Commander-Archive.digest.vol-da

April 25, 2008 - May 26, 2008



        Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders
      
      
        I have a 680. What caused the spars to break?
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
        Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings 
      at AOL Autos.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 25, 2008
Subject: Re: Survey Commanders
Ron, Thank you very much. I had the spars dye penetrated about a year and a half ago prior to buying the airplane and everything checked out o.k. Again thank you very much and if you have any other advice,I would appreciate hearing from you. Gil **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: brakes
Date: Apr 25, 2008
Donnie, While never having purchased that part number from them, it seems that Aircraft Spruce is a very good source for Cleveland parts. They seem to be happy to special order the things that they do not have in stock. Moe N680RR 680Fp From: Donnie Rose Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 1:16 PM Subject: Commander-List: brakes Good afternoon Ladies and Gents, Does anyone know the beat (and least expensive place to get Cleveland pads # 66-90? Thanks in advance, Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Be a better friend, newshound, and 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2008
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: brakes
Thanks Moe, I'll check that out, Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Original Message ---- From: Moe-rosspistons <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:01:38 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: brakes Donnie, While never having purchased that part number from them, it seems that Aircraft Spruce is a very good source for Cleveland parts. They seem to be happy to special order the things that they do not have in stock. Moe N680RR 680Fp From: Donnie Rose Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 1:16 PM Subject: Commander-List: brakes Good afternoon Ladies and Gents, Does anyone know the beat (and least expensive place to get Cleveland pads # 66-90? Thanks in advance, Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 Be a better friend, newshound, and 3D============================================ href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 3D============================================ href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D============================================ href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D============================================ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KenWHyde(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 26, 2008
Subject: Re: Cleveland 199-88 brake kit (Beech50) STC,d for used
on Co... Thanks Bill, I will give them a try. Ken **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KenWHyde(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 26, 2008
Subject: Re: Cleveland 199-88 brake kit (Beech50) STC,d for used
on C... Thanks Mike Ken **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Four New Email Lists At Matronics!!
Dear Listers, I have added four new Lists to the Matronics line up today. These include the following categories: Citabria-List Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, and Champ Zenith601-List Zenair Zodiac CH 601 Zenith640-List Zenair Zodiac CH 640 Zenith701801-List Zenair STOL CH 701 and CH 801 All services are enabled and now available including Search, Browse, Digest, Archives, Forums, Chat, etc., etc. etc...: Citabria: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?citabria-list Zenith601: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith601-list Zenith640: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith640-list Zenith701801: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith701801-list To subscribe, go to the Matronics Email List Subscription Form: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe To check the new Lists out on the Matronics Forum go here: http://forums.matronics.com Enjoy the new Lists!! Don't forget me during the Fund Raiser! :-) Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Survey Commanders
Date: Apr 27, 2008
_____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Read this: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf _____ From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:49:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders I have a 680. What caused the spars to break? _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> Autos. " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! <http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=e n-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Brady" <westwind(at)hdiss.net>
Subject: Re: Survey Commanders
Date: Apr 27, 2008
Gulp!,indeed! ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Read this: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:49:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders To: commander-list(at)matronics.com I have a 680. What caused the spars to break? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 4/23/2008 8:12 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Survey Commanders
Date: Apr 28, 2008
Before you go Gulp. Understand that CASA makes your FAA look totally professional. This paper was written by an academic and as history has proved we have very strong airplanes. Take note that the wing is essentially a fail safe design. If it was not then a whole lot more airplanes would have crashed. One classic example in the report is the case of ZK-BWA and the pictures. What was not explained was that this aircraft had been badly damaged previously and not repaired correctly. The other problem is that a lot of the corrosion found in Aussie aircraft was due to the fact that they had been used in low level coastal work and really had not been looked after. This paper also ends in about 1995. I believe that in the 1999 the FAA had Twin Commander almost re certify their wings at great expense, destroying numerous airframes. Strangely enough they passed with flying colours. (which must have pissed the FAA off no end). Even our wonderful CASA went on to their 8th amendment of their AD on spar life http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ac/AC-066.pdf . I believe that a lot of accidents and especially in flight break ups have had a lot to do with the airframe being stressed way beyond its limits, usually in foul weather. You just have to do little thinking looking at the size of the things tale and then imagine the loads it has to take especially if you don't go with the flow and try to manhandle it in turbulence. You can break anything if you try hard enough. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 10:57 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Read this: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf _____ From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:49:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders I have a 680. What caused the spars to break? _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! <http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale =e n-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matron ic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Hamilton" <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Survey Commanders
Date: Apr 28, 2008
Folks, To add a little to what Richard has said, and as a result of having been a long standing member of the CASA Standards Consultative Committee. Post WWII, a lot of work was done on fatigue in Australia, as the actual life of an individual airframe varies enormously, depending on the accumulation of fatigue damage, physical damage and corrosion damage. This included a rig test to destruction of 100 sets of new P-51D wing sets (left over after Korea), and this resulted in the "bell" curve used, to this day, for likely fatigue life distribution in aluminium structures. A desire to "lead the world" can be very expensive, if not very carefully managed, and to say that some "over-reacted" is an understatement, at great expense to many of us. However, the professional engineers of the day were not entirely unjustified. Australia's "good weather" produces a lot of heat turbulence, often well beyond design assumptions, as fitting a wide variety of GA, commuter and military aircraft with recording "fatigue meters" has shown. For a while, (and just for my own interest) I had a recording G meter mid-ships under floor in AT-28D, 51-3588. It was instructive to compare the tell-tale needle on the instrument panel G meter, and the recorder. The panel meter always under-recorded peak G, and of course gave no measure of duration. A number of in-flight break-ups of airline aircraft, including 3 Vickers Viscounts, spurred the efforts. To add to the mix, until 1998, Australia had its own design and certification rules, which, in the case of Aero-Commander, resulted in the certification of aircraft at higher gross weights than the factory/FAA, the higher weight certification included a spar strap. When the (now) well known problems of the cold bent spar extrusions surfaced, the AD spar straps were based on the existing Australian certification. One of the reasons then Department of Civil Aviation, DCA, took such a detailed interest, was the fact that they had a fleet of Aero-Commander, various models over the years. Richard's aircraft was delivered new to DCA. The last models their successors used was the Commander 1000 (695A), one has just changed hands in US. The problems of the cold bent extrusions at the wing/body point is well understood, the management by AD has been effective. The problem of dissimilar metal corrosion in spar caps is (now) well understood, but is/was a serious issue. The problems of off spec . material has no answer, it must be replaced. As all our aircraft get older, the results of corrosion becomes increasingly important, if you have never found any, you haven't looked hard enough - with the possible exception of Richard's aircraft, all the DCA/DOA aircraft were ordered with US MilSpec corrosion protection, with all airframe components chromate primed or anodised before assembly, with all drilled fastener holes treated to a brush of primer before "wet" riveting. As FAA produce "ageing aircraft" programs (Cessna SIDs) you will find a remarkable similarity between the inspection hours nominated, and the long standing Australian fatigue life/spar replacement ADs for C402 etc. Indeed, some of the new FAA/Cessna figures are marginally less than the Au AD. As we have pulled apart a few 402 for the SIDs, we have found some scary stuff. There are some very high hour airframes in Australia, when Cessna published the retirement life for the Conquest of 22,000 hours, I doubt they thought it would have had much effect. In Australia, 9 aircraft were grounded. If you have a look at the evolution of FAR 23 structural design standards, you will see the increasing attention to fatigue life, from memory, the Piper Tomahawk was the first aircraft certified after the first FAR 23 amendment to include fatigue justification, hence the wing life. Take the AC structural ADs very seriously, none are unjustified. Having said that, look at the Australian AD Richard put up, the life limits are two or three times the equivalent for most Cessna /Piper, that's telling us something. Neither of the two in-flight breakups of AC-500U or S appears to be fatigue related, being symmetrical downward bending failures just outboard of the engine nacelles. CASA (compared to FAA) is a problem, there have been some good changes in the senior management in the last two years, including several very competent people from the "Eastern Pacific Rim", but it takes a long time to turn the ship of state around. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Before you go Gulp. Understand that CASA makes your FAA look totally professional. This paper was written by an academic and as history has proved we have very strong airplanes. Take note that the wing is essentially a fail safe design. If it was not then a whole lot more airplanes would have crashed. One classic example in the report is the case of ZK-BWA and the pictures. What was not explained was that this aircraft had been badly damaged previously and not repaired correctly. The other problem is that a lot of the corrosion found in Aussie aircraft was due to the fact that they had been used in low level coastal work and really had not been looked after. This paper also ends in about 1995. I believe that in the 1999 the FAA had Twin Commander almost re certify their wings at great expense, destroying numerous airframes. Strangely enough they passed with flying colours. (which must have pissed the FAA off no end). Even our wonderful CASA went on to their 8th amendment of their AD on spar life http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ac/AC-066.pdf . I believe that a lot of accidents and especially in flight break ups have had a lot to do with the airframe being stressed way beyond its limits, usually in foul weather. You just have to do little thinking looking at the size of the things tale and then imagine the loads it has to take especially if you don't go with the flow and try to manhandle it in turbulence. You can break anything if you try hard enough. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 10:57 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Read this: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf _____ From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:49:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders I have a 680. What caused the spars to break? _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! <http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=e n-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Survey Commanders
Date: Apr 28, 2008
Hello All, Regarding ZK-BWA, I have a copy of the official Report into the accident. Richard is, of course, correct in saying that "this aircraft had been badly damaged previously". While being flown in the USA prior to delivery, it was subjected to "an extremely heavy landing which necessitated structural repairs before the aircraft could again be flown". It was also evident that "structural defects had existed in the rear spar caps of the starboard wing prior to the accident". It was evidently the practice of the pilot to fly very low over Mount Ruapehu to give his passengers a good look at a crater lake. There is evidence to suggest that there was strong turbulence in that area on the day of the accident. There is a strong possibility that, due to turbulence, the propeller on the starboard side had struck an isolated projection somewhere on the top of the mountain. Severe engine vibration resulted from the now unbalanced propeller blades and shortly afterwards, it encountered the severe turbulence. The starboard wing, which had already been weakened by three defective spar caps, was subjected to stresses and loadings beyond its capacity to withstand. There were instances known in the aircraft's history of damage to the starboard wing. One was when the starboard prop struck a metal stand while taxying with the engine running at high rpm. The tips of all three blades were damaged and the aircraft was flown in that condition. Takeoff and landing was effected on both engines, but it is not known if the right prop was feathered during the flight, to eliminate engine vibration. The prop damage was within repairable limits. On another occasion, the main gear was "forcibly extended when the aircraft encountered sudden turbulence." Evidently, "under exceptional positive gust loadings in the region of 6g the gear will be forcibly ejected from the retract wells." I am currently looking at Commander accidents where airframe disintegration occurred, but am only a relatively small way into the exercise. However, so far expressions like "exceed design stress limits" seem to appear on a very regular basis. These are coupled with expressions like "spatial disorientation", "severe turbulence" and "airframe icing". So, Commanders do not fall out of the sky for no apparent reason, as of course, we all know. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard & Jacqui Thompson To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:36 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Before you go Gulp. Understand that CASA makes your FAA look totally professional. This paper was written by an academic and as history has proved we have very strong airplanes. Take note that the wing is essentially a fail safe design. If it was not then a whole lot more airplanes would have crashed. One classic example in the report is the case of ZK-BWA and the pictures. What was not explained was that this aircraft had been badly damaged previously and not repaired correctly. The other problem is that a lot of the corrosion found in Aussie aircraft was due to the fact that they had been used in low level coastal work and really had not been looked after. This paper also ends in about 1995. I believe that in the 1999 the FAA had Twin Commander almost re certify their wings at great expense, destroying numerous airframes. Strangely enough they passed with flying colours. (which must have pissed the FAA off no end). Even our wonderful CASA went on to their 8th amendment of their AD on spar life http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ac/AC-066.pdf . I believe that a lot of accidents and especially in flight break ups have had a lot to do with the airframe being stressed way beyond its limits, usually in foul weather. You just have to do little thinking looking at the size of the things tale and then imagine the loads it has to take especially if you don't go with the flow and try to manhandle it in turbulence. You can break anything if you try hard enough. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 10:57 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Read this: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:49:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders To: commander-list(at)matronics.com I have a 680. What caused the spars to break? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listp://foru ms.matronics.comblank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Survey Commanders
Date: Apr 28, 2008
That's true, Richard. And some balance in the perspective. Even the tail of an airliner came off a couple of years ago due to excessive rudder input, didn't it? And the fire-fighting planes also lost a few due to overstressing or fatigue or both. What I couldn't figure out is why the spar is bent forward. The simplicity of having a straight spar should have outweighed the benefits that it might have had (and I am not saying there weren't any, I am just ignorant) being bent. Ted Smith had to know that it would induce torque on the spar. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 11:37 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Before you go Gulp. Understand that CASA makes your FAA look totally professional. This paper was written by an academic and as history has proved we have very strong airplanes. Take note that the wing is essentially a fail safe design. If it was not then a whole lot more airplanes would have crashed. One classic example in the report is the case of ZK-BWA and the pictures. What was not explained was that this aircraft had been badly damaged previously and not repaired correctly. The other problem is that a lot of the corrosion found in Aussie aircraft was due to the fact that they had been used in low level coastal work and really had not been looked after. This paper also ends in about 1995. I believe that in the 1999 the FAA had Twin Commander almost re certify their wings at great expense, destroying numerous airframes. Strangely enough they passed with flying colours. (which must have pissed the FAA off no end). Even our wonderful CASA went on to their 8th amendment of their AD on spar life http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ac/AC-066.pdf . I believe that a lot of accidents and especially in flight break ups have had a lot to do with the airframe being stressed way beyond its limits, usually in foul weather. You just have to do little thinking looking at the size of the things tale and then imagine the loads it has to take especially if you don't go with the flow and try to manhandle it in turbulence. You can break anything if you try hard enough. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 10:57 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Read this: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf _____ From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:49:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders I have a 680. What caused the spars to break? _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> Autos. " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! <http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=e n-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Survey Commanders
Date: Apr 28, 2008
Thanks for that Bill, Have not seen you for a while. My 680E has the primed interior and has very little corrosion. The only place is on the engine trusses and that has been ground out under the watchfull eye of my friendly Car35 guy. He reckons the amount taken out will not make a rats arse difference to the overall strength of the truss. The end is in sight, the old girl should be in the paperwork stages in a couple of months. I am building a new hangar down at Wedderburn to house her. The one I have there is not quite big enough, about a foot shy on span and about 3 foot shy on tail. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hamilton Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 9:03 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Folks, To add a little to what Richard has said, and as a result of having been a long standing member of the CASA Standards Consultative Committee. Post WWII, a lot of work was done on fatigue in Australia, as the actual life of an individual airframe varies enormously, depending on the accumulation of fatigue damage, physical damage and corrosion damage. This included a rig test to destruction of 100 sets of new P-51D wing sets (left over after Korea), and this resulted in the "bell" curve used, to this day, for likely fatigue life distribution in aluminium structures. A desire to "lead the world" can be very expensive, if not very carefully managed, and to say that some "over-reacted" is an understatement, at great expense to many of us. However, the professional engineers of the day were not entirely unjustified. Australia's "good weather" produces a lot of heat turbulence, often well beyond design assumptions, as fitting a wide variety of GA, commuter and military aircraft with recording "fatigue meters" has shown. For a while, (and just for my own interest) I had a recording G meter mid-ships under floor in AT-28D, 51-3588. It was instructive to compare the tell-tale needle on the instrument panel G meter, and the recorder. The panel meter always under-recorded peak G, and of course gave no measure of duration. A number of in-flight break-ups of airline aircraft, including 3 Vickers Viscounts, spurred the efforts. To add to the mix, until 1998, Australia had its own design and certification rules, which, in the case of Aero-Commander, resulted in the certification of aircraft at higher gross weights than the factory/FAA, the higher weight certification included a spar strap. When the (now) well known problems of the cold bent spar extrusions surfaced, the AD spar straps were based on the existing Australian certification. One of the reasons then Department of Civil Aviation, DCA, took such a detailed interest, was the fact that they had a fleet of Aero-Commander, various models over the years. Richard's aircraft was delivered new to DCA. The last models their successors used was the Commander 1000 (695A), one has just changed hands in US. The problems of the cold bent extrusions at the wing/body point is well understood, the management by AD has been effective. The problem of dissimilar metal corrosion in spar caps is (now) well understood, but is/was a serious issue. The problems of off spec . material has no answer, it must be replaced. As all our aircraft get older, the results of corrosion becomes increasingly important, if you have never found any, you haven't looked hard enough - with the possible exception of Richard's aircraft, all the DCA/DOA aircraft were ordered with US MilSpec corrosion protection, with all airframe components chromate primed or anodised before assembly, with all drilled fastener holes treated to a brush of primer before "wet" riveting. As FAA produce "ageing aircraft" programs (Cessna SIDs) you will find a remarkable similarity between the inspection hours nominated, and the long standing Australian fatigue life/spar replacement ADs for C402 etc. Indeed, some of the new FAA/Cessna figures are marginally less than the Au AD. As we have pulled apart a few 402 for the SIDs, we have found some scary stuff. There are some very high hour airframes in Australia, when Cessna published the retirement life for the Conquest of 22,000 hours, I doubt they thought it would have had much effect. In Australia, 9 aircraft were grounded. If you have a look at the evolution of FAR 23 structural design standards, you will see the increasing attention to fatigue life, from memory, the Piper Tomahawk was the first aircraft certified after the first FAR 23 amendment to include fatigue justification, hence the wing life. Take the AC structural ADs very seriously, none are unjustified. Having said that, look at the Australian AD Richard put up, the life limits are two or three times the equivalent for most Cessna /Piper, that's telling us something. Neither of the two in-flight breakups of AC-500U or S appears to be fatigue related, being symmetrical downward bending failures just outboard of the engine nacelles. CASA (compared to FAA) is a problem, there have been some good changes in the senior management in the last two years, including several very competent people from the "Eastern Pacific Rim", but it takes a long time to turn the ship of state around. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Before you go Gulp. Understand that CASA makes your FAA look totally professional. This paper was written by an academic and as history has proved we have very strong airplanes. Take note that the wing is essentially a fail safe design. If it was not then a whole lot more airplanes would have crashed. One classic example in the report is the case of ZK-BWA and the pictures. What was not explained was that this aircraft had been badly damaged previously and not repaired correctly. The other problem is that a lot of the corrosion found in Aussie aircraft was due to the fact that they had been used in low level coastal work and really had not been looked after. This paper also ends in about 1995. I believe that in the 1999 the FAA had Twin Commander almost re certify their wings at great expense, destroying numerous airframes. Strangely enough they passed with flying colours. (which must have pissed the FAA off no end). Even our wonderful CASA went on to their 8th amendment of their AD on spar life http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ac/AC-066.pdf . I believe that a lot of accidents and especially in flight break ups have had a lot to do with the airframe being stressed way beyond its limits, usually in foul weather. You just have to do little thinking looking at the size of the things tale and then imagine the loads it has to take especially if you don't go with the flow and try to manhandle it in turbulence. You can break anything if you try hard enough. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, 28 April 2008 10:57 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike floyd Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Survey Commanders Read this: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/aerocommander.pdf _____ From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:49:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders I have a 680. What caused the spars to break? _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! <http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale =e n-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matron ic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: Craig Kennedy <craigk391(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Survey Commanders
