Europa-Archive.digest.vol-ce
January 07, 2002 - January 21, 2002
In a message dated 01/06/2002 8:31:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shauns(at)hevanet.com writes:
>
> Personally, I'll install a Skymap IIIC for navigation, an ACS-2002 for
> engine monitoring, and electrical
> traditional PFI. Then, like Fred says, I'll watch the market for realistic
> EFIS glass.
>
>
Yes sir, you are right in all counts. I am thinking that the future just
isn't quite here yet. The reliability of the EFIS displays should be good and
any system needs a backup -- no matter what it is. I see the standard gyro
panel in my future, even though I had visions of a modern looking EFIS panel.
I like the idea of the flexibility of displays possible with electronics, but
also realize the expense has to be justified. Right now, the non TSO electric
gyros are looking better and better. The flat plate aluminum was ordered
tonight so I am closing in on the decision of how to shape that panel. -
probably 6 round holes like they have been for decades. The beauty of
experimental is that when the future does arrive, the process of installing
it into the Europa should be straight forward.
Dave Anderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: fuel pump power |
| From: | Tony Krzyzewski <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
The Rotax manual states that they draw 3A at 1250HPa pressure reducing to 2A at
250HPa and should be protected with 5A fuses. Given the 5A fuse requirement
this leads to the expectation that the wire should be 22AWG or larger diameter.
Tony
Quoting DJA727(at)aol.com:
> Hello,
>
> Electrical wiring now in process. Does anybody out there know how much
> power
> the 914 electric pump draw? I am trying to decide the size of wire to
> use for
> those pumps.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave Anderson
> motorglider
> monowheel
> A227
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ira Rampil <rampil(at)anesthes.sunysb.edu> |
Hi All,
I too have been planning an EFIS/One for my XS Trigear. The left instrument
sub-panel needs to be extended down about 1.25" (more than you might think
due to the slope of the glareshield). I also plan a 2.25" A/S and Altimeter
on that side for backup. If I can find one, I'd like to add a 2.25" TC for
IFR backup (No vacuum planned).
I chose the EFIS/One after initially being entranced by the Dynon device. I
had taken a close look at both at Oshkosh. Initially I chose the Dynon plus
a UPS MX-20 moving map combo because of price and because I did not favor
the scanned maps of the EFIS/One. However, it seems the Dynon device is
inexpensive because it uses inexpensive sensors and the shipping schedule
keeps slipping. On the other hand Greg at Blue Mountain has kept raising
the ante. The EFIS/One now has a three axis autopilot and flight planning
among others, and it is shipping. As of last month, however, no one with a
Rotax 900 series had tried it. Also, sadly, neither of the well known
avionics dealers listed in the Blue Mountain web site as dealers with demo
equipment has received their demo equipment. Sadly, I say because I was
planning a side trip to Eastern last week while I was working at Flight
Crafters in Tampa. As an aside, Russell and I went to SkyCraft in Orlando
instead and it is fair to say that it would have taken a strong winch to
pull us out in less than the 3 hours we spent there. (Example: I bought 400'
of 20 AWG A/C wire for less than $20.00 and RG400 was less than $1.00/ft).
All that said, I really look forward to a report from Jim and Heather about
their visit to Greg's home base. If you look at the 1.90 revision software,
please check the screen update rate, i.e., is the AI and HSI smooth? Is the
HIS full featured? Are any problems foreseen in sensing the Rotax (I have
not found any show stoppers in reading the install manual)?
Regards,
Ira Rampil, A224
(Now on gear! and wings rigged! after about 21 days building at
FlightCrafters)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch> |
Does anyone have experiences with PCFLIGHTSYSTEMS' electronic horizon/ directional giro unit? Or has anyone had a close look at the system? For pocket PC owners it seems to be an alternative to an expensive conventional electric gyro system with the nice side effect, that it doesn't burn that much amps. Information on http://www.pcflightsystems.com/
Alfred Buess,
Monowheel #097 HB-YKI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Sweeting <Paul.Sweeting(at)ntl.com> |
| Subject: | ing PFA Bristol Strut members?? |
Are there any members of Bristol PFA Strut within the europa forum?
I'm seeking to finally join a PFA strut, although home base is near Cardiff,
I view the Swansea strut as being more distant and from the pfa info. shows
them to meet infrequently, Welshpool is even more out of the way.
Bristol seems more practical for me being in between Work - Reading and
home- nr Cardiff and I spend quite some time in the locality for various
other reasons.
What I seek is some 'local' opinion from a Europa builders perspective...
The only other viable alternative is the Cheltenham / Gloucester area...
Are there any other Bristol strut members from the sunnier side of the
Severn Bridge??
Perhaps I should just attend the next meeting...
cheers
Paul.
Paul R. Sweeting
HP Certified Professional - HP-UX System Administration
IBM Global Services UK - Ntl Outsource
* ntl: paul.sweeting(at)ntl.com
* ibm: sweetip(at)uk.ibm.com
The contents of this email and any attachments are sent for the personal attention
of the addressee(s) only and may be confidential. If you are not the intended
addressee, any use, disclosure or copying of this email and any attachments is
unauthorised - please notify the sender by return and delete the message. Any
representations or commitments expressed in this email are subject to contract.
ntl Group Limited
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
Aviation Consumer will be doing a review on this and the ICARUS version of
the full PFD shortly.
