Commander-Archive.digest.vol-dq

January 29, 2010 - April 26, 2010



          Barry,
      
          What is the present condition of the airframe? Does it have engines?
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
          From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry 
      Collman
          Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:54 AM
          To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
          Subject: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander
      
      
          Hi All,
      
          I've recently found out that the Regional Military Museum, in Houma, 
      Louisiana are to acquire the last Commander in the USAF order for 15.
      
          It is a Model 680 (L-26C / U-4B) and was delivered to the USAF's 
      Military Air Transport Service, 1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air 
      Transport Squadron (Special Missions) on April 11th 1956.
      
          So, this is one of the Commanders almost certainly used by President 
      Eisenhower from time to time.
          I have given the Museum a suggestion as to a possible source of logs 
      that might tell if he actually had control on any flights.
      
          This Commander is being acquired from the Wedell-Williams Aviation 
      Museum, in Patterson, Louisiana.
      
          Originally, the wings were to be removed outboard of the nacelles in 
      order to road transport the aircraft to its new location.
          However, after I told them that is going to really spoil an 
      important piece of history as, being a one-piece spar they would have to 
      cut the wings off, they made enquiries and found that they cannot do 
      that, as they will not be the owner of the Commander.
          My records indicate it is owned by the State of Louisiana and was 
      donated by them to the Wedell-Williams Museum.
      
          The Regional Military Museum are therefore seeking some advice on 
      how to proceed with project and I feel sure we have people who can help.
          Anyone willing to help save a piece of history?
      
          This Commander's sister-ship is, of course, in the Presidential 
      hangar at the National Museum of the USAF, at the Wright-Patterson AFB 
      in Ohio, having been faithfully restored and officially unveiled and 
      dedicated there on July 16th 1998.
      
          Best Regards,
          Barry
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wiliam Boelte" <n55bz(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: An Eisenhower Commander
Date: Jan 29, 2010
I have seen the aircraft a number of times. I t was kept indoors in an air-conditioned building for at least 10 years and from the outside appears to be intact and complete. Unless the condition has deteriorated significantly I don't think that a ferry would be out of the realm of possibility. It is not more than two miles from the Intracoastal Canal which passes through Houma so movement by barge is also a possibility. Kindest regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2010 13:09 Subject: RE: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Barry, What is the present condition of the airframe? Does it have engines? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:54 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Hi All, I've recently found out that the Regional Military Museum, in Houma, Louisiana are to acquire the last Commander in the USAF order for 15. It is a Model 680 (L-26C / U-4B) and was delivered to the USAF's Military Air Transport Service, 1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport Squadron (Special Missions) on April 11th 1956. So, this is one of the Commanders almost certainly used by President Eisenhower from time to time. I have given the Museum a suggestion as to a possible source of logs that might tell if he actually had control on any flights. This Commander is being acquired from the Wedell-Williams Aviation Museum, in Patterson, Louisiana. Originally, the wings were to be removed outboard of the nacelles in order to road transport the aircraft to its new location. However, after I told them that is going to really spoil an important piece of history as, being a one-piece spar they would have to cut the wings off, they made enquiries and found that they cannot do that, as they will not be the owner of the Commander. My records indicate it is owned by the State of Louisiana and was donated by them to the Wedell-Williams Museum. The Regional Military Museum are therefore seeking some advice on how to proceed with project and I feel sure we have people who can help. Anyone willing to help save a piece of history? This Commander's sister-ship is, of course, in the Presidential hangar at the National Museum of the USAF, at the Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, having been faithfully restored and officially unveiled and dedicated there on July 16th 1998. Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: An Eisenhower Commander
Date: Jan 29, 2010
Hi Bill, Thanks for that and it's another possible solution for them. >From the FAA paperwork, the State of Louisiana bought it in September 1982 and I feel sure it was donated to the Wedell-Williams Museum almost straight away. I'm not sure when the photos I've got were taken, but the condition looks generally good and not a flat tire in sight. One photo shows evidence of some weather-induced 'streaking' on the rear fuselage, possibly from the de-ice boots, but other than that it looks clean, at least. Looking at the photo "properties", two of the shots were possibly taken in April 2006 and the other five in September 2007. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Wiliam Boelte To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander I have seen the aircraft a number of times. I t was kept indoors in an air-conditioned building for at least 10 years and from the outside appears to be intact and complete. Unless the condition has deteriorated significantly I don't think that a ferry would be out of the realm of possibility. It is not more than two miles from the Intracoastal Canal which passes through Houma so movement by barge is also a possibility. Kindest regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2010 13:09 Subject: RE: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Barry, What is the present condition of the airframe? Does it have engines? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:54 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Hi All, I've recently found out that the Regional Military Museum, in Houma, Louisiana are to acquire the last Commander in the USAF order for 15. It is a Model 680 (L-26C / U-4B) and was delivered to the USAF's Military Air Transport Service, 1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport Squadron (Special Missions) on April 11th 1956. So, this is one of the Commanders almost certainly used by President Eisenhower from time to time. I have given the Museum a suggestion as to a possible source of logs that might tell if he actually had control on any flights. This Commander is being acquired from the Wedell-Williams Aviation Museum, in Patterson, Louisiana. Originally, the wings were to be removed outboard of the nacelles in order to road transport the aircraft to its new location. However, after I told them that is going to really spoil an important piece of history as, being a one-piece spar they would have to cut the wings off, they made enquiries and found that they cannot do that, as they will not be the owner of the Commander. My records indicate it is owned by the State of Louisiana and was donated by them to the Wedell-Williams Museum. The Regional Military Museum are therefore seeking some advice on how to proceed with project and I feel sure we have people who can help. Anyone willing to help save a piece of history? This Commander's sister-ship is, of course, in the Presidential hangar at the National Museum of the USAF, at the Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, having been faithfully restored and officially unveiled and dedicated there on July 16th 1998. Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wiliam Boelte" <n55bz(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: An Eisenhower Commander
Date: Jan 29, 2010
The museum was originally on the grounds of the Patterson, LA (KPTA) airport. It was moved across the highway from the airport, but I don't know if the Commander was moved across the street. It may still be on the airport. The Patterson Airport was the location of an Aero Commander Distributorship owned by Bert Berry's family during the "Good Times". I live about 40 miles "up da bayou" so I can drop by if that would be helpful. Kindest regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2010 15:16 Subject: Re: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Well John . . . I had a similar thought ;-) Have no idea where the Museum is though, in relation to an airport. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 9:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander You know my attitude...put some band-aids on it and have Captain Jimbob FLY it to its new destination! Who wouldn't want to fly a piece of history...especially "Air Force One"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 1:04 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Hi John, From photos I have, that I think were taken outside the Wedell-Williams Museum, the aircraft is complete, with engines. Condition looks pretty good, but most of the fuselage is hidden by tarpaulin covers. The engines may have been similarly covered, but the tarpaulin may have been partially removed for the photos, I'm not sure. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 7:09 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Barry, What is the present condition of the airframe? Does it have engines? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:54 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Hi All, I've recently found out that the Regional Military Museum, in Houma, Louisiana are to acquire the last Commander in the USAF order for 15. It is a Model 680 (L-26C / U-4B) and was delivered to the USAF's Military Air Transport Service, 1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport Squadron (Special Missions) on April 11th 1956. So, this is one of the Commanders almost certainly used by President Eisenhower from time to time. I have given the Museum a suggestion as to a possible source of logs that might tell if he actually had control on any flights. This Commander is being acquired from the Wedell-Williams Aviation Museum, in Patterson, Louisiana. Originally, the wings were to be removed outboard of the nacelles in order to road transport the aircraft to its new location. However, after I told them that is going to really spoil an important piece of history as, being a one-piece spar they would have to cut the wings off, they made enquiries and found that they cannot do that, as they will not be the owner of the Commander. My records indicate it is owned by the State of Louisiana and was donated by them to the Wedell-Williams Museum. The Regional Military Museum are therefore seeking some advice on how to proceed with project and I feel sure we have people who can help. Anyone willing to help save a piece of history? This Commander's sister-ship is, of course, in the Presidential hangar at the National Museum of the USAF, at the Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, having been faithfully restored and officially unveiled and dedicated there on July 16th 1998. Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 29, 2010
Subject: Re: An Eisenhower Commander
I landed there on Sunday, its not there. The photos that Barry has are ones that I took. The museum was heavily damaged during the summer of 2005, Katrina and Rita Damage. That Commander sat outside on the ramp for at least a year or so while they constructed a new Museum on US 90 in Patterson. I think it was then towed to the site along with a F-4 Phantom. My brother lives there, I'll ask him to go by and take some newer photos. Bert In a message dated 1/29/2010 4:00:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, n55bz(at)cox.net writes: The museum was originally on the grounds of the Patterson, LA (KPTA) airport. It was moved across the highway from the airport, but I don't know if the Commander was moved across the street. It may still be on the airport. The Patterson Airport was the location of an Aero Commander Distributorship owned by Bert Berry's family during the "Good Times". I live about 40 miles "up da bayou" so I can drop by if that would be helpful. Kindest regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: _Barry Collman_ (mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk) Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2010 15:16 Subject: Re: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Well John . . . I had a similar thought ;-) Have no idea where the Museum is though, in relation to an airport. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: _John Vormbaum_ (mailto:john(at)vormbaum.com) Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 9:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander You know my attitude...put some band-aids on it and have Captain Jimbob FLY it to its new destination! Who wouldn't want to fly a piece of history...especially "Air Force One"? ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 1:04 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Hi John, >From photos I have, that I think were taken outside the Wedell-Williams Museum, the aircraft is complete, with engines. Condition looks pretty good, but most of the fuselage is hidden by tarpaulin covers. The engines may have been similarly covered, but the tarpaulin may have been partially removed for the photos, I'm not sure. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: _John Vormbaum_ (mailto:john(at)vormbaum.com) Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 7:09 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Barry, What is the present condition of the airframe? Does it have engines? ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:54 AM Subject: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Hi All, I've recently found out that the Regional Military Museum, in Houma, Louisiana are to acquire the last Commander in the USAF order for 15. It is a Model 680 (L-26C / U-4B) and was delivered to the USAF's Military Air Transport Service, 1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport Squadron (Special Missions) on April 11th 1956. So, this is one of the Commanders almost certainly used by President Eisenhower from time to time. I have given the Museum a suggestion as to a possible source of logs that might tell if he actually had control on any flights. This Commander is being acquired from the Wedell-Williams Aviation Museum, in Patterson, Louisiana. Originally, the wings were to be removed outboard of the nacelles in order to road transport the aircraft to its new location. However, after I told them that is going to really spoil an important piece of history as, being a one-piece spar they would have to cut the wings off, they made enquiries and found that they cannot do that, as they will not be the owner of the Commander. My records indicate it is owned by the State of Louisiana and was donated by them to the Wedell-Williams Museum. The Regional Military Museum are therefore seeking some advice on how to proceed with project and I feel sure we have people who can help. Anyone willing to help save a piece of history? This Commander's sister-ship is, of course, in the Presidential hangar at the National Museum of the USAF, at the Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, having been faithfully restored and officially unveiled and dedicated there on July 16th 1998. Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: An Eisenhower Commander
Date: Jan 29, 2010
Hi Bert, You know, I thought those photos came from yourself, but I must have been extra busy the day you sent them, as I "always" put who I received them from as either part of the file name or, using the "Properties" then "Summary" tabs, put something in the "Comments". So, apologies for that omission Bert. If your brother can get some up-to-date shots, that'll be great. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:06 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander I landed there on Sunday, its not there. The photos that Barry has are ones that I took. The museum was heavily damaged during the summer of 2005, Katrina and Rita Damage. That Commander sat outside on the ramp for at least a year or so while they constructed a new Museum on US 90 in Patterson. I think it was then towed to the site along with a F-4 Phantom. My brother lives there, I'll ask him to go by and take some newer photos. Bert In a message dated 1/29/2010 4:00:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, n55bz(at)cox.net writes: The museum was originally on the grounds of the Patterson, LA (KPTA) airport. It was moved across the highway from the airport, but I don't know if the Commander was moved across the street. It may still be on the airport. The Patterson Airport was the location of an Aero Commander Distributorship owned by Bert Berry's family during the "Good Times". I live about 40 miles "up da bayou" so I can drop by if that would be helpful. Kindest regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, 29 January, 2010 15:16 Subject: Re: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Well John . . . I had a similar thought ;-) Have no idea where the Museum is though, in relation to an airport. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 9:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander You know my attitude...put some band-aids on it and have Captain Jimbob FLY it to its new destination! Who wouldn't want to fly a piece of history...especially "Air Force One"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 1:04 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Hi John, From photos I have, that I think were taken outside the Wedell-Williams Museum, the aircraft is complete, with engines. Condition looks pretty good, but most of the fuselage is hidden by tarpaulin covers. The engines may have been similarly covered, but the tarpaulin may have been partially removed for the photos, I'm not sure. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 7:09 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Barry, What is the present condition of the airframe? Does it have engines? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:54 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: An Eisenhower Commander Hi All, I've recently found out that the Regional Military Museum, in Houma, Louisiana are to acquire the last Commander in the USAF order for 15. It is a Model 680 (L-26C / U-4B) and was delivered to the USAF's Military Air Transport Service, 1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport Squadron (Special Missions) on April 11th 1956. So, this is one of the Commanders almost certainly used by President Eisenhower from time to time. I have given the Museum a suggestion as to a possible source of logs that might tell if he actually had control on any flights. This Commander is being acquired from the Wedell-Williams Aviation Museum, in Patterson, Louisiana. Originally, the wings were to be removed outboard of the nacelles in order to road transport the aircraft to its new location. However, after I told them that is going to really spoil an important piece of history as, being a one-piece spar they would have to cut the wings off, they made enquiries and found that they cannot do that, as they will not be the owner of the Commander. My records indicate it is owned by the State of Louisiana and was donated by them to the Wedell-Williams Museum. The Regional Military Museum are therefore seeking some advice on how to proceed with project and I feel sure we have people who can help. Anyone willing to help save a piece of history? This Commander's sister-ship is, of course, in the Presidential hangar at the National Museum of the USAF, at the Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, having been faithfully restored and officially unveiled and dedicated there on July 16th 1998. Best Regards, Barry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Intersting video
Date: Jan 30, 2010
Folks, Please let me know if this streamed fluidly. Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: RE: Interesting video
Date: Jan 30, 2010
Sorry, here it is. http://www.thenicoshow.tv/TVShow/tvplayer.asp?playlist=playlist_GB_communism .xml _____ From: nico css [mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:51 AM Subject: Intersting video Folks, Please let me know if this streamed fluidly. Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Moshluk" <gmosh(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Interesting video
Date: Jan 30, 2010
