countless times
in OBAM aviation's 'plastic' airplanes.
In the case before us, the coax is poorly
terminated thus making the whole feedline
a radiator of energy along it's entire
length . . . which puts significant energy
into the aircraft interior.
RF interference with cockpit instrumentation
is most often observed with products not designed
with rudimentary DO160 qualification guidelines
in mind.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IS a COM ANTENNA GROUND PLANE NECESSARY |
At 07:54 PM 7/17/2020, you wrote:
>
>I took my SWR meter to the airport today and checked my friend's com
>antenna. The SWR was 3.8
>Now he knows that his antenna installation will not work very well.
>He is considering mounting a new antenna on top of the fuselage.
Sounds like a plan . . . thanks for helping
this builder out -AND- sharing the experience
here on the LIST.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
EarthX death?
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
Hi Rob,
>
> I'd never seen that brand before, so I looked them up.
> https://www.aeroakku.com/LIGHT-SPORT-AIRCRAFT/-AEROAKKU-LiFePO4:::6_139.html?language=en&MODsid=3024acbfbb1e3575f16a62b009d3bb51
> 1st thing I noticed is that it costs 299 Euros, or $341 US dollars. I
> pay around $40 for the SLA batteries I use.
> 2nd thing I noticed is that it's a 7AH battery. No doubt it's fine for
> starting, but it's about 1/3 the energy capacity of the SLAs that I
> use. That means that if you're running electronic fuel injection,
> it'll be good for about 15 minutes after the alternator dies.
>
> What I *didn't* see (at least on that website) was any info whatsoever
> on the BMS. Since that company also sells the more common brands of
> batteries, it leads me to believe that they are rebranding someone
> else's battery, but there's no documentation. Which brings me back to
> what I wrote, above. With the addition of, 'we don't know what we
> don't know'. :-)
>
> Charlie
Hi Charlie,
They are selling in Europe only, and have been doing so since 2012 or
so. I think that's even earlier than EarthX? The AeroAkku brand is their
own development, and they started selling a couple of other brands as
well over time. The AeroAkku BMS is embedded in the battery, no external
circuitry required. The Oddyssey it replaced costs about 100 over here,
so 3x for LiFePO4 and 14lbs saved.
Indeed 7Ah doesn't sound like much, but it all depends on your power
budget. On my Rans S-6S with Jabiru 3300 using a gravity-fed carburator,
my power draw is very low. I just tested with everything I have switched
on (Funkwerk radio + xpdr, Stratux receiver, AvMAP UltraEFIS, LED
strobes (own design, modified Kunzlemans), LED landing light, an MGL
FF-4 and an Insight G2 engine monitor. Also powering a Samsung tablet
and a phone. All this draws just 5A steady.
I started with main bus measuring 13.1V. After 40 minutes at 12.8V and
after 50 minutes this had dropped to 12.6V, everything still operating
fine. It then took another 10 minutes to drop below 12V, after that
things went pretty quick. But even after an hour I still had juice to
operate my electric flaps. And this is on a battery that enters it's 8th
year.
So for my mission, this battery is perfect. For yours not so much.
Rob
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: antenna analyzer? |
| From: | "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
Just took a couple photos of my antenna. I did two calibrations, one for Glide
slope and one for Localizer.
Not sure how the photos will come out. These are attached.
I don't remember the length I initially used for antenna. I bench tested and it
looked OK. After install the freqs changed, most likely due to frame proximity.
There are some wire and and ferrites between the connector and the foil. This
will take up some length. I had to cut the foil to get in the freq range.
Merle
--------
KC1DNJ
General Radiotelephone
Commercial SEL
A&P
Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497363#497363
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ils_vna_738.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/loc_vna_639.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LOC/VOR_G.S. Antenna |
At 12:04 PM 7/18/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Just took a couple photos of my antenna. I did two calibrations, one
>for Glide slope and one for Localizer.
>
>Not sure how the photos will come out. These are attached.
>
>I don't remember the length I initially used for antenna. I bench
>tested and it looked OK. After install the freqs changed, most
>likely due to frame proximity. There are some wire and and ferrites
>between the connector and the foil. This will take up some length. I
>had to cut the foil to get in the freq range.
Interesting. I'm wondering if the 'short' elements
are not really functioning as resonant radiators, rather
reactive elements that influence the uhf characteristics
of the overall assembly.
We know that the basic 1/2-wave dipole offers
significantly effective performance at odd
harmonics of the fundamental. If memory serves,
LOC/VOR transmitters operate in the 108 to 118 Mhz
range. 3x these numbers are 324 to 354 . . . more
than the 328 to 336 bandwidth occupied by the
contemporary GS transmitters.
This means that your barefoot LOC/VOR antenna
is quite capable of providing GS signals to
your ILS receiver. For many years, GS
receivers have been installed using band-pass
couplers on the LOC/VOR thus allowing one
STOCK, LOC/VOR antenna to service both VORNAV
and ILS systems.
The attached photo is one of what must be
dozens of examples for this kind of device.
I'm thinking that if you removed the little
'stubs' from the array, your swr plots over
the two band widths of interest would not
be significantly different . . . indeed
both acceptable for the task at hand.
Given the VHF antenna's propensity for acceptable
performance at third harmonic, it is almost a
certainty that the observably 'too small' size
of these stubs is of no benefit to the antenna's
performance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: WIFI Repeater/Booster Options For My Remote Steel |
Hangar???
| From: | "Tenzilla" <CaseyKLandwehri(at)yahoo.com> |
The idea with USB extension cable looks not so bad. I was searching for ideas on
this forum and found this thread. The point is - I have a similar problem. And
the thing about cable can work.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497371#497371
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: WIFI Repeater/Booster Options For My Remote |
Steel Hangar???
At 07:55 AM 7/20/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>The idea with USB extension cable looks not so bad. I was searching
>for ideas on this forum and found this thread. The point is - I have
>a similar problem. And the thing about cable can work.
NOT A REGISTERED MEMBER OF THIS LIST - IGNORE
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | best practices for Molex? |
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
I'm wiring one of my first connectors, a 4-wire molex from wingtip light back to
the wiring conduit and ultimately a faston tab on a panel switch. Is there
a standard for which side is male and which female?
