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Thanks,

Bert

In a message dated 05/24/07 07:48:12 Central Daylight Time, cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com writes:

--> Commander-List message posted by: "skywagongirl" <cchagnot@ultimateair.com>

Barry,

Thank You1

I can't get to my regular email to send right now but will later reply directly to the emails you've sent.

Cate

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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com>
Subject: Fly In
Date: May 24, 2007
625 S. Douglas, El Segundo, CA 90245 $B!|(B Phone: (310) 536-0100 Fax: (310) 536-0333 moe(at)rosspistons.com May 24, 2007 Fellow commander drivers: Is the fly in going to be at T82 (Fredericksburg, Tx.) on the weekend of September 22? Thanx! Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: May 24, 2007
Subject: Re: Fly In
Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <steveg(at)nternet.com>
Subject: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve <mailto:steveg(at)nternet.com> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Rob, Try T82. Gillispie County Airport. Tylor Hall On May 25, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Robert S. Randazzo wrote: > Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? > > Rob > > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In > > Hi Steve, > > This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held > every year at a different location. > > If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to > attend. > > As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every > question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn > good fun! > > Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year > and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. > > It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I > assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. > > So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an > order!! > > See you there, > Barry Collman > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: steve > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In > > Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as > what please. > > > Steve G > > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In > > > Moe, > > > Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September > 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. > > > Watch for the details to come out next month. > > > JB > > > See what's free at AOL.com. > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http:// > forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http:// > forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > =========================================================== > Tylor Hall tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Robert, T82 Check them out at http://www.hangarhotel.com/ /J ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert S. Randazzo To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 10:05 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- See what's free at AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ --> http://forums.matronics.com =========== __________ NOD32 2291 (20070525) Information __________ __________ NOD32 2291 (20070525) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
TCFG It is just north of Kerrville and west of Austin in the Texas Hill country. Tylor Hall On May 25, 2007, at 11:05 AM, Robert S. Randazzo wrote: > Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? > > Rob > > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In > > Hi Steve, > > This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held > every year at a different location. > > If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to > attend. > > As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every > question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn > good fun! > > Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year > and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. > > It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I > assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. > > So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an > order!! > > See you there, > Barry Collman > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: steve > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In > > Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as > what please. > > > Steve G > > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In > > > Moe, > > > Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September > 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. > > > Watch for the details to come out next month. > > > JB > > > See what's free at AOL.com. > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http:// > forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http:// > forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > =========================================================== > Tylor Hall tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Hi Robert, Fredericksburg is code T82, also known as Gillespie County airport. This is home to the well-known 'Hangar Hotel'. I think it may be planned to use that, but no doubt Capt JimBob will confirm next month. Is your diary to hand? Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert S. Randazzo To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- See what's free at AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ --> http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <steveg(at)nternet.com>
Subject: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Barry, Thanks for the info. I was 1/2 owner of AC500 N6291B and we flew her for missions that called for such a beautiful, spacious airplane. Haiti, Bahamas, Vegas, etc. Alas, the mission profiles for both of us changed over time and we went our separate ways calling for the sale of our wonderful aircraft. She has a great new owner and a wonderful home in North Carolina now. I now own a Bonanza E35 N52DF based at L31, St. Tammany in Louisiana, but always wish for that pile of spare cash to purchase another AeroCommander. Maybe someday. In the meantime I keep up with what is going on and will most likely attend the Fredericksburg bash. Mom lives in Kerrville, TX not for and would make a great trip, so see you there. Steve Gilson _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:06 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve <mailto:steveg(at)nternet.com> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ to Archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <steveg(at)nternet.com>
Subject: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Barry, Thanks for the info. I was 1/2 owner of AC500 N6291B and we flew her for missions that called for such a beautiful, spacious airplane. Haiti, Bahamas, Vegas, etc. Alas, the mission profiles for both of us changed over time and we went our separate ways calling for the sale of our wonderful aircraft. She has a great new owner and a wonderful home in North Carolina now. I now own a Bonanza E35 N52DF based at L31, St. Tammany in Louisiana, but always wish for that pile of spare cash to purchase another AeroCommander. Maybe someday. In the meantime I keep up with what is going on and will most likely attend the Fredericksburg bash. Mom lives in Kerrville, TX not for and would make a great trip, so see you there. Steve Gilson _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:06 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve <mailto:steveg(at)nternet.com> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ to Archive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Hi Steve, If you can get the Fredericksburg 'bash', then it'll be a pleasure to meet you, I'm sure of that. Another name that those attending be able to put a face to in future ;-) Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Barry, Thanks for the info. I was 1/2 owner of AC500 N6291B and we flew her for missions that called for such a beautiful, spacious airplane. Haiti, Bahamas, Vegas, etc. Alas, the mission profiles for both of us changed over time and we went our separate ways calling for the sale of our wonderful aircraft. She has a great new owner and a wonderful home in North Carolina now. I now own a Bonanza E35 N52DF based at L31, St. Tammany in Louisiana, but always wish for that pile of spare cash to purchase another AeroCommander. Maybe someday. In the meantime I keep up with what is going on and will most likely attend the Fredericksburg bash. Mom lives in Kerrville, TX not for and would make a great trip, so see you there. Steve Gilson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:06 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- See what's free at AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
bc, since I owe you a trip, if you come into dfw I will transport you to T82 and back. mason ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, If you can get the Fredericksburg 'bash', then it'll be a pleasure to meet you, I'm sure of that. Another name that those attending be able to put a face to in future ;-) Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: steve<mailto:steveg(at)nternet.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Barry, Thanks for the info. I was 1/2 owner of AC500 N6291B and we flew her for missions that called for such a beautiful, spacious airplane. Haiti, Bahamas, Vegas, etc. Alas, the mission profiles for both of us changed over time and we went our separate ways calling for the sale of our wonderful aircraft. She has a great new owner and a wonderful home in North Carolina now. I now own a Bonanza E35 N52DF based at L31, St. Tammany in Louisiana, but always wish for that pile of spare cash to purchase another AeroCommander. Maybe someday. In the meantime I keep up with what is going on and will most likely attend the Fredericksburg bash. Mom lives in Kerrville, TX not for and would make a great trip, so see you there. Steve Gilson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:06 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve<mailto:steveg(at)nternet.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - See what's free at AOL.com<http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List<> the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =========== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "css nico" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
AH, it's that time of year again. The prospects of finally attending a fly-in looks very promising this year. I'd love to meet everyone in Texas. Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Fly In
Date: May 25, 2007
Thanks, all! Looks interesting! I think we'll be attending! Rob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 10:24 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Robert, T82 Check them out at http://www.hangarhotel.com/ /J ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert S. Randazzo <mailto:rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 10:05 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve <mailto:steveg(at)nternet.com> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =========== __________ NOD32 2291 (20070525) Information __________ __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fly In
Date: May 26, 2007
Hi Mason, That's very kind of you. When I've got my plans sorted, I'll be back in touch. At this stage though, there shouldn't be a need to transport me from T82 to DFW, as hopefully, I can get a ride from T82 to OKC from someone who will be heading back in that direction. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 3:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In bc, since I owe you a trip, if you come into dfw I will transport you to T82 and back. mason ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, If you can get the Fredericksburg 'bash', then it'll be a pleasure to meet you, I'm sure of that. Another name that those attending be able to put a face to in future ;-) Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 9:37 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Barry, Thanks for the info. I was 1/2 owner of AC500 N6291B and we flew her for missions that called for such a beautiful, spacious airplane. Haiti, Bahamas, Vegas, etc. Alas, the mission profiles for both of us changed over time and we went our separate ways calling for the sale of our wonderful aircraft. She has a great new owner and a wonderful home in North Carolina now. I now own a Bonanza E35 N52DF based at L31, St. Tammany in Louisiana, but always wish for that pile of spare cash to purchase another AeroCommander. Maybe someday. In the meantime I keep up with what is going on and will most likely attend the Fredericksburg bash. Mom lives in Kerrville, TX not for and would make a great trip, so see you there. Steve Gilson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:06 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Someone have the airport code handy for Fredricksburg, TX? Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 08:45 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Hi Steve, This is the Annual Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-In. One is held every year at a different location. If you own, or intend to own, a Commander then this is THE event to attend. As well as having a number of experts on hand to answer your every question on flying or maintaining your Commander, it is also darn good fun! Really? YES REALLY. That's why I come over from the UK every year and a couple of guys come all the way from Australia too. It's also a chance to put faces to names from the 'chatlist' and, I assure you, make a whole new bunch of friends. So guys, get those dates in your diary - **NOW** - and that's an order!! See you there, Barry Collman ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fly In Is this a Commander specific fly in or some other? Listed name as what please. Steve G ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:45 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fly In Moe, Yep, the Fly-In will be held in Fredericksburg, Texas September 20-23rd. Mark your calendars and plan to attend. Watch for the details to come out next month. JB ------------------------------------------------------------------------ See what's free at AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2292 (20070525) Information __________ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =========== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <kamala(at)msn.com>
Subject:
Date: May 27, 2007
wishing a safe and honored memorial day. mason ________________________________________________________________________________
From: skyhawkc-172(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re:
Date: May 29, 2007
DAMN CHECKING ACCOUNT A crusty old man walks into a bank and says to the teller, "I want to open a damn checking account." The astonished woman replies," I beg your pardon, sir. I must have misunderstood you. What did you say?" "Listen up, damn it. I said I want to open a damn checking account now!" "I'm very sorry sir, but that kind of language is not tolerated in this bank." The teller leaves the window and goes over to the bank manager to inform him of her situation. The manage r agrees that the teller does not have to listen to that foul language. They both return to the window and the manager asks the old geezer, "Sir, what seems to be the problem here?" "There is no damn problem," the man says. I just won $200 million bucks in the damn lottery and I want to put my damn money in this damn bank." "I see," says the manager, "and is this bitch giving you a hard time? Sorry guys, I know it's non-commander related. -------------- Original message -------------- From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <kamala(at)msn.com> wishing a safe and honored memorial day. mason
DAMN CHECKING ACCOUNT

       A crusty old man walks into a bank and says to the
       teller, "I want to open a damn checking account."

       The astonished woman replies," I beg your pardon, sir.
       I must have misunderstood you.

       What did you say?"

       "Listen up, damn it. I said I want to open a damn
       checking account now!"

       "I'm very sorry sir, but that kind of language is not
       tolerated in this bank."

       The teller leaves the window and goes over to the bank
       manager to inform him of her situatio n. The manage r
       agrees that the teller does not have to listen to that foul
       language. They both return to the window and the
       manager asks the old geezer,

       "Sir, what seems to be the problem here?"
       "There is no damn problem," the man says. I just won $200
       million bucks in the damn lottery and I want to put my
       damn money in this damn bank."

       "I see," says the manager,
       "and is this bitch giving you a hard time?

Sorry guys, I know it's non-commander related.

wishing a safe and honored memorial day. mason

________________________________________________________________________________
From: skyhawkc-172(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re:
Date: May 29, 2007
non-commander related http://www.youtube.com/v/ervaMPt4Ha0&autoplay=1 girl is 15 years old that produced this. b -------------- Original message -------------- From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <kamala(at)msn.com> wishing a safe and honored memorial day. mason
non-commander related

http://www.youtube.com/v/ervaMPt4Ha0&autoplay=1

girl is 15 years old that produced this.

