Commander-Archive.digest.vol-az
April 24, 2003 - June 15, 2003
Try Paul Finefrock of Thunderbird Accessories, Inc
5406 N Rockwell
Bethany, OK 73008
405-789-1822
Paul overhauled two engine driven fuel pumps for me and did a super job. He
also does the hydraulic pumps. One of them was $576.00 and the other $843.00
(the case was cracked).
Kindest regards,
Bill
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Fernandez Cochon" <vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com>
Subject: Commander-List:
>
> Hello,
> Anyone knows of a good shop where I can O/H a hyd. Pump near the Florida
area?
> I want to O/H the R.E. Pump before it is installed.
> How much do they go for more or less?
> Thanks,
> Victor
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
Does this refer to the high pressure pumps used in the pressurized models?
Moe Mills
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Max and Sharon" <max2150(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Victor, I'd think twice before I sent anything to Finefrock.
Max Schuermann---Grove, Oklahoma
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Boelte" <n55bz@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List:
<n55bz@cox-internet.com>
>
> Try Paul Finefrock of Thunderbird Accessories, Inc
> 5406 N Rockwell
> Bethany, OK 73008
> 405-789-1822
>
> Paul overhauled two engine driven fuel pumps for me and did a super job.
He
> also does the hydraulic pumps. One of them was $576.00 and the other
$843.00
> (the case was cracked).
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Bill
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Fernandez Cochon" <vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List:
>
>
>
> >
> > Hello,
> > Anyone knows of a good shop where I can O/H a hyd. Pump near the Florida
> area?
> > I want to O/H the R.E. Pump before it is installed.
> > How much do they go for more or less?
> > Thanks,
> > Victor
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
>
> The Department of Civil Aviation got to hear about it and the wheels of
> bureaucracy started its downhill trend, by writing me a letter demanding
> that I explain myself for putting the wrong fuel in the plane, which is a
> violation of the CA code.
>
> Nico
>
>
Now that's so typical of the DCA in all parts of Africa. My Dad had a run
in with the DCA in Zimbabwe too - same crowd, different country, with his
Beech V35A. The FBO who did the overhaul on his prop didn't do a proper job
and to cut a long story short he had a runaway prop shortly after take-off
at Bulawayo Main. He shut down and managed a forced landing at Induna
airfield - no damage to the aircraft or anybody else, but he was hounded for
months as they seemed to think that it was his fault that the licensed
mechanic had screwed up! Mind you, they *were* after his blood as this was
after independence and he had caused quite a stir by having twin brownings
fitted to the Bonanza during the Rhodesian Bush War.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
I had such a sh.tty day so far and the image of twin brownings on a Bonanza
did the trick for me. That's exactly what one needed back then. Just to
clean the house up before landing, I guess.
I had another dance with them, which was a bit more serious. I built the
extended airforce portion of the runway at Lanseria and used to fly the 20
minutes from Wonderboom to Lanseria with my Twin Comanche, just for the fun
of it. I could have driven there much quicker and faster, but I am the
eternal sucker for flying. So one day we were laying tarmac till late in the
night, and like a real a.h. I taxied the plane right up to the construction
yard, at the far end of the runway. In the mean time a DC3 taxied up, not
suspecting any aircraft to be parked beyond where he was and so the pilot
smartly shut it down smack in the center of the taxi-way.
After a hard day's work I loaded up three of my workers whom I promised a
flight and taxied out just to find the DC3 abandoned and all facilities
nearby in darkness. So, I taxied into the rough and went around the Dakota.
I mean I am building the runway there, I know my way around the place and I
know there are no obstacles above ground that could hurt my plane. But I
didn't reckon with the obstacles below ground, such as gophers. One sucker
dug his burrow large enough for the Comanche's left main gear to sink deep
enough so that we got stuck. I applied power to see if I could pull it out,
but to no avail. So, I shut down and got out with my flashlight. Saw no
problems, had the pax get underneath the wing and with their backs pick up
the plane while I pushed the other wing and got it out that way. At that
moment a guy in an overall walked up and asked what happened. I explained
the situation and he asked if I would have any objections if he took a look
to see if I had any damage, upon which I said not at all, but I was a bit
irritated with the DC3 pilot's arrogance and wished the guy would rather let
me get going now. But I relented. So, he poked around with the flashlight in
the wheel well, and looked at this and that. After a minute or so he said it
doesn't seem as if I had any damage, we shook hands, and he left.
I took off into the night and as I cycled the gear up after takeoff, the
lights in the cockpit dimmed for a moment and then the gear circuit breaker
popped. Not to test fate, I pushed it back in and dropped the gear and left
them hanging out for the night. Now what? Well I flew back to Wonderboom and
told ATC about my little problem which set him in fright mode so he called
all the students in the circuit and other traffic in the GF back, in case I
would mess up his only runway with lights.
I cut the engines on short final (that was the first time I made a by-choice
dead stick landing) and landed without incident. Now, those folks out there
who are familiar with a Twin Comanche's landing tantrums, will know there is
hardly ever a time that you can kiss the runway with it; it's more often
than not an encounter. But that night I greased her onto the runway like a
172, without power, sounding like a glider, because there was no telling how
much bump was left in the left undercarriage. We rolled to a stop without a
problem, I started the engines and cleared the runway. Now this was an
official incident because of all the people knowing about it.
Next thing was DCA's wheels that went into motion again. It turned out that
the Code states that I could not have flown the Comanche after an incident
unless a licensed airframe engineer had inspected the plane and found it
airworthy. It also turned out that the guy in the overalls that walked up to
me was exactly that. It also turned out that, in spite of my irritation, he
saved me a lot of trouble by walking over and looking over the plane that
night, uninvited.
The Bible says, "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some
people have entertained angels without knowing it."
Nico
PS. Apparently the force of the moving plane was enough to bend the
undercarriage frame backwards far enough to prevent the wheel from
retracting into the wheel well, which caused the circuit breaker to pop.
Imagine if the force was just a bit less and the wheel could squeeze into
the well, but couldn't come out? Kissing the ground ala the Pope would have
been in order.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
>
>
> >
> > The Department of Civil Aviation got to hear about it and the wheels of
> > bureaucracy started its downhill trend, by writing me a letter demanding
> > that I explain myself for putting the wrong fuel in the plane, which is
a
> > violation of the CA code.
> >
> > Nico
> >
> >
>
>
> Now that's so typical of the DCA in all parts of Africa. My Dad had a run
> in with the DCA in Zimbabwe too - same crowd, different country, with his
> Beech V35A. The FBO who did the overhaul on his prop didn't do a proper
job
> and to cut a long story short he had a runaway prop shortly after take-off
> at Bulawayo Main. He shut down and managed a forced landing at Induna
> airfield - no damage to the aircraft or anybody else, but he was hounded
for
> months as they seemed to think that it was his fault that the licensed
> mechanic had screwed up! Mind you, they *were* after his blood as this was
> after independence and he had caused quite a stir by having twin brownings
> fitted to the Bonanza during the Rhodesian Bush War.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
>
> The Bible says, "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing
some
> people have entertained angels without knowing it."
>
> Nico
>
Isn't that the truth! The Lord moves in mysterious ways indeed. Hope your
day is better tomorrow, Nico.
I forget whether I sent you a picture of Hotel Mike - anyway, if I did,
forget this note, if I didn't, then it is on Matronics photoshare.
Regards,
Andrew.
________________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
Moe, Thunder Airmotive in Sun Valley, CA did a good job on my "big" pumps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
It's the wierdest thing, Andrew. I don't find any pics on the photoshare.
There's just a bunch of stuff from the other lists, but nothing from the
Commander list. I did not receive a pic of Hotel Mike.
Other folks also sent pics to photoshare and I cannot find them either.
Thanks
Nico
Tomorrow should be better.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Crash
>
> >
> > The Bible says, "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing
> some
> > people have entertained angels without knowing it."
> >
> > Nico
> >
>
> Isn't that the truth! The Lord moves in mysterious ways indeed. Hope your
> day is better tomorrow, Nico.
>
> I forget whether I sent you a picture of Hotel Mike - anyway, if I did,
> forget this note, if I didn't, then it is on Matronics photoshare.
>
> Regards,
> Andrew.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander Crash |
> It's the wierdest thing, Andrew. I don't find any pics on the photoshare.
> There's just a bunch of stuff from the other lists, but nothing from the
> Commander list.
Hi Nico,
Actually it is from the Beech List.
Recent Feb 22 2003 Andrew Watson Beech V35A with twin Browning
Machine Guns Beech
A lot of Rhodesian pilots had their aircraft modified and used them as part
of the Police Reserve Airwing - I remember seeing Cessna 182's and 206's
with guns firing out the back doors. Others dropped grenades out the
window - if they wanted a ground burst they put the grenade in a beer glass,
pin removed of course; the glass held handle closed. The grenade was taped
in the glass so it wouldn't fall out - when the glass hit the ground it
broke, the handle flew off and the grenade exploded.
A guy from South West Africa by the name of Max Grobelaar (spelling?) had an
unusual rig with grenades in a tube in his Cherokee 235 which Dad copied and
built for Hotel Mike. Peter Dahl from Peters Motel in Beit Bridge did the
modification to the Bonanza floor and we were able to drop 3 or 5 grenades
from the aircraft.
(Peter Dahl was also famous for restoring that Staggerwing ZS-PWD which was
originally owned by Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands. Peter sold it to
Bobby Ewing, who sold it to somebody in the US in the mid 1980's. Don't know
if you remember Peter or Bobby. The only other Staggerwing that I knew of in
SA was ZS-AJT - owned by Andrew Torr - I went to St Andrew's College in
Grahamstown with his son.)
One thing about the Rhodesians and their sanction busting efforts - we sure
used whatever we could. The Rhodesian Airforce armed Siai Marchetti
SF260's - the Genet, Cessna 337's - the Lynx, as well as some old Vampires,
Hunters, and Canberras.
Hope your day is good.
Andrew.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | accident reports |
HI KIDS.
I am trying to look back at the preliminary accident reports from last
month. Anybody know who I can find that. Thanks jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: accident reports |
Sure, go to http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/month.asp
and pick the month you want to view.
nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: accident reports
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> I am trying to look back at the preliminary accident reports from
last
> month. Anybody know who I can find that. Thanks jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JBOBSTER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Estimated Cost Of AD Compliance |
Gang
I am a Commander wannabe....some of the models I have looked at / am
interested in are subject to AD's 90-04-14 and 90-04-13.......any guesses on
the cost of compliance if no anomalies are found????
Thanks
Jim Carroll
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Estimated Cost Of AD Compliance |
In a message dated 4/27/2003 8:06:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
JBOBSTER(at)aol.com writes:
> I am a Commander wannabe....some of the models I have looked at / am
> interested in are subject to AD's 90-04-14 and 90-04-13.......any guesses
> on
> the cost of compliance if no anomalies are found????
>
HI JIM.
There are no such ADs, not for any airplane. Do you mean
94-04-13 & 15?? 13 is the SB 90C inspection that occurs every 500hr. The
cost is about $750- - $1000. If you can remove and reinstall the headliner,
about 1/2 that much. 15 is a one time inspection of the firewall to lower
spar cap clearance. It only applies to bathtub Commanders and should cost
about $1000 - $1500 to do. A rather large inspection panle must be installed
in the outboard side of each engine nacelle, requires some paint work etc.
Hope this helps jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Dominguez" <dan(at)worldflight2000.com> |
| Subject: | NTSB Search Engine |
JB-
The library has a useful tool on the Flight Group Web Site.
To find the last months report just click: MORE OPTIONS. Select the dates you want
to search and you'll find whatever you're looking for.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
There are several 685 manuals for bid on ebay. It might be a
good tome for you 685 guys to pick up a spare set?? To carry in the plane
with you?? jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS...
TCFG member George Yundt made me aware of a new SB that will
almost certainly become an AD. There have been two occurrences of separation
of the rudder cap on the 685 - 1000 series airplanes. The recent in-flight
breakup of the 690B may have been cased by this??
Most of the airplanes are equipped with a fiberglass cap, but later
models have an aluminum assembly. Both are effected. TCAC has looked at
several airplanes and found some pretty ugly stuff. Fiberglass repairs that
were poorly done, welded aluminum parts etc. This part is not just a
fairing, it is a structural part of the airplane and needs to be at it's
original strength to be safe.
For you older Commander owners, the reason you are not affected is
that your rudder is "cut out" of the fin. The 685 and up airplanes have an
aerodynamic balance tab that extends the rudder above the fin.
This is the "rea deal" guys. I have empirical data regarding the
failure of an aerodynamic balance tab on a spray plane, only 100mph. It very
nearly killed me. At 250 - 325mph the loss of this part could be
catastrophic. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND That anyone flying an effected airplane
immediately comply with this S/B and don't kid yourself. If you even THINK
it may have a problem, change it. If it looks perfect, you are good to go
and continue the part in serevice. If you want more information you can call
me or Geoffrey Pence at TCAC 360-43509797 jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Wall" <cwall(at)worldflight2000.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 04/29/03 |
Looking for a little help.
I am looking for an old revision of Cleveland drawing 50-86 in reference
to the installation of the dual caliper brakes. The current revision
says to comply with service letter 137A to eliminate breather icing
problems by putting the breather tube out the top of the airplane.
Cleveland use to have a procedure for rerouting the breather tube to
stick out the bottom of the nacelle. I am looking for any thoughts on
this installation or an older revision than revision C of the drawing
50-86.
Thanks,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Commander-List Digest Server
Subject: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 04/29/03
*
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Total Messages Posted Tue 04/29/03: 0
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
I have a Collins TDR-950 TSO Transponder with a T.C.I.
encoder. They are wired together and still within their 24 month
certification. "working when removed," looks really good. No warranty. I
removed it a couple of days ago and installed a new 2 1/4" Becker unit This
is the short unit that will fit under the throttle quadrant $650 for all.
Thought I would offer it here first. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Flight Group News |
Jim Bob:
What a great issue of the newsletter. Thanks to you and your
contributors for the articles and stories.
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Group News |
In a message dated 5/1/2003 10:40:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
billw@air-matrix.com writes:
> What a great issue of the newsletter. Thanks to you and your
> contributors for the articles and stories
Thanks!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
A vacationing penguin is driving through Arizona when he notices that the
oil-pressure light is on. He gets out to look and sees oil dripping out of
the engine. He drives to the nearest town and stops at the first gas station.
After dropping the car off, the penguin goes for a walk around town. He sees
an ice-cream shop and, being a penguin in Arizona, decides that something
cold would really hit the spot. He gets a big bowl of vanilla ice cream and
sits down to eat. Having no hands, he makes a real mess trying to eat with
his little flippers.
After finishing his ice cream, he goes back to the gas station and asks the
mechanic if he's found the problem. The mechanic looks up and says, "It
looks like you blew a seal."
"No, no," the penguin replies, "it's just ice cream."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Penguin joke |
That was really funny!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander-List: Penguin joke
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
> A vacationing penguin is driving through Arizona when he notices that the
> oil-pressure light is on. He gets out to look and sees oil dripping out of
> the engine. He drives to the nearest town and stops at the first gas
station.
>
> After dropping the car off, the penguin goes for a walk around town. He
sees
> an ice-cream shop and, being a penguin in Arizona, decides that something
> cold would really hit the spot. He gets a big bowl of vanilla ice cream
and
> sits down to eat. Having no hands, he makes a real mess trying to eat with
> his little flippers.
>
> After finishing his ice cream, he goes back to the gas station and asks
the
> mechanic if he's found the problem. The mechanic looks up and says, "It
> looks like you blew a seal."
>
> "No, no," the penguin replies, "it's just ice cream."
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Penguin joke |
That joke would work around leaky Commanders.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander-List: Penguin joke
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
> A vacationing penguin is driving through Arizona when he notices that the
> oil-pressure light is on. He gets out to look and sees oil dripping out of
> the engine. He drives to the nearest town and stops at the first gas
station.
>
> After dropping the car off, the penguin goes for a walk around town. He
sees
> an ice-cream shop and, being a penguin in Arizona, decides that something
> cold would really hit the spot. He gets a big bowl of vanilla ice cream
and
> sits down to eat. Having no hands, he makes a real mess trying to eat with
> his little flippers.
>
> After finishing his ice cream, he goes back to the gas station and asks
the
> mechanic if he's found the problem. The mechanic looks up and says, "It
> looks like you blew a seal."
>
> "No, no," the penguin replies, "it's just ice cream."
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Another Penguin joke |
Commander landed for customs clearance and officer spots two penguins on the
backseat. 'You have to take those birds to the zoo', said the officer. 'Sure
thing, officer,' replies the pilot.
The following week the same Commander lands for custom clearance from the
Bahamas. Same officer sees the same two penguins on the back seat but this
time they donned sunglasses. 'Didn't I tell you to take those birds to the
zoo?' yelled the officer. 'Sure thing, officer, and I did. This week I took
them to the beach.'
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Penguin joke
>
> That joke would work around leaky Commanders.
> Tom F.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: Penguin joke
>
>
> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
> >
> > A vacationing penguin is driving through Arizona when he notices that
the
> > oil-pressure light is on. He gets out to look and sees oil dripping out
of
> > the engine. He drives to the nearest town and stops at the first gas
> station.
> >
> > After dropping the car off, the penguin goes for a walk around town. He
> sees
> > an ice-cream shop and, being a penguin in Arizona, decides that
something
> > cold would really hit the spot. He gets a big bowl of vanilla ice cream
> and
> > sits down to eat. Having no hands, he makes a real mess trying to eat
with
> > his little flippers.
> >
> > After finishing his ice cream, he goes back to the gas station and asks
> the
> > mechanic if he's found the problem. The mechanic looks up and says, "It
> > looks like you blew a seal."
> >
> > "No, no," the penguin replies, "it's just ice cream."
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
I am removing the right engine on my 500A. Is it going to sit on it's butt
when I do??
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
Bill Bow wrote:
> I am removing the right engine on my 500A. Is it going to sit on it's butt
> when I do??
On the bathtub birds, they get a bit light on the nose, but won't fall
back. I'd assume yours will be about the same. If it's going to be
sitting outside, you'd be safer to put a tailstand under it "just in case".
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
Put a tail stand under it. If it falls on its tail it will do damage to the
bottom of the tail. I learned this the hard way from a snow storm we had
here in Denton. No need to take a chance when you can build one out of two
pieces of conduit and a big washer. Flatten the top, drill a hole the size
of a small bolt that will go through the tail skid. You can collapse it and
take it with you. I use it to push the rudder lock on when it is too high
for me to reach.
Jim
N444BD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
Schuermann
Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
Bill Bow wrote:
> I am removing the right engine on my 500A. Is it going to sit on it's
butt
> when I do??
On the bathtub birds, they get a bit light on the nose, but won't fall
back. I'd assume yours will be about the same. If it's going to be
sitting outside, you'd be safer to put a tailstand under it "just in case".
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
When my 500B sat on it's tail due to a snow storm it always gently rotated
as the snow built up, likewise when it melted it would slowly sit down on
the nose gear.
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating intentionally letting the snow sit on
the horizontal surfaces due to negative forces being applied on the
supporting structures.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: butt
>
> Put a tail stand under it. If it falls on its tail it will do damage to
the
> bottom of the tail. I learned this the hard way from a snow storm we had
> here in Denton. No need to take a chance when you can build one out of two
> pieces of conduit and a big washer. Flatten the top, drill a hole the size
> of a small bolt that will go through the tail skid. You can collapse it
and
> take it with you. I use it to push the rudder lock on when it is too high
> for me to reach.
>
> Jim
> N444BD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> Schuermann
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
>
>
> Bill Bow wrote:
> > I am removing the right engine on my 500A. Is it going to sit on it's
> butt
> > when I do??
>
> On the bathtub birds, they get a bit light on the nose, but won't fall
> back. I'd assume yours will be about the same. If it's going to be
> sitting outside, you'd be safer to put a tailstand under it "just in
case".
>
> chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
When my 500A sat on its tail from snow it hit hard enough to drive the tail
skid it to the fuselage. We don't get much snow here but it was enough.
Jim
N444BD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
When my 500B sat on it's tail due to a snow storm it always gently rotated
as the snow built up, likewise when it melted it would slowly sit down on
the nose gear.
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating intentionally letting the snow sit on
the horizontal surfaces due to negative forces being applied on the
supporting structures.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: butt
>
> Put a tail stand under it. If it falls on its tail it will do damage to
the
> bottom of the tail. I learned this the hard way from a snow storm we had
> here in Denton. No need to take a chance when you can build one out of two
> pieces of conduit and a big washer. Flatten the top, drill a hole the size
> of a small bolt that will go through the tail skid. You can collapse it
and
> take it with you. I use it to push the rudder lock on when it is too high
> for me to reach.
>
> Jim
> N444BD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> Schuermann
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
>
>
> Bill Bow wrote:
> > I am removing the right engine on my 500A. Is it going to sit on it's
> butt
> > when I do??
>
> On the bathtub birds, they get a bit light on the nose, but won't fall
> back. I'd assume yours will be about the same. If it's going to be
> sitting outside, you'd be safer to put a tailstand under it "just in
case".
>
> chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
Anybody have any dynamic reasons why an A or B would rotate differently?
Maybe I had a C of G (when loaded with my equipment) more forward because at
no time did the tail want to drop.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: butt
>
> When my 500A sat on its tail from snow it hit hard enough to drive the
tail
> skid it to the fuselage. We don't get much snow here but it was enough.
>
> Jim
> N444BD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom
> Fisher
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
>
>
>
>
> When my 500B sat on it's tail due to a snow storm it always gently rotated
> as the snow built up, likewise when it melted it would slowly sit down on
> the nose gear.
> Just to be clear, I'm not advocating intentionally letting the snow sit on
> the horizontal surfaces due to negative forces being applied on the
> supporting structures.
>
> Tom F.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: butt
>
>
>
> >
> > Put a tail stand under it. If it falls on its tail it will do damage to
> the
> > bottom of the tail. I learned this the hard way from a snow storm we had
> > here in Denton. No need to take a chance when you can build one out of
two
> > pieces of conduit and a big washer. Flatten the top, drill a hole the
size
> > of a small bolt that will go through the tail skid. You can collapse it
> and
> > take it with you. I use it to push the rudder lock on when it is too
high
> > for me to reach.
> >
> > Jim
> > N444BD
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> > Schuermann
> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Bow wrote:
> > > I am removing the right engine on my 500A. Is it going to sit on it's
> > butt
> > > when I do??
> >
> > On the bathtub birds, they get a bit light on the nose, but won't fall
> > back. I'd assume yours will be about the same. If it's going to be
> > sitting outside, you'd be safer to put a tailstand under it "just in
> case".
> >
> > chris
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
It may have been the loading on it. I think this was when I still had the
old radios in the back. It so nose heavy now I need to add some weight to
the tail.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
Anybody have any dynamic reasons why an A or B would rotate differently?
Maybe I had a C of G (when loaded with my equipment) more forward because at
no time did the tail want to drop.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: butt
>
> When my 500A sat on its tail from snow it hit hard enough to drive the
tail
> skid it to the fuselage. We don't get much snow here but it was enough.
>
> Jim
> N444BD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom
> Fisher
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
>
>
>
>
> When my 500B sat on it's tail due to a snow storm it always gently rotated
> as the snow built up, likewise when it melted it would slowly sit down on
> the nose gear.
> Just to be clear, I'm not advocating intentionally letting the snow sit on
> the horizontal surfaces due to negative forces being applied on the
> supporting structures.
>
> Tom F.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
> To:
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: butt
>
>
>
> >
> > Put a tail stand under it. If it falls on its tail it will do damage to
> the
> > bottom of the tail. I learned this the hard way from a snow storm we had
> > here in Denton. No need to take a chance when you can build one out of
two
> > pieces of conduit and a big washer. Flatten the top, drill a hole the
size
> > of a small bolt that will go through the tail skid. You can collapse it
> and
> > take it with you. I use it to push the rudder lock on when it is too
high
> > for me to reach.
> >
> > Jim
> > N444BD
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> > Schuermann
> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Bow wrote:
> > > I am removing the right engine on my 500A. Is it going to sit on it's
> > butt
> > > when I do??
> >
> > On the bathtub birds, they get a bit light on the nose, but won't fall
> > back. I'd assume yours will be about the same. If it's going to be
> > sitting outside, you'd be safer to put a tailstand under it "just in
> case".
> >
> > chris
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/05/03 19:33:17 Pacific Daylight Time,
tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
> Anybody have any dynamic reasons why an A or B would rotate differently?
