AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pu
October 12, 2020 - November 04, 2020
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
At 01:16 PM 10/12/2020, you wrote:
>I have a Z 16 which includes=C2 the fusible link
>between the capacitor and the starter contactor.=C2
>However in a recent thread I saw that the 16
>awg=C2 fuselink=C2 must be 8 inches - mine is about 4 inches.
Throw a loop in it.
>=C2 Also In the same thread=C2 I understood that
>fuselink=C2 could be replaced=C2 with a time delay fuse.
>Can I replace the 16awg=C2 fuselink=C2 with a 30A time delay maxi fuse?
The MAX series are not especially 'time delay'
but yes, you can use that device in lieu of
fuselink wire.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cinch Box Termina Block |
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:05 PM Jeff Luckey wrote:
> Are these "cinch box" connectors considered gas-tight. I have to imagine
> they are since the terminal block is UL & CSA, etc approved.
>
> However, I don't see them used very much on aviation devices. Is there a
> reason for that?
>
> Please see the attached photo.
>
>
> Thx,
>
> Jeff Luckey
>
>
> I've seen similar devices with corrosion in the wire junctions. I don't
care for them more because there's no inherent strain relief outside the
stripped area of the wire (up on the insulation), than the gas-tight
question. They do have the advantage of not requiring additional
connectors; just strip, insert, tighten.
FWIW...
Charlie
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cinch Box Termina Block |
At 01:55 PM 10/12/2020, you wrote:
>Are these "cinch box" connectors considered gas-tight. I have to
>imagine they are since the terminal block is UL & CSA, etc approved.
>
>However, I don't see them used very much on aviation devices. Is
>there a reason for that?
Gas tight generally means that the
wire strands are totally surrounded
by the wire-grip which is compressed
such that no voids exist between the
wire and the wire grip. This generally
requires that the individual strands
are no longer round having been firmly
mashed against each other inside the
wire grip. Read: pressures generally
exceeding 30,000 psi.
https://tinyurl.com/yxwqtvwz
These 'clamp' connectors would not
meet that definition. Having said
that, I think EMagAir uses this
style connector on their plug-n-
play magneto products. Of course
we've seen them on countless COTS
products some of which are suggested
for use in less than friendly environments.
Where did you think you might use
them on your project?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cinch Box Termina Block |
>
>I've seen similar devices with corrosion in the
>wire junctions. I don't care for them more
>because there's no inherent strain relief
>outside the stripped area of the wire (up on the
>insulation), than the gas-tight question.=C2 They
>do have the advantage of not requiring
>additional connectors; just strip, insert, tighten.
Charlie brings up another point probably
more important than gas-tight: Insulation
support.
Some of the graybeards here on the list will recall
a fellow named Greg Richter who offered one of
the earliest OBAM Aviation EFIS systems under the
Blue Mountain trade mark.
In a how-to document he published, there was an
picture of another make-it-easier-wire-product
that sort of competed with EXP-Bus. See picture
below. See the critique of this product on pages
41-42 of:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/response_1.pdf
Greg was quite a conversationalist . . . you can
access the totality of our discussion over
his publication here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/
But I agree with Charlie's short answer.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cinch Box Termina Block |
The corrosion Charlie mentions could be dealt with by using a smear of die
lectric grease.
The strain release could be dealt with, and least in the device Bob picture
s, by using a second row of connectors that the wire passed through before
being clamped in the electrically active one.=C2- the second row wouldn't
even need to be tightened down on the insulation, but it probably wouldn't
hurt.
uckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
I've seen similar devices with corrosion in the wire junctions. Idon't care
for them more because there's no inherent strain reliefoutside the strippe
d area of the wire (up on the insulation), than thegas-tight question.=C3
=82 They do have the advantage of not requiringadditional connectors; just
strip, insert,tighten.
=C2- Charlie brings up another point probably
=C2- more important than gas-tight: Insulation
=C2- support.
=C2- Some of the graybeards here on the list willrecall
=C2- a fellow named Greg Richter who offered one of
=C2- the earliest OBAM Aviation EFIS systems under the
=C2- Blue Mountain trade mark.
=C2- In a how-to document he published, there was an
=C2- picture of another make-it-easier-wire-product
=C2- that sort of competed with EXP-Bus. See picture
=C2- below. See the critique of this product on pages
=C2- 41-42 of:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/response_1.pdf
=C2-
=C2- Greg was quite a conversationalist . . . you can
=C2- access the totality of our discussion over
=C2- his publication here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/
=C2- But I agree with Charlie's short answer.
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trouble with Image Attachment |
try changing the file type to .jpg
On Oct 12, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
I'm trying to include a picture with a posting to the List by including
as an attachment. However I get an error message from the Matronics
server that says "Non supported enclosure type..".
The file is a 3 Mb .jpeg. The error message lists .jpeg as a valid
attachment type.
What am I doing wrong?
-Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trouble with Image Attachment |
David,
I reduced the file size from 3 Mb to less than 1 Mb, per BobN's suggestion,
and it worked.
wrote:
try changing the file type to .jpg
On Oct 12, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
I'm trying to include a picture with a posting to the List by including as
an attachment.=C2- However I get an error message from the Matronics serv
er that says "Non supported enclosure type..".=C2-
The file is a 3 Mb .jpeg.=C2- The error message lists .jpeg=C2- as a va
lid attachment type.
What am I doing wrong?
-Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
500 RV-12s are flying. They all have a 30 amp ATO fuse in series with the charging
system. The fuse is not time delay.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498787#498787
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cinch Box Termina Block |
I like the terminal strip because of the density of connections.=C2- In
a previous email Bob attached a pic of GregR's appliance and I agree with p
revious comments that there is insufficient strain relief in that installat
ion. However, with careful strapping very close to the terminal block one c
an reduce the "strain" on the connected wires.
To answer Bob's question, I plan to use the terminal block in a 6x6x3 inch
aluminum box which contains all the hi-current stuff (start solenoid, maste
r solenoid, shunt and all related fuses).=C2- It will mount on the firewa
ll very close to the battery.=C2- One big wire will connect B+ to the box
and then a big wire will go out to the starter.=C2- Then some #8s to the
alternator, distribution panel.
The terminal block in question will be used to connect the control & meteri
ng wiring.
-Jeff
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 01:55 PM 10/12/2020, you wrote:
Are these "cinch box"connectors considered gas-tight.=C2- I have to imagi
ne they are sincethe terminal block is UL & CSA, etc approved.
However, I don't see them used very much on aviation devices.=C2- Isthere
a reason for that?
=C2-Gas tight generally means that the
=C2-wire strands are totally surrounded
=C2-by the wire-grip which is compressed
=C2-such that no voids exist between the
=C2-wire and the wire grip. This generally
=C2-requires that the individual strands
=C2-are no longer round having been firmly
=C2-mashed against each other inside the
=C2-wire grip. Read: pressures generally
=C2-exceeding 30,000 psi.
=C2-
https://tinyurl.com/yxwqtvwz
=C2-These 'clamp' connectors would not
=C2-meet that definition. Having said
=C2-that, I think EMagAir uses this
=C2-style connector on their plug-n-
=C2-play magneto products. Of course
=C2-we've seen them on countless COTS
=C2-products some of which are suggested
=C2-for use in less than friendly environments.
=C2-Where did you think you might use
=C2-them on your project?
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cinch Box Termina Block |
At 07:12 PM 10/12/2020, you wrote:
>I like the terminal strip because of the density of connections. In
>a previous email Bob attached a pic of GregR's appliance and I agree
>with previous comments that there is insufficient strain relief in
>that installation. However, with careful strapping very close to the
>terminal block one can reduce the "strain" on the connected wires.
>
>To answer Bob's question, I plan to use the terminal block in a
>6x6x3 inch aluminum box which contains all the hi-current stuff
>(start solenoid, master solenoid, shunt and all related fuses). It
>will mount on the firewall very close to the battery. One big wire
>will connect B+ to the box and then a big wire will go out to the
>starter. Then some #8s to the alternator, distribution panel.
>
>The terminal block in question will be used to connect the control &
>metering wiring.
Why not a d-sub connector? I can loan you a
Greenlee punch to cut the funky hole. I've
probably got plugs, sockets, back-shells and pins
laying around here too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine Monitor P-lead question |
| From: | "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com> |
Well in the absence of any reply I installed the P-leads to the monitor in the
wiring bundle with the other wires. So far there seems to be no adverse effects.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498791#498791
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi William
Here's comparison for ATO, MIDI, MAXI and ANL. ANL sure does take a long time to
melt.
ATO: https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/catalogs/littelfuse_fuseology.pdf
MIDI: https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotive-fuses/littelfuse_automotive_bolt_down_fuse_midi_32v.pdf
MAXI: https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotive-fuses/littelfuse_maxi_32v_blade_fuses.pdf
ANL:http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/product-datasheets-a/Bus_Ele_DS_2024_ANL.pdf
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498792#498792
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
Interesting that the ato fuse life is affected by ambient temperature.
So if the fuse is in the engine bay the fuse life is shorter than if it's
in the cockpit? And likewise shorter in miami than in anchorage?
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 22:56 rparigoris wrote:
> rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
>
> Hi William
> Here's comparison for ATO, MIDI, MAXI and ANL. ANL sure does take a long
> time to melt.
> ATO:
> https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/catalogs/littelfuse_fuseology.pdf
> MIDI:
> https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotive-fuses/littelfuse_automotive_bolt_down_fuse_midi_32v.pdf
> MAXI:
> https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotive-fuses/littelfuse_maxi_32v_blade_fuses.pdf
> ANL:
> http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/product-datasheets-a/Bus_Ele_DS_2024_ANL.pdf
>
> Ron P.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498792#498792
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
Joe thanks.
Simple is normally better. And you can easily find a replacement.
I have ato fuses for the rest of the system.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 19:50 user9253 wrote:
>
> 500 RV-12s are flying. They all have a 30 amp ATO fuse in series with the
> charging system. The fuse is not time delay.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498787#498787
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
At 09:47 PM 10/12/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi William
>Here's comparison for ATO, MIDI, MAXI and ANL. ANL sure does take a
>long time to melt.
That's because the ANL is not a fuse, it's
a fault current limiter intended for used
in power distribution systems with
lower-energy protections downstream. I.e.
protection of a long feed to a bus structure.
Same thing with fusible links. These devices
are expected to operate on occurrence of a
hard fault on the distribution system . . .
not on a protected feeder to an appliance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
As I read it, they were talking about life at overload conditions, not gener
al life. Almost all things have shorter lives at elevated temps though, but
I doubt you will see a significant difference in general fuse life between M
iami and Anchorage. However, if a fuse is located in a hot environment, the
n it does need to be rated properly for the current it needs to carry and no
t carry.
A fuse is a thermal device. All it knows is that it should melt a a certain
temperature. It doesn=99t much matter when you heat it resistively w
ith electric current or heat it with a torch. Heat is heat.
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 13, 2020, at 7:48 AM, William Daniell
wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Interesting that the ato fuse life is affected by ambient temperature. S
o if the fuse is in the engine bay the fuse life is shorter than if it's in t
he cockpit? And likewise shorter in miami than in anchorage?
>
> William Daniell
> +1 786 878 0246
>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 22:56 rparigoris wrote:
om>
>>
>> Hi William
>> Here's comparison for ATO, MIDI, MAXI and ANL. ANL sure does take a long t
ime to melt.
>> ATO: https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/catalogs/littelfuse_fu
seology.pdf
>> MIDI: https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/auto
motive-fuses/littelfuse_automotive_bolt_down_fuse_midi_32v.pdf
>> MAXI: https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/auto
motive-fuses/littelfuse_maxi_32v_blade_fuses.pdf
>> ANL:http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrica
l/Resources/product-datasheets-a/Bus_Ele_DS_2024_ANL.pdf
>>
>> Ron P.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498792#498792
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie Willis <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
I recently installed Aero Leds wing tip strobes, beacon and wig wag landing lights.
I hear no strobe noise with the engine off. However when its running I
get noise from the wing tip strobes, wig wag and pitot heat, no noise from the
beacon. Any ideas. All shielding according to installation instructions. One
issue I suspect is the nearby location of the audio plugs to the circuit breakers
powering these lights. But what difference does the engine running make?
Any ideas.
Looking forward to your reply,
Bernie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
When the engine is off, the battery powers everything.
When the engine is running, the alternator powers everything.
If the voltage regulator is external, is it properly grounded?
Are the audio jacks mounted with insulating washers?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498802#498802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
Joe,
Yes on the insulation of the audio jacks. I will confirm the voltage regulator
grounding.
Thanks
Bernie
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 13, 2020, at 12:16 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> When the engine is off, the battery powers everything.
> When the engine is running, the alternator powers everything.
> If the voltage regulator is external, is it properly grounded?
> Are the audio jacks mounted with insulating washers?
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498802#498802
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
Might also be useful to 'visualize' the ground paths from the various
appliances back to the bat neg, your audio devices ground paths back to bat
neg, and the ground paths for the regulator & alternator (engine ground
wire) back to bat neg. If any of the noise producers (alt, any 'switcher'
type LED supplies, etc) share a ground path with your audio gear....
Charlie
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:07 PM Bernie wrote:
>
> Joe,
> Yes on the insulation of the audio jacks. I will confirm the voltage
> regulator grounding.
>
> Thanks
> Bernie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 13, 2020, at 12:16 PM, user9253 wrote:
> >
mail.com>
> >
> > When the engine is off, the battery powers everything.
> > When the engine is running, the alternator powers everything.
> > If the voltage regulator is external, is it properly grounded?
> > Are the audio jacks mounted with insulating washers?
> >
> > --------
> > Joe Gores
>
>
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Is the alternator "B" lead of adequate size and are its connections clean and tight?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498806#498806
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
At 06:40 AM 10/13/2020, you wrote:
>Interesting that the ato fuse life is affected
>by ambient temperature.=C2 =C2 So if the fuse is
>in the engine bay the fuse life is shorter than
>if it's in the cockpit?=C2 And likewise shorter in miami than in
anchorage?
All protection technologies function
by 'melting' should be de-rated by a
significant factor of it's rated current
to compensate for two effects. One is
ambient temperature . . . just like wire
insulation, elevated ambient depresses
temperature rise headroom. See
https://tinyurl.com/yxdovxhj
The second effect is not so well understood
but it can be equally significant: Any
device that depends on temperature to
melt can be 'hammered' by a series of
transient events that push the fusible
element close to but just short of melting.
Common examples of transient inrush
currents include incandescent landing lights, motors,
heated pitot tubes, etc.
Fuses sized for nominal running currents
would fail inexplicably after many operating
hours. The fuses were 'hammered' over a
series of inrush events that depressed
their T=K*I(squared)R numbers . . .
I forget which supplier document cites
it but at least one manufacturer recommends that
small fuses not be nominally loaded to more than 70
percent of rating. They might need further
de-rating due to elevated ambient temperatures.
Just keep in mind that fuses protect wires.
Wires are sized conservatively for acceptable
temperature rises and voltage drops. A builder
on this forum once raised the question about
wiring the majority of low current feeders
with 18 or 20 AWG wire (I think he got a
really good deal on a big spool of the
stuff) and then protecting all the feeders
at 10A.
Nothing at all wrong with that . . . and
he sure didn't have to fuss over procurement
and circuit sizing.
ANL, MANL, fusible links, and similar
products are already de-rated by 50 percent
or more. An ANL35 will carry 80A indefinitely
at room temperature.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
At 01:55 PM 10/13/2020, you wrote:
>
>I recently installed Aero Leds wing tip strobes, beacon and wig wag
>landing lights. I hear no strobe noise with the engine off.
>However when its running I get noise from the wing tip strobes,
>wig wag and pitot heat, no noise from the beacon.
When you say 'noise', how would you describe
it. Is it a musical note or whine that changes
pitch with engine rpm?
>Any ideas. All shielding according to installation instructions.
Shielding is almost NEVER an issue with the
symptoms you've described.
>One issue I suspect is the nearby location of the audio plugs
>to the circuit breakers powering these lights.
Proximity to breakers/breaker wiring is also
and exceedingly rare prospect for root cause.
>But what difference does the engine running make?
I suspect alternator noise which can't happen
if the alternator is not putting out power.
Does the noise go away when you shut the alternator
OFF with the engine still running?
If you shut all the new systems off and bring
them on one-at-a-time, does the noise return
for any combination of functional/non-functional
systems?
What kind of airplane, engine and alternator?
Wired per any of the z-figures?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: In line fuseholder |
>
> All protection technologies THAT function
> by 'melting' should be de-rated by a
> significant factor of it's rated current
> to compensate for two effects:
Protection technologies that function
by 'bending' of a bi-metal spring are
not subject to 'hammering' but their
calibration is still influenced by ambient
temperature.
Getting to the original question, elevated
temperature combined with hammering
could appear to shorten the life of
a fuse. When in doubt for fuses ahead
of fire wall, design rules call for
conservative de-rating. If you have
a fuse blowing for non-obvious reasons
after significant service in a high
temperature environment, going up
one step in fuse rating is a good fix
that does not increase risk.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 400 series memory battery low |
Le 12/10/2020 03:20, Charles Kuss a crit:
>
> /I would suggest you use Google Translate to translate the German
> instructions into English./
Charles and David,
Thank you for responding !
We'll now undertake the battery change with confidence - and some ESD
precautions...
Thanks,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
Thanks to all of you for the quick responses. I=99ll be back to the ai
rplane in a couple days.
It is a 1956 G Bonanza. Plane power alternator. The strobes and wig wag nois
e is an alternating ping/hum. The pitot heat and landing lights are a steady
hum. The LED beacon is quiet. I did found
an empty grounding lug on the regulator. All of the above elec. devices are g
rounded to a ground buss which is stainless bolted to a bulkhead. Older radi
os are grounded to various unknown places. The noise goes away when I shut d
own the engine but haven=99t tried Turing off the alternator with the e
ngine running. Hope to get to it tomorrow. In the mean time would a 16 gauge
wire be appropriate to ground the alternator?
Bernie
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 13, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele
ctric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB At 01:55 PM 10/13/2020, you wrote:
.com>
>>
>> I recently installed Aero Leds wing tip strobes, beacon and wig wag
>> landing lights. I hear no strobe noise with the engine off.
>> However when its running I get noise from the wing tip strobes,
>> wig wag and pitot heat, no noise from the beacon.
>
> When you say 'noise', how would you describe
> it. Is it a musical note or whine that changes
> pitch with engine rpm?
>
>> Any ideas. All shielding according to installation instructions.
>
> Shielding is almost NEVER an issue with the
> symptoms you've described.
>
>> One issue I suspect is the nearby location of the audio plugs
>> to the circuit breakers powering these lights.
>
> Proximity to breakers/breaker wiring is also
> and exceedingly rare prospect for root cause.
>
>> But what difference does the engine running make?
>
> I suspect alternator noise which can't happen
> if the alternator is not putting out power.
> Does the noise go away when you shut the alternator
> OFF with the engine still running?
>
> If you shut all the new systems off and bring
> them on one-at-a-time, does the noise return
> for any combination of functional/non-functional
> systems?
>
> What kind of airplane, engine and alternator?
>
> Wired per any of the z-figures?
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Usually the negative wire needs to be the same size as the positive wire. The
exception is when
the negative current has another path to ground, for instance through mounting
brackets.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498821#498821
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
At 10:33 AM 10/14/2020, you wrote:
>Thanks to all of you for the quick responses.
>I=99ll be back to the airplane in a couple days.
>
>It is a 1956 G Bonanza.
Hmmm . . . airplanes of this vintage are
renowned for high resistance airframes which
are fertilizer for ground loop issues.
>Plane power alternator. The strobes and wig wag
>noise is an alternating ping/hum. The
>pitot heat and landing lights are a steady hum. The LED beacon is quiet.
Are all the 'hums' the same pitch and do they
rise and fall with alternator rpm?
>I did found an empty grounding lug on the
>regulator. All of the above elec. devices are grounded
>to a ground buss which is stainless bolted to a bulkhead.
. . . all this happens behind the cabin?
>Older radios are grounded to various unknown places.
>The noise goes away when I shut down the engine
>but haven't tried Turing off the alternator with
>the engine running.
This is key . . . but I'm betting the noise
is unique to the alternator and will go
away with the alternator off. Where is
the battery in this airplane?
>In the mean time would a 16 gauge wire be
>appropriate to ground the alternator?
alternator? above you cited the regulator? If it's
the regulator then don't worry about it. A regulator
ground is never root cause of the constellation of
symptoms you've listed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Marty Hill <martyfnhill(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | GTR-200 garbeled reception |
I bought a project Pitts, went through the whole thing and have recently
started having radio issues. The basic problem is that reception
intermittently becomes "noisy" and garbled. There's never noise that
breaks through squelch; normal reception just gets loud, static-y and
unintelligible. (Just what you need immediately after takeoff or on a
go-around.) First problems didn't occur until there was about 10-15 hours
on the new electrical system and radio; the garbled reception seems to
happen more at high power than lower power, but again just not all the time.
Basic aircraft system:
IO-360 / Slick Magnetos
SD-8 PMG, B&C regulator and crowbar OVM
Earth-X battery
LW starter
KT-76A Xpnder and encoder
Headsets inc Noise-cancelling headset power supply
Combo clock/voltmeter/timer/G-meter
GTR-200
-Headset, Mic, Music inputs
GTR-200 troubleshooting:
-Re-seated radio (no effect)
-Tried multiple headsets (no effect)
Aircraft Systems troubleshooting:
-SD-8 - off (no effect) (fuse pulled/switch off) (no effect)
-Propeller RPM drastically reduced (most improvement)
-Transponder on/off (other than physical high-pitched tone from
transponder, no effect)
Airframe troubleshooting:
-Checked antenna connection at both ends (antenna cable made by local
avionics shop)
-checked P-leads and shielding connections at both ends
-Found ring terminal from starter ground-aircraft ground slightly loose,
new ring installed.
-Inspected ignition switch ground (left side of fuse), avionics ground
(right side of fuse, same station)
-Inspected jack connections and checked fiber washers installed
-Removed stereo input jack (non aviation) from panel, tucked away and
insulated it (no effect)
I talked to Garmin and based on the fact it was fine for the first few
hours, and it only tramples reception, never breaks through squelch that it
is probably a bad unit. Any other avenues of investigation are appreciated!
Thanks,
Marty Hill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Does case of ignition switch need to be grounded on |
Rotax 94
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group I have a ACS keyed ignition switch with out starter contact for my Rotax
914. I will be wiring as per Z16 where shields are grounded to engine near
by the ignition modules, then the shields are connected to the ground tab at the
ignition switch. To short the ignition wires to ground, path will be through
the shields to ground at the engine. The body case of the ACS ignition switch
is not connected to the ground tab where the shields will be connected.
My question: Rotax calls for the body case of the ignition switches to be grounded.
In my case do I need to ground the body case of ACS ignition switch? If the
answer is yes, can I ground it to the field of tabs on the cockpit side? Thx.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498850#498850
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mike(at)vision499.com> |
| Subject: | SLICKSTART Current Draw |
I have a Slickstart start unit. Manual calls for a 5 amp fuse but my fuse
blows at 5 and 7.5 amp, I have a 12V installation.
Have now installed a 10 amp fuse and all seems to be OK
What could cause the Slickstart to draw more current?
Should I be concerned?
Thanks
Mike
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SLICKSTART Current Draw |
That seems odd. Mine runs off a 3 amp fuse, including the start relay.
There was a bulletin some time back to only run one mag with it. I think
it had to do with making sure the left and right systems were completely
separate, not really a current draw issue. Maybe though...are you running
both mags off a single SlickStart?
--Dave
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:15 PM wrote:
> I have a Slickstart start unit. Manual calls for a 5 amp fuse but my fuse
> blows at 5 and 7.5 amp, I have a 12V installation.
>
>
> Have now installed a 10 amp fuse and all seems to be OK
>
>
> What could cause the Slickstart to draw more current?
>
>
> Should I be concerned?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_6967013605755777331_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mikepienaar09(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | SLICKSTART Current Draw |
No, I am only connected to the left mag. Right mag is switched off during e
ngine start.
Thanks
Mike
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list
-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of David Saylor
Sent: October 15, 2020 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SLICKSTART Current Draw
That seems odd. Mine runs off a 3 amp fuse, including the start relay.
There was a bulletin some time back to only run one mag with it. I think i
t had to do with making sure the left and right systems were completely sep
arate, not really a current draw issue. Maybe though...are you running bot
h mags off a single SlickStart?
--Dave
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:15 PM > wrote:
I have a Slickstart start unit. Manual calls for a 5 amp fuse but my fuse b
lows at 5 and 7.5 amp, I have a 12V installation.
Have now installed a 10 amp fuse and all seems to be OK
What could cause the Slickstart to draw more current?
Should I be concerned?
Thanks
Mike
Virus-free. www.avast.com
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | SLICKSTART Current Draw |
>On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:15 PM
><mike(at)vision499.com> wrote:
>I have a Slickstart start unit. Manual calls for a 5 amp fuse but my
>fuse blows at 5 and 7.5 amp, I have a 12V installation.
>
>Have now installed a 10 amp fuse and all seems to be OK
>
>What could cause the Slickstart to draw more current?
>
>Should I be concerned?
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike
Is this a new installation or does it have
a service record on this airplane? Excerpt
from installation manual:
SlickSTART receives input power from the switched positive terminal
of the starter motor,
and should be activated only when the starter motor is engaged. During engine
start, SlickSTART draws a maximum of 5 amperes at 6 to 25 volts (P/N SS1001)
and delivers a series of fast rising 375 volt maximum pulses to the primary
of the magneto coil. This voltage is stepped up in the secondary of the coil,
and is impressed across the spark plug electrodes through the magneto
distributor
and the high voltage harness.
I think there's something seriously amiss . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Does case of ignition switch need to be grounded |
on Rotax 94
At 07:01 PM 10/15/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group I have a ACS keyed ignition switch with out starter contact
>for my Rotax 914.
>I will be wiring as per Z16 where shields are grounded to engine
>near by the ignition
>modules, then the shields are connected to the ground tab at the
>ignition switch.
>To short the ignition wires to ground, path will be through the
>shields to ground at
>the engine. The body case of the ACS ignition switch is not
>connected to the ground
>tab where the shields will be connected.
>My question: Rotax calls for the body case of the ignition switches
>to be grounded.
>In my case do I need to ground the body case of ACS ignition switch?
>If the answer
>is yes, can I ground it to the field of tabs on the cockpit side? Thx. Ron P.
I can deduce no reason in physics for doing this.
All of the ACS 'electrics' are 'floating' on
the rear, non-conductive closeout. The case
has no electrical function.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GTR-200 garbeled reception |
At 04:16 PM 10/15/2020, you wrote:
>I bought a project Pitts,=C2 went through the
>whole thing and have recently started having
>radio issues.=C2 The basic problem is that
>reception intermittently becomes "noisy" and
>garbled.=C2 There's never noise that breaks
>through squelch; normal reception just gets
>loud, static-y and unintelligible.=C2 (Just what
>you need immediately after takeoff or on a
>go-around.)=C2 First problems didn't occur until
>there was about 10-15 hours on the new
>electrical system and radio; the garbled
>reception seems to happen more at high power
>than lower power, but again just not all the time.
>
>
>
>I talked to Garmin and based on the fact it was
>fine for the first few hours, and it only
>tramples reception, never breaks through squelch
>that it is probably a bad unit.=C2 Any other
>avenues of investigation are appreciated!
If I were tasked to duplicate the conditions
you've observed with 'adjustments' to stuff
outside the radio, I don't know where I would
start. I'm thinking this is internal to the
radio. Sounds like a vibration sensitive fault
inside.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GTR-200 garbeled reception |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
If Garmin is saying it is the unit, and it is under warranty, I would
get an RMA and send it in. Let them fix or replace it.
Kelly
On 10/16/2020 7:24 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 04:16 PM 10/15/2020, you wrote:
>> I bought a project Pitts, went through the whole thing and have
>> recently started having radio issues. The basic problem is that
>> reception intermittently becomes "noisy" and garbled. There's never
>> noise that breaks through squelch; normal reception just gets loud,
>> static-y and unintelligible. (Just what you need immediately after
>> takeoff or on a go-around.) First problems didn't occur until there
>> was about 10-15 hours on the new electrical system and radio; the
>> garbled reception seems to happen more at high power than lower power,
>> but again just not all the time.
>>
>>
>>
>> I talked to Garmin and based on the fact it was fine for the first few
>> hours, and it only tramples reception, never breaks through squelch
>> that it is probably a bad unit. Any other avenues of investigation
>> are appreciated!
>
> If I were tasked to duplicate the conditions
> you've observed with 'adjustments' to stuff
> outside the radio, I don't know where I would
> start. I'm thinking this is internal to the
> radio. Sounds like a vibration sensitive fault
> inside.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mikepienaar09(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | SLICKSTART Current Draw |
This is a new installation, it is a P/N SS1001 as per the manual. I bought
the unit unused from a person that had it on the shelf for more than 15
years, don't know if that will make a difference. Came in original packing
with manual etc. and I don't think it has been connected peviously.
It is connected to the left magneto on a LOM engine, it is powered directly
from the starter solenoid.
I powered the unit directly from the battery, removed the plugs and rotated
the engine by hand and it supplied a vey intense spark.
Hope this helps
Thanks
Mike
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: October 16, 2020 7:18 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SLICKSTART Current Draw
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:15 PM > wrote:
I have a Slickstart start unit. Manual calls for a 5 amp fuse but my fuse
blows at 5 and 7.5 amp, I have a 12V installation.
Have now installed a 10 amp fuse and all seems to be OK
What could cause the Slickstart to draw more current?
Should I be concerned?
Thanks
Mike
Is this a new installation or does it have
a service record on this airplane? Excerpt
from installation manual:
SlickSTART receives input power from the switched positive terminal of the
starter motor,
and should be activated only when the starter motor is engaged. During
engine
start, SlickSTART draws a maximum of 5 amperes at 6 to 25 volts (P/N SS1001)
and delivers a series of fast rising 375 volt maximum pulses to the primary
of the magneto coil. This voltage is stepped up in the secondary of the
coil,
and is impressed across the spark plug electrodes through the magneto
distributor
and the high voltage harness.