b

wishing a safe and honored memorial day. mason

________________________________________________________________________________
From: asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
Subject: New to list
Date: May 30, 2007
Hi folks, I'm new to the list, and I hope I understand how it works, so if I mess up, please let me know. We're shopping for a Commander and need advise as to what is the best one. Our goal it to use it for low level aerial surveillance to look over some land we are interested in. The trips will be in the 300 to 600nm range and perhaps an hour or two flying over the land, looking it over. We will do these trips in VFR weather, so deice is not an issue, pressure not necessary and speed really isn't a big factor. However, would like a reasonable well equipped plane, preferably with air. The Shrike seems like a good choice, but wondering what others I should be considering. The 560s with the geared, but not supercharged engines have been mentioned as good planes. Thoughts? Larry Olson St. Pete ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: New to list
Date: May 30, 2007
Hi Larry, Welcome to the list! I hope you'll find it a great resource. As far as which model might do you best, I have a 500B so I'm partial, but the B-model has some great advantages: 1) Direct-drive engines (fuel efficient, can fly them fairly ham-fisted without damaging them) 2) Lycoming IO-540 powered (proven design that's pretty rugged) 3) No spar AD that tends to affect the Shrikes 4) Generally excellent useful loads (mine is 2,238 lbs.!) Mine is turbocharged & deiced, but that's obviously not a factor for you although I think they're great options if you live in mountainous country like I do. These airplanes are perfect for 3-600NM trips. Comfortable, roomy, fast enough (mine's good for ~175 kts. unless I go up above 12,000 where I can get ~190 kts. with the turbos) and great for sightseeing, with the wing above you. One option I LOVE about mine is the pilot door...especially if you're carrying passengers a lot. Also my dispatch reliability has been near 100%....I've missed only 2 trips in 8 years of ownership and they were both due to annuals falling at the wrong time. Hope this helps, /John ----- Original Message ----- From: <asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:18 PM Subject: Commander-List: New to list > > Hi folks, > > I'm new to the list, and I hope I understand how it works, so if I mess > up, please let me know. > > We're shopping for a Commander and need advise as to what is the best > one. Our goal it to use it for low level aerial surveillance to look over > some land we are interested in. The trips will be in the 300 to 600nm > range and perhaps an hour or two flying over the land, looking it over. > We will do these trips in VFR weather, so deice is not an issue, pressure > not necessary and speed really isn't a big factor. However, would like a > reasonable well equipped plane, preferably with air. > > The Shrike seems like a good choice, but wondering what others I should > be considering. The 560s with the geared, but not supercharged engines > have been mentioned as good planes. > > Thoughts? > > Larry Olson > St. Pete > > > __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ > > > __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: New to list
Date: May 30, 2007
Larry, I'm going to be in St. Pete from Sunday June 3 through Friday June 8 for vacation on Treasure Island. I have been flying a Shrike for 3 years (800 hours) and wouldn't mind sharing with you. It will be parked at Albert-Whitted airport while we are on Treasure Island. Cell number is 517 881 8959 if you want to talk. Don (based in Michigan) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:18 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to list Hi Larry, Welcome to the list! I hope you'll find it a great resource. As far as which model might do you best, I have a 500B so I'm partial, but the B-model has some great advantages: 1) Direct-drive engines (fuel efficient, can fly them fairly ham-fisted without damaging them) 2) Lycoming IO-540 powered (proven design that's pretty rugged) 3) No spar AD that tends to affect the Shrikes 4) Generally excellent useful loads (mine is 2,238 lbs.!) Mine is turbocharged & deiced, but that's obviously not a factor for you although I think they're great options if you live in mountainous country like I do. These airplanes are perfect for 3-600NM trips. Comfortable, roomy, fast enough (mine's good for ~175 kts. unless I go up above 12,000 where I can get ~190 kts. with the turbos) and great for sightseeing, with the wing above you. One option I LOVE about mine is the pilot door...especially if you're carrying passengers a lot. Also my dispatch reliability has been near 100%....I've missed only 2 trips in 8 years of ownership and they were both due to annuals falling at the wrong time. Hope this helps, /John ----- Original Message ----- From: <asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:18 PM Subject: Commander-List: New to list > > Hi folks, > > I'm new to the list, and I hope I understand how it works, so if I mess > up, please let me know. > > We're shopping for a Commander and need advise as to what is the best > one. Our goal it to use it for low level aerial surveillance to look over > some land we are interested in. The trips will be in the 300 to 600nm > range and perhaps an hour or two flying over the land, looking it over. > We will do these trips in VFR weather, so deice is not an issue, pressure > not necessary and speed really isn't a big factor. However, would like a > reasonable well equipped plane, preferably with air. > > The Shrike seems like a good choice, but wondering what others I should > be considering. The 560s with the geared, but not supercharged engines > have been mentioned as good planes. > > Thoughts? > > Larry Olson > St. Pete > > > __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ > > > __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: May 31, 2007
Subject: Re: US Marshall's
The Flyin at Fredericksburg Texas will be held September 20-23rd. Looking forward to seeing a record number of Commanders and Commander enthusiasts there. jb ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: US Marshall's
Date: May 31, 2007
What hotel? Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: US Marshall's The Flyin at Fredericksburg Texas will be held September 20-23rd. Looking forward to seeing a record number of Commanders and Commander enthusiasts there. jb ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: New to list
Date: Jun 01, 2007
Hi John, My take is that if you are going to fly missions that require more than average power adjustments, like sightseeing and inspection flights, to go for direct drive engines. Ordinarily, these flights require either a high number of take-offs and landings or a higher incidence of power adjustments. The type of mission could catch a distracted pilot and hurt geared engines given the right circumstances. With Commanders you will have a very high level of mission-satisfaction. Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:05 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: New to list Larry, I'm going to be in St. Pete from Sunday June 3 through Friday June 8 for vacation on Treasure Island. I have been flying a Shrike for 3 years (800 hours) and wouldn't mind sharing with you. It will be parked at Albert-Whitted airport while we are on Treasure Island. Cell number is 517 881 8959 if you want to talk. Don (based in Michigan) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:18 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to list Hi Larry, Welcome to the list! I hope you'll find it a great resource. As far as which model might do you best, I have a 500B so I'm partial, but the B-model has some great advantages: 1) Direct-drive engines (fuel efficient, can fly them fairly ham-fisted without damaging them) 2) Lycoming IO-540 powered (proven design that's pretty rugged) 3) No spar AD that tends to affect the Shrikes 4) Generally excellent useful loads (mine is 2,238 lbs.!) Mine is turbocharged & deiced, but that's obviously not a factor for you although I think they're great options if you live in mountainous country like I do. These airplanes are perfect for 3-600NM trips. Comfortable, roomy, fast enough (mine's good for ~175 kts. unless I go up above 12,000 where I can get ~190 kts. with the turbos) and great for sightseeing, with the wing above you. One option I LOVE about mine is the pilot door...especially if you're carrying passengers a lot. Also my dispatch reliability has been near 100%....I've missed only 2 trips in 8 years of ownership and they were both due to annuals falling at the wrong time. Hope this helps, /John ----- Original Message ----- From: <asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:18 PM Subject: Commander-List: New to list > > Hi folks, > > I'm new to the list, and I hope I understand how it works, so if I mess > up, please let me know. > > We're shopping for a Commander and need advise as to what is the best > one. Our goal it to use it for low level aerial surveillance to look over > some land we are interested in. The trips will be in the 300 to 600nm > range and perhaps an hour or two flying over the land, looking it over. > We will do these trips in VFR weather, so deice is not an issue, pressure > not necessary and speed really isn't a big factor. However, would like a > reasonable well equipped plane, preferably with air. > > The Shrike seems like a good choice, but wondering what others I should > be considering. The 560s with the geared, but not supercharged engines > have been mentioned as good planes. > > Thoughts? > > Larry Olson > St. Pete > > > __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ > > > __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 01, 2007
Subject: Re: US Marshall's
The Hangar Hotel which is actually on the airport has been booked for the event. Check out their website: _www.hangarhotel.com_ (http://www.hangarhotel.com) . We'll be sending more details on the event by the end of this month. But mark your calendars now so you'll be able to attend. jb ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: US Marshall's
Date: Jun 01, 2007
jb, have already made reservations. mason looking forward to the time. From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.comDate: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:57:17 -0400Subject: Re: Comm ander-List: Re: US Marshall'sTo: commander-list(at)matronics.com The Hangar Hotel which is actually on the airport has been booked for the e vent. Check out their website: www.hangarhotel.com. We'll be sending mor e details on the event by the end of this month. But mark your calendars n ow so you'll be able to attend. jb See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: US Marshall's
Date: Jun 01, 2007
Mason, Where did you make your reservation? Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 10:43 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: US Marshall's jb, have already made reservations. mason looking forward to the time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:57:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: US Marshall's To: commander-list(at)matronics.com The Hangar Hotel which is actually on the airport has been booked for the event. Check out their website: www.hangarhotel.com. We'll be sending more details on the event by the end of this month. But mark your calendars now so you'll be able to attend. jb ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- See what's free at AOL.com. " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: US Marshall's
Date: Jun 01, 2007
ja, at the hanger hotel of course. mason From: jtaddington(at)charter.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: C ommander-List: Re: US Marshall'sDate: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:50:50 -0500 Mason, Where did you make your reservation? Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 10:43 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: US Marshall's jb, have already made reservations. mason looking forward to the time. From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.comDate: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 10:57:17 -0400Subject: Re: Comm ander-List: Re: US Marshall'sTo: commander-list(at)matronics.com The Hangar Hotel which is actually on the airport has been booked for the e vent. Check out their website: www.hangarhotel.com. We'll be sending mor e details on the event by the end of this month. But mark your calendars n ow so you'll be able to attend. jb See what's free at AOL.com. " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2007
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: winglets
OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com>
Subject: winglets
Date: Jun 02, 2007
Donnie, Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is top drawer. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM Subject: Commander-List: winglets OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 _____ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: winglets
Date: Jun 02, 2007
DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons<mailto:moe(at)rosspistons.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Donnie, Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is top drawer. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: winglets OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2007
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: winglets
Thank you Mason and Moe. Do either one of you recall the performance and price figures on the winglets? Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 N69PT ----- Original Message ---- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)msn.com> Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:28:25 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Donnie, Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is top drawer. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM Subject: Commander-List: winglets OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Moshluk" <gmosh(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: winglets
Date: Jun 03, 2007
Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my 560 that have been tunnel certified? ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Donnie, Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is top drawer. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: winglets OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 03, 2007
Subject: Re: winglets
In a message dated 03-Jun-07 10:53:56 Pacific Daylight Time, gmosh(at)charter.net writes: Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my 560 that have been tunnel certified? I will ditto what Moe and Mason have said. Here is a link to the AeroDyne (Commander-Aero) web site with winglet info. Take a look here for the answer on what models and the prices: _www.commanderaero.com_ (http://www.commanderaero.com) Keep in mind that there are bootleg / illegal winglets out there. The AeroDyne winglets are STC'd, have had their design wind tunnel tested at Wright-Patterson AFB and are made by a PMA shop in business to build aircraft parts. I've seen bootleg winglets get taken off in pre-buy inspections when they were found out. That wasn't happy news for neither the seller nor the buyer. Various claims will be made about their effect on performance. I've flown a lot of piston and turbine Commanders with and without. I do notice better high altitude climb in the turbine Commanders. The piston models with the winglets have also had flap gap seals, so I can't say which mod is responsible for what. Among those upgraded piston aircraft, it seems to be all over the map: I've seen zero performance increase and I've seen as much as 8 KIAS increase. In my opinion (from experience) a wingleted Commander stalls later but the stall break is much more abrupt. However, the time you spend in that flight regime is what ... three seconds every two years during your Flight Review? One thing for sure, depending on whether your Commander has nose mounted lights or Grimes lights, the AeroDyne winglets are worth the money for recognition lights alone (strobes install within the lens as well) regardless of any performance bonus. Thanks for letting us spend your money! Wing Commander Gordon ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: winglets [bcc][faked-from][html-rem]
Date: Jun 03, 2007
From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com>
The major performance increase from winglets is an 80-85% increase in nose prints on the outside of the cabin windows. Brock ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: winglets
Date: Jun 03, 2007
dr, px appox $5000. ck web site for performance or call commander aero they will be glad to help with both. ps my 680fp had illegal winglets when I bot it, and an illegal prop. not something your normally catch in a pre buy. mason ----- Original Message ----- From: Donnie Rose<mailto:aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Thank you Mason and Moe. Do either one of you recall the performance and price figures on the winglets? Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 N69PT ----- Original Message ---- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)msn.com<mailto:kamala(at)msn.com>> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:28:25 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets DR, I WILL CFM ALL MOE HAS SAID ABOUT COMMANDER AERO. THERE WINGLETS ARE THE ONLY ONES YOU SHOULD CONSIDER. THERE WERE DEVELOPED BY THE ENGINEERS AT THE AIR FORCE FACILITY THERE WITH WIND TUNNEL TESTING AND ALL. YOU CANNOT GO WRONG PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR AIR SHIP IN THE HANDS OF JOHN BOSCH AND GARY KROMER. MASON 680Fp 2001M ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons<mailto:moe(at)rosspistons.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Donnie, Commander Aero in Ohio installed winglets on my 680F(p), and nothing increases the Cool Factor, more than winglets (except for the Shrike Nose). Since the flap gap seals were installed at the same time it is really hard to say what the net effect of the winglets alone would have been. While the cruse is a little bit better the flap gap seals did increase the take off roll a little bit. This was not a problem since the 680F(p) has 380 HP per side and the 50 foot wing. The guys at Commander Aero are really great to deal with, and their craftsmanship is top drawer. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 1:55 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: winglets OK fellow commanders, what are your thoughts on winglets and whose do you like best? Also, I am planning on attending the fly-in, my folks live in Kerrville so If it doesn't interfere with a Red Raiders game..... Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast <> with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.<> title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48518/*http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinde r/;_ylc=X3oDMTE3NWsyMDd2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDY2FyLWZ pbmRlcg--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "MASON CHEVAILLIER" <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: winglets
Date: Jun 03, 2007
kg, eloquent as usual. mason ----- Original Message ----- From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com<mailto:CloudCraft(at)aol.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets In a message dated 03-Jun-07 10:53:56 Pacific Daylight Time, gmosh(at)charter.net writes: Is there anything available for the short wing Commanders like my 560 that have been tunnel certified? I will ditto what Moe and Mason have said. Here is a link to the AeroDyne (Commander-Aero) web site with winglet info. Take a look here for the answer on what models and the prices: www.commanderaero.com<http://www.commanderaero.com/> Keep in mind that there are bootleg / illegal winglets out there. The AeroDyne winglets are STC'd, have had their design wind tunnel tested at Wright-Patterson AFB and are made by a PMA shop in business to build aircraft parts. I've seen bootleg winglets get taken off in pre-buy inspections when they were found out. That wasn't happy news for neither the seller nor the buyer. Various claims will be made about their effect on performance. I've flown a lot of piston and turbine Commanders with and without. I do notice better high altitude climb in the turbine Commanders. The piston models with the winglets have also had flap gap seals, so I can't say which mod is responsible for what. Among those upgraded piston aircraft, it seems to be all over the map: I've seen zero performance increase and I've seen as much as 8 KIAS increase. In my opinion (from experience) a wingleted Commander stalls later but the stall break is much more abrupt. However, the time you spend in that flight regime is what ... three seconds every two years during your Flight Review? One thing for sure, depending on whether your Commander has nose mounted lights or Grimes lights, the AeroDyne winglets are worth the money for recognition lights alone (strobes install within the lens as well) regardless of any performance bonus. Thanks for letting us spend your money! Wing Commander Gordon ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com<http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Four Commanders in Harare?
Date: Jun 03, 2007
If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare Charles Prince, which is an airport to the north of Harare, Zimbabwe. At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most twin seems to be a Commander. The Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its left shows its stubby wings and seems to be in proportion to the Commander. The Commander image shows the taper of the wings and the small protuberances at the trailing edge, the latter being the engine nacelles protruding past the wing's trailing edge, which might not be unique to Commanders but, looking at the fuselage forward of the wing's leading edge, it appears as if the propellers would be exactly behind the cockpit row of seats. If these identifying features are accurate, then there is another Commander immediately east of the intersection of runways 24 and 32. The one further east of that Commander, with its nose partially into the hangar, might be a Commander if the nose is partly obscured by the hangar's shadow, but it's larger than the previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally, look at the plane in the rough east of runway 32's threshold. Is that an abandoned Commander? Does anyone have on-the-ground information about these planes? Sir Barry? Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Engine failure
Date: Jun 03, 2007
It's an old accident in an Aztec, but its relevance is eternal and for everyone flying twins. I thought it might be appropriate reading material. It is indeed a pity that engine out training in take-off configuration wasn't given, if I understand the report correctly. http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/182396-1.html Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: skyhawkc-172(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Four Commanders in Harare?
Date: Jun 04, 2007
Nico, I seen yours and agree. How bout El Dorado International Airport it's a large airport NW of Bogota Colubia, I found what appears to be (2) near the Learjet and 1 a little farther away on the ramp, they seem pretty easy to spot with the tell tailed foreward tapered wing. What do you think? b -------------- Original message -------------- From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare Charles Prince, which is an airport to the north of Harare, Zimbabwe. At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most twin seems to be a Commander. The Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its left shows its stubby wings and seems to be in proportion to the Commander. The Commander image shows the taper of the wings and the small protuberances at the trailing edge, the latter being the engine nacelles protruding past the wings trailing edge, which might not be unique to Commanders but, looking at the fuselage forward of the wings leading edge, it appears as if the propellers would be exactly behind the cockpit row of seats. If these identifying features are accurate, then there is another Commander immediately east of the intersection of runways 24 and 32. The one further east of that Commander, with its nose partially into the hangar, might be a Commander if the nose is partly obscured by the hangars shadow, but its larger than the previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally, look at the plane in the rough east of runway 32 s thr eshold. Is that an abandoned Commander? Does anyone have on-the-ground information about these planes? Sir Barry? Nico
Nico,

I seen yours and agree. How bout El Dorado International Airport it's a large airport NW of Bogota Colubia, I found what appears to be (2) near the Learjet and 1 a little farther away on the ramp, they seem pretty easy to spot with the tell tailed foreward tapered wing. What do you think?

b

If you have GoogleEarth, search for Harare Charles Prince, which is an airport to the north of Harare, Zimbabwe.

At the threshold of runway 24, the eastern-most twin seems to be a Commander. The Piper Apache (or earlier Aztec) to its left shows its stubby wings and seems to be in proportion to the Commander. The Commander image shows the taper of the wings and the small protuberances at the trailing edge, the latter being the engine nacelles protruding past the wings trailing edge, which might not be unique to Commanders but, looking at the fuselage forward of the wings leading edge, it appears as if the propellers would be exactly behind the cockpit row of seats. If these identifying features are accurate, then there is another Commander immediately east of the intersection of runways 24 and 32. The one further east of that Commander, with its nose partially into the hangar, might be a Commander if the nose is partly obscured by the hangars shadow, but its larger tha n the previous two. It might be a 685 or even a turbo-prop. Finally, look at the plane in the rough east of runway 32s threshold. Is that an abandoned Commander?

Does anyone have on-the-ground information about these planes? Sir Barry?