The radios tend to come with female plugs, so I thought to extend that: everything
that points either to center line or the panel is male. But is there a standard
practice? And is there a FAQ on best practices? Did I miss the relevant
section in the book? Thanks for the ongoing help - I'll be paying it forward!
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497374#497374
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
When connectors are taken apart, there should not be exposed hot contacts
that could short out. So I connect hot power wires to the female half of connectors.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497375#497375
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FRANK MCDONALD <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | TypeS Lithium Jump starter |
I was considering including a Ground Power Jack (Z-31A or B) in my RV with a fuel
injected engine.
After watching a fella use a TypeS Lithium Jump Starter.(12v with up to 8k mAh,
350A peak current) to jump start a GMC SUV, I wonder about its application to
my RV. It is very light weight and measures 7x3x1"; marketed as "Safe Jumper
Cable protects against polarity, over-discharge, low voltage, reverse charging,
short-circuit, overheat, spark-proof, and timing out."
I wonder if I could have two terminals (maybe an ANL block) in the cockpit area,
one wired to the battery/firewall ground and the other to the battery contactor
(bat side), forgoing the ground power contactor? The 4 AWG wire length less
than 2 ft. As needed the jumper cables from the TypeS could be applied internally
in flight or on the ground. With this "smart" device, would it be safe
to have these fat wires in the cabin and without circuit protection?
My thought is to have it available (especially on trip to isolated airstrips) as
needed for jump start and possibly use as inflight backup battery???
My electrical system will be single battery & alternator with an E Buss.
Does any of this make sense?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TypeS Lithium Jump starter |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A battery does not necessarily need protecting with a fuse. But the pilot
should have the means to shut off all sources of electrical power at the source.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497377#497377
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
At 11:54 AM 7/20/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>I'm wiring one of my first connectors, a 4-wire molex from wingtip
>light back to the wiring conduit and ultimately a faston tab on a
>panel switch. Is there a standard for which side is male and which female?
>The radios tend to come with female plugs, so I thought to extend
>that: everything that points either to center line or the panel is
>male. But is there a standard practice? And is there a FAQ on best
>practices? Did I miss the relevant section in the book? Thanks for
>the ongoing help - I'll be paying it forward!
I've seen come 'conventions' but they tend to
be institutional . . . I usually try to
put male pins in the cable plug and female
on the black box. You're more likely to damage
a male pin and they're a LOT easier to fix
on the end of a wire bundle . . . sometimes
impossible on a radio. But for pins out on
a cable run . . . take your pick.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
----- Original Message -----
From: "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 9:54:58 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: best practices for Molex?
I'm wiring one of my first connectors, a 4-wire molex from wingtip light back to
the wiring conduit and ultimately a faston tab on a panel switch. Is there
a standard for which side is male and which female?
The radios tend to come with female plugs, so I thought to extend that: everything
that points either to center line or the panel is male. But is there a standard
practice? And is there a FAQ on best practices? Did I miss the relevant
section in the book? Thanks for the ongoing help - I'll be paying it forward!
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497374#497374
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
Hi Preston;
Plug goes with what's removable (wing).
Receptacle goes with what's stationary (fuselage).
You get the idea.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 9:54:58 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: best practices for Molex?
I'm wiring one of my first connectors, a 4-wire molex from wingtip light back to
the wiring conduit and ultimately a faston tab on a panel switch. Is there
a standard for which side is male and which female?
The radios tend to come with female plugs, so I thought to extend that: everything
that points either to center line or the panel is male. But is there a standard
practice? And is there a FAQ on best practices? Did I miss the relevant
section in the book? Thanks for the ongoing help - I'll be paying it forward!
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497374#497374
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
> I've seen come 'conventions' but they tend to
> be institutional . . .
In the dozens of 'design to specs' products
I've worked, I don't recall any specification
dictating gender of the pins EXCEPT where
the device was form, fit and function for
an existing device.
Virtually all customers had a preference for
the style of connector but the pin out gender
was left open. Most connectors are
relatively 'scoop proof' these days as
illustrated by this combination of pins
and housing . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
Heres a good discussion of Molex connectors
http://tech.mattmillman.com/info/crimpconnectors/
-Kent
> On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:54 PM, prestonkavanagh wrote:
>
>
> I'm wiring one of my first connectors, a 4-wire molex from wingtip light back
to the wiring conduit and ultimately a faston tab on a panel switch. Is there
a standard for which side is male and which female?
>
> The radios tend to come with female plugs, so I thought to extend that: everything
that points either to center line or the panel is male. But is there a
standard practice? And is there a FAQ on best practices? Did I miss the relevant
section in the book? Thanks for the ongoing help - I'll be paying it forward!
>
> --------
> PBK3
> PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497374#497374
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
I *try* to keep power supply terminals female if possible. Murphy seems to
hang around my shop too much and even with the shroud around the pins on
Dsub connectors, I can find a way to drop one perfectly vertical on a bolt
head, etc, and find the power pin in a 37 pin connector.
To answer a question you didn't ask...Would I use a typical Molex if there
were any other option? No. Emphatically, NO. I know that a lot of mfgrs use
them and a lot of people have good results with them, but I've seen
countless examples in industrial equipment go intermittent or fail due to
corrosion on the mating surfaces, likely due to vibration. I've had less
than stellar service from them in a/c, too, with really poor performance
from the small ones used for signal wires. My go-to connector for about 90%
of stuff in the a/c is the subD. Anything under about 7A (with the machined
pins), and I'll go higher by ballasting a pair of pins on occasion. Gold
plated so no corrosion issues like Molex, and can be much more compact for
2 pin stuff by just using the pins/sockets/heat shrink with no shell as
detailed in the AEC book.
FWIW...
Charlie
On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 11:17 AM Kent or Jackie Ashton
wrote:
> kjashton(at)vnet.net>
>
> Here=99s a good discussion of Molex connectors
> http://tech.mattmillman.com/info/crimpconnectors/
>
> -Kent
>
> > On Jul 20, 2020, at 12:54 PM, prestonkavanagh <
> preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com>
> >
> > I'm wiring one of my first connectors, a 4-wire molex from wingtip ligh
t
> back to the wiring conduit and ultimately a faston tab on a panel switch.
> Is there a standard for which side is male and which female?
> >
> > The radios tend to come with female plugs, so I thought to extend that:
> everything that points either to center line or the panel is male. But i
s
> there a standard practice? And is there a FAQ on best practices? Did I
> miss the relevant section in the book? Thanks for the ongoing help - I'l
l
> be paying it forward!