> Maybe I had a C of G (when loaded with my equipment) more forward because
> at
> no time did the tail want to drop.
I'd look at the empty weight C of G. Panel mount avionics? Front door?
Low fuel load?
And of course, snow in Canada is lighter than in the U.S. because you have
metric snow.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
My C of G was quite forward, all the equipment save the O2 was removed from
the radio racks.
And snow is heavier in Vancouver because it is laded with salt from the
ocean.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: butt
>
> In a message dated 05/05/03 19:33:17 Pacific Daylight Time,
> tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
>
>
> > Anybody have any dynamic reasons why an A or B would rotate differently?
> > Maybe I had a C of G (when loaded with my equipment) more forward
because
> > at
> > no time did the tail want to drop.
>
> I'd look at the empty weight C of G. Panel mount avionics? Front door?
> Low fuel load?
>
> And of course, snow in Canada is lighter than in the U.S. because you have
> metric snow.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/05/03 23:16:14 Pacific Daylight Time,
tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
> My C of G was quite forward, all the equipment save the O2 was removed from
> the radio racks.
> And snow is heavier in Vancouver because it is laded with salt from the
> ocean.
Ahhhh. There's the answers. The C of G forward, and salt in your snow
keeps it from freezing, so the snow in Vancouver is rain and thus doesn't
collect on the horizontal stabilizer.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi One-and-All,
There's a photo up for grabs on e-bay, of a Korean National Police Commander,
'507'.
Not a particularly good shot, being stripped in a hangar for maintenance, but
needs must.......it's a pretty rare shot by an extremely good phtographer, Roger
Catarini.
Before I bid on it, I wanted to make sure nobody else on the list is 'going for
it'.
If they are...................standy by for a battle!!!!!!
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
UK CommanderLand rep.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca |
Barry,
There's another photo of an Aero Commander on e-bay, besides the one you mentioned.
Item # 2173357985
No, I won't be bidding on it.
Regards,
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Date: Friday, May 9, 2003 10:56 am
Subject: Commander-List: e-bay photo
> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
> Hi One-and-All,
>
> There's a photo up for grabs on e-bay, of a Korean National Police
> Commander,'507'.
>
> Not a particularly good shot, being stripped in a hangar for
> maintenance, but
> needs must.......it's a pretty rare shot by an extremely good
> phtographer, Roger
> Catarini.
>
> Before I bid on it, I wanted to make sure nobody else on the list
> is 'going for
> it'.
>
> If they are...................standy by for a battle!!!!!!
>
> Very Best Regards,
>
> Barry C.
> UK CommanderLand rep.
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Campbell" <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com> |
To all of the 520 and 560 drivers out there:
We're having one heck of a time getting 86B to descend down the ILS in a
dignified manner. The net is that
we are carrying 15" mp MP (props at 2600) with half flaps, and at 115 mph we
are descending at about 400 fpm, about half of what we want.
I suspct that if we flew the ILS at 90mph everything would be fine, but at
boeing field (which really has boeings operating there regularly ) such
things are just not possible. Also, if we brought the engines back to idle
I think we could do whatever, but new gearboxes would be in order before the
next flight.
We've tried with full flaps, and everything is peachy unless we had to go
around, in which case the climb rate would be quite poor until the flaps
were raised (remember, I have 560 horses...).
So... does anyone with geared engines and a short body have a recommended
procedure we can try?
Do we:
go to 3000 on the props (in which case they may windmill and stress the
gear box)
bring the power back to say, 13" ? (same concern)
fly the approach at full flaps ( if we have to go around, just deal
with it)
fly the approach at 140 mph until short final (hard on the brakes and
difficult on short runways)
Does the 560 or 560a manual have anything to say about this??????
Thanks again.
Note, she *is* flying.
Bruce Campbell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Crunkleton" <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 520 speeds, etc |
Bruce,
Use 3000 rpm and 15" with full flaps. Trust me, a go-around is NOT a
problem. Configure early and you'll have no problem. (Waay Early!)
Jim Crunkleton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: 520 speeds, etc |
You also need more than a 400 fpm descent rate if @ 115 knots to maintain a
3 degree glide slope.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Crunkleton" <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 520 speeds, etc
>
> Bruce,
> Use 3000 rpm and 15" with full flaps. Trust me, a go-around is NOT a
> problem. Configure early and you'll have no problem. (Waay Early!)
> Jim Crunkleton
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ebay - Zippo lighter |
Hi again gang,
As well as my ebay bid for the photo, I thought I'd try for the 1950's Zippo
lighter, with the Aero Commander logo on it.
I've been outbid!!
Is there someone on the list bidding against me?
If not, I'll re-bid a tad higher.
Barry C.
UK CommanderLand rep
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Dominguez" <dan(at)worldflight2000.com> |
Bruce-
When Chris and I flew our 560E around the world, we were sequenced into some quite
interesting approaches, some simmilar to BFI.
Sequencing at 160kts or 180kts before the FAF isn't uncommon and the Commander
will handle it fine, both airframe and engines.
The delicate part comes in slowing to 120kts without shock cooling the 480's or
making metal in the gearboxes. What typically worked well for us at busy airports
was to accept 'max forward speed' vectors to final and begin pulling the
power back slowly in the descent to maintain 160kts (smooth air of course).
As you approach 5mi from the FAF begin to slow even more by dropping the gear.
We used 22" 26R for cruise and as you descend, be at 14-18" 5 mi from the FAF.
No clanking will occur till around 12-13" 26R. As you get your final turn
you'll be slowing through 140kts. When you intercept the LOC you'll be at 120,
works like a charm.
As the aircraft slows through flap speeds, deploy slowly and by the FAF you can
comfortably be at 120kts with your wheels down and 1/2 flap. This works great
for precision approaches in the 560E. Crossing the FAF you'll just need one
power reduction to descend on the GS.
In regards to the small runways, you won't be doing these type of high speed approaches
into small runways sequenced between jet traffic.
You can do every approach at 90kts, 100kts, 110kts or 120kts but remember only
the times for 90/120 are published. At 120kts you'll have 30% less time to find
the lights at 200 1/2.
Crunk's right though, wheels down, flaps down and tow hitch on your 560HP commander
can still climb, assuming you're not landing with 2,000 pounds of people
on board.
Energy management, isn't that what the guy with the straw hat called it?
Hope this helps in any way.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Simmonds Fuel Calibration Units |
There are two Simmonds for sale of e bay, one is a field unit. The buy it
now price seems pretty cheap @ $376.00 & $676.00. Current bids are at
$200.00 & $225.00. Click on Parts are Acc. and Aviation, search for
Simmonds.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Simmonds Fuel Calibration Units |
I forgot to mention that if no one here is bidding, I will probably bid on
both of them, so speak up if you're bidding.
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kerry
Johnson
Subject: Commander-List: Simmonds Fuel Calibration Units
There are two Simmonds for sale of e bay, one is a field unit. The buy it
now price seems pretty cheap @ $376.00 & $676.00. Current bids are at
$200.00 & $225.00. Click on Parts are Acc. and Aviation, search for
Simmonds.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
I just got a nice note from Ted Schaal with his renewal
check. He is one of our most loyal TCFG members. I wanted to share a little
of what he is up to, it is truly inspirational. For those who don't know
Ted, he was featured some time back in the Flight Levels magazine, he fly's a
500S "Solo Lobo" with the really cool "lone Wolf" painted on it's tail.
Ted writes that he has sold his original "Solo Lobo" (The photo of the
camera installation in the last F.G.N. was his old airplane, at Aero Air in
Hillsboro OR) and bought the 3rd from the last 500S built, #3321. He really
loves his new airplane (It was purchased new by Alcoa Aluminum) He flew it
from his home in California to his winter digs in Tobago, Caribbean, as he
has done for years. He said he seldom got above 2000agl.
He said he has a new "Gal Pal" and had to ad a second wolf to the
tail!! He said they look great together.
Now all of this doesn't sound to amazing until you realize that Ted
turned 80 on March 7th! He reports that he had logged 20,236hr TT on his
birthday and plans to log at least 3000 more, in his new Shrike, by the time
he turns 90. GO GETUM TED!!!!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
What an amazing story!
I, for one, feel a lot better now knowing that I might make another couple
of years. Are there back copies of the article on Ted available somewhere?
About the Shrikes: Did they all come with the RayJay turbos or were some
normally aspirated? I saw one for sale somewhere that had normally aspirated
Mr. RPM engines. Is that a good match and how does that affect its
performance/payload? Anyone out there wishes to venture a comment?
Thanks
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: TED SCHAAL
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> I just got a nice note from Ted Schaal with his renewal
> check. He is one of our most loyal TCFG members. I wanted to share a
little
> of what he is up to, it is truly inspirational. For those who don't know
> Ted, he was featured some time back in the Flight Levels magazine, he
fly's a
> 500S "Solo Lobo" with the really cool "lone Wolf" painted on it's tail.
> Ted writes that he has sold his original "Solo Lobo" (The photo of
the
> camera installation in the last F.G.N. was his old airplane, at Aero Air
in
> Hillsboro OR) and bought the 3rd from the last 500S built, #3321. He
really
> loves his new airplane (It was purchased new by Alcoa Aluminum) He flew it
> from his home in California to his winter digs in Tobago, Caribbean, as he
> has done for years. He said he seldom got above 2000agl.
> He said he has a new "Gal Pal" and had to ad a second wolf to the
> tail!! He said they look great together.
> Now all of this doesn't sound to amazing until you realize that Ted
> turned 80 on March 7th! He reports that he had logged 20,236hr TT on his
> birthday and plans to log at least 3000 more, in his new Shrike, by the
time
> he turns 90. GO GETUM TED!!!!! jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au |
G'day Jimbob,
Thanks for sharing that truly amazing story re Ted. He is a really nice
guy!
Got the latest FGN last week here in Oz...fantastic effort as always.
Many thanks for the great efforts Jimbob and for keeping us up to date
on the goings on in Commanderland.
Long live the two wolves!
Cheers from Oz
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/12/03 15:54:05 Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> About the Shrikes: Did they all come with the RayJay turbos or were some
> normally aspirated? I saw one for sale somewhere that had normally
> aspirated
> Mr. RPM engines. Is that a good match and how does that affect its
> performance/payload? Anyone out there wishes to venture a comment?
Nico,
No -- Shrikes are normally aspirated. Turbo charging was (usually/always??)
after market.
The normally aspirated IO-720 powered Shrike you're referring to is quite an
airplane and I believe a one-off. It was at Commander-Aero's facility
several years ago and I hope Gary Kromer can shed some light on it.
Until recently, N611FA was owned by John McNulty in El Monte, California. He
parted company with it and is in N89PK, an AC-680FP now.
(John, if you're monitoring this email net, you may want to fill in some
details on the increased weights and performance.)
Dick MacCoon's MR RPM conversion with turbo charged IO-720s is available for
the Shrike and a few were done, bearing the name "Pursuit Commander."
The idea of 800 hp (sea level) on a Shrike always appealed to me, especially
without "hair dryers," as Dennis Polito calls turbos. Simplicity and power.
A rare combo.
As far as Ted Schaal goes, I had the pleasure and honor of interviewing him
for an early issue of the Flight Group News and if I can find the text file I
will send it to you.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Ted Schaal story - FG News 1999 |
Nico,
This is for you -- but Ted Schaal is such a fine specimen of an aviator, I
thought others would want to read this, too. I wrote if for the November
1999 issue of the Flight Group News.
If only I had the photos of his Shrike to go with it ...
Wing Commander Gordon
Every Aero Commander you come across has led a storied life. Each of its
owners has led a storied life as well. One of the latest members to join the
ranks of the TCFG has had a fascinating career in the air and on the ground
and we'd like to introduce you to him. Meet Ted Schaal, owner of N9U, a 1968
500S Shrike, serial number 1784, based at Watsonville, on California's
Monterey Bay.
Ted's aviation career began in 1943 when he joined the Army Air Corps. A year
later, he was General Hornsby's pilot, transporting the Brass in a C-45,
C-47, B-24 and B-25.
At the close of the war, Schaal joined PanAm in its glory days and flew C-46s
and DC-3s (C-47s) on routes to Central and South America. An opportunity
appeared in the form of a start-up air carrier named Overseas National
Airways and Ted gambled on its success to put him on the fast track back to
the left seat. The career gamble paid off.
Worldwide experience was gained in DC-3, -4, -6, and -7 types and then in
1963, after 13 years of international flying, it was time to return to Terra
Firma to spend time with his young and growing family.
Ranching and real estate on California's central coast became Schaal's next
occupation and a partnership in a Beech Bonanza satisfied his flying needs
for a while. In 1996, sadly, Ted's wife passed away and, after a year of
mourning, he realized that he had lots of life to live yet and it was time to
get himself a twin to get back to the joy of transoceanic flight and island
hopping.
The urge for a twin sent him researching the market. Not finding anything to
his liking with the run-of-the-mill light twins, he set his sights on an Aero
Commander. It was Bob Hoover's act in the Shrike that Ted remembered from air
shows in years past and a bit of Internet research turned up what was to
become his own Commander.
"A few times around the pattern and I was sold!" Schaal states. "It flew and
handled as close to a DC-3 as anything."
While N9U has some of the more popular aerodynamic upgrades (flap gap seals
and Q-tip propellers), what sets this airplane apart is the unique nose and
tail art. "Solo Lobo" was a nickname Ted adopted when he was building a
Formula One racer. That project never flew, but the spirit remained alive.
The tail art attests to Ted's admiration of the wolf as a master of its
domain while the nose art attests to his boundless enthusiasm for =E2=80=A6=20well,
tail art of another kind. (Those of you who attended the recent fly-in know
exactly what we're talking about!)
This retired Big Iron captain migrates to the Caribbean each rainy season
(thus making him a rainbird rather than a snowbird) and hops cross-country
and island-to-island by tucking in behind cold fronts en route to his choice
of island paradises, Tobago. This strategy lets him fly in CAVU with his
companion who he reports has become, "A pretty darn good co-pilot."
Although his life stands alone as inspiration, it's Schaal's philosophy that
carries an especially encouraging message.
"My wife of 47 years died in 1996, and in 1998, I made a decision that
changed the shape of my life into one of complete happiness: It began in
mid-March with the purchase of my Shrike." Ted goes on to say, "At 77, I'm
not the oldest Shrike pilot around (reference Bob Hoover), but I have the age
problem fixed. After my 77th birthday, I am subtracting a year for each
birthday thereafter and am shooting to be 52 when I turn in my ATP
Certificate #260492.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Thanks, Chief.
Those RayJays' were always a beast to control, especially at take off
because they would overboost as the mph picks up, so one would have it an
inch or two below 29" starting the takeoff roll. They were aftermarket fits
to the Twin Comanche and the Aztecs also. The introduction of turbo
normalizers surely made life easier and the cost of ownership much less.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: TED SCHAAL
>
> In a message dated 05/12/03 15:54:05 Pacific Daylight Time,
> nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
>
>
> > About the Shrikes: Did they all come with the RayJay turbos or were some
> > normally aspirated? I saw one for sale somewhere that had normally
> > aspirated
> > Mr. RPM engines. Is that a good match and how does that affect its
> > performance/payload? Anyone out there wishes to venture a comment?
>
> Nico,
>
> No -- Shrikes are normally aspirated. Turbo charging was
(usually/always??)
> after market.
>
> The normally aspirated IO-720 powered Shrike you're referring to is quite
an
> airplane and I believe a one-off. It was at Commander-Aero's facility
> several years ago and I hope Gary Kromer can shed some light on it.
>
> Until recently, N611FA was owned by John McNulty in El Monte, California.
He
> parted company with it and is in N89PK, an AC-680FP now.
>
> (John, if you're monitoring this email net, you may want to fill in some
> details on the increased weights and performance.)
>
> Dick MacCoon's MR RPM conversion with turbo charged IO-720s is available
for
> the Shrike and a few were done, bearing the name "Pursuit Commander."
>
> The idea of 800 hp (sea level) on a Shrike always appealed to me,
especially
> without "hair dryers," as Dennis Polito calls turbos. Simplicity and
power.
> A rare combo.
>
> As far as Ted Schaal goes, I had the pleasure and honor of interviewing
him
> for an early issue of the Flight Group News and if I can find the text
file I
> will send it to you.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/12/03 17:33:37 Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> Those RayJays' were always a beast to control, especially at take off
> because they would overboost as the mph picks up,
So true! My first taste of that was on a TS-601A AeroStar at Lake Tahoe.
Went zig-zagging down the runway as one (electric waste gate) closed too much
and then the other, while backing the first one off.
Now that I look back on it, I was an idiot -- but at the time, thought I had
the situation well in hand.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
I know I've been pretty quiet lately, but I thought I'd supply a bit of
info on this turbo topic that might be helpful to someone...
There are two basic types of Rayjay installations: manual wastegate
control and auto wastegate control. In the manual installations, you
just have two additional knobs (or levers depending on the
configuration) to fiddle with. Both installations are
"turbo-normalized" - ie: they are not intended to boost the MAP above
the normal 29-ish inches. A properly set up automatic wastegate
installation should be virtually transparent in operation to the pilot
except that the MAP should stay exactly where you set it with the
throttles. For example, after takeoff, you can pull back to 24-squared,
then continue to climb without ever having to touch the throttle again.
With the manual wastegate control, when you "run out of throttle" and
the MAP begins to drop while climbing, you simply move the "boost lever"
to spool up the turbos and regain lost MAP. There are two TERRIBLY
important items to remember with the manual setup: 1) make DARN sure the
boost control is OFF before takeoff, and 2) make DARN sure to reduce the
boost while decending. There has been at least one fatal Commander
accident caused by the pilot taking off with the turbos at "full blast".
Both engines totally disentigrated not far off the end of the runway.
I've spent a lot of time behind an auto-wastegate Rayjay equiped
Lycoming and absolutely LOVE the setup. The manual setup requires a bit
more attention by the pilot, but has the advantage of being virtually
bullet-proof in it's simplicity. I truely miss the hair-dryers on my
current steed and might even consider adding them when the engines come
due for overhaul.
Chris Schuermann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
In a message dated 05/12/03 17:52:43 Pacific Daylight Time, cschuerm(at)cox.net
writes:
> There are two TERRIBLY
> important items to remember with the manual setup: 1) make DARN sure the
> boost control is OFF before takeoff, and 2) make DARN sure to reduce the
> boost while decending.
Nice to hear from you, Chris!
I'm going to fiddle around with statement #2 as it pertains to operators of
the MR. RPM - FLP and FP models.
Pressurization is a by-product of turbo out-put in this conversion (as
opposed to the constant cabin supercharger of the original -FLP and -FP
configuration) and if the pilot opens the waste gates high up, the cabin will
dump.
Flying a MR RPM with manual waste gates is an art. On the way up, MAP is
increased via waste gate closure (manually done) and one the way down,
throttle is retarded to maintain cruise MAP, with waste gates being opened as
part of the final descent to landing cockpit flow.
Of course, this can get complicated on an IFR missed approach at a high
altitude airport; some boost is wanted so some degree of waste gate closure
is desired. One just has to monitor MAP on the missed.
But I guess that's what pilots are for: to figure this stuff out and adjust
accordingly.
Yes, auto waste gates are a pleasure ... but nearly every Commander I've
flown that has turbos has been manual. This is why Dick MacCoon has come up
with at rework of the RayJay turbo normalizing system.
Take a look at Tylor Hall's web site for more info.
Identifier
or www.winddancer.aero
Wing Commander Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
CloudCraft(at)aol.com wrote:
> I'm going to fiddle around with statement #2 as it pertains to operators of
> the MR. RPM - FLP and FP models.
Good points Keith. I had neglected the pressurization issue. (was
always a problem in my Turbo Viking. Kept ripping the fabric so just
had to get _tiny_ oxygen masks for the termites).
I do know that at least one Commander had the automatic controllers.
Used the exact same hardware that Bellanca (and probably many others) used.
cheers,
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
The first "Riley Rocket" was, I beleve, a turbo-added 310 Cessna. It would true
out at just under 200 (mph) on one engine. I flew one over the magnet North
Pole and up the Amazon a number of years ago. The over boost you speak of was
easily adjusted with the vernier waste-gate controllers. Great plane. Steve
C.
Thanks, Chief.
Those RayJays' were always a beast to control, especially at take off
because they would overboost as the mph picks up, so one would have it an
inch or two below 29" starting the takeoff roll. They were aftermarket fits
to the Twin Comanche and the Aztecs also. The introduction of turbo
normalizers surely made life easier and the cost of ownership much less.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: TED SCHAAL
>
> In a message dated 05/12/03 15:54:05 Pacific Daylight Time,
> nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
>
>
> > About the Shrikes: Did they all come with the RayJay turbos or were some
> > normally aspirated? I saw one for sale somewhere that had normally
> > aspirated
> > Mr. RPM engines. Is that a good match and how does that affect its
> > performance/payload? Anyone out there wishes to venture a comment?
>
> Nico,
>
> No -- Shrikes are normally aspirated. Turbo charging was
(usually/always??)
> after market.
>
> The normally aspirated IO-720 powered Shrike you're referring to is quite
an
> airplane and I believe a one-off. It was at Commander-Aero's facility
> several years ago and I hope Gary Kromer can shed some light on it.
>
> Until recently, N611FA was owned by John McNulty in El Monte, California.
He
> parted company with it and is in N89PK, an AC-680FP now.
>
> (John, if you're monitoring this email net, you may want to fill in some
> details on the increased weights and performance.)
>
> Dick MacCoon's MR RPM conversion with turbo charged IO-720s is available
for
> the Shrike and a few were done, bearing the name "Pursuit Commander."
>
> The idea of 800 hp (sea level) on a Shrike always appealed to me,
especially
> without "hair dryers," as Dennis Polito calls turbos. Simplicity and
power.
> A rare combo.
>
> As far as Ted Schaal goes, I had the pleasure and honor of interviewing
him
> for an early issue of the Flight Group News and if I can find the text
file I
> will send it to you.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tylor" <tylor(at)winddancer.aero> |
| Subject: | RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
We will have the Rajay turbo STC's here in the next few weeks.
It includes the Pipers, Cessna, Bonanzas and the Twin Commanders. Yes
Chris, I can put one on a PA-23-160.
We will be offering them in both Manual as well as automatic as we rework
each. Starting with the Twin Commanders that Dick MacCoon has already
reworked.
On the Twins, we will change from push/pull cables to electric manual system
using a rocker switch.
I am looking for the right switch and where to put it.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
www.winddancer.aero
970-731-2127
CloudCraft(at)aol.com wrote:
> I'm going to fiddle around with statement #2 as it pertains to operators
of
> the MR. RPM - FLP and FP models.
Good points Keith. I had neglected the pressurization issue. (was
always a problem in my Turbo Viking. Kept ripping the fabric so just
had to get _tiny_ oxygen masks for the termites).
I do know that at least one Commander had the automatic controllers.
Used the exact same hardware that Bellanca (and probably many others) used.
cheers,
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
I have only flown the 'knob variety' manual systems (not counting those
found on the Continentals, in the Senecas, Centurions, etc. which was a
sweet variation on the manual RayJays) which meant playing with the verniers
ad nauseum until all were in check. Ordinarily I would fly with the controls
pulled all the way out (to save the engines a bit and uncomplicate the
takeoff) and only trickle in the turbos in the climb. At high DA take offs,
I would wind the suckers up to about 27" before brake release and imagine
they were automatic.
When taking off without turbos I always mentally prepared to deal with an
engine out as a normally aspirated failure because I never tried to see what
would happen if I needed the extra power and suddenly floor the verniers.
Perhaps it would eject the cylinder heads. Perhaps it would give me a view
of the runway through the top window. Whoknows.
I have never flown the 800HP jobs - that ought to be some experience - and
turbo normalizing them big things surely sounds like a nice invention!
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Commander-List: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind
>
> I know I've been pretty quiet lately, but I thought I'd supply a bit of
> info on this turbo topic that might be helpful to someone...
>
> There are two basic types of Rayjay installations: manual wastegate
> control and auto wastegate control. In the manual installations, you
> just have two additional knobs (or levers depending on the
> configuration) to fiddle with. Both installations are
> "turbo-normalized" - ie: they are not intended to boost the MAP above
> the normal 29-ish inches. A properly set up automatic wastegate
> installation should be virtually transparent in operation to the pilot
> except that the MAP should stay exactly where you set it with the
> throttles. For example, after takeoff, you can pull back to 24-squared,
> then continue to climb without ever having to touch the throttle again.
