Commander-Archive.digest.vol-dv

December 27, 2010 - Present



      805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
      
      www.dettmerarchitecture.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Twin & Turbine Article
Date: Dec 27, 2010
Hi Nico, The short answer is I don't know! The book is still some way off and a publication date, and indeed a publisher, are not yet known. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cybersuperstore Sent: 27 December 2010 16:47 Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Hi Barry, Would it be presumptuous to hope that the Commander list's members would get an advance copy of the book when it goes on sale? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 7:22 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Hello Randy, I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine who owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be sent to him by the publishers. Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for 2011. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: 27 December 2010 14:38 Subject: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of his upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year everyone..!! Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" <andrew.bridget(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Twin & Turbine Article
Date: Dec 27, 2010
Hi Barry, If you want some advice about a publisher to avoid, contact me off-list. Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:24 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Hi Nico, The short answer is I don't know! The book is still some way off and a publication date, and indeed a publisher, are not yet known. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cybersuperstore Sent: 27 December 2010 16:47 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Hi Barry, Would it be presumptuous to hope that the Commander list's members would get an advance copy of the book when it goes on sale? Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 7:22 AM To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Hello Randy, I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine who owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be sent to him by the publishers. Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for 2011. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: 27 December 2010 14:38 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of his upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year everyone..!! Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Twin & Turbine Article
Date: Dec 27, 2010
From: "Bichier, Peter" <Peter.Bichier(at)utoledo.edu>
Commanders, Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with me: Follow this link to the e-edition! http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532 Merry Christmas & Happy New Year! Peter Bichier Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo) Department of Environmental Sciences (419) 530-8384 -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry Collman Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Hello Randy, I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine who owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be sent to him by the publishers. Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for 2011. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com Dettmer, AIA Sent: 27 December 2010 14:38 Subject: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of his upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year everyone..!! Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William J Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Date: Dec 28, 2010
Subject: Re: SEE BARRY COLLMAN
Folks, The speech therapist was a little heralded Australian, at long last, thanks to Hollywood, his pioneering work might gain the recognition it has long deserved. Cheers, Bill Hamilton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote: > > Certainly not!!!!!! > Barry look like the hero, Lionel, the speech therapist. jb > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lloyd silverman <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM> > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 26, 2010 6:25 pm > Subject: Re: Commander-List: SEE BARRY COLLMAN > > > > I DON'T THINK SIR BARRY STAMMERS. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 8:39 PM > Subject: Commander-List: SEE BARRY COLLMAN > > > > > > HI KIDS.Sue and I just saw the new movie THE KING'S SPEECH. Great movie > and one of the lead actors, (the hero of the story), looks and even acts > like our own incredible Barry Collman!! For those of you who have not > had the honor of meeting Barry, You can get a great idea what he looks > like by seeing this film. Barry is a hero in Commanderland as well!!!! > jb > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > itle=http://www.buildersbooks.com/ > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > ref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ctit > le=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro > nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > =================================== > - > -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- > -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > - > -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on > -= the Contribution link below to find out more about > -= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided > -= by: > -= > -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com > -= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com > -= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com > - > -= List Contribution Web Site: > - > -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution > - > -= Thank you for your generous support! > - > -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > - > -=========================================================== > -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - > -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse > -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, > -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > -= Photoshare, and much much more: > - > -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > - > -=========================================================== > -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! > - > -= --> http://forums.matronics.com > - > -=========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William J Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Date: Dec 28, 2010
Subject: Re: Twin & Turbine Article
Folks, Read the article, made me more than a little envious. However, there was one quite disturbing "recommendation" in using the JPI to run the engines 20 degrees on the rich side of peak EGT, a recipe for maximizing the chance of detonation. If you want to run rich of peak, make it more like 40+ colder. If the engines had a set of GAMI injectors, you would be able to run on the lean side of peak EGT. Another furphie ( an Australian expression --- a bit like a factual Murphie --- but that ain't where the word came from) is that minimum fuel flow is at peak EGT ---- not if you are running lean of peak, it isn't. I also notice another bit of disinformation in another article about in-flight icing, repeating "old wives tales" about the temperature range for icing, we have known better for the last 40 or so years. Cheers, Bill Hamilton > Bichier, Peter wrote: > > Commanders, > > Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with me: > > Follow this link to the e-edition! > > http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532 > > Merry Christmas & Happy New Year! > > Peter Bichier > Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo) > Department of Environmental Sciences > (419) 530-8384 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry > Collman > Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article > > Hello Randy, > > I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine > who > owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. > > I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be > sent to him by the publishers. > > Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for > 2011. > > Best Regards, > > Barry > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > Dettmer, AIA > Sent: 27 December 2010 14:38 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article > > Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike > Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of > his > upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year > everyone..!! > > Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB > > 680F / N6253X ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 28, 2010
Subject: Re: Twin & Turbine Article
Good Morning Bill, If I may expand on your comments just a bit: We should designate whether we are discussing Fahrenheit or Celsius temperatures. The absolutely hottest and most potentially harmful place to operate any normal conforming piston engine is around fifty to sixty degrees Fahrenheit rich of peak EGT. That is also the point where the engine will develop the most power possible given the amount of air being pumped through it. If it is normally aspirated and being operated above sixty-five to seventy-five percent power, it should be run at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT. Preferably one hundred and fifty. If you want to get the most power possible out of every drop of fuel being used, you must operate on the lean side of peak somewhere between twenty and eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Twenty degrees works for power settings around fifty per cent and eighty lean of peak works well for supercharged engines that can be operated as high as eighty per cent power. The absolute worst place to operate a normally aspirated engine is fifty rich of peak at a power above sixty-five percent. Below sixty-five percent power you can't hurt the engine with the mixture control. All temperatures in Fahrenheit of course! All of the above assumes balanced fuel flow to each of those little engines that are connected to the same crankshaft. Does that agree with your thinking? It IS what I was taught in Ada at the Advanced Pilot Seminars. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: William J Hamilton Folks, Read the article, made me more than a little envious. However, there was one quite disturbing "recommendation" in using the JPI to run the engines 20 degrees on the rich side of peak EGT, a recipe for maximizing the chance of detonation. If you want to run rich of peak, make it more like 40+ colder. If the engines had a set of GAMI injectors, you would be able to run on the lean side of peak EGT. Another furphie ( an Australian expression --- a bit like a factual Murphie --- but that ain't where the word came from) is that minimum fuel flow is at peak EGT ---- not if you are running lean of peak, it isn't. I also notice another bit of disinformation in another article about in-flight icing, repeating "old wives tales" about the temperature range for icing, we have known better for the last 40 or so years. Cheers, Bill Hamilton > Bichier, Peter wrote: > > Commanders, > > Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with me: > > Follow this link to the e-edition! > > http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532 > > Merry Christmas & Happy New Year! > > Peter Bichier > Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo) > Department of Environmental Sciences > (419) 530-8384 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry > Collman > Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article > > Hello Randy, > > I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine > who > owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. > > I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be > sent to him by the publishers. > > Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for > 2011. > > Best Regards, > > Barry > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Twin & Turbine Article
From: Jim Janaitis <jimjan(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2010
Jim Janaitis----------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybersuperstore" [nico(at)cybersuperstore.com] Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Hi Barry, Would it be presumptuous to hope that the Commander list's members would get an advance copy of the book when it goes on sale? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 7:22 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Hello Randy, I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine who owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be sent to him by the publishers. Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for 2011. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA Sent: 27 December 2010 14:38 Subject: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of his upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year everyone..!! Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Twin & Turbine Article
Date: Dec 28, 2010
That resonates with what I was taught. But, that was in Africa, so you never know. :-D _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:27 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article Good Morning Bill, If I may expand on your comments just a bit: We should designate whether we are discussing Fahrenheit or Celsius temperatures. The absolutely hottest and most potentially harmful place to operate any normal conforming piston engine is around fifty to sixty degrees Fahrenheit rich of peak EGT. That is also the point where the engine will develop the most power possible given the amount of air being pumped through it. If it is normally aspirated and being operated above sixty-five to seventy-five percent power, it should be run at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT. Preferably one hundred and fifty. If you want to get the most power possible out of every drop of fuel being used, you must operate on the lean side of peak somewhere between twenty and eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Twenty degrees works for power settings around fifty per cent and eighty lean of peak works well for supercharged engines that can be operated as high as eighty per cent power. The absolute worst place to operate a normally aspirated engine is fifty rich of peak at a power above sixty-five percent. Below sixty-five percent power you can't hurt the engine with the mixture control. All temperatures in Fahrenheit of course! All of the above assumes balanced fuel flow to each of those little engines that are connected to the same crankshaft. Does that agree with your thinking? It IS what I was taught in Ada at the Advanced Pilot Seminars. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes: Folks, Read the article, made me more than a little envious. However, there was one quite disturbing "recommendation" in using the JPI to run the engines 20 degrees on the rich side of peak EGT, a recipe for maximizing the chance of detonation. If you want to run rich of peak, make it more like 40+ colder. If the engines had a set of GAMI injectors, you would be able to run on the lean side of peak EGT. Another furphie ( an Australian expression --- a bit like a factual Murphie --- but that ain't where the word came from) is that minimum fuel flow is at peak EGT ---- not if you are running lean of peak, it isn't. I also notice another bit of disinformation in another article about in-flight icing, repeating "old wives tales" about the temperature range for icing, we have known better for the last 40 or so years. Cheers, Bill Hamilton > Bichier, Peter wrote: > > Commanders, > > Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with me: > > Follow this link to the e-edition! > > http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532 > > Merry Christmas & Happy New Year! > > Peter Bichier > Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo) > Department of Environmental Sciences > (419) 530-8384 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry > Collman > Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article > > Hello Randy, > > I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine > who > owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. > > I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be > sent to him by the publishers. > > Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for > 2011. > > Best Regards, > > Barry > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William J Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Date: Dec 29, 2010
Subject: Re: Twin & Turbine Article
Old Bob, I agree with you entirely. I have been operating IO-540 Lycoming lean of peak since the 1960's, using 6 point temp. probes on all exhaust pipes, the relatively recent availability of calibrated injectors (GAMI) improves the efficiency even further. Factory "recommendations" have varied over the years, but I still have the Lycoming (not Piper) engine handbook for the first IO-540 we ever had, in a 260C Comanche, and the lean of peak recommendations were clear and simple. Quite apart from the fuel savings ( there are equal HP point either side of the peak HP point of the power curve) lean of peak running left us with (then) 1500h TBO cylinders that were so little worn that it was often possible to just deglaze, without boring oversize. As you mentioned, running on the air cold side of peak EGT means the mixture is too week for detonation. Admittedly, we always ran with filter on both the hot and cold air, which helps in dusty conditions. And we always ran high boost, low rpm, essentially full throttle from takeoff, just winding the RPM back on climb, to give the % power required, until TOD. If and when I get the -500A back in the air, it will have GAMI and 6 point EGT on the IO-470s (or maybe 520s, if I can manage it, $$$) and lean of peak will be the order of the day. Cheers, Bill Hamilton > BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > > Good Morning Bill, > > If I may expand on your comments just a bit: > > We should designate whether we are discussing Fahrenheit or Celsius > temperatures. > > The absolutely hottest and most potentially harmful place to operate any > > normal conforming piston engine is around fifty to sixty degrees > Fahrenheit > rich of peak EGT. > > That is also the point where the engine will develop the most power > possible given the amount of air being pumped through it. If it is > normally > aspirated and being operated above sixty-five to seventy-five percent > power, it > should be run at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT. > Preferably one hundred and fifty. > > If you want to get the most power possible out of every drop of fuel > being > used, you must operate on the lean side of peak somewhere between twenty > > and eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Twenty degrees works for power settings > around > fifty per cent and eighty lean of peak works well for supercharged > engines > that can be operated as high as eighty per cent power. The absolute > worst > place to operate a normally aspirated engine is fifty rich of peak at a > > power above sixty-five percent. > > Below sixty-five percent power you can't hurt the engine with the > mixture > control. > > All temperatures in Fahrenheit of course! > > All of the above assumes balanced fuel flow to each of those little > engines > that are connected to the same crankshaft. > > Does that agree with your thinking? > > It IS what I was taught in Ada at the Advanced Pilot Seminars. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > > In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, > wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes: > > --> Commander-List message posted by: William J Hamilton > > > Folks, > Read the article, made me more than a little envious. > However, there was one quite disturbing "recommendation" in using the > JPI > to run the engines 20 degrees on the rich side of peak EGT, a recipe > for > maximizing the chance of detonation. If you want to run rich of peak, > make it > more like 40+ colder. > If the engines had a set of GAMI injectors, you would be able to run on > > the lean side of peak EGT. Another furphie ( an Australian expression > --- a > bit like a factual Murphie --- but that ain't where the word came from) > is > that minimum fuel flow is at peak EGT ---- not if you are running lean > of > peak, it isn't. > I also notice another bit of disinformation in another article about > in-flight icing, repeating "old wives tales" about the temperature > range for > icing, we have known better for the last 40 or so years. > Cheers, > Bill Hamilton > > > > > Bichier, Peter wrote: > > > > Commanders, > > > > Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with > me: > > > > Follow this link to the e-edition! > > > > http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532 > > > > Merry Christmas & Happy New Year! > > > > Peter Bichier > > Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo) > > Department of Environmental Sciences > > (419) 530-8384 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry > > Collman > > Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article > > > > Hello Randy, > > > > I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of > mine > > who > > owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. > > > > I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to > be > > sent to him by the publishers. > > > > Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for > > > 2011. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Barry > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 29, 2010
Subject: Re: Twin & Turbine Article
Good Morning Bill, I know it is very easy to spend someone else's money, but has anyone considered using the IO-550 in lieu of the 520 or 470 in that model Commander? The 550 weighs the same and is physically identical in size to the 520. Continental is charging two to three thousand more for the 550 than the 520, but I will bet it costs them no more to build a 550 than it does to build a 520, or, for that matter, the 470. Is the Sand Cast case required for the Commander? Not sure how Colemill is doing, but they do hold the certificate for an engine Continental builds for them which uses the old sand cast case with the new crank, cylinders, and pistons to provide 550 cubic inches and three hundred horsepower. Not sure if it is available now, but that engine should work in your airplane if no one has an approval for the Permold case. I am now on the third IO-550-B in my Bonanza and could not be happier. I fly higher, faster, and burn less fuel! What is not to like? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/28/2010 8:25:50 P.M. Central Standard Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: William J Hamilton Old Bob, I agree with you entirely. I have been operating IO-540 Lycoming lean of peak since the 1960's, using 6 point temp. probes on all exhaust pipes, the relatively recent availability of calibrated injectors (GAMI) improves the efficiency even further. Factory "recommendations" have varied over the years, but I still have the Lycoming (not Piper) engine handbook for the first IO-540 we ever had, in a 260C Comanche, and the lean of peak recommendations were clear and simple. Quite apart from the fuel savings ( there are equal HP point either side of the peak HP point of the power curve) lean of peak running left us with (then) 1500h TBO cylinders that were so little worn that it was often possible to just deglaze, without boring oversize. As you mentioned, running on the air cold side of peak EGT means the mixture is too week for detonation. Admittedly, we always ran with filter on both the hot and cold air, which helps in dusty conditions. And we always ran high boost, low rpm, essentially full throttle from takeoff, just winding the RPM back on climb, to give the % power required, until TOD. If and when I get the -500A back in the air, it will have GAMI and 6 point EGT on the IO-470s (or maybe 520s, if I can manage it, $$$) and lean of peak will be the order of the day. Cheers, Bill Hamilton > BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > > Good Morning Bill, > > If I may expand on your comments just a bit: > > We should designate whether we are discussing Fahrenheit or Celsius > temperatures. > > The absolutely hottest and most potentially harmful place to operate any > > normal conforming piston engine is around fifty to sixty degrees > Fahrenheit > rich of peak EGT. > > That is also the point where the engine will develop the most power > possible given the amount of air being pumped through it. If it is > normally > aspirated and being operated above sixty-five to seventy-five percent > power, it > should be run at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT. > Preferably one hundred and fifty. > > If you want to get the most power possible out of every drop of fuel > being > used, you must operate on the lean side of peak somewhere between twenty > > and eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Twenty degrees works for power settings > around > fifty per cent and eighty lean of peak works well for supercharged > engines > that can be operated as high as eighty per cent power. The absolute > worst > place to operate a normally aspirated engine is fifty rich of peak at a > > power above sixty-five percent. > > Below sixty-five percent power you can't hurt the engine with the > mixture > control. > > All temperatures in Fahrenheit of course! > > All of the above assumes balanced fuel flow to each of those little > engines > that are connected to the same crankshaft. > > Does that agree with your thinking? > > It IS what I was taught in Ada at the Advanced Pilot Seminars. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > > In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, > wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes: > > --> Commander-List message posted by: William J Hamilton > > > Folks, > Read the article, made me more than a little envious. > However, there was one quite disturbing "recommendation" in using the > JPI > to run the engines 20 degrees on the rich side of peak EGT, a recipe > for > maximizing the chance of detonation. If you want to run rich of peak, > make it > more like 40+ colder. > If the engines had a set of GAMI injectors, you would be able to run on > > the lean side of peak EGT. Another furphie ( an Australian expression > --- a > bit like a factual Murphie --- but that ain't where the word came from) > is > that minimum fuel flow is at peak EGT ---- not if you are running lean > of > peak, it isn't. > I also notice another bit of disinformation in another article about > in-flight icing, repeating "old wives tales" about the temperature > range for > icing, we have known better for the last 40 or so years. > Cheers, > Bill Hamilton > > > > > Bichier, Peter wrote: > > > > Commanders, > > > > Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with > me: > > > > Follow this link to the e-edition! > > > > http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532 > > > > Merry Christmas & Happy New Year! > > > > Peter Bichier > > Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo) > > Department of Environmental Sciences > > (419) 530-8384 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Barry > > Collman > > Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM > > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article > > > > Hello Randy, > > > > I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of > mine > > who > > owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published. > > > > I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to > be > > sent to him by the publishers. > > > > Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for > > > 2011. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Barry > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2010
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE
Hey JB, I didn't realized this gorgeous plane was lost to a mis-fueling accident. Must have been in China and missed an article. What a loss, but glad no one was injured. Sad, but Commander Aero sells the fuel neck restrictors! Craig ________________________________ From: "yourtcfg(at)aol.com" <yourtcfg(at)aol.com> Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 10:05:05 AM Subject: Commander-List: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE HI KIDS..Those of you who are a registered Commander owner should soon received your copy of Twin&Turbine magazine. On the cover is a great photo of Chris Haag's ill fated Shrike There is a well written several page story inside. You will remember that it was tragically miss-fueled in Canada and a total loss. I was standing next to this wonderful airplane only days before it was lost. No one was injured, but is is so sad to be reminded of the loss. Chris poured his soul (and countless $$$) into this dream Commander. jb ( PS Don't you just love the repaint in the original Shrike scheme!!!) jb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE
Date: Dec 29, 2010
