Aerobatic-Archive.digest.vol-aa
August 22, 1999 - September 19, 2001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 925-606-1001) |
Welcome to the new Aerobatic-List at Matronics!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 925-606-1001) |
| Subject: | New Email Lists Added to the Matronics Server!! |
Dear Listers,
In the spirit of the existing and extremely popular Internet Email Lists
currently hosted at Matronics such at the RV-List, Zenith-List, and Kolb-List,
I have just added a number of new Lists and cordially invite everyone to have a
look at the long list of Forums now available. Email Discussion Lists now
include the following categories:
aerobatic-list
aviation-list
beech-list
cessna-list
ez-list
glasair-list
homebuilt-list
kolb-list
lancair-list
piper-list
rocket-list
rv-list
sailplane-list
seaplane-list
ultralight-list
warbird-list
yak-list
zenith-list
These Lists all include both a real-time distribution as well as a daily
"digest" version. All Lists also include archive files that can be searched
using the custom designed high speed web search engine. The archives may also
be viewed directly using the custom browsing interface.
All of these services are brought to you Free of Charge compliments of
Matronics, although voluntary contributions are always graciously accepted
using a Secure Web Contribution Web Page.
I encourage you to surf over and have a look at the Email List Web sites
and subscribe to as many of the available Lists as you wish. There is an
extremely handy and easy to use web page now for subscribing and unsubscribing
to your favorite Forums. Here are a couple of URLs to check out:
http://www.matronics.com/other.html Main Email List Web Site
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe List Subscription Form
http://www.matronics.com/contribution Secure Contribution Site
I look forward to seeing you on the Lists and to our future discussions. If
you've ever been subscribed to the RV-List or any of the other Lists at
Matronics, you already know the quality and "family" atmosphere that is
typified by these Lists.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Snead <das1252(at)ksu.edu> |
Listers,
Hey there, I'm new to this list . . . has there been much activity?
Doug
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dylan Caldwell <macquistan(at)ameritech.net> |
Doug,
I think you may have made the first posting....
Dylan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Snead <das1252(at)ksu.edu> |
Dylan,
Guess we can't clutter up the list with small talk too bad yet. What's
your interest in aerobatics? Do you have a plane?
I've only taken 3 or 4 hours of aerobatic lessons so far. Money is a
little short right now. Are you a builder?
Doug
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "V. E. Welch" <Vwelch(at)knownet.net> |
Well guys, I might as well introduce myself. I signed up for this list yesterday
and yours are the only two posts I've seen. My name is Vince, I took a ten
hour aerobatics course from Mudry Aviation (The French Connection) in Florida
3 or 4 years ago. I've also done 5 hrs aerobatic work in T-38's. I was down
at Sky Warriors a couple of years ago for their phase one ACM (Air Combat Maneuvering).
I am currently building an RV-8A (empenage finished, just took delivery
of the wings last week. That's about all there is to tell.
What about you Dylan?
I had to send this as a separate email. For some reason the Matronics server kicks
back my replies to messages because "they contain MIME." However, I can
initiate a message with no problem. Wonder what's up with that?
Vince
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russell Duffy" <rv8(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Introductions |
Introductions do seem like a good way to start off.
I'm building an RV-8 and hope to be flying by next Spring. My only aerobatic lessons
were at Mudry
about a year ago. What a blast! I only got a few hours in during my stay, but
plan to go back for
a few more before the -8 is ready to fly. The plane will have an inverted oil
system, but I have no
illusions of becoming an aerobatics master. I just think it will be a fun way
to unwind. I do
think it would be fun to fly in at least one basic competition some day.
Russell Duffy
Navarre, FL
RV-8, sn-587, N174KT (side rails and weldments)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Louis Willig <larywil(at)home.com> |
Hi Guys,
I guess I am # 4 or 5 to respond to the aerobatic list. After Matt
announced that he created this list I waited a few days for some responses
and saw nothing. Sure am glad Doug Snead asked the first question or we all
be waiting for something to happen. Let's all thank Matt for starting this
list. THANKS MATT.
I have an RV-4 and I am slowly working my way into doing some aerobatics.
I have about 10 hrs. in a Pitts 2 seater and 5 hrs. in a Cessna 152
Aerobat. I had a Cessna 150 for 15 years but never did any aerobatics in it
since it is not certified for anything but spins. I was also somewhat
afraid to do rolls, etc. since you have to be a better aerobatic pilot in a
Cessna than in a Pitts. So, even though I had training, I never did any
aerobatics while solo. When I got my RV-4, things changed. I started off
very, very carefully and worked my way into doing a roll. Now, every time I
fly the -4 I do some rolls. I have held off doing loops because I did not
have a G-meter. On my first real attempt at a loop (" OK Louis, we're going
to really do the loop now!!") I chickened out after nosing up to about 60
degrees, so I rolled the plane 180 degrees and did a Half-Cuban 8. Believe
me, it wasn't a pretty thing to see. I just installed a G-meter this week
and will work my way into doing loops....very slowly and carefully. I love
the "idea" of doing aerobatics but I'm a chicken most of the time because I
don't have the confidence one needs to do this stuff solo.
For those of you who do not have solo experience in aerobatics, but do have
some training, read some of the articles that Van has written about
performing aerobatics in an RV. RV's are very responsive and are "aerobatic
friendly" if you stay with the maneuver you are doing. If you let the nose
stay down too long you can in over your head. If you yank too hard, you can
reduce your aircraft's "empty weight" by eliminating the excess weight of
the wings ( Oh, who needs wings anyway). So when you decide to make the
jump into aerobatics, prepare yourself mentally, read up on the subject,
and ask questions before you yank and bank.
Louis
Louis I. Willig, RV-4 - N8ZZ
larywil(at)home.com
(610) 668-4964
Philadelphia, PA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TRAASHMAN(at)webtv.net (Joe Waltz) |
| Subject: | Re: Introductions |
Hi guys. I've got my 8 up on is legs with fuel and brake systems
in. Next is elec/ instr & eng. Who was it that had 10 hrs in a
T-38? I had to give the Air Force a good part of my life to get that.
Just curious where one might come by that kind of time. My acro
exp. is AF training and I stay current with Texas Air Aces here in
Houston. We do aerial combat/ acro/ form training & upset training with
T-34s. I applaud you guys that have taken time to get training before
trying out anything crazy on your own. That is a must. If you end up
flying anything like an 8/4/Rocket you'll find that you can have a blast
and also end up in a place you don't want to be real fast. That's part
of what makes it fun for sickos like us. Let your friends know
about this list and maybe we can have some fun with it and learn
something from each other.
Joe Waltz
"Traash"
RV8 / Houston, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Day" <robday(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 09/07/99 |
Hello listers-
I guess we were all just waiting for that first post! My interest in
aerobatics is very basic. I'm currently finishing up my Instrument Rating,
and am planning to do some aero training. I'm not going to own an RV, but
would like to know the right way to loop and roll my little Zodiac once I
build and test it (I've yet to start).
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one on the list.
Robert Day
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Hiers <"craig-rv4"@http:/www.worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Introductions |
I'll make my introduction. My name is Craig Hiers, I live in
Tallahassee,FL. I just finished building an RV-4
I started and finished the -4 before I ever got my PP license.
It took a lot longer to get my ticket than I thought it would
due to work, scheduling, weather, aircraft, you name it, it was a
hold-up.
I passed my check ride three weeks ago.
I had a citabria and a instructor lined up so I could start getting
preped for the -4 as soon as I passed the checkride.
However, the instructor bailed out and moved and the flight school
cannot find another instructor. I was told they would have one starting
last thursday, I called, it's been changed to this thursday.........
will see.
As soon as I get comfortable in the -4 I plan to get some aerobatic
instruction somewhere here in Florida, but not in the summer time,
the canopy in an RV will cook you.
Craig Hiers
RV-4 N143CH -flying
Tallahassee,FL.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "V. E. Welch" <Vwelch(at)knownet.net> |
Slight typo there.......I've got 10hrs in CAP10's and 5hrs in T-34's.
However, I'd barter a valuable portion of my anatomy for some T-38 time.
:)
Vince
RV-8A Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Waltz [SMTP:TRAASHMAN(at)webtv.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Introductions
Hi guys. I've got my 8 up on is legs with fuel and brake systems
in. Next is elec/ instr & eng. Who was it that had 10 hrs in a
T-38? I had to give the Air Force a good part of my life to get that.
Just curious where one might come by that kind of time. My acro
exp. is AF training and I stay current with Texas Air Aces here in
Houston. We do aerial combat/ acro/ form training & upset training with
T-34s. I applaud you guys that have taken time to get training before
trying out anything crazy on your own. That is a must. If you end up
flying anything like an 8/4/Rocket you'll find that you can have a blast
and also end up in a place you don't want to be real fast. That's part
of what makes it fun for sickos like us. Let your friends know
about this list and maybe we can have some fun with it and learn
something from each other.
Joe Waltz
"Traash"
RV8 / Houston, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Archie" <archie97(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 09/08/99 |
T-38 is still an awesome aircraft, roll rate of 720/sec.
Thanks, taxpayers.
Archie
Hi guys. I've got my 8 up on is legs with fuel and brake systems
> in. Next I is elec/ instr & eng. Who was it that had 10 hrs in a
> T-38? had to give the Air Force a good part of my life to get that.
> Just curious where one might come by that kind of time. My acro
> exp. is AF training >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "christopher huey" <clhuey(at)sprynet.com> |
| Subject: | Aerobatic schools |
Hi,
If anyone is interested in aerobatic schools in their area look at the
International Aerobatic Club website:
http://acro.harvard.edu/IAC/
Lots of info on Acro in general.
C.H.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Two MORE Email Lists at Matronics... |
Dear Listers,
At the request of a couple of members, I have added two more Email Lists to
the Servers here at Matronics. These include:
avionics-list(at)matronics.com
Aircraft Avionics related topics such as Radios, GPSs, VSIs, DMEs, etc.
engines-list(at)matronics.com
Aircraft Engine related topics such as Lycomings, Auto conversions, etc.
As usual, the new lists have full archive searching and browsing capabilities.
You may subscribe to the new lists by using the Web-Based subscription form
at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Compton" <rdcompton(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitts S-1 For Sale |
I've got a Pitts S-1C for sale. It was built in 1971, but was majored
modified in 1986 as follows:
-- HIO-360, 620hrs SMOH
-- Inverted fuel and oil
-- Smoke system
-- Symmetrical wings/ 4 ailerons/ spades
-- Sighting Device
-- Lexan sides and belly
The plane has a Hooker harness, Haigh tailwheel, 8amp vacuum pad alternator,
Valcom radio.
Plane is hangared at Milton, Florida ( 2R4 )
Asking $25,500.
If interested, please respond off-list to rdcompton(at)earthlink.net
Thanks,
Randy Compton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | JPI vs. Matronics Settlement Reached... |
Dear Listers,
After seven months of negotiations, JP Instruments, Inc. and Matronics
have reached a mutually agreeable settlement. As most of you are aware,
in February of this year, JP Instruments, Inc. alleged that Matronics'
use of the trademark "FuelScan" with its aircraft fuel management system
infringed upon JP Instruments, Inc's trademark "Scanner" for engine
temperature indicators. JP Instruments, Inc. requested that Matronics
discontinue the use of the "FuelScan" mark. After considerable
negotiations, we have come to an agreement whereby JP Instruments, Inc.
will purchase the FuelScan trademark and, if necessary, assist in paying
the cost of Matronics' adoption of a new trademark. Matronics will
continue to sell and market its aircraft fuel management system under
the FuelScan trademark until a phase-out period of up to one year is
completed. This will allow Matronics time to sell out its current stock
of units marked with the FuelScan trademark and to develop a new
trademark.
While negotiations have been a bit trying at times, I would like to say
that I am satisfied with the outcome, and feel that JP Instruments, Inc.
has treated Matronics and me fairly in this matter. Furthermore, I
would encourage you to consider JP Instruments for your aircraft
avionics in the future as they manufacture an excellent product line.
Finally, I would like to thank everyone from around the world for their
support and consideration in this matter. I was quite moved by the
support - both financial and in the form of letters and comments - that
builders and pilots provided me and my company during this time. I
never felt alone during this period, and so very much appreciated the
encouragement from thousands of my friends! Thank you so very much!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
President, Matronics
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <gretz_aero(at)h2net.net> |
list-aviation ,
list-avionics ,
list-beech ,
list-cessna ,
list-ez ,
list-glasair ,
list-homebuilt ,
list-kolb ,
list-lancair ,
list-piper ,
list-rocket ,
list-rvcanada ,
list-seaplane ,
list-tailwind ,
list-warbird ,
list-yak ,
list-zenith
| Subject: | Heated Pitot Tubes |
Greetings to the List,
I just received a new supply of heated pitot tubes. They are the
PH502-12CR (this used to be called the AN5812), and the AN5814-1. Both
styles of these pitot tubes are 12 volt and only come in a chrome
finish. The PH502-12CR has only the dynamic source for the air speed
indicator, but the AN5814 has a heated static source as well and it
looks good. I sell the PH502-12CR for $135 and the AN5814 is $199.
I also sell the mounting bracket kits to hold the pitot to your
aircraft. These are also available in the same chrome finish as the
pitot tubes to make a beautiful installation. These mouning bracket kits
come with all the parts needed for the installation and come with some
detailed instructions and photos of the process. This kit will work on
either a metal airplane or composite. The price of the mounting bracket
kits is $105.
All of my prices INCLUDE shipping in the US.
I have other products that may be of interest to you. If you would like
a set of flyers on my products, provide me with you US Postal Mail
address and I will send you a set.
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
3664 East Lake Drive
Littleton, CO 80121
303-770-3811
gretz_aero(at)h2net.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | [Please Read] List Fund Raiser Continues; LOC #1 December |
1st!
Greetings Listers!
Don't forget the 1999 List Fund Raiser is still in progress and there is
still plenty of time to make a Contribution and assure yourself a place
on on the first List Of Contributors (LOC)! I will post the first LOC
on December 1st and it will detail everyone that has generously made a
Contribution so far this year!!
It costs a great deal to maintain the Email and Web server systems and
high-speed Internet connection that provide the Email List services
found here. I won't even mention the many, many hours I spend each week
running the Lists, doing backups, handling subscription requests, and
creating new email and web features and services such as the Archive
Search Engine, and Archive Browser... Whoops; I think I just did! :-)
This year's Fund Raiser started out pretty slow and I was starting to
think that no one appreciated me anymore... ;-) But, in the last week
or so things have really started to pick up! So if you haven't made a
Contribution yet this year, why not join your email List friends and
make a contribution today to support the continued operation of these
Lists!
There are two easy methods for making your Contribution:
* Make a SSL Secure Web Contribution using your Visa or MasterCard,
surf over to:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution.html
* Make a Contribution by check, send US Mail to:
Matronics
c/o Matt Dralle
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
I would like to sincerely thank everyone who has already made a
Contribution so far this year! I greatly appreciate your generosity and
support and want you to know that these Lists have been made possible
directly by *YOU*!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Your Email List Administrator
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | 1999 List of Contributors #1 and a Special Thank You Message!! |
Dear Listers,
I would like to personally thank each and everyone that has contributed
this year to 1999 List Fund Raiser! As you can see from the list of
names below, there were many, many generous people from the Lists this
time around and I want everyone to know just how much your support has
meant to me. The list of members below includes those that have
contributed during this year's List Fund Raiser as well as those that
have contributed throughout the year and also those that made a donation
to my Legal Defense Fund earlier in the year that was sponsored my our
own Bob Nuckolls of Aero Electric.
I want everyone to know just how much it means to me to receive the type
of financial support for these Lists that I have this year. As the Lists
have grown so much over the last few years, so have the equipment costs
as well as the monthly costs such as the Internet connectivity. Your
generosity during the Fund Raiser and throughout the year, truly makes
the continued operation, and more importantly, the continued upgrade and
improvement of these aviation-related services directly possible. That
is the bottom line. Please accept my most sincere appreciation of the
amazing and, at times, overwhelming generosity of so many of you
wonderful people! Thank you!!
For those of you that didn't quite get your contribution in on time for
this first List of Contributors - be it by check or by credit card - I
will be posting a followup List of Contributors #2 for 1999 in a few
weeks to make sure that I properly acknowledge each and everyone of the
generous List members. One last time, the addresses to make a contribution
are:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or
Matt Dralle
c/o Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Finally, thank you all so much for your support this year both in terms
of the financial contribution but also in the form of the letters and
moral support during what can only be categorized as a very stressful and
unsettling time. And I think you know what I'm referring to... Your
support and encouragement meant more to me than you'll ever know. I felt
as if I had 2500 friends all behind me, and that's a *powerful* force!
Well done one and all! Thank you!
Best regards for the upcoming year.
Your Email List Administrator,
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Builder #1763
=================== 1999 List of Contributors #1 ====================
Abell, John
Acker, Rob
Adams, Bob
Adamson, Larry
Ahamer, Karl
Albachten, Rudy III
Alcazar, Jesus
Allen, Brent
Allison, Steven
Ammeter, John
Amundsen, Blair
Anderson, Edward
Armstrong, Robert
Arnold, James
Aronson, David
Ashford, James
Ashton, Kent
Atkinson, Harold
Baggett, Robert
Baker, Gary
Baker, Ray
Baldwin, James
Barlow, Melvin
Barnes, Thomas
Barnes, Tom
Barnhart, Dave
Barrenechea, Godo
Battles, Brenton
BB Diversified Services, LTD
Bechtel, Amos
Bell, Bruce
Belted Air Power LTD.
Benhan, Dallas
Bennett, Peter
Besing, Paul
Bieber, Mike
Bilodeau, Paul
Bird, Carroll
Blanton, Stan
Bleier, Roger
Blomgren, Jack
Blum, Ronald
Boadright, Kyle
Boardman, Don III
Boatright, Kyle
Boatright, Robert
Bodie, Pete
Bonesteel, Wayne
Booze, Gregory
Borne, Charles
Bourgeois, Rion
Bourne, Larry
Bovan Pe, Vaso
Bowen, Larry
Bowen, Miles
Bower, Bob
Bowhay, Eustace
Bowman, Brian R
Boyd, Rodney
Branscomb, Warren
Bray, Garrett
Brian Lloyd
Brick, John
Bridgham, David
Brogley, Mike
Brooks, Chris
Brooks, John
Brott, Marvin
Brown, Kent
Brown, Scott
Buckwalter, David - Avionics Systems
Burlingame, Ralph
Burnham, Dave
Calhoun, Ronald
Calvert, Jerry
Cantrell, Ken
Capen, Ralph
Cardinal, Gregory
Carey, Christopher
Carr, David
Carter, Jerry
Carter, Ron
Casey, Jeremy
Chapple, Glen
Chesnut, Bruce
Chesnut, William
Christensen, Peter
Christie, William
Churchill, Frank
Ciolino, John
Clabots, Gerald
Clark, Howard
Clark, James
Clary, Buck
Clay, Dennis
Cloughley, Bill
Cole, Ed
Colontonio, Moe
Colucci, Anthoney
Conaway, James
Cook, David Sr.
Cooley, John
Copeland, Forrest
Corder, Michael
Corriveau, Grant
Cotter, Timothy
Cox, Carson
Croby, Harry
Crosley, Richard
Cullen, Chuck
Czinkota, Garnet
Dall, Richard
Daudt, Larry
Davidson, Jeff
Davis, Christopher
Davis, Jared
Davis, Steve - The Panel Pilot
Davis, William
Day, Robert
Deffner, David
Del Peso, Jose
Derrik, Chuck
Desmond, Richard
Devine, Steven
Devlin, John
Dewees, Ron
Dial, J.R.
Dominey, Clifford
Dorsey, Bob
Downing, Jeff
Dubroc, Tommy
Dudley, Richard
Duffy, Russell
Duncan, John
Dunlap, E.T.
Dziewiontkoski, Bob
Eagleston, Ron
Eagleston, Ronald
Eastburn, James
Elder, William
Elhai, Irv
Emrath, Marty
Ensing, Dale
Ervin, Thomas
Erwin, Chip - Czech Aircraft Works
Evans, Monte
Exstrom, Daniel
Faile, David
Farrar, Jeffrey
Farris, Paul
Fetzer, George
Fiedler, Mike
Filucci, Michael - Red Dragon Aviaion
Finch, K
Flaherty, Edward
Floyd, Joseph
Ford, David
Forrest, Gerald
Forsting, Robert
Fortner, Earl
Four Star Products
Frank, Dan
Franz, Carl
Frazier, Vince
Frederick, Mark
French, Edwin
Friedman, Frank
Froehlich, Carl
Fromm, John
Fry, John
Funk, Edwin Jr.
Funnell, Augustus
George, William
Gilbert, Mark
Giusti, Roberto
Glaser, Arthur
Glass, Roy
Glover, Ken
Gold, Andy - Builder's Book Store
Goldberg, Mark
Good, Chris
Gooding, Lawrence
Goolsby, Jim
Gott, Shelby
Goudreault, Jacques
Graham, James Jr.
Grant, Jordan
Griffin, Bill
Griffin, Randy
Groom, Larry
Guillosso, Alain
Hale, Michael
Hales, Sherman
Hall, Bob
Hall, Thomas
Hamer, Steven
Hamilton, Thom
Hamilton, William
Hand, Chris
Hansen, Ronald
Hargis, Merle
Harmon, John
Harper, Malcom
Harrill, Roy
Harris, John
Hart, Daniel
Harvey, Doug
Hassall, J.C.
Hastedt, Margaret
Hatch, Fletcher III
Hatcher, Clive
Hatfield, Cecil
Hays, Wes
Henderson, George
Henderson, Randall
Heritch, Ian
Herndon, Richard
Herren, Bill
Hevern, Jerry
Hiatt, Mark
Hiers, Craig
Hinch, Christopher
Hine, Joe
Hinkley, Curtis
Hinrichsen, James
Hodge, Jack
Hodgson, Bob
Hodson, Frank
Hoffman, Carl
Holcombe, Richard
Horton, Kevin
Hoshowski, Ken
Hrycauk, Dave
Hughes, Robert
Hulen, Fred
Hundley, Richard
Hurd, James
Hurlbut, Steve
Hutcheson, Ken
Ihlenburg, Fred
Ingram, Jim
Irace, Bill
Irwin, Eric
Isler, Jerry
Ivers, James
James, Larry
Janes, Bob
Janicki, Steven
Japundza, Bob
Jeens, Ken
Johannsson, Johann
Johnson, Jackie
Johnson, Stephen
Jones, Bryan
Jones, Rob
Jones, Russ
Jonker, Bill
Jordan, Thomas
Jory, Rick
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Kayner, Dennis
Keithley, Rick
King, Da Ve
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Knievel, Gerald
Knoll, Bruce
Kosta, Michael
Kowalski, Ed
Krueger, Dan
Krueger, Scott
Kuss, Charlie
Laczko, Frank Sr.
Lamb, Richard
Lane, Kevin
Lassen, Finn
Laurence, Peter
Laverty, Mike
Lawson, John
Leaf, Dave
Lee, John
Lee, Ric
LeGare, Garry
Leggette, Len
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Lewis, Terry
Lewis, Tim
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Malczynski, Francis
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Markert, Michael
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Martin, Tom
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Melder, Frank
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Miller, Jim & Dondi - Aircraft Technical Support
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Mojzisik, Allan
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Moore, Thomas
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Morelli, Bill
Morelli, William
Morris, Daniel III
Morrison, Mark
Morrow, Dan
Moulin, Roger
Munn, Mike
Murphy, Ray Jr.
Neal, Danny
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Nelson, James
Nelson, Jim
Newell, Alan
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Nice, James
Nicely, Vincent
Norris, Rob
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Olendorf, Scott
Olson, Larry
Olson, Tom
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Owens, Laird
Palinkas, Gary
Pardue, Larry
Paulson, Craig
Peck, Bill & Kathy
Peer, Michael - Jem Aviation
Peryk, Dennis
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Petersen, Eric
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Point, Jeff
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Porter, Robert
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Reed, Derek
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--
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925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | StOrMiN3(at)aol.com |
Hello,
I have a costom made gas tank 12 gal.... 12'' deep 14''
long...22'' wide will sell for $200 its worth $350 in Aircraft Spruce and
Wicks Aircraft the whole tank is there the tank is ready to go. the tank is
$200 o.b.o.
Sincerly,
Erik H Baxter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Brittain Crowell <britt(at)fortcollins.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
Is there anyone besides me on this list?
--
Britt
--
"Smiling is not just a facial expression, its a way of life."
Michael Brittain Crowell 9-1-98
--
"The Laws of Aerodynamics are unforgiving and the ground is hard."
Michael Collins (1987)
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Michael Brittain Crowell wrote:
>
> Is there anyone besides me on this list?
Yes. I just don't have anything to add to the conversation being a rank
amateur. I manage to throw my CJ-6 around the sky in some semblence of
aerobatics but I am no threat to any competitor.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sten Svensson" <sten(at)stonab.se> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
Oh yea, me! But we might be the only ones? :-))
Sten Svensson
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Brittain Crowell <britt(at)fortcollins.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 5:56 AM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99
>
> Is there anyone besides me on this list?
> --
> Britt
> --
> "Smiling is not just a facial expression, its a way of life."
> Michael Brittain Crowell 9-1-98
> --
> "The Laws of Aerodynamics are unforgiving and the ground is hard."
> Michael Collins (1987)
>
>
> NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cjc0751(at)banet.net |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
>
> Is there anyone besides me on this list?
yea. I fly a Citabria and plan to get some aerobatic instruction.
I thought I'd join this list and see what was happening.
Not much here I guess. Maybe there's not a need for this list.
I am sort of interested to know why this list is quiet but
other lists, such as the soaring list, are active.
>
> "The Laws of Aerodynamics are unforgiving and the ground is hard."
> Michael Collins (1987)
Is this quote from Apollo 11 Michael Collins?
chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cjc0751(at)banet.net |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
> I am sort of interested to know why this list is quiet but
> other lists, such as the soaring list, are active.
my mistake.
the more active groups seem to be the USENET groups
rec.aviation.soaring and rec.aviation.aerobatics
not mailing lists.
chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 cjc0751(at)banet.net wrote:
> > Is there anyone besides me on this list?
>
> yea. I fly a Citabria and plan to get some aerobatic instruction.
> I thought I'd join this list and see what was happening.
> Not much here I guess. Maybe there's not a need for this list.
> I am sort of interested to know why this list is quiet but
> other lists, such as the soaring list, are active.
Newsgroups tend to be more broad spectrum and appeal to many people. A
mailing list seems to be better if it is more focused with probably fewer
than 1000 recipients (an interactive list). I have created both in my
lifetime and my first mailing list, info-audio, the second mailing list
ever, became a popular news group.
So what is to be the focus of this mailing list? Perhaps introductions
all around; i.e. who we are, what we fly, and our experience level; would
get the ball rolling.
I have been flying for thirty-one years. When I was 14 my father stuck me
in the left seat of our C-182 and taught me to fly. Early on I worked my
way through private, commercial, and instrument ratings. This summer I
earned my CFI.
I have worked my way through a fair number of aircraft including a 182, a
150, a 172, a Piper Comanche, a Piper PA-16 Clipper, an RV-4, a Grumman
Tiger, and a Nanchang CJ-6a (Chinese redesigned Yak-18a). I still share
the Comanche with my father and I still own a PA-16 and a CJ-6a. My
18-year-old son flys the Clipper mostly so I mostly fly the CJ-6.
I have been doing basic acro in the RV-4 and the CJ-6. I recently sold
the RV-4 so I am not using that anymore so my primary acro mount is the
CJ-6. Yes I can do rolls and spins in the Clipper, the POH (such as it
is) says so, but it really isn't for acro.
The CJ-6 is a military primary/advanced trainer on the order of the AT-6
or T-34. Performance is about the same as these aircraft. Roll rate is
about 90 degrees/second. It has reasonable performance and demands good
coordination. Right now I am just concentrating on doing mostly
positive-G basic acro. I am comfortable doing the following:
aileron rolls
barrel rolls
slow rolls
hesitation rolls (4 pt)
split-S
immelman turns
loops
reverse Cubans
Cubans
reverse Cuban eights
Cuban eights
hammerhead turns
spins
Notice I said "comfortable" and not "good." Some of my stuff is pretty
rough but it is pretty obvious what I am attempting to do and I haven't
had the airplane "depart" in quite a while. The CJ-6 doesn't have
inverted oil so negative G requires me to plan to wash the aiplane when I
am done flying.
So, that is where I am at this point. I would love to talk about any
aspects of aircraft and the manuvers.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "christopher huey" <clhuey(at)sprynet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
Guess you like the CJ better than the RV? How much maintenance does the CJ
require?
C.H.
----------
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com>
> To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99
> Date: Sunday, December 19, 1999 1:30 PM
>
>
> On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 cjc0751(at)banet.net wrote:
>
> > > Is there anyone besides me on this list?
> >
> > yea. I fly a Citabria and plan to get some aerobatic instruction.
> > I thought I'd join this list and see what was happening.
> > Not much here I guess. Maybe there's not a need for this list.
> > I am sort of interested to know why this list is quiet but
> > other lists, such as the soaring list, are active.
>
> Newsgroups tend to be more broad spectrum and appeal to many people. A
> mailing list seems to be better if it is more focused with probably fewer
> than 1000 recipients (an interactive list). I have created both in my
> lifetime and my first mailing list, info-audio, the second mailing list
> ever, became a popular news group.
>
> So what is to be the focus of this mailing list? Perhaps introductions
> all around; i.e. who we are, what we fly, and our experience level; would
> get the ball rolling.