I think there's something seriously amiss . . .
Bob . . .
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mike(at)vision499.com> |
| Subject: | SLICKSTART Current Draw |
This may be a duplicate, I sent it this morning but did not see it in my
inbox This follows on my previous submission where my SlickStart is blowing
7.5amp fuse.
This is a new installation, it is a P/N SS1001 as per the manual. I bought
the unit unused from a person that had it on the shelf for more than 15
years, don't know if that will make a difference. Came in original packing
with manual etc. and I don't think it has been connected previously.
It is connected to the left magneto on a LOM engine, it is powered directly
from the starter solenoid.
I powered the unit directly from the battery, removed the plugs and rotated
the engine by hand and it supplied a vey intense spark.
Hope this helps
Thanks
Mike
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
Gentlemen,
In a Europa XS mono, I=99ve a RAM Performance engine based upon
the Subaru EA-81; it has a one-wire, 14 volt, 55 amp. Super Mini Denso
Racing Alternator with external load dump feature.
Under =9CDetails=9D on the =9Cgzmotorsports.com
<http://gzmotorsports.com/>=9D webpage for this alternator is the
following:
> What is a Alternator Load Dump?
>
> When an alternator is in operation and generating current, if the load
is suddenly disconnected (for example your main kill switch activated
disconnecting the battery from the alternator) the alternator voltage
can spike to as high as 120 volts DC and last for as long as 400ms.
Voltage spikes that high can damage sensitive electronics like MSD
Boxes, Data Loggers, Delay Boxes and other racing equipment. Alternators
with a load dump feature are designed to shunt that high voltage to
ground if the load is suddenly disconnected, protecting your
electronics.
>
Q1: Is this just another name for over voltage protection which is built
in or attached to an alternator?
Q2: Will the use of this alternator with LiFePO4 batteries pose any
special issues.
(I am in the process of swapping out 2 Odyssey PC680 batteries for
EarthX ETX680 batteries; with regarding to battery charging, I do know
that with the Lithium batteries I will need a charger which does not
charge above 14.6V., will automatically turns off when the battery is
fully charged (based on volts), and does not have a de-sulfate mode/deep
conditioning mode/pulse mode.)
I have followed Bob=99s Z-19 wiring schematic for single
alternator w/ two batteries.
Comments & Counsel will be much appreciated,
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
Hello Guys
Made some progress trouble shooting the LED strobe and wig wag noise. Ground
ed the regulator per the plan power installation directions with 16 ga. Wire
to the firewall battery ground. Also cleaned all the ground lugs at this po
int.
Ran the engine and have the same noise except when the alternator field is t
ripped shutting down the alternator.
Next step will be to confirm the =9CB=9D lead is tight on both e
nds. Any other suggestions?
Thanks Bernie
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 14, 2020, at 12:31 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB At 10:33 AM 10/14/2020, you wrote:
>> Thanks to all of you for the quick responses. I=99ll be back to the
airplane in a couple days.
>>
>> It is a 1956 G Bonanza.
>
> Hmmm . . . airplanes of this vintage are
> renowned for high resistance airframes which
> are fertilizer for ground loop issues.
>
>> Plane power alternator. The strobes and wig wag noise is an alternating p
ing/hum. The
>> pitot heat and landing lights are a steady hum. The LED beacon is quiet.
>
>
> Are all the 'hums' the same pitch and do they
> rise and fall with alternator rpm?
>
>> I did found an empty grounding lug on the regulator. All of the above ele
c. devices are grounded
>> to a ground buss which is stainless bolted to a bulkhead.
>
> . . . all this happens behind the cabin?
>
>> Older radios are grounded to various unknown places.
>> The noise goes away when I shut down the engine but haven't tried Turing o
ff the alternator with
>> the engine running.
>
> This is key . . . but I'm betting the noise
> is unique to the alternator and will go
> away with the alternator off. Where is
> the battery in this airplane?
>
>
>> In the mean time would a 16 gauge wire be appropriate to ground the alter
nator?
>
> alternator? above you cited the regulator? If it's
> the regulator then don't worry about it. A regulator
> ground is never root cause of the constellation of
> symptoms you've listed.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
Just thought of some others things to try to isolate the noise source.
With all the avionics on each one was turned off and on one at a time. No no
ise change
Changed phone plug from intercom Jack to aux jack that=99s wired direc
t to the com through the audio panel, noise remains
Audio panel off, no change noise remains
Changed volume on ADF, KX155, intercom, no change in the Volume of LED based
cyclic noise
The only way to eliminate the noise is to disable the alternator.
I can Check the integrity of the connection to the buss and the alternator B
. What else should be checked?
Bernie
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 16, 2020, at 7:32 PM, Bernie wrote:
>
> =EF=BBHello Guys
> Made some progress trouble shooting the LED strobe and wig wag noise. Grou
nded the regulator per the plan power installation directions with 16 ga. Wi
re to the firewall battery ground. Also cleaned all the ground lugs at this p
oint.
>
> Ran the engine and have the same noise except when the alternator field is
tripped shutting down the alternator.
>
> Next step will be to confirm the =9CB=9D lead is tight on both
ends. Any other suggestions?
>
> Thanks Bernie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>>> On Oct 14, 2020, at 12:31 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aero
electric.com> wrote:
>>>
>> =EF=BB At 10:33 AM 10/14/2020, you wrote:
>>> Thanks to all of you for the quick responses. I=99ll be back to th
e airplane in a couple days.
>>>
>>> It is a 1956 G Bonanza.
>>
>> Hmmm . . . airplanes of this vintage are
>> renowned for high resistance airframes which
>> are fertilizer for ground loop issues.
>>
>>> Plane power alternator. The strobes and wig wag noise is an alternating p
ing/hum. The
>>> pitot heat and landing lights are a steady hum. The LED beacon is quiet.
>>
>>
>> Are all the 'hums' the same pitch and do they
>> rise and fall with alternator rpm?
>>
>>> I did found an empty grounding lug on the regulator. All of the above el
ec. devices are grounded
>>> to a ground buss which is stainless bolted to a bulkhead.
>>
>> . . . all this happens behind the cabin?
>>
>>> Older radios are grounded to various unknown places.
>>> The noise goes away when I shut down the engine but haven't tried Turing
off the alternator with
>>> the engine running.
>>
>> This is key . . . but I'm betting the noise
>> is unique to the alternator and will go
>> away with the alternator off. Where is
>> the battery in this airplane?
>>
>>
>>> In the mean time would a 16 gauge wire be appropriate to ground the alte
rnator?
>>
>> alternator? above you cited the regulator? If it's
>> the regulator then don't worry about it. A regulator
>> ground is never root cause of the constellation of
>> symptoms you've listed.
>>
>> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GTR-200 garbeled reception |
| From: | "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com> |
Marty,
Have you tried it in another aircraft that has a GTR-200 that is working? I had
a similar problem with my GNS-430W. I dont know how similar these two radios
connectors are, but I verified my radio was ok by testing it in another airplane.
Then I started troubleshooting my installation. I thought I had it seated
ok, but it only takes but a tiny, tiny bit to be not seated well. At least in
mine anyway.
Check out the radio first, and go from there. Good luck.
Not an A&P,
Eric
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498878#498878
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
At 10:18 PM 10/16/2020, you wrote:
>Gentlemen,
>
>In a Europa XS mono, I=99ve a RAM Performance
>engine based upon the Subaru EA-81; it has a
>one-wire, 14 volt, 55 amp. Super Mini Denso
>Racing Alternator with external load dump feature.
>Under =9CDetails=9D on the
>=9C<http://gzmotorsports.com>gzmotorsports.com=9D
> webpage for this alternator is the following:
>>
>>What is a Alternator Load Dump?
>>
>>When an alternator is in operation and
>>generating current, if the load is suddenly
>>disconnected (for example your main kill switch
>>activated disconnecting the battery from the
>>alternator) the alternator voltage can spike to
>>as high as 120 volts DC and last for as long as
>>400ms. Voltage spikes that high can damage
>>sensitive electronics like MSD Boxes, Data
>>Loggers, Delay Boxes and other racing
>>equipment. Alternators with a load dump feature
>>are designed to shunt that high voltage to
>>ground if the load is suddenly disconnected, protecting your electronics.
See attached image captured from that site
>Q1: Is this just another name for over voltage
>protection which is built in or attached to an alternator?
>Q2: Will the use of this alternator with LiFePO4
>batteries pose any special issues.
>
>(I am in the process of swapping out 2 Odyssey
>PC680 batteries for EarthX ETX680 batteries;
>with regarding to battery charging, I do know
>that with the Lithium batteries I will need a
>charger which does not charge above 14.6V., will
>automatically turns off when the battery is
>fully charged (based on volts), and does not
>have a de-sulfate mode/deep conditioning mode/pulse mode.)
>
>I have followed Bob=99s Z-19 wiring schematic
>for single alternator w/ two batteries.
This is a smoke/mirrors description of what
I'll bet is a commercial-off-the shelf
alternator you can buy at AutoZone, et. als.
First, the term 'racing' applied to these machines
is mis-leading. First, who needs 55 or 100+ amps
of alternator to run their stock car or dirt track
racer? And 'dead battery' worries . . . really?
My son was into dirt-track entertainment about
20 years ago . . . some of those guys would
start their cars with a jump-battery and run
alternator only just to get 20+ pounds off
the front end of the car.
I seriously doubt that anything extra-ordinary
is done to those alternators to make them
more suited to 'racing' as opposed to service
in earth moving machines or family chariots.
That 'load dump' thing is another monster-
sleeping-under-the-bed meme. The promotion
admits that to experience that bunch-o-volts
excursion of bus voltage, you gotta have
simultaneous battery disconnect AND a
heavily battery-loaded alternator
(i.e. carrying LIGHT system loads plus recharging a
heavily discharged battery). How often
does that happen? We wire our airplanes
such that alternators are turned ON LAST
and OFF FIRST. Same thing with 99.9% of
all TC S.E. aircraft.
But what about that 'load dump protection
feature'? See that little red gizmo attached
to the alternator b-lead terminal? That's
a metal oxide varistor. It's a technology
widely used for LOW ENERGY transient
suppression for sources with rather high
source impedance. These things are used
by the tens of millions in all manner
of consumer products to help stand off
indirect effects of lighting strike to
power lines and inductively driven transients
in consumer electronics and vehicles. Those
'surge protected' plug strips hanging
on pegs at Walmart? They've got a couple
MOVs in 'em.
Remember the triad of competent engineering?
Properties of materials, energy management
and refinement of process. Let's go look
at an exemplar, low voltage MOV that just
might seem attractive to a starry-eyed
alternator entrepreneur:
In the attached photo we see the MOV
'load dump' protector. I would judge it
to be no bigger than 20mm diameter. Referring
to the attached catalog excerpt, a 20P17A
MOV from Littlefuse can stand of ONE, 35
Joule (watt second) pulse for 2 MILLISECONDS.
So peak power is 35/0.002 or 17,500 Watts . . .
okay for a little tickle from that lightning
stroke down the street but it better not
last long.
Okay, the advert for this alternator speaks
to outputs of up to 100V for 400 MILLISECONDS.
Hmmm . . . energy management time.
Assume the MOV strives to clamp off the 55A
rated alternator at about 40 volts (2200
watts). How long would this 35 watt-second
device last while trying to grunt 2200 watts?
You deduced it . . . not long.
Some of you graybeards may recall a fellow
back about 1990 that was offering a similar
'over voltage protection' on his alternators
in the form of a molded plastic, 1 Watt
zener tied from b-lead to case ground.
A reader of these pages posted an event
report wherein he discovered that his ov
protection was AWOL . . . it just disappeared.
Two wires were left dangling from the terminals
but the entire diode had vanished.
His project had experienced a transient
event that caused the po' little zener
to grunt several magnitudes more energy
than it was designed for . . . POOF!
On a different but related matter, the
alternator under discussion is offered as
a 1-Wire device. These products are designed
for the automotive world. Hook the b-lead
to the battery. Electronics in the regulator
sees the rotor is not turning . . . field
supply is shut off.
Start engine, rotor spins, field excitation
comes alive and KilloJoules of energy become
available for all manner of good things.
But you do not have positive, external
control of these alternators. Smoke in the
cockpit . . . tough toenail . . . can't
shut the alternator off without stopping
the engine. Perhaps no big deal in your
ground-bound machine . . . not so much
at 8,500 feet and 10+ minutes away from
wheels-on-the-ground.
If your desire is to exploit the great
bargains in COTS alternators, get one from
your local Smiley Jack's Autoparts Emporium
and plan on modifying for external regulation
and ABSOLUTE CREW CONTROL OF the machine's
output which INCLUDES AUTOMATIC OV PROTECTION.
Not hard to do . . . and by the way ignore
that load dump floobydust . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Try to trace the path from the alternator case to the negative terminal
of the battery.
Ground strap between engine and airframe?
As Bob pointed out, that old airframe may not provide a good ground
path. If possible, temporarily for testing, a good size wire from
alternator to battery negative terminal.
Perhaps another way of looking at it: is the ground path to the radio in
any way carrying a current between alternator and battery ground?
Finn
On 10/17/2020 12:47 AM, Bernie wrote:
> Just thought of some others things to try to isolate the noise source.
> With all the avionics on each one was turned off and on one at a time.
> No noise change
> Changed phone plug from intercom Jack to aux jack thats wired direct
> to the com through the audio panel, noise remains
> Audio panel off, no change noise remains
> Changed volume on ADF, KX155, intercom, no change in the Volume of LED
> based cyclic noise
>
> The only way to eliminate the noise is to disable the alternator.
>
> I can Check the integrity of the connection to the buss and the
> alternator B. What else should be checked?
>
> Bernie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 16, 2020, at 7:32 PM, Bernie wrote:
>>
>> Hello Guys
>> Made some progress trouble shooting the LED strobe and wig wag noise.
>> Grounded the regulator per the plan power installation directions
>> with 16 ga. Wire to the firewall battery ground. Also cleaned all the
>> ground lugs at this point.
>>
>> Ran the engine and have the same noise except when the alternator
>> field is tripped shutting down the alternator.
>>
>> Next step will be to confirm the B lead is tight on both ends. Any
>> other suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks Bernie
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Oct 14, 2020, at 12:31 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> At 10:33 AM 10/14/2020, you wrote:
>>>> Thanks to all of you for the quick responses. Ill be back to the
>>>> airplane in a couple days.
>>>>
>>>> It is a 1956 G Bonanza.
>>>
>>> Hmmm . . . airplanes of this vintage are
>>> renowned for high resistance airframes which
>>> are fertilizer for ground loop issues.
>>>
>>>> Plane power alternator. The strobes and wig wag noise is an
>>>> alternating ping/hum. The
>>>> pitot heat and landing lights are a steady hum. The LED beacon is
>>>> quiet.
>>>
>>>
>>> Are all the 'hums' the same pitch and do they
>>> rise and fall with alternator rpm?
>>>
>>>> I did found an empty grounding lug on the regulator. All of the
>>>> above elec. devices are grounded
>>>> to a ground buss which is stainless bolted to a bulkhead.
>>>
>>> . . . all this happens behind the cabin?
>>>
>>>> Older radios are grounded to various unknown places.
>>>> The noise goes away when I shut down the engine but haven't tried
>>>> Turing off the alternator with
>>>> the engine running.
>>>
>>> This is key . . . but I'm betting the noise
>>> is unique to the alternator and will go
>>> away with the alternator off. Where is
>>> the battery in this airplane?
>>>
>>>
>>>> In the mean time would a 16 gauge wire be appropriate to ground the
>>>> alternator?
>>>
>>> alternator? above you cited the regulator? If it's
>>> the regulator then don't worry about it. A regulator
>>> ground is never root cause of the constellation of
>>> symptoms you've listed.
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
At 10:18 PM 10/16/2020, you wrote:
>Gentlemen,
>
>In a Europa XS mono, I=99ve a RAM Performance
>engine based upon the Subaru EA-81; it has a
>one-wire, 14 volt, 55 amp. Super Mini Denso
>Racing Alternator with external load dump feature.
>Under =9CDetails=9D on the
>=9C<http://gzmotorsports.com>gzmotorsports.com=9D
> webpage for this alternator is the following:
>>
>>What is a Alternator Load Dump?
>>
>>When an alternator is in operation and
>>generating current, if the load is suddenly
>>disconnected (for example your main kill switch
>>activated disconnecting the battery from the
>>alternator) the alternator voltage can spike to
>>as high as 120 volts DC and last for as long as
>>400ms. Voltage spikes that high can damage
>>sensitive electronics like MSD Boxes, Data
>>Loggers, Delay Boxes and other racing
>>equipment. Alternators with a load dump feature
>>are designed to shunt that high voltage to
>>ground if the load is suddenly disconnected, protecting your electronics.
See attached image captured from that site
>Q1: Is this just another name for over voltage
>protection which is built in or attached to an alternator?
>Q2: Will the use of this alternator with LiFePO4
>batteries pose any special issues.
>
>(I am in the process of swapping out 2 Odyssey
>PC680 batteries for EarthX ETX680 batteries;
>with regarding to battery charging, I do know
>that with the Lithium batteries I will need a
>charger which does not charge above 14.6V., will
>automatically turns off when the battery is
>fully charged (based on volts), and does not
>have a de-sulfate mode/deep conditioning mode/pulse mode.)
>
>I have followed Bob=99s Z-19 wiring schematic
>for single alternator w/ two batteries.
This is a smoke/mirrors description of what
I'll bet is a commercial-off-the shelf
alternator you can buy at AutoZone, et. als.
First, the term 'racing' applied to these machines
is mis-leading. First, who needs 55 or 100+ amps
of alternator to run their stock car or dirt track
racer? And 'dead battery' worries . . . really?
My son was into dirt-track entertainment about
20 years ago . . . some of those guys would
start their cars with a jump-battery and run
alternator only just to get 20+ pounds off
the front end of the car.
I seriously doubt that anything extra-ordinary
is done to those alternators to make them
more suited to 'racing' as opposed to service
in earth moving machines or family chariots.
That 'load dump' thing is another monster-
sleeping-under-the-bed meme. The promotion
admits that to experience that bunch-o-volts
excursion of bus voltage, you gotta have
simultaneous battery disconnect AND a
heavily battery-loaded alternator
(i.e. carrying LIGHT system loads plus recharging a
heavily discharged battery). How often
does that happen? We wire our airplanes
such that alternators are turned ON LAST
and OFF FIRST. Same thing with 99.9% of
all TC S.E. aircraft.
But what about that 'load dump protection
feature'? See that little red gizmo attached
to the alternator b-lead terminal? That's
a metal oxide varistor. It's a technology
widely used for LOW ENERGY transient
suppression for sources with rather high
source impedance. These things are used
by the tens of millions in all manner
of consumer products to help stand off
indirect effects of lighting strike to
power lines and inductively driven transients
in consumer electronics and vehicles. Those
'surge protected' plug strips hanging
on pegs at Walmart? They've got a couple
MOVs in 'em.
Remember the triad of competent engineering?
Properties of materials, energy management
and refinement of process. Let's go look
at an exemplar, low voltage MOV that just
might seem attractive to a starry-eyed
alternator entrepreneur:
In the attached photo we see the MOV
'load dump' protector. I would judge it
to be no bigger than 20mm diameter. Referring
to the attached catalog excerpt, a 20P17A
MOV from Littlefuse can stand of ONE, 35
Joule (watt second) pulse for 2 MILLISECONDS.
So peak power is 35/0.002 or 17,500 Watts . . .
okay for a little tickle from that lightning
stroke down the street but it better not
last long.
Okay, the advert for this alternator speaks
to outputs of up to 100V for 400 MILLISECONDS.
Hmmm . . . energy management time.
Assume the MOV strives to clamp off the 55A
rated alternator at about 40 volts (2200
watts). How long would this 35 watt-second
device last while trying to grunt 2200 watts?
You deduced it . . . not long.
Some of you graybeards may recall a fellow
back about 1990 that was offering a similar
'over voltage protection' on his alternators
in the form of a molded plastic, 1 Watt
zener tied from b-lead to case ground.
A reader of these pages posted an event
report wherein he discovered that his ov
protection was AWOL . . . it just disappeared.
Two wires were left dangling from the terminals
but the entire diode had vanished.
His project had experienced a transient
event that caused the po' little zener
to grunt several magnitudes more energy
than it was designed for . . . POOF!
On a different but related matter, the
alternator under discussion is offered as
a 1-Wire device. These products are designed
for the automotive world. Hook the b-lead
to the battery. Electronics in the regulator
sees the rotor is not turning . . . field
supply is shut off.
Start engine, rotor spins, field excitation
comes alive and KilloJoules of energy become
available for all manner of good things.
But you do not have positive, external
control of these alternators. Smoke in the
cockpit . . . tough toenail . . . can't
shut the alternator off without stopping
the engine. Perhaps no big deal in your
ground-bound machine . . . not so much
at 8,500 feet and 10+ minutes away from
wheels-on-the-ground.
If your desire is to exploit the great
bargains in COTS alternators, get one from
your local Smiley Jack's Autoparts Emporium
and plan on modifying for external regulation
and ABSOLUTE CREW CONTROL OF the machine's
output which INCLUDES AUTOMATIC OV PROTECTION.
Not hard to do . . . and by the way ignore
that load dump floobydust . . .
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
Bobthank you for addressing my questions; you wrote:
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 5:28 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
>
> If your desire is to exploit the great
> bargains in COTS alternators, get one from
> your local Smiley Jack's Autoparts Emporium
> and plan on modifying for external regulation
> and ABSOLUTE CREW CONTROL OF the machine's
> output which INCLUDES AUTOMATIC OV PROTECTION.
As I think I mentioned, my engine came with the 55 amp. Denso
alternatorhaving it is not the result of my seeking great
bargains in COTS alternators. I do recall reading on the topic of OV
protection (without really understanding), and the topic has come up
because of what I=99m learning about LiFePO4 batteries and their
sensitivity to voltage spikes. So thank you for bringing the issue front
and center.
I trust that consuting my AeroElectric Connection will reveal just how
this alternator can be modified =9Cfor external regulation and
absolute crew control of the machine=99s output which includes
automatic OV protection.
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Here is a link to converting an alternator to external voltage regulation:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/One-Wire_Alternator_Conversion.pdf
Here is a link to a Kitplanes article about converting an alternator:
https://www.kitplanes.com/rewiring-a-nippondenso-alternator/
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498883#498883
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
>As I think I mentioned, my engine came with the
>55 amp. Denso alternator=85having it is not the
>result of my seeking great bargains in COTS
>alternators. I do recall reading on the topic of
>OV protection (without really understanding),
>and the topic has come up because of what I=99m
>learning about LiFePO4 batteries and their
>sensitivity to voltage spikes. So thank you for
>bringing the issue front and center.
Good show. LiFePO4 batteries with battery management
systems are no more 'sensitive to spikes' than any
SLVA battery. That's what the BMS is for. Also,
the term 'spike' is never defined in terms of amplitude,
duration, waveshape and/or source impedance.
The DC supply of ALL vehicles is rife with NOISE of
various characterizations. 99.9% of people who
look at plots of those noises are inclined to
say, "Hey Martha . . . lookit all those spikes".
Keep in mind that people who are competing in the
lithium cranking battery market are striving to
make their product just as plug-n-play as they
can for replacing SLVA. When assessing suitability
of a marriage between your airplane and any
LiFePO4 product . . . check the engineering system
integration data sheet where limits are spelled
out in measurable physical quantities. The term
'spike' is not measurable and should be ignored
unless accompanied with detailed explanation.
I've not found any reason to be concerned about
dropping LiFePO4 products into a legacy SVLA
slot and adjusting the regulator for 14.2 volts.
>I trust that consuting my AeroElectric
>Connection will reveal just how this alternator
>can be modified =9Cfor external regulation and
>absolute crew control of the machine=99s output
>which includes automatic OV protection.
No, too many variables to cover in that
document but as Joe cited, here are some
excellent resources on the 'net. Keep
us apprised of your progress and potholes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graeme Coates and Sharon Beaman <coatbeam(at)melbpc.org.au> |
| Subject: | Alternator modify to external regulation |
For easy mods to alternator that are completely reversable look at
Kitplanes 2019 November p36-39.
Graeme Coates
Europa Tri-gear
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator modify to external regulation |
At 02:20 AM 10/18/2020, you wrote:
>Beaman
>
>For easy mods to alternator that are completely reversable look at
>Kitplanes 2019 November p36-39.
>
>Graeme Coates
>
>Europa Tri-gear
I saw that . . . thanks for reminding us!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | "Load Dump" revisited |
The term is part of the vernacular of both
automotive and aviation worlds but they
have similar but not equal definitions.
The term is somewhat self explanatory . . .
a big alternator load is suddenly removed.
The resulting event is something akin to
the ice cream social game of tug-o-war.
Two opposing but relatively equal forces
compete with each striving to satisfy
disparate goals in physics. In this case,
the ALTERNATOR, under command of a regulator,
works within its limitations to maintain
the system bus at some pre-set voltage.
The totality of system loads team up to
comprise a total LOAD on the alternator.
Their demand tends to pull bus voltage down
while the alternator/regulator is working
to sustain the bus at the regulator's
set point.
At such time that total LOAD is very high,
sometimes equal to the alternator name-plate
limit, when have the electrical equivalent of
two teams of individuals pulling on a rope
from each end.
It's easy to visualize the prospects for
a sudden change of equilibrium if the LOAD
should suddenly reduce . . . perhaps even go
to zero. The rope breaks, load is zero. Half
of a crew looses traction and fall, the load
is greatly reduced. In either case, the
tension impressed on the 'alternator' side
goes down. The alternator was already balls-to-
the wall before the reduction. Sudden release
of tension allows the bus voltage to rise
suddenly and before the regulator's response
dynamic can react, the voltage will rise quickly
to some limit defined by (1) percentage of
load reduction and (2) time it takes for the
regulator to regain control.
Now, here's where the automotive and aviation
communities diverge a little when considering
the cause/effects of a load-dump.
When one reads the literature for mitigating load
dump in cars, virtually every condition speaks to
disconnection of the battery as worst case root
cause of the voltage transient. For example, suppose
you've had a hard start on the vehicle and the battery
is flagging. The car starts and the alternator rises
to the call and begins the task of recharging the battery.
It's daytime and weather mild . . . no headlights, no
HVAC motors . . . the BATTERY comprises the greatest
load on the system because it's being demanding
replenished from a largely discharged state.
Now, unhook the battery and . . . you got it . . .
the alternator is now lightly loaded by system accessories
and the alternator/regulator overshoot/recovery characteristics
prevail. Further, the system loads are light and the
PRIMARY load-dump mitigator, the battery, is out to lunch.
This is the automotive description of the perfect
storm of load dumps and yes, it's the worst
case scenario for a load dump in a battery-alternator
DC power system.
But the really BIG question is, how does that battery
become unhooked? Pretty rare event on a vehicle-by-vehicle
case . . . but there are tens of millions of them out
there. It's kinda like lightning strikes . . . doesn't
happen often but risk is not zero and the quality of
workmanship for battery installation and maintenance
is not as rigorous as in airplanes.
In airplanes, we have the perfect configuration for
generating the ultimate load dump: the battery contactor(s).
In most piston aircraft, DC power controls are configured
for BATTERY ON BEFORE ALTERNATOR and ALTERNATOR OFF
BEFORE BATTERY. It's the legacy split-rocker on many
production aircraft and the DP3P(progressive) toggle
switch in a lot of OBAM aircraft.
Except for conditions arising from poor craftsmanship
or maintenance, the battery is pretty tightly
wedded to the bus. There ARE still rare disconnects
with root cause in contactor failure . . . but
in the whole constellation of contactor failures,
what proportion occur during a heavy battery recharge
condition?
Aviation's load-dump events have been extensively
studied over the last 100 years. MIL-STD-704 and
DO-160 qualifications combined with sundry TSO
requirements suggest that power generation and
control systems be designed and qualified to
limit load dump excursions to 40/80 Volts (14/28
Volt systems). Accessories are designed and qualified
to stand off those same transients.
Just how the system designers choose to meet those
goals is not dictated. They may use
a sprinkling of transient voltage suppressors
or simply configure limit/withstand those levels
by design.
In any case, the highest risk condition is
set up by an inadvertent disconnect of a badly
discharged battery. Folks who travel on the
ground are many times more likely to experience
this than folks who fly . . . who are supposed
to KNOW better!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "Load Dump" revisited |
Thank you Sir...illucidating as usual!
On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 21:32 Robert L. Nuckolls, III, <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> The term is part of the vernacular of both
> automotive and aviation worlds but they
> have similar but not equal definitions.
>
> The term is somewhat self explanatory . . .
> a big alternator load is suddenly removed.
> The resulting event is something akin to
> the ice cream social game of tug-o-war.
>
> Two opposing but relatively equal forces
> compete with each striving to satisfy
> disparate goals in physics. In this case,
> the ALTERNATOR, under command of a regulator,
> works within its limitations to maintain
> the system bus at some pre-set voltage.
>
> The totality of system loads team up to
> comprise a total LOAD on the alternator.
> Their demand tends to pull bus voltage down
> while the alternator/regulator is working
> to sustain the bus at the regulator's
> set point.
>
> At such time that total LOAD is very high,
> sometimes equal to the alternator name-plate
> limit, when have the electrical equivalent of
> two teams of individuals pulling on a rope
> from each end.
>
> It's easy to visualize the prospects for
> a sudden change of equilibrium if the LOAD
> should suddenly reduce . . . perhaps even go
> to zero. The rope breaks, load is zero. Half
> of a crew looses traction and fall, the load
> is greatly reduced. In either case, the
> tension impressed on the 'alternator' side
> goes down. The alternator was already balls-to-
> the wall before the reduction. Sudden release
> of tension allows the bus voltage to rise
> suddenly and before the regulator's response
> dynamic can react, the voltage will rise quickly
> to some limit defined by (1) percentage of
> load reduction and (2) time it takes for the
> regulator to regain control.
>
> Now, here's where the automotive and aviation
> communities diverge a little when considering
> the cause/effects of a load-dump.
