AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-po
August 25, 2020 - September 20, 2020
> performance (except perhaps for charging time)
> is unaffected by bus voltage. Note: the red plot
> is what the battery delivered 'off the shelf' after
> having been used/stored/maintained at intervals
> over the past 5 or so years.
>
> I not that the battery's demonstrated capacity is
> on the order of 10.3 AH . . . down slightly from
> demonstrated 11.6 AH when received as new.
>
> These data are consistent with an article I
> found on powerstream.com
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yakthgt6
>
> Where the author demonstrates the profound difference
> in performance between Lithium Iron versus the
> Lithium Polymer products. The article shows how the popular
> and quite common Lithium Polymer cells fully charge at
> 4.2 volts with stored energy profoundly affected by
> the top-off voltage. Same goes for Lithium Ion cells
> widely offered as rechargeable power for a constellation
> of consumer products.
>
> Touchstone of note: No matter what claims are made
> for the capacity of these cells, the real capability
> of an 18650 Li-Ion cell is on the order of 2800 mAH. This
> is easily confirmed by studies of published engineering data
> sheets for name brand cells like Panasonic, A123,
> Sanyo, etc.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y32rh8ym
>
> Those ads on eBay touting 4000-10,000 mAH are blowing
> smoke up your pant leg. Now, I not implying that
> these cells are not serviceable products . . . price/
> performance can be quite good but unless verified
> by published performance data sheets, be skeptical
> of stellar capacity claims.
>
> That leaves us with the lowly Lithium Iron Phosphate
> cell. It has the poorest capacity for unit volume of
> all the popular products . . . but they are relatively
> immune to catastrophic failure. Hence, the chemistry
> of choice for the 'big guys' in TSO batteries for
> CT aircraft. Typical energy ratings for the 18650
> LiFePO4 are on the order of 1000-1500 mAH.
>
> A noteworthy fallout of my studies suggests there
> is no value in running the bus at any higher
> than 14.0 volts for the LiFePO4 products.
>
> Just thought I'd share some of the the bucket
> of data point's I've gathered so far . . .
> I'm still pondering the burned alternator
> coils on the Revmaster engine . . . got some
> ideas I want to massage on the test bench . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
Due to some strange behavior on my EFIS shortly after takeoff, I theorized
that I might have a noisy electrical system that was causing EFIS problems.
The charging system (SD-8) doesn't kick in until I take off and achieve
higher RPM. I could not reproduce the problem on the ground so I could not
easily hook up an oscilloscope. Maybe because static runs don't achieve the
same RPM at full throttle, and high speed taxi runs on a 3000 ft runway
achieve higher RPM but don't last long enough?
So, I did another flight and took off and when the problem happened again,
I turned off the alternator so I was just running on the battery. The EFIS
problems continued so I don't believe I have a noisy electrical system
causing the problem. I also swapped out the regulator and replaced the
battery just to be thorough!
My real question is related to what happens when I disconnect a PM
alternator from the electrical system between the regulator and the bus.
Does it keep generating 8 amps that now has to be dissipated as heat by the
voltage regulator? I did notice some noise, or a change in the noise, in my
headset when I disconnected the alternator/regulator.
Also, what would happen if I disconnected the two leads for the alternator
so that they weren't even connected to a regulator?
Thanks,
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
At 02:35 PM 8/25/2020, you wrote:
>Due to some strange behavior on my EFIS shortly
>after takeoff, I theorized that I might have a
>noisy electrical system that was causing EFIS problems.
Is this a new condition or has always
existed?
>The charging system (SD-8) doesn't kick in until
>I take off and achieve higher RPM. I could not
>reproduce the problem on the ground so I could
>not easily hook up an oscilloscope. Maybe
>because static runs don't achieve=C2 the same RPM
>at full throttle, and high speed taxi runs on a
>3000 ft runway achieve higher RPM but don't last long enough?
Fair hypothesis . . .
>So, I did another flight and took off and when
>the problem=C2 happened again, I turned off the
>alternator so I was just running on the battery.
>The EFIS problems continued so I don't believe I
>have a noisy electrical system causing the
>problem. I also swapped out the regulator and
>replaced the battery just to be thorough!
Good . . .
>My real question is related to what happens when
>I disconnect a PM alternator from the electrical
>system between the regulator and the bus. Does
>it keep generating 8 amps that now has to be
>dissipated as heat by the voltage regulator? I
>did notice some noise, or a change in the noise,
>in my headset when I disconnected the alternator/regulator.
Depends on the pedigree of the regulator.
Some designs do indeed 'short' the alternator
windings to regulate power at the battery.
When ship's systems are using power, the need
to short-out excess energy is minimized. But
you're right, if this is a shunt style R/R,
reducing output current to zero MAY cause
the regulator to severely abuse the alternator
mistakenly thinking that ship's loads are still
there . . . just very small.
>Also, what would happen if I disconnected the
>two leads for the alternator so that they
>weren't even connected to a regulator?
Conduct the experiment. Opening the AC power
BETWEEN alternator and rectifier/regulator is
the preferred method for shutting down the
system. All energies in the alternator
system go to zero. See:
https://tinyurl.com/7vp9g4e
Unhook the alternator and do a battery only
flight.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some interesting observations |
At 11:06 AM 8/25/2020, you wrote:
>Bob I am often in awe of your energy in serving the OBAM
>community..thank you for your missives, they inspire neophytes like
>me to get "electron savvy"
>Best Regards,
>Bob Verwey
>082 331 2727
To be inspiring is a teacher's prime
directive . . . thank you sir.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 5:34 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 02:35 PM 8/25/2020, you wrote:
>
> Due to some strange behavior on my EFIS shortly after takeoff, I theorized
> that I might have a noisy electrical system that was causing EFIS problems.
>
>
> Is this a new condition or has always
> existed?
>
I thought it was a new condition. My plane has been down for quite a while
during an engine rebuild. I am trying to fly it and monitor temperatures on
my new engine but all the engine data is fluctuating wildly. I looked back
at some old data and I could see the same symptoms occasionally, but it was
more mild and very infrequent. I just never noticed it. Now, it is
happening nearly continuously and the variations are far more extreme. The
EFIS has three other issues as well. It has lost the GPS signal, it always
stops recording data to the USB stick once the temperature oscillations
start, and it only sometimes displays the ADSB-in data that I am feeding
it. One thing in common with all of these is that they are connected to
serial ports on the EFIS. Either four things just simultaneously failed or
there is a problem with the EFIS serial ports. That's my current theory.
> Also, what would happen if I disconnected the two leads for the alternator
> so that they weren't even connected to a regulator?
>
>
> Conduct the experiment. Opening the AC power
> BETWEEN alternator and rectifier/regulator is
> the preferred method for shutting down the
> system. All energies in the alternator
> system go to zero. See:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/7vp9g4e
>
> Unhook the alternator and do a battery only
> flight.
>
Yes, that is exactly what I am planning for the next flight. Additionally,
the EIS is remotely mounted but it has a display. I intend to fly with a
GoPro aimed at it to see if the CHT values that it displays match those on
the EFIS. If there is simply a communication problem or some source of
noise in the EFIS, then the EIS should be displaying the correct CHT values
and not wildly fluctuating.
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
>=C2 Is this a new condition or has always
>=C2 existed?
>
>I thought it was a new condition. My plane has
>been down for quite a while during an engine
>rebuild. I am trying to fly it and monitor
>temperatures on my new engine but all the engine
>data is fluctuating=C2 wildly. I looked back at
>some old data and I could see the same symptoms
>occasionally, but it was more mild and very
>infrequent. I just never noticed it. Now, it is
>happening nearly continuously and the variations
>are far more extreme. The EFIS has three other
>issues as well. It has lost the GPS signal, it
>always stops recording data to the USB stick
>once the temperature oscillations start, and it
>only sometimes displays the ADSB-in data that I
>am feeding it. One thing in common with all of
>these is that they are connected to serial ports
>on the EFIS. Either four things just
>simultaneously failed or there is a problem with
>the EFIS serial ports. That's my current theory.
Serial data are pretty robust with respect
to noises . . . I'm pondering the possibility
of a grounding issue for the analog inputs.
Analog temperature data signals, whether thermocouple
or RTC are small and the fact that the whole
suite of measurements are flaky suggests
something common to signal conditioning.
>=C2 Unhook the alternator and do a battery only
>=C2 flight.
>
>Yes, that is exactly what I am planning for the
>next flight. Additionally, the EIS is remotely
>mounted but it has a display. I intend to fly
>with a GoPro aimed at it to see if the CHT
>values that it displays match those on the EFIS.
>If there is simply a communication problem or
>some source of noise in the EFIS, then the EIS
>should be displaying the correct CHT values and not wildly fluctuating.
Is there a downloadable installation
manual for your EFIS?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
> On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:31 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com> wrote:
>
> Serial data are pretty robust with respect
> to noises . . . I'm pondering the possibility
> of a grounding issue for the analog inputs.
> Analog temperature data signals, whether thermocouple
> or RTC are small and the fact that the whole
> suite of measurements are flaky suggests
> something common to signal conditioning.
The interesting thing is that the bad values apply across all channels, incl
uding ones that aren=99t even hooked up, like cylinders 5 and 6. Anoth
er one is coolant temperature. It always should read 59 deg for no signal si
nce it is not hooked up. My data recording at 5 Hz captured a single inciden
ce of -32000 degF and then back to 59 until recording stopped. Values in the
-32000 range have shown up on CHT channels and others as well.
The manufacturer is mystified. I am collecting more data today, checking all
ground connections, and then will probably ship it to them for testing tomo
rrow.
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:25 AM Ron Springer wrote:
>
> On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:31 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> Serial data are pretty robust with respect
> to noises . . . I'm pondering the possibility
> of a grounding issue for the analog inputs.
> Analog temperature data signals, whether thermocouple
> or RTC are small and the fact that the whole
> suite of measurements are flaky suggests
> something common to signal conditioning.
>
>
> The interesting thing is that the bad values apply across all channels,
> including ones that aren=99t even hooked up, like cylinders 5 and 6
. Another
> one is coolant temperature. It always should read 59 deg for no signal
> since it is not hooked up. My data recording at 5 Hz captured a single
> incidence of -32000 degF and then back to 59 until recording stopped.
> Values in the -32000 range have shown up on CHT channels and others as
> well.
>
> The manufacturer is mystified. I am collecting more data today, checking
> all ground connections, and then will probably ship it to them for testin
g
> tomorrow.
>
> Ron
>
I hate saying this out loud, but have you tried whacking the case to see if
you can stimulate the glitches? IIRC, you said it only happens in flight,
right? Vibration can generate all kinds of weird symptoms in electronics if
there are intermittent connections involved.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
No problem saying it. That is worth trying!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 26, 2020, at 1:00 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
>
>
>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:25 AM Ron Springer wrote:
>>
>>>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:31 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aer
oelectric.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>> Serial data are pretty robust with respect
>>> to noises . . . I'm pondering the possibility
>>> of a grounding issue for the analog inputs.
>>> Analog temperature data signals, whether thermocouple
>>> or RTC are small and the fact that the whole
>>> suite of measurements are flaky suggests
>>> something common to signal conditioning.
>>
>> The interesting thing is that the bad values apply across all channels, i
ncluding ones that aren=99t even hooked up, like cylinders 5 and 6. An
other one is coolant temperature. It always should read 59 deg for no signal
since it is not hooked up. My data recording at 5 Hz captured a single inci
dence of -32000 degF and then back to 59 until recording stopped. Values in t
he -32000 range have shown up on CHT channels and others as well.
>>
>> The manufacturer is mystified. I am collecting more data today, checking a
ll ground connections, and then will probably ship it to them for testing to
morrow.
>>
>> Ron
>
> I hate saying this out loud, but have you tried whacking the case to see i
f you can stimulate the glitches? IIRC, you said it only happens in flight, r
ight? Vibration can generate all kinds of weird symptoms in electronics if t
here are intermittent connections involved.
> Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group I have a Rotax 914 with heavy duty starter. There is a casting at the
rear of the starter with an untapped 1/4" hole perhaps 1/2" thick. Is there any
reason why I couldn't use this as my only engine ground? I can't use the engine
lift point as ground because the wire will interfere with cooling air baffle
air flow down and around the B&C SD20S alternator. There is a tapped 6mm hole
on the 2 aft cylinders but the starter is closer to the firewall ground pass
through. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498003#498003
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
>
>I hate saying this out loud, but have you tried whacking the case to
>see if you can stimulate the glitches? IIRC, you said it only
>happens in flight, right? Vibration can generate all kinds of weird
>symptoms in electronics if there are intermittent connections involved.
>Charlie
You're telling your age my friend . . . I'll bet you
had real world experience with vacuum tube electronics!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
At 12:45 PM 8/26/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group I have a Rotax 914 with heavy duty starter. There is a
>casting at the rear of the starter with an untapped 1/4" hole
>perhaps 1/2" thick. Is there any reason why I couldn't use this as
>my only engine ground?
Is this a thru hole . . . can you use a bolt and nut
to effect the mash-up?
Got a nice flat surface to mate up with your
terminal?
Get the terminal flat compressed to the
crankcase with a stout (grade 8) bolt
having a washer under the head of the bolt
against the other side of the terminal.
I'm presuming there's a nut on the other
side of the casting.
Torque it up until you're worried for the
future of your 1/4" ratchet and call it
good.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 4:50 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> I hate saying this out loud, but have you tried whacking the case to see
> if you can stimulate the glitches? IIRC, you said it only happens in
> flight, right? Vibration can generate all kinds of weird symptoms in
> electronics if there are intermittent connections involved.
> Charlie
>
>
> You're telling your age my friend . . . I'll bet you
> had real world experience with vacuum tube electronics!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Uh...yep. Tube-top-thump was an essential troubleshooting tool; even the
musicians knew that one. Still have a scar on my hand somewhere from
touching the wrong (750V) terminal in the guts of a Marshall guitar amp I
was repairing, some time in the mid 1970s. I've forgotten a lot of stuff;
not that smell....
But I've even seen solid state components that were shock-sensitive when
they started going south.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Actually that ground lug on the starter is the ideal location for the engine ground
cable.
Current will not have to pass through the engine block to crank the engine.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498010#498010
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground?(PS) |
Torque it up until you're worried for the
future of your 1/4" ratchet and call it
good.
P.S. as a point of reference, the terminals on
a PC680 battery are 6 mm female threads in brass . . .
Emacs!
Your primary concern at this junction
is integrity under engine vibration and
temperature variations. Your hardware
will be steel and torqued to a lot
higher forces/pressures than the battery . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
>
>Uh...yep. Tube-top-thump was an essential
>troubleshooting tool; even the musicians knew
>that one. Still have a scar on my hand somewhere
>from touching the wrong (750V) terminal in the
>guts of a Marshall guitar amp I was repairing,
>some time in the mid 1970s. I've forgotten a lot of stuff; not that
smell....=C2
Speaking of smells . . . the youngster's look
at you incredulously when you assert that sticking
your nose into the cabinet after removing the back
was a powerful diagnostic tool.
Power transformers, electrolytic caps, paper
caps, plastic caps, resistors, flyback transformers,
resistors, etc. all had their own characteristic
odors when 'smoked'. Staring with overt symptoms
one could be halfway to a diagnosis by simply sniffing
as you pulled the back off the set.
Not so much these days . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
Just did a test flight and shot some video of the EIS to compare to the EFIS
. I haven=99t even looked at it yet because I did something else for t
he first time. I shut off the magneto and everything got perfectly quiet on t
he EFIS, along with the noise that seems to be getting louder in my headset o
n each flight!
I never really focused on the magneto because it was brand new. But, let me t
ell you about the old mag. I hand prop my VariEze on the magneto only and su
ddenly I couldn=99t get it started any more. I suspected the mag was w
eak. I opened it to adjust the egap and the slot wasn=99t big enough t
o adjust it. Then I dug through the original builder=99s paperwork and
learned it had 1100 hours on it and probably was never serviced. So, I just
bought a new one. It would have been more obvious if I had flown the new ma
g immediately but I installed it and then decided to tear down the engine an
d do a bunch of other mods.
I am guessing that if the wires are the problem, installing a new, much stro
nger magneto can make things a lot worse?
Ron
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 26, 2020, at 6:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele
ctric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
>>
>>
>> Uh...yep. Tube-top-thump was an essential troubleshooting tool; even the m
usicians knew that one. Still have a scar on my hand somewhere from touching
the wrong (750V) terminal in the guts of a Marshall guitar amp I was repair
ing, some time in the mid 1970s. I've forgotten a lot of stuff; not that sme
ll....=C3=82
>
>
> Speaking of smells . . . the youngster's look
> at you incredulously when you assert that sticking
> your nose into the cabinet after removing the back
> was a powerful diagnostic tool.
>
> Power transformers, electrolytic caps, paper
> caps, plastic caps, resistors, flyback transformers,
> resistors, etc. all had their own characteristic
> odors when 'smoked'. Staring with overt symptoms
> one could be halfway to a diagnosis by simply sniffing
> as you pulled the back off the set.
>
> Not so much these days . . .
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
I am still not sure why it only seems to occur in the air. More vibration? I
t shakes pretty good at full throttle on the ground too. The ground runs hav
e primarily been done the VariEze nose on the ground. But, the plane is nonc
onductive. Could the proximity of the ground have an effect?
Ron
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 26, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Ron Springer wrote:
>
> =EF=BBJust did a test flight and shot some video of the EIS to compare t
o the EFIS. I haven=99t even looked at it yet because I did something e
lse for the first time. I shut off the magneto and everything got perfectly q
uiet on the EFIS, along with the noise that seems to be getting louder in my
headset on each flight!
>
> I never really focused on the magneto because it was brand new. But, let m
e tell you about the old mag. I hand prop my VariEze on the magneto only and
suddenly I couldn=99t get it started any more. I suspected the mag wa
s weak. I opened it to adjust the egap and the slot wasn=99t big enoug
h to adjust it. Then I dug through the original builder=99s paperwork a
nd learned it had 1100 hours on it and probably was never serviced. So, I ju
st bought a new one. It would have been more obvious if I had flown the new m
ag immediately but I installed it and then decided to tear down the engine a
nd do a bunch of other mods.
>
> I am guessing that if the wires are the problem, installing a new, much st
ronger magneto can make things a lot worse?
>
> Ron
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 6:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroe
lectric.com> wrote:
>>>
>> =EF=BB
>>>
>>>
>>> Uh...yep. Tube-top-thump was an essential troubleshooting tool; even the
musicians knew that one. Still have a scar on my hand somewhere from touchi
ng the wrong (750V) terminal in the guts of a Marshall guitar amp I was repa
iring, some time in the mid 1970s. I've forgotten a lot of stuff; not that s
mell....=C3=82
>>
>>
>> Speaking of smells . . . the youngster's look
>> at you incredulously when you assert that sticking
>> your nose into the cabinet after removing the back
>> was a powerful diagnostic tool.
>>
>> Power transformers, electrolytic caps, paper
>> caps, plastic caps, resistors, flyback transformers,
>> resistors, etc. all had their own characteristic
>> odors when 'smoked'. Staring with overt symptoms
>> one could be halfway to a diagnosis by simply sniffing
>> as you pulled the back off the set.
>>
>> Not so much these days . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
At 06:28 PM 8/26/2020, you wrote:
>Just did a test flight and shot some video of
>the EIS to compare to the EFIS. I haven=99t even
>looked at it yet because I did something else
>for the first time. I shut off the magneto and
>everything got perfectly quiet on the EFIS,
>along with the noise that seems to be getting
>louder in my headset on each flight!
Aha! One more flight test:
Leave the mag wire totally unhooked at
the engine end. Of course this leaves
you an always-hot mag but the p-lead
effects are now out of the diagnostic
loop.
If the effect goes away, you're looking
at p-lead; if it stays you're looking
at plug wires.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
I had a tv that would periodically just lose the picture and a very hard
slap to the left side of the case would instantly bring it back. Sometimes
it took two very hard slaps!
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 1:50 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> I hate saying this out loud, but have you tried whacking the case to see
> if you can stimulate the glitches? IIRC, you said it only happens in
> flight, right? Vibration can generate all kinds of weird symptoms in
> electronics if there are intermittent connections involved.
> Charlie
>
>
> You're telling your age my friend . . . I'll bet you
> had real world experience with vacuum tube electronics!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Anti corrosion on connections? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group, thank you for answer on using starter for ground on my Rotax 914. The
answer is yes I can put an An-4 nut on the other side of bolt.
Question: Should I use any anti corrosion goop on my starter ground joint? Something
like Al-Ox which is a green goop you use when "tipping" aluminium home wires
with copper in wire nut? Or??
Next question is for Ring terminals, PIDG Fast-Ons and D-Sub connectors, should
any goop be applied to these connections? CRC 2-56? Or? Thx. Ron P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498021#498021
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anti corrosion on connections? |
At 09:38 PM 8/26/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group, thank you for answer on using starter for ground on my
>Rotax 914. The answer is yes I can put an An-4 nut on the other side of bolt.
>
>Question: Should I use any anti corrosion goop on my starter ground
>joint? Something like Al-Ox
>which is a green goop you use when "tipping" aluminium home wires
>with copper in wire nut? Or??
Nope. A properly torqued fastener provides
a gas-tight connection where it matters. The
visible surfaces may get pretty ugly with age
but INSIDE, it will be just as bright and clean
as it was when you made up the joint 10 years ago.
>Next question is for Ring terminals, PIDG Fast-Ons and D-Sub connectors,
>should any goop be applied to these connections? CRC 2-56? Or? Thx. Ron P
Only as local extremes suggest . . . like tropical
sea shores or ocean based seaplanes. Then
consult your local mechanics for their favorite
potions demonstrated to forestall . . . not halt but
forestall environmental destruction of the
airplane.
But for the vast majority of our favorite
pleasure machines no special treatments are
necessary or useful.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 primary elec sys wiring |
| From: | "airknot" <airkbp(at)gmail.com> |
Dear Gents,
Revised my ELA calculations with assumtions:
-Comm system is working continiously during flight
-To start and taxi phases power consumtion for backupbatteries charging (G5, 2
-Skyview dispalys and IBBS backup battery) was added
-Pitot heating works during takeoff, approach and landing phases(icing conditions)
-fuel pump works during start, taxi, t/o, landing
please, critic me )
https://tinyurl.com/y6q2jrma
p.s. feel myself extremely self-doubt...
to check all real-life consumptions I must build primary elec system on airplane.
and hookup all the devices. or i am not right (
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498025#498025
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
On 2020-08-26, at 18:45, rparigoris wrote:
> Hi Group I have a Rotax 914 with heavy duty starter. There is a casting at the
rear of the starter with an untapped 1/4" hole perhaps 1/2" thick. Is there
any reason why I couldn't use this as my only engine ground?
Ron - thats what I have done on the Rotax 912ULS in my Europa - see <http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/starter_wires_a.php>. It seemed the obvious and sensible choice.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV10 primary elec sys wiring |
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 3:47 AM airknot wrote:
>
> Dear Gents,
>
> Revised my ELA calculations with assumtions:
> -Comm system is working continiously during flight
> -To start and taxi phases power consumtion for backupbatteries charging
> (G5, 2 -Skyview dispalys and IBBS backup battery) was added
> -Pitot heating works during takeoff, approach and landing phases(icing
> conditions)
> -fuel pump works during start, taxi, t/o, landing
>
> please, critic me )
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y6q2jrma
>
> p.s. feel myself extremely self-doubt...
>
> to check all real-life consumptions I must build primary elec system on
> airplane. and hookup all the devices. or i am not right (
>
> You're doing fine; it takes multiple iterations to debug a design.
Go through it line by line, and play 'what if' for every situation you can
think of, related to that device, that leaves you able to make choices. If
night flight, lights on continuously. If mech fuel pump failure, boost pump
on continuously. Etc etc.
Go through again, line by line, asking how/when the device uses power, and
whether it's significant. The big deal is total energy (power *
time-active). Stuff that is almost never active can be ignored as part of
your continuous load. Ex: trim, flaps, comm's transmit current draw (which
is several times higher than 'idle' current), etc etc. Bob mentioned
'watt-seconds' earlier. If you have only one alternator, then after it
fails (assume that it will), then the battery(s) has some number of
watt-seconds of energy available in its 'tank'. An example battery might
have 12V * 18AH = 260 watt-hours, * 60 minutes = 12960 watt-seconds.
(Please check the math...) If, for example, the trim is activated for 2
seconds, it uses 0.15A * 12V = 1.8 watts, * 2 seconds = 3.6 watt-seconds
of energy while trimming. You probably couldn't use more than 100
watt-seconds from the battery for trimming, on the entire flight. Point is,
it's such a tiny percentage that it can be ignored, unless you have dozens
of those tiny items which could become significant if all operated, and all
operated continuously.
Examples of things that could be tweaked in the spreadsheet (not a
line-by-line analysis):
The comm can be listed at its lowest current. It only consumes the max
while transmitting, which is a tiny fraction of total time.
If you're going to fly IFR, the pitot heat should be listed as continuous,
because you may be in a marginal icing situation where you can't turn it
off. (That's what the 'worst case' thing means.)
You could probably zero out the trim current. Like the radio, it's only
operating a tiny fraction of the time, and shouldn't draw any current at
all while not operating.
Ask the mfgr about the oil cooler servo; like the trim servos, it shouldn't
draw any current unless operating.
Boost pump should be shown as continuous. 'Worst case' of mechanical fuel
pump failure during cruise would require running boost until landing.
Having fun yet?
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 primary elec sys wiring |
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
Very nice tutorial.
If the boost pump is normally off in cruise I'd also ignore that load
for an alternator failed scenario, same as for landing lights.
Ken
On 27/08/2020 9:58 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 3:47 AM airknot > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Dear Gents,
>
> Revised my ELA calculations with assumtions:
> -Comm system is working continiously during flight
> -To start and taxi phases power consumtion for backupbatteries
> charging (G5, 2 -Skyview dispalys and IBBS backup battery) was added
> -Pitot heating works during takeoff, approach and landing
> phases(icing conditions)
> -fuel pump works during start, taxi, t/o, landing
>
> please, critic me )
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y6q2jrma
>
> p.s. feel myself extremely self-doubt...
>
> to check all real-life consumptions I must build primary elec
> system on airplane. and hookup all the devices. or i am not right (
>
> You're doing fine; it takes multiple iterations to debug a design.
>
> Go through it line by line, and play 'what if' for every situation you
> can think of, related to that device, that leaves you able to make
> choices. If night flight, lights on continuously. If mech fuel pump
> failure, boost pump on continuously. Etc etc.
> Go through again, line by line, asking how/when the device uses power,
> and whether it's significant. The big deal is total energy (power *
> time-active). Stuff that is almost never active can be ignored as part
> of your continuous load. Ex: trim, flaps, comm's transmit current draw
> (which is several times higher than 'idle' current), etc etc. Bob
> mentioned 'watt-seconds' earlier. If you have only one alternator,
> then after it fails (assume that it will), then the battery(s) has
> some number of watt-seconds of energy available in its 'tank'. An
> example battery might have 12V * 18AH = 260 watt-hours, * 60 minutes =
> 12960 watt-seconds. (Please check the math...) If, for example, the
> trim is activated for 2 seconds, it uses 0.15A * 12V = 1.8 watts, *
> 2 seconds = 3.6 watt-seconds of energy while trimming. You probably
> couldn't use more than 100 watt-seconds from the battery for trimming,
> on the entire flight. Point is, it's such a tiny percentage that it
> can be ignored, unless you have dozens of those tiny items which could
> become significant if all operated, and all operated continuously.
>
> Examples of things that could be tweaked in the spreadsheet (not a
> line-by-line analysis):
>
> The comm can be listed at its lowest current. It only consumes the max
> while transmitting, which is a tiny fraction of total time.
> If you're going to fly IFR, the pitot heat should be listed as
> continuous, because you may be in a marginal icing situation where you
> can't turn it off. (That's what the 'worst case' thing means.)
> You could probably zero out the trim current. Like the radio, it's
> only operating a tiny fraction of the time, and shouldn't draw any
> current at all while not operating.
> Ask the mfgr about the oil cooler servo; like the trim servos, it
> shouldn't draw any current unless operating.
> Boost pump should be shown as continuous. 'Worst case' of mechanical
> fuel pump failure during cruise would require running boost until landing.
> Having fun yet?
>
> Charlie
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 primary elec sys wiring |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The battery contactor only draws 0.75 amps. See https://www.gigavac.com/sites/default/files/GX11B-GX12B-GX21B-Temp-Considerations.pdf
The USB sockets will not draw any current unless something is plugged in.
Even then, the 12 volt current draw will be less than half of the 5 volt current
(assuming switching power supply)
The clock only uses 0.1 amp. See https://iflyei.com/wp-content/uploads/SC-5-OI.pdf
The com radio only uses 0.6 amps unless the transmit button is continuously held
in.
The TCW - SERVO VALVE will not run continuously. Do not count its current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498037#498037
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV10 primary elec sys wiring |
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
On 8/17/2020 9:41 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> With that engine, why are you including a backup
> battery? A 8-10A standby alternator on a vacuum
> pump pad offers UNLIMITED endurance with about
> a 4 pound penalty. I go out of my way to avoid
> adding batteries to a design over and above
> those normally expected to start engines and
> back up the primary alternator.
>
> Do you not PLAN to conduct periodic airworthiness
> checks on the main battery?
>
> Bob . . .
>
OP - I too have an RV10 with the 2 mag engine and a 3 display GRT
panel. I'll just add a couple of observations based on 9+ years and
1200+ hours of IFR intensive operation.
Bobs point above is dead on target for RV10 folks in particular - I have
a 40 amp main alt and a 20amp alt on the vacuum pad (B&C externally
controlled). That 2nd amp removes the main failure point that threatens
to actually shorten a flight and force a alternative landing. I had a
number of backup batteries connected to various avionic components but
found that it was a challenge maintaining them to the proper standard
for true reliance in case of failure. They've all come out and I simply
focus on my main battery. 2 Alternators and 1 battery is a real sweet spot.
But that's not what i have. I installed a Z-14 -2 alts, 2 batts, 2
buses, also known by Bob as 'everything and the kitchen sink' electrical
system. It's overkill by many measures but I love it. However I'd
recommend that the 'Z' with 2 alts and 1 battery is the optimal config
from a price-performance perspective. And like Bob said, get rid of
those other backup batteries.
It is commonly said that:
> Another point is to protect equipment during engine start
Absolutely NO equipment needs to be protected during engine start.