When I had my pre-purchase inspection done on 747H I was told the dye penetrant inspection was no longer valid and that the spar had to be xray's or sonigramed? Further,that the dye itself was found to be causing corrosion. Anybody heard this story. This was all done in October of last year. Craig WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com wrote: Ron, Thank you very much. I had the spars dye penetrated about a year and a half ago prior to buying the airplane and everything checked out o.k. Again thank you very much and if you have any other advice,I would appreciate hearing from you. Gil --------------------------------- Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: FW: Unknown Soldier history lesson
Date: Apr 29, 2008
On Jeopardy the other night, the final question was How many steps does the guard take during his walk across the tomb of the Unknowns - all three missed it This is really an awesome sight to watch if you've never had the chance . Very fascinating. Tomb of the Unknown Soldier cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 1. How many steps does the guard take during his walk across the tomb of the Unknowns and why? 21 steps. It alludes to the twenty-one gun salute, which is the highest honor given any military or foreign dignitary. cid:image002.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 2. How long does he hesitate after his about face to begin his return walk and why? 21 seconds for the same reason as answer number 1 cid:image003.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 3. Why are his gloves wet? His gloves are moistened to prevent his losing his grip on the rifle. cid:image004.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 4. Does he carry his rifle on the same shoulder all the time and if not, why not? He carries the rifle on the shoulder away from the tomb. After his march across the path, he executes an about face and moves the rifle to the outside shoulder. cid:image005.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 5. How often are the guards changed? Guards are changed every thirty minutes, twenty-four hours a day, 365 days a year. cid:image006.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 6. What are the physical traits of the guard limited to? For a person to apply for guard duty at the tomb, he must be between 5' 10" and 6' 2" tall and his waist size cannot exceed 30." Other requirements of the Guard: They must commit 2 years of life to guard the tomb, live in a barracks under the tomb, and cannot drink any alcohol on or off duty for the rest of their lives. They cannot swear in public for the rest of their lives and cannot disgrace the uniform {fighting} or the tomb in any way. After two years, the guard is given a wreath pin that is worn on their lapel signifying they served as guard of the tomb. There are only 400 presently worn. The guard must obey these rules for the rest of their lives or give up the wreath pin. The shoes are specially made with very thick soles to keep the heat and cold from their feet. There are metal heel plates that extend to the top of the shoe in order to make the loud click as they come to a halt. There are no wrinkles, folds or lint on the uniform. Guards dress for duty in front of a full-length mirror. The first six months of duty a guard cannot talk to anyone, nor watch TV. All off duty time is spent studying the 175 notable people laid to rest in Arlington National Cemetery. A guard must memorize who they are and where they are interred. Among the notables are: President Taft, Joe E. Lewis {the boxer} and Medal of Honor winner Audie Murphy, {the most decorated soldier of WWII} of Hollywood fame. Every guard spends five hours a day getting his uniforms ready for guard duty. cid:image007.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 ETERNAL REST GRANT THEM O LORD, AND LET PERPETUAL LIGHT SHINE UPON THEM. In 2003 as Hurricane Isabelle was approaching Washington, DC, our US Senate/House took 2 days off with anticipation of the storm. On the ABC evening news, it was reported that because of the dangers from the hurricane, the military members assigned the duty of guarding the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier were given permission to suspend the assignment. They respectfully declined the offer, "No way, Sir!" Soaked to the skin, marching in the pelting rain of a tropical storm, they said that guarding the Tomb was not just an assignment, it was the highest honor that can be afforded to a serviceperson. The tomb has been patrolled continuously, 24/7, since 1930. cid:image008.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 God Bless and keep them. I don't usually suggest that many emails be forwarded, but I'd be very proud if this one reached as many as possible. We can be very proud of our young men and women in the service no matter where they serve. _____ Cannot help but make one think about values. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve W" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Survey Commanders
Date: Apr 29, 2008
Craig, I was hoping somebody that knew this stuff better than me would give you a good answer. I think though, that you're talking about two different tests. One would be the dye penetrant of the radii of the lower spar cap. We do that one every year, just 'cus, but I believe that one is only required every other year. Then there is the looking for corrosion in the layers (or leaves) of the lower cap. As always, if I'm wrong on that, someone in the group should say so. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Kennedy To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders When I had my pre-purchase inspection done on 747H I was told the dye penetrant inspection was no longer valid and that the spar had to be xray's or sonigramed? Further,that the dye itself was found to be causing corrosion. Anybody heard this story. This was all done in October of last year. Craig WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com wrote: Ron, Thank you very much. I had the spars dye penetrated about a year and a half ago prior to buying the airplane and everything checked out o.k. Again thank you very much and if you have any other advice,I would appreciate hearing from you. Gil http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve W" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Unknown Soldier history lesson
Date: Apr 29, 2008
Nico, As a junior high kid (maybe it was seventh grade?) our class went down to D.C. I was picked out of all the kids to participate in the laying of the wreath. Some stuff you'll always remember, and that's certainly one of them. I was proud and honored, still am, but didn't remember how many steps..... Don't know if they still do that for classes, but D.C. is still an amazing and inspiring place to visit. Everyone should. I do remember one of the guards making fun of my knees knocking..... Steve P.S. HBO has an excellent series running called John Adams, based on Historian David McCullough's work. Have you caught any of it? Excellent and accessible stuff on the revolution and the founding of the Union. ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: 'art la combe' Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: Commander-List: FW: Unknown Soldier history lesson On Jeopardy the other night, the final question was How many steps does the guard take during his walk across the tomb of the Unknowns - all three missed it This is really an awesome sight to watch if you've never had the chance . Very fascinating. Tomb of the Unknown Soldier 1. How many steps does the guard take during his walk across the tomb of the Unknowns and why? 21 steps. It alludes to the twenty-one gun salute, which is the highest honor given any military or foreign dignitary. 2. How long does he hesitate after his about face to begin his return walk and why? 21 seconds for the same reason as answer number 1 3. Why are his gloves wet? His gloves are moistened to prevent his losing his grip on the rifle. 4. Does he carry his rifle on the same shoulder all the time and if not, why not? He carries the rifle on the shoulder away from the tomb. After his march across the path, he executes an about face and moves the rifle to the outside shoulder. 5. How often are the guards changed? Guards are changed every thirty minutes, twenty-four hours a day, 365 days a year. 6. What are the physical traits of the guard limited to? For a person to apply for guard duty at the tomb, he must be between 5' 10" and 6' 2" tall and his waist size cannot exceed 30." Other requirements of the Guard: They must commit 2 years of life to guard the tomb, live in a barracks under the tomb, and cannot drink any alcohol on or off duty for the rest of their lives. They cannot swear in public for the rest of their lives and cannot disgrace the uniform {fighting} or the tomb in any way. After two years, the guard is given a wreath pin that is worn on their lapel signifying they served as guard of the tomb. There are only 400 presently worn. The guard must obey these rules for the rest of their lives or give up the wreath pin. The shoes are specially made with very thick soles to keep the heat and cold from their feet. There are metal heel plates that extend to the top of the shoe in order to make the loud click as they come to a halt. There are no wrinkles, folds or lint on the uniform. Guards dress for duty in front of a full-length mirror. The first six months of duty a guard cannot talk to anyone, nor watch TV. All off duty time is spent studying the 175 notable people laid to rest in Arlington National Cemetery. A guard must memorize who they are and where they are interred. Among the notables are: President Taft, Joe E. Lewis {the boxer} and Medal of Honor winner Audie Murphy, {the most decorated soldier of WWII} of Hollywood fame. Every guard spends five hours a day getting his uniforms ready for guard duty. ETERNAL REST GRANT THEM O LORD, AND LET PERPETUAL LIGHT SHINE UPON THEM. In 2003 as Hurricane Isabelle was approaching Washington, DC, our US Senate/House took 2 days off with anticipation of the storm. On the ABC evening news, it was reported that because of the dangers from the hurricane, the military members assigned the duty of guarding the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier were given permission to suspend the assignment. They respectfully declined the offer, "No way, Sir!" Soaked to the skin, marching in the pelting rain of a tropical storm, they said that guarding the Tomb was not just an assignment, it was the highest honor that can be afforded to a serviceperson. The tomb has been patrolled continuously, 24/7, since 1930. God Bless and keep them. I don't usually suggest that many emails be forwarded, but I'd be very proud if this one reached as many as possible. We can be very proud of our young men and women in the service no matter where they serve. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Cannot help but make one think about values. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: FW: Unknown Soldier history lesson
Date: Apr 29, 2008
I plan to do just that, Steve. Thanks _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve W Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: Unknown Soldier history lesson Nico, As a junior high kid (maybe it was seventh grade?) our class went down to D.C. I was picked out of all the kids to participate in the laying of the wreath. Some stuff you'll always remember, and that's certainly one of them. I was proud and honored, still am, but didn't remember how many steps..... Don't know if they still do that for classes, but D.C. is still an amazing and inspiring place to visit. Everyone should. I do remember one of the guards making fun of my knees knocking..... Steve P.S. HBO has an excellent series running called John Adams, based on Historian David McCullough's work. Have you caught any of it? Excellent and accessible stuff on the revolution and the founding of the Union. ----- Original Message ----- From: nico <mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> css Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: Commander-List: FW: Unknown Soldier history lesson On Jeopardy the other night, the final question was How many steps does the guard take during his walk across the tomb of the Unknowns - all three missed it This is really an awesome sight to watch if you've never had the chance . Very fascinating. Tomb of the Unknown Soldier cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 1. How many steps does the guard take during his walk across the tomb of the Unknowns and why? 21 steps. It alludes to the twenty-one gun salute, which is the highest honor given any military or foreign dignitary. cid:image002.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 2. How long does he hesitate after his about face to begin his return walk and why? 21 seconds for the same reason as answer number 1 cid:image003.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 3. Why are his gloves wet? His gloves are moistened to prevent his losing his grip on the rifle. cid:image004.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 4. Does he carry his rifle on the same shoulder all the time and if not, why not? He carries the rifle on the shoulder away from the tomb. After his march across the path, he executes an about face and moves the rifle to the outside shoulder. cid:image005.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 5. How often are the guards changed? Guards are changed every thirty minutes, twenty-four hours a day, 365 days a year. cid:image006.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 6. What are the physical traits of the guard limited to? For a person to apply for guard duty at the tomb, he must be between 5' 10" and 6' 2" tall and his waist size cannot exceed 30." Other requirements of the Guard: They must commit 2 years of life to guard the tomb, live in a barracks under the tomb, and cannot drink any alcohol on or off duty for the rest of their lives. They cannot swear in public for the rest of their lives and cannot disgrace the uniform {fighting} or the tomb in any way. After two years, the guard is given a wreath pin that is worn on their lapel signifying they served as guard of the tomb. There are only 400 presently worn. The guard must obey these rules for the rest of their lives or give up the wreath pin. The shoes are specially made with very thick soles to keep the heat and cold from their feet. There are metal heel plates that extend to the top of the shoe in order to make the loud click as they come to a halt. There are no wrinkles, folds or lint on the uniform. Guards dress for duty in front of a full-length mirror. The first six months of duty a guard cannot talk to anyone, nor watch TV. All off duty time is spent studying the 175 notable people laid to rest in Arlington National Cemetery. A guard must memorize who they are and where they are interred. Among the notables are: President Taft, Joe E. Lewis {the boxer} and Medal of Honor winner Audie Murphy, {the most decorated soldier of WWII} of Hollywood fame. Every guard spends five hours a day getting his uniforms ready for guard duty. cid:image007.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 ETERNAL REST GRANT THEM O LORD, AND LET PERPETUAL LIGHT SHINE UPON THEM. In 2003 as Hurricane Isabelle was approaching Washington, DC, our US Senate/House took 2 days off with anticipation of the storm. On the ABC evening news, it was reported that because of the dangers from the hurricane, the military members assigned the duty of guarding the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier were given permission to suspend the assignment. They respectfully declined the offer, "No way, Sir!" Soaked to the skin, marching in the pelting rain of a tropical storm, they said that guarding the Tomb was not just an assignment, it was the highest honor that can be afforded to a serviceperson. The tomb has been patrolled continuously, 24/7, since 1930. cid:image008.jpg(at)01C8A9D4.498912A0 God Bless and keep them. I don't usually suggest that many emails be forwarded, but I'd be very proud if this one reached as many as possible. We can be very proud of our young men and women in the service no matter where they serve. _____ Cannot help but make one think about values. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 30, 2008
From: Craig Kennedy <craigk391(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Survey Commanders
OK, thanks! Anyone with further clarity would be appreciated. Steve W wrote: Craig, I was hoping somebody that knew this stuff better than me would give you a good answer. I think though, that you're talking about two different tests. One would be the dye penetrant of the radii of the lower spar cap. We do that one every year, just 'cus, but I believe that one is only required every other year. Then there is the looking for corrosion in the layers (or leaves) of the lower cap. As always, if I'm wrong on that, someone in the group should say so. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Kennedy To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Survey Commanders When I had my pre-purchase inspection done on 747H I was told the dye penetrant inspection was no longer valid and that the spar had to be xray's or sonigramed? Further,that the dye itself was found to be causing corrosion. Anybody heard this story. This was all done in October of last year. Craig WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com wrote: Ron, Thank you very much. I had the spars dye penetrated about a year and a half ago prior to buying the airplane and everything checked out o.k. Again thank you very much and if you have any other advice,I would appreciate hearing from you. Gil http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stan" <swperk(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
HI Barry, For the 681, it's +3.34/-1.34 G. Regards, Stan From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:14 AM Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Hi Stan, My word - somebody's up early on a Saturday morning! That's really great of you to answer so quickly and I'm most grateful. Have a great weekend! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Stan To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:49 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors HI Barry, For the 681, it's +3.34/-1.34 G. Regards, Stan From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:14 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Sir Barry, 680Fp Positive limit load factor is 3.43G's with no negative given. Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:14 AM Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Hi Moe, Another "West Coaster" up & about early on a Saturday morning! Grateful thanks Moe. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Sir Barry, 680Fp Positive limit load factor is 3.43G's with no negative given. Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:14 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 6:51 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, Another "West Coaster" up & about early on a Saturday morning! Grateful thanks Moe. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Sir Barry, 680Fp Positive limit load factor is 3.43G's with no negative given. Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:14 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
From: "KORY" <ONTOPFLYER(at)aol.com>
Date: May 03, 2008
FOR THE 685 FLAPS UP POSITIVE 3.36 NEGATIVE 1.35 FLAPS DOWN POSITIVE 2.00 NEGATIVE 0.00 KORY Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180894#180894 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Hi Moe, No wonder I can't afford a Commander - I don't surface until 10am ;-) I haven't got an answer why the rear door window on your 680F(P) is different to the others. I know somebody who might know, so will get back to you on that one. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 6:51 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, Another "West Coaster" up & about early on a Saturday morning! Grateful thanks Moe. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Sir Barry, 680Fp Positive limit load factor is 3.43G's with no negative given. Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:14 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Hi Kory, Grateful thanks! Which 685 is your one? Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "KORY" <ONTOPFLYER(at)aol.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:48 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors | | FOR THE 685 | | FLAPS UP POSITIVE 3.36 NEGATIVE 1.35 | FLAPS DOWN POSITIVE 2.00 NEGATIVE 0.00 | | KORY ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com>
Barry: I've got a flight manual, without a signature page, entitled MR. RPM Aero Commander 680FL(P), FAA Approved 5 Jun, 1974. FLIGHT LOAD FACTOR The positive limit load factor is 3.40 G's. NOTE A minimum of 400 feet of altitude is required to recover from power off stalls with 8500 pounds at both forward and aft center of gravity. Brock -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry Collman Sent: Sat 5/3/2008 5:14 AM Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Hi Brock, Grateful thanks. I have the figure 3.40 G's for the 'standard' 680FLP as well. Your help is much appreciated. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Barry: I've got a flight manual, without a signature page, entitled MR. RPM Aero Commander 680FL(P), FAA Approved 5 Jun, 1974. FLIGHT LOAD FACTOR The positive limit load factor is 3.40 G's. NOTE A minimum of 400 feet of altitude is required to recover from power off stalls with 8500 pounds at both forward and aft center of gravity. Brock ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Hi Moe, My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question regarding the glass in your rear door window. Here's what he has to say: "Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being found on a Model 689F(P). As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows being energized by outside vibrations. This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air pressure. The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure. This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height. [Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and Z -28.0.] After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have been very few and far between. If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the existing 500S tooling. Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pane to contend with. This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be transferred to the replacement glass. [It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]" Hopefully, that will be the reason. It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 04, 2008
Hi Barry, My 680E manual states a positive limit load factor is 3.5 Gs. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 10:14 PM Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 03, 2008
Barry; I'm with you, I thought it was the eleventh commandment, "Don't get up before the sun", besides, don't know what I would do with half the money in the world. Too many problems! Also notice that Moe waited until retired, to tell us how to make all that money. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, No wonder I can't afford a Commander - I don't surface until 10am ;-) I haven't got an answer why the rear door window on your 680F(P) is different to the others. I know somebody who might know, so will get back to you on that one. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 6:51 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, Another "West Coaster" up & about early on a Saturday morning! Grateful thanks Moe. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Sir Barry, 680Fp Positive limit load factor is 3.43G's with no negative given. Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 5:14 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 4/18/2008 5:24 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 04, 2008
Hi Richard, Grateful thanks! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard & Jacqui Thompson To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:32 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, My 680E manual states a positive limit load factor is 3.5 Gs. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 10:14 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Guys, I need some help. I haven't got a copy of numerous Flight Manuals for the Commander Models and will really appreciate your help. I understand that somewhere within these Manuals are the "Flight Load Factors" for the Model. Could I ask that you take the proverbial "5 minutes" to look in your Manual and let me know the 'Positive G' and 'Negative G' figures, together with the Model concerned. Your help will, of course, be very much appreciated. Very Best Regards, Barry http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 04, 2008
Wouldn't turbulence easily exceed the load when the flaps are down? +2 isn't much and no negative? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KORY Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 7:49 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors FOR THE 685 FLAPS UP POSITIVE 3.36 NEGATIVE 1.35 FLAPS DOWN POSITIVE 2.00 NEGATIVE 0.00 KORY Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180894#180894 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: May 04, 2008
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Good Evening Nico, Chances are that the airplane is actually much stronger than that, but 2 Gs is all that they have to prove to the FEDs. Same thing is true with the other listed load factors. It has been a long time so somebody please correct me where I am wrong, but I THINK the required structural strength on the tail is only 1.5 Gs! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/4/2008 6:53:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: Wouldn't turbulence easily exceed the load when the flaps are down? +2 isn't much and no negative? **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Hamilton" <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
Folks, The original certification of my 500A was in utility cat., limited aerobatics --- and we all know what Bob Hoover can do ---- but after the spare problems (necessitating the spar straps AD) it was revised to Normal cat. The design load factors were/are in Car 3/FAR 23. The 1.5 mentioned is FAR 25. All too many pilots forget the effect of "rolling G", which greatly reduces the available load factor, by up to 30%, very significant for turbulence and turbulence penetration speeds. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors Good Evening Nico, Chances are that the airplane is actually much stronger than that, but 2 Gs is all that they have to prove to the FEDs. Same thing is true with the other listed load factors. It has been a long time so somebody please correct me where I am wrong, but I THINK the required structural strength on the tail is only 1.5 Gs! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/4/2008 6:53:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: Wouldn't turbulence easily exceed the load when the flaps are down? +2 isn't much and no negative? _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