>
> When one reads the literature for mitigating load
> dump in cars, virtually every condition speaks to
> disconnection of the battery as worst case root
> cause of the voltage transient. For example, suppose
> you've had a hard start on the vehicle and the battery
> is flagging. The car starts and the alternator rises
> to the call and begins the task of recharging the battery.
>
> It's daytime and weather mild . . . no headlights, no
> HVAC motors . . . the BATTERY comprises the greatest
> load on the system because it's being demanding
> replenished from a largely discharged state.
>
> Now, unhook the battery and . . . you got it . . .
> the alternator is now lightly loaded by system accessories
> and the alternator/regulator overshoot/recovery characteristics
> prevail. Further, the system loads are light and the
> PRIMARY load-dump mitigator, the battery, is out to lunch.
>
> This is the automotive description of the perfect
> storm of load dumps and yes, it's the worst
> case scenario for a load dump in a battery-alternator
> DC power system.
>
> But the really BIG question is, how does that battery
> become unhooked? Pretty rare event on a vehicle-by-vehicle
> case . . . but there are tens of millions of them out
> there. It's kinda like lightning strikes . . . doesn't
> happen often but risk is not zero and the quality of
> workmanship for battery installation and maintenance
> is not as rigorous as in airplanes.
>
> In airplanes, we have the perfect configuration for
> generating the ultimate load dump: the battery contactor(s).
> In most piston aircraft, DC power controls are configured
> for BATTERY ON BEFORE ALTERNATOR and ALTERNATOR OFF
> BEFORE BATTERY. It's the legacy split-rocker on many
> production aircraft and the DP3P(progressive) toggle
> switch in a lot of OBAM aircraft.
>
> Except for conditions arising from poor craftsmanship
> or maintenance, the battery is pretty tightly
> wedded to the bus. There ARE still rare disconnects
> with root cause in contactor failure . . . but
> in the whole constellation of contactor failures,
> what proportion occur during a heavy battery recharge
> condition?
>
> Aviation's load-dump events have been extensively
> studied over the last 100 years. MIL-STD-704 and
> DO-160 qualifications combined with sundry TSO
> requirements suggest that power generation and
> control systems be designed and qualified to
> limit load dump excursions to 40/80 Volts (14/28
> Volt systems). Accessories are designed and qualified
> to stand off those same transients.
>
> Just how the system designers choose to meet those
> goals is not dictated. They may use
> a sprinkling of transient voltage suppressors
> or simply configure limit/withstand those levels
> by design.
>
> In any case, the highest risk condition is
> set up by an inadvertent disconnect of a badly
> discharged battery. Folks who travel on the
> ground are many times more likely to experience
> this than folks who fly . . . who are supposed
> to KNOW better!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z102 w/AEC9005 |
| From: | "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
Trying again; I posted this ten days ago with no response...
> I'm building a Kitfox that will probably use an auto-based engine conversion.
I like the look of your Z102 architecture for its redundancy in engine electrical
supply, as well as the auxiliary bus for pre-flight ground activities. But,
I have a couple of questions:
>
> 1. Am I correct in my understanding that:
> a) the auxiliary battery is normally paralleled with the main battery during
engine start *and* during normal operation (bus voltage >13V) so that it can be
recharged by the alternator?
> b) the auxiliary battery will be isolated to engine-related functions only, if
the bus falls below 13V?
>
> 2. The Z102 schematic shows a START CMD signal from the push-to-start switch
to an AEC90XX Aux Battery Management Module (ABMM). The only thing like this that
I can find is your AEC9005 series of Low Voltage Warning and ABMM devices.
However, the AEC9005 schematic in this document...
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/LV_Warn_Fab_and_Install.pdf
>
> ...does not include an input for the START CMD signal. Is there another ABMM
design on the drawing board, or does Z102 contemplate an iteration of AEC9005
with the addition of the START CMD facility? If the latter, then is it safe to
assume that START CMD is simply a gate drive signal to the FET, diode isolated
from the comparator output?
>
> 3. On the AEC9005 schematic linked above, what is the purpose of Zener diode
Z118? Is it to protect the FET against excessive V(d-s) in case the contactor's
flyback diode fails to perform, or is missing?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498899#498899
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z102 w/AEC9005 |
At 10:30 AM 10/19/2020, you wrote:
Trying again; I posted this ten days ago with no response...
Sorry 'bout that . . my bad.
I've been pondering the 'step up' from Z101 to
Z102 . . . not sure I'm all that enthusiastic
about it.
Help us understand the motivation for an
AUX battery added specifically to support
the engine.
Your total electrical needs for comfortable
flight are predictable and/or measurable.
The amount of energy contained in a battery
is similarly known.
If you split duties of the two batteries
for alternator-out operations, then your
endurance is set by whichever battery
gives up first.
Z101 offers dual feed bus structures with
opportunity for load shedding to a predictable
level. THAT number drives the battery
selection and maintenance protocol.
That's one of the reasons I discontinued the
IBMM . . . $cost of ownership$ for a second
battery is significant especially when it's
not a quantum boost to system reliability.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | The case for "gas tightness" |
See:
https://tinyurl.com/y39dpm9n
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AEC9005 IBMM and LV Warning Module |
Eric, to answer your questoins:
> > 1. Am I correct in my understanding that:
> > a) the auxiliary battery is normally paralleled with the main
> battery during
> > engine start *and* during normal operation (bus voltage >13V) so
> that it can be
> > recharged by the alternator?
The AEC9005 IBMM/LVWarn product was put on the
market about 2003 time-frame in response to
desires to automatically support the little
auxiliary battery recommended by LightSpeed.
Since detection of an LV condition is primary
to the functionality of the IBMM . . . it was
a simple matter to include a flasher to drive
a LV Warning lamp as well.
Over the 2003 to 2012 market-run, we sold
about 168 completed assemblies and a hand-full
of kits.
> > b) the auxiliary battery will be isolated to engine-related
> functions only, if the bus falls below 13V?
The idea was to offer automatic isolation of the
auxiliary ignition battery simultaneously with
annunciation of low voltage.
> > 2. The Z102 schematic shows a START CMD signal from the
> push-to-start switch to an
> > AEC90XX Aux Battery Management Module (ABMM).
Z102 is a work in progress. I snatched a
drawing for the AEC9005 to poke into that
slot knowing that the functionality would
require upgrading to accept a signal from
the starter system to keep the contactor
closed during start.
That activity was yet to be accomplished.
The original IBMM did not have a flasher for
driving an LED. It was never produced. Found
the genesis drawing from 1999 which I've modified
to include a lv override input from the starter
push button. Exploit as you see fit.
> The only thing like this that I can find is your AEC9005 series of
> Low Voltage Warning and ABMM devices. However, the AEC9005
> schematic in this document...
> >
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/LV_Warn_Fab_and_Install.pdf
> >
> > ...does not include an input for the START CMD signal. Is there
> another ABMM design
> > on the drawing board, or does Z102 contemplate an iteration of
> AEC9005 with the addition
> > of the START CMD facility? If the latter, then is it safe to
> assume that START CMD is
> > simply a gate drive signal to the FET, diode isolated from the
> comparator output?
> >
Yeah, that would make it work as depicted . . .
> > 3. On the AEC9005 schematic linked above, what is the purpose of
> Zener diode Z118? Is
> > it to protect the FET against excessive V(d-s) in case the
> contactor's flyback
> > diode fails to perform, or is missing?
Correct. The AEC9005 was a stand-alone device that
might have been paired with an external relay that
did not have coil suppression installed. Better to
have TWO such devices than NO such devices!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GTR-200 garbeled reception |
Ditto on Eric's suggestion....
Sometimes the "chassis" is mounted a tad too far back from the equipment
panel front surface. When the radio is slid into the chassis some of the
many pins don't connect well to the back chassis connectors. Solution is
to remount the chassis by pulling it forward before securing it with its
mounting screws.....
D
On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 6:47 AM eschlanser wrote:
> eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
>
> Marty,
>
> Have you tried it in another aircraft that has a GTR-200 that is working?
> I had a similar problem with my GNS-430W. I don=99t know how simila
r these
> two radios=99 connectors are, but I verified my radio was ok by tes
ting it in
> another airplane. Then I started troubleshooting my installation. I thoug
ht
> I had it seated ok, but it only takes but a tiny, tiny bit to be not seat
ed
> well. At least in mine anyway.
> Check out the radio first, and go from there. Good luck.
>
> Not an A&P,
> Eric
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498878#498878
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AEC9005 IBMM and LV Warning Module |
P.S. the calibration resistors have been adjusted
to raise the L.V. Warn set-point to 13.5 volts.
This will make the finished assembly compatible with
BOTH LiFePO4 and SVLA batteries.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z102 w/AEC9005 |
| From: | "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> Sorry 'bout that . . my bad.
Thanks, Bob, no worries. There's been a lot of signal here lately, so it was easy
to fall below the noise floor!
> I've been pondering the 'step up' from Z101 to Z102 . . . not sure I'm all that
enthusiastic about it.
>
> Help us understand the motivation for an AUX battery added specifically to support
the engine.
The presence of Z102, and its labeling for "automotive conversions" led me to believe
that it was the current state-of-the-art for aircraft so equipped. I'm
in the early planning stages at this point, so I'm happy to entertain other ideas.
The plane will be a day/night VFR-only aircraft. I plan to use it for back-country
flying, so keeping the starter spinning at off-airport locations and the
engine running over expanses of hostile terrain are primary concerns. The plane
will have LED lights, a transponder, an ADS-B receiver, a single comm radio,
one EFIS screen, and perhaps a lightweight, low power multi-function backup
instrument. I would view minimum equipment as engine, lights, comm and backup
instrument.
The engine I'm considering (AeroMomentum AM15 (https://aeromomentum.com/am15.html),
based on a Suzuki 1.5L inline 4-cyl) ships with a single 65A (probably Denso
(https://aeromomentum.com/images/Alternator.JPG)) alternator. I don't yet
know whether it's supplied as an internally or externally regulated unit, but
I suspect that it will need modification. I also don't know if the engine has
a spot for a second alternator, but given the absence of a power steering pump
or AC compressor, it's probably feasible to mount one.
> Your total electrical needs for comfortable flight are predictable and/or measurable.
The amount of energy contained in a battery is similarly known.
>
> If you split duties of the two batteries for alternator-out operations, then
your endurance is set by whichever battery gives up first.
Indeed. My working assumption was that Z102 had identical batteries supporting
separate, smaller loads so that the time-to-darkness-and-quiet would be pushed
farther into the future than with a single battery of similar capacity. Since
the engine-only electrical load -- especially at a constant cruise power setting
-- would be very predictable, I suspect that you would be able to make an
eerily accurate estimate of remaining fan-assisted flight time.
That said, a second alternator extends endurance to the bottom of the fuel tank,
doesn't necessarily require a turn for home, and given my simple VFR equipment,
would likely impose no requirement to load-shed.
> Z101 offers dual feed bus structures with opportunity for load shedding to a
predictable level. THAT number drives the battery selection and maintenance protocol.
>
> That's one of the reasons I discontinued the IBMM . . . $cost of ownership$ for
a second battery is significant especially when it's not a quantum boost to
system reliability.
I see. So, given the reliability of batteries in general, and the simplicity of
Z101 vs Z102, it sounds like you're leaning toward a recommendation for Z101
with a battery sized and maintained to achieve worst case engine-off pre-flight
activities followed by spirited engine starts. The single battery would not
be expected to support alternator-out flight loads for any longer than it takes
the pilot to identify the problem and flip the AUX ALT switch. Operation
in this condition would be assured by pre-flight testing of the standby alternator/regulator.
Is that more-or-less accurate?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498916#498916
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "fklein(at)orcasonline.com" <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
Thanks Bobso many rabbit holes
And Thanks Graeme for the ref. to the Kitplanes articlejust the
ticket, though I=99d never imagined myself opening the innards of
an alternator.
Best,
Fred
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 8:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
>
>>
>> I trust that consuting my AeroElectric Connection will reveal just
how this alternator can be modified =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Cfor external
regulation and absolute crew control of the machine=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s
output which includes automatic OV protection.
>
> No, too many variables to cover in that
> document but as Joe cited, here are some
> excellent resources on the 'net. Keep
> us apprised of your progress and potholes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fklein(at)orcasonline.com |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
And thank you Joe G. as well !!
*****
Thanks Bobso many rabbit holes
And Thanks Graeme for the ref. to the Kitplanes articlejust the
ticket, though I=99d never imagined myself opening the innards of
an alternator.
Best,
Fred
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 8:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>
wrote:
>
>>
>> I trust that consuting my AeroElectric Connection will reveal just
how this alternator can be modified =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Cfor external
regulation and absolute crew control of the machine=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s
output which includes automatic OV protection.
>
> No, too many variables to cover in that
> document but as Joe cited, here are some
> excellent resources on the 'net. Keep
> us apprised of your progress and potholes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2 <rd2(at)dejazzd.com> |
| Subject: | narco DME 890 display |
I am looking for any suggestions how to repair a Narco DME 890 display.
The unit is in good working condition, but several days ago 2 digits of the 3 reading
the frequency went dark.Is the display an array or separate components?
Does anyone know of a suitable replacement for the display?Any thoughts would
be appreciated. ThanksRumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fklein(at)orcasonline.com |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
And thank you Joe G. as well !!
*****
Thanks Bobso many rabbit holes
And Thanks Graeme for the ref. to the Kitplanes articlejust the
ticket, though I=99d never imagined myself opening the innards of
an alternator.
Best,
Fred
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 8:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>
wrote:
>
>>
>> I trust that consuting my AeroElectric Connection will reveal just
how this alternator can be modified =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Cfor external
regulation and absolute crew control of the machine=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s
output which includes automatic OV protection.
>
> No, too many variables to cover in that
> document but as Joe cited, here are some
> excellent resources on the 'net. Keep
> us apprised of your progress and potholes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Grounding shielded wire 1/4 from one side? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group I have a question about running a shielded wire to ground. On my Rotax
914 it has 2 shielded wires going from the Ducati ignition modules to the ignition
ACS switch. The shield is connected to the ignition switch and is used to
ground the Ducati ignition modules. Where the shielded wires go into the ignition
connectors things get pretty tight and need to make sharp bends for several
inches. The 2 shielded wires run right by my FWF ground field of tabs about
1/4 the total length from the ignition modules. Is there anything wrong with
carefully removing the insulation on the shielded wires, wrapping ground wire
to shield and carefully soldering then connect to field of tabs?:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah1S270Nwg9V3VSqwoGL7YgsYS7Z?e=EsKSit
Thx. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498924#498924
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "fklein(at)orcasonline.com" <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
For some unknown reason, my replies are not getting posted on the
AeroElectric-listhere=99s one more try, F..
*****
Thanks Bobso many rabbit holes
And Thanks Graeme and Joe G. for the ref. to the Kitplanes
articlejust the ticket, though I=99d never imagined
myself opening the innards of an alternator.
Best,
Fred
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 8:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
>
>> As I think I mentioned, my engine came with the 55 amp. Denso
alternator=C2=85>> having it is not the result of my seeking great
bargains in COTS alternators. I do recall reading on the topic of OV
protection (without really understanding), and the topic has come up
because of what I=C3=A2=C2=C2=99m learning about LiFePO4 batteries
and their sensitivity to voltage spikes. So thank you for bringing the
issue front and center.
>
> Good show. LiFePO4 batteries with battery management
> systems are no more 'sensitive to spikes' than any
> SLVA battery. That's what the BMS is for. Also,
> the term 'spike' is never defined in terms of amplitude,
> duration, waveshape and/or source impedance.
>
> The DC supply of ALL vehicles is rife with NOISE of
> various characterizations. 99.9% of people who
> look at plots of those noises are inclined to
> say, "Hey Martha . . . lookit all those spikes".
>
> Keep in mind that people who are competing in the
> lithium cranking battery market are striving to
> make their product just as plug-n-play as they
> can for replacing SLVA. When assessing suitability
> of a marriage between your airplane and any
> LiFePO4 product . . . check the engineering system
> integration data sheet where limits are spelled
> out in measurable physical quantities. The term
> 'spike' is not measurable and should be ignored
> unless accompanied with detailed explanation.
>
> I've not found any reason to be concerned about
> dropping LiFePO4 products into a legacy SVLA
> slot and adjusting the regulator for 14.2 volts.
>
>
>> I trust that consuting my AeroElectric Connection will reveal just
how this alternator can be modified =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Cfor external
regulation and absolute crew control of the machine=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s
output which includes automatic OV protection.
>
> No, too many variables to cover in that
> document but as Joe cited, here are some
> excellent resources on the 'net. Keep
> us apprised of your progress and potholes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
I think they're showing up on the list. I see any original post I make to
the Matronics lists, but for some reason, they do not show me my responses
to others' posts. However, if I click on the 'view message online' link, I
can see that my post came through.
FWIW,
Charlie
On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 2:48 PM fklein(at)orcasonline.com <
fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:
> *For some unknown reason, my replies are not getting posted on
> the AeroElectric-listhere=99s one more try, F..*
>
> *****
> Thanks Bobso many rabbit holes
>
> And Thanks Graeme and Joe G. for the ref. to the Kitplanes article
just
> the ticket, though I=99d never imagined myself opening the innards
of an
> alternator.
>
> Best,
>
> Fred
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 8:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> As I think I mentioned, my engine came with the 55 amp. Denso
> alternatorhaving it is not the result of my seeking great bargai
ns in COTS
> alternators. I do recall reading on the topic of OV protection (without
> really understanding), and the topic has come up because of what I=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2m
> learning about LiFePO4 batteries and their sensitivity to voltage spikes.
> So thank you for bringing the issue front and center.
>
>
> Good show. LiFePO4 batteries with battery management
> systems are no more 'sensitive to spikes' than any
> SLVA battery. That's what the BMS is for. Also,
> the term 'spike' is never defined in terms of amplitude,
> duration, waveshape and/or source impedance.
>
> The DC supply of ALL vehicles is rife with NOISE of
> various characterizations. 99.9% of people who
> look at plots of those noises are inclined to
> say, "Hey Martha . . . lookit all those spikes".
>
> Keep in mind that people who are competing in the
> lithium cranking battery market are striving to
> make their product just as plug-n-play as they
> can for replacing SLVA. When assessing suitability
> of a marriage between your airplane and any
> LiFePO4 product . . . check the engineering system
> integration data sheet where limits are spelled
> out in measurable physical quantities. The term
> 'spike' is not measurable and should be ignored
> unless accompanied with detailed explanation.
>
> I've not found any reason to be concerned about
> dropping LiFePO4 products into a legacy SVLA
> slot and adjusting the regulator for 14.2 volts.
>
>
> I trust that consuting my AeroElectric Connection will reveal just how
> this alternator can be modified =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93for external regulat
ion and absolute
> crew control of the machine=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s output which include
s automatic OV
> protection.
>
>
> No, too many variables to cover in that
> document but as Joe cited, here are some
> excellent resources on the 'net. Keep
> us apprised of your progress and potholes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: an Alternator Load Dump...?... |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Your posts are showing up, 3 yesterday and 1 today.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498928#498928
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z102 w/AEC9005 |
>
>I see. So, given the reliability of batteries in general, and the
>simplicity of Z101 vs Z102, it sounds like you're leaning toward a
>recommendation for Z101 with a battery sized and maintained to
>achieve worst case engine-off pre-flight activities followed by
>spirited engine starts. The single battery would not be expected to
>support alternator-out flight loads for any longer than it takes the
>pilot to identify the problem and flip the AUX ALT
>switch. Operation in this condition would be assured by pre-flight
>testing of the standby alternator/regulator.
>
>Is that more-or-less accurate?
Yeah . . . a well crafted system doesn't suffer emergencies.
Low volts should not be an emergency. It's not even
an especially urgent event.
If mitigating action for a low volts warning doesn't
happen until, say, one minute later . . . outcome
of the flight for electrical insufficiency will
not change. Hence, if you have active notification
of low voltage, then an aux battery manager doesn't
do much to reduce risk.
If the ship is fitted with an auxiliary alternator
of lesser size, then design goals and plan-B
calculations will determine what actions are
needed after the warning . . . and time-to-
lights-out are KNOWN.
If an aux alternator can carry 100% of endurance
loads, then the flight can be continued to
airport of original destination. If it carries
less than 100% of endurance loads, then energy
stored in the battery can be drawn down with
an alternator assist. Endurance in this instance
is predictable.
If no aux alternator, then energy bucket is not
so big. But it can still be diligently allocated
for predictable endurance.
Splitting energy storage between two
batteries only doubles maintenance labor and
complicates endurance management when
loads assigned to each battery are not
identical.
Spitting that goal into two separate, probably
unequal tasks seems inelegant. It
seems that one battery, sized and maintained
to meet design goals for battery-only
endurance is more reliable and certainly
easier to meet design goals. The idea behind
'aux batteries' sort of evaporates. Indeed
all forms of 'standby' battery for the various
electro-whizzies should be evaluated. If the
engine is happy, then everybody is happy.
The steps to meeting design goals are validated
by doing the load analysis homework. Been
through this exercise many times . . . it's a
regulatory GIVEN on TC aircraft . . . for
both selection of battery capacity and protocols
for verifying conditions for continued airworthiness.
Contrary to the dreams of some program managers,
a quest for elegant design is not a straight line.
I've seen many a PERT chart forecasting time-
to-market . . . few were very accurate especially
for programs with new technology or promising
but untried philosophies.
I would describe the design process more like a spiral
path that circles the design goal several if
not many times with each circuit gathering in
useful ideas while pitching out the not so useful;
a process exceedingly difficult to plot on
a PERT chart!
When the first half dozen z-figures were published
30+ years ago, I couldn't begin to imagine
what Z101 would have looked like. Nor could
I imagine countless conversations and experiments
here on the List that drove the architecture. The
most interesting feature is a kind of plug-n-play
selection of busses and power sources easily tailored
to a wide range of projects. One drawing
may indeed replace most if to all those that
preceded it all managed by not more than 3 switches.
Z101 could have existed 30 years ago.
Nothing radically new in terms of technology.
If we'd only known then what we know
now! What's that timeless adage? Too
soon we get old and too late we get
smart?
And who is to say Z101 is the ultimate
solution? Not me. Let's continue to refine
the recipe for success while staying
mindful of the laws of physics, the
quest for reduction of weight, complexity,
cost and RISK while addressing the practical
matters of owning and operating airplanes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Brownout, revisited |
I thought I'd share my experience with curing 'brownout' in my specific
application; a followup to discussions about brownout step up converters
during the last week of Sept.
I've recently added a used (but fairly new tech) GRT Mini GA (intended for
certified a/c). and an older tech GRT Horizon HX to my panel. While the
Mini seems immune to voltage sag during starting, the HX is quite prone to
either rebooting, or more often, simply hanging up, after the start
sequence. I don't want a separate avionics switch, and the HX is fairly
slow to finish its boot process even without provocation. I looked at Bob's
circuit and wondered if I could simplify a bit for my limited needs.
The HX has three separate, diode-isolated inputs. It consumes an amp or two
in normal operation.
I used a 4A boost converter, bought via Amazon. I spliced the supply wire
that feeds the HX, so that it also feeds the boost converter. the
converter's output is adjusted to around 11.5V (enough to keep the HX
alive), and is fed into one of the spare power inputs on the HX. In four or
five flights since installation, I've had no issues with the HX rebooting
or locking up during engine start. The booster is technically always in the
circuit, but when the alternator is on line, its output 'floats' at
alternator voltage, so it's not really supplying power to the HX. IIRC, its
parasitic draw is under 1/2A.
End result: No relay, no extra feed circuit, and one extra feed into the HX
subD connector. Remember, the booster is feeding a single component in the
panel.
So far, I'm happy with the results.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding shielded wire 1/4 from one side? |
At 01:18 PM 10/22/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi Group I have a question about running a shielded wire to ground.
>On my Rotax 914 it has 2 shielded wires going from the Ducati
>ignition modules to the ignition ACS switch. The shield is connected
>to the ignition switch and is used to ground the Ducati ignition
>modules. Where the shielded wires go into the ignition connectors
>things get pretty tight and need to make sharp bends for several
>inches. The 2 shielded wires run right by my FWF ground field of
>tabs about 1/4 the total length from the ignition modules. Is there
>anything wrong with carefully removing the insulation on the
>shielded wires, wrapping ground wire to shield and carefully
>soldering then connect to field of tabs?:
>https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah1S270Nwg9V3VSqwoGL7YgsYS7Z?e=EsKSit
What you proposed is probably fine . . .
Ground shields to airframe in only one
place (forest of tabs) using your
proposed 'tap'. Use shields to SUPPLY
ground at ignition switch.
See attached . . .
Of course the assumed condition is that
there exists a FAT wire jumper from engine
crankcase to FWL stud.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brownout, revisited |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Good work Charlie.
Those DC - DC converters are so inexpensive that one could be installed for
each load that needs brownout protection. For loads that do not have built in
separate diode isolated inputs, a dual diode such as 863-MBRF20L45CTG can
be used. It is $0.83 at Mouser.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498941#498941
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Grounding shielded wire 1/4 from one side? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Bob
Thank you for reply. I have a #4 fat wire running from field of tab main negative
3/8" Brass bolt pass-through FW to the starter nub on my Rotax 914. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498943#498943
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B and Transponder antenna... |
On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 8:59 AM andymeyer wrote:
> >
>
> So, all this chatter about the ELT antennas got me thinking about the
> ADS-B antenna I made. I dove into the math, made some estimates, and
> designed two on Upverter and had parts made. I got luck in that my SlimJim
> ADS-B antenna has picked up airborne traffic over 100 miles away connected
> to a Stratux (I have both SDR radios tied into a single antenna - criminal
> - I know, but it works and it's small and light.)
>
> Attached are the layouts of the two antennas and links to the actual
> designs on Upverter.
> I had 5 of each made. Anyone interested in testing and sharing data -
> maybe make this a shared design as well. Cost is just a few bucks.
>
> Slim Jim: https://upverter.com/eda/#tool=pcb,designId=1d1c59be761e9901
> DiPole: https://upverter.com/eda/#tool=pcb,designId=9eb3fbd043861e96
>
>
> (Upverter is a pretty awesome cloud based schematic and layout tool that
> allows collaboration on designs, etc... Think Google Docs for circuit
> design.)
>
>
> Hello group,
Andrew sent me a couple of the antennas he mentioned, above, to play with
(Thanks, Andy), which got me motivated to take my 1st dive into using a
nanoVNA.
I promised Andrew I'd share results of testing the two antennas. Let me
remind everyone that while I consider myself reasonably adept at
electronics troubleshooting (3 or 4 'lives' in electronics maintenance),
I'm not formally educated in the field nor am I a HAM operator. I hope the
attached images will be viewed more as an invitation to teach me more about
how to use the nanoVNA than an actual analysis of the antennas.
Starting from a knowledge level of near zero, here we go: Since Andrew is
splitting the signal using one antenna to feed two SDRs that are tuned to
978MHz & 1090MHz, I set the center frequency on the VNA at the midpoint
between the two freqs (1034MHz), & span to 200MHz. On the *very* slim
chance that I set up the VNA correctly, It looks like the dipole has a
worst case SWR of around 4.6 & the Slim Jim was basically off the chart at
1090MHz.Measurements were taken with the antennas hanging on the 6" long
cable that came with the nanoVNA.
Even if I did the tests correctly, I'm not sure if the above has any real
meaning for a receive-only antenna. If there's a better test that can be
accomplished with the nanoVNA and someone is willing to walk me through the
setup, I'll be happy to run the test(s), or I can forward the antennas to
someone with more RF-foo. Shoot me a direct email if you're interested.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | How to do your term paper? |
| From: | "AmandaBrooks" <amandabrooks355(at)gmail.com> |
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498945#498945
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
After reading this article: https://www.kitplanes.com/positively-negative/
I ran a positive and a negative 2awg conductor from the back (battery) of my RV10
to the front. I missed the point where I had to calculate the total cable length
for the intermittent starting process..
This leaves me with approx. 28ft total 2awg wire length installed.
-2awg (+) wire from battery to starter and 2awg (-) wire from the engine block
to the firewall and from there to the battery. The only airframe negative is grounded
at the firewall.
My question is: how much current does the B&C starter draw inrush and continuous
to determine whether the 28ft 2awg wire can handle it without too much of voltage
drop -thus hurting the starter's performance?
aircraft: RV10
starter: B&C
engine: IO540
battery location: standard behind baggage bulkhead
Thank you
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498946#498946
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
You will be fine. You could have dispensed with the ground wire. My
RV-10 is grounded per the plans, at the battery mount. Use the Vans
supplied #2 positive wire to firewall mounted starter relay. Have been
flying 3.5 years on the original Odyssey 925L battery, no problems.
Kelly
On 10/25/2020 4:48 AM, supik wrote:
>
> After reading this article: https://www.kitplanes.com/positively-negative/
>
> I ran a positive and a negative 2awg conductor from the back (battery) of my
RV10 to the front. I missed the point where I had to calculate the total cable
length for the intermittent starting process..
>
> This leaves me with approx. 28ft total 2awg wire length installed.
> -2awg (+) wire from battery to starter and 2awg (-) wire from the engine block
to the firewall and from there to the battery. The only airframe negative is
grounded at the firewall.
>
> My question is: how much current does the B&C starter draw inrush and continuous
to determine whether the 28ft 2awg wire can handle it without too much of
voltage drop -thus hurting the starter's performance?
>
> aircraft: RV10
> starter: B&C
> engine: IO540
> battery location: standard behind baggage bulkhead
>
> Thank you
>
> --------
> Igor
>
> RV10 in progress
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498946#498946
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B and Transponder antenna... |
| From: | "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
There's an RF Engineer who works for Tektronix, Alan Wolke, who has a very good
YouTube channel. Among other things, he's recently been posting a series of
videos on how to use the nanoVNA for various measurements.
Note that the following playlist does not list the videos in the order they were
posted, but I would recommend at least watching #312 and #313 before any others.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4ZSD4omd_AylEyNCQYR3RcEb0olukPEJ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498948#498948
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z102 w/AEC9005 |
| From: | "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> [SNIP]
> If the ship is fitted with an auxiliary alternator
> of lesser size, then design goals and plan-B
> calculations will determine what actions are
> needed after the warning . . . and time-to-
> lights-out are KNOWN.