Hi Craig, I'll have to check with Chris Haag, but I'm willing to bet that it did have the restrictors. It was re-feuled by hand-pumping from drums at Rankin Inlet airport, Nunavut, Canada during its ferry flight to Switzerland. Although marked as AvGas, one of the two drums is understood to have 'tailings' in it, rather than AvGas, but no doubt the full Report on the accident will reveal all. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: 29 December 2010 21:38 Subject: Re: Commander-List: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE Hey JB, I didn't realized this gorgeous plane was lost to a mis-fueling accident. Must have been in China and missed an article. What a loss, but glad no one was injured. Sad, but Commander Aero sells the fuel neck restrictors! Craig _____ From: "yourtcfg(at)aol.com" <yourtcfg(at)aol.com> Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 10:05:05 AM Subject: Commander-List: CHRIS HAAG SHRIKE HI KIDS..Those of you who are a registered Commander owner should soon received your copy of Twin&Turbine magazine. On the cover is a great photo of Chris Haag's ill fated Shrike There is a well written several page story inside. You will remember that it was tragically miss-fueled in Canada and a total loss. I was standing next to this wonderful airplane only days before it was lost. No one was injured, but is is so sad to be reminded of the loss. Chris poured his soul (and countless $$$) into this dream Commander. jb ( PS Don't you just love the repaint in the original Shrike scheme!!!) jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2010
Hi. New member here. Looks like I've just bought an old 520 from 1953. She's regularly flown, in annual and have her ducks in a row. She's based in MI, but will be flown back to Los Angeles where I live as soon as I can get her insured and inspected. Couple of questions: 1. Who would be able to potentially do a pre-buy inspection on the Port Huron/Detroit area for the 520? 2. If I and my more experienced CFII can't get insurance for the flight back, is there anyone in that area that has a lot of Commander hours (and/or ideally be a CFI) that could help me fly her back to LA VFR? 3. Who would be the best maintenance facility in the So Cal area for an old girl like this? I prefer a repair-and-fix approach rather than a replace-by-new approach to maintenance, if there's a choice. Thanks, A. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325062#325062 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2010
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
stratobee wrote: > Looks like I've just bought an old 520 from 1953. > Hello "A". Congrats on the purchase. If you'd like to contact me off list, I can probably provide some assistance. I know pretty much every nut and bolt in a 520 on a first name basis. Sadly, I recently sent a vast quantity of 520 parts to the dump as I could not find anyone who wanted them. I think I still have a complete set of all documentation (all current originals purchased from tcac). Will need to dig through the book case and make sure though. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Thanks to all that have emailed offering help. I should add that I don't yet have my MEP rating, as I'm only half way though that training. It wasn't planned this way, but then this aircraft came along at the right price and I couldn't resist. But hence why I'd like ideally to get a CFI to help me fly it back, so I can log that time and get better situated for the insurance (as I suspect they'll ask for at least 25 hrs in type). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325083#325083 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: 2011
Date: Dec 31, 2010
A very happy and prosperous 2011 to you all. May the best of 2010 be the worst of 2011. Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Scottmain2003(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Have helpful info for you. contact Scott at Scottmain2003aol.com In a message dated 12/30/2010 8:02:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, adam(at)adamfrisch.com writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" Hi. New member here. Looks like I've just bought an old 520 from 1953. She's regularly flown, in annual and have her ducks in a row. She's based in MI, but will be flown back to Los Angeles where I live as soon as I can get her insured and inspected. Couple of questions: 1. Who would be able to potentially do a pre-buy inspection on the Port Huron/Detroit area for the 520? 2. If I and my more experienced CFII can't get insurance for the flight back, is there anyone in that area that has a lot of Commander hours (and/or ideally be a CFI) that could help me fly her back to LA VFR? 3. Who would be the best maintenance facility in the So Cal area for an old girl like this? I prefer a repair-and-fix approach rather than a replace-by-new approach to maintenance, if there's a choice. Thanks, A. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325062#325062 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
You need to talk to Jim Metzger, President of TCFG. He could help you move the aircraft and you would learn a lot about Twin Commander by just spending a lot of time flying back to CA. Moe Mills had his 680FP taken care of for many years by some folks at Hawthorne Airport. Stop in Albuquerque on your way through. AEG is a good stop for fuel or RON. Tylor Hall tylorhall(at)mac.com First Fueling Systems, Inc. 100 Iron Ave. SE Albuquerque, NM 87102 505-400-8373 Cell 505-247-3001 505-247-3005 FAX www.firstfueling.com On Dec 31, 2010, at 3:19 AM, stratobee wrote: > > Thanks to all that have emailed offering help. > > I should add that I don't yet have my MEP rating, as I'm only half way though that training. It wasn't planned this way, but then this aircraft came along at the right price and I couldn't resist. But hence why I'd like ideally to get a CFI to help me fly it back, so I can log that time and get better situated for the insurance (as I suspect they'll ask for at least 25 hrs in type). > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325083#325083 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Let me be the first to congratulate you, Adam, and welcome you to the group, too. I am not sure where in Socal you would be based, but there are at least two Commanders at Camarillo, one a turboprop. If there's a facility in Socal, someone on the list will know about it or at least steer you in the right direction. Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:56 PM Subject: Commander-List: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Hi. New member here. Looks like I've just bought an old 520 from 1953. She's regularly flown, in annual and have her ducks in a row. She's based in MI, but will be flown back to Los Angeles where I live as soon as I can get her insured and inspected. Couple of questions: 1. Who would be able to potentially do a pre-buy inspection on the Port Huron/Detroit area for the 520? 2. If I and my more experienced CFII can't get insurance for the flight back, is there anyone in that area that has a lot of Commander hours (and/or ideally be a CFI) that could help me fly her back to LA VFR? 3. Who would be the best maintenance facility in the So Cal area for an old girl like this? I prefer a repair-and-fix approach rather than a replace-by-new approach to maintenance, if there's a choice. Thanks, A. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325062#325062 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Hi Adam, Welcome, both to the chatlist and as a Commander owner. I'm guessing that you bought s/n 62, N527P? Let me know and I'll get the history of it to you. Best Regards, Barry Collman Aero Commander historian. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee Sent: 31 December 2010 00:56 Subject: Commander-List: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Hi. New member here. Looks like I've just bought an old 520 from 1953. She's regularly flown, in annual and have her ducks in a row. She's based in MI, but will be flown back to Los Angeles where I live as soon as I can get her insured and inspected. Couple of questions: 1. Who would be able to potentially do a pre-buy inspection on the Port Huron/Detroit area for the 520? 2. If I and my more experienced CFII can't get insurance for the flight back, is there anyone in that area that has a lot of Commander hours (and/or ideally be a CFI) that could help me fly her back to LA VFR? 3. Who would be the best maintenance facility in the So Cal area for an old girl like this? I prefer a repair-and-fix approach rather than a replace-by-new approach to maintenance, if there's a choice. Thanks, A. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325062#325062 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Aircraft will be based at Santa Monica airport. A gentleman emailed and said he had his 500B serviced at John Wayne and I know there at least used to be a Commander specialist at Compton Airport. I don't mind if it's a bit away, as long as they have the right approach or come recommended. Where can I get a hold of Jim Metzger? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325097#325097 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Hi Barry. Yes, you're absolutely correct. S/N 62, N527P based in Port Huron. The current owner has been kind enough to scan in some of the performance figures from the POH for me, but any additional info would be most useful. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325100#325100 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nick Martin" <nick(at)container.com>
Subject: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Dear Adam, Welcome aboard .Where will you be based in Cal ? I am at El Monte ( KEMT). A California based CFII commander pilot is Hank Smull 818 317 8130 or cell 818 718 8040.Hank was a Commander test pilot and knows them well.good luck and fly safe..Nick N674NM -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:56 PM Subject: Commander-List: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Hi. New member here. Looks like I've just bought an old 520 from 1953. She's regularly flown, in annual and have her ducks in a row. She's based in MI, but will be flown back to Los Angeles where I live as soon as I can get her insured and inspected. Couple of questions: 1. Who would be able to potentially do a pre-buy inspection on the Port Huron/Detroit area for the 520? 2. If I and my more experienced CFII can't get insurance for the flight back, is there anyone in that area that has a lot of Commander hours (and/or ideally be a CFI) that could help me fly her back to LA VFR? 3. Who would be the best maintenance facility in the So Cal area for an old girl like this? I prefer a repair-and-fix approach rather than a replace-by-new approach to maintenance, if there's a choice. Thanks, A. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325062#325062 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HELLO ADAM....Jim Metzger here. Congratulations on your Commander!! If you have not consummated the deal, I strongly suggest contacting Morris Kernick, Commander Services, Stockton CA 321 403-8813 for a pre buy. No one knows more about Commanders than Morris and particularly the older ex amples. There are a few things to be concerned about including motor moun ts, brakes, fuel cells and propellers It will be the best "Commander Doll ars" you will ever spend. I also strongly suggest you finish your ME trai ning in a rented airplane. The geared engines on your 520 are not intended to be subjected to the abuse ME training will inflict on them. Once you have complete your rating, it will be a relatively simple matter to check out in the airplane. Operating the geared engines takes a little getting use to, but they are great power plants!! I can help move the airplane to its new home, and teach you a lot about the systems and engine operati on and hoe to fly your Commander, but I am not an instructor, so you would not be able to log the time. Feel free to call me at 360-903-6901. HAPP Y NEW YEAR TO ALL!!! jb -----Original Message----- From: stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> Sent: Fri, Dec 31, 2010 7:58 am Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Aircraft will be based at Santa Monica airport. A gentleman emailed and sa id he ad his 500B serviced at John Wayne and I know there at least used to be a ommander specialist at Compton Airport. I don't mind if it's a bit away, as ong as they have the right approach or come recommended. Where can I get a hold of Jim Metzger? ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325097#325097 ======================== =========== - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on -= the Contribution link below to find out more about -= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided -= by: -= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com -= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com -= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com - -= List Contribution Web Site: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -= Thank you for your generous support! - -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Hi Adam, OK - thanks for confirming that. I'll get the history of it extracted from my database and send it to you as an Excel .xls file shortly. Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee Sent: 31 December 2010 17:03 Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Hi Barry. Yes, you're absolutely correct. S/N 62, N527P based in Port Huron. The current owner has been kind enough to scan in some of the performance figures from the POH for me, but any additional info would be most useful. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325100#325100 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Thanks Jim. Yes, MEP rating will be done on a Duchess. The geared engines are not ideal for this kind of exercise, I've heard. I haven't consummated the deal yet and I would very much like to do a pre-buy. However, since the aircraft is out of the way in Michigan, it becomes a money thing. I have to ferry it back, paying for the CFI fees, their travel and expenses as well as getting a yearly policy (something I thought I could wait with and just get a one off ferry insurance). I don't think I can also afford to fly out an experienced A&P, his tools, expenses etc or I'm looking at another $10.000 on top of the sale price. At some point it becomes cost prohibitive. If I could find someone local that has some AC experience, that would be ideal. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325109#325109 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Hi Adam, Welcome to the wonderful world of Commanders. Although I live in Farmington, NM now, I had N680RR, 680Fp tied down at Hawthorne, CA. (HHR) for over 10 years. My maintenance work has always been done by Chris Miller of Security Aviation with his right hand man Pat Carrie Jr.. I still fly back to have them do my annual and other major work. Morris is your number one source of information and does very good work, it's just that he is up in Stockton, whereas Chris can drive over to SMO in case of emergency and is only a 10 minute flight from SMO. If the weather is decent, and a few loose ends can be tied up here in FMN next week I will fly back to HHR, and will be in town for about a week. If you want, call me (cell# 310.350.4594) and we can do lunch and I will introduce you to Chris. Although I had over a thousand hours in a Cessna Skymaster, (337C) the insurance company still required 50 hours of dual in the pressurized Commander with an 'approved flight instructor' (since the 520 is not pressurized your flight training requirement will probably not be as stringent). This training was with Hank Smull.....the guy is damn sharp! We probably flew about 10 or 15 hours single engine out over the Channel Islands up by Oxnard, so when the right engine died late one night on takeoff at about 500 ft. AGL, I just did what Hank had shown me to do and it was pretty much a non event. Because of the geared engines it is absolutely imperative that you get training from an instructor who KNOWS geared engines. Be sure that he really knows geared engines, and just doesn't think that he knows them. Again congratulations! "Moe" Mills N680RR 680Fp -------------------------------------------------- From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:55 PM Subject: Commander-List: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. > > Hi. New member here. > > Looks like I've just bought an old 520 from 1953. She's regularly flown, > in annual and have her ducks in a row. She's based in MI, but will be > flown back to Los Angeles where I live as soon as I can get her insured > and inspected. > > Couple of questions: > > 1. Who would be able to potentially do a pre-buy inspection on the Port > Huron/Detroit area for the 520? > > 2. If I and my more experienced CFII can't get insurance for the flight > back, is there anyone in that area that has a lot of Commander hours > (and/or ideally be a CFI) that could help me fly her back to LA VFR? > > 3. Who would be the best maintenance facility in the So Cal area for an > old girl like this? I prefer a repair-and-fix approach rather than a > replace-by-new approach to maintenance, if there's a choice. > > Thanks, > A. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325062#325062 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Hello Adam, I am another who would recommend Morris Kernick/Commander Services, although I should preface this by admitting that he is one of my closest friends now, after a decade of Commanderism. His price is very reasonable, his toolkit essentially one bag, and the money he will save you in the long run far outweighs any expense for the prebuy. If not for Morris, I would probably be another $100k+ into a Commander, instead of enjoying my 500B the way I am. Good luck, /John PS: And it won't cost you $10k. I think you would be pleased at Morris' rates. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 10:10 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Thanks Jim. Yes, MEP rating will be done on a Duchess. The geared engines are not ideal for this kind of exercise, I've heard. I haven't consummated the deal yet and I would very much like to do a pre-buy. However, since the aircraft is out of the way in Michigan, it becomes a money thing. I have to ferry it back, paying for the CFI fees, their travel and expenses as well as getting a yearly policy (something I thought I could wait with and just get a one off ferry insurance). I don't think I can also afford to fly out an experienced A&P, his tools, expenses etc or I'm looking at another $10.000 on top of the sale price. At some point it becomes cost prohibitive. If I could find someone local that has some AC experience, that would be ideal. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325109#325109 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Good Afternoon Barry, Just out of curiosity, how much trouble would it be to find out what happened to serial number 24? That was the first Commander I ever flew and it sticks in my memory because I had a major "Dark And Stormy Night" experience when I was flying it. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/31/2010 9:50:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hi Adam, Welcome, both to the chatlist and as a Commander owner. I'm guessing that you bought s/n 62, N527P? Let me know and I'll get the history of it to you. Best Regards, Barry Collman Aero Commander historian. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2010
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
stratobee wrote: > I don't think I can also afford to fly out an experienced A&P, his tools, expenses etc or I'm looking at another $10.000 on top of the sale price. > Adam, I'm going to be brutally honest here (and I have no doubt you'll get disagreement with what I'm about to say from others), but I say this with your best interests in mind and with the background to know what I'm talking about. If you can't afford to pull $10k out of you pocket and set it on fire without causing financial hardship after buying this airplane, you should not buy it. A 520 is an unsupported antique complex airplane. You can and should assume you'll need to throw more than $10k at it in the first year of ownership. Over time, you may be able to become knowledgeable enough to do quite a bit of work yourself and decrease your maintenance costs substantially, but as long as you're going to pay to have the airplane (well) maintained, it's going to cost real money. That said, the 520 is a fantastic little airplane. It's the lightest of the breed and has the best feel. If you know what you're getting in to and can support the needs of such a classic, you'll probably really enjoy it. It's always great to see a Commander end up with an owner who cares for it properly and keeps it in good condition. cheers, Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2010
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > That was the first Commander I ever flew and it sticks in my memory > because I had a major "Dark And Stormy Night" experience when I was > flying it. What chapter of the book will this story be in OB? :-) I, for one, would love to hear it! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Adam, >From personal experience, I suggest an independent pre-buy is the best money you will spend. The local Commander pro I hired for my pre-buy for 747H turned out to not only be a friend of the seller, but had worked on the plane as well. He had a vested interest, but it wasn't mine! He also performed an extensive annual. So good in fact that the left engine made it 3 hours before it failed. The right was minutes behind it! In simple terms, pay the money up front or pay a lot more later! A guy like Morris can give you a detailed plan to sort the bird out, and the priority of projects! Good luck! Craig >From my iPhone 4! On Dec 31, 2010, at 10:22 AM, "John Vormbaum" wrote: > > Hello Adam, > > I am another who would recommend Morris Kernick/Commander Services, although > I should preface this by admitting that he is one of my closest friends now, > after a decade of Commanderism. His price is very reasonable, his toolkit > essentially one bag, and the money he will save you in the long run far > outweighs any expense for the prebuy. > > If not for Morris, I would probably be another $100k+ into a Commander, > instead of enjoying my 500B the way I am. > > Good luck, > > /John > > PS: And it won't cost you $10k. I think you would be pleased at Morris' > rates. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 10:10 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. > > > Thanks Jim. > > Yes, MEP rating will be done on a Duchess. The geared engines are not ideal > for this kind of exercise, I've heard. > > I haven't consummated the deal yet and I would very much like to do a > pre-buy. However, since the aircraft is out of the way in Michigan, it > becomes a money thing. I have to ferry it back, paying for the CFI fees, > their travel and expenses as well as getting a yearly policy (something I > thought I could wait with and just get a one off ferry insurance). I don't > think I can also afford to fly out an experienced A&P, his tools, expenses > etc or I'm looking at another $10.000 on top of the sale price. At some > point it becomes cost prohibitive. If I could find someone local that has > some AC experience, that would be ideal. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325109#325109 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Hi "Old Bob", It will be all of 5 minutes 'work', so give me a few minutes to answer a few more emails and I'll get an Excel .xls file to you. Perhaps you could put together a Word .doc file on the "Dark and Stormy Night" experience for me? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: 31 December 2010 18:27 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Good Afternoon Barry, Just out of curiosity, how much trouble would it be to find out what happened to serial number 24? That was the first Commander I ever flew and it sticks in my memory because I had a major "Dark And Stormy Night" experience when I was flying it. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/31/2010 9:50:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hi Adam, Welcome, both to the chatlist and as a Commander owner. I'm guessing that you bought s/n 62, N527P? Let me know and I'll get the history of it to you. Best Regards, Barry Collman Aero Commander historian. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2010
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Good Afternoon Chris, Come on down to the Beech Party next Fall. Ask me abut it and you won't be able to get me to stop talking! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/31/2010 2:17:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, cschuerm(at)cox.net writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > That was the first Commander I ever flew and it sticks in my memory > because I had a major "Dark And Stormy Night" experience when I was > flying it. What chapter of the book will this story be in OB? :-) I, for one, would love to hear it! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2010
From: Donald Falik <dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
I am based in Michigan and had a 500S for 4 years and 1000 hours.=0A=0AI ha d 2 annuals done in Traverse City at Cherry Capital Aviation.- The owner of =0Athe FBO is Kent and his number is 231 941-1740.=0A=0AIt wasn't cheap. - The rates may sound reasonable BUT what they can find is =0Apurely subj ective and with the tremendous decrease in general aviation, the =0Aremaini ng service areas are using less pilots to fill their buckets and with a =0A 50+ year old aircraft the sky is the limit.=0A=0AIf you are paying a very r easonable price for the airplane, remember that is =0Ajust the price of adm ission.- I found that, unless you are married or have a =0Apersonal relat ionship with your mechanic the costs are astronomical.=0A=0AI went from $8- 9K annuals to $15-25K annuals when I lost my personal mechanic.- =0AThe f irst year of insurance for my 500S with $185K hull value was $7500 and I =0Ahad 200+ hours in an Apache.- The rate never got lower than $4500.=0A =0AI do feel that the Twin Commander is the finest twin a general aviation pilot =0Awill ever fly but it is not for the faint of heart financially.=0A =0ADon Falik=0A=0AJohn Towner in Kansas is a Twin Commander guru as he main tains a fleet of 35 of =0Athem.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________________ ___=0AFrom: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "commander-list (at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Fri, December 31, 20 10 3:30:00 PM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 qu hino_ps(at)yahoo.com>=0A=0AAdam,=0A=0A>From personal experience, I suggest an independent pre-buy is the best money you =0A>will spend. The local Command er pro I hired for my pre-buy for 747H turned out =0A>to not only be a frie nd of the seller, but had worked on the plane as well. He =0A>had a vested - interest, but it wasn't mine!- He also performed an extensive =0A>ann ual. So good in fact that the left engine made it- 3 hours before it fail ed. =0A>The right was minutes behind it!=0A=0AIn simple terms, pay the mone y up front or pay a lot more later!- A guy like =0AMorris can give you a detailed plan to sort the bird out, and the priority of =0Aprojects!=0A=0AG ood luck!=0A=0ACraig=0A=0A>From my iPhone 4!=0A=0AOn Dec 31, 2010, at 10:22 AM, "John Vormbaum" wrote:=0A=0A> --> Commander-List m essage posted by: "John Vormbaum" =0A> =0A> Hello Adam, =0A> =0A> I am another who would recommend Morris Kernick/Commander Service s, although=0A> I should preface this by admitting that he is one of my clo sest friends now,=0A> after a decade of Commanderism. His price is very rea sonable, his toolkit=0A> essentially one bag, and the money he will save yo u in the long run far=0A> outweighs any expense for the prebuy. =0A> =0A> I f not for Morris, I would probably be another $100k+ into a Commander,=0A> instead of enjoying my 500B the way I am.=0A> =0A> Good luck,=0A> =0A> /Joh n=0A> =0A> PS: And it won't cost you $10k. I think you would be pleased at Morris'=0A> rates.=0A> =0A> -----Original Message-----=0A> From: owner-comm ander-list-server(at)matronics.com=0A> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@mat ronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee=0A> Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 10:1 0 AM=0A> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0A> Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.=0A> =0A> --> Commander-List message post ed by: "stratobee" =0A> =0A> Thanks Jim.=0A> =0A> Yes, MEP rating will be done on a Duchess. The geared engines are not ideal=0A> for this kind of exercise, I've heard.=0A> =0A> I haven't consummated the deal yet and I would very much like to do a=0A> pre-buy. However, since the aircraft is out of the way in Michigan, it=0A> becomes a money thing. I ha ve to ferry it back, paying for the CFI fees,=0A> their travel and expenses as well as getting a yearly policy (something I=0A> thought I could wait w ith and just get a one off ferry insurance). I don't=0A> think I can also a fford to fly out- an experienced A&P, his tools, expenses=0A> etc or I'm looking at another $10.000 on top of the sale price. At some=0A> point it b ecomes cost prohibitive. If I could find someone local that has=0A> some AC experience, that would be ideal.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this topic o nline here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325109#3 25109=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, L ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
