Europa-Archive.digest.vol-bx
July 18, 2001 - August 06, 2001
battery slow cranking is not enough to achieve start. Hence I have fitted
an external power connector. Without this it can be very awkward if for
whatever reason you have a weak battery on a landaway. With the external
power connection getting a jump start from a car or other 12v source is
easy. The standard Piper connectors are very heavy. I used a 50A 3 pin
domestic power connector. The 3rd pin is useful to provide a sense
connection powering an external power light on the panel. The plug and lead
are of the premoulded variety (available from Sears). A pair of 50A croc
clips were crimped onto the ends. The rolled up lead is small enough to fit
in one of the under seat lockers. If anyone would like more details please
send me an e-mail.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William S. Stewart" <bill(at)helixsys.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pulling on the Prop |
Glen Saunders of Rotax told me once that the 912/914 was very easy to hand
prop, and that he had done it several times.
Bill Stewart, N6LB (A098)
----- Original Message -----
From: Garry Stout <gstout(at)us.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Pulling on the Prop
> Thanks to everyone who has responded. To summarize the responses it
> appears that the caution in pushing / pulling the plane around by the prop
> is due to the danger that you might rotate the prop, thus triggering an
> inadvertent engine start. This is particularly important in "GA" aircraft
> equipped with magneto ignitions. With respect to Rotax engines, they
don't
> use a magneto, but rather a CDI ignition which requires something like a
> minimum of 600 RPM to cause a spark at the plugs.........highly unlikely
> that one could achieve that RPM by moving the prop by hand. Is there
> anyone out there who has successfully "hand propped" a Rotax to get it
> started? I'd like to know. Never personally heard of such a thing, but
> who knows. I'm happy to report that no one has mentioned that pushing /
> pulling on the prop puts any unusual strain on the prop hub, or on the
> gearbox, which was a concern of mine. Thanks again to all who responded.
> Happy pulling!
>
> Regards,
> Garry
> N4220S
> (813) 878-3929
> FAX (813) 878-5651, Internet ID Garrys(at)att.com
>
>
> Fred Fillinger (at)post.aviators.net on 07/17/2001
> 12:57:23 AM
>
> Please respond to Fred Fillinger
>
> Sent by: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
>
>
> cc:
> Subject: Re: Pulling on the Prop
>
>
> Garry Stout wrote:
> >
> > I was sitting on the loo this morning, reading my favorite aviation
> > magazine when I read a warning about "never maneuvering an airplane
> around
> > on the ground by pulling or pushing on the prop". For the past 2 1/2
> years
> > that's how I've been moving my Europa around, and that's how I see other
> > Europa owners moving theirs around too. Actually, I don't have any
ideas
> > how I would move the plane around if I couldn't use the prop. Does
> anyone
> > know why we're not supposed to do this? What kind of damage could
arise?
> > Are Rotax powered Europas exempt from this warning because the prop is
> > attached to a gear reduction box instead of directly to the engine
> > crankshaft?
>
> It's not just the gear reduction, but the "mags" on the Rotax ain't
> really mags, but CDI's like on your car which, unlike your car, need X
> RPM on the internal alternator (and CDI's ungrounded - switch on) just
> to achieve a spark. With a Lycoming with Slick mags, and unlucky
> enough to have the key on or a bad P-lead, AND the prop just so to
> clank the impulse coupling, now that's a problem. But even there the
> safety trick is to carefully make sure you're not in a compression
> stroke, and don't turn the prop whilst pushin/pullin (on the shank of
> course). Important, as here in the US, the HMO's no longer give you
> the parrot for the shoulder when they install the Cap'n Hook
> prosthesis for the arm you'll lose.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F, A063
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pulling on the Prop |
"William S. Stewart" wrote:
>
> Glen Saunders of Rotax told me once that the 912/914 was very easy to hand
> prop, and that he had done it several times.
>
> Bill Stewart, N6LB (A098)
Even if the fact that the Rotax logo is on his paycheck is irrelevant,
maybe there is a trick to it. I've seen people prop some pretty big
radials, but you're still overcoming friction and (especially) inertia
in the gearbox reduction. And w/o the ability to prime or an
accelerator pump, and no impulse coupling making achieved RPM
critical, there's a safety issue where it takes several good yanks as
you fatigue and get sloppy on the footwork.
At least, I would be concerned about the 914, which lacks a mechanical
fuel pump. If you're hand propping due to a dead battery, I don't
care how easy it is. I wouldn't fly thing knowing there may be a
problem in the electrical system, which is vital in keeping the go
juice flowing.
Maybe it's just me (is anal retentive supposed to be hyphenated?) :-)
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Pulling on the Prop |
I have a friend who has hand propped his 912. However he says its not that
easy.
Jerry
LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Pulling on the Prop
> "William S. Stewart" wrote:
> >
> > Glen Saunders of Rotax told me once that the 912/914 was very easy to
hand
> > prop, and that he had done it several times.
> >
> > Bill Stewart, N6LB (A098)
>
> Even if the fact that the Rotax logo is on his paycheck is irrelevant,
> maybe there is a trick to it. I've seen people prop some pretty big
> radials, but you're still overcoming friction and (especially) inertia
> in the gearbox reduction. And w/o the ability to prime or an
> accelerator pump, and no impulse coupling making achieved RPM
> critical, there's a safety issue where it takes several good yanks as
> you fatigue and get sloppy on the footwork.
>
> At least, I would be concerned about the 914, which lacks a mechanical
> fuel pump. If you're hand propping due to a dead battery, I don't
> care how easy it is. I wouldn't fly thing knowing there may be a
> problem in the electrical system, which is vital in keeping the go
> juice flowing.
>
> Maybe it's just me (is anal retentive supposed to be hyphenated?) :-)
>
> Regards,
> Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | t Europa CLub website - apologies |
My apologies to all the Netscape users who failed to gain access to
the Europa Club site I announced recently. Your difficulties are
entirely my fault. I made one small error in the pathname for a file,
and carelessly did not check the behaviour of the site with all
available browsers once uploaded. It may have given some versions of
other browsers problems too.
I believe I have now corrected that error, and humbly ask you to try
again. I hope I have not created new problmes for other browsers.
If you do have any problems with any of the pages, I'd appreciate
knowing what browser and version you are using, and what platform you
are running on (Mac, Windows, linux, etc). This information will help
me diagnose faults.
I have replied individually to all those who have given me feedback,
but thanks again in public for all your help.
You will recall that I gave two different URLs:
<http://www.europaclub.org.uk>
and:
<http://home.clara.net/rowil/europa/home.html>
The first is a redirection site, which works using frames, but as
presently set up has the unfortunate side-effect of masking all the
links on our site (including external ones) from your browser's
history and bookmark/hotlist/favourites mechanism. If you want to
pick up all the URLs for your own use, you'll have to start from the
second URL given above. PLEASE NOTE that we cannot guarantee that
will stay the same, so keep awake at the back! In the meantime we
will be trying to provide a more user-friendly access from our own
domain name.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Europa Aircraft" <europa(at)gate.net> |
| Subject: | pa Builder Get Together at Oshkosh |
Hi All,
Europa will be hosting a get together for all Europa Builders, and Europa
Club members at the Europa tent on
Saturday, July 28, 7:00pm. Drinks, and snacks will be served.
This will be a great opportunity for you to meet fellow builders, and get to
know the Europa staff.
If you have any questions, please call. Our number at the office in Florida
is 863-647-5355. Our phone number at our tent during AirVenture Oshkosh
will be: 920-231-2003.
Hope to see you all there!
John Hurst
Europa Aircraft
Lakeland, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Pulling on the Prop |
Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
"Chuck Popenoe"
******************************************************
I for one have ALWAYS hand-propped my Avid Flyer (Cuyuna 430 with CDI
ignition), and my J-3 Kitten (Rotax 277 with points ignition). This
has worked so well that I have removed the pull starter on both aircraft
thus eliminating some 8 lbs. With hand propping and handheld radios
and GPS, we don't need an electrical system, saving an additional 25 lbs.
Light is good!!
Pops
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "shamraz" <shamraz(at)yahoo.com> |
Well what d'ya know.......get ringing!
> ITS HERE AT LAST
>
> A PLANE IS BORN IS NOW AVAILABLE ON VHS - A 2 VOLUME BOXED SET - 180
MINUTES
> IN ALL, DETAILING ALL THE BUILDING THAT WENT ON,
>
> THE FLYING SEQUENCES MAY BE AVAILABLE AT A LATER STAGE.
>
> VIDEOS ARE AVAILABLE BY CALLING THE FOLLOWING NUMBER
> UK CODE + 0117 954 9178.
>
> THE COST IS 19.99. INCLUDING P&P
>
> If you call out of office hours (normal hours are Mon-Fri, 9am-6pm), there
> is a
> voicemail message inviting you to leave your name and number, and TVD will
> call You back the next working day.
>
> Hope you like it
>
> Best wishes Keith Duddy
> Series Producer A Plane is Born
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | you missing copies of Europa Flyer? |
Sorry to bother you all with this.
I just came across two copies of the Europa Flyer, right by where I'd
been packing up some new-member packs for those who'd recently joined
the Club. It looks like either I mis-counted the number I needed, or
else I forgot to put them in one of the envelopes.
If you recently received a new-member pack (Hints & Tips etc) but did
not get copies of EF #28 & #29 in it, please contact me & I will send
them on pronto.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "shamraz" <shamraz(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: A PLANE IS BORN |
Jim,
I'm just the messenger!
You might have to e-mail Keith direct on keith(at)i2itelevision.com . Not sure
if he's on the Europa mailing list. I emailed i2i asking if the series was
going to be released on video sometime ago and judging from the reply
addresses I guess there were a few asking the same question. Hence I got a
bulk reply which I forwarded on to the mailing list.
Regards,
Shamraz
(wannabe)
----- Original Message -----
From: <PreDial(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: A PLANE IS BORN
> Keith,
>
> Is this in VHS format that will work correctly on US equipment?
>
> If not, do you plan to release it for those of us here in the colonies?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jim Butcher A185
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Elmsett 21st July |
Forwarded from Nigel Read re the Elmsett fly-in:
From: "Read, Nigel (N.T.)" <nread1(at)ford.com>
>Subject: Elmsett 21st July
>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 03:10:52 -0400
>
>Please note Elmsett are using the phone no. of the maintenance
>organisation for pilots to call on the day for Briefing etc.
>01473 824944
> If people are waiting to Saturday to call my no. I will not be there.
>
>Nigel Read
>Process Engineering
>Dunton Engineering Centre
>Room GB15/4A-Y04
>int 8-738 1711 ext 01268 401711 fax 401823
>Pager 07626 802889
If anyone on the list gets there, say hello to the Suffolk folk for
me. I did my PPL at Ipswich (of fond memory) and my night rating at
Elmsett & Wattisham.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Stewart" <paul-d.stewart(at)virgin.net> |
Is there anyone still out there? I guess the list has gone even quieter now
that Oshkosh is on. But for any poor souls like me stuck at home still
building - any advice on this one.
Have just bonded in the wing lift/drag pins and the flap drive pin at which
point a few things became apparent:
1) the rear lift pin socket W26 has been completely redesigned and now comes
as three parts.
2) The whole of chapter 27 had been re-written to include this fact and a
hole pile of additional work to install tie rods etc. Good job a ruined a
lift pin and had to ring the factory for a new one otherwise I would have
been none the wiser.
What I now find is that the W26 lift pin socket on the port side 'bottoms
out' on the aluminium plates bonded into the wing root (onto which the lift
pin is bonded) before the pip pin holes align. There is about 1.5mm
discrepancy. I'm not entirely sure the lift pin hole has been drilled and
tapped perfectly horizontal. Any one had similar experience or suggestions.
I think it has been said before, but the quality control of the XS wing to
my mind leaves a bit to be desired.
regards
Paul Stewart #432 XS mono
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers,
I emailed Keith who announced the availability of the video for
home purchase, regarding the NTSC mode. His response:
"At present it is only available in PAL Format but if there is enough
interest (50 +) I can sort that out. K"
Present PAL format price in UK is BP19.95 for two-tape set.
Ferg
A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | lift pin sockets |
Been there, done that. Fortunately I discovered that the pip pin holes
would not align prior to bonding the wing lift pins into the aluminum plates
in the root rib. You apparently missed my earlier posting where I suggested
checking this alignment prior to bonding the lift pin into the root rib.
The manual instructs you to screw the pin into the root rib as far as it
will go - big mistake if you do this (and you apparently did). I early on
realized that there was NO apparent quality control in the manufacture of
the XS wing (see, for example, in the archives my earlier posting regarding
the invisible peel ply left on the root ribs) so I skeptically verified that
all mating items would actually mate before I bonded anything in place.
While I can verify that you are not the only builder with this particular
problem I can not offer any suggestions for mitigating this disaster now
that the lift pins are already bonded. On second thought, there is a
possible easy fix. See the following paragraph.
Check that the lift pins are in the right place relative to the hard points
in the fuselage. I had the choice of relocating the hard points or moving
the lift pins, after already drilling and tapping the aluminum in the root
ribs (obviously I failed to follow my own advice about checking alignment
before drilling). I chose to drill and tap holes that would put the
fuselage hardware squarely in the center of the hard points because drilling
and tapping is much easier than moving the hard points. Here is where two
"wrongs" might make a "right" for you. If you can relocate the lift pins
you can simply (OK, not so simply) cut off the pins you have already
installed and drill and tap for new pins, but of course you need to locate
the second holes far enough from the existing pins - about one hole diameter
distance from edge to edge should be adequate, especially since your
original hole in the aluminum is now reinforced with a steel plug. The very
useful Dremel with a reinforced cutoff disk will cut the steel pin, just not
very quickly.
It gets worse, if you are building a tri-gear. Be thankful you are not. My
manual (30 July 1999 edition) calls for installation of the tie rod between
the W26 assemblies prior to installing the main gear leg sockets. Had I
been foolish enough to follow this sequence it would have been difficult (to
put it mildly) to install the main gear leg socket bracing because once the
tie bar is installed it can not be removed without cutting fiberglass, and
it definitely would be in the way.
For either the tri-gear or the monowheel, installation of the tie bar is, to
put it politely, tedious. Before drilling any holes and before mounting the
attachment "brackets" to the bulkhead behind the seat backs check for
alignment. The sixteen bolts (three each side through the fuselage side and
five each side through the "fish plates," the bracket, and the tie bar) took
me about sixteen hours to install because I blindly followed the manual's
instructions about where to put the brackets and the holes. Without the
tri-gear's gear leg socket reinforcements in the way, the tie bar
installation would have gone much faster but the various parts still would
not have been properly aligned. Nothing fit right, and some of the bolts
are so long that they try to occupy the same space as some other part or
another bolt - at least the bolts are easy to shorten with a hack saw, but
this should not have been necessary. You will also need an aircraft length
drill bit to make the holes in the brackets because even a very small right
angle drive drill can't drill a hole within about one hole diameter distance
from the bulkhead.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: lift pin sockets
Is there anyone still out there? I guess the list has gone even quieter now
that Oshkosh is on. But for any poor souls like me stuck at home still
building - any advice on this one.
Have just bonded in the wing lift/drag pins and the flap drive pin at which
point a few things became apparent:
1) the rear lift pin socket W26 has been completely redesigned and now comes
as three parts.
2) The whole of chapter 27 had been re-written to include this fact and a
hole pile of additional work to install tie rods etc. Good job a ruined a
lift pin and had to ring the factory for a new one otherwise I would have
been none the wiser.
What I now find is that the W26 lift pin socket on the port side 'bottoms
out' on the aluminium plates bonded into the wing root (onto which the lift
pin is bonded) before the pip pin holes align. There is about 1.5mm
discrepancy. I'm not entirely sure the lift pin hole has been drilled and
tapped perfectly horizontal. Any one had similar experience or suggestions.
I think it has been said before, but the quality control of the XS wing to
my mind leaves a bit to be desired.
regards
Paul Stewart #432 XS mono
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: lift pin sockets |
Paul,
Positioning the W26 has been a head ache from a lot of builders. However, when
referring it to Andy (of Europa) he mentioned the following points and it is not
too hard to fix. Keep the pins as already positioned. Once the lift/drag
sockets(W26 and the front one, forgot the code) is positioned on the pins for
alignment position the wings to the fuselage at 2.5 degrees;
1.The holes should be no closer to the side of the metal inserts in the fuselage
than 10mm. Except for the bottom hole which can be a little less (up to 5mm) as
it is a positioning hole and not under tension.
2.If they are then you must reposition the metal insert inside the fuseluge wall
by taking it out from the outside, repositioning it correctly with flox, and
then cover with 3/4? layers of BID overlapping the fuselage skin by 25mm all
round on the outside
3. The front lift/drag pin must have that same 10mm clearance from the edge of
the metal insert. If not, then I, after talking to Neville(Europa), place the
socket at an angle to the insert to accomplish that 10mm clearance.
Talk to Europa about it to confirm the above is correct.
Cheers,
Tim
Paul Stewart wrote:
> Is there anyone still out there? I guess the list has gone even quieter now
> that Oshkosh is on. But for any poor souls like me stuck at home still
> building - any advice on this one.
>
> Have just bonded in the wing lift/drag pins and the flap drive pin at which
> point a few things became apparent:
>
> 1) the rear lift pin socket W26 has been completely redesigned and now comes
> as three parts.
>
> 2) The whole of chapter 27 had been re-written to include this fact and a
> hole pile of additional work to install tie rods etc. Good job a ruined a
> lift pin and had to ring the factory for a new one otherwise I would have
> been none the wiser.
>
> What I now find is that the W26 lift pin socket on the port side 'bottoms
> out' on the aluminium plates bonded into the wing root (onto which the lift
> pin is bonded) before the pip pin holes align. There is about 1.5mm
> discrepancy. I'm not entirely sure the lift pin hole has been drilled and
> tapped perfectly horizontal. Any one had similar experience or suggestions.
>
> I think it has been said before, but the quality control of the XS wing to
> my mind leaves a bit to be desired.
>
> regards
>
> Paul Stewart #432 XS mono
>
--
Timothy P Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch,
NEW ZEALAND
Ph. 0064 03 3515166
email ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Mobile 025 2649325
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JW <xs191(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A Plane is Born |
Ferg (or whomever)
I apologize if I have missed something. I've seen some discussion about
this series, but I still do not know the details as to the content. Can
someone provide a brief description (or URL) explaining what is on this video
series? You might have better odds getting your 50+ interest count if it was
more clear.
Jeff
A191
Fergkyle wrote:
> Cheers,
> I emailed Keith who announced the availability of the video for
> home purchase, regarding the NTSC mode. His response:
>
> "At present it is only available in PAL Format but if there is enough
> interest (50 +) I can sort that out. K"
>
> Present PAL format price in UK is BP19.95 for two-tape set.
> Ferg
> A064
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Thomas" <Peter.Thomas(at)Zoom.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: A Plane is Born |
Jeff
Have a look here, the text below should interest you!
"A Plane is Born, presented by Mark Evans is a brand new 15 part series for
Discovery Home and Leisure and Discovery Wings, in which he not only learns
to fly but also builds his own two-seater aeroplane [Europa XS Tri-gear]"
http://www.aplaneisborn.com
Before the Europa they built a sports car and I think they are now building
a helicopter! Nice work if you can get it.
Cheers
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "JW" <xs191(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: A Plane is Born
> Ferg (or whomever)
>
> I apologize if I have missed something. I've seen some discussion
about
> this series, but I still do not know the details as to the content. Can
> someone provide a brief description (or URL) explaining what is on this
video
> series? You might have better odds getting your 50+ interest count if it
was
> more clear.
>
> Jeff
> A191
>
> Fergkyle wrote:
>
> > Cheers,
> > I emailed Keith who announced the availability of the video
for
> > home purchase, regarding the NTSC mode. His response:
> >
> > "At present it is only available in PAL Format but if there is enough
> > interest (50 +) I can sort that out. K"
> >
> > Present PAL format price in UK is BP19.95 for two-tape set.
> > Ferg
> > A064
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | pa Club mem sec going offline temporarily |
I shall be offline for a few days next week, but will deal with
accummulated input when I get back on. Please be patient if you don't
get an immediate response to your message.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JW <xs191(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A Plane is Born |
Ferg.
Are you going to accumulate the list of 50+ folks? If so, please sign me
up!
Jeff
A191
Fergkyle wrote:
> Cheers,
> I emailed Keith who announced the availability of the video for
> home purchase, regarding the NTSC mode. His response:
>
> "At present it is only available in PAL Format but if there is enough
> interest (50 +) I can sort that out. K"
>
> Present PAL format price in UK is BP19.95 for two-tape set.
> Ferg
> A064
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | hen.....Europa Video |
Cheers,
Jeff (#191) has asked if I will keep a list of those who wish a
two-box copy of A PLANE IS BORN. UKP20 is the present price and 50 orders
for NTSC format is the minimum required.
I'll keep the list, so if you want a copy (don't crap out later)
let me know and will keep a report of progress along the way.
So far:
Ferg
Jeff
Cheers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net> |
| Subject: | alistic airspeeds |
Hi Everyone,
I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United States.
I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
Europa. I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most
of my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Stan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
"me too" please :-)
But I thought from another's post that Discovery Wings in the states was
going to sell tapes from the US broadcasts(?) maybe I'm just dreaming.
Cheers,
Pete Zutrauen
Ottawa, Canada
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: A Plane is Born
Ferg.
Are you going to accumulate the list of 50+ folks? If so, please sign
me
up!
Jeff
A191
Fergkyle wrote:
> Cheers,
> I emailed Keith who announced the availability of the video
for
> home purchase, regarding the NTSC mode. His response:
>
> "At present it is only available in PAL Format but if there is enough
> interest (50 +) I can sort that out. K"
>
> Present PAL format price in UK is BP19.95 for two-tape set.
> Ferg
> A064
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A Plane is Born |
I am interested in the video also. Count me in.
Dave Anderson
Nevada
New builder with deposit down only.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Stewart" <alan.stewart(at)blueyonder.co.uk> |
| Subject: | ng: Detailed performance figures |
Dear Karp and others,
I am about to fit the Europa 'speed kit' and I will happily report any
improvements
which I have achieved. In order to do this I must once again accurately
measure TAS in
my own aircraft, prior to fitting.
I will ensure that the figures will be an honest and fair reflection of my
aircraft
performance.
There are a variety of ways of measuring accurate TAS available to members
on the Web. These
take into account affects of wind on GPS measured speed over the ground.
The one I have chosen measures GPS speed over a triangular course and uses
complex
trigonometry to produce a TAS result, whilst also giving wind direction and
speed.
The pilot is required to fly an accurate track, at constant altitude and RPM
setting
and to record the GPS ground speed and direction flown. The three tracks
flown need not be equally seperated, though for my purposes I have chosen
000, 120, 240 degrees.
Hear is the raw data, based on two sucessive weekends of flying.
NB.
1/ The raw data was mph. Rounding produced (.5) fraction of knots.
2/ One of the tests produced results inconsistent with the others.
3/ I found I was typically able to hold track to +-1.5 degrees.
4/ Speed did vary due to thermals and wind gusting. I measured averages from
figures which varied by +-2 mph.
5/ Max S&L RPM achieved was circa 5750.
6/ I have confidence that the Flydat RPM figures are correct.
7/ The aircraft uses around 17 litres/hr at 5200 RPM.
Unmodified Europa 912 'Classic'
Fixed pitch Warp Drive prop @ around 18 degrees.
Full fuel
Rear C of G
Take off weight: around 1110 lbs.
Test height: circa 1200ft AMSL
Ground Temp: around 15 degrees C
Test 1.1 - Low cruise setting. 4800 RPM (14/07/01)
Track GPS speed (knots)
120 120
240 108
360 103
Result: TAS 111 kts Wind 316 degrees 10 knots.
N.B. This result is slightly discrepant. I have placed a lower reliance on
it.
Test 1.2 - Following week. (22/07/01)
Track GPS speed (knots)
120 111
240 99
360 111
Result: TAS 107 kts Wind 240 degrees 8 knots.
Test 2.1 - Normal cruise setting. 5200 RPM. (14/07/01)
Track GPS speed (knots)
120 129
240 117
360 113
Result: TAS 120 kts Wind 313 degrees 10 knots.
Test 2.2 - Normal cruise setting. 5200 RPM. (22/07/01)
Track GPS speed (knots)
120 123(.5)
240 109(.5)
360 124(.5)
Result: TAS 119 kts Wind 237 degrees 10 knots.
Test 3.1 - Maximum continuous. 5500 RPM. (22/07/01)
Track GPS speed (knots)
120 130(.5)
240 121
360 129(.5)
Result: TAS 127 kts Wind 245 degrees 8 knots.
Test 3.2 - Maximum continuous. 5500 RPM. (22/07/01)
Track GPS speed (knots)
120 128
240 119
360 131
Result: TAS 126 kts Wind 225 degrees 8 knots.
Based on these results, I have concluded the following.
Power TAS.
4800, 107 kts 123 mph.
5200, 119 kts 137 mph.
5500, 126 kts 145 mph.
Frwl 136 kts 156 mph.
These figures are consistent with previous results I've obtained.
It'll be interesting to see how much of an improvement I get with
the new fairings.
Alan
I can supply anyone with a copy of the self installing binary for this. It
comes
in the form of a 26Kb zip file.
Alternatively, I have an Excel spreadsheet and accompanying PDF description.
Alan. D. Stewart
14 Goddard Way 'phone : +44 1245 264186
Chelmer Village work : +44 1245 275104
Chelmsford, Essex CM2 6UR email :
alan.stewart(at)blueyonder.co.uk
office email : alan.stewart(at)marconi.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J Moran" <jmoran01(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Wheel Tire and Rim Questions |
My main wheel recently developed a leak, losing about 1 psi per
10 minutes. On removing the tire and tube, a piece of stiff
cellophane type tape, irregularly shaped and about 1cm square,
was found inside the tire at about the position where the leak
was found in an abraded area of the tube. There were several
linear abrasions in an area about 1.5 cm in diameter with the
deepest being a linear cut about 4 mm long near the center --
the source of the leak. This area is in the sidewall, just
above the tread area, the point where considerable flexure occurs
with the low inflation pressure used on the Europa. The tire is
a McReary Airtrac 7.00X6.
Not having a lot of experience with tubed tires, I am unsure
whether this little piece of tape could have caused so much
damage. The tape was folded back on itself and appears to be a
random scrap. It is not a type of tape I have seen previously so
it was probably in the tire when delivered. Anyone seen tube
damage from a similar benign appearing object?
In addition, I had noted about 1/8 inch movement of the tire on
the rim (based on the slip marks) prior to the leak developing.
I raised the tire pressure from 18 to 21 psi after noting this
slippage and had made about 8 flights at the higher pressure
before the leak developed. I initially expected the leak to be
near the valve stem, caused by the observed slippage, so the
abrasions on the tube were a surprise.
A second surprise was that the tire separated from the rim very
easily using only hand pressure -- tires are usually difficult
to remove from the rim. In fact, in replacing the original turf
tire I had to take it to a tire shop to have that tire separated
from this same rim. The relatively loose fit between the McReary
tire and the Europa rim may be the cause of the observed
slippage... Anyone else noticed this loose fit? Should some
type of stickum be used on the rim to avoid slippage?
More random observations: the tube (and/or the inside of the
tire) seemed to be covered with a slippery silvery black powder.
I assume this is normal and meant to lubricate the tire/tube
interface; best guess is that it was on the inside of the tire as
delivered but I don't actually recall. On some areas of the tube
there seemed to be a thin layer of something similar to rubber
cement and the black powder is embedded into it - it is possible
to rub this stickum and then pull little stretchy pieces of it
off -- perhaps this was meant to stick the rim to the tire but
some of it got mis-placed? I assembled the tire/tube/rim a
couple of years ago and didn't knowingly use stickum or a
tire/tube interface lubricant.
As usual, lots of questions from working on an apparently mundane
item.
John N44EU
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers,
At 1800ED, 2200Z, today we have7 out of 50 committed:
Kyle
Jeff W
Popenoe
Easton
Butcher
Anderson
McDonnell
Cheers,
Ferg A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gte.net> |
Hello All, How about a build question? On the aileron closeout inside the
wing we are instructed to apply two layers of bid after flox down in the
little gap between bottom skin and closeout. Except no flox where the mass
balance boxes go. My question is should the 2 layers of bid go right on
through the box area? Or will that mess up the fit of the box.
Thanks, Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom & Cathy Friedland <tfriedland(at)home.com> |
Hi You All Bright Experienced E-philes,
I am finally installing the rudder-tailwheel cables on a XS mono sans
the rudder mod. The manual is quiet (what is new) about any way to
adjust rudder travel or tail wheel-rudder travel. I have looked for
past advice on how to do so. It looks to me the only way to do so is to
install a pair of turnbuckles both between the rudder horns and the
rudder pedals and the horns. Am I missing something? Is there another
way?
Any advice appreciated.
Tom Friedland XS mono, A079, N96V
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent performance
evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL, requiring
Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
Best Regards,
Larry Graves
AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
Hi Everyone,
I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United States.
I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed Europa.
I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most of
my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it would be
greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Stan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have come
near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants to know
what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914 Europa Tri
gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least two
914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical actuals.
Jerry
LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
performance
> evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL, requiring
> Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
>
> http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Larry Graves
> AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> Hi Everyone,
> I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United States.
> I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
Europa.
> I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most of
> my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
>
> If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it would
be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
> Stan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: lift pin sockets |
21, 2001) at 23.07.2001 09:18:09,
Serialize by Router on PDC-INFOAGRAR/INFOAGRAR/CH(Release 5.0.7 |March
21, 2001) at
23.07.2001 09:18:16,
Paul,
I have the very same situation with W26, although the alignment of the lift pin
is OK and my wing
is an old fashioned foam wing. I see two possible solutions: Either avoid totally
screwing in the lift
pin or file a bit or material away from the socket. I prefer the first version.
Any better ideas?
Regards,
Alfred Buess #097, MK I wing, XS fuselage
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Berner Fachhochschule
Schweizerische Hochschule fuer Landwirtschaft
Dr. Alfred Buess, Direktor
Laenggasse 85
CH-3052 Zollikofen
Tel. +41 31 910 21 11
Fax +41 31 910 22 99
E-mail Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch
Web www.shl.bfh.ch
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realistic airspeeds |
Not sure I agree with this: It may be hard to match, but a 914 engine will
help (especially if you fly at altitude) and all he really did was pay close
attention to details.... fairing bits properly, making sure doors, access
panels and the like were flush, and so on. I believe that he's well into an
XS now, so it'll be interesting to see how fast that goes.