There is no such thing as voltage spikes during starting. That is an
old wive's tale. Are you going to believe rumors based on 1950's
technology or Bob N. who has written the book on aircraft electrical
systems?
True enuff I suppose but my panel did suffer from low voltage sagging during some
starts (cold wx combined with panel running before start with a less than fresh
battery and no extra avionics switches to manage total power reqmts). It
now simply reboots the displays if the voltage is too low but earlier it was
possible to corrupt the software if the load was abnormally interrupted. A SW
bug for sure but it happened.
Those displays, which come on with my master switch, are amp hogs. So I added
a now discontinued product from TCW - IPS (intelligent power stabilizer) which
has kept me from losing my displays for 5 years now. A well managed, big battery
combined with modern avionics should avoid this issue entirely.
So I'd suggest adding a small alternator on the vacuum pad, eliminating the extra
batteries and not worrying about the 60 amp alternator's ability to handle
anything you throw at it. It still has a battery behind it - the most reliable
component in the system. The Z designs are really well crafted and don't require
modification to use them successfully.
BTW, the Odyssey AGM batteries are really easy to manage and maintain with a volt
meter. Read the owners manual and follow it to the letter: 1) make sure your
charging system is set to run between 14.1 and 14.7 volts 2) Use a proper charger
if and when needed, 3) Keep it fully charged when inactive, 4) if 24hours
after charging, the voltage is less than 12.5 volts (75% capacity), replace
it. You might do that at 12.6 volts.
Bill "not reading the owners manual cost me 3 or 4 batteries before I became fully
literate" Watson
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
At 05:40 AM 8/27/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>On 2020-08-26, at 18:45, rparigoris wrote:
>
> >> Hi Group I have a Rotax 914 with heavy duty starter. There is
> a casting at
> >> the rear of the starter with an untapped 1/4" hole perhaps 1/2" thick.
> >> Is there any reason why I couldn't use this as my only engine ground?
>
> > Ron - Tthat's what I have done on the Rotax 912ULS in my Europa
> > see
> <http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/starter_wires_a.php>.
> > It seemed the obvious and sensible choice.
Rowland, thank you for posting this image . . . for
two reasons.
First, I was unaware of the existence of that boss
on the starter end bell casting . . . you're right,
that's a really good place to get a good electrical
connection to crankcase!
Second, I have concerns for the mechanical
integrity of this installation as photographed.
I perceived that the fat wires are probably
$high$ 'aircraft wire' . . . nice stuff . . .
stiff as a board. The wire has no mechanical
support TO THE ENGINE in close proximity to
the bolted joint.
The combination of stiff, heavy wire and
no support imparts vibrational stresses to
the terminal flag.
This is the CRANKCASE GROUND . . . usually
a very critical wire in the system.
We normally try to make that connection
with super flexible conductors that are
(1) resistance to flexure failures, (2)
does not impart strong flexure forces to the
terminal.
Alternatively, consider using welding cable.
Again, were looking for a bazillion strands
of copper cat-hair for conductors and flexible-
friendly installation. This article suggests
a method for soldering terminals onto fat
wires
https://tinyurl.com/ct36xen
. . . I need to upgrade that article to
suggest welding cable with double-wall
heat shrink as opposed to the stiff-stuff.
https://tinyurl.com/yysahtcf
Recommend you consider upgrading the two
strands of fat-wire that come off the back
of your engine. Welding cable with heat shrink
dressing won't require additional mechanical
support and you'll enjoy working with this
stuff.
But thanks for sharing that picture . . . that's
indeed an excellent crankcase connection point.
Bob . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Bob "I need to upgrade that article to suggest welding cable with double-wall
heat shrink as opposed to the stiff-stuff"
I plan on using B&C #4 Super-Flex Battery Leads going from firewall to engine x2:
https://bandc.com/product/super-flex-battery-lead-red-raw-material/ when you
suggest using double wall heat shrink, are you suggesting to use only at terminal
lugs or the entire length of cable?? What type of heat shrink are you suggesting?
Thx. Ron
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498041#498041
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z13-8 main alternator troubleshooting |
| From: | "rvtach" <rvtach(at)msn.com> |
Hello expert electron herders-
I'm just finishing the phase one flight test on my O-360 powered RV-7A wired per
Z13-8 and I'm trying to troubleshoot a main alternator problem which is that
the alternator isn't putting out any voltage. I replaced the voltage regulator
(at less than $20 it seemed like a reasonable first step) and still no power
from the B&C 60 amp alternator.
Due to some poor planning on my part the VR is in a somewhat inaccessible location
which may have contributed to me hooking up the IASF leads on the replacement
VR incorrectly- I connected the "S" lead (which is jumpered to the "A" lead)
to the "I" tab. Wonder if that may have fried the voltage regulator?
At the hangar today I took some measurements and here's what I found:
Good continuity from the main bus, through the D/C power master switch to the VR-166
voltage regulator A/S terminal. 0.5 ohms.
Good continuity from the VR to the Alternator Field plug. 0 ohms.
Good continuity from the VR case to Firewall forest of tabs ground. 0 ohms.
With Master switch on and battery voltage at 12.5V there is no voltage at the alternator
field plug. It seems like there should be something on the order of
12V at the field plug, no?
Any suggestions before I just go out and buy a new VR-166?
A final note- I truly appreciate all the information I've gleaned from this forum
over the past 10+ years. Because of everything I've learned from Bob and all
the rest of you guys this is the only electrical problem I've had- everything
else has been perfect. Beyond my hopes!!
Cheers-
Jim
--------
Jim McChesney
Tucson, AZ
RV-7A Finishing Kit
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498043#498043
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
On 2020-08-27, at 20:07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
> I have concerns for the mechanical
> integrity of this installation as photographed.
>
> I perceived that the fat wires are probably
> $high$ 'aircraft wire' . . . nice stuff . . .
> stiff as a board. The wire has no mechanical
> support TO THE ENGINE in close proximity to
> the bolted joint.
>
> The combination of stiff, heavy wire and
> no support imparts vibrational stresses to
> the terminal flag.
>
> This is the CRANKCASE GROUND . . . usually
> a very critical wire in the system.
>
> We normally try to make that connection
> with super flexible conductors that are
> (1) resistance to flexure failures, (2)
> does not impart strong flexure forces to the
> terminal.
Bob - thank you so much for pointing out my error. The wire is indeed 4AWG Nyvin
- I received a length of it as a gift from a fellow builder. I guess I was so
happy to get such high-spec stuff free that I didnt consider the problems its
stiffness would cause in a connexion subject to vibration. Like most things,
its really obvious when I actually THINK about it! As you probably know, Rotax
engines are famous for shaking like a terrier with a rat on both startup and
shut-down, so I should have engaged brain a bit sooner.
Ill seek a UK supplier of welding cable in short lengths to replace the 2 fat cables
to the starter. The terminals on my present wires are crimped using a hand
hydraulic crimper - would that still be OK for welding cable, or is it important
to solder the joints on such wire terminations?
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
>I=99ll seek a UK supplier of welding cable in
>short lengths to replace the 2 fat cables to the
>starter. The terminals on my present wires are
>crimped using a hand hydraulic crimper - would
>that still be OK for welding cable, or is it
>important to solder the joints on such wire terminations?
Here's one option:
https://tinyurl.com/y535olwm
Crimp or solder . . . either process
skillfully applied produces the holy
grail of wire termination - gas tightness.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
Is there any real advantage to connecting the engine ground close to the
starter motor, rather than somewhere else on the engine block, or is the
advantage more theoretical? Wouldn't factors other than resistance through
the engine block, such as convenience and access, be more important
considerations?
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 11:58 PM Rowland Carson
wrote:
> rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>
>
> On 2020-08-27, at 20:07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> > I have concerns for the mechanical
> > integrity of this installation as photographed.
> >
> > I perceived that the fat wires are probably
> > $high$ 'aircraft wire' . . . nice stuff . . .
> > stiff as a board. The wire has no mechanical
> > support TO THE ENGINE in close proximity to
> > the bolted joint.
> >
> > The combination of stiff, heavy wire and
> > no support imparts vibrational stresses to
> > the terminal flag.
> >
> > This is the CRANKCASE GROUND . . . usually
> > a very critical wire in the system.
> >
> > We normally try to make that connection
> > with super flexible conductors that are
> > (1) resistance to flexure failures, (2)
> > does not impart strong flexure forces to the
> > terminal.
>
>
> Bob - thank you so much for pointing out my error. The wire is indeed 4AW
G
> Nyvin - I received a length of it as a gift from a fellow builder. I gues
s
> I was so happy to get such high-spec stuff free that I didn=99t con
sider the
> problems its stiffness would cause in a connexion subject to vibration.
> Like most things, it=99s really obvious when I actually THINK about
it! As
> you probably know, Rotax engines are famous for shaking like a terrier wi
th
> a rat on both startup and shut-down, so I should have engaged brain a bit
> sooner.
>
> I=99ll seek a UK supplier of welding cable in short lengths to repl
ace the 2
> fat cables to the starter. The terminals on my present wires are crimped
> using a hand hydraulic crimper - would that still be OK for welding cable
,
> or is it important to solder the joints on such wire terminations?
>
> in friendship
>
> Rowland
>
>
> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
> | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
The advantage I see is that there are fewer 'joints' between the starter
winding and that ground return attach point. Not likely to be a 'real
world' problem, but tying directly to the starter does eliminate the sum
of resistance for all those mating surfaces, which likely have some form
of non-conductive sealant used. Again, not likely to be a real world issue.
Charlie
On 8/28/2020 9:18 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> Is there any real advantage to connecting the engine ground close to
> the starter motor, rather than somewhere else on the engine block, or
> is the advantage more theoretical? Wouldn't factors other than
> resistance through the engine block, such as convenience and access,
> be more important considerations?
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 11:58 PM Rowland Carson
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> On 2020-08-27, at 20:07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> > wrote:
>
> > I have concerns for the mechanical
> > integrity of this installation as photographed.
> >
> > I perceived that the fat wires are probably
> > $high$ 'aircraft wire' . . . nice stuff . . .
> > stiff as a board. The wire has no mechanical
> > support TO THE ENGINE in close proximity to
> > the bolted joint.
> >
> > The combination of stiff, heavy wire and
> > no support imparts vibrational stresses to
> > the terminal flag.
> >
> > This is the CRANKCASE GROUND . . . usually
> > a very critical wire in the system.
> >
> > We normally try to make that connection
> > with super flexible conductors that are
> > (1) resistance to flexure failures, (2)
> > does not impart strong flexure forces to the
> > terminal.
>
>
> Bob - thank you so much for pointing out my error. The wire is
> indeed 4AWG Nyvin - I received a length of it as a gift from a
> fellow builder. I guess I was so happy to get such high-spec stuff
> free that I didnt consider the problems its stiffness would cause
> in a connexion subject to vibration. Like most things, its really
> obvious when I actually THINK about it! As you probably know,
> Rotax engines are famous for shaking like a terrier with a rat on
> both startup and shut-down, so I should have engaged brain a bit
> sooner.
>
> Ill seek a UK supplier of welding cable in short lengths to
> replace the 2 fat cables to the starter. The terminals on my
> present wires are crimped using a hand hydraulic crimper - would
> that still be OK for welding cable, or is it important to solder
> the joints on such wire terminations?
>
> in friendship
>
> Rowland
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
At 09:18 AM 8/28/2020, you wrote:
>Is there any real advantage to connecting the engine ground close to
>the starter motor, rather than somewhere else on the engine block,
>or is the advantage more theoretical? Wouldn't factors other than
>resistance through the engine block, such as convenience and access,
>be more important considerations?
Good question.
Absolutely. For example, do you want your crankcase
ground to run to the other end of the engine to access
a bolt near the starter on a Lycoming or would some
fastener local to the firewall ground stud be
more appropriate?
Variation in path resistance across the engine
would be difficult to measure much less drive
an architecture decision. Short and sweet is
almost always best.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
At 10:38 AM 8/28/2020, you wrote:
>The advantage I see is that there are fewer 'joints' between the
>starter winding and that ground return attach point. Not likely to
>be a 'real world' problem, but tying directly to the starter does
>eliminate the sum of resistance for all those mating surfaces, which
>likely have some form of non-conductive sealant used. Again, not
>likely to be a real world issue.
Yeah, if one could measure point-to-point
resistances across the engine, there would
no doubt be some variations due to factors
you've cited . . . but looking for the
the 'best' path would not be easy or
productive.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Use 1/4" hole on starter for engine ground? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Connecting the ground cable directly to the starter is theoretically better, but
connecting to the engine block is good enough. But if the starter location is
more convenient and uses less cable, then why not?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498054#498054
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Double wall heat shrink for welding cable? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Bob you wrote this on a replyand I don't understand it "I need to upgrade that
article to suggest welding cable with double-wall heat shrink as opposed to
the stiff-stuff"
I plan on using B&C #4 Super-Flex Battery Leads going from firewall to engine x2:
https://bandc.com/product/super-flex-battery-lead-red-raw-material/ when you
suggest using double wall heat shrink, are you suggesting to use double wall
heat shrink tubing only at terminal lugs or for the entire length of the welding
cable?? What type of heat shrink is your suggestion? Thx. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498056#498056
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z13-8 main alternator troubleshooting |
>
>Any suggestions before I just go out and buy a new VR-166?
Go ahead and get the new regulator then rig
this test setup.
https://tinyurl.com/yxhknfhk
Conduct test as written. This will narrow
down your field of investigation by half.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Double wall heat shrink for welding cable? |
At 02:05 PM 8/28/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob you wrote this on a replyand I don't understand it "I need to
>upgrade that article to suggest welding cable with double-wall heat
>shrink as opposed to the stiff-stuff"
>I plan on using B&C #4 Super-Flex Battery Leads going from firewall
>to engine x2:
>https://bandc.com/product/super-flex-battery-lead-red-raw-material/
>when you suggest using double wall heat shrink, are you suggesting
>to use double wall heat shrink tubing only at terminal lugs or for
>the entire length of the welding cable?? What type of heat shrink is
>your suggestion? Thx. Ron P.
Only at the ends as illustrated in my article.
Here's a good example:
https://tinyurl.com/y2eyw8k3
3/4" unshrunk with 3:1 shrink ratio. Short
pieces fit easily over your crimped/soldered
terminal but will definitely shrink to a
good fit with sealant oozing out both ends.
The high shrink ratio makes the finished
shrink wall thicker for improved flexure
support . . . the sealant keeps the moisture
out.
Good stuff Maynard!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax ignition coil faston size |
Does anyone know the size of the faston for the rotax ignition connectors?
Thanks
Willl
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax ignition coil faston size |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi William I have a 914 and am close to installing the grounding cut off pins on
the ignition connector. It's a round crimp on pin that has a rubber seal. I
purchased an extra set from Rotax to do a practice crimp or two. Is this the
pin that you want a dimension for? Rotax wants you to use shielded wire and shield
it at both ends. If this is not the connector, where is the faston located?
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498063#498063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
I've had a few weeks (and road trips) to apply some
'asphalt engineering' effort to a combination of
threads discussing relative fragility of the
Revmaster 'dual' alternators. The latest thread
explored the notion that changing from SLVA to
LiFePO4 was much more likely to burn an alternator winding.
This is not a new topic here on the List . . . found
a few other postings on the same problem.
Without talking to the designers, it's
difficult to KNOW the original thinking behind the
design. We also cannot know what efforts the factory
has applied to this issue over the years. But I
think we're on pretty firm ground to assert that
the current design is marginal with respect to
thermal robustness.
Alternator windings should be as reliable as
propeller bolts. You might smoke some regulators,
trash some batteries, find yourself wanting for a
few more amps of output . . . but suffering destruction
of the windings suggests the alternator is a weak
link in the system.
Based on the drawing that Dan supplied a few weeks
ago it seems that the designers intended that only
one of the two windings be used at the same time.
I'm guessing that this is a "normal-and-spare"
design philosophy. Therefore, any time a winding fails due
to exceedance of thermal limits, the other winding
was off line.
We don't know the internal configuration of the
recommended rectifier/regulator but it's almost
certain to included silicon controlled rectifier
and one diode in series on each conduction half-
cycle. That's 3, silicon junctions in series
that carry alternator output current.
My current hypothesis suggests that it would be
much better to use BOTH windings all the time. Reduce
the current in each winding by 50% or more. It seems
better to have one configuration that's bulletproof
than two relatively fragile configurations that 'back
each other up'.
Here's the line of reasoning supporting this design
goal. Recall the bits-and-pieces of design? (1)
properties of materials, (2) management of energy
and (3)refinement of process. In this case, our
weak link seems to center on an energy management
issue. Some copper windings are heating past
practical operating limits. This can be either
an insulation failure, wire failure or both.
Properties of Materials:
We know that copper has a pretty significant positive
resistance coefficient for temperature. We observed
this in the temperature vs. current observations
in battery contactors:
https://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t
https://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo
We also considered the physics of why an overloaded
wire tends to burn open at the center of a free-air
span.
As copper heats up, resistance goes up, voltage drop
goes up, dissipated energy goes up, temperature rises
some more . . . and you can see where this is headed.
Take this tid-bit of knowledge about copper
wire and consider how many times you've observed or
heard of the windings or lead wires of any system
failing due to overheat.
I've seen some windings burn up on alternators for
reasons OTHER than poor thermal management. I've never
had a winding burn on my car. I've had one short
and start popping fuses . . . but I doubt that it
was due to burned insulation or melted wires!
The point is, ANY configuration that demonstrates
repeated failure to do open wires or cooked insulation
is MARGINAL at best; hazardous at worst.
Okay, how to reduce the load in Revmaster alternator
wires . . . hopefully without compromising ability
to deliver ENERGY into the system. Here's the energy
management consideration:
We know that PM alternators have a checkered history
of performance . . . but mostly due to stone simple
regulators that DO NOT offer active current limiting.
Furhter, many versions use a full wave bridge consisting
of two pairs of junction diode and silicon controlled
rectifiers. Alternator output current flows through
two of these devices with total drop on the
order of 2 volts. 2 volts out of a 14v system is
a substantial proportion of energy . . . something
on the order of 15 to 25 watts that needs to be
managed in those cute little castings . . . but
that's another story.
Harking back to the earliest days of my studies
in electron herding, ac rectifiers were vacuum
tubes (not junctions) and ac power sources were transformers
plugged into the wall (not spinning magnets).
Except for the systems with very low energy
requirements (table top radios), the rectifiers
were dual diodes driven from either side of a
center tapped transformer secondary. This configuration
had some profound effects in thermal management.
EACH diode carries 1/2 the total current. These
devices have considerable resistance . . . watts
I(squared) x R so if you reduce current by 1/2,
watts goes down to 1/4. Same thing happens in the
transformer secondary . . . the secondary wire
size can be made smaller in a trade off between
energy lost and transformer size.
Refinement of process:
So take a peek at the simplified proposal diagram.
Hook the two Revmaster windings in series-aiding
and bring out the center-tap. Connect in full wave
configuration with only TWO junction rectifiers.
Feed this resulting energy off to a filter capacitor
size to be determined.
This will give us a 'supply voltage' of some value
ideally adjust to about 20VDC at cruise RPM and
alternators full load design point.
This voltage is going to be all over the place
depending on load and engine rpm . . . but that's
the nature of the PM alternator.
Now, let's power condition that energy with a constant
current, constant voltage, switch-mode regulator.
NOW we have a BIG difference in performance:
Voltage is adjustable and controlled by active electronics.
Current is adjustable and limited by active electronics.
I suggest this configuration offers
significant improvement in Revmaster's engine
driven power source. Energy being delivered
to the regulator is at significantly higher than
the output set point, CURRENT in from the alternator
will be LOWER than current delivered by the regulator.
Further, each winding works 1/2 of the time so it
follows that heating effects on each winding are much
reduced from the current configuration.
Silicon junctions in the rectifier are significantly
reduced off-setting some new losses introduced by
the electronic CCCV regulator.
It seems that we could craft an engine driven power
system that almost never fails in exchange for one
that fails too many times and for the wrong reasons.
I'm tied up in some house remodeling and we've
added another grandson to the population of Medicine
Lodge Jr High School . . . so refinement of this idea
will be slow. But I'm building an alternator drive stand,
power supply and load bank out in the mess-making shop. B&C has
provided me with both PM and wound-field test articles.
I have a couple of those CCCV regulators that we discussed
on hand right now. They may not be the right size in all
respects but satisfactory for proof-of-concept experiments. I
already have some LiFePO4 and SLVA batteries on hand.
The pieces are coming together. Comments and considered
critical review are most welcome.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Using both windings is a good idea.
What about the phase angle between the two windings? Do we know what it is?
Suppose the two windings are 90 degrees out of phase or some other unknown angle.
How will that affect the proposed circuit? Will the peak AC voltage be higher?
Do capacitors help very much to smooth the DC voltage in a power circuit?
It would help to have a Revmaster alternator to play with.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498085#498085
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Revmaster installation manual? |
Does anyone have a .pdf copy of a Revmaster installation
manual for 2300, 3000 engines . . . or both?
If there's a download link for either . . . that would
be fine too.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
At 10:39 AM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>
>Using both windings is a good idea.
>What about the phase angle between the two windings? Do we know what it is?
No . . .
>Suppose the two windings are 90 degrees out of phase or some other
>unknown angle.
>How will that affect the proposed circuit? Will the peak AC voltage
>be higher?
Good question.
I doubt they are polyphase . . . you gotta go to a
lot of mechanical fuss to achieve it. It's a function
of stator/magnet ring geometry. They might be different
but it's doubtful. Issue 80 of Contact! magazine has
some nice pictures of the stator arrangement:
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf
>Do capacitors help very much to smooth the DC voltage in a power circuit?
They can . . . it's all about current/capacitance ratio
versus frequency. If a capacitor is necessary, it will
be dictated by the CCCV down converter tolerance for
ripple.
>It would help to have a Revmaster alternator to play with.
You got that right!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
Would this scheme work for other PM generators?=C2- I'm using a 32-amp g
enerator from a Harley-Davidson.=C2- The 74518-88 model regulator for the
se seems to be as plentiful as light bulbs, but I can't find any good detai
ls of what the internals look like.=C2- It has two wire input from the st
ator, and one wire out to the battery positive.=C2- The case serves as gr
ound. No means of control or way to indicate failure, prompting me to build
my own.
uckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
I've had a few weeks (and road trips) to apply some
'asphalt engineering' effort to a combination of
threads discussing relative fragility of the
Revmaster 'dual' alternators. The latest thread
explored the notion that changing from SLVA to
LiFePO4 was much more likely to burn an alternator winding.
This is not a new topic here on the List . . . found
a few other postings on the same problem.
Without talking to the=C2- designers, it's
difficult to KNOW the original thinking behind the
design. We also cannot know what efforts the factory
has applied to this issue over the years. But I
think we're on pretty firm ground to assert that
the current design is marginal with respect to
thermal robustness.
Alternator windings should be as reliable as
propeller bolts. You might smoke some regulators,
trash some batteries, find yourself wanting for a
few more amps of output . . . but suffering destruction
of the windings suggests the alternator is a weak
link in the system.
Based on the drawing that Dan supplied a few weeks
ago it seems that the designers intended that only
one of the two windings be used at the same time.
I'm guessing that this is a "normal-and-spare"
design philosophy. Therefore, any time a winding fails due
to exceedance of thermal limits, the other winding
was off line.
We don't know the internal configuration of the
recommended rectifier/regulator but it's almost
certain to included silicon controlled rectifier
and one diode in series on each conduction half-
cycle. That's 3, silicon junctions in series
that carry alternator output current.
My current hypothesis suggests that it would be
much better to use BOTH windings all the time. Reduce
the current in each winding by 50% or more. It seems
better to have one configuration that's bulletproof
than two relatively fragile configurations that 'back
each other up'.
Here's the line of reasoning supporting this design
goal. Recall the bits-and-pieces of design? (1)
properties of materials, (2) management of energy
and (3)refinement of process. In this case, our
weak link seems to center on an energy management
issue. Some copper windings are heating past
practical operating limits. This can be either
an insulation failure, wire failure or both.
Properties of Materials:
We know that copper has a pretty significant positive
resistance coefficient for temperature. We observed
this in the temperature vs. current observations
in battery contactors:
https://tinyurl.com/mpcgp3t
https://tinyurl.com/k6bwdqo
We also considered the physics of why an overloaded
wire tends to burn open at the center of a free-air
span.
As copper heats up, resistance goes up, voltage drop
goes up, dissipated energy goes up, temperature rises
some more . . . and you can see where this is headed.
Take this tid-bit of knowledge about copper
wire and consider how many times you've observed or
heard of the windings or lead wires of any system
failing due to overheat.
I've seen some windings burn up on alternators for
reasons OTHER than poor thermal management. I've never
had a winding burn on my car. I've had one short
and start popping fuses . . . but I doubt that it
was due to burned insulation or melted wires!
The point is, ANY configuration that demonstrates
repeated failure to do open wires or cooked insulation
is MARGINAL at best; hazardous at worst.
Okay, how to reduce the load in Revmaster alternator
wires . . . hopefully without compromising ability
to deliver ENERGY into the system. Here's the energy
management consideration:
We know that PM alternators have a checkered history
of performance . . . but mostly due to stone simple
regulators that DO NOT offer active current limiting.
Furhter, many versions use a full wave bridge consisting
of two pairs of junction diode and silicon controlled
rectifiers. Alternator output current flows through
two of these devices with total drop on the
order of 2 volts. 2 volts out of a 14v system is
a substantial proportion of energy . . . something
on the order of 15 to 25 watts that needs to be
managed in those cute little castings . . . but
that's another story.
Harking back to the earliest days of my studies
in electron herding, ac rectifiers were vacuum
tubes (not junctions) and ac power sources were transformers
plugged into the wall (not spinning magnets).
Except for the systems with very low energy
requirements (table top radios), the rectifiers
were dual diodes driven from either side of a
center tapped transformer secondary. This configuration
had some profound effects in thermal management.
EACH diode carries 1/2 the total current. These
devices have considerable resistance . . . watts
I(squared) x R so if you reduce current by 1/2,
watts goes down to 1/4.=C2- Same thing happens in the
transformer secondary . . . the secondary wire
size can be made smaller in a trade off between
energy lost and transformer size.
Refinement of process:
So take a peek at the simplified proposal diagram.
Hook the two Revmaster windings in series-aiding
and bring out the center-tap. Connect in full wave
configuration with only TWO junction rectifiers.
Feed this resulting energy off to a filter capacitor
size to be determined.
This will give us a 'supply voltage' of some value
ideally adjust to about 20VDC at cruise RPM and
alternators full load design point.
This voltage is going to be all over the place
depending on load and engine rpm . . . but that's
the nature of the PM alternator.
Now, let's power condition that energy with a constant
current, constant voltage, switch-mode regulator.
NOW we have a BIG difference in performance:
Voltage is adjustable and controlled by active electronics.
Current is adjustable and limited by active electronics.
I suggest this configuration offers
significant improvement in Revmaster's engine
driven power source. Energy being delivered
to the regulator is at significantly higher than
the output set point, CURRENT in from the alternator
will be LOWER than current delivered by the regulator.
Further, each winding works 1/2 of the time so it
follows that heating effects on each winding are much
reduced from the current configuration.
Silicon junctions in the rectifier are significantly
reduced off-setting some new losses introduced by
the electronic CCCV regulator.
It seems that we could craft an engine driven power
system that almost never fails in exchange for one
that fails too many times and for the wrong reasons.
I'm tied up in some house remodeling and we've
added another grandson to the population of Medicine
Lodge Jr High School . . . so refinement of this idea
will be slow. But I'm building an alternator drive stand,
power supply and load bank out in the mess-making shop. B&C has
provided me with both PM and wound-field test articles.
I have a couple of those CCCV regulators that we discussed
on hand right now. They may not be the right size in all
respects but satisfactory for proof-of-concept experiments. I
already have some LiFePO4 and SLVA batteries on hand.
The pieces are coming together. Comments and considered
critical review are most welcome.
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster installation manual? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Evidently Revmaster offers a 30 amp alternator on new engines.
http://revmasteraviation.com/?tag=cdi-ignition
-
This is not an installation manual, but is a description of the Revmaster
engine that includes a picture of the alternator coils and a brief
description. From CONTACT Magazine.
http://www.revmasteraviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Revmaster-R-2300.pdf
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498089#498089
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rasmussenRE" <rasmussenre(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Z-11 with 1 slick mag and 1 e-mag |
Hi Bob,
Using Z-11 for my RV8 build. Z-11 depicts two traditional mags, and there
are several different switch configurations in the other Z diagrams that
have one mag and one e-mag. Could you tell me which you recommend? Thanks
for all you do.
Regards,
Robert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Brownout Step Up Converter |
My friend has a Harmon Rocket with a GRT EFIS. During start the voltage
sags just enough to mess up the GRT so that it usually needs a reset after
start. Was there ever consensus on a good ebay dc-dc step up converter? I'm
thinking of ordering this one:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/5A-DC-DC-Boost-Step-up-Volt-Converter-Power-Supply-Module-5V-9V-12V-19V-24V-36V/192243452240
The EFIS needs 1A so this should have no problem keeping up. Any thoughts?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I don't know if there was ever a recommendation as to which DC-DC
converter to buy, but there are some that cost between $5 and $10 that
have a copper coil and look impressive.
Beware of exaggerated ampacity claims.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498092#498092
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
At 03:13 PM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>My friend has a Harmon Rocket with a GRT EFIS.
>During start the voltage sags just enough to
>mess up the GRT so that it usually needs a reset
>after start. Was there ever consensus on a good
>ebay dc-dc step up converter? I'm thinking of ordering this one:
>
>https://www.ebay.ca/itm/5A-DC-DC-
Boost-Step-up-Volt-Converter-Power-Supply-Module-5V-9V-12V-19V-24V-36V/19224
3452240=C2
>=C2
>
>The EFIS needs 1A so this should have no problem keeping up. Any thoughts?
email a shipping address and I'll send
you one to try. I've not had time to characterize
these on the test bench yet. But if we're
picking one based on advertised performance,
this one is as good as any.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-11 with 1 slick mag and 1 e-mag |
At 12:38 PM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>
>Using Z-11 for my RV8 build. Z-11 depicts two traditional mags, and
>there are several different switch configurations in the other Z
>diagrams that have one mag and one e-mag. Could you tell me which
>you recommend? Thanks for all you do.