Nico, Streams just fine BUT too late for me; I'm already addicted - but not indoctrinated - (to Glen Beck that is). He's the first show I 'TiVo' every night! If it weren't for people like Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Laura Inghram, Fox News et. el.; suburban American would already resemble not much more than a subdivision of Stalags! Glen has the absolute best informative program on American cable TV and deserves the recognition he's received. Second place to Oprah...please! We are absolutely on the precipice of losing the American experiment to the likes of an admitted out of the closet "Bolshevik". (Did you catch Obama's Freudian slip in front of the Republicans made just yesterday, "I'm not a Bolshevik"...oh yes you are Barry)? November 2010 will either make or break America as us old schooler's have known her. I hope the rest of the Commander folks take the time to tune in to this video. Voices like Glen and the others have done those who understand what is at stake a great service! Cheers, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: 'nico' Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 8:21 AM Subject: Commander-List: RE: Interesting video Sorry, here it is. http://www.thenicoshow.tv/TVShow/tvplayer.asp?playlist=playlist_GB_comm unism.xml ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: nico css [mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com] Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:51 AM To: 'nico' Subject: Intersting video Folks, Please let me know if this streamed fluidly. Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Intersting video
Date: Jan 30, 2010
Nico, Can't find the attachment. Moe N680RR 680Fp From: nico css Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:50 AM Subject: Commander-List: Intersting video Folks, Please let me know if this streamed fluidly. Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Intersting video
Date: Jan 30, 2010
If you haven't seen it yet, Moe, here it is again. http://www.thenicoshow.tv/TVShow/tvplayer.asp?playlist=playlist_GB_communism .xml Thank you for the feedback, guys. I am disappointed with my current hosting platform since almost everyone reported that the first play-through is very choppy, but a second time through is without a hitch. That's not acceptable. It has to go the first time. I appreciate the time you take to watch and report back. I'll explain later how that may be useful to some and at least entertaining to most. Thanks very much. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 8:49 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Intersting video Nico, Can't find the attachment. Moe N680RR 680Fp From: nico css <mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:50 AM Subject: Commander-List: Intersting video Folks, Please let me know if this streamed fluidly. Thanks Nico href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Subject: N70QT is on ebay
Date: Jan 31, 2010
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Aero-Commander-680F-Parts-Only_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3efc60dfb4QQitemZ270522179508QQptZMotorsQ5fAircraft#ht_1702wt_553 above it a link to the auction of a 680FP, MR RPM. She has been cut up. Sorry to see her go. Mason, you do not need to go see these photos. Viewer discretion is advised. These are very ugly photos. I hope these parts keep other Twin Commanders flying. Tylor Hall ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: N70QT is on ebay
Date: Jan 31, 2010
Breaking up something valuable, such as N70QT, has always triggered my memory of an incident that occurred in South Africa 20 or so years ago. N70QT's story is different: the mishap already inflicted the necessary damage on the plane to make the first strike to break her up easier. It was a typical summer thunder storm, which poured rain and sizable hail onto everything in the city. Insurance claims of damaged vehicles and property poured into insurance companies. Also, a Ferrari V12 Boxer that suffered extensive body damage. A huge repair bill stared at the insurance assessor as he looked the car over. Then, his experience tugged at his instinct. He told the insured that he is not qualified to assess such an impressive automobile and would like him to bring it into their facilities to have it properly assessed, Columbo-style, if you know what I mean. Once the car was in their workshops, the insurance assessors photographed the entire body of the Ferrari from all angles and a profile shot from the top. Painstakingly, they connected the dents that the hail punched into the body skin. Then, they made a startling discovery confirming the assessor's instinct. There were circular patterns in the dent arrangement on the body. It turned out that the insured had the Ferrari safely parked inside his garage at the time of the storm (who wouldn't?) and after the hailstorm had come and gone, seeing the wide-spread damage it caused, he set out with a round-headed hammer covered with some soft material, and started beating the Ferrari so as to have the insurance company pay it off and repair it for him. Needless to say, he ended up being stuck with the repair bill and a criminal charge of fraud plus a whole slew of other charges. As I said at the beginning of this story, it always bothers me how someone could inflict the first blow to cause damage to something that's in perfectly good working order. Once the fraud was underway, it was easy to strike the next blow and the next and the next. But the first one. That's the one that gets me. Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:17 PM Subject: Commander-List: N70QT is on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Aero-Commander-680F-Parts-Only_W0QQcmdZV iewItemQQhashZitem3efc60dfb4QQitemZ270522179508QQptZMotorsQ5fAircraft#ht_170 2wt_553 above it a link to the auction of a 680FP, MR RPM. She has been cut up. Sorry to see her go. Mason, you do not need to go see these photos. Viewer discretion is advised. These are very ugly photos. I hope these parts keep other Twin Commanders flying. Tylor Hall ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 2010
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Insurance
Has anyone in the group ever thought of or did a Group Insurance plan? With our numbers, we probably can pull it off.=0ATCFG...=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Elephant park
Date: Feb 05, 2010
The Addo Elephant Park South Africa, 2001 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTzIrmnuufA Enjoy Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2010
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Fw: F16 vs. C-130
=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Forwarded Message ----=0AFrom: Joseph Horton <jesterforlife(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: Donnie Rose <aqu adiver99(at)yahoo.com>; Richard Berger ; "Dillon, Robert E CI V USA AMC" ; tim adams ; bill du nn ; Thomas Bertuccini ; Barry S eibel MD ; William O. Bank ; "Kerber, Charles" ; Chuck Kerber ; Dr. Chopko ; Damon Patterson ; David Goltra ; Laurence D. Cromwell ; Daniel Nix ; "Emanuel Kanal, MD, FACR, FISMRM" ; FRED MCCORKLE ; forbes mathews ; Marcelino Gorospe ; G lenn Daugherty ; John Trotti ; "Patel, Sunil J." ; Thomas Owens ; Tom Owens ; R. Sean Pakbaz ; Jeremy Young =0ASent: Fri, Feb ruary 5, 2010 6:31:28 PM=0ASubject: F16 vs. C-130=0A=0A=0A=0AYou've probabl y seen this already , but just in case....=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-=0A> -=0A>Subject:FW: F16 vs. C-130=0A>-- =0A>F16 vs. C-130-=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>A C-130 was lumbering along when a cocky F-16 flashed by.-- -=0A>>The jet jockey decided to show off.---=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>>>T he fighter jock told the C-130 pilot, 'watch this!' and promptly--- =0A>>>>went into a barrel roll followed by a steep climb. He then finished ---=0A>>>>with a sonic boom as he broke the sound barrier. The F-16 p ilot---=0A>>>>asked the C-130 pilot what he thought of that?--- =0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>=0A>>The C-130 pilot said, 'That was impressive, but wat ch this!'---=0A>>The C-130 droned along for about 5 minutes and then the C-130---=0A>>pilot came back on and said: 'What did you think of that?'---=0A>>Puzzled, the F-16 pilot asked, 'What the heck did you d o?'--=0A>>The C-130 pilot chuckled. 'I stood up, stretched my legs, wal ked--=0A>>to the back,-took a leak,--then got a cup of coffee and a--=0A>>cinnamon roll.'-=0A>>=0A>>When you are young & foolish --s peed & flash may seem a good thing !!!---=0A>>When you get older & sm arter - comfort & dull is not such a bad thing !!!---=0A>>=0A>>Us old er folks understand this one.=0A-=0A-=0A. =0A=0A_______________________ _________=0A=0AHotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. =0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0AQui tacet consentire videtur.=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net>
Subject: The meaning of disaster
Date: Feb 06, 2010
Robert Mugabe was speaking to a class of Zimbabwe schoolchildren one day when the topic of 'disaster' was raised. "Children," Mugabe said, "Who can tell me: what is a disaster?" Sipho put up his hand. "Please Mr President," he said, "if a car came crashing through the school, that would be a disaster." "No," Mugabe replied. "That would be an accident." Thandi put up her hand. "Please Mr President," she said, "if a bus full of children drove off a cliff and they all died, would that be a disaster?" Mugabe shook his head. "Closer," he said. "But that would be a 'great loss', not a disaster." Finally, Themba put up his hand. "Mr President, if you were flying in Palmer One [the Zimbabwe presidential jet] and you died when it was shot down by friendly fire, I think that would be a disaster." "Yes!" Mugabe said. "You are quite correct: of course it would be. Now can you tell the class why it would be a disaster?" "Well," said Themba, "I don't think it would be an accident, and it wouldn't be a great loss either..." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wiliam Boelte" <n55bz(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: F16 vs. C-130
Date: Mar 06, 2010
Here is another which has been around for a while. Bill Subject: The Gospel According to St. Fresnel of the Miraculous Lens This should stir the memory! As the friend who sent it to me said, "this should dredge up some memories. I hadn't seen it in quite awhile, thought I would send it on. Enjoy! Deadly The Gospel According to St. Fresnel of the Miraculous Lens Chapter One, Versus One through Five In the Beginning, God created the heavens, and the Aircraft Carrier, and the seas upon which to float it; and yet there was complete Darkness upon the face of the earth. And, as we traveled there came to us, as a voice out of the darkness, an angel of the Lord, saying, "On centerline, on Glideslope, three quarters of a mile, call the ball." I reflected upon these words, for I was still yet engulfed in complete darkness. With deep feeling and doubt overwhelming my countenance, I glanceth towards my companion at my right hand and saith, "What seeth thou, trusted friend?", and there was a great silence. Gazing in a searching manner and seeing naught, I raised my voice saying, "Clara..." And God spoke to me, and He said, "You're low..power". As the Lord saith, so shall it be, and I added power; and lo, the ball riseth up onto the bottom of the mirror. But it was a tainted red glow, and surely indicateth Satan's own influence. And God spoke to me again saying, "Power.Power..Power!!!!....fly the ball." And lo, the ball riseth up and off the top of the lens, and the great darkness was upon me. And the voice of the Angel came to me again, saying, "When comfortable, twelve hundred feet, turn downwind." Whereupon I wandered in the darkness, without direction, for surely the ships radar was beset by demons, and there was great confusion cast upon CATCC, and there was a great silence in which there was no comfort to be found. Even my tacan needle spinneth..and lo, there was chaos; my trusted companion weepeth quietly unto himself and from close behind I heard weeping and gnashing of teeth of our flock. There was a great turmoil within my cockpit for a multitude of serpents had crept therein. And though we wandered, as if by Providence I found myself within that Holy Corridor, and at twelve hundred feet, among my brethren seeking refuge; and the voice of the Angel of the Lord came to me again, asking of me my needles, and I raised my voice saying, "Up and centered", and the voice answered, "Roger, fly your needles.." I reflected upon these words, and I raised my voice in prayer, for though my gyro indicateth it not so, surely my aircraft hath been turned upside down. Verily, as Beelzebub surely wrestled with me, a voice, that of my trusted companion, saith to me calmly, "Friend...fly thy needles, and find comfort in the Lord." And lo, with deep trembling in my heart, I did, and He guideth me to centered glideslope and centerline, though I know not how it came to be. And out of the great darkness, God spoke to me again saying, "Roger ball" for now I had faith. And though the ball began to rise at the in close position, my right hand was full of the Spirit, and it squeeketh off power and as in a great miracle my plane stoppeth upon the flight deck, for it hath caught the four wire which God in his infinite wisdom hath placed thirty feet further down the flight deck than the three wire. And thus bathed in a golden radiance from above, our pilgrimage was at an end, and my spirit was truly reborn. And as I basked in the rapture, God spoketh to me one final time, and He saith, "Lights out on deck.." ----- Original Message ----- From: Donnie Rose To: hschwab(at)bham.rr.com ; jwrose(at)hctc.net ; lancerose(at)starband.net ; commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 06 February, 2010 11:16 Subject: Commander-List: Fw: F16 vs. C-130 Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Joseph Horton <jesterforlife(at)gmail.com> To: Donnie Rose ; Richard Berger ; "Dillon, Robert E CIV USA AMC" ; tim adams ; bill dunn ; Thomas Bertuccini ; Barry Seibel MD ; William O. Bank ; "Kerber, Charles" ; Chuck Kerber ; Dr. Chopko ; Damon Patterson ; David Goltra ; Laurence D. Cromwell ; Daniel Nix ; "Emanuel Kanal, MD, FACR, FISMRM" ; FRED MCCORKLE ; forbes mathews ; Marcelino Gorospe ; Glenn Daugherty ; John Trotti ; "Patel, Sunil J." ; Thomas Owens ; Tom Owens ; R. Sean Pakbaz ; Jeremy Young Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 6:31:28 PM Subject: F16 vs. C-130 You've probably seen this already , but just in case.... Subject: FW: F16 vs. C-130 F16 vs. C-130 A C-130 was lumbering along when a cocky F-16 flashed by. The jet jockey decided to show off. The fighter jock told the C-130 pilot, 'watch this!' and promptly went into a barrel roll followed by a steep climb. He then finished with a sonic boom as he broke the sound barrier. The F-16 pilot asked the C-130 pilot what he thought of that? The C-130 pilot said, 'That was impressive, but watch this!' The C-130 droned along for about 5 minutes and then the C-130 pilot came back on and said: 'What did you think of that?' Puzzled, the F-16 pilot asked, 'What the heck did you do?' The C-130 pilot chuckled. 'I stood up, stretched my legs, walked to the back, took a leak, then got a cup of coffee and a cinnamon roll.' When you are young & foolish - speed & flash may seem a good thing !!! When you get older & smarter - comfort & dull is not such a bad thing !!! Us older folks understand this one. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. -- Qui tacet consentire videtur. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Aero Commander Air Force One in Patterson, LA
Date: Feb 06, 2010
From: bertberry1(at)aol.com
Hey Guys, My Brother drove by the new location for the Wendell Williams Mueseum ther other day and asked about SN 317-12 55-4648. The manager there told him that it remains inside the old damaged building in Patterson. Scott aske d how they planned to move it to Houma, LA, and the manager was not sure. He asked what condition it was in and was told that nothing had been don e to it since the storms of 2005. Bert -----Original Message----- From: Wiliam Boelte <n55bz(at)cox.net> Sent: Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:52 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fw: F16 vs. C-130 Here is another which has been around for a while. Bill Subject: The Gospel According to St. Fresnel of the Miraculous Lens This should stir the memory! As the friend who sent it to me said, "this should dredge up some memories . I hadn't seen it in quite awhile, thought I would send it on. Enjoy! Deadly The Gospel According to St. Fresnel of the Miraculous Lens Chapter One, Versus One through Five In the Beginning, God created the heavens, and the Aircraft Carrier, and the seas upon which to float it; and yet there was complete Darkness upon the face of the earth. And, as we traveled there came to us, as a voice out of the darkness, an angel of the Lord, saying, "On centerline, on Gli deslope, three quarters of a mile, call the ball." I reflected upon these words, for I was still yet engulfed in complete darkness. With deep feeli ng and doubt overwhelming my countenance, I glanceth towards my companion at my right hand and saith, "What seeth thou, trusted friend?", and there was a great silence. Gazing in a searching manner and seeing naught, I raised my voice saying, "Clara..." And God spoke to me, and He said, "You're low..power". As the Lord saith, so shall it be, and I added power; and lo, the ball riseth up onto the bo ttom of the mirror. But it was a tainted red glow, and surely indicateth Satan's own influence. And God spoke to me again saying, "Power.Power..Po wer!!!!....fly the ball." And lo, the ball riseth up and off the top of th e lens, and the great darkness was upon me. And the voice of the Angel came to me again, saying, "When comfortable, tw elve hundred feet, turn downwind." Whereupon I wandered in the darkness, without direction, for surely the ships radar was beset by demons, and th ere was great confusion cast upon CATCC, and there was a great silence in which there was no comfort to be found. Even my tacan needle spinneth..an d lo, there was chaos; my trusted companion weepeth quietly unto himself and from close behind I heard weeping and gnashing of teeth of our flock. There was a great turmoil within my cockpit for a multitude of serpents had crept therein. And though we wandered, as if by Providence I found myself within that Hol y Corridor, and at twelve hundred feet, among my brethren seeking refuge; and the voice of the Angel of the Lord came to me again, asking of me my needles, and I raised my voice saying, "Up and centered", and the voice answered, "Roger, fly your needles.." I reflected upon these words, and I raised my voice in prayer, for though my gyro indicateth it not so, sur ely my aircraft hath been turned upside down. Verily, as Beelzebub surely wrestled with me, a voice, that of my trusted companion, saith to me calm ly, "Friend...fly thy needles, and find comfort in the Lord." And lo, with deep trembling in my heart, I did, and He guideth me to centered glideslo pe and centerline, though I know not how it came to be. And out of the great darkness, God spoke to me again saying, "Roger ball" for now I had faith. And though the ball began to rise at the in close po sition, my right hand was full of the Spirit, and it squeeketh off power and as in a great miracle my plane stoppeth upon the flight deck, for it hath caught the four wire which God in his infinite wisdom hath placed th irty feet further down the flight deck than the three wire. And thus bathed in a golden radiance from above, our pilgrimage was at an end, and my spirit was truly reborn. And as I basked in the rapture, God spoketh to me one final time, and He saith, "Lights out on deck.." ----- Original Message ----- From: Donnie Rose nder-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 06 February, 2010 11:16 Subject: Commander-List: Fw: F16 vs. C-130 Donnie Rose 205/492-8444 ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Joseph Horton <jesterforlife(at)gmail.com> "Dillon, Robert E CIV USA AMC" ; tim adams ; bill dunn ; Thomas Bertuccini ; Barry Seibel MD ; William O. Ban k ; "Kerber, Charles" ; Chuck Kerber ; Dr. Chopko ; Damon Patte rson ; David Goltra ; Laurence D. Crom well ; Daniel Nix ; "Emanuel Kanal, MD, FACR, FISMRM" <ekanal+@pitt.edu>; FRED MCCORKLE ; forbes mathews ; Marcelino Gorosp e ; Glenn Daugherty ; John Trotti ; "Patel, Sunil J." ; Thoma s Owens ; Tom Owens ; R. Sean Pakb az ; Jeremy Young Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 6:31:28 PM Subject: F16 vs. C-130 You've probably seen this already , but just in case.... Subject: FW: F16 vs. C-130 F16 vs. C-130 A C-130 was lumbering along when a cocky F-16 flashed by. The jet jockey decided to show off. The fighter jock told the C-130 pilot, 'watch this!' and promptly went into a barrel roll followed by a steep climb. He then finished with a sonic boom as he broke the sound barrier. The F-16 pilot asked the C-130 pilot what he thought of that? The C-130 pilot said, 'That was impressive, but watch this!' The C-130 droned along for about 5 minutes and then the C-130 pilot came back on and said: 'What did you think of that?' Puzzled, the F-16 pilot asked, 'What the heck did you do?' The C-130 pilot chuckled. 'I stood up, stretched my legs, walked to the back, took a leak, then got a cup of coffee and a cinnamon roll.' When you are young & foolish - speed & flash may seem a good thing !!! When you get older & smarter - comfort & dull is not such a bad thing !!! Us older folks understand this one. . Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. -- Qui tacet consentire videtur. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Elephant park