Miles
> I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
> particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have come
> near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants to
know
> what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914 Europa
Tri
> gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least two
> 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
actuals.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "M.F. NOWELL" <mnowell(at)compuserve.com> |
Could anyone out there advise me on tying down a mono wheel classic Europa?
Is it OK to use the outriggers and tailwheel as tie points on the
aircraft, and what do you do about the fact that one outrigger is going to
be clear of the ground?
Are there are any problems with parking a Europa outside (with a cover of
course)?
Thanks,
Martin Nowell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Larry:
That CAFE report was to have been published in the June Sport Av
by my recollection. Any reason why it's taking so long? Do I sense some
reticence for any reason?
rewgards
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Graves <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
performance
> evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL, requiring
> Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
>
> http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Larry Graves
> AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> Hi Everyone,
> I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United States.
> I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
Europa.
> I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most of
> my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
>
> If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it would
be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
> Stan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
"Gem Green"
[ to whom any responses should be sent, not to me - Ed]
*********************************************************
Hello Europa Members,
My husband and I reside in Southern Queensland Australia and have been
considering purchasing an Europa.
Does anyone have one for sale. Please send specifications and price to
rubygem(at)optusnet.com.au.
Thankyou.
Regards Gema
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Putting any editorial bias speculations aside, no one can buy the Classic
Europa anymore.
It seems to me that SportAv publishes those reports for planes that people
can actually
buy and build right now. CAFE would need to do a test on the XS. I guess
they'll have
to wait for Kim to finish his.
Also note that the trigear just recently got a cover story in SportAv.
Shaun Simpkins
A207
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> Larry:
> That CAFE report was to have been published in the June Sport
Av
> by my recollection. Any reason why it's taking so long? Do I sense some
> reticence for any reason?
> rewgards
> Ferg Kyle
> Europa A064
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry Graves <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> > Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
> performance
> > evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL, requiring
> > Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
> >
> > http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Larry Graves
> > AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> > 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> > Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> > Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> > Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
> >
> >
> > Hi Everyone,
> > I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United States.
> > I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
> Europa.
> > I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> > I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most
of
> > my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
> >
> > If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> > consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
would
> be
> > greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Stan
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
A couple of numbers:
Bob Jacobsen's 912S / Airmaster / Warp Drive XS Monowheel has been clocked
at 178MPH at 3000',
if my recollection of Bob's recent e-mail is correct. Was that 100% cruise
or takeoff power?
Dennis Vories claims that his rather special intercooled 914 / Whirlwind
equipped XS monowheel
does 220MPH @ 18,000' (probably the 5 minute max power limit), 200MPH @
100%, and 185MPH @ 75%.
No mention of whether this is TAS, GPS, or what.
These aren't tri-gear numbers, but are reasonably consistent. They would
imply a similarly equipped trigear speed of about
160mph full out at low altitude.
Shaun
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
performance
> evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL, requiring
> Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
>
> http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Larry Graves
> AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> Hi Everyone,
> I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United States.
> I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
Europa.
> I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most of
> my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
>
> If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it would
be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
> Stan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: rudder adjustments |
Tom,
I did exactly that. Turnbuckles between the Stabilizer upright support and
the rear bulkhead. Easily (sort of) accessible to adjust. I raised them
slightly on the support to keep them off the floor and put a few layers of
bid on the floor to protect the floor.
Cheers,
Tim
P.S Your Control Column Leather Boots are on their way. Hope you like them.
Timothy P Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch,
NEW ZEALAND
Ph. 0064 03 3515166
email ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Mobile 025 2649325
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Support Web Site |
Bob Harrison has given us another picture of G-PTAG, this time an air-to-air job
taken by Keith Wilson.
It is at the bottom of Bob's main page of the site (and is a PDF file, please see
the accompanying note if needed).
The site is at http://www.crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk/europa.htm
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
My understanding (and I'm not plugged in to those who know) is that Sport
Aviation has simply been making "editorial decisions" about when and where
they publish the CAFE reports. The magazine has undergone significant
changes in the past two years. I am not aware of any issues that might give
the editors pause, other than possibly that Europa made obsolete the Classic
via introduction of the XS around the time the CAFE foundation was
undertaking their evaluation. I'll ask the EAA folks this week at Oshkosh.
Brien Seeley or Otis Holt of CAFE may know the reason as well.
Despite this, the report IS published and available to the world at the
aforementioned URL:
http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
Best Regards,
Larry Graves
AirCrafters Builder Education Center
140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> Larry:
> That CAFE report was to have been published in the June Sport
Av
> by my recollection. Any reason why it's taking so long? Do I sense some
> reticence for any reason?
> rewgards
> Ferg Kyle
> Europa A064
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ira Rampil <rampil(at)anesthes.sunysb.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Hi Ken,
I recently rode in 914EA a 914T monowheel. At 3000 MSL, OAT 80F and 100
rpm off
red line, Jim Thursby and I did a rectangle course and averaged the GPS
derived GS for each
side - it was 178mph. Obviously speed will increase with altitude. At
3000, I would not expect
any different between the 912 and the 914, but at 10k, the 914 will
still generate 100 HP and the 912 would be down to around 50hp or so.
The trigear will cost about 10 mph or so. Adding the speed kit will
restore about 4-5 mph. A more complete set of fairings migh buy you
back another 3-4mph. With your circumstances I would strongly favor the
914T. Good Luck,
Ira
A224
Karp wrote:
> Hi Everyone,I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the
> United States.I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying
> a completed Europa. I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.I
> would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most
> of my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the
> US. If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
> would be greatly appreciated. Thank you,Stan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Au contraire, the performance of Kim's aircraft is indeed relevant for the
rest of us even if it is only as a benchmark.
Although Kim's build philosophy may include a religious attention to detail
he makes no claims to being a deity, and no god-like powers would be needed
to duplicate his accomplishments. It's all a matter of attitude. N111EU
was built light, and incorporates drag reducing modifications beyond the
factory's speed kit, but any mortal builder could duplicate what Kim has
done. His aircraft may be relatively Spartan (emphasis on relatively,
because it is certainly not austere) compared to, for example, Dennis
Vories' XS (whose interior could be compared to a Lexus) but that's
essential to keeping it light. Since the proverbial free lunch still does
not exist, each of us must choose to build light and go fast, or build plush
and sacrifice speed. Just because most builders seem to prefer to have a
little more of the plush stuff that adds weight and decreases speed is no
reason to exclude N111EU as a valid example of the Europa's performance.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
----- Original Message -----
From: "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
> particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have come
> near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants to
know
> what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914 Europa
Tri
> gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least two
> 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
actuals.
>
> Jerry
>
> LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> > Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
> performance
> > evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL, requiring
> > Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
> >
> > http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Larry Graves
> > AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> > 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> > Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> > Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> > Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
> >
> >
> > Hi Everyone,
> > I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United States.
> > I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
> Europa.
> > I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> > I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most
of
> > my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
> >
> > If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> > consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
would
> be
> > greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Stan
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: List Support Web Site |
Does this aircraft operate from an aircraft carrier? What's that thing that
looks something like a tailhook?
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: List Support Web Site
> Bob Harrison has given us another picture of G-PTAG, this time an
air-to-air job taken by Keith Wilson.
>
> It is at the bottom of Bob's main page of the site (and is a PDF file,
please see the accompanying note if needed).
>
> The site is at http://www.crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk/europa.htm
>
> John Cliff
> Europa Club List Forum minder
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Karp wrote:
> Hi Everyone,I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the
> United States.I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying
> a completed Europa. I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.I
> would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that most
> of my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the
> US. If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
> would be greatly appreciated. Thank you,Stan
Stan,
With 33 hours now on our XS with 912S, we
are getting 140 kts at about 75% and 130 kts
at about 65%. This is with the mono-wheel,
Whirlwind constant speed prop, and the factory
fairings. The speeds were at 6500 feet, GPS
average over two runs in opposite directions
of each other. The percent power is based on
fuel flow, which is about 5.3 gph at 75% and
about 4.5 gph at 65%.
These are fairly preliminary numbers. We
intend to fabricate a fairing for the main gear
and do some more gap sealing before we
get serious about characterizing performance.
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Stewart" <alan.stewart(at)blueyonder.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Realistic airspeeds |
Meanwhile, back on Earth...
I think most ordinary mortals with 'attitude' will fly at speeds similar to
the ones I've quoted.
..and of course, it's not for me to stand in judgement over the performances
which other claim.
One thought though. TAS based on GPS readings is easily over-estimated.
Leaving aside the density/altitude calculations which are frequently aired,
the most common reason is failure to accurately compensate for wind.
It is essential to either:
1/ Fly on a day with zero wind.
2/ Fly DIRECTLY into and away from the wind vector. (pretty difficult to
achieve).
3/ Use a recognised formula to produce TAS from trigonometry.
I suspect that most GPS/TAS calculations which are not performed with
rigourous attention to detail will be over-estimated by a few knots. Arent
simple 'two-way averages' and 'rectangular tracks' are likely to be wrong
unless the weather is calm ?
I have an Excel spreadsheet (4Kb) which relies on averaged GPS speeds from
three, accurately flown tracks. The resulting TAS should be fairly close to
the true airspeed provided:
1/ The aircraft is at constant altitude throughout the test.
2/ The track and GPS speed are fairly constant. (requires a day without
gusts and thermals)
3/ The engine RPM is constant.
4/ The wind direction and speed are constant throughout the test period.
I found that I needed to fly for about 5 minutes per sector, in order for
the GPS reading to average out. I also found it quite hard to hold a track
to within +- 1 degree.
If anyone would like to examine and add constructive criticism of the
method, I'll gladly refine it. I'd like to derive a method that is as fair
and as accurate as possible.
What is the most simple and ACCURATE way to determine TAS ?
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
Au contraire, the performance of Kim's aircraft is indeed relevant for the
rest of us even if it is only as a benchmark.
Although Kim's build philosophy may include a religious attention to detail
he makes no claims to being a deity, and no god-like powers would be needed
to duplicate his accomplishments. It's all a matter of attitude. N111EU
was built light, and incorporates drag reducing modifications beyond the
factory's speed kit, but any mortal builder could duplicate what Kim has
done. His aircraft may be relatively Spartan (emphasis on relatively,
because it is certainly not austere) compared to, for example, Dennis
Vories' XS (whose interior could be compared to a Lexus) but that's
essential to keeping it light. Since the proverbial free lunch still does
not exist, each of us must choose to build light and go fast, or build plush
and sacrifice speed. Just because most builders seem to prefer to have a
little more of the plush stuff that adds weight and decreases speed is no
reason to exclude N111EU as a valid example of the Europa's performance.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
----- Original Message -----
From: "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
> particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have come
> near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants to
know
> what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914 Europa
Tri
> gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least two
> 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
actuals.
>
> Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Not at all contraire. Building light greatly improves T/O and climb but I
think has little effect on speed. Reducing drag increase speed but its hard
for me to see how Kim has acheived the sorts of reduction in drag necassary
to give the speeds that I have heard quoted. I didn't say he claimed to be a
deity, they never do, do they? He's clearly very talented and whilst his
acheivments may set admirable targets for mere mortals I think it would be
appropriate to make it clear that most builders (all that I know of so far)
fail to acheive anything like the figures acheived by Kim.
Jerry
LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Karp" ;
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> Au contraire, the performance of Kim's aircraft is indeed relevant for the
> rest of us even if it is only as a benchmark.
>
> Although Kim's build philosophy may include a religious attention to
detail
> he makes no claims to being a deity, and no god-like powers would be
needed
> to duplicate his accomplishments. It's all a matter of attitude. N111EU
> was built light, and incorporates drag reducing modifications beyond the
> factory's speed kit, but any mortal builder could duplicate what Kim has
> done. His aircraft may be relatively Spartan (emphasis on relatively,
> because it is certainly not austere) compared to, for example, Dennis
> Vories' XS (whose interior could be compared to a Lexus) but that's
> essential to keeping it light. Since the proverbial free lunch still does
> not exist, each of us must choose to build light and go fast, or build
plush
> and sacrifice speed. Just because most builders seem to prefer to have a
> little more of the plush stuff that adds weight and decreases speed is no
> reason to exclude N111EU as a valid example of the Europa's performance.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk>
>
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> > I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
> > particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have
come
> > near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants to
> know
> > what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914 Europa
> Tri
> > gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least
two
> > 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
> actuals.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> > www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
> > Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> >
> >
> > > Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
> > performance
> > > evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL,
requiring
> > > Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
> > >
> > > http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Larry Graves
> > > AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> > > 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> > > Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> > > Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> > > Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Everyone,
> > > I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United
States.
> > > I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
> > Europa.
> > > I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> > > I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that
most
> of
> > > my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
> > >
> > > If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> > > consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
> would
> > be
> > > greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Stan
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clevelee(at)cswebmail.com |
| Subject: | Re: XS aileron closeout |
Kevin,
I did it both ways and recommend cutting the BID to stop at the balance box area.
Similarly, don't be afraid to stuff the flox into the gap between the closeout
and the bottom skin, but no need to build in more weight than necessary -
the radius of the mixing stick at the exposed join will be fine for the BID adhesion.
Going across the balance box area require some cutting away with the Dremel tool.
Cleve
Mono XS A198
Detroit, MI
On Wed, 18 July 2001, "Kevin Klinefelter" wrote:
>
> Hello All, How about a build question? On the aileron closeout inside the
> wing we are instructed to apply two layers of bid after flox down in the
> little gap between bottom skin and closeout. Except no flox where the mass
> balance boxes go. My question is should the 2 layers of bid go right on
> through the box area? Or will that mess up the fit of the box.
> Thanks, Kevin
>
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Realistic airspeeds |
Alan Stewart wrote:
> Meanwhile, back on Earth...
>
> I think most ordinary mortals with 'attitude' will fly at speeds similar to
> the ones I've quoted.
>
> ..and of course, it's not for me to stand in judgement over the performances
> which other claim.
>
> One thought though. TAS based on GPS readings is easily over-estimated.
> Leaving aside the density/altitude calculations which are frequently aired,
> the most common reason is failure to accurately compensate for wind.
>
> It is essential to either:
>
> 1/ Fly on a day with zero wind.
> 2/ Fly DIRECTLY into and away from the wind vector. (pretty difficult to
> achieve).
> 3/ Use a recognised formula to produce TAS from trigonometry.
>
> I suspect that most GPS/TAS calculations which are not performed with
> rigourous attention to detail will be over-estimated by a few knots. Arent
> simple 'two-way averages' and 'rectangular tracks' are likely to be wrong
> unless the weather is calm ?
>
> I have an Excel spreadsheet (4Kb) which relies on averaged GPS speeds from
> three, accurately flown tracks. The resulting TAS should be fairly close to
> the true airspeed provided:
>
> 1/ The aircraft is at constant altitude throughout the test.
> 2/ The track and GPS speed are fairly constant. (requires a day without
> gusts and thermals)
> 3/ The engine RPM is constant.
> 4/ The wind direction and speed are constant throughout the test period.
>
> I found that I needed to fly for about 5 minutes per sector, in order for
> the GPS reading to average out. I also found it quite hard to hold a track
> to within +- 1 degree.
>
> If anyone would like to examine and add constructive criticism of the
> method, I'll gladly refine it. I'd like to derive a method that is as fair
> and as accurate as possible.
>
> What is the most simple and ACCURATE way to determine TAS ?
>
> Alan
>
Alan,
What I didn't mention in my earlier e-mail posting
is that I first fly a number of headings to determine
the wind direction within 10 deg. or better.
I then fly my two reciprical tracks upwind and
downwind. With a worst case wind speed
of 10 kts and a 10 deg error in flying directly
with/against the wind, I figure there will be
an error of 1.7 kts, certainly non-trivial.
Being off 15 deg with a 15 knot wind would
lead to an error of nearly 4 knots, a significant
error.
With a constant speed prop my rpm's are
constant within 10 rpm. I use the autopilot
to maintain course within a couple of degrees
(allowing most of my attention to be on holding
IAS and altitude), and perform the tests in the
morning with typically < 10 knots wind.
Could I get a copy of your Excel spread sheet?
I have seen pointers to such spread sheets in the
past but forgot which website they were located in.
Another issue is how to determine % power.
The Rotax info does not give much in the way
of rpm, manifold pressure vs power data.
We have assumed that the fuel flow is a
resonable measure of % power, based on
100% = 7.1 gph as the reference point for the
912S. Of course this is only approriate at low
altitudes on the non-turbo engines, and at fairly
high power settings (say, 55% and higher). Any
comments on this?
regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
> That CAFE report was to have been published in the June Sport
Av
> by my recollection. Any reason why it's taking so long? Do I sense some
> reticence for any reason?
Not Made in the USA perhaps.............
M
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Realistic airspeeds |
| From: | Ira Rampil <rampil(at)anesthes.sunysb.edu> |
Just how many decimal point digits do you want to compute the TAS to?
Seriously, there is no such thing as a perfect day (except in hindsight of
course). I don't believe the precision and reproducibility of non-military
methods would approach 1%.
Cheers,
Ira
On 7/23/01 2:48 PM, "Alan Stewart" wrote:
>
> Meanwhile, back on Earth...
>
> I think most ordinary mortals with 'attitude' will fly at speeds similar to
> the ones I've quoted.
>
> ..and of course, it's not for me to stand in judgement over the performances
> which other claim.
>
> One thought though. TAS based on GPS readings is easily over-estimated.
> Leaving aside the density/altitude calculations which are frequently aired,
> the most common reason is failure to accurately compensate for wind.
>
> It is essential to either:
>
> 1/ Fly on a day with zero wind.
> 2/ Fly DIRECTLY into and away from the wind vector. (pretty difficult to
> achieve).
> 3/ Use a recognised formula to produce TAS from trigonometry.
>
> I suspect that most GPS/TAS calculations which are not performed with
> rigourous attention to detail will be over-estimated by a few knots. Arent
> simple 'two-way averages' and 'rectangular tracks' are likely to be wrong
> unless the weather is calm ?
>
> I have an Excel spreadsheet (4Kb) which relies on averaged GPS speeds from
> three, accurately flown tracks. The resulting TAS should be fairly close to
> the true airspeed provided:
>
> 1/ The aircraft is at constant altitude throughout the test.
> 2/ The track and GPS speed are fairly constant. (requires a day without
> gusts and thermals)
> 3/ The engine RPM is constant.
> 4/ The wind direction and speed are constant throughout the test period.
>
> I found that I needed to fly for about 5 minutes per sector, in order for
> the GPS reading to average out. I also found it quite hard to hold a track
> to within +- 1 degree.
>
> If anyone would like to examine and add constructive criticism of the
> method, I'll gladly refine it. I'd like to derive a method that is as fair
> and as accurate as possible.
>
> What is the most simple and ACCURATE way to determine TAS ?
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> Au contraire, the performance of Kim's aircraft is indeed relevant for the
> rest of us even if it is only as a benchmark.
>
> Although Kim's build philosophy may include a religious attention to detail
> he makes no claims to being a deity, and no god-like powers would be needed
> to duplicate his accomplishments. It's all a matter of attitude. N111EU
> was built light, and incorporates drag reducing modifications beyond the
> factory's speed kit, but any mortal builder could duplicate what Kim has
> done. His aircraft may be relatively Spartan (emphasis on relatively,
> because it is certainly not austere) compared to, for example, Dennis
> Vories' XS (whose interior could be compared to a Lexus) but that's
> essential to keeping it light. Since the proverbial free lunch still does
> not exist, each of us must choose to build light and go fast, or build plush
> and sacrifice speed. Just because most builders seem to prefer to have a
> little more of the plush stuff that adds weight and decreases speed is no
> reason to exclude N111EU as a valid example of the Europa's performance.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk>
>
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
>> I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
>> particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have come
>> near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants to
> know
>> what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914 Europa
> Tri
>> gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least two
>> 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
> actuals.
>>
>> Jerry
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | rudder adjustments |
Hi! Tom.
IMHO go for the turnbuckles. You will need a bloody wand to adjust them
retrospectively if it becomes necessary. The clearance for the balance
weight travel is very close so fine adjust capability is vital . Also
assists if you can slack them off if you should need to oversize the
tail-plane drive pins.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy Friedland
Sent: 23 July 2001 04:49
Subject: rudder adjustments
Hi You All Bright Experienced E-philes,
I am finally installing the rudder-tailwheel cables on a XS mono sans
the rudder mod. The manual is quiet (what is new) about any way to
adjust rudder travel or tail wheel-rudder travel. I have looked for
past advice on how to do so. It looks to me the only way to do so is to
install a pair of turnbuckles both between the rudder horns and the
rudder pedals and the horns. Am I missing something? Is there another
way?
Any advice appreciated.
Tom Friedland XS mono, A079, N96V
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom & Cathy Friedland <tfriedland(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rudder adjustments |
Thanks Tim
I think I may not initially put turnbuckles between the horns and the wheel. If
adjustments need to be made, they can be added easily enough in the future. I
just need to find some good advice on how much spring tension (or compression)
to start with.
My boots arrived today and they are beautifully made. Thank you so much!
Europaphiles: Our Kiwi Europa and 747 driver, Tim Ward, has a friendly
"leatherman" who does a wonderful job of making control stick boots to Tim's
pattern and directions. They are a real bargain at $20US. Contact Tim if
interested.
Tom Friedland A079 XS mono Jabiru
Tim Ward wrote:
> Tom,
> I did exactly that. Turnbuckles between the Stabilizer upright support and
> the rear bulkhead. Easily (sort of) accessible to adjust. I raised them
> slightly on the support to keep them off the floor and put a few layers of
> bid on the floor to protect the floor.
>
> Cheers,
> Tim
> P.S Your Control Column Leather Boots are on their way. Hope you like them.
>
> Timothy P Ward
> 12 Waiwetu Street,
> Fendalton,
> Christchurch,
> NEW ZEALAND
>
> Ph. 0064 03 3515166
> email ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
> Mobile 025 2649325
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | List Support Web Site |
Hi! Rob.
For your information :- The tail spring is left over from the Mono
construction to satisfy
weight and balance requirements ( the a/c is convertible BTW) the "hook"
like thing is in fact a tow eye with which to winch the a/c backwards up
ramps into the covered trailer.
The tail wheel conversion mod, provides adequate load spread to the fuselage
to use this quite brutally without damage ensuing.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: 23 July 2001 17:12
Subject: Re: List Support Web Site
Does this aircraft operate from an aircraft carrier? What's that thing that
looks something like a tailhook?
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: List Support Web Site
> Bob Harrison has given us another picture of G-PTAG, this time an
air-to-air job taken by Keith Wilson.
>
> It is at the bottom of Bob's main page of the site (and is a PDF file,
please see the accompanying note if needed).
>
> The site is at http://www.crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk/europa.htm
>
> John Cliff
> Europa Club List Forum minder
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Cameron" <chris.cameron(at)ot.co.nz> |
| Subject: | List Support Web Site |
Greetings all.
I'm probably going to be visiting Perth (Western Australia) on business the
week of 6 August. I'd be keen to meet any Europa constructors who may live
near there.
I've only just started construction so any 'war stories' will be greatly
appreciated.
***************************************************************
Chris Cameron Europa #386
chris.cameron(at)ot.co.nz ZK-MYN
cell: +64 21 650 680
Life, don't talk to me about life ....(Marvin - HHGTTG)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: List Support Web Site |
So, it really is a tailhook! :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk>
; "Forum"
Subject: RE: List Support Web Site
> Hi! Rob.
> For your information :- The tail spring is left over from the Mono
> construction to satisfy
> weight and balance requirements ( the a/c is convertible BTW) the "hook"
> like thing is in fact a tow eye with which to winch the a/c backwards up
> ramps into the covered trailer.
> The tail wheel conversion mod, provides adequate load spread to the
fuselage
> to use this quite brutally without damage ensuing.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> On Behalf Of Rob Housman
> Subject: Re: List Support Web Site
>
> Does this aircraft operate from an aircraft carrier? What's that thing
that
> looks something like a tailhook?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: List Support Web Site
>
>
> > Bob Harrison has given us another picture of G-PTAG, this time an
> air-to-air job taken by Keith Wilson.
> >
> > It is at the bottom of Bob's main page of the site (and is a PDF file,
> please see the accompanying note if needed).
> >
> > The site is at http://www.crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk/europa.htm
> >
> > John Cliff
> > Europa Club List Forum minder
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Realalistic airspeeds |
Let's go back to ground school. To keep it simple, consider straight and
level flight: additional weight requires more lift to balance the forces,
but to generate more lift the wing's angle of attack must increase, and at
greater angles of attack more drag is induced. To overcome the additional
drag we have two choices (or a combination of the two): add power or accept
slower speed. Obviously things are not quite this simple because, for
example, if we let the speed decrease that increases the induced drag but
the parasitic and interference drag both decrease for a net reduction in
drag (except in slow flight where the total drag increases as speed is
reduced).
A practical demonstration of the incremental improvement from weight
reduction is provided by some airlines that go so far as to leave most of
the fuselage unpainted, not because they like the look of shiny aluminum but
specifically to decrease fuel burn at cruise (lower weight, same speed,
reduced power, lower fuel burn).
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
Not at all contraire. Building light greatly improves T/O and climb but I
think has little effect on speed. Reducing drag increase speed but its hard
for me to see how Kim has acheived the sorts of reduction in drag necassary
to give the speeds that I have heard quoted. I didn't say he claimed to be a
deity, they never do, do they? He's clearly very talented and whilst his
acheivments may set admirable targets for mere mortals I think it would be
appropriate to make it clear that most builders (all that I know of so far)
fail to acheive anything like the figures acheived by Kim.
Jerry
LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net>
"Karp" ;
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> Au contraire, the performance of Kim's aircraft is indeed relevant for the
> rest of us even if it is only as a benchmark.
>
> Although Kim's build philosophy may include a religious attention to
detail
> he makes no claims to being a deity, and no god-like powers would be
needed
> to duplicate his accomplishments. It's all a matter of attitude. N111EU
> was built light, and incorporates drag reducing modifications beyond the
> factory's speed kit, but any mortal builder could duplicate what Kim has
> done. His aircraft may be relatively Spartan (emphasis on relatively,
> because it is certainly not austere) compared to, for example, Dennis
> Vories' XS (whose interior could be compared to a Lexus) but that's
> essential to keeping it light. Since the proverbial free lunch still does
> not exist, each of us must choose to build light and go fast, or build
plush
> and sacrifice speed. Just because most builders seem to prefer to have a
> little more of the plush stuff that adds weight and decreases speed is no
> reason to exclude N111EU as a valid example of the Europa's performance.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk>
>
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> > I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
> > particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have
come
> > near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants to
> know
> > what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914 Europa
> Tri
> > gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least
two
> > 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
> actuals.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> > www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
> > Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> >
> >
> > > Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
> > performance
> > > evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL,
requiring
> > > Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
> > >
> > > http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Larry Graves
> > > AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> > > 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> > > Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> > > Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> > > Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Everyone,
> > > I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United
States.
> > > I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
> > Europa.
> > > I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> > > I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that
most
> of
> > > my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
> > >
> > > If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> > > consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
> would
> > be
> > > greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Stan
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Cameron" <chris.cameron(at)ot.co.nz> |
Greetings all.
Let's try this again with a reasonable title!
I'm probably going to be visiting Perth (Western Australia) on
business the week of 6 August. I'd be keen to meet any Europa
constructors who may live near there.
I've only just started construction so any 'war stories' will be
greatly appreciated.
***************************************************************
Chris Cameron Europa #386
chris.cameron(at)ot.co.nz ZK-MYN
cell: +64 21 650 680
Life, don't talk to me about life ....(Marvin - HHGTTG)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
> A practical demonstration of the incremental improvement from weight
> reduction is provided by some airlines that go so far as to leave most of
> the fuselage unpainted, not because they like the look of shiny aluminum
but
> specifically to decrease fuel burn at cruise (lower weight, same speed,
> reduced power, lower fuel burn).>
> Best regards, > Rob Housman A070
Rob:
I agree with you in principle, but practically speaking 5 extra
pounds is not going to register any change in cruise at high weights. And
yes, the airlines do make these amazing discoveries. Mine banned smoking as
a community service - your health is important to us - BUT 200 aircraft in
one year saved $1 million because of the permitted reduction in cabin flow.
What a wonderful surprise!!
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | XS aileron closeout |
Thanks very much for the advice all. Makes it very easy and inspires
confidence when those who respond agree! This is really great to be in
contact with so many who have gone before me.
Thanks again, Kevin Klinefelter
Bishop CA
A211 XS Mono
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: XS aileron closeout
Kevin,
I did it both ways and recommend cutting the BID to stop at the balance box
area. Similarly, don't be afraid to stuff the flox into the gap between the
closeout and the bottom skin, but no need to build in more weight than
necessary - the radius of the mixing stick at the exposed join will be fine
for the BID adhesion.
Going across the balance box area require some cutting away with the Dremel
tool.
Cleve
Mono XS A198
Detroit, MI
On Wed, 18 July 2001, "Kevin Klinefelter" wrote:
>
> Hello All, How about a build question? On the aileron closeout inside the
> wing we are instructed to apply two layers of bid after flox down in the
> little gap between bottom skin and closeout. Except no flox where the mass
> balance boxes go. My question is should the 2 layers of bid go right on
> through the box area? Or will that mess up the fit of the box.
> Thanks, Kevin
>
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Stewart" <alan.stewart(at)blueyonder.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Realistic airspeeds |
Anecdotaly, when I flew the 400 or so miles to Skye with an 115 kg
passenger (18st 3lb), I couldn't detect any significant effect on
cruise OR efficiency (from a one up load). My figures have always
been fairly consistent. I would have thought differently.
Maybe it's just lost in the noise. Practice may be different from
theory.
Alan (approaching 400 Europa hours)
PS. Except that I'm getting a little faster over the years. Perhaps my
aim is getting better !
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> A practical demonstration of the incremental improvement from weight
> reduction is provided by some airlines that go so far as to leave most of
> the fuselage unpainted, not because they like the look of shiny aluminum
but
> specifically to decrease fuel burn at cruise (lower weight, same speed,
> reduced power, lower fuel burn).>
> Best regards, > Rob Housman A070
Rob:
I agree with you in principle, but practically speaking 5 extra
pounds is not going to register any change in cruise at high weights. And
yes, the airlines do make these amazing discoveries. Mine banned smoking as
a community service - your health is important to us - BUT 200 aircraft in
one year saved $1 million because of the permitted reduction in cabin flow.
What a wonderful surprise!!
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barahona Alonso, Francisco Javier" <javier.barahona(at)aeasa.com> |
Yesterday my Europa Classic (kit 187, EC-ZDH), first Spanish Europa,
has
flown for first time in the hands of Ignacio Elduayen, a very
experienced
taildrager pilot (Pitts, Sukoi, etc..)