>
> If an aux alternator can carry 100% of endurance
> loads, then the flight can be continued to airport
> of original destination. If it carries less than 100%
> of endurance loads, then energy stored in the
> battery can be drawn down with an alternator
> assist. Endurance in this instance is predictable.
>
> If no aux alternator, then energy bucket is not so
> big. But it can still be diligently allocated for
> predictable endurance.
>
> Splitting energy storage between two batteries
> only doubles maintenance labor and complicates
> endurance management when loads assigned to
> each battery are not identical.
I'm sold. A system with a second alternator capable of supporting endurance loads
does seem a more useful and less maintenance-intensive solution than carrying
around a second battery.
Given the minimal equipment in my aircraft, supporting even normal flight loads
with an auxiliary alternator should be trivial. In addition to that configuration
getting me to my original destination, it gets me there with a charged battery,
so I'm not stuck there, AOG.
I suspect that the factory-supplied 65A alternator could be replaced with a smaller,
lighter unit with half the capacity, still have headroom to spare, and buy
back some of the weight penalty of the second alternator.
Thanks, Bob. I'll probably be back for more when I get to the load analysis.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498949#498949
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
At 06:48 AM 10/25/2020, you wrote:
>
>After reading this article: https://www.kitplanes.com/positively-negative/
>
>I ran a positive and a negative 2awg conductor from the back
>(battery) of my RV10 to the front. I missed the point where I had to
>calculate the total cable length for the intermittent starting process..
Igor, please don't do this . . .
There is no foundation in physics or practice that
justifies this.
Yes, the proposed 'upgrades' have some 'advantage'
but too small to observe and difficult to measure.
See Figure Z-15 for grounding architectures
that have successful track records going back
nearly a century.
>This leaves me with approx. 28ft total 2awg wire length installed.
>-2awg (+) wire from battery to starter and 2awg (-) wire from the
>engine block to the firewall and from there to the battery. The only
>airframe negative is grounded at the firewall.
>
>My question is: how much current does the B&C starter draw inrush
>and continuous to determine whether the 28ft 2awg wire can handle it
>without too much of voltage drop -thus hurting the starter's performance?
"Too much voltage drop" is un-quantified.
Are you having problems cranking the engine?
"Hurting starter performance" is also
un-quantified. No starter EVER expects
to see 12v in any vehicle. It's a given
that internal resistance of the battery
added to cranking path resistance will
deliver 9-10 volts to the starter. Modern
starters not withstanding deliver much
better performance than the legacy
tractor starters fitted to most of
the Lycomings in the years before
B&C and they got the engine running
un spite of engine driven fuel pumps,
manual primer pumps, magnetos with
impulse couplers, etc. In fact, if
was skilled at getting the
variables corraled, the engine could
be started by hand.
The quantum jump in modern starter performance
pretty much eliminates starters as
a root cause for poor cranking. Adding
wires in the manner suggested in the article
is at best, a band-aid on some more
fundamental problem.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Nobody knows how much current a starter motor will draw, not even the
manufacturer, because it depends on many variables such as engine
condition, engine size, temperature, wire size, battery type and size and etc.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498952#498952
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Don't forget to read the description paragraph for Z-15 in the Aeroelectric Connection book. Page Z-4 at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/AppZ_12A3.pdf
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498953#498953
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wire Harness Fabrication |
| From: | "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com> |
A lot of theory and educational design topics get discussed and promoted here.
System Design and wire harness fabrication and installation are two very different
arenas in EAB aircraft.
I've seen some elegantly installed electrical systems. The wire bundles look like
a highway system with roads branching off left and right as they pass each
company. They are very orderly and neat.
The techniques used that might make wire these kind bundles inspire confidence
is of interest to me. I've youtube'd a few things. Rope being used to plan
the route of a harness from components, to a main trunk, to components. I've
seen wiring diagrams drawn onto 8' long butcher paper that is attached to 4x8
sheets of peg board and the harness is build on to it.
Are there some outstanding resources available to help take the theory of aircraft
electrical systems and help a tenderfoot look like he veteran as he applis
AC43.13 without redoing it three times?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498954#498954
________________________________________________________________________________
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| From: | "kaiwaters" <kai.waters30(at)gmail.com> |
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498960#498960
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Why Opt for Construction Cost Estimation? |
| From: | "kaiwaters" <kai.waters30(at)gmail.com> |
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498961#498961
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Different Types of Cost Estimate |
| From: | "kaiwaters" <kai.waters30(at)gmail.com> |
A cost estimate is a computation accomplished for the amounts of an alternate thing
of work alongside their costs that are associated with the task work. The
aggregate expense of all the amount of work by a development cost assessor will
give a thought regarding the absolute development cost or assessed cost of
undertaking work. Note that the determined expense of work will be a nearby guess
of its genuine expense. A right and precise cost estimate are essential for
all the tasks to make it practical.
The main role of the cost estimate by a development assessor is to give a sensibly
exact thought of the expense. The exact labour and materials pricing (https://lakerbfs.co.uk/architectural-design/)
of the task is fundamental to give the
proprietor a sensibly precise thought of the cost that will assist him with
choosing whether he has enough account for the work or need to organize some
more cash. Presently, how about we examine the various kinds of venture cost assessment
that is utilized in development:
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498962#498962
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
Thank you all!
I'll remove the long neg. wire and ground the battery locally.
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498964#498964
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wire Harness Fabrication |
| From: | "jsajpf" <john.friday_adis(at)sbcglobal.net> |
If you haven't run across the Dark Aero project yet, recommend having a look at their Knowledge Base resource they make available. The Avionics Spreadsheet Tool is a pretty impressive collection of info to aid in planning a build. Found here: https://www.darkaero.com/knowledge/avionics/.
They have a video on their YouTube channel explaining some of their routing layout
techniques (i.e. a variation on the butcher paper theme).
The FAA has some guidance available in the form of a Job Aid with numerous pictures and illustrations, meant primarily for large transport category aircraft. https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/training/air_training_program/job_aids/
And this resource from Australia has proven useful; its kind of an updated Chpater 11 of AC 43.13-1B: https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/ac-21-99-aircraft-wiring-and-bonding
Best,
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498965#498965
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mikepienaar09(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire Harness Fabrication |
>From my experience
Leave extra wire at the end of where ever you are routing your wire for a
service loop and just in case, 4 or 5 feet is not excessive.
Make sure you have enough space, the bundles are much thicker than I
imagined at the start.
Put in 4,5 or even 6 extra wires just in case you want to reposition
something or decide on something new
I printed labels on paper and used clear heatshrink to seal the labels onto
the wire, shorter intervals between labels at the termination and larger
spacing in the middle of the run, this worked well
Don't be discouraged if it looks messy while you are working, it looks much
better after you tidy up and lace or tie your bundles.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of jsajpf
Sent: October 26, 2020 8:47 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire Harness Fabrication
-->
If you haven't run across the Dark Aero project yet, recommend having a look
at their Knowledge Base resource they make available. The Avionics
Spreadsheet Tool is a pretty impressive collection of info to aid in
planning a build. Found here: https://www.darkaero.com/knowledge/avionics/.
They have a video on their YouTube channel explaining some of their routing
layout techniques (i.e. a variation on the butcher paper theme).
The FAA has some guidance available in the form of a Job Aid with numerous
pictures and illustrations, meant primarily for large transport category
aircraft.
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/training/air_training_program/job_aids/
And this resource from Australia has proven useful; its kind of an updated
Chpater 11 of AC 43.13-1B:
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/ac-21-99-aircraft-wiring-and-bonding
Best,
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498965#498965
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1dw" <n1deltawhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration with
batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries and firewall
connection. From the latter connection, I feed the main bus and an e-bus
via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds from the batteries to the
e-bus. I have an electrically dependent automotive fuel injected conversion
powerplant.
I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not get a
reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery directly to the
e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is that the voltage drop while
cranking the engine was sufficient to cause the ignition system to not
operate reliably. This may have been due to the 9-10v cranking voltage
drop in in addition to the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my
understanding that most ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A battery while
feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
Again, don't know if this is relevant to this discussion.
Regards, Doug Windhorn
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
At 06:48 AM 10/25/2020, you wrote:
>
After reading this article: https://www.kitplanes.com/positively-negative/
I ran a positive and a negative 2awg conductor from the back (battery) of my
RV10 to the front. I missed the point where I had to calculate the total
cable length for the intermittent starting process..
Igor, please don't do this . . .
There is no foundation in physics or practice that
justifies this.
Yes, the proposed 'upgrades' have some 'advantage'
but too small to observe and difficult to measure.
See Figure Z-15 for grounding architectures
that have successful track records going back
nearly a century.
This leaves me with approx. 28ft total 2awg wire length installed.
-2awg (+) wire from battery to starter and 2awg (-) wire from the engine
block to the firewall and from there to the battery. The only airframe
negative is grounded at the firewall.
My question is: how much current does the B&C starter draw inrush and
continuous to determine whether the 28ft 2awg wire can handle it without too
much of voltage drop -thus hurting the starter's performance?
"Too much voltage drop" is un-quantified.
Are you having problems cranking the engine?
"Hurting starter performance" is also
un-quantified. No starter EVER expects
to see 12v in any vehicle. It's a given
that internal resistance of the battery
added to cranking path resistance will
deliver 9-10 volts to the starter. Modern
starters not withstanding deliver much
better performance than the legacy
tractor starters fitted to most of
the Lycomings in the years before
B&C and they got the engine running
un spite of engine driven fuel pumps,
manual primer pumps, magnetos with
impulse couplers, etc. In fact, if
was skilled at getting the
variables corraled, the engine could
be started by hand.
The quantum jump in modern starter performance
pretty much eliminates starters as
a root cause for poor cranking. Adding
wires in the manner suggested in the article
is at best, a band-aid on some more
fundamental problem.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie Willis <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
Continuing to work the strobe noise dilemma in the old Bonanza. The latest was
an awg 8 wire from an alternator mounting bolt to the negative post of the battery..Perhaps
the strobe noise is a little less but the wig wag wing lights are
just as noisy. The strobes ground to the grounding forest but the wig wags
are to the airframe. I think my next step is to move their ground to the grounding
forest. This may have nothing to do with the problem but perhaps is worth
mentioning. The original landing lights were PAR 46 incandescent. I made
a minor alteration and changed them to PAR 36 LED with no noise. The noise occurred
when I went to PAR 46 LED. I used the same wiring for both size LED Bulbs.
Perhaps the extra current for the larger light is part of the problem.
Again the noise doesnt change with alternator speed or radio on or off.
Please continue to share your ideas.
Thanks,
Bernie
> On Oct 14, 2020, at 09:04, user9253 wrote:
>
>
> Usually the negative wire needs to be the same size as the positive wire. The
exception is when
> the negative current has another path to ground, for instance through mounting
brackets.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498821#498821
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Try increasing size of the alternator "B" lead to see if that helps.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498973#498973
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
>installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration
>with batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries and
>firewall connection. From the latter connection, I feed the main
>bus and an e-bus via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds
>from the batteries to the e-bus. I have an electrically dependent
>automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>
>I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not
>get a reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery
>directly to the e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is that
>the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to cause
>the ignition system to not operate reliably. This may have been due
>to the 9-10v cranking voltage drop in in addition to the up to 1v
>drop across the diode. It is my understanding that most ignition
>systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>
>My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A battery
>while feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>
>Again, don't know if this is relevant to this discussion.
Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
analysis of your observation, we'd have to
see a schematic of your distribution system
and a good physical description of the
installation.
Your observations are no doubt accurate
but anecdotal with respect to cause and
effect.
You don't seem to have an issue with
cranking (starter) performance but instead,
the ignition system seems especially
sensitive to low supply voltage. This
is curious as automotive electronics are
designed to function under exceedingly
trying conditions.
The batteries in automobiles are the
second worst maintained in practice
(farm equipment comes first). Any
automotive designer worth his salt
strives for state of battery to be
the last bastion of determination
for getting ol' bessy fired up.
If the starter motor achieves
rotation at all, getting one ideally
charged cylinder past TDC is going
to speak to failure/success. Voltage
to the electrics is generally not
the limiting factor.
The article referenced at the start
of this thread speaks in generalities
and offers no data that quantifies
improvements to be secured nor does
offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
in practice having been resolved.
Your narrative at least describes
actions taken and improvements noted
as a consequence of that action. But
it too is short on data that would
help us understand exactly what
is happening.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1dw" <n1deltawhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
Bob,
Thank you for your comments. I have attached some JPEG images of my
relevant schematics. The originals are .ODG drawings (can't figure out how
to transfer to PDF). I hope these may help; let me know if there is
something else I can provide. FYI, the numbers interrupting the wires
between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
Not sure what you mean by "a good physical description of the installation."
The only thing I can add, not included in the drawings, is that the firewall
passthroughs are 5/16" tin-plated threaded studs in an insulated frame mount
commonly used by boaters. Batteries are Odyssey PC680's.
The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago and
generally followed the drawings of the engine converter for those engine
related components. I tried to follow your Z drawings (forgot which one)
for overall ships electrical installation. I have not measured more than
about .007 ohms resistance along any of the wires installed, but maybe I
should recheck some of those.
Additional notations in your prior response.
Doug
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration with
batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries and firewall
connection. From the latter connection, I feed the main bus and an e-bus
via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds from the batteries to the
e-bus. I have an electrically dependent automotive fuel injected conversion
powerplant.
I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not get a
reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery directly to the
e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is that the voltage drop while
cranking the engine was sufficient to cause the ignition system to not
operate reliably. This may have been due to the 9-10v cranking voltage
drop in in addition to the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my
understanding that most ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A battery while
feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
Again, don't know if this is relevant to this discussion.
Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
analysis of your observation, we'd have to
see a schematic of your distribution system
and a good physical description of the
installation.
Your observations are no doubt accurate
but anecdotal with respect to cause and
effect.
You don't seem to have an issue with
cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original starter
was replaced a few years ago) but instead,
the ignition system seems especially
sensitive to low supply voltage. This
is curious as automotive electronics are
designed to function under exceedingly
trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2 unit,
doubtful that it was intended for automobiles, but..)
The batteries in automobiles are the
second worst maintained in practice
(farm equipment comes first). Any
automotive designer worth his salt
strives for state of battery to be
the last bastion of determination
for getting ol' bessy fired up.
If the starter motor achieves
rotation at all, getting one ideally
charged cylinder past TDC is going
to speak to failure/success. Voltage
to the electrics is generally not
the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition modules
typically recommended at least 10v to be reliable; don't know if that is
typical or referred to a specific brand module.)
The article referenced at the start
of this thread speaks in generalities
and offers no data that quantifies
improvements to be secured nor does
offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
in practice having been resolved.
Your narrative at least describes
actions taken and improvements noted
as a consequence of that action. But
it too is short on data that would
help us understand exactly what
is happening. (I'd like to know what's happening, if only an intellectual
exercise.)
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
| From: | Dick Tasker <dick(at)thetaskerfamily.com> |
If you can print ODG drawings you can use PDF Creator to make a PDF. Go to "https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator/download" for the free version.
I use it to make PDFs from any program that can print.
Dick Tasker
n1dw wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Thank you for your comments. I have attached some JPEG images of my relevant
schematics. The originals are .ODG drawings (cant figure out how to transfer to
PDF). I hope these may help; let me
> know if there is something else I can provide. FYI, the numbers interrupting
the wires between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
>
> Not sure what you mean by a good physical description of the installation. The
only thing I can add, not included in the drawings, is that the firewall passthroughs
are 5/16 tin-plated threaded
> studs in an insulated frame mount commonly used by boaters. Batteries are Odyssey
PC680s.
>
> The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago and generally
followed the drawings of the engine converter for those engine related components.
I tried to follow your Z drawings
> (forgot which one) for overall ships electrical installation. I have not measured
more than about .007 ohms resistance along any of the wires installed, but
maybe I should recheck some of those.
>
> Additional notations in your prior response.
>
> Doug
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
*On Behalf Of *Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
>
> At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine installation.
I have a single alternator dual battery configuration with batteries aft
and 2 AWG cables between the batteries
> and firewall connection. From the latter connection, I feed the main bus
and an e-bus via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds from the batteries
to the e-bus. I have an electrically
> dependent automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>
> I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not get a reliable
start. But when I switched to the second battery directly to the e-bus,
no starting problem. My conclusion is
> that the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to cause the
ignition system to not operate reliably. This may have been due to the 9-10v
cranking voltage drop in in addition to
> the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my understanding that most ignition
systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>
> My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A battery while
feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>
> Again, dont know if this is relevant to this discussion.
>
> Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
> analysis of your observation, we'd have to
> see a schematic of your distribution system
> and a good physical description of the
> installation.
>
> Your observations are no doubt accurate
> but anecdotal with respect to cause and
> effect.
>
> You don't seem to have an issue with
> cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original starter was
replaced a few years ago) but instead,
> the ignition system seems especially
> sensitive to low supply voltage. This
> is curious as automotive electronics are
> designed to function under exceedingly
> trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2 unit, doubtful
that it was intended for automobiles, but.)
>
> The batteries in automobiles are the
> second worst maintained in practice
> (farm equipment comes first). Any
> automotive designer worth his salt
> strives for state of battery to be
> the last bastion of determination
> for getting ol' bessy fired up.
>
> If the starter motor achieves
> rotation at all, getting one ideally
> charged cylinder past TDC is going
> to speak to failure/success. Voltage
> to the electrics is generally not
> the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition modules typically
recommended at least 10v to be reliable; dont know if that is typical
or referred to a specific brand module.)
>
> The article referenced at the start
> of this thread speaks in generalities
> and offers no data that quantifies
> improvements to be secured nor does
> offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
> in practice having been resolved.
>
> Your narrative at least describes
> actions taken and improvements noted
> as a consequence of that action. But
> it too is short on data that would
> help us understand exactly what
> is happening. (Id like to know whats happening, if only an intellectual exercise.)
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Or, continue to use jpgs, so we can view them within the email instead
of having to download them & open separately in Adobe.
;-)
On 10/28/2020 7:24 PM, Dick Tasker wrote:
>
>
> If you can print ODG drawings you can use PDF Creator to make a PDF.
> Go to "https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator/download" for the free
> version.
>
> I use it to make PDFs from any program that can print.
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> n1dw wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Thank you for your comments. I have attached some JPEG images of my
>> relevant schematics. The originals are .ODG drawings (cant figure
>> out how to transfer to PDF). I hope these may help; let me know if
>> there is something else I can provide. FYI, the numbers interrupting
>> the wires between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean by a good physical description of the
>> installation. The only thing I can add, not included in the
>> drawings, is that the firewall passthroughs are 5/16 tin-plated
>> threaded studs in an insulated frame mount commonly used by boaters.
>> Batteries are Odyssey PC680s.
>>
>> The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago
>> and generally followed the drawings of the engine converter for those
>> engine related components. I tried to follow your Z drawings (forgot
>> which one) for overall ships electrical installation. I have not
>> measured more than about .007 ohms resistance along any of the wires
>> installed, but maybe I should recheck some of those.
>>
>> Additional notations in your prior response.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> *On Behalf Of *Robert
>> L. Nuckolls, III
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
>>
>> At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
>> installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration
>> with batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries
>> and firewall connection. From the latter connection, I feed the
>> main bus and an e-bus via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds
>> from the batteries to the e-bus. I have an electrically
>> dependent automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>>
>> I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not
>> get a reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery
>> directly to the e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is
>> that the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to
>> cause the ignition system to not operate reliably. This may have
>> been due to the 9-10v cranking voltage drop in in addition to
>> the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my understanding that
>> most ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>>
>> My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A
>> battery while feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>>
>> Again, dont know if this is relevant to this discussion.
>>
>> Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
>> analysis of your observation, we'd have to
>> see a schematic of your distribution system
>> and a good physical description of the
>> installation.
>>
>> Your observations are no doubt accurate
>> but anecdotal with respect to cause and
>> effect.
>>
>> You don't seem to have an issue with
>> cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original
>> starter was replaced a few years ago) but instead,
>> the ignition system seems especially
>> sensitive to low supply voltage. This
>> is curious as automotive electronics are
>> designed to function under exceedingly
>> trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2
>> unit, doubtful that it was intended for automobiles, but.)
>>
>> The batteries in automobiles are the
>> second worst maintained in practice
>> (farm equipment comes first). Any
>> automotive designer worth his salt
>> strives for state of battery to be
>> the last bastion of determination
>> for getting ol' bessy fired up.
>>
>> If the starter motor achieves
>> rotation at all, getting one ideally
>> charged cylinder past TDC is going
>> to speak to failure/success. Voltage
>> to the electrics is generally not
>> the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition
>> modules typically recommended at least 10v to be reliable; dont know
>> if that is typical or referred to a specific brand module.)
>>
>> The article referenced at the start
>> of this thread speaks in generalities
>> and offers no data that quantifies
>> improvements to be secured nor does
>> offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
>> in practice having been resolved.
>>
>> Your narrative at least describes
>> actions taken and improvements noted
>> as a consequence of that action. But
>> it too is short on data that would
>> help us understand exactly what
>> is happening. (Id like to know whats happening, if only an
>> intellectual exercise.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1dw" <n1deltawhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
Dick, thanks for the tip. Have attached the newly created PDF versions.
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Dick Tasker
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
-->
If you can print ODG drawings you can use PDF Creator to make a PDF.-
Go to
"https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator/download" for the free version.
I use it to make PDFs from any program that can print.
Dick Tasker
n1dw wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Thank you for your comments.- I have attached some JPEG images of my
> relevant schematics.- The originals are .ODG drawings (can=92t
figure out
how to transfer to PDF).- I hope these may help; let me know if there
is
something else I can provide.- FYI, the numbers interrupting the wires
between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
>
> Not sure what you mean by =93a good physical description of the
> installation.=94- The only thing I can add, not included in the
drawings, is
that the firewall passthroughs are 5/16=94 tin-plated threaded studs in
an
insulated frame mount commonly used by boaters. -Batteries are Odyssey
PC680=92s.
>
> The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago and
> generally followed the drawings of the engine converter for those
engine
related components. I tried to follow your Z drawings (forgot which one)
for
overall ships electrical installation.- I have not measured more than
about
.007 ohms resistance along any of the wires installed, but maybe I
should
recheck some of those.
>
> Additional notations in your prior response.
>
> Doug
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> *On Behalf Of *Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
>
> At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
installation.- I have a single alternator dual battery configuration
with
batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries
> and firewall connection.- From the latter connection, I feed the
main
bus and an e-bus via a diode.- I also have direct switched feeds from
the
batteries to the e-bus.- I have an electrically
> dependent automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>
> I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not
get
a reliable start.- But when I switched to the second battery directly
to the
e-bus, no starting problem.- My conclusion is
> that the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to
cause the ignition system to not operate reliably.- This may have been
due
to the 9-10v- cranking voltage drop in in addition to
> the up to 1v drop across the diode.- It is my understanding that
most
ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>
> My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A
battery
while feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>
> Again, don=92t know if this is relevant to this discussion.
>
> - Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
> - analysis of your observation, we'd have to
> - see a schematic of your distribution system
> - and a good physical description of the
> - installation.
>
> - Your observations are no doubt accurate
> - but anecdotal with respect to cause and
> - effect.
>
> - You don't seem to have an issue with
> - cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original
> starter was replaced a few years ago) but instead,
> - the ignition system seems especially
> - sensitive to low supply voltage. This
> - is curious as automotive electronics are
> - designed to function under exceedingly
> - trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2
> unit, doubtful that it was intended for automobiles, but=85.)
>
> - The batteries in automobiles are the
> - second worst maintained in practice
> - (farm equipment comes first). Any
> - automotive designer worth his salt
> - strives for state of battery to be
> - the last bastion of determination
> - for getting ol' bessy fired up.
>
> - If the starter motor achieves
> - rotation at all, getting one ideally
> - charged cylinder past TDC is going
> - to speak to failure/success. Voltage
> - to the electrics is generally not
> - the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition
> modules typically recommended at least 10v to be reliable; don=92t
know
> if that is typical or referred to a specific brand module.)
>
> - The article referenced at the start
> - of this thread speaks in generalities
> - and offers no data that quantifies
> - improvements to be secured nor does
> - offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
> - in practice having been resolved.
>
> - Your narrative at least describes
> - actions taken and improvements noted
> - as a consequence of that action. But
> - it too is short on data that would
> - help us understand exactly what
> - is happening. (I=92d like to know what=92s happening, if only an
> intellectual exercise.)
>
>
> - Bob . . .
>
List
7-Day
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1dw" <n1deltawhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
Also a good thought Charlie. Now I am confused
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
-->
Or, continue to use jpgs, so we can view them within the email instead of having
to download them & open separately in Adobe.
;-)
On 10/28/2020 7:24 PM, Dick Tasker wrote:
>
>
> If you can print ODG drawings you can use PDF Creator to make a PDF.
> Go to "https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator/download" for the free
> version.
>
> I use it to make PDFs from any program that can print.
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> n1dw wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Thank you for your comments. I have attached some JPEG images of my
>> relevant schematics. The originals are .ODG drawings (cant figure
>> out how to transfer to PDF). I hope these may help; let me know if
>> there is something else I can provide. FYI, the numbers interrupting
>> the wires between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean by a good physical description of the
>> installation. The only thing I can add, not included in the
>> drawings, is that the firewall passthroughs are 5/16 tin-plated
>> threaded studs in an insulated frame mount commonly used by boaters.
>> Batteries are Odyssey PC680s.
>>
>> The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago
>> and generally followed the drawings of the engine converter for those
>> engine related components. I tried to follow your Z drawings (forgot
>> which one) for overall ships electrical installation. I have not
>> measured more than about .007 ohms resistance along any of the wires
>> installed, but maybe I should recheck some of those.
>>
>> Additional notations in your prior response.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> *On Behalf Of *Robert
>> L. Nuckolls, III
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
>>
>> At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
>> installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration
>> with batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries
>> and firewall connection. From the latter connection, I feed the
>> main bus and an e-bus via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds
>> from the batteries to the e-bus. I have an electrically
>> dependent automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>>
>> I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not
>> get a reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery
>> directly to the e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is
>> that the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to
>> cause the ignition system to not operate reliably. This may have
>> been due to the 9-10v cranking voltage drop in in addition to
>> the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my understanding that
>> most ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>>
>> My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A
>> battery while feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>>
>> Again, dont know if this is relevant to this discussion.
>>
>> Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
>> analysis of your observation, we'd have to
>> see a schematic of your distribution system
>> and a good physical description of the
>> installation.
>>
>> Your observations are no doubt accurate
>> but anecdotal with respect to cause and
>> effect.
>>
>> You don't seem to have an issue with
>> cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original
>> starter was replaced a few years ago) but instead,
>> the ignition system seems especially
>> sensitive to low supply voltage. This
>> is curious as automotive electronics are
>> designed to function under exceedingly
>> trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2
>> unit, doubtful that it was intended for automobiles, but.)
>>
>> The batteries in automobiles are the
>> second worst maintained in practice
>> (farm equipment comes first). Any
>> automotive designer worth his salt
>> strives for state of battery to be
>> the last bastion of determination
>> for getting ol' bessy fired up.
>>
>> If the starter motor achieves
>> rotation at all, getting one ideally
>> charged cylinder past TDC is going
>> to speak to failure/success. Voltage
>> to the electrics is generally not
>> the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition
>> modules typically recommended at least 10v to be reliable; dont know
>> if that is typical or referred to a specific brand module.)
>>
>> The article referenced at the start
>> of this thread speaks in generalities
>> and offers no data that quantifies
>> improvements to be secured nor does
>> offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
>> in practice having been resolved.
>>
>> Your narrative at least describes
>> actions taken and improvements noted
>> as a consequence of that action. But
>> it too is short on data that would
>> help us understand exactly what
>> is happening. (Id like to know whats happening, if only an
>> intellectual exercise.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What sort of screws would it be a good idea for you? |
| From: | "kaiwaters" <kai.waters30(at)gmail.com> |
Screws are the most flexible latches utilized in carpentry. Wood screws are helpful
for rapidly assembling dances and clipping structures, joining bureau and
furniture parts, mounting equipment and trim, and considerably more. Screws structure
solid associations between parts produced using strong wood, compressed
wood, and other sheet merchandise without the requirement for cut joinery.
From heads to drives, focuses on strings, platings to coatings, our creator gives
you an exhaustive instruction in the choices accessible in the realm of present-day
screws. Online Builders merchants (https://lakerbfs.co.uk/) provide
you different types of screws. Picking the correct wood screw used to be basic
pick a zinc or metal screw with the correct size and length for the current task.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499008#499008
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I applied 12 volts to the coil of an automotive type relay to test it. Smoke
came out. I had forgotten that the relay contained an arc suppression diode.
As luck would have it, I connected the 12 volts to the coil with polarity
reversed. I can not buy an exact replacement part number CB1-D-12V
because it is obsolete. I am having trouble finding a compatible replacement
relay online. There are relays available with an internal resistor instead of
a
diode. Is a resistor good enough? It is impossible to locate a diode
elsewhere in the circuit because it is sealed.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499010#499010
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SMOKED RELAY |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 10/29/2020 10:37 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
> I applied 12 volts to the coil of an automotive type relay to test it. Smoke
> came out. I had forgotten that the relay contained an arc suppression diode.
> As luck would have it, I connected the 12 volts to the coil with polarity
> reversed. I can not buy an exact replacement part number CB1-D-12V
> because it is obsolete. I am having trouble finding a compatible replacement
> relay online. There are relays available with an internal resistor instead of
a
> diode. Is a resistor good enough? It is impossible to locate a diode
> elsewhere in the circuit because it is sealed.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
Is it a typical 'cube' relay, as shown in this search?
https://www.google.com/search?q=CB1-D-12V&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS843US843&oq=CB1-D-12V&aqs=chrome..69i57.3184157j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Does it still function (coil & contacts still good)? If so, if you can't
find a plug&play replacement you can simply splice a diode into the
wiring harness from the coil positive to coil negative wires, anywhere
in the circuit that's convenient.
