Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ae
September 12, 2001 - September 20, 2001
in commission rate)!
Bush is trying to turn this mess around, however it will take time.
Training must be scheduled, parts contracted for, etc. This will not happen
in a day!
Also, as one of the other folks said in their signal, we must get our
intelligence back on track. The CIA is a solid organization but the muzzle
must be taken off.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Nico van Niekerk [mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:19 PM
To: PhilHackett(at)aol.com; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: shit
Phil,
Thanks for your concerns. The US has its faults and in the aftermath every
match-stick will be picked up, that I assure you. However, I am inclined to
think that Clinton and his liberal policies have set us up to a large extent
by his lackluster dealings with fanatics, who believe that the West should
be destroyed - period. His negotiations in the Israel - Palestinian
so-called peace process was a farce because he was interested in building a
legacy only. This we know because of the pressure that was brought to bear
on the Israelis to sacrifice so much territory and even after complying
mostly with the demands of the Palestinians, Yssar Arafat declined and made
further, unrealistic demands, basically trashing the process - proving that
they never intended to agree on peace with Israel.
This attack was very well planned. Think about it: visitors with valid
visas enter the US. Apparently they did not have firearms or explosives -
but that is not important now - they could have boarded the planes with only
a plastic container of poisonous gas, or disassembled knives, checked in as
first class passengers so that they would be located directly behind the
cockpit, and just unexpectedly got up and overpowered the crew. Two people
could walk the few steps in a matter of seconds, slit the throats of the
pilot and co-pilot, get behind the yoke and - bang.
There are only two ways to defend oneself against this very professional
type of attack and that is, first, human intelligence: knowing what your
adversaries are up to, and second, retaliate so hard that no one would ever
in human memory try to do this again.
I believe the US should throw the UN out of New York. Further we should
flatten the capitols of Afghanistan, Algiers and other countries that
threatened us before, but at night when the least amount of civilian life
would be lost - giving them a chance that they did not give 50,000 US
citizens.
So, although there are faults in the system, and they failed us today, it
does not mean that we should not bite back, and bite very, very hard.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
To: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: shit
Dear All,
For what it is worth, it is being said here in the UK that;
Clinton arranged a commission under Gore to examine airline security. It
was
found to be extremely poor. International flight security was brought up
to
European standards, but, the airlines did not want to ramp up Domestic
security because, they said it would slow down the turn round of
aircraft.
They put the $ first. It is SIGNIFICANT that all these flights today
were
internal! Experts here are saying that this was just an obvious
terrorist
opportunity.
Clinton always kept involved with the Far East, and kept the lid on the
situation. BUSH turned his back on the problem when elected. Now it has
come
to him. Bush has an insular attitude to the world. It appears to us,
that
anything outside America does not exist for the average domestic
citizen, or
Bush. Most Americans do not realise that the USA Army is poorly trained,
and
when deployed in the Balkans recently, was put so far from danger, that
most
troops are even in different countries, from where the trouble is.
If Politicians and Americans per se, keep pretending that American is
Best,
when patently it isn't, someone somewhere will take advantage of you, as
happened today. You and we also, have allowed immigrants into our
countries,
who are intending to destroy us. The infrastructure exists for this to
happen
again, and again within both our countries. The people who struck today,
learned from the aborted attempt to bomb the World Trade Centre eight
years
ago. The NY authorities did not. That is why so many emergency vehicles
were
crushed by debris. They were too close. It took three hours to evacuate
the
WT Centre eight years age. Nothing was done to improve on that, and as a
result people died today. Your airline security people are so poorly
trained,
and paid,that Mcdonalds Burgher staff earn more. It is estimated that up
to
20% of explosives, in tests, get past USA security staff. USA
vulnerability
is well known!
We must all pray for those who perished today, and also those who suffer
grief.
Our lives will never be carefree again. The free, and safe world is a
diminishing place.
War has been declared on all of us, not just USA citizens, and Bush
needs to
grasp that the world is bigger than America. We are your greatest and
most
loyal allies.
I hope Bush learns that from someone soon. I do not feel confident in
him at
all.
God Bless All Of You.
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Terrorism today |
AMEN!
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;RnJThompson(at)aol.com
Sent: 9/12/01 1:15:51 AM
Subject: Terrorism today
Thanks Richard & Jacqui.
I was there when the communist ANC leader Nelson Mandela ordered the bombing
of the Nedbank building in Pretoria killing many innocent people.
The world then said it was in the interest of freedom and condoned it.
I have many times flown at my own expense my Aero Commander into Mozambique filled
with food and provisions after we were let back in after many years of communist
rule and plunder. The country was in ruins.
The world said it was in the interest of freedom and condoned it.
In the '50s when the Belgic Congo received independence and thousands of people
fled the horror of indiscriminate killing, the world said it was in the interest
of freedom and condoned it.
When the WTC was first bombed in '93, a 'feel good' policy caused millions of
dollars to be spent on a trial that accomplished what? It made us feel good that
the world will learn that we are a just people, a civilized nation. That,
when we were not the ones who needed the education. When you preach to the choir,
you can be sure of a captive audience. But try to get those who believe that
you are but an idiot and an infidel to listen to your sermon, then, and only
then are you making a difference. All else is nothing more that a waste of
time and an exercise in self indulgence. But since the choir is there, what the
hell, let's give them the treatment. It looks good on the news.
When Panam's jet was blown out of the sky over Scotland, we had to beg and plead
and wait. For what? So that the perpetrators could be handed over for trial.
When Pearl Harbor was destroyed, we acted and nearly wiped Japan off the face
of the map. That was sufficient for us to act. Is there a level of horror that
we are prepared to play with and, ah, well, you know, we should show the world
that we are a compassionate people and that our system will eventually execute
justice? Or must we accept that once the level of horror reaches beyond a
certain point, then we are prepared to speak the language of our adversary? But
not sooner?
While we have received blessings, freedom, and peace, and while we ate at the
table of liberal politics, we have allowed our true focus to be blurred. We have
become disciples of our own pleasure and laziness. We have allowed liberal
socialists to sway our determination to remain a strong nation. We have allowed
liberalism and 'feel good' politics to dumb our children down so that they
do not know any longer what to strive for. We have allowed treacherous lies to
confuse us in believing that killing a child is in the interest of comfort.
We have allowed our own people to kill many fellow Americans in cold blood - a
loss of life like we have seen today every year - and we did nothing. Oh, I am
sorry, we actually did something. We debated it and argued about it. And then
we did nothing. Sorry about that little oversight.
President Bush is, in my opinion, a smart man (despite what the popular media
insinuates about him) with extreme talent for strategy and finesse. (I mean,
he navigated his way through an election while the media waited like roaring lions
for him to set a foot wrong so that they could devour him.) I believe that
he will seek wisdom from its Source and take whatever actions are necessary
to prevent this from happening again. And pray that this nation comes to realize
that terrorism is terrorism regardless of where and against whom it is perpetrated.
The adage that 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'
does not apply to the US for two reasons: First, we are already free and second,
we have no desire to terrorize anyone.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: RnJThompson(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:47 PM
Subject: SHIT
It is with deep sense of shock that Jacqui and I greet all of our friends
in
Commanderland. Our thoughts are with you all and we hope that none of you
have any direct involvement in the tragedy.
In my youth I spent a number of years invoved in the fight against terrorism
in South Africa and have very strong views on the practices of these type of
people. The world as a whole seems to have been very willing to find excuses
for this kind of behavior over the last few decades.We have seen people
(possibly with good intentions but no experience in the field) condemn hard
line tactics used by many nations against these threats and people. What you
have to understand is that the normal rules that we all try to live by dont
apply to these people,who prey on the innocent and helpless because they are
too cowardly to take on anyone who can fight back . I am very sorry t! o say
this but WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD.
A number of nations around the world have been experiencing these attacks for
decades. I am sorry that the US has now got to experience these actions on
home soil. I hope that this acts as a catalyst for a new outlook on terrorism
in any shape or form , THAT IT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
I am sorry if the above might be a bit blunt but this has stirred up feelings
that I have been suppressing for many years,hopefully thinking that this kind
of thing was on the decline.But alas .
I hope that your great nation and people take this in your stride and take
all the appropriate measures to not allow it to happen again. As with your
response to the actions of DEC 7, 1941 the time for polite chit-chat is over.
OUR THOUGHTS ARE WITH YOU ALL.
Regards
Richard & Jacqui.
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN...................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DAVID LAWSON <david(at)lawsoninc.net> |
Phil:
Your comments are interesting in light of your location. However, there
more facts that must be fit into the equation.
Mr. Bush inherited a dangerous legacy. He received a military which had
been "gutted" over the prior eight years by the Clinton administration. You
are correct in your comment re the US Army and its training. It impossible
to maintain satisfactory levels of proficiency if you are restricted to a
maximum of four hours of flying time each month (Black Hawke choppers), have
an opportunity to fire live rounds two time a year, and have to take
aircraft off the line to use for spare parts (and that only yields a 45/50%
in commission rate)!
Bush is trying to turn this mess around, however it will take time.
Training must be scheduled, parts contracted for, etc. This will not happen
in a day!
Also, as one of the other folks said in their signal, we must get our
intelligence back on track. The CIA is a solid organization but the muzzle
must be taken off.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Nico van Niekerk [mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:19 PM
To: PhilHackett(at)aol.com; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: shit
Phil,
Thanks for your concerns. The US has its faults and in the aftermath every
match-stick will be picked up, that I assure you. However, I am inclined to
think that Clinton and his liberal policies have set us up to a large extent
by his lackluster dealings with fanatics, who believe that the West should
be destroyed - period. His negotiations in the Israel - Palestinian
so-called peace process was a farce because he was interested in building a
legacy only. This we know because of the pressure that was brought to bear
on the Israelis to sacrifice so much territory and even after complying
mostly with the demands of the Palestinians, Yssar Arafat declined and made
further, unrealistic demands, basically trashing the process - proving that
they never intended to agree on peace with Israel.
This attack was very well planned. Think about it: visitors with valid
visas enter the US. Apparently they did not have firearms or explosives -
but that is not important now - they could have boarded the planes with only
a plastic container of poisonous gas, or disassembled knives, checked in as
first class passengers so that they would be located directly behind the
cockpit, and just unexpectedly got up and overpowered the crew. Two people
could walk the few steps in a matter of seconds, slit the throats of the
pilot and co-pilot, get behind the yoke and - bang.
There are only two ways to defend oneself against this very professional
type of attack and that is, first, human intelligence: knowing what your
adversaries are up to, and second, retaliate so hard that no one would ever
in human memory try to do this again.
I believe the US should throw the UN out of New York. Further we should
flatten the capitols of Afghanistan, Algiers and other countries that
threatened us before, but at night when the least amount of civilian life
would be lost - giving them a chance that they did not give 50,000 US
citizens.
So, although there are faults in the system, and they failed us today, it
does not mean that we should not bite back, and bite very, very hard.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
To: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: shit
Dear All,
For what it is worth, it is being said here in the UK that;
Clinton arranged a commission under Gore to examine airline security. It
was
found to be extremely poor. International flight security was brought up
to
European standards, but, the airlines did not want to ramp up Domestic
security because, they said it would slow down the turn round of
aircraft.
They put the $ first. It is SIGNIFICANT that all these flights today
were
internal! Experts here are saying that this was just an obvious
terrorist
opportunity.
Clinton always kept involved with the Far East, and kept the lid on the
situation. BUSH turned his back on the problem when elected. Now it has
come
to him. Bush has an insular attitude to the world. It appears to us,
that
anything outside America does not exist for the average domestic
citizen, or
Bush. Most Americans do not realise that the USA Army is poorly trained,
and
when deployed in the Balkans recently, was put so far from danger, that
most
troops are even in different countries, from where the trouble is.
If Politicians and Americans per se, keep pretending that American is
Best,
when patently it isn't, someone somewhere will take advantage of you, as
happened today. You and we also, have allowed immigrants into our
countries,
who are intending to destroy us. The infrastructure exists for this to
happen
again, and again within both our countries. The people who struck today,
learned from the aborted attempt to bomb the World Trade Centre eight
years
ago. The NY authorities did not. That is why so many emergency vehicles
were
crushed by debris. They were too close. It took three hours to evacuate
the
WT Centre eight years age. Nothing was done to improve on that, and as a
result people died today. Your airline security people are so poorly
trained,
and paid,that Mcdonalds Burgher staff earn more. It is estimated that up
to
20% of explosives, in tests, get past USA security staff. USA
vulnerability
is well known!
We must all pray for those who perished today, and also those who suffer
grief.
Our lives will never be carefree again. The free, and safe world is a
diminishing place.
War has been declared on all of us, not just USA citizens, and Bush
needs to
grasp that the world is bigger than America. We are your greatest and
most
loyal allies.
I hope Bush learns that from someone soon. I do not feel confident in
him at
all.
God Bless All Of You.
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Terrorism today |
Nico:
I took the liberty of forwarding your letter to my Lady Friend ( widow of
an AF Col. B-47 pilot) this was her reply.
Don
> [Original Message]
> From: June B Kosciuszko <junekos(at)juno.com>
> To:
> Date: 9/12/01 1:53:19 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: RE: Terrorism today
>
> Excellent letter!! I would like to meet Nico some day. Shake his hand
> and say "AMEN"! A smart man and an ablility to express him self
> wisely.JBK
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Bill,
Herewith a MS Publisher 98 timesheet. If you could keep the submission of timesheets
electronic, I would appreciate it. Fill out your hours every day and write
a brief narrative of the work that you have done on a separate Word docment,
and email that to me at timesheets(at)cybersuperstore.com. Use the same time sheet
and just add each day's hours to it and do the same with the Word document.
It is imperative that I receive these documents from you every day so that we
can do the invoicing in a timely manner.
Thanks
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Terrorism today |
The Western world has already expressed great rejection for the attack yesterday
on America. Some say that we better not go after these terrorists before checking
with them. WHAT? I want to say to these countries who want us to check with
them first before finishing this war:
Did the terrorists check with you before attacking us?
If we are swayed for a minute to be less than absolutely focused to swiftly finish
this war, regardless of WHOEVER wants to put this in a committee, then we
will loose this war. If any country even tries to hinder us in this war, they
too should be damned. This is not an FBI exercise or an overt CIA operation, IT
IS WAR! You are either fighting alongside us, are neutral and stay out of the
way, or you are enemy.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lowell Girod
To: Nico van Niekerk
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:21 AM
Subject: RE: Terrorism today
AMEN!
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;RnJThompson(at)aol.com
Sent: 9/12/01 1:15:51 AM
Subject: Terrorism today
Thanks Richard & Jacqui.
I was there when the communist ANC leader Nelson Mandela ordered the bombing
of the Nedbank building in Pretoria killing many innocent people.
The world then said it was in the interest of freedom and condoned it.
I have many times flown at my own expense my Aero Commander into Mozambique
filled with food and provisions after we were let back in after many years of
communist rule and plunder. The country was in ruins.
The world said it was in the interest of freedom and condoned it.
In the '50s when the Belgic Congo received independence and thousands of people
fled the horror of indiscriminate killing, the world said it was in the interest
of freedom and condoned it.
When the WTC was first bombed in '93, a 'feel good' policy caused millions
of dollars to be spent on a trial that accomplished what? It made us feel good
that the world will learn that we are a just people, a civilized nation. That,
when we were not the ones who needed the education. When you preach to the
choir, you can be sure of a captive audience. But try to get those who believe
that you are but an idiot and an infidel to listen to your sermon, then, and
only then are you making a difference. All else is nothing more that a waste of
time and an exercise in self indulgence. But since the choir is there, what
the hell, let's give them the treatment. It looks good on the news.
When Panam's jet was blown out of the sky over Scotland, we had to beg and
plead and wait. For what? So that the perpetrators could be handed over for trial.
When Pearl Harbor was destroyed, we acted and nearly wiped Japan off the face
of the map. That was sufficient for us to act. Is there a level of horror that
we are prepared to play with and, ah, well, you know, we should show the world
that we are a compassionate people and that our system will eventually execute
justice? Or must we accept that once the level of horror reaches beyond
a certain point, then we are prepared to speak the language of our adversary?
But not sooner?
While we have received blessings, freedom, and peace, and while we ate at the
table of liberal politics, we have allowed our true focus to be blurred. We
have become disciples of our own pleasure and laziness. We have allowed liberal
socialists to sway our determination to remain a strong nation. We have allowed
liberalism and 'feel good' politics to dumb our children down so that they
do not know any longer what to strive for. We have allowed treacherous lies
to confuse us in believing that killing a child is in the interest of comfort.
We have allowed our own people to kill many fellow Americans in cold blood -
a loss of life like we have seen today every year - and we did nothing. Oh, I
am sorry, we actually did something. We debated it and argued about it. And then
we did nothing. Sorry about that little oversight.
President Bush is, in my opinion, a smart man (despite what the popular media
insinuates about him) with extreme talent for strategy and finesse. (I mean,
he navigated his way through an election while the media waited like roaring
lions for him to set a foot wrong so that they could devour him.) I believe that
he will seek wisdom from its Source and take whatever actions are necessary
to prevent this from happening again. And pray that this nation comes to realize
that terrorism is terrorism regardless of where and against whom it is perpetrated.
The adage that 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'
does not apply to the US for two reasons: First, we are already free and second,
we have no desire to terrorize anyone.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: RnJThompson(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:47 PM
Subject: SHIT
It is with deep sense of shock that Jacqui and I greet all of our friends
in
Commanderland. Our thoughts are with you all and we hope that none of you
have any direct involvement in the tragedy.
In my youth I spent a number of years invoved in the fight against terrorism
in South Africa and have very strong views on the practices of these type
of
people. The world as a whole seems to have been very willing to find excuses
for this kind of behavior over the last few decades.We have seen people
(possibly with good intentions but no experience in the field) condemn hard
line tactics used by many nations against these threats and people. What
you
have to understand is that the normal rules that we all try to live by dont
apply to these people,who prey on the innocent and helpless because they
are
too cowardly to take on anyone who can fight back . I am very sorry t! o
say
this but WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD.
A number of nations around the world have been experiencing these attacks
for
decades. I am sorry that the US has now got to experience these actions on
home soil. I hope that this acts as a catalyst for a new outlook on terrorism
in any shape or form , THAT IT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
I am sorry if the above might be a bit blunt but this has stirred up feelings
that I have been suppressing for many years,hopefully thinking that this
kind
of thing was on the decline.But alas .
I hope that your great nation and people take this in your stride and take
all the appropriate measures to not allow it to happen again. As with your
response to the actions of DEC 7, 1941 the time for polite chit-chat is over.
OUR THOUGHTS ARE WITH YOU ALL.
Regards
Richard & Jacqui.
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
Im sitting here trying to be tactful and avoid 4 letter words in my response. 1st
I admit I was part of the vast right wing conspiracy that Bill and Hillary
so villified. I had the misfortune of wearing Marine green at a time when the
young Bill and Hillary and their eggsucking liberal friends were carrying signs
that read "babykiller and dogs and Marines keep off the grass" At that time
we were persona non grata in our own country. When Bill was first elected I felt
my country had dealt me the final insult but when he was reelected I felt as
though America had pissed in my face.
I am astounded that this draft dodging, lying, dope smoking piece of shit is so
well liked in Europe.
1. To think that a commision headed by Bills lackey (AL Gore) could possibly come
to any useful conclusions is a mistake.
2. The airlines did not put dollars first, they sensibly realized that guys like
me would tolerate no further gestapo like intrusions when it came to boarding
civil aircraft.
3. Do not believe for an instant that yesterdays events occured because we have
lax security(which we do), they occurred because they do not fear retribution.
4. A determined terrorist could have accomplished this even if the Israelis were
in charge of security, and they certainly arnt lax.
5. They do not fear retribution because for years Bill allowed our "allies" to
convince him to use the "measured response"
to past episodes as opposed to nuking the bastards. This made him look like a statesman
to the europeon community but as we saw yesterday didnt do squat in deterring
the bastards.
6. Yes Bush is insular. Thats because most of us are. The general view here is
we have no friends other than the English speaking countries.
&
7. Most of us cannot understand any benefit from our involvement in the Balkans.
Let them kill each other we clearly have our own concerns to worry about.
8. Everytime a crisis erupts we hear our military is not well trained but this
same not well trained miliitary is responsible for a free Europe, a free South
Korea, a free Taiwan, and a free Kuwait. Every problem our military has is attributable
to weakkneed scum politicians like clinton/gore but they sure do shine
under great men like Reagan and George Bush senior, & I think we are about
to see them shine under the leadership of little Bush.
9. I just hope to hell he ignores the advice of some of our so called allies and
goes out with our poorly trained military and kills a few million of these arab
bastards.
Then maybe we can do away with the poorly paid poorly trained security people and
get back to anormal life knowing that any would be terrorist understands the
horrible retribution his race,religion or nation will face.
10. The way to deal with this is a horrible swift unimaginably cruel response.
Not more security and more emergency response procedures.
There I hope i didnt cuss to much but do feel better after having said all that.
Big aL YOURE MY HERO.
mILT
----- Original Message -----
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
To: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: shit
Dear All,
For what it is worth, it is being said here in the UK that;
Clinton arranged a commission under Gore to examine airline security. It
was
found to be extremely poor. International flight security was brought up
to
European standards, but, the airlines did not want to ramp up Domestic
security because, they said it would slow down the turn round of aircraft.
They put the $ first. It is SIGNIFICANT that all these flights today were
internal! Experts here are saying that this was just an obvious terrorist
opportunity.
Clinton always kept involved with the Far East, and kept the lid on the
situation. BUSH turned his back on the problem when elected. Now it has come
to him. Bush has an insular attitude to the world. It appears to us, that
anything outside America does not exist for the average domestic citizen,
or
Bush. Most Americans do not realise that the USA Army is poorly trained,
and
when deployed in the Balkans recently, was put so far from danger, that most
troops are even in different countries, from where the trouble is.
If Politicians and Americans per se, keep pretending that American is Best,
when patently it isn't, someone somewhere will take advantage of you, as
happened today. You and we also, have allowed immigrants into our countries,
who are intending to destroy us. The infrastructure exists for this to happen
again, and again within both our countries. The people who struck today,
learned from the aborted attempt to bomb the World Trade Centre eight years
ago. The NY authorities did not. That is why so many emergency vehicles were
crushed by debris. They were too close. It took three hours to evacuate the
WT Centre eight years age. Nothing was done to improve on that, and as a
result people died today. Your airline security people are so poorly trained,
and paid,that Mcdonalds Burgher staff earn more. It is estimated that up
to
20% of explosives, in tests, get past USA security staff. USA vulnerability
is well known!
We must all pray for those who perished today, and also those who suffer
grief.
Our lives will never be carefree again. The free, and safe world is a
diminishing place.
War has been declared on all of us, not just USA citizens, and Bush needs
to
grasp that the world is bigger than America. We are your greatest and most
loyal allies.
I hope Bush learns that from someone soon. I do not feel confident in him
at
all.
God Bless All Of You.
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
"Flying Commanders"
I'm thinking about getting out the ole 'Wild Weasel' patch and putting it on
a new larger flight jacket (the old one shrunk). Just in case those F-16 kids
need some help hunting. Anyone got an STC for a Falcon in the nose and pylons
on the wings of the Commander? May not be the Thud, but it would still be
formidable! Won't go 500 knots on the deck but, we still "Go like the wind".
Just hope I don't have to camouflage paint it!
Don
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
Commanders;
Just saw a very nice news story on Channel 11 TV in ATL, although commercial
flights are stopped, they are using Angel Flights to transport Am. Red Cross
Blood to where ever its needed. Wish my Commander was out of annual, I's use
it, anyone else in the area might want to check with Angel Flight and see if
they can be of assistance.
Don
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/12/2001 3:36:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mdcmd@ms-online.com writes:
> Im sitting here trying to be tactful and avoid 4 letter words in my
> response. 1st I admit I was part of the vast right wing conspiracy that
> Bill and Hillary so villified. I had the misfortune of wearing
SEMPER FI MILT --- I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER
JIM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | One of Many Editorials to Come. |
Milt,
There were some 4 letter words missing.
Pardon me F#$% Them.
bilbo
> Subject: One of Many Editorials to Come.
>
>
> > > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
> > >
> > > America: The Good Neighbor.
> > >
> > > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
> > > remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
> Canadian
> > > television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant
> > > remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
> > >
> > >
> > > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
> most
> > > generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
> > > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
> out
> > > of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of
dollars
> > > and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today
> > > paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
> When
> > > France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
> > > propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
> > > streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> > >
> > > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
> hurries
> > > in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by
> > > tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy
pumped
> > > billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in
those
> > > countries are writing about the
> > > decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those
> > > countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar
> > > build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a
plane
> > > to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas
> DC10?
> > > If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines
> except
> > > Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even
> consider
> > > putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy,
> > > and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get
> > > automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on
> the
> > > moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk
> about
> > > scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for
> > > everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and
> > > hounded.
> > >
> > > They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking
> > > Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to
> > > spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were
breaking
> > > down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
> > > Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned
> > > them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
> > >
> > > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other
> > > people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced
> > > to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
> > > during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it
alone,
> > > and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked
> > > around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And
when
> > > they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are
> > > gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
> > > those."
> > >
> > >
> > > Stand proud, America!
> > >
> > > This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
> > > United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that
the
> > > rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for
everything,
> > > and never even get a thank you for the things we do. I would hope that
> > > each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize
> > > that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter
> is
> > > sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American/U.S.
> citizen
> > > that has read this. I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.
> > >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N700PF(at)aol.com <N700PF(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | I thought this was worth sharing |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com <RnJThompson(at)aol.com> |
Milt,
I hope that all those who have ever sat at home all nice and warm and safe
without any thought for those who are in harms way, take a little time to
reflect.
I spent a number of years in the early 80s hunting down and killing the same
bastards that now run the country of my birth. The same people who around the
world who spat on you guys hold the great MANDELA in high regard. There is
no difference between him and all the other terrorist leaders around the
world. Please note how quiet he and his pals have been over the last days.
Terrorism is the lowest form of human endeavour. They are people who prey on
the helpless and undefended,often using the guise of Freedom Fighters. The
only thing that seems unusual about the people they are trying to free is
that they seem to be able to kill them and main them in unbelievable numbers.
All the while being applauded by the Liberal world of bullshit politics. The
west over the last decades have delivered millions of people into the hands
tyrants , in the name of freedom.
I believe that its time to stop.
Please dont believe that this is just a pissed off ex South African white
mans view as most of my team in the 80s was black.
The only way to deal with these bastards is to go and kill them where they
come from, with no exeptions. Political boundaries and bullshit do not apply.
They must have no place to hide and no one willing to shelter them. Do not be
afraid to take out their mates they hide behind. We all seem to think of
innocent bystanders as being sacred. But how innocent are they by aiding and
abbeting. Try your luck in a courthouse as being a party to a crime, even if
you did not actually commit it.You go down with the rest.
There can be no place to hide.And no bloody LAWYERS talking about human
rights.They gave up those rights by their acts.
Anyway thats enough from me , just remember that you vets are not the only
nationality to get kicked in the teeth by those same people you who freedom
and safety you have ensured.
Regards,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com <RnJThompson(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of Many Editorials to Come. |
Hi Bilbo,
Well put .
Unfortunately the world looks on the US in the same fashion that many workers
look upon their bosses, forgetting that if he was not there, THEY WOULD NOT
HAVE A JOB!
I liked the gift bestowed on our Prime Minister by the US for our help in
your last major fires. A chrome plated axe.
Cheers,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of Many Editorials to Come. |
The events of the last few days brought horrible memories back, Richard. I was
on my way to South Africa. Now I am not.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: RnJThompson(at)aol.com
To: w.bow(at)att.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: One of Many Editorials to Come.
Hi Bilbo,
Well put .
Unfortunately the world looks on the US in the same fashion that many workers
look upon their bosses, forgetting that if he was not there, THEY WOULD NOT
HAVE A JOB!
I liked the gift bestowed on our Prime Minister by the US for our help in
your last major fires. A chrome plated axe.
Cheers,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Feelings from Oz! |
Greetings to all in Commanderland,
To all my great friends in America...
Know that we here in Australia have been numbed and shocked by this
unprecedented and tragic event. We are enveloped in the same thoughts of
grief, same thoughts of horror and same thoughts of moral outrage.
We are a nation (albeit small in population) who unequivocally share your
visions as we look toward the future; the same richness of freedom and
choice and the same democratic desires and hopes...
As John Howard (our PM) made very clear in Washington yesterday, Australia
stands tall alongside America in administering the necessary solutions in
order to safeguard our future. As a country we too have suffered from a
wind-down in the strength of our military. Our role in quelling the
Indonesian invasion of East Timor in 1999 showed us how vulnerable we were.
We too have been at the mercy of legal argument and loud minority groups. We
too see the need to unite and send a strong and direct message.
Maybe it was a strange irony that just prior to the attacks, Bill Clinton
was hosting a $1000 per head dinner in Sydney...he told the Australians
present that the world had to do something swiftly about the 1.5 billion
people who do not have access to clean drinking water...
We are partner countries; we have mature immigration laws and processes...we
dont require Visas for entry or exit. We must do everything we can to
ensure that our freedoms are maintained... The only way forward is to unite.
My thoughts are with you and yours.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | H. James McConnell <skipper10(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Angel Flights |
Suggest you also volunteer your aircraft and services to FEMA and to the Red
Cross. Jim McConnell, Pilots for Christ, International AC560 2705B
----- Original Message -----
From: Lowell Girod
To: TCFG
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:31 PM
Subject: Angel Flights
Commanders;
Just saw a very nice news story on Channel 11 TV in ATL, although commercial
flights are stopped, they are using Angel Flights to transport Am. Red Cross
Blood to where ever its needed. Wish my Commander was out of annual, I's use
it, anyone else in the area might want to check with Angel Flight and see if
they can be of assistance.
Don
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Angel Flights |
DON:
I'M READY.
ROME GA (RMG)
PLEASE ADVISE IF YOU NEED A PLANE AND CREW.
N811D IS FUELED AND READY TO FLY.
