Commander-Archive.digest.vol-cy

April 06, 2008 - April 17, 2008



      Brookeridge Air Park LL22
      
      
      In a message dated 4/6/2008 7:41:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
      nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes:
      
      thought  a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a
      good move or  not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and
      the expense  of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out
      whether the  prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than
      directional control,  with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill
      and the rough on  the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either
      side. It turned  out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike
      would have been  the least of my troubles, I  guess.
      N.
      
      
        (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stan" <swperk(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 06, 2008
As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way, although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane stays upright without tilting to either side. Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2008
From: "JTAddington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
I might as well put my two cents in. I had a friend, which is the best electronics man I have ever seen, put a switch in the aux pump system with a blue light that would come on any time the pump is running. He also put in a red light to tell me the pump switch was off. This was a long time ago and we got it by the FAA with a field approval. My first Hydraulic failure the blue light was what told me I had a problem. It took four failures before we finally found it was the accumulator. I had a mechanic tell me that I should check the pressure every so often to see if it was bumping the limit. If it is I should pump the brakes to bring it back down to the 1000 PSI or the hydraulic fluid will over heat which is what happened to me. We thought it was pump seals and hoses. I had one more failure when one of the new hoses failed. I had brakes and steering on all of them. Jim A N444BD 500A -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > --> > > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the > remaining > > fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real > > hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another > thing > > to remember before landing. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>, Maps, > Traffic, Directions & More! > * > > > * > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 06, 2008
Commanders- I hope I never regret saying this, but: If I am making an emergency landing with the possibility of gear collapse- I'm willing to accept the probability of consequential damage that results from making the safest approach and landing possible with the remaining parts of the airplane. After all- this is what I pay the insurer for... Robert S. Randazzo -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:56 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way, although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane stays upright without tilting to either side. Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. __________ NOD32 3005 (20080406) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Stan, I can't speak about the turbine airplanes, especially the 690 series and everything that came after, but I'm sure that all the piston airplanes will have prop clearance if they land on the belly. There are plenty of piston models out there with damage history that mentions "gear-up landing" in the logbooks without mentioning "prop strike". I'm aware of one airplane that has more than one gear-up landing in the books with no mention of a teardown or even IRAN. /John Stan wrote: > > As a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious > exception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit > with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way, > although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd > get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the plane > stays upright without tilting to either side. > > Stan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a > good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and > the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out > whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than > directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill > and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either > side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike > would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. > N. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 06, 2008
I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Evening Gentlemen, Just a comment from a non current Commander type. It is pretty basic, but do you teach the use of adverse aileron drag to aid in directional control on the ground? If you are getting down to low speed and the nose starts to swing to the left, full left aileron will help it come back toward the center. Those ailerons are pretty effective even with the nose on the ground. The drag of a down aileron will help even at very low speeds. It is certainly not intuitive to use left aileron when the nose is swinging to the left, but it will help bring it back to the right! And, of course, the same principle works if the nose is heading to the right when you do not want it to. Right aileron will bring the nose to the left. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/6/2008 7:41:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to find out whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) than directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred feet either side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike would have been the least of my troubles, I guess. N. _____ <http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016> . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Good Morning Nico, Next time you find yourself at a nice long, wide, runway that is dead into a very light wind and you have a bit of time to spare, give it a try! Set the power so that the airplane is stable at about twenty to thirty knots and you will have time to see the various effects. I generally evaluate any new airplane that I fly in just that manner. If you try it in a machine that uses spoiler in lieu of aileron, it works just the opposite. Steers like a car! For those aircraft that use a combination of spoiler and aileron, it can get squirrely. The Boeing 720 was very interesting. Lay in a little bit of aileron and it would steer the same as an aileron only airplane. Lay in a bit more, the spoilers came into play and it swung the other way. Put in the rest of the aileron and back it went! The Boeing 727 has minimal aileron, but heavy spoiler effectiveness in the ground configuration and it steers more like an automobile. That beautiful Aero Commander wing is more like a DC-3. Very effective aileron. Even more effective when the nose is still in the air, but still usable with the nose wheel on the ground. For the Twin Beech and the Curtiss Commando (C-46) such aileron use is the only safe way to control the airplane on the ground. The rudder is almost useless. The DC-3 is more gentle, but aileron is very effective in ground handling. The Cessna 180 and 185 respond to the technique better than does the 182 but it is still effective in both. Old trick, but it still works! Obviously, one of my favorite subjects. Any comments are most welcome! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 12:44:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nick Martin" <nick(at)container.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Bob I have been following this and am unclear as to what to do in the commander =85=85..is this procedure used when you have lost the nose wheel steering ? and do you steer the opposite direction ? e.g. : turn the control wheel right to go left From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nico, Next time you find yourself at a nice long, wide, runway that is dead into a very light wind and you have a bit of time to spare, give it a try! Set the power so that the airplane is stable at about twenty to thirty knots and you will have time to see the various effects. I generally evaluate any new airplane that I fly in just that manner. If you try it in a machine that uses spoiler in lieu of aileron, it works just the opposite. Steers like a car! For those aircraft that use a combination of spoiler and aileron, it can get squirrely. The Boeing 720 was very interesting. Lay in a little bit of aileron and it would steer the same as an aileron only airplane. Lay in a bit more, the spoilers came into play and it swung the other way. Put in the rest of the aileron and back it went! The Boeing 727 has minimal aileron, but heavy spoiler effectiveness in the ground configuration and it steers more like an automobile. That beautiful Aero Commander wing is more like a DC-3. Very effective aileron. Even more effective when the nose is still in the air, but still usable with the nose wheel on the ground. For the Twin Beech and the Curtiss Commando (C-46) such aileron use is the only safe way to control the airplane on the ground. The rudder is almost useless. The DC-3 is more gentle, but aileron is very effective in ground handling. The Cessna 180 and 185 respond to the technique better than does the 182 but it is still effective in both. Old trick, but it still works! Obviously, one of my favorite subjects. Any comments are most welcome! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 12:44:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. _____ Planning your summer road trip? Check out HYPERLINK "http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv0003000000 0016" \nAOL Travel Guides. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Commander-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion Checked by AVG. 4/6/2008 11:12 AM Checked by AVG. 4/6/2008 11:12 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 07, 2008
the non turbine bodies will incur a prop strike if only one gear colapses. gmc > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 21:00:54 -0700> From: john(at)vormbaum.com> To: comman der-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pum um.com>> > Stan,> > I can't speak about the turbine airplanes, especially t he 690 series and > everything that came after, but I'm sure that all the p iston airplanes > will have prop clearance if they land on the belly. There are plenty of > piston models out there with damage history that mentions "gear-up > landing" in the logbooks without mentioning "prop strike". I'm a ware of > one airplane that has more than one gear-up landing in the books with no > mention of a teardown or even IRAN.> > /John> > > Stan wrote:> > s a not-so-trivial question, do all Twin Commanders (with the obvious> > ex ception of the 700) have enough prop clearance so that the props won't hit> > with the gear retracted? All the ones I've seen *seem* to be that way,> > although the 690 series with their larger diameter props look like they'd > > get pretty close! Of course, I'm asking about the situation where the p lane> > stays upright without tilting to either side.> >> > Stan> >> > ---- -Original Message-----> > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com> > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css> > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 5:36 PM> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas> >> > --> Co mmander-List message posted by: "nico css" > >> > I thought a lot after the incident whether feathering both engines was a> > good move or not. At the time I was more concerned about collapsing gear and> > the expense of a prop strike (I didn't think it was a good time to f ind out> > whether the prop would hit the ground after a gear-collapse) tha n> > directional control, with the runway being more than a mile, slightly uphill> > and the rough on the side smooth enough for a couple of hundred f eet either> > side. It turned out OK. If there had been drainage ditches, a prop strike> > would have been the least of my troubles, I guess.> > N.> > ===========> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Good Morning Nick, Actually, I recommend that the procedure be used every time you fly the airplane! It is so counter intuitive that it needs to be ingrained so that you will use it correctly when the chips are down. I would imagine your were taught to do it that way from your first hour of training, but the reason it works was not explained. Didn't your instructor tell you to use aileron into the wind in a crosswind? They will usually tell you that action is to hold the wing down, but the more important reason for using the aileron into the wind is generally to ai d in directional control. Once again, there are many variables and it is just one of many possible techniques, but it does work. If you have any seaplane experience, you were probably taught how to "Sail" the machine when on the water. Same deal! The idea is to use everything that is available at all times, but be carefu l that you do not apply one correction that is fighting another. As an example. The Fairchild Model Twenty Four is one of the most delightfu l and gentle airplanes to fly that I have ever seen. However, the aileron adverse yaw is so great that if full right aileron is used for a slight rig ht crosswind, the left turning effect is so powerful that you will run out of right rudder when trying to hold it straight. That same effect can be seen, though not as powerfully, when flying a Twin Beech or a C-46. The idea is to know how powerful the turning force is for your individual airplane and then use it according to circumstances that exist. I try to teach that it be worked with constantly so that the control is available when needed. Used correctly, the nose wheel steering will only be required for taxiing and, even then, the advantageous use of aileron "adverse" yaw can be helpfu l. Any help? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 8:11:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nick(at)container.com writes: Bob I have been following this and am unclear as to what to do in the commander ..is this procedure used when you have lost the nose wheel steering ? and do you steer the opposite direction ? e.g. : turn the control wheel right t o go left (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000 016) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Ok.... So you're essentially using adverse yaw...... on the ground to steer in a jam....... As long as the ship you're flying develops adverse yaw with aileron.... Yes? ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nico, Next time you find yourself at a nice long, wide, runway that is dead into a very light wind and you have a bit of time to spare, give it a try! Set the power so that the airplane is stable at about twenty to thirty knots and you will have time to see the various effects. I generally evaluate any new airplane that I fly in just that manner. If you try it in a machine that uses spoiler in lieu of aileron, it works just the opposite. Steers like a car! For those aircraft that use a combination of spoiler and aileron, it can get squirrely. The Boeing 720 was very interesting. Lay in a little bit of aileron and it would steer the same as an aileron only airplane. Lay in a bit more, the spoilers came into play and it swung the other way. Put in the rest of the aileron and back it went! The Boeing 727 has minimal aileron, but heavy spoiler effectiveness in the ground configuration and it steers more like an automobile. That beautiful Aero Commander wing is more like a DC-3. Very effective aileron. Even more effective when the nose is still in the air, but still usable with the nose wheel on the ground. For the Twin Beech and the Curtiss Commando (C-46) such aileron use is the only safe way to control the airplane on the ground. The rudder is almost useless. The DC-3 is more gentle, but aileron is very effective in ground handling. The Cessna 180 and 185 respond to the technique better than does the 182 but it is still effective in both. Old trick, but it still works! Obviously, one of my favorite subjects. Any comments are most welcome! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 12:44:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Question answered.... I had not received the last post when I wrote mine...... ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve at Col-East To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Ok.... So you're essentially using adverse yaw...... on the ground to steer in a jam....... As long as the ship you're flying develops adverse yaw with aileron.... Yes? ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nico, Next time you find yourself at a nice long, wide, runway that is dead into a very light wind and you have a bit of time to spare, give it a try! Set the power so that the airplane is stable at about twenty to thirty knots and you will have time to see the various effects. I generally evaluate any new airplane that I fly in just that manner. If you try it in a machine that uses spoiler in lieu of aileron, it works just the opposite. Steers like a car! For those aircraft that use a combination of spoiler and aileron, it can get squirrely. The Boeing 720 was very interesting. Lay in a little bit of aileron and it would steer the same as an aileron only airplane. Lay in a bit more, the spoilers came into play and it swung the other way. Put in the rest of the aileron and back it went! The Boeing 727 has minimal aileron, but heavy spoiler effectiveness in the ground configuration and it steers more like an automobile. That beautiful Aero Commander wing is more like a DC-3. Very effective aileron. Even more effective when the nose is still in the air, but still usable with the nose wheel on the ground. For the Twin Beech and the Curtiss Commando (C-46) such aileron use is the only safe way to control the airplane on the ground. The rudder is almost useless. The DC-3 is more gentle, but aileron is very effective in ground handling. The Cessna 180 and 185 respond to the technique better than does the 182 but it is still effective in both. Old trick, but it still works! Obviously, one of my favorite subjects. Any comments are most welcome! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 12:44:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: I didn't know that, Bob. Thinking about it, it makes sense, although at about 30 mph, which was when it veered off the runway, I wonder if it would have changed the outcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Hi Steve, Yep! Except I recommend that it be used not just in a jam, but all of the time! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 9:21:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, steve2(at)sover.net writes: Ok.... So you're essentially using adverse yaw...... on the ground to steer in a jam....... As long as the ship you're flying develops adverse yaw with aileron.... Yes? (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nick Martin" <nick(at)container.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Bob ,thank you ,I=92ll give it a try=85. Nicolas E. Martin Martin Container, Inc. 1402 E. Lomita Blvd. Wilmington, Ca 90748 Tel: 310-830-5000, Fax : 310-830-2562 _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nick, Actually, I recommend that the procedure be used every time you fly the airplane! It is so counter intuitive that it needs to be ingrained so that you will use it correctly when the chips are down. I would imagine your were taught to do it that way from your first hour of training, but the reason it works was not explained. Didn't your instructor tell you to use aileron into the wind in a crosswind? They will usually tell you that action is to hold the wing down, but the more important reason for using the aileron into the wind is generally to aid in directional control. Once again, there are many variables and it is just one of many possible techniques, but it does work. If you have any seaplane experience, you were probably taught how to "Sail" the machine when on the water. Same deal! The idea is to use everything that is available at all times, but be careful that you do not apply one correction that is fighting another. As an example. The Fairchild Model Twenty Four is one of the most delightful and gentle airplanes to fly that I have ever seen. However, the aileron adverse yaw is so great that if full right aileron is used for a slight right crosswind, the left turning effect is so powerful that you will run out of right rudder when trying to hold it straight. That same effect can be seen, though not as powerfully, when flying a Twin Beech or a C-46. The idea is to know how powerful the turning force is for your individual airplane and then use it according to circumstances that exist. I try to teach that it be worked with constantly so that the control is available when needed. Used correctly, the nose wheel steering will only be required for taxiing and, even then, the advantageous use of aileron "adverse" yaw can be helpful. Any help? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 8:11:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nick(at)container.com writes: Bob I have been following this and am unclear as to what to do in the commander =85=85..is this procedure used when you have lost the nose wheel steering ? and do you steer the opposite direction ? e.g. : turn the control wheel right to go left _____ Planning your summer road trip? Check out HYPERLINK "http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv0003000000 0016" \nAOL Travel Guides. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Commander-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion / Checked by AVG. 3/27/2008 10:03 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 07, 2008
If there's a sudden worldwide rash of off-runway excursions for Commanders for the month of April 2008, we'll know what happened! ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Martin To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Bob ,thank you ,I=92ll give it a try=85. Nicolas E. Martin Martin Container, Inc. 1402 E. Lomita Blvd. Wilmington, Ca 90748 Tel: 310-830-5000, Fax : 310-830-2562 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:02 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Morning Nick, Actually, I recommend that the procedure be used every time you fly the airplane! It is so counter intuitive that it needs to be ingrained so that you will use it correctly when the chips are down. I would imagine your were taught to do it that way from your first hour of training, but the reason it works was not explained. Didn't your instructor tell you to use aileron into the wind in a crosswind? They will usually tell you that action is to hold the wing down, but the more important reason for using the aileron into the wind is generally to aid in directional control. Once again, there are many variables and it is just one of many possible techniques, but it does work. If you have any seaplane experience, you were probably taught how to "Sail" the machine when on the water. Same deal! The idea is to use everything that is available at all times, but be careful that you do not apply one correction that is fighting another. As an example. The Fairchild Model Twenty Four is one of the most delightful and gentle airplanes to fly that I have ever seen. However, the aileron adverse yaw is so great that if full right aileron is used for a slight right crosswind, the left turning effect is so powerful that you will run out of right rudder when trying to hold it straight. That same effect can be seen, though not as powerfully, when flying a Twin Beech or a C-46. The idea is to know how powerful the turning force is for your individual airplane and then use it according to circumstances that exist. I try to teach that it be worked with constantly so that the control is available when needed. Used correctly, the nose wheel steering will only be required for taxiing and, even then, the advantageous use of aileron "adverse" yaw can be helpful. Any help? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/7/2008 8:11:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nick(at)container.com writes: Bob I have been following this and am unclear as to what to do in the commander =85=85..is this procedure used when you have lost the nose wheel steering ? and do you steer the opposite direction ? e.g. : turn the control wheel right to go left ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. Release Date: 3/27/2008 10:03 AM Checked by AVG. 3/27/2008 10:03 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2008
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real > > hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing > > to remember before landing. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>, Maps, > Traffic, Directions & More! > * > > > * > > > * > > > * You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2008
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
The key is it would pump down to that Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real > > hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing > > to remember before landing. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > <http://www.mapquest.com/toolbar?NCID=mpqmap00030000000003>, Maps, > Traffic, Directions & More! > * > > > * > > > * > > > * You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Electric fuel pump cycling
Date: Apr 07, 2008