According with him the plane flies superb and it is very easy to
control on
ground.
Unfortunately the flight was too short because of high oil temperature.
I
have the original cowling with the oil radiator behind the water
radiator. I
think that this configuration is not adequate for Spanish climate
(yesterday
ambient temperature was over 35=BAC). I have asked Europa Aircraft for
assistance.
In addition, could anybody in the forum give me some advice about how
to
solve this problem?
Best regards
Javier Barahona
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
"Back to ground school" I like it.
Absolutely correct but this diffrence is SMALL as acknowledged in my earlier
reply. One of the fastest Europas in Europe is also one of the heaviest. Its
easy to confirm just go out and fly your own aircraft full fuel two pilots
and then again half fuel one up. Yes it'll be slower two up but not much. I
would be interested to know what the difference is.
I've done some work on this but not enough. However my own results suggest
the difference on my own aircraft is less than 2 kts at 150 kts for a
difference in weight from 450 kgs down to 350 kgs (multiply by 2.2 if you
want lbs). Now thats not very much so I think I was correct to say weight
has only a small effect on speed. Using a cube rule that suggests a drag
reduction of 4% for a weight reduction of 29%. I don't think Kim saved 29%
of all up aircraft weight?
Try it for yourself and let me know what you get?
Jerry
LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: RE: Realalistic airspeeds
> Let's go back to ground school. To keep it simple, consider straight and
> level flight: additional weight requires more lift to balance the forces,
> but to generate more lift the wing's angle of attack must increase, and at
> greater angles of attack more drag is induced. To overcome the additional
> drag we have two choices (or a combination of the two): add power or
accept
> slower speed. Obviously things are not quite this simple because, for
> example, if we let the speed decrease that increases the induced drag but
> the parasitic and interference drag both decrease for a net reduction in
> drag (except in slow flight where the total drag increases as speed is
> reduced).
>
> A practical demonstration of the incremental improvement from weight
> reduction is provided by some airlines that go so far as to leave most of
> the fuselage unpainted, not because they like the look of shiny aluminum
but
> specifically to decrease fuel burn at cruise (lower weight, same speed,
> reduced power, lower fuel burn).
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
> Not at all contraire. Building light greatly improves T/O and climb but I
> think has little effect on speed. Reducing drag increase speed but its
hard
> for me to see how Kim has acheived the sorts of reduction in drag
necassary
> to give the speeds that I have heard quoted. I didn't say he claimed to be
a
> deity, they never do, do they? He's clearly very talented and whilst his
> acheivments may set admirable targets for mere mortals I think it would be
> appropriate to make it clear that most builders (all that I know of so
far)
> fail to acheive anything like the figures acheived by Kim.
>
> Jerry
>
> LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net>
> "Karp" ;
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> > Au contraire, the performance of Kim's aircraft is indeed relevant for
the
> > rest of us even if it is only as a benchmark.
> >
> > Although Kim's build philosophy may include a religious attention to
> detail
> > he makes no claims to being a deity, and no god-like powers would be
> needed
> > to duplicate his accomplishments. It's all a matter of attitude.
N111EU
> > was built light, and incorporates drag reducing modifications beyond the
> > factory's speed kit, but any mortal builder could duplicate what Kim has
> > done. His aircraft may be relatively Spartan (emphasis on relatively,
> > because it is certainly not austere) compared to, for example, Dennis
> > Vories' XS (whose interior could be compared to a Lexus) but that's
> > essential to keeping it light. Since the proverbial free lunch still
does
> > not exist, each of us must choose to build light and go fast, or build
> plush
> > and sacrifice speed. Just because most builders seem to prefer to have
a
> > little more of the plush stuff that adds weight and decreases speed is
no
> > reason to exclude N111EU as a valid example of the Europa's performance.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rob Housman
> > A070
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk>
;
> >
> > Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> >
> >
> > > I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
> > > particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have
> come
> > > near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants
to
> > know
> > > what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914
Europa
> > Tri
> > > gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least
> two
> > > 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
> > actuals.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> > > www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> > >
> > >
> > > > Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
> > > performance
> > > > evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL,
> requiring
> > > > Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Larry Graves
> > > > AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> > > > 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> > > > Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> > > > Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> > > > Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United
> States.
> > > > I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
> > > Europa.
> > > > I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> > > > I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that
> most
> > of
> > > > my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
> > > >
> > > > If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> > > > consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
> > would
> > > be
> > > > greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > > Stan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Hmmmm if you want to compare apples with apples, MTOW or MAUW is the same
(well OK, an unmoded classic is 70lbs lighter) - actually Kim's a/c isn't
that light: tips the scales at 800lbs. Now John Tye's is 720 odd....
M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: RE: Realalistic airspeeds
> Let's go back to ground school. To keep it simple, consider straight and
> level flight: additional weight requires more lift to balance the forces,
> but to generate more lift the wing's angle of attack must increase, and at
> greater angles of attack more drag is induced. To overcome the additional
> drag we have two choices (or a combination of the two): add power or
accept
> slower speed. Obviously things are not quite this simple because, for
> example, if we let the speed decrease that increases the induced drag but
> the parasitic and interference drag both decrease for a net reduction in
> drag (except in slow flight where the total drag increases as speed is
> reduced).
>
> A practical demonstration of the incremental improvement from weight
> reduction is provided by some airlines that go so far as to leave most of
> the fuselage unpainted, not because they like the look of shiny aluminum
but
> specifically to decrease fuel burn at cruise (lower weight, same speed,
> reduced power, lower fuel burn).
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
> Not at all contraire. Building light greatly improves T/O and climb but I
> think has little effect on speed. Reducing drag increase speed but its
hard
> for me to see how Kim has acheived the sorts of reduction in drag
necassary
> to give the speeds that I have heard quoted. I didn't say he claimed to be
a
> deity, they never do, do they? He's clearly very talented and whilst his
> acheivments may set admirable targets for mere mortals I think it would be
> appropriate to make it clear that most builders (all that I know of so
far)
> fail to acheive anything like the figures acheived by Kim.
>
> Jerry
>
> LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net>
> "Karp" ;
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> > Au contraire, the performance of Kim's aircraft is indeed relevant for
the
> > rest of us even if it is only as a benchmark.
> >
> > Although Kim's build philosophy may include a religious attention to
> detail
> > he makes no claims to being a deity, and no god-like powers would be
> needed
> > to duplicate his accomplishments. It's all a matter of attitude.
N111EU
> > was built light, and incorporates drag reducing modifications beyond the
> > factory's speed kit, but any mortal builder could duplicate what Kim has
> > done. His aircraft may be relatively Spartan (emphasis on relatively,
> > because it is certainly not austere) compared to, for example, Dennis
> > Vories' XS (whose interior could be compared to a Lexus) but that's
> > essential to keeping it light. Since the proverbial free lunch still
does
> > not exist, each of us must choose to build light and go fast, or build
> plush
> > and sacrifice speed. Just because most builders seem to prefer to have
a
> > little more of the plush stuff that adds weight and decreases speed is
no
> > reason to exclude N111EU as a valid example of the Europa's performance.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rob Housman
> > A070
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk>
;
> >
> > Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> >
> >
> > > I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
> > > particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have
> come
> > > near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants
to
> > know
> > > what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914
Europa
> > Tri
> > > gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least
> two
> > > 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
> > actuals.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> > > www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> > >
> > >
> > > > Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
> > > performance
> > > > evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL,
> requiring
> > > > Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Larry Graves
> > > > AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> > > > 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> > > > Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> > > > Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> > > > Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United
> States.
> > > > I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
> > > Europa.
> > > > I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> > > > I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that
> most
> > of
> > > > my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
> > > >
> > > > If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> > > > consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
> > would
> > > be
> > > > greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > > Stan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers,
As of this time, the following is the list for A Plane is Born
NTSC proposed video. We need 50 minimum, per previous emails.
F Kyle P Zutrauen
Jeff W C Walinski
C Popenoe S Reddy
S Easom
J&H Butcher
D Anderson
R McDonnell
L Antieau
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)virgin.net> |
| Subject: | Re: First flight |
First flightJavier,
congratulation.
My only suggestion with the oil temperature is to mount the oil cooler
seperately below the centre of the engine, mounted to the engine, and
cut an opening in the cowling immediately below the centre of the
spinner.
Dave Watts G-BXDY
Yesterday my Europa Classic (kit 187, EC-ZDH), first Spanish Europa,
has flown for first time in the hands of Ignacio Elduayen, a very
experienced taildrager pilot (Pitts, Sukoi, etc..)
According with him the plane flies superb and it is very easy to
control on ground.
Unfortunately the flight was too short because of high oil
temperature. I have the original cowling with the oil radiator behind
the water radiator. I think that this configuration is not adequate for
Spanish climate. In addition, could anybody in the forum give me some
advice about how to solve this problem?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom & Cathy Friedland <tfriedland(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | ailwheel springs |
Hi folks,
Can anyone explain why the XS Mono manual puts the tail wheel cable
springs in the center of the cables? I would like to put them up on the
rudder horns where they may be in less airflow and therefore cause a bit
less drag. Is there a reason they should not be there?
Thanks for any advice.
Tom Friedland A 079
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Fairall" <bob.fairall(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | ht to Austria ....... |
Has anyone any experience with flying to Austria (from the U.K.)?
The PFA have been very helpful in giving me contact details in Austria for
their version of the CAA, but some first hand experience from someone who
has made the trip in a Permit aircraft (if poss Europa in particular) would
help too.
Also, can anyone tell me how to obtain a noise certificate to conform with
German requirements?
Thanks in anticipation.
Bob Fairall
- Europa 'Classic' G-BXLK and an XS in the workshop under construction
......... ssssslllllllllllloooooooooowwwwwwwlllllllllllyyyyy!!!!!
(well, what's the point in building when the weather's good and flyable)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "M.F. NOWELL" <mnowell(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | pa Cover for sale |
I have a brand new Velas cover for sale. It is unused, medium blue, and
is for tie down protection. The purchase price was 270. Any offers?
Martin Nowell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "M.F. NOWELL" <mnowell(at)compuserve.com> |
Trevor Jackson has a completed Europa for sale. It is Kit No 4, and is a
mono-wheel classic.
I have seen it and flown in it. The PFA inspector was very complimentary
about the aircraft and I was very keen to buy it, but unfortunately for
personal reasons I have had to give up flying, so the purchase fell
through.
If you are seeking to buy a completed Monowheel Europa, I can highly
recommend this one. It is beautifully built, light, and comes with walnut
instrument facia and leather upholstery. You can view it on
http://pages.zoom.co.uk/trevor.jackson.
Martin Nowell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
First flightCongratulations Javier.
I'm unable to help you over the cooling problems 'cause I'm Jabiru 3300
powered.
Happy Flying.
Bob Harrison.. G-PTAG Kit337
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Francisco Javier
Subject: First flight
Yesterday my Europa Classic (kit 187, EC-ZDH), first Spanish Europa, has
flown for first time in the hands of Ignacio Elduayen, a very experienced
taildrager pilot (Pitts, Sukoi, etc..)
According with him the plane flies superb and it is very easy to control
on ground.
Unfortunately the flight was too short because of high oil temperature. I
have the original cowling with the oil radiator behind the water radiator. I
think that this configuration is not adequate for Spanish climate (yesterday
ambient temperature was over 35C). I have asked Europa Aircraft for
assistance.
In addition, could anybody in the forum give me some advice about how to
solve this problem?
Best regards
Javier Barahona
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Thursby" <athursby(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Realalistic airspeeds |
I spoke to Kim at Arlington and he said more like 850 pounds.
James Thursby
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
Hmmmm if you want to compare apples with apples, MTOW or MAUW is the same
(well OK, an unmoded classic is 70lbs lighter) - actually Kim's a/c isn't
that light: tips the scales at 800lbs. Now John Tye's is 720 odd....
M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: RE: Realalistic airspeeds
> Let's go back to ground school. To keep it simple, consider straight and
> level flight: additional weight requires more lift to balance the forces,
> but to generate more lift the wing's angle of attack must increase, and at
> greater angles of attack more drag is induced. To overcome the additional
> drag we have two choices (or a combination of the two): add power or
accept
> slower speed. Obviously things are not quite this simple because, for
> example, if we let the speed decrease that increases the induced drag but
> the parasitic and interference drag both decrease for a net reduction in
> drag (except in slow flight where the total drag increases as speed is
> reduced).
>
> A practical demonstration of the incremental improvement from weight
> reduction is provided by some airlines that go so far as to leave most of
> the fuselage unpainted, not because they like the look of shiny aluminum
but
> specifically to decrease fuel burn at cruise (lower weight, same speed,
> reduced power, lower fuel burn).
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
> Not at all contraire. Building light greatly improves T/O and climb but I
> think has little effect on speed. Reducing drag increase speed but its
hard
> for me to see how Kim has acheived the sorts of reduction in drag
necassary
> to give the speeds that I have heard quoted. I didn't say he claimed to be
a
> deity, they never do, do they? He's clearly very talented and whilst his
> acheivments may set admirable targets for mere mortals I think it would be
> appropriate to make it clear that most builders (all that I know of so
far)
> fail to acheive anything like the figures acheived by Kim.
>
> Jerry
>
> LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net>
> "Karp" ;
> Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
> > Au contraire, the performance of Kim's aircraft is indeed relevant for
the
> > rest of us even if it is only as a benchmark.
> >
> > Although Kim's build philosophy may include a religious attention to
> detail
> > he makes no claims to being a deity, and no god-like powers would be
> needed
> > to duplicate his accomplishments. It's all a matter of attitude.
N111EU
> > was built light, and incorporates drag reducing modifications beyond the
> > factory's speed kit, but any mortal builder could duplicate what Kim has
> > done. His aircraft may be relatively Spartan (emphasis on relatively,
> > because it is certainly not austere) compared to, for example, Dennis
> > Vories' XS (whose interior could be compared to a Lexus) but that's
> > essential to keeping it light. Since the proverbial free lunch still
does
> > not exist, each of us must choose to build light and go fast, or build
> plush
> > and sacrifice speed. Just because most builders seem to prefer to have
a
> > little more of the plush stuff that adds weight and decreases speed is
no
> > reason to exclude N111EU as a valid example of the Europa's performance.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rob Housman
> > A070
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk>
;
> >
> > Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> >
> >
> > > I don't think looking at the performance of Kim Prout's aircraft is
> > > particularly helpful, unless you're a god. Nobody else seems to have
> come
> > > near to the performance acheieved by Kim!!!!! I think this guy wants
to
> > know
> > > what he can expect to acheive if he buys or builds a regular 914
Europa
> > Tri
> > > gear. There are several out there and we have sold props for at least
> two
> > > 914 trikes and one 914 mono. I am sure someone can give him typical
> > actuals.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
> > > www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
> > >
> > >
> > > > Although not a tri-gear, nor turbocharged, there is an excellent
> > > performance
> > > > evaluation of Kim Prout's Europa Classic at the following URL,
> requiring
> > > > Adobe Acrobat to open and read:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.cafefoundation.org/aprs/Europa%20APR.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Larry Graves
> > > > AirCrafters Builder Assistance Center
> > > > 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> > > > Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> > > > Website: www.AirCraftersLLC.com
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Karp" <karp(at)montrose.net>
> > > > Subject: Realalistic airspeeds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > I am an experienced pilot who lives in the SW part of the United
> States.
> > > > I am very seriously looking at either Building or buying a completed
> > > Europa.
> > > > I am leaning towards the tri gear configuration.
> > > > I would prefer to use the turbo 914 version from Rotax, being that
> most
> > of
> > > > my flying would be around the mountains in the SW part of the US.
> > > >
> > > > If anyone on this list could give me some actual Airspeed and fuel
> > > > consumption numbers, other then the factory printed information, it
> > would
> > > be
> > > > greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > > Stan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OK then.....Europa Video |
| From: | Craig M Ellison <ellisonair(at)juno.com> |
Put me on the list also for a copy.
Craig Ellison
A205
>Cheers,
> Jeff (#191) has asked if I will keep a list of those who
>wish a
>two-box copy of A PLANE IS BORN. UKP20 is the present price and 50
>orders
>for NTSC format is the minimum required.
> I'll keep the list, so if you want a copy (don't crap out
>later)
>let me know and will keep a report of progress along the way.
> So far:
>Ferg
>Jeff
>
>Cheers
>
>The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
>info(at)avnet.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com> |
Sorry to ask a question that I am sure has been asked 1001 times before, but
the message archive on the Europa Club web site isn't working, so I can't
check to see what has been discussed on this topic before. Apologies!
I'm considering building a Europa (and flew G-EUXS at Wombleton yesterday
and had a fantastic time with it over the North Yorkshire Moors), but am
very much undecided which version to build if I did choose that kit. As I
understand it:
Monowheel is lighter (30 lbs) and faster (10 kts)
Tri-gear has better ground handling and variable flap settings
The tri-gear also looks stunning on the ground ("but it shouldn't be on the
ground" I hear someone say).
Does anyone out there have opinions (and reasons) for preferring one over
the other? Do you think the mods like the extended tailwheel have cured the
monowheel problems or just ameliorated them somewhat?
I should add that I have no problem with spending hours with a coach
learning to fly the plane properly (I am, after all, a low-hours pilot). I
also have no problem with something that is quirky, as long as it is
consistent and safe.
Thanks for any input anyone can offer.
Kind regards,
Jeremy Davey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa(at)home.com> |
Jeremy
I just recently made the same decision you are pondering. The thing that
made my mind up was something I was told by someone on this forum.
It was an aside about the Mono that I had not thought about. As you know the
Mono is better suited for rough fields landings than the try-gear, by
design. If you ever need to make a "off field" landing, the Mono has a
better chance of doing it with grace and dignity. An another thing, the
Momo is what an Europa is suppose to look like, one wheel !!!!!
Cliff Shaw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Anderson" <Randerson(at)skewstacks.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
Jeremy,
They say that real pilots fly tail-draggers because they present more of a
challenge, but give more satisfaction. IMHO the monowheel presents just a
little bit more of a challenge, and also provides even more satisfaction
(when you get it right!).
Looks are a matter of opinion but I have seen all three versions together,
mono, tail-dragger and trike (at White Waltham) and I just love the
distinctive look of the mono.
Roger Anderson G-BXTD.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Which version?
> The tri-gear also looks stunning on the ground ("but it shouldn't be on
the
> ground" I hear someone say).
>
> Does anyone out there have opinions (and reasons) for preferring one over
> the other? Do you think the mods like the extended tailwheel have cured
the
> monowheel problems or just ameliorated them somewhat?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
> Sorry to ask a question that I am sure has been asked 1001 times before, but
> the message archive on the Europa Club web site isn't working, so I can't
> check to see what has been discussed on this topic before. Apologies!
The archive feature on the old Club website stopped working some time ago following
a software configuration change on the host
server.
However, a Forum member has implemented a much better archive facility on a website
of his own. See the FAQ for details (or the new
Club website flloated by Rowland a few days ago or if all else fails on
http://www.crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk/europa.htm )
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Strike, Edward (ANTS)" <edward.strike(at)ants.co.uk> |
http://thisisguernsey.com/news/news5.html
Another good argument for a monowheel / retractable ??
Although the above story relates to a piper arrow, there is the age old
argument that it would be preferable to ditch in a retractable rather than a
trigear.
Just my two cents / pence worth.
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Which version?
Jeremy,
They say that real pilots fly tail-draggers because they present more of a
challenge, but give more satisfaction. IMHO the monowheel presents just a
little bit more of a challenge, and also provides even more satisfaction
(when you get it right!).
Looks are a matter of opinion but I have seen all three versions together,
mono, tail-dragger and trike (at White Waltham) and I just love the
distinctive look of the mono.
Roger Anderson G-BXTD.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Which version?
> The tri-gear also looks stunning on the ground ("but it shouldn't be on
the
> ground" I hear someone say).
>
> Does anyone out there have opinions (and reasons) for preferring one over
> the other? Do you think the mods like the extended tailwheel have cured
the
> monowheel problems or just ameliorated them somewhat?
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nigel Charles <72016.3721(at)compuserve.com> |
Message text written by "M.F. NOWELL"
>Are there are any problems with parking a Europa outside (with a cover of
course)?<
Just make sure that water cannot build up within the wing or fuselage. On
one Europa several gallons of water built up in the wing.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ami mcfadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
I wonder what percentage of the EAA`s membership resides overseas?
Duncan McFadyean
-----Original Message-----
From: Miles McCallum <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk>
Graves
Date: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
>
>
>> That CAFE report was to have been published in the June Sport
>Av
>> by my recollection. Any reason why it's taking so long? Do I sense some
>> reticence for any reason?
>
>Not Made in the USA perhaps.............
>
>M
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ami mcfadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
-----Original Message-----
From: Miles McCallum <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk>
europa(at)avnet.co.uk
Date: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: Realalistic airspeeds
Now John Tye's is 720 odd....
>
>M
>
Or WAS! I bet its lots heavier now.
Duncan mcFadyean
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DaveBuzz(at)aol.com |
This was whilst the aircraft was on the standard open factory trailer parked outside,
I believe.
Dave
> >Are there are any problems with parking a Europa outside (with a cover of course)?
> Just make sure that water cannot build up within the wing or fuselage. On one
Europa several gallons of water built up in the wing.
> Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Sweeting <Paul.Sweeting(at)ntl.com> |
Hello Europhiles,
On purchasing the Rutan 'Bible' I've been spending some time studying.
My flight with Dave Watts @ Bidford (thanks again Dave!! The smile still
hasn't wore off :-) ) has certainly increased my momentum, combined with the
fact I've a buyer for my 'compact' house in Bridgend, I'm aiming to have a
decent sized workshop asap.
I notice that Rutans book mentions 3M 1323, 500 glass balloons should only
be used with Safe-T-Poxy.
I intend to keep my practice, utilising same or near equivalent materials as
that supplied with the Europa kit.
Which micro is recommended/supplied that is compatible with aeropoxy??
I'm assuming the foam used is only the blue styrofoam, or is urethane foam
used as well in Europa construction??
While i'm here, any recommended flox, bondo, peel ply, etc as well.
I really appreciated when some of you recommended local suppliers of these
items previously, when I was debating whether to buy the full composite
practice kit or just the book, I did the latter with the intention of
purchasing greater quantity locally, saving the cost of postage from the
states.
Unfortunately the mails sent directly to me and not via the list disappeared
when I changed employer and attempted to store all personal info on CDR, the
file exist but cannot be unlocked without connection to the former exchange
server - trust mickysoft!!
TIA
Paul Sweeting
Paul R. Sweeting
HP Certified Professional - HP-UX System Administration
IBM Global Services
Ntl Outsource - Winnersh
* ntl: Paul.Sweeting(at)ntl.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
Jeremy:
Trigear: more panel space ( no flap/gear handle hole)
no taildragger type requirements for license or insurance
( getting noticeable...)
not retractable, therefore less complex to the Man than the
monowheel
big storage compartment where Monowheel used to be, but no
more
interior room ( center tunnel is structural )
rumored less problems with cowling temperatures on climbout
owing
to no blockage of outlet by extended monowheel gear
frame.(?)
Monowheel: Faster
Better choice for MG wings ( less drag )?
Fills that big hole in the center tunnel with a fat
wheel
That indescribable air of uniqueness
Keeps you flying all the way to engine shutdown
Less room on panel makes you think twice before
installing too much
instrumentation and avionics. Ferhevvinsake,
this is a VFR fun ship...
I bought the Monowheel and am taking glider training so that I know how to
handle
monowheeled aircraft. They're a bit different than even taildraggers.
Shaun
A207
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Which version?
> Sorry to ask a question that I am sure has been asked 1001 times before,
but
> the message archive on the Europa Club web site isn't working, so I can't
> check to see what has been discussed on this topic before. Apologies!
>
> I'm considering building a Europa (and flew G-EUXS at Wombleton yesterday
> and had a fantastic time with it over the North Yorkshire Moors), but am
> very much undecided which version to build if I did choose that kit. As I
> understand it:
>
> Monowheel is lighter (30 lbs) and faster (10 kts)
>
> Tri-gear has better ground handling and variable flap settings
>
> The tri-gear also looks stunning on the ground ("but it shouldn't be on
the
> ground" I hear someone say).
>
> Does anyone out there have opinions (and reasons) for preferring one over
> the other? Do you think the mods like the extended tailwheel have cured
the
> monowheel problems or just ameliorated them somewhat?
>
> I should add that I have no problem with spending hours with a coach
> learning to fly the plane properly (I am, after all, a low-hours pilot). I
> also have no problem with something that is quirky, as long as it is
> consistent and safe.
>
> Thanks for any input anyone can offer.
>
> Kind regards,
> Jeremy Davey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
| From: | "Garry Stout" <gstout(at)us.ibm.com> |
07/25/2001 04:35:21 PM
There is nothing that will stir more opinions than Monowheel versus
Trigear. Right up front I'll tell you I prefer the trigear.
To correct a couple of misconceptions.........
1. There is no speed difference between the two models. Anybody want to
race me?
2. They both FLY the same. When in the air, you can't tell the
difference. What is different is when they are in the DRIVING
mode....meaning when they moving on the ground rather than in the air.
They DRIVE differently. The trigear simply drives better, more safely,
more predictably, with more stability and no nasty habits.
Let me ask you, would you like to drive a car with one big wheel in the
center, a tiny wheel in the back, and two roller skate wheels sticking out
the sides of your doors? I don't think that would be a very good design
for something that you intend to drive. Get the point?
As to "real" pilots prefering taildraggers (and monowheels) because they're
more of a challenge, let me say to you........fly your Europa with one door
off, with no radios, with no navigation equipment, with 4 out of 8
sparkplugs disconnected, and with wings badly out of rig. Now that's a
challenge! Sound like fun? Not to me!
Anybody got any different opinions? : - )
Regards,
Garry
N4220S Trigear and proud of it
(813) 878-3929
FAX (813) 878-5651, Internet ID Garrys(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham(at)intercept.com> |
....or tailplane.
The factory recommended pip-pin hole forms a perfect funnel. Water can
(and does)
drain into the torque tube, thence to the hollow tailplane.
A few gallons of water in your tail will do wonders for your C of G!
(this has happened).
.....and if it freezes it could destroy the internal structure unseen.
Fly Dry
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: <DaveBuzz(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Tie down
> This was whilst the aircraft was on the standard open factory trailer
parked outside, I believe.
> Dave
>
> > >Are there are any problems with parking a Europa outside (with a
cover of course)?
> > Just make sure that water cannot build up within the wing or
fuselage. On one Europa several gallons of water built up in the wing.
> > Nigel Charles
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "M.F. NOWELL" <mnowell(at)compuserve.com> |
Thanks to everyone who replied, but the cover has been sold now.
Martin Nowell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clevelee(at)cswebmail.com |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
Jeremy,
My reasons for purchasing the Europa Mono wheel:
1) Safer emergency landings
2) Much safer ditching in water
3) It looks different on the ramp and starts conversations
4) Easier entry as I age
5) Slightly faster
6) Remains true to the original design intent
7) Impact of the factory Liberty on resale is a less direct comparison
Cleve
A198 MonoXS
Detroit, MI
On Wed, 25 July 2001, "Jeremy Davey" wrote:
>
> Sorry to ask a question that I am sure has been asked 1001 times before, but
> the message archive on the Europa Club web site isn't working, so I can't
> check to see what has been discussed on this topic before. Apologies!
>
> I'm considering building a Europa (and flew G-EUXS at Wombleton yesterday
> and had a fantastic time with it over the North Yorkshire Moors), but am
> very much undecided which version to build if I did choose that kit. As I
> understand it:
>
> Monowheel is lighter (30 lbs) and faster (10 kts)
>
> Tri-gear has better ground handling and variable flap settings
>
> The tri-gear also looks stunning on the ground ("but it shouldn't be on the
> ground" I hear someone say).
>
> Does anyone out there have opinions (and reasons) for preferring one over
> the other? Do you think the mods like the extended tailwheel have cured the
> monowheel problems or just ameliorated them somewhat?
>
> I should add that I have no problem with spending hours with a coach
> learning to fly the plane properly (I am, after all, a low-hours pilot). I
> also have no problem with something that is quirky, as long as it is
> consistent and safe.
>
> Thanks for any input anyone can offer.
>
> Kind regards,
> Jeremy Davey
>
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Thursby" <athursby(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
James Thursby
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Which version?
There is nothing that will stir more opinions than Monowheel versus
Trigear. Right up front I'll tell you I prefer the trigear.
To correct a couple of misconceptions.........
1. There is no speed difference between the two models. Anybody want to
race me?
Yes, there is, And yes I will :)
2. They both FLY the same. When in the air, you can't tell the
difference. What is different is when they are in the DRIVING
mode....meaning when they moving on the ground rather than in the air.
They DRIVE differently. The trigear simply drives better, more safely,
more predictably, with more stability and no nasty habits.
Not always, I differ on the second part too.
Let me ask you, would you like to drive a car with one big wheel in the
center, a tiny wheel in the back, and two roller skate wheels sticking out
the sides of your doors? I don't think that would be a very good design
for something that you intend to drive. Get the point?
Not a fair or even realistic comparison Gary.
As to "real" pilots prefering taildraggers (and monowheels) because they're
more of a challenge, let me say to you........fly your Europa with one door
off, with no radios, with no navigation equipment, with 4 out of 8
sparkplugs disconnected, and with wings badly out of rig. Now that's a
challenge! Sound like fun? Not to me!
Been there, done that, no fun! :)
Jim Thursby
Anybody got any different opinions? : - )
Regards,
Garry
N4220S Trigear and proud of it
(813) 878-3929
FAX (813) 878-5651, Internet ID Garrys(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
We are getting fairly close to completing our Europa and are having to
consider little incidentals like insurance.
Does anyone in the UK have any words of wisdom/ reccommendations on the
subject. We initially thought we would try to insure it for a couple of
months to get it through permit and test flying then maybe take a break
over the winter and start over next year. I know some owners make
considerable savings by flying only 6-8 months of the year.
Also we would like an idea of what the likely cost would be. It seems
that the excess on most claims has risen considerably and I believe that
500 is not uncommon (ie- the cost of a dinged prop blade). It does
beg the question as to whether fully comp insurance is really worthwhile
considering the likelyhood that you would end up repairing any damage
that you caused in an accident.
Any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated. Also any
reccomendations of good insurers.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS (nearly finished - Yippee !)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Jacobsen" <jacobsenra(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
>1. There is no speed difference between the two models. Anybody want to
>race me?
Yes
Bob Jacobsen
A131 N165BB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OK then.....Europa Video |
Oh, what the heck, I'm in for an NTSC copy.
Shaun Simpkins
A207
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig M Ellison" <ellisonair(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: OK then.....Europa Video
> Put me on the list also for a copy.
