Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ai
November 24, 2001 - December 12, 2001
The 680FP and 680FLP both have a hydraulicly-driven "cabin supercharger"
which provides pressurization. A pump on the engine drives the
compressor which is mounted in the aft fuselage area. Some of these
airplanes have been converted from the IGSO-540 engines to IO-720
400hp direct drive Lycomings. Along with that conversion, the
pressurization system was changed to a "bleed air" system off the
engine turbochargers (dual RayJay).
As far as the cabin sealing, I can't think of anything other than
the normal stuff that goes along with any pressurized airplane. Just
the maze of seals, control boots, etc that tend to leak...
All manuals can be acquired directly from TCAC (Twin Commander
Aircraft Corp).
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Cape Pilots die in Shrike crash |
As this ditching came soon after mine I looked deeply into it.
the aircraft was not recovered but the two deceased women were.
The was no conclusion made as to why their Commander went down.
There is a web site devoted to them with links to various sources of news information.
http://www.gwenandbarbflyroundtheworld.com/
Tom..
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:39
Subject: Cape Pilots die in Shrike crash
FYI.
It happened earlier this year. Anyone with news as to what went wrong?
Cape pilots die in crash
By EMILY C. DOOLEY
STAFF WRITER
Two Provincetown women who had just begun a trip around the world died yesterday
when the plane they were piloting plunged into the North Atlantic Ocean off
the coast of Iceland.
Provincetown pilots Barbara Gard, 52, left, a former Marine and retired
National Guard major, and Gwen Bloomingdale, 58, a retired Boston attorney,
died yesterday when the plane they were piloting, shown in the background of the
top photo, crashed off the coast of Iceland. Investigators do not have an initial
idea of why the plane crashed 40 minutes after takeoff from Keflavik Airport
near Reykjavik.
(Staff file photo by VINCENT DEWITT)
Read the Cape Cod Times feature story last year on the pair.
The bodies of Barbara Gard, 52, and Gwen Bloomingdale, 58, were pulled from
of the crash has not been determined.
"The flying conditions were not so good but there is no indication of what caused
this accident," said Duty Officer Jon Bjornsson. "There is no clear indication
of why this happened."
Fishing boats, coast guard vessels and helicopters began searching the area
after the twin-engine 1973 Rockwell Aero Commander Shrike disappeared off radar
screens at 15,000 feet at 8:55 a.m., just 40 minutes after taking off from Keflavik
Airport.
Crewmen aboard the ferry Herjolfur first spotted suitcases and clothing eight
miles off the coast of the Westmann Islands late in the afternoon. Two small
coast guard vessels found the remains of Gard and Bloomingdale among scattered
debris shortly thereafter, said Omar Oskarsson, a reporter with the Icelandic
newspaper Morgunbladid.
The two left Provincetown Municipal Airport Thursday to begin a yearlong trip
around the world. Bloomingdale, a retired Boston attorney, and Gard, a former
Marine and retired National Guard major, operated the flightseeing company Willie
Air Tours out of Florida and Provincetown.
Together they had some 30 years' flying experience and more than 3,000 flight
hours. Gard, a certified airframe and power plant mechanic as well as a pilot,
had two previous accidents. In 1996, she splashed her plane into Ryder Pond
in Chatham and walked away with barely an injury after an engine failure. Two
years later, she landed a plane on its belly in Provincetown after she reportedly
forgot to put down the landing gear.
Pair en route to London
At the time of yesterday's accident, the pair had been making their way to London
for the start of the Sydney Air Race 2001, a trek that stretches across
Europe, Africa and Asia before ending in Sydney, Australia. The race is expected
to begin Sunday.
After leaving Provincetown Thursday, the pair had made stops in Maine and Greenland.
On Monday, they left Greenland and headed to Keflavik, about 40 miles
west of Iceland's capital city, Reykjavik. A brief stop in Scotland was planned
before Gard and Bloomingdale were scheduled to land in London.
The 28-day race is a celebration of Australia's 100th year as a federation.
Friends said Gard and Bloomingdale were thrilled to be part of the adventure.
"They had dreams of flying over the Taj Mahal," said friend Gerry Desautels.
"They dared to do something most of us only dream about. I regret they couldn't
be a part of the race. It's life cut short too soon."
Bjornsson said the coast guard will continue searching for other debris and
the flight recorder, known as the black box. Friends are not sure if the plane
was equipped with such a device but are hopeful a reason for the crash will be
found.
"I'm not believing it's real," said friend P.J. Layng. "I was leaving tomorrow
to join them. We had a big party planned. I'm just sick over it."
Search conditions treacherous
Strong ocean currents, rough seas and wind gusts made the search effort treacherous,
and conditions are not expected to get better, Bjornsson said.
The northeaster that has been pummeling New England and stirring up the North
Atlantic is typical Icelandic weather, said Tom Berman, a Buzzards Bay resident
who travels frequently to Iceland and was stationed at Keflavik Naval Air
Station.
"It's very cold, inhospitable," Berman said. "You can get some weather that
will pop up in an instant and there is nowhere to go."
Gard and Bloomingdale were one of two teams with Cape Cod roots entered in the
Sydney Air Race 2001.
Jean Turnbull of Cummaquid is part of the team known as the Sky Trekkers. Turnbull
flew her plane to London weeks ago because she did not know how long the
crossing would take or if weather would be cooperative, team member Priscilla
Myers said from her New Jersey home last night.
After returning to the Cape to finish preparations, Turnbull ran into Gard and
Bloomingdale last week at Barnstable Municipal Airport and wished the Provincetown
duo well. She told them about weather she encountered during her Atlantic
crossing, Myers said.
True aviators
Gard and Bloomingdale were particularly excited about their trip because they
were hoping to share their experience with relatives. They pledged to carry
a laptop computer and satellite cellular phone so that they could post pictures
and journal entries online. Their grandchildren in Rockport and Dallas were
going to follow the journey with their classrooms. Provincetown students also
were planning to follow the race.
"They were very open and generous and wanted to share the experience. It was
literally the trip of a lifetime for some of these family members," Desautels
said.
Bloomingdale spent many years on the airport commission and resigned her post
as Provincetown representative to the Cape Cod Commission to plan her journey
around the world. After two years of preparation, the last two months were especially
busy getting everything in order.
"They were very excited and headed for what they hoped to be the time of their
lives," said airport director Arthur Butch Lisenby. "It's very hard to believe,
very hard to believe."
"They were true aviators," Desautels said.
Services will be held at a later date at the Unitarian Universalist Meeting
House in Provincetown.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Howdy y'all.
Just a reminder that you might want to be listed on the
Commander owners registry on the web site. It's nice to be
able to track down other Commander owners as you travel
around the country.... (especially if you have any problems!)
I keep a copy of the list in the airplane with me...
To be added to the list, just drop me an email with the info
you'd like (chris@c2-tech.com) and I'll make the updates.
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
So........You're saying that it was Yoda, the salesman with a 500A, speaking
with a slick tongue???????:)
bilbo
Subject: Re: Gear or not
> "w.bow" wrote:
> >
> > Yoda told me if you want to get a "G" engine overhauled, there are about
3
> > places in the U.S. that will do it. And you had better bring one of
those
> > $40.000.00 bills with you for each one.
>
> Far be it for me to ever contradict Yoda, but there are more than
> 3 places just here in Tulsa that do geared engines.... Basic OH
> cost on a GO435/GO480 is $18k-24k....
>
> chris
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kristian Meszaros <KMeszaros(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Dear Kerry:
Forgot about the IO-720 conversion:
This was by Mr. RPM (Bob McCoon), replacing the IGSO540 engines and the
hydraulic supercharger and the 3000 psi hydraulics with 8 cylinder IO720B1BD
engines (using dual mags) with two rayjay turbos per engine supplying cabin
bleed air, and a freon compressor for the cabin cooling. The engines are
almost bulletproof, but there is no practical gain in performance, as the
original geared installation had a very efficient propeller installation
(77:120 gearing)
The best investment for the IGSO540 would be a good engine analyzer, with
EGT and CHT for every cylinder.
Also, the original models ran the aircraft utility hydraulic ssystem at 1200
psi (same system as the unpressurized planes) through a pressure regulator
from the main system. Remember, everything hydraulic was skydrol, so every
seal was different from the normal unpressurized installations (viton
elastomer instead of Buna-n)
Thanks for reviving memories!!!
Best Regards,
Kris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
To: "'Commander Chat'"
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 1:20 PM
Subject: Newbie
>
> Hi folks,
>
> My name is Kerry Johnson, I'm an electrical contractor living in St.
George
> Utah (SGU). I started flying in 1897 in a Beech C24R Serria, traded up to
a
> Cessna T210, then a 58P Baron, a B60 Duke and my last plane was a 601P
> Aerostar. I have about 2000 hours total time, of which 1300 or so are in
> pressurized piston twins. I'm thinking of buying a project 680FP, it seems
> to be in pretty good shape, but before I dive in I'm hoping to gain a
little
> more knowledge about Twin Commanders in general and the 680FP in
particular.
>
> Is anyone versed on the 680FP? I'm particularly interested in the
> pressurization system and the power plant. I understand the IGSO540-A1B
has
> a rare "Simmonds" injection system, which I'm not familiar with. My
> understanding is that the pressurization system doesn't use bleed air.
Maybe
> I just misunderstood, and it does use bleed air from the supercharger.
What
> about sealing of the fuselage, does it pose any specific problems? Where
> would I find a POH, along with parts and maintenance manuals?
>
> Regards,
>
> Kerry Johnson
>
>
> (435) 673-4696 work phone
> (435) 673-4731 work fax
> (435) 673-5698 home phone
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cape Pilots die in Shrike crash |
In a message dated 11/24/01 11:02:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
<< Commander Shrike disappeared off radar screens at 15,000 feet >>
what were they doing at 15,000 feet??????
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kristian Meszaros <KMeszaros(at)worldnet.att.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kristian Meszaros" <KMeszaros(at)worldnet.att.net>
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie
> Dear kerry:
>
> I had a 680FP sn 1200 over 20 years ago. The following applies to 680FP
and
> FLP models
>
> Pressurization:
>
> Each engine has a larde hydraulic pump (much larger than normal) and the
> system runs at 3000 psi on skydrol. (you do NOT want to get skydrol on
your
> skin). In the tailcone they installed a hydraulic motor driven cabin
> supercharger/air cycle machine, both for cooling and pressurization.
> Additionally, there is a large blower for the air cycle machine heat
> exchanger for ground use, and if my memory serves me right, it drew 75
> amperes. It is extremely important to check the supercharger oil levels
> every flight. (one of the 2 points is an oil wick). Other than that, the
> system proved very reliable for me. The installation adds about 300 lbs,
all
> in the tailcone behind the baggage. Door seals are simple, and diff was, i
> believe, 3.2 psi. There was an AD on the aft pressure bulkhead, but not a
> repetitive one.
>
> Engines:
>
> I had good experience with them, however:
> 1. The Simmonds fuel injection is sometimes quirky:
> a. Do not run a tank dry (outboards), it takes a while for it to
> purge itself, and when the engine starts firing, leave the fuel pump on
for
> at least 5 mins. It is easier to feather and do an air start.
> b. The system is completely sealed and not adjustable: return to
> Simmonds (now Goodrich) for anything.
> c. After shutdown put the mixtiures full rich and leave them
there.
> Otherwise the diaphargms in the fuel controller dry out ($$$)
> d. Other than that, the injectors are troublefree and work well.
> 2. In flight, keep the gearbox loaded up and temps stabilized: not low
power
> descents (the high gear speeds help)
> 3. Absolutely, positively no sudden throttle changes: the crankshaft tuned
> counterweights really dislike this.
> I ran these to TBO 2 times with no intermediate work except Simmonds inj
> once. No cyls, no pistons, etc. The low tension ignition is trouble free,
> but make sure the mechanic knows something about it.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Kris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
> To: "'Commander Chat'"
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 1:20 PM
> Subject: Newbie
>
>
> >
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > My name is Kerry Johnson, I'm an electrical contractor living in St.
> George
> > Utah (SGU). I started flying in 1897 in a Beech C24R Serria, traded up
to
> a
> > Cessna T210, then a 58P Baron, a B60 Duke and my last plane was a 601P
> > Aerostar. I have about 2000 hours total time, of which 1300 or so are in
> > pressurized piston twins. I'm thinking of buying a project 680FP, it
seems
> > to be in pretty good shape, but before I dive in I'm hoping to gain a
> little
> > more knowledge about Twin Commanders in general and the 680FP in
> particular.
> >
> > Is anyone versed on the 680FP? I'm particularly interested in the
> > pressurization system and the power plant. I understand the IGSO540-A1B
> has
> > a rare "Simmonds" injection system, which I'm not familiar with. My
> > understanding is that the pressurization system doesn't use bleed air.
> Maybe
> > I just misunderstood, and it does use bleed air from the supercharger.
> What
> > about sealing of the fuselage, does it pose any specific problems?
Where
> > would I find a POH, along with parts and maintenance manuals?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Kerry Johnson
> >
> >
> > (435) 673-4696 work phone
> > (435) 673-4731 work fax
> > (435) 673-5698 home phone
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kristian Meszaros <KMeszaros(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Dear Kerry:
The engine supercharger is engine (mechanically) driven through gearing in
the engine accesory case and is completely independent of the hydraulics.
There is one hydraulic pump per engine, 3000 psi output, feeding: a. the
utility system, through a 1200 psi regulating valve, and b. the cabin
pressurization supercharger, through an electrically actuated valve. The
cabin presurization and air conditioning system runs only when this valve is
open, and that is pilot controlled. There is a ram air setting, for
ventilation with ram air. The problem is (for us in the tropics), that the
air conditioning works so well, that you never want to be without it. (I
also had a BE60 and the 680FP air cycle machine cools much better that the
Duke's system). I have no experience on replacing the supercharger, it did
not fail in over 2400 hrs, and only maintenance was oil . (uses turbo 2380
if I remember right). At the time, late 70's, overhaul was abt $ 8,000.
What will kill the supercharger fast is low oil level.
The IO720 conversion uses a bulletproof engine, but gives up in efficiency
by a fast turning prop, so despite the added power 400hp cont vs 380 TO and
360 METO, there is no apprciable gain in performance except that by
economically (engine life) operating at high power settings (above 75%).
Maintenance is lower on the IO720, especially with 50% longer TBO. Usable is
higher, ast the supercharger / ACM goes out, adding only the freon AC unit.
(abt 200# weight loss).
I am not familiar with the 58P injection, but if it had to go to Goodrich,
it probably was a Simmonds.
Best Regards,
Kris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
To: "'Kristian Meszaros'"
Cc: "'Commander Chat'" <commanderchat@c2-tech.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: Newbie
> Thanks for all the info Kris!
>
> So if I understand you correctly, the IGSO540 has it's own hydraulic
driven
> supercharger as does the pressurization system? Does the pressurization
> supercharger run all the time? How long do these superchargers normally
> last?
>
> The IO720 installation sounds a lot like the Aerostar set up. And, when
you
> start describing the simmonds injection system, it sound a lot like what
my
> 58P Baron had with it's TSIO520WB's. It also was not adjustable and had to
> be sent to Goodrich for calibration, the diaphragm also sounds familiar.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kerry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
Dear Kris,
I live in St. George, Utah and summer temps average
around 105 F during the summer months. Last summer we
had a stretch of 6 weeks when the high was never below
106F, so the A/C system sounds great.
I was looking at the empty and gross weights listed on
the Commander page and according to it the 680FP has
an empty weight of 4800 and a gross of 8000. Is this
accurate? A useful load of 3200 lb! WOW! It also says
the fuel capacity is only 156 Gal. :0(
Both these figures seem unrealistic. My BE60 held 232
usable and had a usable load of less than 2000 lb.
Kerry
--- Kristian Meszaros
wrote:
> Dear Kerry:
>
> The engine supercharger is engine (mechanically)
> driven through gearing in
> the engine accessory case and is completely
> independent of the hydraulics.
> There is one hydraulic pump per engine, 3000 psi
> output, feeding: a. the
> utility system, through a 1200 psi regulating valve,
> and b. the cabin
> pressurization supercharger, through an electrically
> actuated valve. The
> cabin pressurization and air conditioning system
runs
> only when this valve is
> open, and that is pilot controlled. There is a ram
> air setting, for
> ventilation with ram air. The problem is (for us in
> the tropics), that the
> air conditioning works so well, that you never want
> to be without it. (I
> also had a BE60 and the 680FP air cycle machine
> cools much better that the
> Duke's system). I have no experience on replacing
> the supercharger, it did
> not fail in over 2400 hrs, and only maintenance was
> oil . (uses turbo 2380
> if I remember right). At the time, late 70's,
> overhaul was abt $ 8,000.
> What will kill the supercharger fast is low oil
> level.
>
> The IO720 conversion uses a bulletproof engine, but
> gives up in efficiency
> by a fast turning prop, so despite the added power
> 400hp cont vs 380 TO and
> 360 METO, there is no appreciable gain in
performance
> except that by
> economically (engine life) operating at high power
> settings (above 75%).
> Maintenance is lower on the IO720, especially with
> 50% longer TBO. Usable is
> higher, ast the supercharger / ACM goes out, adding
> only the freon AC unit.
> (abt 200# weight loss).
>
> I am not familiar with the 58P injection, but if it
> had to go to Goodrich,
> it probably was a Simmonds.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Kris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
> To: "'Kristian Meszaros'"
>
> Cc: "'Commander Chat'" <commanderchat@c2-tech.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:26 PM
> Subject: RE: Newbie
>
>
> > Thanks for all the info Kris!
> >
> > So if I understand you correctly, the IGSO540 has
> it's own hydraulic
> driven
> > supercharger as does the pressurization system?
> Does the pressurization
> > supercharger run all the time? How long do these
> superchargers normally
> > last?
> >
> > The IO720 installation sounds a lot like the
> Aerostar set up. And, when
> you
> > start describing the simmonds injection system, it
> sound a lot like what
> my
> > 58P Baron had with it's TSIO520WB's. It also was
> not adjustable and had to
> > be sent to Goodrich for calibration, the diaphragm
> also sounds familiar.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Kerry
> >
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KERRY..............
The 680 F(P) has 223 gal fuel...............jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | ONE OF THEM FLIGHTS! |
HI KIDS................
I just got back from "T" day in Idaho. We left a day early
because of a BIG winter storm headed our way. I was 5 minutes from being
stuck their. A fast and I mean really fast moving cold front hit the airport
about an hour early and we departed is a blowing snow storm. We had good VFR
all the way looking north but 0-0 of the left wingtip as it chased us home.
We stayed well north of course and made if just fine except for the worst
turbulence I have ever experienced in a Commander (had it this bad in my Duke
once going into courdilane).
Sue had Molly (our wire fox terrier) on her lap and she went
completely airborne three times. The poor parrot was hanging on the cage
with her beak! Anyway, we were all glad to be home. Had a little tail wind
so made it in 1+ 45, about the usual time (yes, I did check the wing rivets
when I parker her and there were just fine). Triple 2 ran like a Swiss
watch.
Hope everybody else got home safe! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> HI KERRY..............
>
> The 680 F(P) has 223 gal fuel...............jb
So it does.... I've corrected that mistake on the web site.
I could also have 286 gal with the outboard aux tanks...
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Commander Timeline |
Just playing around with some HTML and did a table timeline
of Commander production.
http://www.aerocommander.com/Documents/timeline.html
If this does NOT properly display for you, let me know
what it does please...
Chris
PS:note the fascinating overlap of models...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kristian Meszaros <KMeszaros(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Dear Kerry:
I live in San Juan, PR, so AC was very important.
The 4800# AUW is for unequipped aircraft. Remember that in the early 60's
most avionics were very heavy, a typical AUW was 5400#. With modern
avionics, subtract abt 300# if you remove old wires.
Standard fuel is 223 gal total: 156 in the center tank, and two outboard
tanks of 33.5 each. Some came with 285 gal total (by adding 2 cells to each
outboard tank - a mod easily retroffitable)
Weight and balance is generous - much more so than the BE60 - one wag said
if you can close the door, it's OK.
Sorry for the delay - am still getting over the turkey overdose.
Best Regards
Kris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com>
To: "Kristian Meszaros"
Cc: "Commander Chat"
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie
> Dear Kris,
>
> I live in St. George, Utah and summer temps average
> around 105 F during the summer months. Last summer we
> had a stretch of 6 weeks when the high was never below
> 106F, so the A/C system sounds great.
>
> I was looking at the empty and gross weights listed on
> the Commander page and according to it the 680FP has
> an empty weight of 4800 and a gross of 8000. Is this
> accurate? A useful load of 3200 lb! WOW! It also says
> the fuel capacity is only 156 Gal. :0(
>
> Both these figures seem unrealistic. My BE60 held 232
> usable and had a usable load of less than 2000 lb.
>
> Kerry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Chris,does this mean that Lucille is the only 1957 680 that was never built?
Big AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | AC-680 FP info and welcome! |
In a message dated 11/24/01 13:37:01 Pacific Standard Time,
kerry(at)kvelectric.com writes:
> So if I understand you correctly, the IGSO540 has it's own hydraulic driven
> supercharger as does the pressurization system? Does the pressurization
> supercharger run all the time? How long do these superchargers normally
> last?
>
> The IO720 installation sounds a lot like the Aerostar set up. And, when you
> start describing the simmonds injection system, it sound a lot like what my
> 58P Baron had with it's TSIO520WB's. It also was not adjustable and had to
> be sent to Goodrich for calibration, the diaphragm also sounds familiar.
>
I just want to add a few points to the excellent info Kris gave you.
The Lycoming IGSO-540 has a mechanical supercharger and boosts the Manifold
Absolute Pressure (MAP) to 47" for take off. [The Mr. RPM conversion uses a
Lycoming IO-720 with dual Ray Jays and is turbo normalized to 29" MAP]
The engine has, on its accessory pads, positive displacement hydraulic pumps
that were manufactured by New York Airbrake Company. This is one component
set that you need to have a dialogue with Morris Kernick (Yoda) at Commander
Services (510-783-3028) about supporting.
These pumps put out the 3000 psi that runs the cabin supercharger; as Kris
said, this pressure is stepped down for the utility system.
The air cycle machine is a Stratos unit, talk to Morris about supporting this
as well.
The fuel injection is run by the Simmonds unit, as already pointed out, but
this is now supported -- as is the rest of the engine and gear box -- by
Central Cylinder of Omaha, Nebraska.
George Czarnecki - owner
Central Cylinder
6315 Lindbergh Dr
Omaha NE 68110
tel. 402-451-6468
fax. 402-451-3202
ccs(at)radiks.net
Dave Czarnecki son - does the Simmonds units
(pronounce: char-necky)
Central Cylinder came into being largely to support a fleet of AC-680-FLs
based at Omaha.
You will enjoy tracing Ted Smith's design philosophy backwards from the
AeroStar to the Aero Commander and you'll quickly become comfortable with the
systems.
One trick on engine shut down is to actually shut down with the mag switches.
Why such an odd procedure?
#1) meets the requirement to test the mag switches per AD on certain switches
and
#2) leaves the Simmonds loaded with fuel for diaphragm health and easier
starts.
I'm down the road in Las Vegas, if you need any more info and don't want to
do it all by email. Just let me know -- but it is beneficial to broadcast
all this info via our email reflector.
Enjoy!
Wing Commander Gordon
(Keith S. Gordon)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 11/24/01 18:34:10 Pacific Standard Time,
KMeszaros(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
> Weight and balance is generous - much more so than the BE60 - one wag said
> if you can close the door, it's OK.
>
Just be careful you don't tamper with the natural (original) aft empty Center
of Gravity.
The airplanes were balanced around approximately 300 pounds of avionics on
the racks aft of the rear baggage bulkhead.
If you remove those and put in panel mounted radios, you may need to install
a lead weight at the last frame to pull your empty CG aft again. This, by
the way, was what the factory did with the long body models.
~ Wing Commander Gordon ~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of Them Flights |
In a message dated 11/24/01 18:38:44 Pacific Standard Time,
N414C(at)cableone.net writes:
>
Great story, Milt, only I'm sorry it's going to cost you some money to
entertain and teach us as much as you did.
I am firmly in Milt's camp on the actual One Engine Inoperative practice (but
I've already distinguished myself as the Worst Man in Aviation) because the
handling at landing -- and most of all -- deceleration are so different than
with the "zero thrust" simulation which is NEVER zero thrust and/or probably
way more drag than a feathered engine.
Now, on to your problem. If a turbo failed, you would have been normally
aspirated and your fuel mixture would have been too rich causing a drop in
TIT.
I think something went way wrong in your fuel metering or you lost upper deck
(reference) pressure at the injectors.
Let us know what the diagnosis is as we can all learn from this.
Thanks for great flying and writing,
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of Them Flights |
Keith wrote:
>I think something went way wrong in your fuel metering or you
>lost upper deck (reference) pressure at the injectors.
Great minds obviously DO think alike :-) I just sent Milt a
guess that it was a problem with the upper deck lines as well.
(Now we'll see how many of the gearheads out here know what
we're talking about Keith )
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
I wish I could figure out how to highlight the bits from previous messages to include
in this but, after reading the entire "help" index, I still can't figure
out how to do it.
Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty weight cg. I always heard/thought
that the FP's had an aft cg problem to the point of almost neutral static
longitudinal stability when lightly loaded (empty). Is that incorrect?
David
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 8:00 PM
Subject: More 680FP info
In a message dated 11/24/01 18:34:10 Pacific Standard Time, KMeszaros(at)worldnet.att.net
writes:
Weight and balance is generous - much more so than the BE60 - one wag said
if you can close the door, it's OK.
Just be careful you don't tamper with the natural (original) aft empty Center
of Gravity.
The airplanes were balanced around approximately 300 pounds of avionics on the
racks aft of the rear baggage bulkhead.
If you remove those and put in panel mounted radios, you may need to install
a lead weight at the last frame to pull your empty CG aft again. This, by the
way, was what the factory did with the long body models.
~ Wing Commander Gordon ~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
In a message dated 11/24/01 19:35:35 Pacific Standard Time,
dmaytag(at)commspeed.net writes:
> Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty weight cg. I always
> heard/thought that the FP's had an aft cg problem to the point of almost
> neutral static longitudinal stability when lightly loaded (empty). Is that
>
Hi David,
Depending on what browser and email system you use, try highlighting the text
you want to respond to, then hit your "reply" icon and see if that puts that
text in your mail.
Now, on to 680-FP balance. I have only flown 4 680-FP models, two with
original radios and 2 with "upgraded"/panel mount avionics.
I found, as I do with all Commander models, that if your empty CG is not as
far aft as you can get it, you will always be in a forward CG with low fuel
and a loaded cabin.
Note to those lurking: As far as I know, there are only 2 general aviation
piston-twin lines that have the CG move forward with fuel burn: The Aero
Commander and Aero Star.
Anyway, in the four -FPs I was in, it was the same old drill. Unless the
pilot was a jockey, pax were on the bench seat and a cargo of anvils in the
baggage zone, changes from original avionics mounting made for a forward CG
with seats filled and fuel at typical end-of-trip levels.
Just my field experience. You probably have some knowledge about the
dynamics of the -FPs that I never knew and blissfully (ignorance is) trained
four owners in them!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
Dear Nico,
I'm no expert on geared engines, but my guess is that
the increased efficiency has to do with turning the
props slower and not any difference in torque. Slower
turning, longer props are generally more efficient
than faster shorter props. I think this is the main
reason Dukes like the runway so much :0)
After reading this thread, now I'm curious now about
something else. If the 680FP has a forward CG problem
when lightly loaded, wouldn't changing out the
original air cycle unit for a lighter freon system
make the problem worse?
I really appreciate all the excellent info. I'm going
to inspect the aircraft in question on Dec. 5, and I'm
starting to get a few ideas about what to look for.
