Commander-Archive.digest.vol-du
December 06, 2010 - December 27, 2010
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-du
December 06, 2010 - December 27, 2010
I too Miss Dick. We often exchanged newsletter articles and he was a genu
ine Gentleman. Now, I have been reading with great interest so post regar
ding Ike and if he flew a T bone. Since none of us were there it is safe
to say that I doubt minds will be changed. However, I have in my possess
ion a great little book titled "The Flying White house" by Col.Ralph Alber
tazzie, an Air Force One pilot. The book chronicles the history of A.F.O.
It is a great book, well written and factual. The author has no allegia
nce to any airplane (except maybe the Boeing 707).
There are a few pages devoted to the history of the Aero Commander, and...
..... the T bone! I wish I could type faster, I would love to share all
that is written on the subject, but will need to share only paraphrased
excerpts. So, here we go. "Not generally know is that Eke had several ot
her presidential aircraft- each of them them a speedy twin propeller L-26
Aero Commander" "The light, little planes were already popular with mili
tary brass for short distance flights" When Ike acquired his farm near Ge
ttysburg, it took only a few trip to convince him a faster way of getting
there had to be found" "The secret service was worried about the safety
of small aircraft for presidential use, they would not let the president
fly in any airplane with less than four engines" "But Ike was insistant
and, there had to be a faster way" "I know ther are small aircraft that
can do the trick" Ike told James Rowley "I know you have reservations,
so find a model that suits us both" "After months of test flying, and st
udy, the secret service and the FAA selected the AERO COMMANDER as the mos
t suitable aircraft" "On Mat 23 1955 an order was placed but to ease Ikes
impatience, a demonstrator, N2724B was leased to the Whiter House" "And
so on June 3 1955, a president cf the United States flew for the first ti
me in light aircraft" "With two pilots and Rowley accompaning Ike, they
made the seventy two mike trip in twenty three minutes" "The AERO COMMAN
DER landed on the sod runway at Gettysburg followed closely by another AER
O COMMANDER with three more secret service agents, plus several Beechcraft
L-23, Twin Bonnanzas with a delegation of reporters to record the histori
c airlift" So, you see, the government did in fact believe that Twin Bona
nazas were safe enough for THE PRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After his heart atta
ck in July of 1956, a bed was installed in Ikes AERO COMMANDER so he could
still travel to the farm, a feat impossible in a Bone. There is much mor
e information about the AERO COMMANDER and there presidential use includin
g the fact that even today's 747 are painted in a very simallr paint schem
e. There is mention of him flying a Stearman, but NO mention of him EVER
flying re even being allowed to ride in a Twin Bonanza While he was clea
rly around both types, the Commander was his airplane of choice. sorry
BTW, I think Bones are great airplanes too!!!!
;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 9:52 am
Subject: Re: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Keith,
We lost Dick in 2008.
Miss him too.
And: ---- I like both machines! Flew them a lot back in the fifties and
sixties.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 10:24:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcra
ft(at)aol.com writes:
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
Old Bob,
Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gone
West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group
he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands -- Bee
ch and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed a joint
fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show
the engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet numbers.
We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jousting
with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much better
than the T-Bone.
Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom ever
y now and then.
Keith S. Gordon
aka Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Barry,
While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around
Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate,
I doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operatio
n. Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard
the story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole
passel of T-Bones!
When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero Command
er to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick". Beech eve
n redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done
.
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that there
was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that
he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri
ng WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also fle
w in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so.
I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty
Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as
well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the pres
idency, it would have been Rusty.
The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the Conni
e he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as President.
I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commute
between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of Col
umbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It is
quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it
for a very short time.
We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum
and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma.
I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial
use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old
timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory.
However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident.
I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for at
least the first flying trip to Camp David.
By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made
of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meig
s Field to work every day?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.col
lman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
Hi again Bob,
Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore
have no reference material here that would be of any help.
However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many aspec
ts of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX=9D
(Air-Britain Information Exchange).
People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the vas
t majority of them get answered by other people who have the required know
ledge or expertise.
I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhower
had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal.
One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he
has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and Fly
ing magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by the
President.
Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember seei
ng any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories, li
terature or newsletters.
He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of
the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had ext
ended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, project
ended 19Dec56.
This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998.
As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airport,
just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the han
gars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Bui
lt 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Comfort and
carried USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircraft had be
en used at some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch fo
r the authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at
the time.=9D
To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across this
claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They claimed
that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [si
c Tibbets] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eisenhowe
r flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was Presi
dent (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm
in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own
it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it, that would be great if
that could be confirmed.=9D
So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that one
was not set aside for his permanent use.
The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpose
.
My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used an
d the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Trans
port Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister uni
t, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President
=99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign dignitaries.
However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in Air-Bri
tain would like to know more.
Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, "Bee
chcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.)
Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight that
fact?
Best Regards,
Barry
========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 2010 Flyin
From: "Peter Bichier" <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Date: Dec 06, 2010
Moe we missed you too, specially at the banquet! (I'm sure you recognized your
old "pick-up" Golden friend!
Hope 680RR is flying along straight (when not on the ground) and I'm sure we'll
see you again, hope your time also paid off... (I won't start a slippery slope
here)
Morris, hope you're also reading this since this link is mostly for you. For the
others, on every fly in we always have a "field trip."
In Oklahoma we went to see the "blue Goose" (AC prototype been restored with the
$ we contribute at the banquet).
In Carson City of course, there was Bob Hoover and do I have to say Reno?
In Hillsboro, it was a nice trip through Pinot Noir country to the Evergreen Aviation
Museum to see well another Goose; check it out!
http://picasaweb.google.com/YVABE560/EvergreenAirMuseum10?feat=directlink
Hasta luego,
P.
--------
560 Dreamer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322561#322561
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander photo / video
Date: Dec 07, 2010
Hi JimBob,
Super sleuth!
Looks like I=99ll have to get hold of a copy of that book.
Grateful thanks for your help.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: 07 December 2010 04:27
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
I too Miss Dick. We often exchanged newsletter articles and he was a
genuine Gentleman. Now, I have been reading with great interest so post
regarding Ike and if he flew a T bone. Since none of us were there it
is safe to say that I doubt minds will be changed. However, I have in
my possession a great little book titled "The Flying White house" by
Col.Ralph Albertazzie, an Air Force One pilot. The book chronicles the
history of A.F.O. It is a great book, well written and factual. The
author has no allegiance to any airplane (except maybe the Boeing 707).
There are a few pages devoted to the history of the Aero Commander,
and........ the T bone! I wish I could type faster, I would love to
share all that is written on the subject, but will need to share only
paraphrased excerpts. So, here we go. "Not generally know is that Eke
had several other presidential aircraft- each of them them a speedy twin
propeller L-26 Aero Commander" "The light, little planes were already
popular with military brass for short distance flights" When Ike
acquired his farm near Gettysburg, it took only a few trip to convince
him a faster way of getting there had to be found" "The secret service
was worried about the safety of small aircraft for presidential use,
they would not let the president fly in any airplane with less than four
engines" "But Ike was insistant and, there had to be a faster way" "I
know ther are small aircraft that can do the trick" Ike told James
Rowley "I know you have reservations, so find a model that suits us
both" "After months of test flying, and study, the secret service and
the FAA selected the AERO COMMANDER as the most suitable aircraft" "On
Mat 23 1955 an order was placed but to ease Ikes impatience, a
demonstrator, N2724B was leased to the Whiter House" "And so on June 3
1955, a president cf the United States flew for the first time in light
aircraft" "With two pilots and Rowley accompaning Ike, they made the
seventy two mike trip in twenty three minutes" "The AERO COMMANDER
landed on the sod runway at Gettysburg followed closely by another AERO
COMMANDER with three more secret service agents, plus several Beechcraft
L-23, Twin Bonnanzas with a delegation of reporters to record the
historic airlift" So, you see, the government did in fact believe that
Twin Bonanazas were safe enough for THE PRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After his
heart attack in July of 1956, a bed was installed in Ikes AERO COMMANDER
so he could still travel to the farm, a feat impossible in a Bone.
There is much more information about the AERO COMMANDER and there
presidential use including the fact that even today's 747 are painted in
a very simallr paint scheme. There is mention of him flying a Stearman,
but NO mention of him EVER flying re even being allowed to ride in a
Twin Bonanza While he was clearly around both types, the Commander was
his airplane of choice. sorry BTW, I think Bones are
great airplanes too!!!! ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 9:52 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Keith,
We lost Dick in 2008.
Miss him too.
And: ---- I like both machines! Flew them a lot back in the fifties
and sixties.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 10:24:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,
cloudcraft(at)aol.com writes:
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about
the D50 than anyone else I ever met.
Old Bob,
Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had
gone West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight
Group he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands
-- Beech and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed
a joint fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners
could show the engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet
numbers.
We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be
jousting with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo
much better than the T-Bone.
Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom
every now and then.
Keith S. Gordon
aka Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Barry,
While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly
around Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is
accurate, I doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to
the operation. Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said
before, I heard the story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The
Army had a whole passel of T-Bones!
When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero
Commander to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick".
Beech even redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the
damage was done.
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about
the D50 than anyone else I ever met.
I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that
there was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would
imagine that he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in
the Army during WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on
occasion. He also flew in various liaison aircraft whenever it was
appropriate to do so.
I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike.
Rusty Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the
Columbine as well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he
left the presidency, it would have been Rusty.
The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the
Connie he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as
President.
I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to
commute between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was
President of Columbia University, but have never found any proof of his
ownership. It is quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft
and he only used it for a very short time.
We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum
and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma.
I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial
use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old
timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory.
However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident.
I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for
at least the first flying trip to Camp David.
By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick
made of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to
Chicago's Meigs Field to work every day?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
Hi again Bob,
Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore
have no reference material here that would be of any help.
However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many
aspects of aviation and there is an online Forum called
=9CAB-IX=9D (Air-Britain Information Exchange).
People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the
vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the required
knowledge or expertise.
I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President
Eisenhower had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal.
One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he
has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and
Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by
the President.
Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember
seeing any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech
histories, literature or newsletters.
He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example
of the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had
extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955,
project ended 19Dec56.
This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998.
As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive
Airport, just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied
around the hangars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC
, c/n AF258, Built 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named
Southern Comfort and carried USAF under the port wing. We were told
that this aircraft had been used at some time by President Eisenhower,
and whilst I cannot vouch for the authenticity of this story, we
accepted the comment at face value at the time.=9D
To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across
this claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They
claimed that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul
Tibbet [sic Tibbets] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is
that Eisenhower flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF
and he was President (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he
retired to a farm in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA
files he didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it,
that would be great if that could be confirmed.=9D
So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that
one was not set aside for his permanent use.
The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific
purpose.
My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used
and the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air
Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A
sister unit, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew
the President=99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign
dignitaries.
However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in
Air-Britain would like to know more.
Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward,
"Beechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.)
Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight
that fact?
Best Regards,
Barry
ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
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ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 2010
From: "sr14572(at)yahoo.com" <sr14572(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Commander photo / video
I normally don't chime in, but I met Dick Ward in 2007 (i think, or somewhe
re =0Aaround then) and considered buying one of his two T-bones when he was
=0Adownsizing.=C2- I even have a book that he autographed and gave to me
.....he was an =0Ainteresting guy....what a salesman (good).=C2- During o
ur conversation(s) I told =0Ahim that I had a 500B and loved it, and asked
him if the T-bone would =0Acompare......with a smile on my face.=C2- He l
aughed and said that the glass =0Aceiling would break if I bought his T-bon
e.=C2- I did a lot of soul searching and =0Adecided to not buy any T-bone
.=C2- I was spoiled.=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________________
_=0AFrom: "yourtcfg(at)aol.com" <yourtcfg(at)aol.com>=0ATo: commander-list@matron
ics.com=0ASent: Mon, December 6, 2010 11:26:56 PM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-
List: Commander photo / video=0A=0AI too Miss Dick.=C2- We often exchange
d newsletter articles and he was a genuine =0AGentleman.=C2- Now, I have
been reading with great interest so post regarding Ike =0Aand if he flew a
T bone.=C2- Since none of us were there it is safe to say that I =0Adoubt
minds will be changed.=C2- However, I have in my possession a great litt
le =0Abook titled "The Flying White house" by Col.Ralph Albertazzie, an Air
Force One =0Apilot.=C2- The book chronicles the history of A.F.O.=C2-
It is a great book, well =0Awritten and factual.=C2- The author has no al
legiance to any airplane (except maybe =0Athe Boeing 707).=0AThere are a fe
w pages devoted to the history of the Aero Commander, and........ =0Athe=C2
- T bone!=C2- I wish I could type faster, I would love to share all tha
t is =0Awritten on the subject, but will need to share only paraphrased=C2
-excerpts.=C2- So, =0Ahere we go. "Not generally know is that Eke had s
everal other presidential =0Aaircraft- each of them them a speedy twin prop
eller L-26 Aero Commander"=C2- "The =0Alight, little planes were already
popular with military brass for short distance =0Aflights"=C2- When Ike a
cquired his farm near Gettysburg, it took only a few trip to =0Aconvince=C2
-him a faster way of getting there had to be found"=C2- "The secret ser
vice =0Awas worried=C2-about the safety of small aircraft for presidentia
l use, they would =0Anot let the president fly in any airplane with less th
an four engines"=C2- "But Ike =0Awas insistant and, there had to be a fas
ter way"=C2-=C2- "I know ther are small =0Aaircraft that can do the tri
ck" =C2-Ike told James Rowley=C2- "I know you have =0Areservations, so
find a model that suits us both"=C2- "After months of test flying, =0Aand
study, the secret service and the FAA selected the AERO COMMANDER as the
=0Amost suitable aircraft"=C2- "On Mat 23 1955 an order was placed but to
ease Ikes =0Aimpatience, a demonstrator, N2724B was leased to the Whiter H
ouse"=C2- "And so on =0AJune 3 1955, a president cf the United States fle
w for the first time in=C2-light =0Aaircraft"=C2- "With two pilots and
Rowley accompaning Ike, they made the seventy =0Atwo mike trip in twenty th
ree minutes"=C2-=C2-"The AERO COMMANDER landed on the sod =0Arunway at
Gettysburg followed closely by another AERO COMMANDER with three more =0Ase
cret service agents,=C2-plus several Beechcraft L-23, Twin Bonnanzas=C2
-with a =0Adelegation of reporters to record the historic airlift"=C2-
So, you see, the =0Agovernment did in fact believe that Twin Bonanazas were
safe enough for THE =0APRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=C2- After his heart attack
in=C2-July of 1956, a bed was =0Ainstalled in Ikes AERO COMMANDER=C2-so
he could still travel to the farm, a feat =0Aimpossible in a Bone.=C2- T
here is much more information about the=C2-AERO COMMANDER =0Aand there pr
esidential use including the fact that even today's 747 are painted =0Ain
=C2-a very simallr paint scheme.=C2-=C2-There is mention of him flyin
g a Stearman, but =0ANO mention of him EVER flying re even being allowed to
ride in a Twin Bonanza=C2- =0AWhile he was clearly around both types, th
e Commander was his airplane of =0Achoice.=C2- sorry=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2- =C2-BTW, I think Bones are great airplanes =0Atoo!!!!=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- ;-)=C2-=C2-=C2
- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 9:52 am=0ASubj
ect: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video=0A=0A=0AGood Morning Keith
,=0A=0AWe lost Dick in 2008.=C2- =0A=0AMiss him too.=0A=0AAnd: =C2-----
=C2- I like both machines! Flew them a lot back in the fifties and =0Asix
ties.=0A=0AHappy Skies,=0A=0AOld Bob=0A=0AIn a message dated 12/6/2010 10:2
4:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, =0Acloudcraft(at)aol.com writes:=0AIt is a sh
ame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 =0Athan
anyone else I ever met.Old Bob,=0A>=0A>Sometimes bad news travels slowly.
=C2- I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gone =0A>West.=C2- In the early
days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group he and =0A>I spoke man
y times and shared resources that the two brands -- Beech and Aero =0A>Comm
ander -- had in common.=C2-=C2- At one time we discussed a joint fly-in
event so =0A>T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show the e
ngine, prop,=C2- parts =0A>and service=C2- providers our fleet numbers.
=0A>=0A>We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jo
usting with =0A>him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much
better than the =0A>T-Bone.=0A>=0A>Best to you -- and thank you for droppi
ng in with your wit and wisdom every now =0A>and then.=0A>=0A>Keith S. Gord
on=0A>aka Wing Commander Gordon=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Life is not simple anywhere.
Probably less so elsewhere.=0A>NBAA Access Committee=0A>Las Vegas Airspace
Users' Council, NBAA Rep=0A>Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA R
ep=0A>Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>---
--Original Message-----=0A>From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com=0A>To: commander-list@mat
ronics.com=0A>Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am=0A>Subject: Re: Commander-List
: Commander photo / video=0A>=0A>=0A>Good Morning Barry,=0A>=0A>While I am
confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around Korea =0A>i
s accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate, I doubt v
ery =0A>much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operation. Chan
ces are it =0A>was a routine Army airplane.=C2- As I said before, I heard
the story from Army =0A>pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a wh
ole passel of T-Bones! =0A>=0A>When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision
was made to get the Aero Commander to =0A>eliminate the climb up those ori
ginal "steps on a stick".=C2- Beech even redesigned =0A>the access to the
D50 because of it, =C2-but the damage was done.=0A>=0A>It is a shame tha
t Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 =0A>than anyon
e else I ever met.=0A>=0A>I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and
I am confident that there was =0A>never a Twin Beech specifically assigned
to Ike. I would imagine that he did fly =0A>in one every now and then.=C2
- It was hard to be in the Army during WWII without =0A>getting in a DC-3
or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also flew in various liaison =0A>aircraft
whenever it was appropriate to do so.=0A>=0A>I also doubt that Paul Tibbets
would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty Draper =0A>was his pilot during
WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as well. If =0A>anyone would ha
ve done any flying for Ike after he left the presidency, it would =0A>have
been Rusty.=0A>=0A>The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am famil
iar=C2-were the Connie he =0A>used as General Of The Armies and the Colum
bine he used as President.=0A>=0A>I have tried to locate the serial number
of the Bonanza he used to commute =0A>between his home at Gettysburg and Te
terboro when he was President of Columbia =0A>University, but have never fo
und any proof of his ownership. It is quite =0A>possible that the Bonanza w
as a leased aircraft and he only used it for a very =0A>short time.=0A>=0A>
We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum an
d I =0A>will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma.
=0A>=0A>I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the in
itial use of =0A>a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcr
aft old timers when I =0A>attended schools or sales events at the factory.