> With the manual wastegate control, when you "run out of throttle" and
> the MAP begins to drop while climbing, you simply move the "boost lever"
> to spool up the turbos and regain lost MAP. There are two TERRIBLY
> important items to remember with the manual setup: 1) make DARN sure the
> boost control is OFF before takeoff, and 2) make DARN sure to reduce the
> boost while decending. There has been at least one fatal Commander
> accident caused by the pilot taking off with the turbos at "full blast".
> Both engines totally disentigrated not far off the end of the runway.
>
> I've spent a lot of time behind an auto-wastegate Rayjay equiped
> Lycoming and absolutely LOVE the setup. The manual setup requires a bit
> more attention by the pilot, but has the advantage of being virtually
> bullet-proof in it's simplicity. I truely miss the hair-dryers on my
> current steed and might even consider adding them when the engines come
> due for overhaul.
>
> Chris Schuermann
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
> Good points Keith. I had neglected the pressurization issue. (was
> always a problem in my Turbo Viking. Kept ripping the fabric so just
> had to get _tiny_ oxygen masks for the termites).
You know, Chris, had you switched to rubber instead of Ceconite, you could
have gone from Bellanca Viking to Bellanca Blimp while in flight.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
In a message dated 05/12/03 18:43:25 Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> I have only flown the 'knob variety' manual systems (not counting those
> found on the Continentals,
Commanders I've known and loved have had electric (rocker switches) waste
gates, or, a set of levers below the prop levers to operate the waste gates.
Verniers on a twin are hard to do in concert.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
Tylor wrote:
> Chris, I can put one on a PA-23-160.
Actually, mine's a 23-235, but yes, I'm interested
> On the Twins, we will change from push/pull cables to electric manual system
> using a rocker switch.
Sure wish I could develope a fully automatic digitally controled system
for y'all. There's SO much plumbing with the hydraulic controllers and
if the diaphrams fail, they dump oil. They also get a bit "out of
whack" with age. The electric drives you're using are an interesting
solution to that problem, but adding automatic control would be very
neat. The slick way to solve that would be to put an absolute pressure
transducer on the manifold pressure tap, then run a microprocessor
closed-loop control to the wastegates. It would be incredibly reliable
once tuned and you could even add a "HOLD MAP" button for the
pressurised guys so that they could dink with the throttles but still
keep the turbo's spooled up.
(not that I've given this any thought :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tylor" <tylor(at)winddancer.aero> |
| Subject: | RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
We can do the Pa-23-235 and 250. Different STC number.
Sounds great about the microprocessor. Dick said the same thing.
Where do I get it that is FAA/PMA approved?
Regards,
Tylor Hall
Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
www.winddancer.aero
970-731-2127
The slick way to solve that would be to put an absolute pressure
transducer on the manifold pressure tap, then run a microprocessor
closed-loop control to the wastegates. It would be incredibly reliable
once tuned and you could even add a "HOLD MAP" button for the
pressurised guys so that they could dink with the throttles but still
keep the turbo's spooled up.
(not that I've given this any thought :-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
THANKS!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ebay - Zippo lighter |
No I am not bidding but I will be arriving LHR on AA57 the 14th. We stay at the
Le Meridian right near LHR. If you will email me you phone number I will try
to get in touch with you. dan farmercommander wanna be
Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote:--> Commander-List message
posted by: "Barry Collman"
Hi again gang,
As well as my ebay bid for the photo, I thought I'd try for the 1950's Zippo
lighter, with the Aero Commander logo on it.
I've been outbid!!
Is there someone on the list bidding against me?
If not, I'll re-bid a tad higher.
Barry C.
UK CommanderLand rep
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Howard Windham" <bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
Tylor, does that mean the 560e with GO's??? Will be available in a few
weeks?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Subject: RE: Commander-List: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind
We will have the Rajay turbo STC's here in the next few weeks. It
includes the Pipers, Cessna, Bonanzas and the Twin Commanders. Yes
Chris, I can put one on a PA-23-160.
We will be offering them in both Manual as well as automatic as we
rework each. Starting with the Twin Commanders that Dick MacCoon has
already reworked. On the Twins, we will change from push/pull cables to
electric manual system using a rocker switch. I am looking for the right
switch and where to put it.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
www.winddancer.aero
970-731-2127
-->
CloudCraft(at)aol.com wrote:
> I'm going to fiddle around with statement #2 as it pertains to
> operators
of
> the MR. RPM - FLP and FP models.
Good points Keith. I had neglected the pressurization issue. (was
always a problem in my Turbo Viking. Kept ripping the fabric so just
had to get _tiny_ oxygen masks for the termites).
I do know that at least one Commander had the automatic controllers.
Used the exact same hardware that Bellanca (and probably many others)
used.
cheers,
chris
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
Tylor wrote:
> We can do the Pa-23-235 and 250. Different STC number.
I'd appreciate an estimate for that STC as well as a full new interior
(nothing exotic - just 'nice').
> Where do I get it that is FAA/PMA approved?
And that's a task that just might be almost as much effort as the actual
design, but I'm quite certain it could be done. The good thing is that
the hard stuff (the turbo itself, wastegate, actuator, etc) is already
approved. I don't know if there is a specific TSO that covers MAP
controllers, but if there is (for existing hydro-mechanical devices), it
should be easy to meet with a digital controller. If you could track
down the specific FAA folks who have certified other controlers in the
past, I'm sure they could provide guidance on what they want to see.
Most likely, they'd be primarily interested in "failure modes". I
assume that you already have a mechanical pop-off incorporated into the
induction system, so there shouldn't be much to worry about.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tylor" <tylor(at)winddancer.aero> |
| Subject: | RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
* Commander-List message posted by: "Howard Windham"
Tylor, does that mean the 560e with GO's??? Will be available in a few
weeks?
Yes, Buddy. Very Soon.
* When do you want to fly out here in June or July for us to do a fit up?
After that it will take about 60 days to get all the parts together.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
970-731-2127
*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Howard Windham" <bw_cycon(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind |
Great news, call me with details on how long etc you will need my bird..
And oh by the way where are you? Call me to discuss 616 896-6588 or
mobile at 616 437-0864. Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Subject: RE: Commander-List: RE: Hair Dryers of the RayJay kind
* Commander-List message posted by: "Howard Windham"
Tylor, does that mean the 560e with GO's??? Will be available in a few
weeks?
Yes, Buddy. Very Soon.
* When do you want to fly out here in June or July for us to do a fit
up? After that it will take about 60 days to get all the parts together.
Regards, Tylor Hall Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc. 2V1, Pagosa
Springs, CO 970-731-2127
*
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Well folks,
My annual is almost done on the 500A. The right engine has gone into the
intensive care unit of the Zypher Engine shop. In about 4 more weeks It
should be like new,,,,,I hope.
I removed the Pesco Hydraulic pump because it STILL leaks. I contacted
Aircraft Accessories of OK and explained that in August of last year I paid
them $269.00 to fix a leak. In January I had to pay another $169.00 to get
the same repair fixed, and now it was leaking again. David Dutton said he
would warrantee it. At least this time they are doing the honorable thing.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ebay - Zippo lighter |
Hi Dan!
My 'phone number at work (9:00am to 5:00pm) is 020 8897 1066, then just ask for
me. The company is called Airclaims.
I'll look forward to meeting you, and showing you around!
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Farmer" <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: ebay - Zippo lighter
|
| No I am not bidding but I will be arriving LHR on AA57 the 14th. We stay at
the Le Meridian right near LHR. If you will email me you phone number I will
try to get in touch with you. dan farmercommander wanna be
|
| Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote:--> Commander-List
message posted by: "Barry Collman"
|
| Hi again gang,
|
| As well as my ebay bid for the photo, I thought I'd try for the 1950's Zippo
| lighter, with the Aero Commander logo on it.
|
| I've been outbid!!
|
| Is there someone on the list bidding against me?
|
| If not, I'll re-bid a tad higher.
|
| Barry C.
| UK CommanderLand rep
|
|
| ---------------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Gear Retract Cylinder |
Dose anyone know where we can find a gear retract cylinder P/N EA1165
for our 560A?
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Gear Retract Cylinder |
In a message dated 5/13/2003 2:32:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
billw@air-matrix.com writes:
> Dose anyone know where we can find a gear retract cylinder P/N EA1165
> for our 560A?
Always start with the "stand by guys" Morris Kernick (he jus sent me a
couple of gear parts) 510-783-3028 or Jack Chappell 909-371-7513. Good luck!
jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
I just finished a minor OH on my nose strut. Just like John
Bosch wrote in his article in the last FGN, it really needed it. I found a
couple of cracked parts and of course the "O" rings were all shot. Took
longer than I thought it would (doesn't it always) I didn't realize the down
lock spring arm attached to the centering pin (centers the gear prior to
retract). That added about 2 hours to the process.
The good news is it is done. Now if it will just still be holding air
in the morning!! hope all is well in "Commanderland" jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Campbell" <baruch(at)intelligentflight.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gear Retract Cylinder |
Dont forget Earle Aircraft... (904) 692-5951
Or Surprise Valley (530) 279-2111 (who says they have a 560....
Dont go to Dodson unless you have to. They charge top dollar. But if you
have to:
785) 878-4000
Bruce Campbell
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Gear Retract Cylinder
>
> In a message dated 5/13/2003 2:32:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> billw@air-matrix.com writes:
>
> > Dose anyone know where we can find a gear retract cylinder P/N EA1165
> > for our 560A?
>
> Always start with the "stand by guys" Morris Kernick (he jus sent me a
> couple of gear parts) 510-783-3028 or Jack Chappell 909-371-7513. Good
luck!
> jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com |
Hi JB
Hope all is well in the US. Have got power on the old bird. After all the dissconnects
only a couplr of things dont work.One of the classics was having to push
the Rh start to turn the LH engine. The electrical fellow has about two days
work left on it. I have fitted the center and RH fwd and aft tanks, the LH ones
should be here in about a week. Absolute bastard of a job. I cleaned and reprimed
the fuel bays and have fitted new tubes. Hopefully we will be able to
fill the center tanks soon.
In regard to the flyin ,are you going in 222? If so are you looking for a passenger
or two. The reason being I would like to get a little engine handling experience
from a master before I get too clever in mine. There seems to be a wealth
of experience in OZ, unfortunately all opinions are different and based on
experience a long time ago, nobody is current.
Will speak to you soon.
Regards,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
Oh heck!
Does this mean we won't hear "Commander, Victor Hotel - Charlie Alfa X-Ray,
contact Dayton Approach on 118.85" next September?
Barry C.
UK CommanderLand rep.
----- Original Message -----
From: <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Fly in
|
| Hi JB
|
| Hope all is well in the US. Have got power on the old bird. After all the
dissconnects only a couplr of things dont work.One of the classics was having to
push the Rh start to turn the LH engine. The electrical fellow has about two
days work left on it. I have fitted the center and RH fwd and aft tanks, the LH
ones should be here in about a week. Absolute bastard of a job. I cleaned and
reprimed the fuel bays and have fitted new tubes. Hopefully we will be able to
fill the center tanks soon.
|
| In regard to the flyin ,are you going in 222? If so are you looking for a
passenger or two. The reason being I would like to get a little engine handling
experience from a master before I get too clever in mine. There seems to be a
wealth of experience in OZ, unfortunately all opinions are different and based
on experience a long time ago, nobody is current.
|
| Will speak to you soon.
| Regards,
| Richard
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com |
Barry,
Unfortunately the old bird wont be finished in time. I am seriously looking at
doing the trip in the future, maybe take in Oshkosh, Reno and the fly in, might
even carry on going.
I am still trying to get hold of a few parts. Then she needs a paint job. Then
a good shake down like a trip around OZ ( at least there is somewhere to land
if things go pear shaped and you dont have too far to swim)
Regards,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RnJThompson(at)aol.com |
Barry,
Unfortunately the old bird wont be finished in time. I am seriously looking at
doing the trip in the future, maybe take in Oshkosh, Reno and the fly in, might
even carry on going.
I am still trying to get hold of a few parts. Then she needs a paint job. Then
a good shake down like a trip around OZ ( at least there is somewhere to land
if things go pear shaped and you dont have too far to swim)
Regards,
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au |
Sir Barry!!
I know Richard and I promised to bring CAX along to Miamisburg two
years ago...but another year or so will be worth the wait!
We might even be able to arrange for you to come down under and cross
the pacific in a Commander on the way to the next fly-in. We will need
someone to keep the skin on the pear!
Long live Oz Commanders!
Cheers
Russell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: ebay - Zippo lighter |
Barry,
I only just noticed your email address. Is Charles Oman still around, as I
recall he was an Air Britain enthusiast in years gone by.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton.
>
>No I am not bidding but I will be arriving LHR on AA57 the 14th. We stay
>at the Le Meridian right near LHR. If you will email me you phone number
>I will try to get in touch with you. dan farmercommander wanna be
>
>Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote:--> Commander-List
>message posted by: "Barry Collman"
>
>Hi again gang,
>
>As well as my ebay bid for the photo, I thought I'd try for the 1950's Zippo
>lighter, with the Aero Commander logo on it.
>
>I've been outbid!!
>
>Is there someone on the list bidding against me?
>
>If not, I'll re-bid a tad higher.
>
>Barry C.
>UK CommanderLand rep
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Question for Nico - or anyone else who may know South |
Africa
Hi Nico,
Just polishing up and putting some finishing touches on my book - do you know where
the Johannesburg TMA boundary was between Messina and JNB - around Pietersburg,
perhaps?
I've had some good feedback on the book - the folks who have read it all say I
have a good chance in getting it published, but we will have to wait to see what
the Agents say.
One other thing, if you don't mind, I have a situation where a flight plan is filed
in flight, and was wondering whether I have this correct... (it has been
15 years since I last flew!)
Lee, the pilot, has been contacted by AFB Pietersburg and they request a flight
plan, and Lee responds:
"Pietersburg, Zulu Sierra Lima Mike Hotel, a Shrike Commander, was airborne Sand
River Ranch, Zimbabwe, at." Lee glanced at his watch, "at one nine three five
Zulu, speed one six five knots, flight level nine five, Johannesburg boundary
at two zero four five, for Smuts at two one three zero. I have four hours endurance,
and we are one plus one on board, over."
Does this sound right?
Your assistance is appreciated, Nico! Thanks!
Regards,
Andrew.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | a couple changes... |
"Pietersburg, Zulu Sierra Lima Mike Hotel, a Shrike Commander, off Sand River Ranch,
Zimbabwe, at." Lee glanced at his watch, "at one nine three five Zulu, speed
one six five knots, altitude nine point five, Johannesburg boundary at two
zero four five, estimating Smuts at two one three zero. fuel on board four hours
Steve C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
Thanks, Steve - is this the US format for Flight Plans, or the South African
format?
Regards,
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> "Pietersburg, Zulu Sierra Lima Mike Hotel, a Shrike Commander, off Sand
River Ranch, Zimbabwe, at." Lee glanced at his watch, "at one nine three
five Zulu, speed one six five knots, altitude nine point five, Johannesburg
boundary at two zero four five, estimating Smuts at two one three zero. fuel
on board four hours , and we are two souls on board. over."
>
> Steve C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
US
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew & Bridget Watson
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
Thanks, Steve - is this the US format for Flight Plans, or the South African
format?
Regards,
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
To:
Subject: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> "Pietersburg, Zulu Sierra Lima Mike Hotel, a Shrike Commander, off Sand
River Ranch, Zimbabwe, at." Lee glanced at his watch, "at one nine three
five Zulu, speed one six five knots, altitude nine point five, Johannesburg
boundary at two zero four five, estimating Smuts at two one three zero. fuel
on board four hours , and we are two souls on board. over."
>
> Steve C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
My $.02 worth.
In the words "a Shrike Commander" I would not say "a", I would just say
"Shrike Commander".
What about the "nine" word, as I do not know when or who is flying, what
about "niner"?
Are you using HF? If so ok on the "over" part.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> "Pietersburg, Zulu Sierra Lima Mike Hotel, a Shrike Commander, off Sand
River Ranch, Zimbabwe, at." Lee glanced at his watch, "at one nine three
five Zulu, speed one six five knots, altitude nine point five, Johannesburg
boundary at two zero four five, estimating Smuts at two one three zero. fuel
on board four hours , and we are two souls on board. over."
>
> Steve C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
Andrew
I agree with Tom, you would say 'niner' but not 'two souls'. We used to
report the 'souls' (some folks were hardly worth that) on board as crew+pax,
such as one plus three for four souls. You have it right.
Didn't Pietersburg have it's own TMA because of the airforce base over
there? How come I recall having to QSY to Pietersburg on my way to Tzaneen
or Phalaborwa?
I don't know if some of the charts survived the move to the US, but I am
sure you can get that info from the CAA in Pretoria. Perhaps if you could
email a good friend of mine from the 60's - Keith Smith at Wonderboom in
Pretoria, he would surely be able to help you. Keith is currently the
Enstrom agent in South Africa and he is a Grade I instructor with helicopter
and other ratings.
By the way, Keith was the instructor in the flight in the Apache when a
student feathered the left engine during a multi engine conversion
engine-out practice, and they crashed in someone's back yard adjacent to the
airport. If I remember I will upload the pictures of the wreck showing the
left engine feathered. That was a week after I did my ME in that plane.
Keith can be contacted at keith(at)enstrom.co.za or you can visit his website
at www.enstrom.co.za
Let me know if you had any luck.
Thanks
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> My $.02 worth.
> In the words "a Shrike Commander" I would not say "a", I would just say
> "Shrike Commander".
> What about the "nine" word, as I do not know when or who is flying, what
> about "niner"?
> Are you using HF? If so ok on the "over" part.
>
> Tom F.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
> To:
> Subject: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
>
> >
> > "Pietersburg, Zulu Sierra Lima Mike Hotel, a Shrike Commander, off Sand
> River Ranch, Zimbabwe, at." Lee glanced at his watch, "at one nine three
> five Zulu, speed one six five knots, altitude nine point five,
Johannesburg
> boundary at two zero four five, estimating Smuts at two one three zero.
fuel
> on board four hours , and we are two souls on board. over."
> >
> > Steve C.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
All,
"over" is a bit of a hangover, ICAO Annex X, Vol 11 now says use or not use
all the link words -- at--over ( as in place, and end of this part of the
transmission and expecting a reply) --estimating-- time etc, depending on
the quality of the transmissions, the standard of language, etc. and no
longer differentiates between HF and VHF.
The US AIP (and maybe the AIM) still include both "over" and "over and out".
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton.
>
>
>My $.02 worth.
>In the words "a Shrike Commander" I would not say "a", I would just say
>"Shrike Commander".
>What about the "nine" word, as I do not know when or who is flying, what
>about "niner"?
>Are you using HF? If so ok on the "over" part.
>
>Tom F.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
>To:
>Subject: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
>
> >
> > "Pietersburg, Zulu Sierra Lima Mike Hotel, a Shrike Commander, off Sand
>River Ranch, Zimbabwe, at." Lee glanced at his watch, "at one nine three
>five Zulu, speed one six five knots, altitude nine point five, Johannesburg
>boundary at two zero four five, estimating Smuts at two one three zero. fuel
>on board four hours , and we are two souls on board. over."
> >
> > Steve C.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
Thanks, Nico, I'll try and get hold of Keith. I think you are right about
Pietersburg having its own TMA - last time I flew Beit Bridge Wonderboom was
in 1983, and now that you mention it I think I remember having to QSY to
Pietersburg - but I think they have a very small TMA.
One other thing about the flight plan - from what I remember in South
Africa, it is Flight Level 95, (9,500 feet with 1014 mb on the altimeter),
as opposed to Altitude 9.5, or am I totally confused?
Regards,
Andrew.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
I know that SA is one of the countries that have FL's at 3,000' above GL and
higher and not only above 18,000' as we have here in the US. I think it's
18k.
So, you will find someone cruising at FL45 at the coast and FL95 on the
Reef, with the same altimeter setting as someone cruising at FL310, for
instance.
FL's always have the standard altimeter setting of 1013.25 mb. (29.9213")
Below these levels you would set the altimeter according to the pressure
indicated by ATC and you would call your altitude in feet instead of a FL.
Hope this is helpful.
Thanks
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> Thanks, Nico, I'll try and get hold of Keith. I think you are right about
> Pietersburg having its own TMA - last time I flew Beit Bridge Wonderboom
was
> in 1983, and now that you mention it I think I remember having to QSY to
> Pietersburg - but I think they have a very small TMA.
>
> One other thing about the flight plan - from what I remember in South
> Africa, it is Flight Level 95, (9,500 feet with 1014 mb on the altimeter),
> as opposed to Altitude 9.5, or am I totally confused?
>
> Regards,
> Andrew.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
In a message dated 05/14/03 20:56:22 Pacific Daylight Time, k4cpx(at)arrl.net
writes:
> Thanks, Steve - is this the US format for Flight Plans, or the South
> African
> format?
This is a standar position report format, world wide, with the exception that
this appears to be a "pop up" TMA (or other boundary) position report that
includes number of souls aboard.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
In a message dated 05/15/03 04:05:15 Pacific Daylight Time,
fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au writes:
> "over" is a bit of a hangover
I have to smile at this. I find "over" is making a come back, at least here
in the U.S., where many calls to ATC go unanswered because the controller is
"on the land line." (To whom? Wife? Bookie? Divorce attorney?)
I noticed a celebrity guest copilot end his transmission with "over" after 3
calls to check in at Flight Level and received an immediate response when
other crews did not.
So I've began an experiment ... and it works! If ATC doesn't respond to an
initial call and I hear other crews check in with no response, I'll call
again and end with "over," and get them to respond straight away.
Something about that antiquated word strikes a primal chord in all of us who
have memories (or at least have seen movies) with someone desperately calling
Saipan on HF amid static and squeals ...
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
All,
I guess this comes into the frame as part of the "decision making process"
of the pilot in command, the word are there to be used if necessary.
" If it works for you------ etc".
Listening to the RFSS operations around Australia, it sound like all the
training videos are black and white aviation movies of the '40's, to the
degree that they even say "over" on the phone.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
>
>In a message dated 05/15/03 04:05:15 Pacific Daylight Time,
>fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au writes:
>
>
> > "over" is a bit of a hangover
>
>I have to smile at this. I find "over" is making a come back, at least here
>in the U.S., where many calls to ATC go unanswered because the controller is
>"on the land line." (To whom? Wife? Bookie? Divorce attorney?)
>
>I noticed a celebrity guest copilot end his transmission with "over" after 3
>calls to check in at Flight Level and received an immediate response when
>other crews did not.
>
>So I've began an experiment ... and it works! If ATC doesn't respond to an
>initial call and I hear other crews check in with no response, I'll call
>again and end with "over," and get them to respond straight away.
>
>Something about that antiquated word strikes a primal chord in all of us who
>have memories (or at least have seen movies) with someone desperately calling
>Saipan on HF amid static and squeals ...
>
>Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
Especially if you hear 'roger' and 'over and out'.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> All,
> I guess this comes into the frame as part of the "decision making
process"
> of the pilot in command, the word are there to be used if necessary.
> " If it works for you------ etc".
> Listening to the RFSS operations around Australia, it sound like all the
> training videos are black and white aviation movies of the '40's, to the
> degree that they even say "over" on the phone.
> Cheers,
> Bill Hamilton
>
>
> >
> >In a message dated 05/15/03 04:05:15 Pacific Daylight Time,
> >fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au writes:
> >
> >
> > > "over" is a bit of a hangover
> >
> >I have to smile at this. I find "over" is making a come back, at least
here
> >in the U.S., where many calls to ATC go unanswered because the controller
is
> >"on the land line." (To whom? Wife? Bookie? Divorce attorney?)
> >
> >I noticed a celebrity guest copilot end his transmission with "over"
after 3
> >calls to check in at Flight Level and received an immediate response when
> >other crews did not.
> >
> >So I've began an experiment ... and it works! If ATC doesn't respond to
an
> >initial call and I hear other crews check in with no response, I'll call
> >again and end with "over," and get them to respond straight away.
> >
> >Something about that antiquated word strikes a primal chord in all of us
who
> >have memories (or at least have seen movies) with someone desperately
calling
> >Saipan on HF amid static and squeals ...
> >
> >Wing Commander Gordon
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
I'll be listening for you Gordon. I think you will stand out quite nicely.
The only time including HF I have ever used the antiquated term was as a
lone word transmission when I got no answer.
But then I'm not one of the "with you at ....." people either.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> In a message dated 05/15/03 04:05:15 Pacific Daylight Time,
> fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au writes:
>
>
> > "over" is a bit of a hangover
>
> I have to smile at this. I find "over" is making a come back, at least
here
> in the U.S., where many calls to ATC go unanswered because the controller
is
> "on the land line." (To whom? Wife? Bookie? Divorce attorney?)
