Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ay
March 20, 2003 - April 24, 2003
OR)
> for a fuel stop, and on to AWO (Arlington, WA) to meet up with the fine
> folks at Air Matrix. Started out with headwinds of about 30
knots...finally
> dissapated south of Seattle. Total time SBP to AWO about 4 hrs 20 min.
Met
> at AWO by Bill Williams, Kelly Piper, and the Air Matrix crew...they even
> had lunch waiting for us. Bill and gang are restoring a 560A, which is
> absolutely beautiful. They run a first rate organization of software
> engineering, avionics testing & installation, flight testing, and full
blown
> airframe & overhaul shop run by John Puckett...really enjoyed touring
their
> immaculate facilities.
>
> After visiting a construction project in Seattle on Monday & Tuesday
> morning, the rain stopped and the weather cleared up so I could fly 53X
over
> to San Juan Island to visit another project site at Roche Harbor (a custom
> home and attached hangar). Wow...the San Juan's looked spectacular, and
> after lunch at picturesque Friday Harbor, I was headed back to AWO on
> Tuesday Afternoon. Wednesday morning John Puckett hooked up the Air
Matrix
> tug to 53X, pulled her out of the hangar, we said our goodbyes to our
hosts,
> and headed south into cloudy skies. Can you believe it...headwinds again.
> This time 40 to 50 knots on the nose. Another gas stop at LMT, dropped
off
> Tom at CCR, and home to SBP Wednesday afternoon. 10.9 hours on the hobbs,
> and a ton of great memories. Thanks to Air Matrix for their great
> Washington State hospitality.
>
> Attached are photos of Bill & Kelly in front of 53X, and the gorgeous 560A
> under construction. Check out the Air Matrix website at
www.air-matrix.com.
>
> Only downside to the trip was not being able to hook up with Captain
> JimBob...we just kept trading voicemail messages...maybe next time Jim..??
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Great Seattle Trip C:\DOCUME~1\USER\MYDOCU~1\MYPICT~1\SEA... |
In a message dated 3/20/03 5:02:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes:
> Only downside to the trip was not being able to hook up with Captain
> JimBob...we just kept trading voicemail messages...maybe next time Jim..??
Glad you had a great time. Sorry for the "no join" but, maybe next time. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Great Seattle Trip C:\DOCUME~1\USER\MYDOCU~1\MYPICT~1\SEATTL~1\P3190018.JPG; |
Hi Nico...
I think the new list server we use does not have the capacity to post
pictures. I attached a couple of photos, but sorry to say, we can't see
them...darn.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Great Seattle Trip
C:\DOCUME~1\USER\MYDOCU~1\MYPICT~1\SEATTL~1\P3190018.JPG;
>
> Randy,
> Help me out here if you will. Several emails on this list refer to
pictures
> that one can view, but I just cannot find them anywhere. They are not in
the
> photo archives. Do you guys upload them elsewhere and if so, is it
possible
> to let me know where?
> Thanks
> Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Todd Hindmarsh" <todd(at)inpnet.org> |
| Subject: | Great Seattle Trip C:\DOCUME~1\USER\MYDOCU~1\MYPICT~1\SEATTL~1\P3190018.JPG; |
You can post pictures but you have to go to the photo share link at the bottom
of any
message from the list. Post your picture there but be sure to describe the pictures
as
commander.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer,
AIA
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Great Seattle Trip
C:\DOCUME~1\USER\MYDOCU~1\MYPICT~1\SEATTL~1\P3190018.JPG;
Hi Nico...
I think the new list server we use does not have the capacity to post
pictures. I attached a couple of photos, but sorry to say, we can't see
them...darn.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Great Seattle Trip
C:\DOCUME~1\USER\MYDOCU~1\MYPICT~1\SEATTL~1\P3190018.JPG;
>
> Randy,
> Help me out here if you will. Several emails on this list refer to
pictures
> that one can view, but I just cannot find them anywhere. They are not in
the
> photo archives. Do you guys upload them elsewhere and if so, is it
possible
> to let me know where?
> Thanks
> Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: How many 680FP Aero Commanders are there? |
The FAA have not done too well in pigeon-holing the 680F(P). However, to be
fair, the serial number plate on a 680F(P) does not reflect the pressurization
package. It will just say '680F'. In fact, the unit number on a 680F(P) runs in
the same sequence as a 680F, they do not have their own identifiable sequence.
Luckily, internal documents of the Manufacturer did identify them.
My records indicate that there are 23 Models 680F(P) around. 19 are in the USA,
with 4 elsewhere in the World.
Lastly, 47 680F(P)'s left the factory, not 46.
The best-looking one? N680RR - OF COURSE!
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: How many 680FP Aero Commanders are there?
|
| Fellow Commander Drivers:
|
| The new web page is really great. While checking our the FAA registry
| through the link I found that there were only three 680F(P) aircraft listed,
| however my plane (N680RR) is listed as a 680F.
|
| Does anyone (Barry) have any idea about how many 680F(p) aircraft might still
| be in the air? There were only 46 built according to the "Guide to the Piston
| Powered Aero Commanders" list?
|
| Best regards,
|
| Moe
| N680RR
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: How many 680FP Aero Commanders are there? |
Thank you very much!
Moe
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
HI KIDS.
I was just wondering if anybody is going to Scottsdale??
Barry Colman and I will be there (Weather permitting for me). Moe, will you
make it this year?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re:Commanders at Lantana |
Hi Al,
Apologies for not getting back to you sooner, but I've been busy preparing for
the research trip to Twin Commander, as I leave here next Tuesday.
I've attached the history of N6289B, serial number 676.
Can I raise one question with you? You say the all-white fuselage is probably
N3824C, but I have no record of any accident. Is this the same aircraft as the
guy saw last year? If so, was it corrosion which caused its demise? It is serial
number 697, which was owned by Candy Yellow Apple Inc., until it was sold to
Hartford Holding Corp., on August 3rd 1998.
The green primer one, if it is N303H, is a Model 560F, serial number 1312-62.
Thanks again for your help Al, it is much appreciated.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: <alh1(at)juno.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re:Commanders at Lantana
|
| barry, i went back to the airport and it looks like the commanders have been
busy at night because there are a few new ones on the field that i have not
mentioned in the past. two of them do not have an installed serial plate. the
one in primer has been on the field for at least 10 years without flying. i am
told the n number is n303H. it is either a 500a or b, but i did not look at the
engines so i am not sure. the next one is a 500 and jim has the serial plate.
the number is either n722wr or n58me. in any event it is undergoing a complete
restoration and will be beautiful when finished and will be n58me for the owner,
marine exhaust.
|
| the third one i do not believe i have mentioned before is without an n number
but has a serial plate. i am told the n number ends in 56B, but the serial
plate is 808 and it is a 500. we have n6289b, n628AH (formerly n6287B) n58E and
a 500a it has continental engines) n 10ME
| (it is also being restored)(the s/n plate says 00A-900-9) and 58ME in the
hangar.
|
| outside we have 24c, 89m, 41C and 56B. those are in various stages of
repair. 56B does not have the n number on the aircraft and is blue and white.
it has a s/n
|
| n10me does not have the n number on the aircraft and is also a blue and white
bird. it has a s/n.
|
| n303 h and n58me do not have n numbers on them nor do they have s/n plates.
as i said, 303 h is in primer, zinc chromate and n58me is white with green and
pink island colors.
|
| hope some of this helps. we have almost completed a kevlar nose cone for the
500 and an upper and lower cowling in kevlar for the 500. they are beautiful.
jim schiller at lantana, florida is one of the most knowledgeable mechanics in
the country.
|
| let me know if you need more information. do you have the ownership history
of n6289b handy and it is a corrosion free aircraft that we should have ready
for sale in about 60 days.
|
| al hoffman
|
|
| h
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Milt,
2 more e-mails returned today.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | sir barry - commanders at lantana, florida |
dear barry, you are correct, 3824C is no more. it was scrapped because of the
cracks in the spar. it had the wings removed and was white when your friend saw
it. it is no longer on the field. this is #2 500 with a spar crack, but it
was high time and flew to the islands constantly.
n303H is in primer and still on the field, but has not flown to my knowledge for
at least ten years.
anything else, always glad to help. al hoffman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "todd(at)inpnet.org" <todd(at)inpnet.org> |
| Subject: | TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
I scheduled to go and paid the fee but it looks like I might not make it
due to work needs. Since my plane is still getting its annual done I will
have to fly commercial if I do go.
Hope to see you there.
Todd
Original Message:
-----------------
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:03:44 EST
Subject: Commander-List: TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY
HI KIDS.
I was just wondering if anybody is going to Scottsdale??
Barry Colman and I will be there (Weather permitting for me). Moe, will
you
make it this year?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
In a message dated 3/22/03 3:03:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, todd(at)inpnet.org
writes:
> Hope to see you there.
>
> Todd
Me to.. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | 7-Day Matronics List Browse Enhancement... |
Dear Listers,
Neil Hulin of the Zenith-List at Matronics wrote to me suggesting I add a
"total of available messages" column to the 7-Day List Browse Main page,
and it seemed like a great idea! I've made the modifications and I think
many will find it extremely helpful as well. Have a look at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse/
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin...
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Hi gang,
There's a new company out that is doing ANR cabins. Looks like an
awesome idea.... http://www.quietflight-llc.com/
I spoke with the guy this morning...very professional. He said a 4
place system runs about $7K.
My big question is this. He had problems doing a 560 because of the
huge number of noise spikes due to the geared motors, firing sequence,
props, etc. Am I correct in assuming that I would have the same issues
in the 680E? I know some of you techies out there might be able to
help....
Thanks in advance for your input!
BTW, flew 680E up to Morris' new place the other day. I'm looking
forward to getting the annual/100 hr./sqwaks done, AND it looks like I
have some interest in a partnership....gulp....again. However, I'm much
more comfortable entering a partnership again after receiving my Masters
in Airplane Partnerships for the P.O. School of Deception and Dishonesty.
Cheers,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Patrick Nickles" <aerocommander(at)nickles.cc> |
Hi Barry -
I had QuietFlight installed in my single-engine Commander last summer
and it was money well spent. I don't know how well it would work in the
different Twin Commander models, but in my baby Commander it works as
advertised. The cockpit IS more quiet, BUT I believe the most important
factor is the vibration reduction which significantly lowers overall
pilot fatigue.
(I emailed him after buying the system and he posted my comments on his
website. No, I don't have any ownership interest in the product - I
just know that I plan to have the system installed in any future
aircraft I might own (i.e. hopefully a Twin Commander in the near
future.))
Patrick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Buddy Windham <bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com> |
Hey Barry, I'm the 560 you mentioned in your email. The problems do exist and you
will have a problem with your 680. I'm also the dealer in Michigan. As of
this date they do not have an effective 6 seat system using one controller. They
would have to sell you two systems. As to doing your plane my advise is to
wait a while and see if the program problems can be corrected.
Barry Hancock
Hi gang,
There's a new company out that is doing ANR cabins. Looks like an
awesome idea.... http://www.quietflight-llc.com/
I spoke with the guy this morning...very professional. He said a 4
place system runs about $7K.
My big question is this. He had problems doing a 560 because of the
huge number of noise spikes due to the geared motors, firing sequence,
props, etc. Am I correct in assuming that I would have the same issues
in the 680E? I know some of you techies out there might be able to
help....
Thanks in advance for your input!
BTW, flew 680E up to Morris' new place the other day. I'm looking
forward to getting the annual/100 hr./sqwaks done, AND it looks like I
have some interest in a partnership....gulp....again. However, I'm much
more comfortable entering a partnership again after receiving my Masters
in Airplane Partnerships for the P.O. School of Deception and Dishonesty.
Cheers,
Barry
Buddy Windham, President
Cycon Enterprises, Inc.
General Contractors/Construction Management/Design Build Services
0-608 Quincy Street S.W.
Grandville, Michigan 49418
616 896-6488 office
616 896-6490 fax
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Buddy Windham <bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com> |
Pat, the system will work in a 500 series, non geared motors, but only in a four
seat configuration.There are problems(programing) doing a 6 seat, single controller
unit.
Patrick Nickles wrote:--> Commander-List message posted
by: "Patrick Nickles"
Hi Barry -
I had QuietFlight installed in my single-engine Commander last summer
and it was money well spent. I don't know how well it would work in the
different Twin Commander models, but in my baby Commander it works as
advertised. The cockpit IS more quiet, BUT I believe the most important
factor is the vibration reduction which significantly lowers overall
pilot fatigue.
(I emailed him after buying the system and he posted my comments on his
website. No, I don't have any ownership interest in the product - I
just know that I plan to have the system installed in any future
aircraft I might own (i.e. hopefully a Twin Commander in the near
future.))
Patrick
Buddy Windham, President
Cycon Enterprises, Inc.
General Contractors/Construction Management/Design Build Services
0-608 Quincy Street S.W.
Grandville, Michigan 49418
616 896-6488 office
616 896-6490 fax
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
I must have missed the announcement, when and where will this even be held?
KJ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Subject: Commander-List: TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY
HI KIDS.
I was just wondering if anybody is going to Scottsdale??
Barry Colman and I will be there (Weather permitting for me). Moe, will you
make it this year?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
In a message dated 3/23/03 10:31:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kerry(at)kvelectric.com writes:
> com>
>
> I must have missed the announcement, when and where will this even be held?
Scottsdale AZ, the 27 -29th. John Bosch (Commander Aero), Barry Collman and
myself will be there. I havent heard from anybody else. Last time, Moe
Mills, Andrew Foss, Dan Domingues, Chris Wall, Morris Kernick, John Vormbaum
and a couple of other members made it, but this has been a tough year for
many of us so??
Hope you can make it. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
In a message dated 03/23/03 15:07:05 Pacific Standard Time, YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
writes:
> Scottsdale AZ, the 27 -29th. John Bosch (Commander Aero), Barry Collman and
>
> myself will be there. I havent heard from anybody else. Last time, Moe
> Mills, Andrew Foss, Dan Domingues, Chris Wall, Morris Kernick, John
> Vormbaum
> and a couple of other members made it
I'm in re-current training on those dates. (and more)
Wish I could be there, and no, I can't get out of it to go fool around in
Scottsdale.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
Gents:
Linn and I will be arriving Wednesday night, regrettably, by car.
Look foreword to seeing you there, as this is always a most enjoyable event.
Best regards,
Moe
4680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:03:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
> Wish I could be there, and no, I can't get out of it to go fool around in
> Scottsdale.
>
Oh well, I know you will make the TCFG flyin in Sept, Right!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: TWIN COMMANDER UNIVERSITY |
In a message dated 3/24/2003 6:53:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
MOEMILLS(at)aol.com writes:
> Linn and I will be arriving Wednesday night, regrettably, by car
Great!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Guys,
Thanks for all the feedback. Looks like they need a little more
refinement to properly/efficiently do a Commander. It is a great idea
who's time has most certainly come. I look forward to having it in my
aircraft someday...but perhaps not tomorrow.
Cheers,
B
On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
wrote:
>
> Pat, the system will work in a 500 series, non geared motors, but only
> in a four
> seat configuration.There are problems(programing) doing a 6 seat,
> single controller
> unit.
Barry Hancock
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Feedback
>
> Guys,
>
> Thanks for all the feedback. Looks like they need a little more
> refinement to properly/efficiently do a Commander. It is a great idea
> who's time has most certainly come. I look forward to having it in my
> aircraft someday...but perhaps not tomorrow.
>
> Cheers,
> B
> On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Pat, the system will work in a 500 series, non geared motors, but only
> > in a four
> > seat configuration.There are problems(programing) doing a 6 seat,
> > single controller
> > unit.
> Barry Hancock
> Red Stars, Inc.
> 949.300.5510
> www.allredstar.com
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
no
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bow
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Feedback
Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
To:
Subject: Commander-List: Feedback
>
> Guys,
>
> Thanks for all the feedback. Looks like they need a little more
> refinement to properly/efficiently do a Commander. It is a great idea
> who's time has most certainly come. I look forward to having it in my
> aircraft someday...but perhaps not tomorrow.
>
> Cheers,
> B
> On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Pat, the system will work in a 500 series, non geared motors, but only
> > in a four
> > seat configuration.There are problems(programing) doing a 6 seat,
> > single controller
> > unit.
> Barry Hancock
> Red Stars, Inc.
> 949.300.5510
> www.allredstar.com
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com> |
None come to mind.
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Feedback
>
> Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: Feedback
>
>
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > Thanks for all the feedback. Looks like they need a little more
> > refinement to properly/efficiently do a Commander. It is a great idea
> > who's time has most certainly come. I look forward to having it in my
> > aircraft someday...but perhaps not tomorrow.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > B
> > On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Pat, the system will work in a 500 series, non geared motors, but only
> > > in a four
> > > seat configuration.There are problems(programing) doing a 6 seat,
> > > single controller
> > > unit.
> > Barry Hancock
> > Red Stars, Inc.
> > 949.300.5510
> > www.allredstar.com
> > "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Oooo though crowd.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Feedback
>
> no
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Bow
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 5:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Feedback
>
>
>
> Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: Feedback
>
>
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > Thanks for all the feedback. Looks like they need a little more
> > refinement to properly/efficiently do a Commander. It is a great idea
> > who's time has most certainly come. I look forward to having it in my
> > aircraft someday...but perhaps not tomorrow.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > B
> > On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Pat, the system will work in a 500 series, non geared motors, but
only
> > > in a four
> > > seat configuration.There are problems(programing) doing a 6 seat,
> > > single controller
> > > unit.
> > Barry Hancock
> > Red Stars, Inc.
> > 949.300.5510
> > www.allredstar.com
> > "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Is your e-mail service working now?????? Milt?
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Feedback
>
> None come to mind.
> Milt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Feedback
>
>
> >
> > Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
> >
> > bilbo
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Commander-List: Feedback
> >
> >
>
> > >
> > > Guys,
> > >
> > > Thanks for all the feedback. Looks like they need a little more
> > > refinement to properly/efficiently do a Commander. It is a great idea
> > > who's time has most certainly come. I look forward to having it in my
> > > aircraft someday...but perhaps not tomorrow.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > B
> > > On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Pat, the system will work in a 500 series, non geared motors, but
only
> > > > in a four
> > > > seat configuration.There are problems(programing) doing a 6 seat,
> > > > single controller
> > > > unit.
> > > Barry Hancock
> > > Red Stars, Inc.
> > > 949.300.5510
> > > www.allredstar.com
> > > "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
"'Bob Redfern'" , "'Brent Hall'" ,
"'Brett Johnson'" , "'Brett Okland'" ,
"'Bruce Belmont'" ,
"'Bryce Gibby'" <bryce-gibby@boman-kemp.com>,
"'Commander Chat'" ,
"'Curtis Jensen'" ,
"'Dan Barrus'" ,
"'Jeremy Johnson'" , "'Joel Sessions'" ,
"'John Jackson'" ,
"'Lewis Reece'" , "'Lon Wardrop'" ,
"'Mel Teeples'" , "'Mike Suddreth'" ,
"'Mitch McCuistion'" ,
"'Nathan Ricks'" ,
"'Stephan Drury'" ,
"'Steve Hayden'"
| Subject: | Female language translation |
OK Guys, listen up. Here is a translation of some of that mystifying female
language we must deal with. I hope it's helpful to you.
FINE
This is the word women use to end an argument when they feel they
are right and you need to shut up. Never use "fine" to describe how a woman
looks -- this will cause you to have one of those arguments.
FIVE MINUTES
This is half an hour. It is equivalent to the five minutes that your
football game is going to last before you take out the trash, so it's an
even trade.
NOTHING
This means "something," and you should be on your toes. "Nothing"
is usually used to describe the feeling a woman has of wanting to turn you
inside out, upside down, and backwards. 'Nothing" usually signifies an
argument that will last "Five Minutes" and end with 'Fine'
GO AHEAD (With Raised Eyebrows)
This is a dare. One that will result in a woman getting upset over
"Nothing" and will end with the word "Fine"
GO AHEAD or WHATEVER (Normal Eyebrows)
This means "I give up" or "do what you want because I don't care"
You will get a "Raised Eyebrow Go Ahead" in just a few minutes,
followed by "Nothing" and "Fine" and she will talk to you in about "Five
Minutes" when she cools off.
LOUD SIGH
This is not actually a word, but is a nonverbal statement often
misunderstood by men. A "Loud Sigh" means she thinks you are an idiot at
that moment, and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and
arguing with you over "Nothing" .
SOFT SIGH
Again, not a word, but a nonverbal statement. "Soft Sighs" mean that she is
content. Your best bet is to not move or breathe, and she will stay content.
THAT'S OKAY
This is one of the most dangerous statements that a woman can make to a man.
"That's Okay" means that she wants to think long and hard before paying you
back for whatever it is that you have done. "That's Okay" is often used with
the word "Fine" and in conjunction with a "Raised Eyebrow.
GO AHEAD.
At some point in the near future, you are going to be in some
mighty big trouble.
PLEASE DO
This is not a statement, it is an offer. A woman is giving you the
chance to come up with whatever excuse or reason you have for doing whatever
it is that you have done. You have a fair chance with the truth, so be
careful and you shouldn't get a "That's Okay" .
THANKS
A woman is thanking you. Do not faint. Just say you're welcome.
THANKS A LOT
This is much different from "Thanks." A woman will say, "Thanks A
Lot" when she is really ticked off at you. It signifies that you have
offended her in some callous way, and will be followed by the "Loud
Sigh." Be careful not to ask what is wrong after the "Loud Sigh," as she
will only tell you "Nothing" .
Send this to the men you know to warn them about future arguments
they can avoid if they remember the terminology. And send it to your women
friends to give them a good laugh!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fwd: Aerocomander 500S Lease |
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:20:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Johnson <richjohnsonlaw(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Aerocomander 500S Lease
--0-1984134858-1048638030=:64886
To whom it may concern:
My name is Richard Johnson and I represent a Part 135 operator who is interested
in leasing three Aerocomander 500s's for a period of approximately 90-120 days
on an exclusive use 135 operation.
Although your web site did not address lease possibilities, would your group consider
or do you know others who may consider leasing three Areocommander 500S's
to a reputable 135 operator for a period not to exceed 120 days?
I would appreciate any helpful information you may have to offer.
I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you.
Rich
---------------------------------
--0-1984134858-1048638030=:64886
To whom it may concern:
My name is Richard Johnson and I represent a Part 135 operator who is interested
in leasing three Aerocomander 500s's for a period of approximately 90-120 days
on an exclusive use 135 operation.
Although your web site did not address lease possibilities, would your group consider
or do you know others who may consider leasing three Areocommander 500S's
to a reputable 135 operator for a period not to exceed 120 days?
I would appreciate any helpful information you may have to offer.
I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you.
Rich
--0-1984134858-1048638030=:64886--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Aerocomander 500S Lease |
Hmmm,
I'm sure someone has 2 or 3 Shrikes laying around that just happen to be
Part 135-ready?
LOL.....
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Fwd: Aerocomander 500S Lease
>
>
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:20:30 -0800 (PST)
> From: Richard Johnson <richjohnsonlaw(at)yahoo.com>
> Subject: Aerocomander 500S Lease
> To: YourTCFG(at)aol.com
>
>
> --0-1984134858-1048638030=:64886
>
>
> To whom it may concern:
>
> My name is Richard Johnson and I represent a Part 135 operator who is
interested in leasing three Aerocomander 500s's for a period of
approximately 90-120 days on an exclusive use 135 operation.
>
> Although your web site did not address lease possibilities, would your
group consider or do you know others who may consider leasing three
Areocommander 500S's to a reputable 135 operator for a period not to exceed
120 days?
>
> I would appreciate any helpful information you may have to offer.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you.
>
> Rich
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> --0-1984134858-1048638030=:64886
>
>
> To whom it may concern:
>
>
> My name is Richard Johnson and I represent a Part 135 operator who is
interested in leasing three Aerocomander 500s's for a period of
approximately 90-120 days on an exclusive use 135 operation.
>
>
> Although your web site did not address lease possibilities, would your
group consider or do you know others who may consider leasing three
Areocommander 500S's to a reputable 135 operator for a period not to exceed
120 days?
>
>
> I would appreciate any helpful information you may have to offer.
>
>
> I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you.
>
>
> Rich
>
>
> --0-1984134858-1048638030=:64886--
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd:Colin Powell Quote |
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Suzanne Hancock , handb(at)pacbell.net,
Hal Morley , Doug Sapp ,
Buck Bender ,
Ken Wilhelm <Ken.Wilhelm@lsa-assoc.com>,
Jamil and Penny Atcha ,
Rudy Shepard , David Snow ,
Jeff Linebaugh ,
Jim Goolsby , commander-list(at)matronics.com,
Kevin Cooksy , Dave Hansen
> Powell Quote
>
> When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by
> the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example
> of
> empire building by George Bush.
>
> He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has sent
> many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for
> freedom
> beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in
> return
> is enough to bury those that did not return."
>
> It became very quiet in the room.
>
>
> From: Pamela Salisbury <psq(at)sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:16:47 PM US/Pacific
> To: Steven Collins , Skip Slyfield
> , "Capt. Bill Knetsch" , Van Brinson
> , AJ Ward , Fred
> Lewis , Len Kaine
> Subject: FW: Colin Powell Quote
>
>
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: "Ward, Robert D LCDR (ACU1)" <Ward.Robert(at)ACU1.navy.mil>
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:04:09 -0800
> To: "Pamela Salisbury (E-mail)" , "Elizabeth Stafford
> (E-mail)" , "Lynn Adamson (E-mail)"
>
> Subject: Colin Powell Quote
>
> Powell Quote
>
> When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by
> the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example
> of
> empire building by George Bush.