>
>Regards,
>
>Robert
I've not reviewed the latest recommendations by
Emagair for their products. Are you using
toggle switches? Wire the Mag per Z-11, the
eMag per manufacturer's instructions.
Which model of eMag are you installing?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Harley-Davidson 32A r/r |
At 11:29 AM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>Would this scheme work for other PM generators? I'm using a 32-amp
>generator from a Harley-Davidson. The 74518-88 model regulator for
>these seems to be as plentiful as light bulbs, but I can't find any
>good details of what the internals look like. It has two wire input
>from the stator, and one wire out to the battery positive. The case
>serves as ground. No means of control or way to indicate failure,
>prompting me to build my own.
I've got no reason to believe that the most
ROBUST of PM rectifier/regulators would not
work with the smallest of PM alternators.
You can control ANY rectifier/regulator with
a relay in one of the AC leads out of the
alternator . . . as depicted in many AEC
drawings. LOW Volts warning is your
primary failure warning. 'Real' low volts
warning is built into B&C regulators . . .
most other 'warnings' are driven by less
than elegant sensing systems (including
the venerable VR166).
I would judge your probability of success
to be high.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster installation manual? |
Bob
Included is the section from the Revmaster manual that deals with the
generator and CDI ignition. I'm looking forward to more from you on the
Revmaster problem so I can order a new stator and rewire with confidence
that the second time around will be the final time.
Paul
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 12:03 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have a .pdf copy of a Revmaster installation
> manual for 2300, 3000 engines . . . or both?
>
> If there's a download link for either . . . that would
> be fine too.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster installation manual? |
At 05:38 PM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>Bob
>
>Included is the section from the Revmaster=C2
>manual that deals with the generator and CDI
>ignition. I'm looking forward to more from you
>on the Revmaster problem so I can order a new
>stator and rewire with confidence that the
>second time around will be the final time.
Yeah, I've seen this 'wiring diagram' . . . sad
Everything else I've seen/read about this engine
engenders a lot of confidence. When you pay out
killobux for a modern, strongly promoted engine you
should get something better than this in the way
of installation, performance and system integration.
Can I have your burned stator?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster installation manual? |
The stator is still installed in the engine. I am currently flying on
battery only. When the solution to the Revmaster debacle is clear, I will
get a new stator. Replacement of the stator is not trivial as the engine
must be removed from the airframe. However when it is finally removed I
will send it your way if still interested.
Paul
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:21 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 05:38 PM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>
> Bob
>
> Included is the section from the Revmaster=C3=82 manual that deals with t
he
> generator and CDI ignition. I'm looking forward to more from you on the
> Revmaster problem so I can order a new stator and rewire with confidence
> that the second time around will be the final time.
>
>
> Yeah, I've seen this 'wiring diagram' . . . sad
>
> Everything else I've seen/read about this engine
> engenders a lot of confidence. When you pay out
> killobux for a modern, strongly promoted engine you
> should get something better than this in the way
> of installation, performance and system integration.
>
>
> Can I have your burned stator?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster installation manual? |
At 07:22 PM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>The stator is still installed in the engine.=C2 I
>am currently flying on battery only.=C2 When the
>solution to the Revmaster debacle is clear, I
>will get a new stator.=C2 Replacement of the
>stator is not trivial as the engine must be
>removed from the airframe.=C2 However when it is
>finally removed I will send it your way if still interested.
Sounds like a deal . . .
Do I surmise correctly that you ran one alternator until
it toasted, then ran the second?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | How do you turn 13 D-Sub pins into 5 wires? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group I have 13 pins on a D-Sub connector coming from Avionics that need to
go to single point ground firewall field of tabs. I need to turn into ~ 5 wires
that will go to field of tabs. I think I remember seeing how to do this but
can't find it. Thx. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498100#498100
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 25 amp slow blow fuse |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group I need a 25 amp slow blow fuse for my Rotax generator. Anyone know a source?
I would prefer something robust like a slow blow ANL fuse that can be mounted
on stud. Thx. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498101#498101
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
In case this is interesting.
Analog Devices offers a demo board manufactured by Linear Technology.
Googling "Demo Circuit 1641A" will find an Analog Devices page with much detail
as well as a Mouser page where it sells for $128.
"Demonstration circuit DC1641 is DC/DC boost converter featuring the LTC3786 constant
frequency current mode boost controller. The DC1641A operates over 5V to
24V input and provides over 5A at 6V input voltage and over 9A of output current
at 10V input as shown in figure 3. The 350kHz constant frequency operation
results in small and efficient circuit. The converter provides high output voltage
accuracy (typically 3%) over wide load range with no minimum load requirement.
The demonstration circuit can be easily modified to generate different
output voltages."
Someone on VAF posted about it: https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=1458960&postcount=2
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498102#498102
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you turn 13 D-Sub pins into 5 wires? |
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:58 PM rparigoris wrote:
> rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
>
> Hi Group I have 13 pins on a D-Sub connector coming from Avionics that
> need to go to single point ground firewall field of tabs. I need to turn
> into ~ 5 wires that will go to field of tabs. I think I remember seeing how
> to do this but can't find it. Thx. Ron P.
Hi Ron,
Are you talking about the 'panel ground' Dsub described in Z15L1 in the
book?
I used a slightly different technique. I used a solder style female
connector for the ground buss, and soldered a larger gauge wire bridged
across all the pins, with a larger gauge wire soldered to each end of the
Dsub, and run to the firewall ground. Not '5 wire' redundant, but still
redundant, and all panel ground currents can be safely/adequately carried
by either of the two bigger wires to the firewall.
Regardless of the number of ground wires going back to the firewall, the
drawing shows all tied to a ground 'bus'. That would mean that all the pins
in the Dsub should be common to each other at the Dsub. If you used a
regular crimp style Dsub on the panel, you can get to the same point by
using 'ballast' wires, ~6" long, from each pin. All the wires would be
brought together at their free ends, and the 5 ground wires would attach
there. For something that big, I'd solder/heat shrink. But if you prefer
all-crimps, you can do it in 'stages', but having multiple 'Y's with a
convenient number of wires (3 or 4) in each crimp, and those 'outputs'
gathered into a last crimp to mate with your 5 ground wires to the
firewall. Only downside to this is that the final sum-point to the 5 ground
wires is a single point of failure (if you do a really lousy job in making
up that joint). :-)
Note that if you used subgroups of 3 or 4 pins to each of the 5 grounds
back to the firewall (without tying all the pins together at/near the panel
ground Dsub), and one of the 5 wires breaks, you'd lose ground for all the
devices grounded through that particular wire.
Hope that gives you some ideas on how to proceed,
Charlie
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you turn 13 D-Sub pins into 5 wires? |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Ref "Avionics and Panel Ground System" in chapter 18, page 18-11, of the Aeroelectric
Connection book.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498108#498108
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 25 amp slow blow fuse |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
There are more than 500 Van's RV-12s flying with Rotax 912ULS eninges.
They all use 30 amp ATC or ATO fuses for the alternator output.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498110#498110
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster installation manual? |
I did run one generator at a time. Unfortunately, when it toasted it also
removed the second generator. This also happened to a friend with the same
engine and battery. So much for redundancy.
Paul
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 11:12 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:22 PM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>
> The stator is still installed in the engine.=C3=82 I am currently flying
on
> battery only.=C3=82 When the solution to the Revmaster debacle is clear,
I will
> get a new stator.=C3=82 Replacement of the stator is not trivial as the
engine
> must be removed from the airframe.=C3=82 However when it is finally remo
ved I
> will send it your way if still interested.
>
>
> Sounds like a deal . . .
>
> Do I surmise correctly that you ran one alternator until
> it toasted, then ran the second?
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 25 amp slow blow fuse |
At 10:58 AM 9/1/2020, you wrote:
>
>There are more than 500 Van's RV-12s flying with Rotax 912ULS eninges.
>They all use 30 amp ATC or ATO fuses for the alternator output.
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
My recommendation as well. If you want to
install something a bit more robust, you
could step up to the MAXI line of plastic
fuses. The HHX fuseholder has a mounting
hole for mechanically secure installation.
This one comes with 30A fuse already
installed.
https://tinyurl.com/y2htcz4u
. . . but the ATO/ATC fuses have amassed
a good track record in this application
as well.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster installation manual? |
At 11:06 AM 9/1/2020, you wrote:
>I did run one generator at a
>time.=C2 Unfortunately, when it toasted it also
>removed the second generator.=C2 This also
>happened to a friend=C2 with the same engine and
>battery.=C2 So much for redundancy.
>
>Paul
Oh . . . the windings share a set of pole
pieces . . . yeah . . . so much for
FMEA as well!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
At 10:59 PM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>In case this is interesting.
>
>Analog Devices offers a demo board manufactured by Linear Technology.
>
>Googling "Demo Circuit 1641A" will find an Analog Devices page with
>much detail as well as a Mouser page where it sells for $128.
This is one of a large family of such devices.
Some are quite sophisticated. There's always
a push to achieve the greatest possible
efficiency.
For our purposes, we need a relatively 'tiny'
boost lasting a second or so at relatively
low power . . . perhaps 50 watts
in a worst case (lot's of vulnerable accessories
on the brownout bus).
If your battery is in good shape, the brownout
event is over before the engine starts. See
https://tinyurl.com/y294j7zl
The starter characteristic that precipitates
the brown out is INRUSH current. This can be
5 to 10 times greater than cranking current.
However, as you can see in the plot above,
it lasts but a handful of milliseconds. Once
the starter motor spins up, about 100 mS,
the battery rises back above 9V.
The performance questions for commercial off-the-
shelf supplies is not so much about carrying a
load but how fast the device comes on line and
how fast it responds to the dynamics of it's
bus supply voltage.
From the time the starter button is pressed
until the starter inrush event begins is on
the order of 5-10 milliseconds depending on
contactor designs.
So, from the time the starter push button is
pressed, we want the boost supply to be
on the job . . . further, it needs to respond
to the sudden dip in supply voltage during
inrush time. But the time that the booster needs
to grunt a load is very short.
This is why some of the early, super-capacitor
based brown-out mitigation schemes were successful.
But the demands on brown-out bus performance
outgrew those ideas.
The exemplar boost supplies I have need
to be peeked at on the bench. I'll be out
of town tomorrow but I think I can get
some 'scope pictures of their performance
before I mail one out.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OBAM and PM Alternators |
Thanks Bob and the others that gave their definition of OBAM.
I like it.
I have a Jabiru engine that HAD a PM Alternator. I started messing with it to get
more voltage at a lower RPM.
Long story short ( pun intended ) I managed to get a wire just close enough to
the magnets that it shorted the coils that I had wired in series. I sent the fried
coils to Bob a couple of years ago. Bought a 40 amp alternator with adapter
and belt drive and have had no more problems.
I have learned a lot from this list
Bobby
BTW this list comes through every day on G-Mail but seldom on Comcast.
When it does come in on Comcast it and others are labeled as Spam
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z13-8 main alternator troubleshooting |
| From: | "rvtach" <rvtach(at)msn.com> |
So this test confirmed that the old regulator was not functioning. I installed
the trial Ford regulator permanently. So nice to know with some confidence that
my alternator is working normally.
Thank you for this tip and for everything I have learned lurking here over the
years!
-Jim
--------
Jim McChesney
Tucson, AZ
RV-7A Finishing Kit
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498127#498127
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com> |
Now that the AV 30 has STC approval for certificated airplanes I have some questions
on the wiring differences.
The experimental say power is to be from the battery or essential bus only, the
"approved" manual says power is from the avionics bus or main master relay.
Can the experimental version also be powered from the avionics bus?
The certified calls for a 3/16" braided ground strap from the of the d-sub back
shell, maximum of 8". What would be a similar sized stranded wire, and would
the also be a good idea for the experimental version?
On the wiring diagrams some of the shielded wire symbols have an X in them. Does
this indicate twisted pair?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498136#498136
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/av30_experimental_107.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/av30_cert_636.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Lycoming EIS wirig recommendation |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Got today SI 1569A which is talking about the new Lycoming EIS which are
power dependent.
Interesting their wiring recommendation, looks so familiar:
Cheers Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
>>Without talking to the designers, it's
>>difficult to KNOW the original thinking behind the
>>design.
I've spoken to Joe Horvoth a couple of times, before and just after purchasing
my engine. I spoke to him at least once regarding the alternator and ignition
system. Joe is not a particularly "chatty" fella but I think he is rightly proud
of his design. His innovation in the design and improvements of the VW are
truly impressive. Joe is clearly gifted when it comes to mechanical design and
engine building. Unfortunately, I think the electrical systems were done by
a hired gun and not by Joe directly (an unconfirmed rumor I am starting).
As noted in the earlier posts and comments, Joe has strongly recommended not to
run both alternator sides at the same time and has also strongly discouraged
the use of anything but traditional lead acid (wet) batteries. I've never heard
him go into any detail on the reasons behind these recommendations. I should
have asked when I visited him a few years back.
>>So take a peek at the simplified proposal diagram.
>>Hook the two Revmaster windings in series-aiding
>>and bring out the center-tap. Connect in full wave
>>configuration with only TWO junction rectifiers.
I like the approach and two questions come to mind:
How well the current will be equally divided by the two windings?
This is half wave rectification, right?
I have not spun my engine yet but from examination of the windings I expect to
see the two PMAs "IN PHASE" and as noted, single phase, not polyphase. Does this
configuration change the expectation of roughly evenly divided current? If
the two PMAs were out of phase by 180 degrees (which is possible if my talents
with the "right hand rule" are off abit) I assume the center tap would not
operate the same, if at all.
I have to pull my engine once more before I start it (hopefully, yet this fall)
and will examine the windings on the PMAs closely to convince myself of the phase
relationship between the two halves.
One final note. I've thought about this a little (clearly not as much as Bob).
I plan on installing thermo-couples as close to the center of each stator base
as I can. My thought is to run the engine as deigned, with OEM regulators and
running one halve at a time. I am planning on a Odyssey battery (PC680) with
added (2) shunt resistors in the charge circuit to increase the load seen by
the PMAs. I plan on trying to identify what the conditions are that lead to
the high temperature in the PMAs. I hope to be able to install the TCs close
enough to the windings to obtain a warning before they overheat. I think the
expected meltdown of the "enamel" insulation is a bit over 200C. Can anyone
confirm?
In the long term, I'd like to install something like the CCCV regulator mentioned.
Is there actually such a regulator designed and available for a PMA on an
OBAM aircraft?
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498148#498148
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Actually it is desired that the two windings be 180 degrees out of phase.
That way, only one winding will conduct at a time and the output will be pulsing
DC. If the two windings are in phase, no problem, just reverse the leads on
one of the windings. Then the windings will be 180 degrees out of phase.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498149#498149
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
> >>So take a peek at the simplified proposal diagram.
> >>Hook the two Revmaster windings in series-aiding
> >>and bring out the center-tap. Connect in full wave
> >>configuration with only TWO junction rectifiers.
>
>I like the approach and two questions come to mind:
> How well the current will be equally divided by the two windings?
> This is half wave rectification, right?
No, full wave . . . the current doesn't
NEED to be exactly shared . . . each winding
conduct on 1/2 cycle of the time independently
of each other. Unlike the legacy, single winding
PMA and bridge rectifier approach, this
configuration splits the two halves onto
separate windings . . . but it's still
full wave rectification.
>I have not spun my engine yet but from examination of the windings I
>expect to see the two PMAs "IN PHASE" and as noted, single phase,
>not polyphase. Does this configuration change the expectation of
>roughly evenly divided current? If the two PMAs were out of phase
>by 180 degrees (which is possible if my talents with the "right hand
>rule" are off abit) I assume the center tap would not operate the
>same, if at all.
From what I understand, the Revmaster
PMA is wound BI-FILAR meaning two strands
of wire side-by-by side. This produces
two, identical windings that COULD and
perhaps SHOULD be wired in parallel. This
would cut the current in each winding to
1/2 of the total.
>I have to pull my engine once more before I start it (hopefully, yet
>this fall) and will examine the windings on the PMAs closely to
>convince myself of the phase relationship between the two halves.
The result is predictable. You have two, identical
windings sharing the same physical space
on the stator. Voltages induced by the
mechanics and magnetics are identical.
Given that the burning the 'active' winding
also burns the 'standby' winding, you do
not have redundant systems. You might as
well run the two windings in parallel
which would greatly reduce the stress on
the wires and may well drive the 'lithium'
failure rate to zero.
>One final note. I've thought about this a little (clearly not as
>much as Bob). I plan on installing thermo-couples as close to the
>center of each stator base as I can. My thought is to run the
>engine as deigned, with OEM regulators and running one halve at a
>time. I am planning on a Odyssey battery (PC680) with added (2)
>shunt resistors in the charge circuit to increase the load seen by
>the PMAs. I plan on trying to identify what the conditions are that
>lead to the high temperature in the PMAs. I hope to be able to
>install the TCs close enough to the windings to obtain a warning
>before they overheat. I think the expected meltdown of the "enamel"
>insulation is a bit over 200C. Can anyone confirm?
I don't know of any manufacturer of aviation
hardware that doesn't call out Class H insulation
for their magnet wire
https://tinyurl.com/y3a7o26s
Without going to some exotic wire coated
with un-obtainium, Class H is the best
you can buy off the shelf. So yeah, 200C
max operating for the copper . . .
Thermocoupling the windings is not a bad idea.
Are those stator windings varnished? Getting
a 'real' copper temperature number on a running
machine is not easy. The closest I ever
got to 'real' measurements was by bringing
leads for winding-under-observation outside
so that it could be quickly switched from
'service' to 'measure' mode by exciting the
winding with a calibrated current and then
measuring the voltage drop. Copper temperature
can be calculated by knowing the temperature coefficient
of resistance for copper. This had to be done
quickly (under 100 mS) 'cause the copper cools
very rapidly when the loads are removed and the
heat soaks out.
Generally speaking, with your 200C rated wire,
getting thermocouple readings over 170-180C
would be cause for concern.
We KNOW this design is thermally deficient . . .
too many of them have burned up in service.
Too many band-aids have been suggested
and attempted with little if any relief.
>In the long term, I'd like to install something like the CCCV
>regulator mentioned. Is there actually such a regulator designed
>and available for a PMA on an OBAM aircraft?
Sure, they're commercial off the shelf items.
I've got a couple on the bench now that I'm
going to use in a proof-of-concept study. But
after reading about the bi-filar windings
design, I'm not sure there's much value to
be secured by 'upgrading' the rectifier/regulator
design for this engine.
As currently configured, there is NO REDUNDANCY
of engine driven power sources. I'm beginning
to think one would be well advised to
simply parallel the two windings and treat
them as one. This alone would produce a profound
drop in wire temperatures for any given load.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
[quote]
Actually it is desired that the two windings be 180 degrees out of phase.
That way, only one winding will conduct at a time and the output will be pulsing
DC. If the two windings are in phase, no problem, just reverse the leads on
one of the windings. Then the windings will be 180 degrees out of phase.
[/quote]
Ah, yes. that makes perfect sense. The end result is a full wave rectified waveform
output.
Thanks for the clarification Joe.
Dan Theis.[/quote]
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498151#498151
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming EIS wirig recommendation |
| From: | "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com> |
Thanks for the link.
Is the Lycoming EIS an off-the-shelf or a clean sheet system and who makes it?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498152#498152
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming EIS wirig recommendation |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
It looks Lycoming branded but identical to the Surefly, for certified it
has fixed timing :)
Cheers Werner
On 05.09.2020 15:18, eschlanser wrote:
>
> Thanks for the link.
> Is the Lycoming EIS an off-the-shelf or a clean sheet system and who makes it?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498152#498152
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
I asked about an easy package for creating schematics. Last night I chased down a license for Visio Pro 2019. It has a generous set of symbols and has a lot of useful output formats (see the screen shots below). It plays well with my Office 365 set up. At $4 for the license (see https://www.ebay.com/itm/133504007620), it seems worth a try.
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498153#498153
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/visio_outputs_116.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/visio1_135.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Dynon Skyview will operate down to 6V for ten seconds with no backup battery. I
wonder how it is done and if we can learn something there.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498155#498155
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
Bob, for some reason your post made it to me on the digest but does not show up
on the forum (as far as I can find). You posted it just before Joe on Friday
morning (I think). It begins as follows:
>> >>So take a peek at the simplified proposal diagram.
>> >>Hook the two Revmaster windings in series-aiding
>> >>and bring out the center-tap. Connect in full wave
>> >>configuration with only TWO junction rectifiers.
>
>>I like the approach and two questions come to mind:
>> How well the current will be equally divided by the two windings?
>> This is half wave rectification, right?
> No, full wave . . . the current doesn't
> NEED to be exactly shared . . . each winding
> conduct on 1/2 cycle of the time independently
> of each other. Unlike the legacy, single winding
> PMA and bridge rectifier approach, this
> configuration splits the two halves onto
> separate windings . . . but it's still
> full wave rectification
OK, I've convinced myself that the OEM design made use of 1/2 wave rectification.
Unless I'm wrong on this, running both sides with the OEM rectifiers (which
is discouraged) would have the same current (total) heat generation as this
very elegant center tap as you've shown.
The other issue is heat from the engine. I have to wonder if the real culprit
is not the windings at all but the proximity of the PMAs to the crankcase heat.
If we consider the report on the Onex where both sides failed (burned) when only
one was operating, perhaps it is the engine heat and inability to reject that,
along with the PMAs internal heating that conspire against us.
Not to throw another apple into the barrel but can we effectively add a blast tube
to the environment around the PMAs?
As far as I can see, there is one tiny little inlet hole for ventilation from above
the engine into the PMA area. This hole is mostly covered by the flywheel.
Not much of any opportunity to reject heat other than conduction through the
surface of the casting at the back of the engine.
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498156#498156
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Dear Bob,
is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it to
my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).
Thanks a lot for your help, BTW will the next edition of your book
include these new diagrams? Would love to update my edition 10 (which
was still paper ;) to a new edition with all your updates.
Cheers Werner (Glastar Z11 and now RV-10 with Z101)
On 26.05.2020 02:57, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> I've combed Z101 several times and I think
> the major 'nits' have been eliminated. I removed
> 'preliminary' status and published as Rev -A-
> at:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yavoutjh
>
> Doesn't mean it's 'carved in stone' . . . just
> ready for some serious builder consideration.
> Error call outs and suggestions always welcome.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Mikus <timmikus(at)icloud.com> |
I have tried a couple of times under two different email addresses to register,
both times I received a message that said the administrator would need to approve
my request (second try was yesterday). How can I get signed up? Thank you.
Sent from my iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Registration |
What were the requested usernames?
Matt
At 9/6/2020 12:40 PM Sunday, you wrote:
>
>I have tried a couple of times under two different email addresses
>to register, both times I received a message that said the
>administrator would need to approve my request (second try was
>yesterday). How can I get signed up? Thank you.
>
>Sent from my iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
I used the IPS from TCW Tech. It worked fine.
But then I pullen it and installed a backup battery for the HXr. This allows me
to power up the EFIS well before turning on the master or starting the engine
in addition to providing brownout prevention. It also provides an additional
power source for the EFIS should things go really sideways in the electrical
system.
GRT also sells a backup battery (12v only).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498166#498166
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A |
At 07:34 AM 9/6/2020, you wrote:
>
>Dear Bob,
>
>is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it
>to my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).
Yes, both files of RevB are posted.
The next upgrade to the Z-Figures will probably
'retire' most if not all of the legacy figures
applicable to aircraft engines (lyc, cont). Z101
iterations cover all previous variations on the
theme.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
| Subject: | Alternator/Strobe whine |
I could use a little help debugging this problem. A few months ago I
complete a major panel overhaul on my GlaStar basically using Z-12. The
plane came with a B&C L40 alternator with an LR-3 voltage regulator.
There's always been strobe noise in the headset. A couple years ago I
replaced the "old" Whelen strobes with AeroFlash LED strobes and all new
shielded wiring. I still had noise but it wasn't bad.
As part of this overhaul, I added a B&C BC-410H accessory pad alternator
and SB1B-14 standby regulator. Since either alternator can handle the
worst-case load, there's no essential bus. For space reasons I ended up
relocating and almost entirely rewiring the LR-3. I also totally
replaced all the avionics including audio panel, intercom, headset jacks
and all associated wiring.
The problem--the strobe noise is worse. But it's only present when the
primary alternator is on. On just battery or just standby alternator the
system is silent. Any thoughts on how to silence this little demon?
Thanks
--Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Thanks Bob,
I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created with an
unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.
Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version
Z14P from 2013 still works up to Z34 ( 11/2014) from Z11P (2016 upwards
it fails)
Thanks Werner
On 07.09.2020 15:54, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 07:34 AM 9/6/2020, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Bob,
>>
>> is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it to
>> my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).
>
> Yes, both files of RevB are posted.
>
> The next upgrade to the Z-Figures will probably
> 'retire' most if not all of the legacy figures
> applicable to aircraft engines (lyc, cont). Z101
> iterations cover all previous variations on the
> theme.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 1:58 PM Rick Beebe wrote:
> I could use a little help debugging this problem. A few months ago I
> complete a major panel overhaul on my GlaStar basically using Z-12. The
> plane came with a B&C L40 alternator with an LR-3 voltage regulator.
> There's always been strobe noise in the headset. A couple years ago I
> replaced the "old" Whelen strobes with AeroFlash LED strobes and all new
> shielded wiring. I still had noise but it wasn't bad.
>
> As part of this overhaul, I added a B&C BC-410H accessory pad alternator
> and SB1B-14 standby regulator. Since either alternator can handle the
> worst-case load, there's no essential bus. For space reasons I ended up
> relocating and almost entirely rewiring the LR-3. I also totally replaced
> all the avionics including audio panel, intercom, headset jacks and all
> associated wiring.
>
> The problem--the strobe noise is worse. But it's only present when the
> primary alternator is on. On just battery or just standby alternator the
> system is silent. Any thoughts on how to silence this little demon?
>
> Thanks
>
> --Rick
>
Hi Rick,
Where are the strobe wire shield grounds? Did you keep the strobe ground
isolated from the local (at the strobe) airframe ground? Are your
headphone & mic jacks isolated from the airframe, and grounded only at the
intercom? I've had moderate luck using the old (new?) single point ground
technique shown in 'the book'. Since this is an ongoing issue with two
different kinds of strobes, if it were me, I'd look at running an isolated
strobe ground back to battery negative, or as close as is practical. What
you *don't* want is the strobe and your low level audio stuff sharing the
same ground path back to the battery negative. If that happens, the audio
equipment's power supply (and likely the audio signal itself) sees the
'ripple' of noise from the strobes.
It's conceivable that the old strobes were radiating into the radio's RF
input, but I wouldn't have thought that the LED version would be as bad.
Last (probably should have been first), you say 'strobe noise', but say it
stops when the alternator is off. That doesn't sound like strobe noise; it
sounds like alternator noise. Is the sound there when the alternator is on,
but the strobes are off? Is (was) it the 'woop, woop' sound as the strobe
fires, or continuous whine, or static, or ??? Does it vary in pitch or
volume with engine rpm?
If it's actually alternator noise, you probably still need to look at
grounds. Make sure the alternator has a 'zero resistance' (clean)
connection to the engine, and that the engine has a perfect, low impedance
ground back to the battery negative (can be through a firewall ground stud,
but that should go directly to the battery). If you're using the steel cage
in the Glastar for ground, make sure that *all* ground terminations to the
cage Battery location could be a factor; is it at the firewall or behind
the luggage compartment?
If all the grounds truly are good (only way to know for sure, without
specialized test gear, is to unbolt and examine the mating surfaces), and
it really is alternator noise instead of strobe noise, you might have a bad
diode or two in the alternator itself.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A |
At 04:11 PM 9/7/2020, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob,
>
>I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created with an
>unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.
>
>Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version
try this one
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/Z101B(R14).dwg
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A |
Werner, Try the free trial version of Draftsjght. It works all rhe way
back to Acad 13.
Rick
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut
m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.
www.avg.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut
m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:21 PM Werner Schneider wrote:
t
> >
>
> Thanks Bob,
>
> I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created with an
> unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.
>
> Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version
>
> Z14P from 2013 still works up to Z34 ( 11/2014) from Z11P (2016 upwards
> it fails)
>
> Thanks Werner
>
> On 07.09.2020 15:54, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > At 07:34 AM 9/6/2020, you wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Bob,
> >>
> >> is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it to
> >> my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).
> >
> > Yes, both files of RevB are posted.
> >
> > The next upgrade to the Z-Figures will probably
> > 'retire' most if not all of the legacy figures
> > applicable to aircraft engines (lyc, cont). Z101
> > iterations cover all previous variations on the
> > theme.
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
Thanks for the help. The strobe noise is the 'woop woop' sound. It was
much woopier with the Whelen strobes but it's clearly happening when the
strobes flash. And it does stop when the strobes are off.
There are sort-of two ground points now. There's a terminal strip in the
forward cockpit that all the non-avionics stuff such as lights are
grounded to. The ground wire from the battery runs to a large stud at
one end of that terminal strip. There's another large stud on the other
end with a large wire going to the engine. When I built the new panel I
incorporated a DB-25 central ground connector on the panel with
redundant connections to that terminal strip.
The strobes are not grounded at the wingtip. I ran the wire back to the
grounding terminal strip. I guess it's safe to say the strobe ground
does share the audio ground back to the battery.
That said, I suppose it could be alternator noise. The strobes do cause
a fairly significant current spike when they flash. Maybe I'm really
hearing the alternator working harder during those moments.
--Rick
On 9/7/2020 5:41 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> Where are the strobe wire shieldgrounds? Did you keep the strobe
> ground isolated from the local (at the strobe) airframe ground? Are
> your headphone& mic jacks isolated from the airframe, and grounded
> only at the intercom? I've had moderate luck using the old (new?)
> single point ground technique shown in 'the book'. Since this is an
> ongoing issue with two different kinds of strobes, if it were me, I'd
> look at running an isolated strobe ground back to battery negative, or
> as close as is practical. What you *don't* want is the strobe and your
> low level audio stuff sharing the same ground path back to the battery
> negative. If that happens, the audio equipment'spower supply (and
> likely the audio signal itself) sees the 'ripple' of noise from the
> strobes.
>
> It's conceivable that the old strobes were radiating into the radio's
> RF input, but I wouldn't have thought that the LED version would be as
> bad.
