Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ar
October 23, 2002 - November 07, 2002
Is the temp and pressure normal?
bilbo
N78379 a 500A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What do you think about ADF's? |
[Unable to display image]
Different strokes for different pilots. One likes a ADF the other doesn't -
all depends on what you are use to. Another comparasion a stormscope vs
actual radar. I recently removed this complete ADF system. If anyone is
interested, make an offer plus shipping. However, the following should be
taken into consideration, before deciding to install an ADF:
Ant. - 7 lbs
Head - 2 lbs
Dynaverter - 3.5 lbs
Receiver - 6.5 lbs
RMI - 2 lbs
Wiring - 3 lbs
Total Wt. - 24 lbs
Are you sure you wouldn't like to have a good IFR GPS that will do it all for
years into the future? You know what opinions are like - this is mine.
Cap'n Spray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
Dr. Milt,
You are absolutely correct. They are just too expensive to keep in
operation. Maybe not compared to the GPS satellites, but I'll bet that the
satellites take preference.
Cap'n Spray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What do you think about ADF's? |
Entertainment, whatever form it may take, is for the passengers. The pilot
should be paying attention to his/her job.
Cap'n Spray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What do you think about ADF's? |
>From: Bow <w.bow(at)att.net>
>To: JETPAUL(at)aol.com, tylorh(at)sound.net, rcbullock(at)cox.net,
>commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Re: What do you think about ADF's?
>Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:54:18 -0400
>This is from the 74 pilot who was going to turn around after the fly-in!!!
>GOTTT-CHAAAA!!!
>
>The ADF is a great SA tool. (Situational Awareness). However one the first
>things that my dad told my about ADF's is that the most usefull button on
>the contraption is the "TEST" switch. Constatnly use it to slew the needle
>away from the station, and make sure it returns. In the failure that I
>had, The ident was loud and clear, but the needle stayed steady at 2
>O'Clock.
>
>I have a King model and the neatest thing about mine is the timer. It
>keeps track of the elapsed time from out to in and off to on.
>
>I doubt I would replace mine if something happened to it.
>
>
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Sneed <srglenn1(at)msn.com> |
And don't forget, GPS is brought to by US Department of Defense.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: CapnSpray(at)aol.com
To: n414c(at)direcway.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: ADFs
Dr. Milt,
You are absolutely correct. They are just too expensive to keep in operation.
Maybe not compared to the GPS satellites, but I'll bet that the satellites
take preference.
Cap'n Spray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 10/23/2002 5:27:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> My hyd. pressure runs above 1000 PSI.
>
> Is the temp and pressure normal?
>
>
I don't think the temp is problem, but the pressure might be. There is an
unloader valve that should return all pressure above 1000 to the tank. What
kind of pressure are you seeing??, and is it the same when you first turn on
the master and you only have electric pumps.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What do you think about ADF's? |
On Wednesday, October 23, 2002, at 11:49 AM, JETPAUL(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> The ADF is a great SA tool. (Situational Awareness).
I'm being serious here, is there anything an ADF provides that a GPS
doesn't, other than AM radio? Seems to me a hand held GPS and an MP3
player fit the bill better, and you can get them both for the same price
as an ADF....
Enlighten me...
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
Nico and all,
The ADF goes back well before WWI1, although you could argue about just how
"automatic" some of the early Bendix and Marconi ( in UK) really were,
giving a bearing 180 degrees out was common until about 60's. The ADF in my
T-28 weigh something over 70 LBS.
If you line up all the shortcomings of an ADF, sky wave/ground wave/night
effect/same sunrise-sunset problems as HF, coastal refraction, mountain
reflection, DFing the nearest Cb/Ts ( tune to about 270/300 kcs for the
best bearing on a big storm) quadrantal error up to 15 degrees at 25
degrees angle of bank in a B707, etc etc etc, and then in this day and age,
said "hey, this would make a great aircraft navigation aid", you would be
laughed out of the office of any aviation regulator ------ but!!!
aaaah, the fun of a fixed card ADF NDB letdown in a howling wind, the
invention of the RMI (almost) made it easy.
When I got my first full time job, we were told in tech. school that the
ADF was on the way out, 36 years later it has just cost a small fortune for
Qantas to fit ADF's to B737-800's, despite the very latest full house AC
90-45A FMCS/IRS/GPS gear, because CASA ( the Campaign Against Safe
Aviation) "said so".
Having said all that, listening to 1500 near PHNL helps pass the time on a
15 hour leg, and for us 'wot 'ave bin around for a while, we always know
what to expect, the program hasn't changed in 35 years.
Don't be lulled into a false sense of security by GPS, but what a vast
improvement.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton.
>How come I get the impression that it's the guys without IFR GPS that
>clings to the ADF?
>The same thing happened after WW2 when the seat-of-the-pants jocks had to
>adapt to NDB and other fancy electronic aids or get out of the front seat.
>Many did. Oh, how time flies. (Pun intended.)
>Nico
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:srglenn1(at)msn.com>Glenn Sneed
>To: CapnSpray(at)aol.com ;
>n414c(at)direcway.com ;
>commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:08 PM
>Subject: Re: ADFs
>
>And don't forget, GPS is brought to by US Department of Defense.
>Glenn
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:CapnSpray(at)aol.com>CapnSpray(at)aol.com
>To: n414c(at)direcway.com ;
>commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:35 PM
>Subject: Re: ADFs
>
>Dr. Milt,
>You are absolutely correct. They are just too expensive to keep in
>operation. Maybe not compared to the GPS satellites, but I'll bet that
>the satellites take preference.
>Cap'n Spray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
I know this is old school v. new school, wet behind the ears v. savvy
veteran, etc. Call me crazy, but I'd rather shoot an instrument
approach with a Garmin 295 (it has all the IFR navaids, ya know) than an
ADF. Not that I would, of course.........
As for not flying an approach with an Mp3 player, you should probably
look into getting some recurrent training.
Cheers,
Barry
On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 06:15 AM, Robert Bullock wrote:
> Well if you are like me, and only have a single Com/Nav, then an ADF is
> a backup for an approach, and I think that you can perhaps get weather
> over them too, like HIWAS, but I'd have to review on that. Perhaps some
> are an RCO too, but that might all be VHF stuff.
>
> Most importantly, last I checked, you could not fly an approach with an
> MP3 player or $69 Target special handheld GPS.
>
> Would I buy an ADF if I didn't have one? Probably not. Would I keep one
> in my panel if it was working, oh yeah. Would I replace a broken one?
> Depends on the cost. Antennae are already there, hopefully that would
> be a slide in replacement.
>
>
>> I'm being serious here, is there anything an ADF provides that a GPS
>> doesn't, other than AM radio? Seems to me a hand held GPS and an MP3
>> player fit the bill better, and you can get them both for the same
>> price
>> as an ADF....
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: ADF v. handheld |
Have you never seen your GPS indicating an error greater than a mile? You
bet you have.
Now if you know any airports with a mile wide runway then maybe no ADF.
Tom..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 08:52
Subject: ADF v. handheld
> I know this is old school v. new school, wet behind the ears v. savvy
> veteran, etc. Call me crazy, but I'd rather shoot an instrument
> approach with a Garmin 295 (it has all the IFR navaids, ya know) than an
> ADF. Not that I would, of course.........
>
> As for not flying an approach with an Mp3 player, you should probably
> look into getting some recurrent training.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 06:15 AM, Robert Bullock wrote:
>
> > Well if you are like me, and only have a single Com/Nav, then an ADF is
> > a backup for an approach, and I think that you can perhaps get weather
> > over them too, like HIWAS, but I'd have to review on that. Perhaps some
> > are an RCO too, but that might all be VHF stuff.
> >
> > Most importantly, last I checked, you could not fly an approach with an
> > MP3 player or $69 Target special handheld GPS.
> >
> > Would I buy an ADF if I didn't have one? Probably not. Would I keep one
> > in my panel if it was working, oh yeah. Would I replace a broken one?
> > Depends on the cost. Antennae are already there, hopefully that would
> > be a slide in replacement.
> >
> >
> >> I'm being serious here, is there anything an ADF provides that a GPS
> >> doesn't, other than AM radio? Seems to me a hand held GPS and an MP3
> >> player fit the bill better, and you can get them both for the same
> >> price
> >> as an ADF....
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Hindmarsh <todd(at)inpnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: ADF v. handheld |
How many people actually encounter NDB's? Where I am, it's all VOR w/
LOC & GS for IAP. I have heard that Texas is chock full of NDB's, but
I've never been able to fly with one so ADF's are all theory to me.
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher [mailto:tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:31 AM
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: ADF v. handheld
Have you never seen your GPS indicating an error greater than a mile?
You
bet you have.
Now if you know any airports with a mile wide runway then maybe no ADF.
Tom..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 08:52
Subject: ADF v. handheld
> I know this is old school v. new school, wet behind the ears v. savvy
> veteran, etc. Call me crazy, but I'd rather shoot an instrument
> approach with a Garmin 295 (it has all the IFR navaids, ya know) than
an
> ADF. Not that I would, of course.........
>
> As for not flying an approach with an Mp3 player, you should probably
> look into getting some recurrent training.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 06:15 AM, Robert Bullock wrote:
>
> > Well if you are like me, and only have a single Com/Nav, then an ADF
is
> > a backup for an approach, and I think that you can perhaps get
weather
> > over them too, like HIWAS, but I'd have to review on that. Perhaps
some
> > are an RCO too, but that might all be VHF stuff.
> >
> > Most importantly, last I checked, you could not fly an approach with
an
> > MP3 player or $69 Target special handheld GPS.
> >
> > Would I buy an ADF if I didn't have one? Probably not. Would I keep
one
> > in my panel if it was working, oh yeah. Would I replace a broken
one?
> > Depends on the cost. Antennae are already there, hopefully that
would
> > be a slide in replacement.
> >
> >
> >> I'm being serious here, is there anything an ADF provides that a
GPS
> >> doesn't, other than AM radio? Seems to me a hand held GPS and an
MP3
> >> player fit the bill better, and you can get them both for the same
> >> price
> >> as an ADF....
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
'Have you never seen your GPS indicating an error greater than a mile? You
bet you have.
Now if you know any airports with a mile wide runway then maybe no ADF.'
Tom..
I have also seen ADF's point at the largest thunderstorms I have ever seen. Think
it all comes down to knowing the limitations of your equipment. Only time
I remember seeing a large 'percentage of error' was at twilight, same problems
I get with Loran and skip.
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- Twin Commander 560 E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal Thomas |
CommanderLand;
I got and thought it worth passing on. Christian in nature but I have seen
and heard a lot of Good Christian remarks on this Chat list.
Don
Subject: Interview
This quote is from an interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal
Thomas.
People are always asking me (Cal Thomas) if there are good leaders in
Washington. There are. There are quite a few, but you don't often hear
about
them because many of them aren't engaging in scandalous or self-serving
activities. One such good person is Attorney General John Ashcroft. I had
the
pleasure of interviewing him again this week for a column I'm writing..
During the interview, Ashcroft said something so profound, I wanted to
share
it with you. The Attorney General of the United States said :
"Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for
him. Christianity is a faith in which God sent his Son to die for you."
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- Twin Commander 560 E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ADF v. handheld |
On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 09:30 AM, Tom Fisher wrote:
> Have you never seen your GPS indicating an error greater than a mile?
> You
> bet you have.
> Now if you know any airports with a mile wide runway then maybe no ADF.
I know a lot of airports with a mile wide runway. Even with Clevelands,
however, I just don't know if I can get that Commander stopped in 150
feet.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
> Only time I remember seeing a large 'percentage of error' was at
> twilight, same problems I get with Loran and skip.
>
Speaking of Loran, I have an Apollo Loran that is in good shape, tray
included. Anyone interested make an offer before I put it on Ebay...
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal |
Thomas
AMEN!
Although that is perhaps a more accurate description of radical Islam...
Barry
On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 10:14 AM, Lowell Girod wrote:
>
> CommanderLand;
> I got and thought it worth passing on. Christian in nature but I
> have seen and heard a lot of Good Christian remarks on this Chat list.
> Don
>
>
> Subject: Interview
>
> This quote is from an interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by
> Cal
> Thomas.
>
> People are always asking me (Cal Thomas) if there are good leaders in
> Washington. There are. There are quite a few, but you don't often hear
> about
> them because many of them aren't engaging in scandalous or self-serving
> activities. One such good person is Attorney General John Ashcroft. I
> had
> the
> pleasure of interviewing him again this week for a column I'm writing..
> During the interview, Ashcroft said something so profound, I wanted to
> share
> it with you. The Attorney General of the United States said :
>
> "Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die
> for
> him. Christianity is a faith in which God sent his Son to die for
> you."
>
> --- Lowell Girod
> --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
> --- Twin Commander 560 E
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
Have you never seen your GPS indicating an error greater than a mile? You
bet you have.
>>Yes when RAIM was not available or there was a GPS notam.
How many people actually encounter NDB's? Where I am, it's all VOR w/
LOC & GS for IAP. I have heard that Texas is chock full of NDB's, but
I've never been able to fly with one so ADF's are all theory to me.
Todd
>>>I regularly flew an NDB approach into HSA my home base until the last chart
update when they allowed a GPS overlay. Since then the NDP has gone TU and no
one is in a hurry to repair it.
There is also an NDB (G-Route across the GULF of Mexico between New Orleans and
The Tampa area that I use frequently.
However if my ADF ever goes TU I will remove it and not replace it, relying on
GPS instead.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal |
Thomas
In a message dated 10/24/02 10:29:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
dongirod(at)earthlink.net writes:
> CommanderLand;
> I got and thought it worth passing on. Christian in nature but I have
> seen and heard a lot of Good Christian remarks on this Chat list.
> Don
>
Good question. I am a believer in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and
Savior, Anybody else on the list as blessed?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ADF v. handheld |
In a message dated 10/24/02 9:09:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
radialpower(at)cox.net writes:
> I know this is old school v. new school, wet behind the ears v. savvy
> veteran, etc. Call me crazy, but I'd rather shoot an instrument
> approach with a Garmin 295 (it has all the IFR navaids, ya know) than an
> ADF. Not that I would, of course.........
AMEN. The best ADF approach ever flown in the most perfect weather conditions
ever encountered gives new meaning to "Non-presision"! I have flown many for
real NDB approaches into my old home town, (Nampa, ID) in the Duke. It was
befor the age of loran and GPS was not even thought of. These were
very......exciting...... and only successful a handful of times (although I
was often told by those on the airport that I flew "We heard you fly Right
over the top of us") requiring a flight to my alternat, BOI and an ILS.
Legal or not, I am not going to instal and ADF and will have no
problem flying an NDB approach using my VFR Skymap 3C GPS..... It is light
years more accurate, dependable and is the best HSI I have ever seen. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal |
Thomas
Yes I am and I have not regretted my commitment to Christ.
Glenn Sneed
-----Original Message-----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com [mailto:YOURTCFG(at)aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:37 PM
To: dongirod(at)earthlink.net; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal Thomas
In a message dated 10/24/02 10:29:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
dongirod(at)earthlink.net writes:
CommanderLand;
I got and thought it worth passing on. Christian in nature but I have
seen and heard a lot of Good Christian remarks on this Chat list.
Don
Good question. I am a believer in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and
Savior, Anybody else on the list as blessed?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: ADF v. handheld |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:29
Subject: Re: ADF v. handheld
>
> On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 09:30 AM, Tom Fisher wrote:
>
> > Have you never seen your GPS indicating an error greater than a mile?
> > You
> > bet you have.
> > Now if you know any airports with a mile wide runway then maybe no ADF.
>
> I know a lot of airports with a mile wide runway. Even with Clevelands,
> however, I just don't know if I can get that Commander stopped in 150
> feet.
>
> Barry
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
The ADF you described is my favorite type of ADF (I like to have one of each actually).
I had an approach in a Baron on an overcast night alone and ran into St. Elmos
fire for the first time in my life, the windshield was arcing all around the perimeter
of it. lasted for about 30 seconds.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Bill Hamilton
Cc: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:55
Subject: Re: ADFs
I used to fly up the (more or less) west coast of Africa on a regular basis.
There is a stretch of about 200 miles where there are no signals of any kind.
To maintain some SA during the boring hours of the 5.5 hr flight, I would tune
in to NDB's ahead of me. This ADF still had the round dial with the different
bands behind a piece of plexiglass. When it became time to tune into a military
NDB way up north, I picked up a strong signal, while turning the knob, from
an NDB that I didn't recognize. After consulting my little black book, it turned
out to be a signal from an NDB about 1,000 miles away, but the needle pointed
out to sea. You guys probably know what total darkness, overcast, no ground
lights, and no one else on board, can do to one's state of mind, if a rogue
instrument tells you you are heading in the wrong direction.
(Incidentally, that's also the time you hear cylinders misfire, noises in the
luggage compartment, props go out of sync, pistons knock, etc. It's a good thing
a lone pilot doesn't pick up St. Elmo's fire on a first night flight over
such a lonely stretch. LOOK, MA, I DITCHED A GOOD PLANE 'CUZ THE PROPS WERE ON
FIRE! That'll be something.)
Fortunately I knew the route well and stayed on course. The needle did not behave
is it should if it pointed directly to a beacon, which confirmed that it
must've been a harmonic signal. (is there still such a phrase, or was there ever?).
The signal remained strong for about 20 minutes or so when it suddenly disappeared.
That poor signal must've bounced around in the atmosphere forever
and I just happened to drive right through it, I suppose.
Now that's something a GPS wouldn't do. Or would it?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hamilton
To: Nico van Niekerk
Cc: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: ADFs
Nico and all,
The ADF goes back well before WWI1, although you could argue about just how
"automatic" some of the early Bendix and Marconi ( in UK) really were, giving
a bearing 180 degrees out was common until about 60's. The ADF in my T-28 weigh
something over 70 LBS.
If you line up all the shortcomings of an ADF, sky wave/ground wave/night effect/same
sunrise-sunset problems as HF, coastal refraction, mountain reflection,
DFing the nearest Cb/Ts ( tune to about 270/300 kcs for the best bearing
on a big storm) quadrantal error up to 15 degrees at 25 degrees angle of bank
in a B707, etc etc etc, and then in this day and age, said "hey, this would make
a great aircraft navigation aid", you would be laughed out of the office of
any aviation regulator ------ but!!!
aaaah, the fun of a fixed card ADF NDB letdown in a howling wind, the invention
of the RMI (almost) made it easy.
When I got my first full time job, we were told in tech. school that the ADF
was on the way out, 36 years later it has just cost a small fortune for Qantas
to fit ADF's to B737-800's, despite the very latest full house AC 90-45A FMCS/IRS/GPS
gear, because CASA ( the Campaign Against Safe Aviation) "said so".
Having said all that, listening to 1500 near PHNL helps pass the time on a
15 hour leg, and for us 'wot 'ave bin around for a while, we always know what
to expect, the program hasn't changed in 35 years.
Don't be lulled into a false sense of security by GPS, but what a vast improvement.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton.
How come I get the impression that it's the guys without IFR GPS that clings
to the ADF?
The same thing happened after WW2 when the seat-of-the-pants jocks had to
adapt to NDB and other fancy electronic aids or get out of the front seat. Many
did. Oh, how time flies. (Pun intended.)
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Sneed
To: CapnSpray(at)aol.com ; n414c(at)direcway.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: ADFs
And don't forget, GPS is brought to by US Department of Defense.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: CapnSpray(at)aol.com
To: n414c(at)direcway.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: ADFs
Dr. Milt,
You are absolutely correct. They are just too expensive to keep in operation.
Maybe not compared to the GPS satellites, but I'll bet that the satellites
take preference.
Cap'n Spray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | MR. DICK WARTINGER |
HI KIDS.
It is with great sorrow that I tell you we have lost a great
man in Commanderland. Dick Watinger, founder of Commander Aero, passed away
yesterday. I have no details but will share information as I get it. Please
pray for his loved ones That God will comfort them in their loss.
Jim Metzger Director, Twin Commander Fligth Group
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal |
Thomas
In a message dated 10/24/02 12:10:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com writes:
> Yes I am and I have not regretted my commitment to Christ.
> Glenn Sneed
>
Amen .jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert C. Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ADF v. handheld |
There's an NDB approach here at the airport (OUN) which houses a university
flight school, Army Guard aviation det (fixed wing and helo), a busy part
141 school, and of course all sorts of other GA activity.
I shoot it every now and then and even take some turns in holding.
I assume you also meant VOR _OR_ LOC not VOR w/LOC. :)
Here's some review tidbit of the day. AIM says 3-6 degrees course width for
a localizer, whereas the VOR is 10 either side. SDF width of 6 _OR_ 12
degrees. LDA is pretty much the same as a localizer, but not aligned with
the runway. For example the one at Amarillo, KAMA, is like 22 degrees off or
something like that. It also has a glideslope, which makes it a precision
approach per the definition in the AIM. (Precision approaches have
electronic glideslope guidance.)
Also on the GPS for DME/ADF, if no one else mentioned it, the GPS does have
to be approved for terminal IFR operations to substitute for DME/ADF
approaches. AIM Para 1-1-21 (f)(6)(a). Also, per 1-1-21(e)(b) you must have
an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the
flight. So, to answer someone's future question, it doesn't look like you
can yank all those other nav solutions yet. This looks like it's counter to
requiring nav radios 'appropriate to the facilities used.' But like a lot of
FAA regs and docs, you have to look in more than one place to get the full
scoop.
> How many people actually encounter NDB's?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal |
Thomas
In a message dated 10/24/02 12:13:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> Yup, brother. Only way.
> Nico
>
Amen brother. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert C. Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ADF v. handheld |
I plan to land on one of those after I make my trip to the sun. It will be
ok since I'm going at night.
> > I know a lot of airports with a mile wide runway. Even with Clevelands,
> > however, I just don't know if I can get that Commander stopped in 150
> > feet.
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert C. Bullock <rcbullock(at)cox.net> |
Just so everyone knows, Apollo will give you a $500 trade in if you trade in your
Loran C towards a GX55. You just slide the GX55 in and replace the LORAN antenna
with a GPS antenna. Still, it's like $2000 or so with the trade in, and
the LORAN is already there. I don't have a huge heartache with the 800 series
(Flybuddy). Not enough to spend the 2g's on a GPS anyway when LORAN still works
for now.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: dongirod(at)earthlink.net
Cc: Commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: ADF vs. GPS
Only time I remember seeing a large 'percentage of error' was at twilight,
same problems I get with Loran and skip.
Speaking of Loran, I have an Apollo Loran that is in good shape, tray included.
Anyone interested make an offer before I put it on Ebay...
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
Gday all,
This is a truly sad time. We have all been incredibly blessed through our
great fortune in meeting and getting to know Dick.
Jimbob, please pass on our prayers to Dicks loved ones.
A very ordinary day in Commanderland.
Russell
On 25/10/02 5:34 AM, "YOURTCFG(at)aol.com" wrote:
> HI KIDS.
>
> It is with great sorrow that I tell you we have lost a great
> man in Commanderland. Dick Watinger, founder of Commander Aero, passed away
> yesterday. I have no details but will share information as I get it. Please
> pray for his loved ones That God will comfort them in their loss.
>
> Jim Metzger Director, Twin Commander Fligth Group
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
> Dick Watinger, founder of Commander Aero, passed away yesterday.
I am very sad to hear this news Jim. Although I could go on and on
about how much I respected Dick and enjoyed the time I got to spend with
him, I'll just say that the world needs more men like Mr Wartinger. He
was truely a gentleman and will me missed greatly.
Chris Schuermann
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
This is really sad news.
There cannot be many people in CommanderLand who come even close to the knowledge
that Dick possessed.
He was also such a nice person too.
Those who had the privilege to meet and talk to him will remember it for a long
time, I'm sure.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Cc: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:34 PM
Subject: MR. DICK WARTINGER
HI KIDS.
It is with great sorrow that I tell you we have lost a great man in Commanderland.
Dick Wartinger, founder of Commander Aero, passed away yesterday. I have
no details but will share information as I get it. Please pray for his loved
ones That God will comfort them in their loss.
Jim Metzger Director, Twin Commander Fligth Group
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
HI KIDS.
It is with great sorrow that I tell you we have lost a great man in
Commanderland. Dick Watinger, founder of Commander Aero, passed away yesterday.
I have no details but will share information as I get it. Please pray for
his loved ones That God will comfort them in their loss.
Jim Metzger Director, Twin Commander Fligth Group
In CAE I was loosing oil out of the right engine and said something to Dick about
it, in passing. He insisted we go out and look at it and It was a pretty good
walk out back to where it was parked. He took the time and effort, for free,
to checked it out and decided it was the front crankshaft seal. I thanked
him for his time and that was that. I put extra oil in and flew it home. I
changed the seal and all is well. He was right.
I am glad to have met Mr. Watinger. His picture could be in the dictionary next
to the words, gentleman, kind, polite, helpful, and just plane "nice guy"(I
know that's 2 words).
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
I know what you mean($500.00). Personally I will wait until my unit is worth nothing
and then buy what I want for the full price, which by then will have gone
up 10%.
bilbo
Just so everyone knows, Apollo will give you a $500 trade in if you trade in
your Loran C towards a GX55. You just slide the GX55 in and replace the LORAN
antenna with a GPS antenna. Still, it's like $2000 or so with the trade in, and
the LORAN is already there. I don't have a huge heartache with the 800 series
(Flybuddy). Not enough to spend the 2g's on a GPS anyway when LORAN still works
for now.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: dongirod(at)earthlink.net
Cc: Commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: ADF vs. GPS
Only time I remember seeing a large 'percentage of error' was at twilight,
same problems I get with Loran and skip.
Speaking of Loran, I have an Apollo Loran that is in good shape, tray included.
Anyone interested make an offer before I put it on Ebay...
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
In a message dated 10/24/02 3:47:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> I never had the opportunity to meet with Mr. Wartinger but I would like to
> express my condolences to his family and all who were close to him.
> Perhaps someone could publish a short history on his life so that we too
> can get a glimpse of what he meant to the people around him and to
> Commanders in general.
> Nico
>
THANKS NICO..Perhaps that might happen. Let me give you just one fact. The
original, prototype Commander flew with wooden, "aeroflight" propellers. It
was Dick Wartinger who installed the two bladed Hartzells on that airplane.
His history with Commanders starts and the beginning jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal |
Thomas
CommanderLand;
I got and thought it worth passing on. Christian in nature but I have seen
and heard a lot of Good Christian remarks on this Chat list.
Don
Good question. I am a believer in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior,
Anybody else on the list as blessed?? jb
I don't think Christian is quite the bad word it once was.
I'm In.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
Back in the 80's I was flying from JFK to San Juan PR. There was a Killer NDB
in PR. It was DDP, Dorado(Gold). One night before take off from JFK I tuned
in DDP, on the ground at JFK and the needle swung around and pointed straight
for PR.
Aside from that, I had a great uncle who worked for Pan American and was a Ham
Radio Operator. According to family lore he invented the Loop Antennae(Pan Am
got the credit). I have no Idea If it is true or not, but in a family of under
achievers it is a great story.
bilbo(set low goals and fail to achieve them)
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: Bill Hamilton
Cc: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: ADFs
I used to fly up the (more or less) west coast of Africa on a regular basis.
There is a stretch of about 200 miles where there are no signals of any kind.
To maintain some SA during the boring hours of the 5.5 hr flight, I would tune
in to NDB's ahead of me. This ADF still had the round dial with the different
bands behind a piece of plexiglass. When it became time to tune into a military
NDB way up north, I picked up a strong signal, while turning the knob, from
an NDB that I didn't recognize. After consulting my little black book, it turned
out to be a signal from an NDB about 1,000 miles away, but the needle pointed
out to sea. You guys probably know what total darkness, overcast, no ground
lights, and no one else on board, can do to one's state of mind, if a rogue
instrument tells you you are heading in the wrong direction.