>
> I noticed a celebrity guest copilot end his transmission with "over" after
3
> calls to check in at Flight Level and received an immediate response when
> other crews did not.
>
> So I've began an experiment ... and it works! If ATC doesn't respond to
an
> initial call and I hear other crews check in with no response, I'll call
> again and end with "over," and get them to respond straight away.
>
> Something about that antiquated word strikes a primal chord in all of us
who
> have memories (or at least have seen movies) with someone desperately
calling
> Saipan on HF amid static and squeals ...
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Crunkleton" <crunk12(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
Keith,
I've been using "Over" for years. If, after the third call, and I still get
no response, I give a pause, and then say "Over". The reply is almost always
the same.
"Sorry, I was on the land line, did someone just check in?"
However, have you noticed that when they are calling you, if you are the
slightest bit tardy in your response, (say a two second delay because you've
dropped your mike and are digging for it) they call you two more times with
no delay for a response! My standard modus operandi for those situations is
to reply, "Sorry, I was on the land line".
Crunk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
In a message dated 05/16/03 04:45:57 Pacific Daylight Time,
bowing74(at)earthlink.net writes:
> then I'm not one of the "with you at ....." people either.
I'm with you on that!
Be sure to note the sarcastic, exasperated tone in my voice when I say,
"Over," used when ATC doesn't answer.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
In a message dated 05/16/03 05:05:49 Pacific Daylight Time,
crunk12(at)bellsouth.net writes:
> My standard modus operandi for those situations is to reply, "Sorry, I was
> on the land line".
>
That's terrific!
Some day I'll have the courage to say, "Thank you for calling (Falcon _____
/ Commander _______ ). Your call is very important to us. No one is in to
take your call right now, but if you leave your Center name, frequency and a
brief message, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. Again, thank you for
calling and wait for the beep."
Have to pick the right Center ... Albuquerque would like it, but I think
Cleveland will just hang up and not leave a message.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID LAWSON" <david(at)lawsoninc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
Not Albuquerque! This is just the thing for NEW YORK!!
_________
Unless expressly confirmed in this email to the contrary the information
contained in this transmission has not been screened by any anti virus
system. The information contained herein and/or attached files should not
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----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> In a message dated 05/16/03 05:05:49 Pacific Daylight Time,
> crunk12(at)bellsouth.net writes:
>
>
> > My standard modus operandi for those situations is to reply, "Sorry, I
was
> > on the land line".
> >
>
> That's terrific!
>
> Some day I'll have the courage to say, "Thank you for calling (Falcon
_____
> / Commander _______ ). Your call is very important to us. No one is in
to
> take your call right now, but if you leave your Center name, frequency and
a
> brief message, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. Again, thank you
for
> calling and wait for the beep."
>
> Have to pick the right Center ... Albuquerque would like it, but I think
> Cleveland will just hang up and not leave a message.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
Fellows be careful jabbing back at center too hard. Remember they are in
control of your arrival and can give you a heading toward never never land
for a long arrival. I have seen this happen too many times. Those
controllers are just human and you have nice ones and you have not so nice
ones. I have used "over" when they would not answer and it does work and it
did work for me.
"Over" is still used with the boating people. Their procedures are out of
the 30's.
Jim Addington
N444BD
----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Gents:
As my voice gets older I have noticed that always starting each transmission
with "and," and the use of words such as tallyho, Roger, wilco, over, and
"with you" work much better than they did 20 years ago, although the fraze
"Roger Wilco, over and out" does not seem to get me any points with approach
when they give me long winded instructions, and advise me to call Hawthorne
tower.
I agree with always being courtious to ATC. Several years ago Ontario (CA)
approach told me to "hold in right turns and expect call back in 20 minutes"
when I called and asked permission to "clip the corner of their ARSA".
Moe Mills
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Hmmm, I dug out my old "Radio Telephony for Pilots" manual and read through it
- apparently in 1972 (when it was published - hey wasn't that around the time
Noah built his ark?) "over" was still being used, but only in certain circumstances
- and that appears to be when the pilot is giving an estimate. They also
use "out", "roger", and "wilco". The manual specifically says never to use "over"
and "out" together - i.e. "over and out" as this is a contradiction in terms
- "over" means you are ending your transmission and you expect a reply, whereas
"out" means you are ending your transmission and you do not expect a reply.
The manual has an example of a written flight plan (on a form) but, alas, not an
example of a verbal flight plan - although it has every conceivable other form
of R/T conversation, including the whole Q-Code list.
Direct from the manual:
"Approach Alpha Bravo Charlie airborne Jan Smuts two one climbing to flight level
one zero zero estimating Mike Tango three three over"
And for you, Nico - it is also available in Afrikaans!
"Nadering Alpha Bravo Charlie opgestyg Jan Smuts twee een, klim na vlugvlak een
zero zero, bereken Mike Tango drie drie oor."
Regards,
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com
Date: Friday, May 16, 2003 10:58 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> Gents:
>
> As my voice gets older I have noticed that always starting each
> transmission
> with "and," and the use of words such as tallyho, Roger, wilco,
> over, and
> "with you" work much better than they did 20 years ago, although
> the fraze
> "Roger Wilco, over and out" does not seem to get me any points
> with approach
> when they give me long winded instructions, and advise me to call
> Hawthorne
> tower.
>
> I agree with always being courtious to ATC. Several years ago
> Ontario (CA)
> approach told me to "hold in right turns and expect call back in
> 20 minutes"
> when I called and asked permission to "clip the corner of their ARSA".
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Get a scanner and do like the Romans.....Steve C.
================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
Hmmm, I dug out my old "Radio Telephony for Pilots" manual and read through it
- apparently in 1972 (when it was published - hey wasn't that around the time
Noah built his ark?) "over" was still being used, but only in certain circumstances
- and that appears to be when the pilot is giving an estimate. They also
use "out", "roger", and "wilco". The manual specifically says never to use
"over" and "out" together - i.e. "over and out" as this is a contradiction in
terms - "over" means you are ending your transmission and you expect a reply,
whereas "out" means you are ending your transmission and you do not expect a reply.
The manual has an example of a written flight plan (on a form) but, alas, not
an example of a verbal flight plan - although it has every conceivable other
form of R/T conversation, including the whole Q-Code list.
Direct from the manual:
"Approach Alpha Bravo Charlie airborne Jan Smuts two one climbing to flight level
one zero zero estimating Mike Tango three three over"
And for you, Nico - it is also available in Afrikaans!
"Nadering Alpha Bravo Charlie opgestyg Jan Smuts twee een, klim na vlugvlak een
zero zero, bereken Mike Tango drie drie oor."
Regards,
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: MOEMILLS(at)aol.com
Date: Friday, May 16, 2003 10:58 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> Gents:
>
> As my voice gets older I have noticed that always starting each
> transmission
> with "and," and the use of words such as tallyho, Roger, wilco,
> over, and
> "with you" work much better than they did 20 years ago, although
> the fraze
> "Roger Wilco, over and out" does not seem to get me any points
> with approach
> when they give me long winded instructions, and advise me to call
> Hawthorne
> tower.
>
> I agree with always being courtious to ATC. Several years ago
> Ontario (CA)
> approach told me to "hold in right turns and expect call back in
> 20 minutes"
> when I called and asked permission to "clip the corner of their ARSA".
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
Tragedy in Eastern Canada
Gander NFLD (CP) Canada's Worst Air Disaster occurred earlier today when a Cessna
152, a small two-seater plane, crashed into a cemetery early this morning in
central Newfoundland.
Newfie search and rescue workers have recovered 826 bodies so far, and expect that
number to climb as digging continues into the evening.
Tom F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
OH
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> In a message dated 05/16/03 04:45:57 Pacific Daylight Time,
> bowing74(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
>
> > then I'm not one of the "with you at ....." people either.
>
> I'm with you on that!
>
> Be sure to note the sarcastic, exasperated tone in my voice when I say,
> "Over," used when ATC doesn't answer.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
Timing is everything. I think about 3 am when the "roll on" freighters are
out. It might be well received.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
> In a message dated 05/16/03 05:05:49 Pacific Daylight Time,
> crunk12(at)bellsouth.net writes:
>
>
> > My standard modus operandi for those situations is to reply, "Sorry, I
was
> > on the land line".
> >
>
> That's terrific!
>
> Some day I'll have the courage to say, "Thank you for calling (Falcon
_____
> / Commander _______ ). Your call is very important to us. No one is in
to
> take your call right now, but if you leave your Center name, frequency and
a
> brief message, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. Again, thank you
for
> calling and wait for the beep."
>
> Have to pick the right Center ... Albuquerque would like it, but I think
> Cleveland will just hang up and not leave a message.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
You picked my favorite approach facility(SoCal now). After 12 years of
flying UPS DC-8's into ONT. One controller asked me to hold 250K to Petis
NDB, cleared for the ILS 26L. I advised him I could hold the 250 to Petis
but there would be no chance of impacting the planet anywhere near the
Ontario airport.("The 8" was a little challenged without speedbrakes)
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> Gents:
>
> As my voice gets older I have noticed that always starting each
transmission
> with "and," and the use of words such as tallyho, Roger, wilco, over, and
> "with you" work much better than they did 20 years ago, although the fraze
> "Roger Wilco, over and out" does not seem to get me any points with
approach
> when they give me long winded instructions, and advise me to call
Hawthorne
> tower.
>
> I agree with always being courtious to ATC. Several years ago Ontario
(CA)
> approach told me to "hold in right turns and expect call back in 20
minutes"
> when I called and asked permission to "clip the corner of their ARSA".
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Hey Bilbo buddy......I'll profess my ignorance, but you gotta 'splain that ONT
post???
Steve C.
=======================================
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bow
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
You picked my favorite approach facility(SoCal now). After 12 years of
flying UPS DC-8's into ONT. One controller asked me to hold 250K to Petis
NDB, cleared for the ILS 26L. I advised him I could hold the 250 to Petis
but there would be no chance of impacting the planet anywhere near the
Ontario airport.("The 8" was a little challenged without speedbrakes)
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Sorry,
I was replying to Moe's post which referenced Ontario,Ca approach Control,
now SoCal Approach. We had been flying DC-8's in there for years(more that
10) and they should have had a good idea of what the 8 could and couldn't
do. They can't slow down and go down. They have no speedbrakes, instead
the 8 would reverse the inboard engines to slow down and/or go down, a
procedure the company did not want us to use on a regular basis.
Had I crossed the NDB(12.6 miles from touchdown) he referenced, at the speed
he referenced(250K), we could not have slowed the airplane to configured and
land at the ONT airport. The controller only gave us about half of the
needed space we needed.
Sorry to get off the "beaten path" with this thing.
hope this makes sense:>)
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> Hey Bilbo buddy......I'll profess my ignorance, but you gotta 'splain that
ONT post???
> Steve C.
> =======================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Bow
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 5:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
>
> You picked my favorite approach facility(SoCal now). After 12 years of
> flying UPS DC-8's into ONT. One controller asked me to hold 250K to
Petis
> NDB, cleared for the ILS 26L. I advised him I could hold the 250 to
Petis
> but there would be no chance of impacting the planet anywhere near the
> Ontario airport.("The 8" was a little challenged without speedbrakes)
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Well the engine shop called today and I think I am getting an award for
timing. I got all there was to get out of that engine, before it would have
quit. It was supposed to have 800 hours on it. But, when you buy an
airplane with a circuit breaker on the Hobbs meter, I guess you never know.
I got about 75 hours out of it in 2 years, really 18 months, It was broke
the other 6.
At this point they are going to have the cam reground and build an engine
around it. Sure am glad it is one of those "CHEAP" IO-470 Continentals.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Yeah, Bilbo, I understand now. Thanks......But....reverse buckets in flight? No
gear switches to activate? Also how's the new MOH engine coming along? Steve
C.
==============================================
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bow
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
Sorry,
I was replying to Moe's post which referenced Ontario,Ca approach Control,
now SoCal Approach. We had been flying DC-8's in there for years(more that
10) and they should have had a good idea of what the 8 could and couldn't
do. They can't slow down and go down. They have no speedbrakes, instead
the 8 would reverse the inboard engines to slow down and/or go down, a
procedure the company did not want us to use on a regular basis.
Had I crossed the NDB(12.6 miles from touchdown) he referenced, at the speed
he referenced(250K), we could not have slowed the airplane to configured and
land at the ONT airport. The controller only gave us about half of the
needed space we needed.
Sorry to get off the "beaten path" with this thing.
hope this makes sense:>)
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> Hey Bilbo buddy......I'll profess my ignorance, but you gotta 'splain that
ONT post???
> Steve C.
> =======================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Bow
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 5:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
>
> You picked my favorite approach facility(SoCal now). After 12 years of
> flying UPS DC-8's into ONT. One controller asked me to hold 250K to
Petis
> NDB, cleared for the ILS 26L. I advised him I could hold the 250 to
Petis
> but there would be no chance of impacting the planet anywhere near the
> Ontario airport.("The 8" was a little challenged without speedbrakes)
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
I always wondered what would happen if one were to put a turboprop or a jet
in reverse thrust in flight. Will it rip the engines off the pylons?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> Yeah, Bilbo, I understand now. Thanks......But....reverse buckets in
flight? No gear switches to activate? Also how's the new MOH engine coming
along? Steve C.
> ==============================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Bow
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
>
> Sorry,
>
> I was replying to Moe's post which referenced Ontario,Ca approach
Control,
> now SoCal Approach. We had been flying DC-8's in there for years(more
that
> 10) and they should have had a good idea of what the 8 could and
couldn't
> do. They can't slow down and go down. They have no speedbrakes,
instead
> the 8 would reverse the inboard engines to slow down and/or go down, a
> procedure the company did not want us to use on a regular basis.
>
> Had I crossed the NDB(12.6 miles from touchdown) he referenced, at the
speed
> he referenced(250K), we could not have slowed the airplane to configured
and
> land at the ONT airport. The controller only gave us about half of the
> needed space we needed.
>
> Sorry to get off the "beaten path" with this thing.
>
> hope this makes sense:>)
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
> >
> > Hey Bilbo buddy......I'll profess my ignorance, but you gotta 'splain
that
> ONT post???
> > Steve C.
> > =======================================
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bill Bow
> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 5:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
> >
> >
>
> >
> > You picked my favorite approach facility(SoCal now). After 12 years
of
> > flying UPS DC-8's into ONT. One controller asked me to hold 250K to
> Petis
> > NDB, cleared for the ILS 26L. I advised him I could hold the 250 to
> Petis
> > but there would be no chance of impacting the planet anywhere near
the
> > Ontario airport.("The 8" was a little challenged without
speedbrakes)
> >
> > bilbo
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J.R. Sprayberry" <capnspray(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Nico, As Bilbo said the DC-8 was approved for the inboards to be put in
reverse, and as for the Turbo Props, the L-188 Lockeed Electra was approved
for all four in reverse if needed, or lets say flat pitch which was about 2'
reverse pitch. at 1500 ft. when the end of the runway disappeared under the
nose, you could land on the first 500ft. of runway. Please don't quote me on
the specifics because it was only 38 years ago. huh
JR Spray
N198JW
AC680FP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> I always wondered what would happen if one were to put a turboprop or a
jet
> in reverse thrust in flight. Will it rip the engines off the pylons?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
> >
> > Yeah, Bilbo, I understand now. Thanks......But....reverse buckets in
> flight? No gear switches to activate? Also how's the new MOH engine
coming
> along? Steve C.
> > ==============================================
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bill Bow
> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
> >
> >
>
> >
> > Sorry,
> >
> > I was replying to Moe's post which referenced Ontario,Ca approach
> Control,
> > now SoCal Approach. We had been flying DC-8's in there for years(more
> that
> > 10) and they should have had a good idea of what the 8 could and
> couldn't
> > do. They can't slow down and go down. They have no speedbrakes,
> instead
> > the 8 would reverse the inboard engines to slow down and/or go down, a
> > procedure the company did not want us to use on a regular basis.
> >
> > Had I crossed the NDB(12.6 miles from touchdown) he referenced, at the
> speed
> > he referenced(250K), we could not have slowed the airplane to
configured
> and
> > land at the ONT airport. The controller only gave us about half of
the
> > needed space we needed.
> >
> > Sorry to get off the "beaten path" with this thing.
> >
> > hope this makes sense:>)
> > bilbo
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Hey Bilbo buddy......I'll profess my ignorance, but you gotta
'splain
> that
> > ONT post???
> > > Steve C.
> > > =======================================
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Bill Bow
> > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 5:57 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > You picked my favorite approach facility(SoCal now). After 12
years
> of
> > > flying UPS DC-8's into ONT. One controller asked me to hold 250K
to
> > Petis
> > > NDB, cleared for the ILS 26L. I advised him I could hold the 250
to
> > Petis
> > > but there would be no chance of impacting the planet anywhere near
> the
> > > Ontario airport.("The 8" was a little challenged without
> speedbrakes)
> > >
> > > bilbo
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Nico, I don't know if you remember the Pretoria Skydiving guys at
Wonderboom - they used to fly a Pilatus Porter and the pilot used to race
the guys down - he'd put the nose down and come down vertically, pull out
about 50 feet from the ground, land and taxi up to the fuel pumps before the
first skydiver hit the ground. Apparently the Porter is one of the few
aircraft that you can put in beta power while airborne.
It always scared the hell out of me when he did that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> I always wondered what would happen if one were to put a turboprop or a
jet
> in reverse thrust in flight. Will it rip the engines off the pylons?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
You're right, Andrew. I had forgotten about that. Mike Snoyman (he died last
year I think) and those guys. I remember the Pilatus standing on its nose
all the way down. I did a few flights for them in a C206 and a C182 but I
have never flown the Pilatus.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
> Nico, I don't know if you remember the Pretoria Skydiving guys at
> Wonderboom - they used to fly a Pilatus Porter and the pilot used to race
> the guys down - he'd put the nose down and come down vertically, pull out
> about 50 feet from the ground, land and taxi up to the fuel pumps before
the
> first skydiver hit the ground. Apparently the Porter is one of the few
> aircraft that you can put in beta power while airborne.
>
> It always scared the hell out of me when he did that.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
>
> >
> > I always wondered what would happen if one were to put a turboprop or a
> jet
> > in reverse thrust in flight. Will it rip the engines off the pylons?
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
Nico,
All of that, and more, I can't keep a straight face when I hear it all,
with nonsense like "that's a roger". Anybody wasting time like that should
be well and truly roger'd.
The one that really breaks me up is the continual mishearing of
"affirmative" and "negative", leading to things like:
"Confirm that's a negative"
"Negative, that's affirmative"
"Say again that's negative or affirmative"
--- and so it went on for several more minutes, the yarpies (SAA) on the
way from J'burg to Hong Kong, we were coming from Perth to Harare, and were
coming up to Beira. Could't help myself, in a brief lull in the to and fro,
I just said "tell him yes or no".
---- But it reaches a peak with radio operators for local Bushfire Brigades
around here, (and we have had lots of practice in the last two summers in
eastern Australia,) talking to the water bombers, the longest winded
shorthand you will ever hear. Not surprising really, Australian CASA
publishes "recommended phraseologies" that are about 5 times as extensive
as ICAO recommend, and it is about to all be made compulsory.
Thus as simple position ( Australian) report for QF 123 to Sydney will
become: Sydney, this is QF123 position"--- "QF 1213 this Sydney"----"Sydney
QF 123 position XXXX at time yyyy maintaining Flight level ZZZ ( of
thousands of feet, as applicable) estimating next position AAAA at time
BBBB following position CCCC." and where the position is a navaid, spell
out the whole ident, not the name of the place.
Never say it in two words, when you can make it in ten seems to be the policy.
Truth is truly stranger than fiction.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton.
>
>
>Especially if you hear 'roger' and 'over and out'.
>Nico
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill Hamilton" <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes...
>
>
>
> >
> > All,
> > I guess this comes into the frame as part of the "decision making
>process"
> > of the pilot in command, the word are there to be used if necessary.
> > " If it works for you------ etc".
> > Listening to the RFSS operations around Australia, it sound like all the
> > training videos are black and white aviation movies of the '40's, to the
> > degree that they even say "over" on the phone.
> > Cheers,
> > Bill Hamilton
> >
> >
> > >
> > >In a message dated 05/15/03 04:05:15 Pacific Daylight Time,
> > >fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > "over" is a bit of a hangover
> > >
> > >I have to smile at this. I find "over" is making a come back, at least
>here
> > >in the U.S., where many calls to ATC go unanswered because the controller
>is
> > >"on the land line." (To whom? Wife? Bookie? Divorce attorney?)
> > >
> > >I noticed a celebrity guest copilot end his transmission with "over"
>after 3
> > >calls to check in at Flight Level and received an immediate response when
> > >other crews did not.
> > >
> > >So I've began an experiment ... and it works! If ATC doesn't respond to
>an
> > >initial call and I hear other crews check in with no response, I'll call
> > >again and end with "over," and get them to respond straight away.
> > >
> > >Something about that antiquated word strikes a primal chord in all of us
>who
> > >have memories (or at least have seen movies) with someone desperately
>calling
> > >Saipan on HF amid static and squeals ...
> > >
> > >Wing Commander Gordon
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: a couple changes... |
All,
This reminds me of another one I always wanted to say, but never got the
chance, by the time I got a command, the rules had changed.
For may years Australia had a unique 200 mh DME, and an IFR pilot had to be
individually endorsed on all navaids separately.
If you were not endorsed and current you couldn't use the aid.
The were requirement to demonstrate DMW homing and a "DME Approach" ( no
other aid)
Qantas aircraft only had "international" DME, and refused to waste time and
money flying procedures every six months, that we would never use.
Thus, none of us were "DME endorsed", something that was quaintly ignored
outside Australia.
And what did I never get the chance to do: When ATC came up, QFXXX, say
your DME", I could legitimately, in fact I should strictly legally reply, "
Sorry, can't tell you, I'm not DME endorsed". ---- from somebody with 400+
pax flying in close formation.
Cheers all,
Bill Hamilton.
>
>In a message dated 05/16/03 05:05:49 Pacific Daylight Time,
>crunk12(at)bellsouth.net writes:
>
>
> > My standard modus operandi for those situations is to reply, "Sorry, I was
> > on the land line".
> >
>
>That's terrific!
>
>Some day I'll have the courage to say, "Thank you for calling (Falcon _____
>/ Commander _______ ). Your call is very important to us. No one is in to
>take your call right now, but if you leave your Center name, frequency and a
>brief message, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. Again, thank you for
>calling and wait for the beep."
>
>Have to pick the right Center ... Albuquerque would like it, but I think
>Cleveland will just hang up and not leave a message.
>
>Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Calling center |
Bill,
Didn't you have in flight reverse on the inboards of your DC-8's, that used
to give them spectacular flexibility versus our 707's.
And from the depths of the memory banks ( I was the S/O, the Captain had
never even been an F/O, let alone such a lowly form of life as a S/O).
Early morning Sydney, in the days of one short runway and one very short
runway, available only to a 707 if the runway was dry.
"Is the runway dry"
"The footpath around the tower is dry"
"OK, requesting radar vector to land on the footpath at the bottom of the
tower"
and on another occasion, same Captain and same S/0 ( me)
We were held up very high, well beyond getting a 707 down without an orbit.
After some discussion about the height and distance.
Tower "Can you get down alright from there?"
Captain " I can get down all right, but what am I going to do with my
bloody aeroplane and passengers."
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton.
>
>You picked my favorite approach facility(SoCal now). After 12 years of
>flying UPS DC-8's into ONT. One controller asked me to hold 250K to Petis
>NDB, cleared for the ILS 26L. I advised him I could hold the 250 to Petis
>but there would be no chance of impacting the planet anywhere near the
>Ontario airport.("The 8" was a little challenged without speedbrakes)
>
>bilbo
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center
>
>
> >
> > Gents:
> >
> > As my voice gets older I have noticed that always starting each
>transmission
> > with "and," and the use of words such as tallyho, Roger, wilco, over, and
> > "with you" work much better than they did 20 years ago, although the fraze
> > "Roger Wilco, over and out" does not seem to get me any points with
>approach
> > when they give me long winded instructions, and advise me to call
>Hawthorne
> > tower.
> >
> > I agree with always being courtious to ATC. Several years ago Ontario
>(CA)
> > approach told me to "hold in right turns and expect call back in 20
>minutes"
> > when I called and asked permission to "clip the corner of their ARSA".
> >
> > Moe Mills
> > N680RR
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
Bill Bow wrote:
> I got all there was to get out of that engine, before it would have
> quit. It was supposed to have 800 hours on it.