I'll be calling Morris Kernick on Monday for his
recommendation as to how best to handle the
inspection.
Regards,
Kerry
--- Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Educate me, please.
>
> I don't have much time in a 680FP, and about 1,000
> on a straight 500, so I could not assess the power
> difference between similarly powered geared or
> straight engines. I just came away from the FP every
> time with awe at the power and the effective air
> conditioning.
> Does a geared motor have more efficiency because of
> higher torque than a straight engine of higher horse
> power? If so, how much torque does the 720's have? I
> believe the geared 380hp engines have 1,000 ft#, no?
>
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
> To: dmaytag(at)commspeed.net ;
> commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: More 680FP info
>
>
> In a message dated 11/24/01 19:35:35 Pacific
> Standard Time, dmaytag(at)commspeed.net writes:
>
>
>
> Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty
> weight cg. I always heard/thought that the FP's had
> an aft cg problem to the point of almost neutral
> static longitudinal stability when lightly loaded
> (empty). Is that incorrect?
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> Depending on what browser and email system you
> use, try highlighting the text you want to respond
> to, then hit your "reply" icon and see if that puts
> that text in your mail.
>
> Now, on to 680-FP balance. I have only flown 4
> 680-FP models, two with original radios and 2 with
> "upgraded"/panel mount avionics.
>
> I found, as I do with all Commander models, that
> if your empty CG is not as far aft as you can get
> it, you will always be in a forward CG with low fuel
> and a loaded cabin.
>
> Note to those lurking: As far as I know, there are
> only 2 general aviation piston-twin lines that have
> the CG move forward with fuel burn: The Aero
> Commander and Aero Star.
>
> Anyway, in the four -FPs I was in, it was the same
> old drill. Unless the pilot was a jockey, pax were
> on the bench seat and a cargo of anvils in the
> baggage zone, changes from original avionics
> mounting made for a forward CG with seats filled and
> fuel at typical end-of-trip levels.
>
> Just my field experience. You probably have some
> knowledge about the dynamics of the -FPs that I
> never knew and blissfully (ignorance is) trained
> four owners in them!
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
In a message dated 11/24/01 20:50:39 Pacific Standard Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> Does a geared motor have more efficiency because of higher torque than a
> straight engine of higher horse power? If so, how much torque does the
> 720's have? I believe the geared 380hp engines have 1,000 ft#, no?
>
Nico,
I think Chris has torque information on the IGSO-540s and perhaps Tyler Hall
can check with Mr. RPM about dyno readings on the IO-720.
Lacking any engineering data, the stunning performance you experienced on the
680-FP was, in my shoot-from-the-hip-estimation, due to those long prop
blades.
Those air screws catapult the aircraft down the runway and into the air. And
that's why we all want to see the 86" blades on a Mr. RPM conversion -- and
from what Chris tells me, it's about $50,000 to run the vibration analysis
for certification of those blades, so we'll all keep wishing.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Milt,
Harry Merritt is on the east coast of Florida and a little north of you.
You may want to try him.
He has several aircraft listed on the for sale section of the web site.
I know he works on the IGSO-540, but I do not know if he has worked on a
685.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: N414C [mailto:N414C(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 8:41 PM
To: Commander Tech Chat
Subject:
Has anyone had any experience with Banyan?
My plane is stuck at a small airport about 150 miles from them.
Will they send a crew out for major repairs?
Anyone know of a good engine mechanic near FT, Meyers Fla.?
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
Nico,
I like to use the tire analogy. A dragster with all the power in the world is
going to loose if it has bad tires. The horsepower needs to be converted into
thrust. The most effective way to create static thrust is to move the largest
volume of air possible. Big propellers move a lot of air but they must turn
at such a speed so as not to loose efficiency from too high a tip speed. Piston
engines on the other hand like to run at higher rpm's than the propeller so,
the only way to make the two happy is the gear reduction.
The direct drive engines are handicapped in a couple of ways. First, the engine
has to run at relatively low RPM because the propeller is limited by its tip
speeds (and noise regs, too but that's another story) so it can not make its
full potential of horsepower. Secondly, the propeller has to travel at a relatively
high rpm which dictates a small diameter. The small diameter doesn't move
much air efficiently below about 60 to 90 knots so take off distances suffer
accordingly.
In cruise the larger propellers bring a drag penalty with them so it is the designers
task to find the best match for the airplane depending on the mission.
It is interesting to see the difference between the two engine types in the Helio
Courier. The geared H-295 (GO-480, 295 horsepower) will beat the H-800 (IO-720,
400 horsepower) off the ground every time using 105 less horses. The H-800
climbs better though once the speed is above 60 or so.
Geared engines definitely got a bad rap that they never recovered from. It's too
bad in my opinion because it really is the best way for piston engines to deliver
their power into thrust. So many geared engines have been so badly neglected
and poorly maintained, that it really is a minefield for prospective purchasers.
But on a great airplane like the Commander, it is worth the added expense.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: More 680FP info
Educate me, please.
I don't have much time in a 680FP, and about 1,000 on a straight 500, so I could
not assess the power difference between similarly powered geared or straight
engines. I just came away from the FP every time with awe at the power and
the effective air conditioning.
Does a geared motor have more efficiency because of higher torque than a straight
engine of higher horse power? If so, how much torque does the 720's have?
I believe the geared 380hp engines have 1,000 ft#, no?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: dmaytag(at)commspeed.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: More 680FP info
In a message dated 11/24/01 19:35:35 Pacific Standard Time, dmaytag(at)commspeed.net
writes:
Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty weight cg. I always heard/thought
that the FP's had an aft cg problem to the point of almost neutral
static longitudinal stability when lightly loaded (empty). Is that incorrect?
Hi David,
Depending on what browser and email system you use, try highlighting the text
you want to respond to, then hit your "reply" icon and see if that puts that
text in your mail.
Now, on to 680-FP balance. I have only flown 4 680-FP models, two with original
radios and 2 with "upgraded"/panel mount avionics.
I found, as I do with all Commander models, that if your empty CG is not as
far aft as you can get it, you will always be in a forward CG with low fuel and
a loaded cabin.
Note to those lurking: As far as I know, there are only 2 general aviation
piston-twin lines that have the CG move forward with fuel burn: The Aero Commander
and Aero Star.
Anyway, in the four -FPs I was in, it was the same old drill. Unless the pilot
was a jockey, pax were on the bench seat and a cargo of anvils in the baggage
zone, changes from original avionics mounting made for a forward CG with
seats filled and fuel at typical end-of-trip levels.
Just my field experience. You probably have some knowledge about the dynamics
of the -FPs that I never knew and blissfully (ignorance is) trained four owners
in them!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
Dear Nico,
I'm no expert on geared engines, but my guess is that
the increased efficency has to do with turning the
props slower and not any difference in torque. Slower
turning longer props are generally more efficient than
faster turning short props. I think this is the main
reason Dukes like the runway so much.
After reading this thread, now I'm curious now about
something else. If the 680FP has a forward CG problem
when lightly loaded, wouldn't changing out the
origional air cycle unit for a lighter freon system
make the problem worse?
I really appreciate all the excellent info. I'm going
to inspect the aircraft in question on Dec. 5, and I'm
starting to get a few ideas about what to look for.
I'll be calling Morris Kernick on Monday to get his
opinion as to how to handle the inspection.
Regards,
Kerry
--- Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Educate me, please.
>
> I don't have much time in a 680FP, and about 1,000
> on a straight 500, so I could not assess the power
> difference between similarly powered geared or
> straight engines. I just came away from the FP every
> time with awe at the power and the effective air
> conditioning.
> Does a geared motor have more efficiency because of
> higher torque than a straight engine of higher horse
> power? If so, how much torque does the 720's have? I
> believe the geared 380hp engines have 1,000 ft#, no?
>
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
> To: dmaytag(at)commspeed.net ;
> commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: More 680FP info
>
>
> In a message dated 11/24/01 19:35:35 Pacific
> Standard Time, dmaytag(at)commspeed.net writes:
>
>
>
> Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty
> weight cg. I always heard/thought that the FP's had
> an aft cg problem to the point of almost neutral
> static longitudinal stability when lightly loaded
> (empty). Is that incorrect?
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> Depending on what browser and email system you
> use, try highlighting the text you want to respond
> to, then hit your "reply" icon and see if that puts
> that text in your mail.
>
> Now, on to 680-FP balance. I have only flown 4
> 680-FP models, two with original radios and 2 with
> "upgraded"/panel mount avionics.
>
> I found, as I do with all Commander models, that
> if your empty CG is not as far aft as you can get
> it, you will always be in a forward CG with low fuel
> and a loaded cabin.
>
> Note to those lurking: As far as I know, there are
> only 2 general aviation piston-twin lines that have
> the CG move forward with fuel burn: The Aero
> Commander and Aero Star.
>
> Anyway, in the four -FPs I was in, it was the same
> old drill. Unless the pilot was a jockey, pax were
> on the bench seat and a cargo of anvils in the
> baggage zone, changes from original avionics
> mounting made for a forward CG with seats filled and
> fuel at typical end-of-trip levels.
>
> Just my field experience. You probably have some
> knowledge about the dynamics of the -FPs that I
> never knew and blissfully (ignorance is) trained
> four owners in them!
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
Gents,
My search for a good 680 F or FL with the original nose is discouraging.
I was wondering: Can the Shrike noses be removed, or do they really muck up the
original structure with screws/rivets, etc.. during installation?
If the nose can come off without leading to a complete nose rebuild, that sure
widens my search field.
Thanks
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
Dear Nico,
I'm no expert on geared engines, but my guess is that
the increased efficiency has to do with turning the
props slower and not any difference in torque. Slower
turning, longer props are generally more efficient
than faster shorter props. I think this is the main
reason Dukes like the runway so much :0)
After reading this thread, now I'm curious now about
something else. If the 680FP has a forward CG problem
when lightly loaded, wouldn't changing out the
original air cycle unit for a lighter freon system
make the problem worse?
I really appreciate all the excellent info. I'm going
to inspect the aircraft in question on Dec. 5, and I'm
starting to get a few ideas about what to look for.
I'll be calling Morris Kernick on Monday for his
recommendation as to how best to handle the
inspection.
Regards,
Kerry
--- Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Educate me, please.
>
> I don't have much time in a 680FP, and about 1,000
> on a straight 500, so I could not assess the power
> difference between similarly powered geared or
> straight engines. I just came away from the FP every
> time with awe at the power and the effective air
> conditioning.
> Does a geared motor have more efficiency because of
> higher torque than a straight engine of higher horse
> power? If so, how much torque does the 720's have? I
> believe the geared 380hp engines have 1,000 ft#, no?
>
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
> To: dmaytag(at)commspeed.net ;
> commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: More 680FP info
>
>
> In a message dated 11/24/01 19:35:35 Pacific
> Standard Time, dmaytag(at)commspeed.net writes:
>
>
>
> Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty
> weight cg. I always heard/thought that the FP's had
> an aft cg problem to the point of almost neutral
> static longitudinal stability when lightly loaded
> (empty). Is that incorrect?
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> Depending on what browser and email system you
> use, try highlighting the text you want to respond
> to, then hit your "reply" icon and see if that puts
> that text in your mail.
>
> Now, on to 680-FP balance. I have only flown 4
> 680-FP models, two with original radios and 2 with
> "upgraded"/panel mount avionics.
>
> I found, as I do with all Commander models, that
> if your empty CG is not as far aft as you can get
> it, you will always be in a forward CG with low fuel
> and a loaded cabin.
>
> Note to those lurking: As far as I know, there are
> only 2 general aviation piston-twin lines that have
> the CG move forward with fuel burn: The Aero
> Commander and Aero Star.
>
> Anyway, in the four -FPs I was in, it was the same
> old drill. Unless the pilot was a jockey, pax were
> on the bench seat and a cargo of anvils in the
> baggage zone, changes from original avionics
> mounting made for a forward CG with seats filled and
> fuel at typical end-of-trip levels.
>
> Just my field experience. You probably have some
> knowledge about the dynamics of the -FPs that I
> never knew and blissfully (ignorance is) trained
> four owners in them!
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
Nico,
I like to use the tire analogy. A dragster with all the power in the world is
going to loose if it has bad tires. The horsepower needs to be converted into
thrust. The most effective way to create static thrust is to move the largest
volume of air possible. Big propellers move a lot of air but they must turn
at such a speed so as not to loose efficiency from too high a tip speed. Piston
engines on the other hand like to run at higher rpm's than the propeller so,
the only way to make the two happy is the gear reduction.
The direct drive engines are handicapped in a couple of ways. First, the engine
has to run at relatively low RPM because the propeller is limited by its tip
speeds (and noise regs, too but that's another story) so it can not make its
full potential of horsepower. Secondly, the propeller has to travel at a relatively
high rpm which dictates a small diameter. The small diameter doesn't move
much air efficiently below about 60 to 90 knots so take off distances suffer
accordingly.
In cruise the larger propellers bring a drag penalty with them so it is the designers
task to find the best match for the airplane depending on the mission.
It is interesting to see the difference between the two engine types in the Helio
Courier. The geared H-295 (GO-480, 295 horsepower) will beat the H-800 (IO-720,
400 horsepower) off the ground every time using 105 less horses. The H-800
climbs better though once the speed is above 60 or so.
Geared engines definitely got a bad rap that they never recovered from. It's too
bad in my opinion because it really is the best way for piston engines to deliver
their power into thrust. So many geared engines have been so badly neglected
and poorly maintained, that it really is a minefield for prospective purchasers.
But on a great airplane like the Commander, it is worth the added expense.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: More 680FP info
Educate me, please.
I don't have much time in a 680FP, and about 1,000 on a straight 500, so I could
not assess the power difference between similarly powered geared or straight
engines. I just came away from the FP every time with awe at the power and
the effective air conditioning.
Does a geared motor have more efficiency because of higher torque than a straight
engine of higher horse power? If so, how much torque does the 720's have?
I believe the geared 380hp engines have 1,000 ft#, no?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: dmaytag(at)commspeed.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: More 680FP info
In a message dated 11/24/01 19:35:35 Pacific Standard Time, dmaytag(at)commspeed.net
writes:
Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty weight cg. I always heard/thought
that the FP's had an aft cg problem to the point of almost neutral
static longitudinal stability when lightly loaded (empty). Is that incorrect?
Hi David,
Depending on what browser and email system you use, try highlighting the text
you want to respond to, then hit your "reply" icon and see if that puts that
text in your mail.
Now, on to 680-FP balance. I have only flown 4 680-FP models, two with original
radios and 2 with "upgraded"/panel mount avionics.
I found, as I do with all Commander models, that if your empty CG is not as
far aft as you can get it, you will always be in a forward CG with low fuel and
a loaded cabin.
Note to those lurking: As far as I know, there are only 2 general aviation
piston-twin lines that have the CG move forward with fuel burn: The Aero Commander
and Aero Star.
Anyway, in the four -FPs I was in, it was the same old drill. Unless the pilot
was a jockey, pax were on the bench seat and a cargo of anvils in the baggage
zone, changes from original avionics mounting made for a forward CG with
seats filled and fuel at typical end-of-trip levels.
Just my field experience. You probably have some knowledge about the dynamics
of the -FPs that I never knew and blissfully (ignorance is) trained four owners
in them!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
Dear Nico,
I'm no expert on geared engines, but my guess is that
the increased efficency has to do with turning the
props slower and not any difference in torque. Slower
turning longer props are generally more efficient than
faster turning short props. I think this is the main
reason Dukes like the runway so much.
After reading this thread, now I'm curious now about
something else. If the 680FP has a forward CG problem
when lightly loaded, wouldn't changing out the
origional air cycle unit for a lighter freon system
make the problem worse?
I really appreciate all the excellent info. I'm going
to inspect the aircraft in question on Dec. 5, and I'm
starting to get a few ideas about what to look for.
I'll be calling Morris Kernick on Monday to get his
opinion as to how to handle the inspection.
Regards,
Kerry
--- Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Educate me, please.
>
> I don't have much time in a 680FP, and about 1,000
> on a straight 500, so I could not assess the power
> difference between similarly powered geared or
> straight engines. I just came away from the FP every
> time with awe at the power and the effective air
> conditioning.
> Does a geared motor have more efficiency because of
> higher torque than a straight engine of higher horse
> power? If so, how much torque does the 720's have? I
> believe the geared 380hp engines have 1,000 ft#, no?
>
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
> To: dmaytag(at)commspeed.net ;
> commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: More 680FP info
>
>
> In a message dated 11/24/01 19:35:35 Pacific
> Standard Time, dmaytag(at)commspeed.net writes:
>
>
>
> Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty
> weight cg. I always heard/thought that the FP's had
> an aft cg problem to the point of almost neutral
> static longitudinal stability when lightly loaded
> (empty). Is that incorrect?
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> Depending on what browser and email system you
> use, try highlighting the text you want to respond
> to, then hit your "reply" icon and see if that puts
> that text in your mail.
>
> Now, on to 680-FP balance. I have only flown 4
> 680-FP models, two with original radios and 2 with
> "upgraded"/panel mount avionics.
>
> I found, as I do with all Commander models, that
> if your empty CG is not as far aft as you can get
> it, you will always be in a forward CG with low fuel
> and a loaded cabin.
>
> Note to those lurking: As far as I know, there are
> only 2 general aviation piston-twin lines that have
> the CG move forward with fuel burn: The Aero
> Commander and Aero Star.
>
> Anyway, in the four -FPs I was in, it was the same
> old drill. Unless the pilot was a jockey, pax were
> on the bench seat and a cargo of anvils in the
> baggage zone, changes from original avionics
> mounting made for a forward CG with seats filled and
> fuel at typical end-of-trip levels.
>
> Just my field experience. You probably have some
> knowledge about the dynamics of the -FPs that I
> never knew and blissfully (ignorance is) trained
> four owners in them!
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Shrike noses |
David,
The Suburban Air Freight 680FL's are still for sale.
Last I heard there are still eight of them.
Some have the "Chamberlain" nose for the radar (has a bump on it).
Others have the "Miller" (Shrike) nose for the radar.
I believe if you don't mind losing the radar that it can be removed easily.
Opinions anyone?
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: David Maytag
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 21:36
Subject: Shrike noses
Gents,
My search for a good 680 F or FL with the original nose is discouraging.
I was wondering: Can the Shrike noses be removed, or do they really muck up
the original structure with screws/rivets, etc.. during installation?
If the nose can come off without leading to a complete nose rebuild, that sure
widens my search field.
Thanks
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
Thanks for the e-mail tip, Keith. I still can't seem to make it work. I'm on
internet explorer and outlook express but the trick just eludes me.
As to the condition of landing light on fuel with full load of people up front,
you are right - CG is very forward - need lots of trim. I just overlooked that
because no one likes to fly with me and I'm such a chicken, I always land with
an embarrassing amount of fuel left over.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: dmaytag(at)commspeed.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: More 680FP info
In a message dated 11/24/01 19:35:35 Pacific Standard Time, dmaytag(at)commspeed.net
writes:
Anyway, Wing Commander Gordon talked about empty weight cg. I always heard/thought
that the FP's had an aft cg problem to the point of almost neutral static
longitudinal stability when lightly loaded (empty). Is that incorrect?
Hi David,
Depending on what browser and email system you use, try highlighting the text
you want to respond to, then hit your "reply" icon and see if that puts that
text in your mail.
Now, on to 680-FP balance. I have only flown 4 680-FP models, two with original
radios and 2 with "upgraded"/panel mount avionics.
I found, as I do with all Commander models, that if your empty CG is not as far
aft as you can get it, you will always be in a forward CG with low fuel and
a loaded cabin.
Note to those lurking: As far as I know, there are only 2 general aviation piston-twin
lines that have the CG move forward with fuel burn: The Aero Commander
and Aero Star.
Anyway, in the four -FPs I was in, it was the same old drill. Unless the pilot
was a jockey, pax were on the bench seat and a cargo of anvils in the baggage
zone, changes from original avionics mounting made for a forward CG with seats
filled and fuel at typical end-of-trip levels.
Just my field experience. You probably have some knowledge about the dynamics
of the -FPs that I never knew and blissfully (ignorance is) trained four owners
in them!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
In a message dated 11/24/01 21:52:42 Pacific Standard Time,
kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com writes:
> After reading this thread, now I'm curious now about
> something else. If the 680FP has a forward CG problem
> when lightly loaded, wouldn't changing out the
> original air cycle unit for a lighter freon system
> make the problem worse?
Kerry,
You're only going to swap out the air cycle machine and the cabin
supercharger if you do a Mr. RPM conversion (Lycoming IO-720 engines).
If you are looking at a stock AC-680-FP, you will have all the environmental
systems in place.
You'll only need to keep an eye on your CG if you or someone else has added a
Shrike nose and/or go with panel mount avionics.
Don't let me scare you -- it's easy to place the weight on the tail stinger
bulkhead, unless you have a slaved compass system and the flux gate is
located there. If that's so, you'll use slightly more weight on a different
position, or, you'll always keep some ballast in the baggage compartment.
Remember, the forward CG is common to all Commanders that have had
modernization in the form of Shrike noses, forward doors, eyebrow windows,
panel mount avionics.
This forward condition is at its worst when flying with a pilot and copilot,
low fuel and light baggage.
Keep the baggage area loaded (gee ... what a shame!) and/or keep big fuel
reserves (not too dangerous a practice) and that's one way to assure you're
in CG at landing.
On the other hand, I've been ranting and raving about this topic for so many
years in magazine articles and in training programs, that a lot of the planes
have taken care of this problem. The one you're looking at may be perfectly
OK in the CG department.
Gary Gadberry automatically does the balancing act when he sets up one of his
Air Center packages.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More 680FP info |
In a message dated 11/24/01 9:15:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
> those long prop blades.
HI KIDS............
That is the magic. Remember that the engine does not move the
airplane, the propeller does. The prop doesn't care if it is connected to a
direct drive engine, geared engine or an electric motor for that matter.
What it does care about is operating RPM. If the prop turns fast enough to
speed the blade tips past supersonic, that portion of the blade becomes
essentially worthless (if an 86" prop tip breaks the sound barrier at 2800
rpm, you will gain little by extending the blade to 90," it just makes a lot
more noise)
Conversely, if you can spin the engine up without turning the blades
faster, you will increase the efficiency greatly. It also helps the engine,
as it is like placing your care in low gear to start out.
I have empirical data here. When I was crop dusting I flew for many
years another Commander, a Thrush Commander with a 600 HP P & W direct drive
engine. At 2500 ft MSL, our field elevation, with a 10 : 1 blower, we could
just pull redline MP for T.O. The airplane I owned would carry 350 gals. of
water. We installed a geared 600 HP P & W (otherwise exactly the same
engine) and a huge 3 blade propeller (from a Grumman albatross) and voiles! A
400 gallon airplane that was 5 MPH faster!!! We did the mod because it was
dramatically quieter, (we sprayed almost exclusively at night) but the
performance increase was amazing.
Geared engines ALWAYS out perform their direct drive counterparts,
ALWAYS. Ever watch a 65 hp (GEARED Rotax) Avid Flyer or Kitfox fly next to a
65 HP (direct drive) Cub?? Once again my case in point. It requires two
more jugs and another 180 cid (IO-720 = 400 HP) to equal the HP of the Igso
540 (380) They do require a bit more pilot technique, have a shorter TBO and
there are certainly more expensive to overhaul but for me, they are worth
it...................jb
PS Morris K. swears that a lightly loaded 680F will easily out run a P-51
from break release to 2000 feet!?!?!..........jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shrike noses |
One of the steps in mounting the shrike nose involves cutting out the zeus fastener
frame around the access panel on top of the nose. It also requires some cutting
for the air intake and around th landing lights. Im sure it can be removed
but you will have to do some sheet metal work and obtain a new nose cap.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Fisher
To: commandertech-request(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: Shrike noses
David,
The Suburban Air Freight 680FL's are still for sale.
Last I heard there are still eight of them.
Some have the "Chamberlain" nose for the radar (has a bump on it).
Others have the "Miller" (Shrike) nose for the radar.
I believe if you don't mind losing the radar that it can be removed easily.
Opinions anyone?
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: David Maytag
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 21:36
Subject: Shrike noses
Gents,
My search for a good 680 F or FL with the original nose is discouraging.
I was wondering: Can the Shrike noses be removed, or do they really muck up
the original structure with screws/rivets, etc.. during installation?
If the nose can come off without leading to a complete nose rebuild, that sure
widens my search field.
Thanks
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
I find in the 685 (with the avionics in the back) that with me and 1 passenger
up front that I end most flights at forward CG limits or just forward of forward
CG limits. I solved this by carrying a case of oil, stepladder and a tool kit
in the very aft part of the luggage rack. Needless to say I do not plan an
avionics upgrade at least for the navcoms.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michrandi(at)aol.com <Michrandi(at)aol.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Has anyone done a nice spreadsheet W&B for the Commanders?
I have a VERY nice one for the Viking which creates a
graphical display of the envelope showing the change with
fuel burn, but nothing for the Commander...
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One of Them Flights |
MILT, I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW PROUD I AM THAT YOU ARE IN ONE PIECE, AND THE
AIRPLANE IS REUSABLE!!!!
NOBODY BETTER ARM CHAIR QAURTERBACK THAT STORY. I THINK YOU DID IT
PERFECTLY!!!!
(snip) And know I will go and smoke my last Cuban cigar........
And Milt was heard saying as he pulled hard on the cigar.....And boys there I
was at 9,500 ft. with the right one tanked and left one pulling for all it
was worth, and when I really needed the old girl to strut her stuff she moved
across the dance floor like she was floating on air.................
GOOD SHOW MILT!!!!!!!! GOOD SHOW!!!!!!!!
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Previous Commander crash |
Damn Right!!!! Soome people just don't get it. You have ONE chance at a single
engine go around. One chance out of one is bad odds in my book.
bilbo the wus
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Previous Commander crash
THAI IS WHY I HAVE ALWAYS SAID "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SINGLE ENGINE GO
AROUND" PRACTICE THEM ALL YOU WANT, BUT WHEN IT REALLY HIT THE FAN, LAND AT THE
END OF THE APPROACH, PERIOD!! In the seaplane community we call it a glassy
water landing, 250 fpm until it hits. everyone will walk away and the airplane
will probably not be damaged, go around?? read the above post....just my thoughts
jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cape Pilots die in Shrike crash |
Hi Nico,
I followed this story as it was happening. There were a couple of things that stuck
out:
1) Major icing conditions and very low ceilings were forecast when they left Iceland.
2) The two pilots had a *combined* total time in Commanders of about 45 hours.....which
always makes me skeptical.
It's a tragedy no matter how you slice it, that's for sure. Get-there-itis played
a part certainly, and I think it might have been better if they had lots and
lots of Commander time. The "official guess" at this point is that the airframe
iced up beginning at about 7,000msl, and with low ceilings, they couldn't
get back down to land...
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:39 AM
Subject: Cape Pilots die in Shrike crash
FYI.
It happened earlier this year. Anyone with news as to what went wrong?
Cape pilots die in crash
By EMILY C. DOOLEY
STAFF WRITER
Two Provincetown women who had just begun a trip around the world died yesterday
when the plane they were piloting plunged into the North Atlantic Ocean off
the coast of Iceland.
Provincetown pilots Barbara Gard, 52, left, a former Marine and retired
National Guard major, and Gwen Bloomingdale, 58, a retired Boston attorney,
died yesterday when the plane they were piloting, shown in the background of the
top photo, crashed off the coast of Iceland. Investigators do not have an initial
idea of why the plane crashed 40 minutes after takeoff from Keflavik Airport
near Reykjavik.
(Staff file photo by VINCENT DEWITT)
Read the Cape Cod Times feature story last year on the pair.
The bodies of Barbara Gard, 52, and Gwen Bloomingdale, 58, were pulled from
of the crash has not been determined.
"The flying conditions were not so good but there is no indication of what caused
this accident," said Duty Officer Jon Bjornsson. "There is no clear indication
of why this happened."