(Incidentally, that's also the time you hear cylinders misfire, noises in the
luggage compartment, props go out of sync, pistons knock, etc. It's a good thing
a lone pilot doesn't pick up St. Elmo's fire on a first night flight over
such a lonely stretch. LOOK, MA, I DITCHED A GOOD PLANE 'CUZ THE PROPS WERE ON
FIRE! That'll be something.)
Fortunately I knew the route well and stayed on course. The needle did not behave
is it should if it pointed directly to a beacon, which confirmed that it
must've been a harmonic signal. (is there still such a phrase, or was there ever?).
The signal remained strong for about 20 minutes or so when it suddenly disappeared.
That poor signal must've bounced around in the atmosphere forever
and I just happened to drive right through it, I suppose.
Now that's something a GPS wouldn't do. Or would it?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hamilton
To: Nico van Niekerk
Cc: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: ADFs
Nico and all,
The ADF goes back well before WWI1, although you could argue about just how
"automatic" some of the early Bendix and Marconi ( in UK) really were, giving
a bearing 180 degrees out was common until about 60's. The ADF in my T-28 weigh
something over 70 LBS.
If you line up all the shortcomings of an ADF, sky wave/ground wave/night effect/same
sunrise-sunset problems as HF, coastal refraction, mountain reflection,
DFing the nearest Cb/Ts ( tune to about 270/300 kcs for the best bearing
on a big storm) quadrantal error up to 15 degrees at 25 degrees angle of bank
in a B707, etc etc etc, and then in this day and age, said "hey, this would make
a great aircraft navigation aid", you would be laughed out of the office of
any aviation regulator ------ but!!!
aaaah, the fun of a fixed card ADF NDB letdown in a howling wind, the invention
of the RMI (almost) made it easy.
When I got my first full time job, we were told in tech. school that the ADF
was on the way out, 36 years later it has just cost a small fortune for Qantas
to fit ADF's to B737-800's, despite the very latest full house AC 90-45A FMCS/IRS/GPS
gear, because CASA ( the Campaign Against Safe Aviation) "said so".
Having said all that, listening to 1500 near PHNL helps pass the time on a
15 hour leg, and for us 'wot 'ave bin around for a while, we always know what
to expect, the program hasn't changed in 35 years.
Don't be lulled into a false sense of security by GPS, but what a vast improvement.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton.
How come I get the impression that it's the guys without IFR GPS that clings
to the ADF?
The same thing happened after WW2 when the seat-of-the-pants jocks had to
adapt to NDB and other fancy electronic aids or get out of the front seat. Many
did. Oh, how time flies. (Pun intended.)
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Sneed
To: CapnSpray(at)aol.com ; n414c(at)direcway.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: ADFs
And don't forget, GPS is brought to by US Department of Defense.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: CapnSpray(at)aol.com
To: n414c(at)direcway.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: ADFs
Dr. Milt,
You are absolutely correct. They are just too expensive to keep in operation.
Maybe not compared to the GPS satellites, but I'll bet that the satellites
take preference.
Cap'n Spray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
Jim-Bob,
This is a great outpouring of concern for Dick Wartinger. I had only know
him for a couple years by meeting him at the TCFG meetings. He was a great
resource of information because he was there from the beginning. He was a
very wonderful man.
Is there some way we can communicate with Commander Aero or the Wartinger
family?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
913-485-3799 Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com [mailto:YOURTCFG(at)aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:53 PM
To: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com; barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.uk;
commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Cc: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER
In a message dated 10/24/02 3:47:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
I never had the opportunity to meet with Mr. Wartinger but I would like to
express my condolences to his family and all who were close to him.
Perhaps someone could publish a short history on his life so that we too can
get a glimpse of what he meant to the people around him and to Commanders in
general.
Nico
THANKS NICO..Perhaps that might happen. Let me give you just one fact. The
original, prototype Commander flew with wooden, "aeroflight" propellers. It
was Dick Wartinger who installed the two bladed Hartzells on that airplane.
His history with Commanders starts and the beginning jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Laxson <wlaxson1(at)corecom.net> |
There are still lots of ADF's in use in Alaska and Canada. I use mine
regularly while flying VFR (position cross check, improved situational
awareness), and IFR (there are NDB airways on my sectional, as well as
approaches). I have a yoke mounted VHF GPS, but no IFR approved unit in
the panel.
I was reflecting on the numerous comments here about NDB limitations on
instrument approaches and recalled an crash site I visited as part of a
SAR team in the late 70's. A Twin Otter with 19 PAX was on an NDB
airway with a stiff cross wind. The airway passed south of a volcanic
peak that towered above the other coastal mountains (and the airway).
If I remember the accident report correctly, the investigation showed
that the NDB signal was diffracted or reflected by the volcano and the
Twin Otter flew directly into a glacial ice face on the side of the
mountain . You could see the outline of the fuselage, wings, and engine
nacelles ground into the face of the ice where the plane bounced off.
NDB's are certainly fallible.
The NDB is a tool that I will continue to use, in conjunction with all
of my other tools. I would probably have it fixed if it broke, I am so
used to it.
Bill Laxson
--
This message was sent with an unlicensed evaluation version of
Novell NetMail. Please see http://www.netmail.com/ for details.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interview with Attorney General John Ashcroft by Cal |
Thomas
In a message dated 10/24/02 4:15:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, w.bow(at)att.net
writes:
> I don't think Christian is quite the bad word it once was.
>
> I'm In.
>
> bilbo
>
AAMMEENN.jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
In a message dated 10/24/02 4:37:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tylorh(at)sound.net writes:
> Is there some way we can communicate with Commander Aero or the Wartinger
> family?
>
>
>
>
I dont yet know when the service will be but you can contact Commander Aero
at 937-885-5580 10570 Springboro Pike, Miamisburg OH 45342 jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
In a message dated 10/25/02 12:38:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
> Fare thee well, Dick Wartinger, and thank you for being a guiding light in
> my career and in my life
Thank you Kieth, we have all lost a fine gentilman who cared for all and our
airplanes, when I was ever at Commander Aero he did his best to take care of
anything you needed personally and your airplane, My condolences to Dicks
family and there is one thing that he left all of us, that is Gary Krommer
and John Bosch, Dick wartinger's legesy will live forever, Thank you Dick
Jerry Sprayberry (capn spray)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
JB
Could we all chip in for flowers from the TCFG for Dick's funeral.
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dick Wartinger |
yea.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Crunkleton" <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net>
To: "commanderchat2"
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:04 AM
Subject: Dick Wartinger
> JB
> Could we all chip in for flowers from the TCFG for Dick's funeral.
> Crunk
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
In CAE, at the flyin, I had a great talk with Mr. Wartinger. He told me of
the loss of his wife over 6 years ago. Also the loss of his brother last
year. He told me that he never expected to live more than 6 months without
his bride, and how much they had hoped to travel the world together in his
retirement. He said he did not care if anybody thought he was crazy or not,
but told me that he still talked to his bride everyday.
I told him that it was not crazy at all, and that I hoped he would fullfill
some of those travel plans, and then talk to her everynight, telling her
about the wonderfull things that he had seen and done that day. He seemed to
like my idea, and we cried a little together, and cemented a new friendship.
It is great loss to me personally, and to the Commander world escpecially.
But I know in my heart that my savior has saved a special place in his house
for Mr. Dick, and he now can talk to his beloved bride without anyone
thinking anything at all. If you can't find peace in that thought, you may
never know peace at all.
My religion tells me to turn the other cheek. Islam commands it's followers
to put me to the knife, because I am the infidel. And goes on to say "Trust
you not the christians and the jews, for they are friends only to each
other."
I pray for the peace of this world, but am prepared to defend it.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dick Wartinger |
I agree, Let me know what I can do or send.
I will even make the arangements if you guys want me to, or maybe it's best
to let J.B. handle it I guess.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ProgSearch(at)aol.com <ProgSearch(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Info on Dick Wartinger |
Hello Fellow Commander Enthusiast,
I was at Commander-Aero this morning and spoke with Gary. He said that he
will hopefully have information regarding Dick's Funeral service later today.
I will post the information when I find out later today or Saturday.
I also spoke with another TCFG member who informed me that there is an effort
to organize a missing man formation with Commanders at Dick's funeral. If
anyone would like to have their aircraft involved please let me know and I
will put you in touch with the organizer.
For those of you that have known Dick for several years I can only say that
you were fortunate and that I am envious. I began speaking with Dick over the
telephone in Feb. of 2002. I offered my piloting services to him to
reposition aircraft around the country.
I used him as a technical resource when I flew a Shrike Commander from
Cincinnati to Athens, Greece. However, I did not have the pleasure of meeting
Dick until September of 2002. I flew Dick and a 500A he was brokering from
Dayton to Arkadelphia, Ark. During the flight Dick answered every question I
had about the aero-commander with a child like gleam in his eye. He spoke of
this values, his wife who passed away several years ago, his children (I
believe they have six children), His times with Bob Hoover, and his travels
around the world inspecting Commanders. I knew I was in the presence of a
truly wonderful human being.
So, if I was touched this deeply by one afternoon, I can only imagine how
many of you have been blessed by knowing and interacting with Dick for many
years.
Kevin Coons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dick Wartinger |
Ditto!
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;crunk12(at)bellsouth.net;JETPAUL(at)aol.com
Sent: 10/25/02 2:03:02 PM
Subject: Re: Dick Wartinger
Let me know what you want me to do.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com
To: crunk12(at)bellsouth.net ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Dick Wartinger
I agree, Let me know what I can do or send.
I will even make the arangements if you guys want me to, or maybe it's best
to let J.B. handle it I guess.
JetPaul
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- Twin Commander 560 E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS.
I spoke with John Bosch. There will be a viewing Sunday from 2 to
6pm, Sunday. The service will be Monday at 10am at Our Lady of Good Hope on
the corner of 3rd & Central, in Miamisburg OH. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CommanderFreak(at)aol.com <CommanderFreak(at)aol.com> |
Can anyone tell me if the waste gates on the 680FP are automatic or manual?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 10/25/02 15:30:03 Pacific Daylight Time,
CommanderFreak(at)aol.com writes:
> Can anyone tell me if the waste gates on the 680FP are automatic or manual?
CommanderFreak (great name!)
The original 680FP does not have waste gates. The engines are supercharged
via gear-driven superchargers.
The MR. RPM conversions are turbocharged and do have waste gates. They were
probably all manual. (I can't recall every seeing or flying a MR. RPM
conversion without waste gates.)
The manual waste gates were controlled via levers on the throttle quadrant; I
have heard of electric waste gates on a few installations.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
I don't know but that's a nice address.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: CommanderFreak(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 6:16 PM
Subject: 680FP
Can anyone tell me if the waste gates on the 680FP are automatic or manual?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | re ADF vs GPS discussion |
GPS is Fabulous, But I'm Hedging My Bets
Last updated 06-Sep-1998.
GPS is Fabulous,
But I'm Hedging My Bets
GPS is the most remarkable navigation system that aviation has ever had, and it's
going to get even better with the decomissioning of Selective Availability
and the launch of a new constellation of L5-band satellites. But don't yank the
VORs and DME out of your panel until you've read the cautions by AVweb's avionics
guru about some of the limitations and problems associated with relying
on GPS as your sole means of navigation.
by Tom Rogers, Ph.D. (trogers(at)avweb.com)
Without doubt, GPS has been the greatest advance in aviation navigation since the
invention of railroad tracks. It operates in just about any weather, uses a
small antenna, and doesn't necessarily have to be panel-mounted. In fact, some
of the portable GPSs have more features than the panel mounts (because they
aren't hamstrung by the need to comply with complex FAA TSO requirements). The
new GPS receivers are astonishingly small and low in power consumption. And the
best ones are easy to operate because the avionics manufacturers have learned
how to design user-friendly software. (Those of you that struggled with first-generation
loran receivers know what I mean!)
An incredibly powerful handheld GPS costs between $600 and $1,200 including a moving
map display, while panel mounted boxes run from $1,900 to $3,500. (In contrast,
the first general aviation Loran C receiver I installed cost over $8,000...in
1982 dollars!)
More Satellites, Less Errors
It appears that the next generation of GPS satellites (or "SVs" if you want to
impress your friends) will operate on the "L5 band" which is a different frequency
than the "L1 band" that current GPS satellites use. This change should help
improve navigation accuracy by reducing errors when the signal passes through
the ionosphere. This new "Block IIF" constellation is supposed to consist of
33 satellites, and "should" be launched by the first decade of the 21st century...but
you know how that goes. The new satellites will work in conjunction
with the old ones, although many of the satellites in the present constellation
are getting long in the tooth.
The other good news is that the Defense Department has agreed to decommission Selective
Availability (SA), the "wobulation" they intentionally designed into
the signals that civilians use to mess up navigation accuracy. We've know for
years that this was a dumb idea, and finally the military has agreed and pledged
to do away with SA sometime in the next ten years.
GPS just gets better and better, and it's revolutionizing navigation not just for
aircraft, but for boats, cars, hiking, surveying, and all sorts of other activities
as well. The potential uses of GPS seem almost endless.
But Is GPS Bulletproof?
With all this great news, you're probably ready to yank out all of your panel-mounted
nav radios, velcro a handheld GPS to your control yoke, and fly away into
the sunset. Well, don't be so quick about writing off those VORs and DMEs!
You might be able to get away with GPS as your sole means of navigation if you
fly strictly VFR. But according to my FAA inspector friend, you must have another
means of navigation if you fly IFR and file an alternate on your flight plan.
I'm not sure all FAA inspectors are preaching out of the same hymnal on this
point, but I'm inclined to agree with the thought behind it.
Unfortunately, GPS is not bulletproof. Any receiver that depends on signals at
-160 db (i.e., incredibly weak) will have problems from time to time. GPSs are
susceptible to ionospheric distortion, especially around sunset and sunrise.
Solar flare activity is on the increase again, and I predict that GPS reliability
will decrease as solar activity increases. GPS is also very susceptible to
radio frequency interferance (RFI) from other pieces of navigation equipment.
Some DME frequencies can interfere with GPS receivers. VHF comm transmitters
can shut down the GPS when you transmit on certain frequencies.
Another big problem with GPS is the satellites. When one goes on the fritz, it's
not easy to get it fixed. You don't just call the Maytag repairman! Rumor has
it that if a satellite goes down, the cost to build a replacement and launch
it into orbit is greater than five years worth of maintenance on all the VOR
and ILS stations in the United States. And get this: the early block of GPS satellites
had a lifespan of only 7.5 years...most have been up for over five years
now, and some have already failed. Let's see a show of hands from those interested
in going up one weekend to do some orbital repair work.
Redundancy Is Essential
Throughout our aviation training, we are taught to have backups for critical systems.
Our engines have two magnetos and two spark plugs in each cylinder. Many
of our aircraft have dual vacuum pumps and dual alternators...and some have
dual engines. Most have an emergency exit door (or window) in case the main door
jams. Most serious pilots have dual VOR/ILS receivers, plus DME and other navigation
equipment. The basic idea is to make sure we can still fly safely, even
in the soup, if any one critical device or subsystem fails.
I think the same philosophy has to be used with GPS. I'm happy to use GPS as my
primary means of navigation, but never as my sole means. I'll always back it
up with loran and/or VOR/DME, preferably both. I'd suggest you do the same.
About the Author...
Tom Rogers is avionics editor for AVweb. Tom operates Avionics West, Inc., at Santa
Maria, California, one of the finest radio shops on the West Coast. Tom is
an instrument pilot, an FAA Designated Engineering Representative (DER) for
avionics, and has a Ph.D. in nuclear physics. (We're not sure why he got the doctorate,
but we call him "Dr. Tom" and he seems to like that.) You can send Tom
your avionics questions at avionics(at)avweb.com.
Tom's company, Avionics West, Inc., is one of the worlds largest discounters of
handheld and panel-mount avionics for general aviation. They offer all leading
brands of aviation electronics at deep-discount prices. Every item sold by AWI
is covered by a 30-day no-questions-asked return privilege. Avionics West features
handheld GPS receivers from Garmin and Lowrance; headsets from David Clark,
LightSPEED and Telex; and panel-mount GPS navigators from II Morrow. AWI
stocks these units and generally sells them at prices substantially below the
manufacturers' "Minimum Advertised Price" (MAP). Consequently, AWI is not permitted
to advertise these prices on its web site, but you can obtain them by sending
an email to the AWI auto-responder at avionics-specials(at)avweb.com, or by
telephoning AWI at 1-805-928-3601 (M-F, 8-5 Pacific).
This document was last updated on 06-Sep-1998. Copyright 1998 AVweb Group. All
rights reserved.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
To my Knowledge there are no controles for the pilot except the throttles,
everything is automatic, Just don't over boost on takeoff or you will be
overhauling an engine very soon.
N198JW 680FP capnspray.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MR. DICK WARTINGER |
www.commander-aero.com
capnspray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: re ADF vs GPS discussion |
> I'm happy to use GPS as my primary means of navigation, but never as
> my sole means. I'll always back it up with loran and/or VOR/DME,
> preferably both. I'd suggest you do the same.
>
The FAR's generally require you to have an alternate means of shooting
an approach. Yes, this stuff is interesting. However, as an "ADF v.
GPS" debate I believe this article, if anything, weakens the argument
for an ADF.
Though I'm a relative "newbie," I've spent A LOT of time researching and
thinking about the practical applications of avionics. My Commander has
an IFR GPS (terminal area capable), and a KNS-80 for
RNAV/VOR/DME/ILS/GS/LOC capability. GPS is really making RNAV obsolete,
so I basically use the unit for everything but RNAV. Though it works
just fine, this is not my panel of choice but what was in the plane when
I bought it.
In my new CJ-6A panel, I have gone with a UPSAT stack. IFR GPS/COMM
(terminal area capable), VOR/ILS/GS/LOC/COMM, Mode S capable
transponder, and audio panel with built in MB, and it doubles as a CD
player, of course! For those of you familiar this stuff it's a GX-60,
SL-30, SL-70, and PMA7000-CD. This is a compact, versatile, economical
(relatively), no single-point-of-failure system. For the money, nothing
comes close. If I was putting this in my Commander, I'd add the MX-20
MFD, which is totally awsome/bitchin'/cool, dude.
I certainly did not post this to create debate, but rather just to put
ideas out there.
Barry
HERE WE GO, ANGELS, HERE WE GO!!!!!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re ADF vs GPS and waste gates |
In a message dated 10/26/02 21:54:18 Pacific Daylight Time,
radialpower(at)cox.net writes:
> GPS is really making RNAV obsolete,
> so I basically use the unit for everything but RNAV. Though it works
> just fine, this is not my panel of choice but what was in the plane when
> I bought it.
>
Just a bit of an aviation language alert.
I'm on the Las Vegas (and now Western Region) RNAV Design Committee.
"RNAV" is actually starting to be applied to FMS (Flight Management System)
based procedures and jet aircraft filing /E/F/G equipment suffixes are being
cleared by RNAV SIDs and STARs and a brand new set of RNAV routes on the West
Coast.
The /I equipped aircraft are not considered capable of these procedures, but
IFR GPS equipped aircraft are.
So the course-line-computer (or rho/theta) navigation boxes are kind of in
this ATC nether-world. One can still file /I and fly IFR directs but I bet
TRACON controllers insist on vectoring you once in their airspace regardless
of whether you claim you can fly direct with /I. It's a Nav Data base
thing.
And I remember when a KNS-80 was hot stuff.
------------------------------------------
On to another topic.
I wonder if our answers to CommanderFreak satisfied his curiosity. I made an
assumption that an understanding of the engines was in hand.
Just so I can sleep tonight: The original engine on the 680-F series was the
Lycoming IGSO-540. fuel Injected, Geared, Supercharged, horizontally
Opposed. This is a single-point fuel injection system, the injector at the
mechanical supercharger. Move the throttle, the supercharger speed/boost is
linked to the engine speed as it's spun as a ratio of the crankshaft speed.
This engine was replaced by Mr. Richard P. MacCoon (MR.RPM) with Lycoming
IO-720 engines, (fuel injection at each cylinder) with added RayJay
turbochargers that "turbo normalize" the Manifold Pressure to a red line
limit of 29.9 inches Hg.
The waste gates are manual and the engine can run normally aspirated, but in
the 680-F(P) models, the turbos must be spun up for pressurization bleed air.
OK. Have I made enough of a mess of that topic?
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Some feedback would be appreciated. Perhaps someone could volunteer to
> coordinate the submissions and some to edit and upload them to the
> website. I volunteer to do whatever is necessary.
Nico,
That's an excellent idea! I am certainly willing to put in the time to
proof/edit/post stories to the web site. If ya'll (that's okie for
everyone) can contribute, we will just make this happen.
Speaking up the web site, anyone interested in contributing a new
"Commander of the month"? I can't just make 'em up you know :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | "REMEMERANCE" ALWAYS A SMILE |
[Unable to display image]
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "REMEMBERANCE" ALWAYS A SMILE |
Hi Gang,
Photo was taken at this year's Fly-In at West Columbia.
Left to Right are:
Dick Wartinger, Howard Payne, Gary Tillman.
Nice shot Gary, thanks for posting it.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: TILLMAN333(at)aol.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: "REMEMERANCE" ALWAYS A SMILE
Who's who. Left to right will work.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: TILLMAN333(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com ; commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: "REMEMERANCE" ALWAYS A SMILE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
HEY BUDDY,,,,,,,,,, THEY WANT A COMMADER OF THE MONTH YOU NEED TO
CONTRIBUTE.
HEY LOU TRAN,,,,,,,, GET IT IN GEAR AND CONTRIBUTE YOUR COMMANDER OF THE
MONTH.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To: "Nico van Niekerk"
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Legacy
>
>
> Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> > Some feedback would be appreciated. Perhaps someone could volunteer to
> > coordinate the submissions and some to edit and upload them to the
> > website. I volunteer to do whatever is necessary.
>
>
> Nico,
> That's an excellent idea! I am certainly willing to put in the time to
> proof/edit/post stories to the web site. If ya'll (that's okie for
> everyone) can contribute, we will just make this happen.
> Speaking up the web site, anyone interested in contributing a new
> "Commander of the month"? I can't just make 'em up you know :-)
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> The story that would go with this is the following: (More or less, I will
> work on it if you consider it worthy of publication as COM.)
Great Nico! How about a little about flying a Commander in Africa?
What kind of flying did you do, interesting places? Anything the
Commander did that other aircraft didn't do as well?
(just trying to get your creative juices flowing :-)
Thanks,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> I have lots of video freighting equipment and materials into Inhaca, a tiny
> island off the coast of Mozambique, to reestablish tourism after years of
> communist rule. I just wanted to get your first impression whether this will
> work. I will have to sit down and edit and capture images from these trips.
> How much time do I have?
Nico,
If you have some way of capturing video to either RealVideo files or
alternativly MPEG, we could even try out a few short clips if you'd
like. If you havn't already looked at the other COTM's, please do so as
it might give you some ideas.
You have all the time you need.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS.
I am sorry for not responding to emails of late. My Mother
suffered a stroke last Friday and I have flow triple 2 to Idaho. She should
recover given time. I hope to be home by Thursday. The newsletter is nearly
done and should be in the mail early next week, sorry for the delay. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com> |
| Subject: | Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
I'm thinking the time has come to replace the variable resistor on the rudder trim.
The worst prt is that its going *pookie* during the annual. Very hard to
explain to an IA....
Talked to TC and was told the manufacturer is Simmons Precision Windings. Part
No EA1502C-1.
Who on earth is Simmons precision windings. I trust the are releted to someone
big, raytheon, kelly, etc.
but I havent been able to find them.
Anyone else recognise these folks?
Bruce Campbell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
In a message dated 10/29/02 6:40:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
baruch(at)intelligentflight.com writes:
> Anyone else recognise these folks?
Cantact Gary Kromer at Commander Aero,PH 937-885-5580, He has helped me more
than once on impossible parts. and I sincerely hope that your AI is not a
parts replacer instead of a Mechanic that knows what AC 43.13 is. JR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
So, so far I know that Simmonds Precision is now BF Goodrich Aerospace Motion Controls
Div, in Vergennes Vermont, and that the part number is EA1502C-1.
The point about investigating whether the part can be bought new for a reasonable
amount of money (2 to low 3 digits) is that I dont like stuff like this going
bad in flight, and after some years nursing equipment like this for a living,
I recognise when I'm starting to beat a dead horse.
REgardless of the new price, I will indeed call Gary Kromer, but the last time
I talked to him on this subject, ( a year ago) the only approach he recommended
was to get a used one and cannibalise the parts. This I did, but a year later
I'm doing it again. Probably because in the final analysis we're all doing that,
and the number of units which work at all and have only had one owner is
dwindling.
If its a reasonable amount of money, I'd rather buy new, even if it means having
to chase people and vendors around........ Besides, eventually thats one more
used part when I'm done with it.
Bruce Campbell
AC52 N4186B
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Campbell
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 3:31 PM
Subject: Trim Sender on the Fritz again.
I'm thinking the time has come to replace the variable resistor on the rudder
trim. The worst prt is that its going *pookie* during the annual. Very hard to
explain to an IA....
Talked to TC and was told the manufacturer is Simmons Precision Windings. Part
No EA1502C-1.
Who on earth is Simmons precision windings. I trust the are releted to someone
big, raytheon, kelly, etc.
but I havent been able to find them.
Anyone else recognise these folks?
Bruce Campbell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Laxson <wlaxson(at)nstiak.com> |
I've been plaaning to install a remote flux-gate compass in my Helio to supplement
the wet compass. I already bought the unit, just need it installed now.
The install shop discouraged me and recommended I wait till the ramifications
of the following policy shake out this winter..........
Bill Laxson
(From AviationNewsAlaska - October 29, 2002)
FAA Arbitrarily Stalls Field Approvals
Effective immediately, the FAA has halted all Field Approvals for alterations/repairs
for Part 121 operators. It's a move that could effectively shut down vital
aviation operations throughout Alaska, according to Dan Bardwell, of Bedrock
Aviation in Anchorage.
Additionally, new restrictions for Field Approvals
on General Aviation threaten to shut down vital airframe and avionics
repairs throughout the state, according to Jeff Walker of Floats Alaska in
Anchorage.
The FAA's new policy bulletin is available online:
http://www.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/HBAW/HBAW0203.DOC
Previously, maintenance inspectors for the FAA were able to sign off on
repairs and alterations. Now, however, the new regulations mandate a
committee review of many repairs and alterations. That process, according
to F. Atlee Dodge, will create additional problems for commercial
operators, private pilots and repair shops. Dodge, whose company F. Atlee
Dodge Aircraft Services, Inc., holds dozens of STCs for customized
repairs, says the FAA "is creating a monster with the new regs."
"Lots of ex-military guys there at the FAA have never seen anything less
than a B-52," said Dodge. "The FAA is a necessary evilbut sometimes it's
carried away with its own importance. These new regulations are
ridiculous," he said.
"This new set of regulations blows Era Aviation and PenAir out of the
water," said Bardwell. The state's two large regional airlines use a
variety of aircraft which routinely require F.A.s.
"Nobody has gotten in an accident. Nobody has died. And yet, last
Wednesday at 1:30p.m., without any public input, the FAA arbitrarily
changed the rules and said 'This is the way its gonna be.'," said
Bardwell.