GARY TILLMAN 800-228-4283
PS. I UNDERSTAND THAT NY HAS ENOUGH BLOOD AT THIS TIME.?
WHAT DO YOU GUYS KNOW? IS THIS INFO. CORRECT.?
________________________________________________________________________________
Richard,
It would be OK even if you were just a pissed off white guy. No one in my family
nor my friends can understand the hate I have in my gut for Bill Clinton although
I suspect you Nico and Russel can. I cant even imagine what you must feel
when you see the whole world kissing mandellas ass.
At least you can take some comfort in knowing that all his buddies were buffing
his old lady while he jerked off in a prison cell.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One of Many Editorials to Come. |
Nico,
Whenever you do go to bring the plane back let me know. If I can get away Id love
to be your co-pilot
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: RnJThompson(at)aol.com ; w.bow(at)att.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: One of Many Editorials to Come.
The events of the last few days brought horrible memories back, Richard. I was
on my way to South Africa. Now I am not.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: RnJThompson(at)aol.com
To: w.bow(at)att.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: One of Many Editorials to Come.
Hi Bilbo,
Well put .
Unfortunately the world looks on the US in the same fashion that many workers
look upon their bosses, forgetting that if he was not there, THEY WOULD NOT
HAVE A JOB!
I liked the gift bestowed on our Prime Minister by the US for our help in
your last major fires. A chrome plated axe.
Cheers,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
An Englishman,an Aussie,a Red-neck,and a terrorist were sitting o a river
bank drinking. The Englishman turned up his Guiness and drank it all,then he
tossed the bottle into the air ,pulled out his gun,BANG, and shot the
bottle.The Aussie then did the same to his Fosters,Bang,shot the bottle.The
RED-NECK,not to be outdone proceeded to do the same to his Bud,pulled out
his gun,BANG,shot the terrorist!!! AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
I like to think my 500A has 2 right wings, one just happens to be on the left side.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Furlong5(at)aol.com
To: mdcmd(at)ms-online.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: shit
In a message dated 9/12/2001 3:36:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mdcmd@ms-online.com writes:
Im sitting here trying to be tactful and avoid 4 letter words in my
response. 1st I admit I was part of the vast right wing conspiracy that
Bill and Hillary so villified. I had the misfortune of wearing
SEMPER FI MILT --- I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER
JIM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: added to list |
Jody and Susan Pillatzki wrote:
>
> Dear sirs, I am currently shopping for an older commander twin and would
> like to get on you chat for info. Currently flying an M20C. Don't know a lot
> about the commander except they have the right number of seats and are
> sexy!!!! Don't take that the wrong way.
> Jody Pillatzki ( Mr. ) Nobody is ever quite sure with a name like
> Jody
Welcome aboard Jody. I've added the commandchat to this reply to
get your question out. You'll find an unlimited depth of knowledge
and quite a few "opinions" here :-)
The short version answer is that all of the Commanders are truely
excellent aircraft. There is a broad range of models which fit
various mission requirements. Essentially, you have the oldest
"bathtub nacelle" birds, and the newer "speedline nacelle" models.
The latter are available in "small" and "extra large" sizes. Commander
used many different engines - it's a matter of picking out a model
that fits your needs and that you can afford to put gas into. At the
least expensive to operate end would be the straight 500 with the O-540
Lycs. Solid, durable, reliable, and economical to operate but the
slowest of the line. At the other end are the 560F and 680(E,F,FL)
birds with monster powerplants. Basicly the same airframe but with
substantially enhanced performance (and the fuel flows that go
along with it). Further details available at the web site:
http://www.aerocommander.com
Chris Schuermann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com <RnJThompson(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of Many Editorials to Come. |
Hey Boet,
Excuse me baas,i want job to drive airplanbe to US.
As you might of heard I opened my big gob and told all at the fly in that I
would have my 680E on the line at Dayton. So am trying to get as much ferry
experience as possible.If you have aspot,just call.
Cheers,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Good Morning Phil.
Before you say anything else about the U.S. Military, or spout off anymore
bullshit about our foriegn politics let me point out one little thing.
The State of Georgia is bigger than your whole damn country!!
The State of Texas is as big as your whole damn Continent.
The President is from Texas.
George Bush is fixin' to give terrorist the world over an ole fashion RED
NECK ASS WHOOPIN!!!!!!
If you think that our ARMY cant do it then I would DUCK BEFORE THE NUCLEAR
MISSLES SUBS LAUNCH. DO YOU THINK WE CAN AT LEAST PULL THAT OFF???????
Paul (Still young enough to enlist) Reason
Newnan, GA
You can find my house easily, It's the one flying the American Flag, With a
Months worth of food and water strored in the garage. The Same one that has
a loaded weapon within a 5 foot range of every room in the house.
The Same one you might read about if an arab looking person approaches my
house attempting to sell me a subscription to the Wall Street Journal.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: few items for sale |
In a message dated 9/13/2001 5:01:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
>
> Randy Sharp is selling his 500B (which y'all will remember from
> the flyin. Has a beautiful custom panel).
>
>
PRICE??????????
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
If your plane has a sticker on it that reads;HEY OSAMA GO #&*# YO MAMA,you
might be a RED-NECKED COMMANDER PILOT!!!! AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | On a lighter note |
HI KIDS............
I am so moved the passion this group has shown. My wife is the
personnel director for a large local employer and she had to send a Russian
immigrant home yesterday for sharing with her workforce that "America got
what it deserves" He was sent home for HIS protection!! Not everbody gets
it!! My prayers are with those who lost so much. Those left behind. For
the kids whos parents havent come home from work, and never will.
That said, life must at some point go on and I believe the sooner the
better. We need to get our airplanes back in the air and start to stimulate
the economy ASAP. Lets all hope and pray that our airspace system can be
returned to some for of normalcy soon, very soon. As it has been said, "The
best revenge is to live well" While the As..........H.......who did this
hides like a coward in the hot, sweaty desert, (until we run a cruse missile
up his A...), I will soon be back at the controls of my own private airplane
enjoying all the beauty that is AMERICA!
I want to welcome a new member to the TCFG. Randy Dettmer flies a
680F and lives in San Luis Obispo CA. Welcome aboard!!
I just finished installing 1/2 inch windows in triple 2. For obvious
reasons I haven't flow her yet but as I taxied to the wash rack, I could
notice the difference.
Thanks for the passion. In Christ capt jimbob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: added to list |
In a message dated 9/13/2001 1:14:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
> Jody and Susan Pillatzki wrote:
> >
> > Dear sirs, I am currently shopping for an older commander twin and would
> > like to get on you chat for info. Currently flying an M20C. Don't know a
> lot
>
JODY,
WHAT IS YOUR BUDGET?
JIM FURLONG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | [10th AF Discussion] [[B-24] [This says it all...]] |
Commanderland
This says it a lot better than I can.
Tylor Hall
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Winter [mailto:thenazgul(at)earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 5:13 PM
To: 10th Air Force Discussion; Avalon Info
Subject: [10th AF Discussion] [Fwd: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says it all...]]
The following appeared in the Seattle times yesterday (9-12-01). I
think, this, more than anything else sums up the feelings of the
American people.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says it all...]
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:51:03 -0700
From: Patrick Frost <pfrost(at)ucla.edu>
Reply-To: pfrost(at)ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA NPI
To: b24(at)mach3ww.com
> Subject: FW: From the Seattle Times
>
> By Leonard Pitts Jr.
> Syndicated columnist
>
> They pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and
> cultural issues, to provide words that help make sense of that which
> troubles the American soul.
>
> But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting
> disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words
> that
> seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this
> suffering.
>
> You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What
> lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
> Trade
> Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
> Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
>
> Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your
> cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
> Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together. Let me
> tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
> family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a
> family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending
> tremendous emotionalenergy on pop cultural minutiae, a singer's
> revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.
>
> We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of
> trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk
> through
> life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally
> decent, though - peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to
> know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming
> majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
>
> Some people - you, perhaps - think that any or all of this
> makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are
> strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.
>
> Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in
> shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you
>
> did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a
> special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot
> development
> from a Tom Clancy novel.
>
> Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the
> probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the
> worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and,
> indeed, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have
> never been bloodied before.
>
> But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody
> and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter
> sorrow the last timeanyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone
> brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are
> righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this
> level
> of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to
> any length, in the pursuit of justice.
>
> I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my
> people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also
> causes me to tremble with dread of the future.
>
> In days to come, there will be recrimination and
> accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this
> to happen
> and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will
> be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic
> freedoms. We'll go forward from this momentsobered, chastened, sad.
> But
> determined, too. Unimaginably determined.
>
> You see, there is steel beneath this velvet. That aspect of
> our character isseldom understood by people who don't know us
> well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As
> Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans,
> we will
> rise in defense of all that we cherish.
>
> Still, I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us.
> It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of
> your hatred.
>
> If that's the case, consider the message received. And take
> this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't
> know what we're about. You don't know what you just started.
>
> But you're about to learn.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> Donate cash, emergency relief information
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
Milt,
My solution is to nuke them all till they glow and then just shoot them in the
dark!
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: [10th AF Discussion] [[B-24] [This says itall...]] |
Amen.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
> From: Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net>
> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:40:27 -0500
> To: "Rgriffith(at)Kcac. Com" , "Commanderchat(at)C2-Tech. Com"
> , Wil McAndrew
>
> Subject: FW: [10th AF Discussion] [Fwd: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says it all...]]
>
> Commanderland
>
> This says it a lot better than I can.
> Tylor Hall
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Winter [mailto:thenazgul(at)earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 5:13 PM
> To: 10th Air Force Discussion; Avalon Info
> Subject: [10th AF Discussion] [Fwd: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says it all...]]
>
>
> The following appeared in the Seattle times yesterday (9-12-01). I
> think, this, more than anything else sums up the feelings of the
> American people.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says it all...]
> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:51:03 -0700
> From: Patrick Frost <pfrost(at)ucla.edu>
> Reply-To: pfrost(at)ucla.edu
> Organization: UCLA NPI
> To: b24(at)mach3ww.com
>
>> Subject: FW: From the Seattle Times
>>
>> By Leonard Pitts Jr.
>> Syndicated columnist
>>
>> They pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and
>> cultural issues, to provide words that help make sense of that which
>> troubles the American soul.
>>
>> But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting
>> disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words
>> that
>> seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this
>> suffering.
>>
>> You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What
>> lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
>> Trade
>> Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
>> Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
>>
>> Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your
>> cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
>> Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together. Let me
>> tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
>> family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a
>> family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending
>> tremendous emotionalenergy on pop cultural minutiae, a singer's
>> revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.
>>
>> We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of
>> trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk
>> through
>> life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally
>> decent, though - peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to
>> know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming
>> majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
>>
>> Some people - you, perhaps - think that any or all of this
>> makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are
>> strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.
>>
>> Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in
>> shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you
>>
>> did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a
>> special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot
>> development
>> from a Tom Clancy novel.
>>
>> Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the
>> probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the
>> worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and,
>> indeed, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have
>> never been bloodied before.
>>
>> But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody
>> and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter
>> sorrow the last timeanyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone
>> brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are
>> righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this
>> level
>> of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to
>> any length, in the pursuit of justice.
>>
>> I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my
>> people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also
>> causes me to tremble with dread of the future.
>>
>> In days to come, there will be recrimination and
>> accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this
>> to happen
>> and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will
>> be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic
>> freedoms. We'll go forward from this momentsobered, chastened, sad.
>> But
>> determined, too. Unimaginably determined.
>>
>> You see, there is steel beneath this velvet. That aspect of
>> our character isseldom understood by people who don't know us
>> well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As
>> Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans,
>> we will
>> rise in defense of all that we cherish.
>>
>> Still, I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us.
>> It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of
>> your hatred.
>>
>> If that's the case, consider the message received. And take
>> this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't
>> know what we're about. You don't know what you just started.
>>
>> But you're about to learn.
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
>> Donate cash, emergency relief information
>> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> --
> To unsubscribe: mail majordomo(at)mach3ww.com and place "unsubscribe b24"
> in
> the body. For help: mail majordomo(at)mach3ww.com and place "help" in the
> body. The Internet B-24 Veterans Group: http://www.b24.mach3ww.com/
>
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>
>
>
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>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com <RnJThompson(at)aol.com> |
Hi Paul,
This has come as a great shock to all of you in the US. You believed in your
great country that things like this would never happen to you.A lot of people
in the US have supported different organizations around the world for
decades, IRA, ANC are just acouple. I believe that this was always done by
people who possibly did not know the basic facts and believed they were
supporting freedom. We on the outside world have often wondered how this
could be. The bottom line I believe is that the people of the US have never
had this type of thing committed on a large scale or for that matter have
never had foreign invaders on their soil, and therefore cant begin to
understand what other countries have been put through.Remember that Europe
and other parts of the world have been dealing with this problem for decades
in their own back yards. You are the new boys on the block. Not that we think
you cant deal with it, we are watching to see how you deal with it.
The Actions your nation are about to embark upon as many nations before you
have would have resulted in howls of protest from the US in the past as there
was no public support . You now have that support and can do no wrong at the
moment .Use this time WISELY.
Dont be offended by the comments from Phil , he does have a view that he is
entitled to as all of us do. As you might have surmised from the last few
utterences of mine I follow the Military world with great interest and have
watched the Political system in the US trying to pull the teeth from the
military, and finding fault with all they do and have done in the past, WW2
vets are heros, What about Vietnam vets? You all have a major idealogical
problem to get over , but you will. The US will be a stronger nation for it.
Your people will have more experience and this will ultimately spread to your
foriegn policy resulting in the rest of the world having a lot more respect
for those policies.
The path to PEACE HAPPINESS AND PROSPERITY is littered with the corpses of
those who try to oppose it. You have to work hard at it, you have to do
things that are hard,you need people with the balls and determination to do
things that that will shock many. There is no easy way out. The pen and
talking only works after the sword has been swung. The people of the US need
to get behind the MIlitary and support them 100% you must never go back to
the days of the 60s and 70s when people were spitting on GIs in the streets.
As you have just learnt, THEY ARE THE ONLY THING THAT STAND BETWEEN YOU AND
CHAOS.
Nukes wont help you in this, it has to be done with skill and finess almost
surgically as adoctor would remove cancer. As I have said before they must
have no plcae to hide, The countries and organizations that harbour these
people can be destroyed by various financial means,shutting down borders and
airspace etc.
As I write this I have an ex SAS mate of mine looking over my shoulder
passing comment (not nice and definately not printable)
Be strong and determined and dont falter if it gets hard, dont be too proud
to take advice or help from others who are good at this sort of thing.
Regards ,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Tribute to America |
From Jim & Lori Jorgensen - God Bless America!
-----Original Message-----
From:
Connie M Murphy [mailto:connter(at)juno.com]
Sent:
Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:39 PM
To:
HNBates(at)aol.com; l.w.clark(at)nw.amedd.army.mil; jcdmd2(at)juno.com;
emforest(at)juno.com; take5(at)cdsnet.net; G-S-Haynes(at)worldnet.att.net;
jonesbruce(at)email.msn.com; res00rbl(at)verizon.net; RPKMK(at)aol.com;
danidaho(at)msn.com; andym(at)pesnet.com; denny.nielsen(at)salemhospital.org;
ajnorby(at)juno.com; srscharf(at)teleport.com; mers(at)us.ibm.com;
traci.shepard(at)excite.com; bshidler(at)aol.com; crsimmons(at)qwest.net;
invest(at)ycsi.met
Subject:
Fw: Fwd: FW: Tribute to America (Long - but true).
> >
> > I needed to read this in light of today's events.....
> > TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
>
> > > >America: The Good Neighbor.
> > > >Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
> > > >recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
> > > >Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
> > > >Commentator. What follows is the full text of his
> > > >trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
> > > >Record:
> > > >
> > > >"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
> > > >Americans as the most generous and possibly the
> > > >least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany,
> > > >Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy
> > > >were lifted out of the debris of war by the
> > > >Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> > > >forgave other billions in debts.
> > > >
> > > >None of these countries is today paying even the
> > > >interest on its remaining debts to the United
> > > >States. When France was in danger of collapsing in
> > > >1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and
> > > >their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
> > > >streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> > > >
> > > >When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> > > >United States that hurries in to help. This spring,
> > > >59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> > > >Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman
> > > >Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged
> > > >countries. Now newspapers in those countries are
> > > >writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
> > > >
> > > >I'd like to see just one of those countries that is
> > > >gloating over the erosion of the United States
> > > >dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> > > >country in the world have a plane to equal the
> > > >Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the
> > > >Douglas DC10?
> > > >
> > > >If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
> > > >International lines except Russia fly American
> > > >Planes? Why does no other land on earth even
> > > >consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You
> > > >talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
> > > >You talk about German technocracy, and you get
> > > >automobiles. You talk about American technocracy,
> > > >and you find men on the moon - not once, but several
> > > >times - and safely home again.
> > > >
> > > >You talk about scandals, and the Americans put
> > > >theirs right in the store window for everybody to
> > > >look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
> > > >and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most
> > > >of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
> > > >getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to
> > > >spend here.
> > > >
> > > >When the railways of France, Germany and India were
> > > >breaking down through age, it was the Americans who
> > > >rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
> > > >New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
> > > >old caboose. Both are still broke.
> > > >
> > > >I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
> > > >to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
> > > >me even one time when someone else raced to the
> > > >Americans in trouble? I don't think there was
> > > >outside help even during the San Francisco
> > > >earthquake.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> > > >Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> > > >kicked around. They will come out of this thing
> > > >with their flag high. And when they do, they are
> > > >entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are
> > > >gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada
> > > >is not one of those."
> > > >
> > > >Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!
> > > >This is one of the best editorials that I have ever
> > > >read regarding the United States. It is nice that
> > > >one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of
> > > >the world would realize it. We are always blamed for
> > > >everything, and never even get a thank you for the
> > > >things we do.
> > > >
> > > >I would hope that each of you would send this to as
> > > >many people as you can and emphasize that they
> > > >should send it to as many of their friends until
> > > >this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am
> > > >just a single American that has read this, TRIBUTE TO
> > > >THE UNITED STATES
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/13/2001 5:02:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
whiteslave2(at)home.com writes:
> . It is our vision to see
> Stars and Stripes flying on every street in every city across this entire
> great nation.
>
> God bless America!
>
TWO FLAGS FLY AT MY HOUSE --- THE AMERICAN FLAG AND THE UNITED STATES MARINE
CORP FLAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
If your plane has a sticker on it that reads;HEY OSAMA GO #&*# YO MAMA,you
might be a RED-NECKED COMMANDER PILOT!!!! AL
HEY MILT, At least I cleaned it up for the ladies!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
IT LOOKS LIKE RANDY'S AIRPLANE IS A STEAL AT $175k BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE
WITH MY PURCHASE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: few items for sale |
http://www.aerocommander.com/4Sale/index.html
$175,000
It is on the web page with photos.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
Randy Sharp is selling his 500B (which y'all will remember from
the flyin. Has a beautiful custom panel).
Chris
PRICE??????????
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | A small bit of inspiration |
Got this from my son.
Don
> > >
> > > Subject:
A small bit of inspiration
> > >
> > >
> > > At first I thought it might be seen as being in bad taste, but the
> more
> > I
> > > thought about it, the more poignant the caption seemed to be.
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | List status - please read |
To my extended "family" of friends and fellow Commander nuts,
As everyone who's been here a while knows, I'm usually pretty
adamant about keeping the topic here focused on Commander related
issues. I just want to say that for the time being, I want you
all to know that open discussion regarding the horrific act of
sensless violence which has occured is welcome here. This is
an issue which eclipses all other issues in our normal little
lives. Each of us has been personally attacked and injured by
the events of the last few days and the need to be able to simply
talk to friends far outweighs any other benefit of this forum.
Our shared sadness and even outrage is merely a step in the healing
process which will contine for a long time.
I consider many of you to be some of my closest friends even though
we have not had the chance to spend much time together. As the
events of the last few days have unrolled, I can see that the
collective "we" of the world are pulling together into a unified
conciousness never previously imagined.
We must resolve not to allow the actions of a few barbaric animals
to destroy our freedoms and liberties. If we, the people of the
United States and the whole rest of the civilized world, allow these
events to cause us to strangle ourselves in a mire of fear and
regulations, then the "bad guys" have won the war already. We
must mourn those who we have lost, then focus our vengance on those
who have committed this awful crime while not allowing ourselves
to succumb to the irrational hatred which drove those who we seek.
If you have visited the web site this week, you have seen that the
page background is black and that our flag stands proudly at the
top. The page will remain in this state until those who committed
this attrocity have been eradicated and no longer pose a threat.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)acu.org> |
| Subject: | Re: [10th AF Discussion] [[B-24] [This says itall...]] |
The ultimate insult would be if we effect this fix without an absolute,
resolute, passion until the world is rid of this problem. Our diligence and
passion must far outstrip that of any Nazi-hunt. It must become like a
religion, our way of life: it should never go away again. The nations
harboring and assisting these terrorists must buckle under the weight of the
liability that these 'guests' will become.
They must be pierced like those planes sliced into those buildings.
They must burn like those towers burned.
They must crumble and crash to the rubbish heap of humanity, without hope of
recovery.
Suicide, then, will have proper meaning for them: death will not come at the
time they choose. If they believe that they will spend an eternity with
their god, it will be so arranged.
Freedom of speech should not include freedom to harm or kill us.
I firmly believe that our President will not let us down. I am not so sure
about the others. It will be interesting to see how long would they hold
their breaths under the leadership of our 'dumb' president before they go
about their ways as usual.
We must not tolerate that. We must vote these suckers out of office until
they, too, learn about the anger that has been released from a scorched
nation. It is justifiably aimed at anyone who would dare stand in the way of
this resolve - FOREVER!
The dust has been clearly blown off the pages of our constitution. To these
guys I say: now you have no excuse - read it! Else we will make you
understand it when you walk away in shame from the ballot box.
I just read of the ultimate stupidity: A Russian immigrant said that America
got what it deserved. From what I understand, he was immediately sent
packing. It wasn't a good time to test the envelope of freedom of speech. It
was long overdue that this envelope was clearly defined. Good riddance!
Nico
must never go away again.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net>
To: Commanderchat(at)C2-Tech. Com
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [10th AF Discussion] [Fwd: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says
itall...]]
> Amen.
>
> Barry Hancock
> Precision Flight Networks
> (949) 300-5510
> bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
>
>
> > From: Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net>
> > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:40:27 -0500
> > To: "Rgriffith(at)Kcac. Com" , "Commanderchat(at)C2-Tech.
Com"
> > , Wil McAndrew
> >
> > Subject: FW: [10th AF Discussion] [Fwd: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says it
all...]]
> >
> > Commanderland
> >
> > This says it a lot better than I can.
> > Tylor Hall
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Winter [mailto:thenazgul(at)earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 5:13 PM
> > To: 10th Air Force Discussion; Avalon Info
> > Subject: [10th AF Discussion] [Fwd: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says it
all...]]
> >
> >
> > The following appeared in the Seattle times yesterday (9-12-01). I
> > think, this, more than anything else sums up the feelings of the
> > American people.
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: [B-24] [Fwd: FW: This says it all...]
> > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:51:03 -0700
> > From: Patrick Frost <pfrost(at)ucla.edu>
> > Reply-To: pfrost(at)ucla.edu
> > Organization: UCLA NPI
> > To: b24(at)mach3ww.com
> >
> >> Subject: FW: From the Seattle Times
> >>
> >> By Leonard Pitts Jr.
> >> Syndicated columnist
> >>
> >> They pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and
> >> cultural issues, to provide words that help make sense of that which
> >> troubles the American soul.
> >>
> >> But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting
> >> disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words
> >> that
> >> seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this
> >> suffering.
> >>
> >> You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What
> >> lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
> >> Trade
> >> Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
> >> Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
> >>
> >> Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your
> >> cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
> >> Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together. Let me
> >> tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
> >> family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a
> >> family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending
> >> tremendous emotionalenergy on pop cultural minutiae, a singer's
> >> revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.
> >>
> >> We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of
> >> trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk
> >> through
> >> life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally
> >> decent, though - peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to
> >> know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming
> >> majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
> >>
> >> Some people - you, perhaps - think that any or all of this
> >> makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are
> >> strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.
> >>
> >> Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in
> >> shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you
> >>
> >> did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a
> >> special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot
> >> development
> >> from a Tom Clancy novel.
> >>
> >> Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the
> >> probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the
> >> worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and,
> >> indeed, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have
> >> never been bloodied before.
> >>
> >> But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody
> >> and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter
> >> sorrow the last timeanyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone
> >> brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are
> >> righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this
> >> level
> >> of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to
> >> any length, in the pursuit of justice.
> >>
> >> I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my
> >> people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also
> >> causes me to tremble with dread of the future.
> >>
> >> In days to come, there will be recrimination and
> >> accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this
> >> to happen
> >> and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will
> >> be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic
> >> freedoms. We'll go forward from this momentsobered, chastened, sad.
> >> But
> >> determined, too. Unimaginably determined.
> >>
> >> You see, there is steel beneath this velvet. That aspect of
> >> our character isseldom understood by people who don't know us
> >> well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As
> >> Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans,
> >> we will
> >> rise in defense of all that we cherish.
> >>
> >> Still, I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us.
> >> It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of
> >> your hatred.
> >>
> >> If that's the case, consider the message received. And take
> >> this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't
> >> know what we're about. You don't know what you just started.
> >>
> >> But you're about to learn.
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> >> Donate cash, emergency relief information
> >> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> > --
> > To unsubscribe: mail majordomo(at)mach3ww.com and place "unsubscribe b24"
> > in
> > the body. For help: mail majordomo(at)mach3ww.com and place "help" in the
> > body. The Internet B-24 Veterans Group: http://www.b24.mach3ww.com/
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> > FREE COLLEGE MONEY
> > CLICK HERE to search
> > 600,000 scholarships!
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/KmiolB/TM
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > discusstenthaf-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com
> >
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> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N700PF(at)aol.com <N700PF(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS............
How about Columbia, SC? Eagle Aviation has just become the
newest Commander service center. Might be a nice place. Comments?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: List status - please read |
Thank you, Chris. It was a very smart and effective move. I, for one,
certainly used it well.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:02 PM
Subject: List status - please read
> To my extended "family" of friends and fellow Commander nuts,
>
> As everyone who's been here a while knows, I'm usually pretty
> adamant about keeping the topic here focused on Commander related
> issues. I just want to say that for the time being, I want you
> all to know that open discussion regarding the horrific act of
> sensless violence which has occured is welcome here. This is
> an issue which eclipses all other issues in our normal little
> lives. Each of us has been personally attacked and injured by
> the events of the last few days and the need to be able to simply
> talk to friends far outweighs any other benefit of this forum.
> Our shared sadness and even outrage is merely a step in the healing
> process which will contine for a long time.
> I consider many of you to be some of my closest friends even though
> we have not had the chance to spend much time together. As the
> events of the last few days have unrolled, I can see that the
> collective "we" of the world are pulling together into a unified
> conciousness never previously imagined.
> We must resolve not to allow the actions of a few barbaric animals
> to destroy our freedoms and liberties. If we, the people of the
> United States and the whole rest of the civilized world, allow these
> events to cause us to strangle ourselves in a mire of fear and
> regulations, then the "bad guys" have won the war already. We
> must mourn those who we have lost, then focus our vengance on those
> who have committed this awful crime while not allowing ourselves
> to succumb to the irrational hatred which drove those who we seek.
>
> If you have visited the web site this week, you have seen that the
> page background is black and that our flag stands proudly at the
> top. The page will remain in this state until those who committed
> this attrocity have been eradicated and no longer pose a threat.
>
> Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
Very nice al
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:20 PM
Subject: RNCP
> If your plane has a sticker on it that reads;HEY OSAMA GO #&*# YO MAMA,you
> might be a RED-NECKED COMMANDER PILOT!!!! AL
>
>
> HEY MILT, At least I cleaned it up for the ladies!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Time sheets and narratives |
Bill,
I have received only one narrative and a time sheet that was on a different version
than my MS Publisher. I sent you email immediately asking which version of
MS Publisher you have so that I can upgrade or that you can upgrade, so that
I can get your time in the system every day.
Please send your timesheets and narratives for the last few days today.
Thanks
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Time sheets and narratives |
Ek het gedink dat dit goed is as jy gecopy is op Bill se email. Ek is seker ek
het die email vir Chris opgestel. Sal gou check en jou laat weet.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff
To: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:29 AM
Subject: RE: Time sheets and narratives
Moet ek ook hierdie email kry? En nog een ding, is daar al 'n email vir Chris
op gestel wat ek can gebruik om na hom toe te stuur?
Theunis
-----Original Message-----
From: Nico van Niekerk [mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:23 AM
To: bill(at)cybersuperstore.com
Subject: Time sheets and narratives
Bill,
I have received only one narrative and a time sheet that was on a different
version than my MS Publisher. I sent you email immediately asking which version
of MS Publisher you have so that I can upgrade or that you can upgrade, so
that I can get your time in the system every day.
Please send your timesheets and narratives for the last few days today.
Thanks
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [10th AF Discussion] [[B-24] [This says itall...]] |
AMEN. Nico, AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!.....jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Time sheets and narratives |
Ek het die emails opgestel maar blykbaar nie uitgestuur nie. Sorry daarvoor.
As jy aan Chris email stuur gebruik calstartcb(at)cybersuperstore.com en jy sal ook
gecopy word.
As jy aan Larry email stuur gebruik calstartlw(at)cybersuperstore.com, Jy is hierop
ook gecopy.
Stuur asb. ook vir my copies van die email van die afgelope paar dae.
Dankie
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff
To: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:29 AM
Subject: RE: Time sheets and narratives
Moet ek ook hierdie email kry? En nog een ding, is daar al 'n email vir Chris
op gestel wat ek can gebruik om na hom toe te stuur?
Theunis
-----Original Message-----
From: Nico van Niekerk [mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:23 AM
To: bill(at)cybersuperstore.com
Subject: Time sheets and narratives
Bill,
I have received only one narrative and a time sheet that was on a different
version than my MS Publisher. I sent you email immediately asking which version
of MS Publisher you have so that I can upgrade or that you can upgrade, so
that I can get your time in the system every day.
