Commander-Archive.digest.vol-af
September 20, 2001 - October 04, 2001
If you want to condemn apartheid, that's fine, and, if you are prepared to be
educated about the history of South Africa, not as it has been recorded by those
who purposely distorted the facts, I might join you. For your information,
I did not only emigrate from SA because of the communist regime that Mandela
brought into that region of the world, but also because of what I resented of
the previous government. But, alas, such a debate would be fruitless if you choose
to remain ignorant and just parrot the mantras of the liberal information
hackers.
I don't believe that I shouted Phil down. The simple language of his letter was
not that of reason, but rather critique at a time that was not wisely chosen.
Before Sept 11, one could have spoken to any American the way he did, and he
most likely would have had a much different response. Today, however, it is
not wise judgment to tell America what he said in his letter. His own stupidity
brought on him the wrath of most of the group. It had nothing to do with freedom
of speech. And, by the way, you are wrong to say that freedom of speech
means that you can say what you want when and where you want. There are certain
places and times that you cannot say, and shouldn't say, what you want. This
is a private board and he had the freedom to quit, as he did. But we also had
the freedom to chastise him if we feel he stepped outside the boundary of what
this community considers reason. If he refused to quit, the moderator had all
the right to discontinue his membership and terminate his right to free speech
on this forum. So, I disagree with you that we shouted Phil down. He was at
best very foolish to say the things he did, where and when he did. Especially
as an outsider. If you believe that this country is about freedom of speech
in your definition, you really leave me speechless. That statement is such a cliche
and it is used to beat people into submission whoever raises another point
of view. In addition, you don't seem to know yourself what 'this country is
about' because if you did know, you wouldn't have said such a thing. Your own
statement rather convicts you than supports your position.
America is not completely without blame for her problems in general, not because
of what America is, but, among other, because of different administrations
every four or eight years. Every administration applies the constitution as it
sees fit (within reason, of course). So, one administration may screw things
up in one area but do very good work in another, while another administration
would do exactly the opposite. As is the case with what happened as I explain
in the next paragraph.
It completely escapes me why you would find it necessary to tell me that you
have worn the uniform of this country proudly. Isn't it expected of you to do
that? Are you aware that young men and women also died in the Angolan war against
communist Cuba (indirectly against the USSR)? That they too wore their uniforms
with pride and died for a cause that evaporated when the US refused to follow
up on her commitments? (Carter administration.) That was not a war that
involved Mandela, it was the USSR's grasp for precious resources. Today we know
why. It was not because the Soviet Union was greedy, they were dying because
of communism; a policy that failed, as we all in the West knew it would. But
what South Africa prevented in Angola, the West gave the communists on a golden
platter. To have your young men and women shot up and then the cause disappears
because of another country's failure to follow through is not an endearing
thought. But I understood the process of democracy and how that could affect
things. I also understand liberals and the way they think. It doesn't sound as
if you are a liberal, in the political context that I mean, but what you said
sounds as idiotic as what a liberal would typically regurgitate.
You say that you find my thinking reprehensible. What on earth do you know about
me that you could pass off that judgment? In making that statement, after
blatantly displaying gross ignorance of the subject matter, you exposed yourself
as a hypocrite. How can you make that judgment about someone you have never
even spoken to or debated the issues that you raise. You obviously also know
nothing about South Africa to say that you find the previous regime reprehensible.
You come across as a dishonest broker of a bankrupt position.
So, remember, many folks wore their uniforms proudly and gave their lives obeying
their commanders, fighting an evil power, the USSR. I immigrated to this
country against all odds, against popular opinion and against all the false propaganda
about America. I came beforehand to see for myself: I knew what I would
find: An honorable people, of compatible culture and language. I found a beautiful
country. I fell in love with her, with her freedom. The same freedom you
spoke of. It was to be my new home and I embraced her with passion. Not for
a moment will I doubt your patriotism. Don't you dare doubt mine.
For a moment I proudly shared with you the activities on Andrews. But then you
had to go and spoil it by saying that their mission is to protect us all regardless
of race creed or color and opinions. That's fact, I know. And I agree
with you. But it seems as if you are letting me know that you are aware that I
could be racist biased. Shame on you!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: garyloff
To: Nico van Niekerk
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Nico,
I have kept my thoughts to myself and on the 4 confirmed dead friends.
Between you and I (you'll noticed I sent this to you and not the group) I
find your way of thinking and your former regime reprehensible.
If Nelson Mandela was a terrorist he had every right to fight against apartheid.
The fact that you would shout down someone like Phil shows that you don't know
what this country is about. I don't agree with Phil for a moment but I will
defend his right too say what ever he wants in what ever forum. And even though
you and I are diametricly opposed I will defend you rights with equal vigor.
I have proudly worn the uniform of this country and make apologies to know
one.
It's 2:30 A.M and the CAPs are blasting off from Andrews( which is strange
as Andrews normally closes at 10 and doesn't reopen until 6)I'd like you to think
about them as they prepare to go into harms way. Their mission to protect
us all regardless of race creed or color and opinions.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Barry Hancock ; Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Yup. Right on!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Andrew Foss
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts
In general, Andrew, I agree with you. However, when someone starts making
personal attacks in private emails, AND USES THE LIST FOR ACCESS to his targets,
he should not be tolerated. None of us made any comments that warrented
the angst and bitterness that was rained upon several of us. I have been vocal
and recognize I will take the brunt of people with views similar to Andrew's.
One more thing, how can you on one hand say you want "freedom of speech"
and in the next breath tell people to "not quote scripture"??? Additionally,
I have not seen a single post containg scripture or anything resembling it.
As you suggest, if you don't like something rise above it....you can't have it
both ways.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
My plea is strongly not to ban anyone from this list, not to quote scripture
and to generally try to avoid extremely emotional topics in email forums
such as this.
Bottom line it is email, if you don't like what you're getting, simply
delete it, don't read it, respond to the sender, or not...
Civil discourse shouldn't be limited, and when things get inflamatory
or too emotional we need to just rise above it.
andrew
Barry Hancock wrote:
From: PhilHackett(at)aol.com
On all the line a sudden vengeance waits,
And frequent hearses shall besiege your gates.
OElegy to the Memory of an Unfortunate Lady1 (1717) l. 37
That's it. In sticking with Democratic traditions, I propose a vote.
This bitter man has warn out his welcome here as far as I'm concerned. It
is tradgic that he has nothing better to do than try to "educate" those of us
who are already educated. People that have nothing better to do than preach
doom and gloom are clearly part of the problem, not a part of the solution. Neither
are they beneficial to productive discussion.
THEREFORE, I move that the person using the email address PhilHackett(at)aol.com
be BANNED from this list. All those in favor say "I".....
Chris, it is my hope that you will follow "the will of the people."
May the lord have mercy on the souls filled with bitterness and sorrow,
especially those that camoflague it under the guise of "reason."
God bless America.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
PS I have received numerous personal emails from this individual.
I don't know what mission he thinks he's on, but I don't need nor want his input
to help me better understand the situation or learn about what MY people think
from someone who does not even live here. I'm sure I am not the only recipient
of this useless inflammatory spam.
Remember we all have the ability to block emails from unwanted parties....
Finally, one last comment to Phil. You may think that you understand
the reality of this situation better than us because you have "lived it" on
your home turf and now we are "getting ours." You may think you understand the
capabilities of our military and political power based on our past performance.
You may think that you understand Americans, i.e. those whom walk around
fat, dumb, and happy - oblivious to the outside world. What you *clearly* don't
understand is the resolve, ingenuity, will, and pride of the most successful
country on the face of this planet in centuries.
It is easy to talk about what may happen. It is difficult and noble
to face incredible challenges with dignity and honor. This country, and indeed
the people on this list, are about people commited to protecting our heritage.
We are doers, not naysayers, as evidenced by the fact we work hard and take
pride in keeping our beautiful old birds flying. We don't spout about problems
on this list, we support each other and deal with solutions.
"There is no intent here, you are either for us, or against us." -
Colin Powell
In other words, you are either part of the solution, or part of the
problem that must be eliminated.
It is clear, Phil, which side you are on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
Chris,
You need to find one of Archie Trammell's books on radar. He is the one that used
to do the seminars and the book that goes with it is very good. It goes into
quite a bit of detail but stays just within the attention span and technical
level of us simple pilots. After you read it you will understand all the shortcomings
of radar, how to interpret the display and how to set it up and use
it for some pretty specific stuff.
I think he used to advertise in the back of Business and Commercial Aviation or
Pro Pilot. I'll dig through my archives because I think I might have an extra
copy. Don't get your hopes up, but if I find one I can copy it for you.
Regards,
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radar, Fire suppression |
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com said:
>So, when a two-star general does that do you still 'yessir' 'nosir' or do
>you get a small window of opportunity immediately after the 'oops' to speak
>your mind freely?
>Nico
As per military protocol, it's the pilots fault for not briefing him on
which switches are
not to be touched (Yellow hashed marks), of course this is done in a
polite political way.
Fortunately it was the group commander who was flying him that day
instead of me.
Randy
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Randy Sharp" <sharp.r(at)apple.com>
>Cc:
>Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Radar, Fire suppression
>
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> Chris said:
>> >> Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
>> >> familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
>> >> potential for misinterpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
>> >> for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
>> >> tips and techniques?
>>
>> As previously stated best to take a class, read the manual (buy one if
>> you don't have one), and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. You don't want to
>> be in a position requiring you to figure this thing out when you really
>> need it. Best to go out and paint some clouds, rain, and terrain and
>> then assimilate what you see on the screen to what you see outside.
>>
>> We use a Bendix 1400C which has terrain search, radar beacon mode, WX
>> radar etc and
>> with all of its capabilities sometime it's very useful and sometimes it's
>> not and this thing costs the tax payers over $35K each which is not even
>> counting the 1553 data bus connections to the INS and GPS Nav systems.
>>
>> But most importantly you don't want to turn it on or leave it on while
>> the ground party is parking your aircraft, he still may want to have
>> kids!
>> (Our restriction is 15 feet can cause personal damage if left on or in
>> the TEST mode).
>>
>> For the big thunder bumpers (the guys in FL can fill in more details).
>> I start by tilting the radar dish UP.
>> Typically if it climbs to 45K that's the one you don't want to fly into
>> or under.
>> You will see so many targets on the screen that they will only confuse
>> you until you point it about 15 degrees straight up and then the target
>> alert is the one that might flatten you.
>> Be cautious of range settings, sometimes they don't always tell you the
>> whole truth.
>>
>> >> Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
>> >> suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
>> >> POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
>> Nice feature!
>> Typically you don't see this kid of system unless it's on a turbine.
>> Best to read the OPS manual and read it thoroughly.
>> Is it Halon or some other kind of fire suppressant?
>> Be careful with those switches especially if someone is doing maintenance
>> on the aircraft, you don't want to inadvertently activate it and set it
>> off.
>> We had a 2 star general set ours off on the ground by accident. (What a
>> mess!)
>>
>> I guess the main point here is know the systems by reading the
>> appropriate manuals.
>> Sounds like a very nice airplane Chris, now I'm envious.
>> The 681 I was looking at didn't pan out. (Engines were too tired)
>> Send some picture via email I'd like to see it, sounds like a winner!
>>
>> Randy
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radar, Fire suppression |
As per military protocol, it's the pilots fault for not briefing him on
which switches are
not to be touched (yellow hashed marks), of course this is done in a
polite political way.
Fortunately it was the group commander who was flying him that day
instead of me.
Randy
mdcmd@ms-online.com said:
>Well we are all waiting for the answer to that one.
>Milt
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
>To: Randy Sharp
>Cc:
>Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 12:43 AM
>Subject: Re: Radar, Fire suppression
>
>
>> So, when a two-star general does that do you still 'yessir' 'nosir' or do
>> you get a small window of opportunity immediately after the 'oops' to
>speak
>> your mind freely?
>> Nico
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Randy Sharp" <sharp.r(at)apple.com>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: Radar, Fire suppression
>>
>>
>> > Hi Chris,
>> >
>> > Chris said:
>> > >> Having never owned an aircraft with radar before, I'm not terribly
>> > >> familiar with it's operation. I've read several articles about the
>> > >> potential for misinterpretation, but does anyone have a suggestion
>> > >> for a detailed and solid document which could provide me some good
>> > >> tips and techniques?
>> >
>> > As previously stated best to take a class, read the manual (buy one if
>> > you don't have one), and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. You don't want
>to
>> > be in a position requiring you to figure this thing out when you really
>> > need it. Best to go out and paint some clouds, rain, and terrain and
>> > then assimilate what you see on the screen to what you see outside.
>> >
>> > We use a Bendix 1400C which has terrain search, radar beacon mode, WX
>> > radar etc and
>> > with all of its capabilities sometime it's very useful and sometimes
>it's
>> > not and this thing costs the tax payers over $35K each which is not even
>> > counting the 1553 data bus connections to the INS and GPS Nav systems.
>> >
>> > But most importantly you don't want to turn it on or leave it on while
>> > the ground party is parking your aircraft, he still may want to have
>> > kids!
>> > (Our restriction is 15 feet can cause personal damage if left on or in
>> > the TEST mode).
>> >
>> > For the big thunder bumpers (the guys in FL can fill in more details).
>> > I start by tilting the radar dish UP.
>> > Typically if it climbs to 45K that's the one you don't want to fly into
>> > or under.
>> > You will see so many targets on the screen that they will only confuse
>> > you until you point it about 15 degrees straight up and then the target
>> > alert is the one that might flatten you.
>> > Be cautious of range settings, sometimes they don't always tell you the
>> > whole truth.
>> >
>> > >> Last question for the moment: this airplane is equiped with a fire
>> > >> suppression system. Anyone have any details about it's use? The
>> > >> POH(sic) gives little info about when to "punch the button".
>> > Nice feature!
>> > Typically you don't see this kid of system unless it's on a turbine.
>> > Best to read the OPS manual and read it thoroughly.
>> > Is it Halon or some other kind of fire suppressant?
>> > Be careful with those switches especially if someone is doing
>maintenance
>> > on the aircraft, you don't want to inadvertently activate it and set it
>> > off.
>> > We had a 2 star general set ours off on the ground by accident. (What a
>> > mess!)
>> >
>> > I guess the main point here is know the systems by reading the
>> > appropriate manuals.
>> > Sounds like a very nice airplane Chris, now I'm envious.
>> > The 681 I was looking at didn't pan out. (Engines were too tired)
>> > Send some picture via email I'd like to see it, sounds like a winner!
>> >
>> > Randy
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Max Schuermann <max(at)greencis.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Reducing the Public's Fear of a GA Threat |
Here's the airplane Chris and I like to play with on pretty Sunday
afternoons. Does get a lot of comments.
Max Schuermann
Jim Martyn wrote:
> Here's my idea for reducing the non-flying public's irrational fear of
> GA: Every one paint big Stars and Bars on your aircraft. That way,
> every time one of you lucky IFR pretty-boys goes flying, the fearful
> public will see a sign of your patriotism instead of a liability
> overhead.
________________________________________________________________________________
Al
I think his response was also a joke. You would have to meet him to
understand his rather sharp wit and dry sense of humor. He is an ex jarhead
and would have made a good redneck if only hed been born in the right place.
When we goin to get Lucille.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: RNCP
> Would one of you explain to Furlong what a joke is!!! Big Al
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back to flying |
> Milt Concannon wrote:
> My plan is to fly (yes) in my commander) to England to visit Barry,
> then to Ireland to search for ancestors( Dont tell Barry Im Irish),
> then to Scotland then home.
>
> Obviously Ive never done this before so I thought since you guys aint
> flyin you could help with advice
Dunno if you've read Keith Gordons story about his ferry flights
to Pago Pago, but it might give you some ideas. Its on the web
site in the "Stories" section is is great reading!
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Weather Forecast |
>From: Ricky Brown <rbrown@franklin-gov.com>
>To: "Craig Moates (E-mail)" , "Alan Reed
>(E-mail)" , "Ron Coleman (E-mail)"
>
>Subject: FW: Weather Forecast
>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:49:10 -0500
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Al Segal
>Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:49 AM
>To: Angie Hardemon; Arlena Clausi; Becky Johnson; Bruce Bateman; Charles
>Fitzgerald; Chris Gentry; Don Zelaya; Irene Holley; Jack Scully; Jim
>Gibson;
>Joann Willhite; kevin Teague; Mike Jordan; Ricky Brown; Sissy Taylor;
>Sherry
>Lovett; Tommy Heithcock
>Subject: FW: Weather Forecast
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Captain H. Fremd [mailto:fremdh(at)ci.portsmouth.va.us]
>Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:04 AM
>To: Sterling, Steve(Work); Segal, Al (Work); Michalski, Dave (Work);
>Jackson, Steve(Work); Fremd, Shirley(Work); DBCFremd(at)aol.com; Barnes,
>Susan(Work)
>Subject: FW: Weather Forecast
>
>Weather Forecast:
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Big Al
You can come to my aid anytime now while these west coast Granola bars are beating
up on me for my shirt.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radar, Fire suppression |
Hey Chris the Guru of Radar is Archie Trammwell.
He has about a 6 hour Radar operation tape that is really good if you can
stay awake during his dialogue.
He can tell you, based on the diameter of your dish, how to measure the true
angle of your zero tilt, use the tilt to estimate cloud tops and bases, set
up the TAT (Target Acquisition Tilt), understand "clutter", Attenuation, and
other things.
REMEMBER THIS: IF YOU CAN'T PAINT THE GROUND BEHIND A CELL IT WILL KILL
YOU!!!!!!
OTHERWISE KNOWN AS A RADAR "SHADOW" (THE BLACK, OR ABSENCE OF A RETURN,
BEHIND A GREEN OR RED CELL THAT LOOKS HARMLESS IS ACTUALLY THE INDICATION
THAT NO BEAM PARTICLES PENETRATED THE CELL BECAUSE IT IS SO SEVERE.
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Sending Milt to Europe |
In a message dated 09/20/01 12:12:55 Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
> Dunno if you've read Keith Gordons story about his ferry flights
> to Pago Pago, but it might give you some ideas.
Thanks for the spotlight, Chris, but flying to Europe is quite a bit easier,
far less exotic and a damn lot colder.
First place I want you to look is this link:
Worldwide Airport Path Finder
Fool around with this flight planner and set the performance up for your
AC-685. Remember to cut your range by a bunch to give you adequate
reserves. Like ... cut your total endurance by two hours, at the bare
minimum.
An AC-685 is a good airplane for this route -- de-iced, long range. The
flight planner I point out above will plot your route and put in your fuel
stops according to what your range is. (based on TAS and endurance)
I will dig up some resources on the web that will help you learn the E.U.
requirements as well as North Atlantic requirements. The Canadians, who
clear you across (and where you'll make a necessary fuel stop) won't let you
go without proper navigation and survial equipment. Those requirements are
coming, also, as soon as I can dig them up.
ICAO Annex 2 is a bunch of aviation regulations and procedures you'll get to
learn, as well. Most of it aimed at high altitude, turbine operators, but
lots of basics for everyone.
For this I want some Cadburry chocolate smuggled back. Has to be dark
chocolate with toasted almonds. I'm not cheap, after all.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
If you have the nerve to wear a special shirt to a Fly-in ,That proves you
need a shopping cart to hold to hold them there testicles your totin,you
might be a RED-NECKED COMMANDER PILOT,or MILT C. AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Flying (the magazine) |
Page 46 of latest edition addresses weather in the cockpit.
Item 1 is bendix king they say you can update with a 5 minute delay at a cost of
$50-$100/month estimated in the future. More likely will be a lot more.
Item 2 is Big Als anywhere map that uses a sat phone for $35/month and $1.49 a
minute usage.
Still sounds like a stormscope and radar are more cost effective.
Page 75 is aerial view of Oshkosh clearly showing an aerocommander just below fat
albert. The question is who's
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | North Atlantic info |
Dr. Milt and everyone contemplating flying the North Atlantic in their
Commander:
Here is an important website to surf. Tons of info and tons of important
links. Spend the time to check them out.
North Atlantic Procedures 2
Oh -- Milt -- ya'll gonna have to wear shoes when ya'll visit the Queen.
Wing Commander Gordon
P.S. Have you tried mung bean sprouts with your grits?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sending Milt to Europe |
In a message dated 09/20/01 17:34:46 Pacific Daylight Time,
mdcmd@ms-online.com writes:
>
I don't know what I don't know. That's just for starters and it scares me.
Next thing I don't know is why women can't walk past a shoe store without
stopping.
It geometrically progresses from there.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
If your wife(Californian) cooks for you the first time,and you bite into a
green-bean and it crunches,you politely tell her -Dear the beans are'nt done
and she says Oh! there aldente,and you politely tell her to aldente yours
back into the damn pot till the're done, you might be a RED-NECKED COMMANDER
PILOT. BIG AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Back in the air... |
Just returned from my first flight since the events of last week...sure felt
good. IFR flight from San Luis Obispo, CA (SBP) to Chico, CA (CIC) and
back. The system worked efficiently with no delays, no security problems at
either airport, and the Commander flew great...as usual. (Pain in the ass
to monitor 121.5 while changing freqs back and forth tho...)
Good flying all...
RD
680F/N6253X
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sending Milt to Europe |
Thanks Keith,
Ive actually read the PAGO PAGO bit several times. Dont think Im up to that but
I think I can pull the Europe thing off.
Is there anything you dont know?
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 2:49 PM
Subject: Sending Milt to Europe
In a message dated 09/20/01 12:12:55 Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
writes:
Dunno if you've read Keith Gordons story about his ferry flights
to Pago Pago, but it might give you some ideas.
Thanks for the spotlight, Chris, but flying to Europe is quite a bit easier,
far less exotic and a damn lot colder.
First place I want you to look is this link:
Worldwide Airport Path Finder
Fool around with this flight planner and set the performance up for your AC-685.
Remember to cut your range by a bunch to give you adequate reserves. Like
... cut your total endurance by two hours, at the bare minimum.
An AC-685 is a good airplane for this route -- de-iced, long range. The flight
planner I point out above will plot your route and put in your fuel stops according
to what your range is. (based on TAS and endurance)
I will dig up some resources on the web that will help you learn the E.U. requirements
as well as North Atlantic requirements. The Canadians, who clear you
across (and where you'll make a necessary fuel stop) won't let you go without
proper navigation and survial equipment. Those requirements are coming, also,
as soon as I can dig them up.
ICAO Annex 2 is a bunch of aviation regulations and procedures you'll get to
learn, as well. Most of it aimed at high altitude, turbine operators, but lots
of basics for everyone.
For this I want some Cadburry chocolate smuggled back. Has to be dark chocolate
with toasted almonds. I'm not cheap, after all.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flying (the magazine) |
> Milt wrote:
> Still sounds like a stormscope and radar are more cost effective.
That's the conclusion I've arrived at also Milt. I'm sure that we're
going to get some "uplinked" stuff in the future that is vastly more
attractive than what's available today, but I'm not willing to bet a
bunch of money on a speculative technology purchase quite yet.
The LEOS (low earth orbital sat) is the only good method at the moment,
but the bandwidth is severely limited and the cost is high. I'm
betting on a dedicated terrestial network...
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sending Milt to Europe |
What I don't know, is why would they have one bra but a pair of panties.
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: mdcmd@ms-online.com
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Sending Milt to Europe
In a message dated 09/20/01 17:34:46 Pacific Daylight Time, mdcmd@ms-online.com
writes:
Is there anything you dont know?
I don't know what I don't know. That's just for starters and it scares me.
Next thing I don't know is why women can't walk past a shoe store without stopping.
It geometrically progresses from there.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | important admin message |
Milt wrote:
>Thanks Keith,
>Is there anything you dont know?
Fear not fellow Commander nuts, I've locked down Keiths entry in the
Commanderchat list. He will NEVER be able to unsubscribe from the list.
I've assigned spies to tail him in case he tries to relocate or change
email addresses. Should he attempt to flee, I will be immediatly
notified and will update his entry in the database. Plans for the
near future include implanting a homing device into his brain while
he's asleep for added safety. Should Keith suffer an unfortunate
demise,
his brain will retrieved by my spies. Dr Milt will be assisting with
the preservation of the brain which will be kept alive in a bottle
of some unknown liquid that Crunk has offered to provide. (he claims
that it helps out the healthy brain cells by eliminating the weak ones)
The brain will be directly connected to a 100baseT port on my server
network and assigned it's own IP address and internet domain.
(Cortex.Keiths_Brain.net). I've made arrangements to maintain the
brain until such time as there are no more Commanders flying. A
brain trust has been set up to facilitate the financial needs of
future generations of "brain administrators". Donations can be sent
directly to me.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ski the Trees <vinophile(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back in the air... |
...CIC... My home town. I miss Chico. Got my ticket
in OVE, just 20 MN from there.
dave
Long time lurker and hopefully soon to be commander
lackey.
--- Randy Dettmer wrote:
> Just returned from my first flight since the events
> of last week...sure felt
> good. IFR flight from San Luis Obispo, CA (SBP) to
> Chico, CA (CIC) and
> back. The system worked efficiently with no delays,
> no security problems at
> either airport, and the Commander flew great...as
> usual. (Pain in the ass
> to monitor 121.5 while changing freqs back and forth
> tho...)
>
> Good flying all...
>
> RD
> 680F/N6253X
>
__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Man has often thought about things with no basis,like,what is love, or
what is life. I have been stumped on a question for years,how does a blind
person know when they're through wiping! Now I ask you,How. Big Al
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Important admin message |
Chris,
"I've assigned spies to tail him in case he tries to relocate or change
email addresses"
This is not necessary, and will thus allow retention some of the funds, as
I had already arranged for an implant some years ago, whereby Keith's
movements are tracked by satellite. He has tried to escape before,
re-locating from California to Ohio, then a year or so later, to Nevada.
His headphones have also been doctored, and relay a constant subconscious
message, that Commanders will always come first in his life.
However, one disturbing aspect of his brain will have to be eliminated, if
data integrity is to be assured. When I heard that he was operating out of
McCarran, I asked him to get some pictures of Area51 during climb-out. He
told me he couldn't ........as he was too busy looking out for Howard
Hughes and Elvis. This could be interpreted as him having a sense of
humour, but do not be taken in by that suggestion.
Perhaps give the brain a quick flush-through before preservation, with some
of Big Al's no-name?
Crunk's unknown liquid is proven to be good stuff. It haas heelped imensly
wif my speeling, four instants, when I furst started tayking it 150 yeres
ago.
"The brain will be directly connected to a 100baseT port on my server
network and assigned it's own IP address and internet domain."
Again, I can help by donating a battery back-up system (i.e. there's no
charge).
Well done Chris!
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
Chris Schuermann
cc:
Sent by: Subject: important admin message
chris(at)skymaster.c2-
tech.com
21/09/2001 03:57
Milt wrote:
>Thanks Keith,
>Is there anything you dont know?
Fear not fellow Commander nuts, I've locked down Keiths entry in the
Commanderchat list. He will NEVER be able to unsubscribe from the list.
I've assigned spies to tail him in case he tries to relocate or change
email addresses. Should he attempt to flee, I will be immediatly
notified and will update his entry in the database. Plans for the
near future include implanting a homing device into his brain while
he's asleep for added safety. Should Keith suffer an unfortunate
demise, his brain will retrieved by my spies. Dr Milt will be assisting
with the preservation of the brain which will be kept alive in a bottle
of some unknown liquid that Crunk has offered to provide. (he claims
that it helps out the healthy brain cells by eliminating the weak ones)
The brain will be directly connected to a 100baseT port on my server
network and assigned it's own IP address and internet domain.
(Cortex.Keiths_Brain.net). I've made arrangements to maintain the
brain until such time as there are no more Commanders flying. A
brain trust has been set up to facilitate the financial needs of
future generations of "brain administrators". Donations can be sent
directly to me.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
Yea! Chris, He's the guy I was thinking of.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: David Maytag
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: Radar
Chris,
You need to find one of Archie Trammell's books on radar. He is the one that
used to do the seminars and the book that goes with it is very good. It goes
into quite a bit of detail but stays just within the attention span and technical
level of us simple pilots. After you read it you will understand all the
shortcomings of radar, how to interpret the display and how to set it up and
use it for some pretty specific stuff.
I think he used to advertise in the back of Business and Commercial Aviation
or Pro Pilot. I'll dig through my archives because I think I might have an extra
copy. Don't get your hopes up, but if I find one I can copy it for you.
Regards,
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radar, Fire suppression |
That's the Southern DC-9 story I refereed to.
bilbo
>
> REMEMBER THIS: IF YOU CAN'T PAINT THE GROUND BEHIND A CELL IT WILL KILL
> YOU!!!!!!
>
> OTHERWISE KNOWN AS A RADAR "SHADOW" (THE BLACK, OR ABSENCE OF A RETURN,
> BEHIND A GREEN OR RED CELL THAT LOOKS HARMLESS IS ACTUALLY THE INDICATION
> THAT NO BEAM PARTICLES PENETRATED THE CELL BECAUSE IT IS SO SEVERE.
>
>
> Paul Reason
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sending Milt to Europe |
In a message dated 09/20/01 19:43:36 Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
>
Because the bras are so damn hard to unhook and get off. Takes two panties
to equal the hassle of one bra.
KsG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sending Milt to Europe |
In a message dated 09/20/01 18:14:43 Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> You probably will never know how valuable that link to the Worldwide Airport
>
See? There's another thing I don't know. The list is endless ...
Glad to be of service.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: important admin message |
In a message dated 09/20/01 20:00:35 Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
> Plans for the
> near future include implanting a homing device into his brain while
> he's asleep for added safety. Should Keith suffer an unfortunate
> demise,
> his brain will retrieved by my spies.
Wait! You've got the wrong man!
I swear it! I lost my mind long long ago. The one you're attempting to
track is not mine.
Besides, Morris Kernick's brain is the one you should be archiving. That man
has a 24x CD ROM for a brain, at the very minimum.
There would be no Me if it weren't for Morris Kernick.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | One of the first commerical flights to IAD |
CommanderLand
Don't want to get back into last week conversations, but thought you might
enjoy one airline Captain's announcement on his first flight back. His "self-defense"
methods sounded OK to me.
Don
This is from a friend of a friend:
The following is from a letter by a professional friend and her return flight to
D.C. this week.
"I just wanted to drop you all a note and let you know that I arrived safe and
sound into Dulles Airport tonight [9/15] at about 6:00. It was an interesting
flight.
The airport in Denver was almost spooky, it was so empty and quiet. No one was
in line for the security check point when I got there so that went fairly quickly,
just x-ray of my bags and then a chemical test to be sure nothing explosive
was on them.
Then I waited 2 1/2 hours to board the plane. What happened after we boarded was
interesting and thought I would share it with you.
The pilot/captain came on the loudspeaker after the doors were closed. His speech
went like this:
First I wan! t to thank you for being brave enough to fly today. The doors are
now closed and we have no help from the outside for any problems that might occur
inside this plane. As you could tell when you checked in, the government
has made some changes to increase security in the airports.
They have not, however, made any rules about what happens after those doors close.
Until they do that, we have made our own rules and I want to share them with
you. Once those doors close, we only have each other.
The security has taken care of a threat like guns with all of the increased scanning,
etc. Then we have the supposed bomb. If you have a bomb, there is no
need to tell me about it, or anyone else on this plane; you are already in control.
So, for this flight, there are no bombs that exist on this plane.
Now, the threats that are left are things like plastics, wood, knives, and other
weapons that can be made or things like th! at which can be used as weapons.
Here is our plan and our rules. If someone or several people stand up and say
they are hijacking this plane, I want you all to stand up together. Then take
whatever you have available to you and throw it at them. Throw it at their faces
and heads so they will have to raise their hands to protect themselves.
The very best protection you have against knives are the pillows and blankets.
Whoever is close to these people should then try to get a blanket over their
head--then they won't be able to see. Once that is done, get them down and keep
them there. Do not let them up. I will then land the plane at the closest
place and we WILL take care of them.
After all, there are usually only a few of them and we are 200+ strong! We will
not allow them to take over this plane.
I find it interesting that the US Constitution begins with the words "We, the people"--that's
who we are, ! THE people and we will not be defeated.
With that, the passengers on the plane all began to applaud, people had tears in
their eyes, and we began the trip toward the runway.
The flight attendant then began the safety speech. One of the things she said
is that we are all so busy and live our lives at such a fast pace. She asked
that everyone turn to their neighbors on either side and introduce themselves,
tell each other something about your families and children, show pictures, whatever.
She said "for today, we consider you family. We will treat you as such
and ask that you do the same with us."
Throughout the flight we learned that for the crew, this was their first flight
since Tuesday's tragedies. It was a day that everyone leaned on each other and
together everyone was stronger than any one person alone. It was quite an
experience.
You can imagine the feeling when that plane touched down at Dulles and we! heard
"welcome to Washington Dulles Airport, where the local time is 5:40".
Again, the cabin was filled with applause.Thought you would like to read this.
Makes one proud to be an American.
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One of the first commerical flights to IAD |
I find it interesting. Remember that in the past, there have been 2 types of hijackings.
1) the type where 99% - 100% of the passengers really are safe, and the plane
mearly took them on a long terrifying trip.
2) The flights like Stockholm where the plane just blew up.
People had no real reason to resist the hijackers. Quess what. Now they do.
Terrorists have demonstrated that not only are they crazy but they are stupid.
They have eliminated a form of terror for themselves, and angered an entire
world against them.
If terrorists think they will have passive passengers and crew, they will not.
They will not likely be able to hijack a plane again. I, as a frequent flyer,
just remembered how much it hurt when my laptop fell out of the overhead bin
and hit my foot, I limped for days.
Imagine my 4 lb laptop, in a Targus bag, with 250 CD's ancillary devices, which
weighs in at a hefty 25lbs, comes sailing for a terrorists head. OUCH. Imagine
soda cans being flung at them. Imagine me, a 320' person who use to be a bouncer,
and is willing to literally rip the arms out of their sockets as I lunge
at them.
I swear if someone ever tries to hijack a plane I am on, I will either end up dead,
or they will end up crippled for life. I know how, as do many, to bust elbows,
and break knee caps in small confined spaces, and I will feel no remorse
for them as I physically and permanantly mame or kill these sub-human scum bags
with my bare hands, providing the 200 or so people on the plane don;t beat
me to it.
No more will people stand passively by and obey their commands and demands.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Lowell Girod
To: TCFG
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 5:36 PM
Subject: One of the first commerical flights to IAD
CommanderLand
Don't want to get back into last week conversations, but thought you might
enjoy one airline Captain's announcement on his first flight back. His "self-defense"
methods sounded OK to me.
Don
This is from a friend of a friend:
The following is from a letter by a professional friend and her return flight
to D.C. this week.
"I just wanted to drop you all a note and let you know that I arrived safe and
sound into Dulles Airport tonight [9/15] at about 6:00. It was an interesting
flight.
The airport in Denver was almost spooky, it was so empty and quiet. No one was
in line for the security check point when I got there so that went fairly quickly,
just x-ray of my bags and then a chemical test to be sure nothing explosive
was on them.
Then I waited 2 1/2 hours to board the plane. What happened after we boarded
was interesting and thought I would share it with you.
The pilot/captain came on the loudspeaker after the doors were closed. His speech
went like this:
First I wan! t to thank you for being brave enough to fly today. The doors are
now closed and we have no help from the outside for any problems that might
occur inside this plane. As you could tell when you checked in, the government
has made some changes to increase security in the airports.
They have not, however, made any rules about what happens after those doors close.
Until they do that, we have made our own rules and I want to share them
with you. Once those doors close, we only have each other.
The security has taken care of a threat like guns with all of the increased scanning,
etc. Then we have the supposed bomb. If you have a bomb, there is no
need to tell me about it, or anyone else on this plane; you are already in control.
So, for this flight, there are no bombs that exist on this plane.
Now, the threats that are left are things like plastics, wood, knives, and other
weapons that can be made or things like th! at which can be used as weapons.
Here is our plan and our rules. If someone or several people stand up and say
they are hijacking this plane, I want you all to stand up together. Then take
whatever you have available to you and throw it at them. Throw it at their
faces and heads so they will have to raise their hands to protect themselves.
The very best protection you have against knives are the pillows and blankets.
Whoever is close to these people should then try to get a blanket over their
head--then they won't be able to see. Once that is done, get them down and
keep them there. Do not let them up. I will then land the plane at the closest
place and we WILL take care of them.