>
> I have been flying for thirty-one years. When I was 14 my father stuck
me
> in the left seat of our C-182 and taught me to fly. Early on I worked my
> way through private, commercial, and instrument ratings. This summer I
> earned my CFI.
>
> I have worked my way through a fair number of aircraft including a 182, a
> 150, a 172, a Piper Comanche, a Piper PA-16 Clipper, an RV-4, a Grumman
> Tiger, and a Nanchang CJ-6a (Chinese redesigned Yak-18a). I still share
> the Comanche with my father and I still own a PA-16 and a CJ-6a. My
> 18-year-old son flys the Clipper mostly so I mostly fly the CJ-6.
>
> I have been doing basic acro in the RV-4 and the CJ-6. I recently sold
> the RV-4 so I am not using that anymore so my primary acro mount is the
> CJ-6. Yes I can do rolls and spins in the Clipper, the POH (such as it
> is) says so, but it really isn't for acro.
>
> The CJ-6 is a military primary/advanced trainer on the order of the AT-6
> or T-34. Performance is about the same as these aircraft. Roll rate is
> about 90 degrees/second. It has reasonable performance and demands good
> coordination. Right now I am just concentrating on doing mostly
> positive-G basic acro. I am comfortable doing the following:
>
> aileron rolls
> barrel rolls
> slow rolls
> hesitation rolls (4 pt)
> split-S
> immelman turns
> loops
> reverse Cubans
> Cubans
> reverse Cuban eights
> Cuban eights
> hammerhead turns
> spins
>
> Notice I said "comfortable" and not "good." Some of my stuff is pretty
> rough but it is pretty obvious what I am attempting to do and I haven't
> had the airplane "depart" in quite a while. The CJ-6 doesn't have
> inverted oil so negative G requires me to plan to wash the aiplane when I
> am done flying.
>
> So, that is where I am at this point. I would love to talk about any
> aspects of aircraft and the manuvers.
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.6513
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Arthur J. Treff" <atreff(at)worldnet.att.net> |
I am a new lurker on this list and my question is on opinions of the best
mount for acro. I currently own a Mooney which I use for 300 hours of cross
country per year. I cannot afford two planes, so I am considering an RV8 or
a Rocket for cross country flying as well as learning acro. The -4 has a
better structural track record than the -8, but it has poor fuel capacity
for cross country (I fly IFR mostly) and is small in the people as well as
the baggage areas. If $$ were no object, hell, I'd probably own a Pitts or
an Extra for the acro, and keep the Mooney. What do you think? No flames,
please. Thanks.
Arthur Treff
Bradenton, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ClipperPilot(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 12/20/99 9:27:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
atreff(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
<< The -4 has a
better structural track record than the -8, but it has poor fuel capacity
for cross country (I fly IFR mostly) and is small in the people as well as
the baggage areas. >>
Hi,
Don't think there is any evidence that one is better engineered than the
other.... there are plenty of RV-4's which have exhibited failures due to
overstressing ... not sure either is ideally suited for learning areobatics,
both a very slippery and prone to building speed rapidly in vertical
attitudes.... suggest you learn in a docile plane, and graduate up to the
all purpose model you propose...... No expert here - but doing exactly that
- learning in a decathlon, and building an Rv-8 for the future.
Tony P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JRWillJR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Pitts Builder Newsletter?? Best mount? |
Can some one tell me the contact for the Pitts newsletter. Not the computer
list but I am told there is a "printed" newsletter for builders. Not to jump
in the middle of another RV4 vs RV8 squabble but I like the 4 and do not find
myself longing for an 8. Nope, do not care for the 8, prefer the classic and
tried and true, wonderful RV4. JR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tedd McHenry" <tedd_mchenry(at)agilent.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian
> Lloyd
> So what is to be the focus of this mailing list? Perhaps
> introductions
> all around; i.e. who we are, what we fly, and our experience
> level; would
> get the ball rolling.
My name is Tedd McHenry, and I live near Vancouver, Canada. I belong to the
RV list, the RV Canada list, and the Engines list, as well as this list.
I'm building an RV-6, in which I plan to do sport aerobatics.
I'm a former Canadian air force pilot and jet QFI, so I have aerobatic
experience, but almost none in light aircraft. I have about 30 hours in
Beech Musketeers (primary air force training), another 20 hours in a Piper
Warrior, and about 20 hours in a Druine Turbi, which is what I'm currently
flying, and a couple of back/right-seat rides in RV-4s and -6s. The rest of
my time is in the Canadair Tutor (jet trainer--same airplane the Snowbirds
fly) and the deHavilland Twin Otter (SAR).
The Turbi is not aerobatic, so I'm limited to stalls, falling leafs, and
whatever else my imagination can come up with inside 0.5-2.0 Gz or so. My
latest "project" is helping some of the other pilots in RAA Chapter 85 learn
how to fly formation.
I'm keen to discuss aerobatics (and formation) with anyone--particularly
anyone who can enlighten me on the fine points of doing these things with a
big fan out front. Here are some differences I've observed so far between
aerobatics in light airplanes vice jets.
o The limited vertical penetration of most light planes means you can get in
trouble more quickly in the vertical plane. The up side is that the lower
wing loading means you can recover with a lot less altitude loss.
o Zero or negative Gz is a problem if you don't have the right fuel and oil
systems.
o Rudder co-ordination is more important with a prop. If you're not too
fussy, you can do just about any aerobatic manoeuvre in a jet with no rudder
at all.
o When you're allowed to stall the wing you can do way more cool stuff!
Stalled-wing aerobatics are prohibited in the Tutor (so, naturally, I never
tried any).
Looking forward to the discussions.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JRWillJR(at)aol.com |
You could purchase a nice Pitts S1 cheaper than you could build a RV. Keep
your Mooney, acro the Pitts. RV's are good at a lot of things but they are
not really competition acro airplanes--too fast, too slippery, not designed
for the constant rigors of competition acro. For a fun all around do just
about anything airplane they are great, thus their popularity. JR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Arthur J. Treff wrote:
> country per year. I cannot afford two planes, so I am considering an RV8 or
> a Rocket for cross country flying as well as learning acro. The -4 has a
> better structural track record than the -8, but it has poor fuel capacity
> for cross country (I fly IFR mostly) and is small in the people as well as
Why would anyone flame you for this question?
Well I have had an RV-4 (I recently sold it). I agree with the
suggestion that you start out with something a little less slippery on a
down-line. When you get an RV-4 or RV-8 pointed down, the AS builds very
quickly, especially in one with a fixed-pitch prop. At least with a CS
prop you can pull off the power to increase the drag (disk drag from the
prop disk).
The RV-4 and RV-8 have different spar designs. There was a discussion of
accidents/incidents on the RV-list and I don't think an RV-4 has ever
crashed due to catastrophic airframe failure. I would refer you to the
rv-list archives on this mail server.
Anecdotally, I can attest to the strength of the RV-4 airframe. A good
friend of mine built my RV-4 and was letting a hot-shot military pilot fly
it from the back seat. The back-seater entered a split-S from cruise.
By the time the owner got it right side up out the bottom, the aircraft
was pulling 6 Gs and the indicated airspeed was 100 mph past Vne. There
was no damage to the airframe at all. But this does point out the
slipperiness of the airframe and the need to be very careful about
airspeed control with this type of aircraft when the nose is low. For
this reason I would probably eschew the RV-4 or RV-8 as a primary acro
trainer.
Control harmony is good and the roll rate is quite nice (mine would roll
about 180 degree/sec at cruise -- 135 kts IAS). I could very comfortably
complete a 720 degree aileron roll with an initial pull-up of about 25
degrees.
The RV-6 is not as good due to Van's admonition not to do recreational
spins.
The airplanes that are good for both cross country and basic acro are
generally military trainers. The airplane you want is probably a T-34 or
a Saia Marchetti SF-260. Given the prices of certified T-34s I would lean
toword the SF-260. It is a better performer and it has some semblence of
a back seat. The SF-260s that are certified acrobatic in the US are
pretty pricey. Beware of the "cheap" ones because they are ex-military
and do not carry US certification and therefore fall under the
Experimental, Exhibition catagory which limits their usefulness for
cross-country flight.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
>
>Guess you like the CJ better than the RV? How much maintenance does the CJ
>require?
The CJ-6 requires surprisingly little maintenance. I fill it with gas and
oil and fly he heck out of it. I put almost 350 hours on it this year and
had only one problem, a problem with the valve that controls differential
pressure to the brakes for steering.
The Chinese designed it so that it is very easy to work on. Most
inspection plates have dzeus fasteners so you can get at just about
anything in a second or two. I can completely uncowl the engine in under
30 seconds. There is lots of room to get at things too.
Since the engine is designed for 73 octane fuel, it runs best on 87 octane
regular auto fuel. My last annual inspection was only $800. A first-run
factory overhauled engine is about $10,000 outright or you can convert to
the Russian M14-P engine used on the Yak-52. First-run factory overhauled
M14-P motors are about $9,000 now and the conversion is about $4,000. Many
people are going this way.
Frankly, the CJ-6 is a bargain in the operating cost area. The biggest
chunk of my operating cost is my insurance. I figure my operating costs at
around $50/hr.
If you are looking for a pure acro mount, I would go for a Yak-52. If you
want a general-purpose mount that is a good basic acro trainer, the CJ-6
fills the bill.
Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies
brian(at)lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1
http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Your Name" <llbish(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"Aerobatic-List Digest List"
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/19/99 |
Hi Brian,
What's a Cuban?? Heard of Cuban 8's but not a Cuban!
>From: Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com>
>Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99
>
>On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 cjc0751(at)banet.net wrote:
I now own a PA-16 also... used to have a Pitts S2A but that was before
wife and baby, etc... how things change!
Larry Bishop
llbish(at)worldnet.att.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/19/99 |
>
>Hi Brian,
>
>What's a Cuban?? Heard of Cuban 8's but not a Cuban!
Half a cuban eight. It is a 2/3 loop with a roll to upright on the
downline. I just call it that because the inverse, a reverse cuban, is a
half a reverse cuban eight.
Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies
brian(at)lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1
http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/20/99 |
I have an older glasair 1 TD which fits the same criteria you are looking
for well.
Its small, cheap, 165kts+ +6-3 Gs and a hellovalotafun. So its a little
interesting to land and your girlfriend cant have a big butt. Denver to
Nashville on 30 gallons in 5 hours isn't bad. I did put fuel injection on
the Lyc. 320.
Just a suggestion
Vic Jaugilas 88LW
VfJAY(at)AOL.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/20/99 |
>
>I have an older glasair 1 TD which fits the same criteria you are looking
>for well.
>
>Its small, cheap, 165kts+ +6-3 Gs and a hellovalotafun. So its a little
>interesting to land and your girlfriend cant have a big butt. Denver to
>Nashville on 30 gallons in 5 hours isn't bad. I did put fuel injection on
>the Lyc. 320.
The problem with the slick, small homebuilt aircraft is that they can
accelerate dangerously when the nose is pointed down. This makes them less
attractive as beginning acro mounts in my book. You really want something
with a healthy dose of drag so that when you have the nose pointed straight
down you aren't going to tear the wings off when you start to pull.
Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies
brian(at)lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1
http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/21/99 |
I wouldn't call it dangerously fast... but the pilot must watch red line and
pull power from about 11:00 to 7;00 on a loop or on the downline of a cuban.
In addition with a wood fixed pitch the engine drag is marginal. It is the
price of compromise. It takes 15 to 1,800 feet for speed to dissapate on a
hammerhead. Makes for BIG loops thopugh. That puts you out of THE BOX for
competition. You, however, said fun aerobatics.. and that this little toy
does with aplomb.
:-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Your Name" <llbish(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/21/99 |
OK, I'll bite... Is the reverse is an inverted cuban?? ie start right
side up and push over then roll inverted on recovery??
Larry
>Half a cuban eight. It is a 2/3 loop with a roll to upright on the
>downline. I just call it that because the inverse, a reverse cuban, is a
>half a reverse cuban eight.
>Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cuban vs. reverse Cuban |
>
> OK, I'll bite... Is the reverse is an inverted cuban?? ie start right
> side up and push over then roll inverted on recovery??
No. A reverse Cuban [eight] starts out straight and level.
1. pull to 45 d nose up on an upline;
2. roll to inverted while maintaining the 45 d upline;
3. before you run out of energy, start the pull (top half of a loop)
and pull through to straight and level again (at the same altitude
as where you started the manuver if you have done it right).
Repeat to make it a reverse cuban eight.
If I want to reverse direction in the vertical plane I prefer this manuver
to either a split-S or an immelman. This manuver is also good for
slippery airplanes where you could get yourself in trouble doing a
split-S.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Compton" <rdcompton(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitts For Sale |
I've got a Pitts S-1C for sale. Here's some info on it:
N26GS
- TTAF 630
- HIO-360 180hp 445 smoh, fully inverted fuel & oil
- Symmetrical wings, 4 ailerons, spades
- Lexan sides & belly
- Smoke system
- Sighting device
- 5 pt Hooker harness
- Haigh tailwheel
- Strut-braced horizontal tail
- Canopy
- Valcom radio
$23,900
Please contact me off-list or at 850-932-9381.
Thanks,
Randy Compton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitts For Sale |
On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Randy Compton wrote:
>
> I've got a Pitts S-1C for sale. Here's some info on it:
Looks like the ticket for someone interested in getting into some
intermediate competition.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tedd McHenry" <tedd_mchenry(at)agilent.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
> Crowell
> >
> > Is there anyone besides me on this list?
Sorry for my shockingly slow reply but, yes, I'm here too! I'm an RV-6
builder and former Canadian air force instructor pilot. I know a bit about
jet aerobatics, and nearly zip about light-plane aerobatics. But I'm keen
to learn!
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
>
>> Crowell
>> >
>> > Is there anyone besides me on this list?
>
>Sorry for my shockingly slow reply but, yes, I'm here too! I'm an RV-6
>builder and former Canadian air force instructor pilot. I know a bit about
>jet aerobatics, and nearly zip about light-plane aerobatics. But I'm keen
>to learn!
Some differences:
it rolls better to the left
Yes, those pedals by your feet DO have a function
Thrust:weight is less than 1:1
being within 3000 feet of the ground is not cause to panic
And remember, when all else fails, let go of the stick and push on the hard
rudder.
;
)
Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies
brian(at)lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1
http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tedd McHenry" <tedd_mchenry(at)agilent.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
>
> Some differences:
>
> it rolls better to the left
> Yes, those pedals by your feet DO have a function
> Thrust:weight is less than 1:1
> being within 3000 feet of the ground is not cause to panic
Good tips!
> And remember, when all else fails, let go of the stick and
> push on the hard
> rudder.
You mean you don't just reach for the handles?
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 12/17/99 |
>
>> And remember, when all else fails, let go of the stick and
>> push on the hard
>> rudder.
>
>You mean you don't just reach for the handles?
Handles? Handles? *We* don't need no steenkin' handles!
Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies
brian(at)lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1
http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Anybody know who this was? |
I hate to even recount it, but AVweb reports:
"A Pitts crashed at a California airshow Saturday, killing the pilot..."
Anybody know who this was?
Jim Ivey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anybody know who this was? |
>
>I hate to even recount it, but AVweb reports:
>"A Pitts crashed at a California airshow Saturday, killing the pilot..."
>
>Anybody know who this was?
It happened at Cable (CCB). His name was announced but I didn't recognize
it. Unfortunately it has slipped my mind.
Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies
brian(at)lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1
http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "edperry64" <edperry64(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anybody know who this was? |
According to the news his last name was Madden. I believe they said his
first name was Mark. He was from La Mesa, California. All of that info was
from the local news, I hope it is accurate.
-----Original Message-----
From: jim(at)jimivey.com <jim(at)jimivey.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 9:49 AM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Anybody know who this was?
>
>I hate to even recount it, but AVweb reports:
>"A Pitts crashed at a California airshow Saturday, killing the pilot..."
>
>Anybody know who this was?
>
>Jim Ivey
>
>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anybody know who this was? |
>
>According to the news his last name was Madden. I believe they said his
>first name was Mark. He was from La Mesa, California. All of that info was
>from the local news, I hope it is accurate.
Yes, that is the name I also heard.
Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies
brian(at)lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1
http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "christopher huey" <clhuey(at)sprynet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anybody know who this was? |
Mark Madden in a S-1 Pitts, heard it snap rolled in.
----------
> From: jim(at)jimivey.com
> To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Aerobatic-List: Anybody know who this was?
> Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 11:49 AM
>
>
> I hate to even recount it, but AVweb reports:
> "A Pitts crashed at a California airshow Saturday, killing the pilot..."
>
> Anybody know who this was?
>
> Jim Ivey
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | 1999 List of Contributors #2! |
Dear Listers,
Below is the final List of Contributors for 1999 as promised. Again, I
would like to thank everyone that made a generous contribution in 1999
to support the continued operation of these email Lists. Your support
directly makes the quality and quantity of this service possible.
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
EMail List Administrator
RV-4 Builder, #1763 - N442RV
=================== 1999 List of Contributors #2 ====================
Adamson, Arden
Allender, Patrick
Anonymous from MN
Asher, M.E.
Baxter, Rob
Bell, Doug
Bendure, Ryan
Bergh, David
Berrie, Robert
Blake, J.I.
Boucher, Michel
Bragg, Medford
Briegleb, Ross
Brietigam, Charles
Broomell, Glenn
Brusilow, Michael
Chatham, Robert
Clary, Buck
Coats, Lonnie
Cook, Craig - Golf Instruments Co.
Cooper, James
Cribb, William Jr.
Crosby, Harry
Dane, Bill Von
Dziewiontkoski, Bob
Ellenberger, Mike
Embree, Roger
Faatz, Mitch
Fasching, John
Gibbons, Robert
Glauser, David
Gold, Andy -Builder's Bookstore 10%
Gregory, Steve
Grenier, Raymond
Guarino, Michael
H., Harold - E.P.M.AV Corp
Hale, Brian
Hunt, Wallace
Johnston, Leroy
Jordon, Don
Killion, Clay
Klingmuller, Dr. L.M.
Magaw, David
Mains, Ralph
Maltby, Michael
Martin, Cliff - Martin Metal Fab
Mazataud, Hyun Sook
McBride, Duncan
McDonald, James
Mendenhall, Elbie - E.M Aviation
Mitchell, Duane
Morley, Harold
Peck, Phil
Pessel, Garnett
Rodebush, James
Ross, Jonathan
Schmidt, John
Scully, William
Smith, Steven
Spence, Stephen
Triff, Wes
Wagoner, Richard
Weaver, Brian
Wiegenstein, John
Wiley, Robert
Wilson, Donald
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Confusion Over "List of Contributors"... |
Hi Listers,
I'm really sorry for the confusion over the most recent posting of the
List of Contributors #2. List #2 contained only the contributor names
*since* the List #1 was posted. So, if you weren't on List #2, you were
likely on List #1. Below are URLs to each of the LOC #x postings.
Again, sorry for the confusion. I should have made it more clear in
the verbiage.
Thanks to everyone,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
============================= LOC #1 and #2 ================================
List of Contributors #1 - 1999
------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=29144?KEYS=list_of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO
List of Contributors #2 - 1999
------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=29144?KEYS=list_of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO
============================================================================
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle 925-606-1001 <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Whoops) Confusion Over "List of Contributors"... |
>
>Okay, here are the *real* URLs. Sorry...
>
>
>Matt Dralle
>Email List Admin.
>
>
>============================= LOC #1 and #2 ================================
>
>
> List of Contributors #1 - 1999
> ------------------------------
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=29144?KEYS=list_
>of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO
>
>
> List of Contributors #2 - 1999
> ------------------------------
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=53146?KEYS=list_
>of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=1?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=YES
>
>
>============================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re: (No, Really - Here are the URLs) Confusion Over "List |
of Contributors"...
Geeze, I can't seem to type today. Here are the *real*, *REAL* URLs.
Sorry for so many posts... Ack
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
============================= LOC #1 and #2 ================================
List of Contributors #1 - 1999
------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=29144?KEYS=list_of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=2?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO
List of Contributors #2 - 1999
------------------------------
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=53146?KEYS=list_of_con?LISTNAME=Homebuilt?HITNUMBER=1?SERIAL=11144111847?SHOWBUTTONS=NO
============================================================================
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <gretz_aero(at)h2net.net> |
list-aviation ,
list-avionics ,
list-beech ,
list-cessna ,
list-engines ,
list-ez ,
list-glasair ,
list-lancair ,
list-piper ,
list-tailwind ,
list-seaplane ,
list-yak ,
list-zenith
| Subject: | wire lacing string |
Greetings to the List,
I have eight spools of the wire lacing string I told many of you about a
few weeks ago. If any of you are interested please call, leave a
detailed message, or send an e-mail (off List), include your VISA or
MASTER CARD number, expiration date of the card, your name, address, and
how many rolls you want. FIRST EIGHT THAT CONTACT ME GET THE SPOOLS OF
STRING. The spools of string are new and $12 ea. including shipping to
a US address. This is a very low price for this product.
What is this string anyway you ask!
It is string or lacing tape used to tie up wires into bundles. It is
the most light weight, and most inexpensive product for doing this job.
I have used this type of material extensively and I really like it.. It
is extremely fast to tie and use.-- Make a clove hitch around the
bundle, and then a square knot to finish. I think you will like it as
much as I do. It is self extinguishing polyester #MIL-T-43435B, Type II,
Finish C, Size 3. In short this is what is used most often for this job.
It is flat braided so it will not cut into or deform as badly as round
string. The finish of this material makes knots stay tied. The spools
are 500 yd. spools. Granted, a spool is enough to do many airplanes, but
your will find many uses for this stuff as I have. Or, sell what you
have left over to another builder when your are done.
Thanks
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
303-770-3811
gretz_aero(at)h2net.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <gretz_aero(at)h2net.net> |
list-aviation ,
list-avionics ,
list-beech ,
list-cessna ,
list-engines ,
list-ez ,
list-glasair ,
list-homebuilt ,
list-lancair ,
list-piper ,
list-rocket ,
list-sailplane ,
list-seaplane ,
list-tailwind ,
list-ultralight ,
list-warbird ,
list-yak ,
list-zenith
| Subject: | [Fwd: RV-List: Aeroelectric.com] |
I wanted to pass this on to all of you.
Warren Gretz
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 20:24:22 -0700
From: Warren Gretz <gretz_aero(at)h2net.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Aeroelectric.com
--> RV-List message posted by: Warren Gretz
I just talked to Bob yesterday and asked him if his internet host/provider
has a problem. They do. He said he has not been able to do anything since
last Thursday. Today, Monday he was going to seek out a new provider that
hopefully will provide continous service. It may be a few more days, but he
will be back.
Warren Gretz
Fran Malczynski wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Fran Malczynski"
>
> Has any body else had a problem connecting to "Electric Bob's" website? I
> printed off a document on it last week and haven't been able to connect
> since.
>
> Fran Malczynski
> RV6 (fuse)
> Olcott, NY
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Internet Explorer and List Subscription Page Problem... |
Listers,
I have just identified a problem between any version of Microsoft's
Internet Explorer and the email List Subscription Form found at
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Please note that this problem
*ONLY* affects users of Internet Explorer! Netscape users are
*not* affected by the issue. Users of Internet Explorer should
use the Netscape browser for now until a work around can be
developed.
IMPORTANT:
If you have tried to subscribe *or* unsubscribe from any of the
following email lists using *Internet Explorer* since the announcement of
the 7 new Email Lists this past weekend, your request was not properly
received and you should resubmit the request using the Netscape
Browser, or wait until a solution for the problem with Internet Explorer
is completed. The Lists affected by the Internet Explorer issue are:
RVCanada-List
RVEurope-List
Skymaster-List
SmithMini-List
Sonerai-List
Tailwind-List
Please note that the Netscape Browser *IS NOT* affected by this problem
and all lists can be subscribed to and unsubscribed from without a
problem.
I will post a message to the Lists when I have come up with a solution
to this problem.
Sorry for the inconvenience,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
"Internet Explorer and List Subscription Page Problem..." (Feb 15, 10:19am)
| Subject: | Re: Web Subscription Page Operation for Internet Explorer |
Restored...
Dear Listers,
I have rewritten the web page and CGI code for processing List
Subscription Requests to now be more compatible with command line
limitations of Microsoft's Internet Explorer and some very
old versions of Netscape. The page seems to be working fine
now on whatever browser I try. Please feel free to resume
your normal List Subscription habits.
The URL is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
>--------------
>
>
>Listers,
>
>I have just identified a problem between any version of Microsoft's
>Internet Explorer and the email List Subscription Form found at
>http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Please note that this problem
>*ONLY* affects users of Internet Explorer! Netscape users are
>*not* affected by the issue. Users of Internet Explorer should
>use the Netscape browser for now until a work around can be
>developed.
>
>IMPORTANT:
>
>If you have tried to subscribe *or* unsubscribe from any of the
>following email lists using *Internet Explorer* since the announcement of
>the 7 new Email Lists this past weekend, your request was not properly
>received and you should resubmit the request using the Netscape
>Browser, or wait until a solution for the problem with Internet Explorer
>is completed. The Lists affected by the Internet Explorer issue are:
>
> RVCanada-List
> RVEurope-List
> Sailplane-List
> Seaplane-List
> Skymaster-List
> SmithMini-List
> Sonerai-List
> Tailwind-List
> Ultralight-List
> Warbird-List
> Yak-List
> Zenith-List
>
>
>Please note that the Netscape Browser *IS NOT* affected by this problem
>and all lists can be subscribed to and unsubscribed from without a
>problem.
>
>I will post a message to the Lists when I have come up with a solution
>to this problem.
>
>Sorry for the inconvenience,
>
>Matt Dralle
>Matronics Email List Admin.
>--------------
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com> |
list-aerobatic ,
list-aviation ,
list-avionics ,
list-beech ,
list-cessna ,
list-engines ,
list-ez ,
list-glasair ,
list-homebuilt ,
list-lancair ,
list-piper ,
list-rocket ,
list-rvcanada ,
list-seaplane ,
list-tailwind ,
list-warbird ,
list-yak ,
list-zenith
| Subject: | New Gretz Aero website! |
Greetings to all,
I am glad to announce that my new webpage is up and running. If you
would like to see the aircraft products I offer, and the information I
provide on options for equipment installed on aircraft, you may want to
check out my website. Be sure to bookmark this site as it will continue
to grow.
The webpage address is:
http://www.gretzaero.com
I hope you find it interesting.
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | NOTICE: Matronics Web Server Back Online... |
Dear Email Listers,
The Matronics Web and FTP server is finally back online! What a
nightmare... But at least its finally done and in all honesty the
system is running much better. Everything should be working now
including the Search Engine, Archive Browser, various List-related
pages, Matronics Product Pages, Online Ordering, Real Video server
and Contribution pages.
Again, I'm sorry it took so long to get things back - way longer than I
ever intended.
Have fun!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | PLEASE READ: Network Problems To Matronics... |
Dear Listers,
My ISP is upgrading their network today 4/30 and tomorrow 5/1. I
noticed that Nameservice (DNS) went down last night around 3am which
causes all sorts of problems. If your message post was rejected between
about 3am 4/30 and 1pm 4/30, please repost as it was rejected do to the
DNS being down. I've redirected my systems to a different DNS server in
the mean time and things seem to be working right now. In any case, be
aware that there may be continuing issues over the next couple of days
both posting email messages and accessing the web server.
My ISP *promises* that things are going to be so much better after the
upgrade! We'll see... ;-)
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randall Henderson" <randallh(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Room at OSH available |
Well, my on-again off-again plans for OSH are off again, at least for most
of it, so the room I had reserved will be available. This is a room with a
queen bed in a nice house with central air. The hostess, Sharon Hawkins,
provides continental breakfast. She works the EAA too so it should be
possible to catch a ride with her to and from the show when she goes. The
house is close to a bus line so you can get to/from that way too. Its
available for the whole show.
If interested, contact Sharon Hawkins, 920-232-8554.
Please email me if you get the room so I can get my deposit back.
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randall Henderson" <randallh(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Room at OSH taken |
Looks like the room I posted at OSH (Sharon Hawkins') has been taken
(Charlie, be sure to let me and/or the list know if anything changes.)
I will in fact be going but not until Friday or Saturday, and I'll just
camp. Look forward to seeing y'all!
Randall Henderson, RV-6 N6R (~100 hrs)
Portland, OR
http://www.edt.com/homewing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com> |
list-aerobatic ,
list-aviation ,
list-avionics ,
list-beech ,
list-cessna ,
list-ez ,
list-glasair ,
list-lancair ,
list-rocket ,
list-tailwind ,
list-zenith
| Subject: | Gretz Aero products web site |
Greetings Listers,
I have a web site you may be interested in looking at. All of my
products are listed there with photos and prices.
The address is http://www.gretzaero.com
I hope you like what I offer.
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allan Chong <allan(at)alum.mit.edu> |
anyone on this list? haven't gotten any mail from it.
anyway, had a real aerobatic lesson last year and was having
so much fun that i lasted through a fairly long session of
rolls and such, but looking to do a lot more.
i've spun every plane i've flown that was rated for spins
and I've finally got the tailwheel time (150hrs of TW
in citabria, maule, and cessna 120 in last year) so that
insurance companies and flight schools won't completely freak out.
any recommendations on starting out? biplanes vs. monoplanes?
looked at the Giles kitplane up in Scappoose Oregon (loved
the construction and the lightness of the thing, though
they didn't have one to fly),
browsed the ads for used Pitts S2s (great deal currently),
and feverishly read the articles on the Pitts model 12.
how much instruction am I going to need to checkout
safely in the steed of my choice?
at what point is one safe to just go out, head to 5k',
and start practicing maneuvers in a plane that would
be stressed to handle anything?
allan
--
allan(at)alum.mit.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Graham Bird" <g.bird(at)opengroup.org> |
> anyone on this list? haven't gotten any mail from it.