Nico

________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: New to list
Date: Jun 04, 2007
John, If you are flying a sealevel to 5-8000', and speed is not a major item, You may want to look a the 500A with the IO-470 Cont. engines. It is slower than the 500B,U,S. One member, Bill Bow, has a nice example that is for sale. It needs an engine overhaul and the other engine was just overhauled. The aircraft is in FL. It is listed on Controller. I had a flight with a professional photographer to film an event. We spent about an hour flying around points on the ground at 500'. It was a lot of turns around a point. As the pilot, I did not have much time to look down, but we spent a lot of time at 45 degrees in turns. It was somewhat bumpy down low but the Commander as a platform was very stable. Tylor Hall tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net On Jun 1, 2007, at 6:16 AM, nico css wrote: > > > Hi John, > My take is that if you are going to fly missions that require more > than > average power adjustments, like sightseeing and inspection flights, > to go > for direct drive engines. Ordinarily, these flights require either > a high > number of take-offs and landings or a higher incidence of power > adjustments. > The type of mission could catch a distracted pilot and hurt geared > engines > given the right circumstances. > With Commanders you will have a very high level of mission- > satisfaction. > Nico > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:05 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: New to list > > > Larry, > > I'm going to be in St. Pete from Sunday June 3 through Friday June > 8 for > vacation on Treasure Island. I have been flying a Shrike for 3 years > (800 hours) and wouldn't mind sharing with you. It will be parked at > Albert-Whitted airport while we are on Treasure Island. > > Cell number is 517 881 8959 if you want to talk. > > Don (based in Michigan) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John > Vormbaum > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:18 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to list > > > > Hi Larry, > > Welcome to the list! I hope you'll find it a great resource. As far as > which > model might do you best, I have a 500B so I'm partial, but the B-model > has > some great advantages: > > 1) Direct-drive engines (fuel efficient, can fly them fairly ham- > fisted > without damaging them) > 2) Lycoming IO-540 powered (proven design that's pretty rugged) > 3) No spar AD that tends to affect the Shrikes > 4) Generally excellent useful loads (mine is 2,238 lbs.!) > > Mine is turbocharged & deiced, but that's obviously not a factor > for you > > although I think they're great options if you live in mountainous > country > like I do. These airplanes are perfect for 3-600NM trips. Comfortable, > roomy, fast enough (mine's good for ~175 kts. unless I go up above > 12,000 > where I can get ~190 kts. with the turbos) and great for sightseeing, > with > the wing above you. > > One option I LOVE about mine is the pilot door...especially if you're > carrying passengers a lot. Also my dispatch reliability has been near > 100%....I've missed only 2 trips in 8 years of ownership and they were > both > due to annuals falling at the wrong time. > > Hope this helps, > > /John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:18 PM > Subject: Commander-List: New to list > > >> >> Hi folks, >> >> I'm new to the list, and I hope I understand how it works, so if I > mess >> up, please let me know. >> >> We're shopping for a Commander and need advise as to what is the best >> one. Our goal it to use it for low level aerial surveillance to look > over >> some land we are interested in. The trips will be in the 300 to >> 600nm > >> range and perhaps an hour or two flying over the land, looking it > over. >> We will do these trips in VFR weather, so deice is not an issue, > pressure >> not necessary and speed really isn't a big factor. However, would > like a >> reasonable well equipped plane, preferably with air. >> >> The Shrike seems like a good choice, but wondering what others I > should >> be considering. The 560s with the geared, but not supercharged > engines >> have been mentioned as good planes. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Larry Olson >> St. Pete >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ >> >> >> >> >> __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 04, 2007
Subject: Re: Four Commanders in Harare?
One of these may be SN 1168-88 ZS-CTC 680F, WFU at Harare Charles Prince 06/1994. There are several listed in there, not telling which ones are on the ramp. If you find out, I like to know as well. Thanks, Bert ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2007
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: New to list
Hey guys, just pointing out that LARRY is the guy who needs help. JOHN is just me, the first guy who replied to him ;-). /John ----- Original Message ----- From: Tylor Hall To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to list John, If you are flying a sealevel to 5-8000', and speed is not a major item, You may want to look a the 500A with the IO-470 Cont. engines. It is slower than the 500B,U,S. One member, Bill Bow, has a nice example that is for sale. It needs an engine overhaul and the other engine was just overhauled. The aircraft is in FL. It is listed on Controller. I had a flight with a professional photographer to film an event. We spent about an hour flying around points on the ground at 500'. It was a lot of turns around a point. As the pilot, I did not have much time to look down, but we spent a lot of time at 45 degrees in turns. It was somewhat bumpy down low but the Commander as a platform was very stable. Tylor Hall tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net On Jun 1, 2007, at 6:16 AM, nico css wrote: Hi John, My take is that if you are going to fly missions that require more than average power adjustments, like sightseeing and inspection flights, to go for direct drive engines. Ordinarily, these flights require either a high number of take-offs and landings or a higher incidence of power adjustments. The type of mission could catch a distracted pilot and hurt geared engines given the right circumstances. With Commanders you will have a very high level of mission-satisfaction. Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:05 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: New to list Larry, I'm going to be in St. Pete from Sunday June 3 through Friday June 8 for vacation on Treasure Island. I have been flying a Shrike for 3 years (800 hours) and wouldn't mind sharing with you. It will be parked at Albert-Whitted airport while we are on Treasure Island. Cell number is 517 881 8959 if you want to talk. Don (based in Michigan) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:18 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to list Hi Larry, Welcome to the list! I hope you'll find it a great resource. As far as which model might do you best, I have a 500B so I'm partial, but the B-model has some great advantages: 1) Direct-drive engines (fuel efficient, can fly them fairly ham-fisted without damaging them) 2) Lycoming IO-540 powered (proven design that's pretty rugged) 3) No spar AD that tends to affect the Shrikes 4) Generally excellent useful loads (mine is 2,238 lbs.!) Mine is turbocharged & deiced, but that's obviously not a factor for you although I think they're great options if you live in mountainous country like I do. These airplanes are perfect for 3-600NM trips. Comfortable, roomy, fast enough (mine's good for ~175 kts. unless I go up above 12,000 where I can get ~190 kts. with the turbos) and great for sightseeing, with the wing above you. One option I LOVE about mine is the pilot door...especially if you're carrying passengers a lot. Also my dispatch reliability has been near 100%....I've missed only 2 trips in 8 years of ownership and they were both due to annuals falling at the wrong time. Hope this helps, /John ----- Original Message ----- From: <asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com> To: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:18 PM Subject: Commander-List: New to list Hi folks, I'm new to the list, and I hope I understand how it works, so if I mess up, please let me know. We're shopping for a Commander and need advise as to what is the best one. Our goal it to use it for low level aerial surveillance to look over some land we are interested in. The trips will be in the 300 to 600nm range and perhaps an hour or two flying over the land, looking it over. We will do these trips in VFR weather, so deice is not an issue, pressure not necessary and speed really isn't a big factor. However, would like a reasonable well equipped plane, preferably with air. The Shrike seems like a good choice, but wondering what others I should be considering. The 560s with the geared, but not supercharged engines have been mentioned as good planes. Thoughts? Larry Olson St. Pete __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ - The Commander-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2307 (20070604) Information __________ __________ NOD32 2307 (20070604) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: New to list
Date: Jun 04, 2007
WHo??? David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Four Commanders in Harare?
Date: Jun 04, 2007
Hi, The one Bert mentioned is the only one I can find on my database as being noted at Harare-Charles Prince airport, in Zimbabwe. I haven't had time to check Google Earth and see if there are indeed three others there, but will do so at my earliest opportunity. But, in what year were the images taken? Last time I checked my own address, my old Merc was parked on the drive and I sold that three or four years ago! Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Four Commanders in Harare? One of these may be SN 1168-88 ZS-CTC 680F, WFU at Harare Charles Prince 06/1994. There are several listed in there, not telling which ones are on the ramp. If you find out, I like to know as well. Thanks, Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Four Commanders in Harare?
Date: Jun 04, 2007
Barry, There is no guarantee when those images were taken, but judging from the high resolution of the images, one can deduce that they were taken pretty recently, whatever that means. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Four Commanders in Harare? Hi, The one Bert mentioned is the only one I can find on my database as being noted at Harare-Charles Prince airport, in Zimbabwe. I haven't had time to check Google Earth and see if there are indeed three others there, but will do so at my earliest opportunity. But, in what year were the images taken? Last time I checked my own address, my old Merc was parked on the drive and I sold that three or four years ago! Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Four Commanders in Harare? One of these may be SN 1168-88 ZS-CTC 680F, WFU at Harare Charles Prince 06/1994. There are several listed in there, not telling which ones are on the ramp. If you find out, I like to know as well. Thanks, Bert _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: New to list
Date: Jun 04, 2007
John, OK it is LARRY then. And the next set of finger prints on you windows may be mine. I know where you park. I will be in San Jose on Thursday and Friday. Tylor Hall On Jun 4, 2007, at 1:32 PM, John Vormbaum wrote: > Hey guys, just pointing out that LARRY is the guy who needs help. > JOHN is just me, the first guy who replied to him ;-). > > /John > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tylor Hall > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:51 PM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to list > > John, > If you are flying a sealevel to 5-8000', and speed is not a major > item, You may want to look a the 500A with the IO-470 Cont. > engines. It is slower than the 500B,U,S. > > One member, Bill Bow, has a nice example that is for sale. It > needs an engine overhaul and the other engine was just overhauled. > The aircraft is in FL. It is listed on Controller. > > I had a flight with a professional photographer to film an event. > We spent about an hour flying around points on the ground at 500'. > It was a lot of turns around a point. As the pilot, I did not > have much time to look down, but we spent a lot of time at 45 > degrees in turns. It was somewhat bumpy down low but the Commander > as a platform was very stable. > > Tylor Hall > tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net > > > On Jun 1, 2007, at 6:16 AM, nico css wrote: > >> >> >> Hi John, >> My take is that if you are going to fly missions that require more >> than >> average power adjustments, like sightseeing and inspection >> flights, to go >> for direct drive engines. Ordinarily, these flights require either >> a high >> number of take-offs and landings or a higher incidence of power >> adjustments. >> The type of mission could catch a distracted pilot and hurt geared >> engines >> given the right circumstances. >> With Commanders you will have a very high level of mission- >> satisfaction. >> Nico >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:05 PM >> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Commander-List: New to list >> >> >> Larry, >> >> I'm going to be in St. Pete from Sunday June 3 through Friday June >> 8 for >> vacation on Treasure Island. I have been flying a Shrike for 3 years >> (800 hours) and wouldn't mind sharing with you. It will be parked at >> Albert-Whitted airport while we are on Treasure Island. >> >> Cell number is 517 881 8959 if you want to talk. >> >> Don (based in Michigan) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John >> Vormbaum >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:18 PM >> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Commander-List: New to list >> >> >> >> Hi Larry, >> >> Welcome to the list! I hope you'll find it a great resource. As >> far as >> which >> model might do you best, I have a 500B so I'm partial, but the B- >> model >> has >> some great advantages: >> >> 1) Direct-drive engines (fuel efficient, can fly them fairly ham- >> fisted >> without damaging them) >> 2) Lycoming IO-540 powered (proven design that's pretty rugged) >> 3) No spar AD that tends to affect the Shrikes >> 4) Generally excellent useful loads (mine is 2,238 lbs.!) >> >> Mine is turbocharged & deiced, but that's obviously not a factor >> for you >> >> although I think they're great options if you live in mountainous >> country >> like I do. These airplanes are perfect for 3-600NM trips. >> Comfortable, >> roomy, fast enough (mine's good for ~175 kts. unless I go up above >> 12,000 >> where I can get ~190 kts. with the turbos) and great for sightseeing, >> with >> the wing above you. >> >> One option I LOVE about mine is the pilot door...especially if you're >> carrying passengers a lot. Also my dispatch reliability has been near >> 100%....I've missed only 2 trips in 8 years of ownership and they >> were >> both >> due to annuals falling at the wrong time. >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> /John >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com> >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:18 PM >> Subject: Commander-List: New to list >> >> >>> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> I'm new to the list, and I hope I understand how it works, so if I >> mess >>> up, please let me know. >>> >>> We're shopping for a Commander and need advise as to what is the >>> best >>> one. Our goal it to use it for low level aerial surveillance to look >> over >>> some land we are interested in. The trips will be in the 300 to >>> 600nm >> >>> range and perhaps an hour or two flying over the land, looking it >> over. >>> We will do these trips in VFR weather, so deice is not an issue, >> pressure >>> not necessary and speed really isn't a big factor. However, would >> like a >>> reasonable well equipped plane, preferably with air. >>> >>> The Shrike seems like a good choice, but wondering what others I >> should >>> be considering. The 560s with the geared, but not supercharged >> engines >>> have been mentioned as good planes. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Larry Olson >>> St. Pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ NOD32 2297 (20070530) Information __________ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - The Commander-List Email Forum - >> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> --> http://forums.matronics.com >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http:// >> forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com NOD32 2307 >> (20070604) Information __________ >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "alh1(at)juno.com" <alh1(at)juno.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2007
Subject: Re: New to list
lots of replies to larry and john, but nothing more from larry. larry, how much would you like to spend? remember speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? al hoffman n628ah ________________________________________________________________________________
From: skyhawkc-172(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: New to list
Date: Jun 05, 2007
You can go slow as a little bird or fast as a jet... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6zeTGPZA_A just keep moderation in mind... b -------------- Original message -------------- From: "alh1(at)juno.com" <alh1(at)juno.com> > > lots of replies to larry and john, but nothing more from larry. larry, > how much would you like to spend? remember speed costs money, how fast > do you want to go? al hoffman n628ah > > > > > >
You can go slow as a little bird or fast as a jet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6zeTGPZA_A

just keep moderation in mind...