Sad to hear that Bill. At least now you'll have a "known" engine
hanging out there when you get done. Stories such as yours were what
got me in gear to write that article a while back explaining that it's
not uncommon for engines to not reach anywhere near TBO... Are you going
back with factory new jugs or having yours re-worked?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Well it's like this.....
> Stories such as yours were what got me in gear to write that article a
while back explaining that it's
> not uncommon for engines to not reach anywhere near TBO
I will tell you what is "not uncommon", my Hobbs meter that is wired through
a circuit breaker. It is also less than 4 inches from the meter.
Handy......for those pesky Hobbs meter fires that are so frequent.
------------------------------------------
> Are you going back with factory new jugs or having yours re-worked?
Titans cylinders have been recomended.
bilbo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Consolation prize |
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
> I will tell you what is "not uncommon", my Hobbs meter that is wired
> through
> a circuit breaker. It is also less than 4 inches from the meter.
> Handy......for those pesky Hobbs meter fires that are so frequent.
Well, if it's any consolation, Morris is doing my annual and it has been
discovered we need to replace the landing gear trusses and engine mounts
on my rig due to innergrannular corrosion.
It will be one sweet 680E when done...and also the most upside down.
Unfortunately, I have little recourse. The IA that has signed off the
plane for the last couple of years should be quaking in his boots
though - that stuff doesn't just show up over night. Live and learn. I
wasn't educated enough to know where to look. Somehow it strikes me as
just slightly more dishonest than a Hobbs wired to a CB...
So now not only do I have my Masters degree in airplane partnerships, I
also have it in aircraft research and inspections.
anyone want a project 680E....
Barry
Barry Hancock
Director of Operations
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
Does anybody have an oil pan for an IO-470-M(found only on the 500A)?
Spare me the "Call Morris" response.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Consolation prize |
I looked at a 2003 Seneca V the other day with only a few hours on the
Hobbs, not to buy, just kicking tires, and I couldn't help thinking that
everything is new in this bird. No corrosion, no cracked hoses, no hidden
"stretch marks" due to some idiot trying to barrel roll her in a fit of
grand standing. It crossed my mind wondering whether the $700K for a lesser
rig is perhaps a better investment than 1/3 of that in something that would
one day tap you on the shoulder in flight and tell you 'I got to go'.
Naaah.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Commander-List: Consolation prize
>
>
> On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
>
> > I will tell you what is "not uncommon", my Hobbs meter that is wired
> > through
> > a circuit breaker. It is also less than 4 inches from the meter.
> > Handy......for those pesky Hobbs meter fires that are so frequent.
>
> Well, if it's any consolation, Morris is doing my annual and it has been
> discovered we need to replace the landing gear trusses and engine mounts
> on my rig due to innergrannular corrosion.
> It will be one sweet 680E when done...and also the most upside down.
> Unfortunately, I have little recourse. The IA that has signed off the
> plane for the last couple of years should be quaking in his boots
> though - that stuff doesn't just show up over night. Live and learn. I
> wasn't educated enough to know where to look. Somehow it strikes me as
> just slightly more dishonest than a Hobbs wired to a CB...
>
> So now not only do I have my Masters degree in airplane partnerships, I
> also have it in aircraft research and inspections.
>
> anyone want a project 680E....
>
> Barry
> Barry Hancock
> Director of Operations
> Red Stars, Inc.
> 949.300.5510
> www.allredstar.com
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Consolation prize |
Compare a tinker toy Seneca to a Commander??? Ah, pshaaa.....
Steve C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Consolation prize
I looked at a 2003 Seneca V the other day with only a few hours on the
Hobbs, not to buy, just kicking tires, and I couldn't help thinking that
everything is new in this bird. No corrosion, no cracked hoses, no hidden
"stretch marks" due to some idiot trying to barrel roll her in a fit of
grand standing. It crossed my mind wondering whether the $700K for a lesser
rig is perhaps a better investment than 1/3 of that in something that would
one day tap you on the shoulder in flight and tell you 'I got to go'.
Naaah.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
To:
Subject: Commander-List: Consolation prize
>
>
> On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
>
> > I will tell you what is "not uncommon", my Hobbs meter that is wired
> > through
> > a circuit breaker. It is also less than 4 inches from the meter.
> > Handy......for those pesky Hobbs meter fires that are so frequent.
>
> Well, if it's any consolation, Morris is doing my annual and it has been
> discovered we need to replace the landing gear trusses and engine mounts
> on my rig due to innergrannular corrosion.
> It will be one sweet 680E when done...and also the most upside down.
> Unfortunately, I have little recourse. The IA that has signed off the
> plane for the last couple of years should be quaking in his boots
> though - that stuff doesn't just show up over night. Live and learn. I
> wasn't educated enough to know where to look. Somehow it strikes me as
> just slightly more dishonest than a Hobbs wired to a CB...
>
> So now not only do I have my Masters degree in airplane partnerships, I
> also have it in aircraft research and inspections.
>
> anyone want a project 680E....
>
> Barry
> Barry Hancock
> Director of Operations
> Red Stars, Inc.
> 949.300.5510
> www.allredstar.com
> "Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Consolation prize |
Barry Hancock wrote:
> Well, if it's any consolation, Morris is doing my annual and it has been
> discovered we need to replace the landing gear trusses
Bummer Barry. Had to do those on my old Commander also. I am just
totally amazed that there isn't an AD yet on that. Almost every older
Commander I've ever seen has some serious damage in that area. Guess
it'll take one coming apart in flight before we get an AD... If folks
would just inspect and repair as needed, these things wouldn't turn into
ADs, but that is a slightly difficult area to find if you don't know to
look there.
cs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Consolation prize |
Nico van Niekerk wrote:
>It crossed my mind wondering whether the $700K for a lesser
> rig is perhaps a better investment ...
Sadly, the "fleet" is getting pretty old. There was a new AD issued on
the 400 series twin Cessnas this week requiring a "spar strap" (like the
old Beech 18 fix) to deal with fatigue cracks. $50,000! Sure feel
sorry for those folks who bought budget 414s thinking it was a lot of
airplane for the money.
The real bummer is that are just not any "manly" twins being built these
days. The Diamond Twinstar is quite impressive in it's speed and fuel
burn, but park it beside a Commander and just laugh at how silly it
looks. We need Jimbob to get his 400hp V8 project done and certified,
then start building new Commanders to hang 'em on.
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Consolation prize |
In a message dated 5/20/2003 8:16:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cschuerm(at)cox.net writes:
> Had to do those on my old Commander also. I am just
> totally amazed that there isn't an AD yet on that.
HEY, NO MORE TALK LIKE THAT. We have enough ADs on these old gals. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
Bill Bow wrote:
> Does anybody have an oil pan for an IO-470-M(found only on the 500A)?
Bill,
Is yours cracked or do you need a totally new one for some reason? I
think there's a place here in Tulsa that repairs cracked continental pans...
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Consolation prize |
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com wrote:
> HEY, NO MORE TALK LIKE THAT. We have enough ADs on these old gals.
amen! JB, we all know that it's just a matter of time before a truss
breaks on somebody. This seems like a great opportunity for you to take
some pro-active actions to get folks to inspect and repair damage before
it's too late. (in my humble opinion)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | JB how goes the Chev. conversion project? |
JB
How is the project going on the 680F(p) that you bought from Morris? Are you
going to sell any unwanted/unused parts off the bird? If so, let me know.
Thanx!
Moe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
My engines had a previous life on a 310. My good/better engine has the
correct oil pan. It lines up with the little door on the bottom of the
nacelle. My soon to be rebuilt engine had a different oil pan that did not
line up with the door. It required lining the nacelle with a garbage bag to
cut down on the oil mess when changing oil.
Zypher may add a drain in the right spot. I was just trying to have the
original if feasible.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pan
>
>
> Bill Bow wrote:
> > Does anybody have an oil pan for an IO-470-M(found only on the 500A)?
>
> Bill,
> Is yours cracked or do you need a totally new one for some reason? I
> think there's a place here in Tulsa that repairs cracked continental
pans...
>
> chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
Hey Billbo: You already know the cheapest way out......drill another hole. The
perfect fix.
Steve C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bow
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pan
My engines had a previous life on a 310. My good/better engine has the
correct oil pan. It lines up with the little door on the bottom of the
nacelle. My soon to be rebuilt engine had a different oil pan that did not
line up with the door. It required lining the nacelle with a garbage bag to
cut down on the oil mess when changing oil.
Zypher may add a drain in the right spot. I was just trying to have the
original if feasible.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pan
>
>
> Bill Bow wrote:
> > Does anybody have an oil pan for an IO-470-M(found only on the 500A)?
>
> Bill,
> Is yours cracked or do you need a totally new one for some reason? I
> think there's a place here in Tulsa that repairs cracked continental
pans...
>
> chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
I know that is the cheapest, But, if someone had a pan they would part with
for a "reasonable" price I would prefer that. There are only 12, 500A
planes left with the IO-470 engines. The market is very small and the
demand is even smaller. I wouldn't give much.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pan
>
> Hey Billbo: You already know the cheapest way out......drill another hole.
The perfect fix.
> Steve C.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Bow
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: pan
>
>
>
> My engines had a previous life on a 310. My good/better engine has the
> correct oil pan. It lines up with the little door on the bottom of the
> nacelle. My soon to be rebuilt engine had a different oil pan that did
not
> line up with the door. It required lining the nacelle with a garbage
bag to
> cut down on the oil mess when changing oil.
>
> Zypher may add a drain in the right spot. I was just trying to have the
> original if feasible.
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Schuermann" <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: pan
>
>
> >
> >
> > Bill Bow wrote:
> > > Does anybody have an oil pan for an IO-470-M(found only on the
500A)?
> >
> > Bill,
> > Is yours cracked or do you need a totally new one for some reason? I
> > think there's a place here in Tulsa that repairs cracked continental
> pans...
> >
> > chris
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: JB how goes the Chev. conversion project? |
In a message dated 5/20/2003 8:55:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
MOEMILLS(at)aol.com writes:
> If so, let me know.
>
I will indeed let you know. thanks Me. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Hamilton <fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au> |
Bill,
I know of a pair of same, removed when the aircraft was upgraded to -520's.
I will be at the hangar where they are next week, ( all going well) and
will enquire. The engines are seriously shot, but at least oil pans don't
wear, just maybe corrode.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton.
>
>Does anybody have an oil pan for an IO-470-M(found only on the 500A)?
>
>Spare me the "Call Morris" response.
>
>bilbo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 5/21/2003 4:30:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au writes:
> I know of a pair of same, removed when the aircraft was upgraded to -520's.
Aint this list a gerat resource!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
We will see.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pan
>
> In a message dated 5/21/2003 4:30:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> fighterf(at)ozemail.com.au writes:
>
> > I know of a pair of same, removed when the aircraft was upgraded
to -520's.
>
> Aint this list a gerat resource!! jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Is there a reason why some turboprops would feather their props at shutdown,
and others not?
I always thought it a good idea to prevent the prop from being turned by the
wind, which could damage the engine, but that cannot be the only reason (?)
since props have to be secured anyway, no?
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/21/03 08:41:57 Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> Is there a reason why some turboprops would feather their props at shutdown,
> and others not?
>
We can divide the world of turbo props into 2 camps (with due respect to
Rolls Royce, Lycoming, Allison and Astazu)
Garrett vs. Pratt & Whitney.
Garretts (this week a subsidiary of AlliedSignal) are fixed shaft, axial flow
turbines, meaning the whole compressor / power turbine sections hang on a
common shaft, turning the gearbox that turns the prop. Air enters the front,
mixes w/ fuel, combusts and blows out the back.
In order to start these engines, the starter/generator has to spin the whole
kit and kaboodle. A "feathered" prop would add more drag. This is why the
Garretts have "start locks" that below a certain centrifugal point, allow
pins to slide into place and hold the props at a very fine pitch during shut
down. (And why Garrett pilots hold the props in reverse during shut down:
to allow the start locks to extend and then let the blades come to rest on
them)
Pratt & Whitney are reverse flow, free turbine engines. Air enters the back,
turns 180 degrees, combusts, turns the power turbine and then drives a second
turbine -- not connected to the power stage of the engine, driving the prop
gear box. (and then gasses exhaust via another 180 degree turn at the front
of the engine.
So ... on the P&W engines, the prop in NOT connected to anything and thus the
starter doesn't care if it's in a high drag setting or not.
Note: This could be confusing because as a multi engine pilot you think of
feather as a low drag configuration. Yes, it is ... while you're in flight.
Think of the engine start process and a feathered prop is lots of drag.
As on a piston engine, low oil pressure lets the blades move to feather
position on turbo prop engines.
P&Ws do this on shut down. Garretts have those start locks to hold the
blades from feathering during shut down.
A sure way to burn up a Garrett engine is to start it w/ a feathered prop.
Did I make this whole thing confusing enough? I can go on ....
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kerry Johnson" <kerry(at)kvelectric.com> |
If you're talking about Pratt PT-6's compared to Garrett TPE-331's. I don't
think it's an option. As I understand it, the PT-6 feathers automatically so
the props won't windmill in a breeze. Since the PT-6 is a "free turbine"
design, the props would windmill with very little air movement, if they were
not feathered. The Garrett's are not a free turbine and have a gearbox, so
wind milling isn't the problem it is with the PT-6.
Anyone? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Kerry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Nico van
Niekerk
Subject: Commander-List: feathering
Is there a reason why some turboprops would feather their props at shutdown,
and others not?
I always thought it a good idea to prevent the prop from being turned by the
wind, which could damage the engine, but that cannot be the only reason (?)
since props have to be secured anyway, no?
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
PT 6 Engines Feather and Garett Have Gear Boxes
----- Original Message -----
From: Nico van Niekerk
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:41 AM
Subject: Commander-List: feathering
Is there a reason why some turboprops would feather their props at shutdown,
and others not?
I always thought it a good idea to prevent the prop from being turned by the
wind, which could damage the engine, but that cannot be the only reason (?)
since props have to be secured anyway, no?
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 05/20/03 |
In a message dated 5/21/2003 2:55:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Does anybody have an oil pan for an IO-470-M(found only on the 500A)?
>
And every Beach Bonanza from 57 to about 74 (when it went to a IO-520), And
every Beach Baron 55 model (except the C which is a 520, and Every Cessna 310
untill the Q and R models (Which are 520's also I think.)
Hey Bill, ohnestley, Call Graham Aircraft Engines and Services in Newnan, GA.
He has a big wharehouse of parts piled up from buying out old inventory from
guys who are going out of business. 770-252-9669
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IO-470 Oil Pans |
In a message dated 5/21/2003 2:55:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> My soon to be rebuilt engine had a different oil pan that did not
> line up with the door. It required lining the nacelle with a garbage bag
> to
> cut down on the oil mess when changing oil.
>
WELL ALRIGHTY THEN. Just disregard that last post about all the other stuff
being the same, and Call Graham anyway??? YOU NEVER KNOW
JetPaul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IO-470 Oil Pans |
Hey Jet,
Why is it that when I reply to JETPAUL(at)aol.com it comes back undeliverable?
It does it over and over?
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: IO-470 Oil Pans
>
> In a message dated 5/21/2003 2:55:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > My soon to be rebuilt engine had a different oil pan that did not
> > line up with the door. It required lining the nacelle with a garbage
bag
> > to
> > cut down on the oil mess when changing oil.
> >
>
> WELL ALRIGHTY THEN. Just disregard that last post about all the other
stuff
> being the same, and Call Graham anyway??? YOU NEVER KNOW
>
> JetPaul
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IO-470 Oil Pans |
Cancel the oil pan search. Zypher already has one coming. $700.00 :>(
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <JETPAUL(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: IO-470 Oil Pans
>
> In a message dated 5/21/2003 2:55:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> > My soon to be rebuilt engine had a different oil pan that did not
> > line up with the door. It required lining the nacelle with a garbage
bag
> > to
> > cut down on the oil mess when changing oil.
> >
>
> WELL ALRIGHTY THEN. Just disregard that last post about all the other
stuff
> being the same, and Call Graham anyway??? YOU NEVER KNOW
>
> JetPaul
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
I sent a test to Jetpaul abt 15 mins. ago. So far, no bounce. But Bilbo, it is
AOL and they are notorious for E/M bounces! If so want to get only 85% of you
E/M....go with AOL.!!
Steve. C.
==============================================
Hey Jet,
Why is it that when I reply to JETPAUL(at)aol.com it comes back undeliverable?
It does it over and over?
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
Dose anyone know a person or organization who can give our pilots a
flight safety-like refresher course in our Aero Commander 560A. We also
needed to get one of our pilots his MEI rating.
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Safety |
Bill,
To my knowledge no one has a course of this type. JB has contacted Flight
Safety but with no results so far. I have looked several times for training of
this kind, and can find nothing. There are a few instructors available whom
insurance companies seem to trust. This seems to be the biggest hurdle, so I
would recommend that you contact your insurance CO. If they have nothing get
back to me and I have the info. on the three instructors that were approved by
my ins. CO. Unfortunately for you, none of them are in your part of the world.
Moe Mills
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Safety |
In a message dated 05/23/03 10:24:10 Pacific Daylight Time,
billw@air-matrix.com writes:
> Dose anyone know a person or organization who can give our pilots a
> flight safety-like refresher course in our Aero Commander 560A. We also
> needed to get one of our pilots his MEI rating.
Bill,
I'm referring everyone to Rob Davids. He's an Aero Commander Designee, based
in Altaville, California.
Contact him at: N33987C(at)aol.com
phone: 209-736-0825
Good luck!
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Thanks, Chief, for the education on these engines. Your explanation was
clear and well done.
Got a couple of questions that bug me.
Why would a Sabreliner 60SC Raisbeck 9 paz Jet be sold for $299K? Or an
HS125-400 for under $500K? I can imagine that there could be time-out
engines and other problems, such as non-compliance with noise (because those
pods look awfully small in the pics) etc., but these birds hardly have 2000
hrs SMOH. It looks like good value for money but, one cannot help but
wonder.
Then, there are the MU's. An acquaintance got killed many years ago in an
MU, supposedly a runaway trim caused it to pull up into a stall after
takeoff and it crashed. Rumors are not my stock-in-trade but bad stories
about the MU's keep filtering through the hanger talk. What's your take on
it?
Finally, what should one do when a trim runs away, pulling up all the time?
If the circuit breaker doesn't pop (the ones that are flat and only pops
when there's an overload on the circuit) should the pilot rather put the
plane in a steep turn and deal with a high speed stall rather the one that
brings the plane down? There should be a point in a steep turn where full
up trim balanced with a certain amount of power would sustain flight in a
continuous turn, even if it's just to give the pilot time to get a mental
hold on the problem. How would you handle that?
Thanks
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: feathering
>
> In a message dated 05/21/03 08:41:57 Pacific Daylight Time,
> nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
>
>
> > Is there a reason why some turboprops would feather their props at
shutdown,
> > and others not?
> >
>
> We can divide the world of turbo props into 2 camps (with due respect to
> Rolls Royce, Lycoming, Allison and Astazu)
>
> Garrett vs. Pratt & Whitney.
>
> Garretts (this week a subsidiary of AlliedSignal) are fixed shaft, axial
flow
> turbines, meaning the whole compressor / power turbine sections hang on a
> common shaft, turning the gearbox that turns the prop. Air enters the
front,
> mixes w/ fuel, combusts and blows out the back.
>
> In order to start these engines, the starter/generator has to spin the
whole
> kit and kaboodle. A "feathered" prop would add more drag. This is why
the
> Garretts have "start locks" that below a certain centrifugal point, allow
> pins to slide into place and hold the props at a very fine pitch during
shut
> down. (And why Garrett pilots hold the props in reverse during shut
down:
> to allow the start locks to extend and then let the blades come to rest on
> them)
>
> Pratt & Whitney are reverse flow, free turbine engines. Air enters the
back,
> turns 180 degrees, combusts, turns the power turbine and then drives a
second
> turbine -- not connected to the power stage of the engine, driving the
prop
> gear box. (and then gasses exhaust via another 180 degree turn at the
front
> of the engine.
>
> So ... on the P&W engines, the prop in NOT connected to anything and thus
the
> starter doesn't care if it's in a high drag setting or not.
>
> Note: This could be confusing because as a multi engine pilot you think
of
> feather as a low drag configuration. Yes, it is ... while you're in
flight.
> Think of the engine start process and a feathered prop is lots of drag.
>
> As on a piston engine, low oil pressure lets the blades move to feather
> position on turbo prop engines.
>
> P&Ws do this on shut down. Garretts have those start locks to hold the
> blades from feathering during shut down.
>
> A sure way to burn up a Garrett engine is to start it w/ a feathered prop.
>
> Did I make this whole thing confusing enough? I can go on ....
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I don't know about your first two questions, but I have some experience with
the third.
I flew P-2 Neptunes in my first squadron. The P-2 had a very powerful pitch
trim system called Varicam-- it was a complex electro-hydraulic system
which when at full nose up trim in cruise flight required both pilots to
push the elevator to its nose down stop and the nose would still rise up.
Here are the procedures for "Full Runaway Up Varicam"
"Reduce power to approx. 25 in. MAP
Hold forward pressure on the yoke.
Roll into moderate bank 20-30 degrees
Lower full flaps.
With these procedures carried out, the nose of the aircraft should fall
through (assuming vertical has traveled full up) between 120- 130 knots IAS.
Wings can then be leveled and power added to maintain 115- 125 knots IAS
while holding forward yoke pressure an attempt is made to return the varicam
to neutral using the procedures outlined under Manual Operation"
We used to practice the procedure It works as advertised.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Cheap ships
>
> Thanks, Chief, for the education on these engines. Your explanation was
> clear and well done.
>
> Got a couple of questions that bug me.
>
> Why would a Sabreliner 60SC Raisbeck 9 paz Jet be sold for $299K? Or an
> HS125-400 for under $500K? I can imagine that there could be time-out
> engines and other problems, such as non-compliance with noise (because
those
> pods look awfully small in the pics) etc., but these birds hardly have
2000
> hrs SMOH. It looks like good value for money but, one cannot help but
> wonder.
>
> Then, there are the MU's. An acquaintance got killed many years ago in an
> MU, supposedly a runaway trim caused it to pull up into a stall after
> takeoff and it crashed. Rumors are not my stock-in-trade but bad stories
> about the MU's keep filtering through the hanger talk. What's your take on
> it?
>
> Finally, what should one do when a trim runs away, pulling up all the
time?
> If the circuit breaker doesn't pop (the ones that are flat and only pops
> when there's an overload on the circuit) should the pilot rather put the
> plane in a steep turn and deal with a high speed stall rather the one that
> brings the plane down? There should be a point in a steep turn where full
> up trim balanced with a certain amount of power would sustain flight in a
> continuous turn, even if it's just to give the pilot time to get a mental
> hold on the problem. How would you handle that?
>
> Thanks
> Nico
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: feathering
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 05/21/03 08:41:57 Pacific Daylight Time,
> > nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> >
> >
> > > Is there a reason why some turboprops would feather their props at
> shutdown,
> > > and others not?
> > >
> >
> > We can divide the world of turbo props into 2 camps (with due respect to
> > Rolls Royce, Lycoming, Allison and Astazu)
> >
> > Garrett vs. Pratt & Whitney.
> >
> > Garretts (this week a subsidiary of AlliedSignal) are fixed shaft, axial
> flow
> > turbines, meaning the whole compressor / power turbine sections hang on
a
> > common shaft, turning the gearbox that turns the prop. Air enters the
> front,
> > mixes w/ fuel, combusts and blows out the back.
> >
> > In order to start these engines, the starter/generator has to spin the
> whole
> > kit and kaboodle. A "feathered" prop would add more drag. This is why
> the
> > Garretts have "start locks" that below a certain centrifugal point,
allow
> > pins to slide into place and hold the props at a very fine pitch during
> shut
> > down. (And why Garrett pilots hold the props in reverse during shut
> down:
> > to allow the start locks to extend and then let the blades come to rest
on
> > them)
> >
> > Pratt & Whitney are reverse flow, free turbine engines. Air enters the
> back,
> > turns 180 degrees, combusts, turns the power turbine and then drives a
> second
> > turbine -- not connected to the power stage of the engine, driving the
> prop
> > gear box. (and then gasses exhaust via another 180 degree turn at the
> front
> > of the engine.
> >
> > So ... on the P&W engines, the prop in NOT connected to anything and
thus
> the
> > starter doesn't care if it's in a high drag setting or not.