The basic 'cube' style relay shows up in dozens of listings on ebay &
Amazon.
If your controlling switch is rated for 10A or so, the diode probably
won't make any difference in switch life (it should handle the
insignificant arc energy).
Charlie
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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SMOKED RELAY |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Charlie. It looks like part number PB682-ND will replace the relay.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499013#499013
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS |
| From: | "Marvin McGraw" <Marvinmcgraw1(at)juno.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:
>
> > Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering
the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux
feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt.
>
> It doesn't really matter much since all busses
> are very robust. Put all engine loads on one
> bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be
> fine. No more busses needed
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
If I understand this correctly, you are saying:
(1) do not add the engine bus
(2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either battery bus
(3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie
Am I missing anything?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499014#499014
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SMOKED RELAY |
>I can not buy an exact replacement part number CB1-D-12V
>because it is obsolete. I am having trouble finding a compatible replacement
>relay online.
It was probably discontinued for the risk
you've already experienced.
> There are relays available with an internal resistor instead of a
>diode. Is a resistor good enough?
Yes . . . and the resistor is not polarity
sensitive and will work just fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Lead Acid Batteries |
Hi All,
I hope everyone is doing well.
I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries.
First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concrete
floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocks.is that
actually true or have I just been "snipe hunting" all of these years
(decades)?
Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the
way down to zero.or if it had gotten severely discharged a few times.it will
no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why would a good battery
become junk just because you "left the lights on" and drained it down to
zero?
Third question is what is the difference between a "car battery" and a
"marine battery/ deep cycle battery"?
Thanks everyone!!!
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? |
Does anybody recognize this nav light assembly?
It currently has incandescent light bulbs for the position lights however I
would really like to change the light bulbs to LED so I was wondering if
anybody has gone down this route before and would recommend what LED light
bulbs to use?
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lead Acid Batteries |
Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale.
Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely shorten
its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed when the batt
ery is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze which will really sho
rten its life quickly as the case will often split and let the acid (well mo
stly water once fully discharged) leak out once it thaws.
Matt
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Hi All,
>
> I hope everyone is doing well.
>
> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries
>
> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concret
e floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocks
is that actually true or have I just been =9Csnipe hunting=9D
all of these years (decades)?
>
> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the
way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few time
sit will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why wo
uld a good battery become junk just because you =9Cleft the lights on
=9D and drained it down to zero?
>
> Third question is what is the difference between a =9Ccar battery
=9D and a =9Cmarine battery/ deep cycle battery=9D?
>
> Thanks everyone!!!
>
> Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? |
That looks like a Whelen rather than a Grimes. As for replacement, there's
all sorts of half assed solutions but the proven ones are the Aveo:
https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/elpages/aveoultraembedded.php?clickkey=5325
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 6:00 PM Bill Hunter
wrote:
> Does anybody recognize this nav light assembly?
>
> It currently has incandescent light bulbs for the position lights however
> I would really like to change the light bulbs to LED so I was wondering if
> anybody has gone down this route before and would recommend what LED light
> bulbs to use?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Hunter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS |
| From: | "Marvin McGraw" <Marvinmcgraw1(at)juno.com> |
Marvin McGraw wrote:
>
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> > At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:
> >
> > > Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering
the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux
feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt.
> >
> > It doesn't really matter much since all busses
> > are very robust. Put all engine loads on one
> > bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be
> > fine. No more busses needed
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
> If I understand this correctly, you are saying:
> (1) do not add the engine bus
> (2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either battery bus
> (3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie
>
> Am I missing anything?
Correction:
(2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either the main bus or the aux bus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499028#499028
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lead Acid Batteries |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
It was true when old wives were young, and battery cases were made of
hard rubber. Once the switch was made to polypropylene or equivalent, it
was no longer true. Battery's freeze point is dependent on state of
charge. Discharged it can be close to freezing, but if fully charged it
is somewhere near -70F. When I had plane in those temps, I made sure
battery was removed before reaching -40.
On 10/29/2020 6:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
> Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale.
>
> Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely
> shorten its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed
> when the battery is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze
> which will really shorten its life quickly as the case will often split
> and let the acid (well mostly water once fully discharged) leak out once
> it thaws.
>
> Matt
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I hope everyone is doing well.
>>
>> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries
>>
>> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the
>> concrete floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood
>> blocksis that actually true or have I just been snipe hunting all
>> of these years (decades)?
>>
>> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all
>> the way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few
>> timesit will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why
>> would a good battery become junk just because you left the lights on
>> and drained it down to zero?
>>
>> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and a
>> marine battery/ deep cycle battery?
>>
>> Thanks everyone!!!
>>
>> Bill
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lead Acid Batteries |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 10/29/2020 8:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
> Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale.
>
> Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely
> shorten its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed
> when the battery is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze
> which will really shorten its life quickly as the case will often
> split and let the acid (well mostly water once fully discharged) leak
> out once it thaws.
>
> Matt
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I hope everyone is doing well.
>>
>> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries
>>
>> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the
>> concrete floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on
>> wood blocksis that actually true or have I just been snipe hunting
>> all of these years (decades)?
>>
>> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge
>> all the way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a
>> few timesit will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so
>> why would a good battery become junk just because you left the
>> lights on and drained it down to zero?
>>
>> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and
>> a marine battery/ deep cycle battery?
>>
>> Thanks everyone!!!
>>
>> Bill
>>
To the last question: deep cycle have thicker plates, allowing deeper
discharge without damaging the cells. Lots of docs available; just
google 'starting battery vs deep cycle'.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lead Acid Batteries |
I dont think any wives alive today were also around when batteries were last made
with hard rubber cases that contained carbon and were slightly porous.
Yes, a fully charged battery is good to somewhere around -80 F, but a fully discharged
battery will freeze around 20 F. I always keep mine inside in the winter
or on a battery maintainer. And inside is best if you may need to install
the battery and use it as it will crank much better while warm than when sitting
outside at -40.
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:48 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
> It was true when old wives were young, and battery cases were made of hard rubber.
Once the switch was made to polypropylene or equivalent, it was no longer
true. Battery's freeze point is dependent on state of charge. Discharged it
can be close to freezing, but if fully charged it is somewhere near -70F. When
I had plane in those temps, I made sure battery was removed before reaching -40.
>
>> On 10/29/2020 6:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>> Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale.
>> Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely shorten
its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed when the battery
is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze which will really shorten
its life quickly as the case will often split and let the acid (well mostly water
once fully discharged) leak out once it thaws.
>> Matt
>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I hope everyone is doing well.
>>>
>>> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries
>>>
>>> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concrete
floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocksis that actually
true or have I just been snipe hunting all of these years (decades)?
>>>
>>> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the
way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few timesit will no
longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why would a good battery become
junk just because you left the lights on and drained it down to zero?
>>>
>>> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and a marine
battery/ deep cycle battery?
>>>
>>> Thanks everyone!!!
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lead Acid Batteries |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
Hmmm, my wife is older than I am(and a pilot), and I worked on hard
rubber case batteries in both aircraft and autos. In fact battery
recycling shops were common that melted the lead after cleaning of old
acid, made new plates, and installed in the rubber cases. Of course many
are now super fund sites. IIRC the Diehard series was one of the first
polyethylene or propylene, back in the late 60's.
Having an aircraft on open ramp in Fairbanks in the 70s, with no power
at tiedowns, had to pull battery, take home and occasionally charge.
Kelly
On 10/29/2020 8:00 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>
> I dont think any wives alive today were also around when batteries were last
made with hard rubber cases that contained carbon and were slightly porous.
>
> Yes, a fully charged battery is good to somewhere around -80 F, but a fully discharged
battery will freeze around 20 F. I always keep mine inside in the winter
or on a battery maintainer. And inside is best if you may need to install
the battery and use it as it will crank much better while warm than when sitting
outside at -40.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:48 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>>
>> It was true when old wives were young, and battery cases were made of hard rubber.
Once the switch was made to polypropylene or equivalent, it was no longer
true. Battery's freeze point is dependent on state of charge. Discharged it
can be close to freezing, but if fully charged it is somewhere near -70F. When
I had plane in those temps, I made sure battery was removed before reaching
-40.
>>
>>> On 10/29/2020 6:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>>> Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale.
>>> Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely shorten
its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed when the battery
is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze which will really shorten
its life quickly as the case will often split and let the acid (well mostly
water once fully discharged) leak out once it thaws.
>>> Matt
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I hope everyone is doing well.
>>>>
>>>> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries
>>>>
>>>> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concrete
floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocksis that
actually true or have I just been snipe hunting all of these years (decades)?
>>>>
>>>> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the
way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few timesit will no
longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why would a good battery become
junk just because you left the lights on and drained it down to zero?
>>>>
>>>> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and a marine
battery/ deep cycle battery?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks everyone!!!
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | car battery vs. deep cycle |
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
On 10/29/2020 7:32 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> the difference between a car battery and a marine battery/ deep
> cycle battery?
In order to deep cycle a battery repeatedly and not destroy it, two
things are different: the metallurgy of the lead pastes used to make it,
and the structure of the plates themselves... the metallurgy is more
forgiving of sulfation; the plate structure is stiffer... better able to
withstand sustained discharges (which might warp lesser plates/grids);
but, the stiffer grids occupy space that COULD be occupied with more
lead paste... hence reducing battery capacity, compared to
non-deep-cycle batteries.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
cluros(at)gmail.com wrote:
> ... the proven ones are the Aveo:
>
> https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/elpages/aveoultraembedded.php?clickkey=5325 (https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/elpages/aveoultraembedded.php?clickkey=5325)
Is AeroLeds not a good product?
Anyway, I think the OP is looking to replace the incandescent bulbs only. Maybe these: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/wingtipLED11-14885.php?gclid=CjwKCAjw0On8BRAgEiwAincsHC9ZYPASI-k4eNx2i1boOo1Hc2-cd1XW_G_facZVW2stvy_zPUj7ehoCN60QAvD_BwE
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499034#499034
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Marvin McGraw wrote:
>
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> > At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:
> >
> > > Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering
the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux
feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt.
> >
> > It doesn't really matter much since all busses
> > are very robust. Put all engine loads on one
> > bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be
> > fine. No more busses needed
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
> If I understand this correctly, you are saying:
> (1) do not add the engine bus
> (2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either the main bus or the aux bus
> (3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie
>
> Am I missing anything?
Hi Marvin,
Have you seen Z101? Bob N started developing it just after the OP's (Jeff Parker)
post and Jeff has moved to a schematic using Z101 as a template. It's installed
in his RV-8 project and has been powered up but not flying yet.
In case you don't have a link to the Z-dwgs they are at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
I don't know if this info helps you. I know you have Z14 flying with dual SDS EFI/I.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499035#499035
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? |
| From: | "ronaldcox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> |
billhuntersemail(at)gmail wrote:
> Does anybody recognize this nav light assembly?
>
> It currently has incandescent light bulbs for the position lights however I would
really like to change the light bulbs to LED so I was wondering if anybody
has gone down this route before and would recommend what LED light bulbs to
use?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Hunter
I bought these for my Glasair. They're brighter, and fit perfectly. Good for 10-30vdc.
But... Check the fixture/bulb first, and determine 1.) whether the current bulbs
have/need reflectors, and 2.) whether or not the pins that secure the bulbs
in the socket are offset or not. They can sell you both.
https://www.pilotlights.net/super-bright-3-watt-bay15s-bulb-position-light-navigation-light
They're nice and bright (appear subjectively a bit brighter than incandescent),
and as long as you make sure the polarity is right, they should work just fine.
(Officially, of course, for experimentals only.)
You can but several sets of these for the price of the new gold-plated Whelens.
Their customer service guy was very helpful when I had questions. His name is Robert
Cullinan, at sales(at)brittaproducts.com
In case the server stripes out the link, go to pilotlights (dot) net.
Ron
--------
Ron Cox
Glasair Super II F/T
Under Construction at C77 - Still just about to fly!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499037#499037
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ra7512_led_bulb__image_b_172.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lead Acid Batteries |
Bill,
Maybe you already do this....
Put a small "Battery Maintainer" (like a schumacher) on the battery and set
it for 13.2 to 13.4 v, and leave it.
All should be good....
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 5:37 PM wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I hope everyone is doing well.
>
> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries
>
> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the
> concrete floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood
> blocksis that actually true or have I just been =9Csnipe h
unting=9D all of
> these years (decades)?
>
> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all th
e
> way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few ti
mesit
> will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why would a good
> battery become junk just because you =9Cleft the lights on=9D
and drained it
> down to zero?
>
> Third question is what is the difference between a =9Ccar battery
=9D and a
> =9Cmarine battery/ deep cycle battery=9D?
>
> Thanks everyone!!!
>
> Bill
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B and Transponder antenna... |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Charlie,
I saw the plots, but I don't know what I'm looking at... Am I way out on frequency,
other issues? Any thoughts tyet?
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499039#499039
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B and Transponder antenna... |
On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 4:33 PM andymeyer wrote:
m
> >
>
> Charlie,
>
> I saw the plots, but I don't know what I'm looking at... Am I way out on
> frequency, other issues? Any thoughts tyet?
>
>
Unfortunately, I'm not sure what I'm seeing, either. I suspect that it has
little meaning when for a receive-only antenna, as indicated in the
conversation at this site:
https://ham.stackexchange.com/questions/382/what-is-the-relationship-betwee
n-swr-and-receive-performance#:~:text=Simplified%20answer%3A,between%20SW
R%20and%20receive%20performance.&text=SWR%20is%20a%20measure%20of,between
%20the%20transceiver%20and%20antenna.
*IF* I set up the nanoVNA correctly, the graphs indicate a worst case SWR
for the dipole of around 4, where the pointer is on the right side of the
screen. The J antenna SWR went 'off the chart' at minimal deviation above
the center frequency I used, which was the numeric midpoint between 978MHz
& 1090MHz. It should also be noted that getting my hand, or anything else,
anywhere near either antenna had significant effects on the SWR. While the
SWR looks awful, it probably has no real effect on the antennas'
performances when used only to receive a signal, as would be the case with
ADSB-in.
I'm afraid that to get any valid numbers on receive quality, we'd have to
find someone that can measure the actual signal strength on the two
frequencies of interest, when using these antennas.
As I said, I'll be happy to pass them on to someone else, if they can do a
better job in testing them.
Sorry that I haven't been able to produce more useful data.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B and Transponder antenna... |
At 10:45 AM 10/25/2020, you wrote:
>
>There's an RF Engineer who works for Tektronix, Alan Wolke, who has
>a very good YouTube channel. Among other things, he's recently been
>posting a series of videos on how to use the nanoVNA for various measurements.
>
>Note that the following playlist does not list the videos in the
>order they were posted, but I would recommend at least watching #312
>and #313 before any others.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4ZSD4omd_AylEyNCQYR3RcEb0olukPEJ
just had a chance to review the gentleman's work . . . great find
Eric . . . thanks for the head's up!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Lead Acid Batteries |
Thanks for the information on lead acid batteries...it seems that the Sears Die
Hard battery was never affected by cold temperatures (commercials never lie):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v-SSLnwVRwA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2020 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lead Acid Batteries
-->
Hmmm, my wife is older than I am(and a pilot), and I worked on hard rubber case
batteries in both aircraft and autos. In fact battery recycling shops were common
that melted the lead after cleaning of old acid, made new plates, and installed
in the rubber cases. Of course many are now super fund sites. IIRC the
Diehard series was one of the first polyethylene or propylene, back in the late
60's.
Having an aircraft on open ramp in Fairbanks in the 70s, with no power at tiedowns,
had to pull battery, take home and occasionally charge.
Kelly
On 10/29/2020 8:00 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
> -->
>
> I dont think any wives alive today were also around when batteries were last
made with hard rubber cases that contained carbon and were slightly porous.
>
> Yes, a fully charged battery is good to somewhere around -80 F, but a fully discharged
battery will freeze around 20 F. I always keep mine inside in the winter
or on a battery maintainer. And inside is best if you may need to install
the battery and use it as it will crank much better while warm than when sitting
outside at -40.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:48 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> It was true when old wives were young, and battery cases were made of hard rubber.
Once the switch was made to polypropylene or equivalent, it was no longer
true. Battery's freeze point is dependent on state of charge. Discharged it
can be close to freezing, but if fully charged it is somewhere near -70F. When
I had plane in those temps, I made sure battery was removed before reaching
-40.
>>
>>> On 10/29/2020 6:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>>> Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale.
>>> Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely shorten
its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed when the battery
is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze which will really shorten
its life quickly as the case will often split and let the acid (well mostly
water once fully discharged) leak out once it thaws.
>>> Matt
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I hope everyone is doing well.
>>>>
>>>> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries
>>>>
>>>> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concrete
floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocksis that
actually true or have I just been snipe hunting all of these years (decades)?
>>>>
>>>> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the
way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few timesit will no
longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why would a good battery become
junk just because you left the lights on and drained it down to zero?
>>>>
>>>> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and a marine
battery/ deep cycle battery?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks everyone!!!
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
Might say the most critical thing for LED life and high lumens output is
conducting heat away from the LED.
That usually means attaching heavy heat sinks.
Could we save weight by using the wing skin as a heat sink?
I understand it would present problems in adjusting (pointing) the light.
But, could we bond/attach the LED to a (alum?) plate that is then
bonded/riveted/screwed to the leading edge wing skin?
Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens). We'd have to remove 70 to
80W of heat from the LED. LED doesn't like more than 150C and it would
be better to keep it cooler. LED area 34x34mm.
I don't have a good grasp of thermal conductivity (conductance?). How
thick would the mount plate have to be? How much area would be needed
where the mount plate contacts the wing skin (using some kind of heat
sink compound/adhesive between the plate and skin)?
Am I right in assuming the plate has to be thickest were the LED is
mounted and then taper down in thickness as it expands out in width and
height?
Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with thermal epoxy) would be
better as the LED mount plate? (After a diamond, graphene or graphite
apparently has the best thermal conductivity.)
Any (thermal) engineers here that could enlighten me?
Finn
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ai - Blue Prism Training in Bangalore | Certification |
| Onli
| From: | "masko4224" <masko4224(at)gmail.com> |
Artificial intelligence, is intelligence demonstrated by machines, unlike the natural
intelligence displayed by humans and animals.
ACTE is committed to enhancing the job performance and satisfaction of its members
to increasing public awareness and appreciation for career and technical education.
Ai Training in Bangalore (https://www.acte.in/ai-artificial-intelligence-training-in-bangalore)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499053#499053
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Charles Davis <charlesdavis(at)iuncapped.co.za> |
How about ducting some of the slip-stream directly onto the heat-sink,
you could then use a MUCH smaller/lighter sink than relying on ambient
air inside the fitting
On 01/11/20 05:08 am, Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> Might say the most critical thing for LED life and high lumens output
> is conducting heat away from the LED.
>
> That usually means attaching heavy heat sinks.
>
> Could we save weight by using the wing skin as a heat sink?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics List Fund Raiser Postponed During 2020... |
Dear Listers,
Normally, in November I hold a List Fund Raiser where I ask Listers to make a Contribution
to support the operation and upkeep of these List resources.
In light of the happenings during this 2020 season, I have decided to postpone
the Fund Raiser this year and encourage members to focus on their families and
personal needs.
I want to thank everyone that has supported the Lists in the past. Despite the
uncertain times we're experiencing right now, I want to assure everyone that
I fully intend to continue supporting the Lists as I always have; with no anticipated
degradation in service levels.
Happy Holidays to all my friends around the world!
Matt Dralle
Matronics List Manager
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Bartrim <bartrim(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
Hi Finn;
This may not be using the skin as a heat sink, but it works great and is
lightweight.
I bought some of these lights from Amazon and took them apart to make my
landing lights.
https://www.amazon.ca/Lightfox-Driving-Offroad-Waterproof-Warranty/dp/B01M9
8GWR2/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=31MNRKKNOSJAA&dchild=1&keywords=led+spot
+lights+offroad&qid=1604214923&sprefix=led+spot+%2Caps%2C274&sr=8-2-s
pons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEySTdLUVhZSDFQQTEmZW5jcnlwdGV
kSWQ9QTA2NDM1NzcyUVdZV1QyR0tJS1dRJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwNzU1NTUzSzVRRTYzNT
ZSUjZHJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY
2s9dHJ1ZQ=
this is from Amazon's Canada site, but I'm sure you can find them even
cheaper on the US site.
Then I took them apart as you can see in these pictures posted here on
Google photos
https://photos.app.goo.gl/S68h3zpVy7RVJDTT8
I can't remember how much weight I discarded from the parts I removed, but
it was most of the weight of the light.
The mounting plate was originally part of the Duckworths landing light that
I wasted my money on. That is a simple part to make. I have 2 of those
mounted mid wing and are pointed down for use as taxi lights, then I
mounted 2 into the wingtips (required some fibreglass work) and have them
pointed straight ahead for landing lights.
These lights are very durable and bright. I must have bought more than a
dozen so far as I've put some on my truck, my son's Jeep, my skidsteer, 4
on the plane and probably the harshest duty is the pair I put on my ATV,
which are thoroughly abused. They are extremely bright in the bush with
very little current draw so my ATV has no problem running them
continuously. I think those ones are at least 4 years old and are still
working great despite the abuse.
It looks like there are even better versions of these lights now, that
appear to be the same construction so you can still dismantle them to get
the good parts only.
Todd Bartrim
RV9
13Bturbo
On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:20 PM Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> Might say the most critical thing for LED life and high lumens output is
> conducting heat away from the LED.
>
> That usually means attaching heavy heat sinks.
>
> Could we save weight by using the wing skin as a heat sink?
>
> I understand it would present problems in adjusting (pointing) the light.
>
> But, could we bond/attach the LED to a (alum?) plate that is then
> bonded/riveted/screwed to the leading edge wing skin?
>
> Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens). We'd have to remove 70 to
> 80W of heat from the LED. LED doesn't like more than 150=C2=B0C and it wo
uld
> be better to keep it cooler. LED area 34x34mm.
>
> I don't have a good grasp of thermal conductivity (conductance?). How
> thick would the mount plate have to be? How much area would be needed
> where the mount plate contacts the wing skin (using some kind of heat
> sink compound/adhesive between the plate and skin)?
>
> Am I right in assuming the plate has to be thickest were the LED is
> mounted and then taper down in thickness as it expands out in width and
> height?
>
> Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with thermal epoxy) would be
> better as the LED mount plate? (After a diamond, graphene or graphite
> apparently has the best thermal conductivity.)
>
> Any (thermal) engineers here that could enlighten me?
>
> Finn
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Bartrim <bartrim(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
Ooops, that was the link for my own collection of reference photos,
This is the one you need to see how I did the lights
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wQvyosNK1QBFjz7c8
Todd Bartrim
On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 12:54 AM Todd Bartrim wrote:
> Hi Finn;
> This may not be using the skin as a heat sink, but it works great and i
s
> lightweight.
> I bought some of these lights from Amazon and took them apart to make my
> landing lights.
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/Lightfox-Driving-Offroad-Waterproof-Warranty/dp/B01
M98GWR2/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=31MNRKKNOSJAA&dchild=1&keywords=led+sp
ot+lights+offroad&qid=1604214923&sprefix=led+spot+%2Caps%2C274&sr=8-2
-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEySTdLUVhZSDFQQTEmZW5jcnlwd
GVkSWQ9QTA2NDM1NzcyUVdZV1QyR0tJS1dRJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwNzU1NTUzSzVRRTYz
NTZSUjZHJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2x
pY2s9dHJ1ZQ=
> this is from Amazon's Canada site, but I'm sure you can find them even
> cheaper on the US site.
> Then I took them apart as you can see in these pictures posted here on
> Google photos
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/S68h3zpVy7RVJDTT8
> I can't remember how much weight I discarded from the parts I removed, bu
t
> it was most of the weight of the light.
> The mounting plate was originally part of the Duckworths landing light
> that I wasted my money on. That is a simple part to make. I have 2 of tho
se
> mounted mid wing and are pointed down for use as taxi lights, then I
> mounted 2 into the wingtips (required some fibreglass work) and have them
> pointed straight ahead for landing lights.
> These lights are very durable and bright. I must have bought more than a
> dozen so far as I've put some on my truck, my son's Jeep, my skidsteer, 4
> on the plane and probably the harshest duty is the pair I put on my ATV,
> which are thoroughly abused. They are extremely bright in the bush with
> very little current draw so my ATV has no problem running them
> continuously. I think those ones are at least 4 years old and are still
> working great despite the abuse.
> It looks like there are even better versions of these lights now, that
> appear to be the same construction so you can still dismantle them to get
> the good parts only.
>
> Todd Bartrim
> RV9
> 13Bturbo
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:20 PM Finn Lassen wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Might say the most critical thing for LED life and high lumens output is
>> conducting heat away from the LED.
>>
>> That usually means attaching heavy heat sinks.
>>
>> Could we save weight by using the wing skin as a heat sink?
>>
>> I understand it would present problems in adjusting (pointing) the light
.
>>
>> But, could we bond/attach the LED to a (alum?) plate that is then
>> bonded/riveted/screwed to the leading edge wing skin?
>>
>> Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens). We'd have to remove 70 to
>> 80W of heat from the LED. LED doesn't like more than 150=C2=B0C and it w
ould
>> be better to keep it cooler. LED area 34x34mm.
>>
>> I don't have a good grasp of thermal conductivity (conductance?). How
>> thick would the mount plate have to be? How much area would be needed
>> where the mount plate contacts the wing skin (using some kind of heat
>> sink compound/adhesive between the plate and skin)?
>>
>> Am I right in assuming the plate has to be thickest were the LED is
>> mounted and then taper down in thickness as it expands out in width and
>> height?
>>
>> Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with thermal epoxy) would be
>> better as the LED mount plate? (After a diamond, graphene or graphite
>> apparently has the best thermal conductivity.)
>>
>> Any (thermal) engineers here that could enlighten me?
>>
>> Finn
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lead Acid Batteries |
>
>
>Second question is about allowing a lead acid
>battery to discharge all the way down to zero=85or
>if it had gotten severely discharged a few
>timmes=85it will no longer be serviceable.=C2 Is
>this accurate?=C2 If so why would a good battery
>become junk just because you =9Cleft the lights
>on=9D and drained it down to zero?
It's not a 'sudden death' phenomenon. In fact, to achieve
TSO qualification on aircraft batteries, one of the tests
is to completely discharge the battery, place a dead short
on it for a period of time (don't recall the interval off
top of my head) and the conduct a 'recovery charging protocol'.
But leaving a lead-acid battery in a discharged state
accelerates corrosion of the positive plate which
ultimately trashes the battery.
>Third question is what is the difference between
>a =9Ccar battery=9D and a =9Cmarine battery/ deep cycle
battery=9D?
Here's an excellent article that speaks to that
topic . . . among others.
https://tinyurl.com/y69ltgh6
By the way, there's a constellation of excellent
articles on the characteristics and maintenance
of various battery chemistries on this website:
https://tinyurl.com/yalty6y7
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
That would introduce drag.
Name of the game here is no drag and lowest possible weight for max
light output (lumens) directed in a narrow beam that can reach 3,000
feet or more down a deer infested runway.
If it wasn't for needing the reflector to concentrate the light in a
beam, we could simply mount the LED chip flush with the wing skin, using
an alum backing plate (about the thickness of the one the LED chips
comes bonded to, I guess) and the wing skin would be a perfect heat sink.
My thermodynamic question comes into play as we move the LED chip
further back from the leading edge wing skin. Surely someone has
experience in designing heat sinks and what's required in terms of
conducting the heat from the point where a chip is mounted and out into
the fins exposed to air. Hopefully the thousands of heat sink design you
see are not all the result of trial and error. There must be some
physics (thermodynamics?) behind it.
Finn
On 11/1/2020 1:38 AM, Charles Davis wrote:
>
>
> How about ducting some of the slip-stream directly onto the heat-sink,
> you could then use a MUCH smaller/lighter sink than relying on ambient
> air inside the fitting
>
>
> On 01/11/20 05:08 am, Finn Lassen wrote:
>>
>>
>> Might say the most critical thing for LED life and high lumens output
>> is conducting heat away from the LED.
>>
>> That usually means attaching heavy heat sinks.
>>
>> Could we save weight by using the wing skin as a heat sink?
>>
>>
>
>
---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
>
>Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens).
>We'd have to remove 70 to 80W of heat from the LED.
>LED doesn't like more than 150=C2=B0C and it would
>be better to keep it cooler. LED area 34x34mm.
Don't think it's quite that bad. LED efficiency is on the order of
35 to 40% which would dump 60 to 65 watts of heat.
>I don't have a good grasp of thermal
>conductivity (conductance?). How thick would the mount
>plate have to be? How much area would be needed
>where the mount plate contacts the wing
>skin (using some kind of heat sink
>compound/adhesive between the plate and skin)?
The flow of heat energy is analogous to the flow
of electrical energy. Temperature rise is 'Volts'.
Thermal resistance is 'Ohms' and Watts is still
watts. Configuring thermal management for an
LED is identical to that of say a power transistor.
The working part of the LED has a known thermal
resistance between the semiconductor junction
and the heat sinking surface or case. It can
be stated in degrees C per watt. So if you
have a junction dissipating 100 watts of heat
and it's packaged thermal resistance is say
1C/W then the junction is going to operate
at 100C HIGHER than the heat sinking surface.
If the thing is limited to 150C then you have
to maintain the case at 50C.
There will be a thermal resistance associated
with the mounting of the device to the
heat sink . . . add say 0.25C/W. Adding up
the resistances we're at 1.25C/W . . . 100
Watts will drop 125C so now your heatsink
has to operate at 25C.
These resistance numbers are pulled out of
my hat . . . but you get the picture.
Now we get to the proposed 'heat sink'. Just
how good is it. VERY difficult to calculate
if complex like structure of an airplane.
Best way to test it is bolt a power resistor
to the LED mounting surface and cause it
to dissipate X watts. Thermocouple the area
under the resistor to get degrees C/Watt
of thermal resistance.