Please send your timesheets and narratives for the last few days today.
Thanks
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | test email address |
Larry
I have set up an email address that our staff should use to send you email, which
will automatically copy me on all correspondence. Would you please hit reply
and send this back so that I know that you are receiving it correctly.
Thanks
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 09/14/01 02:32:18 Pacific Daylight Time, N700PF(at)aol.com
writes:
> How about Columbia, SC? Eagle Aviation has just become the newest Commander
> service center. Might be a nice place. Comments??
Nice option. We (I) don't know anything about them -- one reason they might
want to sponsor.
My first question is "do they have any piston-model background?" My second
question is "do they want piston-model business?"
I ask this because, as a new Service Center, their focus is most likely the
turbine models.
That being said, it's a definitely worth a look.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: List status - please read |
In a message dated 9/13/2001 11:16:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
>
> If you have visited the web site this week, you have seen that the
> page background is black and that our flag stands proudly at the
> top. The page will remain in this state until those who committed
> this attrocity have been eradicated and no longer pose a threat.
>
> Chris
>
CHRIS - YOU DID A GREAT JOB WITH THE FLAG ON THE WEBSITE THANKS -- JIM
FURLONG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
It is nice and Central in the East.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: N700PF(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:19 AM
Subject: 2002 flyin
HI KIDS............
How about Columbia, SC? Eagle Aviation has just become the newest
Commander service center. Might be a nice place. Comments?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [10th AF Discussion] [[B-24] [This says it all...]] |
ONE SOLUTION TO OUR CRISIS ----- FIND THE MONEY -- BIN LADIN KEEPS IT
SOMEWHERE - HIS FATHER ALSO --- BANKS. FIND IT AND SEIZE IT.
SUPPORT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - ON MONDAY BUY STOCK AND HOLD IT.
OUR BEST REVENGE IS A QUICK RECOVERY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Next year is a long way off.Lucille and I missed this years get together but
rest assured,if trhe Ole Gal and I have'nt done a suicide run(don't worry
I'll cancel my insurance)we will be seeing ya'll before you know it.Just a
thought,but if you want a site that is totally Commander friendly,I sugest
we check with Harry Merritt and his little strip and really have a piston
friendly good time.Oh by the way,Harry can get a good set up for us in the
Bahamas! BIG AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
Allen, You have out done yourself.
Amen,
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:18 PM
Subject: RNCP
> If your plane has a sticker on it that reads;HEY OSAMA GO #&*# YO MAMA,you
> might be a RED-NECKED COMMANDER PILOT!!!! AL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | In case you missed this............ |
-----Original Message-----
From:
Lori Jorgensen [mailto:lorijor(at)microsoft.com]
Sent:
Friday, September 14, 2001 2:46 PM
To:
jilo.morgans(at)verizon.net
Subject:
FW: In case you missed this............
A Miami Herald editorial worth reading....
Leonard Pitts Jr.
Published Wednesday, September 12, 2001
---------------------------------------
We'll go forward from this moment.
It's my job to have something to say.
They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the
American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting
disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that
seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering:
You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard.
What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World
Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn?
Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.
Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.
Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.
Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a
family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family
nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional
energy on pop cultural minutiae-a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's
misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready
availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we
walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are
fundamentally decent, though-peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to
know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of
us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.
Some people-you, perhaps-think that any or all of this makes us weak.
You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot
be measured by arsenals.
IN PAIN
Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still
grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to
make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some
Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel.
Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final
death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of
terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of
the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us
fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last
time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt
and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible
in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any
suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I
think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with
dread of the future.
In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers
pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be
done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security,
misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment
sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.
THE STEEL IN US
You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our
character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this
day, the family's bickering is put on hold.
As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we
will rise in defense of all that we cherish.
So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that
maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the
case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You
don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know
what you just started.
But you're about to learn.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
For those of you to young to remember,and those of us from the TET Offensive
and the Gulf War,and every thing in between,Look up thge old record by Lee
Greenwood who still is proud to be an American and yA'LL,sing along,because
you can bet your ASS this RED-NECKED VOLUNTEER for TENNESSEE will be singing
his off. MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!! AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Well Phil I think it's great that you Brits, as our best ally in Europe,
stand beside us 100%.
However when you said that: "Americans had to stop thinking we were the
greatest nation on earth because we PATENTLY were not" Well you pretty much
lost any chance that I would ever stop to piss you if you were on fire.
That little comment might just get me kicked off the chat list. If so then I
shall join another, one where the DEFENDERS OF THE FREE WORLD ARE TREATED
WITH A LITTLE MORE RESPECT.
I am pretty sure that we have even defended you a time or two as well.
Not to long after we had to fight a war with you on our own soil to be in
control of our own country.
Let me quote Lt. Col Eddy Baur from The History of World War Two.
Page 197 Paragraph 2.
From March 11, 1941 untill August 31st, 1945 the United States disbursed by
way of the Lend-Lease Act 50.69 BILLION dollars, wich enabled the purchase
of, among other material, 17 MILLION Rifliles, 315,000 Artilllery Guns,
87,000 Tanks, 2,434,000 Motor Vehicles, and 296,000 planes. Such, strictly
in terms of equipment, was the contribtuion made to the combined victory of
the allied nations by the great American democracy.
50.69 BILLION in 1940's dollars, and you still have the audacity to kick me
in the teath by saying that we are "PATENTLY" not the greatest nation on
earth.
Please understand that if I encountered ANYONE who was actually on fire I
would aid and assist them. That is a very old saying that I learned from my
father when he wished to express disgust.
While alot of what you said was good, just, right, politically correct, etc.
my response was fueled by someone who had just sat down with a cup of coffee
to watch "Good Morning America" on T.V. and spilled it all in his lap a 767
slammed into the largest symbol of freedom and capitalism in the world. Then
you told me point blank that I was "PATENTLY" not the best.
Have a nice a day think about this. We came toyour aid several times. We
came to the aid of France and bailed them out of the Korean war. Whe fought
the Vietnam war on the behalf of freedom, and the defense of Communism.
I MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIASED, BUT I HAPPEN TO THINK THE WE ARE, AND WILL
CONTINUE TO PATENTLY BE THE GREATEST, STRONGEST, LARGEST DEFENDER OF FREEDOM
IN THE WORLD.
GOD BLESS ALL AND GOOD NIGHT.
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
I just heard the first airplane fly over my house in far too
long.... That simple sound was very meaningful to me as it provided
proof that we've not caved in to fear and are slowly returning to
at least some bit of normalacy. We GA folks will still have to put
some part of our personal lives on hold a bit longer until the
initial waves of paranoia begin to fade, but I guess that I can
deal with that knowing that my freedoms have not, and will not be
stripped away.
Everyone - interestingly, we've had a fair number of unsubscribers
from the list in the last two days....however, we've had a number of
new subscribers as well. Please welcome these new folks into our
little family here.
Also...and I'm sorry to have to even bring this up at such a time...
I would also like to re-itterate that you should all feel free to
discuss the current situation of the world here. That said, I ask
again that if you feel the need to express your angst that you keep
the target of your distress in mind. There is not a sole on this
list who does not feel some degree of outrage at what has happened,
but I will NOT allow any individual to begin flaming anyone else on
this list. It is obvious to me that many folks have a difficult time
expressing their thoughts in writing which leads to possible miss-
understandings. If you take offense to something that is posted here,
hit the button, but don't begin a fight. Take just a moment
to consider what one of the goals of terrorism is before you respond...
If this list is meaningful to you and you value your friends here
make postings of value - I will have zero tollerance for bickering.
Finally,
many thanks to those of you outside the good 'ol US of A who have
taken the time to show your support and offer your prayers. This
means a lot to many of us!
Sincerely,
Chris Schuermann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Josh Garfield <JGarfie1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | New member "new" Aircraft 1959 560E ser # 709 |
Hello Group,
My name is Joshua Garfield and I reside in Tampa FL. I am new to the chat group.
I like everyone else am totally shocked and saddened by the events of this
week. I hope you do not think it inappropriate for me to ask "normal" questions
about the AC but I think that we MUST try to return to our lives as quickly
as we can otherwise the terrorists will have won.
I am 42 YO and have been flying for about 23 years. I have about 1710 hours flying
time. I have owned a 1968 C-172 for about 14 years now and I am currently
going through a firewall forward engine overhaul. (Ah the joys of airplane ownership!).
I am based at Vandenberg airport in Tampa FL. The engine was done
at ZEPHYR engines over in Zephyrhills FL about 20 miles away and is being R+R
by the maintenance shop at Vandenberg. (Reliable Aviation). I had the 0-320 150
HP Lycoming modified using a RAM STC so that it will now produce 160HP and
I am also adding a power flow exhaust system that is designed to add another 22
HP. I expect this project to be done in about 2-3 more weeks and then I will
be flying again, finally! Any questions about this project let me know I
have learned a lot. I intend to keep this airplane even if I do get the Aero Commander.
Now on to the subject of your group. I am about 90% sure that I am going to go
into a 1/3 partnership in a 1959 560E AERO COMMANDER Ser# 709. This aircraft is
also be based at Vandenberg (in Tampa FL) and will continue to be based there
for the partnership.
Aircraft details:
1959 560E AERO COMMANDER Ser# 709 N3846C
New paint and interior, 1150 hours RE, 250 LE, 3 blade props, 295 hp go-480 engines,
new IFR GPS (GARMIN 430 I think) props about 250 hours each. Generators
and hydraulic pumps in each engine. Only about 2550 total time on the airframe
with only 3 owners since new. I completed an AOPA title search and everything
came up clean, no damage history. The cost of my 1/3 of the partnership would
be $26,000. I estimate the value of the aircraft to be about $80,000 to $90,000.
The SPAR ad has been done according to the owners but I have not personally
checked the log books.
The other two partners in the group seem like very good people. One is 70 YO a
Multi engine flight instructor, former Captain of the Kitty Hawk Aircraft Carrier
and former Airport FBO owner, the other is 42 YO and owns a commercial seafood
distributor here in Tampa.
I have learned a lot about Aero Commanders since I started to research this purchase
in mid August, much of it from the AeroCommander.com web site but I still
need to learn a lot more. I got my Multi engine / Commercial / instrument ticket
back in 1991 and have started to take more multi engine training in a travel
air to get current. I also have about 3 hours flying time in this Aero Commander
and it does seem to fly very nicely.
My questions for all of you are:
- What do you think of this arrangement / partnership for the Aero Commander?
Am I crazy to do this? Crazy not to? Do you think the price is ok?
- Do any of you know someone a reasonable distance from Tampa that could do a pre-buy
inspection on an Aero Commander? My FBO is not familiar enough with the
aircraft to do a good job on one.
- Any other constructive comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
- Is it true that the props need to be OH every 500 hours?
As you can see I am not a man of few words. I do appreciate all of you reading
this... (if you got this far) and any input you have would be great.
Thanks very much, Josh
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/14/01 10:06:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
> I just heard the first airplane fly over my house in far too
> long.... That simple sound was very meaningful to me as it provided
> proof that we've not caved in to fear and are slowly returning to
> at least some bit of normalcy. We GA folks will still have to put
> some part of our personal lives on hold a bit longer until the
> initial waves of paranoia begin to fade, but I guess that I can
> deal with that knowing that my freedoms have not, and will not be
>
HI KIDS.............
It has been a long three days. While on the one hand I feel, as
most of you do, that this terrible act mist be accounted for, quickly. On
the other hand I really miss flying and I to have heard airplanes once again
flying overhead, even some piston twins. It is time to lift the GA ban and
begin the healing process by returning our lives to some form of normalcy.
The terrible task of recovering the dead will go on for months but we as a
nation must get back on our feet and as pilots, back into our airplanes.
As of this evening, GA is slowly coming back on line. Yesterday part
135 airplanes and today part 91 IFR. I cant wait to fly again. I plan to be
the first departure from 1W1. The best revenge is to live well!!!!
I pray for the families of the lost........................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
I heard a rumor from the FBO I fly out of, I am not sure how acurate this is.
Remember this is just a rumor, and I have not been able to confirm this through
the FSDO, who has been too busy to chat with me.
I heard that the FAA is seriously considering removing the Recreational and Private
Tickets, and basically a new pilot would not be certified to fly until here
were Private IFR certified. Also along with that I heard that no flight un
the US will be conducted unless on an IFR flight plan.
If this is true, then our airspace will be as regulated as many other coutries
airspace is.
Does anyone have confirmation or information that this rumor is false?
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: notice
In a message dated 9/14/01 10:06:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
writes:
I just heard the first airplane fly over my house in far too
long.... That simple sound was very meaningful to me as it provided
proof that we've not caved in to fear and are slowly returning to
at least some bit of normalcy. We GA folks will still have to put
some part of our personal lives on hold a bit longer until the
initial waves of paranoia begin to fade, but I guess that I can
deal with that knowing that my freedoms have not, and will not be
stripped away.
HI KIDS.............
It has been a long three days. While on the one hand I feel, as
most of you do, that this terrible act mist be accounted for, quickly. On the
other hand I really miss flying and I to have heard airplanes once again flying
overhead, even some piston twins. It is time to lift the GA ban and begin
the healing process by returning our lives to some form of normalcy. The terrible
task of recovering the dead will go on for months but we as a nation must
get back on our feet and as pilots, back into our airplanes.
As of this evening, GA is slowly coming back on line. Yesterday part 135
airplanes and today part 91 IFR. I cant wait to fly again. I plan to be the
first departure from 1W1. The best revenge is to live well!!!!
I pray for the families of the lost........................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New member "new" Aircraft 1959 560E ser # 709 |
Hi Josh & the Group!
If anyone doubts what Josh said, that 560E-709 has had "only 3 owners since new",
it is amazingly true!
Certificated on January 12th, 1959, it was sold to distributor Downtown Airpark,
also on January 12th. They sold it to Moon Distributors Inc., of Little Rock,
Arkansas on January 24th. Retained by them for over 24 years, it was sold to
Stanley Woodward Jnr of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on September 23rd, 1983. Current
owner is Robert E Babis, who purchased it on December 12th, 1999.
That's one Commander who didn't trouble the inputter much work on the database!
Josh, I'm sure you will get some valuable input from guys on the chatlist, but
hope you'll be joining our ranks as a Commander owner pretty soon.
Very Best Regards,
Barry Collman
UK Commanderland rep.
----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Garfield
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:17 AM
Subject: New member "new" Aircraft 1959 560E ser # 709
Hello Group,
My name is Joshua Garfield and I reside in Tampa FL. I am new to the chat group.
I like everyone else am totally shocked and saddened by the events of this
week. I hope you do not think it inappropriate for me to ask "normal" questions
about the AC but I think that we MUST try to return to our lives as quickly
as we can otherwise the terrorists will have won.
I am 42 YO and have been flying for about 23 years. I have about 1710 hours flying
time. I have owned a 1968 C-172 for about 14 years now and I am currently
going through a firewall forward engine overhaul. (Ah the joys of airplane ownership!).
I am based at Vandenberg airport in Tampa FL. The engine was done
at ZEPHYR engines over in Zephyrhills FL about 20 miles away and is being R+R
by the maintenance shop at Vandenberg. (Reliable Aviation). I had the 0-320
150 HP Lycoming modified using a RAM STC so that it will now produce 160HP and
I am also adding a power flow exhaust system that is designed to add another
22 HP. I expect this project to be done in about 2-3 more weeks and then I will
be flying again, finally! Any questions about this project let me know
I have learned a lot. I intend to keep this airplane even if I do get the Aero
Commander.
Now on to the subject of your group. I am about 90% sure that I am going to go
into a 1/3 partnership in a 1959 560E AERO COMMANDER Ser# 709. This aircraft
is also be based at Vandenberg (in Tampa FL) and will continue to be based there
for the partnership.
Aircraft details:
1959 560E AERO COMMANDER Ser# 709 N3846C
New paint and interior, 1150 hours RE, 250 LE, 3 blade props, 295 hp go-480 engines,
new IFR GPS (GARMIN 430 I think) props about 250 hours each. Generators
and hydraulic pumps in each engine. Only about 2550 total time on the airframe
with only 3 owners since new. I completed an AOPA title search and everything
came up clean, no damage history. The cost of my 1/3 of the partnership
would be $26,000. I estimate the value of the aircraft to be about $80,000 to
$90,000. The SPAR ad has been done according to the owners but I have not personally
checked the log books.
The other two partners in the group seem like very good people. One is 70 YO
a Multi engine flight instructor, former Captain of the Kitty Hawk Aircraft Carrier
and former Airport FBO owner, the other is 42 YO and owns a commercial seafood
distributor here in Tampa.
I have learned a lot about Aero Commanders since I started to research this purchase
in mid August, much of it from the AeroCommander.com web site but I still
need to learn a lot more. I got my Multi engine / Commercial / instrument
ticket back in 1991 and have started to take more multi engine training in a
travel air to get current. I also have about 3 hours flying time in this Aero
Commander and it does seem to fly very nicely.
My questions for all of you are:
- What do you think of this arrangement / partnership for the Aero Commander?
Am I crazy to do this? Crazy not to? Do you think the price is ok?
- Do any of you know someone a reasonable distance from Tampa that could do a
pre-buy inspection on an Aero Commander? My FBO is not familiar enough with
the aircraft to do a good job on one.
- Any other constructive comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
- Is it true that the props need to be OH every 500 hours?
As you can see I am not a man of few words. I do appreciate all of you reading
this... (if you got this far) and any input you have would be great.
Thanks very much, Josh
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
Sir Barry,
WELL PUT!
I must say that I applaud President Bush in his approach to the problem facing
the entire world. Let us ALL unite to squash these cowardly bastards!
If you wish to abet, aid, or harbor them, let it be known that the rest of the
WORLD WILL NOT be able to distinguish you from this SCUM OF THE EARTH! You may
be able to run, but you WON"T BE ABLE TO HIDE!
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
Sounds like an old plan that some in the FAA have been kicking around for a long
time. Someone gets it out and dusts it off everytime there is a GA/Airline accident.
I really dont think it has much of a chance of becoming a reality.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Woodley
To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com ; chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: notice
I heard a rumor from the FBO I fly out of, I am not sure how acurate this is.
Remember this is just a rumor, and I have not been able to confirm this through
the FSDO, who has been too busy to chat with me.
I heard that the FAA is seriously considering removing the Recreational and Private
Tickets, and basically a new pilot would not be certified to fly until
here were Private IFR certified. Also along with that I heard that no flight
un the US will be conducted unless on an IFR flight plan.
If this is true, then our airspace will be as regulated as many other coutries
airspace is.
Does anyone have confirmation or information that this rumor is false?
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: notice
In a message dated 9/14/01 10:06:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
writes:
I just heard the first airplane fly over my house in far too
long.... That simple sound was very meaningful to me as it provided
proof that we've not caved in to fear and are slowly returning to
at least some bit of normalcy. We GA folks will still have to put
some part of our personal lives on hold a bit longer until the
initial waves of paranoia begin to fade, but I guess that I can
deal with that knowing that my freedoms have not, and will not be
stripped away.
HI KIDS.............
It has been a long three days. While on the one hand I feel, as
most of you do, that this terrible act mist be accounted for, quickly. On the
other hand I really miss flying and I to have heard airplanes once again flying
overhead, even some piston twins. It is time to lift the GA ban and begin
the healing process by returning our lives to some form of normalcy. The terrible
task of recovering the dead will go on for months but we as a nation must
get back on our feet and as pilots, back into our airplanes.
As of this evening, GA is slowly coming back on line. Yesterday part
135 airplanes and today part 91 IFR. I cant wait to fly again. I plan to be
the first departure from 1W1. The best revenge is to live well!!!!
I pray for the families of the lost........................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Josh Garfield <JGarfie1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
I am sure there will be a lot of rumors going around so I would not worry too much
about anything until you hear it for sure. One great source of info is the
AOPA web site. www.aopa.org. The GA system is still closed to VFR flights and
only IFR is permitted at this time. VFR will open later this weekend we hope!
I do fear that GA flying in this country will never return to the way it was before
9-11-2001. The $100 hamburger flights that we as GA pilots love and have taken
for granted may become a thing of the past but only time will tell. The non pilot
community does not understand aviation in general and I think there will
be a lot of knee jerk reactions that harm GA, however flying groups like AOPA
and EAA will fight to preserve our flying freedoms in the USA. Already we GA
pilots are paying the price when this whole thing was caused not by GA but hijacked
commercial air carrier aircraft and yet VFR GA is the last segment of the
system not flying.
The US was one of the few countries where flying was still somewhat affordable,
in fact I was always amazed that more people in this country did not take the
opportunity to learn to fly, simply because they could and it was affordable,
legal and of course fun. If VFR does become a thing of the past it would have
a devastating impact on GA and many FBOs, repair stations, and airports would
close.
I would sum up by saying that for now we should just stay calm, and hope that cooler
heads will prevail. In the mean time look at the AOPA web site for news
and frequent updates on these topics and if you are not a member join! They are
one of the few organizations that fight for our rights as pilots.
Josh.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Woodley
To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com ; chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: notice
I heard a rumor from the FBO I fly out of, I am not sure how acurate this is.
Remember this is just a rumor, and I have not been able to confirm this through
the FSDO, who has been too busy to chat with me.
I heard that the FAA is seriously considering removing the Recreational and Private
Tickets, and basically a new pilot would not be certified to fly until
here were Private IFR certified. Also along with that I heard that no flight
un the US will be conducted unless on an IFR flight plan.
If this is true, then our airspace will be as regulated as many other coutries
airspace is.
Does anyone have confirmation or information that this rumor is false?
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: notice
In a message dated 9/14/01 10:06:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
writes:
I just heard the first airplane fly over my house in far too
long.... That simple sound was very meaningful to me as it provided
proof that we've not caved in to fear and are slowly returning to
at least some bit of normalcy. We GA folks will still have to put
some part of our personal lives on hold a bit longer until the
initial waves of paranoia begin to fade, but I guess that I can
deal with that knowing that my freedoms have not, and will not be
stripped away.
HI KIDS.............
It has been a long three days. While on the one hand I feel, as
most of you do, that this terrible act mist be accounted for, quickly. On the
other hand I really miss flying and I to have heard airplanes once again flying
overhead, even some piston twins. It is time to lift the GA ban and begin
the healing process by returning our lives to some form of normalcy. The terrible
task of recovering the dead will go on for months but we as a nation must
get back on our feet and as pilots, back into our airplanes.
As of this evening, GA is slowly coming back on line. Yesterday part
135 airplanes and today part 91 IFR. I cant wait to fly again. I plan to be
the first departure from 1W1. The best revenge is to live well!!!!
I pray for the families of the lost........................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
I've found the following resources to have regular updates
which might be helpful to all pilots:
http://www.aopa.org
http://www.nbaa.org
http://www.faa.gov
http://www.dot.gov
http://www.aero-news.net
It sounds like our buddy Phil at AOPA is keeping an active
dialog going with the powers that be. AOPA requests that members
NOT try to contact various gov't entities at this time out of concern
of a "backlash" against the GA population.
Be patient....
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Online comments |
Paul,
That was an unfortunate but "revealing" choice of words by Phil. But one
thing that does makes America the best country in the world is our freedom
of speech. Yeah, we can say things in America that would get our heads
separated from our bodies in many places in this world. In some instances
that freedom causes us pain and troubles but it's not worth giving up.
We've heard a lot about resiliency in the last four days. Well, this is
just another instance where we can demonstrate it. Phil is entitled to his
opinion just as you are. Thats what helps to make America as great as it
is. It takes a thick skin to be an American. God Bless us!
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:23 PM
Subject: Online comments
> Well Phil I think it's great that you Brits, as our best ally in Europe,
> stand beside us 100%.
>
> However when you said that: "Americans had to stop thinking we were the
> greatest nation on earth because we PATENTLY were not" Well you pretty
much
> lost any chance that I would ever stop to piss you if you were on fire.
>
> That little comment might just get me kicked off the chat list. If so
then I
> shall join another, one where the DEFENDERS OF THE FREE WORLD ARE TREATED
> WITH A LITTLE MORE RESPECT.
>
> I am pretty sure that we have even defended you a time or two as well.
> Not to long after we had to fight a war with you on our own soil to be in
> control of our own country.
>
> Let me quote Lt. Col Eddy Baur from The History of World War Two.
>
> Page 197 Paragraph 2.
>
> From March 11, 1941 untill August 31st, 1945 the United States disbursed
by
> way of the Lend-Lease Act 50.69 BILLION dollars, wich enabled the purchase
> of, among other material, 17 MILLION Rifliles, 315,000 Artilllery Guns,
> 87,000 Tanks, 2,434,000 Motor Vehicles, and 296,000 planes. Such,
strictly
> in terms of equipment, was the contribtuion made to the combined victory
of
> the allied nations by the great American democracy.
>
> 50.69 BILLION in 1940's dollars, and you still have the audacity to kick
me
> in the teath by saying that we are "PATENTLY" not the greatest nation on
> earth.
>
> Please understand that if I encountered ANYONE who was actually on fire I
> would aid and assist them. That is a very old saying that I learned from
my
> father when he wished to express disgust.
>
> While alot of what you said was good, just, right, politically correct,
etc.
> my response was fueled by someone who had just sat down with a cup of
coffee
> to watch "Good Morning America" on T.V. and spilled it all in his lap a
767
> slammed into the largest symbol of freedom and capitalism in the world.
Then
> you told me point blank that I was "PATENTLY" not the best.
>
> Have a nice a day think about this. We came toyour aid several times. We
> came to the aid of France and bailed them out of the Korean war. Whe
fought
> the Vietnam war on the behalf of freedom, and the defense of Communism.
>
> I MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIASED, BUT I HAPPEN TO THINK THE WE ARE, AND WILL
> CONTINUE TO PATENTLY BE THE GREATEST, STRONGEST, LARGEST DEFENDER OF
FREEDOM
> IN THE WORLD.
>
> GOD BLESS ALL AND GOOD NIGHT.
>
> Paul Reason
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Haven't heard that rumor. Thats got to be the stupidest FAA idea they'll ever
dream up if its true. Talk about starting a war..................Whew
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Woodley
To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com ; chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: notice
I heard a rumor from the FBO I fly out of, I am not sure how acurate this is.
Remember this is just a rumor, and I have not been able to confirm this through
the FSDO, who has been too busy to chat with me.
I heard that the FAA is seriously considering removing the Recreational and Private
Tickets, and basically a new pilot would not be certified to fly until
here were Private IFR certified. Also along with that I heard that no flight
un the US will be conducted unless on an IFR flight plan.
If this is true, then our airspace will be as regulated as many other coutries
airspace is.
Does anyone have confirmation or information that this rumor is false?
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: notice
In a message dated 9/14/01 10:06:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
writes:
I just heard the first airplane fly over my house in far too
long.... That simple sound was very meaningful to me as it provided
proof that we've not caved in to fear and are slowly returning to
at least some bit of normalcy. We GA folks will still have to put
some part of our personal lives on hold a bit longer until the
initial waves of paranoia begin to fade, but I guess that I can
deal with that knowing that my freedoms have not, and will not be
stripped away.
HI KIDS.............
It has been a long three days. While on the one hand I feel, as
most of you do, that this terrible act mist be accounted for, quickly. On the
other hand I really miss flying and I to have heard airplanes once again flying
overhead, even some piston twins. It is time to lift the GA ban and begin
the healing process by returning our lives to some form of normalcy. The terrible
task of recovering the dead will go on for months but we as a nation must
get back on our feet and as pilots, back into our airplanes.
As of this evening, GA is slowly coming back on line. Yesterday part
135 airplanes and today part 91 IFR. I cant wait to fly again. I plan to be
the first departure from 1W1. The best revenge is to live well!!!!
I pray for the families of the lost........................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <thall5(at)kc.rr.com> |
Chris and Commanderland,
Yesterday, I too saw the first airplane in the sky since Tuesday. It was a
Twin Commander.
I was trying to get back to business by looking a some used tanker trailers
for a customer and a Central Air Twin Commander was off flying cargo again.
Once my business was concluded, I had to stop by MKC, Downtown Kansas City.
Everything that Central Air owned was in the air except two. Stopping in
the office, I asked what was flying. They had started flying the day before
as a Part 135 operation and Part 91 was now open to IFR traffic only, point
to point. NO VFR.
And Yes I did get the opportunity to meet John Towner the owner of Central
Air. This guy has some interesting stories to tell and we have got to get
him to our next TCFG meeting. He is a great fan of the Twin Commanders.
I have been very concerned about the health of General Aviation if the
Government views us as a security risk and not allow us to fly. In watching
the AOPA, NBAA, and other news, it was apparent those above Transportation
Sec. Manetta were viewing GA as uncontrolled. Are there going to be F-16
s sitting on Ready 5 to shoot down GA if we fly???
There were stories told of F-16s forcing down a Part 135 flight because the
flight plan had an N number that was one number off the aircrafts N
number?? Are we going to die because of a typo???
The solution is not to put police cars on the end of every runway and
draconian flight restrictions. Our government must be told that we can
police ourselves and we want a safe flying environment. The flying
community is very small and we will know who is safe and who is not. These
restrictions are coming from those that are not a part of our industry and
do not understand.
Welcome to the list Josh. Sounds like a great AC560. Sounds like you are a
More Power is better kind of guy. You will love the sound of a 560. One
of the major themes of this list in the past has been Proper Training,
type specific training, learn to fly geared engines training, never stop
training, multi-engine training, and more training. This is a list for
talking about Commanders and yes there is a great Commander guy in Florida.
He is Harry Merritt, avtec(at)scci.net . He is on the
list too.
To address some of your question, no, your are not crazy! $26,000 for a
twin commander is very reasonable. Just look a Trade-a-Plane for prices of
a 500S for $325,000. The 560 will carry the same amount of people at the
same speed burning about the same amount of fuel. As far as joint ownership
goes, this is the trend in all of aviation up to the big jets. Net Jets is
just a big club or shared ownership. I have been a member of several clubs
or partnerships. Pick your partners well and have a good detailed
partnership agreement with an exit clause. Remember, the written agreement
is there for when you do not agree. Run your partnership like a real
business, it is.