>
> Craig Ellison
> A205
>
> >Cheers,
> > Jeff (#191) has asked if I will keep a list of those who
> >wish a
> >two-box copy of A PLANE IS BORN. UKP20 is the present price and 50
> >orders
> >for NTSC format is the minimum required.
> > I'll keep the list, so if you want a copy (don't crap out
> >later)
> >let me know and will keep a report of progress along the way.
> > So far:
> >Ferg
> >Jeff
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
> >info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ami mcfadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
-----Original Message-----
From: Garry Stout <gstout(at)us.ibm.com>
>
>Let me ask you, would you like to drive a car with one big wheel in the
>center, a tiny wheel in the back, and two roller skate wheels sticking out
>the sides of your doors? I don't think that would be a very good design
>for something that you intend to drive. Get the point?
>
Let me answer you: I wouldn`t be seen dead in a composite car with three
wheels!! Now, the monowheel has four wheels of course.
DuncanMcFadyean
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
"Peter Bondar"
******************************************************
having seen several experts real and otherwise bite the dust at Cambridge
and Bagby
airports now the only thing that stops the monowheel fleet from being
written
off is just how frigging strong the airframe is.
The monowheels keeps most of Britain's prop suppliers in profit!!
The problem IMHO is that the 'boingey' suspension, the daft design of the
monwheel right in the middle
of the cog, the marginal rate of climb
with the combo flaps down, the high weight to thrust ratio with a 912
and the inevitably that ALL pilots have or will land a retractable
with the gear up biases the decision somewhat.
The people who fly monowheels successfully have huge AND recurring hrs on
type.
Every monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! not really a
good
idea for a 'hobby' plane.
Personally since I've now left the kit plane market I
would consider I have no axe to grind.
Pure tail draggers such as RV6 are very different since 4 out of 5 issues
are negated
by their design relative to the Europa
peter
From the Desktop Computer of Peter Bondar
Keepers Cottage, Thirsk, North Yorkshire
peter(at)bondar.co.uk
http://www.bondar.co.uk
tel: 01845 501062
fax: 01845 501067
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DaveBuzz(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | irfield info requested |
Does anyone have a contact name and number for Cheddington, between Halton and
Dunstable?
ta,
dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
Gary,
Firstly let me thank you for your kind hospitality when I came to see you and
you bird in July. I seem to recall that it was raining a little that day, and
was deemed to be quite unfit for taking a trike out in.
Joking apart, and accepting that six inches of rain fell during the four
hours I was in your part of the 'Sunshine State,' it has to be said that you
have the privilege of aviating in a place where you have more lengthy hard
strips per square mile than we have historic buildings. Big wheels, and the
need to put the thing down in little more than 400 yard fields is not a
requirement, whilst here it is. What's more I personally find that my Sassy
Lassie mono is really quite well behaved on grass, and this is where the mono
really has the advantage.
Secondly. Whilst on the Europa Club outing to Croatia, it was noticeable that
the Trike Pilots were much more concerned about fuel and distance. There may
have been other factors, but is there a weight trade off involved here?
Very best regards .....Bryan Allsop...360XS....G BYSA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
Hi,
Many thanks Alan and all those who replied to my query. Please keep them
coming in.
I think I will probably insure fully comp for the first year at least
then depending on how lucky/ skilled I feel I might go third party from
then on.
I may be wrong but I cant see how any but the worst (and then possibly
fatal) accident can cost that much to fix in terms of replacement parts
and materials. At the end of the day I would have to provide the labour
so in cost terms this dosen't count. For example a complete wing kit
would cost about 5000 so a wing or part of wing (foam cores) would be
much less. Most fuselage parts would come to much less. A second hand
Rotax would cost 3000 (if the original could not be repaired).
From what I know of Europa accidents, by far the most common are prop
strikes but with an excess of 500 the insurer is often left paying
very little (unless it is an expensive VP prop).
It is inevitable that accidents will happen especially to rookie pilots
like me but with experience these will diminish. What I would like to
know is if aviation insurance reflects the experience, hours and claims
record of individual pilots. If it does then staying fully comp makes
sense but if not then i'm not so sure.
Maybe my answer will be different in a years time.
Again, thanks for the advice.
Carl Pattinson
PS - Sorry to dissapoint, but having been building for over 5 years, my
definition of "it will be flying soon" is in 3-6 months, so sadly not in
time for "the summer". But we did fly down to the Isle of Wight in a
friends Jodel today and next year it WILL be in the Europa !!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Stewart
Subject: RE: Insurance
Hello Carl,
I have a 500 excess on my insurance and I think I pay around
1200/year for 35 - 40K worth of cover.
I get debited 10 times a year for the amount.
I think it might be Westminster Insurance, I can get you more details
if you're interested.
They seem quite good.
There are a few fixed hours schemes, but the cost mount if you do more
than a set number.
I would have thought you'd be hard pressed to get comp. cover for much
less.
Is Comp worth it ?. Well I've had more than my moneys worth from them
over the years !!
Say for example, you ground loop the plane and hit a parked aircraft
(I haven't, before you ask).
You might end up with a bill for many thousands of pounds.
When the undercarriage on FX collapsed during test flying, I think the
bill was around 5000.
In the past, I've been with Pentagon, but Westminster seem more
competitive now.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Insurance
We are getting fairly close to completing our Europa and are having
to consider little incidentals like insurance.
Does anyone in the UK have any words of wisdom/ reccommendations on
the subject. We initially thought we would try to insure it for a couple
of months to get it through permit and test flying then maybe take a
break over the winter and start over next year. I know some owners make
considerable savings by flying only 6-8 months of the year.
Also we would like an idea of what the likely cost would be. It
seems that the excess on most claims has risen considerably and I
believe that 500 is not uncommon (ie- the cost of a dinged prop
blade). It does beg the question as to whether fully comp insurance is
really worthwhile considering the likelyhood that you would end up
repairing any damage that you caused in an accident.
Any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated. Also any
reccomendations of good insurers.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS (nearly finished - Yippee !)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
Well per Europa the difference is 23 lbs, but full fairings will push
it to about 35.
That's not much at all for flight planning purposes. Maybe us
tri-gear builders are anal-retentive and just worry about
everything????
Regards,
Fred F., A053
BRYNALL(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> ....
> Secondly. Whilst on the Europa Club outing to Croatia, it was
> noticeable that
> the Trike Pilots were much more concerned about fuel and distance.
> There may
> have been other factors, but is there a weight trade off involved
> here?
>
> Very best regards .....Bryan Allsop...360XS....G BYSA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
Carl Pattinson wrote in part:
> I think I will probably insure fully comp for the first year at least then
> depending on how lucky/ skilled I feel I might go third party from then on.
> I may be wrong but I cant see how any but the worst (and then possibly fatal)
> accident can cost that much to fix in terms of replacement parts and
> materials. At the end of the day I would have to provide the labour so in
> cost terms this dosen't count. For example a complete wing kit would cost
> about 5000 so a wing or part of wing (foam cores) would be much less. Most
> fuselage parts would come to much less. A second hand Rotax would cost
> 3000 (if the original could not be repaired).
I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in the former colony a
scenario you describe could force you to give up a repairable plane,
as the insurance company totals her out, gives you a nice cheque, and
parts her out for profit. But then you check current kit costs, and
muse over the tribulations of another build. It may also be true that
if they know the used homebuilt market, they won't let you declare a
value more than a fraction of what she cost you.
It is wise to at least insure her for "not in motion," to cover
storms, theft, and such. But it arguably makes poor economic sense to
pay, say, an extra $1000 USD annually to insure against an in-motion
loss you can fix for a few thousand, like you say. We insure the
house, as free of mortgage (where's there's an option), the economic
loss due to replacement cost will be enormous, and accumulated premium
savings wouldn't net out in fifty years. Or your car, where some
uninsured bozo whacks it, that would piss.
For a homebuilt A/C, was it acquired with $$ you were convinced had no
other really useful purpose? So, why not self-insure? If you can't
fix her economically or don't want to, there's considerable value in
the part-out, and you're playing the same salvage game as the
insurance company, to your benefit not theirs.
I've never carried full in-motion hull on my AA-5, just
not-in-motion. After 24 years, the savings, reflecting present value,
is still ahead of even its escalating resale price. And with now over
1,200 hours in type, and condition she's in, a loss isn't very
likely. And anyway I'll have a Europa to fly.
Before carrying full hull, I'd pin the company down as to how the loss
will be determined, whether you can deal on a payoff number to keep
her, and whether you can bid at an auction.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)virgin.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
> John Cliff wrote
> Every monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! not really a
> good idea for a 'hobby' plane.
YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW ME BECAUSE
I AM NOT FRIGHTENED OF MY MONOWHEEL EUROPA. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!
I AM NOT FRIGHTENED OF MY MONOWHEEL EUROPA. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!
I AM NOT FRIGHTENED OF MY MONOWHEEL EUROPA. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!
Dave Watts. G-BXDY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! All.
We have been having "fun and games" sorting out my computer. As a
consequence of this we have lost about 20 messages
From Thursday 26th July to Saturday am.28th July (except the one from Karim,
who I will be replying to over the weekend.)
Should anyone be waiting for a reply please remail me for attention.
Going flying today!!!! Probably Bagby ,Scarborough, North Cotes,
Strubby.!!!
Best regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
HI Dave,
Thanks for your endorsement of the Monowheel Europa. I know several other
monowheel Europa pilots who feel the same as you but didint feel see it as
my place to say so (as I am not yet an Europa pilot).
Unfortunately the big I once said "you can teach your Granny to fly an
Europa" and that was in the days when mono was the only option (and with the
old style Tesco trolley wheel). He wasnt lying when he said that, but we
all missed the crucial word "teach". You have to learn to fly a monowheel,
not assume that its like any other aeroplane because it isnt.
Any aircraft that gets taken for granted will bite sooner or later - with
the Europa its usually sooner.
If there are so many pilots out there who are scared of their monowheels
then lets hear from them or better still lets hear from the ones who love em
!
Keep up the good work Dave.
Carl P
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Which version?
> > John Cliff wrote
> > Every monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! not really
a
> > good idea for a 'hobby' plane.
>
> YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW ME BECAUSE
>
> I AM NOT FRIGHTENED OF MY MONOWHEEL EUROPA. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!
>
> I AM NOT FRIGHTENED OF MY MONOWHEEL EUROPA. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!
>
> I AM NOT FRIGHTENED OF MY MONOWHEEL EUROPA. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!
>
> Dave Watts. G-BXDY
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
> Whoever sent this (it's unclear, John, Peter?) I just want you to know that
> I have a Europa Monowheel and love it - so now you know someone who is not
> "scared" of his.
When I post a message which is in this stylised form and says it is forwarded it
is a message sent by someone else. Because of the
nature of the server's bouncing process I have to post it under my own name, but
I always identify the real sender at the top of the
message body.
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
Bill McClellan vzn0629q(at)gte.net
*********************************************************
I have not finished my Europa yet to insure it but all of this is good info
for that later need. I did run into a situation with the 17 year old glider
I purchased. I wanted to get only liability insurance as it is required at
most glider ports but was told liability only was not available. Further,
the minimum annual premium was 750 USD of which the liability was about 150
USD. I believe there is only 2 insurance companies that insure gliders, so
they can pretty much dictate their policy structure. My question is, has
anyone been able to get liability only insurance, and if so where.
Thanks,
Bill McClellan
A164
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
I AGREE WITH DAVE WATTS.
I cannot believe that someone should make such a statement. Viz: "Every
monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! " I cant imagine that
Cliffe knows many. Is this intended to frighten potential Europa builders
from proceeding?
Speaking for myself, I love flying my mono, and regard every landing as a
particularly enjoyable part of every trip. I have only ever encountered one
pilot who was apprehensive, but that was because he had only flown Cessnas
before, and had heard that monos were not as easy. Yes! I did have to learn
to get the tail wheel down as a priority, and to keep the tracking striaght
with more use of the boot in some cross wind conditions. I have only ever
flown one other taildragger, but I understand that this is common for most of
them.
Take-off with the 912s 100HP engine is really straight forward. You just keep
the stick back, and wack the throttle open, track her straight using the
tailwheel, and she is airbourne as soon as the ailerons start to work (which
is very soon). Instinctively you push the stick forward to keep her flying,
and you are away.
The only frightening thing about it is how quickly it all happens, but you
can always buy something more sedate if that is what you want. Anyway, you
soon get used to the speed of events, and then find that you even look
forward to it.
The only other characteristic of the mono that may take some getting used to
is the unwillingness of the wheel to stick on the ground at the first
encounter. There seems to be a need for one bounce before calling it a day.
It never presents a problem now, because I just keep holding the stick back
and she sinks back on and runs out. I dont know if this is unique to BYSA,
Both encounters are fairly soft and cross winds dont seem to bother her at
all in this phase,so I just let her get on with it.
On two occasions the first bounce has been more pronounced, and I found
myself instinctively opening the throttle again. She responded by flying
straight off the bounce;-Beautifull!
Happy Monoing.....Bryan Allsop...360...G BYSA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)virgin.net> |
> > John Cliff wrote
> > Every monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! not
really
a
> > good idea for a 'hobby' plane.
> I never did ! (it was another guy, I'm just the messenger) :-)
> John
I'm very sorry John for the confusion. A lot of messages on this forum
really wind me up, but I control myself. Unfortunately I couldn't
contain
myself over this message.
For anybody interested I have been into 2 very unusual strips over the
last
two days.
The first was a microlight strip called Stoke. It is 600 metres long
with a
fairly good sideways curve along its length. It has a hanger at one end
of
the runway. A bank along the whole eastern side. A railway line along
the
whole western side and very tall electricity pylons immediately the
other
side of the railway, which curves around onto the approach path. Oh, and
it's very bumpy.
The second was relatively very good at Cross in Hand. This is again a
long
600 metres with the threshold at the end of a long sloping forest. The
first
part of the runway is uphill and sensibly unusable. The rest of the
strip is
markedly downhill and also has a significant sideways slope. Again it is
very rough and the far end of the runway had a short vertical drop.
Does operating into these kind of fields (and I have been in to another
2
like that in the past month) sound like I am frightened of the monowheel
Europa. I will leave you to judge.
I must add that I do not make it a habit of using these kinds of strips,
it
is just the way things have panned out recently. I am eqally happy
flying
into big airfields in the middle of class D airspace, witness the recent
trip that I made solo down to Croatia, running a day behind the rest of
the
pack due to work commitments.
I started flying the monowheel Europa with just 70 hours total in my
logbook, but instead of being stupid, I got some training with Martin
Stoner, and even then worked slowly up the experience ladder (working
hand
in hand with my daughter Sarah who also owns the aircraft and had
identical
log book experience at the beginning). We now have 670 hours on the
aircraft, nearly 500 of which are mine due to the difference in time
available and we both absolutely love it. Sarah, even with her
comparatively
fewer hours has taken the aircraft from the UK, down to the south of
France
and back up the west coast on a week long holiday.
Whatever it is you fly, monowheel, conventional or tri-gear, for
goodness
sake get on and enjoy flying it (or building it).
Dave Watts G-BXDY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ami mcfadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
-----Original Message-----
From: BRYNALL(at)aol.com <BRYNALL(at)aol.com>
>
There seems to be a need for one bounce before calling it a day.
Is this why Pete Davies always seemed to fly down onto the runway and
deliberately do one medium to large size bounce before landing quite
"normally" with no bounce? Or at least he did the times I saw him land at
Kirby.
Duncan McFadyean
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Guys.
I've been keeping my head down on this trike / mono question since I'm no
more than a novice anyway. However
Firstly let me say my a/c is constructed extensively as a "convertible"
because I was advised to "have a trike to learn on , especially with an
expensive propeller fitted."
Still no damage to the prop. Even doing a "wheel barrow" promoted from a
heavy landing when the nose wheel bent the nose leg DOWN (Think about it a
while)
Then yesterday I did another heavy landing on all three wheels (still no
prop. Damage ) but the bungee broke , I suspect due to the safety strap
severing the bungee.
I bet a mono can't bust it's bungee and land without prop damage then take
off again and land home with the bungee tied up loose! ?
Does any one know what a tension burst of bungee looks like ? Is it frayed
into a birds nest of strands or is it like it's been knifed across cleanly ?
BTW prior to I get to speak to Andy Draper on this problem IMHO I suggest
all Europa Trike flyers ensure that their nose leg safety strap can not get
overlaid on to a strand of the bungee. I thought I had mine adequately taped
,and the slack held away so this phenomen couldn't prevail.
Perhaps a light spring holding the slack tight would help ?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG (I'm not too proud to sing of my failings !!!!!)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 27 July 2001 12:46
Subject: RE: Which version?
Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
"Peter Bondar"
******************************************************
having seen several experts real and otherwise bite the dust at Cambridge
and Bagby
airports now the only thing that stops the monowheel fleet from being
written
off is just how frigging strong the airframe is.
The monowheels keeps most of Britain's prop suppliers in profit!!
The problem IMHO is that the 'boingey' suspension, the daft design of the
monwheel right in the middle
of the cog, the marginal rate of climb
with the combo flaps down, the high weight to thrust ratio with a 912
and the inevitably that ALL pilots have or will land a retractable
with the gear up biases the decision somewhat.
The people who fly monowheels successfully have huge AND recurring hrs on
type.
Every monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! not really a
good
idea for a 'hobby' plane.
Personally since I've now left the kit plane market I
would consider I have no axe to grind.
Pure tail draggers such as RV6 are very different since 4 out of 5 issues
are negated
by their design relative to the Europa
peter
From the Desktop Computer of Peter Bondar
Keepers Cottage, Thirsk, North Yorkshire
peter(at)bondar.co.uk
http://www.bondar.co.uk
tel: 01845 501062
fax: 01845 501067
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which Version |
Peter's remarks have certainly spawned a host of postings to the web.
David's response exemplifies something that has become more common as
the Europa fleet has grown and notably as the XS has come on line-
transition training in type.
I also note with no criticism intended that David now fits Peter's
description of the
successful Monowheel pilot - "huge hours with lots in type", even though
he started
at nothing. But David did get proper type training, a flew a LOT
afterwards. It is
a sad fact that most pilots rarely fly more than 100 hrs/year, and this
is just not
enough to keep one's skills up. The magazines and Europa do now caution
prospective
buyers that the Europa does require more skill to land and take off than
the typical
Cessna
I have to admit that the local folks I've talked to that are flying the
Monowheel and were
able to just "get in and go" had many hours in taildraggers beforehand.
As I build my plane, I am transition training in gliders (the original
monowheel) and will
seek transition training in type as the completion date nears. But yes,
the trigear was a
very strong consideration, and may be a retrofit later on.
I would also question Peter's contention that the mainwheel position is
wrongly positioned
in the middle of the COG. It is clearly far ahead of it.
In reading Pazmany's book on Landing Gear Design, Pazmany's states that
the landing gear
should describe an angle of between 8 and 15 degrees from the CG in
landing AoA for best
handling. This is surely met by the design. Peter, any comments?
Shaun
A207
----- Original Message -----
From: David Watts
Subject: Which Version
> > John Cliff wrote
> > Every monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! not
really
a
> > good idea for a 'hobby' plane.
> I never did ! (it was another guy, I'm just the messenger) :-)
> John
I'm very sorry John for the confusion. A lot of messages on this forum
really wind me up, but I control myself. Unfortunately I couldn't
contain
myself over this message.
For anybody interested I have been into 2 very unusual strips over the
last
two days.
The first was a microlight strip called Stoke. It is 600 metres long
with a
fairly good sideways curve along its length. It has a hanger at one
end of
the runway. A bank along the whole eastern side. A railway line along
the
whole western side and very tall electricity pylons immediately the
other
side of the railway, which curves around onto the approach path. Oh,
and
it's very bumpy.
The second was relatively very good at Cross in Hand. This is again a
long
600 metres with the threshold at the end of a long sloping forest. The
first
part of the runway is uphill and sensibly unusable. The rest of the
strip is
markedly downhill and also has a significant sideways slope. Again it
is
very rough and the far end of the runway had a short vertical drop.
Does operating into these kind of fields (and I have been in to
another 2
like that in the past month) sound like I am frightened of the
monowheel
Europa. I will leave you to judge.
I must add that I do not make it a habit of using these kinds of
strips, it
is just the way things have panned out recently. I am eqally happy
flying
into big airfields in the middle of class D airspace, witness the
recent
trip that I made solo down to Croatia, running a day behind the rest
of the
pack due to work commitments.
I started flying the monowheel Europa with just 70 hours total in my
logbook, but instead of being stupid, I got some training with Martin
Stoner, and even then worked slowly up the experience ladder (working
hand
in hand with my daughter Sarah who also owns the aircraft and had
identical
log book experience at the beginning). We now have 670 hours on the
aircraft, nearly 500 of which are mine due to the difference in time
available and we both absolutely love it. Sarah, even with her
comparatively
fewer hours has taken the aircraft from the UK, down to the south of
France
and back up the west coast on a week long holiday.
Whatever it is you fly, monowheel, conventional or tri-gear, for
goodness
sake get on and enjoy flying it (or building it).
Dave Watts G-BXDY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
Hi, all --
There's frequent mention of "building light" here, and I found a tech
paper citing effect of weight. It's concerns Bonanzas, and a complex
formula needs Europa params for real accuracy. But just scaled to our
Bonanza-lites, it's looks a bit over 1/2 a knot per each 3%
increase/decrease in weight (say, each 35 lbs solo weight). It also
decreases with increases in power setting, too. This may be helpful
to newer builders reacting to the weight issue.
Also, the site has a cool method for cruise speed vs. HP, if you can't
do cube roots. For small increases, subtract 1.00 from the ratio, and
divide by three. So 75% on 80 HP is 60, full throttle is 80/60 1.33, do the math
and you'll get 11% more on the speedometer. A
smidge using cube root, and invalid for the new Jabiru 180, but close
enough folks?
The URL is web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/technical_flying.html
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)virgin.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk>
> I bet a mono can't bust it's bungee and land without prop damage then
take
> off again and land home with the bungee tied up loose! ?
Oh yes it can. The bungee only ASSISTS the retraction loads, so as long as
you are strong enough to operate the gear/flap lever (and you would have to
be pretty weak not to be able to) you will be able to deploy the gear, and
once deployed it locks into position by way of an over centre mechanism.
Dave Watts G-BXDY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Dave,
Have you tried it ? I couldn't when rigged on Mono in the workshop without
the bungee. Admittedly there wasn't any
adrenaline flowing in those circumstances !!!! But of course it would fall
into place without the bungee so it would fail safe.
Good to meet up the other day, where did you get to eventually ?
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 29 July 2001 22:00
Subject: Re: Which version?
From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk>
> I bet a mono can't bust it's bungee and land without prop damage then
take
> off again and land home with the bungee tied up loose! ?
Oh yes it can. The bungee only ASSISTS the retraction loads, so as long as
you are strong enough to operate the gear/flap lever (and you would have to
be pretty weak not to be able to) you will be able to deploy the gear, and
once deployed it locks into position by way of an over centre mechanism.
Dave Watts G-BXDY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
>I AGREE WITH DAVE WATTS.
>
>I cannot believe that someone should make such a statement. Viz: "Every
>monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! " I cant imagine that
>Cliffe knows many. Is this intended to frighten potential Europa builders
>from proceeding?
So do I,
If your need is an airplane that can go anywhere, but still get out again,
mono is the way to go. Long grass is sometimes enough to keep a tri on the
ground when the mono can escape. Seen it happen! G-KITS stuck, G-PTYE no
problem.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58) |
Hi, all --
I know some have to do this, but it follows a failure on only one A/C,
a demo with 450 cycles, an no joy on a sample of others. I'm
wondering about an alternative method for completed tabs, as it will
now be an important inspection item.
Maybe a piece of 1/4" aluminum, cut to the outline of the exposed
plate and filed to a taper, and Redux'd to the inboard side, so the
1/4" thick part of it is bonded to the tab's skin. Maybe further to
prevent any remaining flexing from pulling the tab's skin away from
the foam, a small patch of carbon fiber cloth there before bonding the
aluminum block. Any other ideas?
Was the failure A/C, GBXS, a mono? They blame shaking on engine
startup and related phenomena. But can the beating the tail takes
when operating on rough turf maybe contribute also? I have a
tri-gear, and am prone toward an easier fix, if this is a factor too.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Jacobsen" <jacobsenra(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58) |
Fred,
Its really an easy fix to do it with the factory supplied parts.
I removed the old plates by grinding off the bid with a dremel then heating
the plates to remove them. Next I ground away the flox underneath to get a
nice flat surface - note I didn't even remove the anti servo tabs from the
stabilator.
I then put the stabs back on the plane and glued the new tabs in place with
flox while everything was hooked up. This makes it very easy to line
everything up. I used clamps to hold the tabs level and wedged some balsa
wood between the rudder and the new metal plates to hold them tight while
they dried. The next day I did remove the anti-servo tabs from the stab and
layed up the bid over the top of the new tabs as per the instructions.
The whole job only took a few hours and some drying time! The trick is to
do it on the plane and not try to use a jig, which probably wouldn't give
you perfect tab alingment anyway (never worked for me!).
Later
Bob Jacobsen
A131
From: Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
>Subject: Trim Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58)
>Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:22:24 -0400
>
>Hi, all --
>
>I know some have to do this, but it follows a failure on only one A/C,
>a demo with 450 cycles, an no joy on a sample of others. I'm
>wondering about an alternative method for completed tabs, as it will
>now be an important inspection item.
>
>Maybe a piece of 1/4" aluminum, cut to the outline of the exposed
>plate and filed to a taper, and Redux'd to the inboard side, so the
>1/4" thick part of it is bonded to the tab's skin. Maybe further to
>prevent any remaining flexing from pulling the tab's skin away from
>the foam, a small patch of carbon fiber cloth there before bonding the
>aluminum block. Any other ideas?
>
>Was the failure A/C, GBXS, a mono? They blame shaking on engine
>startup and related phenomena. But can the beating the tail takes
>when operating on rough turf maybe contribute also? I have a
>tri-gear, and am prone toward an easier fix, if this is a factor too.
>
>Regards,
>Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trim Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58) |
Hi! Fred.
Quite easy to effect as the Mod Instructions say ,especially if you retained
the positioning jig used during the original fixing.
The new back plate is much thicker and not bendable at all, therefore much
stronger than anything you could do externally.
No shuddering on Jabiru 3300 start up anyway.!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 30 July 2001 01:22
Subject: Trim Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58)
Hi, all --
I know some have to do this, but it follows a failure on only one A/C,
a demo with 450 cycles, an no joy on a sample of others. I'm
wondering about an alternative method for completed tabs, as it will
now be an important inspection item.
Maybe a piece of 1/4" aluminum, cut to the outline of the exposed
plate and filed to a taper, and Redux'd to the inboard side, so the
1/4" thick part of it is bonded to the tab's skin. Maybe further to
prevent any remaining flexing from pulling the tab's skin away from
the foam, a small patch of carbon fiber cloth there before bonding the
aluminum block. Any other ideas?
Was the failure A/C, GBXS, a mono? They blame shaking on engine
startup and related phenomena. But can the beating the tail takes
when operating on rough turf maybe contribute also? I have a
tri-gear, and am prone toward an easier fix, if this is a factor too.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paulliz(at)cix.co.uk (Paul & Liz Atkinson) |
| Subject: | Re: lift pin sockets |
In article <000901c11125$3ee8f080$a2ccfc3e@r68lg>,
paul-d.stewart(at)virgin.net (Paul Stewart) wrote:
Paul
I had a similar problem.
The hole had been drilled in the rong place and the
pins were replaced by the factory.
Paul Atkinson
> What I now find is that the W26 lift pin socket on
the port side
> 'bottoms
> out' on the aluminium plates bonded into the wing
root (onto which the
> lift
> pin is bonded) before the pip pin holes align. There
is about 1.5mm
> discrepancy. I'm not entirely sure the lift pin hole
has been drilled
> and
> tapped perfectly horizontal. Any one had similar
experience or
> suggestions.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nigel Charles <72016.3721(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58) |
Message text written by "Bob Jacobsen"
>The whole job only took a few hours and some drying time! The trick is to
do it on the plane and not try to use a jig, which probably wouldn't give
you perfect tab alingment anyway (never worked for me!).
<
I agree that Mod58 is more easily achieved than it first looks. I also
found it was possible to get perfect realignment using a jig (provided it
was correct in the first place). Make two individual jigs (one for each
trim tab) as no two trim tabs are identical. The jig should be made so it
fits snugly all around the end of the tab but cannot move too far inboard.
This is achieved by having a cover to it with a hole for the pin to pass
through. Make this hole oversize so that a short length of aluminium tube
can be positioned over the pin and pushed down until it butts up to the
plate. The tube is then glued to the jig. You will then find that the jig
will precisely locate the new plate in perfect aligment in all planes.
Although the new plate is thicker you may be fortunate (like I was) to be
able to rebate the plate by the extra thickness without grinding into the
'bid' layup. This prevents having to shorten the crosstube at each end. I
understand that removing the crosstube inserts may not be easy without
damage.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nigel Charles <72016.3721(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
Message text written by INTERNET:BRYNALL(at)aol.com
>On two occasions the first bounce has been more pronounced, and I found
myself instinctively opening the throttle again. She responded by flying
straight off the bounce;-Beautifull!
<
There is a small compromise when it comes to the flap settings with the
monowheel Europa, namely that they are either up or down - no difference
between take-off and landing settings. Whilst this means that there is a
little less drag for landing (which might encourage a bounce), if a go
around is necessary the response is better than with a full land flap
setting.
I have not yet flown my Europa (first flight should be in the next few
weeks) but talking to experienced pilots on type I gather that two things
in particular help to achieve a good landing with the monowheel,
1. Avoid flaring at too high a speed and hold off until the attitude
enables a '4 point' landing. The speed should then be low enough to
minimise the risk of a bounce.
2. If you are lucky enough to have a VP prop the fine setting for landing
helps to ensure increased drag in the flare with the throttle closed. This
contributes to reducing the long float in ground effect before touchdown.
On both landing and take-off a VP prop helps to reduce the time spent in
the 30 to 50kt range when directional control is at its most challanging.
On take-off this is helped further if more than the minimum 80hp is
available.
Whilst the monowheel takes more training and experience to master there are
times when the trigear can become the more limiting aircraft. Operating in
and out of small soft grass strips is a case in point. The small trigear
wheels can add a lot of drag and are more likely to cause problems on bumpy
surfaces. In one case the pilot had to offload his passenger to ensure
getting out of the strip safely whilst the monowheel managed to get
airborne with 2 persons on board.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | e Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Guys.
Further to my message yesterday on this subject.