-----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 4:24 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling Thanks for the excellent discussion regarding hydraulic systems. That's what makes this forum so valuable and helpful to Commander owners. I am getting all new hydraulic hoses with the new engines in my 680F. I have added the "pull the hydraulic pump switch" to my climb-out check list, and of course try to remember to push it back in prior to landing. Thanks again for the great comments. Randy Dettmer, AIA 680F/N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling All, Just to share: In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining fluid in the reservoir and the electric hyd. Pump. I would be real hesitant to pull the breaker after take off and then have another thing to remember before landing. With the catastrophic loss of fluid the landings again were a non issue. The first time the line was in the baggage area with the unpleasant result obvious. The second time it was fitting between two sections of line but this time it was in a wing root with the fluid running down the side of the fuselage. Recently, within the last 3 months, I had another issue where after start up the hydraulic pressure didn't register above 600 and I assumed it was failure of the engine driven pumps (again). It turned out to be the accumulator/regulator. Apparently something in the regulator wears and needs to be overhauled. There is only one place in the country that does it and the overhauled part is sold through commander service centers. It is a $4900.00 item with a $4000.00 core charge to assure them that your part is able to be overhauled. Replacing the part solved the problem and luckily my core charge was returned to me a month or so later. Again, this is just to share experiences and I am always open to other more knowledgeable comments. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling Don. When the engines are driving their pumps the psi is around 1000. And the needle is not twitching , I cant tell if the clicking relay sound is there or not because of the noise. I will experiment with finding the flap " OFF" detent......didn't know there was one. Thanks Gary 500RX ________________________________ > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 16:51:19 -0400 > > > Gary, > > > > I am certainly no expert, but I have owned a 500S for 3 years. It is the electric hydraulic pump that you hear as it try sot maintain the 600 lbs. in the system prior to the start of an engine. At that time, the engine driven pump produces around 1000 lbs. If the engine is running and the gauge only shows 600 then it indicates a major loss of hydraulic fluid or both pumps are not working. > > > > It the flap lever is not in the totally off position then I have had the same symptoms that you are having. Sometimes it is difficult to feel the total off position of the flap handle as the detent is not that noticeable. > > > > I am sure others with many more years of experience will chime in an we will all learn from it. > > > > Don > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Giesler > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:13 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > Question > > Before starting the engines i am hearing a pulsing relay clicking that continues even after the flaps are retracted.The hydraulic pressure needle is twitching around 600psi as it makes this noise. If I step on the brakes the pump will work continuous untill just short of redline. After the brakes are released the pressure drops back to six hundred and the clicking relay sound comes back. Have I just never noticed this untill now, I have owned 500RX for a year, or is this a problem ? > > Gary > 500RX--1974 500S > > ________________________________ > > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN51 N1653A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 07, 2008
All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donnie Rose Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Robert, The hydraulic system as it is set up is a solid design, but it DOES depend on the pilot diagnosing a leak condition before things become critical. At 1,000 psi, you can pump the contents of your hydraulic fluid reservoir overboard in seconds, down to the standpipe limit. After which, the aux pump will happily take a few more seconds to finish the job of pumping the remaining fluid out. I agree with your assessment of "in-cockpit solutions" generally. However, in this case (and there has been a LOT of thought put into this by people who know these airplanes VERY well), there aren't any adverse consequences of landing with the breaker pulled. If the system is sound, you have 1,000 redundant psi (on the newer airframes that have a hyd. pump on each engine) available for brakes & steering. If the system is unsound (leak & subsequent pressure loss), you'll know because the gear will hang on the locks, down a couple of inches from the stowed position. It makes noise. You can see it. I'm assuming this happens in all the Commanders after a complete loss of pressure, since it did in my 500B and also in a 500S I was ferrying. That should be the wakeup call to get ready to push the breaker in on final. If you forget, you're in the same boat you would have been in if you had never pulled the breaker. In my case it was too late. I hadn't pulled the breaker in either circumstance (I wasn't trained to) and ended up with about a thimbleful of fluid left after the flight. I've added the breaker pull to my checklist. You're right that these airplanes are exceptionally well designed.....so I am a bit surprised that the aux pump system is set up this way. /John PS: Interestingly, although I didn't try them until after the airplane came to a complete stop, in both failures I still had brakes...at least enough to get one good tromp on the pedals, anyway. Robert S. Randazzo wrote: > > Donnie, et al- > > Im not so sure I agree with the wise ones who are pulling the breaker. > > Back in my chief piloting days we used to see in cockpit solutions > to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This > has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the > per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering > adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic > failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a > greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which > it wasnt designed. > > Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the > system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes > EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- > Im betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably > very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the > ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. > > Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a > central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump But again- Im > sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus > alternative design theories > > Im leaving the breaker in. > > Robert S. Randazzo > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Donnie Rose > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM > *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you > down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise > ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). > > > *Donnie Rose ** > *205/492-8444** > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the > hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven > pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the > reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the > aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so > in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux > pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. > Again....ask me how I know :-). > > With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot > runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the > nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost > elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and > the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear > door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I > didn't block the runway! > > After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and > towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. > > I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or > after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some > directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I > would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally > ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are > quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick > with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick > the airframe is with two feathered! > > /J > > Donnie Rose wrote: > > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > > > > *Donnie Rose > > 205/492-8444* > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft(at)aol.com>> > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > > they say that. > > > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > > c/b set. > > > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of > resets. > > > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > > that moment. > > > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > > out of the 3 times. > > > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > * > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > >> > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > > Just to share: > > > > > > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > > > fluid in > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > ** > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > ** > * * > > > __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: > > All, > > As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to > the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting > along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient > pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to > the bungies and springs for the nose gear. > > I dont know where the information came from that relates to ALL the > hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line > breaking. It didnt happen on my 500S. > > Im not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. > > Don > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Robert S. Randazzo > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM > *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > Donnie, et al- > > Im not so sure I agree with the wise ones who are pulling the breaker. > > Back in my chief piloting days we used to see in cockpit solutions > to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This > has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the > per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering > adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic > failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a > greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which > it wasnt designed. > > Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the > system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes > EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- > Im betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably > very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the > ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. > > Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a > central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump But again- Im > sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus > alternative design theories > > Im leaving the breaker in. > > Robert S. Randazzo > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Donnie Rose > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM > *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you > down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise > ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). > > > **Donnie Rose *** > **205/492-8444*** > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the > hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven > pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the > reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the > aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so > in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux > pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. > Again....ask me how I know :-). > > With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot > runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the > nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost > elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and > the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear > door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I > didn't block the runway! > > After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and > towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. > > I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or > after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some > directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I > would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally > ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are > quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick > with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick > the airframe is with two feathered! > > /J > > Donnie Rose wrote: > > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > > > > *Donnie Rose > > 205/492-8444* > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft(at)aol.com>> > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > > they say that. > > > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > > c/b set. > > > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of > resets. > > > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > > that moment. > > > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > > out of the 3 times. > > > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > * > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > >> > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > > Just to share: > > > > > > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > > > fluid in > > * * > * * > * * > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > * * > *http://forums.matronics.com* > * * > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > * * > > > __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ > > * * > * * > ** > * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* > ** > ** > ** > ** > * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > ** > * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* > ** > * --> http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > * - List Contribution Web Site -* > * Thank you for your generous support!* > * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* > * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > ** > * * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I "think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flap s and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are working. I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag - of course nothing was "on" That should stimulate some discussion. bobf 500B On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum wrote: > > > Don, > > After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if > this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've h ad > 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, > essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem t o > be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come > down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a b ig > deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. > > So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue > that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be > cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. > failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just > pointing out what I'm seeing. > > /John > > dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: > > > > > All, > > > > As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to > > the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting a long > > a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure fo r the > > brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and spri ngs > > for the nose gear. > > > > I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the > > hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It > > didn't happen on my 500S. > > > > I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing . > > > > Don > > > > -----Original Message----- > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > > owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S. > > Randazzo > > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM > > *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > Donnie, et al- > > > > I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the > > breaker. > > > > Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to > > these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led > > me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flig ht > > chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse > > consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure > > mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk > > exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. > > > > Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system > > was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak > > condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the > > engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with > > the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handl e it > > effectively. > > > > Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a centra l > > tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump=85 But again- I'm sure t he > > designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative > > design theories=85 > > > > I'm leaving the breaker in. > > > > Robert S. Randazzo > > > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > > owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie Rose > > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM > > *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com > > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you > > down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones > > are pulling the breaker (everyone included). > > > > > > **Donnie Rose *** > > **205/492-8444*** > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > mailto: > > john(at)vormbaum.com>> > > > > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the > > hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven > > pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the > > reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the > > aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....s o > > in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux > > pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. > > Again....ask me how I know :-). > > > > With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foo t > > runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the > > nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost > > elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and > > the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear > > door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I > > didn't block the runway! > > > > After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and > > towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of > > difficulty. > > > > I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or > > after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some > > directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I > > would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally > > ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are > > quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick > > with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick > > the airframe is with two feathered! > > > > /J > > > > Donnie Rose wrote: > > > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > > > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > > > > > > > *Donnie Rose > > > 205/492-8444* > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft(at)aol.com> > > > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > > > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > > > > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > > > they say that. > > > > > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > > > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > > > > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > > > > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > > > c/b set. > > > > > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > > > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of > > resets. > > > > > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > > > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > > > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > > > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > > > > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > > > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > > > > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > > > > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior t o > > > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > > > that moment. > > > > > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > > > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > > > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > > > > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > > > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > > > out of the 3 times. > > > > > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > > > > > Wing Commander Gordon > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > > > > > dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > > > > > > Just to share: > > > > > > > > > > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > > > > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > > > > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the > > remaining > > > > > > fluid in > > > > * * > > * * > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > > * * > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * * > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ > > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > > ** > > * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* > > ** > > * --> http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > * - List Contribution Web Site -* > > * Thank you for your generous support!* > > * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* > > * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > > > > > * > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 08, 2008
OOOPS. Very different from you Piper ( not knocking Pipers, I have 5 of them) The braking system and steering system work off the same brake valves. Hence the first bit does the steering and then the brakes. Both systems therefore rely on the hydraulic pressure from the pumps. The parking brake valve shuts the system off between the calipers and the brake/steering valves thus locking the pressure on the brakes. The accumulator has nothing to do with it. Its only function really is to stop the pressure relief valve from chattering by essentially adding a little 'give' in the system. Not trusting the good old park brake is the reason we pressurize the system either by hand pump or electric before we start the engines. Nothing is more entertaining than a commander starting to move before the hydraulics pressurize. Particularly good in those older models that only have one pump and its not on the engine you decided to start. Just a thought from Down Under.( where everything works backwards etc) Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I "think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are working. I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag - of course nothing was "on" That should stimulate some discussion. bobf 500B On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum wrote: Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S. Randazzo *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie Rose *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). **Donnie Rose *** **205/492-8444*** ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft(at)aol.com>> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > >> > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* * * *http://forums.matronics.com* * * *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ * * * * ** * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* ** ** ** ** * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* ** * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* ** * --> http://forums.matronics.com* ** * - List Contribution Web Site -* * Thank you for your generous support!* * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* ** * * * * owse ink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. is)" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:================= ====== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 08, 2008
