AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-rp
December 23, 2023 - March 26, 2024
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 6:10=AFPM Dave Saylor
wrote:
> Thanks Joe. The door switches are good, still looking.
>
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 13:21 user9253 wrote:
>
>>
>> I had the same problem with my microwave. The problem was the door
>> switch. Evidently the microwave was designed so that if it operates wit
h
>> the
>> door not fully latched, then it will short out the power supply. How
>> dare them
>> design something that blows the house circuit breaker which could cause
>> the
>> refrigerator to quit and spoil food. I bypassed that switch. The
>> microwave
>> has been working fine for years since.
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512829#512829
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
Only thought is that the normal 'spread' is 4; not 6. 22 for 18, 20 for 16,
etc. OTOH, testing might show that if using a really short link, using a
wider spread might be helpful, because the shorter length is going to
reduce system heating.
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 10:30=AFAM Christopher Cee Stone
wrote:
> The Delphi spec does not indicate length. Really is' material properties
> not performance characteristics.
>
> I will do a couple of tests with varying "link" lengths using a fully
> charged 12v, group 24, new lead acid battery. (I happen to have a new one
> in the shop)
>
> Unfortunately I don't have a recording scope at the moment... so this wil
l
> have to be an empirical test. That is, what is the failure mode, not tim
e
> to 'link' open.
>
> Test specimens: 24 awg tefzel wire 'links', connected to 18 awg feeder
> using PIDG butt splices, fibreglass sleeve.
>
> 'link' lengths in inches: 2,3,6,12
>
> Comments/suggestions are welcomed!
>
> I will post results in the coming days.
>
> ...chris
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:02=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 09:31 AM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>>
>> Back to the original question of the length of a fusible link. That is
>> the length of smaller gauge wire comprising=C3=82 the 'link'.
>>
>>
>>
>> Had to do some 'digging' to see if I could
>> find where that 3-6 inch citation came from.
>> No joy.
>>
>> Actually, 6" is the minimum. 9" is more typical,
>> 10" not unheard of. 3" is too short . . .
>>
>> . . . and INSULATED with material resistant to
>> energy released by clearing the fault.
>>
>> See: http://tinyurl.com/4vnzdjpc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> ////
>> (o o)
>> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
>> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
>> < show me where I'm wrong. >
>> =======================
=========
>>
>> In the interest of creative evolution
>> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
>> on physics and good practice.
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
At 10:27 AM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>The Delphi spec does not indicate
>length.=C2 Really=C2 is' material properties not performance
characteristics.
There were TWO data points in that link . . .
One was a listing of manufactured links specific to
certain automotive applications:
https://tinyurl.com/yrgvc2er
Here we see lengths quoted from 8" to 10.5"
I've read other sources citing similar
lengths. Too short compromises the fusing
dynamic of which material properties a
part of the formula.
>I will do a couple of tests with varying "link"
>lengths using a fully charged 12v, group 24, new
>lead acid battery. (I happen to have a new one in the shop)
>Unfortunately I don't have a recording scope at
>the moment... so this will have to be an
>empirical=C2 test.=C2 That is, what is the failure mode, not time to
'link' open.
>
>Test specimens: 24 awg tefzel wire 'links',
>connected to 18 awg feeder using PIDG butt splices,=C2 fibreglass sleeve.
>
>'link' lengths=C2 in inches: 2,3,6,12
24AWG links are atypical of the devices in
common use. That combination of fiberglas over
24AWG was crafted in our shops about 30 years
ago as an alternative to cartridge fuses in the
leads between an b-lead shunt and a panel-ammeter.
I have no doubt that you will successfully 'fuse'
2" lengths of 24AWG . . . 100+ amps of battery
current pretty well predicts the outcome.
When I'm considering a 'bus extension' in
crafting an architecture, the decision considers
mechanical robustness and ease of reliable assembly.
For example, extending the bus out to a 5A crowbar
breaker might call for 20AWG fusible link driving
a 16AWG extension.
These are system segments NOT part of the
post crash fire safety considerations that call
for relatively small, FAST protection on always
hot circuits. 7A fuses work good in crash post
crash fire concerns.
Hence my design decision would lean toward easily
acquired, manufactured link material that behaves
well in PIDG crimps . . . there is no practical
motivation to consider 'amperage' values for
the links.
But having offered that, I'm interested in results
of your experiments. You can roughly control
the magnitude of fault current by how much 20AWG
wire is in series with your link. I'd shoot for
something on the order of 100A. 20AWG is 10mOHMs/foot.
Your battery will present a series impedance on the order
of 10 mOhm. So 5 feet of wire in the remainders of
the test loop would be about right.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
...appreciate your discussion and input!
This discussion is the result of the addition of two E-mags to the current
RV project and reviewing the Emag installation instruction. They call for a
circuit breaker in series with the power feeder for the E-mag(s). I am
using Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build. I am considering a
fusible link instead of a circuit breaker as I am running out of panel
space. Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
...chris
On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 9:26=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:27 AM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>
> The Delphi spec does not indicate length.=C3=82 Really=C3=82 is' materia
l
> properties not performance characteristics.
>
>
> There were TWO data points in that link . . .
>
> One was a listing of manufactured links specific to
> certain automotive applications:
>
> * https://tinyurl.com/yrgvc2er *
>
> Here we see lengths quoted from 8" to 10.5"
> I've read other sources citing similar
> lengths. Too short compromises the fusing
> dynamic of which material properties a
> part of the formula.
>
>
> I will do a couple of tests with varying "link" lengths using a fully
> charged 12v, group 24, new lead acid battery. (I happen to have a new one
> in the shop)
> Unfortunately I don't have a recording scope at the moment... so this wil
l
> have to be an empirical=C3=82 test.=C3=82 That is, what is the failure m
ode, not
> time to 'link' open.
>
> Test specimens: 24 awg tefzel wire 'links', connected to 18 awg feeder
> using PIDG butt splices,=C3=82 fibreglass sleeve.
>
> 'link' lengths=C3=82 in inches: 2,3,6,12
>
>
> 24AWG links are atypical of the devices in
> common use. That combination of fiberglas over
> 24AWG was crafted in our shops about 30 years
> ago as an alternative to cartridge fuses in the
> leads between an b-lead shunt and a panel-ammeter.
>
> I have no doubt that you will successfully 'fuse'
> 2" lengths of 24AWG . . . 100+ amps of battery
> current pretty well predicts the outcome.
>
> When I'm considering a 'bus extension' in
> crafting an architecture, the decision considers
> mechanical robustness and ease of reliable assembly.
> For example, extending the bus out to a 5A crowbar
> breaker might call for 20AWG fusible link driving
> a 16AWG extension.
>
> These are system segments NOT part of the
> post crash fire safety considerations that call
> for relatively small, FAST protection on always
> hot circuits. 7A fuses work good in crash post
> crash fire concerns.
>
> Hence my design decision would lean toward easily
> acquired, manufactured link material that behaves
> well in PIDG crimps . . . there is no practical
> motivation to consider 'amperage' values for
> the links.
>
> But having offered that, I'm interested in results
> of your experiments. You can roughly control
> the magnitude of fault current by how much 20AWG
> wire is in series with your link. I'd shoot for
> something on the order of 100A. 20AWG is 10mOHMs/foot.
> Your battery will present a series impedance on the order
> of 10 mOhm. So 5 feet of wire in the remainders of
> the test loop would be about right.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
=========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
| From: | "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Bob,
Well, I did note several .1 volt fluctuations as displayed on the Dynon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512943#512943
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Beginnings of my Tailwind Electrical System |
Hello all
I'm deep in thought working on the power distribution for my Tailwind
Project. I'm working towards a Z13/8 implementation, the Z101 extras
don't hold much appeal or utility for me. I hope some of you learned
gents could give my proposed system a quick look. It's pretty basic so
far.
I'm not ready to offer my basic bus power distribution drawing or load
analysis just yet. But I'd like to ask a question or two as I'm
wrapping my head around all the issues.
I note on all the Z drawings the wire from the battery contactor to the
main bus is not fused. Is this similar to the starter cables, in that
it's a fat wire that is unlikely to be compromised?
On the Z13/8 drawing I see a double pole single throw switch is used to
bring up the main alternator (Plane Power AS 12-E160 in my case) and the
battery contactor / main bus. I'm considering using another DPST switch
to bring up the SD-8 and the alt E-bus feed. Is there any condition
where I would want one or the other of those to be switched off?
My current thought is to run the ignition start power for the pair of
P-Mags from the endurance bus. To start the engine I'd turn on the
endurance bus, the low voltage warning should come up as the battery
will be at rest. After starting the engine, the EFIS ammeter should
show the SD-8 supplying power. Bringing up the main bus I'd then switch
off the alt E-bus feed / SD-8 to run on the main alternator. That
should satisfy preflight testing of the backup systems would it not?
I'd appreciate any insights that I'm sure I'm missing so far. I've
attached a basic sketch of my proposed bus power distrubution drawing,
and load analysis. If any of you have thoughts or questions please
offer them. With any changes we find we need, I'll then get stuck in
with a more complete power distrubution drawing.
Thanks for any help you all can provide.
Gerry van Dyk
Tailwind W10 C-GVDZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | M Wilson <mike_tailwind(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Beginnings of my Tailwind Electrical System |
Hi Gerry,
I just finished my Tailwind this year.=C2- =C2-I went with a simple Z-1
1 approach.
The main feed from the battery contactor should be routed carefully to prev
ent compromise.=C2- If you smell smoke the first thing to do is turn of t
he master.=C2- That is what ultimately protects that line.I put my single
P-mag on the main bus.=C2- I don't know how you are wiring your starter
but it is typically powered off of the main which is where you want your P-
mag power to come from.=C2- To start I turn on the master with the e-bus
off.
After the engine starts I turn on the avionics master and e-bus ( which is
actually avionics alternate feed).=C2- The engine gauges (EIS) are powere
d off of the main bus so that I can check them before engine start.Just som
e thoughts.=C2-=C2-
-Mike
vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> wrote:
Hello allI'm deep in thought working on the power distribution for my Tail
wind Project.=C2- I'm working towards a Z13/8 implementation, the Z101 ex
tras don't hold much appeal or utility for me.=C2- I hope some of you lea
rned gents could give my proposed system a quick look.=C2- It's pretty ba
sic so far.
I'm not ready to offer my basic bus power distribution drawing or load anal
ysis just yet.=C2- But I'd like to ask a question or two as I'm wrapping
my head around all the issues.
I note on all the Z drawings the wire from the battery contactor to the mai
n bus is not fused.=C2- Is this similar to the starter cables, in that it
's a fat wire that is unlikely to be compromised?
On the Z13/8 drawing I see a double pole single throw switch is used to bri
ng up the main alternator (Plane Power AS 12-E160 in my case) and the batte
ry contactor / main bus.=C2- I'm considering using another DPST switch to
bring up the SD-8 and the alt E-bus feed.=C2- Is there any condition whe
re I would want one or the other of those to be switched off?
My current thought is to run the ignition start power for the pair of P-Mag
s from the endurance bus.=C2- To start the engine I'd turn on the enduran
ce bus, the low voltage warning should come up as the battery will be at re
st.=C2- After starting the engine, the EFIS ammeter should show the SD-8
supplying power.=C2- Bringing up the main bus I'd then switch off the alt
E-bus feed / SD-8 to run on the main alternator.=C2- That should satisfy
preflight testing of the backup systems would it not?
I'd appreciate any insights that I'm sure I'm missing so far.=C2- I've at
tached a basic sketch of my proposed bus power distrubution drawing, and lo
ad analysis.=C2- If any of you have thoughts or questions please offer th
em.=C2- With any changes we find we need, I'll then get stuck in with a m
ore complete power distrubution drawing.
Thanks for any help you all can provide.
Gerry van DykTailwind W10 C-GVDZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Beginnings of my Tailwind Electrical System |
'Current thought'. I like it. ;-)
The master contactor provides circuit protection for the 'fat' wires
(manual trip mode).
Charlie
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Tue, Dec 26, 2023 at 4:08=AFPM Gerry van Dyk <gerry.vandyk@eastlin
k.ca>
wrote:
> Hello all
> I'm deep in thought working on the power distribution for my Tailwind
> Project. I'm working towards a Z13/8 implementation, the Z101 extras don
't
> hold much appeal or utility for me. I hope some of you learned gents cou
ld
> give my proposed system a quick look. It's pretty basic so far.
>
> I'm not ready to offer my basic bus power distribution drawing or load
> analysis just yet. But I'd like to ask a question or two as I'm wrapping
> my head around all the issues.
>
> I note on all the Z drawings the wire from the battery contactor to the
> main bus is not fused. Is this similar to the starter cables, in that it
's
> a fat wire that is unlikely to be compromised?
>
> On the Z13/8 drawing I see a double pole single throw switch is used to
> bring up the main alternator (Plane Power AS 12-E160 in my case) and the
> battery contactor / main bus. I'm considering using another DPST switch
to
> bring up the SD-8 and the alt E-bus feed. Is there any condition where I
> would want one or the other of those to be switched off?
>
> My current thought is to run the ignition start power for the pair of
> P-Mags from the endurance bus. To start the engine I'd turn on the
> endurance bus, the low voltage warning should come up as the battery will
> be at rest. After starting the engine, the EFIS ammeter should show the
> SD-8 supplying power. Bringing up the main bus I'd then switch off the a
lt
> E-bus feed / SD-8 to run on the main alternator. That should satisfy
> preflight testing of the backup systems would it not?
>
> I'd appreciate any insights that I'm sure I'm missing so far. I've
> attached a basic sketch of my proposed bus power distrubution drawing, an
d
> load analysis. If any of you have thoughts or questions please offer
> them. With any changes we find we need, I'll then get stuck in with a mo
re
> complete power distrubution drawing.
>
> Thanks for any help you all can provide.
>
> Gerry van Dyk
> Tailwind W10 C-GVDZ
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry Van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Beginnings of my Tailwind Electrical System |
Thanks Charlie=2E
Working on the full distribution drawing now=2E
Gerry
On 12/26/23 08=3A18 PM=2C Charlie England =3Cceengland7=40gmail=2Ecom=3E
wrote=3A
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E =27Current thought=27=2E I like it=2E =3B-)
=3E
=3E The master contactor provides circuit protection for the =27fat=27 w
ires (manual trip mode)=2E
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E Charlie
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E (https=3A//www=2Eavast=2Ecom/sig-email=3Futm=5Fmedium=email=26utm=5F
source=link=26utm=5Fcampaign=sig-email=26utm=5Fcontent=webmail=22
iwc-bad-attr==22=22 target==221=22=3EVirus-free=2Ewww=2Eavast=2Ecom(
https=3A//www=2Eavast=2Ecom/sig-email=3Futm=5Fmedium=email=26utm=5Fsou
rce=link=26utm=5Fcampaign=sig-email=26utm=5Fcontent=webmail )
=3E
=3E (=23DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 )
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E On Tue=2C Dec 26=2C 2023 at 4=3A08=AFPM Gerry van Dyk =3Cgerry
=2Evandyk=40eastlink=2Eca(javascript=3Amain=2Ecompose( )=3E wrote=3A
=3E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E Hello all
=3E =3E
=3E =3E I=27m deep in thought working on the power distribution for my T
ailwind Project=2E I=27m working towards a Z13/8 implementation=2C the Z
101 extras don=27t hold much appeal or utility for me=2E I hope some of
you learned gents could give my proposed system a quick look=2E It=27s p
retty basic so far=2E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E I=27m not ready to offer my basic bus power distribution drawing
or load analysis just yet=2E But I=27d like to ask a question or two as
I=27m wrapping my head around all the issues=2E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E I note on all the Z drawings the wire from the battery contactor
to the main bus is not fused=2E Is this similar to the starter cables=2C
in that it=27s a fat wire that is unlikely to be compromised=3F
=3E =3E
=3E =3E On the Z13/8 drawing I see a double pole single throw switch is
used to bring up the main alternator (Plane Power AS 12-E160 in my case)
and the battery contactor / main bus=2E I=27m considering using another
DPST switch to bring up the SD-8 and the alt E-bus feed=2E Is there any
condition where I would want one or the other of those to be switched o
ff=3F
=3E =3E
=3E =3E My current thought is to run the ignition start power for the pa
ir of P-Mags from the endurance bus=2E To start the engine I=27d turn on
the endurance bus=2C the low voltage warning should come up as the batt
ery will be at rest=2E After starting the engine=2C the EFIS ammeter sho
uld show the SD-8 supplying power=2E Bringing up the main bus I=27d then
switch off the alt E-bus feed / SD-8 to run on the main alternator=2E T
hat should satisfy preflight testing of the backup systems would it not=3F
=3E =3E
=3E =3E I=27d appreciate any insights that I=27m sure I=27m missing so f
ar=2E I=27ve attached a basic sketch of my proposed bus power distrubuti
on drawing=2C and load analysis=2E If any of you have thoughts or questi
ons please offer them=2E With any changes we find we need=2C I=27ll then
get stuck in with a more complete power distrubution drawing=2E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E Thanks for any help you all can provide=2E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E Gerry van Dyk
=3E =3E Tailwind W10 C-GVDZ
=3E =3E
=3E =3E
=3E
=3E
=3E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
At 09:59 AM 12/24/2023, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob,
>Well, I did note several .1 volt fluctuations as displayed on the Dynon
the significance of this observation is not
a 'given'. Digital displays may exhibit
some 'jumpiness' in the least significant
digits in spite of a rock solid stimulus.
This characteristic is the result of response
times, a/d converter performance and environment
for which the instrument is intended.
Laboratory grade instruments are not expected
to be fast while stability is valued. Field
instruments tend to be faster . . . but
more jitter.
A 0.1V fluctuation COULD be a driver for
the current fluctuations you observed . . .
depends on a number of system variables
most important of which is battery internal
resistance.
But if none of the illumination in the
cabin fluctuates in sympathy with the
current readings, I tend to think that
the readings are an artifact of measurement
technology.
I've got a constellation of tools suited
for ferreting out root cause of your
concerns. Yeah, the 'numbers' are intellectually
irritating but you've not described any
indication that something needs fixing.
I've oft suggested that ammeters are a
tiny step above useless in the operation
of your airplane. All loads are
known and critical components your
management of energy in the design
phase.
After that, airborne operation of the
electrical system should require no
analysis/diagnosis/decisions based on any
condition other than LO VOLTS. From
there, it's implementation of a proven
change of configuration . . . Plan-A,
Plan-B, perhaps a Plan-C.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
At 12:05 PM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>...appreciate your discussion and input!=C2 =C2
>
>This discussion is the result of the addition of
>two E-mags to the current RV project and
>reviewing the Emag installation instruction.
>They call for a circuit breaker in series with
>the power feeder for the E-mag(s).=C2 I am using
>Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build.=C2 I
>am considering a fusible link instead of a
>circuit breaker as I am running out of panel
>space.=C2 Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
voltage to the EMag is a CONTROL signal for the
purpose of disabling the mag during engine run-up
and/or engine shut down. Input current to that
port is TINY . . . about 0.04 Amps. That feeder
is an excellent candidate "source impedance
fault limiting".
Limiting a fault current to feeder friendly
levels: just splice a 22 ohm, 1-watt resistor
into the same spot you might use a fusible-link.
Cover with heat shrink.
A short on that feeder would be limited to
600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
or less . . . no effect on functionality.
It's been a common technique in my toolbox
in a constellation of designs for decades.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Bright <john_s_bright(at)outlook.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
I think we're talking about not a control signal but power for the electron
ic ignition. This is for engine start and in case of failure of the alterna
tor internal to the emagair unit.
The way I read the emagair install manuals:
Four cylinder: Manual-114-L_C4-V33.pdf
Six cylinder: Manual-P200-6XLycoming-V41-1.pdf
Bus power ' terminal #5 for four cylinder, pin A for six cylinder, 12, 24
, or 48-volt systems
a) Minimum - 10 volts
b) Maximum - 58 volts
c) Current draw from bus:
i) less than 0.5 amp (normal operating conditions)
ii) less than 1.0 amp (maximum draw with no-op internal alternator)
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list
-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 14:19
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fusible links
At 12:05 PM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
...appreciate your discussion and input!=C2 =C2
This discussion is the result of the addition of two E-mags to the current
RV project and reviewing the Emag installation instruction. They call for a
circuit breaker in series with the power feeder for the E-mag(s).=C2 I am
using Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build.=C2 I am considering a f
usible link instead of a circuit breaker as I am running out of panel space
.=C2 Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
voltage to the EMag is a CONTROL signal for the
purpose of disabling the mag during engine run-up
and/or engine shut down. Input current to that
port is TINY . . . about 0.04 Amps. That feeder
is an excellent candidate "source impedance
fault limiting".
Limiting a fault current to feeder friendly
levels: just splice a 22 ohm, 1-watt resistor
into the same spot you might use a fusible-link.
Cover with heat shrink.
A short on that feeder would be limited to
600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
or less . . . no effect on functionality.
It's been a common technique in my toolbox
in a constellation of designs for decades.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
Bob, et al...
Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
(SNIP)
A short on that feeder would be limited to
600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
or less . . . no effect on functionality.
It's been a common technique in my toolbox
in a constellation of designs for decades.
I too have been going through the Emagair document.
I have very limited panel space left for ignition management as the ACS key
switch is already installed, Per Emagair, there is a 5A CB for each EI.
I am contemplating powering from the main bus (through a 22 ohm resistor).
For simplicity, a common feeder for both EI's then to a SPDT switch
(Disable power to both EI's) then two NC push button switches for
independent preflight check. No 5A CB's.
As I had assigned one fuse slot to the original plan of one EI/one mag, I
will use it with a 10A fuse. Running the EI's from the main buss assures
they are disabled with the Master Switch.
What am I missing?
I did some fusible link testing that I will publish soon, that was to be
the circuit protection for the EI's. I like the 22 ohm solution better.
...chris
On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 10:07=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:05 PM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>
> ...appreciate your discussion and input!=C3=82 =C3=82
>
> This discussion is the result of the addition of two E-mags to the curren
t
> RV project and reviewing the Emag installation instruction. They call for
a
> circuit breaker in series with the power feeder for the E-mag(s).=C3=82
I am
> using Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build.=C3=82 I am considering
a
> fusible link instead of a circuit breaker as I am running out of panel
> space.=C3=82 Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
>
>
> Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
> ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
> voltage to the EMag is a CONTROL signal for the
> purpose of disabling the mag during engine run-up
> and/or engine shut down. Input current to that
> port is TINY . . . about 0.04 Amps. That feeder
> is an excellent candidate "source impedance
> fault limiting".
>
> Limiting a fault current to feeder friendly
> levels: just splice a 22 ohm, 1-watt resistor
> into the same spot you might use a fusible-link.
> Cover with heat shrink.
>
> A short on that feeder would be limited to
> 600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
> or less . . . no effect on functionality.
>
> It's been a common technique in my toolbox
> in a constellation of designs for decades.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
=========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 12:44=AFPM Christopher Cee Stone
wrote:
> Bob, et al...
>
> Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
> ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
> (SNIP)
>
> A short on that feeder would be limited to
> 600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
> or less . . . no effect on functionality.
>
> It's been a common technique in my toolbox
> in a constellation of designs for decades.
>
>
> I too have been going through the Emagair document.
> I have very limited panel space left for ignition management as the ACS
> key switch is already installed, Per Emagair, there is a 5A CB for each E
I.
> I am contemplating powering from the main bus (through a 22 ohm
> resistor). For simplicity, a common feeder for both EI's then to a SPDT
> switch (Disable power to both EI's) then two NC push button switches for
> independent preflight check. No 5A CB's.
> As I had assigned one fuse slot to the original plan of one EI/one mag, I
> will use it with a 10A fuse. Running the EI's from the main buss assures
> they are disabled with the Master Switch.
> What am I missing?
>
> I did some fusible link testing that I will publish soon, that was to be
> the circuit protection for the EI's. I like the 22 ohm solution better.
>
> ...chris
>
There might be some confusion about Emag power vs control lines. A
resistor in the power feeder probably isn't a great idea.
The fact that Emags 'self power' when the engine is running above a certain
rpm kinda 'muddies the water', but... In general, the reason you (and they)
want engine electrons to come directly from the battery is so the system
operates like a traditional a/c, where shutting off the master has no
effect on the engine. Also in general, it's a bad idea to create 'single
points of failure' in a system. A single fuse for both ignitions means that
any fault in either system *or* a fault in the supply circuit takes out
both ignitions. As I said, the 'self power' feature does muddy the water a
bit on that, but still a bad habit to get into.
(Have I mentioned lately how much I despise the moron that came up with the
idea of 'top posting' back in the last century, resulting in
random order reading? Makes watching 'Memento' seem like a simple,
transparent process.)
Charlie
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 10:07=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 12:05 PM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>>
>> ...appreciate your discussion and input!=C3=82 =C3=82
>>
>> This discussion is the result of the addition of two E-mags to the
>> current RV project and reviewing the Emag installation instruction. They
>> call for a circuit breaker in series with the power feeder for the
>> E-mag(s).=C3=82 I am using Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build.
=C3=82 I am
>> considering a fusible link instead of a circuit breaker as I am running
out
>> of panel space.=C3=82 Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
>>
>>
>> Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
>> ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
>> voltage to the EMag is a CONTROL signal for the
>> purpose of disabling the mag during engine run-up
>> and/or engine shut down. Input current to that
>> port is TINY . . . about 0.04 Amps. That feeder
>> is an excellent candidate "source impedance
>> fault limiting".
>>
>> Limiting a fault current to feeder friendly
>> levels: just splice a 22 ohm, 1-watt resistor
>> into the same spot you might use a fusible-link.
>> Cover with heat shrink.
>>
>> A short on that feeder would be limited to
>> 600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
>> or less . . . no effect on functionality.
>>
>> It's been a common technique in my toolbox
>> in a constellation of designs for decades.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> ////
>> (o o)
>> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
>> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
>> < show me where I'm wrong. >
>> =======================
=========
>>
>> In the interest of creative evolution
>> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
>> on physics and good practice.
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Fusible link test results |
My very basic test rig with somewhat empirical results- no measured data.
Objective: observe failure of fusible links of various lengths when
subjected to a high current short circuit event.
12V wet cell, new, fully charged battery
Knife switch
18 ga tefzel feeder, 20" length x2
PIDG style butt splices (red)
Camera
DUT: 2", 6", 13" lengths 24 ga tefzel FL (M22759/16)
Procedure:
Fabricate fusible links of 2, 6 an 13 inch lengths
Crimp w/ AMP PIDG crimper to
Feeder 20" 18 ga tefzel
Clamp feeders to B+ Knife switch and B- battery terminal
Start camera video
Rabidly close switch
Two inch FL setup
[image: 2InchSetup.jpg]
Crimp tool and butt splice
[image: AmpCrimpTool.jpg]
results:
http://tinyurl.com/mryadbfx
No fiberglas sleeve was used so that failure could be observed.
Comments, questions, critique!
...chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
| From: | "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com> |
I ordered a new battery. I figured its time to replace it anyway and maybe if battery
internal resistance is the cause of the fluctuations Im seeing, that will
clear it up.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512965#512965
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Filling All the Holes in a DB Connector |
Closing the loop...
I spoke w/ Garmin Tech Support and the guy who teaches the Experimental Wir
ing class at the Aircraft Electronics Assn and I stand corrected.=C2- Som
ehow, I got it in my head that you should populate all the pins in a DB con
nector, even if there is no wire attached to it.=C2- Don't know where I g
ot this but it is INCORRECT. - I was mistaken (not the first time;)
I don't think that there is anything wrong with doing this, but it is not a
recommended procedure (as I had originally thought).
It is interesting to note however, that pre-wired harnesses from Spruce com
e with all the pins populated (even the ones without a wire attached).=C2
- This is probably so that you can customize the pre-fabbed harness and a
dd wires specific to your installation.=C2- But it would seem better if S
pruce just populated the ones required for their harness and sent you a bag
of spare pins.=C2- I wonder how many people bother to remove the un-used
pins?
Happy New Year!
-Jeff
.whiting(at)frontier.com> wrote:
Where does Garmin recommend that? =C2-I don=99t recall seeing that
in the G3X installation manual. =C2-I=99ve been an EE for nearly 4
0 years and don=99t recall this being a common practice. =C2-Most w
eather resistant connectors have plugs available specifically for the holes
in the connectors that aren=99t loaded.
Matt
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 21, 2023, at 4:46=AFPM, Jeff Luckey wrot
e:
=EF=BBListers,
Question about DB/D-Sub connectors eg: DB9, DB25, DB37, etc.
Garmin recommends, and it seems to be common practice, that all holes in a
given DB connector have a pin/socket installed, even when there is no wire
connected to that pin.=C2-=C2-
Why is that?
-Jeff
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | skywagon185guy <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
Alternator fluctuations....
By any chance do you have flashing strobes or something like that type of
load..?