>
> He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has sent
> many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for
> freedom
> beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in
> return
> is enough to bury those that did not return."
>
> It became very quiet in the room.
>
>
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>
>
Barry Hancock
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 3/25/2003 2:55:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
>
> bilbo
>
Nope, Sorry Bilbo!!!! You were already slower, took more runway, climbed
less, used the same fuel, and had less single engine performance. Therefore
paying someone thousands to make your airplane even more quiet would make it
even slower, take even more runway, climb even less, use more fuel, and
etc.......
Sorry but since nobody has said the word "SUMP!!" lately I thought I would
stir things up a bit. When was the last time somebody bought a Commander
because it was Quiet anyway!!! Get some ANR headsets, and spend the rest on
AVGAS!!!!!!!!
Jet(Been morning the sell of my Commander, but back to my old self)Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jody and Susan Pillatzki" <jpillatzki(at)702com.net> |
Don't worry Jetpaul. The new owner has been flying the wings off of 1VV.
What a glorious sound. If you guys really want to know my opinion on geared
engines the only thing I can do is take a picture of the silly grin I get
every time I fly. A doctor friend of mine who has been a 310 man is now
seeing the error of his ways after 20 minutes in my GEARED commander.
Shorter takeoff, better cruise, and that lovely sound. If you want something
quiet buy something that burns Kerosene.
Jody
P.S. can anyone tell me why I am not a member yet. Filled out the membership
form twice and no reply or evidence of being a member.
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Feedback
>
> In a message dated 3/25/2003 2:55:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
> >
> > bilbo
> >
>
> Nope, Sorry Bilbo!!!! You were already slower, took more runway, climbed
> less, used the same fuel, and had less single engine performance.
Therefore
> paying someone thousands to make your airplane even more quiet would make
it
> even slower, take even more runway, climb even less, use more fuel, and
> etc.......
>
> Sorry but since nobody has said the word "SUMP!!" lately I thought I would
> stir things up a bit. When was the last time somebody bought a Commander
> because it was Quiet anyway!!! Get some ANR headsets, and spend the rest
on
> AVGAS!!!!!!!!
>
> Jet(Been morning the sell of my Commander, but back to my old self)Paul
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
Whoa! Wait 'till you have to PAY for those ggggggggears! Your bird's OK Bilbo!
Steve C.
_______________________________________________
In a message dated 3/25/2003 2:55:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
>
> bilbo
>
Nope, Sorry Bilbo!!!! You were already slower, took more runway, climbed
less, used the same fuel, and had less single engine performance. Therefore
paying someone thousands to make your airplane even more quiet would make it
even slower, take even more runway, climb even less, use more fuel, and
etc.......
Sorry but since nobody has said the word "SUMP!!" lately I thought I would
stir things up a bit. When was the last time somebody bought a Commander
because it was Quiet anyway!!! Get some ANR headsets, and spend the rest on
AVGAS!!!!!!!!
Jet(Been morning the sell of my Commander, but back to my old self)Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 3/26/2003 6:28:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jpillatzki(at)702com.net writes:
> P.S. can anyone tell me why I am not a member yet. Filled out the membership
> form twice and no reply or evidence of being a member.
Hi Jodi. I sent an application?? Lets try again. Sorry. Jim Metzger,
Director, Twin Commander Flight Group.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
Barry Collman arrived yesterday and we spent today goofing off.
I had planed to install the repalcement #2 exhaust pipe, but it didn't arrive
#!~&
@$.
We will leave tomorrow early afternoon for Scottsdale. It should take
a little under 5 hours in triple 2. We will plan on 11.5 2550 X32 @ 33 gph
= 175kts.
The weather looks OK, so it should e a nice ride. I will give you a
"blow by blow" of the gathering at the end of each day. Hope all is well in
your Commanderland.
Geeeeaaared Motor jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Capt. Jimbob,
Godspeed and get there safe!!!
I wish I could make Scottsdale.....but you never know, weather permitting, I
just might show up to make some trouble!!!!
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Commander U
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> Barry Collman arrived yesterday and we spent today goofing
off.
> I had planed to install the repalcement #2 exhaust pipe, but it didn't
arrive
> #!~&
> @$.
> We will leave tomorrow early afternoon for Scottsdale. It should
take
> a little under 5 hours in triple 2. We will plan on 11.5 2550 X32 @ 33
gph
> = 175kts.
> The weather looks OK, so it should e a nice ride. I will give you
a
> "blow by blow" of the gathering at the end of each day. Hope all is well
in
> your Commanderland.
>
> Geeeeaaared Motor jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Milt,Your mail is screwed up again/still.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
THANKS, Stephen, I was beginning to feel a little lonesome out here. I am
reminded of how outdated my engines are every time I hear about all the new
geared engines coming out of Continental and Lycoming.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Feedback
>
>
> Whoa! Wait 'till you have to PAY for those ggggggggears! Your bird's OK
Bilbo! Steve C.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> In a message dated 3/25/2003 2:55:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
> >
> > bilbo
> >
>
> Nope, Sorry Bilbo!!!! You were already slower, took more runway,
climbed
> less, used the same fuel, and had less single engine performance.
Therefore
> paying someone thousands to make your airplane even more quiet would
make it
> even slower, take even more runway, climb even less, use more fuel, and
> etc.......
>
> Sorry but since nobody has said the word "SUMP!!" lately I thought I
would
> stir things up a bit. When was the last time somebody bought a
Commander
> because it was Quiet anyway!!! Get some ANR headsets, and spend the
rest on
> AVGAS!!!!!!!!
>
> Jet(Been morning the sell of my Commander, but back to my old self)Paul
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
I've left the commander stage, but I'll be back! (sans gears of course) I have
2000hr. TBO and no gears for now. Stephen C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bow
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Feedback
THANKS, Stephen, I was beginning to feel a little lonesome out here. I am
reminded of how outdated my engines are every time I hear about all the new
geared engines coming out of Continental and Lycoming.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Feedback
>
>
> Whoa! Wait 'till you have to PAY for those ggggggggears! Your bird's OK
Bilbo! Steve C.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> In a message dated 3/25/2003 2:55:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
> >
> > bilbo
> >
>
> Nope, Sorry Bilbo!!!! You were already slower, took more runway,
climbed
> less, used the same fuel, and had less single engine performance.
Therefore
> paying someone thousands to make your airplane even more quiet would
make it
> even slower, take even more runway, climb even less, use more fuel, and
> etc.......
>
> Sorry but since nobody has said the word "SUMP!!" lately I thought I
would
> stir things up a bit. When was the last time somebody bought a
Commander
> because it was Quiet anyway!!! Get some ANR headsets, and spend the
rest on
> AVGAS!!!!!!!!
>
> Jet(Been morning the sell of my Commander, but back to my old self)Paul
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
On Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
wrote:
> A doctor friend of mine who has been a 310 man is now
> seeing the error of his ways after 20 minutes in my GEARED commander.
He must have an early model 310, because as much as I love Commanders,
they cannot keep up with the higher performance 310's in cruise.
> Shorter takeoff, better cruise, and that lovely sound. If you want
> something
> quiet buy something that burns Kerosene.
> Jody
Not just "something", buy a Turbo Commander! :) Actually, have you
guys (and gals) taken a gander at the Lancair PropJet? Yikes! 340kt
cruise on 45 gph, 4000 fpm through 20K, and a 36:1 glide ratio of the
thing quits! Those are not marketing numbers, those are real numbers.
Talk about swift and efficient personal transportation.
"We now return you to your regularly
scheduled programming"
Barry Hancock
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gears and Such |
In a message dated 3/27/2003 2:55:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Whoa! Wait 'till you have to PAY for those ggggggggears! Your bird's OK
> Bilbo!
> Steve C.
>
Jody is the proud new owner of 411V V. Although you have a point in the
price of gears, I think Jody is still trying to wipe the grin off his face.
I kept trying to tell ya'll that our 520 was for sale, AND IT CAME WITH 3
SPARE ENGINES, 1 of which is a part 135 TBO runout, but it's complete QEC
(Quick Engine Change), right down to the engine cradle, Lord mounts, Mags,
Wiring Harness, Plugs, etc. With the cowl already off you could trade
engines in an afternoon.
So let's recap here, 1 520 Commander, 3 spare engines, 2 spare carbs, NEW
JANITROL, New panel, New interior, Shrike seats, etc., etc. Price?
Priceless.
Or read less than half of any other non geared won't climb on one engine at
gross weight NON-COMMANDER (310, B-55,Aztruck, etc.)
Gears??? Jody's got em times 5.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
Bilbo ; Send me a valid E/M address. Steve C. k4cpx(at)arrl.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jody and Susan Pillatzki" <jpillatzki(at)702com.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Gears and Such |
Can I get a YEAH BABY!!!!.
Jody(Still Grinning)Pillatzki
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Gears and Such
>
> In a message dated 3/27/2003 2:55:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > Whoa! Wait 'till you have to PAY for those ggggggggears! Your bird's OK
> > Bilbo!
> > Steve C.
> >
>
> Jody is the proud new owner of 411V V. Although you have a point in the
> price of gears, I think Jody is still trying to wipe the grin off his
face.
> I kept trying to tell ya'll that our 520 was for sale, AND IT CAME WITH 3
> SPARE ENGINES, 1 of which is a part 135 TBO runout, but it's complete QEC
> (Quick Engine Change), right down to the engine cradle, Lord mounts, Mags,
> Wiring Harness, Plugs, etc. With the cowl already off you could trade
> engines in an afternoon.
>
> So let's recap here, 1 520 Commander, 3 spare engines, 2 spare carbs, NEW
> JANITROL, New panel, New interior, Shrike seats, etc., etc. Price?
> Priceless.
>
> Or read less than half of any other non geared won't climb on one engine
at
> gross weight NON-COMMANDER (310, B-55,Aztruck, etc.)
>
> Gears??? Jody's got em times 5.
>
> JetPaul
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
Barry C and I arrived today in trusty old triple 2. Had a minor
(OK, not so minor) exhaust problem but worked it out (long story).
We were gear up at 11;15 and touched down 4+30 later in SDL. Spent
most of the time at 14.5 with great tail winds. Was able to maintain 31
inches at 14. 2600 netted 165kts indicated.
We landed and taxied in and were the only "bathtub" Commander there
(no surprise) We had no sooner commented that there would probably not be any
others that and drop dead gorgeous 680E can taxing in from Guatemala!!!! The
airplane is owned by the guy who bought it new in 1960!!! He sold it after
15 years, then bought it back and completely restored it, repainting and
upholstering it just as it was in 1960. It now has clevelands, a garman 530
etc, but is otherwise stock. Only 2800TT!!!! (He spent as much to OH the
engines as he paid for the airplane new!!)
What a wonderful site. There are about 25 other Commanders, all
turbines except one 500S from Canada. We had a reception tonight and I had
dinner with John Bosch and Gary Kromer from Commander Aero. We had a great
planing meeting on the flyin in Sept. John has done a wonderful job of
planing what will be the best TCFG gathering ever!! Everybody needs to plan
on attending.
Got to go. Will write more tomorrow. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John D Williams" <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net> |
Bill,
You know everything has to do with liability issues. Think about it. If
Continental and Lycoming were to put those outstanding geared engines back
into full production then they could be subject to suite from all you owners
of those "brand X" engines for being deprived all these years!
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Feedback
>
> THANKS, Stephen, I was beginning to feel a little lonesome out here. I am
> reminded of how outdated my engines are every time I hear about all the
new
> geared engines coming out of Continental and Lycoming.
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Feedback
>
>
> >
> >
> > Whoa! Wait 'till you have to PAY for those ggggggggears! Your bird's
OK
> Bilbo! Steve C.
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/25/2003 2:55:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> >
> > > Could there possibly be an advantage to NOT HAVING GEARS???????? :>)
> > >
> > > bilbo
> > >
> >
> > Nope, Sorry Bilbo!!!! You were already slower, took more runway,
> climbed
> > less, used the same fuel, and had less single engine performance.
> Therefore
> > paying someone thousands to make your airplane even more quiet would
> make it
> > even slower, take even more runway, climb even less, use more fuel,
and
> > etc.......
> >
> > Sorry but since nobody has said the word "SUMP!!" lately I thought I
> would
> > stir things up a bit. When was the last time somebody bought a
> Commander
> > because it was Quiet anyway!!! Get some ANR headsets, and spend the
> rest on
> > AVGAS!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Jet(Been morning the sell of my Commander, but back to my old
self)Paul
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John D Williams" <keyscrusing(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Sun-n-Fun Fly in |
Morning All,
My wife and I will be leaving out on Sunday for the Sun-n-Fun airshow in Lakeland.
We'll be up there all week in our RV. Is anyone else planning on going? Love
to meet up while your there. There's also an extra bed if anyone needs it.
Give me a call on my cell (305) 731-0114. Hope to see some of you there
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Sun-n-Fun Fly in, I'll be there |
SUN N FUN
I'll be arriving Saturday 4/5 around 10:15am in the AC 500A Colemill,
N811D.
I look forward to seeing Bob Hoover again, and everyone else in
Commanderland.
Everyone fly safe,
www.flysafeinsurance,.com
Gary Tillman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Howard Windham" <bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Sun-n-Fun Fly in, I'll be there |
Gary, I'll look you up. I'm not flying into lakeland but into
winterhaven.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TILLMAN333(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Sun-n-Fun Fly in, I'll be there
SUN N FUN
I'll be arriving Saturday 4/5 around 10:15am in the AC 500A Colemill,
N811D.
I look forward to seeing Bob Hoover again, and everyone else in
Commanderland.
Everyone fly safe,
www.flysafeinsurance,.com
Gary Tillman
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: ANTS @ SUN N FUN |
Quick Note,
If you park on the Grass at Sun N Fun...
BECAREFUL....Stay away from the ANT beds.
For you "Yankees" the ant beds appear to be a mound of sand...
Do tell...you will bog up and the plane will STOP.
It happened to me last year.
Gary T.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
It was an informative day in Scottsdale. I attended a great
turbine session. Barry is mingling and filling in some blanks in Commander
history.
TCFG members Moe and Lynn Mill drove over. Bob and Sonny Murdock also
made it. Wayne Brudiger is here as is John Bosch and Gary Kromer.
I have signed up a couple of new members, a 690B, 500S and 680F(P).
Hope all is well. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com> |
> Jody
> P.S. can anyone tell me why I am not a member yet. Filled out the
membership
> form twice and no reply or evidence of being a member.
Jody,
You do not become an official member until the next meeting. At that time
you will be required to chug a quart of whisky. Dance naked on a table and
mud wrestle naked with big AL.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COMMANDER560(at)cs.com |
Milt, why are you letting Jody off so light. Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jody and Susan Pillatzki" <jpillatzki(at)702com.net> |
I thought it was going to be tough. I do that kind of thing before church.
Where is the next meeting. I may have to come down and see if you guys can
hang with the big dogs.
Jody
----- Original Message -----
From: "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Feedback
>
>
> > Jody
> > P.S. can anyone tell me why I am not a member yet. Filled out the
> membership
> > form twice and no reply or evidence of being a member.
>
> Jody,
> You do not become an official member until the next meeting. At that time
> you will be required to chug a quart of whisky. Dance naked on a table and
> mud wrestle naked with big AL.
>
> Milt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd:Colin Powell Quote |
Contrary to what some of my fellow countrymen may feel, this Canadian is
somewhat embarrassed that we cannot help our neighbour when the world needs
it most...
To our brothers and sisters south of us, I recognise that my views are not
the same as my government's views, but please note that my government's
views do not represent all of the Canadian people's views, either!
Regards,
Andrew Watson.
----- Original Message -----
>
> > Powell Quote
> >
> > When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by
> > the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example
> > of
> > empire building by George Bush.
> >
> > He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has sent
> > many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for
> > freedom
> > beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in
> > return
> > is enough to bury those that did not return."
> >
> > It became very quiet in the room.
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au |
| Subject: | Interesting item on eBay Australia web site item#2408797208: |
Aero Commander 500-B control surfaces
I saw this item for sale at eBayMotors, The World's Online Marketplace TM, and
thought that you might be interested.
Title of item: Aero Commander 500-B control surfaces
Seller: rgvi
Starts: 26-Mar-03 02:06:17 AEST
Ends: 02-Apr-03 02:06:17 AEST
Price: Starts at US $300.00
To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2408797208
Item Description:
These are all of the control surfaces less the rudder for an Aerio commander
Model 500-B serial number 1346130. The parts are all in good condition with
no warpage or dents. They have been in dry storage for about 15 years.
Visit eBay, The World's Online Marketplace TM at http://www.ebay.com.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
The last day of the University was great. The seminars this
year were all excellent. Flight Safety put on a wonderful turbine engine
session. Mike Grabbe also headed up a "What your piston commander is telling
you" Kerry from Byrley Aviation, John Bosch, and Gary Kromer from Commander
Aero and several others were in attendance. It was a great time and lasted
so long that Jeff Cousins had to arrange for us to have the room longer!!
(Thanks Jeff)
Barry Collman and I (and several others) spent time at the airport
watching all the departures, it was great to se all those Commanders blasting
out.
John Bosch and I spent about an hour with Jetty Hill from Flight
Safety discussing piston commander training. Here is where we are. They are
seriously Considering putting together a 10 - 15hr ground school based on
their turbine school, that would cover all the piston systems. That would be
coupled with a 5 -8-hr "generic" instrument refresher in a ME training
device. We even talked about configuring it with a Commander yoke, gear
handle etc. There would still be no actual "dual" in a real airplane, but we
are working on that as well.
I asked Hal Williams from Nation air, the TCAC chosen Commander
insurance broker, what difference this might make and he said without
hesitation "night & day" (what do you thank Gary Tillman)??
It was a great gathering and time well spent. Barry and I flew home
yesterday in triple 2, 31 X 2600 @ 12.5 + 162kts,ias, 182 kts over the
ground. Flew the 1000sm in 4+55 (Barry said it was 5.0, but you cant trust
those Brits). There was not a cloud or bump in the sky for the entire 1000
miles!!
I hope all is well on you Commanderland. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ricardo A. Otaola" <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve> |
Hi there:
I believe it Randy that has a 680F like myself. I wanted to know where I
can get some pipes, as I noticed that my right engine outer pipe has opened
apart. Anyone know where I can fix it or buy another????
Also I am looking for the gears for the cowl flaps. I believe they are
made out of plastic.
Thanks
Ricardo Otaola
AC-680F
YV-10P
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust pipes |
Hello Ricardo,
The first place I ALWAYS go is to Morris Kernick of Commander Services in
Stockton, CA His phone number is 321 403 8813. If he can't point you in
the right direction, he can point you to someone who can.
Good luck,
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo A. Otaola" <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve>
Subject: Commander-List: exhaust pipes
>
> Hi there:
>
> I believe it Randy that has a 680F like myself. I wanted to know where
I
> can get some pipes, as I noticed that my right engine outer pipe has
opened
> apart. Anyone know where I can fix it or buy another????
>
> Also I am looking for the gears for the cowl flaps. I believe they are
> made out of plastic.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ricardo Otaola
> AC-680F
> YV-10P
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust pipes |
In a message dated 3/31/2003 4:12:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
otayca(at)telcel.net.ve writes:
> I believe it Randy that has a 680F like myself. I wanted to know where I
> can get some pipes, as I noticed that my right engine outer pipe has opened
> apart. Anyone know where I can fix it or buy another????
Always call Morris first, then try Commander Aero, Gary Kromer 937-885-5580.
If he cant help, let me know. I know where there is (was) a really nice set
of pipes for your engine. I will need to dig around, but I think I can still
find the guy. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust pipes |
If Morris can't help, you may wish to contact
Dawley Aviation, Inc.
140 Industrial Drive
Burlington, WI 53105
Phone 800.338.5420
Fax 414.763.3735
dawley98(at)aol.com
I have delt with these guys for several years, and have always received
excellent quality, good service, and a fair price.
Moe Mills
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
Have you all heard what happened last night?!?!? The not-so-honorable
Mayor Daley sent a crew out at 1:30am with no notice and plowed up the
runway at Meigs!!!! I am dumbfounded, shocked, horrified, and just
sick. Details at:
http://www.aopa.org
or
http://www.aero-news.net
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
WTF????? Isn't that ILLEGAL???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
>
> Have you all heard what happened last night?!?!? The not-so-honorable
> Mayor Daley sent a crew out at 1:30am with no notice and plowed up the
> runway at Meigs!!!! I am dumbfounded, shocked, horrified, and just
> sick. Details at:
> http://www.aopa.org
> or
> http://www.aero-news.net
>
> chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNulty" <JMcNulty(at)socalpizza.com> |
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PT0NCgkNCgkNCgkNCgkNCgkNCg0K
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
I'm not a current pilot, and have never flown in North America, but when I
flew in Zimbabwe and in South Africa, only a commercial pilot could take off
from a field that was not recognised as a runway, as in the case of a forced
landing.
Now, I noticed that there are a number of aircraft on the ground at Meigs;
to get them out of there they would have to take off on the taxiway... is
this technically legal? I mean to take off on a taxiway? Would a Commercial
Pilot have to do the takeoff? If so, would the City of Chicago foot the bill
for the Commercial Pilots to do the takeoff?
As you can see I'm not a lawyer, either...
Sorry about what has happened to your field.
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
>
> WTF????? Isn't that ILLEGAL???
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
>
>
> >
> > Have you all heard what happened last night?!?!? The not-so-honorable
> > Mayor Daley sent a crew out at 1:30am with no notice and plowed up the
> > runway at Meigs!!!! I am dumbfounded, shocked, horrified, and just
> > sick. Details at:
> > http://www.aopa.org
> > or
> > http://www.aero-news.net
> >
> > chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Some folks say it's an April's Fools joke. They got me blasting mayor Daley.
Ek's maar net 'n plaasjapie, wat verwag jy nou eintlik, huh?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
>
> I'm not a current pilot, and have never flown in North America, but when I
> flew in Zimbabwe and in South Africa, only a commercial pilot could take
off
> from a field that was not recognised as a runway, as in the case of a
forced
> landing.
>
> Now, I noticed that there are a number of aircraft on the ground at Meigs;
> to get them out of there they would have to take off on the taxiway... is
> this technically legal? I mean to take off on a taxiway? Would a
Commercial
> Pilot have to do the takeoff? If so, would the City of Chicago foot the
bill
> for the Commercial Pilots to do the takeoff?
>
> As you can see I'm not a lawyer, either...
>
> Sorry about what has happened to your field.
>
> Andrew.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
>
>
> >
> > WTF????? Isn't that ILLEGAL???
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
> >
> >
>
> > >
> > > Have you all heard what happened last night?!?!? The not-so-honorable
> > > Mayor Daley sent a crew out at 1:30am with no notice and plowed up the
> > > runway at Meigs!!!! I am dumbfounded, shocked, horrified, and just
> > > sick. Details at:
> > > http://www.aopa.org
> > > or
> > > http://www.aero-news.net
> > >
> > > chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Martini Luc J.R." <martini(at)foxinternet.net> |
En Ie kan nog altijd Hollands praaten ook!
Luc Martini
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
>
> Some folks say it's an April's Fools joke. They got me blasting mayor
Daley.
>
> Ek's maar net 'n plaasjapie, wat verwag jy nou eintlik, huh?
>
> Nico
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm not a current pilot, and have never flown in North America, but when
I
> > flew in Zimbabwe and in South Africa, only a commercial pilot could take
> off
> > from a field that was not recognised as a runway, as in the case of a
> forced
> > landing.
> >
> > Now, I noticed that there are a number of aircraft on the ground at
Meigs;
> > to get them out of there they would have to take off on the taxiway...
is
> > this technically legal? I mean to take off on a taxiway? Would a
> Commercial
> > Pilot have to do the takeoff? If so, would the City of Chicago foot the
> bill
> > for the Commercial Pilots to do the takeoff?
> >
> > As you can see I'm not a lawyer, either...
> >
> > Sorry about what has happened to your field.
> >
> > Andrew.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
> >
> >
>
> > >
> > > WTF????? Isn't that ILLEGAL???
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Have you all heard what happened last night?!?!? The
not-so-honorable
> > > > Mayor Daley sent a crew out at 1:30am with no notice and plowed up
the
> > > > runway at Meigs!!!! I am dumbfounded, shocked, horrified, and just
> > > > sick. Details at:
> > > > http://www.aopa.org
> > > > or
> > > > http://www.aero-news.net
> > > >
> > > > chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com> |
You are a sorry low life piece of shit.
Your father was a man. The best part of you must have dribbled down his leg
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust pipes |
I Have several aet of pipes for a geared 480
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: exhaust pipes
In a message dated 3/31/2003 4:12:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
otayca(at)telcel.net.ve writes:
> I believe it Randy that has a 680F like myself. I wanted to know where I
> can get some pipes, as I noticed that my right engine outer pipe has opened
> apart. Anyone know where I can fix it or buy another????
Always call Morris first, then try Commander Aero, Gary Kromer 937-885-5580.
If he cant help, let me know. I know where there is (was) a really nice set
of pipes for your engine. I will need to dig around, but I think I can still
find the guy. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Oh my lord!
>
> Some folks say it's an April's Fools joke. They got me blasting mayor
Daley.
