AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-qd
May 13, 2021 - July 13, 2021
The file
engine.pdf
is the one that has the bus architecture and the alternators.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:40 AM Bud K wrote:
>
> Art,
> Yes I could upgrade to a larger, pad mounted alternator but would rather
> use what I have. I recognize the added expense and complexity of going the
> e-bus route. And yes, that pitot heat power is over half of my e-bus
> load. I don't see myself continuing to fly in IMC with a primary system
> failure and would head to VMC ASAP.
>
> Since your B/U alternator has the capacity, did you implement the e-bus
> architecture or put everything on a main bus?
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*Friendship is like a stone. A stone has no value, but when you rub two
stones together properly, sparks of fire emerge. *
Rabbi Mordechai of Lechovitz
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Contactor Questions |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Z-31A does not require a diode because the over-voltage module provides arc suppression.
No, do not remove the B&C installed diode. It does not hurt anything.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501909#501909
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Primary and B/U Alt Fields on Master Bus |
At 04:43 PM 5/13/2021, you wrote:
>Bud,
>
>I put everything on one bus except a couple of
>tiny loads which are attached to a small
>always-on bus. Here are
>all
>of my wiring diagrams. The file=C2
>
>
>[]
>=C2
>engine.pdf
>=C2 is the one that has the bus architecture and the alternators.
Figure Z-13 shows the optimal application of
the diminutive SD-8 into a two alternator
system. On of the design goals was to
eliminate the battery contactor load of
approx 0.6 to 0.8 amps when flying on
battery only. Eliminating that load was
also useful for maximizing available
energy from the SD-8.
If you're not going to have an e-bus,
the tie both alternators to the main bus
as depicted in Z-12.
Have you done a load analysis of the
easily anticipated failure conditions
for formulate your plan-b
flight configuration?
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Contactor Questions |
At 02:10 PM 5/13/2021, you wrote:
>
>
>Good afternoon,
>
>I'm working on a schematic for my RV-10 based on the Z-101
>architecture and have come up with a couple questions about contactors...
>
>First, about the starter contactor. The Z-101 shows a single
>conductor connecting the contactor to the starter with a jumper at
>the starter. I found another discussion from 2015 with an
>alternative arrangement (attached) for permanent magnet starters.
>I'm planning to use a B&C starter. Should I be using the extra wire & diode?
By 'extra wire' are you talking about the jumper from
contactor "I" terminal to the starter's "S"
terminal? Yes, wire as shown and including
the diode is a good thing. The starter contactor
from B*C will include a built in diode on its
coil.
>Second, I'm adding an external power outlet per Z-31A. I've made
>sense of most of this drawing but I'm unsure why there is no diode
>shown across the coil in the Z-31A diagram? The B&C continuous
>contactor includes an external diode already. Should it be removed?
Wouldn't hurt but not necessary assuming you
can get a B*C crowbar ov module. Are those
available? I though those were out of production.
>Thanks for taking the time to read my perhaps basic questions!
That's what this organization is here for
my friend . . . folks that already know everything
don't need us!
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Primary and B/U Alt Fields on Master Bus |
At 09:19 PM 5/12/2021, you wrote:
>
>I am planning an avionics upgrade on an RV-4. The airplane
>currently has and SD-8 back up dynamo as well as an internally
>regulated alternator. I plan on installing a Garmin GPS175 and
>heated pitot and a Dynon Skyview to allow me to fly IFR. I am
>planning to rearchitect the electrical system as part of the
>upgrade. I plan on implementing an Essential Bus architecture
>similar to figure Z-12, dual alternator, single battery.
>
>Question #1. Why are both the primary and B/U alternator fields
>powered by the master bus? Wouldn't it be prudent to power at least
>the B/U alternator field from the E-bus in case you have to shut
>down the Master bus, thereby disabling both alternators? I know that
>the SD-8 can be 'self exciting', however, if it is not, the B/U
>alternator would be shut down.
>
>Question #2. Shouldn't the B/U alternator B lead go the battery side
>of the Battery Contactor as opposed to master bus side? Wouldn't
>that charge the battery partially offsetting the power draw from E-bus devices.
My apologies, I got some replies mistaken
for queries. Scratch my recent post to the
thread.
If you're running an SD-8 aux alternator,
you need to be looking at Z-13.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Contactor Questions |
| From: | "A Lumley" <andrew.lumley(at)sympatico.ca> |
Thanks to you both for the quick feedback. I'll include the jumper from the contactor
"I" terminal to the starter with the extra diode.
You are correct that B&C no longer sells the crowbar module so I was going to build
my own from your crowbar schematics.
Thanks again, I'm sure I'll have lots more questions...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501914#501914
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ensure Exceptional Growth In Business With Cash App |
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| From: | "alicerose" <alicerose903(at)gmail.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Do you know what happens if you want to unlock cash |
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| From: | "alicerose" <alicerose903(at)gmail.com> |
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501922#501922
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | "cskelt" <cskelt(at)cantab.net> |
Here's a really weird one that occurred recently. Flying on a North-Easterly heading
the PAI-700 panel mount compass informed me I was heading West. This is
a new problem and the photo taken some years ago shows the relative positions
of the instruments with reasonable agreement between the panel mount compass and
the Dynon EFIS.
Taxiing around a circle without the Dynon EFIS D100 in the panel gives good compass
readings. With the EFIS in place the compass reading remains between South
and West. I took the compass and EFIS to the compass manufacturer, Precision
Aviation, where they confirmed that the compass is OK and the EFIS magnetization
too strong for a mu-metal shield to help.
The next photo below shows a compass correctly pointing North and the second shows
it after rotating to point to the EFIS display, folded out from the box of
electronics and sensors. The magnetization appears to be concentrated halfway
up the left side of the display.
Dynon Technical Support deny there is anything wrong and my eventual request to
buy a replacement display went unanswered. This led to a google search for a
demagnetizer that found many plausible devices for up to a few hundred dollars
that's no doubt less than a new display. Can anyone advise if it's feasible to
demagnetize a display screen and offer any tips, or ideas as to how the display
became magnetized?
I understand that a standalone magnetic compass isn't required if you have an remote
electronic magnetometer but I appreciate the redundancy and the units did
after all coexist harmoniously for some years.
Thanks in advance!!
Chris Skelt
LNC2 N1990L at KIWS.
--------
Chris Skelt
Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501927#501927
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/d100_magnetized_798.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: Primary and B/U Alt Fields on Master Bus |
Hi Art;
Great electrical drawing and parts list. I haven't analyzed it, but very professionally
done.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Art Zemon" <art(at)zemon.name>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 2:43:52 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Primary and B/U Alt Fields on Master Bus
Bud,
I put everything on one bus except a couple of tiny loads which are attached to
a small always-on bus. Here are all of my wiring diagrams . The file
engine.pdf
is the one that has the bus architecture and the alternators.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:40 AM Bud K < budkeil(at)gmail.com > wrote:
Art,
Yes I could upgrade to a larger, pad mounted alternator but would rather use what
I have. I recognize the added expense and complexity of going the e-bus route.
And yes, that pitot heat power is over half of my e-bus load. I don't see
myself continuing to fly in IMC with a primary system failure and would head to
VMC ASAP.
Since your B/U alternator has the capacity, did you implement the e-bus architecture
or put everything on a main bus?
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
Friendship is like a stone. A stone has no value, but when you rub two stones together
properly, sparks of fire emerge.
Rabbi Mordechai of Lechovitz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin |
430
Unimpeachable logic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the
most sensible thing), or to investing much less money in a much
older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a KLN94, which I'm
sure is also unsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much lower.
Spending 10 to 20 AMUs for what could end up being, for all practical
purposes in my flying world, 'art', just isn't going to happen.
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kelly McMullen wrote:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in paying someone to
> install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480 that is no longer
> supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is barely supported,
> and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go unsupported within the next
> 5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8 years ago for that
> reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat anchors.
> So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the Apollo designed
> units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their expected useful
> life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using computer chips not
> made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are already 13 yrs
> old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and displays that wear
> out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.
>
> On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> > Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a
> > comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach
> > certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know
> > what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the
> > 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only two
> > opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their
> > choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate
> > sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin |
430
Have you considered an SL-30?
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 12:25 PM Charlie England
wrote:
> Unimpeachable logic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the
> most sensible thing), or to investing much less money in a much
> older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a KLN94, which I'm
> sure is also unsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much lower.
>
> Spending 10 to 20 AMUs for what could end up being, for all practical
> purposes in my flying world, 'art', just isn't going to happen.
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kelly McMullen
> wrote:
>
>> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>>
>> Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in paying someone to
>> install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480 that is no longer
>> supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is barely supported,
>> and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go unsupported within the next
>> 5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8 years ago for that
>> reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat anchors.
>> So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the Apollo designed
>> units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their expected useful
>> life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using computer chips not
>> made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are already 13 yrs
>> old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and displays that wear
>> out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.
>>
>> On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>> > Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a
>> > comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach
>> > certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know
>> > what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the
>> > 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only
>> two
>> > opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their
>> > choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate
>> > sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Charlie
>
>
--
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
This is indeed very odd. The D-100 case is made of alum, I think.
Anything inside could possibly be a power-supply coil, but that should
not be a permanent magnet. Long shot -- try to remove the battery pack.
How old is the D-100? Still under warranty?
I would be tempted to carefully use a simple demagnetizer. Radio Shack
used to sell them for something like $20. Tapehead demagnetizer.
Finn
On 5/14/2021 11:32 AM, cskelt wrote:
>
> Here's a really weird one that occurred recently. Flying on a North-Easterly
heading the PAI-700 panel mount compass informed me I was heading West. This is
a new problem and the photo taken some years ago shows the relative positions
of the instruments with reasonable agreement between the panel mount compass
and the Dynon EFIS.
>
> Taxiing around a circle without the Dynon EFIS D100 in the panel gives good compass
readings. With the EFIS in place the compass reading remains between South
and West. I took the compass and EFIS to the compass manufacturer, Precision
Aviation, where they confirmed that the compass is OK and the EFIS magnetization
too strong for a mu-metal shield to help.
>
> The next photo below shows a compass correctly pointing North and the second
shows it after rotating to point to the EFIS display, folded out from the box
of electronics and sensors. The magnetization appears to be concentrated halfway
up the left side of the display.
>
> Dynon Technical Support deny there is anything wrong and my eventual request
to buy a replacement display went unanswered. This led to a google search for
a demagnetizer that found many plausible devices for up to a few hundred dollars
that's no doubt less than a new display. Can anyone advise if it's feasible
to demagnetize a display screen and offer any tips, or ideas as to how the display
became magnetized?
>
> I understand that a standalone magnetic compass isn't required if you have an
remote electronic magnetometer but I appreciate the redundancy and the units
did after all coexist harmoniously for some years.
>
> Thanks in advance!!
> Chris Skelt
>
> LNC2 N1990L at KIWS.
>
> --------
> Chris Skelt
> Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501927#501927
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/d100_magnetized_798.jpg
>
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
Best thing would be to email Dynon support. They are very good.
On 5/14/2021 10:09 AM, Finn Lassen wrote:
>
> This is indeed very odd. The D-100 case is made of alum, I think.
> Anything inside could possibly be a power-supply coil, but that should
> not be a permanent magnet. Long shot -- try to remove the battery pack.
>
> How old is the D-100? Still under warranty?
>
> I would be tempted to carefully use a simple demagnetizer. Radio Shack
> used to sell them for something like $20. Tapehead demagnetizer.
>
> Finn
>
> On 5/14/2021 11:32 AM, cskelt wrote:
>>
>> Here's a really weird one that occurred recently. Flying on a
>> North-Easterly heading the PAI-700 panel mount compass informed me I
>> was heading West. This is a new problem and the photo taken some years
>> ago shows the relative positions of the instruments with reasonable
>> agreement between the panel mount compass and the Dynon EFIS.
>>
>> Taxiing around a circle without the Dynon EFIS D100 in the panel gives
>> good compass readings. With the EFIS in place the compass reading
>> remains between South and West. I took the compass and EFIS to the
>> compass manufacturer, Precision Aviation, where they confirmed that
>> the compass is OK and the EFIS magnetization too strong for a mu-metal
>> shield to help.
>>
>> The next photo below shows a compass correctly pointing North and the
>> second shows it after rotating to point to the EFIS display, folded
>> out from the box of electronics and sensors. The magnetization appears
>> to be concentrated halfway up the left side of the display.
>>
>> Dynon Technical Support deny there is anything wrong and my eventual
>> request to buy a replacement display went unanswered. This led to a
>> google search for a demagnetizer that found many plausible devices for
>> up to a few hundred dollars that's no doubt less than a new display.
>> Can anyone advise if it's feasible to demagnetize a display screen and
>> offer any tips, or ideas as to how the display became magnetized?
>>
>> I understand that a standalone magnetic compass isn't required if you
>> have an remote electronic magnetometer but I appreciate the redundancy
>> and the units did after all coexist harmoniously for some years.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!!
>> Chris Skelt
>>
>> LNC2 N1990L at KIWS.
>>
>> --------
>> Chris Skelt
>> Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501927#501927
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/d100_magnetized_798.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
>
>Dynon Technical Support deny there is anything wrong and my eventual
>request to buy a replacement display went unanswered. This led to a
>google search for a demagnetizer that found many plausible devices
>for up to a few hundred dollars that's no doubt less than a new
>display. Can anyone advise if it's feasible to demagnetize a display
>screen and offer any tips, or ideas as to how the display became magnetized?
>
>I understand that a standalone magnetic compass isn't required if
>you have an remote electronic magnetometer but I appreciate the
>redundancy and the units did after all coexist harmoniously for some years.
>
>Thanks in advance!!
>Chris Skelt
Chris, this is a real puzzler! I'm sorry that
Dynon hasn't shown more interest in resolving
the issue.
I've dropped a note to John Torode at
Dynon (the head cheese). Let's see if he
is willing to be of assistance.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Canopy antenna? |
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
Le 12/05/2021 22:21, Peter Pengilly a crit:
>
> Everything is a compromise. Copper tape can be used to create an antenna, the
more of the antenna that is vertical the better the performance. A BNC connector
can be soldered on to the foot, not sure how the ground plane would work,
perhaps it needs to be a dipole? I haven't been very close to anyone who has used
a tape antenna, but my impression was always that they required more maintenance,
and often have worse performance, than installed antennas. How important
is a reliable radio against saving weight?
Peter,
Thank you for your advice. Indeed the main point is having a reliable
radio, so the antenna (Bob Archer) will be in the glass fiber fin, as
originally intended.
I'll may be able to locate some quality smaller diameter coaxial with
acceptable performance as compared to our good old RG58.
Thanks for your help,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | "cskelt" <cskelt(at)cantab.net> |
Thanks to all for the quick replies. It's not the battery -- I removed it and
checked. Nor is it the aluminum carcass that I also removed before partially
disconnecting the display and folding it down so the face rests on the bench.
The photo shows the compass pointing at the display with the back side up.
I'm as certain as I can be that the magnetism is "something" at the edge of the
screen. The Dynon unit is over ten years old and had 300 hours of faultless
performance behind it before this happened.
I've had excellent service up until now from Dynon--several issues with the EMS
were dealt with promptly and effectively. And the 360 degree taxi test with
and without the EFIS in place was suggested by one of the Dynon guys on the stand
at Sun-n-Fun.
--------
Chris Skelt
Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501940#501940
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Canopy antenna? |
>Thank you for your advice. Indeed the main point is having a
>reliable radio, so the antenna (Bob Archer) will be in the glass
>fiber fin, as originally intended.
good show
>I'll may be able to locate some quality smaller diameter coaxial
>with acceptable performance as compared to our good old RG58.
RG174 See if you can get a supplier that offers prefab
cables. Putting connectors on this coax is NOT for the
novice wire slinger.
here is one supplier . . . there are no doubt others
https://tinyurl.com/yfgmx3z2
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
>
>I've had excellent service up until now from Dynon--several issues
>with the EMS were dealt with promptly and effectively. And the 360
>degree taxi test with and without the EFIS in place was suggested by
>one of the Dynon guys on the stand at Sun-n-Fun.
You've hit them with a ringer . . . I'm not
surprised at the reaction of the troops in
the trenches . . . but it's all just physics
and the answer will be simple.
Let's see if John T can help out . . .
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1dw" <n1deltawhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
Chris,
Just a thought here - have you tried to place the D100 near other compass
indicators to verify that the D100 is indeed magnetized? (The compass on
your iPhone (if that is what you have) is apparently not affected by a
nearby magnet!). Did you move it around and rotate it to see if the
apparent magnetism is localized at some point in the D100? Is it possible
that you had a steel screw or nut to secure the unit in place? What would
happen if you removed both units from the panel and positioned them in
various arrangements in magnetically benign area?
Just thinking out loud!
Doug Windhorn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of cskelt
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 2:47 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display
Thanks to all for the quick replies. It's not the battery -- I removed it
and checked. Nor is it the aluminum carcass that I also removed before
partially disconnecting the display and folding it down so the face rests on
the bench. The photo shows the compass pointing at the display with the back
side up.
I'm as certain as I can be that the magnetism is "something" at the edge of
the screen. The Dynon unit is over ten years old and had 300 hours of
faultless performance behind it before this happened.
I've had excellent service up until now from Dynon--several issues with the
EMS were dealt with promptly and effectively. And the 360 degree taxi test
with and without the EFIS in place was suggested by one of the Dynon guys on
the stand at Sun-n-Fun.
--------
Chris Skelt
Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501940#501940
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl Schroeder <n233ee(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin |
430
I am on your side Charlie England!
> On May 14, 2021, at 11:27 AM, Charlie England wrote
:
>
> =EF=BB
> Unimpeachable logic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the
most sensible thing), or to investing much less money in a much older/cheap
er nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a KLN94, which I'm sure is also u
nsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much lower.
>
> Spending 10 to 20 AMUs for what could end up being, for all practical purp
oses in my flying world, 'art', just isn't going to happen.
>
>> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kelly McMullen wro
te:
com>
>>
>> Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in paying someone to
>> install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480 that is no longer
>> supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is barely supported,
>> and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go unsupported within the next
>> 5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8 years ago for that
>> reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat anchors.
>> So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the Apollo designed
>> units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their expected useful
>> life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using computer chips not
>> made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are already 13 yrs
>> old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and displays that wear
>> out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.
>>
>> On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>> > Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can give a
>> > comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of adding an approach
>> > certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly don't know
>> > what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more common, and the
>> > 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've heard only tw
o
>> > opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said their
>> > choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an adequate
>> > sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Charlie
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin |
430
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Certainly. Used, the market prices I've monitored over the past few
years are within a few hundred dollars of non-WAAS 430s. I've got an
SL40 in the panel now; I've considered purchasing used a VAL 2000 (uses
the SL30 protocol), and a cheap non-WAAS gps to go with it.
I really can't make any purchase make financial sense, but I need to at
least be able to deceive myself on the value.
On 5/14/2021 11:42 AM, David Carter wrote:
> Have you considered an SL-30?
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 12:25 PM Charlie England > wrote:
>
> Unimpeachablelogic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm
> honest, the most sensible thing), or to investing much less money
> in a much older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a
> KLN94, which I'm sure is also unsupported but the pain of entry
> (and exit) is much lower.
>
> Spending 10 to 20 AMUs for what could end up being, for all
> practical purposes in my flying world, 'art', just isn't going to
> happen.
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kelly McMullen
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Given the install costs, whether in time/effort, or in paying
> someone to
> install, seems to me a bad idea to consider the 480 that is no
> longer
> supported, the 430 if not upgraded to WAAS, which is barely
> supported,
> and even the WAAS unit that is likely to go unsupported within
> the next
> 5 years. I made the choice to go to a 650 about 7-8 years ago
> for that
> reason, and they are ever closer to becoming boat anchors.
> So, to me the discussion about ease of use between the Apollo
> designed
> units and the Garmin is greatly overshadowed by their expected
> useful
> life. Both original units are over 20 yrs old, using computer
> chips not
> made for 20 yrs, and even the upgraded WAAS units are already
> 13 yrs
> old. It seems like very few avionics with chips and displays
> that wear
> out are supported much past 20 yrs and some much less.
>
> On 5/13/2021 6:54 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> > Have any of you IFR flyers flown both the 430 & 480, and can
> give a
> > comparison of the two? I'm toying with the idea of adding an
> approach
> > certified GPS to the RV, but I'm 'not yet rated', so I truly
> don't know
> > what I don't know. I do know that the 430 is far more
> common,and the
> > 480 seems to sell for less money in the used market. I've
> heard only two
> > opinions comparing the two; diametrically opposed. Each said
> their
> > choice was far easier to use in an IFR environment. Not an
> adequate
> > sample size, so I'd like to get a bit more of a consensus.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Charlie
>
> --
> ---
> David Carter
> david(at)carter.net
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: opinions needed: Apollo/Garmin GNS480 vs Garmin |
430
Charlie,
I have hundreds of hours flying behind a KLN94; I had one in my Arrow
(which I sold when I bought my BD-4C kit). I would not willingly fly with a
KLN94 again. Compared to the current generation of Garmins, the user
interface is horrible. The screen is tiny. And the database update process
is atrocious.
To update the KLN94 database, you have a couple of choices. a) You can
connect a computer running Windows 95 (that is the last version supported
by Bendix King's software, IIRC) to the KLN94 via a serial cable (yes!
serial, not USB) and run the magic software for about 20 minutes. b) You
can use a specially modified CompactFlash card which has to be written with
a no-longer-produced CF card writer by the magic software.
Yes, the Garmins are expensive. But having used them, they are worth every
penny. Garmin got the UI right.
I have VAL nav and comm radios. They are OK. Would I buy them again?
Probably. Are they as good as Garmins? No. Like you, I bought them for the
size and because the SL30 and SL40 are pretty darned expensive.
I don't remember what you have for primary instrumentation. I installed an
MGL glass panel. It's built-in GPS is excellent. I happily used it for
primary navigation before installing the GPS175. If you don't need your GPS
to be IFR-certified, have you considered something like this? It looks like
you can get a whole MGL MX1 system for under $2000. See
https://www.michiganavionics.com/product-category/efis/
One last thought, the MGL GPS antenna is a little puck which you install
*inside* the airplane. I thought that was bogus but did as instructed. I
have it under the windshield, and it works beautifully, regardless of my
direction of flight. My airplane has an aluminum fuselage. The MGL GPS
actually tracks better than the Garmin.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:35 AM Charlie England
wrote:
> Unimpeachable logic; which reduces me to doing nothing (if I'm honest, the
> most sensible thing), or to investing much less money in a much
> older/cheaper nav/ILS radio, & possibly something like a KLN94, which I'm
> sure is also unsupported but the pain of entry (and exit) is much lower.
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*Friendship is like a stone. A stone has no value, but when you rub two
stones together properly, sparks of fire emerge. *
Rabbi Mordechai of Lechovitz
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Didn't see the pictures before.
Is that a steel rod holding the display in place?
Anything steel or iron, if removable do so.
Then simply demagnetize it.
Actually, the D-100 has a remote compass, right?
If so I don't see any reason you couldn't demagnetize the D-100. Others
here may give good reasons why not.
Finn
On 5/14/2021 5:46 PM, cskelt wrote:
>
> Thanks to all for the quick replies. It's not the battery -- I removed it and
checked. Nor is it the aluminum carcass that I also removed before partially
disconnecting the display and folding it down so the face rests on the bench.
The photo shows the compass pointing at the display with the back side up.
>
> I'm as certain as I can be that the magnetism is "something" at the edge of the
screen. The Dynon unit is over ten years old and had 300 hours of faultless
performance behind it before this happened.
>
> I've had excellent service up until now from Dynon--several issues with the EMS
were dealt with promptly and effectively. And the 360 degree taxi test with
and without the EFIS in place was suggested by one of the Dynon guys on the
stand at Sun-n-Fun.
>
> --------
> Chris Skelt
> Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501940#501940
>
>
---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Today I positioned a hand-held compass near my 10 year old D-180 screen.
The compass swung 130 degrees as it neared the left side of the screen, just
like cskelt's. Luckily my plane has a remote magnetometer, no panel mounted
compass. The master switch was off during the test. My instrument panel
does not have steel parts, just aluminum.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501967#501967
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | any concerns vibration fatigue mounting tab 40 A relay? |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Any concerns about vibration fatigue of a 40 A automotive relay's single mounting
tab?
For instance B&C S8009-1.
Firewall mounted Lycoming tractor aircraft. Question from an RV 14 builder.
Thanks
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?usp=sharing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501968#501968
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: any concerns vibration fatigue mounting tab 40 |
A relay?
At 04:43 PM 5/16/2021, you wrote:
>
>
>Any concerns about vibration fatigue of a 40 A automotive relay's
>single mounting tab?