That will make your amp meter flicker....
On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 5:43=AFAM Coastflyer
wrote:
> jessejenks72(at)gmail.com>
>
> I ordered a new battery. I figured it=99s time to replace it anyway
and
> maybe if battery internal resistance is the cause of the fluctuations I
=99m
> seeing, that will clear it up.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512965#512965
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power Analysis |
Hello again all
Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical
system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's based on Z13/8,
we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of course
the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160 is internally regulated, and
also has an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel light output,
which I intend to use. The SD-8 has their older PMR1 regulator, so
we've got the external crowbar module and no voltage sensing. I've
drawn these items as shown on their respective install instructions call
for.
As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the endurance
bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup procedure. I had
neglected to think about where the starter was going to get power from,
so the idea has forced an additional switch and relay (a rather robust
one at that) to run the main bus. The battery contactor would be closed
for startup, then the SD-8 operation checked and finally the main bus
would be brought up to begin normal operation.
I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group is
inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I look
at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable panel in
mind, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire panel up with
the main bus, then with the engine running I'd have to close the E-bus
switch, open the battery contactor, dropping out half the instrument
panel. Then check the backup alternator operation, and finally reboot
the rest of the panel again. It just really feels rather clunky to me.
Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept? Is
there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main bus
is up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my system.
I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.
Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
Thanks again
Gerry van Dyk
Tailwind C-GVDZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
At 07:40 AM 12/28/2023, you wrote:
>
>I ordered a new battery. I figured it=99s time
>to replace it anyway and maybe if battery
>internal resistance is the cause of the
>fluctuations I=99m seeing, that will clear it up.
I'm sorry . . . the battery condition that
promotes hyper-active ammeter indications
is LOW internal resistance characteristic
of a battery in excellent condition. If
this is indeed root cause of your observed
condition, a new battery will only make
it worse.
That's only one of the possible causes.
As I mentioned in the former post, I
your airplane were in my shop, I have
the equipment necessary to deduce
the root cause but it's a pretty
detailed investigation. I was pretty
wordy in that missive. Short answer:
I don't think there are any operational
concerns that arise from your
observations.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power Analysis |
Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
the alternator output.
Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
waiting to flatten it
If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main
fails it takes up the load.
For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
bar.
If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
regulator and bring that on line.
Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to
disable the starter.
The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use
one again.
A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Gerry van
Dyk
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power
Analysis
Hello again all
Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical
system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's based on Z13/8,
we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of course
the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160 is internally regulated, and
also has an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel light output,
which I intend to use. The SD-8 has their older PMR1 regulator, so
we've got the external crowbar module and no voltage sensing. I've
drawn these items as shown on their respective install instructions call
for.
As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the endurance
bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup procedure. I had
neglected to think about where the starter was going to get power from,
so the idea has forced an additional switch and relay (a rather robust
one at that) to run the main bus. The battery contactor would be closed
for startup, then the SD-8 operation checked and finally the main bus
would be brought up to begin normal operation.
I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group is
inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I look
at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable panel in
mind, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire panel up with
the main bus, then with the engine running I'd have to close the E-bus
switch, open the battery contactor, dropping out half the instrument
panel. Then check the backup alternator operation, and finally reboot
the rest of the panel again. It just really feels rather clunky to me.
Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept? Is
there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main bus
is up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my system.
I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.
Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
Thanks again
Gerry van Dyk
Tailwind C-GVDZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | PMag power requirements |
At 09:19 PM 12/28/2023, you wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>
>I would answer on Aeroelectric List if I could. I get the postings
>by email but I can't answer due to longstanding technical issues
>with the forum. My next try at a resolution will be a postal letter
>to Matt Dralle.
>
>Re your post 19 at
><http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16781981>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16781981
>
>I'm writing because I believe it is incorrect that the Pmag bus
>power feeder is "about 0.04A". I have no idea where you got that
>number. This feeder is EI power for starting and in case of Pmag internal
You are correct. Emag specs and installation sheets are not
satisfyingly clear on their electrical requirements.
Had to dig around in some older EMag literature
to come up with the attached illustration:
That 0.04A number was for bus supply loads
under normal operation above 1800 rpm or
so on a PMag. Obviously, should the internal alternator
fail (exceedingly unlikely) demands from
ship's bus will be on the order of 0.3 to 0.7A
depending on rpm.
NOTE: the attached figure is exemplar data
captured from EMagair literature from
some years back.
This thread illustrates an oft ignored
hazard for not having manufacturer's
published data. I've not spoken with
the guys for some years. I'll call them
tomorrow to renew acquaintance. I'm
planning on a trip to Ft. Worth in March . . .
will plan on visiting them.
I'll suggest some updating of their
electrical performance data would be
helpful.
In the mean time, I'll update my suggestion
to utilize a "Polyswitch" . . . a solid
state, self-resetting fault limiter.
https://tinyurl.com/yu2tjncu
I've used these in numerous applications over
the years. These are NOT a universal replacement
for fuses/breakers/limiters BUT in this case
I think it will fill the bill. I've added
some to an order from Digikey. I want to
do a bit of bench testing. I'll have some
to 'donate to the cause'.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.
Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing. I'm working from
rev T 1/07/14. Is there a later revision with this switch removed?
Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
As I mentioned, I want to start the engine on the E-bus. I need to
supply power to the starter, but leave the main bus un-powered, in order
to check the function of SD-8. Supplying starting power through the
E-bus seems impractical.
Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
the alternator output.
Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here. I bought the AL
12-E160 alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand
dollars to buy another. I'll have to think about it better, but on the
face of it, having a separate regulator doesn't seem to change how the
alternator is controlled. Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on many occasions
that we want to have definite control of the alternator output with a
switch in the cockpit. Z12/8 shows this switch in the center of the
drawing.
Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus. (I presume
your're talking about the main bus here.)
Perhaps I'm being foolish here. I'm placing an absolute requirement to
check the operation of the backup alternator at the beginning of every
flight. My life will depend on it should the main alternator fail.
With the main bus and main alternator connected directly to the battery
contactor they will be running at startup. As yet I don't see a way to
check the backup alternator operation with the main's running. I'd like
to do so without turning half the panel on-off-on during startup.
Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawing 504-500,
and they provide it in the kit. What would be the reason to remove it?
There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
waiting to flatten it
Quite right, and this duplicates what's shown on Z13-8. They are a
couple of conveniences, loading the baggage compartment, charging a
phone etc, without having to turn on the battery master and it's
relatively large current draw. In building my panel, all switches will
be down=off, and they're all in two rows so visually obvious when left
on. I'll have to have a quick scan of the panel when leaving the
airplane, and if I flatten the battery by mistake, my fault.
If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main
fails it takes up the load.
I presume you are making another case for removing the backup alt
switch. Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well taken.
For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
bar.
I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution to
check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.
If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
regulator and bring that on line.
I think we've covered this already. In order to start the engine I need
to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the main bus
and main alt online. I could move the starter wire to the always-hot
side of the battery contactor, so the mains are still inop, but with
that wire permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that, it violates the
idea of making the electrical system as inert as possible in a forced
landing. Again, I don't see the difference between an externally or
internally regulated alternator. The red wire to lead 1 on the alt
connector is the equivalent of the A wire on an external regulator, the
jumper is the same as one to the S wire, and the F wire is internal.
Peter, writing this is making me think about separating the main alt
control to a separate switch. Let me think that through a bit and I'll
report back later.
Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to
disable the starter.
Interesting, I'll think that out as well.
The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use
one again.
Yes, I believe it is necessary. 8 amps will not power the entire panel,
so the load shedding is still valid. Incidentally, I discovered on the
SD-8 literature that a Lycoming will need to run at 2500 rpm to get the
full 8 amps out of the SD-8. it's looking like about 6.8 amps at 2300
rpm. Your suggestion will mean both main and E-bus need to be switched
on for normal operations. Bob has made note on many of his drawings
that "all buses are on when the main is on". I've had that in mind when
drawing this up. Having the E-bus switched on for normal ops means the
backup alternator is always running, though as you've suggested it can
be set lower than the main, and loaf along in the background. I need to
get my head around this idea.
A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
That's a whoops, should have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on
there.
Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
Yes, I do agree here. I was hoping the 'alt out light' function of the
main alternator would be a 'low voltage monitor' as B&C does on their
newer AVC regulator. After exchanging a couple of emails with Tim at
Plane Power, it indeed only sees the output within the alternator,
nothing outside. I've already got the Dynon EMS with all the engine
sensors, so it makes some sense to use what I've got. My thinking is if
it becomes annoying I can add the separate voltage monitoring system
after the fact. Tim at PP did mention that he regularly sees OBAM guys
using the EFIS for voltage monitoring, and all too often they've got
parameters set way too stringent, and get many nuisance warnings. As
yet I haven't investigated what parameters and settings I can work with,
so the external LV warning is always on the table.
Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter. It's very useful to think
through the questions and comments.
Cheers
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AM
Subject RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
Power Analysis
>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>
>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>
>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
>the alternator output.
>
>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
>
>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>
>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
>waiting to flatten it
>
>
>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>main fails it takes up the load.
>
>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
>bar.
>
>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
>switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
>regulator and bring that on line.
>
>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
>from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to
>disable the starter.
>
>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
>the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
>need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
>use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
>directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not
>use one again.
>
>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>
>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
>It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>
>
>Peter
>
>
>From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> On Behalf Of Gerry van
>Dyk
>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
>To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
>Power Analysis
>
>
>Hello again all
>
>Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical
>system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's based on Z13/8,
>we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of course
>the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160 is internally regulated, and
>also has an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel light output,
>which I intend to use. The SD-8 has their older PMR1 regulator, so
>we've got the external crowbar module and no voltage sensing. I've
>drawn these items as shown on their respective install instructions
>call for.
>
>
>As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the endurance
>bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup procedure. I had
>neglected to think about where the starter was going to get power from,
>so the idea has forced an additional switch and relay (a rather robust
>one at that) to run the main bus. The battery contactor would be
>closed for startup, then the SD-8 operation checked and finally the
>main bus would be brought up to begin normal operation.
>
>
>I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group is
>inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I look
>at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable panel
>in mind, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire panel up
>with the main bus, then with the engine running I'd have to close the
>E-bus switch, open the battery contactor, dropping out half the
>instrument panel. Then check the backup alternator operation, and
>finally reboot the rest of the panel again. It just really feels
>rather clunky to me.
>
>
>Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept?
>Is there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main
>bus is up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my system.
>
>
>I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.
>Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
>
>
>Thanks again
>
>Gerry van Dyk
>
>Tailwind C-GVDZ
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
My very basic test rig with somewhat empirical results- no measured data.
Objective: observe failure of fusible links of various lengths when
subjected to a high current short circuit event.
12V wet cell, new, fully charged battery
Knife switch
18 ga tefzel feeder, 20" length x2
PIDG style butt splices (red)
Camera
DUT: 2", 6", 13" lengths 24 ga tefzel FL (M22759/16)
Procedure:
Fabricate fusible links of 2, 6 an 13 inch lengths
Crimp w/ AMP PIDG crimper to
Feeder 20" 18 ga tefzel
Clamp feeders to B+ Knife switch and B- battery terminal
Start camera video
Rabidly close switch
Two inch FL setup
[image: 2InchSetup.jpg]
Crimp tool and butt splice
[image: AmpCrimpTool.jpg]
results:
http://tinyurl.com/mryadbfx
No fiberglas sleeve was used so that failure could be observed.
Comments, questions, critique!
...chris
On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:02=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:31 AM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>
> Back to the original question of the length of a fusible link. That is th
e
> length of smaller gauge wire comprising=C3=82 the 'link'.
>
>
> Had to do some 'digging' to see if I could
> find where that 3-6 inch citation came from.
> No joy.
>
> Actually, 6" is the minimum. 9" is more typical,
> 10" not unheard of. 3" is too short . . .
>
> . . . and INSULATED with material resistant to
> energy released by clearing the fault.
>
> See: http://tinyurl.com/4vnzdjpc
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
=========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
Hi Chris;
Hi All;
That's a great demonstration Chris.
And it evidences exactly why I would not use fusible links in an aircraft,
or automobile for that matter.
There's smoke, there's fire, and there's molten metal!
With most fuses the burned wire, smoke, and fire are contained.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Christopher Cee Stone" <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2023 7:30:01 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fusible links
My very basic test rig with somewhat empirical results- no measured data.
Objective: observe failure of fusible links of various lengths when subject
ed to a high current short circuit event.
12V wet cell, new, fully charged battery
Knife switch
18 ga tefzel feeder, 20" length x2
PIDG style butt splices (red)
Camera
DUT: 2", 6", 13" lengths 24 ga tefzel FL (M22759/16)
Procedure:
Fabricate fusible links of 2, 6 an 13 inch lengths
Crimp w/ AMP PIDG crimper to
Feeder 20" 18 ga tefzel
Clamp feeders to B+ Knife switch and B- battery terminal
Start camera video
Rabidly close switch
Two inch FL setup
Crimp tool and butt splice
results:
[ http://tinyurl.com/mryadbfx | http://tinyurl.com/mryadbfx ]
No fiberglas sleeve was used so that failure could be observed.
Comments, questions, critique!
...chris
On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:02 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < [ mailto:nuckolls
.bob(at)aeroelectric.com | nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com ] > wrote:
At 09:31 AM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
BQ_BEGIN
Back to the original question of the length of a fusible link. That is the
length of smaller gauge wire comprising=C3=82 the 'link'.
Had to do some 'digging' to see if I could
find where that 3-6 inch citation came from.
No joy.
Actually, 6" is the minimum. 9" is more typical,
10" not unheard of. 3" is too short . . .
. . . and INSULATED with material resistant to
energy released by clearing the fault.
See: [ http://tinyurl.com/4vnzdjpc |
http://tinyurl.com/4vnzdjpc
]
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
BQ_END
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
| From: | "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com> |
Thats ok Bob, I wanted to replace the battery anyway. I do appreciate your analysis.
I took some video yesterday, still with the old battery.
https://youtu.be/1TluvrVBLJo?si=IkUwgLP910Cht7Kt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512976#512976
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
At 11:44 AM 12/29/2023, you wrote:
>
>That=99s ok Bob, I wanted to replace the battery
>anyway. I do appreciate your analysis.
>I took some video yesterday, still with the old battery.
>
>https://youtu.be/1TluvrVBLJo?si=IkUwgLP910Cht7Kt
That's interesting. The period of oscillation
is too long to be a regulation issue especially
since the voltage is not similarly afflicted.
It will be interesting to see if it persists
with the new battery.
How old is the present battery? Have
you recently cap-checked it?
It's a strong suggestion of some accessory
load . . . but what? This began after
installation of the new alternator?
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
Hello again all
Peter I'll follow-up here on those couple of points...
I've attached the latest revision to my architecture. Thinking about
what you've suggested, separating the main alternator to it's own
switch, I've done so, and it cleans up both the drawing and the
electrical system quite a bit. Effectively what we've done is separate
the "battery / alt / DC power" switch shown on the Z13/8 drawing into
two. I've got a keyed switch which I want for some basic theft
deterrence, and then the main alt switch.
In operation we'll turn on the main bus, which will mean the entire
panel will be up. The big consumers will of course be off, pitot heat,
exterior lighting, AP servos, boost fuel pump, and the radios will be in
passive receive mode. At this point we'd close the ebus / aux alt
switch and start the engine. Dynon says this will not bring down the
EFIS's so with the EMS operating we should see the aux alternator bump
the voltage, I'd flip the switch on and off if need be to see this
change. Satisfied that the aux alternator is operating we'll then bring
the main alternator online and turn the e-bus / aux alt switch off. Or
I may come around on leaving it on for normal operations.
For alternator-out condition: turn the e-bus / aux alt switch on, open
the main battery switch, dropping out the battery contactor and therefor
the main bus. If the main alt has failed or thrown the belt, it won't
matter much if we turn off the main alt switch or not.
What are your thoughts on this layout? I known I haven't used all your
suggestions, I hope you take no offense to it, I think some were moving
away from the original Z13/8 philosophy which I do rather agree with.
Best regards
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-29 8:12:00 AM
Subject Re[2]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
Power Analysis
>Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.
>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing. I'm working from
>rev T 1/07/14. Is there a later revision with this switch removed?
>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>As I mentioned, I want to start the engine on the E-bus. I need to
>supply power to the starter, but leave the main bus un-powered, in
>order to check the function of SD-8. Supplying starting power through
>the E-bus seems impractical.
>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
>the alternator output.
>Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here. I bought the AL
>12-E160 alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand
>dollars to buy another. I'll have to think about it better, but on the
>face of it, having a separate regulator doesn't seem to change how the
>alternator is controlled. Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on many occasions
>that we want to have definite control of the alternator output with a
>switch in the cockpit. Z12/8 shows this switch in the center of the
>drawing.
>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus. (I
>presume your're talking about the main bus here.)
>Perhaps I'm being foolish here. I'm placing an absolute requirement to
>check the operation of the backup alternator at the beginning of every
>flight. My life will depend on it should the main alternator fail.
>With the main bus and main alternator connected directly to the battery
>contactor they will be running at startup. As yet I don't see a way to
>check the backup alternator operation with the main's running. I'd
>like to do so without turning half the panel on-off-on during startup.
>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawing 504-500,
>and they provide it in the kit. What would be the reason to remove it?
>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
>waiting to flatten it
>Quite right, and this duplicates what's shown on Z13-8. They are a
>couple of conveniences, loading the baggage compartment, charging a
>phone etc, without having to turn on the battery master and it's
>relatively large current draw. In building my panel, all switches will
>be down=off, and they're all in two rows so visually obvious when left
>on. I'll have to have a quick scan of the panel when leaving the
>airplane, and if I flatten the battery by mistake, my fault.
>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>main fails it takes up the load.
>I presume you are making another case for removing the backup alt
>switch. Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well
>taken.
>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
>bar.
>I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution to
>check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.
>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
>switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
>regulator and bring that on line.
>I think we've covered this already. In order to start the engine I
>need to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the
>main bus and main alt online. I could move the starter wire to the
>always-hot side of the battery contactor, so the mains are still inop,
>but with that wire permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that, it
>violates the idea of making the electrical system as inert as possible
>in a forced landing. Again, I don't see the difference between an
>externally or internally regulated alternator. The red wire to lead 1
>on the alt connector is the equivalent of the A wire on an external
>regulator, the jumper is the same as one to the S wire, and the F wire
>is internal.
>Peter, writing this is making me think about separating the main alt
>control to a separate switch. Let me think that through a bit and I'll
>report back later.
>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
>from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to
>disable the starter.
>Interesting, I'll think that out as well.
>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
>the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
>need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
>use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
>directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not
>use one again.
>Yes, I believe it is necessary. 8 amps will not power the entire
>panel, so the load shedding is still valid. Incidentally, I discovered
>on the SD-8 literature that a Lycoming will need to run at 2500 rpm to
>get the full 8 amps out of the SD-8. it's looking like about 6.8 amps
>at 2300 rpm. Your suggestion will mean both main and E-bus need to be
>switched on for normal operations. Bob has made note on many of his
>drawings that "all buses are on when the main is on". I've had that in
>mind when drawing this up. Having the E-bus switched on for normal ops
>means the backup alternator is always running, though as you've
>suggested it can be set lower than the main, and loaf along in the
>background. I need to get my head around this idea.
>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>That's a whoops, should have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on
>there.
>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
>It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>Yes, I do agree here. I was hoping the 'alt out light' function of the
>main alternator would be a 'low voltage monitor' as B&C does on their
>newer AVC regulator. After exchanging a couple of emails with Tim at
>Plane Power, it indeed only sees the output within the alternator,
>nothing outside. I've already got the Dynon EMS with all the engine
>sensors, so it makes some sense to use what I've got. My thinking is
>if it becomes annoying I can add the separate voltage monitoring system
>after the fact. Tim at PP did mention that he regularly sees OBAM guys
>using the EFIS for voltage monitoring, and all too often they've got
>parameters set way too stringent, and get many nuisance warnings. As
>yet I haven't investigated what parameters and settings I can work
>with, so the external LV warning is always on the table.
>
>Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter. It's very useful to think
>through the questions and comments.
>
>Cheers
>Gerry
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Date 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AM
>Subject RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
>Power Analysis
>
>>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>>
>>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>>
>>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
>>the alternator output.
>>
>>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
>>
>>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>>
>>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
>>waiting to flatten it
>>
>>
>>
>>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>>main fails it takes up the load.
>>
>>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
>>bar.
>>
>>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
>>switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
>>regulator and bring that on line.
>>
>>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
>>from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole
>>to disable the starter.
>>
>>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
>>the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
>>need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
>>use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
>>directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not
>>use one again.
>>
>>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>>
>>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
>>It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>>
>>
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> On Behalf Of Gerry van
>>Dyk
>>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
>>To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
>>Power Analysis
>>
>>
>>
>>Hello again all
>>
>>Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical
>>system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's based on
>>Z13/8, we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of
>>course the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160 is internally
>>regulated, and also has an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel
>>light output, which I intend to use. The SD-8 has their older PMR1
>>regulator, so we've got the external crowbar module and no voltage
>>sensing. I've drawn these items as shown on their respective install
>>instructions call for.
>>
>>
>>
>>As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the
>>endurance bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup
>>procedure. I had neglected to think about where the starter was going
>>to get power from, so the idea has forced an additional switch and
>>relay (a rather robust one at that) to run the main bus. The battery
>>contactor would be closed for startup, then the SD-8 operation checked
>>and finally the main bus would be brought up to begin normal
>>operation.
>>
>>
>>
>>I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group
>>is inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I
>>look at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable
>>panel in mind, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire
>>panel up with the main bus, then with the engine running I'd have to
>>close the E-bus switch, open the battery contactor, dropping out half
>>the instrument panel. Then check the backup alternator operation, and
>>finally reboot the rest of the panel again. It just really feels
>>rather clunky to me.
>>
>>
>>
>>Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept?
>>Is there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main
>>bus is up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my system.
>>
>>
>>
>>I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.
>>Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks again
>>
>>Gerry van Dyk
>>
>>Tailwind C-GVDZ
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 11:47=AFAM Coastflyer wrote:
> jessejenks72(at)gmail.com>
>
> That=99s ok Bob, I wanted to replace the battery anyway. I do appre
ciate
> your analysis.
> I took some video yesterday, still with the old battery.
>
> https://youtu.be/1TluvrVBLJo?si=IkUwgLP910Cht7Kt
>
> I'd suggest taking a long hard look at the circuit between your current
shunt and the engine monitor. If it's a resistance type shunt and you have
the recommended protective fuses in the sense lines (or a flaky connection
anywhere in either line), then you will see wildly varying current
displayed with no actual changes in current. My Dynon monitor was installed
with glass fuses in those lines, and it does exactly what yours is doing.
Reaching under the panel and wiggling inline fuse holders will
(temporarily) make the symptom go away.
Charlie
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and |
Power Analysis
Gerry, before looking at the details what are you planning to use the
airplane for? What do you want the system to do?
Long range IFR touring, medium range VFR/occasional IFR touring and VFR
hamburger runs, something else? Peter
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023, 19:27 Gerry van Dyk, wrote:
> Hello again all
> Peter I'll follow-up here on those couple of points...
>
> I've attached the latest revision to my architecture. Thinking about wha
t
> you've suggested, separating the main alternator to it's own switch, I've
> done so, and it cleans up both the drawing and the electrical system quit
e
> a bit. Effectively what we've done is separate the "battery / alt / DC
> power" switch shown on the Z13/8 drawing into two. I've got a keyed swit
ch
> which I want for some basic theft deterrence, and then the main alt switc
h.
>
> In operation we'll turn on the main bus, which will mean the entire panel
> will be up. The big consumers will of course be off, pitot heat, exterio
r
> lighting, AP servos, boost fuel pump, and the radios will be in passive
> receive mode. At this point we'd close the ebus / aux alt switch and sta
rt
> the engine. Dynon says this will not bring down the EFIS's so with the EM
S
> operating we should see the aux alternator bump the voltage, I'd flip the
> switch on and off if need be to see this change. Satisfied that the aux
> alternator is operating we'll then bring the main alternator online and
> turn the e-bus / aux alt switch off. Or I may come around on leaving it
on
> for normal operations.
>
> For alternator-out condition: turn the e-bus / aux alt switch on, open th
e
> main battery switch, dropping out the battery contactor and therefor the
> main bus. If the main alt has failed or thrown the belt, it won't matter
> much if we turn off the main alt switch or not.
>
> What are your thoughts on this layout? I known I haven't used all your
> suggestions, I hope you take no offense to it, I think some were moving
> away from the original Z13/8 philosophy which I do rather agree with.
>
> Best regards
> Gerry
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca>
> To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date 2023-12-29 8:12:00 AM
> Subject Re[2]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
> Power Analysis
>
> Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.
> Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
> because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing. I'm working from rev
> T 1/07/14. Is there a later revision with this switch removed?
> Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
> As I mentioned, I want to start the engine on the E-bus. I need to suppl
y
> power to the starter, but leave the main bus un-powered, in order to chec
k
> the function of SD-8. Supplying starting power through the E-bus seems
> impractical.
> Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch the
> alternator output.
> Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here. I bought the AL 12-E160
> alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand dollars to bu
y
> another. I'll have to think about it better, but on the face of it, havi
ng
> a separate regulator doesn't seem to change how the alternator is
> controlled. Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on many occasions that we want to
> have definite control of the alternator output with a switch in the
> cockpit. Z12/8 shows this switch in the center of the drawing.
> Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus. (I presume
> your're talking about the main bus here.)
> Perhaps I'm being foolish here. I'm placing an absolute requirement to
> check the operation of the backup alternator at the beginning of every
> flight. My life will depend on it should the main alternator fail. With
> the main bus and main alternator connected directly to the battery
> contactor they will be running at startup. As yet I don't see a way to
> check the backup alternator operation with the main's running. I'd like
to
> do so without turning half the panel on-off-on during startup.
> Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
> This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawing 504-500, an
d
> they provide it in the kit. What would be the reason to remove it?
> There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
> waiting to flatten it
> Quite right, and this duplicates what's shown on Z13-8. They are a coupl
e
> of conveniences, loading the baggage compartment, charging a phone etc,
> without having to turn on the battery master and it's relatively large
> current draw. In building my panel, all switches will be down=off, and
> they're all in two rows so visually obvious when left on. I'll have to
> have a quick scan of the panel when leaving the airplane, and if I flatte
n
> the battery by mistake, my fault.
> If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main alternato
r
> it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main fails it
> takes up the load.
> I presume you are making another case for removing the backup alt switch.
> Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well taken.
> For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus ba
r.
> I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution to
> check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.
> If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
> switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator regulato
r
> and bring that on line.
> I think we've covered this already. In order to start the engine I need
> to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the main bus a
nd
> main alt online. I could move the starter wire to the always-hot side of
> the battery contactor, so the mains are still inop, but with that wire
> permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that, it violates the idea of making
> the electrical system as inert as possible in a forced landing. Again, I
> don't see the difference between an externally or internally regulated
> alternator. The red wire to lead 1 on the alt connector is the equivalen
t
> of the A wire on an external regulator, the jumper is the same as one to
> the S wire, and the F wire is internal.
> Peter, writing this is making me think about separating the main alt
> control to a separate switch. Let me think that through a bit and I'll
> report back later.
> Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly from
> the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to disabl
e
> the starter.
> Interesting, I'll think that out as well.
> The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop th
e
> voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you need
> that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus use a
> large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus directly fro
m
> the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use one again.
> Yes, I believe it is necessary. 8 amps will not power the entire panel,
> so the load shedding is still valid. Incidentally, I discovered on the
> SD-8 literature that a Lycoming will need to run at 2500 rpm to get the
> full 8 amps out of the SD-8. it's looking like about 6.8 amps at 2300
> rpm. Your suggestion will mean both main and E-bus need to be switched o
n
> for normal operations. Bob has made note on many of his drawings that "a
ll
> buses are on when the main is on". I've had that in mind when drawing th
is
> up. Having the E-bus switched on for normal ops means the backup
> alternator is always running, though as you've suggested it can be set
> lower than the main, and loaf along in the background. I need to get my
> head around this idea.
> A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
> That's a whoops, should have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on ther
e.
> Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful. It
> is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
> Yes, I do agree here. I was hoping the 'alt out light' function of the
> main alternator would be a 'low voltage monitor' as B&C does on their new
er
> AVC regulator. After exchanging a couple of emails with Tim at Plane
> Power, it indeed only sees the output within the alternator, nothing
> outside. I've already got the Dynon EMS with all the engine sensors, so
it
> makes some sense to use what I've got. My thinking is if it becomes
> annoying I can add the separate voltage monitoring system after the fact.