Fishing boats, coast guard vessels and helicopters began searching the area
after the twin-engine 1973 Rockwell Aero Commander Shrike disappeared off radar
screens at 15,000 feet at 8:55 a.m., just 40 minutes after taking off from Keflavik
Airport.
Crewmen aboard the ferry Herjolfur first spotted suitcases and clothing eight
miles off the coast of the Westmann Islands late in the afternoon. Two small
coast guard vessels found the remains of Gard and Bloomingdale among scattered
debris shortly thereafter, said Omar Oskarsson, a reporter with the Icelandic
newspaper Morgunbladid.
The two left Provincetown Municipal Airport Thursday to begin a yearlong trip
around the world. Bloomingdale, a retired Boston attorney, and Gard, a former
Marine and retired National Guard major, operated the flightseeing company Willie
Air Tours out of Florida and Provincetown.
Together they had some 30 years' flying experience and more than 3,000 flight
hours. Gard, a certified airframe and power plant mechanic as well as a pilot,
had two previous accidents. In 1996, she splashed her plane into Ryder Pond
in Chatham and walked away with barely an injury after an engine failure. Two
years later, she landed a plane on its belly in Provincetown after she reportedly
forgot to put down the landing gear.
Pair en route to London
At the time of yesterday's accident, the pair had been making their way to London
for the start of the Sydney Air Race 2001, a trek that stretches across
Europe, Africa and Asia before ending in Sydney, Australia. The race is expected
to begin Sunday.
After leaving Provincetown Thursday, the pair had made stops in Maine and Greenland.
On Monday, they left Greenland and headed to Keflavik, about 40 miles
west of Iceland's capital city, Reykjavik. A brief stop in Scotland was planned
before Gard and Bloomingdale were scheduled to land in London.
The 28-day race is a celebration of Australia's 100th year as a federation.
Friends said Gard and Bloomingdale were thrilled to be part of the adventure.
"They had dreams of flying over the Taj Mahal," said friend Gerry Desautels.
"They dared to do something most of us only dream about. I regret they couldn't
be a part of the race. It's life cut short too soon."
Bjornsson said the coast guard will continue searching for other debris and
the flight recorder, known as the black box. Friends are not sure if the plane
was equipped with such a device but are hopeful a reason for the crash will be
found.
"I'm not believing it's real," said friend P.J. Layng. "I was leaving tomorrow
to join them. We had a big party planned. I'm just sick over it."
Search conditions treacherous
Strong ocean currents, rough seas and wind gusts made the search effort treacherous,
and conditions are not expected to get better, Bjornsson said.
The northeaster that has been pummeling New England and stirring up the North
Atlantic is typical Icelandic weather, said Tom Berman, a Buzzards Bay resident
who travels frequently to Iceland and was stationed at Keflavik Naval Air
Station.
"It's very cold, inhospitable," Berman said. "You can get some weather that
will pop up in an instant and there is nowhere to go."
Gard and Bloomingdale were one of two teams with Cape Cod roots entered in the
Sydney Air Race 2001.
Jean Turnbull of Cummaquid is part of the team known as the Sky Trekkers. Turnbull
flew her plane to London weeks ago because she did not know how long the
crossing would take or if weather would be cooperative, team member Priscilla
Myers said from her New Jersey home last night.
After returning to the Cape to finish preparations, Turnbull ran into Gard and
Bloomingdale last week at Barnstable Municipal Airport and wished the Provincetown
duo well. She told them about weather she encountered during her Atlantic
crossing, Myers said.
True aviators
Gard and Bloomingdale were particularly excited about their trip because they
were hoping to share their experience with relatives. They pledged to carry
a laptop computer and satellite cellular phone so that they could post pictures
and journal entries online. Their grandchildren in Rockport and Dallas were
going to follow the journey with their classrooms. Provincetown students also
were planning to follow the race.
"They were very open and generous and wanted to share the experience. It was
literally the trip of a lifetime for some of these family members," Desautels
said.
Bloomingdale spent many years on the airport commission and resigned her post
as Provincetown representative to the Cape Cod Commission to plan her journey
around the world. After two years of preparation, the last two months were especially
busy getting everything in order.
"They were very excited and headed for what they hoped to be the time of their
lives," said airport director Arthur Butch Lisenby. "It's very hard to believe,
very hard to believe."
"They were true aviators," Desautels said.
Services will be held at a later date at the Unitarian Universalist Meeting
House in Provincetown.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Thanks to all for info about mechanics in Fla. I certainly should be able to find
one who can help now.
Its nice to have friends all over the country.
Moe Mills flew in this AM, We had breakfeast and shot the shit for awhile. Just
as JB said hes a really great guy. (Thats cause he was born down here)
Hes having a Shrike nose put on his 680FP. Ill try and get daily pictures of the
project and post them to Chris.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One of Them Flights |
Chris,
This has got to go in Commander Tails. What a flight!
Milt did it right and got it back on the ground. This is why we fly twins.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 8:23 PM
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: One of Them Flights
Keith wrote:
>I think something went way wrong in your fuel metering or you
>lost upper deck (reference) pressure at the injectors.
Great minds obviously DO think alike :-) I just sent Milt a
guess that it was a problem with the upper deck lines as well.
(Now we'll see how many of the gearheads out here know what
we're talking about Keith )
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircenter 500B |
Hi,
That airplane used to belong to Dave Fenner (hence "DF"), who owns Sunwest
Aviation in Tucson, AZ. You could probably contact him, or ask for Mitch
Oomens (Chief Pilot) or John Meredith (who knows tons about flying
Commanders) and he/they could tell you a bit about it. It is an Aircenter
conversion, and I've sat in it, but did my training in my airplane. I know
it has air conditioning, and an interesting looking wood instrument panel.
It seems very clean.
As a joke, the guys at Sunwest called it the "Devil Airplane" because of the
tail number. I'll have to let you decide yourself if that is significant
;-).
It looked quite nice on the outside, and seemed mechanically sound (clean,
no oil leaks on the ground, etc.). That was back in 2/2000.
Hope this helps,
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: <Skydoc07(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Aircenter 500B
> Hi
>
> I am new to the talk site and will get my application in soon. Does anyone
> know of the N666DF 500B for sale at Aircenter? I have been lusting over it
> for months. Thanks Daryl Wilkins (current owner of N73RT Bellanca
> SuperViking with rajays too)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N700PF(at)aol.com <N700PF(at)aol.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
O.K. you wanna-be Commander Pilots,if ya'll are serious about owning a
true commander,the 680E that was just posted is your chance to own and fly a
piece of history,and at a price(probably much less than I want for
Lucille)far less than any plane close too it would cost.I've sat back and
listened to all of the comparisons you guys have come up with,but I'll tell
ya'll very quickly,there is no way to get a plane that's as easy to operate
and is half as safe as the older Commanders,just ask Milt,for one.Get off
your Butt's and give this guy a call before some non believer trys to buy it
for a time builder or freight hauler.Remember three things-Geared
engine(power) pressure carb(ease of operation)and super-charger(performance
in an instant) BIG AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
>From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
>To: "Allen Reed" ,
>
>Subject: Re: 680E
>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:39:59 -0800
>
>Which price?
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 3:12 PM
>Subject: 680E
>
>
> > O.K. you wanna-be Commander Pilots,if ya'll are serious about owning
>a
> > true commander,the 680E that was just posted is your chance to own and
>fly
>a
> > piece of history,and at a price(probably much less than I want for
> > Lucille)far less than any plane close too it would cost.I've sat back
>and
> > listened to all of the comparisons you guys have come up with,but I'll
>tell
> > ya'll very quickly,there is no way to get a plane that's as easy to
>operate
> > and is half as safe as the older Commanders,just ask Milt,for one.Get
>off
> > your Butt's and give this guy a call before some non believer trys to
>buy
>it
> > for a time builder or freight hauler.Remember three things-Geared
> > engine(power) pressure carb(ease of operation)and
>super-charger(performance
> > in an instant) BIG AL
> >
> >Nico,He never said,I was just trying to get the ball rolling for him.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N700PF(at)aol.com <N700PF(at)aol.com> |
MORE IFO ON THE 680E..............jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
For those of you interested in this one, I have my half of 680E for sale.
Low time engines and airframe. IFR GPS certified. New panels, etc.
Perhaps the cleanest pair of GSO480's around...certainly the driest. For
more info contact me at the below address or phone #.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Doug,
I hate to bear bad news but, based on the market and other 680s you are going to
be lucky to get $65,000 especially if you are looking for a quick sale.
Good luck Im sorry you have to sell such a fine bird.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Hey Gang,Ive been trying to tell ya'll that the price for a Commander in
good shape was too low,just accepted an offer on Lucille for
125,000!!!!!!!Everyone needs to wake up and quit giving these grand ole
Ladys away. BIG AL p.s. I'll still have access to the ole gal.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
Look out world, It's Big Al the Big Plane broker!!!
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:48 AM
Subject: 680E
> Hey Gang,Ive been trying to tell ya'll that the price for a Commander in
> good shape was too low,just accepted an offer on Lucille for
> 125,000!!!!!!!Everyone needs to wake up and quit giving these grand ole
> Ladys away. BIG AL p.s. I'll still have access to the ole gal.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
Hi Gang!
Hey! Just think. How many cases of no-name can you get for US$125K ?
A pretty good price methinks. Our 'International Price Guide' shows
US$25-40K for a 680 Super!
Or, does the price include a wharehouse full of no-name?
Well done Big Al!
Best Regards,
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:48 AM
Subject: 680E
> Hey Gang,Ive been trying to tell ya'll that the price for a Commander in
> good shape was too low,just accepted an offer on Lucille for
> 125,000!!!!!!!Everyone needs to wake up and quit giving these grand ole
> Ladys away. BIG AL p.s. I'll still have access to the ole gal.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | This Week's Flight International |
Hi Gang!
This week's issue of Flight International (27 November - 3 December), has a
Directory on the World Air Forces.
Included on page 60 is a colour photo of a Shrike, with Mexican AF serial
'5168'. Editorial team not exactly on the ball though, as it's captioned as
"Mexico's Navy has a single Mu-2 used as a VIP transport".
Nice one Flight International!
Barry C.
THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY
If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible for
return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other than
the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road, Heathrow
Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
England and Wales.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Lundborg <dltafolk(at)inreach.com> |
HI Group,
I am looking at a few commanders, can anyone tell me what an average
condition 500 with run out engines (2500 hrs each) is worth.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
Hi Folks,
Hope you all had as nice a T day holiday as I did. I really enjoyed and
appreciated all the information you have provided.
I can't find the message now, but someone asked if I had already located the
project aircraft. The short answer is yes, if everything works out to my
satisfaction.
To give you all an idea of what I'm looking at, here is what I know so far
from the pictures and printed info I have. The plane has been in a hangar
for a few years and has no logs. It has a Shrike nose, Winglets, Squared off
tail cap and has had the old radios removed and panel mounts installed. The
radios are all missing, but their trays seem to be intact. The paint and
interior seem good, but it's hard to tell from the pictures, I'm assured
that the engines run good and the plane would be safe to ferry back to my
home base SGU. I will of course confirm as best I can, engine and airframe
condition prior to making an offer.
I understand this is going to be a project and I anticipate spending money
to make the plane top notch. What I want is a usable pressurized aircraft
thats able to cruise at around 200 knots and carry a load. Am I nuts? If you
don't think I'm completely crazy, any tips on what to watch out for would be
greatly appreciated.
Kerry Johnson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Craig,
First read, http://www.aerocommander.com/Documents/things.html.
The first question that comes to mind is how did he get to 2500 hours on
engines that have a TBO of 2000??? What other maintenance items did the
previous owners not do that should have been done???
Major things to look very closely at is anything rubber. Hoses, seals,
tires, hydraulic lines, fuel lines, fuel cells, shock cords on the landing
gear.
Has this aircraft been through a major system overhaul or IRAN???
There are three 500's for sale at this time from $75,000 to $105,000 that
have good engine times.
Work backwards. Engines and props, firewall forward, are going to take the
major portion of $50,000 or more. And that is just an estimate.
How are the radios, AP, IFR GPS, and interior?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Lundborg [mailto:dltafolk(at)inreach.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:33 AM
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: RE: commander $
HI Group,
I am looking at a few commanders, can anyone tell me what an average
condition 500 with run out engines (2500 hrs each) is worth.
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
ONE THING TO BEWARE OF:
Remember the SPAR AD. Has this plane undergone the 25k to 35k
modifications? How is the spar. There was a 3 part Spar AD that is VERY
expensive and requires inspection panels to be installed in the wings.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: <N700PF(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:14 AM
Subject: Fwd: COMMANDER
> MORE IFO ON THE 680E..............jb
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: This Week's Flight International |
In a message dated 11/26/01 07:14:28 Pacific Standard Time,
Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk writes:
>
> Included on page 60 is a colour photo of a Shrike, with Mexican AF serial
> '5168'. Editorial team not exactly on the ball though, as it's captioned as
> "Mexico's Navy has a single Mu-2 used as a VIP transport".
So ... uh .... just which party are we to break the news to that it's NOT an
MU-2?
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Project |
In a message dated 11/26/01 09:35:20 Pacific Standard Time,
kerry(at)kvelectric.com writes:
> Am I nuts? If you
> don't think I'm completely crazy, any tips on what to watch out for would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
Kerry,
You're not any crazier than the rest of us.
Sounds like N800WT to me. Am I right?
If so, be prepared to at least have the hydraulic pumps overhauled and the
Simmonds units done at Central Cylinder.
I say this because I believe those components were field overhauled and may
not be functioning per design.
Get those non-approved wingletts off, also.
I don't want to sound harsh -- but I do want you to have a healthy Commander
that is in conformity.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Sad News in Commanderland |
In case you all haven't heard, that 690A that we lost on Wednesday between Reno,
NV and Wenatchee, WA had Tom Blaesing, owner of Commander Northwest, aboard,
along with his chief pilot, dir. of maintenance, and a friend & the friend's
wife.
Some of you may have met Tom at the Commander University in Scottsdale last March.
Tom was one of the good guys, and fun to be around. Although he was operating
piston & turbine Commanders for business, his passion for flight and love
of Aero Commanders was obvious.
From what I've gathered, Tom's wife was safely at home in Arizona. Please say a
prayer for Tom, his people, and the families of all the lost.
Let's be safe up there.
/John
PS: I'll share info as it comes in on the causes etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the tip, but unless I'm confused, I don't think the AD you are
referring to applies to the 680FP. My understanding although limited, is
that none of the spar AD's apply to the early piston Twin Commanders. As I
understand it, those AD's only apply to the Shrike models as well as the
later 680, 685 and 690 models. I got this information from the FAQ's on the
Aero Commander Web site.
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Intrex [mailto:woodlema(at)intrex.net]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 11:38 AM
To: N700PF(at)aol.com; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: COMMANDER
ONE THING TO BEWARE OF:
Remember the SPAR AD. Has this plane undergone the 25k to 35k
modifications? How is the spar. There was a 3 part Spar AD that is VERY
expensive and requires inspection panels to be installed in the wings.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: <N700PF(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:14 AM
Subject: Fwd: COMMANDER
> MORE IFO ON THE 680E..............jb
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sad News in Commanderland |
In a message dated 11/26/01 12:23:03 Pacific Standard Time, john(at)vormbaum.com
writes:
> In case you all haven't heard, that 690A that we lost on Wednesday between
> Reno, NV and Wenatchee, WA had Tom Blaesing, owner of Commander Northwest,
> aboard, along with his chief pilot, dir. of maintenance, and a friend & the
>
John,
No, I didn't know -- and thank you for the update, as sad as it is.
We've lost an important friend.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
Dear Wing Commander,
Unless the N number has been changed, it's a different bird. The one I'm
looking at is N94WT Serial Number 680FP-1180-93. I assure you, I have no
intention of operating an illegal bird, or even one that isn't healthy.
Where would non approved winglets come from anyway?
Supposing the N number has been changed, do you know this bird?
Regards,
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com [mailto:CloudCraft(at)aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 12:17 PM
To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
Cc: commanderchat@c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: 680FP Project
In a message dated 11/26/01 09:35:20 Pacific Standard Time,
kerry(at)kvelectric.com writes:
Am I nuts? If you
don't think I'm completely crazy, any tips on what to watch out for
would be
greatly appreciated.
Kerry,
You're not any crazier than the rest of us.
Sounds like N800WT to me. Am I right?
If so, be prepared to at least have the hydraulic pumps overhauled and the
Simmonds units done at Central Cylinder.
I say this because I believe those components were field overhauled and
may not be functioning per design.
Get those non-approved wingletts off, also.
I don't want to sound harsh -- but I do want you to have a healthy
Commander that is in conformity.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 11/26/01 12:44:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tylorh(at)sound.net writes:
> The first question that comes to mind is how did he get to 2500 hours on
> engines that have a TBO of 2000??? What other maintenance items did the
> previous owners not do that should have been done???
Hi Tylor; Thought I would comment on the TBO issue. But the TBO on an engine
is a recomendation, and if the eengine is still runing strong there is no
reqirement to overhaul it, (unless you are part 135 or fly for hire) then it
becomes mandatory. Fellows please correct me if I am wrong on thanks
capnspray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 11/26/01 4:38:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kerry(at)kvelectric.com writes:
> Thanks for the tip, but unless I'm confused, I don't think the AD you are
> referring to applies to the 680FP. My understanding although limited, is
> that none of the spar AD's apply to the early piston Twin Commanders. As I
> understand it, those AD's only apply to the Shrike models as well as the
> later 680, 685 and 690 models. I got this information from the FAQ's on the
> Aero Commander Web site
Better recheck your AD's Kerry, Lack of knowledge can be very dangerous and
costly. 6000 hours it must be done.capnspray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
>Hi Tylor; Thought I would comment on the TBO issue. But the TBO on an engine
is a recomendation,
>and if the eengine is still runing strong there is no reqirement to overhaul it,
(unless you are
>part 135 or fly for hire) then it becomes mandatory.
>capnspray
You are absolutely correct.
The little 250hp parallel-valve Lycs on the 500 are well known for
running easily past TBO if they have been well cared for.
I know of one such engine that made 4200 hrs on a Cherokee
(although it had all cylinder replaced at least once).
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Kerry,
There are a number of wing-related ADs and SB's that DO
apply to all Commander models. The one everyone worries most
about only applies to the later models (500U/S, 685, and Turbines).
SB90D has three parts. The first two apply to all Commanders and
involve the lower spar cap where it exits the fuselage.
The nasty part (ultrasound/x-ray) only applies to those late birds
with the extra lower cap and addresses corrosion that can form
between the two parts.
There is another AD which addresses the wing-to-fuselage attach
points and applies to all models. It is due every 6000 hours.
That's the one which requires a hole in the leading edge of the
wing.
I'm going from slightly faded memory, so if I missed anything
important I'm sure someone will step in and correct.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
I was thinking of the IO-540 which is a 1600 hour TBO. Talking to
operators, the IO-540 engine can go up to 2200 hours by 135 operators, but I
am told that 2000 is more realistic. They tell me that the overhaul is less
costly. Things like Cams and lifters are the first to go. I know you can
get oil analyses and run them till they start to make metal. I did fly a
172 that had over 3200 hours on it. But for budget purposes, any thing over
TBO is bonus hours. Don't count on it. The problem of running them long is
that if something does go bad, it can be very bad. Bad is = $$$$$$$$. Not
to mention it leads to Single Engine Flying. More excitement!!!!
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:15 PM
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: commander $
>Hi Tylor; Thought I would comment on the TBO issue. But the TBO on an
engine is a recomendation,
>and if the eengine is still runing strong there is no reqirement to
overhaul it, (unless you are
>part 135 or fly for hire) then it becomes mandatory.
>capnspray
You are absolutely correct.
The little 250hp parallel-valve Lycs on the 500 are well known for
running easily past TBO if they have been well cared for.
I know of one such engine that made 4200 hrs on a Cherokee
(although it had all cylinder replaced at least once).
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 11/26/01 3:46:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tylorh(at)sound.net writes:
> run them till they start to make metal.
HOW MUCH METAL?? How about if you can read a part number on the metal in the
screens?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 11/26/01 15:07:34 Pacific Standard Time, CapnSpray(at)aol.com
writes:
> Better recheck your AD's Kerry, Lack of knowledge can be very dangerous and
> costly. 6000 hours it must be done.capnspray
The inspection required at 6000 hours is based on SB223, which calls for
inspection (and/or replacement) of the bracket at the fuselage and leading
edge of the wing.
The term "spar AD" is getting used as a broad brush to cover several ADs on
wing structure for various models.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | blake hermel <bhermel(at)hotmail.com> |
Anyone care to comment on the insurance part of running a commander after
TBO? What happens if I put her down in a field and twist a little metal,
will I be covered?
Blake
>From: CapnSpray(at)aol.com
>To: tylorh(at)sound.net, dltafolk(at)inreach.com,
>commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Re: commander $
>Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:47:48 EST
>
>In a message dated 11/26/01 12:44:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>tylorh(at)sound.net writes:
>
>
> > The first question that comes to mind is how did he get to 2500 hours on
> > engines that have a TBO of 2000??? What other maintenance items did the
> > previous owners not do that should have been done???
>
>Hi Tylor; Thought I would comment on the TBO issue. But the TBO on an
>engine
>is a recomendation, and if the eengine is still runing strong there is no
>reqirement to overhaul it, (unless you are part 135 or fly for hire) then
>it
>becomes mandatory. Fellows please correct me if I am wrong on thanks
>capnspray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Just wanted to say,Int price guide gives a 680 Super at 25-40thou. O.K. add
350hr. engines and props-40thou each,that makes 85-100thou,add apanel full
of neet stuff-10thou great paint -10thou and anearly new interior-5thou new
clevelands-5thou all new bladders 8thou now figure your time in doing one
as a project ,what, another 20thou.your probably loking at 140-175thou for a
plane that I sold that's sqwack free and ready to fly for 125.Just
think,what can I buy for 125-maybe a 182 or a dutchess or maybe a high-time
Aztec or Lance.I think it's great that these planes can be bought cheap,but
after ya'll put all your time and money in one wouldnt you like to get what
the plane is worth? I went through hards times to keep Lucille,but she now
will have a home like I had for her,and the respect and admiration of all
around her.Long Live The Queen!!!! BIG AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | john williams <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net> |
Big Al,
Congratulations! You did very well in your sale. It doesn't happen every
time. You have to have a buyer that appreciates "YOUR" airplane to get a
price like that.
Many years ago I sold airplanes and did quite well at it. Some items will be
added to the base retail or base wholesale price of a plane. Some items will
not be. If they are then maybe at a fraction of what you actually played for
that item. It can sometimes be very disheartening to a seller to see what he
actually gets for a plane. Oh-did I mention the economy and what it does to
the "market". You did very well! Consider it an early Christmas present to
you! Hope all goes well with your deal.
John Williams
Marathon, Fl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 11:57 PM
Subject: Lucille
> Just wanted to say,Int price guide gives a 680 Super at 25-40thou. O.K.
add
> 350hr. engines and props-40thou each,that makes 85-100thou,add apanel full
> of neet stuff-10thou great paint -10thou and anearly new interior-5thou
new
> clevelands-5thou all new bladders 8thou now figure your time in doing one
> as a project ,what, another 20thou.your probably loking at 140-175thou for
a
> plane that I sold that's sqwack free and ready to fly for 125.Just
> think,what can I buy for 125-maybe a 182 or a dutchess or maybe a
high-time
> Aztec or Lance.I think it's great that these planes can be bought
cheap,but
> after ya'll put all your time and money in one wouldnt you like to get
what
> the plane is worth? I went through hards times to keep Lucille,but she now
> will have a home like I had for her,and the respect and admiration of all
> around her.Long Live The Queen!!!! BIG AL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Ive seen big als lucille in the air and on the ground and she was worth
every penny he got but John is right it has to be worth that to the buyer.
Big Al did good and the new owner got a great plane.
Now we have to rehab Al and get him back in a commander.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: john williams <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net>
To: Allen Reed
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Lucille
> Big Al,
> Congratulations! You did very well in your sale. It doesn't happen every
> time. You have to have a buyer that appreciates "YOUR" airplane to get a
> price like that.
>
> Many years ago I sold airplanes and did quite well at it. Some items will
be
> added to the base retail or base wholesale price of a plane. Some items
will
> not be. If they are then maybe at a fraction of what you actually played
for
> that item. It can sometimes be very disheartening to a seller to see what
he
> actually gets for a plane. Oh-did I mention the economy and what it does
to
> the "market". You did very well! Consider it an early Christmas present to
> you! Hope all goes well with your deal.
>
> John Williams
> Marathon, Fl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 11:57 PM
> Subject: Lucille
>
>
> > Just wanted to say,Int price guide gives a 680 Super at 25-40thou. O.K.
> add
> > 350hr. engines and props-40thou each,that makes 85-100thou,add apanel
full
> > of neet stuff-10thou great paint -10thou and anearly new interior-5thou
> new
> > clevelands-5thou all new bladders 8thou now figure your time in doing
one
> > as a project ,what, another 20thou.your probably loking at 140-175thou
for
> a
> > plane that I sold that's sqwack free and ready to fly for 125.Just
> > think,what can I buy for 125-maybe a 182 or a dutchess or maybe a
> high-time
> > Aztec or Lance.I think it's great that these planes can be bought
> cheap,but
> > after ya'll put all your time and money in one wouldnt you like to get
> what
> > the plane is worth? I went through hards times to keep Lucille,but she
now
> > will have a home like I had for her,and the respect and admiration of
all
> > around her.Long Live The Queen!!!! BIG AL
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
Thank you Big Al,
NOW!! ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS.........
My 1957 560E with midtime engines, new paint, and all AD's can be bought for 99K.
rodd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Before I head to Tenn. I would like to say one more thing.The major obstacle
to owning a commander is the book value of them.I had several people wanting
to buy Lucille but could not get a loan because of the book.I don't want to
hurt the market for someone trying to get a cheap plane,but lets face the
truth,you buy a cheap plane,you get a project,that's not cheap.If any of you
have any influence on the people who put out the book,then send them the
message that we fly the greatest planes in the world and they should be
rated so!! BIG AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com> |
Good Question concerning TBO.
First, read your own policy.
I've yet to have a claim denied while the aircraft operator flew the
engine(s) past
recommended TBO.
However, as stated by several of the group members, any commercial operation
must abide by the TBO stated by the engine manufacture.
I've personally flown a Cessna 421, a Beech 58 (non turbo) past TBO.
I'll fly my 500A, Colemill to TBO and then start looking for a good shop.
The longer you wait, the more expensive the shop rate.
My friend at Flying Magazine stated "Good Luck" anytime you fly past TBO.
He flys a P-210...with almost 9000 hours...He overhauls prior to TBO.
FlySafe and Happy Holidays to all...
Gary Tillman
Aviation Ins; Brokers of North America 800-228-4281
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sad News in Commanderland |
Just a quick update on the news which John posted.
The FAA preliminary report, posted yesterday, shows the Commander to be N900RA,
a Shrike, serial 3070.
Five confirmed on board, which another source quoted as being:
Tom Blaesing - owner of Commander Northwest
Brian White - Director of Maintenance of Commander Northwest
Jody White - his wife
John Topkok - a Commander Northwest pilot
John Peters - co-owner of a Wenatchee area restaurant
They were part of a two-airplane flight, the other aircraft arriving safely.
The FAA report indicates that N900RA was the subject of an ALNOT on 21st November
at 20:30PST, and the wreckage was located on 23rd at the 10,000ft level of
Eagle Peak Mountain. This evidently peaks at 11,845ft and is located in Mono County
in the Sierra Nevada, 18 miles (29km) NW of Mono Lake, Eldorado National
Forest.
Again, the report indicates that, having departed Reno, Nevada for Wenatchee at
18:45, the last ATC clearance was, quote, "Cnld IFR with radar vectors to LKV
at 18:59". Estimated time of the accident was 19:26.