No
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | $lower$ lacing material |
I told the list I'd look into some of lower
cost options for Dacron/polyester lacing
material.
I brought this spool in off Amazon for about 10.50
postage paid.
https://tinyurl.com/yhwfjvfb
It's indeed the same stuff as the mil-spec
flat lace. Impervious to 400F exposure. Quite
adequate in strength for bundle ties. It's
thinner so easier to put 'pressure' on the
constrained materials . . . but it works real
well with the noose-knot but you don't need
to put a strangle hold on the wrap.
It will live happily under the cowl too.
I'm keeping this spool in my bin of tying
materials. It will be handy for sewing up
rips in flat materials too.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
At 04:28 PM 5/16/2021, you wrote:
>
>Today I positioned a hand-held compass near my 10 year old D-180 screen.
>The compass swung 130 degrees as it neared the left side of the screen, just
>like cskelt's. Luckily my plane has a remote magnetometer, no panel mounted
>compass. The master switch was off during the test. My instrument panel
>does not have steel parts, just aluminum.
Interesting! Thank you for that. Perhaps John T
can enlighten us as to the cause.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | AeroVoltz 270 battery for sale |
I have an essentially new AeroVoltz 270 battery
I purchased new a couple months ago to evaluate
for a client.
https://tinyurl.com/yz6d4jpn
Found that it does indeed do what it claims; also
determined that it was not suited to his task.
Will put it up on eBay if nobody here on the
list isn't interested in it first.
Comes with factory instructions and the 'reset'
cable. Will include the plots of laboratory
data gleaned from this sample.
Would like to get $100 for it postage paid
to US addresses.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | M43435/II/B Lacing tape |
Here's a attractive option for the 'good'
stuff:
https://tinyurl.com/yjtp85vn
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: $lower$ lacing material |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 5/16/2021 8:10 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> I told the list I'd look into some of lower
> cost options for Dacron/polyester lacing
> material.
>
> I brought this spool in off Amazon for about 10.50
> postage paid.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yhwfjvfb
>
> It's indeed the same stuff as the mil-spec
> flat lace. Impervious to 400F exposure. Quite
> adequate in strength for bundle ties. It's
> thinner so easier to put 'pressure' on the
> constrained materials . . . but it works real
> well with the noose-knot but you don't need
> to put a strangle hold on the wrap.
> It will live happily under the cowl too.
>
> I'm keeping this spool in my bin of tying
> materials. It will be handy for sewing up
> rips in flat materials too.
>
> Bob . . .
>
My a&p neighbor just rewired his RV6 using rib lacing tape made for
fabric covered a/c. Doesn't seem to be any cheaper than wire lacing
tape, but what about this?
https://www.sailrite.com/Twine-5-ply-Waxed-Flat-500-Feet?gclid=CjwKCAjwhYOFBhBkEiwASF3KGUDkcsPQ7--vbb4r8mxFYHAoP4a0ug-DwHkdmqhsDxorRHMFarFLZhoCBiUQAvD_BwE
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: $lower$ lacing material |
>My a&p neighbor just rewired his RV6 using rib lacing tape made for
>fabric covered a/c. Doesn't seem to be any cheaper than wire lacing
>tape, but what about this?
>https://www.sailrite.com/Twine-5-ply-Waxed-Flat-500-Feet?gclid=CjwKCAjwhYOFBhBkEiwASF3KGUDkcsPQ7--vbb4r8mxFYHAoP4a0ug-DwHkdmqhsDxorRHMFarFLZhoCBiUQAvD_BwE
>
It's polyester . . . should be fine. Good find.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | "cskelt" <cskelt(at)cantab.net> |
Thank you Joe Gores as a 10 year old D180 and D100 of similar vintage presumably
share a screen type, so this isn't a unique phenomenon. What Joe's data point
can't tell us is whether his magnetism was always present or occurred recently,
like mine, after years of non-magnetic functioning.
In reply to Doug Windhorn's post, I removed the compass and D100 from the panel,
opened up the D100, and folded out the display to persuade myself that the magnetism
was in the display, not the electronics in the carcass, and to establish
that it's permanent magnetism, not RF interference from live avionics. I
used the panel mount compass and a hiking compass. The (admittedly rather cryptic)
photos in the original post were intended to illustrate this. The threaded
steel rod that locks the EFIS into the mounting tray does not appear to be
magnetized.
If these devices do indeed spontaneously magnetize, the need is for a demagnetizer,
not a replacement screen, as the latter would be a relatively expensive and
potentially only temporary fix.
Chris Skelt
--------
Chris Skelt
Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501983#501983
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | "cskelt" <cskelt(at)cantab.net> |
Thank you Joe Gores as a 10 year old D180 and D100 of similar vintage presumably
share a screen type, so this isn't a unique phenomenon. What Joe's data point
can't tell us is whether his magnetism was always present or occurred recently,
like mine, after years of non-magnetic functioning.
In reply to Doug Windhorn's post, I removed the compass and D100 from the panel,
opened up the D100, and folded out the display to persuade myself that the magnetism
was in the display, not the electronics in the carcass, and to establish
that it's permanent magnetism, not RF interference from live avionics. I
used the panel mount compass and a hiking compass. The (admittedly rather cryptic)
photos in the original post were intended to illustrate this. The threaded
steel rod that locks the EFIS into the mounting tray does not appear to be
magnetized.
If these devices do indeed spontaneously magnetize, the need is for a demagnetizer,
not a replacement screen, as the latter would be a relatively expensive and
potentially only temporary fix.
Chris Skelt
--------
Chris Skelt
Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501985#501985
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Upon further investigation, I don't think my D-180 display is magnetized after
all. I pulled the D-180 part way out of the instrument panel without
disconnecting any cables. Then I moved the compass around. The magnetic
interference seemed to be stronger under the instrument panel. Eventually I
determined that the control stick is magnetized and attracts the south end of
the compass needle. As I moved the compass around the control stick, the
needle always pointed at the stick. Sorry about posting an incorrect data point
yesterday.
It is worth a try for Chris to try demagnetizing the steel locking rod with a
soldering gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2sFp5Blg_g
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501991#501991
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: M43435/II/B Lacing tape |
What about these?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B4GCJV2/ref=sspa_dk_detail_5?psc=1&pd_rd_i=
B00B4GCJV2p13NParams&smidAY1HFZHO49U&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE
yWThRSlY3WU9YR1BRJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMDkyMjA3Uk9CQkY3UlFINjVMJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFk
SWQ9QTA5Njg4NDMxUDdMUVEyNDdSOUxVJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsMiZhY3Rpb249Y2xp
Y2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU
Ty-rap (tm) says they were invented to be used in airliners. And at a nickel
each, they=99re pretty reasonable.
Their literature cites applications on Mars rovers & Space Shuttle.
Is there something inherently better about lacing than Ty-raps?
-Jeff
> On May 16, 2021, at 18:58, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect
ric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
>
> Here's a attractive option for the 'good'
> stuff:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yjtp85vn
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1dw" <n1deltawhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
Chris,
Thanks for the feedback on your experiment. Out of curiosity, I have a D10A
out of the panel - I was going to place it near my glareshield mount
magnetic compass today to see if it produced similar results, but got
sidetracked by other gremlins, so will have to wait until Thursday to do
that check. Will let you know what I find.
Doug Windhorn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of cskelt
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 6:52 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display
Thank you Joe Gores as a 10 year old D180 and D100 of similar vintage
presumably share a screen type, so this isn't a unique phenomenon. What
Joe's data point can't tell us is whether his magnetism was always present
or occurred recently, like mine, after years of non-magnetic functioning.
In reply to Doug Windhorn's post, I removed the compass and D100 from the
panel, opened up the D100, and folded out the display to persuade myself
that the magnetism was in the display, not the electronics in the carcass,
and to establish that it's permanent magnetism, not RF interference from
live avionics. I used the panel mount compass and a hiking compass. The
(admittedly rather cryptic) photos in the original post were intended to
illustrate this. The threaded steel rod that locks the EFIS into the
mounting tray does not appear to be magnetized.
If these devices do indeed spontaneously magnetize, the need is for a
demagnetizer, not a replacement screen, as the latter would be a relatively
expensive and potentially only temporary fix.
Chris Skelt
--------
Chris Skelt
Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501985#501985
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: M43435/II/B Lacing tape |
At 04:33 PM 5/17/2021, you wrote:
>What about these?
>
>https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0
0B4GCJV2/ref=sspa_dk_detail_5?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B00B4GCJV2p13NParams&smid
AY1HFZHO49U&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyWThRSlY3WU9YR1BRJmVuY3J5
cHRlZElkPUEwMDkyMjA3Uk9CQkY3UlFINjVMJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA5Njg4NDMxUDdMUVEy
NDdSOUxVJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsMiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExv
Z0NsaWNrPXRydWU
>
>Ty-rap (tm) says they were invented to be used
>in airliners. And at a nickel each, they=99re pretty reasonable.
>
>Their literature cites applications on Mars rovers & Space Shuttle.
Sincerely doubt that! Tye-wraps on the
rovers would be at least tefzel if not
nomex. Used work with a guy who was a
big-time tech with an air transport
maintenance firm. I'll see if I can track
him down and ask about tye-wraps.
According to the data sheet:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Misc/Thomas&Betts/TY24MX_M3367.pdf
intended for indoor applications. Rated to only
165F. These are made from 6.6 Nylon . . . not
nearly the capability of Dacron. Virtually
everything you can buy from the catalogs in tye-wraps
will be nylon. Problematic under the cowl but
okay every place else.
>Is there something inherently better about lacing than Ty-raps?
Tye-wraps ARE more convenient . . . but
largely a personal preference.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Try These Ideas to Help with Accounting Homework |
| From: | "gojon1955bo" <gojon1955bo(at)gmail.com> |
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Besides, with an accountant coming up with a brilliant strategy, you are assured
of submitting a budget that will propel yourself to the top of the pay list.
That means you stand a chance of improving overall performance in the discipline.
Have a Plan
Some students forget to start with a plan until it is too late. Obviously, when
planning, it is not always that simple. A planner will come in handy for virtually
everyone, including the lecturers and the professors. You will not have
to spend much time figuring out what activities to attend to apart from basic
accounting.
A proper schedule will ensure that you have enough time to handle the actual accounts
for the different areas of study. An outline will also enable one to stay
focused. Remember, keeping track of the numerical score will be very important.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502000#502000
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
At 02:28 PM 5/17/2021, you wrote:
>
>Upon further investigation, I don't think my D-180 display is
>magnetized after
>all. I pulled the D-180 part way out of the instrument panel without
>disconnecting any cables. Then I moved the compass around. The magnetic
>interference seemed to be stronger under the instrument panel. Eventually I
>determined that the control stick is magnetized and attracts the south end of
>the compass needle. As I moved the compass around the control stick, the
>needle always pointed at the stick. Sorry about posting an
>incorrect data point yesterday.
> It is worth a try for Chris to try demagnetizing the steel locking
> rod with a soldering gun.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2sFp5Blg_g
I received this note from John this morning:
================== received from John Torode 5/18/20 ==============
bob,
we have repeated the experiment with one of our d100s with the same
result: the magnetic fields emanating from the d100
cause significant compass errors. we believe this is from currents
inside the device, not from any material becoming magnetized.
in fact we would try not to include much ferrous material (d-subs i guess).
my electronic compass has a definite signature from the pulsating
current in the power leads to the strobe, which are some distance
away.
what is puzzling is his claim that it used to work fine. one idea is
that the power wire to the d100 has moved.
we have spoken with him before (i am disappointed that any query from
a customer goes unanswered), and have concluded that
the panel is a bad place for a compass because of the many currents around.
we do not think there is a reliable solution besides moving the
compass to a magnetically quiet place.
sorry,
john
==========================================================================
Compass interference issues can be difficult to track down.
When Beech began offering the B&C SD-20 variants on the
A36, we encountered a situation where turning the aux
alternator on/off caused an unacceptable swing in the
cowl mounted wet compass. We had to move it up onto the
windshield.
The distance moved was but a few inches but more toward
the fringes of the magnetic field emanating from the
rear of an energized alternator which was on the OTHER
side of the firewall!
Strength of magnetic forces vary with both
distance and position. The forces do not radiate
in uniformly dispersed spherical pattern. To make
matters more complex, they can be strongly
influenced by passive features located within
the field.
Steel tube airplanes were subject to magnetization
of structure . . . sometimes difficult to neutralize.
It was a rare instance that some interference
was mitigated by demagnetizing some rogue source
of magnetic force. The 'fix' nearly always called
for a design change.
We also know that the distance over which
a given field has influence has a profound
effect on strength.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | "Willsmith000" <hansfordresortnarkanda(at)gmail.com> |
This is very helpful, i was looking for it
Biofit Probiotic (https://clickbankproductreviews.org/biofit-probiotic-2021/)
Okinawa Flat Belly Tonic (https://clickbankproductreviews.org/okinawa-flat-belly-tonic/)
CarboFix (https://clickbankproductreviews.org/carbofix-review/)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502003#502003
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rickifly <gambler7425(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: M43435/II/B Lacing tape |
The TYZ525M is the 330degF, flame resistant, low smoke Ty-rap that is
Flouropolymer from ABB/Thomas&Betts but very pricey at $250 for a pack of
100.
Regards,
iFlyLSA
On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 8:55 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>
> Here's a attractive option for the 'good'
> stuff:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yjtp85vn
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Try These Ideas to Help with Accounting Homework |
| From: | "Willsmith000" <hansfordresortnarkanda(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for your post.
Biofit Probiotic (https://clickbankproductreviews.org/biofit-probiotic-2021/)
Okinawa Flat Belly Tonic (https://clickbankproductreviews.org/okinawa-flat-belly-tonic/)
CarboFix (https://clickbankproductreviews.org/carbofix-review/)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502004#502004
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: M43435/II/B Lacing tape |
At 02:11 PM 5/18/2021, you wrote:
>The TYZ525M is the 330degF, flame resistant, low smoke Ty-rap that
>is Flouropolymer from ABB/Thomas&Betts but very pricey at $250 for a
>pack of 100.
Yup. That would be Tefzel ties.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net> |
When we were building two airplanes in a large hangar my rudder cables got relocated
to a DC welding machine where they laid for several days while the welder
was used several times. I located my remote compass to the rear bottom of the
fuselage ( right between the galvanized rudder cables ). When trying to calibrate
the compass it would swing wildly when moving the rudder even slightly.
We tried degauzing with a solder gun and even found an old TV degauzing ring to
no avail. Finally moved the compass up high above the baggage compartment and
it worked fine.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | was "Contactor Questions" now battery in the trunk |
This is kinda related to contactors...
On the BD4 that I am rebuilding, the battery is behind the baggage
compartment, with a really fat wire running up to the firewall.
IO 470 engine so lots of amps required for start.
Is there a recommended contactor placement/battery disconnect protocol out
there?
I'm thinking safety in the event of an incident which might short out the
fat wire to the fuselage.
My setup is very rudimentary (steam 8 pack), conventional engine gauges,
perhaps a mini EFIS.
I did try the Forum search but struggled a little....
Best Regards,
Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 05:46, A Lumley wrote:
> andrew.lumley(at)sympatico.ca>
>
> Thanks to you both for the quick feedback. I'll include the jumper from
> the contactor "I" terminal to the starter with the extra diode.
>
> You are correct that B&C no longer sells the crowbar module so I was going
> to build my own from your crowbar schematics.
>
> Thanks again, I'm sure I'll have lots more questions...
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501914#501914
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: was "Contactor Questions" now battery in the trunk |
Hey Bob,
It sounds like you're asking the right questions...
The master contactor should be close enough to the battery so that the fat
positive cable from the batt to the solenoid can be 18 inches or less.=C2
- Then run the fat wire from the other side of the solenoid forward.
Then, just before the crash, when you're running the just-before-I-hit-the-
ground checklist, you shut off the master --- just like we were all taught
as student pilots.=C2- That makes the length of cable running forward ine
rt (obviously) and therefore, if it gets damaged in the crash, it won't cau
se a fire.
(This scenario requires a bit more engineering in modern aircraft where all
the flight instruments are electric (EFIS) and you might want to be watchi
ng airspeed as you try to reduce your kinetic energy before impact without
stall/spinning.=C2- But, with your instrumentation it is moot.)
BTW - this is exactly how my 1965 Cherokee is wired.
-Jeff
il.com> wrote:
This is kinda related to contactors...
On the BD4 that I am rebuilding, the battery is behind the baggage compartm
ent, with a really fat wire running up to the firewall.=C2-
IO 470 engine so lots of amps required for start.
Is there a recommended contactor placement/battery disconnect=C2-protocol
out there?I'm thinking safety in the event of an incident which might shor
t out the fat wire to the fuselage.
My setup is very rudimentary (steam 8 pack), conventional engine gauges, pe
rhaps a mini EFIS.=C2-=C2-I did try the Forum search but struggled a li
ttle....
Best Regards,Bob Verwey082 331 2727
=C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-
On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 05:46, A Lumley wrote:
o.ca>
Thanks to you both for the quick feedback. I'll include the jumper from the
contactor "I" terminal to the starter with the extra diode.
You are correct that B&C no longer sells the crowbar module so I was going
to build my own from your crowbar schematics.
Thanks again, I'm sure I'll have lots more questions...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501914#501914
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
b Site -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: was "Contactor Questions" now battery in the trunk |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Rest of the story is that the starter contactor can be on the firewall.
That way, only one long fat wire from the back is needed. The
source-side terminal of the starter contactor becomes the distribution
point for all your master contactor-controlled 'stuff' in the forward
cockpit, etc. Any required 'E-bus' feed can be much smaller, & protected
with either a fusible link or appropriate sized slow acting fuse. You
should be able to find the concepts detailed in the Z drawings.
Charlie
On 5/20/2021 10:39 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
> Hey Bob,
>
> It sounds like you're asking the right questions...
>
> The master contactor should be close enough to the battery so that the
> fat positive cable from the batt to the solenoid can be 18 inches or
> less. Then run the fat wire from the other side of the solenoid forward.
>
> Then, just before the crash, when you're running the
> just-before-I-hit-the-ground checklist, you shut off the master ---
> just like we were all taught as student pilots. That makes the length
> of cable running forward inert (obviously) and therefore, if it gets
> damaged in the crash, it won't cause a fire.
>
> (This scenario requires a bit more engineering in modern aircraft
> where all the flight instruments are electric (EFIS) and you might
> want to be watching airspeed as you try to reduce your kinetic energy
> before impact without stall/spinning. But, with your instrumentation
> it is moot.)
>
> BTW - this is exactly how my 1965 Cherokee is wired.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> This is kinda related to contactors...
>
> On the BD4 that I am rebuilding, the battery is behind the baggage
> compartment, with a really fat wire running up to the firewall.
>
> IO 470 engine so lots of amps required for start.
>
> Is there a recommended contactor placement/battery disconnectprotocol
> out there?
> I'm thinking safety in the event of an incident which might short out
> the fat wire to the fuselage.
>
> My setup is very rudimentary (steam 8 pack), conventional engine
> gauges, perhaps a mini EFIS.
> I did try the Forum search but struggled a little....
>
> Best Regards,
> Bob Verwey
> 082 331 2727
>
>
> On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 05:46, A Lumley > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Thanks to you both for the quick feedback. I'll include the jumper
> from the contactor "I" terminal to the starter with the extra diode.
>
> You are correct that B&C no longer sells the crowbar module so I
> was going to build my own from your crowbar schematics.
>
> Thanks again, I'm sure I'll have lots more questions...
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501914#501914
> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501914#501914>
>
>
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: was "Contactor Questions" now battery in the |
trunk
At 11:57 PM 5/19/2021, you wrote:
>This is kinda related to contactors...
>
>On the BD4 that I am rebuilding, the battery is
>behind the baggage compartment, with a really
>fat wire running up to the firewall.=C2
>
>IO 470 engine so lots of amps required for start.
>
>Is there a recommended contactor
>placement/battery disconnect=C2 protocol out there?
>I'm thinking safety in the event of an incident
>which might short out the fat wire to the fuselage.
Battery contactor located as close as practical
to battery; starter contactor as close as practical
to starter. FAT wire connects battery contactor
to starter contactor and main bus feeder.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.usa(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Bob,
I re-read your chapter on thermocouples.
The question I have is: what voltages are introduced at
copper/thermocouple wire junctions?
You show them in an ice bath. Does that mean that no voltages are
generated at 0 degC at copper/chromel and copper/alumel junctions?
I made a probe using K-type wire in a 5/32" brass tube, squeezed shut
over the twisted wires and then silver-soldered to make it water tight.
When I connected it to my engine monitor it read as much as 220 deg F in
boiling water. In other words 8F too high.
Now I'm wondering if it's contamination of the joint by brass or silver
solder, or something in the engine monitor.
The Data Acquisition Module for the engine monitor have 16 (x2) inputs
going into MAX4558 8-to-1 multiplexers and from there to a MAX6675
(Type-K to 12 bit digital with cold-junction compensation). They are on
the same PCB, so in theory the temperature should be the same at the
screw connectors and the MAX6675 pins. Terminal block (ED555/DS) is CuZn
with wireguard (the metal under the screw pressing down on wire) is CuSn.
An issue is that the Data Acquisition Module is mounted where it gets
hot (seen as much as 160F). The MAX6675's compensation should be good to
185F, but wondering about the other junctions on the PCB. Since each
thermocouple wire has same path (terminal, PCB cu traces, solder,
multiplexers) any junction voltages should balance out, or?
I have been using LM35 (or similar) temp sensors but they appear to be
failing.
Finn
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Try These Ideas to Help with Accounting Homework |
| From: | "OttilieMccall" <MarkKramer655(at)gmail.com> |
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Isn't that right? If I'm right, there is a solution to all your problems! There
is a very cool service, , which has been helping pupils and students with their
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--------
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502036#502036
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thermocouples |
At 12:45 PM 5/23/2021, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I re-read your chapter on thermocouples.
>
>The question I have is: what voltages are
>introduced at copper/thermocouple wire junctions?
I don't have specific numbers but they
are known. ANY two DISSIMILAR metals
will demonstrate the Seebeck effect.
>You show them in an ice bath. Does that mean
>that no voltages are generated at 0 degC
>at=C2 copper/chromel and copper/alumel junctions?
No, it only means that the voltages generated
are known and STABLE due to the inherent stability
of an ice bath.
>I made a probe using K-type wire in a 5/32"
>brass tube, squeezed shut over the twisted wires
>and then silver-soldered to make it water tight.
The ideal way to bring two thermocouple wires
together is by welding. We used to have a t/c
welder that was nothing more than a 50vdc
power supply fitted with a high resistance
inductor to help stabilize the arc. I.e.
a miniature, low power arc welder.
Before we got the welder the techs would
silver solder the junctions . . . I don't
know if they had done any validation of
the technique.
>When I connected it to my engine monitor it read
>as much as 220 deg F in boiling water. In other words 8F too high.
Do you have other probes that are closer
to 212?
>Now I'm wondering if it's contamination of the
>joint by brass or silver solder, or something in the engine monitor.
You've got several variables there. Try
building up some 'test' junctions with
your stock wire. Make 2 or 3 junctions
simply twisted and compare with your cited
results. Then silver solder; repeat. Finally,
add your housing and check for consistency.
>The Data Acquisition Module for the engine
>monitor have 16 (x2) inputs going into MAX4558
>8-to-1 multiplexers and from there to a MAX6675
>(Type-K to 12 bit digital with cold-junction
>compensation). They are on the same PCB, so in
>theory the temperature should be the same at the
>screw connectors and the MAX6675 pins. Terminal
>block (ED555/DS) is CuZn with wireguard (the
>metal under the screw pressing down on wire) is CuSn.
The nature of the various junctions in
each t/c loop is not critical as long as
they occur in thermally matched pairs.
>An issue is that the Data Acquisition Module is
>mounted where it gets hot (seen as much as
>160F). The MAX6675's compensation should be good
>to 185F, but wondering about the other junctions
>on the PCB. Since each thermocouple wire has
>same path (terminal, PCB cu traces, solder,
>multiplexers) any junction voltages should balance out, or?
If the DAS designer built the signal
conditioning with T/C requirements in mind,
you should be okay . . . but it's worth
confirming. Sort out the probe issues first
then perhaps test the same probes with
the DAS multiplexer in an elevated temperature
environment. (cardboard box with 100W bulb
makes good po' boy's environmental oven).
>I have been using LM35 (or similar) temp sensors
>but they appear to be failing.
What's the highest temperatures of interest
to be explored? If this is a 'scratch built'
DAS system, have you considered RTDs? Much
larger delta-volts/degree and no parasitic
junction issues.
A 100 ohm RTD changes about 0.38ohms/C.