> >
> > Note: This could be confusing because as a multi engine pilot you think
> of
> > feather as a low drag configuration. Yes, it is ... while you're in
> flight.
> > Think of the engine start process and a feathered prop is lots of drag.
> >
> > As on a piston engine, low oil pressure lets the blades move to feather
> > position on turbo prop engines.
> >
> > P&Ws do this on shut down. Garretts have those start locks to hold the
> > blades from feathering during shut down.
> >
> > A sure way to burn up a Garrett engine is to start it w/ a feathered
prop.
> >
> > Did I make this whole thing confusing enough? I can go on ....
> >
> > Wing Commander Gordon
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/25/03 00:33:54 Pacific Daylight Time,
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
> Why would a Sabreliner 60SC Raisbeck 9 paz Jet be sold for $299K? Or an
> HS125-400 for under $500K? I can imagine that there could be time-out
> engines and other problems, such as non-compliance with noise (because those
> pods look awfully small in the pics) etc
Nico,
Your powers of observation are spot on! It is the engines.
The Sabers, Jet Commanders, early Hawkers, Jet Stars, Lears, etc., were
powered by "straight pipe" turbo jets. Those ear shredding engines are not able
to
operate in most of the civilized world excepting on MediVac flights or some
off some runways (if the airport will allow) where reduced thrust take-offs can
fit those airplanes into Stage III climb noise limits.
So there are a bunch of airframes waiting for some great re-engine idea.
Just like our Commanders.
As far as the MU-2 goes, I have to be very cautious because I've never flown
one and I hate speculation and rumor mongering.
That being said, let me speculate and rumor monger. The MU-2 series have
spoilers rather than ailerons and the short body models are "short coupled" in
terms of pitch control.
The MU-2s are fitted with Motorola / Bendix M-4 series autopilots. These are
very strong auto pilots ... I've been told they were placed on the C-130 as
well as our Commanders.
It's theorized, as you hinted at, that an MU-2 can get out of trim during a
flight and when the pilot disengages for landing or the A/P faults and
disconnects, the MU-2 will do some shocking maneuvers.
Note that most MU-2 accidents are on final or final approach, near the
airport -- maybe the transition point from A/P engaged to uncoupling.
I'll take this moment to remind everyone with an autopilot to disconnect at
top of climb / acceleration and re-trim. Probably once an hour to accommodate
CG shift and again in descent.
The pitch trim run away recovery is kind of airplane specific and your idea,
plus Bill's treatment of the S-2 are typical.
But you know, there are usually many ways to depower an A/P. The yoke
disconnect switch, the A/P control head often has a power switch, the circuit
breaker and if it's Day and you're not solid IFR (or maybe if you are ...) the
Master Switch.
In terms of the MU-2, the guys who I've talked with that teach the airplane
say it's probably the "surprise" attitude the airplane takes when the A/P
disconnects rather than the A/P flying into an unusual attitude.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
Arlington, Washington, May 26, 2003: N2732B lifted off the main runway
(AWO) today on its maiden test flight since major overhaul. N2732B, an
Aero Commander 560A - the second 560A built (serial number 232) in June,
1955 by Aero Design & Engineering at Wiley Post Airport in Bethany,
Oklahoma - had under gone complete restoration by AirMatrix in its
overhaul and repair facilities (FAA Repair Station No. XLCR477P) in
Arlington.
"It was our goal to restore 2732B to as close as we could to its
factory-like new condition," stated Kelly Piper, AirMatrix's Director of
Operations and Chief Pilot, after completion of the flawless three hour
test flight. "We carefully searched the original factory drawings,
archived by Twin Commander Corporation, to get as many details as we
could, added Piper.
Every airframe system and engine part on 2732B was zero-timed during the
restoration. All Airworthiness Directives and Service Bulletins were
checked and double checked for compliance. All hoses and fluid lines
were replaced. Most of the flight control cables were replaced. Two
thirds of the wiring was replaced. Extensive corrosion control was
conducted inside and out. The eyebrow and overhead panels were
refurbished to original specifications. New windows all around and other
cosmetic touches rounded out the restoration.
While restorations are fine, 2732B was also intended to be a working
aircraft under AirMatrix's Air Carrier certificate. A complete
modernization of the instruments and avionics was also carried out in
conjunction with the restoration. A new three-module instrument panel
was fabricated. A new twenty circuit breaker panel was installed in the
overhead. The glare shield communications panel, which had been added
sometime in the distant passed, was rebuilt. And the interior was gutted
and rebuilt using airline specified Lexan formed panels.
The numerous upgrades made to 2732B include: Becker duel Prime Line
remote mounted radios and navigation receivers; a Becker remote mounted
Transponder; a Becker remote mounted GPS moving map with a 6.25 inch
display mounted in the center module of the instrument panel; two Becker
VOR/LOC/GS indicators; two Becker RMUs mounted in the glare shield
communications panel to control COM 1 an NAT
AMS50 full function audio panel with built-in Marker Beacon receiver and
six place stereo intercom was also mounted in the glare shield panel
between the RMUs; new Whelen wing tip and tail strobes; a Gemini duel
engine analyzer/monitor; AirWolf oil filters; aircraft wired David Clark
noise canceling headsets; shoulder harnesses were added at the pilot and
copilot positions, along with other custom monitoring and warning
systems.
2732B is probably the best documented bathtub nacelled Aero Commander in
the world today. Its entire restoration and upgrade was tracked in
AirMatrix's exclusive online maintenance tracking database. Over 200
work orders were generated and tracked through completion. Some 100
traceable parts were recorded. And over 700 consumable parts were
traced. In addition, every logbook entry since the aircraft left the
factory was recorded in a searchable electronic archive. Even all the
ownership records on file with the FAA were recorded and Sir Berry
certified.
AirMatrix wishes to sincerely thank the Twin Commander Flight Group
(TCFG) for all the help and support it provided throughout the overhaul
and restoration of N2732B. We hope to get the opportunity to show
everyone the fruits of our efforts in the very near future.
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 5/26/2003 6:32:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
billw@air-matrix.com writes:
> stated Kelly Piper, AirMatrix's Director of
> Operations and Chief Pilot
It appears that even Mr. "Piper" prefers a Commander!! Congratulations to
all the fine Air Matrix crew. I cant wait to see it fly!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | NICE FLIGHT/NEW MEMBER |
HI KIDS.
Let me introduce the latest TCFG member, Keith Godfrey. He is the proud new
owner of a 500B, N7AC. Keith lives in California.
I had a nice flight in old triple 2 this weekend. Sue and I went to
N. Idaho to visit her family and I spent some time with Ernie Martin, the owner
of the 560A N70D. This is the airplane originally owned by Douglas Aircraft
(It has DC-8 control wheels) I had planed on installing a set of 'Heavy
Hartzell" propellers but we were short some parts.
It was a great trip anyway and fun to see Ernie again (His other
airplanes are a Cessna Citation jet and a Grumman Mallard). I plan to visit him
again in a few weeks to help with the props and maybe do an annual for him and
fly it!!
Lost the LH Generator on this flight. Tried all the simple stuff,
must be the genorator itself wen bad :-( Otherwise had a great trip. Flew to
Sandpoint, ID to help Ernie. Then to a grass strip in Sues home town of Clark
Fork, ID. It rained the whole time and we had a great thunder storm Sunday
night. Made it hme after a long (20 kts right on the nose) bumpy trip.
Hope all is well in your Commanderland. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Congratulations! That must've been quite a treat. Hope to see her soon.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: IT FLIES!
>
> In a message dated 5/26/2003 6:32:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> billw@air-matrix.com writes:
>
> > stated Kelly Piper, AirMatrix's Director of
> > Operations and Chief Pilot
>
> It appears that even Mr. "Piper" prefers a Commander!! Congratulations to
> all the fine Air Matrix crew. I cant wait to see it fly!! jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Dettmer <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Congrats Air Matrix..!! |
Congratulations to the Air Matrix gang in Arlington..!! I enjoyed seeing
the incredible work being done to the Air Matrix Commander when at AWO last
Month.
It's great to hear that she is flying again.
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Nico;
I've been out of town for the Holiday, so this may be redundant. On heavy
iron commercial airliners, if you get an electrical 'run away trim' you
apply opposite control force which applies a break to the trim motor, then
pull the circuit breaker and manually trim (if able). That's it quick and
dirty.
Don
I thought I'd share it with the folks, Don. Good stuff. Thanks.
It sounds as if that opposite control would slide one's scotch and peanuts
sideways off the fold-out table.
Nico
--- Lowell Girod
--- dongirod(at)earthlink.net
--- Twin Commander 560 E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Girod" <dongirod(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Cheap ships
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Nico van Niekerk <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
> > To:
> > Date: 5/25/03 3:32:53 AM
> > Subject: Commander-List: Cheap ships
> >
>
> >
> > Thanks, Chief, for the education on these engines. Your explanation was
> > clear and well done.
> >
> > Got a couple of questions that bug me.
> >
> > Why would a Sabreliner 60SC Raisbeck 9 paz Jet be sold for $299K? Or an
> > HS125-400 for under $500K? I can imagine that there could be time-out
> > engines and other problems, such as non-compliance with noise (because
> those
> > pods look awfully small in the pics) etc., but these birds hardly have
> 2000
> > hrs SMOH. It looks like good value for money but, one cannot help but
> > wonder.
> >
> > Then, there are the MU's. An acquaintance got killed many years ago in
an
> > MU, supposedly a runaway trim caused it to pull up into a stall after
> > takeoff and it crashed. Rumors are not my stock-in-trade but bad stories
> > about the MU's keep filtering through the hanger talk. What's your take
on
> > it?
> >
> > Finally, what should one do when a trim runs away, pulling up all the
> time?
> > If the circuit breaker doesn't pop (the ones that are flat and only pops
> > when there's an overload on the circuit) should the pilot rather put the
> > plane in a steep turn and deal with a high speed stall rather the one
that
> > brings the plane down? There should be a point in a steep turn where
full
> > up trim balanced with a certain amount of power would sustain flight in
a
> > continuous turn, even if it's just to give the pilot time to get a
mental
> > hold on the problem. How would you handle that?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Nico
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to Jerry
Hill,
Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are working on.
Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and would
probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a generic
training device.
Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
"warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be commiserate
with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are considered the
"Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Capt. J,
That's something I would be interested in and would benefit from. I need to
get a new policy quickly, so the timing is perfect!
/John
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: INSURANCE
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
> availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to
Jerry Hill,
> Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are
working on.
> Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
> attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and
would
> probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a
generic
> training device.
> Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
> "warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be
commiserate
> with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are
considered the
> "Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Steele" <bob.steele(at)kzf.com> |
JB,
I would be interested.
Bob Steele
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Subject: Commander-List: INSURANCE
HI KIDS.
I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to
Jerry Hill,
Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are working
on.
Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and
would
probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a generic
training device.
Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
"warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be
commiserate
with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are considered
the
"Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
Thanks!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
Thanks!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jimmy Rodriguez" <jimmyr(at)popsecs.com> |
Jimbob,
You can count me in.
Jimmy Rodriguez
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Subject: Commander-List: INSURANCE
HI KIDS.
I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to
Jerry Hill,
Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are working
on.
Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and
would
probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a generic
training device.
Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
"warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be
commiserate
with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are considered
the
"Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
I would be interested, if it would have an affect on rates. Currently I am
paying just over $3K, for hull coverage, $1mil/$100K liability, & $100K/$3K
medical payments, with about 2000 hrs total itme & 550 hrs multi. I've had
quotes for more than double that figure.
Thanks,
Randy Dettmer
680F/N6253X
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: INSURANCE
>
> HI KIDS.
>
> I just had another request (concern) regarding the price and
> availability of insurance for the piston Commander. I have a call in to
Jerry Hill,
> Flight Safety, to get an update regarding the ground school they are
working on.
> Mt question to you, our group, is, how many of you would be committed to
> attend a certified ground school?? This would be a 3 - 4 day course and
would
> probably include a 1 - 2 day "generic" instrument refresher using a
generic
> training device.
> Completion of this course should give the insurance underwriter a
> "warm & fuzzy" feeling and hopefully lower rates. The cost will be
commiserate
> with other training programs offered by FS, and remember they are
considered the
> "Cadillac" of training organizations. Thanks jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
JB
I would commit for sure.
Moe Mills
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
JB:
We'd be interested. As you know, we've been looking for an insurance
approved program and have located one possible in California. I'll let
everyone know what we turn up.
Best,
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fran Myers" <myersf(at)attbi.com> |
Hello All,
Having worked at Flight Safety my thoughts would be whether or not the
cost of the insurance savings would be greater than the ground school.
If you're a low time pilot who can't get insurance, any recognized
ground school would be good. However if you're high time, it may not be
economically sound to pay 2 to 5k for a ground school when you get
premiums lowered 500 to 1000 dollars.
I also would question just how much a Flight Safety Instructor knows
about Commanders with the age of the fleet. I am probably stepping in it
now, but you can really be misled. FSI instructors can be really great
at the books but not overly knowledgeable of real world information. It
sounds like the person your dealing with has the knowledge but be
careful.
Either way expect a VERY intense experience.
Fran Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
MOEMILLS(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE
JB
I would commit for sure.
Moe Mills
N680RR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/29/03 15:33:52 Pacific Daylight Time, myersf(at)attbi.com
writes:
> I also would question just how much a Flight Safety Instructor knows
> about Commanders with the age of the fleet. I am probably stepping in it
> now, but you can really be misled. FSI instructors can be really great
> at the books but not overly knowledgeable of real world information. It
> sounds like the person your dealing with has the knowledge but be
> careful.
>
I'm going to form up on Fran's wing here and add my agreement.
Unless FSI builds an entire program on the piston models and the generic IFR
trainer is configured as a Commander, I'm not sure what the benefit would be,
other than making the insurance underwriters happy.
To be sure, insurance underwriters need to be made happy but keep in mind the
average Flight Safety program costs upward of $5000 for recurrent.
And do you want to train in multi engine IFR procedures in a Navajo simulator
or some other generic type? Commanders -- especially geared engine models --
are too different in technique and procedure than other multiengine models.
I'd fully support a FSI or similar program if it was worth the cost. I don't
want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for this type of training but let's get a
read on projected price and course content.
What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering provided by
vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their insured attended
16 hours of class room instruction?
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm on this wing.
Randy D is paying about the same as I am and I have a lot more total time
and multi time. I think a TCFG ground school would work better. and be
more practical.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE
>
> In a message dated 05/29/03 15:33:52 Pacific Daylight Time,
myersf(at)attbi.com
> writes:
>
>
> > I also would question just how much a Flight Safety Instructor knows
> > about Commanders with the age of the fleet. I am probably stepping in it
> > now, but you can really be misled. FSI instructors can be really great
> > at the books but not overly knowledgeable of real world information. It
> > sounds like the person your dealing with has the knowledge but be
> > careful.
> >
>
> I'm going to form up on Fran's wing here and add my agreement.
>
> Unless FSI builds an entire program on the piston models and the generic
IFR
> trainer is configured as a Commander, I'm not sure what the benefit would
be,
> other than making the insurance underwriters happy.
>
> To be sure, insurance underwriters need to be made happy but keep in mind
the
> average Flight Safety program costs upward of $5000 for recurrent.
>
> And do you want to train in multi engine IFR procedures in a Navajo
simulator
> or some other generic type? Commanders -- especially geared engine
models --
> are too different in technique and procedure than other multiengine
models.
>
> I'd fully support a FSI or similar program if it was worth the cost. I
don't
> want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for this type of training but let's get
a
> read on projected price and course content.
>
> What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
> accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering
provided by
> vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
>
> We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
> training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their
insured attended
> 16 hours of class room instruction?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tylor Hall" <tylor(at)winddancer.aero> |
I too am facing high cost of insurance. I was quoted $7,000 per year for a
500B.
I would like to offer my FBO location with training room, discount on fuel,
and I may have a Gold Seal Instructor with experience in Twin Commanders to
do the training if we can't talk Wind Commander Gordon to run it.
Regards,
Tylor Hall
Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
970-731-2127
What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering provided
by
vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their insured
attended
16 hours of class room instruction?
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barshalom(at)aol.com |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barshalom(at)aol.com |
JB,
Count me in.
N69PT
Bill Culwell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fran Myers" <myersf(at)attbi.com> |
I have one other suggestion that would maybe make the seminar better.
Get one of the Check Haulers that operate or operated commanders. I am
thinking of someone like Suburban Air Freight. Contact the Chief Pilot
or Director of Training and have them come for a visit that would entail
a two or whatever day training the TCFG is willing to pay for.
Then find out what the operators insurance company is and before the
seminar make a deal on rates for attendees.
I am not sure Suburban Air Freight or any other operators still operate
commanders. This should be easy to find out. From personal experience in
the check hauling industry, there is no better place to learn about a
specific type of aircraft (mine was in C310's and PA60's with Air Net).
Plus they will have all the practical experience (how much Ice, just how
heavy is too heavy, what really happens when this pump fails) and a
training program already made.
Food for thought
Fran
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ProgSearch(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Commanders For Sale |
Hello All,
For anyone that is interested I have two 500S Aero Commanders for sale. If
you want the details email me and I will provide.
Also, I have a 500U out of annual for sale.
Thanks,
Kevin Coons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
As I understand it Suburban is running 2 or 3 680FL's in Alaska.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fran Myers" <myersf(at)attbi.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE
>
> I have one other suggestion that would maybe make the seminar better.
>
> Get one of the Check Haulers that operate or operated commanders. I am
> thinking of someone like Suburban Air Freight. Contact the Chief Pilot
> or Director of Training and have them come for a visit that would entail
> a two or whatever day training the TCFG is willing to pay for.
>
> Then find out what the operators insurance company is and before the
> seminar make a deal on rates for attendees.
>
> I am not sure Suburban Air Freight or any other operators still operate
> commanders. This should be easy to find out. From personal experience in
> the check hauling industry, there is no better place to learn about a
> specific type of aircraft (mine was in C310's and PA60's with Air Net).
> Plus they will have all the practical experience (how much Ice, just how
> heavy is too heavy, what really happens when this pump fails) and a
> training program already made.
>
> Food for thought
> Fran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/29/03 20:15:25 Pacific Daylight Time, myersf(at)attbi.com
writes:
> Get one of the Check Haulers that operate or operated commanders. I am
> thinking of someone like Suburban Air Freight. Contact the Chief Pilot
> or Director of Training and have them come for a visit that would entail
> a two or whatever day training the TCFG is willing to pay for.
>
Fran,
You're kind of new to the list but your input is golden.
Suburban Air Frieght was so successful with Commander 680-FLs that their
customers demanded more service and they moved up to Beech 1900s to win the
contracts.
Central Airlines of Kansas City, MO, would be the ones to hook up with.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
I think it might also be time to bring attention to the articles in Flying
Magazine about twin versus single. Flying has admitted that in the past,
some articles and numbers have been inadvertently bias towards singles being
safer than twins. Reason being when a twin lands safely there may not be a
report. Conversely, you only hear about one when it crashes.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE
>
> In a message dated 05/29/03 20:15:25 Pacific Daylight Time,
myersf(at)attbi.com
> writes:
>
>
> > Get one of the Check Haulers that operate or operated commanders. I am
> > thinking of someone like Suburban Air Freight. Contact the Chief Pilot
> > or Director of Training and have them come for a visit that would entail
> > a two or whatever day training the TCFG is willing to pay for.
> >
>
> Fran,
>
> You're kind of new to the list but your input is golden.
>
> Suburban Air Frieght was so successful with Commander 680-FLs that their
> customers demanded more service and they moved up to Beech 1900s to win
the
> contracts.
>
> Central Airlines of Kansas City, MO, would be the ones to hook up with.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
JB,
In the news letter the crash of the South Carolina Shrike was attributed to
"miss fueling".
What does that mean?
The fuel hose missed the filler hole? The fuel missed the tank? The wrong
fuel was pumped into the tank? The wrong amount of the right fuel was
pumped into the tank?
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
I'm pretty sure they fueled the airplane with Jet-A.
I seem to recall that Bob Hoover could tell a good story about having the
same thing happen in his Shrike.
One of the FIRST things I learned when I got my airplane was that you ALWAYS
stood by or participated when somebody else was fueling your airplane.
/J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Commander-List: fuel
>
> JB,
>
> In the news letter the crash of the South Carolina Shrike was attributed
to
> "miss fueling".
>
> What does that mean?
>
> The fuel hose missed the filler hole? The fuel missed the tank? The
wrong
> fuel was pumped into the tank? The wrong amount of the right fuel was
> pumped into the tank?
>
> bilbo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 05/29/03 22:06:59 Pacific Daylight Time, john(at)vormbaum.com
writes:
> I'm pretty sure they fueled the airplane with Jet-A.
>
> I seem to recall that Bob Hoover could tell a good story about having the
> same thing happen in his Shrike.
>
> One of the FIRST things I learned when I got my airplane was that you ALWAYS
> stood by or participated when somebody else was fueling your airplane.
>
Saying as how some nozzle jockeys will work extra hard to get a square jet
nozzle into a round avgas fuel port, here's an Old Indian Trick:
Say you were fueled while you were away from your piston Commander and you
want to make sure you didn't get Jet Juice.
Draw a sample from the sump.
Drop a few drops on a piece of paper. (Steal a sheet of paper from the
printer in the FBO)
Avgas will evaporate, leaving a slight color stain.
Jet A mixed in avgas will leave an oily splotch on the paper.
There it is. Your almost-free-field-fuel-test kit.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Lyle" <JLyle(at)magmutual.com> |
I agree, a TCFG school would be my first choice.
James Lyle
N11L
>>> bowing74(at)earthlink.net 05/29 8:04 PM >>>
I'm on this wing.
Randy D is paying about the same as I am and I have a lot more total time
and multi time. I think a TCFG ground school would work better. and be
more practical.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: INSURANCE
>
> In a message dated 05/29/03 15:33:52 Pacific Daylight Time,
myersf(at)attbi.com
> writes:
>
>
> > I also would question just how much a Flight Safety Instructor knows
> > about Commanders with the age of the fleet. I am probably stepping in it
> > now, but you can really be misled. FSI instructors can be really great
> > at the books but not overly knowledgeable of real world information. It
> > sounds like the person your dealing with has the knowledge but be
> > careful.
> >
>
> I'm going to form up on Fran's wing here and add my agreement.
>
> Unless FSI builds an entire program on the piston models and the generic
IFR
> trainer is configured as a Commander, I'm not sure what the benefit would
be,
> other than making the insurance underwriters happy.
>
> To be sure, insurance underwriters need to be made happy but keep in mind
the
> average Flight Safety program costs upward of $5000 for recurrent.
>
> And do you want to train in multi engine IFR procedures in a Navajo
simulator
> or some other generic type? Commanders -- especially geared engine
models --
> are too different in technique and procedure than other multiengine
models.
>
> I'd fully support a FSI or similar program if it was worth the cost. I
don't
> want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for this type of training but let's get
a
> read on projected price and course content.
>
> What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
> accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering
provided by
> vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
>
> We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
> training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their
insured attended
> 16 hours of class room instruction?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
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Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Stubbs" <br549phil(at)mindspring.com> |
Just went through the insurance game this month myself. Avemco, who was
great last year at $3600 for $1mil/100k/seat and $100k hull for a new
Commander driver, quoted $4200 for the renewal. They wanted me to get a
BFR in the Commander with "a" flight instructer but did not care if the
instructer had ever seen a Commander.
Someone on the list suggested Aircraft Insurance Agency (800-232-1953) a
while back and they quoted $2900 for the same limits. I have 11,000 TT
8000MEL and 55 in Twin Commanders.
> [Original Message]
> From: Tylor Hall <tylor(at)winddancer.aero>
> To:
> Date: 5/29/2003 8:09:03 PM
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE
>
>
> I too am facing high cost of insurance. I was quoted $7,000 per year for
a
> 500B.
>
> I would like to offer my FBO location with training room, discount on
fuel,
> and I may have a Gold Seal Instructor with experience in Twin Commanders
to
> do the training if we can't talk Wind Commander Gordon to run it.
>
> Regards,
> Tylor Hall
> Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
> 2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
> 970-731-2127
>
>
> What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
> accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering
provided
> by
> vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
>
> We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
> training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their
insured
> attended
> 16 hours of class room instruction?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
You velly smart Mr. Commander man.
----- Original Message -----
From: <CloudCraft(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: fuel
>
> In a message dated 05/29/03 22:06:59 Pacific Daylight Time,
john(at)vormbaum.com
> writes:
>
>
> > I'm pretty sure they fueled the airplane with Jet-A.
> >
> > I seem to recall that Bob Hoover could tell a good story about having
the
> > same thing happen in his Shrike.