Felix McGuire, head of the Alaska Airmen's Association, is concerned these
new regulations could torpedo the FAAs own "CAPSTONE" project, now in its
second phase.
"The new installation of CAPSTONE technology requires swift field
approval," said McGuire. "If these installations had to go through a
committeeforget it. The FAA may shoot down its own program, he said.
Taking the decision-making ability away from the maintenance inspectors
is like having a cop who cant make a decision. Everything has to go to a
committee. In the meantime, youre thrown in jail, he said.
The FAA is manufacturing a safety problem where none existed before,
said Bardwell.
Gary Bennett of Northern Lights Avionics agrees. I had to turn away some
installation work because of this FAA backlog, said Bennett. The guy
looked at me and said he would try and install it himself. Then he left.
Thats an accident waiting to happen, he said.
--
This message was sent with an unlicensed evaluation version of
Novell NetMail. Please see http://www.netmail.com/ for details.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
In a message dated 10/29/2002 4:37:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
baruch(at)intelligentflight.com writes:
> If its a reasonable amount of money, I'd rather buy new, even if it means
> having to chase people and vendors around........ Besides, eventually thats
>
If we are going to work on an upgraded replacement, how about and electric,
MAC servo. this would eliminate both the cable and the sender?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
Bruce,
Ive spent the last week trying to track down some info on this very subject. As
you recall (and responded to, thankyou) I posted an inquiry on this site for
info on this part. Heres what I've found out so far.
1. The assembly inside the box was built by Liquidometer which was bought by
Simmonds Precision, which was bought by BFGoodrich.. I spoke to a tech rep
(Larry) at BFG yesterday who knows the Simmonds products and he was very helpful
in supplying me with part numbers and specs etc.
2. Banyan Air in FTL can sell a complete box and assembly for $2276 with a 24
week wait. BFG can sell the guts assembly for $850 with an 18 week wait. BFG
may be able to provide the resistor (offending part in my system) for $123 with
another wait. None of these are options for me, so.............
3. I asked "Larry" to provide me with specs on the interior resistor with the
intent of having mine rebuilt. Heres what I got:
Resistor p/n (BFG) EA1521, 238 ohms over 2.172 inches (109.8 ohms per inch) using
35 gauge wire (p/n EA7904-35) and rivets (p/n 237002-29BF). Looks like I'm
gonna have mine rebuilt. I am now looking for an approved overhaul manual for
the assembly. Also looking for an approved facility to do the job. Help out
if you can guys!!
4. I know the wire for the windings is an alloy and the finished resistor must
have some protective coating over it. The rest of the assembly in myy system
is in good shape. There is a trimming resistor on the outside of the box. Don't
confuse this with the other interior resistor in your parts search. This
exterior resistor is not used on the rudder installation.
5. I have a couple of phone numbers, including BFG Larry's, but they are at the
hangar at the moment. I'll post them later.
Again, if anyone knows of a facility that will repair these resistors, lets hear
it. The winding on my resistor was parted near the middle and I suspect this
type of problem will be found on most troublesome trim indication assemblies.
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Campbell
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 6:31 PM
Subject: Trim Sender on the Fritz again.
I'm thinking the time has come to replace the variable resistor on the rudder
trim. The worst prt is that its going *pookie* during the annual. Very hard to
explain to an IA....
Talked to TC and was told the manufacturer is Simmons Precision Windings. Part
No EA1502C-1.
Who on earth is Simmons precision windings. I trust the are releted to someone
big, raytheon, kelly, etc.
but I havent been able to find them.
Anyone else recognise these folks?
Bruce Campbell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
Not that any one would, but ........ Don't bother to sneak out in the middle of
the night and get one of mine. Neither one of mine has worked in the last 2
years I have owned it.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Campbell
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again.
So, so far I know that Simmonds Precision is now BF Goodrich Aerospace Motion
Controls Div, in Vergennes Vermont, and that the part number is EA1502C-1.
The point about investigating whether the part can be bought new for a reasonable
amount of money (2 to low 3 digits) is that I dont like stuff like this going
bad in flight, and after some years nursing equipment like this for a living,
I recognise when I'm starting to beat a dead horse.
REgardless of the new price, I will indeed call Gary Kromer, but the last time
I talked to him on this subject, ( a year ago) the only approach he recommended
was to get a used one and cannibalise the parts. This I did, but a year later
I'm doing it again. Probably because in the final analysis we're all doing
that, and the number of units which work at all and have only had one owner is
dwindling.
If its a reasonable amount of money, I'd rather buy new, even if it means having
to chase people and vendors around........ Besides, eventually thats one more
used part when I'm done with it.
Bruce Campbell
AC52 N4186B
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Campbell
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 3:31 PM
Subject: Trim Sender on the Fritz again.
I'm thinking the time has come to replace the variable resistor on the rudder
trim. The worst prt is that its going *pookie* during the annual. Very hard
to explain to an IA....
Talked to TC and was told the manufacturer is Simmons Precision Windings.
Part No EA1502C-1.
Who on earth is Simmons precision windings. I trust the are releted to someone
big, raytheon, kelly, etc.
but I havent been able to find them.
Anyone else recognise these folks?
Bruce Campbell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
Rodd Browne wrote:
> 3. I asked "Larry" to provide me with specs on the interior
> resistor with the intent of having mine rebuilt. Heres what I got:
> Resistor p/n (BFG) EA1521, 238 ohms over 2.172 inches (109.8 ohms per
> inch) using 35 gauge wire (p/n EA7904-35) and rivets (p/n 237002-29BF).
> Looks like I'm gonna have mine rebuilt. I am now looking for an
> approved overhaul manual for the assembly. Also looking for an approved
> facility to do the job. Help out if you can guys!!
Good sluthing Rodd!
Here's a thought - if you can acquire some of the wire, you could wind
your own under the "owner fabricated repair parts" authority. My
understanding is that you can even outsource certain skills as long as
you're the one providing the specifications and QC.
ie: you send me a broken resistor and wire and tell me to wind the core
- I don't know/care what it goes on - I'm just wrapping wire to your
spec. You re-check and use that component to rebuild your transducer.
Just don't try to sell the "product". For that you'd need all the
various FAA blessings.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
Chris,
That is precisely my intentions now unless someone can convince me that
there are compelling reasons not to........Does any one else have any input
with regard to "owner fabricated repair parts"?
rodd
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To: "Rodd Browne"
Cc: "Bruce Campbell" ;
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again.
>
>
> Rodd Browne wrote:
> > 3. I asked "Larry" to provide me with specs on the interior
> > resistor with the intent of having mine rebuilt. Heres what I got:
> > Resistor p/n (BFG) EA1521, 238 ohms over 2.172 inches (109.8 ohms per
> > inch) using 35 gauge wire (p/n EA7904-35) and rivets (p/n 237002-29BF).
> > Looks like I'm gonna have mine rebuilt. I am now looking for an
> > approved overhaul manual for the assembly. Also looking for an approved
> > facility to do the job. Help out if you can guys!!
>
> Good sluthing Rodd!
> Here's a thought - if you can acquire some of the wire, you could wind
> your own under the "owner fabricated repair parts" authority. My
> understanding is that you can even outsource certain skills as long as
> you're the one providing the specifications and QC.
> ie: you send me a broken resistor and wire and tell me to wind the core
> - I don't know/care what it goes on - I'm just wrapping wire to your
> spec. You re-check and use that component to rebuild your transducer.
> Just don't try to sell the "product". For that you'd need all the
> various FAA blessings.
>
> Chris
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
What is the going rate (%) a broker gets for selling a plane?????
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
Hi Rodd, et al,
Possible help from the following Websites:
http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/Jan_Feb2002/cani.htm
&
http://www1.faa.gov/AVR/afs/news/archive/Jul_Aug2002/Parts.htm
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
UK CommanderLand rep.
Rodd Browne
t.net> cc: Bruce Campbell ,
commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
30/10/2002 13:41 Subject: Re: Trim Sender on the
Fritz again.
Chris,
That is precisely my intentions now unless someone can convince me that
there are compelling reasons not to........Does any one else have any input
with regard to "owner fabricated repair parts"?
rodd
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To: "Rodd Browne"
Cc: "Bruce Campbell" ;
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again.
>
>
> Rodd Browne wrote:
> > 3. I asked "Larry" to provide me with specs on the interior
> > resistor with the intent of having mine rebuilt. Heres what I got:
> > Resistor p/n (BFG) EA1521, 238 ohms over 2.172 inches (109.8 ohms per
> > inch) using 35 gauge wire (p/n EA7904-35) and rivets (p/n 237002-29BF).
> > Looks like I'm gonna have mine rebuilt. I am now looking for an
> > approved overhaul manual for the assembly. Also looking for an
approved
> > facility to do the job. Help out if you can guys!!
>
> Good sluthing Rodd!
> Here's a thought - if you can acquire some of the wire, you could wind
> your own under the "owner fabricated repair parts" authority. My
> understanding is that you can even outsource certain skills as long as
> you're the one providing the specifications and QC.
> ie: you send me a broken resistor and wire and tell me to wind the core
> - I don't know/care what it goes on - I'm just wrapping wire to your
> spec. You re-check and use that component to rebuild your transducer.
> Just don't try to sell the "product". For that you'd need all the
> various FAA blessings.
>
> Chris
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | trim transmitter ass'y |
For those interested in this trim stuff this morning, I have attached four pictures
of the assembly located inside the boxes located in the top leading edge
of the left elevator and the left lower leading edge of the rudder. Sorry the
resolution is not better, but if you look closely at one picture you can see
the area of broken windings in the center of the resistor. I believe old age
was the culprit.
rodd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: trim transmitter ass'y |
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodd Browne
To: commanderchat2@c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:29 AM
Subject: trim transmitter ass'y
For those interested in this trim stuff this morning, I have attached four pictures
of the assembly located inside the boxes located in the top leading edge
of the left elevator and the left lower leading edge of the rudder. Sorry the
resolution is not better, but if you look closely at one picture you can see
the area of broken windings in the center of the resistor. I believe old age
was the culprit.
rodd
ps. this is a resend since I just realized I was not using the correct chatlist
address. Please excuse the repeat........r
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CommanderFreak(at)aol.com <CommanderFreak(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Take off |
I have an opportunity to fly a 680FP and since I don't want to show up and
seem like an idiot can you provide me with a little info?
I have seen these direct drive superchargers on the aircraft and how do they
work?
I also notice that the MP gauge shows redline at about 50 inches and have
been told that 48 inches is not uncommom on takeoff. I notice that 48 inches
is way in the yellow arc.
What is the takeoff procedure?
What if you elect not to fly at an altitude that requires pressurization and
O2?
What is the procedure for your decent so you don't shock cool your super
chargers and you engines?
What is the service ceiling on the aircraft?
Would you mind sharing the V1 Vr V2 Vy Vx Vyse Vxse? At what speed do fly
final?
At what speed do you flair?
I know that it is a great deal of questions. I would appreciate any info you
would give me.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Take off |
In a message dated 10/30/02 07:09:45 Pacific Standard Time,
CommanderFreak(at)aol.com writes:
>
> I have an opportunity to fly a 680FP and since I don't want to show up and
> seem like an idiot can you provide me with a little info?
Gadzooks, Man!
You are going to fly this thing for the first time with an experienced,
qualified P.I.C. aren't you? Preferably an instructor?
This is NOT the kind of airplane you show up with a few operating tips and
zoom away in. There are far too many subtleties ... and not-so-subtleties to
this model.
The pilots I've transitioned into the 680-F series have all received between
10 and 40 hours of instruction, or, had significant experience with similar
powerplants and systems. These were usually older men who "grew up" in the
era when these airplanes were the "King Air 200s" of their day.
Don't get me wrong -- everyone on this list wants you to fly and enjoy
Commanders. We just don't want you to be embarrassed (in the worst kind of
way).
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
In a message dated 10/30/2002 5:49:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
> That is precisely my intentions now unless someone can convince me that
> there are compelling reasons not to........Does any one else have any input
> with regard to "owner fabricated repair parts"?
Re-read last issue of the newsletter. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Take off |
In a message dated 10/30/2002 7:09:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
CommanderFreak(at)aol.com writes:
>
> I also notice that the MP gauge shows redline at about 50 inches and have
> been told that 48 inches is not uncommom on takeoff. I notice that 48
> inches is way in the yellow arc.
HI.
YIKES!!! I strongly recommend (no, demand) finding an
EXPERIENCED Commander plot to fly this thing. This is not the type of
airplane you check yourself out in. The engines can be reduced to scrap
aluminum in short order by mishandling. PLEASE, find a Commander pilot with
geared engine experience, preferably in the IGSO 540 to fly this thing. No
offense intended but you are most defiantly not qualified for this. Thanks
Jim Metzger Director, Twin Commander Flight Group
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dennis Polito W6DEN <cloudhopper(at)attbi.com> |
Greetings to the list and to Rodd:
I have been following the thread on the trim tab issue. Likewise I have a problematic
trim tab that is intermittent in operation. I have researched this part
and decided to rebuild it on my own. (haven't got around to it yet)
This part is not unlike other electronic components i.e.: variable transformers,
rheostats and the like.
The resistance is derived by winding "resistance wire" on a form and then varying
the total resistance with a moveable wiper. Normally the wiper remains in one
local "sweet spot" and over time localized pressure and vibration causes the
resistor wire to fail.
This part can be rewound. All that is needed is the correct value wire.
The trim position sender will have to be disassembled and the resistance wire unwound
off of the form. Measure with an accurate ohm meter. What you are looking
for is the "ohms per foot" value and the diameter of the wire. It is important
to replace the original resistance wire with a close equivalent.
The wire can be obtained from: Pelican Wire Co. 6266 Taylor Rd. Naples FL. 34109-1896
914-597-8555 Fax 941-597-9783 pelicanwire(at)worldnet.att.net
I bet that if you send them a sample they can I.D. the wire for you. Better yet,
send them the disassembled form with the wire still on it.
It looks like they have a $50.00 minimum order, you will get enough wire to rebuild
half of the fleet for that amount.
When you get the wire, save a hunk for me and for the rest of the folks.
This is a good example of how a part classified as "unobtanium" can be restored
to good as new status with a little effort.
Dennis Polito N6273X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Take off |
Years ago, in South Africa, there was an 'open multi engine rating' available to
pilots with more than some hours (cannot remember the number) only limiting
the pilot by the all up weight of the aircraft. Later wisdom removed that privilege
from the repertoire of ratings although very few of these rated pilots were
involved in mishaps and fewer still had met with less landings than take-offs
due to their open rating. That rating basically allowed a pilot to walk up
to a multi engined aircraft, get into the left seat for the first time, fire
it up and launch the poor thing into the sky. Where the deficiencies of this rating
panned out, was when a pilot returned for recurring training or renewals
and the horror on the face of the CFI was unmistakeably the reason for a much
longer than usual renewals.
As time passed more of these pilots refused to exercise the full complement of
their privileges and opted for formal training before taking on such an unknown
test flight; test flight because it ventures on the border of the functions
of pilots who test new aircraft except that these first-flights test the skills
of the pilot: fail and you suffer much.
So, Freak, if this invitation is to fly as a guest on a 680FP and the pilot who
will be in command is licensed and proficient, go for it and enjoy yourself.
The PIC will enjoy showing you around and perhaps let you hold the stick for a
while. Chances are, he wouldn't want you to touch the engine controls at any
time before, during or after the flight. If, however, you have an opportunity,
excluding stealing the aircraft of course, to fly it as PIC, you would score
an enormous victory by declining and getting and staying drunk or something benign.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: CommanderFreak(at)aol.com ; CapnSpray(at)aol.com
Cc: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: 680FP Take off
In a message dated 10/30/2002 7:09:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, CommanderFreak(at)aol.com
writes:
I also notice that the MP gauge shows redline at about 50 inches and have been
told that 48 inches is not uncommom on takeoff. I notice that 48 inches is
way in the yellow arc.
HI.
YIKES!!! I strongly recommend (no, demand) finding an EXPERIENCED
Commander plot to fly this thing. This is not the type of airplane you check
yourself out in. The engines can be reduced to scrap aluminum in short order
by mishandling. PLEASE, find a Commander pilot with geared engine experience,
preferably in the IGSO 540 to fly this thing. No offense intended but you
are most defiantly not qualified for this. Thanks Jim Metzger Director, Twin
Commander Flight Group
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Take off |
CommanderFreak's question "What if you elect not to fly at an altitude that
requires pressurization and O2?" triggered several thoughts.
I first miss read his question and thought he ask about flying at altitudes
requiring pressurization AND O2. My thoughts were "I don't think even the
-10 can fly high enough to send the CABIN altitude above 12,000 ft. with the
5.5 pressure differential system. The altitude would have be at least
FL370. I re-read the question and discovered the error in my ways.
This lead to thought on the Merlyn conversion. The old RAM memory (random
access memory, and I do mean random at times) started spinning over the
cruise figures they publish on there web site. The TAS must be for the mid
to high teens. Well, a standard GA oxygen system should do. The family
should not complain too much. The gastro-intestinal track and my passengers
should not complain , if I lay off the frijoles the night before and other
physiological elements should tolerate it ok.
Those thought brought back memories of a memorable flight back from Guam,
non-stop/no air refueling, to Rapid City, SD (Ellisworth AFB). 3 hours out
of Guam at FL390, the cabin slowly started bleeding down and stabilized at
FL245 cabin altitude. Hickam Airways would not let us go lower for 4 hours.
Pressure breathing straight O2 can wear you out fast.
Hey! There is a good use for the RA. You can use it to compute Pressure
LOP's for course line navigation and Drift Angle over the Big Pond. You
compute the info with that part of the Whiz Wheel no one ever uses.
(definition - Whiz Wheel: slang for Aerial Navigation Slide Ruler, you know,
the one that DOES NOT require batteries.)
Does anyone still remember how to use one?
Glenn Sneed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CommanderFreak(at)aol.com <CommanderFreak(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
Hey Everyone I am CommanderFreak not CommnaderIdiot. I was just asking so I
could sit in right seat of the aircraft with a foundation of knowledge to
begin my learning process. I just assumed that everyone approaches flying the
same way that I do and that is gather as much information as I can before
stepping foot in an aircraft. I guess many people just wait for the
instructor to tell them everything and never bother to read a POH, Aircraft
Information Manual, or ask a valuable resource questions (Such as Commander
owners for the info.).
I appreciate the concern and suggestions of everyone. Your points are well
taken and understandable. However, JUST RELAX I am not the PIC. I sure hope
the owner of the airplane will be more willing to answer the many questions
that I have regarding his airplane. Being a CFII/MEI I answer a question that
I am asked in one of two manners 1) If I know the answer to the question I
share my knowledge with them 2) If I don't know the answer I tell them I
don't know, but will be happy to find out.
If 48 inches of MP is not allowed on take off then dispel the myth. Tell me
the answer? Don't give me five reasons why I am dangerous and shouldn't even
be allowed the pleasure of flying the airplane. I talked with an owner of a
680FL (Not a TCFG participant) and was told that 48 inches is possible,
however the useful life of your engine is reduced. He suggested a reduced
power takeoff of 40 inches. I found his insight and knowledge of the engine
and supercharger very helpful. He was happy to share his knowledge, he didn't
suggest that I not touch anything associated with the throttles in the
airplane like Nico did.
I am also thankful that when I went to work for a 121 airline they didn't
beat me down like my fellow Commander pilots, owners, & operators did when I
asked questions regarding their equipment. They actually sent me the training
materials in advance
so I could be somewhat prepared before stepping onto their property.
It's unfortunate that the egos of pilots lead them immediately to telling
people what they shouldn't do. I guess the Wright Brothers should have stayed
on the ground with their bicycles and Lindbergh should have never departed
from New York.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 10/30/02 12:40:17 Pacific Standard Time,
Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com writes:
> (definition - Whiz Wheel: slang for Aerial Navigation Slide Ruler, you know,
> the one that DOES NOT require batteries.)
Glen,
I call them Prayer Wheels and I keep on in each of the FMS equipped Falcon
20s I fly -- but I haven't done a pressure pattern nav computation since
someone tried to show me how to do it 28 years ago. Way too much thinking
involved. ;-)
As far as the O2 question goes, I hope Dr. Milt will weigh in with his
thoughts on O2 delivery systems, oxygen saturation levels at various
altitudes, etc.
I know that Jerry Rodgers, who set up quite the spectacular Merlyn conversion
with 4 blade props and extra an large Kevlar O2 tank claimed he flew
routinely at FL240. I don't remember what his delivery system was; a nasal
cannula wouldn't work up there.
Take a look at this web site and mouse around a bit.
Aviation
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Commander Pilots |
"I am also thankful that when I went to work for a 121 airline they didn't beat
me down like my fellow Commander pilots, owners, & operators did when I asked
questions "
Ever think, it might have something to do with they way you ask the question? A
few of us have a few hours of 121 time as well as O-1 time. I think the way
it was ask, people were trying prevent an accident looking for a place to happen.
They were being 'kind' and looking out for your welfare! A very common thread
on the CommanderChat List. And I for one appreciate it.
Don
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- Twin Commander 560 E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
In a message dated 10/30/02 13:10:02 Pacific Standard Time,
CommanderFreak(at)aol.com writes:
> However, JUST RELAX I am not the PIC.
Ahhhhh. Wouldn't that bit of information been nice? We could have all
stopped worrying. Your original note left the impression someone had tossed
you the keys and told you to take her around the patch a few times.
Re: Reduced MAP on take-off. I for one, do not recommed it. There is a
fuel enrichening setting at the higher throttle settings that aids in engine
cooling.
Set power at 45" to allow for ram rise to occur duing the take off roll.
After gear up and obstacles cleared, reduce to 40" and 3000 RPM for the rest
of the climb.
Attached is a check list I developed for a client with an MR. RPM conversion.
Many of the procedures are not applicable, but the speeds should be OK for
the IGSO-540 powered models.
DO NOT USE THIS CHECK LIST IN FLIGHT. It is NOT AUTHORIZED FOR USE IN THE
AIRCRAFT.
I am relaxed. Now. I have witnesses.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
Well here we go again!
Please remember that one of the problems with reading an Email or a letter is that
there's no interactive participation between the writer and the reader.
Misunderstanding the writer might not just be the readers fault but might have
something to do with the way the paragraph/s was phrased.
CommanderFreak should perhaps (now that he has clarified his question) not jump
on the readers but rephrase the question/s keeping in mind that us old farts
need non-ambiguous questions.
Try again and all parties "take a cold tablet" (chillout).
Tom.
----- Original Message -----
From: CommanderFreak(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 13:03
Subject: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander
Hey Everyone I am CommanderFreak not CommnaderIdiot. I was just asking so I could
sit in right seat of the aircraft with a foundation of knowledge to begin
my learning process. I just assumed that everyone approaches flying the same
way that I do and that is gather as much information as I can before stepping
foot in an aircraft. I guess many people just wait for the instructor to tell
them everything and never bother to read a POH, Aircraft Information Manual, or
ask a valuable resource questions (Such as Commander owners for the info.).
I appreciate the concern and suggestions of everyone. Your points are well taken
and understandable. However, JUST RELAX I am not the PIC. I sure hope the
owner of the airplane will be more willing to answer the many questions that I
have regarding his airplane. Being a CFII/MEI I answer a question that I am asked
in one of two manners 1) If I know the answer to the question I share my
knowledge with them 2) If I don't know the answer I tell them I don't know, but
will be happy to find out.
If 48 inches of MP is not allowed on take off then dispel the myth. Tell me the
answer? Don't give me five reasons why I am dangerous and shouldn't even be
allowed the pleasure of flying the airplane. I talked with an owner of a 680FL
(Not a TCFG participant) and was told that 48 inches is possible, however the
useful life of your engine is reduced. He suggested a reduced power takeoff
of 40 inches. I found his insight and knowledge of the engine and supercharger
very helpful. He was happy to share his knowledge, he didn't suggest that I not
touch anything associated with the throttles in the airplane like Nico did.
I am also thankful that when I went to work for a 121 airline they didn't beat
me down like my fellow Commander pilots, owners, & operators did when I asked
questions regarding their equipment. They actually sent me the training materials
in advance
so I could be somewhat prepared before stepping onto their property.
It's unfortunate that the egos of pilots lead them immediately to telling people
what they shouldn't do. I guess the Wright Brothers should have stayed on
the ground with their bicycles and Lindbergh should have never departed from New
York.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 01:03 PM, CommanderFreak(at)aol.com
wrote:
> It's unfortunate that the egos of pilots lead them immediately to
> telling people what they shouldn't do. I guess the Wright Brothers
> should have stayed on the ground with their bicycles and Lindbergh
> should have never departed from New York.
WOOAAAAHHH!!! Thicken that skin a little, brother. Guys here care a
great deal about the airplanes we fly AND the people who operate
them....*especially* the new guys. Having just turned 100 hrs in my
680E, I'm still one of the new guys. I think, Freak, you misread the
slant of the "be cautious" posts. Remember, you're new to the group and
people are still trying to get a read on you. They care. They want to
help. There's some good 'ole boy needling that goes on, but I have yet
to see egos run rampant on this list. In fact, people on this list
maintain more of a professional, dignified attitude on this than any
other email list I've been a part of - and I've seen plenty.
BTW, just a word of caution. Don't resort to insulting sarchasim. Lest
you have Big AL come knocking on your door after a night with No Name.
Cheers,
Barry
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
If we are going to work on an upgraded replacement, how about and electric, MAC
servo. this would eliminate both the cable and the sender?? jb
What's a MAC servo??
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Take off |
Sounds like an "Internet check out".
Either be very careful or let us know when we should bow our head for a moment
of silent meditation.
bilbo
I have an opportunity to fly a 680FP and since I don't want to show up and seem
like an idiot can you provide me with a little info?
I have seen these direct drive superchargers on the aircraft and how do they
work?
I also notice that the MP gauge shows redline at about 50 inches and have been
told that 48 inches is not uncommom on takeoff. I notice that 48 inches is way
in the yellow arc.
What is the takeoff procedure?
What if you elect not to fly at an altitude that requires pressurization and
O2?
What is the procedure for your decent so you don't shock cool your super chargers
and you engines?
What is the service ceiling on the aircraft?
Would you mind sharing the V1 Vr V2 Vy Vx Vyse Vxse? At what speed do fly final?
At what speed do you flair?
I know that it is a great deal of questions. I would appreciate any info you
would give me.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 02:33 PM, Bow wrote:
>
> If we are going to work on an upgraded replacement, how about and
> electric, MAC servo. this would eliminate both the cable and the
> sender?? jb
>
> What's a MAC servo??
It's just a brand name for an electric trim servo. They've actually
been taken over by Ray Allen Inc. I don't know if they're approved for
anything but Experimental Category.
>
> bilbo
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LendingTree <costco(at)lendingtree.com> |
| Subject: | Your loan offer is here! |
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Director of Customer Care
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costco(at)lendingtree.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
My trim Indicators are so far from the pilots seat in my plane I would have to
pack a lunch and hike all day just to go see them. hey have to be quit the most
useless gauges in the plane.
I have just notched my trim wheels for takeoff cruise and landing. I also make
it a habit of looking at the trim tabs on preflight to make sure no one ( like
little crunk) spun them all the way around since last flight.
In my 560 I calibrated the damn thing a couple of times and the calibration only
lasted a couple of flights.
In the 685 I ignore them, I Certainly wouldn't spend a bunch of bucks fixin em.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Oxygen and altitude |
Being the brilliant scientist and medical expert that I am I would normally welcome
the opportunity to expound in polysyllabic words about the physiology of
Oxygen in the mammal at altitude.