b

=====

________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Kirkwood" <bkirkwoo(at)elp.rr.com>
Subject: STC for new props
Date: Jun 08, 2007
I am due for the prop AD on my Commander 560E and would like to know information about the STC for changing the props. I would like as much information as possible, and in particular, the price, part numbers for the props, part numbers for the new spinners, etc. Thanks. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: STC for new props
Date: Jun 09, 2007
Bill; Depending on location, Harry in Titusville, Fl. did mine this last year. Jimbob owns the STC. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Kirkwood To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Commander-List: STC for new props I am due for the prop AD on my Commander 560E and would like to know information about the STC for changing the props. I would like as much information as possible, and in particular, the price, part numbers for the props, part numbers for the new spinners, etc. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 6/8/2007 3:15 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Serial Number plates
Date: Jun 08, 2007
Hi Guys, I'd like to get a better handle on exactly what is presented in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." portion of the Commander's s/n plate. It seems that most of them do not include the Model, but the 680 & 680F seem to do so. For instance, I have examples of: a Model 680, which shows "680-317-12" a Model 680FLP, which shows "680FLP-1475-4" but ...... a Model 500B, which shows "1502-178" a Model 680W, which shows "1849-45" Now I know why the Wing Commander uses the signature 'tag'; "Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere." So, if you have a few minutes to spare next time you're with your Commander, would you be kind enough to take a close-up shot of your plate for me? Of course, if you get the chance to photograph any others you find in your travels, then that'll be a big bonus! I will be checking them myself more carefully in future, of course. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Serial Number plates
Date: Jun 09, 2007
Sir Barry, I believe that the second number after the model number was the actual serial number of the airframe. The last number was the number of airframes built of that particular model. So we would have 680 model with the chronological serial number 317 and it would be the 12th 680 built. Later I believe that the manufacturers, Probably Rockwell dropped putting the model number in as part of the serial number. Thus we would know from the data plate that it was a model 500B, then the serial number would tell us that chronologically it was airframe number 1502 and would have been the 12th 500B built. I might have it all wrong though. See you in Texas. Regards Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, 9 June 2007 6:24 AM Subject: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Hi Guys, I'd like to get a better handle on exactly what is presented in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." portion of the Commander's s/n plate. It seems that most of them do not include the Model, but the 680 & 680F seem to do so. For instance, I have examples of: a Model 680, which shows "680-317-12" a Model 680FLP, which shows "680FLP-1475-4" but ...... a Model 500B, which shows "1502-178" a Model 680W, which shows "1849-45" Now I know why the Wing Commander uses the signature 'tag'; "Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere." So, if you have a few minutes to spare next time you're with your Commander, would you be kind enough to take a close-up shot of your plate for me? Of course, if you get the chance to photograph any others you find in your travels, then that'll be a big bonus! I will be checking them myself more carefully in future, of course. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Serial Number plates
Date: Jun 09, 2007
Hi Richard, Absolutely correct! What I'm trying to ascertain though is the engraving that is inscribed in the 'boxed' portion titled "Manufacturer's Serial No.". It seems that for some Models the factory included the Model in that portion of the plate and other Models they didn't. I'm just trying to ascertain which Models used, for example (using a fictitious Commander!) "680-400-50" and which used simply "400-50". What does your 680E show? It will, of course, have "680E" in the "Manufacturer's Model" section at the top, but what is engraved in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." section? "680E-851-73" or .. "851-73" Or, will I be able to check it myself at Fredericksburg? ;-) Sincere Best Regards Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard & Jacqui Thompson To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 12:18 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Sir Barry, I believe that the second number after the model number was the actual serial number of the airframe. The last number was the number of airframes built of that particular model. So we would have 680 model with the chronological serial number 317 and it would be the 12th 680 built. Later I believe that the manufacturers, Probably Rockwell dropped putting the model number in as part of the serial number. Thus we would know from the data plate that it was a model 500B, then the serial number would tell us that chronologically it was airframe number 1502 and would have been the 12th 500B built. I might have it all wrong though. See you in Texas. Regards Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, 9 June 2007 6:24 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Hi Guys, I'd like to get a better handle on exactly what is presented in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." portion of the Commander's s/n plate. It seems that most of them do not include the Model, but the 680 & 680F seem to do so. For instance, I have examples of: a Model 680, which shows "680-317-12" a Model 680FLP, which shows "680FLP-1475-4" but ...... a Model 500B, which shows "1502-178" a Model 680W, which shows "1849-45" Now I know why the Wing Commander uses the signature 'tag'; "Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere." So, if you have a few minutes to spare next time you're with your Commander, would you be kind enough to take a close-up shot of your plate for me? Of course, if you get the chance to photograph any others you find in your travels, then that'll be a big bonus! I will be checking them myself more carefully in future, of course. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Serial Number plates
Date: Jun 08, 2007
Barry, I am not sure if I already showed these pictures but this is 680F rotting away in South Africa at Wonderboom Airport, Pretoria. I was in Pretoria a week ago but didn't have an opportunity to see whether the Commanders that were on that airport are still there. You can back up to the parent directory and see other Commanders too. Some of the pictures of the plate didn't come out well. http://www.teletuition.org/documents/aviation/AeroCommanders/ZS-IMY/ Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:24 PM Subject: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Hi Guys, I'd like to get a better handle on exactly what is presented in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." portion of the Commander's s/n plate. It seems that most of them do not include the Model, but the 680 & 680F seem to do so. For instance, I have examples of: a Model 680, which shows "680-317-12" a Model 680FLP, which shows "680FLP-1475-4" but ...... a Model 500B, which shows "1502-178" a Model 680W, which shows "1849-45" Now I know why the Wing Commander uses the signature 'tag'; "Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere." So, if you have a few minutes to spare next time you're with your Commander, would you be kind enough to take a close-up shot of your plate for me? Of course, if you get the chance to photograph any others you find in your travels, then that'll be a big bonus! I will be checking them myself more carefully in future, of course. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Serial Number plates
Date: Jun 09, 2007
Barry Old Chap, Could not tell you what mine is like. Will look on Monday and take a photo for you. Remember that this is not the original but a copy supplied by Twin Commander. I believe that they had the original style copied for me. Just one of the many times they have helped me out in the past. Geoffrey Pence is THE MAN. One day when its finished and I am not digging aeroplanes that belong to me out of swamps I will get it over to the states. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, 9 June 2007 9:54 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Hi Richard, Absolutely correct! What I'm trying to ascertain though is the engraving that is inscribed in the 'boxed' portion titled "Manufacturer's Serial No.". It seems that for some Models the factory included the Model in that portion of the plate and other Models they didn't. I'm just trying to ascertain which Models used, for example (using a fictitious Commander!) "680-400-50" and which used simply "400-50". What does your 680E show? It will, of course, have "680E" in the "Manufacturer's Model" section at the top, but what is engraved in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." section? "680E-851-73" or .. "851-73" Or, will I be able to check it myself at Fredericksburg? ;-) Sincere Best Regards Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard <mailto:RnJThompson(at)aol.com> & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 12:18 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Sir Barry, I believe that the second number after the model number was the actual serial number of the airframe. The last number was the number of airframes built of that particular model. So we would have 680 model with the chronological serial number 317 and it would be the 12th 680 built. Later I believe that the manufacturers, Probably Rockwell dropped putting the model number in as part of the serial number. Thus we would know from the data plate that it was a model 500B, then the serial number would tell us that chronologically it was airframe number 1502 and would have been the 12th 500B built. I might have it all wrong though. See you in Texas. Regards Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, 9 June 2007 6:24 AM Subject: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Hi Guys, I'd like to get a better handle on exactly what is presented in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." portion of the Commander's s/n plate. It seems that most of them do not include the Model, but the 680 & 680F seem to do so. For instance, I have examples of: a Model 680, which shows "680-317-12" a Model 680FLP, which shows "680FLP-1475-4" but ...... a Model 500B, which shows "1502-178" a Model 680W, which shows "1849-45" Now I know why the Wing Commander uses the signature 'tag'; "Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere." So, if you have a few minutes to spare next time you're with your Commander, would you be kind enough to take a close-up shot of your plate for me? Of course, if you get the chance to photograph any others you find in your travels, then that'll be a big bonus! I will be checking them myself more carefully in future, of course. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matron ic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Serial Number plates
Date: Jun 09, 2007
Hi Nico, Thanks for that. Hopefully during your next visit there, you'll have time to hunt a few Commanders down! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 7:35 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Barry, I am not sure if I already showed these pictures but this is 680F rotting away in South Africa at Wonderboom Airport, Pretoria. I was in Pretoria a week ago but didn't have an opportunity to see whether the Commanders that were on that airport are still there. You can back up to the parent directory and see other Commanders too. Some of the pictures of the plate didn't come out well. http://www.teletuition.org/documents/aviation/AeroCommanders/ZS-IMY/ Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:24 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Hi Guys, I'd like to get a better handle on exactly what is presented in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." portion of the Commander's s/n plate. It seems that most of them do not include the Model, but the 680 & 680F seem to do so. For instance, I have examples of: a Model 680, which shows "680-317-12" a Model 680FLP, which shows "680FLP-1475-4" but ...... a Model 500B, which shows "1502-178" a Model 680W, which shows "1849-45" Now I know why the Wing Commander uses the signature 'tag'; "Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere." So, if you have a few minutes to spare next time you're with your Commander, would you be kind enough to take a close-up shot of your plate for me? Of course, if you get the chance to photograph any others you find in your travels, then that'll be a big bonus! I will be checking them myself more carefully in future, of course. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Serial Number plates
Date: Jun 09, 2007
Hi Richard, I had forgotten that you had to get a new plate. It will be interesting to see what your new one says, just to compare it with other 680E's. Very Best regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard & Jacqui Thompson To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Barry Old Chap, Could not tell you what mine is like. Will look on Monday and take a photo for you. Remember that this is not the original but a copy supplied by Twin Commander. I believe that they had the original style copied for me. Just one of the many times they have helped me out in the past. Geoffrey Pence is THE MAN. One day when its finished and I am not digging aeroplanes that belong to me out of swamps I will get it over to the states. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, 9 June 2007 9:54 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Hi Richard, Absolutely correct! What I'm trying to ascertain though is the engraving that is inscribed in the 'boxed' portion titled "Manufacturer's Serial No.". It seems that for some Models the factory included the Model in that portion of the plate and other Models they didn't. I'm just trying to ascertain which Models used, for example (using a fictitious Commander!) "680-400-50" and which used simply "400-50". What does your 680E show? It will, of course, have "680E" in the "Manufacturer's Model" section at the top, but what is engraved in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." section? "680E-851-73" or .. "851-73" Or, will I be able to check it myself at Fredericksburg? ;-) Sincere Best Regards Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard & Jacqui Thompson To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 12:18 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Sir Barry, I believe that the second number after the model number was the actual serial number of the airframe. The last number was the number of airframes built of that particular model. So we would have 680 model with the chronological serial number 317 and it would be the 12th 680 built. Later I believe that the manufacturers, Probably Rockwell dropped putting the model number in as part of the serial number. Thus we would know from the data plate that it was a model 500B, then the serial number would tell us that chronologically it was airframe number 1502 and would have been the 12th 500B built. I might have it all wrong though. See you in Texas. Regards Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, 9 June 2007 6:24 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Serial Number plates Hi Guys, I'd like to get a better handle on exactly what is presented in the "Manufacturer's Serial No." portion of the Commander's s/n plate. It seems that most of them do not include the Model, but the 680 & 680F seem to do so. For instance, I have examples of: a Model 680, which shows "680-317-12" a Model 680FLP, which shows "680FLP-1475-4" but ...... a Model 500B, which shows "1502-178" a Model 680W, which shows "1849-45" Now I know why the Wing Commander uses the signature 'tag'; "Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere." So, if you have a few minutes to spare next time you're with your Commander, would you be kind enough to take a close-up shot of your plate for me? Of course, if you get the chance to photograph any others you find in your travels, then that'll be a big bonus! I will be checking them myself more carefully in future, of course. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2007
Any Seneca experts out there??????? I do not see many Seneca IVs for sale. What kind of price range should they be in. Anything especially bad about the IVs vs 3s or 5s? -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117658#117658 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 11, 2007
Seneca? That's a Piper aircraft, ain't it? Nobody would keep one of those long enough to get an "expert" tag, would they ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:55 PM Subject: Commander-List: Any Seneca experts in the crowd | | Any Seneca experts out there??????? | | | I do not see many Seneca IVs for sale. What kind of price range should they be in. Anything especially bad about the IVs vs 3s or 5s? | | -------- | Milt | 2003 F1 Rocket | 2006 Radial Rocket| | | Read this topic online here: | | http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117658#117658 | | | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 11, 2007
Oh Barry, Yeah of little faith. Mr Pipers contribution to aviation is producing aeroplanes that the sole reason for the rudder pedals is for somewhere to rest your feet. (excluding the TAILDRAGGERS). Seneca 3,4 and 5s are fun little airplanes to fly. The early 1 + 2s are really on the gutless side. I think for Milt they would probably be a single seater (Ha Ha). Hey Milt are you going to the flyin? Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Monday, 11 June 2007 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Any Seneca experts in the crowd Seneca? That's a Piper aircraft, ain't it? Nobody would keep one of those long enough to get an "expert" tag, would they ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" < <mailto:airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:55 PM Subject: Commander-List: Any Seneca experts in the crowd airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> | | Any Seneca experts out there??????? | | | I do not see many Seneca IVs for sale. What kind of price range should they be in. Anything especially bad about the IVs vs 3s or 5s? | | -------- | Milt | 2003 F1 Rocket | 2006 Radial Rocket| | | Read this topic online here: | | <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117658#117658> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117658#117658 | | | | ========== | Commander-List browse | Archive and much href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matron ic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List | ========== | bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com | =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2007
> are you going to the flyin? > I had been planning on it but I crashed 2 weeks ago [Embarassed] and at the moment without a plane. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117673#117673 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 10, 2007
I have about 700 hrs on a Seneca 2 and loved every minute of it, though I cannot claim to be an expert. It's very forgiving and after the lame Seneca 1, it was a blast to fly. Then I had a ride in a III and was rather disappointed in its performance, perhaps because the 2 had two-blade props while the 3 had 3-blade props. I don't know whether I was just prejudiced. Probably. The Seneca 1 is a disaster. Piper didn't learn from the Apache. If I ever get into a position to buy a Commander again, I would opt for the Shrike with turbo-normalized engines, or an A with Colemills, mostly because of the experience I had with the Seneca. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 4:29 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Any Seneca experts in the crowd Oh Barry, Yeah of little faith. Mr Pipers contribution to aviation is producing aeroplanes that the sole reason for the rudder pedals is for somewhere to rest your feet. (excluding the TAILDRAGGERS). Seneca 3,4 and 5s are fun little airplanes to fly. The early 1 + 2s are really on the gutless side. I think for Milt they would probably be a single seater (Ha Ha). Hey Milt are you going to the flyin? Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Monday, 11 June 2007 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Any Seneca experts in the crowd Seneca? That's a Piper aircraft, ain't it? Nobody would keep one of those long enough to get an "expert" tag, would they ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" < <mailto:airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:55 PM Subject: Commander-List: Any Seneca experts in the crowd airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> | | Any Seneca experts out there??????? | | | I do not see many Seneca IVs for sale. What kind of price range should they be in. Anything especially bad about the IVs vs 3s or 5s? | | -------- | Milt | 2003 F1 Rocket | 2006 Radial Rocket| | | Read this topic online here: | | <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117658#117658> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117658#117658 | | | | ========== | Commander-List browse | Archive and much href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List | ========== | bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com | =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 10, 2007
No. I've got nothing to go in but a Yukon. What happened? Did you wreck the new radial rocket? bb -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd > are you going to the flyin? > I had been planning on it but I crashed 2 weeks ago [Embarassed] and at the moment without a plane. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117673#117673 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 12, 2007
I had been planning on it but I crashed 2 weeks ago [Embarassed] and at the moment without a plane. You know Milt, Orvile & Wilber said, "Some days the air has NO lift". It is my thoughts that on those days, one should only taxi. Glad you are OK. Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 10, 2007
Sorry to hear about that, Milt. Are you OK? What happened? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bow Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 7:46 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd No. I've got nothing to go in but a Yukon. What happened? Did you wreck the new radial rocket? bb -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd > are you going to the flyin? > I had been planning on it but I crashed 2 weeks ago [Embarassed] and at the moment without a plane. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117673#117673 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 11, 2007
Subject: Re: STC for new props
In a message dated 6/8/2007 5:31:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bkirkwoo(at)elp.rr.com writes: I am due for the prop AD on my Commander 560E and would like to know information about the STC for changing the props. I would like as much information as possible, and in particular, the price, part numbers for the props, part numbers for the new spinners, etc. Thanks. HELLO The STC will allow you to install a pair of Hartzell HC B3Z/10151 propellers on your 560E. These are found on the 340HP version of the Beech Twin Bonanza and the early Queen Airs. They require the larger spinner used with electric or alcohol de-ice systems. Contact me at _YOURTCFG(at)AOL.com_ (mailto:YOURTCFG(at)AOL.com) Or call 360-903-6901 (I talk faster than I type) and I will fill you in. Jim Metzger ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <steveg(at)nternet.com>
Subject: Bad Day
Date: Jun 11, 2007
See article from Sydney Herald about an Commander having a bad day. Seems things were falling apart. Window falls from plane, misses footballers * * Email <http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupEmailArticle.pl?path=/articles/20 07/06/11/1181414216958.html> * Print <http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/window-falls-from-plane-misses-football ers/2007/06/11/1181414216958.html##> * Normal font <http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/window-falls-from-plane-misses-football ers/2007/06/11/1181414216958.html##> * Large font <http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/window-falls-from-plane-misses-football ers/2007/06/11/1181414216958.html##> June 11, 2007 - 9:10PM Advertisement Advertisement A window that blew out of a light aircraft plunged about 1000 metres and narrowly missed soccer players on a ground in Melbourne's north today. The startled players watched anxiously as the heavy window slammed harmlessly into a patch of grass near the oval at Bundoora, just after 2pm (AEST). The emergency window, weighing several kilograms, fell off the veteran six-seater aircraft shortly after it took off from Essendon Airport, said Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) spokesman Peter Gibson. Mr Gibson said the aircraft - a Rockwell Aero Commander last manufactured in the 1970s - was flying at between 2000 and 3000ft and the pilot was able to turn back and land safely at Essendon Airport. He said the plane had not been in any danger but "obviously you don't want parts falling off an aircraft". "Apart from the risk to the aircraft, there's also a risk to people on the ground," Mr Gibson said. "You wouldn't want to be near it (when it fell). "Obviously at that altitude there is plenty of oxygen to breathe and you wouldn't be sucked out. It would be very noisy, but the plane wasn't in any danger." CASA and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau will investigate. Mr Gibson did not know how many people were on board the plane, where it was headed, or if it was operating privately or on charter. Mr Gibson said it was quite rare for a part to break off an aircraft in flight. "Over the last eight years I can recall two to three occasions where a door or window has fallen out, so it does happen," he added. Steve G ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2007
nico(at)cybersuperstore.c wrote: > Sorry to hear about that, Milt. Are you OK? What happened? > > -- Engine lost most of its power didn't have enough to sustain flight. Managed to plunk it down on a grass field. Tore up the landing gear, prop strike and supercharger sucked up a bunch of dirt and debris that toasted the engine. It was the Radial. Looks about 8-9 months of repair work and waiting on a new engine and prop. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117769#117769 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 11, 2007
From: cloudcraft(at)aol.com
Nice plunking, Milt.? You're still here to contribute to the email net!? That's the part I like. Wing Commander Gordon -----Original Message----- From: N395V <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> Sent: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 6:06 am Subject: Commander-List: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd nico(at)cybersuperstore.c wrote: > Sorry to hear about that, Milt. Are you OK? What happened? > > -- Engine lost most of its power didn't have enough to sustain flight. Managed to plunk it down on a grass field. Tore up the landing gear, prop strike and supercharger sucked up a bunch of dirt and debris that toasted the engine. It was the Radial. Looks about 8-9 months of repair work and waiting on a new engine and prop. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117769#117769 ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 11, 2007
