Commander-Archive.digest.vol-fk
April 28, 2015 - July 07, 2015
leading edge of the wing and subsequent investigation showed degradation
of strength in the aluminum structure clear back to the front spar.
The aircraft was declared unairworthy and never flew again.
Best Regards,
Barry
| From: | owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
] On Behalf Of Keith
S. Gordon
Sent: 27 April 2015 02:42
| Subject: | Re: Turbo Commander 777? |
Adam,
One of a long line up of 680 or 690 series Commander re-engine ideas
that never got off the ground, at least in a figurative sense.
The original turbine match up was PT-6 engines on the 680FL airframe.
The specific range was terrible; a switch to TPE-331 series was made.
Don't know if the fuel specifics for the Walters are better than the
typical PT-6. If they're not, there might be too much of a sacrifice on
range.
Keith S Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Chairman
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
| From: | stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> |
Sent: Sun, Apr 26, 2015 5:58 pm
Subject: Commander-List: Turbo Commander 777?
This
is an interesting link to a company that wanted to put Walter 601
engines on the
Commander, pair it with a 5-blade MT prop. Site hasn't been updated
since 2000,
so probly not much came of it.
Anyone know naything more about this project?
Also, what are those winglets? Are they proprietary or some alternative
winglet
to the normal ones you
see?
http://www.americanwestaircraft.com/commander.html
Also, has there
ever been any talk of STCing the MT 5-blade prop for the Turbo
Commanders? The
MU-2 has that option and it's the same engine..
--------
Adam
Read
this topic online
here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441356#441356
- The Commander-List Email Forum -
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Turbo Commander 777? |
Hi Adam,
If there is a shot of N55JS with the 5-blade props, then so far it's
eluded being included in my collection.
Best Regards,
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
stratobee
Sent: 27 April 2015 20:58
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Turbo Commander 777?
N55JS had an inflight breakup after being overloaded 1000lbs in bad
turbulence. Don't think the props contributed, but who knows. Is there
a photo of it with the 5 blade MT's?
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441395#441395
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 500B for sale on ebay |
Hello All,
If anyone=99s on the lookout for a 500B, there=99s one being
advertised for sale on ebay for $129,500.
It=99s currently owned by Fleet Guy LLC (dba: Truck Guy), of
Sacramento, California, having been bought in November 2013.
Prior to that it was with Bryan County Sheriff's Office, of Durant,
Oklahoma (Bought in December 2006)
Prior to that it was owned since new by the US Department of
Agriculture, Forest Service.
That=99s it, just 3 owners since Certificated in June 1964.
Serial number is 1450-159
Best Regards,
Barry
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713.
c100284.m3505
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713
.c100284.m3505&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D
29396%26meid%3Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%2
6rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321>
&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29396%26meid%3
Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D10%26me
hot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 500B for sale on ebay |
Team,
About a year ago, I had the opportunity to start the engines and taxi
the 171Z around a little.
There is still the USFS marking on the tail and under the Left wing.
That is USFS ORANGE paint that can not be missed.
I was not able to see if the turbos worked being the aircraft is in Van
Nuys, CA at sea level.
The interior is near original and is basic. There is lots of spare
parts.
The Sheriff Office in Durant, OK did not take care of it very well and
let it go. The annual it went through included new breaks, some hoses.
and both props overhauled. The annual has been done, but not logged.
The aircraft has not been flown since that I know of because the owner
does has not pilots on staff.
There appears to have been deice on the aircraft in the past or when it
was new? Barry could look that up.
The turbos are there, but the cowl flaps are still on the aircraft and
the oil cooler has not been moved behind the firewall which keeps the
heat of the engine area and will allow higher altitude flying and
keeping things cool.
It is listed on Controller.com <http://controller.com/>.
Cash offer would bring the price down.
I have some photos I took of the aircraft if you want them.
It does have the USFS radio system with it, but parts have been removed.
Anyone can call me for more info.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
PHP Agency
6100 Seagull NE
Albuquerque, NM 87109
505-400-8373
> On Apr 29, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Barry Collman
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> If anyone=99s on the lookout for a 500B, there=99s one
being advertised for sale on ebay for $129,500.
>
> It=99s currently owned by Fleet Guy LLC (dba: Truck Guy), of
Sacramento, California, having been bought in November 2013.
> Prior to that it was with Bryan County Sheriff's Office, of Durant,
Oklahoma (Bought in December 2006)
> Prior to that it was owned since new by the US Department of
Agriculture, Forest Service.
>
> That=99s it, just 3 owners since Certificated in June 1964.
> Serial number is 1450-159
>
> Best Regards,
> Barry
>
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713.c
100284.m3505&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D293
96%26meid%3Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%26rkt
%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713.
c100284.m3505&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29
396%26meid%3Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%26rk
t%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321>
>
>
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | 500B for sale on ebay |
Tylor, curious about your comments on the turbos. My 500B is
turbocharged. And it has cowl flaps, and the oil coolers are still
forward of the firewall. I don=99t know that I=99ve ever
seen a Commander without cowl flaps...
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B for sale on ebay
Team,
About a year ago, I had the opportunity to start the engines and taxi
the 171Z around a little.
There is still the USFS marking on the tail and under the Left wing.
That is USFS ORANGE paint that can not be missed.
I was not able to see if the turbos worked being the aircraft is in Van
Nuys, CA at sea level.
The interior is near original and is basic. There is lots of spare
parts.
The Sheriff Office in Durant, OK did not take care of it very well and
let it go. The annual it went through included new breaks, some hoses.
and both props overhauled. The annual has been done, but not logged.
The aircraft has not been flown since that I know of because the owner
does has not pilots on staff.
There appears to have been deice on the aircraft in the past or when it
was new? Barry could look that up.
The turbos are there, but the cowl flaps are still on the aircraft and
the oil cooler has not been moved behind the firewall which keeps the
heat of the engine area and will allow higher altitude flying and
keeping things cool.
It is listed on Controller.com <http://Controller.com> .
Cash offer would bring the price down.
I have some photos I took of the aircraft if you want them.
It does have the USFS radio system with it, but parts have been removed.
Anyone can call me for more info.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
PHP Agency
6100 Seagull NE
Albuquerque, NM 87109
505-400-8373
On Apr 29, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Barry Collman
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> > wrote:
Hello All,
If anyone=99s on the lookout for a 500B, there=99s one being
advertised for sale on ebay for $129,500.
It=99s currently owned by Fleet Guy LLC (dba: Truck Guy), of
Sacramento, California, having been bought in November 2013.
Prior to that it was with Bryan County Sheriff's Office, of Durant,
Oklahoma (Bought in December 2006)
Prior to that it was owned since new by the US Department of
Agriculture, Forest Service.
That=99s it, just 3 owners since Certificated in June 1964.
Serial number is 1450-159
Best Regards,
Barry
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713.
c100284.m3505
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713
.c100284.m3505&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D
29396%26meid%3Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%2
6rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321>
&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29396%26meid%3
Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D10%26me
hot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"
class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
class="">http://forums.matronics.com
class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 500B for sale on ebay |
John,
That was part of a later version of the RPM STC to put the IO-720
engines in to keep them cooler.
The cowl flaps get removed and the opening on the top of the cowling.
The stepping motors from the cowl flaps are used to open and close the
waste gate.
This removed the long cables that were originally used manually.
The moving of the oil cooler to behind the firewall and adding a scoop
under the cowling to duct air over the oil cooler, removes a lot of the
heat in the engine compartment.
It lowers the inlet air temperature to the engine.
Paul Gendron could tell you more.
Tylor Hall
> On Apr 29, 2015, at 2:30 PM, John Vormbaum wrote:
>
> Tylor, curious about your comments on the turbos. My 500B is
turbocharged. And it has cowl flaps, and the oil coolers are still
forward of the firewall. I don=99t know that I=99ve ever
seen a Commander without cowl flaps...
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 1:09 PM
> To: Commander list
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B for sale on ebay
>
> Team,
> About a year ago, I had the opportunity to start the engines and taxi
the 171Z around a little.
> There is still the USFS marking on the tail and under the Left wing.
That is USFS ORANGE paint that can not be missed.
> I was not able to see if the turbos worked being the aircraft is in
Van Nuys, CA at sea level.
> The interior is near original and is basic. There is lots of spare
parts.
>
> The Sheriff Office in Durant, OK did not take care of it very well and
let it go. The annual it went through included new breaks, some hoses.
and both props overhauled. The annual has been done, but not logged.
The aircraft has not been flown since that I know of because the owner
does has not pilots on staff.
>
> There appears to have been deice on the aircraft in the past or when
it was new? Barry could look that up.
>
> The turbos are there, but the cowl flaps are still on the aircraft and
the oil cooler has not been moved behind the firewall which keeps the
heat of the engine area and will allow higher altitude flying and
keeping things cool.
> It is listed on Controller.com <http://controller.com/>.
>
> Cash offer would bring the price down.
> I have some photos I took of the aircraft if you want them.
>
> It does have the USFS radio system with it, but parts have been
removed.
> Anyone can call me for more info.
>
> Tylor Hall
> tylorhall(at)mac.com
> PHP Agency
> 6100 Seagull NE
> Albuquerque, NM 87109
> 505-400-8373
>
>
>
>> On Apr 29, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Barry Collman
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> If anyone=99s on the lookout for a 500B, there=99s one
being advertised for sale on ebay for $129,500.
>>
>> It=99s currently owned by Fleet Guy LLC (dba: Truck Guy), of
Sacramento, California, having been bought in November 2013.
>> Prior to that it was with Bryan County Sheriff's Office, of Durant,
Oklahoma (Bought in December 2006)
>> Prior to that it was owned since new by the US Department of
Agriculture, Forest Service.
>>
>> That=99s it, just 3 owners since Certificated in June 1964.