> Tim at PP did mention that he regularly sees OBAM guys using the EFIS for
> voltage monitoring, and all too often they've got parameters set way too
> stringent, and get many nuisance warnings. As yet I haven't investigated
> what parameters and settings I can work with, so the external LV warning
is
> always on the table.
>
> Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter. It's very useful to think
> through the questions and comments.
>
> Cheers
> Gerry
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
> To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AM
> Subject RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
> Power Analysis
>
> Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>
> Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>
> Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch the
> alternator output.
>
> Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
>
> Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>
> There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
> waiting to flatten it
>
>
> If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main alternato
r
> it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main fails it
> takes up the load.
>
> For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus ba
r.
>
> If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
> switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator regulato
r
> and bring that on line.
>
> Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly from
> the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to disabl
e
> the starter.
>
> The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop th
e
> voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you need
> that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus use a
> large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus directly fro
m
> the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use one again.
>
> A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>
> Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful. It
> is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Gerry van Dy
k
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
> Power Analysis
>
>
> Hello again all
>
> Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical
> system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's based on Z13/8,
> we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of course the
> B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160 is internally regulated, and also h
as
> an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel light output, which I intend
> to use. The SD-8 has their older PMR1 regulator, so we've got the extern
al
> crowbar module and no voltage sensing. I've drawn these items as shown o
n
> their respective install instructions call for.
>
>
> As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the endurance
> bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup procedure. I had
> neglected to think about where the starter was going to get power from, s
o
> the idea has forced an additional switch and relay (a rather robust one a
t
> that) to run the main bus. The battery contactor would be closed for
> startup, then the SD-8 operation checked and finally the main bus would b
e
> brought up to begin normal operation.
>
>
> I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group is
> inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I look at
> the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable panel in min
d,
> it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire panel up with the ma
in
> bus, then with the engine running I'd have to close the E-bus switch, ope
n
> the battery contactor, dropping out half the instrument panel. Then chec
k
> the backup alternator operation, and finally reboot the rest of the panel
> again. It just really feels rather clunky to me.
>
>
> Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept? Is
> there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main bus is
> up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my system.
>
>
> I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.
> Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
>
>
> Thanks again
>
> Gerry van Dyk
>
> Tailwind C-GVDZ
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
It will be for mainly VFR touring and vacation, IFR Training and
eventually IFR travel though VFR will be preferred over IFR. The VFR
weekend breakfast flyins and hambergers will likely be the bulk of
service. I want the personal rating and currency and the airplane's IFR
capability to be there the 2 or 3 time per year when it's likely to be
required. Like an annual pilgrimage to Osh. I don't want to be
stranded for weather that's overcast but otherwise fairly benign.
Does that answer the question?
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
To "Aeroelectric List (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)"
Date 2023-12-29 12:44:19 PM
Subject Re: Re[3]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
and Power Analysis
>Gerry, before looking at the details what are you planning to use the
>airplane for? What do you want the system to do?
>Long range IFR touring, medium range VFR/occasional IFR touring and VFR
>hamburger runs, something else? Peter
>
>On Fri, 29 Dec 2023, 19:27 Gerry van Dyk,
>wrote:
>>Hello again all
>>Peter I'll follow-up here on those couple of points...
>>
>>I've attached the latest revision to my architecture. Thinking about
>>what you've suggested, separating the main alternator to it's own
>>switch, I've done so, and it cleans up both the drawing and the
>>electrical system quite a bit. Effectively what we've done is
>>separate the "battery / alt / DC power" switch shown on the Z13/8
>>drawing into two. I've got a keyed switch which I want for some basic
>>theft deterrence, and then the main alt switch.
>>
>>In operation we'll turn on the main bus, which will mean the entire
>>panel will be up. The big consumers will of course be off, pitot
>>heat, exterior lighting, AP servos, boost fuel pump, and the radios
>>will be in passive receive mode. At this point we'd close the ebus /
>>aux alt switch and start the engine. Dynon says this will not bring
>>down the EFIS's so with the EMS operating we should see the aux
>>alternator bump the voltage, I'd flip the switch on and off if need be
>>to see this change. Satisfied that the aux alternator is operating
>>we'll then bring the main alternator online and turn the e-bus / aux
>>alt switch off. Or I may come around on leaving it on for normal
>>operations.
>>
>>For alternator-out condition: turn the e-bus / aux alt switch on, open
>>the main battery switch, dropping out the battery contactor and
>>therefor the main bus. If the main alt has failed or thrown the belt,
>>it won't matter much if we turn off the main alt switch or not.
>>
>>What are your thoughts on this layout? I known I haven't used all
>>your suggestions, I hope you take no offense to it, I think some were
>>moving away from the original Z13/8 philosophy which I do rather agree
>>with.
>>
>>Best regards
>>Gerry
>>
>>
>>------ Original Message ------
>>From "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca>
>>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>Date 2023-12-29 8:12:00 AM
>>Subject Re[2]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
>>and Power Analysis
>>
>>>Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.
>>>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>>>because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing. I'm working from
>>>rev T 1/07/14. Is there a later revision with this switch removed?
>>>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>>>As I mentioned, I want to start the engine on the E-bus. I need to
>>>supply power to the starter, but leave the main bus un-powered, in
>>>order to check the function of SD-8. Supplying starting power
>>>through the E-bus seems impractical.
>>>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
>>>the alternator output.
>>>Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here. I bought the AL
>>>12-E160 alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand
>>>dollars to buy another. I'll have to think about it better, but on
>>>the face of it, having a separate regulator doesn't seem to change
>>>how the alternator is controlled. Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on many
>>>occasions that we want to have definite control of the alternator
>>>output with a switch in the cockpit. Z12/8 shows this switch in the
>>>center of the drawing.
>>>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus. (I
>>>presume your're talking about the main bus here.)
>>>Perhaps I'm being foolish here. I'm placing an absolute requirement
>>>to check the operation of the backup alternator at the beginning of
>>>every flight. My life will depend on it should the main alternator
>>>fail. With the main bus and main alternator connected directly to
>>>the battery contactor they will be running at startup. As yet I
>>>don't see a way to check the backup alternator operation with the
>>>main's running. I'd like to do so without turning half the panel
>>>on-off-on during startup.
>>>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>>>This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawing
>>>504-500, and they provide it in the kit. What would be the reason to
>>>remove it?
>>>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
>>>waiting to flatten it
>>>Quite right, and this duplicates what's shown on Z13-8. They are a
>>>couple of conveniences, loading the baggage compartment, charging a
>>>phone etc, without having to turn on the battery master and it's
>>>relatively large current draw. In building my panel, all switches
>>>will be down=off, and they're all in two rows so visually obvious
>>>when left on. I'll have to have a quick scan of the panel when
>>>leaving the airplane, and if I flatten the battery by mistake, my
>>>fault.
>>>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>>>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>>>main fails it takes up the load.
>>>I presume you are making another case for removing the backup alt
>>>switch. Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well
>>>taken.
>>>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the
>>>bus bar.
>>>I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution to
>>>check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.
>>>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially
>>>only switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
>>>regulator and bring that on line.
>>>I think we've covered this already. In order to start the engine I
>>>need to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the
>>>main bus and main alt online. I could move the starter wire to the
>>>always-hot side of the battery contactor, so the mains are still
>>>inop, but with that wire permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that,
>>>it violates the idea of making the electrical system as inert as
>>>possible in a forced landing. Again, I don't see the difference
>>>between an externally or internally regulated alternator. The red
>>>wire to lead 1 on the alt connector is the equivalent of the A wire
>>>on an external regulator, the jumper is the same as one to the S
>>>wire, and the F wire is internal.
>>>Peter, writing this is making me think about separating the main alt
>>>control to a separate switch. Let me think that through a bit and
>>>I'll report back later.
>>>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
>>>from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole
>>>to disable the starter.
>>>Interesting, I'll think that out as well.
>>>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always
>>>drop the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but
>>>do you need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the
>>>main bus use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the
>>>essential bus directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode
>>>and would not use one again.
>>>Yes, I believe it is necessary. 8 amps will not power the entire
>>>panel, so the load shedding is still valid. Incidentally, I
>>>discovered on the SD-8 literature that a Lycoming will need to run at
>>>2500 rpm to get the full 8 amps out of the SD-8. it's looking like
>>>about 6.8 amps at 2300 rpm. Your suggestion will mean both main and
>>>E-bus need to be switched on for normal operations. Bob has made
>>>note on many of his drawings that "all buses are on when the main is
>>>on". I've had that in mind when drawing this up. Having the E-bus
>>>switched on for normal ops means the backup alternator is always
>>>running, though as you've suggested it can be set lower than the
>>>main, and loaf along in the background. I need to get my head around
>>>this idea.
>>>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>>>That's a whoops, should have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on
>>>there.
>>>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is
>>>useful. It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>>>Yes, I do agree here. I was hoping the 'alt out light' function of
>>>the main alternator would be a 'low voltage monitor' as B&C does on
>>>their newer AVC regulator. After exchanging a couple of emails with
>>>Tim at Plane Power, it indeed only sees the output within the
>>>alternator, nothing outside. I've already got the Dynon EMS with all
>>>the engine sensors, so it makes some sense to use what I've got. My
>>>thinking is if it becomes annoying I can add the separate voltage
>>>monitoring system after the fact. Tim at PP did mention that he
>>>regularly sees OBAM guys using the EFIS for voltage monitoring, and
>>>all too often they've got parameters set way too stringent, and get
>>>many nuisance warnings. As yet I haven't investigated what
>>>parameters and settings I can work with, so the external LV warning
>>>is always on the table.
>>>
>>>Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter. It's very useful to think
>>>through the questions and comments.
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>>Gerry
>>>
>>>
>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
>>>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>Date 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AM
>>>Subject RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
>>>Power Analysis
>>>
>>>>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>>>>
>>>>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>>>>
>>>>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to
>>>>switch the alternator output.
>>>>
>>>>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
>>>>
>>>>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>>>>
>>>>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery
>>>>just waiting to flatten it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>>>>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>>>>main fails it takes up the load.
>>>>
>>>>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the
>>>>bus bar.
>>>>
>>>>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially
>>>>only switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main
>>>>alternator regulator and bring that on line.
>>>>
>>>>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
>>>>from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole
>>>>to disable the starter.
>>>>
>>>>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always
>>>>drop the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but
>>>>do you need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the
>>>>main bus use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the
>>>>essential bus directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode
>>>>and would not use one again.
>>>>
>>>>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>>>>
>>>>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is
>>>>useful. It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>> On Behalf Of Gerry
>>>>van Dyk
>>>>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
>>>>To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
>>>>Power Analysis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hello again all
>>>>
>>>>Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed
>>>>electrical system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's
>>>>based on Z13/8, we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary
>>>>alternator, and of course the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160
>>>>is internally regulated, and also has an internal crowbar system and
>>>>alt-out panel light output, which I intend to use. The SD-8 has
>>>>their older PMR1 regulator, so we've got the external crowbar module
>>>>and no voltage sensing. I've drawn these items as shown on their
>>>>respective install instructions call for.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the
>>>>endurance bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup
>>>>procedure. I had neglected to think about where the starter was
>>>>going to get power from, so the idea has forced an additional switch
>>>>and relay (a rather robust one at that) to run the main bus. The
>>>>battery contactor would be closed for startup, then the SD-8
>>>>operation checked and finally the main bus would be brought up to
>>>>begin normal operation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group
>>>>is inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I
>>>>look at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable
>>>>panel in mind, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire
>>>>panel up with the main bus, then with the engine running I'd have to
>>>>close the E-bus switch, open the battery contactor, dropping out
>>>>half the instrument panel. Then check the backup alternator
>>>>operation, and finally reboot the rest of the panel again. It just
>>>>really feels rather clunky to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept?
>>>> Is there a way to check the backup alternator function while the
>>>>main bus is up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my
>>>>system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good
>>>>review. Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks again
>>>>
>>>>Gerry van Dyk
>>>>
>>>>Tailwind C-GVDZ
>>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
| From: | "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Charlie, I will check out those wires. I dont think I have fuses in them
but will check all the connections. Its possible I could have damaged one of
the connections at the shunt when I was hurriedly removing the cover on the current
limiter (which is right above the shunt) after the original alternator failure.
Bob, I will try isolating all the loads. I think I already tried turning the avionics
master off, and I have turned off all the exterior lighting, but I will
try everything again. It could be the Dynon I could pull the fuse and run it
on its backup battery. Otherwise, there is only the alternator field, battery
solenoid, and elevator trim, and a USB charge outlet. I did unplug my phone,
but will try pulling the fuse.
Yes, the oscillation started when I installed the new alternator. The battery is
5 years old and I havent done a capacity test, and it did get deeply discharged
during the alternator failure flight.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512982#512982
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | M Wilson <mike_tailwind(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and |
Power Analysis
I don't like the key switch.=C2- If you turn it off with the engine runn
ing it could cause a load dump by disconnecting the alternator from the bat
tery.=C2- Use a DPDT key switch to turn off the alternator as well, or I
used a momentary key switch in place of a pushbutton for the starter.=C2-
Not so much for theft protection, but to protect from having some kid (or
adult) accidentally engage the starter at Oshkosh.
andyk(at)eastlink.ca> wrote:
Hello again allPeter I'll follow-up here on those couple of points...
I've attached the latest revision to my architecture.=C2- Thinking about
what you've suggested, separating the main alternator to it's own switch, I
've done so, and it cleans up both the drawing and the electrical system qu
ite a bit.=C2- Effectively what we've done is separate the "battery / alt
/ DC power" switch shown on the Z13/8 drawing into two.=C2- I've got a k
eyed switch which I want for some basic theft deterrence, and then the main
alt switch.
In operation we'll turn on the main bus, which will mean the entire panel w
ill be up.=C2- The big consumers will of course be off, pitot heat, exter
ior lighting, AP servos, boost fuel pump, and the radios will be in passive
receive mode.=C2- At this point we'd close the ebus / aux alt switch and
start the engine. Dynon says this will not bring down the EFIS's so with t
he EMS operating we should see the aux alternator bump the voltage, I'd fli
p the switch on and off if need be to see this change.=C2- Satisfied that
the aux alternator is operating we'll then bring the main alternator onlin
e and turn the e-bus / aux alt switch off.=C2- Or I may come around on le
aving it on for normal operations.
For alternator-out condition: turn the e-bus / aux alt switch on, open the
main battery switch, dropping out the battery contactor and therefor the ma
in bus.=C2- If the main alt has failed or thrown the belt, it won't matte
r much if we turn off the main alt switch or not.
What are your thoughts on this layout?=C2- I known I haven't used all you
r suggestions, I hope you take no offense to it, I think some were moving a
way from the original Z13/8 philosophy which I do rather agree with.
Best regardsGerry
------ Original Message ------From "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.c
a>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comDate 2023-12-29 8:12:00 AMSubject Re[2]
: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power Analysis
Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alter
nator?because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing.=C2- I'm working
from rev T 1/07/14.=C2- Is there a later revision with this switch remov
ed?Why switch battery power to the bus twice?As I mentioned, I want to star
t the engine on the E-bus.=C2- I need to supply power to the starter, but
leave the main bus un-powered, in order to check the function of SD-8.=C2
- Supplying starting power through the E-bus seems impractical.Use an ext
ernally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch the alternator
output.Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here.=C2- I bought the
AL 12-E160 alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand doll
ars to buy another.=C2- I'll have to think about it better, but on the fa
ce of it, having a separate regulator doesn't seem to change how the altern
ator is controlled.=C2- Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on many occasions that
we want to have definite control of the alternator output with a switch in
the cockpit.=C2- Z12/8 shows this switch in the center of the drawing.Pr
ovide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.=C2- (I presume
your're talking about the main bus here.)Perhaps I'm being foolish here.
=C2- I'm placing an absolute requirement to check the operation of the ba
ckup alternator at the beginning of every flight.=C2- My life will depend
on it should the main alternator fail.=C2- With the main bus and main al
ternator connected directly to the battery contactor they will be running a
t startup.=C2- As yet I don't see a way to check the backup alternator op
eration with the main's running.=C2- I'd like to do so without turning ha
lf the panel on-off-on during startup.Do not use a diode in the feed to the
essential bus.This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawin
g 504-500, and they provide it in the kit.=C2- What would be the reason t
o remove it?There are a number of services connected directly to the batter
y just waiting to flatten itQuite right, and this duplicates what'
s shown on Z13-8.=C2- They are a couple of conveniences, loading the bagg
age compartment, charging a phone etc, without having to turn on the batter
y master and it's relatively large current draw.=C2- In building my panel
, all switches will be down=off, and they're all in two rows so visually
obvious when left on.=C2- I'll have to have a quick scan of the panel whe
n leaving the airplane, and if I flatten the battery by mistake, my fault.I
f the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main alternator i
t will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main fails it takes
up the load.I presume you are making another case for removing the backup
alt switch.=C2- Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well
taken.For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bu
s bar.I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution to
check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.If you use an ext
ernally regulated main alternator then initially only switch on the SD8 on
start up. Then power up the main alternator regulator and bring that on lin
e.I think we've covered this already.=C2- In order to start the engine I
need to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the main bu
s and main alt online.=C2- I could move the starter wire to the always-ho
t side of the battery contactor, so the mains are still inop, but with that
wire permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that, it violates the idea of ma
king the electrical system as inert as possible in a forced landing.=C2-
Again, I don't see the difference between an externally or internally regul
ated alternator.=C2- The red wire to lead 1 on the alt connector is the e
quivalent of the A wire on an external regulator, the jumper is the same as
one to the S wire, and the F wire is internal.Peter, writing this is makin
g me think about separating the main alt control to a separate switch.=C2
- Let me think that through a bit and I'll report back later.Install a sw
itch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly from the battery,
if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to disable the starter.I
nteresting, I'll think that out as well.The large diode in the feed line to
the essential bus will always drop the voltage by an amount. The benefit i
s auto load shedding but do you need that with 2 alternators?=C2-=C2-If
you really want to shed the main bus use a large switch and ensure there i
s a path to the essential bus directly from the battery. I used to have a f
eed diode and would not use one again.Yes, I believe it is necessary.=C2-
8 amps will not power the entire panel, so the load shedding is still vali
d.=C2- Incidentally, I discovered on the SD-8 literature that a Lycoming
will need to run at 2500 rpm to get the full 8 amps out of the SD-8.=C2-
it's looking like about 6.8 amps at 2300 rpm.=C2- Your suggestion will me
an both main and E-bus need to be switched on for normal operations.=C2-
Bob has made note on many of his drawings that "all buses are on when the m
ain is on".=C2- I've had that in mind when drawing this up.=C2- Having
the E-bus switched on for normal ops means the backup alternator is always
running, though as you've suggested it can be set lower than the main, and
loaf along in the background.=C2- I need to get my head around this idea.
A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.That's a whoops, should
have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on there.Having a low voltage wa
ring that is independent of the EFIS is useful. It is possible you will get
immune to EFIS warningsYes, I do agree here.=C2- I was hoping t
he 'alt out light' function of the main alternator would be a 'low voltage
monitor' as B&C does on their newer AVC regulator.=C2- After exchanging a
couple of emails with Tim at Plane Power, it indeed only sees the output w
ithin the alternator, nothing outside.=C2- I've already got the Dynon EMS
with all the engine sensors, so it makes some sense to use what I've got.
=C2- My thinking is if it becomes annoying I can add the separate voltage
monitoring system after the fact.=C2- Tim at PP did mention that he regu
larly sees OBAM guys using the EFIS for voltage monitoring, and all too oft
en they've got parameters set way too stringent, and get many nuisance warn
ings.=C2- As yet I haven't investigated what parameters and settings I ca
n work with, so the external LV warning is always on the table.
Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter.=C2- It's very useful to think th
rough the questions and comments.
CheersGerry
------ Original Message ------From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com
>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comDate 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AMSubject RE: Ae
roElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power Analysis
Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch the a
lternator output.
Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just waiti
ng to flatten it
=C2-
If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main alternator
it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main fails it take
s up the load.
For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus bar.
If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only swit
ch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator regulator and
bring that on line.
Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly from t
he battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to disable t
he starter.
The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop the
voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you need tha
t with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus use a large s
witch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus directly from the bat
tery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use one again.
A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful. It i
s possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
=C2-
Peter
=C2-
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list
-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Gerry van Dyk
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power An
alysis
=C2-
Hello again all
Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical syste
m for my Tailwind project.=C2- For the most part it's based on Z13/8, we'
re using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of course the B&C
SD-8 backup alternator.=C2- The E160 is internally regulated, and also ha
s an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel light output, which I intend
to use.=C2- The SD-8 has their older PMR1 regulator, so we've got the ex
ternal crowbar module and no voltage sensing.=C2- I've drawn these items
as shown on their respective install instructions call for.
=C2-
As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the endurance bus
, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup procedure.=C2- I had ne
glected to think about where the starter was going to get power from, so th
e idea has forced an additional switch and relay (a rather robust one at th
at) to run the main bus.=C2- The battery contactor would be closed for st
artup, then the SD-8 operation checked and finally the main bus would be br
ought up to begin normal operation.
=C2-
I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group is inc
lined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason.=C2- As I look at
the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable panel in mind
, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire panel up with the ma
in bus, then with the engine running I'd have to close the E-bus switch, op
en the battery contactor, dropping out half the instrument panel.=C2- The
n check the backup alternator operation, and finally reboot the rest of the
panel again.=C2- It just really feels rather clunky to me.
=C2-
Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept?=C2-
Is there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main bus i
s up and running?=C2- It would certainly help me simplify my system.
=C2-
I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.=C2-
Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
=C2-
Thanks again
Gerry van Dyk
Tailwind C-GVDZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
At 10:12 AM 12/29/2023, you wrote:
>Hi Chris;
>Hi All;
>That's a great demonstration Chris.
>And it evidences exactly why I would not use fusible links in an
>aircraft, or automobile for that matter.
>There's smoke, there's fire, and there's molten metal!
>With most fuses the burned wire, smoke, and fire are contained.
>Cheers! Stu.
Chris' demonstrations are essentially the
same as those I conducted 23 years ago
when this article was published on
the website.
https://tinyurl.com/msx5ofe
The original impetus for
the article was to craft a robust,
minimum labor, alternative to the
signal leads from a firewall mounted
shunt extending to the instrument on
the panel.
In this special case, the links
were out on the firewall . . .
having the links 'fuse' under
fiberglas sleeving presented
no special hazard.
AeroElectric -and- B&C sold
a goodly number of kits that
included the somewhat hard-to-
find silicon impregnated fiberglas
sleeve.
This was before I became aware
of sources for bulk, cut-n-terminate
fuse link wire which is now readily
available from a constellation
of sources.
This stuff is ordinary, stranded
copper wire insulated in 'magic
plastic'. One of the first materials
to be qualified was 'Hypalon' by
DuPont. It was favored for use in
all manner of industrial grade
electric vehicles including over
the rails engines, mining engines,
cranes, etc. Any situation where
people shared close spaces with
really fat wires.
The smoke emitted by a faulted
cable was very low toxicity and
irritation. Hence it became a go-to
choice for fusible links as well.
The stuff is TOUGH! It's used to
fabricate all manner of inflatable
rubber flotation. This toughness
goes to it's ability to contain
byproducts of the melted wire
within.
Hypalon is no longer made, newer
competitive products have forced it
out of the market place.
Due to the general ruggedness of
fusible link insulation, smaller
wire down to 22AWG is available for
nasty environment applications as
well as fusible links.
By the way, there's a rather extensive
SAE specification describing requirements
for fusible link fabrication and
peformance. Fusible links should qualify
to SAE J-1128 Type HTS. Fusible links
should not be used in systems
that exceed 50V.
At 60+ years, this is almost vintage
technology with well proven track
records.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re[3]: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysi
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Suggestions:
Replace the 15A E-Bus fuse with a fusible link. It is not good practice to have
fuses in series.
Locate the E-Bus relay near the battery bus.
In the event of over voltage, the crowbar module will smoke.
Protect it with a 3 amp fuse or circuit breaker.
The 2A fuse in the battery contactor coil circuit is a good idea.
It will protect against reversed battery polarity. (It happens)
Consider using a Hall Effect sensor instead of a shunt, if compatible with your
Dynon.
The starter contactor diode is wired wrong. Connect the banded end to the "S"
terminal.
Connect the other end of the diode to the other end of the contactor coil (ground).
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512985#512985
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
What I found very interesting is how often the melt/disconnect occurred
near the butt splices.
Seems to negate the theory of the splices and bigger wire leading away
the heat needing to melt the wire.
Any chance that you "nicked" one or more of the strands when stripping
the insulation?
Would be interesting to see the same experiment with soldered connections.
Finn
On 12/29/2023 10:30 AM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> My very basic test rig with somewhat empirical results- no measured data.
>
> Objective: observe failure of fusible links of various lengths when
> subjected to a high current short circuit event.
>
> 12V wet cell, new, fully charged battery
> Knife switch
> 18 ga tefzel feeder, 20" length x2
> PIDG style butt splices (red)
> Camera
>
> DUT: 2", 6", 13" lengths 24 ga tefzel FL (M22759/16)
>
> Procedure:
> Fabricate fusiblelinks of 2, 6 an 13 inch lengths
> Crimp w/ AMP PIDG crimper to
> Feeder 20" 18 ga tefzel
> Clamp feeders to B+ Knife switch and B- battery terminal
> Start camera video
> Rabidly close switch
>
> Two inch FL setup
> 2InchSetup.jpg
> Crimp tool and butt splice
> AmpCrimpTool.jpg
> results:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/mryadbfx
>
> No fiberglas sleeve was used so that failure could be observed.
>
> Comments, questions, critique!
>
> ...chris
>
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:02AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> wrote:
>
> At 09:31 AM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>> Back to the original question of the length of a fusible link.
>> That is the length of smaller gauge wire comprising the 'link'.
>
>
> Had to do some 'digging' to see if I could
> find where that 3-6 inch citation came from.
> No joy.
>
> Actually, 6" is the minimum. 9" is more typical,
> 10" not unheard of. 3" is too short . . .
>
> . . . and INSULATED with material resistant to
> energy released by clearing the fault.
>
> See: http://tinyurl.com/4vnzdjpc
>
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/4vnzdjpc>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[3]: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing |
and Power Analysi
Thanks for the notes Joe
Replace the 15A E-Bus fuse with a fusible link. It is not good practice
to have fuses in series.
Yep, makes good sense.
Locate the E-Bus relay near the battery bus.
I plan to locate the SD-8 regulator between the panel and firewall. The
battery and it's bus are behind the passenger seat. My plan is to
replace the relay that came in the alternator kit with a double pole
relay, and place it beside the regulator. I suppose I could have the
switch operate two separate relays, but that seems pretty clunky. Could
you please tell me what problem you see with the relay beside the
endurance bus rather than the battery bus?
In the event of over voltage, the crowbar module will smoke. Protect it wi
th a 3 amp fuse or circuit breaker.
This confused me for a while till I realized I've got the breaker in the wr
ong position. I need to have the breaker in the switch wire, not the alte
rnator feed line back to the battery bus. I'll correct this. B&C's wiring
drawing is calling for a 2 amp breaker.
The 2A fuse in the battery contactor coil circuit is a good idea. It will
protect against reversed battery polarity. (It happens)
It'll be a long wire making its way from the contactor, up between the seat
s, through the tunnel with the flap linkages, then up to the panel, so fusi
ng it is a no-brainer. ;^)
Consider using a Hall Effect sensor instead of a shunt, if compatible
with your Dynon.
Yes, the EMS-220 from Dynon is compatible with hall effect sensors. The
engine sensor kit came with the shunt so I'll use it till I find a need
to change it. Don't get me wrong, I like hall effect sensors, but I'm
too cheap to set aside something that works and buy something different.
;^)
The starter contactor diode is wired wrong. Connect the banded end to
the "S" terminal.
Connect the other end of the diode to the other end of the contactor
coil (ground).
I'm a little red-faced on this one. When I added it, I first had it
wired as you say, then a quick glance at the battery contactor made me
think it goes on those two contacts on the side. So I changed it.
Doh!!! I'll put it back right. Of course it needs to be across the
coil.
Thanks again Joe, I'll get these corrections made.
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-29 5:53:34 PM
Subject AeroElectric-List: Re: Re[3]: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
and Power Analysi
>
>Suggestions:
>Replace the 15A E-Bus fuse with a fusible link. It is not good practice t
o have fuses in series.
>Locate the E-Bus relay near the battery bus.
>In the event of over voltage, the crowbar module will smoke.
>Protect it with a 3 amp fuse or circuit breaker.
>The 2A fuse in the battery contactor coil circuit is a good idea.
>It will protect against reversed battery polarity. (It happens)
>Consider using a Hall Effect sensor instead of a shunt, if compatible with
your Dynon.
>The starter contactor diode is wired wrong. Connect the banded end to the
"S" terminal.