Well I'm here!
>
> anyway, had a real aerobatic lesson last year and was having
> so much fun that I lasted through a fairly long session of
> rolls and such, but looking to do a lot more.
> I've spun every plane I've flown that was rated for spins
> and I've finally got the tailwheel time (150hrs of TW
> in citabria, maule, and cessna 120 in last year) so that
> insurance companies and flight schools won't completely freak out.
Well done! Welcome to the world of high performance fun!!!
I started in Pitts at 170 hours and now have over 100 in S2B and S1S.
They will be a challenge form where you are now!
>
> any recommendations on starting out? biplanes vs. monoplanes?
> looked at the Giles kitplane up in Scappoose Oregon (loved
> the construction and the lightness of the thing, though
> they didn't have one to fly),
> browsed the ads for used Pitts S2s (great deal currently),
> and feverishly read the articles on the Pitts model 12.
Well I'm a Pitts S1S driver and went there because the Pitts, bang per buck is
still the best value around. As a newby, I would suggest that it will be a little
while before you would really want to contemplate a Model 12 or a Giles.
Both great machines (the 202 is probably my dream machine).
I did look at a Zlin 50, but the Pitts came up and I partnered on that, then bought
it out to sole ownership this year.
>
> how much instruction am I going to need to checkout
> safely in the steed of my choice?
> at what point is one safe to just go out, head to 5k',
> and start practicing maneuvers in a plane that would
> be stressed to handle anything?
You have the priorities right!!!! get good instruction - from someone who flies
acro and preferably has competition experience.
Join your local IAC chapter - they know the aircraft, schools and instructors to
recommend and what to avoid.
How much? Well until you feel OK and safe solo. But that is the license to learn!
I was in the IAC booth at OSH last year when a pilot asked "How many landings
in a pitts before I'll be OK". I didn't fell competent to answer so I
called over Dick Rihn. The chap asked his question again. Dick thought. "I
have 2,833 Pitts landings and I can't tell you the answer yet".
The way I did it was to get the basics (safe in the machine, know what does what
in each maneuver, COMPRENENSIVE SPIN training (incuding inverted flat and crossovers)was
to go and practice HIGH (at least 6500). get each maneuver ok, then
start putting them into a sequence, then start to fly the sequence in a confined
space (roughly equivalent to a competition box - used 1m sections to start),
then brought the height down, then get critiqued, then into a real box.
Then my first competition!!! Paso Robles last June. Delano in two weeks!
In your neck of the woods, try Mike Goulian at Hanscom.
Good luck, get GOOD INSTRUTION. Fly safe, remember you are flying a high performance
machine that does EVERYTTHING you tell it to.
Graham Bird Phone (510) 530 9008
3968 Oakmore Road Work (650) 323 7992
Oakland CA 94602 Fax (240) 214 1063
IAC Chapter 38 www.iac38.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "M T Barksdale" <skyranger(at)hartcom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 08/13/00 |
Allen: guess there are few posts to this list.
My choice would be [for reasonable price] All of the Pitts are not so
"easy" to operate.
One gets tuned in to them quickly. The Extra 300 is a dream to
fly... Wonderful
There is another Aerobatic list.. Search the web.
Mac
Mac Barksdale, DVM
4270 Aloma Ave
Suite 124-33A
Winter Park, Fl 32792
skyranger(at)hartcom.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DaveM" <dmagaw(at)att.net> |
I am relatively new to acro, currently flying a decathlon and performing
some basic acro manuevers on my own. I had 1 hour in a pitts (no takeoffs
or landings, but good air time instruction). A local Starduster is for sale
and I was wondering how this plane is and compares to others. I obviously
have not flown it, but sat in it and visibility is much better than the
Pitts. Any thoughts anyone?
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Donald Mei" <don_mei(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
Just an introduction. I thought I was the only one lurking on the list. I
suspect that now that there is some action all of the lurkers will come out.
Anyway, very brief background.
I am a private pilot with about 130 hours. I was recently signed off (not a
legal thing, but "approval" from a tailwheel instructor) in my RV-4.
To the gentleman who was curious about airplanes. My goals were this.
1)Aerobatic, fun aerobatic, I don't intend to do serious competition
although may want to do some comp stuff at some time.
2)Decent cross country machine - The RV, despite its short and thick wing is
an honest to god 180 mph x-country machine with decent range at that speed.
3)2 seat
4)Reasonably priced - well built VFR RVs with fixed pitch props can be had
for around 40k.
The RV is everything I wanted and although I only have a Citabria, and
various Cessna's to compare it against, the control harmony is outstanding.
Very fun.
Looking to begin aerobatic training soon.
Best regards to all.
Don Mei
Essex, CT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Graham Bird" <g.bird(at)opengroup.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
Looks like there are a few of us here!
I'm actually looking for an RV6. I'm president of the local IAC chapter, fly a
Pitts S1S in competition and am looking for a family (wife and I) and simple
acro ride aeroplane.
I "wrote down" a spec of two seat side-by-side, fast cross country, IFR capable,
short field, hot/high capability with the ability to give intro rides for acro
(the two seat Pitts is expensive and tandem seat!).
I thought it was a dream , but then came across the RVs. The more I looked the
more I liked them and everyone I talked to at OSH gushed about them. I talked
to the Vans folks and got a similar impression of them - great folks!
I WOULD like to hear a lot more about what the RVs are capable of, what they are
like to fly in acro, the spin characteristics etc. I have heard mixed views
on doing "Sunday acro" - but many of the negatives are form people who DON'T
fly RVs.
Cheers
> Just an introduction. I thought I was the only one lurking on
> the list. I
> suspect that now that there is some action all of the lurkers
> will come out.
> Anyway, very brief background.
>
> I am a private pilot with about 130 hours. I was recently signed
> off (not a
> legal thing, but "approval" from a tailwheel instructor) in my RV-4.
>
> To the gentleman who was curious about airplanes. My goals were this.
> 1)Aerobatic, fun aerobatic, I don't intend to do serious competition
> although may want to do some comp stuff at some time.
>
> 2)Decent cross country machine - The RV, despite its short and
> thick wing is
> an honest to god 180 mph x-country machine with decent range at
> that speed.
>
> 3)2 seat
> 4)Reasonably priced - well built VFR RVs with fixed pitch props
> can be had
> for around 40k.
>
> The RV is everything I wanted and although I only have a Citabria, and
> various Cessna's to compare it against, the control harmony is
> outstanding.
> Very fun.
>
> Looking to begin aerobatic training soon.
>
> Best regards to all.
>
> Don Mei
> Essex, CT
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
De-lurking briefly here.
One of the best aerobatic displays I've seen is a local pilot in his 180hp constant-speed
prop RV-4. It is beautiful to behold and very confidence-instilling
when the opportunity arises to ride in the back.
The RV-6 is every bit as delightful to fly as the RV-4. I was skeptical (as are
most) as to the performance of the side-by-side RV-6 but after having flown
one I've come around to deciding that this would be the version I'd want. Magnificent
handling with the extra room a side-by-side configuration offers.
I would compare the RV handling to more delightful than a Beech T-34 or Nanchang
CJ-6 (my current mount). It's a true pilot's airplane.
All this is based on my observations at high density altitudes, by the way. I
can't imagine how much more fun an RV would be at sea level.
Jim Ivey
Graham Bird wrote:
>
> Looks like there are a few of us here!
>
> I'm actually looking for an RV6. I'm president of the local IAC chapter, fly
a Pitts S1S in competition and am looking for a family (wife and I) and simple
acro ride aeroplane.
>
> I "wrote down" a spec of two seat side-by-side, fast cross country, IFR capable,
short field, hot/high capability with the ability to give intro rides for
acro (the two seat Pitts is expensive and tandem seat!).
>
> I thought it was a dream , but then came across the RVs. The more I looked the
more I liked them and everyone I talked to at OSH gushed about them. I talked
to the Vans folks and got a similar impression of them - great folks!
>
> I WOULD like to hear a lot more about what the RVs are capable of, what they
are like to fly in acro, the spin characteristics etc. I have heard mixed views
on doing "Sunday acro" - but many of the negatives are form people who DON'T
fly RVs.
>
> Cheers
>
> > Just an introduction. I thought I was the only one lurking on
> > the list. I
> > suspect that now that there is some action all of the lurkers
> > will come out.
> > Anyway, very brief background.
> >
> > I am a private pilot with about 130 hours. I was recently signed
> > off (not a
> > legal thing, but "approval" from a tailwheel instructor) in my RV-4.
> >
> > To the gentleman who was curious about airplanes. My goals were this.
> > 1)Aerobatic, fun aerobatic, I don't intend to do serious competition
> > although may want to do some comp stuff at some time.
> >
> > 2)Decent cross country machine - The RV, despite its short and
> > thick wing is
> > an honest to god 180 mph x-country machine with decent range at
> > that speed.
> >
> > 3)2 seat
> > 4)Reasonably priced - well built VFR RVs with fixed pitch props
> > can be had
> > for around 40k.
> >
> > The RV is everything I wanted and although I only have a Citabria, and
> > various Cessna's to compare it against, the control harmony is
> > outstanding.
> > Very fun.
> >
> > Looking to begin aerobatic training soon.
> >
> > Best regards to all.
> >
> > Don Mei
> > Essex, CT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul & Gerti RV-4 F-1 Rocket 006" <gertivs(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
> I WOULD like to hear a lot more about what the RVs are capable of, what
they are like to fly in acro, the spin characteristics etc. I have heard
mixed views on doing "Sunday acro" - but many of the negatives are form
people who DON'T fly RVs.
I bot my RV-4 about 5 years ago and have put 300+ hours on the plane. It
has a GPS, 0-360 w/ CS. Have been most places I care to go within 750
miles of central CA, just got back from Osh this year. Can't say enough
good things about the -4. 65% power at 12,000 is 175 kts and 8 gph. I hear
people talk about wet wing tips etc but I think its nuts. 3 hours is about
my limit to sit in one spot and that leaves another hour of gas for safety.
When I first got the plane I hoped to do some limited IAC competition. IMHO
that is possible but not particularly realistic or competitive. I have
flown a Pitts S-2B and it will blow the doors off any of the RVs. But if
you're looking for some sweet loops, rolls, Cubans the RVs is your plane. A
local pilot was a long, long ago Air Force Thunderbird. I have taken him up
many times. The first time he was screaming at the top of his lungs, so
completely happy to be flying a real airplane again. I think his reaction
sums it up.
Paul Vander Schuur
N4480S
Ripon, CA
PS. My -4 spins hard and fast. After 1 1/2 turns it takes another full
turn to stop the rotation. I understand many of the RVs have large
differences in spin charateristics between individual aircraft.
Why pay for something you could get for free?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JRWillJR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Pitts???questions |
Can someone give an opinion on the Steen Aerolab version of the S1C and also
their Super Stinker mods vs the Aviat S1S version. I am thinking to build as
my next project a S1C. Are their any opinions on this? If building a Pitts
today what kinds of mods are routinely incorporated, ex. more slanted seat
backs, cargo areas, fuel, landing gears etc? JR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DaveM" <dmagaw(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitts???questions |
I can't help you on the answers, because I am in the same place as you are
looking at a possible next project. I have a few more questions. I have an
O-290 lycoming. How would that work for a S1C? Or perhaps a Starduster 1?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: <JRWillJR(at)aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:11 AM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Pitts???questions
>
> Can someone give an opinion on the Steen Aerolab version of the S1C and
also
> their Super Stinker mods vs the Aviat S1S version. I am thinking to build
as
> my next project a S1C. Are their any opinions on this? If building a Pitts
> today what kinds of mods are routinely incorporated, ex. more slanted seat
> backs, cargo areas, fuel, landing gears etc? JR
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jah" <jah(at)abraxis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitts???questions |
I bought the plans for a Pitts S1C and the additional plans for the S1S from Steen.
I'm very impressed with the CAD work on the plans. Well worth the money.
Most of the mods I have seen are the slated seat and aluminum landing gear. I have
also heard that some builders add three inches to the fuse length for more
cockpit room.
-Jeff
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: JRWillJR(at)aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 04:11:29 EDT
>
>Can someone give an opinion on the Steen Aerolab version of the S1C and also
>their Super Stinker mods vs the Aviat S1S version. I am thinking to build as
>my next project a S1C. Are their any opinions on this? If building a Pitts
>today what kinds of mods are routinely incorporated, ex. more slanted seat
>backs, cargo areas, fuel, landing gears etc? JR
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jah" <jah(at)abraxis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitts???questions |
The plans for the Pitts S1C state that you can run 85 HP and up.
-Jeff
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "DaveM" <dmagaw(at)att.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 04:59:57 -0700
>
>I can't help you on the answers, because I am in the same place as you are
>looking at a possible next project. I have a few more questions. I have an
>O-290 lycoming. How would that work for a S1C? Or perhaps a Starduster 1?
>
>Dave
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <JRWillJR(at)aol.com>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:11 AM
>Subject: Aerobatic-List: Pitts???questions
>
>
>>
>> Can someone give an opinion on the Steen Aerolab version of the S1C and
>also
>> their Super Stinker mods vs the Aviat S1S version. I am thinking to build
>as
>> my next project a S1C. Are their any opinions on this? If building a Pitts
>> today what kinds of mods are routinely incorporated, ex. more slanted seat
>> backs, cargo areas, fuel, landing gears etc? JR
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630)
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)telus.net> |
I might as well take the bait and come out of lurk mode too...
I'm building an RV-6, with which I plan to do sport aerobatics, purely for
fun. I have some interest in doing competition, but that would be later, in
a different airplane.
I have very limited RV time, just three short flights, one each in an RV-4,
RV-6, and RV-6A. I did some simple aerobatics in the -4 (loops, rolls,
cloverleafs) and was demo-ed some more exciting stuff (snap rolls). I found
that the airplane felt very much like the the CT-114 jet trainers I flew in
the Canadian air force, which was exactly the feel I was looking for.
I can't see anything negative about doing "Sunday acro" in an RV. After
all, the airplanes were designed with that in mind. As with any airplane,
you have to stay within the limits to weight, load factor, and speed. I've
heard people say that RVs are too aerodynamically clean to learn aerobatics
in, but I don't buy it. I've taught aerobatics to scores of under-50-hour
pilots in jet trainers that are just as clean as an RV (if not cleaner). I
would say that it's foolish to experiment with aerobatics in your RV without
proper instruction, but that applies to any airplane.
> A
> local pilot was a long, long ago Air Force Thunderbird. I have taken him up
> many times. The first time he was screaming at the top of his lungs, so
> completely happy to be flying a real airplane again. I think his reaction
> sums it up.
That's pretty much how I felt during my first RV flight. I had been hoping
that I could find an airplane within my means to build that was as much fun
to fly as a jet. I knew I'd found it when I took that stick of that RV-4.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
tedd(at)telus.net
www.vansairforce.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Donald Mei" <don_mei(at)hotmail.com> |
Yes, the RVs are wonderful airplanes. To those interested in purchasing one
a few things to keep in mind.
RV-6 (side by side) pretty much handles just like an RV-4.
RV-6 is more desireable because of the SAF (Spousal Acceptance
Factor)and is priced 10 to 15k more than a comparable RV-4
Constant speed prop is good idea for anyone halfway serious about
aerobatics. RVs are fairly slick and pick up a lot of speed when you point
the nose down. That combined with a relatively low maximum maneuvering
speed (result of low stall speed which helps in other ways)means a constant
speed's ability to act as a brake makes a big difference.
Fairly benign ground handling. Twitchier than a Citabria or a Cub, but easy
enough for anyone to master.
I have heard, that as a group, RV's spin fairly nose down and that it can be
intimidating to the inexperienced. (Exactly why I haven't tried it)
I would REALLY like to hear about anyone's experience spinning RVs. Mine
stalls straight ahead, and if I screw up and let the ball get out of center
in the stall, and a wing drops, it is very easy to pick up with top rudder.
My 2 cents.
Don Mei
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lucky macy" <luckymacy(at)hotmail.com> |
my experience is that the constant speed prop in this size plane (RV6 with
160 hp o-320 & hartzell CS prop) doesn't have much/enough of a brake effect
on the down lines. Prop is too small and plane is too slick.
the wide body rv-6 spins nothing like any of the other RVs. the wide body
of the 6 messes up the airflow around the tail and has an adverse affect on
spin recovery and makes for some VERY spin rates and attitudes.
Van himself did not spin test his RV6. That model he decided to let a pro
do. The rest of the RVs are relatively easy to recover but all RVs spin
very quicky and pick up speed alarmingly, so the owners say.
>From: "Donald Mei" <don_mei(at)hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Aerobatic-List: RV
>Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:38:14 GMT
>
>
>Yes, the RVs are wonderful airplanes. To those interested in purchasing
>one
>a few things to keep in mind.
>
>RV-6 (side by side) pretty much handles just like an RV-4.
>RV-6 is more desireable because of the SAF (Spousal Acceptance
> Factor)and is priced 10 to 15k more than a comparable RV-4
>Constant speed prop is good idea for anyone halfway serious about
>aerobatics. RVs are fairly slick and pick up a lot of speed when you point
>the nose down. That combined with a relatively low maximum maneuvering
>speed (result of low stall speed which helps in other ways)means a constant
>speed's ability to act as a brake makes a big difference.
>
>Fairly benign ground handling. Twitchier than a Citabria or a Cub, but
>easy
>enough for anyone to master.
>
>I have heard, that as a group, RV's spin fairly nose down and that it can
>be
>intimidating to the inexperienced. (Exactly why I haven't tried it)
>
>I would REALLY like to hear about anyone's experience spinning RVs. Mine
>stalls straight ahead, and if I screw up and let the ball get out of center
>in the stall, and a wing drops, it is very easy to pick up with top rudder.
>
>My 2 cents.
>
>Don Mei
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Tedd McHenry wrote:
> I can't see anything negative about doing "Sunday acro" in an RV. After
> all, the airplanes were designed with that in mind. As with any airplane,
> you have to stay within the limits to weight, load factor, and speed. I've
> heard people say that RVs are too aerodynamically clean to learn aerobatics
> in, but I don't buy it.
You can learn anything in just about any airplane so long as you allow for
its limitations.
> I've taught aerobatics to scores of under-50-hour
> pilots in jet trainers that are just as clean as an RV (if not cleaner).
But your redline was probably a fair bit farther away from your operating
speeds giving you a bit more margin.
> I
> would say that it's foolish to experiment with aerobatics in your RV without
> proper instruction, but that applies to any airplane.
I agree 100%.
> > A
> > local pilot was a long, long ago Air Force Thunderbird. I have taken him up
> > many times. The first time he was screaming at the top of his lungs, so
> > completely happy to be flying a real airplane again. I think his reaction
> > sums it up.
>
> That's pretty much how I felt during my first RV flight. I had been hoping
> that I could find an airplane within my means to build that was as much fun
> to fly as a jet. I knew I'd found it when I took that stick of that RV-4.
It is a great airplane.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Donald Mei wrote:
> I would REALLY like to hear about anyone's experience spinning RVs. Mine
> stalls straight ahead, and if I screw up and let the ball get out of center
> in the stall, and a wing drops, it is very easy to pick up with top rudder.
Did you read my comments about spins in the RV's from a couple of days
ago?
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan E. Files" <bfiles(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
I could be wrong but isn't the S2B and RV 4 both rated at +6 -2 G's??
Bryan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul &
Gerti RV-4 F-1 Rocket 006
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs -
08/14/00
> I WOULD like to hear a lot more about what the RVs are capable of, what
they are like to fly in acro, the spin characteristics etc. I have heard
mixed views on doing "Sunday acro" - but many of the negatives are form
people who DON'T fly RVs.
I bot my RV-4 about 5 years ago and have put 300+ hours on the plane. It
has a GPS, 0-360 w/ CS. Have been most places I care to go within 750
miles of central CA, just got back from Osh this year. Can't say enough
good things about the -4. 65% power at 12,000 is 175 kts and 8 gph. I hear
people talk about wet wing tips etc but I think its nuts. 3 hours is about
my limit to sit in one spot and that leaves another hour of gas for safety.
When I first got the plane I hoped to do some limited IAC competition. IMHO
that is possible but not particularly realistic or competitive. I have
flown a Pitts S-2B and it will blow the doors off any of the RVs. But if
you're looking for some sweet loops, rolls, Cubans the RVs is your plane. A
local pilot was a long, long ago Air Force Thunderbird. I have taken him up
many times. The first time he was screaming at the top of his lungs, so
completely happy to be flying a real airplane again. I think his reaction
sums it up.
Paul Vander Schuur
N4480S
Ripon, CA
PS. My -4 spins hard and fast. After 1 1/2 turns it takes another full
turn to stop the rotation. I understand many of the RVs have large
differences in spin charateristics between individual aircraft.
Why pay for something you could get for free?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Bryan E. Files wrote:
>
> I could be wrong but isn't the S2B and RV 4 both rated at +6 -2 G's??
+6/-3 is standard aerobatic catagory. The RV-4 rated for +6/-3.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630)
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)telus.net> |
I have a home video (from John Ammeter) of spin testing an RV-4. It looks
pretty straightforward from the video, but "straightforward" is subjective.
All the recoveries were normal (with one minor secondary stall on one, as I
recall).
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
tedd(at)telus.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sluggo" <rdcompton(at)earthlink.net> |
I've been looking at the DR-107. Anyone out there on the aerobatic list
know anything first-hand about this machine?
I'm looking for any pro-con stuff anyone might have.
Thanks,
Randy Compton
________________________________________________________________________________
User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630)
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/14/00 |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)telus.net> |
>
>> I've taught aerobatics to scores of under-50-hour
>> pilots in jet trainers that are just as clean as an RV (if not cleaner).
>
> But your redline was probably a fair bit farther away from your operating
> speeds giving you a bit more margin.
Pretty much. All the early manoeuvres had exit speeds of 250 kias or less,
with a Vne of 412 kias, so that's a huge margin. We did hesitation rolls,
accelerating to 350 kias on the downline, which is pretty close
(percentage-wise, anyway). But we didn't teach those until later in the
course.
But it would have been an unusual occurrence for a student to miss the exit
speed by more than 25 kias, even on the basic course. If I remember
correctly, from my sole RV ride in which we did aeros, our exit speeds were
well under 150 kias, and the Vne is up around 190 or 200 kias, isn't it?
That's a pretty healthy margin.
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Tedd McHenry wrote:
> Pretty much. All the early manoeuvres had exit speeds of 250 kias or less,
> with a Vne of 412 kias, so that's a huge margin. We did hesitation rolls,
> accelerating to 350 kias on the downline, which is pretty close
> (percentage-wise, anyway). But we didn't teach those until later in the
> course.
>
> But it would have been an unusual occurrence for a student to miss the exit
> speed by more than 25 kias, even on the basic course. If I remember
> correctly, from my sole RV ride in which we did aeros, our exit speeds were
> well under 150 kias, and the Vne is up around 190 or 200 kias, isn't it?
> That's a pretty healthy margin.
If you do things correctly, there really is no problem. The problem comes
when you are just "fooling around" and blow through redline. When I redid
my instrument panel and marked the new ASI, Vne was at something like 190
KIAS. Also, the airplane will continue to accelerate past Vne with very
little effort. I really have to work at it to get my CJ6 to get up to or
past redline (although it is possible).
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.6513
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larry laporte <llapo(at)dmv.com> |
please un-subscribe to all mail list thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Foelker David J LtCol 50FTS/ADO <david.foelker(at)columbus.af.mil> |
| Subject: | RE: Czech-List: Unsubscribe |
Please unsubscribe me from Czech-List.
V/R,
David Foelker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Foelker David J LtCol 50FTS/ADO <david.foelker(at)columbus.af.mil> |
| Subject: | RV4-List: RE: Czech-List: Unsubscribe |
--> RV4-List message posted by: Foelker David J LtCol 50FTS/ADO
Please unsubscribe me from Czech-List.
V/R,
David Foelker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larry laporte <llapo(at)dmv.com> |
| Subject: | RV-List: (no subject) |
--> RV-List message posted by: larry laporte
please un-subscribe to all mail list thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Masters, Donald" <donald.masters(at)lmco.com> |
| Subject: | To: "'aerobatic-list-digest(at)matronics.com'" |
un-subscribe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JetPi9949(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 08/24/00 |
please unsubscribe me from aerobatic list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Warren Gretz <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com> |
list-aerobatic ,
list-avionics ,
list-ez , list-glasair ,
list-lancair ,
list-rocket
| Subject: | Pitot tube SPECIAL price |
Warren Gretz
Hello to the list,
I have just received a price increase from the manufacture of the AN5814
heated pitot tube. This is the heated pitot tube with the static source
in the pitot tube. I have a good supply of this pitot tube that I will
sell at the old (before price increase) price. The old price is $199,
this includes shipping in the US. After my current supply is gone, I
must increase my price to $206 which will also include shipping in the
US.
This will be on a first come first serve basis.
Check out my website for descriptions of this product and also my heated
pitot tube mounting bracket kits. You can purchase using your VISA or
MASTER CARD using my online order form, or call me in the evenings or on
weekends.
My website address is: http://www.gretzaero.com
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
303-770-3811 evenings and weekends (you may also leave a message other
times)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | A Season of Giving - Please Support Your List! |
Dear Listers,
As my good friend Al Mojzisik from the RV-List forum has pointed out in
his humorous style this morning, its time for the Annual List Fund
Raiser! For those that are new to the Lists since last year, I'd like
to just mention what its all about. I have always run the List services
here completely free of charge to the members. This includes the Email
Lists, Archive Search Engine, as well as some of the other goodies found
on the servers. My policy has always been that I will never charge a
'fee' to sign up for any of the email Lists and I have also turned down
a number potentially lucrative of 'commercial' offers to provide
advertising space either on the various web pages or on in each of the
outgoing emails. I have always graciously declined these offers,
however, because I have felt that the friendly, homey feeling of the
commercial-free site was very appealing. I have also felt that offering
the services here for free is the best way to stimulate the greatest
membership, and in my opinion, this is the most important element in the
success of a forum such as this. So, once again, I will restate my
commitment to always keeping all of the services here on the Matronics
servers free to everyone.
That being said, I must also say that running this system is far from
free for me, however. I am continually trying to provide the best, most
reliable service possible and have continued to upgrade the systems as
necessary to maintain or improve the level of service I provide. Quite
aside from the "real costs" involved in the maintenance of a service
like this, however, is the time commitment necessary to keep everything
running and time required to produce new and improved software
enhancements to make the whole experience more enjoyable for everyone.
On the average I spend 10 to 20 hours a week handling subscription
requests and related problems, maintaining the existing computer code
base, and developing new utilities for the List community.
The whole List site (web server and email server) continue to run across
the 768kb/sec DSL-based Internet connection. Connections to the servers
have generally been pretty reliable and performance has been good. Up
time for the connection has approached the 99% mark.
If you regularly enjoy the services provided here, I would ask that you
make a Contribution in any amount in which you are comfortable. Your
Contribution will be used to directly support the continued operation
and improvement of all these services, and as always, I will turn your
Contributions back into more upgrades and improvements. It is truly an
investment in the future of these Lists.
To make a SSL Secure Web Contribution using your Visa or MasterCard,
please go to the following URL and follow the simple instructions:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution.html
To make a Contribution by check, please send US Mail to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
As I have done in the past, I will post a "Contributors List" at the end
of the Fund Raiser, personally acknowledging each and everyone that has
generously made a Contribution this year!
Finally, I just want to say *Thank You* to everyone that has supported
me and my operation here this year. Your support and encouragement
means a great deal to me and I feel like I have friends literally from
all around the world!
Sincerely,
Matt Dralle
Your Email List Administrator
dralle(at)matronics.com
============================================================================
>--------------
>--> RV-List message posted by: Al Mojzisik
>
>Well folks,
>
>I hate to spring this on you without much advance warning and all but it's
>November already. For you newer List members you may not know but this is
>the time of year we all give "thanks" for all that Matte Dralle has done
>for us with this RV-List. the customary way of saying "thanks" is with a
>voluntary donation of cash through Matte's own simple and safe contribution
>hot-line at:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>It's really rather painless and actually gives you a good warm and fuzzy
>feeling inside after you have made your contribution. Now last year I
>relied heavily on guilt to get some of you harder nuts to crack to ante
>up. This year I hope that in keeping with the election year theme I can
>learn something from the experts........"It's for the children."
>
>Yes your contribution will help children everywhere learn about the high
>moral values that are inherent in the RV family of aircraft. As our young
>charges surf the Internet for information on various things that we don't
>want them to know about, they may stumble across the Matronics Website and
>become aware of the RV-List and other interesting forums that Matte
>provides. This in turn may change there lives as they see what can be
>achieved through hard work and perseverance. They will learn how the polite
>exchange of idea's between consenting adults can result in the birth of one
>(or more) of the finest aircraft in existence today. They can become aware
>of a whole world out there that had previously been unknown or out of reach
>to them. So in the interest of our children, send your contribution to
>Matte to help the RV-List live long and prosper.............Darn, got my
>tongue caught in my cheek there for a moment.
>
>Once again, you can make your contribution through credit card at:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> c/o Matt Dralle
> Matronics
> P.O. Box 347
> Livermore, CA. 94551
>
>I would like to pledge at this time that I will not place any negative
>advertising in the hope of raising funds for RV-List support. (Unless you
>folks hold out too long, then look out!) Let's have a real clean campaign
>this November and get out the contributions! AL
>--------------
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ClipperPilot(at)aol.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | List Fund Raiser Continues... |
Hello Listers!