Milt, Glad you're OK! Sounds like you did a fine piece of flying to limit the damage to what you mention below. /John ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 6:06 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd > > > > nico(at)cybersuperstore.c wrote: >> Sorry to hear about that, Milt. Are you OK? What happened? >> >> -- > > > Engine lost most of its power didn't have enough to sustain flight. > > Managed to plunk it down on a grass field. Tore up the landing gear, prop > strike and supercharger sucked up a bunch of dirt and debris that toasted > the engine. It was the Radial. Looks about 8-9 months of repair work and > waiting on a new engine and prop. > > -------- > Milt > 2003 F1 Rocket > 2006 Radial Rocket > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117769#117769 > > > __________ NOD32 2321 (20070610) Information __________ > > > __________ NOD32 2321 (20070610) Information __________ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Any Seneca experts in the crowd
Date: Jun 11, 2007
I bought my first Commander so I would not have to fly the local flying club's Senecas. Tom F. C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 2:55 PM Subject: Commander-List: Any Seneca experts in the crowd > > > Any Seneca experts out there??????? > > > I do not see many Seneca IVs for sale. What kind of price range should > they be in. Anything especially bad about the IVs vs 3s or 5s? > > -------- > Milt > 2003 F1 Rocket > 2006 Radial Rocket > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117658#117658 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2007
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: tires
Hello fellow Commanders, A very good ole friend of mine by the name of W.E. McLaughlin (7 time commander owner) based here at EKY has two tires he would like to sell: "Air Hawk" 8.50-10 6 ply rating Type III AB3N4 He will sell these for $100.00 ea. + shipping and they are new, never installed with the label still on the tread. I cannot use them myself for mine have to be 8 PR, check this about yours as well. Any one interested, let me know and I will forward, he is 82 years old and isn't about to get an email address or PC! N69PT Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 13, 2007
Subject: Fwd: El Sid Interior
-----------------------------1181748763-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Fwd: El Sid Interior
Date: Jun 13, 2007
That didn't work well bilbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fwd: El Sid Interior -----------------------------1181748763-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Subject: Fwd: El Sid Interior
-----------------------------1181748763-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Subject: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior
opps!! ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior
Date: Jun 14, 2007
The same pattern repeating over and over. I think it may be attempting to communicate with us. Perhaps a sign of intelligent life? ----- Original Message ----- From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:18 AM Subject: Commander-List: Fwd: El Sid Interior > -----------------------------1181748763-- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior
From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2007
????????????????????WTF? -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=118382#118382 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Fwd: El Sid Interior
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Quite possible. However, it's perhaps too early to tell because it's just static that's coming over. Do you have your ISC's (inter-stellar confromigator) squelch turned up all the way? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:48 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fwd: El Sid Interior The same pattern repeating over and over. I think it may be attempting to communicate with us. Perhaps a sign of intelligent life? ----- Original Message ----- From: <YOURTCFG(at)aol.com> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:18 AM Subject: Commander-List: Fwd: El Sid Interior > -----------------------------1181748763-- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <steveg(at)nternet.com>
Subject: ACs parting out
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Barry, Thought you might find this link to a salvage yard closeout. Appears they have a few AeroCommanders parting out. I have emailed the owner for N numbers but have no reply as of yet so you might try also before they are lost forever history wise. http://www.earleaircraft.com Regards, Steve Gilson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <steveg(at)nternet.com>
Subject: Parting out
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Barry, I just spoke with Norman Earle of Earle Aircraft (re: earlier email). Exciting news. He saved almost all the data plates and even has more, even many log books. Even parted out some in the Bahamas. Said he thinks he parted out one there that was Serial #3, a straight 520 and even has that plate along with tons of pictures of many of them. I told him about your efforts and he said by all means email him and he will provide all information he can for your efforts. His phone number is Norman Earle at 386-689-0244, email is earleac(at)aol.com . Regards, Steve Gilson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Parting out
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Hi Steve, Sincere and grateful thanks! I seem to recall that I spoke to or contacted Earle Aircraft at least 12 years ago now and got details of the Commanders they were parting out. However, later on I'll check what they show on their Website (http://www.earleaircraft.com:80/) and compare that to what I have on my database. In any event, I'll contact Norman Earle anyway. Never does any harm to introduce myself and establish a good contact. Thanks again Steve! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:32 PM Subject: Commander-List: Parting out Barry, I just spoke with Norman Earle of Earle Aircraft (re: earlier email). Exciting news. He saved almost all the data plates and even has more, even many log books. Even parted out some in the Bahamas. Said he thinks he parted out one there that was Serial #3, a straight 520 and even has that plate along with tons of pictures of many of them. I told him about your efforts and he said by all means email him and he will provide all information he can for your efforts. His phone number is Norman Earle at 386-689-0244, email is earleac(at)aol.com . Regards, Steve Gilson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Whats this anyway?? Some kind of secret code??? :) David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Hi David, Yes, it is ! Haven't you been given the Code Book? Send me $150 and I'll get one in the post ;-) On a serious note, have I ever sent you the complete history, as I know it, of N14AV? If not, let me know and I'll email you an Excel .xls file. Best Regards, Barry Collman UK CommanderLand Rep. High Wycombe, England "Live life on the edge - if you don't take up too much space" ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior | | Whats this anyway?? Some kind of secret code??? :) | | | | | David Owens | Aerial Viewpoint | N14AV | AC-500A-Colemill | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Sooooo Cool... I dont have any info in that area, other than the person we bought it from that did not make it after an accident in a 337... (his camera operator did make it). Before that I believe 14av belonged to the state of N. Carolina... Nothing before that. Thank you in advance for some really cool info. (We do have all the books, but thats allot of reading, and wading through) David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: N14AV history
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Hi David, An .xls file is attached, showing the history of s/n 914-22. The data has been gleaned from paperwork filed at the FAA and factory records held by Twin Commander. If there's anything, anything at all, that you can add, or correct, then please do let me know. One question, when the RC-10 camera was installed, was it accomplished under an STC? I presume it wasn't quoted on the Form 337. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: David Owens To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior Sooooo Cool... I dont have any info in that area, other than the person we bought it from that did not make it after an accident in a 337... (his camera operator did make it). Before that I believe 14av belonged to the state of N. Carolina... Nothing before that. Thank you in advance for some really cool info. (We do have all the books, but thats allot of reading, and wading through) David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Parting out
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Barry; Does your records show that N2707B, has JimBob's STC and new props on it? Anyway, Harry put them on last Dec. '06. Just for your records. Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Parting out
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Hi Don, No, I didn't know that, so thanks for letting me know. I presume the props were installed under Jim's STC SA01105SE. Were they the HC-B3Z20-2A/10151(B)-8(R) or the HC-93Z20-2C/10151(B)-8(R). And, which 'bits' in brackets, if any, were applicable? If a Form 337 was sent to the FAA, I can check the full date the installation was signed-off as. Sincere Best regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Girod To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Parting out Barry; Does your records show that N2707B, has JimBob's STC and new props on it? Anyway, Harry put them on last Dec. '06. Just for your records. Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: N14AV history
Date: Jun 14, 2007
FYI, anyone looking for a factory camera port, gary@ commander aero has the one we removed from 2001M. mason From: barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.ukTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubjec t: Commander-List: N14AV historyDate: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:40:01 +0100 Hi David, An .xls file is attached, showing the history of s/n 914-22. The data has been gleaned from paperwork filed at the FAA and factory recor ds held by Twin Commander. If there's anything, anything at all, that you can add, or correct, then pl ease do let me know. One question, when the RC-10 camera was installed, was it accomplished unde r an STC? I presume it wasn't quoted on the Form 337. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: David Owens Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior Sooooo Cool... I dont have any info in that area, other than the person we bought it from that did not make it after an accident in a 337... (his came ra operator did make it). Before that I believe 14av belonged to the state of N. Carolina... Nothing before that. Thank you in advance for some really cool info. (We do have all the books, but thats allot of reading, and wadi ng through) David OwensAerial ViewpointN14AVAC-500A-Colemill href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: N14AV history
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Hi Mason, That's interesting, as I didn't know that 680F(P) s/n 1208-109 had a camera installation! If you can help with all, or any, of the following, I'll be most grateful: 1. When was it installed? 2. What STC was used (or Factory Drawing)? 3. What Make & Model Camera was it? I didn't find anything on this in Factory records (Warranty File) or the papers filed at the FAA. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: N14AV history FYI, anyone looking for a factory camera port, gary@ commander aero has the one we removed from 2001M. mason ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: N14AV history Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:40:01 +0100 Hi David, An .xls file is attached, showing the history of s/n 914-22. The data has been gleaned from paperwork filed at the FAA and factory records held by Twin Commander. If there's anything, anything at all, that you can add, or correct, then please do let me know. One question, when the RC-10 camera was installed, was it accomplished under an STC? I presume it wasn't quoted on the Form 337. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: David Owens To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior Sooooo Cool... I dont have any info in that area, other than the person we bought it from that did not make it after an accident in a 337... (his camera operator did make it). Before that I believe 14av belonged to the state of N. Carolina... Nothing before that. Thank you in advance for some really cool info. (We do have all the books, but thats allot of reading, and wading through) David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Google Commander Flight
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Folks, As we fly our photo survey missions, our navigation software records our 3D position. We had an interesting flight the other day, and for the first time we dumped the 'breadcrumbs' of our flight into Google Earth. I know other folks here have used Google to view things, so I thought I would post a file to our website. It's pretty small. On our 'Downloads Page' is a file, "New York Flight". You can right-click, save and unzip the file, then double-click the file if you have Google Earth. The job was down 1/2 mile south of JFK at 1200', though we never made it. It was the day the whole system went down (last Friday, I think). You intercept the Hudson River and fly southbound on the west side. I hit the river at about West Point and dropped to 1500'. Following the river down, NY wanted me to cross the George Washington, hang a left over Central Park, a right down the East River, and then turn 130(?) after the Williamburg Bridge. Just shy of the bridge I was told the system was down, JFK couldn't take me, what do you want to do? Took a second to figure that out and told LaGuardia however they got me eastbound to Hyannis (out on Cape Cod) was fine with me. Got told to do a 180, fly up the eastern edge of the East River until the tip of Roosevelt Island. Then hang a right and head direct for the Laguardia Tower cab, and then the south stanchion of the Throgs Neck Bridge. I was awful worried about my geography holding up at that point, but I did ok. (Went into the City a lot as a kid.) Out around Newport RI we spotted a sailboat race starting, and saw some beautiful boats heeled hard over, so I had to drop down and have Shaun fire the camera. You can see the decent in the flight path. Hit our job on the Cape, figured we'd head back for New York City and try our luck again, but passing Islip we gave up and shut the nav system down. Try 'tipping' the view at a pretty good angle to view it, and then drag along and follow. You can also run an animation on the track........ Hoping some might get a kick out of this...... Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Parting out
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Barry; I'm not sure and I don't have the paperwork here at the house, Harry Merritt did it so he can answer all those questions, they were off a Queen Air, zero time out of overhaul. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Parting out Hi Don, No, I didn't know that, so thanks for letting me know. I presume the props were installed under Jim's STC SA01105SE. Were they the HC-B3Z20-2A/10151(B)-8(R) or the HC-93Z20-2C/10151(B)-8(R). And, which 'bits' in brackets, if any, were applicable? If a Form 337 was sent to the FAA, I can check the full date the installation was signed-off as. Sincere Best regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Girod To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Parting out Barry; Does your records show that N2707B, has JimBob's STC and new props on it? Anyway, Harry put them on last Dec. '06. Just for your records. Don href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 6/14/2007 12:44 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Subject: Re: Google Commander Flight
I missed the link to the website. Thanks Bert ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Parting out
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Hi Don, No worries. I should be able to check it in September, when I next visit the Mike Moroney Center in Oklahoma City. ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Girod To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Parting out Barry; I'm not sure and I don't have the paperwork here at the house, Harry Merritt did it so he can answer all those questions, they were off a Queen Air, zero time out of overhaul. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Parting out Hi Don, No, I didn't know that, so thanks for letting me know. I presume the props were installed under Jim's STC SA01105SE. Were they the HC-B3Z20-2A/10151(B)-8(R) or the HC-93Z20-2C/10151(B)-8(R). And, which 'bits' in brackets, if any, were applicable? If a Form 337 was sent to the FAA, I can check the full date the installation was signed-off as. Sincere Best regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Girod To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Parting out Barry; Does your records show that N2707B, has JimBob's STC and new props on it? Anyway, Harry put them on last Dec. '06. Just for your records. Don href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: 6/14/2007 12:44 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <steveg(at)nternet.com>
Subject: Google Commander Flight
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Bert, If your email is to me for earle aircraft than the link is http://www.earleaircraft.com Steve G. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BertBerry1(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 2:16 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight I missed the link to the website. Thanks Bert _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Google Commander Flight
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Steve G., I think I just figured out how to sign with 'Steve at Col-East.' I'm very sure you wouldn't want anyone thinking you were me. Steve W. ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight Bert, If your email is to me for earle aircraft than the link is http://www.earleaircraft.com Steve G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BertBerry1(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 2:16 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight I missed the link to the website. Thanks Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Call to check
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Hi, If Tom Kinnaird or David Maytag are still monitoring the 'chatlist', please email me, as I've some old photos for you to check for me. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry Collman ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: N14AV history
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Downtown Airpark did the install... David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: N14AV history
Date: Jun 14, 2007
bc, the camera system was seemingly unknown to everyone. it was installed at the factory when built. we discovered the structure while installing t he new auto pilot system. we removed all of the structure and i gave it to commander aero for there help. there was no opening or camera mounted. by the way i still have not received the history from you on 2001M. possibly this fall. look forward to seeing you . mason From: barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.ukTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubjec t: Re: Commander-List: N14AV historyDate: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:13:19 +0100 Hi Mason, That's interesting, as I didn't know that 680F(P) s/n 1208-109 had a camera installation! If you can help with all, or any, of the following, I'll be most grateful: 1. When was it installed? 2. What STC was used (or Factory Drawing)? 3. What Make & Model Camera was it? I didn't find anything on this in Factory records (Warranty File) or the pa pers filed at the FAA. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: N14AV history FYI, anyone looking for a factory camera port, gary@ commander aero has the one we removed from 2001M. mason From: barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.ukTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubjec t: Commander-List: N14AV historyDate: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:40:01 +0100 Hi David, An .xls file is attached, showing the history of s/n 914-22. The data has been gleaned from paperwork filed at the FAA and factory recor ds held by Twin Commander. If there's anything, anything at all, that you can add, or correct, then pl ease do let me know. One question, when the RC-10 camera was installed, was it accomplished unde r an STC? I presume it wasn't quoted on the Form 337. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: David Owens Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Fwd: El Sid Interior Sooooo Cool... I dont have any info in that area, other than the person we bought it from that did not make it after an accident in a 337... (his came ra operator did make it). Before that I believe 14av belonged to the state of N. Carolina... Nothing before that. Thank you in advance for some really cool info. (We do have all the books, but thats allot of reading, and wadi ng through) David OwensAerial ViewpointN14AVAC-500A-Colemill href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Deneal Schilmeister" <deneals(at)deneals.com>
Subject: Call to check
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Sir Barry: (and anyone else) Speaking of Maytag, if anyone has a picture of the Commander painted in National Airlines livery that used to park at the National hangar at MIA, I'd love to have a jpg of it. Or for that matter, pictures of the Eastern Airlines commanders that were based at MIA in the 1970s. Thanks. ___________________________ Deneal Schilmeister, ATP LearJet St. Louis - Cincinnati 1997 SL500 http://deneals.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:11 PM Subject: Commander-List: Call to check Hi, If Tom Kinnaird or David Maytag are still monitoring the 'chatlist', please email me, as I've some old photos for you to check for me. Thanks! Best Regards, Barry Collman ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Call to check
Date: Jun 14, 2007
If You get the Eastern Commanders, I would like to have a picture. Flew them about 45 years ago. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Deneal Schilmeister To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:23 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Call to check Sir Barry: (and anyone else) Speaking of Maytag, if anyone has a picture of the Commander painted in National Airlines livery that used to park at the National hangar at MIA, I'd love to have a jpg of it. Or for that matter, pictures of the Eastern Airlines commanders that were based at MIA in the 1970s. Thanks. ___________________________ Deneal Schilmeister, ATP LearJet St. Louis - Cincinnati 1997 SL500 http://deneals.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Google Commander Flight
Date: Jun 14, 2007
Steve- Remind us slower/newer guys of your website URL so that we can find it? Robert Randazzo _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at Col-East Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:53 Subject: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight Folks, As we fly our photo survey missions, our navigation software records our 3D position. We had an interesting flight the other day, and for the first time we dumped the 'breadcrumbs' of our flight into Google Earth. I know other folks here have used Google to view things, so I thought I would post a file to our website. It's pretty small. On our 'Downloads Page' is a file, "New York Flight". You can right-click, save and unzip the file, then double-click the file if you have Google Earth. The job was down 1/2 mile south of JFK at 1200', though we never made it. It was the day the whole system went down (last Friday, I think). You intercept the Hudson River and fly southbound on the west side. I hit the river at about West Point and dropped to 1500'. Following the river down, NY wanted me to cross the George Washington, hang a left over Central Park, a right down the East River, and then turn 130(?) after the Williamburg Bridge. Just shy of the bridge I was told the system was down, JFK couldn't take me, what do you want to do? Took a second to figure that out and told LaGuardia however they got me eastbound to Hyannis (out on Cape Cod) was fine with me. Got told to do a 180, fly up the eastern edge of the East River until the tip of Roosevelt Island. Then hang a right and head direct for the Laguardia Tower cab, and then the south stanchion of the Throgs Neck Bridge. I was awful worried about my geography holding up at that point, but I did ok. (Went into the City a lot as a kid.) Out around Newport RI we spotted a sailboat race starting, and saw some beautiful boats heeled hard over, so I had to drop down and have Shaun fire the camera. You can see the decent in the flight path. Hit our job on the Cape, figured we'd head back for New York City and try our luck again, but passing Islip we gave up and shut the nav system down. Try 'tipping' the view at a pretty good angle to view it, and then drag along and follow. You can also run an animation on the track........ Hoping some might get a kick out of this...... Steve __________ NOD32 2330 (20070615) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Google Commander Flight
Date: Jun 15, 2007
I don't see a link. bilbo _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at Col-East Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 2:53 PM Subject: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight Folks, As we fly our photo survey missions, our navigation software records our 3D position. We had an interesting flight the other day, and for the first time we dumped the 'breadcrumbs' of our flight into Google Earth. I know other folks here have used Google to view things, so I thought I would post a file to our website. It's pretty small. On our 'Downloads Page' is a file, "New York Flight". You can right-click, save and unzip the file, then double-click the file if you have Google Earth. The job was down 1/2 mile south of JFK at 1200', though we never made it. It was the day the whole system went down (last Friday, I think). You intercept the Hudson River and fly southbound on the west side. I hit the river at about West Point and dropped to 1500'. Following the river down, NY wanted me to cross the George Washington, hang a left over Central Park, a right down the East River, and then turn 130(?) after the Williamburg Bridge. Just shy of the bridge I was told the system was down, JFK couldn't take me, what do you want to do? Took a second to figure that out and told LaGuardia however they got me eastbound to Hyannis (out on Cape Cod) was fine with me. Got told to do a 180, fly up the eastern edge of the East River until the tip of Roosevelt Island. Then hang a right and head direct for the Laguardia Tower cab, and then the south stanchion of the Throgs Neck Bridge. I was awful worried about my geography holding up at that point, but I did ok. (Went into the City a lot as a kid.) Out around Newport RI we spotted a sailboat race starting, and saw some beautiful boats heeled hard over, so I had to drop down and have Shaun fire the camera. You can see the decent in the flight path. Hit our job on the Cape, figured we'd head back for New York City and try our luck again, but passing Islip we gave up and shut the nav system down. Try 'tipping' the view at a pretty good angle to view it, and then drag along and follow. You can also run an animation on the track........ Hoping some might get a kick out of this...... Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steven" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Google Commander Flight
Date: Jun 15, 2007
