Commander-Archive.digest.vol-cn
August 18, 2007 - September 29, 2007
Thanks
Nico
_____
| From: | owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:27 AM
| Subject: | Re: 500A IO-550 Conversion |
Hi Nico,
By clicking on "Aircraft Models > Piston Twins > 500A Colemill", I couldn't
find a photo of the Colemill 500A (Colemill Super 300), but did find photos
of the Merlyn 500B. (Aircraft Models > Piston Twins > 500B Merlyn).
Let me know the registration of the Colemill 500A and I'll check it out.
Merlyn Commanders
The Merlyn 500B pictured is almost certainly s/n 1155-84, N6258X.
While owned by Jerry W Rodgers and PG&E Inc., this had Lycoming
TIO-540-J2B(D) 350hp engines with Hartzell HC-C4YR-2UF/FC6660 4-blade
propellers, signed-off as installed on August 23rd 1995.
These propellers are of 69.75 in. diameter, vs. the usual 80 in. of the
standard 500A props.
Must make for a quieter cabin, unless the increase in fuselage/prop
clearance is eaten away by an extra blade being involved.
There were Experimental - Market Survey Certificates issued on March 14th
1997 and June 11th 1997, before one in the Standard - Normal category was
issued on October 7th 1997.
Jerry kindly flew me from Nashville to Oklahoma City in this Commander after
the Fly-In in June 1997. He had also attended the Fly-In held at San Antonio
the previous year.
I think there's now an STC for this, SA5969NM, covering the 500B, 500U &
500S.
Model 500S serial numbers 3155, 3255 & 3319 have also had this engine
installed.
Model 500B serial numbers 999-30 and 1525-187 have had Lycoming
TIO-540-AE2A(MC) 350hp engines with Hartzell HC-C3YR-2UF/FC8468 or FC8468-6
propellers installed. This enables a Gross weight increase to 7,200lb under
STC SA01212SE.
I would really like to get some performance figures for Commanders with
these two engines.
Colemill Commanders
The 500A can be modified to a Colemill "Super 300" under STCs SA340SO and
SA366SO. These also approve a GW increase from 6,000lb to 6,530lb.
(Other 500A Models can have a GW increase from 6,000lb to 6,250lb if Service
Change No. 50 is accomplished.)
Of the 99 examples built of the 500A, at least 21 have been converted to
500B and 31 modified to Colemill "Super 300".
Additionally, the first of these 99 was converted to the first Model 680F.
(s/n 500A-871-1 to 680F-871-1).
The Colemill conversion replaces the Continental IO-470-M 260hp engines with
Continental IO-520-E 300hp engines.
The original Hartzell HC-A2XF-2B/8433-4 propellers are also replaced, with
Hartzell EHC-A3VF-2B/V7636D.
Again, some performance feed-back for the Colemill examples will be welcome.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
| From: | "nico css" < <mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:13 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
|
| Very interesting, Mike.
| If you look on the TCFG website ( <http://www.aerocommander.com>
www.aerocommander.com) click on Aircraft
| Models > Piston Twins > 500 A Colemill, you will see that I posted a
picture
| of what I believed at the time to be of a 500A Colemill. The specs,
however,
| are of a straight 500A because I had nothing on the Colemill.
| You will also see that there are some pictures of a 500B Merlyn with its
| four-blade props and all. The specs on the Merlyn page are of a straight
| 500B because I have nothing on the Merlyn either. (Does anyone have specs
| and history on these models?)
| Do you know whether what I have on the website are genuine Colemill and
| Merlyn mods or are they experimental aircraft? Also, do you know how the
| Merlyn would stack up against the Colemill, in your opinion?
| Thanks
| Nico
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: <mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com>
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
| [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd
| Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 7:09 PM
| To: Commander-List(at)matronics.com
| Subject: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
|
floydgm(at)hotmail.com>
|
| Merlyn Products currently has an IO-550 STC project in the works for the
| 500A. Rumor has it anyway.
|
| Mike
| Northern Commanders LLC
|
| _________________________________________________________________
| Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the best
route!
|
<http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theate
r>
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater
|
&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene-060
| 7&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
|
| ==========
| Commander-List browse
| Archive and much
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
| ==========
| bsp; available via
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
| ===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 500A IO-550 Conversion |
Hi Nico,
Permission granted - no problem!
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 3:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
Thanks, Barry. There's a lot of useful information from your bunker of
Commander intelligence about these products. I would like to incorporate
that into the website, with your permission.
I posted my reply to Mike Floyd before I read your email.
Thanks
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:27 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
Hi Nico,
By clicking on "Aircraft Models > Piston Twins > 500A Colemill", I
couldn't find a photo of the Colemill 500A (Colemill Super 300), but did
find photos of the Merlyn 500B. (Aircraft Models > Piston Twins > 500B
Merlyn).
Let me know the registration of the Colemill 500A and I'll check it
out.
Merlyn Commanders
The Merlyn 500B pictured is almost certainly s/n 1155-84, N6258X.
While owned by Jerry W Rodgers and PG&E Inc., this had Lycoming
TIO-540-J2B(D) 350hp engines with Hartzell HC-C4YR-2UF/FC6660 4-blade
propellers, signed-off as installed on August 23rd 1995.
These propellers are of 69.75 in. diameter, vs. the usual 80 in. of
the standard 500A props.
Must make for a quieter cabin, unless the increase in fuselage/prop
clearance is eaten away by an extra blade being involved.
There were Experimental - Market Survey Certificates issued on March
14th 1997 and June 11th 1997, before one in the Standard - Normal
category was issued on October 7th 1997.
Jerry kindly flew me from Nashville to Oklahoma City in this Commander
after the Fly-In in June 1997. He had also attended the Fly-In held at
San Antonio the previous year.
I think there's now an STC for this, SA5969NM, covering the 500B, 500U
& 500S.
Model 500S serial numbers 3155, 3255 & 3319 have also had this engine
installed.
Model 500B serial numbers 999-30 and 1525-187 have had Lycoming
TIO-540-AE2A(MC) 350hp engines with Hartzell HC-C3YR-2UF/FC8468 or
FC8468-6 propellers installed. This enables a Gross weight increase to
7,200lb under STC SA01212SE.
I would really like to get some performance figures for Commanders
with these two engines.
Colemill Commanders
The 500A can be modified to a Colemill "Super 300" under STCs SA340SO
and SA366SO. These also approve a GW increase from 6,000lb to 6,530lb.
(Other 500A Models can have a GW increase from 6,000lb to 6,250lb if
Service Change No. 50 is accomplished.)
Of the 99 examples built of the 500A, at least 21 have been converted
to 500B and 31 modified to Colemill "Super 300".
Additionally, the first of these 99 was converted to the first Model
680F. (s/n 500A-871-1 to 680F-871-1).
The Colemill conversion replaces the Continental IO-470-M 260hp
engines with Continental IO-520-E 300hp engines.
The original Hartzell HC-A2XF-2B/8433-4 propellers are also replaced,
with Hartzell EHC-A3VF-2B/V7636D.
Again, some performance feed-back for the Colemill examples will be
welcome.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:13 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
|
| Very interesting, Mike.
| If you look on the TCFG website (www.aerocommander.com) click on
Aircraft
| Models > Piston Twins > 500 A Colemill, you will see that I posted a
picture
| of what I believed at the time to be of a 500A Colemill. The specs,
however,
| are of a straight 500A because I had nothing on the Colemill.
| You will also see that there are some pictures of a 500B Merlyn with
its
| four-blade props and all. The specs on the Merlyn page are of a
straight
| 500B because I have nothing on the Merlyn either. (Does anyone have
specs
| and history on these models?)
| Do you know whether what I have on the website are genuine Colemill
and
| Merlyn mods or are they experimental aircraft? Also, do you know how
the
| Merlyn would stack up against the Colemill, in your opinion?
| Thanks
| Nico
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
| [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike
floyd
| Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 7:09 PM
| To: Commander-List(at)matronics.com
| Subject: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
|
|
| Merlyn Products currently has an IO-550 STC project in the works for
the
| 500A. Rumor has it anyway.
|
| Mike
| Northern Commanders LLC
|
| _________________________________________________________________
| Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the best
route!
|
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20
theater
|
&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1
000&scene-060
| 7&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
|
| ==========
| Commander-List browse
| Archive and much
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
| ==========
| bsp; available via
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
| ===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Random thoughts on Merlyn Products conversions |
Merlyn products makes some great conversions. There are a couple being
flown around here, including a 320-hp converted 500B and one of the
original 350-hp 500B's with the 4-blade props. I've flown in both, and
have PIC time in the 4-blade version. The 4-blade makes a very different
sound than my stock 500B (of course, the props spin at 2,700 on takeoff,
I think) and its efficiency really doesn't shine until you're up in the
teens. The 320hp conversion feels like a stock 500B, except you can make
48" of MP on takeoff, like the 350hp. Being a low-compression engine, it
also doesn't really show you what it's got until you're up over 10,000'.
I think I might prefer the Merlyn 300hp conversion, which is a
turbonormalized application (like my rayjays) on the IO-540-M1C5
(wide-deck) engines. This would give me most of the zip of the 320hp up
high, but between 3,500 - 10,000, where I do most of my "local" flying,
I wouldn't suffer any of the inefficiencies (think fuel consumption)
that the boosted engines would. Plus, I still would get a gross weight
increase.
Hugh @ Merlyn really knows what he's doing. His single-turbo/mechanical
wastegate is far, far better than the rayjay setup that I have in my
airplane. You just push the throttle levers to the MP you want, whenever
you want it. It also has a very nice blow-off valve to prevent you from
overboosting the engine. All this in a package that is MUCH simpler than
the rayjays it replaces; there's tons of room in the aft nacelle to
still get at accessories & oil filters, unlike in my airplane with all
the rayjay plumbing in the way.
At some point I'm sure I'll buy one of Hugh's STC's for my airplane,
although, with fuel the way it is, I'd like to see a diesel (jet-A)
option for our airplanes. Maybe the Century 4.0 engine might be a
potential retrofit, although I've heard that neither Century nor Twin
Commander have expressed *any* interest whatsoever in supporting an STC
effort...
/J
nico css wrote:
>
> Mike,
> I visited Merlyn's website and found many interesting things, which answered
> some of my questions. I am going to contact these folks for more information
> and permission to publish some of their material on our website.
> It appears as if these STC's are existing and flying mods. Perhaps if Bilbo
> had known about these, he could have had his 500A dressed up in one of
> these.
> Thanks for introducing me to them.
> Nico
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd
> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:35 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
>
>
> I do not know the answers to all of your questions but here is the website I
>
> have found:
>
> http://www.merlynproducts.com/commander.html
>
> I am in Spokane right now and will find out on Monday what Merlyn is doing.
>
> Mike
> Northern Commanders LLC
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the best route!
> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater
> &cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene-060
> 7&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2469 (20070818) Information __________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Through-Stud Sheer... |
Folks,
Is an STC really necessary, has anybody explored a field upgrade.
I say this, because several upgrades with which I have been involved
in Australian (not AC) have been done on our (near) equivalent of a
377 field approval system, with the appropriate CAR 35 (DER) input.
As a simplification, it is assumed that the extra power will be a
"bonus", there was no attempt to re-certify any increased performance.
This has avoided the need to re-determine Vmc figures etc., if the
upgrade is a twin.
I know it all sound a bit rough and ready, but there is little
involved in putting the IO-520 in the 500A, I doubt that the IO-550
is much more of a bother, with a co-operative FAA man.
Needless to say, one would be wise to have some carefully established
"informal guidelines", if in fact you just happened to be
"inadvertently" taking advantage of the additional HP, and one quit.
Fortunately the wonderful engine out handling of Aero Commanders in
general make this somewhat less fraught than some other
manufacturer's products that started with IO-470, but have acquired
IO-520 along the way.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
At 03:24 AM 15/08/2007, you wrote:
>Good idea about the 550... A guy in the hangar here has a Bonanza
>with one and he loves it... I guess put out a call for all 12 of
>the existing 500A owners left to see what interest might be shown ;)
>
>
>David Owens
>Aerial Viewpoint
>N14AV
>AC-500A-Colemill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Random thoughts on Merlyn Products conversions |
What happened to F. Lee Baily's 500B project where he was putting on the
TIO-540s?
Jim Addington
500A
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Random thoughts on Merlyn Products conversions
>
> Merlyn products makes some great conversions. There are a couple being
> flown around here, including a 320-hp converted 500B and one of the
> original 350-hp 500B's with the 4-blade props. I've flown in both, and e
> was putting have PIC time in the 4-blade version. The 4-blade makes a very
> different sound than my stock 500B (of course, the props spin at 2,700 on
> takeoff, I think) and its efficiency really doesn't shine until you're up
> in the teens. The 320hp conversion feels like a stock 500B, except you can
> make 48" of MP on takeoff, like the 350hp. Being a low-compression engine,
> it also doesn't really show you what it's got until you're up over
> 10,000'.
>
> I think I might prefer the Merlyn 300hp conversion, which is a
> turbonormalized application (like my rayjays) on the IO-540-M1C5
> (wide-deck) engines. This would give me most of the zip of the 320hp up
> high, but between 3,500 - 10,000, where I do most of my "local" flying, I
> wouldn't suffer any of the inefficiencies (think fuel consumption) that
> the boosted engines would. Plus, I still would get a gross weight
> increase.
>
> Hugh @ Merlyn really knows what he's doing. His single-turbo/mechanical
> wastegate is far, far better than the rayjay setup that I have in my
> airplane. You just push the throttle levers to the MP you want, whenever
> you want it. It also has a very nice blow-off valve to prevent you from
> overboosting the engine. All this in a package that is MUCH simpler than
> the rayjays it replaces; there's tons of room in the aft nacelle to still
> get at accessories & oil filters, unlike in my airplane with all the
> rayjay plumbing in the way.
>
> At some point I'm sure I'll buy one of Hugh's STC's for my airplane,
> although, with fuel the way it is, I'd like to see a diesel (jet-A) option
> for our airplanes. Maybe the Century 4.0 engine might be a potential
> retrofit, although I've heard that neither Century nor Twin Commander have
> expressed *any* interest whatsoever in supporting an STC effort...
>
> /J
>
> nico css wrote:
>>
>>
>> Mike,
>> I visited Merlyn's website and found many interesting things, which
>> answered
>> some of my questions. I am going to contact these folks for more
>> information
>> and permission to publish some of their material on our website.
>> It appears as if these STC's are existing and flying mods. Perhaps if
>> Bilbo
>> had known about these, he could have had his 500A dressed up in one of
>> these.
>> Thanks for introducing me to them. Nico
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike
>> floyd
>> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:35 PM
>> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
>>
>>
>> I do not know the answers to all of your questions but here is the
>> website I
>>
>> have found:
>>
>> http://www.merlynproducts.com/commander.html
>>
>> I am in Spokane right now and will find out on Monday what Merlyn is
>> doing.
>>
>> Mike
>> Northern Commanders LLC
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the best
>> route!
>> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater
>> &cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene-060
>> 7&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ NOD32 2469 (20070818) Information __________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Random thoughts on Merlyn Products conversions |
Hi Jim,
Good question!
I think this project was dubbed the "Hoover Hornet" and possibly
involved a 500S Shrike, Serial Number 3253.
As N808AC, this received an Experimental-Exhibition certificate on
November 2nd 1995 (TT3,529.30) while owned by Palm Beach Roamer Inc., of
West Palm Beach, Florida.
Palm Beach Roamer Inc is owned by F Lee Bailey or his son, if I recall
correctly.
It was returned to Standard-Normal & Utility category on November 21st
(TT3,538.30), but was again placed in the Experimental-Exhibition
category on June 13th 1997 (TT3,713.00) although the aircraft had been
sold to Aircraft Trading Center Inc., of Tequesta, Florida, on April 9th
1996.
The Experimental Certificate was renewed on August 13th 1997
(TT3,719.40).
In March 1998, the Shrike was sold in St Vincent & Grenadines as J8-VBE.
However, the last time I checked the FAA records for this aircraft,
there was no Form 337 covering a change of engine, but Hartzell
HC-C3YR-2UF/FC8468-6R propellers were installed on July 22nd 1995 under
Twin Commander's Custom Kit 67.
I have earmarked this Shrike or a review of the records when I visit the
FAA Records Center after the Fly-In.
In the meantime, if anyone can add anything ..........
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)charter.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Random thoughts on Merlyn Products
conversions
|
| What happened to F. Lee Baily's 500B project where he was putting on
the
| TIO-540s?
| Jim Addington
| 500A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BertBerry1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Anyone have any idea which one this is. It is obviously not a Shrike.
Thanks,
Bert
_http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQcate
goryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem_
(http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQcategoryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrd
Z1QQcmdZViewItem)
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
| Subject: | prop governor body |
Our 500B is down in Springfield, Mo with a bad prop governor. The prop shop
in Dallas tells me will be hard to find. Does anyone have either a used prop
governor (mainly need the body) or a source for a new or rebuilt prop
governor for an IO540 from 1964 commander 500B?
thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM> |
| Subject: | prop governor body |
bf, call parts/gary @commander aero 888-881-5580. mason
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:52:05 -0500From: bobf(at)feldtman.comTo: commander-l
ist(at)matronics.comSubject: Commander-List: prop governor body
Our 500B is down in Springfield, Mo with a bad prop governor. The prop shop
in Dallas tells me will be hard to find. Does anyone have either a used pr
op governor (mainly need the body) or a source for a new or rebuilt prop go
vernor for an IO540 from 1964 commander 500B?
thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Hi Bert,
I've sent the seller a question, asking what the Serial Number is.
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Anyone have any idea which one this is. It is obviously not a Shrike.
Thanks,
Bert
http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQ
categoryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
| From: | bertberry1(at)aol.com |
Me too, maybe we will get a reply.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:14:27
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Hi Bert,
I've sent the seller a question, asking what the Serial Number is.
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com <mailto:BertBerry1(at)aol.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Anyone have any idea which one this is. It is obviously not a Shrike.
Thanks,
Bert
http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQcategoryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
----------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
| Subject: | AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Hummmm....1958 Shrike, two bad engines, bent wing...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bertberry1(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Me too, maybe we will get a reply.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:14:27
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Hi Bert,
I've sent the seller a question, asking what the Serial Number is.
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com <mailto:BertBerry1(at)aol.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Anyone have any idea which one this is. It is obviously not a Shrike.
Thanks,
Bert
http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQcat
egoryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
<http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQca
tegoryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
----------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
Looks like a 560A to me.? It is a 560A, E or a 680.? Notice it has what appears
to be a cowl flap on the LH engine nacelle??? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 2:14 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Hi Bert,
?
I've sent the seller a question, asking what the Serial Number is.
?
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Anyone have any idea which one this is.? It is obviously not a Shrike.
?
Thanks,
?
Bert
?
?
http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQcategoryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
AOL.com.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Thats the JATO outlet...
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Hello Guys, looking for a prop spinner for my 680. I have the Metzger STC
prop conversion ( three blade spinner only). Do appreciate your help. Gil
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
| Subject: | prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Hi Gill,
I have a spare spinner for my 680F(p) with three blade props. If they are
the same, we can probably do something.
Regards,
Moe
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:04 AM
Subject: Commander-List: prop spinner for a 680 commander
Hello Guys, looking for a prop spinner for my 680. I have the Metzger STC
prop conversion ( three blade spinner only). Do appreciate your help. Gil
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Girod" <DonGirod(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
JB;
My commander is a '57 560E, and the front of the eng.cowl is much
different than the picture. Also in the picture I notice what looks
like a small possible intake hole above and slightly ahead of the cowl
door. My 560E does not have either one of these. Also curious as to
what the item is directly to the rear the cockpit door handle on the
fuselage?
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Looks like a 560A to me. It is a 560A, E or a 680. Notice it has
what appears to be a cowl flap on the LH engine nacelle?? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 2:14 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Hi Bert,
I've sent the seller a question, asking what the Serial Number is.
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Anyone have any idea which one this is. It is obviously not a
Shrike.
Thanks,
Bert
http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQ
categoryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
AOL.com.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
8/19/2007 7:27 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BertBerry1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
I got a response from the seller, he/she said that all they knew is that it
was a 1958 Shrike.... and that it needed alot of work. They did promise to get
back to me with more info shortly. As soon as I get that I'll let you know.
Bert
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
In a message dated 21-Aug-07 10:32:34 Pacific Daylight Time,
DonGirod(at)bellsouth.net writes:
My commander is a '57 560E, and the front of the eng.cowl is much different
than the picture. Also in the picture I notice what looks like a small
possible intake hole above and slightly ahead of the cowl door. My 560E does not
have either one of these. Also curious as to what the item is directly to the
rear the cockpit door handle on the fuselage?
Don, All,
Just to throw this into a spin ... at the Nashville TCFG Fly-In (1997 I
think) Gary Gadberry presented a slide show on the AirCenter Shrike Conversions.
Just to stump the experts, he showed what turned out to be an AC-500, but
with so many mods, it was difficult to know that right away.
The AC-500 in his show was camouflaged by a Shrike nose, eyebrow windows,
front door, 3 blade props, square rudder cap and perhaps tail stinger. (It also
had a round nose tire, but it appears to have since been replaced with a
semi-square one.)
I wonder if this is that plane?
The gizmo on the nacelle may be an ice detection light.
The doo-dad aft of the door frame may be a logo plaque.
Wing Commander Gordon
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
A little odd that it's listed as a battery operated radio controlled
aircraft. Maybe that explains the cowling? Good news is that it's Almost
Ready to Fly!
A couple pieces of balsa and a new shrink covering should fix that wind
damage right up.
Bet the batteries will be expensive.
Caveat emptor.......
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Girod
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
JB;
My commander is a '57 560E, and the front of the eng.cowl is much
different than the picture. Also in the picture I notice what looks
like a small possible intake hole above and slightly ahead of the cowl
door. My 560E does not have either one of these. Also curious as to
what the item is directly to the rear the cockpit door handle on the
fuselage?
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Looks like a 560A to me. It is a 560A, E or a 680. Notice it has
what appears to be a cowl flap on the LH engine nacelle?? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 2:14 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Hi Bert,
I've sent the seller a question, asking what the Serial Number is.
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
Anyone have any idea which one this is. It is obviously not a
Shrike.
Thanks,
Bert
http://cgi.ebay.com/shrike-aero-commander_W0QQitemZ250156694670QQihZ015QQ
categoryZ2563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
AOL.com.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Date: 8/19/2007 7:27 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Moe, how much do you want for the spinner? Thanks Gil
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Hello All,
I was on the verge of suggesting exactly what our excellent Wing
Commander came up with - that the Commander in question was a Model 500,
Serial Number 639, when the eBay seller sent me an email confirming that
the Commander being offered is indeed this aircraft.
I was also going to suggest the nacelle 'gizmo' was an ice detection
light.
Anyway, this is a unique Model 500, for which I have traced the
following modifications:
Lycoming IO-540-A1A5 turbocharged engines, with Hartzell
HC-A3VK-2B/7636D 3-blade props (STC SA257CE)
Engines installed in March 1964, STC issued July 1964, through Riley
Aeronautics Corp., in Fort Lauderdale.
mtow increased to 6,500lb from 6,000lb (STC SA377SO) - Sep67
'Shrike' tail cone assembly (STC SA3476WE) - Jun95
'Shrike' vertical tip assembly (STC SA3492WE) - Jun95
Miller nose cone (STC SA 585SW) - Jul95
Cockpit overhead windows (STC SA3516WE) - Jul95
I've found no record of when the front cabin door was installed though.
Last known owner:
D Wayne Durham, of Easley, SC (which ties-in with the Email address on
eBay, and its location).
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
In a message dated 21-Aug-07 10:32:34 Pacific Daylight Time,
DonGirod(at)bellsouth.net writes:
My commander is a '57 560E, and the front of the eng.cowl is much
different than the picture. Also in the picture I notice what looks
like a small possible intake hole above and slightly ahead of the cowl
door. My 560E does not have either one of these. Also curious as to
what the item is directly to the rear the cockpit door handle on the
fuselage?
Don, All,
Just to throw this into a spin ... at the Nashville TCFG Fly-In (1997
I think) Gary Gadberry presented a slide show on the AirCenter Shrike
Conversions.
Just to stump the experts, he showed what turned out to be an AC-500,
but with so many mods, it was difficult to know that right away.
The AC-500 in his show was camouflaged by a Shrike nose, eyebrow
windows, front door, 3 blade props, square rudder cap and perhaps tail
stinger. (It also had a round nose tire, but it appears to have since
been replaced with a semi-square one.)
I wonder if this is that plane?
The gizmo on the nacelle may be an ice detection light.
The doo-dad aft of the door frame may be a logo plaque.
Wing Commander Gordon
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
| Subject: | prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Gil,
If memory serves correctly I paid $ 350.00 each for them, several years ago
and obviously don't want to loose money. I have two, one is polished and
the other is hard anodized a really ugly Army green. Both appear to be in
very good condition, although, the green one appears to be a little bit
thicker around the screw holes, because it has not been polished. Your
choice $ 350.00. Where do you live? Finding a good box to ship in might be
a little bit of a problem.
Moe
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: prop spinner for a 680 commander
Moe, how much do you want for the spinner? Thanks Gil
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
In a message dated 21-Aug-07 12:39:36 Pacific Daylight Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
I was also going to suggest the nacelle 'gizmo' was an ice detection light.
That makes me feel a wee bit more secure, Sir Barry!
Thanks for the data on this very unique airplane. Someone should really
contact the eBay seller and have them clean up their ad.
Sir Barry, would you consent to having the details in your post uploaded to
the eBay seller?
For the sake of accuracy -- not to mention the value should go up -- I think
this information should appear on eBay.
Cheers,
Wing Commander Gordon
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Moe, Before you ship the spinner, I need to make sure it fits the Metzger
STS conversion ( Three Bladed Prop. Is it the larger spinner(more than 14 inches
and can the thicker one be polished up? Thanks Gil p.s. My address is as
follows: Gil Walker 6104 Belle Rive Dr. Brentwood, Tn 37027 Trl. 615-373-5703
Cell 615-310 5030. If you will e-mail me your number I will call you and
discuss. Thanks
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Hi Keith,
I have emailed Mr Durham again and suggested his Commander should not be
advertised as a "1958 shrike aero commander", but a "1958 Model 500 Aero
Commander, incorporating some 'Shrike' mods" or similar.
It is s/n 639 (the 5th Model 500 built) and has been registered as
N6226B since initially Certificated on July 29th 1958.
(Damn! Forgot to send it a 40th Birthday card).
I also suggested he list the mods I know about (there may be others I'm
not aware of) in his 'Description'.
I also asked:
If the logs he has indicate when the front cabin door was installed (if
he has any logs, of course).
If he has been given any quotes for getting the aircraft repaired and
airworthy.
I noticed in its history (I have 76 records) that it was damaged on July
26th 1996 at Lafayette-Barwick Airport, Georgia.
Turns out it was struck by another Commander 500 that had suffered a
failed engine-driven hydraulic pump during taxi out.
Pressure was therefore lost as a right hand turn was in progress and
although an attempt was made to center the nosewheel and stop the
aircraft using the emergency hand-operated pump, the attempt failed and
the Commander parked next to it was struck.
Was repaired on August 14th 1996.
I have no data on the wind damage.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
In a message dated 21-Aug-07 12:39:36 Pacific Daylight Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
I was also going to suggest the nacelle 'gizmo' was an ice detection
light.
That makes me feel a wee bit more secure, Sir Barry!
Thanks for the data on this very unique airplane. Someone should
really contact the eBay seller and have them clean up their ad.
Sir Barry, would you consent to having the details in your post
uploaded to the eBay seller?
For the sake of accuracy -- not to mention the value should go up -- I
think this information should appear on eBay.
Cheers,
Wing Commander Gordon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
In a message dated 21-Aug-07 13:23:31 Pacific Daylight Time, barry.coll
man@air-britain.co.uk writes:
It is s/n 639 (the 5th Model 500 built) and has been registered as N6226B
since initially Certificated on July 29th 1958.
(Damn! Forgot to send it a 40th Birthday card).
Thanks for sending the note to the eBay seller.
"Leave it to a Brit to teach us our own history." ... Spaulding Gray
Not to worry about the birthday card.
Remember we're - GMT here in the Colonies: it's only 2007, so we won't
expect 40th birthday wishes until then.
Wing Commander Gordon
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Hi Keith,
The date 'error' was simply a test to see if anyone reads my postings.
(Gosh, that tongue really hurts against my cheek ..... and goodness me,
why does my face look so red?)
Streuth! I know time flies, but to think it was next year already
.......... unforgivable.