>> Serial number is 1450-159
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Barry
>>
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713.c
100284.m3505&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D293
96%26meid%3Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%26rkt
%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713.
c100284.m3505&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29
396%26meid%3Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%26rk
t%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>"
class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
>> class="">http://forums.matronics.com
>> class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Vormbaum" <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
| Subject: | 500B for sale on ebay |
Oh gotcha, it was part of the Mr. RPM mod.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B for sale on ebay
John,
That was part of a later version of the RPM STC to put the IO-720
engines in to keep them cooler.
The cowl flaps get removed and the opening on the top of the cowling.
The stepping motors from the cowl flaps are used to open and close the
waste gate.
This removed the long cables that were originally used manually.
The moving of the oil cooler to behind the firewall and adding a scoop
under the cowling to duct air over the oil cooler, removes a lot of the
heat in the engine compartment.
It lowers the inlet air temperature to the engine.
Paul Gendron could tell you more.
Tylor Hall
On Apr 29, 2015, at 2:30 PM, John Vormbaum > wrote:
Tylor, curious about your comments on the turbos. My 500B is
turbocharged. And it has cowl flaps, and the oil coolers are still
forward of the firewall. I don=99t know that I=99ve ever
seen a Commander without cowl flaps...
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B for sale on ebay
Team,
About a year ago, I had the opportunity to start the engines and taxi
the 171Z around a little.
There is still the USFS marking on the tail and under the Left wing.
That is USFS ORANGE paint that can not be missed.
I was not able to see if the turbos worked being the aircraft is in Van
Nuys, CA at sea level.
The interior is near original and is basic. There is lots of spare
parts.
The Sheriff Office in Durant, OK did not take care of it very well and
let it go. The annual it went through included new breaks, some hoses.
and both props overhauled. The annual has been done, but not logged.
The aircraft has not been flown since that I know of because the owner
does has not pilots on staff.
There appears to have been deice on the aircraft in the past or when it
was new? Barry could look that up.
The turbos are there, but the cowl flaps are still on the aircraft and
the oil cooler has not been moved behind the firewall which keeps the
heat of the engine area and will allow higher altitude flying and
keeping things cool.
It is listed on Controller.com <http://controller.com/> .
Cash offer would bring the price down.
I have some photos I took of the aircraft if you want them.
It does have the USFS radio system with it, but parts have been removed.
Anyone can call me for more info.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
PHP Agency
6100 Seagull NE
Albuquerque, NM 87109
505-400-8373
On Apr 29, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Barry Collman
<barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk> > wrote:
Hello All,
If anyone=99s on the lookout for a 500B, there=99s one being
advertised for sale on ebay for $129,500.
It=99s currently owned by Fleet Guy LLC (dba: Truck Guy), of
Sacramento, California, having been bought in November 2013.
Prior to that it was with Bryan County Sheriff's Office, of Durant,
Oklahoma (Bought in December 2006)
Prior to that it was owned since new by the US Department of
Agriculture, Forest Service.
That=99s it, just 3 owners since Certificated in June 1964.
Serial number is 1450-159
Best Regards,
Barry
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713.
c100284.m3505
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713
.c100284.m3505&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D
29396%26meid%3Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%2
6rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321>
&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29396%26meid%3
Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D10%26me
hot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"
class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
class="">http://forums.matronics.com
class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"
class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
class="">http://forums.matronics.com
class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 500B for sale on ebay |
| From: | Gil Walker <wingflyer1(at)aol.com> |
680's don't have cowal flaps . Gil
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 29, 2015, at 3:30 PM, "John Vormbaum" wrote:
>
> Tylor, curious about your comments on the turbos. My 500B is turbocharged.
And it has cowl flaps, and the oil coolers are still forward of the firewal
l. I don=99t know that I=99ve ever seen a Commander without cowl
flaps...
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li
st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 1:09 PM
> To: Commander list
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: 500B for sale on ebay
>
> Team,
> About a year ago, I had the opportunity to start the engines and taxi the 1
71Z around a little.
> There is still the USFS marking on the tail and under the Left wing. That
is USFS ORANGE paint that can not be missed.
> I was not able to see if the turbos worked being the aircraft is in Van Nu
ys, CA at sea level.
> The interior is near original and is basic. There is lots of spare parts.
>
> The Sheriff Office in Durant, OK did not take care of it very well and let
it go. The annual it went through included new breaks, some hoses. and bot
h props overhauled. The annual has been done, but not logged. The aircraft
has not been flown since that I know of because the owner does has not pil
ots on staff.
>
> There appears to have been deice on the aircraft in the past or when it wa
s new? Barry could look that up.
>
> The turbos are there, but the cowl flaps are still on the aircraft and the
oil cooler has not been moved behind the firewall which keeps the heat of t
he engine area and will allow higher altitude flying and keeping things cool
.
> It is listed on Controller.com.
>
> Cash offer would bring the price down.
> I have some photos I took of the aircraft if you want them.
>
> It does have the USFS radio system with it, but parts have been removed.
> Anyone can call me for more info.
>
> Tylor Hall
> tylorhall(at)mac.com
> PHP Agency
> 6100 Seagull NE
> Albuquerque, NM 87109
> 505-400-8373
>
>
>
> On Apr 29, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Barry Collman <barry.collman@air-britain.co.
uk> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> If anyone=99s on the lookout for a 500B, there=99s one being a
dvertised for sale on ebay for $129,500.
>
> It=99s currently owned by Fleet Guy LLC (dba: Truck Guy), of Sacrame
nto, California, having been bought in November 2013.
> Prior to that it was with Bryan County Sheriff's Office, of Durant, Oklaho
ma (Bought in December 2006)
> Prior to that it was owned since new by the US Department of Agriculture,
Forest Service.
>
> That=99s it, just 3 owners since Certificated in June 1964.
> Serial number is 1450-159
>
> Best Regards,
> Barry
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aero-Commander-500B/151648680508?_trksid=p5713.c
100284.m3505&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29396
%26meid%3Ddbef58c992c14d44a0961be364beedf9%26pid%3D100284%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D1
0%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D141577254321
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List" class="">http
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> class="">http://forums.matronics.com
> class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 500B for sale on ebay |
| From: | "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> |
Seems a little steep to me considering the AFTT and the engine times. Looks like
a nice plane, though. And personally, I always enjoy seeing the short snubnose
original - not many of those around anymore.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441529#441529
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Short field takeoff Turbo Commanders? |
| From: | "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> |
I've gone through my POH a million times now on the 680V Century, but can't find
any published short field takeoff numbers, let alone any takeoff numbers with
flaps at all. Did they never publish any or am I missing some pages? Does the
690 models publish flapped takeoffs?
I'm assuming flap use could be used similarly to the piston models. I used 1/3
flap for normal takeoff in the 520, but 2/3 if I needed to really get off quickly.
At 2/3'rds the 520 was a freaking homesick angel - I remember taking off
in 600ft lightly loaded at my home airport easily.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442839#442839
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: TCFG FLY-IN-dine out |
| From: | Dan <daniellfarmer(at)yahoo.com> |
>
> Since this year will be different due to the AOPA convention, I thought we
would all get together for Thursday night chow at The Wines of Colorado for
some creek side wine and dinning about 15 minutes West of Colorado Springs i
n Ute Pass, at Divide, Colorado. See winesofColorado.com
>
> So don't be too late! Friday night is dining at the AOPA convention. Sa
turday night is back at the wonderful Patty Jewett Country Club.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lloyd silverman" <lloydsss11(at)MSN.COM> |
| Subject: | flap control motor 500B |
The interal gear train is striped on the engine cowl flap. Any
suggestions for repair will be appreciated. Lloyd N6290x
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New (Free) Aviation App |
| From: | "gbrasch" <gmbrasch(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Quick update, 18,000 launches, more discounts being added for users, more positive
national press coverage and keeping it free to pilots. Thanks, Glenn
--------
Glenn Brasch
RV-9A Flying
1952 Piper Tri-Pacer
Medevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret)
Tucson, Arizona
Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone App.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443511#443511
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lloyd silverman" <lloydsss11(at)MSN.COM> |
Can anyone help me locate Jeff Smiley? About a year ago he sent the
group a list of available 500B parts. The phone # ihave for him is no
longer in service.
Any help will be appreciated. Thanks, Lloyd N6290X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steele, Bob" <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com> |
Imagine if you will, Captain Dan Farmer's last official take-off occurring
the day before his scheduled retirement from American Airlines.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4292852418001/boeing-787-dreamliner-performs-nea
r-vertical-takeoff/?intcmp=obnetwork#sp=show-clips
Thankfully there were only 2 mild heart attacks - both survived. Unfortuna
tely there were 72 soiled Fruit of the Loom's, including the First Officer'
s.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Legg <aero560e(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Congratulations Capt Dan - setting another shitty company record!
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Steele, Bob wrote:
> Imagine if you will, Captain Dan Farmer=99s last official take-off
> occurring the day before his scheduled retirement from American Airlines.
>
>
> http://video.foxnews.com/v/4292852418001/boeing-787-dreamliner-performs-n
ear-vertical-takeoff/?intcmp=obnetwork#sp=show-clips
>
>
> Thankfully there were only 2 mild heart attacks =93 both survived.
> Unfortunately there were 72 soiled Fruit of the Loom=99s, including
the First
> Officer=99s.
>
>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> |
Moe's 680FP is now for sale on TAP. I know for a fact it's been very well maintained
by Security Aviation at Hawthorne.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443811#443811
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bkirkwoo(at)elp.rr.com> |
Any suggestions on where to get a replacement hydraulic pump, or to have the old
one overhauled? It is for a GO-480 G1B6.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Pump |
I know where there are two- GSO-480 engines off a 680 with hoses and
engine mount.
No log books. They appear complete.
Call me or email me and I will send photos.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 3:47 PM, bkirkwoo(at)elp.rr.com wrote:
>
>
> Any suggestions on where to get a replacement hydraulic pump, or to
have the old one overhauled? It is for a GO-480 G1B6.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on Commander 680V |
| From: | "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> |
Out of curiosity - WHY doesn't SB 208A apply to the 680V, when it applies to the
-W, 681 and 680FL and FLP model? What's so different about the 680V?
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444290#444290
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
your ranks soon.