My Dad relates a very funny story years ago of having the hydraulic pressure gauge fail internally as the pumps on a 680E happily pumped the remainder of the fluid out. I'll check with him to make sure I've got this right...... After losing rudder authority and going very slowly I believe he shut both engines down as he entered a giant snow bank and gently buried the thing up to the wing roots.... I had wondered when you would use the emergency cut-off's in anger in the 500B, and I guess this would have been one of those times....... I too was very, very reluctant to incorporate some "clever idea" in the cockpit. Before the electric pump was added to the airframes, the handpump used the same arrangment of the lower standpipe? I think I've been comfortable with the idea then that the electric pump takes the place of the hand pump, 'when I want it to', rather than it just sitting there and pumping the remaining fluid overboard. As to consequences of accidentally leaving the pump off, the only dire one I can think of is a momentary loss of braking and steering at startup. I've tried this on the ground several times, and haven't been able to make the ship do anything scary. Am I missing anything? An inflight failure without the pump I believe would have been noticed by odd behavior in the gear and flaps........ Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:57 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I "think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are working. I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag - of course nothing was "on" That should stimulate some discussion. bobf 500B On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum wrote: Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S. Randazzo *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump=85 But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories=85 I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie Rose *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). **Donnie Rose *** **205/492-8444*** ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > >> > > > > All, > > > > Just to share: > > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* * * *http://forums.matronics.com* * * *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ * * * * ** * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* ** ** ** ** * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* ** * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* ** * --> http://forums.matronics.com* ** * - List Contribution Web Site -* * Thank you for your generous support!* * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* ** * * * * owse ink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. is)" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:================= ====== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2008
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: "stering"
Old Bob Ancient Aviator, I was wondering because you did not touch on it; did you first discover this with wing warping on the Wright flyer? Actually I am just envious of your experience, dan f --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 08, 2008
"An inflight failure without the pump I believe would have been noticed by odd behavior in the gear and flaps........" Or by looking at the hydraulic pressure gauge. I put a enunciator light on my electric hydraulic pump. Tom... ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve at Col-East To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:51 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas My Dad relates a very funny story years ago of having the hydraulic pressure gauge fail internally as the pumps on a 680E happily pumped the remainder of the fluid out. I'll check with him to make sure I've got this right...... After losing rudder authority and going very slowly I believe he shut both engines down as he entered a giant snow bank and gently buried the thing up to the wing roots.... I had wondered when you would use the emergency cut-off's in anger in the 500B, and I guess this would have been one of those times....... I too was very, very reluctant to incorporate some "clever idea" in the cockpit. Before the electric pump was added to the airframes, the handpump used the same arrangment of the lower standpipe? I think I've been comfortable with the idea then that the electric pump takes the place of the hand pump, 'when I want it to', rather than it just sitting there and pumping the remaining fluid overboard. As to consequences of accidentally leaving the pump off, the only dire one I can think of is a momentary loss of braking and steering at startup. I've tried this on the ground several times, and haven't been able to make the ship do anything scary. Am I missing anything? An inflight failure without the pump I believe would have been noticed by odd behavior in the gear and flaps........ Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:57 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I "think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are working. I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag - of course nothing was "on" That should stimulate some discussion. bobf 500B On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum wrote: Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S. Randazzo *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump=85 But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories=85 I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie Rose *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). **Donnie Rose *** **205/492-8444*** ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > >> > > > > All, > > > > Just to share: > > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* * * *http://forums.matronics.com* * * *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ * * * * ** * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* ** ** ** ** * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* ** * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* ** * --> http://forums.matronics.com* ** * - List Contribution Web Site -* * Thank you for your generous support!* * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* ** * * * * owse ink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. is)" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:================= ====== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 08, 2008
Subject: Re: "stering"
Good Morning Dan, Experience is nice, but it doesn't hold a candle to youth and vigor! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/8/2008 8:36:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com writes: Actually I am just envious of your experience, (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 08, 2008
That jogged my memory, Richard. My straight 500 a strictly left-engine-starter. Once I had a young hot-shot fly a charter in her and I went out to make sure everything was taken care of, when I briefed him on the plane's peculiarities, such as, starting the left engine first at all times. He, of course, fired up the right engine because it was the furthest from the door in case they had to evacuate. Those Lyc's had no need for a second opinion when it came to starting; they fired up right away. So, there I was pushing back on the nose while he tried to get the left engine going. It wasn't hilarious at the time, but we laughed about it afterwards. He had to deal with his pax for the duration of the flight. Served him right. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:04 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas OOOPS. Very different from you Piper ( not knocking Pipers, I have 5 of them) The braking system and steering system work off the same brake valves. Hence the first bit does the steering and then the brakes. Both systems therefore rely on the hydraulic pressure from the pumps. The parking brake valve shuts the system off between the calipers and the brake/steering valves thus locking the pressure on the brakes. The accumulator has nothing to do with it. Its only function really is to stop the pressure relief valve from chattering by essentially adding a little 'give' in the system. Not trusting the good old park brake is the reason we pressurize the system either by hand pump or electric before we start the engines. Nothing is more entertaining than a commander starting to move before the hydraulics pressurize. Particularly good in those older models that only have one pump and its not on the engine you decided to start. Just a thought from Down Under.( where everything works backwards etc) Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I "think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are working. I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag - of course nothing was "on" That should stimulate some discussion. bobf 500B On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum wrote: Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S. Randazzo *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie Rose *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). **Donnie Rose *** **205/492-8444*** ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft(at)aol.com>> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > >> > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* * * *http://forums.matronics.com* * * *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ * * * * ** * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* ** ** ** ** * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* ** * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* ** * --> http://forums.matronics.com* ** * - List Contribution Web Site -* * Thank you for your generous support!* * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* ** * * * * owse ink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. is)" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:======================= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 08, 2008
Since this thread is called "pump ideas", it looks like it would have been a good idea to put the intake for the electric pump at the same place as t he engine pump. Then saved the hand pump for the emergency. I understand my straight 500 is plumbed where the electric pump on the later models are. I n case both pumps ,and the electric pump went out, you could still hand pu mp for brakes and flaps. Correct me if I am wrong. I fly a straight 500, a nd love the simplicity . Question for old Bob ( or anyone) . If my plane has a hose rupture, can I p ump for brakes and flaps without pumping overboard, as long as the problem is n ot in brake or flap plumbing?? Thanks, Roland Gilliam AC 500 N6291b > Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:46:05 -0700> From: john(at)vormbaum.com> To: comman der-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pum um.com>> > Don,> > After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if > this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between yo u & me, we've > had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a > non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would > then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the > gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-fla p > landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a > 900-ft. strip.> > So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I m ight still argue > that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might > be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, mayb e 6 cases of > hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not rever sing myself, > just pointing out what I'm seeing.> > /John> > dfalik@sbcglo bal.net wrote:> >> > All,> >> > As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to > > the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and fa ilure of a flared fitting > > along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each t ime I had sufficient > > pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear ext ension was due to > > the bungies and springs for the nose gear.> >> > I do n=92t know where the information came from that relates to ALL the > > hydr aulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line > > breaking. It didn=92t happen on my 500S.> >> > I=92m not pulling the breaker, I have eno ugh to remember prior to landing.> >> > Don> >> > -----Original Message---- -> > *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-co mmander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > > *Robert S. Randazzo> > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM> > *To:* commander-list@matronics. com> > *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas> >> > D onnie, et al-> >> > I=92m not so sure I agree with =93the wise ones=94 who are pulling the breaker.> >> > Back in my chief piloting days we used to se e =93in cockpit solutions=94 > > to these types of things roll around the p ilot ranks on occasion. This > > has led me to believe that if we do a comp arative risk analysis on the > > per-flight chances of landing with the bre aker pulled and suffering > > adverse consequences- versus the chance of su ffering the hydraulic > > failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a > > greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a man ner for which > > it wasn=92t designed.> >> > Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the > > system was designed to provide posi tive pressure in all failure modes > > EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- > > I=92m betting the engineers who dreame d these airplanes up were probably > > very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the > > ability of the pilot to handle it effective ly.> >> > Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a > > central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump=85 But again- I =92m > > sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versu s > > alternative design theories=85> >> > I=92m leaving the breaker in.> > > > Robert S. Randazzo> >> > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics. com > > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > > *Donnie Rose> > *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM> > *To:* commander -list(at)matronics.com> > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pu mp Ideas> >> > Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you > > down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise > > ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included).> >> >> > **D onnie Rose ***> > **205/492-8444***> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > Fr om: John Vormbaum > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: El n Vormbaum > >> >> > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the> > hydraul ic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven> > pumps IIR C....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the> > reservoir. That 's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the> > aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so> > in a properly f unctioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux> > pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture.> > Again....ask me how I kn ow :-).> >> > With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot> > runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the> > nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I l ost> > elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, an d> > the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear> > door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I> > didn't block the runway!> >> > After that I pulled the tail down, we loc ked the nose gear down, and> > towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty.> >> > I would be very reluctant to feather b oth engines on short final or> > after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some> > directional control. In a truly life-threaten ing situation I think I> > would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally> > ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that w indmilling props are> > quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane fe els much more slick> > with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routin e shows how slick> > the airframe is with two feathered!> >> > /J> >> > Don nie Rose wrote:> > > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture woul d cause the aux> > > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard.> > > > > >> > > *Donnie Rose> > > 205/492-8444*> > >> > >> > >> > > ----- Origin al Message ----> > > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com <mailto:clou dcraft(at)aol.com>>> > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM> > > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas> > >> > > *As the French say , "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told> > > they say that.> > >> > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement> > > with the aux hydraulic c/b.> > >> > > Gear up, pull the c/b.> > >> > > G ear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic> > > c/b set.> > >> > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches.> > > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thous ands of > > resets.> > >> > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a> > > breaker switch. I really like that idea becau se you can install the> > > switch so that up is off. (If this were not suc h a public place, I'd> > > suggest moving this switch next to the gear hand le.)> > >> > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up /> > > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled.> > >> > > Gear h andle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled.> > >> > > With a hydrau lic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to> > > touchdown, p ossibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at> > > that moment. > > >> > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their m inds> > > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow patter n,> > > I'm convinced it's the way to go.> > >> > > I've been through 3 cat astrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact> > > that I disable the aux pum p gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2> > > out of the 3 times.> > >> > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder.> > >> > > Wing Commander Gordon> > > *> > >> > >> > >> > > -----Original Message-----> > > From: dfalik@sbcg lobal.net > > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.c om > > > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 p m> > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling> > >> > > -- k(at)sbcglobal.net> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > All,> > >> > >> > >> > > Just to share:> > >> > >> > >> > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd.> > >> > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I w as> > >> > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining> > >> > > fluid in> >> > * *> > * *> > * *> > *http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List*> > * *> > *http://forums.matronics.com*> > * *> > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*> > * *> > * *> >> >> >> > _ _________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________> >> > * *> > * *> > **> > * - The Commander-List Email Forum -*> > **> > **> > **> > **> > * -- > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List*> > **> > * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -*> > **> > * --> http://forums.matronics.com*> > **> > * - Lis t Contribution Web Site -*> > * Thank you for your generous support!*> > * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.*> > * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution*> =============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM _WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 08, 2008
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Good Evening Roland, Since it has been at least forty years since I flew an Aero Commander, I am not qualified to make a broad and or authoritative statement concerning the hydraulic variations of the aircraft. However, such a lack of knowledge very rarely keeps me quiet! In general, It All Depends! Depends on where the leak is located. If you can isolate the leaking system by setting a valve in neutral, you may be able to retain the standby fluid long enough to operate whatever is the most important at the time. Any time a hydraulic fluid loss becomes apparent, it is good practice to isolate any suspect system and to depressurize the entire system if that is practical. I do have one old Commander war story. I was out one dark and stormy night when I lost the left engine. It was Aero Commander serial number twenty-four and was still equipped with the T-handle one shot feathering device. The one and only engine driven hydraulic pump was on the left engine. Fortunately for me, the landing gear free fell as designed. I did have a copilot available who could wobble the hand pump, but hard as he was pumping, the pressure was very slow to build. I elected to forgo the use of flap and save what pressure was being built up to use for the brakes. We later found out that the hand pump seals were quite badly worn. I should have picked that up when I built up hydraulic pressure before engine start, but that was the first and, at that time, the only Aero Commander I had ever flown. I thought the number of strokes needed to build up adequate prestart pressure was normal. Later Commanders that I flew could get adequate prestart pressure by using only three or four strokes on the hand pump. So I guess the only thing I could add would be that it is important that the hand pump be working well and that the pilot understand how to isolate various systems. My dumb luck held out and I was able to retain braking action by my friend's furious pumping of the handle! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/8/2008 6:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, a mg3636(at)hotmail.com writes: Question for old Bob ( or anyone) . If my plane has a hose rupture, can I pump for brakes and flaps without pumping overboard, as long as the problem is not in brake or flap plumbing?? Thanks, Roland Gilliam AC 500 N6291b (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: "stering"
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2008
As Jim Crunkleton says..."experience is what you get when you are expecting something else". -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175677#175677 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Nico, I don't get it. My Commander will not taxi from a standing start on one engine, although J.B. told me that it could be done by turning the nose wheel as far as it would go away from the running engine, start out in a circle and slowly increase the circle diameter to a straight line? Regards, Moe N680RR 680Fp From: nico css Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:41 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas That jogged my memory, Richard. My straight 500 a strictly left-engine-starter. Once I had a young hot-shot fly a charter in her and I went out to make sure everything was taken care of, when I briefed him on the plane's peculiarities, such as, starting the left engine first at all times. He, of course, fired up the right engine because it was the furthest from the door in case they had to evacuate. Those Lyc's had no need for a second opinion when it came to starting; they fired up right away. So, there I was pushing back on the nose while he tried to get the left engine going. It wasn't hilarious at the time, but we laughed about it afterwards. He had to deal with his pax for the duration of the flight. Served him right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:04 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas OOOPS. Very different from you Piper ( not knocking Pipers, I have 5 of them) The braking system and steering system work off the same brake valves. Hence the first bit does the steering and then the brakes. Both systems therefore rely on the hydraulic pressure from the pumps. The parking brake valve shuts the system off between the calipers and the brake/steering valves thus locking the pressure on the brakes. The accumulator has nothing to do with it. Its only function really is to stop the pressure relief valve from chattering by essentially adding a little 'give' in the system. Not trusting the good old park brake is the reason we pressurize the system either by hand pump or electric before we start the engines. Nothing is more entertaining than a commander starting to move before the hydraulics pressurize. Particularly good in those older models that only have one pump and its not on the engine you decided to start. Just a thought from Down Under.( where everything works backwards etc) Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I "think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are working. I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag - of course nothing was "on" That should stimulate some discussion. bobf 500B On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum wrote: Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S. Randazzo *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie Rose *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). **Donnie Rose *** **205/492-8444*** ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft(at)aol.com>> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > >> > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* * * *http://forums.matronics.com* * * *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ * * * * ** * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* ** ** ** ** * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* ** * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* ** * --> http://forums.matronics.com* ** * - List Contribution Web Site -* * Thank you for your generous support!* * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* ** * * * * owse ink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. is)" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:================= ====== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