Date: Feb 06, 2010
nico=2C sorry I did not reply to your thoughts regarding N70QT. I trust yo u do not think that I acted in a way that the auto owner of your story acte d. I am sorry that I lost a great airplane that I had put a lot of time an d money into. I am=2C however=2C that in losing and enging (left) at rotat ion=2C that there was no physical damage elsewhere=2C or injuries to any in dividual. Metal can be replaced. My wife cannot. gmc former owner and p ilot of N70QT From: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com Subject: Commander-List: Elephant park Date: Fri=2C 5 Feb 2010 23:56:35 -0800 The Addo Elephant Park South Africa=2C 2001 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTzIrmnuufA Enjoy Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Elephant park
Date: Feb 08, 2010
Hi Mason, I believe that N70QT never suffered a single malicious blow from its owner. Your decision was indeed a wise one for the reasons you mentioned. The owner of the Ferrari was a crook, which explains the outcome of his little scheme. You, sir, can walk with honor having done the right thing. But, so is it with most pilots, I dare to say. Especially Commander pilots? Thanks for the response. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MASON CHEVAILLIER Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:13 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Elephant park nico, sorry I did not reply to your thoughts regarding N70QT. I trust you do not think that I acted in a way that the auto owner of your story acted. I am sorry that I lost a great airplane that I had put a lot of time and money into. I am, however, that in losing and enging (left) at rotation, that there was no physical damage elsewhere, or injuries to any individual. Metal can be replaced. My wife cannot. gmc former owner and pilot of N70QT _____ From: nico(at)cybersuperstore.com Subject: Commander-List: Elephant park Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 23:56:35 -0800 The Addo Elephant Park South Africa, 2001 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTzIrmnuufA Enjoy Thanks Nico st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2010
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Fw: Insurance
=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Forwarded Message ----=0AFrom: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: commander-list@matro nics.com=0ASent: Mon, February 1, 2010 12:57:37 PM=0ASubject: Insurance=0A =0A=0AHas anyone in the group ever thought of or did a Group Insurance plan ? With our numbers, we probably can pull it off.=0ATCFG...=0A-=0ADonnie R ose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Honor and Respect
Date: Feb 08, 2010
>From a friend. MAY GOD BLESS THIS AIRLINE CAPTAIN: He writes: My lead flight attendant came to me and said, "We have an H.R. on this flight." (H.R. stands for human remains.) "Are they military?" I asked. 'Yes', she said. 'Is there an escort?' I asked. 'Yes, I already assigned him a seat'. 'Would you please tell him to come to the flight deck. You can board him early," I said.. A short while later, a young army sergeant entered the flight deck. He was the image of the perfectly dressed soldier. He introduced himself and I asked him about his soldier. The escorts of these fallen soldiers talk about them as if they are still alive and still with us. 'My soldier is on his way back to Virginia ', he said. He proceeded to answer my questions, but offered no words. I asked him if there was anything I could do for him and he said no. I told him that he had the toughest job in the military and that I appreciated the work that he does for the families of our fallen soldiers. The first officer and I got up out of our seats to shake his hand. He left the flight deck to find his seat. We completed our preflight checks, pushed back and performed an uneventful departure. About 30 minutes into our flight I received a call from the lead flight attendant in the cabin. 'I just found out the family of the soldier we are carrying, is on board', she said. She then proceeded to tell me that the father, mother, wife and 2-year old daughter were escorting their son, husband, and father home. The family was upset because they were unable to see the container that the soldier was in before we left. We were on our way to a major hub at which the family was going to wait four hours for the connecting flight home to Virginia . The father of the soldier told the flight attendant that knowing his son was below him in the cargo compartment and being unable to see him was too much for him and the family to bear. He had asked the flight attendant if there was anything that could be done to allow them to see him upon our arrival. The family wanted to be outside by the cargo door to watch the soldier being taken off the airplane.. I could hear the desperation in the flight attendants voice when she asked me if there was anything I could do.. 'I'm on it', I said. I told her that I would get back to her. Airborne communication with my company normally occurs in the form of e-mail like messages. I decided to bypass this system and contact my flight dispatcher directly on a secondary radio. There is a radio operator in the operations control center who connects you to the telephone of the dispatcher. I was in direct contact with the dispatcher.. I explained the situation I had on board with the family and what it was the family wanted. He said he understood and that he would get back to me. Two hours went by and I had not heard from the dispatcher. We were going to get busy soon and I needed to know what to tell the family. I sent a text message asking for an update. I saved the return message from the dispatcher and the following is the text: 'Captain, sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. There is policy on this now and I had to check on a few things. Upon your arrival a dedicated escort team will meet the aircraft. The team will escort the family to the ramp and plane side. A van will be used to load the remains with a secondary van for the family. The family will be taken to their departure area and escorted into the terminal where the remains can be seen on the ramp. It is a private area for the family only. When the connecting aircraft arrives, the family will be escorted onto the ramp and plane side to watch the remains being loaded for the final leg home. Captain, most of us here in flight control are veterans. Please pass our condolences on to the family. Thanks.' I sent a message back telling flight control thanks for a good job. I printed out the message and gave it to the lead flight attendant to pass on to the father. The lead flight attendant was very thankful and told me, 'You have no idea how much this will mean to them.' Things started getting busy for the descent, approach and landing. After landing, we cleared the runway and taxied to the ramp area. The ramp is huge with 15 gates on either side of the alleyway. It is always a busy area with aircraft maneuvering every which way to enter and exit. When we entered the ramp and checked in with the ramp controller, we were told that all traffic was being held for us. 'There is a team in place to meet the aircraft', we were told. It looked like it was all coming together, then I realized that once we turned the seat belt sign off, everyone would stand up at once and delay the family from getting off the airplane. As we approached our gate, I asked the copilot to tell the ramp controller we were going to stop short of the gate to make an announcement to the passengers. He did that and the ramp controller said, 'Take your time.' I stopped the aircraft and set the parking brake. I pushed the public address button and said, 'Ladies and gentleman, this is your Captain speaking I have stopped short of our gate to make a special announcement. We have a passenger on board who deserves our honor and respect. His Name is Private XXXXXX, a soldier who recently lost his life. Private XXXXXX is under your feet in the cargo hold. Escorting him today is Army Sergeant XXXXXXX. Also, on board are his father, mother, wife, and daughter. Your entire flight crew is asking for all passengers to remain in their seats to allow the family to exit the aircraft first. Thank you.' We continued the turn to the gate, came to a stop and started our shutdown procedures. A couple of minutes later I opened the cockpit door. I found the two forward flight attendants crying, something you just do not see. I was told that after we came to a stop, every passenger on the aircraft stayed in their seats, waiting for the family to exit the aircraft. When the family got up and gathered their things, a passenger slowly started to clap his hands. Moments later more passengers joined in and soon the entire aircraft was clapping. Words of 'God Bless You', I'm sorry, thank you, be proud, and other kind words were uttered to the family as they made their way down the aisle and out of the airplane. They were escorted down to the ramp to finally be with their loved one. Many of the passengers disembarking thanked me for the announcement I had made. They were just words, I told them, I could say them over and over again, but nothing I say will bring back that brave soldier. I respectfully ask that all of you reflect on this event and the sacrifices that millions of our men and women have made to ensure our freedom and safety in these United States of AMERICA . Foot note: As a Viet Nam Veteran I can only think of all the veterans including the ones that rode below the deck on their way home and how they we were treated. When I read things like this I am proud that our country has not turned their backs on our solders returning from the various war zones today and give them the respect they so deserve. I know every Viet Nam veteran who reads this will have tears in their eyes Including me. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MASON CHEVAILLIER <kamala(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: N70QT is on ebay
Date: Feb 09, 2010
th=2C just got back and saw this=2C to late to view. hope it helps someone . tnx gmc > From: tylorhall(at)mac.com > Subject: Commander-List: N70QT is on ebay > Date: Sun=2C 31 Jan 2010 14:17:14 -0700 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Aero-Commander-680F-Parts-Only_W0QQcm dZViewItemQQhashZitem3efc60dfb4QQitemZ270522179508QQptZMotorsQ5fAircraft#ht _1702wt_553 > > > above it a link to the auction of a 680FP=2C MR RPM. > She has been cut up. > Sorry to see her go. Mason=2C you do not need to go see these photos. > > Viewer discretion is advised. These are very ugly photos. > I hope these parts keep other Twin Commanders flying. > Tylor Hall > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOMMY MATHIEU <tmathieu(at)MSN.COM>
Subject:
Date: Feb 15, 2010
Dear Sir=3B I have broken a trim switch on the yoke of my 500S. I was wondering if some one might be able to point me in the right direction of finding a replaceme nt please. The part number is 22048-0001 and it is a electric switch for an FCS-810 Bendix autopilot. The retail cost of this simple switch is astrono mical! Anyone that might have a suggestion on where to find a used one of t hese would be very=2C very much appreciated. I sincerely appreciate any inf o you might provide and thanks very much for the assistance. Tommy Mathieu N915PR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stan" <swperk(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: 500S Electric Trim Switch Replacement
Date: Feb 15, 2010
Hi Tommy, Are you absolutely certain that it's the switch and not the wiring or the trim servo itself? If so, is the switch physically damaged or just not making electrical contact inside? If it's the latter, sometimes a shot of contact cleaner down inside the mechanism can do wonders! I was able to find these alternative part numbers for that switch: Mason 305-4313 King 005-0267-0012 Esterline is a distributor for Mason Switches, and they have a sales desk that can probably help you find what you need. *Sometimes* if the salesman is in a good mood, and they have the switch in stock, you can have them send you a "sample" for no charge. Here's what I found on a page on their web site: MASONR Slide Switches For more information or sales assistance, call us at 818-361-3366 or email mason.sales(at)esterline.com. Here's the actual page with drawings of the 305 series of switches: http://www.esterline.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=AbDCHJFMPf4%3d&tabid=2156 I also found a Mason 305-4313 that sold on eBay in December for $52.00, but there are no other switches currently listed. Hope this helps, Stan From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOMMY MATHIEU Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: Commander-List: Dear Sir; I have broken a trim switch on the yoke of my 500S. I was wondering if someone might be able to point me in the right direction of finding a replacement please. The part number is 22048-0001 and it is a electric switch for an FCS-810 Bendix autopilot. The retail cost of this simple switch is astronomical! Anyone that might have a suggestion on where to find a used one of these would be very, very much appreciated. I sincerely appreciate any info you might provide and thanks very much for the assistance. Tommy Mathieu N915PR ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport
Date: Feb 16, 2010
Subject: NOAA weather Map for every Airport [] <http://style.auxpa.org/AppA/5a_AUXPA/AUXPA_W_200px.png> This is quite interesting and quick... Bring up the map, mouse over any airport, get an instant readout of WX conditions.... <http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa> http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Hi Folks, Offhand does anyone know which Commander had a pilot and copilot seats that had head rests, but no arm rests? I only ask because now I am the proud owner of the set of them, which are being converted into office chairs. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: Jim Addington Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:40 AM Subject: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Subject: NOAA weather Map for every Airport This is quite interesting and quick... Bring up the map, mouse over any airport, get an instant readout of WX conditions.... http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Sweet, a trivia question! I say perhaps the always elusive Fuji/Rockwell 700? Barry Collman: If I'm right, do I get a prize? And Moe, you're retired. Why do you need new office chairs? I thought your office chair was the pilot seat that's actually IN your Commander? /J _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:00 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Hi Folks, Offhand does anyone know which Commander had a pilot and copilot seats that had head rests, but no arm rests? I only ask because now I am the proud owner of the set of them, which are being converted into office chairs. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: <mailto:jtaddington(at)verizon.net> Jim Addington Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:40 AM Subject: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Subject: NOAA weather Map for every Airport [] <http://style.auxpa.org/AppA/5a_AUXPA/AUXPA_W_200px.png> This is quite interesting and quick... Bring up the map, mouse over any airport, get an instant readout of WX conditions.... <http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa> http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4890 (20100223) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Hi John, The short answer? I haven't got a clue! Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vormbaum To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:47 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Sweet, a trivia question! I say perhaps the always elusive Fuji/Rockwell 700? Barry Collman: If I'm right, do I get a prize? And Moe, you're retired. Why do you need new office chairs? I thought your office chair was the pilot seat that's actually IN your Commander? /J ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:00 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Hi Folks, Offhand does anyone know which Commander had a pilot and copilot seats that had head rests, but no arm rests? I only ask because now I am the proud owner of the set of them, which are being converted into office chairs. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: Jim Addington Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:40 AM To: Jim Addington Subject: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Subject: NOAA weather Map for every Airport This is quite interesting and quick... Bring up the map, mouse over any airport, get an instant readout of WX conditions.... http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4890 (20100223) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport
Date: Feb 24, 2010
John, Since retiring, new office chairs are finically off limits so old Commander seats will have to do. You can operate a Commander for almost 15 minutes for about the same cost as a set of office chairs. It just seems that head rests with no arm rests are an odd combination. Regards, Moe N680RR 680Fp From: John Vormbaum Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Sweet, a trivia question! I say perhaps the always elusive Fuji/Rockwell 700? Barry Collman: If I'm right, do I get a prize? And Moe, you're retired. Why do you need new office chairs? I thought your office chair was the pilot seat that's actually IN your Commander? /J ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:00 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Hi Folks, Offhand does anyone know which Commander had a pilot and copilot seats that had head rests, but no arm rests? I only ask because now I am the proud owner of the set of them, which are being converted into office chairs. Regards, Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: Jim Addington Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:40 AM Subject: Commander-List: FW: NOAA weather Map for every Airport Subject: NOAA weather Map for every Airport This is quite interesting and quick... Bring up the map, mouse over any airport, get an instant readout of WX conditions.... http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4890 (20100223) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Fw: International Space Station
Date: Mar 03, 2010
----- Original Message ----- From: scott<mailto:sboyn(at)frontiernet.net> silverman Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 11:22 AM Subject: Fwd: International Space Station Begin forwarded message: From: MonicaBobb24(at)aol.com<mailto:MonicaBobb24(at)aol.com> Date: March 2, 2010 11:01:27 PM EST To: junior.anderson(at)att.net Subject: Fwd: Fw: International Space Station From: Nevanish(at)aol.com<mailto:Nevanish(at)aol.com> Date: March 2, 2010 10:55:35 PM EST To: jellsworth77(at)yahoo.com, dells(at)roadrunner.com, Dtsv180(at)aol.com, vanman(at)windstream.net Cc: MonicaBobb24(at)aol.com, wcartwrigh(at)aol.com Subject: Fwd: Fw: International Space Station ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: bluemax2(at)comcast.net<mailto:bluemax2(at)comcast.net> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Sent: 2/28/2010 7:19:08 P.M. Central Standard Time Subj: Fw: International Space Station Space Station This is neat! What the world can accomplish when it works together....... Watch the pieces come together as they are sent up from Earth. This is the International Space Station (ISS) Assembly diagram, piece by piece. Be sure to compare the size of the Space Station to the Boeing airplane in the lower left hand corner. I had no idea the Space Station had grown to this size. This is really cool http://i.usatoday.net/tech/graphics/iss_timeline/flash.htm day.net/tech/graphics/iss_timeline/flash.htm> God Bless America ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter<http://www.spamfighter.com/len>. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 08, 2010
Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe N680RR 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 2010
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)" <deneals(at)deneals.com>
On 3/8/10 10:34 AM, "Moe-rosspistons" wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just > quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp YES -- Deneal Schilmeister, ATP Learjet St. Louis http://deneals.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 08, 2010
Hi Moe, Me neither! Must be quiet. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe N680RR 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com>
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 08, 2010
I'm here Moe... Have a great day! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 08, 2010
I think it is because a while ago, someone 'fussed' about the "non-Commander" post, so everyone stopped. From: David Owens Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? I'm here Moe... Have a great day! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02:34:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 09, 2010
We here in Oz are still spinning downunder!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 08, 2010