=0A>=0A>=0A>However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incide
nt.=0A>=0A>I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-B
one for=C2-at least =0A>the first=C2-flying trip to Camp David.=0A>=0A>
By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made o
f an =0A>Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Mei
gs Field to =0A>work every day?=0A>=0A>Happy Skies,=0A>=0A>Old Bob=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
=0A>barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:=0A>Hi again Bob,=0A>>=C2-=0A>
>Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore h
ave no =0A>>reference material here that would be of any help.=0A>>However,
within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many aspects of =0A
>>aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX=9D (Air
-Britain Information =0A>>Exchange).=0A>>People can ask questions they are
unable to resolve themselves and the vast =0A>>majority of them get answere
d by other people who have the required knowledge or =0A>>expertise.=0A>>
=C2-=0A>>I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President E
isenhower had a =0A>>Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>One
guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he has
=0A>>available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and Flyi
ng =0A>>magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by th
e President.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, do
esn=99t remember seeing any =0A>>reference to Eisenhower using a Twin
Bonanza in Beech histories, literature or =0A>>newsletters.=0A>>He did add
though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of the =0A>>L-
23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had extended
=0A>>floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, project en
ded =0A>>19Dec56.=0A>>This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanz
a" 1998.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited We
ston Executive=C2-Airport, just outside =0A>>Dublin, in June of 2008. On
=C2-being accompanied around the hangars my colleagues =0A>>and I were sh
own a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Built 1952, formerly N9541Z =0A>>and
51-11701A.=C2-She was named Southern Comfort and carried USAF under the
port =0A>>wing.=C2- We were told that this aircraft had been used at some
time by President =0A>>Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch for the authe
nticity of this story, we =0A>>accepted the comment at face value at the ti
me.=9D=0A>>=0A>>To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI f
irst came across this claim online =0A>>and it accompanied a photo for sale
of G-BSZC. They claimed that it belonged "to =0A>>ex-president Eisenhower
and flown by Paul Tibbet [sic Tibbets] of Enola Gay =0A>>WWII." I'm not sur
e if the claim is that Eisenhower flew in it while it was in =0A>>service w
ith SAC in the USAF and he was President (1953-1961) or that he owned =0A>>
it as a civilian (he retired to a farm in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69).
=0A>>According to FAA files he didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book sho
ws he flew =0A>>in it, that would be great if that could be confirmed.
=9D=0A>>=0A>>So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel
sure that one was =0A>>not set aside for his permanent use.=0A>>The Comman
ders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpose.=0A>>My fe
eling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used and the
=0A>>Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Transpo
rt Group, =0A>>1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister u
nit, the 1299th Air =0A>>Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the Pre
sident=99s aides, Secret Service =0A>>personnel and foreign dignitari
es.=0A>>=C2-However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, w
e in Air-Britain =0A>>would like to know more.=0A>>Does anybody have a copy
of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, =0A>>"Beechcraft Twin Bonanza
", from 1998.)=0A>>Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book wou
ld highlight that =0Afact?=0A>>=0A>>Best Regards,=0A>>Barry=0A>=0A> =0A>
========================
=============0A> ric.com">www.aeroelectr
ic.com=0A> w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com=0A> thelp.com">ww
w.homebuilthelp.com=0A> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0A> ====
========0A> ttp://forums.matronics.com=0A> ===
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========================
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p.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com =0A>tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http
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atronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0A> ===========
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aeroelectric.com m/" =0Atarget=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com =_blank>www
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 07, 2010
Subject: Re: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Jim,
I think we can agree that no minds will be changed.
Col. Ralph Albertazzie is strictly a Johnnie come lately. Rusty Draper was
Ike's pilot both during WWII and while he was President of the USA. I would
be a LOT more interested in what he might have to say.
However, all of the data you have presented concerns what happened AFTER
Mamie slipped and skinned her shin. I have seen nothing about Ike making his
inspection tour of Korea prior to inauguration and no mention of his rather
extensive flying background..
Not unusual, though, since most of it was way outside the regulations!
What do you think the chances are of any flying Ike did that was outside of
the Army's rules ever being documented?
As I said before: If you were a General AND an avid aviator, don't you
think you might tend to grab a bit of stick time?
The data also makes the quote: "When Ike acquired his farm near
Gettysburg, it took only a few trips to convince him a faster way of getting there
had to be found"
This does NOT jibe with known history. If the quote was not accurate, how
can we be sure the rest is accurate?
Ike had acquired his farm long before he became president of the USA. In
fact. he had the sod runway installed for use of his Bonanza when he was
president of Columbia University. The Bonanza made the commute to Teterboro
very nicely.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 10:35:02 P.M. Central Standard Time,
yourtcfg(at)aol.com writes:
I too Miss Dick. We often exchanged newsletter articles and he was a
genuine Gentleman. Now, I have been reading with great interest so post
regarding Ike and if he flew a T bone. Since none of us were there it is safe
to
say that I doubt minds will be changed. However, I have in my possession
a great little book titled "The Flying White house" by Col. Ralph
Albertazzie, an Air Force One pilot. The book chronicles the history of A.F.O.
It
is a great book, well written and factual. The author has no allegiance to
any airplane (except maybe the Boeing 707).
There are a few pages devoted to the history of the Aero Commander,
and........ the T bone! I wish I could type faster, I would love to share all
that is written on the subject, but will need to share only paraphrased
excerpts. So, here we go. "Not generally know is that Eke had several other
presidential aircraft- each of them them a speedy twin propeller L-26 Aero
Commander" "The light, little planes were already popular with military
brass for short distance flights" When Ike acquired his farm near Gettysburg,
it took only a few trip to convince him a faster way of getting there had
to be found" "The secret service was worried about the safety of small
aircraft for presidential use, they would not let the president fly in any
airplane with less than four engines" "But Ike was insistant and, there had to
be a faster way" "I know ther are small aircraft that can do the trick"
Ike told James Rowley "I know you have reservations, so find a model that
suits us both" "After months of test flying, and study, the secret
service and the FAA selected the AERO COMMANDER as the most suitable aircraft"
"On Mat 23 1955 an order was placed but to ease Ikes impatience, a
demonstrator, N2724B was leased to the Whiter House" "And so on June 3 1955,
a
president cf the United States flew for the first time in light aircraft"
"With two pilots and Rowley accompaning Ike, they made the seventy two mike
trip in twenty three minutes" "The AERO COMMANDER landed on the sod runway
at Gettysburg followed closely by another AERO COMMANDER with three more
secret service agents, plus several Beechcraft L-23, Twin Bonnanzas with a
delegation of reporters to record the historic airlift" So, you see, the
government did in fact believe that Twin Bonanazas were safe enough for THE
PRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After his heart attack in July of 1956, a bed was
installed in Ikes AERO COMMANDER so he could still travel to the farm, a feat
impossible in a Bone. There is much more information about the AERO
COMMANDER and there presidential use including the fact that even today's 747
are
painted in a very simallr paint scheme. There is mention of him flying a
Stearman, but NO mention of him EVER flying re even being allowed to ride in
a Twin Bonanza While he was clearly around both types, the Commander was
his airplane of choice. sorry BTW, I think Bones are
great airplanes too!!!! ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 9:52 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Keith,
We lost Dick in 2008.
Miss him too.
And: ---- I like both machines! Flew them a lot back in the fifties and
sixties.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 10:24:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,
_cloudcraft(at)aol.com_ (mailto:cloudcraft(at)aol.com) writes:
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
Old Bob,
Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gone
West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group
he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands -- Beech
and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed a joint
fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show the
engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet numbers.
We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jousting
with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much better
than the T-Bone.
Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom
every now and then.
Keith S. Gordon
aka Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: _BobsV35B(at)aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B(at)aol.com)
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Barry,
While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around
Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate, I
doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operation.
Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard the
story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole
passel of T-Bones!
When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero
Commander to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick". Beech
even
redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done.
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that there
was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that
he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army during
WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also flew
in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so.
I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty
Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as
well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the
presidency, it would have been Rusty.
The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the
Connie he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as President.
I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commute
between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of
Columbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It is
quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it for
a very short time.
We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum
and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma.
I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial
use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old
timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory.
However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident.
I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for at
least the first flying trip to Camp David.
By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made
of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meigs
Field to work every day?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2010
From: swperk(at)earthlink.net
Subject: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also appreciate all
of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a Twin Commander I saw
yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a while, but I
saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite where the airline terminal
is. My information is a bit vague because I could get no closer than a
half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what appeared to be
turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to fuselage distance. The plane
is beige with light blue striping, and is missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a window seat
on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as we passed the Commander.
I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few photos to you when I get
home next week. They're a little blurry, since I took them through several layers
of plexiglas while moving at 120 knots or so, but maybe you will find them
useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been to about
six airports here in my travels and, other than a few corporate-style jets,
I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for now!
Regards,
Stan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: N6253X For Sale
Date: Dec 08, 2010
Randy,
When you have a few minutes give me a call. Due to insurance
requirements I need to get a non-pressurized Commander. Cell (310)
350-4594.
Regards
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: Randy Dettmer, AIA
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 8:40 AM
Subject: Commander-List: N6253X For Sale
Fellow Commander Colleagues,
After 11 years of faithful service, I have decided to put N6253X up for
sale. Here are some quick specs:
1961 680F
Approx 4,000 hrs total time / 150 hours SMOH
Decent paint / good interior
Collins nav/coms, HSI, coupled GPS, C-3 Autopilot, etc.
Flown regularly - generally in very good shape
Asking $150,000.00
Pictures and more information to follow.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680f / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 08, 2010
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on 01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals that it's
been moved and has been moved just outside the airport perimeter in order to
take part in a mock accident to test the response of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also appreciate all
of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a Twin Commander I saw
yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a while, but I
saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite where the airline terminal
is. My information is a bit vague because I could get no closer than a
half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what appeared to be
turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to fuselage distance. The plane
is beige with light blue striping, and is missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a window seat
on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as we passed the Commander.
I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few photos to you when I get
home next week. They're a little blurry, since I took them through several layers
of plexiglas while moving at 120 knots or so, but maybe you will find them
useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been to about
six airports here in my travels and, other than a few corporate-style jets,
I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for now!
Regards,
Stan
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2010
From: swperk(at)earthlink.net
Subject: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Barry,
The photos on both sites are consistent with what I saw in person. The photo on
myaviation.net shows that the right engine and prop are still in place. I didnt
get a good enough look at it to see whether it was still there the other day.
The plane is definitely still on the airport grounds, parked with its tail
towards the runway.
Anyway, Ill be forwarding a few photos to you next week when I'm back home.
Regards,
Stan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>Sent: Dec 8, 2010 1:39 PM
>To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
>
>
>Hi Stan,
>
>Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of the border!
>So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to keyboard.
>
>I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
>I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
>No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
>
>I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on 01May08.
>However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals that it's
been moved and has been moved just outside the airport perimeter in order
to take part in a mock accident to test the response of emergency procedures.
>
>Very Best Regards,
>Barry
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of swperk(at)earthlink.net
>Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
>To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
>
>
>Hi Barry,
>
>You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also appreciate all
of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a Twin Commander I saw
yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos Aires.
>
>Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a while, but
I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite where the airline terminal
is. My information is a bit vague because I could get no closer than a
half a mile or so to it.
>
>Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what appeared to
be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to fuselage distance. The plane
is beige with light blue striping, and is missing (at least) the rudder.
>
>I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a window seat
on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as we passed the Commander.
I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few photos to you when I get
home next week. They're a little blurry, since I took them through several layers
of plexiglas while moving at 120 knots or so, but maybe you will find them
useful.
>
>BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been to about
six airports here in my travels and, other than a few corporate-style jets,
I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
>
>All for now!
>
>Regards,
>Stan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 08, 2010
Hi Stan,
OK - grateful thanks!
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 22:53
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Barry,
The photos on both sites are consistent with what I saw in person. The photo on
myaviation.net shows that the right engine and prop are still in place. I didnt
get a good enough look at it to see whether it was still there the other day.
The plane is definitely still on the airport grounds, parked with its tail
towards the runway.
Anyway, Ill be forwarding a few photos to you next week when I'm back home.
Regards,
Stan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>Sent: Dec 8, 2010 1:39 PM
>To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
>
>--> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
>
>Hi Stan,
>
>Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of the border!
>So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to keyboard.
>
>I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
>I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
>No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
>
>I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on 01May08.
>However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals that it's
been moved and has been moved just outside the airport perimeter in order
to take part in a mock accident to test the response of emergency procedures.
>
>Very Best Regards,
>Barry
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>swperk(at)earthlink.net
>Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
>To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
>
>
>Hi Barry,
>
>You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also appreciate all
of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a Twin Commander I saw
yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos Aires.
>
>Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a while, but
I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite where the airline terminal
is. My information is a bit vague because I could get no closer than a
half a mile or so to it.
>
>Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what appeared to
be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to fuselage distance. The plane
is beige with light blue striping, and is missing (at least) the rudder.
>
>I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a window seat
on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as we passed the Commander.
I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few photos to you when I get
home next week. They're a little blurry, since I took them through several layers
of plexiglas while moving at 120 knots or so, but maybe you will find them
useful.
>
>BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been to about
six airports here in my travels and, other than a few corporate-style jets,
I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
>
>All for now!
>
>Regards,
>Stan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
From: "Peter Bichier" <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Date: Dec 08, 2010
I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary report.
What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that a case
where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much "hard
hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must even
in a Commander?
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1
NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR
Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any
errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander 500B, N500FV,
impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon. The private
pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained substantial damage.
The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight rules (VFR) flight,
which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding California, at an as of
yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello, Idaho. The accident took place
in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and rain were reported. No flight
plan had been filed, but the pilot was receiving radar flight following from
Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC).
According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead, but could
not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was falling.
The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first, but then the
sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that they had heard from
an "airplane doing aerobatics." Soon thereafter, the airplane was seen descending
steeply out of the clouds with about one-third of the left wing missing.
The airplane impacted the terrain in a near vertical attitude.
The portion of the left wing that had separated was located about one-half mile
from the rest of the wreckage. The airplane has been recovered, and will undergo
further inspection and analysis.
--------
560 Dreamer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322703#322703
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 08, 2010
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B
N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South
of the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to
keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but
in the meantime you can see a shot of it on
www.myaviation.net<http://www.myaviation.net/>, taken on 01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10,
reveals that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport
perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response
of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also
appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a
Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos
Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a
while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite
where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I
could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what
appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to
fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is
missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a
window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as
we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few
photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since
I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120
knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've
been to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few
corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for now!
Regards,
Stan
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
m/Navigator?Commander-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 09, 2010
Hi Lloyd,
Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a joint
owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia.
I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on its
history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long
story=9D!
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B
N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of
the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to
keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in
the meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on
01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals
that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport
perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response
of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also
appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a
Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos
Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a
while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite
where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I
could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what
appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to
fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is
missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a
window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as
we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few
photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since
I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120
knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been
to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few
corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual
link Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The Builder's
Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ;
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution> -Matt
Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> via the Web
title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 09, 2010
If any member would like an aerocommander.com email address, just let me
know.
Only "nico" has been taken and addresses like webmaster, administrator etc.
cannot be allowed.
Thanks
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 4:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a joint owner
of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia.
I'm going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on its history and
will certainly look forward to learning "a long story"!
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of the
border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to
keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in the
meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on 01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals that
it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport perimeter in
order to take part in a mock accident to test the response of emergency
procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also appreciate
all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a Twin Commander I
saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a while,
but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite where the
airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I could get no
closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what appeared
to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to fuselage distance.
The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is missing (at least) the
rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a window
seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as we passed
the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few photos to you
when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since I took them
through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120 knots or so, but
maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been to
about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few corporate-style
jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link
Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The Builder's Bookstore
http://www.matronics.com/c Thank
you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp;
Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> via the Web
title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: aerocommander.com email addresses
Date: Dec 09, 2010
If any member would like an aerocommander.com email address, just let me
know.
Only "nico" has been taken and addresses like webmaster, administrator etc.
cannot be allowed.
Thanks
Nico
PS.
I should have changed the subject line. Sorry about that.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Subject: 1975 500S in Tehran, Iran for sale
Date: Dec 09, 2010
Barry,
http://aviationclassifieds.com/maincatad-2-Multi%2BEngine+Aircraft
There are two new photos of an airplane that may not have been heard from in a
long time?
Who would the "Famous Owner" Be???
Tylor Hall
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 09, 2010
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: aerocommander.com email addresses
Outstanding! What a great URL. Can I ask for N747H? Yes, I know I've had
other Commanders....
________________________________
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 3:17:19 PM
Subject: Commander-List: aerocommander.com email addresses
If any member would like an aerocommander.com email address, just let me know.
Only "nico" has been taken and addresses like webmaster, administrator etc.
cannot be allowed.
Thanks
Nico
PS. I should have changed the subject line. Sorry about that.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 09, 2010
Long interesting story about 6851S (680) Will send next week. Thanks,
Barry.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a joint
owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia.
I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on its
history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long
story=9D!
Best Regards,
Barry
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of lloyd silverman
Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B
N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South
of the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to
keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have,
but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on
www.myaviation.net<http://www.myaviation.net/>, taken on 01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10,
reveals that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport
perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response
of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also
appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a
Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos
Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a
while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite
where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I
could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what
appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to
fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is
missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a
window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as
we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few
photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since
I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120
knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've
been to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few
corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the
Annual link Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The
Builder's Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your
generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features
Chat, <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matnbsp; via
the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.
matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Li
sthttp://forums.matronics.com
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
m/Navigator?Commander-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 09, 2010
barry, my direct email address is
LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM Thanks for your great
work.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a joint
owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia.
I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on its
history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long
story=9D!
Best Regards,
Barry
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of lloyd silverman
Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B
N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South
of the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to
keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have,
but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on
www.myaviation.net<http://www.myaviation.net/>, taken on 01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10,
reveals that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport
perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response
of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also
appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a
Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos
Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a
while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite
where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I
could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what
appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to
fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is
missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a
window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as
we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few
photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since
I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120
knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've
been to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few
corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the
Annual link Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The
Builder's Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your
generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features
Chat, <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matnbsp; via
the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.
matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Li
sthttp://forums.matronics.com
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
m/Navigator?Commander-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: aerocommander.com email addresses
Date: Dec 09, 2010
Hi Craig. Just to be sure it's N747H(at)aerocommander.com that you want?
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
kennedy
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: aerocommander.com email addresses
Outstanding! What a great URL. Can I ask for N747H? Yes, I know I've had
other Commanders....
_____
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 3:17:19 PM
Subject: Commander-List: aerocommander.com email addresses
If any member would like an aerocommander.com email address, just let me
know.
Only "nico" has been taken and addresses like webmaster, administrator etc.
cannot be allowed.
Thanks
Nico
PS.
I should have changed the subject line. Sorry about that.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Date: Dec 10, 2010
Hi Peter,
I'm not an accident investigator, so cannot comment in a definitive manner,
of course!
On the face of it, this seems to be a classic case of the aircraft exceeding
the design stress limits.
This could be because of excessive use of the controls, but other factors
could be brought into play.
The link you provided is "preliminary information, subject to change, and
may contain errors".
Therefore, it's best to wait for the definitive Report to be published by
the NTSB.
In the past, a 'big thing' has been made of such accidents in the press and
led to the Commanders getting a bad reputation for in-flight breakups.
However, virtually all the accident reports that I've seen end up with the
expression "exceeded the design stress limits of the aircraft" or similar.
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Bichier
Sent: 08 December 2010 23:45
Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
-->
I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary
report. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that
a case where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much
"hard hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must
even in a Commander?
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1
NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR
Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander
500B, N500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon.
The private pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained
substantial damage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight
rules (VFR) flight, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding
California, at an as of yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello,
Idaho. The accident took place in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and
rain were reported. No flight plan had been filed, but the pilot was
receiving radar flight following from Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC).