Bias the critter up at 1mA gives you about 380uV
per C. That's about 10x bigger signal than
a K thermocouple. You can run 2 wires for short
runs . . . but if you're really picky, a 3-wire
connection will let you do a direct copper drop
read on the lead wires or a 4-wire for
separate excitation/sense paths.
A down side of little RTDs is that they're
a bit tricky to mount. I usually tack them
onto the end of a shielded trio for a 4-wire
connection then dip the assembly in JB
Kwik for a rugged encapsulation.
Perhaps the simplest thing to do first is to
identify root cause for errors in your
thermocouples.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | "Contactor Questions" , battery in the trunk, now Ground |
power plug
Thanks for the responses to my query....I now have the right solution.
Any recommendations as to how to tie this receptacle into the schematic?
[image: image.png]
More specifically the polarity relay that is indicated.
Best Regards,
Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
On Sun, 23 May 2021 at 19:20, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:57 PM 5/19/2021, you wrote:
>
> This is kinda related to contactors...
>
> On the BD4 that I am rebuilding, the battery is behind the baggage
> compartment, with a really fat wire running up to the firewall.=C3=82
>
> IO 470 engine so lots of amps required for start.
>
> Is there a recommended contactor placement/battery disconnect=C3=82 proto
col
> out there?
> I'm thinking safety in the event of an incident which might short out the
> fat wire to the fuselage.
>
>
> Battery contactor located as close as practical
> to battery; starter contactor as close as practical
> to starter. FAT wire connects battery contactor
> to starter contactor and main bus feeder.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "Contactor Questions" , battery in the trunk, |
now Ground power plug
At 12:02 PM 5/24/2021, you wrote:
>Thanks for the responses to my query....I now have the right solution.
>Any recommendations as to how to tie this receptacle into the schematic?
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z31K.pdf
Your schematic didn't come thru to me. The
link above is to a recommended methodology
for installing this style ground power
connector.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John B <jbsoar(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "Contactor Questions" , battery in the trunk, |
now Ground power plug
Is this external power receptacle on a Western airplane? Or a Yak/CJ?
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 12:27 PM Bob Verwey wrote:
> Thanks for the responses to my query....I now have the right solution.
> Any recommendations as to how to tie this receptacle into the schematic?
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> More specifically the polarity relay that is indicated.
>
> Best Regards,
> Bob Verwey
> 082 331 2727
>
>
> On Sun, 23 May 2021 at 19:20, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 11:57 PM 5/19/2021, you wrote:
>>
>> This is kinda related to contactors...
>>
>> On the BD4 that I am rebuilding, the battery is behind the baggage
>> compartment, with a really fat wire running up to the firewall.=C3=82
>>
>> IO 470 engine so lots of amps required for start.
>>
>> Is there a recommended contactor placement/battery disconnect=C3=82 prot
ocol
>> out there?
>> I'm thinking safety in the event of an incident which might short out th
e
>> fat wire to the fuselage.
>>
>>
>> Battery contactor located as close as practical
>> to battery; starter contactor as close as practical
>> to starter. FAT wire connects battery contactor
>> to starter contactor and main bus feeder.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
>> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
>> out of that stuff?"
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "Contactor Questions" , battery in the trunk, |
now Ground power plug
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
standard Cessna power receptacle
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/extpowerrect.php
On 24.05.2021 23:59, John B wrote:
> Is this external power receptacle on a Western airplane? Or a Yak/CJ?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | How many connections are too many |
| From: | "AdventureD" <dobrien(at)microfoundations.com> |
I am reconfiguring some wiring to make it more user friendly next time I have to
dig into it, and a question arises about the trade off between ease of use and
connection quality. The main question is where to draw the line in the number
of connections allowed to make things easy.
For example, my bus (with breakers) on the back of the panel has all wires running
to wires to a canon plug to allow disconnecting the canon plug and pulling
out the breaker panel. The radio harness connects multiple avionics together
but also has power, ground, headset, and lighting wires going to other places.
Can I have additional connectors (e.g., Deutsch or canon connectors) making
those connections to the harness so that it is easy to pull the harness if I
have to? That would mean that each radio power wire has two connections beyond
the bus, one just away from the bus, and one nearer the radio (not to mentions
the connection to the bus and the dsub connected to the radio. Too many?
How many is too many?
Same question for grounding. My ground bus on the back of the firewall is in a
location that is hard to reach when the panel is installed. Could I have grounds
on the cockpit side of the firewall going through a canon plug to allow easy
removal of the panel without unplugging each and every ground faston? Too
many connections?
I realize there is a technical way to see how much you lose from each connection.
Are the rules of thumb on the number of connections for different types of
circuits that are consistent with accepted practice?
What is the best thing to read on this.
Thanks in advance.
Happy and safe flying,
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502047#502047
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How many connections are too many |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
You can have as many connections as you want. But keep in mind that the
vast majority of electrical problems are due to bad connections. Base your
decision on how often wires must be taken apart.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502048#502048
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How many connections are too many |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 5/24/2021 5:38 PM, AdventureD wrote:
>
> I am reconfiguring some wiring to make it more user friendly next time I have
to dig into it, and a question arises about the trade off between ease of use
and connection quality. The main question is where to draw the line in the number
of connections allowed to make things easy.
>
> For example, my bus (with breakers) on the back of the panel has all wires running
to wires to a canon plug to allow disconnecting the canon plug and pulling
out the breaker panel. The radio harness connects multiple avionics together
but also has power, ground, headset, and lighting wires going to other places.
Can I have additional connectors (e.g., Deutsch or canon connectors) making
those connections to the harness so that it is easy to pull the harness if
I have to? That would mean that each radio power wire has two connections beyond
the bus, one just away from the bus, and one nearer the radio (not to mentions
the connection to the bus and the dsub connected to the radio. Too many?
How many is too many?
>
> Same question for grounding. My ground bus on the back of the firewall is in
a location that is hard to reach when the panel is installed. Could I have grounds
on the cockpit side of the firewall going through a canon plug to allow
easy removal of the panel without unplugging each and every ground faston? Too
many connections?
>
> I realize there is a technical way to see how much you lose from each connection.
Are the rules of thumb on the number of connections for different types
of circuits that are consistent with accepted practice?
>
> What is the best thing to read on this.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Happy and safe flying,
> Dan
One option (easiest if you plan for it before executing the build) is to
put all the power handling switches/CBs on a panel that can stay with
the airframe when the panel comes out. Basically bundle all the wires
going to/from the switch or CB panel, and either bottom mount the panel
to the main panel or rear mount it in the main panel. To remove the main
panel, just remove the screws holding the power panel(s) and let them
'dangle' when you remove the main panel. If you need a pic, I'll try to
take one for you tomorrow.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | speaking of solenoids |
My neighbor sourced a starter solenoid online (I forget if it was ebay or
Amazon) and it worked for about 2 flights before going intermittent. When
he disassembled it, he saw this method of grounding the coil wire. I'm not
immune to using 'generic' parts, but this does show that it makes sense to
verify quality on parts with unknown pedigree.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How many connections are too many |
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
I stumbled into doing what Charlie recommends.
The instrument panel is a single piece with a 90 degree bend, the bend forming
a shelf on top of the leg holes. (What's the technical term for "leg holes"?)
4 AWG comes to the back of the passenger side of the instrument panel. The
ground, main distribution and a brown out buss are all there, mounted on the back
of the panel or top of the leg hole shelf. I also have a 12-conductor expansion
bus, currently empty but available for future use.
To get the panel out I detach the several busses and remove a dozen screws holding
panel to airplane structure. It takes about 10 minutes, but it's not complex.
(The passenger side of the busses is an ipad frame. If I had avionics spilling
over to the passenger side I would need a larger leg hole shelf.)
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502051#502051
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ip_busses_142.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "Contactor Questions" , battery in the trunk, |
now Ground power plug
At 04:59 PM 5/24/2021, you wrote:
>Is this external power receptacle on a Western airplane?=C2 Or a Yak/CJ?
There have been a number of connector styles adapted
to ground power service on aircraft. The military
was fond of the 3-pin configuration with wiring as
illustrated in View-A of:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z31K.pdf
The small pin is shorter than the other two
power conducting pins. This pin was used to control
a ground power contactor such that the contactor
would NOT close until the main power pins were engaged.
Conversely, upon disengagement the contactor WOULD
open before the main power pins broke contact.
This prevented arcing/burning of the power pins
should connect/disconnect operations be conducted
with a potential for high current flows.
View-B illustrates a more pedestrian approach
to ground power. This single pin connector was
common to terrestrial vehicles manufactured
by Cole-Hersee and perhaps others. I think
Piper was the first to offer this connector
on their product line.
Virtually every FBO ground power cart I've encountered
has two cart-to-aircraft cables: One with the mil-spec
3-terminal plug, a second with the Mack-truck style
plug.
I'm aware of a short-lived, single pin ground power
connector that Beech used for a time waaayyy back
when.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/AeroStart/
I think this ground power combo was offered on
some Beech models. A 'jumper cable' was supplied
with each airplane 'cause few if any FBOs had
mating plugs on their ground power carts.
The clips are kinda flimsy for engine cranking
currents. I suspect this cable's primary utility
was to charge the ship's battery from a nearby
vehicle whereupon the engine could be started
using internal battery power.
There may be others out there but the two
styles illustrated in Z31 are the most prevalent
in the wild.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: M43435/II/B Lacing tape |
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
The thread started with Bob N. identifying the lacing we should be using. Coincidentally
I had already purchased that EBay offering. This morning the seller
wrote
"Hi Preston, Thank you for contacting us. Yes we have about 65 spools more, how
many do you want to purchase? please let us know"
I don't want to be the go-between but if someone volunteers I'm guessing you can save a few dollars per spool. You can see the item in his EBay store by clicking through on https://www.ebay.com/str/mycyberoffice?_bkw=MilSpec+AA52081
Regards, PK
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502053#502053
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: speaking of solenoids |
That kind of thing makes me wonder if and how, cheap low-quality look-alik
es might infiltrate legitimate supply chains.=C2-=C2-
Makes me kinda nervous but also makes me feel a little better about spendin
g 2x or 3x as much for a "genuine Ford (or whatever manufacturer)" part.
Caveat Emptor and you get what you pay for (how do you say that in Latin?;)
-Jeff
gmail.com> wrote:
My neighbor sourced a starter solenoid online (I forget if it was ebay or
Amazon) and it worked for about 2 flights before going intermittent. When h
e disassembled it, he saw this method of grounding the coil wire. I'm not i
mmune to using 'generic' parts, but this does show that it makes sense to v
erify quality on parts with unknown pedigree.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: speaking of solenoids |
At 08:21 AM 5/25/2021, you wrote:
>My neighbor sourced a starter solenoid online (I forget if it was
>ebay or Amazon) and it worked for about 2 flights before going
>intermittent. When he disassembled it, he saw this method of
>grounding the coil wire. I'm not immune to using 'generic' parts,
>but this does show that it makes sense to verify quality on parts
>with unknown pedigree.
Yup . . .
There are many sources for form-fit-function
contactors that would appear to fill the need.
Fortunately, most are probably of good value
and will perform well. It is not DIFFICULT
to avoid pot-holes in design such as you've
discovered. But design isn't always the
problem.
Check out the illustrations at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/70%20Series%20Contactors/
In particular, this image at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/70%20Series%20Contactors/70%20Series%20Failure%20(circa%202000)/TearDown_10.jpg
This contactor failed for lack of due diligence
in assembly . . . which can happen to anybody.
All of the products illustrated in this series
of pictures were nominally well suited to task
by manufacturers with good track records.
For those interested in such things, here's the
after market electrical/ignition parts catalog
from Standard (caution . . . it's a big one ~190MB).
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Standard/Ignition%20and%20Electrical%20Illustrated%20Parts%20Guide.pdf
On page 1513 we find the SS-598 Starter 'Solenoid".
This device probably has the largest applications
list of all Standard contactors. I've been
citing this part (and it's close cousins) for
decades. As you can see from the catalog, Standard
is one of the 'big dogs' in the after market parts
business. If anyone has had both time and incentive
to get it right, Standard is a good place to start.
One thing I did notice while browsing the catalog is
no mention of diode suppression on the coil. I
used to sell a contactor with the necessary
diode and if memory serves, it was a Standard
part but 20+ years have stretched the gray matter
thin.
I'll check with B&C to see if they're selling
the diode suppressed product and identify
its pedigree.
If the device is not specifically marked
as 'diode suppressed', you can test it
(I'll need to do a video on how) or simply
add a diode for the heck of it. Two diodes
is not 'better' than one . . . but no diode
is not a good thing. Coil energy release
in starter contactors is particularly wicked.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: speaking of solenoids |
>
> I'll check with B&C to see if they're selling
> the diode suppressed product and identify
> its pedigree.
Dave at B&C assures me that their S702-1 DOES
include the coil suppression diode although it's
no longer cited on either the box -or- the part
itself.
My goof - their website DOES call out this
feature.
https://bandc.com/product/intermittent-duty-starter-contactor/
Electrical testing for existence of the
diode is not difficult . . . but it's something
that it would be nice not to worry about.
At the same time, lacking specific knowledge
of it's presence kinda encourages one to add
it to the outside . . . just-in-case. Also
a PITA.
I'll pray over this a bit.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1dw" <n1deltawhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
A little late getting this info (had said last Thursday but didn't go to the
airport until today), but here goes:
I have a SIRS floating magnetic compass mounted on top of my glareshield in
a Glastar. I also have a Dynon D10A which was removed from the panel a
couple years ago (and has been sitting in a cabinet at home since) and which
had no electrical connections to it for the following experiment. Aircraft
power was off. Both left and right sides of the D10A screen were placed in
proximity to the compass with the following results:
D10A right side: No effect at 4". Abt 1 deg at 2" and abt 2-3 deg in
contact with the compass.
D10A left side: No effect at 6", abt 1 deg at 4", abt 2 deg at 2" and 11
deg in contact with the compass. So the left side has more impact than the
right side.
The location of the D10A when installed in the aircraft was over 6" from the
compass, so I never noticed any impact from the installation arrangement.
Not sure what the meaning of the above is, but there is some magnetic affect
not associated with current passing through the D10A (and probably other
similar display devices). It is apparent also that separating a magnetic
compass from display screens of any sort, and steel aircraft frames, is
probably a prudent move.
Doug Windhorn
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display
At 02:28 PM 5/17/2021, you wrote:
>
Upon further investigation, I don't think my D-180 display is magnetized
after
all. I pulled the D-180 part way out of the instrument panel without
disconnecting any cables. Then I moved the compass around. The magnetic
interference seemed to be stronger under the instrument panel. Eventually I
determined that the control stick is magnetized and attracts the south end
of
the compass needle. As I moved the compass around the control stick, the
needle always pointed at the stick. Sorry about posting an incorrect data
point yesterday.
It is worth a try for Chris to try demagnetizing the steel locking rod with
a soldering gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2sFp5Blg_g
I received this note from John this morning:
================== received from John Torode 5/18/20 ===============
bob,
we have repeated the experiment with one of our d100s with the same result:
the magnetic fields emanating from the d100
cause significant compass errors. we believe this is from currents inside
the device, not from any material becoming magnetized.
in fact we would try not to include much ferrous material (d-subs i guess).
my electronic compass has a definite signature from the pulsating current in
the power leads to the strobe, which are some distance
away.
what is puzzling is his claim that it used to work fine. one idea is that
the power wire to the d100 has moved.
we have spoken with him before (i am disappointed that any query from a
customer goes unanswered), and have concluded that
the panel is a bad place for a compass because of the many currents around.
we do not think there is a reliable solution besides moving the compass to a
magnetically quiet place.
sorry,
john
==========================================================================
Compass interference issues can be difficult to track down.
When Beech began offering the B&C SD-20 variants on the
A36, we encountered a situation where turning the aux
alternator on/off caused an unacceptable swing in the
cowl mounted wet compass. We had to move it up onto the
windshield.
The distance moved was but a few inches but more toward
the fringes of the magnetic field emanating from the
rear of an energized alternator which was on the OTHER
side of the firewall!
Strength of magnetic forces vary with both
distance and position. The forces do not radiate
in uniformly dispersed spherical pattern. To make
matters more complex, they can be strongly
influenced by passive features located within
the field.
Steel tube airplanes were subject to magnetization
of structure . . . sometimes difficult to neutralize.
It was a rare instance that some interference
was mitigated by demagnetizing some rogue source
of magnetic force. The 'fix' nearly always called
for a design change.
We also know that the distance over which
a given field has influence has a profound
effect on strength.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: speaking of solenoids |
> If the device is not specifically marked
> as 'diode suppressed', you can test it
> (I'll need to do a video on how) or simply
> add a diode for the heck of it. Two diodes
> is not 'better' than one . . . but no diode
> is not a good thing. Coil energy release
> in starter contactors is particularly wicked.
I've got a idea for a stone-simple,
'catch diode sniffer' for contactors.
I need to proof it on the bench but I'm
pretty sure I can post a bill-of-materials
and schematic presently. Need to replace
shocks on the truck first.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
And now we have to worry about pilots being magnetized by Moderna and
Johnson & Johnson. It never ends.
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 8:05 PM n1dw wrote:
> A little late getting this info (had said last Thursday but didn=99
t go to
> the airport until today), but here goes:
>
>
> I have a SIRS floating magnetic compass mounted on top of my glareshield
> in a Glastar. I also have a Dynon D10A which was removed from the panel
a
> couple years ago (and has been sitting in a cabinet at home since) and
> which had no electrical connections to it for the following experiment.
> Aircraft power was off. Both left and right sides of the D10A screen wer
e
> placed in proximity to the compass with the following results:
>
>
> D10A right side: No effect at 4=9D. Abt 1 deg at 2=9D and a
bt 2-3 deg in
> contact with the compass.
>
> D10A left side: No effect at 6=9D, abt 1 deg at 4=9D, abt 2
deg at 2=9D and 11
> deg in contact with the compass. So the left side has more impact than t
he
> right side.
>
>
> The location of the D10A when installed in the aircraft was over 6
=9D from
> the compass, so I never noticed any impact from the installation
> arrangement.
>
>
> Not sure what the meaning of the above is, but there is some magnetic
> affect not associated with current passing through the D10A (and probably
> other similar display devices). It is apparent also that separating a
> magnetic compass from display screens of any sort, and steel aircraft
> frames, is probably a prudent move.
>
>
> Doug Windhorn
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 18, 2021 11:07 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display
>
>
> At 02:28 PM 5/17/2021, you wrote:
>
>
> Upon further investigation, I don't think my D-180 display is magnetized
> after
> all. I pulled the D-180 part way out of the instrument panel without
> disconnecting any cables. Then I moved the compass around. The magnetic
> interference seemed to be stronger under the instrument panel. Eventuall
y
> I
> determined that the control stick is magnetized and attracts the south en
d
> of
> the compass needle. As I moved the compass around the control stick, the
> needle always pointed at the stick. Sorry about posting an incorrect dat
a
> point yesterday.
> It is worth a try for Chris to try demagnetizing the steel locking rod
> with a soldering gun.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2sFp5Blg_g
>
>
> I received this note from John this morning:
>
> ================== received from John
Torode 5/18/20 ==============
> bob,
>
> we have repeated the experiment with one of our d100s with the same
> result: the magnetic fields emanating from the d100
> cause significant compass errors. we believe this is from currents insid
e
> the device, not from any material becoming magnetized.
> in fact we would try not to include much ferrous material (d-subs i guess
).
>
> my electronic compass has a definite signature from the pulsating current
> in the power leads to the strobe, which are some distance
> away.
>
> what is puzzling is his claim that it used to work fine. one idea is that
> the power wire to the d100 has moved.
>
> we have spoken with him before (i am disappointed that any query from a
> customer goes unanswered), and have concluded that
> the panel is a bad place for a compass because of the many currents aroun
d.
>
> we do not think there is a reliable solution besides moving the compass t
o
> a magnetically quiet place.
>
> sorry,
>
> john
>
> ========================
>
> Compass interference issues can be difficult to track down.
> When Beech began offering the B&C SD-20 variants on the
> A36, we encountered a situation where turning the aux
> alternator on/off caused an unacceptable swing in the
> cowl mounted wet compass. We had to move it up onto the
> windshield.
>
> The distance moved was but a few inches but more toward
> the fringes of the magnetic field emanating from the
> rear of an energized alternator which was on the OTHER
> side of the firewall!
>
> Strength of magnetic forces vary with both
> distance and position. The forces do not radiate
> in uniformly dispersed spherical pattern. To make
> matters more complex, they can be strongly
> influenced by passive features located within
> the field.
>
> Steel tube airplanes were subject to magnetization
> of structure . . . sometimes difficult to neutralize.
>
> It was a rare instance that some interference
> was mitigated by demagnetizing some rogue source
> of magnetic force. The 'fix' nearly always called
> for a design change.
>
> We also know that the distance over which
> a given field has influence has a profound
> effect on strength.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Video editing software |
| From: | "ArnoldWilder" <wilderarnold84(at)yahoo.com> |
I know it's been a while and you have recommended/shared here some really cool and uptodate softwares for editing videos, but I need some help. I had a nice pc with great graphic card, very powerful one, and unfortunately I needed to sell it. I bought a little laptop that is like a "toy", you cn do absolutely nothing with it. And I still need to edit videos that I film for my youtube channel. I can't use something like premiere pro or resolve on it, so I was thinking about an online video editor. Maybe fastreel.com (https://www.fastreel.com) will suit me. Has anyone tried it?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502062#502062
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Order essay online cheap |
| From: | "gojon1955bo" <gojon1955bo(at)gmail.com> |
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502063#502063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trent Heidtke" <theidtke(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Video editing software |
Have you tried Cyberlink Power Director for video editing? It uses less
resources than most that are decent editors. Biggest issue for substandard
processing computer will be rendering the final video. Just no substitute
for lots of processing power........unfortunately...... On-line processors
are good for SHORT videos but not much else.. Good luck in your quest.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of ArnoldWilder
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 6:48 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Video editing software
-->
I know it's been a while and you have recommended/shared here some really
cool and uptodate softwares for editing videos, but I need some help. I had
a nice pc with great graphic card, very powerful one, and unfortunately I
needed to sell it. I bought a little laptop that is like a "toy", you cn do
absolutely nothing with it. And I still need to edit videos that I film for
my youtube channel. I can't use something like premiere pro or resolve on
it, so I was thinking about an online video editor. Maybe fastreel.com
(https://www.fastreel.com) will suit me. Has anyone tried it?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502062#502062
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "Contactor Questions" , battery in the trunk, now |
Ground
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
Bob's write up made this a fun little project, now easily accessed while hidden
away under a rear seat.
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502101#502101
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/shore_power_926.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
Bob, a question about Z-14. I am considering this architecture for my S-21.
The starter/cross-feed switch is listed as S700-2-7, but the figure looks more
like a 2-5 and the function seems to make that switch the correct choice. I cant
see a reason why the non-starter cross-feed position would also be momentary.
Is this just a typo on the switch designation?
Regards,
Matt Whiting
Sent from my iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
At 05:06 PM 5/29/2021, you wrote:
>"Matthew S. Whiting"
>
>Bob, a question about Z-14. I am considering this architecture for my
S-21.
>
>The starter/cross-feed switch is listed as
>S700-2-7, but the figure looks more like a 2-5
>and the function seems to make that switch the
>correct choice. I can=99t see a reason why the
>non-starter cross-feed position would also be
>momentary. Is this just a typo on the switch designation?
Yes, be sure you're getting the latest revision
level of any Z-figure from the website. The
current revision for Z-14 dated 2013 is "P"
where the switch callout as indeed corrected to
S702-2-5.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
Hmmmm. I got it from the web site so I thought it was the latest. I got it
here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/AppZ_12A3.pdf
I just checked and this version is still incorrect. I am assuming there mus
t be another location or maybe you only update the CAD files and I don
=99t have a CAD program to read those so I usually look at the PDFs. I will
find a .DWG viewer and check the CAD version.
Thanks,
Matt
Sent from my iPad
> On May 29, 2021, at 11:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB At 05:06 PM 5/29/2021, you wrote:
frontier.com>
>>
>> Bob, a question about Z-14. I am considering this architecture for my S-
21.
>>
>> The starter/cross-feed switch is listed as S700-2-7, but the figure looks
more like a 2-5 and the function seems to make that switch the correct choi
ce. I can=99t see a reason why the non-starter cross-feed position wo
uld also be momentary. Is this just a typo on the switch designation?