Oh yeah, the link...... http://www.col-east.com/download.php ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert S. Randazzo To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 12:15 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight Steve- Remind us slower/newer guys of your website URL so that we can find it? Robert Randazzo ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at Col-East Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:53 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight Folks, As we fly our photo survey missions, our navigation software records our 3D position. We had an interesting flight the other day, and for the first time we dumped the 'breadcrumbs' of our flight into Google Earth. I know other folks here have used Google to view things, so I thought I would post a file to our website. It's pretty small. On our 'Downloads Page' is a file, "New York Flight". You can right-click, save and unzip the file, then double-click the file if you have Google Earth. The job was down 1/2 mile south of JFK at 1200', though we never made it. It was the day the whole system went down (last Friday, I think). You intercept the Hudson River and fly southbound on the west side. I hit the river at about West Point and dropped to 1500'. Following the river down, NY wanted me to cross the George Washington, hang a left over Central Park, a right down the East River, and then turn 130(?) after the Williamburg Bridge. Just shy of the bridge I was told the system was down, JFK couldn't take me, what do you want to do? Took a second to figure that out and told LaGuardia however they got me eastbound to Hyannis (out on Cape Cod) was fine with me. Got told to do a 180, fly up the eastern edge of the East River until the tip of Roosevelt Island. Then hang a right and head direct for the Laguardia Tower cab, and then the south stanchion of the Throgs Neck Bridge. I was awful worried about my geography holding up at that point, but I did ok. (Went into the City a lot as a kid.) Out around Newport RI we spotted a sailboat race starting, and saw some beautiful boats heeled hard over, so I had to drop down and have Shaun fire the camera. You can see the decent in the flight path. Hit our job on the Cape, figured we'd head back for New York City and try our luck again, but passing Islip we gave up and shut the nav system down. Try 'tipping' the view at a pretty good angle to view it, and then drag along and follow. You can also run an animation on the track........ Hoping some might get a kick out of this...... Steve href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2330 (20070615) Information __________ --> http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Google Commander Flight
Date: Jun 15, 2007
Awesome, Steve. Thanks _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 3:49 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight Oh yeah, the link...... http://www.col-east.com/download.php ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert S. Randazzo <mailto:rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 12:15 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight Steve- Remind us slower/newer guys of your website URL so that we can find it? Robert Randazzo _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at Col-East Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:53 Subject: Commander-List: Google Commander Flight Folks, As we fly our photo survey missions, our navigation software records our 3D position. We had an interesting flight the other day, and for the first time we dumped the 'breadcrumbs' of our flight into Google Earth. I know other folks here have used Google to view things, so I thought I would post a file to our website. It's pretty small. On our 'Downloads Page' is a file, "New York Flight". You can right-click, save and unzip the file, then double-click the file if you have Google Earth. The job was down 1/2 mile south of JFK at 1200', though we never made it. It was the day the whole system went down (last Friday, I think). You intercept the Hudson River and fly southbound on the west side. I hit the river at about West Point and dropped to 1500'. Following the river down, NY wanted me to cross the George Washington, hang a left over Central Park, a right down the East River, and then turn 130(?) after the Williamburg Bridge. Just shy of the bridge I was told the system was down, JFK couldn't take me, what do you want to do? Took a second to figure that out and told LaGuardia however they got me eastbound to Hyannis (out on Cape Cod) was fine with me. Got told to do a 180, fly up the eastern edge of the East River until the tip of Roosevelt Island. Then hang a right and head direct for the Laguardia Tower cab, and then the south stanchion of the Throgs Neck Bridge. I was awful worried about my geography holding up at that point, but I did ok. (Went into the City a lot as a kid.) Out around Newport RI we spotted a sailboat race starting, and saw some beautiful boats heeled hard over, so I had to drop down and have Shaun fire the camera. You can see the decent in the flight path. Hit our job on the Cape, figured we'd head back for New York City and try our luck again, but passing Islip we gave up and shut the nav system down. Try 'tipping' the view at a pretty good angle to view it, and then drag along and follow. You can also run an animation on the track........ Hoping some might get a kick out of this...... Steve href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com __________ NOD32 2330 (20070615) Information __________ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Eatern Airlines
Date: Jun 15, 2007
Hi JimBob, Remember we had lunch with one of your pals from the airport who used to fly the 500B's with Eastern Airlines? Don Girod used to fly them too and he was asking the name of your pal. If you let me know, I'll pass it on. Did he run a Type Group too? If not, what are the two Type Groups run by guys at Grove? I think I remember one was the Navion Society. Was the other one the Globe Swift? Sincere Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 17, 2007
Subject: Re: Eatern Airlines
In a message dated 6/15/2007 1:41:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: I think I remember one was the Navion Society. Was the other one the Globe Swift? Actualy no, he is a Bonanaza awner. His name is Dennis Garnan. hope all is well!! jb ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Eatern Airlines
Date: Jun 17, 2007
Yes, I remember Dennis, he used to jump seat a lot on my flights when I was flying the Portland, Seattle, Atlanta flights L-1011 and A-300's about 25 years ago. Thanks, Don ----- Original Message ----- From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Eatern Airlines In a message dated 6/15/2007 1:41:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: I think I remember one was the Navion Society. Was the other one the Globe Swift? Actualy no, he is a Bonanaza awner. His name is Dennis Garnan. hope all is well!! jb ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 6/17/2007 8:23 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 17, 2007
Subject: Commander to Hawaii
Gentlemen, A colleague of mine sent me this link; he was alarmed that this flight took off and returned (rather early in the trip) twice in a row. Now I am concerned, as well. Anyone know anything about this airplane and the lad flying it? The word on the street is that the fellow serving as the ferry pilot has 800 total time and 23 hours multiengine time. Commander time? Well, he has a few hours now ... _http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7846C_ (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7846C) Wing Commander Gordon ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Commander to Hawaii
Date: Jun 17, 2007
According to AirNav, it is 2093 Nautical from Khwd to Phnl. I hope he had 430 gallons of fuel on board that would be 2924 lbs in fuel alone. What is the fuel burn of a 500 at economy cruse? I wonder if in his vast experience of 23 hours had he actually flown a economy cruse? Just some questions. Tylor Hall On Jun 17, 2007, at 6:44 PM, CloudCraft(at)aol.com wrote: > Gentlemen, > > A colleague of mine sent me this link; he was alarmed that this > flight took off and returned (rather early in the trip) twice in a > row. > > Now I am concerned, as well. > > Anyone know anything about this airplane and the lad flying it? > The word on the street is that the fellow serving as the ferry > pilot has 800 total time and 23 hours multiengine time. > > Commander time? Well, he has a few hours now ... > > http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7846C > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > See what's free at AOL.com. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Deneal Schilmeister" <deneals(at)deneals.com>
Subject: Eastern Airlines
Date: Jun 17, 2007
Don: Did you know Dave Whitman or Curt Ross? I think they were training pilots. Curt was one of those hired as EAL spiraled into the ground in the late 80s. ___________________________ Deneal Schilmeister St. Louis - Cincinnati 1997 SL500 http://homepage.mac.com/deneals/SL500.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Girod Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Eatern Airlines Yes, I remember Dennis, he used to jump seat a lot on my flights when I was flying the Portland, Seattle, Atlanta flights L-1011 and A-300's about 25 years ago. Thanks, Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Wright" <blbarron(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Lycoming GO480 RPM and Oil Pressure Problem
Date: Jun 17, 2007
To All, I recently experienced an inadvertent change in RPM on takeoff that caused my gearbox to chatter. I was at full throttle with prop set at high RPM and about 1500 feet down the runway when it happened. To late to abort so I adjusted the prop to a lower RPM to stop the chatter and to make the engine drive the prop again. With enough altitude to go around and land, I put the nose down and tried to adjust the prop again and it started to chatter again. After the adjustment, it stopped. After landing and coming to a complete stop, I ran it up to 3200 RPM and the gearbox started to chatter and the RPM dropped to about 2900 RPM. I shut it down and removed the prop governor and sent it for overhaul. After overhaul and reinstallation I ran it up to 3200 RPM and again it dropped by itself to about 2900 RPM. The only other thing different in the performance of the airplane recently is that the oil pressure seems to be getting lower. It has run at 60 PSI in cruise for the past 15 years and now with the oil temp at 187 degrees F the oil pressure is showing about 55 PSI. At 3200 RPM the oil pressure is at 67 PSI which should be more than enough pressure to run the prop, but the RPM keeps dropping without me making any adjustment. The prop is a Hartzell HC-A3MVF-2A and it was disassembled, inspected, serviced and reassembled by a prop shop in November of 04. Has anyone else had a similar experience with RPM or oil pressure on this type of engine? The engine has 1200 hours SMOH. Any comments would be appreciated. Paul W ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Eastern Airlines
Date: Jun 17, 2007
Deneal; The names don't ring a bell as I was in ATL not MIA. Also in the time frame you mention, I was probably walking a picket line, not talking to Frank and Frank and their associates. Its a shame we couldn't have stopped it then, maybe could have also saved the retirements of Delta, United, U.S. Air and Northwest. Maybe the hand writing was already on the wall and we couldn't read it, in hind sight. Sure did ruin a lot of good careers. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Deneal Schilmeister To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 11:05 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Eastern Airlines Don: Did you know Dave Whitman or Curt Ross? I think they were training pilots. Curt was one of those hired as EAL spiraled into the ground in the late 80s. ___________________________ Deneal Schilmeister St. Louis - Cincinnati 1997 SL500 http://homepage.mac.com/deneals/SL500.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Girod Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 7:41 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Eatern Airlines Yes, I remember Dennis, he used to jump seat a lot on my flights when I was flying the Portland, Seattle, Atlanta flights L-1011 and A-300's about 25 years ago. Thanks, Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 6/17/2007 8:23 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "alh1(at)juno.com" <alh1(at)juno.com>
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Subject: Re: Commander to Hawaii
the n number comes back with 1963 as year built and 0-540 lycomings as series of engines. straight 500's were only made in 1958 and 1959. barry will know, but my guess is N7846c is a 500B with I0-540. fuel burn for a straight 500 at about 7500 feet at peak egt would be about 24 gph. i know i will hear from guys that can get 20 gph, but they burn valves an it is cheaper to burn fuel. the average useful load on a 500 is about 1750 pounds. it holds 156 gallons so you need an extra tank. it will do it if both engines are running. the call sign would become N7846C "heavy", but if it lifts off, both engines keep running, it is hawaii, here we come. did i mention about 8000 feet on the runway length to make sure you get airborne with that fuel. if one engine quits on takeoff, you will have to land straight ahead with the throttles back and you need to make sure there are no tall buildings the first five or ten miles (three story) because the climb rate goes way down. as an aside, if the ferry pilot has 23 hours, even if all is a commander, he will have his hands full. from the flight track, he appears to be doing a good job. al hoffman _____________________________________________________________ Click here for free information on consolidating your debt. http://track.juno.com/s/lc?u=http://tagline.untd.us/fc/CAaCX09tbf5xRN5IG3KYqOtUcpXjiXfE/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Subject: Commander to Hawaii
Good Morning Al, It is nice to hear such a knowledgeable response about the young man's trip. I am sure all will be fine. One thing bothers me though. You have stated a suggestion that running at peak EGT will give a total burn of 24 GPH. I am not familiar with the engine involved, but that does seem like a reasonable burn for the power involved. Since it is a non supercharged engine, chances are that it would be developing well under sixty-five percent power at that altitude. Still, all is well. However, you follow that with an ancient Old Wives Tale by implying that operating leaner than that will burn valves. Since the highest temperature in the cylinder head will be obtained about forty or fifty degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT, and, by definition, the Exhaust Gas Temperature will be lower when running more lean than Peak Exhaust Gas Temperature, why would any valve burning occur? Twenty gallons per hour, ten gallons per engine, will definitely provide less power to the airframe and there is no advantage in economy by operating more than about twenty lean of peak EGT at the cylinder pressures involved, but there is absolutely nothing involved that would cause a valve to be burned. Valves get burned by encountering gasses that are above their design limits. That can only happen when high temperatures and insufficient cooling is present. The most likely time for valve burning to occur is at high power and mixtures that are rich of peak EGT but not rich enough to provide proper cooling of the engine. The more likely culprit is a high power climb with a mixture that is not rich enough. Fifty to one hundred degrees rich of peak is about the worst place any engine can be operated at any power above sixty-five percent. Lycoming does present the number of seventy-five percent as being critical while Continental likes to use the number sixty-five as the magic number, but both manufacturers will agree that cruise mixtures leaner than peak EGT at sixty-five percent power are unlikely to hurt any engine that is in conformance with it's type certificate. If it is full of crud from running too rich, something may stop a valve from closing. That could cause a valve to be burned. However, running any engine at sixty-five percent power and a mixture that is leaner than that which will provide peak EGT can do nothing other than make a valve less likely to be burned. Comments encouraged! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 6/18/2007 4:49:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alh1(at)juno.com writes: fuel burn for a straight 500 at about 7500 feet at peak egt would be about 24 gph. i know i will hear from guys that can get 20 gph, but they burn valves an it is cheaper to burn fuel. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander to Hawaii
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Hi All, N7846C is a straight Model 500, s/n 724. As far as I know, it still has the original Lycoming O-540-A2B engines. It was actually first Certificated in April 1959. The reference to 1963 is because that's when it was imported back to the USA after having been in Mexico for a few years. I thought the 'N' number rang a bell. Those who attended the Fly-In at Hillsboro may remember that Ben Pfaff flew it in. The current owner, as far as I'm aware is Dick B Robbins, of Henderson, Nevada. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: <alh1(at)juno.com> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 10:46 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii | | the n number comes back with 1963 as year built and 0-540 | lycomings as series of engines. straight 500's were only made in 1958 | and 1959. barry will know, but my guess is N7846c is a 500B with I0-540. | | fuel burn for a straight 500 at about 7500 feet at peak egt would be | about 24 gph. i know i will hear from guys that can get 20 gph, but | they burn valves an it is cheaper to burn fuel. the average useful | load on a 500 is about 1750 pounds. it holds 156 gallons so you need | an extra tank. it will do it if both engines are running. the call | sign would become N7846C "heavy", but if it lifts off, both engines | keep running, it is hawaii, here we come. did i mention about 8000 feet | on the runway length to make sure you get airborne with that fuel. if | one engine quits on takeoff, you will have to land straight ahead with | the throttles back and you need to make sure there are no tall | buildings the first five or ten miles (three story) because the climb | rate goes way down. | | as an aside, if the ferry pilot has 23 hours, even if all is a | commander, he will have his hands full. from the flight track, he | appears to be doing a good job. al hoffman | | _____________________________________________________________ | Click here for free information on consolidating your debt. | http://track.juno.com/s/lc?u=http://tagline.untd.us/fc/CAaCX09tbf5xRN5IG3KYqOtUcpXjiXfE/ | | | | | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Commander to Hawaii
Date: Jun 18, 2007
My boss takes great pleasure in running (what he calls!) 55% lean of peak, which I kid him about all the time. (I'm guessing it works out to be even less.) About 22" and 2150. With GAMI injectors we have fuel burn down to 21.5 GPH, total at about 156 knots. The left engine went 1800 hours on the original chrome(!) cylinders, and no oil consumption. What eventually had us remove that engine was that at TDC, the choke of the cylinder had worn to where there was no compression, but only at immediate TDC. It was kind of weird. There was no oil consumption, and lots of compression off of TDC. There was a debate between mechanics, and one would have left us to run the thing. Still ran like a watch. It appears the chrome simply wore out of the choke. Our right engine is over 1900 hrs on the original Nikasil jugs, run lean of peak (1400 hour engine). We finally have a weak cylinder at 78/80 (or 77, I forget). The rest are 80/80, cold. Still ticking...... (Oil analysis, cutting filters apart, etc. We're not being dumb.) Overhaul might come when the engine starts leaking too much . Or it grenades tommorow (who knows!). I tend to run a little harder than the boss at 22 squared, or 23/2200 LOP. I burn a little more gas too, something like 23 GPH, but I'm younger and more impatient. Our cylinders are never over 400 degrees. In cruise we're anywhere from 275 to 375. 325 to 365 the norm. (have to watch number 1 on departure.) I launch with the EGT set with port side number 1 CHT, and starboard number 5 EGT. I can't run LOP if I lose a mag. You need good ignition, (I'm assuming because of the slower flame front propogation). I've had the fuel flow split between sides when I do. It's pretty dramatic when you do that looking at the fuel flow spread between engines. Maybe(?) if you persisted in running an engine that was misfiring it would be possible. It runs like crap, but maybe possible. But as soon as you lose a mag, or even a plug, you can see the EGT shoot up. You can't miss it. You really need to sit in an airplane and be on the rich side, and watch as you pull back the red handles. CHT's and EGT's rise to peak, and then fall dramatically on the back side. On the 500B we can tell how well we did by the exhaust staining of the last flight. Once set up, running lean is no more complicated than running rich. An EGT is essential, not even to set flow once the engine has been set up, but as a diagnostic tool. We lost the EGT the other day, and when I launched I really missed it, but knew I was running properly on the lean side. This is an elegant, efficient, cool, and clean way of running engines. Lycoming is full of hooey. The above is only our opinion. Your mileage may vary. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: <alh1(at)juno.com> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 5:46 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii > > the n number comes back with 1963 as year built and 0-540 > lycomings as series of engines. straight 500's were only made in 1958 > and 1959. barry will know, but my guess is N7846c is a 500B with I0-540. > > fuel burn for a straight 500 at about 7500 feet at peak egt would be > about 24 gph. i know i will hear from guys that can get 20 gph, but > they burn valves an it is cheaper to burn fuel. the average useful > load on a 500 is about 1750 pounds. it holds 156 gallons so you need > an extra tank. it will do it if both engines are running. the call > sign would become N7846C "heavy", but if it lifts off, both engines > keep running, it is hawaii, here we come. did i mention about 8000 feet > on the runway length to make sure you get airborne with that fuel. if > one engine quits on takeoff, you will have to land straight ahead with > the throttles back and you need to make sure there are no tall > buildings the first five or ten miles (three story) because the climb > rate goes way down. > > as an aside, if the ferry pilot has 23 hours, even if all is a > commander, he will have his hands full. from the flight track, he > appears to be doing a good job. al hoffman > > _____________________________________________________________ > Click here for free information on consolidating your debt. > http://track.juno.com/s/lc?u=http://tagline.untd.us/fc/CAaCX09tbf5xRN5IG3KYqOtUcpXjiXfE/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DP" <28bravo(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Commander to Hawaii
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Well put Old Bob! a.. In all of the many hours of operating my 500B the red knobs were always agressively moved aftward from the moment of startup to shutdown. There is no way that sufficient heat can be produced at a 65% power setting to damage anything. I consistently see 24 GPH block fuel burns. The sweet spot is 2300 rpm/22inches @ 7-10K. 175 KTS TAS all day long. The exhaust color is a light dove gray. Always run full rich in the climb and your engines will be happy. Dennis N6273X ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 3:59 AM Subject: Lean Of Peak EGT?? Was: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii Good Morning Al, It is nice to hear such a knowledgeable response about the young man's trip. I am sure all will be fine. One thing bothers me though. You have stated a suggestion that running at peak EGT will give a total burn of 24 GPH. I am not familiar with the engine involved, but that does seem like a reasonable burn for the power involved. Since it is a non supercharged engine, chances are that it would be developing well under sixty-five percent power at that altitude. Still, all is well. However, you follow that with an ancient Old Wives Tale by implying that operating leaner than that will burn valves. Since the highest temperature in the cylinder head will be obtained about forty or fifty degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT, and, by definition, the Exhaust Gas Temperature will be lower when running more lean than Peak Exhaust Gas Temperature, why would any valve burning occur? Twenty gallons per hour, ten gallons per engine, will definitely provide less power to the airframe and there is no advantage in economy by operating more than about twenty lean of peak EGT at the cylinder pressures involved, but there is absolutely nothing involved that would cause a valve to be burned. Valves get burned by encountering gasses that are above their design limits. That can only happen when high temperatures and insufficient cooling is present. The most likely time for valve burning to occur is at high power and mixtures that are rich of peak EGT but not rich enough to provide proper cooling of the engine. The more likely culprit is a high power climb with a mixture that is not rich enough. Fifty to one hundred degrees rich of peak is about the worst place any engine can be operated at any power above sixty-five percent. Lycoming does present the number of seventy-five percent as being critical while Continental likes to use the number sixty-five as the magic number, but both manufacturers will agree that cruise mixtures leaner than peak EGT at sixty-five percent power are unlikely to hurt any engine that is in conformance with it's type certificate. If it is full of crud from running too rich, something may stop a valve from closing. That could cause a valve to be burned. However, running any engine at sixty-five percent power and a mixture that is leaner than that which will provide peak EGT can do nothing other than make a valve less likely to be burned. Comments encouraged! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 6/18/2007 4:49:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alh1(at)juno.com writes: fuel burn for a straight 500 at about 7500 feet at peak egt would be about 24 gph. i know i will hear from guys that can get 20 gph, but they burn valves an it is cheaper to burn fuel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Commander to Hawaii
Date: Jun 18, 2007
N7846C is indeed Dick Robbins' airplane, he's in the Phillippines, which is where the aircraft is bound for. I flew it a bit when Morris finished the (extensive) annual. It flew like a dream, and was very east to manage. A little underpowered & light compared to my 500B, but still a nice airplane...and it will do fine in the Phillippines since it has a Mogas STC. /John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 4:23 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii > <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> > > Hi All, > > N7846C is a straight Model 500, s/n 724. > As far as I know, it still has the original Lycoming O-540-A2B engines. It > was > actually first Certificated in April 1959. > The reference to 1963 is because that's when it was imported back to the > USA > after having been in Mexico for a few years. > > I thought the 'N' number rang a bell. Those who attended the Fly-In at > Hillsboro > may remember that Ben Pfaff flew it in. > > The current owner, as far as I'm aware is Dick B Robbins, of Henderson, > Nevada. > > Best Regards, > Barry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <alh1(at)juno.com> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii > > > | > | the n number comes back with 1963 as year built and 0-540 > | lycomings as series of engines. straight 500's were only made in 1958 > | and 1959. barry will know, but my guess is N7846c is a 500B with > I0-540. > | > | fuel burn for a straight 500 at about 7500 feet at peak egt would be > | about 24 gph. i know i will hear from guys that can get 20 gph, but > | they burn valves an it is cheaper to burn fuel. the average useful > | load on a 500 is about 1750 pounds. it holds 156 gallons so you need > | an extra tank. it will do it if both engines are running. the call > | sign would become N7846C "heavy", but if it lifts off, both engines > | keep running, it is hawaii, here we come. did i mention about 8000 feet > | on the runway length to make sure you get airborne with that fuel. if > | one engine quits on takeoff, you will have to land straight ahead with > | the throttles back and you need to make sure there are no tall > | buildings the first five or ten miles (three story) because the climb > | rate goes way down. > | > | as an aside, if the ferry pilot has 23 hours, even if all is a > | commander, he will have his hands full. from the flight track, he > | appears to be doing a good job. al hoffman > | > | _____________________________________________________________ > | Click here for free information on consolidating your debt. > | > http://track.juno.com/s/lc?u=http://tagline.untd.us/fc/CAaCX09tbf5xRN5IG3KYqOtUcpXjiXfE/ > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > > > __________ NOD32 2336 (20070618) Information __________ > > > __________ NOD32 2336 (20070618) Information __________ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Subject: MoGas STC & LOP