> >
> > --------
> > PBK3
> > PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497374#497374
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TypeS Lithium Jump starter |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group
A note on jump starter packs. I purchased a 4,000amp 12 volt jump starter a while
back. I was working on a project and needed 1,500 watts for 15 seconds (a
little less than 140 amps) and not go below 10.9 volts. Although after speaking
with mfg. they did indeed test and saw 4,000 amps, it was for some nanosecond
at some way low voltage. Here's the real poop: it could hardly hold up 35 amps
for 15 seconds!
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200676383_200676383
Their# is 216-464-8131
Their 4,000 amp unit can put out ~ 40 amps for 3 seconds at minimum of 10.9 volts,
after 15 seconds down to ~35 amps and if it were cold probably 20 or 25 amps.
The battery is only 8aH.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497389#497389
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TypeS Lithium Jump starter |
At 01:31 PM 7/21/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group
>A note on jump starter packs. I purchased a 4,000amp 12 volt jump
>starter a while back. I was working on a project and needed 1,500
>watts for 15 seconds (a little less than 140 amps) and not go below
>10.9 volts. Although after speaking with mfg. they did indeed test
>and saw 4,000 amps, it was for some nanosecond at some way low
>voltage. Here's the real poop: it could hardly hold up 35 amps for 15 seconds!
>https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200676383_200676383
Yeah, there's been a host of similar products
with similar track records. Some of you may
remember the sensational Bolder Technologies,
thin metal film jelly-roll cells that caused
a big stir about 22 years ago:
https://tinyurl.com/yyw6a6j6
https://tinyurl.com/y42v9ztj
https://tinyurl.com/mu8oe6c
We had a sample array of cells in a 12v
configuration test at B&C about a year
or so earlier. Yup, those 2 A.h. cells
would dump current at over 400A when
loaded down to 9v!
They had a boat load of manufacturing
process problems to solve and never quite
made it. I think the company has been
sold several times and presently languishes
in India?
But just because a cell is small does not
necessarily mean it's not up to the stated
task. Take the EarthX product I published
test data on a few days ago. After 6+ years
the battery still stores 10+ a.h. of energy.
When loaded to 9v this morning, it still
offered respectable 400+ amps of cranking
current.
The cell's robustness is exceedingly
sensitive to production and design variables.
The smaller the cell, the greater the
sensitivity. EarthX appears to have their
ducks marching along in good order.
But as Ron has illustrated, not everyone
is so talented.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
At 12:01 PM 7/21/2020, you wrote:
>=C2 I *try* to keep power supply terminals female
>if possible. Murphy seems to hang around my shop
>too much and even with the shroud around=C2
>the=C2 pins on Dsub=C2 connectors, I can find a way
>to drop one perfectly vertical on a bolt head,
>etc, and find the power pin in a 37 pin connector.=C2 =C2
>
>To answer a question you didn't ask...Would I
>use a typical Molex if there were any other
>option? No. Emphatically, NO. I know that a lot
>of mfgrs use them and a lot of people have good
>results with them, but I've seen countless
>examples in industrial equipment go intermittent
>or fail due to corrosion on the mating surfaces,
>likely due to vibration. I've had less than
>stellar service from them in a/c, too, with
>really poor performance from the small ones used
>for signal wires. My go-to connector for about
>90% of stuff in the a/c is the subD. Anything
>under about 7A (with the machined pins), and
>I'll go higher by ballasting a pair of pins on
>occasion. Gold plated so no corrosion issues
>like Molex, and can be much more compact for 2
>pin stuff by just using the pins/sockets/heat
>shrink with no shell as detailed in the AEC book.
>
>FWIW...
>
>Charlie
Agreed. Paralleling ballasted
pins was employed on the Beech Horizon's DC
power distribution system. I first used
them on a power distribution controller
in the GQM-163 SSST prototype
https://tinyurl.com/yxwsd5p9
https://tinyurl.com/8x5rssq
https://tinyurl.com/6myc494
When considering a new connector
requirement, my first thought is
to figure out why a d-Sub WONT work.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LOC/VOR_G.S. Antenna |
| From: | "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com> |
I agree the VHF antenna (without the GS antenna ears) will work very well for receiving
the GS freqs.
I wanted to see how the performance could be enhanced with the antenna tuned to
the different bands. The only verifiable method to prove this would be testing
the antenna with and without the GS elements. I just don't have the time to
do this at the moment. A future test.
I am going crazy getting the Tailwind ready for it's first flight this weekend.
Everytime I try something another problem arises. Guess that is why this is
experimental aviation.
I do know that trimming the GS elements adjusted the antenna VSWR to the freq range
I wanted. I did this in real time by watching my NANOVNA output while trimming.
So the ears do have a major impact on the freq band.
I also ran the antenna to an antenna multi-coupler versus the splitter you show.
This also guarantees improved reception as the signal level is reduced with
the splitters.
--------
KC1DNJ
General Radiotelephone
Commercial SEL
A&P
Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497393#497393
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LOC/VOR_G.S. Antenna |
At 07:11 AM 7/22/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>I agree the VHF antenna (without the GS antenna ears) will work very
>well for receiving the GS freqs.
>
>I wanted to see how the performance could be enhanced with the
>antenna tuned to the different bands. The only verifiable method to
>prove this would be testing the antenna with and without the GS
>elements. I just don't have the time to do this at the moment. A future test.
I'm planning an experiment centered on
Jim Wier's suggestion for a dual band
121.5/406 Mhz ELT antenna. These two
frequencies are not harmonically related.
I've got the elements built. Planning
to explore balun options too. I'll document
the exercise and post here.
> I am going crazy getting the Tailwind ready for it's first flight
> this weekend. Everytime I try something another problem arises.
> Guess that is why this is experimental aviation.
Sounds like the engineering flight test hangar
at Beech!
>I do know that trimming the GS elements adjusted the antenna VSWR to
>the freq range I wanted. I did this in real time by watching my
>NANOVNA output while trimming. So the ears do have a major impact on
>the freq band.
When I get the ELT experiment done, I'll
repeat repeat your VOR-LOC/GS experiment
and see what I get. We'll compare
notes.