Now to throw a really big monkey wrench into
the study. AIR FLOW has a PROFOUND influence
on thermal resistance. Those tiny chips in
your computer dissipate a bucket load of heat
in terms of their mass. The heat sink on your
CPU has lots of SURFACE area and a FAN.
The only time your LED nav lights are at
risk for thermal abuse is while sitting
on the ground or taxi. If I were designing
an LED fixture, I'd probably include
over temperature sensing to dim the lighting
to prevent thermal damage. Once airborne,
you'll have plenty of air flow.
I suspect the 'big guys' in aviation lighting
already do this. After all, there are TSO
requirements for thermal robustness that
have to be met and by now, they're very
good at it. If you're looking at a DIY
LED illumination project, start with a study
of how the big guys do it.
When assigned a task for development of
a new product in years past, one of the
first things I would do it search out
the patents on legacy technology. HISTORY
can give you a leg up on avoiding
exercises in re-invention.
>Am I right in assuming the plate has to be
>thickest were the LED is mounted and then taper
>down in thickness as it expands out in width and height?
No . . . thermal resistance of base material,
surface area and AIRFLOW . . . but without
a doubt, include ELECTRONIC overheat
protection.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Todd. There are a multitude of LED solutions out there. I have a
$20 4oz Trustfire 3T6 flashlight head that puts out 1,300 lumens
(actually capable of 3,300 if I can get to and modify the internal
driver in it and add proper cooling).
However , the 10 watt Cree XM-L2 or similar LED chips can now be had for
$1.64 each. That's about 1,160 lumens if fed 10 watts. The newer XHP35,
XHP72, etc. may or may not be slightly more efficient, but puts out
light from a more dense location but are more expensive.
The point here is that the LED solutions all come with (heavy) heat
sinks. Even the drivers will need some cooling (think mounting the
driver ICs/diodes on a wing rib).
70 to 80% of the power being fed to the LED chips needs to be dissipated
as heat. That's right, LEDs are not more than 20 to 30% efficient!
All commercial and DIY LED landing light solutions I've seen so far come
stand-alone. But why not design it into the aircraft? I guess not
everyone is a weight freak like me.
Reason for using flashlight (torch) heads is they come with reflectors
-- trick is to find ones with a narrow beam and low loss reflector and
not having to pay for battery holder tube, heat sink, batteries etc.
etc. But they all come with integrated drivers and heat sinks.
Some torches come with adjustable beam, but from what I've read they
have rather lossy reflectors.
Now, a reflector like this https://www.stratusleds.com/module should
probably do it, although I don't know the beam width. That's what
started me thinking about using the LE wing skin as the heat sink. Needs
a mount plate that can transfer the 70 or 80 watts of heat from the
34x34mm LED chip base to a sufficient area of wing skin. What's the heat
"resistance" of 0.025 thick alum?
Finn
On 11/1/2020 2:58 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote:
> Ooops, that was the link for my own collection of reference photos,
> This is the one you need to see how I did the lights
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/wQvyosNK1QBFjz7c8
> Todd Bartrim
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 12:54 AM Todd Bartrim > wrote:
>
> Hi Finn;
> This may not be using the skin as a heat sink, but it works
> great and is lightweight.
> I bought some of these lights from Amazon and took them apart to
> make my landing lights.
> https://www.amazon.ca/Lightfox-Driving-Offroad-Waterproof-Warranty/dp/B01M98GWR2/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=31MNRKKNOSJAA&dchild=1&keywords=led+spot+lights+offroad&qid=1604214923&sprefix=led+spot+%2Caps%2C274&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEySTdLUVhZSDFQQTEmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA2NDM1NzcyUVdZV1QyR0tJS1dRJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwNzU1NTUzSzVRRTYzNTZSUjZHJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ=
> this is from Amazon's Canada site, but I'm sure you can find them
> even cheaper on the US site.
> Then I took them apart as you can see in thesepictures posted
> here on Google photos
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/S68h3zpVy7RVJDTT8
> I can't rememberhow much weight I discarded from the parts I
> removed, but it was most of the weight of the light.
> The mounting plate was originally part of the Duckworths landing
> light that I wasted my money on. That is a simple part to make. I
> have 2 of those mounted mid wing and are pointed down for use as
> taxi lights, then I mounted 2 into the wingtips (required some
> fibreglass work) and have them pointed straight ahead for landing
> lights.
> These lights are very durable and bright. I must have bought more
> than a dozen so far as I've put some on my truck, my son's Jeep,
> my skidsteer, 4 on the plane and probably the harshest duty is the
> pair I put on my ATV, which are thoroughly abused. They are
> extremely bright in the bush with very little current draw so my
> ATV has no problem running them continuously. I think those ones
> are at least 4 years old and are still working great despite the
> abuse.
> It looks like there are even better versions of these lights
> now, that appear to be the same construction so you can still
> dismantle them to get the good parts only.
>
> Todd Bartrim
> RV9
> 13Bturbo
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:20 PM Finn Lassen > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Might say the most critical thing for LED life and high lumens
> output is
> conducting heat away from the LED.
>
> That usually means attaching heavy heat sinks.
>
> Could we save weight by using the wing skin as a heat sink?
>
> I understand it would present problems in adjusting (pointing)
> the light.
>
> But, could we bond/attach the LED to a (alum?) plate that is then
> bonded/riveted/screwed to the leading edge wing skin?
>
> Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens). We'd have to
> remove 70 to
> 80W of heat from the LED. LED doesn't like more than 150C and
> it would
> be better to keep it cooler. LED area 34x34mm.
>
> I don't have a good grasp of thermal conductivity
> (conductance?). How
> thick would the mount plate have to be? How much area would be
> needed
> where the mount plate contacts the wing skin (using some kind
> of heat
> sink compound/adhesive between the plate and skin)?
>
> Am I right in assuming the plate has to be thickest were the
> LED is
> mounted and then taper down in thickness as it expands out in
> width and
> height?
>
> Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with thermal epoxy)
> would be
> better as the LED mount plate? (After a diamond, graphene or
> graphite
> apparently has the best thermal conductivity.)
>
> Any (thermal) engineers here that could enlighten me?
>
> Finn
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
>Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens). We'd have to remove 70
>to 80W of heat from the LED.
AND the associated electronics.
See attached:
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
At 07:46 AM 11/1/2020, you wrote:
>
>That would introduce drag.
>
>Name of the game here is no drag and lowest possible weight for max
>light output (lumens) directed in a narrow beam that can reach 3,000
>feet or more down a deer infested runway.
Save yourself a LOT of fuss and bother.
Consider adapting a COTs LED assembly
to your task. There's a boat-load of
really capable emitters with built
in power supplies and cooling. I got
'em on all my vehicles.
Dirt is more expensive . . .
https://tinyurl.com/y5kky5f6
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Sorry, I was looking at the Cree XM-L2. 116 l/w. 116/350 = 33%. At
least 5% loss in the driver. So about 31% or 69% heat dissipation. (Not
sure about optical efficiency. I guess that's heat in the lens and
reflector.)
So thickness of mount plate should not be a factor? A 10W LED I have has
a 1.6mm thick metal base, but I guess that's needed to screw it down to
heat sink with proper contact (minimal heat sink compound thickness).
Alum: 205 W/mK or 0.205W/C. But, but ... is cross area not a factor?
Trying to compare it to electrical resistance in a wire. The higher the
cross area -- the less resistance.
Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact area
under the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out in area.
Seems mounting it to an infinite piece of alum foil would not be the
same as mounting it to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum plate ...
Finn
On 11/1/2020 9:25 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens). We'd have to remove 70
>> to 80W of heat from the LED.
>
> AND the associated electronics.
>
> See attached:
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
I got might lights from https://www.mpja.com/20-30-50-Watt-LEDs/products/5
80/
The drivers are riveted to the wing skin and the LED riveted to a plate of
.080" aluminum.=C2- They were then riveted to Zenith's mount plate (I hav
e a 601XL).=C2- I didn't bother to use any reflectors, as the LEDs tend t
o concentrate light in one area.=C2- One 30W driver wiill handle three 10
W LEDs.=C2- That will spread the heat out.=C2-
Cooling air is provided by a 1/8" hole drilled to stop a crack in the plexi
glass cover=C2- :-)=C2- If anyone can measure the drag of that 1/8" hol
e, you're smart enough that I want to be your friend.
il.com> wrote:
Sorry, I was looking at the Cree XM-L2.=C2- 116 l/w. 116/350 = 33%. At
least 5% loss in the driver. So about 31% or 69% heat dissipation. (Not sur
e about optical efficiency. I guess that's heat in the lens and reflector.)
So thickness of mount plate should not be a factor? A 10W LED I have has a
1.6mm thick metal base, but I guess that's needed to screw it down to heat
sink with proper contact (minimal heat sink compound thickness).
Alum: 205 W/mK or 0.205W/C. But, but ... is cross area not a factor? Trying
to compare it to electrical resistance in a wire.=C2- The higher the cro
ss area -- the less resistance.
Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact area under t
he LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out in area. Seems mountin
g it to an infinite piece of alum foil would not be the same as mounting it
to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum plate ...
Finn
On 11/1/2020 9:25 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens). We'd have to remove 70 to 80W
of heat from the LED.
=C2- AND the associated electronics.
=C2-
=C2- See attached:
=C2- Bob . . .
| | Virus-free. www.avast.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat |
sink?
>
>
>Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact area
>under the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out in area.
>Seems mounting it to an infinite piece of alum foil would not be the
>same as mounting it to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum plate ...
But the sheet has thermal resistance too. And
rate of dissipation is a function of temperature
differential. As you move out onto the sheet,
the fastest transfer is right around the base
of the LED; temperatures fall as you move
out hence energy dissipated per unit area
declines.
Intuitively, it makes sense that 'sink'
temperature at the base of the LED will
be much higher than at a remote location.
Are we talking about landing lights?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat |
sink?
At 11:03 AM 11/1/2020, you wrote:
>>Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact area
>>under the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out in
>>area. Seems mounting it to an infinite piece of alum foil would not
>>be the same as mounting it to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum plate ...
>
> But the sheet has thermal resistance too. And
> rate of dissipation is a function of temperature
> differential. As you move out onto the sheet,
> the fastest transfer is right around the base
> of the LED; temperatures fall as you move
> out hence energy dissipated per unit area
> declines.
>
> Intuitively, it makes sense that 'sink'
> temperature at the base of the LED will
> be much higher than at a remote location.
>
> Are we talking about landing lights?
Duuh . . . need another cup of coffee . . .
Is this the kind of critter we're talking
about?
https://tinyurl.com/y4tespt7
Do you have a link to share for the
exact device and its spec sheet?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
On 11/1/2020 12:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>>
>> Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact area
>> under the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out in area.
>> Seems mounting it to an infinite piece of alum foil would not be the
>> same as mounting it to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum plate ...
>
> But the sheet has thermal resistance too. And
> rate of dissipation is a function of temperature
> differential. As you move out onto the sheet,
> the fastest transfer is right around the base
> of the LED; temperatures fall as you move
> out hence energy dissipated per unit area
> declines.
>
> Intuitively, it makes sense that 'sink'
> temperature at the base of the LED will
> be much higher than at a remote location.
>
> Are we talking about landing lights?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Yes landing lights.
So my understanding is right. Thicker plate near LED base, then tapering
out. You'll also see that in old big heat sinks: thick base then fins
tapering out. I guess optimal design is total surface area versus
enough material to conduct the heat to the entire surface (when
designing for least weight). Some newer heat sinks I've seen have
numerous rods sticking out from the base. Perhaps (for least weight) the
rods should actually be tapered.
This my original question: "Am I right in assuming the plate has to be
thickest were the LED is mounted and then taper down in thickness as it
expands out in width and height?"
Another interesting item from Googling "best thermal conductivity":
"Along with its carbon cousins graphite and graphene, diamond is the
best thermal conductor around room temperature, having thermal
conductivity of more than 2,000 watts per meter per Kelvin, which is
five times higher than the best metals such as *copper*."
leading to my: "Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with thermal
epoxy) would be better as the LED mount plate? (After a diamond,
graphene or graphite apparently has the best thermal conductivity.)"
One could shape the carbon fiber layup to closely fit the leading edge skin.
I guess I'm thinking way, way, way too far out of the box :)
Finn
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Yes, that's where I got the position and strobe LEDs I'm working with at
the moment, thanks to your posting here a long time ago.
Got 5 of the 10W super white LEDs. One for tail position/strobe. Two for
each wingtip strobe.I also got the 10W green and red ones for wing
position lights.
The tail LED will be driven with 300mA (via series diode) as a position
light and then high-current pulses for strobing it.
I've read of over-driving LEDs for strobes. Max specs for the 10W LEDs
says 1 amp, 1.5A peak. I would like to give them a 100ms (or less) 10A
pulse. My big question is if that would violate the 1.5A peak spec.
Fiddling with a LM324 quad single-supply op-amp. Looking at application
examples I found that it's actually possible to make just one op-amp
generate 100ms pulses every 1 sec with 5 resistors, one capacitor and
one diode. Also can run directly on ship's power. (max 32V). Now I'm
looking for a P-channel MOSFET to drive the LED to max voltage. I guess
I could use a PNP power transistor I've got laying around ...
Finn
On 11/1/2020 11:06 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> I got might lights from
> https://www.mpja.com/20-30-50-Watt-LEDs/products/580/
>
> The drivers are riveted to the wing skin and the LED riveted to a
> plate of .080" aluminum. They were then riveted to Zenith's mount
> plate (I have a 601XL). I didn't bother to use any reflectors, as the
> LEDs tend to concentrate light in one area. One 30W driver wiill
> handle three 10W LEDs. That will spread the heat out.
>
> Cooling air is provided by a 1/8" hole drilled to stop a crack in the
> plexiglass cover :-) If anyone can measure the drag of that 1/8"
> hole, you're smart enough that I want to be your friend.
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, I was looking at the Cree XM-L2. 116 l/w. 116/350 = 33%. At
> least 5% loss in the driver. So about 31% or 69% heat dissipation.
> (Not sure about optical efficiency. I guess that's heat in the lens
> and reflector.)
>
> So thickness of mount plate should not be a factor? A 10W LED I have
> has a 1.6mm thick metal base, but I guess that's needed to screw it
> down to heat sink with proper contact (minimal heat sink compound
> thickness).
>
> Alum: 205 W/mK or 0.205W/C. But, but ... is cross area not a factor?
> Trying to compare it to electrical resistance in a wire. The higher
> the cross area -- the less resistance.
>
> Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact area
> under the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out in area.
> Seems mounting it to an infinite piece of alum foil would not be the
> same as mounting it to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum plate ...
>
> Finn
>
>
> On 11/1/2020 9:25 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>> Let's say we use a 100W LED (~13,000 lumens). We'd have to remove 70
>>> to 80W of heat from the LED.
>>
>> AND the associated electronics.
>>
>> See attached:
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 12:59 PM Finn Lassen wrote:
>
>
> On 11/1/2020 12:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact area under
> the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out in area. Seems
> mounting it to an infinite piece of alum foil would not be the same as
> mounting it to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum plate ...
>
>
> But the sheet has thermal resistance too. And
> rate of dissipation is a function of temperature
> differential. As you move out onto the sheet,
> the fastest transfer is right around the base
> of the LED; temperatures fall as you move
> out hence energy dissipated per unit area
> declines.
>
> Intuitively, it makes sense that 'sink'
> temperature at the base of the LED will
> be much higher than at a remote location.
>
> Are we talking about landing lights?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Yes landing lights.
>
> So my understanding is right. Thicker plate near LED base, then tapering
> out. You'll also see that in old big heat sinks: thick base then fins
> tapering out. I guess optimal design is total surface area versus enough
> material to conduct the heat to the entire surface (when designing for
> least weight). Some newer heat sinks I've seen have numerous rods sticking
> out from the base. Perhaps (for least weight) the rods should actually be
> tapered.
>
> This my original question: "Am I right in assuming the plate has to be
> thickest were the LED is mounted and then taper down in thickness as it
> expands out in width and height?"
>
> Another interesting item from Googling "best thermal conductivity":
> "Along with its carbon cousins graphite and graphene, diamond is the best
> thermal conductor around room temperature, having thermal conductivity of
> more than 2,000 watts per meter per Kelvin, which is five times higher than
> the best metals such as *copper*."
>
> leading to my: "Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with thermal
> epoxy) would be better as the LED mount plate? (After a diamond, graphene
> or graphite apparently has the best thermal conductivity.)"
>
> One could shape the carbon fiber layup to closely fit the leading edge
> skin.
>
> I guess I'm thinking way, way, way too far out of the box :)
>
> Finn
>
Jim Weir has a couple of articles in Kitplanes magazine that give a
'cookbook' method of figuring heatsink size. I don't know, but strongly
suspect that the epoxy used as a binder in a typical carbon layup will more
than kill any thermal advantage of the carbon. How about some aluminum
flashing sheet? Bend up multiple ' [ ' channels with increasing center
widths, stack up up 'concentric' drill for the LED base, then reassemble
with heat sink compound. Not perfect, but a lot faster/cheaper than carbon,
and you get the extra thickness next to the LED.
Of course, by the time you do all that, you'll have spent more in
parts/labor than the FlyLEDs light we talked about, off-line. :-) I doubt
it will be much lighter, either.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
Another option is to mount the LED in the center of a disk.=C2- Drill a
ring of 1/8" holes right up next to the LED.=C2- Then a ring of 3/16" hol
es a little further out.=C2- Then a ring of 1/4", etc.The plate provides
a way to mount to the wing.
7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 12:59 PM Finn Lassen wrote:
On 11/1/2020 12:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact area under
the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out in area. Seems mounti
ng it to an infinite piece of alum foil would not be the same as mounting i
t to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum plate ...
=C2- But the sheet has thermal resistance too. And
=C2- rate of dissipation is a function of temperature
=C2- differential. As you move out onto the sheet,
=C2- the fastest transfer is right around the base
=C2- of the LED; temperatures fall as you move
=C2- out hence energy dissipated per unit area
=C2- declines.
=C2- Intuitively, it makes sense that 'sink'
=C2- temperature at the base of the LED will
=C2- be much higher than at a remote location.
=C2- Are we talking about landing lights?
=C2- Bob . . .
Yes landing lights.
So my understanding is right. Thicker plate near LED base, then tapering o
ut. You'll also see that in old big heat sinks: thick base then fins taperi
ng out.=C2- I guess optimal design is=C2- total surface area versus eno
ugh material to conduct the heat to the entire surface (when designing for
least weight). Some newer heat sinks I've seen have numerous rods sticking
out from the base. Perhaps (for least weight) the rods should actually be t
apered.
This my original question: "Am I right in assuming the plate has to be thi
ckest were the LED is mounted and then taper down in thickness as it expand
s out in width and height?"
Another interesting item from Googling "best thermal conductivity":
"Along with its carbon cousins graphite and graphene, diamond is the best
thermal conductor around room temperature, having thermal conductivity of m
ore than 2,000 watts per meter per Kelvin, which is five times higher than
the best metals such as copper."
leading to my: "Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with thermal epoxy
) would be better as the LED mount plate? (After a diamond, graphene or gra
phite apparently has the best thermal conductivity.)"
One could shape the carbon fiber layup to closely fit the leading edge ski
n.
I guess I'm thinking way, way, way too far out of the box :)
Finn
Jim Weir has a couple of articles in Kitplanes magazine that give a 'cookbo
ok' method of figuring heatsink size.=C2- I don't know, but strongly susp
ect that the epoxy used as a binder in a typical carbon layup will more tha
n kill any thermal advantage of the carbon. How about some aluminum flashin
g sheet? Bend up multiple ' [ ' channels with increasing center widths, sta
ck up up 'concentric' drill for the LED base, then reassemble with heat sin
k compound. Not perfect, but a lot faster/cheaper than carbon, and you get
the extra thickness next to the LED.=C2-
Of course, by the time you do all that, you'll have spent more in parts/lab
or than the FlyLEDs light we talked about, off-line. :-) I doubt it will be
much lighter, either.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Microair 760 transceivers for sale |
A subscriber to this List has determined
that a couple of Microair 760 transceivers
are surplus to his needs. He asked my assistance
with getting them into new homes.
I've listed them on eBay at auction. All proceeds
will go to Matt Dralle to support his closet
full of byte-thrashers that make all this
good stuff run!
The first is a 7 day listing up now at
https://tinyurl.com/y2lobwew
The second listing is a 10 day auction
post the link later.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Breaker then pump failure |
>Bob, if I get the old pump back, I'll send it to you along with the
breaker.
Thanks
>BTW, I just became aware of an AD from=C2 2008 to
>replace this type of CB switch in Beechcraft products.
Bingo . . . I worked the failure analysis team
on that fiasco.
As I recall, the risk of failure came to light
when a pilot reported, "smoke squirting from
around the handle on the prop de-ice switch
breaker."
Here's link to relevant pictures and
documents:
https://tinyurl.com/y48y93rk
That was a real can of worms.
There were tens of thousands of switch breakers
in the field covering decades of production in
Bonanzas and Barons. Being a commercial off the
shelf product, it was unclear which fielded
aircraft might be vulnerable to this condition.
I.e. smoke AFTER failure of the braid.
As it turns out, only the prop de-ice switch
breaker had a risk for generating some smoke.
Switches carrying lower currents would
continue to function although loss of the
braided jumper on alternator control switches
increased field supply path resistance
which MIGHT lead to regulator instability.
It was finally deduced that this failure
did not represent any greater hazard than
failure of the protected device . . . hence
removal/replacement of a breaker could
be left 'on condition' as opposed to a fleet
wide swap out.
Of course, ongoing production and spares
breakers have the magic insulator so
the risk of smoke has been mitigated
for the future.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
>> Are we talking about landing lights?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>Yes landing lights.
Okay . . . in the right pew now.
Is there an engineering data spec sheet available
for the device(s) you're considering?
Do you know the thermal resistance from mounting
surface to LED junction?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Cool. But how thick should the disk be?
I don't know why I'm so thermodynamics challenged ...
A Google search finds that alum has a thermal resistance of 0.5W/C. But
what does that mean? There's got to be a formula that includes material
thickness and area.
Electrical resistance in a wire includes cross section (area) of wire
and length. Surely something similar must be the case for thermal
resistance or conductivity.
Charlie, can you point me to the Kitplanes article?
Finn
On 11/1/2020 4:18 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> Another option is to mount the LED in the center of a disk. Drill a
> ring of 1/8" holes right up next to the LED. Then a ring of 3/16"
> holes a little further out. Then a ring of 1/4", etc.The plate
> provides a way to mount to the wing.
>
> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 12:59 PM Finn Lassen > wrote:
>
>
> On 11/1/2020 12:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact
>>> area under the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands out
>>> in area. Seems mounting it to an infinite piece of alum foil
>>> would not be the same as mounting it to 10x10" 0.063" thick alum
>>> plate ...
>>
>> But the sheet has thermal resistance too. And
>> rate of dissipation is a function of temperature
>> differential. As you move out onto the sheet,
>> the fastest transfer is right around the base
>> of the LED; temperatures fall as you move
>> out hence energy dissipated per unit area
>> declines.
>>
>> Intuitively, it makes sense that 'sink'
>> temperature at the base of the LED will
>> be much higher than at a remote location.
>>
>> Are we talking about landing lights?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
> Yes landing lights.
>
> So my understanding is right. Thicker plate near LED base, then
> tapering out. You'll also see that in old big heat sinks: thick
> base then fins tapering out. I guess optimal design is total
> surface area versus enough material to conduct the heat to the
> entire surface (when designing for least weight). Some newer heat
> sinks I've seen have numerous rods sticking out from the base.
> Perhaps (for least weight) the rods should actually be tapered.
>
> This my original question: "Am I right in assuming the plate has
> to be thickest were the LED is mounted and then taper down in
> thickness as it expands out in width and height?"
>
> Another interesting item from Googling "best thermal conductivity":
> "Along with its carbon cousins graphite and graphene, diamond is
> the best thermal conductor around room temperature, having thermal
> conductivity of more than 2,000 watts per meter per Kelvin, which
> is five times higher than the best metals such as *copper*."
>
> leading to my: "Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with
> thermal epoxy) would be better as the LED mount plate? (After a
> diamond, graphene or graphite apparently has the best thermal
> conductivity.)"
>
> One could shape the carbon fiber layup to closely fit the leading
> edge skin.
>
> I guess I'm thinking way, way, way too far out of the box :)
>
> Finn
>
> Jim Weir has a couple of articles in Kitplanes magazine that give a
> 'cookbook' method of figuring heatsink size. I don't know, but
> strongly suspect that the epoxy used as a binder in a typical carbon
> layup will more than kill any thermal advantage of the carbon. How
> about some aluminum flashing sheet? Bend up multiple ' [ ' channels
> with increasing center widths, stack up up 'concentric' drill for the
> LED base, then reassemble with heat sink compound. Not perfect, but a
> lot faster/cheaper than carbon, and you get the extra thickness next
> to the LED.
>
> Of course, by the time you do all that, you'll have spent more in
> parts/labor than the FlyLEDs light we talked about, off-line. :-) I
> doubt it will be much lighter, either.
>
> Charlie
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
On 11/1/2020 6:37 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>> Are we talking about landing lights?
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>
>
>> Yes landing lights.
>
> Okay . . . in the right pew now.
>
> Is there an engineering data spec sheet available
> for the device(s) you're considering?
>
> Do you know the thermal resistance from mounting
> surface to LED junction?
>
> Bob . . .
>
Looking at the Cree XM-L2 with a thermal resistance of 2.5W/C from
junction to mount surface. Add to that a conservative 0.5W/C for heat
sink compound and we get 3W/C.
Max die temp is 150C. But unlimited life is 35C. It appears that when
you go above 35C you start reducing life of the LED.
The LEDs are "binned" (color and efficiency determined) at 85C.
So lets set die temp of 85C as the design goal.
With built-in temp limiting, I think we can probably consider wing skin
to air thermal resistance as 0W/C (air flowing over the skin in flight).
Consider 32C ambient we get 85 -3 -32 = 50 allowed temp difference from
mount plate to skin.
Each LED has a mount surface of about 20x20mm.
If we have eight 10W LEDs at 30% efficiency, we need to get rid of 56 watts.
So max thermal resistance of mount plate and mount late to wing skin
should be 56/50 = 1.1W/C. If we use heat sink compound between plate and
wing skin, we're down to 0.6W/C max thermal resistance of the mount
plate. Wow! Can that be right?
If alum has thermal resistance of 0.2 W/C we need 3 of something. What
is the something? Thickness vs area? This is where I bog down.
Finn
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B and Transponder antenna... |
| From: | "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
Here's another useful resource for learning the nanoVNA. It's a demo board that
you connect to the device in order to learn what the test response should look
like for various kinds of circuits.
https://preview.tinyurl.com/yxz2hast
I bought one and it seems to be well made. My only complaint is the tiny U.FL
connectors they used on the board. They're a bit of a pain to mate, and they're
only designed for a few dozen mating cycles, so it's not a lifetime tool.
But hey, whaddya want for $13.00?!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499175#499175
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 11/1/2020 5:53 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> Cool. But how thick should the disk be?
>
> I don't know why I'm so thermodynamics challenged ...
>
> A Google search finds that alum has a thermal resistance of 0.5W/C.
> But what does that mean? There's got to be a formula that includes
> material thickness and area.
>
> Electrical resistance in a wire includes cross section (area) of wire
> and length. Surely something similar must be the case for thermal
> resistance or conductivity.
>
> Charlie, can you point me to the Kitplanes article?
>
> Finn
>
>
> On 11/1/2020 4:18 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
>> Another option is to mount the LED in the center of a disk. Drill a
>> ring of 1/8" holes right up next to the LED. Then a ring of 3/16"
>> holes a little further out. Then a ring of 1/4", etc.The plate
>> provides a way to mount to the wing.
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 12:59 PM Finn Lassen > > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/1/2020 12:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Trying to wrap my head around the transition from flat contact
>>>> area under the LED chip to the heat sink plate as it expands
>>>> out in area. Seems mounting it to an infinite piece of alum
>>>> foil would not be the same as mounting it to 10x10" 0.063"
>>>> thick alum plate ...
>>>
>>> But the sheet has thermal resistance too. And
>>> rate of dissipation is a function of temperature
>>> differential. As you move out onto the sheet,
>>> the fastest transfer is right around the base
>>> of the LED; temperatures fall as you move
>>> out hence energy dissipated per unit area
>>> declines.
>>>
>>> Intuitively, it makes sense that 'sink'
>>> temperature at the base of the LED will
>>> be much higher than at a remote location.
>>>
>>> Are we talking about landing lights?
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>> Yes landing lights.
>>
>> So my understanding is right. Thicker plate near LED base, then
>> tapering out. You'll also see that in old big heat sinks: thick
>> base then fins tapering out. I guess optimal design is total
>> surface area versus enough material to conduct the heat to the
>> entire surface (when designing for least weight). Some newer heat
>> sinks I've seen have numerous rods sticking out from the base.
>> Perhaps (for least weight) the rods should actually be tapered.
>>
>> This my original question: "Am I right in assuming the plate has
>> to be thickest were the LED is mounted and then taper down in
>> thickness as it expands out in width and height?"
>>
>> Another interesting item from Googling "best thermal conductivity":
>> "Along with its carbon cousins graphite and graphene, diamond is
>> the best thermal conductor around room temperature, having
>> thermal conductivity of more than 2,000 watts per meter per
>> Kelvin, which is five times higher than the best metals such as
>> *copper*."
>>
>> leading to my: "Perhaps tapered layers of carbon fiber (with
>> thermal epoxy) would be better as the LED mount plate? (After a
>> diamond, graphene or graphite apparently has the best thermal
>> conductivity.)"
>>
>> One could shape the carbon fiber layup to closely fit the leading
>> edge skin.
>>
>> I guess I'm thinking way, way, way too far out of the box :)
>>
>> Finn
>>
>> Jim Weir has a couple of articles in Kitplanes magazine that give a
>> 'cookbook' method of figuring heatsink size. I don't know, but
>> strongly suspect that the epoxy used as a binder in a typical carbon
>> layup will more than kill any thermal advantage of the carbon. How
>> about some aluminum flashing sheet? Bend up multiple ' [ ' channels
>> with increasing center widths, stack up up 'concentric' drill for the
>> LED base, then reassemble with heat sink compound. Not perfect, but a
>> lot faster/cheaper than carbon, and you get the extra thickness next
>> to the LED.