In a message dated 18-Jun-07 09:03:21 Pacific Daylight Time, john(at)vormbaum.com writes: ...and it will do fine in the Phillippines since it has a Mogas STC. Hi John V, and everyone, I'm interested in the MoGas STC you mentioned. At one of the early Twin Commander Flight Group Fly-Ins (San Antonio circa 1997) Lycoming had a rep there who said none of the Lycoming engines were allowed to run MoGas due to the high chlorine content of MoGas. If there is now a MoGas STC for the AC-500, that would be a complete turn-around. If they've done a 180, that's fine ... and I'd be (happily) surprised. And speaking of Lycoming, somewhere I have a graph that shows a dramatic drop in cylinder head temperatures running LOP and this chart is for the IGSO-540. If I can find the document, I'll scan and post. Wing Commander Gordon ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Carb heat cables
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Mat let's get the parts that did't use returned to me. Please figure out what you uses and send me a checl Thanks Harry 321 267-3141 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Carb heat cables > > > Mat I Have the cable: $100.00 > New Rotor 100.00 > New Caliper 250.00 > Pucks 6 @ 40.00 = 240.00 > 20 Drive Keys & Bolts 160.00 > Freight included (Ground) > Pay after you received > > Harry > 321 267-3141 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matthew J. Hawkins" <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:55 AM > Subject: Commander-List: Carb heat cables > > >> >> >> All- >> >> Going through annual on N2760B. Looking for two carb heat cables - the >> ~3' ones under that dash between the pull knob and the rest of the >> rigging. Anyone have a source for these? >> >> Also - looks like I might have to do a Cleveland brake conversion. Any >> pointers? She's a 560A. >> >> Thanks, >> Matt >> >> ******************** >> Matthew Hawkins >> Director, Marine Ops >> R/V HUGH R. SHARP >> 302-645-4341 >> FAX: 302-645-4006 >> hawkins(at)udel.edu >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander to Hawaii
Date: Jun 18, 2007
I know the LOP debate, and some folks' experience with engines holding to TBO while running LOP, has changed many, including my, perception. I ran my 500 ROP for years and have never had any problems with the engines. I burned 22 gph, exactly twice as much as my Twin Comanche, so I wonder whether my EGT was not calibrated correctly. If I remember correctly, the EGT operated only off the #1 cylinder? I don't know. Perhaps the other cylinders were actually running LOP and held up quite fine. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DP Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Lean Of Peak EGT?? Was: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii Well put Old Bob! * In all of the many hours of operating my 500B the red knobs were always agressively moved aftward from the moment of startup to shutdown. There is no way that sufficient heat can be produced at a 65% power setting to damage anything. I consistently see 24 GPH block fuel burns. The sweet spot is 2300 rpm/22inches @ 7-10K. 175 KTS TAS all day long. The exhaust color is a light dove gray. Always run full rich in the climb and your engines will be happy. Dennis N6273X ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 3:59 AM Subject: Lean Of Peak EGT?? Was: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii Good Morning Al, It is nice to hear such a knowledgeable response about the young man's trip. I am sure all will be fine. One thing bothers me though. You have stated a suggestion that running at peak EGT will give a total burn of 24 GPH. I am not familiar with the engine involved, but that does seem like a reasonable burn for the power involved. Since it is a non supercharged engine, chances are that it would be developing well under sixty-five percent power at that altitude. Still, all is well. However, you follow that with an ancient Old Wives Tale by implying that operating leaner than that will burn valves. Since the highest temperature in the cylinder head will be obtained about forty or fifty degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT, and, by definition, the Exhaust Gas Temperature will be lower when running more lean than Peak Exhaust Gas Temperature, why would any valve burning occur? Twenty gallons per hour, ten gallons per engine, will definitely provide less power to the airframe and there is no advantage in economy by operating more than about twenty lean of peak EGT at the cylinder pressures involved, but there is absolutely nothing involved that would cause a valve to be burned. Valves get burned by encountering gasses that are above their design limits. That can only happen when high temperatures and insufficient cooling is present. The most likely time for valve burning to occur is at high power and mixtures that are rich of peak EGT but not rich enough to provide proper cooling of the engine. The more likely culprit is a high power climb with a mixture that is not rich enough. Fifty to one hundred degrees rich of peak is about the worst place any engine can be operated at any power above sixty-five percent. Lycoming does present the number of seventy-five percent as being critical while Continental likes to use the number sixty-five as the magic number, but both manufacturers will agree that cruise mixtures leaner than peak EGT at sixty-five percent power are unlikely to hurt any engine that is in conformance with it's type certificate. If it is full of crud from running too rich, something may stop a valve from closing. That could cause a valve to be burned. However, running any engine at sixty-five percent power and a mixture that is leaner than that which will provide peak EGT can do nothing other than make a valve less likely to be burned. Comments encouraged! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 6/18/2007 4:49:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alh1(at)juno.com writes: fuel burn for a straight 500 at about 7500 feet at peak egt would be about 24 gph. i know i will hear from guys that can get 20 gph, but they burn valves an it is cheaper to burn fuel. _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "alh1(at)juno.com" <alh1(at)juno.com>
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Subject: hawaii
i do not have flight track, does anyone know if N7846C made it to hnl? al hoffman _____________________________________________________________ Looking for business phone systems? Click here to reduce your phone bills by up to 50%. http://track.juno.com/s/lc?u=http://tagline.untd.us/fc/CAaCX096rak3qsOSMBQZrXF5HkqWqplV/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2007
From: BertBerry1 <bertberry1(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Ben Whitfield
This may help you find N8111G and CF-LBD Name : WHITFIELD, BENJAMIN JAMES PATON Airman's Address : 12 ARDAVEN PL LONDON ONTARIO, N6C 1H5, CANADA FAA Region : Northwest/Mountain Airman Certificates : Private Pilot (foreign based) Airplane Single and Multi Engine Land ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2007
From: BertBerry1 <bertberry1(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: hawaii
According to Flight Aware, it was diverted. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7846C In a message dated 06/18/07 13:44:44 Central Daylight Time, alh1(at)juno.com writes: N7846C ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ben Whitfield
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Interesting! So now we've got a Ben Whitfield and a Ben Widtfield, the latter being President of Atlas Aircraft. Obviously two separate guys. Thanks Bert! ----- Original Message ----- From: BertBerry1 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Ben Whitfield This may help you find N8111G and CF-LBD Name : WHITFIELD, BENJAMIN JAMES PATON Airman's Address : 12 ARDAVEN PL LONDON ONTARIO, N6C 1H5, CANADA FAA Region : Northwest/Mountain Airman Certificates : Private Pilot (foreign based) Airplane Single and Multi Engine Land ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: MoGas STC & LOP
From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
Date: Jun 18, 2007
ARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH! LOP The purpose of LOP operations is to decrease wear and tear on the engine meaning CHT and intracylinder pressures. The purpose is not to save $ by reducing fuel flow. It will take 3 years of fuels savings to return the investment in monitoring equipment. I have run a GTSIO 520K and J LOP for hundreds of hours with no valve or cylinder problems and an IO 540 for close to a thousand LOP hrs with no issues. When LOP_CHTs are less, peak intracylinder pressures are less and fuel consumption is down. These are demonstrable facts not hearsay. It is no longer true as espoused in the old wives tales that "fuel is a cheap coolant" There is no reason you cannot go beyond TBO running LOP. Now the key to safe effective LOP ops is doing it correctly. 1 You need balanced injectors. They don't have to be GAMI you can do it yourself with quarter sizes. All cylinders need to hit peak EGT near simultaneously. 2. You need to temp monitor all cylinders simultaneousl yes you need an engine monitor. You also need a fuel flow guage that is accurate. 3. You need to quickly establish your numbers and not spend a lot of time leaning through the peak. You need to establish fuel flows for various power settings and altitudes. ARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH! MOGAS Lycoming, I doubt, will ever agree MoGas is Okay. If there is an STC it is not held by LYcoming and it is an STC for a specific engine-aircraft-year designation. The myths about MoGas are ....Too much Chlorine ....Too much Sulfur ....Alcohol in the fuel ....Not enough Octane ....Less BTUs than AVgas ....You need the lead for valve guide lubricant The chlorine and sulfur are non issues. Cessna suggest a pint of alcohol per xx gallons in the winter to prevent fuel line freezing. Alcohol can cause problems with some seals and some of the older fuel hoses but most of these are out of the system. Octane ratings only signify antiknock characteristics and have naught to do with energy levels. The lead is there for antiknock purposes. The problems with MoGas Lower vaporization pressure. It will vapor lock a lot easier than 100LL. Things that predispose to vapor lock are, heat. bends in the fuel line, high points in the fuel line, fuel lines going from smaller to larger. Thus the airframe plays a role in the STC process. To run MoGas you need a fuel line that is as straight as possible, well insulated, and preferably constantly is going up hill. It should remin the same size throughout or restrict to smaller sizes as it goes towards the engine. Lower compression engines do better than high compression. MoGas has regional additives for EPA temp and altitude differences. These additives are often seasonal and breakdown rather quickly (months) leaving that nasty residue you see on your mower and your home gas cans. This stuff tend to gunk up carburators and injectors. O 540s and IO 540s should run well on Mogas if there are no problems in the fuel distribution system and you keep the entire system clean. High performance turboed engines I am not so sure and probably would not try MoGas. Most MoGas Stcs are owned by Petersen Aviation http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/intro.html or EAA Experimental Aircraft Association. I do not know of an STC for an Aerocommander Twin. On Mo Gas however I will defer to the wisdom of our Bill Hamilton who I think discussed this issue at length long ago on the old forum. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119211#119211 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Subject: Re: Lycoming GO480 RPM and Oil Pressure Problem
In a message dated 6/17/2007 8:13:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, blbarron(at)bellsouth.net writes: Has anyone else had a similar experience with RPM or oil pressure on this type of engine? The engine has 1200 hours SMOH. The seals in the gearbox are probaly worn out allowing oil to bypas. With low oil pressuer the prop will attemt to feather, henc low RPM. Sorry for the bad news, but that is probaly it. jb ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YOURTCFG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Subject: Re: Eatern Airlines
In a message dated 6/17/2007 5:42:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dongirod(at)bellsouth.net writes: I was flying the Portland, Seattle, Atlanta flights L-1011 and A-300's about 25 years ago. Yep ,that would be him. jb ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2007
From: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Commander to Hawaii
Folks, Look up "Pelican's Perch", and find a raft of material supporting LOP operations for long engine life and maximum fuel/cost efficiency. A word of caution, theoretical and actual hottest cylinder are not necessarily the same, to get the best results you need a probe on each cylinder. The whole issue was explored at a Coroners Inquest here several years ago, "Aggressive Leaning" was a claim made for the cause of an engine failure. This was comprehensively demolished as a cause, Deakin at Pelican's Perch played a major roll. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ---------- At 03:52 AM 20/06/2007, you wrote: >I know the LOP debate, and some folks' experience with engines >holding to TBO while running LOP, has changed many, including my, >perception. I ran my 500 ROP for years and have never had any >problems with the engines. I burned 22 gph, exactly twice as much as >my Twin Comanche, so I wonder whether my EGT was not calibrated correctly. >If I remember correctly, the EGT operated only off the #1 cylinder? >I don't know. >Perhaps the other cylinders were actually running LOP and held up quite fine. > >Nico > > >---------- >From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DP >Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 8:45 AM >To: commander-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Lean Of Peak EGT?? Was: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii > >Well put Old Bob! > > * In all of the many hours of operating my 500B the red knobs > were always agressively moved aftward from the moment of startup to > shutdown. There is no way that sufficient heat can be produced at a > 65% power setting to damage anything. I consistently see 24 GPH > block fuel burns. The sweet spot is 2300 rpm/22inches @ 7-10K. 175 > KTS TAS all day long. The exhaust color is a light dove gray. > Always run full rich in the climb and your engines will be happy. > >Dennis N6273X >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:BobsV35B(at)aol.com>BobsV35B(at)aol.com >To: commander-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 3:59 AM >Subject: Lean Of Peak EGT?? Was: Commander-List: Commander to Hawaii > >Good Morning Al, > >It is nice to hear such a knowledgeable response about the young >man's trip. I am sure all will be fine. > >One thing bothers me though. You have stated a suggestion that >running at peak EGT will give a total burn of 24 GPH. I am not >familiar with the engine involved, but that does seem like a >reasonable burn for the power involved. Since it is a non >supercharged engine, chances are that it would be developing well >under sixty-five percent power at that altitude. Still, all is well. > >However, you follow that with an ancient Old Wives Tale by implying >that operating leaner than that will burn valves. > >Since the highest temperature in the cylinder head will be obtained >about forty or fifty degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT, and, >by definition, the Exhaust Gas Temperature will be lower when >running more lean than Peak Exhaust Gas Temperature, why would any >valve burning occur? > >Twenty gallons per hour, ten gallons per engine, will definitely >provide less power to the airframe and there is no advantage in >economy by operating more than about twenty lean of peak EGT at the >cylinder pressures involved, but there is absolutely nothing >involved that would cause a valve to be burned. > >Valves get burned by encountering gasses that are above their design >limits. That can only happen when high temperatures and insufficient >cooling is present. The most likely time for valve burning to occur >is at high power and mixtures that are rich of peak EGT but not rich >enough to provide proper cooling of the engine. The more likely >culprit is a high power climb with a mixture that is not rich >enough. Fifty to one hundred degrees rich of peak is about the worst >place any engine can be operated at any power above sixty-five percent. > >Lycoming does present the number of seventy-five percent as being >critical while Continental likes to use the number sixty-five as the >magic number, but both manufacturers will agree that cruise mixtures >leaner than peak EGT at sixty-five percent power are unlikely to >hurt any engine that is in conformance with it's type certificate. >If it is full of crud from running too rich, something may stop a >valve from closing. That could cause a valve to be burned. > >However, running any engine at sixty-five percent power and a >mixture that is leaner than that which will provide peak EGT can do >nothing other than make a valve less likely to be burned. > >Comments encouraged! > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob >AKA >Bob Siegfried >Ancient Aviator >Stearman N3977A >Brookeridge Air Park LL22 >Downers Grove, IL 60516 >630 985-8503 > >In a message dated 6/18/2007 4:49:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >alh1(at)juno.com writes: >fuel burn for a straight 500 at about 7500 feet at peak egt would be >about 24 gph. i know i will hear from guys that can get 20 gph, but >they burn valves an it is cheaper to burn fuel. > > >---------- >See what's free at <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>AOL.com. > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Wright" <blbarron(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Lycoming GO480 RPM and Oil Pressure Problem
Date: Jun 18, 2007
JB, Thanks for the bad news. It's better than not knowing. Paul _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of YOURTCFG(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Lycoming GO480 RPM and Oil Pressure Problem In a message dated 6/17/2007 8:13:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, blbarron(at)bellsouth.net writes: Has anyone else had a similar experience with RPM or oil pressure on this type of engine? The engine has 1200 hours SMOH. The seals in the gearbox are probaly worn out allowing oil to bypas. With low oil pressuer the prop will attemt to feather, henc low RPM. Sorry for the bad news, but that is probaly it. jb _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2007
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: commander radios
I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all the wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Increased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working fine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum powered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf 254 721 1450 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2007
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: commander radios
I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all the wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Increased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working fine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum powered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf 254 721 1450 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: commander radios
Date: Jun 18, 2007
Robert, What brand is the ADF and is the antenna good? Jim Addington (Denton, Texas) N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: commander radios I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all the wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Increased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working fine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum powered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf 254 721 1450 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2007
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: commander radios
I'll have to see what brand. the antenna was just a wire with a spring up to the tail. you can make that yourself real easy bobf On 6/18/07, Jim Addington wrote: > > Robert, What brand is the ADF and is the antenna good? > Jim Addington (Denton, Texas) > N444BD > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Robert Feldtman > *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2007 9:26 PM > *Subject:* Commander-List: commander radios > > I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all > the wires, actuators, control heads from the front > panel) out of my 500B. Increased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working fine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum powered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas > > bobf > > 254 721 1450 > > * href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 19, 2007
Subject: Re: commander radios
Good Morning bobf, Maybe I have missed something here, but an ADF generally has some sort of a loop antenna. Some are solid state and some are mechanical. Older units generally have a separate sense antenna while the newest ones tend to have the sense and loop antenna all in the same unit. The wire you describe sounds like a sense antenna. For the ADF to operate as a direction finding device, you need to have some sort of "loop" antenna. The wire would have worked just fine for the low frequency range stations! How old is that Commander? Any possibility whet you removed was simply a low frequency receiver? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 6/19/2007 5:49:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bobf(at)feldtman.com writes: I'll have to see what brand. the antenna was just a wire with a spring up to the tail. you can make that yourself real easy bobf ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: commander radios
Date: Jun 19, 2007
bf, do not need avionics but glad to know another commander driver in the n eighborhood. mason 2001M fort worth Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:48:36 -0500From: bobf(at)feldtman.comTo: commander-l ist(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Commander-List: commander radiosI'll have to see what brand. the antenna was just a wire with a spring up to the tail. y ou can make that yourself real easybobf On 6/18/07, Jim Addington wrote: Robert, What brand is the ADF and is the antenna good? Jim Addington (Denton, Texas) N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: commander radios I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all th e wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Inc reased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working f ine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum pow ered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf254 7 21 1450 href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com"> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: commander radios
Date: Jun 19, 2007
Thanks for checking, I have one of those I took off when I put the Collins 650A in. My ADF is a Yankee, it points when going north but won't point going south. For a good Southern boy this is disgraceful. Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:48 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: commander radios I'll have to see what brand. the antenna was just a wire with a spring up to the tail. you can make that yourself real easy bobf On 6/18/07, Jim Addington wrote: Robert, What brand is the ADF and is the antenna good? Jim Addington (Denton, Texas) N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: commander radios I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all the wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Increased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working fine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum powered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf 254 721 1450 href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com"> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: commander radios
Date: Jun 19, 2007
ja, you just running the backcourse. mason From: jtaddington(at)charter.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: C ommander-List: commander radiosDate: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:50:56 -0500 Thanks for checking, I have one of those I took off when I put the Collins 650A in. My ADF is a Yankee, it points when going north but won't point goi ng south. For a good Southern boy this is disgraceful. Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:48 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: commander radios I'll have to see what brand. the antenna was just a wire with a spring up t o the tail. you can make that yourself real easybobf On 6/18/07, Jim Addington wrote: Robert, What brand is the ADF and is the antenna good? Jim Addington (Denton, Texas) N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: commander radios I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all th e wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Inc reased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working f ine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum pow ered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf254 7 21 1450 href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com"> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 19, 2007
Subject: DATA PLATE
Has anyone here ever scene a Data Plate that has "Meets FAA US Drug Enforcement Reg" on the last line? Thanks, Bert ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: commander radios
Date: Jun 19, 2007
The problem is that the wind blows from the south most of the time. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:34 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: commander radios ja, you just running the backcourse. mason ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: jtaddington(at)charter.net To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: commander radios Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:50:56 -0500 Thanks for checking, I have one of those I took off when I put the Collins 650A in. My ADF is a Yankee, it points when going north but won't point going south. For a good Southern boy this is disgraceful. Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:48 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: commander radios I'll have to see what brand. the antenna was just a wire with a spring up to the tail. you can make that yourself real easy bobf On 6/18/07, Jim Addington wrote: Robert, What brand is the ADF and is the antenna good? Jim Addington (Denton, Texas) N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: commander radios I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all the wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Increased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working fine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum powered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf 254 721 1450 href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com"> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <steveg(at)nternet.com>