>
> Yes, be sure you're getting the latest revision
> level of any Z-figure from the website. The
> current revision for Z-14 dated 2013 is "P"
> where the switch callout as indeed corrected to
> S702-2-5.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
==========================
==========================
==========================
-=========================
==========================
-=========================
==========================
==========================
====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 6:33 AM Matthew S. Whiting
wrote:
> Hmmmm. I got it from the web site so I thought it was the latest. I got
> it here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/AppZ_12A3.pdf
>
> I just checked and this version is still incorrect. I am assuming there
> must be another location or maybe you only update the CAD files and I don
=99t
> have a CAD program to read those so I usually look at the PDFs. I will
> find a .DWG viewer and check the CAD version.
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 29, 2021, at 11:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 05:06 PM 5/29/2021, you wrote:
>
> m.whiting(at)frontier.com>
>
> Bob, a question about Z-14. I am considering this architecture for my
> S-21.
>
> The starter/cross-feed switch is listed as S700-2-7, but the figure looks
> more like a 2-5 and the function seems to make that switch the correct
> choice. I can=99t see a reason why the non-starter cross-feed posi
tion would
> also be momentary. Is this just a typo on the switch designation?
>
>
> Yes, be sure you're getting the latest revision
> level of any Z-figure from the website. The
> current revision for Z-14 dated 2013 is "P"
> where the switch callout as indeed corrected to
> S702-2-5.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
> ========================
=========== =============
=====================
> ========================
=========== =============
=====================
> ========================
>
> --
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Voyager wrote:
> Hmmmm. I got it from the web site so I thought it was the latest...
I made a cheat sheet.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iR03DwNeHZy8hO7xBtALPb4_Tl0EY3OdZnAEIxpfMVY/edit?usp=sharing
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?usp=sharing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502114#502114
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
Thanks. I=99d been in this directory once before, but somehow found m
y way to the older one this last time.
Sent from my iPad
> On May 30, 2021, at 8:58 AM, David Carter wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
>
>
>> On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 6:33 AM Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>> Hmmmm. I got it from the web site so I thought it was the latest. I got
it here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/AppZ_12A3.pdf
>>
>> I just checked and this version is still incorrect. I am assuming there m
ust be another location or maybe you only update the CAD files and I don
=99t have a CAD program to read those so I usually look at the PDFs. I will
find a .DWG viewer and check the CAD version.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Matt
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>>> On May 29, 2021, at 11:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aer
oelectric.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>> At 05:06 PM 5/29/2021, you wrote:
g(at)frontier.com>
>>>>
>>>> Bob, a question about Z-14. I am considering this architecture for my S
-21.
>>>>
>>>> The starter/cross-feed switch is listed as S700-2-7, but the figure loo
ks more like a 2-5 and the function seems to make that switch the correct ch
oice. I can=99t see a reason why the non-starter cross-feed position w
ould also be momentary. Is this just a typo on the switch designation?
>>>
>>> Yes, be sure you're getting the latest revision
>>> level of any Z-figure from the website. The
>>> current revision for Z-14 dated 2013 is "P"
>>> where the switch callout as indeed corrected to
>>> S702-2-5.
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
>>> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
>>> out of that stuff?"
>>> ========== ========== ====
====== ========== =========
>>>
> --
> ---
> David Carter
> david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
At 07:30 AM 5/30/2021, you wrote:
>Hmmmm. I got it from the web site so I thought it was the
>latest. I got it here:
><http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/AppZ_12A3.pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/AppZ_12A3.pdf
This link is Rev 12 BOOK, not the page-per-system archives . . .
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
At 08:25 AM 5/30/2021, you wrote:
>Thanks. I=99d been in this directory once
>before, but somehow found my way to the older one this last time.
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>>On May 30, 2021, at 8:58 AM, David Carter wrote:
>>
>>=EF=BB
>><http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/>http://www.aeroe
lectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
These are the PPS archives where BOTH autocad
dwg and Acrobat pdf files are updated and
stored.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
Thanks, Bob!
Matt
Sent from my iPad
> On May 31, 2021, at 12:50 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB At 08:25 AM 5/30/2021, you wrote:
>> Thanks. I=99d been in this directory once before, but somehow foun
d my way to the older one this last time.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On May 30, 2021, at 8:58 AM, David Carter wrote:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB
>>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
>
> These are the PPS archives where BOTH autocad
> dwg and Acrobat pdf files are updated and
> stored.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Diode Failure Current vs Time Graph |
Hey BobN,
In your vast array of data & test results, do you have a current vs time gr
aph of a solenoid spike-suppression diode (1N5004?) short circuit?
I'm wondering what the peak current is before it is destroyed.
Somewhere I have an old PC based O-scope but I don't remember what its freq
uency range is (or even where it is), but how many samples per second would
be adequate to catch a failure like that.
I would use something like a 150A shunt (I think I have one lying around).
=C2- Do you think that would be adequate?=C2- Would a shunt like that r
emain linear at say 100% overload?=C2- Or, would we get even close to 300
amps?
Purely an academic exercise (electrical nerd inquiring mind(s) want to know
;)
-Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 question |
| From: | "PippaSutherland" <PippaSutherland7FpxL(at)yahoo.com> |
Good words indeed. If it were possible to make an airplane out of such material,
they would work on it.... I think so!
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502201#502201
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Diode Failure Current vs Time Graph |
At 11:35 AM 6/1/2021, you wrote:
>Hey BobN,
>
>In your vast array of data & test results, do you have a current
>vs time graph of a solenoid spike-suppression diode (1N5004?) short circuit?
>
>I'm wondering what the peak current is before it is destroyed.
Interesting question and one that can probably
be deduced by experiment. Setting up the experiment
would be tricky.
It's not so much a "peak current" as it is a "watt-seconds"
issue . . . very much time dependent.
To destroy a diode you need to either (1) MELT the
barrier-hill layer between the p/n elements. This
requires a watts/second injection of energy at some
rate that exceeds the devices ability to reject
the resulting generated heat. For our 1N400X series
friends, this could be something on the order of 5A
for Seconds . . . or 100A for milliseconds.
(2) you can punch out the barrier-hill layer with
reverse voltage that exceeds that layer's ability to
stand it off. Again, it's an energy rate function,
how much reverse current flows at the junction's
breakdown voltage (watts) for sufficient time
and rate to produce melting.
Most people don't know it but ordinary junction
diodes can be pressed into service as high voltage
zeners. I used to use them as 700VDC regulators
to bias up Geiger Muller tubes in radiation
detectors. I had to hand select diodes from a lot
to find the ones that offered 700V operation at
about 50 microamps . . . or about 35 milliwatts
dissipation. Well below the thermal threshold for
damage.
Getting back to your question:
Download this data sheet . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/1N4001.pdf
Here we see a forward surge current rating of 50A
with an interval of 1/2 of the 60H sine wave of
8.3 milliseconds. The data sheet says you can do
this one time (generally interpreted to mean very
low duty cycle). You could probably hit the device
with this pulse once every second for a duty cycle
of less than 1%.
On this same data sheet we see thermal ratings
citing 3W maximum dissipation. 175C maximum
junction temperature and 50C/W thermal resistance
to ambient.
50C/W X 3W is a 150C rise which is added to
25C ambient to get to the 175C max operating
temperature.
My hypothetical 5A 'overload' cited above would
probably produce a voltage drop of over 1V. That's
5 Watts dissipation for a potential 275C junction
temperature. Somewhere above 175C the junction
will fail after sufficient time to produce the rise.
The 30A rated surge pulse would obviously heat
it up much faster but the 8.3Ms limit would
be conservative.
These numbers suggest some parameters for setting
up your experiment. They also validate our selection
of the 1N400x series devices as contactor coil spike
catchers. A charged capacitor will deliver discharge
voltage at no higher value than the capacitor was
charged to. Similarly, an inductor delivers discharge
current at the same value to which it was chaged.
A 3A starter contactor coil would 'hammer' its
catch diode at 3A peak for no more than 5-10
Milliseconds. Well inside the surge current limits
suggested by the data sheet.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Cessna 180 electrical issues |
| From: | "l.p" <l.p.t21(at)btinternet.com> |
Dear Bob et al.
I'm forwarding a call for help I received from a very good friend.
Seems his electrics are playing up possibly as a result of and after
the installation of an ADS-B transponder and 8.33Mhz radio.
Main question I guess is why are these strange events happening at low
engine rpm?
Appreciate that in this scenario the alternator output is less but why
would that "pop" circuit breakers and turn a transponder "ON"?
Could it be grounding/earth issue?
Any ideas would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks.
Patrick Elliott, UK
"The electric gremlins in the Cessna are bizarre.
Twice now I=99ve had to land at night with no lights at all. Not eve
n
landing lights. (They have started popping their own circuit
breakers!). And, I like flying at night.
So, here=99s what I=99m going to have the mechanic try.
Take out the mode S transponder and run over it with the tractor.
Wire the 12v lighter plug, which is important to keep the iPad going,
to the old mode S transponder breaker.
Wire the navigation lights breaker directly to the main DC bus.
I have no idea what to do with the landing lights. Why would the
breaker pop on (engine) power reduction?
Why in the world would the xponder turn ON? Your thoughts."
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | A Beginner Is Simple to Manage |
| From: | "jogon2065jo" <jogon2065jo(at)gmail.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | A Beginner Is Simple to Manage When Falling For The |
Wrong Ma
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* Plagiarism free documents
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cessna 180 electrical issues |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Post a schematic diagram of the aircraft electrical system, especially loads that
draw 1 amp or more.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502275#502275
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | EGT issues hwo to troubleshoot best |
| From: | "werner schneider" <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Hi there, I changed a few years ago from a Rocky Mountain engine monitor with selector
switch to a Dynon EMS 10 engine monitor. The probes from the RM monitor
have long leads back into the cockpit and a braided steel cover around the wires.
The wires are crimped to D-sub pins and end in a DB25 plug. due the braided
steel covers all is a bit tight at the d-sub plug. I had an erratic CHT at
the begin but a reseat in the plug solved that mystery. But I had from the begin
EGT4 acting up below 200 deg F it has very little differences from the 3 others
(see pictures) but above the curve flatens significantly.
After all the years living with that error and trying with icebath, boiling water
etc to no avail I would like to dig a bit deeper.
Does anybody have a good plan how to tackle this as the error shows up only on
a running engine.
At 2 mins you see the runup, the departure is at about 9 minutes.
Many thanks for your ideas, due to the difficult access to the d-sup pins it is
pretty difficult to swap 2 probes in the plug.
Cheers Werner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502277#502277
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/egt_153.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/cht_737.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EGT issues hwo to troubleshoot best |
| From: | "cskelt" <cskelt(at)cantab.net> |
Werner,
It's not clear if you're using Dynon sensors although other brands should be compatible
if they're the same standard.
I has a similar problem with my EMS-D10 five years ago when I first started the
engine. This was already a few years since installation. The EGTs read accurate
ambient temperature but settled about 530 F during the runup. Unlike your
case I saw low temperature on all cylinders. After discussing with Dynon I
sent it back and it turned out to be an internal hardware problem that they fixed.
No problems during the subsequent 300 hours of operation. It's not troubleshooting,
but calling Dynon worked for me.
Regards,
Chris.
--------
Chris Skelt
Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502288#502288
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EGT issues hwo to troubleshoot best |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Thanks Chris.
No this are the sensors from my Rocky Mountain engine monitor, all the
rest is working fine just EGT4 is to low and the temperature is also all
the time fluctuating up and down where all the others are stable.
Cheers Werner
On 08.06.2021 14:16, cskelt wrote:
>
> Werner,
> It's not clear if you're using Dynon sensors although other brands should be
compatible if they're the same standard.
>
> I has a similar problem with my EMS-D10 five years ago when I first started the
engine. This was already a few years since installation. The EGTs read accurate
ambient temperature but settled about 530 F during the runup. Unlike your
case I saw low temperature on all cylinders. After discussing with Dynon
I sent it back and it turned out to be an internal hardware problem that they
fixed. No problems during the subsequent 300 hours of operation. It's not troubleshooting,
but calling Dynon worked for me.
>
> Regards,
> Chris.
>
> --------
> Chris Skelt
> Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502288#502288
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marianna133" <yqx9l(at)vmani.com> |
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deviating away from the expected direction.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502312#502312
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EGT issues hwo to troubleshoot best |
| From: | "cskelt" <cskelt(at)cantab.net> |
Werner,
Here's an example of an EGT probe failure. The duration of the flight is about
28 minutes.
The tip was badly eroded and the problem fixed by replacing the offending article.
Shortly afterwards two more failed so I replaced the remaining three and
it's all been good since. They lasted about 280 hours.
Other than the failure, all the EGT and CHT behavior correlates with manifold pressure,
mixture etc. and EGTs are more stable than yours. Note that after the
failure EGT 2 went back in line with the other probes when the power setting
was reduced for descent to destination.
Your EGT 4 has some of the characteristics of the others, although the response
is attenuated. I would argue that none of your EGTs are as stable as they should
be, and EGT 4 is uniquely pathological. Can you make a plot showing correspondence
between EGT and CHT, and add some engine parameters like manifold pressure,
fuel flow etc. as these should all tie together.
Regards,
Chris.
--------
Chris Skelt
Lancair 320 N1990L at KIWS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502314#502314
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/egt_probe_failure_727.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz |
| From: | "ArnoldWilder" <wilderarnold84(at)yahoo.com> |
Yep, interesting thread. I usually have the same issue while flying in the vicinity
of radio towers. At first, I was a little bit scared because of the noises,
but then I understood that it gives some kind of adrenaline.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502331#502331
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Locking 3P switch? |
Please see attached diagram. I'm looking for a better solution than what
I'm showing now for the "test/kill" connection on the SDS CPI-2 ECU. I
believe it would be better if this was on the same switch as the power to
the ECU & coil, so that the "test/kill" connection would be grounded any
time the ECU & coil power supplies are switched off. Grounding this
connection causes the ECU to stop firing the coils/plugs.
When power is removed from the ECU & coil primary supply connections, the
ECU remains on & automatically switches to the backup power supply. The
manufacturer's intent is that this is supplied by a dedicated battery with
an unswitched supply rather than the Z101 engine bus, but that's not
relevant to the question at hand.
Can anyone suggest a locking 3 pole switch similar to the Honeywell NT
series, or another creative way to achieve this with more common switches?
Thanks,
David
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Barter" <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> |
| Subject: | MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
Greetings,
I'm in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator, and am
wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads coming out
of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire control cable that
will be routed up to the cockpit. The company used to offer a small, round
pin connector for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be able to
disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if possible. Any
suggestions for a connector for fine wires like that appreciated.
Tom Barter
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)GMAIL.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
I used a molex but i suspect a dsub would have been better
Will
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 18:25 Tom Barter
wrote:
> Greetings,
>
>
> I=99m in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator,
and am
> wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads coming
> out of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire control cable
> that will be routed up to the cockpit. The company used to offer a small
,
> round pin connector for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be
> able to disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if
> possible. Any suggestions for a connector for fine wires like that
> appreciated.
>
>
> Tom Barter
>
>
> Virus-free
.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_-6897774303887738996_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
At 05:21 PM 6/11/2021, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>
>I'm in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator, and
>am wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads
>coming out of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire
>control cable that will be routed up to the cockpit. The company
>used to offer a small, round pin connector for that purpose, but not
>any more. Would like to be able to disconnect the actuator rather
>than cut solder joints, if possible. Any suggestions for a
>connector for fine wires like that appreciated.
>
>
Ditch the 26AWG 5wire extension and mate your
MAC actuator to a 22AWG 5-wire bundle of your
own making. Here's a suggested method that is
much easier to fabricate and decidedly more
robust as a finished installation:
https://tinyurl.com/cmq7epd
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
Machined subD pins should work fine; if needed strip twice as much and
double the wire before inserting in the pin. If you want them 'orderly',
use a 9 pin housing; otherwise just use heat shrink over each mated pair.
Wish I could claim the idea.. ;-)
Charlie
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 5:25 PM Tom Barter
wrote:
> Greetings,
>
>
> I=99m in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator,
and am
> wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads coming
> out of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire control cable
> that will be routed up to the cockpit. The company used to offer a small
,
> round pin connector for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be
> able to disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if
> possible. Any suggestions for a connector for fine wires like that
> appreciated.
>
>
> Tom Barter
>
>
> Virus-free
.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_1956570227212391193_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Garmin GTR 200 Help Needed |
| From: | "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com> |
I have a GTR 200 installed in a certificated airplane so Garmin tech support won't
help. I'm having an issue with the received volume on the initial response
to my transmission in that the volume is about 1/2 of normal, and it only is
in the left headset speaker. Either this has recently started or I haven't noticed
it before. The radio is stand alone, no audio panel is installed. Garmin
says take it to a dealer but there aren't any conveniently located. Any ideas?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502339#502339
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
I remember seeing this approach somewhere also, I want to say from Stein Bru
ch at Steinair. He simply used good quality pins and sockets and then mated
them and individually heat shrunk them as you describe. I think he may hav
e put a larger heat shrink sleeve over the entire bundle for an extra payer o
f protection and neatness. It looked like a neat and tidy solution. Certai
nly not as quick to disconnect as an actual connector, but then how often do
you remove the elevator or tail of your airplane?
I am considering this approach, but may also just use a 0.062 pitch mini mol
ex as they are fairly robust and small, but not weatherproof. A 5 pin Weath
erpack or Metripack is weatherproof, but much bulkier.
Matt
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 11, 2021, at 6:41 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Machined subD pins should work fine; if needed strip twice as much and dou
ble the wire before inserting in the pin. If you want them 'orderly', use a 9
pin housing; otherwise just use heat shrink over each mated pair.
>
> Wish I could claim the idea.. ;-)
>
> Charlie
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 5:25 PM Tom Barter wrote:
>> Greetings,
>>
>>
>>
>> I=99m in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator, a
nd am wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads comi
ng out of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire control cable
that will be routed up to the cockpit. The company used to offer a small, r
ound pin connector for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be abl
e to disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if possible. An
y suggestions for a connector for fine wires like that appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom Barter
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
The technique is detailed on the Aeroelectric Connection site; I think
Bob has a 'comic book' detailing it. But the technique is pretty much
everywhere in the wild now.
Charlie
On 6/11/2021 7:28 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
> I remember seeing this approach somewhere also, I want to say from
> Stein Bruch at Steinair. He simply used good quality pins and sockets
> and then mated them and individually heat shrunk them as you describe.
> I think he may have put a larger heat shrink sleeve over the entire
> bundle for an extra payer of protection and neatness. It looked like
> a neat and tidy solution. Certainly not as quick to disconnect as an
> actual connector, but then how often do you remove the elevator or
> tail of your airplane?
>
> I am considering this approach, but may also just use a 0.062 pitch
> mini molex as they are fairly robust and small, but not weatherproof.
> A 5 pin Weatherpack or Metripack is weatherproof, but much bulkier.
> Matt
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 11, 2021, at 6:41 PM, Charlie England
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Machined subD pins should work fine; if needed strip twice as much
>> and double the wire before inserting in the pin. If you want them
>> 'orderly', use a 9 pin housing; otherwise just use heat shrink over
>> each mated pair.
>>
>> Wish I could claim the idea.. ;-)
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 5:25 PM Tom Barter
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Im in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator,
>> and am wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26
>> gauge leads coming out of the actuator to the corresponding 26
>> gauge five wire control cable that will be routed up to the
>> cockpit. The company used to offer a small, round pin connector
>> for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be able to
>> disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if
>> possible. Any suggestions for a connector for fine wires like
>> that appreciated.
>>
>> Tom Barter
>>
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>> <#m_1956570227212391193_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
For those tiny wires I like to use crimp-type D-sub pins and sockets.
Stagger the joints and heat-shrink each one, then heat-shrink all five.
They don't need to be in a housing. It makes a fairly small and manageable
bulge. I think Bob has a write-up on this technique.
--Dave
On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM Tom Barter
wrote:
> Greetings,
>
>
> I=99m in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator,
and am
> wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads coming
> out of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire control cable
> that will be routed up to the cockpit. The company used to offer a small
,
> round pin connector for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be
> able to disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if
> possible. Any suggestions for a connector for fine wires like that
> appreciated.
>
>
> Tom Barter
>
>
> Virus-free
.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_-5396615780775197602_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
Transition away from 26 gauge as soon as possible and use a 9 pin D-sub as a
connector
Solder the 26g wires from the servo and then crimp 22g for the rest of the
run.
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Tom Barter
Sent: 11 June 2021 23:22
Subject: AeroElectric-List: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections
Greetings,
I'm in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator, and am
wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads coming out
of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire control cable that
will be routed up to the cockpit. The company used to offer a small, round
pin connector for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be able to
disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if possible. Any
suggestions for a connector for fine wires like that appreciated.
Tom Barter
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
At 11:04 PM 6/11/2021, you wrote:
>For those tiny wires I like to use crimp-type
>D-sub pins and sockets.=C2 Stagger the joints and
>heat-shrink each one, then heat-shrink all
>five.=C2 They don't need to be in a housing. It
>makes a fairly=C2 small and
>manageable=C2 bulge.=C2 I think Bob has a write-up on this technique.
The last frame of this comic-book describes
this technique:
https://tinyurl.com/c5v2xvm
. . . and yes, those 26AWG leads are of questionable
design integrity. I've spoken with Ray-Allen folks
at OSH about this numerous times 20+ years ago
only to be rebuffed. So be it. It's their product.
But anything less than 22AWG wire in the airframe
bundles only increases fabrication labor and risk,
it's not good practice in the GA industry.
Raytheon-Beech DID use quite a bit of 24AWG wire
in Model 390 airframe bundles. Assembly line folks
hated the stuff but it DID save some weight in a very
complex airplane (Premier). For our purposes
any benefits secured by the use of tiny wires
are washed out by degradation of robustness.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | "Contactor Questions" now CONTACTOR AUTOPSY |
So there I am rummaging thru 30 years worth of things I kept in case I need
them...hhhhmmmm
So a contactor ends up in my grubby paws, and I decide to strip it, 'cause
that's what BN would do! lol
It does not look great at first glance ( easily opened BTW by drilling out
the tiniest of rivets; something I suspect you will not be able to do with
a recently manufactured device).
[image: 1.PNG]
The upper part of the housing is surprisingly clean, and the pic makes the
contacts look worse than they are.
[image: 3.PNG]
Wear patterns on the contacts are clearly visible, but what I noticed is
that with the factory assembly process, the contacts are slightly off the
horizontal, so the plane of contact is not parallel with the contact
disc....accidental? I think not..when you tighten the outer nut the contact
turns until it hits the coil housing, unless you wedge something in there
to prevent turning.
[image: 4.PNG]
The contact disc is remarkably evenly worn on the other side (contact
side), as if the whole thing rotates in service..whoda thunk!!
It appears to be a starter contactor based on the 3 ohm coil.
This is the cleaned up contact disc, cleaned with a nylon brush and solvent
.
[image: image.png]
and I rotated the contacts
[image: image.png]
Being the miserly type, I might just be forced to press it into service if
it tests OK.
Best Regards,
Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
On Mon, 24 May 2021 at 19:02, Bob Verwey wrote:
> Thanks for the responses to my query....I now have the right solution.
> Any recommendations as to how to tie this receptacle into the schematic?
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> More specifically the polarity relay that is indicated.
>
> Best Regards,
> Bob Verwey
> 082 331 2727
>
>
> On Sun, 23 May 2021 at 19:20, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 11:57 PM 5/19/2021, you wrote:
>>
>> This is kinda related to contactors...
>>
>> On the BD4 that I am rebuilding, the battery is behind the baggage
>> compartment, with a really fat wire running up to the firewall.=C3=82
>>
>> IO 470 engine so lots of amps required for start.
>>
>> Is there a recommended contactor placement/battery disconnect=C3=82 prot
ocol
>> out there?
>> I'm thinking safety in the event of an incident which might short out th
e
>> fat wire to the fuselage.
>>
>>
>> Battery contactor located as close as practical
>> to battery; starter contactor as close as practical
>> to starter. FAT wire connects battery contactor
>> to starter contactor and main bus feeder.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
>> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
>> out of that stuff?"
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GTR 200 Help Needed |
| From: | "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com> |
Update-I used the headset and mike switch from the passenger side and all was normal.
However, I didn't not swap headsets and will try that next. Both headsets
are the same make and model, non-noise reducing style.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502352#502352
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SteinB <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
We=99ve been using that method for a long time, and in fact made a qu
ick
video of it (full credit to Bob Nuckolls)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8DCvBV2V4M
*From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *David Saylor
*Sent:* Friday, June 11, 2021 11:05 PM
*To:* aeroelectric-list
*Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections
For those tiny wires I like to use crimp-type D-sub pins and sockets.
Stagger the joints and heat-shrink each one, then heat-shrink all five.
They don't need to be in a housing. It makes a fairly small and manageable
bulge. I think Bob has a write-up on this technique.