We are not sure that in fact the safety strap/cable actually was the
culprit.
It just may be the frame being a monowheel strengthened frame with the
additional support members (the aircraft being convertible) that overlaying
members of bungee due to restricted space have severed the lower bungee
members by pulling them into the "Vee" and crushing them.
Never the less a close inspection would be well in order for trike
owner/operators.
Best regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
> I cannot believe that someone should make such a statement. Viz: "Every
> monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! " I cant imagine that
> Cliffe knows many. Is this intended to frighten potential Europa builders
> from proceeding?
Hey, guys, I don't want to get pompous but I try to provide a service by forwarding
to the Forum messages which have been dumped
aside by the server for one reason or another. Perforce these have to be sent
from my own mail account.
The opinions stated in a forwarded message are not mine, they are those of the
author of the message, who is always identified at
the top of the message.
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
There is a nasty new virus on the net. I got caught Saturday. I don't think
I sent it out again but LOOKOUT.
An email subject"get paid to give away signature" has an attachment with
the virus, SirCam32 or similar. Symantec have a cure called FixSirc.com I
suggest everyone gets updated fast. I'm told it is everywhere.
Apologies to anyone who got caught
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Augustene Brown <augustene(at)cfl.rr.com> |
Having put 300+ hrs on our Europa monowheel last year, which included
a trip to the west coast from Florida, I suppose I should now put the
airplane in the hanger and never fly it again., this after having read
that all monowheel pilots are "frightened" of their airplanes.
Jim Brown
N398JB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Bob, your original message didn't come thru to me, but I get it in
context. I avoided overlapping by substituting 1/2" bungee. Doing a
leverage and math problem, and testing the #'s pull per % of stretch,
came out enough loops to appear to do the job, so maybe the math
method wasn't dumb, as a check.
It's easier to pull the thinner supplied bungee toward it's design
limit, and perhaps the overlaps caused concentration of stretching at
some point due to friction. It may have been stretching in service,
like maybe too loose total, locally at the limit (it's not supposed to
stretch in normal service). How'd you determine 350# tension at the
nose wheel? Lakeland said push down quickly and hard on the engine,
in a maneuver like a gymnast mounting the horse. Not very scientific,
but else?? I scored only 9.2 :)
On topic, I doubled the diameter of the safety cable, using plastic
coated comm'l cable. Yeah, I know, not aviation grade, but 4X the
area, as there has been breakage on hard landing I hear. The plastic
I figure will help prevent chafing of the frame, causing rust in
places you cannot inspect so easy. I also swaged on 2 ferrules for
extra safety.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
Bob Harrison wrote:
> Hi! Guys.
> Further to my message yesterday on this subject.
> We are not sure that in fact the safety strap/cable actually was the
> culprit.
> It just may be the frame being a monowheel strengthened frame with
> the additional support members (the aircraft being convertible) that
> overlaying members of bungee due to restricted space have severed the
> lower bungee members by pulling them into the "Vee" and crushing them.
> Never the less a close inspection would be well in order for trike
> owner/operators.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
From the tri-gear manual, 30 May 1998 edition, page 29-12:
Remember that the bungee does not provide the nose gear springing, the
flexibility of the leg does
this. The bungee is to allow a momentary overload to take place without
over-stressing the anchor
point.
If this is the purpose of the bungee, any stress that is sufficient to break
the bungee AND the factory specified safety cable is quite likely to over
stress the anchor point. Ergo, it is probably not a good idea to add
strength to either, and in particular to strengthen the safety cable. The
energy dissipated by breaking the bungee might protect the anchor points
from damage but I suppose that breaking the cable will definitely cause some
damage and breaking a thicker cable would cause even more damage. Any
landing bad enough to break either is likely to be expensive so I guess I'm
just quibbling about what pieces will need to be repaired.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
********
On topic, I doubled the diameter of the safety cable, using plastic
coated comm'l cable. Yeah, I know, not aviation grade, but 4X the
area, as there has been breakage on hard landing I hear. The plastic
I figure will help prevent chafing of the frame, causing rust in
places you cannot inspect so easy. I also swaged on 2 ferrules for
extra safety.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Fred.
Thanks for your input. I'm mostly convinced that the break was due to
overlaid layers of bungee trapping the under layers .
There is evidence of further damage at measured intervals indicating that
the "Vee" trap on the Mono strengthening members was trapping the bungee and
therefore not allowing it to slide and equalise loads in each "fall of rope"
even to the extent that it had probably never been allowed to equalise any
differing loads during application.
As for measuring the "break" weight of the complete assembly I used the
Europa digital balance (used for weight and balance checks ) Just stood the
nose wheel onto it and pulled down on the prop. (yeah.yeah with the mag
switches off! )and read the weight at which the nose leg started to compress
and so extend the bungee.
I also put two ferrules on for extra insurance.
But when I asked the factory what to do with the stretched excess bungee
they
said "might as well put some extra "falls" on the system" then you still
have the ends available if you should need to retighten it !!!! Herein lies
my demise coupled with the blessed "Vees" , I am sure going to have to make
a PERMANENT decision to do away with the Mono OPTION on my CONVERTIBLE
!!!!!!!!!
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 30 July 2001 14:56
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Bob, your original message didn't come thru to me, but I get it in
context. I avoided overlapping by substituting 1/2" bungee. Doing a
leverage and math problem, and testing the #'s pull per % of stretch,
came out enough loops to appear to do the job, so maybe the math
method wasn't dumb, as a check.
It's easier to pull the thinner supplied bungee toward it's design
limit, and perhaps the overlaps caused concentration of stretching at
some point due to friction. It may have been stretching in service,
like maybe too loose total, locally at the limit (it's not supposed to
stretch in normal service). How'd you determine 350# tension at the
nose wheel? Lakeland said push down quickly and hard on the engine,
in a maneuver like a gymnast mounting the horse. Not very scientific,
but else?? I scored only 9.2 :)
On topic, I doubled the diameter of the safety cable, using plastic
coated comm'l cable. Yeah, I know, not aviation grade, but 4X the
area, as there has been breakage on hard landing I hear. The plastic
I figure will help prevent chafing of the frame, causing rust in
places you cannot inspect so easy. I also swaged on 2 ferrules for
extra safety.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
Bob Harrison wrote:
> Hi! Guys.
> Further to my message yesterday on this subject.
> We are not sure that in fact the safety strap/cable actually was the
> culprit.
> It just may be the frame being a monowheel strengthened frame with
> the additional support members (the aircraft being convertible) that
> overlaying members of bungee due to restricted space have severed the
> lower bungee members by pulling them into the "Vee" and crushing them.
> Never the less a close inspection would be well in order for trike
> owner/operators.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Rob.
IMHO The main item to protect is the propeller and its attendant parent
attaching point !
In my case thank the Lord for the safety strap/cable. IMHO I would like to
know the load at which the nose leg tube provides "flexing" ? and then next
I would like to know its yield load? Having bent mine DOWN with a
"wheelbarrow" bounced landing! All these questions because I don't believe
the theory that the leg is ACTUALLY providing sufficient "FLEXING" on its
own even with moderately heavy landings.
When a) and b) bounced it , it was with such force that the TAIL of the nose
wheel spat got a bash and also gravel rash from the runway ! { a) and b)
shall remain nameless! But that's where I believe the rot started with my
bungee}
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 30 July 2001 16:09
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
From the tri-gear manual, 30 May 1998 edition, page 29-12:
Remember that the bungee does not provide the nose gear springing, the
flexibility of the leg does
this. The bungee is to allow a momentary overload to take place without
over-stressing the anchor
point.
If this is the purpose of the bungee, any stress that is sufficient to break
the bungee AND the factory specified safety cable is quite likely to over
stress the anchor point. Ergo, it is probably not a good idea to add
strength to either, and in particular to strengthen the safety cable. The
energy dissipated by breaking the bungee might protect the anchor points
from damage but I suppose that breaking the cable will definitely cause some
damage and breaking a thicker cable would cause even more damage. Any
landing bad enough to break either is likely to be expensive so I guess I'm
just quibbling about what pieces will need to be repaired.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
********
On topic, I doubled the diameter of the safety cable, using plastic
coated comm'l cable. Yeah, I know, not aviation grade, but 4X the
area, as there has been breakage on hard landing I hear. The plastic
I figure will help prevent chafing of the frame, causing rust in
places you cannot inspect so easy. I also swaged on 2 ferrules for
extra safety.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Stewart" <alan.stewart(at)blueyonder.co.uk> |
I've been reading the responses to Peter Bondar's original posting with
great interest
and have to say that I've been surprised at the restraint !
In my opinion he has made a couple of valid observations.
The 912 Europa is not blessed with an excess of power. On warm, calm and
humid days it is vitally important to balance initial climb with strip
length. Irrespective of 'long grass' performance I have found the monowheel
reluctant to become airborne on uphill farm strips.
Prop clearance is modest (at least, on Ivan's Mark 1) and must be considered
when flying from poorly prepared surfaces.
However, contrary to his observation I am not at all 'scared' of my
monowheel and believe
that his claim that all pilots will eventually land 'gear up' is completely
untenable.
With 600 - 700 take offs and landings behind me (in all weathers), I think
that with experience, the aircraft is quite manageable. Though better on
grass than hard surfaces, it's
a joy to fly and running costs are low.
I think it deserves a more considered criticism than an inflammatory
posting.
Alan (still involved with kitplanes and keen to see a fair and impartial
discussion on merits)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58) |
Removing the inserts to shorten the crosstube was exactly what I was
worried about.
I suppose also in the worst case, you could take out some of that
closeout layup, and redo it a few hairs deeper in. As long the
patient is opened up on the table anyway!
Regards,
Fred F., A063
Nigel Charles wrote:
>
> Although the new plate is thicker you may be fortunate (like I was)
> to be able to rebate the plate by the extra thickness without
> grinding into the 'bid' layup. This prevents having to shorten the
> crosstube at each end. I understand that removing the crosstube
> inserts may not be easy without damage.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Very cogent analysis, Rob. Maybe it would help that everything would
happen in a sequence. Bending of the leg, breaking of bungee, partial
collapse of the frame's fat tubing where the cable hits, and then
finally the cable. The final whack to the airframe, if a beefier
safety cable survives, is thus after energy has been dissipated. Sort
of the way they engineer autos.
I agree on your final point, as also if everything lets go, slipper
clutch or no, the engine (gearbox integral with crankcase) could
easily become junk, especially prop strike on a hard surface rwy.
Airframe likely repairable, or so we hope....
Regards,
Fred F., A063
Rob Housman wrote:
>
> From the tri-gear manual, 30 May 1998 edition, page 29-12:
>
> Remember that the bungee does not provide the nose gear springing,
> the flexibility of the leg does this. The bungee is to allow a
> momentary overload to take place without over-stressing the anchor
> point.
>
> If this is the purpose of the bungee, any stress that is sufficient
> to break the bungee AND the factory specified safety cable is quite
> likely to over stress the anchor point. Ergo, it is probably not a
> good idea to add strength to either, and in particular to strengthen
> the safety cable. The energy dissipated by breaking the bungee might
> protect the anchor points from damage but I suppose that breaking the
> cable will definitely cause some damage and breaking a thicker cable
> would cause even more damage. Any landing bad enough to break either
> is likely to be expensive so I guess I'm just quibbling about what
> pieces will need to be repaired.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | ators for Classic Europas |
One owner of a Classic Europa has need of a replacement radiator, but
apparently the original types are no longer available. He has been in
touch with Docking Engineering who make all sorts of oil & water
radiators (including some for VERY fast cars). They can make a
suitable item, but wonder if any other owners might also have a need
for the same replacement item (to help spread setting-up costs).
If you think this might be of interest to you, please DON'T reply to
me, but contact Mel Johnson
direct at Docking Engineering. They also have a website at
<http://www.dockingengineering.com>.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
My assumption was that there would be damage to the nose gear assembly or
its mounting structure and attach points before there was a catastrophic
failure that would allow a prop strike, and the stronger the cable the
greater the damage. A simple fixed pitch prop with a clutch behind it to
protect a Rotax engine and gear box would probably be a less expensive fix
than if the landing gear frame were to be torn out of the tunnel. On second
thought we better consider damage short of tearing the whole thing apart
because then not only do we get a prop strike but the nose gear is probably
going to be planted in the bottom of the engine. Of course, a more
expensive prop changes the equation significantly.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
> Very cogent analysis, Rob. Maybe it would help that everything would
> happen in a sequence. Bending of the leg, breaking of bungee, partial
> collapse of the frame's fat tubing where the cable hits, and then
> finally the cable. The final whack to the airframe, if a beefier
> safety cable survives, is thus after energy has been dissipated. Sort
> of the way they engineer autos.
>
> I agree on your final point, as also if everything lets go, slipper
> clutch or no, the engine (gearbox integral with crankcase) could
> easily become junk, especially prop strike on a hard surface rwy.
> Airframe likely repairable, or so we hope....
>
> Regards,
> Fred F., A063
>
> Rob Housman wrote:
> >
> > From the tri-gear manual, 30 May 1998 edition, page 29-12:
> >
> > Remember that the bungee does not provide the nose gear springing,
> > the flexibility of the leg does this. The bungee is to allow a
> > momentary overload to take place without over-stressing the anchor
> > point.
> >
> > If this is the purpose of the bungee, any stress that is sufficient
> > to break the bungee AND the factory specified safety cable is quite
> > likely to over stress the anchor point. Ergo, it is probably not a
> > good idea to add strength to either, and in particular to strengthen
> > the safety cable. The energy dissipated by breaking the bungee might
> > protect the anchor points from damage but I suppose that breaking the
> > cable will definitely cause some damage and breaking a thicker cable
> > would cause even more damage. Any landing bad enough to break either
> > is likely to be expensive so I guess I'm just quibbling about what
> > pieces will need to be repaired.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Agreed, on all points, and especially on the manual's pretense regarding
flexing of the gear leg, which seems a bit unlikely. Not knowing either the
force to stretch the bungee enough to load the 2.5mm (3/32 inch) diameter
safety cable, or the cable's tensile strength (and not having the nose gear
leg handy to make measurements) I'll make a guess that the breaking force
for a single length of the cable is 1200lbs and the pivot point on the gear
leg is located at around 1/4 of the overall length (for a 3:1 mechanical
advantage), which computes to 1600lbs at the wheel to break the cable with
none of the load taken by the bungee (for a load shared by four parallel
cables - but the calculated value is an approximation because it is actually
a single cable wrapped over the assembly). I'll go out on a limb here
(because I'd rather guess than calculate) and say that a mere 1600lbs is not
going to flex that beefy gear leg by much, and definitely not enough for the
eye to perceive. Later I'll get out my (ancient) Mechanics of Materials
textbook and do the calculation for the deflection of the gear leg under
load.
Now that I see how little it takes to break the safety cable it makes me
wonder why the nose heavy Europa has a steel assembly instead of one
fabricated from aluminum.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Hi! Rob.
IMHO The main item to protect is the propeller and its attendant parent
attaching point !
In my case thank the Lord for the safety strap/cable. IMHO I would like to
know the load at which the nose leg tube provides "flexing" ? and then next
I would like to know its yield load? Having bent mine DOWN with a
"wheelbarrow" bounced landing! All these questions because I don't believe
the theory that the leg is ACTUALLY providing sufficient "FLEXING" on its
own even with moderately heavy landings.
When a) and b) bounced it , it was with such force that the TAIL of the nose
wheel spat got a bash and also gravel rash from the runway ! { a) and b)
shall remain nameless! But that's where I believe the rot started with my
bungee}
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
> >
>There seems to be a need for one bounce before calling it a day.
>
>
>Is this why Pete Davies always seemed to fly down onto the runway and
>deliberately do one medium to large size bounce before landing quite
>"normally" with no bounce? Or at least he did the times I saw him land at
>Kirby.
>Duncan McFadyean
More likely he didn't recognise the difference between ground effect and a
stall. Close to the ground the nose will start to drop because of the
reduced AoA of the tail as the flap downdraft disappears. One has to bring
the stick back again, against one's instinct after an uncommanded pitch down.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Cool method, but now it just hit me. The manual can be interpreted to
mean that 350# is set with reference to only the frame/leg/wheel
assembly. At least I couldn't install the bungee except with the
assembly affixed to a bench. On a completed A/C, the weight on the
nose includes some airframe weight, namely fwd of the main wheel pivot
point. So setting bungee tension to just bring weight on the nose
wheel to 350# before stretching commences is setting it at less than
they intend. That would be way less than 1G load in service to
exercise the bungee. Maybe that's (in part) why you've had problems?
Any help here? I may be in the same stew.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
Bob Harrison wrote:
>
> As for measuring the "break" weight of the complete assembly I used the
> Europa digital balance (used for weight and balance checks ) Just stood the
> nose wheel onto it and pulled down on the prop. (yeah.yeah with the mag
> switches off! )and read the weight at which the nose leg started to compress
> and so extend the bungee.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Anderson" <Randerson(at)skewstacks.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58) |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Trim Tab Drive Plate (Mod 58)
> Removing the inserts to shorten the crosstube was exactly what I was
> worried about.
>
I had to shorten both ends of mine and was concerned about the difficulty of
removing the inserts without damaging them, but in the event it proved to be
quite easy. Judicious application of a fine flame from a mini-torch and
having a suitable pair of pliers to hand to twist the insert as soon as it
became loose did the trick (twice on one side as I didn't get the length
right the first time!).
Roger Anderson G-BXTD
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
Sorry John.
For "I cant imagine Cliff knows many," please read, "I cant imagine
the Author knows many."
Apologies, and best respects.....Bryan Allsop..(Mono flier, and tickled pink
with it).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ami mcfadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Radiators for Classic Europas |
Two unused Classic radiators were returned to the Factory a few months ago.
Presumably these have been sold-on elsewhere. It might be worth checking
again.
Duncan McFadyean
-----Original Message-----
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Date: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:17 PM
Subject: Radiators for Classic Europas
>One owner of a Classic Europa has need of a replacement radiator, but
>apparently the original types are no longer available. He has been in
>touch with Docking Engineering who make all sorts of oil & water
>radiators (including some for VERY fast cars). They can make a
>suitable item, but wonder if any other owners might also have a need
>for the same replacement item (to help spread setting-up costs).
>
>If you think this might be of interest to you, please DON'T reply to
>me, but contact Mel Johnson
>direct at Docking Engineering. They also have a website at
><http://www.dockingengineering.com>.
>
>regards
>
>Rowland
>
>| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
>| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Now it's getting more interesting, and I've answered my own question.
The gear leg is 4130 rather than an aluminum alloy because the yield
strength of 4130 (80 ksi) is reached at a mere at 700 lb force (up) on the
nose wheel, and deflection at the nose wheel end of the leg for this force
is about 0.6 inch. These values are based on the measured values of 1.25 in
diameter and 0.125 in wall thickness, for a 20 in long cantilever beam (the
gear leg) fixed at one end (which isn't literally true but this assumption
is good enough for now). 7075 would come close with yield strength of 73
ksi but it would deflect three times as much at the same load for the same
cross section.
So, if the leg will take a permanent set at not much more than 700 lb (and
fail at less than 1000 lb), how can the safety cable break without damage to
the gear leg?
Something isn't right here and I can't see what it is, but these
calculations say that it takes a lot more force on the nose wheel to break
the safety cable than it takes to bend (or break) the nose gear leg.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.com>
;
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
> Agreed, on all points, and especially on the manual's pretense regarding
> flexing of the gear leg, which seems a bit unlikely. Not knowing either
the
> force to stretch the bungee enough to load the 2.5mm (3/32 inch) diameter
> safety cable, or the cable's tensile strength (and not having the nose
gear
> leg handy to make measurements) I'll make a guess that the breaking force
> for a single length of the cable is 1200lbs and the pivot point on the
gear
> leg is located at around 1/4 of the overall length (for a 3:1 mechanical
> advantage), which computes to 1600lbs at the wheel to break the cable with
> none of the load taken by the bungee (for a load shared by four parallel
> cables - but the calculated value is an approximation because it is
actually
> a single cable wrapped over the assembly). I'll go out on a limb here
> (because I'd rather guess than calculate) and say that a mere 1600lbs is
not
> going to flex that beefy gear leg by much, and definitely not enough for
the
> eye to perceive. Later I'll get out my (ancient) Mechanics of Materials
> textbook and do the calculation for the deflection of the gear leg under
> load.
>
> Now that I see how little it takes to break the safety cable it makes me
> wonder why the nose heavy Europa has a steel assembly instead of one
> fabricated from aluminum.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
>
> Hi! Rob.
> IMHO The main item to protect is the propeller and its attendant parent
> attaching point !
> In my case thank the Lord for the safety strap/cable. IMHO I would like to
> know the load at which the nose leg tube provides "flexing" ? and then
next
> I would like to know its yield load? Having bent mine DOWN with a
> "wheelbarrow" bounced landing! All these questions because I don't believe
> the theory that the leg is ACTUALLY providing sufficient "FLEXING" on its
> own even with moderately heavy landings.
> When a) and b) bounced it , it was with such force that the TAIL of the
nose
> wheel spat got a bash and also gravel rash from the runway ! { a) and b)
> shall remain nameless! But that's where I believe the rot started with my
> bungee}
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ator and oil cooler dimensions |
| From: | Erich D Trombley <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com> |
Can someone please send me the dimensions of the radiator and oil cooler
used on the 914? As you know from earlier postings I am utilizing the
original cowling with the new 914 engine mount. I have the engine
mounted and the cowling in place. I we need to acquire the radiators and
oil coolers but want to make sure they will fit prior to ordering them.
Also I am considering the installation of an inter cooler for the turbo.
Anyone got any info on that? Thanks in advance for your replies.
Regards,
Erich Trombley
A028
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
Take my monowheel away and I'll rip your trike legs off!
I have never achieved more greaser landings in any other type of
aircraft than I do in the monowheel and takeoffs, using the correct
technique, are a non event.
As with all aircraft types you need to have proper training and keep in
practice.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
>"Back to ground school" I like it.
>Absolutely correct but this diffrence is SMALL as acknowledged in my earlier
>reply. One of the fastest Europas in Europe is also one of the heaviest.
There is a price for weight. It is take off and climb performance.
Especially at high density altitude.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
>It was an aside about the Mono that I had not thought about. As you know the
>Mono is better suited for rough fields landings than the try-gear, by
>design. If you ever need to make a "off field" landing, the Mono has a
>better chance of doing it with grace and dignity. An another thing, the
>Momo is what an Europa is suppose to look like, one wheel !!!!!
>Cliff Shaw
Slight correction,
If you can get in with a mono, you will get out again. In general , tri
gears are always easier to land, shorter too, however if the ground is very
soft and the wheels sink in , you got problems. Mono is better then.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Which version? |
>>1. There is no speed difference between the two models. Anybody want to
>>race me?
>Yes
>Bob Jacobsen
>A131 N165BB
There is a big difference between different Monos, no doubt Tri gears too.
The only close comparison is a mono converted to tri. Tom Sinclair did that
and told us he only saw a couple of knots difference. However, Kim's mono
is much quicker than most and verified by the CAFE team, whom I can only
respect.
Graham
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:14:51 +0100
From: Majordomo(at)lists.flyer.co.uk
Subject: Majordomo file: list 'europa' file 'europa.0108'
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radiator and oil cooler dimensions |
Hi, Erich --
Cooling fin area only - Oil - 10 x 4H x 2D; Coolant - 10-1/4 x 3-3/8D
x 3-1/2H. Both with mounting arrangements widening them, and fit in a
13" wide duct. But if your substituting for Europa parts, the
important spec is what they do thermally.
I would like to know too what an intercooler will do; auto enthusiasts
install them for different purposes (best power pedal-to-metal). The
climb rate should improve, but cruising at 75% power (if we knew
exactly what that is), the gain is in fuel efficiency. I don't know
either if the computer adjusts boost based on airbox temp (it limits
it above 162F for sure), but they don't say. That would nullify the
intercooler a bit, power wise. Has been done, but anybody got hard
data?
Searching the net will produce lots of hits, but aftermarket prices
are something else. Junkyards may not be a good source, as the
hotrodders will have them already. There is net of junkyards with
online inquiry for what you need, once you know what yr/make/model.
Bob Berube told me some Nissan is good fit.
In looking at my engine room, I was concerned over maintaining enough
induction airflow, or you overwork the turbo. And the additional
inlet air is aerodynamic drag, w/o knowing expected benefit.
Fred F., A063
Erich D Trombley wrote:
>
> Can someone please send me the dimensions of the radiator and oil cooler
> used on the 914? As you know from earlier postings I am utilizing the
> original cowling with the new 914 engine mount. I have the engine
> mounted and the cowling in place. I we need to acquire the radiators and
> oil coolers but want to make sure they will fit prior to ordering them.
> Also I am considering the installation of an inter cooler for the turbo.
> Anyone got any info on that? Thanks in advance for your replies.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "F X Connell" <fxcon(at)bigpond.com> |
Greetings to all Europaphiles from Australia.
I have been following Europa E-mail for some months and thought it
about time I contributed some input.
My concern is with the monowheel tyre.
I have seen no reference at any time to tyre blowouts on landing or to
overnight deflation .
The controllability of the a/c in the landing phase could be horrific.as
also the removal and repair of the tyre ,especially if overnighting away
from home.
As we all know, the m/wheel requires some specialised jacking equipment for
any u/c work in our own garage or hangar.
The thought struck me when I had to overnight recently at a remote and
prickly airfield notorious for a/c punctures and I wondered what would greet
me on return next morning.
Luckly no problem,however one day it will happen.
Strange that no reports have appeared to date.
How do you raise safely a monowheel in a remote region and remove the wheel
without carrying a heavy set of specialised tools dedicated to that
particular task?
Any comments or accounts of past experiences would be of great interest.
Regards to all
Frank Connell
Kit 262. Geelong. 26/7/2001.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Rob.
Thanks for the assurances that the safety strap is really safe. I would much
rather replace a nose gear leg AGAIN than have a "buggered" propeller !
However 0.6" isn't a lot of suspension is it ? So the suspension is really
provided by the bungee on anything but the most "greasy" of landings ?
At least a better understanding has evolved over how to achieve the correct
bungee tension/down load figure WITH ENGINE FITTED . (no pain no gain!)
I used mountain climbing gear to pull down on one side and push up on the
other with both loose ends fastened to my car tow bar and the plane
anchored to a "dead man". Then I clamped it in place whilst I let the loose
end tension off to do the "tie offs". I will still make some arrangement to
hold the loop of slack safety cable away from the bungee and so keep it
under it.
Incidentally I will be absent from Saturday through 27th August. Going on
business to Brazil via a week in Savannah.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 31 July 2001 22:42
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Now it's getting more interesting, and I've answered my own question.
The gear leg is 4130 rather than an aluminum alloy because the yield
strength of 4130 (80 ksi) is reached at a mere at 700 lb force (up) on the
nose wheel, and deflection at the nose wheel end of the leg for this force
is about 0.6 inch. These values are based on the measured values of 1.25 in
diameter and 0.125 in wall thickness, for a 20 in long cantilever beam (the
gear leg) fixed at one end (which isn't literally true but this assumption
is good enough for now). 7075 would come close with yield strength of 73
ksi but it would deflect three times as much at the same load for the same
cross section.
So, if the leg will take a permanent set at not much more than 700 lb (and
fail at less than 1000 lb), how can the safety cable break without damage to
the gear leg?
Something isn't right here and I can't see what it is, but these
calculations say that it takes a lot more force on the nose wheel to break
the safety cable than it takes to bend (or break) the nose gear leg.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.com>
;
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
> Agreed, on all points, and especially on the manual's pretense regarding
> flexing of the gear leg, which seems a bit unlikely. Not knowing either
the
> force to stretch the bungee enough to load the 2.5mm (3/32 inch) diameter
> safety cable, or the cable's tensile strength (and not having the nose
gear
> leg handy to make measurements) I'll make a guess that the breaking force
> for a single length of the cable is 1200lbs and the pivot point on the
gear
> leg is located at around 1/4 of the overall length (for a 3:1 mechanical
> advantage), which computes to 1600lbs at the wheel to break the cable with
> none of the load taken by the bungee (for a load shared by four parallel
> cables - but the calculated value is an approximation because it is
actually
> a single cable wrapped over the assembly). I'll go out on a limb here
> (because I'd rather guess than calculate) and say that a mere 1600lbs is
not
> going to flex that beefy gear leg by much, and definitely not enough for
the
> eye to perceive. Later I'll get out my (ancient) Mechanics of Materials
> textbook and do the calculation for the deflection of the gear leg under
> load.
>
> Now that I see how little it takes to break the safety cable it makes me
> wonder why the nose heavy Europa has a steel assembly instead of one
> fabricated from aluminum.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
>
> Hi! Rob.
> IMHO The main item to protect is the propeller and its attendant parent
> attaching point !
> In my case thank the Lord for the safety strap/cable. IMHO I would like to
> know the load at which the nose leg tube provides "flexing" ? and then
next
> I would like to know its yield load? Having bent mine DOWN with a
> "wheelbarrow" bounced landing! All these questions because I don't believe
> the theory that the leg is ACTUALLY providing sufficient "FLEXING" on its
> own even with moderately heavy landings.
> When a) and b) bounced it , it was with such force that the TAIL of the
nose
> wheel spat got a bash and also gravel rash from the runway ! { a) and b)
> shall remain nameless! But that's where I believe the rot started with my
> bungee}
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Garry Stout" <gstout(at)us.ibm.com> |
08/01/2001 08:25:41 AM
Graham Singleton wrote..........
If you can get in with a mono, you will get out again. In general , tri
gears are always easier to land, shorter too, however if the ground is very
soft and the wheels sink in , you got problems. Mono is better then.
Here in Florida we have lots of soft, wet ground. We call it "swamp", and
don't even think about trying to land our planes in it.
Regards,
Garry
N4220S
(813) 878-3929
FAX (813) 878-5651, Internet ID Garrys(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nigel Charles <72016.3721(at)compuserve.com> |
Message text written by "F X Connell"
>How do you raise safely a monowheel in a remote region and remove the
wheel
without carrying a heavy set of specialised tools dedicated to that
particular task?<
I know David Watts has done this with little difficulty. I am sure he will
give all the details if he reads this. By the way, this information was
published in the Europa Flyer so if you are not already a member of the
Europa Club you might like to consider joining. I used the same technique
described below to lift the aircraft to enable gear/flap retraction tests
for the final inspection.
All that is needed to raise the mainwheel off the ground is a support just
aft of the mainwheel aperture. In the controlled environment of a hangar or
workshop a padded trestle made from 4"x2" timber is all that is required.