Yeah, Moe, it has been pretty quiet.... I'd post, but my airplane is getting some TLC (new audio panel) at Morris' so I haven't done any flying, and not much else to talk about lately. How's the weather in the southwest? How's N680RR? Cheers, /John _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 8:35 AM Subject: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe N680RR 680Fp __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 2010
From: <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
Hi Moe, Yes, we're here. In fact, I am down in the desert this week attending the BNP Parabas Open tennis tourney in Indian Wells. Flew into Bermuda Dunes on Friday evening. I've got a rough mag on the R engine, and am having Ken at Desert Aeronautics take a look at it. He says that he has worked on your 680FP. Nice to talk to someone who has worked n a 680F. I'll tell him you said hello. Randy Dedttmer N6253 / 680F ---- Moe-rosspistons wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 08, 2010
Perhaps if I post a couple of politically incendiary remarks, the site will light up again. :-D Great to hear from you all. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Girod Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? I think it is because a while ago, someone 'fussed' about the "non-Commander" post, so everyone stopped. From: David Owens <mailto:dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? I'm here Moe... Have a great day! title="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List to follow link" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com title="http://www.matronics.com/contribution CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ Release Date: 03/08/10 02:34:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 08, 2010
Hi Randy, I am not sure if you will have time, but a good tennis buddy of mine, Bob Tomanek, is an official at the tournament. He is in his late 60's about 5' 7" with a beard or goatee. I am playing in his place tomorrow and Thursday morning at the local hangouts. Without fear of speaking out of turn, look him up and say Hi for me; perhaps he can show you around behind the fences if you are not already able to do that. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rcdettmer(at)charter.net Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Moe, Yes, we're here. In fact, I am down in the desert this week attending the BNP Parabas Open tennis tourney in Indian Wells. Flew into Bermuda Dunes on Friday evening. I've got a rough mag on the R engine, and am having Ken at Desert Aeronautics take a look at it. He says that he has worked on your 680FP. Nice to talk to someone who has worked n a 680F. I'll tell him you said hello. Randy Dedttmer N6253 / 680F ---- Moe-rosspistons wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 08, 2010
N680RR has literally been frozen to the ground for about a month. Snow melted, made a huge puddle of water and then froze with the mains in the ice. Has just thawed out, and I may actually taxi tomorrow. All of the old timers around here say it has been the worst winter in over 25 years. Lets hear it for Al Gore and global warming. Which audio panel are you getting? Moe From: John Vormbaum Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:29 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Yeah, Moe, it has been pretty quiet.... I'd post, but my airplane is getting some TLC (new audio panel) at Morris' so I haven't done any flying, and not much else to talk about lately. How's the weather in the southwest? How's N680RR? Cheers, /John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 8:35 AM Subject: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe N680RR 680Fp href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 2010
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Moe, look at the bright side...if the mains are frozen to the ground, the airplane won't blow away at the next global warming event (storm). The weather has been sucky here too. I'm glad my airplane is tucked into a warm hangar, which is why I haven't pushed Morris to finish quickly. He found me a great deal on a PS Engineering PMA-7000 a while back. The stereo iPod inputs should be nice for the longer trips. And don't be mad at Al Gore. If all his barking results in alternative fuels, it'll free up more dinosaur juice for our airplanes! John On Mar 8, 2010 10:03 PM, "Moe-rosspistons" wrote: *N680RR has literally been frozen to the ground for about a month. Snow melted, made a huge puddle of water and then froze with the mains in the ice. Has just thawed out, and I may actually taxi tomorrow. All of the old timers around here say it has been the worst winter in over 25 years. Lets hear it for Al Gore and global warming. Which audio panel are you getting?* ** *Moe* *From:* John Vormbaum *Sent:* Monday, March 08, 2010 9:29 AM *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Yeah, Moe, it has been pretty quiet.... I'd post, but my airplane is getting some TLC (new audio panel) at Morris' so I haven't done any flying, and not much else to talk about lately. How's the weather in the southwest? How's N680RR? Cheers, /John ------------------------------ *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Moe-rosspistons *Sent:* Monday, March 08, 2010 8:35 AM *Subject:* Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe ... * href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* Web Forums! href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 2010
Subject: Re: Commander-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 03/08/10
It has been so cold in Tn. and we can`t find Al Gore. Any one seen him we need to get the thermostat turned up! Gil N-6819-Q In a message dated 3/9/2010 1:56:42 A.M. Central America Standard Ti, commander-list(at)matronics.com writes: * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-03-08&Archive=Commander Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2010-03-08&Archive=Commander =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/08/10: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:12 AM - Is anyone out there? (Moe-rosspistons) 2. 01:20 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)) 3. 01:52 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (Barry Collman) 4. 01:54 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (David Owens) 5. 03:56 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (Don Girod) 6. 03:56 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? () 7. 05:18 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (John Vormbaum) 8. 05:48 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? () 9. 06:38 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (nico css) 10. 06:43 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (nico css) 11. 09:59 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (Moe-rosspistons) 12. 10:13 PM - Re: Is anyone out there? (John Vormbaum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe N680RR 680Fp ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? From: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)" <deneals(at)deneals.com> On 3/8/10 10:34 AM, "Moe-rosspistons" wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just > quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp YES -- Deneal Schilmeister, ATP Learjet St. Louis http://deneals.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Moe, Me neither! Must be quiet. Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: Moe-rosspistons Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe N680RR 680Fp ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ From: "David Owens" <dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? I'm here Moe... Have a great day! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? I think it is because a while ago, someone 'fussed' about the "non-Commander" post, so everyone stopped. From: David Owens Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? I'm here Moe... Have a great day! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02:34:00 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ From: <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? We here in Oz are still spinning downunder!! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Yeah, Moe, it has been pretty quiet.... I'd post, but my airplane is getting some TLC (new audio panel) at Morris' so I haven't done any flying, and not much else to talk about lately. How's the weather in the southwest? How's N680RR? Cheers, /John _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 8:35 AM Subject: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe N680RR 680Fp __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ From: <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Moe, Yes, we're here. In fact, I am down in the desert this week attending the BNP Parabas Open tennis tourney in Indian Wells. Flew into Bermuda Dunes on Friday evening. I've got a rough mag on the R engine, and am having Ken at Desert Aeronautics take a look at it. He says that he has worked on your 680FP. Nice to talk to someone who has worked n a 680F. I'll tell him you said hello. Randy Dedttmer N6253 / 680F ---- Moe-rosspistons wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Perhaps if I post a couple of politically incendiary remarks, the site will light up again. :-D Great to hear from you all. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Girod Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? I think it is because a while ago, someone 'fussed' about the "non-Commander" post, so everyone stopped. From: David Owens <mailto:dowens(at)aerialviewpoint.com> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? I'm here Moe... Have a great day! title="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List to follow link" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com title="http://www.matronics.com/contribution CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ Release Date: 03/08/10 02:34:00 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Randy, I am not sure if you will have time, but a good tennis buddy of mine, Bob Tomanek, is an official at the tournament. He is in his late 60's about 5' 7" with a beard or goatee. I am playing in his place tomorrow and Thursday morning at the local hangouts. Without fear of speaking out of turn, look him up and say Hi for me; perhaps he can show you around behind the fences if you are not already able to do that. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rcdettmer(at)charter.net Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Moe, Yes, we're here. In fact, I am down in the desert this week attending the BNP Parabas Open tennis tourney in Indian Wells. Flew into Bermuda Dunes on Friday evening. I've got a rough mag on the R engine, and am having Ken at Desert Aeronautics take a look at it. He says that he has worked on your 680FP. Nice to talk to someone who has worked n a 680F. I'll tell him you said hello. Randy Dedttmer N6253 / 680F ---- Moe-rosspistons wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? N680RR has literally been frozen to the ground for about a month. Snow melted, made a huge puddle of water and then froze with the mains in the ice. Has just thawed out, and I may actually taxi tomorrow. All of the old timers around here say it has been the worst winter in over 25 years. Lets hear it for Al Gore and global warming. Which audio panel are you getting? Moe From: John Vormbaum Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:29 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Yeah, Moe, it has been pretty quiet.... I'd post, but my airplane is getting some TLC (new audio panel) at Morris' so I haven't done any flying, and not much else to talk about lately. How's the weather in the southwest? How's N680RR? Cheers, /John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 8:35 AM Subject: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe N680RR 680Fp href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. =========== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> Moe, look at the bright side...if the mains are frozen to the ground, the airplane won't blow away at the next global warming event (storm). The weather has been sucky here too. I'm glad my airplane is tucked into a warm hangar, which is why I haven't pushed Morris to finish quickly. He found me a great deal on a PS Engineering PMA-7000 a while back. The stereo iPod inputs should be nice for the longer trips. And don't be mad at Al Gore. If all his barking results in alternative fuels, it'll free up more dinosaur juice for our airplanes! John On Mar 8, 2010 10:03 PM, "Moe-rosspistons" wrote: *N680RR has literally been frozen to the ground for about a month. Snow melted, made a huge puddle of water and then froze with the mains in the ice. Has just thawed out, and I may actually taxi tomorrow. All of the old timers around here say it has been the worst winter in over 25 years. Lets hear it for Al Gore and global warming. Which audio panel are you getting?* ** *Moe* *From:* John Vormbaum *Sent:* Monday, March 08, 2010 9:29 AM *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Yeah, Moe, it has been pretty quiet.... I'd post, but my airplane is getting some TLC (new audio panel) at Morris' so I haven't done any flying, and not much else to talk about lately. How's the weather in the southwest? How's N680RR? Cheers, /John ------------------------------ *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Moe-rosspistons *Sent:* Monday, March 08, 2010 8:35 AM *Subject:* Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi, Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? Moe ... * href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List* Web Forums! href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Goose bumps
Date: Mar 12, 2010
Nice video... http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2010/march/turbine_super_s.html?WT.a dv=adv1 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Goose bumps
Date: Mar 13, 2010
Nico, Thanks for that. I go up to Telluride ever now and again to get cheap gas...definitely not recommended for the unsupercharged!!! Take off and land on the same runway. A couple of weeks ago I posed the question "which Twin Commander has no armrests but has head rests". Turns out that the seats are for a Twin Comanche Not a Twin Commander. regards, Moe N680RR 680Fp From: nico css Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: Commander-List: Goose bumps Nice video... http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2010/march/turbine_super_s.html?W T.adv=adv1 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Goose bumps
Date: Mar 13, 2010
Moe; Guess that means they are not identical twins then! Don From: Moe-rosspistons Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 10:26 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Goose bumps Nico, Thanks for that. I go up to Telluride ever now and again to get cheap gas...definitely not recommended for the unsupercharged!!! Take off and land on the same runway. A couple of weeks ago I posed the question "which Twin Commander has no armrests but has head rests". Turns out that the seats are for a Twin Comanche Not a Twin Commander. regards, Moe N680RR 680Fp From: nico css Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: Commander-List: Goose bumps Nice video... http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2010/march/turbine_super_s.html?W T.adv=adv1 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02:33:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 14, 2010
Hi Nico, Didn't get your email until returning home yesterday (gorgeous flight from Bermuda Dunes to San Luis Obispo). I would have liked to look up your friend. Thanks. Randy Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Randy, I am not sure if you will have time, but a good tennis buddy of mine, Bob Tomanek, is an official at the tournament. He is in his late 60's about 5' 7" with a beard or goatee. I am playing in his place tomorrow and Thursday morning at the local hangouts. Without fear of speaking out of turn, look him up and say Hi for me; perhaps he can show you around behind the fences if you are not already able to do that. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rcdettmer(at)charter.net Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Moe, Yes, we're here. In fact, I am down in the desert this week attending the BNP Parabas Open tennis tourney in Indian Wells. Flew into Bermuda Dunes on Friday evening. I've got a rough mag on the R engine, and am having Ken at Desert Aeronautics take a look at it. He says that he has worked on your 680FP. Nice to talk to someone who has worked n a 680F. I'll tell him you said hello. Randy Dedttmer N6253 / 680F ---- Moe-rosspistons wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are things just quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 14, 2010
Hi Randy, That's OK, thanks for responding. I trust you enjoyed the tournament. Great to hear you had a gorgeous flight. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 11:52 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? --> Hi Nico, Didn't get your email until returning home yesterday (gorgeous flight from Bermuda Dunes to San Luis Obispo). I would have liked to look up your friend. Thanks. Randy Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? --> Hi Randy, I am not sure if you will have time, but a good tennis buddy of mine, Bob Tomanek, is an official at the tournament. He is in his late 60's about 5' 7" with a beard or goatee. I am playing in his place tomorrow and Thursday morning at the local hangouts. Without fear of speaking out of turn, look him up and say Hi for me; perhaps he can show you around behind the fences if you are not already able to do that. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rcdettmer(at)charter.net Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Moe, Yes, we're here. In fact, I am down in the desert this week attending the BNP Parabas Open tennis tourney in Indian Wells. Flew into Bermuda Dunes on Friday evening. I've got a rough mag on the R engine, and am having Ken at Desert Aeronautics take a look at it. He says that he has worked on your 680FP. Nice to talk to someone who has worked n a 680F. I'll tell him you said hello. Randy Dedttmer N6253 / 680F ---- Moe-rosspistons wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are > things just quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 14, 2010
The tournament was spectacular as usual - the best players in the world up close and personal. We will enjoy the second week from our choice seats in our living room. And, to arrive and depart via Twin Commander is the best. I'll do my best to play like the pros tomorrow morning with my men's group. Randy Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:27 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Randy, That's OK, thanks for responding. I trust you enjoyed the tournament. Great to hear you had a gorgeous flight. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 11:52 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? --> Hi Nico, Didn't get your email until returning home yesterday (gorgeous flight from Bermuda Dunes to San Luis Obispo). I would have liked to look up your friend. Thanks. Randy Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? --> Hi Randy, I am not sure if you will have time, but a good tennis buddy of mine, Bob Tomanek, is an official at the tournament. He is in his late 60's about 5' 7" with a beard or goatee. I am playing in his place tomorrow and Thursday morning at the local hangouts. Without fear of speaking out of turn, look him up and say Hi for me; perhaps he can show you around behind the fences if you are not already able to do that. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rcdettmer(at)charter.net Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Hi Moe, Yes, we're here. In fact, I am down in the desert this week attending the BNP Parabas Open tennis tourney in Indian Wells. Flew into Bermuda Dunes on Friday evening. I've got a rough mag on the R engine, and am having Ken at Desert Aeronautics take a look at it. He says that he has worked on your 680FP. Nice to talk to someone who has worked n a 680F. I'll tell him you said hello. Randy Dedttmer N6253 / 680F ---- Moe-rosspistons wrote: > Hi, > > Haven't seen a post in several days.....have I lost contact or are > things just quiet? > > > Moe > N680RR > 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 14, 2010
Subject: Re: Is anyone out there?
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Randy, I wish I'd known you were going. My mother is the chief of umpires for the ATP tour, and she runs the officiating for that event. I've spent many years in Indian Wells at that event, and I love flying to the desert for some top-notch tennis and golf. Maybe next year! Cheers, John sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. On Mar 14, 2010 5:18 PM, "Randy Dettmer, AIA" wrote: rcdettmer(at)charter.net> The tournament was spectacular as usual - the best players in the world up close and personal. We will enjoy the second week from our choice seats in our living room. And, to arrive and depart via Twin Commander is the best. I'll do my best to play like the pros tomorrow morning with my men's group. Randy Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4... Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:27 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: I... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Is anyone out there?