>
Lyk vir my dit is nie 'n grappie nie, Nico.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Don't sugar coat it Milt. Tell us what you are really thinking.
bilbo:>)
----- Original Message -----
From: "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Meigs
>
> You are a sorry low life piece of shit.
> Your father was a man. The best part of you must have dribbled down his
leg
> Milt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust pipes |
How about a "like new" #2 ?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics ISP Upgrade TODAY... |
Dear Listers,
The time has finally arrived for the Internet Service Provider (ISP)
upgrade! You'll recall that I was looking into upgrading the existing SDSL
connection from 768k to 1.1M. As it turned out, the copper line wouldn't
support any speeds greater than the current 768k. In light of that news, I
just bit-the-bullet and ordered a full, commercial-grade T1
connection. The T1 connection will provide a full-duplex, high priority,
1.5Mb Internet connection which should be a substantial performance
enhancement for all of the List services!
Pacbell delivered the T1 Loop last week and it tested out fine. This past
weekend I pulled the tail circuit from the demark to the office. This
afternoon, Tuesday 4/1/03, the ISP is suppose come and install the new
router and bring up routing on a test subnet. Assuming that everything
checks out okay with the T1, new router, and routing, I will have them
swing the main Matronics subnet off the SDSL and onto the T1. In theory,
the swing could be nearly transparent to users, but that's usually not the
case... ;-)
Please expect a bit of instability in connectivity this afternoon as we
work though the transition issues. I will post a follow up message when
everything is up and running on the new T1 line.
Finally, please know that it is solely your Contributions that make these
kinds of List upgrades happen! There is no advertising budget (aka,
flashing banner ads and annoying pop up browser windows) to pay these
bills; operational support is solely from List members like you during the
yearly List Fund Raiser. If you would like to make your Contribution to
support the Lists and upgrades like this T1 connectivity enhancement,
please see the List Contribution Web Site where you can make your
Contribution with a Credit Card, PayPal, or Personal Check. You can even
get a free List Archive CDROM with a qualifying List Contribution! The URL
is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thanks again to EVERYONE that made a generous Contribution last year and
enabled this awesome upgrade to T1 service!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
Quick Question.
Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
of a Twin Commander?
I spoke with our claims adjuster this am.
It appears that the tail section separated from a 690 @ 27000 feet over
Georgia.
Columbia TN, to Titusville Florida.
Advise,
www.flysafeinsurance.com
Gary Tillman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Matronics ISP Upgrade TODAY... |
Sounds great Matt.
I have one question, why did you need the upgrade?
Were you waiting for CPU responses because it was so busy?
Were people not getting in due to traffic?
Were you getting complaints from users?
Just curious, sometimes my clients want to upgrade because it is available
not because they need it.
Not that I am suggesting that you like to be on the bleeding edge of
technology.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Matronics ISP Upgrade TODAY...
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> The time has finally arrived for the Internet Service Provider (ISP)
> upgrade! You'll recall that I was looking into upgrading the existing
SDSL
> connection from 768k to 1.1M. As it turned out, the copper line wouldn't
> support any speeds greater than the current 768k. In light of that news,
I
> just bit-the-bullet and ordered a full, commercial-grade T1
> connection. The T1 connection will provide a full-duplex, high priority,
> 1.5Mb Internet connection which should be a substantial performance
> enhancement for all of the List services!
>
> Pacbell delivered the T1 Loop last week and it tested out fine. This past
> weekend I pulled the tail circuit from the demark to the office. This
> afternoon, Tuesday 4/1/03, the ISP is suppose come and install the new
> router and bring up routing on a test subnet. Assuming that everything
> checks out okay with the T1, new router, and routing, I will have them
> swing the main Matronics subnet off the SDSL and onto the T1. In theory,
> the swing could be nearly transparent to users, but that's usually not the
> case... ;-)
>
> Please expect a bit of instability in connectivity this afternoon as we
> work though the transition issues. I will post a follow up message when
> everything is up and running on the new T1 line.
>
> Finally, please know that it is solely your Contributions that make these
> kinds of List upgrades happen! There is no advertising budget (aka,
> flashing banner ads and annoying pop up browser windows) to pay these
> bills; operational support is solely from List members like you during the
> yearly List Fund Raiser. If you would like to make your Contribution to
> support the Lists and upgrades like this T1 connectivity enhancement,
> please see the List Contribution Web Site where you can make your
> Contribution with a Credit Card, PayPal, or Personal Check. You can even
> get a free List Archive CDROM with a qualifying List Contribution! The
URL
> is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> Thanks again to EVERYONE that made a generous Contribution last year and
> enabled this awesome upgrade to T1 service!
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List Admin.
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Matronics ISP Upgrade TODAY... |
Hi Tom,
There are a couple of reasons for the upgrade. During certain times of the
day, the 768k line has been moderately saturated. Perhaps of greater
significance, however, is that the T1 line service receives a higher
routing priority than the DSL packets and latency and overall response time
should be much better. Many times this alone will give the perception of a
much better bandwidth.
Doubling the bandwidth will also improve this perception as well,
though. It is my understanding that DSL is a half-duplex protocol where as
a T1 is full-duplex. With the doubling of the native bandwidth and the
addition of full-duplex, this effectively increases the total available
bandwidth by a factor of 4.
I haven't been received any complaints from users lately about response
time, but experience would indicate that by the time users start
complaining the problem is already way too big. If reliability is of prime
importance, over-engineering is generally always the right choice. Well,
unless you're designing an airplane... ;-)
Matt
At 10:48 AM 4/1/2003 Tuesday, you wrote:
>
>
>Sounds great Matt.
>I have one question, why did you need the upgrade?
>Were you waiting for CPU responses because it was so busy?
>Were people not getting in due to traffic?
>Were you getting complaints from users?
>
>Just curious, sometimes my clients want to upgrade because it is available
>not because they need it.
>Not that I am suggesting that you like to be on the bleeding edge of
>technology.
>
>Tom F.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com>
>To:
>Subject: Commander-List: Matronics ISP Upgrade TODAY...
>
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Listers,
> >
> > The time has finally arrived for the Internet Service Provider (ISP)
> > upgrade! You'll recall that I was looking into upgrading the existing
>SDSL
> > connection from 768k to 1.1M. As it turned out, the copper line wouldn't
> > support any speeds greater than the current 768k. In light of that news,
>I
> > just bit-the-bullet and ordered a full, commercial-grade T1
> > connection. The T1 connection will provide a full-duplex, high priority,
> > 1.5Mb Internet connection which should be a substantial performance
> > enhancement for all of the List services!
> >
> > Pacbell delivered the T1 Loop last week and it tested out fine. This past
> > weekend I pulled the tail circuit from the demark to the office. This
> > afternoon, Tuesday 4/1/03, the ISP is suppose come and install the new
> > router and bring up routing on a test subnet. Assuming that everything
> > checks out okay with the T1, new router, and routing, I will have them
> > swing the main Matronics subnet off the SDSL and onto the T1. In theory,
> > the swing could be nearly transparent to users, but that's usually not the
> > case... ;-)
> >
> > Please expect a bit of instability in connectivity this afternoon as we
> > work though the transition issues. I will post a follow up message when
> > everything is up and running on the new T1 line.
> >
> > Finally, please know that it is solely your Contributions that make these
> > kinds of List upgrades happen! There is no advertising budget (aka,
> > flashing banner ads and annoying pop up browser windows) to pay these
> > bills; operational support is solely from List members like you during the
> > yearly List Fund Raiser. If you would like to make your Contribution to
> > support the Lists and upgrades like this T1 connectivity enhancement,
> > please see the List Contribution Web Site where you can make your
> > Contribution with a Credit Card, PayPal, or Personal Check. You can even
> > get a free List Archive CDROM with a qualifying List Contribution! The
>URL
> > is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> > Thanks again to EVERYONE that made a generous Contribution last year and
> > enabled this awesome upgrade to T1 service!
> >
> > Matt Dralle
> > Matronics Email List Admin.
> >
> >
> > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
> > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
> >
> >
>
>
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
There's three sides to every story, babe. There's your's;
there's mine; and there's the cold, hard truth...
Don Henley
Long Way Home, 1982
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HELP ME OUT HERE MILT, BILBO, CRUNK, ETC!!!!! |
In a message dated 4/1/2003 2:54:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Some folks say it's an April's Fools joke. They got me blasting mayor Daley.
>
> Ek's maar net 'n plaasjapie, wat verwag jy nou eintlik, huh?
>
> Nico
>
Is it just me or does it also look to you guys like Nico is giving code to
the terrorists??
OH MY GOD WHO KNOWS WHAT HE JUST LAUNCHED AGAINST ME BELOVED HOMELAND. Well
Milt, you disavowed him as a real person. I guess you were right. Can we
Trust Bilbo with us when we head west in the 685 (we can't take the nav
beacon from marathon, they'll see us 20 miles out.) to go take care of him???
This kind of Code Word comminucation must be stopped!!! I can't believe we
let them infiltrate us like this. We know he's in California though, it
shouldn't be hard to track him down. We just land at the first place we come
to and tell them we are from the south, and we are looking for a Commi S.O.B.
that is parading as an American.
Email me off-line for further attack plans.
P.S. I'm down to my last 4 grenades, but the guy at at the Army Navy Store
said
"The Don't Ask, Don't Tell program should score some more really soon".
P.S.S. did Big Al ever get the S.T.C. for the 12 Guage pumps on ethier side
of the nose for Lucille??
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca |
| Subject: | Re: HELP ME OUT HERE MILT, BILBO, CRUNK, ETC!!!!! |
Pasop, Nico. Dit lyk vir my as iemand weet waar (en wie) jy is.
----- Original Message -----
From: JETPAUL(at)aol.com
Date: Tuesday, April 1, 2003 12:33 pm
Subject: Commander-List: Re: HELP ME OUT HERE MILT, BILBO, CRUNK, ETC!!!!!
>
> In a message dated 4/1/2003 2:54:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > Some folks say it's an April's Fools joke. They got me blasting
> mayor Daley.
> >
> > Ek's maar net 'n plaasjapie, wat verwag jy nou eintlik, huh?
> >
> > Nico
> >
>
> Is it just me or does it also look to you guys like Nico is giving
> code to
> the terrorists??
> OH MY GOD WHO KNOWS WHAT HE JUST LAUNCHED AGAINST ME BELOVED
> HOMELAND. Well
> Milt, you disavowed him as a real person. I guess you were right.
> Can we
> Trust Bilbo with us when we head west in the 685 (we can't take
> the nav
> beacon from marathon, they'll see us 20 miles out.) to go take
> care of him???
> This kind of Code Word comminucation must be stopped!!! I can't
> believe we
> let them infiltrate us like this. We know he's in California
> though, it
> shouldn't be hard to track him down. We just land at the first
> place we come
> to and tell them we are from the south, and we are looking for a
> Commi S.O.B.
> that is parading as an American.
> Email me off-line for further attack plans.
>
> P.S. I'm down to my last 4 grenades, but the guy at at the Army
> Navy Store
> said
> "The Don't Ask, Don't Tell program should score some more really
> soon".
> P.S.S. did Big Al ever get the S.T.C. for the 12 Guage pumps on
> ethier side
> of the nose for Lucille??
> JetPaul
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jody & Susan Pillatzki" <jpillatzki(at)702com.net> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP ME OUT HERE MILT, BILBO, CRUNK, ETC!!!!! |
Hey Paul, I think I am going to go out and fly your, oops I mean my airplane
for a while.
Got 47 hours on her already.
JODY
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: HELP ME OUT HERE MILT, BILBO, CRUNK, ETC!!!!!
>
> In a message dated 4/1/2003 2:54:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > Some folks say it's an April's Fools joke. They got me blasting mayor
Daley.
> >
> > Ek's maar net 'n plaasjapie, wat verwag jy nou eintlik, huh?
> >
> > Nico
> >
>
> Is it just me or does it also look to you guys like Nico is giving code to
> the terrorists??
> OH MY GOD WHO KNOWS WHAT HE JUST LAUNCHED AGAINST ME BELOVED HOMELAND.
Well
> Milt, you disavowed him as a real person. I guess you were right. Can we
> Trust Bilbo with us when we head west in the 685 (we can't take the nav
> beacon from marathon, they'll see us 20 miles out.) to go take care of
him???
> This kind of Code Word comminucation must be stopped!!! I can't believe
we
> let them infiltrate us like this. We know he's in California though, it
> shouldn't be hard to track him down. We just land at the first place we
come
> to and tell them we are from the south, and we are looking for a Commi
S.O.B.
> that is parading as an American.
> Email me off-line for further attack plans.
>
> P.S. I'm down to my last 4 grenades, but the guy at at the Army Navy
Store
> said
> "The Don't Ask, Don't Tell program should score some more really soon".
>
> P.S.S. did Big Al ever get the S.T.C. for the 12 Guage pumps on ethier
side
> of the nose for Lucille??
> JetPaul
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
TILLMAN333(at)aol.com wrote:
> Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
> of a Twin Commander?
AOPA Pilot mentioned a 690 that broke up during a CAT encounter at high
speed. No other details
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HELP ME OUT HERE MILT, BILBO, CRUNK, ETC!!!!! |
Hahahaha.
Folks, by the time the terrorists get this message, they will have other
stuff running down their legs.
Let me tell you about the day one of my more robust countrymen (they are
usually called Koos) called Saddam from the local pub and told him that they
decided to attack Iraq and remove him. (this was before Dubya took him on).
So, Saddam asked him how many men will be coming and he answered, "...we
are three but we just want to wait for some of the boys to finish their pool
game then there will be five of us." So SH explained to him that he has a
million soldiers ready to fight; does he still want to bring his army of
five over? He thought for a while and said that he will have to call him
back the next day, they first want to consider the situation.
Koos called Saddam back the next day and said that he spoke to some of
the boys at the boat club and they will also join in, and Saddam must know
that they now have a navy too. "How many ships do you have, Koos?" asks SH,
"and by the way I have added another 250,000 men to my army and I have a
whole array of battle ships, do you still want to come and remove me?"
Koos thought for a while and said he will call him back. The next day
Koos called back promptly and said that he has bad news for Saddam. "We now
have an airforce also. I went by the local flying club and the guys there
want to join us so, I must tell you that we have a Piper Colt, a Cessna 150
and a Cherokee 140 that will come with us. With a couple of additional beers
we will have the Cherokee 180 join us, man, and then you better watch out."
So, Saddam calmly told Koos that he has added another 750,000 men to his
army and he continued to explain that he has a very formidable airforce.
Koos thought for a while and said, "Saddie, I think we will pass. We won't
come after all."
"So, what changed your mind?" Saddam inquired.
"Well, you see, Saddam, the situation is that there is no way in which
we can feed two million prisoners of war."
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: HELP ME OUT HERE MILT, BILBO, CRUNK, ETC!!!!!
>
> In a message dated 4/1/2003 2:54:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > Some folks say it's an April's Fools joke. They got me blasting mayor
Daley.
> >
> > Ek's maar net 'n plaasjapie, wat verwag jy nou eintlik, huh?
> >
> > Nico
> >
>
> Is it just me or does it also look to you guys like Nico is giving code to
> the terrorists??
> OH MY GOD WHO KNOWS WHAT HE JUST LAUNCHED AGAINST ME BELOVED HOMELAND.
Well
> Milt, you disavowed him as a real person. I guess you were right. Can we
> Trust Bilbo with us when we head west in the 685 (we can't take the nav
> beacon from marathon, they'll see us 20 miles out.) to go take care of
him???
> This kind of Code Word comminucation must be stopped!!! I can't believe
we
> let them infiltrate us like this. We know he's in California though, it
> shouldn't be hard to track him down. We just land at the first place we
come
> to and tell them we are from the south, and we are looking for a Commi
S.O.B.
> that is parading as an American.
> Email me off-line for further attack plans.
>
> P.S. I'm down to my last 4 grenades, but the guy at at the Army Navy
Store
> said
> "The Don't Ask, Don't Tell program should score some more really soon".
>
> P.S.S. did Big Al ever get the S.T.C. for the 12 Guage pumps on ethier
side
> of the nose for Lucille??
> JetPaul
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Tylor-What is your Email address |
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
(reason: 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to [209.142.136.96]:
>>> DATA
<<< 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
<<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tylor-What is your Email address |
Try 1 800 Commie
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Commander-List: Tylor-What is your Email address
>
> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
>
> (reason: 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown)
>
> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> ... while talking to [209.142.136.96]:
> >>> DATA
> <<< 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
> 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
> <<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 4/1/2003 10:43:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
> It appears that the tail section separated from a 690 @ 27000 feet over
> Georgia.
When?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
> Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
> of a Twin Commander?
Recently? No.
I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob weight
modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a T-Storm
encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston model and I'm
not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area. It was a
freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high speed descent.
This happened about 5-6 years ago.
A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same arrival
route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not and pulled
the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ... hauling ass. This
is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off the red
line.
Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over the Reno,
Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the Turbo
Commander (and 685).
Anyone see a trend here?
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
690 Break UP
go to the web site
www.flysafeinsurance.com
Go to the link titled NTSB the info. is in the Month of March date of
loss
March 27, 2003 Homerville, Georgia.
Fly Safe,
Gary Tillman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 4/2/2003 8:01:31 AM Pacific Standard Time,
TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
> 690 Break UP
> go to the web site
Jeffery Pence was called away from the meeting without explanation, now we
know why. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
Your page is not coming up for me.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> 690 Break UP
> go to the web site
>
> www.flysafeinsurance.com
>
> Go to the link titled NTSB the info. is in the Month of March date of
> loss
> March 27, 2003 Homerville, Georgia.
> Fly Safe,
> Gary Tillman
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: 690B over Homerville, Ga. |
from: Steve. C.
Subject: 690b over Homerville, Ga.
NTSB Identification: ATL03FA068
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Thursday, March 27, 2003 in Homerville, GA
Aircraft: Rockwell 690B, registration: N53LG
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any
errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On March 27, 2003, at 0113 eastern standard time, a Rockwell 690B, N53LG, registered
to Haulers Insurance Company Inc., operating as a 14 CFR Part 91 positioning
flight, broke up in-flight while descending in the vicinity of Homerville,
Georgia. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight
plan was filed. The airplane was destroyed. The commercial pilot and pilot rated
airline transport pilot passenger received fatal injuries. The flight originated
from Mount Pleasant, Tennessee, at 2300 eastern central time.
Review of radar data revealed the airplane was at 27,000 feet heading southeast
at 01:11:41. At 01:11:55, the airplane was at 26,600 feet in a left turn. At
01:11:57, the airplane was at 25,700 feet. At 01:12:04, the airplane was heading
northeast at 23,200 feet. At 01:12:10, a pilot from N53LG stated, "May Day,
May Day." The controller asked the aircraft calling to say again and there was
no response. The last radar return was at 01:12:16, and the airplane was at
16,500 feet.
Examination of the crash site revealed portions of the left and right outboard
wings, left and right horizontal stabilizers, elevators, vertical stabilizer,
and rudder assembly separated from the airframe in flight. The crash debris line
extended 8,081 feet.
Index for Mar2003 | Index of months
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tylor Hall" <tylor(at)winddancer.aero> |
| Subject: | Tylor-What is your Email address |
I am at Tylor(at)winddancer.aero.
It changed recently with the new web page.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
www.winddancer.aero
970-731-2127
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
Subject: Commander-List: Tylor-What is your Email address
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
(reason: 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to [209.142.136.96]:
>>> DATA
<<< 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
<<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com> |
I see the trend but sure don't like the idea of having my tail beefed up.
The tail of my plane however has been augmented according to SB218
Milt
----- separation over the Reno,
> Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the Turbo
> Commander (and 685).
>
> Anyone see a trend here?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tylor-What is your Email address |
Milt,
Wake up. It's not the Pinko Commies anymore it's the Muslim Extreamists.
Beter dead than a rag on your head!!(nosalgic)
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Tylor-What is your Email address
>
> Try 1 800 Commie
> Milt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: Tylor-What is your Email address
>
>
>
> >
> > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> >
> > (reason: 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown)
> >
> > ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> > ... while talking to [209.142.136.96]:
> > >>> DATA
> > <<< 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
> > 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
> > <<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient)
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
SLOW DOWN???
Speed kills?????
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
> TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
>
>
> > Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
> > of a Twin Commander?
>
> Recently? No.
>
> I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob weight
> modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a T-Storm
> encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston model and
I'm
> not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
>
> Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area. It was
a
> freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high speed
descent.
> This happened about 5-6 years ago.
>
> A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same arrival
> route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not and
pulled
> the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ... hauling ass.
This
> is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off the red
> line.
>
> Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over the Reno,
> Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the Turbo
> Commander (and 685).
>
> Anyone see a trend here?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
What is a "positioning flight?" I read some other accident reports also and
they all refer to the flights as "positioning".
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> 690 Break UP
> go to the web site
>
> www.flysafeinsurance.com
>
> Go to the link titled NTSB the info. is in the Month of March date of
> loss
> March 27, 2003 Homerville, Georgia.
> Fly Safe,
> Gary Tillman
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Tom,
You have to strip off the quotes and the part that follows the last quote.
As that address is, it won't work.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> Your page is not coming up for me.
>
> Tom F.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
>
> >
> > 690 Break UP
> > go to the web site
> >
> > www.flysafeinsurance.com
> >
> > Go to the link titled NTSB the info. is in the Month of March date
of
> > loss
> > March 27, 2003 Homerville, Georgia.
> > Fly Safe,
> > Gary Tillman
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 04/02/03 10:40:45 Pacific Standard Time,
N414C(at)direcway.com writes:
> I see the trend but sure don't like the idea of having my tail beefed up.
Yes. Well, then do not fly to San Francisco, New Orleans, Fire Island, South
Beach and a few other places and your tail should be safe.
For mandatory flights to those destinations, I suggest the Rockwell Orifice
Protection System as part of your travel gear. It's a handy kit with 6
appropriately sized corks, plugs and covers.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 04/02/03 11:16:07 Pacific Standard Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> What is a "positioning flight?" I read some other accident reports also and
> they all refer to the flights as "positioning".
Refers to a flight where no passengers or cargo are on board and the crew is
positioning the aircraft for the pick up of pax or cargo, or, in air carrier
terms, the next "revenue leg."
The term is used in Part 91 operations as well, connoting that it's a
crew-only leg.
As to Bilbo's question, "Speed Kills?" Only when it can over stress
structure. So in the 685/690 series airframes, it's not a good idea to
harness the potential energy of altitude and come screaming down near or at
red line.
Pity, isn't it?
Wing Commander Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
CloudCraft(at)aol.com wrote:
> I suggest the Rockwell Orifice Protection System as part of your travel gear.
Is a Rockwell hardness tester part of this system?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Yup, a pity. I flew Electras. It wasn't the tail it was the wings. The
end result is the same.
Rapid deceleration syndrome, it sucks
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> In a message dated 04/02/03 11:16:07 Pacific Standard Time,
> nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
>
>
> > What is a "positioning flight?" I read some other accident reports also
and
> > they all refer to the flights as "positioning".
>
> Refers to a flight where no passengers or cargo are on board and the crew
is
> positioning the aircraft for the pick up of pax or cargo, or, in air
carrier
> terms, the next "revenue leg."
>
> The term is used in Part 91 operations as well, connoting that it's a
> crew-only leg.
>
> As to Bilbo's question, "Speed Kills?" Only when it can over stress
> structure. So in the 685/690 series airframes, it's not a good idea to
> harness the potential energy of altitude and come screaming down near or
at
> red line.
>
> Pity, isn't it?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Just the depth gauge.;>)
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
>
> CloudCraft(at)aol.com wrote:
> > I suggest the Rockwell Orifice Protection System as part of your travel
gear.
>
> Is a Rockwell hardness tester part of this system?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
Just moving an aircraft to a new location.....
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
What is a "positioning flight?" I read some other accident reports also and
they all refer to the flights as "positioning".
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> 690 Break UP
> go to the web site
>
> www.flysafeinsurance.com
>
> Go to the link titled NTSB the info. is in the Month of March date of
> loss
> March 27, 2003 Homerville, Georgia.
> Fly Safe,
> Gary Tillman
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
You must include Key West Fl in this list.....
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
In a message dated 04/02/03 10:40:45 Pacific Standard Time,
N414C(at)direcway.com writes:
> I see the trend but sure don't like the idea of having my tail beefed up.
Yes. Well, then do not fly to San Francisco, New Orleans, Fire Island, South
Beach and a few other places and your tail should be safe.
For mandatory flights to those destinations, I suggest the Rockwell Orifice
Protection System as part of your travel gear. It's a handy kit with 6
appropriately sized corks, plugs and covers.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
Guys,
Is it just me, or does everyone keep getting the same emails over and over
again from commander-list? I read them, delete them, and then they show up
again later. This just started today.
Moe Mills
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
I did not use quotes but the site is coming up now thanks.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> Tom,
> You have to strip off the quotes and the part that follows the last quote.
> As that address is, it won't work.
> Nico
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
>
>
> >
> > Your page is not coming up for me.
> >
> > Tom F.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
> >
> >
> > >
> > > 690 Break UP
> > > go to the web site
> > >
> > > www.flysafeinsurance.com
> > >
> > > Go to the link titled NTSB the info. is in the Month of March date
> of
> > > loss
> > > March 27, 2003 Homerville, Georgia.
> > > Fly Safe,
> > > Gary Tillman
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
Bilbo,
Re. the L-188 wing problems, as my memory tells me, the problem was "whirl
mode" vibration, leading to the failure of the structure between the core
engine and the prop gearbox, and the result was the whole prop assembly
tearing loose and destroying the surrounding wing structure.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton.