-----Original Message----- From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 4:15 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Since this thread is called "pump ideas", it looks like?it ?would have been a good idea to put the intake for the electric pump at the same place as the engine pump. Then saved the hand pump for the emergency. I understand my straight 500 is plumbed where the electric pump on the later models are. In case? both pumps ,and the electric pump went out, you could still hand pump for brakes?and ?flaps. Correct me if I am wrong. I fly a straight 500, and love the simplicity . Question for old Bob ( or anyone) . If my plane has a hose rupture, can I pump for brakes and flaps without pumping overboard, as long as the problem is not in brake or flap plumbing?? ? ? Thanks, Roland Gilliam?? AC 500??? ?N6291b Roland, Thanks for asking the question.?? On your model, the hand pump has a selector valve on the floor that will isolate hand pump pressure from the whole system to brakes and flaps only.? Later models did away with the hand pump and replaced it with the electric aux pump. As for the electric aux pump operation / enabling / disabling discussion ... Last post I quoted the French.? This time I'm going to lean upon H. Ideas Gordoninsky, the 1996 third runner up for the Nobel Prize in Quantum Physics.? His theory is that for every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD. When I advocate disabling the electric aux pump it is a variation from the SOPs in the flight manual.? The flight manual (pre-Rockwell) is also only a couple of pages thick, 40+ years old and never went into depth about what the convenience of an automatic back up system will provide or spoil. Yes, the designer of the Aero Commander knew what he was doing.? Ted Smith also built the Aero Star.? Before I flew my first Commander in 1978 (a 500 and then a 680E), I was an Aero Star demo pilot, so I came to the Commanders "backwards," flying Ted Smith's later idea before his earlier ideas. The Aero Star has the aux pump breaker switch and annunciator light that we have been referring to, so it's an evolution of the system and I think adaptable or retrofitable (is that a word?) to the Commander. View full size Here's a picture of the older style hydraulic reservoir.? The flat nacelle series is really the same without the canted filler spout.? I hope this helps everyone understand how the stand pipe that supplies the engine driven pumps leaves 0.8 quart of fluid for the emergency (aux electric for those so equipped) to draw from. In the event of a hydraulic failure, your first realistic clue will be the nose gear extending.? The nose gear is held up by hydraulic pressure only, constantly fighting a spring that's always trying to push it down. The main landing gear (flat nacelle models) are held up by mechanical uplocks that are hydraulically released.??? Placing the landing gear handle down releases the main landing gear uplocks and the gear gravity falls assisted by pneumatic pressure that's always on the down side of the outboard MLG actuators, the bungees -- and in normal ops, 1000 psi of hydraulic power. When you're surprised by the nose gear extending in flight, you'll eventually look at the hydraulic pressure gage and notice it's on zero.? If you have cat like reflexes and are a brilliant systems man, you'll reach over and disable the aux electric hydraulic pump and save what's still left of your 0.8 quart of fluid to operate the brakes.? (The gear will come down as described and flaps are a luxury you probably can't afford right now.) As for starting engines with the aux pump disabled, in case you forgot to reset it upon the prior landing gear extension, you'll catch that during your "quiet checks" before engine start, right? "Quiet checks?"? Prior to engine start, and before putting on your seat belt, check the rudders.? OK.? Get up, go back out, pull the rudder lock and sit down again. (this is for the non-rubber-chicken-rudder-lock equipped models ... Capt. JimBob will expand on that).? Turn on the Master Switch.? Press the brakes.? Hear / feel the electric aux pump pressurize the brake system.? (Parking brake off!? As pointed out, it isolates the brakes from the rest of the system) Run fuel selectors / shut of valves and listen for operation Do the rest of your start routine There it is, lads.?? Stick to the flight manual and trust in check valves ... or be a reckless aux pump disabling renegade and go to Hell on roller skates like me. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Some of you might get a kick out of this. I know David will. Right off the approach end of 4L and 4R at Logan yesterday. Scot here at work can replay our GPS track. David, I still feel dizzy! Boston controllers are tops...... Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
J.B. is exactly right. The nose wheel was turned to the left and it was a slight decline in that direction, too. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:28 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Nico, I don't get it. My Commander will not taxi from a standing start on one engine, although J.B. told me that it could be done by turning the nose wheel as far as it would go away from the running engine, start out in a circle and slowly increase the circle diameter to a straight line? Regards, Moe N680RR 680Fp From: nico css <mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:41 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas That jogged my memory, Richard. My straight 500 a strictly left-engine-starter. Once I had a young hot-shot fly a charter in her and I went out to make sure everything was taken care of, when I briefed him on the plane's peculiarities, such as, starting the left engine first at all times. He, of course, fired up the right engine because it was the furthest from the door in case they had to evacuate. Those Lyc's had no need for a second opinion when it came to starting; they fired up right away. So, there I was pushing back on the nose while he tried to get the left engine going. It wasn't hilarious at the time, but we laughed about it afterwards. He had to deal with his pax for the duration of the flight. Served him right. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:04 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas OOOPS. Very different from you Piper ( not knocking Pipers, I have 5 of them) The braking system and steering system work off the same brake valves. Hence the first bit does the steering and then the brakes. Both systems therefore rely on the hydraulic pressure from the pumps. The parking brake valve shuts the system off between the calipers and the brake/steering valves thus locking the pressure on the brakes. The accumulator has nothing to do with it. Its only function really is to stop the pressure relief valve from chattering by essentially adding a little 'give' in the system. Not trusting the good old park brake is the reason we pressurize the system either by hand pump or electric before we start the engines. Nothing is more entertaining than a commander starting to move before the hydraulics pressurize. Particularly good in those older models that only have one pump and its not on the engine you decided to start. Just a thought from Down Under.( where everything works backwards etc) Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I "think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are working. I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag - of course nothing was "on" That should stimulate some discussion. bobf 500B On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum wrote: Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S. Randazzo *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie Rose *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). **Donnie Rose *** **205/492-8444*** ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com <mailto:cloudcraft(at)aol.com>> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > >> > > > All, > > > Just to share: > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* * * *http://forums.matronics.com* * * *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ * * * * ** * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* ** ** ** ** * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* ** * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* ** * --> http://forums.matronics.com* ** * - List Contribution Web Site -* * Thank you for your generous support!* * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* ** * * * * owse ink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. is)" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:======================= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Steve... It looks like a pipe project? We have a bunch of those going on since Enron Ending... The controllers love us. We have one very large project going on at IAH ,250 AGL, 15 or so lines extending beyond airport boundaries. They keep asking us if we can complete the project after midnight... hehehe David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Steve, was this a photo mission? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at Col-East Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:55 AM Subject: Commander-List: Commander at work Some of you might get a kick out of this. I know David will. Right off the approach end of 4L and 4R at Logan yesterday. Scot here at work can replay our GPS track. David, I still feel dizzy! Boston controllers are tops...... Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
David, good guess.... It's commuter rail lines. It felt really good to be coming home with that one in the can in one trip. We finally had smooth air. First time this spring season. We've been getting hammered this year. Is 11:30am in the air too early to think about beer? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander at work > > > Steve... > > It looks like a pipe project? We have a bunch of those going on since > Enron > Ending... The controllers love us. We have one very large project going > on > at IAH ,250 AGL, 15 or so lines extending beyond airport boundaries. They > keep asking us if we can complete the project after midnight... hehehe > > > David Owens > Aerial Viewpoint > N14AV > AC-500A-Colemill > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Steve... why hell no... beer that is. Hammered is the word here... Our guys have come up with a "harness" arrangement that hooks up to the PAV view scope. They fasten their heads into the harness, keeping their eye steady on the viewfinder, avoiding the proverbial black eye... hehehe David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Wait a second..... what do you mean 250' agl? You've figured out how to get that thing slower than I can! I've done some 1"=175' stuff from 900' or so and I hate it. We have to get down to about 120 for the camera to keep up with the forward motion compensation.... I'll sometimes put the feet down, or half flaps anyway.... 120 down low is my hard limit, but I'm chicken. (and hopefully I'll live to be an old chicken.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander at work > > > Steve... > > It looks like a pipe project? We have a bunch of those going on since > Enron > Ending... The controllers love us. We have one very large project going > on > at IAH ,250 AGL, 15 or so lines extending beyond airport boundaries. They > keep asking us if we can complete the project after midnight... hehehe > > > David Owens > Aerial Viewpoint > N14AV > AC-500A-Colemill > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Hi Nico, Yes it was. But not just for the photos. The photos get exposed with a large format aerial camera, and those images get used creating maps. Nowadays the images also are used to create terrain models, and orthophotos like what Google uses..... I made a little copy (so I don't fill up people's email) that has little blue boxes that represent the flight lines and 'stereo-models'. The stereo models are the overlap of photos from different perspectives. Remember those old Viewmaster things? Same kinda idea...... David's company does the same kind of photo survey flying...... Commanders are a favorite survey platform, for very obvious reasons! (At least to this gang!) Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander at work > > > Steve, was this a photo mission? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at > Col-East > Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:55 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Commander at work > > Some of you might get a kick out of this. I know David will. Right off the > approach end of 4L and 4R at Logan yesterday. Scot here at work can replay > our GPS track. > > David, I still feel dizzy! > > Boston controllers are tops...... > > Steve > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
You guys are using sights? That's how I grew up with my head stuck to an RC-8. I know two people over the years that have gotten concussions. I always kept my head either firmly on, or way the hell off and was lucky. You wouldn't believe the rig we've got here. There is a video camera in the lens cone that plays on a video screen whatever the camera sees. The camerman is sitting on the couch in the back. Plus we've got heat. It's hard to be sympathetic to cameramen anymore........ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander at work > > > Steve... > > why hell no... beer that is. Hammered is the word here... Our guys have > come up with a "harness" arrangement that hooks up to the PAV view scope. > They fasten their heads into the harness, keeping their eye steady on the > viewfinder, avoiding the proverbial black eye... hehehe > > > David Owens > Aerial Viewpoint > N14AV > AC-500A-Colemill > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Thanks much Keith for taking the time to explain it. It is as I thought, bu t nice to know I understood correctly. Roland AC 500 N6291B ulic Pump IdeasDate: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:57:01 -0400From: cloudcraft(at)aol.com -----Original Message-----From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>To: comm ander-list(at)matronics.comSent: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 4:15 pmSubject: RE: Commander -List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Since this thread is called "pump ideas", it looks like it would have been a good idea to put the intake for the electric pump at the same place as t he engine pump. Then saved the hand pump for the emergency. I understand my straight 500 is plumbed where the electric pump on the later models are. I n case both pumps ,and the electric pump went out, you could still hand pu mp for brakes and flaps. Correct me if I am wrong. I fly a straight 500, a nd love the simplicity .Question for old Bob ( or anyone) . If my plane has a hose rupture, can I pumpfor brakes and flaps without pumping overboard, as long as the problem is not inbrake or flap plumbing?? Thanks,Roland Gil liam AC 500 N6291b Roland,Thanks for asking the question. On your model, the hand pump has a selector valve on the floor that will isolate hand pump pressure from the whole system to brakes and flaps only. Later models did away with the hand pump and replaced it with the electric aux pump.As for the electric aux pu mp operation / enabling / disabling discussion ...Last post I quoted the Fr ench. This time I'm going to lean upon H. Ideas Gordoninsky, the 1996 thir d runner up for the Nobel Prize in Quantum Physics. His theory is that for every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD.When I advocate disabling the electric aux pump it is a variation from the SOPs in the flight manual. T he flight manual (pre-Rockwell) is also only a couple of pages thick, 40+ y ears old and never went into depth about what the convenience of an automat ic back up system will provide or spoil.Yes, the designer of the Aero Comma nder knew what he was doing. Ted Smith also built the Aero Star. Before I flew my first Commander in 1978 (a 500 and then a 680E), I was an Aero Sta r demo pilot, so I came to the Commanders "backwards," flying Ted Smith's l ater idea before his earlier ideas.The Aero Star has the aux pump breaker s witch and annunciator light that we have been referring to, so it's an evol ution of the system and I think adaptable or retrofitable (is that a word?) to the Commander. View full size Here's a picture of the older style hydraulic reservoir. The flat nacelle series is really the same without the canted filler spout. I hope this hel ps everyone understand how the stand pipe that supplies the engine driven p umps leaves 0.8 quart of fluid for the emergency (aux electric for those so equipped) to draw from.In the event of a hydraulic failure, your first rea listic clue will be the nose gear extending. The nose gear is held up by h ydraulic pressure only, constantly fighting a spring that's always trying t o push it down.The main landing gear (flat nacelle models) are held up by m echanical uplocks that are hydraulically released. Placing the landing g ear handle down releases the main landing gear uplocks and the gear gravity falls assisted by pneumatic pressure that's always on the down side of the outboard MLG actuators, the bungees -- and in normal ops, 1000 psi of hydr aulic power.When you're surprised by the nose gear extending in flight, you 'll eventually look at the hydraulic pressure gage and notice it's on zero. If you have cat like reflexes and are a brilliant systems man, you'll rea ch over and disable the aux electric hydraulic pump and save what's still l eft of your 0.8 quart of fluid to operate the brakes. (The gear will come down as described and flaps are a luxury you probably can't afford right no w.)As for starting engines with the aux pump disabled, in case you forgot t o reset it upon the prior landing gear extension, you'll catch that during your "quiet checks" before engine start, right?"Quiet checks?" Prior to en gine start, and before putting on your seat belt, check the rudders. OK. Get up, go back out, pull the rudder lock and sit down again. (this is for the non-rubber-chicken-rudder-lock equipped models ... Capt. JimBob will ex pand on that). Turn on the Master Switch. Press the brakes. Hear / feel the electric aux pump pressurize the brake system. (Parking brake off! As pointed out, it isolates the brakes from the rest of the system)Run fuel s electors / shut of valves and listen for operationDo the rest of your start routineThere it is, lads. Stick to the flight manual and trust in check valves ... or be a reckless aux pump disabling renegade and go to Hell on r oller skates like me.Wing Commander Gordon Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up'use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. L earn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Ref resh_skydrive_packup_042008 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine t akes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for a bout 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B From: BobsV35B(at)aol.comDate: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:07:23 -0400Subject: Re: Comm ander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasTo: commander-list(at)matronics.com Good Evening Roland, Since it has been at least forty years since I flew an Aero Commander, I am not qualified to make a broad and or authoritative statement concerning th e hydraulic variations of the aircraft. However, such a lack of knowledge very rarely keeps me quiet! In general, It All Depends! Depends on where the leak is located. If you can isolate the leaking system by setting a valve in neutral, you may be able to retain the standby fluid long enough to operate whatever is the most important at the time. Any tim e a hydraulic fluid loss becomes apparent, it is good practice to isolate a ny suspect system and to depressurize the entire system if that is practica l. I do have one old Commander war story. I was out one dark and stormy night when I lost the left engine. It was Aer o Commander serial number twenty-four and was still equipped with the T-han dle one shot feathering device. The one and only engine driven hydraulic pu mp was on the left engine. Fortunately for me, the landing gear free fell as designed. I did have a copilot available who could wobble the hand pump, but hard as he was pumping, the pressure was very slow to build. I elected to forgo the use of flap and save what pressure was being built up to use for the brakes. We later found out that the hand pump seals were quite badly worn. I should have picked that up when I built up hydraulic pressure before engine start , but that was the first and, at that time, the only Aero Commander I had e ver flown. I thought the number of strokes needed to build up adequate pre start pressure was normal. Later Commanders that I flew could get adequate prestart pressure by using only three or four strokes on the hand pump. So I guess the only thing I could add would be that it is important that t he hand pump be working well and that the pilot understand how to isolate v arious systems. My dumb luck held out and I was able to retain braking action by my friend' s furious pumping of the handle! Happy Skies,Old BobAKABob SiegfriedAncient Aviator628 West 86th StreetDowne rs Grove, IL 60516630 985-8502 Stearman N3977ABrookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/8/2008 6:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636@hot mail.com writes: Question for old Bob ( or anyone) . If my plane has a hose rupture, can I p umpfor brakes and flaps without pumping overboard, as long as the problem i s not inbrake or flap plumbing?? Thanks,Roland Gilliam AC 500 N6291b _________________________________________________________________ Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic. http://green.msn.com/galleries/photos/photos.aspx?gid=164&ocid=T003MSN5 1N1653A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would try to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollection is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Moe; Makes you wonder how AeroCommander did its famous one engine ferry from OK. to Washington to demonstrate its ability to fly one on one engine doesn't it. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Nico, I don't get it. My Commander will not taxi from a standing start on one engine, although J.B. told me that it could be done by turning the nose wheel as far as it would go away from the running engine, start out in a circle and slowly increase the circle diameter to a straight line? Regards, Moe N680RR 680Fp From: nico css Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:41 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas That jogged my memory, Richard. My straight 500 a strictly left-engine-starter. Once I had a young hot-shot fly a charter in her and I went out to make sure everything was taken care of, when I briefed him on the plane's peculiarities, such as, starting the left engine first at all times. He, of course, fired up the right engine because it was the furthest from the door in case they had to evacuate. Those Lyc's had no need for a second opinion when it came to starting; they fired up right away. So, there I was pushing back on the nose while he tried to get the left engine going. It wasn't hilarious at the time, but we laughed about it afterwards. He had to deal with his pax for the duration of the flight. Served him right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:04 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas OOOPS. Very different from you Piper ( not knocking Pipers, I have 5 of them) The braking system and steering system work off the same brake valves. Hence the first bit does the steering and then the brakes. Both systems therefore rely on the hydraulic pressure from the pumps. The parking brake valve shuts the system off between the calipers and the brake/steering valves thus locking the pressure on the brakes. The accumulator has nothing to do with it. Its only function really is to stop the pressure relief valve from chattering by essentially adding a little 'give' in the system. Not trusting the good old park brake is the reason we pressurize the system either by hand pump or electric before we start the engines. Nothing is more entertaining than a commander starting to move before the hydraulics pressurize. Particularly good in those older models that only have one pump and its not on the engine you decided to start. Just a thought from Down Under.