Glenn Hancock
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tylor Hall <tylorhall(at)mac.com> |
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
> your ranks soon.
>
> Glenn Hancock
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Thanks. We will be there all day Saturday and sunday. Feel free to stop
by. Would live to meet you
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Tylor Hall wrote:
> Glenn,
> I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
> If I can help in any way, let me know.
> It is a very special plane.
> Call me.
>
> Tylor Hall
> tylorhall(at)mac.com
> First Fueling Systems, Inc.
> 401 Monte Alto PL NE
> Albuquerque, NM 87123
> 505-400-8373 Cell
> 505-247-3001
> www.firstfueling.com
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
> your ranks soon.
>
> Glenn Hancock
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steele, Bob" <Bob.Steele(at)kzf.com> |
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you coul
d make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
________________________________
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com<http://www.firstfueling.com>
On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock > wrote:
o:glennh(at)gmail.com>>
Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
your ranks soon.
Glenn Hancock
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
Glenn, good luck on the pre-buy, and I have to echo Tylor=99s
comments. I have spent a few good hours in N680RR with Moe. It is indeed
a special airplane.
/J
> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
> Thanks. We will be there all day Saturday and sunday. Feel free to
stop by. Would live to meet you
>
> Glenn
>
> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Tylor Hall > wrote:
> Glenn,
> I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
> If I can help in any way, let me know.
> It is a very special plane.
> Call me.
>
> Tylor Hall
> tylorhall(at)mac.com
> First Fueling Systems, Inc.
> 401 Monte Alto PL NE
> Albuquerque, NM 87123
> 505-400-8373 Cell
> 505-247-3001
> www.firstfueling.com <http://www.firstfueling.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock > wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico
tomorrow
>> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
>> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure
how
>> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
>> your ranks soon.
>>
>> Glenn Hancock
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
> --
> --glenn hancock
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
>
>
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
month from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
> Glenn
>
>
> If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
> could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ]
> *On Behalf Of *Tylor Hall
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
> *To:* Commander list
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> Glenn,
>
> I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
>
> If I can help in any way, let me know.
>
> It is a very special plane.
>
> Call me.
>
>
> Tylor Hall
>
> tylorhall(at)mac.com
>
> First Fueling Systems, Inc.
>
> 401 Monte Alto PL NE
>
> Albuquerque, NM 87123
>
> 505-400-8373 Cell
>
> 505-247-3001
>
> www.firstfueling.com
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock > wrote:
>
>
> >
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
> your ranks soon.
>
> Glenn Hancock
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard" <Richard(at)flycorp.com.au> |
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
before his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
month from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock > wrote:
>
Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
your ranks soon.
Glenn Hancock
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while
replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to
reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
> Welcome Glenn.
>
>
> I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
> before his passing.
>
> Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Richard
>
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ]
> *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock
> *Sent:* Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
> month from twin cessna convention.
>
>
> Glenn
>
> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob > wrote:
>
> Glenn
>
>
> If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
> could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Tylor Hall
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
> *To:* Commander list
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> Glenn,
>
> I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
>
> If I can help in any way, let me know.
>
> It is a very special plane.
>
> Call me.
>
>
> Tylor Hall
>
> tylorhall(at)mac.com
>
> First Fueling Systems, Inc.
>
> 401 Monte Alto PL NE
>
> Albuquerque, NM 87123
>
> 505-400-8373 Cell
>
> 505-247-3001
>
> www.firstfueling.com
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
> your ranks soon.
>
> Glenn Hancock
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> --
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | suemetzger(at)aol.com |
Good Luck with getting your airplane running --- hope it works out with Moe's airplane.
It holds a special place in our hearts and would love to see it stay
in the family.
Keep us posted.
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2015 3:25 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while replacing
the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to reschedule or
try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard < Richard(at)flycorp.com.au> wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly before his
passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last month from
twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you could make
it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
your ranks soon.
Glenn Hancock
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down
to their level and beat you with experience.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down
to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend
this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out
there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the
flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
> Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while
> replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to
> reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
>
> hopefully will figure it out.
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
>
>> Welcome Glenn.
>>
>>
>>
>> I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
>> before his passing.
>>
>> Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock
>> *Sent:* Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
>> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
>> month from twin cessna convention.
>>
>>
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>>
>>
>> If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
>> could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Tylor Hall
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
>> *To:* Commander list
>> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>>
>>
>>
>> Glenn,
>>
>> I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
>>
>> If I can help in any way, let me know.
>>
>> It is a very special plane.
>>
>> Call me.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tylor Hall
>>
>> tylorhall(at)mac.com
>>
>> First Fueling Systems, Inc.
>>
>> 401 Monte Alto PL NE
>>
>> Albuquerque, NM 87123
>>
>> 505-400-8373 Cell
>>
>> 505-247-3001
>>
>> www.firstfueling.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
>> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
>> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
>> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
>> your ranks soon.
>>
>> Glenn Hancock
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>>
>> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>>
>> *tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>*
>>
>> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --glenn hancock
>>
>>
>>
>> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
>> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>>
>> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
> --
> --glenn hancock
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests?
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main
things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic
stuff as every other plane?
3) Where do you check the oil? I understand its a dry sump engine but
never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says
nothing about this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper
process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine?
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand
these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious
of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown?
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill
one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks?
How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't
give any real detail about it.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit
of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better
source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start
flying them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and
fuel/power settings.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else
so figured I'd try.. :-)
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
> Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend
> this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out
> there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the
> flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico.
>
> Glenn
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
>> Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while
>> replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to
>> reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
>>
>> hopefully will figure it out.
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
>>
>>> Welcome Glenn.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
>>> before his passing.
>>>
>>> Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
>>> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock
>>> *Sent:* Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
>>> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
>>> month from twin cessna convention.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
>>> could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
>>> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Tylor Hall
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
>>> *To:* Commander list
>>> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Glenn,
>>>
>>> I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
>>>
>>> If I can help in any way, let me know.
>>>
>>> It is a very special plane.
>>>
>>> Call me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tylor Hall
>>>
>>> tylorhall(at)mac.com
>>>
>>> First Fueling Systems, Inc.
>>>
>>> 401 Monte Alto PL NE
>>>
>>> Albuquerque, NM 87123
>>>
>>> 505-400-8373 Cell
>>>
>>> 505-247-3001
>>>
>>> www.firstfueling.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
>>> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
>>> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
>>> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
>>> your ranks soon.
>>>
>>> Glenn Hancock
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>>>
>>> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>>>
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>>>
>>> *tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>*
>>>
>>> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --glenn hancock
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
>>> you down to their level and beat you with experience.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>>>
>>> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>>>
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> --glenn hancock
>>
>> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
>> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --glenn hancock
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> |
Hi Glenn
I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate
my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See
responses below.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
logoRED-126x38@72dpi
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests?
I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say
that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have
had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main
things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same
basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I
do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of
elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main
tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake
lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables,
etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank
sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for
oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab
magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the
same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down
gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi.
3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine
nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine
but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says
nothing about this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the
proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine?
I run the engines ROP, just to be safe.
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand
these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just
curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on
this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2
inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach
at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull
back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after
shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are
stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and
eventually become fatigued.
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only
fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left
tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time
but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main
tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and
fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks.
Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good
bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a
better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when
you start flying them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and
fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30
inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere
else so figured I'd try.. :-)
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will
spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it
turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have
cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New
Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight
while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having
to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
before his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
month from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
your ranks soon.
Glenn Hancock
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin
Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since
you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems,
are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow
getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping
I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just
making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on.
Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA
wrote:
> Hi Glenn
>
> I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate
> my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See respons
es
> below.
>
>
> Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
>
> 680F / N6253X
>
>
> [image: logoRED-126x38@72dpi]
>
>
> *Dettmer Architecture*
>
> *663 Hill Street*
>
> *San Luis Obispo, CA 93405*
>
> *805 541 4864 <805%20541%204864> / fax 805 541 4865 <805%20541%204865>*
>
> *www.dettmerarchitecture.com <http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com>*
>
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> So a few question:
>
>
> 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I
> was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that.
> For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no
> problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
>
>
> 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main
> things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same bas
ic
> stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the
> following: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look
> at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access
> door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adju
st
> bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges &
> aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open
> outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, lo
ok
> into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage,
> check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sur
e
> to check pressure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be
> around 200 psi.
>
>
> 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine
> nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine
> but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says
> nothing about this.
>
>
> 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper
> process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run
> the engines ROP, just to be safe.
>
>
> 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand
> these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curiou
s
> of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I
> start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a
> time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots,
> with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle un
til
> touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props.
>
>
> 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown?
> There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the
> mixture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued.
>
>
> 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill
> one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks?
> How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn'
t
> give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fue
l port
> on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few
> gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks
> outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately.
>
>
> I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit
> of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a bette
r
> source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start
> flying them?
>
>
> Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and
> fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 in
ches,
> 2600rpm, 190 knots true.
>
>
> Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere els
e
> so figured I'd try.. :-)
>
>
> Have a good weekend.
>
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
> Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend
> this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out
> there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the
> flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico.
>
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
> Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while
> replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to
> reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
>
>
> hopefully will figure it out.
>
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
>
> Welcome Glenn.
>
>
> I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
> before his passing.
>
> Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Richard
>
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock
> *Sent:* Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
> month from twin cessna convention.
>
>
> Glenn
>
> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
>
> Glenn
>
>
> If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
> could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Tylor Hall
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
> *To:* Commander list
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> Glenn,
>
> I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
>
> If I can help in any way, let me know.
>
> It is a very special plane.
>
> Call me.
>
>
> Tylor Hall
>
> tylorhall(at)mac.com
>
> First Fueling Systems, Inc.
>
> 401 Monte Alto PL NE
>
> Albuquerque, NM 87123
>
> 505-400-8373 Cell
>
> 505-247-3001
>
> www.firstfueling.com
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
> your ranks soon.