This is just a reminder that the Annual List Fund Raiser is currently
underway. Won't you make a Contribution today to support the continued
operation and upgrade of this valuable resource? Your Contribution can
be made via a Secure SSL Internet Transaction with your Visa or
MasterCard at the URL shown below or you may send it via US Mail to the
address also listed below.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
P.O. Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you for your support! Your generosity directly makes this List
possible.
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | 2000 List Fund Raiser Underway... |
Hi Listers,
Just a quick reminder that the 2000 Email List Fund Raiser is underway
and participation so far as been good. If you haven't made your
contribution yet, won't you take a moment and make one today? The
continued operation and improvement of these services are directly
enabled by the generous contributions of its members.
You may make a contribution with either your Visa or Mastercard using
the Matronics SSL Secure website at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or with a personal check to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you to all those that have already made a contribution!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Homebuilt-List: 2000 List Fund Raiser Underway... |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Hi Listers,
Just a quick reminder that the 2000 Email List Fund Raiser is underway
and participation so far as been good. If you haven't made your
contribution yet, won't you take a moment and make one today? The
continued operation and improvement of these services are directly
enabled by the generous contributions of its members.
You may make a contribution with either your Visa or Mastercard using
the Matronics SSL Secure website at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or with a personal check to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you to all those that have already made a contribution!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Zenith-List: 2000 List Fund Raiser Underway... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Hi Listers,
Just a quick reminder that the 2000 Email List Fund Raiser is underway
and participation so far as been good. If you haven't made your
contribution yet, won't you take a moment and make one today? The
continued operation and improvement of these services are directly
enabled by the generous contributions of its members.
You may make a contribution with either your Visa or Mastercard using
the Matronics SSL Secure website at:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or with a personal check to:
c/o Matt Dralle
Matronics
PO Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Thank you to all those that have already made a contribution!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Huge Apology for "List Malfunction"... |
Dear Listers,
I am so embarrassed by the List-gone-crazy tonight! I'm not sure
exactly went wrong. I'm suspecting that someone with an email account
at msm.com may have been reposting my message from this morning over
and over again maliciously spamming the system, but I can't really
prove that.
In any case, I am hugely embarrassed and sorry for the ton of messages
that went out tonight regarding the 2000 Fund Raiser. Something went
wrong on the system or somebody did me wrong; in either case I
apologize for the huge dump of messages.
My sincerest apologies...
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | New List MIME/HTML/Enclosure Filter Implemented... |
Dear Listers,
With the pervasiveness of email applications using HTML (web formatting)
and MIME encoding such as AOL 6.0, Netscape, Eudora and others it was
clear that I needed to come up with an improved method for limiting how
messages posted to the various Lists was handled.
As of today, November 13 2000 you should be able to configure your email
program any way you like - with or without special formatting - and your
message will still be accepted my the Matronics system. Also, if you
include any sort of enclosure data, your message will also still be
accepted instead of bounced back.
But wait, it gets even better! Everything except for the plain text
will be automatically stripped from the incoming post including any
HTML, MIME, and/or enclosure data prior to redistribution. This should
serve to both ease the configuration burden on the many users, and to
increase the readability of both the posted messages and the archives.
I had a few 'bugs' with the filter on Sunday and Monday morning, so if
you received a few messages that seemed "odd", than this was probably
why.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ivey <jim(at)jimivey.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Yak-List: New List MIME/HTML/Enclosure Filter Implemented... |
Everything you need to know can be found at the following url:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution/
I just used the secure credit-card option. There is also a snail-mail
address for you old-fashioned types (i.e. back in the good old days when
folks wouldn't abscond with your credit card info) ;)
Jim Ivey
N46YK
Matt Dralle wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> With the pervasiveness of email applications using HTML (web formatting)
> and MIME encoding such as AOL 6.0, Netscape, Eudora and others it was
> clear that I needed to come up with an improved method for limiting how
> messages posted to the various Lists was handled.
>
> As of today, November 13 2000 you should be able to configure your email
> program any way you like - with or without special formatting - and your
> message will still be accepted my the Matronics system. Also, if you
> include any sort of enclosure data, your message will also still be
> accepted instead of bounced back.
>
> But wait, it gets even better! Everything except for the plain text
> will be automatically stripped from the incoming post including any
> HTML, MIME, and/or enclosure data prior to redistribution. This should
> serve to both ease the configuration burden on the many users, and to
> increase the readability of both the posted messages and the archives.
>
> I had a few 'bugs' with the filter on Sunday and Monday morning, so if
> you received a few messages that seemed "odd", than this was probably
> why.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List Admin.
>
> --
>
> Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
> Great minds discuss ideas,
> Average minds discuss events,
> Small minds discuss people...
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Broste" <spiritmoves(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List: What Listers Are Saying... |
Matt,
I think what you're doing is great for those of us flying and building Kolb
aircraft. You're probably saving Kolb a full time employee in tech support
just by providing the communication between builders. I know I have had a
half dozen questions answered here on the list and saved Kolb support a few
phone calls. You should forward this letter to Kolb, maybe they'd ante up,
too. It would be great PR for the TN Kolb a/c. Thanks a bunch, Matt!
Ken Broste
Building a Firestar
Tucson, AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 10:33 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: What Listers Are Saying...
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> During this year's List Fund Raiser I have been receiving a number of
> very nice comments from members regarding what the Lists mean to them.
> I'm sure most everyone can echo one or more of the thoughts expressed
> below. Won't you take a moment to make a Contribution to support the
> continued operation and improvment of your Lists?
>
> A special 'thank you' to everyone that has made a contribution so far
> and for all of the wonderful and supportive comments I've received!
>
>
> To make a contribution with a credit card over an SSL Secure Web Site,
> please go to the following URL:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> or, to make a contribution with a person check, please mail it to:
>
> Matronics
> c/o Matt Dralle
> PO Box 347
> Livermore, CA 94551
>
>
> Thank you!!
>
> Matt Dralle
> Email List Admin.
>
>
> ===================== Comments From List Members
========================
>
>
> * You helped make this dream a reality... -Terry C.
>
> * Thanks for a wonderful resource! -Rick J.
>
> * Thanks for providing a quality product. -Bill C.
>
> * Have found [the List] invaluable for education while building... -Rick
H.
>
>
> * I learn so much from the List! -Robert R.
>
> * [The List] is better than any aviation magazines I subscribe
o. -Roger H.
>
> * I enjoy the pages and find them very helpful. -Noel G.
>
> * The "List" is a great place to both receive and exten help and ideas
for
> building and making flying safer. -Jack B.
>
>
> * The discussions are very helpful. -James B.
>
> * ...I believe this List will be a better value than the
ewsletter. -Roger T.
>
> * [The List] has helped me with the construction of my RV-9. -Marty S.
>
> * VERY good reading. Excellent entertainment value. -Jerry I.
>
>
> * [The List] has saved me many hour on wild goose chases. -Billy W.
>
> * Thanks for keeping my passion for flying as piqued as ever. -Terry W.
>
> * Keep up the nice work. -Daniel H.
>
> * Thanks for all the effort on behalf of Sport Aviation! -Elbie M.
>
>
> * ...Great information source! -Richard W.
>
> * ...Thanks for your help and patience with a very difficult
ask. -Louis W.
>
> * [The List] has been a great asset. -Edward C.
>
> * Just started and already received some valuable tips. -Scott S.
>
>
> * Thanks for the List to let up share our passion. -Brian A.
>
> * ...This List is good stuff. -Russ D.
>
> * ...The single most helpful resource I've come across in
uilding. -Craig P.
>
> * ...Enjoy [the List] a lot. -John H.
>
>
> * The List is a most important tool to help building. -Brad R.
>
> * ...Really found the List to be great! -Geoff T.
>
> * Excellent contribution to the aviation community. -Larry B.
>
> * Great source of information... -William G.
>
>
> * The Lists ... make building a real hoot! -Jeff O.
>
> * The List has been invaluable. -Matt P.
>
> * Thanks for letting me use the site. It's great! -Larry M.
>
> * ...This List has been very helpful. -Larry H.
>
>
> * Greatest support ever for the builders and I have met many
riends. -Fred H.
>
> * ...I love this List and have met many new friends... -Tom E.
>
> * Love both the List and the Search Engine. -Roy G.
>
>
> ===================== Comments From List Members
========================
>
>
> --
>
>
> Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
> Great minds discuss ideas,
> Average minds discuss events,
> Small minds discuss people...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dany A. Pennington" <DanyPennington(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Aerobatic-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 12/08/00 |
Please un-subscribe me from this list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Giovanni Valmori" <givalmor(at)tin.it> |
| Subject: | Aerobatic-List Digest |
>
>Please un-subscribe me from this list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MARKPIPE62(at)aol.com |
I would like to be removed from your lists as there is too much junk to sort
through and to much repetition. Thanks Markpipe62 @aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Giovanni Valmori" <givalmor(at)tin.it> |
| Subject: | Please take me off the lists |
I would like to be removed from your lists.
Thanks givalmor(at)tin.it
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hurlbut" <shurlbut(at)island.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Please take me off the lists |
Go to www.matronics.com and follow the instructions
to get removed from the list
----- Original Message -----
From: Giovanni Valmori <givalmor(at)tin.it>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 2:11 AM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Please take me off the lists
>
> I would like to be removed from your lists.
> Thanks givalmor(at)tin.it
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
| Subject: | Matronics Web Server Upgrade... |
B
Dear Listers,
I will be upgrading the Matronics Web Server this afternoon (1/21/01)
and will be taking it offline for a number of hours. I hope to have it
back online by this evening sometime, depending on how well the upgrade
goes.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Elbie(at)aol.com (by way of Matt Dralle 925-606-1001 <dralle(at)matronics.com>) |
2/9/2001
Fellow Pilots and Builders:
EM aviation is pleased to announce that the RiteAngle III Angle of
Attack system is in production. I know this has been a long, long wait for
some of you, however I will not sell a system that is not up to my standards.
The long delay was partially caused by the total new design required
after the RiteAngle 2000 system was terminated. The remainder of the delay
was insuring the system met all our requirements such as both hot and cold
environment testing. The first production group of systems off the line
are being again extensively tested for approximately 2 weeks before we
deliver any systems to insure there are no "bugs" appearing.
When all production testing is accomplished I will ship according to who
has sent in the order form via fax or US mail. (Again, DO NOT send your
credit card number via e-mail! I DO NOT have a secure e-mail line.)
If you want a spot in line for early delivery you can request this via
e-mail, and mail your check or CC number.
At present time I estimate 4- 10 weeks before your delivery, depending on
when I receive your payment.
To those of you who have been in correspondence with me for the last year,
thanks for your belief in EM aviation's product, and soon you will have a
product in your hands. I honor my correspondence of the quoted price.
Current price $295 + mount & options see web site for information.
www.riteangle.com
Elbie Mendenhall
President
EM Aviation, LLC
P NE Prairie Rd
Brush Prairie WA 98606
360-260-0772
www.riteangle.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Pierzina <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Aerobatic-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 03/27/01 |
Hey, Is anybody out their, I'm looking for an Instructor in Minnesota, preferably
in the twin cities area.... But will travel... I'm not looking for real intense
training , Just some basic maneuvers........Gotta Fly...
Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down...
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Calloway" <tcalloway(at)datatechnique.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 03/28/01 |
I was wondering the same thing. I think yours is the first message I've
seen since subscribing. I'd like to hear from more mid western folk as a
resident of Kansas.
Thanks;
tc
I was wondering the same thing. I think yours is the first message
I've seen since subscribing.I'd like to hear from more mid western
folk as a resident of Kansas.
Thanks;
tc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Pierzina <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Aerobatic-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 03/27/01 |
Mike Pierzina wrote:
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:02:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Mike Pierzina
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Aerobatic-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 03/27/01
Hey, Is anybody out their, I'm looking for an Instructor in Minnesota, preferably
in the twin cities area.... But will travel... I'm not looking for real intense
training , Just some basic maneuvers........Gotta Fly...
Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down...
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Pierzina <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com> |
lets take that thing out, flip it over, and get the dust off the wings, and the
rust off the rings.......I'm talkin to myself.......again.........cause nobodys
home........its kinda like yelling in the middle of a field, nobody hears.............Gotta
Fly...
Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down...
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
I forgot I was on the Aerobatic List. It's good to hear some talk beginning
to float around.
Here's a little background on myself. I've got an RV-8 that's almost a year
old. I've flown some mild acro, almost all positive stuff. Before test
flying my plane, I got several hours of dual in an S2B with some acro thrown
in for fun. The rest is all self-taught.
Bryan Jones
Pearland, Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pierzina [mailto:planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:11 PM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Lets go Flying
lets take that thing out, flip it over, and get the dust off the wings, and
the rust off the rings.......I'm talkin to myself.......again.........cause
nobodys home........its kinda like yelling in the middle of a field, nobody
hears.............Gotta Fly...
Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way
down...
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lets go Flying |
Okay... I too forgot I was on the aero list, but there ain't been no traffic
for quite awhile. I've bought an RV-4 & built one. I'm a self taught,
light weight aerobatic beginner. I've done loops, rolls, spins, and am
trying hammer heads, split "S"s and Immelmans. What's everyone else's
experience/plane.
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 04/03/01 |
I bought an older Glasair 1TD and cannot resist rolling it constantly. Hammerheads
are easy, loops well, I don't spin the little guy though. Too Fun!
I did get about 10 hours in a super decathelon years ago. Formation in K.C. anyone??
Vic Jaugilas VFJAY(at)AOL.COM N88LW
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lets go Flying |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)telus.net> |
What the heck, I'll chime in too...
I'm building an RV-6. Still working on the tail after a loooong time, but I
have the wing kit now, which has re-motivated me.
I'm a former Canadian air force jet instructor. I have almost nil acro
experience in light aircraft, though. But I'm looking forward to getting
it!
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 04/03/01 |
I'd love to learn to fly formation... I'm based in Coalinga, California.
Anyone in California, let me know. I'm planning on competing (my first try
& never had an aero lesson) in the Basic division at Delano Competition on
April 20th & 21st. You all are invited, I'm sure there will be some
talented folks (not me) there to watch.
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - |
04/03/01
At 06:52 AM 4/4/2001, you wrote:
>
>I'd love to learn to fly formation... I'm based in Coalinga, California.
>Anyone in California, let me know. I'm planning on competing (my first try
>& never had an aero lesson) in the Basic division at Delano Competition on
>April 20th & 21st. You all are invited, I'm sure there will be some
>talented folks (not me) there to watch.
I teach formation up in the Sacramento area if you want to come up this
way. If you are a member of the CAF, their training squadron will be
holding a clinic in May at the old Castle AFB, now Atwater, near Merced.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - |
04/03/01
At 05:41 AM 4/4/2001, you wrote:
>
>I bought an older Glasair 1TD and cannot resist rolling it
>constantly. Hammerheads are easy, loops well, I don't spin the little guy
>though. Too Fun!
You are doing hammerheads and loops yet you aren't comfortable spinning the
aircraft? Something sounds wrong with this picture. There is a reason I
teach spins before I start my students on basic acro. Botch either of
these maneuvers and you can find yourself in a spin, possibly an inverted
spin. I sure as heck want to be comfortable spinning and recovering.
>I did get about 10 hours in a super decathelon years ago. Formation in
>K.C. anyone??
There are a lot of people flying formation without formation
training. Having done it both ways, I can safely say that what you don't
know CAN kill you. Now I teach formation flying. Flying lots of acro
doesn't qualify you to fly formation (but it does help when you finally do
get instruction).
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 04/03/01 |
Brian,
Who's "CAF" and how do I contact them. I've been to Castle looks like
a great place to learn (hell touch & go's sideways on the tarmac look easy).
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 3 Msgs - |
04/03/01
At 10:10 AM 4/4/2001, you wrote:
>
>Brian,
>
> Who's "CAF" and how do I contact them. I've been to Castle looks like
>a great place to learn (hell touch & go's sideways on the tarmac look easy).
CAF = Confederate Air Force. The group handling the formation training is
their TRAning squadRON (TRARON) out of Riverside. I don't have the contact
info at my fingertips but you might be able to poke around on the web and
find it.
The big runway makes it easy to do section take-offs and landings as well
as get the graduation "big formation" in the air. This is practice for
mass formation such as you see at OSH.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Pierzina <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Aerobatics by Mistake.... |
The reason I would like to take lessons in aerobatics , Is so I get better control
of the plane, I just got my "PRIVATE" 3/8/2001....And the only stunts I've
done were by mistake, I was solo in the practice area and a "power off stall"
went wrong and I was looking straight down & in a spin , I had taken my hand
off the throttle to take out flaps when she whipped into the spin , I knew I
had to cut power, I reached for the throttle but couldn't find it , finally I
looked in the cockpit for it and pulled it, ....That scared the crap outa me,
I kinda quit doing anymore maneuvres that day, I went and did a couple of touch
& go's , but I was still to rattled , so I called it a day and figured I just
need more time between me and that spin , Anyway.... I'm having a heck of a
time finding an " Aerobatic Instructor " Well , Gotta Fly...
Mike in Mn. Fly: Cessna 172 , Own Buckeye 582 Dream machine , Building
KOLB Firestar II
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Basiliere" <BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.co.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatics by Mistake.... |
Check with the International Aerobatic Club through their web site if you
like. There you will find a list of the Chapters in your area. By
contacting the Chapter you will be directed to the best of the Aerobatics
instructors in your area. Good luck, be safe and have fun! IAC will take
great care of you. If you are ever in Colorado look me up I'd be glad to
work with you. Oh, it's just a semantics thing but we do not refer to
what we do as "stunts". That's for the Hollywood movie dudes and
dudettes. I fly Sukhoi, Unlimited. Rick
>>> planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com 04/04/01 03:59PM >>>
>
The reason I would like to take lessons in aerobatics , Is so I get better
control of the plane, I just got my "PRIVATE" 3/8/2001....And the only
stunts I've done were by mistake, I was solo in the practice area and a
"power off stall" went wrong and I was looking straight down & in a spin ,
I had taken my hand off the throttle to take out flaps when she whipped
into the spin , I knew I had to cut power, I reached for the throttle but
couldn't find it , finally I looked in the cockpit for it and pulled it,
....That scared the crap outa me, I kinda quit doing anymore maneuvres
that day, I went and did a couple of touch & go's , but I was still to
rattled , so I called it a day and figured I just need more time between
me and that spin , Anyway.... I'm having a heck of a time finding an "
Aerobatic Instructor " Well , Gotta Fly...
Mike in Mn. Fly: Cessna 172 , Own Buckeye 582 Dream machine ,
Building KOLB Firestar II
---------------------------------
=
=
=
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Bird <g.bird(at)opengroup.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatics by Mistake.... |
Mike
Dig out you local IAC chapter (look at www.iac.org) and contact them. Join
them and ask them about a good local acro instructor
>
>
>The reason I would like to take lessons in aerobatics , Is so I get better
>control of the plane, I just got my "PRIVATE" 3/8/2001....And the only
>stunts I've done were by mistake, I was solo in the practice area and a
>"power off stall" went wrong and I was looking straight down & in a spin ,
>I had taken my hand off the throttle to take out flaps when she whipped
>into the spin , I knew I had to cut power, I reached for the throttle but
>couldn't find it , finally I looked in the cockpit for it and pulled it,
>....That scared the crap outa me, I kinda quit doing anymore maneuvres
>that day, I went and did a couple of touch & go's , but I was still to
>rattled , so I called it a day and figured I just need more time between
>me and that spin , Anyway.... I'm having a heck of a time finding an "
>Aerobatic Instructor " Well , Gotta Fly...
>
> Mike in Mn. Fly: Cessna 172 , Own Buckeye 582 Dream machine ,
> Building KOLB Firestar II
Graham Bird 3968 Oakmore Road
Oakland, CA 94602
President, IAC Chapter 38 510 530 9008
www.iac38.org g.bird(at)opengroup.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatics by Mistake.... |
At 02:59 PM 4/4/2001, you wrote:
>
>
>The reason I would like to take lessons in aerobatics , Is so I get better
>control of the plane, I just got my "PRIVATE" 3/8/2001....And the only
>stunts I've done were by mistake, I was solo in the practice area and a
>"power off stall" went wrong and I was looking straight down & in a spin ,
>I had taken my hand off the throttle to take out flaps when she whipped
>into the spin , I knew I had to cut power, I reached for the throttle but
>couldn't find it , finally I looked in the cockpit for it and pulled it,
>....That scared the crap outa me, I kinda quit doing anymore maneuvres
>that day, I went and did a couple of touch & go's , but I was still to
>rattled , so I called it a day and figured I just need more time between
>me and that spin , Anyway.... I'm having a heck of a time finding an "
>Aerobatic Instructor " Well , Gotta Fly...
Sorry you aren't out here on the Left Coast Mike. I would be happy to give
you a hand. I offer (encourage) all my students the option of spin
training in conjunction with stalls and, later, unusual attitude recovery
in my CJ6A.
I grew up with the FAA's "you don't need spin training" attitude in the
'60s. I didn't know what I was missing but I also know that I was never
comfortable with the aircraft in anything but straight and level flight. I
*hated* power-on stalls.
Then I got my RV-4. I wanted to be able to operate this aircraft in all
its flight regimes. One of the local pilots is an IAC competitor in his
Christen Eagle. He took me for some hops where we explored the world of
positive Gs and spins. It was great. I found that it made me much, much
more comfortable in *all* airplanes under *all* conditions.
I now have a Nanchang CJ6A. My idea of stress relief after a hard day is
20 minutes of acro. My 19 year-old son (PPSEL and working on his
instrument) and my 13 year-old son both like flying acro. Heck, my 13
year-old thinks anything less than 5 Gs is a waste of time. I give him the
stick and I am the one who usually has to give the knock-it-off call.
Now I am a CFI. I really *like* teaching people how to fly. And I try to
help them get over that fear that comes from the airplane being something
other than straight and level. I am only sorry that I didn't do it years
and years ago.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 04/04/01 |
To Brian LLoyd
To Clarify, I said I do not intentionally Spin or snap the Glasair because
of the factorys reccommendation. Short coupled airframes, you know.
However It does Not have any tendencies to snatch even in accelerated
manuvers. Its a little short of rudder for knife edge and too slick to stay
inside the box. Sport acro only.
As for formation, most of the guys I know were former military. We Always
brief before we fly. I am well aware of the hazard involved. The guys I flew
with a lot had highly modified Swifts. My TD is a substantially different
aircraft in speed but fairly similar in handling and has a more robust spar.
Vic Jaugilas VFJAY(at)AOL.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B. Jensen" <bjensen(at)integramn.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 04/04/01 |
>
> From: Mike Pierzina <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com>
> Subject: Aerobatic-List: Aerobatics by Mistake....
>
> ....And the only stunts I've done were by mistake, I was solo in the practice
area and a "power off stall" went wrong and I was looking straight down & in
a spin , I had taken my hand off the throttle to take out flaps when she whipped
into the spin , I knew I had to cut power, I reached for the throttle but couldn't
find it , finally I looked in the cockpit for it and pulled it, ....
If you were doing a "power off stall", the power should have already been at idle.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Aronson <aronsond(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | New guy to aerobatics |
Hey listers:
I have not contributed to the list until now. I have been working on my
RV4 and have listened in on several list besides the RV-list. Well, I
just became the owner of a nice Citabria 7eca with a 0320/150 hp
conversion. I have about 25 hours in it (the plane I received by
tailwheel indorsement in also). I would like to try some aerobatic
manuevers in the future. 1. Does anyone have a parachute that they
would like to sell 2. What is your idea of ideal aerobatic training?
Thanks for any input.
Dave Aronson
RV4 N504RV
Citabria N2683Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Magaw" <dmagaw(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New guy to aerobatics |
Get a competent CFI II to show you the maneuvers, and more importantly how
to get out of a botched one (which will be most likely a resulting spin).
Then practice what you are signed off to do, and keep repeating this
process--it is a lot of fun!
Dave (still learning also).
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Aronson" <aronsond(at)pacbell.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:40 AM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: New guy to aerobatics
>
> Hey listers:
> I have not contributed to the list until now. I have been working on my
> RV4 and have listened in on several list besides the RV-list. Well, I
> just became the owner of a nice Citabria 7eca with a 0320/150 hp
> conversion. I have about 25 hours in it (the plane I received by
> tailwheel indorsement in also). I would like to try some aerobatic
> manuevers in the future. 1. Does anyone have a parachute that they
> would like to sell 2. What is your idea of ideal aerobatic training?
> Thanks for any input.
> Dave Aronson
> RV4 N504RV
> Citabria N2683Z
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aeros and FP Props |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
You'll have to excuse my ignorance with this question. I learned aeros on
airplanes that don't have props, and I have almost no experience even being
in a propeller airplane while doing aeros, let alone flying them.
I've heard several people talk about having to make a lot of power
adjustments while doing aeros "because I have a fixed pitch prop." When I
learned to do aeros, in most cases the exit speed of a manoeuvre was about
equal to the entry speed. Certain manoeuvres, such as hesitation rolls, are
designed to lead to acceleration, but most don't. I'm uncertain why this
would be different in a propeller-driven airplane.
If the exit speed is the same as the entry speed, and the speed during the
manoeuvre is no greater (as in a loop, for example), why would there be any
need to adjust power?
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aeros and FP Props |
My guess is that without reducing power on the downhill side, one might
easily over-rev the engine with a fixed pitch prop.
Bryan Jones RV-8 765BJ
Pearland, Texas
> why would there be any
>need to adjust power?
>Tedd McHenry
>Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Bryan:
> My guess is that without reducing power on the downhill side, one might
> easily over-rev the engine with a fixed pitch prop.
The question I actually asked was...
"If the exit speed is the same as the entry speed, and the speed during the
manoeuvre is no greater (as in a loop, for example), why would there be any
need to adjust power?"
In other words, at no point in the manoeuvre is the airspeed greater than
when you began the manoeuvre. So, unless you began the manoeuvre with the
engine over-revved, why would you over-rev the engine on the downhill side?
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aeros and FP Props |
Sorry for not reading the question thoroughly. Based upon the assumed
condition of equal entry and exit speeds, I don't believe there would be a
need for power change. However, in practice, there may not be a strict
conservation of energy between the front and back side of a loop. I'll have
to scratch my head on this one for a little while...
Bryan Jones RV-8 (CS prop) 765BJ
Pearland, Texas, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Tedd McHenry [mailto:tedd(at)vansairforce.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Aeros and FP Props
Bryan:
> My guess is that without reducing power on the downhill side, one might
> easily over-rev the engine with a fixed pitch prop.
The question I actually asked was...
"If the exit speed is the same as the entry speed, and the speed during the
manoeuvre is no greater (as in a loop, for example), why would there be any
need to adjust power?"
In other words, at no point in the manoeuvre is the airspeed greater than
when you began the manoeuvre. So, unless you began the manoeuvre with the
engine over-revved, why would you over-rev the engine on the downhill side?
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PLTDBEEZER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
I just leave the power full during almost all aerobatics. I have a wood prop
and 150 hp. This give me exit energy close to entry. 180 hp with c/s prop
would probably either require power reduction on the downhill side or a
reduced power setting through the entire maneuver to prevent excess speed
buildup going downhill. A lot depends on density altitude as I notice at
lower altitudes/density altitudes I seem to have to pull a little harder to
keep the speed under control on the back side of loops etc.
Dave Beizer
RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
Hi, Tedd,
Back to keyboard after a while.
Maybe I can give you an opinion, as I happen to be an aerobatics instructor
and former competitor.
I seem to understand you learned aerobatics on military jets. In "civilian"
planes the goal is not always the same as you had, and the shape of a loop,
for instance, is what is judged in competitions, rather than entry or exit
speed.
So for any given entry speed - sometimes grossly under or over optimal- you
have to manage your energy to make your manoeuver "seem" reasonably correct,
and still have the desired speed to enter the next.
Let's suppose you enter your loop at 30 knots below target speed. You'll
have to be gentle on the accelerometer in order to gain sufficient altitude
on top, and not to stall, and then recover gently to regain speed for the
next manoeuver. Of course, at the expense of some altitude. But if you
succeed in "cheating", the judges won't notice it to much, and they'll be
impressed by your -hopefully- round looking loop.
To sum it up : easy on the stick means speed regainedat the expense of
altitude. And vice versa.
The necessities of competition programs, and our mistakes in flight induce
widely varying entry and exit speeds. And, as you know, high speed means
high prop revolutions, and throttle retarding to prevent over reving a fixed
pitch propeller.
And sometime we get stuck : low altitude, low speed, and four point vertical
roll with half vertical flick to perform !
Caution : I typed low altitude, and not "unsafe" altitude. In aerobatics
competitions, you're supposed to comply with safe minima.
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Gilles
----- Message d'origine -----
De : "Tedd McHenry"
:
Envoy : mercredi 2 mai 2001 07:41
Objet : Aerobatic-List: Aeros and FP Props
>
> You'll have to excuse my ignorance with this question. I learned aeros on
> airplanes that don't have props, and I have almost no experience even
being
> in a propeller airplane while doing aeros, let alone flying them.
>
[ ]
> If the exit speed is the same as the entry speed, and the speed during the
> manoeuvre is no greater (as in a loop, for example), why would there be
any
> need to adjust power?
>
> Tedd McHenry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
At 10:41 PM 5/1/2001, you wrote:
>If the exit speed is the same as the entry speed, and the speed during the
>manoeuvre is no greater (as in a loop, for example), why would there be any
>need to adjust power?