>Connect the other end of the diode to the other end of the contactor coil
(ground).
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512985#512985
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
| Subject: | Data logger for DC volts and amps |
Does anyone know of a device that will keep a log of current draw in the
.05-5A range, for 12-24 hours or so? I'm trying to troubleshoot an
intermittent battery drain but the usual multimeter requires me being there
and looking at it. The best alternative I have come up with so far is to
point a video camera at the multimeter but there must be a gadget for this.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re[3]: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysi
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> Could you please tell me what problem you see with the relay beside the endurance
bus rather than the battery bus?
The pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to
the source(s) as possible.
This is especially important in the event of smoke in the cockpit or an imminent
forced landing.
Avoid installing always-hot wires any distance from the battery, especially near
the engine.
A NTSB accident inspector once commented that fires are unlikely if the battery
is thrown clear of the wreckage.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512989#512989
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Data logger for DC volts and amps |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Here are a couple of other ideas:
Put a very small fuse in series with the battery cable. If the fuse blows,
you will know that current was flowing. Digikey 486-7110-1-ND
.
Put an analog wrist watch in series with the battery cable. Put a forward
biased diode in parallel with the watch to limit the voltage across the watch.
If the time on the watch changes, current was flowing.
.
Just don't turn the master switch on while testing. :-)
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512990#512990
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Data logger for DC volts and amps |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
On 12/30/2023 10:26 AM, Jared Yates wrote:
> Does anyone know of a device that will keep a log of current draw in
> the .05-5A range, for 12-24 hours or so? I'm trying to troubleshoot an
> intermittent battery drain but the usual multimeter requires me being
> there and looking at it. The best alternative I have come up with so
> far is to point a video camera at the multimeter but there must be a
> gadget for this.
Maybe omething like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Triplett-VDL48-Voltage-USB-Datalogger/dp/B0CFCBXKRH/ref=sr_1_3?adgrpid=1225955794707457&hvadid=76622403291054&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=94237&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=p&hvtargid=kwd-76622497037322%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=13412_13504749&keywords=data+logger+voltage&qid=1703961567&sr=8-3
But too expensive for my taste.
I would use an Arduino Nano connected to a laptop or computer.
Yes, you'd need a resistor (shunt) to convert current into voltage.
Program would just be a loop to monitor one of the Nano's A/D channels.
If the A/D value read exceeds the limit you set, output the value to the
Arduino Serial Monitor with the Nano to Laptop USB cable.
I think the Nano can do close to 4,000 samples per second (0.00025
seconds/sample) which I think would be sufficient to catch any event.
If you don't want it connected to a laptop, you'd need an SDCard shield
for the Nano so you can log the events to that.
I now see that US-sold Nano's apparently have gotten ridiculously
expensive ($25) at some sellers. But you can get them on eBay for $2
shipped if you're willing to wait for it to arrive from China. I also
see that some come with screw terminals if you don't like soldering.
Finn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Data logger for DC volts and amps |
I know this is an English site, but similar devices must be available in
the US.
https://www.geminidataloggers.com/data-loggers
Look under =9CTinytag Instrumentation=9D
We use their temperature loggers at work, they are very reliable.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Jared Yates
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2023 3:26 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Data logger for DC volts and amps
Does anyone know of a device that will keep a log of current draw in the
.05-5A range, for 12-24 hours or so? I'm trying to troubleshoot an
intermittent battery drain but the usual multimeter requires me being
there and looking at it. The best alternative I have come up with so far
is to point a video camera at the multimeter but there must be a gadget
for this.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
Gerry,
In your initial post you asked for =9Ca good critique=9D of
your system, please take these comments in the supportive way they are
intended You are building a lot of redundancy (along with
complexity and cost) into your system that may not be required by the
purpose for which you intend to use the airplane. If you just want the
redundancy, and will tolerate the complexity and cost, then ignore what
I have written below.
Certified installations are required to operate for no less than 30
minutes following loss of the alternator. There are various rules
concerning how to calculate that endurance, but if your system can run
for 45 minutes on around 50% of the name plate battery capacity then you
are in about the right place. Your planned usage doesn=99t really
need two alternators and may not need 2 busbars. The things that will
cause you the most problems are engine reliability, maintaining control
of the airplane and then electrical reliability. We=99re not
really concerned with conventional engine reliability here. Fitting an
attitude indicator like a Garmin G5 (or similar with on-board sensors
and back-up battery) will provide *a lot* of redundancy. It may be you
could tolerate one bus bar and a POH list of stuff to turn off if the
alternator quits.
The assumption is if the electrical supply is lost you will always be
within no less than 30 minutes flying time of an acceptable alternate.
Actually, with aggressive load shedding, you will almost certainly be
able to burn all the fuel you have on board before the battery runs out
of juice, IMC, IFR or VMC. In a Tailwind you should be able to fly 50+
miles, and make an approach, in 30 minutes. In actuality you should be
able to fly for an hour or two.
Take a step back and look at the design of the whole electrical system.
Considering your intended usage do you really need all the complexity
you have designed into it? Will a single main battery, single
alternator, single busbar, battery backed-up AI system satisfy you
needs? What hazard is the 2 alternator, 3 busbar system you have drawn
intended to mitigate?
Peter
Battery capacity =93 many battery manufacturers are not entirely
helpful with their nameplate battery capacities with the makers of the
Odyssey series top of the list. The stated capacity is sometimes at the
10 or 20 hour rate, so the power provided if discharged over that time.
For our purposes the one hour, or even the 30 minute rate is what is
important. That number is usually less than the number quoted in the
sales literature. For a PC680 (nominally a 17AH battery) the one hour
rate is around 12Ah. Battery endurance calculations assume a battery
with 80% capacity (so shortly before replacement) with 10% charge used
on the ground, so take 72% of the one hour rate (8.6 Ah for a PC680).
=9CAircraft=9D battery makers are usually a little more
helpful. There are also guidelines on how quickly to assume the pilot
can carry out any loadshedding.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Gerry van
Dyk
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2023 7:57 PM
Subject: Re[5]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
and Power Analysis
It will be for mainly VFR touring and vacation, IFR Training and
eventually IFR travel though VFR will be preferred over IFR. The VFR
weekend breakfast flyins and hambergers will likely be the bulk of
service. I want the personal rating and currency and the airplane's IFR
capability to be there the 2 or 3 time per year when it's likely to be
required. Like an annual pilgrimage to Osh. I don't want to be
stranded for weather that's overcast but otherwise fairly benign.
Does that answer the question?
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com
>
To "Aeroelectric List (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
)"
>
Date 2023-12-29 12:44:19 PM
Subject Re: Re[3]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
and Power Analysis
Gerry, before looking at the details what are you planning to use the
airplane for? What do you want the system to do?
Long range IFR touring, medium range VFR/occasional IFR touring and VFR
hamburger runs, something else? Peter
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023, 19:27 Gerry van Dyk, > wrote:
Hello again all
Peter I'll follow-up here on those couple of points...
I've attached the latest revision to my architecture. Thinking about
what you've suggested, separating the main alternator to it's own
switch, I've done so, and it cleans up both the drawing and the
electrical system quite a bit. Effectively what we've done is separate
the "battery / alt / DC power" switch shown on the Z13/8 drawing into
two. I've got a keyed switch which I want for some basic theft
deterrence, and then the main alt switch.
In operation we'll turn on the main bus, which will mean the entire
panel will be up. The big consumers will of course be off, pitot heat,
exterior lighting, AP servos, boost fuel pump, and the radios will be in
passive receive mode. At this point we'd close the ebus / aux alt
switch and start the engine. Dynon says this will not bring down the
EFIS's so with the EMS operating we should see the aux alternator bump
the voltage, I'd flip the switch on and off if need be to see this
change. Satisfied that the aux alternator is operating we'll then bring
the main alternator online and turn the e-bus / aux alt switch off. Or
I may come around on leaving it on for normal operations.
For alternator-out condition: turn the e-bus / aux alt switch on, open
the main battery switch, dropping out the battery contactor and therefor
the main bus. If the main alt has failed or thrown the belt, it won't
matter much if we turn off the main alt switch or not.
What are your thoughts on this layout? I known I haven't used all your
suggestions, I hope you take no offense to it, I think some were moving
away from the original Z13/8 philosophy which I do rather agree with.
Best regards
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca
>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-29 8:12:00 AM
Subject Re[2]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
Power Analysis
Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.
Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing. I'm working from
rev T 1/07/14. Is there a later revision with this switch removed?
Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
As I mentioned, I want to start the engine on the E-bus. I need to
supply power to the starter, but leave the main bus un-powered, in order
to check the function of SD-8. Supplying starting power through the
E-bus seems impractical.
Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
the alternator output.
Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here. I bought the AL
12-E160 alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand
dollars to buy another. I'll have to think about it better, but on the
face of it, having a separate regulator doesn't seem to change how the
alternator is controlled. Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on many occasions
that we want to have definite control of the alternator output with a
switch in the cockpit. Z12/8 shows this switch in the center of the
drawing.
Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus. (I presume
your're talking about the main bus here.)
Perhaps I'm being foolish here. I'm placing an absolute requirement to
check the operation of the backup alternator at the beginning of every
flight. My life will depend on it should the main alternator fail.
With the main bus and main alternator connected directly to the battery
contactor they will be running at startup. As yet I don't see a way to
check the backup alternator operation with the main's running. I'd like
to do so without turning half the panel on-off-on during startup.
Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawing 504-500,
and they provide it in the kit. What would be the reason to remove it?
There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
waiting to flatten it
Quite right, and this duplicates what's shown on Z13-8. They are a
couple of conveniences, loading the baggage compartment, charging a
phone etc, without having to turn on the battery master and it's
relatively large current draw. In building my panel, all switches will
be down=off, and they're all in two rows so visually obvious when left
on. I'll have to have a quick scan of the panel when leaving the
airplane, and if I flatten the battery by mistake, my fault.
If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main
fails it takes up the load.
I presume you are making another case for removing the backup alt
switch. Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well taken.
For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
bar.
I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution to
check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.
If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
regulator and bring that on line.
I think we've covered this already. In order to start the engine I need
to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the main bus
and main alt online. I could move the starter wire to the always-hot
side of the battery contactor, so the mains are still inop, but with
that wire permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that, it violates the
idea of making the electrical system as inert as possible in a forced
landing. Again, I don't see the difference between an externally or
internally regulated alternator. The red wire to lead 1 on the alt
connector is the equivalent of the A wire on an external regulator, the
jumper is the same as one to the S wire, and the F wire is internal.
Peter, writing this is making me think about separating the main alt
control to a separate switch. Let me think that through a bit and I'll
report back later.
Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to
disable the starter.
Interesting, I'll think that out as well.
The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use
one again.
Yes, I believe it is necessary. 8 amps will not power the entire panel,
so the load shedding is still valid. Incidentally, I discovered on the
SD-8 literature that a Lycoming will need to run at 2500 rpm to get the
full 8 amps out of the SD-8. it's looking like about 6.8 amps at 2300
rpm. Your suggestion will mean both main and E-bus need to be switched
on for normal operations. Bob has made note on many of his drawings
that "all buses are on when the main is on". I've had that in mind when
drawing this up. Having the E-bus switched on for normal ops means the
backup alternator is always running, though as you've suggested it can
be set lower than the main, and loaf along in the background. I need to
get my head around this idea.
A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
That's a whoops, should have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on
there.
Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
Yes, I do agree here. I was hoping the 'alt out light' function of the
main alternator would be a 'low voltage monitor' as B&C does on their
newer AVC regulator. After exchanging a couple of emails with Tim at
Plane Power, it indeed only sees the output within the alternator,
nothing outside. I've already got the Dynon EMS with all the engine
sensors, so it makes some sense to use what I've got. My thinking is if
it becomes annoying I can add the separate voltage monitoring system
after the fact. Tim at PP did mention that he regularly sees OBAM guys
using the EFIS for voltage monitoring, and all too often they've got
parameters set way too stringent, and get many nuisance warnings. As
yet I haven't investigated what parameters and settings I can work with,
so the ex4899258752836872026xb32b8cd5421647c9b8b804b1366feb00">
Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter. It's very useful to think
through the questions and comments.
Cheers
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com
>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AM
Subject RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
Power Analysis
Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
the alternator output.
Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
waiting to flatten it
If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main
fails it takes up the load.
For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
bar.
If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
regulator and bring that on line.
Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to
disable the starter.
The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use
one again.
A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> On Behalf Of
Gerry van Dyk
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power
Analysis
Hello again all
Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical
system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's based on Z13/8,
we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of course
the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160 is internally regulated, and
also has an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel light output,
which I intend to use. The SD-8 has their older PMR1 regulator, so
we've got the external crowbar module and no voltage sensing. I've
drawn these items as shown on their respective install instructions call
for.
As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the endurance
bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup procedure. I had
neglected to think about where the starter was going to get power from,
so the idea has forced an additional switch and relay (a rather robust
one at that) to run the main bus. The battery contactor would be closed
for startup, then the SD-8 operation checked and finally the main bus
would be brought up to begin normal operation.
I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group is
inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I look
at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable panel in
mind, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire panel up with
the main bus, then with the engine running I'd have to close the E-bus
switch, open the battery contactor, dropping out half the instrument
panel. Then check the backup alternator operation, and finally reboot
the rest of the panel again. It just really feels rather clunky to me.
Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept? Is
there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main bus
is up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my system.
I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.
Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
Thanks again
Gerry van Dyk
Tailwind C-GVDZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
Gerry,
I don=99t mind if you ignore all or anything I write! It is your
airplane after all.
I think you are overstating the situation by saying your life may depend
on the SD8 operating correctly. With aggressive load shedding, and
particularly in VMC, you will be able to fly for an hour or two on the
battery. Being able to turn off the battery contactor will remove
(around) 1A of draw from the system, so being able to connect the
battery to the bus bar (for low draw services, say up to 20A) can be
beneficial.
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Gerry van
Dyk
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2023 7:18 PM
Subject: Re[3]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
and Power Analysis
Hello again all
Peter I'll follow-up here on those couple of points...
I've attached the latest revision to my architecture. Thinking about
what you've suggested, separating the main alternator to it's own
switch, I've done so, and it cleans up both the drawing and the
electrical system quite a bit. Effectively what we've done is separate
the "battery / alt / DC power" switch shown on the Z13/8 drawing into
two. I've got a keyed switch which I want for some basic theft
deterrence, and then the main alt switch.
In operation we'll turn on the main bus, which will mean the entire
panel will be up. The big consumers will of course be off, pitot heat,
exterior lighting, AP servos, boost fuel pump, and the radios will be in
passive receive mode. At this point we'd close the ebus / aux alt
switch and start the engine. Dynon says this will not bring down the
EFIS's so with the EMS operating we should see the aux alternator bump
the voltage, I'd flip the switch on and off if need be to see this
change. Satisfied that the aux alternator is operating we'll then bring
the main alternator online and turn the e-bus / aux alt switch off. Or
I may come around on leaving it on for normal operations.
For alternator-out condition: turn the e-bus / aux alt switch on, open
the main battery switch, dropping out the battery contactor and therefor
the main bus. If the main alt has failed or thrown the belt, it won't
matter much if we turn off the main alt switch or not.
What are your thoughts on this layout? I known I haven't used all your
suggestions, I hope you take no offense to it, I think some were moving
away from the original Z13/8 philosophy which I do rather agree with.
Best regards
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca
>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-29 8:12:00 AM
Subject Re[2]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
Power Analysis
Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.
Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing. I'm working from
rev T 1/07/14. Is there a later revision with this switch removed?
Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
As I mentioned, I want to start the engine on the E-bus. I need to
supply power to the starter, but leave the main bus un-powered, in order
to check the function of SD-8. Supplying starting power through the
E-bus seems impractical.
Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
the alternator output.
Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here. I bought the AL
12-E160 alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand
dollars to buy another. I'll have to think about it better, but on the
face of it, having a separate regulator doesn't seem to change how the
alternator is controlled. Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on many occasions
that we want to have definite control of the alternator output with a
switch in the cockpit. Z12/8 shows this switch in the center of the
drawing.
Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus. (I presume
your're talking about the main bus here.)
Perhaps I'm being foolish here. I'm placing an absolute requirement to
check the operation of the backup alternator at the beginning of every
flight. My life will depend on it should the main alternator fail.
With the main bus and main alternator connected directly to the battery
contactor they will be running at startup. As yet I don't see a way to
check the backup alternator operation with the main's running. I'd like
to do so without turning half the panel on-off-on during startup.
Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawing 504-500,
and they provide it in the kit. What would be the reason to remove it?
There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
waiting to flatten it
Quite right, and this duplicates what's shown on Z13-8. They are a
couple of conveniences, loading the baggage compartment, charging a
phone etc, without having to turn on the battery master and it's
relatively large current draw. In building my panel, all switches will
be down=off, and they're all in two rows so visually obvious when left
on. I'll have to have a quick scan of the panel when leaving the
airplane, and if I flatten the battery by mistake, my fault.
If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main
fails it takes up the load.
I presume you are making another case for removing the backup alt
switch. Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well taken.
For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
bar.
I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution to
check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.
If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
regulator and bring that on line.
I think we've covered this already. In order to start the engine I need
to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the main bus
and main alt online. I could move the starter wire to the always-hot
side of the battery contactor, so the mains are still inop, but with
that wire permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that, it violates the
idea of making the electrical system as inert as possible in a forced
landing. Again, I don't see the difference between an externally or
internally regulated alternator. The red wire to lead 1 on the alt
connector is the equivalent of the A wire on an external regulator, the
jumper is the same as one to the S wire, and the F wire is internal.
Peter, writing this is making me think about separating the main alt
control to a separate switch. Let me think that through a bit and I'll
report back later.
Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to
disable the starter.
Interesting, I'll think that out as well.
The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use
one again.
Yes, I believe it is necessary. 8 amps will not power the entire panel,
so the load shedding is still valid. Incidentally, I discovered on the
SD-8 literature that a Lycoming will need to run at 2500 rpm to get the
full 8 amps out of the SD-8. it's looking like about 6.8 amps at 2300
rpm. Your suggestion will mean both main and E-bus need to be switched
on for normal operations. Bob has made note on many of his drawings
that "all buses are on when the main is on". I've had that in mind when
drawing this up. Having the E-bus switched on for normal ops means the
backup alternator is always running, though as you've suggested it can
be set lower than the main, and loaf along in the background. I need to
get my head around this idea.
A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
That's a whoops, should have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on
there.
Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
Yes, I do agree here. I was hoping the 'alt out light' function of the
main alternator would be a 'low voltage monitor' as B&C does on their
newer AVC regulator. After exchanging a couple of emails with Tim at
Plane Power, it indeed only sees the output within the alternator,
nothing outside. I've already got the Dynon EMS with all the engine
sensors, so it makes some sense to use what I've got. My thinking is if
it becomes annoying I can add the separate voltage monitoring system
after the fact. Tim at PP did mention that he regularly sees OBAM guys
using the EFIS for voltage monitoring, and all too often they've got
parameters set way too stringent, and get many nuisance warnings. As
yet I haven't investigated what parameters and settings I can work with,
so the external LV warning is always on the table.
Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter. It's very useful to think
through the questions and comments.
Cheers
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com
>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AM
Subject RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
Power Analysis
Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
the alternator output.
Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
waiting to flatten it
If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the main
fails it takes up the load.
For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
bar.
If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
regulator and bring that on line.
Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole to
disable the starter.
The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not use
one again.
A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> On Behalf Of
Gerry van Dyk
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power
Analysis
Hello again all
Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical
system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's based on Z13/8,
we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of course
the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160 is internally regulated, and
also has an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel light output,
which I intend to use. The SD-8 has their older PMR1 regulator, so
we've got the external crowbar module and no voltage sensing. I've
drawn these items as shown on their respective install instructions call
for.
As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the endurance
bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup procedure. I had
neglected to think about where the starter was going to get power from,
so the idea has forced an additional switch and relay (a rather robust
one at that) to run the main bus. The battery contactor would be closed
for startup, then the SD-8 operation checked and finally the main bus
would be brought up to begin normal operation.
I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group is
inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I look
at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable panel in
mind, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire panel up with
the main bus, then with the engine running I'd have to close the E-bus
switch, open the battery contactor, dropping out half the instrument
panel. Then check the backup alternator operation, and finally reboot
the rest of the panel again. It just really feels rather clunky to me.
Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept? Is
there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main bus
is up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my system.
I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.
Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
Thanks again
Gerry van Dyk
Tailwind C-GVDZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
No worries Peter, all fair points.
A little background on myself for you. I am an engineer and draftsman
by trade. That along with a Dutch heritage, it is absolutely fair to
say I AM STUBBORN! ;^)
For the last 10 years or so while I've been building I've been following
along the AE list and reading the AEC. Mr Nuckolls has been
recommending Z13/8 as the most bang for the buck, and I certainly agree
with the idea. Along the way I've been collecting all the parts to
build the system. The two alternators have been bolted to the engine
for a couple of years.
Quick segue for a moment. I've always owned vehicles with 4 seats. For
most of my life I've owned pickup trucks. It is shocking how rarely I
carry even 1 passenger, and 4 people is more rare than a blue moon.
Even carrying something in the back of the truck isn't that common, yet
I, like many other people, think nothing of selecting such a vehicle,
just for the utility when it comes up.
Back on point...
I've had some friends have issues with Transport Canada getting the 'no
IFR' clause removed from the limitations on their flight permits.
Though the rules are murky, transport usually cites redundancy of
systems. I've heard of one occasion where a guy needed to put an
altitude encoder into his airplane, so the altitude signal went to the
encoder, was converted to grey code and then passed on to the efis which
had to decode it back to the signal it was expecting in the first place.
The inspected remembered some 30 year old guidance document from
Transport that this was required, and weather or not the thing was still
in force, (it was most certainly obsolete) when the inspector writes it
up, we must comply or be denied. Actually that fellow installed the
encoder, showed the inspector for the signoff, then promptly removed it
before going flying. These are the things we must do to satisfy
bureaucrats all over the world. In my mind, being able to show a system
with two approach certified VORs, one approach certified GPS, plus a
triple redundant power supply should make the IFR signoff relatively
easy. And because I've been studying the drawings for so long, it does
indeed give me comfort in the system.
As for acutally using the airplane for IFR, I indeed class it the same
as owning a four seat pickup truck. Rarely ever used, but there when I
need it. And to be sure, I still need to earn the rating, and keep
current, so I suspect I'll fly under the hood more often than I've
carried lumber in the truck. ;^)
As for the extra bus, the battery bus is really only there for the
convenience of charging a phone now and then, and lighting the baggabe
bay when loading up in the wee hours of the morning before a trip. I
could easily function without it, but I suspect I'll use it about as
often as I fly in actual IMC. Yeah, it's a bit of overkill, but it's
what I've been working towards for years, so changing the system,
pulling parts off the engine, and ignoring the parts already on the
shelf would really be against my nature. ;^)
Thanks for the thoughts Peter. It is wise to give some sober thought to
what the hell we're doing once in a while. For what it's worth, I've
got a rebuild project on a Mong Sport biplane in the wings. It'll have
a simple 8 amp alternator, battery and starter circuit, and a small efis
with a couple of analog instruments, because I have no delusions of
flying that airplane for anything more than an afternoon of giggles.
;^)
Best regards
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-30 3:35:32 PM
Subject RE: Re[5]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
and Power Analysis
>Gerry,
>
>
>In your initial post you asked for =9Ca good critique=9D of yo
ur system,
>please take these comments in the supportive way they are intended
You
>are building a lot of redundancy (along with complexity and cost) into
>your system that may not be required by the purpose for which you
>intend to use the airplane. If you just want the redundancy, and will
>tolerate the complexity and cost, then ignore what I have written
>below.
>
>
>Certified installations are required to operate for no less than 30
>minutes following loss of the alternator. There are various rules
>concerning how to calculate that endurance, but if your system can run
>for 45 minutes on around 50% of the name plate battery capacity then
>you are in about the right place. Your planned usage doesn=99t reall
y
>need two alternators and may not need 2 busbars. The things that will
>cause you the most problems are engine reliability, maintaining control
>of the airplane and then electrical reliability. We=99re not really
>concerned with conventional engine reliability here. Fitting an
>attitude indicator like a Garmin G5 (or similar with on-board sensors
>and back-up battery) will provide *a lot* of redundancy. It may be you
>could tolerate one bus bar and a POH list of stuff to turn off if the
>alternator quits.
>
>
>The assumption is if the electrical supply is lost you will always be
>within no less than 30 minutes flying time of an acceptable alternate.
>Actually, with aggressive load shedding, you will almost certainly be
>able to burn all the fuel you have on board before the battery runs out
>of juice, IMC, IFR or VMC. In a Tailwind you should be able to fly 50+
>miles, and make an approach, in 30 minutes. In actuality you should be
>able to fly for an hour or two.
>
>
>Take a step back and look at the design of the whole electrical system.
>Considering your intended usage do you really need all the complexity
>you have designed into it? Will a single main battery, single
>alternator, single busbar, battery backed-up AI system satisfy you
>needs? What hazard is the 2 alternator, 3 busbar system you have drawn
>intended to mitigate?
>
>
>Peter
>
>
>Battery capacity =93 many battery manufacturers are not entirely hel
pful
>with their nameplate battery capacities with the makers of the Odyssey
>series top of the list. The stated capacity is sometimes at the 10 or
>20 hour rate, so the power provided if discharged over that time. For
>our purposes the one hour, or even the 30 minute rate is what is
>important. That number is usually less than the number quoted in the
>sales literature. For a PC680 (nominally a 17AH battery) the one hour
>rate is around 12Ah. Battery endurance calculations assume a battery
>with 80% capacity (so shortly before replacement) with 10% charge used
>on the ground, so take 72% of the one hour rate (8.6 Ah for a PC680).
>=9CAircraft=9D battery makers are usually a little more helpfu
l. There are
>also guidelines on how quickly to assume the pilot can carry out any
>loadshedding.
>
>
>From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> On Behalf Of Gerry van
>Dyk
>Sent: Friday, December 29, 2023 7:57 PM
>To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re[5]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
>and Power Analysis
>
>
>It will be for mainly VFR touring and vacation, IFR Training and
>eventually IFR travel though VFR will be preferred over IFR. The VFR
>weekend breakfast flyins and hambergers will likely be the bulk of
>service. I want the personal rating and currency and the airplane's
>IFR capability to be there the 2 or 3 time per year when it's likely to
>be required. Like an annual pilgrimage to Osh. I don't want to be
>stranded for weather that's overcast but otherwise fairly benign.
>
>
>Does that answer the question?
>
>Gerry
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>
>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
>
>To "Aeroelectric List (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)"
>
>
>Date 2023-12-29 12:44:19 PM
>
>Subject Re: Re[3]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System
>Drawing and Power Analysis
>
>
>>Gerry, before looking at the details what are you planning to use the
>>airplane for? What do you want the system to do?
>>
>>Long range IFR touring, medium range VFR/occasional IFR touring and
>>VFR hamburger runs, something else? Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, 29 Dec 2023, 19:27 Gerry van Dyk,
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Hello again all
>>>
>>>Peter I'll follow-up here on those couple of points...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I've attached the latest revision to my architecture. Thinking about
>>>what you've suggested, separating the main alternator to it's own
>>>switch, I've done so, and it cleans up both the drawing and the
>>>electrical system quite a bit. Effectively what we've done is
>>>separate the "battery / alt / DC power" switch shown on the Z13/8
>>>drawing into two. I've got a keyed switch which I want for some
>>>basic theft deterrence, and then the main alt switch.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>In operation we'll turn on the main bus, which will mean the entire
>>>panel will be up. The big consumers will of course be off, pitot
>>>heat, exterior lighting, AP servos, boost fuel pump, and the radios
>>>will be in passive receive mode. At this point we'd close the ebus /
>>>aux alt switch and start the engine. Dynon says this will not bring
>>>down the EFIS's so with the EMS operating we should see the aux
>>>alternator bump the voltage, I'd flip the switch on and off if need
>>>be to see this change. Satisfied that the aux alternator is
>>>operating we'll then bring the main alternator online and turn the
>>>e-bus / aux alt switch off. Or I may come around on leaving it on
>>>for normal operations.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>For alternator-out condition: turn the e-bus / aux alt switch on,
>>>open the main battery switch, dropping out the battery contactor and
>>>therefor the main bus. If the main alt has failed or thrown the
>>>belt, it won't matter much if we turn off the main alt switch or not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>What are your thoughts on this layout? I known I haven't used all
>>>your suggestions, I hope you take no offense to it, I think some were
>>>moving away from the original Z13/8 philosophy which I do rather
>>>agree with.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Best regards
>>>
>>>Gerry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>
>>>From "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca>
>>>
>>>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>
>>>Date 2023-12-29 8:12:00 AM
>>>
>>>Subject Re[2]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
>>>and Power Analysis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.