>
> Glenn Hancock
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> --
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> --
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> --
>
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> --
>
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.S.Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.S.Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William J Hamilton" <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Glenn,
Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but
look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web
site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team
who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid
documentation.
Or just Google John Deakin.
You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine
monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already
fitted.
With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is
still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far
running LOP.
=9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM
characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane
auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that
corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the
engine is Wright).
Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and
Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT
the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very
very old cylinders for it to be a problem.
None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you
will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell
is 86 octane.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
K.S.Gordon
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders.
I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right
stuff.
A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip
sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there.
You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out.
I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal.
The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe.
No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the
time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was
available.
You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if
they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds
fuel control support for your engines.
Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that
was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the
100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication,
so run ROP.
More, later, but I have to run.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin
Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking.
Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine
problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that
would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to
Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these
rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I
can't put an engine on.
Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA
wrote:
Hi Glenn
I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate
my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See
responses below.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
logoRED-126x38@72dpi
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests?
I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say
that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have
had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main
things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same
basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I
do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of
elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main
tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake
lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables,
etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank
sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for
oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab
magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the
same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down
gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi.
3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine
nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine
but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says
nothing about this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the
proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine?
I run the engines ROP, just to be safe.
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand
these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just
curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on
this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2
inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach
at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull
back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after
shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are
stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and
eventually become fatigued.
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only
fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left
tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time
but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main
tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and
fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks.
Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good
bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a
better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when
you start flying them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and
fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30
inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere
else so figured I'd try.. :-)
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will
spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it
turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have
cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New
Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight
while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having
to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
before his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
month from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
your ranks soon.
Glenn Hancock
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
Bill,
Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking
about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was
different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the
fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run
auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone.
I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is
not No right off the bat.. :-)
Glenn
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton <
wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> Glenn,
>
> Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but
> look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web sit
e, or give
> the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engine
> operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation.
>
> Or just Google John Deakin.
>
> You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor,
> this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted.
>
>
> With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is
> still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far
> running LOP.
>
>
> =9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characteri
stics for 100LL
> are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 octane auto ri
ch
> (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specification,(also
> known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright).
>
> Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and
> Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT t
he
> reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very
> old cylinders for it to be a problem.
>
>
> None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you
> will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell i
s
> 86 octane.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill Hamilton
>
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *K.S.Gordon
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM
> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> Glenn,
>
>
> Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders.
>
>
> I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right
> stuff.
>
>
> A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks
> built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there.
>
>
> You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out.
> I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal.
>
>
> The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe.
>
>
> No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the
> time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was
> available.
>
>
> You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if
> they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel
> control support for your engines.
>
>
> Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was
> when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avg
as
> of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP.
>
>
> More, later, but I have to run.
>
>
> K.S.Gordon
>
> Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM>
> Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00)
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
> Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin
> Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Sin
ce
> you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems,
> are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow
> getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hopin
g
> I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just
> making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on
.
>
>
> Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA
> wrote:
>
> Hi Glenn
>
> I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate
> my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See respons
es
> below.
>
>
> Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
>
> 680F / N6253X
>
>
> [image: logoRED-126x38@72dpi]
>
>
> *Dettmer Architecture*
>
> *663 Hill Street*
>
> *San Luis Obispo, CA 93405*
>
> *805 541 4864 <805%20541%204864> / fax 805 541 4865 <805%20541%204865>*
>
> *www.dettmerarchitecture.com <http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com>*
>
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> So a few question:
>
>
> 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I
> was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that.
> For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no
> problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
>
>
> 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main
> things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same bas
ic
> stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the
> following: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look
> at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access
> door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adju
st
> bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges &
> aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open
> outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, lo
ok
> into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage,
> check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sur
e
> to check pressure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be
> around 200 psi.
>
>
> 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine
> nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine
> but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says
> nothing about this.
>
>
> 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper
> process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run
> the engines ROP, just to be safe.
>
>
> 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand
> these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curiou
s
> of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I
> start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a
> time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots,
> with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle un
til
> touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props.
>
>
> 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown?
> There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the
> mixture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued.
>
>
> 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill
> one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks?
> How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn'
t
> give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fue
l port
> on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few
> gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks
> outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately.
>
>
> I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit
> of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a bette
r
> source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start
> flying them?
>
>
> Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and
> fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 in
ches,
> 2600rpm, 190 knots true.
>
>
> Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere els
e
> so figured I'd try.. :-)
>
>
> Have a good weekend.
>
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
> Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend
> this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out
> there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the
> flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico.
>
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
> Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while
> replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to
> reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
>
>
> hopefully will figure it out.
>
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
>
> Welcome Glenn.
>
>
> I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
> before his passing.
>
> Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Richard
>
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock
> *Sent:* Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
> month from twin cessna convention.
>
>
> Glenn
>
> On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
>
> Glenn
>
>
> If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
> could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Tylor Hall
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
> *To:* Commander list
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World
>
>
> Glenn,
>
> I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
>
> If I can help in any way, let me know.
>
> It is a very special plane.
>
> Call me.
>
>
> Tylor Hall
>
> tylorhall(at)mac.com
>
> First Fueling Systems, Inc.
>
> 401 Monte Alto PL NE
>
> Albuquerque, NM 87123
>
> 505-400-8373 Cell
>
> 505-247-3001
>
> www.firstfueling.com
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
>
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
> to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
> awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
> active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
> your ranks soon.
>
> Glenn Hancock
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> --
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> --
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> --
>
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> --
>
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List *
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>
>
> --
>
> --glenn hancock
>
>
> You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
> down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
>
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Commander-List Hello World |
Good Afternoon Glenn,
Glad to hear that you have attended the Advanced Pilots Seminar taught by
John, George, and Walter. As you will recall, there is a lot of information
fed very rapidly, but the big thing we all need to learn is that all
gasoline engines work the same way and they can all be run LOP if set up
correctly.
Leaner is cooler and cleaner!
That is true whether it is a one long lawnmower or an 18 cylinder Wright
Turbo Compound R-3350.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 7/5/2015 12:19:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
glennh(at)gmail.com writes:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Hello World |
Howdy OB!
I never have had an opportunity to disagree with you, so I'll at least
come up with a humorous counterpoint... For at least one engine, hotter
is better! :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OogKurx66vY
Chris Schuermann
BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Afternoon Glenn,
> Glad to hear that you have attended the Advanced Pilots Seminar taught
> by John, George, and Walter. As you will recall, there is a lot of
> information fed very rapidly, but the big thing we all need to learn
> is that all gasoline engines work the same way and they can all be run
> LOP if set up correctly.
> Leaner is cooler and cleaner!
> That is true whether it is a one long lawnmower or an 18 cylinder
> Wright Turbo Compound R-3350.
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.S.Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
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cnF1ZSwgTk0gODcxMjM1MDUtNDAwLTgzNzMgQ2VsbDUwNS0yNDctMzAwMXd3dy5maXJzdGZ1ZWxp
bmcuY29twqDCoMKgwqBPbiBK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Hello World |
Ya got me Chris!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 7/5/2015 1:31:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
cschuerm(at)cox.net writes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OogKurx66vY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard" <Richard(at)flycorp.com.au> |
Greetings Wing Commander Gordon.
I agree with all you have said.
My personal experiences on this very same aircraft, having spent many
hours flying with Moe.
Twice we wrecked cylinders. Both the rear ones and unfortunately
absolute bastards to change.
My personal feelings and watching the experiences of many of my mates.
Fuel is cheaper than cylinders.
Glenn learn how to operate the engines from someone who owns one. Geared
Supercharged are like nothing you have ever experienced.
Roll up the throttles slowly. Pull them back even slower. You really
have to think about planning your descents.
As Keith says NEVER put the props back into fine on approach and
landing. Never use the props to slow you down.
Never close the throttles. The engines need to be making power ALL the
time. Never let the props drive the engines.
Flying these things is easy. Except the geared ones. Its all about
operating the engines.
I have a nerve that runs from my throttle hand to my brain, then through
my butt and finally ends in my wallet. It is very easy to blow these
things up.
People who generally have no idea or experience will tell you all sorts
of horror stories. Treat them right and you will have the sweetest,
smoothest power you have ever experienced.
There is a wealth of knowledge in this group. Use it.
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
K.S.Gordon
Sent: Monday, 6 July 2015 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Gentlemen,
This is a well worn trail.
To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and
somewhere have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to
show how advantageous the cylinder head temperature drop is.
My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a
fleet of 680FL in nightly freight operations.
When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one
of Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance.
He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide
lubrication that they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what
the engine was designed for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in
the late 1940s and put in production in the early 1950s.
There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you
probably won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference,
other than fuel cost, between ROP and LOP.
The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if
us were raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel
injection at the super charger.
It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander
680-F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to
meet the market challenge of the 680F series.)
I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ...
One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive
engines to the IGSO-540:
On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers
at your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down.
If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough
power moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver,
then increase RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle
application to climb power if needed.
The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side
at all times.
That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a
Duchess last week.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com>
Date: 05/07/2015 07:24 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Bill,
Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're
talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it
was different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane
but the fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you
can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone.
I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer
is not No right off the bat.. :-)
Glenn
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton
wrote:
Glenn,
Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but
look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web
site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team
who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid
documentation.
Or just Google John Deakin.
You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine
monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already
fitted.
With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is
still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far
running LOP.
=9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM
characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane
auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that
corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the
engine is Wright).
Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and
Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT
the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very
very old cylinders for it to be a problem.
None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you
will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell
is 86 octane.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
K.S.Gordon
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders.
I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right
stuff.
A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip
sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there.
You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out.
I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal.
The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe.
No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the
time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was
available.
You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if
they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds
fuel control support for your engines.
Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that
was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the
100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication,
so run ROP.
More, later, but I have to run.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin
Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking.
Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine
problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that
would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to
Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these
rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I
can't put an engine on.
Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA
wrote:
Hi Glenn
I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate
my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See
responses below.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
logoRED-126x38@72dpi
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests?