Because, if you have a fixed-pitch prop, engine RPM and, hence, power,
varies with airspeed. When airspeed is high you need to reduce throttle to
prevent engine overspeed and when airspeed is low you need to increase
throttle to keep the thrust up there.
It is not unusual for small aircraft to dive to gain the required
loop-entry airspeed and need to reduce throttle to keep the engine from
overspeeding at the beginning of the maneuver. As you reach 135 degrees or
so of your loop (approx 45 degree nose up and inverted) your airspeed is
bleeding off rapidly, you want full throttle to get maximum thrust over the
top (we are trying to make a round loop here). As you approach 270 degrees
or so you are accelerating rapidly so you are reducing throttle so as not
to overspeed the engine at the bottom of the loop. Yes, you exit airspeed
should be approximately the same as your entry airspeed so throttle
position should be about the same too.
If you are lazy (like me), have a constant speed prop, and aren't trying to
make a perfectly round loop, you might not make much of a power change
during the maneuver.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Thanks to everyone for their replies to my question. It's becoming clearer,
but I'm still unclear about a couple of things.
To simplify things, let's consider the situation under which I expect to be
doing aerobatics. I'm building an RV-6, and I expect to have a fixed pitch
prop--could be wood, could be metal, I'm not sure yet. The RV-6 is a
relatively clean airplane, but not as clean as a jet, so I don't anticipate
a lot of trouble controlling the exit speed.
Let's assume, for the moment, that my prop is pitched such that the engine
doesn't exceed redline even at Vne. I should be able to accelerate to Vne,
if I want, as the entry speed to a manoeuvre in the vertical plane, and
expect to get through the manoeuvre without over-revving the engine,
correct?
Okay, now maybe that previous assumption was unrealistic. Perhaps the prop
I'm likely to have, to give good overall performance, would actually exceed
redline RPM at Vne, if the throttle were wide open. Is that a more
realistic assumption? I can see how, in that case, there would be
situations where I'd need to enter the manoeuvre at high speed, but not full
throttle, then add power during the manoeuvre, and then reduce power toward
the exit of the manoeuvre. Brian, was that the sort of situation you were
describing?
Thanks again for the replies,
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
At 09:09 PM 5/2/2001, you wrote:
>To simplify things, let's consider the situation under which I expect to be
>doing aerobatics. I'm building an RV-6, and I expect to have a fixed pitch
>prop--could be wood, could be metal, I'm not sure yet. The RV-6 is a
>relatively clean airplane, but not as clean as a jet, so I don't anticipate
>a lot of trouble controlling the exit speed.
Actually, this is a problem with the RV-6 or any of Van's airplanes for
that matter. It is quite easy to blow past Vne if the nose is down and you
aren't careful. My poor little RV-4 once saw almost 100 kts past Vne when
a military pilot entered a split-S from cruise. He just didn't realize how
near Vne is to cruise and how quickly an RV-whatever will accelerate with
its nose down. All you can do is close the throttle and load up the
airframe to bleed off the excess speed/energy.
>Let's assume, for the moment, that my prop is pitched such that the engine
>doesn't exceed redline even at Vne. I should be able to accelerate to Vne,
>if I want, as the entry speed to a manoeuvre in the vertical plane, and
>expect to get through the manoeuvre without over-revving the engine,
>correct?
Yes but that is not a realistic assumption. Having your prop pitched that
way will give very poor performance during any low-airspeed operation such
as take-off, cruise, or the top of a vertical maneuver. A more realistic
setup is to pitch the prop so that full throttle cruise as 7500' yields
something right around red-line RPM. I actually underpitched the prop on
my RV-4 so that I could squeeze a little more hp out of it flat-out in
level flight. (I could turn my hot-rod O-320 just shy of 3000 RPM which
yielded about 185 kts in level flight.) I just throttled back a little for
cross-country flight but I had the extra RPM/hp available when I wanted
it. And we all know there is no substitute for horsepower.
>Okay, now maybe that previous assumption was unrealistic. Perhaps the prop
>I'm likely to have, to give good overall performance, would actually exceed
>redline RPM at Vne, if the throttle were wide open. Is that a more
>realistic assumption?
Yes.
>I can see how, in that case, there would be
>situations where I'd need to enter the manoeuvre at high speed, but not full
>throttle, then add power during the manoeuvre, and then reduce power toward
>the exit of the manoeuvre. Brian, was that the sort of situation you were
>describing?
Yes.
>Thanks again for the replies,
You are most welcome.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
> My poor little RV-4 once saw almost 100 kts past Vne when
> a military pilot entered a split-S from cruise.
Yeah, I've seen some things that amazed me, too.
Thanks for your replies.
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Boyd:
> While a loop may look symmetrically circular, the power/thrust
> requirements are not, involving many variables, esp. on the "up" side of
> the loop, where even the the speed of a headwind or lack of it will
> affect climb performance and parasitic drag will affect the "down" side.
> The potential energy stored and released HAS to be the same, but,
> acceleration, a vector, changes the two sides of the maneuver.
I don't know about all that, but I do know that Manfred Radius can fly a
pretty damned round loop with his sailplane.
> If I remember correctly from my Navy days, the easiest way to fly a
> "perfect" loop is to keep the same Angle of Attack throughout the
> maneuver. I will research this further now that my wingtips are off and
> the PSS AOA system is going in.
I'd be interested to hear how that turns out. I plan to put an AOA gauge of
some kind in my RV-6. I didn't train with AOA, but I can see how it might
be useful during aerobatics. Anybody else have any comments on that?
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
> I don't know about all that, but I do know that Manfred Radius can fly a
> pretty damned round loop with his sailplane.
Yes, the art in aerobatics is making manoeuvers LOOK RIGHT. Judging figures
is also an art, and takes quite some training. Teaching aerobatics, on board
as well as critiquing from the ground also takes some experience
>
> I'd be interested to hear how that turns out. I plan to put an AOA gauge
of
> some kind in my RV-6. I didn't train with AOA, but I can see how it might
> be useful during aerobatics. Anybody else have any comments on that?
>
Er, AOA watching during aerobatics ? Hmm, we are quite a bunch around here,
flying aerobatics at every level . What we try to do is fly with the eyes
watching OUTSIDE most of the time. OK, we monitor entry altitude, airspeed
and G-loads, but we LOOK OUTSIDE !
My two pence : do take some aerobatics lessons with a knowledgeable
aerobatics instructor, before attempting any aeros on your own machine.
Those "sport" airplanes are difficult to fly safe aerobatics with. When the
G-meter reads right, the speed is often to high. And if you try to pull
harder to keep the speed within limits, well there is a risk to heavily
overstress the airframe.
I recall that hair raising post about starting a split-S from cruise speed.
Wow ! 100 mph over Vne ! Those RVs must be made of armour plate steel !
Remember, military jets fly fairly fast, so they experience high drag
(Vsquare), and they don't pick up speed that easily. They need lots of
thrust to accelerate. On the contrary, light planes fly slower and airspeed
increases quicly as soon as you dump the nose.
Whenever I fly with an unfamiliar pilot, my hands are not very far from the
controls. Whereas beginner are usually rather shy on the controls, "old"
pilots sometimes need , well er, some "attention" when flying inverted ;-)
Some feel compelled to pull on the stick, trying to take us into an
inadvertent split-S. Needless to say, you have to react quickly.
Sorry if this post interferes, but I'd be interested in discussing how
aerobatics are taught in your area or ours.
Cheers,
gilles thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Gilles:
> Er, AOA watching during aerobatics ? Hmm, we are quite a bunch around here,
> flying aerobatics at every level . What we try to do is fly with the eyes
> watching OUTSIDE most of the time. OK, we monitor entry altitude, airspeed
> and G-loads, but we LOOK OUTSIDE !
Nice speech, but I'm sure you monitor your airspeed during aeros. I was
also taught to monitor G. I can't see that monitoring AOA is going to
suddenly make my aeros unsafe, particularly since it may replace monitoring
airspeed or G.
> Remember, military jets fly fairly fast, so they experience high drag
> (Vsquare), and they don't pick up speed that easily. They need lots of
> thrust to accelerate. On the contrary, light planes fly slower and airspeed
> increases quicly as soon as you dump the nose.
Your experience must be quite different from mine. The military jets I
taught aeros on were quite a bit cleaner than most light airplanes (they had
an engine-out glide ratio of about 15:1), and they were not especially clean
as jets go.
Some real-world numbers might help. In a standard, military-style loop in
the jet we would enter at 250 kias, use about 3 G to do a loop about 3,000
feet in diameter, come over the top at about 150 kias, and exit out the
bottom at 250 kias and the same altitude we entered at. The only light
airplane I've done aeros in was an RV-4, where a loop looked something like
this: enter at 150 kias, use about 3 G to do a loop about 500 feet in
diameter, come over the top at about 100 kias (I think), and exit out the
bottom back at 150 kias and the same altitude we entered at. So you could
say that the RV-4 gained 50 knots in a 500-foot down side whereas the jet
gained 100 knots in a 3,000-foot downside, which would have the RV
accelerating faster. But, relatively speaking, they felt about the same.
This was in fact one of the reasons I chose to build an RV: it's flight
characteristics during aeros are very similar, in a relative way, to the
jets I flew in the air force. Sort of a poor man's training jet.
> Some feel compelled to pull on the stick, trying to take us into an
> inadvertent split-S. Needless to say, you have to react quickly.
> Sorry if this post interferes, but I'd be interested in discussing how
> aerobatics are taught in your area or ours.
As an aerobatic instructor, you have several defenses against this sort of
thing.
A good briefing is very important. It's vital that, before any airborne
instruction, the student understands each manoeuvre to be performed, and
also that he understand energy management and the significance of
manoeuvring speed. If the student truly understands those things he'll be
less likely to do something silly in the airplane.
The lesson should also be tightly structured. In the air force we used the
EDIC system: Explain, Demonstrate, Imitate, Critique. The student should
only attempt a manoeuvre immediately after observing it and following
through on the controls while the instructor flies it. Depending on the
student, you may not even want him to set up his own manoeuvre (i.e.
clearing turns, altitude, airpseed, etc.) in the beginning.
Also, it's very important to assess the student's character. This is highly
subjective, and therefore difficult to describe, but I expect any
experienced instructor has some capacity for it. If you haven't flown with
that student before, you have to be extra careful. The one time I
overstressed a jet was doing an advanced lesson with a student I'd never
flown with before. I gave him too much free rein and he pulled right to
buffet at about 20 or 30 knots above manoeuvring speed. This was a student
within two weeks of getting his wings but, as someone else pointed out
earlier in this thread, military wings don't necessarily mean the pilot
won't be a bonehead. My mistake in this case was that I didn't assess his
knowledge and understanding properly during the briefing, and I also
misjudged his character. I encouraged him to be aggressive with the jet
when he actually didn't need any enouragement at all!
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 02:16 PM 5/13/2001, you wrote:
> > The potential energy stored and released HAS to be the same, but,
> > acceleration, a vector, changes the two sides of the maneuver.
>
>I don't know about all that, but I do know that Manfred Radius can fly a
>pretty damned round loop with his sailplane.
You can fly a round loop in a sailplane (or any other plane for that
matter) but because of varying airspeed, acceleration must vary throughout
as well.
> > If I remember correctly from my Navy days, the easiest way to fly a
> > "perfect" loop is to keep the same Angle of Attack throughout the
> > maneuver. I will research this further now that my wingtips are off and
> > the PSS AOA system is going in.
This will not ensure a round loop but it will make it closer to round than
constant pull ('G') will. As airspeed decreases, lift decreases at
constant AoA. This causes the acceleration vector due to lift to decrease
too. This relationship is linear if I recall. The problem is that you
need a much larger acceleration vector at the bottom of the loop than you
do at the top (not linear). At the bottom your lift force vector must be
much greater to counter the gravity vector. At the top you much greatly
reduce the lift force vector because it is now aligned with the gravity
force vector plus you must factor in decreasing airspeed.
You can think of the gravity force vector as a "bias" on what is required
to go around a vertical turn. Also, at the top of the loop your forward
velocity is much lower so you need a very small lift vector to keep the
same radius of turn.
>I'd be interested to hear how that turns out. I plan to put an AOA gauge of
>some kind in my RV-6. I didn't train with AOA, but I can see how it might
>be useful during aerobatics. Anybody else have any comments on that?
I have had the PSS AoA indicator in my CJ6A now for two years. I use it
extensively during acro, especially vertical maneuvering. I always know
how much "pull" is left before stall. It also makes it very easy to
recover from a "blown" vertical maneuver because I can take the airframe
ballistic at any time without stalling/spinning.
In a loop, I start with a 4G pull at the bottom. At 90 degrees the AoA is
telling me that I am right at 1.15 Vs. I modulate the pull to keep the AoA
at that point up to about 140 degrees where I really start to unload the
airframe. AoA decreases almost to zero (zero lift) going over the top. I
start to load up the airframe mildly again at about 215 degrees by slowly
increasing the AoA. At about 300 degrees I am loaded up pretty good (3G or
so) and AoA is at about 1.3 Vs. I am right at 4G coming out the bottom.
The interesting thing through all of this is that I only use AoA and the
'G' meter through the loop once I verify my entry airspeed (energy) going
in. Unfortunately I can't tell you how round it is since I have never had
someone on the ground (who knows what to look for) watching the
maneuver. I *think* it is pretty round tho'.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
At 05:08 PM 5/13/2001, you wrote:
>Er, AOA watching during aerobatics ? Hmm, we are quite a bunch around here,
>flying aerobatics at every level . What we try to do is fly with the eyes
>watching OUTSIDE most of the time. OK, we monitor entry altitude, airspeed
>and G-loads, but we LOOK OUTSIDE !
But we glance inside, no? My AoA indicator is on the glareshield as is my
G-meter. That means I can see them when looking forward.
>My two pence : do take some aerobatics lessons with a knowledgeable
>aerobatics instructor, before attempting any aeros on your own machine.
100% right on that.
>Those "sport" airplanes are difficult to fly safe aerobatics with. When the
>G-meter reads right, the speed is often to high. And if you try to pull
>harder to keep the speed within limits, well there is a risk to heavily
>overstress the airframe.
>
>I recall that hair raising post about starting a split-S from cruise speed.
>Wow ! 100 mph over Vne ! Those RVs must be made of armour plate steel !
They are built well but they are slippery and can easily exceed Vne on a
downline if you screw up. The only solution is to close the throttle and
load up the airframe to max load (6G) and hang on.
>Remember, military jets fly fairly fast, so they experience high drag
>(Vsquare), and they don't pick up speed that easily. They need lots of
>thrust to accelerate. On the contrary, light planes fly slower and airspeed
>increases quicly as soon as you dump the nose.
>Whenever I fly with an unfamiliar pilot, my hands are not very far from the
>controls. Whereas beginner are usually rather shy on the controls, "old"
>pilots sometimes need , well er, some "attention" when flying inverted ;-)
>Some feel compelled to pull on the stick, trying to take us into an
>inadvertent split-S. Needless to say, you have to react quickly.
I think that is how my RV-4 got going so fast (it happened to the builder,
not me). I was never comfortable doing vertical maneuvers in the RV-4
because it is so easy to exceed the airframe limits. I am **MUCH** more
comfortable in my CJ6A because it is:
1. stronger,
2. draggier,
3. has a much higher Vne,
4. has higher stick forces,
5. doesn't change stick forces much with CG change.
>Sorry if this post interferes, but I'd be interested in discussing how
>aerobatics are taught in your area or ours.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
At 07:53 AM 5/14/2001, you wrote:
>Nice speech, but I'm sure you monitor your airspeed during aeros. I was
>also taught to monitor G. I can't see that monitoring AOA is going to
>suddenly make my aeros unsafe, particularly since it may replace monitoring
>airspeed or G.
It replaces monitoring airspeed but not G.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
Brian,
Your explanations of the physics of flight are crystal clear and I pretty
much agree with you.
> >Er, AOA watching during aerobatics ? Hmm, we are quite a bunch around
here,
> >flying aerobatics at every level . What we try to do is fly with the eyes
> >watching OUTSIDE most of the time. OK, we monitor entry altitude,
airspeed
> >and G-loads, but we LOOK OUTSIDE !
>
> But we glance inside, no? My AoA indicator is on the glareshield as is my
> G-meter. That means I can see them when looking forward.
You must be right. I've never used an Aoa indicator. I have the feeling it
can be of great help in certain maneuvers such as half square loops, for
instance, involving trying to maintain level flight attitude at very low
speed.
We glance at the ASI before pulling or pushing, at the top of a stall turn
(hammerhead or whatever) or before snap rolls. But I must confess I'm often
very busy keeping my wings level or monitoring my position within the "box".
>
> They are built well but they are slippery and can easily exceed Vne on a
> downline if you screw up. The only solution is to close the throttle and
> load up the airframe to max load (6G) and hang on.
Agreed
. I am **MUCH** more
> comfortable in my CJ6A because it is:
>
> 1. stronger,
> 2. draggier,
> 3. has a much higher Vne,
> 4. has higher stick forces,
> 5. doesn't change stick forces much with CG change.
Most right. Though I like light stick forces. But it is sure high stick
forces help keep G-loads within safe limits in a flying club with many
different pilots.
Cheers,
Gilles thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
Unfortunately I can't tell you how round it is since I have never had
> someone on the ground (who knows what to look for) watching the
> maneuver. I *think* it is pretty round tho'.
That is the point. Once the basics of the maneuver are acquired, we usually
"finish" the precision from the ground with a portable radio. It is true for
loops, vertical and 45 lines, and the symmetry of maneuvers such as stall
turns, vertical rolls, etc.
Even the plain old roll is better judged from the ground. In fact, once it
looks right from the ground, you can say you've reached a fairly good level.
Cheers
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
Tedd,
> Nice speech, but I'm sure you monitor your airspeed during aeros. I was
> also taught to monitor G. I can't see that monitoring AOA is going to
> suddenly make my aeros unsafe, particularly since it may replace
monitoring
> airspeed or G.
Not UNSAFE of course ! I was just trying to say we are busy looking outside
to insure the desired attitudes, precision and correct positionning within
the "box".
> As an aerobatic instructor, you have several defenses against this sort of
> thing.
Fortunately yes. The moment the pilot pulls from inverted, I'm already
pushing. But more than one of my fellow intructors was taken by surprise and
landed with a heavily stressed ship.
And what if your student is the size of a canadian lumberjack ? ;-)
I've seen bent sticks on a sailplane...
>
> A good briefing is very important. It's vital that, before any airborne
> instruction, the student understands each manoeuvre to be performed, and
> also that he understand energy management and the significance of
> manoeuvring speed. If the student truly understands those things he'll be
> less likely to do something silly in the airplane.
Perfectly right.
We often make mistakes. I remember a 3 turn spin that ended in a 5 and half
turn spin with the engine stalled and student frozen rock solid on the
controls. A good nudge and a shout over the intercom woke him up, and after
recovery we were able to restart the engine.
But I was concerned I had chosen a wooded area instead of the airfield, just
for noise reduction ...
Cheers,
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | CJ6A vs. RV-4, stick forces, etc. |
At 02:08 PM 5/14/2001, you wrote:
> > I am **MUCH** more comfortable in my CJ6A because it is:
> >
> > 1. stronger,
> > 2. draggier,
> > 3. has a much higher Vne,
> > 4. has higher stick forces,
> > 5. doesn't change stick forces much with CG change.
>
>Most right. Though I like light stick forces. But it is sure high stick
>forces help keep G-loads within safe limits in a flying club with many
>different pilots.
The CJ6A doesn't have high stick forces. The stick forces are quite
reasonable for comfortable 1-hand acro. It is just that the stick forces
on my RV-4 were dangerously light at aft CG. A child could easily exceed
the airframe load limits with one hand with the aircraft loaded to aft
CG. You have to make a point of flying it with your fingertips.
I was always leery of letting people even roll the RV-4 let alone do any
vertical maneuvering. It is just too easy to pull too hard or to blow past
Vne if the nose is down. I can look straight down at the ground all day
long in my CJ6A (figuratively speaking, of course) without getting nervous.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)telus.net> |
Brian:
> In a loop, I start with a 4G pull at the bottom. At 90 degrees the AoA is
> telling me that I am right at 1.15 Vs. I modulate the pull to keep the AoA
> at that point up to about 140 degrees where I really start to unload the
> airframe. AoA decreases almost to zero (zero lift) going over the top. I
> start to load up the airframe mildly again at about 215 degrees by slowly
> increasing the AoA. At about 300 degrees I am loaded up pretty good (3G or
> so) and AoA is at about 1.3 Vs. I am right at 4G coming out the bottom.
Thanks for passing that on, it's exactly the sort of description I was
hoping for.
> It also makes it very easy to
> recover from a "blown" vertical maneuver because I can take the airframe
> ballistic at any time without stalling/spinning.
I don't think I understand what you mean. Do you mean that if you, for
example, enter without enough energy you can unload to zero AOA and just let
the nose fall through? Or are you talking about a different kind of
situation?
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
>
> > It also makes it very easy to
> > recover from a "blown" vertical maneuver because I can take the airframe
> > ballistic at any time without stalling/spinning.
>
>I don't think I understand what you mean. Do you mean that if you, for
>example, enter without enough energy you can unload to zero AOA and just let
>the nose fall through?
Yes. The airplane just falls in a ballistic arc and I can use the AoA to
tell me how much I can pull even before I get "enough" airspeed. If I want
to pull out as soon as possible I just pull to set AoA right on best L:D
(is it marked on the AoA indicator) and modulate the pull to keep it right
there.
BTW there is only one time this doesn't work; if you happen to get a
perfectly vertical upline. I was working on getting a good hammerhead with
my CJ6 and it doesn't have quite enough rudder. It wouldn't go over so I
just closed the throttle and neutralized the stick. Mistake. The result
was a tailslide. I should have left the power and rudder in and let the
torque twist the airplane over the side and recovered later.
I will say one thing, I have learned more from this airplane than any other
one I have flown. I am not afraid to experiment with new ways to enter a
maneuver since it is unconditionally stable. If I blow it, I just recover
and try again.
BTW, using these techniques I was trying to find minimum entry speed for a
loop. My instructor had told me loop entry speed was 180 kts but that felt
unnecessarily high. I started at 150 kts and stepped down in 5 kt
increments from there. When I got to 120 kts, I ended up at zero airspeed
going over the top where the engine torqued the plane of the loop by 90
degrees. Even so I was able to keep the AoA within flying range so I
didn't fall out of the top of the loop. I do the same thing with differing
G's to enter the loop. It is fun to find out just how much margin I have
in the various maneuvers and how far I am from the edge of the
envelope. The AoA indicator is invaluable for doing this kind of flying.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
> Yes. The airplane just falls in a ballistic arc and I can use the AoA to
> tell me how much I can pull even before I get "enough" airspeed. If I want
> to pull out as soon as possible I just pull to set AoA right on best L:D
> (is it marked on the AoA indicator) and modulate the pull to keep it right
> there.
Clever. I was sold on AOA meters before, but now I'm really convinced I
want one. What kind do you have? Do I remember correctly that you had a
debate on the RV List a while back about one of the AOA instruments. Did
you end up getting that one, or did you choose something else?
> My instructor had told me loop entry speed was 180 kts but that felt
> unnecessarily high.
Yeah, that does sound high. We did loops in the jets (40 lb/ft
2 wing
loading) at 150 kias, and if you were really clean you could do it a bit
lower. I guess the thrust helped, but we might not have had that much
higher a thrust to weight ratio than your plane, at that speed.
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
At 08:05 PM 5/15/2001, you wrote:
>
> > Yes. The airplane just falls in a ballistic arc and I can use the AoA to
> > tell me how much I can pull even before I get "enough" airspeed. If I want
> > to pull out as soon as possible I just pull to set AoA right on best L:D
> > (is it marked on the AoA indicator) and modulate the pull to keep it right
> > there.
>
>Clever. I was sold on AOA meters before, but now I'm really convinced I
>want one. What kind do you have?
I have Proprietary Software Systems' unit. See:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lfrantz/
The only problem with it is that it only works for positive maneuvers.
>Do I remember correctly that you had a
>debate on the RV List a while back about one of the AOA instruments.
Yes I did. I raised a big stink. I suggested that the Lift Reserve
Indicator (LRI) didn't tell you what the manufacturer said it did. It sure
as heck doesn't tell you AoA. I have no idea how to interpret that
instrument.
The PSS AoA unit is quite clear in its presentation which is true
AoA. There are some other instruments out there that show real AoA but use
vanes to sense relative wind whereas the PSS unit uses the wing as a
probe. It is pretty cool.
> > My instructor had told me loop entry speed was 180 kts but that felt
> > unnecessarily high.
>
>Yeah, that does sound high. We did loops in the jets (40 lb/ft
2 wing
>loading) at 150 kias, and if you were really clean you could do it a bit
>lower. I guess the thrust helped, but we might not have had that much
>higher a thrust to weight ratio than your plane, at that speed.
Propeller-driven aircraft operate at constant horsepower, not constant
thrust. (This assumes a constant-speed prop.) The thrust decreases as the
square of the airspeed if I recall correctly. Also, every prop has its
"sweet spot" where it is most efficient at one rpm, power, and IAS. You
can tweak a prop to provide maximum thrust at minimum airspeed at the
expense of less efficiency at the top end. This tends to get you best
vertical penetration and low-speed operation, something that makes a big
difference to acro flyers.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
>You can tweak a prop to provide maximum thrust at minimum airspeed at the
>expense of less efficiency at the top end. This tends to get you best
>vertical penetration and low-speed operation, something that makes a big
>difference to acro flyers.
The more I think about this, the more I think I am wrong. I know that you
can tune for max thrust at low airspeeds, which is good for "powering" out
of a maneuver at low speed, but I am not sure about it being optimal for
vertical penetration.
We could also get into a discussion of "cornering speed", the speed at
which you make the smallest radius turn. This is another good number to
know when you have to minimize altitude loss in a low-altitude pull-out.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
And your AOA will also tell you that cornering speed info.
Boyd Braem
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
> >You can tweak a prop to provide maximum thrust at minimum airspeed at the
> >expense of less efficiency at the top end. This tends to get you best
> >vertical penetration and low-speed operation, something that makes a big
> >difference to acro flyers.
>
> The more I think about this, the more I think I am wrong. I know that you
> can tune for max thrust at low airspeeds, which is good for "powering" out
> of a maneuver at low speed, but I am not sure about it being optimal for
> vertical penetration.
>
> We could also get into a discussion of "cornering speed", the speed at
> which you make the smallest radius turn. This is another good number to
> know when you have to minimize altitude loss in a low-altitude pull-out.
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
At 12:41 PM 5/16/2001, you wrote:
>
>And your AOA will also tell you that cornering speed info.
How? It will tell me what my AoA is but I can adjust AoA at any
speed. AoA *will* tell me best L:D speed (it always occurs at the same
AoA) but AoA has no speed reference built in and we are talking about a
speed here.
Radius of turn increases with airspeed and decreases with increased G
loading. I have had one person tell me that cornering speed is also
maneuvering speed, i.e. the lowest speed at which you can pull maximum G
without stalling the aircraft. It makes sense but I haven't tried to prove
it one way or the other.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
>> And your AOA will also tell you that cornering speed info.
>
> How?
If you pull max G and max AOA at the same time you will be at corner speed.
That might be a bit tricky to do accurately, though.
> I have had one person tell me that cornering speed is also
> maneuvering speed, i.e. the lowest speed at which you can pull maximum G
> without stalling the aircraft.
For all practical purposes that's true.
Corner speed is either the lowest speed at which you can pull max G without
stalling, or the highest speed at which you can achieve max AOA without
overstressing. Mathematically they're the same thing.
Manoeuvring speed is the maximum speed at which full deflection of the
controls won't overstress the airplane. This could be different from corner
speed under certain circumstances. For example, the structural limit could
be in the tail, not the wing. But, generally speaking, for the kinds of
airplanes most of us fly, manoeuvring speed and corner speed are the same
speed.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
At 09:43 PM 5/16/2001, you wrote:
>
> >> And your AOA will also tell you that cornering speed info.
> >
> > How?
>
>If you pull max G and max AOA at the same time you will be at corner speed.
>That might be a bit tricky to do accurately, though.
That is the point, you can't tell that from the AoA alone. I have been
told that cornering speed (military term) and maneuvering speed (GA term)
are the same thing. If the definition of cornering speed is the highest
speed at which you can pull max-G without entering an accelerated stall,
they are indeed the same thing. You can calculate maneuvering speed. It is:
Vs * sqrt( max-G )
If your airplane stalls clean at 60 kts and has a max certified load factor
of 6G, your maneuvering speed will be:
60 * sqrt( 6 ) = 147 kts
At that speed the wing will stall just as you reach a 6G load on the
airframe. So this is a time where the ASI is more useful than AoA. The
nice thing about AoA is that you always know how far you are from the
low-speed end of the envelope regardless of speed and load factor. When
you are maneuvering and the airspeed is constantly changing, AoA tells you
what you need to know to avoid the stall but it doesn't help you protect
your airplane from pulling too hard on it.
BTW, all bets are off if you are pulling and rolling at the same
time. That introduces a twisting moment to the wing structure which may
exceed the design rating for the structure even tho' you don't think you
are pulling too hard.
> > I have had one person tell me that cornering speed is also
> > maneuvering speed, i.e. the lowest speed at which you can pull maximum G
> > without stalling the aircraft.
>
>For all practical purposes that's true.
>
>Corner speed is either the lowest speed at which you can pull max G without
>stalling, or the highest speed at which you can achieve max AOA without
>overstressing. Mathematically they're the same thing.
