Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ap

July 08, 2002 - September 12, 2002



      
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Date: Jul 08, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: fuel cells
In a message dated 7/7/02 6:24:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, br549phil(at)mindspring.com writes: > Anyone recomend a source for fuel cells? > Also looking for a used spinner for a 560F. > Phil Stubbs > N160K HI PHIL.. Floats and fuel cells is one of the nations largest suppliers of fuel cells and will be giving a seminar at the fly-in in September. Call 1-800 647-6148 ask for Walter Dodge and tell him you hear about him from the group. good luck jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Update
Life is just weird.... Would you believe we have over a dozen new chat/tech list members over the last week? Several are current owners (a 680, two 560s and a 500B if memory serves). One of these days after my personal trauma calms a bit, I'd sure like to get the owners registry section of the web site updated. I don't think it reflects 10% of the owners now on the list.... Thanks to all who have offered assistance with the web site and chatlist. Still digging through the options at this time. Rest assured that things WON'T go away though. Might be a hiccup or two along the road, but this list and the web site will continue! Cheers to JB on his official return to the air. Lets all hope that the current level of public and govt insanity about GA doesn't impact us any further than it already has. Y'all fly good out there. We sure don't need any more bad press than we already have! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: LIST/BOARD
HI KIDS. Chris and I have had a conversation about the future of the list and the site. They are really two separate issues. The web site will be a bit harder for me to get my fingers around because of my relative computer ignorance, but I am certain that a solution is forth coming. The list is somewhat easier. I have proposed to Chris that we change the format from the email list to a message board. This has several advantages including being virus proof. It is also easier for me to manage and allows for a message to remain posted longer and therefor has a longer shelf life. There are advantages and disadvantages to both formats. What do you want?? It seems logical that I eventually take the responsibility of maintaining these important venues and will start with the message board. The transition will be as smooth as Chris and I can make it. It is impossible to put into words the gratitude I feel for all that Chris has done and continues to do, Thank you my friend!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 2002
From: Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: N40TC
All, The crop dusters as fire fighters are Polish Dromaders, the engine is a license built Wright R-1820. They are also used as firefighters in Australia. Cheers, Bill Hamilton >On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 10:08 AM, Kerry Johnson wrote: > > >>Another Shrike showed up on our ramp last week. I think it's here doing >>recon for all the fire fighters. There is also two Helios and Three "BIG" > >Those are Damadieres (sp?) Same engine and prop that's on the AN-2 Colt.... >>round single engine crop duster type planes, all of which have that Polish >>PZL round motor strapped to the front. Fun to watch them work, but sure is a >>shame to see all the pretty timber burning. > >We had another small brushfire here today...CDF was up to the challenge >and no homes were lost. This fire season is going to be ugly, I'm afraid.... > > >>Kerry >> >Barry Hancock >9 Leatherwood Court >Coto de Caza, CA 92679 >cell: (949) 300-5510 >fax: (949) 766-0590 >radialpower(at)cox.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: LIST/BOARD
Message board has worked well for us at our union(though I have never used it). bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:00 PM Subject: LIST/BOARD HI KIDS. Chris and I have had a conversation about the future of the list and the site. They are really two separate issues. The web site will be a bit harder for me to get my fingers around because of my relative computer ignorance, but I am certain that a solution is forth coming. The list is somewhat easier. I have proposed to Chris that we change the format from the email list to a message board. This has several advantages including being virus proof. It is also easier for me to manage and allows for a message to remain posted longer and therefor has a longer shelf life. There are advantages and disadvantages to both formats. What do you want?? It seems logical that I eventually take the responsibility of maintaining these important venues and will start with the message board. The transition will be as smooth as Chris and I can make it. It is impossible to put into words the gratitude I feel for all that Chris has done and continues to do, Thank you my friend!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: LIST/BOARD
On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 07:00 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: > The list is somewhat easier. I have proposed to Chris that we > change the format from the email list to a message board. This has > several advantages including being virus proof. It is also easier for > me to manage and allows for a message to remain posted longer and > therefor has a longer shelf life. > JB, everyone. I have a list solution that could be quite painless. Matt Dralle has been hosting *several* aircraft specific lists for years at www.matronics.com. I use the Yak-list in much the same way I use the Commander lists. The beautiful thing about his lists is that you can receive the messages individually, or once a day in the Digest version. Also they are archived forever and can be accessed anytime and are sortable in any number of ways. JB, if you would like, I will contact Matt regarding this. However, since he maintains well over two dozen lists, I don't see it being a problem at all. Let me know... Barry Hancock 9 Leatherwood Court Coto de Caza, CA 92679 cell: (949) 300-5510 fax: (949) 766-0590 radialpower(at)cox.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: List/board
In a message dated 7/8/02 11:49:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: > Thanks > Nico > > WILL DO NICO. We are still figuring this out, but it seems to make the most sense for it to ultimately fall in my camp. Thanks.jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2002
From: Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
Subject: Re: LIST/BOARD
All, Hi. I am Glenn Sneed out of Denver, CO and am new to the discussion group. Not being an owner/operator yet, I found Chris site as I searched the net for sites on the Twin Commander. (It is an excellent site, I might add.) JB's idea of moving things to message board or discussion group would reduced the admin job of managing the site. Yahoo has this setup and it offers good service. I belong to another group at Yahoo. It offers extra areas where the group could store file, pictures, and archive past message blocks. It would keep your mail box from filling up but allow access to send individual emails between persons. It has the possibility to reduce the admin.'s workload. The Yahoo group has these specific area: - Home Page: It describes the group's function, joining info, menu options, and several of the latest messages - Message section - Picture section - File section - Bookmarks of reverent sites - Database: Possibly the owner's list - Polls - Members List - Calendar for events So there is my 2 cents. GS -----Original Message----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com [mailto:YOURTCFG(at)aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 8:00 PM To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Subject: LIST/BOARD HI KIDS. Chris and I have had a conversation about the future of the list and the site. They are really two separate issues. The web site will be a bit harder for me to get my fingers around because of my relative computer ignorance, but I am certain that a solution is forth coming. The list is somewhat easier. I have proposed to Chris that we change the format from the email list to a message board. This has several advantages including being virus proof. It is also easier for me to manage and allows for a message to remain posted longer and therefor has a longer shelf life. There are advantages and disadvantages to both formats. What do you want?? It seems logical that I eventually take the responsibility of maintaining these important venues and will start with the message board. The transition will be as smooth as Chris and I can make it. It is impossible to put into words the gratitude I feel for all that Chris has done and continues to do, Thank you my friend!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: List/board
> Nico van Niekerk wrote: > Should I conclude that you would not take up my offer to host the mail > list? Nico, Sorry for not responding earlier. As you can well imagine, the breakup and shutdown of a company (and dealing with various contracts, lawsuits, employee terminations, etc) is taking up about 25 hours a day and every spare brain-cycle I have. I just havn't had the time to carefully analyze all the options and offers. I _sincerely_ appreciate what you've offered to do! I still have a bit of time (and who knows, maybe even have the ability to continue the site/list myself - just don't know what the next weeks will bring) to get things worked out. Not an emergency yet. I know that JB wants to be involved in the ongoing of the list/site and I would certainly like for him to be involved. I don't think he has the technical resources to do it himself however. Might be a situation where several folks will need to colaborate. anyway....more a bit later chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: List/board
Nico and JB, I've been pretty swamped with stuff over the last two weeks.... Anyway, Jim, it sounds like Nico has some knowledge and resources which will be very valuable. He's the only one who seems to know how to handle the DNS updates (or at least tosses terms like "MX record" about with glee :-) Here's my suggestion based on what I know right now: - I loan the "aerocommander.com" domain and web site contents to the TCFG until such time as I am able to properly service it again. I'll continue to pay for and own the domain and if I ever decide I don't want to be involved any longer, the TCFG will be offered the domain first as long as JB is operating it. - Jim, you work with Nico to provide the actual hosting services. I can create a zip or tar file of the site contents to send to him. The underlying structure of the web site is nicely laid out and should be very maintainable. Chris Wall has offered HTML authoring services. I'd prefer to see the basic directory structure of the web site to be kept up if possible as I put a lot of thought and effort into creating something that could be easily modified and expanded. I'd really like to see someone get actively back into updating and upgrading the content. - There have been several good suggestions about hosting a message board. Jim, I leave it to you to select and create the board. Once you get something set up, I'll assist with testing and checking it out and when it's stable and acceptable, I'll provide files containing the tech and chat membership lists. thoughts/questions? chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Thank you, my friend.........
> > > > THE CAB RIDE > > > > > > Twenty years ago, I drove a cab for a living. > > > When I arrived at 2:30 a.m., the building was dark > > except for a single > > > light > > > in a ground floor window. Under these > > circumstances, many drivers would > > > just > > > honk once or twice, wait a minute, then drive > > away. > > > > > > But, I had seen too many impoverished people who > > depended on taxis as > > > their > > > only means of transportation. Unless a situation > > smelled of danger, I > > > always > > > went to the door. This passenger might be someone > > who needs my > > > assistance, I > > > reasoned to myself. > > > > > > So I walked to the door and knocked. "Just a > > minute", answered a frail, > > > elderly voice. I could hear something being > > dragged across the floor. > > > > > > After a long pause, the door opened. A small > > woman in her 80's stood > > > before > > > me. She was wearing a print dress and a pillbox > > hat with a veil pinned on > > > > > > it, like somebody out of a 1940s movie. > > > > > > By her side was a small nylon suitcase. The > > apartment looked as if no one > > > had lived in it for years. All the furniture was > > covered with sheets. > > > There > > > were no clocks on the walls, no knickknacks or > > utensils on the counters. > > > In the corner was a cardboard box filled with > > photos and glassware. > > > > > > "Would you carry my bag out to the car?" she said. > > I took the suitcase to > > > the cab, then returned to assist the woman. > > > > > > She took my arm and we walked slowly toward the > > curb. She kept thanking > > > me > > > for my kindness. > > > > > > "It's nothing", I told her. "I just try to treat > > my passengers the way I > > > would want my mother treated". > > > > > > "Oh, you're such a good boy", she said. > > > > > > When we got in the cab, she gave me an address, > > then asked, > > > "Could you drive through downtown?" > > > > > > "It's not the shortest way," I answered quickly. > > > > > > "Oh, I don't mind," she said. "I'm in no hurry. > > I'm on my way to a > > > hospice". > > > > > > I looked in the rearview mirror. Her eyes were > > glistening. > > > > > > "I don't have any family left," she continued. > > "The doctor says I don't > > > have > > > very long." > > > > > > I quietly reached over and shut off the meter. > > "What route would you like > > > me > > > to take?" I asked. > > > > > > For the next two hours, we drove through the city. > > She showed me the > > > building where she had once worked as an elevator > > operator. We drove > > > through > > > the neighborhood where she and her husband had > > lived when they were > > > newlyweds. She had me pull up in front of a > > furniture warehouse that had > > > once been a ballroom where she had gone dancing as > > a girl. > > > > > > Sometimes she'd ask me to slow in front of a > > particular building or corner > > > > > > and would sit staring into the darkness, saying > > nothing. > > > > > > As the first hint of sun was creasing the horizon, > > she suddenly said, "I'm > > > > > > tired. Let's go now." > > > > > > We drove in silence to the address she had given > > me. It was a low > > > building, > > > like a small convalescent home, with a driveway > > that passed under a > > > portico. > > > > > > Two orderlies came out to the cab as soon as we > > pulled up. They were > > > solicitous and intent, watching her every move. > > They must have been > > > expecting her. > > > > > > > > I opened the trunk and took the small suitcase to > > the door. The woman was > > > > > > already seated in a wheelchair. > > > > > > "How much do I owe you?" she asked, reaching into > > her purse. > > > "Nothing," I said. > > > > > > "You have to make a living," she answered. > > > > > > "There are other passengers," I responded. > > > Almost without thinking, I bent and gave her a > > hug. She held onto me > > > tightly. > > > > > > "You gave an old woman a little moment of joy," > > she said. "Thank you." > > > > > > I squeezed her hand, then walked into the dim > > morning light. > > > Behind me, a door shut. > > > It was the sound of the closing of a life. > > > > > > I didn't pick up any more passengers that shift. I > > drove aimlessly, lost > > > in > > > thought. For the rest of that day, I could hardly > > talk. > > > > > > What if that woman had gotten an angry driver, or > > one who was impatient to > > > > > > end his shift? > > > What if I had refused to take the run, or had > > honked once, then driven > > > away? > > > > > > On a quick review, I don't think that I have done > > anything more important > > > in > > > my life. > > > We're conditioned to think that our lives revolve > > around great moments. > > > But great moments often catch us > > unaware--beautifully wrapped in what > > > others > > > may consider a small one. > > > > > > PEOPLE MAY NOT REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT `YOU DID, OR > > WHAT YOU SAID, > > > ~BUT ~ > > > THEY WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER HOW YOU MADE THEM FEEL. > > > > > > Pass this on to all your friends. > > > You won't get any big surprise in 10 days if you > > send it to ten people. > > > But, you might help make the world a little kinder > > and more compassionate > > > by > > > sending it on. > > > Thank you, my friend.... > > > > > > > > > >===== >SHALOM + + + Louise & Jere Manhein >P.O. Box 45 McKenzie, TN 38201 >Ph.731/352-9920 mobile 731/234-5437 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free >http://sbc.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re:
Pie ChartsYou damn sure better use one. DON'T GIVE ONE OF THOSE "CROOKED ASS" AIRPLANE SALESMEN AMY MONEY! Get a pre-buy done too. bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: c g mchugh To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 10:23 PM When you folks bought your airplane(s) did you use any escrow services? How about title insurance? I read magazine articles and the occasional horror story of a aircraft that is later to found to have a maintenance lean on it. I see A.O.P.A. offers these services...anybody ever use them? What did you think of it?etc. Thanks CG P.S. I need Sir Barry's e-mail so I might ask him for a little history about a plane - can anybody help? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: Craig Lundborg <dltafolk(at)inreach.com>
Subject: Re:
Pie ChartsAPOA does a great job and don't purchase an aircraft without a clear title...I almost bought N60GS a beautiful 680 down in Florida located in one of the finest neighborhoods at a great price...no wonder , it has an obscure lien on it and the first time it is parked off of private property the bank intends to retrieve thier property! I had the tickets purchased and my pilot ready to pick it up when AOPA found what they did...The Jerk did keep $500 of my deposit besides but I felt good about getting anything back since he already knew about the past! Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: c g mchugh To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:23 PM When you folks bought your airplane(s) did you use any escrow services? How about title insurance? I read magazine articles and the occasional horror story of a aircraft that is later to found to have a maintenance lean on it. I see A.O.P.A. offers these services...anybody ever use them? What did you think of it?etc. Thanks CG P.S. I need Sir Barry's e-mail so I might ask him for a little history about a plane - can anybody help? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Re:
DO NOT BUY AN AIRCRAFT WITHOUT AN ESCROW SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: WEBSITE
HI NICO. It sounds like Chris has chosen you as the new webmaster. We should talk soon. Thanks for taking this responsibility on. I will participate all that I can with my limited computer knowledge. Thanks again Jim Metzger Director, Twin commander flight Group ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re:
Pie ChartsCG, I had GREAT results using AOPA's escrow & title insurance services. The staff was very friendly & helpful, and the transaction was very quick. I highly recommend them. /J ----- Original Message ----- From: c g mchugh To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:23 PM When you folks bought your airplane(s) did you use any escrow services? How about title insurance? I read magazine articles and the occasional horror story of a aircraft that is later to found to have a maintenance lean on it. I see A.O.P.A. offers these services...anybody ever use them? What did you think of it?etc. Thanks CG P.S. I need Sir Barry's e-mail so I might ask him for a little history about a plane - can anybody help? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net>
Subject: Re: Escrow Serv.
This is Barry collmans e-mail. barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk Buying an airplane is right up there next to buying a house. AOPA escrow service is well respected. The trust account insures that the money is not paid until all the paper is correct. You as the buyer is protected if there is something that would make the transaction go bad. They also offer things like 337s, AD issued, chain of title report, and FAA accident/incident report. 800-654-4700 Regards, Tylor Hall tylorh(at)sound.net 913-422-8869 913-485-3799 Cell -----Original Message----- From: c g mchugh [mailto:cmchugh(at)houston.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 9:23 PM To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Subject: When you folks bought your airplane(s) did you use any escrow services? How about title insurance? I read magazine articles and the occasional horror story of a aircraft that is later to found to have a maintenance lean on it. I see A.O.P.A. offers these services...anybody ever use them? What did you think of it?etc. Thanks CG P.S. I need Sir Barry's e-mail so I might ask him for a little history about a plane - can anybody help? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: Tylor Hall <thall5(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: IFR Check Ride
I passed my instrument flight check ride today!!!!! :-):-):-):-):-) Regards, Tylor Hall tylorh(at)sound.net 913-422-8869 913-485-3799 Cell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com>
Subject: Re: IFR Check Ride
Congratulations. Bruce Campbell ----- Original Message ----- From: Tylor Hall To: Commanderchat@C2-Tech. Com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 1:35 PM Subject: IFR Check Ride I passed my instrument flight check ride today!!!!! JJJJJ Regards, Tylor Hall tylorh(at)sound.net 913-422-8869 913-485-3799 Cell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: IFR Check Ride
In a message dated 7/10/02 1:31:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, thall5(at)kc.rr.com writes: > I passed my instrument flight check ride today!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!! It is the most gratifying check ride you will ever take. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: ALINGTON
HI KIDS. Anybody going to the Arlington airshow?? Yes, it is the Arlington that the factory is located at and Yes, I will be there. Let me know if you plan to attend..jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2002
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: IFR Check Ride
WOOHOO! Congratulations Tylor!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Tylor Hall To: Commanderchat@C2-Tech. Com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 1:35 PM Subject: IFR Check Ride I passed my instrument flight check ride today!!!!! JJJJJ Regards, Tylor Hall tylorh(at)sound.net 913-422-8869 913-485-3799 Cell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: IFR Check Ride
It's been more than 25 years since I took mine. I can still remember the designee's(Joe Dunaway) words "Bill, you can schedule the retake anytime". Before the tears could well up in my eyes I saw the grin on his face and realized he was joking. We were good friends. Congrats Tylor!!!!! bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Tylor Hall To: Commanderchat@C2-Tech. Com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: IFR Check Ride I passed my instrument flight check ride today!!!!! JJJJJ Regards, Tylor Hall tylorh(at)sound.net 913-422-8869 913-485-3799 Cell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 2002
From: TILLMAN333(at)aol.com <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
Subject: Stolen Aircraft Alert from ACPI
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 2002
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: IFR Check Ride
They love doing that. I was a designated flight test examiner in the past and I never dicked around with the candidate. Tom... ----- Original Message ----- From: Bow To: Tylor Hall ; Commanderchat@C2-Tech. Com Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 05:28 Subject: Re: IFR Check Ride It's been more than 25 years since I took mine. I can still remember the designee's(Joe Dunaway) words "Bill, you can schedule the retake anytime". Before the tears could well up in my eyes I saw the grin on his face and realized he was joking. We were good friends. Congrats Tylor!!!!! bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Tylor Hall To: Commanderchat@C2-Tech. Com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: IFR Check Ride I passed my instrument flight check ride today!!!!! JJJJJ Regards, Tylor Hall tylorh(at)sound.net 913-422-8869 913-485-3799 Cell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: IP Addresses
Dear June, The IP address of your computer is 66.24.128.79, which is the address you should use to connect to your computer with PCAnywhere. Verisign, who is your domain name's registrant which means they manage the record that forwards all calls to theheritagegroup.org to a particular name server, has erroneously reversed the changes that I made last month. I spoke to them as soon as I became aware of their mistake and they apologized and fixed it right away. It may be that you would not experience an interruption of your service because the error has been fixed so quickly, but one is never sure. If you want to verify that it is working properly, you may click on Start, Run, and then type Command and click OK. On the black screen, just type the following: ping theheritagegroup.org and press Enter. If it replies with Reply from 66.247.128.89 and some more information, four times, then we are still OK. BUT, if the ping responds with either Timed out or Reply yfrom 209.204.3.69, then your internet service has been interrupted by this error and we have to wait until it gets back on. To get out of the black screen, just type exit and press Enter. I apologize for this inconvenience, but it is not of my doing. Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 2002
From: Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com>
Subject: seat rails
I purchased 12 ft of the extrusion for 520 seat rails from twin commander. I only need 8 ft. anyone interested in the other 4? The seat rails on my plane appear to have been completely original. They are of the cessna type which can get worn, and when worn can make for an extremely exciting take off. I was luck in my case to have a copilot abord when the seat let go..... The material is $26 / ft, and 4 ft will be available. The cost of machining the material into seat rails is fairly reasonable. I would recommend getting them machined localy to match the ones on one's currnt plane. Bruce Campbell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: IFR Check Ride
O.K. Now remember.......no more fooolin around......You're up there with me now!! Congrats!!!!!!! That's the hardest one you will do!!!! JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: IFR Check Ride
In a message dated 7/11/2002 8:35:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, w.bow(at)att.net writes: > I can still remember the designee's(Joe Dunaway) words "Bill, you can > schedule the retake anytime". Actually Bill he was not kidding and U.P.S. wants to talk to you pronto!!! JUST KIDDING!!! JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: pesco pump
Does anyone have a source for a gasket for a Pesco Hydraulic pump? I need the one that goes between the two halves. I'm not looking for an overhaul. bilbo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 2002
From: Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
Subject: Has anyone seen?
I grew up hanging around New Orleans Lakefront Airport. I visited there 10 years ago and remember an old 520/560 which had seen better days. It was parked on the grass on the northeast side of the airport. Does anyone know about this airframe? Glenn Sneed ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 2002
From: Todd Hindmarsh <todd(at)inpnet.org>
Subject: Accumulator bladder
Hi, We are trying to locate a supplier for an accumulator bladder for a '58 680. Does anyone know where we might locate one? Thanks in advance, Todd N6229B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: COMMANDER SIGHTING
HI KIDS..... Some local pilot friends of mine just got back from a 9 day vacation in their pretty piper pacer. While in CA, they spotted N9U, Ted Schall's Shrike parked at Lake Almanor, CA. It has a for sale sign in it. Ted has already bought his next airplane, a newer Shrike. I will be gear up in triple 2 at 4pm local for SEA for a night on the boat and then to Arlington tomorrow. I am "test driving" some message board that some of you have shared and hope to have a solution by he end of next week, I'll keep you informed. The newsletters are late but will be in the mail next week, it will be a good one. Hope all is well in Commanderland...jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: situation update
Howdy all. Winding down a fairly productive week here. I have some (I think) good news. Been trying to get ahold of Jim, but I think said he was going to be out for the weekend. I have been able to secure usage of a T3 link at one of the major internet backbone sites. "so what? and why do I care?" you ask? This means that I will be able to physically carry two of the servers which host the aerocommander.com web site and the list servers to a new location, plug them in, redirect the domain addresses, and keep things moving. Jim is working on setting up a message board at this time which is still certainly a good excercise and possibly a future replacement for the "tech" list as it will allow easily archived discussions. I've been pretty adamant that the "chat" list at least should be maintained as an email distribution though. I fear that we'd loose a lot of the "realtime" interaction by moving that to a message board. (kinda like making a phone call rather than going to see if someone left a sticky note on your door). This takes some of the pressure off those who have been offering assistance. I have finalized the purchase of the two servers today and will probably be re-locating them before the end of the month. There may be a 24 hour disruption in service, but that should be the extent of it for now. I've traded a bunch of hardware for several months of bandwidth. (those who know what a T3 is know we're not talking chump change! Fortunately, there is a glut of unused bandwidth in the industry which allowed for some creative negotiating). As things stand at this time, I'm not really going to have any spare time to maintain the web site. I have basicly "donated" the site and the domain to the TCFG. I WILL be maintaining the list membership until such time as everyone decides they don't need it. I will also be providing Jim whatever resources he needs regarding the web site but will be counting on him and his designees to update content until such time as I am able to dedicate the time needed to handle it. I'm hoping that Jim et al will be able to make a number of enhancments and updates which have long been needed. On a personal note, Kim and I have decided to use the opportunity which has been presented to us (a nice way of saying we're both unemployeed) to make a new business beginning. All of the engineers who used to work for me have quietly informed me that they'll follow me if I create a new business. I'm optomistic that I'll be able to shake some work up and get back on my feet sometime soon. So, y'all keep that fact in mind. Should you need just about anything designed, fabricated, produced, etc, (and have money to pay for it :-) just give me a yell! I'm looking for work! Y'all have a good weekend. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Re: Americas Finest
You will all note he was a Marine.. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: added to list
Wow, yet another 680 driver on the list. Beginning to get quite a few of those accounted for. The old 680/680E is certainly one of the most fascinating Commanders. I personally think it's a shame that Lycoming dropped the geared 480 engine line. If they'd have kept working with that engine, by now it would probably be the standard (as opposed to the IO540/IO520) on most of the high perf light singles and twins. Chris Terry Merxbauer wrote: > > Thanks Chris, > I am the proud owner of a 680S s/n 255. This is my first twin so it is > going to be a real experience for me. I am currently cleaning it up and > getting an annual done and I am replacing the interior. I am missing a rear > seat bench and a RH Horizontal de-ice boot. If you point me in a good > direction for parts I would appreciate it. I'll also get on the chat lines > a see what happens there too. > > Terry Merxbauer > Quality Assurance > STW Composites, Inc. > One Creative Place > Montrose, CO 81401 > 970-252-3016 > Fax 970-252-1410 > tmerxbauer(at)stwcomposites.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Schuermann > [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com] > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 6:11 PM > To: Terry Merxbauer > Subject: Re: added to list > > Terry Merxbauer wrote: > > > > I would like to be added to both of the chat lists. > > Both addresses added to both lists. > Welcome aboard Terry! > Feel free to introduce yourself and your airplane interests > to the group. Great folks here - always willing to help > and share information. > > Chris Schuermann ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2002
From: Jerry <wjjzzs(at)wjjzzs.com>
Subject: bathtub
Dear sirs We are one Arcyl bathtub manufacturer in China. Profile Our factoryspecializes in manufacturing YEMA brand acrylic composite bathtubs, we have more than 10 years experience of bathtub manufacturing and marketing. With our considerable experience we set out to blend the advantages of all the other of bathtubs offered in the market place into one range. After several years development we produced our current range and the YEMA brand bathtub was patented in 2001. We were even awarded the "Gold Medal" in the "Chinese Patent Technology Exhibition" and "The Ninth Chinese New Patent Technology and New Patent Product Exhibition" later that year. The YEMA bathtubs structural design is that of a normal acrylic bathtub but conglutinated into a composite material. It is ridged and is made more than twice as thick as a normal unit, making it more smooth, gentle and elegant. This manufacturing technique not only provides all the advantages of a normal acrylic bathtub (easily to clean, resistance to dirt, colorful,attractive etc) but also provides increased heat retention, and extends the products life span. Specifications 1,Wall thickness:10mm~20mm 2,Weight: 50~60KG Cooperate We would like to be your OEM/ODM manufacturer. For detailed info, please browse our website http://www.wjjzzs.com Best wishes and regards, Export Manager Jerry Lee Mobile:13951228561 Phone:0086-519-5211973 Fax: 0086-519-5209776 Wujin Huangli Composited Sanitary Factory Add:HUangli town,Wujin county Changzhou 213151 Jiangsu province P.R.China Websie:http://www.wjjzzs.com Email:wjjzzs(at)wjjzzs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2002
From: RnJThompson(at)aol.com <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Accumulator bladder
Hi Todd, I have recently overhauled the entire hydraulic system in my 680E. Forget about finding a new bladder, the last new one I heard of had a cure date of 1967. I replaced mine with a two piece Vickers one. (P47 had the same one) The Diapragms are easily availiable. The only change to the mounting is moving the long bolts out about1/4 inch.I worked on the principle that the local CASA boys would not be able to tell the difference. If you need any part numbers etc, just ask. Regards, Richard ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2002
From: Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com>
Subject: Oshkosh
I am heading out to Oshkosh, just not sure how I am getting there. I might be taking my Cessna 140 from Houston, TX up, but if anybody happens to be heading along that route in a real plane(commander) I might be interested in catching a ride. See you there- chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2002
From: Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net>
Subject: Re: bathtub
Hrm, acrylic Nacells for the Bathtub commanders. Do we install Meon, Delta, or another type of fixture? STC'd? Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry" <wjjzzs(at)wjjzzs.com> To: Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 1:39 PM Subject: bathtub > Dear sirs > We are one Arcyl bathtub manufacturer in China. > > Profile > > Our factoryspecializes in manufacturing YEMA brand acrylic composite bathtubs, > we have more than 10 years experience of bathtub manufacturing and marketing. > With our considerable experience we set out to blend the advantages of all the other > of bathtubs offered in the market place into one range. After several years development > we produced our current range and the YEMA brand bathtub was patented in 2001. We were > even awarded the "Gold Medal" in the "Chinese Patent Technology Exhibition" and > "The Ninth Chinese New Patent Technology and New Patent Product Exhibition" later that year. > The YEMA bathtubs structural design is that of a normal acrylic bathtub but conglutinated > into a composite material. It is ridged and is made more than twice as thick as a normal > unit, making it more smooth, gentle and elegant. This manufacturing technique not only > provides all the advantages of a normal acrylic bathtub (easily to clean, resistance to > dirt, colorful,attractive etc) but also provides increased heat retention, and extends > the products life span. > > Specifications > 1,Wall thickness:10mm~20mm > 2,Weight: 50~60KG > > Cooperate > > We would like to be your OEM/ODM manufacturer. > > For detailed info, please browse our website http://www.wjjzzs.com > > Best wishes and regards, > > Export Manager > Jerry Lee > Mobile:13951228561 > Phone:0086-519-5211973 > Fax: 0086-519-5209776 > Wujin Huangli Composited Sanitary Factory > Add:HUangli town,Wujin county > Changzhou 213151 > Jiangsu province > P.R.China > Websie:http://www.wjjzzs.com > Email:wjjzzs(at)wjjzzs.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2002
From: Craig Lundborg <dltafolk(at)inreach.com>
Subject: PASS THIS ON... and on... and on!!!!!!