Now, where are my tablets.
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
In a message dated 21-Aug-07 13:23:31 Pacific Daylight Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
It is s/n 639 (the 5th Model 500 built) and has been registered as
N6226B since initially Certificated on July 29th 1958.
(Damn! Forgot to send it a 40th Birthday card).
Thanks for sending the note to the eBay seller.
"Leave it to a Brit to teach us our own history." ... Spaulding Gray
Not to worry about the birthday card.
Remember we're - GMT here in the Colonies: it's only 2007, so we won't
expect 40th birthday wishes until then.
Wing Commander Gordon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Hi Keith,
OK - so you spotted the year error. It's 2007, not 2008.
But, I caught you out - it will be its 50th next year, not 40th.
So, I was right it the first place, I did forget its 40th birthday.
Won't forget its 50th though ;-)
Now, where's my other tablets.
Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: CloudCraft(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY
In a message dated 21-Aug-07 13:23:31 Pacific Daylight Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
It is s/n 639 (the 5th Model 500 built) and has been registered as
N6226B since initially Certificated on July 29th 1958.
(Damn! Forgot to send it a 40th Birthday card).
Thanks for sending the note to the eBay seller.
"Leave it to a Brit to teach us our own history." ... Spaulding Gray
Not to worry about the birthday card.
Remember we're - GMT here in the Colonies: it's only 2007, so we won't
expect 40th birthday wishes until then.
Wing Commander Gordon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
In a message dated 21-Aug-07 13:41:02 Pacific Daylight Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
Now, where's my other tablets.
On top of Mount Sinai, I believe, Sir!
Wing Commander Gordon
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
| Subject: | prop spinner for a 680 commander |
The phone number here at my office is 310.536.0100. Be sure to tell our
receptionist that you are "from the airport" otherwise you will get the
third degree.
Regards,
Moe
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: prop spinner for a 680 commander
Moe, Before you ship the spinner, I need to make sure it fits the Metzger
STS conversion ( Three Bladed Prop. Is it the larger spinner(more than 14
inches and can the thicker one be polished up? Thanks Gil p.s. My address is
as follows: Gil Walker 6104 Belle Rive Dr. Brentwood, Tn 37027 Trl.
615-373-5703 Cell 615-310 5030. If you will e-mail me your number I will
call you and discuss. Thanks
_____
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
| From: | "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> |
Contacted the guy selling the plane. He is adamant it is a SHRIKE.
Guess there is no arguing with someone who doesn't know what they do not know.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130195#130195
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | skyhawkc-172(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
Bert,
Definately a rare & interesting bird, but not a shrike.
Are those cowl flaps, maybe due to the addition of the Rayjays...?
Can anyone get better pics & post here?
Brent - N224HA
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
>
> Contacted the guy selling the plane. He is adamant it is a SHRIKE.
>
> Guess there is no arguing with someone who doesn't know what they do not know.
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130195#130195
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bert,
Definately a rare & interesting bird, but not a shrike.
Are those cowl flaps, maybe due to the addition of the Rayjays...?
Can anyone get better pics & post here?
Brent - N224HA
ies su
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "sr14572(at)yahoo.com" <sr14572(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
and I bet he has a gold chain around his neck
Contacted the guy selling the plane. He is adamant it is a SHRIKE.
Guess there is no arguing with someone who doesn't know what they do not know.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130195#130195
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BertBerry1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AERO COMMANDER FORSALE ON EBAY |
I asked the seller for more photos, we will see what happens.
Bert
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Moe, the prop numbers are as follows; Hartzell- HC-93Z20-2A/10151-8R
Assymbly S/N 1124A
Blade Clamp S/N A18122/T511 A19407T462 A19577/T427
Executive Propeller in Van Nuys did the over haul on 1-4-05 Hope this
helps match your spinner with my props. Thanks Gil
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: prop spinner for a 680 commander |
You will have the spinner today
Please Make check out to
Mailing Address
Avtec II, Inc.
P.O. Box 2563
Titusville, FL 32781-2563
Shipping Address
Avtec II, Inc.
480 N Williams Ave
Titusville, FL 32796
Thanks
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: prop spinner for a 680 commander
Moe, the prop numbers are as follows; Hartzell- HC-93Z20-2A/10151-8R
Assymbly S/N 1124A
Blade Clamp S/N A18122/T511 A19407T462 A19577/T427
Executive Propeller in Van Nuys did the over haul on 1-4-05 Hope
this helps match your spinner with my props. Thanks Gil
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Will send check as requested. Thanks Gil
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Let me know when it arrives
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: prop spinner for a 680 commander
Will send check as requested. Thanks Gil
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: prop spinner for a 680 commander |
Will do. Thanks Gil
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM> |
anyone have a fuel shut off valve pn AV16B1159 and the O-rings S-0310-219F
x4 to install. PCAA mason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
Folks,
Don't open invitations to receive an e-card, or log on to any service you
have not specifically requested, neither emails with a PDF attachment that
is from someone you do not know. Here's the article discussing it in more
detail.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2174160,00.asp?kc=EWKNLSTE082307STR1
This particular Trojan virus morphs every couple of minutes into something
different to avoid signature detection. If you receive a suspicious email
from a familiar email address, do not open it, but rather send a new email
(don't reply or forward the suspicious email - you would just be passing the
virus on) to your acquaintance and ask to confirm whether the email was
legitimate.
The nastiness of this virus is that it gets your cooperation and consent to
opt-in to their service, which allows them to sell your email address and
bombard you with future emails. And for your effort you are rewarded with a
very nasty virus.
Thanks
Nico
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
i do
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
anyone have a fuel shut off valve pn AV16B1159 and the O-rings
S-0310-219F x4 to install. PCAA mason
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM> |
hm, tnx ur help. pls fwd two(2) each of the fuel shutoff valves part #AV1
6B1159 and required O-rings four(4) part#S-0310-219F to PRO AVIATION 221
AVIATION WAY #200 Fort Worth, Texas 76106. monday morn AM delivery. enc
lose invoice for $400.00 and I will send you a "good" check to the return a
ddress. thank you mason 817-517-4977
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Comm
ander-List: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:27:11 -0400
i do
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
anyone have a fuel shut off valve pn AV16B1159 and the O-rings S-0310-219F
x4 to install. PCAA mason
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KenWHyde(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 500A IO-550 Conversion |
Guys,
When I saw this e-mail regarding the IO-550 conversion, I thought this is
great...then I called a friend who bought a NEW Beech A36 with all the horns and
whistles about 5 years ago and I ask him about the IO-550. The man knows
engines...and he says "I It is the most disgusting, badly engineered piece of
machinery that I can remember buying. I have had to replace at least three
cylinders in 1000 hours and I am now having to replace the whole engine because
corrosion has ruined the cylinders, camshafts and followers. All of this in
spite of following Continental's book recommendations, Flight Safety's cooling
rec's. and changing the oil every 25 hours. It is the worst aircraft engine
I have ever owned and is the first that I've owned since new."
"Can you believe corrosion on an engine that averages more than 150 hrs a
year. (always hanger kept)
It never actually broke down in flight!" A friend of his has a A36 plus a
Baron...same engine..lots of problems, Baron making metal both engines. New
airplanes guys. I'm sure others have heard the war stories. Hey, don't shoot
me....I am just relaying the message.
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com |
All,
I posted some messages earlier this year about shopping for a
Commander (a newbee), and got some great comments, which I appreciate.
Now, I've found an attractive plane with the IGSO 540s on them and am
concerned about the cost of operating, maintenance and OH costs.
Can anyone comment, goods and bads?
Larry Olson
St. Pete
On Aug 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Bill Bow wrote:
> Well, it is finished. As of Monday I became an ex-Commander
> owner. I wish my 500A had been what it was represented as when I
> bought it as I would still own it today.
>
> I had written up a long diatribe, venting my anger and disgust with
> a few of those involved in the Commander community. However, I
> have decided it would be counterproductive, and nobody really gives
> a s---- anyway. I have made a lot of good friends on this list
> some that I will probably never meet. I do believe there are a lot
> more good guys here than gold diggers.
>
> I will always remember the supportive words of one person on this
> list Commander ownership is not for everybody.
>
> Well, its not for me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill Bow
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List _-
> ===========================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
Hi Larry,
Regarding the IGSO 540 Lycoming engines:
After flying about 800 hours in my 6800F(p) with these engines, here are a
few comments:
They are the most expensive six cylinder engines to overhaul that Lycoming
makes. Also, they are the shortest TBO. Figure about 1,200 hours if flown
properly. Figure between $ 42,000.00 and $ 60,000.00 each for a good major.
Do a quality overhaul with NEW cylinders. At the same time be sure to have
the gear boxes completely rebuilt. The above figures should include a gear
drive rebuild. If the engines are B1A engines with the 12 ignition coils
mounted up on top, Continental has an STC to convert them to conventional
mags. This will be a much more trouble free system, and less expensive than
replace all of the low and high tension leads on the 12 coil set up.
Lycoming no longer has the leads available.
As far as driving a plane with these engines, a very special technique must
be learned. Treat them right and they will do a good job for you. 380 HP
per wing is a wonderful thing, and the "cool factor" can't be beat. As an
example for special driving, 1. never push the propeller levers foreword
when descending to land. Your GUMPS check becomes a GUMS check. If you
push foreword on the propeller levers you will kill the planetary gears in
short order. Never idle or taxi at below 1,200 RPM (1,500 preferred). If
you do the Simmonds injection system will surge and you can hear the gear
boxes rattling. Again this destroys them. In most cases (in most planes) do
not use take off power to take off. Unless it is a short track, and the air
is thin, or you are really heavy, the top of the green arc on both the RPM
and Manifold Pressure will still give you more power than any one else has,
and will extend the life of the engines big time.
If you seek instruction (this sounds "tacky") go fly with someone who has
paid the bills out of his (or her) own pocket for about 600 or more hours.
These engines require very special handling. Given the special handling
things will be just great!
Having said all of the above, one additional comment should be made. Some
time ago, I had an engine out on take off, 500 feet agl, fairly heavy, at
night. After going to take off power on the good engine, and getting the
inoperative engine's propeller feathered, it pretty much became a non event.
With a smaller and weaker engine the results could have been quite
different.
Personally, I would not swap my IGSO 540's for all of the Continentals that
you could stack in front of me.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680F(p)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:19 PM
Subject: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
All,
I posted some messages earlier this year about shopping for a
Commander (a newbee), and got some great comments, which I appreciate.
Now, I've found an attractive plane with the IGSO 540s on them and am
concerned about the cost of operating, maintenance and OH costs.
Can anyone comment, goods and bads?
Larry Olson
St. Pete
On Aug 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Bill Bow wrote:
> Well, it is finished. As of Monday I became an ex-Commander
> owner. I wish my 500A had been what it was represented as when I
> bought it as I would still own it today.
>
> I had written up a long diatribe, venting my anger and disgust with
> a few of those involved in the Commander community. However, I
> have decided it would be counterproductive, and nobody really gives
> a s---- anyway. I have made a lot of good friends on this list
> some that I will probably never meet. I do believe there are a lot
> more good guys here than "gold diggers".
>
> I will always remember the supportive words of one person on this
> list "Commander ownership is not for everybody".
>
> Well, it's not for me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill Bow
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List _-
> ===========================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 500A IO-550 Conversion |
| From: | Bruce Campbell <brcamp(at)windows.microsoft.com> |
The IO-550 had a recall just after I bought mine. They had a number of
poorly nickelled cylinders and wanted everyone who bought one to get an
inspection, then the bad cylinders would be replaced. I never thought
that would work, since they didn't keep track of the serial numbers of
the bad cylinders, or what engines they went on. I was, BTW, highly
less than thrilled to be exposed to having my factory new engine turn
into a field overhaul to new specs at 10 hours operation time.
Continental was very clear they really didn't see that as their problem.
The actual words of the TCM rep at Oshkosh were a very snarky "If you
don't like it, sue us." It didn't come to that because the inspection
showed no problem.
I suspect he got some of those bad cylinders, and they didn't find them
in the inspection, or something similar.
Just to be clear, I don't personally recommend TCM engines, period. I
think their customer orientation and business practices are very poor
indeed. I *do* think that if you are using IO 520s that the IO 550 is a
better deal from a number of directions, for essentially the same price.
But, if you can upgrade from IO520s to current production Lycomings
(500A to 500B conversion+STC(?)) that would be better still.
Bruce
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
KenWHyde(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
Guys,
When I saw this e-mail regarding the IO-550 conversion, I thought this
is great...then I called a friend who bought a NEW Beech A36 with all
the horns and whistles about 5 years ago and I ask him about the IO-550.
The man knows engines...and he says "I It is the most disgusting, badly
engineered piece of machinery that I can remember buying. I have had to
replace at least three cylinders in 1000 hours and I am now having to
replace the whole engine because corrosion has ruined the cylinders,
camshafts and followers. All of this in spite of following Continental's
book recommendations, Flight Safety's cooling rec's. and changing the
oil every 25 hours. It is the worst aircraft engine I have ever owned
and is the first that I've owned since new."
"Can you believe corrosion on an engine that averages more than 150 hrs
a year. (always hanger kept)
It never actually broke down in flight!" A friend of his has a A36 plus
a Baron...same engine..lots of problems, Baron making metal both
engines. New airplanes guys. I'm sure others have heard the war stories.
Hey, don't shoot me....I am just relaying the message.
________________________________
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IGSO 540 Lyc ? |
Wow Moe, nicely said! I think that about covers it....
/John
Moe - Ross Racing Pistons wrote:
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Regarding the IGSO 540 Lycoming engines:
>
> After flying about 800 hours in my 6800F(p) with these engines, here are a
> few comments:
>
> They are the most expensive six cylinder engines to overhaul that Lycoming
> makes. Also, they are the shortest TBO. Figure about 1,200 hours if flown
> properly. Figure between $ 42,000.00 and $ 60,000.00 each for a good major.
> Do a quality overhaul with NEW cylinders. At the same time be sure to have
> the gear boxes completely rebuilt. The above figures should include a gear
> drive rebuild. If the engines are B1A engines with the 12 ignition coils
> mounted up on top, Continental has an STC to convert them to conventional
> mags. This will be a much more trouble free system, and less expensive than
> replace all of the low and high tension leads on the 12 coil set up.
> Lycoming no longer has the leads available.
>
> As far as driving a plane with these engines, a very special technique must
> be learned. Treat them right and they will do a good job for you. 380 HP
> per wing is a wonderful thing, and the "cool factor" can't be beat. As an
> example for special driving, 1. never push the propeller levers foreword
> when descending to land. Your GUMPS check becomes a GUMS check. If you
> push foreword on the propeller levers you will kill the planetary gears in
> short order. Never idle or taxi at below 1,200 RPM (1,500 preferred). If
> you do the Simmonds injection system will surge and you can hear the gear
> boxes rattling. Again this destroys them. In most cases (in most planes) do
> not use take off power to take off. Unless it is a short track, and the air
> is thin, or you are really heavy, the top of the green arc on both the RPM
> and Manifold Pressure will still give you more power than any one else has,
> and will extend the life of the engines big time.
>
> If you seek instruction (this sounds "tacky") go fly with someone who has
> paid the bills out of his (or her) own pocket for about 600 or more hours.
> These engines require very special handling. Given the special handling
> things will be just great!
>
> Having said all of the above, one additional comment should be made. Some
> time ago, I had an engine out on take off, 500 feet agl, fairly heavy, at
> night. After going to take off power on the good engine, and getting the
> inoperative engine's propeller feathered, it pretty much became a non event.
> With a smaller and weaker engine the results could have been quite
> different.
>
> Personally, I would not swap my IGSO 540's for all of the Continentals that
> you could stack in front of me.
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
>
>
> All,
>
> I posted some messages earlier this year about shopping for a
> Commander (a newbee), and got some great comments, which I appreciate.
>
> Now, I've found an attractive plane with the IGSO 540s on them and am
> concerned about the cost of operating, maintenance and OH costs.
>
> Can anyone comment, goods and bads?
>
>
> Larry Olson
> St. Pete
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Bill Bow wrote:
>
>
>> Well, it is finished. As of Monday I became an ex-Commander
>> owner. I wish my 500A had been what it was represented as when I
>> bought it as I would still own it today.
>>
>> I had written up a long diatribe, venting my anger and disgust with
>> a few of those involved in the Commander community. However, I
>> have decided it would be counterproductive, and nobody really gives
>> a s---- anyway. I have made a lot of good friends on this list
>> some that I will probably never meet. I do believe there are a lot
>> more good guys here than "gold diggers".
>>
>> I will always remember the supportive words of one person on this
>> list "Commander ownership is not for everybody".
>>
>> Well, it's not for me.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Bill Bow
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List _-
>> ===========================================================
>>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2481 (20070823) Information __________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IGSO 540 Lyc ? |
I agree, I do the same on my 560F and would not change them
AB
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com |
| Subject: | Re: IGSO 540 Lyc ? |
Moe,
Thanks much. What kind of performance do you plan on? Speed, fuel
consumption, range? Also, do you operate them lean of peak?
Larry Olson
St. Pete
On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Moe - Ross Racing Pistons wrote:
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Regarding the IGSO 540 Lycoming engines:
>
> After flying about 800 hours in my 6800F(p) with these engines,
> here are a
> few comments:
>
> They are the most expensive six cylinder engines to overhaul that
> Lycoming
> makes. Also, they are the shortest TBO. Figure about 1,200 hours
> if flown
> properly. Figure between $ 42,000.00 and $ 60,000.00 each for a
> good major.
> Do a quality overhaul with NEW cylinders. At the same time be sure
> to have
> the gear boxes completely rebuilt. The above figures should include
> a gear
> drive rebuild. If the engines are B1A engines with the 12 ignition
> coils
> mounted up on top, Continental has an STC to convert them to
> conventional
> mags. This will be a much more trouble free system, and less
> expensive than
> replace all of the low and high tension leads on the 12 coil set up.
> Lycoming no longer has the leads available.
>
> As far as driving a plane with these engines, a very special
> technique must
> be learned. Treat them right and they will do a good job for you.
> 380 HP
> per wing is a wonderful thing, and the "cool factor" can't be
> beat. As an
> example for special driving, 1. never push the propeller levers
> foreword
> when descending to land. Your GUMPS check becomes a GUMS check.
> If you
> push foreword on the propeller levers you will kill the planetary
> gears in
> short order. Never idle or taxi at below 1,200 RPM (1,500
> preferred). If
> you do the Simmonds injection system will surge and you can hear
> the gear
> boxes rattling. Again this destroys them. In most cases (in most
> planes) do
> not use take off power to take off. Unless it is a short track,
> and the air
> is thin, or you are really heavy, the top of the green arc on both
> the RPM
> and Manifold Pressure will still give you more power than any one
> else has,
> and will extend the life of the engines big time.
>
> If you seek instruction (this sounds "tacky") go fly with someone
> who has
> paid the bills out of his (or her) own pocket for about 600 or more
> hours.
> These engines require very special handling. Given the special
> handling
> things will be just great!
>
> Having said all of the above, one additional comment should be
> made. Some
> time ago, I had an engine out on take off, 500 feet agl, fairly
> heavy, at
> night. After going to take off power on the good engine, and
> getting the
> inoperative engine's propeller feathered, it pretty much became a
> non event.
> With a smaller and weaker engine the results could have been quite
> different.
>
> Personally, I would not swap my IGSO 540's for all of the
> Continentals that
> you could stack in front of me.
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
>
>
> All,
>
> I posted some messages earlier this year about shopping for a
> Commander (a newbee), and got some great comments, which I appreciate.
>
> Now, I've found an attractive plane with the IGSO 540s on them and am
> concerned about the cost of operating, maintenance and OH costs.
>
> Can anyone comment, goods and bads?
>
>
> Larry Olson
> St. Pete
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Bill Bow wrote:
>
>> Well, it is finished. As of Monday I became an ex-Commander
>> owner. I wish my 500A had been what it was represented as when I
>> bought it as I would still own it today.
>>
>> I had written up a long diatribe, venting my anger and disgust with
>> a few of those involved in the Commander community. However, I
>> have decided it would be counterproductive, and nobody really gives
>> a s---- anyway. I have made a lot of good friends on this list
>> some that I will probably never meet. I do believe there are a lot
>> more good guys here than "gold diggers".
>>
>> I will always remember the supportive words of one person on this
>> list "Commander ownership is not for everybody".
>>
>> Well, it's not for me.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Bill Bow
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List _-
>> ===========================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com |
| Subject: | Re: 500A IO-550 Conversion |
All,
First, I must have missed it, but what airframes is the IO550
conversion for, and who offers the STC? Thx.
Now, I must comment on the Continental vs. Lyc debate, and we could
run this forever. But, I'm running a pair of IO550Cs in our Baron
that have performed flawlessly over the last 800 hours since new.
I've also got 1000s of hours behind the 520s and the Lyc TSIO 540s.
They both have their goods and bads and issues. I've had fairly good
luck with all of them. I did have to top the Lycs but I haven't had
but a few cylinders of of the Continental 520 and 470s over ~5000
hours of operation, and most go beyond TBO. The Continentals seem to
be more fuel efficient but the Lycs seems to be stronger. Just a
feeling.... no data.
Food for thought.
Larry Olson
St. Pete
On Aug 24, 2007, at 12:51 PM, Bruce Campbell wrote:
> The IO-550 had a recall just after I bought mine. They had a
> number of poorly nickelled cylinders and wanted everyone who bought
> one to get an inspection, then the bad cylinders would be
> replaced. I never thought that would work, since they didnt keep
> track of the serial numbers of the bad cylinders, or what engines
> they went on. I was, BTW, highly less than thrilled to be exposed
> to having my factory new engine turn into a field overhaul to new
> specs at 10 hours operation time. Continental was very clear they
> really didnt see that as their problem. The actual words of the
> TCM rep at Oshkosh were a very snarky If you dont like it, sue
> us. It didnt come to that because the inspection showed no
> problem.
>
>
> I suspect he got some of those bad cylinders, and they didnt find
> them in the inspection, or something similar.
>
>
> Just to be clear, I dont personally recommend TCM engines,
> period. I think their customer orientation and business practices
> are very poor indeed. I *do* think that if you are using IO 520s
> that the IO 550 is a better deal from a number of directions, for
> essentially the same price. But, if you can upgrade from IO520s to
> current production Lycomings (500A to 500B conversion+STC(?)) that
> would be better still.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KenWHyde(at)aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:32 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500A IO-550 Conversion
>
>
> Guys,
>
>
> When I saw this e-mail regarding the IO-550 conversion, I thought
> this is great...then I called a friend who bought a NEW Beech A36
> with all the horns and whistles about 5 years ago and I ask him
> about the IO-550. The man knows engines...and he says "I It is the
> most disgusting, badly engineered piece of machinery that I can
> remember buying. I have had to replace at least three cylinders in
> 1000 hours and I am now having to replace the whole engine because
> corrosion has ruined the cylinders, camshafts and followers. All of
> this in spite of following Continental's book recommendations,
> Flight Safety's cooling rec's. and changing the oil every 25 hours.
> It is the worst aircraft engine I have ever owned and is the first
> that I've owned since new."
>
> "Can you believe corrosion on an engine that averages more than 150
> hrs a year. (always hanger kept)
>
> It never actually broke down in flight!" A friend of his has a A36
> plus a Baron...same engine..lots of problems, Baron making metal
> both engines. New airplanes guys. I'm sure others have heard the
> war stories. Hey, don't shoot me....I am just relaying the message.
>
>
> AOL.com.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://
> forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ===========================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
Larry,
I generally run full rich during climb out and decent. Generally, the plane
seems to like about 15,000 through 17,999 altitudes. After leveling off at
altitude, lean to 100'F. lean of peak. At that point the engine is running
so lean that it can't hurt its self about 60 to 65% of total power or about
240 HP per side. Don't forget to go back to full rich before descending and
be careful of the manifold pressure when descending as the pressure can come
up pretty quick as the air gets thicker and it is very easy to over boost
the engines. Also be careful on the ground when you advance the throttles,
as you can over boost the engines big time!
The Simmons injection system will keep the engines with about the right
fuel/ air mixture going up and coming down.
What type of plane are you considering?
If you would like to talk some time call me at 31o.536.0100. Be sure to
tell our receptionist that you are "from the airport" or you may get the old
"he is currently not here and we don't expect him back for a few years"
routine.
Regards,
Moe
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
Moe,
Thanks much. What kind of performance do you plan on? Speed, fuel
consumption, range? Also, do you operate them lean of peak?
Larry Olson
St. Pete
On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Moe - Ross Racing Pistons wrote:
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Regarding the IGSO 540 Lycoming engines:
>
> After flying about 800 hours in my 6800F(p) with these engines,
> here are a
> few comments:
>
> They are the most expensive six cylinder engines to overhaul that
> Lycoming
> makes. Also, they are the shortest TBO. Figure about 1,200 hours
> if flown
> properly. Figure between $ 42,000.00 and $ 60,000.00 each for a
> good major.
> Do a quality overhaul with NEW cylinders. At the same time be sure
> to have
> the gear boxes completely rebuilt. The above figures should include
> a gear
> drive rebuild. If the engines are B1A engines with the 12 ignition
> coils
> mounted up on top, Continental has an STC to convert them to
> conventional
> mags. This will be a much more trouble free system, and less
> expensive than
> replace all of the low and high tension leads on the 12 coil set up.
> Lycoming no longer has the leads available.
>
> As far as driving a plane with these engines, a very special
> technique must
> be learned. Treat them right and they will do a good job for you.
> 380 HP
> per wing is a wonderful thing, and the "cool factor" can't be
> beat. As an
> example for special driving, 1. never push the propeller levers
> foreword
> when descending to land. Your GUMPS check becomes a GUMS check.
> If you
> push foreword on the propeller levers you will kill the planetary
> gears in
> short order. Never idle or taxi at below 1,200 RPM (1,500
> preferred). If
> you do the Simmonds injection system will surge and you can hear
> the gear
> boxes rattling. Again this destroys them. In most cases (in most
> planes) do
> not use take off power to take off. Unless it is a short track,
> and the air
> is thin, or you are really heavy, the top of the green arc on both
> the RPM
> and Manifold Pressure will still give you more power than any one
> else has,
> and will extend the life of the engines big time.
>
> If you seek instruction (this sounds "tacky") go fly with someone
> who has
> paid the bills out of his (or her) own pocket for about 600 or more
> hours.
> These engines require very special handling. Given the special
> handling
> things will be just great!
>
> Having said all of the above, one additional comment should be
> made. Some
> time ago, I had an engine out on take off, 500 feet agl, fairly
> heavy, at
> night. After going to take off power on the good engine, and
> getting the
> inoperative engine's propeller feathered, it pretty much became a
> non event.
> With a smaller and weaker engine the results could have been quite
> different.
>
> Personally, I would not swap my IGSO 540's for all of the
> Continentals that
> you could stack in front of me.
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
>
>
> All,
>
> I posted some messages earlier this year about shopping for a
> Commander (a newbee), and got some great comments, which I appreciate.
>
> Now, I've found an attractive plane with the IGSO 540s on them and am
> concerned about the cost of operating, maintenance and OH costs.
>
> Can anyone comment, goods and bads?
>
>
> Larry Olson
> St. Pete
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Bill Bow wrote:
>
>> Well, it is finished. As of Monday I became an ex-Commander
>> owner. I wish my 500A had been what it was represented as when I
>> bought it as I would still own it today.
>>
>> I had written up a long diatribe, venting my anger and disgust with
>> a few of those involved in the Commander community. However, I
>> have decided it would be counterproductive, and nobody really gives
>> a s---- anyway. I have made a lot of good friends on this list
>> some that I will probably never meet. I do believe there are a lot
>> more good guys here than "gold diggers".
>>
>> I will always remember the supportive words of one person on this
>> list "Commander ownership is not for everybody".
>>
>> Well, it's not for me.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Bill Bow
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List _-
>> ===========================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> |
Moe-
Can I send our secretary's for training with yours?
Robert Randazzo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe - Ross
Racing Pistons
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:14 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
Larry,
I generally run full rich during climb out and decent. Generally, the plane
seems to like about 15,000 through 17,999 altitudes. After leveling off at
altitude, lean to 100'F. lean of peak. At that point the engine is running
so lean that it can't hurt its self about 60 to 65% of total power or about
240 HP per side. Don't forget to go back to full rich before descending and
be careful of the manifold pressure when descending as the pressure can come
up pretty quick as the air gets thicker and it is very easy to over boost
the engines. Also be careful on the ground when you advance the throttles,
as you can over boost the engines big time!