>
> Last (probably should have been first), you say 'strobe noise', but
> say it stops when the alternator is off. That doesn't sound like
> strobe noise; it sounds like alternator noise. Is the sound there when
> the alternator is on, but the strobes are off? Is (was) it the 'woop,
> woop' sound as the strobe fires, or continuous whine, or static, or
> ??? Does it vary in pitch or volume with engine rpm?
>
> If it's actually alternator noise, you probably still need to look at
> grounds. Make sure the alternator has a 'zero resistance' (clean)
> connection to the engine, and that the engine has a perfect, low
> impedance ground back to the battery negative (can be through a
> firewall ground stud, but that should go directly to the battery). If
> you're using the steel cage in the Glastar for ground, make sure that
> *all* ground terminations to the cage Battery location could be a
> factor; is it at the firewall or behind the luggage compartment?
>
> If all the grounds truly are good (only way to know for sure, without
> specialized test gear, is to unbolt and examine the mating surfaces),
> and it really is alternator noise instead of strobe noise, you might
> have a bad diode or two in the alternator itself.
>
> Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Test, please ignore...
--------
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498200#498200
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Woked perfectly, many thanks!!
Cheers Werner
On 08.09.2020 00:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 04:11 PM 9/7/2020, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks Bob,
>>
>> I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created with an
>> unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.
>>
>> Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version
>
>
> try this one
>
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/Z101B(R14).dwg
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Thanks Richard, might give it a try, it's just after 17 years and fluent
working with Intellicad ;)
Cheers Werner
On 08.09.2020 01:58, Richard Girard wrote:
> Werner, Try the free trial versionof Draftsjght. It works all rheway
> back to Acad 13.
>
> Rick
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:21 PM Werner Schneider > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Thanks Bob,
>
> I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created
> with an
> unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.
>
> Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version
>
> Z14P from 2013 still works up to Z34 ( 11/2014) from Z11P (2016
> upwards
> it fails)
>
> Thanks Werner
>
> On 07.09.2020 15:54, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > At 07:34 AM 9/6/2020, you wrote:
> >> >
> >>
> >> Dear Bob,
> >>
> >> is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can
> taylor it to
> >> my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).
> >
> > Yes, both files of RevB are posted.
> >
> > The next upgrade to the Z-Figures will probably
> > 'retire' most if not all of the legacy figures
> > applicable to aircraft engines (lyc, cont). Z101
> > iterations cover all previous variations on the
> > theme.
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
>
>
> Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho
> Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Email Security Gateway" <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | User Quarantine Account Information |
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bGluazogIGh0dHBzOi8vOTYuNjguMTcxLjIxIAoKICAK
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: User Quarantine Account Information |
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
/Le 08/09/2020 12:00, Email Security Gateway a crit:
/
> /Welcome to the Email Security Gateway . This message contains the
> information you will need to access your Spam Quarantine and Preferences.
> / /
> Your account has been set to the following username and password:
> Username: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Password: ******
> / /
> To login to your Spam Quarantine use the following link:
> https://96.68.171.21/
Hi all, anyone received the above message ?
Is it safe ?
Thanks
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: User Quarantine Account Information |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Hi Gilles,
the IP belongs to Matt, so it should be safe, however I see no reason to
check for SPAM/Quarantine messages on his server :)
I guess Matt will enlight us soon if that one escaped by accident or it
is something we should use.
I guess he is installing new modules and that message escaped to the
list instead of him.
Cheers Werner
On 08.09.2020 12:26, GTH wrote:
> /Le 08/09/2020 12:00, Email Security Gateway a crit:
> /
>> /Welcome to the Email Security Gateway . This message contains the
>> information you will need to access your Spam Quarantine and Preferences.
>> / /
>> Your account has been set to the following username and password:
>> Username: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Password: ******
>> / /
>> To login to your Spam Quarantine use the following link:
>> https://96.68.171.21/
>
>
> Hi all, anyone received the above message ?
>
> Is it safe ?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
> http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Try running power and ground to the strobes using a twisted pair of wires.
Increasing the main alternator "B" terminal wire size might help.
Make sure the main alternator terminals are clean and tight.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498258#498258
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Cigarette lighter socket to power a Garmin Aera 660 |
| From: | "Argonaut36" <fmlibrino(at)msn.com> |
I have recently purchased a Garmin AERA 660 portable GPS navigator. The unit holder
to be used in the airplane is equipped with a cigarette lighter connector
plug (outfitted with a 3A fast fuse).
Could somebody recommend a good quality cigarette lighter connector socket that
I can connect to the electrical system of my airplane? I would like to buy a
socket that can be installed using an Adel clamp.
Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498259#498259
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Cigarette lighter socket to power a Garmin Aera |
660
Cut off the plug and connect to your electrical system
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 8 Sep 2020, at 3:37 pm, Argonaut36 wrote:
>
>
> I have recently purchased a Garmin AERA 660 portable GPS navigator. The unit
holder to be used in the airplane is equipped with a cigarette lighter connector
plug (outfitted with a 3A fast fuse).
>
> Could somebody recommend a good quality cigarette lighter connector socket that
I can connect to the electrical system of my airplane? I would like to buy
a socket that can be installed using an Adel clamp.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498259#498259
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
I think that there might be a misunderstanding of the Revmaster
architecture in that I don't believe that the windings for the two
generators are in tandem but are a series of 5 coils each for two
generators. I have enclosed a picture of the stator from my friend's
engine. He was running one generator at the time and you can see how
severely it was destroyed. The Phenolic base was also destroyed. The
second generator coils don't look bad but they are also ruined. To me one
of the interesting things is that the ignition coils are still functional.
My primary purpose in starting this thread was to hopefully end up with a
definite fix for the problem. Trying this or that is not practicable due
to the destructive nature of the overheating. The stator is over $500 to
replace and requires pulling the engine to do so. I'll only really know
that the problem is fixed when the smoke stays in the coils.
It seems to me that the most important change will be to use the B&C AVC1
volltage regulator since it is designed for firewall forward and can be
adjusted down to 13.7 v which is the minimum voltage that will fully
charge the EarthX battery. With the voltage reduction should come current
reduction. What I don't know (and hopefully the educated on the list can
explain) is whether restricting the voltage will also restrict the
current. Can the generator still create abnormal current and therefore
heat. I will try and incorporate thermocouples in with the coils but I'm
not sure how much advance warning they can give.
So, with the new voltage regulator set at 13.7 can the generator still pump
out current based on engine speed and battery resistance or is the current
capped since the voltage is restricted. I'm trying to determine if I have a
good chance of success here.
Does anybody want to redesign the generator to make it more robust.
Paul
[image: IMG-2451.jpeg]
On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:36 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> >>So take a peek at the simplified proposal diagram.
> >>Hook the two Revmaster windings in series-aiding
> >>and bring out the center-tap. Connect in full wave
> >>configuration with only TWO junction rectifiers.
>
> I like the approach and two questions come to mind:
> How well the current will be equally divided by the two windings?
> This is half wave rectification, right?
>
>
> No, full wave . . . the current doesn't
> NEED to be exactly shared . . . each winding
> conduct on 1/2 cycle of the time independently
> of each other. Unlike the legacy, single winding
> PMA and bridge rectifier approach, this
> configuration splits the two halves onto
> separate windings . . . but it's still
> full wave rectification.
>
> I have not spun my engine yet but from examination of the windings I
> expect to see the two PMAs "IN PHASE" and as noted, single phase, not
> polyphase. Does this configuration change the expectation of roughly
> evenly divided current? If the two PMAs were out of phase by 180 degrees
> (which is possible if my talents with the "right hand rule" are off abit) I
> assume the center tap would not operate the same, if at all.
>
>
> From what I understand, the Revmaster
> PMA is wound BI-FILAR meaning two strands
> of wire side-by-by side. This produces
> two, identical windings that COULD and
> perhaps SHOULD be wired in parallel. This
> would cut the current in each winding to
> 1/2 of the total.
>
> I have to pull my engine once more before I start it (hopefully, yet this
> fall) and will examine the windings on the PMAs closely to convince myself
> of the phase relationship between the two halves.
>
>
> The result is predictable. You have two, identical
> windings sharing the same physical space
> on the stator. Voltages induced by the
> mechanics and magnetics are identical.
> Given that the burning the 'active' winding
> also burns the 'standby' winding, you do
> not have redundant systems. You might as
> well run the two windings in parallel
> which would greatly reduce the stress on
> the wires and may well drive the 'lithium'
> failure rate to zero.
>
> One final note. I've thought about this a little (clearly not as much as
> Bob). I plan on installing thermo-couples as close to the center of each
> stator base as I can. My thought is to run the engine as deigned, with OEM
> regulators and running one halve at a time. I am planning on a Odyssey
> battery (PC680) with added (2) shunt resistors in the charge circuit to
> increase the load seen by the PMAs. I plan on trying to identify what the
> conditions are that lead to the high temperature in the PMAs. I hope to be
> able to install the TCs close enough to the windings to obtain a warning
> before they overheat. I think the expected meltdown of the "enamel"
> insulation is a bit over 200C. Can anyone confirm?
>
>
> I don't know of any manufacturer of aviation
> hardware that doesn't call out Class H insulation
> for their magnet wire
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y3a7o26s
>
> Without going to some exotic wire coated
> with un-obtainium, Class H is the best
> you can buy off the shelf. So yeah, 200C
> max operating for the copper . . .
>
> Thermocoupling the windings is not a bad idea.
> Are those stator windings varnished? Getting
> a 'real' copper temperature number on a running
> machine is not easy. The closest I ever
> got to 'real' measurements was by bringing
> leads for winding-under-observation outside
> so that it could be quickly switched from
> 'service' to 'measure' mode by exciting the
> winding with a calibrated current and then
> measuring the voltage drop. Copper temperature
> can be calculated by knowing the temperature coefficient
> of resistance for copper. This had to be done
> quickly (under 100 mS) 'cause the copper cools
> very rapidly when the loads are removed and the
> heat soaks out.
>
> Generally speaking, with your 200C rated wire,
> getting thermocouple readings over 170-180C
> would be cause for concern.
>
> We KNOW this design is thermally deficient . . .
> too many of them have burned up in service.
> Too many band-aids have been suggested
> and attempted with little if any relief.
>
>
> In the long term, I'd like to install something like the CCCV regulator
> mentioned. Is there actually such a regulator designed and available for a
> PMA on an OBAM aircraft?
>
>
> Sure, they're commercial off the shelf items.
> I've got a couple on the bench now that I'm
> going to use in a proof-of-concept study. But
> after reading about the bi-filar windings
> design, I'm not sure there's much value to
> be secured by 'upgrading' the rectifier/regulator
> design for this engine.
>
> As currently configured, there is NO REDUNDANCY
> of engine driven power sources. I'm beginning
> to think one would be well advised to
> simply parallel the two windings and treat
> them as one. This alone would produce a profound
> drop in wire temperatures for any given load.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
Alternator, strobe or both?
Alternator whine is almost always a ground loop issue.
Pitch of whine will go up and down with engine rpm.
It often gets louder when alternator loads are highest
like right after starting engine (recharging battery)
and all loads turned on.
Strobe whine pitches up and down in synchronization
with flashes from the strobes and is generally of
constant volume.
Which one(s) disappear when appliance is OFF.
Alternator, strobe or both?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/8/2020 3:41 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Alternator, strobe or both?
>
> Alternator whine is almost always a ground loop issue.
> Pitch of whine will go up and down with engine rpm.
> It often gets louder when alternator loads are highest
> like right after starting engine (recharging battery)
> and all loads turned on.
>
> Strobe whine pitches up and down in synchronization
> with flashes from the strobes and is generally of
> constant volume.
>
> Which one(s) disappear when appliance is OFF.
> Alternator, strobe or both?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
I think he mentioned in his reply to me that it was the 'woop woop'
indicating it is a strobe sound, but he also said that it stops when the
main alternator is turned off. (?)
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: User Quarantine Account Information |
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
Le 08/09/2020 13:41, Werner Schneider a crit:
> /
> / /
> I guess Matt will enlight us soon if that one escaped by accident or it
> is something we should use.
> / /
> I guess he is installing new modules and that message escaped to the
> list instead of him.
> /
Thank you Werner !
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Email Security Gateway" <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Spam Quarantine Summary - (1) |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AV 30 Wiring |
| From: | "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com> |
Bump, primarily to re-ask the question about the diagram for the certified version
with the "X" in the shield symbol. Thanks, John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498276#498276
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
I'll be back at the plane on Saturday and I will do some controlled
tests. The noise pitch is definitely in sync with the strobes. When I
turn the main alternator off the noise goes away completely. My memory
is that it also goes away when I turn the strobes off (main alternator
on), but I'm not sure if there's a residual whine.
--Rick
On 9/8/2020 4:41 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Alternator, strobe or both?
>
> Alternator whine is almost always a ground loop issue.
> Pitch of whine will go up and down with engine rpm.
> It often gets louder when alternator loads are highest
> like right after starting engine (recharging battery)
> and all loads turned on.
>
> Strobe whine pitches up and down in synchronization
> with flashes from the strobes and is generally of
> constant volume.
>
> Which one(s) disappear when appliance is OFF.
> Alternator, strobe or both?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AV 30 Wiring |
At 06:21 PM 9/8/2020, you wrote:
>
>Bump, primarily to re-ask the question about the diagram for the
>certified version with the "X" in the shield symbol. Thanks, John
I would infer that to indicate twisted conductors . . .
but then I think one would be hard pressed to find
a shielded pair that was not twisted.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
I think that there might be a misunderstanding of the Revmaster
architecture in that I don't believe that the windings for the two
generators are in tandem but are a series of 5 coils each for two
generators. I have enclosed a picture of the stator from my friend's
engine. He was running one generator at the time and you can see how
severely it was destroyed. The Phenolic base was also destroyed. The
second generator coils don't look bad but they are also ruined. To me one
of the interesting things is that the ignition coils are still functional.
My primary purpose in starting this thread was to hopefully end up with a
definite fix for the problem. Trying this or that is not practicable due
to the destructive nature of the overheating. The stator is over $500 to
replace and requires pulling the engine to do so. I'll only really know
that the problem is fixed when the smoke stays in the coils.
It seems to me that the most important change will be to use the B&C AVC1
volltage regulator since it is designed for firewall forward and can be
adjusted down to 13.7 v which is the minimum voltage that will fully
charge the EarthX battery. With the voltage reduction should come current
reduction. What I don't know (and hopefully the educated on the list can
explain) is whether restricting the voltage will also restrict the
current. Can the generator still create abnormal current and therefore
heat. I will try and incorporate thermocouples in with the coils but I'm
not sure how much advance warning they can give.
So, with the new voltage regulator set at 13.7 can the generator still pump
out current based on engine speed and battery resistance or is the current
capped since the voltage is restricted. I'm trying to determine if I have a
good chance of success here.
Does anybody want to redesign the generator to make it more robust.
Paul
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 12:25 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:39 AM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> Using both windings is a good idea.
> What about the phase angle between the two windings? Do we know what it
> is?
>
>
> No . . .
>
> Suppose the two windings are 90 degrees out of phase or some other unknown
> angle.
> How will that affect the proposed circuit? Will the peak AC voltage be
> higher?
>
>
> Good question.
>
> I doubt they are polyphase . . . you gotta go to a
> lot of mechanical fuss to achieve it. It's a function
> of stator/magnet ring geometry. They might be different
> but it's doubtful. Issue 80 of Contact! magazine has
> some nice pictures of the stator arrangement:
>
> http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf
>
>
> Do capacitors help very much to smooth the DC voltage in a power circuit?
>
>
> They can . . . it's all about current/capacitance ratio
> versus frequency. If a capacitor is necessary, it will
> be dictated by the CCCV down converter tolerance for
> ripple.
>
> It would help to have a Revmaster alternator to play with.
>
>
> You got that right!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cigarette lighter socket to power a Garmin Aera |
660
| From: | "allenmaris" <allenmaris(at)gmail.com> |
Argonaut36 wrote:
> I have recently purchased a Garmin AERA 660 portable GPS navigator. The unit
holder to be used in the airplane is equipped with a cigarette lighter connector
plug (outfitted with a 3A fast fuse).
>
> Could somebody recommend a good quality cigarette lighter connector socket that
I can connect to the electrical system of my airplane? I would like to buy
a socket that can be installed using an Adel clamp.
>
> Thanks
I've heard good things about these on VAF.
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Charge-Charger/dp/B001U4ZZPK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521418596&sr=8-1&keywords=blue%2Bsea%2Busb&th=1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498285#498285
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Current is not capped. Current is determined by the load. The load takes
what it wants. Some loads such as batteries and resistance type loads will
take less current when the voltage drops. Loads with switching power
supplies will take more current as the voltage drops because they operate with
constant power. Many modern avionics have switching power supplies.
Lowering the voltage will reduce the EarthX battery charging current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498286#498286
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/9/2020 12:14 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Current is not capped. Current is determined by the load. The load takes
> what it wants. Some loads such as batteries and resistance type loads will
> take less current when the voltage drops. Loads with switching power
> supplies will take more current as the voltage drops because they operate with
> constant power. Many modern avionics have switching power supplies.
> Lowering the voltage will reduce the EarthX battery charging current.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
Ohm's Law sets the current. The battery has a source impedance when
supplying energy, and it has a load impedance when being charged. The
battery mfgr should be able to tell you the battery's load impedance
while charging (ask for worst case). That number, and the charge
voltage, will give you the charging current. Off-the-shelf 'smart'
battery chargers manage current by adjusting voltage 'on the fly',
tailored to optimum charge rates for a particular battery.
If I were dealing with a 'locked in' flaky design like the Revmaster,
I'd be looking at using a constant current source between the
alternator-regulator and the rest of the airframe. With lithium tech
being found everywhere now, constant voltage/constant current
(misleading term...) battery chargers are everywhere at very reasonable
prices. By inserting one between the regulator's output and the
airframe's bus, you can set the current limit in the charging module at
a point lower than the 'at risk' point for your alternator.
BTW, with a $500 price point, I'd be finding the original source for
that armature. That style alternator is used in dozens (hundreds?) of
products. I'd bet that with a little research, you could find that model
from the actual mfgr for a lot less money. If not, I'd be finding a way
to install an external alternator. I wouldn't be able to stand it. :-)
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AV 30 Wiring |
I would agree. On the second drawing, the only place TPS is shown is on those
wires with the "X".
Although it does appear the shields are grounded in two places. I thought the
idea was to always ground the shield at one end.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498289#498289
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming EIS wirig recommendation |
It's a SureFly.
https://www.lycoming.com/eis
> The Lycoming EIS was developed by SureFly Partners, Ltd. with input from Lycomings
engineering teams to meet Lycomings exacting specifications.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498290#498290
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
Well, for $500 you could rewind the stator by hand, and use a heavier gauge
wire.
I don't understand why this would be so expensive. You can get the entire c
harging system for a Harley for around $150.
Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android
On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 6:45, Paul Eckenroth wrote:
I think that there might be a misunderstanding of the Revmaster architect
ure in that I don't believe that the windings for the two generators are in
tandem but are a series=C2-of 5 coils each for two generators.=C2- =C2
-I have enclosed a picture of the stator from my friend's engine.=C2- H
e was running one generator at the time and you can see how severely it was
destroyed.=C2- The Phenolic=C2-base was also destroyed.=C2- The seco
nd generator coils don't look bad but they are also ruined.=C2- To me one
of the interesting things is that the ignition=C2-coils are still functi
onal.=C2-=C2-My primary purpose in starting this thread was to hopefull
y end up with a definite fix for the problem.=C2- Trying this or that is
not practicable due to the destructive nature of the overheating.=C2- The
stator is over $500 to replace and requires=C2-pulling the engine to do
so.=C2- I'll only really know that the problem is fixed when the smoke st
ays in the coils.=C2-It seems to me that the most important change will b
e to use the B&C AVC1 volltage regulator since it is designed for firewall
forward and can be adjusted down to 13.7 v=C2- which is the minimum volta
ge that will fully charge the EarthX battery.=C2- With the voltage reduct
ion should come current reduction.=C2- What I don't know (and hopefully t
he educated on the list can explain) is whether restricting the voltage wil
l also restrict the current.=C2- Can the generator still create abnormal
current and therefore heat. I will try and incorporate thermocouples in wit
h the coils but I'm not sure how much advance warning they can give.So, wit
h the new voltage regulator set at 13.7 can the generator still pump out cu
rrent based on engine speed and battery resistance or is the current capped
since the voltage is restricted. I'm trying to determine if I have a good
chance of success here.Does anybody want to redesign the generator to make
it more robust.
Paul
On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 12:25 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aero
electric.com> wrote:
At 10:39 AM 8/31/2020, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "user9253"
Using both windings is a good idea.
What about the phase angle between the two windings?=C2- Do we knowwhat i
t is?
=C2- No . . .
Suppose the two windings are 90degrees out of phase or some other unknown a
ngle.=C2-
How will that affect the proposed circuit?=C2- Will the peak AC voltagebe
higher?
=C2-
=C2- Good question.
=C2- I doubt they are polyphase . . . you gotta go to a
=C2- lot of mechanical fuss to achieve it. It's a function
=C2- of stator/magnet ring geometry. They might be different
=C2- but it's doubtful.=C2- Issue 80 of Contact! magazine has
=C2- some nice pictures of the stator arrangement:
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf
Do capacitors help very much tosmooth the DC voltage in a power circuit?
=C2- They can . . . it's all about current/capacitance ratio
=C2- versus frequency. If a capacitor is necessary, it will
=C2- be dictated by the CCCV down converter tolerance for
=C2- ripple.
It would help to have aRevmaster alternator to play with.
=C2- You got that right!
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
At 08:43 AM 9/9/2020, you wrote:
>I think that there might be a misunderstanding of the Revmaster
>architecture in that I don't believe that the windings for the
>two generators are in tandem but are a series of 5 coils each
>for two generators.
Hmmmm . . . if that's the case, then it's probably
accurate to call it a 'dual' alternator system . . .
or perhaps 1/2 + 1/2 alternators system.
The energy generation potential for these alternators
is a function of the magnetics/mechanics. Magnet
strength, magnetic cross-section of the stator
and rotor, permeability of the steels, air gaps
between moving parts, rates of change for
magnetic lines of force acting on the windings (rpm)
and a few other little details like losses in
the steels and windings.
Bottom line is that by dividing the two windings
between stator 'halves', the ability to do
the mechanical to electrical energy conversion
for each alternator is about 1/2 that of the
potential whole.
It would seem more practical to have all
the stator magnetics to participate in the
energy conversion efforts using fewer turns
per pole of heavier wire. One might then
achieve more robustness and more energy
output at the same time.
> I have enclosed a picture of the stator from my friend's engine.
I don't see that image . . . how did you 'enclose'
it?
>It seems to me that the most important change will be to use the B&C AVC1
>volltage regulator since it is designed for firewall forward and can be
>adjusted down to 13.7 v which is the minimum voltage that will fully charge
>the EarthX battery. With the voltage reduction should come current reduction.
Probably not. Keep in mind that as you rotate of the
runway into the blue, there are two kinds of loads
on your alternator. Battery recharge + system running
loads. The TOTAL of these two values is exceeding
the alternator's limitations for thermal management
and has not much to do with the bus voltage set-point.
The fact that an EarthX battery seems to exacerbate
the failure rate only speaks to that battery's
lower internal resistance and willingness to accept
charge at a lower voltage than SLVA.
I.e. the LiFEPO4 battery is NOT ROOT CAUSE of the
unhappy condition . . . only a slightly greater
stress on the alternator seems to exacerbate
failure rates. Adjusting the voltage down by
exploiting the features of the AVC1 might
reduce the failure rate but I kinda doubt it.
I've got a fully discharged ETX36D on the bench
that I'll try to plot the recharge profile when
impressed with a 13.7V set-point. But I'm
confident that an adjustable regulator will not
'fix' fundamental shortcomings of the alternator.
>What I don't know (and hopefully the educated on the list can explain)
>is whether restricting the voltage will also restrict the current.
Maybe a little
>Can the generator still create abnormal current and therefore heat.
You betcha . . . but system loads are much more
significant than characteristics of the battery.
>I will try and incorporate thermocouples in with the coils but I'm
>not sure how much advance warning they can give.
Lots of warning. Those wires don't smoke in tens
of milliseconds like fuses. The insulation degrades
over time . . . probably hours of operation at
temperatures exceeding design limits of the INSULATION.
I think this system would benefit greatly by some
extensive testing on a drive stand to optimize
wire size and turns against instrumented performance
measurements. The SD8 from B&C got tested with about
a half dozen exploratory configurations before the
final configuration went to production.
I'd like to see the performance characteristics
of the existing stator wound with fewer turns
of fatter wires on ALL available energy
production poles.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
At 05:25 PM 9/9/2020, you wrote:
>Well, for $500 you could rewind the stator by hand, and use a
>heavier gauge wire.
THAT would be a really good experiment!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AV 30 Wiring |
At 04:28 PM 9/9/2020, you wrote:
>
>I would agree. On the second drawing, the only place TPS is shown
>is on those wires with the "X".
>
>Although it does appear the shields are grounded in two places. I
>thought the idea was to always ground the shield at one end.
Yes . . . but.
If the design goal for shielding wires
is to BREAK and electro-static coupling
mode between potential antagonist/victim
wires, then yes . . . connect shield to
one ground only.
SOME installations exploit the shield as
part of the energy management goal. One
example can be seen in the Z-figures where
I recommend GROUNDING a p-lead shield at
the magneto end then using the shield
to provide a GROUND PATH for the switch
at the other end. Some authors have
suggested that p-leads need to be shield
grounded at BOTH ends which has no foundation
in physics and raises risks for some ground
loop issues.
I've also used the shield as a return
path for incandescent bulbs illuminating
a whisky compass. Providing a coaxially
concentric out-and-back path for bulb
currents cancels magnetic fields around
the wire and prevents illumination induced
heading errors.
The best thing to do is follow the
manufacturer's installation instructions.
I cannot assert they are always 'golden'
but there just might be a good reason
for doubling up shield terminations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 08:43 AM 9/9/2020, you wrote:
>
> > I think that there might be a misunderstanding of the Revmaster
> > architecture in that I don't believe that the windings for the
> > two generators are in tandem but are a series of 5 coils each
> > for two generators.
>
> Hmmmm . . . if that's the case, then it's probably
> accurate to call it a 'dual' alternator system . . .
> or perhaps 1/2 + 1/2 alternators system.
>
>
>
> > I have enclosed a picture of the stator from my friend's engine.
>
> I don't see that image . . . how did you 'enclose'
> it?
>
>
Images as attachments of the R2300 from when I first received my engine in 2017.
There are two separate stator windings, 5 coils on each stator with relatively
large wires (12 AWG ?). Next time I pull the engine, I'll mic the wires on the
coils.
Note, setting this up as a center tap as suggested should be straight forward.
Again I have to state that I think the average current with your center tap arrangement
will be the same as the OEM half wave R/R with both sides enabled.
>
> I think this system would benefit greatly by some
> extensive testing on a drive stand to optimize
> wire size and turns against instrumented performance
> measurements. The SD8 from B&C got tested with about
> a half dozen exploratory configurations before the
> final configuration went to production.
>
> I'd like to see the performance characteristics
> of the existing stator wound with fewer turns
> of fatter wires on ALL available energy
> production poles.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
I will try to obtain some fundamental characteristics of the alternators within
the next 30 days. (i.e. short circuit current, open circuit voltage at starter
rpm, inductance...).
Let me point out the obvious,... "redesigning this system puts the builder in a
situation of complete ownership of the problem as it is doubtful Revmaster will
support a modified system." The OBAM pilot takes on that responsibility (or
should he/she does) regardless of the OEM support, so maybe that is not worth
mentioning.
Adding an external alternator is not obvious (to me) where it would mount but
earlier versions of the engine had external alternators (I believe), so the design
components could be available Revmaster. I amazed (concerned) that with
the close proximity of the CDI power coils and ignition electronics that there
are no reported failures of that system, related to the alternator failures.
makes me want to consider returning to 2 mags and an external alternator for
the R2300. Again, maybe easier said the executed but certainly a design that
was once available.
One thing that puzzles me though. At least one failure of BOTH alternators, as
reported by Eric or Paul, occurred with only one alternator activated. How is
it possible to overheat both sides simultaneously (through heat conduction I
have to assume) without damaging the ingnition coils that sit between the two
alternators ??
(Molex connectors and wires in my photo from the two ignition coils and the timing
signals are shown).
I have to suspect there is another heat source or cause that is contributing to
these PMA failures. Engine heat?
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498299#498299
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/20200910_154510000_ios_107.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/20200910_152443000_ios_116.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
There are 4 black screws in the picture that look like they might hold a cover
on. Is it possible to pipe pressurized air into that cover to cool the coils?
If the coils were kept cool, their ampacity would be greatly increased.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498300#498300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FRANK MCDONALD <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
Is there a way to get a simple pdf version of the newest revision of Z101? I am
not a CAD person, though I admire those that are.
Thanks much.
Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Yes Frank
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
there you find all as PDF's
On 10.09.2020 20:42, FRANK MCDONALD wrote:
> Is there a way to get a simple pdf version of the newest revision of
> Z101? I am not a CAD person, though I admire those that are.
> Thanks much.
> Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
Hopefully here is the image of the stator that I thought was sent
previously.
Paul
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:51 PM dj_theis wrote:
>
>
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> > At 08:43 AM 9/9/2020, you wrote:
> >
> > > I think that there might be a misunderstanding of the Revmaster
> > > architecture in that I don't believe that the windings for the
> > > two generators are in tandem but are a series of 5 coils each
> > > for two generators.
> >
> > Hmmmm . . . if that's the case, then it's probably
> > accurate to call it a 'dual' alternator system . . .
> > or perhaps 1/2 + 1/2 alternators system.
> >
> >
> >
> > > I have enclosed a picture of the stator from my friend's engine.
> >
> > I don't see that image . . . how did you 'enclose'
> > it?
> >
> >
>
>
> Images as attachments of the R2300 from when I first received my engine in
> 2017.
> There are two separate stator windings, 5 coils on each stator with
> relatively large wires (12 AWG ?). Next time I pull the engine, I'll mic
> the wires on the coils.
> Note, setting this up as a center tap as suggested should be straight
> forward. Again I have to state that I think the average current with your
> center tap arrangement will be the same as the OEM half wave R/R with both
> sides enabled.
>
>
> >
> > I think this system would benefit greatly by some
> > extensive testing on a drive stand to optimize
> > wire size and turns against instrumented performance
> > measurements. The SD8 from B&C got tested with about
> > a half dozen exploratory configurations before the
> > final configuration went to production.