After all, there are usually only a few of them and we are 200+ strong! We will
not allow them to take over this plane.
I find it interesting that the US Constitution begins with the words "We, the
people"--that's who we are, ! THE people and we will not be defeated.
With that, the passengers on the plane all began to applaud, people had tears
in their eyes, and we began the trip toward the runway.
The flight attendant then began the safety speech. One of the things she said
is that we are all so busy and live our lives at such a fast pace. She asked
that everyone turn to their neighbors on either side and introduce themselves,
tell each other something about your families and children, show pictures,
whatever. She said "for today, we consider you family. We will treat you as
such and ask that you do the same with us."
Throughout the flight we learned that for the crew, this was their first flight
since Tuesday's tragedies. It was a day that everyone leaned on each other
and together everyone was stronger than any one person alone. It was quite an
experience.
You can imagine the feeling when that plane touched down at Dulles and we! heard
"welcome to Washington Dulles Airport, where the local time is 5:40".
Again, the cabin was filled with applause.Thought you would like to read this.
Makes one proud to be an American.
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <thall5(at)kc.rr.com> |
Commanderland,
Just in from ANN and AOPA.
FAA approves resumption of most flight training activities
9/21/2001 7:00:23 PM The FAA has just released a notam
<http://38.200.9.137/010915tfr.html#345> permitting the resumption of most
flight training activities. The notam, which is effective at 0000Z (8 p.m.
ET) tonight, allows VFR flight training in non-turbojet aircraft and gliders
(weighing less than 12,500 pounds) outside of enhanced Class B airspace.
Lets go flying.
Tylor Hall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | garyloff <n27kb(at)erols.com> |
I have adhesive vinyl American flags approx 12x16 suitable for the tail. Both sides
will face the proper disection on the tail. If anyone is interested they
are $18/$36 a set. (my cost)
The supplier needs a minimum order of 25 sets to make them up let me know if anyone
is interested.
Leave for Albuquerque tomorrow. We are flying commercial as our airpooort is within
25 miles of the Capitol and is still closed with a small exception. It's
starting to get rediculous.
We are open for 135 so a person of evil intent could come and charter an airplane
but the several flag officers that have their airplanes here cannot even reposition
them
We have talked to some guys who at the higher levels of govt and the military.
A couple of these guys have regular contact with GW. They tell us the airspace
will be pretty much back to normal next week. Stay tuned.
You'll enjoy this one. The reason IFR flight "controlled" was opened before the
"uncontrolled" segments was the people on the National Security Council, not
to be confused with National Security Agency( as the former are political appointees
and the latter professionals of the highest order )anyway the reason was
the NSA thought that controlled flight meant exactly that the FAA had some
kind of direct physical control over the aircraft and could dictate where they
fly.
Let me know about the flags.
gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of the first commerical flights to IAD |
Damn right, Mark. They have forever shut that door also. Bomb or no bomb, the outcome
will be the same if the pax don't do something. So, from now on, do something.
Even if they would allow me to sing to them. That'll take care of the
problem!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Intrex
To: TCFG
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: One of the first commerical flights to IAD
I find it interesting. Remember that in the past, there have been 2 types of
hijackings.
1) the type where 99% - 100% of the passengers really are safe, and the plane
mearly took them on a long terrifying trip.
2) The flights like Stockholm where the plane just blew up.
People had no real reason to resist the hijackers. Quess what. Now they do.
Terrorists have demonstrated that not only are they crazy but they are stupid.
They have eliminated a form of terror for themselves, and angered an entire
world against them.
If terrorists think they will have passive passengers and crew, they will not.
They will not likely be able to hijack a plane again. I, as a frequent flyer,
just remembered how much it hurt when my laptop fell out of the overhead bin
and hit my foot, I limped for days.
Imagine my 4 lb laptop, in a Targus bag, with 250 CD's ancillary devices, which
weighs in at a hefty 25lbs, comes sailing for a terrorists head. OUCH. Imagine
soda cans being flung at them. Imagine me, a 320' person who use to be a
bouncer, and is willing to literally rip the arms out of their sockets as I lunge
at them.
I swear if someone ever tries to hijack a plane I am on, I will either end up
dead, or they will end up crippled for life. I know how, as do many, to bust
elbows, and break knee caps in small confined spaces, and I will feel no remorse
for them as I physically and permanantly mame or kill these sub-human scum
bags with my bare hands, providing the 200 or so people on the plane don;t beat
me to it.
No more will people stand passively by and obey their commands and demands.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Lowell Girod
To: TCFG
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 5:36 PM
Subject: One of the first commerical flights to IAD
CommanderLand
Don't want to get back into last week conversations, but thought you might
enjoy one airline Captain's announcement on his first flight back. His "self-defense"
methods sounded OK to me.
Don
This is from a friend of a friend:
The following is from a letter by a professional friend and her return flight
to D.C. this week.
"I just wanted to drop you all a note and let you know that I arrived safe
and sound into Dulles Airport tonight [9/15] at about 6:00. It was an interesting
flight.
The airport in Denver was almost spooky, it was so empty and quiet. No one
was in line for the security check point when I got there so that went fairly
quickly, just x-ray of my bags and then a chemical test to be sure nothing explosive
was on them.
Then I waited 2 1/2 hours to board the plane. What happened after we boarded
was interesting and thought I would share it with you.
The pilot/captain came on the loudspeaker after the doors were closed. His
speech went like this:
First I wan! t to thank you for being brave enough to fly today. The doors
are now closed and we have no help from the outside for any problems that might
occur inside this plane. As you could tell when you checked in, the government
has made some changes to increase security in the airports.
They have not, however, made any rules about what happens after those doors
close. Until they do that, we have made our own rules and I want to share them
with you. Once those doors close, we only have each other.
The security has taken care of a threat like guns with all of the increased
scanning, etc. Then we have the supposed bomb. If you have a bomb, there is
no need to tell me about it, or anyone else on this plane; you are already in
control. So, for this flight, there are no bombs that exist on this plane.
Now, the threats that are left are things like plastics, wood, knives, and
other weapons that can be made or things like th! at which can be used as weapons.
Here is our plan and our rules. If someone or several people stand up and
say they are hijacking this plane, I want you all to stand up together. Then
take whatever you have available to you and throw it at them. Throw it at their
faces and heads so they will have to raise their hands to protect themselves.
The very best protection you have against knives are the pillows and blankets.
Whoever is close to these people should then try to get a blanket over their
head--then they won't be able to see. Once that is done, get them down and
keep them there. Do not let them up. I will then land the plane at the closest
place and we WILL take care of them.
After all, there are usually only a few of them and we are 200+ strong! We
will not allow them to take over this plane.
I find it interesting that the US Constitution begins with the words "We, the
people"--that's who we are, ! THE people and we will not be defeated.
With that, the passengers on the plane all began to applaud, people had tears
in their eyes, and we began the trip toward the runway.
The flight attendant then began the safety speech. One of the things she said
is that we are all so busy and live our lives at such a fast pace. She asked
that everyone turn to their neighbors on either side and introduce themselves,
tell each other something about your families and children, show pictures,
whatever. She said "for today, we consider you family. We will treat you as
such and ask that you do the same with us."
Throughout the flight we learned that for the crew, this was their first flight
since Tuesday's tragedies. It was a day that everyone leaned on each other
and together everyone was stronger than any one person alone. It was quite
an experience.
You can imagine the feeling when that plane touched down at Dulles and we!
heard "welcome to Washington Dulles Airport, where the local time is 5:40".
Again, the cabin was filled with applause.Thought you would like to read this.
Makes one proud to be an American.
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of the first commerical flights to IAD |
In a message dated 09/21/01 16:37:35 Pacific Daylight Time,
woodlema(at)intrex.net writes:
> Imagine my 4 lb laptop, in a Targus bag, with 250 CD's ancillary devices,
> which weighs in at a hefty 25lbs, comes sailing for a terrorists head.
> OUCH.
And my favorite, the fire extinguisher. First discharged into the eyes, then
whacked over the skull.
Just one request, Mark. Leave them alive for interrogation -- and ask to be
part of the interrogation team, if you can.
OK, back to my granola bar.
Wing Commander Gordon.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Hey Doc.!!!!
I have not even seen a picture of "THE" shirt. does anyone have one from the
flyin??
But in the Southern Tradition of coming to the aid of my kin.......here I
go!!!
Those guys who put Lemons and such in their beer also think that California
is as good as any island oasis......Therefore they have never taken the time
to go to one.....Therefore they dont appreciate your shirt!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of the first commerical flights to IAD |
Heaven forbid that any of us ever have to be in the position to do this
but......
Think about this these 2 things. They are your most powerfull friends in the
event of a highjicking.........
VIOLENT foreward on the yoke, followed by a 2 1/2 G pull positive, Followed
by VIOLENT foreward on the yoke, followed by a 2 1/2 G pull positive,
ETC>>>ETC>>>
ALSO: If you are pressurized, and you have time..... YOU can make sure you
are the only one awake by dumping the cabin pressure after you and the F/O
put your O2 masks on.
I have been flying since the 14th with the Cockpit Jumpseat deployed, and the
Crash Axe on top of my flight bag.
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
JETPAUL(at)aol.com wrote:
> I have not even seen a picture of "THE" shirt. does anyone have one from the
> flyin??
Paul,
Read the trip report on the web site. One of the last pictures
shows "the" shirt...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
Is this on the lines of
"How do the tornadoes know where the trailer parks are?"
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 12:46 AM
Subject: thought
> Man has often thought about things with no basis,like,what is love, or
> what is life. I have been stumped on a question for years,how does a blind
> person know when they're through wiping! Now I ask you,How. Big Al
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/22/2001 4:51:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
>
WHEN I FIRST SAW "THE SHIRT" I JUST FIGURED THE GUY WEARING IT LOOKED AT THE
HILLSBORO IDENTIFIER AND SAW "HIO" AND HE THOUGHT IT HAD SOMETING TO DO WITH
HAWAII ERGO "THE SHIRT"
WHEN I LATER FOUND OUT THAT MIILT WAS A MARINE ALSO, IT ALL CAME TOGETHER FOR
ME -- HAWAII - AND LIKE A GOOD MARINE HE WANTED TO BLEND IN WITH THE POPULACE.
THE OTHER THOUGHT I HAD WAS THAT HE WAS PROBABLY FROM HOLLYWOOD.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One of the first commerical flights to IAD |
It may be a while, But I have been known to completely "PLUG" the entryway
when sitting in the jumpseat of the DC-9 or 737.
I'm still eating.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: One of the first commerical flights to IAD
> Heaven forbid that any of us ever have to be in the position to do this
> but......
>
>
> Think about this these 2 things. They are your most powerfull friends in
the
> event of a highjicking.........
>
> VIOLENT foreward on the yoke, followed by a 2 1/2 G pull positive,
Followed
> by VIOLENT foreward on the yoke, followed by a 2 1/2 G pull positive,
> ETC>>>ETC>>>
>
> ALSO: If you are pressurized, and you have time..... YOU can make sure
you
> are the only one awake by dumping the cabin pressure after you and the F/O
> put your O2 masks on.
>
> I have been flying since the 14th with the Cockpit Jumpseat deployed, and
the
> Crash Axe on top of my flight bag.
>
> Paul Reason
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
Is it the yellow and red one? What's on it.
I think I may have the pants that match.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: shirt
> JETPAUL(at)aol.com wrote:
> > I have not even seen a picture of "THE" shirt. does anyone have one
from the
> > flyin??
>
> Paul,
> Read the trip report on the web site. One of the last pictures
> shows "the" shirt...
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pax 02 masks |
Sorry if this post hits twice.
YES!!! we can turn the pax O2 bottle off in flight. It's right behind the
F/O on the bulkhead wall. Just like shutting off a water hose!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | One of the first commerical flights to IAD |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aero Commander Owners Internet Registry |
George,
I've added you to the chatlist and am cc'ing your email there as an
introduction to the folks here.
At this time, I have no method to seperate out the traffic into topics.
As you can well imagine, we've had a lot of off-topic traffic on the
list since the 11th, but I'm hoping that things have settled down a bit
and the discussions will return to Commanders before we run off too many
fine folks!
The online registry is open to anyone whether they're a Commander owner,
TCFG member, or not. I completely agree with you about the value of
being able to track down a friendly face when you're away from home.
I've
met up with fellow enthusiasts several time from their listings.
(HINT to everyone: sign up for the registry!)
Should you find the list contents to be overwhelming, sorry...you can
NEVER unsubscribe..... ;-)
Just send me a note and I'll remove you anytime you want.
Sincerely,
Chris Schuermann
"George J. Yundt III" wrote:
>
> Chris:
>
> I AM ALREADY A TCFG MEMBER, have been sisnce July. By the way, I would
> think that an on-line directory of ALL the TCFG membership list would be a
> VERY handy thing to have on the website. Of course, allow anyone that
> wishes to remain completely anonymous, or not list address or phone info to
> do so. This would be a great help for the members traveling cross-country,
> especially if you have an unanticipated mechanical problem. A good referral
> to a Commander- savvy mechanic, as well as a little morale support would be
> appreciated by almost any owner / pilot in distress. I am certain the
> majority of the Commander owners would be willing to help another owner out
> in a bind.
>
> As far as the chatlist, is there any way to just join in the 680, F, L, P
> and 685 traffic? I am a member of a BMW Motorcycle Owner's Group that
> allows you to opt for either everything, or select chat traffic by specific
> model. This greatly custs down on the amount of non-applicable mail and
> reading. If you can't do this, I would still like to try it out. If the
> mail gets too cumbersome, I presume I could un-subscribe?
>
> Yes, I read about your trip out in the 685 on the website. My 685 has two
> fresh engines & props, new avionics (much lighter thant the old stuff
> removed) and a new interior. As a result, the BOW is a bit lighter than
> most. I operate out of a 3,000 strip (KJOT), and while I would like a
> longer runway, the performance is OK for up to a 1,000 mi mission. What
> would you expect from a 9,000 lb piston engine aircraft with a 46 ft. wing?
> Additionally, the 210kts TAS @ 65% @ FL210 isn't too bad, either. The room,
> comfort, quiet cabin, rough-air handling, baggage compartment capacity makes
> me, my family and my guests pretty happy to be aboard. If you contrast the
> 685 against the competition (Cessna 421, P-Navajo or a Duke), the 685 beats
> them all in so many on the important catagories...not the least of which is
> structural integrity and acquisition cost! The only thing I don't like is
> the operating cost...but I knew all these facts when I purchased it in June,
> so I really can't complain.
>
> When you plan your trip through Chicago, I hope you will let me know a
> little in advance. Would love to provide a bit of midwest hospitality. As
> I am an aircraft salesman for Dassault Falcon Jet (see www.falconjet.com if
> you want to see the aircraft I sell), I get to travel a good bit. However,
> I usually know my schedule pretty well one week in advance.
>
> Cheers!
>
> George Yundt
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
If your interior upgrade includes a trip to the hardware store for some
colored duct tape, you might be a RED NECKED COMMANDER PILOT! BIG AL
________________________________________________________________________________
How do they work?
What do they cost?
What is the benefit?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercoolers |
> Milt wrote:
>
> How do they work?
> What do they cost?
> What is the benefit?
Turbochargers compress the air which causes heating. The higher you
fly, the greater the differential across the turbo is, which, in turn
causes more heat. At 25000 feet, a turbo system which provides 30" MAP
is heating the air several hundred degrees!
As we know, hot air is less dense.
By routing this hot, compressed air through an intercooler (which
is basicly a radiator - air to air), the temperature can be brought
back down and the air density increased. This restores considerable
power. According to Dick MacCoon, you loose almost 100hp due to
heating on the turbocharged 400hp installations at 25000 ft.
Generally, intercoolers cost several thousand dollars each and vary
widely depending on the aircraft and installation complexity.
The intercooler setup for a 500 series Commander with Rayjay blowers
is about $4500/pair.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercoolers |
Chris already explained the pressure benefit, Milt. The higher temperature of the
air being pumped into the engine also requires more cooling and hence more
fuel, or a lower MAP. Hence, cowl flaps, more drag, and so on. Intercoolers cools
the air which allows for a higher MAP for the same temperature.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Milt
To: Commander Chat
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 4:35 AM
Subject: Intercoolers
How do they work?
What do they cost?
What is the benefit?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ricardo A. Otaola <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve> |
Hi Guys:
I found an abandoned 680, which can be bought or may be even taken away. It
needs engines, as the ones it has do not seem good. One prop, and an extensive
work. Very much like triple 2, probably. Here is the info for Sir Barry:
680-495-165
Prod Cert. 203
GSO-480-A1A-6
YV-1428-P (Callsign)
Anyone interested, I will do more searching to find the owner.
Ricardo A. Otaola
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Please read immediately |
----- Original Message -----
From: Silo, Steven M <Steven.Silo(at)MW.Boeing.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 10:46 AM
Subject: FW: Please read immediately
>
> > Importance: High
> >
> >
> > fyi...
> >
> > Someone is sending out a very cute screensaver of the Budweiser Frogs.
If
> > you download it, you will lose everything!!!!! Your hard drive will
crash
> > and someone from the Internet will get your screen name and password!!!!
> > DO
> > NOT DOWNLOAD IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!! It just went into
> > circulation
> > yesterday. Please distribute this message. This is a new, very
malicious
> > virus and not many people know about it. This information was announced
> > yesterday morning from Microsoft. Please share it with everyone that
> > might
> > access the Internet. Once again, Pass this ALONG TO EVERYONE in your
> > address book so that this may be stopped. AOL has said that this is a
> > very
> > dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Ricardo!
Thanks! YV-1428P is serial 680-495-165, and the latest owner I have was as at October
1987, when it was Donald E Speaker, of Cuidad Bolivar.
It was originally sold new in Mexico in March 1957, as XB-YUJ, before becoming
N5564V in October 1960. Was sold in Venezuela approximately February 1978, being
originally with Donald Speaker in Maracaibo, Zulia.
Ricardo, if you get the chance to inspect the serial number plate again, could
you make a note of the 6-digit number at the very bottom? That's the Manufacturer's
Aircraft Association Plate Number.
Thanks!
Very Best Regards,
Barry Collman
----- Original Message -----
From: Ricardo A. Otaola
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 3:59 PM
Subject: Found One
Hi Guys:
I found an abandoned 680, which can be bought or may be even taken away. It needs
engines, as the ones it has do not seem good. One prop, and an extensive
work. Very much like triple 2, probably. Here is the info for Sir Barry:
680-495-165
Prod Cert. 203
GSO-480-A1A-6
YV-1428-P (Callsign)
Anyone interested, I will do more searching to find the owner.
Ricardo A. Otaola
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Commanderchat status and news |
Barry Collman wrote:
> Would it be feasible to have two chatlists, one for 'serious' Commander topics,
> and the other one more for 'fun' and off-topic matters (jokes etc.)?
Barry,
I've been trying to avoid that, but I think it's time to go ahead
and create a second group. We've lost a fair number of subscribers
over the last six months. Most were probably "lurkers" just trying
to learn more about Aero Commanders, but we've also lost a few owners
who simply couldn't spare the time to wade through the emails each
day. When one realizes that for every posting that is made to the
list that my server sends out over 100 emails, the numbers become
rather staggering. Last month alone, skymaster.c2-tech.com forwarded
over 125,000 commanderchat emails!!!! :-)
In the very near future I will set up another mail list which can
be used for general discussion, jokes, fun stuff, and socializing.
This will allow those who only seek technical information to have a
"clean" list and for everyone else not to loose the interaction thats
been built upon here.
Until I get the new list online, please try to keep THIS list as
on-topic as possible. I don't want to bring discussions to a halt,
but just use good judgment when posting.
cheereeO
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Burson <info(at)reaganfoundation.org> |
| Subject: | Sep. 11 Attack on America |
Dear Friends,
Our nation has suffered a nearly incalculable loss.
Without warning, and in a manner previously unimagined, two
of the most recognizable symbols of our country were damaged
or destroyed, and thousands of our fellow Americans have
lost their lives.
Our way of life may never again be the same. We grieve for
all that has been lost. We remember in sorrow. Though a
great curtain of sadness has descended upon our country, the
resilience of the American spirit has once again
demonstrated its ability to soar from the depths of despair
to new peaks of national unity and resolve as we go forward.
In grand gestures and small acts, we are seeing the very
best of our nation and its people.
September 11, 2001 will not prove to be our darkest day.
Instead, I am convinced, that it can lead to our finest
hour.
We must go forward. For those of us who make the Ronald
Reagan Presidential Library and Foundation our life's work,
we are literally rededicating ourselves to our mission, our
purpose and our country. Over and above our professional
lives, we, like many others, are resolving to be better
neighbors, more reliable friends and more devoted family
members.
We are fond of saying that what we do here everyday is "the
unfinished work of Ronald Reagan." And that will never
change. In doing so, however, we recognize not only the
enduring legacy of the 40th President, but we honor the
office of the American Presidency as well. In the days
and months ahead, our work will take on a new purpose
with a highly-focused meaning.
Please know that the intent of this correspondence is only
to relate in the aftermath of this great tragedy some of the
thoughts and emotions that we are feeling. In this time of
national mourning, we reach out to those who know us best,
and perhaps through this simple gesture, we seek some refuge
too, from the horror that has engulfed us all. Your loyal
and faithful support, so much appreciated in the past - now
more then ever--will steel our resolve for the arduous
times ahead.
In 1986, following the tragic disaster of the Space Shuttle
Challenger, Ronald Reagan told the nation, "Nothing ends
here." In these simple words, we drew great strength, and,
today, we must again. For America and Americans, nothing
ends here. By taking pride in who we are and facing the
future courageously, we will prove ourselves to be worthy
inheritors of that grand tradition of freedom established by
our Founding Fathers over 225 years ago.
On behalf of all of us, we extend our deepest thanks and
appreciation to all of you. We ask you to join us in
imploring the Almighty to soothe the pain of those who have
lost so much and to fuel our strength and faith in this
nation, at this hour of great and lasting need.
God Bless America.
Sincerely,
Mark Burson
http://www.reaganfoundation.org/
| Date: | Sep 24, 2001 |
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Commanderchat status and news |
Good idea, Chris! Jim Jorgensen
-----Original Message-----
From:
Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent:
Monday, September 24, 2001 1:09 PM
To:
Barry Collman; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject:
Commanderchat status and news
Barry Collman wrote:
> Would it be feasible to have two chatlists, one for 'serious' Commander
topics,
> and the other one more for 'fun' and off-topic matters (jokes etc.)?
Barry,
I've been trying to avoid that, but I think it's time to go ahead
and create a second group. We've lost a fair number of subscribers
over the last six months. Most were probably "lurkers" just trying
to learn more about Aero Commanders, but we've also lost a few owners
who simply couldn't spare the time to wade through the emails each
day. When one realizes that for every posting that is made to the
list that my server sends out over 100 emails, the numbers become
rather staggering. Last month alone, skymaster.c2-tech.com forwarded
over 125,000 commanderchat emails!!!! :-)
In the very near future I will set up another mail list which can
be used for general discussion, jokes, fun stuff, and socializing.
This will allow those who only seek technical information to have a
"clean" list and for everyone else not to loose the interaction thats
been built upon here.
Until I get the new list online, please try to keep THIS list as
on-topic as possible. I don't want to bring discussions to a halt,
but just use good judgment when posting.
cheereeO
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercoolers |
Milt,
Did Chris answer your question?
According to my information, your 685 has intercoolers.
Dick MacCoon has provided some details like on how to calculate the horse
power loss at 1% of HP per 10 degrees over standard conditions (59F).
But do you really want to know?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Milt [mailto:mdcmd@ms-online.com]
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 6:36 AM
To: Commander Chat
Subject: Intercoolers
How do they work?
What do they cost?
What is the benefit?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Insurance considerations after WTC attack |
In celebration of the Commander email net getting back to business, I bring
you some rotten info.
"War Risk coverage is not just for international ops now! The aviation
underwriting community is now aware that the likelihood of war-like acts
committed domestically has become a reality."
I know many of you self insure and some of you carry only liability. A few
others have their aircraft financed and may be required to carry War Risk
coverage.
The word out in corporate flight department circles is that the insurance
underwriters are canceling War Risk coverage October 01, to be reissued at a
much higher price.
Also, basic aircraft insurance is about to take a major leap upward.
Would our resident insurance broker have any info to add?
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail) |
Check this out guys!!
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: Hon. Eugene Atkin
To: William R.(Rodd) Browne ; Tom Stone ; Thomas Nolan ; Terry Ogle ; Susanna Chyu,
Md ; Steve VanBuren ; Steve McDonald ; Steve Goldberg ; slittle(at)pcconnection.com
; Santiago CWTel ; Sanford Irving Atkin ; ROSALEE ROBINSON ; Ron Stone
; Ron Huiatt ; Robert & Carrol Causey ; Rita Russakoff ; Richard Ward ; Richard
Moore ; Richard DeVeto ; Richard Bilsky ; Randall Green ; Raleigh & Jean Morrow
; Philip Weisbroad ; Pablo Castro ; Mr. Mosher ` ; Milo Pickney ; Mickey
Green ; Micheal Atkin ; Matt Armstrong ; Martin Jacobs ; Lyris List Manager ;
Loyd Lightfoot-aero ; Larry Owens ; Larry Joel Firsten ; Ken Brown ; Kally Atkin
; Joyce Dobson ; Joe Larson ; Joanna Giglia ; Jim Ester ; Jerry Tech-CMS ;
Jeral Birdwell ; Jeff Atkin ; James Alessandro ; James Alessandro ; Irv Weisbroad
; Howard Silverman ; hamlet ; Gwen R. Garner ; Greg Arikian ; Grant Gardner
; Geo Keifer ; Frank Orta ; Faith Garcia ; Eduardo Smith ; Doug Barreneau ;
Donald Scales MD. ; Denise Turner ; David Tibidow ; David Robins ; David Carranza
; Dan Carr ; Cables ToGo ; Bubba1085(at)aol.com ; Bo Lasker ; Bill McCracken
; Bill Dee ; Beth Atkin ; Barbra Stacy ; Barbra Port ; Barbra Port ; Aso Airplanes-4-sale
; Arleen ; Allan Jets ; Alex Griffin
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 9:30 PM
Subject: Fw: Fw: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail)
----- Original Message -----
From: mooreltc(at)bellsouth.net
To: Polley ; kenneth pin ; Eugene ; DMI332H(at)aol.com ; DavOrkin(at)aol.com ; Corso
; Carey Marquis ; budebuoy(at)lycos.com ; BobJob ; Alan K.
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:11 AM
Subject: Fw: Fw: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail)
----- Original Message -----
From: kathryn simon
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 11:56 AM
Subject: Fwd: Fw: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail)
>
>Subject: Federal Bill 602P
>Guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill 602P 5-cents per E-mail sent.
>It
>figures! No more free E-mail! We knew this was coming!! Bill 602P will
>permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge on every delivered
>E-mail. Please read the following
>carefully if you intend to stay online and continue using E-mail. The last
>few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of the United
>States attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect our
>use of the Internet.
>
>Under proposed legislation, the US Postal Service will be attempting to bill
>E-mail users out of "alternative postage fees".
>
>Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge on
>every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The
>consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP.
>
>Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this
>legislation from becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming lost
>revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly $230,000,000
>in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign: "There is
>nothing like a letter."
>
>Since the average person received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 1998,
>the cost of the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a day - or
>over $180 per year - above and beyond their regular Internet costs.
>
>Note that this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a
>service they do not even provide.
>
>The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are
>already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic
>inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered
>from coast to coast. If the US Postal Service is
>allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in
>the United States.
>
>Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a "$20-$40
>per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the governments
>proposed E-mail charges. Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored
>the story the only exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of
>E-mail surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999
>Editorial). Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away!
>
>Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends and
>relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" to Bill
>602P.
>
>It will only take a few moments of your time and could very well be
>instrumental in killing a bill we do not want.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail) |
>Subject: Federal Bill 602P
>Guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill 602P 5-cents per E-mail sent.
Guys....
This is another silly panic scam that's been floating around the
internet
for ever.
I know that when someone sends you something like this or a virus
threat
or whatever, that you think everyone should know. Your heart is in the
right place, but you've been suckered.
Please take a moment to verify any "real important" info before hitting
the
send button.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Insurance considerations after WTC attack-please foward |
In a message dated 09/25/01 07:04:40 Pacific Daylight Time, TILLMAN333 writes:
> Remember, the Insurance Industry estimates over $40 BILLION in losses from
> the 9-11-01 events.
>
Gary, Sir,
Thank you for the info.
I think this is going to affect the corporate and commercial operators (yes
... we Pretty Boys) more than the aircraft owners who fly because they
actually love to fly.
I put this info out to our group because I believe a few of the members
finance their aircraft and regularly fly outside of U.S. airspace where war
risk coverage is often required in the language of the purchase/lease
contract.
You are right -- the insurance industry is taking a huge hit right now. $40
billion sounds a little low to me, actually.
Again, thanks for being there for us with the info.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail) |
Rodd this story has been floating around for two years! E-mail
your Congressman and you will find out that there is no such number Bill,
let alone with this content.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodd Browne [mailto:dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 4:52 AM
To: TCFG
Subject: Fw: Fw: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail)
Check this out guys!!
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: Hon. Eugene Atkin <mailto:gallahad(at)cwtel.com>
To: William R.(Rodd) Browne ; Tom Stone
; Thomas Nolan
; Terry Ogle
; Susanna Chyu, Md ; Steve VanBuren
; Steve McDonald ;
Steve Goldberg ; slittle(at)pcconnection.com
; Santiago CWTel
; Sanford Irving Atkin
; ROSALEE ROBINSON ; Ron Stone
; Ron Huiatt ; Robert &
Carrol Causey ; Rita Russakoff
; Richard Ward
; Richard Moore ; Richard DeVeto
; Richard Bilsky
; Randall Green ;
Raleigh & Jean Morrow ; Philip Weisbroad
; Pablo Castro ; Mr.
Mosher ` ; Milo Pickney
; Mickey Green
; Micheal Atkin ; Matt
Armstrong ; Martin Jacobs
; Lyris List Manager
; Loyd Lightfoot-aero
; Larry Owens
; Larry Joel Firsten
; Ken Brown ; Kally
Atkin ; Joyce Dobson ;
Joe Larson ; Joanna Giglia
; Jim Ester ; Jerry
Tech-CMS ; Jeral Birdwell
; Jeff Atkin ; James
Alessandro ; James Alessandro
; Irv Weisbroad ;
Howard Silverman ; hamlet
; Gwen R. Garner ;
Greg Arikian ; Grant Gardner
; Geo Keifer ;
Frank Orta ; Faith Garcia
; Eduardo Smith
; Doug Barreneau
; Donald Scales MD. ;
Denise Turner ; David Tibidow
; David Robins ;
David Carranza ; Dan Carr
; Cables ToGo ;
Bubba1085(at)aol.com ; Bo Lasker
; Bill McCracken
; Bill Dee ; Beth
Atkin ; Barbra Stacy
; Barbra Port ; Barbra Port
; Aso Airplanes-4-sale
; Arleen ; Allan Jets
; Alex Griffin
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 9:30 PM
Subject: Fw: Fw: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail)
----- Original Message -----
From: mooreltc(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:mooreltc(at)bellsouth.net>
To: Polley ; kenneth pin
; Eugene ;
DMI332H(at)aol.com ; DavOrkin(at)aol.com
; Corso ; Carey
Marquis ; budebuoy(at)lycos.com
; BobJob ; Alan K.
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:11 AM
Subject: Fw: Fw: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail)
----- Original Message -----
From: kathryn simon <mailto:katsoul85(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 11:56 AM
Subject: Fwd: Fw: Federal Bill 602B (Tax on e-mail)
>
>Subject: Federal Bill 602P
>Guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill 602P 5-cents per E-mail sent.
>It
>figures! No more free E-mail! We knew this was coming!! Bill 602P will
>permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge on every delivered
>E-mail. Please read the following
>carefully if you intend to stay online and continue using E-mail. The last
>few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of the United
>States attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect our
>use of the Internet.
>
>Under proposed legislation, the US Postal Service will be attempting to
bill
>E-mail users out of "alternative postage fees".
>
>Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge
on
>every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source.
The
>consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP.
>
>Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this
>legislation from becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming lost
>revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly $230,000,000
>in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign: "There
is
>nothing like a letter."
>
>Since the average person received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in
1998,
>the cost of the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a day -
or
>over $180 per year - above and beyond their regular Internet costs.
>
>Note that this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a
>service they do not even provide.
>
>The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are
>already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic
>inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered
>from coast to coast. If the US Postal Service is
>allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet
in
>the United States.
>
>Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a
"$20-$40
>per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the
governments
>proposed E-mail charges. Note that most of the major newspapers have
ignored
>the story the only exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea
of
>E-mail surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999
>Editorial). Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away!
>
>Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends and
>relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" to Bill
>602P.
>
>It will only take a few moments of your time and could very well be
>instrumental in killing a bill we do not want.
>
>
_____
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Gravel <svg2(at)caribsurf.com> |
| Subject: | Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
>
> >
> ><< The following is a forwarded message about hijackings:
> >
> >
> > Fraternal Brothers and Sisters, My name is John
> >Burnett. I am a DC-10 Captain for FedEx. I am also a
> >Police Officer for the Memphis Police Department.
> >
> > My purpose in writing this is to share some of
> >my thoughts regarding actions a pilot might consider
> >when faced with a modern-day hijacker. These thoughts
> >are outside-the-box when it comes to the way we've all
> >been trained. Neither the FAA or our companies will
> >suggest any of these techniques or implement them as a
> >part of our normal training cycles. They couldn't for
> >fear of lawsuits. I am distributing this via e-mail to
> >buddies I've flown with. I'm asking them to send it to
> >their circle of friends within the industry, and for you
> >to send it to yours. I know most of us have e-mail, and
> >I hope this reaches the next to face the horror of some
> >religious fanatic onboard.
> >
> > We have all had training in what to do in case
> >of a hijacking; try to keep the hijacker calm, make him
> >think you're doing what he wants, take him where ever he
> >wants to go, etc., etc., etc. Save your passengers, your
> >crew, and your aircraft. In an emergency, you will
> >revert to that training. When our unfortunate peers were
> >faced with the screams of the Flight Attendants and
> >hijacker's demands to open the cockpit door, their
> >training probably made them open the door. When the
> >fanatics made demands, their training told them to
> >comply as best they could. I can only wonder what their
> >thoughts were as they left the cockpit and were tied up
> >in the back of the plane; what they thought as they
> >descended over New York. I hope the fanatics had to kill
> >them in their seats and drag their dead bodies out of
> >the cockpit. But, I bet they did as they were trained to
> >do.
> >
> > As you look back over recent hijackings, FedEx,
> >Egypt Air, and now the September 11th hijackings, you
> >see a perpetrator who, for one reason or another wants
> >to take over the airplane and kill himself. Each of
> >these hijackers, except for the FedEx incident, were
> >successful. They took over the airplane and killed
> >everyone onboard. If you're following the news programs
> >today, you hear a lot about how we could let these
> >hijackers learn to fly. You would think if knowing how
> >to fly would guarantee a successful hijacking, Auburn
> >Calloway (the FedEx hijacker) would have been a hijacker
> >success story. He was a Navy pilot, a martial arts
> >student, a fellow FedEx crewmember, and he took all the
> >weapons he needed: hammers, knives and a spear gun. He
> >didn't have to overcome any Flight Attendants or demand
> >they open the cockpit door. He just went back to his
> >bag, took out his hammer came back into the cockpit and
> >started crushing skulls. The crewmembers on that flight
> >didn't worry about Flight Attendants, they didn't worry
> >about passengers. All three pilots left the cockpit and
> >fought a hand-to-hand, life-or-death battle. To survive
> >today's hijacker, you cannot worry about your
> >passengers; you cannot worry about your Flight
> >Attendants. You must develop a mind-set that everyone
> >onboard, including yourself, is already dead. Because,
> >if the hijacker is successful in taking over your
> >airplane, not only you, your crew, your passengers and
> >your aircraft are lost, but thousands on the ground are
> >at risk.