The Simmons injection system will keep the engines with about the right
fuel/ air mixture going up and coming down.
What type of plane are you considering?
If you would like to talk some time call me at 31o.536.0100. Be sure to
tell our receptionist that you are "from the airport" or you may get the old
"he is currently not here and we don't expect him back for a few years"
routine.
Regards,
Moe
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
Moe,
Thanks much. What kind of performance do you plan on? Speed, fuel
consumption, range? Also, do you operate them lean of peak?
Larry Olson
St. Pete
On Aug 24, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Moe - Ross Racing Pistons wrote:
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Regarding the IGSO 540 Lycoming engines:
>
> After flying about 800 hours in my 6800F(p) with these engines,
> here are a
> few comments:
>
> They are the most expensive six cylinder engines to overhaul that
> Lycoming
> makes. Also, they are the shortest TBO. Figure about 1,200 hours
> if flown
> properly. Figure between $ 42,000.00 and $ 60,000.00 each for a
> good major.
> Do a quality overhaul with NEW cylinders. At the same time be sure
> to have
> the gear boxes completely rebuilt. The above figures should include
> a gear
> drive rebuild. If the engines are B1A engines with the 12 ignition
> coils
> mounted up on top, Continental has an STC to convert them to
> conventional
> mags. This will be a much more trouble free system, and less
> expensive than
> replace all of the low and high tension leads on the 12 coil set up.
> Lycoming no longer has the leads available.
>
> As far as driving a plane with these engines, a very special
> technique must
> be learned. Treat them right and they will do a good job for you.
> 380 HP
> per wing is a wonderful thing, and the "cool factor" can't be
> beat. As an
> example for special driving, 1. never push the propeller levers
> foreword
> when descending to land. Your GUMPS check becomes a GUMS check.
> If you
> push foreword on the propeller levers you will kill the planetary
> gears in
> short order. Never idle or taxi at below 1,200 RPM (1,500
> preferred). If
> you do the Simmonds injection system will surge and you can hear
> the gear
> boxes rattling. Again this destroys them. In most cases (in most
> planes) do
> not use take off power to take off. Unless it is a short track,
> and the air
> is thin, or you are really heavy, the top of the green arc on both
> the RPM
> and Manifold Pressure will still give you more power than any one
> else has,
> and will extend the life of the engines big time.
>
> If you seek instruction (this sounds "tacky") go fly with someone
> who has
> paid the bills out of his (or her) own pocket for about 600 or more
> hours.
> These engines require very special handling. Given the special
> handling
> things will be just great!
>
> Having said all of the above, one additional comment should be
> made. Some
> time ago, I had an engine out on take off, 500 feet agl, fairly
> heavy, at
> night. After going to take off power on the good engine, and
> getting the
> inoperative engine's propeller feathered, it pretty much became a
> non event.
> With a smaller and weaker engine the results could have been quite
> different.
>
> Personally, I would not swap my IGSO 540's for all of the
> Continentals that
> you could stack in front of me.
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
>
>
> All,
>
> I posted some messages earlier this year about shopping for a
> Commander (a newbee), and got some great comments, which I appreciate.
>
> Now, I've found an attractive plane with the IGSO 540s on them and am
> concerned about the cost of operating, maintenance and OH costs.
>
> Can anyone comment, goods and bads?
>
>
> Larry Olson
> St. Pete
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Bill Bow wrote:
>
>> Well, it is finished. As of Monday I became an ex-Commander
>> owner. I wish my 500A had been what it was represented as when I
>> bought it as I would still own it today.
>>
>> I had written up a long diatribe, venting my anger and disgust with
>> a few of those involved in the Commander community. However, I
>> have decided it would be counterproductive, and nobody really gives
>> a s---- anyway. I have made a lot of good friends on this list
>> some that I will probably never meet. I do believe there are a lot
>> more good guys here than "gold diggers".
>>
>> I will always remember the supportive words of one person on this
>> list "Commander ownership is not for everybody".
>>
>> Well, it's not for me.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Bill Bow
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List _-
>> ===========================================================
>
>
__________ NOD32 2483 (20070824) Information __________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: mander-List: |
Shippe today for monday $ 449.75
i put a shipping lable in the packing list pouch to return the old
valves
Thanks ( i will get seat bolts tommorow
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, tnx ur help. pls fwd two(2) each of the fuel shutoff valves part
#AV16B1159 and required O-rings four(4) part#S-0310-219F to PRO
AVIATION 221 AVIATION WAY #200
Fort Worth, Texas 76106. monday morn AM delivery. enclose invoice
for $400.00 and I will send you a "good" check to the return address.
thank you mason 817-517-4977
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.net
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List:
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:27:11 -0400
i do
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
anyone have a fuel shut off valve pn AV16B1159 and the O-rings
S-0310-219F x4 to install. PCAA mason
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: IGSO 540 Lyc ? |
Isn't this email net terrific? You can actually get information built upon
experience here.
Thanks, Moe.
Wing Commander Gordon
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
Wing Commander Gordon,
After reading your words of wit and wisdom for quite some time now, it
seemed only fitting that I should finally write something other than my
usual request for free technical information.
Best regards,
Moe
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
Isn't this email net terrific? You can actually get information built upon
experience here.
Thanks, Moe.
Wing Commander Gordon
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | My new partner Ken |
| From: | "brent-mueller(at)comcast.net" <aerocommander-560e(at)comcast.net> |
Hello everyone,
Just wanted all to know, I have a new partner in the AC-560E. I am sure he will
be surfing thru this good site & asking questions. Please give him a warm welcome.
His name is Ken.
Have a great weekend.
Brent - N224HA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130911#130911
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IGSO 540 Lyc ? |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
REALLY WELL SAID, GREAT ADVICE.? THANKS MOE!!!? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons <moe(at)rosspistons.com>
Sent: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 7:41 am
Subject: RE: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
Hi Larry,
Regarding the IGSO 540 Lycoming engines:
After flying about 800 hours in my 6800F(p) with these engines, here are a
few comments:
They are the most expensive six cylinder engines to overhaul that Lycoming
makes. Also, they are the shortest TBO. Figure about 1,200 hours if flown
properly. Figure between $ 42,000.00 and $ 60,000.00 each for a good major.
Do a quality overhaul with NEW cylinders. At the same time be sure to have
the gear boxes completely rebuilt. The above figures should include a gear
drive rebuild. If the engines are B1A engines with the 12 ignition coils
mounted up on top, Continental has an STC to convert them to conventional
mags. This will be a much more trouble free system, and less expensive than
replace all of the low and high tension leads on the 12 coil set up.
Lycoming no longer has the leads available.
As far as driving a plane with these engines, a very special technique must
be learned. Treat them right and they will do a good job for you. 380 HP
per wing is a wonderful thing, and the "cool factor" can't be beat. As an
example for special driving, 1. never push the propeller levers foreword
when descending to land. Your GUMPS check becomes a GUMS check. If you
push foreword on the propeller levers you will kill the planetary gears in
short order. Never idle or taxi at below 1,200 RPM (1,500 preferred). If
you do the Simmonds injection system will surge and you can hear the gear
boxes rattling. Again this destroys them. In most cases (in most planes) do
not use take off power to take off. Unless it is a short track, and the air
is thin, or you are really heavy, the top of the green arc on both the RPM
and Manifold Pressure will still give you more power than any one else has,
and will extend the life of the engines big time.
If you seek instruction (this sounds "tacky") go fly with someone who has
paid the bills out of his (or her) own pocket for about 600 or more hours.
These engines require very special handling. Given the special handling
things will be just great!
Having said all of the above, one additional comment should be made. Some
time ago, I had an engine out on take off, 500 feet agl, fairly heavy, at
night. After going to take off power on the good engine, and getting the
inoperative engine's propeller feathered, it pretty much became a non event.
With a smaller and weaker engine the results could have been quite
different.
Personally, I would not swap my IGSO 540's for all of the Continentals that
you could stack in front of me.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680F(p)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:19 PM
Subject: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
All,
I posted some messages earlier this year about shopping for a
Commander (a newbee), and got some great comments, which I appreciate.
Now, I've found an attractive plane with the IGSO 540s on them and am
concerned about the cost of operating, maintenance and OH costs.
Can anyone comment, goods and bads?
Larry Olson
St. Pete
On Aug 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Bill Bow wrote:
> Well, it is finished. As of Monday I became an ex-Commander
> owner. I wish my 500A had been what it was represented as when I
> bought it as I would still own it today.
>
> I had written up a long diatribe, venting my anger and disgust with
> a few of those involved in the Commander community. However, I
> have decided it would be counterproductive, and nobody really gives
> a s---- anyway. I have made a lot of good friends on this list
> some that I will probably never meet. I do believe there are a lot
> more good guys here than "gold diggers".
>
> I will always remember the supportive words of one person on this
> list "Commander ownership is not for everybody".
>
> Well, it's not for me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill Bow
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List _-
> ===========================================================
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com> |
Nico, Wing Commander Gordon, Bill and everyone,=0A I truly regret that I
will not be able as I previously stated to attend the fly-in. I hope I hav
e not inconvenienced anyone who had planned to catch a ride with me. I am a
corporate pilot and have been assigned a trip that is inescapable on those
dates. I sure was looking forward to meeting all of you!=0AHave a great ti
me and best regards,=0A =0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A =0A__
___________________________________________________________________________
_______=0ATake the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocke
t: mail, news, photos & more. =0Ahttp://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 24-Aug-07 21:03:12 Pacific Daylight Time,
aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com writes:
Nico, Wing Commander Gordon, Bill and everyone,
I truly regret that I will not be able as I previously stated to attend
the fly-in. I hope I have not inconvenienced anyone who had planned to catch a
ride with me. I am a corporate pilot and have been assigned a trip that is
inescapable on those dates. I sure was looking forward to meeting all of you!
Exact same problem for me.
Wing Commander Gordon
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Girod" <DonGirod(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IGSO 540 Lyc ? |
Moe;
Sounds like a man after my own heart. 'Tacky' advice or not, I agree! I
do believe in 'babying' my Commander and it's engines. Believe if I take
care of them, they will take care of me. And nobody looks after your money
like you do. Totally opposite of "drive it like you stole it". My 560E
turned FIFTY this year, so need to treat it with lots of TLC.
Even when it wasn't mine, I tried to treat them gently, think that has
something to do with why in 20K hrs flying I have never lost an engine or
had an emergency. Always saved them for the simulator. Tomorrow that could
all change, but am a big believer in a gentle hand.
Don
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Regarding the IGSO 540 Lycoming engines:
>
> After flying about 800 hours in my 6800F(p) with these engines, here are a
> few comments:
>
> They are the most expensive six cylinder engines to overhaul that Lycoming
> makes. Also, they are the shortest TBO. Figure about 1,200 hours if flown
> properly. Figure between $ 42,000.00 and $ 60,000.00 each for a good
> major.
> Do a quality overhaul with NEW cylinders. At the same time be sure to
> have
> the gear boxes completely rebuilt. The above figures should include a gear
> drive rebuild. If the engines are B1A engines with the 12 ignition coils
> mounted up on top, Continental has an STC to convert them to conventional
> mags. This will be a much more trouble free system, and less expensive
> than
> replace all of the low and high tension leads on the 12 coil set up.
> Lycoming no longer has the leads available.
>
> As far as driving a plane with these engines, a very special technique
> must
> be learned. Treat them right and they will do a good job for you. 380 HP
> per wing is a wonderful thing, and the "cool factor" can't be beat. As an
> example for special driving, 1. never push the propeller levers foreword
> when descending to land. Your GUMPS check becomes a GUMS check. If you
> push foreword on the propeller levers you will kill the planetary gears in
> short order. Never idle or taxi at below 1,200 RPM (1,500 preferred). If
> you do the Simmonds injection system will surge and you can hear the gear
> boxes rattling. Again this destroys them. In most cases (in most planes)
> do
> not use take off power to take off. Unless it is a short track, and the
> air
> is thin, or you are really heavy, the top of the green arc on both the RPM
> and Manifold Pressure will still give you more power than any one else
> has,
> and will extend the life of the engines big time.
>
> If you seek instruction (this sounds "tacky") go fly with someone who has
> paid the bills out of his (or her) own pocket for about 600 or more hours.
> These engines require very special handling. Given the special handling
> things will be just great!
>
> Having said all of the above, one additional comment should be made. Some
> time ago, I had an engine out on take off, 500 feet agl, fairly heavy, at
> night. After going to take off power on the good engine, and getting the
> inoperative engine's propeller feathered, it pretty much became a non
> event.
> With a smaller and weaker engine the results could have been quite
> different.
>
> Personally, I would not swap my IGSO 540's for all of the Continentals
> that
> you could stack in front of me.
>
> Moe Mills
> N680RR
> 680F(p)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> asgroup(at)tampabay.rr.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:19 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: IGSO 540 Lyc ?
>
>
> All,
>
> I posted some messages earlier this year about shopping for a
> Commander (a newbee), and got some great comments, which I appreciate.
>
> Now, I've found an attractive plane with the IGSO 540s on them and am
> concerned about the cost of operating, maintenance and OH costs.
>
> Can anyone comment, goods and bads?
>
>
> Larry Olson
> St. Pete
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Bill Bow wrote:
>
>> Well, it is finished. As of Monday I became an ex-Commander
>> owner. I wish my 500A had been what it was represented as when I
>> bought it as I would still own it today.
>>
>> I had written up a long diatribe, venting my anger and disgust with
>> a few of those involved in the Commander community. However, I
>> have decided it would be counterproductive, and nobody really gives
>> a s---- anyway. I have made a lot of good friends on this list
>> some that I will probably never meet. I do believe there are a lot
>> more good guys here than "gold diggers".
>>
>> I will always remember the supportive words of one person on this
>> list "Commander ownership is not for everybody".
>>
>> Well, it's not for me.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Bill Bow
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List _-
>> ===========================================================
>
>
> --
> 4:04 PM
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | My new partner Ken |
Good Luck.
bilbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
brent-mueller(at)comcast.net
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 11:01 PM
Subject: Commander-List: My new partner Ken
Hello everyone,
Just wanted all to know, I have a new partner in the AC-560E. I am sure he
will be surfing thru this good site & asking questions. Please give him a
warm welcome. His name is Ken.
Have a great weekend.
Brent - N224HA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130911#130911
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | My new partner Ken |
Welcome Ken!
bilbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
brent-mueller(at)comcast.net
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 11:01 PM
Subject: Commander-List: My new partner Ken
Hello everyone,
Just wanted all to know, I have a new partner in the AC-560E. I am sure he
will be surfing thru this good site & asking questions. Please give him a
warm welcome. His name is Ken.
Have a great weekend.
Brent - N224HA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130911#130911
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 500A IO-550 Conversion |
Good Evening Ken,
Please do not consider this as being any effort to shoot the messenger!
However, I very respectfully disagree with the gentleman's impression of the
engine. I think it is far and away the best effort Continental has produced
in the last fifty years.
Having said that, I also feel Continental has suffered greatly from poor
quality control of their products during the past fifteen years or so. The move
from Michigan to Mobile resulted in the loss of a dedicated work force that
has been hard to replace.
If you have a chance to discuss this with the Continental management, they
will agree that there have been some problems, but they are confident those
bad times are behind them.
There was a rash of cylinder problems in the nineties that most folks will
agree was due to a practice of running the engine not rich enough when at high
power settings.
The 550 is capable of putting out a lot of power and it takes a lot of fuel
to keep it cool at those high power settings.
I like to set up a freshly majored 550 at around thirty-one to thirty-two
GPH for the initial takeoff until such time as the fuel balance can be
determined. Once it has been assured that the distribution between the cylinders
is
reasonable, I like to see about twenty-nine GPH for a sea level, standard
conditions, takeoff.
Unfortunately, most mechanics seem hesitant to push that much fuel through
the engine.
Rather than get into an argument as to how much fuel is needed to develop
that sort of power, may I tell of my experience with the engine? I had one
installed in my Bonanza at the height of Continental's problem time frame. It
was
in 1996.
It was without doubt the best money I have ever spent on any airplane. The
increase in performance was a LOT more than I had anticipated. That engine
currently is ready to be replaced and it has never had any jug removed. It has
suffered from the Continental valve leakage problems during it's regular
compression check, but by following the Continental recommendations on using a
calibrated orifice and checking low cylinders with a borescope, the engine has
easily made it to TBO. I currently have another 550 being built up by a
boutique engine shop to replace the factory remanufactured one that I first had
installed.
Since that time, two of our sons have purchased 550s that were rebuilt by a
custom overhaul shop and both those engines have performed marvelously
without suffering the low compression readings common with those 1990 through
1999
factory cylinders. It is my understanding that Continental had gone to the
practice of using pre fit valves instead of seating them individually as had
been done in the past. While that led to bad compression checks, it did not
seem to cause any serious leakage under actual operating conditions. That is
why Continental developed their special Service Bulletin which includes using
the calibrated orifice and the borescope to ascertain the suitability of
continued operation of the cylinders.
There is no doubt that I can find you plenty of folks who will tell you that
the 550 is no good. I can easily find you another couple of hundred users
who think as I do.
There is also no doubt that the engine does need to be set up properly.
Most of the earlier Bonanza installations used an Altitude Compensating Fuel
Pump. That system works great, but it takes a bit more care to be set up
properly. Beech has quit using it.
A few old line mechanics don't care to learn how to do the setup and that
can cause problems. Continental has a very complete set of instructions and if
they are followed by the operator, the Altitude Compensating Pump works great.
No need to lean on takeoff at higher elevations and altitude changes can be
made without the necessity of constant adjustment.
We who have those pumps and have had then set up as Continental has advised
have had great results.
This has been a bit if a rambling discourse and for that I am sorry, but as
in so many cases of opinions, it is hard to know where to start. As I said
earlier, I consider it to be a great engine. It is light and powerful. When the
fuel control is setup the way the manufacturer suggests, it works
wonderfully. Those folks who chose to run high powers with lean mixtures have
encountered problems, but those of us who have chosen to operate them within the
design parameters have had excellent performance. In fact, we who operate them
at
lower powers on the lean side of peak EGT have had exceptional service from
the engines. I would be happy to discuss specifics with anyone who has the
time and the data to share.
The IO-550-B is a marvelous engine!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 8/23/2007 8:33:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
KenWHyde(at)aol.com writes:
Guys,
When I saw this e-mail regarding the IO-550 conversion, I thought this is
great...then I called a friend who bought a NEW Beech A36 with all the horns
and whistles about 5 years ago and I ask him about the IO-550. The man knows
engines...and he says "I It is the most disgusting, badly engineered piece of
machinery that I can remember buying. I have had to replace at least three
cylinders in 1000 hours and I am now having to replace the whole engine because
corrosion has ruined the cylinders, camshafts and followers. All of this in
spite of following Continental's book recommendations, Flight Safety's cooling
rec's. and changing the oil every 25 hours. It is the worst aircraft engine
I have ever owned and is the first that I've owned since new."
"Can you believe corrosion on an engine that averages more than 150 hrs a
year. (always hanger kept)
It never actually broke down in flight!" A friend of his has a A36 plus a
Baron...same engine..lots of problems, Baron making metal both engines. New
airplanes guys. I'm sure others have heard the war stories. Hey, don't shoot
me....I am just relaying the message.
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM> |
hm, parts arrived this am. there is no paperwork with them? we discussed
them being "yellow tagged"? i will advise what i am doing. tnx ur hlp. ma
son
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Comm
ander-List:Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:12:54 -0400
Shippe today for monday $ 449.75
i put a shipping lable in the packing list pouch to return the old valves
Thanks ( i will get seat bolts tommorow
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, tnx ur help. pls fwd two(2) each of the fuel shutoff valves part #AV1
6B1159 and required O-rings four(4) part#S-0310-219F to PRO AVIATION 221
AVIATION WAY #200 Fort Worth, Texas 76106. monday morn AM delivery. enc
lose invoice for $400.00 and I will send you a "good" check to the return a
ddress. thank you mason 817-517-4977
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Comm
ander-List: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:27:11 -0400
i do
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
anyone have a fuel shut off valve pn AV16B1159 and the O-rings S-0310-219F
x4 to install. PCAA mason
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: mander-List: |
If you dont want them send them back COD on Freight.
Thanks
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, parts arrived this am. there is no paperwork with them? we
discussed them being "yellow tagged"? i will advise what i am doing.
tnx ur hlp. mason
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.net
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List:
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:12:54 -0400
Shippe today for monday $ 449.75
i put a shipping lable in the packing list pouch to return the old
valves
Thanks ( i will get seat bolts tommorow
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, tnx ur help. pls fwd two(2) each of the fuel shutoff valves
part #AV16B1159 and required O-rings four(4) part#S-0310-219F to PRO
AVIATION 221 AVIATION WAY #200
Fort Worth, Texas 76106. monday morn AM delivery. enclose
invoice for $400.00 and I will send you a "good" check to the return
address. thank you mason 817-517-4977
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.net
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List:
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:27:11 -0400
i do
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
anyone have a fuel shut off valve pn AV16B1159 and the O-rings
S-0310-219F x4 to install. PCAA mason
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Weird 747 shadow |
Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi All,
Can I just check something with you all. This is for a Model 500B
specifically, but I assume the scenario covers other Models.
After landing, with indication that all three gears are down-and-locked,
the right-hand gear retracts.
It seems fairly 'common' that this is usually because the PiC has
selected the gear-up switch instead of the flaps-up switch.
If so, is it the right-hand gear that actuates first?
Presumably, if the PiC realises his error in time, he can prevent the
left-hand gear actuating?
Best Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Main gear [bcc][faked-from][html-rem] |
| From: | "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com> |
This is puzzle that is going to have an interesting answer. I'm
following a rabbit's warren that leads me to believe that the hydraulic
pumps at idle can't pump enough volume at idle to pull both legs over
center simultaneously and that there is something about the right leg
(placement of the cylinder?) that makes the right leg easier to pull
over center than the left leg. Once it comes over center, the
resistance is a lot lower on the right side, so the left leg won't come
over center until the right leg fully retracts.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry
Collman
Sent: Tue 8/28/2007 7:50 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Main gear [bcc][faked-from][html-rem]
Hi All,
Can I just check something with you all. This is for a Model 500B
specifically, but I assume the scenario covers other Models.
After landing, with indication that all three gears are down-and-locked,
the right-hand gear retracts.
It seems fairly 'common' that this is usually because the PiC has
selected the gear-up switch instead of the flaps-up switch.
If so, is it the right-hand gear that actuates first?
Presumably, if the PiC realises his error in time, he can prevent the
left-hand gear actuating?
Best Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Main gear [bcc][faked-from][html-rem] |
This is a question I hope I NEVER find the answer to on my 500B. That
being said, I've heard of gear retracts happening on the ground. I'm
certain that ONE engine by itself makes enough pressure to retract the
gear at idle, as even during warmup at low RPM, my hydraulic system is
steady at 1,000 PSI regardless of steering or flap actuation.
As far as right vs. left, I don't know the answer to that one...
/J
Brock Lorber wrote:
> This is puzzle that is going to have an interesting answer. I'm following a
rabbit's warren that leads me to believe that the hydraulic pumps at idle can't
pump enough volume at idle to pull both legs over center simultaneously and
that there is something about the right leg (placement of the cylinder?) that
makes the right leg easier to pull over center than the left leg. Once it comes
over center, the resistance is a lot lower on the right side, so the left
leg won't come over center until the right leg fully retracts.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry Collman
> Sent: Tue 8/28/2007 7:50 AM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Commander-List: Main gear [bcc][faked-from][html-rem]
>
> Hi All,
>
> Can I just check something with you all. This is for a Model 500B specifically,
but I assume the scenario covers other Models.
>
> After landing, with indication that all three gears are down-and-locked, the
right-hand gear retracts.
> It seems fairly 'common' that this is usually because the PiC has selected the
gear-up switch instead of the flaps-up switch.
>
> If so, is it the right-hand gear that actuates first?
>
> Presumably, if the PiC realises his error in time, he can prevent the left-hand
gear actuating?
>
> Best Regards,
> Barry
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weird 747 shadow |
Nico,
All I see there is a location between Pretoria and Johannesburg, of a
house with a pool.....no shadow on my version.
/J
nico css wrote:
>
> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Weird 747 shadow |
I see the shadow you're talking about but haven't an explanation for it. It
is a 747-400 in a left turn.
bilbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
Nico,
All I see there is a location between Pretoria and Johannesburg, of a
house with a pool.....no shadow on my version.
/J
nico css wrote:
>
> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weird 747 shadow |
I have a 'possible' explanation for this. The Google Earth imagery are not
conventional photos, but 'orthophotos'. That is the image is composed of
zillions of photographs that are mosaicked together, and processed to
correct them for tip and tilt of the camera, and to correct the scale of
images versus the variations in height of the land. Lots of other stuff gets
done to the images.....
I'm actually processing an orthophoto right now at work. (I'm hard at work,
honest.)
The ortho images have a lot of blending and processing done to them to have
them look any good across seams, and to correct for vignetting and uneven
tone across them. Its quite a trick to get all these images to look any good
all stuck together at once.
It is possible that the 'weirdness' is due to a computer algorithm doing its
best to make sense of this little image patch, and lighten up a dark area,
and darken up a bright area.
Or it's something else.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
>
> I see the shadow you're talking about but haven't an explanation for it.
> It
> is a 747-400 in a left turn.
>
> bilbo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
> Vormbaum
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:15 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
>
>
> Nico,
>
> All I see there is a location between Pretoria and Johannesburg, of a
> house with a pool.....no shadow on my version.
>
> /J
>
> nico css wrote:
>>
>> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mike floyd" <floydgm(at)hotmail.com> |
I have seen two times where it was the left main gear which had collapsed.
One was a failure of the retract cylinder clevis in the top of the strut
housing. And the other never did have a reasonable explaination.
Mike
_________________________________________________________________
Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes!
http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Weird 747 shadow |
John,
Did you copy and paste the coordinates into google earth? It should be on
the edge of a suburban neighborhood.
Nico
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
Nico,
All I see there is a location between Pretoria and Johannesburg, of a
house with a pool.....no shadow on my version.
/J
nico css wrote:
>
> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Weird 747 shadow |
Thanks, Steve. That makes the most sense.
Nico
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at
Col-East
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
I have a 'possible' explanation for this. The Google Earth imagery are not
conventional photos, but 'orthophotos'. That is the image is composed of
zillions of photographs that are mosaicked together, and processed to
correct them for tip and tilt of the camera, and to correct the scale of
images versus the variations in height of the land. Lots of other stuff gets
done to the images.....
I'm actually processing an orthophoto right now at work. (I'm hard at work,
honest.)
The ortho images have a lot of blending and processing done to them to have
them look any good across seams, and to correct for vignetting and uneven
tone across them. Its quite a trick to get all these images to look any good
all stuck together at once.
It is possible that the 'weirdness' is due to a computer algorithm doing its
best to make sense of this little image patch, and lighten up a dark area,
and darken up a bright area.
Or it's something else.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
>
> I see the shadow you're talking about but haven't an explanation for it.
> It
> is a 747-400 in a left turn.
>
> bilbo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
> Vormbaum
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:15 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
>
>
> Nico,
>
> All I see there is a location between Pretoria and Johannesburg, of a
> house with a pool.....no shadow on my version.
>
> /J
>
> nico css wrote:
>>
>> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weird 747 shadow |
That time it worked....and that is quite the funky shadow/airplane.
nico css wrote:
>
> John,
> Did you copy and paste the coordinates into google earth? It should be on
> the edge of a suburban neighborhood.
> Nico
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
> Vormbaum
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:15 AM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
>
>
> Nico,
>
> All I see there is a location between Pretoria and Johannesburg, of a
> house with a pool.....no shadow on my version.
>
> /J
>
> nico css wrote:
>
>> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________
>>
>>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weird 747 shadow |
> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
Yes, very interesting - note that the ghosted image is above the 'clear'
747 - I wonder if it has something to do with a second photo taken
immediately after the first; the 747 having moved on since the first?
I'm sure there's a better explanation...
God bless,
Andrew
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Weird 747 shadow |
Hi Andrew.
I don't think so, because the 747 would have to have drifted south without
any forward movement. The shadows of the surrounding structures indicate
that it's early morning, so in that respect the blue shadow is in the right
place. What is a bit off, I would say, is that the shadow indicates that the
sun is slightly south of the 747, which is impossible seeing that
Johannesburg is 26 deg south and the sun never gets further south than 23.5
deg. However, if the shadow was moved due to manipulation of the satellite
photographs, then it might not show where it actually was.