>>>>
>>>>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>>>>
>>>>because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing. I'm working
>>>>from rev T 1/07/14. Is there a later revision with this switch
>>>>removed?
>>>>
>>>>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>>>>
>>>>As I mentioned, I want to start the engine on the E-bus. I need to
>>>>supply power to the starter, but leave the main bus un-powered, in
>>>>order to check the function of SD-8. Supplying starting power
>>>>through the E-bus seems impractical.
>>>>
>>>>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to
>>>>switch the alternator output.
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here. I bought the AL
>>>>12-E160 alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand
>>>>dollars to buy another. I'll have to think about it better, but on
>>>>the face of it, having a separate regulator doesn't seem to change
>>>>how the alternator is controlled. Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on
>>>>many occasions that we want to have definite control of the
>>>>alternator output with a switch in the cockpit. Z12/8 shows this
>>>>switch in the center of the drawing.
>>>>
>>>>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus. (I
>>>>presume your're talking about the main bus here.)
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps I'm being foolish here. I'm placing an absolute requirement
>>>>to check the operation of the backup alternator at the beginning of
>>>>every flight. My life will depend on it should the main alternator
>>>>fail. With the main bus and main alternator connected directly to
>>>>the battery contactor they will be running at startup. As yet I
>>>>don't see a way to check the backup alternator operation with the
>>>>main's running. I'd like to do so without turning half the panel
>>>>on-off-on during startup.
>>>>
>>>>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>>>>
>>>>This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawing
>>>>504-500, and they provide it in the kit. What would be the reason
>>>>to remove it?
>>>>
>>>>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery
>>>>just waiting to flatten it
>>>>
>>>>Quite right, and this duplicates what's shown on Z13-8. They are a
>>>>couple of conveniences, loading the baggage compartment, charging a
>>>>phone etc, without having to turn on the battery master and it's
>>>>relatively large current draw. In building my panel, all switches
>>>>will be down=off, and they're all in two rows so visually obvious
>>>>when left on. I'll have to have a quick scan of the panel when
>>>>leaving the airplane, and if I flatten the battery by mistake, my
>>>>fault.
>>>>
>>>>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>>>>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>>>>main fails it takes up the load.
>>>>
>>>>I presume you are making another case for removing the backup alt
>>>>switch. Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well
>>>>taken.
>>>>
>>>>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the
>>>>bus bar.
>>>>
>>>>I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution
>>>>to check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.
>>>>
>>>>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially
>>>>only switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main
>>>>alternator regulator and bring that on line.
>>>>
>>>>I think we've covered this already. In order to start the engine I
>>>>need to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the
>>>>main bus and main alt online. I could move the starter wire to the
>>>>always-hot side of the battery contactor, so the mains are still
>>>>inop, but with that wire permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that,
>>>>it violates the idea of making the electrical system as inert as
>>>>possible in a forced landing. Again, I don't see the difference
>>>>between an externally or internally regulated alternator. The red
>>>>wire to lead 1 on the alt connector is the equivalent of the A wire
>>>>on an external regulator, the jumper is the same as one to the S
>>>>wire, and the F wire is internal.
>>>>
>>>>Peter, writing this is making me think about separating the main alt
>>>>control to a separate switch. Let me think that through a bit and
>>>>I'll report back later.
>>>>
>>>>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
>>>>from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole
>>>>to disable the starter.
>>>>
>>>>Interesting, I'll think that out as well.
>>>>
>>>>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always
>>>>drop the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but
>>>>do you need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the
>>>>main bus use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the
>>>>essential bus directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode
>>>>and would not use one again.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I believe it is necessary. 8 amps will not power the entire
>>>>panel, so the load shedding is still valid. Incidentally, I
>>>>discovered on the SD-8 literature that a Lycoming will need to run
>>>>at 2500 rpm to get the full 8 amps out of the SD-8. it's looking
>>>>like about 6.8 amps at 2300 rpm. Your suggestion will mean both
>>>>main and E-bus need to be switched on for normal operations. Bob
>>>>has made note on many of his drawings that "all buses are on when
>>>>the main is on". I've had that in mind when drawing this up.
>>>>Having the E-bus switched on for normal ops means the backup
>>>>alternator is always running, though as you've suggested it can be
>>>>set lower than the main, and loaf along in the background. I need
>>>>to get my head around this idea.
>>>>
>>>>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>>>>
>>>>That's a whoops, should have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on
>>>>there.
>>>>
>>>>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is
>>>>useful. It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I do agree here. I was hoping the 'alt out light' function of
>>>>the main alternator would be a 'low voltage monitor' as B&C does on
>>>>their newer AVC regulator. After exchanging a couple of emails with
>>>>Tim at Plane Power, it indeed only sees the output within the
>>>>alternator, nothing outside. I've already got the Dynon EMS with
>>>>all the engine sensors, so it makes some sense to use what I've got.
>>>> My thinking is if it becomes annoying I can add the separate
>>>>voltage monitoring system after the fact. Tim at PP did mention
>>>>that he regularly sees OBAM guys using the EFIS for voltage
>>>>monitoring, and all too often they've got parameters set way too
>>>>stringent, and get many nuisance warnings. As yet I haven't
>>>>investigated what parameters and settings I can work with, so the
>>>>ex4899258752836872026xb32b8cd5421647c9b8b804b1366feb00">
>>>>
>>>>Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter. It's very useful to think
>>>>through the questions and comments.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Cheers
>>>>
>>>>Gerry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>
>>>>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
>>>>
>>>>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>
>>>>Date 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AM
>>>>
>>>>Subject RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
>>>>and Power Analysis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>>>>>
>>>>>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>>>>>
>>>>>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to
>>>>>switch the alternator output.
>>>>>
>>>>>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery
>>>>>just waiting to flatten it
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>>>>>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>>>>>main fails it takes up the load.
>>>>>
>>>>>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the
>>>>>bus bar.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially
>>>>>only switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main
>>>>>alternator regulator and bring that on line.
>>>>>
>>>>>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus
>>>>>directly from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the
>>>>>second pole to disable the starter.
>>>>>
>>>>>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always
>>>>>drop the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding
>>>>>but do you need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed
>>>>>the main bus use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the
>>>>>essential bus directly from the battery. I used to have a feed
>>>>>diode and would not use one again.
>>>>>
>>>>>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is
>>>>>useful. It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>>> On Behalf Of Gerry
>>>>>van Dyk
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
>>>>>To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
>>>>>Power Analysis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hello again all
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed
>>>>>electrical system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's
>>>>>based on Z13/8, we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary
>>>>>alternator, and of course the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160
>>>>>is internally regulated, and also has an internal crowbar system
>>>>>and alt-out panel light output, which I intend to use. The SD-8
>>>>>has their older PMR1 regulator, so we've got the external crowbar
>>>>>module and no voltage sensing. I've drawn these items as shown on
>>>>>their respective install instructions call for.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the
>>>>>endurance bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup
>>>>>procedure. I had neglected to think about where the starter was
>>>>>going to get power from, so the idea has forced an additional
>>>>>switch and relay (a rather robust one at that) to run the main bus.
>>>>> The battery contactor would be closed for startup, then the SD-8
>>>>>operation checked and finally the main bus would be brought up to
>>>>>begin normal operation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this
>>>>>group is inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good
>>>>>reason. As I look at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual
>>>>>EFIS, IFR capable panel in mind, it seems to me that a startup
>>>>>would bring the entire panel up with the main bus, then with the
>>>>>engine running I'd have to close the E-bus switch, open the battery
>>>>>contactor, dropping out half the instrument panel. Then check the
>>>>>backup alternator operation, and finally reboot the rest of the
>>>>>panel again. It just really feels rather clunky to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture
>>>>>concept? Is there a way to check the backup alternator function
>>>>>while the main bus is up and running? It would certainly help me
>>>>>simplify my system.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good
>>>>>review. Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks again
>>>>>
>>>>>Gerry van Dyk
>>>>>
>>>>>Tailwind C-GVDZ
>>>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
Yeah, I'm obviously not above a little healthy hyperbole now and then.
;^)
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-30 3:47:38 PM
Subject RE: Re[3]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
and Power Analysis
>Gerry,
>
>
>I don=99t mind if you ignore all or anything I write! It is your air
plane
>after all.
>
>
>I think you are overstating the situation by saying your life may
>depend on the SD8 operating correctly. With aggressive load shedding,
>and particularly in VMC, you will be able to fly for an hour or two on
>the battery. Being able to turn off the battery contactor will remove
>(around) 1A of draw from the system, so being able to connect the
>battery to the bus bar (for low draw services, say up to 20A) can be
>beneficial.
>
>
>Peter
>
>
>From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> On Behalf Of Gerry van
>Dyk
>Sent: Friday, December 29, 2023 7:18 PM
>To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re[3]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
>and Power Analysis
>
>
>Hello again all
>
>Peter I'll follow-up here on those couple of points...
>
>
>I've attached the latest revision to my architecture. Thinking about
>what you've suggested, separating the main alternator to it's own
>switch, I've done so, and it cleans up both the drawing and the
>electrical system quite a bit. Effectively what we've done is separate
>the "battery / alt / DC power" switch shown on the Z13/8 drawing into
>two. I've got a keyed switch which I want for some basic theft
>deterrence, and then the main alt switch.
>
>
>In operation we'll turn on the main bus, which will mean the entire
>panel will be up. The big consumers will of course be off, pitot heat,
>exterior lighting, AP servos, boost fuel pump, and the radios will be
>in passive receive mode. At this point we'd close the ebus / aux alt
>switch and start the engine. Dynon says this will not bring down the
>EFIS's so with the EMS operating we should see the aux alternator bump
>the voltage, I'd flip the switch on and off if need be to see this
>change. Satisfied that the aux alternator is operating we'll then
>bring the main alternator online and turn the e-bus / aux alt switch
>off. Or I may come around on leaving it on for normal operations.
>
>
>For alternator-out condition: turn the e-bus / aux alt switch on, open
>the main battery switch, dropping out the battery contactor and
>therefor the main bus. If the main alt has failed or thrown the belt,
>it won't matter much if we turn off the main alt switch or not.
>
>
>What are your thoughts on this layout? I known I haven't used all your
>suggestions, I hope you take no offense to it, I think some were moving
>away from the original Z13/8 philosophy which I do rather agree with.
>
>
>Best regards
>
>Gerry
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>
>From "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca>
>
>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>Date 2023-12-29 8:12:00 AM
>
>Subject Re[2]: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing
>and Power Analysis
>
>
>>Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts.
>>
>>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>>
>>because it is shown on the original Z-13/8 drawing. I'm working from
>>rev T 1/07/14. Is there a later revision with this switch removed?
>>
>>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>>
>>As I mentioned, I want to start the engine on the E-bus. I need to
>>supply power to the starter, but leave the main bus un-powered, in
>>order to check the function of SD-8. Supplying starting power through
>>the E-bus seems impractical.
>>
>>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
>>the alternator output.
>>
>>Yeah, I'm hamstringing myself a little bit here. I bought the AL
>>12-E160 alt several years ago, I don't have a spare couple thousand
>>dollars to buy another. I'll have to think about it better, but on
>>the face of it, having a separate regulator doesn't seem to change how
>>the alternator is controlled. Mr. Nuckolls has mentioned on many
>>occasions that we want to have definite control of the alternator
>>output with a switch in the cockpit. Z12/8 shows this switch in the
>>center of the drawing.
>>
>>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus. (I
>>presume your're talking about the main bus here.)
>>
>>Perhaps I'm being foolish here. I'm placing an absolute requirement
>>to check the operation of the backup alternator at the beginning of
>>every flight. My life will depend on it should the main alternator
>>fail. With the main bus and main alternator connected directly to the
>>battery contactor they will be running at startup. As yet I don't see
>>a way to check the backup alternator operation with the main's
>>running. I'd like to do so without turning half the panel on-off-on
>>during startup.
>>
>>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>>
>>This diode is called for by B&C on their installation drawing 504-500,
>>and they provide it in the kit. What would be the reason to remove
>>it?
>>
>>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
>>waiting to flatten it
>>
>>Quite right, and this duplicates what's shown on Z13-8. They are a
>>couple of conveniences, loading the baggage compartment, charging a
>>phone etc, without having to turn on the battery master and it's
>>relatively large current draw. In building my panel, all switches
>>will be down=off, and they're all in two rows so visually obvious when
>>left on. I'll have to have a quick scan of the panel when leaving the
>>airplane, and if I flatten the battery by mistake, my fault.
>>
>>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>>main fails it takes up the load.
>>
>>I presume you are making another case for removing the backup alt
>>switch. Again, it is called for on Z13/8, but your point is well
>>taken.
>>
>>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the bus
>>bar.
>>
>>I absolutely agree, I haven't yet come up with an elegant solution to
>>check the backup alternator without cycling the avionics.
>>
>>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially only
>>switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
>>regulator and bring that on line.
>>
>>I think we've covered this already. In order to start the engine I
>>need to switch on the battery contactor, which would also bring the
>>main bus and main alt online. I could move the starter wire to the
>>always-hot side of the battery contactor, so the mains are still inop,
>>but with that wire permanently hot, and 2 gauge wire at that, it
>>violates the idea of making the electrical system as inert as possible
>>in a forced landing. Again, I don't see the difference between an
>>externally or internally regulated alternator. The red wire to lead 1
>>on the alt connector is the equivalent of the A wire on an external
>>regulator, the jumper is the same as one to the S wire, and the F wire
>>is internal.
>>
>>Peter, writing this is making me think about separating the main alt
>>control to a separate switch. Let me think that through a bit and
>>I'll report back later.
>>
>>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
>>from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole
>>to disable the starter.
>>
>>Interesting, I'll think that out as well.
>>
>>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always drop
>>the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but do you
>>need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the main bus
>>use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the essential bus
>>directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode and would not
>>use one again.
>>
>>Yes, I believe it is necessary. 8 amps will not power the entire
>>panel, so the load shedding is still valid. Incidentally, I
>>discovered on the SD-8 literature that a Lycoming will need to run at
>>2500 rpm to get the full 8 amps out of the SD-8. it's looking like
>>about 6.8 amps at 2300 rpm. Your suggestion will mean both main and
>>E-bus need to be switched on for normal operations. Bob has made note
>>on many of his drawings that "all buses are on when the main is on".
>>I've had that in mind when drawing this up. Having the E-bus switched
>>on for normal ops means the backup alternator is always running,
>>though as you've suggested it can be set lower than the main, and loaf
>>along in the background. I need to get my head around this idea.
>>
>>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>>
>>That's a whoops, should have added it to the drawing, I'll get it on
>>there.
>>
>>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is useful.
>>It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>>
>>Yes, I do agree here. I was hoping the 'alt out light' function of
>>the main alternator would be a 'low voltage monitor' as B&C does on
>>their newer AVC regulator. After exchanging a couple of emails with
>>Tim at Plane Power, it indeed only sees the output within the
>>alternator, nothing outside. I've already got the Dynon EMS with all
>>the engine sensors, so it makes some sense to use what I've got. My
>>thinking is if it becomes annoying I can add the separate voltage
>>monitoring system after the fact. Tim at PP did mention that he
>>regularly sees OBAM guys using the EFIS for voltage monitoring, and
>>all too often they've got parameters set way too stringent, and get
>>many nuisance warnings. As yet I haven't investigated what parameters
>>and settings I can work with, so the external LV warning is always on
>>the table.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks very much for the thoughts Peter. It's very useful to think
>>through the questions and comments.
>>
>>
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Gerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------ Original Message ------
>>
>>From "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
>>
>>To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>
>>Date 2023-12-29 2:11:12 AM
>>
>>Subject RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
>>Power Analysis
>>
>>
>>
>>>Why do you want to switch the SD-8 alternator?
>>>
>>>Why switch battery power to the bus twice?
>>>
>>>Use an externally regulated main alternator to avoid having to switch
>>>the alternator output.
>>>
>>>Provide a method to connect the battery directly to the bus.
>>>
>>>Do not use a diode in the feed to the essential bus.
>>>
>>>There are a number of services connected directly to the battery just
>>>waiting to flatten it
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>If the voltage of the SD8 is set (say) 0.2v lower than the main
>>>alternator it will not produce power if the main is on line. If the
>>>main fails it takes up the load.
>>>
>>>For my liking you have too many relays between the battery and the
>>>bus bar.
>>>
>>>If you use an externally regulated main alternator then initially
>>>only switch on the SD8 on start up. Then power up the main alternator
>>>regulator and bring that on line.
>>>
>>>Install a switch that powers up the essential (or main) bus directly
>>>from the battery, if the switch is a double pole use the second pole
>>>to disable the starter.
>>>
>>>The large diode in the feed line to the essential bus will always
>>>drop the voltage by an amount. The benefit is auto load shedding but
>>>do you need that with 2 alternators? If you really want to shed the
>>>main bus use a large switch and ensure there is a path to the
>>>essential bus directly from the battery. I used to have a feed diode
>>>and would not use one again.
>>>
>>>A diode is very beneficial on the starter contactor.
>>>
>>>Having a low voltage waring that is independent of the EFIS is
>>>useful. It is possible you will get immune to EFIS warnings
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> On Behalf Of Gerry van
>>>Dyk
>>>Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2023 11:32 PM
>>>To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
>>>Power Analysis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hello again all
>>>
>>>Well, I think I'm ready for a good critique on my proposed electrical
>>>system for my Tailwind project. For the most part it's based on
>>>Z13/8, we're using a Plane Power AL12-E160 primary alternator, and of
>>>course the B&C SD-8 backup alternator. The E160 is internally
>>>regulated, and also has an internal crowbar system and alt-out panel
>>>light output, which I intend to use. The SD-8 has their older PMR1
>>>regulator, so we've got the external crowbar module and no voltage
>>>sensing. I've drawn these items as shown on their respective install
>>>instructions call for.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>As I mentioned earlier, I intended to start the engine on the
>>>endurance bus, and check the SD-8 operation during the startup
>>>procedure. I had neglected to think about where the starter was
>>>going to get power from, so the idea has forced an additional switch
>>>and relay (a rather robust one at that) to run the main bus. The
>>>battery contactor would be closed for startup, then the SD-8
>>>operation checked and finally the main bus would be brought up to
>>>begin normal operation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm a little uneasy about this extra switching, as I know this group
>>>is inclined toward fewer failure points, and with good reason. As I
>>>look at the 'textbook' Z13/8 drawing, with my dual EFIS, IFR capable
>>>panel in mind, it seems to me that a startup would bring the entire
>>>panel up with the main bus, then with the engine running I'd have to
>>>close the E-bus switch, open the battery contactor, dropping out half
>>>the instrument panel. Then check the backup alternator operation,
>>>and finally reboot the rest of the panel again. It just really feels
>>>rather clunky to me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Bob, have I missed something with the original architecture concept?
>>>Is there a way to check the backup alternator function while the main
>>>bus is up and running? It would certainly help me simplify my
>>>system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I'd appreciate if you good folks would give my drawing a good review.
>>> Questions, comments and critiques are all welcome.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks again
>>>
>>>Gerry van Dyk
>>>
>>>Tailwind C-GVDZ
>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
Hello again all
Well, with the most recent comments from Joe and Peter, here's what I
believe may become the final configuration.
I will stipulate, I recognize this is a whole lot more system than the
airplane needs to fly, however I believe it will be required to have the
'VFR Only" limitation removed from my flight limitations. And as
pointed out by a fellow Canadian in a DM, the panel has been built with
the "visual field" requirements in the Canadian regs. Specifically
backup nav instruments have to be within 12" of pilots centerline, and
there must be an independent direction instrument. I'll have a basic
whiskey compass up on the dashboard, though I might have gotten away
with the dual ADAHRS units.
As I was revising the drawing this morning I had one of those forehead
slap moments. I thought I was being clever using a dpdt relay to run
both the aux alt and the e-bus. In fact, if the OV relay tripped, it
would have taken both items down leaving me with a dark panel. Joe's
suggestion of locating the e-bus relay near the battery forced a
separate relay, which now means when the OV crowbar takes down the aux
alt relay, the e-bus will now remain powered by the battery.
I'll still welcome any additional comments pointing out deficiencies,
however I think we might just have this dialed in now.
I hope I can pay the help forward that I've received here. Thanks to
everyone.
Cheers
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power Analysis |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> however I think we might just have this dialed in now.
Not quite. :-)
The 15A circuit breaker below the overvoltage module is WAY to big. The
crowbar over-Voltage module might smoke before that circuit breaker pops.
The relay coil will draw much less than one amp. So the circuit breaker could
be rated at 1A, 3 amps maximum. Or maybe even use a 5 amp fuse.
.
The E-Bus relay will not work with positive connected to both ends of the relay
coil.
Connect terminal 5 of the E-Bus on-off switch to ground instead of to that 2A fuse.
.
Assuming that the E-Bus relay is located within 6 inches of the battery
bus, then connect them together with a fusible link. Eliminate the fusible
link on the right side of the relay. Doing that will eliminate one splice.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512999#512999
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
Thanks again Joe. I had already marked up the backup OV breaker to 5
amps, but you're quite right, on the much smaller alternator 1 or 2 amps
would be about right. It's a 5A breaker on the 60 amp alt.
On the E-bus relay, another of those 'facepalm' moments. I'm showing my
mechanical engineering side, and not thinking through electrical flow
properly. Gotta get better at that. ;^)
I had the thought of connecting the E-bus relay with the fuseable link,
but hadn't drawn it that way. the battery, b-bus and contactor are all
screwed down to one plate behind the seats, I'll bolt the relay there as
well. I'll set up a loop of fuselink to connect the relay, and we
should be good.
Thanks again, you're help is absolutely invaluable.
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-31 10:18:45 AM
Subject AeroElectric-List: Re: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
Power Analysis
>
>
>> however I think we might just have this dialed in now.
>
>Not quite. :-)
>The 15A circuit breaker below the overvoltage module is WAY to big. The
>crowbar over-Voltage module might smoke before that circuit breaker pops.
>The relay coil will draw much less than one amp. So the circuit breaker could
>be rated at 1A, 3 amps maximum. Or maybe even use a 5 amp fuse.
>.
>The E-Bus relay will not work with positive connected to both ends of the relay
coil.
>Connect terminal 5 of the E-Bus on-off switch to ground instead of to that 2A
fuse.
>.
>Assuming that the E-Bus relay is located within 6 inches of the battery
>bus, then connect them together with a fusible link. Eliminate the fusible
>link on the right side of the relay. Doing that will eliminate one splice.
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512999#512999
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry van Dyk" <gerry.vandyk(at)eastlink.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and Power |
Analysis
Thanks again Joe. I had already marked up the backup OV breaker to 5
amps, but you're quite right, on the much smaller alternator 1 or 2 amps
would be about right. It's a 5A breaker on the 60 amp alt.
On the E-bus relay, another of those 'facepalm' moments. I'm showing my
mechanical engineering side, and not thinking through electrical flow
properly. Gotta get better at that. ;^)
I had the thought of connecting the E-bus relay with the fuseable link,
but hadn't drawn it that way. the battery, b-bus and contactor are all
screwed down to one plate behind the seats, I'll bolt the relay there as
well. I'll set up a loop of fuselink to connect the relay, and we
should be good.
Thanks again, you're help is absolutely invaluable.
Gerry
------ Original Message ------
>From "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
To aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date 2023-12-31 10:18:45 AM
Subject AeroElectric-List: Re: Tailwind Electrical System Drawing and
Power Analysis
>
>
>> however I think we might just have this dialed in now.
>
>Not quite. :-)
>The 15A circuit breaker below the overvoltage module is WAY to big. The
>crowbar over-Voltage module might smoke before that circuit breaker pops.
>The relay coil will draw much less than one amp. So the circuit breaker could
>be rated at 1A, 3 amps maximum. Or maybe even use a 5 amp fuse.
>.
>The E-Bus relay will not work with positive connected to both ends of the relay
coil.
>Connect terminal 5 of the E-Bus on-off switch to ground instead of to that 2A
fuse.
>.
>Assuming that the E-Bus relay is located within 6 inches of the battery
>bus, then connect them together with a fusible link. Eliminate the fusible
>link on the right side of the relay. Doing that will eliminate one splice.
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512999#512999
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Hi folks,
I have an additional question here concerning Z101 which I use in my RV-10
.
On the RV-10 the battery is behind the baggage compartment so that
brings some question concerning wiring here the part of Z101 which shows
that:
The wire marked with 1 (feed line aux alternator) would be about 14 feet
long, I plan to protect that wire with an ANL 40A fuse on the FW close
to the alternator, but it would be always (unfused) hot on the other
side as the battery is directly hooked to that wire.
The wire marked with 2 could be very short if the relay 704-1 is placed
close to the battery
The wire marked with 3 would be again about 12 feet long, but would only
be hot when either relay is on.
In this situation I would have 3 wire runs along these 12 feet #1, #3
and the starter wiring (I use 2 AWG there because of length) and #1 and
the short #2 would always be hot.
Now I could reduce the wire runs, if I would move the Alt Bus feed relay
(704-1) to the front and hook #1 wire directly on point #4 to the
relay,=C2- I would still have the long #2 and the short #1 wire hot. But
in
summary its still one hot wire run along the fuselage.
I could mitigate that by moving the ANL fuse to the rear, but
introducing a risk, if the Aux alternator is on, that the protection of
the wire is on the other end of the source (Aux alternator).
Many thanks for the consideration and tips on that question what is best
or common practice.
Cheers from Switzerland
Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
Hi Werner;
Hi All;
I won't attempt to answer Werner's questions, but have one of my own. I had a 30
Amp shunt break in the middle, which may have led to my engine-out off-airport
landing in my Zodiac 601-XLB. A Hall effect current sensor, like the one shown
in his schematic, seems a much more secure way to go, since the conductor
whose amperage is being measured remains continuous. My question is what specific
Hall effect device should be used? A less important question: Is my present
gauge compatible, or do I need a new one? The present gauge reads "amperage"
directly from the shunt. Not a "deal killer," if I need a new gauge.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Werner Schneider" <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 5:57:39 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question
Hi folks,
I have an additional question here concerning Z101 which I use in my RV-10.
On the RV-10 the battery is behind the baggage compartment so that brings some
question concerning wiring here the part of Z101 which shows that:
The wire marked with 1 (feed line aux alternator) would be about 14 feet long,
I plan to protect that wire with an ANL 40A fuse on the FW close to the alternator,
but it would be always (unfused) hot on the other side as the battery is
directly hooked to that wire.
The wire marked with 2 could be very short if the relay 704-1 is placed close to
the battery
The wire marked with 3 would be again about 12 feet long, but would only be hot
when either relay is on.
In this situation I would have 3 wire runs along these 12 feet #1, #3 and the starter
wiring (I use 2 AWG there because of length) and #1 and the short #2 would
always be hot.
Now I could reduce the wire runs, if I would move the Alt Bus feed relay (704-1)
to the front and hook #1 wire directly on point #4 to the relay, I would still
have the long #2 and the short #1 wire hot. But in summary its still one hot
wire run along the fuselage.
I could mitigate that by moving the ANL fuse to the rear, but introducing a risk,
if the Aux alternator is on, that the protection of the wire is on the other
end of the source (Aux alternator).
Many thanks for the consideration and tips on that question what is best or common
practice.
Cheers from Switzerland
Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Good morning,
there is not a lot of echo on my question, I would appreciate if the
"usual suspects" ;) could give me a short feedback if I'm on the right
way to reduce wire runs.
Many thanks for your help, plan is to crimp the wires next week :)
Cheers Werner
On 11.01.2024 14:57, Werner Schneider wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I have an additional question here concerning Z101 which I use in my
> RV-10.
>
> On the RV-10 the battery is behind the baggage compartment so that
> brings some question concerning wiring here the part of Z101 which
> shows that:
>
>
> The wire marked with 1 (feed line aux alternator) would be about 14
> feet long, I plan to protect that wire with an ANL 40A fuse on the FW
> close to the alternator, but it would be always (unfused) hot on the
> other side as the battery is directly hooked to that wire.
> The wire marked with 2 could be very short if the relay 704-1 is
> placed close to the battery
> The wire marked with 3 would be again about 12 feet long, but would
> only be hot when either relay is on.
>
> In this situation I would have 3 wire runs along these 12 feet #1, #3
> and the starter wiring (I use 2 AWG there because of length) and #1
> and the short #2 would always be hot.
>
> Now I could reduce the wire runs, if I would move the Alt Bus feed
> relay (704-1) to the front and hook #1 wire directly on point #4 to
> the relay,=C2- I would still have the long #2 and the short #1 wire ho
t.
> But in summary its still one hot wire run along the fuselage.
>
> I could mitigate that by moving the ANL fuse to the rear, but
> introducing a risk, if the Aux alternator is on, that the protection
> of the wire is on the other end of the source (Aux alternator).