I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say
that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have
had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main
things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same
basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I
do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of
elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main
tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake
lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables,
etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank
sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for
oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab
magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the
same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down
gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi.
3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine
nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine
but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says
nothing about this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the
proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine?
I run the engines ROP, just to be safe.
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand
these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just
curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on
this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2
inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach
at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull
back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after
shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are
stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and
eventually become fatigued.
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only
fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left
tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time
but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main
tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and
fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks.
Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good
bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a
better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when
you start flying them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and
fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30
inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere
else so figured I'd try.. :-)
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will
spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it
turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have
cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New
Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight
while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having
to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
before his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
month from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On J
~,
_____
g=D3=93
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Hello World |
PS I guess I should have limited my comment as applying to four stroke Otto
Cycle engines.
Any better that way?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 7/5/2015 1:31:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
cschuerm(at)cox.net writes:
--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris
Howdy OB!
I never have had an opportunity to disagree with you, so I'll at least
come up with a humorous counterpoint... For at least one engine, hotter
is better! :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OogKurx66vY
Chris Schuermann
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
Greetings Wing Commander Gordon.
I agree with all you have said.
Thanks, Mate!
After the past 17 years exclusively in Falcon Jets, I've lost a lot of the
knowledge I had, living in and with Commanders since 1978.
Once in a while some of the ideas come back to me, I share it, and then wor
ry if I've just broadcast a bunch of dung.
Best,
"Wing Commander Gordon"
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Past Chairman
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard <Richard(at)flycorp.com.au>
Sent: Sun, Jul 5, 2015 3:39 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World
Greetings Wing Commander Gordon.
I agree with all you have said.
My personal experiences on this very same aircraft, having spent many hours
flying with Moe.
Twice we wrecked cylinders. Both the rear ones and unfortunately absolute b
astards to change.
My personal feelings and watching the experiences of many of my mates. Fuel
is cheaper than cylinders.
Glenn learn how to operate the engines from someone who owns one. Geared Su
percharged are like nothing you have ever experienced.
Roll up the throttles slowly. Pull them back even slower. You really have t
o think about planning your descents.
As Keith says NEVER put the props back into fine on approach and landing. N
ever use the props to slow you down.
Never close the throttles. The engines need to be making power ALL the time
. Never let the props drive the engines.
Flying these things is easy. Except the geared ones. Its all about operatin
g the engines.
I have a nerve that runs from my throttle hand to my brain, then through my
butt and finally ends in my wallet. It is very easy to blow these things u
p.
People who generally have no idea or experience will tell you all sorts of
horror stories. Treat them right and you will have the sweetest, smoothest
power you have ever experienced.
There is a wealth of knowledge in this group. Use it.
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon
Sent: Monday, 6 July 2015 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Gentlemen,
This is a well worn trail.
To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and somewhere
have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to show how adva
ntageous the cylinder head temperature drop is.
My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a fl
eet of 680FL in nightly freight operations.
When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one of
Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance.
He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide lubrication t
hat they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what the engine was des
igned for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in the late 1940s and put
in production in the early 1950s.
There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you probably
won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference, other than fu
el cost, between ROP and LOP.
The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if us w
ere raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel injection a
t the super charger.
It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander 680-
F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to meet the m
arket challenge of the 680F series.)
I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ...
One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive engines t
o the IGSO-540:
On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers at
your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down.
If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough pow
er moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver, then incr
ease RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle application to climb p
ower if needed.
The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side at
all times.
That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a Duc
hess last week.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com>
Date: 05/07/2015 07:24 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Bill,
Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking
about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was differe
nt. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact tha
t the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas
in high output engines is that fact alone.
I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is
not No right off the bat.. :-)
Glenn
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton wrote:
Glenn,
Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but lo
ok up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web site, o
r give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engi
ne operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation.
Or just Google John Deakin.
You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, t
his is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted.
With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still
plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running L
OP.
=9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characterist
ics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 oc
tane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specif
ication,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright).
Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycom
ing for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reas
on this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cy
linders for it to be a problem.
None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you wil
l not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86
octane.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders.
I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right st
uff.
A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks b
uilt in. You'll find the GALLON markings there.
You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've
flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal.
The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe.
No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time
, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was availa
ble.
You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they'
re still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel contro
l support for your engines.
Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was w
hen there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas
of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP.
More, later, but I have to run.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Comm
ander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you
have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are t
here any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting aw
ay from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no
issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I
won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on.
Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA
wrote:
Hi Glenn
I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my
plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses b
elow.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I w
as taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. F
or the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no pro
blems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main th
ings you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic s
tuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the fo
llowing: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at r
udder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door
on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bung
ee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron
hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engin
e nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engin
e past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot t
ube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pres
sure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi.
3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle.
Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never ha
d any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about
this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper p
rocess for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the
engines ROP, just to be safe.
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand thes
e geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of p
roper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start do
wn early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and a
djusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full fl
aps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle until touchdown
so not to drive the engines with the props.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown?
There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mi
xture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued.
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill o
ne tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? Ho
w many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't gi
ve any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fuel po
rt on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gal
lons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard o
f the engines. Fill each tank separately.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit o
f information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better s
ource for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start fly
ing them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel
/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 inches,
2600rpm, 190 knots true.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else
so figured I'd try.. :-)
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend t
his week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out th
ere is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight
anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while r
eplacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to resche
dule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly befo
re his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last mont
h from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you coul
d make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On J
~,
g=D3=93
====
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movement now
that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that. I'm providing
this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commanders and
give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane on top
of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney; it is
only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that business
at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the aux hydraulic
circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational for you
and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Hello World |
It's a rare opportunity - I had to take it! Wishing you and your family
well. I hope to have my bird back in the air in the next few months.
I'd still like to drop in and visit.
cheers,
Chris
BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Ya got me Chris!
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Orth" <mosurf(at)xplornet.com> |
>If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow
nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly
and I'm not in that business at this time.
This disclaimer is probably the most elegant I have ever seen.
Congratulations!
Michael
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: Keith S. Gordon
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2015 4:09 PM
Subject: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all
movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all
Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane
on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her
attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm
not in that business at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be
educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to
your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/05/15
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Commander-List Hello World |
Love To See You!
Please call first so I can tell you of our agreed operating procedures!
630 985-8502 (Land Line)
530 842-8627 (Mobile)
LL22
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 7/5/2015 7:12:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
cschuerm(at)cox.net writes:
--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris
It's a rare opportunity - I had to take it! Wishing you and your family
well. I hope to have my bird back in the air in the next few months.
I'd still like to drop in and visit.
cheers,
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM> |
I didn't get a checklist or don't know how to download it. I'll keep
looking but wanted to reply to a few of you as I've been out at the airport
all day.
I pretty much fly my 310 in the same way you're talking about flying the
commander. I don't push the props forward until I'm almost down on the
ground. I also don't jockey the throttles forward or back as my
grandfather (who started me flying when I was 10) pretty much beat that
into my head. One thing I do though is if I need to come down and don't
want to add too much speed I'll pitch the props more and back off a little
on the Manifold.
I have every intention to learn how to properly fly the airplane and won't
be bringing over bad habits that could cause problems. I want to learn
every system as well as possible and learn all the necessary steps to keep
the airplane flying as long as possible. I do fly LOP everywhere in the
310, mainly because the CHT stays a lot cooler there and I don't lose much
airspeed in the process. Before I do this in the Commander though I will
learn the systems and possible problems. If ROP works better I'm in
agreement that gas is cheaper than cylinders, just like to know as much as
possible for making a decision.
I appreciate all of you tuning in as I was a bit afraid I was buying a
plane that didn't have much support behind it. Its looking like there are
enough of you out there to help me keep it going and that is refreshing.
Yoda, as you guys call him, was nice enough to spend quite a bit of time
talking to me and telling me everything to watch out for. I was trying to
get him to do the pre-buy on it but he's been covered up and I had to get a
shop in TN to go out there with me to get it done. I'm trying to learn as
much as possible myself to make sure they look at all of the important
parts.
The main thing I'm concerned about is the left engine is literally sitting
and emptying itself of oil. It hasn't been flown since last December as
far as I can tell and it had made a puddle for the hour it sat on the ramp
for me to look at it. I've been told it probably isn't anything major and
the shop that does the annual seemed surprised to hear it was leaking as
they said the engines were really tight when they saw them last. I am a
little suspect though as I see oil all over the wings, gear and top of the
wing on both engines, but this may be normal.
Thanks to all of you for all the information. I am soaking it all in.
Glenn
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Michael Orth wrote:
> >*If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
> airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor
> her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm
> not in that business at this time.*
>
> This disclaimer is probably the most elegant I have ever seen.
> Congratulations!
>
> Michael
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Keith S. Gordon
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 5, 2015 4:09 PM
> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Commander-List: AC680F Info
>
> *Glenn,*
>
> *This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.*
>
> *Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all
> movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.*
>
> *This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
> I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all
> Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.*
>
> *Speeds are for a long-body model.*
>
> *If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
> airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor
> her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm
> not in that business at this time.*
>
> *Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
> aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be
> educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to
> your own conclusion.*
>
>
> *Wing Commander Gordon*
> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you
down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William J Hamilton" <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Glenn,
Pleased to hear you found these courses useful, it is re-teaching what
those of us are old enough to remember was normal engine operating
knowledge in the WW II through to the early =9860=99s.
You should try and find a manufacturer=99s handbook for the
engine, published back then, it may have the LOP info. It will certainly
have rpm/boost curves that will be helpful, but are probably not in the
AFM in as much detail.
I have the greatest of respect for John Deakin and his efforts.
Re. Octane, this is the determinant of the =9Cknock
rating=9D of the fuel, and TEL indeed increases the octane rating.
Interestingly, many of the base fuels now available to produce avgas
have a higher =9Cnatural=9D octane rating, and need less TEL
(or other additives) to produce the ASTM specification octane, whether
it is =9Cresearch=9D or =9Cmotor=9D octane.