Like John, I'll post any further news on the cause etc.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:15 PM
Subject: Sad News in Commanderland
In case you all haven't heard, that 690A that we lost on Wednesday between Reno,
NV and Wenatchee, WA had Tom Blaesing, owner of Commander Northwest, aboard,
along with his chief pilot, dir. of maintenance, and a friend & the friend's
wife.
Some of you may have met Tom at the Commander University in Scottsdale last March.
Tom was one of the good guys, and fun to be around. Although he was operating
piston & turbine Commanders for business, his passion for flight and love
of Aero Commanders was obvious.
From what I've gathered, Tom's wife was safely at home in Arizona. Please say
a prayer for Tom, his people, and the families of all the lost.
Let's be safe up there.
/John
PS: I'll share info as it comes in on the causes etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sad News in Commanderland |
Barry, thanks...that makes it a Shrike, and not the 690A. Now based on what Jimbob
told us about his conditions about 200nm north of the accident at/around the
same time, icing might have been a factor??
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Sad News in Commanderland
Just a quick update on the news which John posted.
The FAA preliminary report, posted yesterday, shows the Commander to be N900RA,
a Shrike, serial 3070.
Five confirmed on board, which another source quoted as being:
Tom Blaesing - owner of Commander Northwest
Brian White - Director of Maintenance of Commander Northwest
Jody White - his wife
John Topkok - a Commander Northwest pilot
John Peters - co-owner of a Wenatchee area restaurant
They were part of a two-airplane flight, the other aircraft arriving safely.
The FAA report indicates that N900RA was the subject of an ALNOT on 21st November
at 20:30PST, and the wreckage was located on 23rd at the 10,000ft level of
Eagle Peak Mountain. This evidently peaks at 11,845ft and is located in Mono
County in the Sierra Nevada, 18 miles (29km) NW of Mono Lake, Eldorado National
Forest.
Again, the report indicates that, having departed Reno, Nevada for Wenatchee
at 18:45, the last ATC clearance was, quote, "Cnld IFR with radar vectors to LKV
at 18:59". Estimated time of the accident was 19:26.
Like John, I'll post any further news on the cause etc.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:15 PM
Subject: Sad News in Commanderland
In case you all haven't heard, that 690A that we lost on Wednesday between
Reno, NV and Wenatchee, WA had Tom Blaesing, owner of Commander Northwest, aboard,
along with his chief pilot, dir. of maintenance, and a friend & the friend's
wife.
Some of you may have met Tom at the Commander University in Scottsdale last
March. Tom was one of the good guys, and fun to be around. Although he was operating
piston & turbine Commanders for business, his passion for flight and love
of Aero Commanders was obvious.
From what I've gathered, Tom's wife was safely at home in Arizona. Please say
a prayer for Tom, his people, and the families of all the lost.
Let's be safe up there.
/John
PS: I'll share info as it comes in on the causes etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sad News in Commanderland |
This is a mystery! Eagle Peak is way south of Reno by about 125 miles.
Why go south when Wanatchee is in Washington State to the north?
LKV is 162 NM on a heading of 350 from RNO.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum [mailto:john(at)vormbaum.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:01 PM
To: Barry Collman; Commanderchat
Subject: Re: Sad News in Commanderland
Barry, thanks...that makes it a Shrike, and not the 690A. Now based on what
Jimbob told us about his conditions about 200nm north of the accident
at/around the same time, icing might have been a factor??
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Sad News in Commanderland
Just a quick update on the news which John posted.
The FAA preliminary report, posted yesterday, shows the Commander to be
N900RA, a Shrike, serial 3070.
Five confirmed on board, which another source quoted as being:
Tom Blaesing - owner of Commander Northwest
Brian White - Director of Maintenance of Commander Northwest
Jody White - his wife
John Topkok - a Commander Northwest pilot
John Peters - co-owner of a Wenatchee area restaurant
They were part of a two-airplane flight, the other aircraft arriving safely.
The FAA report indicates that N900RA was the subject of an ALNOT on 21st
November at 20:30PST, and the wreckage was located on 23rd at the 10,000ft
level of Eagle Peak Mountain. This evidently peaks at 11,845ft and is
located in Mono County in the Sierra Nevada, 18 miles (29km) NW of Mono
Lake, Eldorado National Forest.
Again, the report indicates that, having departed Reno, Nevada for Wenatchee
at 18:45, the last ATC clearance was, quote, "Cnld IFR with radar vectors to
LKV at 18:59". Estimated time of the accident was 19:26.
Like John, I'll post any further news on the cause etc.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum <mailto:john(at)vormbaum.com>
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:15 PM
Subject: Sad News in Commanderland
In case you all haven't heard, that 690A that we lost on Wednesday between
Reno, NV and Wenatchee, WA had Tom Blaesing, owner of Commander Northwest,
aboard, along with his chief pilot, dir. of maintenance, and a friend & the
friend's wife.
Some of you may have met Tom at the Commander University in Scottsdale last
March. Tom was one of the good guys, and fun to be around. Although he was
operating piston & turbine Commanders for business, his passion for flight
and love of Aero Commanders was obvious.
From what I've gathered, Tom's wife was safely at home in Arizona. Please
say a prayer for Tom, his people, and the families of all the lost.
Let's be safe up there.
/John
PS: I'll share info as it comes in on the causes etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sad News in Commanderland |
could there be more than one peak with the name "eagle" in it?
----- Original Message -----
From: Tylor Hall
To: John Vormbaum ; Barry Collman ; Commanderchat
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: Sad News in Commanderland
This is a mystery! Eagle Peak is way south of Reno by about 125 miles.
Why go south when Wanatchee is in Washington State to the north?
LKV is 162 NM on a heading of 350 from RNO.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum [mailto:john(at)vormbaum.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:01 PM
To: Barry Collman; Commanderchat
Subject: Re: Sad News in Commanderland
Barry, thanks...that makes it a Shrike, and not the 690A. Now based on what Jimbob
told us about his conditions about 200nm north of the accident at/around
the same time, icing might have been a factor??
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Sad News in Commanderland
Just a quick update on the news which John posted.
The FAA preliminary report, posted yesterday, shows the Commander to be N900RA,
a Shrike, serial 3070.
Five confirmed on board, which another source quoted as being:
Tom Blaesing - owner of Commander Northwest
Brian White - Director of Maintenance of Commander Northwest
Jody White - his wife
John Topkok - a Commander Northwest pilot
John Peters - co-owner of a Wenatchee area restaurant
They were part of a two-airplane flight, the other aircraft arriving safely.
The FAA report indicates that N900RA was the subject of an ALNOT on 21st November
at 20:30PST, and the wreckage was located on 23rd at the 10,000ft level of
Eagle Peak Mountain. This evidently peaks at 11,845ft and is located in Mono
County in the Sierra Nevada, 18 miles (29km) NW of Mono Lake, Eldorado National
Forest.
Again, the report indicates that, having departed Reno, Nevada for Wenatchee
at 18:45, the last ATC clearance was, quote, "Cnld IFR with radar vectors to LKV
at 18:59". Estimated time of the accident was 19:26.
Like John, I'll post any further news on the cause etc.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:15 PM
Subject: Sad News in Commanderland
In case you all haven't heard, that 690A that we lost on Wednesday between Reno,
NV and Wenatchee, WA had Tom Blaesing, owner of Commander Northwest, aboard,
along with his chief pilot, dir. of maintenance, and a friend & the friend's
wife.
Some of you may have met Tom at the Commander University in Scottsdale last March.
Tom was one of the good guys, and fun to be around. Although he was operating
piston & turbine Commanders for business, his passion for flight and love
of Aero Commanders was obvious.
From what I've gathered, Tom's wife was safely at home in Arizona. Please say
a prayer for Tom, his people, and the families of all the lost.
Let's be safe up there.
/John
PS: I'll share info as it comes in on the causes etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sad News in Commanderland |
tylorh(at)sound.net said:
>This is a mystery! Eagle Peak is way south of Reno by about 125 miles.
>Why go south when Wanatchee is in Washington State to the north?
>LKV is 162 NM on a heading of 350 from RNO.
>Regards,
There is a peak at 9920ft exactly inline between RNO and LKV (50nm south
of LKV) and the town is called EagleVille. Sometimes locals have a common
name associated for the terrain in the vicinity of the town. This peak is
one of the highest in the area from a line drawn from RNO to KLVK to
KEAT, Wenatchee WA.
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)gte.net> |
Hi guys - just wanted to let you know that there is a manual for
bid on e-bay.com. There is a picture and a detailed description.
Bidding seems reasonable price-wise. The item number is 1036665404, or
you can find it by entering "Aero Commander" in the search field.
Good luck - Jim Jorgensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | garyloff <n27kb(at)erols.com> |
Sadly it's not the airplane but the engines. If you look at the non geared
airplanes their value continues to climb unabated.
Unless you can get the manufacturers to reconsider their decision to not
support them they will continue to bring a fraction of there actual worth.
GL
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 9:11 AM
Subject: Lucille
> Before I head to Tenn. I would like to say one more thing.The major
obstacle
> to owning a commander is the book value of them.I had several people
wanting
> to buy Lucille but could not get a loan because of the book.I don't want
to
> hurt the market for someone trying to get a cheap plane,but lets face the
> truth,you buy a cheap plane,you get a project,that's not cheap.If any of
you
> have any influence on the people who put out the book,then send them the
> message that we fly the greatest planes in the world and they should be
> rated so!! BIG AL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Sad News in Commanderland |
Hello All!
There are indeed two mountains called Eagle Peak. The other one, mentioned
by Tylor, is not the one involved. That one is situated in the Gila
National Forest in western New Mexico. It 'only' rises to some 9,802ft
(2,988m) and is in the Tularosa Mountains, 11 miles (18km) East of Reserve,
West of Continental Divide. Incidentally, another can be found in west
Texas, near the Rio Grande.
The town of Eagleville is the nearest one to the accident site.
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
Tylor Hall
,
Barry
net> Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>,
Commanderchat
27/11/2001
21:36 cc:
Subject: RE: Sad News in Commanderland
This is a mystery! Eagle Peak is way south of Reno by about 125 miles.
Why go south when Wanatchee is in Washington State to the north?
LKV is 162 NM on a heading of 350 from RNO.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum [mailto:john(at)vormbaum.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:01 PM
To: Barry Collman; Commanderchat
Subject: Re: Sad News in Commanderland
Barry, thanks...that makes it a Shrike, and not the 690A. Now based on
what Jimbob told us about his conditions about 200nm north of the
accident at/around the same time, icing might have been a factor??
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Sad News in Commanderland
Just a quick update on the news which John posted.
The FAA preliminary report, posted yesterday, shows the Commander to
be N900RA, a Shrike, serial 3070.
Five confirmed on board, which another source quoted as being:
Tom Blaesing - owner of Commander Northwest
Brian White - Director of Maintenance of Commander Northwest
Jody White - his wife
John Topkok - a Commander Northwest pilot
John Peters - co-owner of a Wenatchee area restaurant
They were part of a two-airplane flight, the other aircraft arriving
safely.
The FAA report indicates that N900RA was the subject of an ALNOT on
21st November at 20:30PST, and the wreckage was located on 23rd at
the 10,000ft level of Eagle Peak Mountain. This evidently peaks at
11,845ft and is located in Mono County in the Sierra Nevada, 18 miles
(29km) NW of Mono Lake, Eldorado National Forest.
Again, the report indicates that, having departed Reno, Nevada for
Wenatchee at 18:45, the last ATC clearance was, quote, "Cnld IFR with
radar vectors to LKV at 18:59". Estimated time of the accident was
19:26.
Like John, I'll post any further news on the cause etc.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:15 PM
Subject: Sad News in Commanderland
In case you all haven't heard, that 690A that we lost on Wednesday
between Reno, NV and Wenatchee, WA had Tom Blaesing, owner of
Commander Northwest, aboard, along with his chief pilot, dir. of
maintenance, and a friend & the friend's wife.
Some of you may have met Tom at the Commander University in
Scottsdale last March. Tom was one of the good guys, and fun to be
around. Although he was operating piston & turbine Commanders for
business, his passion for flight and love of Aero Commanders was
obvious.
From what I've gathered, Tom's wife was safely at home in Arizona.
Please say a prayer for Tom, his people, and the families of all the
lost.
Let's be safe up there.
/John
PS: I'll share info as it comes in on the causes etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Sad News in Commanderland |
Since the FAA originally posted information on the loss of N900RA, the
following amendments have been made:
AIRCRAFT SUBJECT OF ALNOT ON 11/21 AT 2030PST, ON IFR FLIGHT FROM RENO TO
EAT. PILOT TOLD CONTROLLER HE WANTED 12,500 FOR ALTITUDE, WAS TOLD MIA WAS
14,000. PILOT CANX IFR STATING HE WAS VFR ON TOP. WRECKAGE LOCATED ON 11/23
AT 10,000 FT LEVEL OF EAGLE PEAK MOUNTAIN, 5 FATAL, EAGLEVILLE, CA.
The 'Last Clearance" section now quotes:
RADAR CONTACT LOST UNABLE FURTHER FLT FOLLOWING, SQUAWK VFR, FREQ CHANGE
APRVD
Weather, originally not posted, is now shown as "Unavailable".
Of course, the NTSB investigation will reveal further information in due
course.
Barry C.
Barry Collman
<barry.collman@air-brit To: Commanderchat
ain.co.uk>
cc:
27/11/2001 20:38 Subject: Re: Sad News in
Commanderland
Just a quick update on the news which John posted.
The FAA preliminary report, posted yesterday, shows the Commander to be
N900RA, a Shrike, serial 3070.
Five confirmed on board, which another source quoted as being:
Tom Blaesing - owner of Commander Northwest
Brian White - Director of Maintenance of Commander Northwest
Jody White - his wife
John Topkok - a Commander Northwest pilot
John Peters - co-owner of a Wenatchee area restaurant
They were part of a two-airplane flight, the other aircraft arriving
safely.
The FAA report indicates that N900RA was the subject of an ALNOT on 21st
November at 20:30PST, and the wreckage was located on 23rd at the 10,000ft
level of Eagle Peak Mountain. This evidently peaks at 11,845ft and is
located in Mono County in the Sierra Nevada, 18 miles (29km) NW of Mono
Lake, Eldorado National Forest.
Again, the report indicates that, having departed Reno, Nevada for
Wenatchee at 18:45, the last ATC clearance was, quote, "Cnld IFR with radar
vectors to LKV at 18:59". Estimated time of the accident was 19:26.
Like John, I'll post any further news on the cause etc.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: Commanderchat
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:15 PM
Subject: Sad News in Commanderland
In case you all haven't heard, that 690A that we lost on Wednesday between
Reno, NV and Wenatchee, WA had Tom Blaesing, owner of Commander Northwest,
aboard, along with his chief pilot, dir. of maintenance, and a friend &
the friend's wife.
Some of you may have met Tom at the Commander University in Scottsdale
last March. Tom was one of the good guys, and fun to be around. Although
he was operating piston & turbine Commanders for business, his passion for
flight and love of Aero Commanders was obvious.
From what I've gathered, Tom's wife was safely at home in Arizona. Please
say a prayer for Tom, his people, and the families of all the lost.
Let's be safe up there.
/John
PS: I'll share info as it comes in on the causes etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
Hi all,
Has anyone had experience putting a Commander through a C of A? There is
what appears to be a nice 680F listed for sale, that needs a C of A. I might
be interested in it, if the 680FP's I'm looking at don't pan out, but I've
never had anything to do with C of A.
Regards,
Kerry Johnson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: C of A For 680F |
Thanks Jim,
I have seen planes like this before and always wondered what "needs C of A"
meant. Doesn't sound like anything I want to tackle.
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com [mailto:YOURTCFG(at)aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:07 PM
To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
Subject: Re: C of A For 680F
HI KERRY
I have studied this and can tell you it is a really big deal. You
will need to confirm EVERY part of the airplane conforms with it's TCDS or
has appropriate FAA APPROVED paperwork. To do this, you will need to hire a
DER (@ $50-100 per hour) to confirm this and all paperwork is in order. I
had considered bringing a 680F in from Canada and was told to plan on at
least 6 months before a new airwortiness cert. would be issued.
It certainly can be done, but it is nor easy or cheap and if a major
discrepancy is found (like a belly repair that does not conform to FAA
standards) it can be disastrous.
Call Morris Kernick 510- 783-3028 for more info. Good
Luck..........jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Congrats Chris!!!!! Just remember if you do run across any problems Big
Crunk, myself, Oil Slick, and Big Al can run and help with about 12 hours
notice.
Don't forget to call Big Al, he probably has some more "no name" by now.
Since his kid poured the last batch into a car radiator thinking it was
water. (By the way, he said that was the last time he would keep it in the
garage in an unmarked container beside the antifreeze........LESSON
LEARNED!!!!)
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com <MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com> |
Chris,
I saw your bird in TN. Look forward to seeing the finished product. "COTM" maybe!?!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
That's about it, Nico!
ALNOT is the abbreviation for "Alert Notice". This is the notice generated
by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) either at a Flight Service
Station (AFSS), or at the Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC). This
is the most severe of 3 levels of notification issued by the FAA and always
demands immediate attention. ALNOTs are issued whenever:
An aircraft is overdue at its destination
An aircraft does not report when required
An aircraft disappears from the radar
A family member or friend reports a pilot missing
Anytime an Air Traffic Controller feels there is a reason to activate
the nations SAR forces in preparation for an emergency
Let's pray that this abbreviation is never used again in association with
Commanderland.
Incidentally, the first two levels of notification are QALQ, then INREQ.
Further information can be found at:
http://nwp.natca.net/Administration/Documents/Airtrafficpublications/FSS/Ch8/chapter8%20TOC.htm
Barry C.
Nico
,
Commander
g> BSChat Chat
cc:
29/11/2001 Subject: RE: ALNOT
03:19
It is an Alert Notice usually issued to alert the search and rescue of an
overdue aircraft.
Do I remember that correctly?
Nico
-----Original Message-----
From: N414C [SMTP:N414C(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 5:27 PM
To: Commander BSChat Chat
Subject: ALNOT
What is an ALNOT?
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John D Williams <keyscrusing(at)mindspring.com> |
Congrads Chris on the engines!
I just traded some stuff for a cabin and 5 acres on the Jackson Co Airport in Tenn.
Is that close to anyone up there? I'm going to run up there in the next couple
of weeks to take a look. I you see this butt ugly yellow 560 sitting on
the ramp up there it's me. Stop in and say hi!
John
Fla Keys
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Operating Costs |
Thats about right for fuel, but what about everything else?
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Lundborg [mailto:dltafolk(at)inreach.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 4:21 PM
To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
Subject: RE: Operating Costs
Morris has it down...You carry four 55gal. barrels on your wings and
figure cutting loose an empty one every hour!
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Johnson [mailto:kerry(at)kvelectric.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 01:25 PM
To: 'Commander Chat'
Subject: Operating Costs
Hi Folks,
It seems like I have seen a spread sheet of what a 680, 680F & 680FP costs
to operate, but I can't seem to locate it. Anyone know where I could find
this information?
Thanks,
Kerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Operating Costs |
I know that's tongue-in-cheek, but between 29-34 gal/hr. block to block is
what I get in 680E, which just so happens to be a 680E. TAS is between
165-180 with those burns.
Barry Hancock
Precision Flight Networks
(949) 300-5510
bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
> From: Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
> Reply-To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:22:20 -0700
> To: 'Craig Lundborg'
> Cc: 'Commander Chat'
> Subject: RE: Operating Costs
>
> Thats about right for fuel, but what about everything else?
>
> Kerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig Lundborg [mailto:dltafolk(at)inreach.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 4:21 PM
> To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
> Subject: RE: Operating Costs
>
>
> Morris has it down...You carry four 55gal. barrels on your wings and
> figure cutting loose an empty one every hour!
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kerry Johnson [mailto:kerry(at)kvelectric.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 01:25 PM
> To: 'Commander Chat'
> Subject: Operating Costs
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> It seems like I have seen a spread sheet of what a 680, 680F & 680FP costs
> to operate, but I can't seem to locate it. Anyone know where I could find
> this information?
>
> Thanks,
> Kerry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Operating Costs |
Been following along with your discussions... I operate my 680F at 75%
power settings, and get about 52 to 55 gph, with true airspeed of 190 kph.
Just humms along. I'll be flying from San Luis Obispo, CA (SBP) to Eureka,
CA (ACV) tomorrow, and back...probably get close to 52 gph for the two hour
legs.
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock <bdogltd(at)pacbell.net>
To: ; 'Craig Lundborg'
Cc: 'Commander Chat'
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Operating Costs
> I know that's tongue-in-cheek, but between 29-34 gal/hr. block to block is
> what I get in 680E, which just so happens to be a 680E. TAS is between
> 165-180 with those burns.
>
> Barry Hancock
> Precision Flight Networks
> (949) 300-5510
> bdogltd(at)pacbell.net
>
>
> > From: Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
> > Reply-To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
> > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:22:20 -0700
> > To: 'Craig Lundborg'
> > Cc: 'Commander Chat'
> > Subject: RE: Operating Costs
> >
> > Thats about right for fuel, but what about everything else?
> >
> > Kerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Craig Lundborg [mailto:dltafolk(at)inreach.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 4:21 PM
> > To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
> > Subject: RE: Operating Costs
> >
> >
> > Morris has it down...You carry four 55gal. barrels on your wings and
> > figure cutting loose an empty one every hour!
> > Craig
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kerry Johnson [mailto:kerry(at)kvelectric.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 01:25 PM
> > To: 'Commander Chat'
> > Subject: Operating Costs
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > It seems like I have seen a spread sheet of what a 680, 680F & 680FP
costs
> > to operate, but I can't seem to locate it. Anyone know where I could
find
> > this information?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kerry
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Operating Costs |
In a message dated 11/29/01 6:07:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes:
> and get about 52 to 55 gph
THANKS RANDY......
That seems about right. Morris used to say that if you
fly a 680F, FL etc, "just imagine that you have a bunch of 55 gallon drums of
fuel tied to the top of your airplane and once each hour, you push one
overboard" I get about the same performance Barry is reporting. 32-36 GPH @
175 - 190 MPH. It will go much faster but at what cost?? To this you should
add about $20 per hour for "stuff" annuals, maintenance, etc., + ABOUT, $40
per hour for engine reserve ($60K / 1400hr)
That looks like about, lets see, about $135 for the 680E and about
$170 for the "F" Doesn't include fixed cost like hangar (if you are lucky
enough to have one) and insurance.
Hope that helps.. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)gte.net> |
Hi to you all - I was wondering if anyone knows of a "legal"
turbo option for an AC 500? Also, any idea how Gary Gadberry's 500 got
the 3-bladed props? Somebody has said a "one time STC," but if you can
get it once, why can't you get it again?
Thanks for any ideas - Jim Jorgensen (Seattle)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbo Options?? |
Hi All!
The Model 500, serial 740, N800SL, which Gary Gadberry has for sale,
appears to still have the original O-540-A2B engines, but early in 1985 was
fitted with Hartzell HC-A3VK-2B/V7636D propellers. Perhaps, instead of
being a "one time STC", an STC which was used only once is more like it?
The STC number was SA1735SO.
However, when it received another CofA in 1994, the propellers were quoted
as 'HD-82XK-2B1', which I think is a clerical error.
Another Model 500, serial 618, N8777G, was fitted with Hartzell
HC-A3VK-2B/V7636D-4 3-blade propellers in 1967, and STC number SA1547WE was
approved for Kensair on November 17th that year. This is the first Model
500 built, and is still registered as N8777G to Maria Elena Alvarez, in
Miami, Florida. Anyone seen it lately?
Another Model 500, serial 654, N6241B, was fitted with IO-470-E engines
circa June 1959, but these were removed and standard O-540-A2B engines
replaced them. This was later exported to South Africa (Nico-ville!!) and
was destroyed in an accident at Grand Central airport in 1974.
Another, serial 639, N6226B, had Lycoming IO-540-A1A5, turbocharged, with
Hartzell HC-A3VK-2B propellers, installed in 1964 under a Riley Aeronautics
project, and an STC, number SA257CE was approved on August 27th 1964.
Additionally, in 1967, the MTOW was increased from 6,000lb to 6,500lb under
STC SA377SO. This Commander also received the Gadberry make-over in 1995,
with "Shrike" tailcone and vertical tip, Miller nose, and cockpit overhead
windows. Is currently registered to D Wayne Durham, in Easley, South
Carolina.
Very Best Regards,
Barry Collman
res00rbl
cc:
Subject: Turbo Options??
30/11/2001
03:18
Hi to you all ? I was wondering if anyone knows of a "legal"
turbo option for an AC 500? Also, any idea how Gary Gadberry's 500 got the
3-bladed props? Somebody has said a "one time STC," but if you can get it
once, why can't you get it again?
Thanks for any ideas ? Jim Jorgensen (Seattle)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | al hoffman <alh1(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbo Options?? |
--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: al hoffman <alh1(at)juno.com>
To: Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:20:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Turbo Options??
i have a commander 500, n628ah formerly n6287b, s/n 682. i am formerly
with palm beach aviatiion who was at one time the largest operator of
500's in the world. we still have five based at lna. 40c, 32c, 36c,
41c mine and one other. two have recently failed the spar inspection and
were scrapped. i will get the numbers for you. where does your
information come from?
we have more experience with the 500 in my opinion than anyone in the
world as we can account for 10 of the fleet of about 100. everything
that can go wrong with them has happened to us, including two propeller
failures that led to the hartzel ad and replacement. i would like to
exchange information with the group. do you have a 500?
three bladed props are a waste of money. you do not improve the
performance. the aircraft may be quieter, but the prop is 1/3 more
expensive to overhaul and purchase (even assuming you can get the stc for
free) and reduces the net weight because it is heavier.
al hoffman
________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Now it sounds like the sky is falling.
What were these planes used for and where? Were they high time? Did both
fail the same year?
Milt
> --------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: al hoffman <alh1(at)juno.com>
> To: Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:20:49 -0500
> Subject: Re: Turbo Options??
>
two have recently failed the spar inspection and
> were scrapped. i will get the numbers for you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Gail and I had dinner with Big Crunk night before last. He looks like an older
wiser version of oil slick. Maybe there is hope for the kid yet./
My luck has finally changed and we got to spend 3 hours with him without my beeper
going off. If it wasn't for being on call and him flying the next day we
could have sat there all night and listened to his hangar stories.
Yesterday he was off on leg 2 of a 4 day flight to Pensacola to maybe see big AL.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbo Options?? |
Need I say I'm not surprised that it would be Sir Barry that
would deliver the first response . . . thanks so much, Barry. Jim
Jorgensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Commander wing inspection failure |
All,
I'm discussing the issues surrounding the inspection failure of the
500 which Al Hoffman mentioned. After all the info is gathered, I'll
post a summary here so that we don't all bombard Al with emails.
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbo Options?? |
Thanks, Al. Sounds like you've "been there - done that." Do
you have first hand experience with a turbo modification? If so, what
unit and what benefits?
Thanks - Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Max Schuermann <max(at)greencis.net> |
A bit of information for who ever is interested in where some Commanders
are located and what their fate is---
680 Commander s/n680-360-48, N517AC and---
560A Commander s/n 289 (reg removed)----
are both in Tulsa, Oklahoma at the Spartin Aviation school being used as
maintenance training aids. :>(
Max
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: where they are |
Hi Max et al!
Many thanks for the info Max, as it highlighted a little lack of attention to detail
on my part.
Serial 289 was originally built as a 560A and was modified by October 1972 to HC560A.
As N104LD, it was sold to Spectrum Surety Associates Inc., in Florence,
Alabama on February 1st 1984. However a 'field report' from a roving reporter
showed it to be with Spartan Aviation School in August last year and I had omitted
to withdraw it from use.