Rolling G? Is that a kind of torque motion on the fuselage? Never heard of it (which shouldn't be surprising). Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hamilton Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 2:18 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors Folks, The original certification of my 500A was in utility cat., limited aerobatics --- and we all know what Bob Hoover can do ---- but after the spare problems (necessitating the spar straps AD) it was revised to Normal cat. The design load factors were/are in Car 3/FAR 23. The 1.5 mentioned is FAR 25. All too many pilots forget the effect of "rolling G", which greatly reduces the available load factor, by up to 30%, very significant for turbulence and turbulence penetration speeds. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors Good Evening Nico, Chances are that the airplane is actually much stronger than that, but 2 Gs is all that they have to prove to the FEDs. Same thing is true with the other listed load factors. It has been a long time so somebody please correct me where I am wrong, but I THINK the required structural strength on the tail is only 1.5 Gs! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/4/2008 6:53:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: Wouldn't turbulence easily exceed the load when the flaps are down? +2 isn't much and no negative? _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> Food. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: May 06, 2008
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Good Morning Nico, That refers to the additional load applied to a wing when an aileron is input. One wing gets a bigger load and the other wing gets less. That is why it rolls. If the airplane is rolled while pulling any appreciable G load, the additional load that is impressed by the application of aileron can easily exceed the design limit which is only calculated for the straight ahead no roll condition. I hear the big boys say: Yank then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload then yank! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:16:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: Rolling G? Is that a kind of torque motion on the fuselage? Never heard of it (which shouldn't be surprising). Nico **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
Thanks, Bob. I was aware of the phenomenon but now it has a name. In light GA flying the bubble hanging off the wings (or sitting on top of it) is usually too light to make much difference. :-) Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 5:45 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors Good Morning Nico, That refers to the additional load applied to a wing when an aileron is input. One wing gets a bigger load and the other wing gets less. That is why it rolls. If the airplane is rolled while pulling any appreciable G load, the additional load that is impressed by the application of aileron can easily exceed the design limit which is only calculated for the straight ahead no roll condition. I hear the big boys say: Yank then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload then yank! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:16:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: Rolling G? Is that a kind of torque motion on the fuselage? Never heard of it (which shouldn't be surprising). Nico _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: May 06, 2008
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Darn, failure to proofread correctly!! Should be: Yank, then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload, then bank! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:48:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: Good Morning Nico, That refers to the additional load applied to a wing when an aileron is input. One wing gets a bigger load and the other wing gets less. That is why it rolls. If the airplane is rolled while pulling any appreciable G load, the additional load that is impressed by the application of aileron can easily exceed the design limit which is only calculated for the straight ahead no roll condition. I hear the big boys say: Yank then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload then yank! Happy Skies, Old Bob **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: May 06, 2008
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Good Morning Nico, It is true that we GA types rarely have a need for pulling many Gs, but our airplanes are not required to be built to sustain much of a load so we could get very close to a limit if we make heavy aileron inputs in turbulence. It is good practice to avoid using any appreciable roll input while the airplane is being tossed about by Mother Nature. As Always, It All Depends! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/6/2008 8:06:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: Thanks, Bob. I was aware of the phenomenon but now it has a name. In light GA flying the bubble hanging off the wings (or sitting on top of it) is usually too light to make much difference. :-) Nico **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
Hi Barry, Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had double side windows. Regards, Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question regarding the glass in your rear door window. Here's what he has to say: "Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being found on a Model 689F(P). As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows being energized by outside vibrations. This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air pressure. The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure. This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height. [Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and Z -28.0.] After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have been very few and far between. If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the existing 500S tooling. Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pane to contend with. This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be transferred to the replacement glass. [It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]" Hopefully, that will be the reason. It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
Hi Moe, I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did indeed have double windows. I seem to recall this item being on the Work Release Order paperwork that is in the Warranty Files for quite a number of examples. I cannot check that though, as it's something I don't track in my database. Presumably, it was to help reduce the noise levels. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had double side windows. Regards, Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question regarding the glass in your rear door window. Here's what he has to say: "Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being found on a Model 689F(P). As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows being energized by outside vibrations. This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air pressure. The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure. This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height. [Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and Z -28.0.] After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have been very few and far between. If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the existing 500S tooling. Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pane to contend with. This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be transferred to the replacement glass. [It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]" Hopefully, that will be the reason. It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Hamilton" <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 07, 2008
Nico, Spot on re. the effect of turbulence, see my other post. For FAR 25 transports, the normal design negative G for any degree of flap extension is 0, nought, nil. A serious consideration for a 747-400 at 397,000 or 415,000 (ER) taking off in windy weather or otherwise generated turbulence, I have registered -0.7 on the QAR on takeoff, off the coast at KLAX, we did a serious exceedence look (took about 60 man hours) back at base. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors Wouldn't turbulence easily exceed the load when the flaps are down? +2 isn't much and no negative? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KORY Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 7:49 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors FOR THE 685 FLAPS UP POSITIVE 3.36 NEGATIVE 1.35 FLAPS DOWN POSITIVE 2.00 NEGATIVE 0.00 KORY Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180894#180894 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
My 1965 680FLP had contoured double windows. Tom. C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 7:29 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did indeed have double windows. I seem to recall this item being on the Work Release Order paperwork that is in the Warranty Files for quite a number of examples. I cannot check that though, as it's something I don't track in my database. Presumably, it was to help reduce the noise levels. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had double side windows. Regards, Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question regarding the glass in your rear door window. Here's what he has to say: "Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being found on a Model 689F(P). As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows being energized by outside vibrations. This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air pressure. The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure. This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height. [Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and Z -28.0.] After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have been very few and far between. If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the existing 500S tooling. Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pane to contend with. This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be transferred to the replacement glass. [It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]" Hopefully, that will be the reason. It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
Bob, Isn't this what was found to be responsible for a lot of the troubles T-34's experienced with catastrophic airframe failures when flying with the pretend fighter pilot schools? Not necessarily pulling too many G's, but maneuvering while pulling some. I seem to remember some well written stuff written about this effect a couple years ago. Deakin maybe? Maybe I'm making this one up, but I thought one of our fighters was having some of the same problem, leading to fatigue in the structure. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Flight Load Factors Darn, failure to proofread correctly!! Should be: Yank, then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload, then bank! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:48:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: Good Morning Nico, That refers to the additional load applied to a wing when an aileron is input. One wing gets a bigger load and the other wing gets less. That is why it rolls. If the airplane is rolled while pulling any appreciable G load, the additional load that is impressed by the application of aileron can easily exceed the design limit which is only calculated for the straight ahead no roll condition. I hear the big boys say: Yank then bank. - Don't yank and bank. Or: Unload then yank! Happy Skies, Old Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: May 06, 2008
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Good Afternoon Steve, Your memory is just the same as mine. When I was briefed before flying the T-38 at Edwards, they told us the same thing. Before you rack it over, unload the wing. You could yank and you could bank, but not both at the same time! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/6/2008 1:35:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time, steve2(at)sover.net writes: Bob, Isn't this what was found to be responsible for a lot of the troubles T-34's experienced with catastrophic airframe failures when flying with the pretend fighter pilot schools? Not necessarily pulling too many G's, but maneuvering while pulling some. I seem to remember some well written stuff written about this effect a couple years ago. Deakin maybe? Maybe I'm making this one up, but I thought one of our fighters was having some of the same problem, leading to fatigue in the structure. Steve **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
Hi Barry, Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had double side windows. Regards, Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question regarding the glass in your rear door window. Here's what he has to say: "Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being found on a Model 689F(P). As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows being energized by outside vibrations. This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air pressure. The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure. This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height. [Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and Z -28.0.] After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have been very few and far between. If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the existing 500S tooling. Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pane to contend with. This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be transferred to the replacement glass. [It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]" Hopefully, that will be the reason. It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 06, 2008
I have double pane windows in my straight 500. Roland Gilliam From: barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.ukTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubjec t: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load FactorsDate: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:29:26 +0 100 Hi Moe, I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did indeed have double windows. I seem to recall this item being on the Work Release Order paperwork that i s in the Warranty Files for quite a number of examples. I cannot check that though, as it's something I don't track in my database. Presumably, it was to help reduce the noise levels. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a menti on about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written the year be fore my plane was even built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had double side windows. Regards, Moe From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question rega rding the glass in your rear door window. Here's what he has to say: "Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being f ound on a Model 689F(P). As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the c abin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows be ing energized by outside vibrations. This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bring ing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air pressure. The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure. This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measur e about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height. [Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match t he side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and Z -28.0.] After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have b een very few and far between. If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the exis ting 500S tooling. Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pan e to contend with. This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be transfer red to the replacement glass. [It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be fo rmed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]" Hopefully, that will be the reason. It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the s ame glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the m oney on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied t hat I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewh ere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start a t 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while al l other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyo ne here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh _mobile_052008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
From: craigk391(at)sbcglobal.net
Date: May 07, 2008
I had them in my 560A as well 2764B Craig Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:21:48 To: Subject: RE: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors I have double pane windows in my straight 500. Roland Gilliam ---------------- From: barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk Date: Tue, 6 May 2008= 16:29:26 +0100 Hi Moe, I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did= indeed have double windows. I seem to recall this item being on the = Work Release Order paperwork that is in the Warranty Files for quite a numb= er of examples. I cannot check that though, as it's some= thing I don't track in my database. Presumably, it was to help reduce the no= ise levels. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- = From: Moe-rosspistons <mailto:moe-rosspis tons(at)hotmail.com> cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight = Load Factors Hi Barry, Thank you very much for this. = The manual goes into great detail about how to make new side windows and in= stall them, however, there is nary a mention about the window contour= . As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45 years of experience= , whereas the manual was actually written the year before my plane was even= built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had double side windows. Regards, Moe From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry .collman@air-britain.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM r-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has= just replied to your question regarding the glass in your rear door window= . Here's what he has to say: "Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window bei= ng found on a Model 689F(P). As part of a laterinterior&n= bsp;noise reduction effort weslightly bulged the cabin windows to red= uce the 'drum head' effectresulting fromthe windowsbeing&= nbsp;energizedby outside vibrations. This was done byplacing the = plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bringing it toforming temper= ature andinflating it slightly with air pressure. The formed pane was then cooled&nb= sp;while still under pressure. This resulting outward bulge in th= e center of the windowpaneswould measure about 1/2to 3/4 of an inch in height. [Of course the edges of the pane w= ere restrained in a flatplane to match the side of the fuselage which= was flat between Z -10.0 and Z -28.0.] After the 680FPwas out of producti= on for aprescribed period of time it is doubtful thatthe Spares= Department would havehad the factory retainthe 680FP prod= uction window tooling since any future spares orders would have been very f= ew and far between. If a spares order was received for a 680= FP cabin door window it is possible that the order was filled by fabricatin= g and forming the glass on the existing 500S tooling. Since the 500S was unpressurized, the wi= ndows were held in place with clips and there would have beenno perip= heralscrew hole pattern through the pane to contend with. This would allow the existing hole patte= rn in the 680FP door to be transferred to the replacement glass. [It is likely that the 680FP windows wou= ld have been formed from a stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material= while the 500S windows would be formed fromthe standard"as cas= t" acrylic sheet.]" Hopefully, that will be the reason. It will be interesting to learn whether any other= 680F(P) owners have the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any= other cabin windows. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message= ----- = From: Moe-rosspistons <mailto:moe-rosspis tons(at)hotmail.com> cs.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM= Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight = Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I i= dolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 = and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, = so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the centu= ry the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to= squeeze a meager profit you had to start at5 AM. Now retired, = getting up at 5 really makes sense,so I can "let the good times roll"= earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow = members: 1. Why does the rear door window on = my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly fl= at? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh i= n their Commander? 3. Now thata full bag of= 100LL for aCommander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwe= st going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers a= re, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma= tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/= c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma= tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/= c " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ---------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2008
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Flight Load Factors
My 500A I think has double pane and they are all bulged. I thought it was just to give more head room. Jim Addington N444BD _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Gilliam Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors I have double pane windows in my straight 500. Roland Gilliam _____ From: barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:29:26 +0100 Hi Moe, I'm fairly sure that some Commanders did indeed have double windows. I seem to recall this item being on the Work Release Order paperwork that is in the Warranty Files for quite a number of examples. I cannot check that though, as it's something I don't track in my database. Presumably, it was to help reduce the noise levels. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons <mailto:moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Thank you very much for this. The manual goes into great detail about how to make new side windows and install them, however, there is nary a mention about the window contour. As usual Morris had the best advice based on 45 years of experience, whereas the manual was actually written the year before my plane was even built. According to the manual some 680Fp models had double side windows. Regards, Moe From: Barry <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Collman Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Moe, My Aero Commander Engineering 'guru' has just replied to your question regarding the glass in your rear door window. Here's what he has to say: "Here is the only thing I can think of regarding a contoured window being found on a Model 689F(P). As part of a later interior noise reduction effort we slightly bulged the cabin windows to reduce the 'drum head' effect resulting from the windows being energized by outside vibrations. This was done by placing the plexiglass blank into a forming fixture, bringing it to forming temperature and inflating it slightly with air pressure. The formed pane was then cooled while still under pressure. This resulting outward bulge in the center of the window panes would measure about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in height. [Of course the edges of the pane were restrained in a flat plane to match the side of the fuselage which was flat between Z -10.0 and Z -28.0.] After the 680FP was out of production for a prescribed period of time it is doubtful that the Spares Department would have had the factory retain the 680FP production window tooling since any future spares orders would have been very few and far between. If a spares order was received for a 680FP cabin door window it is possible that the order was filled by fabricating and forming the glass on the existing 500S tooling. Since the 500S was unpressurized, the windows were held in place with clips and there would have been no peripheral screw hole pattern through the pane to contend with. This would allow the existing hole pattern in the 680FP door to be transferred to the replacement glass. [It is likely that the 680FP windows would have been formed from a stronger "stretched" type acrylic sheet material while the 500S windows would be formed from the standard "as cast" acrylic sheet.]" Hopefully, that will be the reason. It will be interesting to learn whether any other 680F(P) owners have the same glass in their door window, or indeed, in any other cabin windows. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons <mailto:moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors Hi Barry, Back in the 1970's a wise old man whom I idolized told me that all of the money on the west coast was made between 6 and 10 AM. Jokingly, I replied that I only wanted half of the money, so I would see him about 8 AM. Somewhere around the turn of the century the business climate got so bad that 6AM was the break even time, and to squeeze a meager profit you had to start at 5 AM. Now retired, getting up at 5 really makes sense, so I can "let the good times roll" earlier than most. Three questions for you and/or our fellow members: 1. Why does the rear door window on my plane have a convex shape, while all other side windows are perfectly flat? 2. Is anyone else going to Oshkosh in their Commander? 3. Now that a full bag of 100LL for a Commander is over $ 1,000.00 is anyone here in the southwest going over to Mexico to purchase gas. Some of the local Gypsy Truckers are, to purchase Diesel, and are saving about $500.00 per fill up. Best regards Moe N680RR 680Fp href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. Connect on the go. <http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_m obile_052008> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 07, 2008
G'day Barry, I nearly purchased one... The original (amended 27 January 1960) 560E Manual states: Flight Load Factor The positive limit load factor is 3.8 G's. NOTE: A minimum of 300 feet of altitude is required to recover from power off stalls with 6500 lbs. at both forward and aft center of gravity. Cheers from Oz Russell PS (Not retired yet... just struggling to find the time to get my first Commander deal 'crunched'! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
Date: May 07, 2008
Hi Russell, Good on yer mate! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Flight Load Factors | | G'day Barry, | | | I nearly purchased one... | | The original (amended 27 January 1960) 560E Manual states: | | | Flight Load Factor | | The positive limit load factor is 3.8 G's. | | NOTE: A minimum of 300 feet of altitude is required to recover from power | off stalls with 6500 lbs. at both forward and aft center of gravity. | | | Cheers from Oz | | Russell | | PS (Not retired yet... just struggling to find the time to get my first | Commander deal 'crunched'! | | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Octavio viveros sandoval <tatoviveros(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: My Commander for sale.