Date: Mar 15, 2010
Hi John, Yes, I remember you telling me about your Mom. She is quite the big cheese at the tournament. We have been going down for the tournament now for about 10 years. We have a timeshare across the street from the event on Fred Waring Drive. It's a five minute walk. Very convenient. How is your Commander doing these days..?? Randy Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:00 PM Subject: Re: RE: Commander-List: Is anyone out there? Randy, I wish I'd known you were going. My mother is the chief of umpires for the ATP tour, and she runs the officiating for that event. I've spent many years in Indian Wells at that event, and I love flying to the desert for some top-notch tennis and golf. Maybe next year! Cheers, John sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. On Mar 14, 2010 5:18 PM, "Randy Dettmer, AIA" wrote: The tournament was spectacular as usual - the best players in the world up close and personal. We will enjoy the second week from our choice seats in our living room. And, to arrive and depart via Twin Commander is the best. I'll do my best to play like the pros tomorrow morning with my men's group. Randy Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4... Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:27 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: I... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Moe-rosspistons" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: AOPA PACT
Date: Mar 16, 2010
Hi Folks, If anyone donates to the AOPA PACT (as I did for several years) you might want to go to www.opensecrets.org and see exactly who is getting your $$$$. I have contacted AOPA by email, phone, and by letter for some time now and no one seems to be able to explain the criterion for receiving campaign contributions, or exactly who gets what. Politics has been a problem in the past on this forum, however, this is more aviation related than political. Moe N680RR 680Fp ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 17, 2010
Subject: Re: AOPA PACT
The solution is real easy ! Don`t send money to ANY ONE in Washington DC In a message dated 3/17/2010 3:54:54 A.M. Central America Standard T, moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com writes: Hi Folks, If anyone donates to the AOPA PACT (as I did for several years) you might want to go to _www.opensecrets.org_ (http://www.opensecrets.org/) and see exactly who is getting your $$$$. I have contacted AOPA by email, phone, and by letter for some time now and no one seems to be able to explain the criterion for receiving campaign contributions, or exactly who gets what. Politics has been a problem in the past on this forum, however, this is more aviation related than political. Moe N680RR 680Fp (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pressure Carbs
Date: Mar 22, 2010
From: budplaster(at)aol.com
My 560E is on the ground in Las Vegas due to the carb on the left engine needing to be overhauled. I don't live in Las Vegas and would like to get it home to Apple Valley, Ca. as quickly as possible. Could someone please suggest a shop that still overhauls these parts? Your assistance will be greatly appreciated, Buddy A. Plaster ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Thompson" <richard(at)flycorp.com.au>
Subject: Pressure Carbs
Date: Mar 22, 2010
Buddy, <http://www.precisionengines.com/> www.precisionengines.com These guys supply all the kits. Its cheaper for them to overhaul your carb than for you to buy the kit from them. Cheers Richard _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of budplaster(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, 22 March 2010 4:24 PM Subject: Commander-List: Pressure Carbs My 560E is on the ground in Las Vegas due to the carb on the left engine needing to be overhauled. I don't live in Las Vegas and would like to get it home to Apple Valley, Ca. as quickly as possible. Could someone please suggest a shop that still overhauls these parts? Your assistance will be greatly appreciated, Buddy A. Plaster ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harry Merritt" <avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pressure Carbs
Date: Mar 22, 2010
I have the correct carburator on the shelf ( the carb has a overhauld tag) Can ship today, Please call me Harry 321 267-3141 ----- Original Message ----- From: budplaster(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:24 AM Subject: Commander-List: Pressure Carbs My 560E is on the ground in Las Vegas due to the carb on the left engine needing to be overhauled. I don't live in Las Vegas and would like to get it home to Apple Valley, Ca. as quickly as possible. Could someone please suggest a shop that still overhauls these parts? Your assistance will be greatly appreciated, Buddy A. Plaster ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harry Merritt" <avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pressure Carbs
Date: Mar 22, 2010
I have The correct carburetor for you aircraft on the shelf (Tagged) Can ship today Harry 321 267-3141 ----- Original Message ----- From: budplaster(at)aol.com To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:24 AM Subject: Commander-List: Pressure Carbs My 560E is on the ground in Las Vegas due to the carb on the left engine needing to be overhauled. I don't live in Las Vegas and would like to get it home to Apple Valley, Ca. as quickly as possible. Could someone please suggest a shop that still overhauls these parts? Your assistance will be greatly appreciated, Buddy A. Plaster ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Subject: Trace Engines LP
Date: Mar 30, 2010
Team, I had the honor to meet with David Czarnecki, CEO of Trace Engines at the aviation super show in Las Vegas the other week. traceengines.com They bought the Orenda (Thunder) engine and now have the production certificate. There have been many changes to the new production engines. The future things they are working on a confuter controlled ignition and mixture control. The 685 that has a pair of Orinda engines mounted on it and has flown has been recovered from North Dakota and flew to Midland, TX. It is still looking for an investor to finish the STC with the new Trace engines. The Trace engine is also working on a higher HP version. The have tested the engine up to 750+ Hp. On of the big changes in putting this engine on an airframe is the change from trying to put every thing in-front of the fire wall to moving the radiator and cooling into the engine nacelle This reduced the frontal area and made a sleeker look. They are in contact with Dick Macoon about further developments. I wonder if Midland, TX would be a good place for the annual fly-In?? Tylor Hall ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "kitepilot(at)kitepilot.com" <kitepilot(at)kitepilot.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Mar 31, 2010
Hello World... I am a lurker (and Twin-commander "drooler") in this list, and I've done some reading. I have never flown on an Aero Commander 5XX (would love to and would trade it for glider and/or taildragger teaching... ;-), but I did a lot of "riding" (I wasn't a pilot yet) on a Turbo Commander 690A (impressive beast). I owned a Bellanca Super Viking for several years and, although fairly active in aviation (glider tow, glider teaching, giving the occasional biannual and renting the occasional multi for currency), I am, at the, moment "plane-less". Question is (and please don't shoot the messenger) about the statement: >> The 685 that has a pair of Orinda engines mounted on it And the WEB site (one single non-spaces line from "http" to "htm"): http://www.epi-eng.com/aircraft_engine_conversions/additional_weight_conside rations.htm Look for "An Extremely Bad Example." Can anyone elaborate on this? Just plain and simple sick curiosity... Enrique A. Troconis Tylor Hall writes: > > Team, > I had the honor to meet with David Czarnecki, CEO of Trace Engines at the aviation super show in Las Vegas the other week. > > traceengines.com > > They bought the Orenda (Thunder) engine and now have the production certificate. There have been many changes to the new production engines. The future things they are working on a confuter controlled ignition and mixture control. > The 685 that has a pair of Orinda engines mounted on it and has flown has been recovered from North Dakota and flew to Midland, TX. It is still looking for an investor to finish the STC with the new Trace engines. > > The Trace engine is also working on a higher HP version. The have tested the engine up to 750+ Hp. > > On of the big changes in putting this engine on an airframe is the change from trying to put every thing in-front of the fire wall to moving the radiator and cooling into the engine nacelle This reduced the frontal area and made a sleeker look. > > They are in contact with Dick Macoon about further developments. > > I wonder if Midland, TX would be a good place for the annual fly-In?? > > Tylor Hall > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
From: "Peter Bichier" <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Date: Mar 31, 2010
For those of us who are not so cyber educated, just go to: http://www.epi-eng.com/ then on the left side you'll find "Aircraft Engine Conversions" then on #4 you have "Evaluating the Wisdom of an Engine Conversion" and finally scroll down to the bottom: "An Extremely Bad Example" ... which seem to completely shoot themselves on the foot with all the 685 photos... although the Orenda exists, so somehow Mr Macoon made it work, just don't know what was the payload or any of the other specs. -------- 560 Dreamer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292558#292558 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2010
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
I have also heard from people that flew the Orenda-powered airplane that there were some profound vibration issues. /J On 3/31/2010 11:57 AM, Peter Bichier wrote: > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Peter Bichier" > > For those of us who are not so cyber educated, just go to: > > http://www.epi-eng.com/ > > then on the left side you'll find "Aircraft Engine Conversions" > > then on #4 you have "Evaluating the Wisdom of an Engine Conversion" > > and finally scroll down to the bottom: "An Extremely Bad Example" > > ... which seem to completely shoot themselves on the foot with all the 685 photos... although the Orenda exists, so somehow Mr Macoon made it work, just don't know what was the payload or any of the other specs. > > -------- > 560 Dreamer > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292558#292558 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Mar 31, 2010
Very insightful article. It immediately struck me that the moment of the additional weight on the wing would be a killer, hanging an additional 660# 8 or 10 feet ahead of the wing root. But the chart shows a comparable load and torsion for a 550 hp V8 even if one adds in a 100# extra for the turbos, no? Why would that be a bad combination? Is there anything in a study somewhere about the vibration that folks experienced with the Orenda or other conversions? Gut-feel tells me that the GM engine would be smoother. I don't know why. Perhaps higher RPM? Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Bichier Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:58 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP --> For those of us who are not so cyber educated, just go to: http://www.epi-eng.com/ then on the left side you'll find "Aircraft Engine Conversions" then on #4 you have "Evaluating the Wisdom of an Engine Conversion" and finally scroll down to the bottom: "An Extremely Bad Example" ... which seem to completely shoot themselves on the foot with all the 685 photos... although the Orenda exists, so somehow Mr Macoon made it work, just don't know what was the payload or any of the other specs. -------- 560 Dreamer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292558#292558 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Date: Mar 31, 2010
Weight of the engine total installation has always been a concern. When talking to David from Trace, he talked about how this new engine is lighter that the older Orenda. They have also change from a Hartzel to a lighter weight prop that saves over 40 lb. Moving some items behind the fire wall also saved weight and center of gravity. It is all beyond my understanding, but it sounds good. The Trace engine has all new parts and new suppliers of these parts. To be certified, every part has to have a traceable supply chain. The Trace is an all new engine. Or that is what they were saying. Tylor Hall It has always been interesting to watch the development process. On Mar 31, 2010, at 2:03 PM, nico css wrote: > > Very insightful article. > > It immediately struck me that the moment of the additional weight on the > wing would be a killer, hanging an additional 660# 8 or 10 feet ahead of the > wing root. But the chart shows a comparable load and torsion for a 550 hp V8 > even if one adds in a 100# extra for the turbos, no? > > Why would that be a bad combination? Is there anything in a study somewhere > about the vibration that folks experienced with the Orenda or other > conversions? Gut-feel tells me that the GM engine would be smoother. I don't > know why. Perhaps higher RPM? > > Nico > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Bichier > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:58 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP > > --> > > For those of us who are not so cyber educated, just go to: > > http://www.epi-eng.com/ > > then on the left side you'll find "Aircraft Engine Conversions" > > then on #4 you have "Evaluating the Wisdom of an Engine Conversion" > > and finally scroll down to the bottom: "An Extremely Bad Example" > > ... which seem to completely shoot themselves on the foot with all the 685 > photos... although the Orenda exists, so somehow Mr Macoon made it work, > just don't know what was the payload or any of the other specs. > > -------- > 560 Dreamer > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292558#292558 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Mar 31, 2010
"It has always been interesting to watch the development process." Fascinating. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP Weight of the engine total installation has always been a concern. When talking to David from Trace, he talked about how this new engine is lighter that the older Orenda. They have also change from a Hartzel to a lighter weight prop that saves over 40 lb. Moving some items behind the fire wall also saved weight and center of gravity. It is all beyond my understanding, but it sounds good. The Trace engine has all new parts and new suppliers of these parts. To be certified, every part has to have a traceable supply chain. The Trace is an all new engine. Or that is what they were saying. Tylor Hall It has always been interesting to watch the development process. On Mar 31, 2010, at 2:03 PM, nico css wrote: > --> > > Very insightful article. > > It immediately struck me that the moment of the additional weight on > the wing would be a killer, hanging an additional 660# 8 or 10 feet > ahead of the wing root. But the chart shows a comparable load and > torsion for a 550 hp V8 even if one adds in a 100# extra for the turbos, no? > > Why would that be a bad combination? Is there anything in a study > somewhere about the vibration that folks experienced with the Orenda > or other conversions? Gut-feel tells me that the GM engine would be > smoother. I don't know why. Perhaps higher RPM? > > Nico > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Bichier > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:58 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP > > --> > > For those of us who are not so cyber educated, just go to: > > http://www.epi-eng.com/ > > then on the left side you'll find "Aircraft Engine Conversions" > > then on #4 you have "Evaluating the Wisdom of an Engine Conversion" > > and finally scroll down to the bottom: "An Extremely Bad Example" > > ... which seem to completely shoot themselves on the foot with all the > 685 photos... although the Orenda exists, so somehow Mr Macoon made it > work, just don't know what was the payload or any of the other specs. > > -------- > 560 Dreamer > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292558#292558 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Hamilton" <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Apr 01, 2010
Folks, A colleague of mine got involved in the tail end of the Orenda saga, there were some fundamental problems, some common to any configuration based on the 350 Chev. V-8 and firing order. Another was based on the problem of cylinder liners moving. Suffice to say, after mucho moolah was expended (invested??) none of the problems were solved, before the global financial crisis caught up. I did see a prototype of the "new" engine, that was going to solve all the Orenda in-service problems, was a really pretty engine, with a really impressive accessory drive case --- etc., etc, but it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental, unless you were building a replica Spitfire or similar. Cheers, Bill Hamilton PS: Re. interesting projects, stand by for the publicity release of a Brittain-Norman Trilander, but with one big turbo-prop, up the fin, replacing the three original engines. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP "It has always been interesting to watch the development process." Fascinating. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP Weight of the engine total installation has always been a concern. When talking to David from Trace, he talked about how this new engine is lighter that the older Orenda. They have also change from a Hartzel to a lighter weight prop that saves over 40 lb. Moving some items behind the fire wall also saved weight and center of gravity. It is all beyond my understanding, but it sounds good. The Trace engine has all new parts and new suppliers of these parts. To be certified, every part has to have a traceable supply chain. The Trace is an all new engine. Or that is what they were saying. Tylor Hall It has always been interesting to watch the development process. On Mar 31, 2010, at 2:03 PM, nico css wrote: > --> > > Very insightful article. > > It immediately struck me that the moment of the additional weight on > the wing would be a killer, hanging an additional 660# 8 or 10 feet > ahead of the wing root. But the chart shows a comparable load and > torsion for a 550 hp V8 even if one adds in a 100# extra for the turbos, no? > > Why would that be a bad combination? Is there anything in a study > somewhere about the vibration that folks experienced with the Orenda > or other conversions? Gut-feel tells me that the GM engine would be > smoother. I don't know why. Perhaps higher RPM? > > Nico > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Bichier > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:58 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP > > --> > > For those of us who are not so cyber educated, just go to: > > http://www.epi-eng.com/ > > then on the left side you'll find "Aircraft Engine Conversions" > > then on #4 you have "Evaluating the Wisdom of an Engine Conversion" > > and finally scroll down to the bottom: "An Extremely Bad Example" > > ... which seem to completely shoot themselves on the foot with all the > 685 photos... although the Orenda exists, so somehow Mr Macoon made it > work, just don't know what was the payload or any of the other specs. > > -------- > 560 Dreamer > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292558#292558 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Apr 01, 2010
This always intrigued me. Why would the aviation environment be so harsh on an engine. The 350 Chevy engine is a pretty robust engine, easily lasting 100,000 miles and at about 55 mph, it should be good for about 1,800 hours. Granted, it doesn't run at 75% power all the time, but all sorts of things seem to go wrong with an automobile engine as soon as they drop it into the nose or onto the wing of a plane. Any thoughts? -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hamilton Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:17 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP --> Folks, A colleague of mine got involved in the tail end of the Orenda saga, there were some fundamental problems, some common to any configuration based on the 350 Chev. V-8 and firing order. Another was based on the problem of cylinder liners moving. Suffice to say, after mucho moolah was expended (invested??) none of the problems were solved, before the global financial crisis caught up. I did see a prototype of the "new" engine, that was going to solve all the Orenda in-service problems, was a really pretty engine, with a really impressive accessory drive case --- etc., etc, but it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental, unless you were building a replica Spitfire or similar. Cheers, Bill Hamilton PS: Re. interesting projects, stand by for the publicity release of a Brittain-Norman Trilander, but with one big turbo-prop, up the fin, replacing the three original engines. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP --> "It has always been interesting to watch the development process." Fascinating. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP Weight of the engine total installation has always been a concern. When talking to David from Trace, he talked about how this new engine is lighter that the older Orenda. They have also change from a Hartzel to a lighter weight prop that saves over 40 lb. Moving some items behind the fire wall also saved weight and center of gravity. It is all beyond my understanding, but it sounds good. The Trace engine has all new parts and new suppliers of these parts. To be certified, every part has to have a traceable supply chain. The Trace is an all new engine. Or that is what they were saying. Tylor Hall It has always been interesting to watch the development process. On Mar 31, 2010, at 2:03 PM, nico css wrote: > --> > > Very insightful article. > > It immediately struck me that the moment of the additional weight on > the wing would be a killer, hanging an additional 660# 8 or 10 feet > ahead of the wing root. But the chart shows a comparable load and > torsion for a 550 hp V8 even if one adds in a 100# extra for the > turbos, no? > > Why would that be a bad combination? Is there anything in a study > somewhere about the vibration that folks experienced with the Orenda > or other conversions? Gut-feel tells me that the GM engine would be > smoother. I don't know why. Perhaps higher RPM? > > Nico > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Bichier > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:58 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP > > --> > > For those of us who are not so cyber educated, just go to: > > http://www.epi-eng.com/ > > then on the left side you'll find "Aircraft Engine Conversions" > > then on #4 you have "Evaluating the Wisdom of an Engine Conversion" > > and finally scroll down to the bottom: "An Extremely Bad Example" > > ... which seem to completely shoot themselves on the foot with all the > 685 photos... although the Orenda exists, so somehow Mr Macoon made it > work, just don't know what was the payload or any of the other specs. > > -------- > 560 Dreamer > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292558#292558 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Need Rudder Bracket
Date: Apr 02, 2010
Esteemed Commander Experts, I am in need of a lower rudder hinge assembly (bracket) Part No. 5420014-129 for my 680F. Anybody have one, or know of a source..?? Thanks very much. Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Need Rudder Bracket
From: white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com
Date: Apr 03, 2010
I think I have one on my parts plane. Give a call at 805 231-3236 Craig Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:09:34 Subject: Commander-List: Need Rudder Bracket This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
From: "Peter Bichier" <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Date: Apr 07, 2010
Hey Commanders, For those of you who are EAA members there is a great article in this April issue (don't know if you would be able to see it): http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201004?pg=2&pm=2&fs=1#pg42 A couple of guys geared a 427 Chevy onto a Velocity (4 seater canard) and claim that they match the weight of a IO-540 (including the weight of the 2 radiators and 2 alternators: 430 lbs including the prop) but are getting 450 HP. It's also a retractable gear, so they have a hydraulic system, and reach 200 kts on 15 gph. some pictures: http://www.eaa.org/apps/galleries/gallery.aspx?ID=299 They even had to build their own reduction gear box (cause the factory one only lasted 8hrs...) Great article showing how some amateurs can come up with really ingenious tricks to make a great flying machine. They have at least 100 hrs flying with it, hope it's an inspiration for other folks who believe in a good old small block V8! [quote="nico(at)cybersuperstore.c"]This always intrigued me. Why would the aviation environment be so harsh on an engine. The 350 Chevy engine is a pretty robust engine, easily lasting 100,000 miles and at about 55 mph, it should be good for about 1,800 hours. Granted, it doesn't run at 75% power all the time, but all sorts of things seem to go wrong with an automobile engine as soon as they drop it into the nose or onto the wing of a plane. Any thoughts? -------- 560 Dreamer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293434#293434 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2010
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Peter Bichier wrote: > hope it's an inspiration for other folks who believe in a good old small block V8! > well....sorta.... It's a Dart very high-end aluminum racing engine. They are not what you'd find in the junkyard Chevy for sure unless you're buying salvage from nascar. chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: FW: Courage
Date: Apr 07, 2010