Steve gave an excellent explanation: satellite photos are not regular photos
but orthophotos, which are programmatically manipulated to make the
individual satellite images fit seamlessly in one image, and perhaps some
shift could have changed the color of the shadow. Steve I apologize if my
paraphrasing what you said has lost the message.
Who knows, but it is very interesting.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
andrew.bridget(at)telus.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
Yes, very interesting - note that the ghosted image is above the 'clear' 747
- I wonder if it has something to do with a second photo taken immediately
after the first; the 747 having moved on since the first? I'm sure there's a
better explanation...
God bless,
Andrew
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weird 747 shadow |
Hi, yes, Nico,I think Steve is likely right; I only read his post after
I responded. Talk about opening my yap before I have all the info :-)
Found some other aircraft with ghosted shadows. No I didn't scan Google
Earth ... well I did look at O'Hare to see if there were any on
approach/climbout, and at Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary, and ... but then
I gave up and cheated by looking at
http://www.gearthhacks.com/dlcat24/Aircraft-in-flight.htm
Steve, given this, is it not possible that two photos are taken and then
overlaid to give the 3D effect when one tilts the earth to a more
horizontal plane? (pun unintended) This would explain the aircraft
"moving on". In each of the ghosted shadows the ghost aircraft appears
to be on (or slightly higher) than the clear aircraft. However, on a
slower aircraft (like the helicopter, or aircraft on finals) there isn't
any ghosting.This would add to the theory that the aircraft has moved on
- only fast aircraft appear to be ghosted.
Blessings
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
Hi Andrew.
I don't think so, because the 747 would have to have drifted south
without any forward movement. The shadows of the surrounding structures
indicate that it's early morning, so in that respect the blue shadow is
in the right place. What is a bit off, I would say, is that the shadow
indicates that the sun is slightly south of the 747, which is impossible
seeing that Johannesburg is 26 deg south and the sun never gets further
south than 23.5 deg. However, if the shadow was moved due to
manipulation of the satellite photographs, then it might not show where
it actually was.
Steve gave an excellent explanation: satellite photos are not regular
photos but orthophotos, which are programmatically manipulated to make
the individual satellite images fit seamlessly in one image, and perhaps
some shift could have changed the color of the shadow. Steve I
apologize if my paraphrasing what you said has lost the message.
Who knows, but it is very interesting.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
andrew.bridget(at)telus.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:05 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
Yes, very interesting - note that the ghosted image is above the
'clear' 747 - I wonder if it has something to do with a second photo
taken immediately after the first; the 747 having moved on since the
first? I'm sure there's a better explanation...
God bless,
Andrew
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "brent-mueller(at)comcast.net" <aerocommander-560e(at)comcast.net> |
-Greetings-
Our valve covers leak some.
what is the very best solution to oil leaking valve covers.
I was told silicon ones are the ones to use, we have cork now.
If cork expands with the warm oil then flattens when not run for a bit, whats th
advantage over silcone?
Take Care,
Brent
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131505#131505
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve @ Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weird 747 shadow |
Hi Andrew,
It gets a little complicated......
The 3D effect is used by many companies to create the terrain model used
by so many applications. It could be flight simulators, or GPS units
with ground proximity in them.... What Google is doing is using that
model to 'drape' their imagery over it to give you that 3D effect.
I'll take a look at those examples when I am back at a fast modem, but I
have another 'possible' explanation for what you are seeing.
In order for an orthophoto to be scaled properly the original photo has
to stretched and shrunk to fit the terrain. Think of the left side of a
photo as having a mountain, and the right side with a valley. The two
sides of one photo will have different scales...... This effect is
further complicated by the fact that only in the center of the image is
the camera looking directly down, vertically. For most of the image, the
subject is at more and more of an angle off center.
This 'looking off center' is not an insolvable problem as long as the
object is draped onto the terrain model. But any object that stands
proud from the terrain model is going to be put in the wrong place. The
higher something is, and the further off perpendicular from under the
camera, the more horizontal error will be introduced when the object is
forced down to the terrain model.
So tall buildings will appear misplaced. Aircraft could appear a great
distance from where they should have been on the earth directly beneath
them.....
The simple answer is; every image pixel needs a proper elevation in
order to be placed accurately in horizontal.
As for multiple images causing ortho-weirdness, it does all the time.
Things like a baseball field with way too many players and a bunch of
other errors, some of them quite funny......
David Owens, on this list, I'm sure takes quite a lot of imagery
destined for ortho photos also, with their Colemill 500A.....
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: andrew.bridget(at)telus.net
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
Hi, yes, Nico,I think Steve is likely right; I only read his post
after I responded. Talk about opening my yap before I have all the info
:-)
Found some other aircraft with ghosted shadows. No I didn't scan
Google Earth ... well I did look at O'Hare to see if there were any on
approach/climbout, and at Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary, and ... but then
I gave up and cheated by looking at
http://www.gearthhacks.com/dlcat24/Aircraft-in-flight.htm
Steve, given this, is it not possible that two photos are taken and
then overlaid to give the 3D effect when one tilts the earth to a more
horizontal plane? (pun unintended) This would explain the aircraft
"moving on". In each of the ghosted shadows the ghost aircraft appears
to be on (or slightly higher) than the clear aircraft. However, on a
slower aircraft (like the helicopter, or aircraft on finals) there isn't
any ghosting.This would add to the theory that the aircraft has moved on
- only fast aircraft appear to be ghosted.
Blessings
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
Hi Andrew.
I don't think so, because the 747 would have to have drifted south
without any forward movement. The shadows of the surrounding structures
indicate that it's early morning, so in that respect the blue shadow is
in the right place. What is a bit off, I would say, is that the shadow
indicates that the sun is slightly south of the 747, which is impossible
seeing that Johannesburg is 26 deg south and the sun never gets further
south than 23.5 deg. However, if the shadow was moved due to
manipulation of the satellite photographs, then it might not show where
it actually was.
Steve gave an excellent explanation: satellite photos are not
regular photos but orthophotos, which are programmatically manipulated
to make the individual satellite images fit seamlessly in one image, and
perhaps some shift could have changed the color of the shadow. Steve I
apologize if my paraphrasing what you said has lost the message.
Who knows, but it is very interesting.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
andrew.bridget(at)telus.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:05 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
Yes, very interesting - note that the ghosted image is above the
'clear' 747 - I wonder if it has something to do with a second photo
taken immediately after the first; the 747 having moved on since the
first? I'm sure there's a better explanation...
God bless,
Andrew
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Oil Leak [bcc][faked-from] |
| From: | "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com> |
The very best solution to oil leaking valve covers is not over-torquing
the screws that hold them on. When the screws are over-torqued, they
pucker the thin metal and ruin the seal with any gaskets.
Keep the cork gaskets and get new valve covers. Torque the screws (with
star washers) exactly as published in the overhaul manual (~ 20 inch
pounds, barely more than snug).
Brock
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of
brent-mueller(at)comcast.net
Sent: Tue 8/28/2007 9:21 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Oil Leak [bcc][faked-from]
-Greetings-
Our valve covers leak some.
what is the very best solution to oil leaking valve covers.
I was told silicon ones are the ones to use, we have cork now.
If cork expands with the warm oil then flattens when not run for a bit,
whats th advantage over silcone?
Take Care,
Brent
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131505#131505
3D========================
3D=========
3D========================
3D=========
3D========================
3D=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Weird 747 shadow |
| From: | bertberry1(at)aol.com |
For what its worth, I think it has to do with shutter speed. Slower shutter speed
which allows better detail. In addition, a lot of these are not sat photos
but are aerial photos that are piece milled in.
Bert
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:58:54
To:
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
Hi, yes, Nico,I think Steve is likely right; I only read his post after I responded.
Talk about opening my yap before I have all the info :-)
Found some other aircraft with ghosted shadows. No I didn't scan Google Earth... well I did look at O'Hare to see if there were any on approach/climbout, and at Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary, and ... but then I gave up andcheatedbylooking at http://www.gearthhacks.com/dlcat24/Aircraft-in-flight.htm
Steve, given this, is it not possible that two photos are taken and then overlaid
to give the 3D effect when one tilts the earth to a more horizontal plane?
(pun unintended) This would explain the aircraft "moving on". In each of the ghosted
shadows the ghostaircraft appears to beon (or slightly higher)than the
clear aircraft. However, on a slower aircraft (like the helicopter, or aircraft
on finals) there isn't any ghosting.This would add to the theory that the aircraft
has moved on - only fast aircraft appear to beghosted.
Blessings
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: nico
css
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
Hi Andrew.
I dont think so, because the 747 would have to have drifted south without any forward
movement. The shadows of the surrounding structures indicate that its early
morning, so in that respect the blue shadow is in the right place. What is
a bit off, I would say, is that the shadow indicates that the sun is slightly
south of the 747, which is impossible seeing that Johannesburg is 26 deg south
and the sun never gets further south than 23.5 deg. However, if the shadow
was moved due to manipulation of the satellite photographs, then it might not
show where it actually was.
Steve gave an excellent explanation: satellite photos are not regular photos but
orthophotos, which are programmatically manipulated to make the individual satellite
images fit seamlessly in one image, and perhaps some shift could have
changed the color of the shadow. Steve I apologize if my paraphrasing what you
said has lost the message.
Who knows, but it is very interesting.
Nico
----------------
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget(at)telus.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Weird 747 shadow
> Look at google earth at this location: 26 02 03 S, 28 14 04 E
Yes, very interesting - note that the ghosted image is above the 'clear' 747 -
I wonder if it has something to do with a second photo taken immediately after
the first; the 747 having moved on since the first? I'm sure there's a better
explanation...
God bless,
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Attending your first Fly-In? |
Hi All,
If any Commander owner is attending their very first Fly-In, please let
me know and bring along a personalised history of their Commander(s).
Very Best Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weird 747 shadow |
Actually, when you use some of the GEO software such as Leica Suite, and
Imagine, some of the features you can choose to "merge" the images
seamlessly allow you to "feather" the images, which makes the image
progressively trsnsparent to the extent of the image... to appear more
seamless between frames, as well as auto dodging, which will change the
actual gamut of each image to match more or less creating another aspect
of "seamless" as the eye can see... color and density assuming the
images were captured at or near the same sun angle, weather etc. As for
the "ghost" shadow, I think it was feathered below the image that was
overlayed after, like you guys said... BAWK!
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
Brent,
The silicon, in my experience, are better than cork, however, first be sure
that someone hasn't tightened the screws up so much that the valve covers
are bent around the screw holes. This check can be done with a flat surface
and a feeler gage. If you go to silicon, and do engine oil analysis, be
sure to tell the analyzers. If you don't tell them, likely they will tell
you that the engine is in trouble. Do not over tighten the screws no matter
what type of gaskets you use.
Moe
N680RR
680F(p)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
brent-mueller(at)comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:21 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Oil Leak
-Greetings-
Our valve covers leak some.
what is the very best solution to oil leaking valve covers.
I was told silicon ones are the ones to use, we have cork now.
If cork expands with the warm oil then flattens when not run for a bit,
whats th advantage over silcone?
Take Care,
Brent
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131505#131505
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Campbell <brcamp(at)windows.microsoft.com> |
When I went to silicon valve covers the oil leak problem was greatly
reduced on the GO435s. There were still other leaks around some of the
accessories that had to be dealt with, but it was then possible to
isolate them. Eventually got it down to essentially no leaks.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
brent-mueller(at)comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:21 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Oil Leak
-Greetings-
Our valve covers leak some.
what is the very best solution to oil leaking valve covers.
I was told silicon ones are the ones to use, we have cork now.
If cork expands with the warm oil then flattens when not run for a bit,
whats th advantage over silcone?
Take Care,
Brent
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131505#131505
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Oil Leak [bcc][faked-from] |
Would it hurt to apply a thin layer of grease on the cork before
installation? That way the seal is not 'dry' and should prevent sweating. Or
is it a no-no on aviation engines?
Nico
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 5:47 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Oil Leak [bcc][faked-from]
The very best solution to oil leaking valve covers is not over-torquing the
screws that hold them on. When the screws are over-torqued, they pucker the
thin metal and ruin the seal with any gaskets.
Keep the cork gaskets and get new valve covers. Torque the screws (with
star washers) exactly as published in the overhaul manual (~ 20 inch pounds,
barely more than snug).
Brock
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of
brent-mueller(at)comcast.net
Sent: Tue 8/28/2007 9:21 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Oil Leak [bcc][faked-from]
-Greetings-
Our valve covers leak some.
what is the very best solution to oil leaking valve covers.
I was told silicon ones are the ones to use, we have cork now.
If cork expands with the warm oil then flattens when not run for a bit,
whats th advantage over silcone?
Take Care,
Brent
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131505#131505
3D========================
3D=========
3D========================
3D=========
3D========================
3D=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Leak [bcc][faked-from] |
We use Hylomar on ours...
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Leak [bcc][faked-from] |
go to http://www.hylomar-usa.com/ for aviation specifics...
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Myron Ashley" <mashley2(at)kc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Attending your first Fly-In? |
Hello Barry,
This will be my first fly-in. I am looking forward to meeting everyone.
Thanks,
Myron Ashley
N620DR
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Attending your first Fly-In?
Hi All,
If any Commander owner is attending their very first Fly-In, please
let me know and bring along a personalised history of their
Commander(s).
Very Best Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Attending your first Fly-In? |
Hi Myron,
Thanks for letting me know. I'll bring the history of your 500B
(1116-66) with me.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: Myron Ashley
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Attending your first Fly-In?
Hello Barry,
This will be my first fly-in. I am looking forward to meeting
everyone.
Thanks,
Myron Ashley
N620DR
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Attending your first Fly-In?
Hi All,
If any Commander owner is attending their very first Fly-In, please
let me know and bring along a personalised history of their
Commander(s).
Very Best Regards,
Barry
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM> |
hope to see all in fredicksburg T82 in three (3) weeks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM> |
hm, fwd via fed ex ystd pd. i will fwd ck to you for $50. for shipping to
ftw. tnx ur hlp mason
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Comm
ander-List:Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:15:19 -0400
If you dont want them send them back COD on Freight.
Thanks
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, parts arrived this am. there is no paperwork with them? we discussed
them being "yellow tagged"? i will advise what i am doing. tnx ur hlp. ma
son
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Comm
ander-List:Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:12:54 -0400
Shippe today for monday $ 449.75
i put a shipping lable in the packing list pouch to return the old valves
Thanks ( i will get seat bolts tommorow
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, tnx ur help. pls fwd two(2) each of the fuel shutoff valves part #AV1
6B1159 and required O-rings four(4) part#S-0310-219F to PRO AVIATION 221
AVIATION WAY #200 Fort Worth, Texas 76106. monday morn AM delivery. enc
lose invoice for $400.00 and I will send you a "good" check to the return a
ddress. thank you mason 817-517-4977
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Comm
ander-List: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:27:11 -0400
i do
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
anyone have a fuel shut off valve pn AV16B1159 and the O-rings S-0310-219F
x4 to install. PCAA mason
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: mander-List: |
The total is $449.75 Plus the old valves
Thanks
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, fwd via fed ex ystd pd. i will fwd ck to you for $50. for
shipping to ftw. tnx ur hlp mason
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.net
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List:
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:15:19 -0400
If you dont want them send them back COD on Freight.
Thanks
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, parts arrived this am. there is no paperwork with them? we
discussed them being "yellow tagged"? i will advise what i am doing.
tnx ur hlp. mason
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.net
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List:
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:12:54 -0400
Shippe today for monday $ 449.75
i put a shipping lable in the packing list pouch to return the
old valves
Thanks ( i will get seat bolts tommorow
Harry
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
hm, tnx ur help. pls fwd two(2) each of the fuel shutoff
valves part #AV16B1159 and required O-rings four(4) part#S-0310-219F to
PRO AVIATION 221 AVIATION WAY #200
Fort Worth, Texas 76106. monday morn AM delivery. enclose
invoice for $400.00 and I will send you a "good" check to the return
address. thank you mason 817-517-4977
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: avtec2(at)bellsouth.net
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List:
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:27:11 -0400
i do
Harry
321 267-3141
----- Original Message -----
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER
To: commander-list
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
anyone have a fuel shut off valve pn AV16B1159 and the
O-rings S-0310-219F x4 to install. PCAA mason
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
p://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
Once again Moe, well said.? I also recommend replacing all of the screws with correct
and new lycoming parts.? The screws will come with new lock washeres manufactured
on them.? They are not expencive.? I have tried just about everything
over the years and have found the silicone gaskets, properly torqued to flat
valve covers using new screws works?the best.? One last thing, when you install
the silicone gaskets, they should be completely dry.? No grease, oil or gasket
sealer.? it will work.? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Moe - Ross Racing Pistons <moe(at)rosspistons.com>
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 7:37 am
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Oil Leak
Brent,
The silicon, in my experience, are better than cork, however, first be sure
that someone hasn't tightened the screws up so much that the valve covers
are bent around the screw holes. This check can be done with a flat surface
and a feeler gage. If you go to silicon, and do engine oil analysis, be
sure to tell the analyzers. If you don't tell them, likely they will tell
you that the engine is in trouble. Do not over tighten the screws no matter
what type of gaskets you use.
Moe
N680RR
680F(p)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
brent-mueller(at)comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:21 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Oil Leak
-Greetings-
Our valve covers leak some.
what is the very best solution to oil leaking valve covers.
I was told silicon ones are the ones to use, we have cork now.
If cork expands with the warm oil then flattens when not run for a bit,
whats th advantage over silcone?
Take Care,
Brent
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131505#131505
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Main gear [bcc][faked-from][html-rem |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
HI JOHN, hows life??.
I have been around three different "on the ground" retracts.? The first was a straight
560 in Caldwell Idaho, next was a 690B grand Renaissance with dash 10s
(ouch) and the last a straight 500.? In every case the pilot started an engine
with the gear handle UP.? There is no squat switch so you are correct, up they
come.? In all three cases the gear collapsed on the side that was started,
resulting in a propeller strike in every case.? I assume that this is because
the gear most close to the operating hyd pump moves first??? Anyway, it can does
and will happen again.? Like you, I cant say why there would be a trend for
one gear over the other, probably a coincidence.? jb
That being said, I've heard of gear retracts happening on the ground. I'm certain
that ONE engine by itself makes enough pressure to retract the gear at idle,
as even during warmup at low RPM, my hydraulic system is steady at 1,000 PSI
regardless of steering or flap actuation.?
?
As far as right vs. left, I don't know the answer to that one...?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Sent: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:09 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Main gear [bcc][faked-from][html-rem]
?
This is a question I hope I NEVER find the answer to on my 500B. That being said,
I've heard of gear retracts happening on the ground. I'm certain that ONE engine
by itself makes enough pressure to retract the gear at idle, as even during
warmup at low RPM, my hydraulic system is steady at 1,000 PSI regardless of
steering or flap actuation.?
?
As far as right vs. left, I don't know the answer to that one...?
?
/J?
?
Brock Lorber wrote:?
> This is puzzle that is going to have an interesting answer. I'm following a rabbit's
warren that leads me to believe that the hydraulic pumps at idle can't
pump enough volume at idle to pull both legs over center simultaneously and that
there is something about the right leg (placement of the cylinder?) that makes
the right leg easier to pull over center than the left leg. Once it comes
over center, the resistance is a lot lower on the right side, so the left leg
won't come over center until the right leg fully retracts.?
>?
>?
> -----Original Message-----?
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry Collman?
> Sent: Tue 8/28/2007 7:50 AM?
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com?
> Subject: Commander-List: Main gear [bcc][faked-from][html-rem]?
> > Hi All,?
>?
> Can I just check something with you all. This is for a Model 500B specifically,
but I assume the scenario covers other Models.?
>?
> After landing, with indication that all three gears are down-and-locked, the
right-hand gear retracts.?
> It seems fairly 'common' that this is usually because the PiC has selected the
gear-up switch instead of the flaps-up switch.?
>?
> If so, is it the right-hand gear that actuates first??
>?
> Presumably, if the PiC realises his error in time, he can prevent the left-hand
gear actuating??
>?
> Best Regards,?
> Barry?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> __________ NOD32 2488 (20070828) Information __________?
>?
> ?
?
?
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
| From: | "lloyd silverman" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com> |
IM TIRED OF WAITING WEEKS FOR A BOOST PUMP OVERHAUL. ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN GET
A SPARE.fOR 500B SN 1189.
--------
LLOYD SILVERMAN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132357#132357
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
Good luck! I had mine rebuilt this past year, and it took quite a while. Now
they are fine - but other problems have arisen.
Best of luck
bobf
On 9/2/07, lloyd silverman wrote:
>
> lloydsss(at)gmail.com>
>
> IM TIRED OF WAITING WEEKS FOR A BOOST PUMP OVERHAUL. ANYONE KNOW WHERE I
> CAN GET A SPARE.fOR 500B SN 1189.
>
> --------
> LLOYD SILVERMAN
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132357#132357
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fly-In and Conference |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
Well folks, the Fly-In is right around the corner and we can't wait to see everyone
again and hear about your Commander adventures.? Be sure to get your registrations
in on time so we can have an accurate count for the caterers.? Also,
if you have any suggested changes for the Directory please let us know ASAP.?
Hope everyone is having a great Labor Day Weekend and getting in some Commander
time.
jb
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
| From: | "lloyd silverman" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com> |
WHO DID THE OVERHAUL?? THANKS,LLOYD
--------
LLOYD SILVERMAN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132403#132403
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
My local A&P at Summitt aviation in Temple Texas. Didn't look hard to do
bobf
On 9/2/07, lloyd silverman wrote:
>
> lloydsss(at)gmail.com>
>
> WHO DID THE OVERHAUL?? THANKS,LLOYD
>
> --------
> LLOYD SILVERMAN
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132403#132403
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
These guys did well for me. http://www.aircraftaccessoriesofok.com
bilbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 1:33 PM
Subject: Commander-List: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B
IM TIRED OF WAITING WEEKS FOR A BOOST PUMP OVERHAUL. ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN
GET A SPARE.fOR 500B SN 1189.
--------
LLOYD SILVERMAN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132357#132357
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
| From: | "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> |
Anyone ever tried to get a field approval for an external boost pump?
I went through 2 boost pumps on my 560 and 3 on the 685.
These damned things are terribly problematic.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132475#132475
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
| From: | "lloyd silverman" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com> |
I BELEIVE CENTRAL AIR HAS AN STC OR FIELD APPROVAL ON 5OOB.
I KNOW SEVERAL COMMANDER DRIVERS WHO ONLY TURN ON BOOST PUMPS TO START ENGINES,
NEVER DURING FLIGHT. NOT A SAFE IDEA,BUT PUMPS LAST LONGER.....
--------
LLOYD SILVERMAN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132492#132492
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
"Not a safe idea?"
A little boost pump trivia.
The Pratt and Whitney powered Douglas DC-8 was designed to take off and land
with the boost pumps off. Supposedly, Douglas felt if you wrecked it at
least the boost pumps wouldn't be pumping fuel into the fire. I'm not sure
why they thought you would have electrical power for the pumps to run
though.
The end.
bilbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:51 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B
I BELEIVE CENTRAL AIR HAS AN STC OR FIELD APPROVAL ON 5OOB.
I KNOW SEVERAL COMMANDER DRIVERS WHO ONLY TURN ON BOOST PUMPS TO START
ENGINES, NEVER DURING FLIGHT. NOT A SAFE IDEA,BUT PUMPS LAST LONGER.....
--------
LLOYD SILVERMAN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132492#132492
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
In a message dated 03-Sep-07 08:39:36 Pacific Daylight Time,
bowing74(at)earthlink.net writes:
A little boost pump trivia.
And a bit more ...
Remember when Cessna 300 and 400 series had HI/LO boost pumps that were
pressure switch activated? If fuel pressure dropped below a certain value, the
pump would kick into HI output.
More engine failures were caused by engine flooding than anything else and
Cessna had the pressure switches removed.
Wing Commander Gordon
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
Too much of a good thing.
bilbo
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B
In a message dated 03-Sep-07 08:39:36 Pacific Daylight Time,
bowing74(at)earthlink.net writes:
A little boost pump trivia.
And a bit more ...
Remember when Cessna 300 and 400 series had HI/LO boost pumps that were
pressure switch activated? If fuel pressure dropped below a certain value,
the pump would kick into HI output.
More engine failures were caused by engine flooding than anything else and
Cessna had the pressure switches removed.
Wing Commander Gordon
AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B |
Milt,
Where was the fuel pump on your 685? I would have assumed that it was in
the same place as my 680 (in the nacelle). They are a little hard to get to
but not in the tank.
Moe
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 5:39 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: FUEL BOOST PUMP 500B
Anyone ever tried to get a field approval for an external boost pump?
I went through 2 boost pumps on my 560 and 3 on the 685.
These damned things are terribly problematic.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132475#132475
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | New Realtime Spell Checker Added To Matronics Forums! |
Dear Listers,
Today 9/8/2007 I have added a new real-time spell checker function to all of the
BBS Forums at Matronics. When you reply or create a new message on the Forums,
you will notice that misspelled words will be high-lighted in yellow. If
you left-click on the word, you will be prompted with a drop-down list of suggested
spellings.
http://forums.matronics.com
Enjoy!
Matt Dralle
Matornics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: New Realtime Spell Checker Added To Matronics Forums! |
Boy you know who needs that.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: Commander-List: New Realtime Spell Checker Added To Matronics
Forums!
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> Today 9/8/2007 I have added a new real-time spell checker function to all
> of the BBS Forums at Matronics. When you reply or create a new message on
> the Forums, you will notice that misspelled words will be high-lighted in
> yellow. If you left-click on the word, you will be prompted with a
> drop-down list of suggested spellings.
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matornics Email List and Forum Administrator
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
Hey Y'All,
The Fly-In is only 10 days away.? YeeHaw!? Texas, here we come.?
There's still room for you -- just let us know you're coming so we can let the
caterers know how much food to prepare.?
See y'all there (just practicing my "Texas talk".)
Capt Jim Bob
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
I'll try to come by car! My AC500B is down for repairs in Springfield MO -
Will be looking at selling her soon after the right engine overhaul.
Bob Feldtman
N500GW
On 9/10/07, yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Hey Y'All,
>
> The Fly-In is only 10 days away. *YeeHaw! Texas, here we come*.
>
> There's still room for you -- just let us know you're coming so we can let
> the caterers know how much food to prepare.
>
> See y'all there (just practicing my "Texas talk".)
>
> Capt Jim Bob
> ------------------------------
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970>
> !
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> |
Would like to make it... Have been sorting out a strange problem with
the Commander, hopefully we'll "get er done" tomorrow or the next day. I
think one of the pilots and myself are going to try and show at least
for enough time to meet you guys, and mabey get in a round of golf
before getting back to DWH... We will see!!!
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Myron Ashley" <mashley2(at)kc.rr.com> |
Hello Jim,
I now have a final head count. My son (10yrs) and myself will be
traveling to the fly in. My wife and daughter backed out. I will give
you a check when I arrive.
Was there someone that had a 500B in Springfield MO that was going to
drive? I could stop in Springfield and pick them up.
Thanks,
Myron Ashley
N620DR
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:11 PM
Subject: Commander-List: 2007 Fly-In
Hey Y'All,
The Fly-In is only 10 days away. YeeHaw! Texas, here we come.
There's still room for you -- just let us know you're coming so we can
let the caterers know how much food to prepare.
See y'all there (just practicing my "Texas talk".)
Capt Jim Bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/16/07 |
As Jim knows I have once again had to cancel our plans to come to the fly-in.
I have two hotel rooms reserved at the hangar hotel and a car reserved. I will
be letting them go unless anyone wants a room or car and have been unable to
get one.
dan farmer
719 332 5601
Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 07-09-16&Archive=Commander
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 07-09-16&Archive=Commander
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Commander-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 09/16/07: 1
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:44 AM - Re: 2007 Fly-In (Myron Ashley)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
From: "Myron Ashley"
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2007 Fly-In
Hello Jim,
I now have a final head count. My son (10yrs) and myself will be
traveling to the fly in. My wife and daughter backed out. I will give
you a check when I arrive.
Was there someone that had a 500B in Springfield MO that was going to
drive? I could stop in Springfield and pick them up.
Thanks,
Myron Ashley
N620DR
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:11 PM
Subject: Commander-List: 2007 Fly-In
Hey Y'All,
The Fly-In is only 10 days away. YeeHaw! Texas, here we come.
There's still room for you -- just let us know you're coming so we can
let the caterers know how much food to prepare.
See y'all there (just practicing my "Texas talk".)