Similarly, Serial 680-360-48, N517AC, was sold to Spartan Aviation School on a
date as yet unknown, but registered on August 20th this year. Again, I had omitted
to mark my records as it being permanently withdrawn from use.
As a penance, I will now learn the Model 520 Maintenance Manual by heart and walk
to next year's Fly-In!
Thanks again Max, these reports are really very useful.
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Max Schuermann
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 10:53 PM
Subject: where they are
A bit of information for who ever is interested in where some Commanders are
located and what their fate is---
680 Commander s/n680-360-48, N517AC and---
560A Commander s/n 289 (reg removed)----
are both in Tulsa, Oklahoma at the Spartin Aviation school being used as maintenance
training aids. :>(
Max
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: where they are |
In a message dated 12/01/01 06:51:56 Pacific Standard Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
> As a penance, I will now learn the Model 520 Maintenance Manual by heart and
>
That's a bit harsh, Sir Barry.
You will be serving your penance if you learn the Model 520 Flight Manual by
heart. It's only about 6 pages ... you can memorize it whilst you wait in
the boarding lounge next year.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/1/01 7:35:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
> It's only about 6 pages
>
> And it is twice as big as the flight manual!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <thall5(at)kc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Thank you for your support |
Barry,
I just received in the post copies of the 337s for 680FL-1794-149.
I can see what has happened. The original 337 for the conversion to Mr. RPM
lists the wrong STC number.
I am not sure the FAA cares about this minor change since the aircraft is
not registered in the US.
It may come up in a C of A if the aircraft comes back to the US.
I will send them a letter explaining the error with copies of both STCs
that Mr. RPM owns covering the IO-720 conversion. That should clear up the
problem and be included in the logs for future reference.
I did not see a 337 for the cargo door? Did you find anything?
Thank you again.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS.......
I want to welcome a new TCFG member. Daryl Wilkins from linden
CA was sent to us by Chris and is a fellow Viking driver, but me thinks not
for long. He has admitted that he has his lovely brides approval AND he has
a bunch of Commander photos on the refrigerator. Can the sound of a pair of
Lycomings be far off? I think not!!
Welcome Daryl, and we will be looking for an airplane for you! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
> I want to welcome a new TCFG member. Daryl Wilkins from linden
> CA was sent to us by Chris and is a fellow Viking driver
Trust me guys....when you convert a Viking owner to another type,
you have truely done something impressive :-)
Having been fortunate enough to get some stick time in just about
every light single/twin, I can tell you that there isn't anything
that flies like a Viking. Of course, as we all know, there isn't
another airplane that will do the things a Commander will do!
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Miss Dec is now online for your enjoyment. She's Milt's
beautiful 685. Milt has provided an excellent write-up on the
685 as well as some of the nicest pictures to date!
Thanks also to everyone else who has submitted for COTM. I'll
post in order received. I have Jan and Feb covered - keep 'em
coming!
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
THANKS MILT .....for the great write up on the 685. I am starting to
understand, like you, that it is the most misunderstood (and the quietist)
Commander of them all. JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Moe Mills 680 FP Shrike nose Installation
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
I just want everyone to know the really handsome guy in the LEFT seat is me.
The one on the right is our fearless leader.
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: COTM
> THANKS MILT .....for the great write up on the 685. I am starting to
> understand, like you, that it is the most misunderstood (and the quietist)
> Commander of them all. JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Great Photos. And a good write up.
What is the "rest of the story" from your Single Engine Experience??? What
broke?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: N414C [mailto:N414C(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 2:32 PM
To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: COTM
I just want everyone to know the really handsome guy in the LEFT seat is me.
The one on the right is our fearless leader.
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: COTM
> THANKS MILT .....for the great write up on the 685. I am starting to
> understand, like you, that it is the most misunderstood (and the quietist)
> Commander of them all. JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
It appears to have been failure of the engine driven fuel pump. It had just
been rebuilt.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net>
To: N414C ; ;
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 3:07 PM
Subject: RE: COTM
> Great Photos. And a good write up.
>
> What is the "rest of the story" from your Single Engine Experience???
What
> broke?
>
> Regards,
>
> Tylor Hall
> tylorh(at)sound.net
> 913-422-8869
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: N414C [mailto:N414C(at)cableone.net]
> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 2:32 PM
> To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Subject: Re: COTM
>
> I just want everyone to know the really handsome guy in the LEFT seat is
me.
> The one on the right is our fearless leader.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 11:42 AM
> Subject: COTM
>
>
> > THANKS MILT .....for the great write up on the 685. I am starting to
> > understand, like you, that it is the most misunderstood (and the
quietist)
> > Commander of them all. JB
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/02/01 12:39:20 Pacific Standard Time,
N414C(at)cableone.net writes:
> I just want everyone to know the really handsome guy in the LEFT seat is me.
>
As viewed from which direction?
As Richard Nixon would have said, "I just want to make one thing perfeclty
clear:" The the story I have about dead-sticking an AC-685 into a field is
NOT about me.
My reputation is bad enough -- I don't need that added to it.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/2/01 6:07:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
<< My reputation is bad enough -- I don't need that added to it.
Wing Commander Gordon >>
And like admitting that you have pass words for 163 different prono web sites
locked up in your flight bag in deep storage wasn't bad enough either huh???
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Wow Milt, that is more of an involved nose job than I had to get after to
much "No Name" one night in high school. I decided to stand up the guy who
was picking on me all the time while he was holding a baseball bat........NOT
PRETTY. The story any way. Doc. Thompson fixed me right up. I guess that I
thought you could just change the nose bowl forward of the landing
lights.???? That picture shows the entire nose gear support to be changed
out as well huh????
CONGRATS DR. MILT ON COMMANDER OF THE MONTH!!!!!! She is mighty
pretty!!!!!!!
P.S. Dont feel bad about your fuel pump. at least it lasted that long!!!!
Crunk SR, and Oil Slick put a new fuel pump in the 520 and it never worked
once!!!!!!!.....pour fuel into 520........fuel runs out case drain of new
fuel pump on 520........Make Crunk Sr. REALYY MAD!!!!!!!!
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Prono......Porno......if you have 265 web site pass words it all kind of runs
together huh????
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
Got to share this flight with you...
Had a business trip from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to ACV (Arcata/Eureka,
CA) on Friday. Wheels up at 0800, first leg to Concord, CA (CCR) to pick up
my client, then north to the hinterlands of northern California...arriving
in Eureka around 11AM with the ILS Runway 32 approach, circle to land runway
14. Conditions were 5000 overcast and grey grey grey. Took care of
business, grabbed some lunch at Marie Callanders, and were back at the
airport by around 1530 in rain and dark skies. After fueling up the 680F and
a clearance from Seattle Center, we were headed south east for the Bay Area
in solid IFR with rain, snow, and light rime ice at 11,000. Warm and cozy
in 6253X, we just trundled along at 190 knots true...the Commander seemed
happy as a clam. Skies finally cleared just north of the Bay Area and we
made the visual Runway 19R approach into Concord at about 1730. The last
leg was a flight to remember...departure to the southeast with a gorgous
sunset to the west, the full moom rising in the east, and the lights of the
San Francisco Bay area twinkling below from 11,500 feet. Temperature
outside 18 degrees F, but warm and comfy inside...what an experience. Felt
like Peter Pan soaring over London. Arrived in SBP around 1830...total time
4.5 hours on the hobbs for over 800 nautical miles. Sometimes I have to
pinch myself to make sure it's me who's sitting up there in that wonderful
flying machine...my Twin Commander 680F.
Thought you Commander guys might relate...
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
Gday to all in Commanderland!
Twelve months ago we had the very good fortune of inducting our beloved Wing
Commander into this chat group.
Over this time WC Gordon has generously shared his immense wealth of Twin
Commander knowledge with us, and I for one am in awe of his operational and
type specific knowledge.
Please join me all in a big thankyou to Keith for his good humour and
keeping us flying like the wind!
Thaaanks Keith!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/02/01 20:06:24 Pacific Standard Time, JET PAUL writes:
> Prono......Porno......if you have 265 web site pass words it all kind of
> runs together huh????
>
True. But at least I don't have to answer to an insurance company or the
NTSB ...
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
I also enjoyed the pictures and write up. I have a couple of questions (what
else would you expect from a newbie). Why is the 685 the quietist? Is it
because the props are stationed farther away from the cabin?
You also said in your write up; "When looking for a replacement for my 560 I
needed a good traveling machine with all weather capability. It needed to
carry 4-5 full size adults, baggage, and be able to go a long way. Of course
it had to be a Twin Commander. This left a choice between a turbine and the
685."
I have the same requirements, and am looking at some 680FP's. What part of
your requirements is the 680FP lacking in? Is the passenger compartment too
small for 4 adults?
Maybe I will find out the answer my self this Wednesday when we go inspect
N94WT, but I would appreciate your input.
Thanks again for the great pictures and write up.
Regards,
Kerry Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com [mailto:YOURTCFG(at)aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:43 AM
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: COTM
THANKS MILT .....for the great write up on the 685. I am starting to
understand, like you, that it is the most misunderstood (and the quietist)
Commander of them all. JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: great flight |
THANKS FOR SHARING!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Regarding the 500 spar which failed inspection that Allan mentioned
earlier:
The airplane in question had been operated in an "extreme" environment
(high weights, tropical weather, 13,000+hours) for much of it's life.
The spar cap failed an eddy-current inspection. The consensus is that
the failure was primarily due to the extraordinary life this airplane
had endured and not due to any typical "wear and tear". Also,
corrosion appears to have been a substantial contributing factor.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS.........
I few months ago someone posted a couple of photos of Ice on a
Commander. I would like to hear from you or anybody with good photos of ice
on a commander. If nor, I will have to go fly triple two in the ice and take
some (BUUUUUUUUURR!!) Thanks jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WilliamPeper(at)cs.com <WilliamPeper(at)cs.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Re: COTMAbsolutely!
But we really would like a copy of the passwords to some of those sites.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Legg
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: COTM
G'day to all in Commanderland!
Twelve months ago we had the very good fortune of inducting our beloved Wing
Commander into this chat group.
Over this time WC Gordon has generously shared his immense wealth of Twin Commander
knowledge with us, and I for one am in awe of his operational and type
specific knowledge.
Please join me all in a big thankyou to Keith for his good humour and keeping
us flying like the wind!
Thaaanks Keith!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
> ... and I for one am in awe of his operational and type specific knowledge.
>
You flatter me, Mate.
It's all chalked up to a misspent youth. And adulthood.
I'm just a serious student of Commanders and there are guys around who know
way more than I do; I guess I'm the only one that feels compelled to share
the knowledge.
What ever I do know, I owe to the clients I've had over the years who have
welcomed me into their Commanders and allowed me the chance to fly all models
and several of each model, at that.
Oh -- and I shall say it again: Without Morris Kernick, there would be no me.
Since 1978, he's always been there to answer my questions and early on,
believed in me enough to toss me into the various models and let me
experiment, learn and then teach.
Dick Wartinger is a heroic figure in my life and I'm honored to consider him
a mentor and friend.
The fun of it now, is getting to know each of you via this email net and Twin
Commander Flight Group events and watching all of the aircraft receive the
attention they deserve.
Carry on, lads!
And thanks, again, Russell.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | aeroshell recall |
FYI, there is a recall on certain batches of AeroShell oil
due to contamination. Check out the avweb web site
http://www.avweb.com
for further info.
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | blake hermel <bhermel(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi all,
Just to let you know, I called Paul at Aeroshell, he said,
"If your sure that you bought the oil between the dates listed, drain it and
change the filter."
simple enough!
Blake Hermel
>From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
>To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: aeroshell recall
>Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 20:13:35 -0600
>
>FYI, there is a recall on certain batches of AeroShell oil
>due to contamination. Check out the avweb web site
>http://www.avweb.com
>for further info.
>
>chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | garyloff <n27kb(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB |
>
> BE CAREFUL WHO TOWS YOUR AIRPLANE
--
> ----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB |
I hope that the "FBO" has insurance to cover the obviously negligent line
person.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "garyloff" <n27kb(at)erols.com>
To: "Commander Chat"
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 12:05 AM
Subject: Fw: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB
>
> >
> > BE CAREFUL WHO TOWS YOUR AIRPLANE
>
> --
> > ----
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB |
Gary, PLEASE tell me this wasn't your airplane!!!!
In fact, I sincerely hope it didn't happen to anyone in the TCFG!
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: "garyloff" <n27kb(at)erols.com>
To: "Commander Chat"
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:05 PM
Subject: Fw: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB
>
> >
> > BE CAREFUL WHO TOWS YOUR AIRPLANE
>
> --
> > ----
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB |
According to Landings.com N999GB belongs to Ram Air, Inc. Anchorage, AK. It
is a 500U.
To those new to this list, there is a document on the web site of how to tow
a Twin Commander. FYI
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum [mailto:john(at)vormbaum.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 12:04 AM
To: Commander Chat
Subject: Re: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB
Gary, PLEASE tell me this wasn't your airplane!!!!
In fact, I sincerely hope it didn't happen to anyone in the TCFG!
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: "garyloff" <n27kb(at)erols.com>
To: "Commander Chat"
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:05 PM
Subject: Fw: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB
>
> >
> > BE CAREFUL WHO TOWS YOUR AIRPLANE
>
> --
> > ----
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | service disruption |
All,
We're in the process of changing to a new service provider
for our T1 connection. Due to the DNS changeover, there have
been a few postings that were not properly delivered - mainly
to bellsouth addresses. Some ISPs require a "reverse lookup"
before accepting email (which is "against the rules") before
accepting email and this function failed as I had multiple
routes during the changeover. My appologies for the
inconvenience. I believe all the issues are now fixed.
Chris Schuermann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: great flight |
I ain't real sure.........BUT IF YOU CAN SOUND LIKE YOU WOULD MAKE LOVE TO
YOUR AIRPLANE.............YOU MIGHT BE A RNCP!!!!!!!!
It's just a shame you spent all that time going north and south. Hell you
could have been in Dallas in the same amount of time. And that's half way to
Atlanta?? What were you thinking????? Milt??? Big Al??? Can I have an
Amen???
Nice job Randy!!!!
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Max Schuermann <max(at)greencis.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB |
My odds are one the parking brake being set.
Max
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> But then again, perhaps his foot slipped off the clutch. Let's be kind.
>
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "garyloff" <n27kb(at)erols.com>
> To: "Commander Chat"
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:05 PM
> Subject: Fw: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB
>
> >
> > >
> > > BE CAREFUL WHO TOWS YOUR AIRPLANE
> >
> > --
> > > ----
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: great flight |
Thanks guys for straightening me out,
I guess I was looking at the HSI crooked...I'll try to get it pointed in
right direction next time.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: great flight
> I ain't real sure.........BUT IF YOU CAN SOUND LIKE YOU WOULD MAKE LOVE TO
> YOUR AIRPLANE.............YOU MIGHT BE A RNCP!!!!!!!!
>
> It's just a shame you spent all that time going north and south. Hell you
> could have been in Dallas in the same amount of time. And that's half way
to
> Atlanta?? What were you thinking????? Milt??? Big Al??? Can I have an
> Amen???
>
> Nice job Randy!!!!
>
> JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB |
Ouch!
Reminds me of an experience I had at the Salt Lake Jet Center. I parked my
Aerostar 8236J, there one night while we went to a Jazz game. After the game
the weather was really bad, sleet and freezing rain, so we decided to stay
the night, instead of flying home. I arranged to have my plane put in their
hangar, thinking it would be clean and dry the next morning. Next morning,
we got to the FBO, got a weather briefing, filed my IFR flight plan and then
went with the lineman to get my plane. During the walk around, I noticed the
"water rudder" was bent and squashed, so we couldn't fly the plane anywhere.
I took about an hour before the truth finally came out, seems the lineman
tried to tow 8236J with the tail tiedown still chained to the tarmac. I
guess it was quite a site, he said the nose came about 5' off the ground,
but that the tow bar never came off.
I must say the FBO was very good about taking care of their mistake. They
paid for our flights home on Skywest, plus our motel, all the repairs and my
flight back to pick up the plane. The worst part of the whole experience,
was being without my plane for a month.
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: garyloff [mailto:n27kb(at)erols.com]
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:06 PM
To: Commander Chat
Subject: Fw: NOSE GEAR DISASTER 999GB
>
> BE CAREFUL WHO TOWS YOUR AIRPLANE
--
> ----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS......
I had a really nice, shot, flight yesterday. Needed to go to
Aero Air for a few "O" rings (I have now overhauled all my landing gear
retract cylinders, one at a time). After departing HIO, we took the scenic
rout home down the South bank of the Columbia River. It is a beutiful, very
dense forest and with the passage of cold front, it was covered in snow. We
flew about 20 feet above the tree tops and for as far as the eye could see,
it was like flying over a forest of flocked Christmas trees!! What a hoot!!
I could almost hear Christmas carols playing. Great
fun..............................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry S. Wokral <L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com> |
Hello all,
I just purchased a 500B a month ago. It is presently undergoing post annual
inspection maintenance, and I hope to be able to take delivery of it this
weekend. Does anyone know of or use a commercially prepared operating
checklist similar to the Checkmate checklist? I called the Checkmate folks,
and they haven't developed one for the TC. Are you all using the checklists
directly out of the POH, just using the memory aide CIGAR, or is something
else available.
Thanks,
Larry Wokral
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
Larry;
I have a 560E, and I just took the checklist out of the POH, I copied them
in RED for Emergency and GREEN for Normal (on my computer, with varying
sized print for normal and expanded) took them to a print shop and had them
laminated in plastic and hooked together. I am pleased, not as small and
compact as a B-727, but then I also don't have to get out the book for the
expanded checklist either. I just use one checklist, not a normal and
expanded as a Boeing or Douglas uses.
Don
> [Original Message]
> From: Larry S. Wokral <L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com>
> To: E-Mail List
> Date: 12/4/01 1:31:28 PM
> Subject: Checklists
>
> Hello all,
>
> I just purchased a 500B a month ago. It is presently undergoing post
annual
> inspection maintenance, and I hope to be able to take delivery of it this
> weekend. Does anyone know of or use a commercially prepared operating
> checklist similar to the Checkmate checklist? I called the Checkmate
folks,
> and they haven't developed one for the TC. Are you all using the
checklists
> directly out of the POH, just using the memory aide CIGAR, or is something
> else available.
>
> Thanks,
> Larry Wokral
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
I am not sure if a 560 Checklist is the same, but I will try and scan mine
into the computer and send an e-mail.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry S. Wokral" <L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com>
To: "E-Mail List"
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:31 PM
Subject: Checklists
> Hello all,
>
> I just purchased a 500B a month ago. It is presently undergoing post
annual
> inspection maintenance, and I hope to be able to take delivery of it this
> weekend. Does anyone know of or use a commercially prepared operating
> checklist similar to the Checkmate checklist? I called the Checkmate
folks,
> and they haven't developed one for the TC. Are you all using the
checklists
> directly out of the POH, just using the memory aide CIGAR, or is something
> else available.
>
> Thanks,
> Larry Wokral
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | whatcha want for x-mas??? |
Okay fellow Commander junkies.... I've started up a new
business path in your honor and am soliciting feedback.
I've tasked several of my technical staff to become gurus on
the topic of aircraft parts manufacturing and approvals. My
immediate goal is to select a specific aircraft component to
design and manufacture, then follow the entire process through
acquiring a PMA (and STC if required). My question to you is:
what should I make? In order to limit the responses somewhat,
I'd like to stipulate the following:
- a part/component which is "non-critical" so that we can focus
on the proceedural aspects of obtaining our first PMA
- something with a fairly attractive market (ie: maybe something
that isn't currently available or is hard to find due to demand)
- something not too insanely difficult to produce (for the 1st one)
Any thoughts? Goodyear break pucks? :-)
Thanks
Chris
PS: sorry to anyone that got re-directed to the wrong web site
today. We had a little goof up with our virtual hosts config and
it sent viewers to the C2 homepage rather than the Commander site.
I currently have one physical machine with 15 virtual network
interfaces and during the swap to the new network, a few things
didn't happen smoothly...
If you happen to find anything else broken, please let me know!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS........
We have another new TCFG member in our midst. You all know him
from the list, Nico van Niekerk has joined us. He has a biz called "the
cybersuperstore" Humm, wonder what he does?? Anyway, Nico is an old
Commander pilot that is currently between airplanes. Welcome
Aboard!!...........jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS......
I am working on the next issue of the FGN (to mailed first week
of Jan) and it will be almost exclusively devoted to ICING!! I just returned
from Aero Air and a meeting with both Kevin and Ken regarding this important
issue. Took a bunch of photos as well.
It is almost certain that icing played a role in the tragic loss of
Shrike N900RA (which Kevin had flown 700hrs), and at least out here, the word
"ice" is in every IFR briefing.
Any "I learned about flying in the ice" stories would be appreciated
and considered.
If you are not a member of the TCFG, now is a good time to join so you
wont miss this important issue. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: whatcha want for x-mas??? |
I personally want a Turbo/Renissance Commander. preferable one that was done
withing the last 6 months.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 7:00 PM
Subject: whatcha want for x-mas???
> Okay fellow Commander junkies.... I've started up a new
> business path in your honor and am soliciting feedback.
> I've tasked several of my technical staff to become gurus on
> the topic of aircraft parts manufacturing and approvals. My
> immediate goal is to select a specific aircraft component to
> design and manufacture, then follow the entire process through
> acquiring a PMA (and STC if required). My question to you is:
> what should I make? In order to limit the responses somewhat,
> I'd like to stipulate the following:
>
> - a part/component which is "non-critical" so that we can focus
> on the proceedural aspects of obtaining our first PMA
>
> - something with a fairly attractive market (ie: maybe something
> that isn't currently available or is hard to find due to demand)
>
> - something not too insanely difficult to produce (for the 1st one)
>
> Any thoughts? Goodyear break pucks? :-)
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
> PS: sorry to anyone that got re-directed to the wrong web site
> today. We had a little goof up with our virtual hosts config and
> it sent viewers to the C2 homepage rather than the Commander site.
> I currently have one physical machine with 15 virtual network
> interfaces and during the swap to the new network, a few things
> didn't happen smoothly...
> If you happen to find anything else broken, please let me know!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: whatcha want for x-mas??? |
Hi Chris,
How about a resonably priced sun visor..?? The only one I know that has an
STC for Commanders runs about $900.00 (Made by Rosen) I currently use
green transparent plastic sheets (about 6"x8") which stick to the wind
shield for about $3.50.
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:00 PM
Subject: whatcha want for x-mas???
> Okay fellow Commander junkies.... I've started up a new
> business path in your honor and am soliciting feedback.
> I've tasked several of my technical staff to become gurus on
> the topic of aircraft parts manufacturing and approvals. My
> immediate goal is to select a specific aircraft component to
> design and manufacture, then follow the entire process through
> acquiring a PMA (and STC if required). My question to you is:
> what should I make? In order to limit the responses somewhat,
> I'd like to stipulate the following:
>
> - a part/component which is "non-critical" so that we can focus
> on the proceedural aspects of obtaining our first PMA
>
> - something with a fairly attractive market (ie: maybe something
> that isn't currently available or is hard to find due to demand)
>
> - something not too insanely difficult to produce (for the 1st one)
>
> Any thoughts? Goodyear break pucks? :-)
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
> PS: sorry to anyone that got re-directed to the wrong web site
> today. We had a little goof up with our virtual hosts config and
> it sent viewers to the C2 homepage rather than the Commander site.
> I currently have one physical machine with 15 virtual network
> interfaces and during the swap to the new network, a few things
> didn't happen smoothly...
> If you happen to find anything else broken, please let me know!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Furlong5(at)aol.com <Furlong5(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/4/2001 5:15:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com writes:
> Nico is an old
> Commander pilot that is currently between airplanes. Welcome
>
NICO -- I WOULD OBJECT TO THE TERM "OLD"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
Just curious if anyone has ever seen a 680 series Commander
modified under STC SA 710 SW with a PT6A-20 engine?
Capt JB - how about updating your bird to kerosene? :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: whatcha want for x-mas??? |
I SECOND Randy's vote for a sun visor! Dang that glare!
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Dettmer" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
To: "Chris Schuermann" ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: whatcha want for x-mas???
> Hi Chris,
> How about a resonably priced sun visor..?? The only one I know that has
an
> STC for Commanders runs about $900.00 (Made by Rosen) I currently use
> green transparent plastic sheets (about 6"x8") which stick to the wind
> shield for about $3.50.
>
> Randy Dettmer
> 680F/N6253X
>
>
> From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:00 PM
> Subject: whatcha want for x-mas???
>
>
> > Okay fellow Commander junkies.... I've started up a new
> > business path in your honor and am soliciting feedback.
> > I've tasked several of my technical staff to become gurus on
> > the topic of aircraft parts manufacturing and approvals. My
> > immediate goal is to select a specific aircraft component to
> > design and manufacture, then follow the entire process through
> > acquiring a PMA (and STC if required). My question to you is:
> > what should I make? In order to limit the responses somewhat,
> > I'd like to stipulate the following:
> >
> > - a part/component which is "non-critical" so that we can focus
> > on the proceedural aspects of obtaining our first PMA
> >
> > - something with a fairly attractive market (ie: maybe something
> > that isn't currently available or is hard to find due to demand)
> >
> > - something not too insanely difficult to produce (for the 1st one)
> >
> > Any thoughts? Goodyear break pucks? :-)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > PS: sorry to anyone that got re-directed to the wrong web site
> > today. We had a little goof up with our virtual hosts config and
> > it sent viewers to the C2 homepage rather than the Commander site.
> > I currently have one physical machine with 15 virtual network
> > interfaces and during the swap to the new network, a few things
> > didn't happen smoothly...
> > If you happen to find anything else broken, please let me know!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: whatcha want for x-mas??? |
Randy Dettmer wrote:
> How about a resonably priced sun visor..??
There ya go! Good idea Randy. Does Rosen happen to have a
web site? $900 does seem a bit steep. Now, the interesting
part will be to see if, after paying multiple employees for the
engineering and paperwork time, if I can actually get something
completed, PMA'd, STC's, and to market for less than that...
Won't know till I try though...
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: whatcha want for x-mas??? |
Better sun shields are a good idea, I had Rosen sun shields but they needed
to be bigger but they break easily.
How about a fuel reserve system for those one feed systems i.e.500B.
After all Volkswagen has reserve levers, motorcycles has reserve levers.
Maybe a low fuel light.
I was always tired of cleaning the top of the wing south of the exhaust
stacks, I always thought that a laminate of some sort of material that
carbon wouldn't stick to could be attached to the wing.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 16:00
Subject: whatcha want for x-mas???
> Okay fellow Commander junkies.... I've started up a new
> business path in your honor and am soliciting feedback.
> I've tasked several of my technical staff to become gurus on
> the topic of aircraft parts manufacturing and approvals. My
> immediate goal is to select a specific aircraft component to
> design and manufacture, then follow the entire process through
> acquiring a PMA (and STC if required). My question to you is:
> what should I make? In order to limit the responses somewhat,
> I'd like to stipulate the following:
>
> - a part/component which is "non-critical" so that we can focus
> on the proceedural aspects of obtaining our first PMA
>
> - something with a fairly attractive market (ie: maybe something
> that isn't currently available or is hard to find due to demand)
>
> - something not too insanely difficult to produce (for the 1st one)
>
> Any thoughts? Goodyear break pucks? :-)
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
> PS: sorry to anyone that got re-directed to the wrong web site
> today. We had a little goof up with our virtual hosts config and
> it sent viewers to the C2 homepage rather than the Commander site.
> I currently have one physical machine with 15 virtual network
> interfaces and during the swap to the new network, a few things
> didn't happen smoothly...
> If you happen to find anything else broken, please let me know!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Maytag <dmaytag(at)commspeed.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
Yeah, I've always wondered about that too.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 6:13 PM
Subject: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680?