> >
> > I'd like to see the performance characteristics
> > of the existing stator wound with fewer turns
> > of fatter wires on ALL available energy
> > production poles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
> I will try to obtain some fundamental characteristics of the alternators
> within the next 30 days. (i.e. short circuit current, open circuit voltage
> at starter rpm, inductance...).
>
> Let me point out the obvious,... "redesigning this system puts the builder
> in a situation of complete ownership of the problem as it is doubtful
> Revmaster will support a modified system." The OBAM pilot takes on that
> responsibility (or should he/she does) regardless of the OEM support, so
> maybe that is not worth mentioning.
>
> Adding an external alternator is not obvious (to me) where it would
> mount but earlier versions of the engine had external alternators (I
> believe), so the design components could be available Revmaster. I amazed
> (concerned) that with the close proximity of the CDI power coils and
> ignition electronics that there are no reported failures of that system,
> related to the alternator failures. makes me want to consider returning to
> 2 mags and an external alternator for the R2300. Again, maybe easier said
> the executed but certainly a design that was once available.
>
> One thing that puzzles me though. At least one failure of BOTH
> alternators, as reported by Eric or Paul, occurred with only one alternator
> activated. How is it possible to overheat both sides simultaneously
> (through heat conduction I have to assume) without damaging the ingnition
> coils that sit between the two alternators ??
>
> (Molex connectors and wires in my photo from the two ignition coils and
> the timing signals are shown).
>
> I have to suspect there is another heat source or cause that is
> contributing to these PMA failures. Engine heat?
>
> Dan Theis
>
> --------
> Scratch building Sonex #1362
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498299#498299
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/20200910_154510000_ios_107.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/20200910_152443000_ios_116.jpg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
user9253 wrote:
> There are 4 black screws in the picture that look like they might hold a cover
> on. Is it possible to pipe pressurized air into that cover to cool the coils?
> If the coils were kept cool, their ampacity would be greatly increased.
It is possible and I agree it's worth considering. I'll look at the CDI eletronics
casting (which is what those screws hold in place) to see if there is a
pathway to generate an inlet and egress for air. I don't have any good photos
of the inside of that casting. Maybe I can pull that casting off without pulling
the engine. I'll look tonight.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498307#498307
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
At 03:18 PM 9/10/2020, you wrote:
>Hopefully here is the image of the stator that I thought was sent previously.
>
>Paul
Excellent . . . thank you. I agree, this definitely
appears to be a PAIR of 5-pole alternators.
Good data point.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
Thanks very much.
Frank
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7
912S, Sensenich Composite 3 Blade
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498309#498309
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
Dan
I'll try and get a picture of that casting for you.
Paul
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 4:54 PM dj_theis wrote:
>
>
> user9253 wrote:
> > There are 4 black screws in the picture that look like they might hold a
> cover
> > on. Is it possible to pipe pressurized air into that cover to cool the
> coils?
> > If the coils were kept cool, their ampacity would be greatly increased.
>
>
> It is possible and I agree it's worth considering. I'll look at the CDI
> eletronics casting (which is what those screws hold in place) to see if
> there is a pathway to generate an inlet and egress for air. I don't have
> any good photos of the inside of that casting. Maybe I can pull that
> casting off without pulling the engine. I'll look tonight.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Dan Theis
>
> --------
> Scratch building Sonex #1362
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498307#498307
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Revmaster 'dual' alterantors |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
N509RV(at)eckenroth.com wrote:
> Dan
>
> I'll try andget a picture of that casting for you.
>
>
> Paul
>
>
Thanks Paul,
I was able to get an image (attached) of the outside of the casting. With 5e CDI
casting removed, does it appear that there is an air flow path that would help
ventilate the PMA coils?
I am imagining having a fitting to feed air from the top of the engine on one side
(shown in the photo) and allow the exit air on the other side of the casting
to exit into the lower engine area.
Dan
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498312#498312
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c29bc5c2_f51d_4e86_8c7c_d7d5a3a18286_175.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group I'm a bit confused how to figure C-rating of a battery. Here's my dilemma,
here's a 5,000mA battery that say's it's good for 10C continuous and 15C
burst: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-sub-c-1-2v-5000mah-high-power-series-nimh-single-cell.html?queryID=3ed79812e155e159b8e96c63dba8378a&objectID=41335&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products
Initial thoughts is just multiply 5 times 10 or 15. Then I read a review and the
battery never made it to 5amp capacity and the capacity goes down the more amps
you draw from it. Here's the review: https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Turnigy%20Sub-C%205000mAh%20(Gray)%20UK.html
If I wanted to know what the continuous C rating is for this battery, would you
take the unrealistic too high 5aH capacity rating from the Mfg times 10? Take
the ~3.5 20 amp discharge capacity rating from the review times 10? Or??
Now for another hard question, how would you figure out burst amp rating? Thx.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498313#498313
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
Multiply 5000 by 10 for continuous, which is 50,000 milliamps, or 50 amps.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:38 PM rparigoris wrote:
> rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
>
> Hi Group I'm a bit confused how to figure C-rating of a battery. Here's my
> dilemma, here's a 5,000mA battery that say's it's good for 10C continuous
> and 15C burst:
> https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-sub-c-1-2v-5000mah-high-power-series-nimh-single-cell.html?queryID=3ed79812e155e159b8e96c63dba8378a&objectID=41335&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products
> Initial thoughts is just multiply 5 times 10 or 15. Then I read a review
> and the battery never made it to 5amp capacity and the capacity goes down
> the more amps you draw from it. Here's the review:
> https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Turnigy%20Sub-C%205000mAh%20(Gray)%20UK.html
> If I wanted to know what the continuous C rating is for this battery,
> would you take the unrealistic too high 5aH capacity rating from the Mfg
> times 10? Take the ~3.5 20 amp discharge capacity rating from the review
> times 10? Or??
> Now for another hard question, how would you figure out burst amp rating?
> Thx. Ron P.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498313#498313
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Nav Light CB Rating |
What is the suggested CB rating of a navigation light circuit on a 14 VDC
system?
The airplane is fiberglass so the Nav light circuit is 53 feet from the CB
to the switch to the Nav light fixture and back to the forest of grounds and
it is wired with 18 AWG wire? My current system has a 5 AMP CB that
services only the two navigation light bulb fixtures that each has two bulbs
(total of 4 incandescent light bulbs).
I do not know the manufacturer of the light fixture so I do not have any
idea what these light bulbs draw. It was suggested that I install a 5 AMP
CB and when I turn on the switch the lights all illuminate and they stay on
for about 20 minutes and then the CB pops. On hotter days the time before
the CB pops is more like 10 minutes so it seems that the thermal load on the
current 5 AMP CB is too great. Of course I can upgrade the CB but I would
prefer to know if a 7 AMP or 10 amp is preferred so that is why I am
reaching out to the experts on the subject.
As always THANKS for your help!!!.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nav Light CB Rating |
Bill,
If you get the numbers from those bulbs you can look them up and find their
current rating.=C2- That way you know for sure what you've got.
But #18 wire is fine at 10 amps, so just upgrade to a 10 amp breaker and ca
ll it good.
Remember, the CB is there to protect the wire not the load.
mail.com wrote:
What is the suggested CB rating of a navigation light circuit on a 14 VDC
system?
The airplane is fiberglass so the Nav light circuit is 53 feet from the CB
to the switch to the Nav light fixture and back to the forest of grounds an
d
it is wired with 18 AWG wire?=C2- My current system has a 5 AMP CB that
services only the two navigation light bulb fixtures that each has two bulb
s
(total of 4 incandescent light bulbs).
I do not know the manufacturer of the light fixture so I do not have any
idea what these light bulbs draw.=C2- It was suggested that I install a 5
AMP
CB and when I turn on the switch the lights all illuminate and they stay on
for about 20 minutes and then the CB pops.=C2- On hotter days the time be
fore
the CB pops is more like 10 minutes so it seems that the thermal load on th
e
current 5 AMP CB is too great.=C2- Of course I can upgrade the CB but I w
ould
prefer to know if a 7 AMP or 10 amp is preferred so that is why I am
reaching out to the experts on the subject.
As always THANKS for your help!!!.
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Nav Light CB Rating |
Thanks Jeffgreatly appreciate the help!!!
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nav Light CB Rating
Bill,
If you get the numbers from those bulbs you can look them up and find
their current rating. That way you know for sure what you've got.
But #18 wire is fine at 10 amps, so just upgrade to a 10 amp breaker and
call it good.
Remember, the CB is there to protect the wire not the load.
-Jeff
billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com
> wrote:
>
What is the suggested CB rating of a navigation light circuit on a 14
VDC
system?
The airplane is fiberglass so the Nav light circuit is 53 feet from the
CB
to the switch to the Nav light fixture and back to the forest of grounds
and
it is wired with 18 AWG wire? My current system has a 5 AMP CB that
services only the two navigation light bulb fixtures that each has two
bulbs
(total of 4 incandescent light bulbs).
I do not know the manufacturer of the light fixture so I do not have any
idea what these light bulbs draw. It was suggested that I install a 5
AMP
CB and when I turn on the switch the lights all illuminate and they stay
on
for about 20 minutes and then the CB pops. On hotter days the time
before
the CB pops is more like 10 minutes so it seems that the thermal load on
the
current 5 AMP CB is too great. Of course I can upgrade the CB but I
would
prefer to know if a 7 AMP or 10 amp is preferred so that is why I am
reaching out to the experts on the subject.
As always THANKS for your help!!!.
_/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Na= -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS= --> <http://forums.matronics.com>
/wiki.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com> "
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
http://www.mat===
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mike Pienaar <mikepienaar09(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Nav Light CB Rating |
I have Whelen position lights and current draw is 7.5 amp
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 11, 2020, at 2:38 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
>
> Bill,
>
> If you get the numbers from those bulbs you can look them up and find thei
r current rating. That way you know for sure what you've got.
>
> But #18 wire is fine at 10 amps, so just upgrade to a 10 amp breaker and c
all it good.
>
> Remember, the CB is there to protect the wire not the load.
>
>
> -Jeff
wrote:
>
>
>
> What is the suggested CB rating of a navigation light circuit on a 14 VDC
> system?
>
> The airplane is fiberglass so the Nav light circuit is 53 feet from the CB
> to the switch to the Nav light fixture and back to the forest of grounds a
nd
> it is wired with 18 AWG wire? My current system has a 5 AMP CB that
> services only the two navigation light bulb fixtures that each has two bul
bs
> (total of 4 incandescent light bulbs).
>
> I do not know the manufacturer of the light fixture so I do not have any
> idea what these light bulbs draw. It was suggested that I install a 5 AMP
> CB and when I turn on the switch the lights all illuminate and they stay o
n
> for about 20 minutes and then the CB pops. On hotter days the time before
> the CB pops is more like 10 minutes so it seems that the thermal load on t
he
> current 5 AMP CB is too great. Of course I can upgrade the CB but I would
> prefer to know if a 7 AMP or 10 amp is preferred so that is why I am
> reaching out to the experts on the subject.
>
> As always THANKS for your help!!!.
> _/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
Na= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS= -->
> /wiki.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> http://www.mat===
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
Ron,
The Amp Hour rating for a battery is kind of a theoretical number.=C2- In
theory, a 5 Ah rating should deliver 5 amps for one hour but real batterie
s rarely, if ever, do.=C2- It is more likely to deliver 1 A for 5 hours.
=C2-=C2-
Theoretically:=C2- Ah = Time (in hours) x Amps
That is a linear equation, but as the current drain increases the length of
time decreases in a non-linear fashion.
Those 10C & 15C ratings are typical for batteries used in model aircraft &
cars and are usually a little optimistic.
The 10C rating is telling you that the battery supposedly has enough "grunt
" to deliver 50 amps, but only for a very short period of time, like a minu
te or two, if that.=C2- A lesser battery could not deliver 50 A at all, a
nd if you tried to pull that kind of current, the battery voltage would dro
p-off precipitously.
I fly electric R/C airplanes using Li-po batteries (as opposed to the nicke
l-metal batts you are referring to) and they can deliver 20C+.=C2- That m
eans, for a 2 Ah battery, it can deliver up to 40 amps in short bursts, lik
e when doing a full-throttle climb for 5-10 seconds.=C2- But the typical
total flight time for RC airplanes is less than 10 minutes.=C2- We pull a
lot of power for a short (no pun intended) duration.
I'm not sure that answers you questions, but may give you some context.
If we knew more about you application, we might be able to provide more use
ful information.
-Jeff
dyates.com> wrote:
Multiply 5000 by 10 for continuous, which is 50,000 milliamps, or 50 amps.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:38 PM rparigoris wrote:
>
Hi Group I'm a bit confused how to figure C-rating of a battery. Here's my
dilemma, here's a 5,000mA battery that say's it's good for 10C continuous a
nd 15C burst: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-sub-c-1-2v-5000mah-high-p
ower-series-nimh-single-cell.html?queryID=3ed79812e155e159b8e96c63dba8378
a&objectID=41335&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products
Initial thoughts is just multiply 5 times 10 or 15. Then I read a review an
d the battery never made it to 5amp capacity and the capacity goes down the
more amps you draw from it. Here's the review: https://lygte-info.dk/revie
w/batteries2012/Turnigy%20Sub-C%205000mAh%20(Gray)%20UK.html
If I wanted to know what the continuous C rating is for this battery, would
you take the unrealistic too high 5aH capacity rating from the Mfg times 1
0? Take the ~3.5 20 amp discharge capacity rating from the review times 10?
Or??
Now for another hard question, how would you figure out burst amp rating? T
hx. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498313#498313
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
b Site -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
"If we knew more about you application, we might be able to provide more useful
information." I have a Europa XS with both long and short wings powered by a
Rotax 914. Although true if you have enough altitude you can put the prop in course
pitch and air start, but with a cold engine it's hard on the engine and
you need enough altitude and a good place to land if restart is unsuccessful to
do it safety. Gettin a battery cold soaked can hurt performance for inflight
restart or in the middle of nowhere ground start.
I too was an electric model guy 15 years ago when the hottest sub C cell was a GP 2200mA. http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27335 I made up a pack that I could wire direct to fuel pump 2 to keep at least 1 fuel pump running if all else failed. So my initial mission was to just run a 2 amp fuel pump with a total loss battery. Since sub C NiMh batteries have been growing in capacity and ability to dump amps I was thinking I could use it for double duty as a jump pack for ships battery in a pinch. I will be using a Earth-X 680. My concern is when connecting NiMh pack to a 680 that is low on charge amperage draw between the 2 could be quite high. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498320#498320
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
... so you are looking for some kind of power source to start your Rotax i
n an emergency?=C2- Is that correct?
The issue of batteries of different type charging each other would be a fun
ction of the difference in voltage between them.=C2- I don't know anythin
g about EarthX batts but since you would be building you own pack from indi
vidual NiMh cells, you could build a pack that is close in voltage to the E
arthX, maybe?
There is also the possibility of isolating the EarthX batt from the NiMh ba
ttery using diodes.
I'm not sure but, I think it would take a bunch of NiMh batts to make a pac
k with enough power to crank an engine.
I believe that the EarthX are lithium based batteries (again, don't know mu
ch about them) but that battery chemistry has very high energy density.=C2
- Much higher than NiMh, so if you're looking for some kind of backup bat
tery, you're probably better off with the lithium-based batts and their hig
her energy density and lower weight.
-Jeff
tmail.com> wrote:
m>
"If we knew more about you application, we might be able to provide more us
eful information." I have a Europa XS with both long and short wings powere
d by a Rotax 914. Although true if you have enough altitude you can put the
prop in course pitch and air start, but with a cold engine it's hard on th
e engine and you need enough altitude and a good place to land if restart i
s unsuccessful to do it safety. Gettin a battery cold soaked can hurt perfo
rmance for inflight restart or in the middle of nowhere ground start.
I too was an electric model guy 15 years ago when the hottest sub C cell wa
s a GP 2200mA. http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27335 I mad
e up a pack that I could wire direct to fuel pump 2 to keep at least 1 fuel
pump running if all else failed. So my initial mission was to just run a 2
amp fuel pump with a total loss battery. Since sub C NiMh batteries have b
een growing in capacity and ability to dump amps I was thinking I could use
it for double duty as a jump pack for ships battery in a pinch. I will be
using a Earth-X 680. My concern is when connecting NiMh pack to a 680 that
is low on charge amperage draw between the 2 could be quite high. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498320#498320
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Management Assignment Help and Writing Service in Australia |
| From: | "eillajones309" <eillajones309(at)gmail.com> |
Searching for Management Assignment Help and Writing Service in Australia? Students
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498323#498323
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
At 02:22 PM 9/11/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group I'm a bit confused how to figure C-rating of a battery.
>Here's my dilemma, here's a 5,000mA battery that say's it's good for
>10C continuous and 15C burst:
>https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-sub-c-1-2v-5000mah-high-power-series-nimh-single-cell.html?queryID=3ed79812e155e159b8e96c63dba8378a&objectID=41335&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products
>Initial thoughts is just multiply 5 times 10 or 15. Then I read a
>review and the battery never made it to 5amp capacity and the
>capacity goes down the more amps you draw from it. Here's the
>review:
>https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Turnigy%20Sub-C%205000mAh%20(Gray)%20UK.html
>If I wanted to know what the continuous C rating is for this
>battery, would you take the unrealistic too high 5aH capacity rating
>from the Mfg times 10? Take the ~3.5 20 amp discharge capacity
>rating from the review times 10? Or??
>Now for another hard question, how would you figure out burst amp
>rating? Thx. Ron P.
One generally doesn't 'figure' any of that stuff.
I'm pleasantly surprised when bench tests echo
the nameplate ratings on any consumer production
cell. Incorporation of any particular
device into a project requires good DATA.
Brands like A123, Samsung, Panasonic, Enersys,
et. als. will publish data sheets with realistic
performance metrics.
Here are some sample engineering data sheets
on products offered by reputable manufacturers.
https://tinyurl.com/y425k3x6
Note that they offer detailed information, particularly
discharge data that allows the system integrator
to incorporate the device with confidence.
No way in this universe are these cells
capable of 6000 mAH . . .
https://tinyurl.com/yyf64qe6
Another example of 'blue smoke' merchandising
https://tinyurl.com/y2j9dkoh
Note the 12v, 2A power input jack . . . 200
watts? Gimme a break. Now, I've used numerous
examples of these amplifiers over the past 20
years . . . and they're quite capable of the
2-3 watts per channel called out in the spec
sheets for the integrated circuits from which
they are built.
Attached are data plots on some 18650 cells
marketed as '5500 mAH' devices with '10A
pulse capability'.
I was considering these cells for modifying
a 20+ year old Makita drill from MiMh to
Lithium. Tests on the drill demonstrated
peak loads on the order of 10A.
Based on some 'marketing' assertions I purchased
some cells for consideration. The cells clearly
tested at MUCH less capacity and sagged by 25%
voltage under just a 5 Amps load. Clearly
incapable of practical service at 10A.
Note the difference in stored energy for having
been charged to 3.7 versus 4.2 Volts. If you
charged these cells in a charger optimized
for LiFePO4, you would achieve about 1/2 the
chemical capacity of the cell.
Sorry Ron, the short answer is, "Lacking
engineering performance data on the proposed
device, you're searching around in a coal
mine for a black cat with no flashlight."
I'm not implying that ALL marketing hype is
suspect . . . I've purchased many products that met
their nameplate performance ratings quite
well. But lacking hard data from the manufacturer
or your own measurements, then it's a bit of
a crap shoot.
If you have exemplar cells you're considering
for the task, mail them to me and I'll suck
out their precious bodily fluids to MEASURE
from what stuff they are made.
By the way, the performance benchmark "Ampere-Hour"
is useful only when comparing one device with
a competing device. It has no definition in the
science of energy measurement. The scientific
description for energy will be in units
like Watt-Hours, Joules, Ergs, etc.
Definition of an Erg: "The energy required to lift
a postage stamp to a height equal to its thickness"
== Robert A. Heinlein, "Rocket Ship Galileo" 1947 =
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
Regarding 18650 cells... etc.
I purchased a few samples from different suppliers with ratings up to 4500
mAh. The ones rated at 4500 mah felt lighter in weight than the similar
cells rated at 3000 mAh. A friend designs medical x-ray machines so I
asked if he would x-ray one of the light weight cells and one "normal"
cell. Unfortunately I don't have an image to share. A description will
suffice. The light weight cell housed a much smaller cell. Hmmm!
Simerly I was replacing the output transistor in a regulated bench power
supply. I recall it was a 2N3055. I found a "deal" on Ebay. Five for
$5... Upon receipt I noticed the marking on the case didn't appear quite
right. It was labeled STM... lightly scratching the marking it readily
came off. Hmmm. Using a Dremel tool with a cut-off wheel I removed the
top of the case. Voila! A tiny junction with .002" bond wires! That
someone can make a living going to the trouble of
counterfeiting transistors!
Caveat Emptor
Chris Stone
On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 9:36 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 02:22 PM 9/11/2020, you wrote:
>
> rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
>
> Hi Group I'm a bit confused how to figure C-rating of a battery. Here's my
> dilemma, here's a 5,000mA battery that say's it's good for 10C continuous
> and 15C burst:
> https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-sub-c-1-2v-5000mah-high-power-series-nimh-single-cell.html?queryID=3ed79812e155e159b8e96c63dba8378a&objectID=41335&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products
> Initial thoughts is just multiply 5 times 10 or 15. Then I read a review
> and the battery never made it to 5amp capacity and the capacity goes down
> the more amps you draw from it. Here's the review:
> https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Turnigy%20Sub-C%205000mAh%20(Gray)%20UK.html
> If I wanted to know what the continuous C rating is for this battery,
> would you take the unrealistic too high 5aH capacity rating from the Mfg
> times 10? Take the ~3.5 20 amp discharge capacity rating from the review
> times 10? Or??
> Now for another hard question, how would you figure out burst amp rating?
> Thx. Ron P.
>
>
> One generally doesn't 'figure' any of that stuff.
>
> I'm pleasantly surprised when bench tests echo
> the nameplate ratings on any consumer production
> cell. Incorporation of any particular
> device into a project requires good DATA.
> Brands like A123, Samsung, Panasonic, Enersys,
> et. als. will publish data sheets with realistic
> performance metrics.
>
> Here are some sample engineering data sheets
> on products offered by reputable manufacturers.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y425k3x6
>
> Note that they offer detailed information, particularly
> discharge data that allows the system integrator
> to incorporate the device with confidence.
>
> No way in this universe are these cells
> capable of 6000 mAH . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yyf64qe6
>
> Another example of 'blue smoke' merchandising
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y2j9dkoh
>
> Note the 12v, 2A power input jack . . . 200
> watts? Gimme a break. Now, I've used numerous
> examples of these amplifiers over the past 20
> years . . . and they're quite capable of the
> 2-3 watts per channel called out in the spec
> sheets for the integrated circuits from which
> they are built.
>
> Attached are data plots on some 18650 cells
> marketed as '5500 mAH' devices with '10A
> pulse capability'.
>
> I was considering these cells for modifying
> a 20+ year old Makita drill from MiMh to
> Lithium. Tests on the drill demonstrated
> peak loads on the order of 10A.
>
> Based on some 'marketing' assertions I purchased
> some cells for consideration. The cells clearly
> tested at MUCH less capacity and sagged by 25%
> voltage under just a 5 Amps load. Clearly
> incapable of practical service at 10A.
>
> Note the difference in stored energy for having
> been charged to 3.7 versus 4.2 Volts. If you
> charged these cells in a charger optimized
> for LiFePO4, you would achieve about 1/2 the
> chemical capacity of the cell.
>
> Sorry Ron, the short answer is, "Lacking
> engineering performance data on the proposed
> device, you're searching around in a coal
> mine for a black cat with no flashlight."
>
> I'm not implying that ALL marketing hype is
> suspect . . . I've purchased many products that met
> their nameplate performance ratings quite
> well. But lacking hard data from the manufacturer
> or your own measurements, then it's a bit of
> a crap shoot.
>
> If you have exemplar cells you're considering
> for the task, mail them to me and I'll suck
> out their precious bodily fluids to MEASURE
> from what stuff they are made.
>
> By the way, the performance benchmark "Ampere-Hour"
> is useful only when comparing one device with
> a competing device. It has no definition in the
> science of energy measurement. The scientific
> description for energy will be in units
> like Watt-Hours, Joules, Ergs, etc.
>
> Definition of an Erg: "The energy required to lift
> a postage stamp to a height equal to its thickness"
> == Robert A. Heinlein, "Rocket Ship Galileo" 1947 =
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
So it is alternator whine. It's present when the strobes are off. When
they're on, it does warble a bit. There is a bit of strobe noise with
both alternators off and just the battery on but it's not obnoxious at
all. There's no noise at when running on the backup alternator.
--Rick
-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator/Strobe whine
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 19:47:49 -0400
From: Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org>
I'll be back at the plane on Saturday and I will do some controlled
tests. The noise pitch is definitely in sync with the strobes. When I
turn the main alternator off the noise goes away completely. My memory
is that it also goes away when I turn the strobes off (main alternator
on), but I'm not sure if there's a residual whine.
--Rick
On 9/8/2020 4:41 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Alternator, strobe or both?
>
> Alternator whine is almost always a ground loop issue.
> Pitch of whine will go up and down with engine rpm.
> It often gets louder when alternator loads are highest
> like right after starting engine (recharging battery)
> and all loads turned on.
>
> Strobe whine pitches up and down in synchronization
> with flashes from the strobes and is generally of
> constant volume.
>
> Which one(s) disappear when appliance is OFF.
> Alternator, strobe or both?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group Thank you for replies. Again I want a dual mission total loss battery, one to run a Rotax 914 fuel pump which I'm certain the 5,000mA cells are up to the task and two is to jump start main battery in a pinch. My dilemma is if I hook up NiMh pack to a flattened Earth-X battery the amp draw can be quite high. Not sure just how high and not sure how many amps the NiMh cells can dump. OK let's take a different tact for in a pinch jump starting. I posted a link to discharge table up to 20 amps for NiMh cells. I feel confident those cells can handle a discharge rate of 30 amps. What's thoughts of using this to limit amperage draw on NiMh cells when using them to jump?: http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=184069714833&category=117000&pm=1&ds=0&t=1596298535000&ver=0
I have EZ pilot access on passenger headrest where I could make a series converter
with red and black Anderson Power Pole connectors. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498332#498332
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group Thank you for replies. Again I want a dual mission total loss battery, one to run a Rotax 914 fuel pump which I'm certain the 5,000mA cells are up to the task and two is to jump start main battery in a pinch. My dilemma is if I hook up NiMh pack to a flattened Earth-X battery the amp draw can be quite high. Not sure just how high and not sure how many amps the NiMh cells can dump. OK let's take a different tact for in a pinch jump starting. I posted a link to discharge table up to 20 amps for NiMh cells. I feel confident those cells can handle a discharge rate of 30 amps. What's thoughts of using this to limit amperage draw on NiMh cells when using them to jump?: http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=184069714833&category=117000&pm=1&ds=0&t=1596298535000&ver=0
I have EZ pilot access on passenger headrest where I could make a series converter
with red and black Anderson Power Pole connectors. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498333#498333
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/13/2020 9:53 AM, rparigoris wrote:
>
> Hi Group Thank you for replies. Again I want a dual mission total loss battery, one to run a Rotax 914 fuel pump which I'm certain the 5,000mA cells are up to the task and two is to jump start main battery in a pinch. My dilemma is if I hook up NiMh pack to a flattened Earth-X battery the amp draw can be quite high. Not sure just how high and not sure how many amps the NiMh cells can dump. OK let's take a different tact for in a pinch jump starting. I posted a link to discharge table up to 20 amps for NiMh cells. I feel confident those cells can handle a discharge rate of 30 amps. What's thoughts of using this to limit amperage draw on NiMh cells when using them to jump?: http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=184069714833&category=117000&pm=1&ds=0&t=1596298535000&ver=0
> I have EZ pilot access on passenger headrest where I could make a series converter
with red and black Anderson Power Pole connectors. Ron P.
>
>
I think we still don't have enough detail on your hypothetical
'situation' needs. On the one hand, you're talking about powering just a
fuel pump (implying a total electrical failure), and the other about
either jump-starting the engine, or recharging a dead battery, but we
don't know if that means a failed charging system or just a run-down
battery.
We do know that NiMh cells have much lower energy density than any of
the lithium tech. Transferring energy to a lithium tech battery from
NiMh cells just doesn't sound like a reasonable path to me, for a
variety of reasons.
I'm pretty 'cheap'; I've been known to expend prodigious effort to save
a few $. But from what I think I understand about your goals, I'd find
it hard to resist just picking up one of the dozens of lithium 'jump
start' packs. They have high current cables for jump starting, and
almost all of them now include smaller terminals, adapters, etc that
allow connection of devices with lower current demands. $55-$75 will get
you pre-packaged cells, cables, a handful of adapters, etc, very close
to 'plug&play'. I'll bet that by the time you gather up all the stuff
you need to make your idea work, you'll have close to that much money
tied up, and a *lot* more work. Way more starting current than you'd
ever need, and even the cheapest versions will have more total energy to
run the fuel pump than the NiMh cells.
Charlie
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
At 09:53 AM 9/13/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group Thank you for replies. Again I want a dual mission total
>loss battery, one to run a Rotax 914 fuel pump which I'm certain the
>5,000mA cells are up to the task and two is to jump start main
>battery in a pinch.
Is there a history for the failure modes
you are hypothesizing? Under what series
of events would you find it necessary to
operated a fuel pump from it's own back
up battery?
Jump start? Lithium main battery? Going
airborne with an essentially dead main
battery after jump starting the engine
is poor practice. Not recommended in
any advice I've read or written.
How hard is it to (1) prevent the main
battery from becoming depleted while
parked and (2) maintaining the main
battery in a manner that guarantees
availability for alternator-out
situations?
I think we're all having trouble
understanding justification for what
you propose.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
>I'm pretty 'cheap'; I've been known to expend prodigious effort to
>save a few $. But from what I think I understand about your goals,
>I'd find it hard to resist just picking up one of the dozens of
>lithium 'jump start' packs. They have high current cables for jump
>starting, and almost all of them now include smaller terminals,
>adapters, etc that allow connection of devices with lower current
>demands. $55-$75 will get you pre-packaged cells, cables, a handful
>of adapters, etc, very close to 'plug&play'. I'll bet that by the
>time you gather up all the stuff you need to make your idea work,
>you'll have close to that much money tied up, and a *lot* more work.