Yes, Chris, we will stop ranting at each other, but if we cannot fly our
Twin Commanders, I reserve the right to rant at my government and encourage
my flying friends to rant and rave as well. Besides, I cannot wait to read
what Big Al is going to come up with next!!! He is priceless.
Yes, Chris, I will stop now.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Barry Hancock wrote:
>restricting VFR traffic does not provide any
> added level of security.
Obviously, most everyone here would agree with that statement,
but I can see the opposing viewpoint - nobody knows where VFR
traffic is or where it's going. For my 2 cents, I wouldn't be
a bit surprised to see the FAA allow VFR flights to resume next
week....BUT....only with a filed flight plan. That would seem
to be one way to allow the FAA to keep an eye on things...
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 09/15/01 05:15:53 Pacific Daylight Time,
woodlema(at)intrex.net writes:
>
Easy, now.
There is so much speculation and misinformation flying about right now, I'd
not get too wound up about any notice about private pilots / rec pilots being
culled from the herd.
The ban of VFR flights is a defacto elimination of this group -- but a check
on the NBAA and especially the AOPA site does not mention any intentional
grounding of this group.
Of course, who knows what national security agencies are sensing as a threat.
Be calm. This is a good time to wash and wax our airplanes.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Feelings from the UK |
In a message dated 09/15/01 06:06:19 Pacific Daylight Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
> Those Countries that don't subscribe to the coalition will forfeit their
> right to be a part of the future World Atlas, and will be removed from it
>
Thank you, Sir Barry for your eloquent post. May I quote you, as above?
Brilliant line.
Yes, we're spinning a bit here in the Colonies. As you point out, we now
live as Great Britain has been living, as well as Israel and many other
countries that have had the spectre of terrorism as part of the landscape.
We will adapt, prevail and get back to life as we knew it -- with a few
changes.
As far as who is the greatest nation on Earth ... well, I like to think that
the U.S. and Australia ARE Great Britian (with a bit of Spain, Germany,
Scandanavia, many others, and just the smallest dash of France) -- but with
much larger back yards.
Thanks for giving us the great start, to become what we've grown to be.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New member "new" Aircraft 1959 560E ser # 709 |
HI JOSH..............And welcome!! It sounds like you may have found a great
old Commander. The 560E is one of the best all-round Commanders out there.
To the propeller question. Yes, they will need to be overhauled each 250 or
500 hrs depending on the model of the hub. (if you get the numbers I can tell
you what hubs you have) There is an STC to install later model propellers
that will eliminate the AD. There are also a couple of other ADs that are
worh confirming compliance, The flap pulleys and the old bobweight. Both are
probably done.
There are a couple of guys I would strongly suggest for a pre-buy
Morris Kernick, Commander Services 510-783-1039 He is in CA but worth the $$
to get him out there. The other is Commander Aero, Gary Kromer 937-885-5580
They are in Dayton, OH. DO NOT BUY YOUR FIRST COMMANDER WITHOUT A PRE-BUY!!!
You should have no trouble flying and enjoying your new Commander,
they fly GREAT!! Good Luck and welcome Jim Metzger (capt jimbob) Director,
Twin Commander Flight Group
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
If VFR does become a thing of the past it would have a devastating impact on
GA and many FBOs, repair stations, and airports would close.
One thing we all need to remember is that the vast majority of GA traffic is
VFR. The vast majority of pilots are not IFR rated, including myself
(though we should be). Our country will not be intimidated into taking
away the very freedoms we have fought over 200 years to protect.
To be sure, it will take time for things to return to normal, but
restricting VFR traffic does not provide any added level of security.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Hey Gang,Just think about it this way,we're going to squash the S.O.Bs. that
are trying to take our freedoms away,and yes one of those is the ability to
own and fly your private plane.The rules might change but the FREEDOM won't
!!!! Allen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Found another 520! |
Barry...
Located a sweet little 520 over at Cushing, Oklahoma:
http://www.c2-tech.com/~chris/jimf/r0100219.jpg
http://www.c2-tech.com/~chris/jimf/r0100218.jpg
http://www.c2-tech.com/~chris/jimf/r0100217.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/15/2001 11:27:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
>
> Barry Hancock wrote:
> >restricting VFR traffic does not provide any
> > added level of security.
>
> Obviously, most everyone here would agree with that statement,
> but I can see the opposing viewpoint - nobody knows where VFR
> traffic is or where it's going. For my 2 cents, I wouldn't be
> a bit surprised to see the FAA allow VFR flights to resume next
> week....BUT....only with a filed flight plan. That would seem
> to be one way to allow the FAA to keep an eye on things...
>
> Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
>
> Chris
>
ALL OF THE AIRLINERS INVOLVED TUESDAY DEPARTED ON IFR FLIGHT PLANS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Flying Again |
Hi Tylor!
Well you can make that your mission for the next Fly-In, to get John Towner along
to it.
I had the extreme pleasure to meet John when I was over in the US late last year.
A really nice guy, who as Tylor says, is a great fan of the Commanders. He
has to be, with 30+ in his fleet. He's so proud of them, and each one is immaculate.
And, yes, I'm sure he's got some great stories.
Don't disappoint us Tylor!!
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Tylor Hall
To: Commanderchat@Skymaster. C2-Tech. Com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:53 PM
Subject: Flying Again
Chris and Commanderland,
Yesterday, I too saw the first airplane in the sky since Tuesday. It was a Twin
Commander.
I was trying to get back to business by looking a some used tanker trailers for
a customer and a Central Air Twin Commander was off flying cargo again.
Once my business was concluded, I had to stop by MKC, Downtown Kansas City.
Everything that Central Air owned was in the air except two. Stopping in the
office, I asked what was flying. They had started flying the day before as a
Part 135 operation and Part 91 was now open to IFR traffic only, point to point.
NO VFR.
And Yes I did get the opportunity to meet John Towner the owner of Central Air.
This guy has some interesting stories to tell and we have got to get him to
our next TCFG meeting. He is a great fan of the Twin Commanders.
I have been very concerned about the health of General Aviation if the Government
views us as a security risk and not allow us to fly. In watching the AOPA,
NBAA, and other news, it was apparent those above Transportation Sec. Manetta
were viewing GA as "uncontrolled". Are there going to be F-16's sitting on
"Ready 5" to shoot down GA if we fly???
There were stories told of F-16's forcing down a Part 135 flight because the
flight plan had an N number that was one number off the aircraft's N number??
Are we going to die because of a typo???
The solution is not to put police cars on the end of every runway and draconian
flight restrictions. Our government must be told that we can police ourselves
and we want a safe flying environment. The flying community is very small
and we will know who is safe and who is not. These restrictions are coming from
those that are not a part of our industry and do not understand.
Welcome to the list Josh. Sounds like a great AC560. Sounds like you are a "More
Power is better kind of guy". You will love the sound of a 560. One of
the major themes of this list in the past has been "Proper Training", type specific
training, learn to fly geared engines training, never stop training, multi-engine
training, and more training. This is a list for talking about Commanders
and yes there is a great Commander guy in Florida. He is Harry Merritt,
avtec(at)scci.net. He is on the list too.
To address some of your question, no, your are not crazy! $26,000 for a twin
commander is very reasonable. Just look a Trade-a-Plane for prices of a 500S
for $325,000. The 560 will carry the same amount of people at the same speed
burning about the same amount of fuel. As far as joint ownership goes, this
is the trend in all of aviation up to the big jets. Net Jets is just a big club
or shared ownership. I have been a member of several clubs or partnerships.
Pick your partners well and have a good detailed partnership agreement with
an exit clause. Remember, the written agreement is there for when you do not
agree. Run your partnership like a real business, it is.
Yes, Chris, we will stop ranting at each other, but if we cannot fly our Twin
Commanders, I reserve the right to rant at my government and encourage my flying
friends to rant and rave as well. Besides, I cannot wait to read what Big
Al is going to come up with next!!! He is priceless.
Yes, Chris, I will stop now.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New member "new" Aircraft 1959 560E ser # 709 |
In a message dated 9/15/2001 1:35:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com writes:
>
AMEN AMEN AMEN I HAVE LEARNED THE HARD AND EXPENSIVE WAY
JIM FURLONG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Everyone,
Time for my small and specific rant.
I don't understand why the government decides to pick on a portion of the
aviation world that had very limited involvement in this crisis. Does it
escape everyone's attention that the aircraft used as weapons were
commercial aircraft (not GA!) on approved IFR flight plans, and that didn't
help a bit? The closest GA came to having any responsibility is that GA
organizations trained the suicide pilots. Are we dense enough to believe
that if GA weren't available as a training medium the terrorists wouldn't
simply have applied their considerable resources to getting their pilots
757/767 type ratings? I truly wish these criminals were naive enough to have
used small GA airplanes to hit the towers--3000+ Americans might still be
alive at this moment.
I agree that safety is a concern. I was nervous this morning flying from JFK
(a day late, and a 14-hour journey) back to San Jose, CA. I was in lower
Manhattan when the attack occurred. Believe me, all day today I was wishing
that I was in my Aero Commander, where the possiblity of a hijack is so near
zero as to not be a consideration. Not to mention, I carry all manner of
sharp or heavy blunt objects aboard my airplane (the typical Commander tool
set ;-).
I think the FAA/DOT/US Gov's attitude towards GA at this time is inverted.
It may well be the GA infrastructure that will carry the torch of quick &
economical transportation from here on out. I know that many executives who
could never justify owning/operating a King Air/Citation/GIV etc. are now
looking very seriously at that option. I know that businessmen & women who 3
mos. ago would never consider flying in a small airplane are now evaluating
their future business travel needs, and small aircraft are going to suddenly
be appealing. Airlines are talking bankruptcy on the news, and where will
that leave travelers? I feel blessed to be able to own a Twin Commander. I
might be one of the few travelers in the coming months, provided the US Gov.
sees the light.
Please, let us fly. We are not the criminals. We, our tight-knit community,
are actually a line of defense against them.
A couple of notes from my 10-day visit to my former home in NY:
1) The country club near my grandparents' house in NY has 3 members missing.
2) The next door neighbor of ours in NY is an electrician in NYC. He had a
staff of 20 at the WTC. All are missing. His best friend's electrician co.
had a staff of 9. Only 4 have been heard from.
3) A young lady 3 houses down is a senior in high school. At her school
alone, 17 STUDENTS lost a parent. ONE high school.
I'd volunteer to do whatever was asked if it would help find a survivor in
the rubble, help save another American life, or help get some retribution.
God Bless America. My prayers are always with the victims & the victims'
families.
/John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
John Vormbaum wrote:
> I don't understand why the government decides to pick on a portion of the
> aviation world that had very limited involvement in this crisis.
I'm going to kick in my comments because (1), I think John is a great
guy
who clearly and reasonably stated his opinion, and (2), I've been
watching
this same thread turn into a flaming jihad against the FAA and our own
government on the Bellanca chatlist...
The reason that VFR flights are still restricted is quite simple....
the folks who have made this decision (namely the FBI and the CIA) are
not aviators and they don't understand GA. Lack of understanding plus
lack of control equals fear and distrust. The fine folks of our
goverment
are doing their best to protect the people of this country and one
action
that they have the power to undertake is to stop all flights. Obviously
a 757 full of fuel poses substantially more risk than a typical GA
aircraft, but as we saw in Oklahoma City, a small truck full of
explosives
can do quite a bit. No doubt the "feds" feel that they now have some
degree of control over those Commercial airplanes - they have armed
agents
aboard and are screening everything that goes onto or out of the
aircraft.
The sad reality is that GA could and does pose a potential for risk.
Even
though we're not talking about the potential for massive distruction,
the
possibility does exist for the same thing to happen on a smaller scale
and
the FBI knows it. At this time, there is nothing keeping another
fruitcake
from stealing your Commander and loading it full of explosives (or God
help
us all - biological agents) and delivering it anywhere. WE know that a
flight restriction NOTAM won't solve that, but the (unfounded) knowledge
that "little airplanes aren't allowed to fly right now" is surely
soothing
to the non-aviation world...
Lets all continue to support our leaders and pray for them to make wise
decisions....even though we may not all agree with every choice they
make.
Chris Schuermann
PS: John - my thoughts are with you. It must have been quite
traumatic to have been that close to the attack.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
From: Furlong5(at)aol.com
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:20:17 -0400 (EDT)
To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com, commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: notice
In a message dated 9/15/2001 11:27:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
Barry Hancock wrote:
>restricting VFR traffic does not provide any
> added level of security.
Obviously, most everyone here would agree with that statement,
but I can see the opposing viewpoint - nobody knows where VFR
traffic is or where it's going. For my 2 cents, I wouldn't be
a bit surprised to see the FAA allow VFR flights to resume next
week....BUT....only with a filed flight plan. That would seem
to be one way to allow the FAA to keep an eye on things...
I agree that is the most probable short term solution. Ultimately, HOWEVER,
we are no more a threat to mass destruction than a Ryder van. In the long
run, things will be pretty close to the way they were before for us. Once
Delta Force has had it's fun for a couple of years. Me thinks there is not
a more motivated, focused, inspired group in the world right now than our
Delta Force and Spec. Ops. guys....
As for filing flight plans....look at it as sacrificing 10 minutes of your
total flight time. Or, as my instructor told me, "if you don't have time to
file a flight plan, you don't have time to fly."
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/15/01 4:37:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Furlong5(at)aol.com
writes:
> ALL OF THE AIRLINERS INVOLVED TUESDAY DEPARTED ON IFR FLIGHT PLANS
I thought I was the only guy who noticed!! Once again, we, GA, are being
squished. I was certain that the IFR flights would be allowed quickly, as
all the "high rollers" were not crazy about jetting around in a sewer tube
full of crying babies while their 35 million dollar G-5 kept the asphalt
shaded. I also predict that when we are released, it will be only
"point-to-point" with flight following and a discreet TX code. Man I hope I
am wrong but I bet I am not. And yes, the all the airplanes that crashed
were filed IFR.............We shall wait and see. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/15/2001 7:54:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, YOURTCFG
writes:
>
> I thought I was the only guy who noticed!! Once again, we, GA, are being
> squished. I was certain that the IFR flights would be allowed quickly, as
> all the "high rollers" were not crazy about jetting around in a sewer tube
> full of crying babies while their 35 million dollar G-5 kept the asphalt
> shaded. I also predict that when we are released, it will be only
> "point-to-point" with flight following and a discreet TX code. Man I hope
> I am wrong but I bet I am not. And yes, the all the airplanes that crashed
> were filed IFR.............We shall wait and see.
I PRAY YOU ARE WRONG -- GOD HELP US IF YOU ARE NOT.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/15/01 8:40:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
john(at)vormbaum.com writes:
>
THANKS JOHN...............me to...................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/15/01 10:03:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net writes:
> "if you don't have time to file a flight plan, you don't have time to fly."
>
HI BARRY...........
Here is the problem with that. I was around when Reagan fired
all the controllers. It was pandemonium. While the VFR system was
untouched, the IFR system collapsed and delays as long as "tomorrow" were
common. Learjets were flying VFR at 17.5 just so they could fly at all. The
FAA simpley cannot even begin to handle the work load
so........................ We will be ether sitting around waiting for our
"clearnce" to fly or driving instead.
Gone would be all the spontaneity that makes flying worth while for
me. I really hope I am wrong, and I probably am. Lets include in our
prayers that reason prevails and GA is retuned to normal, soon.
goodnight.........jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: notice / Thinking outside the box / rant |
In a message dated 09/15/01 23:59:44 Pacific Daylight Time, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
writes:
> I thought I was the only guy who noticed!! ... And yes, the all the
> airplanes that crashed were filed IFR....
And all the terrorists had proper I.D. and spread it around for all to see.
Here is a excerpt of the rant I sent to the NBAA airmail net. (I'm such a
fool, I'm on 4 aviation email nets.) There was a furor over the fact that
FAR 135 operators were allowed to fly and part 91 ops were not. The 135 guys
argued for the moral high ground with the corporate flight deparments.
It was titled "Thinking outside the box"
John W. Williams of Houston says (among other things)
> . The response we see is not designed
> to stop the next "unknown" pax from bringing a knife about an
> American or United flight that's destined to depart Boston or
> Newark.
In the past, the village idiot was confined to the town square -- then he was
given CB radios and now the Internet. This is my chance to be the village
idiot.
I've been thinking about the increased security measures now in place and I
have to say it's necessary, yes, but also a distraction.
The methodology of this terrorist group did not depend on weapons secreted
past security checkpoints.
They relied on illusion. From what we know at the moment about the aircraft
that crashed in PA, there was "a box" stated to be a bomb.
I'm willing to bet it was not a bomb. How else could they have hoped to hold
x number of passengers at bay with a knife and (allegedly) a box cutter?
Besides, getting an explosive device onboard 4 aircraft would have been too
risky to the entire scope of their operation.
No hijack will ever again be possible with a box said to be a bomb. The pax
will know they are now likely to be killed and will most likely resist -- and
with vigor. They will act outside the box.
The security threat is at the other end, ladies and gentlemen: The myriad of
service personnel who load catering, service the cabins, pump fuel, etc.,
etc., etc. Clearly, people with no "background" can get jobs in these areas
and still be aligned with terrorist operatives.
I actually think the prior security screening was adequate and the current
measures are going to prevent the abberants and copy cats, but not the level
of sophistication we've just suffered.
RE: Part 91 operations, I liked the idea for the NCIC check for crews and pax
the most and then being issued a security clearance number. Actually, I hate
the idea (I doubt if I'd pass ;-)...) but think it best satisfies the needs
of those who make national security decisions.
There has been some very good thinking -- outside the box -- seen on this
forum. Let's keep brainstorming. Maybe we'll help find remedy for VFR
operations for those instances when we're asked to go where there is no
published IFR DP or IAP procedures.
Keith S. (seen too many magic shows in Vegas) Gordon
KLAS
PS: John, re: 135 vs 91. I have dinner with my CEO often. I know where he
lives, works, how he lives his life and what his politics are. Same goes for
the employees and other pax we carry.
When I flew FAR 135, I didn't know any of that about my pax. Also, I'd be
willing to bet any of the hijackers who flew the Boeings into their targets,
given the requisite hours, could have been on an FAR 135 operator's payroll.
Just thinking outside the box again ... KG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Just some Random thoughts. |
It is 3:00 in the morning. My back was bothering me, so I went outside took the
cover off my hot tub, and soaked for about 45 minutes. No, I am not wealthy or
rich by any stretch of the American imagination, I am doing a little above average
in the income arena, maybe a shade above middle class America. I live in
a 1300 square foot home, with 3 average sized bedrooms, and 2 bathrooms (part
of the decadent capitalist society, and proud of it too). I see no reason I
should have to wear rags, and live in tattered tents, but hey, if that is what
they want to do fine. But leave my way of life alone.
While sitting and soaking, I had the chance to lean my head back and peer into
a beautiful night free of clouds. I could see all the stars sparkle crystal clear
like bubbles in a glass of champagne. I had time to think and reflect on a
few things in light of this recent tragedy while seeing several marker lights
from a few commercial jetliners.
Imagine how our religious beliefs, our morals, our sense of being, the things we
hold dear, the things we reject, our personal potential are shaped and molded
by one thing alone. Yes, there is one thing that dictates who and what we are
and will become. Is it destiny? Is it fate? I do not believe so. That one thing
is where we happened to be born. If born in Japan chances are you would be
Shinto or another Japanese religion and taught in that fashion. If you were born
in Russia you might be Orthodox. If you were born in the USA, or Western Europe
probably of a Christian denomination.
As we grow older, we have opportunity, no matter where you were born to see, and
discern what is truly right, and what is truly wrong. We as adults, can determine
at that point our own "fate". Remember in the Christian Religion, Jesus
was born Jewish, but that is not what he died. We can change our religion and
our beliefs by exercising that god given brain we all have. The Muslim Religion
DOES NOT teach in any way that killing yourself to kill others is right, or
the way to Heaven. The Koran does not teach killing of any type is good, or acceptable.
I saw a program today, that expressed a sentiment that I think was so very appropriate.
The problem is not the Arabic, the Egyptian, the Muslim. The problem
is the Terrorists. The problem are the countries who support them. I think the
focus needs to shift away from this being brought out as religious even though
the terrorists call this a "Holy War". It is obvious that their actions have
no basis in any religion.
Any actions taken need taken against "Terrorists" and their allies. Regardless
of their religion, or what continent they live and reside on. I heard a report
today, that a German Firm that owned a vast amount of the WTC, assisted in the
financing of the Terrorists. I am sure if that is the case their motives were
based on greed and insurance payoffs. They are no doubt "Christians" of one
sort or another. Actions need taken against these people The terrorists.
I would hate to see a repeat of what happened to the Japanese Americans during
WWII. I do believe however that ANY, and I do mean ANY person or persons, who
display anti-American sentiments, should be sent back to their country of origin.
I do believe that our borders need to be substantially beefed up. I believe
that ALL visa and immigration applications should be turned down and no new
immigrants should be allowed in this country. After all, if they don't like it
here, then they should GO HOME.
I realize I am probably rambling but it is 3:50am it is amazing what you think
about in a hot tub with a nice cold beer. Oh there is more, but I think I will
stop here. Oh, and by the way.I am not a Muslim, I am a Christian in case any
were wondering.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Arizphys(at)aol.com <Arizphys(at)aol.com> |
I think I'll pitch in an add my two cents worth.......all the flights were
IFR and were part 121 (which to everyone's amazement were released to fly
first). But I also believe that the goverment is holding GA VFR flights not
because they serve as a direct threat in terms of another potential tragedy,
but that in doing so it aids in rapidly identifying and locating suspects. At
the flight school where I teach, there have been a number of calls from the
FBI inquiring about students of a certain ethnic background. They seem to
have developed a long list of suspects and are trying to track them down. I
may be wrong, but it's my best guess based on over-hearing some of the
conversations with the FBI.
Kristina Hufman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Just some Random thoughts. |
I think you made some rational statements. However, to define anti-American sentiments
today is much easier than it was last week. You are right. We have to
go after the terrorists. Today a person can be deported if he says anything sympathetic
about the terrorists or something stupid such as America got what was
coming to her. Last week that would have been a First Amendment issue.
If we do not properly define what is anti American, then we run the risk of damaging
the very thing that defines who we are. There are times when it is necessary
to say unsympathetic things about someone of another political persuation,
and if that person happens to be of the ruling party, would that be anti-American?
If the criteria of being pro or anti American is not focused on the Constitution,
our freedom is in grave danger. That is why President Bush received
emergency powers, which are very finite. There has to be a return to our normal
way of life, but never to the way it was before: adverse to the Constitution.
Right now it is not possible to seperate Muslims from the WTC attack, because the
terrorists themselves declare who they are, albeit not accurate. A redefinition
process has to take place in the minds of people and it is neither easy nor
quick. So, 'fundamentalist' is added, but by definition a fundamentalist is
someone who holds rigidly to fundamental principles, which is exactly what the
terrorists don't do. Shouldn't we all be fundamentalist in our principles and
morals? So, to call them 'fundamentalist' Muslims, is also a misnomer and will
merely suppress the redefinition of terrorists. The government is, I believe,
doing the right thing by callling them nothing more and nothing less than 'terrorists'
and 'enemies' as many of you also did.
So, what has changed since Tueday? I believe, among other, our perception and definition
of right and wrong has changed.
We are brand new Americans and we paid heavily to be here. I am not referring
to the sacrifices of leaving a lifestyle, family, other loved ones and material
things behind, that was part of the equation. I am referring to the hurdles
that immigration laws in the US place in the way of new immigrants, which is fine
if they are defined and adhered to properly. But the treatment is not applied
to everyone. If one were to be an alien from another planet and was sent to
observe the process of immigration to America, this is what one would report
seeing: Those who are least likely to contribute to the wellbeing of this society
gets to immigrate the easiest. That's a huge PO factor.
But why leave another society to come here? In my case I firmly believed in 1986
already that my country was moving towards communism (as they did) and I prepared
to rather plan and execute the move on my terms than being forced to move
at a time when it might not be so effective. Why America? Because the chances
are much, much less that there would be a race or culture here that would have
my demise as its stated goal. The chances were that there would be freedom
here to pursue happiness without too much interference and to exercise freedoms
that are rarely available elsewhere on the planet (such as firing up my Commander
and go where I want to go). There would be a people, who are of a culture
close to mine and speak a language that I know somewhat. So, we moved and we
are successful, which is neither a surprize nor an accident.
The next obvious thing is to get family and friends here who share what we have
in common with the Americans and we want to bring them over also. They are all
economicly active and academically very well educated and would without a doubt
land on their feet running. But the hurdles are not applied equally.
You see, the attraction to live here in America, and be an American, has its commonality
in things other than the title or the geographic location. I can testify
as one who went through the mill by making both gratifying decisions as well
as heartbreaking ones, which left life-long scars on many people who I would
not have wanted to hurt. The commonality lies in what we pursue and believe
in. This definition has been developed to such a fine specimen by a sophisticated
people, that only those who subscribe to these few principles, embodied in
our Constitution, (were supposed to) have congregated in this geographical location.
This common thread stretches beyond any cultural, religious, geographical
or other boundries. This common thread comes from passing a doctrine of reward
on to one's posterity. Reward for being smart and reward for stupidity.
It is not Americans who are smart - it is smart people who congregate in America,
which is why Americans are smart.
Unfortunately, there are some who do not believe that people of similar belief
from all nations have the right to claim for themselves the fruits of their labor
and convictions so, they resist, infiltrate and attempt to destroy us. Some
have been in this country for many generations while others only came recently.
Some do their work slowly while others are quickly and swiftly. Some deliver
their evil in a way that is hardly detectable while others hide it only for
a while. Some's effect is comes over time while others deliver it on a grand
scale. Some kill with violence while others falsify the principles. Some are
like an epidemic that rallies a huge defense while others are like a deadly virus
grown in a petri dish. The horror is the same. Because they are all the same.
Let's define anti-Americans as those who do not subscribe to the Constitution.
They ought not to congregate with those who do.
This attack on America has shaken the entire world. For the terrorist's cause,
they could not have brought more harm to it. Their intent is to subdue the Western
World with weapons of mass destruction, we already know that. This would
only have been possible if we remained trapped in our chicken heaven that ended
on Tuesday. Hopefully, the dust has come off a lot of people's rational thinking.
Hopefully the dust has come off our Constitution also. It is just a pity
that it had to come at such a high price.
Nico
Without the Constitution
There is one more thing about this: This attack on America is a sure-fire legacy
builder for any president and, if GWB had harbored any thought of pursuing a
legacy for himself, which I believe he has no interest in as an objective, this
fell into his lap like a ripe apple. How the previous Office Holders longed
for such an opportunity - and I am not implying that any of them had hoped for
a catastrophy, don't get me wrong. But the opportunity to be a great president
has elluded both of them once again.
A movement or point of view characterized by rigid adherence to fundamental or
basic principles
I cannot get my family into this country
and here is the perceived rationale: the less worth you are to America, the easier
it is to immigrate. The higher your worth
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Woodley
To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com ; chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 12:54 AM
Subject: Just some Random thoughts.
It is 3:00 in the morning. My back was bothering me, so I went outside took the
cover off my hot tub, and soaked for about 45 minutes. No, I am not wealthy
or rich by any stretch of the American imagination, I am doing a little above
average in the income arena, maybe a shade above middle class America. I live
in a 1300 square foot home, with 3 average sized bedrooms, and 2 bathrooms (part
of the decadent capitalist society, and proud of it too). I see no reason
I should have to wear rags, and live in tattered tents, but hey, if that is what
they want to do fine. But leave my way of life alone.
While sitting and soaking, I had the chance to lean my head back and peer into
a beautiful night free of clouds. I could see all the stars sparkle crystal
clear like bubbles in a glass of champagne. I had time to think and reflect on
a few things in light of this recent tragedy while seeing several marker lights
from a few commercial jetliners.
Imagine how our religious beliefs, our morals, our sense of being, the things
we hold dear, the things we reject, our personal potential are shaped and molded
by one thing alone. Yes, there is one thing that dictates who and what we
are and will become. Is it destiny? Is it fate? I do not believe so. That one
thing is where we happened to be born. If born in Japan chances are you would
be Shinto or another Japanese religion and taught in that fashion. If you were
born in Russia you might be Orthodox. If you were born in the USA, or Western
Europe probably of a Christian denomination.
As we grow older, we have opportunity, no matter where you were born to see,
and discern what is truly right, and what is truly wrong. We as adults, can determine
at that point our own "fate". Remember in the Christian Religion, Jesus
was born Jewish, but that is not what he died. We can change our religion and
our beliefs by exercising that god given brain we all have. The Muslim Religion
DOES NOT teach in any way that killing yourself to kill others is right, or
the way to Heaven. The Koran does not teach killing of any type is good, or
acceptable.
I saw a program today, that expressed a sentiment that I think was so very appropriate.
The problem is not the Arabic, the Egyptian, the Muslim. The problem
is the Terrorists. The problem are the countries who support them. I think the
focus needs to shift away from this being brought out as religious even though
the terrorists call this a "Holy War". It is obvious that their actions have
no basis in any religion.
Any actions taken need taken against "Terrorists" and their allies. Regardless
of their religion, or what continent they live and reside on. I heard a report
today, that a German Firm that owned a vast amount of the WTC, assisted in
the financing of the Terrorists. I am sure if that is the case their motives were
based on greed and insurance payoffs. They are no doubt "Christians" of one
sort or another. Actions need taken against these people The terrorists.
I would hate to see a repeat of what happened to the Japanese Americans during
WWII. I do believe however that ANY, and I do mean ANY person or persons, who
display anti-American sentiments, should be sent back to their country of origin.
I do believe that our borders need to be substantially beefed up. I believe
that ALL visa and immigration applications should be turned down and no new
immigrants should be allowed in this country. After all, if they don't like
it here, then they should GO HOME.
I realize I am probably rambling but it is 3:50am it is amazing what you think
about in a hot tub with a nice cold beer. Oh there is more, but I think I will
stop here. Oh, and by the way.I am not a Muslim, I am a Christian in case any
were wondering.