> Just curious if anyone has ever seen a 680 series Commander
> modified under STC SA 710 SW with a PT6A-20 engine?
> Capt JB - how about updating your bird to kerosene? :-)
>
> Chris
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/4/01 4:35:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com writes:
<< just using the memory aide CIGAR, >>
Cigar.............
Controls,
Intruments,
Gas,
Altimeter,
Run Up,
BUT DONT FORGET THE TIP!!!!!!!!!!
Trim,
Interior,
Pattern.
And just for the hell of it I quite using that check list when I last flew
the Aeronica Champ that was without a check list, and the intuctor who gave
me my tail wheel check out taught it to me.............
If you don't have a check list for a high performance twin, then don't fly
it. How else are you going to shut down an engine, feather the prop, turn
off the hydraulic pump, isolate the generator, and turn off the fuel pumps???
DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Memory items are for Cubs, and Champs. (and yes Cigar Tip works just fine in
them)
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: whatcha want for x-mas??? |
Hey Chris!!!! Why work that hard???? Start making dark plexiglass sun
visors, and FAA approved curtain rods for the back windows.
I have never seen a commander with ROSEN (trademark required) visors, or
Beach style curtain rods, and curtains???!!!
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/4/01 8:55:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, Furlong5(at)aol.com
writes:
<< NICO -- I WOULD OBJECT TO THE TERM "OLD" >>
No, No, NO!!!!!!!!!
Crunk Sr. is old!!!!!!!!! (Oil Slick Jr. is my age 34......)
But Jim can still play bass guitar in his rock band till the wee hours of the
morning!!
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: whatcha want for x-mas??? |
One Problem I just thought of for the curtain rods though, Beach had an A.D.
that required the removal of the curtain rods on the Bonanza, Travelaire, and
Baron series that used them on the rear emergancy exit windows.
Better be carefull of the commanders that have the egress of the starboard
side rear window.
I also should have known that about 3 people would beat me to the punch on
the visor idea. That's why I am not a millionaire already!!!!! Every Body
Always Beats Me To The Punch!!!
Did I tell you the one about the gutter cleaning attachment for your leaf
blower???? OH You Already Have One......See What I Mean????
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/4/01 7:43:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, JETPAUL(at)aol.com
writes:
> CIGAR, >>
CIGAR + TIP............T = trim, I = (interior, belts, windows , doors),
P = pattern (Paryer)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
I use a slightly different "CIGARS"...
Controls
Instruments
Gas
Attitude (trim, flaps)
Radios
Special (seat belts, heater off, etc.)
And, of course, there is "GUMPS" for landing...
Gas
Undercarraige (gear down)
Mixture
Props
Special (seat belts, landing lights, etc...)
I also typed up a checklist from the POH, had it laminated, and ALWAYS use
it...especially at start-up and before take-off.
Commander also produced a small (apprx 3" x 6") quick check-list booklet
with normal and emergency procedures, which I keep handy.
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Checklists
> In a message dated 12/4/01 4:35:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com writes:
>
> << just using the memory aide CIGAR, >>
>
> Cigar.............
> Controls,
> Intruments,
> Gas,
> Altimeter,
> Run Up,
>
>
> BUT DONT FORGET THE TIP!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Trim,
> Interior,
> Pattern.
>
> And just for the hell of it I quite using that check list when I last flew
> the Aeronica Champ that was without a check list, and the intuctor who
gave
> me my tail wheel check out taught it to me.............
>
> If you don't have a check list for a high performance twin, then don't fly
> it. How else are you going to shut down an engine, feather the prop, turn
> off the hydraulic pump, isolate the generator, and turn off the fuel
pumps???
>
> DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Memory items are for Cubs, and Champs. (and yes Cigar Tip works just fine
in
> them)
>
> JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
Larry,
You can purchase the original small handheld checklist binder from Twin
Commander if you need it.
(Red with highlighted EP checks etc) I bought one just to get the
necessary data from it to develop my own.
Enclosed is my personnel developed checklist taken from the original
which includes all
procedures from preflight to engine shut down. 4 pages worth saved as RTF
doc form.
They are page set for most color or B&W printers and you can print them
out on 5x7 stock cards, which will fit into the normal plastic checklist
sleeves.
When I was instructing in my 500B I gave these out to my students for
reference.
In addition I have also enclosed performance charts for 4,8,10K feet that
I made from
the IO-540 engine chart.
These charts give you fuel flow, RPM, TAS, power settings etc. for each
condition in tab form.
i.e. These have been great for verifying my engine health. I have checked
their accuracy and they appear to be very close. One of these days I will
add other altitudes but it's very time consuming because I need to
interpolate the numbers from other charts and hand feed the spreedsheet.
example:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
PA '
T f
%Hp
MP"
RPM
MPH
KTS
10K
0
45
14.9
2450
188
164
10K
0
55
17.1
2450
200
174
10K
0
65
19.3
2450
211
183
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
10K
0
55
18.3
2300
188
164
10K
0
65
20.7
2300
200
174
10K
20
55
18.6
2300
190
165
10K
20
65
21.1
2300
203
180
10K
40
55
19.0
2300
192
168
10K
40
65
21.6
2300
204
181
etc...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
% HP
BEST PWR LBS/HR
ECON PWR LBS/HR
BEST PWR GAL/HR
ECON PWR GAL/HR
45
70
55
11.7
9.2
55
80
65
13.5
10.3
65
90
75
15.0
12.5
75
105
85
17.5
14.2
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Also enclosed is my Tac/maintenance form which allows you to fill in
maintenance notes, Total time,
Tac time, oil burn, fuel flow, running totals etc.. I use these as
logbook entries for maintenance and my pilot currency at the end of each
month without having to fill out a logbook entries every flight.
Lastly enclosed is a placard I created in Black over white letters for
the required display of the placarded items: i.e. MASTER SWITCH MUST BE
ON TO OPERATE FUEL VALVES etc..
The USAF was big on checklists during my pilot training, so I have
carried over many items from their checklists, ie formation, crew,
passenger briefing cards etc.
Hope these help you get up to speed in the aircraft.
I do have other forms which I sell in my IFR student package and if your
interested let me know.
The usual DISCLAIMER; not responsible for the data or procedures listed
on these cards which may be inaccurate or lead to pilot error. The PIC
is responsible to utilize this information with good judgment.
Have fun.
Randy Sharp
L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com said:
>Hello all,
>
>I just purchased a 500B a month ago. It is presently undergoing post annual
>inspection maintenance, and I hope to be able to take delivery of it this
>weekend. Does anyone know of or use a commercially prepared operating
>checklist similar to the Checkmate checklist? I called the Checkmate folks,
>and they haven't developed one for the TC. Are you all using the checklists
>directly out of the POH, just using the memory aide CIGAR, or is something
>else available.
>Thanks,
>Larry Wokral
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk wrote:
> The only Commander I've traced which had the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-20
> engines was a 680T Turbo Commander, serial 1583-35, N6523V. This Commander
> was fitted with these engines in June 1966 and received an Experimental
> category CofA. In November that year it regained its Normal-Standard
> category CofA after just over 40 hours of test flying, and Swearingen
> appeared to be granted the STC SA710SW.
>
> This Commander was retained by Aero Commander until scrapped in 1970.
>
> Now, has anybody out there got some photographs of this installation?
>
> The STC does indeed quote "680 series" as being applicable.
>
> Come on Jimbob, try it out, ready for next year's Fly-In!!
It would be interesting to acquire that STC just for the historical
factor... Anyone have any contacts at Swearingen?
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)gte.net> |
Thanks a lot Randy. These are great!! Jim Jorgensen (Seattle)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
Just to confuse everybody some more...there are TWO Randy's providing
discussion regarding check lists. I'm the Randy with the personal checklist
that works well for me, plus a nifty little booklet published by AC with
normal and emergency procedures. I'll try to track down a copy of the
booklet if anybody is interested.
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
----- Original Message -----
From: res00rbl <res00rbl(at)gte.net>
To: 'Randy Sharp' ; 'Larry S. Wokral'
; 'E-Mail List'
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: Checklists
> Thanks a lot Randy. These are great!! Jim Jorgensen (Seattle)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
In a message dated 12/4/01 6:15:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
<< Just curious if anyone has ever seen a 680 series Commander
modified under STC SA 710 SW with a PT6A-20 engine?
Capt JB - how about updating your bird to kerosene? :-) >>
Chris,
When I was in Pago Pago we looked at that STC for the 680FL. My D.o.M. was
hot to trot on that one ... but the cost would have been too absurd, to put
it mildly.
Rockwell determined that the fuel specifics on the P&W of that era was not
fuel efficient enough to work. I.E. no range.
There is this guy (Drexel Hanson, I think) in Las Vegas who claims to be
putting the Polish built replica of the P&W on Turbo Commanders but beyond a
conversation with him a few months ago -- nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch.
Besides, why would you want to put a motor designed for driving electric
generators and pumps on an airplane instead of an engine designed to be an
aircraft engine?
I can't wait for the indignant responses on THAT comment!! ;-)
OK, all you PT-6 Red Necks, I've got my ballistic underwear on ... Go ahead.
Make my day.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
You must be speaking of the Walter 601, Wing Commander. I chatted with some
guys (well, Dave Fenner & crew of Sunwest Aviation in Tucson) who were
thinking of putting them on a 680FLP. Here's what came of it:
1) The engines are like 30" longer and 110 lbs. lighter than the piston
engine it replaces. Just the changes to the nacelle make it prohibitive, if
you want the airplane to balance, and don't want to have a prop in your ear.
2) The fuel consumption isn't as good as the PT-6 it copies.
3) Low TBO, if I remember, and there's only one place, in FL, that
specializes in the Walter.
4) Walter advertises that P&W parts are interchangeable. Ain't so, from what
I've heard from A&P's who've laid hands on the Walter.
5) The direct operating costs are significantly higher.
6) The Walters (again, 2nd-hand info) evidently are quite anemic at
altitude.
All in all, it came out a better deal to keep the IGSO-540's on the
airframe. Ol' Ted knew what he was doing, I guess. If you want a turbine,
buy a 690.
Dave couldn't even justify using them to replace the engines on his 680V...
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680?
> In a message dated 12/4/01 6:15:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
>
> << Just curious if anyone has ever seen a 680 series Commander
> modified under STC SA 710 SW with a PT6A-20 engine?
> Capt JB - how about updating your bird to kerosene? :-) >>
>
>
> Chris,
>
> When I was in Pago Pago we looked at that STC for the 680FL. My D.o.M.
was
> hot to trot on that one ... but the cost would have been too absurd, to
put
> it mildly.
>
> Rockwell determined that the fuel specifics on the P&W of that era was not
> fuel efficient enough to work. I.E. no range.
>
> There is this guy (Drexel Hanson, I think) in Las Vegas who claims to be
> putting the Polish built replica of the P&W on Turbo Commanders but beyond
a
> conversation with him a few months ago -- nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch.
>
> Besides, why would you want to put a motor designed for driving electric
> generators and pumps on an airplane instead of an engine designed to be an
> aircraft engine?
>
> I can't wait for the indignant responses on THAT comment!! ;-)
>
> OK, all you PT-6 Red Necks, I've got my ballistic underwear on ... Go
ahead.
> Make my day.
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
In a message dated 12/5/01 12:49:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
john(at)vormbaum.com writes:
<< You must be speaking of the Walter 601, >>
Those are the ones. I forgot the name. Thanks.
Interesting stats. I always wondered why the "wonder motors" never appeared
on an airframe.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Randy Sharp wrote:
> Enclosed is my personnel developed checklist
> In addition I have also enclosed performance
> 10K 0 65 19.3 2450 211 183
> 10K 0 65 20.7 2300 200 174
Randy,
Thanks mucho for all the great documentation!!!
BTW, your performance charts are very interesting. In my
Viking, I saw virtually no change in speed at the same power
setting using a lower RPM. You show a substantial decrease...
Obviously an oddity of the airframe/prop match on a 500B...
When I get 89PK up and running, I'll have to go out and create
a table of actual performance for it. With the IO540 on the
Viking, I found that my fuel flow was also slightly lower at
a given power setting at lower RPM.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
I am getting conflicting information about if the
"nasty" prop AD applies to the 680FP props or not. One
source I have spoken to says it applies and I might as
well figure on buying new props, the others says the
first it fibbin and there are no Ad's on the 680FP
props.
I'm planning to bid on this plane tomorrow, so any
information will sure help.
Thanks,
Kerry
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
No offence meant, but you did say it was a POLISH replica. Questio
nanswered.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
To: ;
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680?
> In a message dated 12/4/01 6:15:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
>
> << Just curious if anyone has ever seen a 680 series Commander
> modified under STC SA 710 SW with a PT6A-20 engine?
> Capt JB - how about updating your bird to kerosene? :-) >>
>
>
> Chris,
>
> When I was in Pago Pago we looked at that STC for the 680FL. My D.o.M.
was
> hot to trot on that one ... but the cost would have been too absurd, to
put
> it mildly.
>
> Rockwell determined that the fuel specifics on the P&W of that era was not
> fuel efficient enough to work. I.E. no range.
>
> There is this guy (Drexel Hanson, I think) in Las Vegas who claims to be
> putting the Polish built replica of the P&W on Turbo Commanders but beyond
a
> conversation with him a few months ago -- nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch.
>
> Besides, why would you want to put a motor designed for driving electric
> generators and pumps on an airplane instead of an engine designed to be an
> aircraft engine?
>
> I can't wait for the indignant responses on THAT comment!! ;-)
>
> OK, all you PT-6 Red Necks, I've got my ballistic underwear on ... Go
ahead.
> Make my day.
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
Thank you thank you Jim,
I suspected as such, since the source who agreed with
you seemed much more knowledgeable. Sadly the other
was a prop overhaul shop. Now I don't know if they
were trying to screw me, or if they were just
mistaken.
Regards,
Kerry
--- YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
> From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:01:16 EST
> Subject: Re: Prop AD
> To: kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com
>
> HI KERRY.........
>
> NO, the AD doesn't apply. You airplane
> will have HCB3Z-30
> propellers with no AD. The STC i offer for the 680E
> etc, airplanes basically
> allows for your those props (with a 20 spline hub)
> to be used on those
> airplanes. You are good to go...........jb
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
Does this mean the 680FL is not affected as well?
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 17:03
Subject: Fwd: Prop AD
>HI KERRY.........
>
> NO, the AD doesn't apply. You airplane will have HCB3Z-30
>propellers with no AD. The STC i offer for the 680E etc, airplanes
basically
>allows for your those props (with a 20 spline hub) to be used on those
>airplanes. You are good to go...........jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Sharp <sharp.r(at)apple.com> |
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com said:
>Randy Sharp wrote:
>> Enclosed is my personnel developed checklist
>> In addition I have also enclosed performance
>> 10K 0 65 19.3 2450 211 183
>> 10K 0 65 20.7 2300 200 174
>Randy,
>Thanks mucho for all the great documentation!!!
>BTW, your performance charts are very interesting. In my
>Viking, I saw virtually no change in speed at the same power
>setting using a lower RPM.
Did you increase MP or maintain it while lowering the RPM?
As I decrease RPM I can't increase MP at higher altitudes so my effective
BHP also decreases.
i.e. 2450 RPM at 12K is 19" or 65%, 2000 RPM at 12K is 17" or 45%.
If I could increase MP to maintain 19" or higher while I decrease MP
I would probably be close to the same speed.
I wonder what John V does in his Turbo 500B?
>You show a substantial decrease...
>Obviously an oddity of the airframe/prop match on a 500B...
>When I get 89PK up and running, I'll have to go out and create
>a table of actual performance for it. With the IO540 on the
>Viking, I found that my fuel flow was also slightly lower at
>a given power setting at lower RPM.
>Chris
There are a few anomalies with some of these table values due to the data
that overlaps OATs-PAs ie DAs, GW and Power Line curves. (NRP) (about 4
charts in all)
But in general the data extracted from the 500B power chart
definitely shows that as RPM is decreased TAS also decreases.
It is more dramatic at higher altitudes. (Power Available is less)
At the lower altitudes the NRP lines are almost vertical
(i.e. very little change in speed with a large drop in RPM)
I can maintain the same power setting (MP vs RPM) at the lower altitudes.
One extraction below is directly taken from the book:
DA of 10K 2400 RPM gives 210 MPH TAS at 65%.
DA of 10K 2000 RPM gives 190 MPH TAS at 45%
If you look at the 4K chart:
4000PA 40F 65% 2450RPM 174KTS
4000PA 40F 65% 2100RPM 173KTS
The speeds are almost identical and so is the power.
(Probably an interpolation error from me regarding the speed difference)
I also combined these figures with the engine Mfgr data and in general
they have been fairly consistent for my normally aspirated engine.
I validated most of the figures for my aircraft at the 8K and 10K
altitudes
which is where I fly most often. (RHV-Tahoe)
I definitely see a drop in TAS if I go to the lower RPM settings at
altitude.
But the benefit is a lower cabin noise and if the chart overlaps
a specific power range the fuel flow also drops as well.
I do not have Turbos so I can't increase MP above a certain Altitude ie
around 8K)
Hope this clarifies my charts a little.
For the first 500 hours of use I have been running at 2350 to 2400 RPM.
Now I have decided to lower my RPM to 2200 RPM in the last 400 hours.
Now I have lower cabin noise and I get to fly in this beautiful aircraft
10 more minutes up to Tahoe.
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
> Did you increase MP or maintain it while lowering the RPM?
Oh, definitly increased. I was looking at your "percent power"
numbers. By the time I hit 24,000 ft, I was up to 27"MAP at
2200 RPM to get 75% power. (did I mention that I LOVE my turbos?)
I completely agree that the lower RPM settings make for a MUCH
more enjoyable cabin. I'm anxious to see how the "Q-tips" on
89PK sound at altitude and low RPM. If I ever get the poor gal
back in the air I'll write up a lengthy report...
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
OK,
I'm busted. You caught me. I haven't ever bothered to make a power chart for
the turbos, nor have I tracked TAS with the turbos at various
altitudes....yet. Of course, the turbos have only been working perfectly for
about the last 3 months and I haven't done much flying. I will get to it.
As far as MP/RPM combinations, I too notice a big dropoff in speed when I
pull back the props, although I get a much better fuel flow. When I'm flying
low (<6000) I usually run 24in/2100rpm. Quieter and burns less fuel. Higher
than that and I tend to be in a hurry, I like to see >190ktas and I don't
care about the fuel or the noise. 25in/2400rpm seems to be the way to get
there. Yeehah!
Must be the big flat plate area of the commander compared to the vike that's
responsible for the loss of speed.....
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Sharp" <sharp.r(at)apple.com>
To: "E-Mail List"
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Checklists
> chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com said:
> >Randy Sharp wrote:
> >> Enclosed is my personnel developed checklist
> >> In addition I have also enclosed performance
> >> 10K 0 65 19.3 2450 211 183
> >> 10K 0 65 20.7 2300 200 174
> >Randy,
> >Thanks mucho for all the great documentation!!!
> >BTW, your performance charts are very interesting. In my
> >Viking, I saw virtually no change in speed at the same power
> >setting using a lower RPM.
> Did you increase MP or maintain it while lowering the RPM?
> As I decrease RPM I can't increase MP at higher altitudes so my effective
> BHP also decreases.
> i.e. 2450 RPM at 12K is 19" or 65%, 2000 RPM at 12K is 17" or 45%.
> If I could increase MP to maintain 19" or higher while I decrease MP
> I would probably be close to the same speed.
>
> I wonder what John V does in his Turbo 500B?
>
> >You show a substantial decrease...
> >Obviously an oddity of the airframe/prop match on a 500B...
> >When I get 89PK up and running, I'll have to go out and create
> >a table of actual performance for it. With the IO540 on the
> >Viking, I found that my fuel flow was also slightly lower at
> >a given power setting at lower RPM.
> >Chris
>
> There are a few anomalies with some of these table values due to the data
> that overlaps OATs-PAs ie DAs, GW and Power Line curves. (NRP) (about 4
> charts in all)
> But in general the data extracted from the 500B power chart
> definitely shows that as RPM is decreased TAS also decreases.
> It is more dramatic at higher altitudes. (Power Available is less)
> At the lower altitudes the NRP lines are almost vertical
> (i.e. very little change in speed with a large drop in RPM)
> I can maintain the same power setting (MP vs RPM) at the lower altitudes.
>
> One extraction below is directly taken from the book:
> DA of 10K 2400 RPM gives 210 MPH TAS at 65%.
> DA of 10K 2000 RPM gives 190 MPH TAS at 45%
>
> If you look at the 4K chart:
> 4000PA 40F 65% 2450RPM 174KTS
> 4000PA 40F 65% 2100RPM 173KTS
> The speeds are almost identical and so is the power.
> (Probably an interpolation error from me regarding the speed difference)
>
> I also combined these figures with the engine Mfgr data and in general
> they have been fairly consistent for my normally aspirated engine.
> I validated most of the figures for my aircraft at the 8K and 10K
> altitudes
> which is where I fly most often. (RHV-Tahoe)
>
> I definitely see a drop in TAS if I go to the lower RPM settings at
> altitude.
> But the benefit is a lower cabin noise and if the chart overlaps
> a specific power range the fuel flow also drops as well.
> I do not have Turbos so I can't increase MP above a certain Altitude ie
> around 8K)
>
> Hope this clarifies my charts a little.
> For the first 500 hours of use I have been running at 2350 to 2400 RPM.
> Now I have decided to lower my RPM to 2200 RPM in the last 400 hours.
> Now I have lower cabin noise and I get to fly in this beautiful aircraft
> 10 more minutes up to Tahoe.
> Randy
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/5/01 5:41:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
> Does this mean the 680FL is not affected as well?
> Tom...
YEP, It too dodged the bullet. All of the IGO & IGSO-540 engines have 30
spline output shafts and have no AD....... ................jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/05/01 17:41:32 Pacific Standard Time,
tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
> Does this mean the 680FL is not affected as well?
>
Correct. The props on the IGSO-540 powered Commanders are not subject to the
AD. That means the 680-F series aircraft: -F, -FL, -FP, -FLP.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
Depends on the model of the prop. If your prop is an H?-AC ( I think), the
props must be inspected for deviations and cracks to avoid blade separation.
Then if ovehauled and the hubs are not changed to the HV-AC then the props
need inspected every 300 hours.
I personally purchased new props from Hartzel at the cost of $20,000.00 for
the set. The cost now is $20,000.00 pet prop.
I found with my Props that the rebuild was going to cost me close to 20k, so
I figured buy new. and eliminate the AD all together.
The best thing to do is Get the model and serial number of the porps and
call the Hartzell service center. they can tell you what the status is on
the props is. This AD applied to ANY aircraft that used the H?-AC props.
This is from memory mind you.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com>
To: "Commander Chat"
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 7:12 PM
Subject: Prop AD
> I am getting conflicting information about if the
> "nasty" prop AD applies to the 680FP props or not. One
> source I have spoken to says it applies and I might as
> well figure on buying new props, the others says the
> first it fibbin and there are no Ad's on the 680FP
> props.
>
> I'm planning to bid on this plane tomorrow, so any
> information will sure help.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kerry
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
In a message dated 12/5/01 3:29:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
<< OK, all you PT-6 Red Necks, I've got my ballistic underwear on ... Go
ahead.
Make my day. >>
Well, you know what?? I am not in the mood to argue with the
Commander...BUT!!
There are turbines, and then there are turbines. The - 20- was not much to
speak of, and I don't know if I want to put anything from Poland on my
airplane......But any time you stop the 3,600 R. P. M. piston from hitting
top dead center, then jerking back the other way, and you make it turn roundy
round with no sudden stop.............
Well, I think you see where this is going....Of course I am a little biased,
I'm only 34 years old with 12,000 hours; and almost 10,000 hours of that is
turbine.
In 10,000 hours of turbine time I have only shut down 1 engine, and it was a
run away prop that we could not control. In the 2,000 hours of piston time I
have (to include several hundred hours of 7, 9, and 18 cylinder radial
engines-------Stearmans, twin Beech's, T-28's, Convair 440's, And DC-6's I
think that I shut down about 6 engines. That spanned about 18 months before
I decided to stop flying freight to Mexico and the Caribbean.
YES THEY ARE EXPENSIVE, AND YES THEY USE A LOT OF FUEL, BUT IF THEY WILL
START AT ALL THEY WILL RUN TILL YOU SHUT THEM DOWN. (Period.)
Sorry Keith, I am not trying to make you mad or cross swords here....Just my
7 engine shut downs worth......And besides you are the only person I know
still wearing asbestos underwear.........Everybody has switched to
Kevlar!!!!!! GET WITH THE PROGRAM!!!!!!!!
Of course I am a big fan of the Wankel Rotary also......Cause it also goes
ROUND and ROUND with no sudden stops or jerks in the other direction.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
In a message dated 12/05/01 21:38:26 Pacific Standard Time, JET PAUL writes:
> Sorry Keith, I am not trying to make you mad or cross swords here....Just my
> 7 engine shut downs worth......And besides you are the only person I know
> still wearing asbestos underwear.........Everybody has switched to
> Kevlar!!!!!! GET WITH THE PROGRAM!!!!!!!!
Yo! I said Ballistics underwear, not fire proof! I'm with the program. ;-)
Besides, you thought I was advocating piston vs. PT-6. Nope. Garret
TPE-331 vs. PT-6.
I know: It's as tired as the Ford vs. Chevy debate and just as useless --
but I was bored while on stand-by today. I admit it.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
In a message dated 12/6/01 12:52:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
<< Besides, you thought I was advocating piston vs. PT-6. Nope. Garret
TPE-331 vs. PT-6. >>
Well, I cant argue there!!! I have about 3,000 hours behind me with the
TPE-331-10-UR pulling me along. It never once failed to start, or quit, but
it was the run away prop that I spoke of.
Leaving Asheville, NC and Indy Center said "Roger your emergency [call sign
yada, yada, yada), if you don't have the TV station antennas in sight at your
12 o'clock turn right like your life depends on it....because I am pretty
sure it does....OVER!!!"
HARD RIGHT TURN (into the dead motor) and then let back down into Asheville.
That was 13 years ago, "and that's all I have to say about that!!"
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
I think I'll Puke.
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
To: ; ;
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Checklists
> In a message dated 12/5/01 12:43:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sharp.r(at)apple.com writes:
>
> << The usual DISCLAIMER; not responsible for the data or procedures listed
> on these cards which may be inaccurate or lead to pilot error. The PIC
> is responsible to utilize this information with good judgment. >>
>
>
> You know what Randy??? Mr. Gordon once accused us (specifically) of being
> worthy of our name sakes. And that little disclaimer, above, in today's
> world proved you are indeed worthy
>
> I think it went something like.........Mr...... Reason, and Mr.
> Sharp.....They deserve their last names.
>
>
> Oh well......what do you expect from such named folk?
>
>
> And I'm not saying I learned a lot in college, but my training did include
a
> building a STILL that could put out almost 8 to 10 ounces of "NO NAME" a
day
> running on an electric hot plate in a college dorm room!!!
>
> AND THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT!!!!!
>
> JetPaul
>
> PS Just keep telling the hall monitor that the funny smell from your room
> that smells like fermenting corn is really old socks that need to get
> washed!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
I ran into this ancient decrepit old guy at the airport the other day. He tells
me that th prototype (blue goose) commander had an old Studebaker Commander nameplate
glued to it at the last minute as opposed to a manufactured nameplate.
Any truth to this?
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
Hi Commanderland,
You see, these ancient decrepit old guys at airports have extremely wise
heads on them. Like Wing Commanders.
The story he told you is true, or at least part of it is.
Ted Smith went to a local scrapyard, bought the "Commander" nameplate off
an old Studebaker, and used it for the Commander. Story confirmed by Ron
Smith, Ted's son.
Now, I cannot say they glued it on to the Commander. More likely they used
its style as a template to paint it on.