> >
> > One of the reasons the FedEx crew survived, is
> >the extraordinary actions of the co-pilot. Although he
> >had brain injury, the co-pilot took the DC-10 and
> >immediately executed a half-roll. This maneuver took the
> >hijacker off his feet as the Captain and S/O were
> >struggling with him. During a point in the maneuver, the
> >hijacker, Captain and S/O were thrown back behind the
> >cockpit door. When he righted the airplane, the F/O then
> >left his seat and joined the fight in the galley area of
> >the plane. It was only after the Captain determined the
> >hijacker was subdued, he returned to the cockpit and
> >flew the airplane to landing.
> >
> > Very few of us have had to confront true evil.
> >Fewer still have seriously considered taking the life of
> >another human being. I believe this is the reason the
> >FedEx crew did not kill their attacker. The crew's
> >heroism that day is beyond belief and any action that
> >leads to a safe landing and recovery cannot be argued
> >with. But, when the Captain left the F/O and S/O,
> >thinking the situation was under control, he was
> >mistaken. The F/O and S/O had sustained serious, life-
> >threatening injuries. The hijacker had not. As the
> >Captain flew the aircraft, the hijacker, who had
> >surrendered, began the fight anew. As the airplane
> >landed, the hijacker was just moments away from
> >overcoming the two crewmembers. I mention this for your
> >consideration. I would suggest that you make the
> >conscious decision to kill anyone who tries to take your
> >airplane from you.
> >
> > Today we are at war. The hijacker who comes
> >through your cockpit door is going to kill you and
> >everyone onboard. So, how do you do that? What weapons
> >are available to us as pilots?
> >
> >The intercom.
> >
> > Command that all men come forward and fight the
> >hijackers. You have many able-bodied men onboard. They
> >are sitting in shock not knowing what to do. Command
> >they come forward and help you kill your attackers. And,
> >they will come.
> >
> >The airplane itself.
> >
> > Get the hijackers off their feet. Go into an
> >immediate dive to float them to the ceiling. Then
> >execute a 6G positive maneuver and hope they hit their
> >head or break their back as they hit the floor, galley
> >shelf, etc.
> >
> >Dump the cabin.
> >
> > Maybe one of the hijackers has a head cold.
> >
> >Pull the fire handles, shut the start levers and turn
> >the fuel valves off.
> >
> > If you loose the battle, at least the airplane
> >won't be used as a guided missile on a kamikaze mission.
> >With luck, maybe these guys didn't learn how to do an in-
> >flight restart. Then leave the cockpit, all of you, and
> >kill your attackers. Don't believe it when they
> >surrender. Don't be nice to them. KILL THEM.
> >
> >Flare Gun.
> >
> > If your airplane has one, the Captain might
> >consider making sure it's loaded and secured next to his
> >bag. I can think of nothing more satisfying than
> >watching a ball of burning phosphorous embedded into a
> >fanatic's gut, burning its way through him.
> >
> >
> >The crash-axe.
> >
> > I would suggest you have your co-pilot take it
> >from it's holder and secure it next to him so he has it
> >immediately available. Makes an excellent skull crusher.
> >
> >Your flashlight.
> >
> > The FAA use to require a 2 cell. A 3 cell Mag-
> >Light makes an excellent weapon. If your maneuvers have
> >the hijackers on the floor writhing in pain, crush their
> >skulls with it.
> >
> >Your stolen hotel bic pen.
> >
> > Drive it into an attacker's eye, ear, throat, or
> >into the area just under the jaw bone. That's a
> >particular interesting place to drive it, because when
> >he opens his mouth to scream, you can read Hyatt
> >sticking there.
> >
> >Your hand and fingers.
> >
> > Drive your fingers into his eyes and try to feel
> >your fingernails scrape the back of his eye sockets.
> >Scoop the eyeballs out. It will confuse the hell out of
> >him when he finds himself looking at his shoes as they
> >dangle there on the ocular nerves.
> >
> >Your teeth.
> >
> > Remember Hannabal Lecter. Eat a nose, a cheek,
> >or a finger. And keep eating. Attack with all
> >viciousness. A piranha is a small fish, but it's greatly
> >feared. A hijacker is not expecting you to eat him and
> >it might make him forget why he got on your airplane to
> >begin with. It will, at least, impress his buddies.
> >
> >Now here's my wish-list of things the FAA could do to
> >help, especially in this time of war.
> >
> >Arm the Captain.
> >
> > The battle is not going to require any long
> >shots and a small revolver would be a good choice. It
> >would hold off the attackers long enough for you to
> >disable your aircraft. If the attackers claimed the red
> >package they were holding was a bomb, I'd shoot out the
> >door glass and hope the door would be ripped out and the
> >hijacker and his package would be sucked out. And hey,
> >if I got sucked out with him, I'd try to fly myself to
> >the hijacker look in his face and laugh at him all the
> >way to the ground.
> >
> >Invite the local Police to jumpseat Police are always
> >looking for something free.
> >
> > Donut shops use to be a favorite target for
> >robbers, until they started giving donuts to the
> >Police. Robbers don't rob donut shops anymore. I would
> >suggest each Police Department send the FAA a list of
> >the best shots on the department and those guys and
> >their guns would be welcome on my airplane. Fill every
> >vacant seat with armed Police, give them a donut, and
> >tell them to shoot anyone who gives your Flight
> >Attendant any shit.
> >
> >Stop this silly no-knife rule.
> >
> > Make it public. Tell the public they're welcome
> >to bring their pocket knives onboard. Then everyone will
> >bring them. When you make your intercom call for help,
> >you'll have a dozen or more knife wielding helpers
> >trying to make sure their new Gerber tastes fanatics
> >blood. There are even a few of them who'd want to keep
> >ears as souvenirs.
> >
> > Law enforcement agencies are all aware there are
> >copy-cat criminals and fanatics. We have a number of
> >loony fanatical hate-groups here in the USA: ALF, PETA,
> >KKK, Army of God, Anti-abortionists, and the list goes
> >on. It doesn't matter the size of your airplane. Right
> >now, as I write this, there is an anti-abortionist
> >escapee here in the Memphis area. He's seen what
> >happened at the World Trade Center. A small commuter
> >plane would do a great job on an abortion clinic, or on
> >an animal research facility, or on a local synagogue,
> >mosque, etc., etc., etc. None of us is immune. Take some
> >time and consider your actions if this event should ever
> >happen. >>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
Hey - thought you'd enjoy an old "rocker" sounding off on our current
status - Jim
>
> Subject:
I'm a Bad American - Written by Ted Nugent
>
> Written by Ted Nugent, the rock singer and hunter/naturalist, upon hearing
> that California Senators B. Boxer and D. Feinstein denounced him for being
a
> "gun owner" and a "Rock Star". This was his response after telling the
> senators about his past contributions to children's charities and
> scholarship foundations, which have totaled more than $13.7 million in the
last 5 years!!
>
> I'm a Bad American - this pretty much sums it up for me. I like big
trucks,
> big boats, big houses, and naturally, pretty women. I believe the money I
> make belongs to me and my family, and not some midlevel governmental
> functionary with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack
addicts
> squirting out babies. I don't care about appearing compassionate.>
> I think playing with toy guns doesn't make you a killer. I believe
ignoring
> your kids and giving them Prozac might. I think I'm doing better than the
> homeless. I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. I
> have the right not to be tolerant of others because they are different,
> weird or make me mad. This is my life to live, and not necessarily up to
> others' expectations. I know what SEX is and there are not varying
degrees
> of it. I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. But if you want to that's fine; I just
don't feel like everyone else should have to.
>
> I believe that if you are selling me a Dairy Queen shake, a pack of
> cigarettes, or hotel room you do it in English. As of matter of fact, if
> you are an American citizen you should speak English. My uncles and
> forefathers shouldn't have had to die in vain so you can leave the
countries
> you were born in to come disrespect ours, and make us bend to your will.
Get over it!
>
> I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry butt if you're
running
> from them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word
'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the previous line. I don't use the
> excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for unpopular opinions or
> actions. I know how to count votes and I feel much safer letting a
machine
with no political affiliation do a recount when needed.
>
> I know what the definition of lying is, and it isn't based on the word
> "is"-ever. I don't think just because you were not born in this country,
> you qualify for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank
loans,
> etc., so you can open a hotel, 7-Eleven, trinket shop, or any thing else,
> while the indigenous peoples can't get past a high school education
because
they can't afford it.
>
> I didn't take the initiative in inventing the Internet. I thought the
Taco
> Bell dog was funny. I want them to bring back safe and sane fireworks. I
> believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, Ice-T or
> Marilyn Manson sang, but that doesn't mean I want to listen to that crap
> from someone else's car when I'm stopped at a red light. But I respect
your
right to do so.
>
> I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than
> working at Blockbuster or Jack In The Box. I don't want to eat or drink
> anything with the words light, lite or fat-free on the package. Our
> soldiers did not go to some foreign country and risk their lives in vain
and
> defend our Constitution so that decades later you can tell me it's a
living
> document ever changing and is open to interpretation. The guys who wrote
> it were light years ahead of anyone today, and they meant what they said -
now leave the document alone, or there's going to be trouble.
>
> I don't hate the rich. I help the poor. I know wrestling is fake. I've
> never owned, or was a slave, and a large percentage of our forefathers
> weren't wealthy enough to own one either. Please stop blaming me because
> some prior white people were idiots - and remember tons of white, Indian,
> Chinese, and other races have been enslaved too - it was wrong for every
one
of them.
>
> I believe a self-righteous liberal Democrat with a cause is more dangerous
> than a Hell's Angel with an attitude. I want to know exactly which church
> is it where the "Reverend" Jessie Jackson preaches; and, what exactly is
his
> job function. I own a gun, you can own a gun, and any red blooded
American
> should be allowed to own a gun, but if you use it in a crime, then you
will
serve the time.
>
> I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and
continue
> to make more. If it makes you mad, then invent the next operating system
> that's better and put your name on the building. (Ask your buddy that
invented the Internet to help you).
>
> I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Even suggesting it makes me
mad.
> You're telling me that someone who is a minority, gay, disabled, another
> nationality, or otherwise different from the mainstream of this country
has
> more value as a human being than I do as a white male. If someone kills
> anyone, I'd say that it's a hate crime. We don't need more laws! Let's
enforce the ones we already have.
>
> I think turkey bacon, turkey beef, turkey fake anything sucks. I believe
> that it doesn't take a village to raise a child-it takes a parent with the
> guts to stand up to the kid and spank his butt and say "NO!" when it's
> necessary to do so. I'll admit that the only movie that ever made me cry
was Ole Yeller.
>
> I didn't realize Dr. Seuss was a genius until I had a kid. I will not be
> frowned upon or be looked down upon or be made to keep silent because I
have
> these beliefs and opinions. I thought this country allowed me that right.
> I will not conform or compromise just to keep from hurting somebody's
> feelings. I'm neither angry nor disenfranchised, no matter how
desperately
the mainstream media would like the world to believe otherwise.
>
> Yes, I guess by some people's definition, I may be a bad American - but
> that's tough!
>
> Ted Nugent
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OPPOSE S.1416, Sec. 1062 |
For those of you interested in helping the effort to keep the government
from permanently grounding all warbird aircraft (if they are successful
here, who's to say they won't go after 40 yr. old Commanders next...), here
is a letter I recently wrote to Sen. John McCain. This is the second year
in a row they've tried to piggyback this abominable legislation through the
cracks. More info at www.aero-news.com. Feel free to copy the body of this
text and send to *your* favorite legislative officials...
Barry
>
> Sir, There is a bill floating around, S.1416, specifically Section 1062,
> that would authorize the Secretary of Defense to compel "demilitarization"
> of certain military equipment. This provision is a rebirth of Section 361 of
> the old HR4205, defeated last year. Please see that this section is deleted
> from S.1155.
> I am an avid World War II buff and military aviation enthusiast, and as part
> of that I collect and operate World War II-era aircraft. Flying
> demonstrations are a signficant part of any airshow and, as you are well
> aware, gave many of us the motivation to fly. Additionally, these flying
> displays instill patriotism and pride in our history.
>
> Frankly, there is not now, nor has there ever been, any argument that old
> military equipment in the hands of private citizens poses any threat to
> anyone. Rather, the provision is just one of those symbolic gestures that
> chips away at the essence of American principles for the sake of superficial
> political appeal and punishes some of the most patriotic citizens in our
> country.
>
> I fear that, in light of the horrible events of September 11, it would be
> politically difficult to oppose this provision, but I believe you have the
> stature and credentials to do so. Please use your influence to have this
> section deleted in its entirety. Thank you for your consideration.
>
> Barry Hancock
> Precision Flight Networks
> bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
> (949) 300-5510
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Falcon Jet sale rep? |
Pardon me for this "CQ" to the whole list, but I know we have a
Dassault/Falcon Jet sales rep (and AC-685 owner) on the list and an associate
has a very technical question about the Falcon 900EX FMS.
Can you please contact me?
Thanks!
(sorry guys, I know this isn't exaclty kosher)
Keith S. Gordon
aka Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
Be Carefull how much you listen to other peoples "GOOD ADVICE".
I for one am a DC-9 Captain who is appalled by a few of the things this guy
said.
Who in thier right mind would pull a 6 G turn????? (You just pulled the wings
off your airplane.)
Who in thier right mind would try a half roll to get someone off balance??? (
a 1/2 G negative push is just as effective, and much safer in a 100,000 to
900,000 pound plane!!!)
Who in thier right mind would discharge a flare gun inside an airplane. ( The
burning phosporous would surely start a fire that you could NEVER PUT OUT!!!)
The are lots of oppinions out there. You might think mine stinks as well,
but be carefull in what you choose to believe or incorporate.
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
Fortunately not all people listen to that kind of advice, Paul, and consider
it more a blowing off of steam than reason.
Fortunately the people who make decisions, ask people like you, who are in
the business, to advise them.
What I would like to know, is if the terrorist threat is of the nature that
more of the remedy is reactive rather than proactive, and every terrorist
that comes up with a new trick in the book, will slip through the network,
which we then, reactively, fix, why are passengers prevented from carrying
simple personal items like pocket knives and so on? Surely, there are only
two known components to the terrorist spectrum, namely, the source and the
end zone. The source is now being pursued by the military, and the end zone
is covered by air marshalls. But why inflict all this pain on the middle
tier, the passengers? So what if a passenger has a knife or a sword or a
machete, for that matter? Surely he (assuming it is a man) would quickly
meet his demise if he should be over zealous with his weapon. Terrorism is
basically the realm of the coward, so by merely knowing that an air marshall
is on board would deter the terrorist. I agree that we would want to avoid
passengers becoming a riotous mob in the plane trying to subdue a number of
terrorists, especially if there are armed marshalls on board, but passengers
normally would not want to get involved, which is perhaps the reason why
three of the four planes succeeded last week. Only once the fourth plane's
passengers learned of the success of the others, did they act. If there is
an official armed presence on board, I don't think passengers would get in
the way.
Just some thoughts.
Nico
an air marshal or an armed crew would deter
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:27 AM
Subject: Re:Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots
> Be Carefull how much you listen to other peoples "GOOD ADVICE".
>
> I for one am a DC-9 Captain who is appalled by a few of the things this
guy
> said.
>
> Who in thier right mind would pull a 6 G turn????? (You just pulled the
wings
> off your airplane.)
>
> Who in thier right mind would try a half roll to get someone off
balance??? (
> a 1/2 G negative push is just as effective, and much safer in a 100,000 to
> 900,000 pound plane!!!)
>
> Who in thier right mind would discharge a flare gun inside an airplane.
( The
> burning phosporous would surely start a fire that you could NEVER PUT
OUT!!!)
>
> The are lots of oppinions out there. You might think mine stinks as well,
> but be carefull in what you choose to believe or incorporate.
>
> Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
I agree Nico!! Air marshalls would help. However they are few and far
between today since the Cuban Highjackings have been a thing of the past
since the late 70's, early 80's.
You are also right about the pax onboard united flight 73 (or was it 74?),
They fought back when they learned of the other 3 airplanes demise.
I also think every pax on every flight today would stand up and resist. I
know when I now welcome everyone aboard I ask the able bodied men to watch my
back. I also tell them if they stand up to defend our flight against a
terrorist to pick up thier seat cushion and bring it with them to use as a
shield against anyone weilding a sharp weapon.
I close with this........If you can get the highjacker on the ground, I can
get the airplane on the ground. Then we'll let the F.B.I. deal with them.
God Bless America, and Welcome Aboard!!!!!
I have been saying this for the last 2 1/2 weeks. I have recieved praise
from the Aprox. 1100 people I have had on board in those weeks. Along with
claps, and cheers, and a few tears. Lot's of thumbs ups, accompanied by a
"will do" attitude.
I pitty the next dumb ass that attempts a high jacking, I really think the
pax will kill him before I can get the plane down!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
You are my favorite captain, Captain. I will particularly miss the times I
spent riding the jump-seat, but it is a small sacrifice to pay and rather
let nobody in there other than the crew of the flight.
Does a captain of an aircraft have the same 'command' privileges that a
captain of a ship (of greater than some length, of course) has? So, if you
invite your passengers to rise up against a terry, it is within your power
to do so?
I see the terry problem in three tiers, as I mentioned earlier, but allow me
to more solidify my thoughts on this. The quantifiable tiers are the First
and Third tiers. The First Tier, or also called the Source, is made up of
terrorist harboring countries, organizations, and individuals. The Middle
Tier is the industry at large, passengers, planes, airports, etc., and the
Third Tier is where the deed manifests itself. In the cockpit, on the ground
with an airborne threat, and so on.
The First Tier: Our intelligence failed to let us know even remotely how
these attacks would be carried out. I mean, it seems as if everybody knew,
and warned us, about something that's about to go down. And we still
couldn't figure it out or get closer to the operation? This tier is one of
the quantifiable and determinable components of the equation and there is
absolutely no excuse for not pursuing the rumblings that were evident even
in the media. Even with the liberties and privileges that the CIA and FBI
had before the attacks.
The Middle Tier: This is the vulnerable Tier, which, in my opinion, can
never be sealed off, unless we stop flying, of course. Putting restrictions
on the paying customer is to strangle the industry while it hardly has any
effect on security beyond that of 'feeling good,' a notion that got us in
this mess in the first place. The Third Tier is the final deterrent and as
long as we have the First and Third Tiers covered, which does not affect the
paying customer, the only restrictions we need to put on the Middle Tier is
to see that nobody can out perform the Third Tier. For instance, let people
take their shavers and knives on board with them, and use fancy silverware
during meals if they so desire. As long as the pilot and/or air marshal has
a gun, no terrorist will be motivated to venture on a mission that has a
huge percentage to fail. These terries prepared for years to execute this
mission, so they are not going to go up against odds that will provide a
huge chance of failure. And as long as that balance is hugely in our
favor, there will be no terrorist attack. To confiscate all shavers, safety
razors, is in normal circumstances very stupid and childish and should at
the very worst, be a very temporary measure, until the Third Tier is in
place. Even with the worst break-down of the First Tier in history, as this
was, had the Third Tier been in place even moderately, such as passengers
doing the work of air marshals, their mission would have failed.
The Third Tier: This tier is probably the least complicated. In defense of
the airline industry security policies, after the subsidence of the Cuba
hijackings, the hijackers themselves set a consistent tone of
grab-and-blackmail. This was the first, and probably the last, time that
there was no blackmail. The hijackers' own MO lulled us into a deep sleep of
a 'it couldn't happen to us' syndrome. All they had to do was change their
MO and we were had like suckers. Waging thousands of lives that the
terrorists wouldn't change their MO, was gross criminal negligence. Where
are the security brains of our society? Couldn't they have analyzed the
industry and seen that there are major risks involved that hinges on the
exclusive behavior of our enemies? We, as the general public, heard experts
warn us about something like this. Our enemies figured it out. But the First
Tier let these bastards slip through the cracks. Sorry, no cracks, huge
gaping holes in our defenses. After that, it was plain sailing for them.
These are just some thoughts on analyzing the problem. There are a lot more
to be said about their cost of the operation (which was insignificant), what
we were looking for and what they were mirroring to us. The foolish notion
that lobbing a few missiles onto an aspirin factory would endear us to the
Muslim world; that it is OK to tolerate incompetence in the workplace (I am
referring specifically to the low-class standards of airport security firms
as exposed in the media) and other liberal policies of destruction breeding
a generation of wimps and parasites.
Fixing the ills of our society could have come at a much cheaper price had
we only shown some balls when these thousands of people were still alive;
when these thousands and thousands of children still had their mommies and
daddies in the home; and before the time when watching a movie in which the
twin towers feature doesn't bring a lump to the throat.
If it will help, I would like to cuss very profusely now. But, alas, that,
too, would be fruitless.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots
> I agree Nico!! Air marshalls would help. However they are few and far
> between today since the Cuban Highjackings have been a thing of the past
> since the late 70's, early 80's.
>
> You are also right about the pax onboard united flight 73 (or was it 74?),
> They fought back when they learned of the other 3 airplanes demise.
>
> I also think every pax on every flight today would stand up and resist. I
> know when I now welcome everyone aboard I ask the able bodied men to watch
my
> back. I also tell them if they stand up to defend our flight against a
> terrorist to pick up thier seat cushion and bring it with them to use as a
> shield against anyone weilding a sharp weapon.
>
> I close with this........If you can get the highjacker on the ground, I
can
> get the airplane on the ground. Then we'll let the F.B.I. deal with them.
> God Bless America, and Welcome Aboard!!!!!
>
> I have been saying this for the last 2 1/2 weeks. I have recieved praise
> from the Aprox. 1100 people I have had on board in those weeks. Along
with
> claps, and cheers, and a few tears. Lot's of thumbs ups, accompanied by a
> "will do" attitude.
>
> I pitty the next dumb ass that attempts a high jacking, I really think
the
> pax will kill him before I can get the plane down!!!!
>
> Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
>
> If it will help, I would like to cuss very profusely now. But, alas,
that,
> too, would be fruitless.
>
> Nico
Perhaps, but *you* would feel better.
I can only hope the people responsible for our national security are asking
similar questions....
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | NEW LIST - PLEASE READ CAREFULLY! |
The majority has spoken and I, your humble servant, have
listened.
I have installed a NEW list address: commandertech.
I have added everyone to the new list.
COMMANDERTECH@C2-TECH.COM is for TECHNICAL and COMMANDER
discussions ONLY!!!! Any off-topic posting to commandertech
will result in a visit from Vinnie and Guido and a probable
trip to the emergency room :-)
COMMANDERCHAT@C2-TECH.COM can be used for general discussion
of most any topic as long as some sanity is maintained.
This is your social clubhouse and hangout. Please treat it
with respect.
If you would like to be removed from either list, please
email me DIRECTLY (ie: NOT to the list).
sincerely,
Chris Schuermann
PS: you should receive two copies of this email - one from
each list - as a cross-check
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | new e-mail address really |
MESSED THE LAST ONE UP THE NEW ADDRESS IS:
n414c(at)cableone.net
MILT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
For anyone who is not in a coma,Milt has six new addresses,but I can't
figure out why they are all the same!!!!!! AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
Here I thought I was the only one going "delete delete delete." I'm
Norwegian, but by the third or fourth (okay, by the sixth) one, I thought
something might be wrong! JJ in Seattle
-----Original Message-----
From:
Allen Reed [mailto:allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com]
Sent:
Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:02 PM
To:
commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject:
new address
For anyone who is not in a coma,Milt has six new addresses,but I can't
figure out why they are all the same!!!!!! AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
> Dear Commander People,
> My name is Fred Vanderburg and I am interested in buying a commander
> 685 and would like to find and talk to other owners. Can this site be
> of help to me?
> FV122846(at)aol.com
Fred,
I've added you to the two Commander email lists. Welcome aboard.
There are a number of 685 owners here who can almost certainly
answer any question you may have.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
> I have noticed a high pitched noise from the overhead
> vent system. I temporarily plugged the inlets and am eager to see if
> that is where the noise is coming from. Any suggestions??
JB,
Just brainstorming out of the box here...
We have problems measuring high-velocity gas flow due to
turbulance. The solution is to put "straightener vanes" in
the pipe. This noticably quiets the flow and gets rid of the
"screaming". I did a little experimentation and found that
I could accomplish the same affect (at low pressures/rates
compared to a natural gas line) by making a bundle of straight
drinking straws which just fit into a line....
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
And I thought I took some greif over the shirt.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net>
To: Allen Reed ;
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: RE: new address
> Here I thought I was the only one going "delete delete delete." I'm
> Norwegian, but by the third or fourth (okay, by the sixth) one, I thought
> something might be wrong! JJ in Seattle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Reed [mailto:allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:02 PM
> To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Subject: new address
>
> For anyone who is not in a coma,Milt has six new addresses,but I can't
> figure out why they are all the same!!!!!! AL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
You Fokkers are in for it now. There will be several of the famous shirts there
next year.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
That is very expensive skin conditioner, my friend! What a
hoot! I can see you in your shorts, doing everything you can to protect
certain areas from contamination . . . I bet Sue will keep her distance
for awhile now, Jimbob JJ in Seattle
-----Original Message-----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com [mailto:YOURTCFG(at)aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:43 PM
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: FUEL DRAIN
HI KIDS......
Did a little maintenance on triple 2 today. Installed a rebuild
sump drain valve, a most pleasant task. Done properly, one can run $2.70
per gal Av-gas al the way to one's jockey shorts!!
Anyway, it is done and leaks no more. Plan to buzz around a little
tomorrow weather permitting. I am really attacking the cabin noise issue.
I have noticed a high pitched noise from the overhead vent system. I
temporarily plugged the inlets and am eager to see if that is where the
noise is coming from. Any suggestions?? If it quiets it down, I will need
to find a way to leave the vent open but quite the whistle. When I flew
with Milt in the 685 (the quietest airplane I ever flew) I noticed the lack
of this noise and also the lack of the overhead vent system??
jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
In a message dated 9/27/01 4:48:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
<< If it will help, I would like to cuss very profusely now. But, alas, that,
too, would be fruitless. >>
You are right Nico, on all points.
I feel that there are only a few places in the U.S. where airport security is
REALLY GOOD. Those places that I have seen are mostly in the S.W. Florida
Region. I am sure that there are other retirement mecca's around the U.S.
that are similiar. Those places where the airport security is manned by
retiries is the best. They may be retired cops, ex military, or have a
masters or Dr. degree. And they take the job very seriously. When you can
make more money flippin burgers at Mc. Donalds, get into a 401(k), and have
full insurance, but you choose to be a security gaurd at Hartsfield because
you know you will never have to work or break a sweat..........Well you see
where I am going with this one.
I say put a .22 revolver in the seat back pocket of every seat on every
plane. Then nobody would have the balls to do anything!!!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
You know, Milt, you might be able to get a disability claim out of this
situation - anyone looking at the sheer volume of multiple strikes on the
keyboard could easily be led to believe that you had developed at the very
least, the early stages of carpal-tunnel syndrome. JJ
-----Original Message-----
From:
Cableone.net [mailto:n414c(at)cableone.net]
Sent:
Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:47 PM
To:
res00rbl; Allen Reed; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject:
Re: new address
And I thought I took some greif over the shirt.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net>
To: Allen Reed ;
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: RE: new address
> Here I thought I was the only one going "delete delete delete." I'm
> Norwegian, but by the third or fourth (okay, by the sixth) one, I thought
> something might be wrong! JJ in Seattle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Reed [mailto:allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:02 PM
> To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Subject: new address
>
> For anyone who is not in a coma,Milt has six new addresses,but I can't
> figure out why they are all the same!!!!!! AL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
All you need now, Milt, is the right pair of sunglasses.
"When you're cool, the sun shines on you alllll the time......"
----- Original Message -----
From: Cableone.net
To: Commander BSChat Chat
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:55 PM
Subject: Shirt
You Fokkers are in for it now. There will be several of the famous shirts there
next year.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
I am also going out on a limb here but I'm famous for it.
If you want to make airflow softer, make it more turbulent. Try to find some
wire wool that is so course that it resembles your wifes poofy thing (easy
guys!!) that she uses in the shower with her body wash. it will cut down on
airflow about 10%, but every thing has a trade off!!! Just stick it in the
airscoop!!!!
BUT WAIT!!!! IF YOU ORDER NOW YOU ALSO GET THE GINSU KNIFE!!! (Uhm, I mean,
it stops bugs from getting in the air system as well........)
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
In a message dated 9/27/01 4:48:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
<< If it will help, I would like to cuss very profusely now. But, alas, that,
too, would be fruitless. >>
You are right Nico, on all points.
I feel that there are only a few places in the U.S. where airport security is
REALLY GOOD. Those places that I have seen are mostly in the S.W. Florida
Region. I am sure that there are other retirement mecca's around the U.S.
that are similiar. Those places where the airport security is manned by
retiries is the best. They may be retired cops, ex military, or have a
masters or Dr. degree. And they take the job very seriously. When you can
make more money flippin burgers at Mc. Donalds, get into a 401(k), and have
full insurance, but you choose to be a security gaurd at Hartsfield because
you know you will never have to work or break a sweat..........Well you see
where I am going with this one.
I say put a .22 revolver in the seat back pocket of every seat on every
plane. Then nobody would have the balls to do anything!!!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi Jacking recommendations to Airline Pilots |
One more thought Nico.
I do have the lattitude to deviate to any extent I like to meet a situation..
However you will always be accountable for your actions if you live!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
NAH!!!!! Milts a Dr. for Christ sakes!!! He know Parkensons when he
seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssss iiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Milt,Just so everybody knows,I had a free shot about the lack of(other)
noise in your plane,but I did'nt take it.Your welcome. Al
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Hey Gang,I am truly sorry to have to get out of character but my red neck is
a glowing.This was truly a tradgedy of a magnitude we will never see
again,but if everone thinks for a moment what would have deterd them.It is
not the penal system of the USA.Just look at the ones responsible for the
first attack.Where are they?There sitting on their asses in jail while we
feed and clothe them and furnish them a lawyer who is trying to free them
because their civil rights were violated.What about the people who have no
civil rights because they're dead,and at the hands of someone who knew if
not successful at their mission they had no fear of death because some
bleeding heart ACLU member would twist our Constitution around to save the
life of some bastard who had robbed us of the rights set forth in that
document.If we are to get tough elswhere then DAMN IT we have to get tough
at home.Yes I think certain death for crimes is a deterent for certain
crimes,and the world needs to know that we will serve up the punishment here
and now and not have to risk our lives needlessly overseas! Al
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Ahh,What the Hell. Milt's shirt was so loud how could anyone hear any other
noise! Al
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Boeing Sales Brochure to Bin Laden |
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather n Bob
To: handb(at)pacbell.net
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 4:32 PM
Subject: FW: Boeing Sales Brochure to Bin Laden
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Whistle while you work |
In a message dated 09/27/01 17:57:04 Pacific Daylight Time, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
writes:
> When I flew with Milt in the 685 (the quietest airplane I ever flew) I
> noticed the lack of this noise and also the lack of the overhead vent
> system??
>
The AC-685 does have overhead air vents (WEMACs), but the air coming in from
the air cycle machine is probably a lot slower than the Mark 100
air-conditioning system on your 680-E.
(Mark 100 = it cools down after you reach 100 knots worth of ram air into the
vents.)
Flew in a friend's AC-500 and he had an annoying whistle in his vent system,
also. Probably a problem with the butterfly valve that routes air to the
defrost or to the floor, or, the whistle is off the ram air shut off valve.
Just my theories.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
It's that steady surgeon's hand on the send button!
Crunk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:02 PM
Subject: new address
> For anyone who is not in a coma,Milt has six new addresses,but I can't
> figure out why they are all the same!!!!!! AL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
Does that mean we get a new address for each shirt?
Crunk
----- Original Message -----
From: Cableone.net
To: Commander BSChat Chat
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:55 PM
Subject: Shirt
You Fokkers are in for it now. There will be several of the famous shirts there
next year.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Whistle while you work |
I wish I had enough air coming through mine to cause a whistle. The air only comes
out of the front, overhead vents. Even if I close them off and try to force
the air back to the aft vents I have little success. Down here in the south,
in the summer it can take all the fun out of it. Us fat boys sweat alot.
I can't seem to get any thing much out of the floor vents either.
Of course I'm still not sure about what those push/pull things that poke me in
the knee are for.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Sax <sams(at)aerothrust.com> |
| Subject: | Food for Thought |
<< On Monday there were people fighting against praying in schools
On Tuesday you would have been hard pressed to find a school where someone
was not praying
On Monday there were people were trying to separate each other by race,
sex, color and creed
On Tuesday they were all holding hands
On Monday we thought that we were secure
On Tuesday we learned better
On Monday we were talking about heroes as being athletes
On Tuesday we relearned what hero meant
On Monday people went to work at the world trade centers as usual
On Tuesday they died
On Monday people were fighting the 10 commandments on government property
On Tuesday the same people all said 'God help us all' while thinking 'Thou
shall not kill'
On Monday people argued with their kids about picking up their room
On Tuesday the same people could not get home fast enough to hug their kids
On Monday people picked up McDonalds for dinner
On Tuesday they stayed home
On Monday people were upset that their dry cleaning was not ready on time
On Tuesday they were lining up to give blood for the dying
On Monday politicians argued about budget surpluses
On Tuesday grief stricken they sang 'God Bless America'
On Monday we worried about the traffic and getting to work late
On Tuesday we worried about a plane crashing into your house or place of
business
On Monday we were irritated that our rebate checks had not arrived
On Tuesday we saw people celebrating people dying in the USA
On Monday some children had solid families
On Tuesday they were orphans
On Monday the president was going to Florida to read to children
On Tuesday he returned to Washington to protect our children
On Monday we emailed jokes
On Tuesday we did not
It is sadly ironic how it takes horrific events to place things into
perspective, but it has.
The lessons learned this week, the things we have taken for granted, the
things that
have been forgotten or overlooked, hopefully will never be forgotten again.
On Monday - pray and be thankful
On Tuesday - pray and be thankful
On Wednesday - pray and be thankful
On Thursday - pray and be thankful
On Friday - pray and be thankful
On Saturday - pray and be thankful
On Sunday - pray and be thankful >>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
I have a request to ask of all of you.
I note that we have some chatlist members who have their email
clients set up to request delivery notification. If you would,
please turn that feature off. Every posting results in hundreds
of emails back to ME telling me that the email was delivered :-)
Thanks,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Food for Thought |
It is sadly ironic how it takes horrific events to place things into perspective,
but it has.
It is human nature. Sad, but true. This is why it is so important to be vigilant
in our daily lives. We have the chance to change, or "get back" to what's
truly important, roughly 7000 people don't.
The lessons learned this week, the things we have taken for granted, the things
that
have been forgotten or overlooked, hopefully will never be forgotten again.
On Monday - pray and be thankful
On Tuesday - pray and be thankful
On Wednesday - pray and be thankful
On Thursday - pray and be thankful
On Friday - pray and be thankful
On Saturday - pray and be thankful
On Sunday - pray and be thankful >>
Amen.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john williams <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Guys,
The 560A is great! Having a wonderful time with her. It has an old Lear autopilot
in it that needs some work but still kinda functions. I started calling around
to some of the places around florida to check on the install of a new system.
Seems like S-Tec is the only company who has STC'd any units for the 560A.
They want @12K for a basic 2 axis installed and 18K for a more advanced unit
that would couple to a glide slope or provide any V-Nav guidence. HELP, HELP.
Does anyone have any ideas??? The thought of spending 18K for an autopilot in
a 560 makes me a little sick. Even 12k for a system 50 with no v-nav.I think
is kinda nuts. So what's up. Should I just shut up and write the check for what
I want or does anyone know if there are any options open to me?
Thanks
John Williams
305-745-8414
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Dear John(always wanted to write that) I am still new at the flying game but
understand,these old birds are so fast that unless you are going a long
ways(quite capable)if you had an auto pilot you would miss all the fun of
flying.The group was talking about an ANR system for the cockpit noise,but
then,that's also a part of these old birds that sets them apart.By the
way;is YUU Nawthun or SOUTHERN. BIG AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot 560A |
Welcome John,
Sorry this information is so old but it might still work. About 25 years ago there
was a company in Oklahoma City and I think the name was Autopilot Central.