( where everything works backwards etc) Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 5:57 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Let me think outloud hear. I have cleveland brakes on the 500B, and I "think" it is a separate hydraulic system from the "hydraulics" of the flaps and nose wheel steering. Correct me if I am wrong, but it should be no different than the "hydraulics" on my experimental, a piper, etc. So, if that is true. all of the comments about ailerons steering is interesting, educational, and irrelevant for directional control if the brakes are working. I'm 99% sure cause once had an issue with line boy dragging the commander, and the pilot flying had "locked" the brakes days before. I don't have a hydraulic accumulator - and the brakes were locked when he tried to drag - of course nothing was "on" That should stimulate some discussion. bobf 500B On 4/7/08, John Vormbaum wrote: Don, After reading your results and comparing them to mine, I wonder now if this is something the designers HAD thought of. Between you & me, we've had 4 complete hydraulic failures. In all cases the result was a non-event, essentially. In all cases we had brakes....the argument would then seem to be, "do we need hydraulics for flaps & gear?" We know the gear will come down too....so then we're just down to flaps. A no-flap landing isn't a big deal, if you're not flying in the bush, or into a 900-ft. strip. So suddenly, should I really be pulling the breaker? I might still argue that having an additional available system ready to come on-line might be cheap insurance....but now we're up to what, 4, 5, maybe 6 cases of hyd. failure on this list, all with safe outcomes. Not reversing myself, just pointing out what I'm seeing. /John dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, As I related previously, I have had 2 major hydraulic failures due to the rupture of a line (abrasion/wear) and failure of a flared fitting along a hydraulic line in a wing root. Each time I had sufficient pressure for the brakes upon landing. The gear extension was due to the bungies and springs for the nose gear. I don't know where the information came from that relates to ALL the hydraulic fluid being pumped overboard in the event of a line breaking. It didn't happen on my 500S. I'm not pulling the breaker, I have enough to remember prior to landing. Don -----Original Message----- *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert S. Randazzo *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 10:59 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Donnie, et al- I'm not so sure I agree with "the wise ones" who are pulling the breaker. Back in my chief piloting days we used to see "in cockpit solutions" to these types of things roll around the pilot ranks on occasion. This has led me to believe that if we do a comparative risk analysis on the per-flight chances of landing with the breaker pulled and suffering adverse consequences- versus the chance of suffering the hydraulic failure mentioned- we are very likely putting the airplane at a greater overall risk exposure by using a system in a manner for which it wasn't designed. Based on my knowledge of the system, it does seem to me that the system was designed to provide positive pressure in all failure modes EXCEPT a leak condition- but knowing how well my commander is built- I'm betting the engineers who dreamed these airplanes up were probably very comfortable with the risk level for such a failure and the ability of the pilot to handle it effectively. Other achillies heals on our commanders? Pulling all fuel from a central tank- AND pulling all fuel from a central sump. But again- I'm sure the designers weighed carefully the actual risk factors versus alternative design theories. I'm leaving the breaker in. Robert S. Randazzo *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Donnie Rose *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:14 PM *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Hey there John, yes per my POH and experience the pump will Paul you down to the sump giving you only minimal braking. That is why the wise ones are pulling the breaker (everyone included). **Donnie Rose *** **205/492-8444*** ----- Original Message ---- From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 7:10:57 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > Donnie, do you mean it would pump everything above the standpipe in the hydraulic fluid reservoir out? The standpipe is for the engine-driven pumps IIRC....the aux pump runs from a drain at the bottom of the reservoir. That's so you always have a little fluid in reserve for the aux pump to use for steering & brakes in a hydraulic failure event....so in a properly functioning hydraulic system (in a 500B anyway), the aux pump would pump EVERY DROP overboard if you had a hose rupture. Again....ask me how I know :-). With my total hydraulic failure, I went to an airport with an 8,000 foot runway (OK, it was Morris' home base :-), landed normally & held the nose off until the last taxiway, when I reduced power until I lost elevator authority. The nose settled slowly, I rolled a few feet, and the nose gear gently folded. I broke a bellcrank and damaged one gear door. No fuselage skin damage at all. Could have been worse. At least I didn't block the runway! After that I pulled the tail down, we locked the nose gear down, and towed it to Morris' hangar where he fixed it with a minimum of difficulty. I would be very reluctant to feather both engines on short final or after landing, after a hydraulic failure; I would rather retain some directional control. In a truly life-threatening situation I think I would still be able to use asymmetrical power & rudder to intentionally ground-loop the airplane. I've also found that windmilling props are quite a set of brakes on their own. The airplane feels much more slick with one feathered...and I think Bob Hoover's routine shows how slick the airframe is with two feathered! /J Donnie Rose wrote: > WCG, that's absolutely right since a Hyd. rupture would cause the aux > pump to pump everything above the sump overboard. > > > *Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444* > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 5:15:09 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > *As the French say, "Each to his own fish." At least I've been told > they say that. > > I always taught a flow pattern that linked the gear handle movement > with the aux hydraulic c/b. > > Gear up, pull the c/b. > > Gear down (after verifying stable hydraulic pressure) aux hydraulic > c/b set. > > I know there is a school of thought that says c/b's are not switches. > There is a school of thought that says a c/b can take thousands of resets. > > My suggestion has always been to replace the aux hydraulic c/b with a > breaker switch. I really like that idea because you can install the > switch so that up is off. (If this were not such a public place, I'd > suggest moving this switch next to the gear handle.) > > In normal ops, gear handle and switch position are the same: Gear up / > switch up = aux hydraulic pump disabled. > > Gear handle down / switch down (on) = aux pump enabled. > > With a hydraulic abnormal, the pump stays disabled until just prior to > touchdown, possibly restoring brakes, the most important appliance at > that moment. > > This may be a bit much for some Commander owners to wrap their minds > around but with a bit of time in type and a practiced flow pattern, > I'm convinced it's the way to go. > > I've been through 3 catastrophic hydraulic failures a n d the fact > that I disable the aux pump gave me brakes and nose wheel steering 2 > out of the 3 times. > > But then, I prefer salmon to flounder. > > Wing Commander Gordon > * > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net <mailto:dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:04 pm > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric fuel pump cycling > >> > > > > All, > > > > Just to share: > > > > In the last year, I have had two occasions of loss of all hyd. > > Pressure/fluid due to holes in the hydraulic lines. Each time I was > > airborne and the landing and roll out was no issue due to the remaining > > fluid in * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* * * *http://forums.matronics.com* * * *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * __________ NOD32 3008 (20080408) Information __________ * * * * ** * - The Commander-List Email Forum -* ** ** ** ** * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* ** * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* ** * --> http://forums.matronics.com* ** * - List Contribution Web Site -* * Thank you for your generous support!* * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* ** * * * * owse ink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. is)" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:================= ====== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Bob- Am I the only one seeing a joke buried in here someplace about it taking more pumps to keep the hydraulics pressurized in us AND our airplanes as we get older? Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would try to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollection is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B _____ Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL <http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016> Travel Guides. __________ NOD32 3014 (20080409) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
I Like it, I Like it! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Do not Archive In a message dated 4/9/2008 6:46:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com writes: Bob- Am I the only one seeing a joke buried in here someplace about it taking more pumps to keep the hydraulics pressurized in us AND our airplanes as we get older? Robert S. Randazzo (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and le t you all know. Roland From: BobsV35B(at)aol.comDate: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400Subject: Re: Comm ander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasTo: commander-list(at)matronics.com Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years sin ce I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would tr y to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollecti on is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies,Old BobAKABob SiegfriedAncient Aviator628 West 86th StreetDowne rs Grove, IL 60516630 985-8502 Stearman N3977ABrookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636@hot mail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine t akes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM _WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 09, 2008
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
That has to be the essence of cool!?? Loved the ground tracks -- and does the airplane in the middle of the nav display just look like a Commander, or is it? I always enjoy seeing (or reading about) working Commanders. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 09, 2008
I kinda remember the 40 thing. Half a dozen wouldn't have made squat in my 500. It couldn't have been tight, then, I suppose. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Gilliam Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and let you all know. Roland _____ From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would try to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollection is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B _____ <http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016> . " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_W L_Refresh_messenger_video_042008> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 10, 2008
Yup, that's a littly bitty Commander in the display. We wrote the program here, and built a little icon with a very familiar looking profile! Those wings are gorgeous. ----- Original Message ----- That has to be the essence of cool!?? Loved the ground tracks -- and does the airplane in the middle of the nav display just look like a Commander, or is it? I always enjoy seeing (or reading about) working Commanders. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 10, 2008
Steve... Sorry... 250 Neg scale... thinking before typing, then fingers add things. Thinking agl from Leica software setup.... DUH! David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Commander at work
Date: Apr 10, 2008
Steve... We also have the vid setup, but the forward looking viewfinder helps I guess??? As for the heater, Yes, we just today received our "found" pump (as removed, no tag) we sent it back to C&D and they OH'ed the unit, and 400 dollars plus the 385 dollars for the "as removed" unit put us back in heat... just in time for summer. Yea, they do still use the viewfinder sometimes. David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 10, 2008
Nico, Let's say you still had your 500. If your only hyd. pump went out ( no leak s) Would you pump up the entire system and lower the gear, or would you slow it down and let the gear fall, and th en pump it back up?? My manual does'ntaddress this issue. I assume that one pump up to 1000 psi would lower the gear? Thanks, Roland From: nico(at)cybersuperstore.comTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasDate: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:58:21 I kinda remember the 40 thing. Half a dozen wouldn't have made squat in my 500. It couldn't have been tight, then, I suppose. From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy GilliamSent: Wednesday, April 09 , 2008 5:01 PMTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and le t you all know. Roland From: BobsV35B(at)aol.comDate: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400Subject: Re: Comm ander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasTo: commander-list(at)matronics.com Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years sin ce I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would tr y to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollecti on is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies,Old BobAKABob SiegfriedAncient Aviator628 West 86th StreetDowne rs Grove, IL 60516630 985-8502 Stearman N3977ABrookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636@hot mail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine t akes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Ge t started! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_getintouch_042008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
I am suddenly imagining Commander pilots with one (right) Gorilla Arm, and one (left) twig. "Ja, on this side I am Ahhnold. I can pomp my hydraulics up wis ONE HUGE AHHM!" Nancy Gilliam wrote: > Nico, > > Let's say you still had your 500. If your only hyd. pump went out ( no > leaks) Would you pump up the entire system > and lower the gear, or would you slow it down and let the gear fall, > and then pump it back up?? My manual does'nt > address this issue. I assume that one pump up to 1000 psi would lower > the gear? > > Thanks, > > Roland > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:58:21 -0700 > > I kinda remember the 40 thing. Half a dozen wouldn't have made > squat in my 500. It couldn't have been tight, then, I suppose. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Nancy Gilliam > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:01 PM > *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > > Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes > only and let you all know. > > Roland > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com > Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400 > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Good Evening Roland, > > That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least > forty years since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just > isn't that good. I would try to inquire of more current pilots > because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is > being actuated other than the brakes. My recollection is that > it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half > a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > 628 West 86th Street > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8502 > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > > In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight > Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes: > > Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How > many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the > complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine takes about 40 ( for > the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. > > Thanks again, > > Roland AC500 N6291B > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > <http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016>. > > * > > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live > Messenger. Get started! > <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008> > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. > <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008> > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 10, 2008
Nico, My messaGE SHOULD HAVE read, lower the gear and then pump it back u p, or let the gear fall. Roland From: amg3636(at)hotmail.comTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Comma nder-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasDate: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:11:04 -04 00 Nico, Let's say you still had your 500. If your only hyd. pump went out ( n o leaks) Would you pump up the entire systemand lower the gear, or would yo u slow it down and let the gear fall, and then pump it back up?? My manual does'ntaddress this issue. I assume that one pump up to 1000 psi would low er the gear? Thanks, Roland From: nico(at)cybersuperstore.comTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasDate: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:58:21 I kinda remember the 40 thing. Half a dozen wouldn't have made squat in my 500. It couldn't have been tight, then, I suppose. From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy GilliamSent: Wednesday, April 09 , 2008 5:01 PMTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and le t you all know. Roland From: BobsV35B(at)aol.comDate: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400Subject: Re: Comm ander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump IdeasTo: commander-list(at)matronics.com Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years sin ce I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would tr y to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollecti on is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies,Old BobAKABob SiegfriedAncient Aviator628 West 86th StreetDowne rs Grove, IL 60516630 985-8502 Stearman N3977ABrookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636@hot mail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine t akes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Ge t started! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. _________________________________________________________________ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_getintouch_042008 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 10, 2008
Roland, I have gained a lot of food for thought after the incident in which I slowed down and let the gear fall out into a locked position. You perhaps already saw my video of a couple of fly-bys where the left gear momentarily dangled out of the wheel well when I pulled a bit of G's at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rcUM9MCPsA. What bugs me today is that I just sat there like a passenger having assumed that all the fluid was gone and there would be no steering or brakes. I cannot remember (this was more than 25 years ago) whether I tried the brakes, but I am sure that I didn't try the pump. It was weird watching the plane castor off the runway into the rough until it came to a stop. I kissed the Commander for not scaring me and waited for the fire truck. >From what has been said in this very informative thread (as usual <yawn>) I might have had enough hydraulic fluid below the stand pipe to pump the brakes and steering into action. Perhaps someone who knows can tell me if the 500 had a stand pipe in the reservoir and whether pumping that last bit would have been lost the same way the others were lost in the first place, making a pumping exercise useless. The leak came when the thin line to the pressure gauge in the instrument panel cracked and atomized all the fluid into the cabin. I was basically QBI in the cockpit for a while and I am sure had I smoked it would have caused a comet-like ball of fire, too. With all the oil everywhere inside the cabin, I just assumed that every drop was pumped out. I just took off from a rough strip which caused a lot of rattle, roll and shaking on takeoff and I was perhaps 100' up when the cabin was instantly filled with a sweet-smelling cloud, which I later found to be hydraulic oil. I didn't panic but just held everything still until the cloud dissipated, which took perhaps 15, 20 seconds or so, I cannot remember exactly, and the Commander must have known I couldn't see a thing and held the climb steady. I tossed my glasses and cleared as much of the windscreen and side window as I could with whatever I had in the cabin and then proceeded home. Weird, huh? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Gilliam Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:31 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Nico, My messaGE SHOULD HAVE read, lower the gear and then pump it back up, or let the gear fall. Roland _____ From: amg3636(at)hotmail.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:11:04 -0400 Nico, Let's say you still had your 500. If your only hyd. pump went out ( no leaks) Would you pump up the entire system and lower the gear, or would you slow it down and let the gear fall, and then pump it back up?? My manual does'nt address this issue. I assume that one pump up to 1000 psi would lower the gear? Thanks, Roland _____ From: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:58:21 -0700 I kinda remember the 40 thing. Half a dozen wouldn't have made squat in my 500. It couldn't have been tight, then, I suppose. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Gilliam Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and let you all know. Roland _____ From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would try to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollection is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B _____ <http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016> . " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_W L_Refresh_messenger_video_042008> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refres h_getintouch_042008> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refres h_getintouch_042008> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 10, 2008
Crikey, Nico- and I've had a few clouds OUTSIDE the airplane scare me- I can't imagine what that experience must have been like. Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:30 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Roland, I have gained a lot of food for thought after the incident in which I slowed down and let the gear fall out into a locked position. You perhaps already saw my video of a couple of fly-bys where the left gear momentarily dangled out of the wheel well when I pulled a bit of G's at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rcUM9MCPsA. What bugs me today is that I just sat there like a passenger having assumed that all the fluid was gone and there would be no steering or brakes. I cannot remember (this was more than 25 years ago) whether I tried the brakes, but I am sure that I didn't try the pump. It was weird watching the plane castor off the runway into the rough until it came to a stop. I kissed the Commander for not scaring me and waited for the fire truck. >From what has been said in this very informative thread (as usual <yawn>) I might have had enough hydraulic fluid below the stand pipe to pump the brakes and steering into action. Perhaps someone who knows can tell me if the 500 had a stand pipe in the reservoir and whether pumping that last bit would have been lost the same way the others were lost in the first place, making a pumping exercise useless. The leak came when the thin line to the pressure gauge in the instrument panel cracked and atomized all the fluid into the cabin. I was basically QBI in the cockpit for a while and I am sure had I smoked it would have caused a comet-like ball of fire, too. With all the oil everywhere inside the cabin, I just assumed that every drop was pumped out. I just took off from a rough strip which caused a lot of rattle, roll and shaking on takeoff and I was perhaps 100' up when the cabin was instantly filled with a sweet-smelling cloud, which I later found to be hydraulic oil. I didn't panic but just held everything still until the cloud dissipated, which took perhaps 15, 20 seconds or so, I cannot remember exactly, and the Commander must have known I couldn't see a thing and held the climb steady. I tossed my glasses and cleared as much of the windscreen and side window as I could with whatever I had in the cabin and then proceeded home. Weird, huh? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Gilliam Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:31 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Nico, My messaGE SHOULD HAVE read, lower the gear and then pump it back up, or let the gear fall. Roland _____ From: amg3636(at)hotmail.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:11:04 -0400 Nico, Let's say you still had your 500. If your only hyd. pump went out ( no leaks) Would you pump up the entire system and lower the gear, or would you slow it down and let the gear fall, and then pump it back up?? My manual does'nt address this issue. I assume that one pump up to 1000 psi would lower the gear? Thanks, Roland _____ From: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:58:21 -0700 I kinda remember the 40 thing. Half a dozen wouldn't have made squat in my 500. It couldn't have been tight, then, I suppose. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Gilliam Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and let you all know. Roland _____ From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would try to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollection is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B _____ Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL <http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016> Travel Guides. " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_W L_Refresh_messenger_video_042008> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refres h_getintouch_042008> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refres h_getintouch_042008> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c __________ NOD32 3017 (20080410) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas
Date: Apr 11, 2008
It stayed with me all this time and I must admit that there were moments that I thought I bought it. (It rhymes). I suppose every pilot has moments that stick around forever. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:47 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Crikey, Nico- and I've had a few clouds OUTSIDE the airplane scare me- I can't imagine what that experience must have been like. Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:30 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Roland, I have gained a lot of food for thought after the incident in which I slowed down and let the gear fall out into a locked position. You perhaps already saw my video of a couple of fly-bys where the left gear momentarily dangled out of the wheel well when I pulled a bit of G's at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rcUM9MCPsA. What bugs me today is that I just sat there like a passenger having assumed that all the fluid was gone and there would be no steering or brakes. I cannot remember (this was more than 25 years ago) whether I tried the brakes, but I am sure that I didn't try the pump. It was weird watching the plane castor off the runway into the rough until it came to a stop. I kissed the Commander for not scaring me and waited for the fire truck. >From what has been said in this very informative thread (as usual <yawn>) I might have had enough hydraulic fluid below the stand pipe to pump the brakes and steering into action. Perhaps someone who knows can tell me if the 500 had a stand pipe in the reservoir and whether pumping that last bit would have been lost the same way the others were lost in the first place, making a pumping exercise useless. The leak came when the thin line to the pressure gauge in the instrument panel cracked and atomized all the fluid into the cabin. I was basically QBI in the cockpit for a while and I am sure had I smoked it would have caused a comet-like ball of fire, too. With all the oil everywhere inside the cabin, I just assumed that every drop was pumped out. I just took off from a rough strip which caused a lot of rattle, roll and shaking on takeoff and I was perhaps 100' up when the cabin was instantly filled with a sweet-smelling cloud, which I later found to be hydraulic oil. I didn't panic but just held everything still until the cloud dissipated, which took perhaps 15, 20 seconds or so, I cannot remember exactly, and the Commander must have known I couldn't see a thing and held the climb steady. I tossed my glasses and cleared as much of the windscreen and side window as I could with whatever I had in the cabin and then proceeded home. Weird, huh? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Gilliam Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:31 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Nico, My messaGE SHOULD HAVE read, lower the gear and then pump it back up, or let the gear fall. Roland _____ From: amg3636(at)hotmail.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:11:04 -0400 Nico, Let's say you still had your 500. If your only hyd. pump went out ( no leaks) Would you pump up the entire system and lower the gear, or would you slow it down and let the gear fall, and then pump it back up?? My manual does'nt address this issue. I assume that one pump up to 1000 psi would lower the gear? Thanks, Roland _____ From: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:58:21 -0700 I kinda remember the 40 thing. Half a dozen wouldn't have made squat in my 500. It couldn't have been tight, then, I suppose. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Gilliam Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Bob, that was for the entire system, I will try with the brakes only and let you all know. Roland _____ From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:08:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Electric Hydraulic Pump Ideas Good Evening Roland, That seems high to me, but as I said before, it is at least forty years since I flew any Aero Commander and my memory just isn't that good. I would try to inquire of more current pilots because forty pumps seems like a lot to me if no component is being actuated other than the brakes. My recollection is that it only took a few pumps when the system was tight. Maybe half a dozen at most, but you know, I am getting senile! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/9/2008 5:26:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes: Thanks for the reply Bob, as always they are welcome. How many pumps would you guess it shoulds take to get the complete system up to 1000 psi? Mine takes about 40 ( for the complete system). and pressure stays up for about 2 days. Thanks again, Roland AC500 N6291B _____ <http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016> . " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started! <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_W L_Refresh_messenger_video_042008> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refres h_getintouch_042008> " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. <http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refres h_getintouch_042008> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution __________ NOD32 3017 (20080410) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Hats
Date: Apr 12, 2008
Commanderland When I first bought my Commander (2000) I bought some baseball type hats with a head on view of a commander and the words AeroCommander written above it I think, they had them in white and blue, several years later I order some more and they no longer had the picture of the plane on the hat. I really would have like to had the 'bird do-do' on the bill like a Captain's hat or military field grade or whatever. I ordered these I believe from one of the Commander service centers. Does anyone know where you can still order the Commander hats that have a head on view of the airplane? Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Hats
Date: Apr 13, 2008
I have a couple signed by Bob Hoover but do not know the source for them. Tom C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Girod To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 4:15 PM Subject: Commander-List: Hats Commanderland When I first bought my Commander (2000) I bought some baseball type hats with a head on view of a commander and the words AeroCommander written above it I think, they had them in white and blue, several years later I order some more and they no longer had the picture of the plane on the hat. I really would have like to had the 'bird do-do' on the bill like a Captain's hat or military field grade or whatever. I ordered these I believe from one of the Commander service centers. Does anyone know where you can still order the Commander hats that have a head on view of the airplane? Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Hats
Date: Apr 13, 2008
Folks; This may be a repeat, but I can't find it in my sent mail. When I got my Commander in 2000, I ordered some baseball type hats that had a head on picture of a Commander with "AeroCommander" printed (embroidered) above the airplane. They came and white and blue, years later I tried to order some more, but they no longer had the caps with the head on picture of a Commander. I believe I had ordered them from a Commander Service center. Does anyone know where you can get these type baseball caps with a picture of the commander embroidered on the hat, and does anyone know where you can get them with the 'bird do-do' on the bill, like a Captain or a Field Grade military hat has on the bill? Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Prop governor cable
Date: Apr 13, 2008
All, Let's start a new thread. On run up in Atlanta last evening upon cycling the prop the left cable broke so I could not feather the prop out of high pitch. Upon return to the FBO I opened the cowls and found a significant birds nest planted in the prop governor area and around the pulley. I don't know if that was the cause of the breakage but I was left with no way to feather the prop. After much thought I decided to attempt to return to Michigan as it was. I planned on throttling back to 17" after take off and use the rudder trim to fly coordinated and then set the autopilot. The four hour flight was totally uneventful other than the noise due to the uneven RPMs. I am very interested in the opinions of others and also where to get another cable. Don Falik 500S -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Commander-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:56 AM Subject: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/12/08 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha pter 08-04-12&Archive=Commander Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap ter 08-04-12&Archive=Commander =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/12/08: 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:16 PM - Hats (Don Girod) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Commander-List: Hats Commanderland When I first bought my Commander (2000) I bought some baseball type hats with a head on view of a commander and the words AeroCommander written above it I think, they had them in white and blue, several years later I order some more and they no longer had the picture of the plane on the hat. I really would have like to had the 'bird do-do' on the bill like a Captain's hat or military field grade or whatever. I ordered these I believe from one of the Commander service centers. Does anyone know where you can still order the Commander hats that have a head on view of the airplane? Don ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Prop governor cable
I wouldn't have done that.... fly with no way to feather. You can use an automotive cable that will work until you get a commander replacement. Are you sure it wasn't the prop governor instead of the cable? (I just had both our prop governors rebuilt in the last year). Again - I wouldn't fly with no way to feather.....Let's see what the grey hairs say (oh wait - I have grey hair) bobf On 4/13/08, dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: > > > All, > > Let's start a new thread. > > On run up in Atlanta last evening upon cycling the prop the left cable > broke so I could not feather the prop out of high pitch. Upon return to > the FBO I opened the cowls and found a significant birds nest planted in > the prop governor area and around the pulley. I don't know if that was > the cause of the breakage but I was left with no way to feather the > prop. After much thought I decided to attempt to return to Michigan as > it was. I planned on throttling back to 17" after take off and use the > rudder trim to fly coordinated and then set the autopilot. The four > hour flight was totally uneventful other than the noise due to the > uneven RPMs. > > I am very interested in the opinions of others and also where to get > another cable. > > Don Falik 500S > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Commander-List Digest Server > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:56 AM > To: Commander-List Digest List > Subject: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/12/08 > > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of > the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest > formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text > editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha > pter 08-04-12&Archive=Commander > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap > ter 08-04-12&Archive=Commander > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Commander-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 04/12/08: 1 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 05:16 PM - Hats (Don Girod) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net> > Subject: Commander-List: Hats > > Commanderland > > When I first bought my Commander (2000) I bought some baseball type hats > > with a head on view of a commander and the words AeroCommander written > above it I think, they had them in white and blue, several years later I > > order some more and they no longer had the picture of the plane on the > hat. I really would have like to had the 'bird do-do' on the bill like > a Captain's hat or military field grade or whatever. > > I ordered these I believe from one of the Commander service centers. > > Does anyone know where you can still order the Commander hats that have > a head on view of the airplane? > > Don > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Prop governor cable
Date: Apr 14, 2008
I found the tower and pulley on top of the prop governor and the cable was broken and loose on one side of the pulley. On the other side of the pulley the cable was tight. The mechanic that looked at it said that there is a spring that keeps the governor in high pitch in case of the cable breaking. I am very interested in what the issues are of running the engine with the propeller at high pitch and throttled back to 17". Prior to heading north I took a side trip to an airport 20 minutes south for fuel and to test the performance and temperatures and vibration on the airplane. Other than the noise of the unsynchronized RPMs there didn't appear to be any issues. Again, I am very interested in hearing from those that have much more experience than I. I also have grey hair. Don Falik -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:34 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Prop governor cable I wouldn't have done that.... fly with no way to feather. You can use an automotive cable that will work until you get a commander replacement. Are you sure it wasn't the prop governor instead of the cable? (I just had both our prop governors rebuilt in the last year). Again - I wouldn't fly with no way to feather.....Let's see what the grey hairs say (oh wait - I have grey hair) bobf On 4/13/08, dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, Let's start a new thread. On run up in Atlanta last evening upon cycling the prop the left cable broke so I could not feather the prop out of high pitch. Upon return to the FBO I opened the cowls and found a significant birds nest planted in the prop governor area and around the pulley. I don't know if that was the cause of the breakage but I was left with no way to feather the prop. After much thought I decided to attempt to return to Michigan as it was. I planned on throttling back to 17" after take off and use the rudder trim to fly coordinated and then set the autopilot. The four hour flight was totally uneventful other than the noise due to the uneven RPMs. I am very interested in the opinions of others and also where to get another cable. Don Falik 500S -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Commander-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:56 AM Subject: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/12/08 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701 <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Ch a> &View=html&Cha pter 08-04-12&Archive=Commander Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701 <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Cha p> &View=txt&Chap ter 08-04-12&Archive=Commander =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/12/08: 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:16 PM - Hats (Don Girod) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Commander-List: Hats Commanderland When I first bought my Commander (2000) I bought some baseball type hats with a head on view of a commander and the words AeroCommander written above it I think, they had them in white and blue, several years later I order some more and they no longer had the picture of the plane on the hat. I really would have like to had the 'bird do-do' on the bill like a Captain's hat or military field grade or whatever. I ordered these I believe from one of the Commander service centers. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Prop governor cable
Date: Apr 14, 2008
Don, >From my perspective (also grey) is that if you lost that engine, its windmilling prop might have dragged you down to the site of the accident. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 5:18 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Prop governor cable I found the tower and pulley on top of the prop governor and the cable was broken and loose on one side of the pulley. On the other side of the pulley the cable was tight. The mechanic that looked at it said that there is a spring that keeps the governor in high pitch in case of the cable breaking. I am very interested in what the issues are of running the engine with the propeller at high pitch and throttled back to 17". Prior to heading north I took a side trip to an airport 20 minutes south for fuel and to test the performance and temperatures and vibration on the airplane. Other than the noise of the unsynchronized RPMs there didn't appear to be any issues. Again, I am very interested in hearing from those that have much more experience than I. I also have grey hair. Don Falik -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:34 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Prop governor cable I wouldn't have done that.... fly with no way to feather. You can use an automotive cable that will work until you get a commander replacement. Are you sure it wasn't the prop governor instead of the cable? (I just had both our prop governors rebuilt in the last year). Again - I wouldn't fly with no way to feather.....Let's see what the grey hairs say (oh wait - I have grey hair) bobf On 4/13/08, dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: All, Let's start a new thread. On run up in Atlanta last evening upon cycling the prop the left cable broke so I could not feather the prop out of high pitch. Upon return to the FBO I opened the cowls and found a significant birds nest planted in the prop governor area and around the pulley. I don't know if that was the cause of the breakage but I was left with no way to feather the prop. After much thought I decided to attempt to return to Michigan as it was. I planned on throttling back to 17" after take off and use the rudder trim to fly coordinated and then set the autopilot. The four hour flight was totally uneventful other than the noise due to the uneven RPMs. I am very interested in the opinions of others and also where to get another cable. Don Falik 500S -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Commander-List Digest Server Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:56 AM Subject: Commander-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/12/08 * Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701 <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha> &View=html&Cha pter 08-04-12&Archive=Commander Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701 <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap> &View=txt&Chap ter 08-04-12&Archive=Commander ====================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ====================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/12/08: 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:16 PM - Hats (Don Girod) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Commander-List: Hats Commanderland When I first bought my Commander (2000) I bought some baseball type hats with a head on view of a commander and the words AeroCommander written above it I think, they had them in white and blue, several years later I order some more and they no longer had the picture of the plane on the hat. I really would have like to had the 'bird do-do' on the bill like a Captain's hat or military field grade or whatever. I ordered these I believe from one of the Commander service centers. - The Commander-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 2008
Subject: Re: Prop governor cable
Good Morning bobf, I think I can qualify as a grey beard! There are times when I would fly without the ability to feather the propellor on a twin engine aircraft. It all has to do with evaluation of the risk Fact is, I received my multiengine rating in an airplane that was not equipped with feathering propellors and that would not maintain altitude with one engine shut down. That was a Cessna Bobcat more commonly referred as a Bamboo Bomber. I also flew many Twin Beech Model C18s that did not have feathering propellors installed. It was before my time, but the first Douglas DC-3s were flown without full feathering propellors. So, the risk is just another one of those which we all have to evaluate each time we fly. Lots of folks will never get in a single engine airplane unless they have a parachute equipped ejection seat to sit on! However, in the case in question, I doubt if I would have flown the airplane without getting a ferry permit and flying only in compliance with the restrictions imposed by that permit. In my book, the greatest danger would be in getting caught doing something illegal. The risk involved in flying without a feathering propellor can be mitigated by good flight planning, but the risk of certificate action is difficult to avoid. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/14/2008 2:39:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bobf(at)feldtman.com writes: I wouldn't have done that.... fly with no way to feather. You can use an automotive cable that will work until you get a commander replacement. Are you sure it wasn't the prop governor instead of the cable? (I just had both our prop governors rebuilt in the last year). Again - I wouldn't fly with no way to feather.....Let's see what the grey hairs say (oh wait - I have grey hair) bobf **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Prop governor cable
Date: Apr 14, 2008
-----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Prop governor cable Don, >From my perspective (also grey) is that if you lost that engine, its windmilling prop might have dragged you down to the site of the accident. Nico _____ Nico, Thanks for your input. That was one factor that I did not consider in the risk equation. I do appreciate everyone's input and find it very informative. With the windmilling factor, I see now that single engine over the Smokey's was very risky if an engine was lost. I really don't expect praise for this but feel I can greatly learn from other's input. I flew to Alaska with my friend/IA/CFII and another friend the first year I had the Commander (2004). I met a second friend in Fairbanks and he joined us for a trip to Nome. My friend/IA/CFII chose not to go with us as I had inadvertently topped the tank and we would have been over gross for take off. When he realized that the second friend was going to accompany us for the rest of the trip around Alaska and back to Michigan, he got on a commercial flight back to Michigan while we were in Nome. His explanation to me was that with the 4 th. passenger and the gear we were taking that we would not be able to carry enough fuel to achieve decent length legs. He said that the plane would have no trouble getting airborne BUT if we lost an engine before gaining altitude and were over gross that is when the fun begins in a twin. I guess the same applies with a prop that is windmilling as Nico pointed out. He also pointed out that IF something was to happen and even if no one was injured; his certificates would be in jeopardy. Don ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Prop governor cable
Date: Apr 14, 2008
Don- I think we're all equal parts glad that you didn't have any trouble- and glad you can see that risk now too. All of us commander drivers need to stick together- thinning the herd is for other people. Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 7:34 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Prop governor cable -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Prop governor cable Don, >From my perspective (also grey) is that if you lost that engine, its windmilling prop might have dragged you down to the site of the accident. Nico _____ Nico, Thanks for your input. That was one factor that I did not consider in the risk equation. I do appreciate everyone's input and find it very informative. With the windmilling factor, I see now that single engine over the Smokey's was very risky if an engine was lost. I really don't expect praise for this but feel I can greatly learn from other's input. I flew to Alaska with my friend/IA/CFII and another friend the first year I had the Commander (2004). I met a second friend in Fairbanks and he joined us for a trip to Nome. My friend/IA/CFII chose not to go with us as I had inadvertently topped the tank and we would have been over gross for take off. When he realized that the second friend was going to accompany us for the rest of the trip around Alaska and back to Michigan, he got on a commercial flight back to Michigan while we were in Nome. His explanation to me was that with the 4 th. passenger and the gear we were taking that we would not be able to carry enough fuel to achieve decent length legs. He said that the plane would have no trouble getting airborne BUT if we lost an engine before gaining altitude and were over gross that is when the fun begins in a twin. I guess the same applies with a prop that is windmilling as Nico pointed out. He also pointed out that IF something was to happen and even if no one was injured; his certificates would be in jeopardy. Don __________ NOD32 3026 (20080414) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Think you can handle cross winds, hey?