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi All,
I was on the verge of another email when I received one from Gary Loff, part of
which read:
"
I'd like you to pass along to your friends neighbors et al, how moved we were
when Her Majesty and other attendees stood and sang "The Star Spangled Banner".
I'm not that emotional but I was so touched more than I ever could have
expected. Many of my friends have had similar reactions."
I was wondering whether that had been picked up by your media.
I know, it looks pretty small beer in comparison to what has happened.
But, I'm sure you know the Brits have a great sense of tradition, and the
Changing of the Guard ceremony is one of them. This gesture broke that
tradition, and is unprecedented.
It was very obvious, visually and verbally, that Americans in the crowd at this
ceremony were really appreciative of that gesture. I feel rather proud that the
gesture was well received.
Another aspect, this one I found most disturbing, is that some school kids over
here are having to be sent home from school, the events which they saw being
simply too traumatic for them. This is true, as it encompassed one of my
colleagues at work. What worries me greatly is the long-term effect those scenes
have on them. We 'oldies can cope.
Are we going to find them, when grown-ups, with further revenge engraved in
their minds? Or, 180 degrees from that?
Only time will tell, but good parenting will no doubt prevail.
Sincerest Best Wishes,
Barry Collman
________________________________________________________________________________
JB,
Unfortunately you are probably correct. I suspect all aircraft will also be required
to carry Xponders and possibly tcas with probably more expenses to follow.
My home base (HSA) is 10 miles from the Stennis space center where they assemble
and test shuttle engines. I cant imagine thew security well have around
that relative to VFR as it is a restricted area in the middle of a swamp. So far
all weve seen down here have beeen military overflights.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: Furlong5(at)aol.com ; chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: notice
In a message dated 9/15/01 4:37:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Furlong5(at)aol.com
writes:
ALL OF THE AIRLINERS INVOLVED TUESDAY DEPARTED ON IFR FLIGHT PLANS
I thought I was the only guy who noticed!! Once again, we, GA, are being squished.
I was certain that the IFR flights would be allowed quickly, as all the
"high rollers" were not crazy about jetting around in a sewer tube full of crying
babies while their 35 million dollar G-5 kept the asphalt shaded. I also
predict that when we are released, it will be only "point-to-point" with flight
following and a discreet TX code. Man I hope I am wrong but I bet I am not.
And yes, the all the airplanes that crashed were filed IFR.............We
shall wait and see. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ricardo A. Otaola <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve> |
Please correct me, but were the terrorists flights on IFR???
Reagan Airport. They want to close it for proximity to the white house.
Hmmmm.... None of the flights came out of there.
Who comes up with these ideas??
Ricardo A. Otaola
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: notice
> Barry Hancock wrote:
> >restricting VFR traffic does not provide any
> > added level of security.
>
> Obviously, most everyone here would agree with that statement,
> but I can see the opposing viewpoint - nobody knows where VFR
> traffic is or where it's going. For my 2 cents, I wouldn't be
> a bit surprised to see the FAA allow VFR flights to resume next
> week....BUT....only with a filed flight plan. That would seem
> to be one way to allow the FAA to keep an eye on things...
>
> Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
>
> Chris
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Random Thoughts |
Mark,
I agree with you about the need to focus our retaliation towards the Terrorists.
Their effectiveness depends on creating fear and mistrust.
They are not all from the Middle East.
It saddens me also to see the start of persecution against AMERICANS of Middle
Eastern descent, as this action makes the Terrorist's plan a success. Create fear
and mistrust against the enemy.
The thinking in WW2 was "Once a Jap, Always a Jap." Wouldn't the same hold true
for "Once an American, Always an American."
We would all like to get out the "BIG HAMMER" and immediately strike back at the
nearest target, (me included) but that would be similar to swatting flies with
a 10 pound sledge hammer....VERY gratifying...but not too smart!
The clever way to erase this scourge of evil is to unite the entire world with
the tenacity of a PIT BULL and overturn EVERY rock that these Bastards are trying
to hide under.
If you are a country that is sympathetic towards this SCUM, I see you having two
choices: Turn them over...or...meet the "BIG HAMMER" wielded by the rest of
the world!
If you're looking for sympathy, try the dictionary....somewhere around shit or
suicide!
Please overlook my ranting as Cliff and I just finished some cowling work on the
520 and find ourselves unable to go fly it, due to MURDERS committed by SPINELESS,
SCUM SUCKING, COWARDLY, PIECES OF SHIT, PARASITIC DREGS OF SOCIETY!!!!!
Hmmm...In the future I need to stop mincing my words and speak my mind.
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
Great angle on this continuing story, Kristina thanks a lot
Jim Jorgensen
-----Original Message-----
From: Arizphys(at)aol.com [mailto:Arizphys(at)aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 7:57 AM
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: RE: Notice
I think I'll pitch in an add my two cents worth.......all the flights were
IFR and were part 121 (which to everyone's amazement were released to fly
first). But I also believe that the goverment is holding GA VFR flights not
because they serve as a direct threat in terms of another potential tragedy,
but that in doing so it aids in rapidly identifying and locating suspects.
At the flight school where I teach, there have been a number of calls from
the FBI inquiring about students of a certain ethnic background. They seem
to have developed a long list of suspects and are trying to track them down.
I may be wrong, but it's my best guess based on over-hearing some of the
conversations with the FBI.
Kristina Hufman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Sir Barry's Concern for Children |
I feel it is imperative that people under the age of 20 see, hear & live
this tragedy. Without that exposure, they will have no context to make the
hard decisions when their generation is in charge of their society. Look at
how crippled the US became by watching the political tragedy of the Vietnam
War - we raised a generation that produced the likes of Bill Clinton (need I
say more). However, that same war also produced those of us who have done
our best to learn & grow from observing the previous generation's errors
and, yes, successes. These people are the ones now in charge of leading our
country out of the "still" post-Vietnam malaise, and into a position of
being willing to stand for what is right - period.
We need to remember that all the children now growing up in the Free World
know only of the Tony Blair - Bill Clinton weak approaches to moral
situations ( very reminiscent of the Rodney King "Can't we all just get
along?" refrain). Sometimes we absolutely should not get along. This is
one of those times.
Trust our youngsters to handle this crisis, and grow through it - they will
amaze you at the resultant knowledge & fortitude they will show when they
are in charge.
God Bless America - today, and always . . .
Jim Jorgensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Angel Flight coverage. |
Just watched a report on NBC regarding the use of Angel Flights in support
of the rescue efforts in New York City. Referred to as "pilots who own and
operate their own aircraft", it was excellent exposure and ackowledgement of
the importance of general aviation in our nation. Angel Flights have been
flying in donated blood, medicines, firefighters from other states, and dog
booties for the sniffer dogs working the crash site...among other items.
I have considered for some time volunteering myself and my Twin Commander
for Angel Flights here on the West Coast, as I fly frequently throughout
California for business. While not directly affecting efforts to help on
the East Coast, I may be able to help folks in the west who need
transportation, or who may be affected by the inevitable delays in airline
travel.
I will fill out the Angel Flight application, and put it in the mail today.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Angel Flight coverage. |
Just watched a report on NBC regarding the use of Angel Flights in support
of the rescue efforts in New York City. Referred to as "pilots who own and
operate their own aircraft", it was excellent exposure and ackowledgement of
the importance of general aviation in our nation. Angel Flights have been
flying in donated blood, medicines, firefighters from other states, and dog
booties for the sniffer dogs working the crash site...among other items.
I have considered for some time volunteering myself and my Twin Commander
for Angel Flights here on the West Coast, as I fly frequently throughout
California for business. While not directly affecting efforts to help on
the East Coast, I may be able to help folks in the west who need
transportation, or who may be affected by the inevitable delays in airline
travel.
I will fill out the Angel Flight application, and put it in the mail today.
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
________________________________________________________________________________
Im at an airfield where i have to call to recieve a void time by phone. Is that
a "clearance" or am I still considered a popup? The notam seems ambiguous.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
Ricardo:
When the 'major airlines' first started flying jets, all jet flights were
IFR ONLY, years later, some were changed, but basically, all the majors, as
part of their Flight Ops Spec., (which becomes FAR's for them when
approved) are IFR Only flying. After the Controllers strike, there was a
move to change this, but basically it remains in tack I believe.
My thoughts on Reagan Airport, is its a 1/4 mile from the flight path of
over the river to major government buildings, they are restricted areas,
but little or no warning or reaction time.
Don
> [Original Message]
> From: Ricardo A. Otaola <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve>
> To: ; Chris Schuermann
> Date: 9/16/01 9:23:57 AM
> Subject: Re: notice
>
> Please correct me, but were the terrorists flights on IFR???
>
> Reagan Airport. They want to close it for proximity to the white house.
> Hmmmm.... None of the flights came out of there.
>
> Who comes up with these ideas??
>
>
> Ricardo A. Otaola
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:20 PM
> Subject: Re: notice
>
>
> > Barry Hancock wrote:
> > >restricting VFR traffic does not provide any
> > > added level of security.
> >
> > Obviously, most everyone here would agree with that statement,
> > but I can see the opposing viewpoint - nobody knows where VFR
> > traffic is or where it's going. For my 2 cents, I wouldn't be
> > a bit surprised to see the FAA allow VFR flights to resume next
> > week....BUT....only with a filed flight plan. That would seem
> > to be one way to allow the FAA to keep an eye on things...
> >
> > Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
> >
> > Chris
> >
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Matlick <rkm7649p(at)fred.net> |
This morning just before noon Phil Boyer, president of AOPA, returned to FDK from
Washington,
where he had talks with high officials. I was not there when he arrived but was
shortly thereafter.
A friend who heard what Boyer had to say told me that he thinks that VFR could
begin as soon as
tomorrow - but with restrictions. One of these - and I am not sure - could be a
distance limit: 50
miles from home base. This would allow for training but little else. Another might
be no VFR within
50 miles of the capitol. This second one would keep me on the ground, of course.
Keep in mind that
this is second hand, and when you repeat it, it will be third hand. I thought you
would want to
know.
I have been checking the AOPA web site almost hourly since then but nothing yet.
You may also want
to check. http://www.aopa.org/
Last night I heard the almost constant roar of fighters patrolling over Camp David,
just a few miles
away. Eerie.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Milt,
8. PILOTS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO DEPART VFR TO ACTIVATE IFR
CLEARANCES AIRBORNE.
The NOTAM is clear that you need a clearance before you depart. If
you cannot contact ATC on the ground and get a transponder code, you should
ask for one when you get your void time by phone. From talking to the guys
at Central Air, the big thing was having a transponder code before take off.
I hope this helps. You do not want to be waving at the F-16s 5 minuets
after you take off.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Milt [mailto:mdcmd@ms-online.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 1:58 PM
To: Commander Chat
Subject: Part 91 IFR
Im at an airfield where i have to call to recieve a void time by phone. Is
that a "clearance" or am I still considered a popup? The notam seems
ambiguous.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
Commaderland,
Below is an email response (my responses in blue) I sent to an apparently
bitter individual. I'll keep him anonymous but thought you might be
interested in the discussion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
----------
From: Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:24:23 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: notice
Hi,
I fear that you have not grasped the reality of what is soon to happen.
Fear not.
Your delta force will not be having fun for a couple of years!
Be it a couple of weeks, months, years, or decades... I, nor most of my
fellow educated Americans, believe the Delta Force or any Spec. Ops.
organization will irradicate the world of terrorist leaders and
organizations. Most of our men and women join the armed forces not because
they are war mongers, but to serve our country hoping they never have to go
to war. The Delta Force, on the other hand, prays daily for a chance to
kick some ass. My statement was not meant to be any further reaching than
that.
America has existed in isolation from the rest of the world since the UK
invaded in 1812.
Tell that to my great Uncle killed on Utah Beach on D-Day. Statements such
as the one above ignore the facts.
You are about to join the real world BIG TIME.
Maybe this is true for our citizens at home, however both our nationals
abroad and military have been targeted by terrorism for a very long time.
Military action started now, will probably last for decades, and involve
much loss of life, both in the USA and here in the UK and Europe. Muslim
extremists are already preparing for a Holly War. That means hundreds of
thousands of suicide bombers will volunteer.
You underestimate our abilities and overestimate the numbers of
extremist/fanatics. A *Holy* war is not something most Muslims are
interested in.
Americans tend only to see TV about American interests. For example, the
Italian Grand Prix was run today. How many of you know what it is, and what
it is about?
Schumacher is back on top of his game, but it's a shame to see Villeneuve
struggle. I knew he was going to be good back in his Indy Lights days. By
the way, who do you like for the MVP in the American League? Too bad A-Rod
will be overlooked. Give me a break! Americans know as much about other
countries as other countries know about America. The fact that millions are
fascinated by America is not our fault.
Many Americans are oblivious to the world outside their State, or County.
Whether you like it or not, you are all going to discover that there is a
whole big world out there, much of it upset with, or about America.
Much? That infers a majority. Many people in many countries are oblivious
to the world outside, your point has little affect.
Don't forget that only 4% of Americans ever set foot outside America!
So what is your point? I've been to 27 countries on 5 continents, yet there
are many people here better versed on world politics than I. Statistics are
meaninless unless there is correlation AND causation.
When Russia was fighting in Afghanistan, America trained, and armed the
Taliban. How many of you are aware of that fact? Of course, in those days
they were freedom fighters. Today they are terrorists; if you can tell the
difference let me know!
It's called the Cold War. Protecting national interests is a dirty
business. Fighting the Russian Army and attacking innocent civilians are
just a bit different to me.
As I have said before, your freedoms are surely to be curbed in the
interests of security.
You are incorrect here as well. Sorry to keep disagreeing, but the best
way to fight ignorance is intelligence.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
If you wait too see what happens, you will possibly be too late. You should
lobby your political reps. now, before it is to late. I hope you succeed in
your objective.
I'm sure you do, because if *we* don't the entire civilized world will
suffer the consequences.
I want to come and fly over there one day.
Hmmm.
Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
>
> Gday Barry,
>
> Good response...! I made a decision years back not to waste my breath on the
> likes of this disgruntled one...
>
> Best wishes and regards to 680E!!
>
> Russell
>
>
>
> Commaderland,
>
> Below is an email response (my responses in blue) I sent to an apparently
> bitter individual. I'll keep him anonymous but thought you might be
> interested in the discussion.
>
> Barry Hancock
> Precision Flight Networks
> (949) 300-5510
> bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
>
>
> ----------
> From: Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net>
> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:24:23 -0700
> To:
> Subject: Re: notice
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I fear that you have not grasped the reality of what is soon to happen.
>>
>> Fear not.
>>
>> Your delta force will not be having fun for a couple of years!
>>
>> Be it a couple of weeks, months, years, or decades... I, nor most of my
>> fellow educated Americans, believe the Delta Force or any Spec. Ops.
>> organization will irradicate the world of terrorist leaders and
>> organizations. Most of our men and women join the armed forces not because
>> they are war mongers, but to serve our country hoping they never have to go
>> to war. The Delta Force, on the other hand, prays daily for a chance to kick
>> some ass. My statement was not meant to be any further reaching than that.
>>
>> America has existed in isolation from the rest of the world since the UK
>> invaded in 1812.
>>
>> Tell that to my great Uncle killed on Utah Beach on D-Day. Statements such
>> as the one above ignore the facts.
>>
>> You are about to join the real world BIG TIME.
>>
>> Maybe this is true for our citizens at home, however both our nationals
>> abroad and military have been targeted by terrorism for a very long time.
>>
>> Military action started now, will probably last for decades, and involve much
>> loss of life, both in the USA and here in the UK and Europe. Muslim
>> extremists are already preparing for a Holly War. That means hundreds of
>> thousands of suicide bombers will volunteer.
>>
>> You underestimate our abilities and overestimate the numbers of
>> extremist/fanatics. A *Holy* war is not something most Muslims are
>> interested in.
>>
>> Americans tend only to see TV about American interests. For example, the
>> Italian Grand Prix was run today. How many of you know what it is, and what
>> it is about?
>>
>> Schumacher is back on top of his game, but it's a shame to see Villeneuve
>> struggle. I knew he was going to be good back in his Indy Lights days. By
>> the way, who do you like for the MVP in the American League? Too bad A-Rod
>> will be overlooked. Give me a break! Americans know as much about other
>> countries as other countries know about America. The fact that millions are
>> fascinated by America is not our fault.
>>
>> Many Americans are oblivious to the world outside their State, or County.
>> Whether you like it or not, you are all going to discover that there is a
>> whole big world out there, much of it upset with, or about America.
>>
>> Much? That infers a majority. Many people in many countries are oblivious
>> to the world outside, your point has little affect.
>>
>> Don't forget that only 4% of Americans ever set foot outside America!
>>
>> So what is your point? I've been to 27 countries on 5 continents, yet there
>> are many people here better versed on world politics than I. Statistics are
>> meaninless unless there is correlation AND causation.
>>
>> When Russia was fighting in Afghanistan, America trained, and armed the
>> Taliban. How many of you are aware of that fact? Of course, in those days
>> they were freedom fighters. Today they are terrorists; if you can tell the
>> difference let me know!
>>
>> It's called the Cold War. Protecting national interests is a dirty business.
>> Fighting the Russian Army and attacking innocent civilians are just a bit
>> different to me.
>>
>> As I have said before, your freedoms are surely to be curbed in the interests
>> of security.
>>
>> You are incorrect here as well. Sorry to keep disagreeing, but the best way
>> to fight ignorance is intelligence.
>>>
>>> "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
>>> have, nor do they deserve, either one."
>>> -- Thomas Jefferson
>>>
>> If you wait too see what happens, you will possibly be too late. You should
>> lobby your political reps. now, before it is to late. I hope you succeed in
>> your objective.
>>
>> I'm sure you do, because if *we* don't the entire civilized world will suffer
>> the consequences.
>>
>> I want to come and fly over there one day.
>>
>> Hmmm.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | I've found one at Khartoum International! |
Gday everybody!
In some strange twist of fate, this morning I started thumbing through the
pages of the latest Airliner World magazine (the August issue that is...we
get them late here on the stands in Oz!) and you can imagine that in the
light of recent events I was attracted quickly to the three page article
hidden towards the back and written by Bobert Grant on Survivors in
Sudan!!
Surprise, surprise...at the southern end of Khartoums International
Airport, poking its nose out from under the tail of DC-7C N7524 and
surrounded by Piper Navajo wrecks, a Thrush Commander and an An-2 was an
anonymous Twin Commander...albeit internally stripped, without engines but
still with wings attached and on its wheels!
Perhaps we should subject it to Sir Barrys Columbian vacuum cleaner or just
generally ponder as to its past clandestine operations in the former home of
our greatest foe (and probably in his presence)...
Would be a fantastic challenge for a group of us to recover and restore the
old girl...but youve caught me dreaming!!
Sir Barry, I have made some discrete inquiries on the identity of the TC in
question and will update the group as soon as news comes to hand.
Another day of happy hunting in Commanderland!
Cheers and beers to all
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Found another 520! |
Many thanks for sharing this one with us Chris!
Best wishes
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
FW: noticeWell done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
grasp of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear logic.
The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by the
victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her identity so
we too can have some fun?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 9:27 PM
Subject: FW: notice
Commaderland,
Below is an email response (my responses in blue) I sent to an apparently bitter
individual. I'll keep him anonymous but thought you might be interested in
the discussion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
----------
From: Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:24:23 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: notice
Hi,
I fear that you have not grasped the reality of what is soon to happen.
Fear not.
Your delta force will not be having fun for a couple of years!
Be it a couple of weeks, months, years, or decades... I, nor most of my fellow
educated Americans, believe the Delta Force or any Spec. Ops. organization
will irradicate the world of terrorist leaders and organizations. Most of our
men and women join the armed forces not because they are war mongers, but to
serve our country hoping they never have to go to war. The Delta Force, on
the other hand, prays daily for a chance to kick some ass. My statement was not
meant to be any further reaching than that.
America has existed in isolation from the rest of the world since the UK invaded
in 1812.
Tell that to my great Uncle killed on Utah Beach on D-Day. Statements such
as the one above ignore the facts.
You are about to join the real world BIG TIME.
Maybe this is true for our citizens at home, however both our nationals abroad
and military have been targeted by terrorism for a very long time.
Military action started now, will probably last for decades, and involve much
loss of life, both in the USA and here in the UK and Europe. Muslim extremists
are already preparing for a Holly War. That means hundreds of thousands of
suicide bombers will volunteer.
You underestimate our abilities and overestimate the numbers of extremist/fanatics.
A *Holy* war is not something most Muslims are interested in.
Americans tend only to see TV about American interests. For example, the Italian
Grand Prix was run today. How many of you know what it is, and what it is
about?
Schumacher is back on top of his game, but it's a shame to see Villeneuve struggle.
I knew he was going to be good back in his Indy Lights days. By the
way, who do you like for the MVP in the American League? Too bad A-Rod will
be overlooked. Give me a break! Americans know as much about other countries
as other countries know about America. The fact that millions are fascinated
by America is not our fault.
Many Americans are oblivious to the world outside their State, or County. Whether
you like it or not, you are all going to discover that there is a whole
big world out there, much of it upset with, or about America.
Much? That infers a majority. Many people in many countries are oblivious
to the world outside, your point has little affect.
Don't forget that only 4% of Americans ever set foot outside America!
So what is your point? I've been to 27 countries on 5 continents, yet there
are many people here better versed on world politics than I. Statistics are
meaninless unless there is correlation AND causation.
When Russia was fighting in Afghanistan, America trained, and armed the Taliban.
How many of you are aware of that fact? Of course, in those days they were
freedom fighters. Today they are terrorists; if you can tell the difference
let me know!
It's called the Cold War. Protecting national interests is a dirty business.
Fighting the Russian Army and attacking innocent civilians are just a bit
different to me.
As I have said before, your freedoms are surely to be curbed in the interests
of security.
You are incorrect here as well. Sorry to keep disagreeing, but the best way
to fight ignorance is intelligence.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
If you wait too see what happens, you will possibly be too late. You should
lobby your political reps. now, before it is to late. I hope you succeed in your
objective.
I'm sure you do, because if *we* don't the entire civilized world will suffer
the consequences.
I want to come and fly over there one day.
Hmmm.
Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: I've found one at Khartoum International! |
Hi Russell,
There's a strong possibility that this Commander is 500A serial 1262-85.
Supplied new to South Africa as ZS-COS in November 1962, it found its way
to Sudan in April 1971, where it was registered ST-ADZ, via Kenya, where it
was registered as VP-KST, later 5Y-KST.
On January 16th, 1976, ST-ADZ was damaged at Wau in Sudan after a runway
excursion following an emergency landing, and struck some bushes.
On October 28th that year, the marks ST-ADZ were cancelled, as "sold in
Kenya", and indeed there is a Bill of Sale to a Henry S Leavitt, of
Nairobi, Kenya, but this was not until December 19th, 1977. Additionally,
it was not registered in Kenya, but in the USA, as N72601, on February 6th,
1978.
In December 1980, it was noted at Khartoum in a derelict condition, and was
further damaged there in a storm on July 29th, 1981 when the assured was
quoted as a Colin Davis. The last "roving report" I have is August 1981,
when it was noted, still at Khartoum, in its now-customary derelict
condition.
The FAA revoked the registration on September 1982, under the Federal
Aviation Act 1958 section 501(e).
20 years may seem an extraordinarily long time for it to remain in the same
place as a hulk, but nothing surprises me nowadays!
Russell, I'll be most interested to learn whether your follow-up confirms
it as being this airframe, and even more interested to learn that it's
another!!
Sincerest Regards,
Barry Collman
Russell Legg
cc:
17/09/2001 Subject: I've found one at Khartoum
14:08 International!
G'day everybody!
In some strange twist of fate, this morning I started thumbing through the
pages of the latest 'Airliner World' magazine (the August issue that
is...we get them late here on the stands in Oz!) and you can imagine that
in the light of recent events I was attracted quickly to the three page
article hidden towards the back and written by Bobert Grant on "Survivors
in Sudan"!!
Surprise, surprise...at the southern end of Khartoum's International
Airport, poking its nose out from under the tail of DC-7C N7524 and
surrounded by Piper Navajo wrecks, a Thrush Commander and an An-2 was an
anonymous Twin Commander...albeit internally stripped, without engines but
still with wings attached and on its wheels!
Perhaps we should subject it to Sir Barry's Columbian vacuum cleaner or
just generally ponder as to its past clandestine operations in the former
home of our greatest foe (and probably in his presence)...
Would be a fantastic challenge for a group of us to recover and restore the
old girl...but you've caught me dreaming!!
Sir Barry, I have made some discrete inquiries on the identity of the TC in
question and will update the group as soon as news comes to hand.
Another day of happy hunting in Commanderland!
Cheers and beers to all
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
grasp of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken
by the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her
identity so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically
telling me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't
take to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from
Adam. However, I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of
1812, it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and
women who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests,
but the interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements
act to reduce the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to
speak tongue-in-cheek. It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly
ignorant statements resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
Had a phone chat with big Al yesterday. Looks like he is going to keep Lucille
and finish his training.
Im still waiting on my fuel flow guages then hopefully i will be able to remember
how to fly.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
grasp of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken
by the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her
identity so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically
telling me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't
take to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from
Adam. However, I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of
1812, it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and
women who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests,
but the interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements
act to reduce the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to
speak tongue-in-cheek. It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly
ignorant statements resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
Re: noticeWell if the United States pulled its Foreign WELFARE rolls, and STOPPED
giving all OUR hard earned tax doallars to all the good for nothing ungrateful
coutries in the world, and YES even the ones who cheered at the bombing, they
would all starve to death. It is ONLY because we are active in the world,
and are a VERY generous people that they even have freeking food to put in their
mouths. Without us their economies would TOTALLY collapse, leaving them dead
from starvation.
mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior grasp
of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear logic.
The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by the
victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her identity
so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically telling
me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't take to
kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam. However,
I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women who
have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but the
interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to reduce
the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak tongue-in-cheek.
It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant statements
resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
Re: noticeI echo your sentiments... Thanks for standing up to be counted.
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Barry Hancock ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Oh, yea, I remember the guy. One of our guys refused to pee on him even if he's
on fire, or something. That's OK. We won't bother then.
I must say, though, that the broader news service (read liberal CNN) does not
paint a true picture of America and Americans to the outside world. If we had
to decide to immigrate to the US, based on what we heard, read and saw on TV,
we would never have come here. But I don't believe in hyperspeech such as EVER,
NEVER, EVERYBODY, and so on, and in addition I can smell a liberal half way
across the planet, so I decided to first came over here to see for myself in
1986 and what I found was totally and pleasantly surprising and confirmed my belief
about liberals and not to trust hyperspeech.
There was one news anchor here in CA who was busy talking about America's image
in the outside world and was about say words to the effect 'it may be reasonable
to expect ...' when the station suddenly cut to advertisements. No doubt
a producer heard him say something very embarrasing and cut him off within the
time-delay. Many Americans have already been bamboozled into liberal thinking
and that we (read successful people) are only evil and can only be successful
at the expense of some poor sod out there. What will we then say about the outside
world who has no other frame of reference and who are not doing as well
as we are here. It is not a huge gap to scale to get to 'the evil empire'. We
probably will never know how much damage was done by the likes of Jane Fonda
during the Vietnam War.
I mean I saw with horror on TV last week where a so-called phsychologist explaining
to kids, when asked what about the rejoicing Palistinians, that it was
a staged jubilation. What utter nonsense even though some reports are doing the
rounds claiming that those video tapes were recorded when Sadam invaded Kuwait.
Nothing points to a staged jubilation. If she had known that she would've
said so. It is this kind of 'feel good' crap that not only poisons our kids, but
is aslo spreads around the globe, and it gives people their only American perception.
Truth in advertising couldn't have been more needed and appropriate.
I wrote earlier to this list in which I insinuated that there are two kinds
of terrorists in this mix.
But you put this poor misinformed specimen in his place with dignity.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: notice
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
grasp of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by
the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her identity
so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically telling
me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't take
to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam. However,
I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women
who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but the
interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to reduce
the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak tongue-in-cheek.
It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant statements
resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Re: noticeOh, yea, I remember the guy. One of our guys refused to pee on him even
if he's on fire, or something. That's OK. We won't bother then.
I must say, though, that the broader news service (read liberal CNN) does not paint
a true picture of America and Americans to the outside world. If we had to
decide to immigrate to the US, based on what we heard, read and saw on TV, we
would never have come here. But I don't believe in hyperspeech such as EVER,
NEVER, EVERYBODY, and so on, and in addition I can smell a liberal half way across
the planet, so I decided to first came over here to see for myself in 1986
and what I found was totally and pleasantly surprising and confirmed my belief
about liberals and not to trust hyperspeech.
There was one news anchor here in CA who was busy talking about America's image
in the outside world and was about say words to the effect 'it may be reasonable
to expect ...' when the station suddenly cut to advertisements. No doubt a
producer heard him say something very embarrasing and cut him off within the
time-delay. Many Americans have already been bamboozled into liberal thinking
and that we (read successful people) are only evil and can only be successful
at the expense of some poor sod out there. What will we then say about the outside
world who has no other frame of reference and who are not doing as well as
we are here. It is not a huge gap to scale to get to 'the evil empire'. We probably
will never know how much damage was done by the likes of Jane Fonda during
the Vietnam War.
I mean I saw with horror on TV last week where a so-called phsychologist explaining
to kids, when asked what about the rejoicing Palistinians, that it was a
staged jubilation. What utter nonsense even though some reports are doing the
rounds claiming that those video tapes were recorded when Sadam invaded Kuwait.
Nothing points to a staged jubilation. If she had known that she would've said
so. It is this kind of 'feel good' crap that not only poisons our kids, but
is aslo spreads around the globe, and it gives people their only American perception.
Truth in advertising couldn't have been more needed and appropriate.
I wrote earlier to this list in which I insinuated that there are two kinds of
terrorists in this mix.
But you put this poor misinformed specimen in his place with dignity.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: notice
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior grasp
of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear logic.
The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by the
victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her identity
so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically telling
me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't take to
kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam. However,
I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women who
have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but the
interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to reduce
the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak tongue-in-cheek.