----- Original Message ----- From: "S.Zimmerman" <skzlaw(at)pacbell.net> To: "Zimmerman, M. D." ; "Zimmerman, George H." ; "Zimmerman, Evan" ; "Zimmerman, Allesandra Mariani" ; "Williams, Leah" ; "Williams, Elizabeth" ; "Weise (wk), Marty" ; "Weise (hm), Marty" ; "T, Robin" ; "Stephens, Rand" ; "Staker, Bob" ; "Snyder, Aaron&Charlotte" ; "Simmons, Mikie" ; "Schwartz, Seth" ; "Savino, Ann" ; "Sanders, Tristen" ; "Riley, Stephanie" ; "Reid, Larry" ; "Petrovich, Pete" ; "Ordonez, Alicia" ; "Netka, Peter" ; "Mould, Chuck" ; "Maccario, Kathleen" ; "Lundberg, Craig" ; "Lenoci, Nanci" ; "Lenoci, Nanci" ; "Lenoci, David" ; "Leers, Ed" ; "Leenaarts, Mugs" ; "Leenaarts, Jack" ; "Leenaarts, Gretchen" ; "EPZ - "The Mom"" ; "Earl, Big" ; "Ducroux, Rene&Nancy" ; "Diaz, Estela" ; "Delay, Ray" ; "DeBene, L" ; "Daubin-Parks, Michele" ; "Daubin, Jennifer" ; "Daubin, Brian-Wk" ; "Daly, Pamela Sue" ; "Curtis, Fran" ; "Contreras, Manny" ; "Colbert, Louise" ; "Cline, Ms." ; "Cleary, Kathleen" ; "Carrigan (Rios), Chris" ; "Callahan, Deidre" ; "Brennan, Todd/Shannon" ; "Bibeau, Katherine" ; "Adamson RN, Cindy" Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 4:54 PM Subject: Fw: FW: PASS THIS ON... and on... and on!!!!!! > THIS SPEACH SAYS IT ALL, PRETTY MUCH > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2002
From: Victor C. Rupert <V-Man(at)airmail.net>
Subject: Re: bathtub
Hmmmm..... Water Jet propulsion??? Who needs cloud seeding... Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Woodley" <woodlema(at)intrex.net> To: "Jerry" ; Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 1:33 AM Subject: Re: bathtub > Hrm, acrylic Nacells for the Bathtub commanders. Do we install Meon, Delta, > or another type of fixture? > > STC'd? > > Mark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry" <wjjzzs(at)wjjzzs.com> > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 1:39 PM > Subject: bathtub > > > > Dear sirs > > We are one Arcyl bathtub manufacturer in China. > > > > Profile > > > > Our factoryspecializes in manufacturing YEMA brand acrylic composite > bathtubs, > > we have more than 10 years experience of bathtub manufacturing and > marketing. > > With our considerable experience we set out to blend the advantages of all > the other > > of bathtubs offered in the market place into one range. After several > years development > > we produced our current range and the YEMA brand bathtub was patented in > 2001. We were > > even awarded the "Gold Medal" in the "Chinese Patent Technology > Exhibition" and > > "The Ninth Chinese New Patent Technology and New Patent Product > Exhibition" later that year. > > The YEMA bathtubs structural design is that of a normal acrylic bathtub > but conglutinated > > into a composite material. It is ridged and is made more than twice as > thick as a normal > > unit, making it more smooth, gentle and elegant. This manufacturing > technique not only > > provides all the advantages of a normal acrylic bathtub (easily to clean, > resistance to > > dirt, colorful,attractive etc) but also provides increased heat retention, > and extends > > the products life span. > > > > Specifications > > 1,Wall thickness:10mm~20mm > > 2,Weight: 50~60KG > > > > Cooperate > > > > We would like to be your OEM/ODM manufacturer. > > > > For detailed info, please browse our website http://www.wjjzzs.com > > > > Best wishes and regards, > > > > Export Manager > > Jerry Lee > > Mobile:13951228561 > > Phone:0086-519-5211973 > > Fax: 0086-519-5209776 > > Wujin Huangli Composited Sanitary Factory > > Add:HUangli town,Wujin county > > Changzhou 213151 > > Jiangsu province > > P.R.China > > Websie:http://www.wjjzzs.com > > Email:wjjzzs(at)wjjzzs.com > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: fuel cells
In a message dated 7/12/02 8:24:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, COMMANDER560(at)cs.com writes: > Phil, I 'm pretty sure I have a spinner for the 560F, I have one also,N423M > a 1964 560F. I'm in school in Msp for a couple of weeks, email me if your > interested in the spinner, I don't know what they are going for, so if you > can find out I'll let it go for a fair price. Joe Shepherd ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2002
From: clr2(at)igc.apc.org <clr2(at)igc.apc.org>
Subject: bathtub
Dear sirs We are one Arcyl bathtub manufacturer in China. Profile Our factoryspecializes in manufacturing YEMA brand acrylic composite bathtubs, we have more than 10 years experience of bathtub manufacturing and marketing. With our considerable experience we set out to blend the advantages of all the other of bathtubs offered in the market place into one range. After several years development we produced our current range and the YEMA brand bathtub was patented in 2001. We were even awarded the "Gold Medal" in the "Chinese Patent Technology Exhibition" and "The Ninth Chinese New Patent Technology and New Patent Product Exhibition" later that year. The YEMA bathtubs structural design is that of a normal acrylic bathtub but conglutinated into a composite material. It is ridged and is made more than twice as thick as a normal unit, making it more smooth, gentle and elegant. This manufacturing technique not only provides all the advantages of a normal acrylic bathtub (easily to clean, resistance to dirt, colorful,attractive etc) but also provides increased heat retention, and extends the products life span. Specifications 1,Wall thickness:10mm~20mm 2,Weight: 50~60KG Cooperate We would like to be your OEM/ODM manufacturer. For detailed info, please browse our website http://www.wjjzzs.com Best wishes and regards, Export Manager Jerry Lee Mobile:13951228561 Phone:0086-519-5211973 Fax: 0086-519-5209776 Wujin Huangli Composited Sanitary Factory Add:HUangli town,Wujin county Changzhou 213151 Jiangsu province P.R.China Websie:http://www.wjjzzs.com Email:wjjzzs(at)wjjzzs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: bathtub
GO GET EM MILT!!!!!!!!!!! bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: <clr2(at)igc.apc.org> To: Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 11:36 PM Subject: bathtub > Dear sirs > We are one Arcyl bathtub manufacturer in China. > > Profile > > Our factoryspecializes in manufacturing YEMA brand acrylic composite bathtubs, > we have more than 10 years experience of bathtub manufacturing and marketing. > With our considerable experience we set out to blend the advantages of all the other > of bathtubs offered in the market place into one range. After several years development > we produced our current range and the YEMA brand bathtub was patented in 2001. We were > even awarded the "Gold Medal" in the "Chinese Patent Technology Exhibition" and > "The Ninth Chinese New Patent Technology and New Patent Product Exhibition" later that year. > The YEMA bathtubs structural design is that of a normal acrylic bathtub but conglutinated > into a composite material. It is ridged and is made more than twice as thick as a normal > unit, making it more smooth, gentle and elegant. This manufacturing technique not only > provides all the advantages of a normal acrylic bathtub (easily to clean, resistance to > dirt, colorful,attractive etc) but also provides increased heat retention, and extends > the products life span. > > Specifications > 1,Wall thickness:10mm~20mm > 2,Weight: 50~60KG > > Cooperate > > We would like to be your OEM/ODM manufacturer. > > For detailed info, please browse our website http://www.wjjzzs.com > > Best wishes and regards, > > Export Manager > Jerry Lee > Mobile:13951228561 > Phone:0086-519-5211973 > Fax: 0086-519-5209776 > Wujin Huangli Composited Sanitary Factory > Add:HUangli town,Wujin county > Changzhou 213151 > Jiangsu province > P.R.China > Websie:http://www.wjjzzs.com > Email:wjjzzs(at)wjjzzs.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: bathtub
Nico van Niekerk wrote: > > These guys must've searched the internet for 'bathtubs' and found us talking > about the older ships on our list. > How could they have known. > Nico Good guess I'd bet. Probably using a bot to scan web sites. Ah well, I knew it would happen eventually. Yet another good arguement for setting up a new board (although it too will eventually fall prey to the spammers) Not to be overly cynical, but does anyone else find it odd that China appears to hate the US, yet is trying to export most of their GNP to us??? Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: mrp37(at)mindspring.com <mrp37(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: IFR Checkride
Congrats Tylor! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Big Bird
>From: Ray Bates <buzzard2(at)charter.net> >To: Allen_Reed2(at)hotmail.com >Subject: Fwd: Fw: Big Bird >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:58:26 -0500 > > >>From: "Betty Parker" <ebparker(at)ky1.powerflite.net> >>To: "Walter A Chisholm" >>Cc: "Ray Bates" >>Subject: Fw: Big Bird >>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:02:39 -0500 >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2526.0000 >>X-SLUIDL: 18C7965C-340644A1-9C545717-A73AFE8A >> >>This bird is actually flying in Afganistan Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Crash
In a message dated 7/15/02 7:38:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: > Anybody know these guys? JB, aren't they from your neck of the woods? > Nico > > Yep, from here but didnt know anybody. (Im not that old!!) jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: Tylor Hall <thall5(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: Another Virus on the Chat list.
Here comes another virus. My Norton picked it up. IE 6 patch. Delete it. Regards, Tylor Hall tylorh(at)sound.net 913-422-8869 913-485-3799 Cell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Re: bathtub
I am glad somebody has recognized my unique talents. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Re: Crash
Ever notice how Nico is the first to find all the crashes. I have a partner who reads the obituaries. But he is weird. Milt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: OUR FLAG
Now Milt, this is equal in ALL services, so no Marine's spin! OUR FLAG Why the American Flag Is Folded 13 Times.... Anyone ever hear this before? You probably thought it was to symbolize the original 13 colonies. Why the Flag is folded 13 times... Have you ever noticed on TV or at military funerals, the honor guard pays meticulous attention to correctly folding the American flag 13 times? It's known how the 21 gun salute was determined (adding the individual digits of 1776), but only recently learned why the flag was folded 13 times when it is lowered or when it is folded and handed to the widow at the burial of a veteran. Here it is: The first fold of our flag is a symbol of life. The second fold is a symbol of our belief in eternal life. The third fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing our ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of our country to attain peace throughout the world. The fourth fold represents our weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance. The fifth fold is a tribute to our country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our Country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong. The sixth fold is for where our hearts lie. It is with our heart that We pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States Of America, and the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all. The seventh fold is a tribute to our Armed Forces, for it is through The Armed Forces that we protect our country and our flag against all her enemies, whether they are found within or without the boundaries of our republic. The eighth fold is a tribute to the one who e ntered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day, and to honor mother for whom it flies on Mother's Day. The ninth fold is a tribute to womanhood; for it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded. The tenth fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of our country since they were first born. The eleventh fold represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in the Hebrews' eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The twelfth fold represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in the Christians' eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. When the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding us of our nation's motto, "In God We Trust." After the flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for us the rights, privileges and freedoms we enjoy today. There are some traditions and ways of doing things that have deep meaning. In the future, you'll see flags folded and now you will know why. Attributed to the Chaplain of the USS ENTERPRISE --- Lowell Girod --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net --- Twin Commander 560 E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Crash
Nico, Armchair Quarterbacking is SO easy to do. The incident below ended the life of Tom Blaesing, a close friend to ALL of us in the Commander world. Many of the people who read this list probably know him personally, as I did. It also took the life of his chief pilot and wife (I believe), and a close friend and his wife. Keep in mind that the chief pilot and Tom combined had a total of about 22,000 hours solely in Aero Commanders. This was a flight they had done many times before in very similar conditions. The wreckage was found to be pancaked but intact, suggesting a VERY strong mountain downdraft. They were VFR at the time, albeit scud-running. Finally, this aircraft was full of volunteers. Tom himself, owner of Commander Northwest, elected to fly on the piston instead of on the 690 that he sent ahead, with people who were unaccustomed to flying in small airplanes. He & the chief pilot knew the risks they might be taking and fully believed in their combined abilities to overcome. They would have if not for the freak wave. Granted, that is terrain that should be traversed at 31,000 feet, not 14,000, and definitely IFR. No matter how you slice it, it is still a great tragedy and has cost us yet another of the (very) few knowledgeable Aero Commander people. Think twice before pointing the finger and saying "what an idiot." It could be you next time. Or me. Or another one of our friends on this list. Anyone here with a pilot's license has done something, at one time or another, in the course of learning the sky, that could have gotten them killed. All of us have said "Never Again!" Tom is survived by his wife. I wonder if she reads the list? /John ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Crash Don't let me disappoint you, guys. I mean there is an expectation to live up to here. But isn't the accident below an example of a Darwinian weeding exercise? Pity the poor guys in the back who had to go with them. Sorry if you are already familiar with this. On November 21, 2001, at 1126 hours Pacific standard time, an Aero Commander 500S, N900RA, collided with mountainous terrain on Eagle Peak near Eagleville, California. Commander Northwest Limited was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The airline transport certificated pilot-in-command, commercial certificated copilot, and three passengers sustained fatal injuries; the airplane was destroyed. The personal cross-country flight departed Reno, Nevada, about 1045, en route to Wenatchee, Washington. While visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the closest aviation weather reporting station, the weather conditions at the accident site are unknown. An IFR flight plan had been filed. According to preliminary information supplied by Oakland Air Route Traffic Control Center, the pilot requested 12,500 feet msl as a cruise altitude. The sector controller informed the pilot that he was unable to clear the flight to that altitude because the Minimum En route Altitude (MEA) for the route segment was 14,000 feet. The pilot then cancelled his instrument flight plan and stated that he was VFR on top at 10,500 feet. Shortly after that at 1126, the controller lost radio and radar contact. When no further contact was made with the flight, Oakland Center issued an alert notice at 1230. The last Mode C radar secondary beacon target occurred at 41 degrees 17 minutes 09 seconds north latitude by 120 degrees 11 minutes 41 seconds west longitude. This position was determined to be about 1/2-mile east of Eagle Peak (elevation 9,920 feet). Search and Rescue personnel discovered the wreckage near the crest of Eagle Peak on November 23. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Crash
Nico; What you say is also true, not to find fault, but, we either learn from our own mistakes and others, or we run the risk of paying a serious price. I too, have done some "dumb things" but hopefully I have learned. Mistakes make us all better pilots if we survive, and LEARN. Its when we don't learn, once again, not saying they didn't, BUT, if "they had done this many times" makes me wonder. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;John Vormbaum Sent: 7/15/02 9:56:06 PM Subject: Re: Crash Yup. I was insensitive and what you said has a bearing on me too. Fortunately I didn't resort to the 'idiot' game, but what I said might be construed incorrectly. Sorry if I inadvertently chaffed some old wounds. Wasn't my intention. Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2002
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Crash
Nico, Sorry myself....I didn't mean to imply that you were callously laughing at the unfortunates. It just struck a nerve because it's someone I knew. Cheers & thanks for the kind words, /J ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: John Vormbaum ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Crash Yup. I was insensitive and what you said has a bearing on me too. Fortunately I didn't resort to the 'idiot' game, but what I said might be construed incorrectly. Sorry if I inadvertently chaffed some old wounds. Wasn't my intention. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: Nico van Niekerk ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Crash Nico, Armchair Quarterbacking is SO easy to do. The incident below ended the life of Tom Blaesing, a close friend to ALL of us in the Commander world. Many of the people who read this list probably know him personally, as I did. It also took the life of his chief pilot and wife (I believe), and a close friend and his wife. Keep in mind that the chief pilot and Tom combined had a total of about 22,000 hours solely in Aero Commanders. This was a flight they had done many times before in very similar conditions. The wreckage was found to be pancaked but intact, suggesting a VERY strong mountain downdraft. They were VFR at the time, albeit scud-running. Finally, this aircraft was full of volunteers. Tom himself, owner of Commander Northwest, elected to fly on the piston instead of on the 690 that he sent ahead, with people who were unaccustomed to flying in small airplanes. He & the chief pilot knew the risks they might be taking and fully believed in their combined abilities to overcome. They would have if not for the freak wave. Granted, that is terrain that should be traversed at 31,000 feet, not 14,000, and definitely IFR. No matter how you slice it, it is still a great tragedy and has cost us yet another of the (very) few knowledgeable Aero Commander people. Think twice before pointing the finger and saying "what an idiot." It could be you next time. Or me. Or another one of our friends on this list. Anyone here with a pilot's license has done something, at one time or another, in the course of learning the sky, that could have gotten them killed. All of us have said "Never Again!" Tom is survived by his wife. I wonder if she reads the list? /John ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Crash Don't let me disappoint you, guys. I mean there is an expectation to live up to here. But isn't the accident below an example of a Darwinian weeding exercise? Pity the poor guys in the back who had to go with them. Sorry if you are already familiar with this. On November 21, 2001, at 1126 hours Pacific standard time, an Aero Commander 500S, N900RA, collided with mountainous terrain on Eagle Peak near Eagleville, California. Commander Northwest Limited was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The airline transport certificated pilot-in-command, commercial certificated copilot, and three passengers sustained fatal injuries; the airplane was destroyed. The personal cross-country flight departed Reno, Nevada, about 1045, en route to Wenatchee, Washington. While visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the closest aviation weather reporting station, the weather conditions at the accident site are unknown. An IFR flight plan had been filed. According to preliminary information supplied by Oakland Air Route Traffic Control Center, the pilot requested 12,500 feet msl as a cruise altitude. The sector controller informed the pilot that he was unable to clear the flight to that altitude because the Minimum En route Altitude (MEA) for the route segment was 14,000 feet. The pilot then cancelled his instrument flight plan and stated that he was VFR on top at 10,500 feet. Shortly after that at 1126, the controller lost radio and radar contact. When no further contact was made with the flight, Oakland Center issued an alert notice at 1230. The last Mode C radar secondary beacon target occurred at 41 degrees 17 minutes 09 seconds north latitude by 120 degrees 11 minutes 41 seconds west longitude. This position was determined to be about 1/2-mile east of Eagle Peak (elevation 9,920 feet). Search and Rescue personnel discovered the wreckage near the crest of Eagle Peak on November 23. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Fw:
----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 6:45 AM You live in California when . . . > 1.You make over $250,000 and you still can't afford to buy a house. > 2.The high school quarterback calls a time-out to answer his cell phone= . > 3.The fastest part of your commute is going down your driveway. > 4.You know how to eat an artichoke. > 5.You drive to your neighborhood block party. > 6.When someone asks you how far something is, you tell them how long it > will take to get there rather than how many miles away it is. > > You live in New York when . . . > 1.You say "the city" and expect everyone to know you mean Manhattan. > 2.You have never been to the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State > Building. > 3.You can get into a four-hour argument about how to get from Columbus > Circle to Battery Park, but can't find Wisconsin on a map. > 4.You think Central Park is "nature." > 5.You believe that being able to swear at people in their own language > makes you multilingual. > 6.You've worn out a car horn. > 7.You think eye contact is an act of aggression. > > You live in Alaska when . . . > 1.You only have four spices: salt, pepper, ketchup and Tabasco. > 2.Halloween costumes fit over parkas. > 3.You have more than one recipe for moose. > 4.Sexy lingerie is anything flannel with less than eight buttons. > 5.The four seasons are: winter, still winter, almost winter, and > construction. > > You live in the Deep South when . . . > 1.You get a movie and bait in the same store. > 2."ya'll" is singular and "all ya'll" is plural. > 3.After five years you still hear, "You ain't from 'round here, are ya?= " > 4."He needed killin' " is a valid defense. > 5.Everyone has 2 first names: Billy Bob, Jimmy Bob, Mary Sue, Betty > Jean,etc. > > You live in Colorado when . . . > 1.You carry your $3,000 mountain bike atop your $500 car. > 2.You tell your husband to pick up Granola on his way home and he stops= at > the day care center. > 3.A pass does not involve a football or dating. > 4.The top of your head is bald, but you still have a pony tail. > > You live in the Midwest when . . . > 1.You've never met any celebrities, but the mayor knows your name. > 2.Your idea of a traffic jam is ten cars waiting to pass a tractor. > 3.You have had to switch from "heat" to "A/C" on the same day. > 4.You end sentences with a preposition: "Where's my coat at?" > 5.When asked how your trip was to any exotic place, you say, "It was di= ffe > rent!" > > You live in Florida when... > 1.You eat dinner at 3:15 in the afternoon. > 2. All purchases include a coupon of some kind-even houses and cars. > 3. Everyone can recommend an excellent dermatologist. > 4. Road construction never ends anywhere in the state. > 5. Cars in front of you are often driven by headless people. > 6. There are only GIANT doctors in Florida (Every person's doctor is "T= he > Biggest" in his field) -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: bathtub
That would be "Semi-Hate" bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 8:32 AM Subject: Re: bathtub > Nico van Niekerk wrote: > > > > These guys must've searched the internet for 'bathtubs' and found us talking > > about the older ships on our list. > > How could they have known. > > Nico > > > Good guess I'd bet. Probably using a bot to scan web sites. > Ah well, I knew it would happen eventually. Yet another good > arguement for setting up a new board (although it too will > eventually fall prey to the spammers) > Not to be overly cynical, but does anyone else find it odd > that China appears to hate the US, yet is trying to export > most of their GNP to us??? > > Chris > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Propeller Question
I have a question: A number of Commanders have the Hartzell HC-B3Z30-2B props., including the Models 680F; 680F(P); 680FL and 680FLP. The Model 560F also has the same propeller, but for this Model the props are described as: HC-B3Z30-2B(15 degrees) Can anyone tell me the reason for this? Is it due to the different pitch setting at the 30 inch station (15 degrees), whereas for the other Models it is 18 degrees? Thanks! Best Regards to All, Barry Collman ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Fly-In, West Columbia
Hi Guys! Well, I'm on the 'scrounge'. Buddy Windham is flying me down to the West Columbia Fly-In from Grand Rapids in his beautiful 560E on the Friday. After the Fly-In I plan on spending a week in Oklahoma City, tidying up a few more histories. So, if anybody is going back home that way (or near enough to pick up a rental car and drive from wherever), I'd be REALLY grateful for a (fare-paying) ride! Otherwise, when I'm booking my flight into Chicago, I'll also book from West Columbia to OKC. In anticipation - THANKS! Really looking forward to meeting both old and new faces!! Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: To quote Jimbob
YIPPPPEEEEEEE!!!!!!! Spent the last 2 months replacing 2 jugs,oilpan,oilcooler, and part of the intercooler all as a result of a 6 year oil leak. All gaskets and seals were replaced and every nut bolt and screw were torqued and the engine/prop put back on the plane. Cruised for an hour today and for the first time in years not a drop of oil anywhere. Tomorrow I'll take her to altitude and calibrate the gauges and re rig the controls. Thursday AM it's off to Chicagoland for my BFR/ICC and 3 days in the simulator doing what I hope never to do in a real airplane. Gosh it is nice to no longer be earthbound and even nicer to no longer need an oil spill plan to fly my plane. The EPA is gonna miss me. So as JB says: YIPPPPEEEEEEE!!!!!!! Milt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 18, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: NEW MEMBERS
Welcome Sergio!! bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: NEW MEMBERS HI KIDS.. Please welcome a couple of new TCFG Members. Todd Hindmarsh just bought a 680. Todd lives in Provo, UT and has been flying it a lot lately practicing instrument approaches etc. His airplane had winglets and sounds like a nice airplane. Next is Sergio Molina from San Juan PR. Sergio owns a very stock 500 with only 4000 TT! He is a professional pilot and I hope he invites me down to stay with him this winter (Feb works good for me!) Welcome Gentlemen!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 18, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: NEW MEMBERS
Welcome Todd!! bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: NEW MEMBERS HI KIDS.. Please welcome a couple of new TCFG Members. Todd Hindmarsh just bought a 680. Todd lives in Provo, UT and has been flying it a lot lately practicing instrument approaches etc. His airplane had winglets and sounds like a nice airplane. Next is Sergio Molina from San Juan PR. Sergio owns a very stock 500 with only 4000 TT! He is a professional pilot and I hope he invites me down to stay with him this winter (Feb works good for me!) Welcome Gentlemen!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Morris
In a message dated 7/19/02 7:02:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes: > Been on the phone for the last half-hour with Morris. > He's frustrated at everything that has gone on, but is in > good spirits and is optomistic that somehow things will > work out. He said that he IS going to be at the flyin > and that he's continuing to do business. He's made > arrangements to get a lot of his stuff (tools and inventory) > back, but must come up with a pretty good pile of money > to make it happen....and has a short time to pull things > together. I, for one, am mailing a check to him in the > morning. Due to my current situation, it isn't going to > be a huge check, but Kim and I are certainly going to do > what we can for Morris. I'd sure encourage everyone to > do the same if at all possible. Just think that it takes > several hundred dollars just to fill a Commander with gas. > If we each send Morris a couple of "tank fulls", he'll be > able to recover his substantial inventory and tools and > will be able to continue to support us! > > If anyone would like his mail address, feel free to > email me. I know the need is true and urgent and that > Morris intends to repay any "help" he receives... I am mailing my check in the AM as well. Like Chris, The timing for me stinks (just wrote a bunch of checks for the STC) But I will send him about 3 tanks of gas. Hope you guys will do the same. This is where the rubber meets the road ladies and Gentlemen. Morris needs our help NOW!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: OLD MEMBER, NEW COMMANDER
HI KIDS....... One of our "special" non-owner TCFG members just converted to an owner!! Johan Beck has been a TCFG member for a couple of years and just made his dream of owning a Commander come true with the purchase of a 500B, N444Carlie Brown. It only has (sit down) 2200 hr TT!! He is like on cloud 9 and I am really happy for him. Congratulations Johan!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2002
From: Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net>
Subject: Re: Morris
Where does Morris live? Perhaps we can get us a CONVOY of commanders to all haul stuff for him too. My seats come out easy, and I can haul literally close to 900lbs of stuff with just me and full fuel. 900 lbs is a LOT of tools, and parts. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Dettmer" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> To: Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 11:04 AM Subject: Morris > I have been especially grateful to Morris for his help and efforts to assist > me into my first Commander 3 years ago. He has been around, it seems, at > all times of the day or weekend to help out when I have had a question or > issue to deal with...and has worked tirelessly to provide quality service > and 3 annual inspections on my Commander. I think it his infectious > "passion" about these wonderful airplanes that impresses me the most. > > I too, am sending Morris a check this morning. I know his continued work > will benefit us all. > > Randy Dettmer > 680F/N6253X > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Morris
In a message dated 7/20/02 8:16:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes: > I too, am sending Morris a check this morning. I know his continued work > will benefit us all. > Thanks Randy.......jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Morris
> Lowell Girod wrote: > > Chris; > How about either sending me Morris's address or put it out on the > chat list. > Thanks, Don Have had several requests: Here is Morris' mailing address for anyone who'd like to drop him a note or some assistance: Morris Kernick 561 Bowden Way Apt 3A Okland CA, 94610 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Morris
In a message dated 7/20/02 8:46:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, woodlema(at)intrex.net writes: > Where does Morris live? Perhaps we can get us a CONVOY of commanders to all Thanks Mark. What Morris needs now is $$. Please send some if you can. Hi address is Morris Kernick, 561 Boden Way #3, Oakland CA 91362. Send the $$ you would have burned in fuel fling there and thanks!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: MORRIS/CREDIDT CARDS
HI KIDS..... It occurred to me that we are a credit card driven society. I used to take credit cards in my business (the one I had before the FAA got hold of me). If some of you wish to help Morris using a credit card, I can take the information, charge your credit card and write him a check. YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT I AM ONLY ACTING AS A MIDDLE MAN HERE AND THE TRANSACTION IS BETWEEN YOU AND MORRIS. Contact me at 360-835-1090 and we can work out the details. Jim Metzger Director, Twin commander flight Group ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OLD MEMBER, NEW COMMANDER
Hi All! I saw N444CB at Kansas City in October 2000. Really nice-looking Commander, which I presume has been 'looked after' by John Towner's boys, as it was outside their maintenance facility. Johan, if you email me, I'll send you a copy of the aircraft's history. But, I have one question first. When was the 'Miller' nose installed. I have no record of this! Very Best Regards, Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 7:05 AM Subject: OLD MEMBER, NEW COMMANDER HI KIDS....... One of our "special" non-owner TCFG members just converted to an owner!! Johan Beck has been a TCFG member for a couple of years and just made his dream of owning a Commander come true with the purchase of a 500B, N444Carlie Brown. It only has (sit down) 2200 hr TT!! He is like on cloud 9 and I am really happy for him. Congratulations Johan!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: And for my next trick!