According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead,
but could not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was
falling. The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first,
but then the sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that
they had heard from an "airplane doing aerobatics." Soon thereafter, the
airplane was seen descending steeply out of the clouds with about one-third
of the left wing missing. The airplane impacted the terrain in a near
vertical attitude.
The portion of the left wing that had separated was located about one-half
mile from the rest of the wreckage. The airplane has been recovered, and
will undergo further inspection and analysis.
--------
560 Dreamer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: aerocommander.com email addresses
Date: Dec 10, 2010
Sounds good. What is the send/receive setup info?
=46rom my iPhone 4!
On Dec 9, 2010, at 9:15 PM, "cybersuperstore" wro
te:
> Hi Craig. Just to be sure it's N747H(at)aerocommander.com that you want?
>
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li
st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:06 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: aerocommander.com email addresses
>
> Outstanding! What a great URL. Can I ask for N747H? Yes, I know I've ha
d other Commanders....
>
> From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 3:17:19 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: aerocommander.com email addresses
>
> If any member would like an aerocommander.com email address, just let me k
now.
> Only "nico" has been taken and addresses like webmaster, administrator etc
. cannot be allowed.
> Thanks
> Nico
>
>
>
> PS.
> I should have changed the subject line. Sorry about that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: 1975 500S in Tehran, Iran for sale
Date: Dec 10, 2010
Hi Tylor,
Thanks for the "heads-up".
This Shrike has evidently been advertised for sale since at least November
2009.
Ownership details are not easily obtained for Iran!
All I know is that s/n 3236 was delivered in September 1975 to the Air Taxi
Company, in Tehran.
They were the factory distributor for Iran and other surrounding Countries,
but also operated quite a number of Commander over the years.
I then know that, by March 1977 it was with an "M. Alam" in Tehran.
Whether or he's "famous" I have no idea.
However, I'll make enquiries of a fairly new contact I've got in Iran and
see if he can add any further info.
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: 10 December 2010 00:33
Subject: Commander-List: 1975 500S in Tehran, Iran for sale
Barry,
http://aviationclassifieds.com/maincatad-2-Multi%2BEngine+Aircraft
There are two new photos of an airplane that may not have been heard from in
a long time?
Who would the "Famous Owner" Be???
Tylor Hall
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 10, 2010
Hi Lloyd,
I sent an email to you yesterday with some attached files.
I presume it got to you OK?
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: 10 December 2010 03:21
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
barry, my direct email address is LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM Thanks for
your great work.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a joint
owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia.
I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on its
history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long
story=9D!
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B
N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of
the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to
keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in
the meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on
01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals
that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport
perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response
of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also
appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a
Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos
Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a
while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite
where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I
could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what
appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to
fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is
missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a
window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as
we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few
photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since
I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120
knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been
to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few
corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual
link Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The Builder's
Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ;
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution> -Matt
Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp;
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List> via the Web
title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
title=http://www.buildersbooks.com/
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
<http://www.matronics.com/ctitle=http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Comm
ander-List>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 10, 2010
Barry, I rec'd them all .Great pix. I have no idea when it go the nose
job. Will send tale of how it got into the Colombian navy while I'm
still listed as one of the owners by UNCLE SAM (F.A.A.). Many thanks for
your great work. I never thought id see pix of n6851S again. Lloyd
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:45 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
I sent an email to you yesterday with some attached files.
I presume it got to you OK?
Best Regards,
Barry
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of lloyd silverman
Sent: 10 December 2010 03:21
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
barry, my direct email address is
LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM Thanks for your great
work.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a
joint owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia.
I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on
its history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long
story=9D!
Best Regards,
Barry
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of lloyd silverman
Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B
N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are
South of the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger
to keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have,
but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on
www.myaviation.net<http://www.myaviation.net/>, taken on 01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10,
reveals that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport
perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response
of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also
appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a
Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos
Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a
while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite
where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I
could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what
appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to
fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is
missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had
a window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as
we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few
photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since
I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120
knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've
been to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few
corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the
Annual link Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The
Builder's Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your
generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features
Chat, <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matnbsp; via
the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>www.buildersbooks.com
ntribution>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
atronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>http://forums.matronics.com
forums.matronics.com/>
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">http://www.matronics.com/ctitle=htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List<http://www.matronics.com/c
title=http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?C
ommander-Listhref="h
ttp://forums.matronics.com<http://forums.matronics.com/>">http://forums.m
atronics.com<http://forums.matronics.com/>
www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.
matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Li
sthttp://forums.matronics.com
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
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m/Navigator?Commander-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 11, 2010
Hi Lloyd,
Well, it=99s not definite that =98your=99 680 is the
one that ended up with the Colombian Navy, as per the photo.
It=99s just that of those Commanders that I know of in Colombia,
but don=99t know the aircraft=99s serial number, the shot of
the Navy one is the only 680 that I know of.
There could well be others that I=99m not aware of.
For instance, some military serials have been reported, but the Model
hasn=99t been.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: 11 December 2010 04:07
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Barry, I rec'd them all .Great pix. I have no idea when it go the nose
job. Will send tale of how it got into the Colombian navy while I'm
still listed as one of the owners by UNCLE SAM (F.A.A.). Many thanks for
your great work. I never thought id see pix of n6851S again. Lloyd
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:45 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
I sent an email to you yesterday with some attached files.
I presume it got to you OK?
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: 10 December 2010 03:21
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
barry, my direct email address is LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM Thanks for
your great work.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a joint
owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia.
I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on its
history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long
story=9D!
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B
N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of
the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to
keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in
the meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on
01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals
that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport
perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response
of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also
appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a
Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos
Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a
while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite
where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I
could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what
appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to
fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is
missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a
window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as
we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few
photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since
I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120
knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been
to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few
corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Date: Dec 11, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI PETER...The airplane was being flown, in instrument conditions, by a pa
ir (father & son) of non instrument rated pilots, without a flight plan.
They had been in instrument condition for at least an hour. There was
ice a strong possibility of ice and thunder storms in the vicinity. Ther
e was also evidence of a possible lighting strike. In any case, it appear
s the the pilot simply lost control and exceeded any reasonable design lim
its. Sad. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Bichier <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Sent: Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:44 pm
Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
do.Edu>
I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB prelimina
ry
eport. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is tha
t a
ase where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much
"hard
and" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must even
in a
ommander?
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1
NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397
4 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
ccident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR
ircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV
njuries: 2 Fatal.
his is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any
rrors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
ompleted.
On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander 50
0B,
500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon. The pri
vate
ilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained substantial
amage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight rules (VFR
)
light, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding California, at an
as
f yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello, Idaho. The accident to
ok
lace in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and rain were reported. No
light plan had been filed, but the pilot was receiving radar flight follow
ing
rom Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC).
According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead,
but
ould not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was falli
ng.
he witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first, but then
the
ounds coming from the engines became similar to those that they had heard
from
n "airplane doing aerobatics." Soon thereafter, the airplane was seen
escending steeply out of the clouds with about one-third of the left wing
issing. The airplane impacted the terrain in a near vertical attitude.
The portion of the left wing that had separated was located about one-half
mile
rom the rest of the wreckage. The airplane has been recovered, and will un
dergo
urther inspection and analysis.
--------
60 Dreamer
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322703#322703
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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 11, 2010
From: Frits Abbing <fritsabbing(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Hi Barry,
Excellent comment on this pre report.
However what are the design limits on the AC's. How many G's + or - with speeds?
regards,
Frits
________________________________
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:51:02 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Peter,
I'm not an accident investigator, so cannot comment in a definitive manner,
of course!
On the face of it, this seems to be a classic case of the aircraft exceeding
the design stress limits.
This could be because of excessive use of the controls, but other factors
could be brought into play.
The link you provided is "preliminary information, subject to change, and
may contain errors".
Therefore, it's best to wait for the definitive Report to be published by
the NTSB.
In the past, a 'big thing' has been made of such accidents in the press and
led to the Commanders getting a bad reputation for in-flight breakups.
However, virtually all the accident reports that I've seen end up with the
expression "exceeded the design stress limits of the aircraft" or similar.
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Bichier
Sent: 08 December 2010 23:45
Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
-->
I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary
report. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that
a case where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much
"hard hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must
even in a Commander?
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1
NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR
Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander
500B, N500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon.
The private pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained
substantial damage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight
rules (VFR) flight, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding
California, at an as of yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello,
Idaho. The accident took place in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and
rain were reported. No flight plan had been filed, but the pilot was
receiving radar flight following from Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC).
According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead,
but could not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was
falling. The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first,
but then the sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that
they had heard from an "airplane doing aerobatics." Soon thereafter, the
airplane was seen descending steeply out of the clouds with about one-third
of the left wing missing. The airplane impacted the terrain in a near
vertical attitude.
The portion of the left wing that had separated was located about one-half
mile from the rest of the wreckage. The airplane has been recovered, and
will undergo further inspection and analysis.
--------
560 Dreamer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Date: Dec 11, 2010
Hi Fritz,
N500FV was a Model 500A, but was converted to a 500B in December 1964.
Both the 500A and 500B have a Flight Load Factor of 3.80 G's positive, but
I've not found a Negative G figure published anywhere.
For the 500A, those converted to a Colemill "Super 300", the figure is
slightly reduced, to 3.60 G.
For the other "Speedline" nacelle Models, the Flight Load Factor figures
are:
500U & 500S: 4.40 G positive, 1.76 G negative
560F: 3.47 G positive, 1.76 G negative
680F & 680F(P): 3.43 G positive, no negative figure known
680FL: 3.40 G positive, 1.36 G negative
680FLP: 3.40 G positive, no negative figure known
The 685 is slightly different, with figures of 3.36 & 1.35 with flaps up and
2.00 and 0.00 with flaps down.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frits Abbing
Sent: 11 December 2010 15:31
Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Hi Barry,
Excellent comment on this pre report.
However what are the design limits on the AC's. How many G's + or - with
speeds?
regards,
Frits
_____
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:51:02 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Peter,
I'm not an accident investigator, so cannot comment in a definitive manner,
of course!
On the face of it, this seems to be a classic case of the aircraft exceeding
the design stress limits.
This could be because of excessive use of the controls, but other factors
could be brought into play.
The link you provided is "preliminary information, subject to change, and
may contain errors".
Therefore, it's best to wait for the definitive Report to be published by
the NTSB.
In the past, a 'big thing' has been made of such accidents in the press and
led to the Commanders getting a bad reputation for in-flight breakups.
However, virtually all the accident reports that I've seen end up with the
expression "exceeded the design stress limits of the aircraft" or similar.
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Bichier
Sent: 08 December 2010 23:45
Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
-->
I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary
report. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that
a case where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much
"hard hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must
even in a Commander?
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223
<http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1> &key=1
NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR
Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander
500B, N500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon.
The private pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained
substantial damage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight
rules (VFR) flight, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding
California, at an as of yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello,
Idaho. The accident took place in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and
rain were reported. No flight plan had been filed, but the pilot was
receiving radar flight following from Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC).
According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead,
but could not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was
falling. The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first,
but then the sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that
they had heard from an
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Commander Spotting KGRR
Date: Dec 11, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Sir Barry,
Since your recent post about the lack of Commander spotting going on, I've
made it my early New Year's resolution to improve that area of my life.
This pair of John Towner's fleet were spotted in Grand Rapids, Michicgan
(KGRR) yesterday while I was on a short stand-by.
I did not have my camera with me and took these with my Garmin 550t GPS I
use for geocaching -- so the close-ups of the data plates are not of the
quality I would have wanted.
Featured on these two 500Bs are TKS anti-ice systems for wing and tail and
my favorite scheme for fuel vent anti-icing.
N261ER
Keith S. Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
(next best thing to fly in not an Aero Commander)
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander Spotting KGRR
Date: Dec 11, 2010
Hi Keith,
I'm really grateful to you for the shots of two of John's Commanders,
especially the s/n plates as I'm trying to build up a collection of these in
order to get the Manufacturer's Aircraft Association's 6-digit s/n plate
numbers.
Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS?
What on earth will be next I ask!?!
Really great to hear from you again.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S.
Gordon
Sent: 11 December 2010 17:58
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR
Sir Barry,
Since your recent post about the lack of Commander spotting going on, I've
made it my early New Year's resolution to improve that area of my life.
This pair of John Towner's fleet were spotted in Grand Rapids, Michicgan
(KGRR) yesterday while I was on a short stand-by.
I did not have my camera with me and took these with my Garmin 550t GPS I
use for geocaching -- so the close-ups of the data plates are not of the
quality I would have wanted.
Featured on these two 500Bs are TKS anti-ice systems for wing and tail and
my favorite scheme for fuel vent anti-icing.
N477CC.JPG
N477CC fueselage.JPG
N477CC data plate.JPG
N477CC bragging rights.JPG
N261ER
N261ER fuselage.JPG
N261ER data plate.JPG
TKS wing Fuel Vent Anti Ice.JPG
Keith S. Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
(next best thing to fly in not an Aero Commander)
N770FG KGRR.JPG
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
Date: Dec 11, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS?
What on earth will be next I ask!?!
I know. It's getting ridiculous. Cameras are built into everything now.
Maybe that's good, but I have my concerns!
Knowing you as I do, I made the data plates a priority. Too bad the light
ing was so flat and dim in the gray overcast yesterday. My digital camera
(that has a built in camera) is on the charger and will go into my flight
bag for the next trip.
Best,
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 12:13 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR
Hi Keith,
I=99m really grateful to you for the shots of two of John=99s
Commanders, especially the s/n plates as I=99m trying to build up
a collection of these in order to get the Manufacturer=99s Aircraft
Association=99s 6-digit s/n plate numbers.
Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS?
What on earth will be next I ask!?!
Really great to hear from you again.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander Spotting KGRR
Date: Dec 11, 2010
Hi Keith,
The quality of the s/n plates shots were OK!
So long as I can read the aircraft s/n and the 6-digit number at the
foot of the plate =93 that=99s all I need.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S.
Gordon
Sent: 11 December 2010 20:24
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR
Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS?
What on earth will be next I ask!?!
I know. It's getting ridiculous. Cameras are built into everything now.
Maybe that's good, but I have my concerns!
Knowing you as I do, I made the data plates a priority. Too bad the
lighting was so flat and dim in the gray overcast yesterday. My digital
camera (that has a built in camera) is on the charger and will go into
my flight bag for the next trip.
Best,
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 12:13 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR
Hi Keith,
I=99m really grateful to you for the shots of two of
John=99s Commanders, especially the s/n plates as I=99m
trying to build up a collection of these in order to get the
Manufacturer=99s Aircraft Association=99s 6-digit s/n plate
numbers.
Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS?
What on earth will be next I ask!?!
Really great to hear from you again.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Date: Dec 11, 2010
Hello All,
Out of interest, does anybody have the Flight Load Factor figures for
comparable aircraft, or competitors, of these Commander Models?
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: 11 December 2010 15:57
Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Hi Fritz,
N500FV was a Model 500A, but was converted to a 500B in December 1964.
Both the 500A and 500B have a Flight Load Factor of 3.80 G's positive, but
I've not found a Negative G figure published anywhere.
For the 500A, those converted to a Colemill "Super 300", the figure is
slightly reduced, to 3.60 G.
For the other "Speedline" nacelle Models, the Flight Load Factor figures
are:
500U & 500S: 4.40 G positive, 1.76 G negative
560F: 3.47 G positive, 1.76 G negative
680F & 680F(P): 3.43 G positive, no negative figure known
680FL: 3.40 G positive, 1.36 G negative
680FLP: 3.40 G positive, no negative figure known
The 685 is slightly different, with figures of 3.36 & 1.35 with flaps up and
2.00 and 0.00 with flaps down.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frits Abbing
Sent: 11 December 2010 15:31
Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Hi Barry,
Excellent comment on this pre report.
However what are the design limits on the AC's. How many G's + or - with
speeds?
regards,
Frits
_____
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:51:02 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Peter,
I'm not an accident investigator, so cannot comment in a definitive manner,
of course!
On the face of it, this seems to be a classic case of the aircraft exceeding
the design stress limits.
This could be because of excessive use of the controls, but other factors
could be brought into play.
The link you provided is "preliminary information, subject to change, and
may contain errors".
Therefore, it's best to wait for the definitive Report to be published by
the NTSB.
In the past, a 'big thing' has been made of such accidents in the press and
led to the Commanders getting a bad reputation for in-flight breakups.
However, virtually all the accident reports that I've seen end up with the
expression "exceeded the design stress limits of the aircraft" or similar.
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Bichier
Sent: 08 December 2010 23:45
Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
-->
I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary
report. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that
a case where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much
"hard hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must
even in a Commander?
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223
<http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1> &key=1
NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR
Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander
500B, N500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon.
The private pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained
substantial damage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight
rules (VFR) flight, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding
California, at an as of yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello,
Idaho. The accident took place in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and
rain were reported. No flight plan had been filed, but the pilot was
receiving radar flight following from Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC).
According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead,
but could not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was
falling. The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first,
but then the sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that
they had heard from an
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Date: Dec 11, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Sir Barry,
Try the Type Certificate Data Sheets:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/Framese
t?OpenPageAZSi
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Date: Dec 11, 2010
Hi Keith,
I looked at the FAA TCDS earlier on, but the Flight Load Factor figures
aren't shown.
If I remember correctly, the figures I have probably came from the Flight
Manual for each Model.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S.
Gordon
Sent: 11 December 2010 23:05
Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
Sir Barry,
Try the Type Certificate Data Sheets:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/Frameset?
OpenPageAZSi
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors <<
Date: Dec 11, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Sir Barry,
Well, that link I sent for Type Certificate Data Sheets bombed.
This should work: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgM
akeModel.nsf/
If not, just go to FAA.GOV and search for "type certificate data" and you'
ll get a page with results and a link to their library.
This begs the question: "What is a comparable aircraft?" You'll probably
find that Barons and Cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft will all share th
e same design data: 3.8g positive -- and some may give a negative G value
, some not.
However, they're all driven by Part 23.337:
Sec. 23.337
Limit maneuvering load factors.
(a) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n may not be less than--
(1) 2.1+ for normal category airplanes, except that n need not be mo
re than 3.8 nor may it be less than 2.5;
(2) 4.4 for utility category airplanes; or
(3) 6.0 for acrobatic category airplanes.
(b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than--
(1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal and utility ca
tegories; or
(2) 0.5 times the positive load factor for the acrobatic category.
(c) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this section
may be used if the airplane has design features that make it impossible
to exceed these values in flight.
A manufacturer may decide to exceed the load factor strengths but I don't
know where to find that, other than their advertising because to certify
they must comply with Part 23 and that's all the FAA is interested in.
(An example is the Falcon 20 I fly. It's certified in the US as a Normal
category turbine, Part 25 (large) airplane. However, it's an 8 G airfram
e and a 24 psi pressure vessel. All it needs to state as limitations for
the TDC in the US is 2.5 Gs and 8.7 psi.)
Wing Commander Gordon
________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 11, 2010
Subject: Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors <<
Good Evening Wing Commander Gordon,
I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits,
just loading and speed restrictions.