It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant statements
resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
Re: noticeWell if the United States pulled its Foreign WELFARE rolls, and STOPPED
giving all OUR hard earned tax doallars to all the good for nothing ungrateful
coutries in the world, and YES even the ones who cheered at the bombing, they
would all starve to death. It is ONLY because we are active in the world,
and are a VERY generous people that they even have freeking food to put in their
mouths. Without us their economies would TOTALLY collapse, leaving them dead
from starvation.
mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior grasp
of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear logic.
The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by the
victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her identity
so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically telling
me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't take to
kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam. However,
I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women who
have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but the
interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to reduce
the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak tongue-in-cheek.
It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant statements
resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Re: noticeOff subject, and maybe not appropriate, but on a major network's round-table
news program discussing America's retaliation strategy, I heard a gentleman
of middle eastern descent mention that "it's not really possible to bomb
Afghanistan back to the stone age, because they're nearly already there." Interesting
reminder of just how lucky we are to live in a place like America, and
also perhaps a reason why there is so much hate towards the USA in the middle
east.
The Taliban states that their citizens need nothing more than a 6th grade education
to be a useful member of their society. Most Afghans have less than a 3rd
grade education.
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Woodley
To: Barry Hancock ; Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Well if the United States pulled its Foreign WELFARE rolls, and STOPPED giving
all OUR hard earned tax doallars to all the good for nothing ungrateful coutries
in the world, and YES even the ones who cheered at the bombing, they would
all starve to death. It is ONLY because we are active in the world, and are
a VERY generous people that they even have freeking food to put in their mouths.
Without us their economies would TOTALLY collapse, leaving them dead from
starvation.
mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
grasp of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by
the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her identity
so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically telling
me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't take
to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam. However,
I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women
who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but the
interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to reduce
the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak tongue-in-cheek.
It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant statements
resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
Off subject, and maybe not appropriate, but on a major network's round-table
news program discussing America's retaliation strategy, I heard a gentleman
of middle eastern descent mention that "it's not really possible to bomb
Afghanistan back to the stone age, because they're nearly already there."
Interesting reminder of just how lucky we are to live in a place like
America, and also perhaps a reason why there is so much hate towards the USA
in the middle east.
Yes, it's *a* reason. A more important consideration is that nearly all of
the educated people left Afghanistan during the Russian conflict. That
means for the last 20 years it has been uneducated/poverty stricken breeding
more uneducated/poverty stricken under the oppressive Taliban run gov't. It
is easy to manipulate the minds of those in isolation. I do not blame the
people for they are just a product of their environment. However, the
Taliban MUST be destroyed. It is not only for the sake of world security,
but also for the people of Afghanistan.
The Taliban states that their citizens need nothing more than a 6th grade
education to be a useful member of their society. Most Afghans have less
than a 3rd grade education.
Evidence for my assertion above.
Folks, it's time to quit pussyfooting around, and being politcally correct
and "sensitive" to points of view that are "different." Tattooes, piereced
body parts, and green hair are one thing. Preaching hatred is wrong and
evil, and evil must be destroyed. There is no justice for these people,
only elimination. You are either with us, or against us. For those of you
who feel a military response is immoral, I guess it's OK for you to continue
our previous course of action (or better stated, inaction) and use words to
condem the next attack that takes THOUSANDS of innocent lives. Let me get
this through your freaking thick skulls....go to the beach, grab a fist full
of sand, and pour. THAT'S HOW MANY BODY PARTS ARE IN THE WTC RUBBLE!!!!!
Now go take those body parts to the sons and daughters of their pulverized
mommies and daddies and tell them how moral it is to do nothing to keep this
from happening again.
Yes, retaliation/elimination is a last resort. Unfortunately for all of us
we have run out of options.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS..........
Well, another day of being "ground stopped." As the days turn
into a week I wonder?? Just how long will this continue?? Why are we, the
only segment not causing trouble, still grounded? I am getting kinda
anxious. My fear is that the longer the Feds wait, the easier it will be to
ad cumbersome restrictions. Pilots will be so happy just to fly that they
will embrace any chance to get back into the air, no matter how much we have
to give up.
Just hanging around..............jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Re: noticeOff subject, and maybe not appropriate, but on a major network's round-table
news program discussing America's retaliation strategy, I heard a gentleman
of middle eastern descent mention that "it's not really possible to bomb
Afghanistan back to the stone age, because they're nearly already there." Interesting
reminder of just how lucky we are to live in a place like America, and
also perhaps a reason why there is so much hate towards the USA in the middle
east.
The Taliban states that their citizens need nothing more than a 6th grade education
to be a useful member of their society. Most Afghans have less than a 3rd
grade education.
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Woodley
To: Barry Hancock ; Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Well if the United States pulled its Foreign WELFARE rolls, and STOPPED giving
all OUR hard earned tax doallars to all the good for nothing ungrateful coutries
in the world, and YES even the ones who cheered at the bombing, they would
all starve to death. It is ONLY because we are active in the world, and are
a VERY generous people that they even have freeking food to put in their mouths.
Without us their economies would TOTALLY collapse, leaving them dead from
starvation.
mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
grasp of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by
the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her identity
so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically telling
me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't take
to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam. However,
I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women
who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but the
interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to reduce
the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak tongue-in-cheek.
It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant statements
resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Re: noticeWe are one of the youngest (if not the youngest) cultures in the world.
And we are head and shoulders above anything out there. Don't mention the Egyptians,
they're in museums; don't mention the Roman Empire, it is only visible
in folklore and plays. What we lack, though, are old buildings. But, what the
heck, we'll then just have to wait a thousand years or so and then we will
talk.
There has to be something about this country that makes us a winner.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: Mark Woodley ; Barry Hancock ; Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Off subject, and maybe not appropriate, but on a major network's round-table
news program discussing America's retaliation strategy, I heard a gentleman of
middle eastern descent mention that "it's not really possible to bomb Afghanistan
back to the stone age, because they're nearly already there." Interesting
reminder of just how lucky we are to live in a place like America, and also perhaps
a reason why there is so much hate towards the USA in the middle east.
The Taliban states that their citizens need nothing more than a 6th grade education
to be a useful member of their society. Most Afghans have less than a 3rd
grade education.
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Woodley
To: Barry Hancock ; Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Well if the United States pulled its Foreign WELFARE rolls, and STOPPED giving
all OUR hard earned tax doallars to all the good for nothing ungrateful coutries
in the world, and YES even the ones who cheered at the bombing, they would
all starve to death. It is ONLY because we are active in the world, and are
a VERY generous people that they even have freeking food to put in their mouths.
Without us their economies would TOTALLY collapse, leaving them dead from
starvation.
mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: notice
Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
grasp of being polite.
You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken
by the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her identity
so we too can have some fun?
All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list
and for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically
telling me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't take
to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam.
However, I refuse to compromise my dignity.
When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women
who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but
the interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to
reduce the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak tongue-in-cheek.
It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant statements
resulting from emotion.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will
not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PhilHackett(at)aol.com <PhilHackett(at)aol.com> |
Dear Nico,
We are on the same page, you just read English differently.
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
>> Barry... I admire your courage and persistence. Dont ever forget that on
>> this list you are flanked and protected by a cohesive bunch of true
>> believers... thats all that counts.
>>
>> Cheers and beers from Oz!
>>
>> Russell
>>
>>
>> Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
>> grasp of being polite.
> You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
> logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by
> the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her
> identity so we too can have some fun?
>
> All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
> for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically
> telling me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't
> take to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam.
> However, I refuse to compromise my dignity.
>
> When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
> it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women
> who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but the
> interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to
> reduce the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak
> tongue-in-cheek. It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant
> statements resulting from emotion.
>
> Barry Hancock
> Precision Flight Networks
> (949) 300-5510
> bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
>
>>> "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
>>> have, nor do they deserve, either one."
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: I've found one at Khartoum International! |
Thanks Barry... Will let you know more as news comes to hand!
Cheers
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
> Gday Nico,
>
> Your country is a winner because it enshrines the very basic human rights of
> democratic process, freedom, spontaneity and the love of future ambition and
> hope. These benchmark items are evident all around you and the TCFG Fly-in at
> Hillsboro presented a vivid example of the richness of life when these items
> coincide!
>
> Cheers from Oz!
>
> Russell
>
>
>
>
> We are one of the youngest (if not the youngest) cultures in the world. And we
> are head and shoulders above anything out there. Don't mention the Egyptians,
> they're in museums; don't mention the Roman Empire, it is only visible in
> folklore and plays. What we lack, though, are old buildings. But, what the
> heck, we'll then just have to wait a thousand years or so and then we will
> talk.
> There has to be something about this country that makes us a winner.
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: John Vormbaum <mailto:john(at)vormbaum.com>
>> To: Mark Woodley ; Barry Hancock
>> ; Nico van Niekerk
>> ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: notice
>>
>> Off subject, and maybe not appropriate, but on a major network's round-table
>> news program discussing America's retaliation strategy, I heard a gentleman
>> of middle eastern descent mention that "it's not really possible to bomb
>> Afghanistan back to the stone age, because they're nearly already there."
>> Interesting reminder of just how lucky we are to live in a place like
>> America, and also perhaps a reason why there is so much hate towards the USA
>> in the middle east.
>>
>> The Taliban states that their citizens need nothing more than a 6th grade
>> education to be a useful member of their society. Most Afghans have less than
>> a 3rd grade education.
>>
>> /John
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Mark Woodley <mailto:woodlema(at)intrex.net>
>>> To: Barry Hancock ; Nico van Niekerk
>>> ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>>> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: notice
>>>
>>> Well if the United States pulled its Foreign WELFARE rolls, and STOPPED
>>> giving all OUR hard earned tax doallars to all the good for nothing
>>> ungrateful coutries in the world, and YES even the ones who cheered at the
>>> bombing, they would all starve to death. It is ONLY because we are active
>>> in the world, and are a VERY generous people that they even have freeking
>>> food to put in their mouths. Without us their economies would TOTALLY
>>> collapse, leaving them dead from starvation.
>>>
>>> mark
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Barry Hancock <mailto:bdogltd(at)pacbell.net>
>>>> To: Nico van Niekerk ;
>>>> commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:28 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: notice
>>>>
>>>>> Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
>>>>> grasp of being polite.
>>>> You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
>>>> logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken
>>>> by the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her
>>>> identity so we too can have some fun?
>>>>
>>>> All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list
>>>> and for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email
>>>> basically telling me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass.
>>>> I don't take to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me
>>>> from Adam. However, I refuse to compromise my dignity.
>>>>
>>>> When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of
>>>> 1812, it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and
>>>> women who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American
>>>> interests, but the interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such
>>>> statements act to reduce the general credibility of the author. It is one
>>>> thing to speak tongue-in-cheek. It is another issue alltogether to stand
>>>> on clearly ignorant statements resulting from emotion.
>>>>
>>>> Barry Hancock
>>>> Precision Flight Networks
>>>> (949) 300-5510
>>>> bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
>>>>
>>>>>> "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
>>>>>> have, nor do they deserve, either one."
>>>> -- Thomas Jefferson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | They're coming home! |
Hi All!
Thought you'd like to know that no less than three Commanders (+ a Rockwell
700), have come back home, being registered with an 'N' number during
August.
500B-1081-52 was in Argentina from new, but LV-HIG (ex LV-PGD) is now
N500HV.
500S-3232 was also in Argentina from new, but LV-LSE (ex LV-PTR) is now
N775JB.
695A-96012 was in Canada since new, but C-GJEI is now N695BA.
The Rockwell 700 was also in Canada for a while, but C-GGLN is now back as
N250JS.
A good month, especially as there were no cancellations!
Re the proposed 2002 Fly-In, is South Carolina "Red-neck" and/or "no-name"
territory? If so, is a special Visa required?
Best Regards to All,
Barry Collman
UK Commanderland rep.
THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY
If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible for
return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other than
the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road, Heathrow
Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
England and Wales.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
Hi All!
Earlier, Nico wrote:
"There has to be something about this country that makes us a winner."
One shining example, the Hillsboro Fly-In, thanks to Capt Jimbob and, of
course, all the attendees.
Best Regards,
Barry Collman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PhilHackett(at)aol.com <PhilHackett(at)aol.com> |
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
Elegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady (1717) l. 37
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
> Gday Milt,
>
> Thanks for your good news... it is great to hear that Lucille is going to stay
> in her good home. Nice to predict that as a result we will no doubt all meet
> up with Big Al next year!
>
> Brave and honourable decision Big Al... Nicole would be proud!
>
> Cheers and beers
>
> Russell
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Re: good newsYes,
Next year you will meet Big AL If I have to cuff his fat redneck as and drug him
with his own no name moonshine. Hopefully you will also get to meet Lucille.
He has an stc pending to convert her from avgas to no name. In fact I think we
should send al to kabul and he can kill em all with redneck jokes
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Legg
To: Milt Concannon ; Commander Chat
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: good news
G'day Milt,
Thanks for your good news... it is great to hear that Lucille is going to stay
in her good home. Nice to predict that as a result we will no doubt all meet
up with Big Al next year!
Brave and honourable decision Big Al... Nicole would be proud!
Cheers and beers
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
>> Barry... I admire your courage and persistence. Dont ever forget that on
>> this list you are flanked and protected by a cohesive bunch of true
>> believers... thats all that counts.
>>
>> Cheers and beers from Oz!
>>
>> Russell
>>
>>
>> Well done, Barry. Your patience is outstanding and I bow to your superior
>> grasp of being polite.
> You responded to hear-say, inuendo, and fear mongering with facts and clear
> logic. The poor sod faded on every point. Pity he will not even be awaken by
> the victory that will be ours - sooner or later. Perhaps share his/her
> identity so we too can have some fun?
>
> All I will say is that the individual has made recent posts on this list and
> for what ever reason chose to single me out with a private email basically
> telling me I (and the rest of America) has it's head up it's ass. I don't
> take to kindly to that, especially from someone who doesn't know me from Adam.
> However, I refuse to compromise my dignity.
>
> When someone says that the US has existed in isolation since the war of 1812,
> it not only insults me, but also the hundreds of thousands of men and women
> who have sacrificed their lives not only to defend American interests, but the
> interests of the entire free world. Additionally, such statements act to
> reduce the general credibility of the author. It is one thing to speak
> tongue-in-cheek. It is another issue alltogether to stand on clearly ignorant
> statements resulting from emotion.
>
> Barry Hancock
> Precision Flight Networks
> (949) 300-5510
> bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
>
>>> "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
>>> have, nor do they deserve, either one."
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/18/01 7:18:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au writes:
> Thanks for your good news... it is great to hear that Lucille is going to
> stay in her good home. Nice to predict that as a result we will no doubt
>
ME TOO....................It is great to hear that Lucile will still be in
your loving care!! I cant imagine here sleeping under someone else's roof.
Now get the training and GO- FLY!!! Oop,s I forgot, we cant yet, but soon I
hope (pray)....jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | blake hermel <bhermel(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | IFR isnt that bad. |
Many of us havent thought about this but, as many of you may or may not know, Helicopters
are actually worse off right now than us fixed wing boys,and girls,
most of them are VFR only aircraft, I have a Jet Ranger in my hangar now that
got grounded while doing powerline patrol in my area, unfortunately he cant go
anywhere, at least most of us can go IFR from point A to B in our planes. Just
a thought.
Blake
>From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
>To: rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au, mdcmd(at)ms-online.com, commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Re: good news
>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:00:27 EDT
>
>In a message dated 9/18/01 7:18:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au writes:
>
>
> > Thanks for your good news... it is great to hear that Lucille is going to
> > stay in her good home. Nice to predict that as a result we will no doubt
> >
>
>ME TOO....................It is great to hear that Lucile will still be in
>your loving care!! I cant imagine here sleeping under someone else's roof.
>Now get the training and GO- FLY!!! Oop,s I forgot, we cant yet, but soon I
>hope (pray)....jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
Hi All !
Earlier, Milt said:
"In fact I think we should send Al to Kabul and he can kill em all with
redneck jokes".
Yeh! Trouble is, that's believable, especially if you lend him 'that' shirt
of yours !!
Keep 'em comin',
Barry C
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Well Said Barry!!!
I can tell that you have indeed probably heard from the same guy that I was
stupid enough to debate for a day or two.
He is indeed entitled to his opinion, and free speech is a good thing. But
anyone who wants to talk about how wrong America is, and how unprepared we
are probably picked the wrong group, and the wrong time to do it.
Nico, you are correct!!!! I did say I would not piss on him if he was on
fire.!!
He works much like a terrorist, emialing individuals with insulting remarks
about our country and our military. Never saying it to the whole group, as
the moral outrage would be so great as to have him banned I would think.
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
If you strapped six 55gal. drums of gas in your plane and the duct taped the
ole 16 guage to the out side of the cabin and have grabbed a sectional of
the Middle East and are ready for departure then suddenly you realise you
don't know a damn thing about IFR flight plans, you might be a RED-NECKED
COMMANDER PILOT!! BIG AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Laxson <wlaxson(at)corecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR isnt that bad. |
Here in Alaska, we have returned to full VFR flight status. We can't
fly to Canada VFR yet however.
The 675 back country hunters and other bush recreational folks that were
stranded for almost a week have now been picked up or resupplied. The
local bush air carriers carred stacks of papers with them to prove to
their skeptical clients that they had not been arbitrarily abandoned.
Powerline and pipeline patrol VHF has been exempted from the IFR
requirements nation wide with the caveat that only that portion where
inspection is being done can be flown VHF. Enroute must be IFR.
I can't imagine that the FAA will keep VFR shut down elsewhere for much
longer. It will kill general aviation if they do. I know that there
are a lot of back country bush strips in Idaho where the only link to
the outside world is the VFR airplane. This situation must also exist
in most of the larger western states.
Bill Laxson
Anchorage, Alaska
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
Paul,
It's funny that you would use that phrase. I've used it myself to describe
an ex wife!
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: Afghanistan
> Nico, you are correct!!!! I did say I would not piss on him if he was on
> fire.!!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I just cant believe y'all didnt just love my shirt.
Wait till next year.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
BOTH!........now if I had a shirt like.......
----- Original Message -----
From: Milt <mdcmd@ms-online.com>
To: Jim Crunkleton ; ;
;
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Afghanistan
> Is that the ex-wife/cousin or the ex-wife/aunt???
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net>
> To: ; ;
>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 3:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Afghanistan
>
>
> > Paul,
> > It's funny that you would use that phrase. I've used it myself to
describe
> > an ex wife!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
> > To: ;
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: Afghanistan
> >
> >
> > > Nico, you are correct!!!! I did say I would not piss on him if he was
> on
> > > fire.!!
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PhilHackett(at)aol.com <PhilHackett(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Attached a reasoned essay. |
Sir,
I attach the reasoned essay which I hoped someone would at least pause to
think about. However, the point has been reinforced time and time again by
Messrs Paul Reason, Milt, and Van Niekerk. America does not listen to the
rest of the world, and is unable to see itself as the rest of the world sees
it. And you still wonder!
I am no Liberal! Just a normal, worldly wise individual. It is interesting
that so many other people wish to disassociate themselves from the above
mentioned extremists, who are frankly a disgrace to their country, and
humanity. There views and attitudes are an utter disgrace in this year 2001.
I am utterly disgusted by them, and frankly have lost any desire to set foot
in America again.
Please remove me from the list.
Goodbye
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Attached a reasoned essay. |
PhilHackett(at)aol.com wrote:
> I am utterly disgusted by them, and frankly have lost any desire to
> set foot in America again.
Before anybody trashes the list trying to reply to this, be aware that
I have removed Mr Hackett from the distribution. If you care to
respond to him, please do it directly and not to the list.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john williams <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi ALL,
This came into my office today. I printed a copy and sent it to one of the local
radio stations down here in the Fla, Keys. They read it on the air today. Sorry
it's kinda hard to read. It took a little work and shrinkage to get on to
one sheet for the scanner. Thought everyone might enjoy reading it. It's a text
document that was scanned as an image, so you'll either have to zoom out or
in as necassary to get it the proper size to read but it's worth it!
-John Williams
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Attached a reasoned essay. |
heh.
Well, I personally understand how the rest of the world sees America. I do not
agree with it though.
The rest of the world wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want the billions
of dollars in aid. They want the technology, they want, they want, they
want. There is a price for that want. Then they want the US to come to their
aid when their countries have internal strife. Then they want to blame America
for their problems, then they want America to rebuild them.
Remember this, and REMEMBER IT WELL. If the United States (and there is much debate
about this next statement) had not allowed Japan to attack Pearl harbor,
the United Stated would NOT have gotten into WWII.
Now Mr. Phil. Had WE, America, The United States of America, the Democratic capitalists
we are, NOT gotten involved, had those wartime accidents NOT happened,
which I can assure you the Brits made plenty too, shot down not only their own,
but allies too. That is part of war, it happens,..LIVE WITH IT and get over
it. Had we NOT been there you would be speaking German, under the German flag
paying homage to a German tyrant, as would all of Europe.
Yes the U.S. DID the major part in rebuilding Britain, Japan, Germany, France and
just about every other country in the world after WWII. It is because of this
rebuilding that America shot themselves in the foot in the steel industry.
YOU ALL had factories that were almost 60 years newer, and could produce steel
fare cheaper, which almost ruined us and our economy since the main line of our
economy was based on Steel since the industrial revolution.
It is Solely because of OUR (American) success and OUR space programs, and OUR
politics the you and the rest of the world have Cell phones, satellite communications,
and live as well as you do.
I find is sad that you feel the way you do about Americans. I think you feel this
way because of some perceived wrong that you feel was intentional. Well guess
what. It was most likely not.
The next time you think America is so bad, look into the British Governments income
and see how much of it comes directly from the U.S. in loans, grants, and
freebies. The British receives a vast amount of wealth made and generated in
and by the United States. I cannot recall the last time I looked at a label on
clothes, cars, motorcycles, or any other product and saw the markings, "Made
in the UK., or MADE in Britain. I am sure they exists, but there are not that
many of them. They all say, Made in China, Made in Taiwan, Made in Japan, Made
in the USA. And pretty much in that order.
Mr. Phil. You show the same ungrateful attitude that the rest of the world shows.
They wan, they demand, that because our this countries wealth that we GIVE
them everything we give, we provide, we rush to aid in their natural disasters.
Then they say bugger off you American swine.
I personally think the USA shout cease and desists from GIVING ANY money at all
in any form to any country that they did not earn in the form of providing a
service. But then as I said before they would all starve.
If you feel you don't want to step foot in America. That is your choice, and should
be respected. But I would also put it to you that if you feel that strongly
you simply should NOT ever buy an American product, or consciously receive
any benefit from buying selling or using anything from the USA, including movies,
food, clothes, cars, medicine, medical supplies... I think you can live up
to your personal feelings. I think you can easily refrain from supporting anything
to do with the USA, and at the same time NOT work against it, but you MUST
not derive benefit either in order to maintain your stated commitment. You
may find that you rely on the US as much as the rest of the world does.
We are not the "Colonies" any longer and have not been since the late 1800's to
early 1900's. Yes Great Britain has been around a lot longer, but, does this
attitude stem from the fact that the proverbial student have become not only the
teacher, but the Sensei and that is what is really resented?
----- Original Message -----
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:44 PM
Subject: Attached a reasoned essay.
Sir,
I attach the reasoned essay which I hoped someone would at least pause to think
about. However, the point has been reinforced time and time again by Messrs
Paul Reason, Milt, and Van Niekerk. America does not listen to the rest of the
world, and is unable to see itself as the rest of the world sees it. And you
still wonder!
I am no Liberal! Just a normal, worldly wise individual. It is interesting that
so many other people wish to disassociate themselves from the above mentioned
extremists, who are frankly a disgrace to their country, and humanity. There
views and attitudes are an utter disgrace in this year 2001.
I am utterly disgusted by them, and frankly have lost any desire to set foot
in America again.
Please remove me from the list.
Goodbye
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
CommnderLand;
Got this today from a friend, I don't know what the answers are, BUT, I for
one am glad we have the President we have, the Cabinet members we have, and the
America we have. There are no easy answers, and a lot of innocent people will
suffer, BUT, we still have to get rid of this evil, and I for one believe
only America and hopefully with her allies can do this. I support and pray for
wisdom for our leaders, I hope you will also.
Don
Subject: more to think about
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan
back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that
this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do
with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral
damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit
discussing
whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard
because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years
I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell
anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.
There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the
atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those!
monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're
not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is
a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis.
When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people
of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity.
They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult
if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the
rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the
Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated,
suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are
500,000 disabled ! orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy,
no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying
these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land
mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few
of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to
the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of
it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate
their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off
from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all
that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would
they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan,
only the Taliban ! eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd
slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled
orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But
flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against
the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only
be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people
they've been raping all this time
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now
speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is
to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly
to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the
belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral
qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand.
What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just ! because
some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan
to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because
to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would
they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be
first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going.
We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly
what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements.
It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the
West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world
into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks
a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing
left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view.
He's probably wrong,! in the end the West would win, whatever that would
mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just
theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
Elegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote. This
bitter man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It is
tradgic that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us
who are already educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach
doom and gloom are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
Neither are they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address
PhilHackett(at)aol.com be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say
"I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow,
especially those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual. I don't
know what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input to
help me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think
from someone who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only
recipient of this useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand the
reality of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on your
home turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the
capabilities of our military and political power based on our past
performance. You may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom
walk around fat, dumb, and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you
*clearly* don't understand is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the
most successful country on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble to face
incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed the
people on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage.
We are doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take
pride in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about
problems on this list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." - Colin
Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem
that must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Attached a reasoned essay. |
We are not the "Colonies" any longer and have not been since the late 1800s
to early 1900s. Yes Great Britain has been around a lot longer, but, does
this attitude stem from the fact that the proverbial student have become not
only the teacher, but the Sensei and that is what is really resented?
Well done, Mark. I did not read the so called "reasoned essay," which I'm
sure was totally lacking there of.
I do have one more comment for you, Phil. Thank you for letting us vent a
little frustration with you as our punching bag...NOW PISS OFF and go eat
some of that meat pie you call food.
In a battle of wits, you ran out of ammo with the opposition just warming
up. You see, that is the difference between people like you and people like
us. When the going get's tough for your type, you run away *calling* names.
When the going gets tough for us, we get going...kicking ass and *taking*
names.
Thank you also, Phil, for dispelling the rumor that hoof-and-mouth disease
is limited to four legged animals who slosh around in thier own mess. On
second thought, never mind, as I'm guessing you probably take it on all
fours as well....
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | An open letter........ |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Okay guys - the litter has been removed from the house as promised.
Here's the scoop - I have about a half dozen pending subscription
requests to the chatlist. I'm going to add them shortly - lets
show the newbies what a fine group of people we are now. (remember
the flyin??? :-)
We've debated current issues enough that I think most opportunity
for value/healing/reflection/etc is mostly past and the list is
beginning to turn into a shambles of rambles (some pretty good
ones in my opinion, but off-topic anyway).
Unless something new occurs which warrants our collective wisedome,
how about we talk about Commanders again for a while. I know that
I'm pretty wound up about getting my "NEW" Commander and have quite
a few discussions to pose regarding some aspects I don't know anything
about. (how to use radar, pressurization, autopilot tips, etc).
Might even have to inject a "my airplane is studlier than yours"
message just to stir the pot :-0
I am keeping a regular eye on our airspace status and will post an
update as soon as anything concrete is announced.
If y'all don't play good now I will be forced to go back to the
archives and re-post all of the fuel sump postings to distract
ya!!!!
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
Is that the ex-wife/cousin or the ex-wife/aunt???
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net>
To: ; ;
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Afghanistan
> Paul,
> It's funny that you would use that phrase. I've used it myself to describe
> an ex wife!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
> To: ;
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Afghanistan
>
>
> > Nico, you are correct!!!! I did say I would not piss on him if he was
on
> > fire.!!
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | blake hermel <bhermel(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Attached a reasoned essay. |
Is this message from "HACKETT" a virus?? Can anybody tell us..... I dont know if
I dare open it......wouldnt surprise me,
Blake
>From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
>To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Attached a reasoned essay.
>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:44:20 EDT
>
>Sir,
>
>I attach the reasoned essay which I hoped someone would at least pause to
>think about. However, the point has been reinforced time and time again by
>Messrs Paul Reason, Milt, and Van Niekerk. America does not listen to the
>rest of the world, and is unable to see itself as the rest of the world sees
>it. And you still wonder!
>
>I am no Liberal! Just a normal, worldly wise individual. It is interesting
>that so many other people wish to disassociate themselves from the above
>mentioned extremists, who are frankly a disgrace to their country, and
>humanity. There views and attitudes are an utter disgrace in this year 2001.
>
>I am utterly disgusted by them, and frankly have lost any desire to set foot
>in America again.
>
>Please remove me from the list.
>
>Goodbye
>
>Phil
><< nksforyourviews.doc >>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Attached a reasoned essay. |
I responded to both. I felt my rebuttal was most apropriate.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Attached a reasoned essay.
> PhilHackett(at)aol.com wrote:
> > I am utterly disgusted by them, and frankly have lost any desire to
> > set foot in America again.
>
>
>
> Before anybody trashes the list trying to reply to this, be aware that
> I have removed Mr Hackett from the distribution. If you care to
> respond to him, please do it directly and not to the list.
>
> Chris
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Martyn <vertigo(at)whidbey.net> |
| Subject: | Reducing the Public's Fear of a GA Threat |
Here's my idea for reducing the non-flying public's irrational fear of
GA:
Every one paint big Stars and Bars on your aircraft. That way, every
time one of you lucky IFR pretty-boys goes flying, the fearful public
will see a sign of your patriotism instead of a liability overhead.
When they drive by their local community field, they'll see the rest
of us - the grounded VFR fleet - plainly showing our colors too, in
proud display. As with all public-relations campaigns, image is
everything.
Vinyl art is a very quick and easily removable alternative. If there
is enough demand, I could get quantities made up and mailed out.
Attached is a small snapshot of my bird dressed up for the occasion.