>>
>> Of course, by the time you do all that, you'll have spent more in
>> parts/labor than the FlyLEDs light we talked about, off-line. :-) I
>> doubt it will be much lighter, either.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
Boy, am I glad that this thread isn't a novel.
Finn,
Try this link (you probably need a subscription to access it):
https://www.kitplanes.com/aero-lectrics-141/
There are a lot of other articles by Weir that deal with it, too. I just
logged in and searched for 'heat sink', and watched for Weir's name as
author.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/294583/does-heatsink-trans
fer-plate-thickness-matter
I think the 4th answer down give the answer.=C2- Draw out the path of whe
re you are inputting the heat (back of the module), to where air starts flo
wing over it.
If it were me, I'd mount it on an 0.80 or 0.90 plate and tape a thermocoupl
e on the back.=C2- Maybe set a fan in front to simulate the prop turning.
=C2- If not cool enough, use a thicker plate, or drill more holes.
l.com> wrote:
On 11/1/2020 6:37 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
=C2- Are we talking about landing lights?
=C2- Bob . . .
Yes landing lights.
=C2- Okay . . . in the right pew now.
=C2- Is there an engineering data spec sheet available
=C2- for the device(s) you're considering?
=C2- Do you know the thermal resistance from mounting
=C2- surface to LED junction?
=C2- Bob . . .
Looking at the Cree XM-L2 with a thermal resistance of 2.5W/C from junctio
n to mount surface. Add to that a conservative 0.5W/C for heat sink compoun
d and we get 3W/C.
Max die temp is 150C. But unlimited life is 35C. It appears that when you
go above 35C you start reducing life of the LED.
The LEDs are "binned" (color and efficiency determined)=C2- at 85C.
So lets set die temp of 85C as the design goal.
With built-in temp limiting, I think we can probably consider wing skin to
air thermal resistance as 0W/C (air flowing over the skin in flight).
Consider 32C ambient we get 85 -3 -32 = 50 allowed temp difference from
mount plate to skin.
Each LED has a mount surface of about 20x20mm.
If we have eight 10W LEDs at 30% efficiency, we need to get rid of 56 watt
s.
So max thermal resistance of mount plate and mount late to wing skin shoul
d be 56/50 = 1.1W/C. If we use heat sink compound between plate and wing
skin, we're down to 0.6W/C max thermal resistance of the mount plate. Wow!
Can that be right?
If alum has thermal resistance of 0.2 W/C we need 3 of something. What is
the something? Thickness vs area? This is where I bog down.
Finn
| | Virus-free. www.avast.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
I though about mounting a computer (CPU) fan over the fins to give a flow of
air, but this idea falls down if your lights =98wig-wag=99 !!!
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 2 Nov 2020, at 2:33 am, Ernest Christley wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/294583/does-heatsink-trans
fer-plate-thickness-matter
>
> I think the 4th answer down give the answer. Draw out the path of where y
ou are inputting the heat (back of the module), to where air starts flowing o
ver it.
>
> If it were me, I'd mount it on an 0.80 or 0.90 plate and tape a thermocoup
le on the back. Maybe set a fan in front to simulate the prop turning. If n
ot cool enough, use a thicker plate, or drill more holes.
>
om> wrote:
>
>
>> On 11/1/2020 6:37 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>>> Are we talking about landing lights?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>> Yes landing lights.
>>
>> Okay . . . in the right pew now.
>>
>> Is there an engineering data spec sheet available
>> for the device(s) you're considering?
>>
>> Do you know the thermal resistance from mounting
>> surface to LED junction?
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
> Looking at the Cree XM-L2 with a thermal resistance of 2.5W/C from junctio
n to mount surface. Add to that a conservative 0.5W/C for heat sink compound
and we get 3W/C.
> Max die temp is 150C. But unlimited life is 35C. It appears that when you g
o above 35C you start reducing life of the LED.
> The LEDs are "binned" (color and efficiency determined) at 85C.
> So lets set die temp of 85C as the design goal.
> With built-in temp limiting, I think we can probably consider wing skin to
air thermal resistance as 0W/C (air flowing over the skin in flight).
> Consider 32C ambient we get 85 -3 -32 = 50 allowed temp difference from m
ount plate to skin.
> Each LED has a mount surface of about 20x20mm.
> If we have eight 10W LEDs at 30% efficiency, we need to get rid of 56 watt
s.
> So max thermal resistance of mount plate and mount late to wing skin shoul
d be 56/50 = 1.1W/C. If we use heat sink compound between plate and wing s
kin, we're down to 0.6W/C max thermal resistance of the mount plate. Wow! Ca
n that be right?
> If alum has thermal resistance of 0.2 W/C we need 3 of something. What is t
he something? Thickness vs area? This is where I bog down.
>
> Finn
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
The XM-L2 are Surface mounted. Are you planning to do double-sided PCB
and add via's under each LED, or do you plan on a CNC pattern in
aluminium to allow direct contact to the LED base? The via's have their
own thermal resistance to account for.
Rob
P.S. Cree now have the XM-L3 which tolerate even higher currents and
deliver more lm/watt. Worth a look, I just used some in a strobe config.
> Looking at the Cree XM-L2 with a thermal resistance of 2.5W/C from
> junction to mount surface. Add to that a conservative 0.5W/C for heat
> sink compound and we get 3W/C.
> Max die temp is 150C. But unlimited life is 35C. It appears that when
> you go above 35C you start reducing life of the LED.
> The LEDs are "binned" (color and efficiency determined) at 85C.
> So lets set die temp of 85C as the design goal.
> With built-in temp limiting, I think we can probably consider wing
> skin to air thermal resistance as 0W/C (air flowing over the skin in
> flight).
> Consider 32C ambient we get 85 -3 -32 = 50 allowed temp difference
> from mount plate to skin.
> Each LED has a mount surface of about 20x20mm.
> If we have eight 10W LEDs at 30% efficiency, we need to get rid of 56
> watts.
> So max thermal resistance of mount plate and mount late to wing skin
> should be 56/50 = 1.1W/C. If we use heat sink compound between plate
> and wing skin, we're down to 0.6W/C max thermal resistance of the
> mount plate. Wow! Can that be right?
> If alum has thermal resistance of 0.2 W/C we need 3 of something. What
> is the something? Thickness vs area? This is where I bog down.
>
> Finn
>
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Engine compartment fuse? |
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
Are there any industry acceptable 30 amp fuses or circuit breakers for
installation on the engine side of the firewall?
Other than a large ANL current limiters I've never noticed fuses or
C/B's in an engine compartment. I am aware of ambient temperature
effects on current limiting devices.
Short story: This is for a 912iS install with the battery and voltage
regulator in the engine compartment and should be something that won't
raise concern from a Transport Canada inspector. At the minimum I'd
like to run the wire between the battery and the voltage regulator
entirely within the engine compartment but it needs 30 amp protection.
thanks
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for pointing that out Rob. In my mind I had mixed up the 10W LEDs
I got from mpja.com.
Yes it appears it needs to be soldered to an intermediate PCB. Dang!
Another very significant via in the heat path. LED's mount surface is
4.78x4.478mm, but part of that is the two electrical connectors. I
assume the fiberglass in a PCB has a high heat resistance. Oh, now I
understand your CNC idea. That would give even less mount surface area:
4.78 x 2.78 mm, or so, but much better than via a PCB.
Yes, this thread is getting long. I guess I should have formulated my
question much more clearly to begin with. Although I now have a better
understanding of how the different parts of the heat path add up to a
total heat resistance, the basic question is material thickness of plate
the LED mounts to and the plate's contact area of the wing skin, formula
for. Looking at the site and thread Ernest referred to. I think that
gives me enough data to sensibly calculate mount plate thickness, how it
should taper down and needed contact area with skin.
Finn
On 11/2/2020 7:07 AM, Rob Turk wrote:
>
> The XM-L2 are Surface mounted. Are you planning to do double-sided PCB
> and add via's under each LED, or do you plan on a CNC pattern in
> aluminium to allow direct contact to the LED base? The via's have
> their own thermal resistance to account for.
>
> Rob
>
> P.S. Cree now have the XM-L3 which tolerate even higher currents and
> deliver more lm/watt. Worth a look, I just used some in a strobe config.
>
>> Looking at the Cree XM-L2 with a thermal resistance of 2.5W/C from
>> junction to mount surface. Add to that a conservative 0.5W/C for heat
>> sink compound and we get 3W/C.
>> Max die temp is 150C. But unlimited life is 35C. It appears that when
>> you go above 35C you start reducing life of the LED.
>> The LEDs are "binned" (color and efficiency determined) at 85C.
>> So lets set die temp of 85C as the design goal.
>> With built-in temp limiting, I think we can probably consider wing
>> skin to air thermal resistance as 0W/C (air flowing over the skin in
>> flight).
>> Consider 32C ambient we get 85 -3 -32 = 50 allowed temp difference
>> from mount plate to skin.
>> Each LED has a mount surface of about 20x20mm.
>> If we have eight 10W LEDs at 30% efficiency, we need to get rid of 56
>> watts.
>> So max thermal resistance of mount plate and mount late to wing skin
>> should be 56/50 = 1.1W/C. If we use heat sink compound between plate
>> and wing skin, we're down to 0.6W/C max thermal resistance of the
>> mount plate. Wow! Can that be right?
>> If alum has thermal resistance of 0.2 W/C we need 3 of something.
>> What is the something? Thickness vs area? This is where I bog down.
>>
>> Finn
>>
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Kuc <bobkuc(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | wiring in conduit |
I have a conduit in the wings of my rv-7a. Wire will be going through it
for wingtip lights. Also in the middle of the right wing I need to add
wire for the roll servo and pitot and aoa wires in the left wing.
Do I cut the tube in the middle to separate to add the wires or do I just
put a hole in the tube to add the wires? Is it OK for the wire to be loose
in the tube? And lastly, what do I put in the ends of the tube to prevent
chafing of the wires? I was thinking either fill ends with hot glue or
shoe glue or even duct sealant.
Thoughts.
Bob Kuc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
>Looking at the Cree XM-L2 with a thermal resistance of 2.5W/C from
>junction to mount surface.
Watts per degree C? Thermal resistance is degreesC/Watt.
Thermal resistance is normally cited as Degrees C (voltage analog)
per Watt (current analog). If the data sheet does indeed call
it 2.5W/C then it's 0.4C/Watt which is rather nominal.
>Add to that a conservative 0.5W/C for heat sink compound . . .
don't you mean 0.5C/W? which added to the assertion
above gives us 0.9C/W . . . a rather nominal and
believable value.
>Max die temp is 150C. But unlimited life is 35C. It appears that when you go
>above 35C you start reducing life of the LED.
35C isn't very hot . . . 95F? Anything
higher is detrimental to LED service life?
>The LEDs are "binned" (color and efficiency determined) at 85C.
Okay 85C die and say 25C ambient gives us
a total differential target of 60C.
If the die is pumping out 60W then the
target thermal resistance die-to-ambient
is 60C/60W or 1.0 C/W so your blast cooled sink seems
just adequate.
>So lets set die temp of 85C as the design goal.
>With built-in temp limiting, I think we can probably consider wing
>skin to air thermal resistance as 0W/C (air flowing over the skin in flight).
okay
>Consider 32C ambient we get 85 -3 -32 = 50 allowed temp difference
>from mount plate to skin.
>
>Each LED has a mount surface of about 20x20mm.
not relevant
>If we have eight 10W LEDs at 30% efficiency, we need to get rid of 56 watts.
okay
>So max thermal resistance of mount plate and mount late to wing skin
>should be 56/50 = 1.1W/C.
or 0.8 degrees C/Watt . . . we're in the same ballpark.
>If we use heat sink compound between plate and wing skin, we're down
>to 0.6W/C max
>thermal resistance of the mount plate.
Thermal resistance of pasted joints are not automatically
0.5C/W . . . a common rule of thumb carried over from
the good-ol-days of TO-3 transistor cases. Thermal resistance
is both area and media dependent. Twice the area drops
thermal resistance by half. Almost anything placed
between two metallic surfaces will drop the thermal
resistance across the joint.
>If aluminum has thermal resistance of 0.2 W/C we need 3 of something.
>What is the something? Thickness vs area? This is where I bog down.
Thermal resistance becomes a real number only for
specific cases like:
Resistance of a doped interface of TO-3 transistor
to heat sink surface
Resistance of a specific configuration of
heat sink with mass-to-ambient transfer
of heat at a specified airflow.
Resistance of semiconductor junction to it's heat
conducting surface.
The material is irrelevant . . . i.e. aluminum
has no specific thermal resistance until it
becomes part of a fabrication . . . it has
a generalized thermal conductivity value but
doesn't become a component of your thermal
resistance study until after it is fabricated
and then MEASURED or predicted. There
are computer programs not unlike finite element
stress analysis that will do similar studies of
thermal dynamics in an assembly.
https://tinyurl.com/kygh2vo
Here's a skip across the wave tops of a very
complex study
https://tinyurl.com/zsme6t6
Here's a .pdf of a thermal resistance study
I published 4 years ago:
https://tinyurl.com/yxfb9je4
How do you proposed to manage the optics of
this project? Does the natural emission profile
of the LEDS put the light where you want it
most?
I've demonstrated hand held flashlights that
offered sufficient illumination to effect a
graceful arrival with the earth . . . but
they put ALL of their 2 or 3 Watts of output
in the right place.
Headlights on cars generally shine 55W of
incandescent energy or 20W or LED
energy down the road . . . and they'll
light up a road sign a mile away.
Be wary also of too much light where you
don't want it. Incidental light in your
eyes is not conducive to skilled pilotage
1 foot above the runway.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine compartment fuse? |
Ken,
Look at the LittleFuse MIDI line of fuses...
https://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/automotive-aftermarket-products/b
olt-down-fuses/midi-boxed.aspx
-Jeff
com> wrote:
Are there any industry acceptable 30 amp fuses or circuit breakers for
installation on the engine side of the firewall?
Other than a large ANL current limiters I've never noticed fuses or
C/B's in an engine compartment.=C2- I am aware of ambient temperature
effects on current limiting devices.
Short story: This is for a 912iS install with the battery and voltage
regulator in the engine compartment and should be something that won't
raise concern from a Transport Canada inspector.=C2- At the minimum I'd
like to run the wire between the battery and the voltage regulator
entirely within the engine compartment but it needs 30 amp protection.
thanks
Ken
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat |
sink?
At 04:32 AM 11/2/2020, you wrote:
>I though about mounting a computer (CPU) fan
>over the fins to give a flow of air, but this
>idea falls down if your lights =98wig-wag=99 !!!
Perhaps not . . . during wig-wag operations, energy
to the fan is cut in half which severely reduces
its output but . . . energy dumped by the lamps
is cut in half too. Might not be a big deal. You
need to prototype it and take some MEASUREMENTS.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat |
sink?
At 08:08 PM 11/1/2020, you wrote:
>https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/294583/does-heatsink-transfer-plate-thickness-matter
>
>I think the 4th answer down give the answer. Draw out the path of
>where you are inputting the heat (back of the module), to where air
>starts flowing over it.
>
>If it were me, I'd mount it on an 0.80 or 0.90 plate and tape a
>thermocouple on the back. Maybe set a fan in front to simulate the
>prop turning. If not cool enough, use a thicker plate, or drill more holes.
>
Bingo . . . MEASURE on the bench
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B and Transponder antenna... |
At 06:46 PM 11/1/2020, you wrote:
>
>Here's another useful resource for learning the nanoVNA. It's a
>demo board that you connect to the device in order to learn what the
>test response should look like for various kinds of circuits.
>
>https://preview.tinyurl.com/yxz2hast
I'd seen that offered on Banggood . . . probably
ought to have one.
I do have an earlier version of the NanoVNA that
was barely used used before I acquired the VNATiny
that comes with some sophisticated PC based
management apps . . . but it's NOT self contained.
There are some apps that run in hand held Android
devices . . . I need to explore that further.
I ordered a 4", 1.5G version of the NanoVNA last
night . . . much handier for field and/or quick
look-see tasks. I just may have a very slightly
used NanoVNA for sale pretty soon!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 transceivers for sale |
At 12:08 PM 11/1/2020, you wrote:
>A subscriber to this List has determined
>that a couple of Microair 760 transceivers
>are surplus to his needs. He asked my assistance
>with getting them into new homes.
>
>I've listed them on eBay at auction. All proceeds
>will go to Matt Dralle to support his closet
>full of byte-thrashers that make all this
>good stuff run!
The links are:
https://tinyurl.com/y66qyyn9
https://tinyurl.com/y65akzyc
The second offering shows a user-fab
harness . . . opened it up and discovered
a need for some TLC. Decided to build a new
harness for that one as well.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
At 06:07 AM 11/2/2020, you wrote:
>The XM-L2 are Surface mounted. Are you planning to do double-sided
>PCB and add via's under each LED, or do you plan on a CNC pattern in
>aluminium to allow direct contact to the LED base? The via's have
>their own thermal resistance to account for.
You bet . . . and they're not going to be 0.5C/W
conductors. You'll need to fasten these critters
down with solder paste and a heat gun. The back
side of the ECB can be solid copper but it's going
to be THIN. Achieving a low resistance thermal
pathway from junction-to-ship's-skin will not be
a trivial task.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Thank you Ernest. This sentence "Copper Has a thermal conductivity of
401 W/(m K)" did it.
I thought the "m" stood for "milli" when I first Googled alum thermal
resistance.. It's meters, think. In other words thickness.
So alum is 205 W/Meter K or W/Meter C.
Area apparently nulls out. Whether applying 1 W heat to 1 square meter
or to 1 square mm it will still drop 205C per meter thickness. Right?
Intuitively the mount plate has to be at least as thick as half the
widest edge of the LED base. Then can taper down as the area spreads out.
The Cree XM-L2 has an (inner) 4.78x2.78mm base. so 4.78 * 0.5 / 25.4 =
0.094" So your 0.09 plate thickness is close.
Let's assume a 0.035 sq in LED base on a 0.1" plate. That should expand
out to about 0.14 sq in contact area with 0.025" skin. (0.1 /0.025)
On my RV-4 there would be about 1.5" or about 0.04m from LED to wing
skins. Two of those, 0.02m. 0.02 x 205 = 4C/W.
Add to that 2.5 for LED junction to mount base. 0.5 mount base to plate
and 0.5 mount base to wing skin and we get 7.5C/W.
7 W would result in a temp drop of 53 C from LED junction to wing skin,
resulting in LED junction temp of 85C at 32C ambient, if my calculations
are right.
With 8 LEDs the mount plate to wing contact should be 1.12 sq in. Easy
with two 1/2" flanges x 2 to 3".
To implement this I would probably mount the LEDs on a 1/8" alum bar
with groves milled for electical connectors. 2 rows of 4 LEDs. Adding
reflectors is a whole other problem.
Actually the 100W 45mil Bridgelux LED chip might make it a lot simpler
(40x40mm mount area). Sure the mount plate would be a lot thicker in the
center ...
https://www.stratusleds.com/module
Finn
On 11/1/2020 9:08 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/294583/does-heatsink-transfer-plate-thickness-matter
>
> I think the 4th answer down give the answer. Draw out the path of
> where you are inputting the heat (back of the module), to where air
> starts flowing over it.
>
> If it were me, I'd mount it on an 0.80 or 0.90 plate and tape a
> thermocouple on the back. Maybe set a fan in front to simulate the
> prop turning. If not cool enough, use a thicker plate, or drill more
> holes.
>
> wrote:
>
>
> On 11/1/2020 6:37 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>>> Are we talking about landing lights?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>> Yes landing lights.
>>
>> Okay . . . in the right pew now.
>>
>> Is there an engineering data spec sheet available
>> for the device(s) you're considering?
>>
>> Do you know the thermal resistance from mounting
>> surface to LED junction?
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
> Looking at the Cree XM-L2 with a thermal resistance of 2.5W/C from
> junction to mount surface. Add to that a conservative 0.5W/C for heat
> sink compound and we get 3W/C.
> Max die temp is 150C. But unlimited life is 35C. It appears that when
> you go above 35C you start reducing life of the LED.
> The LEDs are "binned" (color and efficiency determined) at 85C.
> So lets set die temp of 85C as the design goal.
> With built-in temp limiting, I think we can probably consider wing
> skin to air thermal resistance as 0W/C (air flowing over the skin in
> flight).
> Consider 32C ambient we get 85 -3 -32 = 50 allowed temp difference
> from mount plate to skin.
> Each LED has a mount surface of about 20x20mm.
> If we have eight 10W LEDs at 30% efficiency, we need to get rid of 56
> watts.
> So max thermal resistance of mount plate and mount late to wing skin
> should be 56/50 = 1.1W/C. If we use heat sink compound between plate
> and wing skin, we're down to 0.6W/C max thermal resistance of the
> mount plate. Wow! Can that be right?
> If alum has thermal resistance of 0.2 W/C we need 3 of something. What
> is the something? Thickness vs area? This is where I bog down.
>
> Finn
>
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wiring in conduit |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
I used the corrugated conduit that Van's sell. I simply made a hole with
a soldering iron (before pulling the wires!)
Actually cut the conduit at the inspection plate to get better access
when riveting the wing skins and installing the bell crank.
Finn
On 11/2/2020 10:48 AM, Bob Kuc wrote:
> I have a conduit in the wings of my rv-7a. Wire will be going
> through it for wingtip lights. Also in the middle of the right wing I
> need to add wire for the roll servo and pitot and aoa wires in the
> left wing.
>
> Do I cut the tube in the middle to separate to add the wires or do I
> just put a hole in the tube to add the wires? Is it OK for the wire to
> be loose in the tube? And lastly, what do I put in the ends of the
> tube to prevent chafing of the wires? I was thinking either fill ends
> with hot glue or shoe glue or even duct sealant.
>
> Thoughts.
>
> Bob Kuc
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
Since you are looking to get the most out of your design, I'd really
recommend you look at the XLamp XM-L3 series. They are identical in size
and shape, but have higher light output for the same current (approx
+20%), they have lower thermal resistance (2.2 vs 2.5 DegC/W), and they
can endure higher max current (5A vs 3A). You may be able to get the
same output using 6 instead of 8 LEDs, which means a lot less losses and
heat to deal with.
Only drawback I have seen is that they are not available in neutral
white, only higher color temperatures.
On 11/2/2020 4:39 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> Thanks for pointing that out Rob. In my mind I had mixed up the 10W
> LEDs I got from mpja.com.
>
> Yes it appears it needs to be soldered to an intermediate PCB. Dang!
> Another very significant via in the heat path. LED's mount surface is
> 4.78x4.478mm, but part of that is the two electrical connectors. I
> assume the fiberglass in a PCB has a high heat resistance. Oh, now I
> understand your CNC idea. That would give even less mount surface
> area: 4.78 x 2.78 mm, or so, but much better than via a PCB.
>
> Yes, this thread is getting long. I guess I should have formulated my
> question much more clearly to begin with. Although I now have a better
> understanding of how the different parts of the heat path add up to a
> total heat resistance, the basic question is material thickness of
> plate the LED mounts to and the plate's contact area of the wing skin,
> formula for. Looking at the site and thread Ernest referred to. I
> think that gives me enough data to sensibly calculate mount plate
> thickness, how it should taper down and needed contact area with skin.
>
> Finn
>
> On 11/2/2020 7:07 AM, Rob Turk wrote:
>>
>> The XM-L2 are Surface mounted. Are you planning to do double-sided
>> PCB and add via's under each LED, or do you plan on a CNC pattern in
>> aluminium to allow direct contact to the LED base? The via's have
>> their own thermal resistance to account for.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> P.S. Cree now have the XM-L3 which tolerate even higher currents and
>> deliver more lm/watt. Worth a look, I just used some in a strobe config.
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine compartment fuse? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The Rotax 912iS engine comes with a fuse box that is mounted on the
engine side of the firewall. It contains many ATC and Mini fuses.
If Rotax uses them, then so can we.
If a fuse nuisance blows due to ambient temperature, use one size larger.
Could your engine be a 912ULS?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499204#499204
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine compartment fuse? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Ken FWIW I just installed a 30 amp MIDI fuse on my Rotax 914. I punched out
the hole of the MIDI to 1/4"and mounted one side to my shunt and the other side
to a 1/4-28 Brass stud so a holder was not needed. McMaster and B&C sells MIDI
holders. Note that MIDI and Maxi fuses are not as fast acting as ATC and MINI.
Maxi fuese are large ATC like fuses. McMaster sells the inline fast on style
holder as well as a more robust clamp style holder. I was on the fence between
MIDI and Maxi. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499206#499206
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring in conduit |
At 09:48 AM 11/2/2020, you wrote:
>I have a conduit in the wings of my rv-7a. Wire will be going
>through it for wingtip lights.
>Also in the middle of the right wing I need to add wire for the roll
>servo and pitot and
>aoa wires in the left wing.
>
>Do I cut the tube in the middle to separate to add the wires or do I
>just put a
>hole in the tube to add the wires?
A plastic or conduit I presume. A hole is recommended.
In fact, you can make it quite large to facilitate
pulling the wire into the tube. The conduit is simply
for Z-axis support and routing convenience.
Is it OK for the wire to be loose in the tube?
Yes
And lastly, what do I put in the ends of the tube to prevent chafing
of the wires? I was thinking either fill ends with hot glue or shoe
glue or even duct sealant.
I would put a sleeve of heat shrink over the wire(s)
extending into the conduit 6 inches or so at both
the ends and the mid-tube exit. The things are not
going to 'slide around' in there. Just bevel
the edges of holes/exit points were wires emerge
and buffer the bundles with h-s.
Both wires and conduit are of similar durability/
harness and not antagonistic to each other as long
as there is no forcing . . . and a loose bundle
is not forced. The conduit remains open for future
access.
Goops, goos, glues and other sticky stuffs are to
be applied judiciously and avoided if there are
more elegant choices. We had some really GOOD
goo at Boeing back about 1961 . . . BMS513 . . .
you could retread tires with that stuff. Everybody
hated it for a variety of reasons. Except for
tread sealants on certain plumbing fittings, it was
to be avoided in the TC world.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine compartment fuse? |
At 10:06 AM 11/2/2020, you wrote:
>Ken,
>
>Look at the LittleFuse MIDI line of fuses...
>
>https://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/automotive-aftermarket-products/bolt-down-fuses/midi-boxed.aspx
These things require a mounting block which
might not be a bad thing if it adds a fat-wire
distribution point. But a MAXI holder butt-spliced
into the feeder would work too and much less
fuss. Here's a link to the data sheet
.pdf download
https://tinyurl.com/y3h5wj4o
It can be tied into a wire bundle but has
a hole for mechanical mounting if that
seems more elegant. The holders are
liquid tight.
Both holders and fuses are available at
most carparts emporiums.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
As for reflectors, are they really needed?=C2- The LED has a light patte
rn that puts nearly all of the light forward to begin with.=C2- And LEDs
with a 45 degree pattern are available.=C2- The ones I used from MPJA had
a 160 degree spread, but a chart of the intensity showed very little at th
e ends of that range.
il.com> wrote:
Thank you Ernest. This sentence "Copper Has a thermal conductivity of 401 W
/(m K)" did it.
I thought the "m" stood for "milli" when I first Googled alum thermal resis
tance.. It's meters, think. In other words thickness.
So alum is 205 W/Meter K or W/Meter C.
Area apparently nulls out. Whether applying 1 W heat to 1 square meter or
to 1 square mm it will still drop 205C per meter thickness. Right?
Intuitively the mount plate has to be at least as thick as half the widest
edge of the LED base. Then can taper down as the area spreads out.
The Cree XM-L2 has an (inner) 4.78x2.78mm base. so 4.78 * 0.5 / 25.4 = 0.
094" So your 0.09 plate thickness is close.
Let's assume a 0.035 sq in LED base on a 0.1" plate.=C2- That should expa
nd out to about 0.14 sq in contact area with 0.025" skin. (0.1 /0.025)
On my RV-4 there would be about 1.5" or about 0.04m from LED to wing skins.
Two of those, 0.02m. 0.02 x 205 ==C2- 4C/W.
Add to that 2.5 for LED junction to mount base. 0.5 mount base to plate and
0.5 mount base to wing skin and we get 7.5C/W.
7 W would result in a temp drop of 53 C from LED junction to wing skin, res
ulting in LED junction temp of 85C at 32C ambient, if my calculations are r
ight.
With 8 LEDs the mount plate to wing contact should be 1.12 sq in. Easy with
two 1/2" flanges x 2 to 3".
To implement this I would probably mount the LEDs on a 1/8" alum bar with g
roves milled for electical connectors. 2 rows of 4 LEDs. Adding reflectors
is a whole other problem.
Actually the 100W 45mil Bridgelux LED chip might make it a lot simpler (40x
40mm mount area). Sure the mount plate would be a lot thicker in the center
...
https://www.stratusleds.com/module
Finn
On 11/1/2020 9:08 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/294583/does-heatsink-trans
fer-plate-thickness-matter
I think the 4th answer down give the answer.=C2- Draw out the path of w
here you are inputting the heat (back of the module), to where air starts f
lowing over it.
If it were me, I'd mount it on an 0.80 or 0.90 plate and tape a thermocou
ple on the back.=C2- Maybe set a fan in front to simulate the prop turnin
g.=C2- If not cool enough, use a thicker plate, or drill more holes.
ail.com> wrote:
On 11/1/2020 6:37 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
=C2- Are we talking about landing lights?
=C2- Bob . . .
Yes landing lights.
=C2- Okay . . . in the right pew now.
=C2- Is there an engineering data spec sheet available
=C2- for the device(s) you're considering?
=C2- Do you know the thermal resistance from mounting
=C2- surface to LED junction?
=C2- Bob . . .
Looking at the Cree XM-L2 with a thermal resistance of 2.5W/C from junctio
n to mount surface. Add to that a conservative 0.5W/C for heat sink compoun
d and we get 3W/C.
Max die temp is 150C. But unlimited life is 35C. It appears that when you
go above 35C you start reducing life of the LED.