>I also ran the antenna to an antenna multi-coupler versus the
>splitter you show. This also guarantees improved reception as the
>signal level is reduced with the splitters.
Be wary of distribution amplifier type couplers.
The 'ideal' gain is zero. I.e. same output for a given
input at the frequencies of interest. Keep in mind that
our navigation equipment is sorta tailored to be compatible
with legacy practices for transmitted signals, typical
(passive) antennas, reasonably low loss coax, etc.
Adding active devices into the feedline has some
risk for (1) overloading the receiver(s) on
the ILS system and/or (2) increasing risks for
inter-modulation interference of desired signals
by unrelated/undesired signals.
Study the specs for your chosen device for assurance
that the thing adds value and does not add risk.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: best practices for Molex? |
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks to all, for both the pin gender and comments on Molex. I'll revise accordingly.
Cheers, PK
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497395#497395
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna Installation and Radiation |
Greetings,
I am a member of a composites aircraft community and the question came up
(again) about the installation location of these high frequency antennae.
Assuming that the airplane is build of mostly fiberglass (and not carbon
fiber) there is the temptation to mount these two antennae inside the
airframe so that the antennae are fully enclosed by the fuselage and the
airplane is more aerodynamic.sounds good so far.and each antenna will have a
ground plane.
So the questions are:
-Is the ground plane better to be square/ round/ or hexagon/ or some other
shape?
-If the diameter of the ground plane cannot be exactly a square and the same
dimension as indicated on the installation guide what is the problem(s) with
it being slightly to wide or slightly too narrow than spec, or if the
antenna is not installed in the exact center?
-The book says the two antennae should be mounted at least two feet from
each other so what if they were installed closer.or even co-located on the
same ground plane?
-What about mounting these masts near human body parts (ouch)?
-What about mounting these masts near other avionics or other electrical
equipment?
Thanks everyone for you kind assistance!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna Installation |
and Radiation
>
>So the questions are:
>
>-Is the ground plane better to be square/ round/
>or hexagon/ or some other shape?
Why not eliminate the need for ground planes with
vertically polarized dipoles mounted to inside surfaces
of empannage?
https://tinyurl.com/y3w4hf8y
>-If the diameter of the ground plane cannot be
>exactly a square and the same dimension as
>indicated on the installation guide what is the
>problem(s) with it being slightly to wide or
>slightly too narrow than spec, or if the antenna
>is not installed in the exact center?
ditch the ground planes
>-The book says the two antennae should be
>mounted at least two feet from each other so
>what if they were installed closer=85or even co-located on the same ground
plane?
Mount one on left side forward, the other
right side aft. Getting separation shouldn't
be a problem.
>-What about mounting these masts near human body parts (ouch)?
>
>-What about mounting these masts near other
>avionics or other electrical equipment?
back in the tail?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Smoker GFCI question |
Non aviation question for y'all: I just installed a new outlet on my patio,
so I can use my electric smoker and an electric fan without an extension
cord. The fan works great. The smoker is ok when first plugged in and
turned on so it connects to the WiFi. But a few minutes after turning the
smoker's heating element in, the GFCI trips.
It's a Char-Broil electric smoker, 750W. It's a new, weatherproof 15A GFCI.
Thoughts?
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna Installation |
and Radiation
Thanks Bob for the information.greatly appreciated.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna Installation
and Radiation
So the questions are:
-Is the ground plane better to be square/ round/ or hexagon/ or some other
shape?
Why not eliminate the need for ground planes with
vertically polarized dipoles mounted to inside surfaces
of empannage?
https://tinyurl.com/y3w4hf8y
-If the diameter of the ground plane cannot be exactly a square and the same
dimension as indicated on the installation guide what is the problem(s) with
it being slightly to wide or slightly too narrow than spec, or if the
antenna is not installed in the exact center?
ditch the ground planes
-The book says the two antennae should be mounted at least two feet from
each other so what if they were installed closer.or even co-located on the
same ground plane?
Mount one on left side forward, the other
right side aft. Getting separation shouldn't
be a problem.
-What about mounting these masts near human body parts (ouch)?
-What about mounting these masts near other avionics or other electrical
equipment?
back in the tail?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Smoker GFCI question |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/24/2020 8:07 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
> Non aviation question for y'all: I just installed a new outlet on my
> patio, so I can use my electric smoker and an electric fan without an
> extension cord. The fan works great. The smoker is ok when first
> plugged in and turned on so it connects to the WiFi. But a few minutes
> after turning the smoker's heating element in, the GFCI trips.
>
> It's a Char-Broil electric smoker, 750W. It's a new, weatherproof 15A
> GFCI.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
My 1st troubleshooting step is 'elimination'.
Have you tried a different device with roughly the same power
consumption (maybe a small electric space heater) to see if the breaker
still trips?
Have you tried the smoker on a different GFCI circuit?
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 primary elec sys wiring |
At 09:57 AM 7/23/2020, you wrote:
Good day Dear Mr.Nuckolls,
First, i really happy that i've met your book and web site with
plenty of extra useful information.I am aircraft maintenance engineer
(mostly Boeing type rated), have practical and theoretical skills.
but realized that need some more theoretical researches for better
elec system knowledge.
Those fundamentals will serve you well in your
new aviation endeavors. Your sense of craftsmanship
and knowledge of 'how the other guys do it' will
be useful.
Recently friend of mine asked me to help with his RV-10 electrical
and avionics hookup. Most of works are done except all wiring work. I
spent many hours doing research and stuck...we have perhaps unusual
config with one regular battery(RG-25XC)with Batteryminder charging
kit BM-AIK2A, just one primary alternator Plane Power 99-1012 with
built-in voltage regulator (unfortunately) and small cmart backup
battery TCW IBBA-12v-6AH. Ignition - Champion slick magnetos (6393
and 6350) , lefthand one with SS1001 booster.
You don't mention how this airplane will be used.
Day VFR, Day/Nite VFR, 'hard' IFR, extended flight
over unfriendly terrain? What avionics are anticipated?
Which devices will exploit the back-up battery?
Despite I am professional avionic I am really stuck and frustrated in myself...
You've come to the right place. I've taken the liberty
of signing you up as a participant on the AeroElectric-List.
We are a 'members only' consortium of aviation enthusiasts with
broad range of experience and skills. We strive for elegant
solutions based on good science.