>
>Yup, a pity. I flew Electras. It wasn't the tail it was the wings. The
>end result is the same.
>
>Rapid deceleration syndrome, it sucks
>
>bilbo
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 04/02/03 11:16:07 Pacific Standard Time,
> > nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> >
> >
> > > What is a "positioning flight?" I read some other accident reports also
>and
> > > they all refer to the flights as "positioning".
> >
> > Refers to a flight where no passengers or cargo are on board and the crew
>is
> > positioning the aircraft for the pick up of pax or cargo, or, in air
>carrier
> > terms, the next "revenue leg."
> >
> > The term is used in Part 91 operations as well, connoting that it's a
> > crew-only leg.
> >
> > As to Bilbo's question, "Speed Kills?" Only when it can over stress
> > structure. So in the 685/690 series airframes, it's not a good idea to
> > harness the potential energy of altitude and come screaming down near or
>at
> > red line.
> >
> > Pity, isn't it?
> >
> > Wing Commander Gordon
> >
> > Wing Commander Gordon
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
All,
There was also a piston model broke up in the air in NZ, in the 60's I
think from memory,but this was a spar failure, and all the spar problems
and resultant AD's are well known.
The NZ aircraft had been subject to some pretty severe operating
conditions, although conditions on the final flight were not severe, as I
recall, just time ran out with the spreading crack.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton.
>
>In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
>TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
>
>
> > Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
> > of a Twin Commander?
>
>Recently? No.
>
>I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob weight
>modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a T-Storm
>encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston model and I'm
>not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
>
>Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area. It was a
>freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high speed descent.
>This happened about 5-6 years ago.
>
>A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same arrival
>route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not and pulled
>the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ... hauling ass. This
>is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off the red
>line.
>
>Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over the Reno,
>Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the Turbo
>Commander (and 685).
>
>Anyone see a trend here?
>
>Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
Not me, I receive only one copy of each Email.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> Guys,
>
> Is it just me, or does everyone keep getting the same emails over and over
> again from commander-list? I read them, delete them, and then they show
up
> again later. This just started today.
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics ISP Upgrade COMPLETED! |
Dear Listers,
I just wanted to send out a quick note to let everyone know that the 1.5Mb
T1 connection upgrade went smoothly today. They brought up the new line
and router yesterday on a test subnet and today the ISP switched over
connectivity about 12 noon with little to no incident. I just finished
some performance testing, and it appears that actual throughput and
interactive response is noticeably improved as advertised!
Enjoy!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Laxson <wlaxson1(at)corecom.net> |
| Subject: | Whirl Mode and Flutter |
> Re the L-188 wing problems, as my memory tells me, the problem was "whirl
> mode" vibration .....
Short video of electra whirl mode here:
http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/asm/Web/Site/QT/PWFlutter.html
Twin Comanche tail flutter video here:
http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/asm/Web/Site/QT/TCFlutter.html
Onset of flutter is one of the factors determining where the red line is
painted on the ASI.
William Laxson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Yup
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
> Bilbo,
> Re. the L-188 wing problems, as my memory tells me, the problem was "whirl
> mode" vibration, leading to the failure of the structure between the core
> engine and the prop gearbox, and the result was the whole prop assembly
> tearing loose and destroying the surrounding wing structure.
> Regards,
> Bill Hamilton.
>
>
> >
> >Yup, a pity. I flew Electras. It wasn't the tail it was the wings. The
> >end result is the same.
> >
> >Rapid deceleration syndrome, it sucks
> >
> >bilbo
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
> >
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 04/02/03 11:16:07 Pacific Standard Time,
> > > nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > What is a "positioning flight?" I read some other accident reports
also
> >and
> > > > they all refer to the flights as "positioning".
> > >
> > > Refers to a flight where no passengers or cargo are on board and the
crew
> >is
> > > positioning the aircraft for the pick up of pax or cargo, or, in air
> >carrier
> > > terms, the next "revenue leg."
> > >
> > > The term is used in Part 91 operations as well, connoting that it's a
> > > crew-only leg.
> > >
> > > As to Bilbo's question, "Speed Kills?" Only when it can over stress
> > > structure. So in the 685/690 series airframes, it's not a good idea
to
> > > harness the potential energy of altitude and come screaming down near
or
> >at
> > > red line.
> > >
> > > Pity, isn't it?
> > >
> > > Wing Commander Gordon
> > >
> > > Wing Commander Gordon
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fwd: FW: Meigs Poll: Vote NOW online...WGN Radio "Newsclick |
Poll": Doe s clos...
From: N700PF(at)aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:30:56 EST
Subject: Fwd: FW: Meigs Poll: Vote NOW online...WGN Radio "Newsclick Poll": Doe
s clos...
From: "Elliott, Robert E." <ElliottRE@alyeska-pipeline.com>
Subject: FW: Meigs Poll: Vote NOW online...WGN Radio "Newsclick Poll": Doe
s closing Meigs halt terrorism?
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 07:25:46 -0900
FYI & vote.
Bob Elliott, Project Engineer
907-787-8178
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Thomas [mailto:mypa12(at)yahoo.com]
Subject: Meigs Poll: Vote NOW online...WGN Radio "Newsclick Poll": Does
closing Meigs halt terrorism?
I just voted and the current poll shows 95% No and 5% Yes.
JT
> From: "Friends of Meigs Field" <news(at)friendsofmeigs.org>
> > URGENT!
> >
> > WGN Radio is running an online poll today, asking:
> >
> > Do you feel that closing Meigs Field reduces the risk of a terrorist
> attack on Chicago?
> >
> > It is currently running 88% NO 12% YES
> >
> > Visit: http://wgnradio.freepolls.com/cgi-bin/polls/006/poll_center.htm
> >
> > to cast your vote!
> >
> > - SGW
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________________________________
> > Powered by List Builder
> > To unsubscribe follow the link:
> > http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=10097&s=05FF72B5B896C47B&m=135
> >
>
>
http://tax.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Dominguez" <dan(at)worldflight2000.com> |
Fellas-
Just an update.
Plane of the season is coming up and we need a few recommendations.
These can be done anonymously on the plane of the season page (bottom).
The web site has several pages easily distinguishable (red) that will only be available
to TCFG memebers. That change over date is now 14April03 due to a few
problems securing Membership information. So if you don't register...
Regarding Gary Tillman's question, in the LIBRARY you can scroll to the bottom,
type in a Tail Number if you know it, or MORE OPTIONS on the "NTSB" reports.
The TCFG web page will come up requesting more info.
For Gary's Question, just select AIRCRAFT as a 690 and choose SEVERITY as fatal
to filter out the other incidents. Unfortunately chances are good that an inflight
breakup would result in Fatal Injuries. Do that, and then SUBMIT QUERY.
You will be surprised how many 690's have come apart in flight and the reasons
for it.
If you'd like a more detailed search including EVERYTHING that was ever filed with
the FAA, then simply click on the The National Aviation Safety Data Analysis
Center (NASDAC) link. Unfortunately the site is restricted and we can't offer
a direct link to the query database. Its simple but you can follow these
steps. CLICK to AGREE to their terms then on Databses on the LEFT when the new
page pops up. When the next page pops up you'll have to scroll down and click
on "FAA Accident /Incident Data System (AIDS)" This will take you to another
page and there you can click "AIDS Data Query Tool". The form is self explanatory
but is very in depth. This is a wonderful too for prebuys. And remember
DO NOT put an N in front of US Tail Numbers.
Daisy's got a few more tricks up her sleeveless dress, and I still need the Colemill
500A numbers for the aircraft page. We're here to help...
Blue Skies
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Maybe Nico is O.K. |
In a message dated 4/2/2003 2:58:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Hahahaha.
>
> Folks, by the time the terrorists get this message, they will have other
> stuff running down their legs.
>
O.K. Nico is back in the club. I see on Fox news that the Medina and Bahgdad
divisions are detroyed, I guess they didn't get his coded messge.
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jody and Susan Pillatzki" <jpillatzki(at)702com.net> |
"Susan Pillatzki" ,
"Ryan Anderson" ,
"Lori Pithey" , "Kim Freeman" ,
"Jonathan Paul" , ,
"Jim Crunkleton" ,
"Hieke Berthold" ,
"GENE CHRISTIANSON" ,
"Gary Carlson" , ,
----- Original Message -----
From: Shannon Highland
; derek ; DonnaCrisalle ; jesse ; KeriStenstrom ; mima ; nate ; PaigeBetters
; paula ; ross ; Ryanhighland ; sam ; shanebetters ; Tara Reynolds ; tommysagerhorn
Subject: Fw:
----- Original Message -----
From: Miles, Andy O. IC2(SW)
-----Original Message-----
From: Goodman, Ryan M. ET3(SW)
Casey, Daniel R. ET3; Davy, Jason M. ET3; Hatfield, William III IC3; Joker,
Sean M. IC3; Knowles, Theodore M. ET1(SW); McCumber, Brad E. IC2(SW/AW); Miles,
Andy O. IC2(SW); Moreiradesouza, Celso IC3(SW); Mullins, Leonard J. ET2; Page,
Daniel S. ET2(SW); Pullins, Roger P. IC2(SW); Reed, Ryan M. IC3(SW); Roth,
Aaron J. ET3(SW); Shaffner, James A. ET1; Wilks, Darren R. ET2(SW)
Subject: FW: Fw: Friday Morning
Please take a moment to read this:
"THE AVERAGE MILITARY MAN"
The average age of the military man is 19 years.
He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered
by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears, not old
enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his country.
He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car than wash
his father's; but he has never collected unemployment either.
He's a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student, pursued
some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy, and has a steady
girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left, or swears to be waiting
when he returns from half a world away.
He listens to rock and roll or hip-hop or rap or jazz or swing and 155 mm Howitzers.
He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because he is working
or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk.
He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but he can field
strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time in the dark.
He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade launcher and
use either one effectively if he must.
He digs foxholes and latrines and can apply first aid like a professional.
He can march until he is told to stop or stop until he is told to march.
He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without spirit
or individual dignity.
He is self-sufficient. He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and wears the
other. He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry.
He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle.
He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts. If you're
thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food.
He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when you run low.
He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like they were his hands.
He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job.
He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay and still find
ironic humor in it all. He has seen more suffering and death then he should have
in his short lifetime.
He has stood atop mountains of dead bodies, and helped to create them.
He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and
is unashamed.
He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body while at rigid
attention, while tempering the burning desire to 'square-away' those around
him who haven't bothered to stand, remove their hat, or even stop talking. In
an odd twist, day in and day out, far from home, he defends their right to be
disrespectful.
Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great-grandfather, he is paying the price
for our freedom.
Beardless or not, he is not a boy.
He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country free for over 200 years.
He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship and understanding.
Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood.
_____________
When you receive this, consider stopping for a moment to say a prayer for
our ground troops in Afghanistan, sailors on ships, and airmen in the air, and
for all of those at war with Iraq. There is nothing attached.
This can be very powerful.... Just send this to all the people in your address
book. Do not stop the wheel, please.... Of all the gifts you could give a
US Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman, prayer is the very best one.
Prayer Wheel for our Military: "Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands. Protect
them as they protect us. Bless them and their families for the selfless
acts they perform for us in our time of need. Amen."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: "THE AVERAGE MILITARY MAN" |
That was interesting: I went through my address book to forward that email
sent by Jody to people I knew would appreciate and 75% of them are on this
list ...
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Web Page Update |
Good Morning Dan.
I'm headed to SNF Saturday, AM.
Should arrive around 10:15.
I'll try my best to get the accurate #'s for the Collemill 500A's. when I get
back...
Many have been converted to the Shrike, with the nose, tail and wing mods.
Mine is stock with the Colemill Engines only.
Keep Up the Good Work.
Thanks,
Gary Tillman
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: Rules for the Non-Military Personnel!!! |
jpowell717(at)msn.com, SinkBird(at)aol.com, b.rutledge(at)charter.net,
Wingnut195(at)cs.com, stubie(at)mindspring.com, BeccaSue1975(at)aol.com,
Clydejr86(at)aol.com, blankenship3(at)peoplepc.com, C04Glenn.Dahl(at)USAFA.edu,
commander-list(at)matronics.com, Critterwife95(at)aol.com, Crunk1(at)direcway.com,
cwall(at)worldflight2000.com, dbrunson(at)charter.net, Dtihs(at)aol.com,
Flyinjetz(at)aol.com, Jpillatzki(at)702com.net, jsalex2(at)msn.com,
lfloyd(at)cswnet.com, DuckRyder(at)att.net, Carter1984(at)aol.com, TAYLORMS1(at)aol.com
From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
angelbear1174(at)msn.com, elclarko(at)earthlink.net, evniehoff(at)yahoo.com,
heyjude(at)access995.com, JETPAUL(at)aol.com, torituria(at)yahoo.com,
kathyfla(at)hotmail.com, flygirlkt(at)hotmail.com, landhome(at)edge.net,
max2150(at)sbcglobal.net, N414C(at)direcway.com, patrina_speight(at)hotmail.com,
redredwine22(at)hotmail.com, rkmoore17(at)hotmail.com, bobirdie(at)msn.com,
sprice1(at)ford.com, stefiec3(at)aol.com, stillpurple218(at)yahoo.com,
CATONY(at)charter.net, jhobesh34(at)yahoo.com
Subject: Fwd: Rules for the Non-Military Personnel!!!
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:03:33 -0500
>From: "Melissa Brown" <melissatb(at)hotmail.com>
>To: allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com, cjohnsonwcsd(at)hotmail.com, titan3963(at)aol.com,
>dec23196637174(at)yahoo.com, lynnbr16(at)aol.com, cpd492(at)charter.net
>Subject: Fwd: Rules for the Non-Military Personnel!!!
>Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 16:27:54 -0600
>
From: "Michael Jackson" <sgtmikejackson(at)hotmail.com>
Code3pro(at)aol.com, djacannjac(at)aol.com, drsgale(at)compuserve.com, dustyr(at)williamson-tn.org,
eddiefarrey(at)aol.com, Gay.Rye(at)state.tn.us, jacqueline.mcdonald(at)ms.ngb.army.mil,
Jeff.Kurtz(at)ssa.gov, jwood26(at)bellsouth.net, lbustetter(at)wmed.org,
mcstuber(at)cwnet.com, melissatb(at)hotmail.com, mhpate(at)bellsouth.net, mpatter2(at)bellsouth.net,
patricia.a.ladd(at)vanderbilt.edu, rickwatsonwcsd(at)hotmail.com,
rmholt(at)twlakes.net, roddyp(at)williamson-tn.org, roman1616(at)hotmail.com, sammieb(at)wcs.edu,
sgtclark26(at)hotmail.com, sclark(at)wmed.org, sharonl1(at)wcs.edu, TNeill1648(at)aol.com,
wcsd72(at)tnets.net, WVBowker(at)comcast.net
Subject: Rules for the Non-Military Personnel!!!
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:01:50 -0600
Dear Civilians,
We know that the current state of affairs in our great nation have many
civilians up in arms and excited to join the military.
For those of you who can't join, you can still lend a hand. Here are a few
of the areas we would like your assistance:
1) The next time you see an adult talking (or wearing a hat) during the
playing of the National Anthem ... kick their ass.
2) When you witness firsthand someone burning the American Flag in
protest... kick their ass.
3) Regardless of the rank they held while they served, pay the highest
amount of respect to all veterans. If you see anyone doing otherwise,
quietly pull them aside and explain how these Veterans fought for the
very freedom they bask in every second. Enlighten them on the many
sacrifices these Veterans made to make this Nation great. Then hold them
down while a Disabled Veteran kicks their ass.
4) (GUYS) If you were never in the military, DO NOT pretend that you
were. Wearing battle dress uniforms (BDU's), telling others that you used
to be "Special Forces," and collecting GI Joe memorabilia, might have been
okay if you were still seven. Now, it will only make you look stupid and
get your ass kicked.
5) Next time you come across an Air Force member, do not ask them,
"Do you fly a jet?" Not everyone in the Air Force is a pilot. Such
ignorance deserves an ass kicking (children are exempt).
6) If you witness someone calling the U.S. Coast Guard non military,
inform them of their mistake...and kick their ass.
7) Roseanne Barr's singing of the National Anthem is not a blooper
......it was a disgrace and disrespectful. Laugh, and sooner or later
your ass will be kicked.
8) Next time Old Glory (U.S. flag) prances by during a parade, get on
your damn feet and pay homage to her by placing your hand over your
heart.. Quietly thank the military member or veteran lucky enough to be
carrying her...of course, failure to do either of those could earn you a
severe ass kicking.
9) What Jane Fonda did during the Vietnam War makes her the enemy.
The proper word to describe her is "traitor". Just mention her nomination
for Woman of the Year" and get your ass kicked.
10) Don't try to discuss politics with a military member or a veteran.
We are Americans and we all bleed the same regardless of our party
affiliation. Our Chain of Command, is to include our commander in
Chief. The President (for those who didn't know) is our CIC regardless of
political party. We have no inside track on what happens inside those big
important buildings where all those "representatives" meet. All we know
is that when those civilian representatives screw up the situation, they call
upon
the military to go straighten it out. The military member might direct you to
Oliver North. (I can see him kicking your ass already.)
11) "Your mama wears combat boots" never made sense to me ... stop saying it!
If she did, she would most likely be a vet and therefore, could kick your ass!
12) Bin Laden and the Taliban are not communists, so stop saying
"Let's go kill those Commie's!!!" And stop asking us where he is!!!!
Crystal balls are not standard issue in the military. That reminds me ... if you
see anyone calling those damn psychic phone numbers; let me know, so I can go
kick their ass.
13) Flyboy (Air Force), Jar Head (Marines), Grunt (Army), Squid (Navy)
etc, are terms of endearment we use describing each other. Unless you are
a service member or vet, you have not earned the right to use them.
That could get your ass kicked.
14) Last but not least, whether or not you become a member of the
military, support our troops and their families. Every Thanksgiving and
religious holiday that you enjoy with family and friends, please remember
that there are literally thousands of sailors and troops far from home
wishing they could be with their families. Thank God for our military and
the sacrifices they make every day. Without them, our country would get
its ass kicked.
* "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
the press.
* It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech..
* It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
* It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who makes it possible for the
protester to burn the flag."
Authored by: Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
Please pass this on so I won't have to kick your ass!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: Check out The Home Front |
jpowell717(at)msn.com, SinkBird(at)aol.com, b.rutledge(at)charter.net,
Wingnut195(at)cs.com, stubie(at)mindspring.com, BeccaSue1975(at)aol.com,
Clydejr86(at)aol.com, blankenship3(at)peoplepc.com, C04Glenn.Dahl(at)USAFA.edu,
commander-list(at)matronics.com, Crunk1(at)direcway.com,
cwall(at)worldflight2000.com, DuckRyder(at)att.net, Carter1984(at)aol.com,
lfloyd(at)cswnet.com, jsalex2(at)msn.com, Jpillatzki(at)702com.net,
allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com, keyscruising(at)earthlink.net, w.bow(at)att.net,
COMMANDER560(at)cs.com, B777atkins(at)aol.com, TILLMAN333(at)aol.com
From: "Allen Reed" <allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com>
Crunk12(at)bellsouth.net, angelbear1174(at)msn.com, elclarko(at)earthlink.net,
evniehoff(at)yahoo.com, melissatb(at)hotmail.com, grammiekak(at)hotmail.com,
heyjude(at)access995.com, JETPAUL(at)aol.com, torituria(at)yahoo.com,
flygirlkt(at)hotmail.com, landhome(at)edge.net, KayeByMail(at)juno.com,
marafw(at)cs.com, max2150(at)sbcglobal.net, N414C(at)direcway.com,
patrina_speight(at)hotmail.com, redredwine22(at)hotmail.com,
rkmoore17(at)hotmail.com, bobirdie(at)msn.com, sprice1(at)ford.com,
stefiec3(at)aol.com, CATONY(at)charter.net, jhobesh34(at)yahoo.com
Subject: Fwd: Check out The Home Front
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:07:28 -0500
>From: Patches <stillpurple218(at)yahoo.com>
>>---------------------------------
From: AsTheSea(at)aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:50:14 EST
Subject: Check out The Home Front
Click here: The Home Front
Click here: The Home Front
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: FW: A speech you won't hear on Al Jazeera |
jpowell717(at)msn.com, SinkBird(at)aol.com, b.rutledge(at)charter.net,
Wingnut195(at)cs.com, stubie(at)mindspring.com, BeccaSue1975(at)aol.com,
Clydejr86(at)aol.com, blankenship3(at)peoplepc.com, bray0(at)dellepro.com,
commander-list(at)matronics.com, Critterwife95(at)aol.com, Crunk1(at)direcway.com,
cwall(at)worldflight2000.com, dbrunson(at)charter.net, Dtihs(at)aol.com,
Flyinjetz(at)aol.com, Jpillatzki(at)702com.net, jsalex2(at)msn.com,
lfloyd(at)cswnet.com, DuckRyder(at)att.net, Carter1984(at)aol.com, sdg(at)negia.net,
NANNANPC(at)aol.com, tdphep(at)earthlink.net, allen_reed2(at)hotmail.com,
keyscruising(at)earthlink.net, w.bow(at)att.net, COMMANDER560(at)cs.com,
B777atkins(at)aol.com, TILLMAN333(at)aol.com
From: Dahl Glenn C2C CS36 <C04Glenn.Dahl(at)USAFA.edu>
Subject: FW: A speech you won't hear on Al Jazeera
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 13:10:29 -0700
thought youmight like this
-----Original Message-----
From: Trombetta John C2C CS36
Subject: FW: A speech you won't hear on Al Jazeera
Read below.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jablonsky Daneta C2C CS22
Jablonsky Daneta C2C CS22; Kennedy Patrick C1C CS19; Keyser Jonathan C2C
CS32; Kingry Michael C2C CS33; Kramer Jason C1C CS14; Lisanti Joseph C1C
CS08; Mallory John C1C CS30; Medina Dyan C2C CS06; Miller Zachary C2C CS03;
Nicoloff James C1C CS03; Payne Zakary C2C CS13; Pulley Preston C1C CS04;
Rounds Raymond C1C CS21; Russell Matthew C1C CS21; Sargeant Patrick C2C
CS03; Slaughter Stephen C2C CS12; Sumner Jonathan C1C CS31; Trombetta John
C2C CS36; Watts Brian C2C CS30; White Ethan C1C CS14; Whitener Jalen C2C
CS16; Wisehart William C2C CS10; Wozniak Kristin C1C CS33; Mallory John C1C
CS30
Subject: FW: A speech you won't hear on Al Jazeera
Its a good speech:) Have a great night!
-----Original Message-----
From: Tomme Ed B LtCol USAFA/DFP
Sarah C2C CS20; Home (tomme(at)att.net); Gurley Kenneth S. SAF/AQLS; 'Carr,
Stephen'; Hopper Gary LtCol USFK; 'Brown ric(at)tomme.net;
Glodowski Al G Lt Col OL-B 470 ABS/RFAS; Barry Crane
(Barry_Crane(at)ondcp.eop.gov); Dan Law (dan(at)icelus.com); Tadych Brent C1C
CS10; Backscheider Robert C1C CS12; Beatty Christopher C2C CS03; Dogo Harun
C1C Bosnia CS33; Gausepohl Christopher C3C CS34; Hartsell Sidney C2C CS18;
Helms Nicholas C1C CS13; Henderson James C2C CS11; Jablonsky Daneta C2C
CS22; Kelley Michael C1C CS27; Kitzke Nathan C1C CS13; Linder Krista C1C
CS19; McDowell Mark C3C CS34; Nagy Stefan C1C CS31; Orzech Peter C3C CS32;
Pearson Daniel C1C CS27; Quinn Aaron C2C CS27; Ritchie Simon C1C CS34;
Sedgwick Susan C2C CS34; Serrecchia Jamie C1C CS36; Weimer Christopher C4C
CS27; Anderson Erik C4C CS15; Aspden Vivien C4C CS18; Bethea McLean C4C
CS29; Brewer Tyler C4C CS17; Bultemeier Katherine C4C CS24; DeLaFuente Aaron
C4C CS14; Feeney Benjamin C4C CS33; Gallagher Edward C4C CS33; Gibson Tanner
C4C CS13; Gifford Taylor C4C CS02; Grant Jackson C4C CS04; Gray Christina
C4C CS22; Harris Andrew C4C CS08; Hieb Jared C4C CS01; Johnson Rachel C4C
CS16; Karrer Andrew C4C CS12; Keefer Stephen C4C CS16; Loffer Katherine C4C
CS31; McLean Brenden C4C CS06; McMahon Patrick C4C CS07; Rasmussen Amanda
C4C CS03; Roady Ryne C4C CS03; Shockley Liesl C4C CS11; St Clair Daniel C4C
CS29; Tompkins Alicia C4C CS19; Weatherly Phillip C4C CS23
Subject: A speech you won't hear on Al Jazeera
Enjoy.