Incidentally, I don't think the Cessna 300 and 400 series or the Barons are
in the same class as the Aero Commander. I think the best comparison
aircraft would be the Beechcraft Twin Bonanza Model 50. My personal favorite of
that fleet is the D50B.
Wonder how those two (AC and T-Bone) would compare if over stressed?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/11/2010 5:45:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,
cloudcraft(at)aol.com writes:
Sir Barry,
Well, that link I sent for Type Certificate Data Sheets bombed.
This should work:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/
If not, just go to FAA.GOV and search for "type certificate data" and
you'll get a page with results and a link to their library.
This begs the question: "What is a comparable aircraft?" You'll
probably find that Barons and Cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft will all share
the same design data: 3.8g positive -- and some may give a negative G value,
some not.
However, they're all driven by Part 23.337:
Sec. 23.337
Limit maneuvering load factors.
(a) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n may not be less than--
(1) 2.1+ for normal category airplanes, except that n need not be more
than 3.8 nor may it be less than 2.5;
(2) 4.4 for utility category airplanes; or
(3) 6.0 for acrobatic category airplanes.
(b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than--
(1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal and utility
categories; or
(2) 0.5 times the positive load factor for the acrobatic category.
(c) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this section
may be used if the airplane has design features that make it impossible to
exceed these values in flight.
A manufacturer may decide to exceed the load factor strengths but I don't
know where to find that, other than their advertising because to certify
they must comply with Part 23 and that's all the FAA is interested in.
(An example is the Falcon 20 I fly. It's certified in the US as a Normal
category turbine, Part 25 (large) airplane. However, it's an 8 G airframe
and a 24 psi pressure vessel. All it needs to state as limitations for the
TDC in the US is 2.5 Gs and 8.7 psi.)
Wing Commander Gordon
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List)
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors <<
Date: Dec 11, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits,
just loading and speed restrictions.
Hello there, Old Bob,
It's very subtle. I found the load limits in the TCDS under required plac
ards. Not all a/c have placards about the load factors, so it's a hit or
miss method.
I think the AC-680 series and the T-Bones are a good side by side comparis
on. The original question about load factors came from the NTSB incident
report about a Commander coming apart in an area of T-storms flown by a
non-instrument rated pilot in IMC.
Given the weight and power of the aircraft in question, I gravitated towar
ds the the BE-55/58 and CE300 series as being in a similar group. I proba
bly did that because in the last millennium I was an AeroStar demo pilot
and was always put to the task of selling that Ted Smith design against
those Beech, Cessna and Piper products (and I just used to laugh at the
Piper products until Piper bought AeroStar).
It's an old habit, I guess.
By the way, I never mentioned this to you but the first twin I never flew
was Fes Parker's Excalibur T-Bone. One of the guys who bought it tossed
me the keys (I was a flight instructor at Watsonville and that's where th
e plane parked for a time) and told me to use if for my multi engine ratin
g.
I couldn't find an M.E.I. who knew anything about the airplane and the sca
nt 5 page AFM in the airplane didn't inspire any of them to self check-out
so they could give me dual.
Too bad I didn't know about you or Dick Ward back in 1974.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Facto
rs <<
Good Evening Wing Commander Gordon,
I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits,
just loading and speed restrictions.
Incidentally, I don't think the Cessna 300 and 400 series or the Barons ar
e in the same class as the Aero Commander. I think the best comparison air
craft would be the Beechcraft Twin Bonanza Model 50. My personal favorite
of that fleet is the D50B.
Wonder how those two (AC and T-Bone) would compare if over stressed?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/11/2010 5:45:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcra
ft(at)aol.com writes:
Sir Barry,
Well, that link I sent for Type Certificate Data Sheets bombed.
This should work: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/r
gMakeModel.nsf/
If not, just go to FAA.GOV and search for "type certificate data" and yo
u'll get a page with results and a link to their library.
This begs the question: "What is a comparable aircraft?" You'll prob
ably find that Barons and Cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft will all sh
are the same design data: 3.8g positive -- and some may give a negative
G value, some not.
However, they're all driven by Part 23.337:
Sec. 23.337
Limit maneuvering load factors.
(a) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n may not be less than--
(1) 2.1+ for normal category airplanes, except that n need not be more
than 3.8 nor may it be less than 2.5;
(2) 4.4 for utility category airplanes; or
(3) 6.0 for acrobatic category airplanes.
(b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than--
(1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal and utility catego
ries; or
(2) 0.5 times the positive load factor for the acrobatic category.
(c) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this section
may be used if the airplane has design features that make it impossible
to exceed these values in flight.
A manufacturer may decide to exceed the load factor strengths but I don'
t know where to find that, other than their advertising because to certi
fy they must comply with Part 23 and that's all the FAA is interested in
.
(An example is the Falcon 20 I fly. It's certified in the US as a Norma
l category turbine, Part 25 (large) airplane. However, it's an 8 G airf
rame and a 24 psi pressure vessel. All it needs to state as limitations
for the TDC in the US is 2.5 Gs and 8.7 psi.)
Wing Commander Gordon
========================
===========
ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
m/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
"http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
========================
===========
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Date: Dec 11, 2010
I UNDERSTAND. IT COULD BE... THANKS
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:28 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
Well, it=99s not definite that =98your=99 680 is the
one that ended up with the Colombian Navy, as per the photo.
It=99s just that of those Commanders that I know of in Colombia,
but don=99t know the aircraft=99s serial number, the shot of
the Navy one is the only 680 that I know of.
There could well be others that I=99m not aware of.
For instance, some military serials have been reported, but the Model
hasn=99t been.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd
silverman
Sent: 11 December 2010 04:07
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Barry, I rec'd them all .Great pix. I have no idea when it go the nose
job. Will send tale of how it got into the Colombian navy while I'm
still listed as one of the owners by UNCLE SAM (F.A.A.). Many thanks for
your great work. I never thought id see pix of n6851S again. Lloyd
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:45 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
I sent an email to you yesterday with some attached files.
I presume it got to you OK?
Best Regards,
Barry
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of lloyd silverman
Sent: 10 December 2010 03:21
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
barry, my direct email address is
LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM Thanks for your great
work.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
Hi Lloyd,
Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a
joint owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia.
I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on
its history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long
story=9D!
Best Regards,
Barry
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of lloyd silverman
Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG
STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B
N6290X).
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman<mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Stan,
Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are
South of the border!
So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put
finger to keyboard.
I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX.
I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition.
No engines and, as you noted, no rudder.
I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I
have, but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on
www.myaviation.net<http://www.myaviation.net/>, taken on 01May08.
However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10,
reveals that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport
perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response
of emergency procedures.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
Behalf Of swperk(at)earthlink.net
Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires
swperk(at)earthlink.net
Hi Barry,
You may already know about this one, but just to show that I
also appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about
a Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos
Aires.
Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for
a while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite
where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I
could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it.
Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of
what appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to
fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is
missing (at least) the rudder.
I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I
had a window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated
just as we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail
a few photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry,
since I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at
120 knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful.
BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell.
I've been to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few
corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2.
All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the
Annual link Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The
Builder's Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your
generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features
Chat, <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matnbsp; via
the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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ntribution>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">http://www.matronics.com/ctitle=htt
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atronics.com<http://forums.matronics.com/>
www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.
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sthttp://forums.matronics.com
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on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
m/Navigator?Commander-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors <<
Date: Dec 11, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI KIDS.All STD category airplanes are certified to +3.8Gs and - 1.5, no
matter who makes them. Utility category is +4.4, and aerobatic +6 -3.
The first Commander certified as a utility airplane was the 500U (Utility
). The gross weight of a single engine airplane is set by the structural
G load for the appropriate category. You often see an airplane certified
in both categories at different gross weights. (lower weight for operatio
ns in the utility category)
Multi engine airplanes gross weight is set by a combination of structural
G loading
and single engine climb performance. That is why you see different gross
weights for the same Commander airframe. For instance, a straight 680 ha
s the same engines as the 680E but has a gross weight 500 pounds less than
a 680E. The E has a greater wingspan giving it a better climb rate at gr
oss weight on one engine.
When the 680s were converted to an "E" at the factory, they received the
gross weight increases even though there were no structural improvements,
only the increased wing span. Hope that helps. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 6:49 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factor
s <<
I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits,
just loading and speed restrictions.
Hello there, Old Bob,
It's very subtle. I found the load limits in the TCDS under required plac
ards. Not all a/c have placards about the load factors, so it's a hit or
miss method.
I think the AC-680 series and the T-Bones are a good side by side comparis
on. The original question about load factors came from the NTSB incident
report about a Commander coming apart in an area of T-storms flown by a
non-instrument rated pilot in IMC.
Given the weight and power of the aircraft in question, I gravitated towar
ds the the BE-55/58 and CE300 series as being in a similar group. I proba
bly did that because in the last millennium I was an AeroStar demo pilot
and was always put to the task of selling that Ted Smith design against
those Beech, Cessna and Piper products (and I just used to laugh at the
Piper products until Piper bought AeroStar).
It's an old habit, I guess.
By the way, I never mentioned this to you but the first twin I never flew
was Fes Parker's Excalibur T-Bone. One of the guys who bought it tossed
me the keys (I was a flight instructor at Watsonville and that's where th
e plane parked for a time) and told me to use if for my multi engine ratin
g.
I couldn't find an M.E.I. who knew anything about the airplane and the sca
nt 5 page AFM in the airplane didn't inspire any of them to self check-out
so they could give me dual.
Too bad I didn't know about you or Dick Ward back in 1974.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factor
s <<
Good Evening Wing Commander Gordon,
I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits,
just loading and speed restrictions.
Incidentally, I don't think the Cessna 300 and 400 series or the Barons ar
e in the same class as the Aero Commander. I think the best comparison air
craft would be the Beechcraft Twin Bonanza Model 50. My personal favorite
of that fleet is the D50B.
Wonder how those two (AC and T-Bone) would compare if over stressed?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/11/2010 5:45:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcra
ft(at)aol.com writes:
Sir Barry,
Well, that link I sent for Type Certificate Data Sheets bombed.
This should work: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgM
akeModel.nsf/
If not, just go to FAA.GOV and search for "type certificate data" and you'
ll get a page with results and a link to their library.
This begs the question: "What is a comparable aircraft?" You'll probably
find that Barons and Cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft will all share th
e same design data: 3.8g positive -- and some may give a negative G value
, some not.
However, they're all driven by Part 23.337:
Sec. 23.337
Limit maneuvering load factors.
(a) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n may not be less than--
(1) 2.1+ for normal category airplanes, except that n need not be more tha
n 3.8 nor may it be less than 2.5;
(2) 4.4 for utility category airplanes; or
(3) 6.0 for acrobatic category airplanes.
(b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than--
(1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal and utility categori
es; or
(2) 0.5 times the positive load factor for the acrobatic category.
(c) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this section ma
y be used if the airplane has design features that make it impossible to
exceed these values in flight.
A manufacturer may decide to exceed the load factor strengths but I don't
know where to find that, other than their advertising because to certify
they must comply with Part 23 and that's all the FAA is interested in.
(An example is the Falcon 20 I fly. It's certified in the US as a Normal
category turbine, Part 25 (large) airplane. However, it's an 8 G airfram
e and a 24 psi pressure vessel. All it needs to state as limitations for
the TDC in the US is 2.5 Gs and 8.7 psi.)
Wing Commander Gordon
========================
===========
ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
m/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
"http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
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t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma
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ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
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ic.com">www.aeroelectric.com
w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Facebook page
Date: Dec 11, 2010
Tom
Do you have an email adres to which I can send it off the list?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
I would like to change some of that story now that I am better informed but
I understand that what is ever out there stays out there.
T...
----- Original Message -----
From: cybersuperstore <mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page
Hi Tom.
Yes, I made reference to the fact that you lost that particular bird in the
ocean with some other precious things. I have the whole story and additional
pictures somewhere and will eventually come across it. I'll add the
registration to the pics.
Thanks
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
The green 500B was mine and you are missing the Canadian registration
C-FBCR.
I like the site.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: cybersuperstore <mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:49 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page
Folks,
I added another bunch of photographs to the Aero Commander Facebook Page.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884
Click on the Like This button to be notified when new stuff goes up.
If you find anything out of place or duplicated, or have suggestions as how
to arrange things, I welcome suggestions.
Thanks
Nico
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Wilson <sr14572(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Facebook page
Date: Dec 12, 2010
Nice pussy lips
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 12, 2010, at 12:13 AM, "cybersuperstore" w
rote:
> Tom
> Do you have an email adres to which I can send it off the list?
> Nico
>
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li
st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:21 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
>
> I would like to change some of that story now that I am better informed bu
t I understand that what is ever out there stays out there.
> T...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cybersuperstore
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:49 PM
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page
>
> Hi Tom.
> Yes, I made reference to the fact that you lost that particular bird in th
e ocean with some other precious things. I have the whole story and addition
al pictures somewhere and will eventually come across it. I'll add the regis
tration to the pics.
> Thanks
> Nico
>
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li
st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:29 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
>
> The green 500B was mine and you are missing the Canadian registration C-FB
CR.
> I like the site.
> Tom...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cybersuperstore
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:49 PM
> Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page
>
> Folks,
>
> I added another bunch of photographs to the Aero Commander Facebook Page.
>
> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884
>
> Click on the Like This button to be notified when new stuff goes up.
>
> If you find anything out of place or duplicated, or have suggestions as ho
w to arrange things, I welcome suggestions.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Nico
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
Date: Dec 12, 2010
Hmmmmm, cameras in the GPS, something more to be cautious of, and my
greatest fear has been the guy in my gym locker room who always seems to
be on his cell phone.
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
From: Keith S. Gordon
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR
Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS?
What on earth will be next I ask!?!
I know. It's getting ridiculous. Cameras are built into everything now.
Maybe that's good, but I have my concerns!
Knowing you as I do, I made the data plates a priority. Too bad the
lighting was so flat and dim in the gray overcast yesterday. My digital
camera (that has a built in camera) is on the charger and will go into
my flight bag for the next trip.
Best,
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 12:13 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR
Hi Keith,
I=99m really grateful to you for the shots of two of
John=99s Commanders, especially the s/n plates as I=99m
trying to build up a collection of these in order to get the
Manufacturer=99s Aircraft Association=99s 6-digit s/n plate
numbers.
Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS?
What on earth will be next I ask!?!
Really great to hear from you again.
Very Best Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Facebook page
Date: Dec 12, 2010
Gary,
Your greeting begs the question "what do you normally do with your
iPhone?
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: Gary Wilson
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
Nice pussy lips
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 12, 2010, at 12:13 AM, "cybersuperstore"
wrote:
Tom
Do you have an email adres to which I can send it off the list?
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:21 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
I would like to change some of that story now that I am better
informed but I understand that what is ever out there stays out there.
T...
----- Original Message -----
From: cybersuperstore
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page
Hi Tom.
Yes, I made reference to the fact that you lost that particular bird
in the ocean with some other precious things. I have the whole story and
additional pictures somewhere and will eventually come across it. I'll
add the registration to the pics.
Thanks
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:29 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
The green 500B was mine and you are missing the Canadian
registration C-FBCR.
I like the site.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: cybersuperstore
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:49 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page
Folks,
I added another bunch of photographs to the Aero Commander
Facebook Page.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884
Click on the Like This button to be notified when new stuff goes
up.
If you find anything out of place or duplicated, or have
suggestions as how to arrange things, I welcome suggestions.
Thanks
Nico
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 12, 2010
From: "sr14572(at)yahoo.com" <sr14572(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Facebook page
hahaha, it was an email from my nephew, and I forwarded to all my perverted
=0Abuddies.- only, i didnt check the list when I sent it.- Only notice
d it after I =0Asent it.- Believe me, I was embarrased.-- =0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspi
stons(at)hotmail.com>=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, December
12, 2010 4:35:34 PM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page=0A=0A=0AG
ary,=0A-=0AYour greeting begs the question "what do you normally do with
your iPhone?=0A-=0AMoe Mills=0AN680RR=0A680Fp=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Gary Wilso
n =0ASent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:51 PM=0ATo: commander-list@matroni
cs.com =0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page=0A=0ANice pussy lips
=0A=0ASent from my iPhone=0A=0AOn Dec 12, 2010, at 12:13 AM, "cybersupersto
re" =0Awrote:=0A=0A=0ATom=0A>Do you have an emai
l adres to which I can send it off the list?=0A>Nico=0A>-=0A>=0A>=0A_____
___________________________=0AFrom: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.c
om =0A[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom F
isher=0A>Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:21 PM=0A>To: commander-list@matr
onics.com=0A>Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page=0A>=0A>=0A>I would
like to change some of that story now that I am better informed but I =0A>u
nderstand that what is ever out there stays out there.=0A>T...=0A>----- Ori
ginal Message ----- =0A>>From: cybersuperstore =0A>>To: commander-list@matr
onics.com =0A>>Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:49 PM=0A>>Subject: RE: Com
mander-List: Facebook page=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Hi Tom. =0A>>Yes, I made reference
to the fact that you lost that particular bird in the =0A>>ocean with some
other precious things. I have the whole story and additional =0A>>pictures
somewhere and will-eventually come across it. I'll add the registration
=0A>>to the pics. =0A>>=0A>>Thanks=0A>>Nico=0A>>-=0A>>=0A>>=0A___________
_____________________=0AFrom: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher
=0A>>Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:29 PM=0A>>To: commander-list@matroni
cs.com=0A>>Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>The gre
en 500B was mine and you are missing the Canadian registration C-FBCR.=0A>>
I like the site.=0A>>Tom...=0A>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>From: cy
bersuperstore =0A>>>To: commander-list(at)matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Saturday,
December 04, 2010 8:49 PM=0A>>>Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page=0A>>>
=0A>>>=0A>>>Folks, =0A>>>-=0A>>>I added another bunch of photographs to t
he Aero Commander Facebook Page. =0A>>>-=0A>>>http://www.facebook.com/#!/
pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884=0A>>>-=0A>>>Click on the Like This b
utton to be notified when new stuff goes up.=0A>>>-=0A>>>If you find anyt
hing out of place or duplicated, or have suggestions as how to =0A>>>arrang
e things, I welcome suggestions. =0A>>>=0A>>>-=0A>>>Thanks=0A>>>-=0A>>>
-=0A>>>Nico=0A>>>-=0A>>>-=0A>>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com"
>www.aeroelectric.com =0A>>>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.build
ersbooks.com =0A>>>href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.
com =0A>>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matroni
cs.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://w
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0A>>> href="http://forums.matro
nics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =0A>>>=0A> href="http://www.aeroel
ectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com =0A>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">
www.buildersbooks.com =0A>href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebui
lthelp.com =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.ma
tronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0A> href="http://forums.ma
tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =0A>=0A> href="http://www.aeroe
lectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com =0A>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
>www.buildersbooks.com =0A>href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebu
ilthelp.com =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.m
atronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0A> href="http://forums.m
atronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =0A>=0A href="http://www.aeroe
lectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com =0Ahref="http://www.buildersbooks.com">
www.buildersbooks.com =0Ahref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuil
thelp.com =0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matr
onics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http:
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0A href="http://forums.matro
nics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =0A=0A =0A3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A href='3D"http:
//www.aeroelectric.com"'>www.aeroelectric.com =0Ahref='3D"http://www.buil
dersbooks.com"'>www.buildersbooks.com =0Ahref='3D"http://www.homebuilthel
p.com"'>www.homebuilthelp.com =0Ahref='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref='3D"http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Co
mmander-List3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3Dhref='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matro
nics.com=0A3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
================ =0A=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Rare Placard
Date: Dec 12, 2010
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7342679
<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7342679&l=b0b8f0ff64&id=772710347>
&l=b0b8f0ff64&id=772710347
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Rare Placard
Date: Dec 12, 2010
How about the DC-10 in Detroit I think, many years ago. #1 as I recall,
got the head of Maintenance nicknamed, =9CForklift=9D but
didn=99t stop him, became chief pilot for Frank Lorenzo and later
CEO of Value Jet.