When you receive the invitation to join us, just respond in
the affirmative and you'll be 'plugged in' to one of the
most comprehensive electrical/avionics communities on the
'net'.
Could you please, advise where can i find help with backbone elec system
architecture and etc...guys want to fly in couple of months))))
We're pleased to help. Tell us more about the project.
At firsts blush, your architecture requirements may
be exceedingly simple. Stand alone magnetos. Simple
one battery/one alternator configuration not unlike
hundreds of thousands of type certificated aircraft
that have flown successfully for a century. The
greatest difference will be the lack of an 'avionics
bus' and associated master switch. That concept was
hatched with poor understanding of then-brand-new
solid state avionics. The value of the avionics master
was limited from the beginning then and has no
value today.
Based on what we know now, your shared details may
prompt further suggestions. I've posted a 'first
pass on an architecture we're evolving here
on the AeroElectric-List. It shows an endurance
bus (common to single alternator designs), battery
bus and a brown-out booster. You may not need
any of these things we'll help you figure it out.
See: https://tinyurl.com/y6ku7lbh
Thank you again for your great work and support of aviation community!
You're most welcome my friend . . . it's what we do
here.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Smoker GFCI question |
Good questions, Charlie. I tried the following, all without tripping a GFCI:
- Plugged a 1500W induction cooktop into the patio GFCI. (It has a
2-wire plug. I don't have anything with a 3-wire plug that is anywhere
near the 750W smoker. Even my shop vac is 2-wire.)
- Plugged the smoker into a 3-wire extension cord and plugged that into
a GFCI in the kitchen.
- Plugged the smoker into the same 3-wire extension cord and plugged
that into the GFCI on the patio.
This is so weird.
-- Art Z.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 10:23 PM Charlie England
wrote:
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
>
> On 7/24/2020 8:07 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
> > Non aviation question for y'all: I just installed a new outlet on my
> > patio, so I can use my electric smoker and an electric fan without an
> > extension cord. The fan works great. The smoker is ok when first
> > plugged in and turned on so it connects to the WiFi. But a few minutes
> > after turning the smoker's heating element in, the GFCI trips.
> >
> > It's a Char-Broil electric smoker, 750W. It's a new, weatherproof 15A
> > GFCI.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > -- Art Z.
> >
> > Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
> My 1st troubleshooting step is 'elimination'.
>
> Have you tried a different device with roughly the same power
> consumption (maybe a small electric space heater) to see if the breaker
> still trips?
>
> Have you tried the smoker on a different GFCI circuit?
>
> Charlie
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what
am I? If not now, when?*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: Smoker GFCI question |
Hi Art Z;
There's a good possibility that it's the circuit breaker that is causing the problem.
Newer style circuit breakers are very sensitive to arcing, even very insignificant
arcing such as caused by a switch or thermostat. My neighbor brought
over a heater that he used in a fruit dryer. It was tripping circuits in his
new house. After taking it apart and finding nothing wrong, we plugged it in
at my home, and it ran fine. We have older circuit breakers. So he took it home,
changed one of his circuit breakers to the older style, and the problem disappeared.
Cheers! Stu..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Art Zemon" <art(at)zemon.name>
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 6:07:10 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Smoker GFCI question
Non aviation question for y'all: I just installed a new outlet on my patio, so
I can use my electric smoker and an electric fan without an extension cord. The
fan works great. The smoker is ok when first plugged in and turned on so it
connects to the WiFi. But a few minutes after turning the smoker's heating element
in, the GFCI trips.
It's a Char-Broil electric smoker, 750W. It's a new, weatherproof 15A GFCI.
Thoughts?
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LOC/VOR_G.S. Antenna |
Bob said:
"I'm planning an experiment centered on Jim Wier's suggestion for a dual
band 121.5/406 Mhz ELT antenna."
I needed a compact 121.5/406 antenna for my Longeze. I tried a few
configurations and the attached photo shows what worked the best. It's a
shortened dipole for 121.5 in parallel with a full size 406 dipole. It's
mounted to the pilot seat back. The feed line needs to leave the
intersection roughly along the virtual ground plane (actually, splitting
the difference between the two). I have better VSWR with this
configuration than I got with a couple of different (one portable, one for
permanent mount) antennas supplied by the ELT manufacturer (purchased for
test - so if anyone wants them, I'm happy to sell them...)
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze
Boulder / Longmont CO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna Installation |
and Radiation
Thanks Bob for the information.greatly appreciated.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna Installation
and Radiation
So the questions are:
-Is the ground plane better to be square/ round/ or hexagon/ or some other
shape?
Why not eliminate the need for ground planes with
vertically polarized dipoles mounted to inside surfaces
of empannage?
https://tinyurl.com/y3w4hf8y
-If the diameter of the ground plane cannot be exactly a square and the same
dimension as indicated on the installation guide what is the problem(s) with
it being slightly to wide or slightly too narrow than spec, or if the
antenna is not installed in the exact center?
ditch the ground planes
-The book says the two antennae should be mounted at least two feet from
each other so what if they were installed closer.or even co-located on the
same ground plane?
Mount one on left side forward, the other
right side aft. Getting separation shouldn't
be a problem.
-What about mounting these masts near human body parts (ouch)?
-What about mounting these masts near other avionics or other electrical
equipment?
back in the tail?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Smoker GFCI question |
Last step, if you're motivated, would be to swap the locations of the new
GFI and one of the older ones, and re-test.
On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 7:24 AM Charlie England
wrote:
> Good point! I haven't had to buy a gfi since the new stuff came out.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-google&sxsrf=ALeKk03W
mQrYXzER-XzhWixqNY56dEw4OA%3A1595765931111&ei=q3QdX834BfC3ggf5p5_gAw&q=
gfci+arc+fault+outlet&oq=gfci+arc+fault+outlet&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzL
Xdpei1zZXJwEAEYADICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAe
MgYIABAWEB4yBQghEKABOgQIABBHOgQIABBDUMFMWKVtYLyDAWgAcAF4AIABtAGIAZsIkgEDMC4
3mAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
>
>
> Sent from BlueMail <http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=15726>
> On Jul 26, 2020, at 12:39 AM, ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net wrote:
>>
>> Hi Art Z;
>> There's a good possibility that it's the circuit breaker that is causing
>> the problem. Newer style circuit breakers are very sensitive to arcing,
>> even very insignificant arcing such as caused by a switch or thermostat.