They worked on Lear Autopilots. When it worked it was pretty neat.
bilbo
500A
X42
----- Original Message -----
From: john williams
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 3:40 PM
Subject: Autopilot 560A
Hi Guys,
The 560A is great! Having a wonderful time with her. It has an old Lear autopilot
in it that needs some work but still kinda functions. I started calling
around to some of the places around florida to check on the install of a new system.
Seems like S-Tec is the only company who has STC'd any units for the 560A.
They want @12K for a basic 2 axis installed and 18K for a more advanced unit
that would couple to a glide slope or provide any V-Nav guidence. HELP, HELP.
Does anyone have any ideas??? The thought of spending 18K for an autopilot
in a 560 makes me a little sick. Even 12k for a system 50 with no v-nav.I think
is kinda nuts. So what's up. Should I just shut up and write the check for what
I want or does anyone know if there are any options open to me?
Thanks
John Williams
305-745-8414
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot 560A |
http://www.autopilotscentral.com/
Autopilots Central has a web site and they are in Tulsa.
Chris, Do you know anything about them?
The S-Tech 40/50 has been installed in a number of Twin Commanders and does
include nav tracking ability.
Looks like the 65 has an STC. That is their big (Expensive) one.
http://www.s-tec.com/
The C-182RG that I have rented has a S-Tec 40 that tracks heading and
nav/GPS very well. The 50 adds altitude hold.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: w.bow [mailto:w.bow(at)att.net]
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 4:55 PM
To: john williams; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: Autopilot 560A
Welcome John,
Sorry this information is so old but it might still work. About 25 years
ago there was a company in Oklahoma City and I think the name was Autopilot
Central. They worked on Lear Autopilots. When it worked it was pretty
neat.
bilbo
500A
X42
----- Original Message -----
From: john williams <mailto:keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net>
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 3:40 PM
Subject: Autopilot 560A
Hi Guys,
The 560A is great! Having a wonderful time with her. It has an old Lear
autopilot in it that needs some work but still kinda functions. I started
calling around to some of the places around florida to check on the install
of a new system. Seems like S-Tec is the only company who has STC'd any
units for the 560A. They want @12K for a basic 2 axis installed and 18K for
a more advanced unit that would couple to a glide slope or provide any V-Nav
guidence. HELP, HELP. Does anyone have any ideas??? The thought of spending
18K for an autopilot in a 560 makes me a little sick. Even 12k for a system
50 with no v-nav.I think is kinda nuts. So what's up. Should I just shut up
and write the check for what I want or does anyone know if there are any
options open to me?
Thanks
John Williams
305-745-8414
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot 560A |
In a message dated 09/28/01 12:55:21 Pacific Daylight Time,
keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net writes:
> Should I just shut up and write the check for what I want or does anyone
> know if there are any options open to me?
Ohhhh boy! I LOVE spending other people's money! Thanks for the opportunity.
Yes, John, write that check. As far as I know, the STEC is the only modern,
*in production* autopilot that has ready approval for the Commanders.
The older autopilots -- Lears, Motorola, Bendix and the handful of Century
boxes -- are not realistically maintainable. The expertise and parts are
getting too rare.
Sure, there are a few graybeards that know how to work on the old boxes and
servos but you have to ask yourself: Do you want to be tied to only one or
two avionics shops in the entire U.S.?
In the days when I was nursing along some of these units in various
Commanders, I had the techs shake their heads and tell me "these are about at
the end of their road." That was 4 years ago.
That's what my opinion is based on. Some of our email net members may have a
different and cheaper and happier perspective .
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot 560A |
In a message dated 9/28/01 8:06:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
<<
Yes, John, write that check. As far as I know, the STEC is the only
modern,
*in production* autopilot that has ready approval for the Commanders.
The older autopilots -- Lears, Motorola, Bendix and the handful of Century
boxes -- are not realistically maintainable. The expertise and parts are
getting too rare. >>
GARY GADBERRY TOLD ME THAT THE CENTURY THREE IN THE AIRPLANE HE SOLD ME WAS A
GREAT AUTOPILOT.
IT WOULD DO ANYTHING I WANTED. HE ALSO SAID IT WAS FULLY COUPLED WHICH IT
ISN'T.
JIM FURLONG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
Gday Capt Jimbob,
Psssst... On the grapevine it would seem that a new STC is evolving around
the vent problem. Principally, it involves taking the sleeves of Milts
shirts and scrunching them up really tight and then plugging up the vent
lines. Apparently the bright colours stop the material from going mouldy and
scares away pesky varmints.
And the really good news... The mod carries a two year guarantee based on
the materials legendary and proven ability to stop no-label leaking out!
Just a thought that might help from downunder!!
Cheers and beers as always
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot 560A |
In a message dated 09/29/01 07:30:32 Pacific Daylight Time,
keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net writes:
> If this guy in down here can get this lear working properly(relative term)
>
John,
(I am going to bounce this to the commander tech net as well as answer you
directly)
That's such a tricky question. It would be a good thing if he can: Good for
you; good news for the rest of the units out there. Quite frankly, I don't
know anyone who has a functioning Lear autopilot at this point in history.
If he can get it working, can it be kept working?
Several of the guys on the net mentioned Autopilot Central in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Well ... those are the graybeards I was referring to in my original post and
they are the ones who see a very limited future for many of the older systems.
Better to get their assessment, I may have caught them on a bad day.
(actually, that would have been several bad days as I've brought several
Commanders to them.)
Contact:
Autopilot Central
Hangar 23
3112 N. 74th East Avenue
Tulsa OK 74115
tel 918-836-6418
fax 918-835-3534
attn: Bob Ferguson (if he's still there)
Run your question past them -- and let us know their take on the old Lear
autopilots.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
Way too funny, Russell thanks for continuing the saga of the
shirt. JJ in Seattle
-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Legg [mailto:rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au]
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 12:28 AM
To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: WIND NOISE
Gday Capt Jimbob,
Psssst... On the grapevine it would seem that a new STC is evolving around
the vent problem. Principally, it involves taking the sleeves of Milts
shirts and scrunching them up really tight and then plugging up the vent
lines. Apparently the bright colours stop the material from going mouldy and
scares away pesky varmints.
And the really good news... The mod carries a two year guarantee based on
the materials legendary and proven ability to stop no-label leaking out!
Just a thought that might help from downunder!!
Cheers and beers as always
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | He's been found!!! |
Have fun, guys! Jim & Lori
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Go Around ... or Groom? |
According to my calculations, unless Barry Hancock put the power to it and
did a missed approach and flew out his reserves, he's now Mrs. Barry Hancock,
or however that name thing works.
We haven't lost N680E, we've gained a 680-E owner-in-law.
Congratulations, Mr. & Mrs. Hancock!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
Gents:
I too am curious about the 685. I was hoping you folks that have them now or have
previous time in them could tell the rest of us what the beast is like. Is
it really that quiet? What are the "real world" numbers for it; fuel flow, speed,
typical altitudes, etc. Have any of you flown them out of high density
altitude runways (Denver, Aspen, Prescott for example) with regularity? Are there
any major caveats (other than the typical Commander stuff) that a buyer needs
to be aware of? Also, I'm real curious about the reliability of them compared
to other Commanders.
I appreciate any insights you might share.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 09/29/01 19:38:13 Pacific Daylight Time,
dmaytag(at)commspeed.net writes:
> Are there any major caveats (other than the typical Commander stuff) that a
> buyer needs to be aware of? Also, I'm real curious about the reliability
>
David,
Welcome to the Commander technical email net. This is a case where archived
email would be great; this topic was flying around a few months ago and lots
of info was posted.
I'm sure that the lads who currently operate the 685 model will pitch in with
up-to-date fuel burns and cruise TAS info. If they don't I'll go to my
storage locker and pull out the trend monitoring sheets from my AC-685
operations.
I've often said that the piston Commander is the "57 Chevy of aircraft."
That being so, the 685 has to be the Cadillac. (At ease, gentlemen. I'm not
extolling virtues of particular cars, just using a metaphor. Let's not jump
on Corvettes, Mustangs, Lincolns or Edsels)
The 685 is the quietest piston twin I've flown. It's also quieter than any
turbo prop and let's see ... almost every jet's cockpit I've worked in at low
altitude.
It's big, roomy, smooth and quiet. A great cruising aircraft. That's the
Cadillac part. Keep in mind, this was Rockwell's marketing department's idea
to bridge the Shirke and the Turbo Commander. It's fully a Turbo Commander
airframe and (relevant) systems with piston engines. Was this a good idea or
bad? Well, you and a lot of other guys are still attracted to it!
It does not share the rest of the piston line's reputation for runway
performance or time to climb. The rule of thumb is that "if you roll into
position for take off and can see the other end of the runway, it's too
short."
Having quoted Yoda -- a.k.a. Morris Kernick, I'll admit to operating
routinely out of Lee Summit, Missouri, airport: 4000 ft. runway at 1000 MSL
and other "Hog Belt" airports of similar altitude and length.
High DENALT airports are safely possible if you study the day VFR route
you'll fly in the advent of an engine failure. I would not attempt a low IFR
departure out of any airport above 4000 MSL; you will not make standard IFR
departure climb gradients in the case of an engine failure, unless it's a
scenario like Denver where you can run out to the east over lowering flat
terrain or return for landing.
The only other major caveat is the Continental GTSIO-520-K engine. Three
things to keep in mind. In the Cessna 421 series, this power plant is
producing 385 hp. In the Commander it's pushed to 435 hp. Don't feel badly
if you do everything absolutely right and you still have to do a few
cylinders each year. That's a lot of power to extract out of 520 cubic
inches.
Another caveat is on the maintenance side. This GTSIO-520, although nearly
identical to the Cessna 421 installation does have a different fuel metering
system. A Cessna mechanic, thinking he knows this engine will do you a
tremendous disservice if he doesn't read the Mx manual on -K engine and it's
fuel injection system.
Lately there has been discussion about a high incident of engine fires in the
AC-685 series and quiet honestly, this was the first I'd heard of it. I'm
not surprised; the entire Cessna twin engine fleet with turbo charged
Continental engines has a huge A.D. on the exhaust systems due to fires. It
gets down to preventative maintenance, as always.
Temperature has tremendous impact on this model Commander's rate of climb.
In the winter it's almost a sprite, for piston aircraft of its weight. In
the summer, it's a slug.
OK, that's all the nasty stuff. If your trip profiles allow adequate runways
and obstacle-free escape routes in the event of engine failure at higher
DENALTs, you can't find a more comfortable and delightful flying pressurized
twin.
Keep in mind I'm a bit prejudiced. I'm sure the current AC-685 operators
will tell you I'm completely wrong. ;-)
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot 560A |
>Autopilots Central has a web site and they are in Tulsa.
>
>Chris, Do you know anything about them?
I have only limited interaction with these guys. The seem
to know what they're doing and have a large clientele of
corporate aircraft (Mainly mitsu's). I can't say they are
the friendliest folks to deal with though.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
I have a problem with this weight thing. How does this FAA 6,000 lb. weight
limit thingie affect us heavier Commander folks. I'm at 6250 in the 500A
and I know all newer ones are higher than that.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight problem |
"w.bow" wrote:
>
> I have a problem with this weight thing. How does this FAA 6,000 lb. weight
> limit thingie affect us heavier Commander folks.
It's probably not that big of a deal for most of us. Here's the
exact part of the NOTAM:
FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS (SEE DEFINITION) WITHIN "ENHANCED CLASS B
AIRSPACE", EXCEPT THE BOSTON "ENHANCED CLASS
B AIRSPACE" AREA AND EXCEPT FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN THE NEW YORK AND
WASHINGTON DC TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION
AREAS, VFR FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS AND SUPERVISED STUDENT SOLO
OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR SINGLE AND
MULTI-ENGINE NON-TURBOJET POWERED, NON-POWERED, AND ROTOR DRIVEN
PISTON POWERED AIRCRAFT WITH A MAXIMUM
CERTIFICATED TAKEOFF GROSS WEIGHT OF 6000 POUNDS OR LESS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard E. Brown, Sr. <pawpaw1(at)starband.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot 560A |
Auto pilot central are good guys. used them several times.
Richard Brown
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: Autopilot 560A
> >Autopilots Central has a web site and they are in Tulsa.
> >
> >Chris, Do you know anything about them?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight problem |
So does that mean it is a training thing, not effecting us regular ole "put
arounders"
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Weight problem
> "w.bow" wrote:
> >
> > I have a problem with this weight thing. How does this FAA 6,000 lb.
weight
> > limit thingie affect us heavier Commander folks.
>
> It's probably not that big of a deal for most of us. Here's the
> exact part of the NOTAM:
>
> FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS (SEE DEFINITION) WITHIN "ENHANCED CLASS B
> AIRSPACE", EXCEPT THE BOSTON "ENHANCED CLASS
> B AIRSPACE" AREA AND EXCEPT FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN THE NEW YORK AND
> WASHINGTON DC TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION
> AREAS, VFR FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS AND SUPERVISED STUDENT SOLO
> OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR SINGLE AND
> MULTI-ENGINE NON-TURBOJET POWERED, NON-POWERED, AND ROTOR DRIVEN
> PISTON POWERED AIRCRAFT WITH A MAXIMUM
> CERTIFICATED TAKEOFF GROSS WEIGHT OF 6000 POUNDS OR LESS.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight problem |
Bow wrote:
>
> So does that mean it is a training thing, not effecting us regular ole "put
> arounders"
Correct. As of the last update I read, basicly ALL IRF and VFR ops
are permitted outside of "enhanced" class B space. VFR ops are
prohibited inside "enhanced" class B.
There are LOTs of new TFRs - some change daily. Make sure to
call FSS before flying to see what's new.
I still think it's whacky that an instructor can't fly VFR inside
class B, but he can allow a student to solo VFR inside that same
airspace....
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight problem |
In a message dated 9/30/01 8:48:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
<<
I still think it's whacky that an instructor can't fly VFR inside
class B, but he can allow a student to solo VFR inside that same
airspace....
Chris
>>
IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT NO ONE CAN FLY VFR IN CLASS B AIRSPACE. IT IS MY
UNDERSTANDING THAT CLASS B AIRSPACE IS NO LONGER AN UPSIDE DOWN WEDDING CAKE
BUT IS A CYLINDER FROM THE SURFACE TO INFINITY. ERGO PALO ALTO, CA AIRPORT,
WHICH USED TO BE UNDER A LAYER OF CLASS B AIRSPACE NOW IS IN THAT AIRSPACE AS
A RESULT OF THIS NEW CYLINDER AND NO ONE CAN FLY VFR FROM THE AIRPORT
--------- WITH THIS EXCEPTION --- A STUDENT FLYING IN THE PATTERN WITH AN
INSTRUCTOR. THIS IS WHAT I WAS TOLD AT PALO ALTO AIRPORT ON THURSDAY BY
LOCAL INSTRUCTORS.
JIM FURLONG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight problem |
Furlong5(at)aol.com wrote:
> IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT NO ONE CAN FLY VFR IN CLASS B AIRSPACE.
From www.aopa.org
Operations permitted inside enhanced Class B airspace:
IFR operations (except for the enhanced Boston Class B and the
Washington and New York TFRs).
VFR flight training in piston single- and multi-engine non-turbojet
aircraft with a gross weight of 6,000 pounds or less (except for the
enhanced Boston Class B and the Washington and New York TFRs).
Supervised student solo flight (except in the Boston enhanced Class B
and the Washington and New York TFRs).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Enhanced Class B |
I have been flying from Palo Alto lately. Indeed, you can NOT leave the
airport on a VFR flight plan unless you have an instructor aboard. I've been
filing IFR, taking off IFR, and then canceling when I've reached the limits
of class B, which, as Jim pointed out, is no longer a wedding cake but a
very fat cylinder.
It's kind of a pain, but the controllers are doing their best to minimize
the impact. On the way back from Tahoe yesterday, I filed a flight plan
beginning at an intersection just outside the class B limit. They vectored
me direct to my destination and made it very easy.
I only feel bad for the number of VFR pilots who are stuck. Especially since
I was one of them until just this July...
/J
PS: When I got back to my airplane in South Lake Tahoe yesterday, Randy
Sharp's very pretty 500-B was parked next to mine. Remember y'all, it's for
sale! Randy, hope you had a good time in Tahoe!
----- Original Message -----
From: <Furlong5(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Weight problem
> In a message dated 9/30/01 8:48:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
>
> <<
> I still think it's whacky that an instructor can't fly VFR inside
> class B, but he can allow a student to solo VFR inside that same
> airspace....
>
> Chris
> >>
> IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT NO ONE CAN FLY VFR IN CLASS B AIRSPACE. IT IS
MY
> UNDERSTANDING THAT CLASS B AIRSPACE IS NO LONGER AN UPSIDE DOWN WEDDING
CAKE
> BUT IS A CYLINDER FROM THE SURFACE TO INFINITY. ERGO PALO ALTO, CA
AIRPORT,
> WHICH USED TO BE UNDER A LAYER OF CLASS B AIRSPACE NOW IS IN THAT AIRSPACE
AS
> A RESULT OF THIS NEW CYLINDER AND NO ONE CAN FLY VFR FROM THE AIRPORT
> --------- WITH THIS EXCEPTION --- A STUDENT FLYING IN THE PATTERN WITH AN
> INSTRUCTOR. THIS IS WHAT I WAS TOLD AT PALO ALTO AIRPORT ON THURSDAY BY
> LOCAL INSTRUCTORS.
>
> JIM FURLONG
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 9/30/01 10:26:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com writes:
<< I asked, when will this return to normal, without hesitation
he said "never," art least that is what the powers to be are telling him.
NEVER! We, GA are taking the only government hit. Every other segment of
aviation is back to normal (except no one wants to ride on an airliner)
except the segment that had NOTHING to do with this even!! Can you believe
what we have lost?? It is said that you never really appreciate a thing
until it is gone, man is that true.
I am so glad I got to fly that last trip, that last VFR ride past the
space needle at night. so sad..........................jb
>>
JIM, WITHOUT BEING PARANOID ABOUT THE FAA IT IS MY BELIEF THAT THE CURRENT
RESTRICTIONS ARE WHAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS WANTED. HOWEVER, I LIVE IN HOPES
THAT AOPA AND SOME OF OUR REPRENTATIVES IN CONGRESS WILL COME TO OUR AID.
REGARDING AIRLINE TRAVEL I AM STILL AIRLINE BOUND BECAUSE OF THE MY
AIRPLANE'S CONTINUED PROBLEMS. I TOOK ALASKA FROM PORTLAND TO SAN JOSE, CA
LAST WEDNESDAY AND THERE WERE STILL A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THE AIRPORT. I TOOK
SOUTHWEST ON FRIDAY FROM SAN JOSE TO BURBANK, CA AND THE AIRPLANE WAS FULL
WITH PEOPLE ON STANDBY. THE SAN JOSE AIRPORT WAS ALSO VERY VERY BUSY.
SOUTHWEST, I HEARD, IS THE ONLY AIRLINE THAT HAS NOT LAID OFF PEOPLE.
JIM FURLONG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Go Around ... or Groom? |
What did I miss????????????
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 5:53 PM
Subject: Go Around ... or Groom?
According to my calculations, unless Barry Hancock put the power to it and did
a missed approach and flew out his reserves, he's now Mrs. Barry Hancock, or
however that name thing works.
We haven't lost N680E, we've gained a 680-E owner-in-law.
Congratulations, Mr. & Mrs. Hancock!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Go Around ... or Groom? |
In a message dated 09/30/01 11:51:25 Pacific Daylight Time,
n414c(at)cableone.net writes:
>
Barry Hancock got married on Saturday!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
Jim, I empathize with your situation up there. I used to live at Crest Airpark
(S36) and I would absolutely go nuts without the ability to go on those evening
flights. I was truly a pleasure and a privilege to be able to get up out of
the trees and look around. Even with that, the climate finally got the best
of me and I had to come back to Arizona.
I have been wondering what it was like up there since these restrictions came down
on us. I've been lucky here as there is not much airspace to contend with.
I've been trying to pick a fight with an F-16 all week but I think they know
they just can't turn with an old Helio Courier!
Anyway, I'm writing letters to my Senators and chipping in a little more to AOPA.
(Speaking of Senators, I am embarrassed to admit that I voted for McCain even
though I knew he was an enemy of GA, but I want you all to know that I have
signed the recall petition and I am on the cause to get rid of him!) I shudder
to think what will happen if those bastards do anything with a small plane
VFR or IFR.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 09/30/01 12:06:35 Pacific Daylight Time,
keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net writes:
> ?
Yes. At our age (the fleet that is), it's epidemic.
As discussed here recently, the first -- and cheapest -- place to look is the
flap control handle. Is it in the full up or neutral detent?
If you place the flap handle in neutral, it may not be were you think it is.
Many of the fleet's neutral detent is hard to nail down as the friction
point is worn away. Try a little wiggling and feel for just that right
spot. You wife has said the same thing to you, no doubt.
Next plan of attack is to rebuid the flap / landing gear control valve
assembly. At its age, it probably has trouble holding fluid for long periods
of time.
Actually, I was wrong. The cheapest / easiest way to deal with drooping
flaps is live with it. Lots of Commanders do. It's not a crime against
nature.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
Combine this with Wing Commander Gordon's response and you should get a pretty
good picture of the 685.
Book numbers are close to actual performance except in 2 categories.
Climb both single and multi engine performance is substantially less than book.
Short field landing. Either the short field landing or standard landing graph in
the book is in error and I dont know which. (more on this in another message)
Basically dont land anywhere not long enough to takeoff. The brakes are phenomenal
and you can safely get into a strip you can't get out of.
Yes its QUIET I had an intercom installed before I flew it much and now I never
turn it on. Dont even know where my headphones are.
I fly 65-70% power (I think) 32" and 2500RPM at 15000-18000 ft and get 195Kts
TAS consistently. I still dont have full pressurization so 18k is my ceiling. One
of the other 685s in the group is flying 21000' and getting 210Kts tas.
At my power settings I consume 46-48gph depending on load.
With full tanks (322gal) you get six and one half hours endurance or about 1300NM
just like the book says. The problem (no wise ass comments guys) with full
tanks and me the plane is at gross 9000#. This has been the problem with most
of the 685s lost. They were over gross and this aircraft simply will not stay
in the air on one engine when over gross.
On the way to HIO lsat month we took off from Rock Springs Wyo which is I believe
about 6000' msl. We were at or slightly above gross with 6 people and about
260 gallons (1560#) of fuel. We got off OK but our climb was between 150 and
250 FPM. It was severe clear and we could have seen where to go if we lost one
but our only option would have been down. We certainly could not have cleared
the ridges and peaks in close proximity to the airport. This is not a plane for
mountain IFR at, near, or above max gross.
Having said that it performs nicely out of low level strips at or below gross if
flown correctly. In spit of what the manual says I use 1/8-1/4 flaps on takeof
and routinely am off the ground in 2000', The real need for a long runway is
start/stop distance which is considerable. When not overloaded it gives adequate
climb performanc for most regions of the country this side of Denver.
If you like to go far,fast and high with a moderate load this is a good plane.
If you need to get in and out of airports with less than 4-5000' runways it aint
a good plane. If most of your flying is in and out of the Rockies I wouldnt
consider it.
You cannot carry full fuel, 8 passengers, and go 1000 miles nonstop.
Its great IFR and turbulence flies the most stable approaches I have ever flown
even in strong winds and turbulence. Once you get stabilized its hard to nock
off course.
Of course having the shirt makes it fly even better.
Hope I answered some of your questions.
Keith Gordon actually used to fly my plane for a 135 op.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: David Maytag
To: tech line
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 9:26 PM
Subject: 685's
Gents:
I too am curious about the 685. I was hoping you folks that have them now or
have previous time in them could tell the rest of us what the beast is like.
Is it really that quiet? What are the "real world" numbers for it; fuel flow,
speed, typical altitudes, etc. Have any of you flown them out of high density
altitude runways (Denver, Aspen, Prescott for example) with regularity? Are
there any major caveats (other than the typical Commander stuff) that a buyer
needs to be aware of? Also, I'm real curious about the reliability of them compared
to other Commanders.
I appreciate any insights you might share.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | 685 flight manual landing charts |
There are 2 charts in the 685 flight manual relating to landing distance.
#1 is in the performance section and is labelled
" LANDING DISTANCES FROM 50 FT HEIGHT "
#2 is in the manufacturers data section and is labelled
" SHORT FIELD LANDING DISTANCE FROM 50 FT HEIGHT "
My problem is that using the same data for altitude, temp, and weight the short
field chart gives landing distances greater than the standard landing chart to
the magnitude of 800-1200 feet.
Anybody have any idea which chart is correct (KEITH)?
Based on actual aircraft performance I think the short field chart is wacky.
Also for those of you who want it I have converted all of the 685 performance charts
to an excel spreadsheet format that is accurate to within 10% of book numbers
on the conservative side.
If you want a copy let me know and I'll send one.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 685 flight manual landing charts |
In a message dated 09/30/01 13:28:30 Pacific Daylight Time,
n414c(at)cableone.net writes:
>
There had to be some mislabeling of charts there. I remember finding the
same anomaly, but thought the notion of "Short Field Landing" in the model
685 to be an academic exercise because, as you so correctly pointed out, you
don't want to get in to a runway that short if you ever plan on taking off
again.
Speaking of Manufacturer's data, many of the Commanders will have these
charts. They are what was done in flight test but was not submitted as data
towards FAA certification.
If you look closely at some of them you'll find approach speeds (for example)
in the standard 1.3 Vso in the performance section and approach speeds of 1.2
or 1.15 Vso in the Manufacturer's data.
Not that anyone would advocate flying an approach at anything less than the
standard 1.3 Vso in a Commander ....
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
Let me get this straight.
You cant fly the seacat out but a CFI can stand at the edge of the water and OK
a student pilot to fly it out. Is that correct?
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 12:25 PM
Subject: SEA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | garyloff <n27kb(at)erols.com> |
I am very close to the current situation at least more so than most. I can
tell you that the FAA is not the enemy here. The NSC hasn't a clue as they
get there critical thinking skills from Tom Clancy novels.
The FAA is trying to get the airspace opened but they are not in control
it's the SECDEF.
Let me relate two stories to show how out of touch and completely ignorant
the NSC is. The reason they opened up IFR "controlled" flight is they
originally thought that "controlled" meant that someone on the ground had
actual phyisical control of the aircraft, I kid you not.
One of the arguments for keeping GA at bay was voiced by another one of
these political appointed mental migets was put inthe form of the following
question.
"What happens if a terrorist puts a 3 thousand lbs atomic bomb (yes the
words "atomic bomb" and 3 thousand lbs instead of yield were used)in one of
these small training airplanes and flies it into the Capitol ?" The FAA
official and GA pilot responded with "I imagine the same thing as if they
loaded it into a car or truck and drove it in". He then went on to educate
the official about actual capabilities of light aircraft.
My airfield falls within 12 miles of the Capitol Building and remains closed
to all but 135. So if Osama minions wanted to charter a 421 they could but
the guys who have based here cannot move their ships. Some of the guys who
base here are active duty flag officers and several are very high up the
govt food chain but their grounded.
I urged patience after the 11th but now is the time to start to make some
polite noise as those in the Congress that would kill GA are seizing this
opportunity.
gary
----- Original Message -----"
From: <Furlong5(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: SEA
> In a message dated 9/30/01 10:26:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> YOURTCFG(at)aol.com writes:
>
> << I asked, when will this return to normal, without hesitation
> he said "never," art least that is what the powers to be are telling him.
> NEVER! We, GA are taking the only government hit. Every other segment of
> aviation is back to normal (except no one wants to ride on an airliner)
> except the segment that had NOTHING to do with this even!! Can you
believe
> what we have lost?? It is said that you never really appreciate a thing
> until it is gone, man is that true.
> I am so glad I got to fly that last trip, that last VFR ride past
the
> space needle at night. so sad..........................jb
> >>
> JIM, WITHOUT BEING PARANOID ABOUT THE FAA IT IS MY BELIEF THAT THE
CURRENT
> RESTRICTIONS ARE WHAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS WANTED. HOWEVER, I LIVE IN HOPES
> THAT AOPA AND SOME OF OUR REPRENTATIVES IN CONGRESS WILL COME TO OUR AID.
>
> REGARDING AIRLINE TRAVEL I AM STILL AIRLINE BOUND BECAUSE OF THE MY
> AIRPLANE'S CONTINUED PROBLEMS. I TOOK ALASKA FROM PORTLAND TO SAN JOSE,
CA
> LAST WEDNESDAY AND THERE WERE STILL A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THE AIRPORT. I
TOOK
> SOUTHWEST ON FRIDAY FROM SAN JOSE TO BURBANK, CA AND THE AIRPLANE WAS FULL
> WITH PEOPLE ON STANDBY. THE SAN JOSE AIRPORT WAS ALSO VERY VERY BUSY.
> SOUTHWEST, I HEARD, IS THE ONLY AIRLINE THAT HAS NOT LAID OFF PEOPLE.
>
> JIM FURLONG
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
CloudCraft@aol
.com To: dmaytag(at)commspeed.net
cc: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
30/09/2001 Subject: Re: 685's
05:50
.......Keep in mind, this was Rockwell's marketing department's idea to
bridge the Shirke and the Turbo Commander..........
S H I R K E Commander?
Now, I thought Rockwell got the 500S Certificated in both the Standard &
Utility categories to emphasise its workhorse-like reputation.
In fairness, I seem to recall one edition of a brochure for the Shrike had
the same mistake !!!
Barry C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Go Around ... or Groom? |
> In a message dated 09/30/01 11:51:25 Pacific Daylight Time, n414c(at)cableone.net
> writes:
>
>
> What did I miss????????????
>
>
> Barry Hancock got married on Saturday!
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
Gday to all on both nets,
We are indebted to WC Keith for the tip (thanks Keith)!
Please join me all in posing a toast to Barry during his big week!
Heres to Barry (the four engine take-off nut...exhaust augmented
heaven)...Barry, as you read this, I am raising a celebratory frosted glass
of Abbots Lager here in Oz!
Congratulations Mate!
Cheers and frosted glasses of Abbots
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot 560A |
In the South East U.S. the best people I know to work on an old Autopilot is
a company in Macon, GA. They are LOWE'S Avionics. They can fix almost
anything.!!!!! Of course due to age of the system the "FIX" will only be
gaurenteed until V1, or the rotation, which ever comes first.
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Hey John!!!!! You need to rebuild the flap selector lever I bet. Try this,
leave the flap lever in the up position and see how long it takes for the
flaps to fall. Then leave the flap selector in the off, nuetral, position,
and see if there is a difference.
If the flap actuator was leaking you should see the fluid loss somewhere.
But the Selector lever valve can bypass internally with no loss of fluid.
I flew a 500A that would hold the flaps up for a month in the "OFF" position,
but would let them drop completely in only 2 hours if left in the "UP"
position.
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 10/01/01 01:44:08 Pacific Daylight Time,
Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk writes:
> S H I R K E Commander?
>
>
>
> Now, I thought Rockwell got the 500S Certificated in both the Standard &
> Utility categories to emphasise its workhorse-like reputation.
>
I'm glad our Minister of Accuracy isn't shirking his duty.
Well done, Sir Barry.
I'm laying down for a nap now; there's much work to be done.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Enhanced Class B |
john(at)vormbaum.com said:
>PS: When I got back to my airplane in South Lake Tahoe yesterday, Randy
>Sharp's very pretty 500-B was parked next to mine. Remember y'all, it's for
>sale! Randy, hope you had a good time in Tahoe!
Hi John,
I parked next to you for two reasons...
I wanted to have a line up of 500Bs on the ramp to show off what real
airplanes look like.
(and two to show my wife what a turbo deiced airplane looks like)
She is actually starting to look at the Controller ads for an airplane
after I told her the possibility of selling our plane would force us to
drive to Tahoe every weekend.
(I've never seen her so interested in looking at aircraft sales before)
btw How effective is your combination deice and turbo power in the Tahoe
area?
I realize you haven't had a lot of IFR time yet but do you plan on flying
into Tahoe if
the winter conditions warrant it?
If I can't find anything that matches my 500B (nothing has yet) then I
might install the Turbos and Deice and keep the 500B.
Next time in Tahoe give us a call 530 543-0733 and come by the cabin so
we can play a couple of games of pool etc.
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Randy Sharp wrote:
> If I can't find anything that matches my 500B (nothing has yet) then I
> might install the Turbos and Deice and keep the 500B.
Randy,
Add a set of MRRPM rayjays (or a 350hp Merlyn Conversion), TKS
"weeping-wing" de-ice, and a set of fuzzy dice and keep the 500B!
If you could get a nice turbine, that would be wonderful, but I'd
think that even with the Merlyn mods that you'd still end up a
lot cheaper (including operation) with the "B"....
You could even call up Dick MacCoon and have him bolt on a set of
turbo'd 720's (or Orendas :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Randy,
At the airport one day, I spoke with a pilot that said that his best
anti-ice system was his turbos. He had flown for years in the Midwest
without and with deice and turbos. He felt that his best move when in ice
was to go up and get out of it. He did not use his deice very much.
Dick will have the new turbo system up and flying very soon. They did a
trial fit the other day on one side and are now making the second set for
the other.
It will make a big difference in your 500B.
Here in the Midwest they call it the Ice Palace.
Central Air has every one of their 500B's with the TKS weeping wing system.
They can tell some stories that will curl your hair. It works well here.
But they do not fly over the Sierra's.
I lived in Incline for 4 years. There are times in the Sierra when it is
best to not go. When it is bad, the birds do not fly. The pass closes and
nothing moves.
Accept it, sit by the fire and say, "Look at the pretty snow" and go
tomorrow.
It does not happen too often, but I saw one weekend when we got 7' of snow
and nothing went anywhere for a week, air or ground. Then it was beautiful
after it had blown out. Keep the cabin stocked with food, wood, and
candles. :)
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:10 AM
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: 500B mods
Randy Sharp wrote:
> If I can't find anything that matches my 500B (nothing has yet) then I
> might install the Turbos and Deice and keep the 500B.
Randy,
Add a set of MRRPM rayjays (or a 350hp Merlyn Conversion), TKS
"weeping-wing" de-ice, and a set of fuzzy dice and keep the 500B!
If you could get a nice turbine, that would be wonderful, but I'd
think that even with the Merlyn mods that you'd still end up a
lot cheaper (including operation) with the "B"....
You could even call up Dick MacCoon and have him bolt on a set of
turbo'd 720's (or Orendas :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Mulligan <mulligan(at)xmission.com> |
Citizens of Afghanistan are reportedly looking forward with great
anticipation to reports of an international air show to be held in the
skies over their nation.
An unnamed official informed us that "Now the rest of the world will
look upon our beloved city with great honor just as they do Farnborough,
England and Paris, France", referring to the sites of two other famous
international air shows.
The exact date and time of the upcoming Kabul International Airshow has
not yet been announced. It is believed that event organizers feel that
such an announcement would detract from the fun of the celebration by
"spoiling the surprise".
Unlike most air shows the Kabul Airshow will feature almost no static
ground displays but will have an unusually high number of aerial
demonstrations and fly-bys. "We are most pleased by this feature of our
air show. Instead of a lot of different kinds of airplanes just sitting
around on the tarmac, the aircraft attending our show will actually be
up in the air demonstrating what they do best!" we were told.
Participation will probably be heavyest by aircraft of the United
States Air Force and Marine Corps. including appearances by F-15's,
F-16's, A-10's, B-52's and Apache helicopters. It is rumored that opening
ceremonies will feature a tomahawk-cruise fireworks display. A few
B-2's, and F-117A's may also help out in some unseen capacity.
Several other countries have expressed an interest in sending
representatives. These include all nineteen nations in the NATO
alliance as well as Australia. The excitement generated for this gala event
has even prompted the Israeli Air Force to apply for participation.
Of course, no one is more excited than the Afghan people themselves.
Great numbers of them are in the streets of Kabul looking constantly
heavenward in gratitude for the historic event which will soon take place
in their skies. It has been observed that some are so concerned about
missing the show that even as they bow to the East they keep snatching
worried glances towards the West. Thousands, in fact, have been seen
leaving the city and fleeing to the mountains carrying food and blankets -
obviously anxious to get a good vantage point for the air show, and to
make a picnic of it.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one."
-- Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
tylorh(at)sound.net said:
>Randy,
>At the airport one day, I spoke with a pilot that said that his best
>anti-ice system was his turbos. He had flown for years in the Midwest
>without and with deice and turbos. He felt that his best move when in ice
>was to go up and get out of it. He did not use his deice very much.
>Dick will have the new turbo system up and flying very soon. They did a
>trial fit the other day on one side and are now making the second set for
>the other.
>It will make a big difference in your 500B.
Yes, this has been a very viable option I have been looking at.
Not to mention the Single Engine Climb performance advantages.
>Here in the Midwest they call it the Ice Palace.
>Central Air has every one of their 500B's with the TKS weeping wing system.
>They can tell some stories that will curl your hair. It works well here.
>But they do not fly over the Sierra's.
I have talked with them on the STC for the TKS system.
My student bought a system for his Trinidad and loves it other than the
mess it makes.
(He flies every weekend to Truckee)
During the past few years he's only had to turn around once.
(Departures are a little more restrictive, but I would rather be stuck up
there than not being able to get in)
>I lived in Incline for 4 years. There are times in the Sierra when it is
>best to not go. When it is bad, the birds do not fly. The pass closes and
nothing moves.
Yes I know this scenario very well, once had a report from a B737
reporting Severe/Moderate Rime ICE from 14K to 18K, as you might have
guessed, I elected to stay on the ground.
(Probably would have even if flying a Turbo Commander).
>Accept it, sit by the fire and say, "Look at the pretty snow" and go
>tomorrow.It does not happen too often, but I saw one weekend when we got 7'
of snow
>and nothing went anywhere for a week, air or ground. Then it was beautiful
>after it had blown out. Keep the cabin stocked with food, wood, and
>candles. :)>Tylor Hall
I agree.
The main reason for the upgrade is to go on those easy flights that I
can't even file for now.
(My wife doesn't like the sound of ice crystals striking the windshield
when she knows I don't have deice) I always have an out but most of the
time I just can't file due to the unpredictable icing level in and around
the basin with the equipment I have.
I've been flying to Tahoe since 1974 and most of the time the worst WX is
from 10K to 18K.
Descending down thru it is not too bad as long as you can keep the front
windshield clear.
The ceilings on the GPS approach are quite good (900Ft and 3 miles with a
visual of 2.6 to the runway, but the LOC is (1100 & 5 with 4.5 miles out
and requires a long visual with a sharp turnout for the missed).
If the window is iced over you'll never see the runway that far out and
you'll have to execute the missed which requires a nasty holding pattern
over the lake.
For IFR Departures, climbing out over the lake is not especially fun,
especially if you have to enter the holding pattern to gain altitude
before proceeding on course. I've done it without icing conditions and I
can usually get to altitude for on course heading by one turn but that
hasn't been done while taking on ice.
But either way your right without the right airplane I'll be sitting on
the ground.
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WilliamPeper(at)cs.com <WilliamPeper(at)cs.com> |
| Subject: | New York state ice this last weekend |
Howdy, folks
I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in Vermont
just this last weekend. My fake boots (painted on. . . really look cool) got
no further than removing the fake ice.
At 9,000 MSL we were accumulating a mild amount of rime, so I requested
lower. Got 7,000 feet and flew into a rain shower . . . that is, a freezing
rain shower (was about -2 C). Clear ice began accumulating rapidly, and I
wasted no time in descending to 5,000 MSL, where it was +3 C and we shed the
ice rapidly.
I used to own a 58TC known-icing Baron when I lived on the Left Coast, and my
advice is to have BOTH deicing and turbos, if you plan to fly the cold, wet
clouds a lot. In reality, I only really needed that equipment about five
times in three years, but I did need it, and I'm sittin' here alive and well
to tell you about it!
For those of you for whom your Commander is your first twin or good
instrument airplane, remember that icing will quickly emasculate an
otherwise outstanding airplane, from a performance standpoint. I couldn't
have stayed in the clear ice in my Shrike for another ten minutes without
extreme adverse flight characteristics (fallin' out of the sky!).
Be careful, be safe . . . let's all get to be OLD pilots.
Bill Peper
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New York state ice this last weekend |
For some reason, even with my deiced & turbocharged 500-B, I'm still reluctant
to get anywhere close to icing conditions!!! In 2 years, I've flown through one
line that dosed me with some very mild rime at about 11,000 ft. It proved that
the boots function as designed, and that's good enough for me!
I tend to keep my hot plate & deice boots filed under "emergency equipment!!"
/John
PS: I still love hearing the stories from you guys & gals who are pros, and who
are used to flying through ice all the time. It at least gives me the confidence
that an Aero Commander is quality equipment!
----- Original Message -----
From: WilliamPeper(at)cs.com
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 3:32 PM
Subject: New York state ice this last weekend
Howdy, folks
I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in Vermont just
this last weekend. My fake boots (painted on. . . really look cool) got no
further than removing the fake ice.
At 9,000 MSL we were accumulating a mild amount of rime, so I requested lower.
Got 7,000 feet and flew into a rain shower . . . that is, a freezing rain shower
(was about -2 C). Clear ice began accumulating rapidly, and I wasted no
time in descending to 5,000 MSL, where it was +3 C and we shed the ice rapidly.
I used to own a 58TC known-icing Baron when I lived on the Left Coast, and my
advice is to have BOTH deicing and turbos, if you plan to fly the cold, wet clouds
a lot. In reality, I only really needed that equipment about five times
in three years, but I did need it, and I'm sittin' here alive and well to tell
you about it!
For those of you for whom your Commander is your first twin or good instrument
airplane, remember that icing will quickly emasculate an otherwise outstanding
airplane, from a performance standpoint. I couldn't have stayed in the clear
ice in my Shrike for another ten minutes without extreme adverse flight characteristics
(fallin' out of the sky!).
Be careful, be safe . . . let's all get to be OLD pilots.
Bill Peper
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New York state ice this last weekend |
WilliamPeper(at)cs.com said:
>Howdy, folks
>I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in Vermont
>just this last weekend. My fake boots (painted on. . . really look cool)
>got
>no further than removing the fake ice.
>At 9,000 MSL we were accumulating a mild amount of rime, so I requested
>lower. Got 7,000 feet and flew into a rain shower . . . that is, a freezing
>rain shower (was about -2 C). Clear ice began accumulating rapidly, and I
>wasted no time in descending to 5,000 MSL, where it was +3 C and we shed the
>ice rapidly.
>I used to own a 58TC known-icing Baron when I lived on the Left Coast, and
>my
>advice is to have BOTH deicing and turbos, if you plan to fly the cold, wet
>clouds a lot. In reality, I only really needed that equipment about five
>times in three years, but I did need it, and I'm sittin' here alive and well
>to tell you about it!
>For those of you for whom your Commander is your first twin or good
>instrument airplane, remember that icing will quickly emasculate an
>otherwise outstanding airplane, from a performance standpoint. I couldn't
>have stayed in the clear ice in my Shrike for another ten minutes without
>extreme adverse flight characteristics (fallin' out of the sky!).
>Be careful, be safe . . . let's all get to be OLD pilots.
>Bill Peper
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
>From: "Price, Sharon (S.T.)" <sprice1(at)ford.com>
>To: "'Allen_Reed2(at)hotmail.com'"
>Subject: FW: AWESOME
>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:35:18 -0400
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Baldwin, Roxanne (R.M.)
>Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:55 PM
>To: 'trunksrocks89(at)aol.com'; 'beachbunny(at)peoplesoft.com'; White, Becky
>(B.C.); Ervin, Deborah (D.G.); Carter, Judy (J.); Price, Sharon (S.T.);
>Greer, Michelle (M.L.); Cathey, Jean (J.F.); Cathey, Stephanie (S.A.);
>Baggett, Georgia (G.L.)
>Subject: FW: AWESOME
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Roxanne Baldwin-NRC Accountant
>Primus C.A.T.S
>Phone: 615-315-6671
>Fax: 615-315-7780
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hull, Diana (D.)
>Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:48 PM
>To: Baldwin, Roxanne (R.M.); Keeter, Judy (J.D.); Moon, Elaine (E.M.);
>Godbolt, Pamela (P.J.); Hardcastle, Denise (D.C.); Overbey, Stacey (S.A.);
>Ford, Cheryl (C.A.); 'dajh(at)peoplepc.com'; Klebs, Colleen (C.C.);
>'iladydy(at)aol.com'
>Subject: FW: AWESOME
>
>
>Diana Hull
>Primus C.A.T.S.
>(615)315-7484
>DBROCK5(at)FORD.COM
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mattox, Brenda J NWO [mailto:Brenda.J.Mattox(at)nwo02.usace.army.mil]
>Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 10:10 AM
>To: 'Connie'; 'Diana'; 'T Bowers'; 'Mickey'; 'Irene'
>Subject: AWESOME
>
>
> AWESOME
>
>
>Pictures are from a beach in Maryland.
>Isn't the artwork awesome? Be sure to open up your screen all the way
>The man creates new ones each day, as the ocean washes away his work every
>day.
>
>
>Being happy doesn't mean everything's perfect.
>It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | off topic personal note |
Fellow Commander nuts...
I feel rather embarassed to even make this post, but please
consider reading it as payment to me for operating this list :-)
The last six months have been pretty rough for me and my little
business. Over half of my customers (mainly energy companies,
communications, and hi-tech concerns) have gone away (forever)
and most who are still around have stuck their heads in the sand
and are not pursuing anything that involves spending money.
I find myself with a building full of outstanding engineers,
developers, and techs with not nearly enough to keep them busy.
If any of YOU fine folks have any needs in the following areas
(or know of someone who does), I would be sincerely grateful for
any opportunities.
- any electrical engineering, microprocessor designs, controls,
sensors, etc
- software development
- communication systems
- field installation work (metering, solar, radio, etc)
- assembly/fabrication
- mechanical design
- custom metal and plastic work
- ditch digging :-)
I run one of the best R&D facilities around and we can do just
about anything.
Sorry to take up space with a non-Commander related post, but
I REALLY need to get some projects through the door! I've built
up a staff of some of the best, brightest, and most trustworthy
individuals, and I can't bear the thought of loosing any of them.
Thanks,
Chris Schuermann
C2 Technologies Inc.
Tulsa, OK
(918) 582-3635
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: off topic personal note |
If I had the cash, which I do not at this point, due to divorce, I would
putyour guys to work on a replacement for the Jani-Bomb heaters. have
been keeping my idea close to the vest because I really wanted to pursue it
myself,and possibly reap the financial rewards. Here is my idea.
A lot of Geared planes use hydraulics. The hydraulic pumps are gear driven,
and use a specified amount of horsepower even though the gear and flaps are
not being operated. It is my understanding that even when the gear and flap
are being manipulated, the horspower constraints on the enigines does not
change significantly.
I would propose using a hydraulic powered motor running a DC generator that
powered a ceramic heater. I do understnad the ahtere will be a loss of
energy during the conversion from Horsepower to hudraulic power, to
electircal power, to the Ceramic heating elements. The Cermaic heating
elements can be made very hot, and with proper insulation, the exisiting
ductwork could be used, so that the Janitrol could be totally removed, and
this proposed device installed.
This could possibly be feasable on All AC560, Queen Air, Twin Bonanza,
Cessna 421, 310, and many other aircraft. I calculated the cost of
manufature of the device to be roughly $500.00 - $650.00 in materials and
labor to assemble the complete unit.
Considering that a new Janitrol might cost upwards of $5,000.00 or more, and
the annual inspection of the units can cost $1,000.00 to $3,000.00, the
pricing of $4,500.00 for the unit seemed appropriate. There would also be
the savings of that .5 gal per hour + burn rate the janitrol has in savings
to the operator.
Just an idea I have been toying with. Naturally I was planning on using my
AC560 for the tests.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:32 PM
Subject: off topic personal note
> Fellow Commander nuts...
>
> I feel rather embarassed to even make this post, but please
> consider reading it as payment to me for operating this list :-)
>
>
> The last six months have been pretty rough for me and my little
> business. Over half of my customers (mainly energy companies,
> communications, and hi-tech concerns) have gone away (forever)
> and most who are still around have stuck their heads in the sand
> and are not pursuing anything that involves spending money.
> I find myself with a building full of outstanding engineers,
> developers, and techs with not nearly enough to keep them busy.
> If any of YOU fine folks have any needs in the following areas
> (or know of someone who does), I would be sincerely grateful for
> any opportunities.
> - any electrical engineering, microprocessor designs, controls,
> sensors, etc
> - software development
> - communication systems
> - field installation work (metering, solar, radio, etc)
> - assembly/fabrication
> - mechanical design
> - custom metal and plastic work
> - ditch digging :-)
>
> I run one of the best R&D facilities around and we can do just
> about anything.
>
> Sorry to take up space with a non-Commander related post, but
> I REALLY need to get some projects through the door! I've built
> up a staff of some of the best, brightest, and most trustworthy
> individuals, and I can't bear the thought of loosing any of them.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris Schuermann
> C2 Technologies Inc.
> Tulsa, OK
> (918) 582-3635
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Winter stories |
WilliamPeper(at)cs.com said:
>Howdy, folks
>I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in Vermont
>just this last weekend.....
It's good to hear some of these real world flight experiences from other
Commander owners in the wx.
This is actually a good time to bring up our winter accounts since we are
quickly approaching the season. (some of you are already there) Winter
flying stories might be viewed differently by some pilots especially in
other parts of the country but we can all learn from these experiences
especially on how the pilot reacts to any given situation/condition they
find themselves in.
Fortunately I have one to tell our Cmdr owners and with any luck it will
keep some of you out of the conditions I have experienced.
(I really do hate to do inflight icing tests in the Cmdr)
Here goes:
A couple of years ago in the 500B late one night in Dec over the Midwest
I filed for an IFR flight plan from RIW to DTL (Riverton WY to Detroit
Lakes MN, KFAR was alternate).
Forecasts and present wx conditions were clear all the way into Fargo ND
"Hector Intl". (closest reporting point to our final destination)
100 miles west of intended airport (DTL) and 30 minutes from FAR we
noticed a cloud deck starting to form below us at around 5500ft.
No issues at our cruising alt of 10K, OAT of -35C.
We received an update from Flight Watch and they were beginning to report
2500/7 at FAR and tops to 5K with no associated front. This was a thin
deck of only 2500 ft. A very unusual obscuration had formed in the local
area and was slowly spreading to a wider region, which was unpredicted by
the wx service. Since DTL is another 50 miles away and they were
reporting lower ceilings to the east we decided not to continue on and
spend the night at Fargo. (DTL had only a VOR approach and the area is
quite dark with very few city lights.)
During the approach into FAR our descent profile was delayed (restricted)
in the clouds for a NW jet landing in sequence. We immediately started
to pick up MOD RIME Ice at 3200ft in less than 30 seconds. 1-2 inches
had formed on the inboard leading edge of the wing and teh OAT was now
rising to -15 to -20 C. (You would think being this cold you would
pick-up very little ice).
Since the approach takes you over a warm city at night the convective air
rising upward turned very cold air into warm RIME ice, (relatively
speaking). Well anyway we requested an immediate climb back up to around
4K where we did not experience the build up of ice.
Luckily we did have an out and so we requested the next approach be an
unabated descent to ILS minimums which was well below the current
ceilings (now at 2000 agl which was lowering with time). We broke out at
2000 agl to see the approach landing lights for a very smooth landing on
ICE and light snow.
For the longest 2-3 minutes of time, the ice accumulation on the
Commander was handled quite well, the heater did shut done due to the air
intact being iced over and the props sure loved to shed all of that ice
right up against the side of the fuselage. The GNS-430s worked well in
the now very cold cabin with no heat and everything did function as usual
including A/S instruments etc. I decided to keep the A/S up on final to
ensure the stall speed hadn't been modified or increased by ice forming
on the wings and we didn't use any flaps fearing asymmetrical issues upon
lowering them.
That was one long night for a supposedly clear night on an IFR flight
plan which was forecasted to be VFR. (can you image the poor sole who was
only VFR rated getting into these conditions?)
The antennas had a large blob of ice covering them.
My initial fear was the LOC/GS coupled whisker antennax would break off.
(another reason to go with the blade type)
Thank goodness they didn't break off but I was prepared to do a GPS
approach having my 3 low profile GPS antennas intact if needed.
After we landed the lineman said "gee" it looks like you picked up some
ice. (dah)
He said we had at least another 30 minutes to go before we had a major
problem.
(His experiences from other Cmdrs arriving to this airport during the
winter).
Lessons learned.
We didn't know what the rest of the general area was doing since this was
a freak wx pattern and it developed quickly, with very little wx reports
being so late in the evening.
With that in mind we decided to do an approach into a large metropolitan
airport rather than some small airport with very little wx facilities.
(there are not very many serviceable airports in this area)
1. Be prepared for any conditions that could change during the flight
profile.
(at least try to plan for most contingencies "think worst case").
We did land at the alternate but what happens if the alternate is not
available, do you have another alternate planned?
Even though the alternate met the ceiling/vis requirements during initial
filing (clear during filing and forecast) it did not meet the equipment
requirements of a non deiced airplane during the approach. (semantics I
know, but correct)
In this case it was either get down and land or fly 100 miles outside the
area and possibly run into the same conditions elsewhere with a less
desirable airport.
2. Update destination wx as frequently as possible even if the forecast
and surrounding airports are reporting clear. Start the divert process
early on in order for your options to be plentiful.
3. Check all of your equipment before flight even if you don't intend on
using them.
Unfortunately not having deice on the wings doesn't help but I did check
the Pitot heat and other vital equipment before a flight as I ALWAYS do.
4. Know your equipment and practice using them as much as possible.
(note failed history patterns)
ie will it fail under certain conditions, will outside forces disable it
quickly and rapidly,
how can the pilot minimize the effects of a failed unit on the rest of
the equipment, failed heater, etc?
These are just a few and I'm sure we can add to this list.
Hope I didn't bore you in the process but winter flying always seems to
lend itself to a very quick learning curve if not properly prepared.
I also currently fly USAF equipment that is approved into known Moderate
Icing conditions but I'm still concerned when I have to use it. I have
HAD deice equipment fail in flight and it does limit and change your
escape routes most readily.
Those are more stories for later on....
Having a crew of 5 in a military aircraft can help and pool resources
quickly.
Being a single pilot when conditions go to less than desirable will
effect your reaction time. I was lucky to have a copilot onboard to help
with wx calls chart preparation etc during the ordeal. I always like to
take a spare pilot when able, it helps share the fun or terror. (just
kidding)
I'm sure WC Gordon can enlighten us with some good stories as a crew
member and/or single pilot?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Major Randy "Laser" Sharp ANG/USAF, MEII-A/H
The ultimate vertical Flight experience.
HH-60G...PaveHawk "The Jolly Green Giants"
129TH RQS "RESCUE SERVICE"; Fly Safe!
AC-500B Twin Commander "N6367U" my baby C130
"-within the hearts of all who fly, lives
the child who once stood at the gate to their future-"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WilliamPeper(at)cs.com said:
>Howdy, folks
>I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in Vermont
>just this last weekend. My fake boots (painted on. . . really look cool)
>got
>no further than removing the fake ice.
>At 9,000 MSL we were accumulating a mild amount of rime, so I requested
>lower. Got 7,000 feet and flew into a rain shower . . . that is, a freezing
>rain shower (was about -2 C). Clear ice began accumulating rapidly, and I
>wasted no time in descending to 5,000 MSL, where it was +3 C and we shed the
>ice rapidly.
>I used to own a 58TC known-icing Baron when I lived on the Left Coast, and
>my
>advice is to have BOTH deicing and turbos, if you plan to fly the cold, wet
>clouds a lot. In reality, I only really needed that equipment about five
>times in three years, but I did need it, and I'm sittin' here alive and well
>to tell you about it!
>For those of you for whom your Commander is your first twin or good
>instrument airplane, remember that icing will quickly emasculate an
>otherwise outstanding airplane, from a performance standpoint. I couldn't
>have stayed in the clear ice in my Shrike for another ten minutes without
>extreme adverse flight characteristics (fallin' out of the sky!).
>Be careful, be safe . . . let's all get to be OLD pilots.
>Bill Peper
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Best of the Web Today - October 1, 2001 |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Cool idea for heat |
In a message dated 10/01/01 19:22:04 Pacific Daylight Time,
woodlema(at)intrex.net writes:
> I would propose using a hydraulic powered motor running a DC generator that
> powered a ceramic heater.
What a cool idea for heat!
Kind of like how the -F(P) models used hydraulically powered cabin
superchargers. The motive force is there, why not harness it?
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | COMMANDERS, DUKES AND ICE |
HI KIDS.
Great subject, Ice!! Here is my comment
I had just received my inst ticket and was commuting to work (crop
dusting in se Washington State, living in SW Idaho) in my 560A (no-deice) I
couldn't wait to use my rating!!
It was time to go home for the weekend and FINALLY, the weather was
kinda lousy. I filed and got a void time clearance from the 1600 foot long
ag strip and blasted off. I was in the clouds a few minutes after TO, and
was having a ball! Remember this is before GPS or even Loran (remember
position reports)? Anyway, I climbed to 10K, the MEA and cruised along.
After about 45 minutes I noticed that I was adding a lot of nose up trim. I
looked outside (finally was able to tear my eyes off the panel) and went into
shock!!
There was about 1.5 inches of ice on the bottom LE of the wings.
About that time a couple of other things occurred. The heater quit and so
did the airspeed indicator. I fixed the airspeed with the flip of a switch,
the heater was out for good. I really didn't know what to do. Ice was now
slinging off the props making a terrible racket and the airplane was just
above stall. I called center and asked for higher. They said it was OK to
climb but didn't have me on radar and asked for a position report! I really
didn't have a clue exactly where I was so I just said 'stand by." I then
realized that I wasn't going to climb (duh), so I asked for lower. Center
said I could do whatever I wanted but suggested that They could not guarantee
terrain clearance!
I just prayed, I didn't know what else to do. In just a few seconds,
I flew out the side of the clouds and into a large hole. Man, was I glad to
see something besides white. I immediately knew where I was (right over old
hW 95), canceled IFR and dove for the road. I was able to complete the
flight VFR and did not fly IFR again for nearly 10 years, until I bought the
Duke, Known Icing.
I flew the duke for 5 years and 400 hrs and only had to use the boots
one time. This was because, as has been stated, Higher is better. However,
I would not consider flying in the ice without both, Boots and Turbos
(supercharging) I picked up a TON of ice on climbout from Boeing field on
Christmas holiday. The airplane was climbing only 100 fpm @ 12K . We
finished the trip to Idaho and landed with a bunch of ice still firmly stuck
to the non deiced areas. It took my son and I 10 minutes to bust it off with
our fists before we put it in the hangar.
Fly in the ice, better have both!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Winter stories |
I have flown for 30 years near the equator and have never, ever experienced
ice. I have landed on back roads, no roads, all roads. In the bush out of
the bush. Operated my 500 on a hill side which worked well as a 600' runway
because of the incline and 'take-off-down and land-up' procedures, it
couldn't be sweeter. That's when you learn to land with full power to avoid
being stuck before reaching the plato. Well, it takes all kinds.
Why am I scared when I think about encountering ice? I will pack real boots
(not painted ones), turbos, and hopefully good sense when the time comes. I
am sucking up these stories like a spunge. Perhaps it will one day bring me
some comfort.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Sharp" <sharp.r(at)apple.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Winter stories
> WilliamPeper(at)cs.com said:
> >Howdy, folks
> >I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in
Vermont
> >just this last weekend.....
>
> It's good to hear some of these real world flight experiences from other
> Commander owners in the wx.
>
> This is actually a good time to bring up our winter accounts since we are
> quickly approaching the season. (some of you are already there) Winter
> flying stories might be viewed differently by some pilots especially in
> other parts of the country but we can all learn from these experiences
> especially on how the pilot reacts to any given situation/condition they
> find themselves in.
>
> Fortunately I have one to tell our Cmdr owners and with any luck it will
> keep some of you out of the conditions I have experienced.
> (I really do hate to do inflight icing tests in the Cmdr)
>
> Here goes:
> A couple of years ago in the 500B late one night in Dec over the Midwest
> I filed for an IFR flight plan from RIW to DTL (Riverton WY to Detroit
> Lakes MN, KFAR was alternate).
> Forecasts and present wx conditions were clear all the way into Fargo ND
> "Hector Intl". (closest reporting point to our final destination)
>
> 100 miles west of intended airport (DTL) and 30 minutes from FAR we
> noticed a cloud deck starting to form below us at around 5500ft.
>
> No issues at our cruising alt of 10K, OAT of -35C.
> We received an update from Flight Watch and they were beginning to report
> 2500/7 at FAR and tops to 5K with no associated front. This was a thin
> deck of only 2500 ft. A very unusual obscuration had formed in the local
> area and was slowly spreading to a wider region, which was unpredicted by
> the wx service. Since DTL is another 50 miles away and they were
> reporting lower ceilings to the east we decided not to continue on and
> spend the night at Fargo. (DTL had only a VOR approach and the area is
> quite dark with very few city lights.)
>
> During the approach into FAR our descent profile was delayed (restricted)
> in the clouds for a NW jet landing in sequence. We immediately started
> to pick up MOD RIME Ice at 3200ft in less than 30 seconds. 1-2 inches
> had formed on the inboard leading edge of the wing and teh OAT was now
> rising to -15 to -20 C. (You would think being this cold you would
> pick-up very little ice).
>
> Since the approach takes you over a warm city at night the convective air
> rising upward turned very cold air into warm RIME ice, (relatively
> speaking). Well anyway we requested an immediate climb back up to around
> 4K where we did not experience the build up of ice.
> Luckily we did have an out and so we requested the next approach be an
> unabated descent to ILS minimums which was well below the current
> ceilings (now at 2000 agl which was lowering with time). We broke out at
> 2000 agl to see the approach landing lights for a very smooth landing on
> ICE and light snow.
>
> For the longest 2-3 minutes of time, the ice accumulation on the
> Commander was handled quite well, the heater did shut done due to the air
> intact being iced over and the props sure loved to shed all of that ice
> right up against the side of the fuselage. The GNS-430s worked well in
> the now very cold cabin with no heat and everything did function as usual
> including A/S instruments etc. I decided to keep the A/S up on final to
> ensure the stall speed hadn't been modified or increased by ice forming
> on the wings and we didn't use any flaps fearing asymmetrical issues upon
> lowering them.
>
> That was one long night for a supposedly clear night on an IFR flight
> plan which was forecasted to be VFR. (can you image the poor sole who was
> only VFR rated getting into these conditions?)
>
> The antennas had a large blob of ice covering them.
> My initial fear was the LOC/GS coupled whisker antennax would break off.
> (another reason to go with the blade type)
> Thank goodness they didn't break off but I was prepared to do a GPS
> approach having my 3 low profile GPS antennas intact if needed.
>
> After we landed the lineman said "gee" it looks like you picked up some
> ice. (dah)
> He said we had at least another 30 minutes to go before we had a major
> problem.
> (His experiences from other Cmdrs arriving to this airport during the
> winter).
>
> Lessons learned.
> We didn't know what the rest of the general area was doing since this was
> a freak wx pattern and it developed quickly, with very little wx reports
> being so late in the evening.
> With that in mind we decided to do an approach into a large metropolitan
> airport rather than some small airport with very little wx facilities.
> (there are not very many serviceable airports in this area)
>
> 1. Be prepared for any conditions that could change during the flight
> profile.
> (at least try to plan for most contingencies "think worst case").
> We did land at the alternate but what happens if the alternate is not
> available, do you have another alternate planned?
> Even though the alternate met the ceiling/vis requirements during initial
> filing (clear during filing and forecast) it did not meet the equipment
> requirements of a non deiced airplane during the approach. (semantics I
> know, but correct)
> In this case it was either get down and land or fly 100 miles outside the
> area and possibly run into the same conditions elsewhere with a less
> desirable airport.
>
> 2. Update destination wx as frequently as possible even if the forecast
> and surrounding airports are reporting clear. Start the divert process
> early on in order for your options to be plentiful.
>
> 3. Check all of your equipment before flight even if you don't intend on
> using them.
> Unfortunately not having deice on the wings doesn't help but I did check
> the Pitot heat and other vital equipment before a flight as I ALWAYS do.
>
> 4. Know your equipment and practice using them as much as possible.
> (note failed history patterns)
> ie will it fail under certain conditions, will outside forces disable it
> quickly and rapidly,
> how can the pilot minimize the effects of a failed unit on the rest of
> the equipment, failed heater, etc?
>
> These are just a few and I'm sure we can add to this list.
>
> Hope I didn't bore you in the process but winter flying always seems to
> lend itself to a very quick learning curve if not properly prepared.
>
> I also currently fly USAF equipment that is approved into known Moderate
> Icing conditions but I'm still concerned when I have to use it. I have
> HAD deice equipment fail in flight and it does limit and change your
> escape routes most readily.
> Those are more stories for later on....
>
> Having a crew of 5 in a military aircraft can help and pool resources
> quickly.
>
> Being a single pilot when conditions go to less than desirable will
> effect your reaction time. I was lucky to have a copilot onboard to help
> with wx calls chart preparation etc during the ordeal. I always like to
> take a spare pilot when able, it helps share the fun or terror. (just
> kidding)
>
> I'm sure WC Gordon can enlighten us with some good stories as a crew
> member and/or single pilot?
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Major Randy "Laser" Sharp ANG/USAF, MEII-A/H
> The ultimate vertical Flight experience.
> HH-60G...PaveHawk "The Jolly Green Giants"
> 129TH RQS "RESCUE SERVICE"; Fly Safe!
> AC-500B Twin Commander "N6367U" my baby C130
>
> "-within the hearts of all who fly, lives
> the child who once stood at the gate to their future-"
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> WilliamPeper(at)cs.com said:
> >Howdy, folks
> >I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in
Vermont
> >just this last weekend. My fake boots (painted on. . . really look cool)
> >got
> >no further than removing the fake ice.
> >At 9,000 MSL we were accumulating a mild amount of rime, so I requested
> >lower. Got 7,000 feet and flew into a rain shower . . . that is, a
freezing
> >rain shower (was about -2 C). Clear ice began accumulating rapidly, and
I
> >wasted no time in descending to 5,000 MSL, where it was +3 C and we shed
the
> >ice rapidly.
> >I used to own a 58TC known-icing Baron when I lived on the Left Coast,
and
> >my
> >advice is to have BOTH deicing and turbos, if you plan to fly the cold,
wet
> >clouds a lot. In reality, I only really needed that equipment about five
> >times in three years, but I did need it, and I'm sittin' here alive and
well
> >to tell you about it!
> >For those of you for whom your Commander is your first twin or good
> >instrument airplane, remember that icing will quickly emasculate an
> >otherwise outstanding airplane, from a performance standpoint. I
couldn't
> >have stayed in the clear ice in my Shrike for another ten minutes without
> >extreme adverse flight characteristics (fallin' out of the sky!).
> >Be careful, be safe . . . let's all get to be OLD pilots.
> >Bill Peper
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: off topic personal note |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> I need to know real quick
> what you can bring to the table
Nico,
First - thanks for the reply!
Can you share what specific skills you are looking for?
I would be happy to call and discuss your needs further. If
an NDA is required first, just shoot it over.
Thanks,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | H. James McConnell <skipper10(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: off topic personal note |
The heater in our 560 does not work and is not repairable. We are
investigating solutions. Most all of our flights are Mercy Flights and we
need heat. We are open to any ideas. As a charity, we don't have lots of
money and the cash we have we need to buy fuel so we can continue to fly the
ones who need us. As a non profit 501(c)(3) organization, we can give tax
exemption letters. If anyone has an unused heater that they would like to
convert into a healthy tax write-off, please contact me. Jim McConnell,
President, Pilots for Christ, International
----- Original Message -----
From: "Intrex" <woodlema(at)intrex.net>
To: "Chris Schuermann" ;
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: off topic personal note
> If I had the cash, which I do not at this point, due to divorce, I would
> putyour guys to work on a replacement for the Jani-Bomb heaters. have
> been keeping my idea close to the vest because I really wanted to pursue
it
> myself,and possibly reap the financial rewards. Here is my idea.
>
> A lot of Geared planes use hydraulics. The hydraulic pumps are gear
driven,
> and use a specified amount of horsepower even though the gear and flaps
are
> not being operated. It is my understanding that even when the gear and
flap
> are being manipulated, the horspower constraints on the enigines does not
> change significantly.
>
> I would propose using a hydraulic powered motor running a DC generator
that
> powered a ceramic heater. I do understnad the ahtere will be a loss of
> energy during the conversion from Horsepower to hudraulic power, to
> electircal power, to the Ceramic heating elements. The Cermaic heating
> elements can be made very hot, and with proper insulation, the exisiting
> ductwork could be used, so that the Janitrol could be totally removed, and
> this proposed device installed.
>
> This could possibly be feasable on All AC560, Queen Air, Twin Bonanza,
> Cessna 421, 310, and many other aircraft. I calculated the cost of
> manufature of the device to be roughly $500.00 - $650.00 in materials and
> labor to assemble the complete unit.
>
> Considering that a new Janitrol might cost upwards of $5,000.00 or more,
and
> the annual inspection of the units can cost $1,000.00 to $3,000.00, the
> pricing of $4,500.00 for the unit seemed appropriate. There would also be
> the savings of that .5 gal per hour + burn rate the janitrol has in
savings
> to the operator.
>
> Just an idea I have been toying with. Naturally I was planning on using
my
> AC560 for the tests.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:32 PM
> Subject: off topic personal note
>
>
> > Fellow Commander nuts...
> >
> > I feel rather embarassed to even make this post, but please
> > consider reading it as payment to me for operating this list :-)
> >
> >
> > The last six months have been pretty rough for me and my little
> > business. Over half of my customers (mainly energy companies,
> > communications, and hi-tech concerns) have gone away (forever)
> > and most who are still around have stuck their heads in the sand
> > and are not pursuing anything that involves spending money.
> > I find myself with a building full of outstanding engineers,
> > developers, and techs with not nearly enough to keep them busy.
> > If any of YOU fine folks have any needs in the following areas
> > (or know of someone who does), I would be sincerely grateful for
> > any opportunities.
> > - any electrical engineering, microprocessor designs, controls,
> > sensors, etc
> > - software development
> > - communication systems
> > - field installation work (metering, solar, radio, etc)
> > - assembly/fabrication
> > - mechanical design
> > - custom metal and plastic work
> > - ditch digging :-)
> >
> > I run one of the best R&D facilities around and we can do just
> > about anything.
> >
> > Sorry to take up space with a non-Commander related post, but
> > I REALLY need to get some projects through the door! I've built
> > up a staff of some of the best, brightest, and most trustworthy
> > individuals, and I can't bear the thought of loosing any of them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Schuermann
> > C2 Technologies Inc.
> > Tulsa, OK
> > (918) 582-3635
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New York state ice this last weekend |
In a message dated 10/1/2001 4:19:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
john(at)vormbaum.com writes:
>
> /John
>
> PS: I still love hearing the stories from you guys & gals who are pros, and
> who are used to flying through ice all the time. It at least gives me the
> confidence that an Aero Commander is quality equipment!
>
> >> ----- Original
>>
>
DITTO,
JIM FURLONG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: off topic personal note |
In a message dated 10/1/2001 6:35:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
>
>
> The last six months have been pretty rough for me and my little
> business. Over half of my customers (mainly energy companies,
> communications, and hi-tech concerns) have gone away (forever)
> and most who are still around have stuck their heads in the sand
>
SAME HERE CHRIS -- BAD TIME TO BE BUYING A COMMANDER FOR ME - ESPECIALLY WHEN
I HAVE TO PUT OVER $50K INTO IT AFTER IT WAS DELIVERED.
THE DESIGN GUYS YOU HAVE - HAVE THEM EMAIL THEIR RESUMES TO ME. I DON'T WORK
AT THAT LEVEL BUT I MAY KNOW PEOPLE WHO CAN HELP. YOU MAY REMEMBER I'M A
HEADHUNTER.
JIM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long) |
G'Day All,
(I start off this way because our friends in Oz -- and Nico -- will be glad
to fly where they fly - or flown)
What I'm going to tell you about flight in icing conditions will make the pee
run cold in you.
Before I get into that, I'm all for as much de-ice and anti-ice equipment as
you can equip yourself with. If that includes turbochargers, well, why not.
By the way, we have some members who truly own their names. One is Reason.
Another is Sharp.