For those who don't think Morris works magic, take a look at the following picture.... Yes, it's what it looks like... This poor FL hadn't seen airtime in over a decade and Yoda was trying to get it from Okla to NY with not much more than stone knives and bearskins for a desparate new owner... http://www.c2-tech.com/~chris/pix2/img680~1.jpg Shortly before this picture was taken, I watched Morris field strip and overhaul a Simmonds injection system out of the back of his car!!!! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: NICE FLIGHT
HI KIDS. Had a nice flight in triple 2 today. A bunch of guys (And gals) from the airport went to the ocean for lunch. Flew to Pacific City, 1875 feet long smack in the middle of town. Had a great lunch at the "Grateful Bread" restaurant one of those in attendance is the president of the Navion club. After lunch he in his Navion and we in the 680E flew north up the Oregon coast to Astoria and then followed the Columbia back home. perfect weather, great friends, wonderful scenery and a fast airplane...Life is gooooooooooooood!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Just call me 414C Heavy
Landing at Champaign Illinois last Thursday I heard the following on tower frequency just as I touched down. " Cherokee 1234X you are cleared to land 32 Left following the twin commander, Caution wake turbulence" Milt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Just call me 414C Heavy
In a message dated 7/21/02 6:14:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, N414C(at)cableone.net writes: > " Cherokee 1234X you are cleared to land 32 Left following the twin > commander, Caution wake turbulence" > > HEEEEE HAAAAA, Aint life grand in a "Grand Commander"?? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: FLIGHT LEVELS
HI KIDS.. Just got my latest "Flight Levels" Magazine from TCAC. Another great job!! The Flight Group News will be in Monday's mail. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2002
From: Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Just call me 414C Heavy
Hey Milt, You don't suppose that tower operator could be aware of your diet, do you? :) :) rodd ----- Original Message ----- From: N414C To: Commander BSChat Chat Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 8:48 PM Subject: Just call me 414C Heavy Landing at Champaign Illinois last Thursday I heard the following on tower frequency just as I touched down. " Cherokee 1234X you are cleared to land 32 Left following the twin commander, Caution wake turbulence" Milt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: You Worry Me. (And they worry me to!! JetPaul)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Lycoming Engines
In a message dated 7/22/02 5:37:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: > Hi Guys! > > The Model 560E and HC560A started life with GO-480-C1B6 engines. > > Later on in production, these were up-graded to 'G1B6. > > What is the difference in the two engine models? > > Thanks! > I dont know, but I will find out. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: MORRIS
HI KIDS... Well, Morris and his attorney have agreed to conclude there war if Morris pays him $15K. They had scheduled a meeting for today, but Morris had not rased the $$. Thanks to all of you who responded to his need. He still needs about 12K and he needs it quick!! If you committed to help, but havent sent a check yet, today is the day. If you have been sitting on the fence, today ids the day. If you know anyone who needs a Lycoming IO-360 AiA, 200 HP, zero since recent OH, with Logs, $10K (its a deal!!) today is the day. Thanks jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2002
From: Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Prop AD
Commanderland; I may have been out of town and missed any comments on the chat list. But a friend just called and asked me about the Hartzell AD that was in the July AOPA and if it applied to my Commander. I have not heard anything from the FAA, so does anyone know? Does it apply to the 560E? Thanks. Don --- Lowell Girod --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net --- Twin Commander 560 E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2002
From: Harry Merritt <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: MORRIS
wiring Instruction for Morris. Morris Still Need Help!!!! He Needs about $8,000.00 Bank Of America 24700 Hesperian Blvd. Haywood, Ca. 94541 ABA 121 000 358 Account Of Commander Services 08618-10664 He Has A IO-360 Engine 0-MOH, With Fuel injection, Exhaust, Mags. Also A Pair of IGSO-540 BiA6 with logs, Tomorrow will be the last chance to save all the commander parts!!!!!!!!!!!! Please Help!! Crazy Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:10 PM Subject: MORRIS HI KIDS... Well, Morris and his attorney have agreed to conclude there war if Morris pays him $15K. They had scheduled a meeting for today, but Morris had not rased the $$. Thanks to all of you who responded to his need. He still needs about 12K and he needs it quick!! If you committed to help, but havent sent a check yet, today is the day. If you have been sitting on the fence, today ids the day. If you know anyone who needs a Lycoming IO-360 AiA, 200 HP, zero since recent OH, with Logs, $10K (its a deal!!) today is the day. Thanks jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: MORRIS
My bank will not wire under $10K. If I had it I would wire it, but I can't quite go that high. Will sending a check tomorrow be good or not?!!? Let me know tonight! Barry On Tuesday, July 23, 2002, at 04:01 PM, Harry Merritt wrote: > wiring Instruction for Morris. > Morris Still Need Help!!!! He Needs about $8,000.00 > Bank Of America > 24700 Hesperian Blvd. > Haywood, Ca. 94541 > ABA 121 000 358 > Account Of > Commander Services > 08618-10664 > He Has A IO-360 Engine 0-MOH, With Fuel injection, Exhaust, Mags. > Also A Pair of IGSO-540 BiA6 with logs, > Tomorrow will be the last chanceto save all the commander > parts!!!!!!!!!!!! > Please Help!! > Crazy Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com > To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; > COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:10 PM > Subject: MORRIS > > HI KIDS... > > Well, Morris and his attorney have agreed to conclude > there war if Morris pays him $15K. They had scheduled a meeting for > today, but Morris had not rased the $$. Thanks to all of you who > responded to his need. He still needs about 12K and he needs it > quick!! If you committed to help, but havent sent a check yet, today > is the day. If you have been sitting on the fence, today ids the day. > If you know anyone who needs a Lycoming IO-360 AiA, 200 HP, zero since > recent OH, with Logs, $10K (its a deal!!) today is the day. Thanks jb > > Barry Hancock 9 Leatherwood Court Coto de Caza, CA 92679 cell: (949) 300-5510 fax: (949) 766-0590 radialpower(at)cox.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2002
From: Robert C. Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: You Worry Me. (And they worry me to!! JetPaul)
Do you and you fellow Muslims hate us > > because we have befriended Israel, the ONLY civilized democratic nation in > > the entire middle-east I think the Turks might take offense to that. After all, they do share borders with Syria, Iran, and Iraq. I think that qualifies as 'The middle east' although they are the western part of it. I've spent a few months there, so I can speak a bit to it. Consider, they are the only (I forget exactly, and I should know but I used to) Muslim and or Middle Eastern country that is also a member of NATO. Nice people, also, for the most part. Green country, nice beaches, cheap beer. I'd consider taking a vacation there with my wife and family. Many Germans and other Western Europeans do. Topless beaches, if that signifies how liberal they are. They actively monitor what you might call religious extremism. You sort of have to be licensed to have a church, but as long as you are not some right wing nut job, it's not exactly repressive either. They do have a law against trying to convert people, but you are free to choose if I'm not mistaken. Fair enough considering the political climate there. Of course, they do bomb the Kurds, but that's another story. Rebuttals, but they are pretty progressive. I could go on and on, but I guess we're way off topic here, but I didn't start it. :) Check these out: http://www.altid.org/introframe.htm (I visited the castle shown here. Resort town, lots of Germans. Lots of Scandinavian ladies. :) http://www.angelfire.com/on/adana2000online/english.html (I went in the mosque shown at the top, further testimonial to their tolerance. Remove your shoes, bring a Turk with you, and be respectful, and make a small donation. Couple bucks.) FWIW, we are still flying Northern Watch missions out of Turkey and bombing and watching the Iraqis. http://www.eucom.mil/Directorates/ECPA/index.htm?http://www.eucom.mil/Direct orates/ECPA/Operations/onw/onw.htm&2 Bet you didn't realize that was still going on eh? Ordnance dropped on Iraq recently as July 4th, according to this website. Traveling Worldwide? Ask me about phones and service for only $139 a year. No roaming, prepaid, no hidden charges. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Prop AD
In a message dated 7/23/02 4:49:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dongirod(at)earthlink.net writes: > Commanderland; > I may have been out of town and missed any comments on the chat list. > But a friend just called and asked me about the Hartzell AD that was in the > July AOPA and if it applied to my Commander. I have not heard anything > from the FAA, so does anyone know? Does it apply to the 560E? Thanks. > Don > NOPE, Nothing new on your props.......jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: MORRIS UPDATE
HI KIDS... Well, first let me just say THANK YOU!! I am so amazed at the response to Morris Kernick's need that I am humbled. No, he doesn't have all the $$ he needs, But, he is getting close. I spoke with him this evening and he is in good spirits and extremely grateful for all you have done to help him. More good news. Some of you know that rescuing these parts is only 1/2 of the story. Morris must move Commander Services to a new location, a new airport. This is no small revelation for him as he loves where he lives and works. He has been vehement that he would not leave HYD. He has now come to the reality that this must happen and he is actively looking at alternatives. This is almost as important as the immediate need. So, what is next? Morris is planing to meet with some people who may be able to loan him the balance he needs for a short term. Thanks to you, an insurmountable amount of money needed has now become reachable (I hope) He hopes to have enough $$ in hand by weeks end. If you have committed to send him some, PLEASE do it ASAP!! I am thankful to all of you and proud to stand with those who gave in this cause. Commanders all around the world will benefit from Morris' continued presence in "Commanderland" Jim Metzger, Director, Twin Commander flight Group ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2002
From: Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Lycombing
Hey Guys, I put out the word to the RV list about Morris' IO-360. There's a guy in Hayward that says he's going to look at the engine for his project. Here's hoping it works out for both of them. Crunk ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2002
From: ProgSearch(at)aol.com <ProgSearch(at)aol.com>
Subject: Question
I would like to know who I need to call regarding speaking at the next TCFG fly in? I just flew a Shrike Commander from Cincinnati, Ohio to Athens, Greece. It was a wonderful trip over the North Atlantic. I have some nice pictures, video footage, and stories that I would like to share with other commander owners and operators. Thanks, Kevin Coons ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Lycombing
In a message dated 7/25/02 11:19:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, crunk12(at)bellsouth.net writes: > Hey Guys, > I put out the word to the RV list about Morris' IO-360. There's a guy in > Hayward that says he's going to look at the engine for his project. > Here's hoping it works out for both of them. > Crunk WOW!! GREAT NEWS, THANKS!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2002
From: Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: new address
My email address has changed to jtaddington(at)charter.net. Jim Addington ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Capt Jim Bob
Isn't it Nifty Capt Jim Bob is FIFTY Original owner 50 years SMOH Runs great Loaded IFR certified for operating in fog Gyro inoperable Exterior in good shape Interior in Excellent shape Pilot Head Autopilot works Partial Logs No damage history Lots of Warranty remaining If interested email Capt Jim Bob at N700pf(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Help Request
Does anyone have a phone number for "Palm Air" in Fl? I don't even know where they're located so can't find a number. Need to talk to someone there. Thanks, Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2002
From: Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net>
Subject: C&D Associates, and Janitrol Heaters
Last December I flew N2722B an AC560 to Michigan to have a new Heater installed. Using my plane as his test bed, C&D now have the new combustion heater fully STC'd for all Aero Commanders. If you looking to rid yourself of the Janitrol inspections, and want a new AD free STC'd combustion heater and blower if you need that, shoot them a call. I get nothing out if it other than the statisfaction that other folks can rid themselves of that nasty old Janitrol junk, in favor of a new heater using new technology. My installation was under $3,000.00. Some janitrol inspections, can run $1,800.00 depending on what you need. Some more some less. Either way its worth making a phone call. Their number is 616-695-7469 ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:04 PM Subject: Cleveland Brakes HI KIDS... I just sent some paperwork to Chris (around the world in a 560E) Wall. He is installing brand new Cleveland wheels and brakes on the "Dream catcher" I want to remind you that you can install new Cleveland on all short bodied Commanders (except the 520 -560) for about $2500 by using special paperwork only available from the TCFG. These are the old 4 piston, single caliper style brakes that work so well (no jerky steering and they don't weigh any more than original, meaning they wont pull the gear down on the old bathtub Commanders). They were discontinued some years back and replaced by the more powerful 4 piston brakes that seem to cause some taxing troubles. Anyway, this is a really good deal and if you are a TCFG member, take advantage of this opportunity Happy 4th!!!! capt (one day left) jimbob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2002
From: Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net>
Subject: Re: Help Request
Only Palm Air I would find was West Palm Beach Air 1435 Northeast 4th Avenue Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33304 Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 12:18 PM Subject: Help Request > Does anyone have a phone number for "Palm Air" in Fl? > I don't even know where they're located so can't find > a number. Need to talk to someone there. > > Thanks, > Chris > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2002
From: Glenn Sneed <srglenn1(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: MORRIS UPDATE
JB, I saw this add on Wed. evening while waiting to get a haircut. After Thurs. email, the add came to mind. Attacked is the ad from the Denver Post. It was only in the Wed. paper. It is an idea. You probably the one who knows Morris the best. I leave the lead up to you. Glenn Sneed ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: C&D Associates, and Janitrol Heaters
Nice job!! Can you do something about the Hatrzel prop AD;>) bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Intrex To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 12:53 PM Subject: C&D Associates, and Janitrol Heaters Last December I flew N2722B an AC560 to Michigan to have a new Heater installed. Using my plane as his test bed, C&D now have the new combustion heater fully STC'd for all Aero Commanders. If you looking to rid yourself of the Janitrol inspections, and want a new AD free STC'd combustion heater and blower if you need that, shoot them a call. I get nothing out if it other than the statisfaction that other folks can rid themselves of that nasty old Janitrol junk, in favor of a new heater using new technology. My installation was under $3,000.00. Some janitrol inspections, can run $1,800.00 depending on what you need. Some more some less. Either way its worth making a phone call. Their number is 616-695-7469 ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:04 PM Subject: Cleveland Brakes HI KIDS... I just sent some paperwork to Chris (around the world in a 560E) Wall. He is installing brand new Cleveland wheels and brakes on the "Dream catcher" I want to remind you that you can install new Cleveland on all short bodied Commanders (except the 520 -560) for about $2500 by using special paperwork only available from the TCFG. These are the old 4 piston, single caliper style brakes that work so well (no jerky steering and they don't weigh any more than original, meaning they wont pull the gear down on the old bathtub Commanders). They were discontinued some years back and replaced by the more powerful 4 piston brakes that seem to cause some taxing troubles. Anyway, this is a really good deal and if you are a TCFG member, take advantage of this opportunity Happy 4th!!!! capt (one day left) jimbob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2002
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Capt Jim Bob
In a message dated 07/26/02 11:04:23 Pacific Daylight Time, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com writes: > Isn't it Nifty > Capt Jim Bob is FIFTY Well, then, you can be entered in airshows as a "classic." I bet you'd win a Best of Show award. Happy Birthday Cap't. Jimbob. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2002
From: Intrex <woodlema(at)intrex.net>
Subject: Re: C&D Associates, and Janitrol Heaters
Well, I did. Back when it was issued, I spent close to the 2 year time limit looking for options, and bought a brand new set of Hartzel Blades. Well no more AD. Hartzell offered at the time new blades at 50% off retail. Then 10k per prop. Now they are close to 20k per prop. I guess the answer is new props. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bow To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 7:38 PM Subject: Re: C&D Associates, and Janitrol Heaters Nice job!! Can you do something about the Hatrzel prop AD;>) bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Intrex To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 12:53 PM Subject: C&D Associates, and Janitrol Heaters Last December I flew N2722B an AC560 to Michigan to have a new Heater installed. Using my plane as his test bed, C&D now have the new combustion heater fully STC'd for all Aero Commanders. If you looking to rid yourself of the Janitrol inspections, and want a new AD free STC'd combustion heater and blower if you need that, shoot them a call. I get nothing out if it other than the statisfaction that other folks can rid themselves of that nasty old Janitrol junk, in favor of a new heater using new technology. My installation was under $3,000.00. Some janitrol inspections, can run $1,800.00 depending on what you need. Some more some less. Either way its worth making a phone call. Their number is 616-695-7469 ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:04 PM Subject: Cleveland Brakes HI KIDS... I just sent some paperwork to Chris (around the world in a 560E) Wall. He is installing brand new Cleveland wheels and brakes on the "Dream catcher" I want to remind you that you can install new Cleveland on all short bodied Commanders (except the 520 -560) for about $2500 by using special paperwork only available from the TCFG. These are the old 4 piston, single caliper style brakes that work so well (no jerky steering and they don't weigh any more than original, meaning they wont pull the gear down on the old bathtub Commanders). They were discontinued some years back and replaced by the more powerful 4 piston brakes that seem to cause some taxing troubles. Anyway, this is a really good deal and if you are a TCFG member, take advantage of this opportunity Happy 4th!!!! capt (one day left) jimbob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Possible interest - 500S parts/rebuild plane
FYI, There is a 1974 Shrike listed on ebay. Landing accident with apparent substantial damage. Ad implies ferriable. Reserve is $10,000 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1846830540 Might be a good source for parts for someone or a major restoration project.... Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Capt Jim Bob
Well, then, you can be entered in airshows as a "classic." Yeh! Trouble is though, 'Vintage' will be upon him before he knows it! Trouble is though, I'm a few years ahead of him!! Regards to All in CommanderLand, Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 4:35 AM Subject: Re: Capt Jim Bob In a message dated 07/26/02 11:04:23 Pacific Daylight Time, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com writes: Isn't it Nifty Capt Jim Bob is FIFTY Well, then, you can be entered in airshows as a "classic." I bet you'd win a Best of Show award. Happy Birthday Cap't. Jimbob. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Capt Jim Bob
In a message dated 7/27/02 6:46:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: > Trouble is though, I'm a few years ahead of him!! > > AT LEAST THAT IS SOME GOOD NEWS!! :-) jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2002
From: Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Capt Jim Bob
Capt jb! The heartiest of upside down birthday wishes from here in Oz! Have a great day and take 222js out for fifty circuits or more. A great day around the Flight Group offices today... Ice cold Seaview champagne flowing in the direction of our beloved Group Captain. Cheers Russell On 26/7/02 11:58 PM, "YOURTCFG(at)aol.com" wrote: > Isn't it Nifty > Capt Jim Bob is FIFTY > > Original owner > 50 years SMOH > Runs great > Loaded > IFR certified for operating in fog > Gyro inoperable > Exterior in good shape > Interior in Excellent shape > Pilot Head > Autopilot works > Partial Logs > No damage history > Lots of Warranty remaining > > If interested email Capt Jim Bob at N700pf(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Aretha
There is little known Commander trivia fact that has not gotten its proper notice. That being, the Commander Theme song. It has been ignored up to this point. It would still be ignored had I not been reminded yesterday. We went down to Lakeland(as in Sun-N-Fun) to Tony's Airside Restaurant. We were marshaled in to parking, just like everyone else. At the edge of the ramp were 2 Mooneys, 1 Bonanza, 3 Cherokee 140s. But, right in the center, by the entrance, with a red carpet at the door.............US in our Aero Commander. Pam really liked that. One of the Mooney pilots came over to the table and asked why we got the red carpet. I didn't have an answer. Oh, the Theme song is by Aretha Franklin, R-E-S-P-E-C-T Bilbo Aero Commander 500A N78379 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2002
From: Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: 500A
While my son and I were spending some quality time washing & detailing our 680F today at SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA), a nice lady from Fresno-Chandler Airport wandered by and asked if we knew anybody with a 500A for sale. Her name is Jacqui Goff, and owns "Inside Aviation"...phone number 530 930 0327. If anyone can help her out, she'd appreciate a call. By the way, the 680F looks great...all clean and pretty. Ready for a week of fun in Montana...departure is Wedneasday morning. Just installed a six-place "PS Engineering" intercom and stereo system, and will bring along a portable DVD video player (plugs into the intercom for superb stereo sound)...for "in-flight" movies on the way...nothing but the best for my passengers. Have a good week everyone. Randy Dettmer 680F/N6253X ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: 500A
In a message dated 7/28/02 10:58:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes: > By the way, the 680F looks great...all clean and pretty. Ready for a week > of fun in Montana...departure is Wedneasday morning. Just installed a > six-place "PS Engineering" intercom and stereo system, and will bring along > a portable DVD video player (plugs into the intercom for superb stereo > sound)...for "in-flight" movies on the way...nothing but the best for my > passengers. > WOW, Sounds cool!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2002
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: 500A for sale
----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> To: Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: Re: 500A for sale > OOPS...thanks for pointing that out. The correct number is 559 930 0327. > > Good luck Gary. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com> > To: > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:12 PM > Subject: 500A for sale > > > > Randy, > > I have a 500A Colemill that I may sell or trade. > > The number posted is unavailable, for the prospective purchaser. > > Please check and resend. Or have the buyer call me or e-mail me direct. > > Thanks, > > Gary Tillman N811D > > 800-228-4283 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: outtage
FYI, aerocommander.com and the chatlist server will be going down sometime today (Tues) and may be unavailable until until tomorrow at the latest. I'll try to have everything back up as quickly as possible at the new location. thanks, chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2002
From: ALLAN HOFFMAN <ahoffman1(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Help Request
chris, florida lists all ficticious names and corporate names at ccfcorp.dos.state.fl.us/ i took a quick look and it does not look very good. maybe if i had more information.... al hoffman from: Chris Schuermann >To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:18:37 -0500 >Subject: Help Request >Message-ID: <3D41765D.F774E151@c2-tech.com> > >Does anyone have a phone number for "Palm Air" in Fl? >I don't even know where they're located so can't find >a number. Need to talk to someone there. > >Thanks, >Chris > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE E-MAIL and FREE INTERNET ACCESS! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Update
Howdy boys and girls Well, I _think_ that the web site and chatlists are all back up and running. Been chasing some gremlins around for the last few hours and now all seems to be okay. I'm sure we'll find a few more problems over the next few days but y'all can feel free to resume sending viruses out now :-) If you note a change in the email address (from c2-tech.com to cytetech.com), just ignore it. The two domains are mapped to eachother - either works the same. If you run into any problems, just bear with me, I'm probably working on it. If they still exist in a couple of days, drop me a note. chris schuermann ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Update
THANKS CHRIS!!!!!!!!!!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2002
From: Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
Subject: Re: Update
DITTO!!!!!!!! GS -----Original Message----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com [mailto:YOURTCFG(at)aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:57 PM To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com; commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Subject: Re: Update THANKS CHRIS!!!!!!!!!!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2002
From: Harry Merritt <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Update
I an posting this for Morris: With all the help from the Commander guys, Morris was able to retrieve most of the Spare Parts and Tooling. He ask me to tell every one that he is very thankful for the outpouring of support!!! also Thank GOD for his help. Crazy Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sneed, Glen" <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> To: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: RE: Update > DITTO!!!!!!!! > > GS > > -----Original Message----- > From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com [mailto:YOURTCFG(at)aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:57 PM > To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com; commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com > Subject: Re: Update > > > THANKS CHRIS!!!!!!!!!!! jb > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2002
From: Nicolene van Niekerk <nicolene(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Anyone??
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: "Nico van Niekerk" Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 7:11 PM Subject: Re: Anyone?? > > Let me know. > > Thanks > > Nico > > Thanks Nico. Supporting the web site would be easy. I'm > not sure how to handle the chatlist though. I'm running a > custom built MMDF mail system. I suppose anyone who has > some Unix experience could install/build and support. You'll > just have to tell me what you can do and we'll go from there. > > Chris > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Update
Seconded!!!! Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 4:56 AM Subject: Re: Update THANKS CHRIS!!!!!!!!!!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2002
From: mrp37(at)mindspring.com <mrp37(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Update
As always; Awesome Work! Thanks Chris! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Help Please.