My
>> neighbor brought over a heater that he used in a fruit dryer. It was
>> tripping circuits in his new house. After taking it apart and finding
>> nothing wrong, we plugged it in at my home, and it ran fine. We have old
er
>> circuit breakers. So he took it home, changed one of his circuit breaker
s
>> to the older style, and the problem disappeared.
>> Cheers! Stu..
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From: *"Art Zemon" <art(at)zemon.name>
>> *To: *aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Sent: *Friday, July 24, 2020 6:07:10 PM
>> *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: Smoker GFCI question
>>
>> Non aviation question for y'all: I just installed a new outlet on my
>> patio, so I can use my electric smoker and an electric fan without an
>> extension cord. The fan works great. The smoker is ok when first plugged
in
>> and turned on so it connects to the WiFi. But a few minutes after turnin
g
>> the smoker's heating element in, the GFCI trips.
>>
>> It's a Char-Broil electric smoker, 750W. It's a new, weatherproof 15A
>> GFCI.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery Contactor Location |
| From: | "Rossco" <rv8torsa(at)gmail.com> |
Im building a Rans S21 and the battery is located behind the seats in the baggage
area. As per standard practice I installed the contactor (relay) next to the
battery. But this places it right next to the header fuel tank. Although this
is an aluminum tank it still concerns me that I have a live electrical device
next to 6 gals of avgas. Am I being overly worried?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497421#497421
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/e2cb2b51_8467_4674_9576_d9e5fd7593d2_178.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 primary elec sys wiring |
At 09:57 AM 7/23/2020, you wrote:
>Recently friend of mine asked me to help with his RV-10 electrical
>and avionics hookup. Most of works are done except all wiring work.
>I spent many hours doing research and stuck...we have perhaps unusual
>config with one regular battery(RG-25XC)with Batteryminder charging
>kit BM-AIK2A, just one primary alternator Plane Power 99-1012 with
>built-in voltage regulator (unfortunately) and small cmart backup
>battery TCW IBBA-12v-6AH. Ignition - Champion slick magnetos (6393 and 6350)
> lefthand one with SS1001 booster.
Alex, there's another simple process that will help
move planning and design for your project forward.
It's called a Load Analysis . . . an activity that
starts early on in the design of a TC aircraft.
It's simply an organized listing of every anticipated
electrical load. For our purposes, I've expanded the
data set to separate out load groups by the bus that
powers the group. I've added space to call out the
proposed size of circuit protection and the wire
size for the feeder.
There are examples of these studies in Excel on
my website at
https://tinyurl.com/9rt6ymn
browse through those and you'll get the idea.
You MIGHT want to do three load-sheets. One for
the main bus, endurance bus and battery bus.
Here's a blank form that helps put the thing
together.
https://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj
If you know some current draws, fill them in
but for now . . . just identify every electrical
demand and hypothesize how you'll get power
to each device.
Use a pencil and keep clean-rub eraser handy.
You may revise this thing several times. Alternatively,
do your own in Excel.
Later on, you'll want to consider filling the
columns as operating requirements for the various
flight conditions are defined.
Once the architecture and energy management
details are known, you'll be 90% of the way
there . . . all the rest is wires, terminals,
crimp tools and string ties.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Smoker GFCI question |
Yeah... no. I'm not that motivated. LOL.
I used a short extension cord this afternoon (instead of the long one with
a droplight that I used for testing yesterday. The smoker is working fine
and the four trout are looking finer!
My guess is that the smoker's cord is stiffer than the extension cords so,
when I shut the weather cover on the outlet, the cord is putting some
mechanical stress on the outlet. Nothing else makes any sense to me.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 3:31 PM Charlie England
wrote:
> Last step, if you're motivated, would be to swap the locations of the new
> GFI and one of the older ones, and re-test.
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 7:24 AM Charlie England
> wrote:
>
>> Good point! I haven't had to buy a gfi since the new stuff came out.
>>
>> https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-google&sxsrf=ALeKk03
WmQrYXzER-XzhWixqNY56dEw4OA%3A1595765931111&ei=q3QdX834BfC3ggf5p5_gAw&q
=gfci+arc+fault+outlet&oq=gfci+arc+fault+outlet&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3
dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAEYADICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQF
hAeMgYIABAWEB4yBQghEKABOgQIABBHOgQIABBDUMFMWKVtYLyDAWgAcAF4AIABtAGIAZsIkgED
MC43mAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
>>
>>
>> Sent from BlueMail <http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=15726>
>> On Jul 26, 2020, at 12:39 AM, ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Art Z;
>>> There's a good possibility that it's the circuit breaker that is causin
g
>>> the problem. Newer style circuit breakers are very sensitive to arcing,
>>> even very insignificant arcing such as caused by a switch or thermostat
. My
>>> neighbor brought over a heater that he used in a fruit dryer. It was
>>> tripping circuits in his new house. After taking it apart and finding
>>> nothing wrong, we plugged it in at my home, and it ran fine. We have ol
der
>>> circuit breakers. So he took it home, changed one of his circuit breake
rs
>>> to the older style, and the problem disappeared.
>>> Cheers! Stu..
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From: *"Art Zemon" <art(at)zemon.name>
>>> *To: *aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Sent: *Friday, July 24, 2020 6:07:10 PM
>>> *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: Smoker GFCI question
>>>
>>> Non aviation question for y'all: I just installed a new outlet on my
>>> patio, so I can use my electric smoker and an electric fan without an
>>> extension cord. The fan works great. The smoker is ok when first plugge
d in
>>> and turned on so it connects to the WiFi. But a few minutes after turni
ng
>>> the smoker's heating element in, the GFCI trips.
>>>
>>> It's a Char-Broil electric smoker, 750W. It's a new, weatherproof 15A
>>> GFCI.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>>
>>>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what
am I? If not now, when?*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna Installation and |
Radiation
Don't forget that while a homebrew ELT antenna may work better than the
supplied version, it probably isn't legal. Unlike most radio stuff, the
antenna is usually part of the certification of the ELT, and ELTs must be
certificated in the USA; even in homebuilts.
Won't matter until that picky a/w inspector comes to sign off the plane, or
if you get past that, dealing with the Insurance company after you survive
a crash.
Charlie
On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:42 AM wrote:
> Thanks Bob for the informationgreatly appreciated.