--Dave
On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM Tom Barter
wrote:
Greetings,
I=99m in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator, an
d am
wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads coming
out of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire control cable
that will be routed up to the cockpit. The company used to offer a small,
round pin connector for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be
able to disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if
possible. Any suggestions for a connector for fine wires like that
appreciated.
Tom Barter
Virus-free. www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Locking 3P switch? |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi David,
here is a 3 way, lockable, double pole switch from APEM. I'm selling these, feel
free to send me a PM..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164244841780
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502360#502360
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "Contactor Questions" now CONTACTOR AUTOPSY |
At 11:19 AM 6/12/2021, you wrote:
>So there I am rummaging=C2 thru 30 years worth of
>things I kept in case I need them...hhhhmmmm
>So a contactor ends up in my grubby paws, and I
>decide to strip it, 'cause that's what BN would do! lol
Good work sir! Thank you for sharing.
>Wear patterns on the contacts are clearly
>visible, but what I noticed is that with the
>factory assembly process, the contacts are
>slightly off the horizontal, so the plane of
>contact is not parallel=C2 with the contact
>disc....accidental? I think not..when you
>tighten the outer nut the contact turns until it
>hits the coil housing, unless you wedge something in there to prevent
turning.
This is a fundamental weakness in contactors with
'double-nut' fat terminals as opposed to those
captive to molded, non-metalic housings.
It's a really good idea to put a wrench on the
inside nut and apply opposing torque while
tightening the outside nut.
I've encountered several contactor failures
where the fat terminals were twisted out of
alignment during installation. This is not
necessarily an automatic precursor to
failure . . . but it sure elevates risk.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Locking 3P switch? |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Re "N87BP_Engine_Bus_Detail.pdf" of 11 June 2021
I'm not seeing a failure mode that keeps the engine running if the SDS CPI-2 backup
power wires are connected to the engine bus.
There IS an SPOF in the form of the single connection to the engine bus. The Bussmann
15600 fuse block can be modified to add a 2nd stud... ref attached three
photos. The diode feed from the main bus goes to one stud and the relay feed
from the battery goes to the other stud.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?usp=sharing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502366#502366
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bussmann_15600_fuse_block_add_a_2nd_stud_photo_1_of_3_956.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bussmann_15600_fuse_block_add_a_2nd_stud_photo_2_of_3_949.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bussmann_15600_fuse_block_add_a_2nd_stud_photo_3_of_3_148.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
I use the method that Stein's video suggests. I do change one thing. I use
clear heat shrink tubing so it is possible to see where to cut the tube to
separate the pin/sockett connection.
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 9:35 AM SteinB wrote:
> We=99ve been using that method for a long time, and in fact made a
quick
> video of it (full credit to Bob Nuckolls)!
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8DCvBV2V4M
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *David Saylor
> *Sent:* Friday, June 11, 2021 11:05 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections
>
>
> For those tiny wires I like to use crimp-type D-sub pins and sockets.
> Stagger the joints and heat-shrink each one, then heat-shrink all five.
> They don't need to be in a housing. It makes a fairly small and manageabl
e
> bulge. I think Bob has a write-up on this technique.
>
>
> --Dave
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM Tom Barter
> wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
>
> I=99m in the process of installing an MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator,
and am
> wondering what the best way is to connect the five 26 gauge leads coming
> out of the actuator to the corresponding 26 gauge five wire control cable
> that will be routed up to the cockpit. The company used to offer a small
,
> round pin connector for that purpose, but not any more. Would like to be
> able to disconnect the actuator rather than cut solder joints, if
> possible. Any suggestions for a connector for fine wires like that
> appreciated.
>
>
> Tom Barter
>
>
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections |
I use clear heat shrink to alliw easy cutting at the joint between the pin
and socket
On Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 20:00 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:04 PM 6/11/2021, you wrote:
>
> For those tiny wires I like to use crimp-type D-sub pins and sockets.=C3
=82
> Stagger the joints and heat-shrink each one, then heat-shrink all five.
=C3=82
> They don't need to be in a housing. It makes a fairly=C3=82 small and
> manageable=C3=82 bulge.=C3=82 I think Bob has a write-up on this techni
que.
>
>
> The last frame of this comic-book describes
> this technique:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/c5v2xvm
>
> . . . and yes, those 26AWG leads are of questionable
> design integrity. I've spoken with Ray-Allen folks
> at OSH about this numerous times 20+ years ago
> only to be rebuffed. So be it. It's their product.
> But anything less than 22AWG wire in the airframe
> bundles only increases fabrication labor and risk,
> it's not good practice in the GA industry.
>
> Raytheon-Beech DID use quite a bit of 24AWG wire
> in Model 390 airframe bundles. Assembly line folks
> hated the stuff but it DID save some weight in a very
> complex airplane (Premier). For our purposes
> any benefits secured by the use of tiny wires
> are washed out by degradation of robustness.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
I have a somewhat academic question regarding design and operation of a dual alternator
system. Ive imagined, but never tested, that running two alternators
that are feeding a single battery bus would be dominated by current from one
of the alternators.
My reasoning is that regardless of how closely the charge systems are matched,
small variations would result in a slightly higher output voltage on one of them.
This would then result in an even lower output from the lower voltage output
charge system, which would reduce its current contribution.
If the above assumptions are accurate, how would it change if the two alternators
shared a single regulator? (Im not advocating this arrangement)
Would the result change If the two alternators were PMA units, mechanically tied
together and producing a sin wave in phase.
WRT the dual PMA arrangement, Bob had advocated a center tap to ground with a tie
point between the two PMA stators. This arrangement (I believe) separates
the current load exactly in half between the two sides.
One final question Ive wondered about. How do twin engine planes with two alternators
manage (my assumed) tendency for two alternators in parallel quickly relying
on the larger voltage out unit for most of the current?
Dan Theis.
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502409#502409
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Is there a switch configuration that will do this? |
I'd like to have a single switch control both my taxi lights & landing
lights. Sounds simple enough, right? Here's the catch. I want to control
the taxi lights directly from this switch by making a connection to +12v.
The landing lights, however, will be controlled through the Garmin GAD 27
electrical controller "magic box" so that it can provide airspeed-based
wig-wag. The GAD 27 light control switch input is active-low.
How I'd like it to work:
1. Switch down - both lights off
2. Middle position - +12v supplied to the taxi lights.
3. Top position - taxi lights no longer connected to +12v, GAD 27 light
switch input connected to ground.
I know I can do this with a relay, but I'd rather avoid adding an
additional failure point. It's not the end of the world if I use
separate switches for these functions, but I'd prefer they are combined on
one switch.
Thanks,
David
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
I've imagined, but never tested, that running two alternators that
are feeding a single battery bus would be dominated by current from
one of the alternators.
My reasoning is that regardless of how closely the charge systems
are matched, small variations would result in a slightly higher
output voltage on one of them. This would then result in an even
lower output from the lower voltage output charge system,
which would reduce its current contribution.
Yes, until system loads exceeded the capacity
of the alternator with the higher set-point. The
bus voltage sags allowing the lower set-point
alternator to wake up and begin to support the
load.
This is what happens with a B&C standby alternator
system. #2 alternator is set to some lower-than-nominal
regulation voltage. Should the #1 alternator quit,
voltage sags and #2 wakes up. Similarly, should the
#1 alternator suffer an open winding with subsequent
loss of capacity, the voltage might sag and again,
#2 steps in to take up the slack.
In both cases, #1 alternator is running maxed out
whether by reason of total system loads =or= loss
of capacity.
If the above assumptions are accurate, how would it change if
the two alternators shared a single regulator? (I=99m not advocating
this arrangement)
Cessna 336/337 Models do just that. Beech Barons too.
There is a switch for bringing a second regulator into
service should the first one fail. This philosophy
does produce a system whereby the two alternator
ammeters track each other fairly closely . . . in
my not so humble opinion, a totally misguided practice
to keep pilot's 'happy'.
There is no practical NEED for balancing the
loads on two alternators assuming (1) either
alternator can carry 100% of ships loads
with (2) demonstrated adequacy of cooling.
This shade-tree 'paralleling' scheme creates
single points of failure for both alternators.
How this got past in-house DERs is a mystery
to me . . . how the FAA bought it is a . . .
well . . . I won't go there.
Would the result change If the two alternators were PMA units,
mechanically tied together and producing a sin wave 'in-phase.'
The engines cannot be synchronized that tightly.
One final question I've wondered about. How do twin engine planes
with two alternators manage (my assumed) tendency for two alternators
in parallel quickly relying on the larger voltage out unit for most
of the current?
They parallel fields on a single regulator.
I designed a true paralleling regulator proposal for Cessna on
the 303 Crusader program thinking that there was a HUGH after market
opportunity to put the system on new and fielded Barons and Skymasters.
I don't know how the Cessna West was wiring their airplanes.
In any case, Cessna East didn't bite on the idea so I
was never funded to pursue the design. Twin Generators on
earlier Cessna and Beech models WERE fitted with paralleling
regulators which DID NOT compromise independence of the
two system. Turbine twins have always enjoyed that design
philosophy.
Here is a sketch on a generator paralleling system
on a Beech Model 18 I think . . . but typical of
all dual generator twins of the era.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Parallel_Aircraft_Generators.jpg
This design uses voltage drop in the generator's
compensation windings as a current shunt. Any difference
in those two voltages biases the voltage sense windings
to depress excitation to the generator with the higher
load while elevating excitation on the lighter loaded
machine . . . pretty slick.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do |
this?
At 11:28 AM 6/17/2021, you wrote:
>I'd like to have a single switch control both my
>taxi lights & landing lights. Sounds simple
>enough, right? Here's the catch. I want to
>control the taxi lights directly from this
>switch by making a connection to=C2 +12v. The
>landing lights, however, will be controlled
>through the Garmin GAD 27 electrical=C2 controller
>"magic box" so that it can provide
>airspeed-based wig-wag. The GAD 27 light control switch input is
active-low.=C2
>
>How I'd like it to work:
>1. Switch down - both lights off
>2. Middle position -=C2 +12v supplied to the taxi lights.=C2
>3. Top position - taxi lights no longer
>connected to=C2 +12v, GAD 27 light switch input connected to ground.=C2
>
>I know=C2 I can do this with a relay, but I'd
>rather=C2 avoid adding=C2 an additional=C2 failure
>point. It's not the end of the world if I use
>separate=C2 switches for these functions, but I'd
>prefer they are combined on one switch.=C2
There MIGHT be a simple way to do this but it
depends on the 'pull down' current of the electrical
controller. Is there a spec for that device that speaks
to parameters of this input?
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this? |
>> There MIGHT be a simple way to do this but it
>> depends on the 'pull down' current of the electrical
>> controller. Is there a spec for that device that speaks
>> to parameters of this input?
Here's what I was able to find in the installation manual: (top of page
26-8, or page 342 in Acrobat Reader)
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01115-01_an.pdf
These active-low discrete inputs conform to the following specification:
Low: Vin < 3.5 VDC, or Rin < 375 =CE=A9 (input active)
High: Vin > 8 VDC, or Rin> 100k =CE=A9 (input inactive)
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 5:37 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:28 AM 6/17/2021, you wrote:
>
> I'd like to have a single switch control both my taxi lights & landing
> lights. Sounds simple enough, right? Here's the catch. I want to control
> the taxi lights directly from this switch by making a connection to=C3=82
+12v.
> The landing lights, however, will be controlled through the Garmin GAD 27
> electrical=C3=82 controller "magic box" so that it can provide airspeed-b
ased
> wig-wag. The GAD 27 light control switch input is active-low.=C3=82
>
> How I'd like it to work:
> 1. Switch down - both lights off
> 2. Middle position -=C3=82 +12v supplied to the taxi lights.=C3=82
> 3. Top position - taxi lights no longer connected to=C3=82 +12v, GAD 27 l
ight
> switch input connected to ground.=C3=82
>
> I know=C3=82 I can do this with a relay, but I'd rather=C3=82 avoid addin
g=C3=82 an
> additional=C3=82 failure point. It's not the end of the world if I use se
parate=C3=82
> switches for these functions, but I'd prefer they are combined on one
> switch.=C3=82
>
>
> There MIGHT be a simple way to do this but it
> depends on the 'pull down' current of the electrical
> controller. Is there a spec for that device that speaks
> to parameters of this input?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
| From: | Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> |
Bob, in the Beech paralleling schematic below, what is the symbol in the
reg comprising the 6 parallel lines with the arrow through it, in series
with the shunt field?
Brian Phillips
On 18/06/2021 3:21 am, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I've imagined, but never tested, that running two alternators that
> are feeding a single battery bus would be dominated by current from
> one of the alternators.
>
> My reasoning is that regardless of how closely the charge systems
> are matched, small variations would result in a slightly higher
> output voltage on one of them. This would then result in an even
> lower output from the lower voltage output charge system,
> which would reduce its current contribution.
>
> Yes, until system loads exceeded the capacity
> of the alternator with the higher set-point. The
> bus voltage sags allowing the lower set-point
> alternator to wake up and begin to support the
> load.
>
> This is what happens with a B&C standby alternator
> system. #2 alternator is set to some lower-than-nominal
> regulation voltage. Should the #1 alternator quit,
> voltage sags and #2 wakes up. Similarly, should the
> #1 alternator suffer an open winding with subsequent
> loss of capacity, the voltage might sag and again,
> #2 steps in to take up the slack.
>
> In both cases, #1 alternator is running maxed out
> whether by reason of total system loads =or= loss
> of capacity.
>
> If the above assumptions are accurate, how would it change if
> the two alternators shared a single regulator? (Im not advocating
> this arrangement)
>
> Cessna 336/337 Models do just that. Beech Barons too.
> There is a switch for bringing a second regulator into
> service should the first one fail. This philosophy
> does produce a system whereby the two alternator
> ammeters track each other fairly closely . . . in
> my not so humble opinion, a totally misguided practice
> to keep pilot's 'happy'.
>
> There is no practical NEED for balancing the
> loads on two alternators assuming (1) either
> alternator can carry 100% of ships loads
> with (2) demonstrated adequacy of cooling.
>
> This shade-tree 'paralleling' scheme creates
> single points of failure for both alternators.
> How this got past in-house DERs is a mystery
> to me . . . how the FAA bought it is a . . .
> well . . . I won't go there.
>
> Would the result change If the two alternators were PMA units,
> mechanically tied together and producing a sin wave 'in-phase.'
>
> The engines cannot be synchronized that tightly.
>
> One final question I've wondered about. How do twin engine planes
> with two alternators manage (my assumed) tendency for two alternators
> in parallel quickly relying on the larger voltage out unit for most
> of the current?
>
> They parallel fields on a single regulator.
>
> I designed a true paralleling regulator proposal for Cessna on
> the 303 Crusader program thinking that there was a HUGH after market
> opportunity to put the system on new and fielded Barons and
> Skymasters.
> I don't know how the Cessna West was wiring their airplanes.
>
> In any case, Cessna East didn't bite on the idea so I
> was never funded to pursue the design. Twin Generators on
> earlier Cessna and Beech models WERE fitted with paralleling
> regulators which DID NOT compromise independence of the
> two system. Turbine twins have always enjoyed that design
> philosophy.
>
> Here is a sketch on a generator paralleling system
> on a Beech Model 18 I think . . . but typical of
> all dual generator twins of the era.
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Parallel_Aircraft_Generators.jpg
> <http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Parallel_Aircraft_Generators.jpg>
>
>
> This design uses voltage drop in the generator's
> compensation windings as a current shunt. Any difference
> in those two voltages biases the voltage sense windings
> to depress excitation to the generator with the higher
> load while elevating excitation on the lighter loaded
> machine . . . pretty slick.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
At 05:00 PM 6/17/2021, you wrote:
>Bob, in the Beech paralleling schematic below, what is the symbol in
>the reg comprising the 6 parallel lines with the arrow through it,
>in series with the shunt field?
>
>Brian Phillips
That is a carbon pile, variable resistor. Simply a stack
of carbon disks whose series resistance is a function
of compression force. A very common, high current analog
for a rheostat. Here's a carbon pile regulator in the
flesh . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Carbon_Pile_1a.jpg
No transistors, no modern plastics, no software.
One of many fine examples of engineering dexterity
on the part of those who did not have our box
of tinker-toys to work with.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gliderjohn(at)yahoo.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
Also helped a generation of pilots learn the habit of checking voltmeters i
n their pre-liftoff gauges check. You only need to smell batteries boiling
as you climb into a 200=99 overcast over one time to learn. On Th
ob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 05:00 PM 6/17/2021, you wrote:
Bob, in the Beech parallelingschematic below, what is the symbol in the reg
comprising the 6 parallellines with the arrow through it, in series with t
he shunt field?
Brian Phillips
=C2- That is a carbon pile, variable resistor. Simply a stack
=C2- of carbon disks whose series resistance is a function
=C2- of compression force. A very common, high current analog
=C2- for a rheostat. Here's a carbon pile regulator in the
=C2- flesh . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Carbon_Pile_1a.jpg
=C2- No transistors, no modern plastics, no software.
=C2- One of many fine examples of engineering dexterity
=C2- on the part of those who did not have our box
=C2- of tinker-toys to work with.
=C2- Bob . . .
=C2- Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If blackboxes
=C2- survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
=C2- out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
| From: | Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> |
On 18/06/2021 11:33 am, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 05:00 PM 6/17/2021, you wrote:
>> Bob, in the Beech paralleling schematic below, what is the symbol in
>> the reg comprising the 6 parallel lines with the arrow through it, in
>> series with the shunt field?
>>
>> Brian Phillips
>
> That is a carbon pile, variable resistor. Simply a stack
> of carbon disks whose series resistance is a function
> of compression force. A very common, high current analog
> for a rheostat. Here's a carbon pile regulator in the
> flesh . . .
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Carbon_Pile_1a.jpg
> <http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Carbon_Pile_1a.jpg>
>
> No transistors, no modern plastics, no software.
> One of many fine examples of engineering dexterity
> on the part of those who did not have our box
> of tinker-toys to work with.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
Thanks Bob, now that is amazing engineering, zero PN junctions, must be
near bulletproof.
Cheers,
Brian.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
You need a DP3T ON-ON-ON switch.
Mouser and Digikey and others sell them.
https://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Switches/Toggle-Switches/_/N-5g2jZ1yzvvqx?P=1z0z2o3Z1z0z28f
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/toggle-switches/201?s=N4IgjCBcpgzADFUBjKAzAhgGwM4FMAaEAeygG0RYAWeWAdgE4QBdIgBwBcoQBlDgJwCWAOwDmIAL5EATLACsSEKkiZchEuUoAOafABseluy6ReAkeKkgAtNMXKBAV3WlIFBcwlW7bkABEABVgAFRYJIA
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502430#502430
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will |
do this?
>> You need a DP3T ON-ON-ON switch.
Joe - thank you, it appears that would work electrically. It took me a few
minutes to decipher the actions of this switch, but I got there.
However, I have not yet found one in a form factor that would match the
rest of the standard toggles in my panel. I may have to just live with two
switches. It's not the end of the world, but it's not as elegant.
Thanks!
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
In Diamond twins one regulator is the master and has the job of
balancing the alternators.
I=99m not actually sure how it achieves that, but works well most
of the time.
The regulators are provided by the engine mfrs (Continental or Austro).
The G1000 instrumentation systems use hall effect sensors to detect the
output of each alternator.
The regulators use a different sensor to do their job.
Can result in the G1000 saying the loads are unbalanced, which makes
pilots unhappy =93 although voltage is always good.
I have spent a lot of time troubleshooting, reloading G1000 software and
other stuff to cure what seems to be an imaginary problem.
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 17 June 2021 18:21
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
I've imagined, but never tested, that running two alternators that
are feeding a single battery bus would be dominated by current from
one of the alternators.
My reasoning is that regardless of how closely the charge systems
are matched, small variations would result in a slightly higher
output voltage on one of them. This would then result in an even
lower output from the lower voltage output charge system,
which would reduce its current contribution.
Yes, until system loads exceeded the capacity
of the alternator with the higher set-point. The
bus voltage sags allowing the lower set-point
alternator to wake up and begin to support the
load.
This is what happens with a B&C standby alternator
system. #2 alternator is set to some lower-than-nominal
regulation voltage. Should the #1 alternator quit,
voltage sags and #2 wakes up. Similarly, should the
#1 alternator suffer an open winding with subsequent
loss of capacity, the voltage might sag and again,
#2 steps in to take up the slack.
In both cases, #1 alternator is running maxed out
whether by reason of total system loads =or= loss
of capacity.
If the above assumptions are accurate, how would it change if
the two alternators shared a single regulator?
(I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m not advocating
this arrangement)
Cessna 336/337 Models do just that. Beech Barons too.
There is a switch for bringing a second regulator into
service should the first one fail. This philosophy
does produce a system whereby the two alternator
ammeters track each other fairly closely . . . in
my not so humble opinion, a totally misguided practice
to keep pilot's 'happy'.
There is no practical NEED for balancing the
loads on two alternators assuming (1) either
alternator can carry 100% of ships loads
with (2) demonstrated adequacy of cooling.
This shade-tree 'paralleling' scheme creates
single points of failure for both alternators.
How this got past in-house DERs is a mystery
to me . . . how the FAA bought it is a . . .
well . . . I won't go there.
Would the result change If the two alternators were PMA units,
mechanically tied together and producing a sin wave 'in-phase.'
The engines cannot be synchronized that tightly.
One final question I've wondered about. How do twin engine planes
with two alternators manage (my assumed) tendency for two alternators
in parallel quickly relying on the larger voltage out unit for most
of the current?
They parallel fields on a single regulator.
I designed a true paralleling regulator proposal for Cessna on
the 303 Crusader program thinking that there was a HUGH after market
opportunity to put the system on new and fielded Barons and
Skymasters.
I don't know how the Cessna West was wiring their airplanes.
In any case, Cessna East didn't bite on the idea so I
was never funded to pursue the design. Twin Generators on
earlier Cessna and Beech models WERE fitted with paralleling
regulators which DID NOT compromise independence of the
two system. Turbine twins have always enjoyed that design
philosophy.
Here is a sketch on a generator paralleling system
on a Beech Model 18 I think . . . but typical of
all dual generator twins of the era.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Parallel_Aircraft_Generators.
jpg
This design uses voltage drop in the generator's
compensation windings as a current shunt. Any difference
in those two voltages biases the voltage sense windings
to depress excitation to the generator with the higher
load while elevating excitation on the lighter loaded
machine . . . pretty slick.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will |
do this?
>However, I have not yet found one in a form factor that would match
>the rest of the standard toggles in my panel.
What switches are you using?
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
>
>Thanks Bob, now that is amazing engineering, zero PN junctions, must
>be near bulletproof.
>Cheers,
>Brian.
Pretty close. If memory serves, some versions of
these regulators came with field remover/refurbish/
replace manuals. They're stone simple in their
physics of operation and very repairable as long
as they were not abused.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will |
do this?
>> What switches are you using?
It appears that Stein's crew is putting these in by default unless I ask
for something else.
https://www.steinair.com/product/toggle-switch-spst-onoff-fast-on-terminals/
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
I was under the impression that the Diamond twins either had Austro
(originally Thielert) diesel engines or Lycoming avgas engines. Where
did Continental come in?
On 6/18/2021 12:48 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> In Diamond twins one regulator is the master and has the job of
> balancing the alternators.
>
> Im not actually sure how it achieves that, but works well most of the time.
>
> The regulators are provided by the engine mfrs (Continental or Austro).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
At 02:48 PM 6/18/2021, you wrote:
>In Diamond twins one regulator is the master and
>has the job of balancing the alternators.
>
>I=99m not actually sure how it achieves that, but works well most of
the time.
Is there a .pdf of the alternator wiring you could
share? Sounds like an interesting system I'd like
to understand.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
| From: | "tiyaverma" <ms.tiyaverma(at)gmail.com> |
Extremely inspired! Everything is extremely open Chandigarh Escorts Service (http://www.rashmibhargav.in/) clear illumination of issues. It contains really certainties.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502444#502444
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
| From: | "tiyaverma" <ms.tiyaverma(at)gmail.com> |
Incredible articles and awesome design. Your forum post entry merits the greater part of the positive input Chandigarh Escorts (http://www.chandigarhescortsgirl.com/) it"s been getting. I want to steer about this, for the explanation that it's useful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502445#502445
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
The whole AMM is downloadable and is in ATA100 format.