>
> Many thanks for the consideration and tips on that question what is
> best or common practice.
>
> Cheers from Switzerland
>
> Werner
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 24 Jan 2023: Status of Aerolectric List? |
The database is having a bit of trouble. And causing the Matronics
Forums site some errors. I=99m working on restoring it asap.
Thank you for the heads up!
Matt Dralle
From: stuart anderson <stuart.td.anderson(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2024 12:33 PM
Subject: 24 Jan 2023: Status of Aerolectric List?
Mr. Dralle: is the Aerolectric List offline for good?
I was searching (again) for some architecture information and could not
get to the html display.
My digest view has only (1) message from 19 Jan...
thanks,
Ron Willis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics Web Forums Back Online... |
There was a database issue impacting the Matronics Web Forums for a few day. I
have resolved the issue
and am happy to report the Forums are fully back online and operational.
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
In case of an immanent forced landing or smoke in the cockpit, the pilot should
have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.
To comply with that rule, the battery contactor and other relays should be located
near the battery. The starter contactor may be located at the firewall.
Z-101 was not intended for a rear mounted battery. And so I recommend connecting
the 10AWG aux alternator wire that you have labeled "1" to the starter contactor
just like the main alternator is with a fuselink. If you do that, then
there will not be always-hot wires running from the back to the front.
Alternators do NOT need to be protected against producing too much current.
Alternators can not produce much more than they are rated for. Protection for
alternator feeders should be located closer to the battery end, not at the alternator
end.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513130#513130
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Thanks a lot Joe for your thoughts,
if I connect the wire 1 at the starter contactor I would defy the idea
of Z101, that the aux alternator can feed the essential bus without
switching on the main contactor, so I rather would like to keep that as
in the original architecture.
The main alternator feed can be protected close to the starter contactor
here, as it would need a huge fuse when being close to the main
contactor (starter current).
Unfortunately due to CG reasons I need to have the battery at the rear
end I agree would be easier/more logical on the FW.....
Cheers Werner
On 24.01.2024 03:43, user9253 wrote:
>
> In case of an immanent forced landing or smoke in the cockpit, the pilot should
> have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.
> To comply with that rule, the battery contactor and other relays should be located
> near the battery. The starter contactor may be located at the firewall.
> Z-101 was not intended for a rear mounted battery. And so I recommend connecting
> the 10AWG aux alternator wire that you have labeled "1" to the starter contactor
> just like the main alternator is with a fuselink. If you do that, then
> there will not be always-hot wires running from the back to the front.
> Alternators do NOT need to be protected against producing too much current.
> Alternators can not produce much more than they are rated for. Protection for
> alternator feeders should be located closer to the battery end, not at the alternator
end.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513130#513130
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> if I connect the wire 1 at the starter contactor I would defy the idea
> of Z101, that the aux alternator can feed the essential bus without
> switching on the main contactor
That is not correct. If your wire #1 is connected to the starter contactor, then
the path is from Aux Alt to starter contactor to downstream side of battery
contactor to pink bridge rectifier diode to normal feed to brownout/AUX Bus.
You might have to reduce the main bus electrical load depending
on the capability of the aux alternator.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513132#513132
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
Hi Joe,
how could I doubt your advice :( (I just overlooked that path via the diode)
That is very elegant, as the Aux would source the whole system the wire
run would be short (and common to both alternators) (you would not use
the blade fuses instead a fusible link in front of the starter contactor
point?)
So there would be a bit a different logic:
- standard feed by main alternator to both buses
- in case main fails Aux takes over all buses (independent if battery
contactor is on or off (but should remain on to have stabilizing
battery in system), reducing load on main bus could keep load in limits
of Aux alternator
- in case both fail the alt feed switch would connect the
essential/engine bus directly to the bat.
Simple and elegant, I bow my head to you for that solution, thank you!!
Werner
On 24.01.2024 11:23, user9253 wrote:
>
>
>> if I connect the wire 1 at the starter contactor I would defy the idea
>> of Z101, that the aux alternator can feed the essential bus without
>> switching on the main contactor
> That is not correct. If your wire #1 is connected to the starter contactor,
then
> the path is from Aux Alt to starter contactor to downstream side of battery
> contactor to pink bridge rectifier diode to normal feed to brownout/AUX Bus.
> You might have to reduce the main bus electrical load depending
> on the capability of the aux alternator.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513132#513132
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
So it would look something like this, only long wire would be #3 but
could be disconnected via the relay high concentration on starter
contactor now of # of connection
On 24.01.2024 11:23, user9253 wrote:
>
>
>> if I connect the wire 1 at the starter contactor I would defy the idea
>> of Z101, that the aux alternator can feed the essential bus without
>> switching on the main contactor
> That is not correct. If your wire #1 is connected to the starter contac
tor, then
> the path is from Aux Alt to starter contactor to downstream side of batt
ery
> contactor to pink bridge rectifier diode to normal feed to brownout/AUX
Bus.
> You might have to reduce the main bus electrical load depending
> on the capability of the aux alternator.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513132#513132
>
>
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101B and battery in the rear wiring question |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Werner, some well respected people like Bob N. and Charlie E. prefer to use
fusible links instead of ANL fuses. Fusible links have advantages: light weight
and
no exposed terminals that could short out and less money. It is a matter of personal
choice.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513137#513137
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
Haven't been ignoring you guys . . . fun projects got
kinda diluted with holiday festivities and frivolities
along with a few home maintenance items that could
not wait . . .
But in the mean time:
I've been fiddling with the etched circuit for the
prototype OVM-14 upgrade . . . due to the very compact
ecb layout I was interested in exploring solder reflow
assembly processes using joint-by-joint application
of solder paste.
The experiments were frustrating. The consistency
and makeup of the solder 'paste' is critical. Samples
I had on hand proved problematic in that they were
reluctant to 'stick' to the pad until the component
was placed. Seems this stuff has a shelf life too.
Finally did conquer the process but while working
with these cute little boards, it occurred to me
that it was a bit late in my career life cycle
to be spooling up in new manufacturing processes and
inventorying new products!
To my way of thinking, the optimized assembly
configuration would lend itself to offering
bare boards or even kits in addition to limited
sales of completed assemblies while striving
for compact assembly.
Thought I give this a try:
The attached figure is a snapshot of the present
configuration OVM-14 ECB. It's not terribly
larger than the legacy CBOVMs. I've not used
this assembly technique in more years than I
can recall . . . first observed it in the
fabrication of my first solid state pocket
radio. A Regency TR1 that cost me a pretty
penny in newspaper route earnings about 1958!
Note the resistors stand on end soldered into
pads with very close spacing. This offers
a tighter layout opportunity with another
benefit: The upper end of each resistor can
be oriented such that it attaches to an
interesting 'test node' on the board. An
oscilloscope or voltmeter probe can be clipped
to the lead wire for performance evaluation
and/or troubleshooting.
What, you may ask, is that 'thing' hanging
off the end of the board? My short path
to low cost prototype boards is predicated
on a fixed 3.8 x 2.5 inch coupon. Hmmm . . .
what to do with that opportunity for a 'free'
ecb?
How about exploring a recently noticed LED
product that caters to night time drone
pilots? Red or green LEDs with built in
flashers. A bit slower than I'd like but
certainly bright enough. I've added a little
'parasite' board to the layout to proof an
idea for a precision low volts warning
annunciator with a very low parts count.
I'll publish drawings for the ECB
shortly with the notion of exploiting
any willing talents for proofing the
layout. I've got an order into Digikey
for thru-hole parts to assemble the prototypes
which should go VERY quickly.
This may not be the optimal route but I
think it's better than the rabbit hole
I dove into the first time. Let's see
what shakes out.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | 'Funky' fuses and other interesting adventures |
Shortly before the holidays we had a brief
thread concerning the relative merits of utilizing
automotive fuses of unknown source and equally
unknown qualifications.
We harkened to the admonitions from representatives
of Busssman, Littlefuse, etc. etc:
"NO . . . you can't have that . . .
you'll shoot your eye out!"
Oops . . . wrong movie . . .
"Those fuses do not come with the
assurances of performance control
and reliability offered by our
products . . . you're gonna set
your wires on fire!"
Okay, as we've discussed many times on this
forum over the years, the science of good
design requires a working knowledge
in properties of materials, management of energy
and refinement of process. Doesn't matter
if you're baking cheese souffle, building
a house . . . or wiring an airplane.
There's another bit of wisdom handed down to
us from history:
"I often say that when you can measure what you are
speaking about, and express it in numbers, you
know something about it; but when you cannot
measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers,
your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind."
---- Lord Kelvin ----
To be sure, a great deal of what is pushed down
on us these days is considerably lacking in
numbers!
Okay, let's consider how we can 'go get the
numbers'.
I've acquired a new tool for the mess-making
shop. Toward the goal of being able to test and
quantify performance on various components,
an accurately calibrated electronic load-bank is
of considerable value.
This critter will sink up to 250 watts with
max voltage of 100; max current of 50A. It features
a pulse generator that allows the load to be
modulated with excursions in both magnitude,
frequency and duration. I've not enjoyed this
capability since the last regulator I did for
Beech about a bazillion years ago.
It also has a scaled current sample port that
will drive my oscilloscope. This instrument will
be invaluable for evaluating a box of 'funky'
fuses.
I will suggest there are two experiments to be
designed and conducted. (1) compare interruption
characteristics of the funky fuses with some
name brand devices -and- their data sheets. (2)
craft an experiment that attempts to set a
wire on fire . . . or at least cause a level of
destruction that generates expensive repairs if
not risks to comfortable completions of flight.
Things are moving ahead with the test stand.
How would we set up the experiment for demise
of an 'inadequately' protected wire? Keep
in mind that my prodigal environmental chamber
has returned from a 20-year 'sabbatical' so our
experiment can include elevated environmental
temperature effects.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
| From: | "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
If you send me the schematic I can then make up a board with SMD and have it made
by PCBway. They are very cost effective.
As an example the photo is an RF/audio probe I just finished using SMD. I used
1206 sized SMD for this.
--------
KC1DNJ
General Radiotelephone
Commercial SEL
A & P
Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513144#513144
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/20231218_171455_213.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | stuart anderson <stuart.td.anderson(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Z-12N based architecture review request |
Team: I=99d appreciate a review of my first draft architecture, base
d on
Z-12N. Any credit goes to Mr. Nuckolls and many contributors; any errors
are mine.
Aircraft: Vans RV-14A
Mission: IFR cross-country
Engine: electrically dependent (SDS EFI/I) IO-390.
Electric Power:
-main: B&C 60a externally regulated alternator
-backup: Monkworkz MZ30L 30a externally regulated generator
-battery: EarthX ETX900, approx 50 min power for engine bus only (18.6ah @
1c rate.)
Electric Load Analysis:
-Engine bus: <14a for SDS dual ECU, coils, injectors, fuel pumps...
-Main bus estimates: <35a max draw (avionics, flap motor, fans, lights...);
<8a steady state; still working the "minimum essential avionics" estimate
I have considered Z-13, Z-14, and Z-101; 12N seems the best fit for my
mission, skills, and planned equipment.
thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Shorts & Blown Fuse |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Joe, hello Bob.
Apologies for e-mailing you both off forum but I have difficulties when trying
to post to the AeroElectric forum.
I'd like to ask a couple of questions and if it is possible, could I ask you to
also post this request to the forum please.
General question; what are the events that will actually cause a fuse to blow?
Also, the word "short" is mentioned together with blown fuses, but what exactly
is meant by a short in our amateur-built aircraft?
I have yet to find a really good source for advice on fault-finding. If you know
of one, I'd appreciate hearing of it please.
Specifically I have a nav/com unit that has blown the fuse of its nav board.
The unit has separate power supplies for nav and com and also for light dimming
capability.
This nav/com is connected to a cdi that has its own separate power supply and again
a supply for light dimming.
In the past the cdi vertical needle fluctuated, after having been steady, and if
I remember
correctly shortly afterwards the nav/com display showed nav receiver and gs receiver
failure.
It was on checking that I found the nav board power supply 5amp fuse had blown.
I have replaced it and the fault messages have disappeared and the cdi needle is
currently steady.
But I am concerned that the fuse may blow again.
If it doesn't, the issue that caused it to blow in the first place may
damage the nav side of the unit with ensuing expensive repair charges!
So you can see that I am trying to fault-find and hence my initial general questions.
Any direction/guidance/information you and the forum can provide will be extremely
helpful, thanking you both in advance.
With kind regards
Patrick Elliott, Surrey, England
Long-EZ, G-LGEZ
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513146#513146
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shorts & Blown Fuse |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
This is the link that I use for the AeroElectric List:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3
-
Fuses can blow from old age or vibration, excessive ambient temperature,
excessive current, or a loose fuse holder which makes heat. Glass fuses such
as AGC are prone to fail due to the long element and due to poor fuse holder
spring tension. Make sure that fuses are held firmly with lots of spring tension.
-
A short circuit is an unintended current path which is usually shorter than the
intended current path. A wire that vibrates against a sharp metal can result
in a short circuit when the insulation is worn away and the copper wire
contacts the aluminum airframe.
-
It is not clear from Patrick's description where the problem fuse is located.
Is the fuse part of the aircraft electrical system or is the fuse located within
the navigation power supply? If the blown fuse is contained within avionics,
there is not much that the average person can do except replace it, making
sure it is held in place with lots of spring tension. A fuse holder with weak
springs will result in a poor electrical connection that has resistance. Current
flowing through resistance makes heat which can cause the fuse to blow. A
poor electrical connection can also cause intermittent failures.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513147#513147
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shorts & Blown Fuse |
Fuses failing from old age is a thing of the past, unless you uses fuses fro
m the past. Modern auto blade fuses will likely outlast your airplane if use
s within their specifications. https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/support/eaton
-answers/what-is-fuse-fatigue.html
Matt
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 26, 2024, at 4:29=AFPM, user9253 wrote:
>
l.com>
>
> This is the link that I use for the AeroElectric List:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3
> -
> Fuses can blow from old age or vibration, excessive ambient temperature,
> excessive current, or a loose fuse holder which makes heat. Glass fuses s
uch
> as AGC are prone to fail due to the long element and due to poor fuse hold
er
> spring tension. Make sure that fuses are held firmly with lots of spring t
ension.
> -
> A short circuit is an unintended current path which is usually shorter tha
n the
> intended current path. A wire that vibrates against a sharp metal can res
ult
> in a short circuit when the insulation is worn away and the copper wire
> contacts the aluminum airframe.
> -
> It is not clear from Patrick's description where the problem fuse is locat
ed.
> Is the fuse part of the aircraft electrical system or is the fuse located w
ithin
> the navigation power supply? If the blown fuse is contained within avioni
cs,
> there is not much that the average person can do except replace it, making
> sure it is held in place with lots of spring tension. A fuse holder with w
eak
> springs will result in a poor electrical connection that has resistance. C
urrent
> flowing through resistance makes heat which can cause the fuse to blow. A
> poor electrical connection can also cause intermittent failures.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513147#513147
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12N based architecture review request |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The Monkworkz MZ30L is NOT wired like most alternators. Read the installation
manual.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BckaSN06Lv4BYY07AfHk3YRvx8b60yybpX0qHB-Mymc/edit
Below is my interpretation of the owner's manual.
ALL of the wires from the MZ30L go to its regulator and no place else.
Not counting the wires between the generator and regulator, a minimum of 4
wires are required to be connected to the regulator. Regulator pins 1 & 6 go to
an enable switch. Regulator pins 17 & 18 go to the main power bus and ground
respectively. 10AWG wire could be used for pins 17 & 18. The fuselink would
then be 14AWG.
The other pins on the regulator are optional and are for an external indicator
light and signal outputs to a customer supplied ammeter.
The Monkworkz MZ30L is self current limiting. If overloaded, the output voltage
will automatically decrease to limit the current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513149#513149
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12N based architecture review request |
| From: | "esco" <stuart.td.anderson(at)gmail.com> |
Joe: thank you very much for the review.
I've read the Monkworkz installation manual a few times, and I'm working out the
integration required. Bill Judge is very clear about the need to connect to
the switched side of battery contactor- that is one of the reasons I chose the
Z12 as a model.
As I learn and refine this, I'll add more details.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513151#513151
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses and shorts |
At 03:35 AM 1/26/2024, you wrote:
>Hello Joe, hello Bob.
>
>Apologies for e-mailing you both off forum but I have difficulties
>when trying to post to the AeroElectric forum.
No problem.
>I'd like to ask a couple of questions and if it is possible, could I
>ask you to also post this request to the forum please.
>
>
>General question; what are the events that will actually cause a fuse to blow?
Fuses are, in general, fabricated from materials
with low melting temperatures compared to preferred
conductors like copper. Fusible elements
are not zero ohms conductors. Current passing
through them creates a voltage drop. Volts x Amps
equals Watts. Watts manifest in HEAT.
The thermal dynamics for a fuse are 'tuned'
to allow melting of the fusible element when
subjected to a particular current over time
event. Fuses come with an 'Amps' rating that
only generally defines its dynamic behavior.
Fuses have a 'fusing constant' mathematically
depicted as Amps(squared) times Seconds.
Consider the plots that describe characteristics
of the plug-in, plastic ATC style fuses:
https://tinyurl.com/yw8kttde
These curves tell us that at ATC fuse subjected
to 3X overload can be expected to open on the
order of 100 milliseconds. The 3A fuse can
be expected to carry 4A indefinitely.
>Also, the word "short" is mentioned together with blown fuses, but
>what exactly is meant by a short in our amateur-built aircraft?
Shorts are 'hard faults'; severe overload which
will cause a fuse to operate in a few milliseconds.
Shorts are generally caused by mechanical
compromise of the conductors that bring
them in contact with 'ground'.
>I have yet to find a really good source for advice on fault-finding.
>If you know of one, I'd appreciate hearing of it please.
You study the schematic . . . where does the
power go after the fuse? What components are
most likely to develop faults that overload
the circuit protection.
>Specifically I have a nav/com unit that has blown the fuse of its nav board.
>
>The unit has separate power supplies for nav and com and also for
>light dimming capability.
>
>This nav/com is connected to a cdi that has its own separate power
>supply and again a supply for light dimming.
>
>In the past the cdi vertical needle fluctuated, after having been
>steady, and if I
>remember correctly shortly afterwards the nav/com display showed nav receiver
>and gs receiver failure.
>
>It was on checking that I found the nav board power supply 5amp fuse
>had blown.
>
>I have replaced it and the fault messages have disappeared and the
>cdi needle is currently steady.
>
>But I am concerned that the fuse may blow again.
>
>If it doesn't, the issue that caused it to blow in the first place
>may damage the nav side of the unit with ensuing expensive repair charges!
It seems unlikely . . . internal fuses are
installed to prevent faults from 'spreading'.
>So you can see that I am trying to fault-find and hence my initial
>general questions.
>
>Any direction/guidance/information you and the forum can provide
>will be extremely helpful, thanking you both in advance.
If a replaced fuse does not blow immediately, then
you're looking for a soft fault . . . an overload
as opposed to a short . . . or an intermittent
short (unlikely inside a radio . . . but not
impossible.
How old is this radio? Do you have service documents
on it . . . i.e. schematics? Electrolytic filter
capacitors are early suspects for developing leakage
currents with age. If you have schematics, you
could consider replacing any such candidate
capacitors there won't be very many. Can you
scan or photograph the circuitry
downstream of the fuse and share it with us?
I'm sorry there's no short, turn-key answer to
your problem. Some grey haired technician with
years of experience with your radio might well
say, "Oh yeah . . . seen that before . . . no
problem."
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shorts & Blown Fuse |
At 04:10 PM 1/26/2024, you wrote:
>Fuses failing from old age is a thing of the past, unless you uses fuses from
>the past. Modern auto blade fuses will likely outlast your airplane
>if uses within their specifications.
>https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/support/eaton-answers/what-is-fuse-fatigue.html
The key phrase here is "within their specifications".
The document cited doesn't describe 'fuses' but 'current
limiters' These are exceedingly robust devices like
the ANL/ANN/MIDI series devices along with fusible
links. They are intended for protection within a
distribution system . . . often upstream of multiple
feeders unique to individual systems or appliances.
There is no mention of the low level, fast operating
devices like the ATC fuses and their cousins.
True, fuses operated within their specifications
can be expected to go to the scrap yard with
the rest of your airplane, hopefully decades
hence. The same is true of circuit breakers.
This fact underscores what I would describe as
poor return on investment for the $, time and
panel space to fit your airplane with 'acres
of breakers'. We've long suggested that your
time, talent and resources would be better
spent.
An anecdotal aside on this topic: Missed
my one and only chance to participate
in the development of Jim Bede's BD-10J
way back when. Had a phone call from his
project manager asking if I had any
recommendations for hardware and
architecture. After a month of conversations
and exchange of data, I submitted a 'z-figure'
starting point for future discussions.
The next call informed me that "Jim wanted
breaker panels" . . . seems he want his
future customers to feel like they were
flying some form of military hardware.
For the sake of simplified installation
and lower weight, I had a number of fuse
blocks located remotely from the cockpit.
Hmmm . . . thought about it for awhile
then emailed them to respectfully bow
out of the program. Included an invoice
for time-to-date . . . never heard back!
That specifications thingy represents the
greatest risk to the application of fuses
in our projects. The fusible element is a
thermally responsive device that can be
'hammered' . . . a phenomenon that happens
only with the modern plastic fuses and their
legacy counterparts - glass cartridge fuses.
A fuse should not be continuously loaded
to more than 75-80 percent of rating with
careful attention to knowing if it's subject
to short duration excursions to 'peanut-butter-
metal' territory.
Recall the discussions about characteristics
of solder . . . review those pages in the
'Connection if you don't remember the details.
As you depart either side of the eutectic melting
point for the alloy, the melding temperature
goes up and the 'plastic' range gets wider.
The operating element in a fuse does exactly
the same thing . . . for some range of heating
due to flow of current, the element will become
soft and may well change shape while not
actually opening up. However, these events
will reduce the element's cross section/
density and cause its operating current
to GO DOWN. Repeated events will eventually
cause the fuse to fail.
This is what happened in the crash of
N811HB in California in 2008. Readers new
to the List are invited to review details
of this even at:
https://tinyurl.com/2j7yytto
So yeah, fuses in our airplanes are as
likely to go to the scrap yard as fuses
in our cars. Treat 'em nice and they'll
treat you nice too.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12N based architecture review request |
| From: | "esco" <stuart.td.anderson(at)gmail.com> |
Overview architecture updated to include MonkWorkz-specified installation.
Engine bus (approved by SDS) also attached.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513156#513156
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/20230118_eng_bus_schematic_v11__165.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/20240128_z12_140455_v2_196.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12N based architecture review request |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Esco, your schematic shows 4 wires going from the MZ-30L generator to the aircraft
electrical system.
The MZ-30L installation manual shows ZERO wires going from the MZ-30L generator
to the aircraft electrical system.
All of the wires from the MZ-30L generator must ONLY go to the regulator. None
go to the aircraft.
Only the regulator has wires going to the aircraft electrical system. The generator
puts out 3 phase AC.
Therefore it can NOT be connected directly to the aircraft DC electrical system.
The generator can only be connected to the rectifier / regulator.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513157#513157
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/monkworkz_mz_30l_189.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12N based architecture review request |
| From: | "esco" <stuart.td.anderson(at)gmail.com> |
Joe: thank you very much!
You're absolutely correct.
I read the installation manual, specifically "2.2. Minimum Installation / Required
Connections" several times... and still misunderstood. I'll make the updates
tonight!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513158#513158
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
At 05:57 AM 1/25/2024, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob,
>
>If you send me the schematic I can then make up a board with SMD and
>have it made by PCBway. They are very cost effective.
>As an example the photo is an RF/audio probe I just finished using
>SMD. I used 1206 sized SMD for this.
Thank you so much for the offer sir. BTW, nice
looking assembly. SMA connectors? What does it do?
I did a surface mount ECB and already have the
boards. However, while resolving some issues with
solder paste dispensing I had an epiphany . . .
I'm not at the stage of my 'career' to be
launching a project to be manufactured in
my shops.
Decided to convert it to thru-hole so that
I might offer kits . . . and perhaps get
some local kids interested in learning how
to put such things together. I've published
the 'plan-b' details in another posting. I'll
comb it for errors one more time and get
boards on order. Should be here Friday.
I'll also get an order in to Digikey for
parts compliment.
If you'd care to proof the layout yourself,
your input would be truly appreciated.
It's a bit risky to proof one's personal
work product . . . but then I'm probably
not telling you anything you don't already
know!
Yeah, about that 1206 footprint . . . that's
been my favorite choice for hand assembly for
the past 20 years or so!
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
I've published the ECB layout and assy data at
https://tinyurl.com/ytdg9ehf
Any any assistance in proofing the layout to the
schematic would be appreciated. Will order boards
late tonight.
Got an order about ready to ship to Digikey for
parts.
We might get this project into smoke-test yet!
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Campo <Peter_Campo(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
Bob,
Still interested in being a beta-tester. With the through-hole redesign I c
an probably competently assemble it myself! Even better for my use case if t
he low voltage warning light/LED option is included.
Peter
> On Jan 29, 2024, at 10:12=AFAM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> =EF=BB I've published the ECB layout and assy data at
>
> https://tinyurl.com/ytdg9ehf
>
> Any any assistance in proofing the layout to the
> schematic would be appreciated. Will order boards
> late tonight.
>
> Got an order about ready to ship to Digikey for
> parts.
>
> We might get this project into smoke-test yet!
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ========================
========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
At 01:03 PM 1/29/2024, you wrote:
>Bob,
>Still interested in being a beta-tester. With the through-hole
>redesign I can probably competently assemble it myself! Even better
>for my use case if the low voltage warning light/LED option is included.
>
>Peter
You're at the top of the list. We'll assemble the
first 'batch' here for testing. The lv warning
board gets trimmed off . . . that's a separate
project that's still under cultivation. But you
can have one of those too once they're ready
for prime time.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
| From: | "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com> |
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 05:57 AM 1/25/2024, you wrote:
Thank you so much for the offer sir. BTW, nice
looking assembly. SMA connectors? What does it do?
/quote]
Bob, The unit displayed is an RF/audio probe for signal tracing. this feeds an
amplifier. Yes, SMA connectors. It makes a nice compact unit using RG 174 as a
lead. The probe is powered from the amp.
I am not sure how this is going to get displayed as I rarely use quotes or even
reply.
Merle
--------
KC1DNJ
General Radiotelephone
Commercial SEL
A & P
Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513168#513168
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12N based architecture review request |
| From: | "esco" <stuart.td.anderson(at)gmail.com> |
Revised to show MZ30L: all aircraft connections at regulator only.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513169#513169
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/20240129_z12_140455_v3_941.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
| From: | "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> I've published the ECB layout and assy data at
>
> https://tinyurl.com/ytdg9ehf (https://tinyurl.com/ytdg9ehf)
>
> Any any assistance in proofing the layout to the
> schematic would be appreciated. Will order boards
> late tonight.
>
> Got an order about ready to ship to Digikey for
> parts.
>
>
> We might get this project into smoke-test yet!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
I looked at your layout and after finally figuring out the semantics it looks OK
initially. It was confusing until I understood the numbering scheme for components.
For me it usually takes about 3 iterations to figure out what I forgot. At 82 I
am finally recognizing a memory failure.
Merle
--------
KC1DNJ
General Radiotelephone
Commercial SEL
A & P
Building scale P51, rebuilding Tailwind W10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513174#513174
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge |
I have an SBS-J16 battery in an aircraft in which the battery master was left on
for two weeks (I know).
When found, the open circuit terminal voltage had dropped to 2.2 volts. A Dewalt
sophisticated battery charger didnt want to have anything to do with it, so
Ive now put it on charge with my bench power supply at 14.4V limited to 4 amps.
Initially the battery resistance was very high, and increasing - the voltage was
limited at 14.4V and the current dropped from 1.3 amps, to about 1.1 amps, within
a couple of minutes, and then started to ramp up, about 1mA per second.
After being on charge for an hour or so, the current it is accepting has risen
so the current limiting has kicked in, presently at 4 amps and the terminal voltage
has dropped to 14.3 V.
Im curious why the resistance was so high to start with, why it has now dropped
(to what seems normal charging behaviour to me) and also to know if this battery
has a chance of resurrection,. Its only a couple of years old, so if it will
soldier on after its mistreatment, I would be happy. What are my chances, do
you think?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12N based architecture review request |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The MZ-30L regulator output terminal 2 provides ground for an indicator light.
The light needs to get positive from a fuse connected to the aircraft main power
bus.
Notice that there is a "Pilot Enable Switch".
Every aircraft should have one of those, even aircraft without an electrical system.
:-)
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513176#513176
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12N based architecture review request |
| From: | "N1921R" <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com> |
esco wrote:
> ... Bill Judge is very clear about the need to connect to the switched side of
battery contactor...