A long time ago, now, back in my days as a university student, part of
the engineering course was playing with a single cylinder test engine,
with variable compression ratio, to determine the actual octane of a
fuel sample, and playing around with additives, including varying TEL,
and testing the results. Also, of course, testing with various fuel/air
ratios.
One thing we found was that oil companies were a bit naughty about
advertised octane ratings for auto gas, the numbers had more to do with
what the opposition were claiming in advertising than the test results
we derived from a suitably calibrated test engine.
RE. valve seats, despite much recent correspondence on web sites, years
ago TEL also played a part in valve seat life, particularly exhaust
valves, and from the (I would guess) early =9870s, there were
major changes to valve seat material and valves in autos.
Lead as lead naphthalate was also a common high pressure lubricant
additive, for things like diffs. The old engine additive, Bardahl was
essentially lead naphthalate.
Interestingly, the loss of low octane aviation fuels and the widespread
use of TEL created a problem with many old engines, if they had bronze
cylinder heads, the TEL wrecked them very quickly.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Bill,
Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're
talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it
was different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane
but the fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you
can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone.
I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer
is not No right off the bat.. :-)
Glenn
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton
wrote:
Glenn,
Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but
look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web
site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team
who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid
documentation.
Or just Google John Deakin.
You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine
monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already
fitted.
With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is
still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far
running LOP.
=9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM
characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane
auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that
corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the
engine is Wright).
Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and
Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT
the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very
very old cylinders for it to be a problem.
None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you
will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell
is 86 octane.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
K.S.Gordon
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders.
I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right
stuff.
A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip
sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there.
You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out.
I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal.
The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe.
No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the
time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was
available.
You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if
they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds
fuel control support for your engines.
Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that
was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the
100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication,
so run ROP.
More, later, but I have to run.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin
Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking.
Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine
problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that
would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to
Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these
rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I
can't put an engine on.
Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA
wrote:
Hi Glenn
I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate
my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See
responses below.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
logoRED-126x38@72dpi
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests?
I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say
that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have
had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main
things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same
basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I
do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of
elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main
tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake
lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables,
etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank
sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for
oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab
magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the
same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down
gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi.
3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine
nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine
but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says
nothing about this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the
proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine?
I run the engines ROP, just to be safe.
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand
these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just
curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on
this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2
inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach
at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull
back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after
shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are
stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and
eventually become fatigued.
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only
fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left
tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time
but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main
tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and
fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks.
Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good
bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a
better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when
you start flying them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and
fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30
inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere
else so figured I'd try.. :-)
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will
spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it
turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have
cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New
Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight
while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having
to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
before his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
month from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
your ranks soon.
Glenn Hancock
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag
you down to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William J Hamilton" <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Folks,
As a minor point (this might sound a bit the =9C the full
anorak=9D) but this engine was also used in the Piaggio P-166C, as
well as the Queenair 85. I have flown the engine in both the Queenair 85
and the =9Cbig Pig=9D as well as the 680FL.
I can=99t agree more about the engine handling recommendations.
Get the original manufacturer=99s engine manual.
Fundamentally, if I can see your hand moving, you are opening or closing
the throttle too fast.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S.
Gordon
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Greetings Wing Commander Gordon.
I agree with all you have said.
Thanks, Mate!
After the past 17 years exclusively in Falcon Jets, I've lost a lot of
the knowledge I had, living in and with Commanders since 1978.
Once in a while some of the ideas come back to me, I share it, and then
worry if I've just broadcast a bunch of dung.
Best,
"Wing Commander Gordon"
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Past Chairman
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard <Richard(at)flycorp.com.au>
Sent: Sun, Jul 5, 2015 3:39 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World
Greetings Wing Commander Gordon.
I agree with all you have said.
My personal experiences on this very same aircraft, having spent many
hours flying with Moe.
Twice we wrecked cylinders. Both the rear ones and unfortunately
absolute bastards to change.
My personal feelings and watching the experiences of many of my mates.
Fuel is cheaper than cylinders.
Glenn learn how to operate the engines from someone who owns one. Geared
Supercharged are like nothing you have ever experienced.
Roll up the throttles slowly. Pull them back even slower. You really
have to think about planning your descents.
As Keith says NEVER put the props back into fine on approach and
landing. Never use the props to slow you down.
Never close the throttles. The engines need to be making power ALL the
time. Never let the props drive the engines.
Flying these things is easy. Except the geared ones. Its all about
operating the engines.
I have a nerve that runs from my throttle hand to my brain, then through
my butt and finally ends in my wallet. It is very easy to blow these
things up.
People who generally have no idea or experience will tell you all sorts
of horror stories. Treat them right and you will have the sweetest,
smoothest power you have ever experienced.
There is a wealth of knowledge in this group. Use it.
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
] On Behalf Of
K.S.Gordon
Sent: Monday, 6 July 2015 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Gentlemen,
This is a well worn trail.
To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and
somewhere have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to
show how advantageous the cylinder head temperature drop is.
My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a
fleet of 680FL in nightly freight operations.
When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one
of Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance.
He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide
lubrication that they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what
the engine was designed for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in
the late 1940s and put in production in the early 1950s.
There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you
probably won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference,
other than fuel cost, between ROP and LOP.
The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if
us were raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel
injection at the super charger.
It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander
680-F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to
meet the market challenge of the 680F series.)
I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ...
One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive
engines to the IGSO-540:
On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers
at your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down.
If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough
power moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver,
then increase RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle
application to climb power if needed.
The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side
at all times.
That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a
Duchess last week.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com>
Date: 05/07/2015 07:24 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Bill,
Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're
talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it
was different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane
but the fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you
can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone.
I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer
is not No right off the bat.. :-)
Glenn
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton
wrote:
Glenn,
Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but
look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web
site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team
who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid
documentation.
Or just Google John Deakin.
You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine
monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already
fitted.
With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is
still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far
running LOP.
=9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM
characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane
auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that
corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the
engine is Wright).
Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and
Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT
the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very
very old cylinders for it to be a problem.
None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you
will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell
is 86 octane.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
K.S.Gordon
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders.
I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right
stuff.
A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip
sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there.
You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out.
I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal.
The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe.
No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the
time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was
available.
You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if
they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds
fuel control support for your engines.
Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that
was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the
100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication,
so run ROP.
More, later, but I have to run.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin
Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking.
Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine
problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that
would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to
Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these
rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I
can't put an engine on.
Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA
wrote:
Hi Glenn
I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate
my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See
responses below.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests?
I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say
that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have
had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main
things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same
basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I
do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of
elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main
tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake
lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables,
etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank
sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for
oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab
magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the
same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down
gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi.
3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine
nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine
but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says
nothing about this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the
proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine?
I run the engines ROP, just to be safe.
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand
these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just
curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on
this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2
inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach
at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull
back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after
shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are
stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and
eventually become fatigued.
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only
fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left
tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time
but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main
tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and
fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks.
Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good
bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a
better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when
you start flying them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and
fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30
inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere
else so figured I'd try.. :-)
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will
spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it
turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have
cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New
Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight
while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having
to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly
before his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last
month from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you
could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On J
~,
_____
g=D3=93
-= --> http://forums.matron=======
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
Browse, Chat, FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
The old engine additive, Bardahl was essentially lead naphthalate.
I've waited 50 years to find out what Bardahl was. Thank you, Bill Hamilt
on!
~KG~
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Chairman
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: William J Hamilton <wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Sun, Jul 5, 2015 7:56 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
Pleased to hear you found these courses useful, it is re-teaching what thos
e of us are old enough to remember was normal engine operating knowledge in
the WW II through to the early =9860=99s.
You should try and find a manufacturer=99s handbook for the engine, p
ublished back then, it may have the LOP info. It will certainly have rpm/bo
ost curves that will be helpful, but are probably not in the AFM in as much
detail.
I have the greatest of respect for John Deakin and his efforts.
Re. Octane, this is the determinant of the =9Cknock rating=9D o
f the fuel, and TEL indeed increases the octane rating. Interestingly, many
of the base fuels now available to produce avgas have a higher =9Cna
tural=9D octane rating, and need less TEL (or other additives) to pro
duce the ASTM specification octane, whether it is =9Cresearch
=9D or =9Cmotor=9D octane.
A long time ago, now, back in my days as a university student, part of the
engineering course was playing with a single cylinder test engine, with var
iable compression ratio, to determine the actual octane of a fuel sample, a
nd playing around with additives, including varying TEL, and testing the re
sults. Also, of course, testing with various fuel/air ratios.
One thing we found was that oil companies were a bit naughty about advertis
ed octane ratings for auto gas, the numbers had more to do with what the op
position were claiming in advertising than the test results we derived from
a suitably calibrated test engine.
RE. valve seats, despite much recent correspondence on web sites, years ago
TEL also played a part in valve seat life, particularly exhaust valves, a
nd from the (I would guess) early =9870s, there were major changes to
valve seat material and valves in autos.
Lead as lead naphthalate was also a common high pressure lubricant additive
, for things like diffs. The old engine additive, Bardahl was essentially l
ead naphthalate.
Interestingly, the loss of low octane aviation fuels and the widespread use
of TEL created a problem with many old engines, if they had bronze cylinde
r heads, the TEL wrecked them very quickly.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Bill,
Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking
about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was differe
nt. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact tha
t the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas
in high output engines is that fact alone.
I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is
not No right off the bat.. :-)
Glenn
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton wrote:
Glenn,
Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but lo
ok up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web site, o
r give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engi
ne operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation.
Or just Google John Deakin.
You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, t
his is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted.
With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still
plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running L
OP.
=9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characterist
ics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 oc
tane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specif
ication,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright).
Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycom
ing for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reas
on this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cy
linders for it to be a problem.
None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you wil
l not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86
octane.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders.
I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right st
uff.
A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks b
uilt in. You'll find the GALLON markings there.