Also being a bonafide male chauvinist pig I hate to give any credit to accomplished
women who as we all know should spend the bulk of their day in the kitchen
and not flying airplanes.
I however can not do better at explaining this subject than the young lady who
wrote the attached article.
The article is lengthy and I am sorry about the download time it will cause some
of you. It's just that this is such a very important aspect of flight that most
of us know so little about and have received scant training in.
Please do not criticize me for sending this as you know I have thin skin and my
feelings are easily hurt.
And if you do criticize me I'll smoke your sorry asses with a ton of porn and foul
words.
So shut up, read, and learn.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
I set mine by the "It flew in, it will fly out" method.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: n414c
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: trim sender
My trim Indicators are so far from the pilots seat in my plane I would have
to pack a lunch and hike all day just to go see them. hey have to be quit the
most useless gauges in the plane.
I have just notched my trim wheels for takeoff cruise and landing. I also make
it a habit of looking at the trim tabs on preflight to make sure no one ( like
little crunk) spun them all the way around since last flight.
In my 560 I calibrated the damn thing a couple of times and the calibration only
lasted a couple of flights.
In the 685 I ignore them, I Certainly wouldn't spend a bunch of bucks fixin em.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
Even experienced pilots screw up. I think this guy needs a new trim sender.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Gus Silo
Subject: FW: Broken Bird
Subject: Broken Bird
Check this out. This A/C is going to be down for a while!!!!!
http://www.artbell.com/letters87.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
> I think we all try to error in the conservative. I also think you
> might consider the fact that many of the people on this list have VERY
> little flight time(TT or ME). There are some here that barely got
> their ME tickets before buying a Commander. We are not all 121 pilots
> but we are all trying to be good pilots, and help those we can, if we
> can.
I can attest to that. I fit both of the above categories. 600TT, 100
in Commanders. This list is a valuable tool for guys like me. This
list is also valuable to guys like Bilbo with a gazillion hours but not
many in type. We all contribute, we all care. Most importantly, with
the exception of Milt who obviously has high disregard for his fellow
Commander drivers based solely on the shirts he subjects us to at
fly-ins, there is type specific experience here that is invaluable to
all...and it's FREE!
Besides, where else do you get guys that refer to themselves as "Wing
Commander" "Big Al" "Crazy Harry" "Bilbo the dildo" and "Fat Woman's
Dream"???
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
Then there is the "Freak" thing.......Oh never mind.
I was going to touch on that but "book by it's cover" and all that.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: Bow
To: CommanderFreak(at)aol.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 15:24
Subject: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander
Dear Commander Freak,
I(bilbo) am very sorry for misunderstanding your initial e-mail. I find comfort
in the fact that a few others read the same thing into it that I did.
When there is a new address on the list(commanderfreak), and little has been
said other that "HI", It is difficult to form a picture of who or what you're
dealing with. I think we all try to error in the conservative. I also think
you might consider the fact that many of the people on this list have VERY little
flight time(TT or ME). There are some here that barely got their ME tickets
before buying a Commander. We are not all 121 pilots but we are all trying
to be good pilots, and help those we can, if we can.
Then there is the "Freak" thing.......Oh never mind.
Welcome to the list and please accept my apologies.
bilbo
(ATP L-188,B727,DC-8,B-747)
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Fisher
To: CommanderFreak(at)aol.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander
Well here we go again!
Please remember that one of the problems with reading an Email or a letter
is that there's no interactive participation between the writer and the reader.
Misunderstanding the writer might not just be the readers fault but might have
something to do with the way the paragraph/s was phrased.
CommanderFreak should perhaps (now that he has clarified his question) not
jump on the readers but rephrase the question/s keeping in mind that us old farts
need non-ambiguous questions.
Try again and all parties "take a cold tablet" (chillout).
Tom.
----- Original Message -----
From: CommanderFreak(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 13:03
Subject: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander
Hey Everyone I am CommanderFreak not CommnaderIdiot. I was just asking so
I could sit in right seat of the aircraft with a foundation of knowledge to begin
my learning process. I just assumed that everyone approaches flying the same
way that I do and that is gather as much information as I can before stepping
foot in an aircraft. I guess many people just wait for the instructor to tell
them everything and never bother to read a POH, Aircraft Information Manual,
or ask a valuable resource questions (Such as Commander owners for the info.).
I appreciate the concern and suggestions of everyone. Your points are well
taken and understandable. However, JUST RELAX I am not the PIC. I sure hope
the owner of the airplane will be more willing to answer the many questions that
I have regarding his airplane. Being a CFII/MEI I answer a question that I
am asked in one of two manners 1) If I know the answer to the question I share
my knowledge with them 2) If I don't know the answer I tell them I don't know,
but will be happy to find out.
If 48 inches of MP is not allowed on take off then dispel the myth. Tell
me the answer? Don't give me five reasons why I am dangerous and shouldn't even
be allowed the pleasure of flying the airplane. I talked with an owner of a
680FL (Not a TCFG participant) and was told that 48 inches is possible, however
the useful life of your engine is reduced. He suggested a reduced power takeoff
of 40 inches. I found his insight and knowledge of the engine and supercharger
very helpful. He was happy to share his knowledge, he didn't suggest that
I not touch anything associated with the throttles in the airplane like Nico
did.
I am also thankful that when I went to work for a 121 airline they didn't
beat me down like my fellow Commander pilots, owners, & operators did when I
asked questions regarding their equipment. They actually sent me the training
materials in advance
so I could be somewhat prepared before stepping onto their property.
It's unfortunate that the egos of pilots lead them immediately to telling
people what they shouldn't do. I guess the Wright Brothers should have stayed
on the ground with their bicycles and Lindbergh should have never departed from
New York.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
n414c wrote:
> Even experienced pilots screw up. I think this guy needs a new trim sender.
Thats gonna take a LOT of bondo....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Ya know what? I'm loving seeing all the discussions going on right now.
It's good to see the chatlist alive. Ya know what else? You guys
carry on a piss poor flame war :-) In every other airplane chatlist I'm
on, there is a continuous spew of insults, profanity, name calling, and
threats. Are y'all being gentlemen for Sir Barry's sake? Shoot, even
the alleged flames carry valuable information.
Commanderfreak - good to have you join in. I hope you can understand
that we ALL wish to see you enjoy your Commander experience. I admit
that I also took your questions to mean that you were going to hop in
solo and take to the air. This is a quality group of fine folks here
who truely had your best interests at heart. We also are keenly aware
of the liabilities of providing operational guidance to someone who
could go out and bust their butt. When in doubt, always recomend the
most conservative answer you know. I hope some of the followup info was
useful and helpful. I also hope that you'll post to the list and let us
know what you thought of your first 680FP ride!
cheers to all
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
Is a trim sender someone who procures trim assy for old fart pilots???
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
Are you calling us wusses?
No shirt for you next year.
Yes I want to hear all about the FP. Which one is it?
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 7:12 PM
Subject: It's ALIVE!
> Ya know what? I'm loving seeing all the discussions going on right now.
> It's good to see the chatlist alive. Ya know what else? You guys
> carry on a piss poor flame war :-) In every other airplane chatlist I'm
> on, there is a continuous spew of insults, profanity, name calling, and
> threats. Are y'all being gentlemen for Sir Barry's sake? Shoot, even
> the alleged flames carry valuable information.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barshalom(at)aol.com <Barshalom(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Shoulder Harness |
Last week somebody posted a suggestion about shoulder harnesses from Hooker
Harness.
I called Jack Hooker to find out what he could do for my 500B.
Jack says he needs to get the details on what he did for other AC owneres so
he can check his files and tell me what he recommends for my 500B.
Any info would be appreciated. Please contact me or post to commanderchat. (I
know the harnesses are not STC'd and technically need field approval. But...
something is better than nothing)
Bill in TN
N69PT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oxygen and altitude |
In a message dated 10/30/02 15:46:08 Pacific Standard Time,
n414c(at)direcway.com writes:
> Please do not criticize me for sending this as you know I have thin skin and
> my feelings are easily hurt.
Thanks for the info, Dr. Milt, and I am deeply sorry if I failed to offend
you.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
In a message dated 10/30/02 16:21:00 Pacific Standard Time,
radialpower(at)cox.net writes:
> Fat Woman's Dream"???
Who is that? Haven't heard it before and I'm getting hypoxic from laughter.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP checkout |
Youknow what happened the last time your squaks got out!!!! BIG AL
>From: n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com>
>To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: 680FP checkout
>Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:11:55 -0600
>
>Hot Damn,
>A flame war and I didn't staret it or exacerbate it. Amazing Eh?
>
>Dare I send pictures of my squaks?
>Milt
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
In some of our cases(RED NECKED COMMANDER PILOTS)it's called a PIMP!!! BIG
AL
>From: n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com>
>To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: trim
>Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:00:22 -0600
>
>Is a trim sender someone who procures trim assy for old fart pilots???
>Milt
Get faster connections-- switch toMSN Internet Access!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
It is a damm good thing Dan and I didn't send out an email a couple of years ago
saying hey I just got my A&P license and have never worked on a flying plane,
just the junk we had at school, but I am getting ready to sign off a ferry permit
on a commander that is in terrible condition and well we have no commander
time or heck multi time for that sake, but Dan is going to get his multi license
the day before we fly the plane from Oklahoma to Rochester, New York. Can
you give us any adive that might help make the flight safer? By the way we
really should fix that rudder horn that is cracked but we can't afford to so we
will just hope that it doesn't break and even if it does heck we got rudder
trim. (realize this is pretty exciting for us because with all of our 172 time
we aren't use to this luxury)
Commander Freak- This is a true story and we went on to fly that plane around the
world. Good luck on the flight.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
Hi Gang,
Does anyone live near Lancaster, California (General William J Fox Airfield
- KWJF)?
If so, I'd very much appreciate them checking that N8467C is a Model 560F,
serial 1042-14.
This is supposed to be registered N211SR, but I think the 'new' owner has
painted the previous (& original) marks N8467C.
There does not appear to be any FAA approval for this change of marks, as
their website shows N8467C as "not Assigned/Reserved."
N8467C has been reported to me as being seen at Lancaster in both August
and September this year and the current registered owner of N211SR does
indeed have an address in Lancaster.
N211SR were special marks assigned to serial 1042-14 for the owner at the
time, Sands Realty Group Ltd. According to an FAA Form 8050-64, these marks
were assigned on 05Nov99, painted on the aircraft 05Jan00, and
so-registered on 01Feb00. Of course, there is a remote possibility that the
painting never actually occurred, but then why submit the 8050-64 saying
that they were?
This reinforces just how much I appreciate these "roving reports". If
anyone sees a derelict or otherwise interesting Commander in their travels,
I'd sure appreciate an email.
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
CLAIMS INFORMATION CONSULTANCY Visit us at:
http://www.airclaims.co.uk
http://www.worldairfleet.com
http://www.airclaimsv1.com
THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY
If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible for
return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other than
the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road, Heathrow
Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
England and Wales.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> |
Hey guys,
Things are really starting to get going again...when was the last time we
had two emails in a row from Big Al!!?
Good to see you back Big Al!
From the hallowed hall of Big Al; here are three of his best...way back when
he just signed off as "Al"...
"If your two favorite kinds of beer are,cold and wet,you might be a RED
NECKED COMMANDER PILOT! AL"
"If you are daring enough to put stops on your seat rails so that you can
slide far enough back to kiss your Ass goodby,you might be a RED NECKED
COMMANDER PILOT, AL
"If you have a magnetic sign advertising your lawn mowing business stuck on
your plane,you might be a RED NECKED COMMANDER PILOT! AL"
Cheers and ciders
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
That has to be Big AL
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander
In a message dated 10/30/02 16:21:00 Pacific Standard Time, radialpower(at)cox.net
writes:
Fat Woman's Dream"???
Who is that? Haven't heard it before and I'm getting hypoxic from laughter.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
Chris,
You are exactly correct. Aren't you glad you didn't ask.
I might have been the first in line.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Wall" <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander
> It is a damm good thing Dan and I didn't send out an email a couple of
years ago saying hey I just got my A&P license and have never worked on a
flying plane, just the junk we had at school, but I am getting ready to sign
off a ferry permit on a commander that is in terrible condition and well we
have no commander time or heck multi time for that sake, but Dan is going to
get his multi license the day before we fly the plane from Oklahoma to
Rochester, New York. Can you give us any adive that might help make the
flight safer? By the way we really should fix that rudder horn that is
cracked but we can't afford to so we will just hope that it doesn't break
and even if it does heck we got rudder trim. (realize this is pretty
exciting for us because with all of our 172 time we aren't use to this
luxury)
>
> Commander Freak- This is a true story and we went on to fly that plane
around the world. Good luck on the flight.
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
If OPEC sends you a X-Mas card,you might be a RED-NECKED COMMANDER PILOT!!!!
BIG AL
Get faster connections-- switch toMSN Internet Access!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | OOPS ... Dang it!! |
Speaking of crunching nice airplanes, check this operation out!!!!
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: tom taylor
To: Tony Sabino ; Ted Contri ; Ted & Steve Milshiemer ; Sherry Ditmer ; Rodd Browne
; Rob Bach ; Regent Air ; Martin Burnham ; Mark Dodd ; Ladd Gardner ; Jim
Chapman ; Jim & Gail Nichol ; Howard Smith ; Doug Martin ; Donna Jackson ; Codi
Hedstrom ; Brian Shul ; Bob Bietel ; Bob Bailey ; Bill Traylor ; Ben Scott
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:07 PM
Subject: Fw: OOPS ... Dang it!!
Tommy L. Taylor
www.airswap.com
(775) 835-6060
1 866 AIR-SWAP
Fax (775) 835-6066
----- Original Message -----
From: Dayle Buschkotter
To: Tom Taylor ; Steve Marino ; Sandy Rowlett ; Richard S. Fields ; Rex MacLean
; Mark Moodie ; Kevin Dyer ; John Neal ; Jeff Ross ; Intruder595(at)cs.com ; dale
wittman ; Allan Anderson ; AliMassey(at)aol.com ; Al Worth
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 6:46 PM
Subject: Fw: OOPS ... Dang it!!
Subject: Fw: OOPS ... Dang it!!
> >Score another point for the sand box team!
> >
Saudi Mechanics score another first. Mechanics were taxiing the Saudi
B-747 when this happened. Apparently they started only the outboard engines
(1and 4). They soon found out the hydraulic pumps for the brakes are on the
> >inboard engines (2 and 3).
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Lighting strikes..... |
Heres another interesting one, but it takes a couple of mins to download.
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: tom taylor
To: Rodd Browne ; Rob Bach ; Rich Kelly ; Regent Air ; Mike Powell ; Martin Burnham
; Mark Dodd ; Ladd Gardner ; Jim Chapman ; Jim & Gail Nichol ; Howard Smith
; Eric Ahlstrom
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:29 AM
Subject: Fw: Lighting strikes.....
Tommy L. Taylor
www.airswap.com
(775) 835-6060
1 866 AIR-SWAP
Fax (775) 835-6066
----- Original Message -----
From: rtnb1
To: Taylor Tom
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 6:01 AM
Subject: Fw: Lighting strikes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Clark" <jmclark2(at)earthlink.net>
To: "John M. Clark"
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:25 PM
Subject: Lighting strikes.....
> Been there,,,,, Done that,, He fails to mention how loud the ensuing
thunder
> clap can be just when your checking to see if you need to change your
> laundry...... It may be slow to finish the download, but it's worth the
> wait.
>
> Subject: Watch lightning strike this B747......
>
> As pilots, we know that aircraft are often struck be lightning when
flying
> near, or often quite far, from active thunderstorms. The fact that the
> aircraft are "not grounded" allows the lightning to travel right
"through"
> the aircraft .... often with little or no damage ..... apart from a
little
> burned hole about the size of your baby finger nail usually on the nose of
> the aircraft where the bolt enters the aircraft, and another either on
the
> tail (or sometimes a wingtip) where the bolt exits!
>
> No one is electricuted, in fact, no one feels a thing.
>
> However, they do see something!!!!! "All of a sudden there was a big
flash
> ...." Sometimes there is no damage at all. However, there is usally
some
> kind of damage ..... from minor effects, to major affects. In some cases
a
> whole series of electrical instruments and systems can be knocked out.
> Sometimes there is a fireball that goes down the isle.
>
> As a result, as pilots, we do our best to avoid putting our aircraft in
> harms way. Most pilots of course haven't seen another aircraft be struck
> .... which is why I found this video clip so fascinating!!
>
> Enter the website and you will see a video taken in Osaka Japan of a B747
> on takeoff .... and perhaps for the first time SEE how dramatic an event
a
> lightning strike can be!! ......... watch this:
>
> http://lightning.pwr.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/lrg/temp/plane.html
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
The CIA had an opening for an assassin. After all of the background checks,
interviews, and testing were done there were three finalists . . . Two men
and a woman.
For the final test, the CIA agents took one of the men to a large metal
door
and handed him a gun.
"We must know that you will follow your instructions, no matter what the
circumstances. Inside of this room, you will find your wife sitting in a
chair. Kill Her!!!"
The man said, "You can't be serious. I could never shoot my wife." The
agent
said, "Then you're not the right man for this job."
The second man was given the same instructions. He took the gun and went
into the room. All was quiet for about five minutes. Then the man came out
with tears in his eyes. "I tried, but I can't kill my wife."
The agent said, "You don't have what it takes. Take your wife and go home."
Finally, it was the woman's turn. She was given the same instructions, to
kill her husband. She took the gun and went into the room. Shots were
heard,
one shot after another. They heard screaming, crashing, banging on the
walls. After a few minutes, all was quiet. The door opened slowly and there
stood the woman. She wiped the sweat from her brow, and said, "This goddamn
gun is loaded with blanks. I had to beat him to death with the chair."
Tired of constantly being broke and stuck in an unhappy marriage, a young
husband
decided to solve his two dilemmas in one foul stroke. He took out an
insurance policy
on his wife and arranged to have her killed. Put in touch by a friend with
a shady
underworld figure who went only by the name of Artie he met up with him and
explained
the deal. Artie quoted 5,000 for the job and insisted on money up front.
The young
husband said he could only pay when the insurance came through, but Artie
was insistent.
The man opened his wallet and there was only a single pound coin inside.
Reluctantly Artie accepted this as down payment.
Several days later he followed the man and his wife shopping at Sainsburys
and surprised
her in the produce department. There he strangled her, but as she lay dying
a security guard
turned up. He couldn't leave any witnesses and so he proceeded to strangle
him also.
Unfortunately, all this was caught on CCTV and the police were called.
Artie was arrestedbefore
he even left the building. Under the intense questioning he admitted to the
whole sordid affair.
As a result the headline in the newspapers the following day was :-
ARTIE CHOKES TWO FOR A POUND IN SAINSBURYS
CLAIMS INFORMATION CONSULTANCY Visit us at:
http://www.airclaims.co.uk
http://www.worldairfleet.com
http://www.airclaimsv1.com
THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY
If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible for
return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other than
the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road, Heathrow
Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
England and Wales.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | bendix pressure carbs |
For those with pressure carbs, I just had a chat with Southeast Fuel Systems and
their flat o'haul rate on the PS5's is $1550. Interestingly enough, the tech
rep told me that since the AMC's (automagic mix control) is not an integral
part of the carb, it could be removed and bench checked/overhauled without the
carburetor. The cost for that is about $250. I fear that my AMC's may not be
working properly. When asked about a system check that would prove the AMC's
he said he thought only a high altitude flight with a consumption comparison
to mfr specs or a bench check.
To my way of thinking, an airborne check with unsatifactory consumption results
could indict either the carb or the AMC (or someones math skills), whereas a
bench check for $250 might point a finger at the offending device.
Comments anyone?
rodd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: bendix pressure carbs |
In a message dated 10/31/02 07:59:58 Pacific Standard Time,
dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
> To my way of thinking, an airborne check with unsatifactory consumption
> results could indict either the carb or the AMC (or someones math skills),
> whereas a bench check for $250 might point a finger at the offending
> device.
Rodd,
Bench everything together. That's the only way to have harmony between
components that work together.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: bendix pressure carbs |
Besides the uncertainty that comes with an in-flight check, comparing a $250 one-time
cost resulting in certain diagnosis to a flight which might burn through
that amount in flight costs alone, makes it a no-brainer.
My penny's worth.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodd Browne
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 7:56 AM
Subject: bendix pressure carbs
For those with pressure carbs, I just had a chat with Southeast Fuel Systems
and their flat o'haul rate on the PS5's is $1550. Interestingly enough, the tech
rep told me that since the AMC's (automagic mix control) is not an integral
part of the carb, it could be removed and bench checked/overhauled without
the carburetor. The cost for that is about $250. I fear that my AMC's may not
be working properly. When asked about a system check that would prove the AMC's
he said he thought only a high altitude flight with a consumption comparison
to mfr specs or a bench check.
To my way of thinking, an airborne check with unsatifactory consumption results
could indict either the carb or the AMC (or someones math skills), whereas
a bench check for $250 might point a finger at the offending device.
Comments anyone?
rodd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Sender on the Fritz again. |
In a message dated 10/30/02 2:46:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, w.bow(at)att.net
writes:
> If we are going to work on an upgraded replacement, how about and electric,
> MAC servo. this would eliminate both the cable and the sender?? jb
>
> What's a MAC servo??
>
A MAC servo is a wonderful little electric trim servo. Mostly used on
Homebuilt airplanes but now certified in the lancair and a few others. It
weighs about 4oz and is bulletproof. I have one on my Seacat that is 1000 hr
old and has spent its entire life having salt water blown all over it, works
perfect. It could easily be mounted to the rudder eliminating the $900
"speedometer cable" and since it has it's own position indicator, that would
be gone as well. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
I am about 1.5 hours away from Lancaster, Barry. I will see if I can slip
away and get you some shots of the plane. Is it reasonably certain that it
is based in Lancaster or was it spotted on the field on two occasions?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk>
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:02 AM
Subject: N8467C
> Hi Gang,
>
> Does anyone live near Lancaster, California (General William J Fox
Airfield
> - KWJF)?
>
> If so, I'd very much appreciate them checking that N8467C is a Model 560F,
> serial 1042-14.
>
> This is supposed to be registered N211SR, but I think the 'new' owner has
> painted the previous (& original) marks N8467C.
>
> There does not appear to be any FAA approval for this change of marks, as
> their website shows N8467C as "not Assigned/Reserved."
>
> N8467C has been reported to me as being seen at Lancaster in both August
> and September this year and the current registered owner of N211SR does
> indeed have an address in Lancaster.
>
> N211SR were special marks assigned to serial 1042-14 for the owner at the
> time, Sands Realty Group Ltd. According to an FAA Form 8050-64, these
marks
> were assigned on 05Nov99, painted on the aircraft 05Jan00, and
> so-registered on 01Feb00. Of course, there is a remote possibility that
the
> painting never actually occurred, but then why submit the 8050-64 saying
> that they were?
>
> This reinforces just how much I appreciate these "roving reports". If
> anyone sees a derelict or otherwise interesting Commander in their
travels,
> I'd sure appreciate an email.
>
> Very Best Regards,
>
> Barry C.
> CLAIMS INFORMATION CONSULTANCY Visit us at:
>
> http://www.airclaims.co.uk
> http://www.worldairfleet.com
> http://www.airclaimsv1.com
>
>
> THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY
>
> If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible for
> return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other than
> the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
> responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
>
> Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road,
Heathrow
> Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
> England and Wales.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
Hi Nico,
1.5 hours away seems pretty distant to me. Please, don't make a special
journey on my account!
I'm fairly sure it is based there. It was seen by two separate people on
two separate occasions, once in August, once in September. Also, the
registered owner's address is Lancaster.
I don't want to get the guy into trouble, but surely it's illegal to
operate a plane without a valid registration Certificate?
His one is surely got to be as N211SR.
My only other (very, very remote) guess is that N8467C is a covert mark on
a Commander being operated by the DEA or similar.
But please Nico, don't go miles out of your way on this. I'm sure it'll all
come out in the wash eventually!
Sincere Best Regards,
Barry
"Nico van
Niekerk" To: ,
tore.com> cc:
Subject: Re: N8467C
31/10/2002 16:45
I am about 1.5 hours away from Lancaster, Barry. I will see if I can slip
away and get you some shots of the plane. Is it reasonably certain that it
is based in Lancaster or was it spotted on the field on two occasions?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk>
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:02 AM
Subject: N8467C
> Hi Gang,
>
> Does anyone live near Lancaster, California (General William J Fox
Airfield
> - KWJF)?
>
> If so, I'd very much appreciate them checking that N8467C is a Model
560F,
> serial 1042-14.
>
> This is supposed to be registered N211SR, but I think the 'new' owner has
> painted the previous (& original) marks N8467C.
>
> There does not appear to be any FAA approval for this change of marks, as
> their website shows N8467C as "not Assigned/Reserved."
>
> N8467C has been reported to me as being seen at Lancaster in both August
> and September this year and the current registered owner of N211SR does
> indeed have an address in Lancaster.
>
> N211SR were special marks assigned to serial 1042-14 for the owner at the
> time, Sands Realty Group Ltd. According to an FAA Form 8050-64, these
marks
> were assigned on 05Nov99, painted on the aircraft 05Jan00, and
> so-registered on 01Feb00. Of course, there is a remote possibility that
the
> painting never actually occurred, but then why submit the 8050-64 saying
> that they were?
>
> This reinforces just how much I appreciate these "roving reports". If
> anyone sees a derelict or otherwise interesting Commander in their
travels,
> I'd sure appreciate an email.
>
> Very Best Regards,
>
> Barry C.
> CLAIMS INFORMATION CONSULTANCY Visit us at:
>
> http://www.airclaims.co.uk
> http://www.worldairfleet.com
> http://www.airclaimsv1.com
>
>
> THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR
ENTITY
>
> If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible
for
> delivering the transmission to the intended recipient, please notify us
by
> return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other than
> the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
> responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
>
> Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road,
Heathrow
> Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
> England and Wales.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Maybe *you* got away with it... |
...but promoting a cavalier attitude?????
On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 05:05 AM, Bow wrote:
> Chris,
> You are exactly correct. Aren't you glad you didn't ask.
> I might have been the first in line.
>
Bravado combined with ignorance don't always result in disaster, they
just dramatically up the odds. Personally, I find a suggestion
encouraging throwing caution to the wind because "I got away with it"
very irresponsible. I don't know you, Chris, so I'll assume you wrote
that tongue-in-cheek.....
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Fat Woman's Dream |
In a message dated 10/30/02 16:21:00 Pacific Standard Time,
radialpower(at)cox.net writes:
Fat Woman's Dream"???
Who is that? Haven't heard it before and I'm getting hypoxic from
laughter.
Wing Commander Gordon
> That has to be Big AL
> Milt
>
HEY!!!! That's good!!!! I never though of that, I was just trying to
get a chuckle out of you guys. If I put WCG into hysterics, I know I
was successful.
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: bendix pressure carbs |
Rodd,
A shop properly capable of overhauling the Bendix P-carbs should have a
pressure flow bench. The flow bench can simulate the induction flow as
well as temperature and pressure compensations and allow the tech to
determain that all aspects of the carb are working in harmony. I would
suggest removing the entire carb and having it checked out. I don't
know anything about "Southeast", but "Mikes A/C Fuel Metering Service"
in Tulsa, OK has the full setup and specializes in these carbs...