Right. I just need verification that cornering speed will produce the
smalles radius of turn and the minimum altitude lost in a pull-out.
>Manoeuvring speed is the maximum speed at which full deflection of the
>controls won't overstress the airplane. This could be different from corner
>speed under certain circumstances. For example, the structural limit could
>be in the tail, not the wing. But, generally speaking, for the kinds of
>airplanes most of us fly, manoeuvring speed and corner speed are the same
>speed.
Ahh good. Thanks for the info Ted.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PLTDBEEZER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
I believe corner velocity/maneuvering speed will give you the best RATE
of turn if you pull exactly to max allowable G. The smallest radious in all
airplanes I have flown occurs over a large range of airspeed below corner
velocity but well above stall speed. (I'm guessing around 90mph-maneuvering
speed in RV's)
The only AOA system I have found usefull in maneuvering are ones thet had
an aural tone when approching max AOA to avoid having to look inside.
Dave Beizer
RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
Maneuvering speed (Va) depends on a constant C/L (coefficient of lift)
(C lift max = the stall AOA). Thus, Va varies with the weight
(actually, the mass) of the plane, as in -- Va2 = Va1*sqrt(W2/W1).
Since mass, and angular momentum is involved, Brian is right that Va is
not always dependent on AOA because angle of bank will change the "load
factor", but not the "mass" of the plane during the turn. BUT, as a
general rule of thumb, if your AOA shows max Lift/Drag, that is the time
to pull to max Gs to get behind your bogey or to pull your min
radius/max rate turn.
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
> At 09:43 PM 5/16/2001, you wrote:
> >
> > >> And your AOA will also tell you that cornering speed info.
> > >
> > > How?
> >
> >If you pull max G and max AOA at the same time you will be at corner speed.
> >That might be a bit tricky to do accurately, though.
>
> That is the point, you can't tell that from the AoA alone. I have been
> told that cornering speed (military term) and maneuvering speed (GA term)
> are the same thing. If the definition of cornering speed is the highest
> speed at which you can pull max-G without entering an accelerated stall,
> they are indeed the same thing. You can calculate maneuvering speed. It is:
>
> Vs * sqrt( max-G )
>
> If your airplane stalls clean at 60 kts and has a max certified load factor
> of 6G, your maneuvering speed will be:
>
> 60 * sqrt( 6 ) = 147 kts
>
> At that speed the wing will stall just as you reach a 6G load on the
> airframe. So this is a time where the ASI is more useful than AoA. The
> nice thing about AoA is that you always know how far you are from the
> low-speed end of the envelope regardless of speed and load factor. When
> you are maneuvering and the airspeed is constantly changing, AoA tells you
> what you need to know to avoid the stall but it doesn't help you protect
> your airplane from pulling too hard on it.
>
> BTW, all bets are off if you are pulling and rolling at the same
> time. That introduces a twisting moment to the wing structure which may
> exceed the design rating for the structure even tho' you don't think you
> are pulling too hard.
>
> > > I have had one person tell me that cornering speed is also
> > > maneuvering speed, i.e. the lowest speed at which you can pull maximum G
> > > without stalling the aircraft.
> >
> >For all practical purposes that's true.
> >
> >Corner speed is either the lowest speed at which you can pull max G without
> >stalling, or the highest speed at which you can achieve max AOA without
> >overstressing. Mathematically they're the same thing.
>
> Right. I just need verification that cornering speed will produce the
> smalles radius of turn and the minimum altitude lost in a pull-out.
>
> >Manoeuvring speed is the maximum speed at which full deflection of the
> >controls won't overstress the airplane. This could be different from corner
> >speed under certain circumstances. For example, the structural limit could
> >be in the tail, not the wing. But, generally speaking, for the kinds of
> >airplanes most of us fly, manoeuvring speed and corner speed are the same
> >speed.
>
> Ahh good. Thanks for the info Ted.
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PLTDBEEZER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
Definition
- Rate of turn = degress of turn per second, ie 180 degrees of turn at 10
deg/sec = 18 sec.
- Turn diameter = Diameter of 180 deg turn, ie 1000 ft turn diameter
You will find that your turn diameter remains fairly constant when pulling to
near max aoa over a broad speed range in a similar configuration (no flaps)
Slower than maneuvering speed will result in a slower turn rate, ie it takes
longer to turn but doesn't necessarily increase the turn diameter.
I spend very little time looking directly forward when doing aerobatics as I
am generally looking for outside bank, pitch, and 90 degree references. On
over the tops I generally look back as far as possible to find the horizon
early to correct any bank. Looking to the sides when there is no horizon
helps prevents inadvertant banking.
Dave Beizer
RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Brian:
> You can calculate maneuvering speed. It is:
>
> Vs * sqrt( max-G )
Yes. But I think there might still be merit in trying to measure it
directly by pulling max G and max AOA simultaneously. I'm shooting from the
hip here, not having really thought about this before. But it seems to me
that your airspeed instrument error could be quite high under those
conditions (i.e. max AOA at relatively high speed), so that if you were
counting on a calculated corner speed you might be out by quite a bit.
> BTW, all bets are off if you are pulling and rolling at the same
> time. That introduces a twisting moment to the wing structure which may
> exceed the design rating for the structure even tho' you don't think you
> are pulling too hard.
Yes, it's very important to use a lower number for asymmetrical (rolling) G.
My memory's a bit foggy, but I believe the standard value used for military
jets is 80% of the symmetrical G limit.
I don't think the reason the asymmetricl G limit is lower is because of the
twisting moment. It's because the upgoing wing is actually loaded more, and
also loaded with a greater moment arm, because the aileron is deflected
down. That's why it's referred to as asymmetrical loading.
> Right. I just need verification that cornering speed will produce the
> smalles radius of turn and the minimum altitude lost in a pull-out.
Yes, you can't turn any tigher than that (without overstressing).
If you want to see it graphically, plot a line of turn radius v. speed for,
say, six G. Then plot a line of turn radius v. speed for a fixed lift
coefficent, beginning with a stall speed of, say, 50 mph. The lines will
look similar to the familiar "drag bucket" lines: one a rising parabola,
the other a declining inverse curve. The point where they cross is the
corner speed, and also the manoeuvring speed.
The point at which these two curves cross makes a distinct corner at the
bottom of the airplane's performance envelope. I have often wondered if the
term "corner speed" actually came from that, as opposed to the fact that it
is the speed at which you can turn the sharpest corner.
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
At 05:41 PM 5/17/2001, you wrote:
>
>Definition
>
>- Rate of turn = degress of turn per second, ie 180 degrees of turn at 10
>deg/sec = 18 sec.
>
>- Turn diameter = Diameter of 180 deg turn, ie 1000 ft turn diameter
>
>
>You will find that your turn diameter remains fairly constant when pulling to
>near max aoa over a broad speed range in a similar configuration (no flaps)
>Slower than maneuvering speed will result in a slower turn rate, ie it takes
>longer to turn but doesn't necessarily increase the turn diameter.
The useful reason for knowing cornering speed is when you really blow it at
low altitude and you want to get from vertical to horizontal without having
your flight path intersect the surface of the earth.
So what happens when you do this in a 1G field? At slower airspeeds the
rate of turn is slower so you lose more altitude before you get horizontal
again. I want to know what will get me from vertical to horizontal with
the minimum altitude lost.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Brian:
> I want to know what will get me from vertical to horizontal with
> the minimum altitude lost.
You want max G at corner speed.
If you are below corner speed in a nose low UA you should actually apply
full power. In the F5, an airplane with a very high corner speed, the
standard nose-low UA recovery procedure is wings level, full burner, full G.
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
At 09:30 PM 5/17/2001, you wrote:
>Yes, it's very important to use a lower number for asymmetrical (rolling) G.
>My memory's a bit foggy, but I believe the standard value used for military
>jets is 80% of the symmetrical G limit.
>
>I don't think the reason the asymmetricl G limit is lower is because of the
>twisting moment. It's because the upgoing wing is actually loaded more, and
>also loaded with a greater moment arm, because the aileron is deflected
>down. That's why it's referred to as asymmetrical loading.
Yes, the rising wing is loaded more. Also deflecting the ailerons shifts
the center of pressure forward or aft along the chord of the wing in the
vicinity of the ailerons relative to the rest of the wing. This introduces
a twisting moment in the wing structure of each wing and between the wings
as well.
> > Right. I just need verification that cornering speed will produce the
> > smalles radius of turn and the minimum altitude lost in a pull-out.
>
>Yes, you can't turn any tigher than that (without overstressing).
>
>If you want to see it graphically, plot a line of turn radius v. speed for,
>say, six G. Then plot a line of turn radius v. speed for a fixed lift
>coefficent, beginning with a stall speed of, say, 50 mph. The lines will
>look similar to the familiar "drag bucket" lines: one a rising parabola,
>the other a declining inverse curve. The point where they cross is the
>corner speed, and also the manoeuvring speed.
>
>The point at which these two curves cross makes a distinct corner at the
>bottom of the airplane's performance envelope. I have often wondered if the
>term "corner speed" actually came from that, as opposed to the fact that it
>is the speed at which you can turn the sharpest corner.
Could be.
Point: max AoA produces max lift at any speed.
Point: turning at the highest speed possible will produce the greatest rate
of turn and therefore the shortest time to change from vertical to
horizontal again.
I think that maybe doing a pull out at Va will net the least loss of altitude.
Question: is there any advantage to starting the pull out later in order to
get closer to Va?
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
At 09:57 PM 5/17/2001, you wrote:
>
>Brian:
>
> > I want to know what will get me from vertical to horizontal with
> > the minimum altitude lost.
>
>You want max G at corner speed.
That is what I was thinking.
>If you are below corner speed in a nose low UA you should actually apply
>full power. In the F5, an airplane with a very high corner speed, the
>standard nose-low UA recovery procedure is wings level, full burner, full G.
OK. I had heard that but it is nice to know why.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
> Question: is there any advantage to starting the pull out later in order to
> get closer to Va?
I tried to apply a little analysis to this question, but didn't get anywhere
with it. My gut feel, though, is that it's probably not worth it unless
your speed is so low that you'll be in danger of stalling a the bottom of
your pull out. That would only happen at very low speed (i.e. below 1 G
stall when you start recovering).
Consider the case where you're coming straight down. You'd have to decrease
your turn radius by one foot for every foot of altitude you lost delaying,
just to break even.
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Dave:
> You will find that your turn diameter remains fairly constant when pulling to
> near max aoa over a broad speed range in a similar configuration (no flaps)
> Slower than maneuvering speed will result in a slower turn rate, ie it takes
> longer to turn but doesn't necessarily increase the turn diameter.
Plot it out, Dave. You will find that your turn radius decreases quite
dramatically as speed increases, up to limiting load factor. Remember,
you're beginning from a turn radius of infinity at level flight stall. From
there it drops rapidly, but gradually levelling out, until you hit your load
limit, at which point it starts rising again. That's one reason fighter
pilots say, "Speed is life."
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
Hi all,
Remember to practice at a safe altitude. The most useless things in aviation
are burnt fuel, runway length behind you, and those feet of sky above you
;-)
:
>
> > I want to know what will get me from vertical to horizontal with
> > the minimum altitude lost.
>
> You want max G at corner speed.
>
> If you are below corner speed in a nose low UA you should actually apply
> full power. In the F5, an airplane with a very high corner speed, the
> standard nose-low UA recovery procedure is wings level, full burner, full
G.
>
Agreed, but if you really blow your aerobatic maneuver, chances are you'll
be already at full throttle, except in spins or snap rolls. But our light
aircraft have so small maneuvering radiuses that altitude loss is not a real
problem during practice.
I consider 3000' agl as a correct altitude for dual with beginners.
Advanced student can safely fly between 2000' and 3000' agl when being
critiqued from ground. If your instructor/ training partner says he can't
see you clearly at those altitudes, well it's time he thinks about wearing
glasses ;-)
And please forget about the split-S. We do that, but only with well trained
and proficient students, and NEVER NEVER from cruise speed.
Cheers
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
Dave,
----- Message d'origine -----
De :
:
Envoy : vendredi 18 mai 2001 02:41
Objet : Re: Aerobatic-List: AoA and loops
> I spend very little time looking directly forward when doing aerobatics as
I
> am generally looking for outside bank, pitch, and 90 degree references.
On
> over the tops I generally look back as far as possible to find the horizon
> early to correct any bank. Looking to the sides when there is no horizon
> helps prevents inadvertant banking.
>
Most right.
Looking for horizon references is the key : during a "vertical" climb or
dive, I look at my wing tip wire triangle.
Some people in France are working on different types of aural G-load
indication devices. To date, no one in our area has yet felt the need for an
AoA indication for aerobatics. But that does not mean it could not help.
Cheers,
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
>
>Some people in France are working on different types of aural G-load
>indication devices. To date, no one in our area has yet felt the need for an
>AoA indication for aerobatics. But that does not mean it could not help.
Tell me what you would like. I am designing a new line of avionics with
the engine monitor and air data computer coming first. The key is aural
alerting. What would you like the hardware to tell you?
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
, Sirs and madams, My humble opinion. I am a High School Physics teacher,
holder of 9 out of ten IAC aerobatic award patches, curently competing in
Yak-55 (for sale by the way) and SU-29 in Advanced and Unlimited with 500
hours acro and 10,000tt. I aaspire to be a pimple on Phil Knight's or Kirby
Chambliss' butts.
please don't worry about what in Physics make the plane do a loop. Have a
qualified instructor show you what a good loop looks like from the cockpit.
Then have a good critiquer watch you do loops from the ground. It is the
judge on the ground that scores your figures. Trust me they are all done by
feel dealing with the air mass you are currently having to deal with. Also,
FACT if you use "max G" at the corner, Sukhoi, Yak, Cub, whatever, you WILL
scrub off so much energy you will loose a ton of performance for completing
your sequence. No better than I am I have demonstrated to my students the
Yak-52 will do a pretty, albeit large, loop using no more than a 3 G pull.
A 6.5 G pull makes a nice tight loop but is an energy waster. 4 G loop
works well for the -52 in competition. By the way I placed in the middle of
the pack at the 1998 US Nationals in my Yak-52 NX52CG in intermediate,
energy conservation is the key. Good luck, Fly safely, remember the "box"
for Basic and Sportsman is no lower than 1,500' AGL (place to pull) and the
top is 3,500'agl, but don't let that stop you from going higher. Rick B PS
we do snaps at full power 100% and full blower but less than full speed,
usually 260 clicks + or - in -55 -29
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
gilles.thesee
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: AoA and loops
Hi all,
Remember to practice at a safe altitude. The most useless things in aviation
are burnt fuel, runway length behind you, and those feet of sky above you
;-)
:
>
> > I want to know what will get me from vertical to horizontal with
> > the minimum altitude lost.
>
> You want max G at corner speed.
>
> If you are below corner speed in a nose low UA you should actually apply
> full power. In the F5, an airplane with a very high corner speed, the
> standard nose-low UA recovery procedure is wings level, full burner, full
G.
>
Agreed, but if you really blow your aerobatic maneuver, chances are you'll
be already at full throttle, except in spins or snap rolls. But our light
aircraft have so small maneuvering radiuses that altitude loss is not a real
problem during practice.
I consider 3000' agl as a correct altitude for dual with beginners.
Advanced student can safely fly between 2000' and 3000' agl when being
critiqued from ground. If your instructor/ training partner says he can't
see you clearly at those altitudes, well it's time he thinks about wearing
glasses ;-)
And please forget about the split-S. We do that, but only with well trained
and proficient students, and NEVER NEVER from cruise speed.
Cheers
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
Rick,
Have a
> qualified instructor show you what a good loop looks like from the
cockpit.
> Then have a good critiquer watch you do loops from the ground. It is the
> judge on the ground that scores your figures. Trust me they are all done
by
> feel dealing with the air mass you are currently having to deal with.
Also,
> FACT if you use "max G" at the corner, Sukhoi, Yak, Cub, whatever, you
WILL
> scrub off so much energy you will loose a ton of performance for
completing
> your sequence.
Perfectly right
Good luck, Fly safely, remember the "box"
> for Basic and Sportsman is no lower than 1,500' AGL (place to pull) and
the
> top is 3,500'agl, but don't let that stop you from going higher
In France the box "floor" is at 1000' agl for Basic an Sportsman, and 330'
for Advanced and Unlimited.
> we do snaps at full power 100% and full blower but less than full speed,
> usually 260 clicks + or - in -55 -29
Sorry for my mistake (typing too fast ?). You're right on full power doing
snaps.
I too happen to be a High School physics teacher, but not fortunate enough
to own an aerobatic aircraft ;-)
In 1989 I had the opportunity to finish 5th in the French Advanced
aerobatics championship, just behind a gifted young team mate. The year
after we co-owned a competition homebuilt (Feugray's TR 200) to compete in
the Unlimited qualifications. I failed, he won, and became a member of the
French aerobatics Team. His name is Xavier De Lapparent, he eventually
became World Champion. Xavier wrote very interesting books on unlimited and
advanced aerobatics, packed with FACTS on aerodynamics, competition flying,
etc.. I suppose an English version is available and would strongly recommend
it, regardless of anyone's level.
I owe much much to Xavier's advices and critiquing. We consider him as some
kind of flying "alien". He can fly a machine at speeds at which everyone
woulld stall.
In France we fly with sealed calibrated official G-meters at each
competition, up to Advanced. We get penalties for exceeding +5 or -3.5.
In 1999 I finished 13th in the French Advanced, due to pushing -3.6
or -3.7.
thank you for your contribution,
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
Rick,
Thanks for "the edge"-ucated perspective. I was getting lost in the
sauce.
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PLTDBEEZER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
I have studied several air force trainer/fighter V/N diagrams with turn
radius overlays in preparation for courses I took. Turn radius remains
fairly constant at Max AOA over a wide range of speed (F-16 range is around
100 Knots I believe, the F4C turn radius remained constant from 300 to 450
KIAS at max AOA) Max turn rate occured only at corner velocity. I have yet
to see a VN diagram for an RV as it takes extensive and accurate testing but
I'm reasonably certain the results would be similar.
Dave Beizer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Dave:
> I have studied several air force trainer/fighter V/N diagrams with turn
> radius overlays in preparation for courses I took. Turn radius remains
> fairly constant at Max AOA over a wide range of speed
--snip--
> I have yet
> to see a VN diagram for an RV as it takes extensive and accurate testing but
> I'm reasonably certain the results would be similar.
With a fighter, you are seeing two things that you would not see with an RV
or other light airplane. The first is the combined effects of automatic
configuration changes and wing planforms designed for supersonic flight.
These result in higher lift coefficients being available at speeds well
below Vc than are available at Vc. The second is the effect of a high wing
loading combined with a high structural limit. These two factors combined
result in a lift-limit curve (i.e. the part below Vc) that is very
"stretched out" horizontally, resulting in a relatively flat zone for a
hundred knots or more below Vc. It can even result in the minimum turn
radius occuring well below Vc.
You would not observe those effects if you were to chart the performance of
an RV, or indeed any stright-wing, low speed airplane.
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
At 03:07 PM 5/18/2001, you wrote:
>
>I have studied several air force trainer/fighter V/N diagrams with turn
>radius overlays in preparation for courses I took. Turn radius remains
>fairly constant at Max AOA over a wide range of speed (F-16 range is around
>100 Knots I believe, the F4C turn radius remained constant from 300 to 450
>KIAS at max AOA) Max turn rate occured only at corner velocity. I have yet
>to see a VN diagram for an RV as it takes extensive and accurate testing but
>I'm reasonably certain the results would be similar.
You are undoubtedly right for horizontal turns. I was thinking of a
minimum altitude lost pull-out. I was talking about a vertical turn in a
1-G field.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Well, it's time to eat a little crow.
I wasn't satisfied with the answer I gave Dave Beizer about the level turn
performance of an RV. So I worked it out based on the published performance
figures for an RV-6, from Van's web site. You can see the results by
scrolling to the bottom of the home page at
http://www.vansairforce.org
I was surprised at how flat the lift limit line actually is, for the RV-6,
between 105 mph and corner speed (about 137 mph). It's not as flat as you
would get with a jet fighter, but it's flatter than I expected. By the way,
these curves are for an RV-6 at 1375 pounds (aerobatic max), with a 6 G
limiting load factor.
I made these curves for level turns, because that was the direction the
discussion had gone. But I think we started out talking about recovery from
a nose-low UA. The curves would be pretty much the same for that case,
though the actual turn radius would be different because of the effects of
gravity. What this implies is that from about 75 percent Vc up to Vc
there's only a small reduction in turn radius, implying that it's not worth
waiting for the extra speed before affecting your recovery.
The other thing that the curves make clear is how much of a penalty you pay
(in turn radius) above Vc.
A third thing worth noting is just how small the turn radius actually is.
If this isn't enough to keep you from hitting the ground, you are really
pushing things. At Vc you'd have to be below 250 AGL and going straight
down to not be able to miss the ground.
The exact numbers would be different for a different airplane, but any
straight-wing light airplane would have curves that look very much like
this.
Tedd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com> |
| Subject: | RVs for aerobatics |
First, I want to compliment the authors of the communications I've seen on
this list in recent weeks. The messages have been both literate and
learned; these are properties I do not always see in aviation postings!
Thank you.
I have a question pertaining to aerobatics in Van's aircraft (not the -9,
though). I'm an experienced pilot (most recently, an A-36 Bonanza) who is
on the cusp of deciding to build an RV-7. As an aerobatic pilot, though, I
am a raw beginner, having had only a few lessons. (At this stage of my
career I wouldn't dare attempt aerobatics on my own.) One reason for
building a plane, apart from the joy and challenge of the process, is to
acquire an appropriate plane for developing my aerobatic skills.
How suitable do you folks think an RV is for this purpose? At first blush,
it seems like a good choice. However, the airframe is undeniably very
clean, and a recent post alluded to the speed with which these planes will
accelerate on a downline. This doesn't seem like a terrific property for a
beginner to deal with. A nice, draggy biplane would fill this bill, but
probably not the other ones I have in mind.
If not great for a beginning aerobat, for what level of pilot _would_ you
recommend it?
Thanks for your input.
Rick McCraw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lucky macy" <luckymacy(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RVs for aerobatics |
You are sure to get some opinions on this one. I had to wrestle with the
same sort of questions myself and consulted a big name local aerobatic pilot
for some advice.
The RV can do fine sport aerobatics and safely. Some people have written
me privately detailing how they compete with RVs in IAC contests. You
should be able to get safely up the learning curve by getting a qualified
aerobatic instructor with RV experience to show you how to hit the numbers
the RV way in addition to reading Van's primer on RV aerobatics.
If you've flown a large aerobatic monoplane like an Extra 300L with a IO540,
you'll know how nice it is to have a LARGE constant speed prop on the down
lines helping to reduce acceleration. BUT with this smaller engine found on
RV size planes the prop isn't nearly as effective a break so maybe try to
get some RV time with both prop set ups and determine for yourself if you
think it's worth it.
Do consider fuel injection and an inverted oil system. That to me is more
valuable than a constant speed prop.
good luck,
lucky
>From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
>Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Aerobatic-List: RVs for aerobatics
>Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:39:17 -0400
>
>
>First, I want to compliment the authors of the communications I've seen on
>this list in recent weeks. The messages have been both literate and
>learned; these are properties I do not always see in aviation postings!
>Thank you.
>
>I have a question pertaining to aerobatics in Van's aircraft (not the -9,
>though). I'm an experienced pilot (most recently, an A-36 Bonanza) who is
>on the cusp of deciding to build an RV-7. As an aerobatic pilot, though, I
>am a raw beginner, having had only a few lessons. (At this stage of my
>career I wouldn't dare attempt aerobatics on my own.) One reason for
>building a plane, apart from the joy and challenge of the process, is to
>acquire an appropriate plane for developing my aerobatic skills.
>
>How suitable do you folks think an RV is for this purpose? At first blush,
>it seems like a good choice. However, the airframe is undeniably very
>clean, and a recent post alluded to the speed with which these planes will
>accelerate on a downline. This doesn't seem like a terrific property for a
>beginner to deal with. A nice, draggy biplane would fill this bill, but
>probably not the other ones I have in mind.
>
>If not great for a beginning aerobat, for what level of pilot _would_ you
>recommend it?
>
>Thanks for your input.
>
>Rick McCraw
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | RV-6, G's and turns |
At 07:57 AM 5/20/2001, you wrote:
>
>The Super 6 has Harmon Rocket wing mods and wing tips (Ollie Brennon's).
> Wing span is 22.4, average measure (the wingtips flare outward from
>front to back).
>
>G envelope: accelerated stalls
>110 mph at 3.8 g
>120 mph at 5.0 g
>130 mph at 5.8 g
>137 mph at 6.0 g (which would be the cornering velocity--max rate, min radius)
>
>Did not have AOA installed at the time of these tests.
>
>Boyd Braem
>N600SS
>do*not*archive
This is actually useful information for the archive. Someone might want to
look this up in the future. I would not have added the last line of your
signature. That phrase is overused.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RVs for aerobatics |
I have flown a couple of different aircraft doing casual sport aerobatics
including the RV-4, Citabria (150hp, flat wing), Christen Eagle, Nanchang
CJ6A, and Yak-52. Right now I own a CJ6A and that is what I fly. I never
felt quite as comfortable or as sure of myself in the RV-4 as I did in the
others. Of the bunch I think the Yak-52 is the best acro training
aircraft. The price is right on the -52 also.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gilles.thesee" <gilles.thesee(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: AoA and loops |
Brian,
> >Some people in France are working on different types of aural G-load
> >indication devices. To date, no one in our area has yet felt the need for
an
> >AoA indication for aerobatics. But that does not mean it could not help.
>
> Tell me what you would like. I am designing a new line of avionics with
> the engine monitor and air data computer coming first. The key is aural
> alerting. What would you like the hardware to tell you?
>
>
To date somme prototypes are in use, but none of them features all the
following characteristics :
Recording of previous flights max G-loads with date and time.
Count of G cycles endured.(Fatigue cycle monitoring)
Audio tone indication, for instance adjustable pitch tone according to
target G-load. I was thinking of something resembling the audio VSI on
sailplanes.
Some instruments I flew with could record but had no or very poor audio
warning, in the form of a few beeps that were of no use.
The variable tone could correspond to the actual G-load, with quick change
when approaching the chosen target G-load.
The possiblity to edit the recording with a computer, coupled with the
aerodynamic data could enable us to improve energy management during an
aerobatic routine.
Of course, that is just some thoughts...
Cheers,
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Bradley" <wabpilot(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RVs for aerobatics |
Rick,
My two cents on RVs: They are clean, like a Bonanza. That means they build
up speed quickly. Someone earlier mentioned that he flew one 100 mph past
VNE! Since it's a homebuilt, no one can tell what standard was used for
establishing VNE. If it was a production plane, VNE would be determined by
flutter testing. Once the slowest flutter speed is detected, VNE is
established at 90% thereof. If you adhere to that formula in an RV, I would
doubt that you could survive an excursion 100 mph beyond VNE. Thus some
other method must have been used to determine VNE. Or the pilot must have
been very lucky! Personally, I prefer to stick to production planes for
aerobatics. They are thoroughly flight tested. (I too am a very rank amateur
when it comes to aerobatics.)
Alan Bradley
A36 N16SF
>From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
>Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Aerobatic-List: RVs for aerobatics
>Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:39:17 -0400
>
>
>First, I want to compliment the authors of the communications I've seen on
>this list in recent weeks. The messages have been both literate and
>learned; these are properties I do not always see in aviation postings!
>Thank you.
>
>I have a question pertaining to aerobatics in Van's aircraft (not the -9,
>though). I'm an experienced pilot (most recently, an A-36 Bonanza) who is
>on the cusp of deciding to build an RV-7. As an aerobatic pilot, though, I
>am a raw beginner, having had only a few lessons. (At this stage of my
>career I wouldn't dare attempt aerobatics on my own.) One reason for
>building a plane, apart from the joy and challenge of the process, is to
>acquire an appropriate plane for developing my aerobatic skills.
>
>How suitable do you folks think an RV is for this purpose? At first blush,
>it seems like a good choice. However, the airframe is undeniably very
>clean, and a recent post alluded to the speed with which these planes will
>accelerate on a downline. This doesn't seem like a terrific property for a
>beginner to deal with. A nice, draggy biplane would fill this bill, but
>probably not the other ones I have in mind.
>
>If not great for a beginning aerobat, for what level of pilot _would_ you
>recommend it?
>
>Thanks for your input.
>
>Rick McCraw
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RVs for aerobatics |
At 01:22 PM 5/22/2001, you wrote:
>
>Rick,
>
>My two cents on RVs: They are clean, like a Bonanza. That means they build
>up speed quickly. Someone earlier mentioned that he flew one 100 mph past
>VNE! Since it's a homebuilt, no one can tell what standard was used for
>establishing VNE.
I was the one who mentioned that my RV-4 had exceeded Vne by 100 mph. As a
qualifier, I was not in the aircraft. It was the builder and someone else.
>If it was a production plane, VNE would be determined by
>flutter testing. Once the slowest flutter speed is detected, VNE is
>established at 90% thereof.
Are you 100% sure about that? I was under the impression that Vne was set
by the designer based on calculated dynamic load factors and then the
aircraft was tested at 110% of Vne (Vd -- maximum dive speed) to determine
that there was no flutter at that speed. Flutter is not something you want
to try to induce since it can be divergent and result in catastrophic
airframe failure more rapidly than the pilot can respond. All they try to
determine is whether there is sufficient flutter margin at Vne. The speed
at the onset of flutter may be substantially higher than Vd so they just
mark the area beyond Vd as "here be dragons."