> >
> > One of the FIRST things I learned when I got my airplane was that you
ALWAYS
> > stood by or participated when somebody else was fueling your airplane.
> >
>
> Saying as how some nozzle jockeys will work extra hard to get a square jet
> nozzle into a round avgas fuel port, here's an Old Indian Trick:
>
> Say you were fueled while you were away from your piston Commander and you
> want to make sure you didn't get Jet Juice.
>
> Draw a sample from the sump.
>
> Drop a few drops on a piece of paper. (Steal a sheet of paper from the
> printer in the FBO)
>
> Avgas will evaporate, leaving a slight color stain.
>
> Jet A mixed in avgas will leave an oily splotch on the paper.
>
> There it is. Your almost-free-field-fuel-test kit.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 5/29/2003 10:02:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bowing74(at)earthlink.net writes:
> The fuel hose missed the filler hole? The fuel missed the tank? The wrong
> fuel was pumped into the tank? The wrong amount of the right fuel was
> pumped into the tank?
>
JET FUEL. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ProgSearch(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | 135 Operators of Commanders for insurance premium purposes |
during fly-in
FYI,
John Towner of Central Air Southwest Airlines the nations largest commercial
operator of piston commanders will attending this years TCFG fly-in. In
addition, John is speaking on Saturday Sept 13 at approximately 11am on what it
takes to keep 35 piston commanders in the air. He will also be discussing his
STC'd TKS system for 500B,U, & S commanders. Certified for flight into known icing
conditions.
I flew for central Air Southwest in 2001-2002 and I have asked John to speak
at the fly-in and he has agreed to accept. He has provided me with tremendous
support from an operational and technical standpoint when I deliver airplanes
to Europe or throughout the US. He is extremely knowledgeable about
Commanders.
If the group would like me to I am willing to approach John about developing
a training program to be conducted during the fly-ins on an annual basis.
Ground school and checkride. He has several MEI's who fly for him who have more
than 5000 hrs in commanders. John is also the companies designated examiner.
Central Air has in excess of 3 million flight hours in Commanders over a 30 year
history.
Kevin Coons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MOEMILLS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Crash at Grand Canyon of 520 |
Fellow Commander drivers,
Have just heard that a 520 crashed on take off at the Grand Canyon. GNC (?)
Apparently it was out of Rialto, Calif. airport. Does anyone have any info?
I was at GNC for the long week end and did not see a Commander other than
ours (N680RR), and we are doing just fine.
Moe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Lundborg" <dltafolk(at)inreach.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commanders For Sale |
Please send info on the commanders....You must be blessed ....having three
Commanders!
Craig Lundborg
----- Original Message -----
From: <ProgSearch(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale
>
> Hello All,
>
> For anyone that is interested I have two 500S Aero Commanders for sale. If
> you want the details email me and I will provide.
>
> Also, I have a 500U out of annual for sale.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin Coons
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Commanders For Sale |
Let me know if you would like to cheap lease one to Search & Rescue here in
Vancouver Canada until we can obtain a 680FLP.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ProgSearch(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Commanders For Sale
>
> Hello All,
>
> For anyone that is interested I have two 500S Aero Commanders for sale. If
> you want the details email me and I will provide.
>
> Also, I have a 500U out of annual for sale.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin Coons
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Crash at Grand Canyon of 520 |
According to the FAA's Preliminary Accident/Incident Report, the accident
occurred on May 28th at Tusayan, Arizona.
N64Ts, a Model 500B, serial number 1442-156 was on takeoff from runway 21 when
it "crashed under unknown circumstances". Four on board. One seriously injured,
3 minor injuries.
I had the pleasure of meeting the owners, Joe Ciabattoni and Merlin Patrick at
the TCAC University in Scottsdale, in 1999.
Let's hope the injuries are not too serious and all make a full and speedy
recovery.
The Commander is classified as destroyed.
Barry C.
----- Original Message -----
From: <MOEMILLS(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Crash at Grand Canyon of 520
|
| Fellow Commander drivers,
|
| Have just heard that a 520 crashed on take off at the Grand Canyon. GNC (?)
| Apparently it was out of Rialto, Calif. airport. Does anyone have any info?
|
| I was at GNC for the long week end and did not see a Commander other than
| ours (N680RR), and we are doing just fine.
|
| Moe
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Commanders For Sale |
Kevin Coons:
We'd like to hear about your Commanders that are for sale.
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McNulty" <JMcNulty(at)socalpizza.com> |
JB -
I would be a definite "in" as well - and would even contract for annual
re-ups if necessary.
Regards,
John McNulty
89PK 680F(P)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
I just went through the insurance bit for my 500A also and mine was $3550
for $120,000 hul and $1mil$100,000. I have 19000 hrs total, about 17000
multi with 600 in my 500A.I have an open pilot policy.
Jim Addington
N444BD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phil
Stubbs
Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE
Just went through the insurance game this month myself. Avemco, who was
great last year at $3600 for $1mil/100k/seat and $100k hull for a new
Commander driver, quoted $4200 for the renewal. They wanted me to get a
BFR in the Commander with "a" flight instructer but did not care if the
instructer had ever seen a Commander.
Someone on the list suggested Aircraft Insurance Agency (800-232-1953) a
while back and they quoted $2900 for the same limits. I have 11,000 TT
8000MEL and 55 in Twin Commanders.
> [Original Message]
> From: Tylor Hall <tylor(at)winddancer.aero>
> To:
> Date: 5/29/2003 8:09:03 PM
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: INSURANCE
>
>
> I too am facing high cost of insurance. I was quoted $7,000 per year for
a
> 500B.
>
> I would like to offer my FBO location with training room, discount on
fuel,
> and I may have a Gold Seal Instructor with experience in Twin Commanders
to
> do the training if we can't talk Wind Commander Gordon to run it.
>
> Regards,
> Tylor Hall
> Wind Dancer Aviation Services, Inc.
> 2V1, Pagosa Springs, CO
> 970-731-2127
>
>
> What if the TCFG Fly-In was 2 days of ground school and attendees paid
> accordingly? This would off-set the usual content of the gathering
provided
> by
> vendors of products and services and help pay for the venue.
>
> We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
> training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their
insured
> attended
> 16 hours of class room instruction?
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ProgSearch(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Commanders For Sale |
Bill,
Thanks for your interest. Let me start off by saying that these are not my
airplanes. I am simply trying to help the owners out. Attached are to MS word
documents regarding the 500S commanders.
The 500U I will have to fax if you want to see the particulars?
The asking price is on each sheet. Both of these Shrikes are in South
America.
Thanks,
Kevin Coons
PS I have some pictures if you want to see them.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ProgSearch(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Commanders For Sale |
Tom,
The owners are hungry for cash and don't want to lease them out at this time.
Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 5/29/2003 4:40:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
CloudCraft(at)aol.com writes:
> We have some insurance industry people on this list. How much flight
> training (if any?) would be needed to satisfy underwriters, if their insured
> attended
Lets work on it. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS.
I had a good day on Saturday last. Bill Williams from Air
Matrix, flew their brand new 560A Commander down from Arlington. It was soooooo
good to hear those great engines as he came into the pattern and later
blasted off!! The airplane is just beautiful and it warms my heart to see these
old
gals back in service.
Also, TCFG member George Yundt gave me an early Christmas gift. He
had bid and won a 33.3 speed album selling the 680FL airplane. He copied it to
a CD and then donated the original (and a CD) to the group! thanks so much!!
I already have a similar record selling the general attributes of owning a
biz airplane and the Commander, but I have yet to hear it. I [pan to bring both
of them to the fly-in along with a bun ch of my old ads and other memorabilia
to shear with the attendees. Hope all of you will make it. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schuermann <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
Howdy guys. I know this isn't commander related, but since there
doesn't appear to be a PA-23 group on the planet I thought I'd ask:
I'm looking for a couple of parts - if anyone has any pointers, please
pass along.
-Complete nose gear for a late model Apache or earlier Aztec
-A Lycoming O-540-B1A5 - will consider anything from core to new
thanks,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 6/4/2003 6:32:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cschuerm(at)cox.net writes:
> -A Lycoming O-540-B1A5 - will consider anything from core to new
>
I think I saw a pair in the latiest TAP. Good luck. jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
HI KIDS..
I just got off the phone with John Bosch form commander Aero. We had
a great chat about the upcoming flyin. IT IS TIME TO REGISTER!! So far the
registration has been ahead of normal!! But, there are still tons of you that
have not sent in your paperwork.
This will be by far the best flyin yet. I just found out John Towner
will be speaking about maintaining 35 piston Commanders. Lets make this the
best attended flyin ever. Thanks jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
It will be the best flyins ever for me if I can get ahold of a 680FLP.
Currently on day four of a search for a missing C182 jump plane.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Commander-List: FLY-IN!!!!
>
> HI KIDS..
> I just got off the phone with John Bosch form commander Aero. We
had
> a great chat about the upcoming flyin. IT IS TIME TO REGISTER!! So far
the
> registration has been ahead of normal!! But, there are still tons of you
that
> have not sent in your paperwork.
> This will be by far the best flyin yet. I just found out John
Towner
> will be speaking about maintaining 35 piston Commanders. Lets make this
the
> best attended flyin ever. Thanks jb
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | pumps n things part 2 |
I posted this about 3 weeks ago and believe it deserves a follow up. Below
is the original post relative to the hydraulic pump.
> I removed the Pesco Hydraulic pump because it STILL leaks. I contacted
> Aircraft Accessories of OK and explained that in August of last year I
paid
> them $269.00 to fix a leak. In January I had to pay another $169.00 to
get
> the same repair fixed, and now it was leaking again. David Dutton said he
> would warrantee it. At least this time they are doing the honorable
thing.
I recieved the pump back last Friday from Aircraft Accessories of OK with no
bill. I called and spoke to David Dutton about the pump. They found there
were some threads, in one pump half, that were bad. After the pump was run
and cooled a few cycles it would leak. I was GIVEN a new pump housing for
the one with the bad threads. I have not run the pump yet since my engine
is not back from OH yet so I do not know if it leaks or not.
Assuming it does not leak. Aircraft Accessories of OK is "OK" in my book. I
was told they do not warrantee repairs only overhauls. My case was, I sent
it in for the same leak three times.
I think they are great.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Crow <k4cpx(at)arrl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: pumps n things part 2 |
It feels so good when you stop beating me!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bow
To: commanderlist
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 9:33 AM
Subject: Commander-List: pumps n things part 2
I posted this about 3 weeks ago and believe it deserves a follow up. Below
is the original post relative to the hydraulic pump.
> I removed the Pesco Hydraulic pump because it STILL leaks. I contacted
> Aircraft Accessories of OK and explained that in August of last year I
paid
> them $269.00 to fix a leak. In January I had to pay another $169.00 to
get
> the same repair fixed, and now it was leaking again. David Dutton said he
> would warrantee it. At least this time they are doing the honorable
thing.
I recieved the pump back last Friday from Aircraft Accessories of OK with no
bill. I called and spoke to David Dutton about the pump. They found there
were some threads, in one pump half, that were bad. After the pump was run
and cooled a few cycles it would leak. I was GIVEN a new pump housing for
the one with the bad threads. I have not run the pump yet since my engine
is not back from OH yet so I do not know if it leaks or not.
Assuming it does not leak. Aircraft Accessories of OK is "OK" in my book. I
was told they do not warrantee repairs only overhauls. My case was, I sent
it in for the same leak three times.
I think they are great.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: pumps n things part 2 |
It's so nice to hear of someone who doesn't nit-pick his customers to find a
reason to burn them. They, like I do, believe that a customer that's already
in your door is a very precious thing.
This is a small community and word travels fast. Especially the bad ones.
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Crow" <k4cpx(at)arrl.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pumps n things part 2
>
> It feels so good when you stop beating me!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Bow
> To: commanderlist
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 9:33 AM
> Subject: Commander-List: pumps n things part 2
>
>
>
> I posted this about 3 weeks ago and believe it deserves a follow up.
Below
> is the original post relative to the hydraulic pump.
>
> > I removed the Pesco Hydraulic pump because it STILL leaks. I
contacted
> > Aircraft Accessories of OK and explained that in August of last year I
> paid
> > them $269.00 to fix a leak. In January I had to pay another $169.00
to
> get
> > the same repair fixed, and now it was leaking again. David Dutton
said he
> > would warrantee it. At least this time they are doing the honorable
> thing.
>
> I recieved the pump back last Friday from Aircraft Accessories of OK
with no
> bill. I called and spoke to David Dutton about the pump. They found
there
> were some threads, in one pump half, that were bad. After the pump was
run
> and cooled a few cycles it would leak. I was GIVEN a new pump housing
for
> the one with the bad threads. I have not run the pump yet since my
engine
> is not back from OH yet so I do not know if it leaks or not.
>
> Assuming it does not leak. Aircraft Accessories of OK is "OK" in my
book. I
> was told they do not warrantee repairs only overhauls. My case was, I
sent
> it in for the same leak three times.
>
> I think they are great.
>
> bilbo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | YOURTCFG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: pumps n things part 2 |
Great post, thanks!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: pumps n things part 2 |
Hey we didn't get to see it....
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: pumps n things part 2
>
> Great post, thanks!! jb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Victor Fernandez Cochon" <vfc(at)fernandezgonzalez.com> |
Hello,
I was wondering if anyone could help me on the following. I'm about ready to change
the airplane instrument panel on my 500, I need to know which aluminum Sheet
I need to buy, alloy, temper and thickness. (2024? 6061? or 7575? T3, T4
-0??? and in 0.250 opr 0.125 inches thick)
Any help is greatly appreciated,
Thanks
Victor
________________________________________________________________________________
Dose anyone know where we can lay our hands on a Nose Steering Cylinder
P/N EA930?
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D (AWO)
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
I saw a video clip of the Bonanza 36 that went nose first into the apartment
building here in Los Angeles a couple of minutes after takeoff from Santa
Monica. Whether it was a video from a witness who happened to have his video
camera pointing in that direction or whether it was a security surveilance
tape through whose field of vision it happened to plunge, I cannot say.
But when a civilian plane with docile characteristics such as a Beech goes
down straight like that, I mean vertical in all respects, it doesn't seem to
jive with its recovery capabilities. With such speed that plane had to have
its nose come up. Does this look like suicide?
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nico van Niekerk" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Folks, take a look at this Lear 35 in cruise. Look specifically at the tail
plane. Is that sucker pitched at an acute angle or what? Is that what it
takes to keep the nose on the horizon? That must be a huge drag! How
critical is it load heavier pax further back rather than anywhere where
there's an empty seat?
Some experts care to educate us?
Nico
http://www.acu.org/aviation/learjet/lear35.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Bonanza crash |
Review the terms:
Aft CG
Departure Stall
Fly Safe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
Yes I Have one
Harry 321-267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Williams
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 4:25 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
Dose anyone know where we can lay our hands on a Nose Steering Cylinder
P/N EA930?
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D (AWO)
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Harry:
Please ship the nose wheel steering cylinder to the address below by UPS
ground.
Bill Williams
AirMatrix
17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D (AWO)
Arlington, WA 98223-7898
tel: 360-435-7343
fax: 360-435-8193
billw@air-matrix.com
www.air-matrix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wind Dancer aviation |
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Just wanted to drop a quick note about one of our member's fine
establishments. Just last week I ferried one of my CJ's (for those of
you new to the list, or me, that's a military trainer, not a kerosene
sucking bug smasher) to Colorado where I said goodbye to her. On the
way there stopped in at Pagosa Springs - in a beautiful part of the San
Juan mountains in southern Colorado, just east of Durango -to check out
Tylor Hall's Wind Dancer aviation, say hi, and hang out for a bit before
moving on to consummate the deal on the CJ.
Well the party picking up the CJ was held up by Wx so I stayed the night
in Pagosa. Tylor was a great host and he really is going to have a
first rate FBO when it is all said and done. The mechanic (a gal) does
really nice work. With the extra time I ended up giving several rides
in the CJ before heading over the ridge for my last flight in N99YK. I
had a great time and highly recommend stopping in to visit Tylor and
Wind Dancer if you are ever in the area.
Cheers,
Barry
Barry Hancock
Director of Operations
Red Stars, Inc.
949.300.5510
www.allredstar.com
"Communism - Lousy Politics, Great Airplanes"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Barry Hancock <radialpower(at)cox.net> |
Hi again,
Morris is currently doing the annual on my 680E. Unfortunately we have
confirmed that the landing gear trusses and engine mounts need to be
replaced. Otherwise it is a nice airplane.
At this point I would like to sell the airplane at a reduced value based
on the work that needs to be done. When the work is completed it will
be the most mechanically sound 680E flying (or at least as good as
JB's:).
If anyone is interested in picking up a 680E with great running, lowish
mid-time engines, a nice IFR avionics package, and a good interior at a
reduced price, let me know. All AD's and SB's are current.
Please email me off list or contact me via cell phone @ 949.300.5510
Cheers,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Kucheck <Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com> |
| Subject: | New to group; Looking for first Commander |
All:
I have been lurking for a while now, having joined TCFG a couple of months
ago. I am looking for my first Twin Commander and I have to say, this group
has been a real education. I have begun to feel that I know a few of you
already; at least your email personas. ;>)
I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I am still trying to figure out how
to convince my wife that it is really essential to have TWO airplanes. I'm
instrument rated and current, a low-time guy [about 400 hours], just about
to get my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole "geared vs. direct"
war [I am open to either], I would be interested in any thoughts about
getting into one's first Commander: particular things to watch out for, etc.
Clearly a good pre-buy is essential.
I have been watching the ads, talking to a few owners. There does not
appear to be a lot of turnover right now - an occasional 500A, always a few
B models [though some very high time] and a handful of Shrikes. The latter
are clearly outside my budget. The B's seem to command higher prices [I
suppose that Colemill-converted A's, with HP in the same league as that of
the Bs command the same prices]. In fact, I have seen one B model [with
~13,000 hours TT] advertised for exactly the same price an A that had 10,000
hours fewer TTAF.
My interest has been piqued recently by a particular 500A. So to you "A"
drivers out there:
* Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have "B envy", and
are just biding your time until you can get into a B, S, or maybe something
geared?
* Can you tell me what you typically cruise at and what the fuel
burn is? My missions don't typically involve high density-altitude
departures; I will not be at max gross most of the time. I love speed as
much as the next guy but also appreciate fuel economy when it can be had
without compromising safety.
* Going into SNA I am forever being asked to "keep my speed up" til
the FAF and the relatively high max gear extension speed of the Deb [143Kts]
helps quite a bit. Can you confirm max gear extension speed on the 500A is
156Kts?
* Is the fact that there are so few "original" 500A's out there
starting to cause any parts availability problems?
My intent is to first acquire the right airplane and then 2 or 3 partners. I
am based in Orange County, CA [the Debonair is hangared at SNA], so if there
are potential partners out there, let's talk.
thanks,
Alan
All:
I have been lurking for a while now, having joined TCFG a
couple of months ago. I am looking for my first Twin Commander and I have
to say, this group has been a real education. I have begun to feel that I
know a few of you already; at least your email personas. ;)
I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I am still trying to
figure out how to convince my wife that it is really essential to have TWO
airplanes. I'm instrument rated and current, a low-time guy [about 400
hours], just about to get my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole
"geared vs. direct" war [I am open to either], I would be
interested in any thoughts about getting into one's first Commander:
particular things to watch out for, etc. Clearly a good pre-buy is essential.
I have been watching the ads, talking to a few owners.
There does not appear to be a lot of turnover right now - an occasional
500A, always a few B models [though some very high time] and a handful of
Shrikes. The latter are clearly outside my budget. The B's
seem to command higher prices [I suppose that Colemill-converted A's,
with HP in the same league as that of the Bs command the same prices]. In
fact, I have seen one B model [with ~13,000 hours TT] advertised for exactly
the same price an A that had 10,000 hours fewer TTAF.
My interest has been piqued recently by a particular
500A. So to you "A" drivers out there:
*
Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have
"B envy", and are just biding your time until you can get into a B,
S, or maybe something geared?
*
Can you tell me what you typically cruise at and what
the fuel burn is? My
missions don't typically involve high density-altitude departures; I will
not be at max gross most of the time. I love speed as much as the next guy but
also appreciate fuel economy when it can be had without compromising safety.
*
Going into SNA I am forever being asked to
"keep my speed up" til the FAF and the relatively high max gear
extension speed of the Deb [143Kts] helps quite a bit. Can you confirm max gear
extension speed on the 500A is 156Kts?
*
Is the fact that there are so few
"original" 500A's out there starting to cause any parts
availability problems?
My intent is to first acquire the right airplane and then 2
or 3 partners. I am based in Orange County, CA [the Debonair
is hangared at SNA], so if there are potential partners out there, let's
talk.
thanks,
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TILLMAN333(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: New to group; Looking for first Commander |
Alan:
In my opinion, the wise decision is the 500, or the 500A Colemill- as a
transition twin pilot...
I've owned both.
Currently I own a 500A Colemill.
These airplanes are easy to fix and parts are affordable
156 gal useable fuel is the same number as gear extension speed...156.
I have over 2000# useful load in the 500A.
These numbers are better than most Aztecs. Payload is almost 1100 #'s.
My last annual was $1754. (by a FAA Certified Mechanic).
The Commander Series Aircraft are the biggest bang for the $Buck$.
I'll be flying my family to the Grand Canyon in July with stops in Santa Fe,
etc.
Good Luck,
Gary Tillman
www.flysafeinsurance.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New to group; Looking for first Commander |
Finally someone with good sense.
bilbo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Kucheck" <Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com>
Subject: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
>
> All:
>
> I have been lurking for a while now, having joined TCFG a couple of months
> ago. I am looking for my first Twin Commander and I have to say, this
group
> has been a real education. I have begun to feel that I know a few of you
> already; at least your email personas. ;>)
>
> I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I am still trying to figure out
how
> to convince my wife that it is really essential to have TWO airplanes.
I'm
> instrument rated and current, a low-time guy [about 400 hours], just about
> to get my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole "geared vs.
direct"
> war [I am open to either], I would be interested in any thoughts about
> getting into one's first Commander: particular things to watch out for,
etc.
> Clearly a good pre-buy is essential.
>
> I have been watching the ads, talking to a few owners. There does not
> appear to be a lot of turnover right now - an occasional 500A, always a
few
> B models [though some very high time] and a handful of Shrikes. The
latter
> are clearly outside my budget. The B's seem to command higher prices [I
> suppose that Colemill-converted A's, with HP in the same league as that of
> the Bs command the same prices]. In fact, I have seen one B model [with
> ~13,000 hours TT] advertised for exactly the same price an A that had
10,000
> hours fewer TTAF.
>
> My interest has been piqued recently by a particular 500A. So to you "A"
> drivers out there:
>
> * Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have "B envy", and
> are just biding your time until you can get into a B, S, or maybe
something
> geared?
>
> * Can you tell me what you typically cruise at and what the fuel
> burn is? My missions don't typically involve high density-altitude
> departures; I will not be at max gross most of the time. I love speed as
> much as the next guy but also appreciate fuel economy when it can be had
> without compromising safety.
>
> * Going into SNA I am forever being asked to "keep my speed up"
til
> the FAF and the relatively high max gear extension speed of the Deb
[143Kts]
> helps quite a bit. Can you confirm max gear extension speed on the 500A is
> 156Kts?
>
> * Is the fact that there are so few "original" 500A's out there
> starting to cause any parts availability problems?
>
> My intent is to first acquire the right airplane and then 2 or 3 partners.
I
> am based in Orange County, CA [the Debonair is hangared at SNA], so if
there
> are potential partners out there, let's talk.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
>
> I have been lurking for a while now, having joined TCFG
a
> couple of months ago. I am looking for my first Twin Commander and I have
> to say, this group has been a real education. I have begun to feel that I
> know a few of you already; at least your email personas. ;)
>
>
> I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I am still
trying to
> figure out how to convince my wife that it is really essential to have TWO
> airplanes. I'm instrument rated and current, a low-time guy [about 400
> hours], just about to get my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole
> "geared vs. direct" war [I am open to either], I would be
> interested in any thoughts about getting into one's first Commander:
> particular things to watch out for, etc. Clearly a good pre-buy is
essential.
>
>
> I have been watching the ads, talking to a few owners.
> There does not appear to be a lot of turnover right now - an occasional
> 500A, always a few B models [though some very high time] and a handful of
> Shrikes. The latter are clearly outside my budget. The B's
> seem to command higher prices [I suppose that Colemill-converted A's,
> with HP in the same league as that of the Bs command the same prices]. In
> fact, I have seen one B model [with ~13,000 hours TT] advertised for
exactly
> the same price an A that had 10,000 hours fewer TTAF.