In the landaway case some blocks padded by clothing will suffice. The
height is chosen so as to just lift the wheel clear of the ground. With 2
people a tailplane is removed, the tail elevated, the trestle positioned
and tail lowered. A little extra weight on the tail keeps the C of G aft of
the trestle. If 3 people are available it is not necessary to remove a
tailplane as the tail can be lifted with the tailwheel spring and the third
person at a wingtip prevents any roll until the aircraft is settled on the
trestle.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: : monowheel tyres |
F X Connell wrote:
> Greetings to all Europaphiles from Australia.
> I have been following Europa E-mail for some months and thought it
> about time I contributed some input.
> My concern is with the monowheel tyre.
> I have seen no reference at any time to tyre blowouts on landing or to
> overnight deflation .
> The controllability of the a/c in the landing phase could be horrific.as
> also the removal and repair of the tyre ,especially if overnighting away
> from home.
> As we all know, the m/wheel requires some specialised jacking equipment for
> any u/c work in our own garage or hangar.
> The thought struck me when I had to overnight recently at a remote and
> prickly airfield notorious for a/c punctures and I wondered what would greet
> me on return next morning.
> Luckly no problem,however one day it will happen.
> Strange that no reports have appeared to date.
> How do you raise safely a monowheel in a remote region and remove the wheel
> without carrying a heavy set of specialised tools dedicated to that
> particular task?
> Any comments or accounts of past experiences would be of great interest.
> Regards to all
> Frank Connell
> Kit 262. Geelong. 26/7/2001.
Some time ago there was an e-mail that
described a jacking block that fits under the
gear leg, just ahead of the tire. We built one
recently and found it quite useful and portable,
we intend taking it along on longer trips, in case
we need to jack up the plane for any reason.
The jacking block is a board with two bolts sticking
out the top to catch the edge of the gear leg just
in front of the tire, to keep the block from sliding
forward/up when jacking. A wedge shaped block of
wood is attached to the bottom of the board to provide
a level surface for a floor jack, scissors jack, etc. The
jacking block is about 6" x 6" x 3" (I'm working from
memory here).
Again, this appeared in an e-mail over a year ago,
so I can't take credit for it.
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ami mcfadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Radiators for Classic Europas |
Two unused Classic radiators were returned to the Factory a few months ago.
Presumably these have been sold-on elsewhere. It might be worth checking
again.
Duncan McFadyean
-----Original Message-----
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Date: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:17 PM
Subject: Radiators for Classic Europas
>One owner of a Classic Europa has need of a replacement radiator, but
>apparently the original types are no longer available. He has been in
>touch with Docking Engineering who make all sorts of oil & water
>radiators (including some for VERY fast cars). They can make a
>suitable item, but wonder if any other owners might also have a need
>for the same replacement item (to help spread setting-up costs).
>
>If you think this might be of interest to you, please DON'T reply to
>me, but contact Mel Johnson
>direct at Docking Engineering. They also have a website at
><http://www.dockingengineering.com>.
>
>regards
>
>Rowland
>
>| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
>| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)virgin.net> |
| Subject: | Re: : monowheel tyres |
From: "F X Connell"
> My concern is with the monowheel tyre.
> I have seen no reference at any time to tyre blowouts on landing or to
> overnight deflation .
I have now had 3 tyre deflations. One while taxiing, one overnight while
away in France and on while preparing for a first flight of the day.
The one while taxiing was at my normal base and with my trailer and fuselage
dolly I managed to get it back home.
The second in France, we lifted the tail high into the air and placed a
support under the fuselage just aft of the mainwheel. When the tail is
lowered and weighted down, the mainwheel is off the ground.
The third occasion I again had my dolly available, and the whole job of
removing and then seperating the wheel, repairing the puncture and replacing
the wheel took a little over half an hour, although there were three of us
working on it.
Dave Watts G-BXDY.
P.S. Punctures are a way of life for me for some unexplicable reason. On the
road I probably average in excess of 5 or 6 punctures a year. I do cover
some 35,000 miles in an average year and some 75% of that is with a trailer
of some sort on the back, but it is still frustrating.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radiators for Classic Europas |
>Two unused Classic radiators were returned to the Factory a few months ago
I understand the builder with the requirement started his enquiries
at the factory & was told there was nothing available, but as he is
based in Africa, there may have been some delay in the lines of
communication. I'll feed this info back anyway, thanks.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
"Peter Bondar"
****************************************************
Wow you guys do get techy!
Let me make it clear, I like Europas and I think the trike version is very
nice.
With the personal benefit of hindsight I think the XS tri gear is a plane I
could have built and enjoyed flying.
Yes I built a Banbi but I can assure you it is not a perfect plane either.
What irritates me is when armchair opinions do not give an informed view
of the issue.
The facts are:
more Europas have crashed/run off the runway/had a mishap/ than any other
plane
this side of a Cessna 172 and Warrior. Given how few are actually flying the
accident per hour record must be the worse on the British register.
My insurance is getting priced out of reach because Europa monowheels keep getting
pranged.
I got 600 reduction when I explained a Banbi was not a Europa!
I just think that the monwheel has backfired dreadfully on Europa.
It was one smart idea too many that was consumately marketed by Ivan
and most of you guys drank the bathwater and judjing by your reaction
are still drinking the bathwater. (But for the grace of god go I)
I've sold my Banbi for a wacking loss because everybody get telling me that
they could pick up Europas for peanuts.
A tour of hangars over the last 3 months had a Europa for sale on 4
differnent airfields out of 5!
My personal research unearthed 3 all going for way under 25k with pemit
etc.
The trike wheels stuff is baloney,
if you seriously consider taking off in grass so long that small wheels
vs big wheels makes a serious difference you either live on a Safari reserve
or you haven't got your CAA take off factors programmed in your noggins.
In fact the accident record shows too many Europas never ever did get to
take off speed!
The Banbi shows that trikes don't have to go slow. Who won this years Sun
and Fun? in the 100hp category.
Being a marketing guy myself I know just how easy it is to fool most of the
people most of the time
( for which I repent), I just smile when I see it happening to what should
be a bunch of smart people.
But then they typically are the softest touch.
So in summary what would you rather have?
A steady turnover in disillusioned and frightened owners who have had one
too many
interesting spins, with a group of hard core experts real and otherwise
hanging Churchillian in
their defiance of the facts.
Or a happy bunch of trike guys who merely prang them at the rate the rest of
the industry enjoys, ahem!
Now can I interest you in a pile of spare avionics and other bits left over
from one expensive project?
Visit http://www.bondar.co.uk
Cheers!
peter
From the Desktop Computer of Peter Bondar
Keepers Cottage, Thirsk, North Yorkshire
peter(at)bondar.co.uk
http://www.bondar.co.uk
tel: 01845 501062
fax: 01845 501067
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | ement from Avnet |
The following message from the bounce bin is a lengthy statement issued yesterday
by Avnet, the host organisation for our List. It
is about the Code Red virus which has received much attention in the last 36 hours.
It seems unlikely that any of us have been/will
be affected (you need to be running Windows NT or Windows 2000 for a start) but
I am passing it on since such statements from our
operator are unusual and this virus is clearly regarded as a menace.
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
*****************************************************************************
Subject : Action required TODAY - Urgent Security Advisory: Code Red Worm
Dear Customer,
You may have heard about the latest piece of malicious software to be released
by so-called hackers (actually the correct term would
be crackers or virus writers - hackers can be ordinary people who write legitimate
software!) via the national and internatinal
media. Many of you doubtless have questions, and we hope that this email will answer
them.
We would encourage all our users to read this email fully. We have scanned our
own networks comprehensively over the last week
looking for computers vulnerable to, or infected by, this worm. Those customers
whom we discovered were infected or vulnerable were
notified immediately. However, due to the nature of dial-up connections, firewalls,
and the fact that many computers may have been
simply turned off, it is important that our customers check themselves. We will
continue our scans this week, in case any computers
are missed.
Please be aware that action must be taken TODAY if you are vulnerable to the worm.
The worm has already infected hundreds of
thousands of computers (including some of our customers - now clean), and is currently
lying dormant until midnight tonight. Some
parts of the world will of course roll over to the 1st of August well before midnight
tonight. The danger is not only that
individual machines might be infected, but that the integrity and speed of the
internet in general might be affected by the actions
of the worm.
At the end of this email, we have included verbatim the announcement made jointly
by several organisations including Microsoft, and
several US governmental and non-profit-making computer security organisations.
First of all, here are three tips:
1. Don't panic! The worm only affects certain computers, and the fix is easy to
apply.
Only those running Windows NT and Windows 2000 are affected by this 'worm'. Of
those, only computers running the IIS webserver are
vulnerable. Novice users should not confuse Windows 2000 with Office 2000. If
you are using Windows 95, Windows 98, or Windows Me,
there is no action that you need to take in response to this alert, but please
read on. If you are not sure, please ask a friend or
a colleague who is knowledgable about computers for advice.
The fix is easy: visit http://www.microsoft.com/ and click on the link at the top right of the page named "Code Red Worm". Please
ensure you read the information thoroughly.
In addition, please note that the worm can cause problems for peole using the following
Cisco equipment:
* Cisco CallManager, Unity Server, uOne, ICS7750, Building Broadband Service Manager
(these systems run IIS)
* Unpatched Cisco 600 series DSL routers (our ADSL service uses Alcatel routers)
Cisco Security Advisory for "Code Red"
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/707/cisco-code-red-worm-pub.shtml
Please note:
We own and operate a small number of Windows servers ourselves. These were patched
prior to the release of the worm in accordance
with our security policies, and have not been compromised at any time. Only a very
small number of users are hosted on these system,
as most of our infrastructure is based on a UNIX platform.
2. If you are not vulnerable to this particular worm, don't be complacent!
Maintaining your computer system (no matter whether it is running Windows, MacOS,
Linux or any other operating sytem) and ensuring
that it is secure is a responsibility. You should ensure that you know where you
can find security updates for your system by
visiting your vendor's website, and check back regularly.
Some examples are below:
Microsoft Windows users: http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/
(ensure you are always up to date with the 'Critical Updates' section on this site)
Apple Mac Users: http://www.apple.com/support/security/
RedHat Linux Users: http://www.redhat.com/network/
(sign up for the RedHat Network to receive automatic security advisories via email)
3. Make sure you understand the facts, and not the media hype!
While most of the media has been responsible in reorting this worm, newsreaders
and newspaper journalists are not trained in IT
security. Some of the information we have heard reported has not been entirely
factual. For example, there are at least two versions
of the worm, and one of those does NOT deface web pages with a message saying "Hacked
by Chinese!".
You are not necessarily safe behind a firewall! If your firewall forwards port
80 (HTTP or WWW traffic) through to servers behind
your firewall, the worm can still attack those servers.
This worm is not to be confused with the W32/SirCam worm which spreads via email.
Please consult the following information to make sure you have the correct information
about the worm:
"Code Red" Worm Exploiting Buffer Overflow In IIS Indexing Service DLL
http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-19.html
Continued Threat of the "Code Red" Worm
http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-23.html
If you have any further questions please email technical support:
Please note that we are not providing telephone support for this issue due to the
weight of calls we would expect to receive.
Many thanks for your attention, and do not forget to read the official security
announcement below!
Best regards,
Aviators Network
http://www.aviators.net/
We the CERT/CC, along with other organizations listed below are
jointly publishing this alert about a serious threat to the Internet
A Very Real and Present Threat to the Internet: July 31 Deadline For Action
Summary: The Code Red Worm and mutations of the worm pose a continued
and serious threat to Internet users. Immediate action is required to
combat this threat. Users who have deployed software that is
vulnerable to the worm (Microsoft IIS Versions 4.0 and 5.0) must
install, if they have not done so already, a vital security patch.
How Big Is The Problem?
On July 19, the Code Red worm infected more than 250,000 systems in
just 9 hours. The worm scans the Internet, identifies vulnerable
systems, and infects these systems by installing itself. Each newly
installed worm joins all the others causing the rate of scanning to
grow rapidly. This uncontrolled growth in scanning directly decreases
the speed of the Internet and can cause sporadic but widespread
outages among all types of systems. Code Red is likely to start
it may be even more dangerous. This spread has the potential to
disrupt business and personal use of the Internet for applications
such as electronic commerce, email and entertainment.
Who Must Act?
Every organization or person who has Windows NT or Windows 2000
systems AND the IIS web server software may be vulnerable. IIS is
installed automatically for many applications. If you are not certain,
follow the instructions attached to determine whether you are running
IIS 4.0 or 5.0. If you are using Windows 95, Windows 98, or Windows
Me, there is no action that you need to take in response to this
alert.
What To Do If You Are Vulnerable?
a. To rid your machine of the current worm, reboot your computer.
b. To protect your system from re-infection: Install Microsoft's patch for
the Code Red vulnerability problem:
* Windows NT version 4.0:
http://www.microsoft.com/Downloads/Release.asp?ReleaseID=30833
* Windows 2000 Professional, Server and Advanced Server:
http://www.microsoft.com/Downloads/Release.asp?ReleaseID=30800
Step-by-step instructions for these actions are posted at
http://www.digitalisland.com/codered
Microsoft's description of the patch and its installation, and the
vulnerability it addresses is posted at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-033.asp
Because of the importance of this threat, this alert is being made
jointly by:
Microsoft
The National Infrastructure Protection Center
Federal Computer Incident Response Center (FedCIRC)
Information Technology Association of America (ITAA)
CERT Coordination Center
SANS Institute
Internet Security Systems
Internet Security Alliance
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Realalistic airspeeds |
<000801c11330$ed3647c0$56640b41@palto1.sfba.home.com>
<003601c11344$c35647c0$5a0501d5@jerry>
<01b801c1138f$a4f31650$2e0412ce@hyperiondzgkyg>
> Reducing drag increase speed but its hard
>for me to see how Kim has acheived the sorts of reduction in drag necassary
>to give the speeds that I have heard quoted. I didn't say he claimed to be a
>deity, they never do, do they?
>Jerry
Kim's figures were measured by the CAFE foundation, so are very believable.
His dad, Paul, worked for Lockheed at the skunk works on design. Maybe that
has something to do with his success.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
Quote..."more Europas have crashed/run off the runway/had a mishap/ than
any other plane
this side of a Cessna 172 and Warrior"
I am sorry but the AAIB statistics do not agree with this statement and
I know because I have just spent the last hour or so reviewing them. A
close look at the ACTUAL figures shows a total of 12 incidents in the
past 36 months, the majority of which are minor. More 172's , 152's and
PA38's appear on the list than Europa's.
Please get your facts right before posting messages like this.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bill(at)wynne.co.uk |
To all members
Please note that our AGM is scheduled for 11:00 a.m. local time
Shobdon (EGBS) this Saturday the 4th August, and you are all very welcome,
thanks to the great hospitality of David Corbett (Treas). Barring
sleep-talkers we should be out of there within =BD an hour after which we
have a very full schedule, with a sight-seeing tour of 30 of Wales' most
notable places of interest. Heading South first (NB Flyer has free landing
at Swansea in Summer edition - bring it) , and North second. BBQ lunch is
with me from13:00 at Talybont (in AFE guide and on my web site as above
email address) and tea at Mona. It is not a competition but we need to
pack as much as we can in to Saturday b'cos Sunday's weather is looking
highly suspect. So unless the forecast materially improves it will
probably only be a one day event this year ending at Welshpool or Shobdon,
at around 18:30. If the weather does improve, we will descend on Mona on
Sunday (1,666 x 45 meters hard) for some RT, Landing and Practice Forced
Landing competitions. Unless the majority would prefer to build sand
castles, play marbles, tiddly winks etc., in which case I'll see you guys
next year? It'll be great to see you all again, but I gotta stress that
you must use your own discretion at all times; be responsible for your own
flight planning and follow best practice at all times. These new suing TV
ads terrify me, so take extra special care.
Bill Wynne
WWW @ N52 36' W00404' Talybont 01654-710101
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Berube" <bberube(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Radiator and oil cooler dimensions |
The Factory Tech Rep at Rotax advised me a couple of years ago that a Nissan
300ZX intercooler is the correct size as is the location of outlets. Dennis
Vories installed an intercooler on his XS but did use different outlet and
inlet locations. He worked with Lockwood on the development and has
reported good performance and cooler temps. I viewed the installation at
Arlington a year ago and it is very, very nice. Sorry, I do not have an
e-mail for him.
Bob Berube A166
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Radiator and oil cooler dimensions
Hi, Erich --
Cooling fin area only - Oil - 10 x 4H x 2D; Coolant - 10-1/4 x 3-3/8D
x 3-1/2H. Both with mounting arrangements widening them, and fit in a
13" wide duct. But if your substituting for Europa parts, the
important spec is what they do thermally.
I would like to know too what an intercooler will do; auto enthusiasts
install them for different purposes (best power pedal-to-metal). The
climb rate should improve, but cruising at 75% power (if we knew
exactly what that is), the gain is in fuel efficiency. I don't know
either if the computer adjusts boost based on airbox temp (it limits
it above 162F for sure), but they don't say. That would nullify the
intercooler a bit, power wise. Has been done, but anybody got hard
data?
Searching the net will produce lots of hits, but aftermarket prices
are something else. Junkyards may not be a good source, as the
hotrodders will have them already. There is net of junkyards with
online inquiry for what you need, once you know what yr/make/model.
Bob Berube told me some Nissan is good fit.
In looking at my engine room, I was concerned over maintaining enough
induction airflow, or you overwork the turbo. And the additional
inlet air is aerodynamic drag, w/o knowing expected benefit.
Fred F., A063
Erich D Trombley wrote:
>
> Can someone please send me the dimensions of the radiator and oil cooler
> used on the 914? As you know from earlier postings I am utilizing the
> original cowling with the new 914 engine mount. I have the engine
> mounted and the cowling in place. I we need to acquire the radiators and
> oil coolers but want to make sure they will fit prior to ordering them.
> Also I am considering the installation of an inter cooler for the turbo.
> Anyone got any info on that? Thanks in advance for your replies.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Radiator and oil cooler dimensions |
Erich,
As Bob Berube has memtioned, Dennis Vories has a very neat intercooler in his
XS. I've flown the plane and the performance is impressive. The airplane
truly cruises at over 200 mph at 12,000 to 20,000 ft. and climb of over 1000
fpm continues well past 10,000 ft. Reminds me alot of how my Mooney 231
performed but on a lot less fuel! Dennis has said he will market a kit when
he gets 10 orders. He has mine and I understand the Jim Thursby wants to put
one on a demo XS. So we just need 8 more! Unfortunately Dennis doesn't have
email. He's in southern California with telephone and fax at 760-749-2502.
Hope this helps.
Jim Butcher A185
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris and Susan Beck <n9zes(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re: Which version |
Guys, he means it. Susan and I stopped by the Airmaster booth while at
Oshkosh last week, and I'm not sure if Tony sold us on the Europa or the
Airmaster. :-) Well, we already own the Europa, so it looks like we'll
have to hang an Airmaster on it now.... Regrettably, we weren't able to
stay for the builder get-together on Sat. evening, but we spent a lot of
time with Andy Draper, and all the rest of the gang, too.
Really, in listening to his glowing performance and flying tales of the
monowheel, I have no doubt that we made the right choice. Sure, I'll need
to get a full tailwheel checkout and signoff on my ticket before
transitioning into our Europa, but that will just make me a better pilot.
After hauling my instructor aloft today in one of the FBO's C152s,
wallowing along at 35 C ambient and about 75% humidity - doing well at 300
fpm, I can't WAIT to get our Europa finished.
BTW, I'm leaving for the Netherlands this Sunday for 3 weeks on business.
There wouldn't by chance be any Europa builders there? I'd love to hook up
if there are any. It should be a great trip, but I'll miss the wife, dogs,
Europa, and flying. I'm up to 32 hours in my logbook with 3 hours of
night, a bit of instrument, and my solo cross country yet to do. That
should round me out to about 40 hours. Then a few hours of review for the
checkride and I'm home free.
Later!
Chris
A159
"Tony S. Krzyzewski" wrote:
> Take my monowheel away and I'll rip your trike legs off!
>
> I have never achieved more greaser landings in any other type of
> aircraft than I do in the monowheel and takeoffs, using the correct
> technique, are a non event.
>
> As with all aircraft types you need to have proper training and keep in
> practice.
>
> Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Stewart" <alan.stewart(at)blueyonder.co.uk> |
Yes,
I don't believe quite a bit of what I read on this forum, either.
I disagree with Peter's assertion that it's difficult to get to grips
with the monowheel, though I humbly accept that the justification for the
design concept may be on shaky ground.
As I've said, sometimes it's difficult to get to flying speed against
grass or incline resisitance irrespective of tyre size. I need a more
powerful engine !
Europa's did go through a rocky period in the UK, incident wise. A couple
of insurerers mentioned to me that premiums might need to rise, due to this.
(hopefully, now in the past)
... and since I don't believe in deities, but do believe in the power of
marketing and those with a vested interest in selling stuff I wouldn't be
at all surprised if there was precious little difference in the performance
of properly constructed aircraft.
Nonetheless, it has many virtues. It is cheap (and a joy) to fly, and has a
good turn of speed.
I've spent a lot of money on my aircraft so I'm entitled to hold an opinion
like the rest....
However, I'll shut up now and keep my head below the parapet.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Flame wars
Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
"Peter Bondar"
****************************************************
Wow you guys do get techy!
Let me make it clear, I like Europas and I think the trike version is very
nice.
With the personal benefit of hindsight I think the XS tri gear is a plane I
could have built and enjoyed flying.
Yes I built a Banbi but I can assure you it is not a perfect plane either.
What irritates me is when armchair opinions do not give an informed view
of the issue.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Stewart" <paul-d.stewart(at)virgin.net> |
Thanks to Rob and others for their replys concerning problems with the
forward lift pin - it was resolved by heating the lift pins with a hot
air blower , removing them and re-inserting with fresh redux 'though not
so deep. We now have a more difficult problem:
The spar pin bushes in one of the wings are set 1/4" closer to the wing
root than in the other. As a result there is only 5mm clearance between
the fuselage side and the wing top surface at the level of the forward
lift pin. That combined with the fact that the forward lift pin
aluminium plates are not set squre in the wing root means that there is
nothing like enough space to get the lift pin socket W26 into position.
The other wing is fineand without the forward socket on the port wing
they rig fine. Anyone been here or got a fix?
regards Paul Stewart
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | orry to Mention TRIKES !!!!! |
Hi! Trike Guys!!!
To change the subject :-
Re:- bungee failure.
Now that I have taken off the offending remains and just for the record,
the rubber bump stop that I fitted under the top
bungee tube ( and now can't find reference to in the manual?) has been well
pummelled indicating many many movements
of the bumpstop so I guess you had better believe that the bungee does
provide regular suspension , not withstanding it had a number of heavy
landings anyway , by me AND others !!!
I'm about to remove the a/c frame mono Mod 37 stiffening members , so
closing the door on the mono option unless the members are replaced at some
time or a replacement frame, post mod 37, is fitted.!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
Dear Mr Bondar,
Thank you for your comments posted on this forum recently. However, I do hope that
Europa owners and other subscribers to this list can resist responding to
your comments and thereby preventing a free-for-all.
The Europa isn't perfect, nothing is.
Kind regards
Mark A.Waite
Sales Manager
Europa Aircraft Company Ltd
To invent an aeroplane is nothing, to build one is something, but flying is everything
- Otto Liliethal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! All.
Still talking about TRIKE I'm afraid!
Further to my previous messages re :- Bungee problem.
An alternative reason for the breaks is the fact that the top plate on the
actual "bumper" being light gauge material (though not particularly sharp)
has in fact sawn through the rear most centre "falls" of bungee rope since
on fully exercised travel the plate has to pass through these falls of
bungee?
My safety strap is quite a lot in excess of the 2" mentioned in the manual,
infact 2 + 5/8th",even so I can see that with only the specified 2" the thin
plate collides with the rear falls of bungee and whether it passes through
or not the sawing action is quite possible.
I have reported this to Roger Bull at Europa Factory who initially suggested
to trim the bump plate to the supporting tube diameter and file rounded
edges on the top .On further discussion he will be taking the matter up with
Andy Draper on his return from
America. IMHO the only solution (which means the engine AND frame out) is to
weld the bump stop to the frame and cut it from the nose leg pivot letting
it bump at the OTHER END, since the bungee is already parted at that end
going each side of the nose leg, then if the item conflicts with the line of
the bungee it doesn't have to part it or collide with it.?
In the meantime my Brazil /Savannah trip has been put back a month
(Clients!!???) and now I can't fly since the job is on hold. I guess the
damn garden is next in line!!!
Regards to all.
Bob Harrison G-PTAG grounded waiting !
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 01 August 2001 06:19
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Hi! Rob.
Thanks for the assurances that the safety strap is really safe. I would much
rather replace a nose gear leg AGAIN than have a "buggered" propeller !
However 0.6" isn't a lot of suspension is it ? So the suspension is really
provided by the bungee on anything but the most "greasy" of landings ?
At least a better understanding has evolved over how to achieve the correct
bungee tension/down load figure WITH ENGINE FITTED . (no pain no gain!)
I used mountain climbing gear to pull down on one side and push up on the
other with both loose ends fastened to my car tow bar and the plane
anchored to a "dead man". Then I clamped it in place whilst I let the loose
end tension off to do the "tie offs". I will still make some arrangement to
hold the loop of slack safety cable away from the bungee and so keep it
under it.
Incidentally I will be absent from Saturday through 27th August. Going on
business to Brazil via a week in Savannah.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 31 July 2001 22:42
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Now it's getting more interesting, and I've answered my own question.
The gear leg is 4130 rather than an aluminum alloy because the yield
strength of 4130 (80 ksi) is reached at a mere at 700 lb force (up) on the
nose wheel, and deflection at the nose wheel end of the leg for this force
is about 0.6 inch. These values are based on the measured values of 1.25 in
diameter and 0.125 in wall thickness, for a 20 in long cantilever beam (the
gear leg) fixed at one end (which isn't literally true but this assumption
is good enough for now). 7075 would come close with yield strength of 73
ksi but it would deflect three times as much at the same load for the same
cross section.
So, if the leg will take a permanent set at not much more than 700 lb (and
fail at less than 1000 lb), how can the safety cable break without damage to
the gear leg?
Something isn't right here and I can't see what it is, but these
calculations say that it takes a lot more force on the nose wheel to break
the safety cable than it takes to bend (or break) the nose gear leg.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.com>
;
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
> Agreed, on all points, and especially on the manual's pretense regarding
> flexing of the gear leg, which seems a bit unlikely. Not knowing either
the
> force to stretch the bungee enough to load the 2.5mm (3/32 inch) diameter
> safety cable, or the cable's tensile strength (and not having the nose
gear
> leg handy to make measurements) I'll make a guess that the breaking force
> for a single length of the cable is 1200lbs and the pivot point on the
gear
> leg is located at around 1/4 of the overall length (for a 3:1 mechanical
> advantage), which computes to 1600lbs at the wheel to break the cable with
> none of the load taken by the bungee (for a load shared by four parallel
> cables - but the calculated value is an approximation because it is
actually
> a single cable wrapped over the assembly). I'll go out on a limb here
> (because I'd rather guess than calculate) and say that a mere 1600lbs is
not
> going to flex that beefy gear leg by much, and definitely not enough for
the
> eye to perceive. Later I'll get out my (ancient) Mechanics of Materials
> textbook and do the calculation for the deflection of the gear leg under
> load.
>
> Now that I see how little it takes to break the safety cable it makes me
> wonder why the nose heavy Europa has a steel assembly instead of one
> fabricated from aluminum.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> A070
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
>
> Hi! Rob.
> IMHO The main item to protect is the propeller and its attendant parent
> attaching point !
> In my case thank the Lord for the safety strap/cable. IMHO I would like to
> know the load at which the nose leg tube provides "flexing" ? and then
next
> I would like to know its yield load? Having bent mine DOWN with a
> "wheelbarrow" bounced landing! All these questions because I don't believe
> the theory that the leg is ACTUALLY providing sufficient "FLEXING" on its
> own even with moderately heavy landings.
> When a) and b) bounced it , it was with such force that the TAIL of the
nose
> wheel spat got a bash and also gravel rash from the runway ! { a) and b)
> shall remain nameless! But that's where I believe the rot started with my
> bungee}
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "shamraz" <shamraz(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi all
Another armchair comment.......here it comes!
May I just say that all comments are very much appreciated for
potential future builders BUT I'm not sure this crashing malarky is doing my
confidence in building a Europa in the future any good.
Life is one big challenge. Some just tackle it better than others!
PS - insulting "intelligent" people isn't going to make anyone buy any of
your avionics (this one is a fact on experience and current employment)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Flame wars
> Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
> "Peter Bondar"
>
> ****************************************************
>
> Wow you guys do get techy!
>
> Let me make it clear, I like Europas and I think the trike version is very
> nice.
>
> With the personal benefit of hindsight I think the XS tri gear is a plane
I
> could have built and enjoyed flying.
>
> Yes I built a Banbi but I can assure you it is not a perfect plane either.
>
> What irritates me is when armchair opinions do not give an informed view
> of the issue.
>
> The facts are:
>
> more Europas have crashed/run off the runway/had a mishap/ than any other
> plane
> this side of a Cessna 172 and Warrior. Given how few are actually flying
the
> accident per hour record must be the worse on the British register.
>
> My insurance is getting priced out of reach because Europa monowheels keep
getting pranged.
>
> I got 600 reduction when I explained a Banbi was not a Europa!
>
> I just think that the monwheel has backfired dreadfully on Europa.
>
> It was one smart idea too many that was consumately marketed by Ivan
> and most of you guys drank the bathwater and judjing by your reaction
> are still drinking the bathwater. (But for the grace of god go I)
>
> I've sold my Banbi for a wacking loss because everybody get telling me
that
> they could pick up Europas for peanuts.
>
> A tour of hangars over the last 3 months had a Europa for sale on 4
> differnent airfields out of 5!
>
> My personal research unearthed 3 all going for way under 25k with pemit
> etc.
>
> The trike wheels stuff is baloney,
>
> if you seriously consider taking off in grass so long that small wheels
> vs big wheels makes a serious difference you either live on a Safari
reserve
> or you haven't got your CAA take off factors programmed in your noggins.
>
> In fact the accident record shows too many Europas never ever did get to
> take off speed!
>
>
> The Banbi shows that trikes don't have to go slow. Who won this years Sun
> and Fun? in the 100hp category.
>
> Being a marketing guy myself I know just how easy it is to fool most of
the
> people most of the time
> ( for which I repent), I just smile when I see it happening to what should
> be a bunch of smart people.
>
> But then they typically are the softest touch.
>
> So in summary what would you rather have?
>
> A steady turnover in disillusioned and frightened owners who have had one
> too many
> interesting spins, with a group of hard core experts real and otherwise
> hanging Churchillian in
> their defiance of the facts.