In a message dated 8/1/02 10:00:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ProgSearch writes: > Capt. Jim > > I saw an email circulating on a woman who wants to by a 500a. I deleted the > email before I copied down the name and number. Do yo happen to have it? > > Thank You, > Kevin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: NICE FLIGHT
HI KIDS.. Well, it seems I have been trying wear old tripe 2 out! Last weekend we had our local airport pancake breakfast and I flew 15 of the boy scouts that were doing the cooking for us, they had a blast. We had a J-3 and a Cherokee flying as well, but the commander was the most requested airplane (Yea!). Then on Wednesday we flew to an "every Wednesday" car show and BBQ at Pearson Airpark, right across the river from PDX. The had about 250 great cars. Something for everybody, rods, muscle cars including a 1964 ford 427 factory racer with aluminum bumpers and a 1969 ply RR, Hemi car!! The have great food and live music and it is smack on the airport. Had six on board. Took a sunset cruise down the Columbia Rive to moltnoma falls on the way back home. Landed just as the sun was setting. Great fun. Then, last night, when we got home, Paul Odum, Ex TCFG guy (Sold his 680E, N680E, to Barry) called from Wenachee and spent the night with us. Got up this AM and flew him and his son to Coos Bay, OR. To look at a Bonanza he wants to by. (from a Commander to a Bonanza?? He needs to take two aspirin and stay out of the sun!!) Almost exactly 2 hours round trip, burned 69 gal, averaged 180 MPH down low. All in all a bunch of fun!! Hope all is well in Commanderland. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2002
From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Skydrol Hyd. Pump
NEEDED Skydrol hydraulic pump for 680F(P) Stratopower PT # 67WL350 New, Rebuilt, or Serviceable will work for me. Also, does anyone have a reccomendation for a rebuild shop who does good quality at a reasonable price on these pumps? We have fragged two of these in fairly short order on the same engine. We think that the oil supply line is plugged. Thanx! Moe Mills ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: your charge
My Emergency Air Reservoir used to stay charged for 2-3 months. It's down to about 3 weeks. How long is "your charge" to supposed to "stay up"? Bilbo Aero Commander 500A N78379 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Adel boost pump
I have just completed 8.5 hours of operation on an Adel boost pump, overhauled TWICE since 5 months by The Aviation Group in Peachtree, Ga. The second overhaul came after zero hours of operation. I guess they are better now by 8.5 hours. Do I give them another chance and pay another $500.00 for another R and R job? This will be about $1500.00 for one pump(3 round trips plus $100.00 UPS shipping)in 5 months. I got one from Aircraft Accessories in Tulsa and it worked the first time and still does. Is it time to kiss the "Group" good by and pay AA in Tulsa again?? Pissed off, Bilbo Aero Commander 500A N78379 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2002
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: your charge
Mine stays charged about 4-5 months. Randy Dettmer 680F/N6253X ----- Original Message ----- From: Bow To: commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:12 AM Subject: your charge My Emergency Air Reservoir used to stay charged for 2-3 months. It's down to about 3 weeks. How long is "your charge" to supposed to "stay up"? Bilbo Aero Commander 500A N78379 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: FAA AIRWORHINESS CONCERN SHEET
HI KIDS. The FAA has sent me an ACS regarding cracking of the mounting flange on Bendix (now TCM) D2000 series mags. These are the "dual" type that would only be found on the IO-720 engine, but they also asked if anyone has had ANY incidents of flange cracking on ANY model of bendix mags. I have never heard of one. Please reply to me and I will forward a leter and repot on to the FAA. Thanks!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: FLY-IN
HI KIDS.. I just got an update on the room reservations that have been made so far. 16, yea! This is a much faster response than last year. Still, if you are planing to attend, the time to reserve is now! Also, I have only received a handful of registration form (thank you) so if you have a room but haven't sent your registration form, please do so. It looks like this will be a great event so plan to attend. TCFG members should have the registration form in the last newsletter. If you are not a TCFG member, but plan to attend, contact me and I will send the form post haste (It would also be a good time to join the TCFG and save $25 per person on the flyin). I plan to fly triple 2 to Sandpiont Idaho (actually a little town east of there, Clark Fork) to a great little grass strip for Sue's family reunion. We will return Sunday night late (Sure nice to have two motors for that "night over the mountains" stuff!). Hope all is well in Commanderland...jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: (no subject)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2002
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bltoilet.htm LOVE these urban legends.... ----- Original Message ----- From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> To: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:41 PM Subject: Fwd: (no subject) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Roy LoPresti gone
I'm sure most of you know the name Roy LoPresti and of his aerodynamic accomplishments. Roy passed away yesterday morning of complications from a fall off the roof of his house. He was 73. Its always sad to loose one of aviations great minds. Please keep Roys family in your thoughts. Roy's family intends to keep the business (LoPristi Speed Merchants) going strong. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2002
From: Phil Stubbs <br549phil(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: stec
Have sent inquirees to several shops about putting an STEC 30 AP in the 560F. They say 560F is not on the stc list while other TCs are. Anyone know why or have an STEC installed? Phil Stubbs N160K ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2002
From: Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com>
Subject: Re: stec
Well, they have to have a plane to do the original STC on. The 520 is likewise not blessed by STEC. The brittain, BTW, is. Bruce A. Campbell AC52 N4186B ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Stubbs To: commtech Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:03 PM Subject: stec Have sent inquirees to several shops about putting an STEC 30 AP in the 560F. They say 560F is not on the stc list while other TCs are. Anyone know why or have an STEC installed? Phil Stubbs N160K ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2002
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com <BillLeff1(at)aol.com>
Subject: S-Tec Auto Pilot
If you can get to the right person at S-Tec they will add the 560F if you can convince them that it is the same as a model already covered. I Just had them add a Cessna 320 too the STC, it took 12 weeks and required a firm purchase order. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: NEW MEMBER
HI KIDS. Please welcome a new TCFG member, Mr. Bill Smith. Bill flies a 690A from Riverside Il and hase a great (for all you golfers) company name "Greenfairways inc." His airplane is equipped with winglets and is pretty low time for a turbine, 6500 hours. Welcome aboard Bill and thanks to John Bosch from Commander Aero for recommending us! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: test
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: 560F
Cool, Harry, Is that a "Mid Door Model" I didn't know there was an STC for that, but it looks nice. bilbo > I Have A Very Nice Aerocommander (AC-560) > N560F New Annual Specs. on www.aerocommander.com > Asking 125,000.00 > Harry Merritt > 321 267-3141 > New Paint > Make Offer, Need to Sell > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: LOST 690A
HI KIDS. Sad news. We lost a 690A yesterday in Bishop CA. No details yet but the owner was Galen Rowell, a famous photographer and his wife. Two others on board also lost their lives. Will share more info as it becomes available. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: (no subject)
The N number was N690TB jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2002
From: Craig Lundborg <dltafolk(at)inreach.com>
Subject: Re: NEW MEMBER
Another Commander down!! Bishop, California.....4 people on board perished.....eyewitness says the sky was clear and the aircraft was just turning toward the airport [final?] and it just seemed to fall out of the sky then the nose turned down and went in to the ground....pilot was 46 and his wife and chartered to bring a couple back from the Bay area. ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 11:28 AM Subject: NEW MEMBER HI KIDS. Please welcome a new TCFG member, Mr. Bill Smith. Bill flies a 690A from Riverside Il and hase a great (for all you golfers) company name "Greenfairways inc." His airplane is equipped with winglets and is pretty low time for a turbine, 6500 hours. Welcome aboard Bill and thanks to John Bosch from Commander Aero for recommending us! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2002
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Just read an article in today's local paper...it is reported that the Commander was a charter from Oakland to Bishop. Apparently the photographer and wife were returning home from a trip to Alaska. The plan crashed while on approach to Bishop around 1:30 AM in clear weather. FAA is investigating. RD ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; COMMANDERTECH(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 9:14 AM Subject: (no subject) The N number was N690TB jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: NICE FLIGHT
HI KIDS. Took triple 2 to north Idaho (25 miles east of Sandpoint, SZT) last weekend to Sue's family reunion. It was a great flight. We have been blessed with amazing weather this summer (101 deg. here yesterday, if this is "Global warming," bring it on)! We left Friday afternoon, having a leisure morning and even going to a yard sale of two. Had a GREAT view of all 5 mountains (Hood, Adams, Rainier, Jefferson and what is left of St. Helens) on climb out. It is about 360 SM to the little grass strip behind my mother in law's house. We were about 1 + 35 including a deviation around a couple of "hot" restricted areas. The speed I saw most often on the GPS was 211mph. Indicated about 155 - 156 kts @ 11.5 Used 30 and 2500. Feels really good at the lower RPM. On the was home we were at 10.5, 30 and 2600 into a little head wind. 158 kts ias but only 202mph on the GPS, took 2 + 50. Both trips were velvet smooth, not a cloud for 500 miles. The airstrip is 2600 feet long, grass (dirt) and 2000msl. We left just before sunset and had an audience. Got out super easy. Landed just after dark. Fun stuff! We could not have attended this even had we not had the Commander as Sue had an important meeting Monday, AM, we simply could not have attended the get together (Sunday afternoon) and got back home ANY OTHER WAY. Aint Commanders great! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: SPAM AND VIRUSES - REQUEST
Okay - one last time folks... SOMEONE has severe virus problems. You probably don't even know who you are. PLEASE remove ALL entries you have for "commanderchat", "commandertech", or the "request" address from your email address books IMMEDIATLY. This means everyone. This virus works by sending out email to everyone in your address book. When it goes to the list address, it is re- send to everyone on the list. Even if you are absolutely certain you don't have a virus, PLEASE remove these addresses from you list NOW. They are easy to remember - write them down on a sticky note. The only way we are going to get rid of this problem is to have these addresses removed from your books. The ONLY exemptions to this rule are Mac and Linux users. Do it today before you forget. Thanks Chris Schuermann PS: it is a giant pain in the butt for me to backtrack an email message which has been forged. Don't make me do that 'cause I'll be pretty annoyed when I find where it came from... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2002
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
Quick questions, What was the DA on take-off from the grass (dirt) strip?, What was your all up weight on take-off from the grass strip?, What does your manual state the take-off run would be (on asphalt)?. Tom... ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 10:48 Subject: NICE FLIGHT HI KIDS. Took triple 2 to north Idaho (25 miles east of Sandpoint, SZT) last weekend to Sue's family reunion. It was a great flight. We have been blessed with amazing weather this summer (101 deg. here yesterday, if this is "Global warming," bring it on)! We left Friday afternoon, having a leisure morning and even going to a yard sale of two. Had a GREAT view of all 5 mountains (Hood, Adams, Rainier, Jefferson and what is left of St. Helens) on climb out. It is about 360 SM to the little grass strip behind my mother in law's house. We were about 1 + 35 including a deviation around a couple of "hot" restricted areas. The speed I saw most often on the GPS was 211mph. Indicated about 155 - 156 kts @ 11.5 Used 30 and 2500. Feels really good at the lower RPM. On the was home we were at 10.5, 30 and 2600 into a little head wind. 158 kts ias but only 202mph on the GPS, took 2 + 50. Both trips were velvet smooth, not a cloud for 500 miles. The airstrip is 2600 feet long, grass (dirt) and 2000msl. We left just before sunset and had an audience. Got out super easy. Landed just after dark. Fun stuff! We could not have attended this even had we not had the Commander as Sue had an important meeting Monday, AM, we simply could not have attended the get together (Sunday afternoon) and got back home ANY OTHER WAY. Aint Commanders great! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
In a message dated 8/14/02 12:03:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca writes: > Quick questions, > What was the DA on take-off from the grass (dirt) strip?, > What was your all up weight on take-off from the grass strip?, > What does your manual state the take-off run would be (on asphalt)?. > Tom... > HI TOM. I didn't figure it but it was 85 deg, 2050 MSL. The gear was in transit at the 1/2 way point using normal TO technique and power (1/3 flap, 45" and 3400 RPM, 48.5 is available). We were at about, let me see, #6+733=& 44%%2 + = 6400 pounds (125 gal, Sue and I, two dogs and a bunch of baggage maybe 75#?) I will check this afternoon, but I am certain that there is no distention made in the, rather simple, performance charts. It does make a difference, I could feel it in the acceleration. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2002
From: Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com>
Subject: 520 for sale
At last, enjoy a pretty much fully restored AC 520, including - new kydex interior - recovered seats - new seat rails (believe me you wont want to miss these!) - Garmin IFR GPX (155 XL) -King KX 165A (including digital bearings) - refurbish instruments (pretty much all of the are replaced in the last 9 mos And Everything that poor Chris did over Thounsands of Years of Refurb for *$75000* US to he who speaks up..... no really, this is a screaming deal. gimme a buzz....... baruch(at)intelligentflight.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
Group Capt JB! Another great flight in the Pacific NW! Nice to read that RockyT & Co are still regularly clocking up Commander time. Thanks for sharing with us. Cheers from Oz Russell On 15/8/02 3:48 AM, "YOURTCFG(at)aol.com" wrote: > HI KIDS. > > Took triple 2 to north Idaho (25 miles east of Sandpoint, SZT) > last weekend to Sue's family reunion. It was a great flight. We have been > blessed with amazing weather this summer (101 deg. here yesterday, if this is > "Global warming," bring it on)! > We left Friday afternoon, having a leisure morning and even going to a > yard sale of two. Had a GREAT view of all 5 mountains (Hood, Adams, Rainier, > Jefferson and what is left of St. Helens) on climb out. It is about 360 SM to > the little grass strip behind my mother in law's house. We were about 1 + 35 > including a deviation around a couple of "hot" restricted areas. The speed I > saw most often on the GPS was 211mph. Indicated about 155 - 156 kts @ 11.5 > Used 30 and 2500. Feels really good at the lower RPM. > On the was home we were at 10.5, 30 and 2600 into a little head wind. > 158 kts ias but only 202mph on the GPS, took 2 + 50. Both trips were velvet > smooth, not a cloud for 500 miles. > The airstrip is 2600 feet long, grass (dirt) and 2000msl. We left > just before sunset and had an audience. Got out super easy. Landed just > after dark. Fun stuff! We could not have attended this even had we not had > the Commander as Sue had an important meeting Monday, AM, we simply could not > have attended the get together (Sunday afternoon) and got back home ANY OTHER > WAY. Aint Commanders great! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: 9-11
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: SPAM AND VIRUSES - REQUEST
Yes Sir Boss, Puttin em on here now Boss. Shakin the tree Boss......Takin em off here now Boss... And Ya'll better not make Chris have to say...."What we have here, is a failure to communicate!!" JetPaul I deleted the chat goup from my address book....DID YOU??? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: FLY-IN
HI KIDS. I am reminding all of you to send in your registration form for the fly-in ASAP. I is going to be a great event this year and if you love Commanders (and you must, or you wouldn't be on this list) you need to be there. If you need a registration form, contact me and I will mail or fax you one. Lets make this the best attended fly-in ever. Jim Metzger Director, Twin Commander flight Group ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SPAM AND VIRUSES - REQUEST
Done mine! ALL addresses deleted, after doing a 'Select All' and 'Copy' into a Word document, duly saved. Easy to up-date if necessary, and can copy and paste any entry I need onto the address line for future email needs. One thing Chris - should the 'Chat' list receive the same message? Very Best Regards, Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:34 PM Subject: SPAM AND VIRUSES - REQUEST | Okay - one last time folks... | SOMEONE has severe virus problems. You probably don't even | know who you are. PLEASE remove ALL entries you have for | "commanderchat", "commandertech", or the "request" address | from your email address books IMMEDIATLY. This means everyone. | This virus works by sending out email to everyone in your | address book. When it goes to the list address, it is re- | send to everyone on the list. Even if you are absolutely | certain you don't have a virus, PLEASE remove these addresses | from you list NOW. They are easy to remember - write them | down on a sticky note. The only way we are going to get rid | of this problem is to have these addresses removed from your | books. The ONLY exemptions to this rule are Mac and Linux | users. Do it today before you forget. | | Thanks | Chris Schuermann | | PS: it is a giant pain in the butt for me to backtrack an email | message which has been forged. Don't make me do that 'cause I'll | be pretty annoyed when I find where it came from... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: SPAM AND VIRUSES - REQUEST
Barry Collman wrote: > Done mine! Bless you sir! I've received a number of positive responses so far. Let's hope that we've wiped this foolishness out. Until such time as our man Bill G gets around to fixing these horrible flaws in MS' email clients, this is the only way I can see to make us all happy campers. > One thing Chris - should the 'Chat' list receive the same message? Actually, the "chat" list is a subset of the "tech" list. A posting to the tech list (at least right now) hits everyone. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: SPAM AND VIRUSES - REQUEST
ME TOO jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: 560A (HC)
LOOKING FOR "JOHNNY" FROM ATLANTA WHO WAS LOOKING FOR THE 560A (HC). CONTACT ME, I HAVE NEWS. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!!
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!!
I looked. Turns out I'm squeamish!! Very sad about Galen Rowell. I really admired his photographic work (by the way, if you ever use Kaiser Air at Oakland, California, you'll see some of his work gracing the FBO walls). Q: Was he flying the Turbo Commander? I'm a bit confused about it being "chartered" but he, his wife and another couple perishing aboard with no mention of a pilot, charter or otherwise. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: Todd Hindmarsh <todd(at)inpnet.org>
Subject: Re: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!!
Here's a release from AOPA on the crash. It gives a little more information. PHOTOGRAPHER GALEN ROWELL, WIFE DIE IN CRASH Galen Rowell, a 61-year-old wilderness photographer who was named one of five "Masters of the Landscape" by "Outdoor Photography" magazine in August, died with his wife, Barbara, in the crash of a privately owned 1973 Twin Commander 690A August 11 near their home in Bishop, California, on August 11. Combining his passions for photography and mountain climbing, Rowell authored 18 books on rugged wilderness photography. He and his wife were returning home after leading a photography group on a circumnavigation of the Bering Sea. Barbara Cushman Rowell was president of her husband's gallery, publishing, and stock photography business, Mountain Light. A private pilot, she frequently flew her Cessna T206 throughout North America in support of conservation causes and recently completed her first book, "Flying South: A Pilot's Inner Journey," to be released by Mountain Light in October. Also killed in the crash were the pilot, Tom Reid, and passenger Carol McAfee, both of Bishop. The NTSB reported that the aircraft crashed 1.5 miles from the approach end of Runway 30 at Bishop Airport ( http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/B_0812_Y.txt ) Todd ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!!
I DID NOT need to see that last one. Leave something to the imagination, would ya? Barry Hancock and Drew Blahnick Red Stars Inc. www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!!
Keith, I think the pilot's name was Tom Reed. Not someone Morris or I knew. I do understand that Mrs. Rowell was an accomplished pilot and almost always flew the 690A herself, so this seems kind of odd that she *wouldn't* be flying. Evidently there was another passenger on board too. I'm very interested in hearing eyewitness accounts and reading the official accident report. I know the weather was clear.... /J ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 7:41 AM Subject: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!! I looked. Turns out I'm squeamish!! Very sad about Galen Rowell. I really admired his photographic work (by the way, if you ever use Kaiser Air at Oakland, California, you'll see some of his work gracing the FBO walls). Q: Was he flying the Turbo Commander? I'm a bit confused about it being "chartered" but he, his wife and another couple perishing aboard with no mention of a pilot, charter or otherwise. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!!
OK, so the official report sheds more light and my facts were a little off.... ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: CloudCraft(at)aol.com ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: Re: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!! Keith, I think the pilot's name was Tom Reed. Not someone Morris or I knew. I do understand that Mrs. Rowell was an accomplished pilot and almost always flew the 690A herself, so this seems kind of odd that she *wouldn't* be flying. Evidently there was another passenger on board too. I'm very interested in hearing eyewitness accounts and reading the official accident report. I know the weather was clear.... /J ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 7:41 AM Subject: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!! I looked. Turns out I'm squeamish!! Very sad about Galen Rowell. I really admired his photographic work (by the way, if you ever use Kaiser Air at Oakland, California, you'll see some of his work gracing the FBO walls). Q: Was he flying the Turbo Commander? I'm a bit confused about it being "chartered" but he, his wife and another couple perishing aboard with no mention of a pilot, charter or otherwise. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Crash of N690TB
N690TB was a 690A, serial 11109. Sadly, Tom Bishop only appears to have bought his Commander on 23rd April this year. Could unfamiliarity have played a part? I see the time quoted was "08:24". This though, is GMT isn't it? So, it was in darkness at 00:24 local time? Perhaps best to wait for the official NTSB Report before I conjecture further. Best Regards, Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Hindmarsh To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 4:12 PM Subject: RE: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!! Here's a release from AOPA on the crash. It gives a little more information. PHOTOGRAPHER GALEN ROWELL, WIFE DIE IN CRASH Galen Rowell, a 61-year-old wilderness photographer who was named one of five "Masters of the Landscape" by "Outdoor Photography" magazine in August, died with his wife, Barbara, in the crash of a privately owned 1973 Twin Commander 690A August 11 near their home in Bishop, California, on August 11. Combining his passions for photography and mountain climbing, Rowell authored 18 books on rugged wilderness photography. He and his wife were returning home after leading a photography group on a circumnavigation of the Bering Sea. Barbara Cushman Rowell was president of her husband's gallery, publishing, and stock photography business, Mountain Light. A private pilot, she frequently flew her Cessna T206 throughout North America in support of conservation causes and recently completed her first book, "Flying South: A Pilot's Inner Journey," to be released by Mountain Light in October. Also killed in the crash were the pilot, Tom Reid, and passenger Carol McAfee, both of Bishop. The NTSB reported that the aircraft crashed 1.5 miles from the approach end of Runway 30 at Bishop Airport ( http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/B_0812_Y.txt ) Todd ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Crash of N690TB
Apologies. I've just noticed an error in my original post. For Tom Bishop, read Tom Reid. Regards, Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 5:38 PM Subject: Re: Crash of N690TB N690TB was a 690A, serial 11109. Sadly, Tom Bishop only appears to have bought his Commander on 23rd April this year. Could unfamiliarity have played a part? I see the time quoted was "08:24". This though, is GMT isn't it? So, it was in darkness at 00:24 local time? Perhaps best to wait for the official NTSB Report before I conjecture further. Best Regards, Barry C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Hindmarsh To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 4:12 PM Subject: RE: Horror crash of SU-27. Don't look if you are squeamish!! Here's a release from AOPA on the crash. It gives a little more information. PHOTOGRAPHER GALEN ROWELL, WIFE DIE IN CRASH Galen Rowell, a 61-year-old wilderness photographer who was named one of five "Masters of the Landscape" by "Outdoor Photography" magazine in August, died with his wife, Barbara, in the crash of a privately owned 1973 Twin Commander 690A August 11 near their home in Bishop, California, on August 11. Combining his passions for photography and mountain climbing, Rowell authored 18 books on rugged wilderness photography. He and his wife were returning home after leading a photography group on a circumnavigation of the Bering Sea. Barbara Cushman Rowell was president of her husband's gallery, publishing, and stock photography business, Mountain Light. A private pilot, she frequently flew her Cessna T206 throughout North America in support of conservation causes and recently completed her first book, "Flying South: A Pilot's Inner Journey," to be released by Mountain Light in October. Also killed in the crash were the pilot, Tom Reid, and passenger Carol McAfee, both of Bishop. The NTSB reported that the aircraft crashed 1.5 miles from the approach end of Runway 30 at Bishop Airport ( http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/B_0812_Y.txt ) Todd ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: The woodpecker may have to go!