>Way more starting current than you'd ever need, and even the
>cheapest versions will have more total energy to run the fuel pump
>than the NiMh cells.
>
>Charlie
Sure. If he drops the 'jump start' requirement
but has an FMEA driven justification for a
stand-by battery on the fuel pump, these batteries
connected in series would run the pump for a very
long time . . . probably duration of fuel aboard.
https://tinyurl.com/y4oulfy9
Down side is the legacy stand-by-battery-cost-
of-ownership for insuring continued air worthiness.
I'd like to understand what conditions would drive
the need in the first place.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/13/2020 11:06 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> I'm pretty 'cheap'; I've been known to expend prodigious effort to
>> save a few $. But from what I think I understand about your goals,
>> I'd find it hard to resist just picking up one of the dozens of
>> lithium 'jump start' packs. They have high current cables for jump
>> starting, and almost all of them now include smaller terminals,
>> adapters, etc that allow connection of devices with lower current
>> demands. $55-$75 will get you pre-packaged cells, cables, a handful
>> of adapters, etc, very close to 'plug&play'. I'll bet that by the
>> time you gather up all the stuff you need to make your idea work,
>> you'll have close to that much money tied up, and a *lot* more work.
>> Way more starting current than you'd ever need, and even the cheapest
>> versions will have more total energy to run the fuel pump than the
>> NiMh cells.
>>
>> Charlie
>
>
> Sure. If he drops the 'jump start' requirement
> but has an FMEA driven justification for a
> stand-by battery on the fuel pump, these batteries
> connected in series would run the pump for a very
> long time . . . probably duration of fuel aboard.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y4oulfy9
>
> Down side is the legacy
> stand-by-battery-cost-
> of-ownership for insuring continued air worthiness.
> I'd like to understand what conditions would drive
> the need in the first place.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
As I said in the earlier section of that post, we don't know his actual
needs. But if 'jump start' or 'recharge' involves being stuck out in the
boonies with no access to service or a charger (which could easily
happen at a paved, government-run airport in some parts of the country),
then I can see having a 'jump start' pack in my emergency kit.
There may be no reason to have a dead battery, but unfortunately, *we*
have to be figured into the equation. I managed to kill a fairly
expensive 'certified' SLA battery by leaving the 'mag switch'
controlling the electronic ignition turned on for about a week. No
excuses; my stupidity, but that didn't keep the battery from being dead.
Fortunately the plane was in my hangar at home.
Charlie
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | "Martymason" <captainmarty(at)bellsouth.net> |
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 09:53 AM 9/13/2020, you wrote:
Is there a history for the failure modes
you are hypothesizing?
The Europa with long wings is a motorglider. Hence the need to restart in air.
I think Ron is looking for belt & suspenders.
Marty Mason
--------
Marty Mason
Norcross, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498340#498340
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Check the AC component of the alternator output.
It should be less than 1 volt AC. More than that means a diode is bad.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498341#498341
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Bob Here's a few pics of under 2 lb battery: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27335 and http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=30614 the batteries are getting old and I want to replace them with 10 year newer NiMh technology. You sent a link for a LiPo battery, true they have great energy density but LiPo is also one active Lithium technology, no place in an aeroplane IMHO. My reasons for wanting a independent battery for a fuel pump is in case main battery stops working for whatever reason. Side note, Europa has a main tank and a reserve just like a motorcycle. Run out of fuel and turn to reserve and you know how long it will last. My reason for total loss battery to run a pump is pretty much the same. If you can no longer supply power to a pump, I'll call on my "reserve battery". Potential things that would cause a failure of E-Bus is a battery that fails opened. Yes yes yes I have read read read read that if you capacity test a battery once a year and replace often that the chance of a failure to occur after the motor is started is very slim. I have had at least 2 failures on a car when driving and battery opened and engine quit. Once on a motorcycle where things went dark but engine still ran. Now I'm introducing a LiFe Earth-X battery that is not a lead acid and as far as I'm concerned unquestionably has the potential to offer up no potential for other reasons besides internal connections going very high resistance. I have a SD20S with LR3C on vacuum pad of Rotax 914, I haven't any experience with SD20S and LR3C, but I did have a Suzuki Samari with a ND alternator, it had a solid state internal regulator, anyway the regulator failed, cooked the battery and I got stuck on the side of the road. True LR3C has over-voltage protection but could it fail and cook my battery? I'm using Eric Jones aluminium clad wire (battery in back), I crimped and soldered and paid a lot of attension to smooth bends and support, but there are several connections that could fail and go high resista!
nce and
make my E-bus inoperative. If I take a long and extended flight with additonal
fuel onboard, if charging system failed and I was flying off of E-Bus, then engine
quit because battery went flat either for flying too long or let's say the
fool Rotax TCU decided to draw a lot more power than it normally does and engine
quits. I just connect total loss "reserve battery". I haven't tested it yet
but if I were on total loss battery, I think I could cycle it on and off and
probably double range. Anyway that's my reasons for being able to run a fuel
pump. Just recently I figured since I have this battery already, I could use
it as a in a pinch jump start pack. This would be just a value added. I agree
with you taking off with a battery that's flat is a bad idea. Let's say I'm in
the middle of nowhere and camping out. Some load was left on and battery is a
bit flat. If I could let the total loss battery charge the main battery for a
bit then try a start, if it started I would be gentle and use only the SD20S
to charge on ground for a while at reasonable rate before taking off. If I have
a choice I don't fast charge. Another scenario is after shutting down motor
and soaring for a while, for some reason the engine will not start. If you shut
down motor you always want a landing spot at hand assuming that the motor won't
start. Let's say for whatever reason the battery can't offer up enough electron
flow to do an inflight restart, could be too much a load was left on, bad
cell in battery or plain bad luck, true if had enough altitude could go course
pitch and do an airstart, kinda hard on a cold engine and you need a reasonable
amount of altitude, anyway if I was able to do an inflight jump start, just
an added bonus. The under 2 pounds lets me sleep a little better knowing I
could keep the motor running if all else fails. Unquestionably belt and suspenders,
hope I never need to use it. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498342#498342
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
At 11:03 PM 9/12/2020, you wrote:
>So it is alternator whine. It's present when the strobes are off.
>When they're on, it does warble a bit. There is a bit of strobe
>noise with both alternators off and just the battery on but it's not
>obnoxious at all. There's no noise at when running on the backup alternator.
>
>--Rick
This about has to be a grounding issue.
Refresh my memory. What kind of airplane?
Can you describe your ground system? Conforms
to recommendations in Z15/Chaper 5 in the
'Connection?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Can a dead battery be recharged by a fully charged battery?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498346#498346
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
You've stacked a bucket load of suppositions
and hypotheticals for which I perceive no
foundation. Most of the things you're worrying
about are the same things we've been working
to mitigate for the last 100 years or so.
Worried about crimped AND soldered connections?
Why? No, LR3s have no failure modes that would
cook a battery.
LiFEPO4 has an excellent design history and
track record when packaged with a BMS. AeroVolz,
EarthX, TruBlue and others have done their
homework.
AeroVolts has a BMS fitted battery right
at 2 pounds and proofs out at 4.5AH . . .
it will even crank an engine.
What kind of charge/maintenance protocol
are you proposing for your home brew array?
> Unquestionably belt and suspenders, hope I never need to use it. Ron P.
Ron, of all the electrically involved
accidents I've worked, the vast majority
had root cause in inattention to mechanical
or architectural design details. I.e. poor
FMEA and/or craftsmanship. When component
failure was part of the script, it was almost
never due to manufacturing defect . . . in
fact I cannot now recall a single instance.
Consider sharing your architecture drawing
with the List . . . let's run it under the
FMEA microscope before you pile on Band-Aids
more likely to produce complexity induced
risk. Better to prevent the injury than to
carry tourniquets and field dressings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
At 09:38 PM 9/13/2020, you wrote:
>
>Can a dead battery be recharged by a fully charged battery?
Think about it. What voltage does the alternator put
out to charge the battery? What voltage does the
battery put out while being discharged?
Exception: Those glove box 'chargers' for dead battery
recovery are much higher than 14v. Further, they
obviously don't have the energy to fully charge
their rescue battery . . . just put in enough snort
to crank the engine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Sealed lead Acid battery |
Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a SLA battery like this?
Ill fess up. I always used these sort of batteries - for the last 15 years
to no ill effect but that doesn't not mean that this is a recommended
practice. They normally last about 5 years.
thanks
will
PS I am not electrically dependant and have two back up batteries for the
avionics
[image: image.png]
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:03 AM William Daniell
wrote:
> Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a SLA battery like this?
> Ill fess up. I always used these sort of batteries - for the last 15
> years to no ill effect but that doesn't not mean that this is a recommended
> practice. They normally last about 5 years.
> thanks
> will
> PS I am not electrically dependant and have two back up batteries for the
> avionics
>
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
>
Hi William,
I'll see your 15 & raise you at least 5. If we shouldn't be using them,
please don't tell. :-)
I've been using similar products, with much less well known brand names,
with no issues outside what could happen to any product. (ex: shipping
damage)
I used the 18 AH size for years on O320 engines, until I discovered 20 AH &
22 AH versions that are almost the same size. If you have a bigger engine,
and your battery mount isn't a 'glove fit' arrangement, you can go to the
larger batteries for a bit more money but still about 1/2 what an Odyssey
costs. And there have been more and more reports over the last couple of
years about very short lived Odysseys; unlike the 'no name' stuff I've been
using.
Also related to the 'big engine' starting current issue: Some
(unfortunately, not all) of these batteries will spec their source (or
internal) impedance. The one you image, like the ones I've used in the
past, has relatively low mass terminals on top. While similar batteries
have plenty of 'grunt' to start all but the really big, high compression
engines, they are typically designed for use in mobility carts, UPSs, etc
that have lower max current than a starter motor. Their internal impedance
is typically a bit higher than a purpose-built SLA starting battery with
the same AH rating on the label. Most obvious clue, absent detailed specs,
will be the somewhat heavier terminals on the starting battery.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
William
I have to disagree with your PS.
You are indeed electrically dependant, otherwise your heart wouldn=99t
work, and you will have to use a pacemaker....
Sorry, couldn=99t resist
Regards
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
> No dia 14/09/2020, =C3-s 14:28, Charlie England e
screveu:
>
> =EF=BB
>
>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:03 AM William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.
com> wrote:
>> Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a SLA battery like this?
>> Ill fess up. I always used these sort of batteries - for the last 15 yea
rs to no ill effect but that doesn't not mean that this is a recommended pra
ctice. They normally last about 5 years.
>> thanks
>> will
>> PS I am not electrically dependant and have two back up batteries for the
avionics
>>
>> William Daniell
>> LONGPORT
>> +1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Strobe whine |
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
On 9/13/2020 12:10 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 11:03 PM 9/12/2020, you wrote:
>
>> So it is alternator whine. It's present when the strobes are off.
>> When they're on, it does warble a bit. There is a bit of strobe noise
>> with both alternators off and just the battery on but it's not
>> obnoxious at all. There's no noise at when running on the backup
>> alternator.
>>
>> --Rick
>
> This about has to be a grounding issue.
> Refresh my memory. What kind of airplane?
> Can you describe your ground system? Conforms
> to recommendations in Z15/Chaper 5 in the
> 'Connection?
It's a GlaStar. Battery is in the back. The negative cable runs to a
terminal strip mounted on the sidewall on the copilot side. Most
non-avionics things such as lights, boost pumps, etc, are grounded
there. When I re-did the panel I put an avionics ground block on the
back of the panel. It's connected via redundant wires to the ground
terminal strip.
The other end of the terminal strip connects to another thick wire the
firewall which connects to the engine. I believe the starter, engine and
alternator are gounded there but I have to verify. That alternator is
one of the few things I did not touch in the panel re-do. I'll be
opening things up for the condition inspection in a couple weeks and
I'll take a very close look at how that alternator is wired.
--Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How do you figure C-Rating of a battery? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Bob Thank you for your review. I will post schematic when it's completed. A
few points: I'm not too worried about LiFe batteries getting thermal runaway,
but I am about LiPo batteries getting to a thermal runaway. You posted a link
to: https://tinyurl.com/y4oulfy9 As far as LiFe batteries go, I think mfg has
done a reasonable amount of homework but fact is there is potential for problems
that Lead Acid does not have and they can still fail opened. Good enough for
me to use. I'm not worried about soldered and crimped connection to aluminium
wires, but the terminal connections can get a high resistance. Keeping connections
clean and tight mitigate majority of problems, but not all. As far as keeping
NiMh pack charged, using one of my AstroFlight delta peak chargers (110D
or 112D), once or twice a year will give them a C/10 for ~ 15 hours to balance,
then delta peak charge the rest of the times. Unless battery is very flat,
peaking at 1C takes less time than a pre-flight. 1x a year will capacity test
down to 1V per cell and fuel pump equivalent load. BTW have you ever used an
AstroFlight Whatt Meter (Whatt is correctly spelled)? Pretty slick meter that
shows volts, amps and watt hours. Pricey though, here's an alternative that works
pretty good: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-180a-watt-meter-and-power-analyzer.html?queryID=7b349d17e0c87dff11877b2ea51342de&objectID=42854&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498356#498356
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
nice one! but I do have an independent power source
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 10:39 AM Carlos Trigo wrote
:
> William
>
> I have to disagree with your PS.
> You are indeed electrically dependant, otherwise your heart wouldn
=99t work,
> and you will have to use a pacemaker....
>
> Sorry, couldn=99t resist
> Regards
> Carlos
>
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
> No dia 14/09/2020, =C3-s 14:28, Charlie England
> escreveu:
>
> =EF=BB
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:03 AM William Daniell <
> wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a SLA battery like this?
>> Ill fess up. I always used these sort of batteries - for the last 15
>> years to no ill effect but that doesn't not mean that this is a recommen
ded
>> practice. They normally last about 5 years.
>> thanks
>> will
>> PS I am not electrically dependant and have two back up batteries for th
e
>> avionics
>>
>> William Daniell
>> LONGPORT
>> +1 786 878 0246
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
Charlie thanks,
I too have been using cheap chinese SLA batteries which is the only small
ish battery I could obtain in Colombia. It is also the normally used rotax
battery there except where the battery is in the engine compartment because
the belief is that SLA dont handle heat well. Starts my 912 turbo fine.
But the stupidest question is the one you don't ask. And since I'm now in
the US I have a few more alternatives...
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 9:25 AM Charlie England
wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:03 AM William Daniell <
> wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a SLA battery like this?
>> Ill fess up. I always used these sort of batteries - for the last 15
>> years to no ill effect but that doesn't not mean that this is a recommended
>> practice. They normally last about 5 years.
>> thanks
>> will
>> PS I am not electrically dependant and have two back up batteries for the
>> avionics
>>
>> William Daniell
>> LONGPORT
>> +1 786 878 0246
>>
> Hi William,
>
> I'll see your 15 & raise you at least 5. If we shouldn't be using them,
> please don't tell. :-)
>
> I've been using similar products, with much less well known brand names,
> with no issues outside what could happen to any product. (ex: shipping
> damage)
> I used the 18 AH size for years on O320 engines, until I discovered 20 AH
> & 22 AH versions that are almost the same size. If you have a bigger
> engine, and your battery mount isn't a 'glove fit' arrangement, you can go
> to the larger batteries for a bit more money but still about 1/2 what an
> Odyssey costs. And there have been more and more reports over the last
> couple of years about very short lived Odysseys; unlike the 'no name' stuff
> I've been using.
>
> Also related to the 'big engine' starting current issue: Some
> (unfortunately, not all) of these batteries will spec their source (or
> internal) impedance. The one you image, like the ones I've used in the
> past, has relatively low mass terminals on top. While similar batteries
> have plenty of 'grunt' to start all but the really big, high compression
> engines, they are typically designed for use in mobility carts, UPSs, etc
> that have lower max current than a starter motor. Their internal impedance
> is typically a bit higher than a purpose-built SLA starting battery with
> the same AH rating on the label. Most obvious clue, absent detailed specs,
> will be the somewhat heavier terminals on the starting battery.
>
> Charlie
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Oh... Please don't tell the batteries about that. They lived on the hot
side of the firewall of my RV4 for about 15 years.
On 9/14/2020 1:51 PM, William Daniell wrote:
> Charlie thanks,
> I too have been using cheap chinese SLA batteries which is the only
> small ish battery I could obtain in Colombia. It is also the normally
> used rotax battery there exceptwhere the battery is in the engine
> compartment because the belief is that SLA dont handle heat well.
> Starts my 912 turbo fine. But the stupidestquestion is the one you
> don't ask. And since I'm now in the US I have a few more alternatives...
> Will
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 9:25 AM Charlie England > wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:03 AM William Daniell
> >
> wrote:
>
> Is there any reason why I shouldn'tuse a SLA battery like this?
> Ill fess up. I always used these sort of batteries - for the
> last 15 years to no ill effect but that doesn't not mean that
> this is a recommended practice. They normally last about 5 years.
> thanks
> will
> PS I am not electricallydependant and have two back up
> batteries for the avionics
>
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
>
> Hi William,
>
> I'll see your 15 & raise you at least 5. If we shouldn't be using
> them, please don't tell. :-)
>
> I've been using similar products, with much less well known brand
> names, with no issues outside what could happen to any product.
> (ex: shipping damage)
> I used the 18 AH size for years onO320 engines, until I
> discovered 20 AH & 22 AH versions that are almost the same size.
> If you have a bigger engine, and your battery mount isn't a 'glove
> fit' arrangement, you can go to the larger batteries for a bit
> more money but still about 1/2 what an Odyssey costs. And there
> have been more and more reports over the last couple of years
> about very short lived Odysseys; unlike the 'no name' stuff I've
> been using.
>
> Also related to the 'big engine' starting current issue: Some
> (unfortunately, not all) of these batteries will spec their source
> (or internal) impedance. The one you image, like the ones I've
> used in the past, has relatively low mass terminals on top. While
> similar batteries have plenty of 'grunt' to start all but the
> really big, high compression engines, they are typically designed
> for use in mobility carts, UPSs, etc that have lower max current
> than a starter motor. Their internal impedance is typically a bit
> higher than a purpose-built SLA starting battery with the same AH
> rating on the label. Most obvious clue, absent detailed specs,
> will be the somewhat heavier terminals on the starting battery.
>
> Charlie
>
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
Dang...i was misinformed.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 15:27 Charlie England wrote:
> Oh... Please don't tell the batteries about that. They lived on the hot
> side of the firewall of my RV4 for about 15 years.
>
> On 9/14/2020 1:51 PM, William Daniell wrote:
>
> Charlie thanks,
> I too have been using cheap chinese SLA batteries which is the only small
> ish battery I could obtain in Colombia. It is also the normally used rotax
> battery there except where the battery is in the engine compartment because
> the belief is that SLA dont handle heat well. Starts my 912 turbo fine.
> But the stupidest question is the one you don't ask. And since I'm now in
> the US I have a few more alternatives...
> Will
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 9:25 AM Charlie England
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:03 AM William Daniell <
>> wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a SLA battery like this?
>>> Ill fess up. I always used these sort of batteries - for the last 15
>>> years to no ill effect but that doesn't not mean that this is a recommended
>>> practice. They normally last about 5 years.
>>> thanks
>>> will
>>> PS I am not electrically dependant and have two back up batteries for
>>> the avionics
>>>
>>> William Daniell
>>> LONGPORT
>>> +1 786 878 0246
>>>
>> Hi William,
>>
>> I'll see your 15 & raise you at least 5. If we shouldn't be using them,
>> please don't tell. :-)
>>
>> I've been using similar products, with much less well known brand names,
>> with no issues outside what could happen to any product. (ex: shipping
>> damage)
>> I used the 18 AH size for years on O320 engines, until I discovered 20 AH
>> & 22 AH versions that are almost the same size. If you have a bigger
>> engine, and your battery mount isn't a 'glove fit' arrangement, you can go
>> to the larger batteries for a bit more money but still about 1/2 what an
>> Odyssey costs. And there have been more and more reports over the last
>> couple of years about very short lived Odysseys; unlike the 'no name' stuff
>> I've been using.
>>
>> Also related to the 'big engine' starting current issue: Some
>> (unfortunately, not all) of these batteries will spec their source (or
>> internal) impedance. The one you image, like the ones I've used in the
>> past, has relatively low mass terminals on top. While similar batteries
>> have plenty of 'grunt' to start all but the really big, high compression
>> engines, they are typically designed for use in mobility carts, UPSs, etc
>> that have lower max current than a starter motor. Their internal impedance
>> is typically a bit higher than a purpose-built SLA starting battery with
>> the same AH rating on the label. Most obvious clue, absent detailed specs,
>> will be the somewhat heavier terminals on the starting battery.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>
>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_2636863385803712607_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
To close this one out ...
The source of the noise was the magneto itself. Disconnect the p-lead to
the engine monitor, and all of the data was stable. However, the magneto
was still radiating RF that was causing other problems. It would stop data
recording to the USB stick on my EFIS. It created some radio noise. It
possibly took my GPS antenna offline (or it might have just been the
location, which I also changed).
So, why was the brand new magneto creating noise ... because when I bought
the plane it was set up to use auto spark plugs, specifically Autolite 386.
Other than some radio noise, the previous owner didn't have any issues
because he had few electronics in the plane, mostly steam gauges. My theory
is that the magneto reacts poorly to high resistance downstream of it. You
are supposed to throw out an aircraft plug when it hits 5000 ohms, but most
Autolite 386 plugs are around 10000 ohms out of the box. The
manufacturer provides a large range from 3k to 12k ohms. I tested six new
ones and measured between 7k and 12k ohms. There is probably an auto plug
solution that would work fine on my magento, but I am done experimenting
for now. I flew with the aircraft plugs and it fixed all my problems at
once.
Ron
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:19 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:28 PM 8/26/2020, you wrote:
>
> Just did a test flight and shot some video of the EIS to compare to the
> EFIS. I haven=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t even looked at it yet because I di
d something else for
> the first time. I shut off the magneto and everything got perfectly quiet
> on the EFIS, along with the noise that seems to be getting louder in my
> headset on each flight!
>
>
> Aha! One more flight test:
>
> Leave the mag wire totally unhooked at
> the engine end. Of course this leaves
> you an always-hot mag but the p-lead
> effects are now out of the diagnostic
> loop.
>
> If the effect goes away, you're looking
> at p-lead; if it stays you're looking
> at plug wires.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mike Pienaar <mikepienaar09(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Regulator failure |
A friend has an aircraft with a wind/propellor driven generator controlled
by a "Ford type" regulator. The aircraft made its first flight in 6 years
recently and the regulator was completely fried. Everything inside was heat
damaged and the insulation on the wires entering the regulator melted off.
Where do we start looking?
Thanks
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Regulator failure |
Mike,
1. Do you know that the wiring was good before the flight?2. Part numbers / nameplate
data for generator & regulator?3. How many amps can this generator generate?4.
It's a generator and not an alternator?5. Any pictures?
-Jeff
wrote:
A friend has an aircraft with a wind/propellor driven generator controlled by
a "Ford type" regulator. The aircraft made its first flight in 6 years recently
and the regulator was completely fried. Everything inside was heat damaged and
the insulation on the wires entering the regulator melted off.
Where do we start looking?
Thanks
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Yeah...That would have been a useful data point to supply for
troubleshooting. ;-)
Some have gotten away with using specific plug wires & automotive plugs
with mags, but the whole reason mags have shielded wire and shielded
plugs is to suppress the intense RF ignition noise from the mag.
Here's one way to do it successfully:
http://www.g3ignition.com/magmod.html
Note that the 386s are being used by some of us with electronic
ignition, but internet lore says they have a higher heat range than
typical a/c plugs, or the metric plugs that require an adapter.
Charlie
On 9/14/2020 6:54 PM, Ron Springer wrote:
> To close this one out ...
>
> The source of the noise was the magneto itself. Disconnect the p-lead
> to the engine monitor, and all of the data was stable. However, the
> magneto was still radiating RF that was causing other problems. It
> would stop data recording to the USB stick on my EFIS. It created some
> radio noise. It possibly took my GPS antenna offline (or it might have
> just been the location, which I also changed).
>
> So, why was the brand new magneto creating noise ... because when I
> bought the plane it was set up to use auto spark plugs, specifically
> Autolite 386. Other than some radio noise, the previous owner didn't
> have any issues because he had few electronics in the plane, mostly
> steam gauges. My theory is that the magneto reacts poorly to high
> resistance downstream of it. You are supposed to throw out an aircraft
> plug when it hits 5000 ohms, but most Autolite 386 plugs are around
> 10000 ohms out of the box. The manufacturerprovides a large range
> from 3k to 12k ohms. I tested six new ones and measured between 7k and
> 12k ohms. There is probably an auto plug solution that would work fine
> on my magento, but I am done experimenting for now. I flew with the
> aircraft plugs and it fixed all my problems at once.
>
> Ron
>
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:19 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
> At 06:28 PM 8/26/2020, you wrote:
>> Just did a test flight and shot some video of the EIS to compare
>> to the EFIS. I havent even looked at it yet because I did
>> something else for the first time. I shut off the magneto and
>> everything got perfectly quiet on the EFIS, along with the noise
>> that seems to be getting louder in my headset on each flight!
>
>
> Aha! One more flight test:
>
> Leave the mag wire totally unhooked at
> the engine end. Of course this leaves
> you an always-hot mag but the p-lead
> effects are now out of the diagnostic
> loop.
>
> If the effect goes away, you're looking
> at p-lead; if it stays you're looking
> at plug wires.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
Remember, I only discovered that this had something to do with the ignition s
ystem in the very last post. This whole thread has been focused on the elect
rical system, not the ignition, because the problem could only be produced i
n flight shortly after the charging system kicked in at takeoff. It did not o
ccur on the ground at any power setting from idle to full throttle.
I didn=99t omit any information about the spark plugs because we haven
=99t been talking about the ignition system in this thread. I dealt wi
th that on my own.
Ignition noise is usually suppressed by adding resistance to the plug, wires
, or both to reduce current at the expense of performance. In this case, it a
ppears that there may be too much resistance causing the mag to behave badly
. The Autolite plugs on my electronic ignition work just fine. It was just a
problem with the mag.
I had two sets of auto harnesses to choose from. One was a modified aircraft
harness with auto plug terminals. That is low resistance wire with a metal s
hield. I also had a harness utilizing 8.8 mm Accel wires with a resistance o
f about 700 ohms, advertised to be RFI suppression wires. Neither set of wir
es made a difference. It was all due to the plugs. That website you mentione
d advertises low resistance MSD wires on their auto plug harness but they do
n=99t mention the plugs that they recommend for a magneto.
Ron
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Yeah...That would have been a useful data point to supply for troubleshoot
ing. ;-)
>
> Some have gotten away with using specific plug wires & automotive plugs wi
th mags, but the whole reason mags have shielded wire and shielded plugs is t
o suppress the intense RF ignition noise from the mag.
>
> Here's one way to do it successfully:
> http://www.g3ignition.com/magmod.html
> Note that the 386s are being used by some of us with electronic ignition, b
ut internet lore says they have a higher heat range than typical a/c plugs, o
r the metric plugs that require an adapter.
>
> Charlie
>
>> On 9/14/2020 6:54 PM, Ron Springer wrote:
>> To close this one out ...
>>
>> The source of the noise was the magneto itself. Disconnect the p-lead to t
he engine monitor, and all of the data was stable. However, the magneto was s
till radiating RF that was causing other problems. It would stop data record
ing to the USB stick on my EFIS. It created some radio noise. It possibly to
ok my GPS antenna offline (or it might have just been the location, which I a
lso changed).
>>
>> So, why was the brand new magneto creating noise ... because when I bough
t the plane it was set up to use auto spark plugs, specifically Autolite 386
. Other than some radio noise, the previous owner didn't have any issues bec
ause he had few electronics in the plane, mostly steam gauges. My theory is t
hat the magneto reacts poorly to high resistance downstream of it. You are s
upposed to throw out an aircraft plug when it hits 5000 ohms, but most Autol
ite 386 plugs are around 10000 ohms out of the box. The manufacturer provide
s a large range from 3k to 12k ohms. I tested six new ones and measured betw
een 7k and 12k ohms. There is probably an auto plug solution that would work
fine on my magento, but I am done experimenting for now. I flew with the ai
rcraft plugs and it fixed all my problems at once.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:19 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aer
oelectric.com> wrote:
>>> At 06:28 PM 8/26/2020, you wrote:
>>>> Just did a test flight and shot some video of the EIS to compare to the
EFIS. I haven=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t even looked at it yet because I did s
omething else for the first time. I shut off the magneto and everything got p
erfectly quiet on the EFIS, along with the noise that seems to be getting lo
uder in my headset on each flight!
>>>
>>>
>>> Aha! One more flight test:
>>>
>>> Leave the mag wire totally unhooked at
>>> the engine end. Of course this leaves
>>> you an always-hot mag but the p-lead
>>> effects are now out of the diagnostic
>>> loop.
>>>
>>> If the effect goes away, you're looking
>>> at p-lead; if it stays you're looking
>>> at plug wires.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mike Pienaar <mikepienaar09(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Regulator failure |
1. Ran when parked
2. Generator is believed to be a converted Evenrude generator
3 Not sure about the amps
4 Is a generator
5 Pictures will follow
Thanks
Mike
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 6:43 PM Jeff Luckey wrote:
> Mike,
>
> 1. Do you know that the wiring was good before the flight?
> 2. Part numbers / nameplate data for generator & regulator?
> 3. How many amps can this generator generate?
> 4. It's a generator and not an alternator?
> 5. Any pictures?
>
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> mikepienaar09(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> A friend has an aircraft with a wind/propellor driven generator controlled
> by a "Ford type" regulator. The aircraft made its first flight in 6 years
> recently and the regulator was completely fried. Everything inside was heat
> damaged and the insulation on the wires entering the regulator melted off.
>
> Where do we start looking?
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
At 01:51 PM 9/14/2020, you wrote:
>Charlie thanks,
>I too have been using cheap chinese SLA
>batteries which is the only small ish battery I
>could obtain in Colombia.=C2 It is also the
>normally used rotax battery there except=C2 where
>the battery is in the engine compartment because
>the belief is that SLA dont handle heat
>well.=C2 =C2 Starts my 912 turbo fine.=C2 But the
>stupidest=C2 question is the one you don't
>ask.=C2 And since I'm now in the US I have a few more alternatives...