>
> Or a happy bunch of trike guys who merely prang them at the rate the rest
of
> the industry enjoys, ahem!
>
> Now can I interest you in a pile of spare avionics and other bits left
over
> from one expensive project?
> Visit http://www.bondar.co.uk
>
> Cheers!
>
> peter
>
>
> From the Desktop Computer of Peter Bondar
> Keepers Cottage, Thirsk, North Yorkshire
> peter(at)bondar.co.uk
> http://www.bondar.co.uk
> tel: 01845 501062
> fax: 01845 501067
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Futher to my last message , of course since Andy is in America perhaps some
of you guys can bend his ear about it , that is if he is there on business ?
Regards
Bob Harrison Impatient with brain just switched on !!!! G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ators and oil coolers |
| From: | Erich D Trombley <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com> |
Thank, Bob B., Fred F. and Jim B. for your replies regarding the oil/air
coolers and radiators. I will give Dennis a call and get more info.
Again Thanks.
Erich Trombley
A028
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | pa wars ! (or which version) |
OK, I cant resist it - I think monos are great too and I dont believe
over 500 other people out there (I am sure Europa will correct me if my
figures are wrong !) simply parted with their money without asking some
fairly tough questions. I bought my Europa on the reccomendation of
other Europa owners and not because of Ivans sales patter. The fact is
the aircraft sold itself as I am sure many hundreds of other satisfied
customers will testify. Enough said.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Bondar" <peter(at)bondar.co.uk> |
I suspect you guys take life way to seriously.
The avionics are mostly sold (it was a joke) and the fact that the 'pro
campaign' send private hate e mail,
whilst the burnt and pensive send ' I know it happened/could to me' and the
faithful watch on and pray for
a cessation means that I should retire from the fray.
If you can't discuss things in an open fashion maybe you should
rename the discussion group 'the only one true way (Europa) group'
Strangely I had a perception that we all flew/wanted to fly aircraft
and the the truth and a sense of perspective were more important
than blind faith/denial of the facts.
peter
From the Desktop Computer of Peter Bondar
Keepers Cottage, Thirsk, North Yorkshire
peter(at)bondar.co.uk
http://www.bondar.co.uk
tel: 01845 501062
fax: 01845 501067
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Flame wars
Hi all
Another armchair comment.......here it comes!
May I just say that all comments are very much appreciated for
potential future builders BUT I'm not sure this crashing malarky is doing my
confidence in building a Europa in the future any good.
Life is one big challenge. Some just tackle it better than others!
PS - insulting "intelligent" people isn't going to make anyone buy any of
your avionics (this one is a fact on experience and current employment)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Flame wars
> Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
> "Peter Bondar"
>
> ****************************************************
>
> Wow you guys do get techy!
>
> Let me make it clear, I like Europas and I think the trike version is very
> nice.
>
> With the personal benefit of hindsight I think the XS tri gear is a plane
I
> could have built and enjoyed flying.
>
> Yes I built a Banbi but I can assure you it is not a perfect plane either.
>
> What irritates me is when armchair opinions do not give an informed view
> of the issue.
>
> The facts are:
>
> more Europas have crashed/run off the runway/had a mishap/ than any other
> plane
> this side of a Cessna 172 and Warrior. Given how few are actually flying
the
> accident per hour record must be the worse on the British register.
>
> My insurance is getting priced out of reach because Europa monowheels keep
getting pranged.
>
> I got 600 reduction when I explained a Banbi was not a Europa!
>
> I just think that the monwheel has backfired dreadfully on Europa.
>
> It was one smart idea too many that was consumately marketed by Ivan
> and most of you guys drank the bathwater and judjing by your reaction
> are still drinking the bathwater. (But for the grace of god go I)
>
> I've sold my Banbi for a wacking loss because everybody get telling me
that
> they could pick up Europas for peanuts.
>
> A tour of hangars over the last 3 months had a Europa for sale on 4
> differnent airfields out of 5!
>
> My personal research unearthed 3 all going for way under 25k with pemit
> etc.
>
> The trike wheels stuff is baloney,
>
> if you seriously consider taking off in grass so long that small wheels
> vs big wheels makes a serious difference you either live on a Safari
reserve
> or you haven't got your CAA take off factors programmed in your noggins.
>
> In fact the accident record shows too many Europas never ever did get to
> take off speed!
>
>
> The Banbi shows that trikes don't have to go slow. Who won this years Sun
> and Fun? in the 100hp category.
>
> Being a marketing guy myself I know just how easy it is to fool most of
the
> people most of the time
> ( for which I repent), I just smile when I see it happening to what should
> be a bunch of smart people.
>
> But then they typically are the softest touch.
>
> So in summary what would you rather have?
>
> A steady turnover in disillusioned and frightened owners who have had one
> too many
> interesting spins, with a group of hard core experts real and otherwise
> hanging Churchillian in
> their defiance of the facts.
>
> Or a happy bunch of trike guys who merely prang them at the rate the rest
of
> the industry enjoys, ahem!
>
> Now can I interest you in a pile of spare avionics and other bits left
over
> from one expensive project?
> Visit http://www.bondar.co.uk
>
> Cheers!
>
> peter
>
>
> From the Desktop Computer of Peter Bondar
> Keepers Cottage, Thirsk, North Yorkshire
> peter(at)bondar.co.uk
> http://www.bondar.co.uk
> tel: 01845 501062
> fax: 01845 501067
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | steven pitt <steven.pitt(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which Version |
Well said David.
I am on holiday at present in Denmark as I read these emails and although I am
trying to relax my blood pressure is also rising as I read the 'arguments' about
which Europa is best.
To me they are all fantastic and I cannot wait to get mine in the air and one day,
hopefully,to join in with other Europa fliers in the many super rallies and
aerial feats (PFA Rally 2000 flypast) that I have read and heard about.
Much of my life upto now has been spent rallying in caravans (Swift as it happens)
and it is the'discussions' in the club which has first upset me and then persuaded
me to leave the club.
So lets only hear positive comments about all Europas and accept that without the
pioneers with the Classic, or whatever you want to call it, the trigear, XS,
glider, 912S,914, 3300 or whatever configuration would not exist.
Now can I get back to a quiet and relaxing holiday!
Regards to all whoever and whatever your mount.
Steve Pitt #403
________________ Reply Header ________________
Subject: Which Version
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:36:06 +0000
> > John Cliff wrote
> > Every monowheel pilot I know is frightened of their machine! not really
a
> > good idea for a 'hobby' plane.
> I never did ! (it was another guy, I'm just the messenger) :-)
> John
I'm very sorry John for the confusion. A lot of messages on this forum
really wind me up, but I control myself. Unfortunately I couldn't contain
myself over this message.
For anybody interested I have been into 2 very unusual strips over the last
two days.
The first was a microlight strip called Stoke. It is 600 metres long with a
fairly good sideways curve along its length. It has a hanger at one end of
the runway. A bank along the whole eastern side. A railway line along the
whole western side and very tall electricity pylons immediately the other
side of the railway, which curves around onto the approach path. Oh, and
it's very bumpy.
The second was relatively very good at Cross in Hand. This is again a long
600 metres with the threshold at the end of a long sloping forest. The first
part of the runway is uphill and sensibly unusable. The rest of the strip is
markedly downhill and also has a significant sideways slope. Again it is
very rough and the far end of the runway had a short vertical drop.
Does operating into these kind of fields (and I have been in to another 2
like that in the past month) sound like I am frightened of the monowheel
Europa. I will leave you to judge.
I must add that I do not make it a habit of using these kinds of strips, it
is just the way things have panned out recently. I am eqally happy flying
into big airfields in the middle of class D airspace, witness the recent
trip that I made solo down to Croatia, running a day behind the rest of the
pack due to work commitments.
I started flying the monowheel Europa with just 70 hours total in my
logbook, but instead of being stupid, I got some training with Martin
Stoner, and even then worked slowly up the experience ladder (working hand
in hand with my daughter Sarah who also owns the aircraft and had identical
log book experience at the beginning). We now have 670 hours on the
aircraft, nearly 500 of which are mine due to the difference in time
available and we both absolutely love it. Sarah, even with her comparatively
fewer hours has taken the aircraft from the UK, down to the south of France
and back up the west coast on a week long holiday.
Whatever it is you fly, monowheel, conventional or tri-gear, for goodness
sake get on and enjoy flying it (or building it).
Dave Watts G-BXDY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
I need some help with getting my mods PFA cleared and I have been told
the best way is to find someone else who has done my mod (or rather find
someone who's mod I have done). At present I am working on
(1) Navaid wing leveller and
(2) tail fin strobe attachment (mounted on top)
(3) NACA scoop on top of engine cowling to indcrease cold air to carbs
(scoop is operated via a choke cable - operating against a spring. There
is no plenum box just a scoop in the centre of the cowling.
Does anyone have a PFA number no for their mods (assuming they are
similar to mine) that I could quote when applying - I will need details
of the mod to confirm that it is similar.
I enclose a photo of my leveller mod. The tailfin mod should be self
explanatory ( I know its a common mod). Not sure about NACA scoop mod.
Thanks in anticipation
Carl P
I have already sent this to the Europa group but it seems that postings
with attachments dont get through. This one is minus the photo. If yu
are interested and need to see the mod I am referring to email me and I
will send attachment by return (but not via europa(at)avnet.co.uk)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Fred.
Just browsing through one or two saved messages arrived back with this one
and it occurs to me that you are still working on 350# as per PRE the "
increased bungee size mod. My mod instructions uplift the break weight to
400lbs to 500lbs with engine fitted. This means a lever applied to uplift
the tail to effect the test down on the nose wheel . When I said I pulled
down on the prop. it must have been when the break weight was 350 lbs.
Sorry to "rabbit " on about this but prefer to know you are on the safe side
.
BT W your direct e-mails still return so need to contact you via the europa
circuit.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 31 July 2001 04:32
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Cool method, but now it just hit me. The manual can be interpreted to
mean that 350# is set with reference to only the frame/leg/wheel
assembly. At least I couldn't install the bungee except with the
assembly affixed to a bench. On a completed A/C, the weight on the
nose includes some airframe weight, namely fwd of the main wheel pivot
point. So setting bungee tension to just bring weight on the nose
wheel to 350# before stretching commences is setting it at less than
they intend. That would be way less than 1G load in service to
exercise the bungee. Maybe that's (in part) why you've had problems?
Any help here? I may be in the same stew.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Bob Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Fred.
> Just browsing through one or two saved messages arrived back with this one
> and it occurs to me that you are still working on 350# as per PRE the "
> increased bungee size mod. My mod instructions uplift the break weight to
> 400lbs to 500lbs with engine fitted. This means a lever applied to uplift
> the tail to effect the test down on the nose wheel. When I said I pulled
> down on the prop. it must have been when the break weight was 350 lbs.
> Sorry to "rabbit " on about this but prefer to know you are on the safe side
Do rabbit on, Bob, except saying that here that could alarm the
ladies!
I have don't have that mod. I was just about to post re how 1/2"
bungee, and hooks instead of knots, may solve your your crowding and
thus chafing problems. That'll take another loop, and I don't know
how neat it will be and still avoid overlaps. I may actually have
400#. It was stretched at 145%, and it didn't seem it should be
subjected to more (one catalog says 140%). I have her apart anyway to
take care of those pesky V's that pinch the cord, maybe flox something
in there to widen the V.
If you do corner Europa, let me us what you learn. I am more
confused. I don't see what's wrong with occasional bungee exercise in
abnormal landing/taxing situations, as long as it doesn't chafe. Some
are designed that way I thought. As it approaches the 2" to whack the
safety cable, it takes lots of force, seemed to me. 500# is a narrow
margin against Rob Houseman's computed 700# yield strength of the gear
leg, and the caster angle of the fork could narrow that, and bend the
leg down up front. Is that what happened to you? Maybe the leg could
indeed yield before the safety limit is reached, due to sharply
increasing bungee tension.
Lever on the tail? Does that mean measure the lever arm, weigh the
nose, do the math, and apply the difference? Is that accurate w/o a
gorilla sitting on top of the fuselage fulcrum point? Especially w/o
wings installed.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clevelee(at)cswebmail.com |
| Subject: | e top & Engine Installation |
Friends,
Can any of you comment as to whether I would be well advised to do the installation
of the engine prior to bonding on the fusulage top to the canoe?
It seems as though it would be easier running the plumbing and electrics prior
to bonding on the top? Any recommendations?
Cleve
A198 MonoXS
Detroit,MI
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation |
Cleve,
Definitely bond the 'canoe' together before mounting the engine to give it rigidity.
Also to paint the fuselage separately, much easier. My machine is
upside down in the garage at present getting filled and painted.
Cheers,
Tim
clevelee(at)cswebmail.com wrote:
> Friends,
> Can any of you comment as to whether I would be well advised to do the installation
of the engine prior to bonding on the fusulage top to the canoe?
>
> It seems as though it would be easier running the plumbing and electrics prior
to bonding on the top? Any recommendations?
>
> Cleve
> A198 MonoXS
> Detroit,MI
>
> ___________________________________________________
> The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
> Better! Faster! More Powerful!
> 250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
> http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
>
--
Timothy P Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch,
NEW ZEALAND
Ph. 0064 03 3515166
email ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Mobile 025 2649325
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation |
Opposite for me: I plan to attach the top when I can't put it off any
longer: tub is in a rigid jig, and top gets skin-pinned on when required for
position or stiffness...
Miles
> Cleve,
> Definitely bond the 'canoe' together before mounting the engine to give
it rigidity. Also to paint the fuselage separately, much easier. My machine
is
> upside down in the garage at present getting filled and painted.
> Cheers,
> Tim
>
> clevelee(at)cswebmail.com wrote:
>
> > Friends,
> > Can any of you comment as to whether I would be well advised to do the
installation of the engine prior to bonding on the fusulage top to the
canoe?
> >
> > It seems as though it would be easier running the plumbing and electrics
prior to bonding on the top? Any recommendations?
> >
> > Cleve
> > A198 MonoXS
> > Detroit,MI
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Fred.
I just replied to you but somehow the computer cocked it up.
The Mod was 45 2nd October 1997. Mod 37 added the extra strengthening
members to the Mono frame and for trikes the mod.45 removed them and
supplied stronger bungee.
My Mod instructions say increase the length of bungee by 75% the distance
between the blue stipes relaxed is 12mm and stretched should be 21mm.
Now I know why my bungee failed I'm somewhat reticent that I've cut the
members out (actually left the lower 3" of the forward members in , also the
left the mono lift link stops in )
I'll advise you of developments . Has anyone spoke to Andy Draper yet over
there yet?
My nose leg failure was due to a wheel barrow event hitting the front of the
wheel bending the leg down up to 12" along the leg from the front.
Yes, when the 2" of slack on the safety strap is taken up the bungee is like
a bowstring, that's why the bump stop is cutting it .Lets face it if the
rear fulcrum of the leg moves down 2" then the bump stop welded to it at 90
deg must also move back 2"
Whilst I haven't drawn it I can see the fact without the bungee present.
To measure the shock load that begins to exercise the bungee with only my
wife present she used a long thick board with about a 4:1 lever placed
across a drum lifting up on the tail with a packing of foam to spread the
load , whilst I pulled down on the propeller and watched the digital balance
for the "break load".
I can't see the wings making a lot of difference being on the C of G but
mine were fitted anyway.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 03 August 2001 03:21
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Bob Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Fred.
> Just browsing through one or two saved messages arrived back with this one
> and it occurs to me that you are still working on 350# as per PRE the "
> increased bungee size mod. My mod instructions uplift the break weight to
> 400lbs to 500lbs with engine fitted. This means a lever applied to uplift
> the tail to effect the test down on the nose wheel. When I said I pulled
> down on the prop. it must have been when the break weight was 350 lbs.
> Sorry to "rabbit " on about this but prefer to know you are on the safe
side
Do rabbit on, Bob, except saying that here that could alarm the
ladies!
I have don't have that mod. I was just about to post re how 1/2"
bungee, and hooks instead of knots, may solve your your crowding and
thus chafing problems. That'll take another loop, and I don't know
how neat it will be and still avoid overlaps. I may actually have
400#. It was stretched at 145%, and it didn't seem it should be
subjected to more (one catalog says 140%). I have her apart anyway to
take care of those pesky V's that pinch the cord, maybe flox something
in there to widen the V.
If you do corner Europa, let me us what you learn. I am more
confused. I don't see what's wrong with occasional bungee exercise in
abnormal landing/taxing situations, as long as it doesn't chafe. Some
are designed that way I thought. As it approaches the 2" to whack the
safety cable, it takes lots of force, seemed to me. 500# is a narrow
margin against Rob Houseman's computed 700# yield strength of the gear
leg, and the caster angle of the fork could narrow that, and bend the
leg down up front. Is that what happened to you? Maybe the leg could
indeed yield before the safety limit is reached, due to sharply
increasing bungee tension.
Lever on the tail? Does that mean measure the lever arm, weigh the
nose, do the math, and apply the difference? Is that accurate w/o a
gorilla sitting on top of the fuselage fulcrum point? Especially w/o
wings installed.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Canoe top & Engine Installation |
Cleve, Hi!
Run the plumbing and electrics by all means so long as it's flexible
plumbing , but don't put the engine on first otherwise you will have a
stressed lower section and the top section won't be assisting it in the same
proportion.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 03 August 2001 03:40
Subject: Canoe top & Engine Installation
Friends,
Can any of you comment as to whether I would be well advised to do the
installation of the engine prior to bonding on the fusulage top to the
canoe?
It seems as though it would be easier running the plumbing and electrics
prior to bonding on the top? Any recommendations?
Cleve
A198 MonoXS
Detroit,MI
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Mills" <Roger.Mills(at)btinternet.com> |
Carl,
Assuming you're talking about a classic cowl, I would strongly advise
against providing just a NACA duct - you need an enclosed plenum box to
isolate the intake from the hot air in the cowl and provide cold air to the
carbs. If you measure the high pressure inlet area and compare it with the
available outlet area you will see that a simple NACA duct in the top will
be ineffective due to the pressurised hot air in the cowl (- it may even
provide another exit path?).
The factory plenum mod works well - why invent it again?
Regards
Roger Mills
141
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Europa mods
I need some help with getting my mods PFA cleared and I have been told the
best way is to find someone else who has done my mod (or rather find someone
who's mod I have done). At present I am working on
(1) Navaid wing leveller and
(2) tail fin strobe attachment (mounted on top)
(3) NACA scoop on top of engine cowling to indcrease cold air to carbs
(scoop is operated via a choke cable - operating against a spring. There is
no plenum box just a scoop in the centre of the cowling.
Does anyone have a PFA number no for their mods (assuming they are similar
to mine) that I could quote when applying - I will need details of the mod
to confirm that it is similar.
I enclose a photo of my leveller mod. The tailfin mod should be self
explanatory ( I know its a common mod). Not sure about NACA scoop mod.
Thanks in anticipation
Carl P
I have already sent this to the Europa group but it seems that postings
with attachments dont get through. This one is minus the photo. If yu are
interested and need to see the mod I am referring to email me and I will
send attachment by return (but not via europa(at)avnet.co.uk)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bill(at)wynne.co.uk |
CONFIRMATION OF AGM - 11:00 Saturday 4th August Shobdon
The weather forecast for tomorrow (4th) is not brilliant, but at least it
is better than Sunday's is expected to be. Those flying in, please
exercise care and read back airfield information - in hilly country it
helps those out of contact with the airfield to know what is going on
earlier rather than later. Also, please remember that we are still not
allowed to fly IMC in homebuilts in this country. Bill
To all members
Please note that our AGM is scheduled for 11:00 a.m. local time
Shobdon (EGBS) this Saturday the 4th August, and you are all very welcome,
thanks to the great hospitality of David Corbett (Treas). Barring
sleep-talkers we should be out of there within =BD an hour after which we
have a very full schedule, with a sight-seeing tour of 30 of Wales' most
notable places of interest. Heading South first (NB Flyer has free landing
at Swansea in Summer edition - bring it) , and North second. BBQ lunch is
with me from13:00 at Talybont (in AFE guide and on my web site as above
email address) and tea at Mona. It is not a competition but we need to
pack as much as we can in to Saturday b'cos Sunday's weather is looking
highly suspect. So unless the forecast materially improves it will
probably only be a one day event this year ending at Welshpool or Shobdon,
at around 18:30. If the weather does improve, we will descend on Mona on
Sunday (1,666 x 45 meters hard) for some RT, Landing and Practice Forced
Landing competitions. Unless the majority would prefer to build sand
castles, play marbles, tiddly winks etc., in which case I'll see you guys
next year? It'll be great to see you all again, but I gotta stress that
you must use your own discretion at all times; be responsible for your own
flight planning and follow best practice at all times. These new suing TV
ads terrify me, so take extra special care.
Bill Wynne
WWW @ N52 36' W004 04' Talybont 01654-710101
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "shamraz" <shamraz(at)yahoo.com> |
Greetings everyone,
Are there any Europa fliers/builders in the North West region of England
(especially south Manchester)? If so, would I be able to meet up with a few
to take a look at their machines and to ask a few questions as a potential
builder.
Shamraz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation |
Others have responded well, but I'd add also that installing engine
just once was beyond my ability to plan ahead and think of
everything. Especially in tri-gear, re tunnel access issue (and now
bungees...!).
R/R of engine (without fluids to drain) can be a snap. I have a
made-in-Taiwan electric hoist with remote up/dn buttons. The engine
mount bolts (installing) can be a bear, so I used temp threaded rods
with nuts. They're looser. Thence, one by one, swap with the good
ones, still hanging just so on the winch to ease loads on them.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
> Friends,
> Can any of you comment as to whether I would be well advised to do the installation
of the engine prior to bonding on the fusulage top to the canoe?
>
> It seems as though it would be easier running the plumbing and electrics prior
to bonding on the top? Any recommendations?
>
> Cleve
> A198 MonoXS
> Detroit,MI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Bob Harrison wrote:
> ....
> To measure the shock load that begins to exercise the bungee with only my
> wife present she used a long thick board with about a 4:1 lever placed
> across a drum lifting up on the tail with a packing of foam to spread the
> load , whilst I pulled down on the propeller and watched the digital balance
> for the "break load".
> ....
Thanx much, Bob. I see it now; just more lever on the tail while
still measuring up front. I wonder also if one could place blue foam
pieces on top of white engine mount and solid places of the Rotax.
Fiberboard on top, then barbell weights, electric motor, old car
battery, frozen turkey, a little fixed boost on the tail. That way
not coordinating 2 people, yanking down on prop, swinging needle or
flopping digits on scale, w/o able to see exactly when bungee stretch
commences w/o third person?
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Corbett" <David.Corbett(at)Farmline.com> |
The AGM is here at Shobdon tomorrow at 1100.
It would be a great help to us at Shobdon if those members hoping to
attend could e-mail me by replying to this, giving name, a/c
registration, and number on board.
If you could do this before 0930 tomorrow, Saturday, you will all be
stars!
I look forward to seeing you all here tomorrow - except for those who
have already sent in apologies.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. Christoph Both" <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hello:
I also had the MOD 37 extra strengthening tubes added by the
factory a few years ago. I now wonder where to fit all the bungie
cords after having converted to TRIGEAR. Ian I cut the extra tubes
OUT again? I do like them, though, as they add extra strength to
the frame. Also, who knows if I convert back to MONO once the
Glider wings come in reach?
Your comments, please!
Christoph Both #223 Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Hi! Fred.
I just replied to you but somehow the computer cocked it up.
The Mod was 45 2nd October 1997. Mod 37 added the extra strengthening
members to the Mono frame and for trikes the mod.45 removed them and
supplied stronger bungee.
My Mod instructions say increase the length of bungee by 75% the distance
between the blue stipes relaxed is 12mm and stretched should be 21mm.
Now I know why my bungee failed I'm somewhat reticent that I've cut the
members out (actually left the lower 3" of the forward members in , also the
left the mono lift link stops in )
I'll advise you of developments . Has anyone spoke to Andy Draper yet over
there yet?
My nose leg failure was due to a wheel barrow event hitting the front of the
wheel bending the leg down up to 12" along the leg from the front.
Yes, when the 2" of slack on the safety strap is taken up the bungee is like
a bowstring, that's why the bump stop is cutting it .Lets face it if the
rear fulcrum of the leg moves down 2" then the bump stop welded to it at 90
deg must also move back 2"
Whilst I haven't drawn it I can see the fact without the bungee present.
To measure the shock load that begins to exercise the bungee with only my
wife present she used a long thick board with about a 4:1 lever placed
across a drum lifting up on the tail with a packing of foam to spread the
load , whilst I pulled down on the propeller and watched the digital balance
for the "break load".
I can't see the wings making a lot of difference being on the C of G but
mine were fitted anyway.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 03 August 2001 03:21
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Bob Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Fred.
> Just browsing through one or two saved messages arrived back with this one
> and it occurs to me that you are still working on 350# as per PRE the "
> increased bungee size mod. My mod instructions uplift the break weight to
> 400lbs to 500lbs with engine fitted. This means a lever applied to uplift
> the tail to effect the test down on the nose wheel. When I said I pulled
> down on the prop. it must have been when the break weight was 350 lbs.
> Sorry to "rabbit " on about this but prefer to know you are on the safe
side
Do rabbit on, Bob, except saying that here that could alarm the
ladies!
I have don't have that mod. I was just about to post re how 1/2"
bungee, and hooks instead of knots, may solve your your crowding and
thus chafing problems. That'll take another loop, and I don't know
how neat it will be and still avoid overlaps. I may actually have
400#. It was stretched at 145%, and it didn't seem it should be
subjected to more (one catalog says 140%). I have her apart anyway to
take care of those pesky V's that pinch the cord, maybe flox something
in there to widen the V.
If you do corner Europa, let me us what you learn. I am more
confused. I don't see what's wrong with occasional bungee exercise in
abnormal landing/taxing situations, as long as it doesn't chafe. Some
are designed that way I thought. As it approaches the 2" to whack the
safety cable, it takes lots of force, seemed to me. 500# is a narrow
margin against Rob Houseman's computed 700# yield strength of the gear
leg, and the caster angle of the fork could narrow that, and bend the
leg down up front. Is that what happened to you? Maybe the leg could
indeed yield before the safety limit is reached, due to sharply
increasing bungee tension.
Lever on the tail? Does that mean measure the lever arm, weigh the
nose, do the math, and apply the difference? Is that accurate w/o a
gorilla sitting on top of the fuselage fulcrum point? Especially w/o
wings installed.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Fred.
I hope you aren't "baiting " me !!!!!
Yes ,I've been there done that got the tee shirt and bloody worn it .!!!! I
have lots of photos with up to 450 kg sitting on top of foam balanced on top
of the shiny new Jabiru crank case putting about 4.5 g load on the engine
mount that the PFA wouldn't accept , also a spring balance pulling the
engine sideways with my car tow bar until the tyres nearly rolled off the
main gear getting I don't know how many damn "g's" for the same reason .
Then would you believe they wanted both scenarios together !!!!!!!???????
Only to eventually say the engine mount was AOK since they had been using
wrong figures.
Please don't remind me of those times.????
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
Yes, do it this way then you know the engine mount is somewhere near AOK !!!
But I know my tail will take a BUNT !!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 03 August 2001 15:42
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Bob Harrison wrote:
> ....
> To measure the shock load that begins to exercise the bungee with only my
> wife present she used a long thick board with about a 4:1 lever placed
> across a drum lifting up on the tail with a packing of foam to spread the
> load , whilst I pulled down on the propeller and watched the digital
balance
> for the "break load".
> ....
Thanx much, Bob. I see it now; just more lever on the tail while
still measuring up front. I wonder also if one could place blue foam
pieces on top of white engine mount and solid places of the Rotax.
Fiberboard on top, then barbell weights, electric motor, old car
battery, frozen turkey, a little fixed boost on the tail. That way
not coordinating 2 people, yanking down on prop, swinging needle or
flopping digits on scale, w/o able to see exactly when bungee stretch
commences w/o third person?
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
HiFred.
I just posted a reply to this , going on about photos and the PFA etc. Have
you got it AOK since my "sent copy" is in the store is gobbledegook ?
Something is going on with my computer but I can't establish what.
Please advise
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 03 August 2001 15:42
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Bob Harrison wrote:
> ....
> To measure the shock load that begins to exercise the bungee with only my
> wife present she used a long thick board with about a 4:1 lever placed
> across a drum lifting up on the tail with a packing of foam to spread the
> load , whilst I pulled down on the propeller and watched the digital
balance
> for the "break load".
> ....
Thanx much, Bob. I see it now; just more lever on the tail while
still measuring up front. I wonder also if one could place blue foam
pieces on top of white engine mount and solid places of the Rotax.
Fiberboard on top, then barbell weights, electric motor, old car
battery, frozen turkey, a little fixed boost on the tail. That way
not coordinating 2 people, yanking down on prop, swinging needle or
flopping digits on scale, w/o able to see exactly when bungee stretch
commences w/o third person?
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Christopher.
The increased bungee size mod 45 for trikes details which tubes to cut out
from the mono frame. Viz:- the two strengthening ones to which you refer and
the others which are dedicated mono members, for weight saving.
I originally intended to have a trike /mono convertible and have paid a
weight penalty . On my first investigation I thought the lack of room to
reeve the bungee round the top needing to overlay some falls had trapped the
lower lays into the "vees" made by the aforementioned main strengthening
members thereby cutting them. Now I realise this is probably not the case,
more likely the blessed bump stop severing them as it was "exercised" on
heavy landings through bungee which by then was as tight a bow strings.
I have now cut away the top of the two members only which will give room to
lay all the bungee single depth.
Wish I hadn't though, since mono conversion will necessitate the tubes being
made good again which will mean taking the frame out for welding.
However I can see Europa now taking my idea on board by fixing the bump stop
at the top and allowing the rear of the nose leg to bump it directly at the
bottom.. This also will necessitate taking the frame out for welding unless
they will accept an uphand weld .
However they could say reeve the bungee round the same top place as the
mono. Which will cause me lots of grief since it would interfere with my
choke cable and throttle cable lines needing to pass through both forward
and aft falls of bungee.
My best suggestion is to now wait pending Andy Draper /and the PFA
authorising a solution.
Watch this space for more of the saga !!! The mono boys will be loving it
!!!!!
Best regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 03 August 2001 16:19
Cc: europa(at)avnet.co.uk
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Hello:
I also had the MOD 37 extra strengthening tubes added by the
factory a few years ago. I now wonder where to fit all the bungie
cords after having converted to TRIGEAR. Ian I cut the extra tubes
OUT again? I do like them, though, as they add extra strength to
the frame. Also, who knows if I convert back to MONO once the
Glider wings come in reach?