Chris
Rodd Browne wrote:
> For those with pressure carbs, I just had a chat with Southeast Fuel
> Systems and their flat o'haul rate on the PS5's is $1550. Interestingly
> enough, the tech rep told me that since the AMC's (automagic mix
> control) is not an integral part of the carb, it could be removed and
> bench checked/overhauled without the carburetor. The cost for that is
> about $250. I fear that my AMC's may not be working properly. When asked
> about a system check that would prove the AMC's he said he thought only
> a high altitude flight with a consumption comparison to mfr specs or a
> bench check.
>
> To my way of thinking, an airborne check with unsatifactory consumption
> results could indict either the carb or the AMC (or someones math
> skills), whereas a bench check for $250 might point a finger at the
> offending device.
>
> Comments anyone?
>
> rodd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: bendix pressure carbs |
Youre right of course. I just cant cough up $3K at the moment.
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: bendix pressure carbs
In a message dated 10/31/02 07:59:58 Pacific Standard Time, dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net
writes:
To my way of thinking, an airborne check with unsatifactory consumption results
could indict either the carb or the AMC (or someones math skills), whereas
a bench check for $250 might point a finger at the offending device.
Rodd,
Bench everything together. That's the only way to have harmony between components
that work together.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CapnSpray(at)aol.com <CapnSpray(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680FP Just Relax Wing Commander |
Hey everybody, the Max MAP is 48" at sealevel, if you are departing from a
high alt. airport you need to check the charts. the turbocharger is gear
driven and all automatic, do not overboost this engine, If you do you can
figure on overhaul within the next 5 hrs.
You can fly unpressurized, the max Differential is 3.2 psi. if you get 2.8
you have a tight airplane. I hope this helps some. good luck.
JRS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodd Browne <dc8f(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: bendix pressure carbs |
Chris
Maybe I was a little hasty by not considering a bench check first. Guess
I just assumed a bench check ultimately turned into an $1550 overhaul. I'll
check into the costs of a stand alone bench check as I agree with you and
Commander Gordon that the system really should be tested as a single unit.
rodd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: bendix pressure carbs
> Rodd,
> A shop properly capable of overhauling the Bendix P-carbs should have a
> pressure flow bench. The flow bench can simulate the induction flow as
> well as temperature and pressure compensations and allow the tech to
> determain that all aspects of the carb are working in harmony. I would
> suggest removing the entire carb and having it checked out. I don't
> know anything about "Southeast", but "Mikes A/C Fuel Metering Service"
> in Tulsa, OK has the full setup and specializes in these carbs...
>
> Chris
>
>
> Rodd Browne wrote:
> > For those with pressure carbs, I just had a chat with Southeast Fuel
> > Systems and their flat o'haul rate on the PS5's is $1550. Interestingly
> > enough, the tech rep told me that since the AMC's (automagic mix
> > control) is not an integral part of the carb, it could be removed and
> > bench checked/overhauled without the carburetor. The cost for that is
> > about $250. I fear that my AMC's may not be working properly. When asked
> > about a system check that would prove the AMC's he said he thought only
> > a high altitude flight with a consumption comparison to mfr specs or a
> > bench check.
> >
> > To my way of thinking, an airborne check with unsatifactory consumption
> > results could indict either the carb or the AMC (or someones math
> > skills), whereas a bench check for $250 might point a finger at the
> > offending device.
> >
> > Comments anyone?
> >
> > rodd
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
HI KIDS.
I have a "Heavy Hartzell" propeller STC customer who has a
pair if "really nice" (I haven't seen them) older type Spinners and B/H for
sale. He says they have no cracks, no repairs and are nicely polished.
Removed from a 560E. Bob 813-404-5918 Asking $500 each, make offer?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Maybe *you* got away with it... |
Barry,
You are exactly correct. I absolutely do believe in being prepared but I also
believe that when the first 680FP planes rolled off the line or any other airplane
for that matter, there was nobody with any experience in that model airplane.
Plenty of people utilizing the combination of previous flight training, experience,
a flight manual, and a little common sense were able to successfully
fly these aircraft.
>Bravado combined with ignorance don't always result in disaster, >they just dramatically
up the odds
Anytime a plane takes off it dramatically increases the odds of disaster.
I am the first to admit that what we did was very risky- even dangerous, but we
knew the risk and went through every effort to make sure we were as prepared
as possible. Analyzed the situation and then decided to proceed. Whether I am
turning a wrench or flying I always go at it with a heathly dose of fear and respect
for all the things that might go wrong or I might screw up.
Each person has to operate within their own limits. Barry a few weeks ago you
posted the following lines-
>We took a ride in the 680E so I could show a 74 cargo hauler how >it's really
done. He had no idea what was about to happen.....
>It started with a max climb take-off to a postive G transition to >level flight
(half roll and pull). After climbing to gain some >energy reserves, I honked
it around and came back over the field >for a two point roll into a Cuban 8.
This was followed by a >barrel roll and wing over, feathering the outboard
engine at >about 90 degrees to increase the roll rate and set up for the >knife
edge pass.
I do not recall seeing the proper entry speed for a 2 point roll into a Cuban 8
in the flight manual for a 680E, and I would not, given my current level of flying
skills, attempt such a manuever. I do, however, look forward to the day
when my experience and flying skill will allow me to safely accomplish such maneuvers.
Sometimes there is a fine line between bravado combined with ignorance,
and skill combined with preparation.
I look forward to meeting you one day and would love to get a little flight training,
I am sure that I would learn a lot.
Chris (looking for a nick name) Wall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | phil stubbs <br549phil(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness |
I'd like to put a set in the 560F as well. My FSDO is good about field
approvals but would be nice to know how the attach points were done.
Someone suggested attaching to the seat but I prefer the airframe.
Phil
N160K
>Last week somebody posted a suggestion about shoulder harnesses from Hooker
>Harness.
>
>I called Jack Hooker to find out what he could do for my 500B.
>
>Jack says he needs to get the details on what he did for other AC owneres so
>he can check his files and tell me what he recommends for my 500B.
>
>Any info would be appreciated. Please contact me or post to commanderchat.
(I
>know the harnesses are not STC'd and technically need field approval. But...
>something is better than nothing)
>
>Bill in TN
>N69PT
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Campbell <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness |
The aircraft isnt a possibility. The seat belts are attached to the seat,
not the airframe, which has no availabile structure to attach to. Likewise
the harnesses, or one could find oneself in a bad position.
The best I have been able to come up with are removable (therefore
approval-free) harnesses which attach to the (rigid) seat back on my 520's
seats. I understand that 560s, etc, have seat in which be backs freely flop
forward. It would not be possible to use this arrangement with those seats,
unless the had a latch to the back.
The only seats which TC has a clue how to do harnesses are the 500S, 685,
etc. In that case, the harnesses are attached to the seat.
In order to do it well, I think your going to have to find another seat type
(310?) and add the harnesses to it.
Bruce Campbell
ac52 n4186b
----- Original Message -----
From: "phil stubbs" <br549phil(at)mindspring.com>
To: ;
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Shoulder Harness
> I'd like to put a set in the 560F as well. My FSDO is good about field
> approvals but would be nice to know how the attach points were done.
> Someone suggested attaching to the seat but I prefer the airframe.
> Phil
> N160K
>
> >Last week somebody posted a suggestion about shoulder harnesses from
Hooker
> >Harness.
> >
> >I called Jack Hooker to find out what he could do for my 500B.
> >
> >Jack says he needs to get the details on what he did for other AC owneres
so
> >he can check his files and tell me what he recommends for my 500B.
> >
> >Any info would be appreciated. Please contact me or post to
commanderchat.
> (I
> >know the harnesses are not STC'd and technically need field approval.
But...
> >something is better than nothing)
> >
> >Bill in TN
> >N69PT
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Test pilots and acro in the 680E |
Gang,
Let me preface this by saying this is all in the spirit of healthy
dialogue, nothing is intended to be personal or attacking in
nature...anyone feel free to jump in.
On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 10:57 AM, Chris Wall wrote:
> Barry,
>
> You are exactly correct. I absolutely do believe in being prepared but
> I also believe that when the first 680FP planes rolled off the line or
> any other airplane for that matter, there was nobody with any
> experience in that model airplane. Plenty of people utilizing the
> combination of previous flight training, experience, a flight manual,
> and a little common sense were able to successfully fly these aircraft.
You're right, Chris, and anyone who does this is a TEST PILOT, wether
trained or not. I don't begrudge anyone this, but a lot of experience
in something similar and gobs of preparation are in order, at a
minimum. I think it's a good idea (huge understatement) to know your
procedures COLD when you choose to do this. I have test flown a few
Nanchang CJ-6A's, and am about to do it again. EVERY phase of flight,
including start-up, taxi, and shut down, is meticulously gone over
before getting in the plane, and then a scripted hop is executed with
every phase checked and rechecked before initiated. And this is in a
type I have flown hundreds of times.
When a new plane rolls off the production line, it has been tested,
procedures refined for safety, and factory test pilots (there's that
title again) train the new operators in most cases. In the case of the
Aero Commander, NO ONE should, or needs, to blast off without receiving
qualified training first, or having an experienced pilot along.
Look, things are fine and dandy when it all goes well. What if you had
loss of power at rotation, or lost your hydraulics on short final?
Would you do the right thing? The chances of doing the right thing if
you're new to the aircraft have been demonstrated to be very low. Of
course, there are those out there that are the exceptions, but I
wouldn't want anybody to have to live through such an ordeal to prove my
point. There is a learning curve for all of us in the beginning, and
this is where things are most likely to get you killed. I just think it
behooves all of us to minimize the risk as much as possible, as opposed
to exacerbating it.
>> Bravado combined with ignorance don't always result in disaster, >they
>> just dramatically up the odds
>
> Anytime a plane takes off it dramatically increases the odds of
> disaster.
Yeah, and you could get hit by a car crossing the street. Does that
mean we cross the street without looking both ways, and not pay
attention while we're still in harms way? C'mon, Chris, I know you can
bring it better than that!
>
> I am the first to admit that what we did was very risky- even
> dangerous, but we knew the risk and went through every effort to make
> sure we were as prepared as possible. Analyzed the situation and then
> decided to proceed. Whether I am turning a wrench or flying I always go
> at it with a heathly dose of fear and respect for all the things that
> might go wrong or I might screw up.
Me too.
>
> Each person has to operate within their own limits.
Right. Clearly though, kicking the tires and lighting the fires in a
type one has little knowledge and experience in is operating outside
one's limits. Whether or not one get's away with it is another story.
> Barry a few weeks ago you posted the following lines-
>
>> We took a ride in the 680E so I could show a 74 cargo hauler how >it's
>> really done. He had no idea what was about to happen.....
>
>> It started with a max climb take-off to a postive G transition to
>> >level flight (half roll and pull). After climbing to gain some
>> >energy reserves, I honked it around and came back over the field >for
>> a two point roll into a Cuban 8. This was followed by a >barrel roll
>> and wing over, feathering the outboard engine at >about 90 degrees to
>> increase the roll rate and set up for the >knife edge pass.
Good to see someone keeping an archive! Yes, the above post was mine,
and it was a heck of a lot of fun. These were my actions, and my
actions only. I did not, in any way, encourage others to go out and
attempt the same thing. I am a highly trained and skilled aviation
dreamer, capable of coming up with believable BS that only a mind as
warped as mine can come up with. Chris, that was a JOKE, a fishing
tale...you know the proverbial 8 inch guppie turning into a Great White
shark? Such maneuvers in a 680E would cost about $50K per flight. A
single engine knife edge pass???? Now *that* I'd like to see!
>
> I do not recall seeing the proper entry speed for a 2 point roll into a
> Cuban 8 in the flight manual for a 680E, and I would not, given my
> current level of flying skills, attempt such a manuever. I do,
> however, look forward to the day when my experience and flying skill
> will allow me to safely accomplish such maneuvers.
That will be a great day, I hope I can be there to watch! We need
another Bob Hoover, anyway.
> Sometimes there is a fine line between bravado combined with
> ignorance, and skill combined with preparation.
The line is a little more defined between dreams and reality. I fly a
lot of aerobatics, but not low-level in a 40 year old 6000lb. twin.
>
> I look forward to meeting you one day and would love to get a little
> flight training, I am sure that I would learn a lot.
I'd love to meet you too, you're quite an ambitious young lad (man, why
does 34 feel so OLD all of the sudden?). As for flight training, there
are many on this list far more qualified than I. If you would like tips
on writing believable flying stories that are complete BS, I might be
able to help. :)
> Chris (looking for a nick name) Wall
I think "Brick" is a good call sign.... :)
Barry
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Chris Wall's nickname. |
In a message dated 10/31/2002 2:05:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cwall(at)worldflight2000.com writes:
> I look forward to meeting you one day and would love to get a little flight
> training, I am sure that I would learn a lot.
>
> Chris (looking for a nick name) Wall
>
Well that's silly Chris, I would have thought that J.B. showed you all of
those entry speeds!!!
As far as a nick name goes, I have it for you already!!!!!
Chris (All the Way) Wall: Derived from "Around The World." (A.T.W.)
Cheers!! mate, and on the around the world thread......I have been thinking
about your question at the flyin in front of all present. You said "Hey
Paul, What's better, five two's, or one ten. Well the anwer is most
certainly three three's. That way you have a nine, and you avoid the last
call crunch.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | V.H.F. Antenna Install |
And you guys thought that installing radios was hard in an airplane.
Well take a look at this my friends!!
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | phil stubbs <br549phil(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness |
Sad to say but I do have floppy seats.
>The aircraft isnt a possibility. The seat belts are attached to the seat,
>not the airframe, which has no availabile structure to attach to. Likewise
>the harnesses, or one could find oneself in a bad position.
>
>The best I have been able to come up with are removable (therefore
>approval-free) harnesses which attach to the (rigid) seat back on my 520's
>seats. I understand that 560s, etc, have seat in which be backs freely flop
>forward. It would not be possible to use this arrangement with those seats,
>unless the had a latch to the back.
>
>The only seats which TC has a clue how to do harnesses are the 500S, 685,
>etc. In that case, the harnesses are attached to the seat.
>
>In order to do it well, I think your going to have to find another seat type
>(310?) and add the harnesses to it.
>
> Bruce Campbell
> ac52 n4186b
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "phil stubbs" <br549phil(at)mindspring.com>
>To: ;
>Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 11:43 AM
>Subject: Re: Shoulder Harness
>
>
>> I'd like to put a set in the 560F as well. My FSDO is good about field
>> approvals but would be nice to know how the attach points were done.
>> Someone suggested attaching to the seat but I prefer the airframe.
>> Phil
>> N160K
>>
>> >Last week somebody posted a suggestion about shoulder harnesses from
>Hooker
>> >Harness.
>> >
>> >I called Jack Hooker to find out what he could do for my 500B.
>> >
>> >Jack says he needs to get the details on what he did for other AC owneres
>so
>> >he can check his files and tell me what he recommends for my 500B.
>> >
>> >Any info would be appreciated. Please contact me or post to
>commanderchat.
>> (I
>> >know the harnesses are not STC'd and technically need field approval.
>But...
>> >something is better than nothing)
>> >
>> >Bill in TN
>> >N69PT
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Shoulder Harness |
----- Original Message -----
> Sad to say but I do have floppy seats.
>
That's OK Bow has a floppy--------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness |
In a message dated 10/31/2002 7:39:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
n414c(at)direcway.com writes:
> >Sad to say but I do have floppy seats.
> >
> That's OK Bow has a floppy--------------
>
You guys should remember that Doc. Milt can get you VIAGRA. Especially
usefull if you have droopy flaps.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness |
On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 04:32 PM, n414c wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> Sad to say but I do have floppy seats.
>>
> That's OK Bow has a floppy--------------
See, I *told* you this list is very professional! Thanks for
illustrating my point, Shirt.
Barry
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Maybe *you* got away with it... |
I'll second that! Stone is better than Brick!
We all have too much time on our hands....
Time to go scare the crap out of some kids. No, not with my flying....I
don't take kids flying.
Barry
On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 04:56 PM, Allen Reed wrote:
> If you're talking to us and don't already have a nick-name and want to
> be a RED-NECKED COMMANDER PILOT, try STONE WALL!!!!YEE HAWWW
>
>
>> From: Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com>
>> Reply-To: cwall(at)worldflight2000.com
>> To: Barry Hancock
>> CC: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>> Subject: Re: Maybe *you* got away with it...
>> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:57:33 -0500
>>
>> Barry,
>>
>> You are exactly correct. I absolutely do believe in being prepared
>> but I also believe that when the first 680FP planes rolled off the
>> line or any other airplane for that matter, there was nobody with any
>> experience in that model airplane. Plenty of people utilizing the
>> combination of previous flight training, experience, a flight manual,
>> and a little common sense were able to successfully fly these aircraft.
>>
>> >Bravado combined with ignorance don't always result in disaster,
>> >they just dramatically up the odds
>>
>> Anytime a plane takes off it dramatically increases the odds of
>> disaster.
>>
>> I am the first to admit that what we did was very risky- even
>> dangerous, but we knew the risk and went through every effort to make
>> sure we were as prepared as possible. Analyzed the situation and then
>> decided to proceed. Whether I am turning a wrench or flying I always
>> go at it with a heathly dose of fear and respect for all the things
>> that might go wrong or I might screw up.
>>
>> Each person has to operate within their own limits. Barry a few weeks
>> ago you posted the following lines-
>>
>> >We took a ride in the 680E so I could show a 74 cargo hauler how
>> >it's really done. He had no idea what was about to happen.....
>>
>> >It started with a max climb take-off to a postive G transition to
>> >level flight (half roll and pull). After climbing to gain some
>> >energy reserves, I honked it around and came back over the field >for
>> a two point roll into a Cuban 8. This was followed by a >barrel roll
>> and wing over, feathering the outboard engine at >about 90 degrees to
>> increase the roll rate and set up for the >knife edge pass.
>>
>> I do not recall seeing the proper entry speed for a 2 point roll into
>> a Cuban 8 in the flight manual for a 680E, and I would not, given my
>> current level of flying skills, attempt such a manuever. I do,
>> however, look forward to the day when my experience and flying skill
>> will allow me to safely accomplish such maneuvers. Sometimes there is
>> a fine line between bravado combined with ignorance, and skill
>> combined with preparation.
>>
>> I look forward to meeting you one day and would love to get a little
>> flight training, I am sure that I would learn a lot.
>>
>> Chris (looking for a nick name) Wall
>>
>>
>
>
> Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband.
> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Dr. Milt,
I am not aware of a standard rate per se. Most brokers start about 10% for
their fee. On larger transactions the fee is reduced as the value of the
aircraft goes up. It is like real estate fees. Some brokers are also using
a flat rate for aircraft sales or purchases. I spoke with a major broker
that found aircraft for clients. Their fee for a $2mm to $10mm jet was
$50,000.
In our new FBO, Windancer Aviation Services, we are considering doing
aircraft sales for a flat rate of $10,000 plus closing fees like title
search and documentation fees. Usually the buyer pays the title search and
other closing costs. It would include the web site listing on a major site
like ASO or Controller, trade-a-plane, and on our own web site. We would
develop a specification sheet including photos that is downloadable as a PDF
file from our web site.
Consider this a marketing survey. I am interested in the TCFG response.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
913-485-3799 Cell
What is the going rate (%) a broker gets for selling a plane?????
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Sighting for Barry |
Barry et al,
A friend call me to report a "nice looking 520 in Newton KS N520NR or
N520RL or something like that".
He said it appeared to be in good condition and regularly flying.
No pics sadly but will try again.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Maybe *you* got away with it... |
Stone Wall as in Jackson!!! THE SOUTH HAS RISEN AGAIN!!!!!! BIG AL
>From: Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
>To: Commander Chat
>Subject: Re: Maybe *you* got away with it...
>Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:58:39 -0800
>
>I'll second that! Stone is better than Brick!
>
>We all have too much time on our hands....
>
>Time to go scare the crap out of some kids. No, not with my flying....I
>don't take kids flying.
>
>Barry
>On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 04:56 PM, Allen Reed wrote:
>
>>If you're talking to us and don't already have a nick-name and want to be
>>a RED-NECKED COMMANDER PILOT, try STONE WALL!!!!YEE HAWWW
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com>
>>>Reply-To: cwall(at)worldflight2000.com
>>>To: Barry Hancock
>>>CC: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>>>Subject: Re: Maybe *you* got away with it...
>>>Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:57:33 -0500
>>>
>>>Barry,
>>>
>>>You are exactly correct. I absolutely do believe in being prepared but I
>>>also believe that when the first 680FP planes rolled off the line or any
>>>other airplane for that matter, there was nobody with any experience in
>>>that model airplane. Plenty of people utilizing the combination of
>>>previous flight training, experience, a flight manual, and a little
>>>common sense were able to successfully fly these aircraft.
>>>
>>> >Bravado combined with ignorance don't always result in disaster, >they
>>>just dramatically up the odds
>>>
>>>Anytime a plane takes off it dramatically increases the odds of disaster.
>>>
>>>I am the first to admit that what we did was very risky- even dangerous,
>>>but we knew the risk and went through every effort to make sure we were
>>>as prepared as possible. Analyzed the situation and then decided to
>>>proceed. Whether I am turning a wrench or flying I always go at it with a
>>>heathly dose of fear and respect for all the things that might go wrong
>>>or I might screw up.
>>>
>>>Each person has to operate within their own limits. Barry a few weeks
>>>ago you posted the following lines-
>>>
>>> >We took a ride in the 680E so I could show a 74 cargo hauler how >it's
>>>really done. He had no idea what was about to happen.....
>>>
>>> >It started with a max climb take-off to a postive G transition to
>>> >level flight (half roll and pull). After climbing to gain some >energy
>>>reserves, I honked it around and came back over the field >for a two
>>>point roll into a Cuban 8. This was followed by a >barrel roll and wing
>>>over, feathering the outboard engine at >about 90 degrees to increase
>>>the roll rate and set up for the >knife edge pass.
>>>
>>>I do not recall seeing the proper entry speed for a 2 point roll into a
>>>Cuban 8 in the flight manual for a 680E, and I would not, given my
>>>current level of flying skills, attempt such a manuever. I do, however,
>>>look forward to the day when my experience and flying skill will allow me
>>>to safely accomplish such maneuvers. Sometimes there is a fine line
>>>between bravado combined with ignorance, and skill combined with
>>>preparation.
>>>
>>>I look forward to meeting you one day and would love to get a little
>>>flight training, I am sure that I would learn a lot.
>>>
>>>Chris (looking for a nick name) Wall
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband.
>>http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
>>
>>
>Barry Hancock
>All Red Star
>(949) 300-5510
>radialpower(at)cox.net
>www.allredstar.com
>"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
> Consider this a marketing survey.I am interested in the TCFG response.
I have a plane that is worth $125-130K. If I use a broker, I'm
automatically upside down in the plane with a $10K fee. You can say
that it is like "real estate" but that analogy doesn't quite work. Real
Estate, at least here in California, appreciates much faster than even
classic airplanes like ours. So when you sell a house and pay a 5%
closing fee, you'll still end up with a chunk of change in your
pocket. Even if my plane is $200K, unless I need to unload it in a
hurry and am willing to take the hit, $10K is more than I can swallow.
A spec sheet, advertising, and a few phone calls don't add up to $10K in
my book. Others obviously feel differently 'cuz even guys like
Scuzzberry make a living doing it...
Now, if you want to demonstrate the effectiveness of your brokerage
through selling my 680E pro bono, I'm all ears.... :)
Barry
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Tylor Hall
>
> tylorh(at)sound.net
>
> 913-422-8869
>
> 913-485-3799 Cell
>
> What is the going rate (%) a broker gets for selling a plane?????
>
> Milt
>
>
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lowell Girod <dongirod(at)earthlink.net> |
CommanderLand;
What I have done with my 560E with 4 'floppy seat' (pilots & rear facing) is
this: After talking to Jim Addington and his Hooker shoulder harnesses that
hook on the rear facing seat's seat belts and Jack Hooker. I am having Hooker
Harness make me a combination seat belt shoulder harness, where the shoulder
harness hooks onto the seat frame of the rear seat, then pass through the opening
between the seat back and the seat bottom,(where it bends) up over the top
of the rear facing seat back over the top of the pilot seat and pilot and hooks
onto his seat belt just like the shoulder harnesses that Jim Addington uses
from Hooker. The only difference is, my rear facing seats are still usable as
the seat belts are available for the passengers. Jack Hooker informed me that
if there was no 'factory shoulder harness' available and no cutting, drilling
or welding, it was a log book entry only, which the owner is allowed to do.
He did tell me, I co uld call the FAA in Kansas City and talk to a gentlemen
there, but the FAA was trying to encourage shoulder harnesses and therefore was
allowing this. I was told the price for the seat belts and shoulder harness
would be $ 126 each seat. That sure beats the $ 2K estimate I was given for
inertial reel anchor point and local approval for an across the body (automotive
type) 3 point set up.
I of course am anxious to hear what Jim Addington finds out about his seat
project, but in the mean time, I will have a 4-point seat belt/shoulder harness
in my 560E, when and if it ever gets out of the paint shop. I would be interested
in a Velcro strap or something to kind of hold it in place on the top of
the seat back, but I have leather seats and don't want to mess up the upholstery.
Don
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- Twin Commander 560 E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
I'm in on that action. I have Hooker Harnesses in my CJ. They're
comfortable and will definitely make you stay put in a rapid
deceleration accident.
Barry
On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 09:09 PM, Lowell Girod wrote:
>
> CommanderLand;
> What I have done with my 560E with 4 'floppy seat' (pilots & rear
> facing) is this: After talking to Jim Addington and his Hooker shoulder
> harnesses that hook on the rear facing seat's seat belts and Jack
> Hooker. I am having Hooker Harness make me a combination seat belt
> shoulder harness, where the shoulder harness hooks onto the seat frame
> of the rear seat, then pass through the opening between the seat back
> and the seat bottom,(where itbends)up over thetop of the rear facing
> seat back over the top of the pilot seat and pilot and hooks onto his
> seat belt just like the shoulder harnesses that Jim Addington uses from
> Hooker. The only difference is, my rear facing seats are still usable
> as the seat belts are available for the passengers. Jack Hooker
> informed me that if there was no 'factory shoulder harness' available
> and no cutting, drilling or welding, it was a log book entry only,
> which the owner is allowed to do. He did tell me, I could call the FAA
> in Kansas City and talk to a gentlemen there, but the FAA was trying to
> encourage shoulder harnesses and therefore was allowing this. I was
> told the price for the seat belts and shoulder harness would be $ 126
> each seat. That sure beats the $ 2K estimate I was given for inertial
> reel anchor point and local approval for an across the body (automotive
> type) 3 point set up.
> I of course am anxious to hear what Jim Addington finds out about
> his seat project, but in the mean time, I will have a 4-point seat
> belt/shoulder harness in my 560E, when and if it ever gets out of the
> paint shop. I would be interested in a Velcro strap or something to
> kind of hold it in place on the top of the seat back, but I have
> leather seats and don't want to mess up the upholstery.
> Don
>
> --- Lowell Girod
> --- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
> --- Twin Commander 560 E
>
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk> |
Thanks Nico.
The DEA scenario is very remote, but still a vague possibility. There's too
much of a coincidence in that N8467C was the prior mark to N211SR, so I'm
sure they are not involved.
You are right though, I must get to California one year. Florida is another
location I'd like to get to. Plenty of Commanders in both States. Because
of vacation restrictions, mine is usually devoted to the Fly-Ins, plus
visits to the FAA and Twin Commander in Arlington, Washington, to gather
data. When that is all complete. I'll have more time available for
'Commander hunting'. Of course, retirement will give me even more time!!