Date: May 07, 2008
Hello Guys, I took a decision and my Commander is up for sale. You can take a look at i t at Barnstormers and at Trade-a-plane. I also posted an advertisement at C otntroller but for some reason It hasn't showed up yet. I would really like that somebody who understands the meaning of owning an Aero Commander keep s it and not somebody who is only willing to purchase an airplane. So if an y of you guys or somebody you know is interested I will be very open-minded for a negotitation. I know a guy I usually hire to legally represent mysel f at Mexican DGAC and do all the paperwork and he can help us with the mexi can part of the re-importation process. Barry, I promised some pictures, don't think I forgot, but the airplane is located three hours driving at Morelia, the city I was born and my parents live; I live in Mexico city. I been flying a lot and I haven't visited them ,(another reason I'm selling) but I will next week so you will have the pic tures. Octavio XB-KSK AC500U sn 1668-17 _________________________________________________________________ P.D. Checa las nuevas fotos de mi Space http://home.services.spaces.live.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Mansfield" <hcourier(at)cox.net>
Subject: Need part for Commander 680 FLP
Date: May 08, 2008
Clear DayHello, Am in need of a "rib", part number 260020-191 for an Aero Commander 680 FLP. The part is actually more like a bracket than what I think of as a rib. It's attached to the left engine nacel on the inboard side. Integral to it is a metal tube about 2" diameter to which the ducting for pressurized air to the cabin is connected. This particular part can be seen better with the flaps down. If anyone knows where I can get such a piece please email or call me at 850-217-5185. This part on the plane I fly has a good amount of corrosion. The maintenance guys haven't removed it yet, but when they do they may try to add a reinforcing piece to it. However, if anyone has one to sell, let me know. Thanks, Ray Mansfield ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 2008
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 500B
Hey guy's, due to financial issues my 500B is for sale.=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A ____________________________________________ ________________________________________=0ABe a better friend, newshound, a nd =0Aknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com /;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 2008
From: "lloyd SILVERMAN" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 500B
DONNIE, WHERE ARE THE DETAILS LISTED & HOW MUCH??? CAN ANYONE TELL ME HOW TO REMOVE CYLINDER #6 FROM MY 500B ? IT LOOKS LIKE I MAY HAVE TO PULL THE ENGINE. HELP !!!! LLOYD SILVERMAN On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Donnie Rose wrote: > Hey guy's, due to financial issues my 500B is for sale. > > Donnie Rose > 205/492-8444 > > ________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > -- LLOYD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 2008
From: "lloyd SILVERMAN" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com>
Subject: CYLINDER #6 500B
HELP ! HOW DO I PULL CYLINDER #6 ON MY COMMANDER. OUCH LOOKS AWFULL. THANKS,LLOYD SILVERMAN -- LLOYD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 500B
Date: May 11, 2008
Lloyd, If it is like my 680Fp with the IGSO540 engine you can axcess it by pulling the middle cylinder first and then pulling it. A close, tight fit, but much easier than pulling the engine. Moe N680RR 680Fp -------------------------------------------------- From: "lloyd SILVERMAN" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B > > > DONNIE, WHERE ARE THE DETAILS LISTED & HOW MUCH??? CAN ANYONE TELL ME > HOW TO REMOVE CYLINDER #6 FROM MY 500B ? IT LOOKS LIKE I MAY HAVE TO > PULL THE ENGINE. HELP !!!! LLOYD SILVERMAN > > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Donnie Rose > wrote: >> Hey guy's, due to financial issues my 500B is for sale. >> >> Donnie Rose >> 205/492-8444 >> >> ________________________________ >> Be a better friend, newshound, and >> >> > > > -- > LLOYD > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2008
From: "lloyd SILVERMAN" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 500B
MOE, SOUNDS REASONABLE,ILL TRY IT. THANKS,LLOYD On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Moe-rosspistons wrote: > > > Lloyd, > > If it is like my 680Fp with the IGSO540 engine you can axcess it by pulling > the middle cylinder first and then pulling it. A close, tight fit, but much > easier than pulling the engine. > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "lloyd SILVERMAN" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 5:22 PM > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B > > > > > > > > DONNIE, WHERE ARE THE DETAILS LISTED & HOW MUCH??? CAN ANYONE TELL ME > > HOW TO REMOVE CYLINDER #6 FROM MY 500B ? IT LOOKS LIKE I MAY HAVE TO > > PULL THE ENGINE. HELP !!!! LLOYD SILVERMAN > > > > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Donnie Rose > wrote: > > > > > Hey guy's, due to financial issues my 500B is for sale. > > > > > > Donnie Rose > > > 205/492-8444 > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > LLOYD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- LLOYD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Items on ebay
Date: May 12, 2008
Hi Guys, There's a couple of items on ebay that may possibly be of interest to somebody: Aero Commander Hydraulic Accumulator Bladder, Part No. 402969. Aero Commander Hydraulic Pump (Aero Commander Pesco Hydraulic System Pump, Mfr Part No. 1P349P). Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flight Load Factors
From: "Cate Chagnot" <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Date: May 13, 2008
My 680E operator's manual only says; "Positive limit load factor +3.5 G" Wouldn't it have been certified in the 'Normal' category which should be +3.8 and -1.52? Why the difference? Cate 680E N4278S -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182977#182977 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 16, 2008
From: "lloyd SILVERMAN" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 500B Rt engine #6 cyl.
H ey guys & gals, My #6 cyl on rt side (thats the one thats half buried behind support frame) has to come out. Is there any way to remove it short of pulling the engine. All help is greatly appreciated. thanks, lloyd silverman 914- 720- 0039 -- LLOYD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 16, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: 500B Rt engine #6 cyl.
Is this deja vu all over again - thought that question popped up a few days ago - my mechanic had to take the engine mounts loose and supporting the engine swing it forward to do it. I reconfimed that with him two days ago when I was out watching him do the annual on the 500B - it is a bear (or something else beginning with a b...) to fix. bobf On 5/16/08, lloyd SILVERMAN wrote: > > lloydsss(at)gmail.com> > > H ey guys & gals, My #6 cyl on rt side (thats the one thats half > buried behind support frame) has to come out. Is there any way to > remove it short of pulling the engine. All help is greatly > appreciated. thanks, lloyd silverman 914- 720- 0039 > > -- > LLOYD > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: 500B Rt engine #6 cyl.
Date: May 16, 2008
I read that you pull the adjacent cylinder then #6. Tom C-GISS ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Feldtman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B Rt engine #6 cyl. Is this deja vu all over again - thought that question popped up a few days ago - my mechanic had to take the engine mounts loose and supporting the engine swing it forward to do it. I reconfimed that with him two days ago when I was out watching him do the annual on the 500B - it is a bear (or something else beginning with a b...) to fix. bobf On 5/16/08, lloyd SILVERMAN wrote: H ey guys & gals, My #6 cyl on rt side (thats the one thats half buried behind support frame) has to come out. Is there any way to ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Thank you: Bill Leff
Date: May 16, 2008
Bill- Thought I'd send out a public Thank-You for your advice on my flap problem from last month. We pulled the flap actuator- couldn't find anything visibly wrong with it- but put new seals in anyway. Have put about 6hrs on the airplane since then with no further problems. I'm happy to say that after nearly three years of restoration, N414C is finally back in service. Only thing we're chasing now lousy pressurization- but we'll get that solved in no time, I'm certain. Robert S. Randazzo N414C ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stan" <swperk(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 17, 2008
Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 17, 2008
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Another brilliant one...
Barry, I guess you can remove this one from the "flying" list. Anyone know who the genius pilot was? Chris ===================================== NTSB Identification: *DFW08LA139* 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Thursday, May 08, 2008 in Hope, AR Aircraft: Commander AC-680, registration: N39BA Injuries: 2 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On May 8, 2008, at 1019 central daylight time, an Aero Commander AT-680E, N39BA, a twin-engine airplane, sustained substantial damage during an emergency landing at Hope Municipal Airport (M18), Hope Arkansas. The private pilot and the passenger were not injured. The airplane was registered to and operated by the pilot. No flight plan was filed for the flight that departed Carlisle Municipal Airport (4M3), Carlisle, Arkansas, about 0900, and was destined for Terrell Municipal Airport (TRL),Terrell, Texas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the personal flight conducted under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. According to two witnesses, who were working a security detail at the airport, they both saw the airplane as it made its approach to land. The witnesses said the airplane "sounded bad" and it was "weaving back and forth" as it approached the runway with its right wing low. The airplane landed, then bounced several times before it came to a complete stop. One of the witnesses said the airplane was never fully lined up with the runway. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) safety inspectors performed an on-scene examination of the airplane. According to the inspectors, the airplane came to rest in a field adjacent to the runway and sustained substantial damage to the right wing and tail cone. The right main and nose landing gear was damaged, and all three propeller blades on the right engine were bent aft at the tips. The airplane was equipped with three fuel tanks in each wing; one inboard of the engine nacelle and two outboard of the engine nacelle. The right wing's two outboard tanks had been disabled and only the right inboard tank was being utilized at the time of the accident. It appeared to be less than a quarter full. Approximately two cups of what appeared to be a mixture of brown sludgy debris, water, and blue fuel were drained from the main fuel strainer in the fuselage. It was also noted that several avionics were not installed in the instrument panel and a large amount of duct tape was placed over a panel on the nose cone near the pilot's side windshield. The pilot held a private pilot certificate for airplane single-engine land only. His last FAA third class medical was issued on February 5, 2008. At that time, he reported a total of 600 hours. Weather at Texarkana Regional Airport-Webb Field (TXK), Texarkana, Arkansas, about 23 miles southwest of Hope, Arkansas, at 1104, was reported as wind from 260 degrees at 10 knots gusting to 17 knots, visibility 10 statute miles, few clouds at 2,300 feet, scattered clouds at 2,800 feet, overcast clouds at 3,600 feet, temperature 70 degrees, dew point 60 degrees, and a barometric pressure setting of 29.74 inches of Mercury. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Another brilliant one...