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:17 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna
> Installation and Radiation
>
>
> So the questions are:
>
> -Is the ground plane better to be square/ round/ or hexagon/ or some othe
r
> shape?
>
>
> Why not eliminate the need for ground planes with
> vertically polarized dipoles mounted to inside surfaces
> of empannage?
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y3w4hf8y
>
>
> -If the diameter of the ground plane cannot be exactly a square and the
> same dimension as indicated on the installation guide what is the
> problem(s) with it being slightly to wide or slightly too narrow than spe
c,
> or if the antenna is not installed in the exact center?
>
>
> ditch the ground planes
>
>
> -The book says the two antennae should be mounted at least two feet from
> each other so what if they were installed closeror even co-locat
ed on the
> same ground plane?
>
>
> Mount one on left side forward, the other
> right side aft. Getting separation shouldn't
> be a problem.
>
>
> -What about mounting these masts near human body parts (ouch)?
>
> -What about mounting these masts near other avionics or other electrical
> equipment?
>
>
> back in the tail?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 primary elec sys wiring |
At 04:06 PM 7/26/2020, you wrote:
>Oh, thank you, this will be my main task for now
>- load analysis=C2 and a wise idea on how to power every unit...
>started to make the ELA list, then will think
>how to divide load between buses...=C2
It gets even better. Your architecture and loads
documents are the foundation for expeditious
generation of a ship's wire book.
As an electron herder on the heavy iron, you'll
already have a reverence for the universal
language of schematics for describing the
ship's electrics.
Take a peek at the documents posted at:
https://tinyurl.com/yytrxofg
https://tinyurl.com/y23kjwu6
These are examples of how your architecture
drawing (road map) and loads analysis (table
of contents) become the first sheets to a
page-per-system wirebook that would make your
project easily understood, repaired or modified
in the future no matter what language was
spoken by the technician.
If you're a CAD driver that will import
.dwg files, 95% of the work on your projects
documents is already done. You can download
the AutoCAD files from my website for importing
appropriate pages into your own work.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Standard mags: Lycoming |
| From: | "John M Tipton" <johntiptonuk(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Guys
With 'standard' mags as supplied by Lycoming, and an RV9a with ACS Key switch WITHOUT
starter position and using 'push switch' to operate starter, should the
engine be started on LEFT MAG ONLY.
John
PS: Aircraft Spruce photo: copyright acknowledged
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497432#497432
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/electrical_ignition_switches_acs_keyed_ignition_switches_1_108.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Standard mags: Lycoming |
You want to start on the mag with the impulse coupling. On most engines, that
would be the left mag. But you should check to make sure.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497433#497433
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Smoker GFCI question |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The length of the cord is most likely the problem. A longer cord has
more capacitance which allows a few more milliamps to leak to ground.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497434#497434
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor Location |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
As long as that battery box is securely bolted down so that it will not
break loose in a crash, then there is nothing to worry about.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497435#497435
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PC board fabrication |
| From: | "Goodw1n" <MelbsJSnells(at)yahoo.com> |
Hey, there are a lot of companies that are doing such a job. It is not hard to
make a click on Google and to find a good team. As others said, there are good
prices and bad quality, and there are big prices and good quality, it depends
only one you. It is like finding a good software optimizer, there are best pc
optimizer, there are also the worst pc optimizer, it depends on how much you
are ready to pay. Good luck to you!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497436#497436
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Smoker GFCI question |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Good point! I haven't had to buy a gfi since the new stuff came out=2E
http
s://www=2Egoogle=2Ecom/search?client=ms-android-google&sxsrf=ALeKk03WmQ
rYXzER-XzhWixqNY56dEw4OA%3A1595765931111&ei=q3QdX834BfC3ggf5p5_gAw&q=gf
ci+arc+fault+outlet&oq=gfci+arc+fault+outlet&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXd
pei1zZXJwEAEYADICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMg
YIABAWEB4yBQghEKABOgQIABBHOgQIABBDUMFMWKVtYLyDAWgAcAF4AIABtAGIAZsIkgEDMC43m
AEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp
=81=A3Sent from BlueMail
=8B
On Jul 26, 2020, 12:39 AM, at 12:39 AM, ashleysc@broadstripe=2Enet
wrote:
>Hi Art Z;
>There's a good possibility that it's the circuit breake
r that is
>causing the problem=2E Newer style circuit breakers are very sen
sitive to
>arcing, even very insignificant arcing such as caused by a switc
h or
>thermostat=2E My neighbor brought over a heater that he used in a fru
it
>dryer=2E It was tripping circuits in his new house=2E After taking it a
part
>and finding nothing wrong, we plugged it in at my home, and it ran
>f
ine=2E We have older circuit breakers=2E So he took it home, changed one
>o
f his circuit breakers to the older style, and the problem
>disappeared=2E
>Cheers! Stu=2E=2E
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: "Art Zemon" <
art@zemon=2Ename>
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics=2Ecom
>Sent: Friday, J
uly 24, 2020 6:07:10 PM
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Smoker GFCI question
>
>Non aviation question for y'all: I just installed a new outlet on my
>p
atio, so I can use my electric smoker and an electric fan without an
>exten
sion cord=2E The fan works great=2E The smoker is ok when first
>plugged in
and turned on so it connects to the WiFi=2E But a few minutes
>after turni
ng the smoker's heating element in, the GFCI trips=2E
>
>It's a Char-Broil
electric smoker, 750W=2E It's a new, weatherproof 15A
>GFCI=2E
>
>Thought
s?
>
>-- Art Z=2E
>
>Sent from my phone=2E Please excuse brevity and biza
rre typos=2E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Standard mags: Lycoming |
Depends on what the mags are. If they both have impulse couplings you can start
on both, I think.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 27, 2020, at 9:26 AM, John M Tipton wrote:
>
>
> Hi Guys
>
> With 'standard' mags as supplied by Lycoming, and an RV9a with ACS Key switch
WITHOUT starter position and using 'push switch' to operate starter, should the
engine be started on LEFT MAG ONLY.
>
> John
>
> PS: Aircraft Spruce photo: copyright acknowledged
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497432#497432
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/electrical_ignition_switches_acs_keyed_ignition_switches_1_108.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna Installation and |
Radiation
The insurance company will not have anything to say about it unless there
is some weird liability claim arising from a failure of the ELT. Not worth
worrying about.