Jim Martyn
Oak Harbor, WA
vertigo(at)whidbey.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Attached a reasoned essay. |
Re: Attached a reasoned essay.Hahaha. Barry, tell us, how do you *really* feel?
Actually I was finally thinking that Phil & I actually agree on something: He has
no desire to set foot in America, and I agree totally.....I have no desire
to *let* him set foot in America.
Luckily I know that the rest of the Britain is a moral, intelligent, loyal-to-her-allies,
determined and effective bunch. I was greatly moved by the break in
tradition at the Changing of the Guard when the Star Spangled Banner was played.
And now, I shall cease before taking any cheap potshots at Phil. Better that he
just fade away.
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Mark Woodley ; PhilHackett(at)aol.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Attached a reasoned essay.
We are not the "Colonies" any longer and have not been since the late 1800s
to early 1900s. Yes Great Britain has been around a lot longer, but, does this
attitude stem from the fact that the proverbial student have become not only
the teacher, but the Sensei and that is what is really resented?
Well done, Mark. I did not read the so called "reasoned essay," which I'm
sure was totally lacking there of.
I do have one more comment for you, Phil. Thank you for letting us vent a
little frustration with you as our punching bag...NOW PISS OFF and go eat some
of that meat pie you call food.
In a battle of wits, you ran out of ammo with the opposition just warming up.
You see, that is the difference between people like you and people like us.
When the going get's tough for your type, you run away *calling* names. When
the going gets tough for us, we get going...kicking ass and *taking* names.
Thank you also, Phil, for dispelling the rumor that hoof-and-mouth disease
is limited to four legged animals who slosh around in thier own mess. On second
thought, never mind, as I'm guessing you probably take it on all fours as well....
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR isnt that bad. |
In a message dated 09/18/01 22:31:38 Pacific Daylight Time, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
writes:
> you are making the same mistake many people make when dealing with the FAA.
> They assume that they are dealing with "reasonable men." I can assure you
> that they are not. I just left the AOPA site. It isn't what they said
> that is bad, it is what is not being said. The recording at the SEA/FSS
> was changed today from "Part 91 aircraft are ground stopped until further
> notice" to "all part 91 aircraft are ground stopped indefinitely"
First off, SEA FSS should change the wording of that message. Part 91
aircraft are allowed to fly -- IFR only.
This is one of the rare instances that I'll defend (or at least excuse) the
FAA. This is NOT their call. It's coming from the military and national
security agencies.
There is something known as SCATANA from the cold war days and this is the
first time it's been used.
If you're really bored -- or tired of reading the same email forwards over
and over, go to this site to get an idea of what's grounding you.
http://www.brook.edu/fp/projects/nucwcost/box3-1.htm
I flew today, first time since Tuesday. It was just a little jaunt from Las
Vegas to Fresno, California. It was not so bad, but also weird. There is
an aura of paranoia on the ramp, very visible security: the parking lot(s) at
the base of the tower are closed off. There is only one gate open onto the
G.A. ramp and we had to be escorted everywhere.
This is also THE National Guard base that's covering the West Coast and every
few hours a flight of F-16s would take off and go away using full after
burner until gone from sight/sound. There are full battle dressed guards
around their perimeter.
There is now the local Urban-Legend about the mechanic who taxied a
Gulfstream with the flaps down who got surrounded by a SWAT team, pulled out
of the plane by his hair, thrown on the pavement, had his head stood on and a
live shot gun put to his head until it was determined that he was doing a
maintenance test.
Believe me, you guys don't want to fly just yet. Well, I know you _do_, but
give it a bit more time.
Now on to more pleasant things: Chris, exactly what is it about your studly
new Commander you want to know? Ask away, my boy!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Attached a reasoned essay. |
BITE ME YOU ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 4:44 PM
Subject: Attached a reasoned essay.
Sir,
I attach the reasoned essay which I hoped someone would at least pause to think
about. However, the point has been reinforced time and time again by Messrs
Paul Reason, Milt, and Van Niekerk. America does not listen to the rest of the
world, and is unable to see itself as the rest of the world sees it. And you
still wonder!
I am no Liberal! Just a normal, worldly wise individual. It is interesting that
so many other people wish to disassociate themselves from the above mentioned
extremists, who are frankly a disgrace to their country, and humanity. There
views and attitudes are an utter disgrace in this year 2001.
I am utterly disgusted by them, and frankly have lost any desire to set foot
in America again.
Please remove me from the list.
Goodbye
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
We did really, it's just we're all insanely jealous !
Been scouring the shops for a look-alike, but no joy !!
Wait until next year? I shudder to think what you'll be wearing.
Keep 'em comin'
Barry C
Milt
cc:
19/09/2001 Subject: Shirt
01:58
I just cant believe y'all didnt just love my shirt.
Wait till next year.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com <RnJThompson(at)aol.com> |
Hi all,
Enough bagging of different opions. Always thought freedom of speach,
religion etc came first.
How many of you have combat experience?
A number of thoughts,
It very seldom turns out as expected.
If anything can go wrong it will.
The thing that you are most reliant on is the thing that fails first.
You start out full of patriotic bullshit and end up just happy to be alive.
BECAUSE A LOT OF YOUR MATES ARE GOING TO BE DEAD.
20 years later you will turn around and wonder if it was all worth it. One
thing is for certain you will look upon the world in a very basic fashion and
see it for what it is devoid of all the bullshit.You wont have too much time
for polititions.
I have watched the list with great interest , seen many different ideas and
thoughts from many different people. One thing is for sure, TIME WILL TELL.
Reflect back in a years time, or 10 years time and judge ones thoughts then
in relation to now.
Believe me the actions your nation takes now will affect the rest of your
lives. I hope your leaders choose their path wisely. I believe they will do a
better job than some of those that have gone before (like Milts buddy
CLINTON).
Enough crap from me. Flying is good out here. Ran my 152 out to our field for
a meeting today,Geeze those things are slow.
680E is coming along well , Ill post some photos of what a wheel well should
look like, better than new. Eat your hearts out.
Hope the FAA lets you all fly soon. Funny how those that are least to blame
always get the short end of the stick.
Best wishes,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
G'day Chris,
Looking forward to learning more about your new bird!
Over time I have always regarded the 680FP as the celebrated "sportscar" of
the stable and will be interested to hear of your emerging thoughts and
impressions.
I have often pondered what additional maintenance/inspections on a 680F
airframe are required to ensure the integrity of the pressurisation vessel
over several decades.
Let's get started!
Oh by the way... don't forget that the very first step in flying a sports
car is acquiring one of Milt's shirts!!
Cheers and beers
Russell
> Okay guys - the litter has been removed from the house as promised.
>
> Here's the scoop - I have about a half dozen pending subscription
> requests to the chatlist. I'm going to add them shortly - lets
> show the newbies what a fine group of people we are now. (remember
> the flyin??? :-)
>
> We've debated current issues enough that I think most opportunity
> for value/healing/reflection/etc is mostly past and the list is
> beginning to turn into a shambles of rambles (some pretty good
> ones in my opinion, but off-topic anyway).
>
> Unless something new occurs which warrants our collective wisedome,
> how about we talk about Commanders again for a while. I know that
> I'm pretty wound up about getting my "NEW" Commander and have quite
> a few discussions to pose regarding some aspects I don't know anything
> about. (how to use radar, pressurization, autopilot tips, etc).
> Might even have to inject a "my airplane is studlier than yours"
> message just to stir the pot :-0
>
>
> I am keeping a regular eye on our airspace status and will post an
> update as soon as anything concrete is announced.
>
> If y'all don't play good now I will be forced to go back to the
> archives and re-post all of the fuel sump postings to distract
> ya!!!!
>
> Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Attached a reasoned essay. |
SO LONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:44 PM
Subject: Attached a reasoned essay.
Sir,
I attach the reasoned essay which I hoped someone would at least pause to think
about. However, the point has been reinforced time and time again by Messrs
Paul Reason, Milt, and Van Niekerk. America does not listen to the rest of the
world, and is unable to see itself as the rest of the world sees it. And you
still wonder!
I am no Liberal! Just a normal, worldly wise individual. It is interesting that
so many other people wish to disassociate themselves from the above mentioned
extremists, who are frankly a disgrace to their country, and humanity. There
views and attitudes are an utter disgrace in this year 2001.
I am utterly disgusted by them, and frankly have lost any desire to set foot
in America again.
Please remove me from the list.
Goodbye
Phil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Geez Chris, don't throw me in that fuel pump "briar patch". I'll be good, I
promise.
(p.s. you got time enough to make a couple of changes to my for sale
posting?)
regards, rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 8:29 PM
Subject: Latest...
> Okay guys - the litter has been removed from the house as promised.
>
> Here's the scoop - I have about a half dozen pending subscription
> requests to the chatlist. I'm going to add them shortly - lets
> show the newbies what a fine group of people we are now. (remember
> the flyin??? :-)
>
> We've debated current issues enough that I think most opportunity
> for value/healing/reflection/etc is mostly past and the list is
> beginning to turn into a shambles of rambles (some pretty good
> ones in my opinion, but off-topic anyway).
>
> Unless something new occurs which warrants our collective wisedome,
> how about we talk about Commanders again for a while. I know that
> I'm pretty wound up about getting my "NEW" Commander and have quite
> a few discussions to pose regarding some aspects I don't know anything
> about. (how to use radar, pressurization, autopilot tips, etc).
> Might even have to inject a "my airplane is studlier than yours"
> message just to stir the pot :-0
>
>
> I am keeping a regular eye on our airspace status and will post an
> update as soon as anything concrete is announced.
>
> If y'all don't play good now I will be forced to go back to the
> archives and re-post all of the fuel sump postings to distract
> ya!!!!
>
> Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
JB,
Is that fuel pump covered by an AD?
I didn't have a leaking pump but in the course of complying with the fuel
pump AD ( I believe its 98-12-6) I managed to get mine to bypass internally (
I didn't even open it up) and now its running full stream out the case drain.
Gotta take it off and open it up this time for a rebuild according to HM.
It's the same type pump as the electric boost pumps (which I'm sure you are
aware of). Do I assume correctly that the boost pumps in the wheel well are
covered by the same AD as the Engine Driven pumps? That means four pumps affected
by this AD (by pump make and model) I've got Romec 9080's on the engines.
Don't know yet whats in the wheel well.
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 9:34 PM
Subject: OILY
HI KIDS..........
Well, if I cant fly her I can still smell her!! I just finished
OHing the RH retract cylinder. Tripple 2 is amazing. Just before the flyin the
Sump drain started to leak, the flaps fell down, the LH boost pump started
leaking and the RH retract cyl puked as well!!!!!!!!! I couldnt believe it!
But, I was so busy with prepeations that I just wiped it off and hope knowbody
would notice.
Well, come the flyin and the old girl fixed every one of those problems,
it sat for two days with its little flaps up tight and leaked not a drop.
But now it must be taking all this no-flying out on me. The boost pump
leaks like a sieve and I gave up on the sump drain (you can only pound on it
so hard) I finally rebuilt the retract cyl.
I have to tell you though that it is good to smell hyrahaulic fluid again,
it reminds me of a better time.
I am ordering up a G/S so I can reenter the IFR world. Planed to do that
anyway but now seems the only way to fly. I was at Aero Air this afternoon
talking to Swede and he said the helicopter guys are filling IFR out to the VOR
and return for test flights so people are getting creative.
Keep the faith.............jb
PS What shirt???
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR isn't that bad. |
CloudCraft(at)aol.com said:
>This is one of the rare instances that I'll defend (or at least excuse) the
>FAA. This is NOT their call. It's coming from the military and national
>security agencies.
>There is something known as SCATANA from the cold war days and this is the
>first time it's been used.
Keith is quite right, the FAA has their hands tied on this one.
We (USAF pilots) are required to review SCATANA procedures once a year in
case
they activate the system. ie required transponder codes, IFF and
intercept procedures etc.
But in this case the enemy is not outside the US trying to get in but
rather they
are already inside our boarders, so this scenario has a slight Dr.
Strangelove twist to it.
>If you're really bored -- or tired of reading the same email forwards over
>and over, go to this site to get an idea of what's grounding you.
>http://www.brook.edu/fp/projects/nucwcost/box3-1.htm
Thanks for the web link.
>I flew today, first time since Tuesday. It was just a little jaunt from Las
>Vegas to Fresno, California. It was not so bad, but also weird. There is
>an aura of paranoia on the ramp, very visible security: the parking lot(s)
>at the base of the tower are closed off. There is only one gate open onto
the
>G.A. ramp and we had to be escorted everywhere.
I had a great flight from RHV-COS-CDC-RHV in the Cmdr, put about 10 hours
on the meter.
Lots of talk on the radio for those guys wanting to traverse the Rockies
with no O2.
(You can't fly an MEA of 16200 without pressurization or O2, what are
these guys thinking?).
The controllers were very polite considering the circumstances.
Overall it was a very scenic flight considering the current situation.
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
Big Al,
You are just too much... to think of committing your favourite ole 16 gauge
to such a violent end!!
Keep them coming from Lucille territory!
Cheers and beers
> If you strapped six 55gal. drums of gas in your plane and the duct taped the
> ole 16 guage to the out side of the cabin and have grabbed a sectional of
> the Middle East and are ready for departure then suddenly you realise you
> don't know a damn thing about IFR flight plans, you might be a RED-NECKED
> COMMANDER PILOT!! BIG AL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
As most of you know, I have been working on the purchase of a new
Commander. After many years of searching, saving, and studying,
my choice was to acquire a 680FP with the MRRPM "Pursuit 800"
conversions. For those who don't know what this is, commander guru
Dick MacCoon pre-dated TCAC's "Rennisance" overhauls by decades.
He did a major refurb including many updates and modifications, most
notably the replacement of the IGSO-540 engines with a pair of Lycoming
eight-cylinder IO-720s with Rayjay turbochargers. (400hp continuous).
Pressurization is changed from a cabin supercharger to "bleed air"
and air-conditioning was added as well.
For those who've never had the opportunity to see one of these rare
birds, the work that was involved is incredible. The engine mounts
alone are truely works of art!
Anyway, I have never flown one of these birds before and although
I'm fairly knowledgable about the 720 Lycs, I have some questions
regarding the "book" operational proceedures.
I note that it is suggested that the engines be run lean-of-peak.
Without opening up this conversation again, I'd like to know if
any of you have any personal experience running either a 720 OR a
540 LOP for extended times and what results you saw. (FYI, I'm
not a proponant of LOP and don't do it in my Viking - just curious
if anyone has any long-term hard personal data)
Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
potential for mis-interpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
tips and techniques?
Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/19/2001 11:15:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au writes:
> If you strapped six 55gal. drums of gas in your plane and the duct taped the
> >
THIS IS WHY THERE IS CURRENTLY NO VFR IN THE USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
OH NO, MISTER BILL . . . NOT THE SUMP POSTINGS!!! Jim Jorgensen
-----Original Message-----
From:
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:29 PM
To:
commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject:
Latest...
Okay guys - the litter has been removed from the house as promised.
Here's the scoop - I have about a half dozen pending subscription
requests to the chatlist. I'm going to add them shortly - lets
show the newbies what a fine group of people we are now. (remember
the flyin??? :-)
We've debated current issues enough that I think most opportunity
for value/healing/reflection/etc is mostly past and the list is
beginning to turn into a shambles of rambles (some pretty good
ones in my opinion, but off-topic anyway).
Unless something new occurs which warrants our collective wisedome,
how about we talk about Commanders again for a while. I know that
I'm pretty wound up about getting my "NEW" Commander and have quite
a few discussions to pose regarding some aspects I don't know anything
about. (how to use radar, pressurization, autopilot tips, etc).
Might even have to inject a "my airplane is studlier than yours"
message just to stir the pot :-0
I am keeping a regular eye on our airspace status and will post an
update as soon as anything concrete is announced.
If y'all don't play good now I will be forced to go back to the
archives and re-post all of the fuel sump postings to distract
ya!!!!
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
PLEASE, Chris,
Not the dreaded fuel sump again.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
See!!!!
JB didnt even notice. Thats cause I looked just like all the people he sees on
a daily basis munching on their Granola bars.
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Latest...
In a message dated 9/19/01 6:42:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au
writes:
Milt's shirts!!
WAHT SHIRTS??????????/jb
________________________________________________________________________________
There is a chance I may add another Doc to our group soon which means I might
get to take an extended vacation someday.
My plan is to fly (yes) in my commander) to England to visit Barry, then to Ireland
to search for ancestors( Dont tell Barry Im Irish), then to Scotland then
home.
Obviously Ive never done this before so I thought since you guys aint flyin you
could help with advice ie:
Route
Dos and Donts
Best time of year
Fuel availability
Permits required
Charts
Parts and repair facilities
Etc.
This trip is clearly in the future but any advice will be helpful. I asked JB for
advice on route to HIO and he said fly high very high.
Why I amy even go visit mr phill hackett while im there and see if hed like to
comment on my shirt.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Matlick <rkm7649p(at)fred.net> |
Go to http://www.aopa.org/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john williams <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | VFR --Returns--Kinda |
Guys--Check out the aopa site at www.aopa.org FAA is supposed to open the skys
to "limited VFR" starting this afternoon. The formal announcement is supposed
to be between 4 and 6 this afternoon
john
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
There is a former airline captain who does or did go around the country
doing seminars on the operation of radar. He also made videos. I will try
to find out from other who it was. What kind is it, mono-chrom, digital,
color?
If you were to bring it to Orlando and take me for a ride, I think I could
help:) We, in Florida have lots of targets to paint.......of course I guess
the have bigger targets in OK.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 9:59 AM
Subject: 680FP
>
> As most of you know, I have been working on the purchase of a new
> Commander. After many years of searching, saving, and studying,
> my choice was to acquire a 680FP with the MRRPM "Pursuit 800"
> conversions. For those who don't know what this is, commander guru
> Dick MacCoon pre-dated TCAC's "Rennisance" overhauls by decades.
> He did a major refurb including many updates and modifications, most
> notably the replacement of the IGSO-540 engines with a pair of Lycoming
> eight-cylinder IO-720s with Rayjay turbochargers. (400hp continuous).
> Pressurization is changed from a cabin supercharger to "bleed air"
> and air-conditioning was added as well.
> For those who've never had the opportunity to see one of these rare
> birds, the work that was involved is incredible. The engine mounts
> alone are truely works of art!
>
> Anyway, I have never flown one of these birds before and although
> I'm fairly knowledgable about the 720 Lycs, I have some questions
> regarding the "book" operational proceedures.
> I note that it is suggested that the engines be run lean-of-peak.
> Without opening up this conversation again, I'd like to know if
> any of you have any personal experience running either a 720 OR a
> 540 LOP for extended times and what results you saw. (FYI, I'm
> not a proponant of LOP and don't do it in my Viking - just curious
> if anyone has any long-term hard personal data)
>
> Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
> familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
> potential for mis-interpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
> for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
> tips and techniques?
>
> Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
> suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
> POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
>
> Chris
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP - L.O.P., Radar, Fire supression |
In a message dated 9/19/01 11:22:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
> I note that it is suggested that the engines be run lean-of-peak.
> Without opening up this conversation again, I'd like to know if
> any of you have any personal experience running either a 720 OR a
>
Chris, at the risk of opening the LOP debate: It's OK to run a Lycoming
IGSO-540 at lean of peak; Lycoming has graphs to show why it's better for
cylinder head temps, etc. HOWEVER, the IGSO-540s were designed around higher
lead content fuel and valve guides, etc. need a richer mixture for that
reason. File that under "Modern Problems."
On to the turbo-normalized IO-720. Now you're dealing with a RayJay instead
of a supercharger and it has a TIT (turbine inlet temperature) limit of 1600
degrees. You will only be able to keep that temperature down via richer than
peak mixtures. You could run much lower power settings and LOP to work
within the turbocharger's limits, but that's not why you are buying an Mr.
RPM FP, is it? ;-)
>
> Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
> familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
> potential for misinterpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
> for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
> tips and techniques?
Lots to cover here and it would put everyone to sleep if I start with the
intent to give more than a cursory few tips. Take a class. That being said,
you do need to find out how good (or bad) your unit is. Some airborne
radars make the pax feel safe, but don't give the crew any useful info at all.
Regrettably, you'll have to find some weather you can visually avoid and see
how your display responds.
Quick and dirty (filthy?) in level flight, aim your dish down until the
screen clutters all up. Now slowly tilt up until the ground clutter cleans
up -- just up to the edge of your most distant selected range ring. This is
a good starting point for most light aircraft radars.
Remember, your dish is probably not stabilized in every axis, so in turns
you'll get mighty returns in that direction until wings level again. Also,
climbing or descending will cause you to readjust tilt.
Regardless of what radar your new bird has, it's the nose cone that will
degrade its performance more than anything, Commander-Aero has a resource
for reworking radomes, which is an art.
>
> Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
> suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
> POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
>
This is the first time I've heard of this on an RPM, let alone a Commander.
Does this have fire detection as part of the package, or just fire
suppression?
In the pretty boy airplanes (as one of our new members call us) fire
suppression systems either shut off all fluids to the engine compartment
automatically, or, are deployed after the crew does this.
Same for you. Shut off all fluids to the engine -- fuel, oil, hydraulic --
then blow the fire suppression system.
On the RPM, the oil shut off is actually gone as it no longer uses a dry sump
engine and 5 gallon oil tank. The hydraulic and fuel shut offs are
conveniently close together on the overhead.
OK, that's a lot of info to assimilate in one email. We'll go deeper, later.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RNCP, VFR coming? |
Jim,
Simper Fi.
I just got a note from Aero-news.net that limited VFR would be allowed later
today.
Stay tuned for further news announcements.
Also you can check www.AOPA.org <http://www.aopa.org/> . They will have the
latest news.
I can not answer you question as to why.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Furlong5(at)aol.com [mailto:Furlong5(at)aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 1:37 PM
To: rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au; allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com;
commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: RNCP
In a message dated 9/19/2001 11:15:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au writes:
If you strapped six 55gal. drums of gas in your plane and the duct taped the
> ole 16 guage to the out side of the cabin and have
THIS IS WHY THERE IS CURRENTLY NO VFR IN THE USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | [NBAA-avmgr] DOD and Senate efforts to destroy all Historic |
/ Vintage Mi...
Commander guys,
I know some of you are war bird enthusiasts. I pass this on to you.
Wing Commander Gordon
In a message dated 9/19/01 12:38:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Alan.Anderson(at)futurefirst.com writes:
> FYI:
> For any of you all personally or who have bosses that own and or have the
> unique opportunity to fly Vintage Military Aircraft, you need to read
> "DoD's Draconian Effort to Destroy Your Military Equipment" on the website
> www.aero-news.net. H.R. 4205, Sec 361 was previously defeated with the
> help of many to include the EAA and the AOPA, but the recent tragic events
> on September 11, 2001 has regenerated efforts to push this through again.
> It is now under S. 1416, Sec 1062, and will require the destruction of all
> Vintage Warbirds. I know this sounds absurd to many, but this our new
> reality. Many of us are of military background and must not let this
> craziness destroy this Countries military history! Imagine our future
> without the sound of the radial engine or the sound of the P-51 Mustang - I
> CAN'T!!!
> Let them know you don't approve!
> Alan Anderson
>
> Alan Anderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Foss <afoss(at)caw.com> |
My plea is strongly not to ban anyone from this list, not to quote scripture and
to generally try to avoid extremely emotional topics in email forums such as
this.
Bottom line it is email, if you don't like what you're getting, simply delete it,
don't read it, respond to the sender, or not...
Civil discourse shouldn't be limited, and when things get inflamatory or too emotional
we need to just rise above it.
andrew
Barry Hancock wrote:
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
Elegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote. This bitter
man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It is tradgic
that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us who are already
educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach doom and gloom
are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution. Neither are
they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address PhilHackett(at)aol.com
be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say "I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow, especially
those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual. I don't know
what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input to help
me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think from
someone who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only recipient of
this useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand the reality
of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on your home
turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the capabilities
of our military and political power based on our past performance. You
may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom walk around fat, dumb,
and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you *clearly* don't understand
is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the most successful country
on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble to face
incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed the people
on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage. We are
doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take pride
in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about problems on this
list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." - Colin Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem that
must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
Chris,
Congratulations on your 680FP with the Mr. RPM 800 conversion. I don't know
much about that conversion except I believe it's non-geared and that's good.
As to your question about operating lean of peak, my experience dates back to
1959 - flying high powered radial engines. Mostly on R2800 through the
4360's. Flew around the world in these airplanes many times and the normal
procedure was to lean LOP. Otherwise our fuel comsuption across the ocean
would have been in some cases not enough to make our destination. Over the
years I have read many articles on this subject and what I have learned from
these readings is the fact that the engines (250 hp or greater, fuel
injected) does not care whether it is being cooled by fuel or air. Since air
is about $2.50 a gal. cheaper than fuel, I choose to cool by air. It was
mentioned to me by one of our own members after I bought my 680FP that he had
a conversation with Mr. RPM and his view point is that running the engines
too rich you're only washing away the oil around the piston... that don't
sound too good neither does it?? As to my further personal experience in
this area, I owned a part 135 operation in Ft. Lauderdale for 6 yrs. Owned
and operated Cessna 402C and numerous other aircraft of that same hp - had 15
pilots and they were all trained in the proper method of leaning the engines
LOP. I had no problems at all reaching TBO on any of the airplanes. The
402, for example, went through three TBOs during that time. What I told them
was to not even attempt to lean during heavy cockpit loads. Wait until every
thing is calm and quiet and put some concentration into the leaning
procedure. It has to be done slowly, methodically and very, very accurately.
Remember the old way of leaning out an engine.... pull the mixture control
back until the engine starts running a little rough and then push the mixture
back up until it smoothes out again... well this is very close to where you
are going to be at 50 degrees LOP.
Good luck with you airplane,
Cap'n Spray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Foss <afoss(at)caw.com> |
I operated my non-turboed 500B LOP and my cherokee before that.
I had great results. Great economy, cool CHT's, clean plugs and oil, nice
white nacelles, smooth engines...
I put a few hundred hours on it LOP and they were great, time will tell,
but I'm a believer.
andrew
Chris Schuermann wrote:
> As most of you know, I have been working on the purchase of a new
> Commander. After many years of searching, saving, and studying,
> my choice was to acquire a 680FP with the MRRPM "Pursuit 800"
> conversions. For those who don't know what this is, commander guru
> Dick MacCoon pre-dated TCAC's "Rennisance" overhauls by decades.
> He did a major refurb including many updates and modifications, most
> notably the replacement of the IGSO-540 engines with a pair of Lycoming
> eight-cylinder IO-720s with Rayjay turbochargers. (400hp continuous).
> Pressurization is changed from a cabin supercharger to "bleed air"
> and air-conditioning was added as well.
> For those who've never had the opportunity to see one of these rare
> birds, the work that was involved is incredible. The engine mounts
> alone are truely works of art!
>
> Anyway, I have never flown one of these birds before and although
> I'm fairly knowledgable about the 720 Lycs, I have some questions
> regarding the "book" operational proceedures.
> I note that it is suggested that the engines be run lean-of-peak.
> Without opening up this conversation again, I'd like to know if
> any of you have any personal experience running either a 720 OR a
> 540 LOP for extended times and what results you saw. (FYI, I'm
> not a proponant of LOP and don't do it in my Viking - just curious
> if anyone has any long-term hard personal data)
>
> Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
> familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
> potential for mis-interpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
> for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
> tips and techniques?
>
> Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
> suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
> POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
>
> Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RNCP, VFR coming? |
In a message dated 9/19/2001 1:08:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tylorh(at)sound.net writes:
>
> Jim,
> Simper Fi.
> I just got a note from Aero-news.net that limited VFR would be allowed
> later today.
> Stay tuned
>
>
THANKS TYLER --- SEMPER FI TO YOU TOO
JIM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
In general, Andrew, I agree with you. However, when someone starts making
personal attacks in private emails, AND USES THE LIST FOR ACCESS to his
targets, he should not be tolerated. None of us made any comments that
warrented the angst and bitterness that was rained upon several of us. I
have been vocal and recognize I will take the brunt of people with views
similar to Andrew's.
One more thing, how can you on one hand say you want "freedom of speech" and
in the next breath tell people to "not quote scripture"??? Additionally, I
have not seen a single post containg scripture or anything resembling it.
As you suggest, if you don't like something rise above it....you can't have
it both ways.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
My plea is strongly not to ban anyone from this list, not to quote scripture
and to generally try to avoid extremely emotional topics in email forums
such as this.
Bottom line it is email, if you don't like what you're getting, simply
delete it, don't read it, respond to the sender, or not...
Civil discourse shouldn't be limited, and when things get inflamatory or too
emotional we need to just rise above it.
andrew
Barry Hancock wrote:
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
Elegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady1 (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote. This
bitter man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It is
tradgic that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us
who are already educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach
doom and gloom are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
Neither are they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address
PhilHackett(at)aol.com be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say
"I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow,
especially those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual. I don't
know what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input to
help me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think
from someone who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only
recipient of this useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand the
reality of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on your
home turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the
capabilities of our military and political power based on our past
performance. You may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom
walk around fat, dumb, and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you
*clearly* don't understand is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the
most successful country on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble to face
incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed the
people on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage.
We are doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take
pride in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about
problems on this list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." - Colin
Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem
that must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radar, Fire suppression |
Hi Chris,
Chris said:
>> Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
>> familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
>> potential for misinterpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
>> for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
>> tips and techniques?
As previously stated best to take a class, read the manual (buy one if
you don't have one), and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. You don't want to
be in a position requiring you to figure this thing out when you really
need it. Best to go out and paint some clouds, rain, and terrain and
then assimilate what you see on the screen to what you see outside.
We use a Bendix 1400C which has terrain search, radar beacon mode, WX
radar etc and
with all of its capabilities sometime it's very useful and sometimes it's
not and this thing costs the tax payers over $35K each which is not even
counting the 1553 data bus connections to the INS and GPS Nav systems.
But most importantly you don't want to turn it on or leave it on while
the ground party is parking your aircraft, he still may want to have
kids!
(Our restriction is 15 feet can cause personal damage if left on or in
the TEST mode).