Date: May 17, 2008
Wow.. Sometimes you just wind up scratching your head. Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 4:07 PM Subject: Commander-List: Another brilliant one... Barry, I guess you can remove this one from the "flying" list. Anyone know who the genius pilot was? Chris ===================================== NTSB Identification: DFW08LA139 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Thursday, May 08, 2008 in Hope, AR Aircraft: Commander AC-680, registration: N39BA Injuries: 2 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On May 8, 2008, at 1019 central daylight time, an Aero Commander AT-680E, N39BA, a twin-engine airplane, sustained substantial damage during an emergency landing at Hope Municipal Airport (M18), Hope Arkansas. The private pilot and the passenger were not injured. The airplane was registered to and operated by the pilot. No flight plan was filed for the flight that departed Carlisle Municipal Airport (4M3), Carlisle, Arkansas, about 0900, and was destined for Terrell Municipal Airport (TRL),Terrell, Texas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the personal flight conducted under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. According to two witnesses, who were working a security detail at the airport, they both saw the airplane as it made its approach to land. The witnesses said the airplane "sounded bad" and it was "weaving back and forth" as it approached the runway with its right wing low. The airplane landed, then bounced several times before it came to a complete stop. One of the witnesses said the airplane was never fully lined up with the runway. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) safety inspectors performed an on-scene examination of the airplane. According to the inspectors, the airplane came to rest in a field adjacent to the runway and sustained substantial damage to the right wing and tail cone. The right main and nose landing gear was damaged, and all three propeller blades on the right engine were bent aft at the tips. The airplane was equipped with three fuel tanks in each wing; one inboard of the engine nacelle and two outboard of the engine nacelle. The right wing's two outboard tanks had been disabled and only the right inboard tank was being utilized at the time of the accident. It appeared to be less than a quarter full. Approximately two cups of what appeared to be a mixture of brown sludgy debris, water, and blue fuel were drained from the main fuel strainer in the fuselage. It was also noted that several avionics were not installed in the instrument panel and a large amount of duct tape was placed over a panel on the nose cone near the pilot's side windshield. The pilot held a private pilot certificate for airplane single-engine land only. His last FAA third class medical was issued on February 5, 2008. At that time, he reported a total of 600 hours. Weather at Texarkana Regional Airport-Webb Field (TXK), Texarkana, Arkansas, about 23 miles southwest of Hope, Arkansas, at 1104, was reported as wind from 260 degrees at 10 knots gusting to 17 knots, visibility 10 statute miles, few clouds at 2,300 feet, scattered clouds at 2,800 feet, overcast clouds at 3,600 feet, temperature 70 degrees, dew point 60 degrees, and a barometric pressure setting of 29.74 inches of Mercury. _____ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Thank you: Bill Leff
Date: May 17, 2008
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
I too had suggested that flued was bypassing the seal, glad it worked!!=C2 - One problem at a time.=C2- jb We pulled the flap actuator- couldn=99t find anything visibly wrong wi th it- but put new seals in anyway.=C2- -----Original Message----- From: Robert S. Randazzo <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> Sent: Fri, 16 May 2008 7:43 pm Subject: Commander-List: Thank you: Bill Leff Bill- =C2- Thought I=99d send out a public Thank-You for your advice on my flap p roblem from last month. =C2- We pulled the flap actuator- couldn=99t find anything visibly wrong wi th it- but put new seals in anyway.=C2- =C2- Have put about 6hrs on the airplane since then with no further problems. =C2- I=99m happy to say that after nearly three years of restoration, N414C is finally back in service.=C2- Only thing we=99re chasing now lous y pressurization- but we=99ll get that solved in no time, I=99m certain. =C2- =C2- Robert S. Randazzo N414C -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Thank you: Bill Leff
Date: May 17, 2008
Well, this confirms why i didn't become a mechanic. And why I stayed away from opening cowls and covers and stuff. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Thank you: Bill Leff I too had suggested that flued was bypassing the seal, glad it worked!! One problem at a time. jb We pulled the flap actuator- couldn't find anything visibly wrong with it- but put new seals in anyway. -----Original Message----- From: Robert S. Randazzo <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> Sent: Fri, 16 May 2008 7:43 pm Subject: Commander-List: Thank you: Bill Leff Bill- Thought I'd send out a public Thank-You for your advice on my flap problem from last month. We pulled the flap actuator- couldn't find anything visibly wrong with it- but put new seals in anyway. Have put about 6hrs on the airplane since then with no further problems. I'm happy to say that after nearly three years of restoration, N414C is finally back in service. Only thing we're chasing now lousy pressurization- but we'll get that solved in no time, I'm certain. Robert S. Randazzo N414C target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ://forums.matronics.com lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Thank you: Bill Leff
Date: May 17, 2008
JB- No disrespect intended. ;-) Have flown N414C now on four flights in the past two days. Airplane is performing flawlessly. Just have to figure out why she=99s stopped pressurizing- and get rid of one really minor squawk with the new autopilot Was pushing 100F all around here today- and MAN those thermals get to be annoying. Been so long since I=99ve flown an airplane without a yaw damper that I=99d forgotten you have to actually use for feet to fly it. :-p Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Thank you: Bill Leff I too had suggested that flued was bypassing the seal, glad it worked!! One problem at a time. jb We pulled the flap actuator- couldn=99t find anything visibly wrong with it- but put new seals in anyway. -----Original Message----- From: Robert S. Randazzo <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> Sent: Fri, 16 May 2008 7:43 pm Subject: Commander-List: Thank you: Bill Leff Bill- Thought I=99d send out a public Thank-You for your advice on my flap problem from last month. We pulled the flap actuator- couldn=99t find anything visibly wrong with it- but put new seals in anyway. Have put about 6hrs on the airplane since then with no further problems. I=99m happy to say that after nearly three years of restoration, N414C is finally back in service. Only thing we=99re chasing now lousy pressurization- but we=99ll get that solved in no time, I=99m certain. Robert S. Randazzo N414C target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ://forums.matronics.com lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Plan your next roadtrip with <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 17, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Thank you: Bill Leff
Yaw damper? Feet? You long-fuselage guys must have a lot more stuff to deal with than us short-fuselage guys. A yaw damper on my 500B would be useless equipment....I can't get her to wiggle her butt no matter what the thermals are doing! /J Robert S. Randazzo wrote: > > JB- > > > > No disrespect intended. ;-) > > > > Have flown N414C now on four flights in the past two days. Airplane > is performing flawlessly. > > > > Just have to figure out why shes stopped pressurizing- and get rid of > one really minor squawk with the new autopilot > > > > Was pushing 100F all around here today- and MAN those thermals get to > be annoying. Been so long since Ive flown an airplane without a yaw > damper that Id forgotten you have to actually use for feet to fly > it. :-p > > > > Robert S. Randazzo > > N414C > > > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *yourtcfg(at)aol.com > *Sent:* Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:14 PM > *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Thank you: Bill Leff > > > > I too had suggested that flued was bypassing the seal, glad it > worked!! One problem at a time. jb > > We pulled the flap actuator- couldnt find anything visibly wrong with > it- but put new seals in anyway. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert S. Randazzo <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Fri, 16 May 2008 7:43 pm > Subject: Commander-List: Thank you: Bill Leff > > Bill- > > > > Thought Id send out a public Thank-You for your advice on my flap > problem from last month. > > > > We pulled the flap actuator- couldnt find anything visibly wrong with > it- but put new seals in anyway. > > > > Have put about 6hrs on the airplane since then with no further problems. > > > > Im happy to say that after nearly three years of restoration, N414C > is finally back in service. Only thing were chasing now lousy > pressurization- but well get that solved in no time, Im certain. > > > > > > Robert S. Randazzo > > N414C > > * * > * * > * target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* > *://forums.matronics.com* > *lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Plan your next roadtrip with _MapQuest.com_ > <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004>: America's #1 > Mapping Site. > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > *_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_* > ** > ** > ** > *_http://forums.matronics.com_* > ** > ** > ** > ** > *_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_* > ** > * * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 18, 2008
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Thank you: Bill Leff
John Vormbaum wrote: > ....I can't get her to wiggle her butt no matter what the thermals are > doing! Just don't ever put a long nose on your bird John. I'm always amazed at how badly that destabilizes an airplane in the yaw axis. I have a friend with the same year Aztec I have but with the long nose. I wallows around in rough air something terrible compared to my my short nose airplane. Also more of a "mushy" feel in pitch at low airspeed in comparison. chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Another brilliant one...
Date: May 18, 2008
Thanks Chris, This is a 680E, s/n 868, that was built as a 560E, then converted later on. As far as I know, the owner is Marvin J McWhorter, who is registered at Camden, Tennessee. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 12:07 AM Subject: Commander-List: Another brilliant one... Barry, I guess you can remove this one from the "flying" list. Anyone know who the genius pilot was? Chris ============ NTSB Identification: DFW08LA139 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Thursday, May 08, 2008 in Hope, AR Aircraft: Commander AC-680, registration: N39BA Injuries: 2 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On May 8, 2008, at 1019 central daylight time, an Aero Commander AT-680E, N39BA, a twin-engine airplane, sustained substantial damage during an emergency landing at Hope Municipal Airport (M18), Hope Arkansas. The private pilot and the passenger were not injured. The airplane was registered to and operated by the pilot. No flight plan was filed for the flight that departed Carlisle Municipal Airport (4M3), Carlisle, Arkansas, about 0900, and was destined for Terrell Municipal Airport (TRL),Terrell, Texas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the personal flight conducted under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. According to two witnesses, who were working a security detail at the airport, they both saw the airplane as it made its approach to land. The witnesses said the airplane "sounded bad" and it was "weaving back and forth" as it approached the runway with its right wing low. The airplane landed, then bounced several times before it came to a complete stop. One of the witnesses said the airplane was never fully lined up with the runway. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) safety inspectors performed an on-scene examination of the airplane. According to the inspectors, the airplane came to rest in a field adjacent to the runway and sustained substantial damage to the right wing and tail cone. The right main and nose landing gear was damaged, and all three propeller blades on the right engine were bent aft at the tips. The airplane was equipped with three fuel tanks in each wing; one inboard of the engine nacelle and two outboard of the engine nacelle. The right wing's two outboard tanks had been disabled and only the right inboard tank was being utilized at the time of the accident. It appeared to be less than a quarter full. Approximately two cups of what appeared to be a mixture of brown sludgy debris, water, and blue fuel were drained from the main fuel strainer in the fuselage. It was also noted that several avionics were not installed in the instrument panel and a large amount of duct tape was placed over a panel on the nose cone near the pilot's side windshield. The pilot held a private pilot certificate for airplane single-engine land only. His last FAA third class medical was issued on February 5, 2008. At that time, he reported a total of 600 hours. Weather at Texarkana Regional Airport-Webb Field (TXK), Texarkana, Arkansas, about 23 miles southwest of Hope, Arkansas, at 1104, was reported as wind from 260 degrees at 10 knots gusting to 17 knots, visibility 10 statute miles, few clouds at 2,300 feet, scattered clouds at 2,800 feet, overcast clouds at 3,600 feet, temperature 70 degrees, dew point 60 degrees, and a barometric pressure setting of 29.74 inches of Mercury. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 18, 2008
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Another brilliant one...
Barry Collman wrote: > Thanks Chris, > > This is a 680E, s/n 868, that was built as a 560E, then converted > later on. Can't say I've ever seen that one or know the owner. It just burns me that idiots like that make life miserable for those of who who take the privilege of flying seriously. From the report, that wasn't an accident - it was a series of very irresponsible decisions which ended up destroying yet another airplane. chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Thank you: Bill Leff
From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: May 19, 2008
> Only thing were chasing now lousy pressurization- but well get that solved in no time, Im certain. > I chased lousy pressurization in 414C for years with only limited success. Good luck. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183784#183784 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 19, 2008
Hi All, One person who we must try and get to attend the 60th Anniversary Fly-In is Ron Smith, Ted's son. Ron did attend one of the Fly-Ins at Dayton, Ohio about 10 years ago. Since then, it seems to went off to the Pacific somewhere to do some Missionary work for a couple of years. He should have returned quite a while ago now, but nobody seems to know his whereabouts. The last communication I had from Ron was by Fax. Although I cannot lay my hands on it right now, I think the business he had was called "RKS Enterprises". If anybody has any possible leads, please let me know. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Stan To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 19, 2008
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21.? We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel.? However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms.? We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, ? Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. ? Thanks, Stan N681SP ? ? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 19, 2008
jb, sign me up. gmc N2001M/N70QT In DatesDate: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:23:55 -0400From: yourtcfg(at)aol.comHi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the si te with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating ra tes with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding an y non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of room s. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb-----Original M essage-----From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net>To: commander-list(at)matronics.co mSent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 amSubject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In D ates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my s chedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available fo r the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 19, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Jim, I'm 90% certain I'll make it this year....no new babies on the way this time :-). /J yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote: > Hi Stan & Others, > > The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site > with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating > rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require > funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation > of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an > appropriate number of rooms. > > We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. > > ~jb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am > Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates > > Hi All, > > Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning > my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend > available for the fly-in. > > Thanks, > Stan > N681SP > > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com > <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004>: America's #1 > Mapping Site. > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 20, 2008
Jb, Jax and I will be there. Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, 20 May 2008 5:24 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP _____ Plan your next roadtrip with <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> MapQuest.com: America 's #1 Mapping Site. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 20, 2008
G'day Jim, Planning to get along! Cheers Russell PS Still looking to purchase a decent Commander! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Date: May 19, 2008
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Count me in, however, I may not be able to stay for the full fou days. Gil **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Date: May 19, 2008
Subject: Re: Another brilliant one...
I believe this guy is a relative of former governor, Ned Mcwhorter Democrat!! **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 19, 2008
Count me in Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 19, 2008
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
I can't tell you what I will be doing ten minutes from now but I am planning on being there in September. Jim Addington _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP _____ Plan your next roadtrip with <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2008
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote: > > The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site > with the current Service Center It's going to be in OKC, right? Which airport? Web site still shows last year's event. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 20, 2008
PWA > Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 06:32:23 -0500> From: cschuerm(at)cox.net> To: comman der-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates cfg(at)aol.com wrote:> >> > The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site > > with the current Service Center > > It's going to be i n OKC, right? Which airport? Web site still shows > last year's event.> Chr =====> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 20, 2008
I will publish on the site ASAP. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:32 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote: > > The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site > with the current Service Center It's going to be in OKC, right? Which airport? Web site still shows last year's event. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 20, 2008
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Hi Chris, Yup, we'll be at OKC at Wiley Post.? As soon as hotel as been firmed up we will change website. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> Sent: Tue, 20 May 2008 4:32 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates ? yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:? >? > The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site > with the current Service Center ? It's going to be in OKC, right? Which airport? Web site still shows last year's event.? Chris? ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2008
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Yup, we'll be at OKC at Wiley Post. Well, if I can manage to get away from work for a few hours, I'll try to drop in briefly just to say howdy to some old friends. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 20, 2008
From: "Steele, Bob" <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com>
CJB, Sandy and I will be attending. Can you make sure the motel has the larger luggage carriers? I would like to keep the luggage carrying from the car to the room to just 3 trips. Thanks, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP ________________________________ Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 20, 2008
Hi Bob, 3 trips is nothing, absolute peanuts. I've got to use a Boeing 777 to bring all my luggage over ;-) See you there ! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Steele, Bob To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates CJB, Sandy and I will be attending. Can you make sure the motel has the larger luggage carriers? I would like to keep the luggage carrying from the car to the room to just 3 trips. Thanks, Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:24 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 20, 2008
IS that what is called traveling Heavy? Now I know why you fly a Twin Commander :) I will be there this year. Tylor Hall On May 20, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Steele, Bob wrote: > CJB, > > Sandy and I will be attending. > > Can you make sure the motel has the larger luggage carriers? I > would like to keep the luggage carrying from the car to the room to > just 3 trips. > > Thanks, > > Bob > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > ] On Behalf Ofyourtcfg(at)aol.com > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:24 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates > > Hi Stan & Others, > > The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site > with the current Service Center and are in the process of > negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract > may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a > rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we > can book an appropriate number of rooms. > > We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. > > ~jb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am > Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates > Hi All, > > Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start > planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that > weekend available for the fly-in. > > Thanks, > Stan > N681SP > > > Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard & Jacqui Thompson" <RnJThompson(at)aol.com>
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 21, 2008
Hey Bob, I seem to remember that you are an expert on luggage carriers. We had the pleasure of observing you in action at Fredricksburg. Under instruction of course by the beautiful Sandy. Need to see a solo effort this year. (ever thought of fitting roof racks to your bird?) Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Bob Sent: Wednesday, 21 May 2008 6:22 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates CJB, Sandy and I will be attending. Can you make sure the motel has the larger luggage carriers? I would like to keep the luggage carrying from the car to the room to just 3 trips. Thanks, Bob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP _____ Plan your next roadtrip with <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> MapQuest.com: America 's #1 Mapping Site. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Mansfield" <hcourier(at)cox.net>
Subject: Resistor for trim tab indicator system
Date: May 20, 2008
Clear DayHello, Trying to get the annual completed on the AC-68 (680 FLP) I fly. Does anyone know a source for a 10-200 ohm variable resistor that's used in the trim tab position indicator system? The indicator fluctuates a lot or shows 15 degrees up setting most of the time. Maintenance thinks it's this resistor as it was loose and looked overheated when they inspected the system. Am also checking with the local avionics folks. Trying to cover all bases as parts for this plane are sometimes hard to find. Thank you, Ray Mansfield 850-217-5185 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Commander available to a new owner
Date: May 20, 2008
All, I have made the difficult decision to make available my 1970 500S as my flying missions have changed significantly. My Apache and share of a Cherokee 6 are able to fulfill my flying needs. I have not posted it yet in other venues but will be doing so shortly. If there is any interest amongst our group please e-mail me at dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net and I will send a spec sheet. Don Falik ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert S. Randazzo" <rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com>
Subject: Resistor for trim tab indicator system
Date: May 21, 2008
Ray- Unfortunately, this is a common fault item in Commanders. The part can be purchased through a Commander Service Center for about $3500. (It is drop shipped from Twin Commander Aircraft Company- but they won't deal with you directly on the sale.) We had this problem with N414C, and tried all the various venues for secondary market parts without any luck. Wound up parting with the money. Be careful with the part- as they are very fragile. Our shop had two of them break during installation- fortunately we were able to avail ourselves of some good customer service from Twin Commander Corporation to take both the broken ones back. We felt that they were defective upon arrival- and after looking them over TCAC agreed. But it was still an expensive item. If you have any questions- just shout them out and I'll do my best to answer for you. Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Mansfield Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 8:31 PM Subject: Commander-List: Resistor for trim tab indicator system Hello, Trying to get the annual completed on the AC-68 (680 FLP) I fly. Does anyone know a source for a 10-200 ohm variable resistor that's used in the trim tab position indicator system? The indicator fluctuates a lot or shows 15 degrees up setting most of the time. Maintenance thinks it's this resistor as it was loose and looked overheated when they inspected the system. Am also checking with the local avionics folks. Trying to cover all bases as parts for this plane are sometimes hard to find. Thank you, Ray Mansfield 850-217-5185 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Capt Windham...are you locking in for Wiley Post?