>The woodpecker might have to go >: > > >(Embedded image moved to file: pic22310.jpg) > > >Everything I need to know about life, I learned from Noah's Ark... One: >Don't miss the boat. Two: Remember that we are all in the same boat. Three: >Plan ahead. It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark. Four: Stay fit. When >you're 600 years old, someone may ask you to do something really big. Five: >Don't listen to critics; just get on with the job that needs to be done. >Six: Build your future on high ground. Seven: For safety's sake, travel in >pairs. Eight: Speed isn't always an advantage. The snails were on board >with the cheetahs. Nine: When you're stressed, float a while. Ten: >Remember, the Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals. >Eleven: No matter the storm, when you are with God, there's always a >rainbow waiting. NOW, wasn't that nice? Pass it along and make someone else >smile, too > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2002
From: todd(at)inpnet.org <todd(at)inpnet.org>
Subject: Riveting A-6 Landing
Wild!! Read the story first! Then look a the pics. Lieutenant Keith Gallagher's Account: Murphy's Law says, "Whatever can go wrong, will, and when you least expect it." (And, of course, we all know that Murphy was an aviator.) Murphy was correct beyond his wildest dreams in my case. Fortunately for me, however, he failed to follow through. On my 26th birthday I was blindsided by a piece of bad luck the size of Texas that should have killed me. Luckily, it was followed immediately by a whole slew of miracles that allowed me to be around for my 27th. Not even Murphy could have conceived of such a bizarre accident (many people still find it hard to believe), and the fact that I am here to write about it makes it that much more bizarre. We were the overhead tanker, one-third of the way through cruise, making circles in the sky. Although the tanker pattern can be pretty boring midway through the cycle, we were alert and maintaining a good lookout doctrine because our airwing had a mid-air less than a week before, and we did not want to repeat. We felt we were ready for "any" emergency: fire lights, hydraulic failures and fuel transfer problems. Bring 'em on! We were ready for them. After all, how much trouble can two JOs get in overhead the ship? After my third fuel update call, we decided that the left outboard drop was going to require a little help in order to transfer. NATOPS recommends applying positive and negative G to force the valve open. As the pilot pulled the stick back I wondered how many times we would have to porpoise the nose of the plane before the valve opened. As he moved the stick forward, I felt the familiar sensation of negative "G", and then something strange happened: my head touched the canopy. For a brief moment I thought that I had failed to tighten my lap belts, but I knew that wasn't true. Before I could complete that thought, there was a loud bang, followed by wind, noise, disorientation and more wind, wind, wind. Confusion reigned in my mind as I was forced back against my seat, head against the headrest, arms out behind me, the wind roaring in my head, pounding against my body. "Did the canopy blow off? Did I eject? Did my windscreen implode?" All of these questions occurred to me amidst the pandemonium in my mind and over my body. These questions were quickly answered, and replaced by a thousand more, as I looked down and saw a sight that I will never forget: the top of the canopy, close enough to touch, and through the canopy I could see the top of my pilot's helmet. It took a few moments for this image to sink into my suddenly overloaded brain. This was worse than I ever could have imagined?I was sitting on top of a flying A-6! Pain, confusion, panic, fear and denial surged through my brain and body as a new development occurred to me: I couldn't breathe. My helmet and mask had ripped off my head, and without them, the full force of the wind was hitting me square in the face. It was like trying to drink through a fire hose. I couldn't seem to get a breath of air amidst the wind. My arms were dragging along behind me until I managed to pull both of them into my chest and hold them there. I tried to think for a second as I continued my attempts to breathe. For some reason, it never occurred to me that my pilot would be trying to land. I just never thought about it. I finally decided that the only thing that I could do was eject. (What else could I do?) I grabbed the lower handle with both hands and pulled?it wouldn't budge. With a little more panic induced strength I tried again, but to no avail. The handle was not going to move. I attempted to reach the upper handle but the wind prevented me from getting a hand on it. As a matter of fact, all that I could do was hold my arms into my chest. If either of them slid out into the wind stream, they immediately flailed out behind me, and that was definitely not good. The wind had become physically and emotionally overwhelming. It pounded against my face and body like a huge wall of water that wouldn't stop. The roaring in my ears confused me, the pressure in my mouth prevented me from breathing, and the pounding on my eyes kept me from seeing. Time had lost all meaning. For all I knew, I could have been sitting there for seconds or for hours. I was suffocating, and I couldn't seem to get a breath. I wish I could say that my last thoughts were of my wife, but as I felt myself blacking out, all I said was, "I don't want to die." Someone turned on the lights and I had a funny view of the front end of an A-6, with jagged plexiglas where my half of the canopy was supposed to be. Looking down from the top of the jet, I was surprised to find the plane stopped on the flight deck with about 100 people looking up at me. (I guess I was surprised because I had expected to see the pearly gates and some dead relatives.) My first thought was that we had never taken off, that something had happened before the catapult. Then everything came flooding back into my brain, the wind, the noise and the confusion. As my pilot spoke to me and the medical people swarmed all over me, I realized that I had survived, I was alive. It didn't take me very long to realize that I was a very lucky man, but as I heard more details, I found out how lucky I was. For example, my parachute became entangled in the horizontal stabilizer tight enough to act as a shoulder harness for the trap, but not tight enough to bind the flight controls. If this had not happened, I would have been thrown into the jagged plexiglas during the trap as my shoulder harness had been disconnected from the seat as the parachute deployed. There are many other things that happened, or didn't happen, that allowed me to survive this mishap, some of them only inches away from disaster. These little things, and a s-hot, level-headed pilot who reacted quickly and correctly are the reason that I am alive and flying today. Also, a generous helping of good old-fashioned Irish luck didn't hurt. Lieutenant Mark Baden's (pilot) Account of the Incident: As we finished the brief, my BN (bombardier navigator, Keith Gallagher) told me that it was his birthday and that our recovery would be his 100th trap on the boat. To top it off, we were assigned the plane with my name on the side. As we taxied out of the chocks, I was still feeling a little uneasy about all the recent mishaps. To make myself feel better, I went through the "soft shot/engine failure on takeoff" EPs (emergency procedures), touching each switch or lever as I went through the steps. "At least if something happens right off the bat, I'll be ready," I thought. The first few minutes of the hop were busy. Concentrating on the package-check and consolidation, as well as trying to keep track of my initial customers, dispelled my uneasiness. As we approached mid-cycle, that most boring time in a tanker hop, we kept ourselves occupied with fuel checks. We were keeping a close eye on one drop tank that had quit transferring with about 1,000 pounds of fuel still inside. I had tried going to override on the tank pressurization, but that didn't seem to work. My BN and I discussed the problem. We decided it was probably a stuck float valve. Perhaps some positive and negative G would fix it. We were at 8,000 feet, seven miles abeam the ship, heading aft. I clicked the altitude hold off and added some power to give us a little more G. At 230 knots I pulled the stick back and got the plane five degrees nose up. Then I pushed the stick forward. I got about half a negative G, just enough to float me in the seat. I heard a sharp bang and felt the cockpit instantly depressurize. The roar of the wind followed. I ducked instinctively and looked up at the canopy expecting it to be partly open. Something was wrong. Instead of seeing a two or three inch gap, the canopy bow was flush with the front of the windscreen. My eyes tracked down to the canopy switch. It was up. My scan continued right. Instead of meeting my BN's questioning glance, I saw a pair of legs at my eye level. The right side of the canopy was shattered. I followed the legs up and saw the rest of my BN's body out in the windblast. I watched as his head snapped down and then back up, and his helmet and oxygen mask disappeared. They didn't fly off; they just disappeared. My mind went into fast forward. "What the hell happened?" I wondered. "I hope he ejects all the way. What am I going to do now? I need to slow down." I jerked the throttles to idle and started the speed brakes out. Without stopping, I reached up, de-isolated, and threw the flap lever to the down position. I reached over and grabbed for the IFF selector switch and twisted it to EMER. I was screaming "Slow down! Slow down!" to myself as I looked up at the airspeed indicator and gave another pull back on the throttles and speed brakes. The airspeed was passing 200 knots. I had been looking back over my shoulder at my bombardier the whole time I was doing everything else. I felt a strange combination of fear, helplessness and revulsion as I watched his body slam around in the windblast. After his helmet flew off, his face looked like the people who get sucked out into zero atmosphere in some of the more graphic movies. His eyes were being blasted open, his cheeks and lips were puffed out to an impossible size and the tendons in his neck looked like they were about to bust through his skin as he fought for his life. At 200 knots I saw his arms pulled up in front of his face and he was clawing behind his head. For a moment, I thought he was going to manage to pull the handle and get clear of the plane. I was mentally cheering for him. His arms got yanked down by the blast and I cursed as I checked my radio selector switch to radio 1. "Mayday, Mayday, this is 515. My BN has partially ejected. I need an emergency pull-forward!" The reply was an immediate, "Roger, switch button six." I switched freqs and said (or maybe yelled), "Boss (Air Officer), this is 515. My BN has partially ejected. I need an emergency full-forward!" I slapped the gear handle down and turned all my dumps on (in an effort to get slower, max trap never crossed my mind). The Boss came back in his ever-calm voice and said, "Bring it on in." Checking out the BNAs I watched the indexers move from on-speed to a green chevron I worked the nose to keep the plane as slow as possible and still flying. The plane was holding at around 160 knots and descending. My BN's legs were kicking, which gave me some comfort; he was not dead. But, watching his head and body jerked around in the windblast, being literally beaten to death, made me ill. I had been arcing around in my descent and was still at seven miles. The boss came up and asked if the BN was still with the aircraft. I think that I caused a few cases of nausea when I answered, "Only his legs are still inside the cockpit." It made sense to me, but more than a few people who were listening had visions of two legs and lots of blood and no body. Fortunately, the Boss understood what I meant. As I turned in astern the boat, I called the Boss and told him I was six miles behind the boat. I asked how the deck was coming. He asked if I was setting myself up for a straight-in. I told him "yes." He told me to continue. It was then I noticed that my BN had quit kicking. A chill shot through my body and I looked back at him. What I saw scared me even more. His head was turned to the left and laying on his left shoulder. He was starting to turn grey. Maybe he had broken his neck and was dead. Bringing back a body that was a friend only minutes before was not a comfortable thought. I forced myself not to look at my bombardier after that. The front windscreen started to fog up about four miles behind the boat. I cranked the defog all the way and was getting ready to unstrap my shoulder harness so I could wipe off the glass when it finally started clearing. I saw the boat making a hard left turn. I made some disparaging remarks about the guys on the bridge as I rolled right to chase centerline. I heard CAG paddles (landing signal officer) come up on the radio. He told the captain he would take the winds and that he needed to steady up. My tension eased slightly as I saw mother begin to leave her wake in a straight line. Coming in for landing I was driving it in at about 300 feet. I had been in a slight descent and wasn't willing to add enough power to climb back up to a normal straight-in altitude for fear I would have to accelerate and do more damage to my already battered BN. I watched the ball move up to red and then move slowly up towards the center. Paddles called for some rudder and told me not to go high. My scan went immediately to the 1-wire. I had no intention of passing up any "perfectly good wires." I touched down short of the 1-wire and sucked the throttles to idle. The canopy shards directly in front of the BN's chest looked like a butcher's knife collection. I was very concerned that the deceleration of the trap was going to throw him into the jagged edge of the canopy. I cringed when I didn't immediately feel the tug of the wire. I pulled the stick into my lap as paddles was calling for altitude. I got the nose gear off the deck and then felt the hook catch a wire. I breathed a sigh of relief. Testing the spool-up time of a pair of J-52s as I rolled off the end of the angle was not the way I wanted to end an already bad hop. As soon as I stopped, I set the parking brake and a yellow shirt gave me the signal to kill my No. 2 engine. Immediately after that, I heard a call over the radio that I was chocked. I killed no. 1 and began unstrapping. As soon as I was free of my seat (I somehow remembered to safe it), I reached over and safed the BN's lower handle, undid his lower koch fittings and reached up to try to safe his upper handle. As I was crawling up, I saw that his upper handle was already safed. I started to release his upper koch fittings but decided they were holding him in and I didn't want him to fall against the razor-sharp plexiglas on his side. I got back on my side of the cockpit, held his left arm and hand, and waited for the medical people to arrive. I realized he still was alive when he said, "Am I on the flight deck?" A wave of indescribable relief washed over me as I talked to him while the crash crew worked to truss him up and pull him out of the seat. Once he was clear of the plane, they towed me out of the landing area and parked me. A plane captain bumped the canopy open by hand far enough that I could squeeze out. I headed straight for medical without looking back at the plane. Later, I found that ignorance can be bliss. I didn't know two things while I was flying. First, the BN's parachute had deployed and wrapped itself around the tail section of the plane. Second, the timing release mechanism had fired and released the BN from the seat. The only things keeping him in the plane were the parachute risers holding him against the back of the seat. (See attached file: image001.jpg) (See attached file: image005.jpg) (See attached file: image004.jpg) mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: new AD
> N414C wrote: > Update: Aug. 16 - The FAA has issued tonight an emergency > airworthiness directive (AD) immediately grounding certain aircraft > powered by Lycoming TIO-540 and LTIO-540 engines producing more than > 300 horsepower. THAT hurts! Did you see that Lycoming says up to 8 months to produce replacement cranks? OUCH! I guess that would hit the -J2BD engines that Merlyn Products puts on the Commanders as well. I'd think that most of those conversions fall within the affected window. chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: viri
Chris, 6 virus hits from the list in the last 16 hours. That's 6 times the volume of legitimate messages. My kid managed to open one without the Norton scan. Got fortunate and a scheduled scan picked it up but it was too close to risk again. I use the computer for work and patient files and just cannot afford any more downtime like I had the last time a virus slipped through. Please remove me from the list until everybody gets it out of their address book and this stops. Milt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: viri
Likewise Chris. I had 4 Virus emails this afternoon alone. I wish to be off the list for a little while as well. Maybe Old Crunk still has a copy of that Lynux thingy.....I should stop laughing at him about that.....!!!!! This is just a thought, but what if you deleted everyone, and they could not rejoin untill they swore that the chat group / tech group was deleted from their address book..........Or just let people keep dropping out, and when there are only a few left, and the traffic dies down, then it will be easy to find the culprit!! Sorry, hope to see ya'll in CAE!!!!!! JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: viri
Hmmm, I have an iMac and don't have these problems.... :) Barry (just because they're not related to you doesn't mean you should spread pics of their body parts on the list) Hancock On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 07:00 PM, JETPAUL(at)aol.com wrote: > Likewise Chris. I had 4 Virus emails this afternoon alone. I wish to > be off > the list for a little while as well. Maybe Old Crunk still has a copy > of > that Lynux thingy.....I should stop laughing at him about that.....!!!!! > > This is just a thought, but what if you deleted everyone, and they > could not > rejoin untill they swore that the chat group / tech group was deleted > from > their address book..........Or just let people keep dropping out, and > when > there are only a few left, and the traffic dies down, then it will be > easy to > find the culprit!! > > Sorry, hope to see ya'll in CAE!!!!!! > > JetPaul > > Barry Hancock 9 Leatherwood Court Coto de Caza, CA 92679 cell: (949) 300-5510 fax: (949) 766-0590 radialpower(at)cox.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: viri
Trouble free motoring here in Oz...care of my Titanium G4 Macintosh! Cheers to all Russell On 18/8/02 12:00 PM, "JETPAUL(at)aol.com" wrote: > Likewise Chris. I had 4 Virus emails this afternoon alone. I wish to be off > the list for a little while as well. Maybe Old Crunk still has a copy of > that Lynux thingy.....I should stop laughing at him about that.....!!!!! > > This is just a thought, but what if you deleted everyone, and they could not > rejoin untill they swore that the chat group / tech group was deleted from > their address book..........Or just let people keep dropping out, and when > there are only a few left, and the traffic dies down, then it will be easy to > find the culprit!! > > Sorry, hope to see ya'll in CAE!!!!!! > > JetPaul > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: viri
I will be workig full time next week to get us set up on a message board. Please be patient everyone. I hope to have this done early next week. Jim Metzger Director, Twin Commander Flight Group ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: viri
The virus Emails are easy to spot, besides your up-to-date anti virus software should protect you, and then there is the current BACKUP right? I will remain on the list and state that I am virus negative and my address book is void of Commander Chat names. Tom... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Legg" <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> To: ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 18:51 Subject: Re: viri > Trouble free motoring here in Oz...care of my Titanium G4 Macintosh! > > Cheers to all > > Russell > > On 18/8/02 12:00 PM, "JETPAUL(at)aol.com" wrote: > > > Likewise Chris. I had 4 Virus emails this afternoon alone. I wish to be off > > the list for a little while as well. Maybe Old Crunk still has a copy of > > that Lynux thingy.....I should stop laughing at him about that.....!!!!! > > > > This is just a thought, but what if you deleted everyone, and they could not > > rejoin untill they swore that the chat group / tech group was deleted from > > their address book..........Or just let people keep dropping out, and when > > there are only a few left, and the traffic dies down, then it will be easy to > > find the culprit!! > > > > Sorry, hope to see ya'll in CAE!!!!!! > > > > JetPaul > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Thanks!
Continued thanks for your selfless work, JB! On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 07:49 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: > I will be workig full time next week to get us set up on a message > board. Please be patient everyone. I hope to have this done early > next week. > > Jim Metzger Director, Twin Commander Flight Group > > Barry Hancock Red Stars Inc. www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Sorry for the....
.....underhanded remark in my last post about body parts. HOWEVER, this whole SU-27 crash photo thing has been bugging me. Am I squeemish? No. Did I need to see the photo of pour souls body parts lying on the tarmac, their lives tragically ended. No. By the first three photos it was obvious that several people lost their lives that day. It is sad. I have seen people killed first hand and it's not something anyone needs to be subjected to, nor do photos of such events serve any useful purpose for the general public other than to satisfy the sick impulse of morbidity. What I have a big problem with is that I never asked for these photos to be on my computer. Now, if you had said, Nico, that you had photos of the crash - including one very graphic and disturbing "body parts" photo - I can handle that because then I have a chance to decline. But to wake up one morning and be subjected to this is inappropriate to say the very least. Photos of body parts floating around cyberspace serve solely to disrespect the honor and dignity of the victims and their families. Nico, we have never met, but we have emailed in private and I enjoy your contributions to the list. I suspect if those photos had been of a Commander crash, there never would have been even the slightest thought of posting the graphic photos because the victims are part of the "family." Well, we are all here together, my friends. We are all brothers and sisters, wether we like it or not. It could just as easily be one of us someday, and I, for one, would not be very thrilled if it were. This group is great for it's comraderie and sharing of useful information. Let's keep it that way and keep our dignity intact. Sincerely, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Sorry for the....
In a message dated 8/18/2002 12:19:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, radialpower(at)cox.net writes: > What I have a big problem with is that I never asked for these photos to > be on my computer. Now, if you had said, Nico, that you had photos of > the crash - including one very graphic and disturbing "body parts" > photo What part of squimish did you not understand?? I knew what the pictures would be before I opened them, based on the title; SU-27. I have seen people die also. Some of them in my hands. I don't relish the thought either. However you can see more than this on the nightly news. Hell they can't wait to be the one to bring you the next big plane crash with as many pictures as they can. Have you turned your T.V. off also?? (if you haven't, then at least turn off C.N.N. and Peter Jennings!!!) L.O.L.!!!!! You know the Clinton News Network, and the Left Wing Communist from Canada!!!! Not trying to start anything here!! That's just my .02 worth!! JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Sorry for the....
Careful of what you say about Canada! :) ----- Original Message ----- From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com To: radialpower(at)cox.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 21:44 Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... In a message dated 8/18/2002 12:19:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, radialpower(at)cox.net writes: What I have a big problem with is that I never asked for these photos to be on my computer. Now, if you had said, Nico, that you had photos of the crash - including one very graphic and disturbing "body parts" photo What part of squimish did you not understand?? I knew what the pictures would be before I opened them, based on the title; SU-27. I have seen people die also. Some of them in my hands. I don't relish the thought either. However you can see more than this on the nightly news. Hell they can't wait to be the one to bring you the next big plane crash with as many pictures as they can. Have you turned your T.V. off also?? (if you haven't, then at least turn off C.N.N. and Peter Jennings!!!) L.O.L.!!!!! You know the Clinton News Network, and the Left Wing Communist from Canada!!!! Not trying to start anything here!! That's just my .02 worth!! JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 17, 2002
From: Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net>
Subject: Re: What Next - Hooter Airlines
What Next - Hooter Airlines ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Woodley To: Kevin.bautista(at)hp.com Cc: woodlema(at)intrex.net Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:50 AM Subject: What Next - Hooter Airlines Greetings from wcco.com! Mark Woodley recommends you check out this story from WCCO. Message from Mark Woodley: A friend of mine met the Pres. of Hooters, and told him my idea abour 2 months ago. What Next - Hooter Airlines Will Vanguard Airlines, known for its low fares, and Hooters Girls, known for their high-cut shorts, soon be corporate cousins? Hooters of America Inc. chairman Robert H. Brooks is thinking about buying Vanguard, the Kansas City-based discount carrier that filed for bankruptcy protection and grounded its fleet last month. On Wednesday, a bankruptcy judge told Brooks he can give Vanguard $50,000 per week for the next three weeks to pay a skeleton staff, while Brooks examines the company's books and decides if he wants to buy. A newly formed company called Hooters Air Inc. ... Click here for the rest of this story. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: Chris Haag <chrishaag.foto(at)freesurf.ch>
Subject: virus trouble discussion
Hi Commander boys: Just wanted to let you know that I have always used an iMac since joining the group. And, I never had either of the chat group addresses in the address book anyway. Maybe only because I never participated much. It's a beautiful Sunday morning overhere in Switzerland. Thank god we got away with only much rain about a week ago, but the flooding (Germany, Czech Rep. etc.) could have happened here, or anywhere else. Yesterday was at an excellent 'Airshow' type of event between Berne and Zurich. A stretch of grass was converted into a airfield (during the war the Swiss Air Force flew Morane fighters from that place). About 80 airplanes participated, mostly y.o.m. 1960 or older. Plenty of Bcker Jungmeisters & Jungmanns, Cubs, some Stearmans, Cessna 195's, a YAK18A, a Stinson L-5, a Howard DGA-15P, a polished Ryan PT-22 and an Alouette II chopper . Stars of the day were the Morane D3801, C3603 both with Hispano-Suiza engines and only flying examples. For pix go to: /www.http:/avions-de-legende.com/avdeleg1/D520-D38-C36.htm If any multiple engines could have participated, a Commander would have been the right plane. All was well organised with no mishaps or accident! Super day it was. Enjoy yourself (and get yourself a Mac:-)) Swiss Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: N414C <N414C(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Re: Sorry for the....
Nico, Thanks for the photos. We all get complacent about safety and do not realize the true outcome of an accident. This was a good reminder that it ain't pretty. Your squeamissh warning was more than sufficient to let everyone know the flics would not be pleasant and allow them to delete without viewing. I wonder what Gary L Off would have said. Thanks again . Milt ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:34 AM Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... Friends need to let friends know when things chafe. Didn't mean for things to chafe, folks. I merely shared the horror of what happened and if some don't want to see it then I respect that. There are some folks who relish in the morbid gore of such things and that's sad. By now I know that I don't fall into that category but I see those as real people who put those shoes on and dressed in those clothes that morning - and I grieve for their families. Someone said 'see you later' and never did. Someone said 'I will do it tomorrow' and never could. I am careful when I say things like 'not now' or 'later' or 'wait' having been reminded of our fragile state. That was the message. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Fisher To: JETPAUL(at)aol.com ; radialpower(at)cox.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... Careful of what you say about Canada! :) ----- Original Message ----- From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com To: radialpower(at)cox.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 21:44 Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... In a message dated 8/18/2002 12:19:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, radialpower(at)cox.net writes: What I have a big problem with is that I never asked for these photos to be on my computer. Now, if you had said, Nico, that you had photos of the crash - including one very graphic and disturbing "body parts" photo What part of squimish did you not understand?? I knew what the pictures would be before I opened them, based on the title; SU-27. I have seen people die also. Some of them in my hands. I don't relish the thought either. However you can see more than this on the nightly news. Hell they can't wait to be the one to bring you the next big plane crash with as many pictures as they can. Have you turned your T.V. off also?? (if you haven't, then at least turn off C.N.N. and Peter Jennings!!!) L.O.L.!!!!! You know the Clinton News Network, and the Left Wing Communist from Canada!!!! Not trying to start anything here!! That's just my .02 worth!! JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: John D Williams <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Bugs,bugs, everywhere bugs
Hi Guys, I know that all of us are getting very tired of all the viri floating around the net. I bet I get 4 or 5 virus alerts a day at home and an even larger number at the office. I guess the only salvation is at least the virus software and the "firewalls" are doing their job. My only suggestion is to keep your virus software up to date and that means daily updates. Don't allow any attachments to "auto open". Run virus systems checks on your machines daily. I know it's a pain in the rump but I think it's our only defense against this infected world in which we live. I think the entire "net" in general has become so infected that we'll never see the end to these things. Play safe out there! John Williams PS-I have deleted my address book and run another virus scan as of today. All was well. ----- Original Message ----- From: N414C To: Nico van Niekerk ; Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... Nico, Thanks for the photos. We all get complacent about safety and do not realize the true outcome of an accident. This was a good reminder that it ain't pretty. Your squeamissh warning was more than sufficient to let everyone know the flics would not be pleasant and allow them to delete without viewing. I wonder what Gary L Off would have said. Thanks again . Milt ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:34 AM Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... Friends need to let friends know when things chafe. Didn't mean for things to chafe, folks. I merely shared the horror of what happened and if some don't want to see it then I respect that. There are some folks who relish in the morbid gore of such things and that's sad. By now I know that I don't fall into that category but I see those as real people who put those shoes on and dressed in those clothes that morning - and I grieve for their families. Someone said 'see you later' and never did. Someone said 'I will do it tomorrow' and never could. I am careful when I say things like 'not now' or 'later' or 'wait' having been reminded of our fragile state. That was the message. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Fisher To: JETPAUL(at)aol.com ; radialpower(at)cox.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... Careful of what you say about Canada! :) ----- Original Message ----- From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com To: radialpower(at)cox.net ; commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 21:44 Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... In a message dated 8/18/2002 12:19:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, radialpower(at)cox.net writes: What I have a big problem with is that I never asked for these photos to be on my computer. Now, if you had said, Nico, that you had photos of the crash - including one very graphic and disturbing "body parts" photo What part of squimish did you not understand?? I knew what the pictures would be before I opened them, based on the title; SU-27. I have seen people die also. Some of them in my hands. I don't relish the thought either. However you can see more than this on the nightly news. Hell they can't wait to be the one to bring you the next big plane crash with as many pictures as they can. Have you turned your T.V. off also?? (if you haven't, then at least turn off C.N.N. and Peter Jennings!!!) L.O.L.!!!!! You know the Clinton News Network, and the Left Wing Communist from Canada!!!! Not trying to start anything here!! That's just my .02 worth!! JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: bye bye
Howdy all. Okay - here's the scoop: For whatever reason, we havn't eliminated the viruii which means that I need to be proactive to clean up the lists. I'm going to remove the two Commander lists and create two NEW lists with different names. Each of you needs to send me a brief note stating that you want re-subscribed and that you won't bookmark or store the new address that I'll send to you. (okay - I'll accept that you're running a MAC or Linux as a good excuse as well :-) I've already received quite a few replies so I'll move you folks over. Towards the end of the week I'll send out a final notice to the old lists, then shut them down. We've been very fortunate that these two lists have lasted this long without being spammed into oblivion. Just time for a change of address to shake the junk out. Hopefully the lists are still valuable enough to y'all. This should be very painless. If you have any questions, just drop me a note. your humble servant, Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: bye bye
Chris, Re-suscribe me please and thanks for your work rodd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 12:35 PM Subject: bye bye > Howdy all. > Okay - here's the scoop: > For whatever reason, we havn't eliminated the viruii which > means that I need to be proactive to clean up the lists. > > I'm going to remove the two Commander lists and create two NEW > lists with different names. Each of you needs to send me a > brief note stating that you want re-subscribed and that you > won't bookmark or store the new address that I'll send to > you. (okay - I'll accept that you're running a MAC or Linux > as a good excuse as well :-) > > I've already received quite a few replies so I'll move you > folks over. Towards the end of the week I'll send out a > final notice to the old lists, then shut them down. We've > been very fortunate that these two lists have lasted this long > without being spammed into oblivion. Just time for a change > of address to shake the junk out. Hopefully the lists are > still valuable enough to y'all. This should be very painless. > If you have any questions, just drop me a note. > > your humble servant, > Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: Derek Monk <britmonk(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Bugs,bugs, everywhere bugs
Hi Y'all, Fortunately I have a Mac so no problems yet. I have had several e-mails which were obviously virus carriers and easily deleted. My anti virus software did not detect them so they didn't get to my OS. However, Macs are not immune. I have been infected in the past. The only reason we don't get many attacks is that the Mac market is too small for most virus terrorists to bother with. Microsoft's business practices probably contribute to the continual urge of these people to strike at Windows operators. I fully expect Unix/Linux/Mac OS X users to experience increasing virus attacks. I'm staying with OS 9 for the near future because of this, You have my sympathy, Derek Monk John D Williams wrote: > Hi Guys, > > > > I know that all of us are getting very tired of all the viri floating > around the net. I bet I get 4 or 5 virus alerts a day at home and an > even larger number at the office. I guess the only salvation is at > least the virus software and the "firewalls" are doing their job. My > only suggestion is to keep your virus software up to date and that > means daily updates. Don't allow any attachments to "auto open". Run > virus systems checks on your machines daily. I know it's a pain in the > rump but I think it's our only defense against this infected world in > which we live. I think the entire "net" in general has become so > infected that we'll never see the end to these things. Play safe out > there! > > > > John Williams > > PS-I have deleted my address book and run another virus scan as of > today. All was well. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From:N414C > > To: Nico van Niekerk ; > > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 9:34 AM > > Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... > > > Nico, > > > > Thanks for the photos. > > We all get complacent about safety and do not realize the true > outcome of an accident. This was a good reminder that it ain't pretty. > > Your squeamissh warning was more than sufficient to let everyone > know the flics would not be pleasant and allow them to delete > without viewing. > > I wonder what Gary L Off would have said. > > Thanks again . > > > > Milt > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Nico van Niekerk <mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> > > To: commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com > > > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:34 AM > > Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... > > > Friends need to let friends know when things chafe. Didn't > mean for things to chafe, folks. I merely shared the horror of > what happened and if some don't want to see it then I respect > that. There are some folks who relish in the morbid gore of > such things and that's sad. By now I know that I don't fall > into that category but I see those as real people who put > those shoes on and dressed in those clothes that morning - and > I grieve for their families. Someone said 'see you later' and > never did. Someone said 'I will do it tomorrow' and never could. > > I am careful when I say things like 'not now' or 'later' or > 'wait' having been reminded of our fragile state. > > That was the message. > > Nico > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tom Fisher <mailto:tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> > > To:JETPAUL(at)aol.com ; > radialpower(at)cox.net ; > commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com > > > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 10:09 PM > > Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... > > > Careful of what you say about Canada! > > :) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From:JETPAUL(at)aol.com > > To:radialpower(at)cox.net ; > commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com > > > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 21:44 > > Subject: Re: Sorry for the.... > > > In a message dated 8/18/2002 12:19:27 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, radialpower(at)cox.net > writes: > > >> What I have a big problem with is that I never asked >> for these photos to >> be on my computer. Now, if you had said, Nico, that >> you had photos of >> the crash - including one very graphic and disturbing >> "body parts" >> photo > > > What part of squimish did you not understand?? I knew > what the pictures would be before I opened them, based > on the title; SU-27. > > I have seen people die also. Some of them in my > hands. I don't relish the thought either. However > you can see more than this on the nightly news. Hell > they can't wait to be the one to bring you the next > big plane crash with as many pictures as they can. > Have you turned your T.V. off also?? (if you haven't, > then at least turn off C.N.N. and Peter Jennings!!!) > L.O.L.!!!!! You know the Clinton News Network, and > the Left Wing Communist from Canada!!!! > > Not trying to start anything here!! > > That's just my .02 worth!! > > JetPaul > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: bye bye
Nico van Niekerk wrote: > > Subscribe me, Chris. Done. I'll be sending out further details to everyone in a few days. chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: viri
All, There is ONLY ONE certain way to not expose yourself to the viri floating around, don't be on the net. Apple is not excluded, it is just that MS is the majority, Apple and Linux haven't received all that much attention --- YET. That leaves anti virus programs, it must be up to date ( say check every hour for an update) and must stop everything on the way in. Don't depend on manual scans etc. I use Norton, the only time I have had a problem, it was my finger trouble, now I know better. Recent tests have shown some to be better than Norton, and the other common big name anti virus programs, one being Eset NOD32, the only web address I have is an Australian one, but I understand it is a US product < www.nod32.com.au> In these recent tests the only other perfect score was DialogueScience Dr. Web. Cutting yourself off until everybody else gets their act into gear just isn't going to happen, in reality the self replicating nasties around --- most people don't even know they are infected, much less how to get rid of a virus. Regards, Bill Hamilton. >Likewise Chris. I had 4 Virus emails this afternoon alone. I wish to be off >the list for a little while as well. Maybe Old Crunk still has a copy of >that Lynux thingy.....I should stop laughing at him about that.....!!!!! > >This is just a thought, but what if you deleted everyone, and they could not >rejoin untill they swore that the chat group / tech group was deleted from >their address book..........Or just let people keep dropping out, and when >there are only a few left, and the traffic dies down, then it will be easy to >find the culprit!! > >Sorry, hope to see ya'll in CAE!!!!!! > >JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 18, 2002
From: Mark Woodley <woodlema(at)intrex.net>
Subject: Re: viri
I actually think that Sophos is one of the best ones for virus detection. Notron is a monster when it comes to having a heavy footprint on your system. Sophos is very light and not obtrusive on the operations of the computer even during the real time file scans. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> To: ; Cc: Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 9:46 PM Subject: Re: viri > All, > There is ONLY ONE certain way to not expose yourself to the viri floating > around, don't be on the net. Apple is not excluded, it is just that MS is > the majority, Apple and Linux haven't received all that much attention --- YET. > > That leaves anti virus programs, it must be up to date ( say check every > hour for an update) and must stop everything on the way in. Don't depend on > manual scans etc. I use Norton, the only time I have had a problem, it was > my finger trouble, now I know better. > > Recent tests have shown some to be better than Norton, and the other common > big name anti virus programs, one being Eset NOD32, the only web address I > have is an Australian one, but I understand it is a US product < > www.nod32.com.au> > In these recent tests the only other perfect score was DialogueScience Dr. > Web. > > Cutting yourself off until everybody else gets their act into gear just > isn't going to happen, in reality the self replicating nasties around --- > most people don't even know they are infected, much less how to get rid of > a virus. > > Regards, > Bill Hamilton. > > > >Likewise Chris. I had 4 Virus emails this afternoon alone. I wish to be off > >the list for a little while as well. Maybe Old Crunk still has a copy of > >that Lynux thingy.....I should stop laughing at him about that.....!!!!! > > > >This is just a thought, but what if you deleted everyone, and they could not > >rejoin untill they swore that the chat group / tech group was deleted from > >their address book..........Or just let people keep dropping out, and when > >there are only a few left, and the traffic dies down, then it will be easy to > >find the culprit!! > > > >Sorry, hope to see ya'll in CAE!!!!!! > > > >JetPaul > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 19, 2002
From: TILLMAN333(at)aol.com <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
Subject: RESEND PHOTOS
Nico, As a CAP Search and Rescue Pilot, I must admire your form of communication. Usually after viewing photos with other pilots, the question as to what happened occurs. This allows for a full description as to the nature of the loss. Without the photos, the description of the accident seems in vain. We all have access to the NTSB files and other printed descriptions... It appears with the replies you've received, the photos made an impression. Please resend to my address, as I have a CAP meeting this week and we will be discussing why pilots crash. Thanks, Gary Tillman www.flysafeinsurance.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2002
From: Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
Subject: Re-Subscribe
Done, GS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2002
From: Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: [Thankfulness- do not delete without reading!]
> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Reminder
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far (and especially for the kind words of encouragement as well!). So far a little over 1/3 of the list members have responded, promised to NOT add the new listname to their address books, and have been subscribed. If you havn't yet done so and you wish to continue to be subscribed to the list, please drop me a note asap! Both of the old lists are still online and working, but I think I'm going to take them down this weekend and bring up the new lists. I'm pretty confident that we'll shake out the virus problem this time. thanks again everyone! chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2002
From: Phil Stubbs <br549phil(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: resubscribe
Please resubcribe, thanks, Phil Stubbs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2002
From: Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Reminder
Chris; Please put me back on the list. Don > [Original Message] > From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> > To: > Date: 8/20/02 5:42:45 PM > Subject: Reminder > > Thanks to everyone who has responded so far (and especially > for the kind words of encouragement as well!). So far a > little over 1/3 of the list members have responded, promised > to NOT add the new listname to their address books, and have > been subscribed. If you havn't yet done so and you wish to > continue to be subscribed to the list, please drop me a > note asap! > Both of the old lists are still online and working, but I > think I'm going to take them down this weekend and bring > up the new lists. I'm pretty confident that we'll shake > out the virus problem this time. > > thanks again everyone! > chris --- Lowell Girod --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net --- Twin Commander 560 E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: NEW MEMBER
HI KIDS. Please welcome a new TCFG member, Mr. Ron Hink of Ft. Lauderdale, FL. Ron owns a drop dead georgious 500A/b. It has ALL the toys including all Shrike mods, new glass, one piece instument panel and winglets. AND, it is TURBOED!! To see this beauty visit www.pioneerone.net Welcome Ron, Hope you will make the flyin!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NEW MEMBER
Hi JimBob & Hi Ron! Welcome aboard Ron!! Wow! Serial 903 certainly has all the mods! Dec79 - Rayjay turbochargers Dec79 - Miller nose Dec79 - front cabin door Nov96 - 'Shrike' tail cone Nov96 - 'Shrike' vertical tip byMay98 - Commander-Aero winglets Ron, if you let me know the date the winglets were installed, I'll send you a copy of your Commander's history. This has 71 records, one with almost the most on my database!! Only three others, serials 119 (with 75); 269(with 77) and 639(with 75) have more!! See you at the Fly-In? Best Regards, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com ; N414C(at)cableone.net ; Commanderchat(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Cc: Commandertech(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:05 PM Subject: NEW MEMBER HI KIDS. Please welcome a new TCFG member, Mr. Ron Hink of Ft. Lauderdale, FL. Ron owns a drop dead georgious 500A/b. It has ALL the toys including all Shrike mods, new glass, one piece instument panel and winglets. AND, it is TURBOED!! To see this beauty visit www.pioneerone.net Welcome Ron, Hope you will make the flyin!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Shutting down NOW
Howdy all. I've decided to accelerate the shutdown of the chatlists since we've had a BUNCH of viruses today. Anyway, this will be the last posting to the commanderchat and commandertech lists. I will be bringing the new lists online over the next few hours and will send out notification via those lists as soon as everythings up and running. Thanks to everyone who's stuck around (and my appologies for those who've bailed out due to the problem). If you've not yet confirmed that you want on the new lists and that you're virus free and won't add the new listnames to you address book, please drop me a note. See y'all on the other side! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Welcome BACK!
Friends, Welcome to the commander chatlists - version 2.0 :-) The new addresses are: commandertech2@c2-tech.com and commanderchat2@c2-tech.com Assuming that nobody EVER saves these addresses in their email address book, we should be virus-free from this point on. Should anyone disobey this law, the redneck Commander contingent will be sent to your location without any guidance to "resolve" the problem . I am sorry to have not responded in detail to all the hundreds of emails over the last week, but I wanted to get this done before more members gave up. If you get a few straggling notes from the old lists, just ignore. I need to make sure all the notifications go out before shutting it down. I have added each of you who responded to BOTH lists unless specific choices were expressed. Should you desire to be removed from the "chat" list, just drop me a note and I'll take care of it. Again, thanks for bearing with the viruses. It's been a REAL pain. Each time a virus goes to the group, I also received aprox 100 error messages. I looked in my virus tracker folder and noted that I've received over 6000 virus email responses over the last few months. Lets NOT do this again, shall we? Looking forward to seeing many of you at the flyin next month! Cheers, Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2002
From: Dave <vinophile(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bugs,bugs, everywhere bugs
Hi All If everybody would use a web based email client for their chat list there would never be a virus problem. The only time there is a problem is when viri are invited in by opening a file or using Outlook or something similar. Try Hotmail or yahoo Mail..... Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2002
From: ProgSearch(at)aol.com <ProgSearch(at)aol.com>
Subject: Barry Coleman
I am trying to reach Barry Coleman does anyone have his email address? Thanks, Kevin Coons ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2002
From: Todd Hindmarsh <todd(at)inpnet.org>
Subject: AC680 maintenance
Hi, I have an AC680, of the '58 vintage. Recently we flew from Provo to Fresno. After the return trip landing and cool-down I tried shutting off the left engine by pulling the fuel mixture to the idle/cutoff position and nothing happened. The engine kept on running like a champ. Does anyone know of a good mechanic that can take a look at this problem and get it fixed? One of the generators also gave up the ghost and I need that fixed as well. Thanks, Todd ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: AC680 maintenance
>tried shutting off the left engine by pulling the fuel mixture >to the idle/cutoff position andnothing happened. >Does anyone know of a good mechanic that can take a look at >this problem and get it fixed? Todd, On the side of the carb, there is a cone-shaped device which is pushed in by an arm. It should be actually marked "idle cuttoff" on the side. There is a mark on the arm and a little pointer. Pull the mixture and see if the pointer lines up with the mark. (this is confusing to explain, but will be very obvious when you look at it). You may just need to adjust the mixture control arm to assure that it reaches the cuttoff point. If you DO adjust it, make sure that it's still going to full rich also. If this isn't the problem, the carb probably has a leak in one of the many diaphrams. If so, send it to a shop who really specializes in Pressure carbs. I suggest Mikes Aircraft Fuel Metering in Tulsa, OK. Tell him I sent ya. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2002
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AC680 maintenance
In a message dated 08/23/02 13:38:11 Pacific Daylight Time, todd(at)inpnet.org writes: > Does anyone know of a good mechanic that can take a look at this problem and > get it fixed? > > One of the generators also gave up the ghost and I need that fixed as well. Todd, If you're based in Provo (and even if you're not) you need to talk to Morris Kernick. His cell phone is 321-403-8813. Capt. JimBob, (our very own) is also an excellent resource for you, as he maintains and flies a 680-E. I want to make one comment, since you mentioned an engine that would not shut down and a generator problem all in one email. I advocate turning the generators OFF prior to engine shut down as I've seen the reverse current relays (located in the nose of most of that vintage model) weld themselves shut and cause the generator to "motor" the engine during shut down. Had it happen to me: the engine kind of "dieseled" for a while and then quit. Upon exiting the plane there was a heavy smell of electrical smoke around the plane. Pulled the cowlings down and found a cherry red (hot) generator ... burnt to a crisp in its valliant attempt to turn a GS0-480 all by itself. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: AC680 maintenance
Are you sure you're not masking a problem with this procedure??? bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:31 AM Subject: Re: AC680 maintenance In a message dated 08/23/02 13:38:11 Pacific Daylight Time, todd(at)inpnet.org writes: Does anyone know of a good mechanic that can take a look at this problem and get it fixed? One of the generators also gave up the ghost and I need that fixed as well. Todd, If you're based in Provo (and even if you're not) you need to talk to Morris Kernick. His cell phone is 321-403-8813. Capt. JimBob, (our very own) is also an excellent resource for you, as he maintains and flies a 680-E. I want to make one comment, since you mentioned an engine that would not shut down and a generator problem all in one email. I advocate turning the generators OFF prior to engine shut down as I've seen the reverse current relays (located in the nose of most of that vintage model) weld themselves shut and cause the generator to "motor" the engine during shut down. Had it happen to me: the engine kind of "dieseled" for a while and then quit. Upon exiting the plane there was a heavy smell of electrical smoke around the plane. Pulled the cowlings down and found a cherry red (hot) generator ... burnt to a crisp in its valliant attempt to turn a GS0-480 all by itself. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2002
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AC680 maintenance
In a message dated 08/24/02 05:29:55 Pacific Daylight Time, w.bow(at)att.net writes: > Are you sure you're not masking a problem with this procedure??? Good point. OK. Never mind. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: [560F brakes]
This is forwarded to someone not on the list. If you can help him, please contact him directly. If you reply to him, don't reply to the group also as you'll be disclosing our new address to someone who hasn't been verified as "clean"... Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: test info
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: I'LL BE GONE
HI KIDS... I just thought I would let everybody know that I will be out of touch for a week. I will be in SEA doing a haul out of my boat. Since it will be out of it's slip, I wont have access to a phone. If you need to contact me, call 360-835-1090 and leave a message. I will get my messages each evening and will retune the call. I had several really nice flight lately. I just got back from taking some air-to-air photos of a friend of mines navion. He is the pres of the Navion club and just sold this airplane. We also flew last night but had a double camera failure and got nothing for out trouble. Did much better tonight. Hoe all is well in "commanderland" capt jimbob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Repeat of new news and instructions
For all the recent additions.... chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Colemill "Super 300" MTOW
Hi, Any Model 500A Commanders which were modified to the Collegial "Super 300", had an increase in MOW to 6,530 pounds. In relation to the horsepower/gross weight figures for the Models 500A and 500B, this doesn't appear to be realistic, and a figure more like 6,950 pounds seems to be more so. Now, I know the following figures are not how these matters are arrived at, but they serve to illustrate the basic point, where "Factor" = MOW divided by Horsepower: Model MOW Horsepower "Factor" 500A 6,000 260 23.08 500B 6,750 290 23.28 Super 300 6,530 300 21.77 Horsepower, of course, is per side. I think Morris Kernick may have an idea why this is so. If anybody can reach him, I'd be obliged if they could pose the question to him also. Any help on this will be much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2002
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Colemill "Super 300" MTOW
In a message dated 08/26/02 13:03:11 Pacific Daylight Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: > In relation to the horsepower/gross weight figures for the Models 500A and > 500B, > this doesn't appear to be realistic, and a figure more like 6,950 pounds > seems to be more so. > Using logic, Sir Barry? In relation to aviation? Have you gone daft, Man? The answer is not in formulas or engineering. It's economics of getting to market. By allowing a nominal gross weight increase, Colemill was able to get the STC quickly and not go through any recertification or major test flying. Notice that the Mr. RPM conversions state "equal to or better than original certification (performance) data?" -- or some such phrase -- That was for esentially the same reason. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Colemill "Super 300" MTOW
Barry Collman wrote: > Now, I know the following figures are not how these matters are arrived at, but > they serve to illustrate the basic point, where "Factor" = MOW divided by > Horsepower: > Any help on this will be much appreciated. Barry, For light twins weighing more than 6000lbs but less than 12500, the gross weight is set by single engine climb performance (unless limited by structural issues). The airplane must demonstrate single engine climb performance at 5000 ft with the inop engine feathered and in a clean configuration. The rate of climb required is 0.027 * Vso squared. A Shrike, for example, has a Vso of 63kts, so must climb at 0.027 * 63 2 or 107 fpm. The actual "book" number is 129fpm so you can't exceed the gross weight by much at all with the existing HP. (I assume Rockwell built in a slight fudge factor). Anyway, engine HP alone doesn't tell the whole story. Variations in nacelle airflow with different engines, variations in prop efficiency, and differences in how the engines are actually rated all figure in to the actual "thrust" potentially generated which affects the single engine ROC. Hope this helps. Chris Schuermann ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Colemill "Super 300" MTOW
Keith wrote: >By allowing a nominal gross weight increase, Colemill was >able to get the STC quickly and not go through any >recertification or major test flying. Very good point. I've seen a number of twin mods which state "Gross weight increase pending". You CAN usually slip minor performances increases under the radar without having to re-do all the certification testing. Look at Merlyn's 350hp STC for the Shrike. They were able to acquire a 2050lb gw INCREASE for the Shrike. If you grind that number through your calculation Barry, it will break all your assumptions. With the extra hp and the turbos ability to hold it at altitude, they pulled off a HUGE increase. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Colemill "Super 300" MTOW
Hi Chris........... ............and all the others who replied. Just shows how illogical mere historians can be, when they have no aircraft engineering knowledge! Single-engine climb performance. Ah yes, I think that's what Morris mentioned when I posed the question to him at a Fly-In about 4 years ago. Keith says: "By allowing a nominal Gross weight increase, Colemill was able to get the STC quickly and not go through any recertfication or major test flying." It just seems strange (to my untrained eye) that Colemill didn't pursue a further increase. Surely, that would have made the STC more attractive. Perhaps the additional cost vs. how many Models 500A were around was the deciding factor. Oh well, thanks again guys! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:46 PM Subject: Re: Colemill "Super 300" MTOW | Barry Collman wrote: | > Now, I know the following figures are not how these matters are arrived at, but | > they serve to illustrate the basic point, where "Factor" = MOW divided by | > Horsepower: | | > Any help on this will be much appreciated. | | | Barry, | For light twins weighing more than 6000lbs but less than 12500, | the gross weight is set by single engine climb performance (unless | limited by structural issues). The airplane must demonstrate | single engine climb performance at 5000 ft with the inop engine | feathered and in a clean configuration. The rate of climb required | is 0.027 * Vso squared. | A Shrike, for example, has a Vso of 63kts, so must climb at | 0.027 * 63 2 or 107 fpm. The actual "book" number is 129fpm | so you can't exceed the gross weight by much at all with the | existing HP. (I assume Rockwell built in a slight fudge factor). | | Anyway, engine HP alone doesn't tell the whole story. Variations | in nacelle airflow with different engines, variations in prop | efficiency, and differences in how the engines are actually rated | all figure in to the actual "thrust" potentially generated which | affects the single engine ROC. | | Hope this helps. | Chris Schuermann ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2002
From: Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: Colemill conversion
Hello all, I am glad the subject was brought up. I have been wondering how the Colemill compares to the 500B as far as climb, speed and weight carrying ability. I have heard every thing from it just makes more noise and burns more gas to there is no difference. I sure do like the things I have learned here. Jim A N444BD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Colemill conversion
Jim Addington wrote: > I have been wondering how the Colemill compares to the 500B I'm not trying to start a brand war, but I will share an anecdotal comparison with you.... There is a shop here in Tulsa called Ullrich Aviation which is owned and operated by a gent who builds some of the finest engines around in my opinion. He finished the IO-540K for my Viking just about the same time he was finishing up an IO-520B. Both of these engines are rated at 300hp. Both were run on the same day with the same barometric pressure, temperature, and humidity. My IO-540 turned the same test club almost 200 RPM faster than the IO-520. I questioned Sandy about that and he replied that the 300hp Lyc is simply a "stronger" engine than the 300hp Continental. It would be a very interesting comparison to put a 290hp narrow deck Lycoming off a 500B and a 300hp Cont. of a Colemill on a test stand with the authorized props and compare static thrust.... If y'all ever want to hear some _serious_ noise, go to a shop that's test running an IO-720 on a stand with straight pipes ! WOW ! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2002
From: Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: USCG AUX
Hello all: Some of the group might be interested in the USCG AUX. Effective 21AUG02 they are paying $194.00 per hour for twins 250HP or more. You pick which week ends you want to fly and which lakes if you are inland you want to fly. As owner you do all the flying or you can pick some one else. You do have to have 250 hrs PIC to fly what is called logistics flights or 500 hrs PIC to fly search missions or saftety patrols. Most flights are 4 hrs but you can fly shorter if you like. to keep your qualification you have to fly 12 hrs every 6 months, 6 has to be for the AUX and 6 hrs can be for anything. Any one interested can email me at jtaddington(at)charter.net or call me at 940 566-2651 or 940 382-3150. I have had a blast doing this now for 3 yrs. Jim A N444BD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2002
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: USCG AUX
I'm in day 2 of a major search in the South West mountains for a float plane with 3 souls on board, I sure wish I had my Commander! Anyone want to come up to Vancouver and lend their Commander to Search and Rescue operations? Approx 4 to 6 hours of Revenue per day at (now I know you Americans won't like this) multiply .626 times the total horsepower of your aircraft that is the hourly rate (in Canadian dollars) for search aircraft. Tom Fisher Zone Commander Civil Air Search And Rescue South West Zone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> To: Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 07:57 Subject: USCG AUX > Hello all: > > Some of the group might be interested in the USCG AUX. Effective 21AUG02 > they are paying $194.00 per hour for twins 250HP or more. You pick which > week ends you want to fly and which lakes if you are inland you want to fly. > As owner you do all the flying or you can pick some one else. You do have to > have 250 hrs PIC to fly what is called logistics flights or 500 hrs PIC to > fly search missions or saftety patrols. Most flights are 4 hrs but you can > fly shorter if you like. to keep your qualification you have to fly 12 hrs > every 6 months, 6 has to be for the AUX and 6 hrs can be for anything. Any > one interested can email me at jtaddington(at)charter.net or call me at 940 > 566-2651 or 940 382-3150. I have had a blast doing this now for 3 yrs. > > Jim A > N444BD > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Mayday
Anybody got a source for the dreaded Goodyear Brake pads? Bilbo Aero Commander 500A N78379 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2002
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Mayday
In a message dated 08/28/02 14:43:02 Pacific Daylight Time, w.bow(at)att.net writes: > > Anybody got a source for the dreaded Goodyear Brake pads? > Morris Kernick had a bunch a few years ago. May still His cell phone # is 321-403-8813 Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2002
From: Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: USCG AUX
Subject: USCG AUX Hello All: I have some more information on the Coast Guard AUX. I do not have the phone numbers for the different flotills but the number for New Orleans which can give you the proper place to call is 1 800 524 8835. I wish I could Call each of you but my phone bill would be off the scale. I would be glad to talk to any one interested if you want to call me at 940 566 2651. Jim Addington N444BD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2002
From: mrp37(at)mindspring.com <mrp37(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: USCG AUX
Try this. http://www.cgaux.org/cgauxweb/getzip.html Just punch in your zipcode. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: solo
Today, Pam, my wife soloed. I was do proud, I was moved to tears.:>) Bilbo Aero Commander 500A N78379 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: solo
> Bow wrote: > > Today, Pam, my wife soloed. VERY Cool! Please pass along our congrats to Pam. I still clearly remember when Kim soloed - it was a very big moment in her life. I think she was in shock for about a week! :-) Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2002
From: Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
Subject: Re: solo
And I bet Pam's thoughts were: " Bless them all, Bless them all, Bless the long, the short, and the tall Bless that instructor who taught me to fly, Sent me to solo and left me to die" Give Pam our Congratulation. Clear Prop!!, Glenn Sneed Denver, CO ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2002
From: Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Solo II
Bow, Many congradulations to Pam for her accomplishment. I know well your feelings about the event. My boy soloed last week, a couple of days after his 16th birthday. Yes sir..........I know how you felt. rodd ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Solo II
Congratulations to Pam. My wife never wanted to fly, so I kept the autopilot on while she 'navigated' and 'held the stick' until she found out she wasn't that good. That kind of cooked my goose. Oh, well. I envy you both. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: Rodd Browne To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 12:25 PM Subject: Solo II Bow, Many congradulations to Pam for her accomplishment. I know well your feelings about the event. My boy soloed last week, a couple of days after his 16th birthday. Yes sir..........I know how you felt. rodd ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: USCG AUX
What does the #$% &* IRS say about this kind of "work"? bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: <mrp37(at)mindspring.com> To: Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 8:54 PM Subject: Re: FW: USCG AUX > Try this. http://www.cgaux.org/cgauxweb/getzip.html > > Just punch in your zipcode. > > Mark > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: solo
In a message dated 8/30/02 10:29:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, w.bow(at)att.net writes: > Today, Pam, my wife soloed. > > I was do proud, I was moved to tears.:>) > > [Unable to display image] Bilbo > Aero Commander 500A > N78379 SO COOL!! CONGRATULATIONS......jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: [FLY-IN]
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: FLY-IN]
I plan on being there, folks, but I may have to stop at the fly-in on my way back from overseas, so a bit of planning has to go into getting things right. I will send in my stuff on Tuesday. Looking forward meeting the faces behind the words... :-) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 2:58 PM Subject: [Fwd: FLY-IN] > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: FLY-IN]
In a message dated 8/31/02 7:08:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: > I plan on being there, folks, but I may have to stop at the fly-in on my way > back from overseas, so a bit of planning has to go into getting things > right. I will send in my stuff on Tuesday. Looking forward meeting the > faces > behind the words... :-) > Nico THANKS!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 02, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: FLY IN AUCTION
HI KIDS.... Just a note to let you know that Gary Tillman will ounce again bless us with his presence at this years flyin and seve as our auctioneer. Those of you who were at last years event know how much fun this is (Better sit on your hands!!) He suggested that each attendee bring something from their state to auction off with the proceeds going to my gas fund!! OK, he really said we should give the $$ to Angle Flight. What a great and fun idea. So, you will all be bringing something, right!! thanks .....jb PS get those reg. forms in!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 02, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Angel flight
OK, he really said we should give the $$ to Angle Flight. What a great and fun idea. So, you will all be bringing something, right!! thanks .....jb Is that an angles fight or Angel Flight? Sorry, it's the wannabe fighter pilot coming out in me.... :) As a member of Angel Flight, I think it's a wonderful thought. I urge anyone interested in helping those less fortunate to consider contributing your time and aircraft to Angel Flight missions. You can contact me directly for more info. Cheers, Barry On Monday, September 2, 2002, at 09:09 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: > HI KIDS.... > > Just a note to let you know that Gary Tillman will ounce > again bless us with his presence at this years flyin and seve as our > auctioneer. Those of you who were at last years event know how much > fun this is (Better sit on your hands!!) He suggested that each > attendee bring something from their state to auction off with the > proceeds going to my gas fund!! > PS get those reg. forms in!! jb > > Barry Hancock All Red Star (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Angel flight
Also, as an Angel Flight member and pilot, I encourage your support of a worthwhile organization. If you remember, Angel Flight planes were just about the only GA planes flying immediately after the 9/11 attacks. They provide a great service. Randy Dettmer 680F/N6253X ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry W. Hancock To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:25 PM Subject: Angel flight OK, he really said we should give the $$ to Angle Flight. What a great and fun idea. So, you will all be bringing something, right!! thanks .....jb Is that an angles fight or Angel Flight? Sorry, it's the wannabe fighter pilot coming out in me.... :) As a member of Angel Flight, I think it's a wonderful thought. I urge anyone interested in helping those less fortunate to consider contributing your time and aircraft to Angel Flight missions. You can contact me directly for more info. Cheers, Barry On Monday, September 2, 2002, at 09:09 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: HI KIDS.... Just a note to let you know that Gary Tillman will ounce again bless us with his presence at this years flyin and seve as our auctioneer. Those of you who were at last years event know how much fun this is (Better sit on your hands!!) He suggested that each attendee bring something from their state to auction off with the proceeds going to my gas fund!! PS get those reg. forms in!! jb Barry Hancock All Red Star (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Just figures...
...called my local USCGAUX office today. They've been "stand down for a couple years now"...but are trying to reactivate it. Just my luck! Just another reason NOT to live in California. Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Robert Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Just figures...
How funny, meanwhile, I've got options in Texas and Oklahoma...not exactly on the coast. This part of OK/TX anyway... > Just another reason NOT to live in California. > > > Barry > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Just figures...
Robert Bullock wrote: > > How funny, meanwhile, I've got options in Texas and Oklahoma Well, come on down y'all. OK isn't that bad.. (okay, western OK is pretty bad...) Chris (in Tulsa) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Just figures...
I have 2 brothers who live in Kansas. And according to them the reason the wind blows so hard out of the north is that it sucks so bad in O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, OKLAHOMA YAOOO!!! Pardon me, I think I broke into a musical moment. bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Just figures... > Robert Bullock wrote: > > > > How funny, meanwhile, I've got options in Texas and Oklahoma > > Well, come on down y'all. OK isn't that bad.. (okay, western > OK is pretty bad...) > > Chris (in Tulsa) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Just figures...
Bow wrote: > reason the > wind blows so hard out of the north is that it sucks so bad in > O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A ha. It can get a bit breezy for sure. 20kts is "light and variable". On the plus side, avgas is $1.74/gal here ($1.49 at the self-serve) and hangars are available and run between $75 (port-a-port) and $160 (lighted, electrical, bi-fold doors, etc) for a single and up to $280/month for a big, heated job with a bathroom suitable for a Commander + misc. If you can stand the weather, it's a cheap place to live. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: mrp37(at)mindspring.com <mrp37(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Just figures...
Wow Chris, We call that a home here in South Carolina. See you in Columbia(CAE) Mark Poulin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: USCG AUX
Hello all: If everyone that is interested in the USCG AUX will once more, because of my old timers, tell me where you live I will try to get you more information on a flotilla with aviation some where near where you live. If you can, send it to me by in the morning, as I am going to make some calls tomorrow and will see if I can get what you all need. Jim N444BD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Robert Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Angel flight
Already a member, just need to do some flights. Of course, I've only got a 182, so it's not as prestigious as a twin... > Also, as an Angel Flight member and pilot, I encourage your support of a worthwhile organization. If you remember, Angel Flight planes were just about the only GA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Angel flight
Your contribution is not judged by the ship you operate, rather the time you invest.... Cheers, Barry On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, at 07:37 PM, Robert Bullock wrote: > Already a member, just need to do some flights. Of course, I've only > got a 182, so it's not as prestigious as a twin... > >> Also, as an Angel Flight member and pilot, I encourage your support of >> a worthwhile organization. If you remember, Angel Flight planes were >> just about the only GA > Also, as an Angel Flight member and pilot, I encourage your support of > a worthwhile organization. If you remember, Angel Flight planes were > just about the only GA planes flying immediately after the 9/11 > attacks. They provide a great service. > > Randy Dettmer > 680F/N6253X > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barry W. Hancock > To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; > commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:25 PM > Subject: Angel flight > > OK, he really said we should give the $$ to Angle Flight. What a great > and fun idea. So, you will all be bringing something, right!! thanks > .....jb > > Is that an angles fight or Angel Flight? Sorry, it's the wannabe > fighter pilot coming out in me.... :) > > As a member of Angel Flight, I think it's a wonderful thought. I urge > anyone interested in helping those less fortunate to consider > contributing your time and aircraft to Angel Flight missions. You can > contact me directly for more info. > > Cheers, > > Barry > On Monday, September 2, 2002, at 09:09 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: > > HI KIDS.... > > Just a note to let you know that Gary Tillman will ounce > again bless us with his presence at this years flyin and seve as our > auctioneer. Those of you who were at last years event know how much > fun this is (Better sit on your hands!!) He suggested that each > attendee bring something from their state to auction off with the > proceeds going to my gas fund!! > PS get those reg. forms in!! jb > > Barry Hancock All Red Star (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Colemill "Super 300" MTOW
Derek Monk wrote: > > Hi Chris, > How were Merlyn able to get such a large % increase in TOGW without a > significant amount of structural analysis and testing? At 6750 Lb > TOGW, 2050 Lb increase would be 45%! > Derek Monk I'd love to have the answer to that question myself Derek. Apparently, there must be either some existing structural data or they did their own analysis. I'm inclined to suspect the former though. Several cargo haulers have been granted significant GW increases for the Shrike by the FAA. TCAC probably has all the actual testing data which proves that the airframe isn't going to break...just runs out of power to haul... Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Just figures...
> Bow wrote: > > reason the > > wind blows so hard out of the north is that it sucks so bad in > > O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A > > ha. It can get a bit breezy for sure. 20kts is "light and variable". > On the plus side, avgas is $1.74/gal here ($1.49 at the self-serve) > and hangars are available and run between $75 (port-a-port) and > $160 (lighted, electrical, bi-fold doors, etc) for a single and > up to $280/month for a big, heated job with a bathroom suitable > for a Commander + misc. > If you can stand the weather, it's a cheap place to live. > > Chris That's just like here if you double all those numbers, and add a little. bilbo > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Hints to make you fly-in happier
FYI - especially to those of you who will be flying commercial to the upcoming fly-in: I understand that some of the major airports have upgraded their baggage scanning systems. These new scanners will damage photographic film. Checked luggage is at the highest risk as the new systems are even capable of penetrating lead shielded film bags from what I've recently read. If you are carrying film, ask to have it hand checked as the new x-ray machines are much more powerful now and will fog even 400 speed film. your ever-helpful internet host, Chris T-minus three weeks and counting! PS: is the Aussie contingent all coming? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: LIGHT TURNOUT??