For me, too. It sounds like one of those worthy stories one would want to keep. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Hi "Old Bob", It will be all of 5 minutes 'work', so give me a few minutes to answer a few more emails and I'll get an Excel .xls file to you. Perhaps you could put together a Word .doc file on the "Dark and Stormy Night" experience for me? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: 31 December 2010 18:27 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Good Afternoon Barry, Just out of curiosity, how much trouble would it be to find out what happened to serial number 24? That was the first Commander I ever flew and it sticks in my memory because I had a major "Dark And Stormy Night" experience when I was flying it. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/31/2010 9:50:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hi Adam, Welcome, both to the chatlist and as a Commander owner. I'm guessing that you bought s/n 62, N527P? Let me know and I'll get the history of it to you. Best Regards, Barry Collman Aero Commander historian. www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Dec 31, 2010
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
WELL SAID CHRIS (Happy new year) Adam, I love all Commanders and will mo st likely always have one, but, as Chris and others have said these old ma sterpieces are not for the weak of wallet. Just so you reality check doesn 't bounce. If the propellers are the original (probably are) and require the on going inspection (as per the AD) the odds are very high (almost ce rtain) that you will need to replace them at some point. New they cost ab out 30K, EACH! There are some options, but the least expensive would cost 10K or more. The airplane has five fuel cells. If they are in good shap e (probably are) Great! If they need replaced, they cost about $1500 each , not installed. Replacing all five (very difficult to replace only one or two unless they are nearly new) will cost about 10K with labor. A pre buy wont be cheap, unless you don't do one. I love these airplanes and it warms my heat to see them remain in service and in good hands, but you ne ed to understand the financial commitment before you buy. Good luck and I hope you will do it right and then become an owner . jb 360-903-6901 -----Original Message----- From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> Sent: Fri, Dec 31, 2010 12:12 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. stratobee wrote: > I don't think I can also afford to fly out an experienced A&P, his tools , expenses etc or I'm looking at another $10.000 on top of the sale price. > Adam, I'm going to be brutally honest here (and I have no doubt you'll get disag reement with what I'm about to say from others), but I say this with your best interests in mind and with the background to know what I'm talking about. If you can't afford to pull $10k out of you pocket and set it on fire with out causing financial hardship after buying this airplane, you should not buy it. A 520 is an unsupported antique complex airplane. You can and sho uld assume you'll need to throw more than $10k at it in the first year of ownership. Over time, you may be able to become knowledgeable enough to do quite a bit of work yourself and decrease your maintenance costs subst antially, but as long as you're going to pay to have the airplane (well) maintained, it's going to cost real money. That said, the 520 is a fantastic little airplane. It's the lightest of th e breed and has the best feel. If you know what you're getting in to and can support the needs of such a classic, you'll probably really enjoy it. It's always great to see a Commander end up with an owner who cares for it properly and keeps it in good condition. cheers, Chris ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2010
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > Good Afternoon Chris, > Come on down to the Beech Party next Fall. Ask me abut it and you > won't be able to get me to stop talking! I *really* hope to make it Bob. Killed me to not be able to make the last one, but I've been working 100 hour weeks pretty much all year. One must seize such opportunities when they present themselves, but I'm sure hoping to have at least a few weekends off in 2011 ! cheers and happy new years to you and your family. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "n395v" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2011
You may want to look further into this>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=23445&key=0 If you haven't already NTSB Identification: LAX67F0049 14 CFR Part 91 General Aviation Event occurred Sunday, July 17, 1966 in PHOENIX, AZ Aircraft: AERO CMDR 520, registration: N527P ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA F S M/N PURPOSE----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3-3394 66/7/17 PHOENIX ARIZ AERO CMDR 520 CR- 0 0 1 NONCOMMERCIAL ATP,FLIGHT INSTR., AGE TIME - 1330 N527P PX- 0 0 1 BUSINESS 49, 9200 TOTAL HOURS, 80 DAMAGE-SUBSTANTIAL OT- 0 0 0 IN TYPE, NOT INSTRUMENT RATED. NAME OF AIRPORT - SKY HARBOR TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION GROUND-WATER LOOP-SWERVE LANDING: ROLL GEAR COLLAPSED LANDING: ROLL PROBABLE CAUSE(S) AIRFRAME - LANDING GEAR: BRAKING SYSTEM (NORMAL SYSTEM) FACTOR(S) MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - MISSING MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - DISCONNECTED MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - OVERLOAD FAILURE I would echo the comments of Chris, Jim and others. Sight unseen you just never know what you are getting. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325181#325181 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "Cate Chagnot" <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2011
Hi Adam, Welcome to the world of Commander ownership. Bill Leff is in Dayton, Ohio and probably knows about as much as anyone East of the Mississippi about Commanders. Give him a call. (cell 937-369-3334) Bill is also approved by most (if not all) the insurance companies to do the training. I did my training with Bill after I bought my 680E and do my recurrent training with him. As already pointed out, Commander ownership is not for the faint of wallet. If you try to analyze the cost of ownership you'll probably freak out and run away. If I told my accountant about the money I spend every year on my wonderful airplane he'd have me certified insane and locked away. At least you've found this site and joined the Commander group. These guys are a wonderful group, the font of all Commander wisdom between them and always willing to go out of their way to help. My advice? Start calling and talking to anyone and everyone you can. Good luck and have fun! Cate Commander 680E N4278S :P -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325182#325182 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2011
Subject: What I learned last week
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (iMac)" <deneals(at)deneals.com>
That when N888CA is googled, my site is at the top of the list. I found this out, when someone unknown to me, sent me pictures taken of 888CA the evening of its demise. Each one of these incidents I feel personally. I know that John feels the same way, which is why I waited to mention anything about the accident on this list. But these sure are Tough Birds! Check out the pictures in the Channel Ten article. The pictures also remind me of the time that N83MC ran out of fuel coming back to MKC from Elyria in January of 1984. <http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=87021> -- Deneal Schilmeister, ATP Learjet St. Louis Cincinnati Chicago http://deneals.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2011
I appreciate the candor. I came very close to owning a Cessna 337 some time ago and have been at the Skymaster forum for many years, so I think I have fairly good idea of the costs of twin ownership. This being 15-20 years older and bigger and with unsupported engines, will probably add a bit to that. I'm expecting to see about $30.000/year, all in. Hopefully less than that, but that's what I've been told to prepare myself mentally for. The props are on the recurring 500hrs/5years AD inspection and have run 161hrs and 18 months since the last one. Annual was done this summer. Aircraft has 5500hrs total, which seems like a nice number for her age and hopefully means she's been flown and not been sitting idle too much. Engines are 850 and 900hrs respectively. Hopefully with a little babying they'll make it past TBO. I like to throttle back and look at the scenery, so hopefully I can run them at non-geared rpm's, 2500-2700rpm. I'm hoping they will take kindly to this. The $ 40K/engine quote I got from Central Cylinders in Omaha is going to be a tough pill to swallow when it happens... I'm planning for liability insurance only, no hull. Couple of questions: 1. The wing AD is not in effect on the first Commanders, right? I seem to remember reading that they only came with the models that mixed stainless steel with aluminum in the spar - was it somewhere around the early 60's? 2. What about the fuel cells - can they be repaired if they're damaged? 3. Heard that the engine mounts are a weak spot on these. Are they made of steel and can be welded/repaired? Is it a costly thing? 4. Are there any alternatives to the prop in case they need replacing? Someone mentioned something about a Queen Air prop STC? 5. Are there alternative (read cheaper) ways/places of overhauling the GO-435's than the quoted 40K? Any other weak spots on these early models I should keep an eye out for? Thanks, A. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325277#325277 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Jan 02, 2011
Hi Adam, I also owned a 337C for quite some time and put over 1,000 hours on it. That birds problem is, of course, the Continental IO 360 engines which are very prone to case cracking. Having said that, the Skymaster was really CHEAP to operate as compared to my Commander. They are both great airplanes, but are completely different birds. Regards, Moe N680RR 680Fp -------------------------------------------------- From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 11:05 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. > > I appreciate the candor. > > I came very close to owning a Cessna 337 some time ago and have been at > the Skymaster forum for many years, so I think I have fairly good idea of > the costs of twin ownership. This being 15-20 years older and bigger and > with unsupported engines, will probably add a bit to that. I'm expecting > to see about $30.000/year, all in. Hopefully less than that, but that's > what I've been told to prepare myself mentally for. > > The props are on the recurring 500hrs/5years AD inspection and have run > 161hrs and 18 months since the last one. Annual was done this summer. > Aircraft has 5500hrs total, which seems like a nice number for her age and > hopefully means she's been flown and not been sitting idle too much. > Engines are 850 and 900hrs respectively. Hopefully with a little babying > they'll make it past TBO. I like to throttle back and look at the scenery, > so hopefully I can run them at non-geared rpm's, 2500-2700rpm. I'm hoping > they will take kindly to this. The $ 40K/engine quote I got from Central > Cylinders in Omaha is going to be a tough pill to swallow when it > happens... > > I'm planning for liability insurance only, no hull. > > Couple of questions: > > 1. The wing AD is not in effect on the first Commanders, right? I seem to > remember reading that they only came with the models that mixed stainless > steel with aluminum in the spar - was it somewhere around the early 60's? > > 2. What about the fuel cells - can they be repaired if they're damaged? > > 3. Heard that the engine mounts are a weak spot on these. Are they made of > steel and can be welded/repaired? Is it a costly thing? > > 4. Are there any alternatives to the prop in case they need replacing? > Someone mentioned something about a Queen Air prop STC? > > 5. Are there alternative (read cheaper) ways/places of overhauling the > GO-435's than the quoted 40K? > > Any other weak spots on these early models I should keep an eye out for? > > Thanks, > A. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325277#325277 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2011
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
stratobee wrote: > Couple of questions: > I haven't seen anyone posting answers, so I'll try to help out with a couple of these... > 1. The wing AD is not in effect on the first Commanders, right? The "big" AD (dissimilar metal corrosion) does not apply to the 520. There are several other wing related ADs which do, however. The lower spar cap radius where the spar exits the fuselage requires repetitive inspections for cracks (and a modification if not already done). There is also one requiring some reinforcements in the wing which involve cutting a big hole in the leading edge. I don't remember for certain when it has to be done, but 7000 hours sticks in my mind. > 2. What about the fuel cells - can they be repaired if they're damaged? > Yes. There are multiple sources for new and re-manufactured fuel cells. > 3. Heard that the engine mounts are a weak spot on these. Are they made of steel and can be welded/repaired? Is it a costly thing? > The mounts are fabricated from aluminum and likely have already had repairs made with over 5000 hours on the airframe. New or serviceable mounts would likely be impossible to come by but they can be well repaired by a competent fabricator. > 4. Are there any alternatives to the prop in case they need replacing? Someone mentioned something about a Queen Air prop STC? > Unfortunately no (unless something new has happened). The Queen Air props are not approved for the GO435 installation. You're going to need to continue the re-occuring inspection until they fail then either find some acceptable used parts or bite the bullet and purchase new MV series props which eliminate the AD. > 5. Are there alternative (read cheaper) ways/places of overhauling the GO-435's than the quoted 40K? > Very few shops will touch the geared lycomings these days. The gearbox parts are getting very rare and expensive. I purchased a set of new cylinders about 12 years ago and was told at the time that they were the last NEW jugs in existence although there must be a few around somewhere. An item of note: a shop is required to have a repair station license and approval to overhaul the geared lycoming engines. That's one of the reasons so few shops work on them. Not worth the hassle. You might find someplace that will overhaul them for less money, but remember two things: there is a big difference between a "service limits" overhaul and a "new limits" overhaul. Also, at overhaul, you're getting "less worn out" parts rather than new for many items. > Any other weak spots on these early models I should keep an eye out for? > Overall, it's a great airframe with few major problem areas. The biggest trouble spot that I've seen is the truss assemblies in the nacelles. These trusses are fabricated from 7075T651 aluminum (modern designation) and are subject to inter-granular corrosion. They attach to the wing spar and are the primary attach points for both the landing gear and the engine mount. Inspect very carefully where the ears protrude through the firewall and become the engine mount attach points. This area is usually hidden behind some baffling material and almost always has corrosion. Also, there is a side-ways brace running diagonally outwards from the outboard truss. It should be removed from the airplane and the area where it attaches to the lower spar cap inspected. Commanders tend to have greater levels of corrosion throughout the airframe. I believe this is because many of them have spent their lives non-hangared. It's not really due to any aspect of the design other than it's size. I'd also verify that the engines have the larger 1/2" exhaust valves. The earlier p/n 7/16th valves are very prone to breaking and causing expensive damage. The old Goodyear brakes are no longer supported. They were pretty good brakes and easy to work on, but the silly pucks have become quite expensive. Stock up on spare parts when you run across them. Oh, and just purchase a 55gal barrel of 5606 and the proper tools to make your own hydraulic hoses and you'll be a happy camper. Hope this helps a little. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Date: Jan 02, 2011
Chris, I have made hydraulic hoses before. We had it part of my shop. Can a owner make Aviation Hydraulic Hoses for his own plane? Hose and fitting are easy. Parker has aviation hose and fittings. What about paper work and record keeping???? Tylor Hall On Jan 2, 2011, at 6:39 PM, Chris wrote: > > stratobee wrote: >> Couple of questions: >> > I haven't seen anyone posting answers, so I'll try to help out with a couple of these... > >> 1. The wing AD is not in effect on the first Commanders, right? > The "big" AD (dissimilar metal corrosion) does not apply to the 520. There are several other wing related ADs which do, however. The lower spar cap radius where the spar exits the fuselage requires repetitive inspections for cracks (and a modification if not already done). There is also one requiring some reinforcements in the wing which involve cutting a big hole in the leading edge. I don't remember for certain when it has to be done, but 7000 hours sticks in my mind. >> 2. What about the fuel cells - can they be repaired if they're damaged? >> > Yes. There are multiple sources for new and re-manufactured fuel cells. > >> 3. Heard that the engine mounts are a weak spot on these. Are they made of steel and can be welded/repaired? Is it a costly thing? >> > The mounts are fabricated from aluminum and likely have already had repairs made with over 5000 hours on the airframe. New or serviceable mounts would likely be impossible to come by but they can be well repaired by a competent fabricator. >> 4. Are there any alternatives to the prop in case they need replacing? Someone mentioned something about a Queen Air prop STC? >> > Unfortunately no (unless something new has happened). The Queen Air props are not approved for the GO435 installation. You're going to need to continue the re-occuring inspection until they fail then either find some acceptable used parts or bite the bullet and purchase new MV series props which eliminate the AD. > >> 5. Are there alternative (read cheaper) ways/places of overhauling the GO-435's than the quoted 40K? >> > Very few shops will touch the geared lycomings these days. The gearbox parts are getting very rare and expensive. I purchased a set of new cylinders about 12 years ago and was told at the time that they were the last NEW jugs in existence although there must be a few around somewhere. An item of note: a shop is required to have a repair station license and approval to overhaul the geared lycoming engines. That's one of the reasons so few shops work on them. Not worth the hassle. You might find someplace that will overhaul them for less money, but remember two things: there is a big difference between a "service limits" overhaul and a "new limits" overhaul. Also, at overhaul, you're getting "less worn out" parts rather than new for many items. >> Any other weak spots on these early models I should keep an eye out for? >> > Overall, it's a great airframe with few major problem areas. The biggest trouble spot that I've seen is the truss assemblies in the nacelles. These trusses are fabricated from 7075T651 aluminum (modern designation) and are subject to inter-granular corrosion. They attach to the wing spar and are the primary attach points for both the landing gear and the engine mount. Inspect very carefully where the ears protrude through the firewall and become the engine mount attach points. This area is usually hidden behind some baffling material and almost always has corrosion. Also, there is a side-ways brace running diagonally outwards from the outboard truss. It should be removed from the airplane and the area where it attaches to the lower spar cap inspected. > > Commanders tend to have greater levels of corrosion throughout the airframe. I believe this is because many of them have spent their lives non-hangared. It's not really due to any aspect of the design other than it's size. > > I'd also verify that the engines have the larger 1/2" exhaust valves. The earlier p/n 7/16th valves are very prone to breaking and causing expensive damage. > > The old Goodyear brakes are no longer supported. They were pretty good brakes and easy to work on, but the silly pucks have become quite expensive. Stock up on spare parts when you run across them. > > Oh, and just purchase a 55gal barrel of 5606 and the proper tools to make your own hydraulic hoses and you'll be a happy camper. > > Hope this helps a little. > Chris > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2011
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Tylor Hall wrote: > Can a owner make Aviation Hydraulic Hoses for his own plane? > The FARs are very specific about a limited set of approved tasks an owner can perform Tylor. You'll need a licensed mechanic to be involved with the hoses. Remember that you can do anything as long as you are being supervised by an A&P. AC43.13 has specific guidance for proper assembly, testing, and documentation. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "n395v" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2011
> Can a owner make Aviation Hydraulic Hoses for his own plane? > Hose and fitting are easy. > What about paper work and record keeping???? > Don't ask, don't tell. Who's gonna know. If you have confidence in your own ability I wouldn't hesitate to put home made hose on it. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325414#325414 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Jan 03, 2011
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
First, it is not legal, but................ Making hoses is not as easy as it sounds. takes special tools and there are some tricks that only ex perience can teach. If it fails, it can be a real problem. jb -----Original Message----- From: n395v <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com> Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 5:37 am Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. > Can a owner make Aviation Hydraulic Hoses for his own plane? Hose and fitting are easy. What about paper work and record keeping???? on't ask, don't tell. Who's gonna know. If you have confidence in your own ability I wouldn't hesitate to put hom e made ose on it. -------- ilt ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325414#325414 ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Jan 03, 2011
I am wondering, if it becomes evident after a crash, whether passengers' life insurance would be compromised. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:55 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. First, it is not legal, but................ Making hoses is not as easy as it sounds. takes special tools and there are some tricks that only experience can teach. If it fails, it can be a real problem. jb -----Original Message----- From: n395v <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com> Sent: Mon, Jan 3, 2011 5:37 am Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. > Can a owner make Aviation Hydraulic Hoses for his own plane? > Hose and fitting are easy. > What about paper work and record keeping???? > Don't ask, don't tell. Who's gonna know. If you have confidence in your own ability I wouldn't hesitate to put home made hose on it. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325414#325414 =================================== t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== tp://forums.matronics.com =================================== _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Jan 03, 2011
Having spent hours helping Morris scrub 5606 off my airplane, plus the money to fix a *very* gentle nosegear collapse, I am of the opinion that if you have an airplane that has a 1,000 psi hydraulic system, you might want to invest in some very nicely built professional-quality hoses. Of course, we've had some hoses come from the 'big guys' that failed too, so there's that... /J -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n395v Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 5:38 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. > Can a owner make Aviation Hydraulic Hoses for his own plane? > Hose and fitting are easy. > What about paper work and record keeping???? > Don't ask, don't tell. Who's gonna know. If you have confidence in your own ability I wouldn't hesitate to put home made hose on it. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325414#325414 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "n395v" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2011
> I am wondering, if it becomes evident after a crash, whether passengers' life insurance would be compromised. > I doubt it would affect their insurance but it would certainly negate the insurance on the aircraft which, to me, would be the single best reason not to build your own. As John mentions even hose built by the pros can fail so in my mind if you have done it before, have the skill, knowledge, and equipment to make and test them I would not hesitate to do so. As for the legality, being one who has spent a lifetime playing by the rules and trying to not break the law I must say the way our own government is trampling the constitution and screwing those who have spent a lifetime playing by the rules........well lets just say legal is not a huge concern I have. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325478#325478 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Jan 03, 2011
If you make them yourself they don't have the stainless band that has the info. on it that a certified shop will place on a new hose. I have been told that I can't make the hoses because they are commercially available from several faa approved shops. -------------------------------------------------- From: "n395v" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 5:37 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. > > > >> Can a owner make Aviation Hydraulic Hoses for his own plane? >> Hose and fitting are easy. >> What about paper work and record keeping???? >> > > > Don't ask, don't tell. > > Who's gonna know. > > If you have confidence in your own ability I wouldn't hesitate to put home > made hose on it. > > -------- > Milt > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325414#325414 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William J Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Date: Jan 05, 2011
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Before you start making your own hoses, get the right data and a set of the proper mandrels for the assembly. Read up carefully on the correct techniques, and the pitfalls, and make certain you can pressure test them as appropriate for the hose size. Doing the pressure test is crucial. What can look like a proper assembly may not be, the only way is "by the book", including the pressure test. For what it is worth, I pressure test to the pressure recommended by the hose manufacturer, which will be more than the 150% of working pressure which is, from memory, i n AC43.13A or B. I have never had a hose blow from improper assembly, but I have seen plenty that have!! Cheers, Bill Hamilton > n395v wrote: > > > > > > Can a owner make Aviation Hydraulic Hoses for his own plane? > > Hose and fitting are easy. > > What about paper work and record keeping???? > > > > > Don't ask, don't tell. > > Who's gonna know. > > If you have confidence in your own ability I wouldn't hesitate to put > home made hose on it. > > -------- > Milt > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325414#325414 > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Jan 04, 2011
Does anyone know if the GO-435's have an oil filter or just an oil screen sump? If it just has a screen - can (and should) it be converted to oil filter? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325610#325610 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2011
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
They have a screen, but there is an stc for a filter. ________________________________ From: stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 5:18:59 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Does anyone know if the GO-435's have an oil filter or just an oil screen sump? If it just has a screen - can (and should) it be converted to oil filter? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325610#325610 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Jan 05, 2011
Is it worth changing to an oil filter system? I've heard the screens don't clean as well as an oil filter and are harder to get to. Also, the 520 being so light and small - what would a reasonable take off distance be full tanks, 2 persons on board, standard day, sea level? Ballpark figure. I've heard some people operating out of 1400ft, but that seems close to the bone. There's a guy at 15WA airfield in Washington who regularly flies his 500 out of that 2000ft grass strip, so I'm assuming a tarmac 1400ft field could be OK. Here's a link to his landings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctf1ZycVag8 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325659#325659 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "n395v" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Date: Jan 05, 2011
> Here's a link to his landings: That's Dave Pfeiffer, I believe he has a Colemill or some other conversion giving him 310+HP per side soprobably not a good comparison. What made you decide against the Skymaster? -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325680#325680 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2011