Date: Apr 14, 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7S_QgE5MN8 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7S_QgE5MN8&feature=related> &feature=related ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Think you can handle crosswinds?
Blimey!!!! nico css wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7S_QgE5MN8&feature=related > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7S_QgE5MN8&feature=related> > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 15, 2008
There is a Commander on e-bay N292Z 680V (converted to turbine?) for sale on e-bay... Know anything about this guys? David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 15, 2008
Price is pretty low. Robert S. Randazzo From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Owens Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay There is a Commander on e-bay N292Z 680V (converted to turbine?) for sale on e-bay... Know anything about this guys? David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill __________ NOD32 3029 (20080415) Information __________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 15, 2008
From: bertberry1(at)aol.com
I spoke to the owner via email and he advised that it has not flown in years .=C2- It has less than 2000 hrs Total Time according to his email.=C2- I have some photos of it.=C2- No interior, needs alot of work. Bert -----Original Message----- From: Robert S. Randazzo <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> Sent: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 4:13 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay Price is pretty low =C2- Robert S. Randazzo =C2- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list -server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Owens Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay =C2- There is a Commander on e-bay=C2-=C2- N292Z=C2- 680V (converted to tur bine?) for sale on e-bay... Know anything about this guys?=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill =C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- __________ NOD32 3029 (20080415) Information __________ -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Brady" <westwind(at)hdiss.net>
Subject: Re: Prop governor cable
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Hey old Bob!......Once again our past lives seem to share a common thread. I also got my multi in a Bobcat based at MDW when it was listed as the world's busiest airport. I think Cessna dubbed it the Bobcat to give it a more macho sounding name for the military model which was the T-50 I think. You left out the often used nickname for the civilian model: Useless 78 (UC-78). If anyone remembers the old TV series Sky King the original Skybird was a Bobcat. I enjoyed my time in ours & with a light load & resonable altitude I was amazed at how much time you had with one back at idle to pick out the site of your impact. Later, in the midst of a hot & humid midwest summer, I found myself giving multi instruction in an early Piper Apache for a school who's policy was to put 3 students & an instructor in the aircraft on the theory that the back seaters would absorb some of the training procedures before taking their turns in the left front seat. One time when we landed to play musical chairs, one of my back seaters jumped to the ground & vowed that however long he lived he would never again allow his feet to be separated from mother earth........for a minute or two I seriously considered joining him. Fortunately our friendly FAA inspector convinced the boss that this training procedure was not in the best interests of aviation safety. Also I believe we were consuming more barfbags per hour than fuel. I do believe that the old Bobcat with its "Shaky-Jakes" could have pulled it off much better than the Apache with its "Little Lycs". Keep 'em flyin' Old Bob....Dan the desert duck. ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 7:36 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Prop governor cable Good Morning bobf, I think I can qualify as a grey beard! There are times when I would fly without the ability to feather the propellor on a twin engine aircraft. It all has to do with evaluation of the risk Fact is, I received my multiengine rating in an airplane that was not equipped with feathering propellors and that would not maintain altitude with one engine shut down. That was a Cessna Bobcat more commonly referred as a Bamboo Bomber. I also flew many Twin Beech Model C18s that did not have feathering propellors installed. It was before my time, but the first Douglas DC-3s were flown without full feathering propellors. So, the risk is just another one of those which we all have to evaluate each time we fly. Lots of folks will never get in a single engine airplane unless they have a parachute equipped ejection seat to sit on! However, in the case in question, I doubt if I would have flown the airplane without getting a ferry permit and flying only in compliance with the restrictions imposed by that permit. In my book, the greatest danger would be in getting caught doing something illegal. The risk involved in flying without a feathering propellor can be mitigated by good flight planning, but the risk of certificate action is difficult to avoid. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/14/2008 2:39:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bobf(at)feldtman.com writes: I wouldn't have done that.... fly with no way to feather. You can use an automotive cable that will work until you get a commander replacement. Are you sure it wasn't the prop governor instead of the cable? (I just had both our prop governors rebuilt in the last year). Again - I wouldn't fly with no way to feather.....Let's see what the grey hairs say (oh wait - I have grey hair) bobf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 4/14/2008 9:26 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Prop governor cable
Date: Apr 16, 2008
it was the "song bird" gmc From: westwind(at)hdiss.netTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Comman der-List: Prop governor cableDate: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:41:20 -0700 Hey old Bob!......Once again our past lives seem to share a common thread. I also got my multi in a Bobcat based at MDW when it was listed as the worl d's busiest airport. I think Cessna dubbed it the Bobcat to give it a more macho sounding name for the military model which was the T-50 I think. You left out the often used nickname for the civilian model: Useless 78 (UC-78 ). If anyone remembers the old TV series Sky King the original Skybird was a Bobcat. I enjoyed my time in ours & with a light load & resonable altitud e I was amazed at how much time you had with one back at idle to pick out t he site of your impact. Later, in the midst of a hot & humid midwest summer , I found myself giving multi instruction in an early Piper Apache for a sc hool who's policy was to put 3 students & an instructor in the aircraft on the theory that the back seaters would absorb some of the training procedur es before taking their turns in the left front seat. One time when we lande d to play musical chairs, one of my back seaters jumped to the ground & vow ed that however long he lived he would never again allow his feet to be sep arated from mother earth........for a minute or two I seriously considered joining him. Fortunately our friendly FAA inspector convinced the boss that this training procedure was not in the best interests of aviation safety. Also I believe we were consuming more barfbags per hour than fuel. I do bel ieve that the old Bobcat with its "Shaky-Jakes" could have pulled it off m uch better than the Apache with its "Little Lycs". Keep 'em flyin' Old Bob. ...Dan the desert duck. ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 7:36 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Prop governor cable Good Morning bobf, I think I can qualify as a grey beard! There are times when I would fly without the ability to feather the propell or on a twin engine aircraft. It all has to do with evaluation of the risk Fact is, I received my multiengine rating in an airplane that was not equip ped with feathering propellors and that would not maintain altitude with on e engine shut down. That was a Cessna Bobcat more commonly referred as a Ba mboo Bomber. I also flew many Twin Beech Model C18s that did not have feath ering propellors installed. It was before my time, but the first Douglas DC -3s were flown without full feathering propellors. So, the risk is just another one of those which we all have to evaluate eac h time we fly. Lots of folks will never get in a single engine airplane un less they have a parachute equipped ejection seat to sit on! However, in the case in question, I doubt if I would have flown the airplan e without getting a ferry permit and flying only in compliance with the res trictions imposed by that permit. In my book, the greatest danger would be in getting caught doing something illegal. The risk involved in flying without a feathering propellor can be mitigated by good flight planning, but the risk of certificate action is difficult t o avoid. Happy Skies,Old BobAKABob SiegfriedAncient Aviator628 West 86th StreetDowne rs Grove, IL 60516630 985-8502 Stearman N3977ABrookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 4/14/2008 2:39:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bobf@feldt man.com writes: I wouldn't have done that.... fly with no way to feather. You can use an au tomotive cable that will work until you get a commander replacement. Are yo u sure it wasn't the prop governor instead of the cable? (I just had both o ur prop governors rebuilt in the last year). Again - I wouldn't fly with no way to feather.....Let's see what the grey h airs say (oh wait - I have grey hair) bobf It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 4/14/2008 9:26 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Subject: Prop governor cable
Good Morning Dan, I received my multi-engine training in 1950 while working for Tufts Edgecombe at Elmhurst Airport which was just northwest of the Outer Marker for Rwy 13 Right at Midway. One of his bombers had the 300 Lycomings installed. It would actually maintain altitude with one engine throttled back to idle as long as we were way below gross. Spent the summer flying charters with the Cessnas to Northern Wisconsin resorts. A couple years after I started with UAL in 1951, my old boss got a set of Hartzell full feathering props approved on his Lycoming powered Bobcat. It would easily out perform the Apache when it came on the scene. We must have crossed paths somewhere between Midway and Elmhurst as I have continued to fly in the area ever since. Who's Apache were you flying? Hope you are enjoying the desert! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Do Not Archive In a message dated 4/16/2008 5:44:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time, westwind(at)hdiss.net writes: I do believe that the old Bobcat with its "Shaky-Jakes" could have pulled it off much better than the Apache with its "Little Lycs". Keep 'em flyin' Old Bob....Dan the desert duck. **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Bert... Anyone know WHAT this is? Is it a conversion or factory turbines... (pre Century) What does that mean? The small engines? David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
No it was a 680T with the TPE331-43's and was later converted to a 680V. Not exactly sure what was changed besides the engines and props, perhaps Barry could tell us. It was always a Turbo Commander, just a very early model. Only the 22nd made. Bert **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Sorry it HAD TPE331-29A's and they were changed to TPE331-43's I think.... **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Hi All, The 680V was not really that much different to the 680T. Major items were: Increased MTOW from 8,950 lb. to 9,400 lb. Some had the "Miller" nose incorporated. Some had the "Picture" or "Panoramic" windows incorporated. Besides those built by the factory as a 680V (26 in all), numerous others were converted from a 680T (possibly 51). Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay No it was a 680T with the TPE331-43's and was later converted to a 680V. Not exactly sure what was changed besides the engines and props, perhaps Barry could tell us. It was always a Turbo Commander, just a very early model. Only the 22nd made. Bert ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 16, 2008
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Anyone know WHAT this is? Is it a conversion or factory turbines... (pre Century) What does that mean? The small engines? The AC680T was the first production model Turbo Commander.? All of the 680 Turbine series had the Garrett dash 43 engines, ranging from 43, 43A and 43BL.?? The Century series were any dash number at or above 100, such as TPE 331-151K.? Saying this is a 680T with a -43A conversion means they put the later engine on the earlier airframe. The -43 series did not offer much more power than the piston engine on the AC680FL and were very temperature critical, meaning as soon as it was over 15C, you were losing power.? Each upgrade dash number was slight improvement. An "interesting" aspect of this airplane is the "engines 200 SMOH by Garrett/1538 SMOH by AiResearch."? I don't think Garrett/AiResearch has supported this engine in a long long time.? Last facility I knew that supported this engine was Bob Hancock of Hancock Turbines outside of Nashville, TN., but then the airplane has not flown much at all, so the engine SMOH statement is probably right. The AC680T used a hydraulic (Skydrol) powered cabin supercharger.? The AC680V and up used bleed air.? The AC680W was the first all Weather model (certified known ice) and a Century Conversion that would place a flat-rated 525shp all the way to altitude is a screamer. The Achilles Heel of this model is actually the New York Airbrake 3000 psi hydraulic pump used to drive the cabin supercharger.? The utility system is stepped down to the normal Commander hydraulic system pressures.? This pump is damn near impossible to find.? The two 680Ts I was involved with burned up these pumps within a few hours -- turned out they were lower output pumps field modified to make 3000 psi, or so thought the fellow supplying us with them.? Not so. If you remove the pressurization system, a lower output pump could be used.??? If used as an upressurized camera ship, this could be OK ... if being equipped with an orphaned engine is OK.? To be fair, if you're not too far from Hancock's place, you'd have excellent support. This all off the top of my head ... or the more aptly, the bottom where all the facts are mixed in with all kinds of sediment.? I trust Sir Barry to come up with the proper dash numbers, engine powers, etc. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Now THAT is why this forum is so important. Thanks for the lesson as well. Bert -----Original Message----- From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:31:17 To:commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay Anyone know WHAT this is? Is it a conversion or factory turbines... (pre Century) What does that mean? The small engines? The AC680T was the first production model Turbo Commander. All of the 680 Turbine series had the Garrett dash 43 engines, ranging from 43, 43A and 43BL. The Century series were any dash number at or above 100, such as TPE 331-151K. Saying this is a 680T with a -43A conversion means they put the later engine on the earlier airframe. The -43 series did not offer much more power than the piston engine on the AC680FL and were very temperature critical, meaning as soon as it was over 15C, you were losing power. Each upgrade dash number was slight improvement. An "interesting" aspect of this airplane is the "engines 200 SMOH by Garrett/1538 SMOH by AiResearch." I don't think Garrett/AiResearch has supported this engine in a long long time. Last facility I knew that supported this engine was Bob Hancock of Hancock Turbines outside of Nashville, TN., but then the airplane has not flown much at all, so the engine SMOH statement is probably right. The AC680T used a hydraulic (Skydrol) powered cabin supercharger. The AC680V and up used bleed air. The AC680W was the first all Weather model (certified known ice) and a Century Conversion that would place a flat-rated 525shp all the way to altitude is a scr eamer. The Achilles Heel of this model is actually the New York Airbrake 3000 psi hydraulic pump used to drive the cabin supercharger. The utility system is stepped down to the normal Commander hydraulic system pressures. This pump is damn near impossible to find. The two 680Ts I was involved with burned up these pumps within a few hours -- turned out they were lower output pumps field modified to make 3000 psi, or so thought the fellow supplying us with them. Not so. If you remove the pressurization system, a lower output pump could be used. If used as an upressurized camera ship, this could be OK ... if being equipped with an orphaned engine is OK. To be fair, if you're not too far from Hancock's place, you'd have excellent support. This all off the top of my head ... or the more aptly, the bottom where all the facts are mixed in with all kinds of sediment. I trust Sir Barry to come up with the proper dash numbers, engine powers, etc. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ---------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Hello All, When it first came on the market, the 680T had TPE331-29A engines and a wing span of 49ft. 0.56 inches. The factory called all of these back and they were re-engined with TPE331-43 engines and had the wing span reduced to 44ft. 9.7 inches. They also had their original 84-inch diameter props replaced with 90-inch ones. As the Wing Commander points out, some Commanders that had the pre TPE331-5 series engines had them replaced with TPE-331-1-151K and were known as "Century Turbos". Regarding the TPE331-43BL, these were a factory standard installation introduced on the 680W "Turbo II" Commander, but the first Commander to utilise that engine with bleed air for the pressurization and environmental systems was the Model 681 "Hawk". Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith S. Gordon To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay Anyone know WHAT this is? Is it a conversion or factory turbines... (pre Century) What does that mean? The small engines? The AC680T was the first production model Turbo Commander. All of the 680 Turbine series had the Garrett dash 43 engines, ranging from 43, 43A and 43BL. The Century series were any dash number at or above 100, such as TPE 331-151K. Saying this is a 680T with a -43A conversion means they put the later engine on the earlier airframe. The -43 series did not offer much more power than the piston engine on the AC680FL and were very temperature critical, meaning as soon as it was over 15C, you were losing power. Each upgrade dash number was slight improvement. An "interesting" aspect of this airplane is the "engines 200 SMOH by Garrett/1538 SMOH by AiResearch." I don't think Garrett/AiResearch has supported this engine in a long long time. Last facility I knew that supported this engine was Bob Hancock of Hancock Turbines outside of Nashville, TN., but then the airplane has not flown much at all, so the engine SMOH statement is probably right. The AC680T used a hydraulic (Skydrol) powered cabin supercharger. The AC680V and up used bleed air. The AC680W was the first all Weather model (certified known ice) and a Century Conversion that would place a flat-rated 525shp all the way to altitude is a scr eamer. The Achilles Heel of this model is actually the New York Airbrake 3000 psi hydraulic pump used to drive the cabin supercharger. The utility system is stepped down to the normal Commander hydraulic system pressures. This pump is damn near impossible to find. The two 680Ts I was involved with burned up these pumps within a few hours -- turned out they were lower output pumps field modified to make 3000 psi, or so thought the fellow supplying us with them. Not so. If you remove the pressurization system, a lower output pump could be used. If used as an upressurized camera ship, this could be OK ... if being equipped with an orphaned engine is OK. To be fair, if you're not too far from Hancock's place, you'd have excellent support. This all off the top of my head ... or the more aptly, the bottom where all the facts are mixed in with all kinds of sediment. I trust Sir Barry to come up with the proper dash numbers, engine powers, etc. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Hear that David? Now what was the limit on my company credit card? This would be cheaper than the Navajo engines I've been pushing for (fat chance.....). If used as an upressurized camera ship, this could be OK ... if being equipped with an orphaned engine is OK. To be fair, if you're not too far from Hancock's place, you'd have excellent support. ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith S. Gordon To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay Anyone know WHAT this is? Is it a conversion or factory turbines... (pre Century) What does that mean? The small engines? The AC680T was the first production model Turbo Commander. All of the 680 Turbine series had the Garrett dash 43 engines, ranging from 43, 43A and 43BL. The Century series were any dash number at or above 100, such as TPE 331-151K. Saying this is a 680T with a -43A conversion means they put the later engine on the earlier airframe. The -43 series did not offer much more power than the piston engine on the AC680FL and were very temperature critical, meaning as soon as it was over 15C, you were losing power. Each upgrade dash number was slight improvement. An "interesting" aspect of this airplane is the "engines 200 SMOH by Garrett/1538 SMOH by AiResearch." I don't think Garrett/AiResearch has supported this engine in a long long time. Last facility I knew that supported this engine was Bob Hancock of Hancock Turbines outside of Nashville, TN., but then the airplane has not flown much at all, so the engine SMOH statement is probably right. The AC680T used a hydraulic (Skydrol) powered cabin supercharger. The AC680V and up used bleed air. The AC680W was the first all Weather model (certified known ice) and a Century Conversion that would place a flat-rated 525shp all the way to altitude is a scr eamer. The Achilles Heel of this model is actually the New York Airbrake 3000 psi hydraulic pump used to drive the cabin supercharger. The utility system is stepped down to the normal Commander hydraulic system pressures. This pump is damn near impossible to find. The two 680Ts I was involved with burned up these pumps within a few hours -- turned out they were lower output pumps field modified to make 3000 psi, or so thought the fellow supplying us with them. Not so. If you remove the pressurization system, a lower output pump could be used. If used as an upressurized camera ship, this could be OK ... if being equipped with an orphaned engine is OK. To be fair, if you're not too far from Hancock's place, you'd have excellent support. This all off the top of my head ... or the more aptly, the bottom where all the facts are mixed in with all kinds of sediment. I trust Sir Barry to come up with the proper dash numbers, engine powers, etc. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harry Merritt" <avtec2(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Ihave a pair of IO-540M1A5 Engines w/ Logs Harry 321 267-3141 ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve at Col-East To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:17 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay Hear that David? Now what was the limit on my company credit card? This would be cheaper than the Navajo engines I've been pushing for (fat chance.....). If used as an upressurized camera ship, this could be OK ... if being equipped with an orphaned engine is OK. To be fair, if you're not too far from Hancock's place, you'd have excellent support. ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith S. Gordon To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay Anyone know WHAT this is? Is it a conversion or factory turbines... (pre Century) What does that mean? The small engines? The AC680T was the first production model Turbo Commander. All of the 680 Turbine series had the Garrett dash 43 engines, ranging from 43, 43A and 43BL. The Century series were any dash number at or above 100, such as TPE 331-151K. Saying this is a 680T with a -43A conversion means they put the later engine on the earlier airframe. The -43 series did not offer much more power than the piston engine on the AC680FL and were very temperature critical, meaning as soon as it was over 15C, you were losing power. Each upgrade dash number was slight improvement. An "interesting" aspect of this airplane is the "engines 200 SMOH by Garrett/1538 SMOH by AiResearch." I don't think Garrett/AiResearch has supported this engine in a long long time. Last facility I knew that supported this engine was Bob Hancock of Hancock Turbines outside of Nashville, TN., but then the airplane has not flown much at all, so the engine SMOH statement is probably right. The AC680T used a hydraulic (Skydrol) powered cabin supercharger. The AC680V and up used bleed air. The AC680W was the first all Weather model (certified known ice) and a Century Conversion that would place a flat-rated 525shp all the way to altitude is a scr eamer. The Achilles Heel of this model is actually the New York Airbrake 3000 psi hydraulic pump used to drive the cabin supercharger. The utility system is stepped down to the normal Commander hydraulic system pressures. This pump is damn near impossible to find. The two 680Ts I was involved with burned up these pumps within a few hours -- turned out they were lower output pumps field modified to make 3000 psi, or so thought the fellow supplying us with them. Not so. If you remove the pressurization system, a lower output pump could be used. If used as an upressurized camera ship, this could be OK ... if being equipped with an orphaned engine is OK. To be fair, if you're not too far from Hancock's place, you'd have excellent support. This all off the top of my head ... or the more aptly, the bottom where all the facts are mixed in with all kinds of sediment. I trust Sir Barry to come up with the proper dash numbers, engine powers, etc. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
Date: Apr 16, 2008
To Bert, Bobs V, Barry, Kieth, Steve... This seems to be a pretty "horse of a different color" aircraft. Seems fair to say parts would be a good investment... David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander on E-bay
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Looks like a good project for someone with deep pockets. -----Original Message----- From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:15:23 To: Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander on E-bay To Bert, Bobs V, Barry, Kieth, Steve... This seems to be a pretty "horse of a different color" aircraft. Seems fair to say parts would be a good investment... David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2008
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Blast from the past...
Howdy friends - both old and just not introduced yet. Chris Schuermann here. Haven't been on the list in many a year, but hopefully there's still a few old faces around here who remember me. Still clinging to life in Oklahoma, working 100 hour weeks, and trying to fit a little flying and fun in between large chunks of reality. Anyway, I received the following email and figured JB or someone here would be much better suited to help these folks out. cheers, Chris Schuermann -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Aero commander SRM - 680, 690 , 500S Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:40:54 +1000 From: Jess Smith <jesssmith(at)gamgroup.net> Dear Sir I am writing on behalf of General Aviation Maintenance (GAM Group) -- Melbourne Australia, to kindly request your Assistance on below matter. Currently we are operating 34 Aero Commander Aircrafts on our fleet, and we are trying to get hold of a COPY Of Structural Repair Manual (SRM) for a 690, 680 or 500s Series. We are more than happy to purchase a Copy if you have one in your organisation and please contact me with a return mail, so I could organise necessary arrangements ASAP. Further more this copy *_DOES NOT_* have to be a current updated version, as we are in the process of certifying repair solution through local Authorities and this SRM will be serve only as a guide to prepare Engineering Documentations. Thank you In Advance, Regards Shaminda Chandrasena Aeronautical Engineer. PS- It would be greatly appreciated if you could direct me to some one who hold a SRM, just in case you don't have a SRM In your organisation. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Aero Commander 680,690, 500s SRM
Date: Apr 16, 2008
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Gentlemen, Can anyone help with this request? Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jess Smith <jesssmith(at)gamgroup.net> Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 4:51 pm Subject: Aero Commander 680,690, 500s SRM =C2- =C2- Dear Sir =C2- I am writing on behalf of General Aviation Maintenance (GAM Group) =93 Melbourne Au stralia, to kindly request your Assistance on below matter. Currently we are operating 34 Aero Commander Aircrafts on our fleet, and we are trying to get hold of a COPY Of Structural Repair Manual (SRM) for a 690, 680 or 500s Seri es. We are more than happy to purchase a Copy if you have one in your organisation and please contact me w ith a return mail, so I could organise necessary arrangements ASAP.=C2- Further more this copy DOES NOT have to be a current updated version, as we are in the process of certifying repair solution through local Authorities and t his SRM will be serve only as a guide to prepare Engineering Documentations. =C2- =C2- Thank you In Advance, =C2- Regards =C2- Shaminda Chandrasena Aeronautical Engineer. =C2- PS- It would be greatly appreciated if you could direct me to some one who hold a SRM, ju st in case you don=99t have a SRM In your organisation. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blast from the past...
Date: Apr 16, 2008
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Chris! You just couldn't stay away from Commanders, could you?? Nice to see your post.?? I'm lurking around here still, answering questions and offering useless advice when I can.? Am very busy, flying the Falcon 20 full time and living the lesson (again) about volunteering.?? Got hip deep in the Las Vegas airspace redesign, representing Biz Av on RNAV SIDs and STARs development, am the lead on building an RNAV SID at Henderson (KHND) and got drafted into a national work group for Pilot/Controller Procedures & Phraseology. With all that, I get about 180 emails a day and do my best to keep my eye on the Twin Commander net.?? There's still a few of us left and lots of new talent has risen to fill the gaps left by those who have moved on to other, lesser, aviation products.? ;-) Best, Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 4:54 pm Subject: Commander-List: Blast from the past... Howdy friends - both old and just not introduced yet.? Chris Schuermann here.?? Haven't been on the list in many a year, but hopefully there's still a few old faces around here who remember me.? Still clinging to life in Oklahoma, working 100 hour weeks, and trying to fit a little flying and fun in between large chunks of reality. Anyway, I received the following email and figured JB or someone here would be much better suited to help these folks out. cheers, Chris Schuermann ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Blast from the past...
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Well, well. It's good to hear from you again, Chris. 100 hour weeks? That's rough, man. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 4:54 PM Subject: Commander-List: Blast from the past... Howdy friends - both old and just not introduced yet. Chris Schuermann here. Haven't been on the list in many a year, but hopefully there's still a few old faces around here who remember me. Still clinging to life in Oklahoma, working 100 hour weeks, and trying to fit a little flying and fun in between large chunks of reality. Anyway, I received the following email and figured JB or someone here would be much better suited to help these folks out. cheers, Chris Schuermann -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Aero commander SRM - 680, 690 , 500S Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:40:54 +1000 From: Jess Smith <mailto:jesssmith(at)gamgroup.net> <jesssmith(at)gamgroup.net> Dear Sir I am writing on behalf of General Aviation Maintenance (GAM Group) - Melbourne Australia, to kindly request your Assistance on below matter. Currently we are operating 34 Aero Commander Aircrafts on our fleet, and we are trying to get hold of a COPY Of Structural Repair Manual (SRM) for a 690, 680 or 500s Series. We are more than happy to purchase a Copy if you have one in your organisation and please contact me with a return mail, so I could organise necessary arrangements ASAP. Further more this copy DOES NOT have to be a current updated version, as we are in the process of certifying repair solution through local Authorities and this SRM will be serve only as a guide to prepare Engineering Documentations. Thank you In Advance, Regards Shaminda Chandrasena Aeronautical Engineer. PS- It would be greatly appreciated if you could direct me to some one who hold a SRM, just in case you don't have a SRM In your organisation. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Aero Commander 680,690, 500s SRM
Date: Apr 17, 2008
G'day Keith, Chris and folks, I have spoken to Shaminda today and put him in contact with Mr Pence @ TCAC. With the passing of Steve the company has lost a huge wealth of Commander contacts and appreciates any help available Great to see that you are still lurking Captain Cloudcraft! Are you planning to get along to the Flyin at Wiley Post in September? Chris...has got to be close to your backyard?? Cheers from Oz Russell ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd: Aero Commander 680,690, 500s SRM
Date: Apr 17, 2008
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
G'Day Russell!? Nice to know you're still around, even if you are upside down.? Shaminda says TCAC can't supply him with a Structures Repair Manual, which is beyond my understanding, so I hope someone in this hemisphere can help the fleet out Down Under. Now that would be an impressive achievement for the Twin Commander Flight Group. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 8:07 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fwd: Aero Commander 680,690, 500s SRM G'day Keith, Chris and folks, I have spoken to Shaminda today and put him in contact with Mr Pence @ TCAC. With the passing of Steve the company has lost a huge wealth of Commander contacts and appreciates any help available Great to see that you are still lurking Captain Cloudcraft! Are you planning to get along to the Flyin at Wiley Post in September? Chris...has got to be close to your backyard?? Cheers from Oz Russell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Aero Commander 680,690, 500s SRM
Date: Apr 17, 2008
G'day Keith, I think we have the problem solved...Shaminda had not been able to contact TCAC...somehow had the wrong contact details. I have put him directly in touch with Geoff Pence and it should get sorted. Cheers from upside down land (of course not the way we see it!) Russell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: OK, Who IS this?
Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDNan_tbBss&NR=1 It's a 9-min. video of Commanders....including pics taken from the copilot seat of N222JS! I know it's one of you guys! ...or someone who should be on the list. Especially considering that I'm pretty sure I know at least HALF the people in this video! Jimbob, you're there... Chris & Dan, you're there too... Who is the upside-down red/white airplane? Crunk? I've seen many of these pics, but have never seen them assembled all in one place.....seriously....who ARE you? Cheers, /John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OK, Who IS this?
Date: Apr 17, 2008
Hi John, I too have seen the vast majority of the pics before. Many of them are already posted on various Internet sites, mostly airliners.net but some could be from myaviation.net or jetphotos.net. If you look at the bottom of the photo, most have a black band with Airliners.net on it. But, I think some of the pics have been 'lifted' from "our" website too. I seem to recall that I sent in the two shots that have the Blue Angels, as that's Arnie Palmer in his Model 500. Is the upside-down one Al Hoffman's 500? I've got a feeling it isn't anyone on the list who has compiled this. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:47 AM


April 06, 2008 - April 17, 2008

Commander-Archive.digest.vol-cy