(Disclaimer: I am repeating this from memory and I could very well be
wrong. I invite correction since I don't like to promulgate incorrect
information.)
>If you adhere to that formula in an RV, I would
>doubt that you could survive an excursion 100 mph beyond VNE. Thus some
>other method must have been used to determine VNE.
That is what I was thinking.
>Or the pilot must have been very lucky!
I suspect that this is also true. The only sign of damage was a single
spanwise crack along the trailing edge of the elevator. We built a new
elevator for it.
>Personally, I prefer to stick to production planes for
>aerobatics. They are thoroughly flight tested. (I too am a very rank amateur
>when it comes to aerobatics.)
I think you will find that Dick VanGrunsven did substantial testing of the
RV line. Their safety record is admirable.
As to acro in the RV-6 and RV-7, Van's recommends against spins in the RV-6
so that might be a consideration for someone. As I recall from discussions
of spins on the rv-list a couple of years ago, the RV-6 winds up pretty
quickly and the turbulent airflow over the tail results in reduced control
effectiveness and a somewhat rough ride. I have never spun an RV-6 so I
can't comment directly.
The RV-4 spins nicely. I haven't heard anything pro or con WRT the RV-7,
RV-8, or RV-9.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)home.com> |
"aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com"
| Subject: | Re: RVs for aerobatics |
A commercial or military airplane is never flown "to flutter"
because that is usually a terminal event and the pilot would only
survive if
nested in a nice Martin-Baker ejection seat.
Vc (cruise speed), Vne and Vd (max dive speed) are determined by
calculating wing loading excess at gust speeds of +50 ft/sec and + 25
ft/sec (FAR part 23). Generally speaking, FAR 23.335 says for normal
category aircraft, Vd = 1.4 Vc; utility aircraft Vd = 1.5 Vc; for
aerobatic aircraft Vd = 1.55 Vc. For most aircraft Vc is a little
higher than Va, but Vc needs to be known to confirm the calculation of
Vd. As a comparison, a 50 ft/sec gust is
around 3,000 ft/min or 35 mph up/down. Vc is the max 50 ft/sec limit
and Vd is the max 25 ft/sec limit. Vne is 90% of Vd. Again, I repeat
that flutter
does not have to be demonstrated and if the control surfaces are well
designed and constructed, flutter may not occur at all, even at speeds
100 mph above Vne. There may be other parts of the aircraft that limit
Vne due to other structural concerns. But, the FAA requires that the
plane be flown to Vd without any signs of flutter.
Also remember that the "limit load" is specified by the manufacturer (it
may be you) and the "ultimate load" is 1.5 x limit load. There are many
experimental aircraft that can and are built to load limits in excess of
those in production aircraft. Determining the V-n diagram/profile for
an aircraft is not that complicated. I have done it for my modified
RV-6. There are software programs available that will predict your
aircraft's performance and then you verify thru flight testing. If
there are major discrepancies, it may help you isolate a construction
flaw, change a design parameter or, simply, find a software glitch. If
your flight data is good, the software can help you confirm certain "AOA
speeds": max L/D, best glide, best endurance, approach speed, etc.
Boyd Braem
RV-Super 6
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
> At 01:22 PM 5/22/2001, you wrote:
> >
> >Rick,
> >
> >My two cents on RVs: They are clean, like a Bonanza. That means they build
> >up speed quickly. Someone earlier mentioned that he flew one 100 mph past
> >VNE! Since it's a homebuilt, no one can tell what standard was used for
> >establishing VNE.
>
> I was the one who mentioned that my RV-4 had exceeded Vne by 100 mph. As a
> qualifier, I was not in the aircraft. It was the builder and someone else.
>
> >If it was a production plane, VNE would be determined by
> >flutter testing. Once the slowest flutter speed is detected, VNE is
> >established at 90% thereof.
>
> Are you 100% sure about that? I was under the impression that Vne was set
> by the designer based on calculated dynamic load factors and then the
> aircraft was tested at 110% of Vne (Vd -- maximum dive speed) to determine
> that there was no flutter at that speed. Flutter is not something you want
> to try to induce since it can be divergent and result in catastrophic
> airframe failure more rapidly than the pilot can respond. All they try to
> determine is whether there is sufficient flutter margin at Vne. The speed
> at the onset of flutter may be substantially higher than Vd so they just
> mark the area beyond Vd as "here be dragons."
>
> (Disclaimer: I am repeating this from memory and I could very well be
> wrong. I invite correction since I don't like to promulgate incorrect
> information.)
>
> >If you adhere to that formula in an RV, I would
> >doubt that you could survive an excursion 100 mph beyond VNE. Thus some
> >other method must have been used to determine VNE.
>
> That is what I was thinking.
>
> >Or the pilot must have been very lucky!
>
> I suspect that this is also true. The only sign of damage was a single
> spanwise crack along the trailing edge of the elevator. We built a new
> elevator for it.
>
> >Personally, I prefer to stick to production planes for
> >aerobatics. They are thoroughly flight tested. (I too am a very rank amateur
> >when it comes to aerobatics.)
>
> I think you will find that Dick VanGrunsven did substantial testing of the
> RV line. Their safety record is admirable.
>
> As to acro in the RV-6 and RV-7, Van's recommends against spins in the RV-6
> so that might be a consideration for someone. As I recall from discussions
> of spins on the rv-list a couple of years ago, the RV-6 winds up pretty
> quickly and the turbulent airflow over the tail results in reduced control
> effectiveness and a somewhat rough ride. I have never spun an RV-6 so I
> can't comment directly.
>
> The RV-4 spins nicely. I haven't heard anything pro or con WRT the RV-7,
> RV-8, or RV-9.
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian(at)lloyd.com
> +1.530.676.1113 - voice
> +1.360.838.9669 - fax
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeros and FP Props |
At 10:41 PM 5/1/2001, you wrote:
>If the exit speed is the same as the entry speed, and the speed during the
>manoeuvre is no greater (as in a loop, for example), why would there be any
>need to adjust power?
Because, if you have a fixed-pitch prop, engine RPM and, hence, power,
varies with airspeed. When airspeed is high you need to reduce throttle to
prevent engine overspeed and when airspeed is low you need to increase
throttle to keep the thrust up there.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com> |
I've been looking for a construction project, and may have found one in the
form of a Steen Skybolt. When whole, it was reported to be a
well-constructed example, with a Lycoming IO-360 with inverted systems and a
fixed-pitch prop.
Now that it's been put onto its back, it needs a repaired or new top wing,
an engine teardown (likely with a new crankshaft), new prop, and some new
longerons in the fuselage. I assume the vertical tail needs work, too.
Before I proceed, I'll look closely along with an AI, but my question here
concerns Skybolts in general. I've never flown one (nor any biplane, for
that matter). Have any of you folks flown a Skybolt? It seems to have a
good reputation, but I've yet to communicate with anyone who's flown one.
What is your collective opinion? Would it be worth the additional expense
of putting a constant-speed prop onto it?
Thanks for any advice you can provide.
. . . Rick McCraw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Caldwell" <racaldwell(at)hotmail.com> |
Hello Rick,
No, I have not flown a Skybolt. but my hangarmate is the chief pilot for
Steen and I have flown beside him in my RV-6. We have been critiquing each
others aerobatics from the air.
The Skybolt looks like fun! But it really boils down to what you want. It's
more of an aerobatic trainer than an aerobatic competition machine. It's
nothing like a Pitts. Of course ths CS prop will improve climb, not just on
TO, but on vertical maneuvers, too.
The new Steen Aerolab they are setting up here in town is fanastic. They're
getting computer controlled machines up & running now. They are making very
precise parts at a very quick rate. If you do rebuild the Skybolt, you will
be well supported.
Myself, I'm thinking of the Pitts S-1-11B or perhaps an F1 Rocket.
Rick Caldwell
RV-6 Melbourne, FL
>From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
>Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Aerobatic-List: Skybolts?
>Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:12:19 -0400
>
>
>I've been looking for a construction project, and may have found one in the
>form of a Steen Skybolt. When whole, it was reported to be a
>well-constructed example, with a Lycoming IO-360 with inverted systems and
>a
>fixed-pitch prop.
>
>Now that it's been put onto its back, it needs a repaired or new top wing,
>an engine teardown (likely with a new crankshaft), new prop, and some new
>longerons in the fuselage. I assume the vertical tail needs work, too.
>
>Before I proceed, I'll look closely along with an AI, but my question here
>concerns Skybolts in general. I've never flown one (nor any biplane, for
>that matter). Have any of you folks flown a Skybolt? It seems to have a
>good reputation, but I've yet to communicate with anyone who's flown one.
>
>What is your collective opinion? Would it be worth the additional expense
>of putting a constant-speed prop onto it?
>
>Thanks for any advice you can provide.
>
>. . . Rick McCraw
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com> |
Rick,
Thanks for your response. I'm intrigued by what you said about Steen
Aerolabs: Weren't they in North Carolina? Are they moving, branching out, or
what? Has the company changed hands? Seems like I heard a rumor to that
effect.
. . . Rick McCraw
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rick
Caldwell
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Skybolts?
Hello Rick,
No, I have not flown a Skybolt. but my hangarmate is the chief pilot for
Steen and I have flown beside him in my RV-6. We have been critiquing each
others aerobatics from the air.
The Skybolt looks like fun! But it really boils down to what you want. It's
more of an aerobatic trainer than an aerobatic competition machine. It's
nothing like a Pitts. Of course ths CS prop will improve climb, not just on
TO, but on vertical maneuvers, too.
The new Steen Aerolab they are setting up here in town is fanastic. They're
getting computer controlled machines up & running now. They are making very
precise parts at a very quick rate. If you do rebuild the Skybolt, you will
be well supported.
Myself, I'm thinking of the Pitts S-1-11B or perhaps an F1 Rocket.
Rick Caldwell
RV-6 Melbourne, FL
>From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
>Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Aerobatic-List: Skybolts?
>Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:12:19 -0400
>
>
>I've been looking for a construction project, and may have found one in the
>form of a Steen Skybolt. When whole, it was reported to be a
>well-constructed example, with a Lycoming IO-360 with inverted systems and
>a
>fixed-pitch prop.
>
>Now that it's been put onto its back, it needs a repaired or new top wing,
>an engine teardown (likely with a new crankshaft), new prop, and some new
>longerons in the fuselage. I assume the vertical tail needs work, too.
>
>Before I proceed, I'll look closely along with an AI, but my question here
>concerns Skybolts in general. I've never flown one (nor any biplane, for
>that matter). Have any of you folks flown a Skybolt? It seems to have a
>good reputation, but I've yet to communicate with anyone who's flown one.
>
>What is your collective opinion? Would it be worth the additional expense
>of putting a constant-speed prop onto it?
>
>Thanks for any advice you can provide.
>
>. . . Rick McCraw
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Caldwell" <racaldwell(at)hotmail.com> |
The company was sold. Hale Wallace died of cancer. He sold it to Jerry &
Paul who live here before he died. Jerry owns a successful company in Palm
Bay just south of here called Data Management. Data Mgmnt is now the parent
company of Steen Aerolabs and Aircraft Shapes. Aicraft Shapes is being set
up to manufacture aircraft parts for kit plane (or other) suppliers. They
are setting up CNC plasma cutters, CNC routers, CNC water jet cutting system
& a CNC TIG welder. Their new shop for the aircraft subsidairies is very
impressive. They have so many tools that I'd love to learn how to use. It's
an airplane builder's dream shop.
Hale's yellow Skybolt was part of the package. It has a 325 hp Barret
modified Lycoming with a 3 blade Hoffman prop. The climb is unreal. I've
seen it, but yet to ride in it. But it slows down faster than my RV-6. I
was flying in-trail right on his tail when he pulled up into vertical. I
thought we were doing a loop. Then he did a roll. That really slowed him
down. I started my roll but realized I was gaining too much so pulled out to
the side and stopped my roll to keep him in sight. Then I called that I'm
breaking away and loosing sight so I'd head east.
It was an eye opener. I think I'll just play with the other RV's since we
all have the same flight character. The pilot who flys the Skybolt owns an
RV-4.
Rick
>From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
>Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: Aerobatic-List: Skybolts?
>Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:01:50 -0400
>
>
>Rick,
>
>Thanks for your response. I'm intrigued by what you said about Steen
>Aerolabs: Weren't they in North Carolina? Are they moving, branching out,
>or
>what? Has the company changed hands? Seems like I heard a rumor to that
>effect.
>
>. . . Rick McCraw
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rick
>Caldwell
>Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 12:20 PM
>To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Skybolts?
>
>
>
>
>Hello Rick,
>
>No, I have not flown a Skybolt. but my hangarmate is the chief pilot for
>Steen and I have flown beside him in my RV-6. We have been critiquing each
>others aerobatics from the air.
>
>The Skybolt looks like fun! But it really boils down to what you want. It's
>more of an aerobatic trainer than an aerobatic competition machine. It's
>nothing like a Pitts. Of course ths CS prop will improve climb, not just on
>TO, but on vertical maneuvers, too.
>
>The new Steen Aerolab they are setting up here in town is fanastic. They're
>getting computer controlled machines up & running now. They are making very
>precise parts at a very quick rate. If you do rebuild the Skybolt, you will
>be well supported.
>
>Myself, I'm thinking of the Pitts S-1-11B or perhaps an F1 Rocket.
>
>Rick Caldwell
>RV-6 Melbourne, FL
>
>
> >From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
> >Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
> >To:
> >Subject: Aerobatic-List: Skybolts?
> >Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 22:12:19 -0400
> >
> >
> >I've been looking for a construction project, and may have found one in
>the
> >form of a Steen Skybolt. When whole, it was reported to be a
> >well-constructed example, with a Lycoming IO-360 with inverted systems
>and
> >a
> >fixed-pitch prop.
> >
> >Now that it's been put onto its back, it needs a repaired or new top
>wing,
> >an engine teardown (likely with a new crankshaft), new prop, and some new
> >longerons in the fuselage. I assume the vertical tail needs work, too.
> >
> >Before I proceed, I'll look closely along with an AI, but my question
>here
> >concerns Skybolts in general. I've never flown one (nor any biplane, for
> >that matter). Have any of you folks flown a Skybolt? It seems to have a
> >good reputation, but I've yet to communicate with anyone who's flown one.
> >
> >What is your collective opinion? Would it be worth the additional
>expense
> >of putting a constant-speed prop onto it?
> >
> >Thanks for any advice you can provide.
> >
> >. . . Rick McCraw
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tracy R Reed <treed(at)ultraviolet.org> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
I see zero traffic on this list so I'm not sure anyone will reply but here
goes:
Does anyone know of any aerobatic training available in San Diego? I'm
about to finish up my instrument rating and I am going to want to take a
break from all of the studying and learn some aerobatics before I dive
into commercial and CFI.
--
Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
Sorry, please try again. Thank you for taking the Turing test.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Caldwell" <racaldwell(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: San Diego aerobatic training? |
You're right, Tracy, no much activity on this list. Sorry I can't help you;
I live in FL. I highly recommend you follow through with your plan. You
won't imagine the fun and confidence aerobatics adds to your abilities as a
pilot. I'm new to it (1 1/2 yrs) and still get the excitiment going just
thinking about going out flying aerobatics. Definetely takes the boredom out
of flying.
Rick Caldwell
RV-6
Melbourne, FL
>From: Tracy R Reed <treed(at)ultraviolet.org>
>Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:09:48 -0700
>
>
>I see zero traffic on this list so I'm not sure anyone will reply but here
>goes:
>
>Does anyone know of any aerobatic training available in San Diego? I'm
>about to finish up my instrument rating and I am going to want to take a
>break from all of the studying and learn some aerobatics before I dive
>into commercial and CFI.
>
>--
>Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
>Sorry, please try again. Thank you for taking the Turing test.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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>=Kv3j
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
Tracy; Try the International Aerobatic Club home page and look for an IAC
chapter in your area. When you contact them you will be directed to some
great aerobatic CFI's. More and more of the NAFI Master CFI's are coming up
through the ranks and are available, maybe in your area. Good luck, have
fun, be safe, Rick Basiliere, Colorado, Sukhoi-29, N55SU, Yak-55, N155AR
(Both are group I)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rick
Caldwell
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
You're right, Tracy, no much activity on this list. Sorry I can't help you;
I live in FL. I highly recommend you follow through with your plan. You
won't imagine the fun and confidence aerobatics adds to your abilities as a
pilot. I'm new to it (1 1/2 yrs) and still get the excitiment going just
thinking about going out flying aerobatics. Definetely takes the boredom out
of flying.
Rick Caldwell
RV-6
Melbourne, FL
>From: Tracy R Reed <treed(at)ultraviolet.org>
>Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:09:48 -0700
>
>
>I see zero traffic on this list so I'm not sure anyone will reply but here
>goes:
>
>Does anyone know of any aerobatic training available in San Diego? I'm
>about to finish up my instrument rating and I am going to want to take a
>break from all of the studying and learn some aerobatics before I dive
>into commercial and CFI.
>
>--
>Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
>Sorry, please try again. Thank you for taking the Turing test.
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>iEYEARECAAYFAjuZb9wACgkQ9PIYKZYVAq3m+ACeIZZz4039LpuG8RQDKQE81PdW
>/rcAn0NNyEzXOJTgwvueklDcmJXopP4A
>=Kv3j
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary A. Sobek" <rv6flier(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: San Diego aerobatic training? |
> >From: Tracy R Reed <treed(at)ultraviolet.org>
> >Reply-To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
> >To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
> >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:09:48 -0700
> >
>
> >
> >I see zero traffic on this list so I'm not sure anyone will reply
> but here goes:
> >
> >Does anyone know of any aerobatic training available in San Diego?
> I'm
> >about to finish up my instrument rating and I am going to want to
> take a
> >break from all of the studying and learn some aerobatics before I
> dive into commercial and CFI.
> >
> >--
> >Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
> >Sorry, please try again. Thank you for taking the Turing test.
>
Tracy:
I do not know how far you are willing to travel but there is an
Aerobatic club flying at Borrego Springs (cannot locate the link to the
web site) that may be able to help. If you are willing to go to
Redlands (L12) Dennis Brown gives instruction in a Pitts S-2A. His
number is (909) 797-7595 or email at pittsacro(at)aol.com Wait till after
Reno to call as he will be busy there.
There also is CP Aviation at Santa Paula.
EAA IAC has a list of schools at:
http://www.iac.org/howtobegin/schools.html
There is also info at:
http://www.iac.org/
http://acro.harvard.edu/IAC/iac_homepg.html
Good luck.
=====
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
935+ Flying Hours So. CA, USA
http://SoCAL_WVAF.tripod.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
Terry,
Look up "Sunrise Aviation"... a guy named Michael Church is awesome, he
has a tremendous base of knowledge/skills, he is a good instructor, and has
a wealth of important information. I met him at the Borrego Springs
Competition and training camp. He also attends all the other competitions
in this vicinity ('cuz I also saw him at Delano & Apple Valley). Get an
instructor, I've never had one (I enjoy the adrenaline that comes with
learning each maneuver) and everyone says "God you could be good if you got
a good plane and a good instructor.". I think that's a kind insult but
what the hell. Anyway... Good Luck with your aero training, I know you'll
have FUN.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy R Reed <treed(at)ultraviolet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 8:09 PM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
>
> I see zero traffic on this list so I'm not sure anyone will reply but here
> goes:
>
> Does anyone know of any aerobatic training available in San Diego? I'm
> about to finish up my instrument rating and I am going to want to take a
> break from all of the studying and learn some aerobatics before I dive
> into commercial and CFI.
>
> --
> Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
> Sorry, please try again. Thank you for taking the Turing test.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAjuZb9wACgkQ9PIYKZYVAq3m+ACeIZZz4039LpuG8RQDKQE81PdW
> /rcAn0NNyEzXOJTgwvueklDcmJXopP4A
> =Kv3j
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "T Miller" <safeharbor(at)kih.net> |
| Subject: | Re: San Diego aerobatic training? |
Tracy,
Try going to this site, http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs where there are
thousands of talk forum clubs. You can do a search in aviation or airplanes,
then look for aerobatics. If there isn't anything, you can create your own
site. It's easy and free. I did that for Citabria's, which is what I own,
and my site has not been up a month and is doing tremendous.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/citabriapilots
I too am in the beginning stages of aerobatics. So far, my instructor has me
doing spins on my own, a couple each time I fly, so I will be comfortable
doing them. He feels that is where you need to start, because a spin is
probably the worst situation you will encounter doing aerobatics, and taking
the fear factor out of that, will make everything else easier. Makes sense
to me! The first time I did them without my instructor took real guts!
Guess, I don't have the "right stuff". Good Luck, Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
because a spin is
probably the worst situation you will encounter doing aerobatics, and
taking
the fear factor out of that, will make everything else easier.
*A tail slide which yielded an inverted flat spin was the "worst situation"
I've yet to encounter. Solution at that point was to pull back, 'til nose
down (get airspeed so she would fly again) roll over & bleed off excess
airspeed; then change shorts to remove foam rubber that got sucked up by
"my" tail section.
Chuck
P.S.
Can we keep this list alittle more active? It seems to go only for short
spurts.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
So you want to keep the list a little more active? Sounds reasonable -- I'll
do my part, even though I'm a beginner.
The worst case to me sounds like a down line with excessive speed. Spins
I've been doing since I got my CFI in the 70's. Vne is more what I worry
about (although an inverted flat spin would be a bit much for me at this
point :) .
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
Rabaut
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 12:29 PM
Subject: Fw: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
because a spin is
probably the worst situation you will encounter doing aerobatics, and
taking
the fear factor out of that, will make everything else easier.
*A tail slide which yielded an inverted flat spin was the "worst situation"
I've yet to encounter. Solution at that point was to pull back, 'til nose
down (get airspeed so she would fly again) roll over & bleed off excess
airspeed; then change shorts to remove foam rubber that got sucked up by
"my" tail section.
Chuck
P.S.
Can we keep this list alittle more active? It seems to go only for short
spurts.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PLTDBEEZER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Hammerhead Techniques |
Anybody care to share some techniques on hammerheads as mine are a little
ugly so far.
Dave Beizer RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
Rick,
You are right... "a down line with excessive speed" would get the hair
on my neck standing up; especially if you were low with no altitude to try &
bleed off some speed. An old pilot once told me "If you ain't got airspeed
or altitude, then you better be sayin' ...Aw Chute!". I strongly recommend
a chute and plenty of altitude when trying anything new {training by a
qualified instructor would also be GOOD, or so I'm told}.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard McCraw <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 6:17 PM
Subject: RE: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
>
> So you want to keep the list a little more active? Sounds reasonable --
I'll
> do my part, even though I'm a beginner.
>
> The worst case to me sounds like a down line with excessive speed. Spins
> I've been doing since I got my CFI in the 70's. Vne is more what I worry
> about (although an inverted flat spin would be a bit much for me at this
> point :) .
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
> Rabaut
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 12:29 PM
> To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Fw: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
>
>
>
>
> because a spin is
> probably the worst situation you will encounter doing aerobatics, and
> taking
> the fear factor out of that, will make everything else easier.
>
>
> *A tail slide which yielded an inverted flat spin was the "worst
situation"
> I've yet to encounter. Solution at that point was to pull back, 'til nose
> down (get airspeed so she would fly again) roll over & bleed off excess
> airspeed; then change shorts to remove foam rubber that got sucked up by
> "my" tail section.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> P.S.
>
> Can we keep this list alittle more active? It seems to go only for short
> spurts.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | Hammerhead Techniques |
Dave,
I second that request. I tend to drive over the top because I fear
repeating my last tail slide (into inverted flat spin routine).
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: <PLTDBEEZER(at)aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 6:23 PM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Hammerhead Techniques
>
> Anybody care to share some techniques on hammerheads as mine are a little
> ugly so far.
>
> Dave Beizer RV6A
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
Sir; Shouldn't have experienced a flat inverted spin. It takes power off
to tailslide. It takes power on to make either an upright or inverted spin
go flat. Have fun, be safe. Rick B.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
Rabaut
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:29 AM
Subject: Fw: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
because a spin is
probably the worst situation you will encounter doing aerobatics, and
taking
the fear factor out of that, will make everything else easier.
*A tail slide which yielded an inverted flat spin was the "worst situation"
I've yet to encounter. Solution at that point was to pull back, 'til nose
down (get airspeed so she would fly again) roll over & bleed off excess
airspeed; then change shorts to remove foam rubber that got sucked up by
"my" tail section.
Chuck
P.S.
Can we keep this list alittle more active? It seems to go only for short
spurts.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
Rick; No big deal really. Just power off - rudder opposite spin - stick
back to neutral - recover from dive. Rick B.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard
McCraw
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
So you want to keep the list a little more active? Sounds reasonable -- I'll
do my part, even though I'm a beginner.
The worst case to me sounds like a down line with excessive speed. Spins
I've been doing since I got my CFI in the 70's. Vne is more what I worry
about (although an inverted flat spin would be a bit much for me at this
point :) .
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
Rabaut
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 12:29 PM
Subject: Fw: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
because a spin is
probably the worst situation you will encounter doing aerobatics, and
taking
the fear factor out of that, will make everything else easier.
*A tail slide which yielded an inverted flat spin was the "worst situation"
I've yet to encounter. Solution at that point was to pull back, 'til nose
down (get airspeed so she would fly again) roll over & bleed off excess
airspeed; then change shorts to remove foam rubber that got sucked up by
"my" tail section.
Chuck
P.S.
Can we keep this list alittle more active? It seems to go only for short
spurts.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Hammerhead Techniques |
Dave; Make sure you are vertical first. I'm not sure about RV-6, I'm a
Russian driver, SU-29, Yak-55. Keep going until you are almost stopped, you
still need some speed for rudder effectiveness. U.S. people kick left
rudder usually. Take a glance at airspeed so it can be adjusted up or down
with outcome. Look at your left wing relative to the horizon as you kick,
the nose (push or pull stick) should go through the same spot, ditto for the
right wing. If it was pretty you might have "flown over" a result of too
much speed. If it hangs up, doesn't rotate on or near vertical axis, too
slow. Right forward stick maybe needed after the kick to keep a/c from
torqueing or laying on back. In competition we're graded on how little we
"fly over" keeping it within a wing span gets us max points. Have fun, be
safe, pull power if it gets ugly. Rick B.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
PLTDBEEZER(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 5:24 PM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Hammerhead Techniques
Anybody care to share some techniques on hammerheads as mine are a little
ugly so far.
Dave Beizer RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hammerhead Techniques |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Regarding inverted spin recovery...
I've never done an inverted spin on purpose, so take this with the
appropriate amount of salt. But I did get into one once by accident. I
decided to "centralize, analyze" and wait. After a little more than one
rotation inverted, the airplane did a neat little half snap roll into an
upright spin, and I then recovered normally. However, this was a fairly
stable airplane. I don't think I'd count on a less stable airplane doing
that.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Magaw" <dmagaw(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hammerhead Techniques |
I have been taught and practiced spin recovery from inverted spin is same as
upright, except that stick is forward and it is brought back to break the
stall, pull from dive is same. In a decathlon the pull (or push if upright)
to break the stall does not take much movement--not even to center before
she's flying again. There are other good memory devices for spin recovery,
but the one I like is:
Idleize (throttle idle)
Neutralize (center ailerons)
Kick (rudder in direction oposite spin--or the hard rudder if don't know
what direction spinning)
Push (stick forward to break stall--or pull if in inverted mode)
Pull (out of the dive)
Obviously you need to see the proper response from the plane in some steps
before the next is taken, and Kick and Push can be done simultaneously or
sequentially both with good results in the Decathlon
My $.02
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Hammerhead Techniques
>
> Regarding inverted spin recovery...
>
> I've never done an inverted spin on purpose, so take this with the
> appropriate amount of salt. But I did get into one once by accident. I
> decided to "centralize, analyze" and wait. After a little more than one
> rotation inverted, the airplane did a neat little half snap roll into an
> upright spin, and I then recovered normally. However, this was a fairly
> stable airplane. I don't think I'd count on a less stable airplane doing
> that.
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Rabaut" <crabaut(at)coalinga.com> |
| Subject: | San Diego aerobatic training? |
It was in a Harmon Rocket (not one of the II's), owner in the back seat, she
climbed to the top, power was reduced, she fell off towards the left side
but on to her back, flopped, flat spinned, or kind of "Maple Leafed" in an
inverted position {for a second}; which is when I pulled back on the stick
to get her nose pointed back towards terra firma. No added throttle (power
on).
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Basiliere <discrab(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
>
> Sir; Shouldn't have experienced a flat inverted spin. It takes power off
> to tailslide. It takes power on to make either an upright or inverted
spin
> go flat. Have fun, be safe. Rick B.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
> Rabaut
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:29 AM
> To: aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Fw: Aerobatic-List: San Diego aerobatic training?
>
>
>
>
> because a spin is
> probably the worst situation you will encounter doing aerobatics, and
> taking
> the fear factor out of that, will make everything else easier.
>
>
> *A tail slide which yielded an inverted flat spin was the "worst
situation"
> I've yet to encounter. Solution at that point was to pull back, 'til nose
> down (get airspeed so she would fly again) roll over & bleed off excess
> airspeed; then change shorts to remove foam rubber that got sucked up by
> "my" tail section.
>
> Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Hammerhead Techniques |
At 09:13 PM 9/8/2001, you wrote:
>
>Dave; Make sure you are vertical first. I'm not sure about RV-6, I'm a
>Russian driver, SU-29, Yak-55. Keep going until you are almost stopped, you
>still need some speed for rudder effectiveness.
Yeah, rudder size and effectiveness makes a difference here.
>U.S. people kick left
>rudder usually.