Very quickly, the most amusing icing story I have is about a flight from
Jackson Hole to Salt Lake City. An AC-680-F. Basic de-ice package. Got
plastered pretty bad and that was my punishment for launching from JAC, which
was clear, to SLC which was clear -- and being IFR en route.
Anyway, got to the SLC area where it was severe clear and had to turn down an
offer of a visual approach because I couldn't see through the windshield. I
was the only guy doing an ILS in "clear and sixty" that day. I was also the
only guy in the airspace who couldn't maintain "visual separation" from all
the other aircraft and became a nuisance to approach control.
The moral to the story is that boots and power are fine but if you really
expect to duke it out with ice, the full package requires:
Wing and empannage de-ice
Pitot/Static anti-ice
Windshield de-ice
Fuel vent anti-ice
Alternate air source for the engines
depending on model, Generator cooling inlet anti-ice
depending on model, Rudder tab anti-ice
Capt. Jimbob and another have mentioned losing the heater in icing. Want to
know something else chilling?
For those of you in the AC 500B/U/S, be prepared to lose your fuel flow guage
which is referenced to outside air pressure and 90% of those are not
anti-iced.
OK. Now that I've got all of you signing up for a third mortgage on your
home to buy a Known Icing package, do consider this, which I excerpt from FAR
25, Annex C. It's the criteria set for icing certification (both Part 23 or
25 certified airframes).
The full text is too much to put here. I'll highlight the scary part and put
the link to the full annex afterwards.
Bottom line, ladies and gentlemen, all that has to be demonstrated for Know
Icing certification is a flight in 17.4 nautical miles of continuous maximum
icing conditions. (Lots of graphs about droplet size, temperature, cloud
water vapor, etc.)
17.4 nautical miles. The point is, being de-iced can really seduce you into
a bad situation.
Now for some good news: Statistically, icing occurs in bands of 2000'
vertical feet and an area of 20 nm when it exists. (Remember, that's only
statistics. Ice is where you find it, regardless of what it says on the FAA
written tests!) So it is very possible to escape - or continue en route if
you have the altitude (up or down) options open to you.
For those of you with too much time on your hands, go look at this:
2000
CFR Title_14, Volume 1
Then, if you're flying into icing conditions, it will be fun to look at this
site:
NCAR-RAP Real-time
Integrated Icing Product
It's experimental, of course, but worth a look.
Oh -- one last comment and then I promise I'll shut up. Randy Sharp did
something very instinctive (though I tend to think it was lots of knowledge
that really caused it) and left his flaps up on that icy approach he made.
Little did he know that he was helping prevent a TAIL STALL by doing that.
A stalled tail requires the opposite recovery than what we've all been
trained to do and unless you've practiced recognizing it, you can't tell the
difference and you'll revert to the "traditional" stall recovery technique
and worsen the tail stall.
What ever ice you see on your wings ... you've got way more on your tail.
Think about THAT!!!!
I kind of feel like the Grim Reaper this morning ... sorry. Hope I didn't
put any of you on a bummer. Go put on your patented Dr. Milt Wild Shirt. It
will cheer you right up.
Hey! Look at it this way! Now you can be glad you can't fly if you're based
under enhanced Class B airspace. Yipeeeee!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long) |
In a message dated 10/2/2001 10:52:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
>
> Hey! Look at it this way! Now you can be glad you can't fly if you're
> based under enhanced Class B airspace. Yipeeeee!
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------- Headers
>
GREAT STUFF COMMANDER - I'VE FILED IN MY ARCHIVES
JIM FURLONG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | apg86(at)netscape.net <apg86(at)netscape.net> |
| Subject: | Call your senators and congressman now! |
I'm a Commander wannabe, and constantly check out the excellent information from
this web board, after reading the Aopa website I just want to remind you to
call your congressman or congress woman to let them know how much is affected
GA this enhance class B airspace
Andres Geraghty
PS
http://www.aopa.org
AOPA President Boyer: It's now time for member action!Call your senators and congressman
now!
Update: 10/2/2001 9:44:22 AM, ET AOPA is urging all pilots to take action to
help restore VFR flight in Class B airspace."We've been able to restore almost
all general aviation flying by working through FAA and the Department of Transportation,"
said AOPA President Phil Boyer. "Now it's time to turn to Congress
because FAA has not been able to get relief for these 30 geographic regions,
our major cities. The grassroots level will get us to the decision makers and
allow us to proactively offer solutions to the National Security Council that
will allow VFR pilots to return to the Class B skies."Pilots should call their
U.S. senators and congressman today to ask for their help in restoring flight
privileges. Specifically, pilots should ask their representatives to help
arrange a meeting between the National Security Council and AOPA (and other general
aviation organizations) to discuss procedures that will allow reasonable
VFR access to Class B airspace while addressing security and
__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the
convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <thall5(at)kc.rr.com> |
Commanderland,
TKS is found at http://www.weepingwings.com/
There are some interesting photos of N888CA behind a King Air tanker during
certification trials in their photo Gallery.
I think the 500 has about 2.7 hours of operation with a full tank of fluid.
That is a lot longer than 17.4 miles.
Central Air, John Towner, owns the STC for the Twin Commanders.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long) |
Wing Commander Gordon,
As usual you have brought up some very good points!
Especially on the equipment and certification process.
My feeling is the deice/anti-ice equipment is only good for getting you
thru or out of the conditions. (not to remain in it!)
>What ever ice you see on your wings ... you've got way more on your tail.
>Think about THAT!!!!
You are very correct on that.
I could not believe the ice that was clinging to the LOC antennas.
I was lucky that just a little ice had built up on the Horiz
Stab/vertical sections.
Most of the flat or blunt areas of the wing which had the wider chord
area collected the most.
(but of course i was only in it for a few minutes)
Can you imagine what it would have looked like after 10-20 minutes....
>I kind of feel like the Grim Reaper this morning ... sorry. Hope I didn't
>put any of you on a bummer. Go put on your patented Dr. Milt Wild Shirt.
No actually it keeps us from making those foolish mistakes later on.
(it keeps us sharp and these are points well taken, no pun intended)
Randy
CloudCraft(at)aol.com said:
>G'Day All,
>
>(I start off this way because our friends in Oz -- and Nico -- will be glad
>to fly where they fly - or flown)
>
>What I'm going to tell you about flight in icing conditions will make the
>pee run cold in you.
>
>Before I get into that, I'm all for as much de-ice and anti-ice equipment as
>you can equip yourself with. If that includes turbochargers, well, why not.
>
>By the way, we have some members who truly own their names. One is Reason.
>Another is Sharp.
>
>Very quickly, the most amusing icing story I have is about a flight from
>Jackson Hole to Salt Lake City. An AC-680-F. Basic de-ice package. Got
>plastered pretty bad and that was my punishment for launching from JAC,
>which
>was clear, to SLC which was clear -- and being IFR en route.
>
>Anyway, got to the SLC area where it was severe clear and had to turn down
>an
>offer of a visual approach because I couldn't see through the windshield. I
>was the only guy doing an ILS in "clear and sixty" that day. I was also the
>only guy in the airspace who couldn't maintain "visual separation" from all
>the other aircraft and became a nuisance to approach control.
>
>The moral to the story is that boots and power are fine but if you really
>expect to duke it out with ice, the full package requires:
>
>Wing and empannage de-ice
>Pitot/Static anti-ice
>Windshield de-ice
>Fuel vent anti-ice
>Alternate air source for the engines
>depending on model, Generator cooling inlet anti-ice
>depending on model, Rudder tab anti-ice
>
>Capt. Jimbob and another have mentioned losing the heater in icing. Want to
>know something else chilling?
>
>For those of you in the AC 500B/U/S, be prepared to lose your fuel flow
>guage
>which is referenced to outside air pressure and 90% of those are not
>anti-iced.
>
>OK. Now that I've got all of you signing up for a third mortgage on your
>home to buy a Known Icing package, do consider this, which I excerpt from
>FAR
>25, Annex C. It's the criteria set for icing certification (both Part 23 or
>25 certified airframes).
>
>The full text is too much to put here. I'll highlight the scary part and
>put
>the link to the full annex afterwards.
>
>Bottom line, ladies and gentlemen, all that has to be demonstrated for Know
>Icing certification is a flight in 17.4 nautical miles of continuous maximum
>icing conditions. (Lots of graphs about droplet size, temperature, cloud
>water vapor, etc.)
>
>17.4 nautical miles. The point is, being de-iced can really seduce you into
>a bad situation.
>
>Now for some good news: Statistically, icing occurs in bands of 2000'
>vertical feet and an area of 20 nm when it exists. (Remember, that's only
>statistics. Ice is where you find it, regardless of what it says on the FAA
>written tests!) So it is very possible to escape - or continue en route if
>you have the altitude (up or down) options open to you.
>
>For those of you with too much time on your hands, go look at this:
> HREF="http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr25_00.ht
>ml">2000 CFR Title_14, Volume 1
>
>Then, if you're flying into icing conditions, it will be fun to look at this
>site:
> HREF="http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html">NCAR-RAP Re
>al-time Integrated Icing Product
>
>It's experimental, of course, but worth a look.
>
>Oh -- one last comment and then I promise I'll shut up. Randy Sharp did
>something very instinctive (though I tend to think it was lots of knowledge
>that really caused it) and left his flaps up on that icy approach he made.
>Little did he know that he was helping prevent a TAIL STALL by doing that.
>
>A stalled tail requires the opposite recovery than what we've all been
>trained to do and unless you've practiced recognizing it, you can't tell the
>difference and you'll revert to the "traditional" stall recovery technique
>and worsen the tail stall.
>
>What ever ice you see on your wings ... you've got way more on your tail.
>Think about THAT!!!!
>
>I kind of feel like the Grim Reaper this morning ... sorry. Hope I didn't
>put any of you on a bummer. Go put on your patented Dr. Milt Wild Shirt.
>It will cheer you right up.
>
>Hey! Look at it this way! Now you can be glad you can't fly if you're
>based
>under enhanced Class B airspace. Yipeeeee!
>
>Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long) |
In a message dated 10/02/01 12:57:20 Pacific Daylight Time, sharp.r(at)apple.com
writes:
> Most of the flat or blunt areas of the wing which had the wider chord
> area collected the most.
>
Hi Randy ~
You were lucky. We've all been lucky.
The NASA research in the wake of the Roselawn, IL. (The ATR-7 that crashed
after holding out side of O'Hare) revealed that the smaller the radius, the
greater potential for ice build up.
It goes against my logic, but the leading edge thinking is that the smaller
airfoils get contaminated to the point of stall, first.
It's one of those counter-intuitive aviation things.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | garyloff <n27kb(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Winter stories |
If anyone is contemplating installing boots do yourself a favor a look at
TKS. It wins hands down.
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: Randy Sharp ;
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: Winter stories
> I have flown for 30 years near the equator and have never, ever
experienced
> ice. I have landed on back roads, no roads, all roads. In the bush out of
> the bush. Operated my 500 on a hill side which worked well as a 600'
runway
> because of the incline and 'take-off-down and land-up' procedures, it
> couldn't be sweeter. That's when you learn to land with full power to
avoid
> being stuck before reaching the plato. Well, it takes all kinds.
> Why am I scared when I think about encountering ice? I will pack real
boots
> (not painted ones), turbos, and hopefully good sense when the time comes.
I
> am sucking up these stories like a spunge. Perhaps it will one day bring
me
> some comfort.
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Sharp" <sharp.r(at)apple.com>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 7:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Winter stories
>
>
> > WilliamPeper(at)cs.com said:
> > >Howdy, folks
> > >I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in
> Vermont
> > >just this last weekend.....
> >
> > It's good to hear some of these real world flight experiences from other
> > Commander owners in the wx.
> >
> > This is actually a good time to bring up our winter accounts since we
are
> > quickly approaching the season. (some of you are already there) Winter
> > flying stories might be viewed differently by some pilots especially in
> > other parts of the country but we can all learn from these experiences
> > especially on how the pilot reacts to any given situation/condition they
> > find themselves in.
> >
> > Fortunately I have one to tell our Cmdr owners and with any luck it will
> > keep some of you out of the conditions I have experienced.
> > (I really do hate to do inflight icing tests in the Cmdr)
> >
> > Here goes:
> > A couple of years ago in the 500B late one night in Dec over the Midwest
> > I filed for an IFR flight plan from RIW to DTL (Riverton WY to Detroit
> > Lakes MN, KFAR was alternate).
> > Forecasts and present wx conditions were clear all the way into Fargo ND
> > "Hector Intl". (closest reporting point to our final destination)
> >
> > 100 miles west of intended airport (DTL) and 30 minutes from FAR we
> > noticed a cloud deck starting to form below us at around 5500ft.
> >
> > No issues at our cruising alt of 10K, OAT of -35C.
> > We received an update from Flight Watch and they were beginning to
report
> > 2500/7 at FAR and tops to 5K with no associated front. This was a thin
> > deck of only 2500 ft. A very unusual obscuration had formed in the
local
> > area and was slowly spreading to a wider region, which was unpredicted
by
> > the wx service. Since DTL is another 50 miles away and they were
> > reporting lower ceilings to the east we decided not to continue on and
> > spend the night at Fargo. (DTL had only a VOR approach and the area is
> > quite dark with very few city lights.)
> >
> > During the approach into FAR our descent profile was delayed
(restricted)
> > in the clouds for a NW jet landing in sequence. We immediately started
> > to pick up MOD RIME Ice at 3200ft in less than 30 seconds. 1-2 inches
> > had formed on the inboard leading edge of the wing and teh OAT was now
> > rising to -15 to -20 C. (You would think being this cold you would
> > pick-up very little ice).
> >
> > Since the approach takes you over a warm city at night the convective
air
> > rising upward turned very cold air into warm RIME ice, (relatively
> > speaking). Well anyway we requested an immediate climb back up to around
> > 4K where we did not experience the build up of ice.
> > Luckily we did have an out and so we requested the next approach be an
> > unabated descent to ILS minimums which was well below the current
> > ceilings (now at 2000 agl which was lowering with time). We broke out at
> > 2000 agl to see the approach landing lights for a very smooth landing on
> > ICE and light snow.
> >
> > For the longest 2-3 minutes of time, the ice accumulation on the
> > Commander was handled quite well, the heater did shut done due to the
air
> > intact being iced over and the props sure loved to shed all of that ice
> > right up against the side of the fuselage. The GNS-430s worked well in
> > the now very cold cabin with no heat and everything did function as
usual
> > including A/S instruments etc. I decided to keep the A/S up on final to
> > ensure the stall speed hadn't been modified or increased by ice forming
> > on the wings and we didn't use any flaps fearing asymmetrical issues
upon
> > lowering them.
> >
> > That was one long night for a supposedly clear night on an IFR flight
> > plan which was forecasted to be VFR. (can you image the poor sole who
was
> > only VFR rated getting into these conditions?)
> >
> > The antennas had a large blob of ice covering them.
> > My initial fear was the LOC/GS coupled whisker antennax would break off.
> > (another reason to go with the blade type)
> > Thank goodness they didn't break off but I was prepared to do a GPS
> > approach having my 3 low profile GPS antennas intact if needed.
> >
> > After we landed the lineman said "gee" it looks like you picked up some
> > ice. (dah)
> > He said we had at least another 30 minutes to go before we had a major
> > problem.
> > (His experiences from other Cmdrs arriving to this airport during the
> > winter).
> >
> > Lessons learned.
> > We didn't know what the rest of the general area was doing since this
was
> > a freak wx pattern and it developed quickly, with very little wx reports
> > being so late in the evening.
> > With that in mind we decided to do an approach into a large metropolitan
> > airport rather than some small airport with very little wx facilities.
> > (there are not very many serviceable airports in this area)
> >
> > 1. Be prepared for any conditions that could change during the flight
> > profile.
> > (at least try to plan for most contingencies "think worst case").
> > We did land at the alternate but what happens if the alternate is not
> > available, do you have another alternate planned?
> > Even though the alternate met the ceiling/vis requirements during
initial
> > filing (clear during filing and forecast) it did not meet the equipment
> > requirements of a non deiced airplane during the approach. (semantics I
> > know, but correct)
> > In this case it was either get down and land or fly 100 miles outside
the
> > area and possibly run into the same conditions elsewhere with a less
> > desirable airport.
> >
> > 2. Update destination wx as frequently as possible even if the forecast
> > and surrounding airports are reporting clear. Start the divert process
> > early on in order for your options to be plentiful.
> >
> > 3. Check all of your equipment before flight even if you don't intend on
> > using them.
> > Unfortunately not having deice on the wings doesn't help but I did check
> > the Pitot heat and other vital equipment before a flight as I ALWAYS do.
> >
> > 4. Know your equipment and practice using them as much as possible.
> > (note failed history patterns)
> > ie will it fail under certain conditions, will outside forces disable it
> > quickly and rapidly,
> > how can the pilot minimize the effects of a failed unit on the rest of
> > the equipment, failed heater, etc?
> >
> > These are just a few and I'm sure we can add to this list.
> >
> > Hope I didn't bore you in the process but winter flying always seems to
> > lend itself to a very quick learning curve if not properly prepared.
> >
> > I also currently fly USAF equipment that is approved into known Moderate
> > Icing conditions but I'm still concerned when I have to use it. I have
> > HAD deice equipment fail in flight and it does limit and change your
> > escape routes most readily.
> > Those are more stories for later on....
> >
> > Having a crew of 5 in a military aircraft can help and pool resources
> > quickly.
> >
> > Being a single pilot when conditions go to less than desirable will
> > effect your reaction time. I was lucky to have a copilot onboard to
help
> > with wx calls chart preparation etc during the ordeal. I always like to
> > take a spare pilot when able, it helps share the fun or terror. (just
> > kidding)
> >
> > I'm sure WC Gordon can enlighten us with some good stories as a crew
> > member and/or single pilot?
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Major Randy "Laser" Sharp ANG/USAF, MEII-A/H
> > The ultimate vertical Flight experience.
> > HH-60G...PaveHawk "The Jolly Green Giants"
> > 129TH RQS "RESCUE SERVICE"; Fly Safe!
> > AC-500B Twin Commander "N6367U" my baby C130
> >
> > "-within the hearts of all who fly, lives
> > the child who once stood at the gate to their future-"
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >
> > WilliamPeper(at)cs.com said:
> > >Howdy, folks
> > >I flew from central Texas to see my 83 year-old B-17 pilot uncle in
> Vermont
> > >just this last weekend. My fake boots (painted on. . . really look
cool)
> > >got
> > >no further than removing the fake ice.
> > >At 9,000 MSL we were accumulating a mild amount of rime, so I requested
> > >lower. Got 7,000 feet and flew into a rain shower . . . that is, a
> freezing
> > >rain shower (was about -2 C). Clear ice began accumulating rapidly,
and
> I
> > >wasted no time in descending to 5,000 MSL, where it was +3 C and we
shed
> the
> > >ice rapidly.
> > >I used to own a 58TC known-icing Baron when I lived on the Left Coast,
> and
> > >my
> > >advice is to have BOTH deicing and turbos, if you plan to fly the cold,
> wet
> > >clouds a lot. In reality, I only really needed that equipment about
five
> > >times in three years, but I did need it, and I'm sittin' here alive and
> well
> > >to tell you about it!
> > >For those of you for whom your Commander is your first twin or good
> > >instrument airplane, remember that icing will quickly emasculate an
> > >otherwise outstanding airplane, from a performance standpoint. I
> couldn't
> > >have stayed in the clear ice in my Shrike for another ten minutes
without
> > >extreme adverse flight characteristics (fallin' out of the sky!).
> > >Be careful, be safe . . . let's all get to be OLD pilots.
> > >Bill Peper
> > >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WilliamPeper(at)cs.com <WilliamPeper(at)cs.com> |
Hey, I'd like to hear from some of you aerospace engineer types, but my
physics teaching always depicted the the supercooled droplets in the air as
essentially being a continuous flow of microspheres in a "stream" of air. The
air "stream" is actually a reversal of perspective . . . the air is fairly
still, while it's actually the airplane that passes thru it. For all intents
and purposes, however, think of the airplane as being stationary, and the
airstream as a fast-moving stream over the leading edges.
Ice typically forms on shapes with smaller radii, because in effect, the
airstream (with its suspended droplets) does not have the time to conform to
the surface shape change, and the droplets "smash" against the surface. The
root of the wing (excepting dams, fences, etc.) has a nice, gradual change in
radius, and thus the "stream" of suspended water droplets can actually better
flow up and over the wing (without ever contacting it), than if they hit
something small in radius, like an outside temp probe or a whip antenna.
In my Cherokee 180, it was always the outside temp probe to get ice first . .
. for some reason (shape of the nose and windshield?), it does not accumulate
first here on my Shrike, but rather the wing well outboard of the engines
gets it.
All this pertains to rime ice caused by dropLETS, not DROPS or BLOBS of
water. Clear ice (from freezing rain) is a completely different animal,
extremely vicious, and will splash and freeze instantly on anything (esp.
metal) which has a temp. less than 0 degrees Celsius.
Whadaya think of this explanation, you brainy types?
I stand with my hat off. . .
Bill Peper
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ice and radii |
In a message dated 10/02/01 16:44:22 Pacific Daylight Time,
WilliamPeper(at)cs.com writes:
> Whadaya think of this explanation, you brainy types?
>
Careful! Before any of you decide to debate Bill Peper on any topic, I
should warn you that he happens to be a brilliant heart surgeon -- and is
very correct on his explanation on why ice builds up on steeply curved
surfaces more than blunt ones.
I bet he walks into pool halls and pretends like he's never played pool
before ...
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | OpinionJournal - Best of the Web Today - October 2, 2001 |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ice and radii |
Well that figures!
Youd have to know sugeons.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: WilliamPeper(at)cs.com ; commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: Ice and radii
In a message dated 10/02/01 16:44:22 Pacific Daylight Time, WilliamPeper(at)cs.com
writes:
Whadaya think of this explanation, you brainy types?
Careful! Before any of you decide to debate Bill Peper on any topic, I should
warn you that he happens to be a brilliant heart surgeon -- and is very correct
on his explanation on why ice builds up on steeply curved surfaces more than
blunt ones.
I bet he walks into pool halls and pretends like he's never played pool before
...
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Michael Graham's Dumbest Generation |
Check out this review, and then buy the book if so inclined... Great
synopsis, I think.
Click
here: Books: W. Thomas Smith Jr. on Michael Graham's Dumbest Generation
on National Review Online
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | The Clinton Administration's Security Legacy |
This is wayyyy long, but those that are interested will find it good reading.
It's by Andrew Sullivan, titled September
11: The Clinton Administration's
Security Legacy from FrontPage Magazine.com.
The Fruits of Negligence
document.write("")
The Clinton Administration's Security Legacy
In the initial shock of the September 11 Massacre, one small notion lodged
itself into the mass psyche. It's perhaps best summed up by the phrase, "Who
could have seen that coming?" Because of the sheer audacity of the attack,
its novel use of kamikaze-style airplanes, its uniquely horrendous
death-toll, most of us tended to exculpate the leaders of the United States
for any responsibility for the lax security and failure of intelligence and
foreign policy it represented. We put the blame - rightly - on the terrorists
who bear sole responsibility for the massacre. But more than two weeks later,
as the sheer extent of America's unpreparedness and vulnerability comes into
better focus, one other conclusion is inescapable. The September 11 massacre
resulted from a fantastic failure on the part of the United States government
to protect its citizens from an act of war. This failure is now staring us in
the face, and if we are to be successful in rectifying the errors, it's
essential we acknowledge as plainly as possible what went wrong.
Two questions come to mind: How was it that the Osama bin Laden network,
known for more than a decade, was still at large and dangerous enough this
autumn to inflict such a deadly blow? Who was responsible in the American
government for such a failure of intelligence, foreign policy and national
security? These questions have not been asked directly for good reasons.
There is a need to avoid recriminations at a time of national crisis. No good
is accomplished by playing a blame game now. But at the same time, the
American lack of preparedness on September 11 is already slowing our capacity
to bring Osama bin Laden to justice and constricting some of the military and
diplomatic options in front of us. And with a president only a few months yet
in office, criticism need not extend to the young administration that largely
inherited this tattered security apparatus and is now trying to repair the
damage. Whatever failures of intelligence, security or diplomacy exist, they
have roots far deeper than the first nine months of this year. When national
disasters of unpreparedness have occurred in other countries - say, the
invasion of the Falkland Islands - ministers responsible have resigned.
Taking responsibility for mistakes in the past is part of the effort not to
repeat them. So why have heads not rolled?
The most plausible answer is that no-one has been fired and no fingers
pointed because this attack was so novel and impossible to predict that
nothing in our security apparatus could have prevented it. The only problem
with this argument is that it is patently untrue. Throughout the Clinton
years, this kind of attack was not only predictable but predicted. Not only
had Osama bin Laden already attacked the United States, its embassies and
warships, he had done so repeatedly and been more than completely frank about
his war with the United States. He had even attempted to destroy the World
Trade Center in 1993! Same guy, same building. To say that this attack came
out of the blue is simply belied by any rudimentary examination of the facts.
And to say that we couldn't have anticipated this type of attack is simply to
say that our intelligence wasn't good enough to have found it out.
How prominent were the warnings of the danger of Islamic terrorism in the
1990s? Here's one: "The crater beneath the World Trade Center and the
uncovering of a plot to set off more gigantic bombs and to assassinate
leading political figures have shown Americans how brutal these [Islamic]
extremists can be." This was written by Salman Rushdie in the New York Times
in 1993. Did the Clinton administration overhaul its intelligence and defense
priorities in response to the 1993 warning? The answer is clearly no. No
effort was made to coordinate the various mess of agencies designed to
counter terrorism - the FBI, the CIA, the Pentagon, the State Department, the
airlines, local law enforcement, the Coast Guard. No effort was made to
recruit more spies who could speak Arabic or go effectively undercover to
preempt such terrorist attacks. Under the Clinton administration, a law was
passed actually making it more difficult for the U.S. to use spies who had
sleazy or criminal pasts - exactly the kind needed to infiltrate bin Laden's
tight terrorist cells. The debacle of the Somalia expedition in 1992 and 1993
- which led to Delta Force units being humiliated - dramatically chilled the
military's willingness to use such units in action again. This occurred
despite the fact that aggressive use of those units - as we are seeing today
- was critical to any successful effort to regain the initiative against
terrorism.
In a remarkably revealing and over-looked article in last week's New Yorker,
Joe Klein argues that "there seems to be near-unanimous agreement among
experts: in the ten years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, almost
every aspect of American national-security policy-from military operations to
intelligence gathering, from border control to political leadership-has been
marked by ... institutional lassitude and bureaucratic arrogance." The
decision to get down and dirty with the terrorists, to take their threat
seriously and counter them aggressively was simply never taken. Many bear the
blame for this: the clueless, stately secretary of state Warren Christopher;
the tortured intellectual at the National Security Council, Anthony Lake;
General Colin Powell, whose decision to use Delta Force units in Somalia so
badly backfired; but above all president Bill Clinton, whose inattention to
foreign affairs, especially when it meant military and security matters, now
seems part of the reason why America was so vulnerable to slaughter earlier
this month.
Klein cites this devastating quote from a senior Clinton official: "Clinton
spent less concentrated attention on national defense than any other
President in recent memory. He could learn an issue very quickly, but he
wasn't very interested in getting his hands dirty with detail work. His style
was procrastination, seeing where everyone was, before taking action. This
was truer in his first term than it was in the second, but even when he began
to pay attention he was severely constrained by public opinion and his own
unwillingness to take risks." It is hard to come up with a more damning
description of negligence than that.
Clinton even got a second chance. In 1998, after bin Laden struck again at
U.S. embassies in Africa, the president was put on notice that the threat was
deadly serious. He responded with a couple of fitful missile strikes against
Afghanistan and Sudan, some of which missed their targets and none of which
killed or seriously impacted Osama bin Laden. Clinton's own former Defense
Secretary, John Deutch, wrote in the New York Times that August: "We must
insist on superior intelligence that will warn of potential terrorist
actions. We must insist on tough and prompt responses to such acts and on
developing an effective capability to manage the consequences of these acts
when they occur. These are major challenges and, in general, public and
private experts have concluded that our country is not fully prepared to act
effectively on these matters." Clinton largely ignored the warning. The
Post's Jim Hoagland warned in the same month: "There are troubling signs that
this president could once again stage a pinprick raid, announce the problem
solved and turn back to his own domestic and personal preoccupations. A
single night of missile strikes against remote desert sites will not leave
America's self-declared enemies off balance for long." Give that man a medal
for foresight.
Again in the Washington Post that August, the following prescient words were
written by L. Paul Bremer III, former anti-terrorism chief in the Reagan
administration: "The ideology of such groups [as bin Laden's] makes them
impervious to political or diplomatic pressures. They hate America, its
values and its culture and proudly declare themselves to be at war with us.
We cannot seek a "political solution" with them." Bremer then set out a list
of what the U.S. should do: "Defend ourselves. Beef up security around
potential targets here and abroad, especially "softer" targets such as
American businesses overseas. Attack the enemy. Keep the pressure on
terrorist groups. Show that we can be as systematic and relentless as they
are. Crush bin Ladin's operations by pressure and disruption. The U.S.
government should order further military strikes against the remaining
terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and Sudan. The U.S. government
further should announce a large reward for bin Laden's capture -- dead or
alive. This might work and at the least would exacerbate the paranoia common
to all terrorists." Sound familiar? It's exactly what we're doing now, three
years too late, with no element of surprise, and with far from adequate human
intelligence.
This brings Bremer to the most critical point in his recommendations:
"Improve our intelligence operations. Effective counterterrorism depends on
good intelligence... We must preempt and disrupt attacks before they happen.
This requires improved coordination of intelligence collection against
terrorist groups. While it is difficult, we should expand the use of deep
cover agents on the ground to infiltrate terrorist organizations." None of
this happened. Agencies bickered, the president was too concerned with sexual
harassment lawsuits, the C.I.A.'s feckless record went uncorrected.
Perhaps the most farsighted critic was a man called Reuel Marc Gerecht, a
former case officer in the CIA's clandestine service and the author, under
the pseudonym Edward Shirley, of "Know thine Enemy: A Spy's Journey into
Revolutionary Iran." In the Atlantic Monthly this past summer, he emphasized
the extreme need for trained spies to go underground in the Muslim world of
Afghanistan and Pakistan if the West were ever to get adequate intelligence
on bin Laden's operation. But as late as 1999, not a single such
"non-official-cover" spy had been trained or used for such a purpose. A
former senior Near East Division operative told Gerecht, "The CIA probably
doesn't have a single truly qualified Arabic-speaking officer of Middle
Eastern background who can play a believable Muslim fundamentalist who would
volunteer to spend years of his life with shitty food and no women in the
mountains of Afghanistan. For Christ's sake, most case officers live in the
suburbs of Virginia. We don't do that kind of thing." A younger case officer
summed up the policy to Gerecht thus: "Operations that include diarrhea as a
way of life don't happen."
Gerecht also reported the following devastating fact: "Robert Baer, one of
the most talented Middle East case officers of the past twenty years (and the
only operative in the 1980s to collect consistently first-rate intelligence
on the Lebanese Hizbollah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad), suggested to
headquarters in the early 1990s that the CIA might want to collect
intelligence on Afghanistan from the neighboring Central Asian republics of
the former Soviet Union. Headquarters' reply: Too dangerous, and why bother?
The Cold War there was over with the Soviet withdrawal in 1989. Afghanistan
was too far away, internecine warfare was seen as endemic, and radical Islam
was an abstract idea. Afghanistan has since become the brain center and
training ground for Islamic terrorism against the United States, yet the
CIA's clandestine service still usually keeps officers on the Afghan account
no more than two or three years." If you want to know why it seems unlikely
that the United States knows enough about bin Laden's whereabouts to mount an
immediate attack today, then re-read those sentences. This is an intelligence
failure of colossal proportions. What happened to the man who presided over
that massive failure? George Tenet, director of the CIA since 1997, is still
in his job.
Not everyone in Washington was asleep at the switch. In response to the
African embassy bombings, a National Commission on Terrorism was set up to
propose changes. It was headed by a top-notch group of former officials and
got plenty of press attention. The panel argued that the United States was
extremely vulnerable to a massive attack by a group like al Quaeda and
recommended better espionage, more Arabic-speaking spies, better intelligence
sharing between the FBI and the CIA, wider wiretapping, and much of what is
now on the table. The report was even prescient enough to have a picture of
the World Trade Center on its cover, as Franklin Foer reports in the current
New Republic.
The report died the death of a thousand quibbles. Civil liberties advocates
complained about a threat to individual freedom. The Arab American
Institute's James Zogby said the proposals were like "the darkest days of the
McCarthy era." A writer in the liberal online magazine Salon described the
warnings of a domestic attack as "a con job with roughly the veracity of the
latest Robert Ludlum novel." As Foer details, the CIA opposed lowering its
squeaky clean standards for spies, and the FBI was desperate, under Clinton,
to avoid any Reagan-like dirty tricks in its operation. When the report came
to the Congress, it was attacked by Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy who
distrusted the CIA and wanted to avoid what he called "risks to important
civil liberties we hold dear." The proposal picked up momentum after the
attack on the U.S.S. Cole in October 2000, but was so watered down by the end
of the legislative process that it was virtually useless. Its supporters let
it die. The Clinton administration did next to nothing to rescue it. The
president was busy preparing pardons for multi-millionaire criminals on the
lam.
Former Clinton National Security Adviser, Sandy Berger, defended Clinton's
record to Joe Klein in the New Yorker. He argued that after the embassy
bombings there was a concerted effort to find and kill bin Laden and that the
cruise missile in Afghanistan missed its target by an hour, after which bin
Laden disappeared from view. Anonymous Clinton officials also blame former
Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin for resisting measures to cut off bin Laden's
financing and to use cyber warfare to crack down generally on the terrorists'
money network. Others blame the FBI: "[The FBI's] standard line was that
Osama bin Laden wasn't a serious domestic-security threat," one source told
Klein. "They said that bin Laden had about two hundred guys on the ground and
they had drawn a bead on them." But whatever the nuances of blame here, it's
clear that no-one from the top intervened, imposed order and reorganization,
and took the terrorist threat seriously enough to defeat it, or even put it
on the defensive.
Earlier this year, yet another report, chaired by respected former Senators
Hart and Rudman, came to yet another definitive conclusion that the United
States was vulnerable. They made exactly the same recommendations that are
now finally being implemented; the report was well advertized and
disseminated in the press - and still nothing was done.
Hindsight is easy of course. In the halcyon and feckless climate of the
1990s, it would have required real political leadership to dragoon various,
stubborn government agencies into a difficult reorganization to counter
terrorism. It would have been extremely hard to persuade a sceptical public
and a prickly civil liberties lobby that vast new government powers were
necessary to prevent catastrophe. This much is true. But it's also true that
there were several clear, loud, unmistakable attacks on the U.S. by the very
forces that have now launched a war. It is also true that many, many people
recognized this and were brave enough to warn about it. In August 1998,
Milton Bearden, the former C.I.A. chief in Pakistan and the Sudan, wrote in
the New York Times: "The case against Osama bin Laden, who occupies a
stronghold in Afghanistan, is clear-cut. Through his self-proclaimed
sponsorship of terrorism against the United States, he has, in effect,
declared war on us." In July of 1999, William Cohen, Clinton's own Defense
Secretary, wrote in the Washington Post, that, "In the past year, dozens of
threats to use chemical or biological weapons in the United States have
turned out to be hoaxes. Someday, one will be real." Whatever excuses the
Clinton administration may have for its failure, they cannot trot out of the
excuse of not having been warned. We were all warned. We just preferred to
look the other way.
If we look today as Michael Foot did after the outbreak of the Second World
War, it is clear that there are many in the United States government who,
while not being "guilty men," in sympathizing with and appeasing the enemy
threatening their country, were nevertheless at the very least "negligent
men." They deserve some sympathy. They were imperfect human beings in a world
where September 11 was still an abstraction. But we pay our politicians to
see through abstractions and assess the possibility of an actual threat.