Rule #1, it's dumb to argue with success.
Rule #2, when initiating a new experiment, you
need data based on observation.
When selecting a battery for an electrically dependent
airplane, one needs a battery-only, endurance
goal. Then be ready/willing to test the battery
against that requirement. Swap it out for a new one when it
fails the endurance test even if it still starts the engine,
We've had many discussions here on the List over
the years about suitability to task for a host
of batteries. Some folks swear by the premium
name brands, others have cited years of satisfactory
service from generic products.
But WITHOUT NUMBERS demonstrating compliance with
numerically defined design goals, those
conversations were little more than musings
over beer and pretzels.
For the most part, any and all SVLA products
are fair game for use in your airplane. The
deciding factor is $ownership$. How much
$testing$ and $procurement$ expenses are
incurred to keep your design goals covered?
Years ago, some of my readers bought the cheapest,
18AH SLVA they could find (about $40 at the time) and
simply replaced it every year. If they flew 50
hours a year, then operating expense was under a
$1/hr and testing expense was zero.
A really expensive battery may prove to the
the lowest cost per flight hour when
demonstrated performance negates a lot of
maintenance testing.
If you have no battery-only endurance requirements,
then you can run any battery like they do in most
GA light aircraft . . . run 'em until they don't
crank the engine any more. But keep in mind that
most of those dark-n-stormy-night stories involving
soggy batteries were penned by pilots who didn't
recognize that they had battery-only endurance
goals until it was too late to do anything about it.
So, pick a battery. Set goals. Monitor performance
over time and after you've gone through two or
three batteries, you'll KNOW if it was a good
value. We'd all appreciate it if you would share
your discoveries here on the List.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Regulator failure |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
How many wires are coming out of the generator, 2 or 3 or ?
Do you know if the output is AC or DC? If not, can you measure it?
I suggest that the generator be disconnected from the aircraft electrical
system. Then connect the generator output to a high wattage load such
as an automotive headlight and go for a test flight. Measure the AC and
DC voltage and current through the load. If you suspect the unregulated
generator voltage and current might be too high for a single headlight,
connect two headlights in series.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498372#498372
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
Situation: I have only one device (EFIS) that's susceptible to brownout,
and don't need a relay for my endurance bus.
Is there any reason to *not* leave the brownout booster in the circuit
continuously?
Ex: boost/buck inverter between main bus & EFIS input.
In case of inverter death, either a diode (simpler), or a simple switch,
wired 'around' the inverter. Only unprotected failure mode I can see is the
inverter going overvoltage; that could be handled with an OV module if the
risk is high enough.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Charlie
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over 15volts |
I am running a Z-14 electrical system with dual batts/alts/buses. I
recently changed out an old Odyssey 680 for a new one after 4+ years of
service because it's fully charged, no load voltage fell to 12.5
volts. I swapped the battery positions as I put in the new one per my
normal procedure.
On the 2nd leg of the first flight after the swap I noticed that the bus
with the new battery was running slightly over 15 volts. Normally it
runs between 14.5 and 14.7. After some switching of avionics and other
components, I took it off line.
Is there any obvious reason a new battery would cause a bus to suddenly
run at a higher voltage when at cruise and presumably the power is being
supplied by an alternator and the voltage controlled by an B&C
regulator? 15 volts is too high a charging voltage for an Odyssey per
their user doc.
My inclination is to adjust the regulator but I don't recall having to
do this with past battery changes or swaps (the regulator is really hard
to access so there's that too).
Thoughts and opinions welcome.
Bill "everytime I get comfortable with a system something new pops up"
Watson
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over |
15volts
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/15/2020 9:22 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
>
> I am running a Z-14 electrical system with dual batts/alts/buses. I
> recently changed out an old Odyssey 680 for a new one after 4+ years
> of service because it's fully charged, no load voltage fell to 12.5
> volts. I swapped the battery positions as I put in the new one per my
> normal procedure.
>
> On the 2nd leg of the first flight after the swap I noticed that the
> bus with the new battery was running slightly over 15 volts. Normally
> it runs between 14.5 and 14.7. After some switching of avionics and
> other components, I took it off line.
>
> Is there any obvious reason a new battery would cause a bus to
> suddenly run at a higher voltage when at cruise and presumably the
> power is being supplied by an alternator and the voltage controlled by
> an B&C regulator? 15 volts is too high a charging voltage for an
> Odyssey per their user doc.
>
> My inclination is to adjust the regulator but I don't recall having to
> do this with past battery changes or swaps (the regulator is really
> hard to access so there's that too).
>
> Thoughts and opinions welcome.
>
> Bill "everytime I get comfortable with a system something new pops up"
> Watson
>
>
Seems unlikely that the battery change would cause it, but easy enough
to verify, if you still have the old battery. Just return everything to
pre-replacement configuration & re-check.
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
Understand. Apologies if that was offensive; it was intended to be light
hearted. I would have bet that it didn't show up at low throttle because
the ignition isn't working hard until MAP goes up at higher power settings,
but that doesn't square with your symptoms.
One thing that plug wire mfgers say in their docs is that it's important to
use compatible wire & plugs. IIRC, solid conductors with resistor plugs or
resistor wire with non-resistor plugs. That site I linked will probably
tell you which plugs to use when you pay them their $30. :-)
Just out of curiosity, did you try a new set of 386s? Any chance the
original setup had a different plug; perhaps a 14mm plug with thread
adapter? My plane had 14mm plugs on the Lightspeed ignition when I bought
it, but I changed to 386s out of paranoia when I found one of the adapters
backed out about half way about a month after purchasing the plane.
Charlie
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:06 PM Ron Springer wrote:
> Remember, I only discovered that this had something to do with the
> ignition system in the very last post. This whole thread has been focused
> on the electrical system, not the ignition, because the problem could onl
y
> be produced in flight shortly after the charging system kicked in at
> takeoff. It did not occur on the ground at any power setting from idle to
> full throttle.
>
> I didn=99t omit any information about the spark plugs because we ha
ven=99t
> been talking about the ignition system in this thread. I dealt with that
on
> my own.
>
> Ignition noise is usually suppressed by adding resistance to the plug,
> wires, or both to reduce current at the expense of performance. In this
> case, it appears that there may be too much resistance causing the mag to
> behave badly. The Autolite plugs on my electronic ignition work just fine
.
> It was just a problem with the mag.
>
> I had two sets of auto harnesses to choose from. One was a modified
> aircraft harness with auto plug terminals. That is low resistance wire wi
th
> a metal shield. I also had a harness utilizing 8.8 mm Accel wires with a
> resistance of about 700 ohms, advertised to be RFI suppression wires.
> Neither set of wires made a difference. It was all due to the plugs. That
> website you mentioned advertises low resistance MSD wires on their auto
> plug harness but they don=99t mention the plugs that they recommend
for a
> magneto.
>
> Ron
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Charlie England wrote
:
>
> =EF=BB
> Yeah...That would have been a useful data point to supply for
> troubleshooting. ;-)
>
> Some have gotten away with using specific plug wires & automotive plugs
> with mags, but the whole reason mags have shielded wire and shielded plug
s
> is to suppress the intense RF ignition noise from the mag.
>
> Here's one way to do it successfully:
> http://www.g3ignition.com/magmod.html
> Note that the 386s are being used by some of us with electronic ignition,
> but internet lore says they have a higher heat range than typical a/c
> plugs, or the metric plugs that require an adapter.
>
> Charlie
>
> On 9/14/2020 6:54 PM, Ron Springer wrote:
>
> To close this one out ...
>
> The source of the noise was the magneto itself. Disconnect the p-lead to
> the engine monitor, and all of the data was stable. However, the magneto
> was still radiating RF that was causing other problems. It would stop dat
a
> recording to the USB stick on my EFIS. It created some radio noise. It
> possibly took my GPS antenna offline (or it might have just been the
> location, which I also changed).
>
> So, why was the brand new magneto creating noise ... because when I bough
t
> the plane it was set up to use auto spark plugs, specifically Autolite 38
6.
> Other than some radio noise, the previous owner didn't have any issues
> because he had few electronics in the plane, mostly steam gauges. My theo
ry
> is that the magneto reacts poorly to high resistance downstream of it. Yo
u
> are supposed to throw out an aircraft plug when it hits 5000 ohms, but mo
st
> Autolite 386 plugs are around 10000 ohms out of the box. The
> manufacturer provides a large range from 3k to 12k ohms. I tested six new
> ones and measured between 7k and 12k ohms. There is probably an auto plug
> solution that would work fine on my magento, but I am done experimenting
> for now. I flew with the aircraft plugs and it fixed all my problems at
> once.
>
> Ron
>
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:19 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 06:28 PM 8/26/2020, you wrote:
>>
>> Just did a test flight and shot some video of the EIS to compare to the
>> EFIS. I haven=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t even looked at it yet because I d
id something else for
>> the first time. I shut off the magneto and everything got perfectly quie
t
>> on the EFIS, along with the noise that seems to be getting louder in my
>> headset on each flight!
>>
>>
>>
>> Aha! One more flight test:
>>
>> Leave the mag wire totally unhooked at
>> the engine end. Of course this leaves
>> you an always-hot mag but the p-lead
>> effects are now out of the diagnostic
>> loop.
>>
>> If the effect goes away, you're looking
>> at p-lead; if it stays you're looking
>> at plug wires.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
> Virus-free
.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_8962622669845041058_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over |
15volts
Bill,
Thinking out loud here:
The only way to get voltage that high is from the alternator (kinda obvious
) and the thing that controls the alternator is the regulator (again, obvio
us) therefore we might concentrate on the regulator.=C2- (I know, brillia
nt deductive reasoning ;)
I'm not familiar with the B&C regulator but I think it has a voltage-sense
terminal.=C2- Any chance something weird happened with the sense lead?=C2
- If the regulator is not getting accurate voltage signal it might over-c
ontrol the field??
Anecdote:A few years ago a friend has a similar but not identical problem.
=C2- The master had been left on and drained the battery.=C2- The batte
ry was removed and charged for an hour or two outside the airplane.=C2- H
e re-installed the battery and flew the plane and the voltage went crazy an
d fried his avionics stack ($$ouch!$$).=C2- There was no over-voltage pro
tection module.
We have never come up with a scenario that explains the failure.=C2- (Thi
s is probably due to incomplete information regarding the details of the ev
ent.=C2- I don't have first-hand knowledge of the details, so when we dis
cuss it over beers, the details get a little "fuzzy".)
I'm interested in some/any hypothesis that might explain that behavior.=C2
- It might be relevant to the situation at hand.
-JL=C2-
er(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:
m>
I am running a Z-14 electrical system with dual batts/alts/buses.=C2- I
recently changed out an old Odyssey 680 for a new one after 4+ years of
service because=C2- it's fully charged, no load voltage fell to 12.5
volts.=C2- I swapped the battery positions as I put in the new one per my
normal procedure.
On the 2nd leg of the first flight after the swap I noticed that the bus
with the new battery was running slightly over 15 volts. Normally it=C2-
runs between 14.5 and 14.7.=C2- After some switching of avionics and othe
r
components, I took it off line.
Is there any obvious reason a new battery would cause a bus to suddenly
run at a higher voltage when at cruise and presumably the power is being
supplied by an alternator and the voltage controlled by an B&C
regulator?=C2- 15 volts is too high a charging voltage for an Odyssey per
their user doc.
My inclination is to adjust the regulator but I don't recall having to
do this with past battery changes or swaps (the regulator is really hard
to access so there's that too).
Thoughts and opinions welcome.
Bill "everytime I get comfortable with a system something new pops up"
Watson
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S -
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-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
Well, when I first tore out all the wiring and installed an EFIS in my
plane, I refreshed all my Autolite 386 plugs with new ones. I did not have
any problem with noise in the data like I had recently, but on my third
flight my EFIS did not record data to the USB stick. I suspected a problem
with the EFIS when that happened. I certainly wasn't thinking it was caused
by the spark plugs at the time. In some of the following flights it would
periodically not record portions of the flight. However, as soon as I
installed a brand new mag, I got extreme noise on the engine data plus
failure to record data on every single flight starting shortly after
takeoff.
So, I have not tried a set of new plugs recently. Maybe it was not due to
the high resistance but one of the plugs was defective instead? Blaming the
problem on high resistance is only a theory at this point. However, I have
done nine test flights in the pattern sorting this out over the last couple
months, and now it is time to go places instead of experimenting any
further. Summer is almost over. I will gladly pay for expensive aircraft
plugs to put these problems behind me.
Ron
On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 1:11 PM Charlie England
wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, did you try a new set of 386s? Any chance the
> original setup had a different plug; perhaps a 14mm plug with thread
> adapter? My plane had 14mm plugs on the Lightspeed ignition when I bought
> it, but I changed to 386s out of paranoia when I found one of the adapters
> backed out about half way about a month after purchasing the plane.
>
> Charlie
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Charlie, how about connecting a diode in parallel with the DC-DC converter
like you mentioned, but instead of running the DC-DC converter continuously,
set its output at just below 12 volts. Then the EFIS will normally be powered
via the parallel diode and not by the DC-DC converter.
Another option is to use a backup battery.
Dual diodes in one package like 863-MBRF20L45CTG can power the
EFIS from the source with the highest voltage.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498380#498380
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over |
15volts
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Make sure the voltage regulator has a good ground connection and that
the voltage sense terminal has the exact same voltage as the battery.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498381#498381
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/15/2020 1:37 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Charlie, how about connecting a diode in parallel with the DC-DC converter
> like you mentioned, but instead of running the DC-DC converter continuously,
> set its output at just below 12 volts. Then the EFIS will normally be powered
> via the parallel diode and not by the DC-DC converter.
> Another option is to use a backup battery.
> Dual diodes in one package like 863-MBRF20L45CTG can power the
> EFIS from the source with the highest voltage.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
Good thought on the voltage setting; that's basically what we'd have
with the AEC circuit, too.
I've long thought about using the boost/buck converter to both isolate
and keep fully charged a backup battery, but I do like the simplicity of
Bob's 'one battery to rule them all' philosophy. Also, having a backup
battery outside the EFIS (an old GRT HX) would mean that it wouldn't
turn off with the master, meaning that I'd soon forget to power it off,
meaning.... ;-)
Charlie
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
How about using the DC-DC converter (no backup battery), but only energize
it during engine start? A dual diode will allow either the DC-DC
converter or the power bus to supply current to the EFIS. Wired that way,
there is no concern about the DC-DC converter malfunctioning during flight.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498385#498385
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/15/2020 6:54 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> How about using the DC-DC converter (no backup battery), but only energize
> it during engine start? A dual diode will allow either the DC-DC
> converter or the power bus to supply current to the EFIS. Wired that way,
> there is no concern about the DC-DC converter malfunctioning during flight.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
That's basically what is shown in Z101. I suppose it's worth giving a
random choice a try configured to the start button, and if it doesn't
work I could move it to the bus.
Thanks,
Charlie
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
Roger that.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 07:50 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:51 PM 9/14/2020, you wrote:
>
> Charlie thanks,
> I too have been using cheap chinese SLA batteries which is the only small
> ish battery I could obtain in Colombia.=C3=82 It is also the normally us
ed
> rotax battery there except=C3=82 where the battery is in the engine compa
rtment
> because the belief is that SLA dont handle heat well.=C3=82 =C3=82 Start
s my 912
> turbo fine.=C3=82 But the stupidest=C3=82 question is the one you don't
ask.=C3=82 And
> since I'm now in the US I have a few more alternatives...
>
>
> Rule #1, it's dumb to argue with success.
>
> Rule #2, when initiating a new experiment, you
> need data based on observation.
>
> When selecting a battery for an electrically dependent
> airplane, one needs a battery-only, endurance
> goal. Then be ready/willing to test the battery
> against that requirement. Swap it out for a new one when it
> fails the endurance test even if it still starts the engine,
>
> We've had many discussions here on the List over
> the years about suitability to task for a host
> of batteries. Some folks swear by the premium
> name brands, others have cited years of satisfactory
> service from generic products.
>
> But WITHOUT NUMBERS demonstrating compliance with
> numerically defined design goals, those
> conversations were little more than musings
> over beer and pretzels.
>
> For the most part, any and all SVLA products
> are fair game for use in your airplane. The
> deciding factor is $ownership$. How much
> $testing$ and $procurement$ expenses are
> incurred to keep your design goals covered?
>
> Years ago, some of my readers bought the cheapest,
> 18AH SLVA they could find (about $40 at the time) and
> simply replaced it every year. If they flew 50
> hours a year, then operating expense was under a
> $1/hr and testing expense was zero.
>
> A really expensive battery may prove to the
> the lowest cost per flight hour when
> demonstrated performance negates a lot of
> maintenance testing.
>
> If you have no battery-only endurance requirements,
> then you can run any battery like they do in most
> GA light aircraft . . . run 'em until they don't
> crank the engine any more. But keep in mind that
> most of those dark-n-stormy-night stories involving
> soggy batteries were penned by pilots who didn't
> recognize that they had battery-only endurance
> goals until it was too late to do anything about it.
>
> So, pick a battery. Set goals. Monitor performance
> over time and after you've gone through two or
> three batteries, you'll KNOW if it was a good
> value. We'd all appreciate it if you would share
> your discoveries here on the List.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax 912 Eating Ignition Modules |
| From: | "Guy Buchanan" <gebuchanan(at)cox.net> |
A friend has a 912uls in a Kitfox that seems to be eating ignition modules. He's
gone through three. Yes they were all old. Yes new ones work, but we're worried
that maybe his plane is producing electrical noise detrimental to the modules.
We did some testing using an oscilloscope looking for voltage spikes in the
ground wire during start up and shutoff. For various reasons we weren't able
to capture any voltage spikes during start and stop, but did capture some very
messy noise signatures while running. Picture 1 shows one module's ground wire
while "open". Note +/- 30V peaks and a regular 30hz sawtooth. Picture 2 shows
the same ground "grounded". We did some further testing of the input and output
to the voltage regulator and those voltages appeared relatively clean. Question:
is it possible the ignition module is being damaged by the voltage noise,
regardless of source? Should we apply some caps to the ground wires to kill
the noise?
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
gebuchanan(at)cox.net
--------
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 912Uls / Warp / 500 hours and flying again.
Now a glider pilot too.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498392#498392
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/labnation_screenshot2_759.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/labnation_screenshot0_837.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
At 06:54 PM 9/15/2020, you wrote:
>
>How about using the DC-DC converter (no backup battery), but only energize
>it during engine start? A dual diode will allow either the DC-DC
>converter or the power bus to supply current to the EFIS. Wired that way,
>there is no concern about the DC-DC converter malfunctioning during flight.
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
Yup . . . see Z101
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Difference between B&C Starter Contactors? |
Anyone know if there is any practical difference between the S702-1 & the
S811-1, besides $10.00? I'm redoing the electrical system in my RV-7A (I'm
not the builder) per Z101, and want to replace the existing contactors,
which I believe are the ones Vans sells. The form factor on the B&C starter
contactors is different, which will make it slightly more complicated to
retrofit. Is it worth the effort?
Thanks,
David
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Difference between B&C Starter Contactors? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The $10 might pay for the PMA.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498396#498396
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Difference between B&C Starter Contactors? |
Hi David,
It is my understanding that the S702-1 (sometimes called a "pancake" soleno
id) is a solenoid that has been optimized for cranking duty.=C2- I believ
e that Ford created the design some time in the 70s specifically to start e
ngines in Ford vehicles.=C2- Things like contact size and contact pressur
e were optimized for the specific task of short-duration high-current loads
encountered when starting engines.=C2- I believe that this makes the des
ign less likely to be a victim of the "weld shut" scenario that we occasion
ally hear about with older tin-can types.=C2- =C2-Based on this info I
have decided to use it in my RV-7 and in a friend's RV-14.
The other "tin can" configuration is a more general-purpose solenoid.=C2-
It seems to work fine as it is in thousands of little GA aircraft.
Some advantages of the S702-1:1. Optimized for the task of starting2. Ubiqu
itous - is in millions of Ford cars & trucks - you can get one at almost an
y auto parts store (even in PoDunk North Dakota)3. Cost effective
Jeff Luckey
arter.net> wrote:
Anyone know if there is any practical difference=C2-between the S702-1 &
the S811-1, besides $10.00?=C2- I'm redoing the electrical=C2-system i
n my RV-7A (I'm not the builder) per Z101, and want to replace the existing
contactors, which I believe=C2-are the ones Vans sells. The form factor
on the B&C starter contactors is different, which will make it slightly mor
e complicated to retrofit. Is it worth the effort?=C2-
Thanks,David
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Difference between B&C Starter Contactors? |
At 11:21 AM 9/17/2020, you wrote:
>Anyone know if there is any practical
>difference=C2 between the S702-1 & the S811-1,
>besides $10.00?=C2 I'm redoing the electrical=C2
>system in my RV-7A (I'm not the builder) per
>Z101, and want to replace the existing
>contactors, which I believe=C2 are the ones Vans
>sells. The form factor on the B&C starter
>contactors is different, which will make it
>slightly more complicated to retrofit. Is it worth the effort?=C2
Go here and get one of these
https://tinyurl.com/y5yzynuq
or get the same part from your
local Smiley Jack's Car Parts emporium:
Standard SS598T
Works good, lasts a long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Difference between B&C Starter Contactors? |
At 12:17 PM 9/17/2020, you wrote:
>Hi David,
>
>It is my understanding that the S702-1 (sometimes called a "pancake"
>solenoid) is a solenoid that has been optimized for cranking
>duty. I believe that Ford created the design some time in the 70s
>specifically to start engines in Ford vehicles. Things like contact
>size and contact pressure were optimized for the specific task of
>short-duration high-current loads encountered when starting
>engines. I believe that this makes the design less likely to be a
>victim of the "weld shut" scenario that we occasionally hear about
>with older tin-can types. Based on this info I have decided to use
>it in my RV-7 and in a friend's RV-14.
>
>The other "tin can" configuration is a more general-purpose
>solenoid. It seems to work fine as it is in thousands of little GA aircraft.
The all metal, contactors are available in an
intermittent duty style but they're hard to
find . . . and yes, they feature a large-area,
low-pressure contact not ideally suited to
hi-inrush loads. But they were used by the thousands
in all manner of vehicle including aircraft
for decades.
The more nimble footed, small-area, high-pressure
contact devices are more suited to this
application. They've become the gold-standard
for resistance to sticking . . . ESPECIALLY
with permanent magnet starters.
The Standard SS598T is but one example of dozens
in this class of device. Inexpensive and
very reliable in aircraft. Keep in mind that
aircraft engines get started what . . . maybe
50 times a year? My car gets started 50 times
a month!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
A couple weeks ago I ordered one of these off eBay:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/192243452240
DC-DC Converter
5 Amps
Input 3-35 V
Output 5-40 V
I'm trying to support ~1 A EFIS during start so I thought 5 A would be
plenty but a closer look at the description says it's good for 3 A with a
maximum of 5 A. Turns out the 3 A is on the input side, not the output
side. With a voltage output set point of 10V and a ~1 A lamp connected, the
lamp browns out (literally) as soon as the input voltage sags below 9V. A
long way from the 7V minimum I was hoping for. I plugged it into a Battery
Analyzer at 1.0 and 0.5 A and momentarily dropped the input voltage to 8V.
Even when voltage is restored it takes several seconds to recover back to
the set voltage with a 1 A load. A 0.5 A load is fine.
[image: Brownout Booster.jpg]
So I think these things work fine but are undersized for the application.
Unfortunately as soon as I look for 10A or 15A ones the minimum input
voltage rises to 8.5 or even 10V. I'm ready to give up on this little
project unless someone has found a cheap step up converter that will output
at least 1 A @ 10 V with the bus voltage available during engine start.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:08 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:54 PM 9/15/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> How about using the DC-DC converter (no backup battery), but only energize
> it during engine start? A dual diode will allow either the DC-DC
> converter or the power bus to supply current to the EFIS. Wired that way,
> there is no concern about the DC-DC converter malfunctioning during flight.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Yup . . . see Z101
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Need small physical size fuse 1/2 amp |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group I need to wire several LEDs and small relays. I want to use small wire
to do so and would like to steal some electron flow from some near by sources
which are fused well above rating of small wire. Thus I want to install fuses.
What are some options for small physical size fuses? At moment I'm thinking
something I can solder and shrink wrap onto the wire? Thx. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498418#498418
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need small physical size fuse 1/2 amp |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Littelfuse/0217400MXEP?qs=LpXnx4WbYtDEKhG6ZVugOw%3D%3D
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498420#498420
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need small physical size fuse 1/2 amp |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/18/2020 7:09 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Littelfuse/0217400MXEP?qs=LpXnx4WbYtDEKhG6ZVugOw%3D%3D
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
And if you're good with a soldering iron, you can solder directly to a
glass fuse yourself. But glass fuses are, in my experience, less than
reliable devices, especially in the lower amp values.
Here are some options that don't 'package' as well, but might be more
reliable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuse_(automotive)
Lots of other options, depending on how much you're willing to pay.
https://www.mouser.com/Circuit-Protection/Fuses/Fuses-with-Leads-Through-Hole/_/N-ba8hh?P=1yocc0pZ1yzshdi
Charlie
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator sawtooth current generation |
| From: | "rv8ch" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
Planepower/Harzell 60Amp, Earthx battery, GRT EIS 4000 w/hall effect sensor on
alternator B-lead, running all lights, etc. Steady state getting these kinds of
current fluctuations (see attachment).
Got some good suggestions from VAF and tried them all, even replaced the alternator,
same behavior.
https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=186043
The current shows a consistent pattern, and regular period of a bit over 11 seconds.
I don't know of anything in my aircraft with that period. It's all new, and this
has been happening since the start.
Happy for any hints!
--------
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498424#498424
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hb_ymm_alternator_output_20200918_839.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need small physical size fuse 1/2 amp |
At 02:01 PM 9/18/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group I need to wire several LEDs and small relays. I want to use
>small wire to do so and would like to steal some electron flow from
>some near by sources which are fused well above rating of small
>wire. Thus I want to install fuses. What are some options for small
>physical size fuses? At moment I'm thinking something I can solder
>and shrink wrap onto the wire? Thx. Ron P.
>
How many 'feeders' at what current levels?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator sawtooth current generation |
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 3:59 AM rv8ch wrote:
>
> Planepower/Harzell 60Amp, Earthx battery, GRT EIS 4000 w/hall effect
> sensor on alternator B-lead, running all lights, etc. Steady state getting
> these kinds of current fluctuations (see attachment).
>
> Got some good suggestions from VAF and tried them all, even replaced the
> alternator, same behavior.
>
> https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=186043
>
> The current shows a consistent pattern, and regular period of a bit over
> 11 seconds.
>
> I don't know of anything in my aircraft with that period. It's all new,
> and this has been happening since the start.
>
> Happy for any hints!
>
> --------
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
>
>
> Hi Mickey,
Questions spawn questions. :-)
It doesn't look like there's any issue with the voltage.
If you can access a stand-alone high current DC amp meter, that would be my
1st step; wire it in series with the alternator B lead to verify your EIS
current readings as vailid.
Assuming the current variations are real....
Where's the current sensor installed? On the alt B lead it will show total
current. On the Battery 'fat' lead, it will show charge/discharge to/from
the battery. On the bus feeder, it will show current consumed by airframe
devices.
Since it's a Hall sensor, it should be easy to move it around in the
electrical system. Move it to the battery's 'fat' pos. lead, to see if the
current fluctuates going into the battery. If you see the variations there,
repeat the test with an SLA battery....
Try it on the bus feeder. If you didn't see variations on the battery, you
should see them going to the airframe's devices.
Start with everything turned on, and one by one, turn off devices, until
nothing is left powered in the plane. If it's a device causing the
variations, it should be obvious which one is doing it.
Having said that, a 10A 'bump' in current, going to zero current, on an 11
second cycle rate, does not sound like any typical current consuming device
in our planes (you don't have anything like electric seat heaters, do you?).
My money is 1st on measurement error, and my hedge is the battery.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator sawtooth current generation |
At 03:55 AM 9/19/2020, you wrote:
>
>Planepower/Harzell 60Amp, Earthx battery, GRT EIS 4000 w/hall effect
>sensor on alternator B-lead, running all lights, etc. Steady state
>getting these kinds of current fluctuations (see attachment).
how big are the variations? Is vertical scale
on the plot zero to some max amps?
>Got some good suggestions from VAF and tried them all, even replaced
>the alternator, same behavior.
>
>https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=186043
>
>The current shows a consistent pattern, and regular period of a bit
>over 11 seconds.
>
>I don't know of anything in my aircraft with that period. It's all
>new, and this has been happening since the start.
What's the bus voltage doing during this time?
As long as the bus voltage is reasonably constant
and the alternator is not overloaded, I'm not
sure current flow from the alternator has much
significance. The alternator has no
control over current . . . only voltage and
that by way of commands from the regulator.
So it was safe bet that replacing the alternator
wouldn't 'fix' it.
But it's not really clear that anything needs
fixing . . . need to know the scale factors for that
current plot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator sawtooth current generation |
>Hi Mickey,
>
>Questions spawn questions. :-)
>It doesn't look like there's any issue with the voltage.
>
>If you can access a stand-alone high current DC
>amp meter, that would be my 1st step; wire it in
>series with the alternator B lead to verify your
>EIS current readings as vailid.=C2
Right on
>My money is 1st on measurement error, and my hedge is the battery.
>
>Charlie
Agreed. I'd conduct some experiments with the sensor
and compared with another instrument and battery
power only. See if that puppy's calibration is good.
The 11-second period is interesting . . . wondering
if this might be a 'beat note' between two regular
features of noise on the bus irritating the a/d
conversion process in the instrumentation.
But if the bus voltage is stable then some sort
of measurement error is high on the list of
probabilities.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
At 11:02 PM 9/17/2020, you wrote:
>A couple weeks ago I ordered one of these off eBay:
>
>https://www.ebay.ca/itm/192243452240
>
>DC-DC Converter
>5 Amps
>Input 3-35 V
>Output 5-40 V
>
>I'm trying to support ~1 A EFIS during start so I thought 5 A would
>be plenty but a closer look at the description says it's good for 3
>A with a maximum of 5 A. Turns out the 3 A is on the input side, not
>the output side. With a voltage output set point of 10V and a ~1 A
>lamp connected, the lamp browns out (literally) as soon as the input
>voltage sags below 9V. A long way from the 7V minimum I was hoping
>for. I plugged it into a Battery Analyzer at 1.0 and 0.5 A and
>momentarily dropped the input voltage to 8V. Even when voltage is
>restored it takes several seconds to recover back to the set voltage
>with a 1 A load. A 0.5 A load is fine.