Date: May 21, 2008
________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 21, 2008
bc, if you fly into DFW would you like a ride to PWA? gmc From: barry.collman(at)air-britain.co.ukTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubjec t: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In DatesDate: Tue, 20 May 2008 21:36:3 Hi Bob, 3 trips is nothing, absolute peanuts. I've got to use a Boeing 777 to bring all my luggage over ;-) See you there ! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Steele, Bob Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates CJB, Sandy and I will be attending. Can you make sure the motel has the larger luggage carriers? I would like to keep the luggage carrying from the car to the room to just 3 trips. Thanks, Bob From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.comSent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:24 PMTo: commander-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Commander-List: 20 08 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secure d the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negoti ating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require fu nding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb-----Or iginal Message-----From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net>To: commander-list@matr onics.comSent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 amSubject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my s chedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available fo r the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. htt p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comht tp://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 21, 2008
From: "Steele, Bob" <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com>
Richard, I tried one of those storage contraptions you have seen hanging off the belly of a Caravan. Soon as we took the Commander down from the jacks - we crushed it. We probably should have read the manual about the required clearance. As for Sandy helping, this year I have bought her some lighted batons, with holster. This ought to speed up the process of unloading and loading (in the white zone only of course). See you in September! (I wonder if the hotel bar serves chocolate martinis.) Regards, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:28 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hey Bob, I seem to remember that you are an expert on luggage carriers. We had the pleasure of observing you in action at Fredricksburg. Under instruction of course by the beautiful Sandy. Need to see a solo effort this year. (ever thought of fitting roof racks to your bird?) Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Bob Sent: Wednesday, 21 May 2008 6:22 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates CJB, Sandy and I will be attending. Can you make sure the motel has the larger luggage carriers? I would like to keep the luggage carrying from the car to the room to just 3 trips. Thanks, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP ________________________________ Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 21, 2008
Hi Mason, That's really most kind of you, but at this moment in time, I'm planning on getting to OKC a day or two early. Hopefully, I can then get some photos as the attendee Commanders arrive, before they're parked wing-tip to wing-tip. That always makes getting good shots virtually impossible. In any event, I'll certainly be looking forward to seeing you again. Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: MASON CHEVAILLIER To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 1:58 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates bc, if you fly into DFW would you like a ride to PWA? gmc ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2008
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Resistor for trim tab indicator system
Bruce Campbell wrote: > I can't email the pictures, but the description is a wire wound linear variable resistor (I think 500ohm or thereabouts) in a frame with an externally actuated arm controlling the wiper. I vaguely remember that. If the core piece that the wire is wound around is in good shape, this should be an easy and cheap repair. Some enterprising person might want to just design a real replacement part and get a PMA on it even. This place could probably do the job with ease: http://www.classic-coil.com/classic-coil/index.htm Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Resistor for trim tab indicator system
Date: May 21, 2008
I think several of us Commander owners might be in need of this part, if it can be reproduced economically. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <cschuerm(at)cox.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Resistor for trim tab indicator system > > Bruce Campbell wrote: >> I can't email the pictures, but the description is a wire wound linear >> variable resistor (I think 500ohm or thereabouts) in a frame with an >> externally actuated arm controlling the wiper. > > I vaguely remember that. If the core piece that the wire is wound > around is in good shape, this should be an easy and cheap repair. Some > enterprising person might want to just design a real replacement part > and get a PMA on it even. This place could probably do the job with > ease: > http://www.classic-coil.com/classic-coil/index.htm > > Chris > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG. 3:51 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resistor for trim tab indicator system
Date: May 21, 2008
Hi Folks, Yes, an economically produced part could probably be sold to several of us. Having said that, after 28 years of flying aircraft that did not have a good functioning trim indicator, would I ever remember to look at it? Moe N680RR 680Fp -------------------------------------------------- From: "Don" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Resistor for trim tab indicator system > > I think several of us Commander owners might be in need of this part, if > it can be reproduced economically. > > Don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris" <cschuerm(at)cox.net> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Resistor for trim tab indicator system > > >> >> Bruce Campbell wrote: >>> I can't email the pictures, but the description is a wire wound linear >>> variable resistor (I think 500ohm or thereabouts) in a frame with an >>> externally actuated arm controlling the wiper. >> >> I vaguely remember that. If the core piece that the wire is wound >> around is in good shape, this should be an easy and cheap repair. Some >> enterprising person might want to just design a real replacement part >> and get a PMA on it even. This place could probably do the job with >> ease: >> http://www.classic-coil.com/classic-coil/index.htm >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Checked by AVG. > 3:51 PM > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 21, 2008
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Bob, No problem with the luggage carts, but need to make sure you are type rated to handle one and have the necessary licenses and a Class 1 medical.=C2- R emember, we'll be watching your taxi and handling of said carts. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Steele, Bob <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com> Sent: Wed, 21 May 2008 7:26 am Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Richard, =C2- I tried one of those storage contraptions you have seen hanging off the bell y of a Caravan.=C2- Soon as we took the Commander down from the jacks =93 we crushed it.=C2- We probably should have read the manual about th e required clearance. =C2- As for Sandy helping, this year I have bought her some lighted batons, with holster.=C2- This ought to speed up the process of unloading and loading ( in the white zone only of course). =C2- See you in September!=C2- (I wonder if the hotel bar serves chocolate mart inis.) =C2- Regards, =C2- Bob =C2- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list -server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:28 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates =C2- Hey Bob, I seem to remember that you are an expert on luggage carriers. We had the pl easure of observing you in action at Fredricksburg. Under instruction of cou rse by the beautiful Sandy. Need to see a solo effort this year. (ever thoug ht of fitting roof racks to your bird?) Cheers Richard =C2- -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list -server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Bob Sent: Wednesday, 21 May 2008 6:22 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates =C2- CJB, =C2- Sandy and I will be attending.=C2- =C2- Can you make sure the motel has the larger luggage carriers?=C2- I would l ike to keep the luggage carrying from the car to the room to just 3 trips. =C2- Thanks, =C2- Bob =C2- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list -server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates =C2- Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21.=C2- We have secured the site wit h the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates wit h a local hotel.=C2- However, the hotel contract may require funding any n on-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. =C2- We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, =C2- Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my sc hedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. =C2- Thanks, Stan N681SP =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. =C2- =C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- ================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2008
From: "lloyd SILVERMAN" <lloydsss(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resistor for trim tab indicator system
MOE, 40+ YEARS AGO I WORKED AT A COMPANY THAT MANUFACTURED AN ALMOST IDENTICAL PART FOR GRUMAN. THE WIRE WAS "EVANOHM MANUFACTURED BY WIBUR DRIVER CO. OR AN EQUAL BY DRIVER HARRIS CO. THE TEMP COEF WAS 20 PPM/DEG C. WIRE SIZE WAS .010 , I DONT REMEMBER # OF TURNS BUT 500 OHMS IS CORRECT. (REMEMBER ALLTHAT BUT WHAT DID I HAVE FOR BREAKFAST THIS MORNING?). THE SUBSTRATE WAS EPOXY BOARD ,SIMILAR TO G10. SHOULD BE RATHER SIMPLE FOR ANY AMBITIOUS ELEC ENGR OR TECH TO REPAIR THEM. RGDS,6290X 500B ,LLOYD SILVERMAN On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Moe-rosspistons wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > > Yes, an economically produced part could probably be sold to several of us. > Having said that, after 28 years of flying aircraft that did not have a good > functioning trim indicator, would I ever remember to look at it? > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Don" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net> > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 10:23 AM > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Resistor for trim tab indicator system > >> >> I think several of us Commander owners might be in need of this part, if >> it can be reproduced economically. >> >> Don >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" <cschuerm(at)cox.net> >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 12:04 PM >> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Resistor for trim tab indicator system >> >> >>> >>> Bruce Campbell wrote: >>>> >>>> I can't email the pictures, but the description is a wire wound linear >>>> variable resistor (I think 500ohm or thereabouts) in a frame with an >>>> externally actuated arm controlling the wiper. >>> >>> I vaguely remember that. If the core piece that the wire is wound >>> around is in good shape, this should be an easy and cheap repair. Some >>> enterprising person might want to just design a real replacement part >>> and get a PMA on it even. This place could probably do the job with >>> ease: >>> http://www.classic-coil.com/classic-coil/index.htm >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Checked by AVG. >> 3:51 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- LLOYD ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 22, 2008
From: "Steele, Bob" <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com>
CJB, I only have a Class 2 medical - how about a temporary waiver? If I am with an instructor do I have to the type rating? If so, would you be my instructor? Bob ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Bob, No problem with the luggage carts, but need to make sure you are type rated to handle one and have the necessary licenses and a Class 1 medical. Remember, we'll be watching your taxi and handling of said carts. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Steele, Bob <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com> Sent: Wed, 21 May 2008 7:26 am Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Richard, I tried one of those storage contraptions you have seen hanging off the belly of a Caravan. Soon as we took the Commander down from the jacks - we crushed it. We probably should have read the manual about the required clearance. As for Sandy helping, this year I have bought her some lighted batons, with holster. This ought to speed up the process of unloading and loading (in the white zone only of course). See you in September! (I wonder if the hotel bar serves chocolate martinis.) Regards, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Richard & Jacqui Thompson Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:28 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hey Bob, I seem to remember that you are an expert on luggage carriers. We had the pleasure of observing you in action at Fredricksburg. Under instruction of course by the beautiful Sandy. Need to see a solo effort this year. (ever thought of fitting roof racks to your bird?) Cheers Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Steele, Bob Sent: Wednesday, 21 May 2008 6:22 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates CJB, Sandy and I will be attending. Can you make sure the motel has the larger luggage carriers? I would like to keep the luggage carrying from the car to the room to just 3 trips. Thanks, Bob ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi Stan & Others, The TCFG Flyin dates are September 18-21. We have secured the site with the current Service Center and are in the process of negotiating rates with a local hotel. However, the hotel contract may require funding any non-used rooms, so we would like to get a rough estimation of how many of you are planning on attending so we can book an appropriate number of rooms. We're getting excited about seeing all of you again. ~jb -----Original Message----- From: Stan <swperk(at)earthlink.net <mailto:swperk(at)earthlink.net> > Sent: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:46 am Subject: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Hi All, Have the dates for the fly-in been finalized? I need to start planning my schedule for September and want to be sure to keep that weekend available for the fly-in. Thanks, Stan N681SP ________________________________ Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> -- http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> =========== ________________________________ Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone <http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOverview=aol-mobile-o v erview&?ncid=aolmbd00030000000139> . <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 22, 2008
Bob Steele, Is your Commander equiped with those 150 dollar pet carrier compartments? David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates
Date: May 23, 2008
From: "Steele, Bob" <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com>
No sir. No pets, just kids. ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Owens Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 2008 TCFG Fly-In Dates Bob Steele, Is your Commander equiped with those 150 dollar pet carrier compartments? David Owens Aerial Viewpoint N14AV AC-500A-Colemill ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 25, 2008
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 25, 2008
Amen. We will only be the home of the free as long as we are the home of the brave. Did Dubya say that? _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:11 PM Subject: Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those who have served and are serving our great nation. I travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you". I challenge all of you to do the same. jb _____ Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone <http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOverview=aol-mobile-overvi ew&?ncid=aolmbd00030000000139> . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 25, 2008
From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com>
You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: THOSE WHO SERVED
Jim, Hear hear! We have a friend in the 101st Airborne in Afghanistan. I routinely thank every returning solder I see! Happy Memorial Day, /John yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote: > lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those who have > served and are serving our great nation. I travel a lot on the > airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see > "Thank you". I challenge all of you to do the same. jb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone > <http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOverview=aol-mobile-overview&?ncid=aolmbd00030000000139>. > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: THOSE WHO SERVED
Wow Brock, that's pretty deep....and well said. /J Brock Lorber wrote: > You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War: > > "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." > > By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg(at)aol.com > Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED > > lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2008
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: THOSE WHO SERVED
It is a sure bet it was not B.O. or Hill. Jim _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED Amen. We will only be the home of the free as long as we are the home of the brave. Did Dubya say that? _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:11 PM Subject: Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those who have served and are serving our great nation. I travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you". I challenge all of you to do the same. jb _____ Stay informed, get connected and more with <http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOverview=aol-mobile-overvi ew&?ncid=aolmbd00030000000139> AOL on your phone. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bud Williams" <rambud(at)windstream.net>
Subject: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 26, 2008
Mr Lorber, Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where someone has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it begs a response. Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The Art of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia." The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context of the times in which it was "written." Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected." War, not business/industry. Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it was written. Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities." Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern preparations for, and the conduct of, the war. Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:-- (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose every battle. No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever rose to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the rights of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those merchants. This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was not achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never set on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at that time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the valuable markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's finished products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what would eventually become the world's most powerful navy. The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea, and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" of pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other parts of the world). The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military. The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth (economic and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth. This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until American men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck (most notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will honor the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not speaking fluent German. Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan, Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, and media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world that you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are just as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected. You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor Day, a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the world's leading economy. Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families, their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper. I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. Fine. Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether you choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises the very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made this country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is your military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what it is trained to do. To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on." It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish, and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this country. Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 25, 2008
Wow, Bud. I was busy compiling a response, but I thought it best to delete it. I'll keep this one instead. Thank you for your service, sir. Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Williams Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:17 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED --> Mr Lorber, Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where someone has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it begs a response. Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The Art of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia." The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context of the times in which it was "written." Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected." War, not business/industry. Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it was written. Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities." Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern preparations for, and the conduct of, the war. Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:-- (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose every battle. No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever rose to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the rights of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those merchants. This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was not achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never set on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at that time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the valuable markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's finished products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what would eventually become the world's most powerful navy. The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea, and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" of pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other parts of the world). The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military. The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth (economic and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth. This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until American men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck (most notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will honor the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not speaking fluent German. Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan, Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, and media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world that you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are just as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected. You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor Day, a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the world's leading economy. Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families, their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper. I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. Fine. Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether you choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises the very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made this country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is your military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what it is trained to do. To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on." It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish, and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this country. Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 26, 2008
From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com>
Col Williams: With respect, Sir, you misunderstand me. I, educated in the lower halls of the building named for Fairchild, learned philosophical lessons that invariably did not apply to the "real Air Force", but struck a chord in me nonetheless that fueled my appreciation for me and my fellow man that I carried into and applied with great success in the "real Air Force". Upon graduation, I learned that the ubiquitous saw that "grads had no applicable technical knowledge" was true, but found no more applicable knowledge in technical training. I found (as I am sure you did) that the "real Air Force" required experience in the "real Air Force", commanding Airmen, writing reports, and advocating the application of limited resources in the way I divined was the best way to complete the mission as outlined by those above me in rank and position. What never failed, however, was the philosophical premise upon which my service was based. It is rare, even among the officer corps, to find someone with an appreciation for the words of Sun Tzu that you obviously command. My knowledge of the General's words come from reading and re-reading his words, and striving to apply them to every endeavor, even if I have to fashion myself as the opposition - certainly anyone can imagine their worst enemy as themselves. I did not quote the General lightly, nor, I believe, out of context. You did not presume that I am anti-war, or pacifist in common parlance, and for that I thank you. However, you did suggest that I quoted the General in an anti-war context. You also suggest that Sun Tzu's sayings, as written, have no place in competitive endeavors other than war. I ask, Colonel, is war such a unique animal to be treated as a separate class other than competitive? Is not the competition between Company A and Company B subject to the same strategy and tactics as war? The answer is, in my opinion, no. Competition is competition, and the General's words apply equally to any form of competition. I can find no occasion where adversaries have taken the field that the General's admonitions did not apply. Sun Tzu was a wise philosopher whose words, as relayed, transcend time and place; they are as applicable now as ever. You, rightly, note that mercantile trade is proportionate to naval might. I ascertain that neither is precipitous; that is, naval might is worthless without mercantile trade and mercantile trade shall not long survive without a navy to keep her shipping lanes open. Although it may seem that we have no quarrel, I posit that a naval force, fully funded by the mercantile trade (and passed to customers through price), can accomplish the same ends. What's more, that system passes the cost of keeping the shipping lanes open to the end users in proportion to their consumption of the goods passed. As you mentioned the army, it should be noted that, per the Constitution of the United States, that a standing army (and, by extension, her child the USAF) is authorized to the congress but, "no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years". Luckily, for your career and my term, congress has seen fit to authorize that appropriation. It is by no means a foregone conclusion, however, since the inception of our constitution, that a standing army is either a fit or desired component of the federal government. Out of respect, Sir, I shall ask you to revise your farcical ascertation that German would be the predominant language if the US had not entered the European theater in WWII. I have seen no credible evidence Germany was an occupying threat to the United States, nor that the Third Reich held any disposition toward codifying the German language, however, I stand to be corrected on both counts. Defeating fascists is hard to define. Before, during, and after WWII, fascists were the leading political influence in the United States. It was presumed, in the US, that a council of knowledgeable businessmen in a given field could determine both the product and price of all producers in that field. It failed, of course, miserably, but for economic reasons totally separate from any war, yet that is the enemy we still face each and every day. It is not, in my way of thinking, disingenuous to compare the current ideological conflict to the conflict continuing since the 7th century, that is, control of Jerusalem. I really, really understand why the vocal minority has always felt that way. I just can not. I have my own parts of the world I'm working to control. General Sun Tzu is firmly in my camp, regardless of whom else chooses to believe it. Brock Lorber (If I could use such a signature block it would be: Capt, USAFR) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Bud Williams Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 10:16 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO Mr Lorber, Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where someone has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it begs a response. Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The Art of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia." The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context of the times in which it was "written." Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected." War, not business/industry. Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it was written. Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities." Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern preparations for, and the conduct of, the war. Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:-- (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose every battle. No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever rose to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the rights of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those merchants. This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was not achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never set on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at that time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the valuable markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's finished products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what would eventually become the world's most powerful navy. The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea, and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" of pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other parts of the world). The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military. The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth (economic and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth. This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until American men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck (most notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will honor the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not speaking fluent German. Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan, Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, and media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world that you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are just as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected. You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor Day, a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the world's leading economy. Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families, their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper. I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. Fine. Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether you choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises the very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made this country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is your military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what it is trained to do. To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on." It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish, and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this country. Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 26, 2008