It is not necessary to connect the Monkworkz regulator current output to the switched
side of the master contactor/main bus, only that it be disconnected from
the battery somehow while parked to prevent its parasitic load from depleting
the battery.
I show it connected to the engine/essential bus which is on the forward side of
the firewall. This way the engine will run with the main bus offline, for instance
in the smoke in the cockpit scenario. Snip attached. More complete PDF schematic
in folder 1) / A) here
The OP has seen this but maybe others have thoughts.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential
bus.
My links here
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513177#513177
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n1921r_electrical_power_schematic_snip_141.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep |
discharge
At 04:09 PM 1/30/2024, you wrote:
>
>I have an SBS-J16 battery in an aircraft in
>which the battery master was left on for two weeks (I know).
>
> When found, the open circuit terminal voltage
> had dropped to 2.2 volts. A Dewalt
> sophisticated battery charger didn=99t want to have anything to do
with it,
Yeah . . . many smart chargers do a pre-assessment of the target
battery and will not take on the task unless the terminal voltage
is above some minimum level . . . I have a couple chargers that
do this.
A temporary parallel connection of the smart-charger and some
other voltage source, like another battery will often convince
the charger that it's time to go to work.
Now, recall the days long before RG/GlasMat batteries.
The 'wet' stuff inside was (and still is) a dilute mixture
of water and sulfuric acid. Pure water is a very poor
conductor of electrons . . . but adding some
combination of free ions like salt, sodium bicarbonate,
or sulfuric acid to the water and it becomes a ready
conductor of current.
Recall that we could test the relative state of
charge for a lead-acid battery by measuring the
electrolyte's DENSITY with a hydrometer. The
legacy float/in/glass hydrometer is generally
calibrated in density vs. state of charge
where electrolyte 12% greater than 1.000
(pure water) is zero-percent; 26% is full
charge.
Note in attached figure (shamelessly stollen
off BatteryUniversity.com), 0% state of charge
on a 12 volt produces an open circuit reading
on the order of 11.9 volts.
You cited an open circuit voltage of 2.2 volts . . .
Hmmmm . . . less than 0% state of charge?
Actually, yes. Active material in the plates
had sucked still more acid from the electrolyte
than what would produce any useful energy
from the chemistry.
The closer to pure water . . . the more depressed
conductivity. Hence, first attempts to push energy
back into the battery will be met with lots of
resistance . . . no pun intended.
I recall reading a qualification test on
a Concorde battery document where a fully
discharged battery is dead-shorted for a
period of time after which a recharge
protocol calls for applying a higher than
normal voltage until significant recharge
current is observed. The test proceeds with
a normal constant voltage/constant current
charge. After top-off, the battery is cap-checked
and must demonstrate some minimum.
I dug around in the library but could not
come up with that document so I cannot quote
exact times and values. But note that this
is a quality test for a new battery. While
a certain level of degradation is expected,
the battery is EXPECTED to recover by some
minimum amount required for return to
service.
> so I=99ve now put it on charge with my bench
> power supply at 14.4V limited to 4 amps.
>Initially the battery resistance was very high,
>and increasing - the voltage was limited at
>14.4V and the current dropped from 1.3 amps, to
>about 1.1 amps, within a couple of minutes, and
>then started to ramp up, about 1mA per second.
>After being on charge for an hour or so, the
>current it is accepting has risen so the current
>limiting has kicked in, presently at 4 amps and
>the terminal voltage has dropped to 14.3 V.
Yup, this is expected and you may well
recover this battery to some level for
continued service. After a 24-hour float
at 14.4, let it see idle for 24-hours
then do a cap check followed by recharge
and a load test.
>I=9Dm curious why the resistance was so high to
>start with, why it has now dropped (to what
>seems =99normal=99 charging behaviour to me) and
>also to know if this battery has a chance of
>resurrection,. It=99s only a couple of years
>old, so if it will soldier on after its
>mistreatment, I would be happy. What are my chances, do you think?
As Lord Kelvin oft admonished, if you
don't know the numbers, what you DO know
is of limited value.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Have a pretty solid electric system derived from the Z diagrams on my EZ.
Going to dual electronic ignition and have high confidence in 2 alternators and
a battery, but want a standby "get me down" battery since my 2nd alternator is
an SD8 and it doesn't make power when the RPM is pulled back.
Switch shown here is a progressive switch. Off (down) is off. Up is normal main
bus providing power to the ignition and charge current to the standby small battery.
Middle position is isolating the ignition to a ~5ah 12V battery (EarthX
or similar). Diode keeping electrons flowing to the ignition and not the rest
of the world.
Have I missed anything? Thought was if the world is going to hell, One switch and
I've got that ignition isolated and powered. Probably never use it, but...
Thoughts?
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513182#513182
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lsestandbypower_756.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 1:48=AFPM andymeyer wro
te:
m
> >
>
> Have a pretty solid electric system derived from the Z diagrams on my EZ.
> Going to dual electronic ignition and have high confidence in 2
> alternators and a battery, but want a standby "get me down" battery since
> my 2nd alternator is an SD8 and it doesn't make power when the RPM is
> pulled back.
>
> Switch shown here is a progressive switch. Off (down) is off. Up is norma
l
> main bus providing power to the ignition and charge current to the standb
y
> small battery. Middle position is isolating the ignition to a ~5ah 12V
> battery (EarthX or similar). Diode keeping electrons flowing to the
> ignition and not the rest of the world.
>
> Have I missed anything? Thought was if the world is going to hell, One
> switch and I've got that ignition isolated and powered. Probably never us
e
> it, but...
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Andy
>
My personal thought process is to have engine 'stuff' isolated from
airframe stuff as much as possible, so 'off nominal' operation comes closer
to our training. I don't see what EI is being used, but most systems advise
tying their power source directly to the airframe battery bus. That gets it
away from the airframe circuitry, and keeps power available even with the
Master off.
FWIW, if you have a main (big) alternator, plus the SD8, plus the main
battery, adding another battery is a belt on suspenders on a belt on a.....
;-)
*If* I felt a real need to add battery redundancy, I'd consider a pair of
diode isolated switches feeding the ignition; one from each battery. Using
a single switch to select battery source creates a single point of failure
if the switch fails mechanically. It also raises potential operational
issues during off-nominal, because we tend to see switches as two-state
devices. Might not be a big issue for the builder, but could bite anyone
else flying the plane.
Hope that's of some use,
Charlie
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I agree with Charlie about using 2 separate switches.
Put dots on your schematic at wire junctions.
The diode is backwards.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513185#513185
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 9:11=AFPM user9253 wrote:
>
> I agree with Charlie about using 2 separate switches.
> Put dots on your schematic at wire junctions.
> The diode is backwards.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
> I thought the same thing about the diode, but after studying the action o
f
the switch, I think he has the diode oriented correctly for that desired
function. I still think separate switches make more sense, though.
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep |
discharge
Here=99s how it turned out: 12 hours on a bench PSU at 14.4v, then
12 hours rest, then I attached a different =9Csmart=9D
charger that showed the battery as discharged, but did proceed to engage
the charging cycle. 24 hours after that, the charger was showing the
battery at 100% charge and it had enough juice to start the engine, and
I flew for about an hour.
Hopefully it will maintain enough energy to power a start cycle again,
some time next week.
Thanks for the comments, Bob!
On Jan 31, 2024, at 22:31, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 04:09 PM 1/30/2024, you wrote:
>
> I have an SBS-J16 battery in an aircraft in which the battery master
was left on for two weeks (I know).
>
> When found, the open circuit terminal voltage had dropped to 2.2
volts. A Dewalt sophisticated battery charger didn=C3=A2=C2=C2=99t
want to have anything to do with it,
Yeah . . . many smart chargers do a pre-assessment of the target
battery and will not take on the task unless the terminal voltage
is above some minimum level . . . I have a couple chargers that
do this.
A temporary parallel connection of the smart-charger and some
other voltage source, like another battery will often convince
the charger that it's time to go to work.
Now, recall the days long before RG/GlasMat batteries.
The 'wet' stuff inside was (and still is) a dilute mixture
of water and sulfuric acid. Pure water is a very poor
conductor of electrons . . . but adding some
combination of free ions like salt, sodium bicarbonate,
or sulfuric acid to the water and it becomes a ready
conductor of current.
Recall that we could test the relative state of
charge for a lead-acid battery by measuring the
electrolyte's DENSITY with a hydrometer. The
legacy float/in/glass hydrometer is generally
calibrated in density vs. state of charge
where electrolyte 12% greater than 1.000
(pure water) is zero-percent; 26% is full
charge.
Note in attached figure (shamelessly stollen
off BatteryUniversity.com), 0% state of charge
on a 12 volt produces an open circuit reading
on the order of 11.9 volts.
You cited an open circuit voltage of 2.2 volts . . .
Hmmmm . . . less than 0% state of charge?
Actually, yes. Active material in the plates
had sucked still more acid from the electrolyte
than what would produce any useful energy
from the chemistry.
The closer to pure water . . . the more depressed
conductivity. Hence, first attempts to push energy
back into the battery will be met with lots of
resistance . . . no pun intended.
I recall reading a qualification test on
a Concorde battery document where a fully
discharged battery is dead-shorted for a
period of time after which a recharge
protocol calls for applying a higher than
normal voltage until significant recharge
current is observed. The test proceeds with
a normal constant voltage/constant current
charge. After top-off, the battery is cap-checked
and must demonstrate some minimum.
I dug around in the library but could not
come up with that document so I cannot quote
exact times and values. But note that this
is a quality test for a new battery. While
a certain level of degradation is expected,
the battery is EXPECTED to recover by some
minimum amount required for return to
service.
> so I=C3=A2=C2=C2=99ve now put it on charge with my bench power
supply at 14.4V limited to 4 amps.
> Initially the battery resistance was very high, and increasing - the
voltage was limited at 14.4V and the current dropped from 1.3 amps, to
about 1.1 amps, within a couple of minutes, and then started to ramp up,
about 1mA per second. After being on charge for an hour or so, the
current it is accepting has risen so the current limiting has kicked in,
presently at 4 amps and the terminal voltage has dropped to 14.3 V.
Yup, this is expected and you may well
recover this battery to some level for
continued service. After a 24-hour float
at 14.4, let it see idle for 24-hours
then do a cap check followed by recharge
and a load test.
> I=C3=A2=C2=C2=9Dm curious why the resistance was so high to start
with, why it has now dropped (to what seems =C3=A2=C2=C2=99normal=C3=A2
=C2=C2=99 charging behaviour to me) and also to know if this battery
has a chance of resurrection,. It=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s only a couple of
years old, so if it will soldier on after its mistreatment, I would be
happy. What are my chances, do you think?
As Lord Kelvin oft admonished, if you
don't know the numbers, what you DO know
is of limited value.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
==
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge |
In my case I had a newish deep cycle 12v100a/h battery in an inverter drop
to 3.6v...dont ask...
Anyway...the Victron charger didnt see the battery...put a 24v CTEK
intelligent charger on it got it to 15v in about 30min. Changed over to the
7amp Victron 12v smart charger...
I had just about given up after about 5 days when suddenly the charge light
went green!
Its been about a month and the battery seems fine. Maybe a bit of luck?
On Sat, 03 Feb 2024, 18:03 Alec Myers, wrote:
> Here=99s how it turned out: 12 hours on a bench PSU at 14.4v, then
12 hours
> rest, then I attached a different =9Csmart=9D charger that sh
owed the battery
> as discharged, but did proceed to engage the charging cycle. 24 hours aft
er
> that, the charger was showing the battery at 100% charge and it had enoug
h
> juice to start the engine, and I flew for about an hour.
>
> Hopefully it will maintain enough energy to power a start cycle again,
> some time next week.
>
> Thanks for the comments, Bob!
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2024, at 22:31, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 04:09 PM 1/30/2024, you wrote:
>
>
> I have an SBS-J16 battery in an aircraft in which the battery master was
> left on for two weeks (I know).
>
> When found, the open circuit terminal voltage had dropped to 2.2 volts.
A
> Dewalt sophisticated battery charger didn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t want t
o have anything to do
> with it,
>
>
> Yeah . . . many smart chargers do a pre-assessment of the target
> battery and will not take on the task unless the terminal voltage
> is above some minimum level . . . I have a couple chargers that
> do this.
>
> A temporary parallel connection of the smart-charger and some
> other voltage source, like another battery will often convince
> the charger that it's time to go to work.
>
> Now, recall the days long before RG/GlasMat batteries.
> The 'wet' stuff inside was (and still is) a dilute mixture
> of water and sulfuric acid. Pure water is a very poor
> conductor of electrons . . . but adding some
> combination of free ions like salt, sodium bicarbonate,
> or sulfuric acid to the water and it becomes a ready
> conductor of current.
>
> Recall that we could test the relative state of
> charge for a lead-acid battery by measuring the
> electrolyte's DENSITY with a hydrometer. The
> legacy float/in/glass hydrometer is generally
> calibrated in density vs. state of charge
> where electrolyte 12% greater than 1.000
> (pure water) is zero-percent; 26% is full
> charge.
>
> Note in attached figure (shamelessly stollen
> off BatteryUniversity.com), 0% state of charge
> on a 12 volt produces an open circuit reading
> on the order of 11.9 volts.
>
> You cited an open circuit voltage of 2.2 volts . . .
> Hmmmm . . . less than 0% state of charge?
> Actually, yes. Active material in the plates
> had sucked still more acid from the electrolyte
> than what would produce any useful energy
> from the chemistry.
>
> The closer to pure water . . . the more depressed
> conductivity. Hence, first attempts to push energy
> back into the battery will be met with lots of
> resistance . . . no pun intended.
>
> I recall reading a qualification test on
> a Concorde battery document where a fully
> discharged battery is dead-shorted for a
> period of time after which a recharge
> protocol calls for applying a higher than
> normal voltage until significant recharge
> current is observed. The test proceeds with
> a normal constant voltage/constant current
> charge. After top-off, the battery is cap-checked
> and must demonstrate some minimum.
>
> I dug around in the library but could not
> come up with that document so I cannot quote
> exact times and values. But note that this
> is a quality test for a new battery. While
> a certain level of degradation is expected,
> the battery is EXPECTED to recover by some
> minimum amount required for return to
> service.
>
>
> so I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve now put it on charge with my bench power
supply at 14.4V
> limited to 4 amps.
>
>
> Initially the battery resistance was very high, and increasing - the
> voltage was limited at 14.4V and the current dropped from 1.3 amps, to
> about 1.1 amps, within a couple of minutes, and then started to ramp up,
> about 1mA per second. After being on charge for an hour or so, the curren
t
> it is accepting has risen so the current limiting has kicked in, presentl
y
> at 4 amps and the terminal voltage has dropped to 14.3 V.
>
>
> Yup, this is expected and you may well
> recover this battery to some level for
> continued service. After a 24-hour float
> at 14.4, let it see idle for 24-hours
> then do a cap check followed by recharge
> and a load test.
>
>
> I=C3=A2=82=AC m curious why the resistance was so high to start with,
why it has now
> dropped (to what seems =C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2normal=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2 charging behaviour to me) and also to
> know if this battery has a chance of resurrection,. It=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2s only a couple of
> years old, so if it will soldier on after its mistreatment, I would be
> happy. What are my chances, do you think?
>
>
> As Lord Kelvin oft admonished, if you
> don't know the numbers, what you DO know
> is of limited value.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
=========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
You are right Charlie. I was wrong. I mistakenly thought the battery was
supposed to supply power to the main bus. Below are two schematics.
The top one functions the same as the OP's. The bottom schematic is simpler
but accomplishes the same goal.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513192#513192
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aux_bat_for_lightspeed_ign_130.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Lightspeed Ignition. Klaus recommends that #1 be tied to the battery - it is.
#2 can be tied to the main or essential bus. This circuit is only for #2.
Thought here is that it's a single switch (less failure points - arguable... More
complex switch.) Master switch is progressive - alternator issue - click down
to the center position. This switch would have the same mentality. It'd also
never be a "Boldface switch flip" unless all power went away on the aircraft
(Battery dead short, took out alternator and backup alternator - too many failures
in that chain for this to be boldface.)
Any circuit issues with this design, along with a diode recommendation?
Diode reversed. Whoops - sorry about that. Fixed...
Thanks!
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513194#513194
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | toggle switches better than Carling? |
| From: | "N1921R" <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com> |
After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with faston tabs
attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but they have
been discontinued.
One VAF thread: https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765/
I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and come in
configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?
I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10 configuration.
It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a larger thru hole
compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tabs which have the smaller
through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with normalized quick-connect tabs
are not stocked that I can find. The switch description says "terminal and
contact support is manufactured from a single piece of metal. The contacts are
resistance-welded to the terminal for increased mechanical strength". Bushing
dia is 12 mm which is practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32"
I am used to.
Newark page for APEM 644H/2: https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308
APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf
--------
John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential
bus.
My links here
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513195#513195
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Joe,
You mangled my schematic and made it better. I had the diode in the wrong spot.
In you configuration, in the top switch position, the engine keeps running if
the battery bus dies, runs off of the standby battery. In my drawing it didn't.
Thank you! I think that's my implementation. I want to be able to get the 2nd igntiion
as far away from anything else as possible, and that configuration does
exactly that.
Thank you for the diode recommendation as well - perfect.
Thanks!
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513196#513196
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
While the main alternator is running, the 5AH standby battery should be
connected to the main bus to keep the standby battery charged.
My last schematic accomplishes that with only a diode. There is no concern
of parasitic aux battery drain because the diode has infinitesimal reverse leakage
current.
If the switch is closed, Ignition 2 will draw current from the source with the
highest voltage, which is normally the main bus, not the aux battery.
The definition of infinitesimal is the distance that an aircraft carrier sinks
into the water when a house fly lands on its deck. :-)
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513197#513197
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
Nikkai (NKK) switches seem good to me and they are available in fast on
configuration.
On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 3:58=AFPM N1921R wrot
e:
>
>
> After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with fasto
n
> tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but
> they have been discontinued.
>
> One VAF thread:
> https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.17276
5/
>
> I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and
> come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?
>
> I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10
> configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a
> larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tab
s
> which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with
> normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch
> description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a
> single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal
> for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is
> practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to.
>
> Newark page for APEM 644H/2:
> https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308
>
> APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf
>
> --------
> John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
> Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on
> engine/essential bus.
> My links here
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513195#513195
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 6:58=AFPM N1921R wrot
e:
>
>
> After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with fasto
n
> tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but
> they have been discontinued.
>
> One VAF thread:
> https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.17276
5/
>
> I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and
> come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?
>
> I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10
> configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a
> larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tab
s
> which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with
> normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch
> description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a
> single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal
> for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is
> practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to.
>
> Newark page for APEM 644H/2:
> https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308
>
> APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf
>
> --------
> John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
> Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on
> engine/essential bus.
> My links here
>
>
> Hi John,
Did you read the entirety of that VAF thread? Might be worth your time to
go back and re-read it, assigning weight to what's significant. Your
takeaway about hollow rivets might be the most insignificant thing in the
thread. ;-) There are also some criticisms of supposed failure points where
the responder got the failure point wrong. Only one responder mentioned
multiple failures; that could have been a bad batch of switches, or 'pilot
error'. Consider that quite a few of us have seen failures of milspec
circuit breakers; does that mean *everyone* should find a different circuit
breaker?
(I was the 1st responder to that VAF thread.)
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew S. Whiting" <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> |
| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
At 11:15 AM 2/4/2024, you wrote:
>On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 6:58=AFPM N1921R
><RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>"N1921R" <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com>
>
>After reading on VAF about failures of Carling
>toggle switches with faston tabs attached with
>hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS
>but they have been=C2 discontinued.
>
>One VAF thread:
>https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765
/
>
>I'd like to find good quality toggle switches
>that use faston tabs and come in configurations
>like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?
Failed after 660 hrs??? How many years of service and
under what manner of environmental/service stress? Was
root cause for the failure skillfully diagnosed?
I've studied and resolved dozens of 'contact failures'
in a constellation of relays and switches that
ranged from hardware-store to mil-spec devices.
There were very few instances wherein
studies were the basis for 'upgrading' a
failed device.
The Carling switch configuration under discussion
has been used in very high volumes in aircraft
for decades. We're just making the change-over
to those switches (with rocker actuators)
at Cessna when I worked there in 1965.
Yes, there were field failures but relatively
rare in the grand scheme of things with majority
of failures attributable to conditions external
to the switch . . . moisture, bad
terminal crimp, poor fast-on-grip, etc.
So what's the benchmark for satisfactory
service life? Is the failure of any switch
a potential for uncomfortable termination
of flight? If so, what about the myriad
of peripheral components of that system?
Had a reader many moons ago who was worried
about the quality of his landing light
switch . . . I had to remind him, "You do
know those bulbs burn out sometime."
Do your FMEA and strive to have no single
failure become a hazard to comfortable
completion of flight.
Did a study on roll trim relays on Beechjets
way back when where contacts were sticking
shut causing the occasional hard-over runaway
in roll trim.
After much study and bench tests I discovered
a design consideration that didn't manifest
until a redesign of the trim system replaced
legacy 10A relays (mil-spec no less) with
a 5A relay (also mil-spec). I discovered
that arcing during contact bounce was
exacerbated by reflections of energy
from the far end of a shielded wire
bypassed with a fat capacitor. Clip
the shield ground or eliminate the
capacitor (neither one of which was
needed) and the problem resolved.
During the investigation of some 2+
years, I did discover that one brand
of relay was a bit more tolerant of
the abuse. Management in their infinite
wisdom purged stock of the 'bad' relay
and banned them from future purchase.
The 'good' relay was substituted and
life went on . . . that way nobody
had to change any drawings.
Yeah, that's a short story made long but
I hope it illustrates the value in having
good data as to cause/effect and cost/benefit
before changing course from a well worn pathway.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep |
discharge
At 11:25 AM 2/3/2024, you wrote:
>In my case I had a newish deep cycle=C2 12v100a/h
>battery in an inverter drop to 3.6v...dont ask...
>
>Anyway...the Victron charger didnt see the
>battery...put a 24v CTEK intelligent charger on
>it got it to 15v in about 30min. Changed over to
>the 7amp Victron 12v smart charger...
>
>I had just about given up after about 5 days
>when suddenly the charge light went green!
>
>Its been about a month and the battery seems fine. Maybe a bit of luck?
It may have been quite predictable. When
the battery is discharge to LESS than zero,
i.e. open terminal volts less than 12.0
V and SG below 1.12, then what's left of
the acid is free do mischief on the battery's
innards . . . like sulfation at an
accelerated rate.
In the fully charged state, the negative plate
consists of lead; the positive plate is
lead dioxide.
The electrolyte has a higher concentration acid
which is where chemical energy is stored.
When discharged, both the positive and negative plates
become lead sulfate; the electrolyte becomes less
acid and more water.
The lead sulfate is initially fine grains and
convertible back into hydrogen sulfide thus
increasing strength of the acid. Depending
on depth and duration of discharge, SOME of
the lead sulfate forms hard, insoluble crystals
thus diminishing battery CAPACITY.
Without a doubt, your battery has experienced
and extra-ordinary, deep-discharge which will
have consumed more of its service life than
if it had been subjected to a normal
discharge-recharge cycle.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
| From: | "N1921R" <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks guys for bringing me back to reality.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential
bus.
My links here
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513206#513206
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Joe,
Looking at this again, the reason for the 3 position switch is so that I can preflight
the system. With the two position switch, I only know that one of the
two batteries is providing power. The three position switch allows me to power
the ignition solely from the aux battery and verify its voltage under operating
load. Again, thank you for the tweak to my original intent - I like yours better!
I have a display that shows the RPM, MP, Timing and voltage of the 2nd ignition
system - powered directly from the power feeding that second ignition. If the
second ignition has power, the display has power.
I do understand the mentality of "any other pilot" flying the airplane. I counter
this a bit with "Know your equipment." I know of no 152's with dual alternators,
dual electronic ignitions, endurance buses or...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513214#513214
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Andy,
Do you intend to fly with the 2nd ignition normally on,
or normally off for emergency use only?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513217#513217
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Joe, Normally on in the full up position. This position, with your diagram would
provide charge power to the standby battery and diode selected power in the
case of either battery failing.
EMER position is the middle position, clearly marked. Useful for preflight or if
there was any other reason to get the main electrical system out of the mix.
(With that diode, not very likely, but...)
Panel is already cut, labeled and the progressive switch installed. Just wanted
a sanity check of the circuit and you helped me refine it - thanks!
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513218#513218
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
Boards are on order . . . stared at that last
iteration of the layout and finally succumbed
to an instance of 'creative destruction'. I've
re-laid the board to more conventional fabrication
philosophies. Yeah, it got a bit bigger but will
go together in minutes and 'look good'.
The assembly is now 2.2 x 0.7 inches and will
still 'house' nicely under a piece of heat
shrink.
Those interested in taking a peek can download
the proof prints at:
http://aeroelectric.com/DIY/OVM14%20mkII%20proof%20prints.pdf
The boards will be solder masked and silk screened
to facilitate kit-builders. Parts and boards will be
on hand for 15 prototypes next Thursday.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CHRIS FORDHAM <fconsult(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) |
Hi Bob
Very interested in a kit or a completed and tested one.
Thanks
Chris
On Fri., Feb. 9, 2024, 9:10 a.m. Robert L. Nuckolls, III, <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> Boards are on order . . . stared at that last
> iteration of the layout and finally succumbed
> to an instance of 'creative destruction'. I've
> re-laid the board to more conventional fabrication
> philosophies. Yeah, it got a bit bigger but will
> go together in minutes and 'look good'.
>
> The assembly is now 2.2 x 0.7 inches and will
> still 'house' nicely under a piece of heat
> shrink.
>
> Those interested in taking a peek can download
> the proof prints at:
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/DIY/OVM14%20mkII%20proof%20prints.pdf
>
>
> The boards will be solder masked and silk screened
> to facilitate kit-builders. Parts and boards will be
> on hand for 15 prototypes next Thursday.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
At 12:23 AM 2/10/2024, you wrote:
>Hello Bob,
>
>Are you looking for testers for the prototypes?
I've had numerous volunteers to be
'beta testers' of the new ovm.
Performance testing will be carried
out in my shop with respect to confirming
'the numbers' and stability of those
numbers under temperature extremes.
Field tests will explore possible
vulnerability to un-anticipated
conditions in functional dc power
systems.
They won't even need to be actively
guarding against failure of a regulator/
alternator installation.
I'll install 'em on two of my own
vehicles to simply 'watch the bus
thru a 5A breaker'. With the
ovm in the cabin and by means of
the functional verification feature,
I can exercise the critters every
time the engine is started . . .
while watching for vulnerabilities
to noise in the 'normal' mode.
So yeah, I'd be interested in having
a few of these little guys similarly
exercised in more vehicles.
Once we're reasonably satisfied
with this field qualification experiment,
'test articles' will remain property
of the tester to be installed in
their project as needed.
By using cars for the field test platforms,
we'll be able to secure a lot more
information than if first articles
went directly to airplanes.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
> snipped
>
>
> By using cars for the field test platforms,
> we'll be able to secure a lot more
> information than if first articles
> went directly to airplanes.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Hmm. Just about every car built in the last decade or two has OV & load
dump protection hard wired into either their regulator or their computer,
if the computer regulates the alternator (getting more common these days).
Does that affect the ability to gather data on the device?
Charlie
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien S <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
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HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
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--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
At 10:15 AM 2/10/2024, you wrote:
>snipped
>
>
>=C2 By using cars for the field test platforms,
>=C2 we'll be able to secure a lot more
>=C2 information than if first articles
>=C2 went directly to airplanes.
>
>
>=C2 Bob . . .
>
>Hmm. Just about every car built in the last
>decade or two has OV & load dump protection hard
>wired into either their regulator or their
>computer, if the computer regulates the
>alternator (getting more common these days).
>Does that affect the ability=C2 to gather data on the device?
Excellent question! Throughout the 30 or so
year history of the OVM project, difficulties
in the field NEVER involved a failure to respond
to an OV event . . . at least if one did, I
was not made privy to it. All of our products
have a lifetime warranty:
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/warranty.html
Difficulties I was aware of involved nuisance
tripping in both my production units and similarly
configured OV management features in B&C products.
Some DIY'ers had difficulties too which became
the rotten tomato ammunition for some of the
more vociferous antagonists here on the List.
Root cause for those event were discovered
and resolved. So what we're looking
for with this new version is unwarranted
sensitivity to normal perturbations
in DC power system bus voltage . . . generated
by the operation of vehicle accessories
of all stripe.
Based on what we've learned over the years,
I think the current design will not suffer
the same shortcomings.