That's what they are there for. And on that critical task, they failed. If
the security manager of a nuclear power plant presides over a massive
external attack on it, then it's only right that he should be held
responsible in part for what happened. Over 6000 people are now living with
the deadly consequences of the negligence of the government of the United
States. There is no greater duty for such a government than the maintenance
of national security, and the physical protection of its own citizens from
harm. When a senior Clinton official can say of his own president that he
"spent less concentrated attention on national defense than any other
President in recent memory," and when this presidency is followed by the most
grievous breach of domestic security in American history, it is not
unreasonable to demand some accounting.
Clinton is not alone. The list of people who resisted or thwarted the
measures needed to have avoided this catastrophe are many. They reach back to
president George H.W. Bush, who balked at removing Saddam Hussein from power
at the end of the Gulf War, thus leaving the single most dangerous abettor of
international terrorism at large on the world stage. They include Bush and
Clinton officials who failed to see the danger in the vacuum left in
Afghanistan after the successful insurgency against the Soviets. They include
Colin Powell, who crafted the Gulf campaign, and who followed it with the
Somalia debacle that helped neuter the military's anti-terrorism campaign
thereafter. They include senators and congressmen and lobbyists and civil
liberties advocates and journalists - all of whom failed to see the danger
staring us in the face. Very few of us are free from blame, but the most
blame must surely be attributed to the top.
We thought for a long time that the Clinton years would be seen in retrospect
as a mixed blessing. He was sleazy and unprincipled, we surmised, but he was
also competent, he led an economic recovery, and he conducted a foreign
policy of multilateral distinction. But the further we get away from the
Clinton years, the more damning they seem. The narcissistic, feckless,
escapist culture of an America absent without leave in the world was fomented
from the top. The boom at the end of the decade turned out to include a
dangerous bubble which the administration did little to prevent. The
"peace-making" in the Middle East and Ireland merely intensified the
conflicts. The sex and money scandals were not just debilitating in
themselves. They meant that even the minimal attention that the Clinton
presidency paid to strategic military and intelligence work was skimped on.
We were warned. But we were coasting. We were deluding ourselves. And the
main person primarily tasked with correcting that delusion, with ensuring our
national security - the president himself - was part of the problem. Through
the dust clouds of September 11 and during the difficult task ahead, one
person hovers over the wreckage - and that's Bill Clinton. His legacy gets
darker and darker with each passing day.
Additional research by Reihan Salam.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Berkeley breaks from anti-war past |
A sign of hope?
Berkeley breaks from anti-war past >
By Thomas D. Elias
SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES
>
BERKELEY, Calif. A different kind of war is brewing, and it's drawing
a completely different kind of response on the University of California's
Berkeley campus than the war in Vietnam or any subsequent U.S. military
involvement.
For one thing, so far not a single American flag has been burned at
Berkeley, the nation's foremost symbol of student protest. There have even
been pro-U.S. rallies.
That's partly because Berkeley now has a different kind of student.
Yes, there have been protests against massive retaliation for the Sept.
11 terror attacks on America, but they have been largely drowned out by much
larger gatherings supporting both the terror victims and President Bush's
early steps toward a response.
Only about 100 protesters staged a sit-in outside the student newspaper,
the Daily Californian, after it carried a cartoon depicting a huge hand about
to deposit two turbaned Arabs into the fires of hell as they unknowingly are
telling each other, "We made it to Paradise! Now we will meet Allah, and be
fed grapes and be serviced by 70 virgin women ..."
"If the Daily Cal had printed any cartoon showing Ho Chi Minh entering
hell back in the Vietnam era, they might have been burned down, and there
surely would have been a huge demonstration against it on Sproul Plaza," said
Gloria Effort, a 1969 Berkeley graduate. "There's a huge change."
In fact, by far the largest campus gathering since the attacks was a
Sept. 17 memorial service for the victims that drew 12,000 students. The
night of the attacks, about 500 students staged a spontaneous candlelight
vigil in Sproul Plaza. Meanwhile, the largest anti-retaliation demonstration
drew 2,500 students out of the campus total of more than 32,000. It was
followed the next day by an almost equally large "Rally for America."
On Sept. 24, pro-U.S. demonstrators rallied again, shouting "U.S.A.,
U.S.A.," perhaps the first time that chant has been heard in the heart of
American dissidence. The city of Berkeley drew national outrage when fire
chiefs ordered large American flags removed from fire engines last week for
fear they might be ripped off the trucks by demonstrating students.
"The university has no fire department and had nothing to do with that
decision," said campus spokeswoman Janet Gilmore. In fact, there have been no
incidents in Berkeley since the attacks involving either ripping down or
defacing flags.
Even the largest campus anti-war rally of the last two weeks, addressed
by Michael Nagler, chairman of the school's Peace and Conflict Studies
program, called not for no response, but for diplomatic action to bring
responsible parties to justice.
"We're mostly heartsick and extremely frightened because we know the
retaliation will be counterproductive," said Mr. Nagler, a graduate student
at Berkeley during the free-speech movement days of the 1960s. "Retaliation
will only recycle the violence."
Some longtime professors who remember the fervor of the Vietnam-era
anti-war demonstrations are not surprised today's students lack similarly
strong feelings.
They note that Berkeley is no longer the mostly white college it was 35
years ago, but today has a majority of minorities, with Asian students the
second largest student-body component behind whites. The school has far more
engineering students today and far fewer humanities students than in the
1960s and early '70s.
"One reason you got so much anti-war fervor then is that Vietnam never
attacked America," said Thomas Barnes, 71, a professor of military history.
"We now see that we have an enemy. Some of us weren't sure of that during
Vietnam. Also, these students aren't in revolt against anything, not their
parents, or sex or drugs. It's a very different time."
Yes, this is still Berkeley, and there will be teach-ins and
demonstrations. But students who carry large American flags on campus are not
hassled. When Gleb Brichko, a 22-year-old Russian immigrant who recently
became an American citizen, carried a flag to his classes last week, he
reported that "two people came up to me and said, 'Don't you know we burn the
flag in Berkeley?' But my feeling is that if you don't support the country,
you should get out."
So far this time, not a single flag has been burned at Berkeley, the
symbol of college protest in America.
"This is 2001, not 1968," said Randy Barnes (no relation to the
professor), lead organizer of Monday's pro-U.S. rally. "This is not about
Vietnam, but an act of aggression acted upon us as a nation."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Blair says 'Let us reorder this world' |
Again, a long read, but I think Tony Blair (can I be saying this?) should be
commended. A great speech!
Click
here: Guardian Unlimited Politics | Special Reports | Blair says 'Let
us reorder this world'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
Any experience with or info about VGs and ice accumulation aft of the leading edge?
Any VGs on aerocommanders?
What is effect of aft CG loading relative to tailplane stall in icing?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Milt,
I saw a Twin Commander 500B in Alaska about 10 years ago that had VG strips
on the wing and tail.
It also had a leading edge cuff and Roberson style STOL kit on it.
I was told it could do amazing on short field take off.
I do not remember the N number or who owned it.
I think that stall speed and VMC were about the same.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Cableone.net [mailto:n414c(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 6:52 AM
To: Commander Tech Chat
Subject: VGs
Any experience with or info about VGs and ice accumulation aft of the
leading edge?
Any VGs on aerocommanders?
What is effect of aft CG loading relative to tailplane stall in icing?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 10/03/01 05:09:51 Pacific Daylight Time,
n414c(at)cableone.net writes:
>
Of course you knew this would elicit yet another long winded story out of me,
didn't you?
About 4 or 5 years ago I was giving an initial checkout in a 680-FP to a
fellow who had a beautiful piece of property near Mt. St. Helens in
Washington state. 100 x 100 hangar and a banana shaped, 1700' section of
driveway he used as his landing strip. The departure end was a cliff that
dropped steeply to Lake Merwyn, several hundred feet below.
(working with clients with special needs like this earned me the "Menace to
Aviation" award)
His need for VGs was clear. We flew over to meet with Mr. Charles White of
Micro Aerodynamics, Inc., at Anacortes, WA.
He eyeballed the Commander and said, "The wing is as good as it gets ... but
I bet I can eliminate Vmc from the Commander."
His plan was to place his VGs on the vertical stabilizer, just forward of the
rudder to keep it from nearing stall and thus keeping it effective at lower
speed.
He said he'd research the numbers in the fleet to determine if there was
justification to do the R&D. My client offered up his airplane with me in it
to do the flight testing. Never heard back.
Imagine: an Aero Commander with no Vmc. I've been begging for someone to
develop VGs for our fleet ever since. There is someone quietly working on
this and I hope they're getting near to bringing it to market.
Tail plane stall. This is tricky to explain and I'll probably get it wrong
so I'm hoping some of you will rescue me.
Remember the horizontal stabilizer is a small wing that puts it's lift in the
downward direction, opposing (balancing) the tendency of the nose to go down
because CG is forward of the Center of Lift.
The more forward the CG, the more downward force (lift) is needed at the
tail. The more downward lift needed, the higher the angle of attack of the
tail plane. (This is why aft loading is better for climb and cruise
performance)
Flap extension INCREASES tail plane angle of attack due in part to downwash
airflow deflection of the flaps.
That's why flaps extension can bring on tail stall when its leading edge is
contaminated.
The recovery? Partial flap retraction and a very unusual pitching up moment
to lower angle of attack on the tail.
Problem is, a stall is perceived as a wing stall and we go into our trained
response.
If you're in icing conditions and you sense the onset of stall as you lower
flaps, bring the flaps back up a notch and pitch up.
As pointed out by one of our list members, flying an iced airplane makes you
a test pilot ... just as you configure at the final approach fix.
"Business and Commercial Aviation" had a brilliant article about all this
about 3 years ago and if I can find my copy, I'll let everyone know the issue
number.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com> |
Commander:
I owned a Super H-18 N18ET BA-663.
You are correct concerning additional speed with aft
loading. While on a Hunting trip to Bellville Kansas, from Rome Ga. We made the
300 pounder sit on the
potty...In the rear of the cabin.
No JOKE the indicated airspeed increased 10 KTS.
As for VG's I had them on a CE-421 and 2 Barons, one was a 58-P...
I've never seen VG's on either Commanders or Aztecs.
There must be a good reason.
FlySafe...Gary Tillman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Class B Airsace Restriction - HELP! |
In a message dated 10/3/2001 6:52:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
forward@net-link.net writes:
<< YOUR HELP IS IMMEDIATELY NEEDED! >>
HI KIDS.......
I just called my representatives and it only took a couple of
minutes. I got right through. Sen Murray's office said they had, had
"several hundred" calls and the matter was "on her desk." PLEASE call
yours!! Thanks jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 10/03/01 09:08:37 Pacific Daylight Time, TILLMAN333 writes:
> I've never seen VG's on either Commanders or Aztecs.
> There must be a good reason.
>
Gary,
That "good reason" depends on what side of the dollar equation you're on.
Mr. White of Micro Aerodynamics was very clear about the total numbers in the
fleet (potential sales) and the ratio of how many of those owners would
likely buy the kit.
He figured it takes 1/3 of the fleet to make it profitable, base on his
previous experience with 300 and 400 series Cessnas, along with the Beech 55
/ 58 series.
Of course, if he's offering kits for the Husky, something's askew because we
have a lot more in our fleet than there are Aviat Huskies, (I think) and I'd
hope we're still a viable market.
Commander owners are mod crazy. Ask Gary Gadberrry. Ask the Service Centers
who put out the Renaissance Commanders.
Let me propose a very quick and dirty survey. How many of you on this list
would buy a VG kit for your Commander (or, if you don't own one yet, would
buy VGs when you do).
Next. How much would you pay to lower or eliminate Vmc, which ever is
possible?
I think this info could be revealing to someone considering development of
such a kit.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts |
CloudCraft(at)aol.com said:
>In a message dated 10/02/01 12:57:20 Pacific Daylight Time,
>> Most of the flat or blunt areas of the wing which had the wider chord
>> area collected the most.
This was only an observation and not the physics behind it.
>The NASA research in the wake of the Roselawn, IL. (The ATR-7 that crashed
>after holding out side of O'Hare) revealed that the smaller the radius, the
>greater potential for ice build up.
Very good point.
In addition, to the radius of the object is the surface material
characteristics.
The sharp radius of an object is only one mechanism why ice forms on
aircraft surfaces but not the root cause.
The surface material (surface tension and adhesive characteristics) is
the main reason why and how ice molecules form or adhere to aircraft
surfaces, ie metal, plastic, polymers, rubber, silicone, fiberglass
Teflon, etc.
For example:
I noticed that after landing I inspected the tail section and there was
very little ice on the Horizontal Stabilizer. Why was this? The radius on
the stab was much smaller than the leading edge of the inboard wing.
I suspected 2 reasons:
1. The breather tubes during the long flight had been spraying the
leading edge of the stab with a light film of oil. (a very good de-icing
fluid, This is our standard cmdr deicer).
2. Possibly the heat from the engine exhaust had kept some of it off the
surfaces directly behind the nacelles. Ice would not form even on the
sharper radius areas.
I noticed the upper rudder areas had more build-up ie above the oil bath
and engine exhaust.
Another example I noted was the antennas;
The whisker LOC antenna was made out of a course metal and with its small
radius had gobs of ice attached to it. BUT my ELT antenna is made out of
a carbon composite with a Teflon or plastic coating and it had NO ice at
all on it.
In other words, the material for adherence is of utmost importance in
keeping ice off critical areas, thus the use of boots, heat (bleed air or
electric) and even a glycol spray ie TKS)
(It's real hard to change the radii of flight control surfaces without
effecting the performance).
The inboard leading edge had a poor quality paint on it (inspection doors
installed) and was very porous and seemed to attract the most ice in this
area even though it had the largest radius.
I believe NASA also pointed out that blunt areas (parasite drag, versus
induced) tend to gather more physical ice thus the increase in weight.
But as you mentioned the smaller radius areas are typically lift
producing airfoils which are more effected by build up in another way.
(more dramatic in its effect).
>It goes against my logic, but the leading edge thinking is that the smaller
>airfoils get contaminated to the point of stall, first.
This area is usually more critical to changing the airfoil dynamics, thus
angle of attack of the wing.
>It's one of those counter-intuitive aviation things.
>Wing Commander Gordon
Done extensive studies on rotor craft deicing (notice the wing area is
rotating) and the first indication is asymmetrical shedding. Real
interesting stuff especially from a camera viewpoint.
It too has a very small cross section (smaller radius) but we notice ice
buildup first on the fuselage due to it's slower speed thru the ice
cloud. If it's on the fuselage it's on the rotor.
One of my term papers back in college was titled "Alternative methods for
deicing modern aircraft using a positive charged ionized material while
bombarding it with Ultrasonic waves."
I'll spare you the technical details but it was a very interesting
subject.
My studies found that a positively charged (low voltage/current) array of
material (metal) bombarded with ultrasonic waves and modulated at various
frequencies would prohibit various types of ice (Clear, Rime, and Mixed)
from forming onto the surface regardless of temperature, radii and water
content. A very interesting project, I would have loved to patent it but
NASA/Goodyear had already filed for it and from their extensive tests
found the material costs to be too high.
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long) |
In a message dated 10/2/01 5:15:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
<< The NASA research in the wake of the Roselawn, IL. (The ATR-7 that crashed
after holding out side of O'Hare) revealed that the smaller the radius, the
greater potential for ice build up. >>
Good day Wing Commander!!! I was unfortunately employed at American Eagle
and was flying the Saab when the ATR crashed at Roselawn. I knew Captain
Orlando personally though. I had been in some recurrent classes with him.
I have been based in some pretty ugly places in my life. ST. Louis, Ohare,
JFK, etc. The basis of flying in ice is this. Don't do it if your not
getting paid (AND TRAINED!!!) to do it.
There is not a single piston twin out there, (Duke, C-421, A-685, ETC.) that
can do much more than hold it's own until you either get out of the ice, or
land. The most important thing is to keep the props and the windshield
clean. If you cant see, and you cant make any power your going to die!! I
would not press on in any icing conditions without HOT PROPS and a HOT
WINDSHIELD. You can always add 40 kts. to your appraoch speeds and fly the
apprch. with flaps up. (YES I SAID TOUCH DOWN AT OVER 115 KIAS!!!) If your
are carrying ice on the apprch and feel the nose pitch down violently you
have stalled the tail. Remove any flaps you were using and that should
restore the airflow over the tail and get it flying again. (Full Power right
now would be a good thing as well. The Rudders not stalled just the
Horizontal Stab.)
The Small Turbo Props do a little better, but not much. (I have over 5,000
hours in Turbo props of every description from a King air 90 up to the ATR-72)
I have been enroute before in a 30,000 pound SAAB 340 super B model that
could not maintain 14,000 ft. alt. because the icing was so bad. We had to
descend down to 11,000 ft. That airplane has almost 3,000 horse power, and is
certified to FL 310!!!!! Our precautionary descent was made at Take Off
Power, and flown at BLUE LINE, all while coming down at 300 ft./min. (We had
no choice!!)
Another time in a BAE Jetstream 3100 we started climbing up from 10,000 to
14,000 and tried to blow the boots and clear the ice at about 12,000. The
left wing inflated and all the ice came off. The Right Wing did NOTHING!!!!
It took full left aileron and half the rudder to hold the airplane upright
and straight while we went back down to 10,000 at T/O power and 10 KTS above
stall. That airplane weighed 15,500 and had almost 2,000 H.P.
Folks Ice will kill you faster than a thunderstorm, because it is insidious.
(I don't know I spelled that right, but it sneaks up on you!!)
If you are carrying a bunch of ice keep your speed up, at least 30 40 kts.
faster than you're used to. Keep the flaps up. This will produce the lowest
nose attitude for the flight path. If you slow down, and use the flaps the
nose will rise and even though you have full deice boots you will begin to
build ice on the bottom of the wing BEHIND THE BOOTS!!!!!!!
And that Ladies and Gentlemen is what killed my friend Captain Orlando in the
ATR-72 at Roselawn.
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long) |
In a message dated 10/03/01 10:44:44 Pacific Daylight Time, JET PAUL writes:
> If you slow down, and use the flaps the nose will rise and even though you
> have full deice boots you will begin to build ice on the bottom of the wing
> BEHIND THE BOOTS!!!!!!!
>
Paul,
Thank you for that most important contribution.
The fact of ice on the lower wing and belly is something I completely forgot
to address.
Beech (Raytheon) came out with a bulletin cautioning operators to maintain a
minimum en route speed of xxx (per model) to avoid ice on the bottom side of
the wings.
Morris Kernick, Bill Leff and I have all come to the conclusion that
Commanders ice up on the bellies where we never see it.
Paul, sorry you lost your friend in the Roselawn crash. If nothing else, it
launched an intensive research program and taught us about SLD (super large
droplets) and "run back" icing, hazards that were either unknown or under
appreciated.
An addendum -- missing on my list of what one needs for flight in icing was
the very obvious propeller de-ice. Thanks for that reminder, also.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Hmmm, I'd be interested in VG's if they were offered at, say, a price that compared
to flap gap seals....
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: TILLMAN333(at)aol.com
Cc: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: VGs
In a message dated 10/03/01 09:08:37 Pacific Daylight Time, TILLMAN333 writes:
I've never seen VG's on either Commanders or Aztecs.
There must be a good reason.
Gary,
That "good reason" depends on what side of the dollar equation you're on.
Mr. White of Micro Aerodynamics was very clear about the total numbers in the
fleet (potential sales) and the ratio of how many of those owners would likely
buy the kit.
He figured it takes 1/3 of the fleet to make it profitable, base on his previous
experience with 300 and 400 series Cessnas, along with the Beech 55 / 58 series.
Of course, if he's offering kits for the Husky, something's askew because we
have a lot more in our fleet than there are Aviat Huskies, (I think) and I'd hope
we're still a viable market.
Commander owners are mod crazy. Ask Gary Gadberrry. Ask the Service Centers
who put out the Renaissance Commanders.
Let me propose a very quick and dirty survey. How many of you on this list would
buy a VG kit for your Commander (or, if you don't own one yet, would buy
VGs when you do).
Next. How much would you pay to lower or eliminate Vmc, which ever is possible?
I think this info could be revealing to someone considering development of such
a kit.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long) |
Paul,
Well, if I wasn't scared to fly on the commuters before, I am now! I just
wanted to stress your last point about keeping your speed up. During climb,
especially in a slow going ice covered airplane, it is critical to keep your
speed up to avoid collecting ice behind the boots. A number of King Airs
have crashed within minutes of take off because of this problem. Many
turboprops have a published minimum icing speed. I don't know about the
older piston twins - in the 690's it is 140 knots indicated and even in the
690 if your above around 15,000 and fairly heavy, that's not a whole lot of
climb. I would be very careful trying to climb out of icing in a 500 -
turbo or not.
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long)
> In a message dated 10/2/01 5:15:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
>
> << The NASA research in the wake of the Roselawn, IL. (The ATR-7 that
crashed
> after holding out side of O'Hare) revealed that the smaller the radius,
the
> greater potential for ice build up. >>
>
>
> Good day Wing Commander!!! I was unfortunately employed at American Eagle
> and was flying the Saab when the ATR crashed at Roselawn. I knew Captain
> Orlando personally though. I had been in some recurrent classes with him.
>
> I have been based in some pretty ugly places in my life. ST. Louis,
Ohare,
> JFK, etc. The basis of flying in ice is this. Don't do it if your not
> getting paid (AND TRAINED!!!) to do it.
>
> There is not a single piston twin out there, (Duke, C-421, A-685, ETC.)
that
> can do much more than hold it's own until you either get out of the ice,
or
> land. The most important thing is to keep the props and the windshield
> clean. If you cant see, and you cant make any power your going to die!!
I
> would not press on in any icing conditions without HOT PROPS and a HOT
> WINDSHIELD. You can always add 40 kts. to your appraoch speeds and fly
the
> apprch. with flaps up. (YES I SAID TOUCH DOWN AT OVER 115 KIAS!!!) If
your
> are carrying ice on the apprch and feel the nose pitch down violently you
> have stalled the tail. Remove any flaps you were using and that should
> restore the airflow over the tail and get it flying again. (Full Power
right
> now would be a good thing as well. The Rudders not stalled just the
> Horizontal Stab.)
>
> The Small Turbo Props do a little better, but not much. (I have over
5,000
> hours in Turbo props of every description from a King air 90 up to the
ATR-72)
>
> I have been enroute before in a 30,000 pound SAAB 340 super B model that
> could not maintain 14,000 ft. alt. because the icing was so bad. We had
to
> descend down to 11,000 ft. That airplane has almost 3,000 horse power, and
is
> certified to FL 310!!!!! Our precautionary descent was made at Take Off
> Power, and flown at BLUE LINE, all while coming down at 300 ft./min. (We
had
> no choice!!)
>
> Another time in a BAE Jetstream 3100 we started climbing up from 10,000 to
> 14,000 and tried to blow the boots and clear the ice at about 12,000. The
> left wing inflated and all the ice came off. The Right Wing did
NOTHING!!!!
> It took full left aileron and half the rudder to hold the airplane upright
> and straight while we went back down to 10,000 at T/O power and 10 KTS
above
> stall. That airplane weighed 15,500 and had almost 2,000 H.P.
>
> Folks Ice will kill you faster than a thunderstorm, because it is
insidious.
> (I don't know I spelled that right, but it sneaks up on you!!)
>
> If you are carrying a bunch of ice keep your speed up, at least 30 40 kts.
> faster than you're used to. Keep the flaps up. This will produce the
lowest
> nose attitude for the flight path. If you slow down, and use the flaps
the
> nose will rise and even though you have full deice boots you will begin to
> build ice on the bottom of the wing BEHIND THE BOOTS!!!!!!!
>
> And that Ladies and Gentlemen is what killed my friend Captain Orlando in
the
> ATR-72 at Roselawn.
>
> Paul Reason
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long) |
Jeez Paul, between you & W/C Gordon, I may never fly in the wintertime
again! Your stories, while extremely educational, are chilling reminders
that we're just borrowing the sky for a little while when we fly, and
definitely do not own it!!!
I was nervous enough after a light rime ice encounter last winter...and that
lasted only for, oh, 17.2 miles ;-). Although I have everything required for
known icing (except for hot props as I replaced my AD-affected ones with the
new compact-hub props & didn't get the h/w for heating them), I'd just as
soon not ever test that equipment.....at least not for another 4- or 5,000
hours.
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long)
> In a message dated 10/2/01 5:15:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
>
> << The NASA research in the wake of the Roselawn, IL. (The ATR-7 that
crashed
> after holding out side of O'Hare) revealed that the smaller the radius,
the
> greater potential for ice build up. >>
>
>
> Good day Wing Commander!!! I was unfortunately employed at American Eagle
> and was flying the Saab when the ATR crashed at Roselawn. I knew Captain
> Orlando personally though. I had been in some recurrent classes with him.
>
> I have been based in some pretty ugly places in my life. ST. Louis,
Ohare,
> JFK, etc. The basis of flying in ice is this. Don't do it if your not
> getting paid (AND TRAINED!!!) to do it.
>
> There is not a single piston twin out there, (Duke, C-421, A-685, ETC.)
that
> can do much more than hold it's own until you either get out of the ice,
or
> land. The most important thing is to keep the props and the windshield
> clean. If you cant see, and you cant make any power your going to die!!
I
> would not press on in any icing conditions without HOT PROPS and a HOT
> WINDSHIELD. You can always add 40 kts. to your appraoch speeds and fly
the
> apprch. with flaps up. (YES I SAID TOUCH DOWN AT OVER 115 KIAS!!!) If
your
> are carrying ice on the apprch and feel the nose pitch down violently you
> have stalled the tail. Remove any flaps you were using and that should
> restore the airflow over the tail and get it flying again. (Full Power
right
> now would be a good thing as well. The Rudders not stalled just the
> Horizontal Stab.)
>
> The Small Turbo Props do a little better, but not much. (I have over
5,000
> hours in Turbo props of every description from a King air 90 up to the
ATR-72)
>
> I have been enroute before in a 30,000 pound SAAB 340 super B model that
> could not maintain 14,000 ft. alt. because the icing was so bad. We had
to
> descend down to 11,000 ft. That airplane has almost 3,000 horse power, and
is
> certified to FL 310!!!!! Our precautionary descent was made at Take Off
> Power, and flown at BLUE LINE, all while coming down at 300 ft./min. (We
had
> no choice!!)
>
> Another time in a BAE Jetstream 3100 we started climbing up from 10,000 to
> 14,000 and tried to blow the boots and clear the ice at about 12,000. The
> left wing inflated and all the ice came off. The Right Wing did
NOTHING!!!!
> It took full left aileron and half the rudder to hold the airplane upright
> and straight while we went back down to 10,000 at T/O power and 10 KTS
above
> stall. That airplane weighed 15,500 and had almost 2,000 H.P.
>
> Folks Ice will kill you faster than a thunderstorm, because it is
insidious.
> (I don't know I spelled that right, but it sneaks up on you!!)
>
> If you are carrying a bunch of ice keep your speed up, at least 30 40 kts.
> faster than you're used to. Keep the flaps up. This will produce the
lowest
> nose attitude for the flight path. If you slow down, and use the flaps
the
> nose will rise and even though you have full deice boots you will begin to
> build ice on the bottom of the wing BEHIND THE BOOTS!!!!!!!
>
> And that Ladies and Gentlemen is what killed my friend Captain Orlando in
the
> ATR-72 at Roselawn.
>
> Paul Reason
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
Okay,
I can't stand it! All of these tales of icing!
Commander Gordon, you are right....the tails stalls first!
You can accumulate enough ice in sixty seconds to knock a DC-9 out of the sky.
You just have to be at the wrong place at exactly the right time!!!!!
As a young co-pilot on a flight to MSP in a DC-9-10 (12-17-76....why do I remember
that date?) I encountered such a spot. We were on a nonstop flight from ATL
and were descending into MSP. The wx was 300 and 3/4 in snow. My 'Fearless Leader'
( read 'Dumb Shit' ) did not want to turn on any anti-ice during our 20,000
ft descent!
After MUCH protest from me he asked if I would be happy if he turned on the engine
anti-ice. I said "NO, but it would be a good start". As one is wont to do
during a descent at night, I would occasionally look out the window into the
night.
About sixty seconds after I had taken a look, I felt an ominous rumble in the airframe.
I immediately looked out the window and to my horror, I saw a chunk of
ice the size of a grapefruit on the bolt that attaches the windshield wiper
to the wiper arm. The area of the heated windshield that had NOT frozen over was
about the size of a football.
I said, " Oh shit, we're icing", and at the same time I turned on the wing anti
ice.
While I was turning on the anti ice, my 'Fearless Leader' shouted, "Good Lord,
what's happening?"
In my deep command voice I shrieked, "TAKEOFF POWER" while pushing the nose forward
and shoving the throttles to the radar unit. ( I tried to shove them through
the radar but they JUST WOULD NOT GO! )
By this time we had fallen 45 degrees off course and had lost 1,000 ft.
The stall occurred at 4,000 ft., we were configured with 20 degrees of flaps, and
at our weight, the stalling speed was 103 knots.
With FULL POWER the best we were able to do was 200 knots, and we were barely able
to keep it flying!!!!!!!!
The After Landing Inspection showed 3 inches of rime ice on the wing fence ( A
non-heated device to prevent spanwise airflow on a swept wing aircraft.) plus
a lot of accumulation on the airframe.
Gentlemen, this occurred in an aircraft approved for "Known Icing". (Albeit, there's
NO WAY to keep a 'Dumb Shit' from trying to kill you.)
The ominous rumble I felt was the tail stalling.
Bottom Line---DON"T FLY IN KNOWN ICING!-- If you are equipped with boots and prop
heat, they may save your life by letting you get away from the icing, but view
them as an EMERGENCY TOOL ONLY!
It only took SIXTY SECONDS to knock a DC-9 out of the sky!
Hmmmm.......I wonder if I was wearing one of Milt's shirts........:-)
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
I hope that the dumb shit's sorry ass got kicked into touch. If not by management,
then perhaps by you.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Crunkleton
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 3:37 PM
Subject: Icing
Okay,
I can't stand it! All of these tales of icing!
Commander Gordon, you are right....the tails stalls first!
You can accumulate enough ice in sixty seconds to knock a DC-9 out of the sky.
You just have to be at the wrong place at exactly the right time!!!!!
As a young co-pilot on a flight to MSP in a DC-9-10 (12-17-76....why do I remember
that date?) I encountered such a spot. We were on a nonstop flight from
ATL and were descending into MSP. The wx was 300 and 3/4 in snow. My 'Fearless
Leader' ( read 'Dumb Shit' ) did not want to turn on any anti-ice during our
20,000 ft descent!
After MUCH protest from me he asked if I would be happy if he turned on the engine
anti-ice. I said "NO, but it would be a good start". As one is wont to
do during a descent at night, I would occasionally look out the window into the
night.
About sixty seconds after I had taken a look, I felt an ominous rumble in the
airframe. I immediately looked out the window and to my horror, I saw a chunk
of ice the size of a grapefruit on the bolt that attaches the windshield wiper
to the wiper arm. The area of the heated windshield that had NOT frozen over
was about the size of a football.
I said, " Oh shit, we're icing", and at the same time I turned on the wing anti
ice.
While I was turning on the anti ice, my 'Fearless Leader' shouted, "Good Lord,
what's happening?"
In my deep command voice I shrieked, "TAKEOFF POWER" while pushing the nose forward
and shoving the throttles to the radar unit. ( I tried to shove them through
the radar but they JUST WOULD NOT GO! )
By this time we had fallen 45 degrees off course and had lost 1,000 ft.
The stall occurred at 4,000 ft., we were configured with 20 degrees of flaps,
and at our weight, the stalling speed was 103 knots.
With FULL POWER the best we were able to do was 200 knots, and we were barely
able to keep it flying!!!!!!!!
The After Landing Inspection showed 3 inches of rime ice on the wing fence (
A non-heated device to prevent spanwise airflow on a swept wing aircraft.) plus
a lot of accumulation on the airframe.
Gentlemen, this occurred in an aircraft approved for "Known Icing". (Albeit,
there's NO WAY to keep a 'Dumb Shit' from trying to kill you.)
The ominous rumble I felt was the tail stalling.
Bottom Line---DON"T FLY IN KNOWN ICING!-- If you are equipped with boots and
prop heat, they may save your life by letting you get away from the icing, but
view them as an EMERGENCY TOOL ONLY!
It only took SIXTY SECONDS to knock a DC-9 out of the sky!
Hmmmm.......I wonder if I was wearing one of Milt's shirts........:-)
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | The Clinton Administration's Security Legacy |
Click here:
http://www.andrewsullivan.com/text/main_articletext1.html>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | w.bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
My 500A is wired for hot props and has had the boots removed. I plan to remove
the cuffs on the props as it is weight I don't need.
As Crunk has stated it is important to be paid to do it and be in an airplane that
can handle it. In my case that means I will climb at 250k to 10,000 ft. and
340k to M.86 to altitude.
My icing program is a Master Card with a high enough limit to go to the Hilton
and have the Ice in the drinks.
bilbo, the wuss
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Crunkleton
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: Icing
Okay,
I can't stand it! All of these tales of icing!
Commander Gordon, you are right....the tails stalls first!
You can accumulate enough ice in sixty seconds to knock a DC-9 out of the sky.
You just have to be at the wrong place at exactly the right time!!!!!
As a young co-pilot on a flight to MSP in a DC-9-10 (12-17-76....why do I remember
that date?) I encountered such a spot. We were on a nonstop flight from
ATL and were descending into MSP. The wx was 300 and 3/4 in snow. My 'Fearless
Leader' ( read 'Dumb Shit' ) did not want to turn on any anti-ice during our
20,000 ft descent!
After MUCH protest from me he asked if I would be happy if he turned on the engine
anti-ice. I said "NO, but it would be a good start". As one is wont to
do during a descent at night, I would occasionally look out the window into the
night.
About sixty seconds after I had taken a look, I felt an ominous rumble in the
airframe. I immediately looked out the window and to my horror, I saw a chunk
of ice the size of a grapefruit on the bolt that attaches the windshield wiper
to the wiper arm. The area of the heated windshield that had NOT frozen over
was about the size of a football.
I said, " Oh shit, we're icing", and at the same time I turned on the wing anti
ice.
While I was turning on the anti ice, my 'Fearless Leader' shouted, "Good Lord,
what's happening?"
In my deep command voice I shrieked, "TAKEOFF POWER" while pushing the nose forward
and shoving the throttles to the radar unit. ( I tried to shove them through
the radar but they JUST WOULD NOT GO! )
By this time we had fallen 45 degrees off course and had lost 1,000 ft.
The stall occurred at 4,000 ft., we were configured with 20 degrees of flaps,
and at our weight, the stalling speed was 103 knots.
With FULL POWER the best we were able to do was 200 knots, and we were barely
able to keep it flying!!!!!!!!
The After Landing Inspection showed 3 inches of rime ice on the wing fence (
A non-heated device to prevent spanwise airflow on a swept wing aircraft.) plus
a lot of accumulation on the airframe.
Gentlemen, this occurred in an aircraft approved for "Known Icing". (Albeit,
there's NO WAY to keep a 'Dumb Shit' from trying to kill you.)
The ominous rumble I felt was the tail stalling.
Bottom Line---DON"T FLY IN KNOWN ICING!-- If you are equipped with boots and
prop heat, they may save your life by letting you get away from the icing, but
view them as an EMERGENCY TOOL ONLY!
It only took SIXTY SECONDS to knock a DC-9 out of the sky!
Hmmmm.......I wonder if I was wearing one of Milt's shirts........:-)
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | OpinionJournal - Best of the Web Today - October 3, 2001 |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Here, Here
My 39 years in the bigs tells me to second that.
rodd (wuss #2)
----- Original Message -----
From: w.bow
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: Icing
My 500A is wired for hot props and has had the boots removed. I plan to remove
the cuffs on the props as it is weight I don't need.
As Crunk has stated it is important to be paid to do it and be in an airplane
that can handle it. In my case that means I will climb at 250k to 10,000 ft.
and 340k to M.86 to altitude.
My icing program is a Master Card with a high enough limit to go to the Hilton
and have the Ice in the drinks.
bilbo, the wuss
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Crunkleton
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: Icing
Okay,
I can't stand it! All of these tales of icing!
Commander Gordon, you are right....the tails stalls first!
You can accumulate enough ice in sixty seconds to knock a DC-9 out of the sky.
You just have to be at the wrong place at exactly the right time!!!!!