Thanks again Nico.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
"Nico van
Niekerk" To:
Subject: Re: N8467C
31/10/2002 17:51
You don't seem to know California, Barry. You should come out and visit
some
time. :-) We drive to church that distance every Sunday.
Anyway, I am glad that you added the bit about the DEA because I wouldn't
want to walk up to someone busy with the airplane and ask him if I could
take pictures for our website. I will see how things go and go up there
when
I have a chance.
Thanks
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk>
To: "Nico van Niekerk"
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: N8467C
>
> Hi Nico,
>
> 1.5 hours away seems pretty distant to me. Please, don't make a special
> journey on my account!
>
> I'm fairly sure it is based there. It was seen by two separate people on
> two separate occasions, once in August, once in September. Also, the
> registered owner's address is Lancaster.
>
> I don't want to get the guy into trouble, but surely it's illegal to
> operate a plane without a valid registration Certificate?
>
> His one is surely got to be as N211SR.
>
> My only other (very, very remote) guess is that N8467C is a covert mark
on
> a Commander being operated by the DEA or similar.
>
> But please Nico, don't go miles out of your way on this. I'm sure it'll
all
> come out in the wash eventually!
>
> Sincere Best Regards,
>
> Barry
>
>
> "Nico van
> Niekerk" To:
,
>
> tore.com> cc:
> Subject: Re: N8467C
> 31/10/2002 16:45
>
>
> I am about 1.5 hours away from Lancaster, Barry. I will see if I can slip
> away and get you some shots of the plane. Is it reasonably certain that
it
> is based in Lancaster or was it spotted on the field on two occasions?
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Barry.Collman(at)airclaims.co.uk>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:02 AM
> Subject: N8467C
>
>
> > Hi Gang,
> >
> > Does anyone live near Lancaster, California (General William J Fox
> Airfield
> > - KWJF)?
> >
> > If so, I'd very much appreciate them checking that N8467C is a Model
> 560F,
> > serial 1042-14.
> >
> > This is supposed to be registered N211SR, but I think the 'new' owner
has
> > painted the previous (& original) marks N8467C.
> >
> > There does not appear to be any FAA approval for this change of marks,
as
> > their website shows N8467C as "not Assigned/Reserved."
> >
> > N8467C has been reported to me as being seen at Lancaster in both
August
> > and September this year and the current registered owner of N211SR does
> > indeed have an address in Lancaster.
> >
> > N211SR were special marks assigned to serial 1042-14 for the owner at
the
> > time, Sands Realty Group Ltd. According to an FAA Form 8050-64, these
> marks
> > were assigned on 05Nov99, painted on the aircraft 05Jan00, and
> > so-registered on 01Feb00. Of course, there is a remote possibility that
> the
> > painting never actually occurred, but then why submit the 8050-64
saying
> > that they were?
> >
> > This reinforces just how much I appreciate these "roving reports". If
> > anyone sees a derelict or otherwise interesting Commander in their
> travels,
> > I'd sure appreciate an email.
> >
> > Very Best Regards,
> >
> > Barry C.
> > CLAIMS INFORMATION CONSULTANCY Visit us at:
> >
> > http://www.airclaims.co.uk
> > http://www.worldairfleet.com
> > http://www.airclaimsv1.com
> >
>
> >
> > THIS TRANSMISSION IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR
> ENTITY
> > TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS
PRIVILEGED,
> >
> > If you are not the intended recipient or employee or agent responsible
> for
> > delivering the transmission to the intended recipient, please notify us
> by
> > return. Any distribution or copying of this document by anyone other
than
> > the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. Airclaims cannot be held
> > responsible for any alterations made to this document, intentionally or
> >
> > Airclaims Limited, Registered Office: Cardinal Point, Newall Road,
> Heathrow
> > Airport, Hounslow, Middlesex, TW6 2AS. Company Registration No. 710284
> > England and Wales.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shoulder Harness |
In a message dated 10/31/2002 7:39:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
n414c(at)direcway.com writes:
>Sad to say but I do have floppy seats.
>
That's OK Bow has a floppy--------------
You guys should remember that Doc. Milt can get you VIAGRA. Especially
usefull if you have droopy flaps.
JetPaul
Is that like Triple 2's right main gear?
Bongo 52
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com> |
>They're comfortable and will definitely make you stay put in a >rapid deceleration
accident.
They will also help when you are making the single engine inverted low pass. :)
Stone Wall
P.S. This guy has the right idea.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Test pilots and acro in the 680E |
On Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 07:31 PM, JETPAUL(at)aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/2/2002 1:15:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> radialpower(at)cox.net writes:
>
> As for whooping my ass, you might want to size me up first. I hate
> embarrasing over-zealous, still wet behind the ears types. :)
>
>
> Be Berry, Berry, Carefull......We (Those who have "noname" delivered)
> Know Stone Wall (A Fine Southern Gentleman)......Well O.K., he does
> have a big black hat!!!!
> So if you want to get SIZED UP you might want to talk to some friends
> who don't live in the state with the "No Semi-Auto" rules. You know we
> can still get 40 round clips and silencers down here. And Stone Wall
> can borrow my "don't leave rpints on it, cause it's untraicable" 38
> special any time he want's.
Hand to Hand combat is the only true means for an ass-whoopin'. Y'all
can call yourselves men when sitting behind a Vulcan cannon, but it's
when you strip away the ability to spew lead that we find out who squats
to pee....
And, oh, just because I live here, doesn't mean I agree with the
politics. Anyone wanna take a chapter out of the left-wing's playbook
and come to CA to help vote Gray-out Davis (now there's a genuine
pinko-commie-rat bastard!) out of office? Heck, they don't remember if
they're dead or alive, or even their own name (as it seems to change 7
times in one day), so why should we?
BTW, I'm sorry if I've offended any liberals out there. I know how much
you hate the truth....
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing To Waste |
That should have special emphasis to the Key West delegate.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: CommanderChat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing To Waste
In a message dated 11/02/02 17:36:43 Pacific Standard Time, keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net
writes:
Needless to say, living only 10 minutes from downtown Key West, I imagined
the worst. I wondered how you were going to deal with it. I wondered how you were
going to tell your wife.
And now you know why I offered the definition of "rear-ended" for the Southern
boys!
:-)
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
JAX Beach cell 904-349-8600 home 904-270-8926
>From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com
>To: allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: Seat Belts
>Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:05:20 EST
>
>That was the real Mc-Coy Big All.
>
>Where the hell are you living now??? Tell me where I can catch up with
>again.
>
>JetPaul
>
Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing To Waste |
But JET,out there a lot more of them are'nt women!!!!!! BIG AL
>From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com
>To: CloudCraft(at)aol.com, CommanderChat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing To Waste
>Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:04:03 EST
>
>You are not right....Any other californian type guy with limes in their
>beer
>would have fallen out and yelled whiplash!!!!!! It's the American way!!!
>Do you like the way I capitilized America, and not california??
>
>Anyway, I am very glad you were not hurt, and more glad that you introduced
>2
>more guys the same age as "Stone Wall" to aviation. Who knows, they might
>go
>around the world some day.
>
>I hear there are ALOT more women out there in california that are willing
>to
>do that than down here in the south.
>
>JetPaul
Get faster connections-- switch toMSN Internet Access!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing To Waste |
TEE HEE TEEE HEEEEE!!!! BIG(laffin his butt off) AL
>From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com
>To: keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net, CloudCraft(at)aol.com
>CC: CommanderChat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing To Waste
>Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:42:22 EST
>
>In a message dated 11/2/2002 8:33:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
> > Through the static I was able to pick up......" while crawling" ....
>"POW--
> > you got rear-ended"...... "by two lads"........" that were actually
>quite
> > nice"....... then something about..... "introductory flight". Needless
>to
> > say, living only 10 minutes from downtown Key West, I imagined the
>worst. I
> > wondered how you were going to deal with it. I wondered how you were
>going
> > to tell your wife.
>
>That should be a mastercard commercial!!!!
>
>JetPaul
Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Nickname for Chris |
O.K. damn it,try FIRE WALL!!! BIG
>From: n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com>
>To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Nickname for Chris
>Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 08:07:01 -0600
>
>Stonewall just doesn't seem to fit.
>Certainly with the breadth and depth of creative, debauched and disgusting
>people on this list we can do better than stonewall.
>
>
>Milt
Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Sneed <srglenn1(at)msn.com> |
If it is Big Al safety wiring the valve covers, I would say about one 6-pack of
his favorite at the shop rate of 1 case.
Bongo52
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Commander Chat
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: Survey
OK, this is going to sound like a silly question, but the answer is important
to me.
How long does/should it take to safety wire the valve covers on the Lycoming
engines?
Thanks!
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Bongo,
Unable to decode. Please send decoding key ASAP...
Barry
On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 04:25 AM, Glenn Sneed wrote:
> If it is Big Al safety wiring the valve covers, I would say aboutone
> 6-pack of his favorite at the shop rate of 1 case.
> Bongo52
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barry Hancock
> To: Commander Chat
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:59 PM
> Subject: Survey
>
> OK, this is going to sound like a silly question, but the answer is
> important to me.
>
> How long does/should it take to safety wire the valve covers on the
> Lycoming engines?
>
> Thanks!
> Barry Hancock
> All Red Star
> (949) 300-5510
> radialpower(at)cox.net
> www.allredstar.com
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> |
I Say Again.
For Commander Land, For Commander Land.
O scar N ovember E cho 6 P apa A lpha C harlie K elo B ravo
E cho E cho R omeo
Time is 16:32 Zulu.
Authication - S eria H otel
Bingo Out
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Hancock [mailto:radialpower(at)cox.net]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:46 AM
To: Commander Chat
Subject: Re: Survey
Bongo,
Unable to decode. Please send decoding key ASAP...
Barry
On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 04:25 AM, Glenn Sneed wrote:
If it is Big Al safety wiring the valve covers, I would say about one 6-pack
of his favorite at the shop rate of 1 case.
Bongo52
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Hancock
To: Commander Chat
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: Survey
OK, this is going to sound like a silly question, but the answer is
important to me.
How long does/should it take to safety wire the valve covers on the Lycoming
engines?
Thanks!
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barshalom(at)aol.com <Barshalom(at)aol.com> |
Anyone out there in Commanderland know where I can get OEM control locks for
AC 500B?
Thanks,
Bill in TN
N69PT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NSteyn(at)aol.com <NSteyn(at)aol.com> |
Morese Nico:
Ek dink ons moet die adres sentraliseer na Woodland Hills, sodat alles
soontoe gaan. Is daar altyd iemand wat UPS ens kan ontvang, of moet ons maar
eers met die Long bch adres aangaan?
Groetnis
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Control Lock |
In a message dated 11/4/02 8:17:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Barshalom(at)aol.com writes:
> Anyone out there in Commanderland know where I can get OEM control locks for
>
> AC 500B?
>
I don't know about OEM, but Commander Aero, 937-885-5580, ask for Gary, has a
great one. jb PS tell him you say it here. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 11/4/02 7:56:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rotaola(at)bantel.net.ve writes:
> Hi there:
>
> Does anyone have any idea where to get the motor for the cowl flaps
> for a shrike commander, at good pricing???
Try Commander Aero , ask for Gary 937-885-5580. Or Jack Chappell
909-371-7513. Tell them you say it here. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
Right after I got my Commander in 1981 The left cowl flap motor quit. I was
lucky enough to have an electronic genius for a friend. He started taking
the motor apart and found that it had a magnetic clutch in it that had
corroded. He cleaned it polished it and greased it and put it back together.
It may quit next time I use it but it has worked for 21 years.
Jim A
` N444BD
----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Binda <dbinda1(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | [[INCREDIBLE Space walk !]]] |
Note: forwarded message attached.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Shandrow <shandrow(at)earthlink.net> |
Jeff,
Can you setup the SMA Admin. site on the website to show members passwords?
To update their credit card information and stuff, we need to get into their
account from the website but don't want to reissue them a password. Plus,
when they call for a password their is no way of us know what it is.
Basically, concealling these passwords has been more trouble then it is
worth. Only do this on the website admin site, not the onsite SMA
application.
Thanks,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com <CloudCraft(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Control Lock |
In a message dated 11/04/02 08:17:38 Pacific Standard Time, Barshalom(at)aol.com
writes:
> Anyone out there in Commanderland know where I can get OEM control locks for
>
> AC 500B?
OEM? No. But take a look at
Welcome to Commander Aero
(www.commander-aero.com)
and click on the catalog tab at the bottom of the page.
Their control locks are similar, but improved over the OEM.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Sorry to bring bad news on a Mon. morning, but I just got a call from Morris Kernick.
He received an early morning call from an acquaintance in Louisiana telling
him that his friend Jim Rogers went down in a Commander on Friday night,
with 2 other souls on board as well.
This was a friend of Morris' and he'd really like some details. I'm going to start
surfing the NTSB site etc., but if any of our Commander brethren down south
might know the details, Morris would really appreciate it if you could send
what you know to me.
Thanks, and everyone be safe up there.....
/John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
According to the FAA Preliminary Report Website, it was a 500B, serial 950-16 registered
N1HV.
I think the registered owner, once a paperwork glitch was sorted, would have been
Robin Williams, of Monroe, Louisiana.
Reported as two on board, both fatal. Location was Rayville, Louisiana.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:36 PM
Subject: Commander Crash
Sorry to bring bad news on a Mon. morning, but I just got a call from Morris
Kernick. He received an early morning call from an acquaintance in Louisiana telling
him that his friend Jim Rogers went down in a Commander on Friday night,
with 2 other souls on board as well.
This was a friend of Morris' and he'd really like some details. I'm going to
start surfing the NTSB site etc., but if any of our Commander brethren down south
might know the details, Morris would really appreciate it if you could send
what you know to me.
Thanks, and everyone be safe up there.....
/John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
Here's a little more info I was able to find:
http://www.thenewsstar.com/html/F91FF5AF-6673-49A4-B4A6-9CC8EEB5E947.shtml
Evidently it was N1HV, s/n 950, and the accident occurred on a post-maintenance
check flight.
I understand that Jimmy had about 12,000 hours in Jetstars, about 23,000 TT, and
has his own 1965 500B. This is yet another great loss to the aviation community.
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: Commander Crash
Sorry to bring bad news on a Mon. morning, but I just got a call from Morris
Kernick. He received an early morning call from an acquaintance in Louisiana telling
him that his friend Jim Rogers went down in a Commander on Friday night,
with 2 other souls on board as well.
This was a friend of Morris' and he'd really like some details. I'm going to
start surfing the NTSB site etc., but if any of our Commander brethren down south
might know the details, Morris would really appreciate it if you could send
what you know to me.
Thanks, and everyone be safe up there.....
/John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Control Lock |
Buy the baron control lock from sportys it will fit just fine
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: <Barshalom(at)aol.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: Control Lock
> Anyone out there in Commanderland know where I can get OEM control locks
for
> AC 500B?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill in TN
> N69PT
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
Thanks John,
The preliminary FAA report, no doubt to be amended tomorrow, list only two on board.
The website address is:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm
Also listed today was an incident during cruise, involving a 690B, N77UA (s/n 11422)
on November 1st.
Quote (amended to typos):
"ACFT SHUDDERED AND EXPERIENCED AN UNCOMMANDED LEFT ROLL.
AFTER LANDING ACFT., TOP 6 INCHES OF RUDDER AND FORWARD CAP
ON VERTICAL STABILIZER WERE MISSING, CORPUS CRISTI, TX."
Anyone any ideas?
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: John Vormbaum ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Commander Crash
Here's a little more info I was able to find:
http://www.thenewsstar.com/html/F91FF5AF-6673-49A4-B4A6-9CC8EEB5E947.shtml
Evidently it was N1HV, s/n 950, and the accident occurred on a post-maintenance
check flight.
I understand that Jimmy had about 12,000 hours in Jetstars, about 23,000 TT,
and has his own 1965 500B. This is yet another great loss to the aviation community.
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: John Vormbaum
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: Commander Crash
Sorry to bring bad news on a Mon. morning, but I just got a call from Morris
Kernick. He received an early morning call from an acquaintance in Louisiana
telling him that his friend Jim Rogers went down in a Commander on Friday night,
with 2 other souls on board as well.
This was a friend of Morris' and he'd really like some details. I'm going to
start surfing the NTSB site etc., but if any of our Commander brethren down
south might know the details, Morris would really appreciate it if you could send
what you know to me.
Thanks, and everyone be safe up there.....
/John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
Don,
We all would like to see a photo of how that seatbelt attaches to the seat
and how it goes over the pilot's seat. I am sure that Chris would put it on
the web site. This is good development for a lot of people.
How does it prevent the seat from flopping forward? Could the seat be
modified with a brace to keep the seat from folding forward? Tom Fisher
bounced his helmet off the panel when he had to ditch. Would this harness
help prevent this?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
913-485-3799 Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: Lowell Girod [mailto:dongirod(at)earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:00 AM
To: CommanderChat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Seat Belts
CommanderLand;
What I have done with my 560E with 4 'floppy seat' (pilots & rear
facing) is this: After talking to Jim Addington and his Hooker shoulder
harnesses that hook on the rear facing seat's seat belts and Jack Hooker. I
am having Hooker Harness make me a combination seat belt shoulder harness,
where the shoulder harness hooks onto the seat frame of the rear seat, then
pass through the opening between the seat back and the seat bottom,(where it
bends) up over the top of the rear facing seat back over the top of the
pilot seat and pilot and hooks onto his seat belt just like the shoulder
harnesses that Jim Addington uses from Hooker. The only difference is, my
rear facing seats are still usable as the seat belts are available for the
passengers. Jack Hooker informed me that if there was no 'factory shoulder
harness' available and no cutting, drilling or welding, it was a log book
entry only, which the owner is allowed to do. He did tell me, I could call
the FAA in Kansas City and talk to a gentlemen there, but the FAA was trying
to encourage shoulder harnesses and therefore was allowing this. I was told
the price for the seat belts and shoulder harness would be $ 126 each seat.
That sure beats the $ 2K estimate I was given for inertial reel anchor point
and local approval for an across the body (automotive type) 3 point set up.
I of course am anxious to hear what Jim Addington finds out about his
seat project, but in the mean time, I will have a 4-point seat belt/shoulder
harness in my 560E, when and if it ever gets out of the paint shop. I would
be interested in a Velcro strap or something to kind of hold it in place on
the top of the seat back, but I have leather seats and don't want to mess up
the upholstery.
Don
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- Twin Commander 560 E
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Cost of aircraft ownership |
Frequently on the chat list the topic of aircraft cost and hourly cost comes up.
I thought what follows might be interesting.
I have just finished totaling up the costs of my 1st 16 months of ownership of
N414C and thought you all might find the numbers interesting. Attached is a spreadsheet
outlining the hourly costs.
Explanation of numbers and notes of interest:
1. N414C was purchased at a bargain price and needed a LOT of work. A thorough
prebuy was done and there were few surprises relative to unscheduled maintenance,
avionics, upgrades, and the needs for engine/prop putaways. It had been setting
idle for a long time and it's prior maintenance and upgrades were substandard
so the total amount I have in the aircraft is probably well below market
value.
2. Most of the maintenance and avionics expenses were upfront (shortly after purchase)
and should more properly be considered part of the purchase price. As
should the putaways. They are, however, something you should be prepared for when
buying a plane and are the reason a thorough prebuy by an expert is essential.
3. The putaways are not actual expenses but represent what should have been set
aside given engine and airframe time. They also were deducted from market appraisal
when determining my offered purchase price.
4. Insurance (purchased thru Gary Tillman) only increased $500 year over year.
This spanned 9/11. It is for $150,000 hull and 1mil/100k liability.
Avemco quoted $5000 ($1000 less than Tillman) the first year but I went with Gary
anyway and I am glad I did because after 9/11 their quote was $8300.
5.The $519/hr estimate for the 1st 16 months is not accurate because as mentioned
above a lot of that number should have rightly been included in the purchase
price.
6. The 3 month trend numbers should however be accurate. This is based on flying
about 300+ hrs/year.
7. When considering an aircraft purchase the difference between a 50gal/hr plane
vs. a 25gal/hr plane is significant on an annual basis.
8. Mantainence numbers may seem high to some of you but remember I do not have
the time nor aptitude to do it myself as many of you. Therefore all of the maintenance
was at prevailing rates.
9. I think everything on the plane now is up to date and running well.
10. The parts availability for the 685 has been good and I haven't had near the
problem or long wait times like I did with the 560.
11. It appears, to me at least, that the old rules of thumb for aircraft purchase
and operating expense are correct.
Total cost equal Purchase price times 2
Hourly cost equals hourly fuel cost times 3
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing To Waste |
Barry, (notice I got it right this time)
My extreme apologies. (Bow, scrape, grovels)
Where did you get that great drawing of your CJ-6???
Do they have an outline of a Twin Commander?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
913-485-3799 Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Hancock [mailto:radialpower(at)cox.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 11:52 AM
To: CommanderChat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing To Waste
On Friday, November 1, 2002, at 08:53 PM, Tylor Hall wrote:
Will this flight be in the Falcon 20 or do you need
Berry to bring over his CJ-6?
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!! And that's B*a*rry to you, mister. I've been accused of
being a lot of things, but I draw the line at fruit.
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
I just got off the phone with a friend of mine and she knew the other person on
board. His name was Dr. Woodard ?sp? and she had talked with somebdy that had
to go out to the plane to identify the body. She had sold Dr. Woodard a Cessna
206, and knew him pretty well.
Chris
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:06:34 -0000
>Thanks John,
>
>The preliminary FAA report, no doubt to be amended tomorrow, list only two on
board.
>
>The website address is:
>http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm
>
>Also listed today was an incident during cruise, involving a 690B, N77UA (s/n
11422) on November 1st.
>
>Quote (amended to typos):
>
>"ACFT SHUDDERED AND EXPERIENCED AN UNCOMMANDED LEFT ROLL.
>AFTER LANDING ACFT., TOP 6 INCHES OF RUDDER AND FORWARD CAP
>ON VERTICAL STABILIZER WERE MISSING, CORPUS CRISTI, TX."
>
>Anyone any ideas?
>
>Barry C.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Vormbaum
> To: John Vormbaum ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Commander Crash
>
>
> Here's a little more info I was able to find:
>
> http://www.thenewsstar.com/html/F91FF5AF-6673-49A4-B4A6-9CC8EEB5E947.shtml
>
> Evidently it was N1HV, s/n 950, and the accident occurred on a post-maintenance
check flight.
>
> I understand that Jimmy had about 12,000 hours in Jetstars, about 23,000 TT,
and has his own 1965 500B. This is yet another great loss to the aviation community.
>
> /J
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Vormbaum
> To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:36 AM
> Subject: Commander Crash
>
>
> Sorry to bring bad news on a Mon. morning, but I just got a call from Morris
Kernick. He received an early morning call from an acquaintance in Louisiana
telling him that his friend Jim Rogers went down in a Commander on Friday night,
with 2 other souls on board as well.
>
> This was a friend of Morris' and he'd really like some details. I'm going
to start surfing the NTSB site etc., but if any of our Commander brethren down
south might know the details, Morris would really appreciate it if you could
send what you know to me.
>
> Thanks, and everyone be safe up there.....
>
> /John
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
BlankThanks to all who sent in sources for my tail pipe,,,,I mean the tail pipe.
I am convinced now that there are none available period.
However all is not lost Randy at Aero-Space Welding is going to "repair" mine and
for only $185.00(cheap). By repair I mean I will have the original flange,
and that's about it.
AOPA has an article that I think is timely for me. It's about preventative maintenance
on exhaust pipes. When you look at where the exhaust goes when it is
"un-contained" inside the nacelle the damage could range from very expensive
to very fatal. I think I will be sending mine of one a month to get overhauled.
THANKS AGAIN, that's what the list is all about,
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
What an awful scene! It's hard to imagine what could have taken a
Commander in the hands of an obviously capable pilot down like that.
My thoughts go out to the families of the three. Although it's
doubtful, I hope they figure out what happened. If anyone finds out
what the "repairs" were, I'd like to know. It appears that the airplane
was in a wings-level attitude but obviously nose down. Gear were still
retracted it looks.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Engine Conversion |
Just thought I'd pass along an interesting tidbit of information. Some
of the Republic Seabee guys have done a very nice engine conversion.
They replaced a GO-480 with a Chevy Corvette LS1 engine. The conversion
appears to be very professional and the gearbox looks great. The
airplane has been flying for over two years now and has been undergoing
regular teardown inspections with no abnormalities. For those who are
not familiar, the LS1 was a "clean sheet" engine design by Chevy. It
was first used as a NASCAR motor and after fully de-bugged there, was
migrated to the new C5 Corvette. It is NOT a basic small-block Chevy.
It IS a magnificant engineering marvel and a work of art. Looks like a
darn good candidate for a solid aircraft engine to me - probably the
only auto engine which might really work well and compare to traditional
aircraft engines in power-to-weight ratios and longivity.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
I gots me a roll of bailing twine,works good but hard as hell to get through
them little holes. BIG AL
>From: Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
>To: Commander Chat
>Subject: Re: Survey
>Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 06:46:06 -0800
>
>Bongo,
>
>Unable to decode. Please send decoding key ASAP...
>
>Barry
>On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 04:25 AM, Glenn Sneed wrote:
>
>>If it is Big Al safety wiring the valve covers, I would say aboutone
>>6-pack of his favorite at the shop rate of 1 case.
>>Bongo52
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Barry Hancock
>>To: Commander Chat
>>Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:59 PM
>>Subject: Survey
>>
>>OK, this is going to sound like a silly question, but the answer is
>>important to me.
>>
>>How long does/should it take to safety wire the valve covers on the
>>Lycoming engines?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>Barry Hancock
>>All Red Star
>>(949) 300-5510
>>radialpower(at)cox.net
>>www.allredstar.com
>>"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>>
>>
>Barry Hancock
>All Red Star
>(949) 300-5510
>radialpower(at)cox.net
>www.allredstar.com
>"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
Ok rednecks you should like this one. I even saw some that looked good to
me.
Jim A
N444BD
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:43 PM
Subject: FW: Redneck Humor
> > > Subject: Redneck Humor
> > >
> > > <>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Conversion |
Yea,but do you have to use restrictor plates on the long flights??? BIG
>From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
>To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Engine Conversion
>Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 16:40:00 -0600
>
>Just thought I'd pass along an interesting tidbit of information. Some of
>the Republic Seabee guys have done a very nice engine conversion. They
>replaced a GO-480 with a Chevy Corvette LS1 engine. The conversion appears
>to be very professional and the gearbox looks great. The airplane has been
>flying for over two years now and has been undergoing regular teardown
>inspections with no abnormalities. For those who are not familiar, the LS1
>was a "clean sheet" engine design by Chevy. It was first used as a NASCAR
>motor and after fully de-bugged there, was migrated to the new C5 Corvette.
> It is NOT a basic small-block Chevy. It IS a magnificant engineering
>marvel and a work of art. Looks like a darn good candidate for a solid
>aircraft engine to me - probably the only auto engine which might really
>work well and compare to traditional aircraft engines in power-to-weight
>ratios and longivity.
>
>Chris
Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Redneck Humor |
Yea. You gotta watch them Louisiana State Police along I20 into Shreveport.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Addington [mailto:jtaddington(at)charter.net]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:08 PM
To: Commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: FW: Redneck Humor
Ok rednecks you should like this one. I even saw some that looked good to
me.
Jim A
N444BD
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:43 PM
Subject: FW: Redneck Humor
> > > Subject: Redneck Humor
> > >
> > > <>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
From the looks of the picture, my guess is he was past the vertical, about
95-100 deg. nose down. It looks like we are looking at the bottom of the
wing.