Don
From: cybersuperstore
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Rare Placard
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7342679&l=b0b8f0ff64&id=77271
0347
________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 12, 2010
Subject: Re: Rare Placard
Good Evening Don,
I do not recall the accident in Detroit, but I do remember the AAL DC-10
that had an engine fall off during a takeoff at Chicago's O'Hare airport.
That was eventually traced to faulty maintenance when a forklift was used
to replace an engine and pylon as one piece. A slip up occurred and the
accident occurred later. It is my understanding that the supervisor who
was
responsible for the operation committed suicide. Anyone know otherwise?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
PS I feel they should have placed the blame at least partially on the FAA
as AAL was complying with a completely unnecessary AD that required the
removal and inspection of the pylon mounting bolts.
In a message dated 12/12/2010 5:33:53 P.M. Central Standard Time,
dongirod(at)bellsouth.net writes:
How about the DC-10 in Detroit I think, many years ago. #1 as I recall,
got the head of Maintenance nicknamed, =9CForklift=9D but didn
't stop him,
became chief pilot for Frank Lorenzo and later CEO of Value Jet.
Don
From: _cybersuperstore_ (mailto:nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Rare Placard
_http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7342679&l=b0b8f0ff64&id=77271
0347_
(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7342679&l=b0b8f0ff64&id=77271
0347)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Facebook page
Date: Dec 12, 2010
tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: cybersuperstore
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page
Tom
Do you have an email adres to which I can send it off the list?
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:21 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
I would like to change some of that story now that I am better
informed but I understand that what is ever out there stays out there.
T...
----- Original Message -----
From: cybersuperstore
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page
Hi Tom.
Yes, I made reference to the fact that you lost that particular bird
in the ocean with some other precious things. I have the whole story and
additional pictures somewhere and will eventually come across it. I'll
add the registration to the pics.
Thanks
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:29 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page
The green 500B was mine and you are missing the Canadian
registration C-FBCR.
I like the site.
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: cybersuperstore
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:49 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page
Folks,
I added another bunch of photographs to the Aero Commander
Facebook Page.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884
Click on the Like This button to be notified when new stuff goes
up.
If you find anything out of place or duplicated, or have
suggestions as how to arrange things, I welcome suggestions.
Thanks
Nico
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 12, 2010
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 680FP
Clean looking 1962 680FP on ebay, low time nice interior, N198JW
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Rare Placard
Date: Dec 12, 2010
Old Bob
You may be correct, I know it was in the Detroit area, might have been
Chicago.
I had always been told it was Joe Leonard, hence the name
=9CForklift=9D or =9CForklift Joe=9D, Lorenzo
brought him to Eastern as Chief Pilot, later he went to Value Jet/ Air
Tran, as President/CEO at the time I was flying the L-1011, and talking
to a Lockheed Tec/Rep who laughed at how Douglas used I think he said
three half inch bolts or something like that to secure that rather large
engine compared to Lockheed with their RB-211 engines using double that
number and much larger bolts. But it didn=99t stop anyone with
the right connections, Value Jet had numerous
=98incidents=99 then a major accident killing everyone on
board in FL. that was a joke in the way it was handled, just changed the
name and it was business as usual.
Think it was an American DC-10 Capt. that had numerous violations as he
refused to keep the aircraft under 200 knots close to the airport and
low, but after that incident with the DC-10 crash all violation were
dropped. With the increased speed, the aircraft could have maintained
control, but not at the slower speed.
Funny how these thing never come out in the newspaper.
Don
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com ,
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Rare Placard
Good Evening Don,
I do not recall the accident in Detroit, but I do remember the AAL DC-10
that had an engine fall off during a takeoff at Chicago's O'Hare
airport.
That was eventually traced to faulty maintenance when a forklift was
used to replace an engine and pylon as one piece. A slip up occurred and
the accident occurred later. It is my understanding that the supervisor
who was responsible for the operation committed suicide. Anyone know
otherwise?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
PS I feel they should have placed the blame at least partially on the
FAA as AAL was complying with a completely unnecessary AD that required
the removal and inspection of the pylon mounting bolts.
In a message dated 12/12/2010 5:33:53 P.M. Central Standard Time,
dongirod(at)bellsouth.net writes:
How about the DC-10 in Detroit I think, many years ago. #1 as I
recall, got the head of Maintenance nicknamed,
=9CForklift=9D but didn't stop him, became chief pilot for
Frank Lorenzo and later CEO of Value Jet.
Don
From: cybersuperstore
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 5:21 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Rare Placard
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=7342679&l=b0b8f0ff64&id=77271
0347
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Air Force One Commander
Date: Dec 12, 2010
I posted the following about the AFO Commanders on the Commander Facebook
site. I will stumble on the others and post them too. Particularly
interesting is the article in "The Flying White House".
Thanks
Nico
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=37552
<http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=37552&id=144424762275884>
&id=144424762275884
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 13, 2010
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: DC 10
At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing, he
said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that are not
so.
Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insight
into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in
Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to the
elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of ORD
that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft
taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices on
the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraft to
roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge
devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S could
retract.
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. Most
DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no 200k
speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life that
haveclean minimummaneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being one of
them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get
permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I
recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on
weight.
dan farmer
N6369U
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: DC 10
Date: Dec 13, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this sc
enario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I'
ve been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine
failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain
current speed?
The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the gr
eater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to
do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained.
In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices ret
racted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraf
t would have been controllable at V2 +.
Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid
reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne
beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D cu
rves and all that complicated stuff.
Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point
out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Comma
nder should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest.
Keith S. Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am
Subject: Commander-List: DC 10
At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing
, he
said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that ar
e not
so.
Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insig
ht
into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in
Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to
the
elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of
ORD
that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft
taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices
on
the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraf
t to
roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge
devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S cou
ld
retract.
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
Most
DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no
200k
speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life
that
have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being on
e of
them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get
permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As
I
recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on
weight.
dan farmer
N6369U
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DC 10
Date: Dec 13, 2010
Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F?
=46rom my iPhone 4!
On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:20 AM, "Keith S. Gordon" wrote:
> As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
>
> I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this sc
enario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I've
been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine failu
re at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain current s
peed?
>
> The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the gr
eater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to d
o: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained.
>
> In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices ret
racted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraft w
ould have been controllable at V2 +.
>
> Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid
reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne bey
ond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D curves a
nd all that complicated stuff.
>
> Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point o
ut we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Commander
should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest.
>
> Keith S. Gordon
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
> NBAA Access Committee
> Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
> Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
> Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
> To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am
> Subject: Commander-List: DC 10
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing
, he
>
>
> said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that ar
e not
>
>
> so.
>
>
>
>
>
> Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insig
ht
>
>
> into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in
>
>
> Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to
the
>
>
> elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of O
RD
>
>
> that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft
>
>
> taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices
on
>
>
> the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraf
t to
>
>
> roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge
>
>
> devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S cou
ld
>
>
> retract.
>
>
> As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
Most
>
>
>
>
>
> DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no
200k
>
>
> speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life t
hat
>
>
> have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being on
e of
>
>
> them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get
>
>
> permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I
>
>
> recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on
>
>
> weight.
>
>
> dan farmer
>
>
> N6369U
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =========================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
> m" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>
>
> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
>
>
>
>
> "_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =========================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>
>
>
> =========================
>
>
>
>
>
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
> =========================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: DC 10
Date: Dec 13, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F?
The very short answer is, "no." Sorry!
~KG~
-----Original Message-----
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 9:08 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10
Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F?
>From my iPhone 4!
On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:20 AM, "Keith S. Gordon" wrote:
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this sc
enario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I'
ve been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine
failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain
current speed?
The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the gr
eater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to
do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained.
In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices ret
racted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraf
t would have been controllable at V2 +.
Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid
reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne
beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D cu
rves and all that complicated stuff.
Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point
out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Comma
nder should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest.
Keith S. Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am
Subject: Commander-List: DC 10
At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing
, he
said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that ar
e not
so.
Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insig
ht
into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in
Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to
the
elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of
ORD
that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft
taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices
on
the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraf
t to
roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge
devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S cou
ld
retract.
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
Most
DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no
200k
speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life
that
have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being on
e of
them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get
permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As
I
recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on
weight.
dan farmer
N6369U
========================
===========
"_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
m" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: DC 10
Date: Dec 13, 2010
I believe for my 560E, it is 90 knots with 110 knots as the best single
engine climb speed.
Don
From: Keith S. Gordon
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10
Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F?
The very short answer is, "no." Sorry!
~KG~
-----Original Message-----
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 9:08 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10
Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F?
>From my iPhone 4!
On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:20 AM, "Keith S. Gordon"
wrote:
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good
story.
I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but
this scenario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and
recurrent I've been through since that crash when the question is asked
about engine failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed
or maintain current speed?
The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain
the greater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was
trained to do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained.
In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices
retracted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the
aircraft would have been controllable at V2 +.
Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more)
valid reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure
airborne beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L
over D curves and all that complicated stuff.
Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to
point out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a
Twin Commander should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the
slowest.
Keith S. Gordon
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am
Subject: Commander-List: DC 10
At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications:
paraphrasing, he
said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that
are not
so.
Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little
insight
into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10
in
Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables
to the
elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out
of ORD
that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the
aircraft
taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge
devices on
the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the
aircraft to
roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge
devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S
could
retract.
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good
story. Most
DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is
no 200k
speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my
life that
have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being
one of
them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to
get
permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As
I
recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending
on
weight.
dan farmer
N6369U
"_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
m" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: DC 10
Date: Dec 13, 2010
Dan
Never having flown the DC-10, I was not aware of the exemption. I remember
in Eastern training in MIA, think it was B-727, and the pilot sped up to
250K after leaving MIA going to Nassau, to which the instructor asked him
about a violation. He stated he was out of the TCA, but what he didn't
realize was when he left MIA TCA he was in Nassau's TCA so he was never
allow to go from 200K to 250 K. I do know that single engine fighters are
exempt due to minimum engine start speeds.
You stated there is no 200K speed restriction in the TCA? I was under the
impression there was a speed restriction within 5 nm (I think) and below
maybe 3,000 ft., is this not so or does it fall under you Ronald Reagan
classification?
Thanks for the info, learn something every day.
Don
Subject: Commander-List: DC 10
At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing,
he
said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that are
not
so.
Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insight
into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in
Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to
the
elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of
ORD
that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft
taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices
on
the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraft
to
roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge
devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S could
retract.
As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story.
Most
DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no
200k
speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life
that
have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being one
of
them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get
permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I
recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on
weight.
dan farmer
N6369U
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Class B speed
Date: Dec 13, 2010
Dan
Here is what I was looking for, contrary to Ronald Reagan;
Lets have a look at 91.117 (b):
"Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate
an aircraft at or below 2500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical
miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an
indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (...)"
Don
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2010
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: 2010 List of Contributors
Dear Listers,
The 2010 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its
the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible.
Their generous contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and
running.
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, and Andy for their generous support through the
supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and I encourage
you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2010 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2010.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2010
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Class B/ Speed
Don,
I am not sure if you agree with me or not. FAA 91.117b last sentence reads
"This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operation within class B airspace
area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section" Referring
to P.(a) it limits speed to 250K below 10K.
As to the exemption to exceed 250 for aircraft requirements, I do not know where
to find it, I just know it is done all the time. On a couple occasions I have
been ask to say speed and nothing was said if the reply to ATC was 300K.
dan f
________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 14, 2010
Subject: Re: Class B/ Speed
Good Morning All,
It has been over twenty-one years since I last flew a "dash thirty" DC-10,
but our company policy at that time was to advise ATC any time we found it
necessary to exceed the 250 knot restriction. Most of the time, we would
just leave some flaps hanging out until we got above ten thousand feet. The
only response I ever got when I did mention the problem was "Thanks United".
Have times changed or was that just my company's way of doing things?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/14/2010 8:17:46 A.M. Central Standard Time,
daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com writes:
--> Commander-List message posted by: Dan Farmer
Don,
I am not sure if you agree with me or not. FAA 91.117b last sentence
reads
"This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operation within class B
airspace
area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section"
Referring
to P.(a) it limits speed to 250K below 10K.
As to the exemption to exceed 250 for aircraft requirements, I do not know
where
to find it, I just know it is done all the time. On a couple occasions I
have
been ask to say speed and nothing was said if the reply to ATC was 300K.
dan f
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Class B/ Speed
Date: Dec 14, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
You'll probably note from my tag line that I'm neck deep in Class B ops an
d redesign for Las Vegas. 91.117 allows 250 knots from the SURFACE of the
Class B airport and through Class B airspace. Example: You're departing
Atlanta. You can accelerate to 250 knots right away -- and ATC expects
this.
Houston had an experimental program (via Special FAR) for a number of year
s that allowed 300 knots in Class B. That program is finished.
If your aircraft (DC-10) has a design requirement for a higher speed withi
n Class B that's understood by ATC.
If you exceed 250 knots in Class B in a type that does not need to go fast
er and ATC asks your speed they are not going to violate you. 99% of all
of the ATC guys I work with have the mantra, "We're not traffic cops."
That statement is not made by FSDO inspectors.
In the world of RNAV SIDs and STARs procedure development, "containment"
and turn anticipation is based on an indicated 250 knots in Class B, conv
erted to TAS for the altitude the aircraft is at over the fix, plus a cons
tant tailwind factor, usually 60 knots.
Blow out of containment because you're flying too fast and it could result
in a QA -- Quality Assurance -- report by ATC and those find their way to
FSDO for review.
Keith S. Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 14, 2010 6:14 am
Subject: Commander-List: Class B/ Speed
Don,
I am not sure if you agree with me or not. FAA 91.117b last sentence rea
ds
"This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operation within class B airspa
ce
area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section" Ref
erring
to P.(a) it limits speed to 250K below 10K.
As to the exemption to exceed 250 for aircraft requirements, I do not know
where
to find it, I just know it is done all the time. On a couple occasions I
have
been ask to say speed and nothing was said if the reply to ATC was 300K.
dan f
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Class B/ Speed
Date: Dec 14, 2010
Dan
I agree with you, it is my understanding, that to exceed the 250
limitations, it's as simple as a radio call. Lots of references when I
Googled "Class B airspeed restrictions"
As I think back on the statement I made about flying between MIA and Nassau
MANY years ago, I think what happened was the speeding up above 250 when 6
miles offshore but below 10K, but you were still in the TCA so therefore
could not. Been a long time, but I think that is what happened.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Farmer
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 9:14 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Class B/ Speed
Don,
I am not sure if you agree with me or not. FAA 91.117b last sentence reads
"This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operation within class B airspace
area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section"
Referring
to P.(a) it limits speed to 250K below 10K.
As to the exemption to exceed 250 for aircraft requirements, I do not know
where
to find it, I just know it is done all the time. On a couple occasions I
have
been ask to say speed and nothing was said if the reply to ATC was 300K.
dan f
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: South African Commanders
Date: Dec 14, 2010
Folks,
Carl Dollenberg responded to some of my posts on a website somewhere about
Commanders in South Africa. The latest post to our Facebook page
(http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884) contains
pictures that I took a while ago and Carl was kind enough to fill in the
blanks. The other 690 was KZY whose pictures I will post as soon as I
stumble upon them.
Sir Barry, perhaps you knew of the fate of a Commander (JRF) on its way to
the U.S. Carl's abbreviated account is below. I invited Carl to join our
chat list should he be so inclined.
Thanks
Nico
Hi Nico,
That is one of ESCOM's 1000's. They have KZY and KZZ. ZS-KZX was sold to
the US a few years back. The SA Weather Service have ZS-JRA (11284) and
ZS-JRB (11248) that are used for weather modification. ZS-JRH (Ex ESCOM
Kimberly) is now being used as a geographical survey aircraft.
ZS-JRC is standing almost derelict at Grand Central as V5-MGF.
ZS-JRD was exported to the US in the 80's
ZS-JRF went missing en-route to the US somewhere between Windhoek and Gabon,
There is still no word as to what happened to the aircraft. It is presumed
that they were either shot down over Angola or ditched of the Angolan Coast.
Tony Geddy(sp) and Slim Bird were the crew involved
ZS-JRZ Exported to the US in the 80's
I will speak to my father who knew all the commanders in SA and find out
their fate.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Class B/ Speed
-->
Dan
I agree with you, it is my understanding, that to exceed the 250
limitations, it's as simple as a radio call. Lots of references when I
Googled "Class B airspeed restrictions"
As I think back on the statement I made about flying between MIA and Nassau
MANY years ago, I think what happened was the speeding up above 250 when 6
miles offshore but below 10K, but you were still in the TCA so therefore
could not. Been a long time, but I think that is what happened.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Farmer
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 9:14 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Class B/ Speed
-->
Don,
I am not sure if you agree with me or not. FAA 91.117b last sentence reads
"This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operation within class B airspace
area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section"
Referring
to P.(a) it limits speed to 250K below 10K.
As to the exemption to exceed 250 for aircraft requirements, I do not know
where to find it, I just know it is done all the time. On a couple
occasions I have been ask to say speed and nothing was said if the reply to
ATC was 300K.
dan f
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2010
From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 90 years old
If you like heart warming pilot stories go to http://www.roanoke.com/269850
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: South African Commanders
Date: Dec 15, 2010
Hi Nico,
I did indeed know about the fate of ZS-JRF, but the full details are still a
mystery.
The Registration ZS-JRF was cancelled on 02Nov84, as exported to the USA.
On the same day, US marks N690RC were assigned to this Commander, for Skytel
Aviation Inc., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
A Special Flight Permit was then issued on 20Nov84 for ferry from Harare,
Zimbabwe to Oklahoma City.
The Commander was evidently destroyed, probably on 05Dec84 and is believed
to have crashed into the Atlantic Ocean somewhere between Windhoek, Namibia
and Abidjan, Ivory Coast.
The question is, was it marked as ZS-JRF, or N690RC?
Strangely, it seems to have been Registered again as ZS-JRF on 11Jul88, then
cancelled again on 16Aug93, while N690RC was cancelled on 31May95.
Do you have an email address for Carl Dollenberg and I'll contact him to see
if we can get this one "sorted"!
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: 15 December 2010 06:31
Subject: RE: Commander-List: South African Commanders
-->
Folks,
Carl Dollenberg responded to some of my posts on a website somewhere about
Commanders in South Africa. The latest post to our Facebook page
(http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884) contains
pictures that I took a while ago and Carl was kind enough to fill in the
blanks. The other 690 was KZY whose pictures I will post as soon as I
stumble upon them.