EDWARD B. TOMME, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF
Assistant Professor of Physics and Director of Core Programs
ed.tomme(at)usafa.af.mil
HQ USAFA/DFP
2354 Fairchild Drive, Suite 2A31
USAF Academy, Colorado 80840-6254
Tel: Commercial 719.333.2179, DSN 333.2179
Fax: Commercial 719.333.3182, DSN 333.3182
Physics Department: 719.333.3510, DSN 333.3510
-----Original Message-----
From: Phinney Thomas E MSgt 50 SCS/SCBI
Subject: Excellent Speech by Brit
Our Business Now Is North"
Lt. Col. Tim Collins, 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish after addressing his
troops <http://www.liebreich.com/LDC/Images/Opinion/TimCollins.jpg>
Lt. Col. Tim Collins, 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish after addressing his
troops
22 March 2003
With one phrase, Lt. Col. Tim Collins, commander of the 1st Battalion of the
Royal Irish, summed up the task in hand for the British forces waiting to
remove Saddam Hussein from Iraq.
Collins was addressing his 800 men, an arm of Britain's 16 Air Assault
Brigade, at Fort Blair Mayne, a Kuwaiti desert camp 20 miles south of the
Iraqi border. Here is as much of his extraordinary speech as has been
reported.
"We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their
country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will
be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them.
"There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly.
Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the
others I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they
choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in
victory.
"Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the
Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see
things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to
find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be
embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. Don't treat
them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be
poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their
lives was brought by you.
"If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got
dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity
in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves.
"It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive but
there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We
will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no
time for sorrow.
"The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are
bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders
who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for
Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they
have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this
place. Show them no pity.
"It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly.
I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts, I can
assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders
to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure
that one day they go home to their family.
"The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.
"If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in
cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned
unless your conduct is of the highest for your deeds will follow you down
through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation.
"[Regarding the use by Saddam of chemical or biological weapons] It is not a
question of if, it's a question of when. We know he has already devolved the
decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the
decision himself. If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.
"As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place
for us having been there.
"Our business now is north."
-----Original Message-----
From: Trombetta John C2C CS36
To:
CS36_All
Subject: FW: A speech you won't hear on Al
Jazeera
-----Original Message-----
From: Jablonsky
Daneta C2C CS22
Sent:
Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:19 PM
C1C CS18; Ice Robert C1C CS27; Jablonsky Daneta C2C CS22; Kennedy Patrick C1C
CS19; Keyser Jonathan C2C CS32; Kingry Michael C2C CS33; Kramer Jason C1C CS14;
Lisanti Joseph C1C CS08; Mallory John C1C CS30; Medina Dyan C2C CS06; Miller
Zachary C2C CS03; Nicoloff James C1C CS03; Payne Zakary C2C CS13; Pulley Preston
C1C CS04; Rounds Raymond C1C CS21; Russell Matthew C1C CS21; Sargeant Patrick
C2C CS03; Slaughter Stephen C2C CS12; Sumner Jonathan C1C CS31; Trombetta John
C2C CS36; Watts Brian C2C CS30; White Ethan C1C CS14; Whitener Jalen C2C CS16;
Wisehart William C2C CS10; Wozniak Kristin C1C CS33; Mallory John C1C
CS30
Subject: FW: A speech you
won't hear on Al Jazeera
Its a good speech:) Have a great
night!
-----Original
Message-----
From: Tomme Ed B
LtCol USAFA/DFP
Sent:
Wednesday, April 02, 2003 9:51 AM
CWD4-Staff; Belanger Eva C1C CS22; Pauza Sarah C2C CS20; Home (tomme(at)att.net);
Gurley Kenneth S. SAF/AQLS; 'Carr, Stephen'; Hopper Gary LtCol USFK; 'Brown
Anne Tomme'; ric(at)tomme.net; Glodowski Al G Lt Col OL-B 470 ABS/RFAS; Barry
Crane (Barry_Crane(at)ondcp.eop.gov); Dan Law (dan(at)icelus.com); Tadych Brent C1C
CS10; Backscheider Robert C1C CS12; Beatty Christopher C2C CS03; Dogo Harun=20C1C
Bosnia CS33; Gausepohl Christopher C3C CS34; Hartsell Sidney C2C CS18; Helms
Nicholas C1C CS13; Henderson James C2C CS11; Jablonsky Daneta C2C CS22; Kelley
Michael C1C CS27; Kitzke Nathan C1C CS13; Linder Krista C1C CS19; McDowell Mark
C3C CS34; Nagy Stefan C1C CS31; Orzech Peter C3C CS32; Pearson Daniel C1C CS27;
Quinn Aaron C2C CS27; Ritchie Simon C1C CS34; Sedgwick Susan C2C CS34;
Serrecchia Jamie C1C CS36; Weimer Christopher C4C CS27; Anderson Erik C4C CS15;
Aspden Vivien C4C CS18; Bethea McLean C4C CS29; Brewer Tyler C4C CS17;
Bultemeier Katherine C4C CS24; DeLaFuente Aaron C4C CS14; Feeney Benjamin C4C
CS33; Gallagher Edward C4C CS33; Gibson Tanner C4C CS13; Gifford Taylor C4C
CS02; Grant Jackson C4C CS04; Gray Christina C4C CS22; Harris Andrew C4C CS08;
Hieb Jared C4C CS01; Johnson Rachel C4C CS16; Karrer Andrew C4C CS12; Keefer
Stephen C4C CS16; Loffer Katherine C4C CS31; McLean Brenden C4C CS06; McMahon
Patrick C4C CS07; Rasmussen Amanda C4C CS03; Roady Ryne C4C CS03; Shockley Liesl
C4C CS11; St Clair Daniel C4C CS29; Tompkins Alicia C4C CS19; Weatherly Phillip
C4C CS23
Subject: A speech you
won't hear on Al Jazeera
Enjoy.
EDWARD B.
TOMME, Lieutenant Colonel,
USAF
Assistant Professor of
Physics and Director of Core Programs
ed.tomme(at)usafa.af.mil
HQ
USAFA/DFP
2354 Fairchild Drive,
Suite 2A31
USAF Academy, Colorado
80840-6254
Tel:
Commercial
719.333.2179,=20DSN
333.2179
Fax:
Commercial
719.333.3182,=20DSN
333.3182
Physics Department:
719.333.3510, DSN
333.3510
-----Original
Message-----
From: Phinney
Thomas E MSgt 50 SCS/SCBI
AM
David Melancon; John Moore; Randy Miller
Subject: Excellent Speech by Brit
Our Business Now Is
North"
![]()
http://www.liebreich.com/LDC/Images/Opinion/TimCollins.jpg" width275
border0 NOSEND"1">
Lt.
Col. Tim Collins, 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish after addressing
his troops
22 March 2003
With one phrase, Lt. Col. Tim
Collins, commander of the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish, summed up=20the
task in hand for the British forces waiting to remove Saddam Hussein from
Iraq.
Collins was addressing his 800 men,
an arm of Britain's 16 Air Assault Brigade, at Fort Blair Mayne, a Kuwaiti
desert camp 20 miles south of the Iraqi border. Here is as much of his
extraordinary speech as has been reported.
"We go to liberate not to conquer.
We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free
a
people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their
own. Show respect for them.
"There are some who are alive at
this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on
that journey, we will not send. As for the others I expect you to rock
their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are
ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.
"Iraq is steeped in history. It is
the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace=20of
Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to
see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and
upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their
hospitality even though they have nothing. Don't treat them as refugees
for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years
to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was
brought by you.
"If there are casualties of war then
remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did
not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly
and mark their graves.
"It is my foremost intention to
bring every single one of you out alive but there may be people among=20us
who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their
sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow.
"The enemy should be in no doubt
that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful
destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their
souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces
will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die
they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them=20no
pity.
"It is a big step to take another
human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken
life needlessly in other conflicts, I can assure you they live with the
mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they
have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home
to their family.
"The ones who wish to fight, well,
we aim to please.
"If you harm the regiment or its
history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your
family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of=20the
highest for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring
shame on neither our uniform or our nation.
"[Regarding the use by Saddam of
chemical or biological weapons] It is not a question of if, it's a
question of when. We know he has already devolved the decision to lower
commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself.=20If
we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.
"As for ourselves, let's bring
everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there.
"Our business now is north."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis Polito" <cloudhopper(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | I have a case of the sniffles but Kleenex won't help. |
Greetings fellow Commanderites
Who among you can provide me relief with a serious case of the sniffles?
The relief that I am seeking involves a measurement with a ruler the dimension
between two 1/8"npt pipe plugs that are located under the engine nacelle on a
Commander 500B or Shrike. Any IO-540xxxx powered airplane will suffice. Or better
yet, if you have an IO-540 engine lying around on your living room floor (only
applies if you live in the south) with it's belly facing skyward then the
measurement will be readily apparent. I need the dimension laterally between
the plugs. Please advise if the holes are equidistant from the front of the engine
sump using the front sump edge as a reference.
According to the Lycoming manual, each IO-540xxxx is supposed to be equipped with
two each one way valves P/N 75444 that are affixed to the bottom of each engine.
The 1/8" pipe hole is actually drilled into the induction system. The "fitting"
as Lycoming describes it provides a drain for accumulated fuel to drain
out following engine shut down. This "fitting" is actually a one way valve.
When the engine is started the valve responds to low vacuum pressure and closes
off a small orifice thus preventing a leak in the induction system. When the
engine is shut down in the absence of the vacuum, the valve opens up and allows
accumulated fuel to drain. This valve is commonly known as a "sniffle" valve.
If you look at the engine installation from the nose of the aircraft you will see
that the engines are slightly tilted towards the inboard side.
On my airplane the access holes for the sniffle valves were cut out at the "uphill"
or outboard side of the engine nacelle. Since this area is very tight and
the sun doesn't shine much in this area, drilling a second inboard hole in the
lower nacelle is going to be tricky without some idea of where to place the
drill bit. I don't want to drill 18 holes to discover the right spot.
If anyone can provide me with the center to center dimensions I will see that you
receive a case of Kleenex. Please specify if you prefer scented or unscented.
Now I will bet that the majority of the Commanders out there will have none, or
one valve installed.
Let's do a survey to determine how the fleet is so equipped.
Thanks
Dennis Polito
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: I have a case of the sniffles but Kleenex won't |
help.
I once packed an intake so full of snow while on a long hold at very reduced power,
that the engine quit. (GO-480) After I got on the ground (a below minimums
single-engine apc) in warmer temps, water ran out of that drain onto the taxiway.
Maybe a quart or more. Then the engine was restarted with little difficulty.
My advice, use alternate air in heavy snow, even if the wings remain clear.
And check the operation of the drains periodically. Oh, yeah, and never admit
anything to the FAA. Steve C.
Subject: Commander-List: I have a case of the sniffles but Kleenex won't help.
Greetings fellow Commanderites
Who among you can provide me relief with a serious case of the sniffles?
The relief that I am seeking involves a measurement with a ruler the dimension
between two 1/8"npt pipe plugs that are located under the engine nacelle on
a Commander 500B or Shrike. Any IO-540xxxx powered airplane will suffice. Or better
yet, if you have an IO-540 engine lying around on your living room floor
(only applies if you live in the south) with it's belly facing skyward then the
measurement will be readily apparent. I need the dimension laterally between
the plugs. Please advise if the holes are equidistant from the front of the
engine sump using the front sump edge as a reference.
According to the Lycoming manual, each IO-540xxxx is supposed to be equipped
with two each one way valves P/N 75444 that are affixed to the bottom of each
engine. The 1/8" pipe hole is actually drilled into the induction system. The
"fitting" as Lycoming describes it provides a drain for accumulated fuel to drain
out following engine shut down. This "fitting" is actually a one way valve.
When the engine is started the valve responds to low vacuum pressure and closes
off a small orifice thus preventing a leak in the induction system. When the
engine is shut down in the absence of the vacuum, the valve opens up and allows
accumulated fuel to drain. This valve is commonly known as a "sniffle" valve.
If you look at the engine installation from the nose of the aircraft you will
see that the engines are slightly tilted towards the inboard side.
On my airplane the access holes for the sniffle valves were cut out at the "uphill"
or outboard side of the engine nacelle. Since this area is very tight and
the sun doesn't shine much in this area, drilling a second inboard hole in
the lower nacelle is going to be tricky without some idea of where to place the
drill bit. I don't want to drill 18 holes to discover the right spot.
If anyone can provide me with the center to center dimensions I will see that
you receive a case of Kleenex. Please specify if you prefer scented or unscented.
Now I will bet that the majority of the Commanders out there will have none,
or one valve installed.
Let's do a survey to determine how the fleet is so equipped.
Thanks
Dennis Polito
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Victor Fernandez Cochon" <vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com> |
Does anyone know of a good prop lock and where to get it,
Thanks,
Victor
________________________________________________________________________________
victor, i would recommend a battery cut off switch instead of a prop lock. prop
locks are expensive and the engines cannot be proped easily without a starter.
i have a small switch hidden that interrupts the master solenoid. very cheap
prop lock. al hoffman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Exhaust manifold nuts |
I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm talking
about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are two on
every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight glues
and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem on
Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the engine,
instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar installation.
KVJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust manifold nuts |
Lockwire!
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
> I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm
talking
> about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are two
on
> every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight glues
> and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem on
> Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the
engine,
> instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar installation.
>
> KVJ
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Exhaust manifold nuts |
Huh? What's Lockwire???
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
Lockwire!
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
> I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm
talking
> about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are two
on
> every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight glues
> and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem on
> Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the
engine,
> instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar installation.
>
> KVJ
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust manifold nuts |
Drill em and wire em
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
> I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm
talking
> about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are two
on
> every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight glues
> and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem on
> Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the
engine,
> instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar installation.
>
> KVJ
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Exhaust manifold nuts |
Have you drilled these studs before? They are quite small, I think 1/4" and
I think they're also hardened steel, so they would be really difficult to
drill. I'm sure it would work, but I would be a little leery of trying it
without knowing it had been done with good results.
KVJ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of N414C
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
Drill em and wire em
Milt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
> I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm
talking
> about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are two
on
> every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight glues
> and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem on
> Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the
engine,
> instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar installation.
>
> KVJ
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust manifold nuts |
You do not have to drill the studs.
Just drill the nuts and secure them to a nearby fixed point with the lock
wire.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
> Have you drilled these studs before? They are quite small, I think 1/4"
and
> I think they're also hardened steel, so they would be really difficult to
> drill. I'm sure it would work, but I would be a little leery of trying it
> without knowing it had been done with good results.
>
> KVJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of N414C
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
>
> Drill em and wire em
> Milt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
> To: "'Commander Chat'"
> Subject: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
>
>
> >
> > I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> > inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm
> talking
> > about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are two
> on
> > every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight
glues
> > and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem on
> > Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the
> engine,
> > instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar
installation.
> >
> > KVJ
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ProgSearch(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust manifold nuts |
In a message dated 4/8/03 8:37:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
> | From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 4/8/2003 1:23:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com writes:
> Does anyone know of a good prop lock and where to get it,
> Thanks,
> Victor
Winer Aviation in Youngstown OH ahd a great one and they work on Commanders.
330-856-5000. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust manifold nuts |
In a message dated 4/8/2003 1:55:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kerry(at)kvelectric.com writes:
> .com>
>
> I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs
Double nuts. Install the correct lock nut and tehen a simple plain nut on
top. My 985 did the sme thing, fixed it. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust manifold nuts |
All,
And treat yourself to one of the lockwire drilling jigs, it will save a lot
of time and cursing in broken drills.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
>
>Drill em and wire em
>Milt
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
>To: "'Commander Chat'"
>Subject: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
>
>
> >
> > I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> > inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm
>talking
> > about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are two
>on
> > every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight glues
> > and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem on
> > Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the
>engine,
> > instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar installation.
> >
> > KVJ
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 04/08/03 13:23:15 Pacific Daylight Time,
vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com writes:
> Does anyone know of a good prop lock and where to get it,
Victor,
Check Sporty's Pilot Shop catalog.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust manifold nuts |
Are your exhaust studs coarse or fine threads? If they are coarse, this
could be part of your problem. Have you tried brass nuts for exhaust
systems?
Gary @ Commander-Aero
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
> Have you drilled these studs before? They are quite small, I think 1/4"
and
> I think they're also hardened steel, so they would be really difficult to
> drill. I'm sure it would work, but I would be a little leery of trying it
> without knowing it had been done with good results.
>
> KVJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of N414C
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
>
> Drill em and wire em
> Milt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
> To: "'Commander Chat'"
> Subject: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
>
>
> >
> > I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> > inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm
> talking
> > about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are two
> on
> > every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight
glues
> > and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem on
> > Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the
> engine,
> > instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar
installation.
> >
> > KVJ
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust manifold nuts |
Wouldn't drilling them compromise their strength (tensile)? Perhaps a
flatter locknut with wiring holes?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Kromer" <service@commander-aero.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
<service@commander-aero.com>
>
> Are your exhaust studs coarse or fine threads? If they are coarse, this
> could be part of your problem. Have you tried brass nuts for exhaust
> systems?
> Gary @ Commander-Aero
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
>
>
>
> >
> > Have you drilled these studs before? They are quite small, I think 1/4"
> and
> > I think they're also hardened steel, so they would be really difficult
to
> > drill. I'm sure it would work, but I would be a little leery of trying
it
> > without knowing it had been done with good results.
> >
> > KVJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of N414C
> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
> >
> >
> >
> > Drill em and wire em
> > Milt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com>
> > To: "'Commander Chat'"
> > Subject: Commander-List: Exhaust manifold nuts
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I have been having a problem with our Aerostar N69MF. Every 50 hour
> > > inspection, we find two or three nuts have fallen off the studs. I'm
> > talking
> > > about the nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the head, there are
two
> > on
> > > every cylinder, We have tried all sorts of locknuts, and lock tight
> glues
> > > and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? This may not be a problem
on
> > > Commanders, since I think the exhaust and intakes are on top of the
> > engine,
> > > instead of hanging down below it, as they do in the Aerostar
> installation.
> > >
> > > KVJ
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | COMMANDER ENGINE OIL |
Commander Drivers:
We are just completing the instillation on two newly majored IGSO 540 B1A
engines in my 680F(p) with new Lycoming jugs. Any advice or suggestions on
which oil is best now (after break-in). For years I have been using
Aeroshell X100 50 wt, with fairly good success. Keep in mind that I operate
out of HHR where an extremely cold day is 58F. I do operate in the desert
occasionally where the temp on the ground can be 105F. Any suggestions?
Thanx!
Moe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Campbell" <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com> |
| Subject: | Re: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL |
I've heard consistently that the "best" compromise between price and
performance is to be had from AeroShell 100+, becuase it is much less
expensive than 15-50 but contains the same anti-rust and anti-spalling
additives.
This assumes that one consistently warms their engines up to operating temp
before take off.
Bruce Campbell
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL
>
> Commander Drivers:
>
> We are just completing the instillation on two newly majored IGSO 540 B1A
> engines in my 680F(p) with new Lycoming jugs. Any advice or suggestions
on
> which oil is best now (after break-in). For years I have been using
> Aeroshell X100 50 wt, with fairly good success. Keep in mind that I
operate
> out of HHR where an extremely cold day is 58F. I do operate in the desert
> occasionally where the temp on the ground can be 105F. Any suggestions?
>
> Thanx!
>
> Moe
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Taliban Release Program. |
TALIBAN PRISONERS RELEASED
The Pentagon revealed today that four high-ranking Taliban prisoners
suspected of having close ties to Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda
terrorist network were released from custody early this morning.
The prisoners were captured during the furious battle at Tora Bora
in Afghanistan during December 2001 and had been held captive for CIA,
DIA and FBI intelligence debriefings for nearly thirteen months aboard
the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise (CVN-65).
The prisoners were provided $50 cash each and a white 1963 Ford
Fairlane for their return trip home to Saudi Arabia.
Navy photographers aboard the Enterprise captured the following
photo as the prisoners departed the ship.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Taliban Release Program. |
Hey, what happened to the j peg file I put on this message? I'll try it
again.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kerry
Johnson
Subject: Commander-List: Taliban Release Program.
TALIBAN PRISONERS RELEASED
The Pentagon revealed today that four high-ranking Taliban prisoners
suspected of having close ties to Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda
terrorist network were released from custody early this morning.
The prisoners were captured during the furious battle at Tora Bora
in Afghanistan during December 2001 and had been held captive for CIA,
DIA and FBI intelligence debriefings for nearly thirteen months aboard
the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise (CVN-65).
The prisoners were provided $50 cash each and a white 1963 Ford
Fairlane for their return trip home to Saudi Arabia.
Navy photographers aboard the Enterprise captured the following
photo as the prisoners departed the ship.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Taliban Release Program. |
In a message dated 04/09/03 15:41:47 Pacific Daylight Time,
kerry(at)kvelectric.com writes:
> Hey, what happened to the j peg file I put on this message? I'll try it
> again.
This list server strips them off.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL |
In a message dated 04/09/03 14:18:46 Pacific Daylight Time, MOEMILLS(at)aol.com
writes:
> We are just completing the instillation on two newly majored IGSO 540 B1A
> engines in my 680F(p) with new Lycoming jugs
Congratulations! Where did you have them majored, by the way?
Have you run this question by Morris? You will be surprized at the answer
(unless he's changed his mind in the past few years that he and I discussed
this.)
The conclusion from watching what engines made it to TBO was that the
IGSO-540 was born in an era when "straight mineral oil" was all there was and
the engines run on this really well.
For sure there have been advances in oil and metallurgy in the past 60 years,
so there's a lot of attractive alternatives.
I always operated IGSO-540s with a single weight oil and the heaviest
viscosity possible for the environment to avoid thin oil at high temps which
causes the Simmonds to go too rich on landing roll-out and taxi in.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Taliban Release Program. |
OK, then go to www . its-priceless.com/New/catchandrelease.jpg only take the
spaces out between www and . and its.
Since you also can't link anything through the server.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Taliban Release Program.
In a message dated 04/09/03 15:41:47 Pacific Daylight Time,
kerry(at)kvelectric.com writes:
> Hey, what happened to the j peg file I put on this message? I'll try it
> again.
This list server strips them off.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Martini Luc J.R." <martini(at)foxinternet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL |
You are wondering about where to get a GSO-540 type engine OVH & conversely
where not.
WHERE:
OKANAGEN AERO ENGINE, Kolowna B.C. (Canada) (250-765-9718) The difference
in the exchange rate makes for a very nice reduction in the cost of OVH..
which is mostly labor. And, they do good work.
WHERE NOT: PACIFIC CONTINENTAL ENGINES.. Van Nuys, CA. These guys
screwed me over royally.. estimate of a REPAIR went from $6,000 to $24,000
(and I supplied the Cylinders) after they got hold of $5000 in deposit
(which I still haven't been reimbursed eventhough I pulled the engine out of
their shop). And they had my engine sitting around for 6 months before they
got around to sending the first written estimate. And.. they screwed up
what little work they did do. and provided NO DOCUMENTATION of their work.
Luc Martini
.
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL
>
> In a message dated 04/09/03 14:18:46 Pacific Daylight Time,
MOEMILLS(at)aol.com
> writes:
>
>
> > We are just completing the instillation on two newly majored IGSO 540
B1A
> > engines in my 680F(p) with new Lycoming jugs
>
> Congratulations! Where did you have them majored, by the way?
>
> Have you run this question by Morris? You will be surprized at the answer
> (unless he's changed his mind in the past few years that he and I
discussed
> this.)
>
> The conclusion from watching what engines made it to TBO was that the
> IGSO-540 was born in an era when "straight mineral oil" was all there was
and
> the engines run on this really well.
>
> For sure there have been advances in oil and metallurgy in the past 60
years,
> so there's a lot of attractive alternatives.
>
> I always operated IGSO-540s with a single weight oil and the heaviest
> viscosity possible for the environment to avoid thin oil at high temps
which
> causes the Simmonds to go too rich on landing roll-out and taxi in.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL |
I strongly agree with you about running thick oil due to the Simmonds
richness problem. As my old engines got to be high time, I started using 60
wt. and it seemed to help. I never go "off idle" (1,300 engine RPM) until
the oil temp is over 100 degrees.
The new engines were done by Performance Aero, Brackett Field, LaVerne, Ca.
Ron has a really first class shop with many years of experience. He does
engines for acrobatic planes, and air racers (Reno Lancair types), which are
non certified. There is an article about his shop and engine stroker kits in
the April 2003 issue of Custom Planes magazine.
While we are "shop bashing," another shop to avoid is Linn's Aircraft engines
at the El Monte, CA. airport, unless, they have changed drastically in the
last few years. We sent two very low time Cont. engines over for inspection
after a gear up. They supposedly replaced about everything in the engines,
conveniently lost all of my old parts before I could get there to have a look
(about one hour).
Moe
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS....
Welcome two new members the TCFG First is Jim Carroll of
Issaquah Washington (Seattle, sort of) Jim flies a 182 but is looking to own
a commander someday (By the way, last year or so we had three no owners
become Commander owners, Yea!!)
Next is Paul Seales form Los Fresno TX He owns a 680FP. I had the
opportunity to meet Paul at the Commander U. It was great that Moe Mills was
also there so they could talk "Skydrollese" together.
Welcome to both of you. Hope all is well in Commanderland. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | COMMANDER ENGINE OIL |
For what it's worth, I have flown Continental TSIO 520s for about 1200 hours
and TIO541, & IO540s for about 1500 hours and had much more trouble and oil
consumption using multi weight oils than when I've used straight weight.