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: LIGHT TURNOUT??
HI KIDS... Well, just like last year we are down to the wire and far fewer than I hoped have responded. If you are planing to attend this event, NOW is the time to contact me!! I am not "whining" but these things are not easy or cheap to set up and it is impossible to plan if I don't know the number of people who will be attending. I spent several hours last night calling members reminding them to get the form and $$ in and am cretin there are a number of you who are not TCFG members who are planing to be there but haven't sent the paperwork in (Big Al?) If you are registered, please spread the word to anyone else who might enjoy attending, Thanks jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2002
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT??
I'll be there the moment I shake loose my ex wife (November?), I too am counting the days. Tom... ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 18:28 Subject: LIGHT TURNOUT?? HI KIDS... Well, just like last year we are down to the wire and far fewer than I hoped have responded. If you are planing to attend this event, NOW is the time to contact me!! I am not "whining" but these things are not easy or cheap to set up and it is impossible to plan if I don't know the number of people who will be attending. I spent several hours last night calling members reminding them to get the form and $$ in and am cretin there are a number of you who are not TCFG members who are planing to be there but haven't sent the paperwork in (Big Al?) If you are registered, please spread the word to anyone else who might enjoy attending, Thanks jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2002
From: Barry W. Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT??
Guys, guys, GUYS!!!! I'm not even going this year and I can't tell you how disappointed I am to see this same urgent message 2 years in a row. JB does a TON to support our community, the LEAST we can do is be prompt with payment. I can tell you first hand that these things require a lot of up front cash. Kindly...GET OFF YOUR KIESTERS and give proper support to JB and the event. You're only supporting yourselves by doing so... Wish I could be there... Barry On Friday, September 6, 2002, at 06:28 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: > HI KIDS... > > Well, just like last year we are down to the wire and far > fewer than I hoped have responded. If you are planing to attend this > event, NOW is the time to contact me!! I am not "whining" but these > things are not easy or cheap to set up and it is impossible to plan if > I don't know the number of people who will be attending. I spent > several hours last night calling members reminding them to get the form > and $$ in and am cretin there are a number of you who are not TCFG > members who are planing to be there but haven't sent the paperwork in > (Big Al?) > If you are registered, please spread the word to anyone else who > might enjoy attending, Thanks jb > > Barry Hancock All Red Star (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT??
HI KIDS. I just got off the phone with Chris (around the world in a 560E) Wall and he will be at the flyin!! He is a great guy and this will be a wonderful opportunity to spend time with a kid who has done what we all dream we could have. Hope you will be there to. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2002
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT??
Hi Guys, Just to make it clear, this year's 'gentle reminder' is from the other Barry. Mine of last year wasn't quite so subtle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hope to see you all in a few weeks. Barry C. UK CommanderLand Rep. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry W. Hancock To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 3:53 AM Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT?? Guys, guys, GUYS!!!! I'm not even going this year and I can't tell you how disappointed I am to see this same urgent message 2 years in a row. JB does a TON to support our community, the LEAST we can do is be prompt with payment. I can tell you first hand that these things require a lot of up front cash. Kindly...GET OFF YOUR KIESTERS and give proper support to JB and the event. You're only supporting yourselves by doing so... Wish I could be there... Barry On Friday, September 6, 2002, at 06:28 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: HI KIDS... Well, just like last year we are down to the wire and far fewer than I hoped have responded. If you are planing to attend this event, NOW is the time to contact me!! I am not "whining" but these things are not easy or cheap to set up and it is impossible to plan if I don't know the number of people who will be attending. I spent several hours last night calling members reminding them to get the form and $$ in and am cretin there are a number of you who are not TCFG members who are planing to be there but haven't sent the paperwork in (Big Al?) If you are registered, please spread the word to anyone else who might enjoy attending, Thanks jb Barry Hancock All Red Star (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2002
From: Tylor Hall <thall5(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT??
Hay Gang, I just wrote the check to TCFG and called Eagle at CAE for the room reservation at the Holiday Inn. If Barry is coming from England, I can get there from Kansas. I would love to get a ride rather than have to pay Delta to fly me there. Any one coming from the WEST going to CAE, I will contribute to the Gas bill. I will jump on the airlines to get closer to you. Tylor Hall 913-422-8869 913-485-3799 Cell -----Original Message----- From: Barry Collman [mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 7:55 AM To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT?? Hi Guys, Just to make it clear, this year's 'gentle reminder' is from the other Barry. Mine of last year wasn't quite so subtle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hope to see you all in a few weeks. Barry C. UK CommanderLand Rep. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry W. Hancock To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 3:53 AM Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT?? Guys, guys, GUYS!!!! I'm not even going this year and I can't tell you how disappointed I am to see this same urgent message 2 years in a row. JB does a TON to support our community, the LEAST we can do is be prompt with payment. I can tell you first hand that these things require a lot of up front cash. Kindly...GET OFF YOUR KIESTERS and give proper support to JB and the event. You're only supporting yourselves by doing so... Wish I could be there... Barry On Friday, September 6, 2002, at 06:28 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: HI KIDS... Well, just like last year we are down to the wire and far fewer than I hoped have responded. If you are planing to attend this event, NOW is the time to contact me!! I am not "whining" but these things are not easy or cheap to set up and it is impossible to plan if I don't know the number of people who will be attending. I spent several hours last night calling members reminding them to get the form and $$ in and am cretin there are a number of you who are not TCFG members who are planing to be there but haven't sent the paperwork in (Big Al?) If you are registered, please spread the word to anyone else who might enjoy attending, Thanks jb Barry Hancock All Red Star (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2002
From: Robert C. Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT??
Why don't you take the payment via Paypal? https://www.paypal.com/refer/pal=SB2C5TVNGT8TE Also, you can request money from people and they can pay via a CC. If you use the above link and it generates a referral, I will send ALL that extra cash to the fly-in organizer. $5 per person. Traveling Worldwide? Ask me about phones and service for only $139 a year. No roaming, prepaid, no hidden charges. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry W. Hancock To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 9:53 PM Subject: Re: LIGHT TURNOUT?? Guys, guys, GUYS!!!! I'm not even going this year and I can't tell you how disappointed I am to see this same urgent message 2 years in a row. JB does a TON to support our community, the LEAST we can do is be prompt with payment. I can tell you first hand that these things require a lot of up front cash. Kindly...GET OFF YOUR KIESTERS and give proper support to JB and the event. You're only supporting yourselves by doing so... Wish I could be there... Barry On Friday, September 6, 2002, at 06:28 PM, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote: HI KIDS... Well, just like last year we are down to the wire and far fewer than I hoped have responded. If you are planing to attend this event, NOW is the time to contact me!! I am not "whining" but these things are not easy or cheap to set up and it is impossible to plan if I don't know the number of people who will be attending. I spent several hours last night calling members reminding them to get the form and $$ in and am cretin there are a number of you who are not TCFG members who are planing to be there but haven't sent the paperwork in (Big Al?) If you are registered, please spread the word to anyone else who might enjoy attending, Thanks jb Barry Hancock All Red Star (949) 300-5510 radialpower(at)cox.net www.allredstar.com "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Hello?
"Is this thing on?" Mighty quiet around here folks. Y'all getting all packed up? Hope most everyone has made travel arrangments and will make it. Keith, are you going to be there this year? chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2002
From: Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net>
Subject: Re: Hello?
Read you 5 by 5. I made my hotel reservation. Still looking for a ride. How are you going to get there, Chris? Tylor -----Original Message----- From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:16 PM To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Subject: Hello? "Is this thing on?" Mighty quiet around here folks. Y'all getting all packed up? Hope most everyone has made travel arrangments and will make it. Keith, are you going to be there this year? chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2002
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Hello?
Hey Chris, Well, although I explained to EVERYONE that I couldn't go, because I'm getting married next Saturday & heading off to the Cayman Islands for a week, I took a surprising amount of (kind & tactful) flak from Morris & the local Commander contingent. So I'll see ya on Thursday probably, as we wing through Oklahoma on our way to the rally! Morris, Luis Allende, and I will be in Andrew's dash-10 690 for a nice FL310-ish trip, which will be a nice change from my 500B sightseeing altitudes :-). I can't wait....this year should be GREAT! Oh, and Capt. Jimbob, I'm really sorry I didn't get a registration form in...they just now finally twisted my arm enough to commit to the journey ;-). Cheers, /John PS: Plus, my piddly "but-I-have-to-cross-the-whole-USA" excuse wouldn't fly with the Australian contingent, I'm sure! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 6:16 PM Subject: Hello? > > > "Is this thing on?" > > Mighty quiet around here folks. Y'all getting all packed up? > Hope most everyone has made travel arrangments and will make it. > Keith, are you going to be there this year? > > chris > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Hello?
In a message dated 9/8/02 6:51:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tylorh(at)sound.net writes: > Read you 5 by 5. > > I made my hotel reservation. Still looking for a ride. > How are you going to get there, Chris? > Tylor HI TYLOR. I will call Lou Tran (Commander 500) and see if he can pick up up. Where, exactly, are you?? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Hello?
In a message dated 9/8/02 7:03:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, john(at)vormbaum.com writes: > Oh, and Capt. Jimbob, I'm really sorry I didn't get a registration form > in...they just now finally twisted my arm enough to commit to the journey > ;-). > I,m just glad yout be there!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2002
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Hello?
In a message dated 09/08/02 18:17:45 Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes: > Mighty quiet around here folks. Y'all getting all packed up? > Hope most everyone has made travel arrangments and will make it. > Keith, are you going to be there this year? > Regrettably, no. I have trips that run across every weekend this month, not to mention flying almost every week day as well. I could complain, but I am employed in aviation at a time when many are not, so I thank my lucky stars and miss my friends. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Hello?
OK. Which city would be the best to fly to (commercially)? And then, how do I get to the flyin from the airport by car? I will rent a car at the airport and drive out. Then, at which hotel can I make reservations? Thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> To: Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 6:16 PM Subject: Hello? > > > "Is this thing on?" > > Mighty quiet around here folks. Y'all getting all packed up? > Hope most everyone has made travel arrangments and will make it. > Keith, are you going to be there this year? > > chris > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Hello?
> OK. Which city would be the best to fly to (commercially)? > And then, how do I get to the flyin from the airport by car? I will rent a > car at the airport and drive out. Then, at which hotel can I make > reservations? > Thanks > Nico Nico, ATL is probably the closest. It is a 35 minute flight in a DC-9 type. Choices of airline service are pretty limited. I think the best choice would be Air Tran, But they aren't a choice from the "Left Coast". It is probably a very short drive from ATL to CAE. bilbo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Hello?
Amen bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 1:56 AM Subject: Re: Hello? In a message dated 09/08/02 18:17:45 Pacific Daylight Time, chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com writes: Mighty quiet around here folks. Y'all getting all packed up? Hope most everyone has made travel arrangments and will make it. Keith, are you going to be there this year? Regrettably, no. I have trips that run across every weekend this month, not to mention flying almost every week day as well. I could complain, but I am employed in aviation at a time when many are not, so I thank my lucky stars and miss my friends. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Hello?
Nico van Niekerk wrote: > at which hotel can I make > reservations? Amy at Eagle Aviation is handling the rooms. You can call her at: 800-849-3245 hope to see ya there! chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Hello?
John Vormbaum wrote: > So I'll see ya on Thursday probably, as we wing through Oklahoma on our way > to the rally! Morris, Luis Allende, and I will be in Andrew's dash-10 690 Fantastic John! Actually, there's a possibility that we might ride back to OK with you guys, but those plans are still mush right now. Don't get too spoiled in that 690 chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: Re: Hello?
CloudCraft(at)aol.com wrote: > Regrettably, no. Bummer, but I sure understand. Actually, I would almost rather be in that position :) We'll take lots of pictures for ya! chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Hello?
Nico van Niekerk wrote: >OK. Which city would be the best to fly to (commercially)? >And then, how do I get to the flyin from the airport by car? I will rent a >car at the airport and drive out. Then, at which hotel can I make >reservations? >Thanks >Nico > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 6:16 PM >Subject: Hello? > > >> >> >>"Is this thing on?" >> >>Mighty quiet around here folks. Y'all getting all packed up? >>Hope most everyone has made travel arrangments and will make it. >>Keith, are you going to be there this year? >> >>chris >> >> > > Nico, Unless I'm mistaken, the Fly-In is at CAE which is served by several airlines (no car nessessary). Bilbo is right though, as you will probably have to connect in Atlanta. Crunk ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hello?
Its 3 hrs straight down I-20 East through Augusta. About 150 to Augusta then 80 more to Columbia if by car. Don > [Original Message] > From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> > To: > Date: 9/9/02 8:04:52 AM > Subject: Re: Hello? > > > > OK. Which city would be the best to fly to (commercially)? > > And then, how do I get to the flyin from the airport by car? I will rent a > > car at the airport and drive out. Then, at which hotel can I make > > reservations? > > Thanks > > Nico > > > Nico, > ATL is probably the closest. It is a 35 minute flight in a DC-9 type. > Choices of airline service are pretty limited. I think the best choice > would be Air Tran, But they aren't a choice from the "Left Coast". It > is probably a very short drive from ATL to CAE. > > bilbo > --- Lowell Girod --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net --- Twin Commander 560 E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: ATL
Nico, If you get to ATL, There are a couple(at least 3) Commanders coming from that area. One of them might give you a lift. bilbo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2002
From: Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hello?
Nico; I wrote you the driving directions, but Columbia is a fair sized city and airport, might just want to fly on from ATL over to CAE. But it is an easy drive. Don > [Original Message] > From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> > To: ; Chris Schuermann > Date: 9/9/02 3:34:32 AM > Subject: Re: Hello? > > OK. Which city would be the best to fly to (commercially)? > And then, how do I get to the flyin from the airport by car? I will rent a > car at the airport and drive out. Then, at which hotel can I make > reservations? > Thanks > Nico > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 6:16 PM > Subject: Hello? > > > > > > > > "Is this thing on?" > > > > Mighty quiet around here folks. Y'all getting all packed up? > > Hope most everyone has made travel arrangments and will make it. > > Keith, are you going to be there this year? > > > > chris > > > > > > > --- Lowell Girod --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net --- Twin Commander 560 E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Comercial connections to CAE
Hey guys. The Delta connection is ASA (atlantic southeast airlines.) They should have several flights a day from ATL to CAE. I would also bet that Comair (Delta connection from Cinncinati) would also have a few flights. Another thought is US Air Express. Best bet would be out of Charlotte. And if I hear any more talk about Delta out of you guys in Kansas I am going to pack up the AIRTRAN station that opened in ICT and let you pay Delta fairs forever!!! Just remember when Airtran stopped service to Mobile, AL Delta raised the fair 400% the next day. But they say that they have never practiced predatory pricing, just aggresive competition.......I guess that's why they doubled the number of flights to ICT when we started going in there at the begining of summer. But the ICT EAGLE newpaper reported that the average price of a ticket from Witchita to New York is down from 1800 bucks to 350. And of course Delta is matching that fair. But it's not unfair competition or anything. Just rambling on now, but the first paragraph is good info for getting to CAE. JetPaul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: BAGAGE KIT
HI KIDS. There is a factory option baggage compartment kit on ebay. It is a "ski tube" and is new, never installed. No reserve and no bids so far. Somebody here should have it!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2002
From: Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com>
Subject: CG Aux Air
OK I admit it. I haven't been as good as I might on the whole organising and remembering of the mail thing but... I am the only CG Aux plane in my Division, and , well , I need some help in navigating the whole Coast Guard thing. I Could Use a great deal of HELP! in understanding what needs to be done and by whom. So, the fellow from Texas who is doing this stuff... Pls give me a reply with phone number, etc. I appreciate it in advance. For everyone else, a reminder on this ugly day: **rant starts here** The Coast Guard are the only organisation really tasked with protecting the homeland. (Borders and all that). I understand that they will eventually be tremendously grown, but for now, until the Homeland Security bill is passed, they don't have a budget, and won't have one for quite a while. From the standpoint of air assets they depend tremendously on FOLKS LIKE US to step up and volunteer to do patrols and the such. In spite of the fact that they are a military organisation with all the (sometime stupid, bureaucratic) baggage that entails, they are currently stretched to the breaking point and could use all the help folks like us could give them. So, for god's sake and our own, step up to the plate and volunteer. And if you do, and live in Washington, let me know.... the more the merrier....... Besides, they pay you..... *rant ends here*** Bruce (sometimes sanctimonious) Campbell USCG Aux *member number pending* AC52 N4186B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
Subject: not again!
Well, we got another one . I think I may have figured out what's going on with the viruii. I've been tinkering with some of the new email clients and found out that one of the "features" that many now have is the ability to automaticly add the addresses of any email received to an address list. Y'all will want to turn this off anyway as it just creates a huge address list. Go to your preferences area of your email software and find the "email address collection" controls. Disable automatic collection. Next, edit your address book and eliminate any addresses you don't want to send viruses to (such as the commander lists :-) thanks, chris PS: I'm pretty certain I've backtracked the perp and have sent direct email. If we receive any further viruses which come from the same locatioin, I'll disable those addresses immediatly. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: temp
I am changing windshields and I don't want to put the temp probe back in the new windshield. Anybody got a source for a remote, electric type temp probe? bilbo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Key West
Hi Guys, If the word is not out, everyone is invited to meet in Key West on the 26th for 'Drunk n Sun' Commander mini fly-in. We'll be arriving about 1100a on the 26th and departing for CAE the next day. We're staying at the Pier House on Duval St. Latest count was about 12 to 14 people attending. Come join us! Crunk ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Fellow Commander Drivers, Last night I had a bit of excitement. At about 450 ft. AGL, the right engine on N680RR (680Fp) failed. Pertinent info. at time of failure. Runway departed 25 Gross Wt. 7,660 lbs. (8,000 max gross wt. allowable) Density Altitude 1,000 Altitude 450 AGL, (510 MSL) Airspeed at engine failure 115 mph (120 blue line, 90 redline) Headwind less than 7 knots Gear and Flaps were up at time of failure, cowl flaps were wide open RPM 3200 Manifold Pressure approx. 45 Power Failure was instant and clean (no misfire, vibaration, ect.) Reason for flight was night currency (3 take offs and landings) This was the first takeoff, and occurred immediately after a normal run up and systems check. Immediately after the engine out I called the tower and advised of the situation, and was cleared to land immediately. HHR (Hawthorne, CA. Municipal) has only one runway 25-7, and left traffic for runway 25 is mandatory due to the LAX Class B airspace directly to the North (surface to 10,000). Thanks to 380 horsepower on the left wing and lots of rudder/ vertical stabilizer I was able to turn into the good engine and climb slightly. My pattern was slightly wider than usual, as a steep angle of bank was a major concern. At no time was maximum rudder used. With a 5,000 foot runway a slightly high approach was used and gear down and flaps were not selected until about 200 ft. above the runway height on short final. The cause of engine failure has not been determined yet. The engine would not start once the plane was landed, and there are no obvious problems (leaks, loose hoses). After the failure has been diagnosed I will advise of the problem. The main point here is that you can easily survive an engine failure at the time of take off in one of these planes if it is properly configured in a reasonable period of time, the load/ altitude factor is ok, and the running engine is healthy. I would not recommend turning into the good engine if it is at all avoidable because a flat turn (use of rudder only) creates excessive drag, and putting the wing, on the good engine, down causes immediate altitude drop. Stay current and alert! Moe Mills ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: ROOMS, IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ
HI KIDS... Anyone planing to attend the Commander fly-in needs to make their room reservations TODAY!! Those attending who do not have them made yet (that I know about) Tylor Hall, Paul Reason, Gary Tillman, Rod Browne, Harry Merritt and Mark Poulin. PLEASE CALL AMY AT 1-800-849-3245 TODAY!! Thanks to all. The flyin is getting traction. We now have over 50 signed up and lots of airplanes.. Lets get the names in to Amy. She will release the rooms today ($50 something price up to $70 something) It is going to be a blast!! Wish I could make the Key West "mini flyin" but will see everybody at CAE. PS Big Al....Are yoi coming? Now is the time!! jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Thanks for the report...and congrats on keeping a cool head and handling the emergency well. I read the details with keen interest, since I own and operate a 680F too. Randy Dettmer 680F/N6253X San Luis Obispo, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Fellow Commander Drivers, Last night I had a bit of excitement. At about 450 ft. AGL, the right engine on N680RR (680Fp) failed. Pertinent info. at time of failure. Runway departed 25 Gross Wt. 7,660 lbs. (8,000 max gross wt. allowable) Density Altitude 1,000 Altitude 450 AGL, (510 MSL) Airspeed at engine failure 115 mph (120 blue line, 90 redline) Headwind less than 7 knots Gear and Flaps were up at time of failure, cowl flaps were wide open RPM 3200 Manifold Pressure approx. 45 Power Failure was instant and clean (no misfire, vibaration, ect.) Reason for flight was night currency (3 take offs and landings) This was the first takeoff, and occurred immediately after a normal run up and systems check. Immediately after the engine out I called the tower and advised of the situation, and was cleared to land immediately. HHR (Hawthorne, CA. Municipal) has only one runway 25-7, and left traffic for runway 25 is mandatory due to the LAX Class B airspace directly to the North (surface to 10,000). Thanks to 380 horsepower on the left wing and lots of rudder/ vertical stabilizer I was able to turn into the good engine and climb slightly. My pattern was slightly wider than usual, as a steep angle of bank was a major concern. At no time was maximum rudder used. With a 5,000 foot runway a slightly high approach was used and gear down and flaps were not selected until about 200 ft. above the runway height on short final. The cause of engine failure has not been determined yet. The engine would not start once the plane was landed, and there are no obvious problems (leaks, loose hoses). After the failure has been diagnosed I will advise of the problem. The main point here is that you can easily survive an engine failure at the time of take off in one of these planes if it is properly configured in a reasonable period of time, the load/ altitude factor is ok, and the running engine is healthy. I would not recommend turning into the good engine if it is at all avoidable because a flat turn (use of rudder only) creates excessive drag, and putting the wing, on the good engine, down causes immediate altitude drop. Stay current and alert! Moe Mills ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Ricardo A. Otaola <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Thnaks for the report also. Have you cheked the fuel pump?? Was it on?? Otherwise, check for leaks on the shut-off valves. Lastly, your fuel unit!!!. ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Dettmer, AIA To: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com ; commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Thanks for the report...and congrats on keeping a cool head and handling the emergency well. I read the details with keen interest, since I own and operate a 680F too. Randy Dettmer 680F/N6253X San Luis Obispo, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Fellow Commander Drivers, Last night I had a bit of excitement. At about 450 ft. AGL, the right engine on N680RR (680Fp) failed. Pertinent info. at time of failure. Runway departed 25 Gross Wt. 7,660 lbs. (8,000 max gross wt. allowable) Density Altitude 1,000 Altitude 450 AGL, (510 MSL) Airspeed at engine failure 115 mph (120 blue line, 90 redline) Headwind less than 7 knots Gear and Flaps were up at time of failure, cowl flaps were wide open RPM 3200 Manifold Pressure approx. 45 Power Failure was instant and clean (no misfire, vibaration, ect.) Reason for flight was night currency (3 take offs and landings) This was the first takeoff, and occurred immediately after a normal run up and systems check. Immediately after the engine out I called the tower and advised of the situation, and was cleared to land immediately. HHR (Hawthorne, CA. Municipal) has only one runway 25-7, and left traffic for runway 25 is mandatory due to the LAX Class B airspace directly to the North (surface to 10,000). Thanks to 380 horsepower on the left wing and lots of rudder/ vertical stabilizer I was able to turn into the good engine and climb slightly. My pattern was slightly wider than usual, as a steep angle of bank was a major concern. At no time was maximum rudder used. With a 5,000 foot runway a slightly high approach was used and gear down and flaps were not selected until about 200 ft. above the runway height on short final. The cause of engine failure has not been determined yet. The engine would not start once the plane was landed, and there are no obvious problems (leaks, loose hoses). After the failure has been diagnosed I will advise of the problem. The main point here is that you can easily survive an engine failure at the time of take off in one of these planes if it is properly configured in a reasonable period of time, the load/ altitude factor is ok, and the running engine is healthy. I would not recommend turning into the good engine if it is at all avoidable because a flat turn (use of rudder only) creates excessive drag, and putting the wing, on the good engine, down causes immediate altitude drop. Stay current and alert! Moe Mills ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com>
Subject: Re: temp
I got a davtron and am very happy with it. There are several models, including one that doubles as a clock if you're short on panel space. Bruce Campbell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bow" <w.bow(at)att.net> To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:42 AM Subject: temp > I am changing windshields and I don't want to put the temp probe back in the > new windshield. > > Anybody got a source for a remote, electric type temp probe? > > bilbo > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Hi, Moe. Got good vibes when I read your encounter. Reminded me of a similar outcome I had many years ago in a different airplane. What you said about turning into the good engine floors me completely. I always believed turning into the good engine is the best-practice maneuver because of the lower drag required keeping the live engine below the horizontal than it is trying to keep the live engine in check when its high up above the horizontal such as turning into the dead engine. Logic alone tells me that there is a much shorter distance to inverted when the live motor (which is the one that kills if out of control) is above the horizontal. Or did you intend saying turning into the dead engine should be avoided? Care to enlighten me? Thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Fellow Commander Drivers, Last night I had a bit of excitement. At about 450 ft. AGL, the right engine on N680RR (680Fp) failed. Pertinent info. at time of failure. Runway departed 25 Gross Wt. 7,660 lbs. (8,000 max gross wt. allowable) Density Altitude 1,000 Altitude 450 AGL, (510 MSL) Airspeed at engine failure 115 mph (120 blue line, 90 redline) Headwind less than 7 knots Gear and Flaps were up at time of failure, cowl flaps were wide open RPM 3200 Manifold Pressure approx. 45 Power Failure was instant and clean (no misfire, vibaration, ect.) Reason for flight was night currency (3 take offs and landings) This was the first takeoff, and occurred immediately after a normal run up and systems check. Immediately after the engine out I called the tower and advised of the situation, and was cleared to land immediately. HHR (Hawthorne, CA. Municipal) has only one runway 25-7, and left traffic for runway 25 is mandatory due to the LAX Class B airspace directly to the North (surface to 10,000). Thanks to 380 horsepower on the left wing and lots of rudder/ vertical stabilizer I was able to turn into the good engine and climb slightly. My pattern was slightly wider than usual, as a steep angle of bank was a major concern. At no time was maximum rudder used. With a 5,000 foot runway a slightly high approach was used and gear down and flaps were not selected until about 200 ft. above the runway height on short final. The cause of engine failure has not been determined yet. The engine would not start once the plane was landed, and there are no obvious problems (leaks, loose hoses). After the failure has been diagnosed I will advise of the problem. The main point here is that you can easily survive an engine failure at the time of take off in one of these planes if it is properly configured in a reasonable period of time, the load/ altitude factor is ok, and the running engine is healthy. I would not recommend turning into the good engine if it is at all avoidable because a flat turn (use of rudder only) creates excessive drag, and putting the wing, on the good engine, down causes immediate altitude drop. Stay current and alert! Moe Mills ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Nico; I agree, I thought only Bob Hoover consistently turned into the dead engine just to 'showoff'. Got my 560E in the paint shop, was getting a little corrosion under the paint at spots, so its a strip job, treatment, prime and paint, a 4 or 5 week job. Wish I had started earlier so I could have 'shown it off' at CAE this year. OH well maybe another time on the East Coast. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: 9/11/02 3:20:11 PM Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Hi, Moe. Got good vibes when I read your encounter. Reminded me of a similar outcome I had many years ago in a different airplane. What you said about turning into the good engine floors me completely. I always believed turning into the good engine is the best-practice maneuver because of the lower drag required keeping the live engine below the horizontal than it is trying to keep the live engine in check when its high up above the horizontal such as turning into the dead engine. Logic alone tells me that there is a much shorter distance to inverted when the live motor (which is the one that kills if out of control) is above the horizontal. Or did you intend saying turning into the dead engine should be avoided? Care to enlighten me? Thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Fellow Commander Drivers, Last night I had a bit of excitement. At about 450 ft. AGL, the right engine on N680RR (680Fp) failed. Pertinent info. at time of failure. Runway departed 25 Gross Wt. 7,660 lbs. (8,000 max gross wt. allowable) Density Altitude 1,000 Altitude 450 AGL, (510 MSL) Airspeed at engine failure 115 mph (120 blue line, 90 redline) Headwind less than 7 knots Gear and Flaps were up at time of failure, cowl flaps were wide open RPM 3200 Manifold Pressure approx. 