For the big thunder bumpers (the guys in FL can fill in more details).
I start by tilting the radar dish UP.
Typically if it climbs to 45K that's the one you don't want to fly into
or under.
You will see so many targets on the screen that they will only confuse
you until you point it about 15 degrees straight up and then the target
alert is the one that might flatten you.
Be cautious of range settings, sometimes they don't always tell you the
whole truth.
>> Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
>> suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
>> POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
Nice feature!
Typically you don't see this kid of system unless it's on a turbine.
Best to read the OPS manual and read it thoroughly.
Is it Halon or some other kind of fire suppressant?
Be careful with those switches especially if someone is doing maintenance
on the aircraft, you don't want to inadvertently activate it and set it
off.
We had a 2 star general set ours off on the ground by accident. (What a
mess!)
I guess the main point here is know the systems by reading the
appropriate manuals.
Sounds like a very nice airplane Chris, now I'm envious.
The 681 I was looking at didn't pan out. (Engines were too tired)
Send some picture via email I'd like to see it, sounds like a winner!
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
Right on, Barry! We live in a nation where what one says is
assayed & assaulted in its minutia. I firmly believe that, at a time like
this, it is very important that persons be able to state their case on
behalf of their country that is under siege. For a foreigner to basically
say you had it coming should not be beyond a verbal rebuttal.
As America gets older, the true contribution of this great nation
seems to get further and further removed from the present, leaving nothing
but Vietnam & Watergate as its recent history. Add to that eight years of a
lying piece of white trash, one can see why the world might not admire us as
it should for our countless contributions to the stability and health of
this globe. That said, now is not the time to slap us in the face with past
failures and paint us as the Ugly American. We have been attacked we
will respond to any negative attitudes or statements with tenacity in our
collective voice. I feel that Mr Hackett probably knows that I certainly
hope he understands our righteous indignation.
God Bless America, not because she is perfect, but because she
tries to be!
Jim Jorgensen (Seattle)
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Hancock [mailto:bdogltd(at)pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:26 PM
To: Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
In general, Andrew, I agree with you. However, when someone starts making
personal attacks in private emails, AND USES THE LIST FOR ACCESS to his
targets, he should not be tolerated. None of us made any comments that
warrented the angst and bitterness that was rained upon several of us. I
have been vocal and recognize I will take the brunt of people with views
similar to Andrew's.
One more thing, how can you on one hand say you want "freedom of speech" and
in the next breath tell people to "not quote scripture"??? Additionally, I
have not seen a single post containg scripture or anything resembling it.
As you suggest, if you don't like something rise above it....you can't have
it both ways.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
My plea is strongly not to ban anyone from this list, not to quote scripture
and to generally try to avoid extremely emotional topics in email forums
such as this.
Bottom line it is email, if you don't like what you're getting, simply
delete it, don't read it, respond to the sender, or not...
Civil discourse shouldn't be limited, and when things get inflamatory or too
emotional we need to just rise above it.
andrew
Barry Hancock wrote:
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
Elegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady1 (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote. This
bitter man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It is
tradgic that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us
who are already educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach
doom and gloom are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
Neither are they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address
PhilHackett(at)aol.com be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say
"I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow,
especially those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual. I don't
know what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input to
help me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think
from someone who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only
recipient of this useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand the
reality of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on your
home turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the
capabilities of our military and political power based on our past
performance. You may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom
walk around fat, dumb, and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you
*clearly* don't understand is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the
most successful country on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble to face
incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed the
people on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage.
We are doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take
pride in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about
problems on this list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." - Colin
Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem
that must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
Does that mean i have to buy a crop duster now.
Hey anyone got a crop duster for sale?
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 11:56 AM
Subject: CORRECTION
HI KIDS....................
I listened to the FAA recording again this AM. I must have miss
heard it yesterday. Today it says that all VFR part 91 aircraft are grounded
"until further notice." It then goes on to explane that crop dusters are cleared
etc. Sorry for the miss statement of the facts.
jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
My point exactly!!
In some cases it is the black stuff that will get you.(Southern Air DC-9) One
needs to know what "attenuation" is. It can be deadly.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: 680FP
In a message dated 9/19/01 11:22:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
writes:
Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
familiar with it's operation.
HI CHRIS......
Stay away from the dark green stuff. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radar, Fire suppression |
Randy Sharp wrote:
> I guess the main point here is know the systems by reading the
> appropriate manuals.
Thanks to Randy and everyone else who responded.
Those of you who know me fairly well know that I'm one of these
people who has to know EVERYTHING about whatever I'm dealing with.
I tend to read every scrap of documentation and research a subject to
death before I even want to discuss it. Unfortunatly, the items I
had the question on don't seem to have much usefull documentation.
The fire system is a good example (worse because it's an addition).
Most of these older pieces of hardware just don't come with the quality
of literature that, for example, my new Garmin GNS530 has so there
are a lot of things to "figure out".
{
This is one of the things that makes Wing Commander Gordon such an
incredibly
valuable resource to us all. He's "figured out" a LOT of stuff and
has been willing to share, in detail, his knowledge (which has ended
up causing him some substantial past grief BTW).
};
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I shall endevor to find some
training in the neighborhood (hmm, maybe Spartan?) on the radar stuff.
I had neglected my father as a source of info on this topic as well.
He called tonight to remind me that he'd spent a whole career using
some of the wildest gadgets us taxpayers could afford to produce :-)
He did say that I probably wouldn't need to study much detail on
"radar terrain following" though (which makes me QUITE happy!)
(he flew F-111's at insane speeds at tree-top levels at night)
One other side note: that wonderful gentleman - Richard MacCoon - has
offered his assistance with a final "tweaking" of the new engine
installs, plumbing, and familiarization with the aircraft. Now THAT'S
an offer I can not afford to refuse!
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Would one of you explain to Furlong what a joke is!!! Big Al
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
> Is there anyone out there that hasn't paid their AOPA
> membership?? SHAME ON YOU!!!! Please take care of that tonight and
> mail first thing tomorrow!! Thanks!! jb
AMEN JB!!!!
Phil has been busting his tail not only trying to get some sanity going,
but also AOPA has been just about the only source of reliable
information.
I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for the efforts of the AOPA
that we just might not EVER get to fly again.
If things get back to mostly normal, remind me to sit my butt down and
write a heartfelt letter of thanks to the fine folks at AOPA.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Re: ThoughtsYup. Right on!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
In general, Andrew, I agree with you. However, when someone starts making personal
attacks in private emails, AND USES THE LIST FOR ACCESS to his targets,
he should not be tolerated. None of us made any comments that warrented the
angst and bitterness that was rained upon several of us. I have been vocal and
recognize I will take the brunt of people with views similar to Andrew's.
One more thing, how can you on one hand say you want "freedom of speech" and
in the next breath tell people to "not quote scripture"??? Additionally, I have
not seen a single post containg scripture or anything resembling it. As you
suggest, if you don't like something rise above it....you can't have it both
ways.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
My plea is strongly not to ban anyone from this list, not to quote scripture
and to generally try to avoid extremely emotional topics in email forums such
as this.
Bottom line it is email, if you don't like what you're getting, simply delete
it, don't read it, respond to the sender, or not...
Civil discourse shouldn't be limited, and when things get inflamatory or too
emotional we need to just rise above it.
andrew
Barry Hancock wrote:
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
OElegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady1 (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote. This
bitter man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It is tradgic
that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us who are
already educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach doom and
gloom are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution. Neither
are they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address PhilHackett(at)aol.com
be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say "I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow, especially
those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual. I don't
know what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input to
help me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think from
someone who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only recipient
of this useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand the
reality of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on your
home turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the capabilities
of our military and political power based on our past performance.
You may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom walk around fat,
dumb, and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you *clearly* don't understand
is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the most successful country
on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble to face
incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed the
people on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage.
We are doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take pride
in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about problems
on this list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." - Colin
Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem
that must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | WE HAVE VFR BACK (mostly) |
Just posted at http://www.aopa.org
Limited VFR allowed - no traffic watch flights, no training flights,
no class B access...yet...
Go GIT'EM Phill!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | garyloff <n27kb(at)erols.com> |
Re: ThoughtsNico,
I have kept my thoughts to myself and on the 4 confirmed dead friends.
Between you and I (you'll noticed I sent this to you and not the group) I find
your way of thinking and your former regime reprehensible.
If Nelson Mandela was a terrorist he had every right to fight against apartheid.
The fact that you would shout down someone like Phil shows that you don't know
what this country is about. I don't agree with Phil for a moment but I will defend
his right too say what ever he wants in what ever forum. And even though
you and I are diametricly opposed I will defend you rights with equal vigor.
I have proudly worn the uniform of this country and make apologies to know one.
It's 2:30 A.M and the CAPs are blasting off from Andrews( which is strange as Andrews
normally closes at 10 and doesn't reopen until 6)I'd like you to think
about them as they prepare to go into harms way. Their mission to protect us all
regardless of race creed or color and opinions.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Barry Hancock ; Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Yup. Right on!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
In general, Andrew, I agree with you. However, when someone starts making
personal attacks in private emails, AND USES THE LIST FOR ACCESS to his targets,
he should not be tolerated. None of us made any comments that warrented the
angst and bitterness that was rained upon several of us. I have been vocal
and recognize I will take the brunt of people with views similar to Andrew's.
One more thing, how can you on one hand say you want "freedom of speech" and
in the next breath tell people to "not quote scripture"??? Additionally, I
have not seen a single post containg scripture or anything resembling it. As
you suggest, if you don't like something rise above it....you can't have it both
ways.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
My plea is strongly not to ban anyone from this list, not to quote scripture
and to generally try to avoid extremely emotional topics in email forums such
as this.
Bottom line it is email, if you don't like what you're getting, simply delete
it, don't read it, respond to the sender, or not...
Civil discourse shouldn't be limited, and when things get inflamatory or
too emotional we need to just rise above it.
andrew
Barry Hancock wrote:
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
OElegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady1 (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote.
This bitter man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It is
tradgic that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us who
are already educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach doom
and gloom are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution. Neither
are they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address PhilHackett(at)aol.com
be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say "I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow,
especially those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual. I don't
know what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input to
help me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think
from someone who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only recipient
of this useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand the
reality of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on your
home turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the capabilities
of our military and political power based on our past performance.
You may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom walk around fat,
dumb, and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you *clearly* don't
understand is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the most successful country
on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble to
face incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed
the people on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage.
We are doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take
pride in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about problems
on this list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." - Colin
Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem
that must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <thall5(at)kc.rr.com> |
VFR Airspace Opens Through Much Of U.S.
Updated 9/19/01 7:35 p.m. (CDT)
The Federal Aviation Administration announced late today (Sept. 19) that
much of the nations airspace available to pilots flying under Visual Flight
Rules (VFR) has been reopened, with restrictions remaining in major
metropolitan areas and flight training.
Just got this off the EAA newsletter.
Check it out.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back to flying |
In a message dated 09/19/01 18:37:55 Pacific Daylight Time, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
writes:
>
Hold on now. I sat next to Milt and his shirt was dazzling, yes, but it did
not stink by any standard.
Of course, it was the first morning of the first day -- and I left -- so I
can't vouch for how it was at the end of the second day, let alone how it was
by the time they made it home in N414C.
How is it now, Milt? I imagine washing it would dull its brightness,
wouldn't it?
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Re: ThoughtsThank you for the personal letter. I apologize that the response is
a little lengthy, but I thought it appropriate to address some of the issues
you raised.
I am not sure that I understand what you are referring to when you speak about
Mandela and apartheid. You may wish to stay away from subjects you have no knowledge
of, and please don't read condescension in my admonition. I will debate
it with you whenever and however you wish. The short answer is basically that
if you consider Mandela's bombing, burning, raping, and killing of innocent people
of all races, as an act of freedom-fighting, then you cannot condemn the
terrorists on Tuesday either, because those murderers also claim to have a freedom/oppression
motive. In my book there is no difference between what they did
and what Mandela (the ANC) practiced, and still practices. (Perhaps you are
not aware of the fact that the communist regime in South Africa now kills, rapes,
and assaults people indiscriminately to the scale where SA is considered
the most dangerous place outside of a war zone).
You seem to imagine that one act of terrorism is justified because of its motive,
while another is condemnable. If you believe Mandela fought against apartheid,
you display gross ignorance. The battle against the ANC was a battle against
communism. Mandela used, and the world swallowed the lie, apartheid to mask
his real purpose: to install communism in South Africa. And you don't have to
disagree with me, just look at what he accomplished. South Africa today is ruled
by the ANC of which all the members of the ruling elite are card-carrying
members of the South African Communist Party, an organization fundamentally clinging
to Marxist doctrine. The liberal West fell for the trick and today only
Botswana, Swaziland, and Lesotho are non-communist; the latter two are also crumbling.
The clincher is that there is much, much more racism in South Africa
today than there ever has been with the previous regime. Hind-sight clarity that
his objective was never the eradication of racism. But this time, it is practiced
with an iron fist. No tolerance. Proof that his fight wasn't about apartheid
(racism). No, my friend, a terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of the
motive. Period. And you better wise up to that reality.
At the very best, you are inconsistent in your reasoning and grossly misinformed
in your opinion.
If you want to condemn apartheid, that's fine, and, if you are prepared to be educated
about the history of South Africa, not as it has been recorded by those
who purposely distorted the facts, I might join you. For your information, I
did not only emigrate from SA because of the communist regime that Mandela brought
into that region of the world, but also because of what I resented of the
previous government. But, alas, such a debate would be fruitless if you choose
to remain ignorant and just parrot the mantras of the liberal information hackers.
I don't believe that I shouted Phil down. The simple language of his letter was
not that of reason, but rather critique at a time that was not wisely chosen.
Before Sept 11, one could have spoken to any American the way he did, and he
most likely would have had a much different response. Today, however, it is not
wise judgment to tell America what he said in his letter. His own stupidity
brought on him the wrath of most of the group. It had nothing to do with freedom
of speech. And, by the way, you are wrong to say that freedom of speech means
that you can say what you want when and where you want. There are certain
places and times that you cannot say, and shouldn't say, what you want. This is
a private board and he had the freedom to quit, as he did. But we also had the
freedom to chastise him if we feel he stepped outside the boundary of what
this community considers reason. If he refused to quit, the moderator had all
the right to discontinue his membership and terminate his right to free speech
on this forum. So, I disagree with you that we shouted Phil down. He was at best
very foolish to say the things he did, where and when he did. Especially as
an outsider. If you believe that this country is about freedom of speech in
your definition, you really leave me speechless. That statement is such a cliche
and it is used to beat people into submission whoever raises another point
of view. In addition, you don't seem to know yourself what 'this country is about'
because if you did know, you wouldn't have said such a thing. Your own statement
rather convicts you than supports your position.
America is not completely without blame for her problems in general, not because
of what America is, but, among other, because of different administrations every
four or eight years. Every administration applies the constitution as it
sees fit (within reason, of course). So, one administration may screw things up
in one area but do very good work in another, while another administration would
do exactly the opposite. As is the case with what happened as I explain in
the next paragraph.
It completely escapes me why you would find it necessary to tell me that you have
worn the uniform of this country proudly. Isn't it expected of you to do that?
Are you aware that young men and women also died in the Angolan war against
communist Cuba (indirectly against the USSR)? That they too wore their uniforms
with pride and died for a cause that evaporated when the US refused to follow
up on her commitments? (Carter administration.) That was not a war that involved
Mandela, it was the USSR's grasp for precious resources. Today we know
why. It was not because the Soviet Union was greedy, they were dying because of
communism; a policy that failed, as we all in the West knew it would. But what
South Africa prevented in Angola, the West gave the communists on a golden
platter. To have your young men and women shot up and then the cause disappears
because of another country's failure to follow through is not an endearing
thought. But I understood the process of democracy and how that could affect things.
I also understand liberals and the way they think. It doesn't sound as
if you are a liberal, in the political context that I mean, but what you said
sounds as idiotic as what a liberal would typically regurgitate.
You say that you find my thinking reprehensible. What on earth do you know about
me that you could pass off that judgment? In making that statement, after blatantly
displaying gross ignorance of the subject matter, you exposed yourself
as a hypocrite. How can you make that judgment about someone you have never
even spoken to or debated the issues that you raise. You obviously also know nothing
about South Africa to say that you find the previous regime reprehensible.
You come across as a dishonest broker of a bankrupt position.
So, remember, many folks wore their uniforms proudly and gave their lives obeying
their commanders, fighting an evil power, the USSR. I immigrated to this country
against all odds, against popular opinion and against all the false propaganda
about America. I came beforehand to see for myself: I knew what I would
find: An honorable people, of compatible culture and language. I found a beautiful
country. I fell in love with her, with her freedom. The same freedom you
spoke of. It was to be my new home and I embraced her with passion. Not for
a moment will I doubt your patriotism. Don't you dare doubt mine.
For a moment I proudly shared with you the activities on Andrews. But then you
had to go and spoil it by saying that their mission is to protect us all regardless
of race creed or color and opinions. That's fact, I know. And I agree with
you. But it seems as if you are letting me know that you are aware that I could
be racist biased. Shame on you!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: garyloff
To: Nico van Niekerk
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Nico,
I have kept my thoughts to myself and on the 4 confirmed dead friends.
Between you and I (you'll noticed I sent this to you and not the group) I find
your way of thinking and your former regime reprehensible.
If Nelson Mandela was a terrorist he had every right to fight against apartheid.
The fact that you would shout down someone like Phil shows that you don't know
what this country is about. I don't agree with Phil for a moment but I will
defend his right too say what ever he wants in what ever forum. And even though
you and I are diametricly opposed I will defend you rights with equal vigor.
I have proudly worn the uniform of this country and make apologies to know one.
It's 2:30 A.M and the CAPs are blasting off from Andrews( which is strange as
Andrews normally closes at 10 and doesn't reopen until 6)I'd like you to think
about them as they prepare to go into harms way. Their mission to protect us
all regardless of race creed or color and opinions.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Barry Hancock ; Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Yup. Right on!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
In general, Andrew, I agree with you. However, when someone starts making
personal attacks in private emails, AND USES THE LIST FOR ACCESS to his targets,
he should not be tolerated. None of us made any comments that warrented
the angst and bitterness that was rained upon several of us. I have been vocal
and recognize I will take the brunt of people with views similar to Andrew's.
One more thing, how can you on one hand say you want "freedom of speech"
and in the next breath tell people to "not quote scripture"??? Additionally,
I have not seen a single post containg scripture or anything resembling it. As
you suggest, if you don't like something rise above it....you can't have it
both ways.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
My plea is strongly not to ban anyone from this list, not to quote scripture
and to generally try to avoid extremely emotional topics in email forums
such as this.
Bottom line it is email, if you don't like what you're getting, simply
delete it, don't read it, respond to the sender, or not...
Civil discourse shouldn't be limited, and when things get inflamatory or
too emotional we need to just rise above it.
andrew
Barry Hancock wrote:
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
OElegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady1 (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote.
This bitter man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It is
tradgic that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us who
are already educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach doom
and gloom are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution. Neither
are they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address PhilHackett(at)aol.com
be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say "I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow,
especially those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual. I
don't know what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input
to help me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think
from someone who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only recipient
of this useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand
the reality of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on your
home turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the
capabilities of our military and political power based on our past performance.
You may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom walk around fat,
dumb, and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you *clearly* don't
understand is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the most successful
country on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble
to face incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed
the people on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage.
We are doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take
pride in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about problems
on this list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." - Colin
Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem
that must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radar, Fire suppression |
So, when a two-star general does that do you still 'yessir' 'nosir' or do
you get a small window of opportunity immediately after the 'oops' to speak
your mind freely?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Sharp" <sharp.r(at)apple.com>
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Radar, Fire suppression
> Hi Chris,
>
> Chris said:
> >> Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
> >> familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
> >> potential for misinterpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
> >> for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
> >> tips and techniques?
>
> As previously stated best to take a class, read the manual (buy one if
> you don't have one), and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. You don't want to
> be in a position requiring you to figure this thing out when you really
> need it. Best to go out and paint some clouds, rain, and terrain and
> then assimilate what you see on the screen to what you see outside.
>
> We use a Bendix 1400C which has terrain search, radar beacon mode, WX
> radar etc and
> with all of its capabilities sometime it's very useful and sometimes it's
> not and this thing costs the tax payers over $35K each which is not even
> counting the 1553 data bus connections to the INS and GPS Nav systems.
>
> But most importantly you don't want to turn it on or leave it on while
> the ground party is parking your aircraft, he still may want to have
> kids!
> (Our restriction is 15 feet can cause personal damage if left on or in
> the TEST mode).
>
> For the big thunder bumpers (the guys in FL can fill in more details).
> I start by tilting the radar dish UP.
> Typically if it climbs to 45K that's the one you don't want to fly into
> or under.
> You will see so many targets on the screen that they will only confuse
> you until you point it about 15 degrees straight up and then the target
> alert is the one that might flatten you.
> Be cautious of range settings, sometimes they don't always tell you the
> whole truth.
>
> >> Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
> >> suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
> >> POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
> Nice feature!
> Typically you don't see this kid of system unless it's on a turbine.
> Best to read the OPS manual and read it thoroughly.
> Is it Halon or some other kind of fire suppressant?
> Be careful with those switches especially if someone is doing maintenance
> on the aircraft, you don't want to inadvertently activate it and set it
> off.
> We had a 2 star general set ours off on the ground by accident. (What a
> mess!)
>
> I guess the main point here is know the systems by reading the
> appropriate manuals.
> Sounds like a very nice airplane Chris, now I'm envious.
> The 681 I was looking at didn't pan out. (Engines were too tired)
> Send some picture via email I'd like to see it, sounds like a winner!
>
> Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Re: ThoughtsSomeone (maybe 30 or so years ago) once said to me: 'you don't think
you are conceited, you just think you are bloody perfect!'
I said, 'No, to think that you have to be British.'
'Why on earth would you say a thing like that,' he retorted.
'Because,' I said, 'an Englishman is the only person on this planet that could
come to your country and call you a 'bloody foreigner'.'
Nico
Disclaimer: I thought it was hilariously funny. We both laughed, and are still
friends today. - N
----- Original Message -----
From: res00rbl
To: Barry Hancock ; Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: Thoughts
Right on, Barry! We live in a nation where what one says is assayed
& assaulted in its minutia. I firmly believe that, at a time like this, it
is very important that persons be able to state their case on behalf of their
country that is under siege. For a foreigner to basically say "you had it coming"
should not be beyond a verbal rebuttal.
As America gets older, the true contribution of this great nation seems
to get further and further removed from the present, leaving nothing but
Vietnam & Watergate as its recent history. Add to that eight years of a lying
piece of white trash, one can see why the world might not admire us as it should
for our countless contributions to the stability and health of this globe.
That said, now is not the time to slap us in the face with past failures and
paint us as the "Ugly American." We have been attacked - we will respond to
any negative attitudes or statements with tenacity in our collective voice. I
feel that Mr Hackett probably knows that - I certainly hope he understands our
"righteous indignation."
God Bless America, not because she is perfect, but because she tries
to be!
Jim Jorgensen (Seattle)
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Hancock [mailto:bdogltd(at)pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:26 PM
To: Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
In general, Andrew, I agree with you. However, when someone starts making personal
attacks in private emails, AND USES THE LIST FOR ACCESS to his targets,
he should not be tolerated. None of us made any comments that warrented the
angst and bitterness that was rained upon several of us. I have been vocal and
recognize I will take the brunt of people with views similar to Andrew's.
One more thing, how can you on one hand say you want "freedom of speech" and
in the next breath tell people to "not quote scripture"??? Additionally, I have
not seen a single post containg scripture or anything resembling it. As you
suggest, if you don't like something rise above it....you can't have it both
ways.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
My plea is strongly not to ban anyone from this list, not to quote scripture
and to generally try to avoid extremely emotional topics in email forums such
as this.
Bottom line it is email, if you don't like what you're getting, simply delete
it, don't read it, respond to the sender, or not...
Civil discourse shouldn't be limited, and when things get inflamatory or too
emotional we need to just rise above it.
andrew
Barry Hancock wrote:
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
OElegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady1 (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote. This bitter
man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It is tradgic
that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us who are already
educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach doom and gloom
are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution. Neither are
they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address PhilHackett(at)aol.com
be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say "I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow, especially
those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual. I don't know
what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input to help
me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think from someone
who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only recipient of this
useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand the reality
of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on your home
turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the capabilities
of our military and political power based on our past performance. You
may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom walk around fat, dumb,
and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you *clearly* don't understand
is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the most successful country
on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble to face
incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed the people
on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage. We are
doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take pride
in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about problems on this
list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." - Colin Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem that
must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Greetings from Oz! |
>>>>
Gday Nico,
I was interested to see your reference to immediate post-war Mozambique. My
very good friend Mike Martins (these days based in Oz) became one of the few
white (Portugese Mocambiqan) survivors of the 16 year civil war there,
inheriting and holing out on his fathers farm SW of Maputo. His stories
of flying with Matavia Air are fascinating to say the least and he has
futher tales relating to Aero Commanders around this time !
Cheers and beers
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radar, Fire suppression |
Well we are all waiting for the answer to that one.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: Randy Sharp
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: Radar, Fire suppression
> So, when a two-star general does that do you still 'yessir' 'nosir' or do
> you get a small window of opportunity immediately after the 'oops' to
speak
> your mind freely?
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Sharp" <sharp.r(at)apple.com>
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Radar, Fire suppression
>
>
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > Chris said:
> > >> Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
> > >> familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
> > >> potential for misinterpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
> > >> for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
> > >> tips and techniques?
> >
> > As previously stated best to take a class, read the manual (buy one if
> > you don't have one), and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. You don't want
to
> > be in a position requiring you to figure this thing out when you really
> > need it. Best to go out and paint some clouds, rain, and terrain and
> > then assimilate what you see on the screen to what you see outside.
> >
> > We use a Bendix 1400C which has terrain search, radar beacon mode, WX
> > radar etc and
> > with all of its capabilities sometime it's very useful and sometimes
it's
> > not and this thing costs the tax payers over $35K each which is not even
> > counting the 1553 data bus connections to the INS and GPS Nav systems.
> >
> > But most importantly you don't want to turn it on or leave it on while
> > the ground party is parking your aircraft, he still may want to have
> > kids!
> > (Our restriction is 15 feet can cause personal damage if left on or in
> > the TEST mode).
> >
> > For the big thunder bumpers (the guys in FL can fill in more details).
> > I start by tilting the radar dish UP.
> > Typically if it climbs to 45K that's the one you don't want to fly into
> > or under.
> > You will see so many targets on the screen that they will only confuse
> > you until you point it about 15 degrees straight up and then the target
> > alert is the one that might flatten you.
> > Be cautious of range settings, sometimes they don't always tell you the
> > whole truth.
> >
> > >> Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
> > >> suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
> > >> POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
> > Nice feature!
> > Typically you don't see this kid of system unless it's on a turbine.
> > Best to read the OPS manual and read it thoroughly.
> > Is it Halon or some other kind of fire suppressant?
> > Be careful with those switches especially if someone is doing
maintenance
> > on the aircraft, you don't want to inadvertently activate it and set it
> > off.
> > We had a 2 star general set ours off on the ground by accident. (What a
> > mess!)
> >
> > I guess the main point here is know the systems by reading the
> > appropriate manuals.
> > Sounds like a very nice airplane Chris, now I'm envious.
> > The 681 I was looking at didn't pan out. (Engines were too tired)
> > Send some picture via email I'd like to see it, sounds like a winner!
> >
> > Randy
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Loff <n27kb(at)erols.com> |
Re: ThoughtsNico,
First I must tell you that the correspondence was not from me but having said that
I too have been distressed by many of your e-mails.
I personally don't feel terrorism is ever justified. I would like to know if your
positions (races) had been reversed in SA what you would have done.
Your thoughtful letter deserves a more detailed response and I and hopefully my
friend shall do so when time permits.
I wish she would have identified herself to avoid this confusion, but our thinking
is not to dissimilar on most issues.
I will leave you with this one thought for now. It is far to simplistic to blame
everything on the "liberals".
Regards,
Gary Loff
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: garyloff
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Thank you for the personal letter. I apologize that the response is a little
lengthy, but I thought it appropriate to address some of the issues you raised.
I am not sure that I understand what you are referring to when you speak about
Mandela and apartheid. You may wish to stay away from subjects you have no knowledge
of, and please don't read condescension in my admonition. I will debate
it with you whenever and however you wish. The short answer is basically that
if you consider Mandela's bombing, burning, raping, and killing of innocent
people of all races, as an act of freedom-fighting, then you cannot condemn the
terrorists on Tuesday either, because those murderers also claim to have a
freedom/oppression motive. In my book there is no difference between what they
did and what Mandela (the ANC) practiced, and still practices. (Perhaps you are
not aware of the fact that the communist regime in South Africa now kills,
rapes, and assaults people indiscriminately to the scale where SA is considered
the most dangerous place outside of a war zone).
You seem to imagine that one act of terrorism is justified because of its motive,
while another is condemnable. If you believe Mandela fought against apartheid,
you display gross ignorance. The battle against the ANC was a battle against
communism. Mandela used, and the world swallowed the lie, apartheid to mask
his real purpose: to install communism in South Africa. And you don't have
to disagree with me, just look at what he accomplished. South Africa today is
ruled by the ANC of which all the members of the ruling elite are card-carrying
members of the South African Communist Party, an organization fundamentally
clinging to Marxist doctrine. The liberal West fell for the trick and today only
Botswana, Swaziland, and Lesotho are non-communist; the latter two are also
crumbling. The clincher is that there is much, much more racism in South Africa
today than there ever has been with the previous regime. Hind-sight clarity
that his objective was never the eradication of racism. But this time, it is
practiced with an iron fist. No tolerance. Proof that his fight wasn't about apartheid
(racism). No, my friend, a terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of the
motive. Period. And you better wise up to that reality.
At the very best, you are inconsistent in your reasoning and grossly misinformed
in your opinion.
September 12, 2001 - September 20, 2001
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ae