You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've
flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal.
The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe.
No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time
, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was availa
ble.
You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they'
re still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel contro
l support for your engines.
Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was w
hen there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas
of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP.
More, later, but I have to run.
K.S.Gordon
Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Comm
ander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you
have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are t
here any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting aw
ay from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no
issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I
won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on.
Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA
wrote:
Hi Glenn
I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my
plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses b
elow.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
So a few question:
1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I w
as taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. F
or the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no pro
blems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems.
2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main th
ings you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic s
tuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the fo
llowing: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at r
udder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door
on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bung
ee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron
hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engin
e nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engin
e past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot t
ube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pres
sure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi.
3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle.
Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never ha
d any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about
this.
4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper p
rocess for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the
engines ROP, just to be safe.
5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand thes
e geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of p
roper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start do
wn early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and a
djusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full fl
aps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle until touchdown
so not to drive the engines with the props.
6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown?
There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mi
xture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued.
7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill o
ne tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? Ho
w many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't gi
ve any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fuel po
rt on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gal
lons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard o
f the engines. Fill each tank separately.
I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit o
f information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better s
ource for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start fly
ing them?
Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel
/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 inches,
2600rpm, 190 knots true.
Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else
so figured I'd try.. :-)
Have a good weekend.
Glenn
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend t
his week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out th
ere is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight
anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico.
Glenn
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while r
eplacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to resche
dule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there.
hopefully will figure it out.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote:
Welcome Glenn.
I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly befo
re his passing.
Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas !
Cheers,
Richard
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last mont
h from twin cessna convention.
Glenn
On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote:
Glenn
If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you coul
d make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs.
Bob
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World
Glenn,
I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
It is a very special plane.
Call me.
Tylor Hall
tylorhall(at)mac.com
First Fueling Systems, Inc.
401 Monte Alto PL NE
Albuquerque, NM 87123
505-400-8373 Cell
505-247-3001
www.firstfueling.com
On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow
to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes
awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how
active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining
your ranks soon.
Glenn Hancock
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d
own to their level and beat you with experience.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d
own to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d
own to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d
own to their level and beat you with experience.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d
own to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d
own to their level and beat you with experience.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Boelte <n55bz(at)cox.net> |
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the only r
emaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The hydraulic pr
essure switch developed a leak so that the electric hydraulic pump would hav
e eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure fluctuate between abo
ut zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keit
h said to pull this after take off". I had done it regularly with my own Com
mander but had slipped into complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to make a n
o flap landing and save what little may be there for one last desperate brak
e attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed by the 6,000 ft turn
off using just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic pressure l
oss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had to slow quite
a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locked.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes and
nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200' runway and t
hat huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose wheel up until abou
t 30 kts. and the rudder made directional control easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
> On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon wrote:
>
> Glenn,
>
> This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
>
> Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movem
ent now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
>
> This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that. I'm p
roviding this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commande
rs and give you some operating ideas on your model.
>
> Speeds are for a long-body model.
>
> If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane o
n top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney
; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that b
usiness at this time.
>
> Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the aux h
ydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational fo
r you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusi
on.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
Good Morning Mister Kieth.S. Gordon
You wrote:
"Gentlemen,
This is a well worn trail.
To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and somewhere
have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to show how
advantageous the cylinder head temperature drop is.
My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a
fleet of 680FL in nightly freight operations.
When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one of
Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance.
He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide lubrication
that they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what the engine was
designed for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in the late 1940s and put
in production in the early 1950s.
There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you probably
won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference, other than
fuel cost, between ROP and LOP.
The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if us
were raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel injection
at the super charger.
It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander
680-F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to meet the
market challenge of the 680F series.)
I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ...
One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive engines
to the IGSO-540:
On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers
at your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down.
If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough
power moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver, then
increase RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle application to climb
power if needed.
The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side
at all times.
That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a
Duchess last week.
K.S.Gordon"
Those words are obviously written from experience.
Wonderful data. My limited experience with the engine in question was
during the late 1950's.
I have never experienced the valve guide problem you mention. No doubt it
DID happen though my feeling is that further investigation would find that
the leaded fuel was not the needed fix!
Had to be something else.
However, all of your operating techniques work great for everything from a
Continental 65 in a J-3 Cub to a Turbo Compound Wright 3350 in a Douglas
DC-7. Wish I had written them myself!
We still teach way too many old wives tales based on bad, though
effective, WWII expediency training.
Thank You!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
(Active Flight instructor since 1949)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca> |
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and with no
flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of the runway
it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch which finished
the plane for me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte wrote:
> Keith,
>
> About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the
> only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The
> hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric hydraulic
> pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure
> fluctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd.
> Pump CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after take off". I had done it
> regularly with my own Commander but had slipped into complacency.
>
> Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to make
> a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one last desperate
> brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed by the 6,000 ft
> turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
>
> Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic pressure
> loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had to slow
> quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locked.
>
> The landing and roll out were uneventful.
>
> Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes
> and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200' runway
> and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose wheel up
> until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional control easy.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
>
> Bill
>
> On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon wrote:
>
> *Glenn,*
>
> *This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.*
>
> *Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all
> movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.*
>
> *This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
> I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all
> Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.*
>
> *Speeds are for a long-body model.*
>
> *If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
> airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor
> her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm
> not in that business at this time.*
>
> *Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
> aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be
> educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to
> your own conclusion.*
>
>
> *Wing Commander Gordon *
> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>
>
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
Bill,
Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the work your put
into your MR RPM.
I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one 680FLP) all
turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my bonnet about
disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in very clear terms while
I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at this hangar in Hayward 25+
years ago.
I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the perspective of
Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did have a breaker type switch
for the electric aux pump specifically to disable it it cruise.
I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux hydraulic pumps.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and with no flaps,
brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of the runway it rolled
off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch which finished the plane for
me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte wrote:
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the only remaining
Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The hydraulic pressure
switch developed a leak so that the electric hydraulic pump would have eventually
run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure fluctuate between about zero
and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to
pull this after take off". I had done it regularly with my own Commander but had
slipped into complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to make a no
flap landing and save what little may be there for one last desperate brake attempt.
As it turned out I was down to walking speed by the 6,000 ft turnoff using
just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic pressure loss.
It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had to slow quite a bit
and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locked.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes and nose
wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200' runway and that huge
AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose wheel up until about 30 kts.
and the rudder made directional control easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft(at)aol.com> wrote:
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movement
now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commanders
and give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane
on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney;
it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that
business at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational
for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nick Martin" <nick(at)container.com> |
Wing Commander Gordon,
We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight we
pulled the breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing ..Since
then our practice is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before
takeoff..Is there a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and
pull later ? ( possibly steering and breaks )..thanks,Nick N674nm
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S.
Gordon
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Bill,
Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the work
your put into your MR RPM.
I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one
680FLP) all turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my
bonnet about disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in
very clear terms while I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at
this hangar in Hayward 25+ years ago.
I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the
perspective of Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did
have a breaker type switch for the electric aux pump specifically to
disable it it cruise.
I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux
hydraulic pumps.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and with
no flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of the
runway it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch which
finished the plane for me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte wrote:
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the
only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The
hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric
hydraulic pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic
pressure fluctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled
the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after take off". I
had done it regularly with my own Commander but had slipped into
complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to
make a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one last
desperate brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed by
the 6,000 ft turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic
pressure loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had
to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and
locked.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes
and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200'
runway and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose
wheel up until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional control
easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft(at)aol.com> wrote:
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all
movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all
Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane
on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her
attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm
not in that business at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be
educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to
your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-= --> http://forums.matron=======
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
Browse, Chat, FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
Is there a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and pull later ?
Nick,
Yes. If a meteor where to strike your Commander in just the right place, you'd
lose hydraulic fluid during taxi, meaning you'd lose nose wheel steering and
brakes.
A Turbo Commander has the advantage of beta range on the props; you can always
stop, (back up if you need to) and steer with differential beta / power.
Of course, if you did disable your aux pump after engines start and noticed you
lost hydraulic pressure, you could re-engage the breaker if you had your wits
about you, and have an easier time of steering back to the ramp.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Martin <nick(at)container.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 12:29 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Wing Commander Gordon,
We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight we pulled the
breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing ..Since then our practice
is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before takeoff..Is there a reason to leave
the breaker in before takeoff and pull later ? ( possibly steering and breaks
)..thanks,Nick N674nm
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Bill,
Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the work your put
into your MR RPM.
I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one 680FLP) all
turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my bonnet about
disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in very clear terms while
I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at this hangar in Hayward 25+
years ago.
I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the perspective of
Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did have a breaker type switch
for the electric aux pump specifically to disable it it cruise.
I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux hydraulic pumps.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and with no flaps,
brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of the runway it rolled
off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch which finished the plane for
me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte wrote:
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the only remaining
Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The hydraulic pressure
switch developed a leak so that the electric hydraulic pump would have eventually
run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure fluctuate between about zero
and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to
pull this after take off". I had done it regularly with my own Commander but had
slipped into complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to make a no
flap landing and save what little may be there for one last desperate brake attempt.
As it turned out I was down to walking speed by the 6,000 ft turnoff using
just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic pressure loss.
It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had to slow quite a bit
and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locked.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes and nose
wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200' runway and that huge
AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose wheel up until about 30 kts.
and the rudder made directional control easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft(at)aol.com> wrote:
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movement now
that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that. I'm providing
this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commanders and
give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane on top
of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney; it is
only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that business
at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the aux hydraulic
circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational for you
and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-= --> http://forums.matron=======
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Vormbaum <john(at)vormbaum.com> |
I had a hydraulic failure in my 500B; a hard line in the wing root
fractured. It would have been a flawless landing, but I was seduced by
fluctuating hyd. pressure AFTER I put the gear down, and before the nose
wheel locked. I thought I had enough pressure to cycle the gear.n
ot the case.