I've tried Mobil Synthetic, Aero Shell 15-50 and Phillips 15-50 and I don't
like any of em. Our IA mechanic has a fit because I won't allow Aero shell
15-50 to be used in our Aerostar or 210, but I don't care, I've used it
before and it blows through the breather, leaks and breaks down more than
Aero shell 100, for spring summer and fall or 80 for winter. I'm talking
about the Ashless Disprsement oil, not Mineral oil. In my humble opinion,
the Multi Weights are a marketing ploy to make money, straight weights are
just plain better and they're cheaper to boot.
KVJ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
MOEMILLS(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL
I strongly agree with you about running thick oil due to the Simmonds
richness problem. As my old engines got to be high time, I started using 60
wt. and it seemed to help. I never go "off idle" (1,300 engine RPM) until
the oil temp is over 100 degrees.
The new engines were done by Performance Aero, Brackett Field, LaVerne, Ca.
Ron has a really first class shop with many years of experience. He does
engines for acrobatic planes, and air racers (Reno Lancair types), which are
non certified. There is an article about his shop and engine stroker kits
in
the April 2003 issue of Custom Planes magazine.
While we are "shop bashing," another shop to avoid is Linn's Aircraft
engines
at the El Monte, CA. airport, unless, they have changed drastically in the
last few years. We sent two very low time Cont. engines over for inspection
after a gear up. They supposedly replaced about everything in the engines,
conveniently lost all of my old parts before I could get there to have a
look
(about one hour).
Moe
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL |
In a message dated 4/9/2003 2:18:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MOEMILLS(at)aol.com writes:
> Any suggestions?
I use Philips X-Country. I used it in the Duke and really liked it. So far
(285 hours) it has worked well in the GSO-480s. Morris K also likes the
stuff.
Just last month Richard Collins, of Flying Mag, wrote a piece on the
8K hours he has flown his TIO-520. He commented that not all his engines
made it to TBO, but all of the ones that did, were run on X-County.
There are as many opinions as there are types of oil, so.......
PS I use Aeroshell W-120 in the R-985, go figure. ;_)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL |
Hi Moe,
Aeroshell 50 weight mineral on new engines till oil consumption stabilizes,
then Aeroshell 100W - 50 weight.
Gary Commander-Aero
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: COMMANDER ENGINE OIL
>
> Commander Drivers:
>
> We are just completing the instillation on two newly majored IGSO 540 B1A
> engines in my 680F(p) with new Lycoming jugs. Any advice or suggestions
on
> which oil is best now (after break-in). For years I have been using
> Aeroshell X100 50 wt, with fairly good success. Keep in mind that I
operate
> out of HHR where an extremely cold day is 58F. I do operate in the desert
> occasionally where the temp on the ground can be 105F. Any suggestions?
>
> Thanx!
>
> Moe
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | HELLO, ANYBODY OUT THERE?? |
HI KIDS....Wow, this is a quite as I have seen this board. I am finishing
the news letter and it should be in the mail this week. I will be delivering
an iguana to his new home in triple 2 today. A short trip, bur still away
faster than driving.
Hope all is well in commanderland. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Gang,
Got home yesterday after nearly three weeks in the US.
Sincere thanks are once again due to Capt Jimbob for a most enjoyable trip from
Washougal to Scottsdale and return, for the TCAC University. Plenty of old
friends were there, and made some new ones, including Terry Holding who own a
695 here in England, but who I had never met before.
Thanks too, are due to Jeff Cousins at Twin Commander, who once more allowed me
access to their vaults, in order that further research could be made into the
Warranty Files. Thanks too to Pierre, Geoffrey and Gladys for their help.
The accident in New Zealand which Bill Hamilton refers to was a 680, serial
437-109, ZK-BWA, of Bay of Plenty Airways Ltd. This crashed on November 21st
1961 on Mount Ruapehu. The ICAO report on the accident, culled from the official
NZ Report said the Probable Cause was:
"The cause was the detachment of the starboard mainplane in flight. A
contributory cause was the decision by the pilot to fly close to the summit of
the mountain in an aircraft in which, unknown to him, the starboard wing
structure had been appreciably weakened by a combination of spar cap fractures
and fatigue cracking derived from a past incident. Severe turbulence or some
pilot manoeuvre caused the starboard propeller to strike a part of the mountain
and the resultant vibrational loads, together with the effects of violent
turbulence encountered thereafter, imposed stresses which the weakened wing
structure was incapable of withstanding."
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
|
| All,
| There was also a piston model broke up in the air in NZ, in the 60's I
| think from memory,but this was a spar failure, and all the spar problems
| and resultant AD's are well known.
| The NZ aircraft had been subject to some pretty severe operating
| conditions, although conditions on the final flight were not severe, as I
| recall, just time ran out with the spreading crack.
| Regards,
| Bill Hamilton.
|
|
| >
| >In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
| >TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
| >
| >
| > > Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
| > > of a Twin Commander?
| >
| >Recently? No.
| >
| >I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob weight
| >modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a T-Storm
| >encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston model and I'm
| >not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
| >
| >Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area. It was a
| >freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high speed descent.
| >This happened about 5-6 years ago.
| >
| >A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same arrival
| >route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not and pulled
| >the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ... hauling ass. This
| >is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off the red
| >line.
| >
| >Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over the Reno,
| >Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the Turbo
| >Commander (and 685).
| >
| >Anyone see a trend here?
| >
| >Wing Commander Gordon
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Howard Windham" <bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | HELLO, ANYBODY OUT THERE?? |
Jim, I suggest Hooter's girls surrounding a commander will stir the
interest and get the group talking again
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Subject: Commander-List: HELLO, ANYBODY OUT THERE??
HI KIDS....Wow, this is a quite as I have seen this board. I am
finishing
the news letter and it should be in the mail this week. I will be
delivering
an iguana to his new home in triple 2 today. A short trip, bur still
away
faster than driving.
Hope all is well in commanderland. jb
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: HELLO, ANYBODY OUT THERE?? |
In a message dated 4/14/2003 10:16:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com writes:
> Jim, I suggest Hooter's girls surrounding a commander will stir the
> interest and get the group talking again
>
I have the Commandeer!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Glad you got home safely, Barry.
Isn't that stating the cause a little euphemistically, saying that after the
starboard prop hit the mountain it imposed stresses on the wing? Would a
perfect spar cap have saved this plane?
Surely, there must be some mistake. Wouldn't 50% of the wing be gone by the
time the prop even gets to the mountain?
I don't want to Monday-quarterback the situation, but what's the real cause
here?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
> Hi Gang,
>
> Got home yesterday after nearly three weeks in the US.
>
> Sincere thanks are once again due to Capt Jimbob for a most enjoyable trip
from
> Washougal to Scottsdale and return, for the TCAC University. Plenty of old
> friends were there, and made some new ones, including Terry Holding who
own a
> 695 here in England, but who I had never met before.
>
> Thanks too, are due to Jeff Cousins at Twin Commander, who once more
allowed me
> access to their vaults, in order that further research could be made into
the
> Warranty Files. Thanks too to Pierre, Geoffrey and Gladys for their help.
>
> The accident in New Zealand which Bill Hamilton refers to was a 680,
serial
> 437-109, ZK-BWA, of Bay of Plenty Airways Ltd. This crashed on November
21st
> 1961 on Mount Ruapehu. The ICAO report on the accident, culled from the
official
> NZ Report said the Probable Cause was:
>
> "The cause was the detachment of the starboard mainplane in flight. A
> contributory cause was the decision by the pilot to fly close to the
summit of
> the mountain in an aircraft in which, unknown to him, the starboard wing
> structure had been appreciably weakened by a combination of spar cap
fractures
> and fatigue cracking derived from a past incident. Severe turbulence or
some
> pilot manoeuvre caused the starboard propeller to strike a part of the
mountain
> and the resultant vibrational loads, together with the effects of violent
> turbulence encountered thereafter, imposed stresses which the weakened
wing
> structure was incapable of withstanding."
>
> Very Best Regards,
> Barry C.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
>
> |
> | All,
> | There was also a piston model broke up in the air in NZ, in the 60's I
> | think from memory,but this was a spar failure, and all the spar problems
> | and resultant AD's are well known.
> | The NZ aircraft had been subject to some pretty severe operating
> | conditions, although conditions on the final flight were not severe, as
I
> | recall, just time ran out with the spreading crack.
> | Regards,
> | Bill Hamilton.
> |
> |
> | >
> | >In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
> | >TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
> | >
> | >
> | > > Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
> | > > of a Twin Commander?
> | >
> | >Recently? No.
> | >
> | >I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob weight
> | >modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a T-Storm
> | >encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston model and
I'm
> | >not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
> | >
> | >Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area. It
was a
> | >freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high speed
descent.
> | >This happened about 5-6 years ago.
> | >
> | >A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same
arrival
> | >route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not and
pulled
> | >the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ... hauling ass.
This
> | >is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off the
red
> | >line.
> | >
> | >Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over the
Reno,
> | >Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the
Turbo
> | >Commander (and 685).
> | >
> | >Anyone see a trend here?
> | >
> | >Wing Commander Gordon
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
I suggest the real cause is idiot flying....
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
Glad you got home safely, Barry.
Isn't that stating the cause a little euphemistically, saying that after the
starboard prop hit the mountain it imposed stresses on the wing? Would a
perfect spar cap have saved this plane?
Surely, there must be some mistake. Wouldn't 50% of the wing be gone by the
time the prop even gets to the mountain?
I don't want to Monday-quarterback the situation, but what's the real cause
here?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
> Hi Gang,
>
> Got home yesterday after nearly three weeks in the US.
>
> Sincere thanks are once again due to Capt Jimbob for a most enjoyable trip
from
> Washougal to Scottsdale and return, for the TCAC University. Plenty of old
> friends were there, and made some new ones, including Terry Holding who
own a
> 695 here in England, but who I had never met before.
>
> Thanks too, are due to Jeff Cousins at Twin Commander, who once more
allowed me
> access to their vaults, in order that further research could be made into
the
> Warranty Files. Thanks too to Pierre, Geoffrey and Gladys for their help.
>
> The accident in New Zealand which Bill Hamilton refers to was a 680,
serial
> 437-109, ZK-BWA, of Bay of Plenty Airways Ltd. This crashed on November
21st
> 1961 on Mount Ruapehu. The ICAO report on the accident, culled from the
official
> NZ Report said the Probable Cause was:
>
> "The cause was the detachment of the starboard mainplane in flight. A
> contributory cause was the decision by the pilot to fly close to the
summit of
> the mountain in an aircraft in which, unknown to him, the starboard wing
> structure had been appreciably weakened by a combination of spar cap
fractures
> and fatigue cracking derived from a past incident. Severe turbulence or
some
> pilot manoeuvre caused the starboard propeller to strike a part of the
mountain
> and the resultant vibrational loads, together with the effects of violent
> turbulence encountered thereafter, imposed stresses which the weakened
wing
> structure was incapable of withstanding."
>
> Very Best Regards,
> Barry C.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
>
> |
> | All,
> | There was also a piston model broke up in the air in NZ, in the 60's I
> | think from memory,but this was a spar failure, and all the spar problems
> | and resultant AD's are well known.
> | The NZ aircraft had been subject to some pretty severe operating
> | conditions, although conditions on the final flight were not severe, as
I
> | recall, just time ran out with the spreading crack.
> | Regards,
> | Bill Hamilton.
> |
> |
> | >
> | >In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
> | >TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
> | >
> | >
> | > > Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
> | > > of a Twin Commander?
> | >
> | >Recently? No.
> | >
> | >I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob weight
> | >modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a T-Storm
> | >encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston model and
I'm
> | >not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
> | >
> | >Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area. It
was a
> | >freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high speed
descent.
> | >This happened about 5-6 years ago.
> | >
> | >A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same
arrival
> | >route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not and
pulled
> | >the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ... hauling ass.
This
> | >is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off the
red
> | >line.
> | >
> | >Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over the
Reno,
> | >Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the
Turbo
> | >Commander (and 685).
> | >
> | >Anyone see a trend here?
> | >
> | >Wing Commander Gordon
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Nico,
I "reprinted" exactly what was stated at the end of the report.
In actuality, the prop tip "nicked" a rocky outcrop on the rim of a crater on
the mountain top. I understand it was the pilot's practice to give his
passengers a view of the crater lake.
The aircraft continued flying, but by now the prop imbalance was imposing stress
on an already-weakened wing structure. It is possible that an adjacent portion
of the fuselage also struck part of the mountain.
Perhaps a little clearer now?
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
|
| Glad you got home safely, Barry.
|
| Isn't that stating the cause a little euphemistically, saying that after the
| starboard prop hit the mountain it imposed stresses on the wing? Would a
| perfect spar cap have saved this plane?
| Surely, there must be some mistake. Wouldn't 50% of the wing be gone by the
| time the prop even gets to the mountain?
| I don't want to Monday-quarterback the situation, but what's the real cause
| here?
|
| Nico
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
| To:
| Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
|
|
| <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
| >
| > Hi Gang,
| >
| > Got home yesterday after nearly three weeks in the US.
| >
| > Sincere thanks are once again due to Capt Jimbob for a most enjoyable trip
| from
| > Washougal to Scottsdale and return, for the TCAC University. Plenty of old
| > friends were there, and made some new ones, including Terry Holding who
| own a
| > 695 here in England, but who I had never met before.
| >
| > Thanks too, are due to Jeff Cousins at Twin Commander, who once more
| allowed me
| > access to their vaults, in order that further research could be made into
| the
| > Warranty Files. Thanks too to Pierre, Geoffrey and Gladys for their help.
| >
| > The accident in New Zealand which Bill Hamilton refers to was a 680,
| serial
| > 437-109, ZK-BWA, of Bay of Plenty Airways Ltd. This crashed on November
| 21st
| > 1961 on Mount Ruapehu. The ICAO report on the accident, culled from the
| official
| > NZ Report said the Probable Cause was:
| >
| > "The cause was the detachment of the starboard mainplane in flight. A
| > contributory cause was the decision by the pilot to fly close to the
| summit of
| > the mountain in an aircraft in which, unknown to him, the starboard wing
| > structure had been appreciably weakened by a combination of spar cap
| fractures
| > and fatigue cracking derived from a past incident. Severe turbulence or
| some
| > pilot manoeuvre caused the starboard propeller to strike a part of the
| mountain
| > and the resultant vibrational loads, together with the effects of violent
| > turbulence encountered thereafter, imposed stresses which the weakened
| wing
| > structure was incapable of withstanding."
| >
| > Very Best Regards,
| > Barry C.
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
| > To:
| > Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
| >
| >
|
| > |
| > | All,
| > | There was also a piston model broke up in the air in NZ, in the 60's I
| > | think from memory,but this was a spar failure, and all the spar problems
| > | and resultant AD's are well known.
| > | The NZ aircraft had been subject to some pretty severe operating
| > | conditions, although conditions on the final flight were not severe, as
| I
| > | recall, just time ran out with the spreading crack.
| > | Regards,
| > | Bill Hamilton.
| > |
| > |
| > | >
| > | >In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
| > | >TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > > Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
| > | > > of a Twin Commander?
| > | >
| > | >Recently? No.
| > | >
| > | >I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob weight
| > | >modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a T-Storm
| > | >encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston model and
| I'm
| > | >not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
| > | >
| > | >Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area. It
| was a
| > | >freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high speed
| descent.
| > | >This happened about 5-6 years ago.
| > | >
| > | >A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same
| arrival
| > | >route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not and
| pulled
| > | >the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ... hauling ass.
| This
| > | >is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off the
| red
| > | >line.
| > | >
| > | >Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over the
| Reno,
| > | >Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the
| Turbo
| > | >Commander (and 685).
| > | >
| > | >Anyone see a trend here?
| > | >
| > | >Wing Commander Gordon
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Stephen,
Yep! The Accidents Investigation Branch, Air Department Report No. 25/3/1192
concluded:
(g) The pilot flew across the summit of Mount Ruapehu at a height which
contravened regulation 38 of the Civil Aviation Regulations in respect of
minimum safe heights.
The Report also said that the turbulence encountered would not by itself have
caused separation of the wing, despite the existence of defects in its
structure. Nor would the propeller strike in similar isolation. (Defects here
means not in the design, but in events which had previously weakened the
structure).
Reassuringly, paragraph (k) says: As a result of this investigation the
structural integrity of the Aero Commander 680S aircraft as a type is
unquestioned.
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
|
| I suggest the real cause is idiot flying....
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: Nico van Niekerk
| To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
| Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:57 PM
| Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
|
|
|
| Glad you got home safely, Barry.
|
| Isn't that stating the cause a little euphemistically, saying that after the
| starboard prop hit the mountain it imposed stresses on the wing? Would a
| perfect spar cap have saved this plane?
| Surely, there must be some mistake. Wouldn't 50% of the wing be gone by the
| time the prop even gets to the mountain?
| I don't want to Monday-quarterback the situation, but what's the real cause
| here?
|
| Nico
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
| To:
| Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
|
|
| <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
| >
| > Hi Gang,
| >
| > Got home yesterday after nearly three weeks in the US.
| >
| > Sincere thanks are once again due to Capt Jimbob for a most enjoyable trip
| from
| > Washougal to Scottsdale and return, for the TCAC University. Plenty of old
| > friends were there, and made some new ones, including Terry Holding who
| own a
| > 695 here in England, but who I had never met before.
| >
| > Thanks too, are due to Jeff Cousins at Twin Commander, who once more
| allowed me
| > access to their vaults, in order that further research could be made into
| the
| > Warranty Files. Thanks too to Pierre, Geoffrey and Gladys for their help.
| >
| > The accident in New Zealand which Bill Hamilton refers to was a 680,
| serial
| > 437-109, ZK-BWA, of Bay of Plenty Airways Ltd. This crashed on November
| 21st
| > 1961 on Mount Ruapehu. The ICAO report on the accident, culled from the
| official
| > NZ Report said the Probable Cause was:
| >
| > "The cause was the detachment of the starboard mainplane in flight. A
| > contributory cause was the decision by the pilot to fly close to the
| summit of
| > the mountain in an aircraft in which, unknown to him, the starboard wing
| > structure had been appreciably weakened by a combination of spar cap
| fractures
| > and fatigue cracking derived from a past incident. Severe turbulence or
| some
| > pilot manoeuvre caused the starboard propeller to strike a part of the
| mountain
| > and the resultant vibrational loads, together with the effects of violent
| > turbulence encountered thereafter, imposed stresses which the weakened
| wing
| > structure was incapable of withstanding."
| >
| > Very Best Regards,
| > Barry C.
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
| > To:
| > Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
| >
| >
|
| > |
| > | All,
| > | There was also a piston model broke up in the air in NZ, in the 60's I
| > | think from memory,but this was a spar failure, and all the spar problems
| > | and resultant AD's are well known.
| > | The NZ aircraft had been subject to some pretty severe operating
| > | conditions, although conditions on the final flight were not severe, as
| I
| > | recall, just time ran out with the spreading crack.
| > | Regards,
| > | Bill Hamilton.
| > |
| > |
| > | >
| > | >In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
| > | >TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > > Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
| > | > > of a Twin Commander?
| > | >
| > | >Recently? No.
| > | >
| > | >I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob weight
| > | >modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a T-Storm
| > | >encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston model and
| I'm
| > | >not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
| > | >
| > | >Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area. It
| was a
| > | >freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high speed
| descent.
| > | >This happened about 5-6 years ago.
| > | >
| > | >A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same
| arrival
| > | >route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not and
| pulled
| > | >the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ... hauling ass.
| This
| > | >is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off the
| red
| > | >line.
| > | >
| > | >Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over the
| Reno,
| > | >Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on the
| Turbo
| > | >Commander (and 685).
| > | >
| > | >Anyone see a trend here?
| > | >
| > | >Wing Commander Gordon
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 04/14/03 13:58:21 Pacific Daylight Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
> In actuality, the prop tip "nicked" a rocky outcrop on the rim of a crater
> on
> the mountain top. I understand it was the pilot's practice to give his
> passengers a view of the crater lake.
> The aircraft continued flying, but by now the prop imbalance was imposing
> stress
> on an already-weakened wing structure. It is possible that an adjacent
> portion
> of the fuselage also struck part of the mountain.
Sir Barry,
Thank you for your always sterling research and insights into all things
Commander.
I think I can speak for Nico and one or two (thousand) others who would
rather see this incident categorized as CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain)
and not an "in-flight breakup" which gives the impression the Aero Commander
came apart because of faulty structure.
Of course, if this had happened in the United States, the bereaved widow
would have sued the mountain -- and the builder of the airplane.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Victor Fernandez Cochon" <vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com> |
Hey gang,
Anyone have an outline of what to consider for actual operating costs for the 500
I just want to have an estimate of what it'll cost me per hour and have been working
on it but don't know if I'm missing something.
Any help appreciated,
Thanks,
Victor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
It's still an amazing thing that the prop actually struck the mountain and
the rest of the plane mostly missing it. It's not like a low-wing job with
its props swinging well below the fuselage of the plane.
I flew a Piper Colt back to the airport after striking a mountain with the
undercarraige and I still visualize the scene and how close that was. And it
was more than 30 years ago. But compared to this accident what happened to
me was nothing. Hitting the ground with the undercarriage is most of the
time part of the job description, but getting a Commander's prop to do that?
WOW.
Nico
PS. Are we sure he wasn't trying to show his pax the view inverted ala Bob
Hoover style?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
> Hi Stephen,
>
> Yep! The Accidents Investigation Branch, Air Department Report No.
25/3/1192
> concluded:
> (g) The pilot flew across the summit of Mount Ruapehu at a height which
> contravened regulation 38 of the Civil Aviation Regulations in respect of
> minimum safe heights.
>
> The Report also said that the turbulence encountered would not by itself
have
> caused separation of the wing, despite the existence of defects in its
> structure. Nor would the propeller strike in similar isolation. (Defects
here
> means not in the design, but in events which had previously weakened the
> structure).
>
> Reassuringly, paragraph (k) says: As a result of this investigation the
> structural integrity of the Aero Commander 680S aircraft as a type is
> unquestioned.
>
> Very Best Regards,
> Barry C.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
>
>
> |
> | I suggest the real cause is idiot flying....
> | ----- Original Message -----
> | From: Nico van Niekerk
> | To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> | Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:57 PM
> | Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
> |
> |
>
> |
> | Glad you got home safely, Barry.
> |
> | Isn't that stating the cause a little euphemistically, saying that
after the
> | starboard prop hit the mountain it imposed stresses on the wing? Would
a
> | perfect spar cap have saved this plane?
> | Surely, there must be some mistake. Wouldn't 50% of the wing be gone
by the
> | time the prop even gets to the mountain?
> | I don't want to Monday-quarterback the situation, but what's the real
cause
> | here?
> |
> | Nico
> |
> |
> | ----- Original Message -----
> | From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
> | To:
> | Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
> |
> |
> | <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
> | >
> | > Hi Gang,
> | >
> | > Got home yesterday after nearly three weeks in the US.
> | >
> | > Sincere thanks are once again due to Capt Jimbob for a most
enjoyable trip
> | from
> | > Washougal to Scottsdale and return, for the TCAC University. Plenty
of old
> | > friends were there, and made some new ones, including Terry Holding
who
> | own a
> | > 695 here in England, but who I had never met before.
> | >
> | > Thanks too, are due to Jeff Cousins at Twin Commander, who once more
> | allowed me
> | > access to their vaults, in order that further research could be made
into
> | the
> | > Warranty Files. Thanks too to Pierre, Geoffrey and Gladys for their
help.
> | >
> | > The accident in New Zealand which Bill Hamilton refers to was a 680,
> | serial
> | > 437-109, ZK-BWA, of Bay of Plenty Airways Ltd. This crashed on
November
> | 21st
> | > 1961 on Mount Ruapehu. The ICAO report on the accident, culled from
the
> | official
> | > NZ Report said the Probable Cause was:
> | >
> | > "The cause was the detachment of the starboard mainplane in flight.
A
> | > contributory cause was the decision by the pilot to fly close to the
> | summit of
> | > the mountain in an aircraft in which, unknown to him, the starboard
wing
> | > structure had been appreciably weakened by a combination of spar cap
> | fractures
> | > and fatigue cracking derived from a past incident. Severe turbulence
or
> | some
> | > pilot manoeuvre caused the starboard propeller to strike a part of
the
> | mountain
> | > and the resultant vibrational loads, together with the effects of
violent
> | > turbulence encountered thereafter, imposed stresses which the
weakened
> | wing
> | > structure was incapable of withstanding."
> | >
> | > Very Best Regards,
> | > Barry C.
> | >
> | >
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
> | > To:
> | > Subject: Re: Commander-List: "Breakup"
> | >
> | >
> |
> | > |
> | > | All,
> | > | There was also a piston model broke up in the air in NZ, in the
60's I
> | > | think from memory,but this was a spar failure, and all the spar
problems
> | > | and resultant AD's are well known.
> | > | The NZ aircraft had been subject to some pretty severe operating
> | > | conditions, although conditions on the final flight were not
severe, as
> | I
> | > | recall, just time ran out with the spreading crack.
> | > | Regards,
> | > | Bill Hamilton.
> | > |
> | > |
> | > | >
> | > | >In a message dated 04/01/03 10:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
> | > | >TILLMAN333(at)aol.com writes:
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | > > Do any of you in Commanderland know of a "In-flight Breakup"
> | > | > > of a Twin Commander?
> | > | >
> | > | >Recently? No.
> | > | >
> | > | >I only know of three. The first was the one that caused the bob
weight
> | > | >modification. Legend has it a fellow was recovering from a
T-Storm
> | > | >encounter and pulled the tail off. This was an early piston
model and
> | I'm
> | > | >not sure of the year, but it was 30 years ago, I think.