45 Power Failure was instant and clean (no misfire, vibaration, ect.) Reason for flight was night currency (3 take offs and landings) This was the first takeoff, and occurred immediately after a normal run up and systems check. Immediately after the engine out I called the tower and advised of the situation, and was cleared to land immediately. HHR (Hawthorne, CA. Mun icipal) has only one runway 25-7, and left traffic for runway 25 is mandatory due to the LAX Class B airspace directly to the North (surface to 10,000). Thanks to 380 horsepower on the left wing and lots of rudder/ vertical stabilizer I was able to turn into the good engine and climb slightly. My pattern was slightly wider than usual, as a steep angle of bank was a major concern. At no time was maximum rudder used. With a 5,000 foot runway a slightly high approach was used and gear down and flaps were not selected until about 200 ft. above the runway height on short final. The cause of engine failure has not been determined yet. The engine would not start once the plane was landed, and there are no obvious problems (leaks, loose hoses). After the failure has been diagnosed I will advise of the problem. The main point here is that you can easily survive an engine failure at the time of take off in one of these planes if it is properly configured in a re asonable period of time, the load/ altitude factor is ok, and the running engine is healthy. I would not recommend turning into the good engine if it is at all avoidable because a flat turn (use of rudder only) creates excessive drag, and putting the wing, on the good engine, down causes immediate altitude drop. Stay current and alert! Moe Mills --- Lowell Girod --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net --- Twin Commander 560 E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Robert Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Would it be true to say that lots more rudder is required for turning into the good engine, which creates a sort of slip and kills your rate of climb if any because you are using the extra power (again, if any) to overcome that drag. Like anything else, don't let the good engine 'get away from you' and keep your turn gradual. Try to keep it at blue line for best rate-of-least-going-down. Of course, that's just off the top of my head, been awhile since I got my multi. > > From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> > Date: 2002/09/11 Wed PM 03:20:11 EDT > To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com > Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF > > Hi, Moe. > Got good vibes when I read your encounter. Reminded me of a similar outcome I had many years ago in a different airplane. > > What you said about turning into the good engine floors me completely. I always believed turning into the good engine is the best-practice maneuver because of the lower drag required keeping the live engine below the horizontal than it is trying to keep the live engine in check when its high up above the horizontal such as turning into the dead engine. Logic alone tells me that there is a much shorter distance to inverted when the live motor (which is the one that kills if out of control) is above the horizontal. Or did you intend saying turning into the dead engine should be avoided? > Care to enlighten me? > Thanks > Nico > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com > To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:08 AM > Subject: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF > > > Fellow Commander Drivers, > > Last night I had a bit of excitement. At about 450 ft. AGL, the right engine on N680RR (680Fp) failed. > > Pertinent info. at time of failure. > > Runway departed 25 > Gross Wt. 7,660 lbs. (8,000 max gross wt. allowable) > Density Altitude 1,000 > Altitude 450 AGL, (510 MSL) > Airspeed at engine failure 115 mph (120 blue line, 90 redline) > Headwind less than 7 knots > Gear and Flaps were up at time of failure, cowl flaps were wide open > RPM 3200 > Manifold Pressure approx. 45 > Power Failure was instant and clean (no misfire, vibaration, ect.) > Reason for flight was night currency (3 take offs and landings) > This was the first takeoff, and occurred immediately after a normal run up and systems check. > > Immediately after the engine out I called the tower and advised of the situation, and was cleared to land immediately. HHR (Hawthorne, CA. Municipal) has only one runway 25-7, and left traffic for runway 25 is mandatory due to the LAX Class B airspace directly to the North (surface to 10,000). > > Thanks to 380 horsepower on the left wing and lots of rudder/ vertical stabilizer I was able to turn into the good engine and climb slightly. My pattern was slightly wider than usual, as a steep angle of bank was a major concern. At no time was maximum rudder used. With a 5,000 foot runway a slightly high approach was used and gear down and flaps were not selected until about 200 ft. above the runway height on short final. > > The cause of engine failure has not been determined yet. The engine would not start once the plane was landed, and there are no obvious problems (leaks, loose hoses). > > After the failure has been diagnosed I will advise of the problem. > > The main point here is that you can easily survive an engine failure at the time of take off in one of these planes if it is properly configured in a reasonable period of time, the load/ altitude factor is ok, and the running engine is healthy. I would not recommend turning into the good engine if it is at all avoidable because a flat turn (use of rudder only) creates excessive drag, and putting the wing, on the good engine, down causes immediate altitude drop. > > Stay current and alert! > > Moe Mills > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Dear NICO: Thank you very much for the kind reply regarding the engine out. When I originally purchased the 680Fp (a little over 300 hours ago) my insurance company required 50 hours of dual with an approved instructor, as all of my previous twin time was in a Cessna 337 (Skymaster). After learning the proper procedures, etc., we still had several hours left to fly over a relatively short time with no place to go. Consequently we did a lot of flying on one engine (I know it is hard on the geared engines). The live engine certainly is the one that kills. For this reason I find that single engine turns should be made with a very shallow bank. If you make a left turn with the right engine shut down, and use a bank of say 30 degrees the altitude loss will be frightening. If you turn into the dead engine execute the turn with the wing almost level and let the plane "yaw" into the turn. The resulting uncoordinated turn will produce more drag than you would have with the wing down on the dead engine side, however the amount of induced drag is comparable to the amount of lost lift, and is much safer than a steep bank. Keep in mind this is merely my humble opinion, and that my 680Fp is a short fuselage model with the 49.5 ft. wing and engine nacelles which have a pretty good air foil shape. Moe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Deborah R. Hancock <whiteslave(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
> Logic alone tells me that there is a much shorter distance to inverted > when the live motor (which is the one that kills if out of control) is > above the horizontal. Or did you intend saying turning into the dead > engine should be avoided? > Care to enlighten me? > Thanks > Nico Yeah, this goes against my training too. However, turning into the dead engine isn't a big deal IF you fly the pattern wide enough, and IF you keep your speed well above MCA. I'd like to hear WCG's thoughts on this one... Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Robert Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Well, doesn't turning into the live motor require a lot of rudder in a Commander (high power engines), and doesn't it also put the airplane into an uncoordinated turn, which creates drag, which reduces the excess power available to climb or maintain level? I.e., bank is minimal and you are using rudder to control the turning tendency, i.e. a skid? Maintaining blue line and then putting the aircraft into a slip of sorts is counterproductive to some degree. You can let the aircraft turn into the dead engine I think, just keep it under control. I think this might be a good experiment at altitude. See turning which way gives the best results in your particular plane for each engine inop. As a last resort, you could chop power to the live engine if it goes too far. Most people don't think about that one. Then you become a glider for a bit, but it's a better option than letting the engine drag you over. In fact, if you've got gobs of excess power, that may be a decent option if you've got excess and are say, at pattern altitude where you can make the field engine out or at cruise. On an Apache, probably not an issue, and on that twin, letting it turn towards the dead engine might not be a bad idea to reduce drag, since Vysse is probably best rate-of-least-going-down. (Hee Hee, I love that term.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Hi Bob, I agree, but I was trying to give a perspective of 'all things being equal' and not plug into the situation many variables, such as the effort required to turn, but rather maintain an equilibrium-turn, and so on. Initiating a turn has its own problems but a coordinated turn requires more rudder input into the dead engine than into the live one, regardless of horsepower. Using the asymmetrical thrust to yaw the plane into a dead-engine turn comes down to airmanship and handling the emergency, but that does not address the dangers of a dead-engine turn when a tighter circuit is flown, perhaps out of need (such as in an Apache -- I know I did my ME in one, which the next student crashed. I have pictures of the wreck showing the critical motor feathered! The student misidentified the shut-down engine and inadvertently feathered the good engine. That settled that. Both the student and instructor were sewn up and are flying again. - A bit of good news.) There are more factors that favor turning into the live engine and that is the higher thrust on the down-going blade of the propeller, which puts the higher thrust on the critical engine closer to the center line of the fuselage and further away from the center line on the no. 2 engine. So, the evidence just mounts up. Thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Bullock To: Nico van Niekerk Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Well, doesn't turning into the live motor require a lot of rudder in a Commander (high power engines), and doesn't it also put the airplane into an uncoordinated turn, which creates drag, which reduces the excess power available to climb or maintain level? I.e., bank is minimal and you are using rudder to control the turning tendency, i.e. a skid? Maintaining blue line and then putting the aircraft into a slip of sorts is counterproductive to some degree. You can let the aircraft turn into the dead engine I think, just keep it under control. I think this might be a good experiment at altitude. See turning which way gives the best results in your particular plane for each engine inop. As a last resort, you could chop power to the live engine if it goes too far. Most people don't think about that one. Then you become a glider for a bit, but it's a better option than letting the engine drag you over. In fact, if you've got gobs of excess power, that may be a decent option if you've got excess and are say, at pattern altitude where you can make the field engine out or at cruise. On an Apache, probably not an issue, and on that twin, letting it turn towards the dead engine might not be a bad idea to reduce drag, since Vysse is probably best rate-of-least-going-down. (Hee Hee, I love that term.) More rudder would be needed turning into the dead motor, I dare to say. Perhaps someone better qualified than I could give some input. But here is why I say that: In a perfectly normal situation, maintaining an equilibrium-turn to the left requires some right aileron and rudder. Or we may say that if the rudder and aileron are kept neutral, after the inertia of the roll motion has been arrested, the plane would roll over to the left into a spiral because of the higher lift of the outboard wing due to the higher velocity, which is only one of many causes. Let's for the sake of this argument call this tendency the Natural Tendency to roll further into a turn. Assume for a moment that we do not use the rudder in the following situation at all, and let's assume the right engine is feathered, and let's assume also that the plane is in a left-hand turn into the live motor. The live engine on the inboard side (lower wing) will tend to roll the plane back to level and if not countered, all the way over to the right and into a spiral the opposite direction of the original turn. It stands to reason, then, that the net drag-effect of maintaining an equilibrium turn into the live engine can be determined by the following formula: The Natural Tendency to roll further into the turn MINUS the effort of the live engine to roll the plane over in the opposite direction. Another factor that will reduce the amount of required rudder-drag, is the high wing's tendency to resist going down because of the higher angle of attack induced as soon as the wing moves down on the approaching air. So, the live motor will have a harder time overcoming the high, opposite, wing. But the high wing can only resist when a rolling motion is persistent and some time would be required for it to resist the live motor, increasing as the rolling motion accelerates. So, in an equilibrium-turn this would only be a factor when disturbances are corrected. But it will be a factor if you turn into the dead motor. There are factors of reduced drag on an upcoming-wing and increase drag on a down-going wing that also play a part, not all necessarily productive to asymmetrical flight. The main threat is having the live motor less than 90 degrees off the vertical, which affords one less time and more control input to recover than when the live motor is more than 90 degrees from the vertical. If, however, the pilot chooses to turn the plane to the right, into the dead motor, the same Natural Tendency to roll further to the right due to the higher velocity of the left wing (it now being the outboard wing) PLUS the effort of the live motor must be overcome by the rudder, which is much, much more than turning into the live motor. This results in more rudder input and higher drag, and less available rudder travel than a turn into the live motor. The example above speaks of a left-live engine, which on most twins is the critical motor. The reason it is better having the critical engine to operate with is that the DIFFERENCE between the torque of the critical motor and the roll motion of asymmetrical thrust is what has to be overcome by rudder input. If the live motor is not the critical motor, then the SUM OF the torque of the live engine and the roll motion has to be overcome, aggravating turning into the dead engine. (Usually the number one engine is the critical engine unless you find yourself in an Eastern European wrong-turning-engined-airplane. Counter-rotating engines does not have this problem.) Torque is only one of the considerations in critical versus non-critical engine failure. Add to that the risk of much less time needed to flip the plane over when the killer motor sits above you, especially when turning final in turbulent conditions -- when one can easily experience weather-induced roll motions of more than 15 or 20 degrees -- and you are in serious trouble at 500' AGL or you are at best venturing on the very edge of a journey more permanent than planned. Panic-recovery control inputs when the live motor goes beyond the straight up position could be more than your plane could aerodynamically handle and an aileron stall or running out of rudder travel will move the runway an eternity away. No, folks, I believe in turning into the live motor even if it means going into some airspace that'll have me in hot water when I have the luxury of my AOPA-lawyer present, or a beer in my hand and my family at home watching TV or something. The only time that I will even consider turning into the dead motor will be when turning the other way will certainly kill me, or when I have ample speed while descending making the issue irrelevant. That's what I believe in the subject, folks, so, if you think I am wrong, the time to tell me is now. Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Nico; Am I missing something? How in the world do you make a "coordinated turn" or for that matter, any maneuver including straight and level when you have an engine out in a twin or 'non-asymmetrical thrust', your needle and ball will be so far out of center, which in my opinion is very much of a skid and added drag. That is what Vmc is about, enough airflow over the control surface to maintain control in all three axis. AND if you can maintain control and you have sufficient thrust, you should be land safely. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;rcbullock(at)cox.net Sent: 9/11/02 9:02:51 PM Subject: Re: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Hi Bob, I agree, but I was trying to give a perspective of 'all things being equal' and not plug into the situation many variables, such as the effort required to turn, but rather maintain an equilibrium-turn, and so on. Initiating a turn has its own problems but a coordinated turn requires more rudder input into the dead engine than into the live one, regardless of horsepower. Using the asymmetrical thrust to yaw the plane into a dead-engine turn comes down to airmanship and handling the emergency, but that does not address the dangers of a dead-engine turn when a tighter circuit is flown, perhaps out of need (such as in an Apache -- I know I did my ME in one, which the next student crashed. I have pictures of the wreck showing the critical motor feathered! The student misidentified the shut-down engine and inadvertently feathered the good engine. That settled that. Both the student and instructor were sewn up and are flying again. - A bit of good news.) There are more factors that favor turning into the live engine and that is the higher thrust on the down-going blade of the propeller, which puts the higher thrust on the critical engine closer to the center line of the fuselage and further away from the center line on the no. 2 engine. So, the evidence just mounts up. Thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Bullock To: Nico van Niekerk Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Well, doesn't turning into the live motor require a lot of rudder in a Commander (high power engines), and doesn't it also put the airplane into an uncoordinated turn, which creates drag, which reduces the excess power available to climb or maintain level? I.e., bank is minimal and you are using rudder to control the turning tendency, i.e. a skid? Maintaining blue line and then putting the aircraft into a slip of sorts is counterproductive to some degree. You can let the aircraft turn into the dead engine I think, just keep it under control. I think this might be a good experiment at altitude. See turning which way gives the best results in your particular plane for each engine inop. As a last resort, you could chop power to the live engine if it goes too far. Most people don't think about that one. Then you become a glider for a bit, but it's a better option than letting the engine drag you over. In fact, if you've got gobs of excess power, that may be a decent op tion if you've got excess and are say, at pattern altitude where you can make the field engine out or at cruise. On an Apache, probably not an issue, and on that twin, letting it turn towards the dead engine might not be a bad idea to reduce drag, since Vysse is probably best rate-of-least-going-down. (Hee Hee, I love that term.) More rudder would be needed turning into the dead motor, I dare to say. Perhaps someone better qualified than I could give some input. But here is why I say that: In a perfectly normal situation, maintaining an equilibrium-turn to the left requires some right aileron and rudder. Or we may say that if the rudder and aileron are kept neutral, after the inertia of the roll motion has been arrested, the plane would roll over to the left into a spiral because of the higher lift of the outboard wing due to the higher velocity, which is only one of many causes. Let's for the sake of this argument call this tendency the Natural Tendency to roll further into a turn. Assume for a moment that we do not use the rudder in the following situation at all, and let's assume the right engine is feathered, and let's assume also that the plane is in a left-hand turn into the live motor. The live engine on the inboard side (lower wing) will tend to roll the plane back to level and if not countered, all the way over to the right and into a spiral the opposite direction of the original turn. It stands to reason, then, that the net drag-effect of maintaining an equilibrium turn into the live engine can be determined by the following formula: The Natural Tendency to roll further into the turn MINUS the effort of the live engine to roll the plane over in the opposite direction. Another factor that will reduce the amount of required rudder-drag, is the high wing's tendency to resist going down because of the higher angle of attack induced as soon as the wing moves down on the approaching air. So, the live motor will have a harder time overcoming the high, opposite, wing. But the high wing can only resist when a rolling motion is persistent and some time would be required for it to resist the live motor, increasing as the rolling motion accelerates. So, in an equilibrium-turn this would only be a factor when disturbances are corrected. But it will be a factor if you turn into the dead motor. There are factors of reduced drag on an upcoming-wing and increase drag on a down-going wing that also play a part, not all necessarily productive to asymmetrical flight. The main threat is having the live motor less than 90 degrees off the vertical, which affords one less time and more control input to recover than when the live motor is more than 90 degrees from the vertical. If, however, the pilot chooses to turn the plane to the right, into the dead motor, the same Natural Tendency to roll further to the right due to the higher velocity of the left wing (it now being the outboard wing) PLUS the effort of the live motor must be overcome by the rudder, which is much, much more than turning into the live motor. This results in more rudder input and higher drag, and less available rudder travel than a turn into the live motor. The example above speaks of a left-live engine, which on most twins is the critical motor. The reason it is better having the critical engine to operate with is that the DIFFERENCE between the torque of the critical motor and the roll motion of asymmetrical thrust is what has to be overcome by rudder input. If the live motor is not the critical motor, then the SUM OF the torque of the live engine and the roll motion has to be overcome, aggravating turning into the dead engine. (Usually the number one engine is the critical engine unless you find yourself in an Eastern European wrong-turning-engined-airplane. Counter-rotating engines does not have this problem.) Torque is only one of the considerations in critical versus non-critical engine failure. Add to that the risk of much less time needed to flip the plane over when the killer motor sits above you, especially when turning final in turbulent conditions -- when one can easily experience weather-induced roll motions of more than 15 or 20 degrees -- and you are in serious trouble at 500' AGL or you are at best venturing on the very edge of a journey more permanent than planned. Panic-recovery control inputs when the live motor goes beyond the straight up position could be more than your plane could aerodynamically handle and an aileron stall or running out of rudder travel will move the runway an eternity away. No, folks, I believe in turning into the live motor even if it means going into some airspace that'll have me in hot water when I have the luxury of my AOPA-lawyer present, or a beer in my hand and my family at home watching TV or something. The only time that I will even consider turning into the dead motor will be when turning the other way will certainly kill me, or when I have ample speed while descending making the issue irrelevant. That's what I believe in the subject, folks, so, if you think I am wrong, the time to tell me is now. Thanks Nico --- Lowell Girod --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net --- Twin Commander 560 E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
In a message dated 09/11/02 14:49:19 Pacific Daylight Time, whiteslave(at)cox.net writes: > However, turning into the dead > engine isn't a big deal IF you fly the pattern wide enough, and IF you > keep your speed well above MCA. I'd like to hear WCG's thoughts on this > one... > Nice work, Moe. To all with flat nacelles: Don't forget cowl flaps on your clean-up. Unless you're in a Mr. RPM conversion that eliminates cowl flaps, you have tons of drag from those "spoilers," and I've found them to be all but ingnored during one engine inoperative practice. On to the turns towards a dead or alive engine. I believe you have a choice in Ted Smith products. (Aero Commander / Aero Star) I found turning into dead engines on brand B, C, and P to very bad indeed, as bank angle would soon get out of control. While it may be true that there could be less performance penalty turning into a dead engine (interesting concept, never heard it suggested before), conventional wisdom is NOT to do so, due to controllability problems. Now, a few more questions for Moe. Did you have time to feather the inoperative engine and/or would it feather? At your weight and the DENALT you report, you should have had a comfortable climb gradient in the 680FP. Also, for the 680FP /FLP operators, the 3000 psi hydraulic pumps (New York Airbrake, mfg.) rob approximately 35 horse power per engine. It's another detail to handle just when you don't need to, but turning the environmental system off under O.E.I. or high-DENALT take offs if important. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Hi Don, My intention was to focus on what was the best-practice maneuver, turning into the dead engine or the live one. I was speaking about an equilibrium-turn, which means that the aircraft experiences zero accelleration, regardless of skidding or the ball and needle off center. When I spoke about a coordinated turn, I was trying to explain that under normal circumstances, with both engines running, the pilot has to apply opposite aileron and rudder to maintain a coordinated turn. That high-lighted the forces that act opposite to the tendency of the live engine to roll the plane in the opposite direction. The same force will assist (not counter) the rolling tendency of the live engine if a turn is made into the dead engine. You are not missing something, I just wasn't on the same page with you but rather spoke about another part of the engine-out problem. Just as a matter of interest, asymmetrical thrust is with one enigine out. Symmetrical thrust is with both engines running, so there is no such a thing as non-asymmetrical thrust. :-) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: Lowell Girod To: Nico van Niekerk Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Nico; Am I missing something? How in the world do you make a "coordinated turn" or for that matter, any maneuver including straight and level when you have an engine out in a twin or 'non-asymmetrical thrust', your needle and ball will be so far out of center, which in my opinion is very much of a skid and added drag. That is what Vmc is about, enough airflow over the control surface to maintain control in all three axis. AND if you can maintain control and you have sufficient thrust, you should be land safely. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Nico van Niekerk To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;rcbullock(at)cox.net Sent: 9/11/02 9:02:51 PM Subject: Re: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Hi Bob, I agree, but I was trying to give a perspective of 'all things being equal' and not plug into the situation many variables, such as the effort required to turn, but rather maintain an equilibrium-turn, and so on. Initiating a turn has its own problems but a coordinated turn requires more rudder input into the dead engine than into the live one, regardless of horsepower. Using the asymmetrical thrust to yaw the plane into a dead-engine turn comes down to airmanship and handling the emergency, but that does not address the dangers of a dead-engine turn when a tighter circuit is flown, perhaps out of need (such as in an Apache -- I know I did my ME in one, which the next student crashed. I have pictures of the wreck showing the critical motor feathered! The student misidentified the shut-down engine and inadvertently feathered the good engine. That settled that. Both the student and instructor were sewn up and are flying again. - A bit of good news.) There are more factors that favor turning into the live engine and that is the higher thrust on the down-going blade of the propeller, which puts the higher thrust on the critical engine closer to the center line of the fuselage and further away from the center line on the no. 2 engine. So, the evidence just mounts up. Thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Bullock To: Nico van Niekerk Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Well, doesn't turning into the live motor require a lot of rudder in a Commander (high power engines), and doesn't it also put the airplane into an uncoordinated turn, which creates drag, which reduces the excess power available to climb or maintain level? I.e., bank is minimal and you are using rudder to control the turning tendency, i.e. a skid? Maintaining blue line and then putting the aircraft into a slip of sorts is counterproductive to some degree. You can let the aircraft turn into the dead engine I think, just keep it under control. I think this might be a good experiment at altitude. See turning which way gives the best results in your particular plane for each engine inop. As a last resort, you could chop power to the live engine if it goes too far. Most people don't think about that one. Then you become a glider for a bit, but it's a better option than letting the engine drag you over. In fact, if you've got gobs of excess power, that may be a decent op tion if you've got excess and are say, at pattern altitude where you can make the field engine out or at cruise. On an Apache, probably not an issue, and on that twin, letting it turn towards the dead engine might not be a bad idea to reduce drag, since Vysse is probably best rate-of-least-going-down. (Hee Hee, I love that term.) More rudder would be needed turning into the dead motor, I dare to say. Perhaps someone better qualified than I could give some input. But here is why I say that: In a perfectly normal situation, maintaining an equilibrium-turn to the left requires some right aileron and rudder. Or we may say that if the rudder and aileron are kept neutral, after the inertia of the roll motion has been arrested, the plane would roll over to the left into a spiral because of the higher lift of the outboard wing due to the higher velocity, which is only one of many causes. Let's for the sake of this argument call this tendency the Natural Tendency to roll further into a turn. Assume for a moment that we do not use the rudder in the following situation at all, and let's assume the right engine is feathered, and let's assume also that the plane is in a left-hand turn into the live motor. The live engine on the inboard side (lower wing) will tend to roll the plane back to level and if not countered, all the way over to the right and into a spiral the opposite direction of the original turn. It stands to reason, then, that the net drag-effect of maintaining an equilibrium turn into the live engine can be determined by the following formula: The Natural Tendency to roll further into the turn MINUS the effort of the live engine to roll the plane over in the opposite direction. Another factor that will reduce the amount of required rudder-drag, is the high wing's tendency to resist going down because of the higher angle of attack induced as soon as the wing moves down on the approaching air. So, the live motor will have a harder time overcoming the high, opposite, wing. But the high wing can only resist when a rolling motion is persistent and some time would be required for it to resist the live motor, increasing as the rolling motion accelerates. So, in an equilibrium-turn this would only be a factor when disturbances are corrected. But it will be a factor if you turn into the dead motor. There are factors of reduced drag on an upcoming-wing and increase drag on a down-going wing that also play a part, not all necessarily productive to asymmetrical flight. The main threat is having the live motor less than 90 degrees off the vertical, which affords one less time and more control input to recover than when the live motor is more than 90 degrees from the vertical. If, however, the pilot chooses to turn the plane to the right, into the dead motor, the same Natural Tendency to roll further to the right due to the higher velocity of the left wing (it now being the outboard wing) PLUS the effort of the live motor must be overcome by the rudder, which is much, much more than turning into the live motor. This results in more rudder input and higher drag, and less available rudder travel than a turn into the live motor. The example above speaks of a left-live engine, which on most twins is the critical motor. The reason it is better having the critical engine to operate with is that the DIFFERENCE between the torque of the critical motor and the roll motion of asymmetrical thrust is what has to be overcome by rudder input. If the live motor is not the critical motor, then the SUM OF the torque of the live engine and the roll motion has to be overcome, aggravating turning into the dead engine. (Usually the number one engine is the critical engine unless you find yourself in an Eastern European wrong-turning-engined-airplane. Counter-rotating engines does not have this problem.) Torque is only one of the considerations in critical versus non-critical engine failure. Add to that the risk of much less time needed to flip the plane over when the killer motor sits above you, especially when turning final in turbulent conditions -- when one can easily experience weather-induced roll motions of more than 15 or 20 degrees -- and you are in serious trouble at 500' AGL or you are at best venturing on the very edge of a journey more permanent than planned. Panic-recovery control inputs when the live motor goes beyond the straight up position could be more than your plane could aerodynamically handle and an aileron stall or running out of rudder travel will move the runway an eternity away. No, folks, I believe in turning into the live motor even if it means going into some airspace that'll have me in hot water when I have the luxury of my AOPA-lawyer present, or a beer in my hand and my family at home watching TV or something. The only time that I will even consider turning into the dead motor will be when turning the other way will certainly kill me, or when I have ample speed while descending making the issue irrelevant. That's what I believe in the subject, folks, so, if you think I am wrong, the time to tell me is now. Thanks Nico --- Lowell Girod --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net --- Twin Commander 560 E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 2002
From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Just as a matter of interest, asymmetrical thrust is with one enigine out. Symmetrical thrust is with both engines running, so there is no such a thing as non-asymmetrical thrust. :-) Nico Is this one of those "irregardless" things? :>) bilbo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 2002
From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
Yup. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bow To: Nico van Niekerk ; dongirod(at)earthlink.net Cc: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 5:03 AM Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF Just as a matter of interest, asymmetrical thrust is with one enigine out. Symmetrical thrust is with both engines running, so there is no such a thing as non-asymmetrical thrust. :-) Nico Is this one of those "irregardless" things? :>) bilbo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 2002
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: ENGINE OUT ON TAKE OFF
In a message dated 9/11/2002 11:46:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes: > Also, for the 680FP /FLP operators, the 3000 psi hydraulic pumps (New York > Airbrake, mfg.) rob approximately 35 horse power per engine. It's another > detail to handle just when you don't need to, but turning the environmental > system off under O.E.I. or high-DENALT take offs if important. Excellent work wing commander. I never would have thought about that one. But then again I have never flown or trained on a 680 fl/flp either. It's never been a factor in any of the brand B, C, or P airplanes that I flew, or the 685 either. They all use bleed air off of the turbos. I dare say that 35 H.P. could easily save the day if you remembered to turn off the press. GOOD SHOW!!! JetPaul


July 08, 2002 - September 12, 2002

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