Good investigative work sir! You're
on the right track. The up-converter
you have is a bit on the light side.
I'd go for beefy . . . and the up-converter
needs to be characterized in Watts. A converter
that would support a 5A load at 14V would be
rated at 70 W or more.
The test articles I have on hand are, as I recall,
150 W devices. I'm hoping to put power to them
to see if I can characterize their dynamic qualities
before I send you one.
I'm a bit out of pocket right now. Getting ready for
some roto-rooter work on my back . . . got a leg
that occasionally says, "I quit". It would not be
a good thing to be loading a patient and suddenly
find yourself on the ground asking the patient
to help you up!
Doc says it's a quick fix with excellent
prospects for success but in the interim,
my forays about the shop are limited. The
up converters I have are, I believe, this
one:
https://tinyurl.com/yxndk24a
Price is right, size is convenient . . .
and there is little risk for having
one that is too big. Thanks for sharing
your observations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator sawtooth current generation |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/19/2020 9:11 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> Hi Mickey,
>>
>> Questions spawn questions. :-)
>> It doesn't look like there's any issue with the voltage.
>>
>> If you can access a stand-alone high current DC amp meter, that would
>> be my 1st step; wire it in series with the alternator B lead to
>> verify your EIS current readings as vailid.
>
> Right on
>
>
>> My money is 1st on measurement error, and my hedge is the battery.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> Agreed. I'd conduct some experiments with the sensor
> and compared with another instrument and battery
> power only. See if that puppy's calibration is good.
> The 11-second period is interesting . . . wondering
> if this might be a 'beat note' between two regular
> features of noise on the bus irritating the a/d
> conversion process in the instrumentation.
>
> But if the bus voltage is stable then some sort
> of measurement error is high on the list of
> probabilities.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob,
The image in his VAF thread shows V & I ranges; V variation is ~.3V; I
is ~0--~10A.
The only 'device' I can think of that might cycle like that, at that
wattage level, would be a heater circuit that had a controller capable
of ramping power up/down in response to temp changes.
Oh...Pitot heat! Dynon and probably others now have temp controllers for
their pitot heat. And the current is about right.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 9/19/2020 9:26 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 11:02 PM 9/17/2020, you wrote:
>> A couple weeks ago I ordered one of these off eBay:
>>
>> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/192243452240
>>
>>
>> DC-DC Converter
>> 5 Amps
>> Input 3-35 V
>> Output 5-40 V
>>
>> I'm trying to support ~1 A EFIS during start so I thought 5 A would
>> be plenty but a closer look at the description says it's good for 3 A
>> with a maximum of 5 A. Turns out the 3 A is on the input side, not
>> the output side. With a voltage output set point of 10V and a ~1 A
>> lamp connected, the lamp browns out (literally) as soon as the input
>> voltage sags below 9V. A long way from the 7V minimum I was hoping
>> for. I plugged it into a Battery Analyzer at 1.0 and 0.5 A and
>> momentarily dropped the input voltage to 8V. Even when voltage is
>> restored it takes several seconds to recover back to the set voltage
>> with a 1 A load. A 0.5 A load is fine.
>
> Good investigative work sir! You're
> on the right track. The up-converter
> you have is a bit on the light side.
>
> I'd go for beefy . . . and the up-converter
> needs to be characterized in Watts. A converter
> that would support a 5A load at 14V would be
> rated at 70 W or more.
>
> The test articles I have on hand are, as I recall,
> 150 W devices. I'm hoping to put power to them
> to see if I can characterize their dynamic qualities
> before I send you one.
>
> I'm a bit out of pocket right now. Getting ready for
> some roto-rooter work on my back . . . got a leg
> that occasionally says, "I quit". It would not be
> a good thing to be loading a patient and suddenly
> find yourself on the ground asking the patient
> to help you up!
>
> Doc says it's a quick fix with excellent
> prospects for success but in the interim,
> my forays about the shop are limited. The
> up converters I have are, I believe, this
> one:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yxndk24a
>
> Price is right, size is convenient . . .
> and there is little risk for having
> one that is too big. Thanks for sharing
> your observations.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
These:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-10-12-15-20A-150-250-300-400-1200W-Step-up-Step-down-Buck-Boost/382219150784?hash=item58fe0965c0:g:6OwAAOSwisVZrgue
Claim to be good down to 8.5V input. Various wattage versions available.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
| From: | "meat_ball" <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net> |
Hello all again.
I want to install AeroLeds Aerosun landing and taxi lights. Two lights total,
one will be oriented for taxi attitude and one slightly higher orientation for
the landing light attitude on my tail dragger. That said, my thoughts, since
these lights have a built in wig-wag function, are to do just that. However,
I cannot figure out how to wire it.
According to the install guide for the lights, it says to have 2 switches. One
for the landing lights, and one for the wig wag function, which is fine if you
are using both lights as landing lights. Since I want one light as a landing
light and one as a taxi light, but use both for the wig-wag function, how does
that work switch-wise? One switch as OFF-Taxi-Both, and the other wig-wag?
There isn't enough information to know if when the wig-wag is "ON" the other
switch is bypassed? Am I thinking along the right lines? Better way to do this?
Any help? I've attached the install manual wiring diagram...
Thanks so much!
Rob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498434#498434
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2020_09_19_0100_0003_01_2120_aerosun_installation_revb_pdf_166.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
Hello Rob, I think you are overthinking it. By all means aim them
differently so that you have the best lighting for both landing and taxi,
and using the wig wag function is better than not using the wig wag
function regardless of which way they are aiming, but why not just wire it
exactly as per that drawing? Are you ever going to need to turn off just
one light?
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 8:52 AM meat_ball wrote:
> arjayefem(at)fastmail.net>
>
> Hello all again.
>
> I want to install AeroLeds Aerosun landing and taxi lights. Two lights
> total, one will be oriented for taxi attitude and one slightly higher
> orientation for the landing light attitude on my tail dragger. That said,
> my thoughts, since these lights have a built in wig-wag function, are to do
> just that. However, I cannot figure out how to wire it.
>
> According to the install guide for the lights, it says to have 2
> switches. One for the landing lights, and one for the wig wag function,
> which is fine if you are using both lights as landing lights. Since I want
> one light as a landing light and one as a taxi light, but use both for the
> wig-wag function, how does that work switch-wise? One switch as
> OFF-Taxi-Both, and the other wig-wag? There isn't enough information to
> know if when the wig-wag is "ON" the other switch is bypassed? Am I
> thinking along the right lines? Better way to do this?
>
> Any help? I've attached the install manual wiring diagram...
>
> Thanks so much!
>
> Rob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498434#498434
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2020_09_19_0100_0003_01_2120_aerosun_installation_revb_pdf_166.png
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
Now I'm getting confused. The converter Bob linked to has a minimum of 10
volts input. Charlie's is 8.5 volts. The only time we want these units
working is below 10 volts, and they need to work much lower than that. The
last start on my aircraft recorded a 7.6 from a fully charged battery and
that's just what the EFIS managed to capture at 1 sample per second.
Looking again I have found a couple units that claim to work at very low
voltages:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/DC-DC-10A-Buck-Boost-Converter-Step-Up-Down-regulator-Module-for-LED-Driver-US/254169431168
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/DC-DC-Buck-Boost-Converter-Adjustable-CC-CV-Step-Up-Down-Power-Supply-Module/124260980594
I'm considering ordering one for further testing.
Bob best wishes for a quick recovery but take your time. Get yourself fully
in fettle before worrying about anyone else!
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 8:17 AM Charlie England
wrote:
> On 9/19/2020 9:26 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> At 11:02 PM 9/17/2020, you wrote:
>
> A couple weeks ago I ordered one of these off eBay:
>
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/192243452240
>
> DC-DC Converter
> 5 Amps
> Input 3-35 V
> Output 5-40 V
>
> I'm trying to support ~1 A EFIS during start so I thought 5 A would be
> plenty but a closer look at the description says it's good for 3 A with a
> maximum of 5 A. Turns out the 3 A is on the input side, not the output
> side. With a voltage output set point of 10V and a ~1 A lamp connected, the
> lamp browns out (literally) as soon as the input voltage sags below 9V. A
> long way from the 7V minimum I was hoping for. I plugged it into a Battery
> Analyzer at 1.0 and 0.5 A and momentarily dropped the input voltage to 8V.
> Even when voltage is restored it takes several seconds to recover back to
> the set voltage with a 1 A load. A 0.5 A load is fine.
>
>
> Good investigative work sir! You're
> on the right track. The up-converter
> you have is a bit on the light side.
>
> I'd go for beefy . . . and the up-converter
> needs to be characterized in Watts. A converter
> that would support a 5A load at 14V would be
> rated at 70 W or more.
>
> The test articles I have on hand are, as I recall,
> 150 W devices. I'm hoping to put power to them
> to see if I can characterize their dynamic qualities
> before I send you one.
>
> I'm a bit out of pocket right now. Getting ready for
> some roto-rooter work on my back . . . got a leg
> that occasionally says, "I quit". It would not be
> a good thing to be loading a patient and suddenly
> find yourself on the ground asking the patient
> to help you up!
>
> Doc says it's a quick fix with excellent
> prospects for success but in the interim,
> my forays about the shop are limited. The
> up converters I have are, I believe, this
> one:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yxndk24a
>
> Price is right, size is convenient . . .
> and there is little risk for having
> one that is too big. Thanks for sharing
> your observations.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> These:
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-10-12-15-20A-150-250-300-400-1200W-Step-up-Step-down-Buck-Boost/382219150784?hash=item58fe0965c0:g:6OwAAOSwisVZrgue
> Claim to be good down to 8.5V input. Various wattage versions available.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_4819214867954981025_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
| From: | "meat_ball" <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net> |
cluros(at)gmail.com wrote:
> Hello Rob, I think you are overthinking it. By all means aim them differently
so that you have the best lighting for both landing and taxi, and using the wig
wag function is better than not using the wig wag function regardless of which
way they are aiming, but why not just wire it exactly as per that drawing?
Are you ever going to need to turn off just one light?
>
Well, I thought of that as well, and thanks for the response! I am quite sensitive,
because of my real job, to people blinding each other during night taxi ops.
I feel its quite unneighborly and dont want to be in that position. Great
point though...Ill have to think on it a bit more. Perhaps Im still overthinking
it, but in either case, Id like to know if it would be possible to do what
Im asking.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498436#498436
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator sawtooth current generation |
Thanks for the hints. The voltage stays very constant. No pitot heat or
other big consumers, except lights (landing/wigwag, position, strobes). I
did some experiments today without the lights for a longer period, and with
the fuel pump, and the current is smooth.
I have the hall effect sensor between the alternator and the main bus on
the B lead, so it should only be measuring the output of the alternator.
It really looks like the "culprit" is the lights. I will talk to Paul the
Flyleds guy and see if he's seen this. All my lights are Flyleds, but I
use Eric's wig-wag controller. It could be totally normal that he grabs a
lot of power in a cyclical way which is causing this. Starting to wish I
had installed multiple hall sensors, but my system is so simple, I didn't
really see a huge advantage.
One other thing I see is that when I remove the consumers, and leave just
the EFIS, radio, transponder, and pmags, the current from the
alternator drops very low, and then the ALT warning light I have wired in
there as shown by PlanePower flickers. It's a 12v LED from Fry's.
I feel kind of bad that PP sent me a new alternator. I described the
problem and they were certain it was a faulty alternator. I guess I should
have done more investigation on my own. I can only say good things about
their quick response to a problem!
Got some rainy days coming up so I might play around with it a bit more
before the next flight and report back.
Thanks again for the suggestions!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
Install a separate switch for each red wire.
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 09:36 meat_ball wrote:
> arjayefem(at)fastmail.net>
>
>
> cluros(at)gmail.com wrote:
> > Hello Rob, I think you are overthinking it. By all means aim them
> differently so that you have the best lighting for both landing and taxi,
> and using the wig wag function is better than not using the wig wag
> function regardless of which way they are aiming, but why not just wire i
t
> exactly as per that drawing? Are you ever going to need to turn off just
> one light?
> >
>
>
> Well, I thought of that as well, and thanks for the response! I am quite
> sensitive, because of my real job, to people blinding each other during
> night taxi ops. I feel it=99s quite unneighborly and don=99t
want to be in that
> position. Great point though...I=99ll have to think on it a bit mor
e.
> Perhaps I=99m still overthinking it, but in either case, I=99
d like to know if
> it would be possible to do what I=99m asking.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498436#498436
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
Here's figure 5.3, but with the center lights and optional diode removed.
I think that's what you're after.
5.2 would give you two landing lights that wig-wag. Not quite the same.
[image: image.png]
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 8:52 AM meat_ball wrote:
> arjayefem(at)fastmail.net>
>
> Hello all again.
>
> I want to install AeroLeds Aerosun landing and taxi lights. Two lights
> total, one will be oriented for taxi attitude and one slightly higher
> orientation for the landing light attitude on my tail dragger. That said,
> my thoughts, since these lights have a built in wig-wag function, are to do
> just that. However, I cannot figure out how to wire it.
>
> According to the install guide for the lights, it says to have 2
> switches. One for the landing lights, and one for the wig wag function,
> which is fine if you are using both lights as landing lights. Since I want
> one light as a landing light and one as a taxi light, but use both for the
> wig-wag function, how does that work switch-wise? One switch as
> OFF-Taxi-Both, and the other wig-wag? There isn't enough information to
> know if when the wig-wag is "ON" the other switch is bypassed? Am I
> thinking along the right lines? Better way to do this?
>
> Any help? I've attached the install manual wiring diagram...
>
> Thanks so much!
>
> Rob
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498434#498434
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2020_09_19_0100_0003_01_2120_aerosun_installation_revb_pdf_166.png
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Getting the numbers . . . |
>
>The image in his VAF thread shows V & I ranges; V variation is ~.3V;
>I is ~0--~10A.
>
>The only 'device' I can think of that might cycle like that, at that
>wattage level, would be a heater circuit that had a controller
>capable of ramping power up/down in response to temp changes.
>
>Oh...Pitot heat! Dynon and probably others now have temp controllers
>for their pitot heat. And the current is about right.
>
>Charlie
Aha! yeah . . . I'm betting it's pretty
simple. It's unfortunate that the condition
created so much work . . . especially doing
'swap-tronics'. I've always taught that
one should KNOW what needs to be removed
before picking up any wrenches.
Sometimes getting the numbers can be an
exercise . . . worked an intermittent
in the tail de-ice system on a Beechjet
that had grounded a revenue generating
airplane for over a month. Seems the problem
only manifested after 15 or 20 minutes at altitude.
A LOT of fuel and hours were consumed before
I was asked to join the search. We needed to
take measurements back in the 'hell hole'
just above the baggage compartment and
outside the pressure vessel.
Tried to capture the glitch with my laptop
DAS strapped down to the floor of the baggage.
compartment.
It takes quite awhile and lots of gas to
get to 41,000 feet . . . but about 12
minutes after leveling off, the system
glitched and we hoped to 'catch it' on the
DAS.
No joy . . . the heads on the lap-top's hard-
drive wouldn't 'fly' at 41K feet! That was
long before solid state hard drives.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/RK371_Deice_A.JPG
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/RK371_Deice_B.JPG
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/RK371_Deice_C.JPG
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/RK371_Deice_D.JPG
Plan B: I built a breakout box that would let me
bring the sample leads out to a ribbon cable
routed through the baggage compartment
door gasket, taped to the fuselage and into
the cabin through the cabin door gasket.
Had to put an x-ticket on the airplane.
I could sit in the cabin and watch the
system parameters.
On flight #2, the system 'glitched' again and
the DAS was in my lap. Knew exactly which system
wire to scope out. Found a pushed back pin in a
pressure bulkhead connector that would de-mate as the wire
bundle contracted in the cold air.
Sometimes the simplest things can be exceedingly
expensive to find . . . in this instance it
was tens of killobux! But in this case,
as in virtually all others, known good
numbers are the key solving the most
intractable problems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need small physical size fuse 1/2 amp |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Bob
2 LEDs and 1 mini relay
1 LED needs power from always hot bus about 4 feet away from LED, there's another
wire within inches
1 LED about 4 feet away from main bus, other power sources within inches
mini relay needs power from a specific wire that's passing right by the relay
The LEDs and mini relay are very low power, for robustness of wire will use 20
or 22, 1/2 or 1 amp should be fine.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498444#498444
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Rob I just did exactly what you want. I used 3 switches. I checked with AeroLED
and you can't hurt anything no matter how many switches you have on at once.
Just Wig Wag will Wig Wag. Landing on and Wig Wag will Wig Wag. Taxi on and
Wig Wag on will Wig Wag. Both Landing and Taxi on and Wig Wag on will Wig Wag.
Note when turning on Wig Wag both LEDs will light together for a short time
at the same time. I have a an Aerosun Landing and Microsun Taxi. I'm using 7 1/2
amp fuse for Wig Wag, 4 amp Aerosun and 3 amp for Microsun. I have mine located
within a few inches of each other. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498445#498445
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| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | S701-1 master relay wiring? |
The attached picture is as received from B&C. According to the enclosed
wiring instructions / picture, it appears to be wired backwards. The
jumper wire is on the wrong side, and the diode appears to be backwards.
Anyone else seen this? I'll put it on the test bench & verify the
connections before I install it.
--
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
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| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
| From: | "meat_ball" <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net> |
Dave Saylor wrote:
> Here's figure 5.3, but with the center lights and optional diode removed. I think
that's what you're after.
>
>
> 5.2 would give you two landing lights that wig-wag. Not quite the same.
>
>
Much obliged, Dave! I didnt think to use that diagram because it had too many lights
on it...haha. I need to think out of the box I guess.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498448#498448
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
| From: | "meat_ball" <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net> |
rparigoris wrote:
> Hi Rob I just did exactly what you want. I used 3 switches. I checked with AeroLED
and you can't hurt anything no matter how many switches you have on at once.
Just Wig Wag will Wig Wag. Landing on and Wig Wag will Wig Wag. Taxi on and
Wig Wag on will Wig Wag. Both Landing and Taxi on and Wig Wag on will Wig Wag.
Note when turning on Wig Wag both LEDs will light together for a short time
at the same time. I have a an Aerosun Landing and Microsun Taxi. I'm using 7
1/2 amp fuse for Wig Wag, 4 amp Aerosun and 3 amp for Microsun. I have mine located
within a few inches of each other. Ron P.
Sound good Ron! Thanks so much. Thats the info I was looking for.
Since thats the circuitry for the wig-wag, I suppose it wouldnt be difficult to
combine the landing and taxi circuits onto one double throw switch...you agree?
Im trying to minimize my panel layout...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498449#498449
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: S701-1 master relay wiring? |
The contactor can work in either direction so each picture is wired correctly.
For the second pic, from the battery would be on the right and master switch
on the left. I will be embarrassed if Bob says otherwise. :-)
The diode works so that when the the master switch is turned off, the coil current
collapses creating a surge but the surge cannot return to arc the master switch
contacts. It can only go towards the battery which does not care.
-Kent
> On Sep 19, 2020, at 3:36 PM, David Carter wrote:
>
> The attached picture is as received from B&C. According to the enclosed wiring
instructions / picture, it appears to be wired backwards. The jumper wire
is on the wrong side, and the diode appears to be backwards. Anyone else seen
this? I'll put it on the test bench & verify the connections before I install
it.
>
>
> --
> ---
> David Carter
> david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need small physical size fuse 1/2 amp |
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 2:01 PM rparigoris wrote:
> rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
>
> Hi Bob
>
> 2 LEDs and 1 mini relay
>
> 1 LED needs power from always hot bus about 4 feet away from LED, there's
> another wire within inches
>
> 1 LED about 4 feet away from main bus, other power sources within inches
>
> mini relay needs power from a specific wire that's passing right by the
> relay
>
> The LEDs and mini relay are very low power, for robustness of wire will
> use 20 or 22, 1/2 or 1 amp should be fine.
>
> Ron P.
*With a few inches of feeder, **I'd probably just hook them up to the
closest power feeder with same-gauge wire, if available sources are on when
the LED or relay needs to be on. With inches of wire in each case, the
weight would be barely measurable. Only thing that might give me pause is
if the selected power source fed a flight-critical component, and with
reasonable wire routing, there'd be little risk, regardless. If an
indicator LED shorts, it should 'self fuse' (burn open) almost
instantly, if it's current limit resistor allows it. The current limit
resistor could be at the power tap, if it uses a separate resistor.I
suspect that a mini relay coil would self fuse, as well, but that's a
little less certain. You might well be able to use a series resistor at the
source as a current limiter for the relay coil, as well.*
*Charlie*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: S701-1 master relay wiring? |
At 02:36 PM 9/19/2020, you wrote:
>The attached picture is as received from
>B&C.=C2 According to the enclosed wiring
>instructions / picture, it appears to be wired
>backwards.=C2 The jumper wire is on the wrong
>side, and the diode appears to be
>backwards.=C2 Anyone else seen this? I'll put it
>on the test bench & verify the connections before I install=C2 it.
The contactor IS a symmetrical device.
If for mechanical reasons one wished to
reverse the input/output functons of the
main terminals, you could flip the diode
and move the jumper to the other side.
But if installation mechanics are no issue
then the device is correctly configured
as supplied and yes, the illustration
describes the ALTERNATE but equally functional
condition.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | A RICHARD GOLDMAN <argoldman(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: S701-1 master relay wiring? |
Dave,
Perhaps the picture reflects that the master relay is activated by connectin
g the pole to ground not 12v
If that were not the case, you would need to turn on the master switch to t
hen turn on the master switch.
This also prevents the necessity to always have a constant hot wire to the p
anel. What could possibly go wrong with that?
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 19, 2020, at 2:36 PM, David Carter wrote:
>
> The attached picture is as received from B&C. According to the enclosed w
iring instructions / picture, it appears to be wired backwards. The jumper w
ire is on the wrong side, and the diode appears to be backwards. Anyone els
e seen this? I'll put it on the test bench & verify the connections before I
install it.
>
>
> --
> ---
> David Carter
> david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S701-1 master relay wiring? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Arc suppression diodes are always wired with the banded end connected to positive.
The diagram is correct.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498454#498454
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
Rob,
I did essentially the same thing you describe with a pair of AeroSun lamps.
The only difference is that I just turned them both on all of the time. I
want to be seen. I really don't care whether my taxi light is on when I am
landing. I want *all* of the lights on.
Here is my wiring diagram. (The AeroLEDs diagram is included on the lower,
left corner of the page.)
landing taxi lights.pdf
BTW, I think that you will be delighted with how bright these are. I have
had multiple people come up to me on the ramp and say stuff like, "Whoa!
You are super bright and easy to see!" I never got around to aiming the
lights very carefully and they still illuminate the ramp quite well.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 11:02 AM meat_ball wrote:
> arjayefem(at)fastmail.net>
>
> Hello all again.
>
> I want to install AeroLeds Aerosun landing and taxi lights. Two lights
> total, one will be oriented for taxi attitude and one slightly higher
> orientation for the landing light attitude on my tail dragger. That said,
> my thoughts, since these lights have a built in wig-wag function, are to do
> just that. However, I cannot figure out how to wire it.
>
> According to the install guide for the lights, it says to have 2
> switches. One for the landing lights, and one for the wig wag function,
> which is fine if you are using both lights as landing lights. Since I want
> one light as a landing light and one as a taxi light, but use both for the
> wig-wag function, how does that work switch-wise? One switch as
> OFF-Taxi-Both, and the other wig-wag? There isn't enough information to
> know if when the wig-wag is "ON" the other switch is bypassed? Am I
> thinking along the right lines? Better way to do this?
>
> Any help? I've attached the install manual wiring diagram...
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*Each of us is worth only what we are willing to give away to others. --
Lynn Schusterman*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
Rob,
That makes perfect sense. For that reason, I have my strobes on a separate
switch and when I am taxiing toward someone at night, I turn off my
landing/taxi lights (unless I really need them). 99% of my flying is during
the day, though, so I just leave them on wig-wag all the time.
-- Art Z.
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 11:50 AM meat_ball wrote:
> arjayefem(at)fastmail.net>
>
>
> cluros(at)gmail.com wrote:
> > Hello Rob, I think you are overthinking it. By all means aim them
> differently so that you have the best lighting for both landing and taxi,
> and using the wig wag function is better than not using the wig wag
> function regardless of which way they are aiming, but why not just wire i
t
> exactly as per that drawing? Are you ever going to need to turn off just
> one light?
> >
>
>
> Well, I thought of that as well, and thanks for the response! I am quite
> sensitive, because of my real job, to people blinding each other during
> night taxi ops. I feel it=99s quite unneighborly and don=99t
want to be in that
> position. Great point though...I=99ll have to think on it a bit mor
e.
> Perhaps I=99m still overthinking it, but in either case, I=99
d like to know if
> it would be possible to do what I=99m asking.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498436#498436
>
>
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===========
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>
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*Each of us is worth only what we are willing to give away to others. --
Lynn Schusterman*
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
| From: | "meat_ball" <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net> |
art(at)zemon.name wrote:
> Rob,
>
>
> I did essentially the same thing youdescribe with a pair of AeroSun lamps. The
only difference is that I just turned them both on all of the time. I want to
be seen. I reallydon't care whether my taxi light is on when I am landing. I
want allof the lights on.
>
>
> Here is my wiring diagram. (The AeroLEDs diagram is included on the lower, left
corner of the page.)
>
> [img]https://drive-thirdparty.googleusercontent.com/16/type/application/pdf[/img]landing
taxi lights.pdf (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzOP2gb9_3RQQkt6aWw3aTU2NVk/view?usp=drive_web)
>
>
> BTW, I think that you will be delighted with how bright these are. I have had
multiple people come up to me on the ramp and say stuff like, "Whoa! You are
super bright and easy to see!" I never got around to aiming the lights very carefully
and they still illuminate the ramp quite well.
>
>
> Cheers,
> -- Art Z.
>
Art, thanks for the response. All makes perfect sense! I have a question about
your wiring diagram. You have a green circle around Positions 4, 5, 6 in 2 different
places on the upper right. Will you explain what those are depicting
as I am not familiar with that symbology?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498461#498461
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: S701-1 master relay wiring? |
Just to be sure all bases are covered...
If the diode & jumper are reversed, the battery connection and switch
connection will be reversed, as well. The master switch is the only switch
that's in the 'ground side' of a circuit. Instead of supplying power to the
device (relay coil, in this case), it completes the circuit to ground. That
avoids having an extra 'hot' wire making the long run to the switch, and
avoids the need to protect the wire with a fuse/breaker.
Charlie
On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 7:18 AM Kent or Jackie Ashton
wrote:
> kjashton(at)vnet.net>
>
> The contactor can work in either direction so each picture is wired
> correctly. For the second pic, =9Cfrom the battery=9D would
be on the right=9D
> and =9Cmaster switch=9D on the left. I will be embarrassed
if Bob says
> otherwise. :-)
>
> The diode works so that when the the master switch is turned off, the coi
l
> current collapses creating a surge but the surge cannot return to arc the
> master switch contacts. It can only go towards the battery which does no
t
> care.
> -Kent
>
> > On Sep 19, 2020, at 3:36 PM, David Carter wrote:
> >
> > The attached picture is as received from B&C. According to the enclose
d
> wiring instructions / picture, it appears to be wired backwards. The
> jumper wire is on the wrong side, and the diode appears to be backwards.
> Anyone else seen this? I'll put it on the test bench & verify the
> connections before I install it.
> >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > David Carter
> > david(at)carter.net
>
>
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===========
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===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | evolution of lithium technologies |
I've been studying current options for lithium
cells on the market. Discovered some interesting
things. For example . . . this excerpt from the
engineering data sheet on an 18650 cell cited
as suitable for battery powered tools:
----------------------------
9.0. Safety
9.1 Overcharge test
Test method: To charge with 20A-20V at 25=81=8E for 3hr.
Criteria: No fire, and no explosion.
9.2 External short-circuit test
Test method: To short-circuit the standard
charged cell (or 50% discharged cell)
by connecting positive and negative terminal by 80mOhm wire for 10min.
Criteria: No fire, and no explosion.
9.3 Reverse charge test
Test method: To charge the standard charged cell with charge current 10A
By 20V for 2.5 hours.
Criteria: No fire, and no explosion.
9.4 Heating test
Test method: To heat up the standard charged
cell at heating rate 5=81=8E per minute up to
130=81=8E and keep the cell in oven for 10 minutes.
Criteria: No fire, and no explosion.
-------------------------------
What insults might these cells endure if
incorporated into a flight system? Any worse
than those cited above? Just thinking . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing and Taxi lights wig wag |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Rob I think using 1 switch for both Taxi and Landing LED should be fine. I suggest
you try it, could do a temporary on bench or in situation test. Because
you are not wanting to control LEDs individual, you could get away with 1 power
fuse. Measure amperage draw during your test. Ron
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498465#498465
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | who wudda thunk it? |
I'm replacing an in-dash radio in the family chariot . . .
seems the venerable ol' Kenwood CD player radio just
doesn't cut it any more. Nobody carries CDs in the
car and everyone wants to link their mobile phone
to the radio via blue tooth. Ahhh fair Kenwood, tho
has served me well . . . RIP.
The vehicle to radio adapter harness needs to
transition from Kenwood to JVC. Its a harness
I built about 6 years ago. I was surprised to
find that about some of the shrink over splices
between radio and vehicle connectors had MIGRATED to
locations that no longer cover the solder joint.
I know that the shrink had a good grip on the
irregularities of the solder joint when the harness
was built. But after years of temperature cycles
under the dash, the heat shrink kinda un-shrunk!
It became more round and released it's grip on
the joint. This allowed the tubing to vibrate
clear of the solder joint! Only a few actually
moved but all were loose and could be easily
moved.
We now know a lot more than we understand. Funky
brand of HS? Normal behavior for a polyolfin
shrink? I'm getting ready to mod the harness
with a new radio connector . . . I think I'll
use something different for joints. Perhaps
crimp-shrink butt splices, solder sleeves or
maybe double wall heat shrink with the internal
adhesive. So many choices but no doubt all
of them better than the choice I made last
time.
Just a heads-up guys.
August 25, 2020 - September 20, 2020
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-po