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: Morris Kernick <comserv500s(at)gmail.com>
Adam: Regarding your question about oil filters. I do not think installing oil filter kits will make economic sense, as they are expensive, labor intensive to install, & offer one more possibility for engine oil leaks & starvation. We have maintained geared Lycoming engines for years with screens, with no problems. Just regular oil changes, cleaning screens, & good engine maintenance is adequate. As for takeoff distance with your loading requirements, 1,400 feet will be no problem. The aircraft in the video link you sent is one of our customers. Dave Phifer has a 500B with Merlyn Products 320 hp engine conversion, gross weight is 7,200 lbs. Geared engine airplanes tend to accelerate better than direct drive, so takeoff distances are usually better. Braking on landing will be more consideration on short runways. I spoke to Vic & his mechanic Bob, today, they are sending me some information that I requested. I have appointments on Friday & Saturday, I could not reschedule, so will try for a reservation for Sun. afternoon to Detroit. I will send you a copy of my schedule when confirmed. Thanks, Morris On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:41 AM, stratobee wrote: > > Is it worth changing to an oil filter system? I've heard the screens don't clean as well as an oil filter and are harder to get to. > > Also, the 520 being so light and small - what would a reasonable take off distance be full tanks, 2 persons on board, standard day, sea level? Ballpark figure. I've heard some people operating out of 1400ft, but that seems close to the bone. There's a guy at 15WA airfield in Washington who regularly flies his 500 out of that 2000ft grass strip, so I'm assuming a tarmac 1400ft field could be OK. > > Here's a link to his landings: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctf1ZycVag8 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325659#325659 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "Cate Chagnot" <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Date: Jan 05, 2011
Adam, 1400 ft? Close to the bone? I'll say... If everything is working and an engine doesn't sputter maybe after you've had a bunch of practice. I fly a C180 Skywagon with a full Horton STOL and 1000' always seems short. I just got back from flying a U206 Air Ambulance in South America for awhile and everything's got to be right when you're operating in and out of short strips. 1400 feet is going to look like a postage stamp in a Commander.... Before I'd try it I'd go out and mark out 1400 feet on a long runway and practice, practice, practice. It seems to me that 1400 ft is probably beyond the accelerate/stop distance, especially if you've got the goodyear brakes and not the Clevelands. One of the first things I did after I got my 680E was to put Cleveland brakes on it. Cut my accelerate/stop distance almost in half. Best money I spent at $5,000 for the pair. Cate -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325695#325695 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Jan 05, 2011
Thanks Morris. I will be going to Detroit myself probably mid next week if all works out here in London in time. Maybe I'll see you there, or just miss you, but we'll def speak on the phone. Milt - well, for as long as I've flown and can remember, I've had four aircrafts that I've obsessed about: Skymasters, Aero Commanders, Aerostars and Lake Amphibians (two Ted Smith designs, so he must have done something right in my eyes!). Internally they constantly change place in some kind of childish, twisted Top 4 list. I had a Skymaster obsessive period beginning of the year (when I almost bought a 336 and inquired about a P337) and then it shifted to Lake Amphibians more towards the autumn. I thought that would be a good choice for a first time buyer, and it probably would have been. They're sturdy aircrafts and relatively simple. The red thread here is I like utility and being able to get into smaller, rougher fields. More bush than posh. OK, that doesn't explain Aerostars, but they're just...hot. So when N527P came along on Ebay, I pretty much just bid on it to see where the reserve price was, giving myself $500 above the asking price to play with as I was certain I was going to buy a Lake. Turns out the reserve was just right there - I was the instant high bidder on my first bid. I thought someone would come along during the week and outbid me, but then nobody did. So I kind of became the owner by accident. It did freak me out a bit at first, but I've come to terms with it now. Is it a good first buy for a rookie owner? Probably not, a 500B would perhaps have been a better choice (and more than I could afford), but hey, at least it will be an experience. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325696#325696 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Jan 05, 2011
Cate Chagnot wrote: > Adam, > > 1400 ft? Close to the bone? I'll say... If everything is working and an engine doesn't sputter maybe after you've had a bunch of practice. I fly a C180 Skywagon with a full Horton STOL and 1000' always seems short. I just got back from flying a U206 Air Ambulance in South America for awhile and everything's got to be right when you're operating in and out of short strips. 1400 feet is going to look like a postage stamp in a Commander.... > > Before I'd try it I'd go out and mark out 1400 feet on a long runway and practice, practice, practice. It seems to me that 1400 ft is probably beyond the accelerate/stop distance, especially if you've got the goodyear brakes and not the Clevelands. One of the first things I did after I got my 680E was to put Cleveland brakes on it. Cut my accelerate/stop distance almost in half. Best money I spent at $5,000 for the pair. > > Cate Hi Cate. Unfortunately, apparently there is no brake upgrade on the 520 to anything newer, so I'm stuck with the old ones. Yeah, 1400ft isn't much. I started flying in Sweden many years ago, and then lived 7 years in England and flew there. England has rather few American style long tarmac runways, so one has to contend with a lot of grass fields. I quite regularly fly (or should say flew) into short grass fields, but that was obviously smaller single Cessnas. The specified take off distance of the 520 (thank you Barry!) is a published 950ft. I've been told it's the quickest of all the Commanders to get off the ground. Still, going for smaller gravel or grass fields is not something I will be doing until I feel comfortable in all aspects. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325699#325699 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Jan 05, 2011
Once you go into a strip under 2500' you have to ignore stop-start distances. When you open the taps on takeoff, you have no more than 10 seconds to decide to abandon. Otherwise, you fly. Period. If you lose an engine after that, you have a single-engine heavy weight on your hands. With proper energy management you would be slightly better off than a single that lost an engine, but you aren't going anywhere far anyway. I think it was Bob Hoover who said, fly the plane as far into the accident as you possibly can. I liked what Cate said, practice, practice and when you are done, practice again. (paraphrased). Going into the general flying area and setting up an imaginary runway at a particular altitude can give one surprising insight into problems close to the 'ground'. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:41 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. Is it worth changing to an oil filter system? I've heard the screens don't clean as well as an oil filter and are harder to get to. Also, the 520 being so light and small - what would a reasonable take off distance be full tanks, 2 persons on board, standard day, sea level? Ballpark figure. I've heard some people operating out of 1400ft, but that seems close to the bone. There's a guy at 15WA airfield in Washington who regularly flies his 500 out of that 2000ft grass strip, so I'm assuming a tarmac 1400ft field could be OK. Here's a link to his landings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctf1ZycVag8 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325659#325659 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
Date: Jan 06, 2011
Filters can be installed with a one time field inspection. Chris at Security Aviation did my 680Fp some time ago, and I believe that he has multiple instillation permission. Moe N680RR 680Fp From: craig kennedy Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. They have a screen, but there is an stc for a filter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 5:18:59 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2011
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
One lesson that still sticks in my mind was one I learned at my first Commander fly-in in '99, while having a cocktail with Morris and Keith Gordon (at that point I had about 150 hours in my 500B....100% of my experience in twins....and barely more as PIC of anything). They mentioned that it's very easy to fly a Commander into a strip that you could never leave. That lesson was driven home at the conclusion of that trip, when, as a test, I flew a slightly slower approach and landed my airplane to a full stop in about 800 feet. Granted, I have Clevelands on my airplane. Still, it's not difficult to do. On the other hand, I've left Lake Tahoe (6,250 MSL) in august at 85 deg.F. And had the gear in the wells in 3,000 feet of runway, with full tanks, 4 people and baggage on board, exactly as Morris predicted during my nervous pre-takeoff phone call to him. Normally aspirated, as my turbos were broken at the time. These airplanes are amazingly capable. /J Sent from my iPad On Jan 5, 2011, at 7:55 PM, cybersuperstore wrote: > > Once you go into a strip under 2500' you have to ignore stop-start > distances. When you open the taps on takeoff, you have no more than 10 > seconds to decide to abandon. Otherwise, you fly. Period. If you lose an > engine after that, you have a single-engine heavy weight on your hands. With > proper energy management you would be slightly better off than a single that > lost an engine, but you aren't going anywhere far anyway. I think it was Bob > Hoover who said, fly the plane as far into the accident as you possibly can. > > > I liked what Cate said, practice, practice and when you are done, practice > again. (paraphrased). Going into the general flying area and setting up an > imaginary runway at a particular altitude can give one surprising insight > into problems close to the 'ground'. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stratobee > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:41 AM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. > > > Is it worth changing to an oil filter system? I've heard the screens don't > clean as well as an oil filter and are harder to get to. > > Also, the 520 being so light and small - what would a reasonable take off > distance be full tanks, 2 persons on board, standard day, sea level? > Ballpark figure. I've heard some people operating out of 1400ft, but that > seems close to the bone. There's a guy at 15WA airfield in Washington who > regularly flies his 500 out of that 2000ft grass strip, so I'm assuming a > tarmac 1400ft field could be OK. > > Here's a link to his landings: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctf1ZycVag8 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325659#325659 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Removal of Main Gear Doors
Date: Jan 09, 2011
Hello All, Does anybody know the STC No. that allows the removal of the main gear aft wheel well doors on Turbo Commanders? My database reflects that 690B s/n 11522 was used as N691WM for obtaining the STC in February 1992 and the STC subsequently issued was No. SA8214SW. However, a suitable search of the FAA's website for STC's fails to find this. Also, does anybody know the weight saving that results? Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Removal of Main Gear Doors
Date: Jan 09, 2011
Hello All, Just thought of another question here! For those Turbo Commanders that retain these doors, do they remain in the down position when the gear is down? I think not, as most photos taken before 1992 show them in the retracted, or up, position. Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: 09 January 2011 19:20 Subject: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Does anybody know the STC No. that allows the removal of the main gear aft wheel well doors on Turbo Commanders? My database reflects that 690B s/n 11522 was used as N691WM for obtaining the STC in February 1992 and the STC subsequently issued was No. SA8214SW. However, a suitable search of the FAA's website for STC's fails to find this. Also, does anybody know the weight saving that results? Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2011
Subject: Re: Removal of Main Gear Doors
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (MacbookPro)" <deneals(at)deneals.com>
If I recall correctly, the close close after the gear is extended. One of the preflight items is to manually (with one's hands) to force open one set (I forget which side) to check the pressure gauge. -- Deneal Schilmeister On 1/9/11 1:37 PM, "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote: > For those Turbo Commanders that retain these doors, do they remain in the > down position when the gear is down? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack B. Mills" <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Removal of Main Gear Doors
Date: Jan 09, 2011
Barry, They close when the gear is down, however, a lot of the ones that I see around seem to sag a bit. Moe N680RR -------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:37 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors > <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> > > Hello All, > > Just thought of another question here! > For those Turbo Commanders that retain these doors, do they remain in the > down position when the gear is down? > I think not, as most photos taken before 1992 show them in the retracted, > or > up, position. > > Best Regards, > Barry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry > Collman > Sent: 09 January 2011 19:20 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors > > --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> > > Hello All, > > Does anybody know the STC No. that allows the removal of the main gear aft > wheel well doors on Turbo Commanders? > > My database reflects that 690B s/n 11522 was used as N691WM for obtaining > the STC in February 1992 and the STC subsequently issued was No. SA8214SW. > However, a suitable search of the FAA's website for STC's fails to find > this. > > Also, does anybody know the weight saving that results? > > Best Regards, > Barry > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stan" <swperk(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Removal of Main Gear Doors
Date: Jan 09, 2011
Hi Barry, I know this isn't an answer to either of your questions, but I've done some investigating into these clamshell doors, and here's what I've found out, thanks to Morris: The advantage to having the clamshell doors is about a 5 knot gain in cruise speed. The disadvantage is that the increased complexity of the sequencing to open and close the clamshells at just the right time increases gear operating times from the six-second range to about 20 seconds. There's also more chance of something not sequencing correctly, the doors being out of adjustment, etc. All things considered, I'd rather *not* have them. More to your original question: I found an ad for a 690B for sale, and it listed several STCs that had been done (including the clamshell door removal, which it identified as SA8214SW). I found only one of the four STCs on the FAA that was both present and correct: the one for replacement of the exhaust ejectors. So you may have the right info, and it's just the FAA database that's a problem. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:20 AM Subject: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Does anybody know the STC No. that allows the removal of the main gear aft wheel well doors on Turbo Commanders? My database reflects that 690B s/n 11522 was used as N691WM for obtaining the STC in February 1992 and the STC subsequently issued was No. SA8214SW. However, a suitable search of the FAA's website for STC's fails to find this. Also, does anybody know the weight saving that results? Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Removal of Main Gear Doors
Date: Jan 10, 2011
Hi Stan, Grateful thanks, and also to Deneal & Moe. Very Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Sent: 10 January 2011 05:56 Subject: RE: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors Hi Barry, I know this isn't an answer to either of your questions, but I've done some investigating into these clamshell doors, and here's what I've found out, thanks to Morris: The advantage to having the clamshell doors is about a 5 knot gain in cruise speed. The disadvantage is that the increased complexity of the sequencing to open and close the clamshells at just the right time increases gear operating times from the six-second range to about 20 seconds. There's also more chance of something not sequencing correctly, the doors being out of adjustment, etc. All things considered, I'd rather *not* have them. More to your original question: I found an ad for a 690B for sale, and it listed several STCs that had been done (including the clamshell door removal, which it identified as SA8214SW). I found only one of the four STCs on the FAA that was both present and correct: the one for replacement of the exhaust ejectors. So you may have the right info, and it's just the FAA database that's a problem. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:20 AM Subject: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Does anybody know the STC No. that allows the removal of the main gear aft wheel well doors on Turbo Commanders? My database reflects that 690B s/n 11522 was used as N691WM for obtaining the STC in February 1992 and the STC subsequently issued was No. SA8214SW. However, a suitable search of the FAA's website for STC's fails to find this. Also, does anybody know the weight saving that results? Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Cancelled "N" numbers
Date: Jan 11, 2011
Hello All, Last week, the FAA cancelled the Registration of a number of Commanders that were Registered to Dealers, because their Dealer Certificate had expired. I understand that these Commanders were among 275 other such aircraft that the FAA cancelled for the same reason. If anybody has sighted these Commanders in recent years, or knows of their present whereabouts, or has any photos of them, I'll be grateful for a heads-up. The details of the Commanders involved follows, with quick 'Google' searches producing no answers. N6248G, Model 500B s/n 1381-137, formerly XC-FUL, N446 Mexican Registration XC-FUL cancelled November 24th 1995 and N6248G Registered on January 19th 1996 to John Stone (d/b/a Southwest Assets), 1409 Redbud Lane, Newcastle, Oklahoma. No new Certificate of Airworthiness issued on its return to the USA and Registration cancelled by the FAA on January 3rd 2011. Fate not known, but it's always possible I suppose that it was never physically returned and remained in Mexico. N6207B, Model 680 s/n 680-607-240 Was bought by H Swift Aircraft Sales, of Elkton, Florida on April 29th 1982 and Registered July 14th 1982. Following a new Application for Registration, was then Registered on June 13th 2006 to Harold O Swift Jr (d/b/a H Swift Aircraft Sales), 8835 Hastings Boulevard, Hastings, Florida. Fate not known. N47RR, Model 680FLP s/n 1477-5, formerly N18WT, N40CP, N180E, N180VW, N873DN, N873D, N6322U Was modified to a Mr RPM Turbo 800 in February 1974 as N40CP. As N47RR it was sold in March 2003 and Registered on May 13th 2003 to Hurley Aircraft Corp., in Titusville, Florida. Following a new Application for Registration dated June 4th 2004, it was then Registered to Hurley Aircraft Corp., 439 Grand Avenue, Bigfork, Montana. In August 2004, it was repaired following the collapse of the r/h main gear after the hydraulic lines being connected backwards. Some of you may recall this one was the subject of a query on the 'chatlist' some years ago, regarding a strange venture-like device on the r/h lower forward fuselage. I have today found this 680FLP being advertised for sale on the website at www.aviatorsale.com/aix4817/ I have emailed Ralph Hurley from an email address on this website, but no reply has been received yet. He seems to be domiciled at 1600 West Highway 76, Branson, Missouri but I have no idea how recent this advert is. I also have a photo of this 680FLP, taken at Cleburne, Texas as recently as January 2009 and it looks to be in pretty good shape. Any help or leads will be very much appreciated. Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cancelled "N" numbers
Date: Jan 11, 2011
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Have not seen any of these, sorry. jb -----Original Message----- From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 2:53 pm Subject: Commander-List: Cancelled "N" numbers Hello All, Last week, the FAA cancelled the Registration of a number of Commanders th at were Registered to Dealers, because their Dealer Certificate had expire d. I understand that these Commanders were among 275 other such aircraft that the FAA cancelled for the same reason. If anybody has sighted these Commanders in recent years, or knows of their present whereabouts, or has any photos of them, I'll be grateful for a he ads-up. The details of the Commanders involved follows, with quick =98Google =99 searches producing no answers. N6248G, Model 500B s/n 1381-137, formerly XC-FUL, N446 Mexican Registration XC-FUL cancelled November 24th 1995 and N6248G Regist ered on January 19th 1996 to John Stone (d/b/a Southwest Assets), 1409 Red bud Lane, Newcastle, Oklahoma. No new Certificate of Airworthiness issued on its return to the USA and Re gistration cancelled by the FAA on January 3rd 2011. Fate not known, but it=99s always possible I suppose that it was nev er physically returned and remained in Mexico. N6207B, Model 680 s/n 680-607-240 Was bought by H Swift Aircraft Sales, of Elkton, Florida on April 29th 198 2 and Registered July 14th 1982. Following a new Application for Registration, was then Registered on June 13th 2006 to Harold O Swift Jr (d/b/a H Swift Aircraft Sales), 8835 Hasti ngs Boulevard, Hastings, Florida. Fate not known. N47RR, Model 680FLP s/n 1477-5, formerly N18WT, N40CP, N180E, N180VW, N873 DN, N873D, N6322U Was modified to a Mr RPM Turbo 800 in February 1974 as N40CP. As N47RR it was sold in March 2003 and Registered on May 13th 2003 to Hurl ey Aircraft Corp., in Titusville, Florida. Following a new Application for Registration dated June 4th 2004, it was then Registered to Hurley Aircraft Corp., 439 Grand Avenue, Bigfork, Mont ana. In August 2004, it was repaired following the collapse of the r/h main gea r after the hydraulic lines being connected backwards. Some of you may recall this one was the subject of a query on the =98chatlist=99 some years ago, regarding a strange venture-like devi ce on the r/h lower forward fuselage. I have today found this 680FLP being advertised for sale on the website at www.aviatorsale.com/aix4817/ I have emailed Ralph Hurley from an email address on this website, but no reply has been received yet. He seems to be domiciled at 1600 West Highway 76, Branson, Missouri but I have no idea how recent this advert is. I also have a photo of this 680FLP, taken at Cleburne, Texas as recently as January 2009 and it looks to be in pretty good shape. Any help or leads will be very much appreciated. Best Regards, Barry ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: I think you'll appreciate this...
Date: Jan 11, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgkxiqKj0nU <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgkxiqKj0nU&feature=player_embedded> &feature=player_embedded Nico van Niekerk President & CEO Nicsysco Inc PO Box 4221 Thousand Oaks, CA 91359-1221 www.nicsysco.com <http://www.nicsysco.com/> (818) 574-7146 (Direct) (818) 917-7872 (Mobile) (818) 936-9700 (Fax) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Victor C. Rupert" <V-Man@V-Man.net>
Subject: Re: I think you'll appreciate this...
Date: Jan 12, 2011
Very touching... Get choked up when I hear stuff like that. I'm glad I'm a v iolinist for a living, I could never make it through songs like that. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 11, 2011, at 10:31 PM, "cybersuperstore" w rote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgkxiqKj0nU&feature=player_embedded > > Nico van Niekerk > President & CEO > Nicsysco Inc > PO Box 4221 > Thousand Oaks, CA 91359-1221 > www.nicsysco.com > (818) 574-7146 (Direct) > (818) 917-7872 (Mobile) > (818) 936-9700 (Fax) > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Victor C. Rupert" <V-Man@V-Man.net>
Subject: Re: I think you'll appreciate this...
Date: Jan 12, 2011
Singing that is! Sent from my iPhone On Jan 11, 2011, at 10:31 PM, "cybersuperstore" w rote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgkxiqKj0nU&feature=player_embedded > > Nico van Niekerk > President & CEO > Nicsysco Inc > PO Box 4221 > Thousand Oaks, CA 91359-1221 > www.nicsysco.com > (818) 574-7146 (Direct) > (818) 917-7872 (Mobile) > (818) 936-9700 (Fax) > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Subject: Fwd: Sad News
Date: Jan 12, 2011
It is with sad news to report that Harry Merritt has taken his last flight on wings of angles. I have know him for many years in the aviation fuel business and with Aero Commanders. Tylor Hall Begin forwarded message: > From: JW <wyat2891(at)bellsouth.net> > Date: January 12, 2011 4:32:18 PM MST > To: TomFisher 680FLP-800 Canada , Tylor Hall , Tylor Hall , "Kristie Commander Parts CA." , wayne > Subject: Sad News > > I was just informed that Harry Merritt passed away in Titusville FL at 10:am this morning > > Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2011
From: <avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: I think you'll appreciate this...
To All the Members of Commander-List: It is my sad duty to inform everyone that Harry Merritt of Titusville, FL passed away at 10 AM. At the beginning of last month, Harry asked me to keep up with his emails as he wasn't able to do it. This will be one of the last emails to go out from the avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com account as it will be discontinued in the very near future. Harry was one of the most knowledgable people I have ever met when it came to his beloved Twin Commanders, anything related to the fuel industry and aviation in general. He will be sorely missed by many. -Frank Brandt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: I think you'll appreciate this...
Date: Jan 12, 2011
Commanderland; Harry used to own my 560E, and up dated the radios and put Jimbob's STC for the props on it. I will miss "Crazy Harry", enjoyed talking to him several times. Don -----Original Message----- From: avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:41 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: I think you'll appreciate this... To All the Members of Commander-List: It is my sad duty to inform everyone that Harry Merritt of Titusville, FL passed away at 10 AM. At the beginning of last month, Harry asked me to keep up with his emails as he wasn't able to do it. This will be one of the last emails to go out from the avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com account as it will be discontinued in the very near future. Harry was one of the most knowledgable people I have ever met when it came to his beloved Twin Commanders, anything related to the fuel industry and aviation in general. He will be sorely missed by many. -Frank Brandt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: I think you'll appreciate this...
Date: Jan 13, 2011
Sad news about Harry. Was a big help with bits and pieces when I was trying to get 747H back in the air. Seemed to have an inexhaustible supply of parts. Hope someone picks up and continues the business. Craig >From my iPhone 4! On Jan 13, 2011, at 10:52 AM, "dongirod" wrote: > > Commanderland; > > Harry used to own my 560E, and up dated the radios and put Jimbob's STC for the props on it. > > I will miss "Crazy Harry", enjoyed talking to him several times. > > Don > > -----Original Message----- From: avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:41 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: I think you'll appreciate this... > > > To All the Members of Commander-List: > > It is my sad duty to inform everyone that Harry Merritt of Titusville, FL passed away at 10 AM. At the beginning of last month, Harry asked me to keep up with his emails as he wasn't able to do it. This will be one of the last emails to go out from the avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com account as it will be discontinued in the very near future. > > > Harry was one of the most knowledgable people I have ever met when it came to his beloved Twin Commanders, anything related to the fuel industry and aviation in general. > > He will be sorely missed by many. > > -Frank Brandt > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lloyd silverman" <LLOYDSSS11(at)MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: I think you'll appreciate this...