Sir Barry, perhaps you knew of the fate of a Commander (JRF) on its way to
the U.S. Carl's abbreviated account is below. I invited Carl to join our
chat list should he be so inclined.
Thanks
Nico
Hi Nico,
That is one of ESCOM's 1000's. They have KZY and KZZ. ZS-KZX was sold to
the US a few years back. The SA Weather Service have ZS-JRA (11284) and
ZS-JRB (11248) that are used for weather modification. ZS-JRH (Ex ESCOM
Kimberly) is now being used as a geographical survey aircraft.
ZS-JRC is standing almost derelict at Grand Central as V5-MGF.
ZS-JRD was exported to the US in the 80's
ZS-JRF went missing en-route to the US somewhere between Windhoek and Gabon,
There is still no word as to what happened to the aircraft.
It is presumed that they were either shot down over Angola or ditched of the
Angolan Coast.
Tony Geddy(sp) and Slim Bird were the crew involved
ZS-JRZ Exported to the US in the 80's
I will speak to my father who knew all the commanders in SA and find out
their fate.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roland Gilliam <amg3636(at)Hotmail.com>
Subject: 90 years old
Date: Dec 15, 2010
This airport is near where Audie Murphy died in a Commander crash.
Roland AC 6291B
> Date: Wed=2C 15 Dec 2010 04:04:41 -0800
> From: daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com
> Subject: Commander-List: 90 years old
> To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
>
>
>
> If you like heart warming pilot stories go to http://www.roanoke.com/2698
50
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: South African Commanders
Date: Dec 15, 2010
Hi Barry,
Certainly, here is Carl's email address. carl690(at)absamail.co.za
He alluded to the fact that his father might be more informed about South
African Commanders, so I'd like to encourage him to take that up with his
dad and perhaps give us more information and even perhaps pictures. Carl
sounded very informed about the Commanders I encountered and the '690' in
his email address is very promising.
Thanks
Nico
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:45 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: South African Commanders
--> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Nico,
I did indeed know about the fate of ZS-JRF, but the full details are still a
mystery.
The Registration ZS-JRF was cancelled on 02Nov84, as exported to the USA.
On the same day, US marks N690RC were assigned to this Commander, for Skytel
Aviation Inc., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
A Special Flight Permit was then issued on 20Nov84 for ferry from Harare,
Zimbabwe to Oklahoma City.
The Commander was evidently destroyed, probably on 05Dec84 and is believed
to have crashed into the Atlantic Ocean somewhere between Windhoek, Namibia
and Abidjan, Ivory Coast.
The question is, was it marked as ZS-JRF, or N690RC?
Strangely, it seems to have been Registered again as ZS-JRF on 11Jul88, then
cancelled again on 16Aug93, while N690RC was cancelled on 31May95.
Do you have an email address for Carl Dollenberg and I'll contact him to see
if we can get this one "sorted"!
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: 15 December 2010 06:31
Subject: RE: Commander-List: South African Commanders
-->
Folks,
Carl Dollenberg responded to some of my posts on a website somewhere about
Commanders in South Africa. The latest post to our Facebook page
(http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884) contains
pictures that I took a while ago and Carl was kind enough to fill in the
blanks. The other 690 was KZY whose pictures I will post as soon as I
stumble upon them.
Sir Barry, perhaps you knew of the fate of a Commander (JRF) on its way to
the U.S. Carl's abbreviated account is below. I invited Carl to join our
chat list should he be so inclined.
Thanks
Nico
Hi Nico,
That is one of ESCOM's 1000's. They have KZY and KZZ. ZS-KZX was sold to
the US a few years back. The SA Weather Service have ZS-JRA (11284) and
ZS-JRB (11248) that are used for weather modification. ZS-JRH (Ex ESCOM
Kimberly) is now being used as a geographical survey aircraft.
ZS-JRC is standing almost derelict at Grand Central as V5-MGF.
ZS-JRD was exported to the US in the 80's
ZS-JRF went missing en-route to the US somewhere between Windhoek and Gabon,
There is still no word as to what happened to the aircraft.
It is presumed that they were either shot down over Angola or ditched of the
Angolan Coast.
Tony Geddy(sp) and Slim Bird were the crew involved
ZS-JRZ Exported to the US in the 80's
I will speak to my father who knew all the commanders in SA and find out
their fate.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: South African Commanders
Date: Dec 15, 2010
Hi Nico,
Carl is indeed very knowledgeable about the South African Register.
He has a website covering their Registrations, at:
www.avdex.co.za/saregister/
but one needs to Register before accessing data.
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: 15 December 2010 16:23
Subject: RE: Commander-List: South African Commanders
-->
Hi Barry,
Certainly, here is Carl's email address. carl690(at)absamail.co.za
He alluded to the fact that his father might be more informed about South
African Commanders, so I'd like to encourage him to take that up with his
dad and perhaps give us more information and even perhaps pictures. Carl
sounded very informed about the Commanders I encountered and the '690' in
his email address is very promising.
Thanks
Nico
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:45 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: South African Commanders
--> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Hi Nico,
I did indeed know about the fate of ZS-JRF, but the full details are still a
mystery.
The Registration ZS-JRF was cancelled on 02Nov84, as exported to the USA.
On the same day, US marks N690RC were assigned to this Commander, for Skytel
Aviation Inc., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
A Special Flight Permit was then issued on 20Nov84 for ferry from Harare,
Zimbabwe to Oklahoma City.
The Commander was evidently destroyed, probably on 05Dec84 and is believed
to have crashed into the Atlantic Ocean somewhere between Windhoek, Namibia
and Abidjan, Ivory Coast.
The question is, was it marked as ZS-JRF, or N690RC?
Strangely, it seems to have been Registered again as ZS-JRF on 11Jul88, then
cancelled again on 16Aug93, while N690RC was cancelled on 31May95.
Do you have an email address for Carl Dollenberg and I'll contact him to see
if we can get this one "sorted"!
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: 15 December 2010 06:31
Subject: RE: Commander-List: South African Commanders
-->
Folks,
Carl Dollenberg responded to some of my posts on a website somewhere about
Commanders in South Africa. The latest post to our Facebook page
(http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884) contains
pictures that I took a while ago and Carl was kind enough to fill in the
blanks. The other 690 was KZY whose pictures I will post as soon as I
stumble upon them.
Sir Barry, perhaps you knew of the fate of a Commander (JRF) on its way to
the U.S. Carl's abbreviated account is below. I invited Carl to join our
chat list should he be so inclined.
Thanks
Nico
Hi Nico,
That is one of ESCOM's 1000's. They have KZY and KZZ. ZS-KZX was sold to
the US a few years back. The SA Weather Service have ZS-JRA (11284) and
ZS-JRB (11248) that are used for weather modification. ZS-JRH (Ex ESCOM
Kimberly) is now being used as a geographical survey aircraft.
ZS-JRC is standing almost derelict at Grand Central as V5-MGF.
ZS-JRD was exported to the US in the 80's
ZS-JRF went missing en-route to the US somewhere between Windhoek and Gabon,
There is still no word as to what happened to the aircraft.
It is presumed that they were either shot down over Angola or ditched of the
Angolan Coast.
Tony Geddy(sp) and Slim Bird were the crew involved
ZS-JRZ Exported to the US in the 80's
I will speak to my father who knew all the commanders in SA and find out
their fate.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: 90 years old
Date: Dec 15, 2010
Thanks Roland, I enjoyed that.
What model Commander did Audie Murphy die in?
Dpn
From: Roland Gilliam
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 90 years old
This airport is near where Audie Murphy died in a Commander crash.
Roland AC 6291B
> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 04:04:41 -0800
> From: daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com
> Subject: Commander-List: 90 years old
> To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
>
>
> If you like heart warming pilot stories go to
http://www.roanoke.com/269850
>
>
>
>
>
&g====================
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: 90 years old
Date: Dec 15, 2010
Hi Don,
The Commander was a 680E that had been converted from s/n 680-491-161,
registered N601JJ.
The accident happened on May 28th 1971, at Brush Mountain, 14 miles NW of
Roanoke, Virginia (NTSB Report IAD71AI055).
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod
Sent: 15 December 2010 19:23
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 90 years old
Thanks Roland, I enjoyed that.
What model Commander did Audie Murphy die in?
Dpn
From: Roland Gilliam <mailto:amg3636(at)Hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 90 years old
This airport is near where Audie Murphy died in a Commander crash.
Roland AC 6291B
> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 04:04:41 -0800
> From: daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com
> Subject: Commander-List: 90 years old
> To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
>
>
> If you like heart warming pilot stories go to
http://www.roanoke.com/269850
>
>
>
>
>
&g====================
>
>
>
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Bichier <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Subject: 90 years old
Date: Dec 15, 2010
Don,
the only accident involving an Aero Commander in Virginia (Roanoke)
was N601JJ a 680E flying VFR into IMC on May 28th.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=60064&key=0
NTSB Identification: IAD71AI055
14 CFR Part 91 General Aviation
Event occurred Friday, May 28, 1971 in ROANOKE, VA
Aircraft: AERO COMDR 680E, registration: N601JJ
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA
INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA
F S M/
N PURPOSE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3-1752 71/5/28 NR.ROANOKE,VA AERO COMDR 680E CR- 1 0
0 NONCOMMERCIAL PRIVATE, AGE 43, 8000
TIME - 1108 N601JJ PX- 5 0
0 BUSINESS TOTAL HOURS, UNK/NR IN
DAMAGE-DESTROYED OT- 0 0
0 TYPE, NOT INSTRUMENT
RATED
.
DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION
ATLANTA,GA MARTINSVILLE,VA
TYPE OF ACCIDENT
PHASE OF OPERATION
COLLISION WITH GROUND/WATER: CONTROLLED
IN FLIGHT: NORMAL CRUISE
PROBABLE CAUSE(S)
PILOT IN COMMAND - CONTINUED VFR FLIGHT INTO ADVERSE
WEATHER CONDITIONS
PILOT IN COMMAND - ATTEMPTED OPERATION BEYOND EXPERIENCE/
ABILITY LEVEL
WEATHER - LOW CEILING
WEATHER - RAIN
WEATHER - FOG
TERRAIN - HIGH OBSTRUCTIONS
WEATHER BRIEFING - BRIEFED BY FLIGHT SERVICE PERSONNEL, BY
PHONE
WEATHER FORECAST - FORECAST SUBSTANTIALLY CORRECT
MISSING AIRCRAFT - LATER RECOVERED
SKY CONDITION
CEILING AT ACCIDENT SITE
BROKEN/LOWER SCATTERED 0
VISIBILITY AT ACCIDENT SITE
PRECIPITATION AT ACCIDENT SITE
ZERO RAIN
OBSTRUCTIONS TO VISION AT ACCIDENT SITE TYPE
OF WEATHER CONDITIONS
FOG IFR
TYPE OF FLIGHT PLAN
VFR
FIRE AFTER IMPACT
REMARKS- RCVRY DATE 5/31/71.PLT CONTD FLT INTO ADVERSE
WX.ENTERED INST WX AT ALT TOO LO TO CLEAR MT.
On Dec 15, 2010, at 2:22 PM, dongirod wrote:
> Thanks Roland, I enjoyed that.
>
> What model Commander did Audie Murphy die in?
>
> Dpn
>
> From: Roland Gilliam
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:15 AM
> To: commander list
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: 90 years old
>
> This airport is near where Audie Murphy died in a Commander crash.
>
> Roland AC 6291B
>
> > Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 04:04:41 -0800
> > From: daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com
> > Subject: Commander-List: 90 years old
> > To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
> >
> >
> >
> > If you like heart warming pilot stories go to http://www.roanoke.com/269850
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> &g====================
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref=
> "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roland Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 90 years old
Date: Dec 15, 2010
I'm not sure Don=2C I remember it well. I lived in Greensboro N.C. at the t
ime=2C about a hunderd miles away. I'm sure Sir Barry could tell us. How a
bout it Sir Barry??
Roland
From: dongirod(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 90 years old
Date: Wed=2C 15 Dec 2010 14:22:50 -0500
Thanks Roland=2C I enjoyed that.
What model Commander did Audie Murphy die in?
Dpn
From: Roland Gilliam
Sent: Wednesday=2C December 15=2C 2010 8:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 90 years old
This airport is near where Audie Murphy died in a Commander crash.
Roland AC 6291B
> Date: Wed=2C 15 Dec 2010 04:04:41 -0800
> From: daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com
> Subject: Commander-List: 90 years old
> To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
>
>
>
> If you like heart warming pilot stories go to http://www.roanoke.com/2698
50
>
>
>
>
>
&g====================
>
>
>
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Wilson <sr14572(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 90 years old
Date: Dec 15, 2010
Audy murphy
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 15, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Peter Bichier wrote
:
> Don,
>
> the only accident involving an Aero Commander in Virginia (Roanoke) was N6
01JJ a 680E flying VFR into IMC on May 28th.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=60064&key=0
>
> NTSB Identification: IAD71AI055
> 14 CFR Part 91 General Aviation
> Event occurred Friday, May 28, 1971 in ROANOKE, VA
> Aircraft: AERO COMDR 680E, registration: N601JJ
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
> FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES
FLIGHT PILOT DATA
> F S M/N
PURPOSE
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
> 3-1752 71/5/28 NR.ROANOKE,VA AERO COMDR 680E CR- 1 0 0 N
ONCOMMERCIAL PRIVATE, AGE 43, 8000
> TIME - 1108 N601JJ PX- 5 0 0 B
USINESS TOTAL HOURS, UNK/NR IN
> DAMAGE-DESTROYED OT- 0 0 0
TYPE, NOT INSTRUMENT
>
RATED.
> DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION
> ATLANTA,GA MARTINSVILLE,VA
> TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF O
PERATION
> COLLISION WITH GROUND/WATER: CONTROLLED IN FLI
GHT: NORMAL CRUISE
> PROBABLE CAUSE(S)
> PILOT IN COMMAND - CONTINUED VFR FLIGHT INTO ADVERSE WEATHER CO
NDITIONS
> PILOT IN COMMAND - ATTEMPTED OPERATION BEYOND EXPERIENCE/ABILIT
Y LEVEL
> WEATHER - LOW CEILING
> WEATHER - RAIN
> WEATHER - FOG
> TERRAIN - HIGH OBSTRUCTIONS
> WEATHER BRIEFING - BRIEFED BY FLIGHT SERVICE PERSONNEL, BY PHONE
> WEATHER FORECAST - FORECAST SUBSTANTIALLY CORRECT
> MISSING AIRCRAFT - LATER RECOVERED
> SKY CONDITION CEILING A
T ACCIDENT SITE
> BROKEN/LOWER SCATTERED 0
> VISIBILITY AT ACCIDENT SITE PRECIPITA
TION AT ACCIDENT SITE
> ZERO RAIN
> OBSTRUCTIONS TO VISION AT ACCIDENT SITE TYPE OF W
EATHER CONDITIONS
> FOG IFR
> TYPE OF FLIGHT PLAN
> VFR
> FIRE AFTER IMPACT
> REMARKS- RCVRY DATE 5/31/71.PLT CONTD FLT INTO ADVERSE WX.ENTERED I
NST WX AT ALT TOO LO TO CLEAR MT.
>
> On Dec 15, 2010, at 2:22 PM, dongirod wrote:
>
>> Thanks Roland, I enjoyed that.
>>
>> What model Commander did Audie Murphy die in?
>>
>> Dpn
>>
>> From: Roland Gilliam
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:15 AM
>> To: commander list
>> Subject: RE: Commander-List: 90 years old
>>
>> This airport is near where Audie Murphy died in a Commander crash.
>>
>> Roland AC 6291B
>>
>> > Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 04:04:41 -0800
>> > From: daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com
>> > Subject: Commander-List: 90 years old
>> > To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
>> >
om>
>> >
>> > If you like heart warming pilot stories go to http://www.roanoke.com/26
9850
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> &g====================
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: 90 years old
Date: Dec 15, 2010
Thanks, Barry
Don
From: Barry Collman
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 90 years old
Hi Don,
The Commander was a 680E that had been converted from s/n 680-491-161,
registered N601JJ.
The accident happened on May 28th 1971, at Brush Mountain, 14 miles NW
of Roanoke, Virginia (NTSB Report IAD71AI055).
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod
Sent: 15 December 2010 19:23
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 90 years old
Thanks Roland, I enjoyed that.
What model Commander did Audie Murphy die in?
Dpn
From: Roland Gilliam
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:15 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: 90 years old
This airport is near where Audie Murphy died in a Commander crash.
Roland AC 6291B
> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 04:04:41 -0800
> From: daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com
> Subject: Commander-List: 90 years old
> To: commander-list-digest(at)matronics.com
>
>
> If you like heart warming pilot stories go to
http://www.roanoke.com/269850
>
>
>
>
>
&g====================
>
>
>
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w
ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.homebuilthe
lp.com">www.homebuilthelp.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?C
ommander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="h
ttp://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.
matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Li
sthttp://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE
Date: Dec 19, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI KIDS..Those of you who are a registered Commander owner should soon rec
eived your copy of Twin&Turbine magazine. On the cover is a great photo
of Chris Haag's ill fated Shrike There is a well written several page st
ory inside. You will remember that it was tragically miss-fueled in Canad
a and a total loss. I was standing next to this wonderful airplane only
days before it was lost. No one was injured, but is is so sad to be remi
nded of the loss. Chris poured his soul (and countless $$$) into this dre
am Commander. jb ( PS Don't you just love the repaint in the original
Shrike scheme!!!) jb
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
From: "Cate Chagnot" <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Date: Dec 21, 2010
Barry,
There's a Commander 680 sitting at the Frederick airport in Maryland that's been
parked on the ramp for a number of years and hasn't moved. Next time I'm over
there I'll try and get photos for you..
Cheers,
Cate N4278S (680E)
--------
Cate
N4278S 680E
Skywagon N180PK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324034#324034
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
Date: Dec 21, 2010
Hi Cate!
It's possibly N790K, which is s/n 680-393-73 and has been with the Frederick
Community College since May 2000.
There's a photo of it on myaviation.net, but a better one will always be
most welcome!
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cate Chagnot
Sent: 21 December 2010 16:19
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
-->
Barry,
There's a Commander 680 sitting at the Frederick airport in Maryland that's
been parked on the ramp for a number of years and hasn't moved. Next time
I'm over there I'll try and get photos for you..
Cheers,
Cate N4278S (680E)
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
From: "Cate Chagnot" <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Date: Dec 21, 2010
Hi Barry,
Yep, I think that's it. It just sits there though I did think I saw someone doing
something to it last year. I will try and get some shots next spring when I'm
over there again.
I had a bad run with a fanatical FAA inspector there last summer and he grounded
my 680E, N4278S basically for a ratty paint job and bad de-ice boots after he
tore the patches off the boots. It was touch and go getting a ferry permit.
Luckily he was off the day I got one issued by another inspector. It's now got
new boots and Queen Air props (courtesy Jim Metzger) and is flying again. When
the props didn't pass I was worried because at $30,000 per prop she would have
been grounded...