Now, has anyone got some photographs of old Studebakers? Seriously, if
anyone can lay their hands on an example, it'll be useful for the book. Go
on, raid the family scrapbook chaps!
Meanwhile I'll do some fishing around and trawl the net.
Perhaps the Wing Commander had an old Studebaker in his younger days?
Very Best Regards to All,
Barry C.
N414C
cc:
06/12/2001 Subject: Commander
13:03
I ran into this ancient decrepit old guy at the airport the other day. He
tells me that the prototype (blue goose) commander had an old Studebaker
Commander nameplate glued to it at the last minute as opposed to a
manufactured nameplate.
Any truth to this?
Mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
In a message dated 12/05/01 23:56:58 Pacific Standard Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> Its name was (is) a Primus stove. So,
> we kindly referred to turbines as primusses. Piece of useless info.
>
Nico,
Back in my mountaineering days, I prepared many a meal on a Primus. Mabye
that's what led me to aviation!
Now that I fly jets, I've been called a primadonna, but not a pimus. Hmmmm...
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/06/01 06:28:44 Pacific Standard Time,
Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk writes:
> Perhaps the Wing Commander had an old Studebaker in his younger days?
As much as I'd like to be really really old in your eyes, I'm not. Alas, the
car of my youth was a V.W. bus. It had an 8 track tape player, naturally.
I have heard of guys who had Studebakers ...
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
Try these sites,
There are more if you search on DOGPILE.COM for (commander,Studebaker).
Dogpile.com is a multiple search engine site.
http://www.studebaker.0catch.com/
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/cshelton/studebaker.html
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk>
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 06:19
Subject: Re: Commander
>
> Hi Commanderland,
>
> You see, these ancient decrepit old guys at airports have extremely wise
> heads on them. Like Wing Commanders.
>
> The story he told you is true, or at least part of it is.
>
> Ted Smith went to a local scrapyard, bought the "Commander" nameplate off
> an old Studebaker, and used it for the Commander. Story confirmed by Ron
> Smith, Ted's son.
>
> Now, I cannot say they glued it on to the Commander. More likely they used
> its style as a template to paint it on.
>
> Now, has anyone got some photographs of old Studebakers? Seriously, if
> anyone can lay their hands on an example, it'll be useful for the book. Go
> on, raid the family scrapbook chaps!
>
> Meanwhile I'll do some fishing around and trawl the net.
>
> Perhaps the Wing Commander had an old Studebaker in his younger days?
>
> Very Best Regards to All,
>
> Barry C.
>
>
> N414C
> e.net>
> cc:
> 06/12/2001 Subject: Commander
> 13:03
>
>
> I ran into this ancient decrepit old guy at the airport the other day. He
> tells me that the prototype (blue goose) commander had an old Studebaker
> Commander nameplate glued to it at the last minute as opposed to a
> manufactured nameplate.
> Any truth to this?
> Mil
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
> N414C wrote:
>
> I have a Wilcox transponder in my plane and understand parts are hard
> to find. I can get a serviceable unit for $900 as a spare. Is this a
> good price?
Milt,
I'd strongly recomend just upgrading when your Wilcox finally croaks.
Nobody works on 'em any longer - even getting a transponder check at
an avionics shop can be a problem. For less than $900 you can get a
factory OH King KT76A and for $200 more you can get a new Garmin GTX320
or a new KT76A.
Various options at: http://www.seaerospace.com for your consideration.
(I've purchased from these folks before and have been very happy)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Unlike the youthful wing commander I am old enough to have driven a Commander.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/06/01 08:55:38 Pacific Standard Time,
chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes:
> I'd strongly recomend just upgrading when your Wilcox finally croaks.
> Nobody works on 'em any longer - even getting a transponder check at
> an avionics shop can be a problem.
Roger that.
Milt, when the Wilcox xpnder in N414C was last worked on by King's Avionics
at New Century Airport, Kansas City, in about 1997, they told me that was
"the last time you'll get this fixed -- then you'll have to replace it."
I brought it in because it would not stay on a selected code. It would drift
and spray out various codes which I told the Kansas City Center controllers
was a form of ATC Lottery: If I squawked my assigned code while I was in
their sector, they'd win $38 million.
The sporting controllers let me fly on. The conservative ones made me squawk
standby or in once case, cancel IFR.
The problem was the power supply. It uses some kind of vacuum tube and there
are no more.
Time to get solid state.
Wind Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/06/01 09:02:36 Pacific Standard Time,
N414C(at)cableone.net writes:
> Unlike the youthful wing commander I am old enough to have driven a
>
You are such a Stud(ebaker)! I want one!
You really do have style, Dr. Milt.
Sir Barry, what year Studebaker logo do you think would have gone on the
Spruce Goose? One from the year it flew, or, earlier in its design phase?
Should we be looking for 1950 to 1952 logos?
I'll contact the Studebaker websites and find out what year they first made
the Commander model.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Folks,
In case anyone is interested, 94WT went for
$41,000.00. My bid was third, @$31,500.00(#@%!$@# ) so
I guess I won't be flying this bird.
My next options are:
1. Harry Merritt's 1963 680FP.
2. N400CH a 1965 680FLP with MR.RPM conversion.
http://www.downtownairpark.com/okc/headfs.htm
Any suggestions?
What does the Mr. RPM conversion do as far as climb &
cruise performance? Useful load? Weight & Balance?
Fuel Burn? Misc.?
Regards,
Kerry
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
Hmm, I would have thought the useful load would
increase due to losing the air cycle machine &
associated cabin superchager etc.
Are the Mr RPM Props clear on the AD front?
Regards,
Kerry
--- CloudCraft(at)aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 12/06/01 09:55:10 Pacific
> Standard Time,
> kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > What does the Mr. RPM conversion do as far as
> climb &
> > cruise performance? Useful load? Weight & Balance?
> > Fuel Burn? Misc.?
> >
>
> Climb will not be as good due to the smaller
> diameter props, as you learned
> from following the threads on this topic.
>
> Cruise will be about the same, with lower fuel burn.
>
> Useful load is about the same; most RMP conversions
> got plush interiors so
> useful load went down a bit -- but that's the
> completion, not the airplane's
> fault!
>
> Weight & Balance the same; note my warnings about
> panel mount avionics,
> Shirke noses, etc. changing the original balance of
> the tube-fired avionics
> installation.
>
> Fuel burn should be less than the IGSO-540s by about
> 10 gph, but I'll let the
> current RPM operators post their fuel burns.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry S. Wokral <L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Performance Figures |
Randy Sharp said:
>As I decrease RPM I can't increase MP at higher altitudes so my effective
BHP also decreases.
i.e. 2450 RPM at 12K is 19" or 65%, 2000 RPM at 12K is 17" or 45%. If I
could increase MP to maintain 19" or higher while I decrease MP I would
probably be close to the same speed.
I wonder what John V does in his Turbo 500B?>
In my turbonormalized Cardinal RG, I just used the sea level performance
chart as a guide for figuring MP/RPM/%BHP initially. I realize that, even
though the turbonormalized engine still has all of its available HP up high,
that the prop and airframe lift components are less efficient. If the
factory charts engineers were astute enough to consider that in their
performance charts, then using the sea level numbers would discount those
effects.
As I attained more experience flying the turbonormalized plane, I ended up
coming up with a 26"/2400 RPM setting that seemed to be a "sweet spot" for
the plane at all cruise altitudes below about FL21 (between FL21 & FL25,
which I rarely fly, increasing to 26"/2500 RPM got more performance from the
turbo). I then simply adjust %HP solely by adjusting fuel flow. Of course,
this requires that you have adequate fuel flow and EGT/CHT/TIT
instrumentation so as not to exceed limitations.
I'm gonna miss that turbo on my, new to me, normally aspirated 500B.
Larry Wokral
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ricardo A. Otaola <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve> |
| Subject: | Re: Performance Figures |
Lets not all fly 6th gear onto a hill. Sometime you will have to increase
rpm and MP.
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry S. Wokral <L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com>
To: E-Mail List
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:21 PM
Subject: Performance Figures
> Randy Sharp said:
>
> >As I decrease RPM I can't increase MP at higher altitudes so my effective
> BHP also decreases.
> i.e. 2450 RPM at 12K is 19" or 65%, 2000 RPM at 12K is 17" or 45%. If I
> could increase MP to maintain 19" or higher while I decrease MP I would
> probably be close to the same speed.
>
> I wonder what John V does in his Turbo 500B?>
>
> In my turbonormalized Cardinal RG, I just used the sea level performance
> chart as a guide for figuring MP/RPM/%BHP initially. I realize that, even
> though the turbonormalized engine still has all of its available HP up
high,
> that the prop and airframe lift components are less efficient. If the
> factory charts engineers were astute enough to consider that in their
> performance charts, then using the sea level numbers would discount those
> effects.
>
> As I attained more experience flying the turbonormalized plane, I ended up
> coming up with a 26"/2400 RPM setting that seemed to be a "sweet spot" for
> the plane at all cruise altitudes below about FL21 (between FL21 & FL25,
> which I rarely fly, increasing to 26"/2500 RPM got more performance from
the
> turbo). I then simply adjust %HP solely by adjusting fuel flow. Of course,
> this requires that you have adequate fuel flow and EGT/CHT/TIT
> instrumentation so as not to exceed limitations.
>
> I'm gonna miss that turbo on my, new to me, normally aspirated 500B.
>
> Larry Wokral
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Wing Commander? Studebaker? Sheesh, I didn't know he was THAT old!
----- Original Message -----
From: <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk>
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Commander
>
> Hi Commanderland,
>
> You see, these ancient decrepit old guys at airports have extremely wise
> heads on them. Like Wing Commanders.
>
> The story he told you is true, or at least part of it is.
>
> Ted Smith went to a local scrapyard, bought the "Commander" nameplate off
> an old Studebaker, and used it for the Commander. Story confirmed by Ron
> Smith, Ted's son.
>
> Now, I cannot say they glued it on to the Commander. More likely they used
> its style as a template to paint it on.
>
> Now, has anyone got some photographs of old Studebakers? Seriously, if
> anyone can lay their hands on an example, it'll be useful for the book. Go
> on, raid the family scrapbook chaps!
>
> Meanwhile I'll do some fishing around and trawl the net.
>
> Perhaps the Wing Commander had an old Studebaker in his younger days?
>
> Very Best Regards to All,
>
> Barry C.
>
>
> N414C
> e.net>
> cc:
> 06/12/2001 Subject: Commander
> 13:03
>
>
> I ran into this ancient decrepit old guy at the airport the other day. He
> tells me that the prototype (blue goose) commander had an old Studebaker
> Commander nameplate glued to it at the last minute as opposed to a
> manufactured nameplate.
> Any truth to this?
> Mil
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/6/01 10:24:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com writes:
> Are the Mr RPM Props clear on the AD front?
NOPE, That propeller will probably be in the net. I don't have the exact
model number, but I am almost certain it is affected. :-(............jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS.......
Let me introduce Larry Wokral as our newest TCFG member! Larry
has just purchased a 500B with ALL the toys. Long nose, Frameless vent
windows, eyebrow windows, stinger tail, flap gap seals, the works. He has
not taken delivery yet but should have it in his hangar in CA within a couple
of weeks. Welcome Larry (need a ferry pilot??) :-)...................capt
jimbob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
>Are the Mr RPM Props clear on the AD front?
>NOPE, That propeller will probably be in the net. I don't have the exact model
number, but I
>am almost certain it is affected. :-(............jb
Correct. The orig. RPM conversions used a flange-mount steel hub
Hartzel which is indeed affected by the AD. Obviously, if you did
the RPM mod today, the new props are a later style and don't have
the AD. There may be a new option before too long. Dick is looking
into a Compact hub replacement.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Larry, where in CA are you?
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:43 AM
Subject: NEW MEMBER!
> HI KIDS.......
>
> Let me introduce Larry Wokral as our newest TCFG member!
Larry
> has just purchased a 500B with ALL the toys. Long nose, Frameless vent
> windows, eyebrow windows, stinger tail, flap gap seals, the works. He has
> not taken delivery yet but should have it in his hangar in CA within a
couple
> of weeks. Welcome Larry (need a ferry pilot??) :-)...................capt
> jimbob
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Lundborg <dltafolk(at)inreach.com> |
Can anyone tell me what AD's apply to the props and the spar on this
model?
Thanks,
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
Hi again!
Just a quick line to say that my UK Commander guru tells me that Rockwell found
that the heat from the exhaust of a PT6A-20 engine softened the main spar, so
dropped the idea of further development.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680?
| Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk wrote:
| > The only Commander I've traced which had the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-20
| > engines was a 680T Turbo Commander, serial 1583-35, N6523V. This Commander
| > was fitted with these engines in June 1966 and received an Experimental
| > category CofA. In November that year it regained its Normal-Standard
| > category CofA after just over 40 hours of test flying, and Swearingen
| > appeared to be granted the STC SA710SW.
| >
| > This Commander was retained by Aero Commander until scrapped in 1970.
| >
| > Now, has anybody out there got some photographs of this installation?
| >
| > The STC does indeed quote "680 series" as being applicable.
| >
| > Come on Jimbob, try it out, ready for next year's Fly-In!!
|
|
| It would be interesting to acquire that STC just for the historical
| factor... Anyone have any contacts at Swearingen?
|
| chris
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi!
Agreed. Excellent looking motors Milt. Are/were any of them actually yours?
With regard to the logo, it would, I reckon, have to be pre 1948, so for it to
be in a scrap dealer's yard, it could be any year before that. (English logic
- a wonderful thing eh!).
I've found various websites on the Studebaker Commander, but the photos are too
small to pick out detail.
I suppose it will depend on the year built, but does anybody know where the "Commander"
name was placed on the car?
Now if Ted had picked the logo from a V.W. bus, maybe we would stand a better chance!
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Commander
In a message dated 12/06/01 09:02:36 Pacific Standard Time, N414C(at)cableone.net
writes:
Unlike the youthful wing commander I am old enough to have driven a Commander.
You are such a Stud(ebaker)! I want one!
You really do have style, Dr. Milt.
Sir Barry, what year Studebaker logo do you think would have gone on the Spruce
Goose? One from the year it flew, or, earlier in its design phase?
Should we be looking for 1950 to 1952 logos?
I'll contact the Studebaker websites and find out what year they first made the
Commander model.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander logo |
In a message dated 12/06/01 13:25:59 Pacific Standard Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
> I've found various websites on the Studebaker Commander, but the photos are
>
I emailed the curator of the Studebaker museum in Southbend, Indiana today
and explained our interest in the logos.
Hope he responds.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks Max!
Ah! This raises another question, but of course, I was expecting that!!
I was anticipating the logo to look like the "Commander" as per the "Aero Design
Commander", as per the heading of 'our' website. I'll have to scrutinise some
early photos, but this looks as though it could develop into a bit of a challenge.
Perhaps 1952 is too late for the logo in question, and earlier ones were
different?
By hood, I know you really mean bonnet. If it were on the trunk, you'd really mean
boot, wouldn't you? Now, let me tell you where the steering wheel should be...................
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Max Schuermann
To: Barry Collman
Cc: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commander
Barry Collman wrote:
With regard to the logo, it would, I reckon, have to be pre 1948, so for it
to be in a scrap dealer's yard, it could be any year before that. (English logic
- a wonderful thing eh!).Not a very good picture but this emblem was on the
left front lower area of the hood. It's a 1952 model.
Max
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Commander logo |
Well done Keith, what a truly resourceful fellow you are......but I already knew
that of course.
Respond? Of course they will. They'll be thrilled to learn of the connection.
Thanks!!!
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk
Cc: commanderchat@c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Commander logo
In a message dated 12/06/01 13:25:59 Pacific Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk
writes:
I've found various websites on the Studebaker Commander, but the photos are
too small to pick out detail.
I emailed the curator of the Studebaker museum in Southbend, Indiana today and
explained our interest in the logos.
Hope he responds.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
No none of the photos were mine, got them off the web. I believe the 50s models
the logo was on the trunk.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Commander
Hi!
Agreed. Excellent looking motors Milt. Are/were any of them actually yours?
With regard to the logo, it would, I reckon, have to be pre 1948, so for it to
be in a scrap dealer's yard, it could be any year before that. (English logic
- a wonderful thing eh!).
I've found various websites on the Studebaker Commander, but the photos are too
small to pick out detail.
I suppose it will depend on the year built, but does anybody know where the "Commander"
name was placed on the car?
Now if Ted had picked the logo from a V.W. bus, maybe we would stand a better
chance!
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Commander
In a message dated 12/06/01 09:02:36 Pacific Standard Time, N414C(at)cableone.net
writes:
Unlike the youthful wing commander I am old enough to have driven a Commander.
You are such a Stud(ebaker)! I want one!
You really do have style, Dr. Milt.
Sir Barry, what year Studebaker logo do you think would have gone on the Spruce
Goose? One from the year it flew, or, earlier in its design phase?
Should we be looking for 1950 to 1952 logos?
I'll contact the Studebaker websites and find out what year they first made
the Commander model.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Why my engine quit |
Finally after exhausting all other possibilities I called Banyan in Orlando to
see if they had someone who could go fix the plane. Talked to Kevin Reiker head
of maintenance. He said sure and sent a mechanic the very next day. Gill found
the problem in no time and fixed it. Called me on my cell and explained what
he did as soon as he was finished. Less than 24 hours from first phone call
to repair and I got by cheap.
The bolt that anchored the mixture cable sheared and the thing autoleaned to idle
shutoff. And that's the rest of the story.
Banyan gets my vote for the next flyin.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Kerry Johnson wrote:
> 2. N400CH a 1965 680FLP with MR.RPM conversion.
>
> http://www.downtownairpark.com/okc/headfs.htm
>
> Any suggestions?
Kerry, I briefly looked at 400CH some time back (was doing some
business with it's owner). Looks like a very nice bird with
many desirable options. It has the turbo'd 720's and NEW props
with no ADs. I did not "inspect" it personally, but if you're
looking for that type of airplane it might be worth considering.
DTAP would sure be a good place to have it checked out!
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why my engine quit |
> N414C wrote:
> Banyan gets my vote for the next flyin.
Glad to hear 414C is all fixed up and that it wasn't anything
major. Just another example of going to the right people to
get a job done quickly and efficiently. I used to have to
argue with some of the Viking crowd about taking their airplanes
to the "experts". They always responded that their hourly rates
were "twice as much as _MY_ mechanic". Much like my business,
I have to make the point that if someone can do the job in a
quarter of the time due to their expertise, it's still a financial
win at twice the time-rate.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why my engine quit |
Like I mentioned before Banyan, might not have the cheapest hourly rates. but their
mechanics are first rate. I vote Banyan too, and invite them all to the
party.
Besides, who would not like a Fly-In in the balmy state of Florida with bikini
clad babes, and Palm Trees.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: N414C
To: Commander Tech Chat
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:58 PM
Subject: Why my engine quit
Finally after exhausting all other possibilities I called Banyan in Orlando to
see if they had someone who could go fix the plane. Talked to Kevin Reiker head
of maintenance. He said sure and sent a mechanic the very next day. Gill found
the problem in no time and fixed it. Called me on my cell and explained what
he did as soon as he was finished. Less than 24 hours from first phone call
to repair and I got by cheap.
The bolt that anchored the mixture cable sheared and the thing autoleaned to
idle shutoff. And that's the rest of the story.
Banyan gets my vote for the next flyin.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone seen a P&W powered 680? |
Jet said
> In 10,000 hours of turbine time I have only shut down 1 engine, and it was
a
> run away prop that we could not control.
I just depends on the operator, Jet.
I flew 3500 hours in Electra's for a "dirt ball" in Miami. In one seven day
period I shut down an engine 5 times and on the 7th day I three engine
ferried another airplane. That takes care of 2 out of a fleet of 5.
I was 34 once, too.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
I have found that you pay now or pay later, (Unfortunately) sometimes you do
both, and that means BUYER BEWARE. sorry if you missed a good deal.
JR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why my engine quit |
Besides, who would not like a Fly-In in the balmy state of Florida with bikini
clad babes, and Palm Trees.
My wife.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/6/01 2:31:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
> By hood, I know you really mean bonnet. If it were on the trunk, you'd
> really mean boot, wouldn't you? Now, let me tell you where the steering
> wheel should be...................
Is that English, or, just what language is, was, I mean, what did he mean, er
say??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Jet Paul had a flight and layover in Gulfport yesterday. Had a nice evening with
him. He is quite a knowledgeable young man and Southern Gentleman. Going to
pickup 414C tomorrow and hopefully will have an opportunity to meet John Williams
and his Big Yellow Commander in Marathon.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | 685 possibly for auction? |
Hello Commanderland,
N94WT, the 680F recently auctioned by the US Department of Justice, US
Marshals Service, was registered to them on November 20th.
Also registered to the same entity, on November 20th, was 685-12032,
N9199N. Does anyone know if that has been auctioned too?
The last positive info I had was that William F Bennett IV reported to the
FAA that he sold it on January 14th 1997 to Thomas M Jackson, dba Classic
Airworks, in Van Nuys, California. No Bill of Sale or Application for
Registration was submitted, and the aircraft had remained on the register
as "Sale Reported, Van Nuys, California" since December 22nd 1997.
If anyone is looking for a 685, this may be worth looking out for?
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY
If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible for
return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other than
the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road, Heathrow
Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
England and Wales.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com <MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 685 possibly for auction? |
Yes your right Barry its @ http://www.aso.com/ad/58275.
It should have sold yesterday with the 680FP. Kerry?
Also Kerry, I am curious to know what the Lear went for.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Why my engine quit |
> state of Florida with bikini clad babes
Hey Mark,
Gets my vote!
Cheers and beers
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | res00rbl <res00rbl(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 685 possibly for auction? |
Sir Barry - visit the aso website to view the 685 you mentioned.
It was to be bid on the same time as the 680F that was purchased. This
one apparently failed to get the minimum bid of $115K that was on the
original notification spec sheet. I just looked at it (as this new
posting), and found there to be no minimum stated bid requirement.
The bird looks to be in great condition, exterior-wise. The
radios (numerous) are in boxes in the cabin area (pictured), and the
spec sheet lists the units. Logs are not complete, and the license
expired in 1996, I believe.
Jim Jorgensen (Seattle)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | 685 possibly for auction? |
Hi Barry,
It was supposed to be auctioned off yesterday, but there was no bid
submitted. I think because of the minimum of $105,000.00. I looked it over
and it seems like a nice bird, however the logs indicated cylinder problems
about every 50 hours. If I remember correctly, it had all new cylinders
about 150 hours prior to the current hobbs reading. In the following 150
hours at least 4 jugs were changed due to failing compression tests. Either
there are serious problems with the engine, terrible pilot technique, or it
could also be a dishonest shop, just making $$$$$ off a dumb pilot.
Regards,
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk
[mailto:Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 7:26 AM
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: 685 possibly for auction?
Hello Commanderland,
N94WT, the 680F recently auctioned by the US Department of Justice, US
Marshals Service, was registered to them on November 20th.
Also registered to the same entity, on November 20th, was 685-12032,
N9199N. Does anyone know if that has been auctioned too?
The last positive info I had was that William F Bennett IV reported to the
FAA that he sold it on January 14th 1997 to Thomas M Jackson, dba Classic
Airworks, in Van Nuys, California. No Bill of Sale or Application for
Registration was submitted, and the aircraft had remained on the register
as "Sale Reported, Van Nuys, California" since December 22nd 1997.
If anyone is looking for a 685, this may be worth looking out for?
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY
If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible for
return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other than
the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road, Heathrow
Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
England and Wales.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 685 possibly for auction? |
Hi Mark,
The Lear 25 went to Jett Inn @ $187,000.00 theirs was the only bid.
-----Original Message-----
From: MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com [mailto:MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:19 AM
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: RE: 685 possibly for auction?
Yes your right Barry its @ http://www.aso.com/ad/58275.
It should have sold yesterday with the 680FP. Kerry?
Also Kerry, I am curious to know what the Lear went for.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 685 possibly for auction? |
Jim,
The 680FP went for $41,000.00.
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Martyn [mailto:vertigo(at)whidbey.net]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:59 AM
To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
Cc: commanderchat-request(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: 685 possibly for auction?
Kerry,
Just out of curiosity: what was the successful bid on the 680FP?
Jim Martyn
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerry Johnson
To: MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com
Cc: 'Commander Chat'
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 7:31 AM
Subject: RE: 685 possibly for auction?
Hi Mark,
The Lear 25 went to Jett Inn @ $187,000.00 theirs was the only bid.
-----Original Message-----
From: MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com [mailto:MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:19 AM
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: RE: 685 possibly for auction?
Yes your right Barry its @ http://www.aso.com/ad/58275.
It should have sold yesterday with the 680FP. Kerry?
Also Kerry, I am curious to know what the Lear went for.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | RE:680FP's for sale |
Kerry,
There are two 680FPs for sale on Controller www.aircraft.com
<http://www.aircraft.com/> .
http://www.premieraircraft.com/
Premier has N2001M that is a MR RPM conversion. It came from an estate
sale. Wing Commander Gordon checked the last owner out in it. Premier may
have a 680FLP with a Mr. RPM conversion coming available soon.
The 680FLP at Downtown Airpark, http://www.downtownairpark.com is N400 CH.
This is an aircraft that has had a lot spent on it. You may want to
consider it.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Johnson [mailto:kerry(at)kvelectric.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:59 AM
To: 'Jim Martyn'
Cc: 'Commander Chat'
Subject: RE: 685 possibly for auction?
Jim,
The 680FP went for $41,000.00.
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Martyn [mailto:vertigo(at)whidbey.net]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:59 AM
To: kerry(at)kvelectric.com
Cc: commanderchat-request(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: 685 possibly for auction?
Kerry,
Just out of curiosity: what was the successful bid on the 680FP?
Jim Martyn
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerry Johnson <mailto:kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
To: MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com
Cc: 'Commander Chat'
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 7:31 AM
Subject: RE: 685 possibly for auction?
Hi Mark,
The Lear 25 went to Jett Inn @ $187,000.00 theirs was the only bid.
-----Original Message-----
From: MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com <mailto:MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com>
[mailto:MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:19 AM
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: RE: 685 possibly for auction?
Yes your right Barry its @ http://www.aso.com/ad/58275.
It should have sold yesterday with the 680FP. Kerry?
Also Kerry, I am curious to know what the Lear went for.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | 680FLP Verse 685 |
Hi folks,
After reading up and looking at everything I can get my hands on, it looks
to me like the 680FLP will haul more weight and climb better, but is slower.
I'm guessing this is due to the 680's longer wingspan. Plus there is no
nagging Spar or Prop AD. Unless you have the MR RPM conversion and then you
also have the prop AD.
After looking over 94WT, I'm more convinced I want a Commander. Just the
engine cowlings and fasteners were impressive. They were really solid
compared to the other aircraft I have owned. If I can just find the right
one.........
Kerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Josh Garfield <JGarfie1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
I thought Minimum bid on the bird was $105,000.00?
Does minimum bid mean anything in these auctions?
How do you find out about them?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com>
To: "Commander Chat"
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 12:42 PM
Subject: 680FP N94WT
> Hi Folks,
>
> In case anyone is interested, 94WT went for
> $41,000.00. My bid was third, @$31,500.00(#@%!$@# ) so
> I guess I won't be flying this bird.
>
> My next options are:
>
> 1. Harry Merritt's 1963 680FP.
>
> 2. N400CH a 1965 680FLP with MR.RPM conversion.
>
> http://www.downtownairpark.com/okc/headfs.htm
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> What does the Mr. RPM conversion do as far as climb &
> cruise performance? Useful load? Weight & Balance?
> Fuel Burn? Misc.?
>
> Regards,
>
> Kerry
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 12/7/01 6:28:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
JGarfie1(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
> I thought Minimum bid on the bird was $105,000.00?