Bongo52
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:15 PM
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: Commander Crash
What an awful scene! It's hard to imagine what could have taken a
Commander in the hands of an obviously capable pilot down like that.
My thoughts go out to the families of the three. Although it's
doubtful, I hope they figure out what happened. If anyone finds out
what the "repairs" were, I'd like to know. It appears that the airplane
was in a wings-level attitude but obviously nose down. Gear were still
retracted it looks.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
I noticed that the landing gear was visible as well and I think we are
looking at the bottom of the wing.
How do you get inverted and land up side down??
The reason I read crash reports is to understand the why so I know a little
more.
My condolences to the families for their loss.
I read one where a baggage door came open on take off in a C-421. The pilot
shut down a good running engine and lost it. Later test flights by Cessna
with doors coming open showed that nothing would happen to door or engine.
Conclusion, fly the plane and go back and land with both engines running.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
913-485-3799 Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: Sneed, Glen [mailto:Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:36 PM
To: 'Chris Schuermann'; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: RE: Commander Crash
From the looks of the picture, my guess is he was past the vertical, about
95-100 deg. nose down. It looks like we are looking at the bottom of the
wing.
Bongo52
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:15 PM
To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: Commander Crash
What an awful scene! It's hard to imagine what could have taken a
Commander in the hands of an obviously capable pilot down like that.
My thoughts go out to the families of the three. Although it's
doubtful, I hope they figure out what happened. If anyone finds out
what the "repairs" were, I'd like to know. It appears that the airplane
was in a wings-level attitude but obviously nose down. Gear were still
retracted it looks.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Redneck Humor |
I must say that I haven't had as good a laugh for a longggggg time.
Tom.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sneed, Glen" <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
To: "'Jim Addington'" ;
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 15:41
Subject: RE: Redneck Humor
> Yea. You gotta watch them Louisiana State Police along I20 into
Shreveport.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Addington [mailto:jtaddington(at)charter.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:08 PM
> To: Commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Subject: FW: Redneck Humor
>
>
> Ok rednecks you should like this one. I even saw some that looked good to
> me.
>
> Jim A
> N444BD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:43 PM
>
> Subject: FW: Redneck Humor
>
>
> > > > Subject: Redneck Humor
> > > >
> > > > <>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: un-exhausted |
Those tail pipes are only 40+ years old. Does the tail pipe on your car
last that long?
There are repairs and there is restoration. Consider this part of the
ongoing major restoration of a very pretty bird.
Fly safe.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
913-485-3799 Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: Bow [mailto:w.bow(at)att.net]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 4:06 PM
To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;
commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: un-exhausted
Thanks to all who sent in sources for my tail pipe,,,,I mean the tail pipe.
I am convinced now that there are none available period.
However all is not lost Randy at Aero-Space Welding is going to "repair"
mine and for only $185.00(cheap). By repair I mean I will have the original
flange, and that's about it.
AOPA has an article that I think is timely for me. It's about preventative
maintenance on exhaust pipes. When you look at where the exhaust goes when
it is "un-contained" inside the nacelle the damage could range from very
expensive to very fatal. I think I will be sending mine of one a month to
get overhauled.
THANKS AGAIN, that's what the list is all about,
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Problem is, I have no idea how fast you drink! Or Big Al, for that
matter!
Over
On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 07:34 AM, Sneed, Glen wrote:
> I Say Again.
>
> For Commander Land, For Commander Land.
>
> O scar N ovember E cho 6 P apa A lpha C harlie K elo B
> ravo
> E cho E cho R omeo
>
> Time is 16:32 Zulu.
>
> Authication - S eria H otel
>
> Bingo Out
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Hancock [mailto:radialpower(at)cox.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:46 AM
> To: Commander Chat
> Subject: Re: Survey
>
>
> Bongo,
>
>
> Unable to decode. Please send decoding key ASAP...
>
>
> Barry
>
> On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 04:25 AM, Glenn Sneed wrote:
>
>
> If it is Big Al safety wiring the valve covers, I would say about one
> 6-pack
> of his favorite at the shop rate of 1 case.
>
> Bongo52
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Barry Hancock
>
> To: Commander Chat
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:59 PM
>
> Subject: Survey
>
>
> OK, this is going to sound like a silly question, but the answer is
> important to me.
>
>
> How long does/should it take to safety wire the valve covers on the
> Lycoming
> engines?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Barry Hancock
>
> All Red Star
>
> (949) 300-5510
>
> radialpower(at)cox.net
>
> www.allredstar.com
>
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>
>
> Barry Hancock
>
> All Red Star
>
> (949) 300-5510
>
> radialpower(at)cox.net
>
> www.allredstar.com
>
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
It's not how fast,it's how much enthusiasm you put into it!Ain't that
right,RED NECKED COMMANDER PILOTS!!!!! BIG AL
>From: Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
>To: "Sneed, Glen"
>CC: Commander Chat
>Subject: Re: Survey
>Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:03:17 -0800
>
>Problem is, I have no idea how fast you drink! Or Big Al, for that matter!
>
>Over
>On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 07:34 AM, Sneed, Glen wrote:
>
>>I Say Again.
>>
>>For Commander Land, For Commander Land.
>>
>>O scar N ovember E cho 6 P apa A lpha C harlie K elo B
>>ravo
>>E cho E cho R omeo
>>
>>Time is 16:32 Zulu.
>>
>>Authication - S eria H otel
>>
>>Bingo Out
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Barry Hancock [mailto:radialpower(at)cox.net]
>>Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:46 AM
>>To: Commander Chat
>>Subject: Re: Survey
>>
>>
>>
>>Bongo,
>>
>>
>>Unable to decode. Please send decoding key ASAP...
>>
>>
>>Barry
>>
>>On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 04:25 AM, Glenn Sneed wrote:
>>
>>
>>If it is Big Al safety wiring the valve covers, I would say about one
>>6-pack
>>of his favorite at the shop rate of 1 case.
>>
>>Bongo52
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>
>>From: Barry Hancock
>>
>>To: Commander Chat
>>
>>Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:59 PM
>>
>>Subject: Survey
>>
>>
>>OK, this is going to sound like a silly question, but the answer is
>>important to me.
>>
>>
>>How long does/should it take to safety wire the valve covers on the
>>Lycoming
>>engines?
>>
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Barry Hancock
>>
>>All Red Star
>>
>>(949) 300-5510
>>
>>radialpower(at)cox.net
>>
>>www.allredstar.com
>>
>>"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>>
>>
>>
>>Barry Hancock
>>
>>All Red Star
>>
>>(949) 300-5510
>>
>>radialpower(at)cox.net
>>
>>www.allredstar.com
>>
>>"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>>
>>
>Barry Hancock
>All Red Star
>(949) 300-5510
>radialpower(at)cox.net
>www.allredstar.com
>"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Geez, just when I thought I could rely on you guys for reasonable
information, I get Big AL after a night with the smooth clear stuff!!!
The reason I'm asking is because I think I've been screwed on some
maintenance bills. Could I get a little love here???
Question again, how long does it take to safety wire valve covers?
Assuming it's not the enthusiastic Big AL, or a monkey, of course (just
for balance, Big AL, don't get pissed).
I could go out and cut the safety wire and find out for myself, but I
don't do it every day so I don't think that's the best guage.
Thanks!
Barry
On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 06:07 PM, Allen Reed wrote:
> It's not how fast,it's how much enthusiasm you put into it!Ain't that
> right,RED NECKED COMMANDER PILOTS!!!!! BIG AL
>
>
>> From: Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net>
>> To: "Sneed, Glen"
>> CC: Commander Chat
>> Subject: Re: Survey
>> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:03:17 -0800
>>
>> Problem is, I have no idea how fast you drink! Or Big Al, for that
>> matter!
>>
>> Over
>> On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 07:34 AM, Sneed, Glen wrote:
>>
>>> I Say Again.
>>>
>>> For Commander Land, For Commander Land.
>>>
>>> O scar N ovember E cho 6 P apa A lpha C harlie K elo
>>> B ravo
>>> E cho E cho R omeo
>>>
>>> Time is 16:32 Zulu.
>>>
>>> Authication - S eria H otel
>>>
>>> Bingo Out
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Barry Hancock [mailto:radialpower(at)cox.net]
>>> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:46 AM
>>> To: Commander Chat
>>> Subject: Re: Survey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bongo,
>>>
>>>
>>> Unable to decode. Please send decoding key ASAP...
>>>
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 04:25 AM, Glenn Sneed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> If it is Big Al safety wiring the valve covers, I would say about one
>>> 6-pack
>>> of his favorite at the shop rate of 1 case.
>>>
>>> Bongo52
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Barry Hancock
>>>
>>> To: Commander Chat
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:59 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Survey
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, this is going to sound like a silly question, but the answer is
>>> important to me.
>>>
>>>
>>> How long does/should it take to safety wire the valve covers on the
>>> Lycoming
>>> engines?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Barry Hancock
>>>
>>> All Red Star
>>>
>>> (949) 300-5510
>>>
>>> radialpower(at)cox.net
>>>
>>> www.allredstar.com
>>>
>>> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Barry Hancock
>>>
>>> All Red Star
>>>
>>> (949) 300-5510
>>>
>>> radialpower(at)cox.net
>>>
>>> www.allredstar.com
>>>
>>> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>>>
>>>
>> Barry Hancock
>> All Red Star
>> (949) 300-5510
>> radialpower(at)cox.net
>> www.allredstar.com
>> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>
>
> Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN.
> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Barry Hancock wrote:
> Question again, how long does it take to safety wire valve covers?
okay, I'll voice an opinion.
First, I don't _think_ you're required to safety the screws on a Lyc - I
think you just are supposed to have star washers. If you DID safety
them all, I'd suppose about 15 minutes assuming you had a clear shot at
all the screws (ie, didn't have to remove any baffeling stuff).
(maybe I can get my father to weigh in on if certain models are required
to have safety wire on the valve cover screws)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Hmm, if you replace the screws with those fancy hex nuts that are drilled
for safety wire, I've seen Morris' guy do each bank of 3 cylinders in about
10 min., and do it well....so, 40 min. tops if I had to make a guess.
I think it's a GREAT idea to do the above (hey, who hasn't opened a cowling
on your commander and had a shower of screws & star lock washers fall out?
No? LIAR!).
Just my $0.02,
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Survey
>
>
> Barry Hancock wrote:
> > Question again, how long does it take to safety wire valve covers?
>
> okay, I'll voice an opinion.
> First, I don't _think_ you're required to safety the screws on a Lyc - I
> think you just are supposed to have star washers. If you DID safety
> them all, I'd suppose about 15 minutes assuming you had a clear shot at
> all the screws (ie, didn't have to remove any baffeling stuff).
>
> (maybe I can get my father to weigh in on if certain models are required
> to have safety wire on the valve cover screws)
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
In a message dated 11/4/2002 6:47:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com writes:
> From the looks of the picture, my guess is he was past the vertical, about
> 95-100 deg. nose down. It looks like we are looking at the bottom of the
> wing.
> Bongo52
>
My thoughts exactley, and I agree with Chris, I think the gear was up. It's
hard to think about that one, but maybe runaway electric trim comes to mind.
Or maybe the tail broke off, or half of the tail.
No more rumors or speculation from me guys, I have been through this too many
times. I take one look, make a guess, and then wait for imperical data.
Don't forget, those were people, and they did not do it on purpose.
Hey J.B. I bet you know this one......"And there but for the grace of god go
I."
Every ALPA magazine ends with a tribute to the latest group of union pilots
to leave this world, and it starts out with this quote. "To fly west my
friends is a flight we must all take as a final check."
Peace be with those in the plane, and with their loved ones.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
John Vormbaum wrote:
> (hey, who hasn't opened a cowling
> on your commander and had a shower of screws & star lock washers fall out?
> No? LIAR!).
Thou shalt not re-use thine star washers once removed lest thy neighbors
find thee to have a screw loose and thine oil washeth over thy hot
exhaust stack and causeth much smoking and gnashing of teeth.
Chris (no loose screws here) Schuermann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PC World <tips(at)listproc.pcworld.com> |
| Subject: | PC World's Daily Computer News [11/04/2002] |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
All kidding aside,Lucille's little pasties are not safety wired,but I did
put the neoprene gaskets on her. BIG
>From: Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
>To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Re: Survey
>Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:24:29 -0600
>
>
>Barry Hancock wrote:
>>Question again, how long does it take to safety wire valve covers?
>
>okay, I'll voice an opinion.
>First, I don't _think_ you're required to safety the screws on a Lyc - I
>think you just are supposed to have star washers. If you DID safety them
>all, I'd suppose about 15 minutes assuming you had a clear shot at all the
>screws (ie, didn't have to remove any baffeling stuff).
>
>(maybe I can get my father to weigh in on if certain models are required to
>have safety wire on the valve cover screws)
>
>Chris
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JETPAUL(at)aol.com <JETPAUL(at)aol.com> |
I have to agree with chris, never seen a 6 cylinder lyc that was safetied.
None of ours are, But if they have to be they are. I mean they might be,
unles they should be, ummm.... well it all depends on what your definition of
is is.
All saftey wire fees are plus tax, tag, and title. Options vary, and not all
equipment shown is available on all models.
O.K. SERIOUSLY NOW. I am working from memory here. There are 7 screws each
valve cover?? or is it 6.. WHO CARES?? O.K. lets say 6. they have to be
safetied to each other if you are going to do it all. That would be about 1
min per pair, if they are easily accesable, or about 36 mins total.
Now lets double the estimate to be realistic since it is an airplane. and
then increase the time by at least 50 % for getting ripped off by the local
FBO.
Here is your equation:
X=(6X6) + (200% * 1.5)
Or X= aprox. 90 to 100 mins of your shops hourly rate.
BUT CHRIS IS RIGHT!!!! About 15 mins. should do it, if they are already
uncowled.
But don't forget Big Al still has some noname and some ballin wire left from
the last time he did mine...I mean his....um I mean from when he was in class
to learn about it. um them.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
You know gang,it has'nt been long ago that I watched as ya'll debated about
test pilots and bravery and stupidity!It's a damn shame that these people
lost their lives,but just maybe,all of us can learn that know matter how
good we think we are,or how good our mechanic is,we must always figure the
worst is about to happen and stay alert.The first time I flew Lucille by
myself,you could'nt have driven a pin up my butt with a sledge hammer.I was
just waiting for something to happen,and when I got her on the ground,my
first thought was,not this time but someday.I hope my day or any of yours
never comes,but when the BIG MAN calls ya'll know we must answer.God bless
you all and keep those families in you prayers. Allen
Broadband?Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Max Schuermann <max(at)greencis.net> |
Berry and Chris, I've been setting in the background ever sense this
question was presented trying to think of any model engine that REQUIRES
the screws on the rocker box covers to be safetied and I can't think of
any. I've worked on everything from O-235s to GTSIO-480s and IO-540s plus
some R-680s and none had safety wire on the rocker box covers. Normally
they will have a flat washer with a star lock on each screw. I suppose you
could install screws with drilled heads and install safety wire if you
wanted to however. As for the time required to safety the screws, my guess
would be about 10 minutes per cover if you wanted double twisted wire and
about 2 minutes if you wanted single strand "anti rotation" wire. Just my
guesstimate.
Max Schuermann
Chris Schuermann wrote:
> Barry Hancock wrote:
> > Question again, how long does it take to safety wire valve covers?
>
> okay, I'll voice an opinion.
> First, I don't _think_ you're required to safety the screws on a Lyc - I
> think you just are supposed to have star washers. If you DID safety
> them all, I'd suppose about 15 minutes assuming you had a clear shot at
> all the screws (ie, didn't have to remove any baffeling stuff).
>
> (maybe I can get my father to weigh in on if certain models are required
> to have safety wire on the valve cover screws)
>
> Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | good beer song and kicking rear |
I have two good ones but before I get kicked out I will ask if any one is
interested as they are R rated. One showes some bare tops and the other has
a lot of F words but they are funny and real red neck.
Jim
----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Max Schuermann <max(at)greencis.net> |
I'd love to take you up on that offer if I could. I'd even do the 100
hour on your engines even if you don't have the rocker box safty wired.
:>)
Max (Chris' dad)
JETPAUL(at)aol.com wrote:
> We are going to start the annual on the 520 tommorow, if any body
> wants to come down and take a look at her while she is necked, and
> loving it, then let us know.
>
> JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: good beer song and kicking rear |
OK everyone,put the little ones to bed,you too BOW!!
>From: Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
>To: Commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: good beer song and kicking rear
>Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 21:30:11 -0600
>
>I have two good ones but before I get kicked out I will ask if any one is
>interested as they are R rated. One showes some bare tops and the other has
>a lot of F words but they are funny and real red neck.
>
> Jim
>
>
>----
>
Get faster connections-- switch toMSN Internet Access!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | fot the beer drinkin fellas |
This is R rated please do not open in front of children
JIm
Subject: Fwd: FW: fot the beer drinkin fellas
----
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 11/4/02 7:36:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, max(at)greencis.net
writes:
> Berry and Chris, I've been setting in the background ever sense this
> question was presented trying to think of any model engine that REQUIRES
> the screws on the rocker box covers to be safetied and I can't think of any
Actually there are two. The IO-360 Continental in the rear engine of the 337
Skmaster and the IO-360 Lycoming (No relation) in the Lake These are saftied
to keep a wayward screw from ruining an otherwise airworthy propeller. Morris
Kernick routinely replaces the original screws with the drilled variety on
the angle valve lycs. I have a core GSO-480 from Morris and it had them in
it. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Addington <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Not Getting Your Ass Kicked |
Not Getting Your Ass Kicked
Subject: Fw: Not Getting Your Ass Kicked
Subject:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Haha, spoken like a true "professional pilot". Y'all know how to steer, but when
it comes to getting your hands dirty.....
;-)
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com
To: johnv(at)therightresource.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Survey
In a message dated 11/4/2002 9:54:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, john(at)vormbaum.com
writes:
I think it's a GREAT idea to do the above (hey, who hasn't opened a cowling
on your commander and had a shower of screws &star lock washers fall out?
No? LIAR!).
Whoaaa there big fella, are you implying that we are supposed to open the cowlings??
That sounds like pretty tough talk if you ask me.
We are going to start the annual on the 520 tommorow, if any body wants to come
down and take a look at her while she is necked, and loving it, then let us
know.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
Yup. It looks like he took it on the nose and just piled it all up on the
cockpit. I have never seen anything like it.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sneed, Glen" <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
To: "'Chris Schuermann'" ;
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:36 PM
Subject: RE: Commander Crash
> From the looks of the picture, my guess is he was past the vertical, about
> 95-100 deg. nose down. It looks like we are looking at the bottom of the
> wing.
> Bongo52
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:15 PM
> To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Subject: Re: Commander Crash
>
>
> What an awful scene! It's hard to imagine what could have taken a
> Commander in the hands of an obviously capable pilot down like that.
> My thoughts go out to the families of the three. Although it's
> doubtful, I hope they figure out what happened. If anyone finds out
> what the "repairs" were, I'd like to know. It appears that the airplane
> was in a wings-level attitude but obviously nose down. Gear were still
> retracted it looks.
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
> . Morris Kernick routinely replaces the original screws with the
> drilled variety on the angle valve lycs. I have a core GSO-480 from
> Morris and it had them in it. jb
My plane (like most) has been through Morris' hands. That explains
that. It does not however explain $350 to do the job. Good thing I'm
not inclined to mutilate those that cross me.
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com> |
Big Al-
Sometimes I think that our first flights in the commander were in some ways the
safest because we fully expected the plane to break and realized our short comings
as pilots. Later I became complacent at times and would just get in and
go fully expecting the plane to function fine becuase she had for all the previous
flights. It wasn't until the engine failure over the red sea that I gained
a healthy appreciation for the things that could go wrong. Truth be told
it scared me bad enough that if I hadn't been on the other side of the world with
no way home but the commander, I might have walked away from flying all together.
That not being an option I got back in the plane and went on. The next
several flights were hard because I had lost all confidence in my work and
the plane. Despite what we tell ourselves it is a dangerous business/hobby that
we are involved with, but the benefit and enjoyment outwieghs the danger and
so we all continue to tempt fate. Be safe.
Firewall? Balls to the Wall
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:20:15 -0600
>
>
>You know gang,it has'nt been long ago that I watched as ya'll debated about
>test pilots and bravery and stupidity!It's a damn shame that these people
>lost their lives,but just maybe,all of us can learn that know matter how
>good we think we are,or how good our mechanic is,we must always figure the
>worst is about to happen and stay alert.The first time I flew Lucille by
>myself,you could'nt have driven a pin up my butt with a sledge hammer.I was
>just waiting for something to happen,and when I got her on the ground,my
>first thought was,not this time but someday.I hope my day or any of yours
>never comes,but when the BIG MAN calls ya'll know we must answer.God bless
>you all and keep those families in you prayers. Allen
>
>
>Broadband?Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
>http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
Guys, where are you looking at this photo?
Barry
On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 10:57 PM, Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Yup. It looks like he took it on the nose and just piled it all up on
> the
> cockpit. I have never seen anything like it.
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sneed, Glen" <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
> To: "'Chris Schuermann'" ;
>
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:36 PM
> Subject: RE: Commander Crash
>
>
>> From the looks of the picture, my guess is he was past the vertical,
>> about
>> 95-100 deg. nose down. It looks like we are looking at the bottom of
>> the
>> wing.
>> Bongo52
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
>> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:15 PM
>> To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>> Subject: Re: Commander Crash
>>
>>
>>
>> What an awful scene! It's hard to imagine what could have taken a
>> Commander in the hands of an obviously capable pilot down like that.
>> My thoughts go out to the families of the three. Although it's
>> doubtful, I hope they figure out what happened. If anyone finds out
>> what the "repairs" were, I'd like to know. It appears that the
>> airplane
>> was in a wings-level attitude but obviously nose down. Gear were still
>> retracted it looks.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
I have never had parts hit me in the head. But then I'm not a short shit, they
usually hit me well below chest level.
Hey John,
How was the honeymoon?
Milt
In a message dated 11/4/2002 9:54:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, john(at)vormbaum.com
writes:
I think it's a GREAT idea to do the above (hey, who hasn't opened a cowling
on your commander and had a shower of screws &star lock washers fall out?
No? LIAR!).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: good beer song and kicking rear |
If you get booted for that several of us will quit
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Addington
To: Commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:30 PM
Subject: good beer song and kicking rear
I have two good ones but before I get kicked out I will ask if any one is interested
as they are R rated. One showes some bare tops and the other has a lot
of F words but they are funny and real red neck.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Crunkleton <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
Barry,
You have a bathtub cowled Commamder. The rocker boxes have a baffle
installed across each cover. They are attached at each end with a screw
that also serves as a rocker box cover screw. There are two screws per
cylinder, twelve per engine that need to be safety wired. The rest of
the screws use star lock washers. If it takes longer than twenty to
thirty minutes minutes to do the entire job you really need to return to
safety wire school.
Hope this helps.
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Max Schuermann <max(at)greencis.net> |
Sounds like a plan to me.
Max
Allen Reed wrote:
> Hey Dad,want to become an honorary RED NECKED COMMANDER PILOT??? BIG AL
>
> >From: Max Schuermann <max(at)greencis.net>
> >To: JETPAUL(at)aol.com
> >CC: johnv(at)therightresource.com, commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> >Subject: Re: Survey
> >Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:39:00 -0600
> >
> >I'd love to take you up on that offer if I could. I'd even do the 100
> >hour on your engines even if you don't have the rocker box safty wired.
> >:>)
> >Max (Chris' dad)
> >
> >JETPAUL(at)aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > We are going to start the annual on the 520 tommorow, if any body
> > > wants to come down and take a look at her while she is necked, and
> > > loving it, then let us know.
> > >
> > > JetPaul
>
> Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Hindmarsh <todd(at)inpnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Conversion |
I'm all for that. You could buy a lot of LS1's for the price of 2
GSO480's. Who's going to do all the work for the STC?
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:40 PM
To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Engine Conversion
Just thought I'd pass along an interesting tidbit of information. Some
of the Republic Seabee guys have done a very nice engine conversion.
They replaced a GO-480 with a Chevy Corvette LS1 engine. The conversion
appears to be very professional and the gearbox looks great. The
airplane has been flying for over two years now and has been undergoing
regular teardown inspections with no abnormalities. For those who are
not familiar, the LS1 was a "clean sheet" engine design by Chevy. It
was first used as a NASCAR motor and after fully de-bugged there, was
migrated to the new C5 Corvette. It is NOT a basic small-block Chevy.
It IS a magnificant engineering marvel and a work of art. Looks like a
darn good candidate for a solid aircraft engine to me - probably the
only auto engine which might really work well and compare to traditional
aircraft engines in power-to-weight ratios and longivity.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Hi Milt!
The honeymoon was GREAT, except for the part where on day #2, Hurricane Isidore
hit Grand Cayman. I've never seen so much rain in one place. American Airlines
wouldn't even fly. Probably a good thing, since they were talking about evacuating
us. Oh well, we spent the last 5 days indoors, hehe.
Sorry I missed you guys at the fly-in. I'm there next year in Ohio for sure, and
us westcoasters are also talking about a Commander formation flight to Oshkosh
for a couple of days of camping. What do you think of that?
Cheers,
/J
PS: For Chris W., how about Wallflower, because he was quiet on the list for so
long...or perhaps Walleye, because with an engine failure under his belt, his
maintenance work must be a little fishy. Or, with that sense of humor, Drywall
might even work.
----- Original Message -----
From: n414c
To: JETPAUL(at)aol.com ; johnv(at)therightresource.com ; commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: Survey
I have never had parts hit me in the head. But then I'm not a short shit, they
usually hit me well below chest level.
Hey John,
How was the honeymoon?
Milt
In a message dated 11/4/2002 9:54:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, john(at)vormbaum.com
writes:
I think it's a GREAT idea to do the above (hey, who hasn't opened a cowling
on your commander and had a shower of screws &star lock washers fall out?
No? LIAR!).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash picture included (Virus checked and |
found safe).
Didn't come through... Did you send it .jpg or .jpeg??
Barry
On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 08:19 AM, Nico van Niekerk wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can see the tail went straight into the cabin. This is a vertical
> impact. I have never seen a wreckage strewn over an area the size
> smaller than the plane itself.
> Nico
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barry Hancock
> To: Nico van Niekerk
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Commander Crash
>
> Guys, where are you looking at this photo?
>
> Barry
> On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 10:57 PM, Nico van Niekerk wrote:
>
> Yup. It looks like he took it on the nose and just piled it all up on
> the
> cockpit. I have never seen anything like it.
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sneed, Glen" <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
> To: "'Chris Schuermann'" ;
>
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:36 PM
> Subject: RE: Commander Crash
>
>
> From the looks of the picture, my guess is he was past the vertical,
> about
> 95-100 deg. nose down. It looks like we are looking at the bottom of the
> wing.
> Bongo52
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:15 PM
> To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Subject: Re: Commander Crash
>
>
> What an awful scene! It's hard to imagine what could have taken a
> Commander in the hands of an obviously capable pilot down like that.
> My thoughts go out to the families of the three. Although it's
> doubtful, I hope they figure out what happened. If anyone finds out
> what the "repairs" were, I'd like to know. It appears that the airplane
> was in a wings-level attitude but obviously nose down. Gear were still
> retracted it looks.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Barry Hancock
> All Red Star
> (949) 300-5510
> radialpower(at)cox.net
> www.allredstar.com
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Hindmarsh <todd(at)inpnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
Haven't experienced that Nico.