Capt Jim Bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/16/07 |
Folks, my things are not lining up either. Although I didn't reserve
anything because matters were very fluid at the onset, I was still hoping
that I might get to go at the last minute.
I wish all of you a very insightful and pleasant weekend. Would someone take
a lot of pics and video for the website?
Stay safe, y'all, and make an equal number of take-offs and landings.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Farmer
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/16/07
As Jim knows I have once again had to cancel our plans to come to the
fly-in. I have two hotel rooms reserved at the hangar hotel and a car
reserved. I will be letting them go unless anyone wants a room or car and
have been unable to get one.
dan farmer
719 332 5601
Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
07-09-16&Archive=Commander
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
2007-09-16&Archive=Commander
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Commander-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 09/16/07: 1
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:44 AM - Re: 2007 Fly-In (Myron Ashley)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
From: "Myron Ashley"
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2007 Fly-In
Hello Jim,
I now have a final head count. My son (10yrs) and myself will be
traveling to the fly in. My wife and daughter backed out. I will give
you a check when I arrive.
Was there someone that had a 500B in Springfield MO that was going to
drive? I could stop in Springfield and pick them up.
Thanks,
Myron Ashley
N620DR
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:11 PM
Subject: Commander-List: 2007 Fly-In
Hey Y'All,
The Fly-In is only 10 days away. YeeHaw! Texas, here we come.
There's still room for you -- just let us know you're coming so we can
let the caterers know how much food to prepare.
See y'all there (just practicing my "Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/16/07 |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
DAN, How about reconsidering your plans and showing up?????=C2- It wont be
the same without you.=C2- The Aussies are already here and having a great
time!!=C2- We can talk about crop dusting??=C2- Come on, you already ha
ve the reservations.=C2- jb
-----Original Message-----
From: nico css <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 9:41 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/16/07
Folks, my things are not lining up either. Although I didn=99t reserve
anything because matters were very fluid at the onset, I was still hoping t
hat I might get to go at the last minute.
=C2-
I wish all of you a very insightful and pleasant weekend. Would someone take
a lot of pics and video for the website?
=C2-
Stay safe, y=99all, and make an equal number of take-offs and landings
.
=C2-
Nico
=C2-
=C2-
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list
-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Farmer
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/16/07
=C2-
As Jim knows I have once again had to cancel our plans to come to the fly-in
.=C2- I have two hotel rooms reserved at the hangar hotel and a car reserv
ed.=C2- I will be letting them go unless anyone=C2- wants a room or car
and have been unable to get one.=C2-
=C2-
dan farmer
719 332 5601
Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
*
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha
pter 07-09-16&Archive=Commander
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap
ter 07-09-16&Archive=Commander
======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
======================
----------------------------------------------------------
Commander-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 09/16/07: 1
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:44 AM - Re: 2007 Fly-In (Myron Ashley)
________________________________ Message 1 _________________________________
____
From: "Myron Ashley"
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2007 Fly-In
Hello Jim,
I now have a final head count. My son (10yrs) and myself will be
traveling to the fly in. My wife and daughter backed out. I will give
you a check when I arrive.
Was there someone that had a 500B in Springfield MO that was going to
drive? I could stop in Springfield and pick them up.
Thanks,
Myron Ashley
N620DR
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:11 PM
Subject: Commander-List: 2007 Fly-In
Hey Y'All,
The Fly-In is only 10 days away. YeeHaw! Texas, here we come.
There's still room for you -- just let us know you're coming so we can
let the caterers know how much food to prepare.
See y'all there (just practicing my "Texas
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
-= - The Commander-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
-========================
-= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums!
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-========================
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http
://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07 |
What a TERRIFIC group of people. Teresa and I had such a great time.
Thanks to all
dan farmer
Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 07-09-22&Archive=Commander
Text Version:
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===============================================
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===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Commander-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sat 09/22/07: 0
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
---------------------------------
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on
Yahoo! TV.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07 |
So sad that I couldn't be with you all. At one time I just wanted to "the
hell with it all" and go, but looking back it wouldn't have been wise. So, I
am already looking forward to next year.
If anyone has taken some video or pictures and notes, forward them to me and
let's publish them on the website.
Thanks
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Farmer
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 5:26 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07
What a TERRIFIC group of people. Teresa and I had such a great time.
Thanks to all
dan farmer
Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML
_____
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? ">Preview the hottest
shows on Yahoo! TV.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07 |
Commanders-
My sentiments match Nico's.
I know I said this last year too, but.. N414C will be done in time for next
year's fly-in- so count on me being there!
(No really- this time I actually expect it to be ready!)
Supposed to test fly on Monday. Can you believe it took 6 weeks to get
parts from TCM to fix the left engine? Jeez.. Hopefully it'll fly well-
and we can run it over to Stockton to have the wingspar inspected- then
actually USE the airplane for it's intended purpose.
I'll keep you posted.
Robert
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:30 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07
So sad that I couldn't be with you all. At one time I just wanted to "the
hell with it all" and go, but looking back it wouldn't have been wise. So, I
am already looking forward to next year.
If anyone has taken some video or pictures and notes, forward them to me and
let's publish them on the website.
Thanks
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Farmer
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 5:26 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07
What a TERRIFIC group of people. Teresa and I had such a great time.
Thanks to all
dan farmer
Commander-List Digest Server wrote:
*
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML
_____
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? ">Preview the hottest
shows on Yahoo! TV.
__________ NOD32 2540 (20070919) Information __________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07 |
all at T82, enjoyed it, hope everyone had a safe trip home. I look forward
to next year. sorry i missed the festivities of sat. nt. mason
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:26:19 -0700From: daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.comSubject:
Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07To: commander-l
ist(at)matronics.com
What a TERRIFIC group of people. Teresa and I had such a great time.
Thanks to all
dan farmerCommander-List Digest Server wrote
:
*========================
=Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive========
=================Today's complete Command
er-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed belo
w. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a
web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .t
xt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Commander-List Digest and c
an be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web brows
er. HTML
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? ">Preview the hottest sho
ws on Yahoo! TV.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 2007 TCFG Fky-In |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
Despite some weather delays (2 hour stopoever in Durango, Colorado waiting for
a storm to pass through and a lot of flying around stuff) we made it home in time
to have a late dinner and sleep in our own bed lat night.? Total trip time
was around 13 hours with about 9.5 hours of flying time.? Had to make an extra
fuel stop one hour from home.? The old gal ran well all the way and Russel (from
Australia) was able to get a good bit of flying time from the captain seat!?
Richard, the other ozzie flew it most of the way to T82.? Wonderful to have
them on board with us.?
We want to thank all of you who took time out of your busy schedules to attend
the event.? We enjoyed seeing old commander friends and meeting new ones. As Dan
said, it is a terrific group of people who not only fly great airplanes, but
know how to have fun.?
For those of you who missed the event you missed out on a fantastic venue -- the
Hangar Hotel is truely someplace every pilot should visit.? There were 14 beautiful
looking tall-tailed birds sitting on the ramp right outside the hotel
entrance and approximately 40 people in attendance!? Not only that, there were
great speakers and a visit to the Pacific War museum where we witnessed a re-enactment
of a Pacific War battle.? And, as always the auction was lots of fun
with a few practical jokes thrown in!? Barry Collman, our historian came prepared
and entertained us with a litany of jokes during the event (thanks Barry).?
Make plans to attend next year as it will be the 60th anniversary of the flight
of the prototye Commander and it would be wonderful to fill the ramp up with
Commanders.? We're in the initial stages of planning and getting permission,
etc., but hoping we'll be able to hold it in Oklahoma City (Wiley Post), the
birthplace of the Commander.?
Anyway, thanks again to all who attended and we look forward to seeing the rest
of you next year.?
Cheers,
Jim & Sue Metzger
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Moe - Ross Racing Pistons" <moe(at)rosspistons.com> |
| Subject: | 2007 TCFG Fky-In |
Sue and Jim
(Notice I put her name first). Thanks for a great get together!
I was home yesterday about 1:30. Had to go up to 20,000 feet just east of
Tucson for weather.
Moe
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:17 AM
Subject: Commander-List: 2007 TCFG Fky-In
Despite some weather delays (2 hour stopoever in Durango, Colorado waiting
for a storm to pass through and a lot of flying around stuff) we made it
home in time to have a late dinner and sleep in our own bed lat night.
Total trip time was around 13 hours with about 9.5 hours of flying time.
Had to make an extra fuel stop one hour from home. The old gal ran well all
the way and Russel (from Australia) was able to get a good bit of flying
time from the captain seat! Richard, the other ozzie flew it most of the
way to T82. Wonderful to have them on board with us.
We want to thank all of you who took time out of your busy schedules to
attend the event. We enjoyed seeing old commander friends and meeting new
ones. As Dan said, it is a terrific group of people who not only fly great
airplanes, but know how to have fun.
For those of you who missed the event you missed out on a fantastic venue --
the Hangar Hotel is truely someplace every pilot should visit. There were
14 beautiful looking tall-tailed birds sitting on the ramp right outside the
hotel entrance and approximately 40 people in attendance! Not only that,
there were great speakers and a visit to the Pacific War museum where we
witnessed a re-enactment of a Pacific War battle. And, as always the
auction was lots of fun with a few practical jokes thrown in! Barry
Collman, our historian came prepared and entertained us with a litany of
jokes during the event (thanks Barry). Make plans to attend next year as it
will be the 60th anniversary of the flight of the prototye Commander and it
would be wonderful to fill the ramp up with Commanders. We're in the
initial stages of planning and getting permission, etc., but hoping we'll be
able to hold it in Oklahoma City (Wiley Post), the birthplace of the Com
mander.
Anyway, thanks again to all who attended and we look forward to seeing the
rest of you next year.
Cheers,
Jim & Sue Metzger
_____
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=A
OLAOF00020000000970> !
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/22/07 |
Same story here... We test flew 14AV on Sunday... finally ready to fly.
2 new cyl after "something" roamed around in the engine and caused a
bent valve. Never found the culprit, but lots of other stuff got looked
at until the borescope revealed the damage. Sad deal.
David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2007 TCFG Fky-In |
Jim,
I was very sorry to miss the event this year. In all the time I've owned
my airplane, this is the first Fly-in that I haven't been able to
make...but it was for a good reason! I've attached a picture of what I
believe is the TCFG's youngest Commander passenger right now; Reece
Elizabeth was born on 9/8/07.
I am already looking forward to next year's event. In the meantime, a
hearty "Cheers!" to all my Commander friends whom I was unable to see
this year, especially those who come across oceans to make the event;
Russell, Richard, Sir Barry......hope to see you next year!
/John
yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:
> Despite some weather delays (2 hour stopoever in Durango, Colorado
> waiting for a storm to pass through and a lot of flying around stuff)
> we made it home in time to have a late dinner and sleep in our own bed
> lat night. Total trip time was around 13 hours with about 9.5 hours
> of flying time. Had to make an extra fuel stop one hour from home.
> The old gal ran well all the way and Russel (from Australia) was able
> to get a good bit of flying time from the captain seat! Richard, the
> other ozzie flew it most of the way to T82. Wonderful to have them on
> board with us.
>
> We want to thank all of you who took time out of your busy schedules
> to attend the event. We enjoyed seeing old commander friends and
> meeting new ones. As Dan said, it is a terrific group of people who
> not only fly great airplanes, but know how to have fun.
>
> For those of you who missed the event you missed out on a fantastic
> venue -- the Hangar Hotel is truely someplace every pilot should
> visit. There were 14 beautiful looking tall-tailed birds sitting on
> the ramp right outside the hotel entrance and approximately 40 people
> in attendance! Not only that, there were great speakers and a visit
> to the Pacific War museum where we witnessed a re-enactment of a
> Pacific War battle. And, as always the auction was lots of fun with a
> few practical jokes thrown in! Barry Collman, our historian came
> prepared and entertained us with a litany of jokes during the event
> (thanks Barry). Make plans to attend next year as it will be the 60th
> anniversary of the flight of the prototye Commander and it would be
> wonderful to fill the ramp up with Commanders. We're in the initial
> stages of planning and getting permission, etc., but hoping we'll be
> able to hold it in Oklahoma City (Wiley Post), the birthplace of the
> Com mander.
>
> Anyway, thanks again to all who attended and we look forward to seeing
> the rest of you next year.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim & Sue Metzger
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
> <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970>!
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> |
| Subject: | 2007 TCFG Fky-In |
John,
What a gorgeous reason to stay away. That was worth not going. What a
beautiful child. Keep your shotgun oiled!
Nico
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2007 TCFG Fky-In
Jim,
I was very sorry to miss the event this year. In all the time I've owned
my airplane, this is the first Fly-in that I haven't been able to
make...but it was for a good reason! I've attached a picture of what I
believe is the TCFG's youngest Commander passenger right now; Reece
Elizabeth was born on 9/8/07.
I am already looking forward to next year's event. In the meantime, a
hearty "Cheers!" to all my Commander friends whom I was unable to see
this year, especially those who come across oceans to make the event;
Russell, Richard, Sir Barry......hope to see you next year!
/John
yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:
> Despite some weather delays (2 hour stopoever in Durango, Colorado
> waiting for a storm to pass through and a lot of flying around stuff)
> we made it home in time to have a late dinner and sleep in our own bed
> lat night. Total trip time was around 13 hours with about 9.5 hours
> of flying time. Had to make an extra fuel stop one hour from home.
> The old gal ran well all the way and Russel (from Australia) was able
> to get a good bit of flying time from the captain seat! Richard, the
> other ozzie flew it most of the way to T82. Wonderful to have them on
> board with us.
>
> We want to thank all of you who took time out of your busy schedules
> to attend the event. We enjoyed seeing old commander friends and
> meeting new ones. As Dan said, it is a terrific group of people who
> not only fly great airplanes, but know how to have fun.
>
> For those of you who missed the event you missed out on a fantastic
> venue -- the Hangar Hotel is truely someplace every pilot should
> visit. There were 14 beautiful looking tall-tailed birds sitting on
> the ramp right outside the hotel entrance and approximately 40 people
> in attendance! Not only that, there were great speakers and a visit
> to the Pacific War museum where we witnessed a re-enactment of a
> Pacific War battle. And, as always the auction was lots of fun with a
> few practical jokes thrown in! Barry Collman, our historian came
> prepared and entertained us with a litany of jokes during the event
> (thanks Barry). Make plans to attend next year as it will be the 60th
> anniversary of the flight of the prototye Commander and it would be
> wonderful to fill the ramp up with Commanders. We're in the initial
> stages of planning and getting permission, etc., but hoping we'll be
> able to hold it in Oklahoma City (Wiley Post), the birthplace of the
> Com mander.
>
> Anyway, thanks again to all who attended and we look forward to seeing
> the rest of you next year.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim & Sue Metzger
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
>
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=A
OLAOF00020000000970>!
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2007 TCFG Fky-In |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
Congratulations John!? We missed you and I know you're missing a certain award
plaque you usually win!?? Hope to see you in Oklahoma City next year as we bring
the birds back to Commander's birthplace.?
jb
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Sent: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:27 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2007 TCFG Fky-In
Jim,?
?
I was very sorry to miss the event this year. In all the time I've owned my airplane,
this is the first Fly-in that I haven't been able to make...but it was
for a good reason! I've attached a picture of what I believe is the TCFG's youngest
Commander passenger right now; Reece Elizabeth was born on 9/8/07.?
?
I am already looking forward to next year's event. In the meantime, a hearty "Cheers!"
to all my Commander friends whom I was unable to see this year, especially
those who come across oceans to make the event; Russell, Richard, Sir Barry......hope
to see you next year!?
?
/John?
?
yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:?
> Despite some weather delays (2 hour stopoever in Durango, Colorado > waiting
for a storm to pass through and a lot of flying around stuff) > we made it home
in time to have a late dinner and sleep in our own bed > lat night. Total trip
time was around 13 hours with about 9.5 hours > of flying time. Had to make
an extra fuel stop one hour from home. > The old gal ran well all the way and
Russel (from Australia) was able > to get a good bit of flying time from the
captain seat! Richard, the > other ozzie flew it most of the way to T82. Wonderful
to have them on > board with us. >?
> We want to thank all of you who took time out of your busy schedules > to attend
the event. We enjoyed seeing old commander friends and > meeting new ones.
As Dan said, it is a terrific group of people who > not only fly great airplanes,
but know how to have fun. >?
> For those of you who missed the event you missed out on a fantastic > venue --
the Hangar Hotel is truely someplace every pilot should > visit. There were
14 beautiful looking tall-tailed birds sitting on > the ramp right outside the
hotel entrance and approximately 40 people > in attendance! Not only that, there
were great speakers and a visit > to the Pacific War museum where we witnessed
a re-enactment of a > Pacific War battle. And, as always the auction was
lots of fun with a > few practical jokes thrown in! Barry Collman, our historian
came > prepared and entertained us with a litany of jokes during the event
> (thanks Barry). Make plans to attend next year as it will be the 60th > anniversary
of the flight of the prototye Commander and it would be > wonderful to
fill the ramp up with Commanders. We're in the initial > stages of planning and
getting permission, etc., but hoping we'll be > able to hold it in Oklahoma
City (Wiley Post), the birthplace of the > Com mande
r. >?
> Anyway, thanks again to all who attended and we look forward to seeing > the
rest of you next year. >?
> Cheers,?
> Jim & Sue Metzger?
>?
>?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------?
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail > <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970>!?
> *?
>?
>?
> *?
>?
>?
> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________?
>?
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2007 TCFG Fky-In |
Thanks Nico, this is girl #2 for us, so me & my shotgun will be plenty
busy in a few years!
Can't wait to see you all next year in OK.
/J
nico css wrote:
>
> John,
> What a gorgeous reason to stay away. That was worth not going. What a
> beautiful child. Keep your shotgun oiled!
> Nico
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
> Vormbaum
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:27 AM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2007 TCFG Fky-In
>
> Jim,
>
> I was very sorry to miss the event this year. In all the time I've owned
> my airplane, this is the first Fly-in that I haven't been able to
> make...but it was for a good reason! I've attached a picture of what I
> believe is the TCFG's youngest Commander passenger right now; Reece
> Elizabeth was born on 9/8/07.
>
> I am already looking forward to next year's event. In the meantime, a
> hearty "Cheers!" to all my Commander friends whom I was unable to see
> this year, especially those who come across oceans to make the event;
> Russell, Richard, Sir Barry......hope to see you next year!
>
> /John
>
> yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>> Despite some weather delays (2 hour stopoever in Durango, Colorado
>> waiting for a storm to pass through and a lot of flying around stuff)
>> we made it home in time to have a late dinner and sleep in our own bed
>> lat night. Total trip time was around 13 hours with about 9.5 hours
>> of flying time. Had to make an extra fuel stop one hour from home.
>> The old gal ran well all the way and Russel (from Australia) was able
>> to get a good bit of flying time from the captain seat! Richard, the
>> other ozzie flew it most of the way to T82. Wonderful to have them on
>> board with us.
>>
>> We want to thank all of you who took time out of your busy schedules
>> to attend the event. We enjoyed seeing old commander friends and
>> meeting new ones. As Dan said, it is a terrific group of people who
>> not only fly great airplanes, but know how to have fun.
>>
>> For those of you who missed the event you missed out on a fantastic
>> venue -- the Hangar Hotel is truely someplace every pilot should
>> visit. There were 14 beautiful looking tall-tailed birds sitting on
>> the ramp right outside the hotel entrance and approximately 40 people
>> in attendance! Not only that, there were great speakers and a visit
>> to the Pacific War museum where we witnessed a re-enactment of a
>> Pacific War battle. And, as always the auction was lots of fun with a
>> few practical jokes thrown in! Barry Collman, our historian came
>> prepared and entertained us with a litany of jokes during the event
>> (thanks Barry). Make plans to attend next year as it will be the 60th
>> anniversary of the flight of the prototye Commander and it would be
>> wonderful to fill the ramp up with Commanders. We're in the initial
>> stages of planning and getting permission, etc., but hoping we'll be
>> able to hold it in Oklahoma City (Wiley Post), the birthplace of the
>> Com mander.
>>
>> Anyway, thanks again to all who attended and we look forward to seeing
>> the rest of you next year.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jim & Sue Metzger
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
>>
>>
> <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=A
> OLAOF00020000000970>!
>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________
>>
>>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
It would be great to ave 100 Commanders on the ramp for this event, so plan hope
all of you are already planning to attend.? The Fly-In is usually held the 3rd
weekend of September and once the date has been firmed up we will let you know.?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Towner <johntowner(at)centralairsouthwest.com>
Cc: Dan Farmer ; Bob Steele ; Barry
Collman ; Bob & Stan Perkins ;
Andrew Towner
Sent: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 3:37 pm
Subject: Follow up
Jim,
Thanks for the great e-mail and glad you made it home all safe.? The "Hangar Hotel"
I agree was a great venue and I second the motion for PWA next year.? I think
I told you we use to have an office at PWA and I can help with many of the
details.?
Our trip from T82-PWA yesterday with Andrew, Anthony, and Sir Barry was all good.?
When we arrived the PWA restaurant was open and Ken Hale (85 years young)
met us with his friend.? Ken was head of engineering at Commander until he retired
in 1988 and had many stories about Ted Smith and many interesting Commander
events. On the way enroute I showed Barry Ken's signature in our AFM and then
on arrival Andrew ask Mr Hale to sign it again.? We had a great visit having
lunch in the PWA restaurant and afterwards Anthony and Andrew got the big I-Mac
and showed Ken the Commander flying on the computer explaining "blade element
theory" and I think Ken really got a chuckle out of the showing.? I mentioned
to Barry at lunch that the Commander "jigs" are at the approach end of runway
35 with grass and weeds growing up around them and Ken confirmed this and
Barry wanted to go see them almost instantly and Ken promised him they would drive
down to 50th street and view them after we took
off.? Mr Hale told some very interesting stories I had never heard and all in
all it was a wonderful experience.
One early suggestion.? The best hotel close to PWA is the Waterford Hotel about
3 miles from PWA east on 63rd street and it would be a great place to have the
TCFG folks stay next year.? Also Ken said they are moving the 1st Commander
from the trade school to a park about 1 mile from PWA and that would be a great
Saturday field trip for next year, maybe going through the old factory.
Keep in touch and again thank Sue for all of her help and the TCFG get together
this year was special.? I would like to try another mailing to all AC owners
for the 60th anniversary and it would be a great thing to have about 100 Commanders
lined up on the ramp at PWA next year (also Southwest Airlines flies to
OKC and it is very easy to get to PWA/OKC from just about anywhere in the USA
as you know).? In 1992 we had a company Saturday get together at PWA (1st time
all of our Commanders were at the same place at the same time) and it was a special
event (Bob Hoover came and did an air show for us under one condition,
that we have a party afterwards) and that is what happened.
PS-For some silly reason I can't e-mail to the TCFG web site and if you want to
share my note with the other AOK with me.
YOUR FRIEND,
John Towner
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2007 TCFG Fky-In |
| From: | "brent-mueller(at)comcast.net" <aerocommander-560e(at)comcast.net> |
time and $ are both very demanding at this time ok, there killing me...: )
Looking forward to next years, food for thought... if anyone were close to the
Minneapolis, MN metro area, we'd be obliged on having you over. (ANE)
Take Care...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136275#136275
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0101_197.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com> |
John VB
Your poor planning -as you might know- was a subject of conversation amongst
a few of us more enlightened in the group. To help you out for next years event
it happens in Sept so you might want to keep your zipper up for all of December
and most of Jan.
Family Planning
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 2007 TCFG Fky-In |
Congratulations, John!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Poor Planning |
Ha! Thanks for the advice!
Dan Farmer wrote:
> John VB
>
> Your poor planning -as you might know- was a subject of conversation
> amongst a few of us more enlightened in the group. To help you out
> for next years event it happens in Sept so you might want to keep your
> zipper up for all of December and most of Jan.
>
> Family Planning
>
> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JTAddington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net> |
I want to go on the record and say that I for one had a terrific time at the
fly in.
Jim Addington
N444BD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew J. Hawkins" <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu> |
| Subject: | Pressure Carburetor? |
All-
Anybody have a good shop they'd recommend that's familiar with working on/overhauling
the older pressure carburetors? We sent the left carb on N2760B out to
one shop - and it came back better in some ways - but mixture is either full
rich or idle cut-off. No adjustment in between.
We've gone through the cabling and linkage and all looks good. We think it's internal
to the carburetor at this point. Not sure, but the shop we used may have
messed something up.
Engines are G0-480-D1A's
Thoughts? Recommendations?
Matt
By the way, on our previous problem (engine skip/roughness when reducing power
through 21" manifold pressure) was exactly as one of you suggested - improperly
adjusted carb heat linkage. Many thanks on that one!
********************
Matthew Hawkins
Director, Marine Ops
R/V HUGH R. SHARP
302-645-4341
FAX: 302-645-4006
hawkins(at)udel.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
Matt,
Isn't that exactly how a pressure carb is supposed to work? It's
automatic mixture control with altitude. IIRC, you leave the levers in
full rich for all segments of the flight and the carbs do the rest.
Sounds like the shop did a fine job on your overhaul.
Cheers,
/John
Matthew J. Hawkins wrote:
>
> All-
>
> Anybody have a good shop they'd recommend that's familiar with working on/overhauling
the older pressure carburetors? We sent the left carb on N2760B out
to one shop - and it came back better in some ways - but mixture is either full
rich or idle cut-off. No adjustment in between.
>
> We've gone through the cabling and linkage and all looks good. We think it's
internal to the carburetor at this point. Not sure, but the shop we used may
have messed something up.
>
> Engines are G0-480-D1A's
>
> Thoughts? Recommendations?
>
> Matt
>
> By the way, on our previous problem (engine skip/roughness when reducing power
through 21" manifold pressure) was exactly as one of you suggested - improperly
adjusted carb heat linkage. Many thanks on that one!
>
> ********************
> Matthew Hawkins
> Director, Marine Ops
> R/V HUGH R. SHARP
> 302-645-4341
> FAX: 302-645-4006
> hawkins(at)udel.edu
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew J. Hawkins" <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu> |
| Subject: | Pressure Carburetor? |
Hmmm - now I'm going to have to show my (our) ignorance here! Maybe the right
one is what needs to be corrected! The right WILL lean out as you adjust the
mixture control.
Anybody else have thoughts?
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
Matt,
Isn't that exactly how a pressure carb is supposed to work? It's automatic mixture
control with altitude. IIRC, you leave the levers in full rich for all segments
of the flight and the carbs do the rest. Sounds like the shop did a fine
job on your overhaul.
Cheers,
/John
Matthew J. Hawkins wrote:
> -->
>
> All-
>
> Anybody have a good shop they'd recommend that's familiar with working
> on/overhauling the older pressure carburetors? We sent the left carb
> on N2760B out to one shop - and it came back better in some ways - but
> mixture is either full rich or idle cut-off. No adjustment in
> between.
>
> We've gone through the cabling and linkage and all looks good. We
> think it's internal to the carburetor at this point. Not sure, but the
> shop we used may have messed something up.
>
> Engines are G0-480-D1A's
>
> Thoughts? Recommendations?
>
> Matt
>
> By the way, on our previous problem (engine skip/roughness when
> reducing power through 21" manifold pressure) was exactly as one of
> you suggested - improperly adjusted carb heat linkage. Many thanks on
> that one!
>
> ********************
> Matthew Hawkins
> Director, Marine Ops
> R/V HUGH R. SHARP
> 302-645-4341
> FAX: 302-645-4006
> hawkins(at)udel.edu
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
They don't call them Bendix auto pressure carbs. for nothing!
I have been told that when I level off, say 8K or above, to pull it back
gently then push it back to full rich. So that is what I do.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew J. Hawkins" <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
>
>
> Hmmm - now I'm going to have to show my (our) ignorance here! Maybe the
> right one is what needs to be corrected! The right WILL lean out as you
> adjust the mixture control.
>
> Anybody else have thoughts?
>
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
> Vormbaum
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:08 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
>
>
> Matt,
>
> Isn't that exactly how a pressure carb is supposed to work? It's automatic
> mixture control with altitude. IIRC, you leave the levers in full rich for
> all segments of the flight and the carbs do the rest. Sounds like the shop
> did a fine job on your overhaul.
>
> Cheers,
>
> /John
>
> Matthew J. Hawkins wrote:
>> -->
>>
>> All-
>>
>> Anybody have a good shop they'd recommend that's familiar with working
>> on/overhauling the older pressure carburetors? We sent the left carb
>> on N2760B out to one shop - and it came back better in some ways - but
>> mixture is either full rich or idle cut-off. No adjustment in
>> between.