On the bright side, landing at Stockton, I held the nose off until I
lost elevator authority, and veeeeerrry gently set it down on the nose
wheel, which rolled for a bit and then collapsed while still going 5
knots or so. Only consequence was a damaged gear door and one broken
bell crank. Directional control was never in doubt, and with both
engines running, asymmetric thrust made it easy. I think Morris had me
back in the air in a day or two.
The two lessons I learned:
1) Once you put the gear handle down, after a hyd. failure, LEAVE IT
THERE. This was actually beaten into me by Morris and others, but the
beatings evidently didn=99t take.
2) A hydraulic failure in a Commander, even if slightly mismanaged,
isn=99t a crisis unless you have to do some kind of high
performance landing. With enough runway, it matters not.
/John
> On Jul 6, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Nick Martin wrote:
>
> Wing Commander Gordon,
>
> We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight we
pulled the breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing ..Since
then our practice is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before
takeoff..Is there a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and
pull later ? ( possibly steering and breaks )..thanks,Nick N674nm
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
] On Behalf Of Keith
S. Gordon
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
> To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
>
> Bill,
>
> Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
>
> Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the
work your put into your MR RPM.
>
> I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one
680FLP) all turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
>
> To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my
bonnet about disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in
very clear terms while I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at
this hangar in Hayward 25+ years ago.
>
> I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the
perspective of Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did
have a breaker type switch for the electric aux pump specifically to
disable it it cruise.
>
> I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux
hydraulic pumps.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca
>
> To: commander-list >
> Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
>
> I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and
with no flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of
the runway it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch
which finished the plane for me.
> Tom
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte > wrote:
> Keith,
>
> About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the
only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The
hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric
hydraulic pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic
pressure fluctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled
the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after take off". I
had done it regularly with my own Commander but had slipped into
complacency.
>
> Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to
make a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one last
desperate brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed by
the 6,000 ft turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
>
> Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic
pressure loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had
to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and
locked.
>
> The landing and roll out were uneventful.
>
> Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had
brakes and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X
200' runway and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the
nose wheel up until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional
control easy.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
>
> Bill
>
> On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft(at)aol.com
> wrote:
>
>> Glenn,
>>
>> This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as
well.
>>
>> Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all
movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
>>
>> This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all
Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.
>>
>> Speeds are for a long-body model.
>>
>> If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow
nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly
and I'm not in that business at this time.
>>
>> Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be
educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to
your own conclusion.
>>
>> Wing Commander Gordon
>>
>> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>>
>>
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
> -= --> http://forums.matron=======
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
> =C2- <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> =C2- <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
>
<http://forums.matronics.com/>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander
-List <http://forums.matronics.com/>
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>
>
>
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com> |
Question: The 680Fp that I'm looking at has winglets. Did those come
from the factory with those or aftermarket and if aftermarket, how do
they effect the flying characteristics compared to the number in the manual?
Thanks,
Glenn
On 7/6/15 3:55 PM, John Vormbaum wrote:
> I had a hydraulic failure in my 500B; a hard line in the wing root
> fractured. It would have been a flawless landing, but I was seduced by
> fluctuating hyd. pressure AFTER I put the gear down, and before the
> nose wheel locked. I thought I had enough pressure to cycle the
> gear.not the case.
>
> On the bright side, landing at Stockton, I held the nose off until I
> lost elevator authority, and veeeeerrry gently set it down on the nose
> wheel, which rolled for a bit and then collapsed while still going 5
> knots or so. Only consequence was a damaged gear door and one broken
> bell crank. Directional control was never in doubt, and with both
> engines running, asymmetric thrust made it easy. I think Morris had me
> back in the air in a day or two.
>
> The two lessons I learned:
>
> 1) Once you put the gear handle down, after a hyd. failure, LEAVE IT
> THERE. This was actually beaten into me by Morris and others, but the
> beatings evidently didnt take.
> 2) A hydraulic failure in a Commander, even if slightly mismanaged,
> isnt a crisis unless you have to do some kind of high performance
> landing. With enough runway, it matters not.
>
> /John
>
>
>> On Jul 6, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Nick Martin > > wrote:
>>
>> Wing Commander Gordon,
>>
>> We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight we
>> pulled the breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing
>> ..Since then our practice is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before
>> takeoff..Is there a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and
>> pull later ? ( possibly steering and breaks )..thanks,Nick N674nm
>>
>> *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On
>> Behalf Of *Keith S. Gordon
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
>> *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
>>
>> *Bill,
>>
>> Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
>>
>> Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the
>> work your put into your MR RPM.
>>
>> I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one
>> 680FLP) all turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
>>
>> To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my
>> bonnet about disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in
>> very clear terms while I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at
>> this hangar in Hayward 25+ years ago.
>>
>> I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the
>> perspective of Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did
>> have a breaker type switch for the electric aux pump specifically to
>> disable it it cruise.
>>
>> I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux
>> hydraulic pumps.
>>
>> Wing Commander Gordon*
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca
>> >
>> To: commander-list > >
>> Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
>> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
>>
>> I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and
>> with no flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end
>> of the runway it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a
>> ditch which finished the plane for me.
>> Tom
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte > > wrote:
>> Keith,
>>
>> About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in
>> the only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth.
>> The hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric
>> hydraulic pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic
>> pressure fluctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately
>> pulled the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after
>> take off". I had done it regularly with my own Commander but had
>> slipped into complacency.
>>
>> Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to
>> make a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one last
>> desperate brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed
>> by the 6,000 ft turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
>>
>> Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic
>> pressure loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I
>> had to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and
>> locked.
>>
>> The landing and roll out were uneventful.
>>
>> Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had
>> brakes and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X
>> 200' runway and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the
>> nose wheel up until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional
>> control easy.
>>
>> Kindest regards,
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft(at)aol.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> *Glenn,*
>>>
>>> *This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.*
>>>
>>> *Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for
>>> all movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.*
>>>
>>> *This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of
>>> that. I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will
>>> work in all Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.*
>>>
>>> *Speeds are for a long-body model.*
>>>
>>> *If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
>>> airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved
>>> widow nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught
>>> how to fly and I'm not in that business at this time.*
>>>
>>> *Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling
>>> the aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will
>>> be educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can
>>> come to your own conclusion.*
>>>
>>>
>>> */Wing Commander Gordon/*
>>>
>>> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>>>
>>>
>> * " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> |
The winglets are aftermarket on all piston Commanders (and most Turbines).
Hopefully they're AeroDyne (Commander Aero of Ohio) and not some of knock-
offs that I've seen. Sir Barry should be able to tell you what's on (soon
to be) your plane.
AeroDyne (ala Dick Wartinger) had the winglets for the Aero Commanders test
ed in the wind tunnel at Wright-Patterson. According to Dick, it was deter
mined they were "as good as could be" aerodynamically and are built by a sh
op with PMA approval that makes aircraft structural parts.
Reports from owners vary -- some say they see a 5 KIAS increase in speed, s
ome say they see nothing.
Even Dick Wartinger said the real performance booster are the flap gap seal
s.
Certainly there's a number of owners on the list that can give you their re
al world experience.
They should not affect V speeds at all; no recertification flight testing w
as done to change the flight manual as far as I know. Bill Leff may have m
ore insight, if he's listening in.
By the way, do the winglets have reocognition lights? Those alone are wort
h the install price. in my opinion.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Question: The 680Fp that I'm looking at has winglets. Did those come fro
m the factory with those or aftermarket and if aftermarket, how do they eff
ect the flying characteristics compared to the number in the manual?
Thanks,
Glenn
On 7/6/15 3:55 PM, John Vormbaum wrote:
I had a hydraulic failure in my 500B; a hard line in the wing root fractur
ed. It would have been a flawless landing, but I was seduced by fluctuating
hyd. pressure AFTER I put the gear down, and before the nose wheel locked.
I thought I had enough pressure to cycle the gear.not the case.
On the bright side, landing at Stockton, I held the nose off until I lost e
levator authority, and veeeeerrry gently set it down on the nose wheel, whi
ch rolled for a bit and then collapsed while still going 5 knots or so. Onl
y consequence was a damaged gear door and one broken bell crank. Directiona
l control was never in doubt, and with both engines running, asymmetric thr
ust made it easy. I think Morris had me back in the air in a day or two.
The two lessons I learned:
1) Once you put the gear handle down, after a hyd. failure, LEAVE IT THERE.
This was actually beaten into me by Morris and others, but the beatings ev
idently didn=99t take.
2) A hydraulic failure in a Commander, even if slightly mismanaged, isn
=99t a crisis unless you have to do some kind of high performance landin
g. With enough runway, it matters not.
/John
On Jul 6, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Nick Martin < nick(at)container.com> wrote:
Wing Commander Gordon,
We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight w
e pulled the breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing ..Since t
hen our practice is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before takeoff..Is th
ere a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and pull later ? ( poss
ibly steering and breaks )..thanks,Nick N674nm
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:o
wner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Bill,
Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the work yo
ur put into your MR RPM.
I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one 680FL
P) all turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my bonne
t about disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in very clear
terms while I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at this hangar in H
ayward 25+ years ago.
I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the perspect
ive of Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did have a breake
r type switch for the electric aux pump specifically to disable it it cruis
e.
I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux hydrau
lic pumps.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>
To: commander-list
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure
and with no flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of
the runway it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch whic
h finished the plane for me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte
wrote:
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic fail
ure in the only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth
. The hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric hydra
ulic pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure f
luctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd. Pump
CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after take off". I had done it reg
ularly with my own Commander but had slipped into complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I el
ected to make a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one l
ast desperate brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed b
y the 6,000 ft turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydr
aulic pressure loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I
had to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locke
d.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps an
d had brakes and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X
200' runway and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose w
heel up until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional control easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft(at)aol.com> wrote:
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questi
ons as well.
April 28, 2015 - July 07, 2015
Commander-Archive.digest.vol-fk