Date: Jan 12, 2011
TO MEMBERS OF THE COMMANDER LIST. HARRY WOULD HELP ANYONE ASKING ABOUT COMMANDER PROBLEMS,AND COULD LOCATE ANY OTHERWISE UNOBTAINABLE COMMANDER PART. HIS HELP & SENSE OF HUMOR WILL BE MISSED. ----- Original Message ----- From: avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com<mailto:avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:41 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: I think you'll appreciate this... > To All the Members of Commander-List: It is my sad duty to inform everyone that Harry Merritt of Titusville, FL passed away at 10 AM. At the beginning of last month, Harry asked me to keep up with his emails as he wasn't able to do it. This will be one of the last emails to go out from the avtectwo(at)cfl.rr.com account as it will be discontinued in the very near future. Harry was one of the most knowledgable people I have ever met when it came to his beloved Twin Commanders, anything related to the fuel industry and aviation in general. He will be sorely missed by many. -Frank Brandt http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List m/Navigator?Commander-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Fwd: Sad News
Date: Jan 12, 2011
Our condolences to his family. I remember seeing Harry's emails since very early on. On wings of angels. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 4:00 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fwd: Sad News It is with sad news to report that Harry Merritt has taken his last flight on wings of angles. I have know him for many years in the aviation fuel business and with Aero Commanders. Tylor Hall Begin forwarded message: From: JW <wyat2891(at)bellsouth.net> Date: January 12, 2011 4:32:18 PM MST , Tylor Hall , "Kristie Commander Parts CA." , wayne Subject: Sad News I was just informed that Harry Merritt passed away in Titusville FL at 10:am this morning Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2011
Subject: Re: Fwd: Sad News
From: Russell Legg <rlegg(at)austarnet.com.au>
Hi Tylor, Thanks for letting us know. Folks will remember Harry coming along to the Flyin at Dayton in 2003. Our condolences and best wishes to his family. Cheers Russell On 13/1/11 2:04 PM, "cybersuperstore" wrote: > Our condolences to his family. I remember seeing Harry's emails since very > early on. > On wings of angels. > Nico > > > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 4:00 PM > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Commander-List: Fwd: Sad News > > It is with sad news to report that Harry Merritt has taken his last flight on > wings of angles. > I have know him for many years in the aviation fuel business and with Aero > Commanders. > Tylor Hall > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> >> From: JW <wyat2891(at)bellsouth.net> >> >> Date: January 12, 2011 4:32:18 PM MST >> >> To: TomFisher 680FLP-800 Canada , Tylor Hall >> , Tylor Hall , "Kristie >> Commander Parts CA." , wayne >> >> Subject: Sad News >> >> >> >> >> I was just informed that Harry Merritt passed away in Titusville FL at 10:am >> this morning >> >> >> >> Paul > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com>
Subject: Fwd: Sad News
Date: Jan 12, 2011
I remember meeting Harry at Dayton in '03. He was definitely a character. Thanks to Morris, I feel like I knew Harry by proxy even before then. Yet another great loss to the Commander community. Godspeed, Harry. /J From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Legg Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fwd: Sad News Hi Tylor, Thanks for letting us know. Folks will remember Harry coming along to the Flyin at Dayton in 2003. Our condolences and best wishes to his family. Cheers Russell On 13/1/11 2:04 PM, "cybersuperstore" wrote: Our condolences to his family. I remember seeing Harry's emails since very early on. On wings of angels. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 4:00 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fwd: Sad News It is with sad news to report that Harry Merritt has taken his last flight on wings of angles. I have know him for many years in the aviation fuel business and with Aero Commanders. Tylor Hall Begin forwarded message: From: JW <wyat2891(at)bellsouth.net> Date: January 12, 2011 4:32:18 PM MST , Tylor Hall , "Kristie Commander Parts CA." , wayne Subject: Sad News I was just informed that Harry Merritt passed away in Titusville FL at 10:am this morning Paul ist Email Forum - r-List">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - matronics.com ;- List Contribution Web Site - ; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Steven_N=FA=F1ez?= <aerocommander(at)illation.com.sg>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Sad News
Date: Jan 13, 2011
Wow, this is sad. Although not flying commanders, I'm still hoping, one day. I remember Harry on the list, although I didn't know that he lived in Titusville, FL. I grew up in Titusville, and learned to fly at Dunn Airpark in the 1970's. Come to think of it, there was a Commander always parked on the ramp; wonder if it was his? Anyway, I've still got lot's of friends in t-ville, so if there is some great stash of Commander parts, would be happy to organise storage via my connections down there. - Steve On 13/01/2011, at 8:00 AM, Tylor Hall wrote: > It is with sad news to report that Harry Merritt has taken his last flight on wings of angles. > I have know him for many years in the aviation fuel business and with Aero Commanders. > Tylor Hall > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: JW <wyat2891(at)bellsouth.net> >> Date: January 12, 2011 4:32:18 PM MST >> To: TomFisher 680FLP-800 Canada , Tylor Hall , Tylor Hall , "Kristie Commander Parts CA." , wayne >> Subject: Sad News >> >> I was just informed that Harry Merritt passed away in Titusville FL at 10:am this morning >> >> Paul -- 3 Raffles Place #07-01 Bharat Building Singapore 048617 Mobile: +65 9679 8360 http://illation.com.sg/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 13, 2011
Subject: Re: Fwd: Sad News
I knew Harry and have bought parts from him from time to time . He is also a good friend of Richard Cam . Did Harry crash or died of other causes . Thanks Gil In a message dated 1/13/2011 12:40:43 A.M. Central America Standard , aerocommander(at)illation.com.sg writes: Wow, this is sad. Although not flying commanders, I'm still hoping, one day. I remember Harry on the list, although I didn't know that he lived in Titusville, FL. I grew up in Titusville, and learned to fly at Dunn Airpark in the 1970's. Come to think of it, there was a Commander always parked on the ramp; wonder if it was his? Anyway, I've still got lot's of friends in t-ville, so if there is some great stash of Commander parts, would be happy to organise storage via my connections down there. - Steve On 13/01/2011, at 8:00 AM, Tylor Hall wrote: It is with sad news to report that Harry Merritt has taken his last flight on wings of angles. I have know him for many years in the aviation fuel business and with Aero Commanders. Tylor Hall Begin forwarded message: From: JW <_wyat2891(at)bellsouth.net_ (mailto:wyat2891(at)bellsouth.net) > Date: January 12, 2011 4:32:18 PM MST (mailto:tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca) >, Tylor Hall <_tylorh(at)firstfueling.com_ (mailto:tylorh(at)firstfueling.com) >, Tylor Hall <_tylorhall(at)mac.com_ (mailto:tylorhall(at)mac.com) >, "Kristie Commander Parts CA." <_kstelle(at)sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:kstelle(at)sbcglobal.net) >, wayne <_sales(at)planexhaust.net_ (mailto:sales(at)planexhaust.net) > Subject: Sad News I was just informed that Harry Merritt passed away in Titusville FL at 10:am this morning Paul -- 3 Raffles Place #07-01 Bharat Building Singapore 048617 Mobile: +65 9679 8360 _http://illation.com.sg/_ (http://illation.com.sg/) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd: Sad News
Date: Jan 13, 2011
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
I too will miss Harry. I knew him for many years. I bought my current Co mmander, N222JS from Harry. He had tons of' "in the field knowledge" abo ut all Commanders. He loved Commanders as if they were his children. I remember when I picked triple 2 up in Georgia, Harry meet me. When the airplane was fueled for the first in many years, fuel ran out everywhere! ! I panicked, but Harry sat calmly in the FBO office with a cup of coffee in his hand and sain just wait, Sure enough, after about 20 minutes, all the leaks stopped as the cork gaskets came back to life. I have owned he r for more than 10 years, and she never leaked again, Good by Harry. jb -----Original Message----- From: Steven N=C3=BA=C3=B1ez <aerocommander(at)illation.com.sg> Sent: Wed, Jan 12, 2011 10:38 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fwd: Sad News Wow, this is sad. Although not flying commanders, I'm still hoping, one day. I remember Harr y on he list, although I didn't know that he lived in Titusville, FL. I grew up in itusville, and learned to fly at Dunn Airpark in the 1970's. Come to think of t, there was a Commander always parked on the ramp; wonder if it was his? Anyway, I've still got lot's of friends in t-ville, so if there is some gr eat tash of Commander parts, would be happy to organise storage via my connect ions own there. - Steve On 13/01/2011, at 8:00 AM, Tylor Hall wrote: > It is with sad news to report that Harry Merritt has taken his last flig ht on ings of angles. I have know him for many years in the aviation fuel business and with Aer o ommanders. Tylor Hall Begin forwarded message: > From: JW <wyat2891(at)bellsouth.net> > Date: January 12, 2011 4:32:18 PM MST > To: TomFisher 680FLP-800 Canada , Tylor Ha ll tylorh(at)firstfueling.com>, Tylor Hall , "Kristie Command er arts CA." , wayne > Subject: Sad News > > I was just informed that Harry Merritt passed away in Titusville FL at 10:am his morning > > Paul -- Raffles Place 07-01 Bharat Building ingapore 048617 Mobile: +65 9679 8360 ttp://illation.com.sg/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 13, 2011
Subject: Re: Removal of Main Gear Doors
Try Eagle Creek, I think it is their STC. Personally I think it is a bad idea to remove the doors. It slows the aircraft (nearly 10 knots), it is noisier in the cabin, it allows a lot of exhaust residue to collect in the wheel well. I have never found, in my 39 years of flying Turbo Commanders, that the maintenance is that be of a deal. A properly maintained aircraft will never have a problem. It has always amazed me that people will spend $60K+ to install props that will increase the speed 10 knots and then spend money to slow the aircraft down by taking the gear doors off!!!! Makes no sense to me. About Harry, I will miss him, he was a friend of many years and he like I loved the old ones. Have a smooth trip west Harry. Bill Leff In a message dated 1/10/2011 11:12:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hi Stan, Grateful thanks, and also to Deneal & Moe. Very Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Sent: 10 January 2011 05:56 Subject: RE: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors Hi Barry, I know this isn't an answer to either of your questions, but I've done some investigating into these clamshell doors, and here's what I've found out, thanks to Morris: The advantage to having the clamshell doors is about a 5 knot gain in cruise speed. The disadvantage is that the increased complexity of the sequencing to open and close the clamshells at just the right time increases gear operating times from the six-second range to about 20 seconds. There's also more chance of something not sequencing correctly, the doors being out of adjustment, etc. All things considered, I'd rather *not* have them. More to your original question: I found an ad for a 690B for sale, and it listed several STCs that had been done (including the clamshell door removal, which it identified as SA8214SW). I found only one of the four STCs on the FAA that was both present and correct: the one for replacement of the exhaust ejectors. So you may have the right info, and it's just the FAA database that's a problem. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:20 AM Subject: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Does anybody know the STC No. that allows the removal of the main gear aft wheel well doors on Turbo Commanders? My database reflects that 690B s/n 11522 was used as N691WM for obtaining the STC in February 1992 and the STC subsequently issued was No. SA8214SW. However, a suitable search of the FAA's website for STC's fails to find this. Also, does anybody know the weight saving that results? Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 13, 2011
Subject: Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report
In a message dated 12/8/2010 6:47:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: "Peter Bichier" I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary report. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that a case where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much "hard hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must even in a Commander? http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1 NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander 500B, N500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon. The private pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained substantial damage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight rules (VFR) flight, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding California, at an as of yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello, Idaho. The accident took place in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and rain were reported. No flight plan had been filed, but the pilot was receiving radar flight following from Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC). According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead, but could not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was falling. The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first, but then the sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that they had heard from an "airplane doing aerobatics." Soon thereafter, the airplane was seen descending steeply out of the clouds with about one-third of the left wing missing. The airplane impacted the terrain in a near vertical attitude. The portion of the left wing that had separated was located about one-half mile from the rest of the wreckage. The airplane has been recovered, and will undergo further inspection and analysis. -------- 560 Dreamer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322703#322703 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Removal of Main Gear Doors
Date: Jan 14, 2011
Thanks Bill! From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: 14 January 2011 04:47 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors Try Eagle Creek, I think it is their STC. Personally I think it is a bad idea to remove the doors. It slows the aircraft (nearly 10 knots), it is noisier in the cabin, it allows a lot of exhaust residue to collect in the wheel well. I have never found, in my 39 years of flying Turbo Commanders, that the maintenance is that be of a deal. A properly maintained aircraft will never have a problem. It has always amazed me that people will spend $60K+ to install props that will increase the speed 10 knots and then spend money to slow the aircraft down by taking the gear doors off!!!! Makes no sense to me. About Harry, I will miss him, he was a friend of many years and he like I loved the old ones. Have a smooth trip west Harry. Bill Leff In a message dated 1/10/2011 11:12:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hi Stan, Grateful thanks, and also to Deneal & Moe. Very Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Sent: 10 January 2011 05:56 Subject: RE: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors Hi Barry, I know this isn't an answer to either of your questions, but I've done some investigating into these clamshell doors, and here's what I've found out, thanks to Morris: The advantage to having the clamshell doors is about a 5 knot gain in cruise speed. The disadvantage is that the increased complexity of the sequencing to open and close the clamshells at just the right time increases gear operating times from the six-second range to about 20 seconds. There's also more chance of something not sequencing correctly, the doors being out of adjustment, etc. All things considered, I'd rather *not* have them. More to your original question: I found an ad for a 690B for sale, and it listed several STCs that had been done (including the clamshell door removal, which it identified as SA8214SW). I found only one of the four STCs on the FAA that was both present and correct: the one for replacement of the exhaust ejectors. So you may have the right info, and it's just the FAA database that's a problem. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:20 AM Subject: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Does anybody know the STC No. that allows the removal of the main gear aft wheel well doors on Turbo Commanders? My database reflects that 690B s/n 11522 was used as N691WM for obtaining the STC in February 1992 and the STC subsequently issued was No. SA8214SW. However, a suitable search of the FAA's website for STC's fails to find this. Also, does anybody know the weight saving that results? Best Regards, Barry se the ies ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p; ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nick Martin" <nick(at)container.com>
Subject: Removal of Main Gear Doors
Date: Jan 14, 2011
I agree with Bill ..The gear doors are not a problem as long as you keep the actuators clean (wiped down on every preflight)..Nick ,N674NM _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors Try Eagle Creek, I think it is their STC. Personally I think it is a bad idea to remove the doors. It slows the aircraft (nearly 10 knots), it is noisier in the cabin, it allows a lot of exhaust residue to collect in the wheel well. I have never found, in my 39 years of flying Turbo Commanders, that the maintenance is that be of a deal. A properly maintained aircraft will never have a problem. It has always amazed me that people will spend $60K+ to install props that will increase the speed 10 knots and then spend money to slow the aircraft down by taking the gear doors off!!!! Makes no sense to me. About Harry, I will miss him, he was a friend of many years and he like I loved the old ones. Have a smooth trip west Harry. Bill Leff In a message dated 1/10/2011 11:12:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hi Stan, Grateful thanks, and also to Deneal & Moe. Very Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Sent: 10 January 2011 05:56 Subject: RE: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors Hi Barry, I know this isn't an answer to either of your questions, but I've done some investigating into these clamshell doors, and here's what I've found out, thanks to Morris: The advantage to having the clamshell doors is about a 5 knot gain in cruise speed. The disadvantage is that the increased complexity of the sequencing to open and close the clamshells at just the right time increases gear operating times from the six-second range to about 20 seconds. There's also more chance of something not sequencing correctly, the doors being out of adjustment, etc. All things considered, I'd rather *not* have them. More to your original question: I found an ad for a 690B for sale, and it listed several STCs that had been done (including the clamshell door removal, which it identified as SA8214SW). I found only one of the four STCs on the FAA that was both present and correct: the one for replacement of the exhaust ejectors. So you may have the right info, and it's just the FAA database that's a problem. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 11:20 AM Subject: Commander-List: Removal of Main Gear Doors --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Does anybody know the STC No. that allows the removal of the main gear aft wheel well doors on Turbo Commanders? My database reflects that 690B s/n 11522 was used as N691WM for obtaining the STC in February 1992 and the STC subsequently issued was No. SA8214SW. However, a suitable search of the FAA's website for STC's fails to find this. Also, does anybody know the weight saving that results? Best Regards, Barry se the ies ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p; ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Aero Commander Facebook Page video
Date: Jan 16, 2011
I am sure most of you have seen this before but this is just so you know it's on our Facebook page, too. http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/video/video.php?v=10150126724170348 <http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/video/video.php?v=10150126724170348&oid =144424762275884&comments> &oid=144424762275884&comments Nico van Niekerk President & CEO Nicsysco Inc PO Box 4221 Thousand Oaks, CA 91359-1221 www.nicsysco.com <http://www.nicsysco.com/> (818) 574-7146 (Direct) (818) 917-7872 (Mobile) (818) 936-9700 (Fax) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: NICE FLIGHT
Date: Jan 17, 2011
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI KIDS...I had a really nice flight in a 500B with the 350HP Merlin conve rsion. Morris Kernick called and needed this airplane relocated from his shop in Stockton to the Oklahoma City area. So yesterday morning, I hopp ed a "crowd killer" to CA and then jumped in N6258X and headed east. The airplane really performs well!! Take off is good but the real fun comes in the climb! I had to file IFR to get out of the valley fog. The airpl ane easily climbed 2000 fpm with no cooling issues. It was still climbing over 1000FPM going through 13,000. Admittedly, I was below gross but the airplane was plum full of gas (241 gal) and had lots of performance left. I flew to Durango (DUR) in about 3.1 hours, around 215kts including the climb. Fueled, and pressed on at night arriving 2.2 hours later and abou t 9pm. Averaged about 213 kts including two climbs and circling the fiel d etc. Purdy cool machine. landed on a 3000 foot strip and met the new owners, soon to be TCFG members. Great guys. Fun to fly at night in a really capable airplane. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: NICE FLIGHT
Date: Jan 16, 2011
That configuration has always been my dream outfit. The perfect fit between power and economy. Nice sharing it with us. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 10:05 PM Subject: Commander-List: NICE FLIGHT HI KIDS...I had a really nice flight in a 500B with the 350HP Merlin conversion. Morris Kernick called and needed this airplane relocated from his shop in Stockton to the Oklahoma City area. So yesterday morning, I hopped a "crowd killer" to CA and then jumped in N6258X and headed east. The airplane really performs well!! Take off is good but the real fun comes in the climb! I had to file IFR to get out of the valley fog. The airplane easily climbed 2000 fpm with no cooling issues. It was still climbing over 1000FPM going through 13,000. Admittedly, I was below gross but the airplane was plum full of gas (241 gal) and had lots of performance left. I flew to Durango (DUR) in about 3.1 hours, around 215kts including the climb. Fueled, and pressed on at night arriving 2.2 hours later and about 9pm. Averaged about 213 kts including two climbs and circling the field etc. Purdy cool machine. landed on a 3000 foot strip and met the new owners, soon to be TCFG members. Great guys. Fun to fly at night in a really capable airplane. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: Aero Commander Facebook Page video
Date: Jan 17, 2011
And of course, it features "our very own" Bill Leff ! From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cybersuperstore Sent: 17 January 2011 02:56 Subject: Commander-List: Aero Commander Facebook Page video I am sure most of you have seen this before but this is just so you know it's on our Facebook page, too. http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/video/video.php?v=10150126724170348 <http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/video/video.php?v=10150126724170348&oid =144424762275884&comments> &oid=144424762275884&comments Nico van Niekerk President & CEO Nicsysco Inc PO Box 4221 Thousand Oaks, CA 91359-1221 www.nicsysco.com <http://www.nicsysco.com/> (818) 574-7146 (Direct) (818) 917-7872 (Mobile) (818) 936-9700 (Fax) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: NICE FLIGHT
Date: Jan 17, 2011
Hi JimBob, I had a ride in N6258X, from Nashville to Oklahoma City after the Fly-In one year. I hadn't ridden in many Commanders at that time, but I thought how quiet it was. What did you think? What strip did you land on? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: 17 January 2011 06:05 Subject: Commander-List: NICE FLIGHT HI KIDS...I had a really nice flight in a 500B with the 350HP Merlin conversion. Morris Kernick called and needed this airplane relocated from his shop in Stockton to the Oklahoma City area. So yesterday morning, I hopped a "crowd killer" to CA and then jumped in N6258X and headed east. The airplane really performs well!! Take off is good but the real fun comes in the climb! I had to file IFR to get out of the valley fog. The airplane easily climbed 2000 fpm with no cooling issues. It was still climbing over 1000FPM going through 13,000. Admittedly, I was below gross but the airplane was plum full of gas (241 gal) and had lots of performance left. I flew to Durango (DUR) in about 3.1 hours, around 215kts including the climb. Fueled, and pressed on at night arriving 2.2 hours later and about 9pm. Averaged about 213 kts including two climbs and circling the field etc. Purdy cool machine. landed on a 3000 foot strip and met the new owners, soon to be TCFG members. Great guys. Fun to fly at night in a really capable airplane. jb ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
Date: Jan 17, 2011
From: yourtcfg(at)aol.com
HI BARRY.It was very quite inside. I wore my Lightspeed headsets and was listening to Conway Twitty so it didn't really matter (Who elese would yo u listed to going to OK?????????) I really liked the airplane. jb (PS landed at Okeen OK, (O65) 3000 feet long, great little airport, mostly AG operations. jb -----Original Message----- From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Sent: Mon, Jan 17, 2011 5:08 am Subject: RE: Commander-List: NICE FLIGHT Hi JimBob, I had a ride in N6258X, from Nashville to Oklahoma City after the Fly-In one year. I hadn=99t ridden in many Commanders at that time, but I thought how quiet it was. What did you think? What strip did you land on? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com Sent: 17 January 2011 06:05 Subject: Commander-List: NICE FLIGHT HI KIDS...I had a really nice flight in a 500B with the 350HP Merlin conve rsion. Morris Kernick called and needed this airplane relocated from his shop in Stockton to the Oklahoma City area. So yesterday morning, I hopp ed a "crowd killer" to CA and then jumped in N6258X and headed east. The airplane really performs well!! Take off is good but the real fun comes in the climb! I had to file IFR to get out of the valley fog. The airpl ane easily climbed 2000 fpm with no cooling issues. It was still climbing over 1000FPM going through 13,000. Admittedly, I was below gross but the airplane was plum full of gas (241 gal) and had lots of performance left. I flew to Durango (DUR) in about 3.1 hours, around 215kts including the climb. Fueled, and pressed on at night arriving 2.2 hours later and abou t 9pm. Averaged about 213 kts including two climbs and circling the fiel d etc. Purdy cool machine. landed on a 3000 foot strip and met the new owners, soon to be TCFG members. Great guys. Fun to fly at night in a really capable airplane. jb ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: It's worth watching this video
Date: Jan 17, 2011
Watch it and try to pause at every Chinese caption in the video with English translations. It's an eye opener. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9rvBLxGs-8 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9rvBLxGs-8&feature=player_embedded> &feature=player_embedded Nico van Niekerk ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Jan 18, 2011
In pictures online it seems to have tiny 4 blade props - does it still have that? -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327447#327447 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions.