Depends on engine rotation. My CJ6A has counter-clockwise engine rotation
so it does rolling/yawing stuff better to the right.
>Take a glance at airspeed so it can be adjusted up or down
>with outcome. Look at your left wing relative to the horizon as you kick,
>the nose (push or pull stick) should go through the same spot, ditto for the
>right wing. If it was pretty you might have "flown over" a result of too
>much speed. If it hangs up, doesn't rotate on or near vertical axis, too
>slow. Right forward stick maybe needed after the kick to keep a/c from
>torqueing or laying on back. In competition we're graded on how little we
>"fly over" keeping it within a wing span gets us max points. Have fun, be
>safe, pull power if it gets ugly. Rick B.
My CJ6A does not have enough rudder effectiveness to just rotate about the
airframe vertical axis at zero airspeed with just propwash over the
tail. I have to fly it over. There just isn't enough rudder to do one to
the left, only the right. Opposite aileron to rudder and forward stick is
needed.
My second try I got too slow and ended up with a classical tail slide. The
nose swung slightly to the right and stayed there. It wasn't going to go
over and ASI had been on zero for a bit. I closed the throttle, held the
stick back, and it pitched over forward as it is supposed to. Amazing how
this stuff works.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SargentWayne(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 09/08/01 |
I'm new on the site, but love the "straight up, straight down, hair on fire"
type of flying. Currently in a Hiperbipe. The best thing I did was take a
spin course. This was about 15 years ago in a Super Decathlon, we did every
type of spin you can imagine, upright, inverted, flat upright, flat
inverted,( which is very hard to get into, fly inverted push up to stall,
keep stick full forward, add power and in-spin aileron) the recovery to all
of them (in a Decathlon) is the same; power to idle, let go of the stick,
opposite rudder, pullout of the dive. The knowledge that I can recover from
any spin, and that a blown maneuver will probably result in a spin, has given
me confidence to try lots of new things; vertical rolls, tail slides, push up
to hammerheads, outside loops, etc.
On hammerheads, I look for about 30-40 MPH when I push left rudder, power is
full on, and I have to give quite a bit of forward stick and right aileron to
keep from falling over on my back, than wait for the rotation to straight
down, draw a nice vertical, then pull out level, ready for the next figure.
Hope you find a mentor
Wayne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Meier, George" <George.Meier(at)goodrich.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Aerobatic Instruction |
Are there any acrobatics Instructors in the West Michigan area?
George Meier
RV6A - wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/09/01 |
> From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw(at)att.net>
> Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Hammerhead Techniques
>
>
> I have been taught and practiced spin recovery from inverted spin is same
as
> upright, except that stick is forward and it is brought back to break the
> stall, pull from dive is same. In a decathlon the pull (or push if
upright)
> to break the stall does not take much movement--not even to center before
> she's flying again. There are other good memory devices for spin
recovery,
> but the one I like is:
> Idleize (throttle idle)
> Neutralize (center ailerons)
> Kick (rudder in direction oposite spin--or the hard rudder if don't know
> what direction spinning)
> Push (stick forward to break stall--or pull if in inverted mode)
> Pull (out of the dive)
> Obviously you need to see the proper response from the plane in some steps
> before the next is taken, and Kick and Push can be done simultaneously or
> sequentially both with good results in the Decathlon
>
> My $.02
> Dave
Dave et al,
Self-taught spin recovery (like self-taught aerobatics) can be a very
hazardous undertaking, particularly if you're talking about inverted and
flat spins. Like self-representation in legal proceedings, when you try
teaching yourself dangerous things you have a fool for a client.
I just finished reading Patty Wagstaff's excellent biography ("Fire and
Air") and was struck by the fact that all through her career she has sought
continuous training and coaching. That tells a wonker like me to do the
same. At the very least I recommend close study of Gene Beggs' book "Spins
in the Pitts Specials", noting that although the Beggs-Mueller technique
(power off, let go of the stick, full opposite rudder etc.) may not always
work, it's probably the best place to start if youy find yourself in the
test pilot mode. It's interesting that Bob Hoover says (in his book
"Forever Flying") that he has used all kinds of recovery techniques in
different airplanes, like the P-38 (including flat spin recoveries), using
asymetric power, power off, stick foward with full power etc., none of which
are recommended by Beggs. I guess the bottom line is that recovery
techniques for various gyroscopic maneuvers are, at the least,
controversial. Best bet is to take advanced spin recovery instruction from
an experienced aerobatic instructor in an airplane with demonstrated
effective recovery techniques. Even then, if you fly a different type than
what you train in, you may find yourself doing flight test for lousy pay.
Start with lots of altitude and don't forget the leg straps on your
parachute.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
Factory Authorized NEW Yak-52 dealer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Covington" <jc(at)relian.com> |
Speaking of legs straps on the chutes..
I haven't done any aerobatics yet, but I plan to do some (mild) aerobatics
in my kitplane when it's done. Does anyone have any thoughts on individual
chutes vs. whole-plane chutes? I imagine some of the biplanes out there are
hard to egress from in unusual attitudes.
Have anyone used the whole-plane chute to get an exemption from the
individual chute requirement of the FARs?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Basiliere" <discrab(at)earthlink.net> |
Sir; 91.307 (c)"other than crewmwember" has been interpreted as meaning
parachutes are required by all except the pilot when solo. So if you akro
alone it would be your decision as to wear a 'chute or not. Don't shoot the
messenger, please. I always wear mine even if on x-c to a contest. Rick B.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim
Covington
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 1:31 PM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: RE: parachutes
Speaking of legs straps on the chutes..
I haven't done any aerobatics yet, but I plan to do some (mild) aerobatics
in my kitplane when it's done. Does anyone have any thoughts on individual
chutes vs. whole-plane chutes? I imagine some of the biplanes out there are
hard to egress from in unusual attitudes.
Have anyone used the whole-plane chute to get an exemption from the
individual chute requirement of the FARs?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Coonan" <gcoonan(at)home.com> |
I have a ballistic chute on my ultralight and here is the beauty of it,
it can deploy at 150'. BRS makes a 1500lb. chute that will work on
RV's, however the gross on Rv's at least on my -7 is 1800lb. BRS is
developing a 1800lb and should be ready next year. I plan on putting
one in my plane. I do not have a lot of piloting experience yet, but I
do know human behavior and how long it takes for us to react in an
emergency, plus who knows what type of attitude you may find your self
in when things are not looking to good.
I am currently taking acrobatic lessons and on some of the maneuvers,
there is no way you are getting out without an ejection seat. With the
rocket engine attached to the chute, once you pull the chord, that baby
is deployed and is going to slow you down. I have personally deployed
one and it is very impressive on how quickly it starts catching air.
Anyway, you are probably familiar with these chutes, for me they are the
safest device you can do. As for the FAR, I have not been able to find
anything that states that the plane chute is acceptable.
Gary Coonan
Rockvale, TN
RV-7 Wing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Covington
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 2:31 PM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: RE: parachutes
Speaking of legs straps on the chutes..
I haven't done any aerobatics yet, but I plan to do some (mild)
aerobatics
in my kitplane when it's done. Does anyone have any thoughts on
individual
chutes vs. whole-plane chutes? I imagine some of the biplanes out there
are
hard to egress from in unusual attitudes.
Have anyone used the whole-plane chute to get an exemption from the
individual chute requirement of the FARs?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Covington" <jc(at)relian.com> |
My understanding is also that the FARs would not allow the BRS as a
replacement for personal chutes. In reality, however, there are many kits
out there where egress from the passenger seat is difficult on the ground; I
can't imagine doing it in the air while going through the gyrations that
will probably precede a deployment.
So here are two rephrased questions:
Does anyone think that a local FSDO might grant an exemption from 91.307 (c)
if the plane is BRS (or equiv.) equipped?
If it were your hide on the line, would you rather have a personal chute or
a BRS?
I have never been under either type of canopy.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Coonan
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 01:08 AM
Subject: RE: Aerobatic-List: RE: parachutes
I have a ballistic chute on my ultralight and here is the beauty of it,
it can deploy at 150'. BRS makes a 1500lb. chute that will work on
RV's, however the gross on Rv's at least on my -7 is 1800lb. BRS is
developing a 1800lb and should be ready next year. I plan on putting
one in my plane. I do not have a lot of piloting experience yet, but I
do know human behavior and how long it takes for us to react in an
emergency, plus who knows what type of attitude you may find your self
in when things are not looking to good.
I am currently taking acrobatic lessons and on some of the maneuvers,
there is no way you are getting out without an ejection seat. With the
rocket engine attached to the chute, once you pull the chord, that baby
is deployed and is going to slow you down. I have personally deployed
one and it is very impressive on how quickly it starts catching air.
Anyway, you are probably familiar with these chutes, for me they are the
safest device you can do. As for the FAR, I have not been able to find
anything that states that the plane chute is acceptable.
Gary Coonan
Rockvale, TN
RV-7 Wing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Covington
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 2:31 PM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: RE: parachutes
Speaking of legs straps on the chutes..
I haven't done any aerobatics yet, but I plan to do some (mild)
aerobatics
in my kitplane when it's done. Does anyone have any thoughts on
individual
chutes vs. whole-plane chutes? I imagine some of the biplanes out there
are
hard to egress from in unusual attitudes.
Have anyone used the whole-plane chute to get an exemption from the
individual chute requirement of the FARs?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 10:08 PM 9/10/2001, you wrote:
>
>I have a ballistic chute on my ultralight and here is the beauty of it,
>it can deploy at 150'.
If you depart the aircraft in horizontal flight you can safely deploy a
normal parachute (on your body) as low as 150' also. The 'chute needs 3
seconds to open and 150' is how far you will fall in 3 seconds if you start
with zero vertical velocity. So it depends on how fast and in which
direction you are moving when you get out. I calculated how low I could be
if I departed my CJ6A going 250 kts straight down and came up with
1500'. So it depends on your vertical direction when you get out.
>I plan on putting
>one in my plane. I do not have a lot of piloting experience yet, but I
>do know human behavior and how long it takes for us to react in an
>emergency, plus who knows what type of attitude you may find your self
>in when things are not looking to good.
This is why you should practice egress procedures from your
airplane. There is no time to think about what you are going to do once
the problem occurs, you have to react from your training. And this goes
for just pulling the handle for the BRS too.
>I am currently taking acrobatic lessons and on some of the maneuvers,
>there is no way you are getting out without an ejection seat.
Not true. Why do you think the FAA sets a hard deck of 1500'?
>With the
>rocket engine attached to the chute, once you pull the chord, that baby
>is deployed and is going to slow you down.
It has the same problems as the personal 'chute. It takes time to deploy
and it depends on your velocity in the vertical plane as to whether it will
deploy in time. Also it is much larger and requires more room to swing
down if deployed horizontally.
The BRS is no panacea. Its real saving grace is that it will be there all
the time even if you aren't wearing a parachute.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 06:03 AM 9/11/2001, you wrote:
>Does anyone think that a local FSDO might grant an exemption from 91.307 (c)
>if the plane is BRS (or equiv.) equipped?
Probably not. They would have to stick their necks out to do that and
bureaucrats are notoriously fond of their necks.
>If it were your hide on the line, would you rather have a personal chute or
>a BRS?
It depends on the aircraft. My CJ6A is a low-wing, tandem trainer with
sliding canopies. I practice egress and it takes me about 2 seconds to get
out. I am not sure that a BRS would be any faster and a personal 'chute
can get me away from an aircraft that is on fire whereas a BRS won't help a
whit in that case.
Also, I have parachutes already for my CJ6A and it requires no modification
of the aircraft. I also wore a seat-pack 'chute in my RV-4. The RV-4
canopy is designed to depart the aircraft in flight if the canopy is
released allowing the pilot and passenger to get out very easily.
The thought of trying to get out of a Citabria/Decathalon scares me. This
is an airplane where egress planning strikes me as being really, really
important.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: parachutes |
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org> |
Brian:
>
> I calculated how low I could be
> if I departed my CJ6A going 250 kts straight down and came up with
> 1500'. So it depends on your vertical direction when you get out.
Thanks for sharing that. You mentioned that the chute needs three seconds
to open, and you are going down at 250 kt, or 422 ft/s, so that's about 1300
feet. Is that, plus a little safety margin, how you came up with 1500 AGL?
In the Canadian air force (and I expect it works the same in the USAF and
Navy), if you are below 10,000 AGL and don't have control of the aircraft
you eject. That's for a jet, where the vertical speed could be much greater
than 250 kt (but the time-to-silk is a little less). Have you set a number
like that for yourself?
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
---
P.S. My heart goes out to anyone who has been personally affected by
today's apparent terrorist attacks. I consider myself a friend of the
United States. As a Canadian, I support my country standing with you in
this tragic time.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: parachutes |
At 12:59 PM 9/11/2001, you wrote:
>
>Brian:
>
> >
> > I calculated how low I could be
> > if I departed my CJ6A going 250 kts straight down and came up with
> > 1500'. So it depends on your vertical direction when you get out.
>
>Thanks for sharing that. You mentioned that the chute needs three seconds
>to open, and you are going down at 250 kt, or 422 ft/s, so that's about 1300
>feet. Is that, plus a little safety margin, how you came up with 1500 AGL?
You immediately begin to decelerate since terminal velocity for a falling
human is about 120 mph (176 fps). I figured out how long it would take to
decelerate to the max opening speed for the 'chute, usually on the order of
160 kts. At that point velocity is constant and you add the 3 seconds so
you fall only 500 more feet.
BTW, I tried to solve it as a differential equation but it was too complex
(looked like 2nd order) so I solved it numerically. We were arguing about
the value of Butler's open-at-any-speed "sombrero slider" canopy control
system and I wanted to see if it made that much difference.
>In the Canadian air force (and I expect it works the same in the USAF and
>Navy), if you are below 10,000 AGL and don't have control of the aircraft
>you eject. That's for a jet, where the vertical speed could be much greater
>than 250 kt (but the time-to-silk is a little less). Have you set a number
>like that for yourself?
No. I just stay above 1500' AGL in my acro, usually up around 2500' in fact.
>P.S. My heart goes out to anyone who has been personally affected by
>today's apparent terrorist attacks. I consider myself a friend of the
>United States. As a Canadian, I support my country standing with you in
>this tragic time.
And as a Citizen of the United States of America, I thank you.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Coonan" <gcoonan(at)home.com> |
How about both.
Gary Coonan
Rockvale, TN
RV-7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Covington
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:04 AM
Subject: RE: Aerobatic-List: RE: parachutes
My understanding is also that the FARs would not allow the BRS as a
replacement for personal chutes. In reality, however, there are many
kits
out there where egress from the passenger seat is difficult on the
ground; I
can't imagine doing it in the air while going through the gyrations that
will probably precede a deployment.
So here are two rephrased questions:
Does anyone think that a local FSDO might grant an exemption from 91.307
(c)
if the plane is BRS (or equiv.) equipped?
If it were your hide on the line, would you rather have a personal chute
or
a BRS?
I have never been under either type of canopy.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Coonan
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 01:08 AM
Subject: RE: Aerobatic-List: RE: parachutes
I have a ballistic chute on my ultralight and here is the beauty of it,
it can deploy at 150'. BRS makes a 1500lb. chute that will work on
RV's, however the gross on Rv's at least on my -7 is 1800lb. BRS is
developing a 1800lb and should be ready next year. I plan on putting
one in my plane. I do not have a lot of piloting experience yet, but I
do know human behavior and how long it takes for us to react in an
emergency, plus who knows what type of attitude you may find your self
in when things are not looking to good.
I am currently taking acrobatic lessons and on some of the maneuvers,
there is no way you are getting out without an ejection seat. With the
rocket engine attached to the chute, once you pull the chord, that baby
is deployed and is going to slow you down. I have personally deployed
one and it is very impressive on how quickly it starts catching air.
Anyway, you are probably familiar with these chutes, for me they are the
safest device you can do. As for the FAR, I have not been able to find
anything that states that the plane chute is acceptable.
Gary Coonan
Rockvale, TN
RV-7 Wing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Covington
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 2:31 PM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: RE: parachutes
Speaking of legs straps on the chutes..
I haven't done any aerobatics yet, but I plan to do some (mild)
aerobatics
in my kitplane when it's done. Does anyone have any thoughts on
individual
chutes vs. whole-plane chutes? I imagine some of the biplanes out there
are
hard to egress from in unusual attitudes.
Have anyone used the whole-plane chute to get an exemption from the
individual chute requirement of the FARs?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Coonan" <gcoonan(at)home.com> |
You are right, the BRS is no panacea, it's just another safety device
that offers a few unique features. The rocket deployment does allow the
canopy to open in about half the time of personal chutes. FYI, the FAA
certified new Cirrus SR20, has a BRS as standard issue.
Actually, I am most concerned about structural or control failure at low
altitude, and I believe that the BRS is a good safety device.
Be competent and practice everything and hopefully you will never need
these devices.
Gary Coonan
Rockvale, TN
RV-7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aerobatic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Lloyd
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Aerobatic-List: RE: parachutes
At 10:08 PM 9/10/2001, you wrote:
>
>I have a ballistic chute on my ultralight and here is the beauty of it,
>it can deploy at 150'.
If you depart the aircraft in horizontal flight you can safely deploy a
normal parachute (on your body) as low as 150' also. The 'chute needs 3
seconds to open and 150' is how far you will fall in 3 seconds if you
start
with zero vertical velocity. So it depends on how fast and in which
direction you are moving when you get out. I calculated how low I could
be
if I departed my CJ6A going 250 kts straight down and came up with
1500'. So it depends on your vertical direction when you get out.
>I plan on putting
>one in my plane. I do not have a lot of piloting experience yet, but I
>do know human behavior and how long it takes for us to react in an
>emergency, plus who knows what type of attitude you may find your self
>in when things are not looking to good.
This is why you should practice egress procedures from your
airplane. There is no time to think about what you are going to do once
the problem occurs, you have to react from your training. And this goes
for just pulling the handle for the BRS too.
>I am currently taking acrobatic lessons and on some of the maneuvers,
>there is no way you are getting out without an ejection seat.
Not true. Why do you think the FAA sets a hard deck of 1500'?
>With the
>rocket engine attached to the chute, once you pull the chord, that baby
>is deployed and is going to slow you down.
It has the same problems as the personal 'chute. It takes time to
deploy
and it depends on your velocity in the vertical plane as to whether it
will
deploy in time. Also it is much larger and requires more room to swing
down if deployed horizontally.
The BRS is no panacea. Its real saving grace is that it will be there
all
the time even if you aren't wearing a parachute.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Farley <david.farley2(at)aspentech.com> |
Brian Lloyd said:
>>If it were your hide on the line, would you rather have a
>personal chute or
>>a BRS?
>
>It depends on the aircraft. My CJ6A is a low-wing, tandem
>trainer with
>sliding canopies. I practice egress and it takes me about 2
>seconds to get
>out. I am not sure that a BRS would be any faster and a
>personal 'chute
>can get me away from an aircraft that is on fire whereas a BRS
>won't help a whit in that case.
I learnt to fly gliders first in the UK. There most glider pilots wear
chutes whenever they fly.
Some years ago now the UK magazine "Sailplane & Glider" published some stats
on the success of the use of chutes in real emergencies. They found that
over the period they looked at (something like twenty years as I remember
the article) only about 40% of attempted exits in flight were successful!!!
The problems were thought to be often leaving it too late, but a significant
proportion of fatalities following exit from the aircraft were as a result
of hitting some part the aircraft on the way out - usually the tail!
This hasn't put me off jumping if I felt the situation warranted it, but it
has made me think carefully about how I would exit a particular aircraft if
the worst should happen.
Dave Farley
(Yak 52 N151PA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: parachutes |
| From: | "Tedd McHenry" <tedd(at)telus.net> |
>Some years ago now the UK magazine "Sailplane & Glider" published some stats
>on the success of the use of chutes in real emergencies. They found that
>over the period they looked at (something like twenty years as I remember
>the article) only about 40% of attempted exits in flight were successful!!!
For what it's worth, I don't think the stats for ejection seats are vastly
better. The stats I have seen are about 25 percent no significant injury,
50 percent successful with significant injury, and 25 percent fatal. That
also roughly matches the handful that I have personal knowledge about. I
believe those are peace-time stats. They may be getting better with
improved ejection seat technology.
Getting out of a plane in flight is pretty hazardous (unless you're doing it
for sport).
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 08:38 AM 9/12/2001, you wrote:
>The problems were thought to be often leaving it too late, but a significant
>proportion of fatalities following exit from the aircraft were as a result
>of hitting some part the aircraft on the way out - usually the tail!
>
>This hasn't put me off jumping if I felt the situation warranted it, but it
>has made me think carefully about how I would exit a particular aircraft if
>the worst should happen.
Hence the need to practice egress.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com> |
Practice egress? Sounds reasonable, but when practicing, how do you know
that your chosen route will actually clear the empennage while in flight,
and maybe in an odd flight regime to boot? What are the basic principles of
bailing out? Is the approach the same when straight and level as when in a
spin, for instance?
Rick McCraw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> |
At 06:14 PM 9/12/2001, you wrote:
>
>Practice egress? Sounds reasonable, but when practicing, how do you know
>that your chosen route will actually clear the empennage while in flight,
>and maybe in an odd flight regime to boot? What are the basic principles of
>bailing out? Is the approach the same when straight and level as when in a
>spin, for instance?
First, you need to open/jettison the canopy/door or whatever stands between
you and the outside world. Release your harness *after* the door is
open. If you don't and the aircraft is gyrating, you might be forced into
a position from which you cannot get the door/canopy open.
If the aircraft is gyrating, perhaps from structural failure which renders
the aircraft uncontrollable, you will have no control over your actual
egress. If it is gyrating, the door/canopy is open, and you release your
harness, odds are you will find yourself separate from the aircraft without
you having to do anything. If you find you are still in the airplane, do
whatever it takes to get out and don't worry about "the best way."
If the airplane is controllable, get out the way the aircraft manufacturer
recommends. In the case of my CJ6A, I have the benefit of the procedures
developed by the Chinese Air Force after 40 years of experience with the
aircraft. They say to go try to go head-first over the left side cockpit
rail. That is supposed to keep my head from striking the horizontal
stab. I also think that trimming the aircraft full nose down, rolling
inverted, and kicking the stick forward is also likely to get me away from
the aircraft pretty quickly. Remember that you will be going the same
speed as the aircraft and aren't going to be snatched to a stop only to be
struck by a stabilizer going full speed.
I strongly recommend that if anyone here has the opportunity, go to the
emergency bail-out seminar put on by Alan Silver of Silver Parachute Sales,
Hayward, CA. I have attended Alan's seminar twice, once at a FAST
formation clinic and once at Oshkosh, and can recommend his seminar very
highly. Alan is a master parachute rigger and skydiver. A fair number of
his clients now belong to the Caterpillar Club and live to tell about
it. Some of the stories are truly hair-raising but it points out that, if
you really try, you can get out and survive. Even going by the statistics
given here earlier, a 75% chance of living, even if badly hurt, sure beats
the snot out a 100% chance of dying.
Brian Lloyd
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.530.676.1113 - voice
+1.360.838.9669 - fax
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Magaw" <dmagaw(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/09/01 |
You didn't read my post very carefully, I never said I was self taught, and
in fact have not been. I also only practice what I have been taught (by a
competent instructor) and then only when he has told me that I am capable of
doing so.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:13 AM
Subject: Aerobatic-List: Re: Aerobatic-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/09/01
>
> > From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw(at)att.net>
> > Subject: Re: Aerobatic-List: Hammerhead Techniques
> >
> >
> > I have been taught and practiced spin recovery from inverted spin is
same
> as
> > upright, except that stick is forward and it is brought back to break
the
> > stall, pull from dive is same. In a decathlon the pull (or push if
> upright)
> > to break the stall does not take much movement--not even to center
before
> > she's flying again. There are other good memory devices for spin
> recovery,
> > but the one I like is:
> > Idleize (throttle idle)
> > Neutralize (center ailerons)
> > Kick (rudder in direction oposite spin--or the hard rudder if don't
know
> > what direction spinning)
> > Push (stick forward to break stall--or pull if in inverted mode)
> > Pull (out of the dive)
> > Obviously you need to see the proper response from the plane in some
steps
> > before the next is taken, and Kick and Push can be done simultaneously
or
> > sequentially both with good results in the Decathlon
> >
> > My $.02
> > Dave
>
> Dave et al,
>
> Self-taught spin recovery (like self-taught aerobatics) can be a very
> hazardous undertaking, particularly if you're talking about inverted and
> flat spins. Like self-representation in legal proceedings, when you try
> teaching yourself dangerous things you have a fool for a client.
>
> I just finished reading Patty Wagstaff's excellent biography ("Fire and
> Air") and was struck by the fact that all through her career she has
sought
> continuous training and coaching. That tells a wonker like me to do the
> same. At the very least I recommend close study of Gene Beggs' book
"Spins
> in the Pitts Specials", noting that although the Beggs-Mueller technique
> (power off, let go of the stick, full opposite rudder etc.) may not always
> work, it's probably the best place to start if youy find yourself in the
> test pilot mode. It's interesting that Bob Hoover says (in his book
> "Forever Flying") that he has used all kinds of recovery techniques in
> different airplanes, like the P-38 (including flat spin recoveries), using
> asymetric power, power off, stick foward with full power etc., none of
which
> are recommended by Beggs. I guess the bottom line is that recovery
> techniques for various gyroscopic maneuvers are, at the least,
> controversial. Best bet is to take advanced spin recovery instruction
from
> an experienced aerobatic instructor in an airplane with demonstrated
> effective recovery techniques. Even then, if you fly a different type
than
> what you train in, you may find yourself doing flight test for lousy pay.
> Start with lots of altitude and don't forget the leg straps on your
> parachute.
>
> Jerry Painter
> Wild Blue Aviation
> Factory Authorized NEW Yak-52 dealer
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ClearProp1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | God Bless America Apparel |
rocket-list(at)matronics.com, kolb-list(at)matronics.com,
zenith-list(at)matronics.com, yak-list(at)matronics.com, ez-list(at)matronics.com,
lancair-list(at)matronics.com, cessna-list(at)matronics.com,
beech-list(at)matronics.com, cadet-list(at)matronics.com,
avionics-list(at)matronics.com, aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com,
pitts-list(at)matronics.com, homebuilt-list(at)matronics.com
As many of you know, the American Flags have sold out very quickly in most
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proudly on your shirt or hat, we have them in stock and ready to send out.
The design is a waving flag with God Bless America proudly stated across the
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A portion of every sale will go towards helping the families of this
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Scott Brown
Six-Shooters Embroidery, Inc.
phone: 561-748-2420 Fax: 561-748-6980
Visit us at www.six-shooters.com
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-listAmatronics.com(at)matronics.com, rocket-list@matronics,
kolb-list(at)matronics.com, zenith-list(at)matroncis.com, yak-list(at)matronics.com,
ez-list(at)matronics.com, lancair-list(at)matronics.com,
cessna-list(at)matronics.com, beech-list(at)matronics.com,
cadet-list(at)matronics.com, avionics-list(at)matronics.com,
aerobatic-list(at)matronics.com, pitts-list(at)matronics.com,
homebuilt-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | Doc Mosher <docshop(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | God Bless America Apparel |
Scott Brown dba Six-Shooters Embroidery, Inc - Jupiter, Florida
Your recent scattershot spamming of the entire Matronics airplane type
listing is not a nice thing to do. The Pietenpol list, for example, is for
messages among Pietenpol people. Matt's rules of protocol for list use
specifically state that the list is not for commercial sales use.
If you want to capitalize on the sudden surge of "show the flag" sentiment
by selling dry goods, that is your decision. But please do not clutter up
all of the Matronics airplane lists with your spam of advertising. That
was not a nice thing to do.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <dlleedom(at)rockwellcollins.com> |
| Subject: | Airplane suggestions |
5.0.6 |December 14, 2000) at 09/19/2001 08:42:01 AM
I was wondering what the list thought would be a good aerobatic plane for 2
people. I would probably prefer to build than buy but anything is OK. Of
course I have the unsolvable requirement that it can't be overly expensive
(which is a relative term that I'll let each poster define themselves,
since I don't know what it is yet) and I need to be able to do acro with
two people in it. There are a lot of nice, relatively cheap, two-place
kits (Sonex, Sonerai, S-10 Sakota, etc) that will do sportsman aerobatics
with only one person in the plane but it looks like all of the ones that
can do it with two are considerably more expensive. Thanks for the help.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Aronson <aronsond(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane suggestions |
I am in the late stages of finishing my RV-4. I acquired a Citabria 7eca/150
hp about 6 months ago to build tail wheel time. What a mistake!!!! I haven't
looked at the RV-4 project in months. A very inexpensive aircraft to own and
opperate, the 7eca with 150hp conversion is a fairly good performer too. Able
to do general accrobatics, 120mph cruise and just a lot of fun to fly. You
should consider one of these!!!
DCA
dlleedom(at)rockwellcollins.com wrote:
>
> I was wondering what the list thought would be a good aerobatic plane for 2
> people. I would probably prefer to build than buy but anything is OK. Of
> course I have the unsolvable requirement that it can't be overly expensive
> (which is a relative term that I'll let each poster define themselves,
> since I don't know what it is yet) and I need to be able to do acro with
> two people in it. There are a lot of nice, relatively cheap, two-place
> kits (Sonex, Sonerai, S-10 Sakota, etc) that will do sportsman aerobatics
> with only one person in the plane but it looks like all of the ones that
> can do it with two are considerably more expensive. Thanks for the help.
>
>
August 22, 1999 - September 19, 2001
Aerobatic-Archive.digest.vol-aa