As a young co-pilot on a flight to MSP in a DC-9-10 (12-17-76....why do I remember
that date?) I encountered such a spot. We were on a nonstop flight from
ATL and were descending into MSP. The wx was 300 and 3/4 in snow. My 'Fearless
Leader' ( read 'Dumb Shit' ) did not want to turn on any anti-ice during our
20,000 ft descent!
After MUCH protest from me he asked if I would be happy if he turned on the
engine anti-ice. I said "NO, but it would be a good start". As one is wont to
do during a descent at night, I would occasionally look out the window into
the night.
About sixty seconds after I had taken a look, I felt an ominous rumble in the
airframe. I immediately looked out the window and to my horror, I saw a chunk
of ice the size of a grapefruit on the bolt that attaches the windshield wiper
to the wiper arm. The area of the heated windshield that had NOT frozen over
was about the size of a football.
I said, " Oh shit, we're icing", and at the same time I turned on the wing
anti ice.
While I was turning on the anti ice, my 'Fearless Leader' shouted, "Good Lord,
what's happening?"
In my deep command voice I shrieked, "TAKEOFF POWER" while pushing the nose
forward and shoving the throttles to the radar unit. ( I tried to shove them
through the radar but they JUST WOULD NOT GO! )
By this time we had fallen 45 degrees off course and had lost 1,000 ft.
The stall occurred at 4,000 ft., we were configured with 20 degrees of flaps,
and at our weight, the stalling speed was 103 knots.
With FULL POWER the best we were able to do was 200 knots, and we were barely
able to keep it flying!!!!!!!!
The After Landing Inspection showed 3 inches of rime ice on the wing fence
( A non-heated device to prevent spanwise airflow on a swept wing aircraft.) plus
a lot of accumulation on the airframe.
Gentlemen, this occurred in an aircraft approved for "Known Icing". (Albeit,
there's NO WAY to keep a 'Dumb Shit' from trying to kill you.)
The ominous rumble I felt was the tail stalling.
Bottom Line---DON"T FLY IN KNOWN ICING!-- If you are equipped with boots and
prop heat, they may save your life by letting you get away from the icing, but
view them as an EMERGENCY TOOL ONLY!
It only took SIXTY SECONDS to knock a DC-9 out of the sky!
Hmmmm.......I wonder if I was wearing one of Milt's shirts........:-)
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 10/3/2001 6:57:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, w.bow(at)att.net
writes:
> My icing program is a Master Card with a high enough limit to go to the
>
Hey, you really are a Wuss. You haven't lived until you have full power on
with 15% nose up, a big old block of ice forming on the bottom of the wing
and descending 200 fpm. It is the sound of the ice smacking the fuselage
(with predictable improvements to your paint job) that I like the best!! I
also enjoy the whining sound the ice on the antennas makes. It is neat to
see that ice built up on the cowling aallmmosstt to the back of the spinner.
Trying to see the ground through that itsy bitsy little hole at the bottom of
the windshield right above the defroster (until the heater quits) is also a
real treat. Man, this make me want to jump in old triple 2 right now and go
"ice flying" Oh well, winter will be here before you know it. Sleep tight
jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Ebola-style killer virus sweeps Afghan border |
Ebola-style killer virus sweeps Afghan border
By Tim Butcher in Quetta
(Filed: 04/10/2001)
THE largest outbreak in history of a highly contagious disease that causes
patients to bleed to death from every orifice was confirmed yesterday on
Pakistan's frontier with Afghanistan.
At least 75 people have caught the disease so far and eight have died. An
isolation ward screened off by barbed wire has been set up in the Pakistani
city of Quetta, and an international appeal has been launched for help.
Evidence suggests the outbreak of Crimean-Congo Haemorrhagic Fever emanates
from within Afghanistan, raising fears of an epidemic if millions of refugees
flee across the frontier into Pakistan.
CCHF has similar effects to the ebola virus. Both viruses damage arteries,
veins and other blood vessels and lead to the eventual collapse of major
organs.
As one doctor put it, a patient suffering from haemorrhagic fever "literally
melts in front of your eyes".
At the Fatima Jinnah Chest and General Hospital in Quetta, capital of the
Pakistani province of Baluchistan, an isolation ward with eight treatment
beds and two observation bays has been set up.
Nine-year-old Ismail Sadiq lay on one of the beds yesterday, his body wracked
with fever and a wad of cotton wool stuffed into each nostril to stem the
bleeding.
Outside members of his family sat anxiously in the shade of a tree. An
elderly gentleman worked a string of worry beads through his fingers, but
doctors had forbidden all visits.
The only people Ismail now sees are doctors and nurses wearing the complete
"barrier nursing" outfit of sterilised hairnet, mask, gloves, gown and
overshoes.
Another patient, a 65-year-old man, lay inert on his bed, with streams of
dried blood on his chin, nose and tongue. His shirt was also stained heavily
with blood.
Dr Akhlaq Hussain, the hospital's medical superintendent, said: "The first
cases came in June. There were a number of deaths, but at first we did not
know what was the cause."
A number of blood samples were sent to Pakistan's national virology testing
centre in Islamabad. They were then sent to South Africa's National Institute
of Virology in Johannesburg for confirmation.
Dr Hussain said: "When the results came back we knew we were dealing with
Crimean-Congo Haemorrhagic Fever." He has compiled a list of all 75 cases,
which involved refugees recently arrived from Afghanistan or people living
close to the border.
The first known case of the disease was among Russian soldiers serving in the
Crimea in 1944 and then among villagers living near the Congolese city of
Kisangani in 1956. Not until 1969 were scientists able to isolate the single
virus common to both.
Although there have been a number of cases since, the outbreaks have never
been as large as the current one.
The doctor said: "We had our first case in Pakistan in the 1970s. It would
seem there is a reservoir of the virus in Afghanistan and we are now worried
about the possible effects of an influx of many new refugees.
"The virus is carried by domestic animals, and if they come in large numbers
with large numbers of animals we can expect many more cases."
The authorities in Pakistan have appealed to the World Health Organisation
for additional supplies to help deal with the outbreak, including storage
facilities for clean blood plasma and white blood cells which can be used to
replace those lost by patients.
The virus is widely distributed in the blood of sheep, cattle and other
mammals across eastern Europe, Asia and Africa. It can be passed to man by a
species of tick, Hyalomma marginatum, common in the same areas.
If caught in time, CCHF can be treated by replacing enough of the lost body
fluids to allow the patient's own immune system to take over and kill the
virus.
The facilities at Fatima Jinnah are basic, but the staff are dedicated and
brave, treating patients even though there is a high risk of infection from
spittle or blood.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Just goes to show.
Now I will forever carry my mastercard and get the ice in the right spinner.
Sleeep well. Just polished my scotch. There's some poor guy in the air right now
wishing he was here.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: w.bow(at)att.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: Icing
In a message dated 10/3/2001 6:57:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, w.bow(at)att.net
writes:
My icing program is a Master Card with a high enough limit to go to the Hilton
and have the Ice in the drinks.
Hey, you really are a Wuss. You haven't lived until you have full power on with
15% nose up, a big old block of ice forming on the bottom of the wing and
descending 200 fpm. It is the sound of the ice smacking the fuselage (with predictable
improvements to your paint job) that I like the best!! I also enjoy
the whining sound the ice on the antennas makes. It is neat to see that ice
built up on the cowling aallmmosstt to the back of the spinner. Trying to see
the ground through that itsy bitsy little hole at the bottom of the windshield
right above the defroster (until the heater quits) is also a real treat. Man,
this make me want to jump in old triple 2 right now and go "ice flying" Oh
well, winter will be here before you know it. Sleep tight jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
You are all wusses.
Richard L Collins flies his little single engine Cessna all the time. When he sees
ice he takes a video of it and sells the tape to Sporty's
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cableone.net <n414c(at)cableone.net> |
In fact I just sent the videos to little Crunk. Just imagine the trouble HE can
get into with ice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts |
Hey John!!!
Since you have full deice minus the hot props you might consider putting this
back the read again later files of your brain.
If you ever find yourself stuck between a rock and a hard place in icing
conditions, do what the old timers did. (HEY CRUNK REMEMBER THIS ONE???)
When you feel the airspeed falling off about 10-15 kts, blow the boots, then
take the props and ease them back to the minimum RPM you think the engine
will tolerate.
Then Violently slam them up to the full RPM stops. Do this as many times as
it takes to get the vibrations from the engines and props back down to
tolerable level.
This does to things. It breaks the ice at the base of the clamp / blade
assymbly, and it slings it off the prop due to acceleration and vibrations.
If you had all the other stuff on the plane turned on and working this would
get you on the ground in really bad Ice. Or at least that's what my dad told
me saved his life in a Queen Air one night over North Carolina. And he's
pretty fond of NO NAME BIG AL!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 10/3/01 6:56:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
crunk12(at)bellsouth.net writes:
<< Bottom Line---DON"T FLY IN KNOWN ICING!-- If you are equipped with boots
and prop heat, they may save your life by letting you get away from the
icing, but view them as an EMERGENCY TOOL ONLY!
It only took SIXTY SECONDS to knock a DC-9 out of the sky!
Hmmmm.......I wonder if I was wearing one of Milt's shirts........:-)
Crunk >>
And you guys thought only the little puddle jumpers would kill you!!??
Jim, the moral to your story is to turn the shit on, and then tell the dumb
shit to eat shit!! If he wants to debrief you about it, tell him you think
that would be a GREAT idea.......In the Chief Pilots Office!!!!!!
Folk's Jim is much wiser than I, and I bet most of you as well. The above is
for the etification of any body who might think the captain really is god.
You need to make him think he is god, without letting him act like god!!
(Remember Radar, on M.A.S.H., he really RAN the camp right!!!!!)
Any body want to go for ride with me and Crunk??? (There we were in the
pitch black at 31,000 ft. upside down, out of airspeed with all the engines
flamed out, and running out of ideas fast.) Thinking to
ourselves..........self, if we get out of this one I am going to have me a
great big glass of NO NAME!!!!!
Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: off topic personal note |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
>
> Chris,
> I am working on several projects for which government grants are available
> and they relate mostly to energy applications. I need to know real quick
> what you can bring to the table
Nico,
I'd be pleased to discuss any requirements you have. Since much of
our prior work has been in the energy industry, I might have something
of value for you. The short version is that we have an outstanding
group of individuals with a pretty broad background. We do a lot of
custom engineering work with data acquisition systems, communications,
measurement, sensor technology, etc. Although our web site isn't the
greatest (it tends to take a back-seat to actual work :-), it might
provide some insight for you.
http://www.c2-tech.com
Let me know what I can do
Chris Schuermann
918-582-3635
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Costa <globalmedconsulting(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | This ought to raise a few more comments....:-) |
Freight dogs and ice....
Icing needs to be respected, but certainly not feared. I have logged a
substantial amount for "icing time" in light twins...(Aerostars, Chieftons,
Barons, C-310 and Aero Commanders). Some were certified known ice, some
not. All however were equipped (boots, props (alcohol or heated) and
winshields (alcohol or heated).
Heavy icing levles are rarely more than a couple of thousand feet thick.
When entering icing more than moderate, climb FIRST. Know the aircraft POH
regarding ice protection and use it as recommended. Don't worry about the
windshield heat until it is needed. I prefer not to keep such a load on my
electrical system in these situations. KEEP THE AUTOPILOT OFF. (This was
part of the problem with the turbo-prop icing incidents). Stay calm.
After a great many flights hauling freight in these kind of conditions,
night single pilot IFR, in forcasted moderate to severe icing all over the
northern and northeastern US, I can tell you that short of heavy freezing
rain there is rarely a problem. We launch hundreds of flights each night in
all kinds of weather (both jet and prop) and have never had an ice related
accident. The company did have four fatalities since the 70's, all VFR!
Unless the aircraft you are flying has a supercritical flight surface (like
many jets), you would be amazed as to how much ice an aircraft can handle.
I agree with some of the earlier comments regarding airspeed during icing
conditions. Most important is angle of attack. Keep the ice protected
areas of the aircraft in a position that they will be able to work
effectively.
Each aircraft responds to icing a bit differently. The Aerostar slows down
10-20 kts. if you say "ice". The Baron and Aero Commander hardly miss a
beat... Know the aircraft and be smart. By all means if icing really
scares you, go fly in some icing with a pilot experienced in these
operations. It is a shame to not utilize a properly equipped aircraft.
Don't take unreasonable chances, but a professional pilot (or one who wishes
to act like one) should be appropriately capable to utilize all the of
capabilities of his aircraft. The day may come when you encounter these
conditions by accident...will you be prepared?
Think, stay calm, and FLY THE AIRPLANE.
Of course, now that I fly jets and people....we cancel or divert for all
kinds of "non-events"....:-)
Let the *%$# fly....
Regards,
David Costa
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Some Chilling Facts (caution: this is long)
> In a message dated 10/2/01 5:15:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
>
> << The NASA research in the wake of the Roselawn, IL. (The ATR-7 that
crashed
> after holding out side of O'Hare) revealed that the smaller the radius,
the
> greater potential for ice build up. >>
>
>
> Good day Wing Commander!!! I was unfortunately employed at American Eagle
> and was flying the Saab when the ATR crashed at Roselawn. I knew Captain
> Orlando personally though. I had been in some recurrent classes with him.
>
> I have been based in some pretty ugly places in my life. ST. Louis,
Ohare,
> JFK, etc. The basis of flying in ice is this. Don't do it if your not
> getting paid (AND TRAINED!!!) to do it.
>
> There is not a single piston twin out there, (Duke, C-421, A-685, ETC.)
that
> can do much more than hold it's own until you either get out of the ice,
or
> land. The most important thing is to keep the props and the windshield
> clean. If you cant see, and you cant make any power your going to die!!
I
> would not press on in any icing conditions without HOT PROPS and a HOT
> WINDSHIELD. You can always add 40 kts. to your appraoch speeds and fly
the
> apprch. with flaps up. (YES I SAID TOUCH DOWN AT OVER 115 KIAS!!!) If
your
> are carrying ice on the apprch and feel the nose pitch down violently you
> have stalled the tail. Remove any flaps you were using and that should
> restore the airflow over the tail and get it flying again. (Full Power
right
> now would be a good thing as well. The Rudders not stalled just the
> Horizontal Stab.)
>
> The Small Turbo Props do a little better, but not much. (I have over
5,000
> hours in Turbo props of every description from a King air 90 up to the
ATR-72)
>
> I have been enroute before in a 30,000 pound SAAB 340 super B model that
> could not maintain 14,000 ft. alt. because the icing was so bad. We had
to
> descend down to 11,000 ft. That airplane has almost 3,000 horse power, and
is
> certified to FL 310!!!!! Our precautionary descent was made at Take Off
> Power, and flown at BLUE LINE, all while coming down at 300 ft./min. (We
had
> no choice!!)
>
> Another time in a BAE Jetstream 3100 we started climbing up from 10,000 to
> 14,000 and tried to blow the boots and clear the ice at about 12,000. The
> left wing inflated and all the ice came off. The Right Wing did
NOTHING!!!!
> It took full left aileron and half the rudder to hold the airplane upright
> and straight while we went back down to 10,000 at T/O power and 10 KTS
above
> stall. That airplane weighed 15,500 and had almost 2,000 H.P.
>
> Folks Ice will kill you faster than a thunderstorm, because it is
insidious.
> (I don't know I spelled that right, but it sneaks up on you!!)
>
> If you are carrying a bunch of ice keep your speed up, at least 30 40 kts.
> faster than you're used to. Keep the flaps up. This will produce the
lowest
> nose attitude for the flight path. If you slow down, and use the flaps
the
> nose will rise and even though you have full deice boots you will begin to
> build ice on the bottom of the wing BEHIND THE BOOTS!!!!!!!
>
> And that Ladies and Gentlemen is what killed my friend Captain Orlando in
the
> ATR-72 at Roselawn.
>
> Paul Reason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ice wusses photos |
I thought I would send out a couple of photos on one of my adventures
from CA to MN.
Enclosed ice shots. Rear of Engine Nacelle and Prop.
Randy
n414c(at)cableone.net said:
>You are all wusses.
>Richard L Collins flies his little single engine Cessna all the time. When
>he sees ice he takes a video of it and sells the tape to Sporty's
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some Chilling Facts |
Paul,
Thanks for the advice! I'll for sure file that one away, hopefully never to
be used. Remember, I'll be in the Hilton buying Bilbo a drink...
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To:
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: Some Chilling Facts
> Hey John!!!
>
> Since you have full deice minus the hot props you might consider putting
this
> back the read again later files of your brain.
> If you ever find yourself stuck between a rock and a hard place in icing
> conditions, do what the old timers did. (HEY CRUNK REMEMBER THIS ONE???)
>
> When you feel the airspeed falling off about 10-15 kts, blow the boots,
then
> take the props and ease them back to the minimum RPM you think the engine
> will tolerate.
> Then Violently slam them up to the full RPM stops. Do this as many times
as
> it takes to get the vibrations from the engines and props back down to
> tolerable level.
>
> This does to things. It breaks the ice at the base of the clamp / blade
> assymbly, and it slings it off the prop due to acceleration and
vibrations.
>
> If you had all the other stuff on the plane turned on and working this
would
> get you on the ground in really bad Ice. Or at least that's what my dad
told
> me saved his life in a Queen Air one night over North Carolina. And he's
> pretty fond of NO NAME BIG AL!!!!
>
> Paul Reason
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Slamming throttles |
I hate to think of what that will do to the gearbox on the 680FL with IGSO540 engines
!
> When you feel the airspeed falling off about 10-15 kts, blow the boots,
then
> take the props and ease them back to the minimum RPM you think the engine
> will tolerate.
> Then Violently slam them up to the full RPM stops. Do this as many times
as
> it takes to get the vibrations from the engines and props back down to
> tolerable level.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: This ought to raise a few more comments....:-) |
THANKS DAVE.........
Good comments. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Slamming throttles |
In a message dated 10/4/2001 1:10:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
> I hate to think of what that will do to the gearbox on the 680FL with
> IGSO540 engins.
Or my GSO-480s!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | garyloff <n27kb(at)erols.com> |
I expect to have the flight portion of the VG STC accomplished in the next month
or two. We had started some time ago but got side tracked. I will keep you all
informed.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Tylor Hall
To: Cableone.net ; Commander Tech Chat
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 9:25 AM
Subject: RE: VGs
Milt,
I saw a Twin Commander 500B in Alaska about 10 years ago that had VG strips on
the wing and tail.
It also had a leading edge cuff and Roberson style STOL kit on it.
I was told it could do amazing on short field take off.
I do not remember the N number or who owned it.
I think that stall speed and VMC were about the same.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Cableone.net [mailto:n414c(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 6:52 AM
To: Commander Tech Chat
Subject: VGs
Any experience with or info about VGs and ice accumulation aft of the leading
edge?
Any VGs on aerocommanders?
What is effect of aft CG loading relative to tailplane stall in icing?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Wusses and Emergencies |
CommanderLand:
You gentlemen are a lot braver than me. I somehow grew up with this idea
that emergencies were for the simulator ONLY. Maybe that is why I never
had any, but I am thankful of the fact.
I have had a great deal of fun playing with emergencies in the Simulator,
I have done a 90 Kt. direct crosswind landing at ORL in a DC-9, a double
flameout landing with a 3K ceiling, once again in a DC-9, a manual
reversion single engine landing with a 300 ft ceiling and a 747 on the
runway when past the commit point. But all these were practice emergencies
in a simulator where they belong.
I have always felt that the 'real good' pilots should have the real
emergencies and let the rest of us "wusses" just fly safe and grow old.
Don
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | OpinionJournal - Best of the Web Today - October 4, 2001 |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Slamming throttles |
Tom,
http://www.commandergroup.bc.ca/links.html
Nice web page with your 500B on it.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher [mailto:tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 3:01 PM
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Slamming throttles
I hate to think of what that will do to the gearbox on the 680FL with
IGSO540 engines !
> When you feel the airspeed falling off about 10-15 kts, blow the boots,
then
> take the props and ease them back to the minimum RPM you think the engine
> will tolerate.
> Then Violently slam them up to the full RPM stops. Do this as many times
as
> it takes to get the vibrations from the engines and props back down to
> tolerable level.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Gary,
Which Twin Commanders are you using??
Will the STC be available for all Twin Commanders???
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: garyloff [mailto:n27kb(at)erols.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 6:06 PM
To: Tylor Hall; Cableone.net; Commander Tech Chat
Subject: Re: VGs
I expect to have the flight portion of the VG STC accomplished in the next
month or two. We had started some time ago but got side tracked. I will keep
you all informed.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Tylor Hall <mailto:tylorh(at)sound.net>
To: Cableone.net ; Commander Tech Chat
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 9:25 AM
Subject: RE: VGs
Milt,
I saw a Twin Commander 500B in Alaska about 10 years ago that had VG strips
on the wing and tail.
It also had a leading edge cuff and Roberson style STOL kit on it.
I was told it could do amazing on short field take off.
I do not remember the N number or who owned it.
I think that stall speed and VMC were about the same.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Cableone.net [mailto:n414c(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 6:52 AM
To: Commander Tech Chat
Subject: VGs
Any experience with or info about VGs and ice accumulation aft of the
leading edge?
Any VGs on aerocommanders?
What is effect of aft CG loading relative to tailplane stall in icing?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Taliban jet drops cluster-bombs |
Taliban jet drops cluster-bombs in show of strength
The Independent
October 5, 2001
In what may be the opening shots of the war in Afghanistan, a silver-coloured
Taliban jet screeched through the sky and released two cluster bombs. Just
missing some mud-brick houses, they exploded in a field, spraying hundreds of
steel balls in all directions.
The attack at noon yesterday by the MiG fighter-bomber on the opposition-held
town of Charicar, in the front line 40 miles north of the Afghan capital
Kabul, was a clear warning from the Taliban government to its enemies. It
showed that it still has teeth and is prepared to use them.
If the bombs, taken from old Soviet stockpiles going by Russian markings on
the casing, had been released a few seconds later they would have landed in
Charicar's packed street market and killed hundreds of people.
As the MiG passed overhead, General Babajan, the commander of 2,000 Northern
Alliance soldiers at Bagram airport, was in the wrecked control tower talking
to a group of journalists. One end of the airport is held by his men and the
other by the Taliban.
Just after the bombs exploded, General Babajan rushed out on to a balcony on
the top floor of the control tower and pointed to rising smoke at the foot of
the mountains. He said in a surprised tone: "This hasn't happened before."
Perhaps equally surprised were his anti-aircraft gunners, who had no time to
fire at the jet.
The Taliban have a small airforce, its planes inherited from the old
Soviet-backed government. But its aircraft are mainly used for tactical air
support for its ground troops and only occasionally against civilians. The
jets have not been in action anywhere in the last four days.
Searching for the place where the bombs had landed, I drove back from Bagram,
through half-deserted mud-brick villages close to the front line, to the
battered town of Charicar. This has changed hands a number of times in
battles over the past few years. The buildings on its outskirts are
pockmarked with bullet holes and scorched by blast damage.
On a road beside a canal we stopped at a small shop to ask if they had seen
where the bombs had fallen. An excited 10-year-old boy called Idi Mohammed
said he had seen them both, one detonating on impact and the other half an
hour later.
This is not the first time the Taliban have used MiGs to attack this area,
but they have not used cluster bombs before. Idi Mohammed, as he showed us
the way to the craters, said: "A bomb landed close to my brother six months
ago and damaged his brain, so now he is crazy."
After driving over several watercourses, we saw the craters beyond some
long-abandoned Russian military vehicles. Around the main craters were
smaller ones and hundreds of shiny steel balls glinting in the dust showing
that cluster bombs had been used.
Possibly the Taliban pilot had aimed at some buildings a mile away that
looked like fortified barracks. If so, cluster bombs, which are designed to
kill human targets standing in the open, were a strange weapon to use.
Whatever the target, Kabul had clearly decided to send a message to its
enemies that the Taliban would not give up without a fight.
There are increasing signs of military preparations in this opposition
stronghold at the end of the Panjshir valley. More young men armed with
sub-machine guns are in the streets as reserves are called up. As we drove to
find the bomb craters, a truck with multiple rocket launchers in the back
speedily passed us on its way to the front.
General Babajan said that both he and the Taliban had brought up
reinforcements to the front. In Afghanistan, the frontline usually consists
of thinly-held forward positions with more troops stationed further back
waiting to counter-attack against any breakthrough. Northern Alliance
commanders say they are waiting for the US air assault to start before
launching an offensive. If they do attack it is unlikely to be a direct
assault on Kabul, which would be over-ambitious given their limited military
strength. A more probable option is an attack on the town of Taleqon, in the
far north, where Taliban supply lines are over-stretched.
But as the bombing run demonstrated, until the US air attack starts, Kabul
has control of the skies and still has the means to punish its enemies.
END
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wusses and Emergencies |
I agree with you Don, but maybe these guys are the 'real good' pilots. I
mean they are still around, aren't they?
But then again, what do I know? I am just a blonde.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Girod" <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
To: "TCFG"
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 8:47 PM
Subject: Wusses and Emergencies
> CommanderLand:
> You gentlemen are a lot braver than me. I somehow grew up with this idea
> that emergencies were for the simulator ONLY. Maybe that is why I never
> had any, but I am thankful of the fact.
> I have had a great deal of fun playing with emergencies in the Simulator,
> I have done a 90 Kt. direct crosswind landing at ORL in a DC-9, a double
> flameout landing with a 3K ceiling, once again in a DC-9, a manual
> reversion single engine landing with a 300 ft ceiling and a 747 on the
> runway when past the commit point. But all these were practice
emergencies
> in a simulator where they belong.
> I have always felt that the 'real good' pilots should have the real
> emergencies and let the rest of us "wusses" just fly safe and grow old.
> Don
>
> --- Lowell Girod
> --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
> --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john williams <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net> |
Guys
After going for a ride with me in my 560A a buddy of mine is looking at a 1958
680 that's for sale here in florida. I know the airframe is the same as mine(except
for the larger fuel tanks) but how about the engines? I know they're a larger
supercharged 340hp version of mine. How much of a problem does the supercharging
cause in those engines? He is also going to have to face an auto pilot
problem. There is not one in there now. I called s-tec for him today. They have
no STC for a straight 680. They might not even have anything that will go
in there.
Thanks
John Williams--Fla. Keys
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
> john williams wrote:
> I know they're a larger supercharged 340hp version of mine.
> How much of a problem does the supercharging cause in those engines?
> He is also going to have to face an auto pilot problem. There is not
> one in there now.
John,
The supercharged engines seem to provide much better service than
one might at first expect. The supercharger section doesn't get
toasted like turbos do. As long as it doesn't get FOD, it holds
up well. I assume that a new impeller would be rather expensive,
but I've never heard of anyone needing to purchase one so I can't
say for sure. I think the GO-480 line in general are exceptional
engines. I hang one on my VIking if they were still in production :-)
The only AP that I know of for the 680 is the Brittain. They are
still in production last I heard. Fairly simple device but
functional.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Feminist's anti-U.S. speech causes uproar |
This is outrageous!!! All the "ladies" that attended this speech should be
under watch by the FBI - that the very least! And where did this Canadian
head-of-state come from? No wonder terrorists find Canada so appealing!
Feminist's anti-U.S. speech causes uproar
Hedy Fry jeered by opposition for sitting silent
Peter O'Neil
Vancouver Sun
Tuesday, October 02, 2001
Canadian Press files / Sunera Thobani, shown in a 1994 photo, said Monday
that recent terrorist attacks pale in comparison to U.S. aggression.
Fred Chartrand, Canadian Press / Hedy Fry says in Ottawa Monday she was
'disgusted with the rant by Sunera Thobani.'
OTTAWA -- A B.C. feminist told a cheering audience here that the United
States government is more threatening to the world than international
terrorism.
Sunera Thobani received several standing ovations from about 500 delegates
attending the Women's Resistance Conference on Monday.
Her comments caused a political uproar, with opposition MPs condemning
Secretary of State Hedy Fry for sitting silently as Thobani spoke. MPs called
on the government to fire Fry, charging that she should have immediately
condemned Thobani's statements.
"Today in the world the United States is the most dangerous and the most
powerful global force unleashing horrific levels of violence," said Thobani,
a women's studies professor at the University of British Columbia and former
head of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women.
"From Chile to El Salvador to Nicaragua to Iraq, the path of U.S. foreign
policy is soaked in blood."
Thobani said she empathizes with the human suffering following the Sept. 11
terror attacks in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania that left more than
6,000 people dead or missing. "But do we feel any pain for the victims of
U.S. aggression?"
In an interview with The Vancouver Sun Monday night, Thobani said her
comments were directed at George Bush, not the American people.
"I made a 40-minute speech. I provided a contest for those comments. I was
basically advocating an end to war," she said.
"If America wants to lead this war, then I'm against American foreign
policy."
In her speech, Thobani also ridiculed any suggestion that the U.S. would be
advancing women's rights by ousting Afghanistan's Taliban regime, which has
forbidden women from working, attending school, or showing their faces in
public.
"It's really interesting to hear this talk about saving Afghani women," she
said. "Those of us who have been colonized know what this saving means."
The Tanzanian-born Thobani became the first non-white president of the NAC in
1993, a position she held until 1996.
As the outspoken leader of the NAC, Thobani created much controversy when she
said in 1995 that only white, middle-class women had benefited from the
feminist movement.
Monday she said women will never be emancipated until the U.S. and the West
stop dominating the world.
"The West for 500 years has believed that it could slaughter people into
submission and it has not been able to do so. And it will not be able to so
this time, either."
After Thobani's speech, opposition MPs said Fry, the Chretien government's
secretary of state for multiculturalism and the status of women, who also
delivered a speech at the conference and was on the podium while Thobani
spoke, should have sent an immediate message that the speech went too far.
"She should apologize to Canadians and our American cousins for not
condemning these comments and walking out on this insulting and inflammatory
speech," said Chuck Strahl, deputy leader of the Tory-Democratic
Representative coalition.
New Democratic Party leader Alexa McDonough, whose party was once a close
ally of NAC's, said Fry should have offered "an unequivocal rejection of the
kind of cheap sloganeering, of the excessive rhetoric.
"This is a time to be building tolerance, to be building bridges, not to
create greater divisions," McDonough said.
Fry defended freedom of speech within Canada, but said she didn't applaud and
immediately left the event after Thobani spoke.
"I condemn that speech," the Vancouver Centre MP told jeering opposition MPs.
"I thought the speech that was made by the expert of NAC to be incitement."
Opposition MPs said Fry, who wrongly portrayed Prince George as a haven for
cross-burning racists earlier this year, has made one too many blunders and
must be fired.
"The history of this minister is not a very happy one and I think it is time
for a change," said Canadian Alliance leader Stockwell Day.
McDonough said Fry doesn't have the credibility to travel across Canada and
speak publicly against intolerance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Feminist's anti-U.S. speech causes uproar - part II |
This is an excerpt taken from an Op Ed rebuttal in the same Canadian
newspaper. I feel a little better, but not much.
There is no doubt that the US made some foreign-policy choices in the 1980s
that have since come back to haunt it, notably supporting Iraq's Saddam
Hussein against Iran, and the mujaheddin against the invading Soviets in
Afghanistan.
But from there to suggest that America's hands are soaked in blood, or that
it is the most dangerous force in the world, is simply odious.
But wait, there's more. Thobani wondered who felt the pain of "the victims of
U.S. aggression."
The victims of aggression are precisely the women of Afghanistan who suffer
under the unspeakable cruelties of the Taliban theocracy, a tyrannical and
repressive regime that publicly executes women in soccer stadiums.
Who is speaking up for them? Not the women at the Ottawa conference, dripping
with a sanctimonious sense of Canadian superiority.
Such offensive smugness could only be found in a country such as ours, which
has lived for a half a century under the security blanket of the United
States, which also buys half of everything we produce in the private sector.
The Americans don't need or deserve to hear, at a conference funded by
government ($80,000) and attended by a minister of the crown, that their
hands are soaked in blood.
Unfortunately, there appears to be a constituency for this intellectual
garbage, at conferences attended by the radical left, at town halls staged by
the CBC and on campuses such as Concordia University - all funded by
taxpayers.
Fortunately, Canada and the U.S., unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, encourage such
dissent among our fundamental freedoms of speech.
Bad Taste
We even encourage free speech when it is demonstrably misinformed and
repulsively in bad taste. But as an American judge once observed, freedom of
speech does not extend to yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.
Of course, what happened in New York and in Washington can never happen here,
and if it did we would expect the Americans to come to our aid. We would be
outraged if they said that, in our smugness, we got what we deserved.
Can't happen here? This just in from France, where Le Monde has reported on
the trial of 24 members of one of Osama bin Laden's terrorist cells. The
incriminating evidence includes the details of a chilling plan to explode a
bomb on each of Montreal's mtro lines if terrorist demands were not met. The
plot, now confirmed by Montreal police, was apparently foiled only with the
arrests.
These are the bad guys. They murder thousands of innocent people. They have
experimented with biological terror. And if they could get their hands on
nuclear weapons, they would use them. Whereupon, in the warped logic of moral
equivalency, it would be the fault of the U.S. for inventing them in the
first place.
- L. Ian MacDonald's e-mail address is imacdonald(at)generation.net.
Copyright 2001Montreal Gazette
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BBC1024(at)aol.com <BBC1024(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Feminist's anti-U.S. speech causes uproar - part III |
SEARCH RESULTS - STORY
Free speech in a pristine vacuum
Pete McMartin
Vancouver Sun
Wednesday, October 03, 2001
Sunera Thobani at the conference where she made her speech.
In wake of The Speech, the brave soldiers of UBC were taking to the ivory
towers Tuesday, manning the ramparts to beat back the infidels who had come
calling for the head of Sunera Thobani.
Ms. Thobani -- who you have doubtless heard of by now -- is the excitable
former chair of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women, and an
assistant professor of women's studies at UBC, which is to say, she is --
excuse me for a moment, I've got something stuck in my craw -- a "public
servant." Ptui.
Thobani, I was informed by the UBC media relations folk, is on "tenure-track"
-- working her way toward a coveted full professorship and all the privileges
that come with it, including a really good parking spot and a lifetime supply
of graduate students to polish your apples.
It was not in her capacity as a UBC assistant professor, however, that
Thobani delivered The Speech to a convention of feminists in Ottawa Monday.
But then I can't be sure, either, if it was in her capacity as former chair
of the NAC. The NAC women, still spinning in the wake of The Speech, are now
quietly trying to put as much distance between themselves and Thobani as they
decently can -- or as one flak-catcher for them carefully said to me of one
Thobani's more wingnut ravings:
"That wouldn't be our analysis of the situation, no."
She was referring to The Nutty Professor's demonization of Western culture,
and her estimation of its culpabilities for our post-September 11 world, of
which she said:
"There will be no emancipation for women anywhere on this planet until the
Western domination of this planet is ended."
Of course, Thobani uttered other insights, including this:
"This new fight, this new war against terrorism, that is being launched, it's
very old. And it is a very old fight of the West against the rest."
Which she then topped with this fatuity:
"The West for 500 years has believed that it could slaughter people into
submission and it has not been able to do so. It will not be able to do so
this time, either."
All this, of course, she wrapped up in the usual lefty cant about
"blood-soaked" U.S. foreign policy -- a line of thought that asserts "They
got what they deserved."
This was not to say, she assured everyone, that she wasn't really, really
sorry about all those dead people. Hey, she thought about them every day.
Every day!
"But do we feel any pain," she asked, "for the victims of U.S. aggression?"
Nothing new here. We've been hearing this sly, and sick, linkage from our
terrorist apologists ever since September 11, who clothe their real intent
under a cloak of empathy -- "Gee, I really feel horrible about all those
innocent people who died ..." -- and then throw back that cloak to reveal the
"but" underneath.
Loathsome.
But it takes all kinds. And with apologies to Voltaire, I may not agree with
what a nutcase believes, but I will defend to the death a nutcase's right to
say it.
Still, one has to wonder why Thobani is even here. I mean, why is she here,
in the West she so apparently loathes? This isn't a rhetorical "Love It or
Leave It" chest-thump: This is an honest-to-goodness question, because I am
truly baffled.
If Thobani does indeed believe the West is responsible for, as she sees it,
the enslavement of all women, then why does she remain in the bosom of
Western culture?
September 20, 2001 - October 04, 2001
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-af