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: Nico van Niekerk [mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:41 AM
To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com;
commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Commander chat duplicates
Does anybody else get duplicate emails from the group? I have had a
flood of
multiple copies of the same email the last couple of days, even emails
that
I have read days before. Yesterday 187 alone. If you are not having the
problem, please let me know because then I will have to saddle up a
posse
over here. I realize that if someone sends an email to both 'tech' and
'chat' then we will get two copies, and that's ok.
I appreciate your help.
Thanks
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Does anybody else get duplicate emails from the group?
Havn't seen that specifically Nico although sometimes the "replys" don't
get pruned and may have your address, the tech address, and the chat
address resulting in 3 copies.
I did see in the log that my mail system was getting rejects from your
server (cybersuperstore). It could be that the delivery did happen, but
an unknown error resulted in my server thinking that yours didn't get it
and trying again. ???
Let me know if it keeps happening.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
Hi Nico,
Strangely, I seem to receive two emails from you on the same subject, but only
one from anybody else!
Anybody have the same thing happening?
Is there something in your email set-up to cause this?
I received another copy of this one (timed the same)!
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 5:41 PM
Subject: Commander chat duplicates
| Does anybody else get duplicate emails from the group? I have had a flood of
| multiple copies of the same email the last couple of days, even emails that
| I have read days before. Yesterday 187 alone. If you are not having the
| problem, please let me know because then I will have to saddle up a posse
| over here. I realize that if someone sends an email to both 'tech' and
| 'chat' then we will get two copies, and that's ok.
| I appreciate your help.
| Thanks
| Nico
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
In a message dated 11/5/02 10:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
> Strangely, I seem to receive two emails from you on the same subject, but
> only
> one from anybody else!
Me too?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Conversion |
I believe the LS1 they are using in the SeaBee is the 305ci found in the F
Body GM cars. It rated at 320HP and is a very solid engine.
Dave Aglie, designer and fabricator for the Green Racing Team, is designing
and building an all composite 2 seater around the LS1-350 (actually 348ci).
This engine is rated a 345HP and weights almost the same as the 305ci. It
is proving to be a excellent, reliable performer. His site is
http://members.iquest.net/~aca/index.htm
Dave has developed a carbon fiber gear reduction unit (PSRU) to go with his
project. It weights 38lbs and uses off-the-shelf racing gears. The only
drawback is it uses an electric prop. He is planning on making it a single
lever operation.
The LS1-350 weights 475lbs. Adding a PSRU will up the weight anywhere from
38lbs to 80lbs depending your choice. The weight is about 575lbs out the
door.
The engine from GM as a create engine is about $9k with all the wiring
harness and computers. The PSRU cost anywhere from $4-12K depending on
weather or not you want a belt drive, planetary gear, etc to include carbon
fiber case. Add a new prop to the equation and you have a power unit cost
from approx. $18k hung on the airplane to $35k with the carbon fiber PSRU
and new electric MT prop.
In addition to picking your parts up at the local Chevy dealer, they are
reported to have excellent fuel consumption. Because the engine runs right
at the edge of detonation, I understand they are getting BSHP in the mid
0.30's. It runs well on 91Oct so the move to 100 No Lead would not have an
effect. In fact, the auto correcting ignition/fuel injection computer may
squeeze a little more power out of the same fuel.
Maintenance is less. It uses one coil per spark plug. These plugs will
last a long time. You don't mind changing the plugs more often when a
premium plug is only $4.
The LS1-350 will not get overhauled very often. The LS1-305 has lots of
meat to hone to oversized but the 350 is really thin. I believe it can only
be honed to 0.005in. After that, the block is not usable. It can not be
sleeved either. The cast iron cylinders in the aluminum block are cast into
the block at the time the block is cast.
Sorry for rambling,
Bongo52
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Hindmarsh [mailto:todd(at)inpnet.org]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:02 AM
To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: RE: Engine Conversion
I'm all for that. You could buy a lot of LS1's for the price of 2
GSO480's. Who's going to do all the work for the STC?
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:40 PM
To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Engine Conversion
Just thought I'd pass along an interesting tidbit of information. Some
of the Republic Seabee guys have done a very nice engine conversion.
They replaced a GO-480 with a Chevy Corvette LS1 engine. The conversion
appears to be very professional and the gearbox looks great. The
airplane has been flying for over two years now and has been undergoing
regular teardown inspections with no abnormalities. For those who are
not familiar, the LS1 was a "clean sheet" engine design by Chevy. It
was first used as a NASCAR motor and after fully de-bugged there, was
migrated to the new C5 Corvette. It is NOT a basic small-block Chevy.
It IS a magnificant engineering marvel and a work of art. Looks like a
darn good candidate for a solid aircraft engine to me - probably the
only auto engine which might really work well and compare to traditional
aircraft engines in power-to-weight ratios and longivity.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Craig Lundborg <dltafolk(at)inreach.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
I also get your e-mail duplicated...I also get your e-mail duplicated.
Craig...Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:41 AM
Subject: Commander chat duplicates
> Does anybody else get duplicate emails from the group? I have had a flood
of
> multiple copies of the same email the last couple of days, even emails
that
> I have read days before. Yesterday 187 alone. If you are not having the
> problem, please let me know because then I will have to saddle up a posse
> over here. I realize that if someone sends an email to both 'tech' and
> 'chat' then we will get two copies, and that's ok.
> I appreciate your help.
> Thanks
> Nico
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Haag <chrishaag.foto(at)freesurf.ch> |
Hi Nico Hi Barry!
Have been getting Nicos emails always twice, at least going back to the
middle of August, even if addressed only to one of the lists. They show the
same time.
Well, who cares...I'm quite used having to read everything twiceTWICE!!!
Or, maybe an eye-check might help!
best regards
(Swiss) Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
Just duplicates from you, there are no old ones.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 09:41
Subject: Commander chat duplicates
> Does anybody else get duplicate emails from the group? I have had a flood
of
> multiple copies of the same email the last couple of days, even emails
that
> I have read days before. Yesterday 187 alone. If you are not having the
> problem, please let me know because then I will have to saddle up a posse
> over here. I realize that if someone sends an email to both 'tech' and
> 'chat' then we will get two copies, and that's ok.
> I appreciate your help.
> Thanks
> Nico
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
Identical situation for me in that I receive duplicates all the time from
Nico.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:25
Subject: Re: Commander chat duplicates
> Hi Nico,
>
> Strangely, I seem to receive two emails from you on the same subject, but
only
> one from anybody else!
>
> Anybody have the same thing happening?
>
> Is there something in your email set-up to cause this?
>
> I received another copy of this one (timed the same)!
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Barry
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
> To: ;
>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 5:41 PM
> Subject: Commander chat duplicates
>
>
> | Does anybody else get duplicate emails from the group? I have had a
flood of
> | multiple copies of the same email the last couple of days, even emails
that
> | I have read days before. Yesterday 187 alone. If you are not having the
> | problem, please let me know because then I will have to saddle up a
posse
> | over here. I realize that if someone sends an email to both 'tech' and
> | 'chat' then we will get two copies, and that's ok.
> | I appreciate your help.
> | Thanks
> | Nico
> |
> |
> |
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON |
Commander Drivers,
I think the Chev LS 1 would be the most sensible auto engine to install in a
Commander. We have customers who build 427 cubic inch versions of this
engine (bored and stroked) and they run pretty darn good.
The stock engines run very well. My '99 Vette has almost 50,000 miles on it
with absolutely no work or maintenance done on it except clean the airfilter,
and change the oil and oil filter. Chevrolet recommends that the spark plugs
be changed after the first 100,000 miles, in fact the first scheduled
maintenance is at 100,000 miles. This same engine had a few warrantee claims
in Australia where it is used in the Holden Statesman (their full size luxury
car). My associates is Australia advise that the problem was with piston
slap noise.
Moe Mills
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSION |
In case anyone wants to know more about the design and tech details of
the LS1:
http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls1c.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
Milt,your like me,chest level is where my belt is!! BIG
>From: n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com>
>To: JETPAUL(at)aol.com, johnv(at)therightresource.com,
>commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Re: Survey
>Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 05:48:02 -0600
>
>I have never had parts hit me in the head. But then I'm not a short shit,
>they usually hit me well below chest level.
>
>Hey John,
>
>How was the honeymoon?
>Milt
>
>
> In a message dated 11/4/2002 9:54:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>john(at)vormbaum.com writes:
>
>
> I think it's a GREAT idea to do the above (hey, who hasn't opened a
>cowling
> on your commander and had a shower of screws &star lock washers fall
>out?
> No? LIAR!).
>
>
Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Conversion |
I knew something was wrong!!!How the hell did I get on the tech side.BIG
>From: Todd Hindmarsh <todd(at)inpnet.org>
>Reply-To: todd(at)inpnet.org
>To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: RE: Engine Conversion
>Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:02:27 -0700
>
>I'm all for that. You could buy a lot of LS1's for the price of 2
>GSO480's. Who's going to do all the work for the STC?
>
>Todd
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
>Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:40 PM
>To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Engine Conversion
>
>Just thought I'd pass along an interesting tidbit of information. Some
>of the Republic Seabee guys have done a very nice engine conversion.
>They replaced a GO-480 with a Chevy Corvette LS1 engine. The conversion
>
>appears to be very professional and the gearbox looks great. The
>airplane has been flying for over two years now and has been undergoing
>regular teardown inspections with no abnormalities. For those who are
>not familiar, the LS1 was a "clean sheet" engine design by Chevy. It
>was first used as a NASCAR motor and after fully de-bugged there, was
>migrated to the new C5 Corvette. It is NOT a basic small-block Chevy.
>It IS a magnificant engineering marvel and a work of art. Looks like a
>darn good candidate for a solid aircraft engine to me - probably the
>only auto engine which might really work well and compare to traditional
>
>aircraft engines in power-to-weight ratios and longivity.
>
>Chris
Get faster connections-- switch toMSN Internet Access!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n414c <n414c(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
YES I GOT @ OF THIS ONE FROM YOU
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:41 AM
Subject: Commander chat duplicates
> Does anybody else get duplicate emails from the group? I have had a flood
of
> multiple copies of the same email the last couple of days, even emails
that
> I have read days before. Yesterday 187 alone. If you are not having the
> problem, please let me know because then I will have to saddle up a posse
> over here. I realize that if someone sends an email to both 'tech' and
> 'chat' then we will get two copies, and that's ok.
> I appreciate your help.
> Thanks
> Nico
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander chat duplicates |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> What are your thoughts? If you agree with me, let me know that I can attack
> the problem from my side.
> Thanks
> Nico
Well, this has me scratching my head Nico. I got three copies of this
email - just what I'd expect - one from each list and one directly to
me. I don't recall this being a long-term problem. Must be something
that's popped up recently. I'd have to concur that I don't think it's
my mail system. The way the list is propogated, it would be pretty
unlikely that I could be doubling up messages. I'll ponder this a bit
more and wait to see if I get any more copies of this message. Will let
you know if I think of anything useful.
cheers,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash picture included (Virus checked and |
found safe).
Thanks, where did you get this? Reminds me of the DUI posters...
Awful...
B
On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 11:23 AM, Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Sorry Barry. Oh, the senior moments....
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barry Hancock
> To: Nico van Niekerk
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 9:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander Crash picture included (Virus checked and found
> safe).
>
> Didn't come through... Did you send it .jpg or .jpeg??
>
> Barry
> On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 08:19 AM, Nico van Niekerk wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can see the tail went straight into the cabin. This is a vertical
> impact. I have never seen a wreckage strewn over an area the size
> smaller than the plane itself.
> Nico
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barry Hancock
> To: Nico van Niekerk
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Commander Crash
>
> Guys, where are you looking at this photo?
>
> Barry
> On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 10:57 PM, Nico van Niekerk wrote:
>
> Yup. It looks like he took it on the nose and just piled it all up on
> the
> cockpit. I have never seen anything like it.
> Nico
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sneed, Glen" <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com>
> To: "'Chris Schuermann'" ;
>
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:36 PM
> Subject: RE: Commander Crash
>
>
> From the looks of the picture, my guess is he was past the vertical,
> about
> 95-100 deg. nose down. It looks like we are looking at the bottom of the
> wing.
> Bongo52
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 3:15 PM
> To: commanderchat2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Subject: Re: Commander Crash
>
>
> What an awful scene! It's hard to imagine what could have taken a
> Commander in the hands of an obviously capable pilot down like that.
> My thoughts go out to the families of the three. Although it's
> doubtful, I hope they figure out what happened. If anyone finds out
> what the "repairs" were, I'd like to know. It appears that the airplane
> was in a wings-level attitude but obviously nose down. Gear were still
> retracted it looks.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Barry Hancock
> All Red Star
> (949) 300-5510
> radialpower(at)cox.net
> www.allredstar.com
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>
>
> Barry Hancock
> All Red Star
> (949) 300-5510
> radialpower(at)cox.net
> www.allredstar.com
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
>
>
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON |
In a message dated 11/5/02 1:39:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, MOEMILLS(at)aol.com
writes:
> My '99 Vette has almost 50,000 miles on it with absolutely no work or
> maintenance done on it except clean the airfilter
I am encouraged to hear Moe say this, he is truly an expert. That said, I am
still of the opinion that auto engines wont hold up, long term, in an
airplane. They are ALL designed to operate, continuously, at 50% or less,
usually much less (25%). Moe says his Vette is running perfect at 50K. The
trouble is, 50K @ 25% power. Now lets see how the same engine holds up at
100% for TO and then throttling back all the way to 75%?? Anytime the ratio
exceeds 1/2 HP for each CID, they just wont last. The most dependable, long
lasting airplane engines made all have that in common (O0320 = 150HP R-985 =
450HP) when we exceed this (GTISO520 = 435HP) we have engines that seldom
make their low TBOs I really hope I am wrong, but I bet I am not. Your
thoughts??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON |
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
> I am still of the opinion that auto engines wont hold up, long term, in
> an airplane. They are ALL designed to operate, continuously, at 50% or
> less, usually much less (25%).
Jim
Until the LS1 engine showed up, I would have agreed with you 100%. I've
been carefully studying and evaluating various attempts for many years.
As you point out, there are some basic differences in the design goals
between automotive and aircraft engines. One of the most critical items
is the crankshaft. If you bolt a prop directly to an automotive crank,
you WILL break the crank. They're just not designed to deal with the
many severe stresses involved. I do believe, however, that the LS1
with a well-designed gearbox has a LOT of potential. The LS1 actually
was designed to put out much more hp than is generated in a car and
designed to do it continuously. The C5 race cars (using the same
engine) are putting out over 800hp and have been well proven over the
last few years in a number of 24 hour races running almost continuously
wide open. What I'd like to see is some serious engineering to into a
gearbox with a dampener to de-couple the prop resonance followed by a
full dynamic analysis done by Hartzell with a well-matched prop design.
After that, I'd fly behind one in a heart-beat. At 345hp continuous
out of a stock block, I think the engine would have a long life. I've
read the certification process for a new aircraft engine and think it
would be possible to certify such a setup. Jim, why dontcha try to talk
Chevy into supporting the TCFG to do this? From what I know of the
Corvette development group, they just might do it....
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON |
There is a group out of North Carolina (I do not have a name) that have a
Lancair 4 with a V-8 in the front of it.
I saw it at Sun-N-Fun a few years ago.
They have been having problems with the gearbox and the lashing from the
prop. At that time,
They said that they had solved the problem.
It this the group you are talking about?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
913-485-3799 Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:28 AM
To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
> I am still of the opinion that auto engines wont hold up, long term, in
> an airplane. They are ALL designed to operate, continuously, at 50% or
> less, usually much less (25%).
Jim
Until the LS1 engine showed up, I would have agreed with you 100%. I've
been carefully studying and evaluating various attempts for many years.
As you point out, there are some basic differences in the design goals
between automotive and aircraft engines. One of the most critical items
is the crankshaft. If you bolt a prop directly to an automotive crank,
you WILL break the crank. They're just not designed to deal with the
many severe stresses involved. I do believe, however, that the LS1
with a well-designed gearbox has a LOT of potential. The LS1 actually
was designed to put out much more hp than is generated in a car and
designed to do it continuously. The C5 race cars (using the same
engine) are putting out over 800hp and have been well proven over the
last few years in a number of 24 hour races running almost continuously
wide open. What I'd like to see is some serious engineering to into a
gearbox with a dampener to de-couple the prop resonance followed by a
full dynamic analysis done by Hartzell with a well-matched prop design.
After that, I'd fly behind one in a heart-beat. At 345hp continuous
out of a stock block, I think the engine would have a long life. I've
read the certification process for a new aircraft engine and think it
would be possible to certify such a setup. Jim, why dontcha try to talk
Chevy into supporting the TCFG to do this? From what I know of the
Corvette development group, they just might do it....
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON |
Tylor Hall wrote:
> There is a group out of North Carolina (I do not have a name) that have a
> Lancair 4 with a V-8 in the front of it.
> I saw it at Sun-N-Fun a few years ago.
> They have been having problems with the gearbox and the lashing from the
> prop. At that time,
> They said that they had solved the problem.
> It this the group you are talking about?
Well, I wasn't actually thinking of any specific PSRU vendor - just in
more general terms that someone needs to seriously design one.
There are two companies which appear to know what they're doing in this
area: Ryan Falconer (of Thunder Mustang V-12 fame). Ryan contracted the
guy who designed the gearbox for the RR Merlin to design his - it is a
work of art. The other is Florida Airboats. They designed the
reduction for the Stewart S-51 for the 454/502 Chevy and from what I've
read, seems to be quite robust.
http://www.thundermustang.com/falconer.htm
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sneed, Glen <Glen.Sneed(at)qwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON |
The residence from the prop has always posed the problem for the auto
conversions. This is the reason the majority of the PSRU's are belt driven.
If you went to the link I included yesterday, Dave Aglie has an excellent
solution to that. He uses a custom fly wheel to couple the PSRU to the
engine. It uses an X or double wedge shape male and female with rubber in
between the 2 metal surfaces. The principle is similar to the harmonic
balancer. It is not a new idea, but just implemented on a different
platform.
Another well made PSRU is available from Alternate AirPower. Here is their
web site.
http://alternate-airpower.com/index.html
WCG, your observation could be considered a law rather than an observation.
Our old technology aircraft engines are limited by the unchanging design.
The FAA regulation and low volume does not promote new production
development. Lycombing and Continental have the market to themselves. Why
develop anything else. Until they are threatened, they don't need to do
anything else.
NASA has even tried to promote improvement in the GA engine community.
After 2 years of government paid development and proof-of-concept completed,
no new technology is available.
(The remainder of the editorial comments removed.)
I don't we will ever see any real improvements until the GA community
supports it.
For What Is Worth,
Bongo52
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schuermann [mailto:chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:07 AM
To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON
Tylor Hall wrote:
> There is a group out of North Carolina (I do not have a name) that have a
> Lancair 4 with a V-8 in the front of it.
> I saw it at Sun-N-Fun a few years ago.
> They have been having problems with the gearbox and the lashing from the
> prop. At that time,
> They said that they had solved the problem.
> It this the group you are talking about?
Well, I wasn't actually thinking of any specific PSRU vendor - just in
more general terms that someone needs to seriously design one.
There are two companies which appear to know what they're doing in this
area: Ryan Falconer (of Thunder Mustang V-12 fame). Ryan contracted the
guy who designed the gearbox for the RR Merlin to design his - it is a
work of art. The other is Florida Airboats. They designed the
reduction for the Stewart S-51 for the 454/502 Chevy and from what I've
read, seems to be quite robust.
http://www.thundermustang.com/falconer.htm
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON |
Sneed, Glen wrote:
> The residence from the prop has always posed the problem for the auto
> conversions. This is the reason the majority of the PSRU's are belt driven.
Actually, there are several forces that come into play. The various
ressonances and harmonics reflected from the prop are probably the
hardest to deal with though. Matching a prop to an engine is one of the
true bit of black magic in the aviation industry. Even though a
reduction unit does help de-couple and minimize these forces, it's still
an issue. The GO-435-C2B2-6, for example, required 6th order counter
balances to keep from fatiguing the crank to failure over time.
The other main issues are the gyroscopic loads imposed by that spinning
disk area and the thrust loads. Both of these issues are solved nicely
with a PSRU.
A belt reduction works nicely on small engines, but the amount of energy
absorbed by the belt is just too great to be used on a big powerplant.
Using a belt on a 300+hp engine results in extremely high belt temps and
rapid failure.
So, who wants to fund a real certified STC project to hang LS1's on a
Commander??? :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bow <w.bow(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LS 1 Chev. CONVERSIAON |
So, who wants to fund a real certified STC project to hang LS1's on a
Commander??? :-)
Sorry, all my cash is tied up in a tail pipe for the 500A
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Allen Reed <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com> |
If you've ever takin the motor out of your plane so you could use it
Saturday night in your dirt track car,you might be a RED NECKED COMMANDER
PILOT!!!!! BIG AL
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | GA support of technology |
On Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 12:51 PM, Sneed, Glen wrote:
>
> I don't we will ever see any real improvements until the GA community
> supports it.
Well, it ain't a Commander, but Diamond Aircraft Company is using diesel
engines that produce 270hp ea. They give new meaning to fuel efficiency
and low noise levels. It really is quite an aircraft...as 4 place twins
go.
As with anything in GA, technology is s-l-o-w to advance. Anyone who
has ever investigated a new-technology driven business directed at the
GA crowd knows, you ain't gonna get rich. Most of the brilliant minded
people would rather apply themselves to a more financially rewarding
venture. The litigious nature of the industry also discourages new
business. Over-regulation discourages new business. The problem with
the GA community supporting improvements is the business climate in GA
is oppressive
Everyone wants to end up with a million dollars in aviation. Problem
is, not enough of us have 2 million to start with....
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Hey, this may not be politically correct but last night we, as a
country, at least got it correct politically. I, for one, am doing back
flips!
NO MORE DICK GEPHARDT!!!!!!!!!! Now, if we could just get rid of Tom
Daschle
Sorry for the political commentary....now back to your regularly
scheduled programming...
Barry Hancock
All Red Star
(949) 300-5510
radialpower(at)cox.net
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
Barry Hancock wrote:
> NO MORE DICK GEPHARDT!!!!!!!!!! Now, if we could just get rid of Tom
> Daschle
Wanted to get this zipped over to the "chat" side ASAP before _my_
constituants get PO'd!
Barry, you _might_ get your wish if I understand everything. Daschele
could be on his way out.
FYI, I for one, am just happy to see that Jim Inhofe was re-elected!
He's one of the few true friends of GA we have in Washington and is a
VERY loud voice for us all where it counts most. (hey, he's an Okie too).
Oh yea, no more cockfighting in Ok either :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GA support of technology |
Barry Hancock wrote:
> Well, it ain't a Commander, but Diamond Aircraft Company is using diesel
> engines that produce 270hp ea. They give new meaning to fuel efficiency
> and low noise levels. It really is quite an aircraft...as 4 place twins go.
I've been following that also. Aside from being rather strange looking,
it appears to be an impressive design.
http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/twinstar.htm
I just doesn't have the testosterone appeal of a Commander though :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> |
In a message dated 11/6/02 6:33:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
radialpower(at)cox.net writes:
> NO MORE DICK GEPHARDT!!!!!!!!!! Now, if we could just get rid of Tom
> Daschle
>
YIPPEE, YIPPEE!!!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: GA support of technology |
Good grief, a "Twinstar" is a helicopter not a stiff-wing.
Not enough names to go around I guess.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 18:44
Subject: Re: GA support of technology
>
>
> Barry Hancock wrote:
> > Well, it ain't a Commander, but Diamond Aircraft Company is using diesel
> > engines that produce 270hp ea. They give new meaning to fuel efficiency
> > and low noise levels. It really is quite an aircraft...as 4 place twins
go.
>
> I've been following that also. Aside from being rather strange looking,
> it appears to be an impressive design.
>
> http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/twinstar.htm
>
> I just doesn't have the testosterone appeal of a Commander though :-)
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GA support of technology |
Note that the Diamond only has 270HP total. 130HP each engine.
Would you go round the world in one?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
tylorh(at)sound.net
913-422-8869
913-485-3799 Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher [mailto:tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:41 PM
To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
Subject: Re: GA support of technology
Good grief, a "Twinstar" is a helicopter not a stiff-wing.
Not enough names to go around I guess.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 18:44
Subject: Re: GA support of technology
>
>
> Barry Hancock wrote:
> > Well, it ain't a Commander, but Diamond Aircraft Company is using diesel
> > engines that produce 270hp ea. They give new meaning to fuel efficiency
> > and low noise levels. It really is quite an aircraft...as 4 place twins
go.
>
> I've been following that also. Aside from being rather strange looking,
> it appears to be an impressive design.
>
> http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/twinstar.htm
>
> I just doesn't have the testosterone appeal of a Commander though :-)
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: GA support of technology |
In a Twinstar helicopter? yes.
I'm sure the plane will be slick, but it's still too small.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tylor Hall" <tylorh(at)sound.net>
To: "Tom Fisher" ;
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 20:26
Subject: RE: GA support of technology
> Note that the Diamond only has 270HP total. 130HP each engine.
>
> Would you go round the world in one?
>
> Regards,
>
> Tylor Hall
> tylorh(at)sound.net
> 913-422-8869
> 913-485-3799 Cell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Fisher [mailto:tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:41 PM
> To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
> Subject: Re: GA support of technology
>
> Good grief, a "Twinstar" is a helicopter not a stiff-wing.
> Not enough names to go around I guess.
> Tom...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 18:44
> Subject: Re: GA support of technology
>
>
> >
> >
> > Barry Hancock wrote:
> > > Well, it ain't a Commander, but Diamond Aircraft Company is using
diesel
> > > engines that produce 270hp ea. They give new meaning to fuel
efficiency
> > > and low noise levels. It really is quite an aircraft...as 4 place
twins
> go.
> >
> > I've been following that also. Aside from being rather strange looking,
> > it appears to be an impressive design.
> >
> > http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/twinstar.htm
> >
> > I just doesn't have the testosterone appeal of a Commander though :-)
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Wall <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GA support of technology |
It would be a lot cheaper and you would have more choices for airports!!!! You
can get Jet A anywhere, AVGAS is hard to come by and expensive.
But, you wouldn't look good doing it. I think the only logical solution is to take
a turbine commander!!!
Chris
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Tylor Hall <tylorh(at)sound.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:26:37 -0600
>Note that the Diamond only has 270HP total. 130HP each engine.
>
>Would you go round the world in one?
>
>Regards,
>
>Tylor Hall
>tylorh(at)sound.net
>913-422-8869
>913-485-3799 Cell
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Fisher [mailto:tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca]
>Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:41 PM
>To: commandertech2(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com
>Subject: Re: GA support of technology
>
>Good grief, a "Twinstar" is a helicopter not a stiff-wing.
>Not enough names to go around I guess.
>Tom...
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Chris Schuermann" <chris(at)skymaster.c2-tech.com>
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 18:44
>Subject: Re: GA support of technology
>
>
>>
>>
>> Barry Hancock wrote:
>> > Well, it ain't a Commander, but Diamond Aircraft Company is using diesel
>> > engines that produce 270hp ea. They give new meaning to fuel efficiency
>> > and low noise levels. It really is quite an aircraft...as 4 place twins
>go.
>>
>> I've been following that also. Aside from being rather strange looking,
>> it appears to be an impressive design.
>>
>> http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/twinstar.htm
>>
>> I just doesn't have the testosterone appeal of a Commander though :-)
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com> |
Low Level Stall Demonstration.?
Check out NTSB Report
www.flysafeinsurance.com
Gary Tillman
________________________________________________________________________________
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October 23, 2002 - November 07, 2002
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ar