>>
>> We've gone through the cabling and linkage and all looks good. We
>> think it's internal to the carburetor at this point. Not sure, but the
>> shop we used may have messed something up.
>>
>> Engines are G0-480-D1A's
>>
>> Thoughts? Recommendations?
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> By the way, on our previous problem (engine skip/roughness when
>> reducing power through 21" manifold pressure) was exactly as one of
>> you suggested - improperly adjusted carb heat linkage. Many thanks on
>> that one!
>>
>> ********************
>> Matthew Hawkins
>> Director, Marine Ops
>> R/V HUGH R. SHARP
>> 302-645-4341
>> FAX: 302-645-4006
>> hawkins(at)udel.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ NOD32 2521 (20070911) Information __________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 9/26/2007 12:12 PM
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CloudCraft(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
In a message dated 26-Sep-07 11:08:51 Pacific Daylight Time,
john(at)vormbaum.com writes:
Isn't that exactly how a pressure carb is supposed to work? It's automatic
mixture control with altitude
Kinda.
The "Auto Lean" should lean with an increase in altitude and vice versa.
These can also be manually leaned and sometimes need to be if the auto lean
isn't working.
Evidence of auto lean not working is fogging of one (or both) exhausts,
excessive carbon or black soot in the stacks after a flight.
I once flew an AC-680E with one shot diaphragm and had to hold the mixture
of that engine in a lean position for as much as I could between California
and Florida. The mixture control would not stay where I wanted it in the
manual leaned position and that got tedious. Upon delivery, the pressure carbs
got sent to a rebuild shop with Mr. Kernick's direction.
The idea is to have properly operating pressure carbs that lean / enrichen
automatically.
By the way, those of you with pressure carbs, when you shut down the engine,
do not leave the mixtures in idle cut off. This will stretch out and dry out
the diaphragms.
So put them back in full rich when your Commander is sleeping.
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
I heard that, if you have neoprene gaskets,diaphrams etc. installed @
carburator over-haul, you can then leave the mixture in the off position. It seems
that I also heard that a bullitin was issued recommending that neoprene be
installed. Any one know for sure about this? Thanks Gil- Wingflyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
HI MATT.?
It sounds to me like the carb is working properly.? You should never manually lean
your carbs except in case of emergency (like WCG described).? Many years ago
I bought a 560A and as I flew it home I literally read the flight manual, on
my lap,?since I had no idea how to fly the thing.? The manual states that is
is possible to manually?lean the airplane above 10,000 feet.? So, as I crossed
the Rocky Mts, at 12Kt, I decided to lean the engines.? They were running perfect,
but I just could not leave well enough alone.? Well, I learned a couple
of things about Commanders!!? First, you don't need to lean the stinking carbs!!?
Second, whenever you do anything to a twin engine airplane, do it?one engine
at a time.? I reached for the mixture levers and moved them back about 1/2
way.? Nothing happened??? As I continued to pull them back a bit more, BOTH engines
quit cold!!? The silence was defining.? It only took about one millisecond
to get the mixtures back forward.
If you read the lettering on your power quadrant, you will notice that the mixtures
are not labeled "rich" & "lean".? Instead, they say "normal" & "idle cut
off" (Stop & go).
I think you new carb is working great and I wonder why the old carb will allow
you to lean it??? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew J. Hawkins <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu>
Sent: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 9:43 am
Subject: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
All-
Anybody have a good shop they'd recommend that's familiar with working
on/overhauling the older pressure carburetors? We sent the left carb on N2760B
out to one shop - and it came back better in some ways - but mixture is either
full rich or idle cut-off. No adjustment in between.
We've gone through the cabling and linkage and all looks good. We think it's
internal to the carburetor at this point. Not sure, but the shop we used may
have messed something up.
Engines are G0-480-D1A's
Thoughts? Recommendations?
Matt
By the way, on our previous problem (engine skip/roughness when reducing power
through 21" manifold pressure) was exactly as one of you suggested - improperly
adjusted carb heat linkage. Many thanks on that one!
********************
Matthew Hawkins
Director, Marine Ops
R/V HUGH R. SHARP
302-645-4341
FAX: 302-645-4006
hawkins(at)udel.edu
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
The only gaskets available are neopream, (orenge)? You shoud still leave the mix
forward (and the fuel "on") when parked for an extended time, overnight or longer.?
The reason is the diaphrams are streched when pulled to idel cut off and
will quiclky take a "set" if left there.? Leave the fuel on to "flood" the
inside of the carb with fuel to keep all of the pars properly lubed.? Also, although
not officialy sanctiond, you will likly find a can of Mavel mistery Oil
in the hangar of an experianced, presure carb owner.? Used in the fuel system
it will lube the inside of the carbs.? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Sent: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
I heard that, if you have neoprene gaskets,diaphrams etc. installed?@ carburator
over-haul, you can then leave the mixture in the off position. It seems that
I also heard that a bullitin was issued recommending that neoprene be installed.
Any one know for sure about this? Thanks Gil- Wingflyer
See what's new a_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> |
| Subject: | Pressure Carburetor? |
Jb-
Good story. Made more so by the fact that you'll admit to having done
something that most of us would attribute to "a friend was flying a
commander.."
Rob
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
HI MATT.
It sounds to me like the carb is working properly. You should never
manually lean your carbs except in case of emergency (like WCG described).
Many years ago I bought a 560A and as I flew it home I literally read the
flight manual, on my lap, since I had no idea how to fly the thing. The
manual states that is is possible to manually lean the airplane above 10,000
feet. So, as I crossed the Rocky Mts, at 12Kt, I decided to lean the
engines. They were running perfect, but I just could not leave well enough
alone. Well, I learned a couple of things about Commanders!! First, you
don't need to lean the stinking carbs!! Second, whenever you do anything to
a twin engine airplane, do it one engine at a time. I reached for the
mixture levers and moved them back about 1/2 way. Nothing happened?? As I
continued to pull them back a bit more, BOTH engines quit cold!! The
silence was defining. It only took about one millisecond to get the
mixtures back forward.
If you read the lettering on your power quadrant, you will notice that the
mixtures are not labeled "rich" & "lean". Instead, they say "normal" &
"idle cut off" (Stop & go).
I think you new carb is working great and I wonder why the old carb will
allow you to lean it?? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew J. Hawkins <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu>
Sent: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 9:43 am
Subject: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
All-
Anybody have a good shop they'd recommend that's familiar with working
on/overhauling the older pressure carburetors? We sent the left carb on
N2760B
out to one shop - and it came back better in some ways - but mixture is
either
full rich or idle cut-off. No adjustment in between.
We've gone through the cabling and linkage and all looks good. We think
it's
internal to the carburetor at this point. Not sure, but the shop we used may
have messed something up.
Engines are G0-480-D1A's
Thoughts? Recommendations?
Matt
By the way, on our previous problem (engine skip/roughness when reducing
power
through 21" manifold pressure) was exactly as one of you suggested -
improperly
adjusted carb heat linkage. Many thanks on that one!
********************
Matthew Hawkins
Director, Marine Ops
R/V HUGH R. SHARP
302-645-4341
FAX: 302-645-4006
hawkins(at)udel.edu
_____
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=A
OLAOF00020000000970> !
__________ NOD32 2554 (20070926) Information __________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew J. Hawkins" <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu> |
| Subject: | Pressure Carburetor? |
jb-
What a GREAT description of what we've seen! Thanks so much for passing th
is on. Somehow something so obvious and important has escaped us until now
. Guess we've had so many things to deal with on this overhaul that this f
inally rose to the "top of the pile".
Both engines only have about 12-15 hours on them and seem to be running ric
h - plugs fouling until getting up to temp. We could lean the right side o
ut enough to get a good mag check, but left wouldn't lean - though we had l
ess problems with the left mags than the right. So this is what lead us to
my question.
Thinking about going with the wire-type plugs that don't foul. Good idea?
Sounds like the left side is doing what it's supposed to do. Right side ma
y still not be working properly with "auto lean" but sounds like it's not n
ecessarily a danger - just need to be aware of it for now. We'll get it lo
oked at - but at least we understand (now) what the carbs are supposed to b
e doing.
Many thanks to all of you!
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
HI MATT.
It sounds to me like the carb is working properly. You should never manual
ly lean your carbs except in case of emergency (like WCG described). Many
years ago I bought a 560A and as I flew it home I literally read the flight
manual, on my lap, since I had no idea how to fly the thing. The manual s
tates that is is possible to manually lean the airplane above 10,000 feet.
So, as I crossed the Rocky Mts, at 12Kt, I decided to lean the engines. T
hey were running perfect, but I just could not leave well enough alone. We
ll, I learned a couple of things about Commanders!! First, you don't need
to lean the stinking carbs!! Second, whenever you do anything to a twin en
gine airplane, do it one engine at a time. I reached for the mixture lever
s and moved them back about 1/2 way. Nothing happened?? As I continued to
pull them back a bit more, BOTH engines quit cold!! The silence was defin
ing. It only took about one millisecond to get the mixtures back forward.
If you read the lettering on your power quadrant, you will notice that the
mixtures are not labeled "rich" & "lean". Instead, they say "normal" & "id
le cut off" (Stop & go).
I think you new carb is working great and I wonder why the old carb will al
low you to lean it?? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew J. Hawkins <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu>
Sent: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 9:43 am
Subject: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
l.edu>
All-
Anybody have a good shop they'd recommend that's familiar with working
on/overhauling the older pressure carburetors? We sent the left carb on N2
760B
out to one shop - and it came back better in some ways - but mixture is eit
her
full rich or idle cut-off. No adjustment in between.
We've gone through the cabling and linkage and all looks good. We think it
's
internal to the carburetor at this point. Not sure, but the shop we used ma
y
have messed something up.
Engines are G0-480-D1A's
Thoughts? Recommendations?
Matt
By the way, on our previous problem (engine skip/roughness when reducing po
wer
through 21" manifold pressure) was exactly as one of you suggested - improp
erly
adjusted carb heat linkage. Many thanks on that one!
********************
Matthew Hawkins
Director, Marine Ops
R/V HUGH R. SHARP
302-645-4341
FAX: 302-645-4006
hawkins(at)udel.edu
________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
Good Morning Matt,
May I add a caveat or two?
I have no knowledge at all concerning the specific pressure carburetors with
which your airplane is equipped, but there are many pressure carburetors
that DO need to be manually leaned.
The ubiquitous Bendix PS5c is one such pressure carburetor. It has no AMC
(Automatic Mixture Control) unit involved in it's operation.
The degree of automation for pressure carburetors varies from having an
electric switch to turn the whole shebang OFF or ON to having additional settings
for Takeoff, Climb, Auto Lean, Auto Rich, and Idle Cutoff.
The number of variations is only limited by the desires of the engine user
and the fuel control designer. The vast majority of the pressure carburetors
in use can benefit from manual leaning under many conditions.
However, such manually leaning is generally only recommended when the
operator has adequate instrumentation and time available to evaluate the effects
of that manual leaning process.
Prior to the introduction of turbojet powered aircraft to the airline
industry, I spent fourteen years flying big round engines that were equipped with
"Pressure Carburetors". I also had a flight engineer whose primary job was
using the manual leaning capability of the pressure carburetors to gain the
greatest efficiency possible for our operations.
I would suggest that anyone who is interested in manual leaning first equip
their engine with a modern engine monitor and a good electronic fuel flow
measurement device, then learn to properly interpret what that information is
telling us.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 9/27/2007 6:35:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu writes:
What a GREAT description of what we've seen! Thanks so much for passing
this on. Somehow something so obvious and important has escaped us until now.
Guess we've had so many things to deal with on this overhaul that this
finally rose to the "top of the pile".
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> |
Let's slow down and think about this for a bit. Unfortunately most of the original
TC drivers mechanics and designers are long gone and we have to rely on word
of mouth OWTs and seat of the pants in flying these things but sometimes careful
analysis of common sense and known physics can be helpful.
It is called a MIXTURE control, not an on/off control. And it is there for a reason.
This says that as you move the lever it alters the fuel air ratio. It does this
by tightening a diaphragm which lessens the automatic input from the aneroid
barometer and it also slides a precision needle valve in and out of it's seat
adjusting the fuel air mixture/ratio.
The pressure carb also alters the fuel air ratio based on the changing altitude/
ambient pressure as you climb/descend.
While this takes some of the workload off the pilot we all know mixture should
be adjusted relative to peak EGT. Pressure carbs adjusting for altitude only get
a close approximation to getting the mixture to where the engine is happy and
efficient. With AVGAS at $4+ a gallon efficient is becoming very important.
Also the accuracy of the mixture is only as good as the tech that rebuilds or
calibrates the carb. I do not believe there is anyone left alive who can do this
properly on a commander. Last I knew there was only one working test bench
left in existence.
If your carbs were not done on this bench and Jet A or deisel was not used for
calibration then they are NOT working correctly.
Much has been said about "stretching" the diaphragm. This should convince you that
the mixture lever does more than turn things on or off.
The reason to leave it full rich at shutdown is twofold.
1. The diaphragm will dry out and age quickly if you do this,
2. The mixture control also moves a needle valve that is fully seated against a
brass boss in the ICO position. If left in ICO the needle valve will leave an
indent in the brass boss and leak.
The correct way to lean a normally aspirated pressure carb in a Twin Commander
is......
When at altitude (over 5000') and you have full throttle and the props set, pull
the throttle back till you get the 1st visible decrease in manifold pressure.
then advance the throttle to max Manifold pressure obtainable. The manual and
many old timers would now say you are leaned. But you have that nice red lever
that puts tension on a diaphragm and moves a needle valve both of which adjust
fuel air ratio. Now why was it put there?
So in the best of all worlds you have an engine monitor that monitors all your
EGTs and CHTs as well as a fuel flow indicator for each engine.
Then you can lean to peak if under 65% power (which you will be under at altitude)
or if you are a wuss lean somwhere ROP or if a real man try to go LOP if the
engine remains smooth.
If you do not have the fancy gizmos then lean till the engine gets rough then push
it a skosh forward.
In my 560 this invariably saved me 2.5 GPH per engine at cruise or 5 GPH total.
at 300 hrs a year this adds up to mucho deniro.
In the super charged versions your throttle will be set at wherever you set it
for cruise so just lean till rough then enrichen. In the supercharged versions
you need to be cautious and remain ROP as you most likely will be above 65% power
and can cause harm at peak and LOP. To remain ROP do not dally when the engine
gets rough bump that red rascal forward about an eighth of an inch quickly.
A caveat is the 560Fs for some reason the engine/carb combination on these setups
will often do as JB described that is they go from cruise to silence. I suspect
this has more to do with poor rebuild or calibration and maintenance than
the setup it self.
I have found after several years of playing with LOP operations using engine analyzers
that if your goal is efficiency and safe operation while running ROP then
the lean to rough and a skosh forward on the mixture control will put your
mixture lever in exactly the same place the fancy expensive engine monitor will
have you put it by using their auto lean algorithms.
If you like to play with LOP and have FI and a super or turbocharger do not even
attempt it without an engine analyzer.
If you lean correctly and control temps correctly not only does this save fuel
but more importantly in these old birds it will greatly prolong engine life.
Well that was a long post and I hope helpful.
The short answer to the original post is your carbs (statistically) are most likely
not calibrated correctly and while they may be safe I would not assume so.
I cannot remember the shop or tech that can do it but the name Czarnecki in Oklahoma
rings a bell as does the word "precision" in the shop name. One of the old
timers should be able to steer you there. It may also be listed somewhere in
the old Commander list archives that I believe Nico is the keeper of.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136751#136751
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> |
As an aside to this thread but same subject I am currently flying an M14PF (Russian
Radial) that has a pressure carb and no mixture control.
These are great engines but the carbs are hard to come by and there are no parts
available to rebuild them. There is nobody who can calibrate the and no equipment
or instructions to calibrate them with. Not a good scenario.
So I put an Airflow Performance INc. ( http://www.airflowperformance.com/html/site_html.html ) Throttle body on it that has a mixture control. The throttle body is a close 1st cousin to a pressure carb and a step up on the evolutionary ladder to fuel injection.
The thing is simplicity itself and required no engine mods or adjustments.
It jives me additional HP and full control of mixture at all altitudes.
Now I would never suggest violation of FARs but if I still owned a Twin Commander
I would be sorely tempted to slap a couple of these on as opposed to rebuilding
those old pressure carbs. They make several modes for Lycomings. (experimental
of course)
In the pictures attached below the throttle body can be seen with a blue elbow
attached to it.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
Milt, When I leave the mixture forward The right carb on my 680 leaks about
a gallon or two over night. Since I am a new 680 owner I am trying to learn as
much as I can. Any info would be helpful. Thanks Gil Wingflyer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
Had a problem with the left engine not starting easy, spitting , spurttering
and running rough. After the first so called mechanic adjusted and rebuilt
the carb on my 680 another mechanic found the problem. The intake manifold
gaskets needed to be replaced. Cured the problem. Sometimes all the adjusting
and re-building may not be the true answer. You have to check it ALL. Gil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
Thanks for the info. When I leave the mixture rich on my 680, fuel leaks out
of the right carb. Know of any fix for the leaking. Thanks Gil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Bow" <bowing74(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Pressure Carburetor? |
Caulk.
bb
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
Thanks for the info. When I leave the mixture rich on my 680, fuel leaks out
of the right carb. Know of any fix for the leaking. Thanks Gil
_____
See what's new at AOL.com and
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| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
HI MATT
Yes, fine wire plugs are worth the money, I have them in both?my airplanes.? Also,
All Commanders left the factory with fine wire plugs, even in 1956.? You have
two adjustments on your carbs.? If they are rich on the ground, they are probably
rich in flight.? There is an idle mix adj at the throttle arm (see you
maint manual) and an "off idle" adj.? Both will need to be "tweeked" if the carbs
have been off the airplane.? Call me at 360-903-6901, I talk faster than
i type.? jb
Thinking about going with the wire-type plugs that don't foul.? Good idea??
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew J. Hawkins <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu>
Sent: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 4:33 am
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
jb-
?
What a?GREAT description of what we've seen!? Thanks so much for passing this on.?
Somehow something so obvious and important has escaped us until now.? Guess
we've had so many things to deal with on this overhaul that this finally rose
to the "top of the pile".
?
Both engines only have about 12-15 hours on them and seem to be running rich -
plugs fouling until getting up to temp.? We could lean the?right side out enough
to get a good mag check, but?left wouldn't lean - though we had less problems
with the left mags than the right.? So this is what?lead us to my question.
?
Thinking about going with the wire-type plugs that don't foul.? Good idea??
?
Sounds like the left side is doing what it's supposed to do.? Right side may still
not be working properly with "auto lean" but sounds like it's not necessarily
a danger - just need to be aware of it for now.? We'll get it looked at -
but at least we understand (now) what the carbs are supposed to be doing.
?
Many thanks to all of you!
?
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
HI MATT.?
It sounds to me like the carb is working properly.? You should never manually lean
your carbs except in case of emergency (like WCG described).? Many years ago
I bought a 560A and as I flew it home I literally read the flight manual, on
my lap,?since I had no idea how to fly the thing.? The manual states that is
is possible to manually?lean the airplane above 10,000 feet.? So, as I crossed
the Rocky Mts, at 12Kt, I decided to lean the engines.? They were running perfect,
but I just could not leave well enough alone.? Well, I learned a couple
of things about Commanders!!? First, you don't need to lean the stinking carbs!!?
Second, whenever you do anything to a twin engine airplane, do it?one engine
at a time.? I reached for the mixture levers and moved them back about 1/2
way.? Nothing happened??? As I continued to pull them back a bit more, BOTH engines
quit cold!!? The silence was defining.? It only took about one millisecond
to get the mixtures back forward.
If you read the lettering on your power quadrant, you will notice that the mixtures
are not labeled "rich" & "lean".? Instead, they say "normal" & "idle cut
off" (Stop & go).
I think you new carb is working great and I wonder why the old carb will allow
you to lean it??? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew J. Hawkins <hawkins(at)cms.udel.edu>
Sent: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 9:43 am
Subject: Commander-List: Pressure Carburetor?
All-
Anybody have a good shop they'd recommend that's familiar with working
on/overhauling the older pressure carburetors? We sent the left carb on N2760B
out to one shop - and it came back better in some ways - but mixture is either
full rich or idle cut-off. No adjustment in between.
We've gone through the cabling and linkage and all looks good. We think it's
internal to the carburetor at this point. Not sure, but the shop we used may
have messed something up.
Engines are G0-480-D1A's
Thoughts? Recommendations?
Matt
By the way, on our previous problem (engine skip/roughness when reducing power
through 21" manifold pressure) was exactly as one of you suggested - improperly
adjusted carb heat linkage. Many thanks on that one!
********************
Matthew Hawkins
Director, Marine Ops
R/V HUGH R. SHARP
302-645-4341
FAX: 302-645-4006
hawkins(at)udel.edu
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
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ics.com
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| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
Sorry Milt, but you are wrong.? Your straight 560?may have?had manually leaning
carbs, the?AUTO lean carbs need to be left in the "normal" position for all flight
and ground operations.? They are NOT to be routinely?adjusted in flight.??That
is why the factory lab;ed the quadrant "normal & Idle cut off" rather than
"rich & lean".? jb???
-----Original Message-----
From: N395V <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
Sent: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 6:42 am
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Pressure Carburetor?
Let's slow down and think about this for a bit. Unfortunately most of the
original TC drivers mechanics and designers are long gone and we have to rely on
word of mouth OWTs and seat of the pants in flying these things but sometimes
careful analysis of common sense and known physics can be helpful.
It is called a MIXTURE control, not an on/off control. And it is there for a
reason.
This says that as you move the lever it alters the fuel air ratio. It does this
by tightening a diaphragm which lessens the automatic input from the aneroid
barometer and it also slides a precision needle valve in and out of it's seat
adjusting the fuel air mixture/ratio.
The pressure carb also alters the fuel air ratio based on the changing altitude/
ambient pressure as you climb/descend.
While this takes some of the workload off the pilot we all know mixture should
be adjusted relative to peak EGT. Pressure carbs adjusting for altitude only get
a close approximation to getting the mixture to where the engine is happy and
efficient. With AVGAS at $4+ a gallon efficient is becoming very important. Also
the accuracy of the mixture is only as good as the tech that rebuilds or
calibrates the carb. I do not believe there is anyone left alive who can do this
properly on a commander. Last I knew there was only one working test bench left
in existence.
If your carbs were not done on this bench and Jet A or deisel was not used for
calibration then they are NOT working correctly.
Much has been said about "stretching" the diaphragm. This should convince you
that the mixture lever does more than turn things on or off.
The reason to leave it full rich at shutdown is twofold.
1. The diaphragm will dry out and age quickly if you do this,
2. The mixture control also moves a needle valve that is fully seated against a
brass boss in the ICO position. If left in ICO the needle valve will leave an
indent in the brass boss and leak.
The correct way to lean a normally aspirated pressure carb in a Twin Commander
is......
When at altitude (over 5000') and you have full throttle and the props set, pull
the throttle back till you get the 1st visible decrease in manifold pressure.
then advance the throttle to max Manifold pressure obtainable. The manual and
many old timers would now say you are leaned. But you have that nice red lever
that puts tension on a diaphragm and moves a needle valve both of which adjust
fuel air ratio. Now why was it put there?
So in the best of all worlds you have an engine monitor that monitors all your
EGTs and CHTs as well as a fuel flow indicator for each engine.
Then you can lean to peak if under 65% power (which you will be under at
altitude) or if you are a wuss lean somwhere ROP or if a real man try to go LOP
if the engine remains smooth.
If you do not have the fancy gizmos then lean till the engine gets rough then
push it a skosh forward.
In my 560 this invariably saved me 2.5 GPH per engine at cruise or 5 GPH total.
at 300 hrs a year this adds up to mucho deniro.
In the super charged versions your throttle will be set at wherever you set it
for cruise so just lean till rough then enrichen. In the supercharged versions
you need to be cautious and remain ROP as you most likely will be above 65%
power and can cause harm at peak and LOP. To remain ROP do not dally when the
engine gets rough bump that red rascal forward about an eighth of an inch
quickly.
A caveat is the 560Fs for some reason the engine/carb combination on these
setups will often do as JB described that is they go from cruise to silence. I
suspect this has more to do with poor rebuild or calibration and maintenance
than the setup it self.
I have found after several years of playing with LOP operations using engine
analyzers that if your goal is efficiency and safe operation while running ROP
then the lean to rough and a skosh forward on the mixture control will put your
mixture lever in exactly the same place the fancy expensive engine monitor will
have you put it by using their auto lean algorithms.
If you like to play with LOP and have FI and a super or turbocharger do not even
attempt it without an engine analyzer.
If you lean correctly and control temps correctly not only does this save fuel
but more importantly in these old birds it will greatly prolong engine life.
Well that was a long post and I hope helpful.
The short answer to the original post is your carbs (statistically) are most
likely not calibrated correctly and while they may be safe I would not assume
so.
I cannot remember the shop or tech that can do it but the name Czarnecki in
Oklahoma rings a bell as does the word "precision" in the shop name. One of the
old timers should be able to steer you there. It may also be listed somewhere in
the old Commander list archives that I believe Nico is the keeper of.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
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________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
HI MILT.? I am not picking on you, but need to make one other correction.? This
may be why you were saving gas by manully leaaning you carbs.? On normally asperated
engins, equiped with auto lean carbs, it is important to retard the throttls
in cruse.? These carbs are equiped with a enrichment valve that is opened
at throttle settings above 80%.? This feature uses fuel to cool the engine
durring climb and high power settinsg.? Once you reach you cruse altitude, you
should retard the throttls as far as possible and still maintane the desired
MP.? This closes the enrichment valve and alows the carb to adjust the mix properly.?
If the throttle is left fully forward, the ericment valve will reamin
open, defeating a portion of the auto lean circut.? jb
When at altitude (over 5000') and you have full throttle and the props set,
-----Original Message-----
From: N395V <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
Sent: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 6:42 am
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Pressure Carburetor?
Let's slow down and think about this for a bit. Unfortunately most of the
original TC drivers mechanics and designers are long gone and we have to rely on
word of mouth OWTs and seat of the pants in flying these things but sometimes
careful analysis of common sense and known physics can be helpful.
It is called a MIXTURE control, not an on/off control. And it is there for a
reason.
This says that as you move the lever it alters the fuel air ratio. It does this
by tightening a diaphragm which lessens the automatic input from the aneroid
barometer and it also slides a precision needle valve in and out of it's seat
adjusting the fuel air mixture/ratio.
The pressure carb also alters the fuel air ratio based on the changing altitude/
ambient pressure as you climb/descend.
While this takes some of the workload off the pilot we all know mixture should
be adjusted relative to peak EGT. Pressure carbs adjusting for altitude only get
a close approximation to getting the mixture to where the engine is happy and
efficient. With AVGAS at $4+ a gallon efficient is becoming very important. Also
the accuracy of the mixture is only as good as the tech that rebuilds or
calibrates the carb. I do not believe there is anyone left alive who can do this
properly on a commander. Last I knew there was only one working test bench left
in existence.
If your carbs were not done on this bench and Jet A or deisel was not used for
calibration then they are NOT working correctly.
Much has been said about "stretching" the diaphragm. This should convince you
that the mixture lever does more than turn things on or off.
The reason to leave it full rich at shutdown is twofold.
1. The diaphragm will dry out and age quickly if you do this,
2. The mixture control also moves a needle valve that is fully seated against a
brass boss in the ICO position. If left in ICO the needle valve will leave an
indent in the brass boss and leak.
The correct way to lean a normally aspirated pressure carb in a Twin Commander
is......
When at altitude (over 5000') and you have full throttle and the props set, pull
the throttle back till you get the 1st visible decrease in manifold pressure.
then advance the throttle to max Manifold pressure obtainable. The manual and
many old timers would now say you are leaned. But you have that nice red lever
that puts tension on a diaphragm and moves a needle valve both of which adjust
fuel air ratio. Now why was it put there?
So in the best of all worlds you have an engine monitor that monitors all your
EGTs and CHTs as well as a fuel flow indicator for each engine.
Then you can lean to peak if under 65% power (which you will be under at
altitude) or if you are a wuss lean somwhere ROP or if a real man try to go LOP
if the engine remains smooth.
If you do not have the fancy gizmos then lean till the engine gets rough then
push it a skosh forward.
In my 560 this invariably saved me 2.5 GPH per engine at cruise or 5 GPH total.
at 300 hrs a year this adds up to mucho deniro.