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Jan 18, 2011
So, pre-buy with Morris is done and showing no real surprises. Pretty good shape for her age. She will need a bit of TLC - some of it I will have to take care of straight out of the gate, some can wait until the annual in June and some can wait indefinitely. Main things need taking care of, I think: - Three brake pads need replacing. The seller has some, but he said they might be "homemade" by the previous owner, so not spec. I didn't get to see them. - There's also a small hydraulic leak in the right gear lock down mechanism. Probably just a seal. - Ailerons are over tightened and have the wrong bolts. This I think should be addressed swiftly in case they start chafing or causing other damages. - Fuel, hydraulic and vacuum hoses dry and brittle in engine compartments. Needs swift fix. - Pushrod tube seals leaking oil. My aim is to fly her back to California beginning of Feb. Morris was a huge help and after he flew back, I got to spend some time with the machine. I'm very excited and she seems like a lovely, snubnosed friendly plane. I'm looking forward to many years of flying with her. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327448#327448 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/adamscommander_178.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Bichier <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
Subject: NICE FLIGHT
Date: Jan 18, 2011
Hey Adam, That's correct, she still has 4 blades and that is why she is so quiet... It was great to see your 520, very special plane no doubt, yeahp, looks like you got yourself a classic! Well you know where I am, and if you need any assistance in making anything happen, you know that a Commander lover is not too far from your bird so just let me know. Also, when you guys are getting close to get ready for the ferry, PLEASE let me know, I'd love to hear those GO-435s come to life plus it looks like a fun airport. Take care and GOOD LUCK! Peter On Jan 18, 2011, at 1:11 PM, stratobee wrote: > > > In pictures online it seems to have tiny 4 blade props - does it > still have that? > > -------- > Adam > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2011
From: "sr14572(at)yahoo.com" <sr14572(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Fw: Great Quote This guy is my hero for 2011
I hope you guys enjoy this=0A=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A>-=0A>Great Quote =0A>>=0A>>---=0A>>--=0A>>You-Gotta- love-this Guy !!=0A>> =0A>>DON CHERRY, of-hockey night in- Canada -,-was asked on a local live radio talk =0A>>show just what he thought about the allegations of to rture of suspected- =0A>>terrorists.- His reply prompted his ejection f rom the studio, but to thunderous =0A>>applause from the audience.=0A>>=0A> >--------------- HIS- STATEMENT:=0A>>=0A>>" If hooking up one-raghead-terrorist prisoner's testicles to a car batte ry to =0A>>get the truth out of the lying little camel-shagger-will sav e just one Canadian =0A>>life, then I have only three things to say:-=0A> >=0A>>Red is positive, black is negative, and make sure his nuts are wet." =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
Date: Jan 18, 2011
Nice meeting you too and thanks for sharing your Commander memories from back in the days. I will make sure I give you a heads up before we come collect her. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327469#327469 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <nick(at)container.com>
Subject: Garrett TPE 331 - 10 Bendix fuel controller
Date: Jan 19, 2011
Dear Commander Owners, The Bendix fuel controller malfunctioned on my 690 A..Have it in the service center and they tell me it needs a rebuild . Does anyone have a new or rebuilt they want to sell? Or is there a update program to convert to Woodward fuel controllers ? apprecitate your input ..Nick or call my cell 310 386 8333 -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Commander-List Digest Server Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:56 PM Subject: Commander-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/18/11 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-01-18&Archive=Commander Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2011-01-18&Archive=Commander =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/18/11: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:13 AM - Re: NICE FLIGHT (stratobee) 2. 10:38 AM - Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. (stratobee) 3. 11:37 AM - NICE FLIGHT (Peter Bichier) 4. 11:53 AM - Fw: Great Quote This guy is my hero for 2011 (sr14572(at)yahoo.com) 5. 02:08 PM - Re: NICE FLIGHT (stratobee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Subject: Commander-List: Re: NICE FLIGHT From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> In pictures online it seems to have tiny 4 blade props - does it still have that? -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327447#327447 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander 520 from 1953 questions. From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> So, pre-buy with Morris is done and showing no real surprises. Pretty good shape for her age. She will need a bit of TLC - some of it I will have to take care of straight out of the gate, some can wait until the annual in June and some can wait indefinitely. Main things need taking care of, I think: - Three brake pads need replacing. The seller has some, but he said they might be "homemade" by the previous owner, so not spec. I didn't get to see them. - There's also a small hydraulic leak in the right gear lock down mechanism. Probably just a seal. - Ailerons are over tightened and have the wrong bolts. This I think should be addressed swiftly in case they start chafing or causing other damages. - Fuel, hydraulic and vacuum hoses dry and brittle in engine compartments. Needs swift fix. - Pushrod tube seals leaking oil. My aim is to fly her back to California beginning of Feb. Morris was a huge help and after he flew back, I got to spend some time with the machine. I'm very excited and she seems like a lovely, snubnosed friendly plane. I'm looking forward to many years of flying with her. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327448#327448 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/adamscommander_178.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ From: Peter Bichier <pbichie(at)UTNet.UToledo.Edu> Subject: Commander-List: NICE FLIGHT Hey Adam, That's correct, she still has 4 blades and that is why she is so quiet... It was great to see your 520, very special plane no doubt, yeahp, looks like you got yourself a classic! Well you know where I am, and if you need any assistance in making anything happen, you know that a Commander lover is not too far from your bird so just let me know. Also, when you guys are getting close to get ready for the ferry, PLEASE let me know, I'd love to hear those GO-435s come to life plus it looks like a fun airport. Take care and GOOD LUCK! Peter On Jan 18, 2011, at 1:11 PM, stratobee wrote: > > > In pictures online it seems to have tiny 4 blade props - does it still > have that? > > -------- > Adam > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ From: "sr14572(at)yahoo.com" <sr14572(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Commander-List: Fw: Great Quote This guy is my hero for 2011 I hope you guys enjoy this=0A=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A>-=0A>Great Quote =0A>>=0A>>---=0A>>--=0A>>You-Gotta- love-this Guy !!=0A>> =0A>>DON CHERRY, of-hockey night in- Canada -,-was asked on a local live radio talk =0A>>show just what he thought about the allegations of to rture of suspected- =0A>>terrorists.- His reply prompted his ejection f rom the studio, but to thunderous =0A>>applause from the audience.=0A>>=0A> >--------------- HIS- STATEMENT:=0A>>=0A>>" If hooking up one-raghead-terrorist prisoner's testicles to a car batte ry to =0A>>get the truth out of the lying little camel-shagger-will sav e just one Canadian =0A>>life, then I have only three things to say:-=0A> >=0A>>Red is positive, black is negative, and make sure his nuts are wet." =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Subject: Commander-List: Re: NICE FLIGHT From: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> Nice meeting you too and thanks for sharing your Commander memories from back in the days. I will make sure I give you a heads up before we come collect her. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327469#327469 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: NICE FLIGHT
Date: Jan 19, 2011
Hi Peter, Is there a difference in efficiency with the 4-blade props? I remember reading somewhere that the Mr. RPM 800 conversions are hampered by the props not being able to deliver all the power, which is a shame, but that aside for now. If the 4-blade configuration is quieter (because of the shorter blades?) and there is no penalty in performace, why would one not go that route on all models? Thanks Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Bichier Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:35 AM Subject: Commander-List: NICE FLIGHT --> Hey Adam, That's correct, she still has 4 blades and that is why she is so quiet... It was great to see your 520, very special plane no doubt, yeahp, looks like you got yourself a classic! Well you know where I am, and if you need any assistance in making anything happen, you know that a Commander lover is not too far from your bird so just let me know. Also, when you guys are getting close to get ready for the ferry, PLEASE let me know, I'd love to hear those GO-435s come to life plus it looks like a fun airport. Take care and GOOD LUCK! Peter On Jan 18, 2011, at 1:11 PM, stratobee wrote: > > > In pictures online it seems to have tiny 4 blade props - does it still > have that? > > -------- > Adam > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 19, 2011
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
Good Afternoon Nico, Obviously, I have no knowledge at all when it comes to Aero Commanders, but I do have a solitary experience with a four blade prop on a general aviation aircraft. The following is just my uninformed opinion. Back in '96, I had Colemill install an IO-550-B and a four blade Q-Tip Hartzell on my V35B Bonanza. It was a disaster! The initial acceleration was abominable and the climb was poor. Top speed was reasonable for the power. The good news is that it was quiet! The interior cabin noise did seem lower, but I never measured it with any instrumentation. The biggest comments came from my neighbors, They said my airplane was now the quietest at our airfield. When I made a fly by a friend's strip he said he could not hear me until I was right over the field and he heard the engine noise before he could hear the propellor. His description was that I just whooshed by. After about 400 hundred hours, I took off the four blade and installed a three blade McCauley 406. The difference was startling. Takeoff became impressive and climb was much better than it had been with the 520 and way better than with the four blade. I wish I could have tried a two blade as I really think that would have the best takeoff and climb performance possible with that engine on that airframe. I tried to find a two blade that would work. Both Hartzell and McCauley told me that a two blade should work very well and could easily absorb the power of the IO-550-B in the diameter that would fit, but that I was the only person who had ever asked about a two blade for that combination. The market was too small to bother with an approval. I have many years flying four blade props on the DC-7. They did the job we needed. We were told the airplane would have been more efficient if it could have been fitted with three blade props. but the ground clearance requirements could not be met with three blades long enough to absorb the power. As you are probably well aware, the Super Connie using the same engines did have sufficient ground clearance to swing a three blade and that is what Lockheed chose to use. Sooo! ---- The conclusion I have reached is that if noise is the most important consideration, the lower tip speed of the small diameter four blade is worth the loss in performance. If performance is the goal, use the fewest number of blades that will absorb the power in the space allotted. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 1/19/2011 11:36:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, nico(at)cybersuperstore.com writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: "cybersuperstore" Hi Peter, Is there a difference in efficiency with the 4-blade props? I remember reading somewhere that the Mr. RPM 800 conversions are hampered by the props not being able to deliver all the power, which is a shame, but that aside for now. If the 4-blade configuration is quieter (because of the shorter blades?) and there is no penalty in performace, why would one not go that route on all models? Thanks Nico ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
From: "Cate Chagnot" <cchagnot(at)ultimateair.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2011
Nico, >From an engineering standpoint, the fewer the blades the more efficient the prop. Theoretically a single blade counterbalanced prop is the most efficient. I know a couple of folks that have changed from two bladed props on their 180 Skywagons to three bladed and have been disappointed with the performance. -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327676#327676 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NICE FLIGHT
From: Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2011
MT Propeller did a 5 bladed conversion for the 690 and did not get any performance improvement. I think there is a STC for the 690 from Dowty Propeller that is a wide cord 3 bladed prop that did get a performance increase. The Mr RPM conversion seems to have a low thrust issue with the prop that is approved. MT has a new STC for the Comanche 400 with the IO-720 engine. http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/stcs/pa24_1.htm In the photo on their web site, you can see the new design is wider. Tylor Hall tylorhall(at)mac.com First Fueling Systems, Inc. 100 Iron St SE Albuquerque, NM 87102 505-247-3001 505-247-3005 FAX 505-400-8373 Cell www.firstfueling.com On Jan 20, 2011, at 9:28 AM, Cate Chagnot wrote: > > Nico, > >> From an engineering standpoint, the fewer the blades the more efficient the prop. Theoretically a single blade counterbalanced prop is the most efficient. I know a couple of folks that have changed from two bladed props on their 180 Skywagons to three bladed and have been disappointed with the performance. > > -------- > Cate > > N4278S 680E > Skywagon N180PK > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327676#327676 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "dongirod" <dongirod(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue
Date: Jan 22, 2011
I got this from a friend, not sure of any of the info, but thought it might be interesting to some on the list. Don Subject: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue Here is a review written by IFALPA after they looked at the stuff that's so far come out of the QF A380 incident. As far as "Fly-by-Wire" and redundancy go it really doesn't matter how many wires you have going to an item if they are all routed thru the same area! Airbus and Rolls have some serious redesign work ahead of them. It also poses some really troubling questions that have the potential to shake up the entire system from certification authorities through regulators, through airline training departments. It also blows away the Airbus mantra that their jets are so smart that you can stuff an inexperienced crew from Nigeria in the cockpit, and as long as they can keep the wings level until the A/P is turned on, and then slavishly follow what the totally brilliant and foolproof ECAM system tells them is wrong and what to do in what order, all will be well....[Amen to this comment] Qantas A380 Uncontained Engine Failure Background On Thursday 4th November a Qantas A380, registration VH-OQA suffered an uncontained intermediate pressure turbine wheel failure of the No 2 engine at about 6000 feet on departure from Singapore. The aircraft returned for landing safely but the crew had around 54 ECAM messages to deal with and a substantial loss of systems on board the aircraft. It took about an hour to deal with all those messages. There were, and are, a number of Airworthiness Directives out on the engine for inspection; some are new and some are from previous problems. The issue appears to be oil leaking from the bearing into the Intermediate Pressure/High Pressure turbine wheel structural area causing an intense local fire that compromised the structure of the turbines. The aircraft was substantially damaged but landed safely. Systems Loss and Damage Synopsis: Investigations are ongoing and there is much speculation in the media and around the industry but the major issue for the ADO committee to consider is the secondary damage and systems loss that the aircraft suffered. A brief description follows of the known, and public, issues: =A2 The No 2 engine suffered an uncontained failure of IP rotor which separated from the engine and penetrated the wing and body fairing of the aircraft. =A2 The rotor penetrated the forward wing spar and exited the upper surface of the wing. =A2 The main electrical loom in forward section of wing was cut causing loss of engine control (thrust ok) on No 1 and no ability to shut it down with Fire Handle. =A2 The power drive unit for the leading edge devices was severed in the same location, =A2 The crew were unable to discharge any fire bottles for engine No 1 and No 2. =A2 All electrical hydraulic pumps that side were lost. =A2 A piece of rotor penetrated the body fairing and severed a wiring loom in that location. =A2 Another piece of the rotor damaged the aft fuel transfer gallery and caused leaks in the left mid and inner fuel feed tanks =93 one of which was substantial. This led to a lateral imbalance problem. =A2 The crew were unable to jettison or transfer fuel forward. This led to indications of an aft cg problem. =A2 Emergency Outer tank transfer only resulted in the right hand outer tank transferring =93 the left hand tank failed to transfer - this helped the lateral imbalance. =A2 There was damage to the fairing housing the RAT, flaps and flap track fairings. =A2 Total loss of the Green hydraulic system, =A2 ECAM indicated loss of both electrical hydraulic pumps on No 4 engine (Yellow system). =A2 Landing Gear required gravity extension. =A2 No anti skid on wing gear hence only emergency brakes; body gear braking normal =A2 Engines 1 and 4 indicating =98degraded mode=99 =93 which means no N-1 rating limit. Requires all engines to be switched to =98Alternate=99 mode with a 4% maximum thrust loss. =A2 AC bus 1&2 failed. =A2 No 2 engine electrical generator failed as a result of the engine failure =A2 The APU was started but the crew were unable to connect the APU bleed air or the generators to the bus system. =A2 No 1 air conditioning pack failed. =A2 Autothrust was not available. =A2 The satellite phone system would not work. ECAM Management: When the failure occurred something like 54 ECAM messages appeared on the screen. These set off the Master Warning and Master Caution many times; to the point of distraction of the crew. The First Office started the stop watch when the first master warning went off and from there it took the crew 50 minutes or so to clear the messages down to the Status page. Management of the ECAM was an issue with the ECAM calling for a transfer of fuel into obviously leaking tanks to cure a fuel imbalance. Forward transfer was also not possible which generated an ECAM for an aft CG problem that could not be rectified. The ECAM also called for a Fuel Quantity Management System reset which, when carried out, regenerated all the error messages. For non - Airbus pilots the Status page is normally where ECAM actions are stopped and Normal checklists are used, Operational Engineering Bulletins are considered, resets to recover systems are attempted and any pilot initiated abnormal checklists are used. Preparation for Landing: It took the crew some time to prepare the aircraft for landing. The Landing Performance Application of the Electronic Flight Bag did not appear to generate correct information which resulted in the crew carefully entering eight landing alerts and recalculating the landing performance. The end result was that the predicted approach speed was around 167 knots and landing distance 3850 meters on the 4000 meter runway. Aircraft handling checks were carried out in both the clean and landing configuration with adequate control response and margin demonstrated. This was despite a lateral imbalance of around 10 tonnes and a message indicating an aft cg issue. Landing: Given the loss of hydraulics the aircraft was in a degraded mode with only one aileron working on one wing and two on the other with limited spoiler capability. Autothrust was not available and manual thrust was used with the engines in the alternate mode. Also no leading edge slats were available and the gear had to be extended by gravity. Despite this the approach to landing went as planned expect for a =9CSpeed, Speed=9D call by the warning system. The reason for this is unknown but it was cancelled by thrust application. Touchdown was reported as very smooth and the aircraft speed was brought under control with about 600 metres to run. The aircraft was allowed to roll near to the end runway to position it near the fire trucks. When the aircraft finally stopped the brake temperatures quickly rose to 900 degrees and a few tires deflated. Post landing: When the aircraft stopped the crew attempted to shut down the No 1 engine but were unable to do so with either the fuel switch or the engine fire handle. Fuel was leaking from the left hand wing and pooling around the hot brakes. The fire crew were organized to smother the fuel with foam and the decision was made not to evacuate the aircraft given the running engine, the pooling fuel, the potential for serious injuries and the presence of the fire crews who were attempting to stop the No 1 engine by running a stream of water down the intake. When the engines were finally shut down the aircraft went =9Cdark=9D due to the inability to connect the APU generators to the bus system.. ------------------------------------------------------ Issues for Consideration: This event raises a number of issues for consideration by the ADO committee, Rolls Royce, Airbus and the industry in general. There is no doubt that the aircraft was badly damaged by the IP rotor burst. In fact, it is fortunate that this incident did not end up like the DC-10 in Sioux City Iowa [Or American at O'Hare]. >From an aircraft damage tolerance point of view it is a tribute to the A380, modern design criteria and the redundancy available later generation aircraft. Certainly the fact that the very experienced crew consisted of three Captains, a highly experienced First Officer and a very experienced ex-military Second Officer enabled tasks to be shared including flying the aircraft, dealing with the huge amount of ECAM messages, communication and performance calculations. The First Officer managed the ECAM and, at times, decisions were made to ignore or not do certain ECAM procedures that did not seem logical such as transferring fuel into leaking tanks. It is worth noting that there were three captains present because the Pilot-in-Command was being Annual Route checked by a trainee Check Captain who was being supervised by another Check Captain. Without going into significant explanatory detail the following poses the following questions for consideration: Design: =A2 Given this and a number of other uncontained turbine rotor failures should transport category aircraft be designed to withstand an engine rotor burst? Or is this impracticable? =A2 Conversely, is it possible to design for rotor containment or mitigation by the engine in the event of a burst? =A2 Can engine monitoring systems be developed to warn of an impending catastrophic failure? (e.g. a combination of vibration/ rapid core temperature changes/parameters out of limits) =A2 Rolls Royce have mentioned engine self protection systems to shut down engines in order to minimise the effect of a rotor burst. How would that be implemented? Would warning be given? How critical would an unexpected shutdown be? What would the false warning rate be? =A2 Why did some apparently unrelated systems fail in this incident? (e.g. Yellow system hydraulic pumps on engine No 4) Is there a common data management source that is failing under overload or was it damaged in the incident? =A2 Are modern aircraft so complex that failures tend to be multi-modal and thus confusing to the crew? =A2 If an electrical loom to an engine is cut the fail safe mode is to run on. What if the engine runs on at high thrust? =A2 If there had been an engine fire the crew would not have been able to use the fire bottles because of the cut loom. Is this system truly redundant and effective? =A2 Given the loss of systems in the wing should the main electrical loom be relocated or systems separated to a secondary loom to improve redundancy? =A2 The crew were unable to transfer fuel and there was a substantial fuel leak from the left wing. What if these failures had occurred in mid ocean? Operational Philosophy: =A2 There were many ECAM messages occurring in the initial failure. The constant alerts were distracting and the need to cancel them detracted from the procedures.. Should a semi-permanent cancel mode be available? The crew know they have a problem. =A2 Did the ECAM correctly prioritise the alerts? Probably not known at this stage but certainly a few ECAM messages appeared incorrect in the circumstances (e.g. Fuel transfer into leaking tanks for imbalance). =A2 Is the modern trend to complete all ECAM/EICAS actions too time consuming and distracting to the crew to the detriment of prioritising the flying of the aircraft and the landing? =A2 Should there be an abbreviated ECAM/EICAS procedure that achieves a safe mode for landing in the event of an emergency return? =A2 Is modern aircraft operational philosophy too automation and functional system reliant? Training and Experience: =A2 This was highly experienced crew. Should this type of failure be considered when pairing a 240 hour MPL or cadet pilot graduate with a relatively new Captain? Or is the probability too remote and thus acceptable? =A2 The crew reported in this case that crew resource management was very effective and that there was zero cockpit gradient. The crew were adaptive in dealing with the multiple and complicated ECAM messages. Should crew resource training be modified to include crew recognition of the extreme nature of the emergency and thus to not slavishly follow checklist procedures to the detriment of a timely return to landing? =A2 Given the move to evidence based training should training scenarios include multi-mode failures so that crews can cope with unusual events or are they so rare as not to warrant this type of training? Conclusion: This incident could easily have been an accident; many of the systems failures the crew had to deal with would be classed as an emergency on their own (e.g. uncontained engine failure, loss of hydraulics, multiple bus failures and leading edge failure) let alone in combination. The fact that it wasn=99t an accident is probably testament to the redundancy built into the A380 design and it is certainly due to the training and competency of a very experienced crew operating in a team environment. There are many positive lessons to be learned from this event. Captain Richard Woodward Executive Vice President Technical Standards IFALPA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William J Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Date: Jan 23, 2011
Subject: Re: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue
> dongirod wrote: > > I got this from a friend, not sure of any of the info, but thought it > might be interesting to some on the list. > > Don > > > > Subject: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue > > Here is a review written by IFALPA after they looked at the stuff that's > > so far come out of the QF A380 incident. > > As far as "Fly-by-Wire" and redundancy go it really doesn't matter how > many wires you have going to an item if they are all routed thru the > same > area! Airbus and Rolls have some serious redesign work ahead of them. > > It also poses some really troubling questions that have the potential to > > shake up the entire system from certification authorities through > regulators, through airline training departments. It also blows away the > Airbus > mantra that their jets are so smart that you can stuff an inexperienced > crew > from Nigeria in the cockpit, and as long as they can keep the wings > level > until the A/P is turned on, and then slavishly follow what the totally > brilliant and foolproof ECAM system tells them is wrong and what to do > in what > order, all will be well....[Amen to this comment] > > Qantas A380 Uncontained Engine Failure > Background > On Thursday 4th November a Qantas A380, registration VH-OQA suffered an > uncontained intermediate pressure turbine wheel failure of the No 2 > engine at > about 6000 feet on departure from Singapore. The aircraft returned for > landing safely but the crew had around 54 ECAM messages to deal with and > a > substantial loss of systems on board the aircraft. It took about an hour > to > deal with all those messages. > There were, and are, a number of Airworthiness Directives out on the > engine for inspection; some are new and some are from previous problems. > The > issue appears to be oil leaking from the bearing into the Intermediate > Pressure/High Pressure turbine wheel structural area causing an intense > local > fire that compromised the structure of the turbines. > The aircraft was substantially damaged but landed safely. > > Systems Loss and Damage Synopsis: > Investigations are ongoing and there is much speculation in the media > and > around the industry but the major issue for the ADO committee to > consider > is the secondary damage and systems loss that the aircraft suffered. > > A brief description follows of the known, and public, issues: > The No 2 engine suffered an uncontained failure of IP rotor which > separated from the engine and penetrated the wing and body fairing of > the > aircraft. > The rotor penetrated the forward wing spar and exited the upper > surface > of the wing. > The main electrical loom in forward section of wing was cut causing > loss > of engine control (thrust ok) on No 1 and no ability to shut it down > with > Fire Handle. > The power drive unit for the leading edge devices was severed in the > > same location, > The crew were unable to discharge any fire bottles for engine No 1 > and > No 2. > All electrical hydraulic pumps that side were lost. > A piece of rotor penetrated the body fairing and severed a wiring > loom > in that location. > Another piece of the rotor damaged the aft fuel transfer gallery and > > caused leaks in the left mid and inner fuel feed tanks one of which > was > substantial. This led to a lateral imbalance problem. > The crew were unable to jettison or transfer fuel forward. This led > to > indications of an aft cg problem. > Emergency Outer tank transfer only resulted in the right hand outer > tank transferring the left hand tank failed to transfer - this > helped the > lateral imbalance. > There was damage to the fairing housing the RAT, flaps and flap > track > fairings. > Total loss of the Green hydraulic system, > ECAM indicated loss of both electrical hydraulic pumps on No 4 > engine > (Yellow system). > Landing Gear required gravity extension. > No anti skid on wing gear hence only emergency brakes; body gear > braking > normal > Engines 1 and 4 indicating degraded mode which means no > N-1 > rating limit. Requires all engines to be switched to Alternate > mode with a 4% > maximum thrust loss. > AC bus 1&2 failed. > No 2 engine electrical generator failed as a result of the engine > failure > The APU was started but the crew were unable to connect the APU > bleed > air or the generators to the bus system. > No 1 air conditioning pack failed. > Autothrust was not available. > The satellite phone system would not work. > > ECAM Management: > When the failure occurred something like 54 ECAM messages appeared on > the > screen. These set off the Master Warning and Master Caution many times; > to > the point of distraction of the crew. The First Office started the stop > watch when the first master warning went off and from there it took the > crew > 50 minutes or so to clear the messages down to the Status page. > Management > of the ECAM was an issue with the ECAM calling for a transfer of fuel > into > obviously leaking tanks to cure a fuel imbalance. Forward transfer was > also > not possible which generated an ECAM for an aft CG problem that could > not > be rectified. The ECAM also called for a Fuel Quantity Management System > > reset which, when carried out, regenerated all the error messages. For > non - > Airbus pilots the Status page is normally where ECAM actions are stopped > > and Normal checklists are used, Operational Engineering Bulletins are > considered, resets to recover systems are attempted and any pilot > initiated > abnormal checklists are used. > > Preparation for Landing: > It took the crew some time to prepare the aircraft for landing. The > Landing Performance Application of the Electronic Flight Bag did not > appear to > generate correct information which resulted in the crew carefully > entering > eight landing alerts and recalculating the landing performance. The end > result was that the predicted approach speed was around 167 knots and > landing > distance 3850 meters on the 4000 meter runway. Aircraft handling checks > were > carried out in both the clean and landing configuration with adequate > control response and margin demonstrated. This was despite a lateral > imbalance > of around 10 tonnes and a message indicating an aft cg issue. > > Landing: > Given the loss of hydraulics the aircraft was in a degraded mode with > only > one aileron working on one wing and two on the other with limited > spoiler > capability. Autothrust was not available and manual thrust was used with > > the engines in the alternate mode. Also no leading edge slats were > available > and the gear had to be extended by gravity. Despite this the approach to > > landing went as planned expect for a Speed, Speed call by the > warning > system. The reason for this is unknown but it was cancelled by thrust > application. Touchdown was reported as very smooth and the aircraft > speed was > brought under control with about 600 metres to run. The aircraft was > allowed to > roll near to the end runway to position it near the fire trucks. When > the > aircraft finally stopped the brake temperatures quickly rose to 900 > degrees > and a few tires deflated. > > Post landing: > When the aircraft stopped the crew attempted to shut down the No 1 > engine > but were unable to do so with either the fuel switch or the engine fire > handle. Fuel was leaking from the left hand wing and pooling around the > hot > brakes. The fire crew were organized to smother the fuel with foam and > the > decision was made not to evacuate the aircraft given the running engine, > the > pooling fuel, the potential for serious injuries and the presence of the > > fire crews who were attempting to stop the No 1 engine by running a > stream > of water down the intake. When the engines were finally shut down the > aircraft went dark due to the inability to connect the APU > generators to the > bus system.. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Issues for Consideration: > This event raises a number of issues for consideration by the ADO > committee, Rolls Royce, Airbus and the industry in general. There is no > doubt that > the aircraft was badly damaged by the IP rotor burst. In fact, it is > fortunate that this incident did not end up like the DC-10 in Sioux City > Iowa [Or > American at O'Hare]. >From an aircraft damage tolerance point of view it > > is a tribute to the A380, modern design criteria and the redundancy > available later generation aircraft. Certainly the fact that the very > experienced > crew consisted of three Captains, a highly experienced First Officer and > a > very experienced ex-military Second Officer enabled tasks to be shared > including flying the aircraft, dealing with the huge amount of ECAM > messages, > communication and performance calculations. The First Officer managed > the > ECAM and, at times, decisions were made to ignore or not do certain ECAM > > procedures that did not seem logical such as transferring fuel into > leaking > tanks. It is worth noting that there were three captains present because > the > Pilot-in-Command was being Annual Route checked by a trainee Check > Captain > who was being supervised by another Check Captain. > > Without going into significant explanatory detail the following poses > the > following questions for consideration: > > Design: > Given this and a number of other uncontained turbine rotor failures > should transport category aircraft be designed to withstand an engine > rotor > burst? Or is this impracticable? > Conversely, is it possible to design for rotor containment or > mitigation > by the engine in the event of a burst? > Can engine monitoring systems be developed to warn of an impending > catastrophic failure? (e.g. a combination of vibration/ rapid core > temperature > changes/parameters out of limits) > Rolls Royce have mentioned engine self protection systems to shut > down > engines in order to minimise the effect of a rotor burst. How would that > be > implemented? Would warning be given? How critical would an unexpected > shutdown be? What would the false warning rate be? > Why did some apparently unrelated systems fail in this incident? > (e.g. > Yellow system hydraulic pumps on engine No 4) Is there a common data > management source that is failing under overload or was it damaged in > the > incident? > Are modern aircraft so complex that failures tend to be multi-modal > and > thus confusing to the crew? > If an electrical loom to an engine is cut the fail safe mode is to > run > on. What if the engine runs on at high thrust? > If there had been an engine fire the crew would not have been able > to > use the fire bottles because of the cut loom. Is this system truly > redundant > and effective? > Given the loss of systems in the wing should the main electrical > loom be > relocated or systems separated to a secondary loom to improve > redundancy? > The crew were unable to transfer fuel and there was a substantial > fuel > leak from the left wing. What if these failures had occurred in mid > ocean? > > Operational Philosophy: > There were many ECAM messages occurring in the initial failure. The > constant alerts were distracting and the need to cancel them detracted > from the > procedures.. Should a semi-permanent cancel mode be available? The crew > know they have a problem. > Did the ECAM correctly prioritise the alerts? Probably not known at > this > stage but certainly a few ECAM messages appeared incorrect in the > circumstances (e.g. Fuel transfer into leaking tanks for imbalance). > Is the modern trend to complete all ECAM/EICAS actions too time > consuming and distracting to the crew to the detriment of prioritising > the flying > of the aircraft and the landing? > Should there be an abbreviated ECAM/EICAS procedure that achieves a > safe > mode for landing in the event of an emergency return? > Is modern aircraft operational philosophy too automation and > functional > system reliant? > > Training and Experience: > This was highly experienced crew. Should this type of failure be > considered when pairing a 240 hour MPL or cadet pilot graduate with a > relatively > new Captain? Or is the probability too remote and thus acceptable? > The crew reported in this case that crew resource management was > very > effective and that there was zero cockpit gradient. The crew were > adaptive in > dealing with the multiple and complicated ECAM messages. Should crew > resource training be modified to include crew recognition of the extreme > nature > of the emergency and thus to not slavishly follow checklist procedures > to > the detriment of a timely return to landing? > Given the move to evidence based training should training scenarios > include multi-mode failures so that crews can cope with unusual events > or are > they so rare as not to warrant this type of training? > > Conclusion: > This incident could easily have been an accident; many of the systems > failures the crew had to deal with would be classed as an emergency on > their > own (e.g. uncontained engine failure, loss of hydraulics, multiple bus > failures and leading edge failure) let alone in combination. The fact > that it > wasnt an accident is probably testament to the redundancy built into > the > A380 design and it is certainly due to the training and competency of a > very > experienced crew operating in a team environment. There are many > positive > lessons to be learned from this event. > > Captain Richard Woodward > Executive Vice President Technical Standards > IFALPA Folks, The IFALPA VP who wrote this is also a QANTAS captain. The details are correct, if abbreviated, the complete analysis of the interacting multiple failures are not yet complete, but the limitations of the "computer knows best" Airbus approach is showing its limitations here. As another QF mate of mine said of Airbus: "Its all about democracy, and the computers have 51% of the vote". For those of you familiar with the B777, in a "apples and apples" event in the 777, the likely cockpit complications would be considerably less. The normal crew for the A380 is still two pilots, with an event such as this, life for two pilots would have been very busy. One comment, about cockpit authority gradient, a flat (indeed almost non-existent) gradient is almost achieved in QANTAS, it certainly helps. I know all the crew involved, except the S/O, two are ex-students of mine ( the supervising Senior Check and the operating Captain) and it is clear even to the detractors of the "real" QANTAS, that the crew and years of training showed. This is not stopping the senior management (none are pilots or engineers) dumbing down the flight operation, indeed it seems much of the operation is gradually being moved to Singapore, initially the Jetstar division, to be operated by short term contract pilots, with training being done by outside contractors. Once again, accountants can tell you the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. Regards, Bill Hamilton QF Check and Training Captain, retired. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2011
Subject: Re: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (MacbookPro)" <deneals(at)deneals.com>
Here are comments (in bold) I received after I forwarded that report to a "mate" of mine that is an Airbus capt for UPS (also ex- Central Air): " Is the modern trend to complete all ECAM/EICAS actions too time consuming and distracting to the crew to the detriment of prioritising the flying of the aircraft and the landing? *YES* Should there be an abbreviated ECAM/EICAS procedure that achieves a safe mode for landing in the event of an emergency return? *I would just ignore the ecam, Land asap and make sure the gear is down before touchdown. *I've found many scenarios in Sim training where the ECAM becomes a burden. When you're done with the ECAM items, you still have to supplement it with the paper checklist and figure out the proper point to enter the checklist. We have 6 known anomaly's on our A300's that we are told to ignore. I would rather use the Paper checklist and forget about ECAM. On 1/22/11 5:55 PM, "William J Hamilton" wrote: > Folks, > The IFALPA VP who wrote this is also a QANTAS captain. > > The details are correct, if abbreviated, the complete analysis of the > interacting multiple failures are not yet complete, but the limitations o f the > "computer knows best" Airbus approach is showing its limitations here. > > As another QF mate of mine said of Airbus: "Its all about democracy, and the > computers have 51% of the vote". > > For those of you familiar with the B777, in a "apples and apples" event i n the > 777, the likely cockpit complications would be considerably less. > > The normal crew for the A380 is still two pilots, with an event such as t his, > life for two pilots would have been very busy. > > One comment, about cockpit authority gradient, a flat (indeed almost > non-existent) gradient is almost achieved in QANTAS, it certainly helps. > > I know all the crew involved, except the S/O, two are ex-students of mine ( > the supervising Senior Check and the operating Captain) and it is clear e ven > to the detractors of the "real" QANTAS, that the crew and years of traini ng > showed. > > This is not stopping the senior management (none are pilots or engineers) > dumbing down the flight operation, indeed it seems much of the operation is > gradually being moved to Singapore, initially the Jetstar division, to be > operated by short term contract pilots, with training being done by outsi de > contractors. > > Once again, accountants can tell you the cost of everything, but the valu e of > nothing. > > Regards, > Bill Hamilton > QF Check and Training Captain, retired. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2011
Subject: FW: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue
From: "Deneal Schilmeister (MacbookPro)" <deneals(at)deneals.com>
Here are comments I received after I forwarded that report to a "mate" of mine that recently retired as a manager in Boeing=B9s (nee McDonnell Douglas=B9 ) Phantom Works: ------ Forwarded Message Great report. Really interesting =AD fascinating. Here are a few of my thoughts: * You can contain blade failures, but not rotor failures. I have first hand experience with two rotor failures =AD F100 engine #169 which failed on the test stand at St. Louis, and an F404 engine in F-18 TF2 that failed in flight and took out the other engine, causing loss of the aircraft. The pilots, Garry Post and ???, both survived. Rotors always fail in thirds, an d the energy of the failed components is so incredible that the weight associated with containment is prohibitive. * These guys were damn lucky in addition to being highly skilled. A lesser skilled crew probably would not have brought the aircraft back. It was incredibly fortunate that there were three Captains onboard =AD what are the odds of that? * Not to pick on Airbus, but I don=B9t understand how taking out one wire bundle could cause the loss of function. The spec as I remember is that redundant wire bundles have to be routed a minimum of 18 inches apart. Thanks for sharing! ------ End of Forwarded Message ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue
Date: Jan 22, 2011
Hi Don, Thanks for forwarding. Fascinating reading. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 12:08 PM Subject: Commander-List: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue I got this from a friend, not sure of any of the info, but thought it might be interesting to some on the list. Don Subject: IFALPA's take on the A380 Issue Here is a review written by IFALPA after they looked at the stuff that's so far come out of the QF A380 incident. As far as "Fly-by-Wire" and redundancy go it really doesn't matter how many wires you have going to an item if they are all routed thru the same area! Airbus and Rolls have some serious redesign work ahead of them. It also poses some really troubling questions that have the potential to shake up the entire system from certification authorities through regulators, through airline training departments. It also blows away the Airbus mantra that their jets are so smart that you can stuff an inexperienced crew from Nigeria in the cockpit, and as long as they can keep the wings level until the A/P is turned on, and then slavishly follow what the totally brilliant and foolproof ECAM system tells them is wrong and what to do in what order, all will be well....[Amen to this comment] Qantas A380 Uncontained Engine Failure Background On Thursday 4th November a Qantas A380, registration VH-OQA suffered an uncontained intermediate pressure turbine wheel failure of the No 2 engine at about 6000 feet on departure from Singapore. The aircraft returned for landing safely but the crew had around 54 ECAM messages to deal with and a substantial loss of systems on board the aircraft. It took about an hour to deal with all those messages. There were, and are, a number of Airworthiness Directives out on the engine for inspection; some are new and some are from previous problems. The issue appears to be oil leaking from the bearing into the Intermediate Pressure/High Pressure turbine wheel structural area causing an intense local fire that compromised the structure of the turbines. The aircraft was substantially damaged but landed safely. Systems Loss and Damage Synopsis: Investigations are ongoing and there is much speculation in the media and around the industry but the major issue for the ADO committee to consider is the secondary damage and systems loss that the aircraft suffered. A brief description follows of the known, and public, issues: . The No 2 engine suffered an uncontained failure of IP rotor which separated from the engine and penetrated the wing and body fairing of the aircraft. . The rotor penetrated the forward wing spar and exited the upper surface of the wing. . The main electrical loom in forward section of wing was cut causing loss of engine control (thrust ok) on No 1 and no ability to shut it down with Fire Handle. . The power drive unit for the leading edge devices was severed in the same location, . The crew were unable to discharge any fire bottles for engine No 1 and No 2. . All electrical hydraulic pumps that side were lost. . A piece of rotor penetrated the body fairing and severed a wiring loom in that location. . Another piece of the rotor damaged the aft fuel transfer gallery and caused leaks in the left mid and inner fuel feed tanks - one of which was substantial. This led to a lateral imbalance problem. . The crew were unable to jettison or transfer fuel forward. This led to indications of an aft cg problem. . Emergency Outer tank transfer only resulted in the right hand outer tank transferring - the left hand tank failed to transfer - this helped the lateral imbalance. . There was damage to the fairing housing the RAT, flaps and flap track fairings. . Total loss of the Green hydraulic system, . ECAM indicated loss of both electrical hydraulic pumps on No 4 engine (Yellow system). . Landing Gear required gravity extension. . No anti skid on wing gear hence only emergency brakes; body gear braking normal . Engines 1 and 4 indicating 'degraded mode' - which means no N-1 rating limit. Requires all engines to be switched to 'Alternate' mode with a 4% maximum thrust loss. . AC bus 1&2 failed. . No 2 engine electrical generator failed as a result of the engine failure . The APU was started but the crew were unable to connect the APU bleed air or the generators to the bus system. . No 1 air conditioning pack failed. . Autothrust was not available. . The satellite phone system would not work. ECAM Management: When the failure occurred something like 54 ECAM messages appeared on the screen. These set off the Master Warning and Master Caution many times; to the point of distraction of the crew. The First Office started the stop watch when the first master warning went off and from there it took the crew 50 minutes or so to clear the messages down to the Status page. Management of the ECAM was an issue with the ECAM calling for a transfer of fuel into obviously leaking tanks to cure a fuel imbalance. Forward transfer was also not possible which generated an ECAM for an aft CG problem that could not be rectified. The ECAM also called for a Fuel Quantity Management System reset which, when carried out, regenerated all the error messages. For non - Airbus pilots the Status page is normally where ECAM actions are stopped and Normal checklists are used, Operational Engineering Bulletins are considered, resets to recover systems are attempted and any pilot initiated abnormal checklists are used. Preparation for Landing: It took the crew some time to prepare the aircraft for landing. The Landing Performance Application of the Electronic Flight Bag did not appear to generate correct information which resulted in the crew carefully entering eight landing alerts and recalculating the landing performance. The end result was that the predicted approach speed was around 167 knots and landing distance 3850 meters on the 4000 meter runway. Aircraft handling checks were carried out in both the clean and landing configuration with adequate control response and margin demonstrated. This was despite a lateral imbalance of around 10 tonnes and a message indicating an aft cg issue. Landing: Given the loss of hydraulics the aircraft was in a degraded mode with only one aileron working on one wing and two on the other with limited spoiler capability. Autothrust was not available and manual thrust was used with the engines in the alternate mode. Also no leading edge slats were available and the gear had to be extended by gravity. Despite this the approach to landing went as planned expect for a "Speed, Speed" call by the warning system. The reason for this is unknown but it was cancelled by thrust application. Touchdown was reported as very smooth and the aircraft speed was brought under control with about 600 metres to run. The aircraft was allowed to roll near to the end runway to position it near the fire trucks. When the aircraft finally stopped the brake temperatures quickly rose to 900 degrees and a few tires deflated. Post landing: When the aircraft stopped the crew attempted to shut down the No 1 engine but were unable to do so with either the fuel switch or the engine fire handle. Fuel was leaking from the left hand wing and pooling around the hot brakes. The fire crew were organized to smother the fuel with foam and the decision was made not to evacuate the aircraft given the running engine, the pooling fuel, the potential for serious injuries and the presence of the fire crews who were attempting to stop the No 1 engine by running a stream of water down the intake. When the engines were finally shut down the aircraft went "dark" due to the inability to connect the APU generators to the bus system.. ------------------------------------------------------ Issues for Consideration: This event raises a number of issues for consideration by the ADO committee, Rolls Royce, Airbus and the industry in general. There is no doubt that the aircraft was badly damaged by the IP rotor burst. In fact, it is fortunate that this incident did not end up like the DC-10 in Sioux City Iowa [Or American at O'Hare]. >From an aircraft damage tolerance point of view it is a tribute to the A380, modern design criteria and the redundancy available later generation aircraft. Certainly the fact that the very experienced crew consisted of three Captains, a highly experienced First Officer and a very experienced ex-military Second Officer enabled tasks to be shared including flying the aircraft, dealing with the huge amount of ECAM messages, communication and performance calculations. The First Officer managed the ECAM and, at times, decisions were made to ignore or not do certain ECAM procedures that did not seem logical such as transferring fuel into leaking tanks. It is worth noting that there were three captains present because the Pilot-in-Command was being Annual Route checked by a trainee Check Captain who was being supervised by another Check Captain. Without going into significant explanatory detail the following poses the following questions for consideration: Design: . Given this and a number of other uncontained turbine rotor failures should transport category aircraft be designed to withstand an engine rotor burst? Or is this impracticable? . Conversely, is it possible to design for rotor containment or mitigation by the engine in the event of a burst? . Can engine monitoring systems be developed to warn of an impending catastrophic failure? (e.g. a combination of vibration/ rapid core temperature changes/parameters out of limits) . Rolls Royce have mentioned engine self protection systems to shut down engines in order to minimise the effect of a rotor burst. How would that be implemented? Would warning be given? How critical would an unexpected shutdown be? What would the false warning rate be? . Why did some apparently unrelated systems fail in this incident? (e.g. Yellow system hydraulic pumps on engine No 4) Is there a common data management source that is failing under overload or was it damaged in the incident? . Are modern aircraft so complex that failures tend to be multi-modal and thus confusing to the crew? . If an electrical loom to an engine is cut the fail safe mode is to run on. What if the engine runs on at high thrust? . If there had been an engine fire the crew would not have been able to use the fire bottles because of the cut loom. Is this system truly redundant and effective? . Given the loss of systems in the wing should the main electrical loom be relocated or systems separated to a secondary loom to improve redundancy? . The crew were unable to transfer fuel and there was a substantial fuel leak from the left wing. What if these failures had occurred in mid ocean? Operational Philosophy: . There were many ECAM messages occurring in the initial failure. The constant alerts were distracting and the need to cancel them detracted from the procedures.. Should a semi-permanent cancel mode be available? The crew know they have a problem. . Did the ECAM correctly prioritise the alerts? Probably not known at this stage but certainly a few ECAM messages appeared incorrect in the circumstances (e.g. Fuel transfer into leaking tanks for imbalance). . Is the modern trend to complete all ECAM/EICAS actions too time consuming and distracting to the crew to the detriment of prioritising the flying of the aircraft and the landing? . Should there be an abbreviated ECAM/EICAS procedure that achieves a safe mode for landing in the event of an emergency return? . Is modern aircraft operational philosophy too automation and functional system reliant? Training and Experience: . This was highly experienced crew. Should this type of failure be considered when pairing a 240 hour MPL or cadet pilot graduate with a relatively new Captain? Or is the probability too remote and thus acceptable? . The crew reported in this case that crew resource management was very effective and that there was zero cockpit gradient. The crew were adaptive in dealing with the multiple and complicated ECAM messages. Should crew resource training be modified to include crew recognition of the extreme nature of the emergency and thus to not slavishly follow checklist procedures to the detriment of a timely return to landing? . Given the move to evidence based training should training scenarios include multi-mode failures so that crews can cope with unusual events or are they so rare as not to warrant this type of training? Conclusion: This incident could easily have been an accident; many of the systems failures the crew had to deal with would be classed as an emergency on their own (e.g. uncontained engine failure, loss of hydraulics, multiple bus failures and leading edge failure) let alone in combination. The fact that it wasn't an accident is probably testament to the redundancy built into the A380 design and it is certainly due to the training and competency of a very experienced crew operating in a team environment. There are many positive lessons to be learned from this event. Captain Richard Woodward Executive Vice President Technical Standards IFALPA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2011
From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>
Subject: Stuff available...
I'm cleaning my office and am offering Commander stuff to anyone interested. Have a Complete set of SBs, SLs, and SIs (Vol CP-1 and CP-2). Purchased new from TCAC about 10 years ago (close to $800 if I recall) and in perfect, complete condition. Full set of Maint and Parts manuals for 690A/B - good condition. Factory orig electrical blueprints and schematics for 560 (a MUST HAVE if you own a 560) Full set of MRRPM installation and parts drawings for turbo 400 installations. Commander "Custom Kits" catalog - new condition from TCAC Lycoming GO-435 parts and overhaul manual Probably quite a bit more that I have not yet uncovered.... All of the above is FREE to anyone who flies in to pick it up. I don't have the spare time to bother with packing and shipping. Chris Schuermann airport: KOWP (just outside of Tulsa, OK) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stan" <swperk(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Stuff available...
Date: Jan 23, 2011
Hi Chris, I'll be travelling right through your area on my way to Champaign, IL. The problem is that it won't be until April. I know it's kind of a long shot, but in case no one picks them up before then, I'd like to get the set of SBs, SLs, and SIs, as well as the custom kits catalog. Regards, Stan -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:01 PM Subject: Commander-List: Stuff available... I'm cleaning my office and am offering Commander stuff to anyone interested. Have a Complete set of SBs, SLs, and SIs (Vol CP-1 and CP-2). Purchased new from TCAC about 10 years ago (close to $800 if I recall) and in perfect, complete condition. Full set of Maint and Parts manuals for 690A/B - good condition. Factory orig electrical blueprints and schematics for 560 (a MUST HAVE if you own a 560) Full set of MRRPM installation and parts drawings for turbo 400 installations. Commander "Custom Kits" catalog - new condition from TCAC Lycoming GO-435 parts and overhaul manual Probably quite a bit more that I have not yet uncovered.... All of the above is FREE to anyone who flies in to pick it up. I don't have the spare time to bother with packing and shipping. Chris Schuermann airport: KOWP (just outside of Tulsa, OK) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: White_rhino_ps <white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Stuff available...