DA42 with Continental engines
http://support.diamond-air.at/fileadmin/uploads/files/after_sales_support
/DA42_Twin_Star/Airplane_Maintenance_Manual/Basic_Manual/70201-DA42-AMM-r
4.pdf
See page 24-30-00 (pdf p 567) and on. Wiring diagrams Ch 92, p2077 & on
DA42 with Austro engines
http://support.diamond-air.at/fileadmin/uploads/files/after_sales_support
/DA42_New_Generation/Airplane_Maintenance_Manual/Basic_Manual/70215-DA42-
NG-AMM-r4.pdf
See page 613
DA62 (Austro)
http://support.diamond-air.at/fileadmin/uploads/files/after_sales_support
/DA62/Airplane_Maintenance_Manual/Basic_Manual/70225-r1-complete.pdf
pdf p 525
None of these is very specific. I will look in the engine manuals next
week.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 18 June 2021 21:28
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
At 02:48 PM 6/18/2021, you wrote:
In Diamond twins one regulator is the master and has the job of
balancing the alternators.
I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m not actually sure how it achieves that, but
works well most of the time.
Is there a .pdf of the alternator wiring you could
share? Sounds like an interesting system I'd like
to understand.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do |
this?
At 04:58 PM 6/17/2021, you wrote:
> >> There MIGHT be a simple way to do this but it
> >> =C2 depends on the 'pull down' current of the electrical
> >> =C2 controller. Is there a spec for that device that speaks
> >> =C2 to parameters of this input?
>
>Here's what I was able to find in the
>installation=C2 manual: (top of page 26-8, or page 342 in Acrobat Reader)
>
>https://static.garmin.
com/pumac/190-01115-01_an.pdf
>
>These active-low discrete inputs conform to the following specification:
>Low: Vin < 3.5 VDC, or Rin < 375 =CE=A9 (input active)
>High: Vin > 8 VDC, or Rin> 100k =CE=A9 (input inactive)
Aha! Exactly what was needed. The 3.5v or 375 Ohms
suggests that pull-down current at the switch point
is on the order of 0.01 amps (10 milliAmps).
The 375 Ohms number is handy, let's consider a
270 ohm, 2W resistor as an always-connected, pull-down
value on this input.
To deactivate that input we need to apply bus
voltage from the landing/taxi lights management
switch.
The switches you cited are the Carling line
of devices. A manufacturer favored by Cessna
since the 60s. The full range of functions is
offered by B&C at https://bandc.com
The one you want is the S700-2-10 which is
a progressive transfer, on-on-on function
illustrated by this schematic from the switches
chapter of the 'Connection.
This switch with addition of two
diodes and the resistor cited above can be configured
to accomplish the switching functions you requested.
See attached:
Lower position applies disable signal to
landing/wig-wag controller. Mid position
applies power to taxi lights while maintaining
the landing/wig-wag disable. Upper position
removes power from taxi lights -AND- landing/
wig-wag disable.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
At 07:05 AM 6/19/2021, you wrote:
>The whole AMM is downloadable and is in ATA100 format.
>
>
snip
>None of these is very specific. I will look in the engine manuals next week.
You got that right! It's been a long time since
I did an ATA100 manual. I was still at Electro-Mech
so this would have been about 1980. I got 'dinged'
for 'too complex', Symptom/Cause/Fix trouble shooting
charts. I can see that the authors of these manuals
were not at risk for similar debasement!
Found a schematic for the left alternator where
the regulator appears to be a paralleling regulator;
data from sensors on both alternators is supplied
to the regulator. Didn't find anything on how the
right alternator differed.
Man! That's a really 'busy' electrical system.
It would be interesting to see the wiring diagrams.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
I think the right side regulator is the same box but the current sensor is
driven from the LH box, will confirm on Monday.
Wiring diagrams are in Ch92 at the end of the book.
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 19 June 2021 18:02
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
At 07:05 AM 6/19/2021, you wrote:
The whole AMM is downloadable and is in ATA100 format.
snip
None of these is very specific. I will look in the engine manuals next week.
You got that right! It's been a long time since
I did an ATA100 manual. I was still at Electro-Mech
so this would have been about 1980. I got 'dinged'
for 'too complex', Symptom/Cause/Fix trouble shooting
charts. I can see that the authors of these manuals
were not at risk for similar debasement!
Found a schematic for the left alternator where
the regulator appears to be a paralleling regulator;
data from sensors on both alternators is supplied
to the regulator. Didn't find anything on how the
right alternator differed.
Man! That's a really 'busy' electrical system.
It would be interesting to see the wiring diagrams.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
>
> Man! That's a really 'busy' electrical system.
> It would be interesting to see the wiring diagrams.
Found them. It will take a bit to sift out
the features of interest . . .
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
At 03:38 PM 6/19/2021, you wrote:
>I think the right side regulator is the same box but the current
>sensor is driven from the LH box, will confirm on Monday.
>
>Wiring diagrams are in Ch92 at the end of the book.
Yup . . . found 'em. I think this paralleling system is
of the same genre' as that I proposed to Cessna for
the C303. Only one regulator is fitted with paralleling
smarts. The other is a plain vanilla stand-alone
device.
Stand alone regulator is set for 'nominal' bus
voltage, say 28.5V.
Second regulator watches current from each
alternator and adjusts its own output to
match it's partner with the stand-alone
system.
The paralleling circuit steering authority is limited
to about plus/minus 0.5V. Setup says adjust each
system independently for nominal set-point. Then
operate normally as a dual system.
Both systems retain their redundancy independence
with limited but adequate ability to run in
lockstep with each other.
I thought it would work pretty good . . . never
had a chance to explore it in working hardware.
Today we would enjoy the benefits of hall-effect
sensors for current monitoring . . . back then
I had to look at shunts with a rather energetic
hat-dance to resolve alternator current signals
from the bus common mode noise.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
Continental bought Thielert several yers ago
Neal George
On Jun 18, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
I was under the impression that the Diamond twins either had Austro (originally
Thielert) diesel engines or Lycoming avgas engines. Where did Continental come
in?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
OK, so it is just the original diesel engine, not a TCM gas engine.
On 6/20/2021 4:08 AM, Neal George wrote:
>
> Continental bought Thielert several yers ago
>
> Neal George
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
> I was under the impression that the Diamond twins either had Austro (originally
Thielert) diesel engines or Lycoming avgas engines. Where did Continental come
in?
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators |
Continental (Thielert/Technify) and Austro are different companies and make different
engines, although their main engines are both based on a Mercedes 2.0 litre.
Diamonds are now only available with Austro engines (except the DA50 which has
300hp Continental diesel), in the past they have been available with Continentals
and with Lycomings - may still be sold in US/Canada with Lycs.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: 20 June 2021 16:17
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
-->
OK, so it is just the original diesel engine, not a TCM gas engine.
On 6/20/2021 4:08 AM, Neal George wrote:
> -->
>
> Continental bought Thielert several yers ago
>
> Neal George
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> -->
>
> I was under the impression that the Diamond twins either had Austro (originally
Thielert) diesel engines or Lycoming avgas engines. Where did Continental come
in?
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do |
this?
> This switch with addition of two
> diodes and the resistor cited above can be configured
> to accomplish the switching functions you requested.
> See attached:
P.S. those 'loose' components present a small
packaging problem. I think I'd fabricate an
assembly-under-heat-shrink of the three compoents
with wires coming out each end.
Use 1/2" dual wall heat shrink . . . that's
how I packaged a few hundred crowbar ov management
modules.
Your finished assembly will be about 1-1/2 inches
long and 3/8" in diameter. It would tie nicely
into an adjacent wire bundle. I've got all the
materials in stock. I could build one up for you.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this? |
P.S. those 'loose' components present a small
packaging problem. I think I'd fabricate an
assembly-under-heat-shrink of the three compoents
with wires coming out each end.
Use 1/2" dual wall heat shrink . . . that's
how I packaged a few hundred crowbar ov management
modules.
Your finished assembly will be about 1-1/2 inches
long and 3/8" in diameter. It would tie nicely
into an adjacent wire bundle. I've got all the
materials in stock. I could build one up for you.
Bob - thanks for the solution design & for the packaging tip. I was also
wondering how much heat the resistor would need to dissipate in this
application? I'm guessing not much?
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 12:26 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> This switch with addition of two
> diodes and the resistor cited above can be configured
> to accomplish the switching functions you requested.
> See attached:
>
>
> P.S. those 'loose' components present a small
> packaging problem. I think I'd fabricate an
> assembly-under-heat-shrink of the three compoents
> with wires coming out each end.
>
> Use 1/2" dual wall heat shrink . . . that's
> how I packaged a few hundred crowbar ov management
> modules.
>
> Your finished assembly will be about 1-1/2 inches
> long and 3/8" in diameter. It would tie nicely
> into an adjacent wire bundle. I've got all the
> materials in stock. I could build one up for you.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Will this work?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502520#502520
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/taxi_lndg_lt_sw_107.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do |
this?
>Bob - thanks for the solution design & for the
>packaging tip. I was also wondering how much
>heat the resistor would need to dissipate in
>this application? I'm guessing not much?=C2
W = E^2/R = 14^2/270 = 0.725 Watts
For the 'shrink potted' assembly I would
probably use two 130 Ohm resistors
in series to spread out the heat generation
at 0.360 Watts each.
It will warm up noticeably but only slightly
so.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is there a switch configuration that will |
do this?
At 06:59 PM 6/21/2021, you wrote:
>
>Will this work?
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
>
>http://forums.matronics.com//files/taxi_lndg_lt_sw_107.jpg
>
Yes . . . that's the single pole switch version
of that which I illustrated on 6/19 using a 2-pole,
3-position, on-on-on switch.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Archer style wingtip antenna fabrication questions |
I have an Archer wingtip comm antenna I intend to install in one wingtip
(can always add a 1/4 wave whip if needed), and I'm thinking about building
the nav version detailed in Bob's 'Antennas & Feedlines chapter for the
other wingtip (figure 13-12 in my document).
How critical is the material for the .032" x .8" x 3.25" bakelite insulator
that forms what I'm guessing is a matching capacitor? Does the bakelite
participate in any way in operation, or is it simply a way to get a fixed
air gap?
Bakelite in that 'thinness' doesn't seem to be available without paying
more for shipping than the 3-postage-stamp size needed would cost. What
about substituting something like the thin HDPE cutting board stock,
available at discount stores? Two layers would be about .034" thick.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Archer style wingtip antenna fabrication questions |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Charlie, It looks like the critical dimension is the 0.31 air gap. My concern
is that a softer plastic will flow over time resulting in the screws loosening
up.
It looks like the angle part of the antenna is fastened to an aluminum wing rib.
The directions are not specific. A Bakelite sheet on eBay costs $5 including
shipping. Item #: 281793575532 from China. You might have to wait up to a
month for shipping. It is 1mm thick which converts to 0.039". I would not sand
it down. The Bakelite could possibly contain asbestos.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502533#502533
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Archer style wingtip antenna fabrication questions |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 6/22/2021 3:14 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Charlie, It looks like the critical dimension is the 0.31 air gap. My concern
is that a softer plastic will flow over time resulting in the screws loosening
up.
> It looks like the angle part of the antenna is fastened to an aluminum wing rib.
The directions are not specific. A Bakelite sheet on eBay costs $5 including
shipping. Item #: 281793575532 from China. You might have to wait up to
a month for shipping. It is 1mm thick which converts to 0.039". I would not
sand it down. The Bakelite could possibly contain asbestos.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
Your ebay-Foo is obviously better than mine; all the hits I got were for
much thicker stuff.
Thanks for the link!
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Archer style wingtip antenna fabrication questions |
At 12:03 PM 6/22/2021, you wrote:
>I have an Archer wingtip comm=C2 antenna I intend
>to install in one wingtip (can always add a 1/4
>wave whip if needed), and I'm thinking about
>building the nav version detailed in Bob's
>'Antennas & Feedlines chapter for the other
>wingtip (figure 13-12 in my document).
>
>How critical is the material for the .032" x .8"
>x 3.25" bakelite insulator that forms what I'm
>guessing is a matching capacitor? Does the
>bakelite participate in any way in operation, or
>is it simply a way to get a fixed air gap?
>
>Bakelite in that 'thinness' doesn't seem to be
>available without paying more for shipping than
>the 3-postage-stamp size needed would cost. What
>about=C2 substituting something like the thin HDPE
>cutting board stock, available at discount
>stores? Two layers would be about .034" thick.=C2
It IS critical . . . yes it forms the dielectric
for a capacitor used to series resonate the feeder
strut.
Bob must have conducted experiments to optimize
the characteristics of that capacitor with respect
to the matching strut for optimal mid-band impedance
match.
If it were my project, I'd use ANY available dielectric
material and conduct experiments over a ground plane
on the table to achieve (1) antenna resonance and
(2) best match to the feed line.
When I was a kid, a 'gamma match' was commonly
used to bring a feed line and antenna radiator
into functional harmony. The attached figure
illustrates an adjustable feeder strut paired
with a variable capacitor to feed a grounded
quarter-wave antenna.
My 10M, 2-element beam had such a feature that
was tuned with the aid of an SWR bridge. Today,
a vector network analyzer is the instrument
of choice and can cost less than a good SWR
meter.
After getting close on the bench, you can
confirm on the airplane to see if 'tweeking'
is called for. I've had readers assemble the
Archer wing tip antennas per drawings but found
it useful to trim dimensions per measured results.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Archer style wingtip antenna fabrication |
questions
At 04:01 PM 6/22/2021, you wrote:
>
>
>Your ebay-Foo is obviously better than mine; all the hits I got were
>for much thicker stuff.
>
>Thanks for the link!
I've got some fiber reinforced pvc
sheet that would be suitable for your
needs. Drop me a mailing address and
I'll send you some scraps to play with.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | EarthX on Firewall |
| From: | "Neal George" <neal(at)appaero.com.matronics.com> |
Bob -
For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
Neal
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502544#502544
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Archer style wingtip antenna fabrication questions |
On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 10:52 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:03 PM 6/22/2021, you wrote:
>
> I have an Archer wingtip comm=C3=82 antenna I intend to install in one w
ingtip
> (can always add a 1/4 wave whip if needed), and I'm thinking about buildi
ng
> the nav version detailed in Bob's 'Antennas & Feedlines chapter for the
> other wingtip (figure 13-12 in my document).
>
> How critical is the material for the .032" x .8" x 3.25" bakelite
> insulator that forms what I'm guessing is a matching capacitor? Does the
> bakelite participate in any way in operation, or is it simply a way to ge
t
> a fixed air gap?
>
> Bakelite in that 'thinness' doesn't seem to be available without paying
> more for shipping than the 3-postage-stamp size needed would cost. What
> about=C3=82 substituting something like the thin HDPE cutting board stock
,
> available at discount stores? Two layers would be about .034" thick.=C3
=82
>
>
> It IS critical . . . yes it forms the dielectric
> for a capacitor used to series resonate the feeder
> strut.
>
> Bob must have conducted experiments to optimize
> the characteristics of that capacitor with respect
> to the matching strut for optimal mid-band impedance
> match.
>
> If it were my project, I'd use ANY available dielectric
> material and conduct experiments over a ground plane
> on the table to achieve (1) antenna resonance and
> (2) best match to the feed line.
>
> When I was a kid, a 'gamma match' was commonly
> used to bring a feed line and antenna radiator
> into functional harmony. The attached figure
> illustrates an adjustable feeder strut paired
> with a variable capacitor to feed a grounded
> quarter-wave antenna.
>
> My 10M, 2-element beam had such a feature that
> was tuned with the aid of an SWR bridge. Today,
> a vector network analyzer is the instrument
> of choice and can cost less than a good SWR
> meter.
>
> After getting close on the bench, you can
> confirm on the airplane to see if 'tweeking'
> is called for. I've had readers assemble the
> Archer wing tip antennas per drawings but found
> it useful to trim dimensions per measured results.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
If any dielectric is worth a shot, I think I'll try my flexible cutting
board idea for a start. I've got a pack of them on the shelf, left over
from another project (bearing surface for the round top tube of an aluminum
hangar door). Package says 43% HDPE/57% EVA, and it's ~0.017" thick, so 2
layers will be pretty close in thickness, at least. How critical is tuning,
for a receive-only Nav antenna? I do have a NanoVNA; I just need to learn
how to use it. ;-)
Thanks for the offer on the dielectric, but let me give the cutting board a
shot first.
BTW, since this is a Nav antenna and can lie flat on the bottom of the
wingtip, I'm thinking I may try aluminum flashing (~0.008"), and slightly
'break' the edges to stiffen it. Any issues with that, if width/length
dimensions are maintained?
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
Neal,
Might be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations:
https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-compartment-battery-installations
Rob
On 6/23/2021 2:32 PM, Neal George wrote:
>
> Bob -
> For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
> Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
>
> Neal
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502544#502544
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
Huh?=C2- Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off for 3
0 min in a static situation.=C2- That makes sense, because the engine is
cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery from hi
tting that red line.
If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to 90 m
inutes of flight time.=C2- After that, you're killing your battery.
Are they seriously saying this?=C2- And what happens when you park after
a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
.nl> wrote:
Neal,
Might be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations:
https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-compartment-battery-installations
Rob
On 6/23/2021 2:32 PM, Neal George wrote:
matronics.com>
>
> Bob -
> For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
> Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
>
> Neal
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502544#502544
>
>
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
If it's any indication, I'm running an AeroAkku LFP450D (450A CCA, 7Ah)
next to my Jabiru 3300 shoe-horned in a small cowl. The battery is
mounted low on the firewall, so heat trapped under the cowl when parked
doesn't affect it as much as one mounted high up. But still, everything
hot is nearby. I do not have a heat shield or box
I've ran my first battery from 2013 to last year. Then replaced it for
peace of mind. Measured endurance and CCA of the 7+ battery, and it was
as good as new (440CCA, 7Ah). On my second battery, keeping the first
one around for experiments and helping out others with flat batteries
On 6/23/2021 6:00 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
>
> The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off
> for 30 min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the
> engine is cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the
> battery from hitting that red line.
>
> If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to
> 90 minutes of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
>
> Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park after
> a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Archer style wingtip antenna fabrication questions |
>
>If any dielectric is worth a shot, I think I'll try my flexible
>cutting board idea for a start. I've got a pack of them on the
>shelf, left over from another project (bearing surface for the round
>top tube of an aluminum hangar door). Package says 43% HDPE/57% EVA,
>and it's ~0.017" thick, so 2 layers will be pretty close in
>thickness, at least. How critical is tuning, for a receive-only Nav
>antenna? I do have a NanoVNA; I just need to learn how to use it. ;-)
The reason that any dielectric can be considered is
based on the physics of capacitors. The value of a
capacitor is proportional to area of the 'plates',
space between the plates, and dielectric constant
of the material.
Here's a comprehensive tutorial on the topic:
http://www.phys.uri.edu/gerhard/PHY204/slides8-phy204.pdf
In cases like this, one can estimate the value
of any particular capacitor fabrication with
the goal of duplicating Bob Archer's design
goals. It would be REALLY nice if we had
an Archer Original to measure the value of
his productions.
>Thanks for the offer on the dielectric, but let me give the cutting
>board a shot first.
No problem. I thought about the cutting sheets
too but wondered if their flexibility might
compromise the mechanical integrity of Bob's
original design goal. But we're in experimental
waters here.
>BTW, since this is a Nav antenna and can lie flat on the bottom of
>the wingtip,
>I'm thinking I may try aluminum flashing (~0.008"), and slightly 'break' the
>edges to stiffen it. Any issues with that, if width/length
>dimensions are maintained?
Skin effects for current flow due to operating
frequency tell us that thickness of a conductor
has no practical influence on performance. It's
surface area and then only to a depth of .001"
or so. The primary concern for materials selection
are conductivity (aluminum and copper are good)
and mechanical robustness suited to the environment.
Bob's antennas were no more 'robust' than needed to
avoid falling apart or breaking.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
Ernest -
That=99s the way I read it.
Doesn=99t address airflow under the cowl during flight, nor does
it speak to natural convective cooling after shutdown.
KitFox, on the other hand, recommends firewall-forward mounting in a
simple tray, no box
Neal
On Jun 23, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Ernest Christley
wrote:
Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off
for 30 min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the engine
is cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery
from hitting that red line.
If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to
90 minutes of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park after a
2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
wrote:
>
Neal,
Might be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations:
https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-compartment-battery-installations
Rob
On 6/23/2021 2:32 PM, Neal George wrote:
>
>
> Bob -
> For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
> Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the
firewall?
>
> Neal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
I had my first LiFePo strapped to the firewall with no protection.
Heat from the exhaust pipe destroyed it.=C2- You could see where it swell
ed up on the bottom just above the pipe.=C2- Built a heat shield shelf to
sit it on with some intervening insulation tape, and it is doing fine so f
ar.
Heat in the engine compartment is a lot like magnets in the cockpit.=C2-
Inches make a HUGE difference.
gmail.com> wrote:
Ernest -=C2-That=99s the way I read it.Doesn=99t address air
flow under the cowl during flight, nor does it speak to natural convective
cooling after shutdown.
KitFox, on the other hand, recommends firewall-forward mounting in a simple
tray, no box=C2-
Neal=C2-
On Jun 23, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:
Huh?=C2- Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off for 3
0 min in a static situation.=C2- That makes sense, because the engine is
cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery from hi
tting that red line.
If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to 90 m
inutes of flight time.=C2- After that, you're killing your battery.
Are they seriously saying this?=C2- And what happens when you park after
a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
.nl> wrote:
Neal,
Might be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations:
https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-compartment-battery-installations
Rob
On 6/23/2021 2:32 PM, Neal George wrote:
matronics.com>
>
> Bob -
> For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
> Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
>
> Neal
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Archer style wingtip antenna fabrication questions |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Ceengland wrote:
> ... I do have a NanoVNA; I just need to learn how to use it. ;-)
>
> Charlie
MegawattKS is a retired electrical engineering professor from Kansas State University
in Manhattan, KS. He has YouTube videos about the NanaVNA.
https://www.youtube.com/user/MegawattKS
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?usp=sharing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502559#502559
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
At 11:00 AM 6/23/2021, you wrote:
>Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
>
>The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat
>off for 30 min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the
>engine is cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep
>the battery from hitting that red line.
>
>If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited
>to 90 minutes of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
>
>Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park
>after a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
I think the experimental data explores a hypothetical
heat transfer from an exhaust pipe to the battery.
The environmental chamber is a constant source
of heating which does not exist under the cowl.
Exhaust plumbing is a source of RADIANT heat that's easy to
avoid. I don't recall any GA battery installation
on a firewall that was at-risk for radiant
heating.
Tests we conducted on firewall mounting locations
at Cessna waaayyy back when demonstrated that
the highest temperatures experienced on the
firewall were AFTER engine shutdown with the
aircraft sitting in a zero-wind condition. Even
then, transient temperatures were not real exciting . . .
about 160F as I recall for minutes.
Turbo engines were hotter after shutdown
due to larger mass of really warm metal positioned
in the lower regions of the cowl where convection flow
would take the BTUs upward. It was not uncommon
for pilot's to open the oil filler access
door to allow heat to escape while waiting
for the fuel truck to do it's thing.
For the vast majority of our projects, any
battery should live well sitting out in the
open on a firewall mounted battery tray.
It doesn't get all that hot there in
flight and only for short periods of time
in various non-flight conditions.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
At 11:49 AM 6/23/2021, you wrote:
>I had my first LiFePo strapped to the firewall with no protection.
>
>Heat from the exhaust pipe destroyed it. You could see where it
>swelled up on the bottom just above the pipe. Built a heat shield
>shelf to sit it on with some intervening insulation tape, and it is
>doing fine so far.
>
>Heat in the engine compartment is a lot like magnets in the
>cockpit. Inches make a HUGE difference.
Yes . . . if you put a hotdog on a spit over a fire,
it's reasonable to expect it to get toasted. This
builder might have avoided the experience by taking
advantage of the various forums available.
General aviation is over a century old . . . designers
have learned a great deal about what works . . . and
what doesn't . . . and why.
Heat shield? Yup . . . who wuda thunk it? When
in doubt, research the history.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Vector Network Analyzer |
>MegawattKS is a retired electrical engineering professor from Kansas
>State University in Manhattan, KS. He has YouTube videos about the NanaVNA.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/user/MegawattKS
haven't watched all of these but what I've
seen are well done!
A builder's first tool needs to be a multi-meter . . .
it may well be that the second needs to be a VNA.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
=C2-=C2- Heat shield? Yup . . . who wuda thunk it? When
=C2-=C2- in doubt, research the history.
=C2- Bob . . .
=C2- =C2-
When in doubt?=C2- The true enemy is lack of doubt.=C2- :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
>When in doubt? The true enemy is lack of doubt. :-)
Yeeaaahh . . . sort of . . . all successful
inventions have foundations in knowledge:
Properties of materials, management of energy and
refinement of process.
Any recipe for success features a useful
mix of those qualities that can be shared
with confidence of achieving the same results.
Hence I suggest that the greatest risk to
success arises out of ignorance. The
thinking craftsman should have doubts
when the task at hand is not paired with
a recipe for success.