In the super charged versions your throttle will be set at wherever you set it
for cruise so just lean till rough then enrichen. In the supercharged versions
you need to be cautious and remain ROP as you most likely will be above 65%
power and can cause harm at peak and LOP. To remain ROP do not dally when the
engine gets rough bump that red rascal forward about an eighth of an inch
quickly.
A caveat is the 560Fs for some reason the engine/carb combination on these
setups will often do as JB described that is they go from cruise to silence. I
suspect this has more to do with poor rebuild or calibration and maintenance
than the setup it self.
I have found after several years of playing with LOP operations using engine
analyzers that if your goal is efficiency and safe operation while running ROP
then the lean to rough and a skosh forward on the mixture control will put your
mixture lever in exactly the same place the fancy expensive engine monitor will
have you put it by using their auto lean algorithms.
If you like to play with LOP and have FI and a super or turbocharger do not even
attempt it without an engine analyzer.
If you lean correctly and control temps correctly not only does this save fuel
but more importantly in these old birds it will greatly prolong engine life.
Well that was a long post and I hope helpful.
The short answer to the original post is your carbs (statistically) are most
likely not calibrated correctly and while they may be safe I would not assume
so.
I cannot remember the shop or tech that can do it but the name Czarnecki in
Oklahoma rings a bell as does the word "precision" in the shop name. One of the
old timers should be able to steer you there. It may also be listed somewhere in
the old Commander list archives that I believe Nico is the keeper of.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136751#136751
________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> |
I was wondering if anyone was paying attention.
Nope the 560 had pressure carbs. It is odd that you have a lever that moves 4-5
inches and moves things inside the carb for just on and off. Seems it would have
been simpler to just out an on/off valve at the carb inlet.
I had a Cessna that had a mixture controlo labelled only open and idle cutoff.
It was certainly there to control mixture.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137167#137167
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> |
The following is a reprint from "Light Plane Maintenance"
Discussing aircraft mixture control systems. It is lengthy but a good read, especially
the section on pressure carbs and leaning method by type of fuel distribution
system.
As you can see from the article pressure carbs require manual mixture adjustment
to get the most out of your engine.
JB I think you are a bit premature with the use of the word "wrong"
I do not doubt that you and many Commander pilots and many older pilots were taught
that the mixture control on PS5 pressure carbs is simply an on off switch.
That concept is just plain wrong and needs to be questioned rather than just
passed on as gospel.
In the old days fuel was a cheap coolant and leaving a pressure carb at full rich
was acceptable practice. It even made its way into some manuals although I
do not recall seeing it in a commander manual.
Mr Bendix did not attach the mixture control to a "METERING NEEDLE VALVE" for the
purpose of on and off. If on/off were his intent he would have put a ball valve
on the carb inlet.
This concept is just as dated as
Don't run oversquare MP>RPM/1000
Rapid throttle reduction causes shock cooling.. Data clearly shows flight into
precipitation causes greater mor rapid cooling.
Do not run LOP.. Once again date clearly refutes this.
Any way the article follows.
Mixture Control
by LIGHT PLANE MAINTENANCE staff
Part 1 - Mixture Control Systems
Here we go again, another article on mixture management destined to tell me things
I already know. Well, maybe. It's entirely possible that some information
will seem repetitious, but, then again, redundancy in aviation isn't such a bad
thing either. judging from some reader questions, such a revisit to the topic
is warranted.
Mixture Control is written from the pilot's perspective, by a professional test-pilot,
and is designed to answer the why, when, where and how of mixture control
and proper leaning procedure for various fuel delivery systems. It is an encyclopedia
of fuel management. To the layman, it translates into verse as "How
to avoid burning a hole in your wallet".
Inspite of the proliferation of digital instrumentation, the Basic EGT is still
an outstanding instrument for monitoring Fuel Flow vs Percent Power. Most of
the material in this article is based on this basic level of instrumentation and
control. Units of measurement remain in the original Imperial units (oF, for
example) because over 60% of aircraft in use are more than 50 years old.
Air-Fuel Ratios/Distribution
In general terms, mixture is defined as the ratio of air to fuel by weight (or
more accurately, mass). Most engines will burn air-fuel ratios of 8:1 to 18: 1.
Eight-to-one being very rich and eighteen-to-one being very lean.
The "chemically correct" (otherwise known as stoichiometric) mixture is about 15:1.
This is the mixture ratio where you would expect to find peak EGT in a perfect
burn, but atomization inefficiencies put the peak EGT ratio probably closer
to 13 or 14 to 1.
You might say, "So what's this gobbledygook about ratios? I don't have a direct
air-fuel ratio indicator in my plane." That's true, but it will help in understanding
the different leaning procedures on different fuel metering/distributing
systems.
The most common fuel distribution systems found in general aviation are: carburetor,
pressure carb, Continental fuel injection, and Bendix fuel injection. A
brief explanation of the operating principles of each system will be important
in understanding the flight management portion of the pilot's duties.
Carburetor
The carburetor is a fairly simple device that meters fuel according to the pressure
difference between the downstream side of the fuel jet and the net pressure
of the fuel in the float bowl (affected by net bowl vent and bowl fuel head
pressure).
This is accomplished using Bernoulli's Principle (venturi in the carb throat) and
is affected most by the volume of air flow through the carburetor. The system
is, therefore, not very good at compensating for changes in air density (weight)
caused by any factor, most noticeably, altitude.
The fuel jet (main jet as it's sometimes called) is calibrated to give the correct
rich mixture for the particular engine at full power, sea level, on a standard
day. A variable valve in series between the float bowl and the calibrated
jet most usually accomplishes mixture control. (Although some accomplish mixture
control functions by varying the bowl vent pressure, either way, the result
is the same).
Pressure Carburetor
Don't let it fool you. The name implies similarity to the aforementioned carburetor
but the similarity ends there (as anyone who has had to pay for one will
tell you).
The pressure carburetor is a fairly complex unit that controls fuel/air ratios
by sensing pressure differences in a venturi and ram air pressure in what's called
a bullet (for what it does to your pocket book if you have to replace the
bellows inside).
The ram-air pressure is highly dependent on air density (weight) and is therefore
much better at altitude compensation than the carburetor. Mixture is controlled
by manual adjustment of an internal air control valve that varies fuel discharge
pressure. This is essentially a single-point fuel injection system [similar
to the Throttle-Body Injection (TBI) system used in GM Astro Vans, etc]
Continental Fuel Injection
in the naturally aspirated engines (except the 10 & G10-550) this system is purely
mechanical. It determines fuel/air ratios solely by reference to pump RPM,
throttle, and mixture valve position. It, therefore, has no way of sensing density
altitude whatsoever.
Once the pilot sets up the engine for a particular air density (altitude), minor
throttle and RPM adjustments will not require a mixture adjustment. Properly
adjusted and rigged, this system provides correct rich mixture for the particular
engine at full power and climb at sea level only.
Any operation at altitude requires the pilot to manually control the mixture to
the optimum setting for the particular MAP and RPM. This is important; any significant
change in air density (generally altitude) requires a corresponding
mixture adjustment by the pilot.
Turbocharged versions of the Continental Fuel Injection System use an aneroid to
sense upper deck pressure and adjust fuel pressure, hence fuel now, accordingly,
and therefore don't require the constant adjustment with air density changes.
The GIO and I0-550 use a similar aneroid but sense ambient air (hence altitude)
instead of upper deck pressure.
Bendix Fuel Injection
These systems are very similar, in operation and design, to the pressure carburetor
(including cost, ouch). Enhancements have been made, however, that make them
more accurate and easier to operate.
This injection system, like the pressure carburetor, is a fairly complex unit,
which controls fuel-air ratios by sensing pressure differences in a venturi and
ram air pressure in the bullet.
Most of these systems, however, do not have the AMC (automatic mixture control)
bellows in the bullet. This makes the unit somewhat sensitive to air density
(weight) changes, providing some altitude compensation. However, manual mixture
control is still required by the pilot at altitude for optimum performance.
A few of the Bendix Servos do have the AMC bellows in the bullet (some turbocharged
engines) and compensate almost totally for the air density changes encountered
from sea level to as high as 30,000 feet and sometimes higher.
Operation Block to Block
So how do these differences in systems affect the way you operate the engine, in
particular the mixture? Let's go over four basic engine operation phases and
how to operate each system in each phase.
The four operational phases covered will include; taxi & run-up, takeoff & climb,
cruise, and descent & landing. First, though, let's look at the basic mixture
requirements of each phase from an operational standpoint.
Taxi & Run-up
The main consideration on taxi and run-up mixture control is smooth operation and
the prevention of spark plug fouling. A properly leaned engine can easily mean
the difference between a good mag check and a bad one. Fouled plugs or an
overly rich mixture will decrease power and cause bad mag checks. Ground leaning
will help keep the plugs clean.
Takeoff and Climb
NOTE: All properly adjusted, supercharged and turbocharged engines are to be at
full rich for takeoff. There are two major concerns in adjusting and monitoring
the mixture in takeoff (full power operations) and climb mode. Power and Exhaust
Gas Temperature (EGT) or Turbine Inlet Temperature (TIT).
Best Power mixture comes at about 125oF. Most general aviation engines have the
capability to carry away the heat generated at Best Power mixtures up to about
70-75 percent power. Above this power setting, very few, if any, of the engines
and engine installations we operate can use this mixture setting because of
the high levels of heat energy being passed through the engine.
This is especially true for takeoff and climb. The higher RPM and manifold pressures
increase the heat passing through the engine in a given time frame (i.e.
more combustion and exhaust scavenge events per second), putting more heat into
the engine.
There are two ways to decrease this heat and cool things down. Reduce power (fewer
combustion-exhaust scavenge events) or cool the charge in the combustion and
exhaust events. The idea of takeoff and climb is power, therefore, the first
option is not so desirable.
By default, the other option becomes the method of choice-cooling the combustion-exhaust
event. This is done nowadays by enriching the mixture. Some of the "tried
and true" will remember ADI systems (Anti Detonant Injection-usually a mixture
of water and alcohol) in some of the old round engines and V-12s. ADI does
the same thing as enriching the mixture.
At high or emergency power settings, ADI fluid was injected into the intake air.
Some models of the R-2800 (e.g. F4-U and P-47D) could pull about 80 in. Hg MAP
with the ADI system engaged and only about 55-60 in. Hg with it off. It got
them an extra 300 to 400 horsepower when it was needed most.
Contrary to popular belief, actual EGT or TIT temperatures are important to monitor,
especially at takeoff and climb. Many an engine has annealed the rings because
combustion temperatures got too hot. Rings are annealed (lose their hardness)
by prolonged and elevated temperatures.
As temperatures in an iron alloy (used in piston rings) increase, the time to anneal
the alloy decreases. Therefore, the less time spent at elevated temperatures,
the better. In practical engine operating terms, keep CHT's below 400oF
and TIT's below 1425oF for this phase.
EGT temps will vary according to probe placement, but a good rule of thumb in climb
settings is to set the mixture 200oF rich of the peak mixture temperature
you would get at the 70 percent power setting. This will give good power but
adequate cooling for climb.
Those of you running intercooler systems on your turbocharged engine take note:
If your fuel system does not fully compensate for changes in air density, the
fuel system must be set up again after installation of the intercooler.
Fuel systems that do not sense air density from the intercooler will run the mixture
too lean in takeoff end climb (in the neighborhood of 1500oF or higher)
and will anneal the rings in 50 to 100 hours (oil consumption starts to go up
and compressions start to drop).
These systems must be set to give a full fuel flow at an equivalent full power
MAP (generally 3-4 in. Hg below redline). This compensates for the higher air
density brought by the intercooler. I have brought many a plane back to the shop
to pull all six cylinders for this very reason.
Cruise
Best Power is used mainly in cruise when you want speed and is shown in power charts
under the "Best Power" curve. There is also a "Best Economy" curve that
is a leaner mixture used with the same power setting and gives slightly less power
than the "Best Power" setting (by experience, somewhere around 2-3 percent
lower fuel flow or 3 to 5 knot airspeed loss).
The name is as implied. It gives the best economy for the chosen power setting
but also gives higher EGTs. "Best Economy" mixture settings generally are not
given for power settings above 65 percent because of the potential for preignition
and detonation.
Safe EGT levels vary directly with the engine power setting. At low power settings
(65 percent and less) the mixture may be adjusted to give best economy because
of the engine's ability to carry away the heat energy' at these lower settings.
At higher power settings, the mixture is adjusted to allow for extra fuel to help
cool the engine. This is because of the engine's inability to carry away the
heat energy developed at lean mixtures with high power settings (70 percent
and higher).
This is also the reason most operating handbooks specify seemingly overly rich
mixtures for climb and high cruise power settings, especially on the larger engines.
Descent and Landing
Descent is similar to climb in that the mixture must be watched closely in systems
which don't compensate well for changes in air density (carburetors and naturally
aspirated Continental Fuel Injection systems). The main problem here is
the reverse of climb: mixture becoming too lean as air density increases with
a decrease in altitude.
In descents to the pattern altitude from 10,000 to 12,000 feet, if the mixture
is not increased, opening of the throttle at level-off can be accompanied by spits
and sputters and possibly an engine that quits from fuel starvation.
Good rule of thumb here: set the mixture to maintain the same EGT/TIT as cruise
minus 50oF to the rich side in high power descents (65 percent or higher) and
smooth engine running in low power descents (50-60 percent). If you don't have
an EGT gauge, enrich the mixture to keep the engine smooth plus a little extra,
as you enter the pattern or level off.
Most normal descents are accomplished at low power (50-60 percent) where running
close to peak EGT (25oF) isn't a problem because of the lower temps. A smooth
engine is a happy engine and temps are kept up to help stave off the "shock"
cooling gremlin.
Density compensating systems will do a much better job of mixture control in descent
but still need monitoring and an occasional adjustment. For landing, the
mixture should be set for a position that will allow for full power operation
for the particular system. This is to provide sufficient fuel for an immediate
response if a go-around or evasive maneuver is needed.
Flight and Mixture Control
In [the next section], we'll go through these four flight phases for each particular
fuel system. Keep in mind the time delay (5-10 seconds) for an EGT or TIT
system reading to stabilize wherever accurate mixture adjustments are required.
Also note that it is important to have your EGT or TIT gauge calibrated regularly.
Have it checked at each annual if possible, and sooner if you fly more than 150
hours between inspections. This is especially important for turbocharged engines
and naturally aspirated engines that fly regularly at altitudes below 5,000
feet MSL.
Or those of you who have Lycoming engines, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a copy
of S.I. 1094D, fuel mixture leaning procedure, and look over the procedures
for your particular engine. You'll find that this Instruction will vary substantially
from the POH or Airplane Flight Manual for larger, high-horsepower engines.
2. Mixture Control by Type
[In Part 1] we gave a general mixture operational overview. In parttwo of this
effort, we will detail the power settings and leaning procedures for each fuel
system type in various flight modes. Note that this was written by a very experienced
test pilot of GA aircraft, but mixture management is still an area of
some debate.
Carburetors
Note: The following advice is for naturally aspirated engines only. All turbocharged
and turbo-normalized, carbureted engines must be at full rich for takeoff.
Taxi and Runup: Leaning during taxi is sometimes required to prevent plug fouling
and/or to provide smooth operation, especially at highaltitude airports. At
altitude (3000 feet and higher), leaning is definitely required to get an accurate
mag check.
Rich mixtures can give mag drops of 200 RPM and of only 75 to 100 RPM when leaned.
To find the best mixture for mag checks, lean until the engine gets rough
then enrichen back to highest RPM. Readjust the throttle to the mag-check RPM
and do your check.
Some carburetor systems provide some challenges to this simple procedure in cold
weather. The most common example that comes to mind is the 0-470 in the C180
and C182. This is a great engine/airframe combination but can get cantankerous
in very cold weather.
The carburetor sits down away from the engine where it can't pick up much heat.
Therefore, it will ice up a little easier and in very cold weather (low teens
and subzero) has some problem getting the fuel to atomize once it is distributed
into the induction airflow.
This can cause lean mixtures of sufficient magnitude to give really rotten mag
drops; bad enough to fool some into thinking that the mag has just gone south
with the geese. The best way to compensate for this malady is to pull the carb
heat on, lean the mixture as previously described, adjust throttle to the mag
check RPM and try again, all with carb heat "on."
The mag drop will be a little higher than normal (125-150 instead of 75-100), but
will be smooth if everything with the mags is okay. This is to be expected
because of the hotter induction air (causing lower engine power) with carb heat
in the "on" position. (Carb heat in for TO.)
Takeoff and Climb: Leaning for takeoff (non-turbo) is a very important pre-takeoff
item at high-altitude airports (higher than 3,000 feet). Unfortunately this
is a practice still not exercised by some. Proper leaning at takeoff will shorten
takeoff rolls and increase climb rates.
At the high-altitude airports in the Rockies, for example, proper leaning can mean
the difference between a successful takeoff or ending up in the trees at the
end of the runway. Proper high-altitude leaning can shorten takeoff rolls by
500 feet and increase climb rates by 200-300 feet per minute.
Leaning should be accomplished just before the takeoff roll. At full or near full
throttle, lean to peak RPM then enrichen only slightly (barely enough to see
an RPM drop, no more than 25).
This will be best power for takeoff, plus just a little extra fuel for cooling
(cooling isn't quite as much of a problem because of the lower temperatures produced
at the lower power found at higher altitudes). The same procedure should
be used for fixed-pitch or constant-speed props. If an EGT is used, it should
be set for about 150oF rich of peak. At sea level, of course, go full rich.
Climb is not much different. The idea here is to keep the mixture at best power
plus about 50oF Mixture adjustment (re-leaning) is required about every 2,000
feet of altitude change for maximum performance and smooth operation above 5,000
feet density altitude.
As altitude increases, and engine power decreases to 65 percent or lower, the mixture
can be leaned much closer to peak EGT (within 50oF). This will help maintain
power at the lower settings where best power mixture gets closer to peak
EGT.
Cruise: This is the easy part. Set cruise power and lean to 50-75oF rich of peak
for settings of 65 percent or greater and 25-50oF rich of peak for settings
below 65 percent. This will give you the best mixture setting for longevity of
your engine and good performance for cruise.
As always, if the engine gets rough before you reach peak EGT, enrichen the mixture
until the engine gets smooth again and then enrichen a little more. This
is also the procedure to follow if you don't have an EGT gauge. This will put
you slightly on the rich side of peak EGT.
If your engine is turbocharged (TR182, for example) run 75oF rich of peak TIT at
65 percent power or greater, and 50oF rich of peak below 65 percent. Anything
above 75 percent power, should be at least 200oF rich of peak or full rich,
and no hotter than 1500 F, whichever comes first.
Running at peak EGT anywhere above 55 percent power is not recommended because
of uneven fuel distribution and this high temperature operating zone has the smallest
margin for mixture errors.
Again, some engines can be very difficult in subzero (Fahrenheit) weather. You
may have to fly your 0-470 with the carb heat on just to get the mixture to atomize
and the engine to run smooth. This is where a Carb Air Temp gauge comes
in real handy.
Descent and Landing: Since the carburetor is rotten at air density sensing, the
mixture will need to be enriched every 2,000 feet or so during the descent. If
you have an EGT gauge, you can enrichen the EGT 50oF lower than cruise and maintain
this EGT all the way to the pattern.
Once you level Off, enrichen the mixture to the approximate position (by your own
experience) that you would need if you were taking off at the same airport.
From here on out, the mixture can stay where it is until shutdown.
Pressure Carburetors
Taxi and runup isn't much different than normal carbureted engines. Lean for smooth
running to prevent plug fouling and follow the same runup procedures. At
mag-check RPM, lean the mixture until the engine gets rough or loses RPM, whichever
comes first, then enrichen back to highest RPM. Readjust the throttle to
the mag-check RPM and do your check.
Takeoff and Climb: For all high-power operations (75 percent power or greater)
below 5,000 feet density altitude, the mixture control should be full rich. All
takeoffs (except density altitudes of about 8,000 feet or higher) should also
be full rich.
The pressure carb is pretty good at sensing actual air density and adjusting mixture
accordingly for fulland high-power. For climbing at higher density altitudes
where power is limited to below 75 percent, the mixture can be leaned. For
long cylinder/piston/ring life, keep EGTs at 1425oF or lower, preferably around
1350oF and do not exceed 400oF cylinder head temp.
Cruise: Setup cruise mixture to no less than 50oF rich of peak at power settings
of 65-70 percent and 75 to 100oF rich at 70-75 percent power. If you don't have
an EGT, run book settings plus one-half to one gallon per hour more to extend
cylinder life. In all cases hold CHTs no more than 400oF.
At power settings of 50-65 percent some manufacturers will allow you to run at
peak EGT. This may be okay for 50-55 percent, but it will prove easier on your
engine (and pocket book) to run, at minimum, 50oF rich of peak at 60-65 percent.
For supercharged or turbocharged engines add 25oF to the above EGT/TIT figures
at minimum.
Descent: For descent, subtract 50oF from the cruise EGT-TIT by enriching the mixture.
The AMC bellows should keep the air-fuel ratio pretty stable throughout
the entire descent.
Some slight adjustment may be required occasionally, but a healthy pressure carb
will compensate for air density changes, hence altitude, marvelously. Before
applying power at level off, or once in the pattern, enrich the mixture to the
setting needed for full power at that density altitude.
Some leaning may be required for taxi at high density altitude airports. Lean as
you would for taxi before takeoff unless extra cooling before shutdown is required.
Continental Fuel Injection
Taxi and runup will be almost exactly the same as carbureted engines due to this
system's lack of air density sensing capability. Lean for smooth running during
taxi and lean the same as the carburetors for runupset mag-check RPM, lean
until the engine looses RPM, then enrichen back to highest RPM. Readjust the
throttle to the mag check RPM and do your check.
During this procedure the engine should lose RPM before it gets rough. If it doesn't
this is usually an indication that the system needs a little attention (dirty
nozzles or injector line obstructions). This is true of injected engines
in any flight phase.
If it's really noticeable (like a low frequency rumble or panel vibration that
comes and goes), it would be a good idea to get it checked out before you go any
further. Obstructions in a line or nozzle can destroy a cylinder in less than
an hour and may even cause complete piston failure in the takeoff or climb
phase.
Takeoff and Climb: Naturally aspirated engines, as stated in the description, have
no air density sensing mechanism (exceptions are the 10 and GIO-550, addressed
later). For takeoffs from sea level to 3,000 feet density altitude, use full
rich mixture. For takeoff at density altitudes of 4,000 feet or higher, adhere
to the altitude fuel flow settings on the face of the fuel flow gauge. If
its not marked, consult the POH.
Be sure to use density altitude. Using only pressure altitude will give inaccurate
air-fuel ratios on all but standard temperature days. If for some reason your
flow gauge or POH doesn't give these figures (some old installations don't)
lean as follows: Just before takeoff, at full or near full throttle, lean to
peak RPM then enrichen 2-1/2 to 3 gallons per hour (if your gauge is calibrated
only in psi, enrichen two psi).
If you have an EGT, enrich 150oF rich of peak. If your en- gine reaches red-line
(constant-speed prop) before you get to full throttle, pull the throttle back
to 100 RPM below red-line and follow the above procedure. This will give you
best power for takeoff and climb for the first one or two thousand feet.
For best climb performance, the mixture will need to be monitored and adjusted
every 1,000 feet. If you have an EGT gauge, keep the EGT at the same temperature
it was on take-off. This will give you good perfor- mance and an economical
climb up to about 10,000 feet. At this point re- check peak and adjust for about
50oF rich of peak for 10,000 feet and higher.
The I0- and GIO-550 series engines have a bellows similar to the aneroid bellows
on the turbocharged fuel pumps that compensate for changes in air pressure.
If set up properly, these 550 systems do a pretty good job of mixture control
and are left at the full-rich position for takeoff and climb until well above
12-13,000 feet.
EGTs on these engines generally run in the low 1400s for takeoff and climb and,
therefore, don't need leaning even on fairly hot days. The little extra fuel
pumped in this case will be needed to help cool the en- gine anyway.
The turbocharged Continental fuel system is flown like all other turbo- charged-supercharged
systems, with one exception. Set full rich for take- off, but for
climb, the engine may be leaned to the climb settings on the fuel flow gauge
face.
For top-end longevity, however, keep climb TITs at or under 1400 degrees F This
may give you a fuel flow setting of one to one and a half gallons per hour higher
than book but will pay off in the long run.
Cruise: Cruise is not much differ- ent for any naturally aspirated, fuel injected
engine or pressure carburetor equipped engine but it is worth repeating here.
Set up cruise mixture to no less than 50oF rich of peak at power settings of
65-70 percent and 75 to 100oF rich at 70-75 percent power.
If you don't have an EGT, run book settings plus one-half to one gallon per hour
more to extend cylinder life. In all cases, hold CHTs to no more than 400oF.
At power settings of 50-65 percent some manufacturers will allow you to run at
peak EGT. This may be OK for 50-55 percent, but it will prove easier on your
engine Land pocKet book) to run 50oF rich of peak at 60-65 percent.
For turbocharged engines add 25oF to the above EGT-TIT figures. The 10-550 series
is again an exception here. The book allows the engine to be run lean of peak
at low power settings. The fuel system is designed for the very accurate fuel
distribution required for this type of operation, but must be maintained well
to keep the engine healthy.
Remember, with the standard Continental fuel injection system on naturally aspirated
engines, any altitude change will require a corresponding mixture adjustment.
The Continental engine in the early Piper Malibu (TSIO-520-BE) is an exception
to all of the above. This engine is run either full rich or lean of peak,
no in between. Run it by the POH.
Descent and Landing: For descent, enrichen the mixture about 50 F and maintain
the same EGT while descending. Remember, the metering assembly is leaning the
mixture when you pull back the throttle to maintain the same manifold pressure,
so you will need a corresponding mixture adjustment to keep the EGT the same.
Upon pattern entry, the mixture should be enriched to the approximate position
for a full power setting at that air density (pressure altitude and temperature),
in case full power is needed.
Bendix Fuel Injection
Taxi and Runup: A number of engines with this fuel system like to foul plugs while
taxiing. At the lower RPMs, a fuel valve attached to the throttle valve system
sets the fuel-air ratio.
The fuel servo does not sense air density or flow until the engine gets to about
1,700-2,000 RPM. This necessitates manual leaning until approximately 2,000
RPM at which point the throttle valve rotates fully open and allows the servo
to regulate the fuel-air ratio.
Leaning the mixture to peak RPM during taxi and runup will keep the plugs clean
and give accurate mag checks at runup.
Takeoff and Climb: This system compensates pretty well for changes in air density,
especially the models with the AMC (Automatic Mixture Control) (almost exactly
the same as the pressure carb).
Most Bendix systems on naturally aspirated engines, however, have no AMC, [just
a simple, pitot-like sensor] to sense ram air pressure in the induction. This
still gives an accurate enough reference for determining air density and does
a pretty good job of controlling air-fuel ratios. Still, some minor mixture adjustments
must still be made for altitude operations (4,000 feet and higher).
Just before [entering] the runway, or just before the takeoff roll, run up to full
or near full power and lean to peak EGT or until the RPM drops slightly. Enrichen
the mixture 200oF (if you have an EGT) or one and one-half GPH for four-cylinder
engines and two to three GPH for sixcylinder engines. This setting
will give best power and cooling combination for takeoff and climb.
During climb, the servo will compensate fairly well for air density changes. A
minor mixture adjustment every 2,000 to 3,000 feet will be needed to keep the
EGT at the same temperature until cruise altitude is reached.
Again, cruise is not much different for any naturally aspirated, fuel injected
or pressure carb equipped engine. Set up cruise mixture as described previously
in this article.
When changing altitudes during cruise with this system, no mixture adjustments
should need to be made unless the change is more than about 2,000 feet.
Descent and Landing: This is also the same as other injected engines except mixture
adjustments during descent are not as frequent as with the Continental system.
Enrichen the mixture 50 F just before descent and adjust to keep it the
same until level off.
Throttle adjustments for descents will need to be made only about every 2,000 feet.
If you don't have an EGT installed, enrichen one gallon per hour for four
cylinder engines or one and one half GPH for six cylinders and maintain the same
MAP and fuel flow for descent.
Once in the pattern, adjust the mixture to the approximate position for a full
power setting at that air density (pressure altitude and temperature) in case
full power is needed. Lean for taxi if at high altitude.
Lean of Peak Operation
Most pilot operational handbooks do not address LOP operation. Lycoming ' particularly,
does not like it-although they authorize operating at peak EGT in many
engines at a limited power level.
Continental is less against it, since they designed the 10-550BE used in the original
Malibus to operate this way, and have comments on LOP operation in some
of their fuel injected engine handbooks.