Cate
--------
Cate
N4278S 680E
Skywagon N180PK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324042#324042
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
Date: Dec 21, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI CATE,Good to have you back!! Merry Christmas!! Hope the Commander is
working well. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Cate Chagnot <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 8:58 am
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
.com>
Hi Barry,
Yep, I think that's it. It just sits there though I did think I saw someon
e
oing something to it last year. I will try and get some shots next spring
when
'm over there again.
had a bad run with a fanatical FAA inspector there last summer and he gro
unded
y 680E, N4278S basically for a ratty paint job and bad de-ice boots after
he
ore the patches off the boots. It was touch and go getting a ferry permit.
uckily he was off the day I got one issued by another inspector. It's now
got
ew boots and Queen Air props (courtesy Jim Metzger) and is flying again.
When
he props didn't pass I was worried because at $30,000 per prop she would
have
een grounded...
Cate
--------
ate
N4278S 680E
kywagon N180PK
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324042#324042
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
From: "Cate Chagnot" <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Date: Dec 21, 2010
Hi Jim,
It's good to be back. It was challenging (to say the least at times) but fun flying
that Air ambulance into the back country of Guyana and HOT!
Thanks for all your help in getting my 680E flying again. I flew it 10 days ago
from Tiffin to Dayton (MGY, but not Commander Aero) for it's annual. Flew great.
Merry Christmas and a happy New year to you and Sue!
Cate
--------
Cate
N4278S 680E
Skywagon N180PK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324055#324055
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
Date: Dec 21, 2010
I thought I heard a radio news-flash that a "10-seater Aero Commander" was
lost in Palm Springs. Only the pilot was on board and apparently flew into
terra firma. I haven't heard anything yet or it could also be that I wasn't
paying attention.
Does anyone know of such an event?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
HI CATE,Good to have you back!! Merry Christmas!! Hope the Commander is
working well. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Cate Chagnot <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 8:58 am
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
Hi Barry,
Yep, I think that's it. It just sits there though I did think I saw someone
doing something to it last year. I will try and get some shots next spring
when
I'm over there again.
I had a bad run with a fanatical FAA inspector there last summer and he
grounded
my 680E, N4278S basically for a ratty paint job and bad de-ice boots after
he
tore the patches off the boots. It was touch and go getting a ferry permit.
Luckily he was off the day I got one issued by another inspector. It's now
got
new boots and Queen Air props (courtesy Jim Metzger) and is flying again.
When
the props didn't pass I was worried because at $30,000 per prop she would
have
been grounded...
Cate
--------
Cate
N4278S 680E
Skywagon N180PK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324042#324042
===================================
=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
===================================
tp://forums.matronics.com
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
Date: Dec 21, 2010
Hi Nico,
Bert Berry sent me a heads-up on this a few hours ago.
The Commander that crashed on December 20th was N316KW, 680FL s/n 1753-146.
According the FAA's preliminary accident data website
(www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/), it went
down near Perris, CA.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: 21 December 2010 19:15
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
I thought I heard a radio news-flash that a "10-seater Aero Commander" was
lost in Palm Springs. Only the pilot was on board and apparently flew into
terra firma. I haven't heard anything yet or it could also be that I wasn't
paying attention.
Does anyone know of such an event?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
HI CATE,Good to have you back!! Merry Christmas!! Hope the Commander is
working well. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Cate Chagnot <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 8:58 am
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
Hi Barry,
Yep, I think that's it. It just sits there though I did think I saw someone
doing something to it last year. I will try and get some shots next spring
when
I'm over there again.
I had a bad run with a fanatical FAA inspector there last summer and he
grounded
my 680E, N4278S basically for a ratty paint job and bad de-ice boots after
he
tore the patches off the boots. It was touch and go getting a ferry permit.
Luckily he was off the day I got one issued by another inspector. It's now
got
new boots and Queen Air props (courtesy Jim Metzger) and is flying again.
When
the props didn't pass I was worried because at $30,000 per prop she would
have
been grounded...
Cate
--------
Cate
N4278S 680E
Skywagon N180PK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324042#324042
=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
Date: Dec 21, 2010
Thanks, Barry. So sad.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
Hi Nico,
Bert Berry sent me a heads-up on this a few hours ago.
The Commander that crashed on December 20th was N316KW, 680FL s/n 1753-146.
According the FAA's preliminary accident data website
(www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/), it went
down near Perris, CA.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: 21 December 2010 19:15
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
I thought I heard a radio news-flash that a "10-seater Aero Commander" was
lost in Palm Springs. Only the pilot was on board and apparently flew into
terra firma. I haven't heard anything yet or it could also be that I wasn't
paying attention.
Does anyone know of such an event?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
HI CATE,Good to have you back!! Merry Christmas!! Hope the Commander is
working well. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Cate Chagnot <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 8:58 am
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
Hi Barry,
Yep, I think that's it. It just sits there though I did think I saw someone
doing something to it last year. I will try and get some shots next spring
when
I'm over there again.
I had a bad run with a fanatical FAA inspector there last summer and he
grounded
my 680E, N4278S basically for a ratty paint job and bad de-ice boots after
he
tore the patches off the boots. It was touch and go getting a ferry permit.
Luckily he was off the day I got one issued by another inspector. It's now
got
new boots and Queen Air props (courtesy Jim Metzger) and is flying again.
When
the props didn't pass I was worried because at $30,000 per prop she would
have
been grounded...
Cate
--------
Cate
N4278S 680E
Skywagon N180PK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324042#324042
=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
Date: Dec 21, 2010
Updated the Facebook page.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=149917865059907
<http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=149917865059907&set=a.14578378547331
5.36934.144424762275884> &set=a.145783785473315.36934.144424762275884
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
Thanks, Barry. So sad.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
Hi Nico,
Bert Berry sent me a heads-up on this a few hours ago.
The Commander that crashed on December 20th was N316KW, 680FL s/n 1753-146.
According the FAA's preliminary accident data website
(www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/), it went
down near Perris, CA.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: 21 December 2010 19:15
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
I thought I heard a radio news-flash that a "10-seater Aero Commander" was
lost in Palm Springs. Only the pilot was on board and apparently flew into
terra firma. I haven't heard anything yet or it could also be that I wasn't
paying attention.
Does anyone know of such an event?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
HI CATE,Good to have you back!! Merry Christmas!! Hope the Commander is
working well. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Cate Chagnot <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 8:58 am
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR
Hi Barry,
Yep, I think that's it. It just sits there though I did think I saw someone
doing something to it last year. I will try and get some shots next spring
when
I'm over there again.
I had a bad run with a fanatical FAA inspector there last summer and he
grounded
my 680E, N4278S basically for a ratty paint job and bad de-ice boots after
he
tore the patches off the boots. It was touch and go getting a ferry permit.
Luckily he was off the day I got one issued by another inspector. It's now
got
new boots and Queen Air props (courtesy Jim Metzger) and is flying again.
When
the props didn't pass I was worried because at $30,000 per prop she would
have
been grounded...
Cate
--------
Cate
N4278S 680E
Skywagon N180PK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324042#324042
=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2010
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Commander lost in Palm Springs?
Can I get the ownership chain on that bird please?=0A=0ACraig=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: cybersuperstore <nico@cybersupe
rstore.com>=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, December 21, 20
10 1:03:04 PM=0ASubject: RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs
?=0A=0A =0AThanks, Barry. So sad. =0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0A From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-comma
nder-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman=0ASent: Tuesday
, December 21, 2010 12:30 PM=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject:
RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs?=0A=0A=0AHi Nico,=0A
=0ABert Berry sent me a heads-up on this a few hours ago.=0AThe Commander
that crashed on December 20th was N316KW, 680FL s/n 1753-146.=0AAccording
the FAA=99s preliminary accident data website =0A(www.faa.gov/data_
research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/), it went down =0Anear Perris
, CA.=0A =0ABest Regards,=0ABarry=0A =0AFrom:owner-commander-list-server@m
atronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Beha
lf Of cybersuperstore=0ASent: 21 December 2010 19:15=0ATo: commander-list@m
atronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Commander-List: Commander lost in Palm Springs
?=0A =0AI thought I heard a radio news-flash that a "10-seater Aero Comman
der" was lost =0Ain Palm Springs. Only the pilot was on board and apparent
ly flew into terra =0Afirma. I haven't heard anything yet or it could also
be that I wasn't paying =0Aattention. =0A=0A =0ADoes anyone know of such
an event?=0A =0ANico=0A =0A =0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A
=0AFrom:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-command
er-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com=0ASent: Tuesday
, December 21, 2010 10:25 AM=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject:
Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR=0AHI CATE,Good to have y
ou back!! Merry Christmas!! Hope the Commander is =0Aworking well. jb
=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Cate Chagnot <cchagnot@ultimatea
ir.com>=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, Dec 21, 2010 8:58
am=0ASubject: Commander-List: Re: Commander Spotting KGRR=0A--> Commander-
List message posted by: "Cate Chagnot" =0A =0AHi
Barry,=0A =0AYep, I think that's it. It just sits there though I did thin
k I saw someone =0Adoing something to it last year. I will try and get some
shots next spring when =0AI'm over there again. =0AI had a bad run with a
fanatical FAA inspector there last summer and he grounded =0A=0Amy 680E, N4
278S basically for a ratty paint job and bad de-ice boots after he =0Atore
the patches off the boots. It was touch and go getting a ferry permit. =0AL
uckily he was off the day I got one issued by another inspector. It's now g
ot =0Anew boots and Queen Air props (courtesy Jim Metzger) and is flying ag
ain. When =0Athe props didn't pass I was worried because at $30,000 per pro
p she would have =0Abeen grounded...=0A =0ACate=0A =0A--------=0ACate=0A
=0AN4278S 680E=0ASkywagon N180PK=0A =0A =0A =0A =0ARead this topic onl
ine here:=0A =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324042#32404
2=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com=0Am/"
target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com=0A=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com=0A
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0At" target=_blank>http://ww
w.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A
=0A =0A =0A =0A =0Ahref="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectri
c.com=0Ahref="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com=0Ahref
="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com=0Ahref="http://ww
w.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref=%22http:/www
.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List%22%3ehttp://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?Commander-List=0A=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums
.matronics.com=0A =0A =0Awww.aeroelectric.com=0Awww.buildersbooks.com=0Aw
ww.homebuilthelp.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0Ahttp://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A hre
f="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com> =0Ahref="http://w
ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com> =0Ahref="http://www.homebuil
thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com> =0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contr
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigat
or?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref=
===== =0A=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Bichier <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Subject: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer)
Date: Dec 22, 2010
Have you guys heard of this one?
a beautiful 560E that use to belong to Delaware Police, sold and
crashed...
Here is NTSB's report:
NTSB Identification: ERA10LA457
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, August 31, 2010 in Jacksonville, FL
Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 560E, registration: N175SP
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
report has been completed.
On August 31, 2010, about 0815 eastern daylight time, an Aero
Commander 560E, N175SP (previously registered as N6SP), was
substantially damaged during a forced landing, after experiencing a
loss of engine power during the initial climb after takeoff from the
Herlong Airport (HEG), Jacksonville, Florida. The certificated private
pilot and a certificated flight instructor (CFI) were not injured.
Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan had been
filed for the flight destined for Craig Municipal Airport (CRG), also
located in Jacksonville, Florida. The personal flight was conducted
under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.
During an interview, the pilot reported that he purchased the airplane
on June 19, 2010. The airplane was previously owned by the Delaware
State Police, and had not been flown for over 1 year. On July 23,
2010, after maintenance which included an annual inspection, the pilot
took delivery of the airplane in Delaware, and flew it to HEG.
The purpose of the accident flight was to fly to CRG for avionics
related maintenance. The pilot performed a preflight inspection, which
included checking the fuel tanks for water contamination, prior to the
flight. The pilot and CFI, who the pilot considered a safety pilot per
insurance requirements, departed without incident. The airplane was in
a climb between 1,500 and 2,000 feet, when the left engine quit. The
pilot successfully feathered the engine; however, shortly thereafter,
the right engine began to "sputter" and also quit. The pilot was
unable to restore engine power in either engine, and performed a
forced landing to Interstate I-10. During the landing, the airplane
struck trees, which resulted in substantial damage to both wings and
the fuselage.
The CFI reported that he assumed control of the airplane immediately
after the left engine failed. He secured the left engine and
subsequently maneuvered the airplane for the forced landing. While on
approach, he observed power lines which necessitated lowering the
airplane's nose, and increased the touchdown airspeed. During the
landing roll, the airplane's right tire departed the paved surface,
and the airplane veered into trees, toward a fence.
The airplane was subsequently removed from the accident site for
further examination to be conducted under the supervision of a Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, at a later date.
The pilot further reported that the airplane had been operated for
about 20 hours since it was purchased, and was last flown on August
11, 2010. At that time, fuel was added to the airplane which brought
the total fuel on board to approximately 80 gallons in the main fuel
tanks, and 20 gallons in the auxiliary fuel tanks.
The pilot reported 250 hours of total flight experience, which
included about 90 hours in multiengine airplanes. His most recent
application for an FAA third-class medical certificate was issued on
September 15, 2009.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past
summer)
Date: Dec 22, 2010
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Very likely fuel contamination but we can't rule out pilot error. Were
the fuel selectors set to the outboard tanks?
A 680E crashed in Lakeland, FL, about 13 or 14 years ago because of that
-- fuel selectors set on the outboard tanks for take-off. On top of that
, the pilot was unfamiliar with the Aero Commander and had just finished
up instrument training in a Beech Dutchess which added to the mishandling
/ confusion of the aircraft's systems and operating procedures.
How experienced in make/model and Aero Commanders, in general were the pil
ot and the safety pilot? That's all part of the mix.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
FAASTeam
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Bichier <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Sent: Wed, Dec 22, 2010 11:15 am
Subject: Commander-List: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past
summer)
Have you guys heard of this one?
a beautiful 560E that use to belong to Delaware Police, sold and crashed..
.
Here is NTSB's report:
NTSB Identification: ERA10LA457
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, August 31, 2010 in Jacksonville, FL
Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 560E, registration: N175SP
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors
. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has be
en completed.
On August 31, 2010, about 0815 eastern daylight time, an Aero Commander 56
0E, N175SP (previously registered as N6SP), was substantially damaged duri
ng a forced landing, after experiencing a loss of engine power during the
initial climb after takeoff from the Herlong Airport (HEG), Jacksonville,
Florida. The certificated private pilot and a certificated flight instruc
tor (CFI) were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and
no flight plan had been filed for the flight destined for Craig Municipal
Airport (CRG), also located in Jacksonville, Florida. The personal flight
was conducted under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part
91.
During an interview, the pilot reported that he purchased the airplane on
June 19, 2010. The airplane was previously owned by the Delaware State Po
lice, and had not been flown for over 1 year. On July 23, 2010, after main
tenance which included an annual inspection, the pilot took delivery of th
e airplane in Delaware, and flew it to HEG.
The purpose of the accident flight was to fly to CRG for avionics related
maintenance. The pilot performed a preflight inspection, which included
checking the fuel tanks for water contamination, prior to the flight. The
pilot and CFI, who the pilot considered a safety pilot per insurance requ
irements, departed without incident. The airplane was in a climb between
1,500 and 2,000 feet, when the left engine quit. The pilot successfully
feathered the engine; however, shortly thereafter, the right engine began
to "sputter" and also quit. The pilot was unable to restore engine power
in either engine, and performed a forced landing to Interstate I-10. Duri
ng the landing, the airplane struck trees, which resulted in substantial
damage to both wings and the fuselage.
The CFI reported that he assumed control of the airplane immediately after
the left engine failed. He secured the left engine and subsequently maneu
vered the airplane for the forced landing. While on approach, he observed
power lines which necessitated lowering the airplane's nose, and increase
d the touchdown airspeed. During the landing roll, the airplane's right ti
re departed the paved surface, and the airplane veered into trees, toward
a fence.
The airplane was subsequently removed from the accident site for further
examination to be conducted under the supervision of a Federal Aviation
Administration (FAA) inspector, at a later date.
The pilot further reported that the airplane had been operated for about
20 hours since it was purchased, and was last flown on August 11, 2010.
At that time, fuel was added to the airplane which brought the total fuel
on board to approximately 80 gallons in the main fuel tanks, and 20 gallo
ns in the auxiliary fuel tanks.
The pilot reported 250 hours of total flight experience, which included ab
out 90 hours in multiengine airplanes. His most recent application for an
FAA third-class medical certificate was issued on September 15, 2009.
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer)
From: "Cate Chagnot" <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Date: Dec 22, 2010
Makes me wonder who was actually PIC, the pilot/owner or the CFI? It seems that
the CFI took over when the left engine quit and then dealt with the right engine
failure and landing. I'm sure both were working hard at doing everything they
could but who gets the credit for the landing?
Cate
N4278S
--------
Cate
N4278S 680E
Skywagon N180PK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324152#324152
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2010
Subject: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander
560
From: Marcos Della <mdella(at)gmail.com>
Hi folks, I've been looking for this for awhile just to get an idea of what
the original wiring in my commander was supposed to look like. Probably
40-50% of the wiring has been "upgraded/replaced/modified" however much of
the older braided wiring is still in place and connecting to things that few
of the A/Ps around here can readily identify. At least for function we can
figure much out, but not necessary where the wires go from there. Since
this is a restoration project, I'm not in any time rush, but would like to
get a handle on much of the wiring (and the removal of much of the older
unused wiring) while the plane is in pieces...
Marcos
P.S. This is for an Aero Commander 560 (GO-480 engines).
________________________________________________________________________________
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past
summer)
Date: Dec 22, 2010
If you check the Jacksonville News on that day, they had a number of color pictures
posted.
>From my iPhone 4!
On Dec 22, 2010, at 12:54 PM, "Cate Chagnot" wrote:
>
> Makes me wonder who was actually PIC, the pilot/owner or the CFI? It seems that
the CFI took over when the left engine quit and then dealt with the right engine
failure and landing. I'm sure both were working hard at doing everything
they could but who gets the credit for the landing?
>
> Cate
> N4278S
>
> --------
> Cate
>
> N4278S 680E
> Skywagon N180PK
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324152#324152
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2010
From: Brock Lorber <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com>
Subject: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past
summer)
I can't believe the CFI would admit to taking the controls. The only
benefit to being a CFI is to log PIC/approaches/landings without
officially doing a darn thing but enjoying the scenery. :-)
Emergency expectations are part of my portion of the pre-flight brief:
"You are the pilot-in-command. In case of emergency, you will remain
the pilot-in-command. At no time will I take the controls unless you
request it, and then we will do a positive exchange of controls. You
say, 'you have the controls.' I will respond, 'I have the controls,'
and shake the stick."
Of course, I'm always available to assist and/or nudge in the right
direction. ;-)
Cate Chagnot wrote:
>
> Makes me wonder who was actually PIC, the pilot/owner or the CFI? It seems that
the CFI took over when the left engine quit and then dealt with the right engine
failure and landing. I'm sure both were working hard at doing everything
they could but who gets the credit for the landing?
>
> Cate
> N4278S
>
> --------
> Cate
>
> N4278S 680E
> Skywagon N180PK
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324152#324152
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject:
Date: Dec 22, 2010
Does any one have or know where I can find a copy of the FAA vs. Mr. Claus.
It is where the FAA inspector is going to give Santa a big violation. He can
not find where he has a medical much less an IFR ticket and he is sure that
the spar in the slay is not strong enough to carry all those toys. He knows
that one red light is not legal for night and he also knows that flying one
night a year does not meet the rules for IFR. It has a lot more.