On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 16:18 Charlie England wrote:
> Don't forget that while a homebrew ELT antenna may work better than the
> supplied version, it probably isn't legal. Unlike most radio stuff, the
> antenna is usually part of the certification of the ELT, and ELTs must be
> certificated in the USA; even in homebuilts.
>
> Won't matter until that picky a/w inspector comes to sign off the plane,
> or if you get past that, dealing with the Insurance company after you
> survive a crash.
>
> Charlie
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:42 AM wrote:
>
>> Thanks Bob for the informationgreatly appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
>> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert L.
>> Nuckolls, III
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 9:17 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder and/or ADSB Antenna
>> Installation and Radiation
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> So the questions are:
>>
>> -Is the ground plane better to be square/ round/ or hexagon/ or some
>> other shape?
>>
>>
>> Why not eliminate the need for ground planes with
>> vertically polarized dipoles mounted to inside surfaces
>> of empannage?
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/y3w4hf8y
>>
>>
>> -If the diameter of the ground plane cannot be exactly a square and the
>> same dimension as indicated on the installation guide what is the
>> problem(s) with it being slightly to wide or slightly too narrow than sp
ec,
>> or if the antenna is not installed in the exact center?
>>
>>
>> ditch the ground planes
>>
>>
>>
>> -The book says the two antennae should be mounted at least two feet from
>> each other so what if they were installed closeror even co-loca
ted on the
>> same ground plane?
>>
>>
>> Mount one on left side forward, the other
>> right side aft. Getting separation shouldn't
>> be a problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> -What about mounting these masts near human body parts (ouch)?
>>
>> -What about mounting these masts near other avionics or other electrical
>> equipment?
>>
>>
>> back in the tail?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Smoker GFCI question |
Joe,
The longer cord (adding the extension cord) allows the thing to work. The
GFCI trips when I do not use an extension cord.
I'll do more experiments tomorrow. It's raining cats and dogs today and I'm
that *that* into testing the GFCI to stand in the rain and plug stuff in.
:-P
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 9:40 AM user9253 wrote:
>
> The length of the cord is most likely the problem. A longer cord has
> more capacitance which allows a few more milliamps to leak to ground.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497434#497434
>
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what
am I? If not now, when?*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Standard mags: Lycoming |
The common configuration is to have the impulse coupling on the left, which
means left on and right off for starting.
On July 27, 2020 09:31:49 "John M Tipton" wrote:
>
>
> Hi Guys
>
> With 'standard' mags as supplied by Lycoming, and an RV9a with ACS Key
> switch WITHOUT starter position and using 'push switch' to operate starter,
> should the engine be started on LEFT MAG ONLY.
>
> John
>
> PS: Aircraft Spruce photo: copyright acknowledged
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497432#497432
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/electrical_ignition_switches_acs_keyed_ignition_switches_1_108.jpg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z11 field supply circuit protection |
| From: | "draker" <ryan-ae(at)existens.org> |
Hi, this is my first E-mail to the list. I've done some searches but came up empty
for answers. I'm finalizing the electrical schematic for my RV-7 build, which
is very loosely based on the AeroElectric Z11 example. Single alternator,
LR-3 regulator. A few questions:
1. Z-11 shows the field supply circuit running from the fuse block stud through
a 22AWG fusable link, through the battery/alt switch, through a 5A circuit breaker,
and ending up at the voltage regulator (pin 6). Since the circuit is protected
by the 5A breaker, what is the purpose of the fusable link, and what are
the negative consequences of omitting the fusable link?
2. Should current drawn through the above circuit be considered for the purpose
of load analysis to help me choose the right size alternator? If so, what range
of currents should I expect through it?
3. Same question for the bus voltage sense (pin 3) on the regulator. Does that
draw significantly current?
Thank you!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497449#497449
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Standard mags: Lycoming |
On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:30 AM John M Tipton
wrote:
> johntiptonuk(at)hotmail.com>
>
> Hi Guys
>
> With 'standard' mags as supplied by Lycoming, and an RV9a with ACS Key
> switch WITHOUT starter position and using 'push switch' to operate starter,
> should the engine be started on LEFT MAG ONLY.
>
> John
>
> The engine should be started with the impulse coupled mag 'on' (ungrounded
P lead), and the other P lead grounded. What you describe is how the
switch *should* operate, but it's easy to verify operation for yourself.
Without the P leads connected to the switch, Measure resistance from each P
lead terminal to the ground terminal, 1st with the switch 'off', then in
'L', then in 'R'. Both P lead terminals should show dead short to the
ground terminal with the switch 'Off'. The 'L' terminal should show an
open circuit (infinitely high resistance) and the 'R' terminal should show
a short to ground with the switch in 'L', and the reverse in 'R'. With the
switch in 'Both', both terminals should show open to the ground terminal.
(Don't forget that if you're touching the terminals with your fingers, your
body will conduct slightly, so depending on the meter, you might see some
high but not infinite resistance when the switch is open.)
The left mag is *typically* the impulse mag, but it's pretty easy to check.
The impulse mag has what appears to be a spacer that's about an inch thick
between the body of the mag and the engine. So the 'taller' mag is the
impulse mag.
Charlie
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z11 field supply circuit protection |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
1. The purpose of the fuselink is to protect the wire between the main power
bus and the circuit breaker. If that wire is very short and installed with good
workmanship and the chances of shorting to ground are slim, then you could
eliminate the fuselink.
2. Yes, the field current needs to be considered. The current depends on the
alternator size and the alternator load. 3 amps is a guess.
3. Voltage sense current is insignificant.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497452#497452
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z11 field supply circuit protection |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/27/2020 6:22 PM, draker wrote:
>
> Hi, this is my first E-mail to the list. I've done some searches but came up
empty for answers. I'm finalizing the electrical schematic for my RV-7 build,
which is very loosely based on the AeroElectric Z11 example. Single alternator,
LR-3 regulator. A few questions:
>
> 1. Z-11 shows the field supply circuit running from the fuse block stud through
a 22AWG fusable link, through the battery/alt switch, through a 5A circuit
breaker, and ending up at the voltage regulator (pin 6). Since the circuit is
protected by the 5A breaker, what is the purpose of the fusable link, and what
June 30, 2020 - July 27, 2020
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pm