>
>
> My interest has been piqued recently by a particular
> 500A. So to you "A" drivers out there:
>
>
> face=Symbol>* face="Times New Roman">
> Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have
> "B envy", and are just biding your time until you can get into a B,
> S, or maybe something geared?
>
>
> face=Symbol>* face="Times New Roman">
> Can you tell me what you typically cruise at and
what
> the fuel burn is? My
> missions don't typically involve high density-altitude departures; I will
> not be at max gross most of the time. I love speed as much as the next guy
but
> also appreciate fuel economy when it can be had without compromising
safety.
>
>
> face=Symbol>* face="Times New Roman">
> Going into SNA I am forever being asked to
> "keep my speed up" til the FAF and the relatively high max gear
> extension speed of the Deb [143Kts] helps quite a bit. Can you confirm max
gear
> extension speed on the 500A is 156Kts?
>
>
> face=Symbol>* face="Times New Roman">
> Is the fact that there are so few
> "original" 500A's out there starting to cause any parts
> availability problems?
>
>
> My intent is to first acquire the right airplane and
then 2
> or 3 partners. I am based in style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Orange County size=2 face=Arial>,
size=2 face=Arial>CA size=2 face=Arial> [the
Debonair
> is hangared at SNA], so if there are potential partners out there, let's
> talk.
>
>
> thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | New to group; Looking for first Commander |
Alan,
I have a 500A that I bought April 1,1981 and have tried to trade it several
times and the wised up that I had a better plane than I was looking at for
my purposes. I have had up to five large people in mine and just reduced the
fuel load to make up the difference. I still have the IO-470's (260 hp)and
usually burn around 22 to 25 gph and cruse at from 175 to 185 mph. The plane
will land short and get out of a short field. I regularly go in out of a
2600 foot grass field. The cockpit is roomy and I had one large passenger
say, it was the only plane he had been in that he was comfortable. Some one
else stated that women could get in and still be a lady. I have often wanted
the larger engines but from a practical stand point for my needs the plane
does all I need. Any thing I can help you with let me know. I guess you
figured out I love my plane.
Jim Addington
N444BD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alan
Kucheck
Subject: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
All:
I have been lurking for a while now, having joined TCFG a couple of months
ago. I am looking for my first Twin Commander and I have to say, this group
has been a real education. I have begun to feel that I know a few of you
already; at least your email personas. ;>)
I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I am still trying to figure out how
to convince my wife that it is really essential to have TWO airplanes. I'm
instrument rated and current, a low-time guy [about 400 hours], just about
to get my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole "geared vs. direct"
war [I am open to either], I would be interested in any thoughts about
getting into one's first Commander: particular things to watch out for, etc.
Clearly a good pre-buy is essential.
I have been watching the ads, talking to a few owners. There does not
appear to be a lot of turnover right now - an occasional 500A, always a few
B models [though some very high time] and a handful of Shrikes. The latter
are clearly outside my budget. The B's seem to command higher prices [I
suppose that Colemill-converted A's, with HP in the same league as that of
the Bs command the same prices]. In fact, I have seen one B model [with
~13,000 hours TT] advertised for exactly the same price an A that had 10,000
hours fewer TTAF.
My interest has been piqued recently by a particular 500A. So to you "A"
drivers out there:
* Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have "B envy", and
are just biding your time until you can get into a B, S, or maybe something
geared?
* Can you tell me what you typically cruise at and what the fuel
burn is? My missions don't typically involve high density-altitude
departures; I will not be at max gross most of the time. I love speed as
much as the next guy but also appreciate fuel economy when it can be had
without compromising safety.
* Going into SNA I am forever being asked to "keep my speed up" til
the FAF and the relatively high max gear extension speed of the Deb [143Kts]
helps quite a bit. Can you confirm max gear extension speed on the 500A is
156Kts?
* Is the fact that there are so few "original" 500A's out there
starting to cause any parts availability problems?
My intent is to first acquire the right airplane and then 2 or 3 partners. I
am based in Orange County, CA [the Debonair is hangared at SNA], so if there
are potential partners out there, let's talk.
thanks,
Alan
All:
I have been lurking for a while now, having joined TCFG a
couple of months ago. I am looking for my first Twin Commander and I have
to say, this group has been a real education. I have begun to feel that I
know a few of you already; at least your email personas. ;)
I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I am still trying
to
figure out how to convince my wife that it is really essential to have TWO
airplanes. I'm instrument rated and current, a low-time guy [about 400
hours], just about to get my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole
"geared vs. direct" war [I am open to either], I would be
interested in any thoughts about getting into one's first Commander:
particular things to watch out for, etc. Clearly a good pre-buy is
essential.
I have been watching the ads, talking to a few owners.
There does not appear to be a lot of turnover right now - an occasional
500A, always a few B models [though some very high time] and a handful of
Shrikes. The latter are clearly outside my budget. The B's
seem to command higher prices [I suppose that Colemill-converted A's,
with HP in the same league as that of the Bs command the same prices]. In
fact, I have seen one B model [with ~13,000 hours TT] advertised for exactly
the same price an A that had 10,000 hours fewer TTAF.
My interest has been piqued recently by a particular
500A. So to you "A" drivers out there:
*
Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have
"B envy", and are just biding your time until you can get into a B,
S, or maybe something geared?
*
Can you tell me what you typically cruise at and
what
the fuel burn is? My
missions don't typically involve high density-altitude departures; I will
not be at max gross most of the time. I love speed as much as the next guy
but
also appreciate fuel economy when it can be had without compromising safety.
*
Going into SNA I am forever being asked to
"keep my speed up" til the FAF and the relatively high max gear
extension speed of the Deb [143Kts] helps quite a bit. Can you confirm max
gear
extension speed on the 500A is 156Kts?
*
Is the fact that there are so few
"original" 500A's out there starting to cause any parts
availability problems?
My intent is to first acquire the right airplane and then
2
or 3 partners. I am based in Orange County, CA [the
Debonair
is hangared at SNA], so if there are potential partners out there, let's
talk.
thanks,
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: New to group; Looking for first Commander |
In a message dated 06/11/03 21:16:39 Pacific Daylight Time,
Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com writes:
> Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have "B envy", and
> are just biding your time until you can get into a B, S, or maybe something
> geared?
>
Hello Alan,
The "A" guys are quite happy with their models -- and for good reason.
They've been underappreciated (is that a legal word?) in the market shadow of the
"B."
Since I'm world famous for saying the unsaid, it gets down to engine
preference and stirs up the Lycoming vs. Continental hornet's nest.
I've found that the majority of Commander owners want(ed) a Lycoming powered
model and that's the overcast that hangs over the 500-A.
The 500-B is the darling of the fleet with this high useful load, Lycoming
and no requirement for the recurring spar inspection.
As a Debonair owner, you have an opinion about Continentals and if you've
been pleased with one of those powerplants, chances are you'll be pleased with
a
pair of them. Or three, if you can talk you wife into it. ;-)
System-wise and handling-wise, they're the same as the B, S and U models;
performance-wise the Colemill conversion levels the playing field in most
respects.
By the way, in the few weeks I've been around Commanders, I've observed a
common migration pattern from the Beech 33 and 35 models to Commanders. I would
have expected higher brand loyalty to the TravelAir and Barons. I guess Beech
boys can think for themselves.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Kucheck <Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com> |
| Subject: | New to group; Looking for first Commander |
That's a first. Never been accused of that before...
Alan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Bow [mailto:bowing74(at)earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 7:40 AM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
>
>
> -->
>
> Finally someone with good sense.
>
> bilbo
>
RE: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
That's a first. Never been accused of that before...
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bow [<A HREF="mailto:bowing74(at)earthlink.net">mailto:bowing74(at)earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 7:40 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
-- Commander-List message posted by: Bill Bow
-- bowing74(at)earthlink.net
Finally someone with good sense.
bilbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Kucheck <Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com> |
| Subject: | New to group; Looking for first Commander |
> As a Debonair owner, you have an opinion about Continentals
> and if you've
> been pleased with one of those powerplants, chances are
> you'll be pleased with a
> pair of them. Or three, if you can talk you wife into it. ;-)
I haven't flown behind similarly-sized Lycomings, so I may not know what I'm
missing, but the IO-470K certainly has been extraordinarily kind to me. It
purrs along as smoothly as an electric motor. We have a JPI montitor and
once properly leaned at cruise the EGTs and CHTs are almost straight across
the gauge, even without GAMIs. Maybe I'm just lucky. I am very careful about
not shock-cooling it, but that is really very little effort. We are now
about 600 SMOH and we have had to do 1 cylinder [it was a judgment call, and
our mechanic is very picky]. The other compressions seem to be getting
better each year.
> By the way, in the few weeks I've been around Commanders,
> I've observed a
> common migration pattern from the Beech 33 and 35 models to
> Commanders. I would
> have expected higher brand loyalty to the TravelAir and
> Barons. I guess Beech
> boys can think for themselves.
Certainly a Baron was the first thought, but I have always been a little
cramped in the Deb [I'm about 6'3"] and going to the Baron that doesn't
change. I like the idea of cruising at 200Kts as one friend does [or claims
to] in his C Baron, but if I have the opportunity to trade 20-25Kts for
several hundred # of payload, I'll take the payload. Besides, it is so hard
to build that multi time when you are going so fast...
Alan
RE: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
As a Debonair owner, you have an opinion about Continentals
and if you've
been pleased with one of those powerplants, chances are
you'll be pleased with a
pair of them. Or three, if you can talk you wife into it. ;-)
I haven't flown behind similarly-sized Lycomings, so I may not know what I'm missing,
but the IO-470K certainly has been extraordinarily kind to me. It purrs
along as smoothly as an electric motor. We have a JPI montitor and once properly
leaned at cruise the EGTs and CHTs are almost straight across the gauge, even
without GAMIs. Maybe I'm just lucky. I am very careful about not shock-cooling
it, but that is really very little effort. We are now about 600 SMOH and
we have had to do 1 cylinder [it was a judgment call, and our mechanic is very
picky]. The other compressions seem to be getting better each year.
By the way, in the few weeks I've been around Commanders,
I've observed a
common migration pattern from the Beech 33 and 35 models to
Commanders. I would
have expected higher brand loyalty to the TravelAir and
Barons. I guess Beech
boys can think for themselves.
Certainly a Baron was the first thought, but I have always been a little cramped
in the Deb [I'm about 6'3] and going to the Baron that doesn't change. I like
the idea of cruising at 200Kts as one friend does [or claims to] in his C Baron,
but if I have the opportunity to trade 20-25Kts for several hundred # of
payload, I'll take the payload. Besides, it is so hard to build that multi time
when you are going so fast...
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi guys!
A number of Turbo Commander owners here in the UK are needing to create an MMEL
for their 'plane.
Can anybody help?
They need a list of 'M' & 'O' procedures and the Models run from the 690A
through to the 695B.
All suggestions gratefully received!
Very Best Regards,
Barry C.
UK CommanderLand Rep.
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Guys!
A stock of piston Commander spares is available for sale here in the UK.
If anybody is interested, let me know and I'll put you in touch with the seller.
Best Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: New to group; Looking for first Commander |
In a message dated 06/12/03 12:13:33 Pacific Daylight Time,
Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com writes:
> Besides, it is so hard
> to build that multi time when you are going so fast...
>
Good point!
I had a client about the same dimensions that you have and he went Commander
for the same reason -- 500-A Colemill, in fact.
The harsh truth about the 520 sized Continentals is that they crack.
Continental knows they crack and allows a certain amount of it. (We're talking
cases
here, not cylinders)
Most of the "light case" IO-520s are gone, replaced with the heavy cases, but
the client I mentioned had to do an engine replacement on his Commander.
(1993)
When you buy and then train in your Commander you'll not only get Max
Headroom and higher useful load, but superior systems as well. But you won't
really
appreciate that until you start flying a Commander.
Enough enticement. Start shopping.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
Sir Barry,
If your countrymen don't mind taking advice from the Colonials, go to this
FAA link.
http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs/FINAL/smallac/G680TR6/G680TR6.DOC
If our email refelctor doesn't let HTML links through, the URL is:
http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs/FINAL/smallac/G680TR6/G680TR6.DOC
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Lundborg" <dltafolk(at)inreach.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 680E for sale |
Barry,
How much are the repairs and how much is the asking price? I am only
20 miles due east of Stockton and I 'd like to look at it.
Craig Lundborg
dltafolk(at)inreach.com
www.LundborgLanding.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Hancock" <radialpower(at)cox.net>
Subject: Commander-List: 680E for sale
>
> Hi again,
>
> Morris is currently doing the annual on my 680E. Unfortunately we have
> confirmed that the landing gear trusses and engine mounts need to be
> replaced. Otherwise it is a nice airplane.
>
> At this point I would like to sell the airplane at a reduced value based
> on the work that needs to be done. When the work is completed it will
> be the most mechanically sound 680E flying (or at least as good as
> JB's:).
>
> If anyone is interested in picking up a 680E with great running, lowish
> mid-time engines, a nice IFR avionics package, and a good interior at a
> reduced price, let me know. All AD's and SB's are current.
>
> Please email me off list or contact me via cell phone @ 949.300.5510
>
> Cheers,
>
> Barry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | New to group; Looking for first Commander |
I have to agree with the head room and leg room. I am 5'10" and have to
slide down about two inches to get full rudder through. The systems are
about as simple as you can get. They are either on or off. If you lose and
engine you don't have to think about fuel transfer it is automatic as there
is basicly one tank. The biggest draw back I have is finding a hangar to put
it in. I have had to move several times due to the hangars being sold.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
In a message dated 06/12/03 12:13:33 Pacific Daylight Time,
Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com writes:
> Besides, it is so hard
> to build that multi time when you are going so fast...
>
Good point!
I had a client about the same dimensions that you have and he went Commander
for the same reason -- 500-A Colemill, in fact.
The harsh truth about the 520 sized Continentals is that they crack.
Continental knows they crack and allows a certain amount of it. (We're
talking cases
here, not cylinders)
Most of the "light case" IO-520s are gone, replaced with the heavy cases,
but
the client I mentioned had to do an engine replacement on his Commander.
(1993)
When you buy and then train in your Commander you'll not only get Max
Headroom and higher useful load, but superior systems as well. But you
won't really
appreciate that until you start flying a Commander.
Enough enticement. Start shopping.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Kucheck <Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com> |
| Subject: | New to group; Looking for first Commander |
Jim:
Thanks for the hard numbers - very helpful. About what I would have
expected but nice to get confirmation by "asking the man who owns one."
I'm open to other models [everything doesn't come onto the market all at
once], but I think the A would work just fine for what I want.
Alan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Addington [mailto:jtaddington(at)charter.net]
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 8:22 AM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
>
>
> -->
>
> Alan,
>
> I have a 500A that I bought April 1,1981 and have tried to
> trade it several times and the wised up that I had a better
> plane than I was looking at for my purposes. I have had up to
> five large people in mine and just reduced the fuel load to
> make up the difference. I still have the IO-470's (260 hp)and
> usually burn around 22 to 25 gph and cruse at from 175 to 185
> mph. The plane will land short and get out of a short field.
> I regularly go in out of a 2600 foot grass field. The cockpit
> is roomy and I had one large passenger say, it was the only
> plane he had been in that he was comfortable. Some one else
> stated that women could get in and still be a lady. I have
> often wanted the larger engines but from a practical stand
> point for my needs the plane does all I need. Any thing I can
> help you with let me know. I guess you figured out I love my
> plane. Jim Addington N444BD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf
> Of Alan Kucheck
> To: 'commander-list(at)matronics.com'
> Subject: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
> I have been lurking for a while now, having joined TCFG a
> couple of months ago. I am looking for my first Twin
> Commander and I have to say, this group has been a real
> education. I have begun to feel that I know a few of you
> already; at least your email personas. ;>)
>
> I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I am still trying to
> figure out how to convince my wife that it is really
> essential to have TWO airplanes. I'm instrument rated and
> current, a low-time guy [about 400 hours], just about to get
> my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole "geared vs.
> direct" war [I am open to either], I would be interested in
> any thoughts about getting into one's first Commander:
> particular things to watch out for, etc. Clearly a good
> pre-buy is essential.
>
> I have been watching the ads, talking to a few owners. There
> does not appear to be a lot of turnover right now - an
> occasional 500A, always a few B models [though some very high
> time] and a handful of Shrikes. The latter are clearly
> outside my budget. The B's seem to command higher prices [I
> suppose that Colemill-converted A's, with HP in the same
> league as that of the Bs command the same prices]. In fact,
> I have seen one B model [with ~13,000 hours TT] advertised
> for exactly the same price an A that had 10,000 hours fewer TTAF.
>
> My interest has been piqued recently by a particular 500A.
> So to you "A" drivers out there:
>
> * Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have
> "B envy", and
> are just biding your time until you can get into a B, S, or
> maybe something geared?
>
> * Can you tell me what you typically cruise at and
> what the fuel
> burn is? My missions don't typically involve high
> density-altitude departures; I will not be at max gross most
> of the time. I love speed as much as the next guy but also
> appreciate fuel economy when it can be had without
> compromising safety.
>
> * Going into SNA I am forever being asked to "keep my
> speed up" til
> the FAF and the relatively high max gear extension speed of
> the Deb [143Kts] helps quite a bit. Can you confirm max gear
> extension speed on the 500A is 156Kts?
>
> * Is the fact that there are so few "original" 500A's
> out there
> starting to cause any parts availability problems?
>
> My intent is to first acquire the right airplane and then 2
> or 3 partners. I am based in Orange County, CA [the Debonair
> is hangared at SNA], so if there are potential partners out
> there, let's talk.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
>
> I have been lurking for a while now,
> having joined TCFG a couple of months ago. I am looking for
> my first Twin Commander and I have to say, this group has
> been a real education. I have begun to feel that I know a few
> of you already; at least your email personas. ;)
>
>
> I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I
> am still trying to figure out how to convince my wife that it
> is really essential to have TWO airplanes. I'm instrument
> rated and current, a low-time guy [about 400 hours], just
> about to get my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole
> "geared vs. direct" war [I am open to either], I would be
> interested in any thoughts about getting into one's first
> Commander: particular things to watch out for, etc. Clearly a
> good pre-buy is essential.
>
>
> I have been watching the ads, talking to a
> few owners. There does not appear to be a lot of turnover
> right now - an occasional 500A, always a few B models [though
> some very high time] and a handful of Shrikes. The latter are
> clearly outside my budget. The B's seem to command higher
> prices [I suppose that Colemill-converted A's, with HP in the
> same league as that of the Bs command the same prices]. In
> fact, I have seen one B model [with ~13,000 hours TT]
> advertised for exactly the same price an A that had 10,000
> hours fewer TTAF.
>
>
> My interest has been piqued recently by a
> particular 500A. So to you "A" drivers out there:
>
>
> style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in'> face=Symbol> style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>* face="Times New Roman"> Are you happy with your decision?
> Or do you have "B envy", and are just biding your time until
> you can get into a B, S, or maybe something geared?
>
>
> style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in'> face=Symbol> style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>* face="Times New Roman"> Can you tell me what you typically
> cruise at and what the fuel burn is? My missions don't
> typically involve high density-altitude departures; I will
> not be at max gross most of the time. I love speed as much as
> the next guy but also appreciate fuel economy when it can be
> had without compromising safety.
>
>
> style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in'> face=Symbol> style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>* face="Times New Roman"> Going into SNA I am forever being
> asked to "keep my speed up" til the FAF and the relatively
> high max gear extension speed of the Deb [143Kts] helps quite
> a bit. Can you confirm max gear extension speed on the 500A is 156Kts?
>
>
> style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in'> face=Symbol> style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>* face="Times New Roman"> Is
> the fact that there are so few "original" 500A's out there
> starting to cause any parts availability problems?
>
>
> My intent is to first acquire the right
> airplane and then 2 or 3 partners. I am based in style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Orange
> County style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>, size=2 face=Arial> style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>CA size=2 face=Arial> style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> [the Debonair is
> hangared at SNA], so if there are potential partners out
> there, let's talk.
>
>
> thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> Matronics Forums.
> ==========
> List members.
> ==========
> ==========
>
>
>
>
RE: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
Jim:
Thanks for the hard numbers - very helpful. About what I would have expected but
nice to get confirmation by asking the man who owns one.
I'm open to other models [everything doesn't come onto the market all at once],
but I think the A would work just fine for what I want.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Addington [<A HREF"mailto:jtaddington(at)charter.net">mailto:jtaddington(at)charter.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 8:22 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
-- Commander-List message posted by: Jim Addington
-- jtaddington(at)charter.net
Alan,
I have a 500A that I bought April 1,1981 and have tried to
trade it several times and the wised up that I had a better
plane than I was looking at for my purposes. I have had up to
five large people in mine and just reduced the fuel load to
make up the difference. I still have the IO-470's (260 hp)and
usually burn around 22 to 25 gph and cruse at from 175 to 185
mph. The plane will land short and get out of a short field.
I regularly go in out of a 2600 foot grass field. The cockpit
is roomy and I had one large passenger say, it was the only
plane he had been in that he was comfortable. Some one else
stated that women could get in and still be a lady. I have
often wanted the larger engines but from a practical stand
point for my needs the plane does all I need. Any thing I can
help you with let me know. I guess you figured out I love my
plane. Jim Addington N444BD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf
Of Alan Kucheck
To: 'commander-list(at)matronics.com'
Subject: Commander-List: New to group; Looking for first Commander
-- Commander-List message posted by: Alan Kucheck
Alan.Kucheck(at)borland.com
All:
I have been lurking for a while now, having joined TCFG a
couple of months ago. I am looking for my first Twin
Commander and I have to say, this group has been a real
education. I have begun to feel that I know a few of you
already; at least your email personas. ;)
I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I am still trying to
figure out how to convince my wife that it is really
essential to have TWO airplanes. I'm instrument rated and
current, a low-time guy [about 400 hours], just about to get
my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole geared vs.
direct war [I am open to either], I would be interested in
any thoughts about getting into one's first Commander:
particular things to watch out for, etc. Clearly a good
pre-buy is essential.
I have been watching the ads, talking to a few owners. There
does not appear to be a lot of turnover right now - an
occasional 500A, always a few B models [though some very high
time] and a handful of Shrikes. The latter are clearly
outside my budget. The B's seem to command higher prices [I
suppose that Colemill-converted A's, with HP in the same
league as that of the Bs command the same prices]. In fact,
I have seen one B model [with ~13,000 hours TT] advertised
for exactly the same price an A that had 10,000 hours fewer TTAF.
My interest has been piqued recently by a particular 500A.
So to you A drivers out there:
* Are you happy with your decision? Or do you have
B envy, and
are just biding your time until you can get into a B, S, or
maybe something geared?
* Can you tell me what you typically cruise at and
what the fuel
burn is? My missions don't typically involve high
density-altitude departures; I will not be at max gross most
of the time. I love speed as much as the next guy but also
appreciate fuel economy when it can be had without
compromising safety.
* Going into SNA I am forever being asked to keep my
speed up til
the FAF and the relatively high max gear extension speed of
the Deb [143Kts] helps quite a bit. Can you confirm max gear
extension speed on the 500A is 156Kts?
* Is the fact that there are so few original 500A's
out there
starting to cause any parts availability problems?
My intent is to first acquire the right airplane and then 2
or 3 partners. I am based in Orange County, CA [the Debonair
is hangared at SNA], so if there are potential partners out
there, let's talk.
thanks,
Alan
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span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'All:
span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'I have been lurking for a while now,
having joined TCFG a couple of months ago. I am looking for
my first Twin Commander and I have to say, this group has
been a real education. I have begun to feel that I know a few
of you already; at least your email personas. ;)
span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'I currently fly a 1964 Beech Debonair. I
am still trying to figure out how to convince my wife that it
is really essential to have TWO airplanes. I'm instrument
rated and current, a low-time guy [about 400 hours], just
about to get my multi. Without wanting to get into the whole
geared vs. direct war [I am open to either], I would be
interested in any thoughts about getting into one's first
Commander: particular things to watch out for, etc. Clearly a
good pre-buy is essential.
span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'I have been watching the ads, talking to a
few owners. There does not appear to be a lot of turnover
right now - an occasional 500A, always a few B models [though
some very high time] and a handful of Shrikes. The latter are
clearly outside my budget. The B's seem to command higher
prices [I suppose that Colemill-converted A's, with HP in the
same league as that of the Bs command the same prices]. In
April 24, 2003 - June 15, 2003
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-az