But if there ARE 'rats' in the current
logic, I'd be delighted if we could chase
'em out early! Yeah, modern automotive
designs do manage the 'dragons' quite
well but put a 'scope on your car's
bus some time . . . it's as trashy
as the one in your airplane.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Al Fuller <alfuller194(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
I'll test one. I can put it in a mid-60s car that has been converted to
negative ground.
________________
Best Regards,
Al Fuller
On Sat, Feb 10, 2024, 6:10 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:23 AM 2/10/2024, you wrote:
>
> Hello Bob,
>
> Are you looking for testers for the prototypes?
>
>
> I've had numerous volunteers to be
> 'beta testers' of the new ovm.
>
> Performance testing will be carried
> out in my shop with respect to confirming
> 'the numbers' and stability of those
> numbers under temperature extremes.
>
> Field tests will explore possible
> vulnerability to un-anticipated
> conditions in functional dc power
> systems.
>
> They won't even need to be actively
> guarding against failure of a regulator/
> alternator installation.
>
> I'll install 'em on two of my own
> vehicles to simply 'watch the bus
> thru a 5A breaker'. With the
> ovm in the cabin and by means of
> the functional verification feature,
> I can exercise the critters every
> time the engine is started . . .
> while watching for vulnerabilities
> to noise in the 'normal' mode.
>
> So yeah, I'd be interested in having
> a few of these little guys similarly
> exercised in more vehicles.
>
> Once we're reasonably satisfied
> with this field qualification experiment,
> 'test articles' will remain property
> of the tester to be installed in
> their project as needed.
>
> By using cars for the field test platforms,
> we'll be able to secure a lot more
> information than if first articles
> went directly to airplanes.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | OVM-14 MkIII boards here |
Was out of pocket most of last week. I'll see
if I can get one of these puppies populated
this weekend!
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics Web Repaired - Now Back Online... |
The main Matronics Web Server had a pretty major disk corruption. After a LOT
of work I was able to rebuild it and fully restore it from a
recent backup. I am a believer in regular backups, especially now!
Sorry it took so long, but I was really pulling my hair out on this one...
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Matronics Web Repaired - Now Back Online... |
Thank you Matt, I appreciate what you do for us!
On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 2:33=AFPM Matt Dralle
wrote:
m
> >
>
> The main Matronics Web Server had a pretty major disk corruption. After
a
> LOT of work I was able to rebuild it and fully restore it from a
> recent backup. I am a believer in regular backups, especially now!
>
> Sorry it took so long, but I was really pulling my hair out on this one..
.
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | help for tap off starter cable |
| From: | Dan Newman <daniel.m.newman.au(at)gmail.com> |
Good morning
I'm in Australia, building an RV-8, with rear-mounted batteries.
For the main feed from battery to starter and alternators, I'm using
Tycab 35mm^2 flexible power and welding wire, part # ZDU1112102. =C2-On
its ends I'm using Cabac =C2-CAL 35-6 tinned coper crimp lugs.
However, I'd like to tap off this cable about half way along it to feed
to my electrical/avionics bus. =C2-One way to do it would be to just brea
k
the cable, using lugs and a 6mm stud. =C2-I'm thinking about an
alternative, stripping off about 20mm of insulation and wrapping with a
copper tag, similar to Aero-Electric Connection book Figure 9-5 flag
terminal. =C2-The wrap around the wire could be either soldered or
crimped.
Has anyone tried anything like this? =C2-Is there any reason why this
might be a bad or good idea?
Thank you for your help and advice.
Dan Newman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: help for tap off starter cable |
On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 7:20=AFPM Dan Newman <daniel.m.newman.au@gmai
l.com>
wrote:
> Good morning
>
> I'm in Australia, building an RV-8, with rear-mounted batteries.
>
> For the main feed from battery to starter and alternators, I'm using Tyca
b
> 35mm^2 flexible power and welding wire, part # ZDU1112102. On its ends I
'm
> using Cabac CAL 35-6 tinned coper crimp lugs.
>
> However, I'd like to tap off this cable about half way along it to feed t
o
> my electrical/avionics bus. One way to do it would be to just break the
> cable, using lugs and a 6mm stud. I'm thinking about an alternative,
> stripping off about 20mm of insulation and wrapping with a copper tag,
> similar to Aero-Electric Connection book Figure 9-5 flag terminal. The
> wrap around the wire could be either soldered or crimped.
>
> Has anyone tried anything like this? Is there any reason why this might
> be a bad or good idea?
>
> Thank you for your help and advice.
>
> Dan Newman
>
Hi Dan,
I wouldn't do it. Unless you're doing something very unusual in where
you're mounting your primary bus, it will logically be between the
instrument panel and the firewall; barely 18" of length difference, and
actually closer to the electrical bus than a mid-point cut/splice. If
you're trying to minimize firewall penetrations, I'd consider mounting the
starter contactor on the cold side of the firewall. Then the 'hot' side of
the starter contactor is still your distribution point, and only the
starter cable penetrates the firewall (other than control/monitoring stuff,
of course).
FWIW,
Charlie
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: help for tap off starter cable |
Hi Dan; Where are you going to tie in your ammeter? You want to measure all the
current going to and from the battery.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Dan Newman" <daniel.m.newman.au(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 5:15:18 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: help for tap off starter cable
Good morning
I'm in Australia, building an RV-8, with rear-mounted batteries.
For the main feed from battery to starter and alternators, I'm using Tycab 35mm^2
flexible power and welding wire, part # ZDU1112102. On its ends I'm using Cabac
CAL 35-6 tinned coper crimp lugs.
However, I'd like to tap off this cable about half way along it to feed to my electrical/avionics
bus. One way to do it would be to just break the cable, using
lugs and a 6mm stud. I'm thinking about an alternative, stripping off about
20mm of insulation and wrapping with a copper tag, similar to Aero-Electric Connection
book Figure 9-5 flag terminal. The wrap around the wire could be either
soldered or crimped.
Has anyone tried anything like this? Is there any reason why this might be a bad
or good idea?
Thank you for your help and advice.
Dan Newman
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: help for tap off starter cable |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
If Charlie's good advice does not fit your situation and you think it better to
make a splice, then I would NOT make a flag terminal as described in fig 9-5
because it is designed for connecting to a battery. The screw and nut are
unnecessary failure points and so is the ring terminal that is clamped to the
flag. Perhaps a variation of this method would work for you:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Tech_Tips/Solder_Lap_Splicing/Solder_Lap_Splices.html
Make the splice as you intended without cutting the large cable, except, instead
of a flag, wrap the small wire to the large cable with a fine strand and solder.
Protect the splice against vibration.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513315#513315
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rod Smith <rodsmith52(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Video camera connection |
I am trying to install a forward looking video camera in my Bearhawk cowlin
g to help with taxiing, its pretty blind over the cowling. I purchased a ba
ckup camera that installs in a 9/16" hole. I have the Garmin G3X, the video
connection on the screens is a BNC connector. Supported formats are NTSC,
PAL, and SECAM.=C2- Garmin says to connect the video with RG179 coax. The
camera video connector has a single composite video plug with a red 20 ga
pigtail coming out the back of the plug. I cut the connector off one end an
d found that the cable contains 3 24ga wires, white, black and red. I would
like to install a BNC connector at the camera so it can be disconnected fo
r cowl removal. Then use a coax cable to connect to the G3X. I have no idea
how to wire this. I have $17 invested in the camera, if someone knows of a
small camera that comes wired with a BNC connector, I am all over it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Video camera connection |
I used this adapter on the back of the G3X Touch display to connect the
backup camera's RCA plug to the G3X's BNC connector.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B082D2RGCB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_
title
It sounds like the camera you are using is similar to the one I used:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QBMNVVB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_
title
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 11:02=AFAM Rod Smith wr
ote:
> I am trying to install a forward looking video camera in my Bearhawk
> cowling to help with taxiing, its pretty blind over the cowling. I
> purchased a backup camera that installs in a 9/16" hole. I have the Garmi
n
> G3X, the video connection on the screens is a BNC connector. Supported
> formats are NTSC, PAL, and SECAM. Garmin says to connect the video with
> RG179 coax. The camera video connector has a single composite video plug
> with a red 20 ga pigtail coming out the back of the plug. I cut the
> connector off one end and found that the cable contains 3 24ga wires,
> white, black and red. I would like to install a BNC connector at the came
ra
> so it can be disconnected for cowl removal. Then use a coax cable to
> connect to the G3X. I have no idea how to wire this. I have $17 invested
in
> the camera, if someone knows of a small camera that comes wired with a BN
C
> connector, I am all over it.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mike(at)vision499.com> |
| Subject: | Radio Interference |
I have a LOM M332 aircraft engine with 2 factory magnetos and an MGL V16
radio.
Antenna is copper foil with balun epoxied into the VS
There are no filters installed.
While listening to ATIS (118.1) there is a ticking sound that is linked to
the right magneto, it goes away when right mag is switched off.
No noise when running only on left mag
While listening to ATIS I can also hear static that is not there on the
other frequencies
I cannot be 100% certain but I think the noise is new.
This noise is not present when listening to Tower (121.9)
Any ideas on what could cause this
Thanks
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Interference |
Not knowing that particular engine's characteristics makes it even more
difficult to remotely troubleshoot. But here are some generic things to
think about.
One thought (but not easiest to check) would be the condenser in the mag.
(If it *is* the condenser, you'll be putting points in the mag soon. ;-) )
If the mags are the same or similar to each other, you might be able to
swap the condensers between the mags to see if the noise moves to the other
mag.
Depending on the plug wire and plug specs, you could have damaged shielding
on a plug wire, and/or if the engine uses resistor plugs like a Lyc, you
might have a plug going bad.
Then there's the possibility of grounding issues with that mag. Have you
done a recent mag check before shutting down to be sure that killing both
mags actually kills the engine? Depending on how the plane is wired, even
that might not tell you if a P-lead shield is ungrounded.
Has anything else changed in the wiring of the plane in general? If so, the
work could have either removed a needed ground path or added one that
wasn't there before, resulting in a 'ground loop' that is affecting the
comm.
Just shots in the dark; about the best that can happen 'long distance'.
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 6:39=AFPM wrote:
> I have a LOM M332 aircraft engine with 2 factory magnetos and an MGL V16
> radio.
>
> Antenna is copper foil with balun epoxied into the VS
>
> There are no filters installed.
>
> While listening to ATIS (118.1) there is a ticking sound that is linked t
o
> the right magneto, it goes away when right mag is switched off.
>
> No noise when running only on left mag
>
> While listening to ATIS I can also hear static that is not there on the
> other frequencies
>
> I cannot be 100% certain but I think the noise is new.
>
> This noise is not present when listening to Tower (121.9)
>
> Any ideas on what could cause this
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Mike
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio Interference |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Try listening using a hand-held radio running on its own internal battery power.
If there is no ignition noise on the hand-held radio, then it can be assumed that
the noise in the aircraft radio is coming through the aircraft electrical system.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513332#513332
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Interference |
Thanks Charlie this is bankable info
On Sat, 02 Mar 2024, 23:59 Charlie England, wrote:
> Not knowing that particular engine's characteristics makes it even more
> difficult to remotely troubleshoot. But here are some generic things to
> think about.
> One thought (but not easiest to check) would be the condenser in the mag.
> (If it *is* the condenser, you'll be putting points in the mag soon. ;-)
)
> If the mags are the same or similar to each other, you might be able to
> swap the condensers between the mags to see if the noise moves to the oth
er
> mag.
> Depending on the plug wire and plug specs, you could have damaged
> shielding on a plug wire, and/or if the engine uses resistor plugs like a
> Lyc, you might have a plug going bad.
> Then there's the possibility of grounding issues with that mag. Have you
> done a recent mag check before shutting down to be sure that killing both
> mags actually kills the engine? Depending on how the plane is wired, eve
n
> that might not tell you if a P-lead shield is ungrounded.
> Has anything else changed in the wiring of the plane in general? If so,
> the work could have either removed a needed ground path or added one that
> wasn't there before, resulting in a 'ground loop' that is affecting the
> comm.
>
> Just shots in the dark; about the best that can happen 'long distance'.
>
>
>
> Virus-free.www.avast.com
>
> <#m_-8209997907517583625_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 6:39=AFPM wrote:
>
>> I have a LOM M332 aircraft engine with 2 factory magnetos and an MGL V16
>> radio.
>>
>> Antenna is copper foil with balun epoxied into the VS
>>
>> There are no filters installed.
>>
>> While listening to ATIS (118.1) there is a ticking sound that is linked
>> to the right magneto, it goes away when right mag is switched off.
>>
>> No noise when running only on left mag
>>
>> While listening to ATIS I can also hear static that is not there on the
>> other frequencies
>>
>> I cannot be 100% certain but I think the noise is new.
>>
>> This noise is not present when listening to Tower (121.9)
>>
>> Any ideas on what could cause this
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Matronics Web Repaired - Now Back Online... |
| From: | "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
Matt, I've been seeing a lot of "phpBB : Critical Error" messages lately when viewing
the AeroElectric-List web interface. Repeated forced-reloads will sometimes
cause it to load, but it's making the forum virtually unusable.
Here's a screenshot, taken after clicking the "Preview" button on this post.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513343#513343
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/capture_126.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Matronics Web Repaired - Now Back Online... |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I also have been having trouble opening the AeroElectric List.
After trying several times, I might eventually succeed.
Below is a copy of the error message that I get:
phpBB : Critical Error
Error creating new session
DEBUG MODE
SQL Error : 1062 Duplicate entry '1960' for key 2
INSERT INTO phpbb_sessions (session_id, session_user_id, session_start, session_time,
session_ip, session_page, session_logged_in, session_admin) VALUES ('9803384edc1f80f8952e3ed4a46db8bf',
1960, 1709597076, 1709597076, '619ce26f', 3,
1, 0)
Line : 187
File : sessions.php
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513344#513344
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Matronics Web Repaired - Now Back Online... |
I rarely use the web version, but I did today and I got the same errors
several times.
And if Matt sees this, I'm apparently not getting the email versions if
someone posts to to the web version.
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 6:19=AFPM user9253 wrote:
>
> I also have been having trouble opening the AeroElectric List.
> After trying several times, I might eventually succeed.
> Below is a copy of the error message that I get:
>
> phpBB : Critical Error
> Error creating new session
> DEBUG MODE
> SQL Error : 1062 Duplicate entry '1960' for key 2
>
> INSERT INTO phpbb_sessions (session_id, session_user_id, session_start,
> session_time, session_ip, session_page, session_logged_in, session_admin)
> VALUES ('9803384edc1f80f8952e3ed4a46db8bf', 1960, 1709597076, 1709597076,
> '619ce26f', 3, 1, 0)
>
> Line : 187
> File : sessions.php
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513344#513344
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Matronics Web Repaired - Now Back Online... |
| From: | "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Internet Spammers fill up the Sessions table causing this error. I've clean the
table, should work better now.
Thank you for reporting.
Matt Dralle
--------
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513346#513346
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Matronics Web Repaired - Now Back Online... |
| From: | "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
The AeroElectric-List landing page loaded OK, but when I tried to click through
to this thread, I got the error again. One reload attempt brought it up this
time.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513358#513358
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 03/06/24 |
I have not been getting the list since the below date.
Is something wring with my e-mail?
wrote:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 03/06/24 |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Matt repaired AeroElectric on Fri, 08 Mar 2024. It has been working fine since.
But nobody has posted anything since then.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513390#513390
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 03/18/24 |
Thanks Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | LM386 Output Capacitor |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Radio Shack's Engineer's Notebook by Forrest Mims is my favorite book.
One page is devoted to the LM386. I made the "Audible Alarm".
I question the value of the 22 microfarad output capacitor because
all of the other LM386 circuits on that page use 220F output capacitors.
Could that be a typo in the book and the value should be 220F?
I used three 10F capacitors in parallel and the alarm works.
Would it work better with a 220F capacitor?
I increased the value of C1 to 1F to get a lower pitched tone.
Are there any other suggestion for getting a lower pitched tone?
I have trouble hearing high frequency tones in my old age.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513398#513398
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/audible_alarm_841.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LM386 Output Capacitor |
On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 8:40=AFAM user9253 wrote:
>
> Radio Shack's Engineer's Notebook by Forrest Mims is my favorite book.
> One page is devoted to the LM386. I made the "Audible Alarm".
> I question the value of the 22 microfarad output capacitor because
> all of the other LM386 circuits on that page use 220=C2=B5F output capaci
tors.
> Could that be a typo in the book and the value should be 220=C2=B5F?
> I used three 10=C2=B5F capacitors in parallel and the alarm works.
> Would it work better with a 220=C2=B5F capacitor?
> I increased the value of C1 to 1=C2=B5F to get a lower pitched tone.
> Are there any other suggestion for getting a lower pitched tone?
> I have trouble hearing high frequency tones in my old age.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
It's been a really long time since I played with R-C filter formulas, but
I'd bet that they went with 22 instead of 220 because they didn't need low
frequency audio performance from the circuit. IIRC, the out capacitor sets
the low frequency cutoff for the output. It's a 'point design' for a
single, high frequency tone.
IIRC, the LM386 is basically a high current opamp. I'd suggest downloading
a copy of either the TI or National analog IC 'cookbook' to see circuits.
Here's a 1kHz square wave oscillator from the TI LM386 datasheet
:
[image: image.png]
The square wave will give a 'nastier' more irritating tone, which is what
you'd want for an alarm.
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LM386 Output Capacitor |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for that circuit Charlie. I will give it a try.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513400#513400
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LM386 Output Capacitor |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I made the Texas Instruments square wave oscillator, substituting a
speaker for the load resister. It works but with a high pitched tone.
So then I went back to Forrest Mims' alarm circuit and put a 10F
capacitor in parallel with C1. Now I am satisfied with the deeper tone.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513401#513401
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Instrumentation amplifiers |
Trying to measure pressure in front of my radiators to somehow get
uniform airflow through entire rad surface.
A few years ago I bought 5 MPX10DP 10kPa (1.45psi) pressure sensors
because they were relatively inexpensive.
Been measuring 1" from each corner and center. But have now added
steering vanes in # pattern -- in other words rad surface now divided
into 9 squares.
Throwing good money after bad I just ordered additional 4 MPX10DPs.
Problem with the MPX10 sensors is they are not amplified (nor
temperature compensated). Only outputs 35mV/10kPa. However outputs are
offset at about 2.5V when fed 5V. Basically wheatstone bridge.
The smarter move would have been using MPX5010DP sensors. They are
internally amplified and temperature compensated. Output between 0.5 and
4.5V. However they are considerably more expensive.
I've been using two of LM324 opamps for each sensor to handle offset and
get the amplification I'd like. Had not looked at temperature
compensation because mainly interested in relative pressures over the 5
channels.
Not expecting to see more than 20 inH2O or 5 kPa so 250x amplification
would be ideal but at least 140x to get full range from the MPX10DPs.
Now I've seen mention of INA122 (about $5+ each) and similar
instrumentation amplifiers which are designed for the MPX10DP type of
sensors. Came across the INA350CDS instrument amplifier reasonably
priced at less than $1 at Mouser. However only 50x amplification.
Thinking of making a PCB for the 9 MPX10DPs and amps.
Before I do I'm wondering if any of you have experience in this area
(differential input instrument amplifiers with output going to 0-5V
input A/D converters) and may have other suggestions. Inexpensive
differential input instrument amplifiers with digital outputs? Or some
other modern ICs I'm not aware of.
Finn
P.S. I did consider 3D printing a 9 to 1 valve to be driven by a stepper
motor and just one MPX5010DP pressure sensor but worried about how long
it would take for pressure to settle out after changing from one input
to the next. Currently logging the 5 channels 2 times per second but
able to log much faster.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | PZL 104 Wilga 80 Tachometer |
| From: | "Sharky" <mavella(at)netactive.co.za> |
Good day,
My tachometer stopped working. I tried to test with a multimeter with the engine
on if there is a signal coming from the engine but I could not notice anything
unless there is a proper way to connect the meter or check if the gauge is
faulty.
Could anyone be kind enough to advise on how I can test this?
Many thanks
Manel Cape Town[/b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513405#513405
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PZL 104 Wilga 80 Tachometer |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Is your meter capable of measuring frequency? If not, try AC.
The vast majority of electrical problems are due to bad electrical connections.
Check for a loose or corroded connection or a broken wire.
What is the make and model of the tachometer?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513406#513406
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which Oil Pressure Switch? |
| From: | "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com> |
I've been away from electrical work on my project while I installed
engine and related accessories.
I'm reviving this thread on ways to activate a hobbs meter without
using an oil pressure switch. I have an LED hobbs meter that I would
like to wire so that it will display the hours when the batt switch is on ,
but not count time. I would like the timer to begin when engine is started.
As a review from the previous threads above, I have a 3-terminal
hobbs (+, -, and Enable). The positive terminal is fed from the Main Power Bus
when batt is switched, and negative to firewall ground bus. The LED
digits illuminate with Batt switch on. I now need a way to power the
Enable terminal to begin the timer.
I have an idea but not sure of the part I need or if it even exists.
Here the plan. The positive terminal will have the 12v input from the main power
bus. Also, I will have a feed wire from the positive terminal to
the "Unknown Device". The wire will continue from the unknown
device to the Enable pin on the hobbs meter. The "Unknown Device"
will need to block power until volts are above batt voltage..
say 13V??. When the engine is started and alternator is switched on,
power will pass the unknown device and power the enable terminal of the
hobbs meter.
Does this "Unknown Device" exist, and does the plan seem feasible?
Links to PDF drawings of a simple wire diagram and also tech sheet of the
Honeywell LCD Hour meter.
Thanks for the help.
Shawn
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513410#513410
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/honeywell_lcd_hour_meter_173.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hobbs_meter_117.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which Oil Pressure Switch? |
I have a battery charger that senses vibration caused when the engine is
started, and uses that as a trigger. I wouldn't have any idea how to
procure or implement a vibration sensor as a trigger for your Hobbs, but
I'll bet some of the guys on this list do.
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28=AFAM Mudfly
wrote:
> shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com>
>
> I've been away from electrical work on my project while I installed
> engine and related accessories.
> I'm reviving this thread on ways to activate a hobbs meter without
> using an oil pressure switch. I have an LED hobbs meter that I would
> like to wire so that it will display the hours when the batt switch is on
> ,
> but not count time. I would like the timer to begin when engine is
> started.
> As a review from the previous threads above, I have a 3-terminal
> hobbs (+, -, and Enable). The positive terminal is fed from the Main
> Power Bus when batt is switched, and negative to firewall ground bus. The
> LED
> digits illuminate with Batt switch on. I now need a way to power the
> Enable terminal to begin the timer.
> I have an idea but not sure of the part I need or if it even exists.
> Here the plan. The positive terminal will have the 12v input from the
> main power bus. Also, I will have a feed wire from the positive terminal
> to
> the "Unknown Device". The wire will continue from the unknown
> device to the Enable pin on the hobbs meter. The "Unknown Device"
> will need to block power until volts are above batt voltage..
> say 13V??. When the engine is started and alternator is switched on,
> power will pass the unknown device and power the enable terminal of the
> hobbs meter.
> Does this "Unknown Device" exist, and does the plan seem feasible?
> Links to PDF drawings of a simple wire diagram and also tech sheet of the
> Honeywell LCD Hour meter.
> Thanks for the help.
> Shawn
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513410#513410
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/honeywell_lcd_hour_meter_173.pdf
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/hobbs_meter_117.pdf
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which Oil Pressure Switch? |
On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 8:28=AFAM Mudfly
wrote:
> shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com>
>
> I've been away from electrical work on my project while I installed
> engine and related accessories.
> I'm reviving this thread on ways to activate a hobbs meter without
> using an oil pressure switch. I have an LED hobbs meter that I would
> like to wire so that it will display the hours when the batt switch is on
> ,
> but not count time. I would like the timer to begin when engine is
> started.
> As a review from the previous threads above, I have a 3-terminal
> hobbs (+, -, and Enable). The positive terminal is fed from the Main
> Power Bus when batt is switched, and negative to firewall ground bus. The
> LED
> digits illuminate with Batt switch on. I now need a way to power the
> Enable terminal to begin the timer.
> I have an idea but not sure of the part I need or if it even exists.
> Here the plan. The positive terminal will have the 12v input from the
> main power bus. Also, I will have a feed wire from the positive terminal
> to
> the "Unknown Device". The wire will continue from the unknown
> device to the Enable pin on the hobbs meter. The "Unknown Device"
> will need to block power until volts are above batt voltage..
> say 13V??. When the engine is started and alternator is switched on,
> power will pass the unknown device and power the enable terminal of the
> hobbs meter.
> Does this "Unknown Device" exist, and does the plan seem feasible?
> Links to PDF drawings of a simple wire diagram and also tech sheet of the
> Honeywell LCD Hour meter.
> Thanks for the help.
> Shawn
>
> 1st thing that comes to mind is a comparator circuit
. It looks at two inputs, and outputs when the trigger input exceeds the
reference input. If you set the reference input to 13V using a voltage
regulator, then the trigger input would go above that when the alternator
comes on line. Potential downside is that the Hobbs will stop counting if
the alternator fails.
If you don't know about it, a 'Tiny Tach' works in a similar manner but has
an internal battery. The sense lead is normally wrapped around a spark plug
lead; won't work with shielded leads. But you can make it work with a
slight mod to the distributor cap on a mag.
Charlie
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | M Wilson <mike_tailwind(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which Oil Pressure Switch? |
You could modify Bob's latest overvoltage module to do what you need.=C2
- Change the trip point to 13.5 volts, and remove the SCR.
>From schematic 9003-630-IP6:Change R7 from 13.7K to 11KRemove Q15Add a wire
from U11B pin 7 to the enable input=C2- of the hour meter.
What we don't know is how much current the enable input to the hour meter d
raws.=C2- To test, place a 2.49K resistor between the enable input of the
hourmeter and 12Volts.=C2- If it starts counting, no additional changes
to the OVM need to be made.=C2-=C2-
tmail.com> wrote:
om>
I've been away from electrical work on my project while I installed
engine and related accessories.=C2-
I'm reviving this thread on ways to activate a hobbs meter without
using an oil pressure switch.=C2- I have an LED hobbs meter that I would
like to wire so that it will display the hours when the batt switch is on ,
but not count time.=C2- I would like the timer to begin when engine is st
arted.
As a review from the previous threads above, I have a 3-terminal
hobbs (+, -, and Enable).=C2- =C2- The positive terminal is fed from th
e Main Power Bus when batt is switched, and negative to firewall ground bus
. The LED
digits illuminate with Batt switch on.=C2- I now need a way to power the
Enable terminal to begin the timer.=C2-
I have an idea but not sure of the part I need or if it even exists.
Here the plan.=C2- The positive terminal will have the 12v input from the
main power bus.=C2- Also, I will have a feed wire from the positive term
inal to
the "Unknown Device".=C2- The wire will continue from the unknown
device to the Enable pin on the hobbs meter.=C2- =C2- The "Unknown Devi
ce"
will need to block power until volts are above batt voltage..
say 13V??.=C2- When the engine is started and alternator is switched on,
power will pass the unknown device and power the enable terminal of the
hobbs meter.=C2- =C2-
Does this "Unknown Device" exist, and does the plan seem feasible?
Links to PDF drawings of a simple wire diagram and also tech sheet of the
Honeywell LCD Hour meter.
Thanks for the help.
Shawn
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513410#513410
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/honeywell_lcd_hour_meter_173.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hobbs_meter_117.pdf
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which Oil Pressure Switch? |
| From: | "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com> |
Thanks for the Ideas.
Kenryan, I have seen the vibration activated hour meters. Definitely
the most simple solution. Unfortunately, I already have the Honeywell
installed in my panel and will try and make that work if I can.
Charlie, I will do some studying of the comparator circuit. Looks like
it could work.
Mike, Thanks for the details on how to modify Bob's overvoltage module.
I haven't been able to locate schematic 9003-630-IP6 you mentioned. I
will keep searching.
Shawn
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513416#513416
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which Oil Pressure Switch? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
eBay item number:364742288098 might be the device that you are looking for.
Or maybe this one from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/XH-M609-Digital-Disconnect-Discharge-Protection/dp/B07WRZSJ5M
Instructions written in Chinlish:
https://www.robotics.org.za/XH-M609
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513417#513417
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which Oil Pressure Switch? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I used the XH-M609 for a low voltage shutoff and posted about it here with directions:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16776629&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start
I believe that the XH-M609 can also detect high voltage, but am not sure.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513418#513418
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which Oil Pressure Switch? |
| From: | "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com> |
[quote="user9253"]eBay item number:364742288098 might be the device that you are
looking for.
Or maybe this one from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/XH-M609-Digital-Disconnect-Discharge-Protection/dp/B07WRZSJ5M
Instructions written in Chinlish:
https://www.robotics.org.za/XH-M609[/quote]
December 23, 2023 - March 26, 2024
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-rp