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
AMEN.......jb -----Original Message----- From: Bud Williams <rambud(at)windstream.net> Sent: Sun, 25 May 2008 10:16 pm Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED Mr Lorber, Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where someone has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it begs a response. Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The Art of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia." The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context of the times in which it was "written." Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected." War, not business/industry. Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it was written. Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities." Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern preparations for, and the conduct of, the war. Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:-- (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose every battle. No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever rose to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the rights of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those merchants. This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was not achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never set on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at that time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the valuable markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's finished products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what would eventually become the world's most powerful navy. The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea, and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" of pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other parts of the world). The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military. The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth (economic and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth. This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until American men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck (most notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will honor the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not speaking fluent German. Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan, Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, and media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world that you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are just as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected. You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor Day, a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the world's leading economy. Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families, their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper. I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. Fine. Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether you choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises the very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made this country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is your military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what it is trained to do. To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on." It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish, and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this country. Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: INTERESTING DELIVERY
Date: May 26, 2008
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI KIDS As?some of you know, I deliver all types of airplanes all over the country, even around the world.? I recently delivered a 500B from Commander Services, Stockton CA to Central Air in Kansas city.? The trip started with he delivery of a new American Champion Scout, on 31" tundra tires, from Caldwell ID to Moab UT.? I checked the new owner out (great fun flying in the spectacular canyons!), then flew the "crowd killer" to CA.? The 500B was just out of an extensive annual and had a new long shrike nose as well as the Central Air boost pump mod.? The boost pumps are removed from the fuel sump and installed in the engine nacelle, great improvement!! John Vormbaum had already test flown it so when I got there it was "squawk free".? I blasted off and headed east, into a headwind, yep, a headwind eastbound, lucky me!!? Crossing the Sierra Nevada range was spectacular.? Still plenty of snow.? The weather deteriorated as?I pushed east.? Through Utah, I had to do a bit of unexpected scud running.? The clouds became broken again, but flying in the haze and mist was putting some airframe ice on.? it is pretty unusual to be VFR and icing??? It has only happened a few times in all my flying. Still into a headwind, I pressed on to Moab UT, where just the previous day I had flown the Scout.? I fueled ($7.50 per gallon, self serve!!? Yikes!!).? I then crossed the Rockies.? Crossing in a straight line ment flying at 14K?over?13,999' mountains for about an hour and a half.? Crossing?high mountains in a normally aspirated twin,?means flying it like a single.? If an engine fails, you will land the airplane.? Even the valley floors were well above the single engine ceiling.? I kept a close watch on roads, valley floors and even frozen lakes as a possible landing spot.??The airplane however worked perfectly and I was soon looking at the great?plains.? It was then things began to get very interesting.? The forecast had been for only minor, widespread T showers that day.? The next day was to be (and was) much worse.? I was 12 hours ahead of the storms that just ripped Colorado!!? The weather forecast was way off (funny how people?believe that we can predict what the weather will be?like in 100 years i.e.?"global warming" when we cant predict, with any accuracy, what the weather will be?in a week, or even tomorrow!!? amazing)? anyway.? All I could see in front of the airplane was water from the sky and lighting.? I made a half hearted attempt to work my way through it, but quickly gave up.? The storm scope in the airplane had so many lightning strikes it looked like it was in the test mode!! I called center and was told that the unexpected development was 180 miles to my?south and 100 miles north, moving north a 40kts.? I turned?north and enjoyed the first?and only tailwinds of the trip, 235kts.? I could see lots of lightning both on the storm scope and out the window but keep a distanced and finally was able to turn back east.? The speed immediately went from 235kts to 119kts!!?? I had used up my fuel reserves and made a precautionary fuel stop in N.Platt NE just to be sure.? Then on to KC without incident landing?a little after midnight.? There are few things more beautiful than flying over a big city, in a Commander, at night.? Breathtaking!!? John Towner runs a first class freight operation there and I spent a comfortable night in his "bunk house" to?be awakened the next morning?by the loudest clap of thunder I?ever hear.? The rain on the hangar?roof was so loud I could not use my cell phone.? The storm had made it to KC.? man was?I glad to be on the ground!! ??Just another day in the life of a "Delivery Dog"!!? jb? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: INTERESTING DELIVERY
Wow Jim, that's a pretty exciting trip! Living in CA I have ZERO experience with T-storms....and I hope to keep it that way! Glad you made it safely & had some good friends on the other end of the trip to take you in. The Towners are the best! Cheers, /John yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote: > HI KIDS > As some of you know, I deliver all types of airplanes all over the > country, even around the world. I recently delivered a 500B from > Commander Services, Stockton CA to Central Air in Kansas city. The > trip started with he delivery of a new American Champion Scout, on 31" > tundra tires, from Caldwell ID to Moab UT. I checked the new owner > out (great fun flying in the spectacular canyons!), then flew the > "crowd killer" to CA. The 500B was just out of an extensive annual > and had a new long shrike nose as well as the Central Air boost pump > mod. The boost pumps are removed from the fuel sump and installed in > the engine nacelle, great improvement!! > John Vormbaum had already test flown it so when I got there it was > "squawk free". I blasted off and headed east, into a headwind, yep, a > headwind eastbound, lucky me!! Crossing the Sierra Nevada range was > spectacular. Still plenty of snow. The weather deteriorated as I > pushed east. Through Utah, I had to do a bit of unexpected scud > running. The clouds became broken again, but flying in the haze and > mist was putting some airframe ice on. it is pretty unusual to be VFR > and icing?? It has only happened a few times in all my flying. > Still into a headwind, I pressed on to Moab UT, where just the > previous day I had flown the Scout. I fueled ($7.50 per gallon, self > serve!! Yikes!!). I then crossed the Rockies. Crossing in a > straight line ment flying at 14K over 13,999' mountains for about an > hour and a half. Crossing high mountains in a normally aspirated > twin, means flying it like a single. If an engine fails, you will > land the airplane. Even the valley floors were well above the single > engine ceiling. I kept a close watch on roads, valley floors and even > frozen lakes as a possible landing spot. The airplane however worked > perfectly and I was soon looking at the great plains. It was then > things began to get very interesting. The forecast had been for only > minor, widespread T showers that day. The next day was to be (and > was) much worse. I was 12 hours ahead of the storms that just ripped > Colorado!!&n bsp; The weather forecast was way off (funny how > people believe that we can predict what the weather will be like in > 100 years i.e. "global warming" when we cant predict, with any > accuracy, what the weather will be in a week, or even tomorrow!! > amazing) anyway. All I could see in front of the airplane was water > from the sky and lighting. I made a half hearted attempt to work my > way through it, but quickly gave up. The storm scope in the airplane > had so many lightning strikes it looked like it was in the test mode!! > I called center and was told that the unexpected development was 180 > miles to my south and 100 miles north, moving north a 40kts. I > turned north and enjoyed the first and only tailwinds of the trip, > 235kts. I could see lots of lightning both on the storm scope and out > the window but keep a distanced and finally was able to turn back > east. The speed immediately went from 235kts to 119kts!! I had used > up my fuel reserves and made a precautionary fuel stop in N.Platt NE > just to be sure. Then on to KC without incident landing a little > after midnight. There are few things more beautiful than flying over > a big city, in a Commander, at night. Breathtaking!! John Towner > runs a first class freight operation there and I spent a comfortable > night in his "bunk house" to be awakened the next morning by the > loudest clap of thunder I ever hear. The rain on the hangar roof was > so loud I could not use my cell phone. The storm had made it to KC. > man was I glad to be on the ground!! Just another day in the life of > a "Delivery Dog"!! jb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone > <http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOverview=aol-mobile-overview&?ncid=aolmbd00030000000139>. > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 26, 2008
> I have seen no credible evidence Germany was an occupying threat to the > United States, ... however, I stand to be corrected .... In Mein Kampf, while the US is not (as far as I remember) not specifically mentioned, it is clear that Hitler viewed the Aryan race was the superior and, again, if I remember correctly, Hitler directly states in Mein Kampf the Aryans had the right to subjugate the inferior and bend them according to the Aryan will. Of course, I'm assuming that the US and the rest of the world would have been within Hitler's sights had he succeeded in Europe. A counterpoint argument to this is the 1942 agreement Hitler reached with the Japanese to divide Asia amongst them: ergo, no world domination if they were to share the world with the Japanese, so therefore the Americas might have been left alone. But, as a counter-counterpoint, one could argue that Hitler was pretty ticked with the Japanese hosting several thousands of Jewish refugees, courtesy of Sugihara Chiune, a Japanese diplomat, who gave them visas to enable their escape. (As a result of his actions Sugihara Chiune was stripped of his post and served out the majority of his post-war life as a salesman in Russia. Sugihara Chiune is also the only Japanese to have been awarded the "Khasidei Umot ha-Olam" by the government of Israel.) Regards, Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 12:58 AM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED Col Williams: With respect, Sir, you misunderstand me. I, educated in the lower halls of the building named for Fairchild, learned philosophical lessons that invariably did not apply to the "real Air Force", but struck a chord in me nonetheless that fueled my appreciation for me and my fellow man that I carried into and applied with great success in the "real Air Force". Upon graduation, I learned that the ubiquitous saw that "grads had no applicable technical knowledge" was true, but found no more applicable knowledge in technical training. I found (as I am sure you did) that the "real Air Force" required experience in the "real Air Force", commanding Airmen, writing reports, and advocating the application of limited resources in the way I divined was the best way to complete the mission as outlined by those above me in rank and position. What never failed, however, was the philosophical premise upon which my service was based. It is rare, even among the officer corps, to find someone with an appreciation for the words of Sun Tzu that you obviously command. My knowledge of the General's words come from reading and re-reading his words, and striving to apply them to every endeavor, even if I have to fashion myself as the opposition - certainly anyone can imagine their worst enemy as themselves. I did not quote the General lightly, nor, I believe, out of context. You did not presume that I am anti-war, or pacifist in common parlance, and for that I thank you. However, you did suggest that I quoted the General in an anti-war context. You also suggest that Sun Tzu's sayings, as written, have no place in competitive endeavors other than war. I ask, Colonel, is war such a unique animal to be treated as a separate class other than competitive? Is not the competition between Company A and Company B subject to the same strategy and tactics as war? The answer is, in my opinion, no. Competition is competition, and the General's words apply equally to any form of competition. I can find no occasion where adversaries have taken the field that the General's admonitions did not apply. Sun Tzu was a wise philosopher whose words, as relayed, transcend time and place; they are as applicable now as ever. You, rightly, note that mercantile trade is proportionate to naval might. I ascertain that neither is precipitous; that is, naval might is worthless without mercantile trade and mercantile trade shall not long survive without a navy to keep her shipping lanes open. Although it may seem that we have no quarrel, I posit that a naval force, fully funded by the mercantile trade (and passed to customers through price), can accomplish the same ends. What's more, that system passes the cost of keeping the shipping lanes open to the end users in proportion to their consumption of the goods passed. As you mentioned the army, it should be noted that, per the Constitution of the United States, that a standing army (and, by extension, her child the USAF) is authorized to the congress but, "no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years". Luckily, for your career and my term, congress has seen fit to authorize that appropriation. It is by no means a foregone conclusion, however, since the inception of our constitution, that a standing army is either a fit or desired component of the federal government. Out of respect, Sir, I shall ask you to revise your farcical ascertation that German would be the predominant language if the US had not entered the European theater in WWII. I have seen no credible evidence Germany was an occupying threat to the United States, nor that the Third Reich held any disposition toward codifying the German language, however, I stand to be corrected on both counts. Defeating fascists is hard to define. Before, during, and after WWII, fascists were the leading political influence in the United States. It was presumed, in the US, that a council of knowledgeable businessmen in a given field could determine both the product and price of all producers in that field. It failed, of course, miserably, but for economic reasons totally separate from any war, yet that is the enemy we still face each and every day. It is not, in my way of thinking, disingenuous to compare the current ideological conflict to the conflict continuing since the 7th century, that is, control of Jerusalem. I really, really understand why the vocal minority has always felt that way. I just can not. I have my own parts of the world I'm working to control. General Sun Tzu is firmly in my camp, regardless of whom else chooses to believe it. Brock Lorber (If I could use such a signature block it would be: Capt, USAFR) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Bud Williams Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 10:16 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO Mr Lorber, Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where someone has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it begs a response. Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The Art of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia." The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context of the times in which it was "written." Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected." War, not business/industry. Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it was written. Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities." Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern preparations for, and the conduct of, the war. Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:-- (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose every battle. No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever rose to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the rights of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those merchants. This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was not achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never set on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at that time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the valuable markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's finished products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what would eventually become the world's most powerful navy. The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea, and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" of pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other parts of the world). The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military. The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth (economic and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth. This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until American men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck (most notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will honor the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not speaking fluent German. Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan, Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, and media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world that you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are just as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected. You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor Day, a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the world's leading economy. Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families, their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper. I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. Fine. Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether you choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises the very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made this country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is your military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what it is trained to do. To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on." It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish, and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this country. Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve W" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 26, 2008
Andrew, I had never heard of Sugihara Chiune. That's fascinating stuff. I'll have to learn more. Not much I've ever read of the Japanese would make it seem they were capable of much compassion during the war. At least not the military. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED > >> I have seen no credible evidence Germany was an occupying threat to the >> United States, ... however, I stand to be corrected .... > > In Mein Kampf, while the US is not (as far as I remember) not specifically > mentioned, it is clear that Hitler viewed the Aryan race was the superior > and, again, if I remember correctly, Hitler directly states in Mein Kampf > the Aryans had the right to subjugate the inferior and bend them according > to the Aryan will. Of course, I'm assuming that the US and the rest of the > world would have been within Hitler's sights had he succeeded in Europe. > > A counterpoint argument to this is the 1942 agreement Hitler reached with > the Japanese to divide Asia amongst them: ergo, no world domination if > they were to share the world with the Japanese, so therefore the Americas > might have been left alone. > > But, as a counter-counterpoint, one could argue that Hitler was pretty > ticked with the Japanese hosting several thousands of Jewish refugees, > courtesy of Sugihara Chiune, a Japanese diplomat, who gave them visas to > enable their escape. (As a result of his actions Sugihara Chiune was > stripped of his post and served out the majority of his post-war life as a > salesman in Russia. Sugihara Chiune is also the only Japanese to have been > awarded the "Khasidei Umot ha-Olam" by the government of Israel.) > > Regards, > Andrew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com> > To: > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 12:58 AM > Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED > > > Col Williams: > > With respect, Sir, you misunderstand me. I, educated in the lower halls > of the building named for Fairchild, learned philosophical lessons that > invariably did not apply to the "real Air Force", but struck a chord in me > nonetheless that fueled my appreciation for me and my fellow man that I > carried into and applied with great success in the "real Air Force". Upon > graduation, I learned that the ubiquitous saw that "grads had no > applicable technical knowledge" was true, but found no more applicable > knowledge in technical training. > > I found (as I am sure you did) that the "real Air Force" required > experience in the "real Air Force", commanding Airmen, writing reports, > and advocating the application of limited resources in the way I divined > was the best way to complete the mission as outlined by those above me in > rank and position. What never failed, however, was the philosophical > premise upon which my service was based. > > It is rare, even among the officer corps, to find someone with an > appreciation for the words of Sun Tzu that you obviously command. My > knowledge of the General's words come from reading and re-reading his > words, and striving to apply them to every endeavor, even if I have to > fashion myself as the opposition - certainly anyone can imagine their > worst enemy as themselves. I did not quote the General lightly, nor, I > believe, out of context. > > You did not presume that I am anti-war, or pacifist in common parlance, > and for that I thank you. However, you did suggest that I quoted the > General in an anti-war context. You also suggest that Sun Tzu's sayings, > as written, have no place in competitive endeavors other than war. I ask, > Colonel, is war such a unique animal to be treated as a separate class > other than competitive? Is not the competition between Company A and > Company B subject to the same strategy and tactics as war? > > The answer is, in my opinion, no. Competition is competition, and the > General's words apply equally to any form of competition. I can find no > occasion where adversaries have taken the field that the General's > admonitions did not apply. Sun Tzu was a wise philosopher whose words, as > relayed, transcend time and place; they are as applicable now as ever. > > You, rightly, note that mercantile trade is proportionate to naval might. > I ascertain that neither is precipitous; that is, naval might is worthless > without mercantile trade and mercantile trade shall not long survive > without a navy to keep her shipping lanes open. Although it may seem that > we have no quarrel, I posit that a naval force, fully funded by the > mercantile trade (and passed to customers through price), can accomplish > the same ends. What's more, that system passes the cost of keeping the > shipping lanes open to the end users in proportion to their consumption of > the goods passed. > > As you mentioned the army, it should be noted that, per the Constitution > of the United States, that a standing army (and, by extension, her child > the USAF) is authorized to the congress but, "no Appropriation of Money to > that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years". Luckily, for your > career and my term, congress has seen fit to authorize that appropriation. > It is by no means a foregone conclusion, however, since the inception of > our constitution, that a standing army is either a fit or desired > component of the federal government. > > Out of respect, Sir, I shall ask you to revise your farcical ascertation > that German would be the predominant language if the US had not entered > the European theater in WWII. I have seen no credible evidence Germany > was an occupying threat to the United States, nor that the Third Reich > held any disposition toward codifying the German language, however, I > stand to be corrected on both counts. > > Defeating fascists is hard to define. Before, during, and after WWII, > fascists were the leading political influence in the United States. It > was presumed, in the US, that a council of knowledgeable businessmen in a > given field could determine both the product and price of all producers in > that field. It failed, of course, miserably, but for economic reasons > totally separate from any war, yet that is the enemy we still face each > and every day. > > It is not, in my way of thinking, disingenuous to compare the current > ideological conflict to the conflict continuing since the 7th century, > that is, control of Jerusalem. I really, really understand why the vocal > minority has always felt that way. I just can not. I have my own parts > of the world I'm working to control. > > General Sun Tzu is firmly in my camp, regardless of whom else chooses to > believe it. > > Brock Lorber > (If I could use such a signature block it would be: > Capt, USAFR) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Bud Williams > Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 10:16 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO > > > > Mr Lorber, > > Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where > someone > has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it > begs > a response. > > Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's > attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The > Art > of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia." > > The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and > teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to > apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context > of the times in which it was "written." > > Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. > > It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. > Hence > it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected." > > War, not business/industry. > > Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble > attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it > was written. > > Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to > take > the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so > good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy > it, > to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy > them. > > Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; > supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without > fighting. > > Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the > next > best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in > order > is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all > is to besiege walled cities." > > Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was > written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if > you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a > serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If > however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern > preparations for, and the conduct of, the war. > > Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune > upon his army:-- > > (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the > fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army. > > (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a > kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This > causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. > > (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through > ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. > This > shakes the confidence of the soldiers. > > But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come > from > the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, > and > flinging victory away. > > Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: > > (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. > > (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. > > (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all > its > ranks. > > (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. > > (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by > the > sovereign. > > Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not > fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the > enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know > neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." > > I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose > every battle. > > No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a > nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever > rose > to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the > rights > of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those > merchants. > > This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was > not > achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic > facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never > set > on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at > that > time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He > wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea > lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the > valuable > markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's > finished > products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with > Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what > would eventually become the world's most powerful navy. > > The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the > vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains > that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea, > and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" > of > pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other > parts of the world). > > The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military. > > The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth > (economic > and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth. > > This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it > was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to > protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex > helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the > harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that > potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but > those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until > American > men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck > (most > notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the > Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will > honor > the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not > speaking fluent German. > > Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan, > Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, > and > media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world > that > you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are > just > as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get > markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected. > > You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor > Day, > a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the > world's leading economy. > > Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families, > their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to > provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper. > > I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. > Fine. > Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one > last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether > you > choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say > it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack > on > Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by > Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises > the > very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made > this > country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our > wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is > your > military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military > that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what > it > is trained to do. > > To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly > acquainted > with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of > carrying it on." > > It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new > country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish, > and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly > unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this > country. > > Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock > Lorber > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED > > You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your > accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the > owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the > true > heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN > COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, > airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to > safeguard > human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu > noted in The Art of War: > > "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; > supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without > fighting." > > By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where > the > grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence > even > as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of > a > failure of governments to achieve excellence. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of > yourtcfg(at)aol.com > Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED > > lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served > and > are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering > airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge > all > of you to do the same.? jb > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve W" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: INTERESTING DELIVERY
Date: May 26, 2008
Any pics? That trip would have been fun to follow along..... Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 12:56 PM Subject: Commander-List: INTERESTING DELIVERY HI KIDS As some of you know, I deliver all types of airplanes all over the country, even around the world. I recently delivered a 500B from Commander Services, Stockton CA to Central Air in Kansas city. The trip started with he delivery of a new American Champion Scout, on 31" tundra tires, from Caldwell ID to Moab UT. I checked the new owner out (great fun flying in the spectacular canyons!), then flew the "crowd killer" to CA. The 500B was just out of an extensive annual and had a new long shrike nose as well as the Central Air boost pump mod. The boost pumps are removed from the fuel sump and installed in the engine nacelle, great improvement!! John Vormbaum had already test flown it so when I got there it was "squawk free". I blasted off and headed east, into a headwind, yep, a headwind eastbound, lucky me!! Crossing the Sierra Nevada range was spectacular. Still plenty of snow. The weather deteriorated as I pushed east. Through Utah, I had to do a bit of unexpected scud running. The clouds became broken again, but flying in the haze and mist was putting some airframe ice on. it is pretty unusual to be VFR and icing?? It has only happened a few times in all my flying. Still into a headwind, I pressed on to Moab UT, where just the previous day I had flown the Scout. I fueled ($7.50 per gallon, self serve!! Yikes!!). I then crossed the Rockies. Crossing in a straight line ment flying at 14K over 13,999' mountains for about an hour and a half. Crossing high mountains in a normally aspirated twin, means flying it like a single. If an engine fails, you will land the airplane. Even the valley floors were well above the single engine ceiling. I kept a close watch on roads, valley floors and even frozen lakes as a possible landing spot. The airplane however worked perfectly and I was soon looking at the great plains. It was then things began to get very interesting. The forecast had been for only minor, widespread T showers that day. The next day was to be (and was) much worse. I was 12 hours ahead of the storms that just ripped Colorado!!&n bsp; The weather forecast was way off (funny how people believe that we can predict what the weather will be like in 100 years i.e. "global warming" when we cant predict, with any accuracy, what the weather will be in a week, or even tomorrow!! amazing) anyway. All I could see in front of the airplane was water from the sky and lighting. I made a half hearted attempt to work my way through it, but quickly gave up. The storm scope in the airplane had so many lightning strikes it looked like it was in the test mode!! I called center and was told that the unexpected development was 180 miles to my south and 100 miles north, moving north a 40kts. I turned north and enjoyed the first and only tailwinds of the trip, 235kts. I could see lots of lightning both on the storm scope and out the window but keep a distanced and finally was able to turn back east. The speed immediately went from 235kts to 119kts!! I had used up my fuel reserves and made a precautionary fuel stop in N.Platt NE just to be sure. Then on to KC without incident landing a little after midnight. There are few things more beautiful than flying over a big city, in a Commander, at night. Breathtaking!! John Towner runs a first class freight operation there and I spent a comfortable night in his "bunk house" to be awakened the next morning by the loudest clap of thunder I ever hear. The rain on the hangar roof was so loud I could not use my cell phone. The storm had made it to KC. man was I glad to be on the ground!! Just another day in the life of a "Delivery Dog"!! jb ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve W" <steve2(at)sover.net>
Subject: Re: THOSE WHO SERVED
Date: May 26, 2008
I always liked Lao Tzu, better than Sun Tzu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brock Lorber" <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 3:58 AM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED Col Williams: With respect, Sir, you misunderstand me. I, educated in the lower halls of the building named for Fairchild, learned philosophical lessons that invariably did not apply to the "real Air Force", but struck a chord in me nonetheless that fueled my appreciation for me and my fellow man that I carried into and applied with great success in the "real Air Force". Upon graduation, I learned that the ubiquitous saw that "grads had no applicable technical knowledge" was true, but found no more applicable knowledge in technical training. I found (as I am sure you did) that the "real Air Force" required experience in the "real Air Force", commanding Airmen, writing reports, and advocating the application of limited resources in the way I divined was the best way to complete the mission as outlined by those above me in rank and position. What never failed, however, was the philosophical premise upon which my service was based. It is rare, even among the officer corps, to find someone with an appreciation for the words of Sun Tzu that you obviously command. My knowledge of the General's words come from reading and re-reading his words, and striving to apply them to every endeavor, even if I have to fashion myself as the opposition - certainly anyone can imagine their worst enemy as themselves. I did not quote the General lightly, nor, I believe, out of context. You did not presume that I am anti-war, or pacifist in common parlance, and for that I thank you. However, you did suggest that I quoted the General in an anti-war context. You also suggest that Sun Tzu's sayings, as written, have no place in competitive endeavors other than war. I ask, Colonel, is war such a unique animal to be treated as a separate class other than competitive? Is not the competition between Company A and Company B subject to the same strategy and tactics as war? The answer is, in my opinion, no. Competition is competition, and the General's words apply equally to any form of competition. I can find no occasion where adversaries have taken the field that the General's admonitions did not apply. Sun Tzu was a wise philosopher whose words, as relayed, transcend time and place; they are as applicable now as ever. You, rightly, note that mercantile trade is proportionate to naval might. I ascertain that neither is precipitous; that is, naval might is worthless without mercantile trade and mercantile trade shall not long survive without a navy to keep her shipping lanes open. Although it may seem that we have no quarrel, I posit that a naval force, fully funded by the mercantile trade (and passed to customers through price), can accomplish the same ends. What's more, that system passes the cost of keeping the shipping lanes open to the end users in proportion to their consumption of the goods passed. As you mentioned the army, it should be noted that, per the Constitution of the United States, that a standing army (and, by extension, her child the USAF) is authorized to the congress but, "no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years". Luckily, for your career and my term, congress has seen fit to authorize that appropriation. It is by no means a foregone conclusion, however, since the inception of our constitution, that a standing army is either a fit or desired component of the federal government. Out of respect, Sir, I shall ask you to revise your farcical ascertation that German would be the predominant language if the US had not entered the European theater in WWII. I have seen no credible evidence Germany was an occupying threat to the United States, nor that the Third Reich held any disposition toward codifying the German language, however, I stand to be corrected on both counts. Defeating fascists is hard to define. Before, during, and after WWII, fascists were the leading political influence in the United States. It was presumed, in the US, that a council of knowledgeable businessmen in a given field could determine both the product and price of all producers in that field. It failed, of course, miserably, but for economic reasons totally separate from any war, yet that is the enemy we still face each and every day. It is not, in my way of thinking, disingenuous to compare the current ideological conflict to the conflict continuing since the 7th century, that is, control of Jerusalem. I really, really understand why the vocal minority has always felt that way. I just can not. I have my own parts of the world I'm working to control. General Sun Tzu is firmly in my camp, regardless of whom else chooses to believe it. Brock Lorber (If I could use such a signature block it would be: Capt, USAFR) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Bud Williams Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 10:16 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO Mr Lorber, Ordinarily I do not respond to posts in any given list, except where someone has asked for help or has made a comment that is so irritating that it begs a response. Your knowledge of Sun Tzu apparently comes from some misguided author's attempt to rationalize The Art of War into every day life, such as "The Art of War for Business," or worse, "Wikipedia." The Art of War is a compilation of a Chinese General's thoughts and teachings that were taught to emperors and military leaders. To attempt to apply this work to everyday life is only valid when taken into the context of the times in which it was "written." Sun Tzu said: "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected." War, not business/industry. Your earlier quote of the Art of War was taken out of context in a feeble attempt to justify your suggestion. Let us look at the context in which it was written. Sun Tzu said: "In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities." Your misuse of Sun Tzu's words taken out of the context in which it was written implies that Sun Tzu says we should never go to war. In truth, if you truly study and understand Sun Tzu, that is NOT the case. War is a serious undertaking, not to be taken lightly. That is his main point. If however, war is to be undertaken, then he outlines "rules" to govern preparations for, and the conduct of, the war. Sun Tzu said: "There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:-- (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." I suggest to you sir, that if we go by your suggestion, then we will lose every battle. No great nation, and by this I will use your implied definition that a nation is great because of the mercantile richness of the nation, ever rose to that status without a strong military that was able to protect the rights of those merchants and to open up and maintain the markets for those merchants. This country was born with a rich potential for greatness, but this was not achieved until Mahan, a naval Captain, was able to articulate the historic facts that no great nation (and at the time of his writing the sun never set on the English Empire, the richest and most powerful nation on earth at that time) was able to achieve greatness without first commanding the sea. He wasn't talking about "owning" the ocean, but being able to protect the sea lanes through which merchant ships traversed thereby providing the valuable markets necessary to obtain new resources and to sell the nation's finished products. Because of Captain Mahan's influence in Congress and with Presidents, most notable Teddy Roosevelt, America started building what would eventually become the world's most powerful navy. The world has evolved since Mahan wrote his seminal work, but despite the vast amount of cargo that is moved through the air, the fact still remains that most of the world's (to include the US) goods are still moved by sea, and it is STILL our navy that ensures that sea lines are open and "free" of pirates (and piracy still exists in the straits off Indonesia and in other parts of the world). The Roman Empire existed and flourished only because of its military. The great city-state of Athens was great not because of it wealth (economic and intellectual), but because its navy enabled it to spread it wealth. This country would not enjoy the world leadership position it is in if it was not for its military that fought two world wars on foreign soil to protect the rights we believe in. Yes, our military-industrial complex helped us to defeat the Nazis and the Fascists, but again, that was the harnessing of the potential that country possessed. We were utilizing that potential in the Lend-Lease Program with England and the Soviet Union, but those countries were unable to turn the tide of Nazi Germany until American men and women in uniform entered the conflict. It is only by dumb luck (most notably Hitler's decisions to not invade England and to instead invade the Soviet Union) and the efforts of a few courageous men (and here I will honor the British and American airmen in the Battle of Britain) that we are not speaking fluent German. Yes, this country was made great because of people such as JP Morgan, Westinghouse, William Randolph Hearst and other bankers, industrialists, and media moguls. But I repeat: you can build all the widgets in the world that you want, but if you don't have a market for the widgets, then you are just as poor as those who are unable to build the widgets, and you don't get markets without a military to ensure that your interests are protected. You want to honor business men and women? By all means do so...on Labor Day, a day dedicated to the men and women who broke their backs to build the world's leading economy. Memorial Day is a day to honor those who have sacrificed their families, their wealth, potential wealth, and for some, their very lives in order to provide a safe and secure environment in which to work, sell, and prosper. I realize you differ in your opinion as to the importance of this day. Fine. Your military has protected your right to do so. I leave you with this one last thought: we are currently in a war for our very existence, whether you choose to believe so or not. You may go hide your head in the sand and say it is not so just as Charles Lindbergh and others did prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declaration of war against the US by Germany. But the reality is that we are fighting an enemy that despises the very life you hold so dear. Honor the business men and women who "made this country great?" We are hated and attacked BECAUSE we are so wealthy. Our wealth is not "winning" this war; it is not destroying our enemy. It is your military that is taking on this mantle of burden, and it is this military that will ultimately win out, providing you allow the military to do what it is trained to do. To quote Sun Tzu one last time: "It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on." It is fortunate that our forefathers had the insight to ensure this new country they created was able to protect itself so that it might flourish, and that our great grandfathers had the wisdom to recognize the distinctly unique contributions our military has made to the greatness of this country. Rae A. "Bud" Williams, Col, USAF (ret) -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 PM Subject: RE: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED You're welcome. However, Tuesday, please thank your grocer, your accountant, your lawyer, your mechanic, your barber, your pharmacist, the owner of the corner gas station, butcher, cashier, etc. These are the true heroes that prove, each and every day, that peaceful cooperation, EVEN IN COMPETITION, yields the riches of the world. While soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines may, at least for the time being, be called to safeguard human wealth, they do so at the cost of human wealth and life. As Sun Tzu noted in The Art of War: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." By that definition, the soldier, sailor, airman, and marine fails where the grocer and mechanic excel. Please, celebrate their supreme excellence even as you thank the soldier that is required to answer his calling because of a failure of governments to achieve excellence. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sun 5/25/2008 6:10 PM Subject: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED lets all take a moment and offer a prayer for all those? who have served and are serving our great nation.? I? travel a lot on the airline delivering airplanes and ALWAYS tell EVERY soldier I see "Thank you".? I challenge all of you to do the same.? jb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bruce Campbell <brcamp(at)windows.microsoft.com>
Date: May 26, 2008
Subject: THOSE WHO SERVED
The german missle program included an ICBM phase (the A9/A10) which was planned before the first missile left the ground. Components of the first batch of A10s were found at Nordhausen when it was liberated by the allies. Had Heisenburg succeeded in the bomb effort (which probably only failed because of the allies destroying the heavy water plant in Norway put the project back at a critical time, when the early work on charaterising plutonium was happening), it would have been a nuclear tipped ICBM in 1946. The messerschmidt me264 bomber project first flew in 1943, but the project was requested before American entry into the war, in the later 30's before even lend lease. The Japanese (a german ally) had active plans until the battle of midway to occupy Hawaii, then use it and the Aleutians (alaska, also occupied American territory) to serve as the base for an invasion of the American west coast. Hilter made it extremely plain that he felt that blacks were an even more "degenerate" bloodline than us jewish folks, and a bigger threat to "Aryans". The entire position of the Nazi ideology pointed to America as fundamentally an enemy of his concept of blood purity by its very existence. And there was more than a small group of Americans (including the likes of Charles Lindbergh and Joseph Kennedy) who were for the united states either remaining aloof, or even joining the war on the german side. Lindburgh's loyalties were so much and object of concern that he was denied a security clearance and kept away from the European theater during the war. I suspect had Germany won, they would have settled with the Japanese as soon as the birthrate and gas chambers could handle them. Remember, "Heute Deutchland, Morgen die Welt!". Doesn't really sound subtle to me. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget(at)telus.net Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [BULK] Commander-List: THOSE WHO SERVED > I have seen no credible evidence Germany was an occupying threat to the > United States, ... however, I stand to be corrected .... In Mein Kampf, while the US is not (as far as I remember) not specifically mentioned, it is clear that Hitler viewed the Aryan race was the superior and, again, if I remember correctly, Hitler directly states in Mein Kampf the Aryans had the right to subjugate the inferior and bend them according to the Aryan will. Of course, I'm assuming that the US and the rest of the


April 25, 2008 - May 26, 2008

Commander-Archive.digest.vol-da