Courage. You're a 19 year old kid. You're critically wounded and dying in the jungle somewhere in the Central Highlands of Viet Nam . It's November 11, 1967. LZ (landing zone) X-ray. Your unit is outnumbered 8-1 and the enemy fire is so intense, from 100 yards away, that your CO (commanding officer) has ordered the MedEvac helicopters to stop coming in. You're lying there, listening to the enemy machine guns and you know you're not getting out. Your family is half way around the world, 12,000 miles away, and you'll never see them again. As the world starts to fade in and out, you know this is the day. Then - over the machine gun noise - you faintly hear that sound of a helicopter. You look up to see a Huey coming in. But ... It doesn't seem real because no MedEvac markings are on it. Captain Ed Freeman is coming in for you. He's not MedEvac so it's not his job, but he heard the radio call and decided he's flying his Huey down into the machine gun fire anyway. Even after the MedEvacs were ordered not to come. He's coming anyway. And he drops it in and sits there in the machine gun fire, as they load 3 of you at a time on board. Then he flies you up and out through the gunfire to the doctors and nurses and safety. And, he kept coming back!! 13 more times!! Until all the wounded were out. No one knew until the mission was over that the Captain had been hit 4 times in the legs and left arm. He took 29 of you and your buddies out that day. Some would not have made it without the Captain and his Huey. Medal of Honor Recipient, Captain Ed Freeman, United States Air Force, died recently at the age of 70, in Boise , Idaho . May God Bless and Rest His Soul. I bet you didn't hear about this hero's passing, but we've sure seen a whole bunch about Michael Jackson and Tiger Woods. Medal of Honor Winner Captain Ed Freeman Shame on the American media !!! Now ... YOU pass this along to YOUR mailing list. Honor this real American. Please. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 07, 2010
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Good Evening JB, I do not disagree with your premise, but I do think the R-3350 deserves a bit better press. We pulled 3200 HP out of ours and a few versions developed 3500 HP. Our 3200 HP engines had earned a TBO of 3500 hours after only about ten years in service. The DC-7 and Super Connies equipped with Turbo Compound R-3350s get terrible press based on reports from folks who flew them when they were not being operated as they were designed to be operated. That engine had to be run in the regime that is now referred to as Lean Of Peak. Run it with a rich mixture and you would burn it up. It was a great engine mounted to fine flying machines. We ran our R-2800s for over 3600 between overhauls and they gave us a takeoff power of 2500. Lots of pretty good piston powered airplanes out there. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/7/2010 9:38:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, yourtcfg(at)aol.com writes: The reason is exactly what you said. A 350 chevy only uses about 25-30% of its rated power to last 100,00 miles. In marine applications, even with beefed up inererd, they only last the equivalent of 40,000 miles. It boils down to horsepower over cubic inches. The best airplane engines made had a ratio of about 1/2 HP for each CID (Lyc 0-032 = 150HP, Cont )-470 = 230 HP, P&W R-985 = 450 HP). When aviation engines exceed these parameters, we in the industry call them troubled engines (TIGSO-520 = 435 HP, GTSO 540 = 380 HP, R3350 = 2500HP). The TBO goes way down, from 2000 to 1200, in some cases even less, and many times they don't make that!! The P-51 Mustang engine is a R.R. V1610 and makes 1500 HP, for about 250 hours. That is the military TBO!! If only there was some magic. But alas, the numbers will almost always tell the outcome. jb -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2010 6:58 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP Good Evening Peter, Beautiful airplane. At what altitude are they getting the 230 MPH on 15 GPH? Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
From: "TRACE" <david(at)traceengines.com>
Date: Apr 08, 2010
I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACEs point of view but as an engine guy as well. 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fuel injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be found at www.mrrpm.com There is rate of climb and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and these are actual numbers. 3.) Profound vibration issues are unfounded. The engine has been designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again minimize any vibration. 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates into 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106 three bladed McCauley. 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balance. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial. 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to final deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The sleeves are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. These liners can be bored to 0.010, 0.020 or 0.030 at overhauls if required. 7.) it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental New technology is never cheaper especially when it is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isnt even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essentially you get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You dont get that with either Lycoming or Continental. 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically runs 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to lead generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is also much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowing evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of the engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far superior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE has an intensely tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing order, so torsional vibration wont be an issue. The high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors its not really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much more that goes into a TRACE engine. We wont even mention the liability insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I can be reached at david(at)traceengines.com Thanks, David Czarnecki Chief Operating Officer TRACE Engines, L.P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Girod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Apr 08, 2010
Thanks for the article David, I enjoyed the learning experience. Don -------------------------------------------------- From: "TRACE" <david(at)traceengines.com> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 1:49 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP > > I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up > some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACE?Ts point of > view but as an engine guy as well. > > 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We > have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic > fuel injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat > products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. > > 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be > found at www.mrrpm.com There is rate of climb and true air speed > information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and > these are actual numbers. > > 3.) ?oProfound vibration issues? are unfounded. The engine has been > designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much > as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing > order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods > and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again > minimize any vibration. > > 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The > TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates > into 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows > large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106? three > bladed McCauley. > > 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in > development and weight is always a consideration along with proper > balance. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs > compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is > also crucial. > > 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and > making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all > the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to > final deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid > nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a > furnace. The sleeves are then retained in position while they cool to > prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not > allow movement. These liners can be bored to 0.010?, 0.020? or > 0.030? at overhauls if required. > > 7.) ?o?it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming > or Continental?? New technology is never cheaper especially when it > is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isn?Tt > even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same > cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new > technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are > serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. > Essentially you get piston powered operating costs with turbine > performance. You don?Tt get that with either Lycoming or Continental. > > 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. > The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine > is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy > operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing > when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically > runs 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly > to lead generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric > flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling > scheme is also much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder > head and flowing evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at > the center of the engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE > engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. > It is a far superior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I > stated before, TRACE has an intensely ! > tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing > order, so torsional vibration won?Tt be an issue. The high loading on > the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has > six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines typically has four > bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components for aviation > use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better > overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors it?Ts not > really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality > results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much > more that goes into a TRACE engine. We won?Tt even mention the liability > insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. > I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you > have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or > interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I > can be reached at david(at)traceengines.com > > Thanks, > David Czarnecki > Chief Operating Officer > TRACE Engines, L.P. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524 > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 14:32:00 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Apr 08, 2010
Hi David: Thank you for that informative piece. It's not often that we get the man on the spot to give us the information from the source. However, now that we have you on the line, we are going to tap your brain a little bit, which is a privilege. There is something that still doesn't click well, which is the firing order thing. The older V8's had a firing order of 1 5 4 8 6 3 7 2, which, if you look closely, fires on alternate banks except 8 and 6. If, and that's the gray area which you may be able to fill in, firing 6 and 8 successively on the same bank is the culprit causing torsional vibration, how did Trace solve the problem without creating a new crank with different crank (throw) angles, which would involve new counterweight technology, and perhaps cause a whole host of other problems? Wouldn't a dynamic coupler, like Diamond is using with the new Mercedes diesels, fitted between the crank and the reduction box have been a more effective solution? Or is the new firing order also causing a longer TBO? Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TRACE Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACEs point of view but as an engine guy as well. 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fuel injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be found at www.mrrpm.com There is rate of climb and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and these are actual numbers. 3.) Profound vibration issues are unfounded. The engine has been designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again minimize any vibration. 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates into 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106 three bladed McCauley. 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balance. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial. 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to final deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The sleeves are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. These liners can be bored to 0.010, 0.020 or 0.030 at overhauls if required. 7.) it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental New technology is never cheaper especially when it is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isnt even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essentially you get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You dont get that with either Lycoming or Continental. 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically runs 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to lead generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is also much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowing evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of the engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far superior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE has an intensely ! tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing order, so torsional vibration wont be an issue. The high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors its not really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much more that goes into a TRACE engine. We wont even mention the liability insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I can be reached at david(at)traceengines.com Thanks, David Czarnecki Chief Operating Officer TRACE Engines, L.P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 08, 2010
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
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From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Apr 08, 2010
Bill, I would hope it would keep running? :) Did I see a video of you landing on a road in Wi? David, Thank you for joining our merry group. You have a lot more detailed information than I could relate. I have always enjoyed listening to Dick talk about the engine development. I know total weight was a big thing with make it all work. The Thunder engine was just a start. The Orinda took it to the next step that was Certified . It appears that the Trace is a whole another higher level. I do not know or totally understand all the changes, but it sounds like real progress. We love hearing about any new developments. Bill, what would 750HP Trace do to your T-6? Would it become a T-7.5? Tylor Hall On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:29 PM, BillLeff1(at)aol.com wrote: > Hey guys, I flew the first test flights of the Orenda 685, yea that is me in the video. I thought is was extremely smooth. There was a problem at idle but I understand that was fixed. It was a problem in fuel metering. The biggest problem on the first flight was it had too much cooling! > > Best of luck to Trace Engines. Anything can stand improvement but, I thing they had a great engine to start with. By the way, my 600HP Pratt & Whiteny weighs 885 lbs. Think what a light weight Trace "Orenda" would do on my T-6! > > Bill Leff > > In a message dated 4/8/2010 1:50:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, david(at)traceengines.com writes: > > I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACE=C3=A2=82 =AC=84=A2s point of view but as an engine guy as well. > > 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fuel injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. > > 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be found at www.mrrpm.com There is rate of climb and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and these are actual numbers. > > 3.) =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Profound vibration issues=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D are unfounded. The engine has been designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again minimize any vibration. > > 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates into 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D three bladed McCauley. > > 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balance. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial. > > 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to final deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The sleeves are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. These liners can be bored to 0.010=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D , 0.020=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D or 0.030=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D at overhauls if required. > > 7.) =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93=C3=A2=82=AC=C2it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental=C3=A2=82=AC=C2 =C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D New technology is never cheaper especially when it is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essentially you get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t get that with either Lycoming or Continental. > > 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically runs 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to lead generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is also much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowing evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of the engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far superior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE has an intensely tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing order, so torsional vibration won=C3=A2=82 =AC=84=A2t be an issue. The high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors it=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2s not really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much more that goes into a TRACE engine. We won=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 t even mention the liability insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. > I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I can be reached at david(at)traceengines.com > > Thanks, > David Czarnecki > Chief Operating Officer > TRACE Engines, L.P. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524===== ================ ======================= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================= - List Contribution Web Site sp; > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 12, 2010
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Yes that was me! Bill leff In a message dated 4/8/2010 11:48:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tylorhall(at)mac.com writes: Bill, I would hope it would keep running? :) Did I see a video of you landing on a road in Wi? David, Thank you for joining our merry group. You have a lot more detailed information than I could relate. I have always enjoyed listening to Dick talk about the engine development . I know total weight was a big thing with make it all work. The Thunder engine was just a start. The Orinda took it to the next step that was Certified . It appears that the Trace is a whole another highe r level. I do not know or totally understand all the changes, but it sound s like real progress. We love hearing about any new developments. Bill, what would 750HP Trace do to your T-6? Would it become a T-7.5? Tylor Hall On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:29 PM, _BillLeff1(at)aol.com_ (mailto:BillLeff1(at)aol.com) wrote: Hey guys, I flew the first test flights of the Orenda 685, yea that is me in the video. I thought is was extremely smooth. There was a problem at idle but I understand that was fixed. It was a problem in fuel metering. The biggest problem on the first flight was it had too much cooling! Best of luck to Trace Engines. Anything can stand improvement but, I thin g they had a great engine to start with. By the way, my 600HP Pratt & Whiteny weighs 885 lbs. Think what a light weight Trace "Orenda" would do on my T-6! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/8/2010 1:50:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _david(at)traceengines.com_ (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com) writes: (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com) > I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACE=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2s point of view but as an engine guy as well. 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fu el injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be found at _www.mrrpm.com_ (http://www.mrrpm.com/) There is rate of clim b and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and these are actual numbers. 3.) =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Profound vibration issues=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D are unfounded. The engine has been designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again mini mize any vibration. 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates in to 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106=C3=A2=82=AC =C2=9D three bladed McCauley. 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balanc e. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial. 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to fina l deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The slee ves are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. Thes e liners can be bored to 0.010=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D, 0.020=C3=A2=82=AC=C2 =9D or 0.030=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D at overhauls if required. 7.) =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93=C3=A2=82=AC=C2it was never going to be ch eap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D New technology is never cheaper especially when it is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isn=C3=A2 =82=AC=84=A2t even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which ar e serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essential ly you get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You don=C3 =A2=82=AC=84=A2t get that with either Lycoming or Continental. 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producin g when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically run s 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to le ad generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is als o much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowin g evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of th e engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far super ior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE has an intensely tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing order, so torsional vibration won=C3=A2=82=AC=84 =A2t be an issue. The high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engi nes typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined com ponents for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors it=C3=A2 =82=AC=84=A2s not really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much more that goes into a TRACE engine. We won=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t even mention the liability insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I can be reached at _david(at)traceengines.com_ (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com) Thanks, David Czarnecki Chief Operating Officer TRACE Engines, L.P. Read this topic online here: _http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524==== ====== Use the ties Day ==================== === - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================= - List Contribution Web Site sp; _ (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524==== ==================) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "kitepilot(at)kitepilot.com" <kitepilot(at)kitepilot.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Apr 12, 2010