Most carbureted engines will not operate very well LOP if at all due to less than
optimum fuel flows to the individual cylinders.
That said, LOP is a viable option for fuel injected engines-even turbos with the
proper engine monito~ing instrumentation (engine monitors) and proper pilot
technique. When done properly, LOP can extend engine life with cooler operating
temps compared to running at high power rich of peak. But again, proper operational
training is key.
One source of such training is offered by Advanced Pilot Seminars, www.advancedpilot.com. Ph 888359-4264 (this is the phone number for GAMI, in Ada, Oklahoma who hosts the seminars).
POH Discrepancies
A note about the differences between this article and what you will see in most
POHs. The fuel flows given in the above advice, as most of you have probably
noticed, are a bit richer (higher) than the POH numbers.
The manufacturers, in an effort to give us better performing aircraft, have usually
used numbers that allow for the most performance and/ or the greatest range
for a given flight profile (see illustration below). However, these numbers
often do not lend themselves to long engine life.
There is unfortunately a battle between the marketing department and the engineering
department in a given aircraft manufacturer, and the marketing people usually
prevail. Don't believe for a minute that the numbers listed by the competition
don't significantly influence what ends up in the POH.
Some of the numbers may well be actually obtained by a test pilot in a perfect
airplane with a perfect engine. Then all the other parameters are extrapolated
mathematically.
If you look at the engine maker's fuel flow, and other important engine operational
numbers (as opposed to the airplane manufacturer) in their performance charts
you are more likely to see fuel flow numbers significantly higher for a given
percent of power. Excess fuel in aircraft engines plays a significant role
in cooling the cylinders at high power settings.
There is a high engine longevity price for marginally higher cruise speeds and
climb rates. Remembering who pays that price will help you get the life you want
from your engine, if you fly (not fry) with care.
Reprinted courtesy of LIGHT PLANE MAINTENANCE * APRIL/MAY 2004
To subscribe to LIGHT PLANE MAINTENANCE magazine, send an email to lightplane[at]palmcoastd.com
(replace "[at]" with "@" when ready to mail in order to reduce
spam on the airways)
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137185#137185
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> |
Back to the original post is an excerpt from the old commander archives and Republic
CB Archives by Chris Schuerman with a blurb on the PS%. Chris too believes
the mixture control should not be touched. When I asked him why he said "someone
told me".
At the end of Chris's post are contacts for calibration of your pressure carb.
The excerpt is in pdf format as an attachment
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137187#137187
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ps_5bdpercent20opspercent20big_148.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | "N395V" <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com> |
> HI MILT. I am not picking on you, but need to make one other correction.
Not to worry JB I have a thick skin especially when my espousings are based on
science and data.
This is quite an important topic for any bathtub commander owner and neededs to
be thoroughly discussed.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137190#137190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
Good Evening Milt,
I am beginning to wonder if the Commander list has decided that I do not
belong here. I mentioned a lot of what has been discussed here a few days ago,
but there has not been a single comment made either disagreeing with what I
said or agreeing with my position.
Nevertheless, my thick skin allows me to try again!
The PS5c has always needed to be manually leaned and it is definitely a
"Pressure Carburetor."
There was mention in the attachment of the Advanced Pilot's Seminar at Ada,
Oklahoma.
I also would agree that attendance at that program is well worthwhile, but I
am amazed that the author recommends running any engine fifty rich of peak
after attending that course. Fifty rich of peak is OK for those cases were it
is needed to get adequate power to operate the airplane, but at any other
time, fifty rich of peak EGT is about the hottest place the engine can be
operated. It is a bit below best power which is why it is recommended so often
by
the sales department of any manufacturer, but it is certainly NOT a place that
would automatically be easy on the engine.
I think the author will agree that running cool is a good idea. The engine
can be run coolest by running well lean of peak. Whether or not that most
desirable of operations can be conducted is dependent on the quality of the fuel
distribution between the various cylinders. Thus the need for balanced
injectors!
Lindbergh was messing with that with his three throat carburetor before
leaving for Paris. This is not new stuff and it is not rocket science.
During the last fifty years, there have been many attempts to dumb up the
operation of our engines.
That is why you see the various setups that tell the pilot to run the engine
at full rich and to only touch the mixture when he/she wants to shut it
down. While all those efforts have been admirable, we still do not have any fuel
control unit that works that well.
If someone does not feel they can spend the time attending the two and half
day class at Ada, they should try the home study course. If they don't want to
pay the price to take the home study course, they should at least read the
free stuff written and freely presented by one of the instructors, John
Deakin. He has written a complete set of articles about everything that has been
discussed in this thread and presented it free to all as a series of articles
on AvWeb. Contact him at: _jdeakin(at)advancedpilot.com and_
(mailto:jdeakin(at)advancedpilot.com%20and) he will happily tell you where to download all of his
articles free of charge!
The knowledge is there. It just needs to be studied by anyone planning to
operate any high powered piston engine.
Incidentally, I'll bet you will find Chris S. will agree with my assessment!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 9/29/2007 7:08:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com writes:
At the end of Chris's post are contacts for calibration of your pressure
carb.
The excerpt is in pdf format as an attachment
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Carburetor? |
| From: | yourtcfg(at)aol.com |
HI MILT
Sorry, but I stand by my statement.? Manually leaning a properly adjusted pressure
carb is, wrong.? As I had stated in an earlier post (and as said?in the referenced
article), it is possible to do it, but why??? Properly adjusted, the
AMC unit does a great job.? I just flew my 680E 2800nm, 16hrs to the fly-in in
TX? I fueled the outboard tanks and after about an?hour on the main, switched?to
them? They ran 1.5 hours and just as I was reaching for the selector?switch,
the LH engine sputtered.? I no sooner switched that engine tha the RH sputtered.?
The point is, with properly adj carbs, they are consistent enough to use
exactly he same amount of fuel.? Not science, but?imperical information.? I
have flown many bathtub Commanders and have yet to fly one with an EGT.? Short
of that installation, leaning the carbs would be a random guess at best.? Is
it possible to squeeze a couple of extra gallons per?hour out of your engines,
maybe.? But if your Commander operating budget is so
cramped that three or four GPH will make a difference, I strongly suggest you
sell your Commander.? BTW, I don't believe that running over square is bad, (it
happens on every TO), or that you can shock cool and engine with the throttle
(rapid mixture change will however) or that running LOP is bad in a normally
aspirated engine.? But manually leaning you AMC carbs is a bad idea, not?recomended
by the manufacture of the carb, engine or airframe?and completely?unnecessary;-)??jb???
-----Original Message-----
From: N395V <airboss(at)excaliburaviation.com>
Sent: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 5:01 pm
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Pressure Carburetor?
The following is a reprint from "Light Plane Maintenance"
Discussing aircraft mixture control systems. It is lengthy but a good read,
especially the section on pressure carbs and leaning method by type of fuel
distribution system.
As you can see from the article pressure carbs require manual mixture adjustment
to get the most out of your engine.
JB I think you are a bit premature with the use of the word "wrong"
I do not doubt that you and many Commander pilots and many older pilots were
taught that the mixture control on PS5 pressure carbs is simply an on off
switch. That concept is just plain wrong and needs to be questioned rather than
just passed on as gospel.
In the old days fuel was a cheap coolant and leaving a pressure carb at full
rich was acceptable practice. It even made its way into some manuals although I
do not recall seeing it in a commander manual.
Mr Bendix did not attach the mixture control to a "METERING NEEDLE VALVE" for
the purpose of on and off. If on/off were his intent he would have put a ball
valve on the carb inlet.
This concept is just as dated as
Don't run oversquare MP>RPM/1000
Rapid throttle reduction causes shock cooling.. Data clearly shows flight into
precipitation causes greater mor rapid cooling.
Do not run LOP.. Once again date clearly refutes this.
Any way the article follows.
Mixture Control
by LIGHT PLANE MAINTENANCE staff
Part 1 - Mixture Control Systems
Here we go again, another article on mixture management destined to tell me
things I already know. Well, maybe. It's entirely possible that some information
will seem repetitious, but, then again, redundancy in aviation isn't such a bad
thing either. judging from some reader questions, such a revisit to the topic is
warranted.
Mixture Control is written from the pilot's perspective, by a professional
test-pilot, and is designed to answer the why, when, where and how of mixture
control and proper leaning procedure for various fuel delivery systems. It is an
encyclopedia of fuel management. To the layman, it translates into verse as "How
to avoid burning a hole in your wallet".
Inspite of the proliferation of digital instrumentation, the Basic EGT is still
an outstanding instrument for monitoring Fuel Flow vs Percent Power. Most of the
material in this article is based on this basic level of instrumentation and
control. Units of measurement remain in the original Imperial units (oF, for
example) because over 60% of aircraft in use are more than 50 years old.
Air-Fuel Ratios/Distribution
In general terms, mixture is defined as the ratio of air to fuel by weight (or
more accurately, mass). Most engines will burn air-fuel ratios of 8:1 to 18: 1.
Eight-to-one being very rich and eighteen-to-one being very lean.
The "chemically correct" (otherwise known as stoichiometric) mixture is about
15:1. This is the mixture ratio where you would expect to find peak EGT in a
perfect burn, but atomization inefficiencies put the peak EGT ratio probably
closer to 13 or 14 to 1.
You might say, "So what's this gobbledygook about ratios? I don't have a direct
air-fuel ratio indicator in my plane." That's true, but it will help in
understanding the different leaning procedures on different fuel
metering/distributing systems.
The most common fuel distribution systems found in general aviation are:
carburetor, pressure carb, Continental fuel injection, and Bendix fuel
injection. A brief explanation of the operating principles of each system will
be important in understanding the flight management portion of the pilot's
duties.
Carburetor
The carburetor is a fairly simple device that meters fuel according to the
pressure difference between the downstream side of the fuel jet and the net
pressure of the fuel in the float bowl (affected by net bowl vent and bowl fuel
head pressure).
This is accomplished using Bernoulli's Principle (venturi in the carb throat)
and is affected most by the volume of air flow through the carburetor. The
system is, therefore, not very good at compensating for changes in air density
(weight) caused by any factor, most noticeably, altitude.
The fuel jet (main jet as it's sometimes called) is calibrated to give the
correct rich mixture for the particular engine at full power, sea level, on a
standard day. A variable valve in series between the float bowl and the
calibrated jet most usually accomplishes mixture control. (Although some
accomplish mixture control functions by varying the bowl vent pressure, either
way, the result is the same).
Pressure Carburetor
Don't let it fool you. The name implies similarity to the aforementioned
carburetor but the similarity ends there (as anyone who has had to pay for one
will tell you).
The pressure carburetor is a fairly complex unit that controls fuel/air ratios
by sensing pressure differences in a venturi and ram air pressure in what's
called a bullet (for what it does to your pocket book if you have to replace the
bellows inside).
The ram-air pressure is highly dependent on air density (weight) and is
therefore much better at altitude compensation than the carburetor. Mixture is
controlled by manual adjustment of an internal air control valve that varies
fuel discharge pressure. This is essentially a single-point fuel injection
system [similar to the Throttle-Body Injection (TBI) system used in GM Astro
Vans, etc]
Continental Fuel Injection
in the naturally aspirated engines (except the 10 & G10-550) this system is
purely mechanical. It determines fuel/air ratios solely by reference to pump
RPM, throttle, and mixture valve position. It, therefore, has no way of sensing
density altitude whatsoever.
Once the pilot sets up the engine for a particular air density (altitude), minor
throttle and RPM adjustments will not require a mixture adjustment. Properly
adjusted and rigged, this system provides correct rich mixture for the
particular engine at full power and climb at sea level only.
Any operation at altitude requires the pilot to manually control the mixture to
the optimum setting for the particular MAP and RPM. This is important; any
significant change in air density (generally altitude) requires a corresponding
mixture adjustment by the pilot.
Turbocharged versions of the Continental Fuel Injection System use an aneroid to
sense upper deck pressure and adjust fuel pressure, hence fuel now, accordingly,
and therefore don't require the constant adjustment with air density changes.
The GIO and I0-550 use a similar aneroid but sense ambient air (hence altitude)
instead of upper deck pressure.
Bendix Fuel Injection
These systems are very similar, in operation and design, to the pressure
carburetor (including cost, ouch). Enhancements have been made, however, that
make them more accurate and easier to operate.
This injection system, like the pressure carburetor, is a fairly complex unit,
which controls fuel-air ratios by sensing pressure differences in a venturi and
ram air pressure in the bullet.
Most of these systems, however, do not have the AMC (automatic mixture control)
bellows in the bullet. This makes the unit somewhat sensitive to air density
(weight) changes, providing some altitude compensation. However, manual mixture
control is still required by the pilot at altitude for optimum performance.
A few of the Bendix Servos do have the AMC bellows in the bullet (some
turbocharged engines) and compensate almost totally for the air density changes
encountered from sea level to as high as 30,000 feet and sometimes higher.
Operation Block to Block
So how do these differences in systems affect the way you operate the engine, in
particular the mixture? Let's go over four basic engine operation phases and how
to operate each system in each phase.
The four operational phases covered will include; taxi & run-up, takeoff &
climb, cruise, and descent & landing. First, though, let's look at the basic
mixture requirements of each phase from an operational standpoint.
Taxi & Run-up
The main consideration on taxi and run-up mixture control is smooth operation
and the prevention of spark plug fouling. A properly leaned engine can easily
mean the difference between a good mag check and a bad one. Fouled plugs or an
overly rich mixture will decrease power and cause bad mag checks. Ground leaning
will help keep the plugs clean.
Takeoff and Climb
NOTE: All properly adjusted, supercharged and turbocharged engines are to be at
full rich for takeoff. There are two major concerns in adjusting and monitoring
the mixture in takeoff (full power operations) and climb mode. Power and Exhaust
Gas Temperature (EGT) or Turbine Inlet Temperature (TIT).
Best Power mixture comes at about 125oF. Most general aviation engines have the
capability to carry away the heat generated at Best Power mixtures up to about
70-75 percent power. Above this power setting, very few, if any, of the engines
and engine installations we operate can use this mixture setting because of the
high levels of heat energy being passed through the engine.
This is especially true for takeoff and climb. The higher RPM and manifold
pressures increase the heat passing through the engine in a given time frame
(i.e. more combustion and exhaust scavenge events per second), putting more heat
into the engine.
There are two ways to decrease this heat and cool things down. Reduce power
(fewer combustion-exhaust scavenge events) or cool the charge in the combustion
and exhaust events. The idea of takeoff and climb is power, therefore, the first
option is not so desirable.
By default, the other option becomes the method of choice-cooling the
combustion-exhaust event. This is done nowadays by enriching the mixture. Some
of the "tried and true" will remember ADI systems (Anti Detonant
Injection-usually a mixture of water and alcohol) in some of the old round
engines and V-12s. ADI does the same thing as enriching the mixture.
At high or emergency power settings, ADI fluid was injected into the intake air.
Some models of the R-2800 (e.g. F4-U and P-47D) could pull about 80 in. Hg MAP
with the ADI system engaged and only about 55-60 in. Hg with it off. It got them
an extra 300 to 400 horsepower when it was needed most.
Contrary to popular belief, actual EGT or TIT temperatures are important to
monitor, especially at takeoff and climb. Many an engine has annealed the rings
because combustion temperatures got too hot. Rings are annealed (lose their
hardness) by prolonged and elevated temperatures.
As temperatures in an iron alloy (used in piston rings) increase, the time to
anneal the alloy decreases. Therefore, the less time spent at elevated
temperatures, the better. In practical engine operating terms, keep CHT's below
400oF and TIT's below 1425oF for this phase.
EGT temps will vary according to probe placement, but a good rule of thumb in
climb settings is to set the mixture 200oF rich of the peak mixture temperature
you would get at the 70 percent power setting. This will give good power but
adequate cooling for climb.
Those of you running intercooler systems on your turbocharged engine take note:
If your fuel system does not fully compensate for changes in air density, the
fuel system must be set up again after installation of the intercooler.
Fuel systems that do not sense air density from the intercooler will run the
mixture too lean in takeoff end climb (in the neighborhood of 1500oF or higher)
and will anneal the rings in 50 to 100 hours (oil consumption starts to go up
and compressions start to drop).
These systems must be set to give a full fuel flow at an equivalent full power
MAP (generally 3-4 in. Hg below redline). This compensates for the higher air
density brought by the intercooler. I have brought many a plane back to the shop
to pull all six cylinders for this very reason.
Cruise
Best Power is used mainly in cruise when you want speed and is shown in power
charts under the "Best Power" curve. There is also a "Best Economy" curve that
is a leaner mixture used with the same power setting and gives slightly less
power than the "Best Power" setting (by experience, somewhere around 2-3 percent
lower fuel flow or 3 to 5 knot airspeed loss).
The name is as implied. It gives the best economy for the chosen power setting
but also gives higher EGTs. "Best Economy" mixture settings generally are not
given for power settings above 65 percent because of the potential for
preignition and detonation.
Safe EGT levels vary directly with the engine power setting. At low power
settings (65 percent and less) the mixture may be adjusted to give best economy
because of the engine's ability to carry away the heat energy' at these lower
settings.
At higher power settings, the mixture is adjusted to allow for extra fuel to
help cool the engine. This is because of the engine's inability to carry away
the heat energy developed at lean mixtures with high power settings (70 percent
and higher).
This is also the reason most operating handbooks specify seemingly overly rich
mixtures for climb and high cruise power settings, especially on the larger
engines.
Descent and Landing
Descent is similar to climb in that the mixture must be watched closely in
systems which don't compensate well for changes in air density (carburetors and
naturally aspirated Continental Fuel Injection systems). The main problem here
is the reverse of climb: mixture becoming too lean as air density increases with
a decrease in altitude.
In descents to the pattern altitude from 10,000 to 12,000 feet, if the mixture
is not increased, opening of the throttle at level-off can be accompanied by
spits and sputters and possibly an engine that quits from fuel starvation.
Good rule of thumb here: set the mixture to maintain the same EGT/TIT as cruise
minus 50oF to the rich side in high power descents (65 percent or higher) and
smooth engine running in low power descents (50-60 percent). If you don't have
an EGT gauge, enrich the mixture to keep the engine smooth plus a little extra,
as you enter the pattern or level off.
Most normal descents are accomplished at low power (50-60 percent) where running
close to peak EGT (25oF) isn't a problem because of the lower temps. A smooth
engine is a happy engine and temps are kept up to help stave off the "shock"
cooling gremlin.
Density compensating systems will do a much better job of mixture control in
descent but still need monitoring and an occasional adjustment. For landing, the
mixture should be set for a position that will allow for full power operation
for the particular system. This is to provide sufficient fuel for an immediate
response if a go-around or evasive maneuver is needed.
Flight and Mixture Control
In [the next section], we'll go through these four flight phases for each
particular fuel system. Keep in mind the time delay (5-10 seconds) for an EGT or
TIT system reading to stabilize wherever accurate mixture adjustments are
required. Also note that it is important to have your EGT or TIT gauge
calibrated regularly.
Have it checked at each annual if possible, and sooner if you fly more than 150
hours between inspections. This is especially important for turbocharged engines
and naturally aspirated engines that fly regularly at altitudes below 5,000 feet
MSL.
Or those of you who have Lycoming engines, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a
copy of S.I. 1094D, fuel mixture leaning procedure, and look over the procedures
for your particular engine. You'll find that this Instruction will vary
substantially from the POH or Airplane Flight Manual for larger, high-horsepower
engines.
2. Mixture Control by Type
[In Part 1] we gave a general mixture operational overview. In parttwo of this
effort, we will detail the power settings and leaning procedures for each fuel
system type in various flight modes. Note that this was written by a very
experienced test pilot of GA aircraft, but mixture management is still an area
of some debate.
Carburetors
Note: The following advice is for naturally aspirated engines only. All
turbocharged and turbo-normalized, carbureted engines must be at full rich for
takeoff.
Taxi and Runup: Leaning during taxi is sometimes required to prevent plug
fouling and/or to provide smooth operation, especially at highaltitude airports.
At altitude (3000 feet and higher), leaning is definitely required to get an
accurate mag check.
Rich mixtures can give mag drops of 200 RPM and of only 75 to 100 RPM when
leaned. To find the best mixture for mag checks, lean until the engine gets
rough then enrichen back to highest RPM. Readjust the throttle to the mag-check
RPM and do your check.
Some carburetor systems provide some challenges to this simple procedure in cold
weather. The most common example that comes to mind is the 0-470 in the C180 and
C182. This is a great engine/airframe combination but can get cantankerous in
very cold weather.
The carburetor sits down away from the engine where it can't pick up much heat.
Therefore, it will ice up a little easier and in very cold weather (low teens
and subzero) has some problem getting the fuel to atomize once it is distributed
into the induction airflow.
This can cause lean mixtures of sufficient magnitude to give really rotten mag
drops; bad enough to fool some into thinking that the mag has just gone south
with the geese. The best way to compensate for this malady is to pull the carb
heat on, lean the mixture as previously described, adjust throttle to the mag
check RPM and try again, all with carb heat "on."
The mag drop will be a little higher than normal (125-150 instead of 75-100),
but will be smooth if everything with the mags is okay. This is to be expected
because of the hotter induction air (causing lower engine power) with carb heat
in the "on" position. (Carb heat in for TO.)
Takeoff and Climb: Leaning for takeoff (non-turbo) is a very important
pre-takeoff item at high-altitude airports (higher than 3,000 feet).
Unfortunately this is a practice still not exercised by some. Proper leaning at
takeoff will shorten takeoff rolls and increase climb rates.
At the high-altitude airports in the Rockies, for example, proper leaning can
mean the difference between a successful takeoff or ending up in the trees at
the end of the runway. Proper high-altitude leaning can shorten takeoff rolls by
500 feet and increase climb rates by 200-300 feet per minute.
Leaning should be accomplished just before the takeoff roll. At full or near
full throttle, lean to peak RPM then enrichen only slightly (barely enough to
see an RPM drop, no more than 25).
This will be best power for takeoff, plus just a little extra fuel for cooling
(cooling isn't quite as much of a problem because of the lower temperatures
produced at the lower power found at higher altitudes). The same procedure
should be used for fixed-pitch or constant-speed props. If an EGT is used, it
should be set for about 150oF rich of peak. At sea level, of course, go full
rich.
Climb is not much different. The idea here is to keep the mixture at best power
plus about 50oF Mixture adjustment (re-leaning) is required about every 2,000
feet of altitude change for maximum performance and smooth operation above 5,000
feet density altitude.
As altitude increases, and engine power decreases to 65 percent or lower, the
mixture can be leaned much closer to peak EGT (within 50oF). This will help
maintain power at the lower settings where best power mixture gets closer to
peak EGT.
Cruise: This is the easy part. Set cruise power and lean to 50-75oF rich of peak
for settings of 65 percent or greater and 25-50oF rich of peak for settings
below 65 percent. This will give you the best mixture setting for longevity of
your engine and good performance for cruise.
As always, if the engine gets rough before you reach peak EGT, enrichen the
mixture until the engine gets smooth again and then enrichen a little more. This
is also the procedure to follow if you don't have an EGT gauge. This will put
you slightly on the rich side of peak EGT.
If your engine is turbocharged (TR182, for example) run 75oF rich of peak TIT at
65 percent power or greater, and 50oF rich of peak below 65 percent. Anything
above 75 percent power, should be at least 200oF rich of peak or full rich, and
no hotter than 1500 F, whichever comes first.
Running at peak EGT anywhere above 55 percent power is not recommended because
of uneven fuel distribution and this high temperature operating zone has the
smallest margin for mixture errors.
Again, some engines can be very difficult in subzero (Fahrenheit) weather. You
may have to fly your 0-470 with the carb heat on just to get the mixture to
atomize and the engine to run smooth. This is where a Carb Air Temp gauge comes
in real handy.
Descent and Landing: Since the carburetor is rotten at air density sensing, the
mixture will need to be enriched every 2,000 feet or so during the descent. If
you have an EGT gauge, you can enrichen the EGT 50oF lower than cruise and
maintain this EGT all the way to the pattern.
Once you level Off, enrichen the mixture to the approximate position (by your
own experience) that you would need if you were taking off at the same airport.
>From here on out, the mixture can stay where it is until shutdown.
Pressure Carburetors
Taxi and runup isn't much different than normal carbureted engines. Lean for
smooth running to prevent plug fouling and follow the same runup procedures. At
mag-check RPM, lean the mixture until the engine gets rough or loses RPM,
whichever comes first, then enrichen back to highest RPM. Readjust the throttle
to the mag-check RPM and do your check.
Takeoff and Climb: For all high-power operations (75 percent power or greater)
below 5,000 feet density altitude, the mixture control should be full rich. All
takeoffs (except density altitudes of about 8,000 feet or higher) should also be
full rich.
The pressure carb is pretty good at sensing actual air density and adjusting
mixture accordingly for fulland high-power. For climbing at higher density
altitudes where power is limited to below 75 percent, the mixture can be leaned.
For long cylinder/piston/ring life, keep EGTs at 1425oF or lower, preferably
around 1350oF and do not exceed 400oF cylinder head temp.
Cruise: Setup cruise mixture to no less than 50oF rich of peak at power settings
of 65-70 percent and 75 to 100oF rich at 70-75 percent power. If you don't have
an EGT, run book settings plus one-half to one gallon per hour more to extend
cylinder life. In all cases hold CHTs no more than 400oF.
At power settings of 50-65 percent some manufacturers will allow you to run at
peak EGT. This may be okay for 50-55 percent, but it will prove easier on your
engine (and pocket book) to run, at minimum, 50oF rich of peak at 60-65 percent.
For supercharged or turbocharged engines add 25oF to the above EGT/TIT figures
at minimum.
Descent: For descent, subtract 50oF from the cruise EGT-TIT by enriching the
mixture. The AMC bellows should keep the air-fuel ratio pretty stable throughout
the entire descent.
Some slight adjustment may be required occasionally, but a healthy pressure carb
will compensate for air density changes, hence altitude, marvelously. Before
applying power at level off, or once in the pattern, enrich the mixture to the
setting needed for full power at that density altitude.
Some leaning may be required for taxi at high density altitude airports. Lean as
you would for taxi before takeoff unless extra cooling before shutdown is
required.
Continental Fuel Injection
Taxi and runup will be almost exactly the same as carbureted engines due to this
system's lack of air density sensing capability. Lean for smooth running during
taxi and lean the same as the carburetors for runupset mag-check RPM, lean until
the engine looses RPM, then enrichen back to highest RPM. Readjust the throttle
to the mag check RPM and do your check.
During this procedure the engine should lose RPM before it gets rough. If it
doesn't this is usually an indication that the system needs a little attention
(dirty nozzles or injector line obstructions). This is true of injected engines
in any flight phase.
If it's really noticeable (like a low frequency rumble or panel vibration that
comes and goes), it would be a good idea to get it checked out before you go any
further. Obstructions in a line or nozzle can destroy a cylinder in less than an
hour and may even cause complete piston failure in the takeoff or climb phase.
Takeoff and Climb: Naturally aspirated engines, as stated in the description,
have no air density sensing mechanism (exceptions are the 10 and GIO-550,
addressed later). For takeoffs from sea level to 3,000 feet density altitude,
use full rich mixture. For takeoff at density altitudes of 4,000 feet or higher,
adhere to the altitude fuel flow settings on the face of the fuel flow gauge. If
its not marked, consult the POH.
Be sure to use density altitude. Using only pressure altitude will give
inaccurate air-fuel ratios on all but standard temperature days. If for some
reason your flow gauge or POH doesn't give these figures (some old installations
don't) lean as follows: Just before takeoff, at full or near full throttle, lean
to peak RPM then enrichen 2-1/2 to 3 gallons per hour (if your gauge is
calibrated only in psi, enrichen two psi).
If you have an EGT, enrich 150oF rich of peak. If your en- gine reaches red-line
(constant-speed prop) before you get to full throttle, pull the throttle back to
100 RPM below red-line and follow the above procedure. This will give you best
power for takeoff and climb for the first one or two thousand feet.
For best climb performance, the mixture will need to be monitored and adjusted
every 1,000 feet. If you have an EGT gauge, keep the EGT at the same temperature
it was on take-off. This will give you good perfor- mance and an economical
climb up to about 10,000 feet. At this point re- check peak and adjust for about
50oF rich of peak for 10,000 feet and higher.
The I0- and GIO-550 series engines have a bellows similar to the aneroid bellows
on the turbocharged fuel pumps that compensate for changes in air pressure. If
set up properly, these 550 systems do a pretty good job of mixture control and
August 18, 2007 - September 29, 2007
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-cn