The LEDs are "binned" (color and efficiency determined)=C2- at 85C.
So lets set die temp of 85C as the design goal.
With built-in temp limiting, I think we can probably consider wing skin to
air thermal resistance as 0W/C (air flowing over the skin in flight).
Consider 32C ambient we get 85 -3 -32 = 50 allowed temp difference from
mount plate to skin.
Each LED has a mount surface of about 20x20mm.
If we have eight 10W LEDs at 30% efficiency, we need to get rid of 56 watt
s.
So max thermal resistance of mount plate and mount late to wing skin shoul
d be 56/50 = 1.1W/C. If we use heat sink compound between plate and wing
skin, we're down to 0.6W/C max thermal resistance of the mount plate. Wow!
Can that be right?
If alum has thermal resistance of 0.2 W/C we need 3 of something. What is
the something? Thickness vs area? This is where I bog down.
Finn
| | Virus-free. www.avast.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
On 11/2/2020 6:05 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> As for reflectors, are they really needed? The LED has a light
> pattern that puts nearly all of the light forward to begin with. And
> LEDs with a 45 degree pattern are available. The ones I used from
> MPJA had a 160 degree spread, but a chart of the intensity showed very
> little at the ends of that range.
>
Well, my goal is to light up at least 1,000 feet of the runway,
preferably 3,000.
Charlie referred to a landing light with a 3 degree beam width.
I guess with a strong enough LED (like 100W or 9,000 lumens) the bean
width may not be all that important.
For the reflector for the https://www.stratusleds.com/module is "the
beam is around 15 degrees with a soft falloff".
But definitely a good point.
Finn
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine compartment fuse? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Ken Here's a McMaster MIDI Fuse Holder: https://www.mcmaster.com/fuse-holders Note McMaster can order you a 30 amp MIDI or you can buy a 30 amp and holder from B&C, here's a pretty robust McMaster Maxi fuse holder: https://www.mcmaster.com/maxi-compatible-fuse-blocks Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499212#499212
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2 <rd2(at)dejazzd.com> |
| Subject: | isolation resistors |
Hi group,
I need to merge 3 audio signals (all low power) and feed them to pin T (non-switched
audio input) of a King KMA 24 audio panel. The purpose is to sufficiently
isolate the signals without significant attenuation.
The KMA 24 input impedance is listed as 500 ohm. The impedance of the sources is
not known except that they are intended to be amplified. The sources are: Warnings
from Monroy Traffic Scope, Traffic Warnings from GNX 375, and AoA warnings
from uAvionix AV-20-S.
Should I use resistors in series with each source and what value would you recommend?
4.7 kohm ?
Thanks
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY LED landing light -- Wing skin as heat sink? |
Good gawd!=C2- Those lights are ridiculous bright.
Here's a question:=C2- If I strap enough of these to my wings, will it ef
fectively nullify the day only restriction on my operating limitations?=C2
- :-)
l.com> wrote:
On 11/2/2020 6:05 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
As for reflectors, are they really needed?=C2- The LED has a light patt
ern that puts nearly all of the light forward to begin with.=C2- And LEDs
with a 45 degree pattern are available.=C2- The ones I used from MPJA ha
d a 160 degree spread, but a chart of the intensity showed very little at t
he ends of that range.
Well, my goal is to light up at least 1,000 feet of the runway, preferably
3,000.
Charlie referred to a landing light with a 3 degree beam width.
I guess with a strong enough LED (like 100W or 9,000 lumens) the bean widt
h may not be all that important.
For the reflector for the https://www.stratusleds.com/module is "the beam
is around 15 degrees with a soft falloff".
But definitely a good point.
Finn
| | Virus-free. www.avast.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: isolation resistors |
On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM rd2 wrote:
>
> Hi group,
>
> I need to merge 3 audio signals (all low power) and feed them to pin T
> (non-switched audio input) of a King KMA 24 audio panel. The purpose is to
> sufficiently isolate the signals without significant attenuation.
> The KMA 24 input impedance is listed as 500 ohm. The impedance of the
> sources is not known except that they are intended to be amplified. The
> sources are: Warnings from Monroy Traffic Scope, Traffic Warnings from GNX
> 375, and AoA warnings from uAvionix AV-20-S.
> Should I use resistors in series with each source and what value would you
> recommend? 4.7 kohm ?
> Thanks
> Rumen
>
Since all are aviation devices, they *should* be capable of driving a 600
ohm load at adequate volume. So the goal is to keep the load they see above
600 ohms. Each source impedance will likely be either a resistor in series
with its output, or the very low impedance of the output stage itself. If
you assume that source impedance is zero for each device (it'll more likely
be 50-100 ohms), then the load each device will see will be the
series-parallel total resistance of its own series resistor (which you're
adding) and the audio panel input (600 ohms), and the series resistors of
the other two sources. The signal level will be attenuated by around 50%,
which will usually be OK.
Being lazy & avoiding the math, if you start with around 1K ohms for each
series resistor, it'll likely work fine. You might be able to go as low as
300-400 ohms. You're balancing signal loss to series resistance, vs signal
loss due to overloading the output with too low a combined load resistance.
(Little risk of damage; just a signal that's too weak.)
The above may or may not work if you add consumer electronics to the mix.
There are zero 'standards' to how consumer gear does things, and the output
levels are almost always too low to work without 'help'.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine compartment fuse? |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
This may be more than what the OP was asking but I made notes for myself and I'll
share them here.
Speaking of bolt-down fuses and current limiters, from what I have seen there are
three bolt center-to-center distances: 61 mm, 2", and 30 mm.
B&C shows only 61 mm on their website: Bussman ANL current limiters and their holders.
61 mm centers:
Bussman ANN 10 to 800 A fast-acting current limiters.
Bussman ANL 35 to 750 A current limiters. I gather ANL is originally a Bussman
term that has been co-opted by others.
Renology ANL 61 mm fuses. Renology calls it a fuse and it looks about as fast as
an ANN fast-acting current limiter.
2" centers:
Bussman AMG 100 to 300 A fuses.
Littlefuse MEGA 40 to 100 A fuses.
30 mm centers:
Bussmann AMI 30 to 150 A fuses. Seems to be practically the same as MIDI.
Littelfuse MIDI 23 to 200 A fuses.
Littlefuse BF1 23 to 200 A fuses. Seems to be practically the same as MIDI.
Various offerings of fuses under the generic name MANL, mini ANL.
When fusess are listed as MEG they mean MEGA.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499220#499220
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2 <rd2(at)dejazzd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: isolation resistors |
Thanks Charlie.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: isolation resistors
On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 7:40 AM rd2 wrote:
Hi group,
I need to merge 3 audio signals (all low power) and feed them to pin T (non-switched
audio input) of a King KMA 24 audio panel. The purpose is to sufficiently
isolate the signals without significant attenuation.
The KMA 24 input impedance is listed as 500 ohm. The impedance of the sources is
not known except that they are intended to be amplified. The sources are: Warnings
from Monroy Traffic Scope, Traffic Warnings from GNX 375, and AoA warnings
from uAvionix AV-20-S.
Should I use resistors in series with each source and what value would you recommend?
4.7 kohm ?
Thanks
Rumen
Since all are aviation devices, they *should* be capable of driving a 600 ohm load
at adequate volume. So the goal is to keep the load they see above 600 ohms.
Each source impedance will likely be either a resistor in series with its output,
or the very low impedance of the output stage itself. If you assume that
source impedance is zero for each device (it'll more likely be 50-100 ohms),
then the load each device will see will be the series-parallel total resistance
of its own series resistor (which you're adding) and the audio panel input
(600 ohms), and the series resistors of the other two sources. The signal level
will be attenuated by around 50%, which will usually be OK.
Being lazy & avoiding the math, if you start with around 1K ohms for each series
resistor, it'll likely work fine. You might be able to go as low as 300-400
ohms. You're balancing signal loss to series resistance, vs signal loss due to
overloading the output with too low a combined load resistance. (Little risk
of damage; just a signal that's too weak.)
The above may or may not work if you add consumer electronics to the mix. There
are zero 'standards' to how consumer gear does things, and the output levels
are almost always too low to work without 'help'.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Efraim Otero <efraim.otero(at)gmail.com> |
Dear All:
I wanted to see if I could get inputs to understand an issue I am having
with my Bendix magnetos.
My biplane, an O 200 powered Fisher Celebrity has what I call a partial
Electric system. One 12 V 18 Ah battery that connects directly to a skytec
starter. This starter has a switch that in turn leads to a starter
pushbutton.
It also has a key switch for the magnetos: Off, Left, right, both.
I tried to start the engine and it motors while pushing the starter
pushbutton, with the starter switch on and magnetos on both. However the
engine does not catch.
Also, if I turn the mags off, the engine also motors but obviously does not
ignite.
What might be going on?
-Battery issues? not enough charge/power?
-Mag issues? not getting any spark (Should the engine be turning at some
specific revs on cranking for it to generate a spark?
-Ignition harness?
-Spark plugs?
Any suggestions as to how to troubleshoot?
I am getting fuel to the engine as I can smell it. It has no fuel pump,
justgravit feed. Starter motors slowly, although it does not "seem un
normal" (purely perception of mine!)
Please advise,
Efraim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Possible magneto impulse coupling failure?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499231#499231
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B and Transponder antenna... |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
If you'd like a set of antenna to test and try out with the VNA, I can get a couple
on their way to you - where do I send them?
Andy
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 06:46 PM 11/1/2020, you wrote:
>
> >
> > Here's another useful resource for learning the nanoVNA. It's a demo board
that you connect to the device in order to learn what the test response should
look like for various kinds of circuits.
> >
> > https://preview.tinyurl.com/yxz2hast (https://preview.tinyurl.com/yxz2hast)
>
> I'd seen that offered on Banggood . . . probably
> ought to have one.
>
> I do have an earlier version of the NanoVNA that
> was barely used used before I acquired the VNATiny
> that comes with some sophisticated PC based
> management apps . . . but it's NOT self contained.
> There are some apps that run in hand held Android
> devices . . . I need to explore that further.
>
> I ordered a 4", 1.5G version of the NanoVNA last
> night . . . much handier for field and/or quick
> look-see tasks. I just may have a very slightly
> used NanoVNA for sale pretty soon!
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499234#499234
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
My advice would be to have a mechanic troubleshoot.
In the meantime, is this a new installation that has never run or is this a
new problem?
On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:37 AM Efraim Otero wrote:
> Dear All:
> I wanted to see if I could get inputs to understand an issue I am having
> with my Bendix magnetos.
> My biplane, an O 200 powered Fisher Celebrity has what I call a partial
> Electric system. One 12 V 18 Ah battery that connects directly to a skytec
> starter. This starter has a switch that in turn leads to a starter
> pushbutton.
> It also has a key switch for the magnetos: Off, Left, right, both.
> I tried to start the engine and it motors while pushing the starter
> pushbutton, with the starter switch on and magnetos on both. However the
> engine does not catch.
> Also, if I turn the mags off, the engine also motors but obviously does
> not ignite.
> What might be going on?
> -Battery issues? not enough charge/power?
> -Mag issues? not getting any spark (Should the engine be turning at some
> specific revs on cranking for it to generate a spark?
> -Ignition harness?
> -Spark plugs?
> Any suggestions as to how to troubleshoot?
> I am getting fuel to the engine as I can smell it. It has no fuel pump,
> justgravit feed. Starter motors slowly, although it does not "seem un
> normal" (purely perception of mine!)
>
> Please advise,
> Efraim
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: isolation resistors |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
rd2(at)dejazzd.com wrote:
> Hi group,
>
> I need to merge 3 audio signals (all low power) and feed them to pin T (non-switched
audio input) of a King KMA 24 audio panel. The purpose is to sufficiently
isolate the signals without significant attenuation.
> The KMA 24 input impedance is listed as 500 ohm. The impedance of the sources
is not known except that they are intended to be amplified. The sources are:
Warnings from Monroy Traffic Scope, Traffic Warnings from GNX 375, and AoA warnings
from uAvionix AV-20-S.
> Should I use resistors in series with each source and what value would you recommend?
4.7 kohm ?
> Thanks
> Rumen
This may be overkill but I had a similar need and used the DIY board from Proffessor
Nuckolls.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/Audio_Iso_Amp_9009-700L.pdf
Wired it up and tested it on the bench with the wiring shown in the attached and
shown in the lower right corner. All tested well with good volume control and
excellent isolation. Have not yet run the engine on the plane but don't expect
any problems. the PM3000 has an auto music silence fetaure when recieving
or PTT is depressed. All worked well.
Very pleased with the outcome.
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499235#499235
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z16m_revmaster_2300_r9_sht_2_115.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:37 AM Efraim Otero wrote:
> Dear All:
> I wanted to see if I could get inputs to understand an issue I am having
> with my Bendix magnetos.
> My biplane, an O 200 powered Fisher Celebrity has what I call a partial
> Electric system. One 12 V 18 Ah battery that connects directly to a skytec
> starter. This starter has a switch that in turn leads to a starter
> pushbutton.
> It also has a key switch for the magnetos: Off, Left, right, both.
> I tried to start the engine and it motors while pushing the starter
> pushbutton, with the starter switch on and magnetos on both. However the
> engine does not catch.
> Also, if I turn the mags off, the engine also motors but obviously does
> not ignite.
> What might be going on?
> -Battery issues? not enough charge/power?
> -Mag issues? not getting any spark (Should the engine be turning at some
> specific revs on cranking for it to generate a spark?
> -Ignition harness?
> -Spark plugs?
> Any suggestions as to how to troubleshoot?
> I am getting fuel to the engine as I can smell it. It has no fuel pump,
> justgravit feed. Starter motors slowly, although it does not "seem un
> normal" (purely perception of mine!)
>
> Please advise,
> Efraim
>
If the impulse coupler is working, and you have a combustible mixture in
the cylinder, the engine should fire as the piston passes top dead center,
even if the prop is barely moving. You can troubleshoot the impulse-coupled
mag by:
1. remove ALL the spark plug wires, and at least one plug from each
cylinder (safety)
2. screw the plugs onto the plug wires for the impulse mag, and make sure
the shell of the plugs is touching the engine.
3. switch on the impulse mag. if you're not absolutely sure which side is
the impulse mag, turn the mag switch to 'both' to ensure that the impulse
coupled mag is hot.
4. rotate the prop, and watch the plugs each time the impulse coupler fires
(makes a sharp 'clack' sound).
One plug should spark each time the impulse coupler fires. Continue to
rotate the prop, watching the plugs, until you've heard at least 8 'clacks'
(enough to fire each plug twice).
If you get no spark on any of the plugs attached to the impulse mag, either
the mag is grounded, or something inside the mag is defective. It's
remotely possible that all 4 plug wires are bad, or all 4 plugs are bad,
but that's not where I'd start.
All the above assumes that this is a 'new' problem; that the engine has
recently been running OK. If you're running mogas (at least here in the
USA), know that if fuel has been sitting in the fuel bowl of the carb for
more than a couple of weeks, the engine will be very hard to start until
all the stale fuel is pumped out of the bowl, and fresh gas fills the bowl.
(Ask me how I know this....)
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
All good advice. The left mag is normally the impulse mag. So for the
test only activate the left mag. If nothing try again with only right
mag on. Note, engine will crank faster with a plug out of each cylinder.
Voltage only matters to starter, not to mags, as they don't get any
battery power. If you hear noticeable slowing in the cranking, time to
recharge the battery.
On 11/3/2020 12:21 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:37 AM Efraim Otero > wrote:
>
> Dear All:
> I wanted to see if I could get inputs to understand an issue I am
> having with my Bendix magnetos.
> My biplane, an O 200 powered Fisher Celebrity has what I call a
> partial Electric system. One 12 V 18 Ah battery that connects
> directlyto a skytec starter. This starter has a switch that in turn
> leads to a starter pushbutton.
> It also has a key switch for the magnetos: Off, Left, right, both.
> I tried to start the engine and it motors while pushing the starter
> pushbutton, with the starter switch on and magnetos on both. However
> the engine does not catch.
> Also, if I turn the mags off, the engine also motors but obviously
> does not ignite.
> What might be going on?
> -Battery issues? not enough charge/power?
> -Mag issues? not getting any spark (Should the engine be turning at
> some specific revs on cranking for it to generate a spark?
> -Ignition harness?
> -Spark plugs?
> Any suggestions as to how to troubleshoot?
> I am getting fuel to the engine as I can smell it. It has no fuel
> pump, justgravit feed. Starter motors slowly, although it does not
> "seem un normal" (purely perception of mine!)
>
> Please advise,
> Efraim
>
>
> If the impulse coupler is working, and you have a combustible mixture in
> the cylinder, the engine should fire as the piston passes top dead
> center, even if the prop is barely moving. You can troubleshoot the
> impulse-coupled mag by:
>
> 1. remove ALL the spark plug wires, and at least one plug from each
> cylinder (safety)
> 2. screw the plugs onto the plug wires for the impulse mag, and make
> sure the shell of the plugs is touching the engine.
> 3. switch on the impulse mag. if you're not absolutely sure which side
> is the impulse mag, turn the mag switch to 'both' to ensure that the
> impulse coupled mag is hot.
> 4. rotate the prop, and watch the plugs each time the impulse coupler
> fires (makes a sharp 'clack' sound).
>
> One plug should spark each time the impulse coupler fires. Continue to
> rotate the prop, watching the plugs, until you've heard at least 8
> 'clacks' (enough to fire each plug twice).
>
> If you get no spark on any of the plugs attached to the impulse mag,
> either the mag is grounded, or something inside the mag is defective.
> It's remotely possible that all 4 plug wires are bad, or all 4 plugs are
> bad, but that's not where I'd start.
>
> All the above assumes that this is a 'new' problem; that the engine has
> recently been running OK. If you're running mogas (at least here in the
> USA), know that if fuel has been sitting in the fuel bowl of the carb
> for more than a couple of weeks, the engine will be very hard to start
> until all the stale fuel is pumped out of the bowl, and fresh gas fills
> the bowl. (Ask me how I know this....)
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2 <rd2(at)dejazzd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: isolation resistors |
I am sure this would work, but I already have an audio panel - which in itself
is an iso amp and already using all the inputs (except for the ADF, which recently
failed; yes there is such a thing like ADF :) - so adding another iso amp
would really be overkill in this case.... besides it's a certified bird... and
I was looking for a lazy non-complex solution. Thanks anyway. R
----- Original Message -----
From: dj_theis <djtheis58(at)gmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: isolation resistors
rd2(at)dejazzd.com wrote:
> Hi group,
>
> I need to merge 3 audio signals (all low power) and feed them to pin T (non-switched
audio input) of a King KMA 24 audio panel. The purpose is to sufficiently
isolate the signals without significant attenuation.
> The KMA 24 input impedance is listed as 500 ohm. The impedance of the sources
is not known except that they are intended to be amplified. The sources are:
Warnings from Monroy Traffic Scope, Traffic Warnings from GNX 375, and AoA warnings
from uAvionix AV-20-S.
> Should I use resistors in series with each source and what value would you recommend?
4.7 kohm ?
> Thanks
> Rumen
This may be overkill but I had a similar need and used the DIY board from Proffessor
Nuckolls.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/Audio_Iso_Amp_9009-700L.pdf
Wired it up and tested it on the bench with the wiring shown in the attached and
shown in the lower right corner. All tested well with good volume control and
excellent isolation. Have not yet run the engine on the plane but don't expect
any problems. the PM3000 has an auto music silence fetaure when recieving
or PTT is depressed. All worked well.
Very pleased with the outcome.
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499235#499235
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z16m_revmaster_2300_r9_sht_2_115.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <air.peter(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Automotive spark plugs |
Hi,
is there any experience using a slick magneto with automotive spark
plugs and automotive ignition wire.
Appreciate reading what you saw with that configuration.
I am flying a Lancair 360 with a Lyco 360, one electric iginition and a
standard Slick magneto.
Thanks for your reply,
Peter
D-EPSO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> |
For safetys sake, I think its worth clarifying some potential aspects of your setup
Efraim.
Normally a rotary Off, Left, Right, Both switch also has a Start position, which
momentarily grounds the Right magneto as long as the switch is in the Start
position. I you have a separate start button (which is not likely to ground the
Right magneto), then be very certain whether or not your Right magneto also
has an impulse coupling to retard the spark(s). If it does, then by all means
start on Both. If not, you only ever want to be starting the engine on Left
magneto. This ensures the Right magneto is grounded and cannot fire the plugs
well before Top Dead Centre (TDC), which can cause engine kick-back and damage
the gearbox and accessories or worse, you if you happen to be hand-swinging
the engine. Some Bendix magnetos have a tab inside the capacitor cover that
grounds the magneto when the P-lead is removed, but if you disconnect the magnetos
P-leads for any reason there is real potential for the magnetos to be LIVE
and dangerous. Dont forget that magnetos generate their own spark independent
of whether the electrical system is on or off, so the only way to stop them
working is by grounding the magneto circuit via the 'P-lead and switch, which
must be maintained in good condition for obvious reasons.
V/r Stuart
> On 4 Nov 2020, at 7:48 am, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
> All good advice. The left mag is normally the impulse mag. So for the test only
activate the left mag. If nothing try again with only right mag on. Note, engine
will crank faster with a plug out of each cylinder.
> Voltage only matters to starter, not to mags, as they don't get any battery power.
If you hear noticeable slowing in the cranking, time to recharge the battery.
>
> On 11/3/2020 12:21 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:37 AM Efraim Otero > wrote:
>> Dear All:
>> I wanted to see if I could get inputs to understand an issue I am
>> having with my Bendix magnetos.
>> My biplane, an O 200 powered Fisher Celebrity has what I call a
>> partial Electric system. One 12 V 18 Ah battery that connects
>> directly to a skytec starter. This starter has a switch that in turn
>> leads to a starter pushbutton.
>> It also has a key switch for the magnetos: Off, Left, right, both.
>> I tried to start the engine and it motors while pushing the starter
>> pushbutton, with the starter switch on and magnetos on both. However
>> the engine does not catch.
>> Also, if I turn the mags off, the engine also motors but obviously
>> does not ignite.
>> What might be going on?
>> -Battery issues? not enough charge/power?
>> -Mag issues? not getting any spark (Should the engine be turning at
>> some specific revs on cranking for it to generate a spark?
>> -Ignition harness?
>> -Spark plugs?
>> Any suggestions as to how to troubleshoot?
>> I am getting fuel to the engine as I can smell it. It has no fuel
>> pump, justgravit feed. Starter motors slowly, although it does not
>> "seem un normal" (purely perception of mine!)
>> Please advise,
>> Efraim If the impulse coupler is working, and you have a combustible mixture
in the cylinder, the engine should fire as the piston passes top dead center,
even if the prop is barely moving. You can troubleshoot the impulse-coupled
mag by:
>> 1. remove ALL the spark plug wires, and at least one plug from each cylinder
(safety)
>> 2. screw the plugs onto the plug wires for the impulse mag, and make sure the
shell of the plugs is touching the engine.
>> 3. switch on the impulse mag. if you're not absolutely sure which side is the
impulse mag, turn the mag switch to 'both' to ensure that the impulse coupled
mag is hot.
>> 4. rotate the prop, and watch the plugs each time the impulse coupler fires
(makes a sharp 'clack' sound).
>> One plug should spark each time the impulse coupler fires. Continue to rotate
the prop, watching the plugs, until you've heard at least 8 'clacks' (enough
to fire each plug twice).
>> If you get no spark on any of the plugs attached to the impulse mag, either
the mag is grounded, or something inside the mag is defective. It's remotely possible
that all 4 plug wires are bad, or all 4 plugs are bad, but that's not
where I'd start.
>> All the above assumes that this is a 'new' problem; that the engine has recently
been running OK. If you're running mogas (at least here in the USA), know
that if fuel has been sitting in the fuel bowl of the carb for more than a couple
of weeks, the engine will be very hard to start until all the stale fuel
is pumped out of the bowl, and fresh gas fills the bowl. (Ask me how I know this....)
>> Charlie
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
> Normally a rotary Off, Left, Right, Both switch also has a Start position, which
momentarily grounds the Right magneto as long as the switch is in the Start
position
The shorting function is selectable by jumper... on start, you can
ground the right, the left, none, or if you're perverse, both... by
changing jumpers.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magneto Switch |
| From: | Darrel Jones <wd6bor(at)vom.com> |
I'll show this to Mom and have her talk to you.
On 11/3/2020 7:15 PM, Paul Millner wrote:
>
>> Normally a rotary Off, Left, Right, Both switch also has a Start
>> position, which momentarily grounds the Right magneto as long as the
>> switch is in the Start position
>
>
> The shorting function is selectable by jumper... on start, you can
> ground the right, the left, none, or if you're perverse, both... by
> changing jumpers.
>
> Paul
>
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.matronics.com%2fNavigator%3fAeroElectric-List&c=E,1,JtnfvwqEtdpZ7cT_dRhpkBWtUDeta9aacn26At-yVi1E_vMaX3XQAH3FM0YXSG7DDnBUHm6HvKVpKksHcOLNhJ569m-4MzsmDvh785ne&typo=1
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fforums.matronics.com&c=E,1,DlmFghRAZxhZxW2HmKdAUmf3WBAm4dlhKgGNSwajl_2-QldIlytV1BhXjb4JUsNWruX6orze5C1Edws9p2FumXk07geDWxIFdEYtswHRfjs7dRbzHw,,&typo=1
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwiki.matronics.com&c=E,1,3Fy4eMTJCQo5gVSZEnCieXNIb8H2Cv3vkNBNUoTmzpyI-f_tJcTb6wOVimVmPSALWQghR3aipNF78lwD0jljZoDL-YdiNYTOZAs4DB9AZsSq-ND70MRNRs9majBK&typo=1
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.matronics.com%2fcontribution&c=E,1,-_bRUqLdY4wJKMQG6c7ViZH3sTm98RafPmW6EWuZcJVPoG3expYT4AzfebtYJK-08Mybo69BtWIEju9sZcn346zZEdtWLGSPq_uTwPuwoHV7NNEboR8f&typo=1
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Ni-Cd Battery Safety Information Bulletin |
Interesting, I have never heard of this.
*Aircraft Maintenance Manual Aircraft Parking Procedures usually require
the physical disconnection of the aircraft batteries, and the periodic
reconnection to carry out the parking or storage checks. A Type Certificate
(TC) holder in conjunction with a battery manufacturer has identified that
when a Nickel-Cadmium (Ni-Cd) battery is disconnected from the aircraft
loads, it self-discharges due to an electrochemical phenomenon, thus
inducing a reduction of battery capacity. When the battery is charged again
from the aircraft, the battery does not recover 100% of its initial
capacity. Therefore, after each cycle of battery self-discharge, the
available battery capacity will decrease progressively.*
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ni-Cd Battery Safety Information Bulletin |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 11/4/2020 10:11 AM, Sebastien wrote:
> Interesting, I have never heard of this.
>
> /Aircraft Maintenance Manual Aircraft Parking Procedures usually
> require the physical disconnection of the aircraft batteries, and the
> periodic reconnection to carry out the parking or storage checks. A
> Type Certificate (TC) holder in conjunction with a battery
> manufacturer has identified that when a Nickel-Cadmium (Ni-Cd) battery
> is disconnected from the aircraft loads, it self-discharges due to an
> electrochemical phenomenon, thus inducing a reduction of battery
> capacity. When the battery is charged again from the aircraft, the
> battery does not recover 100% of its initial capacity. Therefore,
> after each cycle of battery self-discharge, the available battery
> capacity will decrease progressively./
Interesting, but isn't it more of academic than practical interest, for
most of us? I doubt that you could find a NiCd starting battery in a
homebuilt these days.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Ni-Cd Battery Safety Information Bulletin |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ni-Cd Battery Safety Information |
Bulletin
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
Well, those of us that had ni-cad powered drills and ni-cad powered
laptops got the joy of replacing the batteries when the recharge
capacity dropped down to 30%. At least lithium batteries suffer much
less of this effect.
On 11/4/2020 9:38 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> On 11/4/2020 10:11 AM, Sebastien wrote:
>> Interesting, I have never heard of this.
>>
>> /Aircraft Maintenance Manual Aircraft Parking Procedures usually
>> require the physical disconnection of the aircraft batteries, and the
>> periodic reconnection to carry out the parking or storage checks. A
>> Type Certificate (TC) holder in conjunction with a battery
>> manufacturer has identified that when a Nickel-Cadmium (Ni-Cd) battery
>> is disconnected from the aircraft loads, it self-discharges due to an
>> electrochemical phenomenon, thus inducing a reduction of battery
>> capacity. When the battery is charged again from the aircraft, the
>> battery does not recover 100% of its initial capacity. Therefore,
>> after each cycle of battery self-discharge, the available battery
>> capacity will decrease progressively./
> Interesting, but isn't it more of academic than practical interest, for
> most of us? I doubt that you could find a NiCd starting battery in a
> homebuilt these days.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ni-Cd Battery Safety Information Bulletin |
At 10:38 AM 11/4/2020, you wrote:
>On 11/4/2020 10:11 AM, Sebastien wrote:
>>Interesting, I have never heard of this.
>>
>>Aircraft Maintenance Manual Aircraft Parking Procedures usually
>>require the physical disconnection of the aircraft batteries, and
>>the periodic reconnection to carry out the parking or storage
>>checks. A Type Certificate (TC) holder in conjunction with a
>>battery manufacturer has identified that when a Nickel-Cadmium
>>(Ni-Cd) battery is disconnected from the aircraft loads, it
>>self-discharges due to an electrochemical phenomenon, thus inducing
>>a reduction of battery capacity. When the battery is charged again
>>from the aircraft, the battery does not recover 100% of its initial
>>capacity. Therefore, after each cycle of battery self-discharge,
>>the available battery capacity will decrease progressively.
>
>Interesting, but isn't it more of academic than practical interest,
>for most of us? I doubt that you could find a NiCd starting battery
>in a homebuilt these days.
Agreed. In fact, I thought the Ni-Cads were outlawed
in Europe for new/replacement back about 2010. I'm assuming
also that this document is talking about wet cranking
batteries . . . a very unlikely candidate for an
amateur built application.
October 12, 2020 - November 04, 2020
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pu