The 680F(P) sold for 41K, the 685 did not sell..............jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Josh Garfield <JGarfie1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
I am flying a 1959 560E N3846C. The check list we have in a small plastic
flip book seems very inadequate.
If you have it and its not too much trouble e-mail the checklists you
created on your computer and I will do the same thing?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Girod" <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
To: "Commander Chat"
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:17 PM
Subject: RE: Checklists
> Larry;
> I have a 560E, and I just took the checklist out of the POH, I copied them
> in RED for Emergency and GREEN for Normal (on my computer, with varying
> sized print for normal and expanded) took them to a print shop and had
them
> laminated in plastic and hooked together. I am pleased, not as small and
> compact as a B-727, but then I also don't have to get out the book for the
> expanded checklist either. I just use one checklist, not a normal and
> expanded as a Boeing or Douglas uses.
> Don
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Larry S. Wokral <L.Wokral(at)ix.netcom.com>
> > To: E-Mail List
> > Date: 12/4/01 1:31:28 PM
> > Subject: Checklists
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I just purchased a 500B a month ago. It is presently undergoing post
> annual
> > inspection maintenance, and I hope to be able to take delivery of it
this
> > weekend. Does anyone know of or use a commercially prepared operating
> > checklist similar to the Checkmate checklist? I called the Checkmate
> folks,
> > and they haven't developed one for the TC. Are you all using the
> checklists
> > directly out of the POH, just using the memory aide CIGAR, or is
something
> > else available.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Larry Wokral
>
>
> --- Lowell Girod
> --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
> --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
Hey Milt!! 900 bucks for a servicable transponder is about as cheap a price
as I have seen lately. Now if you keep in mind the money it would take to
have a non wilcox unit installed in your airplane, and do the 337 to change
the weight and balance, well you have yourself a deal to be able and R&R an
exisitng unit!!!
JetPaul
PS. Thanks so much for picking me up taking me to dinner Thursday night.
It was great to finally get to meet you and Gail!!!! Now I know first hand
why Dr. Milt was such a hit at the last fly-in!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
Joe,
I'm an Electrical Contractor and we work in Utah,
Arizona, Nevada, California, and Colorado. When we
take a job out of town, I usually fly my people out on
Monday morning and back on Thursday afternoon. Typical
mission would be: Fly 6 - 200+lb. men and gear, 300 NM
from SGU (St. George Utah) to PHX (Phoenix AZ) climb
to 15-19,000 depending on winds aloft. Return to SGU
empty, then pick the men up on Thursday. I will also
use the plane to attend pre-bid meetings etc., as well
as personal travel. My daughter plays Jr. Tennis in
USTA tournaments in UT, CO, WY, ID, NV, MT, & CA so
about once a month we travel 100-600 NM to these
tourny's.
Regards,
Kerry
--- COMMANDER560(at)cs.com wrote:
> YES I HAVE KERRY, I LIVE IN GA. IT GETS VERY WARM
> HERE IN THE SUMMER, BUT IT
> STILL GETS OFF AND CLIMBS BETTER THAN THE FP FL AND
> FLP, BUT IF YOU NEED
> SUPERCHARGERS IT WON'T DO THE JOB. I FLEW A 680E FOR
> A COMPANY YEARS AGO AND
> FOUND IT TO BE A VERY NICE AIRCRAFT BUT THEY ARE
> GETTING SOME AGE ON THEM
> NOW. BY THE WAY WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO USE THE AC
> FOR? YOU CAN'T BEAT THE
> COMMANDERS, YOU WILL ENJOY IT. JOE SHEPHERD
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com> |
Josh,
It was probably worth the $41K, but without any logs,
who knows.
I was too nervous to bid that much. The engines looked
good, like they had been overhauled recently, props
looked real rough, no radios in the racks, and the
missing radios were all Narco. There was an Apollo 360
GPS, but it wouldn't lock on to any satalite. Electric
trim was inop. rest of the Century III seemed OK.
There was also some damage in the tail before and aft
of the tail tie down, it had been repaired, but needed
to be painted. The right wing tip also was damaged.
Landing gear looked real good, no rust or corrosion on
the retract cylinders, bungies looked good. All in all
I thought it was in pretty good shape, but I was just
nervous about all the questions due to no logs. I
figured it would cost me about $50,000.00 to get it
flying.
Regards,
Kerry
--- Josh Garfield wrote:
> Thanks for responding. You think it was worth 41?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com>
> To: "Josh Garfield"
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 12:25 AM
> Subject: Re: 680FP N94WT
>
>
> > Hi Josh,
> >
> > Minimum Bid was $105,000.00 on the 685, but no one
> bid
> > on it. The 680FP Minimum was $15,000.00, there
> were a
> > bunch of bidders, high bid was $41,000.00. It was
> > advertised on ASO.com as well as TAP. I saw it on
> > ASO.com
> >
> > Kerry
> >
> >
> > --- Josh Garfield
> wrote:
> > > I thought Minimum bid on the bird was
> $105,000.00?
> > > Does minimum bid mean anything in these
> auctions?
> > > How do you find out about them?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerryvjohnson(at)yahoo.com>
> > > To: "Commander Chat"
> > >
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 12:42 PM
> > > Subject: 680FP N94WT
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Folks,
> > > >
> > > > In case anyone is interested, 94WT went for
> > > > $41,000.00. My bid was third,
> > > @$31,500.00(#@%!$@# ) so
> > > > I guess I won't be flying this bird.
> > > >
> > > > My next options are:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Harry Merritt's 1963 680FP.
> > > >
> > > > 2. N400CH a 1965 680FLP with MR.RPM
> conversion.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.downtownairpark.com/okc/headfs.htm
> > > >
> > > > Any suggestions?
> > > >
> > > > What does the Mr. RPM conversion do as far as
> > > climb &
> > > > cruise performance? Useful load? Weight &
> Balance?
> > > > Fuel Burn? Misc.?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Kerry
> > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
> > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
> > http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Janitrol for AC560 |
Well, I seemed somehow to have lost the e-mail that referred to the shop
that had the new Janitrol parts that would work for my AC-560. They never
returned my phone call, and need to get back in touch with them.
Can someone forward the e-mail from about a month ago that referred to it
please.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Lundborg <dltafolk(at)inreach.com> |
Hi Group,
Has anyone got any info on N19VZ, serial # 560F-976-3 ...it's lying
in Madera, Ca. I am going to bid on it but it needs fuel bladders and one
engine is out of TBO plus it is loaded with old CESSNA 300 radio gear.
It looks like a project that could get out of hand I'm wondering if it
fits the senario of the free commander on the web site or I see there are a
few for sale between 65k and 125k all running and decent times on the
engines.
Any input on this aircraft would be apreciated.
Craig Lundborg
TCFG member,shedding a Cessna and looking for a Commander
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com <RnJThompson(at)aol.com> |
Hi Craig,
Beware of projects if you Are not very knowledgeable on the workings,are able
to do alot of the work yourself,or able to get it done at a reasonable rate.
These old birds need to have everything done to them, every hose,pump etc.
The up side is that you end up with a fresh bird good for the next 20 years.
So if you spend 100K on the bird you will be way ahead of the flying ones for
the same price. A lot of people will tell you its a waste but common sense
tells you that the person out there looking to buy will pay more for a bird
that has had recent work over than one that has not. At least you have agood
idea on what you are buying.
Dont be in a hurry there is more work on these things than you can imagine.
Regards,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com <MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Janitrol for AC560 |
Mark,
Try (http://www.aircraftheating.com) E-mail link is at the top of the page. Good
luck.
Mark P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | H. James McConnell <skipper10(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Janitrol for AC560 |
We have just had a new improved version of the 35k,24-VDC heater installed
in our 560. C & D Associates, Inc Buchanan, MI (Niles, MI) did the job at
about 2/3 the cost of a rebuild of the old heater and were the lowest price
we found after several months of searching. Job was very well done. Call
"Sandy" at 616-695-7469. Jim McConnell, President, Pilots for Christ,
Int'l.
----- Original Message -----
From: <MRPOULIN27(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Janitrol for AC560
> Mark,
>
> Try (http://www.aircraftheating.com) E-mail link is at the top of the
page. Good luck.
>
> Mark P.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Sure is quiet out there |
Where are all you PhuKen Av8ors and what are you doing?
Chris how goes the FP?
Haven't heard from Paul Odom lately?
Nico has been unusually quiet?
Will we ever get to see Keith on a Tricycle?
If you live down under can you ever get it up?
Will the Orenda engines ever be affordable?
Will Kerry ever find the right airplane?
Am I the only one without enough to do today?
Big Al are there no more rednecks?
Little Crunk you spill any oil lately?
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net> |
Picked up 414C this weekend.
Left Punta Gorda to take on passengers in Sarasota and then on to Marathon in the
Keys for lunch at the Cracked Conche Cafe with John Williams. Marathon airport
is easy to find. You can see Johns big Yellow Commander at the approach end
of Runway 7 from 20 miles out.
After lunch back to Punta Gorda to offload passengers and then home to Mississippi.
As we traversed the Gulf we could see the fog enveloping the entire Gulf
Coast when not IMC. Picked up a little ice climbing to altitude but it disappeared
quickly. Approached Gulfport quite late and instead of going to my home base
and shooting an NDB to minimums I wussed out and took an ILS into Gulfport
and landed in visual conditions. Next day went back and flew plane to Stennis
International in Bay ST Louis Miss. (Population 5000) It was nice to fly again
especially on 2 engines. Some minor squawks to take care of and then off to
a meet with Big Al, Crunk x 2, Jet Paul, and Tillman. Hope everyone else had a
good weekend.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sure is quiet out there |
Phuh Khen AV8ers are all going to New Orleans for NBAA. I got a ride in a
Ted Smith Aerostar, 602P 700.
We leave tomorrow from Kansas City, OJC.
I hope to find some of the answers to your questions about Orenda engines
and the right propeller for a 680FLP with IO-720s.
You will have to ask Chris if his engine is ready yet.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: N414C [mailto:N414C(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:50 PM
To: Commander BSChat Chat
Subject: Sure is quiet out there
Where are all you PhuKen Av8ors and what are you doing?
Chris how goes the FP?
Haven't heard from Paul Odom lately?
Nico has been unusually quiet?
Will we ever get to see Keith on a Tricycle?
If you live down under can you ever get it up?
Will the Orenda engines ever be affordable?
Will Kerry ever find the right airplane?
Am I the only one without enough to do today?
Big Al are there no more rednecks?
Little Crunk you spill any oil lately?
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sure is quiet out there |
Nico,
Are you able to find out anything about Pelican Air while you are in So.
Africa?
We are now getting weekly e-mails. Shawns grandmother passed away recently
was the reason for a lack of communication. Now we are back on track and
should hear from him on his buying 8-680FLs.
If you cant, no big deal.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: Nico van Niekerk [mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:38 PM
To: Tylor Hall; N414C; Commander BSChat Chat
Subject: Re: Sure is quiet out there
I'm in South Africa currently. Spent some 23 hours riding in the cattle car
via London to Johannesburg. Saw my ageing mother. What a lovely soul and in
such good spirits when so much has already been taken from her. Truly a
lesson in life to visit with her.
Anyway, I will do some more Commander hunting while I am here, although the
time is quite limited due to pressures (brought the family along this time
for a vacation which was tacked onto the back end of the business trip).
Is there any truth in the rumour that when an airline's non-critical
equipment (such as the seats, entertainment system and so on) show lack of
repair and maintenance that it foreshadows something more serious?
Thanks
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Tylor Hall <mailto:tylorh(at)sound.net>
To: N414C ; Commander BSChat Chat
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: Sure is quiet out there
Phuh Khen AV8ers are all going to New Orleans for NBAA. I got a ride in a
Ted Smith Aerostar, 602P 700.
We leave tomorrow from Kansas City, OJC.
I hope to find some of the answers to your questions about Orenda engines
and the right propeller for a 680FLP with IO-720s.
You will have to ask Chris if his engine is ready yet.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
-----Original Message-----
From: N414C [mailto:N414C(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:50 PM
To: Commander BSChat Chat
Subject: Sure is quiet out there
Where are all you PhuKen Av8ors and what are you doing?
Chris how goes the FP?
Haven't heard from Paul Odom lately?
Nico has been unusually quiet?
Will we ever get to see Keith on a Tricycle?
If you live down under can you ever get it up?
Will the Orenda engines ever be affordable?
Will Kerry ever find the right airplane?
Am I the only one without enough to do today?
Big Al are there no more rednecks?
Little Crunk you spill any oil lately?
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sure is quiet out there |
In a message dated 12/10/01 19:03:36 Pacific Standard Time,
N414C(at)cableone.net writes:
> Will we ever get to see Keith on a Tricycle?
Better to see me on that, than on teracycline, right Doc?
> f you live down under can you ever get it up?
I think the blokes Down Under have trouble getting it back down.
Wing Commader Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Sure is quiet out there |
> Where are all you PhuKen Av8ors and what are you doing?
> Chris how goes the FP?
> Haven't heard from Paul Odom lately?
> Nico has been unusually quiet?
> Will we ever get to see Keith on a Tricycle?
> If you live down under can you ever get it up?
> Will the Orenda engines ever be affordable?
> Will Kerry ever find the right airplane?
> Am I the only one without enough to do today?
> Big Al are there no more rednecks?
> Little Crunk you spill any oil lately?
> Milt
>
>
Gday Milt and all,
The act of getting it up is going just fine right here downunder!
Things have been a little quiet on the Commander front which is a little
depressing.
I just got back from a week of trying to hunt down an out of service 680E
airframe in Perth, Western Australia...long story! Looks like the scrap guys
have beaten me to it :-( (Not good news Sir Barry!)
Also had a look at some stinger tail equipped Shrikes which are doing some
mineral survey work.
Our wet season is really starting to kick in now with some major periods of
rain here in Katherine. Humidity is still painful though.
Great to hear that 414C is going again and I bet some no-name was consumed
with Crunksx2 and Big Al! Hope you bought a round for me!
Cheers and no-name
Russell
Ps Nico when do you leave South Africa? My old mate will be in Joburg from
23 December for 3 weeks with stops in Maputo in mid January to look at some
Shrikes there.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sure is quiet out there |
It is quiet, and for some reason, the internet Gods have decided to forbid
me from collecting my office e mail at home. So, unless I'm at work, I don't
see all y'alls pontifications :0)
Will Kerry ever find "the right airplane"? No one knows, but one things for
sure, he'll pester the hell out of everyone until he does.
-----Original Message-----
From: N414C [mailto:N414C(at)cableone.net]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:50 PM
To: Commander BSChat Chat
Subject: Sure is quiet out there
Where are all you PhuKen Av8ors and what are you doing?
Chris how goes the FP?
Haven't heard from Paul Odom lately?
Nico has been unusually quiet?
Will we ever get to see Keith on a Tricycle?
If you live down under can you ever get it up?
Will the Orenda engines ever be affordable?
Will Kerry ever find the right airplane?
Am I the only one without enough to do today?
Big Al are there no more rednecks?
Little Crunk you spill any oil lately?
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560 |
Does anyone have any difinitive information on converting the Goodyear brakes to
Clevelands on a Straight AC-560.
I have been looking for a few years, and get conflicting stories. I have plenty
of spare pucks, and my brakes are fine, but I would love to change them out.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sure is quiet out there |
Re: Sure is quiet out thereTwo Christmas Days stand out in my professional career.
One was in Seoul, not very good, and one in Maputo 1980(enough said).
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Russell Legg ; Commander BSChat Chat
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Sure is quiet out there
I will be in Johannesburg area till Saturday 12/15 and then for a couple of days
beaching in Jeffreys Bay. Christmas will be spent in the Karoo and then by
the 27th about we should be back in Pretoria. We fly out again on the 30th heading
for Southern California.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Legg
To: Commander BSChat Chat
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: Sure is quiet out there
Where are all you PhuKen Av8ors and what are you doing?
Chris how goes the FP?
Haven't heard from Paul Odom lately?
Nico has been unusually quiet?
Will we ever get to see Keith on a Tricycle?
If you live down under can you ever get it up?
Will the Orenda engines ever be affordable?
Will Kerry ever find the right airplane?
Am I the only one without enough to do today?
Big Al are there no more rednecks?
Little Crunk you spill any oil lately?
Milt
G'day Milt and all,
The act of getting it up is going just fine right here downunder!
Things have been a little quiet on the Commander front which is a little depressing.
I just got back from a week of trying to hunt down an out of service 680E airframe
in Perth, Western Australia...long story! Looks like the scrap guys have
beaten me to it :-( (Not good news Sir Barry!)
Also had a look at some stinger tail equipped Shrikes which are doing some
mineral survey work.
Our wet season is really starting to kick in now with some major periods of
rain here in Katherine. Humidity is still painful though.
Great to hear that 414C is going again and I bet some no-name was consumed
with Crunksx2 and Big Al! Hope you bought a round for me!
Cheers and no-name
Russell
Ps Nico when do you leave South Africa? My old mate will be in Jo'burg from
23 December for 3 weeks with stops in Maputo in mid January to look at some Shrikes
there.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sure is quiet out there |
> N414C wrote:
> Chris how goes the FP?
Frustratingly slowly...
Took the new engine out week before last. Unfortunately, many little
details are yet to be attended to. Lots of stuff to be sent out for
overhaul, parts to be acquired yet, etc...
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560 |
If it aint broke I wouldn't fix it.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Woodley
To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 10:08 AM
Subject: Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560
Does anyone have any difinitive information on converting the Goodyear brakes
to Clevelands on a Straight AC-560.
I have been looking for a few years, and get conflicting stories. I have plenty
of spare pucks, and my brakes are fine, but I would love to change them out.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sure is quiet out there |
Re: Sure is quiet out thereI took a job with Caledonian Airlines Inc. of Beirut
Lebanon. to begin service for Air Tanzania from Dar es Salem to London. We were
to fly a Boeing 720A(short 707) in the service. Once we got to Dar we were
told we were flying troops from Mtwara to Berra and Maputo, this was after the
Rhodesian cease fire. When we finally started the service it became apparent
that out of Killamanjaro to London we could carry 29 passengers. We lasted
30 days away from the U.S. and were never paid. We were screwed and so were
the Tanzanians.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Bow
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Sure is quiet out there
In around 1980 Maputo was in ruins due to a decade of communist rule. I flew
many trips with my AC into Maputo and from there onto the island of Inhaca about
a year later to assist the government in establishing some tourism industry.
It took them another decade to get some form of tourism established, which is
still very much below par.
I have videos of my AC filled to the brim with hotel appliances to be installed
on the Island. I can talk a long time about the evils of communism and its
modern successor: liberalism.
But as you have wisely said: enough said.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Bow
To: Nico van Niekerk
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Sure is quiet out there
Two Christmas Days stand out in my professional career. One was in Seoul,
not very good, and one in Maputo 1980(enough said).
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Russell Legg ; Commander BSChat Chat
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Sure is quiet out there
I will be in Johannesburg area till Saturday 12/15 and then for a couple
of days beaching in Jeffreys Bay. Christmas will be spent in the Karoo and then
by the 27th about we should be back in Pretoria. We fly out again on the 30th
heading for Southern California.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell Legg
To: Commander BSChat Chat
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: Sure is quiet out there
Where are all you PhuKen Av8ors and what are you doing?
Chris how goes the FP?
Haven't heard from Paul Odom lately?
Nico has been unusually quiet?
Will we ever get to see Keith on a Tricycle?
If you live down under can you ever get it up?
Will the Orenda engines ever be affordable?
Will Kerry ever find the right airplane?
Am I the only one without enough to do today?
Big Al are there no more rednecks?
Little Crunk you spill any oil lately?
Milt
G'day Milt and all,
The act of getting it up is going just fine right here downunder!
Things have been a little quiet on the Commander front which is a little
depressing.
I just got back from a week of trying to hunt down an out of service 680E
airframe in Perth, Western Australia...long story! Looks like the scrap guys
have beaten me to it :-( (Not good news Sir Barry!)
Also had a look at some stinger tail equipped Shrikes which are doing some
mineral survey work.
Our wet season is really starting to kick in now with some major periods
of rain here in Katherine. Humidity is still painful though.
Great to hear that 414C is going again and I bet some no-name was consumed
with Crunksx2 and Big Al! Hope you bought a round for me!
Cheers and no-name
Russell
Ps Nico when do you leave South Africa? My old mate will be in Jo'burg
from 23 December for 3 weeks with stops in Maputo in mid January to look at some
Shrikes there.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560 |
In a message dated 12/11/01 7:23:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
woodlema(at)intrex.net writes:
> Does anyone have any difinitive information on converting the Goodyear
> brakes to Clevelands on a Straight AC-560.
>
> I have been looking for a few years, and get conflicting stories. I have
> plenty of spare pucks, and my brakes are fine, but I would love to change
> them out.
>
>
HI MARK.......
There is no STC for the 520 or 560 :-( The brakes will
physically fit with the addition of a simple spacer on the axle, but without
paperwork?? Sorry, but that is the "straight skinny".....jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560 |
In a message dated 12/11/01 10:31:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com writes:
> Jim, Mark.....I am getting the part number and 337 infor for your use. It
> can be done....I done it....email me your fax number and I'f fax the 337 to
> you along with the part numbers you will need.
THANKS.......
I must share some bad news with you here. The FAA, once upon a
time, would allow you to use paperwork from other airplanes to aquire a field
approval for your airplane. Sadly, and in no small part because of type
clubs like ours, the FAA no longer allows the use of that paper work. This
is because some groups (the Bonanza society) would have a member get a field
approval and then the whole club would march into their local office, copies
of the first airplanes paperwork in hand, and apply for the same approval.
That essentially became an STC.
The FAA, rightly or wrongly, saw this as an assault on the STC system
and put a stop to it some years back.
So, even if you have the 337 and the one time STC or field approval,
it cannot be considered when applying for the approval on another airplane.
The process will need to be completely duplicated on your airplane. All this
while the whine and snivel about being so overworked and under staffed. They
wont even let you remove "approved" brakes from one airplane and install them
on another identical airplane!! go figure. Sorry, but I just thought you
should know before you get to excited......jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earthlink <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560 |
Any info on a spacer or specific details on what is needed> I will look into getting
field approval for it being I think kit 199-80 is the one I need.
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 12:47 PM
Subject: Fwd: Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560
In a message dated 12/11/01 7:23:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, woodlema(at)intrex.net
writes:
Does anyone have any difinitive information on converting the Goodyear brakes
to Clevelands on a Straight AC-560.
I have been looking for a few years, and get conflicting stories. I have plenty
of spare pucks, and my brakes are fine, but I would love to change them
out.
HI MARK.......
There is no STC for the 520 or 560 :-( The brakes will physically
fit with the addition of a simple spacer on the axle, but without paperwork??
Sorry, but that is the "straight skinny".....jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560 |
In a message dated 12/11/01 11:44:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
woodlema(at)intrex.net writes:
> Any info on a spacer or specific details on what is needed> I will look into
> getting field approval for it being I think kit 199-80 is the one I need.
CALL Morris 510-783-3028...Good luck jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS.......
Listen up, all you 560A-HC 560E 680, 680E and 720
guys......(didnt somebody just buy a 720??) Anyway, here is the deal of the
century. I have found a pair of B3Z propellers with about 100 SOH (no logs)
but they are at a very reputable prop shop and they look really good. I can
get you the props and STC, complete for $6500!!! No more AD inspection. The
prop shop will IRAN or Overhaul them but they said they really look good and
probably don't need anything.
Call today!!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
>
> http://www.garys-place.com/ftp/stretchi.mpe
> http://www.nestreetriders.com/linkedto/guessagain.asf
>
Okay guys, it's apparently time for "the talk"(tm) again...
There are TWO lists: "chat" and "tech". I think the explaination
should be clear. There are many folks on the tech list who are not
on the chat list. Some of these people only want to receive minimal
email, and only that related to Commander technical discussions.
That's why I created two lists! PLEASE pay a little attention to
what you're doing and don't spam the tech list.
Also, it would be nice if I could get everyone to prune their reply-
to lists. The mail system is set up to allow you to respond directly
to the sender (in order to take responses off line). You can also
use your reply-all function to include the list. If you do that, it
would be good form to remove the orig. address(s) from your to list
as they will each get two copies.
Finally, should you wish to share large files with the group, there
are kinder ways than a mass email. If you send me the files, I will
make them available in the temporary section of the web site for
people who want them. Remember, there are still a lot of folks with
modem links.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earthlink <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Some humerous links. |
http://www.garys-place.com/ftp/stretchi.mpe
http://www.nestreetriders.com/linkedto/guessagain.asf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NBAA Convention In New Orleans Dec 12-14 |
In a message dated 12/12/01 05:17:14 Pacific Standard Time,
yundt(at)speakeasy.net writes:
> My company (Dassault Falcon Jet Corp) is an exibitor and I have access to a
> few FREE passes.
George,
Thanks for the most generous invitation! I wish I could take you up on it;
I'd love to get your sales pitch on a Falcon 900EX and would like to see your
AC-685 -- not necessarily in that order.
Regrettably, I'm flying a vintage Falcon this week and can't make NBAA this
year.
If you can get to the convention hall, stroll over to Twin Commander Aircraft
Corp. and say hello to them.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Don Girod sumbitted an _excellent_ flyby video of his 560.
You can enjoy it at the "temporary" section of the web site. Also
posted a brief clip of Bob Hoover as well.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Matthews <dmatthews(at)centillium.com> |
Greetings All,
As a new member of the group (I signed up today), allow me to introduce
myself. My name is David Matthews. I am a Software Engineering Consultant
by trade, and an Instrument-Rated Private Pilot for fun. I am based in
North Alabama, and am obviously interested in Twin Commanders! I want to
learn from this group's experiences in hopes of becoming a Twin Commander
owner soon.
Regards,
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
Where can I get a Parts Manual for my 500A?
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: dumb question |
Bow wrote:
> Where can I get a Parts Manual for my 500A?
All the manuals are still available directly from TCAC.
http://www.twincommander.com
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560 |
Not a problem, I have an "IN" with the FSDO. I will use the paperwork to get preliminary
field approval. I Have done this before, and had no issues. The key
here in my experience is to include the FAA guy before you even order parts.
I guess it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 1:48 PM
Subject: Fwd: Cleveland Brakes for an AC-560
In a message dated 12/11/01 10:31:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com
writes:
Jim, Mark.....I am getting the part number and 337 infor for your use. It
can be done....I done it....email me your fax number and I'f fax the 337 to you
along with the part numbers you will need.
THANKS.......
I must share some bad news with you here. The FAA, once upon a
time, would allow you to use paperwork from other airplanes to aquire a field
approval for your airplane. Sadly, and in no small part because of type clubs
like ours, the FAA no longer allows the use of that paper work. This is because
some groups (the Bonanza society) would have a member get a field approval
and then the whole club would march into their local office, copies of the first
airplanes paperwork in hand, and apply for the same approval. That essentially
became an STC.
The FAA, rightly or wrongly, saw this as an assault on the STC system
and put a stop to it some years back.
So, even if you have the 337 and the one time STC or field approval, it
cannot be considered when applying for the approval on another airplane. The
process will need to be completely duplicated on your airplane. All this while
the whine and snivel about being so overworked and under staffed. They wont
even let you remove "approved" brakes from one airplane and install them on another
identical airplane!! go figure. Sorry, but I just thought you should
know before you get to excited......jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kerry Johnson <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Introduction |
Welcome David,
I'm new too, as of about two weeks ago anyway. I think you will the folks
here to be top notch; it must have something to do with the rampant
Commanderitus.
Regards,
Kerry (KVJ)
-----Original Message-----
From: David Matthews [mailto:dmatthews(at)centillium.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:12 PM
To: 'commanderchat@c2-tech.com'; 'commandertech@c2-tech.com'
Subject: Introduction
Greetings All,
As a new member of the group (I signed up today), allow me to introduce
November 24, 2001 - December 12, 2001
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ai