And now that the controversy is flying... :) What'bout: http://www.mistral-engines.com/ I would DROOL over a twincommander with those engines. If they work... ET PS: I DROOL over twincommanders period... BillLeff1(at)aol.com writes: > Yes that was me! > > Bill leff > > > In a message dated 4/8/2010 11:48:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > tylorhall(at)mac.com writes: > > Bill, > I would hope it would keep running? > :) > Did I see a video of you landing on a road in Wi? > > > David, > Thank you for joining our merry group. You have a lot more detailed > information than I could relate. > I have always enjoyed listening to Dick talk about the engine development. > I know total weight was a big thing with make it all work. > The Thunder engine was just a start. The Orinda took it to the next step > that was Certified . It appears that the Trace is a whole another higher > level. I do not know or totally understand all the changes, but it sounds > like real progress. > We love hearing about any new developments. > > > Bill, what would 750HP Trace do to your T-6? Would it become a T-7.5? > > > > > > Tylor Hall > > > > > > > On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:29 PM, _BillLeff1(at)aol.com_ (mailto:BillLeff1(at)aol.com) > wrote: > > > > Hey guys, I flew the first test flights of the Orenda 685, yea that is me > in the video. I thought is was extremely smooth. There was a problem at > idle but I understand that was fixed. It was a problem in fuel metering. The > biggest problem on the first flight was it had too much cooling! > > Best of luck to Trace Engines. Anything can stand improvement but, I thing > they had a great engine to start with. By the way, my 600HP Pratt & > Whiteny weighs 885 lbs. Think what a light weight Trace "Orenda" would do on my > T-6! > > Bill Leff > > > In a message dated 4/8/2010 1:50:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > _david(at)traceengines.com_ (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com) writes: > > (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com) > > > I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up > some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACEs point of > view but as an engine guy as well. > > 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We > have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fuel > injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products, > though we can build custom engines to the right application. > > 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be > found at _www.mrrpm.com_ (http://www.mrrpm.com/) There is rate of climb > and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know > Dick very well and these are actual numbers. > > 3.) Profound vibration issues are unfounded. The engine has been > designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as > possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing > order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods and > pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again minimize > any vibration. > > 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The > TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates into > 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large > range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106 three bladed > McCauley. > > 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in > development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balance. > One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to a > standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial. > > 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and > making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the > way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to final > deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and > installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The sleeves > are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement. > The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. These > liners can be bored to 0.010, 0.020 or 0.030 at overhauls if > required. > > 7.) it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming > or Continental New technology is never cheaper especially when it > is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isnt > even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic > inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new > technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are > serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essentially you > get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You dont > get that with either Lycoming or Continental. > > 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. > The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine > is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy > operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing when > driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically runs > 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to lead > generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of a > typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is also > much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowing > evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of the > engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to > our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far superior > thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE > has an intensely tighter balance specification on all rotating components > and unique firing order, so torsional vibration wont be an issue. The > high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine > components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines > typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components > for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which > produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors it > s not really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to > quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much > more that goes into a TRACE engine. We wont even mention the liability > insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. > I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you > have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or > interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I can be > reached at _david(at)traceengines.com_ (mailto:david(at)traceengines.com) > > Thanks, > David Czarnecki > Chief Operating Officer > TRACE Engines, L.P. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > _http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524========== Use > the ties Day ======================= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS > ======================= - List Contribution Web Site sp; = > > _ > (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524======================) > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > > > > > > > href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Space Station
Date: Apr 12, 2010
Incredible video (to me, at least) http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=H8rHarp1GEE ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
From: "TRACE" <david(at)traceengines.com>
Date: Apr 12, 2010
> There is something that still doesn't click well, which is the firing order thing. The older V8's had a firing order of 1 5 4 8 6 3 7 2, which, if you look closely, fires on alternate banks except 8 and 6. If, and that's the gray area which you may be able to fill in, firing 6 and 8 successively on the same bank is the culprit causing torsional vibration, how did Trace solve the problem without creating a new crank with different crank (throw) angles, which would involve new counterweight technology, and perhaps cause a whole host of other problems? > > Wouldn't a dynamic coupler, like Diamond is using with the new Mercedes diesels, fitted between the crank and the reduction box have been a more effective solution? Or is the new firing order also causing a longer TBO? To address this question, I sat down with my Director of Engineering. First if you look at the engines from the same perspective our firing order would be 1-8-7-5-4-3-6-2. That isn't hugely significant in itself. What is is the degrees apart of firing on the same journal. An old Chevy for example fires 270 degrees apart on the same journal. The TRACE fires at 90 degrees on the same journal, which dampens out torsionals. That is the case for 3 of the four journals, which is the best you are going to get no matter what. We have found you can get more vibration from the prop than the engine. That is why every pairing of engine and prop has vibe surveys done before installation into an aircraft. Thanks, David Czarnecki Chief Operating Officer TRACE Engines L.P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294015#294015 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Trace Engines LP
Date: Apr 12, 2010
Thank you for the trouble you took to explain that, David. It's interesting that the cylinders firing successively on the same bank doesn't appear to be that big of a problem, then. The TRACE FO seems to hit the banks LRRRLLRL, which appears to lack the rhythm of regular V8's such as LRLLRLRR or LRLRRLRL, where you have a RL splitting the LL and the RR; and a LR splitting them on the other side or vice versa. Oh, well, I wouldn't know for sure. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the "at 90 degrees on the same journal" statement. Does that mean the V-angle was changed and/or the crank was changed from cross-plane to flat-plane? Wouldn't the latter be lighter? I'd love to pack that into a simulator and see how a journal would be able to fire at 90 degrees hanging two cylinders off of it at an angle. My gut-feel, which is nothing to go by, would suggest that it would be almost a boxer (HO) engine. Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TRACE Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:42 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP > There is something that still doesn't click well, which is the firing order thing. The older V8's had a firing order of 1 5 4 8 6 3 7 2, which, if you look closely, fires on alternate banks except 8 and 6. If, and that's the gray area which you may be able to fill in, firing 6 and 8 successively on the same bank is the culprit causing torsional vibration, how did Trace solve the problem without creating a new crank with different crank (throw) angles, which would involve new counterweight technology, and perhaps cause a whole host of other problems? > > Wouldn't a dynamic coupler, like Diamond is using with the new Mercedes diesels, fitted between the crank and the reduction box have been a more effective solution? Or is the new firing order also causing a longer TBO? To address this question, I sat down with my Director of Engineering. First if you look at the engines from the same perspective our firing order would be 1-8-7-5-4-3-6-2. That isn't hugely significant in itself. What is is the degrees apart of firing on the same journal. An old Chevy for example fires 270 degrees apart on the same journal. The TRACE fires at 90 degrees on the same journal, which dampens out torsionals. That is the case for 3 of the four journals, which is the best you are going to get no matter what. We have found you can get more vibration from the prop than the engine. That is why every pairing of engine and prop has vibe surveys done before installation into an aircraft. Thanks, David Czarnecki Chief Operating Officer TRACE Engines L.P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294015#294015 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 685s
From: "n395v" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2010
I note that there are 4 685s for sale on the Controller and one on Trade A Plane. That must be the entire remaining airborne fleet. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294060#294060 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 2010
Subject: Re: 685s
From: Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
No Milt, Your old one is still up in Nevada... How the hell are you? Cheers Russell On 13/4/10 10:36 PM, "n395v" wrote: > > I note that there are 4 685s for sale on the Controller and one on Trade A > Plane. That must be the entire remaining airborne fleet. > > -------- > Milt > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294060#294060 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 685s
From: "n395v" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Apr 15, 2010
Doin great Russel as I hope are you. My old 685 is one of the 5 for sale. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294305#294305 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wiliam Boelte" <n55bz(at)cox.net>
Subject: AIRFORCE ONE
Date: Apr 16, 2010
See the link for an article on the movement of Commander Air Force One to its new home in Houma, LA. http://www.houmatoday.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=HC&Date 100415& Category=ARTICLES&ArtNo=100419633&Ref=AR&Profile=1211 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wiliam Boelte" <n55bz(at)cox.net>
Subject: Fw: AIRFORCE ONE
Date: Apr 16, 2010
This link is for the article http://www.houmatoday.com/article/20100415/ARTICLES/100419633/1211?Title= Retired-Air-Force-One-plane-will-be-on-display-in-Houma# ----- Original Message ----- From: Wiliam Boelte Sent: Friday, 16 April, 2010 09:52 Subject: AIRFORCE ONE See the link for an article on the movement of Commander Air Force One to its new home in Houma, LA. http://www.houmatoday.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=HC&Date 100415& Category=ARTICLES&ArtNo=100419633&Ref=AR&Profile=1211 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commanders
Date: Apr 17, 2010
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere (Paris, TX), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2010
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Commanders
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ________________________________ From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ________________________________ From:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 18, 2010
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2010
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Old Bob, I believe in the LOP process, but need to dial in the flow per cylinder first for this pair of engines. The right just runs rough LOP so I have a ways to go. GAMI was willing to take on my IGO-540's, just have no experience with them yet. At 22 inches and 2600 rpm, I still burn 19 gph on the left and 22 gph on the right. Both servos and distributors were overhauled by the same outfit, and the injectors are all new. The left just needs cylinder #2 injector slightly smaller. The right is defying tuning. Going to have to pull the right servo and distributor and send it back. Then start all over! Had to do that on the left to get it right. It's just no fun as it's mighty crowded in there. All part of the joy of an old plane, new engines, and prior owners who just didn't keep the ol gal up to snuff. Overall the list is getting shorter every day and and I can use 747H safely and reliably now. Fun flying, Craig ________________________________ From: "BobsV35B(at)aol.com" <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> Sent: Sun, April 18, 2010 5:27:50 AM Subject: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure > is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been > sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping > all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 > cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of > times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon > drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the > injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a > IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and > the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has > anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running > them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! > >Annual coming late summer so I'm > collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should > finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time > for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. > My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane > investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time > this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I > put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... > >Craig > > ________________________________ From: cybersuperstore > >To: > commander-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 > PM >Subject: RE: > Commander-List: Re: Commanders > > > >I lost my Outlook on > my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I > am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that > told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading > 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to > clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders > while I am at it. > >Yesterday I stopped > over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see > familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except > to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a > year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but > cannot be sure. > >Craig, is she still > under your command? > >Thanks > >Nico > > > ________________________________ >From:> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy >Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 > AM >To: > commander-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Commander-List: Re: > Commanders > >Hello > gang, > >Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, > stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is > running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at > Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. > Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be > up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get > together. > >Craig > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >http://forums.matronics.com/ >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > >=================================== >t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=================================== >ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com >=================================== >tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=================================== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2010
Subject: Simply the Best
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (MacbookPro)" <deneals(at)deneals.com>
<http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Simply-the-Best.html?utm_sourc e=airandspacenewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign 100420-airandspace> <http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Simply-the-Best.html?utm_sourc e=airandspacenewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign 100420-airandspace> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 21, 2010
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Date: Apr 21, 2010
Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig _____ From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2010
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
BillLeff1(at)aol.com wrote: > As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for > it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. Can you elaborate on that statement Bill? Given that LOP results in lower temps and pressures, I can't see where the extra material comes into play. thanks chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Date: Apr 21, 2010
Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List============= =======================ms.m atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n======================== ============ ===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List============= =======================ms.m atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n======================== ============ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Date: Apr 21, 2010
HI BILL, FUEL TO AIR MIXTURE IS IDEAL FOR COMBUSTION AT 15 TO 1 (FOUND AT ROP). ONCE YOU GO LOP YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD THROTLE TO GET THE SAME ENGINE POWER AS ROP BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW THE IDEAL IS A 15 TO 1 AIR TO FUEL RATIO AT ROP.I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAVE FUEL USING THE SAME POWER (PERFORMANCE.THEREFORE .AIR SPEED ) LOP VS ROP. THERE ARE OTHER ENGINE LIFE CONSIDERATONS. I HOPE I HAV'NT CONFUSED ALL THE MANY HERESAY REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A CENTURY, . LLOYD ----- Original Message ----- From: cybersuperstore<mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List>http://forums.matronics.com onics.com/>http://www.matronics.com/contribution /contribution> ===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List============= =======================ms.m atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n======================== ============ ===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List============= =======================ms.m atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n======================== ============ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Good Evening Bill, I guess if you have that much experience with your engines and are happy with what you have there is no need to change. And I agree, operating at high power and Peak EGT is rarely a good idea. If that is what the Commander folks recommend, I am surprised. Fifty rich of peak EGT is about the hottest spot you could operate. Personally, if I wanted to use seventy-five percent power or more, I would run more like 150 to 200 rich of peak EGT. Once again, all of this assumes good distribution, if the distribution is poor 150 to 200 rich is the better compromise, but it ain't good! However, any engine can be operated lean of peak if it has well balanced fuel distribution. There are limits and there are conditions. There is absolutely nothing about a Pratt and Whitney or a Curtiss Wright that makes them capable of lean operations other than they have the means to get an even distribution of fuel to each cylinder. I have not ran any of the large geared Lycomings for many years, but they told us then and tell us now that we can't hurt the engine with the mixture control, so I always felt comfortable experimenting. When I found that I had good distribution, I would often run on the lean side of best power. If the power available was adequate for my needs, it not only saved fuel, but the engines ran cooler and cleaner just like those Curtiss Wright engineers said they would. Same thing goes for any engine. There is no magic and this information is not new. Lindbergh used it and it worked well for him. What is wrong with running cleaner and cooler? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/21/2010 6:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BillLeff1(at)aol.com writes: Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _
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From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Good Evening Lloyd, The 15 (Some folks say 16) to one ratio is the stoichiometric mixture, No excess air and no excess fuel. If we run richer than stoichiometric, that is by definition on the rich side, If we run leaner than stoichiometric, that is, by definition on the lean side. You will get the same speed at the same horsepower if you are rich of peak EGT or lean of peak EGT. As you state, it will require more manifold pressure to get the same horsepower LOP as ROP so in that case you are correct. However, It is possible under many conditions to get that same horsepower at a different BSFC. The key to economical operation is to be able to operate at or very close to Best BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) Best BSFC is where all of the fuel that is being supplied has plenty of air to combine with and there is extra air to be heated and provide more power per pound of fuel.If we want to get the most power we can for each molecule of oxygen available, we need to throw enough fuel at the fire such that every last little bit of air gets burned. That is called Best Power. At best power, we are burning a lot more fuel per horsepower than we would be if we were running on the lean side of best power. For most modern light plane engines, best BSFC occurs somewhere between twenty degrees Fahrenheit lean of Peak EGT and eighty Degrees lean of peak EGT, The higher powers require the greatest amount lean, but the engine may not be able to provide that power due to cooling needs, At power settings of 65 per cent or so, best BSFC is close to thirty degrees F lean of peak EGT. There is no one size fits all answer. You have to decide what it is you want from the engine. If you wish to use high horsepower (above 65 to 70 percent power, you need to throw a LOT of fuel on the fire or the engine will get hot. There are exceptions, but that is good ball park starting point. As Always, It All Depends. Life is NOT simple. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/21/2010 9:56:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time, LLOYDSSS11(at)msn.com writes: HI BILL, FUEL TO AIR MIXTURE IS IDEAL FOR COMBUSTION AT 15 TO 1 (FOUND AT ROP). ONCE YOU GO LOP YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD THROTLE TO GET THE SAME ENGINE POWER AS ROP BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW THE IDEAL IS A 15 TO 1 AIR TO FUEL RATIO AT ROP.I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAVE FUEL USING THE SAME POWER (PERFORMANCE.THEREFORE .AIR SPEED ) LOP VS ROP. THERE ARE OTHER ENGINE LIFE CONSIDERATONS. I HOPE I HAV'NT CONFUSED ALL THE MANY HERESAY REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A CENTURY, . LLOYD ----- Original Message ----- From: _cybersuperstore_ (mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Date: Apr 22, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewh ere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when ru nning LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we di scussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compens ate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubr icated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premat ure engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's somet hing to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of gr een colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirt s directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomi zed and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT fro m cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is diffe rent due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder sep arately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretic ally, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more mea t" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP ha ve little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said tha t the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to jus tify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done ev ery overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know ever y operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ra n lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@ aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occ asionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no ha rm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last six ty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good dis tribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Cur tiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cyl inder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If yo u can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believ er in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_ rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns ou t those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gal lon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IG O-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to re place the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Com manders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to wo rk but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sa le, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from mo re than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certai n that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-comm ander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored fo r over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again wi th rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a gr eat job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more da ys to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2010