> | > | >
> | > | >Next was an AC-690C (model 840) on descent into the Denver area.
It
> | was a
> | > | >freighter operated out of Cheyenne, Wyoming and was on a high
speed
> | descent.
> | > | >This happened about 5-6 years ago.
> | > | >
> | > | >A United Airlines B-737 reported severe turbulence along the same
> | arrival
> | > | >route and slowed down. The pilot of the Turbo Commander did not
and
> | pulled
> | > | >the tail off. Radar plots show his ground speed to be ...
hauling ass.
> | This
> | > | >is the root cause of of the admonition to keep descent speeds off
the
> | red
> | > | >line.
> | > | >
> | > | >Next was an air ambulance flight that had a tail separation over
the
> | Reno,
> | > | >Nevada area. This one begat SB218 -- the tail beef up mod on
the
> | Turbo
> | > | >Commander (and 685).
> | > | >
> | > | >Anyone see a trend here?
> | > | >
> | > | >Wing Commander Gordon
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ronald" <pakrak(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: operating Costs |
figure 190.00 per hour
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Fernandez Cochon" <vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com>
Subject: Commander-List: operating Costs
>
> Hey gang,
> Anyone have an outline of what to consider for actual operating costs for
the 500
> I just want to have an estimate of what it'll cost me per hour and have
been working on it but don't know if I'm missing something.
> Any help appreciated,
> Thanks,
> Victor
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 4/14/2003 4:57:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
> Reassuringly, paragraph (k) says: As a result of this investigation the
> structural integrity of the Aero Commander 680S aircraft as a type is
> unquestioned
HI BARRY.
Glad you made it home. We had spoken about the 680Super ever being
officially refered to as a 680S. I have an old brochure that does in fact
refer to the new 680S. So, I guise that makes it official?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
All,
I think it is reasonable to say that the engineering investigation of this
accident did play a part in the emergence of the various ADs for various
models of Aero Commander involving wing spars.
The official accident report on this accident is controversial to this day,
as recently as last year a major article appeared in a NZ magazine,
"Pacific Wings", disputing the original report, particularly the "prop
strike scenario", and saying that the wreckage investigation showed that
the prop struck the airframe at the time of the breakup, and on the final
flight the aircraft didn't go ant where near the volcano, even though it
was clear that the aircraft had operated in an environment that would be
"severe" in terms of current design and fatigue life standards.
Interestingly enough, some spar strap modifications designed by or for the
then Aero Commander agent in Australia in the early 60's to obtain approval
for increased gross weights pretty much covered the ground for the later
spar straps. Even my relatively light weight 500A has an applicable AD for
this.
One of the contributing problems leading to the requirement for the spar
strap was a production induced problem, the extrusions that are part of the
build up of the main spar were cold bent, without any further stress
relieving heat treatment.
Does anybody have any more information on this.
>
>In a message dated 04/14/03 13:58:21 Pacific Daylight Time,
>barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
>
>
> > In actuality, the prop tip "nicked" a rocky outcrop on the rim of a crater
> > on
> > the mountain top. I understand it was the pilot's practice to give his
> > passengers a view of the crater lake.
> > The aircraft continued flying, but by now the prop imbalance was imposing
> > stress
> > on an already-weakened wing structure. It is possible that an adjacent
> > portion
> > of the fuselage also struck part of the mountain.
>
>Sir Barry,
>
>Thank you for your always sterling research and insights into all things
>Commander.
>
>I think I can speak for Nico and one or two (thousand) others who would
>rather see this incident categorized as CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain)
>and not an "in-flight breakup" which gives the impression the Aero Commander
>came apart because of faulty structure.
>
>Of course, if this had happened in the United States, the bereaved widow
>would have sued the mountain -- and the builder of the airplane.
>
>Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | NICE (SHORT) FLIGHT |
HI KIDS.
I flew triple 2 to Hillsboro this afternoon to deliver a 4"
iguana to it's new owner (great young family) Great evening to fly. Just
enough weather to make it interesting, but not to ever place the outcome in
doubt.
Flew home at night, wonderful to fly over the city at night. Made a
rough crosswind landing back at 1W1. All in all a good day in
"Commanderland" and "Iguanaland" Hope all is well in your commanderland. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Brady" <westwindaero(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Homeland Security....protecting us from terrorists?....I think not!! 2 weeks ago
on 31 MAR in the wee small hours of the morning a well planned & skillfully
executed terrorist attack took place on Chicago's lake front. The runway & many
access areas & ramps were destroyed in such a manner that repair costs would
be astronomical. This action came as quite a shock to the owners of the 17 aircraft
trapped in the tiedown area as well as workers who showed up only to find
their workplace destroyed. The mastermind of this attack is well known to the
Federal authorities but just like Saddam H. he recently won an uncontested
5th term as Grand Pooh-Bah of his Sheikdom & as a result is not only thumbing
his nose at the Fed but openly bragging about this illegal & cowardly act......He
claims he did it to protect the citizens of Chicago from terrorists....(pardon
me while I look for my barf bag )....yet for years before this attack he
has claimed he needed this airport property to provide more parkland for the people
even though the vacant & unkempt shoreline south of the airport (where many
of the people actually live) cries out for parks. Also the budget is so tight
that the existing parks are short of programs & falling into disrepair. Lord
help us if we forget to leave our nail clippers at home or miss the trash can
with our candy wrapper or ste p over the line between the out door smoking
& nonsmoking areas (in -40 F. wind chill) at ORD or MDW .....after the strip searching,
luggage tossing & general humiliation if we haven't been locked up as
suspected terrorists, we'll surely miss our flight no matter how late its departure........Yet
the grandest terrorist in the area moves freely through the
land (accompanied by his detail of bodyguards of course) no Federal Marshals....no
contingent of USMC to free the hard working over taxed citizens of their
yoke of oppression....Oh well I guess some of us are more equal than others.
Through 6 decades I have flown a variety of aircraft on a variety of missions
in & out of Meigs Field & even in some trying WX it has always been an uplifting
experience for me & my PAX....the views of one of the most beautiful shoreline/skylines
in the world seems to reach out & welcome you to this obviously
wonderous city....thanks for taking that away from the people Grand Pooh-Head
"DICK"!!....Oh! thank you too Homeland Security for protecting me from "Dickhead
terrorists like this!! Fortunately I moved to the high-desert mountains of
Nevada before this outrageous act but I weep for the friends & family I left behind
): Do I sound upset to you? Heck I've barely got the oil temps high enough
for take off..6277B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Wall" <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com> |
On April 13, AeroCommander 560A serial #285 N10RT took to the skies for the first
time in over 4 years. Over the last ten months I have redone just about everything
on the airplane including replacing every hose and o-ring in the airplane,
new fuel cells, oil bladders, new hard lines in the wheel wells, removed
all the landing gear stripped painted and resealed, new flap pulleys, new battery,
new bearings in the control surfaces, added oil filters, clevelands and
brakett airfilters. The engines are mid time and running well, the paint is decent,
the interior is decent and the panel is quite old.
Sunday evening just before sunset I rolled her out on the runway 15 at west houston
airport(IWS). Having redone the entire flap system, I elected to do a flaps
up takeoff. I wanted to test the flaps out when I had a little altitude and
airspeed, and avoid any chance of having a failure leading asymetrical flaps,
low and slow. With 4000' feet of runaway in front of me I slowly brought the
throtels up to the stops. The trusty clevelands were just barly holding the
550 hp at bay, with everything in the green I had run out of good excuses not
to fly the plane, and I reluctantly released the brakes. She eagerly raced down
the runway and obviously more excited to leave the ground than I was. Granted
she had been doing this for much longer than I have. With the ground pulling
away and out of usable runway, I lifted the gear handle, left wheel up right
wheel up.... the nose gear was still showing barber poles. Maybe just a loose
wire. I head around the pattern and in for a low pass where I get a confirmation
that the front doors are hanging down. As I turn downwind I drop the
gear and holding my breath wait to see three green. It was my lucky day. I made
another pass to confirm that the nose gear appears to be down and everything
intact. With a little luck the landing is one of my better ones and I held
the nose gear off and gently flew it onto the ground confirming it was there.
A few beers later and after a night of rest, I jack the plane and swing the gear
to find out that I had put the top bolt on the nosewheel scissor in the wrong
way and the threaded end interfered with the retract arm. The usualy result
from this mistake is the bolt getting caught and the gear not coming down, but
lucky in my case the bolt stuck out just far enough to prevent his from happening.
The most perplexing part to me is that I had swung the gear about 2 weeks
before as part of the annual inspection and everything worked just fine.
I have no recollection of having touched that bolt after that, but I guess that
I must have.
After turning the bolt around and swinging the gear. I loaded the plane up with
my tools spare parts and a duffel bag of clothes. Topped her off with fuel,
checked the oil, put my trusty girlfriend, a CFII, in the right seat and took
off to deliver the plane to California. We hoped to get to El Paso non stop,
but the winds were fighting us pretty good and we decided to land in Monahan.
The middle of no where west texas. Kermit, the airport manager, airport flight
instructor, and mechanic all rolled into one had druel running down his face
as we pulled up to the pump. As i got out of the plane he drags me over to
the hanger to show me something He opens the door to revel a 560A-HC which was
the first one to have the rayjay turbos installed on it . The serial number
was 372 or maybe 382. It was sitting at boeing field for 14 years before kermit
bought it and ferried down to Monahan. It is now in the middle a extensive
refurb. After trading a few stories we headed off to El Paso. Our destionation
was Santa Teresa, NM 5T6 just outside of El Paso. With thunderstomrs scattered
across the area we picked our way through the storms and headed north through
anthony gap and a gradual decent into 5T6. The plane is running great,
the prop governors could use a little work, the props won't stay in sync. Amazingly
there are no oil, fuel or hydraulic leaks, and after five hours the engine
cowlings are still spotless. knock on wood.
Waiting in El Paso for the weather to pass,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 4/15/2003 11:32:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cwall(at)worldflight2000.com writes:
> Waiting in El Paso for the weather to pass,
> Chris
SAID HE WAS GING TO BUY IT, BUT OBVIOSLY NEVER DID. i HOPE YOU TOLD HIM TO
JOIN THE LIST!! FLY SAFE. JB ps tHERE ARE A COUPLE OF ABAMDONDED LOOKING
t BONES PARKED BY A 707. iF YOU HAVE TIME, TAKE A LOOK AND SEE IF THEY HAVE
THE 340HP ENGINES AND BIG PROPELLERS. tHANKS. JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
Oops, I hit the wrong button. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tylor Hall" <tylor(at)winddancer.aero> |
Chris,
Great story. Glad to here another Commander has been brought back to life.
How do I get detailed photos of the Rajay's? There are several 560 owners
that want it. It is one thing to see a drawing and another to get some
photos of it.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
www.winddancer.aero
970-731-2127
He opens the door to revel a 560A-HC which was the first one to have the
rayjay turbos installed on it . The serial number was 372 or maybe 382
Waiting in El Paso for the weather to pass,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Chris,
That's a GREAT story! All that work, and the awesome reward at the end. I
know Morris would be proud! In fact, I think I'll fax this to him :-).
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Wall" <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com>
Subject: Commander-List: #285
>
> On April 13, AeroCommander 560A serial #285 N10RT took to the skies for
the first time in over 4 years. Over the last ten months I have redone just
about everything on the airplane including replacing every hose and o-ring
in the airplane, new fuel cells, oil bladders, new hard lines in the wheel
wells, removed all the landing gear stripped painted and resealed, new flap
pulleys, new battery, new bearings in the control surfaces, added oil
filters, clevelands and brakett airfilters. The engines are mid time and
running well, the paint is decent, the interior is decent and the panel is
quite old.
>
> Sunday evening just before sunset I rolled her out on the runway 15 at
west houston airport(IWS). Having redone the entire flap system, I elected
to do a flaps up takeoff. I wanted to test the flaps out when I had a
little altitude and airspeed, and avoid any chance of having a failure
leading asymetrical flaps, low and slow. With 4000' feet of runaway in front
of me I slowly brought the throtels up to the stops. The trusty clevelands
were just barly holding the 550 hp at bay, with everything in the green I
had run out of good excuses not to fly the plane, and I reluctantly released
the brakes. She eagerly raced down the runway and obviously more excited to
leave the ground than I was. Granted she had been doing this for much
longer than I have. With the ground pulling away and out of usable runway,
I lifted the gear handle, left wheel up right wheel up.... the nose gear was
still showing barber poles. Maybe just a loose wire. I head around the
pattern and in for a lo!
> w pass where I get a confirmation that the front doors are hanging down.
As I turn downwind I drop the gear and holding my breath wait to see three
green. It was my lucky day. I made another pass to confirm that the nose
gear appears to be down and everything intact. With a little luck the
landing is one of my better ones and I held the nose gear off and gently
flew it onto the ground confirming it was there.
>
> A few beers later and after a night of rest, I jack the plane and swing
the gear to find out that I had put the top bolt on the nosewheel scissor in
the wrong way and the threaded end interfered with the retract arm. The
usualy result from this mistake is the bolt getting caught and the gear not
coming down, but lucky in my case the bolt stuck out just far enough to
prevent his from happening. The most perplexing part to me is that I had
swung the gear about 2 weeks before as part of the annual inspection and
everything worked just fine. I have no recollection of having touched that
bolt after that, but I guess that I must have.
>
> After turning the bolt around and swinging the gear. I loaded the plane
up with my tools spare parts and a duffel bag of clothes. Topped her off
with fuel, checked the oil, put my trusty girlfriend, a CFII, in the right
seat and took off to deliver the plane to California. We hoped to get to El
Paso non stop, but the winds were fighting us pretty good and we decided to
land in Monahan. The middle of no where west texas. Kermit, the airport
manager, airport flight instructor, and mechanic all rolled into one had
druel running down his face as we pulled up to the pump. As i got out of
the plane he drags me over to the hanger to show me something He opens the
door to revel a 560A-HC which was the first one to have the rayjay turbos
installed on it . The serial number was 372 or maybe 382. It was sitting
at boeing field for 14 years before kermit bought it and ferried down to
Monahan. It is now in the middle a extensive refurb. After trading a few
stories we headed off!
> to El Paso. Our destionation was Santa Teresa, NM 5T6 just outside of El
Paso. With thunderstomrs scattered across the area we picked our way
through the storms and headed north through anthony gap and a gradual decent
into 5T6. The plane is running great, the prop governors could use a
little work, the props won't stay in sync. Amazingly there are no oil, fuel
or hydraulic leaks, and after five hours the engine cowlings are still
spotless. knock on wood.
>
> Waiting in El Paso for the weather to pass,
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com |
Hi all,
Well done Chris.
Am in dire need of some prop parts or complete prop for 680E. What I am
mainly after is a hub (with large flanges) A3X might be the number. also one
blade as All the other components are overhauled and ready to go. Once we
have one on we can fire the old girl up . First run since 1993.
All new hoses
All hydraulic components O/H
All fuel components O/H
Gear O/H
Prop O/H
All cylinders O/H
All engine accs (pumps,gov, start, gen, etc) O/H
All instruments O/H
The battery set up in this a/c has a box that outwardly resembles the big
square battery that all the others seem to have . It looks like a factory fit
? Will post aphoto of it.
Have a great day ,
regards ,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Great story, great flight. Congratulations!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Wall" <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com>
Subject: Commander-List: #285
>
> On April 13, AeroCommander 560A serial #285 N10RT took to the skies for
the first time in over 4 years. Over the last ten months I have redone just
about everything on the airplane including replacing every hose and o-ring
in the airplane, new fuel cells, oil bladders, new hard lines in the wheel
wells, removed all the landing gear stripped painted and resealed, new flap
pulleys, new battery, new bearings in the control surfaces, added oil
filters, clevelands and brakett airfilters. The engines are mid time and
running well, the paint is decent, the interior is decent and the panel is
quite old.
>
> Sunday evening just before sunset I rolled her out on the runway 15 at
west houston airport(IWS). Having redone the entire flap system, I elected
to do a flaps up takeoff. I wanted to test the flaps out when I had a
little altitude and airspeed, and avoid any chance of having a failure
leading asymetrical flaps, low and slow. With 4000' feet of runaway in front
of me I slowly brought the throtels up to the stops. The trusty clevelands
were just barly holding the 550 hp at bay, with everything in the green I
had run out of good excuses not to fly the plane, and I reluctantly released
the brakes. She eagerly raced down the runway and obviously more excited to
leave the ground than I was. Granted she had been doing this for much
longer than I have. With the ground pulling away and out of usable runway,
I lifted the gear handle, left wheel up right wheel up.... the nose gear was
still showing barber poles. Maybe just a loose wire. I head around the
pattern and in for a lo!
> w pass where I get a confirmation that the front doors are hanging down.
As I turn downwind I drop the gear and holding my breath wait to see three
green. It was my lucky day. I made another pass to confirm that the nose
gear appears to be down and everything intact. With a little luck the
landing is one of my better ones and I held the nose gear off and gently
flew it onto the ground confirming it was there.
>
> A few beers later and after a night of rest, I jack the plane and swing
the gear to find out that I had put the top bolt on the nosewheel scissor in
the wrong way and the threaded end interfered with the retract arm. The
usualy result from this mistake is the bolt getting caught and the gear not
coming down, but lucky in my case the bolt stuck out just far enough to
prevent his from happening. The most perplexing part to me is that I had
swung the gear about 2 weeks before as part of the annual inspection and
everything worked just fine. I have no recollection of having touched that
bolt after that, but I guess that I must have.
>
> After turning the bolt around and swinging the gear. I loaded the plane
up with my tools spare parts and a duffel bag of clothes. Topped her off
with fuel, checked the oil, put my trusty girlfriend, a CFII, in the right
seat and took off to deliver the plane to California. We hoped to get to El
Paso non stop, but the winds were fighting us pretty good and we decided to
land in Monahan. The middle of no where west texas. Kermit, the airport
manager, airport flight instructor, and mechanic all rolled into one had
druel running down his face as we pulled up to the pump. As i got out of
the plane he drags me over to the hanger to show me something He opens the
door to revel a 560A-HC which was the first one to have the rayjay turbos
installed on it . The serial number was 372 or maybe 382. It was sitting
at boeing field for 14 years before kermit bought it and ferried down to
Monahan. It is now in the middle a extensive refurb. After trading a few
stories we headed off!
> to El Paso. Our destionation was Santa Teresa, NM 5T6 just outside of El
Paso. With thunderstomrs scattered across the area we picked our way
through the storms and headed north through anthony gap and a gradual decent
into 5T6. The plane is running great, the prop governors could use a
little work, the props won't stay in sync. Amazingly there are no oil, fuel
or hydraulic leaks, and after five hours the engine cowlings are still
spotless. knock on wood.
>
> Waiting in El Paso for the weather to pass,
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: operating Costs |
Pierce Aircraft Sales figure about $257 per hour for a 500B
See their website (http://www.pierceaircraft.com/500bcosts.html)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Fernandez Cochon" <vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com>
Subject: Commander-List: operating Costs
>
> Hey gang,
> Anyone have an outline of what to consider for actual operating costs for
the 500
> I just want to have an estimate of what it'll cost me per hour and have
been working on it but don't know if I'm missing something.
> Any help appreciated,
> Thanks,
> Victor
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | GEARED ENGINE OH |
HI KIDS.
Anybody have a good shop that will do O/H on geared engines??
I am putting the finishing touches on an article about geared O/H and would
love to hear of any shops that might do them and do a good job. thanks. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
No article on geared engine O/H would be complete without:
George Czarnecki
Central Cylinder
6315 Lindbergh Dr
Omaha NE 68110
tel. 402-451-6468
fax. 402-451-3202
Central Cylinder Service, Inc. ~ Aircraft Engine Rebuilders ~
centralcylinder.com
And specifically, follow their link to their "specialties" page - geared
Lycomings:
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/18/2003 10:07:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
> No article on geared engine O/H would be complete without:
Will do!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Maxime Gou" <maximegou(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
please remove me from your list
>From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
>Reply-To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
>To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Commander-List: GEARED ENGINE OH
>Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:40:08 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 4/18/2003 10:07:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
>
> > No article on geared engine O/H would be complete without:
>
>Will do!! jb
>
>
MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous !
http://fr.ca.search.msn.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
J B
I just had Ron at Performance Aero do both of my engines. I am very
impressed with his shop, and general knowledge. I have put nine hours on one
engine and one hour on the other just yesterday. The frequent flying starts
this afternoon, so I will keep you updated.
In dealing with in the past we have found Ron to be a very honest and fair
person. His shop does many engines for acrobatic pilots, as well as Reno
racer types, so a lot of his work is for "non certified" engines. See the
April 2003 issue of "Custom Planes" for info. on his AEIO-580 stroker kits
(600 cubic inches).
The frequent flying starts this afternoon, so I should have some time on the
engines soon.
While I certainly do not wish to speak unkindly about Central Cylinder, they
rebuilt a Simmonds pump a while back ($4,000.00) and within a few hours it
had leaked so much fuel back into the crankcase, that oil pressure was lost,
and this most likely caused premature wear to the engine. It just goes to
show that we are all human, and anyone can make a mistake.
Best regards,
Moe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
I have always heard good things about Central Cylinder. They did the
overhauls on my IGSO 540's (AC680F), which are running fine at 400 hours.
However, they started leaking oil out the top of the case halves at about
150 hours (both engines), and now create a huge mess of oil blown all over
the engines, cowls, tail, etc. I have to wipe everything down after flying
for more than an hour or so to keep up with it...it's a real pain.
Apparently, they didn't get a good seal at the case halves, didn't torque
the bolts properly or ???.
Morris Kernick will try to come up with a fix at my next annual. But short
of pulling the engines and splitting the halves, I don't know what to do.
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: GEARED ENGINE OH
>
> J B
>
> I just had Ron at Performance Aero do both of my engines. I am very
> impressed with his shop, and general knowledge. I have put nine hours on
one
> engine and one hour on the other just yesterday. The frequent flying
starts
> this afternoon, so I will keep you updated.
>
> In dealing with in the past we have found Ron to be a very honest and
fair
> person. His shop does many engines for acrobatic pilots, as well as Reno
> racer types, so a lot of his work is for "non certified" engines. See the
> April 2003 issue of "Custom Planes" for info. on his AEIO-580 stroker kits
> (600 cubic inches).
>
> The frequent flying starts this afternoon, so I should have some time on
the
> engines soon.
>
> While I certainly do not wish to speak unkindly about Central Cylinder,
they
> rebuilt a Simmonds pump a while back ($4,000.00) and within a few hours it
> had leaked so much fuel back into the crankcase, that oil pressure was
lost,
> and this most likely caused premature wear to the engine. It just goes to
> show that we are all human, and anyone can make a mistake.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Moe
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/18/2003 12:10:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
maximegou(at)hotmail.com writes:
> please remove me from your list
Go to Martonics. com and you can remove yourself. Bye jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/18/2003 12:27:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MOEMILLS(at)aol.com writes:
> I just had Ron at Performance Aero do both of my engines. I am very
> impressed with his shop, and general knowledge. I have put nine hours on
> one
> engine and one hour on the other just yesterday. The frequent flying starts
>
> this afternoon, so I will keep you updated.
>
Do you have contact information for him?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/18/2003 12:38:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes:
> I have always heard good things about Central Cylinder. They did the
> overhauls on my IGSO 540's (AC680F), which are running fine at 400 hours.
> However, they started leaking oil out the top of the case halves at about
> 150 hours (both engines), and now create a huge mess of oil blown all over
> the engines, cowls, tail, etc. I have to wipe everything down after flying
> for more than an hour or so to keep up with it...it's a real pain.
> Apparently, they didn't get a good seal at the case halves, didn't torque
> the bolts properly or ???.
I will include them. Try this for you case halves. (I will never admit to
doing this, I just "heard" it works;-))
1Run engines and warm them to near operating temp.
2 .Using a wire "toothbrush" and acetone, clean the tar out of the case
split and wipe with clean cloth
3 Mix a small amount of JB weld and apply to the case split. The heat will
flow the material and make it look super smooth. It also makes the material
less viscous so it penetrates a ways into the split.
4 allow at least 24 hr before running the engines. Good of 500 - 600hr (so
I am told) It will not have any adverse effect at OH since the case cleaning
process will easily dispatch any remaining material. Repeat as nessecary.
Good luck jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
Is the JB weld from jb like a moonshine home brew?
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: GEARED ENGINE OH
>
> In a message dated 4/18/2003 12:38:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes:
>
> > I have always heard good things about Central Cylinder. They did the
> > overhauls on my IGSO 540's (AC680F), which are running fine at 400
hours.
> > However, they started leaking oil out the top of the case halves at
about
> > 150 hours (both engines), and now create a huge mess of oil blown all
over
> > the engines, cowls, tail, etc. I have to wipe everything down after
flying
> > for more than an hour or so to keep up with it...it's a real pain.
> > Apparently, they didn't get a good seal at the case halves, didn't
torque
> > the bolts properly or ???.
>
> I will include them. Try this for you case halves. (I will never admit
to
> doing this, I just "heard" it works;-))
> 1Run engines and warm them to near operating temp.
> 2 .Using a wire "toothbrush" and acetone, clean the tar out of the case
> split and wipe with clean cloth
> 3 Mix a small amount of JB weld and apply to the case split. The heat
will
> flow the material and make it look super smooth. It also makes the
material
> less viscous so it penetrates a ways into the split.