Jim
N444BD
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Date: Dec 22, 2010
From: "Steele, Bob" <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com>
Not the one you are looking for - but still funny!
Santa and the FAA
> Santa Claus, like all pilots, gets regular visits from
> the Federal Aviation Administration, and it was shortly before
Christmas
> when the FAA examiner arrived.
> In preparation, Santa had the elves wash the sled and
> bathe all the reindeer. Santa got out his logbook and made sure all
his
> paperwork was in order.
> The examiner walked slowly around the sled. He checked
> the reindeer harnesses, the landing gear, and Rudolph's nose. He
> painstakingly reviewed Santa's weight and balance calculations for the
> sled's enormous payload.
> Finally, they were ready for the checkride. Santa got in
> and fastened his seatbelt and shoulder harness, and checked the
compass.
> Then the examiner hopped in carrying, to Santa's surprise, a shotgun.
> "What's that for?" asked Santa incredulously.
> The examiner winked and said, "I'm not supposed to tell
> you this, but you're gonna lose an engine on takeoff."
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Addington
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:46 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
Does any one have or know where I can find a copy of the FAA vs. Mr.
Claus.
It is where the FAA inspector is going to give Santa a big violation. He
can
not find where he has a medical much less an IFR ticket and he is sure
that
the spar in the slay is not strong enough to carry all those toys. He
knows
that one red light is not legal for night and he also knows that flying
one
night a year does not meet the rules for IFR. It has a lot more.
Jim
N444BD
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: mander-List:
Date: Dec 22, 2010
There was another one on the FAA and the STC pencil.
Jim
N444BD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Bob
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
Not the one you are looking for - but still funny!
Santa and the FAA
> Santa Claus, like all pilots, gets regular visits from
> the Federal Aviation Administration, and it was shortly before
Christmas
> when the FAA examiner arrived.
> In preparation, Santa had the elves wash the sled and
> bathe all the reindeer. Santa got out his logbook and made sure all
his
> paperwork was in order.
> The examiner walked slowly around the sled. He checked
> the reindeer harnesses, the landing gear, and Rudolph's nose. He
> painstakingly reviewed Santa's weight and balance calculations for the
> sled's enormous payload.
> Finally, they were ready for the checkride. Santa got in
> and fastened his seatbelt and shoulder harness, and checked the
compass.
> Then the examiner hopped in carrying, to Santa's surprise, a shotgun.
> "What's that for?" asked Santa incredulously.
> The examiner winked and said, "I'm not supposed to tell
> you this, but you're gonna lose an engine on takeoff."
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Addington
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:46 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
Does any one have or know where I can find a copy of the FAA vs. Mr.
Claus.
It is where the FAA inspector is going to give Santa a big violation. He
can
not find where he has a medical much less an IFR ticket and he is sure
that
the spar in the slay is not strong enough to carry all those toys. He
knows
that one red light is not legal for night and he also knows that flying
one
night a year does not meet the rules for IFR. It has a lot more.
Jim
N444BD
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander
560
Date: Dec 22, 2010
Hi Marcos,
Good luck on this one. Several years ago we removed 42 pounds of unused
wire and cannon plugs in my 680Fp. The problem with using the original
wiring diagram is that the maintenance manual that you can get probably
does not relate to your particular aircraft. We had to literally trace
down each wire. Be careful, as some wiring will effect more than one
instrument (for instance wiring from an old auto pilot that was removed
twenty years ago may effect the elevator trim tab and HIS when the
wiring from it is removed).
Moe
From: Marcos Della
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:41 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero
Commander 560
Hi folks, I've been looking for this for awhile just to get an idea of
what the original wiring in my commander was supposed to look like.
Probably 40-50% of the wiring has been "upgraded/replaced/modified"
however much of the older braided wiring is still in place and
connecting to things that few of the A/Ps around here can readily
identify. At least for function we can figure much out, but not
necessary where the wires go from there. Since this is a restoration
project, I'm not in any time rush, but would like to get a handle on
much of the wiring (and the removal of much of the older unused wiring)
while the plane is in pieces...
Marcos
P.S. This is for an Aero Commander 560 (GO-480 engines).
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2010
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander
560
and then what wiring replaces it?=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Jack B. Mills <moe-ros
spistons(at)hotmail.com>=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, Decem
ber 22, 2010 10:04:28 PM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: Looking for a wirin
g diagram/manual for an Aero =0ACommander 560=0A=0A=0AHi Marcos,=0A-=0AGo
od luck on this one.- Several years ago we removed 42 pounds of unused wi
re =0Aand cannon plugs in my 680Fp.- The problem with using the original
wiring =0Adiagram is that the maintenance manual that you can get probably
does not relate =0Ato your particular aircraft.- We had to literally trac
e down each wire.- Be =0Acareful, as some wiring will effect more than on
e instrument (for instance =0Awiring from an old auto pilot that was remove
d twenty years ago may effect the =0Aelevator trim tab and HIS when the wir
ing from it is removed).=0A-=0AMoe=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Marcos Della =0ASent:
Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:41 PM=0ATo: commander-list =0ASubject: Comm
ander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero =0ACommander 56
0=0AHi folks, I've been looking for this for awhile just to get an idea of
what the =0Aoriginal wiring in my commander was supposed to look like.- P
robably 40-50% of =0Athe wiring has been "upgraded/replaced/modified" howev
er much of the older =0Abraided wiring is still in place and connecting to
things that few of the A/Ps =0Aaround here can readily identify.- At leas
t for function we can figure much out, =0Abut not necessary where the wires
go from there.- Since this is a restoration =0Aproject, I'm not in any t
ime rush, but would like to get a handle on much of the =0Awiring (and the
removal of much of the older unused wiring) while the plane is =0Ain pieces
...=0A=0AMarcos=0A=0AP.S. This is for an Aero Commander 560 (GO-480 engines
).=0A=0A href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com =0Ahref
="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com =0Ahref="http://w
ww.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com =0Ahref="http://www.matronics
.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-L
isthref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A =0A
-========================
======= =0A=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Thompson" <richard(at)flycorp.com.au>
Subject: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander
560
Date: Dec 23, 2010
Marcos,
The chances of your wiring resembling whats in the manual is small.
I would suggest you get hold of Geoffrey Pence at Twin Commander and see if
he can supply the original diagrams for your plane. They might charge you
for them but its well worth it.
Cheers
Richard
To all those on this list, Have a very Merry Christmas and New Year.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcos Della
Sent: Thursday, 23 December 2010 8:41 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero
Commander 560
Hi folks, I've been looking for this for awhile just to get an idea of what
the original wiring in my commander was supposed to look like. Probably
40-50% of the wiring has been "upgraded/replaced/modified" however much of
the older braided wiring is still in place and connecting to things that few
of the A/Ps around here can readily identify. At least for function we can
figure much out, but not necessary where the wires go from there. Since
this is a restoration project, I'm not in any time rush, but would like to
get a handle on much of the wiring (and the removal of much of the older
unused wiring) while the plane is in pieces...
Marcos
P.S. This is for an Aero Commander 560 (GO-480 engines).
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander
560
Date: Dec 23, 2010
Hello Marcos,
I cannot help with your wiring diagram problem, but Richard's suggestion of
contacting Twin Commander is your best option.
Geoffrey Pence or Bill Ball (the Engineering Librarian) should be able to
help, although Bill is not at work until early in January, as he's been in
hospital.
Which Commander are you restoring?
Certainly good news that one of the early examples is being cared for!
Best Regards,
Barry Collman
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcos Della
Sent: 22 December 2010 21:41
Subject: Commander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero
Commander 560
Hi folks, I've been looking for this for awhile just to get an idea of what
the original wiring in my commander was supposed to look like. Probably
40-50% of the wiring has been "upgraded/replaced/modified" however much of
the older braided wiring is still in place and connecting to things that few
of the A/Ps around here can readily identify. At least for function we can
figure much out, but not necessary where the wires go from there. Since
this is a restoration project, I'm not in any time rush, but would like to
get a handle on much of the wiring (and the removal of much of the older
unused wiring) while the plane is in pieces...
Marcos
P.S. This is for an Aero Commander 560 (GO-480 engines).
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "BillLeff1(at)aol.com" <BillLeff1(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2010
Subject:
Yea, but he will help you restart it: Right? Sorry guys, inside joke.
Merry Christmas!
Bill Leff
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: "Steele, Bob" <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 22, 2010 23:51:37 GMT+00:00
Subject: RE: Commander-List:
Not the one you are looking for - but still funny!
Santa and the FAA
> Santa Claus, like all pilots, gets regular visits from
> the Federal Aviation Administration, and it was shortly before
Christmas
> when the FAA examiner arrived.
> In preparation, Santa had the elves wash the sled and
> bathe all the reindeer. Santa got out his logbook and made sure all
his
> paperwork was in order.
> The examiner walked slowly around the sled. He checked
> the reindeer harnesses, the landing gear, and Rudolph's nose. He
> painstakingly reviewed Santa's weight and balance calculations for the
> sled's enormous payload.
> Finally, they were ready for the checkride. Santa got in
> and fastened his seatbelt and shoulder harness, and checked the
compass.
> Then the examiner hopped in carrying, to Santa's surprise, a shotgun.
> "What's that for?" asked Santa incredulously.
> The examiner winked and said, "I'm not supposed to tell
> you this, but you're gonna lose an engine on takeoff."
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Addington
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:46 PM
Subject: Commander-List:
Does any one have or know where I can find a copy of the FAA vs. Mr.
Claus.
It is where the FAA inspector is going to give Santa a big violation. He
can
not find where he has a medical much less an IFR ticket and he is sure
that
the spar in the slay is not strong enough to carry all those toys. He
knows
that one red light is not legal for night and he also knows that flying
one
night a year does not meet the rules for IFR. It has a lot more.
Jim
N444BD
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander
560
Date: Dec 23, 2010
Hello All,
John Towner is unable to reply to postings on the chatlist, so I've copied
input from him as follows:
"I have been reading TCFG comments about wiring diagrams for AC's. My
computer will not let me reply to TCFG. Just my 2 cents worth.
When we have purchased a Commander to put into service (cargo) we have
removed all avionics and wiring, installed new instrument panels etc.,
removing about 350 lbs of weight and installed new King silver crown
avionics and antennas weighting about 55 lbs total giving us about 300 lbs
more useful load.
I can tell many stories about flying with the old avionics, not being able
to talk to anyone and needing to obtain light gun signals to land.
OH! Merry Christmas and have a great holiday season."
Best Regards,
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE
Date: Dec 23, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
-----Original Message-----
From: John Towner <johntowner(at)centralairsouthwest.com>
Cc: Andrew Towner
Sent: Sun, Dec 19, 2010 11:57 am
Subject: [Fwd: Commander-List: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE]
Hi Jim,
Just read your TCFG note on misfueling. The stories are endless and the
fuel caps we lost prior to 1985 are pretty scary. I think I told you in
1985 we changed to a different fuel cap that has really saved the day for
us many times since. I think we have been misfueled over the years 8-10
times and caught it every time before takeoff except once and our pilot
dead sticked it back (very lucky).
Give Sue a hug and have a great Christmas and holiday season.
YOUR old FRIEND,
JT
Attached Message
From:
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
To:
commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject:
Commander-List: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE
Date:
HI KIDS..Those of you who are a registered Commander owner should soon rec
eived your copy of Twin&Turbine magazine. On the cover is a great photo
of Chris Haag's ill fated Shrike There is a well written several page st
ory inside. You will remember that it was tragically miss-fueled in Canad
a and a total loss. I was standing next to this wonderful airplane only
days before it was lost. No one was injured, but is is so sad to be remi
nded of the loss. Chris poured his soul (and countless $$$) into this dre
am Commander. jb ( PS Don't you just love the repaint in the original
Shrike scheme!!!) jb
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Juck Yeager
Date: Dec 25, 2010
I thought you might appreciate this...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=36932
<http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=36932&id=144424762275884&saved#!/phot
o.php?fbid=150800758304951&set=a.150800751638285.38698.144424762275884>
&id=144424762275884&saved#!/photo.php?fbid=150800758304951&set=a.15080075163
8285.38698.144424762275884
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: A CHRISTMAS WISH
Date: Dec 25, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI KIDS.....Merry CHRISTmas!!!!!!!!!!!! I wanted to take a moment and sha
re with all of you that Christmas is really about a risen savior, your sav
ior! God so loved the world, that he came up with a plan to send his Son,
Jesus, so you and I could have a relationship with the God of the univers
e and gain the gift of eternal life. Wow, think about it, we can communica
te directly with God because of Christ. Don't believe it?? Maybe you thi
nk God will just make room for everyone in the end?? Maybe there is no Go
d and we all just go to sleep?? Sorry, but no. There is a God and he lov
es you whether you like it or not. He wants you to come to him through hi
s son, Jesus. You know, the one you just celebrated by buying gifts. But
you don't have to accept God's gift of eternal life, nope it is your choi
ce. It is kinda like the Titanic. Much has been written about the fact
the Titanic was unsinkable and had to few life boats. Less has been penn
ed about the fact that many life boats left less than half full. People
were told that the mighty ship was sinking but they didn't want to listen
. They were not about to leave the warm stateroom or salon. So many boat
s pushed away nearly empty. In the end, when it became obvious that the
mighty ship would soon slip beneath the still, cold Atlantic, the boats
were filled to overflowing. Where are you. Can you see the world around
you sinking?? God sent the world a life boat, Jesus Christ, who's birth
we celibate. So, are you ready to get in or will you wait for the next
boat. Will you make excused like "I cant stand organized religion" (what
ever that is). or "religious people are hypocrites" (Yep, some are), or "I
f God really loves his people, he will make room for all good people" (but
how do you define "good"). I challenge you to get in the boat this Chri
stmas season. Learn about God and his plan. You just celebrated the birt
h of his son, find out why. Merry Christmas to all Commander lovers!! Ji
m Metzger Director, Twin Commander Flight Group
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Addington" <jtaddington(at)verizon.net>
Subject: A CHRISTMAS WISH
Date: Dec 25, 2010
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR to you too and all the other people on
the list.
Jim A
N444BD
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2010 12:03 PM
Subject: Commander-List: A CHRISTMAS WISH
HI KIDS.....Merry CHRISTmas!!!!!!!!!!!! I wanted to take a moment and share
with all of you that Christmas is really about a risen savior, your savior!
God so loved the world, that he came up with a plan to send his Son, Jesus,
so you and I could have a relationship with the God of the universe and gain
the gift of eternal life. Wow, think about it, we can communicate directly
with God because of Christ. Don't believe it?? Maybe you think God will
just make room for everyone in the end?? Maybe there is no God and we all
just go to sleep?? Sorry, but no. There is a God and he loves you whether
you like it or not. He wants you to come to him through his son, Jesus.
You know, the one you just celebrated by buying gifts. But you don't have
to accept God's gift of eternal life, nope it is your choice. It is kinda
like the Titanic. Much has been written about the fact the Titanic was
unsinkable and had to few life boats. Less has been penned about the fact
that many life boats left less than half full. People were told that the
mighty ship was sinking but they didn't want to listen. They were not about
to leave the warm stateroom or salon. So many boats pushed away nearly
empty. In the end, when it became obvious that the mighty ship would soon
slip beneath the still, cold Atlantic, the boats were filled to
overflowing. Where are you. Can you see the world around you sinking??
God sent the world a life boat, Jesus Christ, who's birth we celibate. So,
are you ready to get in or will you wait for the next boat. Will you make
excused like "I cant stand organized religion" (whatever that is). or
"religious people are hypocrites" (Yep, some are), or "If God really loves
his people, he will make room for all good people" (but how do you define
"good"). I challenge you to get in the boat this Christmas season. Learn
about God and his plan. You just celebrated the birth of his son, find out
why. Merry Christmas to all Commander lovers!! Jim Metzger Director, Twin
Commander Flight Group
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
Date: Dec 26, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI KIDS.Sue and I just saw the new movie THE KING'S SPEECH. Great movie
and one of the lead actors, (the hero of the story), looks and even acts
like our own incredible Barry Collman!! For those of you who have not ha
d the honor of meeting Barry, You can get a great idea what he looks like
by seeing this film. Barry is a hero in Commanderland as well!!!! jb
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
Date: Dec 26, 2010
I DON'T THINK SIR BARRY STAMMERS.
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com<mailto:yourtcfg(at)aol.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 8:39 PM
Subject: Commander-List: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
HI KIDS.Sue and I just saw the new movie THE KING'S SPEECH. Great
movie and one of the lead actors, (the hero of the story), looks and
even acts like our own incredible Barry Collman!! For those of you who
have not had the honor of meeting Barry, You can get a great idea what
he looks like by seeing this film. Barry is a hero in Commanderland as
well!!!! jb
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
m/Navigator?Commander-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
Date: Dec 27, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Certainly not!!!!!!
Barry look like the hero, Lionel, the speech therapist. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Sent: Sun, Dec 26, 2010 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
I DON'T THINK SIR BARRY STAMMERS.
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 8:39 PM
Subject: Commander-List: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
HI KIDS.Sue and I just saw the new movie THE KING'S SPEECH. Great movie
and one of the lead actors, (the hero of the story), looks and even acts
like our own incredible Barry Collman!! For those of you who have not ha
d the honor of meeting Barry, You can get a great idea what he looks like
by seeing this film. Barry is a hero in Commanderland as well!!!! jb
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
itle=http://www.buildersbooks.com/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
>www.buildersbooks.com
ref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cti
tle=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
Date: Dec 27, 2010
Hello All,
Well, what can I say?
Elaine agrees that Geoffrey Rush, the actor playing the part of Lionel, does
look like me!
I thought I looked more like Jack Straw, a politician and former Home
Secretary.
As ffffor the ssstammer, nnno way!
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: 27 December 2010 05:21
Subject: Re: Commander-List: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
Certainly not!!!!!!
Barry look like the hero, Lionel, the speech therapist. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Sent: Sun, Dec 26, 2010 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
I DON'T THINK SIR BARRY STAMMERS.
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 8:39 PM
Subject: Commander-List: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
HI KIDS.Sue and I just saw the new movie THE KING'S SPEECH. Great movie and
one of the lead actors, (the hero of the story), looks and even acts like
our own incredible Barry Collman!! For those of you who have not had the
honor of meeting Barry, You can get a great idea what he looks like by
seeing this film. Barry is a hero in Commanderland as well!!!! jb
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Twin & Turbine Article
Date: Dec 27, 2010
Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike
Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of his
upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year
everyone..!!
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Twin & Turbine Article
Date: Dec 27, 2010
Hello Randy,
I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine who
owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published.
I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be
sent to him by the publishers.
Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for 2011.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Dettmer, AIA
Sent: 27 December 2010 14:38
Subject: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike
Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of his
upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year
everyone..!!
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Twin & Turbine Article
Date: Dec 27, 2010
Hi Barry,
Would it be presumptuous to hope that the Commander list's members would get
an advance copy of the book when it goes on sale?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 7:22 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
Hello Randy,
I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine who
owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published.
I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be
sent to him by the publishers.
Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for 2011.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Dettmer, AIA
Sent: 27 December 2010 14:38
Subject: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike
Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of his
upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year
everyone..!!
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405