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford! Craig ________________________________ From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ________________________________ From:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: > >> >Good Morning Craig, > >> > >> >My experience with > any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side > of peak EGT. >> > >> >Back when I was > flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those > engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not > have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further > knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that > LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good > distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a > power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on > the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate > LOP. >> > >> >I am certainly no > engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in > the spring of 1954. >> > >> >They made the same > points that are now presented by the GAMI > folks. >> > >> >I am a believer, but > you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the > proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the > seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home > study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there > twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! > ) >> > >> >Happy > Skies, >> > >> >Old > Bob >> >AKA >> >Bob > Siegfried >> >BrookeridgeAir Park >> >Downers > Grove, Illinois >> >Stearman > N3977A >> > >> >> >In a message dated > 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com > writes: >>> >>>> >>>> >>Sure is >> Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting >> out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all >> the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent >> cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of >> times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon >> drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the >> injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a >> IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and >> the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has >> anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running >> them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! >> >>>>Annual coming late summer so >> I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that >> should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is >> the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and >> bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the >> best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot >> of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more >> action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all >> looky-loos.... >> >>>>Craig >>>> >> ________________________________ >>From:cybersuperstore >> >>To: commander-list(at)matronics.com >>Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 >> PM >>Subject: RE: >> Commander-List: Re: Commanders >>>> >>I lost my Outlook >> on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. >> So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data >> that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started >> downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the >> opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their >> respected folders while I am at it. >> >>Yesterday I stopped >> over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk >> around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't >> thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw >> this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen >> 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. >> >>Craig, is she still >> under your command? >> >>Thanks >> >>Nico >> >> >>>> >> ________________________________ >>From:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy >>Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 >> AM >>To: commander-list(at)matronics.com >>Subject: Commander-List: Re: >> Commanders >> >>>> >>Hello >> gang, >> >>>>Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, >> stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt >> engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job >> getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to >> tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and >> adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get >> together. >> >>>>Craig >> >> >> >>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >>http://forums.matronics.com/ >>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>=================================== >>t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >>=================================== >>ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com >>=================================== >>tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>=================================== >> > > >=================================== >t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >=================================== >ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com >=================================== >tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >=================================== > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =================================== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ttp://forums.matronics.com =================================== ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Date: Apr 22, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. You're not doing partial power take-offs, are you? That can cause some of the damage you're describing by not allowing the enrichening schedule of the fuel flow at high throttle settings. Or, if you're pushing the levers all the way up, the fuel scheduling for high power settings may no t be set and you're running too lean at take-off. It's already been mentioned in this thread that you may have valve problem s on the side that has to run RoP. I should probable sit here with my mouth shut and sit on my hands ... I've been operating Garrett 731 engines so long that I've forgotten just about everything I ever knew about piston engines. It's nice to have someone else pay for the operating cost of an engine controlled by a computer. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:18 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IG O-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distrib utor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhaul s. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea , but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the met hod... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP method ology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford! Craig From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewh ere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when ru nning LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we di scussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compens ate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubr icated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premat ure engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's somet hing to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of gr een colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirt s directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomi zed and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT fro m cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is diffe rent due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder sep arately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretic ally, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more mea t" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP ha ve little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said tha t the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to jus tify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done ev ery overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know ever y operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ra n lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@ aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occ asionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no ha rm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last six ty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good dis tribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Cur tiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cyl inder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If yo u can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believ er in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_ rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns ou t those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gal lon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IG O-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to re place the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Com manders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to wo rk but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sa le, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from mo re than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certai n that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-comm ander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored fo r over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again wi th rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a gr eat job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more da ys to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com/ http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ttp://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
From: white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com
Date: Apr 22, 2010
Nope. Full power. Full rich. Just watch CHT to keep it below 400. I fly in southern CA so I watch temp s closely. Craig Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 01:34:50 Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Good Morning Craig, Just remember that 25 to 50 ROP EGT is just about e hottest place you can run your engine. If you are seeing heat related problems, it will be from running too close to that hot spot. If you have poor distribution you want to run a LOT richer to make sure the leanest cylinder is rich enough to avoid that hot spot. If the distribution is perfect, you can run leaner than peak and run cleaner and cooler Cleaner and cooler makes for a longer lived engine. Most engine heat related damage comes from the engine running too lean at takeoff and other high power regimes. If you do not feel comfortable running lean, be sure you run rich enough to avoid that hot spot located fifty degrees on the rich side. At any power above 65 percent, fifty rich is the worst place you can operate. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:23:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford! Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KenWHyde(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's?? Thanks, Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2010
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: mixture technique
Well it is good to see that the group has come to agreement on mixture tech nique.- We all have one and yours sticks:-))) - dan farmer 6369U/500DF=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Good Morning Ken, The principles apply equally to all internal combustion engines from lawn mower engines to Turbo Compound marvels. The devil is in the details. If you have good fuel distribution whose fire is lit efficiently, LOP works very well. If there are distribution or ignition problems, an over rich mixture may allow suitable operations at the expense of wasting fuel and running dirty. The first order of business is always the same. Find out how good is the fuel distribution and check as to how well the fire is lit. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/22/2010 8:15:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com writes: Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's?? Thanks, Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KenWHyde(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Thanks Bob, I have the Gami's & JPI but have not had the time to really play with it on the Commander. Spent few years on the 1049G, DC-7, DC-6's and it was SOP. Went to the Lycoming school...they are not happy people about Gami or LOP. Ken In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:49:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes: Good Morning Ken, The principles apply equally to all internal combustion engines from lawn mower engines to Turbo Compound marvels. The devil is in the details. If you have good fuel distribution whose fire is lit efficiently, LOP works very well. If there are distribution or ignition problems, an over rich mixture may allow suitable operations at the expense of wasting fuel and running dirty. The first order of business is always the same. Find out how good is the fuel distribution and check as to how well the fire is lit. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/22/2010 8:15:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com writes: Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's?? Thanks, Ken (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2010
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Now Operating LOP
Old Bob, I lumped a few things together there. I don't operate any engine at that heat point. This was what I found when I took the engines apart 2 years ago. I had not operated them, but had just purchased the plane. The left failed 2.5 hours into the ferry flight home. The right was in worse condition, just hadn't failed yet. I won't go into the mythical pre-purchase inspection and extensive annual allegedly performed which had not really been done. After rebuilding, I added the multi-probe EGT/CHT, FF, etc., to let me know what was really happening. We flow checked each nozzle to confirm. I run ROP now until I can get the flows closer together. I'll keep the 50 degree ROP hotspot in mind! Thanks for the help! Craig ________________________________ From: "BobsV35B(at)aol.com" <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 4:47:08 AM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Good Morning Craig, Just remember that 25 to 50 ROP EGT is just about e hottest place you can run your engine. If you are seeing heat related problems, it will be from running too close to that hot spot. If you have poor distribution you want to run a LOT richer to make sure the leanest cylinder is rich enough to avoid that hot spot. If the distribution is perfect, you can run leaner than peak and run cleaner and cooler Cleaner and cooler makes for a longer lived engine. Most engine heat related damage comes from the engine running too lean at takeoff and other high power regimes. If you do not feel comfortable running lean, be sure you run rich enough to avoid that hot spot located fifty degrees on the rich side. At any power above 65 percent, fifty rich is the worst place you can operate. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:23:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes: Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for > my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and > servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without > running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just > running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more > $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a > surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also > noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's > seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding > the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more > than I can afford! > >Craig > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Date: Apr 25, 2010
MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. THANKS,LLOYD ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Date: Apr 26, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
"Excessive" vibration will not be solved by dynamic balancing. Both engin es?? Check engine compression and propeller blade angles. Good luck. jb -----Original Message----- From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM> Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. TH ANKS,LLOYD ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2010
Subject: Re: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
From: Dan Wold <danwold(at)gmail.com>
Doctor, it hurts when I do this. Umm.. Don't do that? Cheers, DJW On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:25 AM, wrote: > "Excessive" vibration will not be solved by dynamic balancing. Both > engines?? Check engine compression and propeller blade angles. Good luck. > jb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM> > To: commander-list > Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm > Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM > > MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U > RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. > THANKS,LLOYD > > =================================== > t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > =================================== > tp://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 26, 2010
Subject: Re: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Good Morning Lloyd, I may be getting in on this late, but have you recently had work done on both engines? Vibrations such as you describe are often caused by a very conscientious mechanic who tightly secures every wire, hose, cable, and shaft that he can find. That stiffens the engine's connection to the fuselage and occasionally transmits vibrations at resonant RPM ranges. The reason we have flexible engine mounts, hoses, and wires instead of solid mounts and hard lines is to provide enough flexibility to allow the engine to wiggle when it wants to wiggle without wiggling the airframe. Just snipping a few Ty-Wraps may do the job. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/25/2010 11:38:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, yourtcfg(at)aol.com writes: "Excessive" vibration will not be solved by dynamic balancing. Both engines?? Check engine compression and propeller blade angles. Good luck. jb -----Original Message----- From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM> Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. THANKS,LLOYD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: ACLU onslaught
Date: Apr 26, 2010
The sad thing is that there are only a few people that want to do this. Please keep passing this on... cid:1.2868767658(at)web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com I AM HONORED TO DO THIS Did you know that the ACLU has filed a suit to have all military cross-shaped headstones removed and another suit to end prayer from the military completely. They're making great progress. The Navy Chaplains can no longer mention Jesus' name in prayer thanks to the retched ACLU and our new administration. I'm not breaking this one. If I get it a 1000 times, I'll forward it a 1000 times! Let us pray... cid:2.2868767658(at)web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com cid:3.2868767658(at)web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com cid:4.2868767658(at)web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com cid:5.2868767658(at)web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com cid:6.2868767658(at)web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com cid:7.2868767658(at)web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com cid:9.2868767658(at)web59911.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Prayer chain for our Military... Don't break it! Please send this on after a short prayer.. Prayer for our soldiers Don't break it! Prayer: 'Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands Protect them as they protect us Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they perform for us in our time of need. Amen.' Prayer Request: When you receive this, please stop for a moment and say a prayer for our troops around the world. There is nothing attached. Just send this to people in your address book. Do not let it stop with you. Of all the gifts you could give a Marine, Soldier, Sailor, Airman, & others deployed in harm's way, prayer is the very best one. GOD BLESS YOU FOR PASSING IT ON! __BARRACUDA_SIGN__ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Date: Apr 26, 2010
THANKSDAN. IT'S THE RIGHT ENGINE ONLY. ILL CHECK COMPRESSION AND BLADE ANGLES. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Wold<mailto:danwold(at)gmail.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM > Doctor, it hurts when I do this. Umm.. Don't do that? Cheers, DJW On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:25 AM, > wrote: > "Excessive" vibration will not be solved by dynamic balancing. Both > engines?? Check engine compression and propeller blade angles. Good luck. > jb > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lloyd silverman > > To: commander-list > > Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm > Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM > > MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U > RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. > THANKS,LLOYD > > > t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > > tp://forums.matronics.com > > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Date: Apr 26, 2010
Could it be a misfire? Injector or magneto? _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 4:13 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM THANKSDAN. IT'S THE RIGHT ENGINE ONLY. ILL CHECK COMPRESSION AND BLADE ANGLES. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Wold <mailto:danwold(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM Doctor, it hurts when I do this. Umm.. Don't do that? Cheers, DJW On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:25 AM, wrote: > "Excessive" vibration will not be solved by dynamic balancing. Both > engines?? Check engine compression and propeller blade angles. Good luck. > jb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM> > To: commander-list > Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm > Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM > > MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U > RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. > THANKS,LLOYD > > ========== > t" target=_blank>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > ========== > tp://forums.matronics.com > ========== > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > >nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Date: Apr 26, 2010
I got my prop back from the prop shop and the vibration was bad enough to do damage to the spinner and back plate. We were 50 miles off show when we discovered it. I managed to get it home and took it back to the prop shop and found the blade they had replace was too long and out of pitch. Mine did not vibrate enough to notice but it sure did some damage. Jim Addington N444BD _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM THANKSDAN. IT'S THE RIGHT ENGINE ONLY. ILL CHECK COMPRESSION AND BLADE ANGLES. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Wold <mailto:danwold(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM Doctor, it hurts when I do this. Umm.. Don't do that? Cheers, DJW On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:25 AM, wrote: > "Excessive" vibration will not be solved by dynamic balancing. Both > engines?? Check engine compression and propeller blade angles. Good luck. > jb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM> > To: commander-list > Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm > Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM > > MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U > RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. > THANKS,LLOYD > > ========== > t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > ========== > tp://forums.matronics.com > ========== > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > >nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Date: Apr 26, 2010
THANKS,BOB. I CHECKED ADEQUATE FLEX ON HOSES & HARNESSES. BY THE WAY ,IT'S RT ENGINE ONLY ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com<mailto:BobsV35B(at)aol.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 8:35 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM Good Morning Lloyd, I may be getting in on this late, but have you recently had work done on both engines? Vibrations such as you describe are often caused by a very conscientious mechanic who tightly secures every wire, hose, cable, and shaft that he can find. That stiffens the engine's connection to the fuselage and occasionally transmits vibrations at resonant RPM ranges. The reason we have flexible engine mounts, hoses, and wires instead of solid mounts and hard lines is to provide enough flexibility to allow the engine to wiggle when it wants to wiggle without wiggling the airframe. Just snipping a few Ty-Wraps may do the job. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/25/2010 11:38:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, yourtcfg(at)aol.com writes: "Excessive" vibration will not be solved by dynamic balancing. Both engines?? Check engine compression and propeller blade angles. Good luck. jb -----Original Message----- From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM> To: commander-list Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. THANKS,LLOYD http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Date: Apr 26, 2010
Some day I will read what I write before I send it. Sorry i ran it together. Jim _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 6:34 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM I got my prop back from the prop shop and the vibration was bad enough to do damage to the spinner and back plate. We were 50 miles off show when we discovered it. I managed to get it home and took it back to the prop shop and found the blade they had replace was too long and out of pitch. Mine did not vibrate enough to notice but it sure did some damage. Jim Addington N444BD _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM THANKSDAN. IT'S THE RIGHT ENGINE ONLY. ILL CHECK COMPRESSION AND BLADE ANGLES. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Wold <mailto:danwold(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM Doctor, it hurts when I do this. Umm.. Don't do that? Cheers, DJW On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:25 AM, wrote: > "Excessive" vibration will not be solved by dynamic balancing. Both > engines?? Check engine compression and propeller blade angles. Good luck. > jb > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM> > To: commander-list > Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm > Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM > > MY 500B WITH IO540'S HAS EXCESIVE VIBRATION AT 1400 RPM. ANY IDEAS, OR CAN U > RECOMMEND SOMEONE WHO CAN DYNAMICALY BALANC PROP IN NEW YORK AT MGJ. > THANKS,LLOYD > > ========== > t" target=_blank>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > ========== > tp://forums.matronics.com > ========== > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > >nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==== =========== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: VIBRATION AT 1400RPM
Date: Apr 26, 2010


January 29, 2010 - April 26, 2010

Commander-Archive.digest.vol-dq