Subject: commander radios
Date: Jun 19, 2007
Jim, What airport do you keep N444BD? I am going to fly up to visit my brother in the Lake Dallas area in a few weeks and would like to avoid Addison if possible. Steve Gilson _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: commander radios Robert, What brand is the ADF and is the antenna good? Jim Addington (Denton, Texas) N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman <mailto:bobf(at)feldtman.com> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: commander radios I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all the wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Increased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working fine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum powered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf 254 721 1450 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: commander radios
Date: Jun 19, 2007
Steve, I keep mine at Denton Municipal, DTO, 8 miles north of Lake Dallas, but there is a grass strip at Lake Dallas,Lakeview 30F. I have had my Commander in there and a friend of mine used to take a DC-3 in there.Gas is high here at Denton so you might want to come with enough gas to make the round trip. They have gotten big time ideas here and might charge you for tie down for over night. I looked on airnav, Decatur 8F7 is even cheep gas and it is 19 west. My wife is down in her hips and now her back, doesn't want me to go any where because she is afraid she will fall, so may not be able to come out. I sure would like to meet you and see your plane. If I can help in any way please let me know. Jim Addington N444BD 500A ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:53 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: commander radios Jim, What airport do you keep N444BD? I am going to fly up to visit my brother in the Lake Dallas area in a few weeks and would like to avoid Addison if possible. Steve Gilson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:24 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: commander radios Robert, What brand is the ADF and is the antenna good? Jim Addington (Denton, Texas) N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: commander radios I just pulled a bunch of old radios (ADF, transponder, B4 autopilot, all the wires, actuators, control heads from the front panel) out of my 500B. Increased carrying load! Anybody interested in this stuff? ADF still working fine when I removed it - B4 didn't work ( was both electrical and vaccum powered). So if anybody wants it - let me know I am in Temple, Texas bobf 254 721 1450 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: DATA PLATE
Date: Jun 19, 2007
bb, is that a scene or been seen? mason From: BertBerry1(at)aol.comDate: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:38:35 -0400Subject: Comma nder-List: DATA PLATETo: commander-list(at)matronics.com Has anyone here ever scene a Data Plate that has "Meets FAA US Drug Enforc ement Reg" on the last line? Thanks, Bert See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: DATA PLATE
From: <bertberry1(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 19, 2007
I have a photo of it that I took. Send me your email address and as soon as I get back to the office ill forward it to you. Bert ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: DATA PLATE
From: <bertberry1(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 19, 2007
But to answer your question it could either, depending on where you were standing. That's what happens when you type in a hurry while your on the phone. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2007
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: commander radios
The commander is a 1964 and the ADF is an old coffee can crank type. Picks up AM radio great - used to fly along listening to Rush Limbaugh on some of the powerful AM stations. There is so much junk in the boxes of stuff they removed, there may be a loop antenna in there I didn't notice. The crank turned a cable all the way to the back! bobf On 6/19/07, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > > Good Morning bobf, > Maybe I have missed something here, but an ADF generally has some sort of > a loop antenna. Some are solid state and some are mechanical. Older units > generally have a separate sense antenna while the newest ones tend to have > the sense and loop antenna all in the same unit. > > The wire you describe sounds like a sense antenna. For the ADF to operate > as a direction finding device, you need to have some sort of "loop" antenna. > > The wire would have worked just fine for the low frequency range stations! > > How old is that Commander? Any possibility whet you removed was simply a > low frequency receiver? > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8503 > > In a message dated 6/19/2007 5:49:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > bobf(at)feldtman.com writes: > > I'll have to see what brand. the antenna was just a wire with a spring up > to the tail. you can make that yourself real easy > > bobf > > > ------------------------------ > See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>. > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 19, 2007
Subject: Re: commander radios
Good Evening Bob, That sounds like a Bendix manual loop receiver. The loop was mechanically actuated by that flex cable. In those days, what we now call ADF approaches were DF approaches and we could use a manual or even a fixed loop to execute the approach. Kind of a fun thing to do, but ADF made life a whole lot easier! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 6/19/2007 5:42:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bobf(at)feldtman.com writes: The commander is a 1964 and the ADF is an old coffee can crank type. Picks up AM radio great - used to fly along listening to Rush Limbaugh on some of the powerful AM stations. There is so much junk in the boxes of stuff they removed, there may be a loop antenna in there I didn't notice. The crank turned a cable all the way to the back! bobf ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 22, 2007
Subject: Re: winglets
Just to set the record straight. The AeroDyne winglets were not developed by the Air Force engineers. However, the deign was evaluated by Air Force engineers, visually not in wind tunnels, and they felt that they could probably not be improved on in their present form. They felt that there would not be a reasonable return on investment if additional evaluation was done. The originals were Commander factory winglets for the 695 Jet Props. A set of those were installed on Av Fuel's 500S (N66AV). Basically those that followed were copies of the factory winglets. They were then modified (stretched) to fit the 690 wing. No flight test were conducted to certify any performance improvement because it was too expensive. I conducted some of the original flight test for Dick Wartinger. Most of the flight test for certification were to make sure that there were no adverse effects like vibration. My findings about performance were subjective but I found that they made a significant improvement in the following areas: Low Speed , high angle of attack operations. The aircraft lifts off easier Stalls are much cleaner and normally break straight ahead (stall speed my be lower but we never certified that. Aileron control at low speed is significantly improved so cross winds are easier to handle especially in short wing aircraft (520 560 680s and Turbos). Approach speeds can be lowered 5-10 kts because of better low speed characteristics. Single engine climb appears to be improved It is hard to ell about normal climb I have never noticed any increase in cruse speed. And Oh Yea... they look way cool!!!!!! I did buy one of the first sets to put on a 681. My employer also had a 695A (1000) as well and it came with factory winglets. Anyway, that is the story on the winglets. Bill Leff ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com>
Subject: winglets
Date: Jun 22, 2007
Bill, Thanks much for the report. Did you install the winglets alone, or did you do them along with other changes. When I had them installed on my 680F(p) the flap gap seals were installed by Commander Aero at the same time, so it was impossible to know what changed what. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Just to set the record straight. The AeroDyne winglets were not developed by the Air Force engineers. However, the deign was evaluated by Air Force engineers, visually not in wind tunnels, and they felt that they could probably not be improved on in their present form. They felt that there would not be a reasonable return on investment if additional evaluation was done. The originals were Commander factory winglets for the 695 Jet Props. A set of those were installed on Av Fuel's 500S (N66AV). Basically those that followed were copies of the factory winglets. They were then modified (stretched) to fit the 690 wing. No flight test were conducted to certify any performance improvement because it was too expensive. I conducted some of the original flight test for Dick Wartinger. Most of the flight test for certification were to make sure that there were no adverse effects like vibration. My findings about performance were subjective but I found that they made a significant improvement in the following areas: Low Speed , high angle of attack operations. The aircraft lifts off easier Stalls are much cleaner and normally break straight ahead (stall speed my be lower but we never certified that. Aileron control at low speed is significantly improved so cross winds are easier to handle especially in short wing aircraft (520 560 680s and Turbos). Approach speeds can be lowered 5-10 kts because of better low speed characteristics. Single engine climb appears to be improved It is hard to ell about normal climb I have never noticed any increase in cruse speed. And Oh Yea... they look way cool!!!!!! I did buy one of the first sets to put on a 681. My employer also had a 695A (1000) as well and it came with factory winglets. Anyway, that is the story on the winglets. Bill Leff _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 22, 2007
Subject: Re: winglets
The flight test were done with only the winglets installed after a control test flight was done. Bob Hover did not like them for what he did but that was mostly high speed flying and there was no place to put wing tip smoke! Bill ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: winglets
Date: Jun 22, 2007
Moe, Several years back I talked to an aerodynamics person at the University of Texas at Arlington and was told that the winglets were designed for jets that fly at high altitudes in thin air and down close to stall speed. He said that at the lower altitudes and at speeds well above stall they would actually slow you down. They do look so cool though and with your pressurized plane may see some gain. I have forgotten what the percent in efficiency was on the B-727, but it was supposed to be enough to pay for themselves in a short time. Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Bill, Thanks much for the report. Did you install the winglets alone, or did you do them along with other changes. When I had them installed on my 680F(p) the flap gap seals were installed by Commander Aero at the same time, so it was impossible to know what changed what. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:03 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Just to set the record straight. The AeroDyne winglets were not developed by the Air Force engineers. However, the deign was evaluated by Air Force engineers, visually not in wind tunnels, and they felt that they could probably not be improved on in their present form. They felt that there would not be a reasonable return on investment if additional evaluation was done. The originals were Commander factory winglets for the 695 Jet Props. A set of those were installed on Av Fuel's 500S (N66AV). Basically those that followed were copies of the factory winglets. They were then modified (stretched) to fit the 690 wing. No flight test were conducted to certify any performance improvement because it was too expensive. I conducted some of the original flight test for Dick Wartinger. Most of the flight test for certification were to make sure that there were no adverse effects like vibration. My findings about performance were subjective but I found that they made a significant improvement in the following areas: Low Speed , high angle of attack operations. The aircraft lifts off easier Stalls are much cleaner and normally break straight ahead (stall speed my be lower but we never certified that. Aileron control at low speed is significantly improved so cross winds are easier to handle especially in short wing aircraft (520 560 680s and Turbos). Approach speeds can be lowered 5-10 kts because of better low speed characteristics. Single engine climb appears to be improved It is hard to ell about normal climb I have never noticed any increase in cruse speed. And Oh Yea... they look way cool!!!!!! I did buy one of the first sets to put on a 681. My employer also had a 695A (1000) as well and it came with factory winglets. Anyway, that is the story on the winglets. Bill Leff ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com>
Subject: winglets
Date: Jun 22, 2007
Jim, My younger son flies a 737 for the US Navy, and they agree that the winglets reduce fuel burn substantially at altitude. He quoted me some figures a while back, and as I remember the fuel burn saving was just south of 5%. The 680F(p) is obviously supercharged and pressurized, however, it seems to like about 17,000 ft. unless the winds are really good at higher altitude, and remember it has that nasty little placard that reminds you to de-pressurize at 21,000 or 22,000 feet (forgot which one since I never go up that high). As far as speed it seems to be about the same. Perhaps the flap gap seals and winglets offset each other there? I am sure that the combination did slightly extend my takeoff run a little (100 to 150 feet). Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Moe, Several years back I talked to an aerodynamics person at the University of Texas at Arlington and was told that the winglets were designed for jets that fly at high altitudes in thin air and down close to stall speed. He said that at the lower altitudes and at speeds well above stall they would actually slow you down. They do look so cool though and with your pressurized plane may see some gain. I have forgotten what the percent in efficiency was on the B-727, but it was supposed to be enough to pay for themselves in a short time. Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing <mailto:moe(at)rosspistons.com> Pistons Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Bill, Thanks much for the report. Did you install the winglets alone, or did you do them along with other changes. When I had them installed on my 680F(p) the flap gap seals were installed by Commander Aero at the same time, so it was impossible to know what changed what. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Just to set the record straight. The AeroDyne winglets were not developed by the Air Force engineers. However, the deign was evaluated by Air Force engineers, visually not in wind tunnels, and they felt that they could probably not be improved on in their present form. They felt that there would not be a reasonable return on investment if additional evaluation was done. The originals were Commander factory winglets for the 695 Jet Props. A set of those were installed on Av Fuel's 500S (N66AV). Basically those that followed were copies of the factory winglets. They were then modified (stretched) to fit the 690 wing. No flight test were conducted to certify any performance improvement because it was too expensive. I conducted some of the original flight test for Dick Wartinger. Most of the flight test for certification were to make sure that there were no adverse effects like vibration. My findings about performance were subjective but I found that they made a significant improvement in the following areas: Low Speed , high angle of attack operations. The aircraft lifts off easier Stalls are much cleaner and normally break straight ahead (stall speed my be lower but we never certified that. Aileron control at low speed is significantly improved so cross winds are easier to handle especially in short wing aircraft (520 560 680s and Turbos). Approach speeds can be lowered 5-10 kts because of better low speed characteristics. Single engine climb appears to be improved It is hard to ell about normal climb I have never noticed any increase in cruse speed. And Oh Yea... they look way cool!!!!!! I did buy one of the first sets to put on a 681. My employer also had a 695A (1000) as well and it came with factory winglets. Anyway, that is the story on the winglets. Bill Leff _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: winglets
Date: Jun 22, 2007
Moe, What was the purpose of depressurizing at 22,000'? I never had the patience to take the 680FP up that high, but I must admit I never saw that placard. Well, on the other hand, in Africa it might not have made it all the way out to us back then. Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe - Ross Racing Pistons Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:47 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Jim, My younger son flies a 737 for the US Navy, and they agree that the winglets reduce fuel burn substantially at altitude. He quoted me some figures a while back, and as I remember the fuel burn saving was just south of 5%. The 680F(p) is obviously supercharged and pressurized, however, it seems to like about 17,000 ft. unless the winds are really good at higher altitude, and remember it has that nasty little placard that reminds you to de-pressurize at 21,000 or 22,000 feet (forgot which one since I never go up that high). As far as speed it seems to be about the same. Perhaps the flap gap seals and winglets offset each other there? I am sure that the combination did slightly extend my takeoff run a little (100 to 150 feet). Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Moe, Several years back I talked to an aerodynamics person at the University of Texas at Arlington and was told that the winglets were designed for jets that fly at high altitudes in thin air and down close to stall speed. He said that at the lower altitudes and at speeds well above stall they would actually slow you down. They do look so cool though and with your pressurized plane may see some gain. I have forgotten what the percent in efficiency was on the B-727, but it was supposed to be enough to pay for themselves in a short time. Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing <mailto:moe(at)rosspistons.com> Pistons Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Bill, Thanks much for the report. Did you install the winglets alone, or did you do them along with other changes. When I had them installed on my 680F(p) the flap gap seals were installed by Commander Aero at the same time, so it was impossible to know what changed what. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Just to set the record straight. The AeroDyne winglets were not developed by the Air Force engineers. However, the deign was evaluated by Air Force engineers, visually not in wind tunnels, and they felt that they could probably not be improved on in their present form. They felt that there would not be a reasonable return on investment if additional evaluation was done. The originals were Commander factory winglets for the 695 Jet Props. A set of those were installed on Av Fuel's 500S (N66AV). Basically those that followed were copies of the factory winglets. They were then modified (stretched) to fit the 690 wing. No flight test were conducted to certify any performance improvement because it was too expensive. I conducted some of the original flight test for Dick Wartinger. Most of the flight test for certification were to make sure that there were no adverse effects like vibration. My findings about performance were subjective but I found that they made a significant improvement in the following areas: Low Speed , high angle of attack operations. The aircraft lifts off easier Stalls are much cleaner and normally break straight ahead (stall speed my be lower but we never certified that. Aileron control at low speed is significantly improved so cross winds are easier to handle especially in short wing aircraft (520 560 680s and Turbos). Approach speeds can be lowered 5-10 kts because of better low speed characteristics. Single engine climb appears to be improved It is hard to ell about normal climb I have never noticed any increase in cruse speed. And Oh Yea... they look way cool!!!!!! I did buy one of the first sets to put on a 681. My employer also had a 695A (1000) as well and it came with factory winglets. Anyway, that is the story on the winglets. Bill Leff _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com>
Subject: winglets
Date: Jun 22, 2007
Nico, I have not ever found a stated reason; however, I suspect that they were afraid that you would blow the windows out of the plane. Remember Commander "got by" with adding pressurization on as an option or as an accessory, not by certifying it as a new air frame. If you check the registration on my plane (N680RR) it is certified as a 680F. On some of the paper work it is listed as a 680F(p). Perhaps Sir Barry could weigh in on this. Regards, Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 2:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Moe, What was the purpose of depressurizing at 22,000'? I never had the patience to take the 680FP up that high, but I must admit I never saw that placard. Well, on the other hand, in Africa it might not have made it all the way out to us back then. Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe - Ross Racing Pistons Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:47 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Jim, My younger son flies a 737 for the US Navy, and they agree that the winglets reduce fuel burn substantially at altitude. He quoted me some figures a while back, and as I remember the fuel burn saving was just south of 5%. The 680F(p) is obviously supercharged and pressurized, however, it seems to like about 17,000 ft. unless the winds are really good at higher altitude, and remember it has that nasty little placard that reminds you to de-pressurize at 21,000 or 22,000 feet (forgot which one since I never go up that high). As far as speed it seems to be about the same. Perhaps the flap gap seals and winglets offset each other there? I am sure that the combination did slightly extend my takeoff run a little (100 to 150 feet). Moe _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Moe, Several years back I talked to an aerodynamics person at the University of Texas at Arlington and was told that the winglets were designed for jets that fly at high altitudes in thin air and down close to stall speed. He said that at the lower altitudes and at speeds well above stall they would actually slow you down. They do look so cool though and with your pressurized plane may see some gain. I have forgotten what the percent in efficiency was on the B-727, but it was supposed to be enough to pay for themselves in a short time. Jim Addington N444BD ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing <mailto:moe(at)rosspistons.com> Pistons Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Bill, Thanks much for the report. Did you install the winglets alone, or did you do them along with other changes. When I had them installed on my 680F(p) the flap gap seals were installed by Commander Aero at the same time, so it was impossible to know what changed what. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: winglets Just to set the record straight. The AeroDyne winglets were not developed by the Air Force engineers. However, the deign was evaluated by Air Force engineers, visually not in wind tunnels, and they felt that they could probably not be improved on in their present form. They felt that there would not be a reasonable return on investment if additional evaluation was done. The originals were Commander factory winglets for the 695 Jet Props. A set of those were installed on Av Fuel's 500S (N66AV). Basically those that followed were copies of the factory winglets. They were then modified (stretched) to fit the 690 wing. No flight test were conducted to certify any performance improvement because it was too expensive. I conducted some of the original flight test for Dick Wartinger. Most of the flight test for certification were to make sure that there were no adverse effects like vibration. My findings about performance were subjective but I found that they made a significant improvement in the following areas: Low Speed , high angle of attack operations. The aircraft lifts off easier Stalls are much cleaner and normally break straight ahead (stall speed my be lower but we never certified that. Aileron control at low speed is significantly improved so cross winds are easier to handle especially in short wing aircraft (520 560 680s and Turbos). Approach speeds can be lowered 5-10 kts because of better low speed characteristics. Single engine climb appears to be improved It is hard to ell about normal climb I have never noticed any increase in cruse speed. And Oh Yea... they look way cool!!!!!! I did buy one of the first sets to put on a 681. My employer also had a 695A (1000) as well and it came with factory winglets. Anyway, that is the story on the winglets. Bill Leff _____ See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: winglets
Date: Jun 22, 2007
Hi All, Moe is exactly right. The Pressurization system on a 680F was considered an Optional Extra. Therefore, the Models 680F & 680F(P) shared the same 'Unit' or 'Dash' number sequence. Of the 152 Unit numbers for the 680F, 47 were 680F(P). The last 680F built was s/n 1447-152. And yes, if you look at the Serial Number Plate for the F(P) version, it will tell you it's a 680F. You won't find the 680F(P) on the Type Certificate 2A4 as a separate Model, but Note 5 tells us all about it: "An optional pressurized version of the Model 680-F designated "680-F (Pressurized)" was approved June 29, 1962. This model is a standard 680-F incorporating a factory modification per Aero Commander Dwg. 610021. Note the special required equipment list and the special equipment column for this modified 680-F in Revision No. 24 or Service Information SI-118." The correct Drawing No. though is 6100021. Strange then that the Model 720 wasn't called the 680E(P) and the 680FLP wasn't the 680FL(P). Although, the latter was going to be called the 680FPL and the first few were Certificated as such! Every day's a schoolday. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:56 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Nico, I have not ever found a stated reason; however, I suspect that they were afraid that you would blow the windows out of the plane. Remember Commander "got by" with adding pressurization on as an option or as an accessory, not by certifying it as a new air frame. If you check the registration on my plane (N680RR) it is certified as a 680F. On some of the paper work it is listed as a 680F(p). Perhaps Sir Barry could weigh in on this. Regards, Moe ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 2:21 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Moe, What was the purpose of depressurizing at 22,000'? I never had the patience to take the 680FP up that high, but I must admit I never saw that placard. Well, on the other hand, in Africa it might not have made it all the way out to us back then. Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe - Ross Racing Pistons Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:47 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: winglets Jim, My younger son flies a 737 for the US Navy, and they agree that the winglets reduce fuel burn substantially at altitude. He quoted me some figures a while back, and as I remember the fuel burn saving was just south of 5%.

Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ck

Commander-Archive.digest.vol-ck