This is why networking . . . whether
through formalized venues such as forums,
special interest groups, etc have become
the go-to sources for the evolution, proofing
and sharing of recipes.
The more knowledge is given away, the
greater its worth. The worth of an idea
never shared cannot be measured.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EarthX on Firewall |
| From: | Roger&Jean <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
Sent from: YOGA TABLET 10 HD+
On Jun 23, 2021 12:00 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
>
> Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
>
> The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off for 30
min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the engine is cooling down
during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery from hitting that red
line.
>
> If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to 90 minutes
of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
>
> Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park after a 2hr flight,
and the battery is already heat soaked?
>
>
>
> Neal,
>
> Might be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations:
> https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-compartment-battery-installations
>
> Rob
>
> On 6/23/2021 2:32 PM, Neal George wrote:
> >
> > Bob -
> > For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
> > Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
> >
> > Neal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502544#502544
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.matronics.================
> http://wiki.matronics.com<===================
> http://w=====
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group
I have a new, purchased long ago Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT.
I'm ready to install it in my Experimental Europa.
Is it still a valid ELT?
I believe there may be some ADs if installed on Certified Aircraft. Will it affect
me? What do I need to know? Should I replace it?
Thx.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502593#502593
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT? |
I'm not sure about US rules but in Canada these ELTs can still be used in
amateur-built aircraft if you can find fresh batteries for them and they
pass the yearly ELT check:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (eCFR)
If it passes the test, it's good for another year. The two I looked at in
the last few years did not pass the test.
On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 9:56 PM rparigoris wrote:
> rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
>
> Hi Group
>
> I have a new, purchased long ago Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT.
>
> I'm ready to install it in my Experimental Europa.
>
> Is it still a valid ELT?
>
> I believe there may be some ADs if installed on Certified Aircraft. Will
> it affect me? What do I need to know? Should I replace it?
>
> Thx.
> Ron P.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502593#502593
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT? |
| From: | "tiyaverma" <ms.tiyaverma(at)gmail.com> |
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502595#502595
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT? |
| From: | "tiyaverma" <ms.tiyaverma(at)gmail.com> |
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502596#502596
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Interav OV relay: how to do an integrity test. |
So I'm sitting with this interav OV regulator of unknown condition that I
want to test.
It has all white leads, but it's fairly easy to pick up what appears to be
the coil at 3 ohms and the contacts on the other two wires.
[image: image.png]
Now since I don't really know how these devices work, I'm looking for
advice on how to test effectively.
Do these devices work/not work, or is there more to it?
Best Regards,
Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
>
>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Interav OV relay: how to do an integrity test. |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Are the wires shorted together that you suspect are the contacts?
If not, maybe the 3 ohms are the contact wires. 3 ohms could be from corroded
contacts.
3 ohms is too low for a coil. It would draw almost 5 amps and get very hot, 70
watts of heat.
Assuming the contacts are normally closed, then:
If one pair of wires is open, it means that either the contacts are not making
contact or the coil is open.
In either case, the relay is defective.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502620#502620
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT? |
The FAA pulled Ameri-King's production authorisation a few years ago because
of quality concerns so no more batteries.
Is your battery still in date?
The AD in question is AD 2017-16-01.
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/AOCADSearch/5BA
F0370C7871DEB862581A0004AFD68?OpenDocument.
I guess the question is are you required by operational regulations to carry
an ELT?
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of rparigoris
Sent: 25 June 2021 05:52
Subject: ****SPAM**** AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT?
-->
Hi Group
I have a new, purchased long ago Ameri-King AK-451 AF ELT.
I'm ready to install it in my Experimental Europa.
Is it still a valid ELT?
I believe there may be some ADs if installed on Certified Aircraft. Will it
affect me? What do I need to know? Should I replace it?
Thx.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502593#502593
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interav OV relay: how to do an integrity |
test.
At 02:50 PM 6/27/2021, you wrote:
>
>Are the wires shorted together that you suspect are the contacts?
>If not, maybe the 3 ohms are the contact wires. 3 ohms could be
>from corroded contacts.
>3 ohms is too low for a coil. It would draw almost 5 amps and get
>very hot, 70 watts of heat.
>Assuming the contacts are normally closed, then:
>If one pair of wires is open, it means that either the contacts are
>not making contact or the coil is open.
>In either case, the relay is defective.
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
Joe's observations are spot on.
The OV management product you're evaluating has a history that
dates back 50 or so years. I'm aware of at least two
OV management devices based on relays. One such product
launched my aviation engineering career in 1972. My first
task at Electro-Mech was to design a replacement for this
device:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/RBM138-1_A.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/RBM138-1_B.jpg
In the second image, we see two relays. A normally
closed device with rather hefty contacts incorporated
to disconnect field excitation on the runaway alternator.
The second relay is interesting. It's a reed relay
wrapped in mu-metal to ward off effects of external
magnetic fields. There is a capacitor across the
reed relay coil for what I assume is intended to
offer some time delay for energizing the relay.
There's a resistor/thermistor network in series with
the relay's coil which is also in series with a
voltage calibration potentiometer.
With set-point calibration voltage applied, the
potentiometer is adjusted until the sensing relay
just trips thereby energizing the field disconnect
relay.
The resistor/thermistor network provides temperature
compensation for the rather strong, positive resistance vs.
temperature coefficient of the sense relay's copper
coil.
Using relays offers a latching feature in that
the drop-out voltage of the sense relay is a small
fraction of the pull-in voltage. Hence, if the
sense relay closes at 16.0 volts, it probably won't
release until the voltage drops below 4-6 volts.
This means that the ship's battery voltage will keep
the relay closed until the alternator field supply
switch is opened.
I've not had occasion to inspect an InterAv-Alcor
OV relay. Here's what I have in the library with
respect to this OV management device and it's
ancillary system components:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/Interav/
Two versions of the OV relay are illustrated: one
with all white wire and a second with colored wires.
As Joe has noted, you should measure a very low resistance
between two of the four wires connected to the
normally closed contacts of an excitation disconnect
relay. The other wires should have a rather high
resistance . . . probably on the order of several
hundred ohms. This would represent connections to
the sense coil.
We don't know if this product has two relays. In
theory, the whole thing can be implemented with one
relay.
The design we ultimately offered Cessna had a field
disconnect relay driven by an SCR which latches
in an on-state after trip. The SCR was triggered
through a resistor, capacitor, and zener diode network
tailored to optimize temperature stability of the
setpoint.
Check the resistances between wire again. If you
don't see obvious 'coil' and 'contact' values then
Joe's hypothesis of relay failure is correct.
If you DO see appropriate resistances between the
wire pairs, then attach a variable power supply
to the HIGHER resistance pair and bring voltage
up slowly until you hear a 'click'. This should
occur between 15.5 and 16.5 volts according to
the OV Relay's placarded performance numbers.
You could also wire a tail-light bulb in series
with the other pair to the test power supply.
The bulb should be illuminated until the 'click'
is heard.
Is this a 'potted' assembly? If you look at the
under side, do you see a metal close-out or is it
filled with pour-in plastic?
If it is failed and not potted, I'd like to have
the carcass. It would be interesting to see how the
'other' competition in 1972 was doing things. I will
publish a Shop Notes on the teardown inspection.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | An interesting anecdote on the RBM OV relay |
Hadn't thought about this for quite a few years
but the RMB Controls 138-1 relay in the picture was
acquired at OSH 1990 or thereabouts.
A young man showed up at the B&C booth to talk
about regulators. Seems he was having trouble with
the rear regulator on his recently 'finished'
Rutan design Defiant. I remember being amazed that
someone so young had the resources, time and
talent to have completed such a project!
His complaint was that the rear engine's alternator
would not stay on line. When the field switch was
closed, it would come on for a brief time and then
shut down.
I wasn't able to leave the booth but suggested
that he bring the offending regulator in and we
could hook it up to a power supply and evaluated
it.
An hour or so later he was back and plunked down
an RBM Controls 138-1 OV Management relay! Yes,
it had all the markings of a regulator (BUS, FLD,
GND). He had purchased it from an aviation salvage
yard and assumed it was a regulator based on
the terminal labels.
Fortunately the thing was still functional. As soon
as the alternator came up, it would go into over
voltage causing the 138-1 to trip. I explained
his mistake whereupon he whipped out his credit
card and bought at least one and perhaps two
LR2 regulators. I asked him if I could have
his 'non-regulator' and he gifted it to me. I think
I've still got it laying around here somewhere.
I also learned that his airplane was flown NY to
OSH with only one functioning alternator and
too few hours on it to qualify for anything
but test-area-flight! At least he went home
with two alternators and a fist-full of
flight hours in the log.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Ford" <psychden(at)sonic.net> |
| Subject: | Wig wag switching |
I am replacing the 12v incandescent wing recognition lights (2) and nose
landing light with a Flyleds array in the nose rated at 10 amps and the two
wing lights at 2 amps. I would like to maintain the two panel mounted SPST
switches from the previous installation but to operate the wigwag circuit
and switch all three to constant "on", one of the switches has to be a DPDT.
Theoretically, I could power a DPDT relay from the SPST switch but searching
Mouser and Digikey I am finding a dearth of possible candidates. Another
option would be to use two SPST relays of which there are plenty and operate
them both simultaneously via the panel switch. I would appreciate advice on
the variables for the contact materials, coil resistance, etc. for this
application.
Larry
Glasair I RG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interav OV relay: how to do an integrity test. |
Hi Bob,
Indeed, a potted version of the device so no salvageable knowledge there!
Appreciate the feedback; this is one for the bin!
Best Regards,
Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wig wag switching |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
If two SPST relays will work, then why not one DPST relay?
Mouser #:769-ACTL3CR3V
Silver Alloy contacts are good for power applications.
Gold contacts are for small signals, not power.
Coil resistance should be greater than 100 ohms. Otherwise the relay will get
too hot.
Here is a DPDT from Digikey. Part number: A102CS12VDC
Looks like both relays above have pins that require soldering.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502658#502658
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bill(at)howerton.com |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/15/21 |
Check out my presentation
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhYZCTh8gqcnatdQEjkoOQwE164?e=pQGcQq
Password for archive: 666777
*
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
>Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
>HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 21-06-15&Archive=AeroElectric
>
>Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 21-06-15&Archive=AeroElectric
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 06/15/21: 1
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Today's Message Index:
>----------------------
>
> 1. 08:42 AM - Re: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections (don van santen)
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MAC/Ray Allen trim actuator connections
>
>I use clear heat shrink to alliw easy cutting at the joint between the pin
>and socket
>
>On Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 20:00 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 11:04 PM 6/11/2021, you wrote:
>>
>> For those tiny wires I like to use crimp-type D-sub pins and sockets.=C3
>=82
>> Stagger the joints and heat-shrink each one, then heat-shrink all five.
>=C3=82
>> They don't need to be in a housing. It makes a fairly=C3=82 small and
>> manageable=C3=82 bulge.=C3=82 I think Bob has a write-up on this techni
>que.
>>
>>
>> The last frame of this comic-book describes
>> this technique:
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/c5v2xvm
>>
>> . . . and yes, those 26AWG leads are of questionable
>> design integrity. I've spoken with Ray-Allen folks
>> at OSH about this numerous times 20+ years ago
>> only to be rebuffed. So be it. It's their product.
>> But anything less than 22AWG wire in the airframe
>> bundles only increases fabrication labor and risk,
>> it's not good practice in the GA industry.
>>
>> Raytheon-Beech DID use quite a bit of 24AWG wire
>> in Model 390 airframe bundles. Assembly line folks
>> hated the stuff but it DID save some weight in a very
>> complex airplane (Premier). For our purposes
>> any benefits secured by the use of tiny wires
>> are washed out by degradation of robustness.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
>> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
>> out of that stuff?"
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/15/21 |
At 07:23 AM 6/30/2021, you wrote:
>
>Check out my presentation
>https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhYZCTh8gqcnatdQEjkoOQwE164?e=pQGcQq
>Password for archive: 666777
>
>*
****** CAUTION ******
bill(at)howerton.com IS NOT a subscriber to any
Matronics forums. This link is HIGHLY SUSPECT.
DO NOT exercise it!
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig wag switching |
At 12:12 PM 6/29/2021, you wrote:
>I am replacing the 12v incandescent wing recognition lights (2) and
>nose landing light with a Flyleds array in the nose rated at 10 amps
>and the two wing lights at 2 amps. I would like to maintain the two
>panel mounted SPST switches from the previous installation but to
>operate the wigwag circuit and switch all three to constant "on",
>one of the switches has to be a DPDT. Theoretically, I could power a
>DPDT relay from the SPST switch but searching Mouser and Digikey I
>am finding a dearth of possible candidates. Another option would be
>to use two SPST relays of which there are plenty and operate them
>both simultaneously via the panel switch. I would appreciate advice
>on the variables for the contact materials, coil resistance, etc.
>for this application.
>Larry
>Glasair I RG
>
It would be helpful if you could post a schematic
of your proposed wiring. Verbal descriptions of
schematics are often mis-interpreted leading
to the wrong advice.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/15/21 |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
BillHowerton was a valid Matronics user back in 2006.
Evidently someone cracked his password for Matronics and is posting spam.
The file, that the spammer provided a link to, is a vbs file which is an ideal
format for hiding viruses or other malware.
Do NOT download it.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502666#502666
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 06/15/21 |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
BillHowerton was a valid Matronics user back in 2006.
Evidently someone cracked his password for Matronics and is posting spam.
The file, that the spammer provided a link to, is a vbs file which is an ideal
format for hiding viruses or other malware.
Do NOT download it.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502667#502667
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | For Sale New Apple iPhone 12 5G 64/128/256GB $629 |
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
Prices Are Canadian dollars. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502672#502672
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | For Sale New Apple iPhone 12 5G 128GB Original Unlocked |
$729
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502676#502676
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | For Sale New Apple iPhone 12 5G 256GB Original Unlocked |
$829
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502679#502679
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bill(at)howerton.com |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 06/18/21 |
Check out my presentation
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AreStIOQRXvbbS5ZMN0VLbD3CYY?e=dQdIAf
Password for archive: 8888
*
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
>Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
>HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 21-06-18&Archive=AeroElectric
>
>Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 21-06-18&Archive=AeroElectric
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Fri 06/18/21: 10
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Today's Message Index:
>----------------------
>
> 1. 09:54 AM - Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this? (user9253)
> 2. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this?
(David Carter)
> 3. 12:49 PM - Re: Dual alternators (Peter Pengilly)
> 4. 01:15 PM - Re: Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this?
(Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
> 5. 01:27 PM - Re: Dual alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
> 6. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this?
(David Carter)
> 7. 02:12 PM - Re: Dual alternators (Kelly McMullen)
> 8. 09:34 PM - Re: Dual alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
> 9. 11:07 PM - Re: Dual alternators (tiyaverma)
> 10. 11:10 PM - Re: Dual alternators (tiyaverma)
>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Is there a switch configuration that will do this?
>From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
>
>
>You need a DP3T ON-ON-ON switch.
>Mouser and Digikey and others sell them.
>https://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Switches/Toggle-Switches/_/N-5g2jZ1yzvvqx?P=1z0z2o3Z1z0z28f
>https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/toggle-switches/201?s=N4IgjCBcpgzADFUBjKAzAhgGwM4FMAaEAeygG0RYAWeWAdgE4QBdIgBwBcoQBlDgJwCWAOwDmIAL5EATLACsSEKkiZchEuUoAOafABseluy6ReAkeKkgAtNMXKBAV3WlIFBcwlW7bkABEABVgAFRYJIA
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502430#502430
>
>
>________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: David Carter <david(at)carter.net>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Is there a switch configuration that will
>do this?
>
>>> You need a DP3T ON-ON-ON switch.
>
>Joe - thank you, it appears that would work electrically. It took me a few
>minutes to decipher the actions of this switch, but I got there.
>
>However, I have not yet found one in a form factor that would match the
>rest of the standard toggles in my panel. I may have to just live with two
>switches. It's not the end of the world, but it's not as elegant.
>
>Thanks!
>
>---
>David Carter
>david(at)carter.net
>
>________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com>
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
>
>In Diamond twins one regulator is the master and has the job of
>balancing the alternators.
>
>I=99m not actually sure how it achieves that, but works well most
>of the time.
>
>The regulators are provided by the engine mfrs (Continental or Austro).
>
>The G1000 instrumentation systems use hall effect sensors to detect the
>output of each alternator.
>
>The regulators use a different sensor to do their job.
>
>Can result in the G1000 saying the loads are unbalanced, which makes
>pilots unhappy =93 although voltage is always good.
>
>I have spent a lot of time troubleshooting, reloading G1000 software and
>other stuff to cure what seems to be an imaginary problem.
>
>Peter
>
>
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> On Behalf Of Robert L.
>Nuckolls, III
>Sent: 17 June 2021 18:21
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
>
>
> I've imagined, but never tested, that running two alternators that
> are feeding a single battery bus would be dominated by current from
> one of the alternators.
>
> My reasoning is that regardless of how closely the charge systems
> are matched, small variations would result in a slightly higher
> output voltage on one of them. This would then result in an even
> lower output from the lower voltage output charge system,
> which would reduce its current contribution.
>
> Yes, until system loads exceeded the capacity
> of the alternator with the higher set-point. The
> bus voltage sags allowing the lower set-point
> alternator to wake up and begin to support the
> load.
>
> This is what happens with a B&C standby alternator
> system. #2 alternator is set to some lower-than-nominal
> regulation voltage. Should the #1 alternator quit,
> voltage sags and #2 wakes up. Similarly, should the
> #1 alternator suffer an open winding with subsequent
> loss of capacity, the voltage might sag and again,
> #2 steps in to take up the slack.
>
> In both cases, #1 alternator is running maxed out
> whether by reason of total system loads =or= loss
> of capacity.
>
>If the above assumptions are accurate, how would it change if
>the two alternators shared a single regulator?
>(I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m not advocating
>this arrangement)
>
> Cessna 336/337 Models do just that. Beech Barons too.
> There is a switch for bringing a second regulator into
> service should the first one fail. This philosophy
> does produce a system whereby the two alternator
> ammeters track each other fairly closely . . . in
> my not so humble opinion, a totally misguided practice
> to keep pilot's 'happy'.
>
> There is no practical NEED for balancing the
> loads on two alternators assuming (1) either
> alternator can carry 100% of ships loads
> with (2) demonstrated adequacy of cooling.
>
> This shade-tree 'paralleling' scheme creates
> single points of failure for both alternators.
> How this got past in-house DERs is a mystery
> to me . . . how the FAA bought it is a . . .
> well . . . I won't go there.
>
>Would the result change If the two alternators were PMA units,
>mechanically tied together and producing a sin wave 'in-phase.'
>
> The engines cannot be synchronized that tightly.
>
>One final question I've wondered about. How do twin engine planes
>with two alternators manage (my assumed) tendency for two alternators
>in parallel quickly relying on the larger voltage out unit for most
>of the current?
>
> They parallel fields on a single regulator.
>
> I designed a true paralleling regulator proposal for Cessna on
> the 303 Crusader program thinking that there was a HUGH after market
> opportunity to put the system on new and fielded Barons and
>Skymasters.
> I don't know how the Cessna West was wiring their airplanes.
>
> In any case, Cessna East didn't bite on the idea so I
> was never funded to pursue the design. Twin Generators on
> earlier Cessna and Beech models WERE fitted with paralleling
> regulators which DID NOT compromise independence of the
> two system. Turbine twins have always enjoyed that design
> philosophy.
>
> Here is a sketch on a generator paralleling system
> on a Beech Model 18 I think . . . but typical of
> all dual generator twins of the era.
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Parallel_Aircraft_Generators.
>jpg
>
> This design uses voltage drop in the generator's
> compensation windings as a current shunt. Any difference
> in those two voltages biases the voltage sense windings
> to depress excitation to the generator with the higher
> load while elevating excitation on the lighter loaded
> machine . . . pretty slick.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
>
>________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Is there a switch configuration that will
>do this?
>
>
>>However, I have not yet found one in a form factor that would match
>>the rest of the standard toggles in my panel.
>
> What switches are you using?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
>________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
>
>
>>
>>Thanks Bob, now that is amazing engineering, zero PN junctions, must
>>be near bulletproof.
>>Cheers,
>>Brian.
>
> Pretty close. If memory serves, some versions of
> these regulators came with field remover/refurbish/
> replace manuals. They're stone simple in their
> physics of operation and very repairable as long
> as they were not abused.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
>________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: David Carter <david(at)carter.net>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Is there a switch configuration that will
>do this?
>
>>> What switches are you using?
>
>It appears that Stein's crew is putting these in by default unless I ask
>for something else.
>
>https://www.steinair.com/product/toggle-switch-spst-onoff-fast-on-terminals/
>
>
>---
>David Carter
>david(at)carter.net
>
>>
>
>________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
>From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
>
>I was under the impression that the Diamond twins either had Austro
>(originally Thielert) diesel engines or Lycoming avgas engines. Where
>did Continental come in?
>
>On 6/18/2021 12:48 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>> In Diamond twins one regulator is the master and has the job of
>> balancing the alternators.
>>
>> Im not actually sure how it achieves that, but works well most of the time.
>>
>> The regulators are provided by the engine mfrs (Continental or Austro).
>
>
>________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>
>
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dual alternators
>
>At 02:48 PM 6/18/2021, you wrote:
>
>>In Diamond twins one regulator is the master and
>>has the job of balancing the alternators.
>>
>>I=99m not actually sure how it achieves that, but works well most of
> the time.
>
> Is there a .pdf of the alternator wiring you could
> share? Sounds like an interesting system I'd like
> to understand.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
>________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
>
>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual alternators
>From: "tiyaverma" <ms.tiyaverma(at)gmail.com>
>
>
>Extremely inspired! Everything is extremely open Chandigarh Escorts Service (http://www.rashmibhargav.in/) clear illumination of issues. It contains really certainties.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502444#502444
>
>
>________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
>
>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual alternators
>From: "tiyaverma" <ms.tiyaverma(at)gmail.com>
>
>
>Incredible articles and awesome design. Your forum post entry merits the greater part of the positive input Chandigarh Escorts (http://www.chandigarhescortsgirl.com/) it"s been getting. I want to steer about this, for the explanation that it's useful.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502445#502445
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 06/18/21 |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Beware, Link contains virus.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502685#502685
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EGT issues hwo to troubleshoot best |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Hi all,
wanted to update on that case, we did dismantle the plug and remove the
d-sub pins, could see, that part of the braid around the wires was
touching , did use shrinktube to cover the end and now the EGT4 looks
stable.
Thanks for the advices and help.
Cheers Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | For Sale New Apple iPhone 12 Pro 5G 128GB Unlocked |
$849
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502695#502695
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | For Sale New Apple iPhone 12 Pro 5G 256GB Unlocked |
$949
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502697#502697
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | For Sale New Apple iPhone 12 Pro 5G 512GB Unlocked |
$1,149
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502700#502700
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Buy New Apple iPhone 12 Pro Max 5G 128GB Unlocked $949 |
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502701#502701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EGT issues hwo to troubleshoot best |
At 05:32 PM 7/2/2021, you wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>wanted to update on that case, we did dismantle the plug and remove the
>d-sub pins, could see, that part of the braid around the wires was
>touching , did use shrinktube to cover the end and now the EGT4 looks
>stable.
>
>Thanks for the advices and help.
>
>Cheers Werner
Good detective work! Ain't physics wunderful?
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EGT issues hwo to troubleshoot best |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Indeed, easier to detect then electronic gremlins with a logic approach
to each and every component in the line.
Found on the annual as well the nicked field wire which in one flight
probably caused an elevated voltage and hunted down a crimp on a fast-on
which, after 18 years, was degraded to become a high resistance point
(heating element). All fine now and plane back in the air with a good
feeling for finding these points.
Cheers Werner
On 04.07.2021 16:57, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> -- Good detective work! Ain't physics wunderful?
>
>
> - Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
I flipped the battery switch that activates the contractor this AM and melted the
ground wire.
I'm deep in the process of wiring my RV7 (most of the wiring completed), using
a legacy schematic with EBUS architecture. Wiring to the battery contractor is
standard--wire from contactor to switch (2-10) with ground to field of tabs
at firewall.
I have used a lawn tractor battery numerous times to energize the system when testing
components as they're installed. All has worked well until this AM.
I'd appreciate input to help me resolve what the issue might be.
Thanks much in advance.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7
912S, Sensenich Composite 3 Blade
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502714#502714
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
It might be pertinent to mention I did not hear the typical "clank" from the battery
contractor when I flipped the switch.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502715#502715
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Have you made any wiring changes to the battery contactor recently?
It seems that the melted wire is connected to positive someplace.