Your comments, please!
Christoph Both #223 Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Hi! Fred.
I just replied to you but somehow the computer cocked it up.
The Mod was 45 2nd October 1997. Mod 37 added the extra strengthening
members to the Mono frame and for trikes the mod.45 removed them and
supplied stronger bungee.
My Mod instructions say increase the length of bungee by 75% the distance
between the blue stipes relaxed is 12mm and stretched should be 21mm.
Now I know why my bungee failed I'm somewhat reticent that I've cut the
members out (actually left the lower 3" of the forward members in , also the
left the mono lift link stops in )
I'll advise you of developments . Has anyone spoke to Andy Draper yet over
there yet?
My nose leg failure was due to a wheel barrow event hitting the front of the
wheel bending the leg down up to 12" along the leg from the front.
Yes, when the 2" of slack on the safety strap is taken up the bungee is like
a bowstring, that's why the bump stop is cutting it .Lets face it if the
rear fulcrum of the leg moves down 2" then the bump stop welded to it at 90
deg must also move back 2"
Whilst I haven't drawn it I can see the fact without the bungee present.
To measure the shock load that begins to exercise the bungee with only my
wife present she used a long thick board with about a 4:1 lever placed
across a drum lifting up on the tail with a packing of foam to spread the
load , whilst I pulled down on the propeller and watched the digital balance
for the "break load".
I can't see the wings making a lot of difference being on the C of G but
mine were fitted anyway.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Sent: 03 August 2001 03:21
Subject: Re: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
Bob Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Fred.
> Just browsing through one or two saved messages arrived back with this one
> and it occurs to me that you are still working on 350# as per PRE the "
> increased bungee size mod. My mod instructions uplift the break weight to
> 400lbs to 500lbs with engine fitted. This means a lever applied to uplift
> the tail to effect the test down on the nose wheel. When I said I pulled
> down on the prop. it must have been when the break weight was 350 lbs.
> Sorry to "rabbit " on about this but prefer to know you are on the safe
side
Do rabbit on, Bob, except saying that here that could alarm the
ladies!
I have don't have that mod. I was just about to post re how 1/2"
bungee, and hooks instead of knots, may solve your your crowding and
thus chafing problems. That'll take another loop, and I don't know
how neat it will be and still avoid overlaps. I may actually have
400#. It was stretched at 145%, and it didn't seem it should be
subjected to more (one catalog says 140%). I have her apart anyway to
take care of those pesky V's that pinch the cord, maybe flox something
in there to widen the V.
If you do corner Europa, let me us what you learn. I am more
confused. I don't see what's wrong with occasional bungee exercise in
abnormal landing/taxing situations, as long as it doesn't chafe. Some
are designed that way I thought. As it approaches the 2" to whack the
safety cable, it takes lots of force, seemed to me. 500# is a narrow
margin against Rob Houseman's computed 700# yield strength of the gear
leg, and the caster angle of the fork could narrow that, and bend the
leg down up front. Is that what happened to you? Maybe the leg could
indeed yield before the safety limit is reached, due to sharply
increasing bungee tension.
Lever on the tail? Does that mean measure the lever arm, weigh the
nose, do the math, and apply the difference? Is that accurate w/o a
gorilla sitting on top of the fuselage fulcrum point? Especially w/o
wings installed.
Regards,
Fred F., A063
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! David.
I would have planned to come but for:-
a) my Trike bungee has had an incident so I'm grounded.Wasn't sure about
the competitions though!
b) After all the flack lately I'm not sure trikes are welcome !!!!!(Joke!)
Regards to all. Have a good day. Don't forget the committee is supposed to
be arranging some
beginners flyouts abroad .?
Best regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Kit 337 Jabiru 3300.
Ps If you are having a raffle or auction put my Hot DOG in !!!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Europa Club AGM
The AGM is here at Shobdon tomorrow at 1100.
It would be a great help to us at Shobdon if those members hoping to attend
could e-mail me by replying to this, giving name, a/c registration, and
number on board.
If you could do this before 0930 tomorrow, Saturday, you will all be stars!
I look forward to seeing you all here tomorrow - except for those who have
already sent in apologies.
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! Fred.
I've tried to rescue this message from my computer hope it now gets to you.
regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
I hope you aren't baiting me !!!!! Yes ,I've been there done that got the
tee shirt and bloody worn it .!!!! I have lots of photos with up to 450 kg
sitting on top of foam balanced on top of the shiny new Jabiru crank case
putting about 4.5 g load on the engine mount that the PFA wouldn't accept ,
also a spring balance pulling the engine sideways with my car tow bar until
the tyres nearly rolled off the main gear getting I don't know how many damn
"g's" for the same reason . Then would you believe they wanted both
scenarios together !!!!!!!??????? Only to eventually say the engine mount
was AOK since they had been using wrong figures. Please don't remind me of
those times.???? Regards Bob H G-PTAG
PS Yes, do it this way then you know the engine mount is somewhere near AOK
!!! But I know my tail will take a BUNT !!!! -----Original Message-----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com> |
Sorry to add to the load on this one, but on the same topic, are there any
in the Oxfordshire (plus Midlands and South East) area willing to offer the
same? I can't think of a better way of making a decision than to talk to
existing owners, plus research on good non-factory ideas can only pay
dividends.
Thanks for any help anyone can offer!
Best regards,
Jeremy Davey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Europa Research
Greetings everyone,
Are there any Europa fliers/builders in the North West region of England
(especially south Manchester)? If so, would I be able to meet up with a few
to take a look at their machines and to ask a few questions as a potential
builder.
Shamraz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Wigney <johnwigney(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation |
Hi Cleve,
I would recommend bonding on the top after all the wiring, plumbing and instrument
panel work hook up work is complete. In fact, do everything possible
in the fuselage before bonding. Only drawback I can think of is that the filling/priming/painting
then has to be done with the extra weight of the
engine which increases the awkwardness of manouevring and setup for spraying, etc.
To ease this problem, you can certainly fill and prime the bottom of
the canoe by inverting before engine and top installation.
Cheers, John
A099, XS 912S, N262WF
Mooresville, North Carolina
clevelee(at)cswebmail.com wrote:
> Friends,
> Can any of you comment as to whether I would be well advised to do the installation
of the engine prior to bonding on the fusulage top to the canoe?
>
> It seems as though it would be easier running the plumbing and electrics prior
to bonding on the top? Any recommendations?
>
> Cleve
> A198 MonoXS
> Detroit,MI
>
> ___________________________________________________
> The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
> Better! Faster! More Powerful!
> 250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
> http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bill(at)wynne.co.uk |
Bad news on the weather front I am afraid
The West Coast of Wales has gone from cavok to 500ft OVC with very black
menacing clouds in the last hour. Reading the 9-hour TAFs for the West
side of the UK almost everywhere is showing PROB 30 or more of (embedded)
CBs. I am so sorry. Because I now have to drive we are going to put the
AGM back to approx. 11:30 local at Shobdon and if possible we will
resurrect the Round Wales Rally for tomorrow - Sunday starting from here
(Talybont). If anyone wants to telephone me on my mobile 07831-131000 for
an update, please do so, just remember it doesn't always work in the hills
of Wales where I will be driving. Take care. Bill
WWW @ N5236' W00404' Talybont 01654-710101
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New member looking for partner. |
Hi Everyone,
i'm a new member living in S.E london, Crystall Palace
area looking for a partner with whom to build a Europa. I'm already in
possession of a europa package including the video and buying a kit from an
ex builder .Interested parties can contact me by e-mail karkelb(at)aol.com or my
mobile number 07958637162.There is a an ex-bulder selling his kit that is
already built and signed off.Good chance of getting it saving money and time.
Karim.
________________________________________________________________________________
Just about to Araldite top wing skin on. Can some one reassure me in use of
Araldite 420.
1. Do you need to warm it up before mixing to get it more fluid?
2. How long is the working time?
3. Any other tips?
Thanks, Dave Park
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Hutchinson" <hutch(at)hangarbout.fsnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Araldite 420 |
Hi Dave
1. Definitely DON'T warm it up before use...that will cause it go off too
quickly!!!
2. In ambient conditions (20degres C) you''ll have the best part of an hour
working time, but get the mix on quickly so as not to allow it to exotherm
in the pot.
3. I suggest you get a couple of helpers, one mixing up approx 1/2 a cup at
a time, then add the flox so that it doesn't run, while your buddies trowel
it onto both mating surfaces ( mark parallel lines on the underside of the
skin where the ribs will contact). Try and establish if there are voids
anywhere that will need a thicker dollop in that area, much better to put
slightly too much on than not enough. I used lengths of aluminium angle span
wise with scores of bricks on top to press the skin down. I had to buy 2
extra tins of this stuff, you'll find that in future jobs, most of it gets
sueezed out of the joints, and lands up in the waste bin... makes you cry at
something like 100 a go!!!!!!!!
Brian Hutchinson
XS 357 (90% done, 10% to go....even if it does feel the other way round!!!)
hutch(at)hangarbout.fsnet.co.uk
---- Original Message -----
From: <DvdPar(at)aol.com>
Subject: Araldite 420
> Just about to Araldite top wing skin on. Can some one reassure me in use
of
> Araldite 420.
> 1. Do you need to warm it up before mixing to get it more fluid?
> 2. How long is the working time?
> 3. Any other tips?
>
> Thanks, Dave Park
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hagar" <hagargs(at)earthlink.net> |
Dave;
Just some items that I found helpful when doing the wing skin.
Have a buddy do the mixing of the components and flox while you are
applying one batch through a cake icing bag. I believe I used about 6 mixes to
do the whole job.
It is recommended that you take a good look at your yellow component's
consistency if it is any bit pasty set the can in a pot of hot water and start
scooping it around inside the can to take away the chrystallization. Otherwise
don't heat it up after mixing it with the blue component, you are adding flox so
it isn't that fluid when you are using it. If it is warmer the working time is
less. I found that when the garage was just over 80 degrees I had just
enough time to get the job done the slop was just starting to get tacky when I
set the lid on. (about an hour) However on the other wing it was cooler
and I had more than enough time to do the job. So I would say cooler is better
than warmer for doing the hand work. Warmer is better than cooler of course for
the curing.
Make sure the lid is all trimmed to fit to your liking and ready to
go. Radius the bottom edge all along the lid where it meets the wing's surface,
basically knock the sharp corner off on the bottom all along the
periphery. Also don't try to get the edges of the lid line to line with
that of the wing. If you spend some time with fitup before bonding you will note
that if you do this the edge of the lid will want to raise ever so slightly
because the matching feature on the top of the wing mold is radiused. It is much
better to have a small gap to fill than to have to have to sand the edge of the
lid down. Believe me I know.
Put pencil marks on the top of the wing where the ribs balance boxes etc
are so after laying the top down your efforts are most efficient on pushing,
squeezing and laying your weights down. Know where you want to put every
thing before you start. Have some clamps available for the wing root edge
and have plenty of paper towels. The more slop you can wipe away before
every thing is cured the less sanding you will have to do.
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa, AZ
----- Original Message -----
From:
Subject: Araldite 420
Just about to Araldite top wing skin on. Can some one reassure
me in use of
Araldite 420.
1. Do you need to warm it up before mixing to get it more fluid?
2. How long is the working time?
3. Any other tips?
Thanks, Dave Park
--- Steve Hagar
--- hagargs(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Araldite 420 |
The pot time of all epoxy products is 95% of what you'd prefer for
construction of a vehicle carrying your carcass at altitude. :)
The big jobs are the challenge, cockpit module and fuselage top.
Those are 2-person jobs, don't dawdle, and you need to pre-weigh
smaller quantities in advance to be mixed as you go. Buttering both
mating surfaces in thinner coats is insurance there will be a better
bond if the stuff starts to gel.
I didn't do XS wings, but I'd say it's a good job for training your
future helper on the big ones. Usual cost is a beer or a burger
(unless spouse, but if her plane, I expect her to fetch the brew).
Regards,
Fred F., A063
> Just about to Araldite top wing skin on. Can some one reassure me in use of
> Araldite 420.
> 1. Do you need to warm it up before mixing to get it more fluid?
> 2. How long is the working time?
> 3. Any other tips?
>
> Thanks, Dave Park
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "hedley brown" <hedley(at)hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Canoe top & Engine Installation |
----- Original Message -----
From: hedley brown <hedley(at)hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation
> I have been having a very exasperating time having to take the engine
ff -
> would you believe - to affix the WINDSCREEN!!! I had left the screenfix
'til
> last because the instrument panel is such a sod to insert with the screen
> there (with all connectors safely sealed BEHIND the firescreen). I was
told
> by our highest authority that the windscreen is a structural component and
> must be stuck in before the engine goes on. So.... if you're thinking of
> putting the engine in before the lid goes on the boat, full marks for good
> sense - I wish I had thought of doing everything possible, including the
> middle bulkhead, before lidding the boat - but you'd better keep the move
to
> yourself, as it won't meet with the approval of our censors.....h
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
> Subject: Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation
>
>
> > Others have responded well, but I'd add also that installing engine
> > just once was beyond my ability to plan ahead and think of
> > everything. Especially in tri-gear, re tunnel access issue (and now
> > bungees...!).
> >
> > R/R of engine (without fluids to drain) can be a snap. I have a
> > made-in-Taiwan electric hoist with remote up/dn buttons. The engine
> > mount bolts (installing) can be a bear, so I used temp threaded rods
> > with nuts. They're looser. Thence, one by one, swap with the good
> > ones, still hanging just so on the winch to ease loads on them.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Fred F., A063
> >
> > > Friends,
> > > Can any of you comment as to whether I would be well advised to do the
> installation of the engine prior to bonding on the fusulage top to the
> canoe?
> > >
> > > It seems as though it would be easier running the plumbing and
electrics
> prior to bonding on the top? Any recommendations?
> > >
> > > Cleve
> > > A198 MonoXS
> > > Detroit,MI
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation |
Its OK to install the engine before front screen. Just make sure you support
the front of the engine with a trestle or sling or something. Dont let the
fuselage carry the weight.
Chances are you will need to remove the engine before painting anyway and
this is the best time to bond in the screen. It only takes half a day to
remove and disconnect the engine (less in fact). Just make sure you label
everything you disconnect. Also detatch the engine by the bolts in the
crankcase (not the bolts in the frame/ lord mounts). It is a bit tricky
reattaching the engine but very easy with a jack (if you know how - just ask
!).
Im assuming you are using a Rotax engine ?
Carl P
----- Original Message -----
From: "hedley brown" <hedley(at)hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: Canoe top & Engine Installation
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hedley brown <hedley(at)hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation
>
>
> > I have been having a very exasperating time having to take the engine
> ff -
> > would you believe - to affix the WINDSCREEN!!! I had left the screenfix
> 'til
> > last because the instrument panel is such a sod to insert with the
screen
> > there (with all connectors safely sealed BEHIND the firescreen). I was
> told
> > by our highest authority that the windscreen is a structural component
and
> > must be stuck in before the engine goes on. So.... if you're thinking of
> > putting the engine in before the lid goes on the boat, full marks for
good
> > sense - I wish I had thought of doing everything possible, including the
> > middle bulkhead, before lidding the boat - but you'd better keep the
move
> to
> > yourself, as it won't meet with the approval of our censors.....h
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
> > Subject: Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation
> >
> >
> > > Others have responded well, but I'd add also that installing engine
> > > just once was beyond my ability to plan ahead and think of
> > > everything. Especially in tri-gear, re tunnel access issue (and now
> > > bungees...!).
> > >
> > > R/R of engine (without fluids to drain) can be a snap. I have a
> > > made-in-Taiwan electric hoist with remote up/dn buttons. The engine
> > > mount bolts (installing) can be a bear, so I used temp threaded rods
> > > with nuts. They're looser. Thence, one by one, swap with the good
> > > ones, still hanging just so on the winch to ease loads on them.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Fred F., A063
> > >
> > > > Friends,
> > > > Can any of you comment as to whether I would be well advised to do
the
> > installation of the engine prior to bonding on the fusulage top to the
> > canoe?
> > > >
> > > > It seems as though it would be easier running the plumbing and
> electrics
> > prior to bonding on the top? Any recommendations?
> > > >
> > > > Cleve
> > > > A198 MonoXS
> > > > Detroit,MI
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Araldite 420 |
You shouldnt need to heat up the Redux. Once it is mixed with the hardener
it is too runny anyway and you will need to add flox (probably mentioned in
the instructions anyway).
We found a good way to dispense the Redux mix cleanly is to use a LARGE
syringe (1" diameter) with a LARGE NOZZLE. A cake icing syringe would work.
You will need to do a test to see how much flox it will take before clogging
the syringe. Also you need to work fairly fast as the mix will tend to
exotherm. Put the mix you are not using in the fridge (but dont tell the
wife !) Make sure you cover the pot and keep it away from the food. You may
need to warm it a bit when you take it out.
The point however is that once loaded in the syringe you will work much
faster and cleaner anyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: <DvdPar(at)aol.com>
Subject: Araldite 420
> Just about to Araldite top wing skin on. Can some one reassure me in use
of
> Araldite 420.
> 1. Do you need to warm it up before mixing to get it more fluid?
> 2. How long is the working time?
> 3. Any other tips?
>
> Thanks, Dave Park
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ING FOR BUILDING PARTNER. |
Hi folks,
looking for a partner to join me in the building of a europa xs
mono wheel.Preferabaly someone in SE london around crystall palace. However
if you do reside in SE London don't hesitate to contact as we could make some
arrangements.Otherwise if there is any interested party e-mail me
karkelb(at)aol.com or call my mobile no. 07958637162.
Karim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking. |
Hi! All those trike /mono hesitants like me.
Thought you would find this item from Graham Singleton interesting? ie- if
you've cut out the mono strengthening struts from the a/c frame and want to
revert back to mono (because you've got bored with trike main gear or indeed
you want to explore
the glider wings on mono main gear) Here's a method of re-fitting them. On
the other hand if you haven't yet cut them out (IMHO) just cut the top half
out (for trike bungee clearance) so as to be able to replace them with say a
sleeve and redux etc.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
PS Did anyone in the US of A get hold of Andy Draper yet, I really wanted to
fly to the East Fortune event next week but whilst this bungee debate is
ongoing I'm grounded.?
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 03 August 2001 23:31
Subject: RE: Trike Nose Leg Bungee Breaking.
>I have now cut away the top of the two members only which will give room to
>lay all the bungee single depth.
>Wish I hadn't though, since mono conversion will necessitate the tubes
being
>made good again which will mean taking the frame out for welding.
The original mod had us flox/Redux the two struts into the frame. They had
flanges welded on to the struts for this purpose. Since they are in
compression welding was not essential. They were of course welded in later
production frames.
So, you could bond them beck in if you go mono.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Stewart" <paul-d.stewart(at)virgin.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Araldite 420 |
Make sure the wing is empty before lowering the upper surfece on - I've got
the pictures to show for my mistake
Paul #432
----- Original Message -----
From: <DvdPar(at)aol.com>
Subject: Araldite 420
> Just about to Araldite top wing skin on. Can some one reassure me in use
of
> Araldite 420.
> 1. Do you need to warm it up before mixing to get it more fluid?
> 2. How long is the working time?
> 3. Any other tips?
>
> Thanks, Dave Park
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
Thanks Peter for your pearls of wisdom (and Roger Mills).
I had been thinking of incorporating Jon Tye's lower cowling ducts (G-PTYE)
to alleviate this problem and have now decided to do so (correction, already
done). It consists of a large vertical vent (like a back to front NACA)
about 12 inches behind each radiator to draw hot air out of the front end of
the engine compartment. This in turn should reduce the under cowling
pressure sufficiently to allow my cold air inlet scoop to function.
Another common mod is to use spacers about 1cm thick between the fuselage
and the base of the lower cowling to increase the gap at the bottom. It adds
quite a considerable extra area for extraction. The factory Europas also use
B&Q alloy door vents in the area beneath the silencer box - which also
prevents the cowling from getting burned (radiation from the silencer box)
Jons reckons the ducts are very worthwhile. I believe Graham Singleton used
a similar arrangement (but then he moved the radiators too)
The only drawback may be that the cockpit NACA vents could draw in warm air
instead of cold (OK in the winter maybe).
Has anyone else used this mod (Jon's that is). Incidentally it is a very
easy mod to do and only takes a day to complete - less if you use polyester
resin (which the engine cowlings are made of unlike the rest of the a/c).
One last thing - the reason I did not use the factory (or anyone elses)
plenum box is because I have an early 912 engine which has a large (9x6x4
ins) box containing the ignition coils which has to be squeezed into the
engine compartment as well as everything else.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter M. Davis" <pdavis10(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Europa mods
Hi Carl,
As I read you E-mail, your inlet scoop has no plenum chamber. As I
undestand things, any cooling problems that have arisen with the Europa
seem to have been caused, not by lack of inlet area for the radiators, but
by lack of outlet area as the under-cowl area achieves a positive pressure.
I have done the cold air plenum mod. and one of my mental queries was 'will
this affect the cooling as pre-mod the carbs were taking quite a bit of air
out from under the cowels?'
As things have turned out, I have not noticed much difference, although I
did not do enough flying last summer to be able to make a realistic
assessment.
However, if you are introducing air into the undercowl area without any
control, in the form of a plenum chamber which will prevent the air from
adding to the under-cowl pressure, then you could exaserbate any cooling
problems.
Just a thought from a totally unqualified guy.
Regards,
Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Europa Research |
>Are there any Europa fliers/builders in the North West region of England
> on the same topic, are there any
>in the Oxfordshire (plus Midlands and South East) area
[Advt]
Europa Club members get a list of all Club members, with several
appendices including one listing all Europa builders/owners worldwide
(even those not on the internet!) sorted by location.
Contact me direct to receive by e-mail an info pack about the Club
without obligation.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Wigney <johnwigney(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Araldite 420 |
Dave,
A few ideas from my experience.
1. Check that the yellow resin is free of small lumps from crystallisation. If
lumps are present, warm tin in a pan of warm water and let it soak at a modest
temp. Don't try to rush it and the crystals will go away with no trouble.
2. I could not find a lowest recommended temp for curing on the 420 data sheet,
but the lowest temp. I could find referred to on a lap strength chart was 22
degC (72 degF). I think that if you try and cure it at less than that the resin
will not cure very well and may even retain a slightly sticky surface.
Data sheet pot life is 50 gm/25 degC = 2 hours & 100 gm/25 degC = 1 hour. It is
pretty exothermic so if you do larger quantities, they will cook off quite
quickly.
3. I found that a good technique was to lightly butter both sides of the joint
plus to dispense a bead on each surface. I used inexpensive plastic sandwich
bags with the corner cut off - works fine, just like a cake icer.
4. I found that the wings panels moved slightly after I placed them and then
placed long rectangular steel tubing and weights to keep everything flat. No big
problem but next time I would use clecos at key locations to make sure
everything stays put.
Have fun!
Cheers, John
A099, XS 912S mono, N262WF
Mooresville NC
DvdPar(at)aol.com wrote:
> Just about to Araldite top wing skin on. Can some one reassure me in use of
> Araldite 420.
> 1. Do you need to warm it up before mixing to get it more fluid?
> 2. How long is the working time?
> 3. Any other tips?
>
> Thanks, Dave Park
________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks everyone for your responses. Im away for a few days now but will be
fitting top skins next week. Fuselage arriving end of the month, so have to
finnish wings.
Thanks again .....Dave Park........North Cheshire.UK.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Canoe top & Engine Installation |
I didn't do that, but I hope I was OK. In bouncing on the engine to
check out the tri-gear bungees, I saw no flexing anywhere that would
make this a concern. Pleasingly solid even.
Calling on my fake engineering degree, I figure, look, the engine
exerts loads premised on one 1G. In flight, the structure is
designed to withstand another 1.9 negative G's, probably 2.85 or
more G's under kit A/C design norms. By logical extension, some
1/8" unreinforced plastic is then a critical component to sustain
in-flight loads. Tough stuff that Perspex!
Regards,
Fred F., A063
Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
> Its OK to install the engine before front screen. Just make sure you support
> the front of the engine with a trestle or sling or something. Dont let the
> fuselage carry the weight.
> ...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk> |
Hi
Has anyone measured out the fuel capacity in the reserve chamber on the
Europa (usable/total?)?
Regards Gert
-------------------------------------------------------
Gert Dalgaard Srensen
Stabelvej 9, Haarby
DK 8660 Skanderborg
Denmark
Europa builder No. 151
OY-GDS
Phone.: +45 8695 0595
E mail: lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpeg
-------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel capacity |
Approx 10 litres on my tank in the reserve chambre and total tank approx 72
litres for total tank.
How much of reserve is useable would depend on outlet and 'sloshing' about
of fuel in tank, especially if some crept over to the non reserve side
during flight on reserve side only.
Alan
#303
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard" <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk>
Subject: Fuel capacity
Hi
Has anyone measured out the fuel capacity in the reserve chamber on the
Europa (usable/total?)?
Regards Gert
-------------------------------------------------------
Gert Dalgaard Srensen
Stabelvej 9, Haarby
DK 8660 Skanderborg
Denmark
Europa builder No. 151
OY-GDS
Phone.: +45 8695 0595
E mail: lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpeg
-------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Gert.
Mk1 Europa Main tank 14 gallons useable plus reserve 2 gallons
providing you don't go inverted !!!!( but ultimately do a calibration on
your own tank )
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Dalgaard
Sent: 05 August 2001 09:19
Subject: Fuel capacity
Hi
Has anyone measured out the fuel capacity in the reserve chamber on the
Europa (usable/total?)?
Regards Gert
-------------------------------------------------------
Gert Dalgaard Srensen
Stabelvej 9, Haarby
DK 8660 Skanderborg
Denmark
Europa builder No. 151
OY-GDS
Phone.: +45 8695 0595
E mail: lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpeg
-------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
Does anyone know what the current wisdom is on lagging exhaust
manifolds.
It was reccommended at one time to reduce engine compartment
temperatures, but was subsequently found to cause cracking of the pipes.
I believe a compromise suggestion was to only part cover the pipes.
Does anyone have any advice on this.
The car racing fraternity do this as it allegedly increases engine
power.
Also anyone know where to purchase Aeroquip fire hose (for insulating
fuel lines) ?
CP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | LOOKING FOR BUILDING PARTNER. |
Hi! All
I'm posting this again since it may be that Roland C mis read the request?
Karim is actually looking for syndicate /partners in SOUTH EAST LONDON not
the North East.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: LOOKING FOR BUILDING PARTNER.
Hi folks,
looking for a partner to join me in the building of a europa xs
mono wheel.Preferabaly someone in SE london around crystall palace. However
if you do reside in SE London don't hesitate to contact as we could make
some
arrangements.Otherwise if there is any interested party e-mail me
karkelb(at)aol.com or call my mobile no. 07958637162.
Karim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kesterton, Donald" <KestertonD(at)logica.com> |
Jeremy,
I am building a mono wheel, and am located near Milton Keynes,
Buckinghamshire, close to the Woburn VRP for Cranfield.
You are very welcome to visit. The plane is mostly built but not painted so
there is lots to see!
Donald Kesterton
Tel. 01908 372434
e-mail kestertond(at)logica.com
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Europa Research
Sorry to add to the load on this one, but on the same topic, are there any
in the Oxfordshire (plus Midlands and South East) area willing to offer the
same? I can't think of a better way of making a decision than to talk to
existing owners, plus research on good non-factory ideas can only pay
dividends.
Thanks for any help anyone can offer!
Best regards,
Jeremy Davey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Europa Research
Greetings everyone,
Are there any Europa fliers/builders in the North West region of England
(especially south Manchester)? If so, would I be able to meet up with a few
to take a look at their machines and to ask a few questions as a potential
builder.
Shamraz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | orary address for Ferg Kyle |
Following a hard disc crash, Ferg Kyle is on
jennykyle(at)sympatico.ca for a few days. He invites anyone who has sent important
emails in the last 10 days to send them again to
the above address.
John Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | er cable pulleys |
Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
"steve"
********************************************
I was measuring for the installation of the rudder cable pulley and seat
belt attachment points when I encountered a problem. The figure in
chapter 17 (fig.6) shows that the distance of the forward edge of the
embedded metal hard point should be at least 80 mm from the seat back
edge, with a value more like 90 mm being practical to keep some
separation between the seat belt attachment hole and the edge of the
installed pulley. The problem is, on my XS module the distance is only
76 mm. This means if a I follow the diagram exactly, the seat belt hole
is underneath the pulley. Even if I fudge a little and allow less than
15 mm from the hard point edge for the seat belt hole, the best I can do
is place the hole so that it intersects some portion of the metal edge.
This doesn't sound right to me. Has anyone else encountered this? I'd
hate to have to rip out the hard point and install a new one, or even
add an extension, but those are probably my only two options. Any
ideas? (BTW, same situation on both sides).
Steve Leisch
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
| Subject: | Re: rudder cable pulleys |
Hi Steve
That is correct isn't it? The pulley is mounted on spacers to bring it in
towards the centre of the tunnel, and the seat belt attachment point goes
underneath the pulley. I think that this is done to prevent the rudder
cables from fouling on the tank or sides of the cockpit module. The
reason I remember this is because I made the same assumption as I think
you are making, however, if you look from the back of the AC towards the
pulley, you will see that they have to be spaced in on order to clear.
Take care
Eddie
Quoting John Cliff :
> Forwarded from the bounce bin. Message is from
> "steve"
>
> ********************************************
>
> I was measuring for the installation of the rudder cable pulley
> and seat > belt attachment points when I encountered a problem. The
figure
> in > chapter 17 (fig.6) shows that the distance of the forward edge of
> the > embedded metal hard point should be at least 80 mm from the seat
> back > edge, with a value more like 90 mm being practical to keep some
> separation between the seat belt attachment hole and the edge of
> the > installed pulley. The problem is, on my XS module the distance is
> only > 76 mm. This means if a I follow the diagram exactly, the seat
> belt hole > is underneath the pulley. Even if I fudge a little and
allow less
> than > 15 mm from the hard point edge for the seat belt hole, the best I
> can do > is place the hole so that it intersects some portion of the
metal
> edge. > This doesn't sound right to me. Has anyone else encountered
this?
> I'd > hate to have to rip out the hard point and install a new one, or
> even > add an extension, but those are probably my only two options.
Any
> > ideas? (BTW, same situation on both sides).
>
> Steve Leisch
>
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
> info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
This message was sent by Easymail - http://www.easynet.co.uk/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Murphy <murphyj(at)avnet.co.uk> |
remove
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clevelee(at)cswebmail.com |
| Subject: | ing of fusulage top to canoe |
July 18, 2001 - August 06, 2001
Europa-Archive.digest.vol-bx