Date: Jan 23, 2011
I'd be interested in the GO-435 stuff. I'm nowhere nearby by my cousin lives outside Tulsa. Gimme a couple days to hook up... Craig >From my iPhone 4! On Jan 23, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Chris wrote: > > > I'm cleaning my office and am offering Commander stuff to anyone interested. > > Have a Complete set of SBs, SLs, and SIs (Vol CP-1 and CP-2). Purchased new from TCAC about 10 years ago (close to $800 if I recall) and in perfect, complete condition. > > Full set of Maint and Parts manuals for 690A/B - good condition. > > Factory orig electrical blueprints and schematics for 560 (a MUST HAVE if you own a 560) > > Full set of MRRPM installation and parts drawings for turbo 400 installations. > > Commander "Custom Kits" catalog - new condition from TCAC > > Lycoming GO-435 parts and overhaul manual > > Probably quite a bit more that I have not yet uncovered.... > > All of the above is FREE to anyone who flies in to pick it up. I don't have the spare time to bother with packing and shipping. > > Chris Schuermann > airport: KOWP (just outside of Tulsa, OK) > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 24, 2011
Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as Cancelled. I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded Experimental titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, its been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as Cancelled. This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, its been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I can only presume that its been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as Expiration. Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised sold 3yrs ago, but records lost. Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as Sale Reported. N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, Expiration. Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2011
From: Brock Lorber <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com>
Subject: Re: FAA Registration cancellations
Barry: N29DE was cut up for scrap. I meant to get pictures for you, but it was hauled away before I had a chance. Brock Barry Collman wrote: > > Hello All, > > Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. > If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. > I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: > > N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 > Cancelled January 19th 2011, as Cancelled. > I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. > It had faded Experimental titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! > I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. > Since then, its been sold twice. > First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. > Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. > Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. > > N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 > Cancelled January 18th 2011, as Cancelled. > This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. > Since then, its been sold twice. > First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). > Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. > I can only presume that its been WFU. > I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. > Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. > > N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 > Cancelled January 21st 2011, as Expiration. > Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. > On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised sold 3yrs ago, but records lost. > Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as Sale Reported. > > N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 > Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. > Cancelled January 21st 2011, Expiration. > Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. > Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. > However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. > No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. > > Best Regards, > Barry > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2011
From: "sr14572(at)yahoo.com" <sr14572(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FAA Registration cancellations
????=C2-=C2- what is WFU????=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________________ ____=0AFrom: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>=0ATo: commande r-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, January 24, 2011 4:18:05 PM=0ASubject: Co mmander-List: FAA Registration cancellations=0A=0A--> Commander-List messag e posted by: "Barry Collman" =0A<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>=0A=0AHell o All,=0A=0ALast week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FA A.=0AIf anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any o f them, =0AI'd be grateful for a heads-up.=0AI've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the =0Afollowing:=0A=0AN29DE, Model 68 0V, s/n 1699-76=0ACancelled January 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled =9D.=0AI saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on Septembe r 23rd 1995.=0AIt had faded =9CExperimental=9D titles and the s /n plate had been moved & a further =0Aplate proclaimed the aircraft had Ly coming IGSO-540-B1A engines!=0AI was told that it had been engineless for a bout 5 years.=0ASince then, it=99s been sold twice.=0AFirst sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed =0Aaway i n April 2008.=0ASecond 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in fav our of Mid America =0AFunding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri.=0AInterestingly , some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since =0Aoverhau l Walters M601A engines.=0A=0AN41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26=0ACancell ed January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D.=0AThis has been parke d in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since =0Aat least Oct ober 1999, when I first saw it.=0ASince then, it=99s been sold twice. =0AFirst sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida ( later to =0AMedley, Florida).=0ASecond sale was to Best In The Caribbean LL C., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.=0AI can only presume that it=99s bee n WFU.=0AI saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had =0Abeen removed.=0APreviously, it was OK when seen and photogr aphed at Oshkosh in August 1996.=0A=0AN117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 =0ACancelled January 21st 2011, as =9CExpiration=9D.=0AWas owne d jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee.=0AO n January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but record s lost=9D.=0AHas been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Repo rted=9D.=0A=0AN3821C, Model 500, s/n 718=0ARegistration Revoked May 2 1st 1982.=0ACancelled January 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D.=0AEx act status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no =0Arecent photos.=0AIs currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Re public, Missouri.=0AHowever an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted =0Aby Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. =0ANo Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though.=0A=0ABest Regards - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dr =============0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 24, 2011
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
Barry: N29DE was cut up for scrap. I meant to get pictures for you, but it was hauled away before I had a chance. Brock Thanks, Brock. I was just about to mount an expedition to KVGT to search . Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. FAASTeam Lead Rep, Las Vegas NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BertBerry1(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 24, 2011
Subject: Re: FAA Registration cancellations
Thanks Barry, Do you have any photos at all of 1699-76 or 680E-809-59? I've attached an interesting newspaper clip regarding 809-59. Bert In a message dated 1/24/2011 3:29:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded =9CExperimental=9D titles and the s/n plate had b een moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida . I can only presume that it=99s been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996 . N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as =9CExpiration=9D. Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but reco rds lost=9D . Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Reported=9D. N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D. Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. Best Regards, Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 24, 2011
Hi Brock, OK - grateful thanks for that info. Any ideas on when was scrapped? Presumably in the last year or so? Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber Sent: 24 January 2011 21:55 Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations --> Barry: N29DE was cut up for scrap. I meant to get pictures for you, but it was hauled away before I had a chance. Brock Barry Collman wrote: > --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> > > Hello All, > > Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. > If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. > I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: > > N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 > Cancelled January 19th 2011, as Cancelled. > I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. > It had faded Experimental titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! > I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. > Since then, its been sold twice. > First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. > Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. > Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. > > N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 > Cancelled January 18th 2011, as Cancelled. > This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. > Since then, its been sold twice. > First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). > Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. > I can only presume that its been WFU. > I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. > Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. > > N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 > Cancelled January 21st 2011, as Expiration. > Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. > On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised sold 3yrs ago, but records lost. > Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as Sale Reported. > > N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 > Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. > Cancelled January 21st 2011, Expiration. > Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. > Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. > However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. > No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. > > Best Regards, > Barry > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 24, 2011
Hi Keith! Grateful thanks for planning to mount the expedition. I'm glad you didn't have a wasted journey! Very Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon Sent: 24 January 2011 22:33 Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Barry: N29DE was cut up for scrap. I meant to get pictures for you, but it was hauled away before I had a chance. Brock Thanks, Brock. I was just about to mount an expedition to KVGT to search. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. FAASTeam Lead Rep, Las Vegas NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 24, 2011
Hi Gary, WFU is =9Cspotter speak=9D for Withdrawn From Use, meaning an aircraft has been permanently withdrawn from service and will never fly again. I copied the same message I sent to a =9Cspotters-type=9D forum and forgot to expand that item. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of sr14572(at)yahoo.com Sent: 24 January 2011 22:07 Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations ???? what is WFU???? _____ From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 4:18:05 PM Subject: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded =9CExperimental=9D titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I can only presume that it=99s been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as =9CExpiration=9D. Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but records lost=9D. Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Reported=9D. N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D. Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted th======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2011
From: "sr14572(at)yahoo.com" <sr14572(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FAA Registration cancellations
being a dirty minded old man, I expected the worst.=C2-=C2- hahahahha =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Barry Collman <barr y.collman(at)air-britain.co.uk>=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Mon , January 24, 2011 6:32:06 PM=0ASubject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Registrati on cancellations=0A=0A=0AHi Gary,=0A=C2-=0AWFU is =9Cspotter speak =9D for Withdrawn From Use, meaning an aircraft has been =0Apermanent ly withdrawn from service and will never fly again.=0A=C2-=0AI copied the same message I sent to a =9Cspotters-type=9D forum and forgot to expand =0Athat item.=0A=C2-=0ABest Regards,=0ABarry=0A=C2-=0AFrom:ow ner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-commander-list-ser ver(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of =0Asr14572(at)yahoo.com=0ASent: 24 January 201 1 22:07=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: F AA Registration cancellations=0A=C2-=0A????=C2-=C2- what is WFU???? =0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Barry Collman =0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: M on, January 24, 2011 4:18:05 PM=0ASubject: Commander-List: FAA Registration =0A<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>=0A=0AHello All,=0A=0ALast week, the fo llowing Registrations were cancelled by the FAA.=0AIf anybody has any sight ings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, =0AI'd be grateful fo r a heads-up.=0AI've included info that I have recorded that might be relev ant for the =0Afollowing:=0A=0AN29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76=0ACancelled J anuary 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D.=0AI saw this one at Las V egas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995.=0AIt had faded =9CExperimental=9D titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further =0Aplate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! =0AI was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years.=0ASince then, it=99s been sold twice.=0AFirst sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Dunc an, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed =0Aaway in April 2008.=0ASecond 'sale ' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America =0AFundin g Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri.=0AInterestingly, some Court papers in the F AA file included two zero-time since =0Aoverhaul Walters M601A engines.=0A =0AN41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26=0ACancelled January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D.=0AThis has been parked in the open at Dayton-W right Brothers airport, Ohio since =0Aat least October 1999, when I first s aw it.=0ASince then, it=99s been sold twice.=0AFirst sale was to RG I nternational Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to =0AMedley, Flori da).=0ASecond sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, F lorida.=0AI can only presume that it=99s been WFU.=0AI saw it again a t Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had =0Abeen remo ved.=0APreviously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in Augus t 1996.=0A=0AN117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59=0ACancelled January 21st 2 011, as =9CExpiration=9D.=0AWas owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee.=0AOn January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but records lost=9D.=0AHas been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Reported=9D.=0A=0AN3821C, Model 500, s/n 718=0ARegistration Revoked May 21st 1982.=0ACancelled Janua ry 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D.=0AExact status not known; no ac cidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no =0Arecent photos.=0AIs curr ently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri.=0AHowever an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted =0Aby Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida.=0ANo Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted th================ =========0A=0A=0A=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0A =C2-=0Ahttp://www .matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahtt ===== =0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2011
From: Brock Lorber <blorber(at)southwestcirrus.com>
Subject: Re: FAA Registration cancellations
Barry: 2-3 weeks ago. As far as the powerplants, I know Rex's plan was to put the Walthers on (and he may have even purchased them), but I don't think they ever got mounted on the airframe. Brock Barry Collman wrote: > > Hi Brock, > > OK - grateful thanks for that info. > Any ideas on when was scrapped? > Presumably in the last year or so? > > Best Regards, > Barry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brock Lorber > Sent: 24 January 2011 21:55 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations > > --> > > Barry: > > N29DE was cut up for scrap. I meant to get pictures for you, but it was hauled away before I had a chance. > > Brock > > Barry Collman wrote: >> --> <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> >> >> Hello All, >> >> Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. >> If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. >> I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: >> >> N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 >> Cancelled January 19th 2011, as Cancelled. >> I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. >> It had faded Experimental titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! >> I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. >> Since then, its been sold twice. >> First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. >> Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. >> Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. >> >> N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 >> Cancelled January 18th 2011, as Cancelled. >> This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. >> Since then, its been sold twice. >> First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). >> Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. >> I can only presume that its been WFU. >> I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. >> Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. >> >> N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 >> Cancelled January 21st 2011, as Expiration. >> Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. >> On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised sold 3yrs ago, but records lost. >> Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as Sale Reported. >> >> N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 >> Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. >> Cancelled January 21st 2011, Expiration. >> Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. >> Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. >> However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. >> No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. >> >> Best Regards, >> Barry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 24, 2011
Hi Bert, No photos of s/n 1699-76 or 809-59. Strangely though, in my search for photos on websites in the last week or so, I=99m sure I found a shot of N29DE, but for some bizarre reason, it seems I didn=99t save it! I=99m sure I used the =9C+=9D facility to home in on whether it still had the =9CExperimental=9D title on the cabin roof area and could see it !! Thanks for the newspaper clipping. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BertBerry1(at)aol.com Sent: 24 January 2011 22:44 Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Thanks Barry, Do you have any photos at all of 1699-76 or 680E-809-59? I've attached an interesting newspaper clip regarding 809-59. Bert In a message dated 1/24/2011 3:29:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded =9CExperimental=9D titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I can only presume that it=99s been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as =9CExpiration=9D. Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but records lost=9D. Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Reported=9D. N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D. Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. Best ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 24, 2011
You only get the best from me ;-) From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of sr14572(at)yahoo.com Sent: 24 January 2011 23:44 Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations being a dirty minded old man, I expected the worst. hahahahha _____ From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 6:32:06 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Hi Gary, WFU is =9Cspotter speak=9D for Withdrawn From Use, meaning an aircraft has been permanently withdrawn from service and will never fly again. I copied the same message I sent to a =9Cspotters-type=9D forum and forgot to expand that item. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of sr14572(at)yahoo.com Sent: 24 January 2011 22:07 Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations ???? what is WFU???? _____ From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 4:18:05 PM Subject: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded =9CExperimental=9D titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I can only presume that it=99s been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as =9CExpiration=9D. Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but records lost=9D. Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Reported=9D. N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D. Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted th======================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/c================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2011
From: "sr14572(at)yahoo.com" <sr14572(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FAA Registration cancellations
that was good.=C2-=C2- hey, i just bought a 1959 cessna 150.=C2-=C2 - polished and from the =0Aoriginal owner(s).=C2- pick it up in Feb.=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>=0ATo: commander-list@ matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, January 24, 2011 6:48:33 PM=0ASubject: RE: Comma nder-List: FAA Registration cancellations=0A=0A=0AYou only get the best fro m me ;-)=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mail to:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of =0Asr14572@yahoo .com=0ASent: 24 January 2011 23:44=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASub ject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations=0A=C2-=0Abeing a dirty minded old man, I expected the worst.=C2-=C2- hahahahha=0A=C2- =0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Barry Collman =0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, Janua ry 24, 2011 6:32:06 PM=0ASubject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Registration canc ellations=0AHi Gary,=0A=C2-=0AWFU is =9Cspotter speak=9D for Withdrawn From Use, meaning an aircraft has been =0Apermanently withdrawn f rom service and will never fly again.=0A=C2-=0AI copied the same message I sent to a =9Cspotters-type=9D forum and forgot to expand =0At hat item.=0A=C2-=0ABest Regards,=0ABarry=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-commander- list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics. com] On Behalf Of =0Asr14572(at)yahoo.com=0ASent: 24 January 2011 22:07=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registratio n cancellations=0A=C2-=0A????=C2-=C2- what is WFU????=0A=C2-=0A=0A_ _______________________________=0A=0AFrom:Barry Collman <barry.collman@air- britain.co.uk>=0ATo: commander-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, January 24, 2011 4:18:05 PM=0ASubject: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations an@air-britain.co.uk>=0A=0AHello All,=0A=0ALast week, the following Registr ations were cancelled by the FAA.=0AIf anybody has any sightings, photograp hs, or any info at all on any of them, =0AI'd be grateful for a heads-up. =0AI've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the =0Afollowing:=0A=0AN29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76=0ACancelled January 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D.=0AI saw this one at Las Vegas-North L as Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995.=0AIt had faded =9CExper imental=9D titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further =0Apla te proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines!=0AI was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years.=0ASince then, it=99s b een sold twice.=0AFirst sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed =0Aaway in April 2008.=0ASecond 'sale' was by way o f a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America =0AFunding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri.=0AInterestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file includ ed two zero-time since =0Aoverhaul Walters M601A engines.=0A=0AN41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26=0ACancelled January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelle d=9D.=0AThis has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers ai rport, Ohio since =0Aat least October 1999, when I first saw it.=0ASince th en, it=99s been sold twice.=0AFirst sale was to RG International Airc raft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to =0AMedley, Florida).=0ASecond sal e was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.=0AI can o nly presume that it=99s been WFU.=0AI saw it again at Dayton-Wright B rothers in September 2006 and the engines had =0Abeen removed.=0APreviously , it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996.=0A=0AN117 MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59=0ACancelled January 21st 2011, as =9C Expiration=9D.=0AWas owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Co rp., of Memphis, Tennessee.=0AOn January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but records lost=9D.=0AHas been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Reported=9D.=0A=0AN3821C, Model 500, s/n 7 18=0ARegistration Revoked May 21st 1982.=0ACancelled January 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D.=0AExact status not known; no accidents traced; n othing via a Google search; no =0Arecent photos.=0AIs currently Regd to Dut ch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri.=0AHowever an Application f or Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted =0Aby Daniel Ray Le wis, of Jacksonville, Florida.=0ANo Bill of Sale to him has ever been submi tted th====================== ===0A=0A=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0A =C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Naviga tor?Commander-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com /contribution=0A =C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/c======= ===========0A =C2-=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0A =C2-=0Ahtt p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.co ======== =0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stan" <swperk(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 24, 2011
Hi Barry, Is this link of any interest? http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/claudi70/USA/Nevada/Las%20Vegas- North%20Airport%202009/?action=view <http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/claudi70/USA/Nevada/Las%20Vegas -North%20Airport%202009/?action=view¤t=N29DE_.jpg> ¤t=N29DE_.jpg Regards, Stan From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 3:46 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Hi Bert, No photos of s/n 1699-76 or 809-59. Strangely though, in my search for photos on websites in the last week or so, I=99m sure I found a shot of N29DE, but for some bizarre reason, it seems I didn=99t save it! I=99m sure I used the =9C+=9D facility to home in on whether it still had the =9CExperimental=9D title on the cabin roof area and could see it !! Thanks for the newspaper clipping. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BertBerry1(at)aol.com Sent: 24 January 2011 22:44 Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Thanks Barry, Do you have any photos at all of 1699-76 or 680E-809-59? I've attached an interesting newspaper clip regarding 809-59. Bert In a message dated 1/24/2011 3:29:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded =9CExperimental=9D titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I can only presume that it=99s been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as =9CExpiration=9D. Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but records lost=9D. Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Reported=9D. N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D. Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. Best ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 25, 2011
Hi Stan, I received the same shot from Bert Berry, who=99s given me a new tip to try when using Google to look for photos. How about that . . . an old dog learning new tricks!! Grateful thanks though Stan. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan Sent: 25 January 2011 01:19 Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Hi Barry, Is this link of any interest? http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/claudi70/USA/Nevada/Las%20Vegas- North%20Airport%202009/?action=view <http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/claudi70/USA/Nevada/Las%20Vegas -North%20Airport%202009/?action=view¤t=N29DE_.jpg> ¤t=N29DE_.jpg Regards, Stan From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 3:46 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Hi Bert, No photos of s/n 1699-76 or 809-59. Strangely though, in my search for photos on websites in the last week or so, I=99m sure I found a shot of N29DE, but for some bizarre reason, it seems I didn=99t save it! I=99m sure I used the =9C+=9D facility to home in on whether it still had the =9CExperimental=9D title on the cabin roof area and could see it !! Thanks for the newspaper clipping. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BertBerry1(at)aol.com Sent: 24 January 2011 22:44 Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Thanks Barry, Do you have any photos at all of 1699-76 or 680E-809-59? I've attached an interesting newspaper clip regarding 809-59. Bert In a message dated 1/24/2011 3:29:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded =9CExperimental=9D titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as =9CCancelled=9D. This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, it=99s been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I can only presume that it=99s been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as =9CExpiration=9D. Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised =9Csold 3yrs ago, but records lost=9D. Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as =9CSale Reported=9D. N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, =9CExpiration=9D. Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. Best ======================= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "cybersuperstore" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 25, 2011
I thoroughly enjoyed the 1962 news paper page, Barry. Especially the language use. English was much more formal back then. When I read the bit about congressman Frank W. Boykin receiving the Mobile Citizens Award, I immediately thought about them having had mobile phones back then but Boykin was from Mobile, Alabama. It was worth mentioning that Mr. Boykin was honored at "a $12.50 a plate" banquet. How times have changed, huh? Something else I didn't know was, back then, the word solon was used to refer to a lawmaker. I had to Google it and found that solon refers to an an ancient Greek statesman (638-558 B.C.). That the word was used in the heading and was capitalized didn't help. I read all the stories and advertisements, too. Very educational. Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BertBerry1(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Thanks Barry, Do you have any photos at all of 1699-76 or 680E-809-59? I've attached an interesting newspaper clip regarding 809-59. Bert In a message dated 1/24/2011 3:29:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as "Cancelled". I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded "Experimental" titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, it's been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as "Cancelled". This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, it's been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I can only presume that it's been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as "Expiration". Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised "sold 3yrs ago, but records lost". Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as "Sale Reported". N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, "Expiration". Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. Best ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Collman" <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Subject: FAA Registration cancellations
Date: Jan 25, 2011
Hi Nico, Well, you really have to thank Bert Berry! He has painstakingly acquired many such clippings where a Commander is involved somewhere on the page!! Regarding "solon", every day's a schoolday! (Probably a kindergarten day for me!) Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of cybersuperstore Sent: 25 January 2011 14:03 Subject: RE: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations I thoroughly enjoyed the 1962 news paper page, Barry. Especially the language use. English was much more formal back then. When I read the bit about congressman Frank W. Boykin receiving the Mobile Citizens Award, I immediately thought about them having had mobile phones back then but Boykin was from Mobile, Alabama. It was worth mentioning that Mr. Boykin was honored at "a $12.50 a plate" banquet. How times have changed, huh? Something else I didn't know was, back then, the word solon was used to refer to a lawmaker. I had to Google it and found that solon refers to an an ancient Greek statesman (638-558 B.C.). That the word was used in the heading and was capitalized didn't help. I read all the stories and advertisements, too. Very educational. Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BertBerry1(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: FAA Registration cancellations Thanks Barry, Do you have any photos at all of 1699-76 or 680E-809-59? I've attached an interesting newspaper clip regarding 809-59. Bert In a message dated 1/24/2011 3:29:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: <barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> Hello All, Last week, the following Registrations were cancelled by the FAA. If anybody has any sightings, photographs, or any info at all on any of them, I'd be grateful for a heads-up. I've included info that I have recorded that might be relevant for the following: N29DE, Model 680V, s/n 1699-76 Cancelled January 19th 2011, as "Cancelled". I saw this one at Las Vegas-North Las Vegas Air Terminal on September 23rd 1995. It had faded "Experimental" titles and the s/n plate had been moved & a further plate proclaimed the aircraft had Lycoming IGSO-540-B1A engines! I was told that it had been engineless for about 5 years. Since then, it's been sold twice. First sale was to Robert A Schalit, of Duncan, Oklahoma, but he evidently passed away in April 2008. Second 'sale' was by way of a Court Default Judgment in favour of Mid America Funding Co Inc., of Adrian, Missouri. Interestingly, some Court papers in the FAA file included two zero-time since overhaul Walters M601A engines. N41AW, Model 560F, s/n 560F-1070-26 Cancelled January 18th 2011, as "Cancelled". This has been parked in the open at Dayton-Wright Brothers airport, Ohio since at least October 1999, when I first saw it. Since then, it's been sold twice. First sale was to RG International Aircraft Corp., of Hialeah, Florida (later to Medley, Florida). Second sale was to Best In The Caribbean LLC., of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I can only presume that it's been WFU. I saw it again at Dayton-Wright Brothers in September 2006 and the engines had been removed. Previously, it was OK when seen and photographed at Oshkosh in August 1996. N117MP, Model 680E, s/n 680E-809-59 Cancelled January 21st 2011, as "Expiration". Was owned jointly by Ring Electric Inc & Ring Can Corp., of Memphis, Tennessee. On January 7th 1981, the FAA were advised "sold 3yrs ago, but records lost". Has been listed since May 4th 1981 as "Sale Reported". N3821C, Model 500, s/n 718 Registration Revoked May 21st 1982. Cancelled January 21st 2011, "Expiration". Exact status not known; no accidents traced; nothing via a Google search; no recent photos. Is currently Regd to Dutch Boy Distributors Inc., of Republic, Missouri. However an Application for Registration dated April 1st 1980 has been submitted by Daniel Ray Lewis, of Jacksonville, Florida. No Bill of Sale to him has ever been submitted though. Best ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roland Gilliam <amg3636(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: FW: Ford Truck Sells for $800 Thousand dollars
Date: Jan 26, 2011
From: dongirod(at)bellsouth.net Subject: Ford Truck Sells for $800 Thousand dollars Date: Wed=2C 26 Jan 2011 14:14:30 -0500 Pretty cool Truck 194 7 FORD TRUCK SELLS FOR $800=2C000.00 These pictures show a 1947 ford 1/2 ton pickup truck from Whitby=2C Ontario =2C Canada that was just sold to FORD MOTOR COMPANY of Detroit=2C Michigan =2C USA for the sum of $800=2C000.00=2C plus a new Ford F350 dually truck. This truck=2C according to Ford records=2C is one of only 35 that was order ed and built in 1947 with factory installed.... McCulloch water cooled supe rcharger=2C special carburetor=2C special very low profile air cleaner for the McCulloch=2C due to hood height problem. When installed=2C intake has l ower carb mounting height 'special supercharger intake'=2C (see above air c leaner ) Edmunds finned aluminum heads=2C Fenton cast iron headers=2C facto ry dual exhaust. OTHER OPTIONS ORIGINALLY INSTALLED ON THE TRUCK: Sliding rear window=2C ins talled outside sun visor=2C vacuum powered dash fan=2C factory compass=2C a shtray=2C smokers kit=2C locking steering column=2C dome light=2C inside su n visors=2C bumper mounted fog lights=2C some form of factory cruise contro l with knob & wire in dash. This truck was started being restored by Dave Hill. Dave and his father Len purchased the truck from the farmer who was the ORIGINAL OWNER=2C and who ordered it equipped as it is=2C new in 1947. Dave has added his own custom touches like the early luggage rack metal box in pickup bed rear=2C blue dot twin taillights and other details. Metal c overed spare tire cover. What makes this truck so rare and valuable??? As one of ONLY 35 documented originally built=2C it may be the only remaini ng original numbers matching example that can be authenticated and was by a team of Ford museum employees before the offer and the purchase was made. 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December 27, 2010 - Present

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