One possibility is a shorted contactor coil, but unlikely.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502716#502716
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| Subject: | Buy New Apple iPhone 12 5G 64GB Original Unlocked $679 |
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The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website http://www.esellibuy.com
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| Subject: | Buy New Apple iPhone 12 5G 128GB Original Unlocked |
$729
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The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
I haven't made any changes to the battery contactor recently.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502719#502719
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Remove the wire from the small terminal of the battery contactor.
Measure the resistance between that small contactor terminal and the large contactor
terminal that connects to battery positive.
I expect it to be about 20 ohms. If less than 5 ohms, the contactor coil is shorted.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502720#502720
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
Thanks Joe. Did that this AM. No resistance at all. Shorted contactor as you
suggest.
The burnt ground wire was in a loose bundle--run together but haven't tied them
together. I assume there's possible damage to other wires in the bundle? If
there's no damage to the insulation of the other wires then they're good to go?
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502722#502722
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
This experience makes me wonder why no circuit protection for the contactor activator
switch circuit in any of the architectures.
Maybe it's because a short in the contactor is unlikely, as Joe says, but isn't
that the assumption behind all circuits that do have circuit protection built
in?
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502723#502723
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
Hello Frank,
You are asking good questions.
What typically happens is the coil burns up and causes an open circuit, but
in your case it appears to have failed closed.
It will be interesting to conduct a post-mortem on it to determine how it c
reated such a hard fault.
Questions:
1. Can you post a picture of the master solenoid/contactor?2. What size wir
e runs from the solenoid to the master switch?
-Jeff
et> wrote:
This experience makes me wonder why no circuit protection for the contactor
activator switch circuit in any of the architectures.
Maybe it's because a short in the contactor is unlikely, as Joe says, but i
sn't that the assumption behind all circuits that do have circuit protectio
n built in?
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502723#502723
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
At 03:15 PM 7/6/2021, you wrote:
>Hello Frank,
>
>
>You are asking good questions.
>
>What typically happens is the coil burns up and causes an open
>circuit, but in your case it appears to have failed closed.
>
>It will be interesting to conduct a post-mortem on it to determine
>how it created such a hard fault.
We've inspected a few failures here over the
years but a hard fault across the coil is
a new one.
Here's an exemplar 'open' coil
https://tinyurl.com/yzcx4q2u
If you have no other plans for the failed
part, I'd like to have it.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
At 01:20 PM 7/6/2021, you wrote:
>
>This experience makes me wonder why no circuit protection for the
>contactor activator switch circuit in any of the architectures.
>
>Maybe it's because a short in the contactor is unlikely, as Joe
>says, but isn't that the assumption behind all circuits that do have
>circuit protection built in?
The vast majority of failures in wires
is a lost of continuity. Broken wire,
loose terminal, etc. The battery contactor
control wire is generally never at-risk
for fault to ground on the run between
contactor and master switch . . . the master
contactor simply becomes 'stuck on'.
The fault you've experienced is exceedingly
rare . . . the first one I've heard of.
It would be interesting to identify and
document the failure mode.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
Jeff
What pic would be most revealing for you? Installed on the firewall? Removed
on the bench? Other?
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502729#502729
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
I'd like to see it as installed, for starters.
-Jeff
t> wrote:
Jeff
What pic would be most revealing for you?=C2- Installed on the firewall?
=C2- Removed on the bench?=C2- Other?
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502729#502729
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n1dw" <n1deltawhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Melted battery contractor ground wire |
Frank,
The only way you are going to melt that wire is likely with a direct short
between positive and negative battery voltages. Most likely candidates for
that occurrence is a mis-wired switch or contactor.
I would disconnect the wire from the switch where it attaches to the 'field
of tabs' and rewire from the switch to the contactor. Do a continuity test
from the contactor terminal to the now disconnected connector at the field
of tabs. In the switch 'ON' position, you should have very little
resistance, and high resistance in the 'OFF' position. If both of those are
TRUE, then that wiring should be OK. If they are not both TRUE, then you
need to examine the wiring to the switch more closely.
Another possibility is that you have the positive and negative terminals of
the contactor switched with your wiring arrangement. That is the area I
would examine next after all the foregoing. If neither of these is the
problem, could it be a bad contactor?
Doug Windhorn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of frank3
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 1:49 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Melted battery contractor ground wire
-->
I flipped the battery switch that activates the contractor this AM and
melted the ground wire.
I'm deep in the process of wiring my RV7 (most of the wiring completed),
using a legacy schematic with EBUS architecture. Wiring to the battery
contractor is standard--wire from contactor to switch (2-10) with ground to
field of tabs at firewall.
I have used a lawn tractor battery numerous times to energize the system
when testing components as they're installed. All has worked well until
this AM.
I'd appreciate input to help me resolve what the issue might be.
Thanks much in advance.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7
912S, Sensenich Composite 3 Blade
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502714#502714
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Buy New Apple iPhone 12 5G 256GB Original Unlocked |
$829
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website http://www.esellibuy.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Buy New Apple iPhone 12 Pro 5G 128GB Original Unlocked |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 09:08 PM 7/6/2021, you wrote:
Frank,
The only way you are going to melt that wire is likely with a direct short
between positive and negative battery voltages. Most likely candidates forthat
occurrence is a mis-wired switch or contactor.
Question: did this contactor installation EVER work?
Q: What is the measured resistance of the contactor's
coil? . . . WITH ANY SPIKE SUPPRESSION DIODE
REMOVED.
Q: Is there ANY continuity between the any terminal
of contactor and it's case?
Q: What kind of contactor is this? 3-terminal, 4-terminal?
Q: Is there a spike suppression diode installed across
the contactor's coil terminals. Has this been checked
for proper polarity? (Banded end needs to fact the battery,
other end faces master switch). If this diode is BACKWARDS
or SHORTED it will cause failure of the contactor-to-master
switch wire. If a backwards diode is found to be root
cause of the burned wire, then replace BOTH diode
and wire. The current impressed on the diode during
wire-burning will have exceeded its ratings and
it's probably toast too.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502737#502737
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
Folks, I posted some erroneous info. When I measured the resistance between the
small contactor terminal and the larger terminal connecting to the battery (+)
I did so with the diode in place. Hence, the "no resistance". (I'm still
learning or at least trying to)
Today I removed the contactor, removed the diode from the contactor, and checked
for resistance, again. This time I got 0.016 ohms. So, according to Joe's
criteria, it's still a bad contactor. Guess we ended up at the same place using
a different path?
Just for kicks, I did a bench test. I connected a 22 awg wire to the small terminal,
terminating at the the master switch (2-10). Using a similar wire I connected
to the switch terminating at neg side of contactor. I applied jumper
cables to the large contactor terminals. I activated the switch and then connected
the jumper cables to the battery. Same result--wires melted.
Tried to attach pic of the contactor on the firewall but unable to reduce the pic
file size.
Joe asked what size wire I used. 18 awg contactor to master switch; 22 awg to
field of tabs. I can not recall whay I used the 18 awg instead of 22 awg. The
18 awg survived the event. The 22 awg melted, as a fussible link for the 18
awg?
Bob, if you still want the contactor I'll gladly send it to you. Just let me know
where to send.
Thanks everyone for you interest and advice. I have ordered a new contactor from
our friends at B&C.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502739#502739
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 7/7/2021 6:09 PM, frank3 wrote:
>
> Folks, I posted some erroneous info. When I measured the resistance between
the small contactor terminal and the larger terminal connecting to the battery
(+) I did so with the diode in place. Hence, the "no resistance". (I'm still
learning or at least trying to)
>
> Today I removed the contactor, removed the diode from the contactor, and checked
for resistance, again. This time I got 0.016 ohms. So, according to Joe's
criteria, it's still a bad contactor. Guess we ended up at the same place using
a different path?
>
> Just for kicks, I did a bench test. I connected a 22 awg wire to the small terminal,
terminating at the the master switch (2-10). Using a similar wire I
connected to the switch terminating at neg side of contactor. I applied jumper
cables to the large contactor terminals. I activated the switch and then connected
the jumper cables to the battery. Same result--wires melted.
>
> Tried to attach pic of the contactor on the firewall but unable to reduce the
pic file size.
>
> Joe asked what size wire I used. 18 awg contactor to master switch; 22 awg to
field of tabs. I can not recall whay I used the 18 awg instead of 22 awg.
The 18 awg survived the event. The 22 awg melted, as a fussible link for the
18 awg?
>
> Bob, if you still want the contactor I'll gladly send it to you. Just let me
know where to send.
>
> Thanks everyone for you interest and advice. I have ordered a new contactor
from our friends at B&C.
>
> --------
> Frank McDonald
> Kitfox S7 - sold
> RV7 in progress
> Acworth, GA
That doesn't 'sound' right. There should be 2 'fat' terminals and one
small terminal on a typical master contactor. With no voltage applied,
you should measure open circuit (infinite resistance) between the small
terminal and one of the fat terminals, some relatively low (but not
close to zero; see Joe's resistance number) resistance between the small
terminal and the other fat terminal, and infinite resistance between
the 2 fat terminals.
Measuring .016 ohms with a typical ohm meter sounds a little suspicious;
there's often more resistance than that in the leads and terminal
contact points.
Did you have it hooked up as shown in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FSK1JblQaE
Near the end, he shows how to hook up a 4 terminal version (less common).
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Frank, I interpreted your post to mean that you connected one jumper cable from
battery positive to a fat terminal on the contactor,
and you connected another jumper cable from the negative battery terminal to the
other contactor fat terminal.
If that is true, then you are lucky that the contactor is defective. There could
have been flying molten metal.
The negative battery terminal should NOT be connected to a fat contactor terminal
because something bad will happen.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502741#502741
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
>
>Bob, if you still want the contactor I'll gladly send it to
>you. Just let me know where to send.
Bob Nuckolls
PO Box 130
Medicine Lodge, Kansas 67104-0130
>Thanks everyone for you interest and advice. I have ordered a new
>contactor from our friends at B&C.
Was this contactor from B&C originally? Which
part?
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Buy New Apple iPhone 12 Pro 5G 256GB Original Unlocked |
$949
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Buy New Apple iPhone 12 Pro 5G 512GB Unlocked $1,149 |
| From: | "jeiaery" <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com> |
The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
Read this topic online here:
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
Bob's questions answered:
1. Yes, the contactor has been functioning for a couple of months. I've been
using jumper cables to connect a lawn tractor battery so I can test components
as they are installed.
2. The measured resistance is 16.5 ohms, small terminal to battery side fat terminal
with diode removed. (The 0.016 value reported and questioned by Charlie
was using the wrong range).
3. There is no continuity between any of the terminals and the case.
4. This is a three terminal Cole Hersee provided by Vans Aircraft.
5. There was a spike supression diode installed, provided by Vans with terminals
and shrink tube insulation already installed. I peeled back the insulation
to ensure the diode was installed properly, with the band towards the fat terminal.
As you suggested, the diode is now nonfunctional.
Bob, the contactor is in the mail.
As Doug suggested (6 Jul #11) I went through the suggested process to test the
wiring and switch. Both were TRUE--both wiring and switch were proper.
BTW, I don't understand how a miss-wired switch could cause a direct short. My
understand is the switch simply enables the circuit to conduct current or not.
I can see the possibility of a short between the switch and the airframe but
don't understand miss-wiring. Something I need educating about?
Jeff, I submitted the pic with contactor installed. We'll see if it gets published.
Joe (7 Jul #5), you interpreted my post correctly. After reviewing schematics
I see I WAS lucky! (Might just as well connected the two jumper cables!!! Just
talking to myself)
Charlie (7 Jul #4), thanks for suggesting the video on battery contractors. It
was wired per the video. What you describe re: open circuits & resistance between
the terminals is what I was getting. I must not have described clearly.
And, as stated above, you were right to be suspicious of my #, I used the wrong
range.
Again, thanks to all for their interest, questions, and suggestions.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502751#502751
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roger & Jean <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
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DQoNCg0KDQo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
Don't know if this is relevant but checked the fuses to all the circuits and found
the 5amp fuse to the Dynon EFIS was blown. EFIS was only open circuit at
the time of the incident. Evidence there must have been some kind of over voltage
event, I guess.
New fuse and using EBUS circuit I found the EFIS is good to go.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502753#502753
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
Is it possible that you inadvertently hooked-up the battery backwards that
day?
net> wrote:
Don't know if this is relevant but checked the fuses to all the circuits an
d found the 5amp fuse to the Dynon EFIS was blown.=C2- EFIS was only open
circuit at the time of the incident.=C2- Evidence there must have been s
ome kind of over voltage event, I guess.
New fuse and using EBUS circuit I found the EFIS is good to go.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502753#502753
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List: |
I'm surprised you are surprised. Spam is a small problem right now compared
to what is coming.
Currently, large sections of the internet are constantly under attack by
advertisers and criminals. I was a moderator on one of the world's biggest
aviation forums and for every legitimate new member who joined and posted,
there were 10 ads or scams. In order to prevent the board from being
completely flooded, we had to block all new user's posts from being visible
until a moderator had checked it and decided whether or not it was
legitimate. This means that the spammers and scammers found it worthwhile
to create new accounts (as laborious a process as we could reasonably make
it) and then post dozens of messages from that account despite 99.999% of
those messages never being visible to anyone. Every once in a while there
was a real human involved in trying to get spam through and sometimes they
succeeded, usually by copying an existing post.
Right now the flood is being kept at bay fairly easily by a few minor
inconveniences for new users and a lot of effort by unpaid volunteers. Keep
in mind though that there is an almost unlimited amount of money being
spent on programming AI systems that will get much, much better at
pretending to be humans on the internet. Right now, over half of all emails
in the world are spam. In the next 50 years I think we will see 99% of
internet traffic turn into AI systems trying to figure out ways to
advertise and scam the humans still trying to enjoy this technology. It's
going to get to the point where the only way you will be allowed to
communicate with anyone over the internet (and phone system for that
matter) will be to have someone already in the system vouch for you. Unless
you know someone who can physically confirm that you exist and can pass
that introduction on to others, it will be assumed that you're an AI and
you will be blocked.
On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 9:52 AM Roger & Jean wrote:
> Why does this garbage keep appearing on the AeroElectric List?
>
>
> *From: *jeiaery <jeiaery(at)82ultra.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, July 7, 2021 10:33 PM
> *To: *aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: Buy New Apple iPhone 12 Pro 5G 256GB
> Original Unlocked $949
>
>
> The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502743#502743
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
My 1st thought, as well. That would explain smoking the spike
suppression diode on the contactor. Must have been God's Own suppression
diode, though, to take the wire with it.
Charlie
On 7/8/2021 12:06 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
> Is it possible that you inadvertently hooked-up the battery backwards
> that day?
>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
>
> Don't know if this is relevant but checked the fuses to all the
> circuits and found the 5amp fuse to the Dynon EFIS was blown. EFIS
> was only open circuit at the time of the incident. Evidence there
> must have been some kind of over voltage event, I guess.
>
> New fuse and using EBUS circuit I found the EFIS is good to go.
>
> --------
> Frank McDonald
> Kitfox S7 - sold
> RV7 in progress
> Acworth, GA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502753#502753
> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502753#502753>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-; - MATRONICS
> WEB FORUMS -
> http://forums.matronbsp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> http://wiki.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contributi=====================
>
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I think that jluckey has solved the problem. Reverse battery polarity explains
the melted wire and the blown fuse. Luckily the EFIS was not damaged.
I predict that Bob N will not find anything wrong with the contactor. An over
voltage event is extremely unlikely without an alternator running.
It is pretty easy to reverse battery voltage when using jumper cables. One has
a 50-50 chance of getting it wrong.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502757#502757
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Magnetized Dynon D100 Display |
| From: | "cskelt" <cskelt(at)cantab.net> |
The mystery of the magnetized EFIS has been solved. Don Jones of Dynon Technical
Support offered to send me a remanufactured D100 EFIS to swap out and to test
mine at their shop. I determined that the replacement had barely measurable
permanent magnetism in the same location as the original, but it was not enough
to affect the panel mount compass nearby.
I installed it in the panel, did an approximate compass swing using our local taxiway
centerlines as a reference for the cardinal pointsclose enough for our
purposes as magnetic deviation is minimal here. The figure shows good agreement
in cruise between EFIS and panel mount compass. No doubt a more rigorous compass
swing would improve things further.
Don sent me his findings.
I have looked into the magnetized D100. As you noted, it is the LCD that is the
source. More specifically the thin stainless frame around the LCD. Early version
LCD's (like yours) apparently have a stainless alloy frame that can be
magnetized, later versions (bright screen models) have a better stainless alloy
and won't stick to a magnet. The replacement we sent has the later version.
The panel mounted compass reads the same whether the master switch and avionics
switches are on or off, and whether or not the engine is running. Carefully
following Bob's guidelines in the Aero-Electric Connection while building no doubt
helped!
It should go without saying that I couldnt be happier with Dynons support, the
performance of the replacement unit, and that Im confident the problem wont return.
Many thanks to Don for his follow up that led to a successful conclusion.
Chris Skelt
LNC2 at IWS.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502758#502758
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/reman_efis_works_260.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
| From: | "frank3" <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
That's always a possibility, I suppose. Maybe Bob postmortem will shed some light
on your supposition.
Thanks for supposing a new idea thread.
--------
Frank McDonald
Kitfox S7 - sold
RV7 in progress
Acworth, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502760#502760
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
At 12:59 PM 7/8/2021, you wrote:
>
>I think that jluckey has solved the problem. Reverse battery
>polarity explains the melted wire and the blown fuse. Luckily the
>EFIS was not damaged.
>I predict that Bob N will not find anything wrong with the
>contactor. An over voltage event is extremely unlikely without an
>alternator running.
>It is pretty easy to reverse battery voltage when using jumper
>cables. One has a 50-50 chance of getting it wrong.
agreed. in fact, the spike suppression diode
served to PROTECT against reversed polarity.
It would have prevented contactor closing by
shunting the applied voltage to near zero and
thus causing the wire to melt.
This suggests a reason for including a fuse
in the battery contactor control line . . .
it would prevent wire and fuse damage in
the reverse polarity event.
Perhaps a fusible link? 24AWG against a
20AWG control line? Perhaps a bit more
robust mechanically. But this should
be an exceedingly rare event.
If you've not yet mailed the contactor,
I suggest you re-install it and see what
happens.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank McDonald <frank3phyl(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
In addition to being embarrassed for crossing the terminals, I am VERY relieved
to have the answer. I know my build is good (If only I could do something more
robust to guard against human error). The cloud of uncertainty is a dark one.
I have learned a lot about electronics problem solving and how contactors and diodes
work in the system. Thanks for that.
I also know I have an answer for the question, Grandad, what happens if you cross
the battery terminals in your airplane.
I offer to you all, as a sort of recompense for your support, a Robert Fulghum
essay about jumper cables, page 128, in his book, All I Really Need To Know I
Learned In Kindergarten. It will surely bring out a chuckle as you read it!
Cheers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Melted battery contractor ground wire |
> This suggests a reason for including a fuse
> in the battery contactor control line . . .
> it would prevent wire and fuse damage in
> the reverse polarity event.
See new
Z-figure http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z38.pdf
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Buy New Apple iPhone 12 Pro Max 5G 128GB Unlocked |
$949
| From: | Roger&Jean <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net> |
We don't need this advertising crap on the list!
Roger
On Jul 4, 2021 4:20 AM, jeiaery wrote:
>
>
> The Price is Canadian dollar. Visit Our Website www.esellibuy.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502701#502701
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Bob Archer Antenna Voodoo |
BobN, CharlieE, & RF Gurus et al,
I'm considering Bob Archer's wingtip VOR antenna for my RV-7 but I am too i
gnorant to understand how the thing works.
I have read posts all over the intrawebs and have some questions:=C2- (Pl
ease use small words and talk slowly):
1. It looks to me like the 'front/leading edge' 60 deg leg is bolted direct
ly to the base leg which is grounded.=C2- How can the "active" (is that t
he correct word?) be directly connected to ground?
2. I have read articles where the author is talking about "tuning" the ante
nna after it is installed in a specific airframe.=C2-=C2-=C2- a. They
talk about trimming/cutting pieces - what pieces and how much trimming?=C2
- b. They also talk about fooling with the dielectric section but I don't
understand what physical dimensions/properties they are altering.=C2- Ar
e they cutting aluminum or bakelite; or moving feed line screw holes; or ju
st moving the bakelite piece around in small increments??
3. SWR meter vs Antenna Analyzer=C2- a. I think that SWR applies to trans
mitting, so is it relevant with respect to VOR antenna?=C2- b. What is an
Antenna Analyzer and how does it work?=C2- (in 5 words or less)
TIA for VOR Antenna 101
-Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bob Archer Antenna Voodoo |
On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Jeff Luckey wrote:
> BobN, CharlieE, & RF Gurus et al,
>
>
> I'm considering Bob Archer's wingtip VOR antenna for my RV-7 but I am too
> ignorant to understand how the thing works.
>
> I have read posts all over the intrawebs and have some questions: (Please
> use small words and talk slowly):
>
> 1. It looks to me like the 'front/leading edge' 60 deg leg is bolted
> directly to the base leg which is grounded. How can the "active" (is that
> the correct word?) be directly connected to ground?
>
> 2. I have read articles where the author is talking about "tuning" the
> antenna after it is installed in a specific airframe.
> a. They talk about trimming/cutting pieces - what pieces and how much
> trimming?
> b. They also talk about fooling with the dielectric section but I don't
> understand what physical dimensions/properties they are altering. Are they
> cutting aluminum or bakelite; or moving feed line screw holes; or just
> moving the bakelite piece around in small increments??
>
> 3. SWR meter vs Antenna Analyzer
> a. I think that SWR applies to transmitting, so is it relevant with
> respect to VOR antenna?
> b. What is an Antenna Analyzer and how does it work? (in 5 words or
> less)
>
>
> TIA for VOR Antenna 101
>
>
> -Jeff
>
Hi Jeff,
Anything beyond a plain 1/4 wave or a dipole is beyond me, too. Only thing
I can answer is #1; the center conductor of the coax is only connected 'one
end' of the capacitor formed by the little 2.5" long metal strip, the
bakelite strip, and rest of the '3rd leg' of the triangle. The entire body
of the antenna is *electrically* (at least to a DC ohm meter) tied to the
base strip. So the only thing that the center conductor physically touches
is that 2.5" metal strip, that's DC-isolated from the rest of the antenna.
In the pic, only the two screws with ring terminals are metal. The other
two that tie the 2.5" strip, bakelite, and 3rd leg together are both nylon.
When it comes to tuning, it seems to me that the only practical thing that
mere mortals could reasonably do is trim the length of the outside leg.
The pic shows a purchased Archer Comm antenna; you can see my homebrew nav
behind my hand, complete with green cutting board dielectric. Will it
float? Only Dave knows...
Someone on the interwebs once said that the Archer antenna automagically
turns the entire plane into the antenna. But that's something I read on the
interwebs, so...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bob Archer Antenna Voodoo |
Search "gamma match" for more than you want to know on how Bob designed
this antenna. It is DC-grounded, like many antennas. This is
counter-intuitive when you are just immersing your mind into the world of
radiators. "How can it work if it's short-circuited to ground!" At RF, it
does a fine job of coupling energy from the feedline to free space (the
"ether") which is all that matters.
SWR is a concern for Rx as well as Tx because it's all about proper
matching and resulting maximum power transfer from antenna to feedline or
vice-versa. I can tune my "screwdriver" mobile HF antenna by listening for
the sudden increase in received noise as it passes through resonance. That
antenna won't radiate much at all if out of tune, but it's also deaf on the
receive side if not properly tuned. SWR matters for optimum receive
performance. While an out of tune antenna won't blow any finals while
receiving as it can on transmit, it also won't put much signal into the
receiver when you need it to, like using a VOR/ILS.
An antenna analyzer is going to provide much more info than a basic VSWR
meter will, but most of it will be unusable if you don't know what the
values mean. An analyzer is far easier to find resonance with than an SWR
meter (and you'll have to apply transmit power to the antenna to make the
SWR meter read anything) - but an SWR meter and transmit power source are
all the test equip you need for what you're trying to accomplish. Borrow a
nano-vector network analyzer if you can, or drop $60 on one.
-Bill
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 9:55 AM Charlie England
wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Jeff Luckey wrote:
>
>> BobN, CharlieE, & RF Gurus et al,
>>
>>
>> I'm considering Bob Archer's wingtip VOR antenna for my RV-7 but I am too
>> ignorant to understand how the thing works.
>>
>> I have read posts all over the intrawebs and have some questions:
>> (Please use small words and talk slowly):
>>
>> 1. It looks to me like the 'front/leading edge' 60 deg leg is bolted
May 13, 2021 - July 13, 2021
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-qd