> 4 allow at least 24 hr before running the engines. Good of 500 - 600hr
(so
> I am told) It will not have any adverse effect at OH since the case
cleaning
> process will easily dispatch any remaining material. Repeat as nessecary.
> Good luck jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
Thanks JB...we'll give it a try.
RD
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: GEARED ENGINE OH
>
> In a message dated 4/18/2003 12:38:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes:
>
> > I have always heard good things about Central Cylinder. They did the
> > overhauls on my IGSO 540's (AC680F), which are running fine at 400
hours.
> > However, they started leaking oil out the top of the case halves at
about
> > 150 hours (both engines), and now create a huge mess of oil blown all
over
> > the engines, cowls, tail, etc. I have to wipe everything down after
flying
> > for more than an hour or so to keep up with it...it's a real pain.
> > Apparently, they didn't get a good seal at the case halves, didn't
torque
> > the bolts properly or ???.
>
> I will include them. Try this for you case halves. (I will never admit
to
> doing this, I just "heard" it works;-))
> 1Run engines and warm them to near operating temp.
> 2 .Using a wire "toothbrush" and acetone, clean the tar out of the case
> split and wipe with clean cloth
> 3 Mix a small amount of JB weld and apply to the case split. The heat
will
> flow the material and make it look super smooth. It also makes the
material
> less viscous so it penetrates a ways into the split.
> 4 allow at least 24 hr before running the engines. Good of 500 - 600hr
(so
> I am told) It will not have any adverse effect at OH since the case
cleaning
> process will easily dispatch any remaining material. Repeat as nessecary.
> Good luck jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
Performance Aero Engines
Bracket Airport
1935 McKinley Ave #C
Laverne, CA 91750
Phone 909.593.5008
Fax 909.593.3774
www.performanceaeroengines.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
have had several inquiries as to how our piper restoration is
progressing so I've slapped up a few pictures in case anyone is interested:
http://members.cox.net/cschuerm/
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
THANKS MOE. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/18/2003 1:49:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> Is the JB weld from jb like a moonshine home brew?
I wish I got a penny every time they sold some!! jb, or JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: pugly piper pix |
Great job, Chris.
Isn't that a '48 Buick in the background on the last pic?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Commander-List: pugly piper pix
>
> have had several inquiries as to how our piper restoration is
> progressing so I've slapped up a few pictures in case anyone is
interested:
> http://members.cox.net/cschuerm/
>
> chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: pugly piper pix |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Isn't that a '48 Buick in the background on the last pic?
Good eye. Yep, I really like old Buicks too. Hope to get to work
restoring this '48 one of these days.
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: pugly piper pix |
There were never many cars with a straight 8 and I remember as a kid how
long that engine looked. Sounded as smooth as silk.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pugly piper pix
>
>
> Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> > Isn't that a '48 Buick in the background on the last pic?
>
> Good eye. Yep, I really like old Buicks too. Hope to get to work
> restoring this '48 one of these days.
>
> chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: pugly piper pix |
Am I missing something?
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pugly piper pix
>
> There were never many cars with a straight 8 and I remember as a kid how
> long that engine looked. Sounded as smooth as silk.
> Nico
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: pugly piper pix
>
>
> >
> >
> > Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> > > Isn't that a '48 Buick in the background on the last pic?
> >
> > Good eye. Yep, I really like old Buicks too. Hope to get to work
> > restoring this '48 one of these days.
> >
> > chris
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS..
Flew triple 2 to Hoquium, WA today. Had a great trip. Only
100 miles. There is a great restaurant there with a view of the ocean. We
went over low, 1500, up the Columbia River and back direct over the
mountains. It was a great trip. Saw an old "T Bone" with a broken rudder.
It had been gust locked and during a 70mph storm it literally ripped it in
half right at the gust lock!! Ugly.
Anybody else fly this weekend?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: pugly piper pix |
Not much, bilbo, Chris just posted some pics of an apache (looks like an
aztech to me with the extra window; could be wrong though) that he's fixed
up real nice (at http://members.cox.net/cschuerm/) and I saw a '48 Buick in
the background on the last pic and I mentioned that that Buick has a
straight 8 engine that I remembered looking at as a kid.
Nothing much.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pugly piper pix
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: pugly piper pix
>
>
>
> >
> > There were never many cars with a straight 8 and I remember as a kid how
> > long that engine looked. Sounded as smooth as silk.
> > Nico
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: pugly piper pix
> >
> >
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> > > > Isn't that a '48 Buick in the background on the last pic?
> > >
> > > Good eye. Yep, I really like old Buicks too. Hope to get to work
> > > restoring this '48 one of these days.
> > >
> > > chris
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COMMANDER560(at)cs.com |
JB, I got in the air in my 195, does that count, it was great. Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
I jus wanted to wish everyone a happy Easter and remind you
that this holiday has nothing to do with bunnies or eggs. It is to celebrate
our risen savior, Jesus Christ. happy Easter to all. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HAPPE EASTER |
Amen.
And with the merits of His sacrifice we have received the righteousness that
restores in us the eternal life we have lost.
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: HAPPE EASTER
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> I jus wanted to wish everyone a happy Easter and remind
you
> that this holiday has nothing to do with bunnies or eggs. It is to
celebrate
> our risen savior, Jesus Christ. happy Easter to all. jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | GEARED ENGINE OH |
Happy Easter,
Would the J B Weld trick work on the pan gasket on my IO-470's? I have a
leak there and the engine has to be pulled to change it. I would not admit
doing it either but if it will work it may show up some day.
Jim
N444BD
-
I will include them. Try this for you case halves. (I will never admit to
doing this, I just "heard" it works;-))
1Run engines and warm them to near operating temp.
2 .Using a wire "toothbrush" and acetone, clean the tar out of the case
split and wipe with clean cloth
3 Mix a small amount of JB weld and apply to the case split. The heat will
flow the material and make it look super smooth. It also makes the material
less viscous so it penetrates a ways into the split.
4 allow at least 24 hr before running the engines. Good of 500 - 600hr
(so
I am told) It will not have any adverse effect at OH since the case
cleaning
process will easily dispatch any remaining material. Repeat as nessecary.
Good luck jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N414C" <N414C(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
Nope,
Tried it. Did not work. Pull the engine and do it right. It will be cheaper
in the long run.
Milt
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Am I missing something. |
In a message dated 4/20/2003 2:55:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Am I missing something?
>
> bilbo
>
Am I missing something?
bilbo
YEP!!!! GEARS!!!!!!!!
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/20/2003 12:57:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jtaddington(at)charter.net writes:
> Happy Easter,
> Would the J B Weld trick work on the pan gasket on my IO-470's? I have a
> leak there and the engine has to be pulled to change it. I would not admit
> doing it either but if it will work it may show up some day.
> Jim
Nope, wont work on that, sorry. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | NICO...720 MANUAL |
HI NICO.
There is a 720 maintenance manual on ebay for $15, so far
nobody has bid. Just thought you should know, jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com |
Hi all,
Dumb question .
Are the fuel cells for a 500S the same as those in a 680E ?
Regards,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
I was not able to climb into a 680FLP this weekend but I did manage to get 8
crewed search aircraft up on an exercise.
They were not looking for Easter eggs.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: NICE FLIGHT
>
> HI KIDS..
>
> Flew triple 2 to Hoquium, WA today. Had a great trip.
Only
> 100 miles. There is a great restaurant there with a view of the ocean.
We
> went over low, 1500, up the Columbia River and back direct over the
> mountains. It was a great trip. Saw an old "T Bone" with a broken
rudder.
> It had been gust locked and during a 70mph storm it literally ripped it in
> half right at the gust lock!! Ugly.
> Anybody else fly this weekend?? jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: pugly piper pix |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> Not much, bilbo, Chris just posted some pics of an apache (looks like an
> aztech to me with the extra window; could be wrong though)
Good attention to detail Nico. Actually, this is an odd model. The
true Apaches had a round rudder and an elevator. Piper dropped that
line around 1959 and started building the Aztec which had a larger
fuselage, totally different tail with a stabilator, beefed up
wings/gear/etc and six cylinder engines. I'm guessing that this
airplane might have been a marketing decision to leverage the Apache
name loyalty. In 64 or 65 they build about 100 PA-23-235 Apaches. It's
an Aztec end-to-end, but with low-compression cylinders. It's not
listed in the Apache parts or service manuals, but is covered in the
Aztec books. They just called it an Apache for some reason.
Anyway, we're on the home stretch of putting this old gal back into
factory new condition. Like the Commanders, it suffered from Hartzel
syndrom, so she's now sporting a pair of brand new MV series props.
Sure looking forward to doing some flying!
>saw a '48 Buick in
> the background on the last pic and I mentioned that that Buick has a
> straight 8 engine that I remembered looking at as a kid.
That's another "todo" project. Would you believe I bought that car off
ebay?!?! It's a nice, undamaged, not rusty texas car. Actually runs
well enought to get it on/off a trailer :-) For now, it's a hangar
ornamant though.
(have I mentioned lately how great it is to have a father who's an
absolute aircraft artist as well as incredibly generous?! You should
see the sheet metal repairs on the Piper - you can't tell there was
every any damage!)
cheers,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 4/20/2003 4:07:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
RnJThompson(at)aol.com writes:
> Are the fuel cells for a 500S the same as those in a 680E ?
HI RICHARD...YES, (and no) Of course you 680E will have the outboard tanks
that the 500S will not have. The center tank is the same p/n as are the LH -
RH aft, inboard tanks. The forward inboard tanks are a different p/n. I
suspect that the fuel injection system ties into those tanks and they have a
different nipple system?? good luck jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com> |
Hello Everyone: I am pretty new to TCFG and very new to TC's. I have emailed a
few of you and spoken to Jim. I am pretty ignorant about TC's but I would like
for as many of you who have knowledge to email me about the pros and cons of
the 680fl. Happy EasterChrist is Risen dan farmer
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 04/20/03 19:48:41 Pacific Daylight Time,
daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com writes:
> I am pretty ignorant about TC's
I may be mistaken, but I think each of us was ignorant about Twin Commanders
before we started asking questions about them.
As to your question on the pros and cons of the 680FL:
PROs
Great cabin for the money
Very close to best useful load for the money (only the Cessna 404 will beat
it, I think)
It's a Commander, which means Commander systems and handling.
I'll back up that statement by keeping the comparison in the 8000 to 9000
pound, nonpressurized piston twin, category.
That puts you in the company of the Queen Air 80 and Cessna 404.
Compare landing gear systems, fuel systems and one engine inoperative
handling and you'll discover the basis of my opinion.
CONs
The Lycoming IGSO-540 uses a Simmonds Fuel Control unit. (So does the engine
on the Queen Air 80.) The Simmonds can be tricky to "dial in" for your
operating environment if you don't have someone handy that knows this unit.
There is only one place to get the Simmonds overhauled: Omaha, Nebraska.
Finding field expertise on the IGSO-540 and Simmonds is getting harder to do;
this engine was never used on any other aircraft besides the 680-F series
Commanders.
If you can overcome the rarity of the engine and fuel control unit where you
operate, go for it!
I operated an -FL in Pago Pago. We have members outside the U.S. who operate
this engine/fuel control unit combination and seem to manage just fine -- you
just have to deal with being very "unique" -- to say it in polite terms.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: pugly piper pix |
Having anybody knowing his way around sheet metal (esp aluminum) is a
blessing. It being your dad is an extra bonus.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pugly piper pix
>
>
> Nico van Niekerk wrote:
> > Not much, bilbo, Chris just posted some pics of an apache (looks like an
> > aztech to me with the extra window; could be wrong though)
>
> Good attention to detail Nico. Actually, this is an odd model. The
> true Apaches had a round rudder and an elevator. Piper dropped that
> line around 1959 and started building the Aztec which had a larger
> fuselage, totally different tail with a stabilator, beefed up
> wings/gear/etc and six cylinder engines. I'm guessing that this
> airplane might have been a marketing decision to leverage the Apache
> name loyalty. In 64 or 65 they build about 100 PA-23-235 Apaches. It's
> an Aztec end-to-end, but with low-compression cylinders. It's not
> listed in the Apache parts or service manuals, but is covered in the
> Aztec books. They just called it an Apache for some reason.
> Anyway, we're on the home stretch of putting this old gal back into
> factory new condition. Like the Commanders, it suffered from Hartzel
> syndrom, so she's now sporting a pair of brand new MV series props.
> Sure looking forward to doing some flying!
>
>
> >saw a '48 Buick in
> > the background on the last pic and I mentioned that that Buick has a
> > straight 8 engine that I remembered looking at as a kid.
>
> That's another "todo" project. Would you believe I bought that car off
> ebay?!?! It's a nice, undamaged, not rusty texas car. Actually runs
> well enought to get it on/off a trailer :-) For now, it's a hangar
> ornamant though.
>
> (have I mentioned lately how great it is to have a father who's an
> absolute aircraft artist as well as incredibly generous?! You should
> see the sheet metal repairs on the Piper - you can't tell there was
> every any damage!)
>
>
> cheers,
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
Good morning Jim,
Central Cylinder out in Nebraska does an excellent job on geared engines.
Talk to Dan Czarnecki
Phone - 402-451-6468
Gary - Commander Aero
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: GEARED ENGINE OH
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> Anybody have a good shop that will do O/H on geared
engines??
> I am putting the finishing touches on an article about geared O/H and
would
> love to hear of any shops that might do them and do a good job. thanks.
jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ricardo A. Otaola" <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve> |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
Columbia Aircraft services, was recommended by lycoming. He has done two
engines for me. One was not great, and had to take it down within 25 hours
because a pin slipped out of the piston, and started to grind it and hence a
lot of particles traveled the engine. Scott took the engine again, cleaned
it and 100 hrs later, and I have just overhauled all six cilynders, and they
are only 150m hrs since factory new..
On the other hand, the other engine has 150 hrs, and has done perfectly.
The first engine, Scott has give unlimited support. He himself is looking
into the causes of wear on that first engine. His support, warranties, and
no excuses, has convinced me to send my third engine for overhaul with him.
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: GEARED ENGINE OH
>
>
> Performance Aero Engines
> Bracket Airport
> 1935 McKinley Ave #C
> Laverne, CA 91750
> Phone 909.593.5008
> Fax 909.593.3774
> www.performanceaeroengines.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
Flew to Las Vegas and back with the new engines, so far everything is really
sweet.
Moe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 4/21/2003 7:04:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
MOEMILLS(at)aol.com writes:
> Flew to Las Vegas and back with the new engines, so far everything is really
>
> sweet.
>
> Moe
Great!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/21/2003 4:43:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
service@commander-aero.com writes:
> Good morning Jim,
> Central Cylinder out in Nebraska does an excellent job on geared engines.
> Talk to Dan Czarnecki
> Phone - 402-451-6468
> Gary - Commander Aero
>
Thanks Gary, I will include them. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/21/2003 6:27:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
otayca(at)telcel.net.ve writes:
> has convinced me to send my third engine for overhaul with him
THANKS!! Do you have his contact information?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ricardo A. Otaola" <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve> |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
Columbia Aircraft Services
(570) 784-3070
Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: GEARED ENGINE OH
>
> In a message dated 4/21/2003 6:27:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> otayca(at)telcel.net.ve writes:
>
> > has convinced me to send my third engine for overhaul with him
>
> THANKS!! Do you have his contact information?? jb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GEARED ENGINE OH |
In a message dated 4/21/2003 8:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
otayca(at)telcel.net.ve writes:
> Columbia Aircraft Services
> (570) 784-3070
> Scott
>
Thanks. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Great way to start your day! |
HI KIDS.
I was sitting in the hot tub early this morning, as I do
every a.m., and low a behold, here comes a 500 series Commander. He was low,
just below the overcast headed SW. I thought he might stop at Troutdale, be
he boogied on. Great to see one fly by. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
wrote:
> His support, warranties, and
> no excuses, has convinced me to send my third engine for overhaul with
> him.
Just exactly what model do you fly?!?!? I didn't know Ted Smith
designed a Tri-Motor? :)-
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ricardo A. Otaola" <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve> |
Well...... I do have a spare engine, I guess you dont know much about
commanders huh?? They run on two engines, and they run on one as well!!
Best wishes!!!
PS: If anyone needs an spare I can sell mine, IGSO-540-B1A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Commander-List: 3 engines?
>
>
> On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
> wrote:
>
> > His support, warranties, and
> > no excuses, has convinced me to send my third engine for overhaul with
> > him.
>
> Just exactly what model do you fly?!?!? I didn't know Ted Smith
> designed a Tri-Motor? :)-
>
> Barry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Well, some folks do have balls, dont' you think? That was funny Ricardo.
Well said.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo A. Otaola" <otayca(at)telcel.net.ve>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 3 engines?
>
> Well...... I do have a spare engine, I guess you dont know much about
> commanders huh?? They run on two engines, and they run on one as well!!
>
> Best wishes!!!
>
> PS: If anyone needs an spare I can sell mine, IGSO-540-B1A
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: 3 engines?
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server
> > wrote:
> >
> > > His support, warranties, and
> > > no excuses, has convinced me to send my third engine for overhaul with
> > > him.
> >
> > Just exactly what model do you fly?!?!? I didn't know Ted Smith
> > designed a Tri-Motor? :)-
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
Had a great day in triple 2. A close friend asked me to look
for a Cessna product that the owner has forgotten to make the payments on. I
started by looking in the close spots and then widened the search using the
airplane. With a couple of buds in tow, and a real low power setting, 25 X
2500, we flew over about a dozen Oregon airports. We landed at Mcminville,
after shooting a practice ILS approach, got a car and had a great lunch.
Then, back to work!! We landed at Hillsboro, Aurora and finally home. We
didn't find it but sure had a great day looking. Maybe next time. Hope your
day was a good one as well. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Campbell" <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com> |
A small, simple cover has solved my leak problem. I had to make it, but it
seems to do the job. There's a 2"x3" hole under the leading edge of the
rudder, and it is essentally open to the sky. Covering it (with a suitable
"REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" streamer) has stoped the constnt leaks in the back
(the stringers were transporting the water into the baggage compartment).
There is a small seep in the cabin, but its clear that's from the wing root
fairing. A little proseal should take care of it easily.
Do other planes besides the 520 have that hole under the rudder? It is
apparently for the trim teleflex, and according to the parts manual seems to
have just been left open......No rubber seal or anything.
Happy to share the design of the cover.
Bruce Campbell
N4186B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Victor Fernandez Cochon" <vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com> |
Hello,
Anyone knows of a good shop where I can O/H a hyd. Pump near the Florida area?
I want to O/H the R.E. Pump before it is installed.
How much do they go for more or less?
Thanks,
Victor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Bendix Fuel Flow Gages |
Fellow Commander Drivers:
The Bendix fuel flow Gage, and both transducers have just been completely
rebuilt in my 680F(p) with IGSO540B1A engines. This includes a new inverter.
While in cruse they seem to be accurate. When the engine RPM and MFD
pressure is set at 65% power, and the fuel flow is set at 65% power, the EGT
appears to be very close to peak. My question concerns their behavior at
very low power settings. They seem to be quite a bit off then. Also when
the engines are shut off and the master switch is shut off the two needles on
the gage do not ruturn to the same place (about 3/8" apart at the tips).
Keeping in mind the old saying "DC dies and AC lies, I am wondering if this
is normal?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Moe Mills
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
Commanderland:
Please advise if you know who was flying Commander N243M. AC 560F
One fatality.
Also,
the State of South Carolina lost a 500S after T/O.
Fuel Contamination?
Thanks,
Gary Tillman
PS. this data supplied by NTSB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
Here's the registration info.
N243M
Serial Number: 295
Registered Owner: NEASHAM RICHARD D
City: TUCSON
State: AZ
Zip: 85718
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
TILLMAN333(at)aol.com
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
Commanderland:
Please advise if you know who was flying Commander N243M. AC 560F
One fatality.
Also,
the State of South Carolina lost a 500S after T/O.
Fuel Contamination?
Thanks,
Gary Tillman
PS. this data supplied by NTSB
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
CommanderLand,
If the Commander which crashed near Tucson was N243M, then it's a Commander
200D, not a twin. If it was a Model 560, then the 'N' number is wrong.
The State of Carolina's 500S was that rather nice one we saw at West Columbia at
last year's Fly-In, N19WL, 500S-3160, the first Grand Renaissance Shrike.
So far, it's been a bad month.
Barry C.
CommanderLand (UK) Rep.
----- Original Message -----
From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
|
| Commanderland:
| Please advise if you know who was flying Commander N243M. AC 560F
| One fatality.
| Also,
| the State of South Carolina lost a 500S after T/O.
| Fuel Contamination?
| Thanks,
| Gary Tillman
| PS. this data supplied by NTSB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
Barry,
I think, if it's s/n 295, that would make it a 560A(HC), no?
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
> CommanderLand,
>
> If the Commander which crashed near Tucson was N243M, then it's a
Commander
> 200D, not a twin. If it was a Model 560, then the 'N' number is wrong.
>
> The State of Carolina's 500S was that rather nice one we saw at West
Columbia at
> last year's Fly-In, N19WL, 500S-3160, the first Grand Renaissance Shrike.
>
> So far, it's been a bad month.
>
> Barry C.
> CommanderLand (UK) Rep.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
>
>
> |
> | Commanderland:
> | Please advise if you know who was flying Commander N243M. AC 560F
> | One fatality.
> | Also,
> | the State of South Carolina lost a 500S after T/O.
> | Fuel Contamination?
> | Thanks,
> | Gary Tillman
> | PS. this data supplied by NTSB
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
Hi John,
No, serial 295 is an 'ordinary' 560A, with 275h.p. engines (GO-480-D1A).
Last I heard of it (June 1995), it was still in the Philippines, as RP-C644,
having been there for just over 40 years.
Best Regards,
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
|
| Barry,
|
| I think, if it's s/n 295, that would make it a 560A(HC), no?
|
| /John
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
| To:
| Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
|
|
| <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
| >
| > CommanderLand,
| >
| > If the Commander which crashed near Tucson was N243M, then it's a
| Commander
| > 200D, not a twin. If it was a Model 560, then the 'N' number is wrong.
| >
| > The State of Carolina's 500S was that rather nice one we saw at West
| Columbia at
| > last year's Fly-In, N19WL, 500S-3160, the first Grand Renaissance Shrike.
| >
| > So far, it's been a bad month.
| >
| > Barry C.
| > CommanderLand (UK) Rep.
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
| > To:
| > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
| >
| >
| > |
| > | Commanderland:
| > | Please advise if you know who was flying Commander N243M. AC 560F
| > | One fatality.
| > | Also,
| > | the State of South Carolina lost a 500S after T/O.
| > | Fuel Contamination?
| > | Thanks,
| > | Gary Tillman
| > | PS. this data supplied by NTSB
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
The NTSB shows the Crash of a 560.
With the N# N243M.
Something is wrong!...
Also, SIR Barry Good to hear from you...
GT
check out the NTSB file on our links
www.flysafeinsurance.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
It sounds like fuel contamination. Glad the guys survived.
It happened to me once. I landed at a smaller airport in South Africa which
was frequented by courier planes as a fuel stop. King Airs, Merlins, AC690's
and so on were regularly on the ramp. So, my AC500 looked like it was in
need of avtur and the attendant smartly filled the tanks with kerosene while
I was taking a rental car into town. Upon my return I found the bill to be
much lower than expected also for the number of gallons pumped shown on the
receipt. If I was materially dishonest or greedy and thought it a mistake
from which I could take advantage, I would have bought some real estate off
the end of the runway that day. So, I complained that something was the
matter. After discovering the mistake, the FBO was very apologetic, shuttled
me to the main airport on the other side of town to catch an airline flight
home, drained all the kerosene out of the Commander, filled it with avgas,
drained that out again, filled it anew, took a sample and sent it to Mobil
for analysis, called me that it was OK, paid for my flight tickets round
trip, and bought me lunch. Nice end to a story, huh? Only if it were the
end.
The Department of Civil Aviation got to hear about it and the wheels of
bureaucracy started its downhill trend, by writing me a letter demanding
that I explain myself for putting the wrong fuel in the plane, which is a
violation of the CA code. With a ton of confidence I wrote back explaining
that I did my duty in terms of the Code by detecting the wrong fuel before
operating the plane, as part of the preflight inspection. But, they argued,
the code's intention is to prevent the wrong fuel from getting into the
plane in the first place. The fact that I detected it before flying is no
excuse and I merely stated the obvious in terms of the duties of the PIC,
they said. I should have supervised the fueling operation to make sure that
the correct fuel was selected. How many of us do that? It makes sense,
thinking about it in retrospect I guess, but it's just one of those things
that I took for granted that the attendants know what they are doing. But
which AC's fly on avtur and which ones on avgas, was perhaps a bit much to
ask, especially when they were refueling turbines almost exclusively at that
FBO, unless, of course, it has one fan and low wings and can be pushed
around by the pilot.
Anyway, point taken, I ate crow, wrote nice letters and they fortunately
decided not to pursue it any further.
Now it's the end of the story.
But what a fabulous FBO, don't you think? Later I planned refueling there
just to show my gratitude.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <TILLMAN333(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
>
> The NTSB shows the Crash of a 560.
> With the N# N243M.
> Something is wrong!...
> Also, SIR Barry Good to hear from you...
> GT
> check out the NTSB file on our links
>
> www.flysafeinsurance.com
>
>
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March 20, 2003 - April 24, 2003
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ay