Shaun
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch>
Subject: Antw: EFIS/One
> Does anyone have experiences with PCFLIGHTSYSTEMS' electronic horizon/
directional giro unit? Or has anyone had a close look at the system? For
pocket PC owners it seems to be an alternative to an expensive conventional
electric gyro system with the nice side effect, that it doesn't burn that
much amps. Information on http://www.pcflightsystems.com/
>
> Alfred Buess,
> Monowheel #097 HB-YKI
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
Greg is a marvelous engineer. I'm amazed at the rate at which he puts out
new features.
But EFIS/1 is still very much a prototype; at some point you have to freeze
the design and
work out the manufacturing bugs.
I've been in too many engineering projects that have succumbed to the desire
to add
"just one more feature" and wind up being either too late to market or too
complicated to
be reliable. I wouldn't be suprised if EFIS/1 remains in engineering mode
for several months
yet.
Remember - until the design is stable, you are one of the test pilots. And
I wouldn't hand off
a demo unit to a dealer until the early adopters (test pilots) had
thoroughly wrung it out.
Shaun
----- Original Message -----
On the other hand Greg at Blue Mountain has kept raising
> the ante. The EFIS/One now has a three axis autopilot and flight planning
> among others, and it is shipping. As of last month, however, no one with
a
> Rotax 900 series had tried it. Also, sadly, neither of the well known
> avionics dealers listed in the Blue Mountain web site as dealers with demo
> equipment has received their demo equipment. >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
Shaum Simkins wrote:
> However, I'm scared that he is selling the box for about half the money he should
to ensure that
> Blue Mountain will be around to support EFIS-1 when it breaks. Or when he gets
sued by the
> relatives of a pilot whose plane hits a mountain when his EFIS-1 goes dark in
IMC.
I hadn't thought about that aspect of it. They talk about IFR use,
but I wonder when the attorneys will convince Blue Mountain they need
liability waivers from buyers stating the system will not be used in
IMC. There's big liability exposure without the thing going dark, as
all you need is readability which is less than optimum and display
updates just a little slow. Especially in the many twitchy (just
about stable enough for IFR) homebuilts out there. I find hard IFR
with real gyro instruments fairly easy, but MS Flight Simulator drives
me nuts.
Which would then raise a question as to IFR legality under FAA rules.
Homebuilts require no "IFR certification" per se, but what if you
signed such a waiver but still did so? If this thing were to fail in
IMC, causing mere ATC emergency handling, the FAA could charge
reckless operation if a VFR-only waiver were signed.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve & Eileen Genotte <gopack(at)sprintmail.com> |
Through some incredible miracle, I've again taken leave of my senses and
decided to hang on to the pieces of what will someday be N8690E. In
lieu of flowers, please send donations to the "El Roto Memorial Fund",
c/o Flightcrafters, Lakeland, Florida, USA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LYNJOHN22(at)aol.com |
My e-mail address has changed effective immediately to
john.kilian(at)verizon.net
Happy building and flying. John Kilian A046
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Reddy" <europa_a213(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Never Mind... |
Welcome back to the Loony-bin! The place just didn't seem the same without
El Roto.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve & Eileen Genotte <gopack(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Never Mind...
> Through some incredible miracle, I've again taken leave of my senses and
> decided to hang on to the pieces of what will someday be N8690E. In
> lieu of flowers, please send donations to the "El Roto Memorial Fund",
> c/o Flightcrafters, Lakeland, Florida, USA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Never Mind... |
I was saddened when I saw your kit up for sale. These hunks of foam and glue
become part of you over time. I'm glad to see your back!
Good luck ..and God bless
SteveD
A217
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | pa Weekend Workshop |
Hi All,
Is there anyone on this list who's going to this months weekend workshop?
I'm thinking along the lines of if anyone's going from the south of the UK
(or close to Oxford), we might be able to share a lift and cost of fuel.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
Ferg Kyle has provided an idea for remote operation of the fuel selector valve, see under Modifications at http://www.crix.org.uk
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Sweeting <Paul.Sweeting(at)ntl.com> |
| Subject: | Door strut question - addendum |
Hmm, seen something similar but simpler fitted to large vertical opening
Double glazed windows and some doors, to pull in the corner.
This involves two pieces of plastic near the pivot, one piece being shaped
at a 30 degree point attached to the unit, and a 45 degree bevel attached
near the corner of the frame in line with the pivot.
Illustration of the open position...
*
*
* *
* *
* * * ______________
\
\
\ Part attached to frame
\
\__________
Illustration of the closed position...
_____________
******\
Part *\
Attached *\ Part attached to frame
to Unit * \
****** \_________
Constructed with elongated holes in the part attached to the frame to allow
for adjustment.
cheers
Paul.
Paul R. Sweeting
HP Certified Professional - HP-UX System Administration
IBM Global Services UK - Ntl Outsource
* ntl: paul.sweeting(at)ntl.com
* ibm: sweetip(at)uk.ibm.com
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: RE: Door strut question - addendum
>
>
> A quick concept sketch can be found at:
> http://www.zutrasoft.com/europastuff/
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
> A239
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: Door strut question - addendum
>
>
> Sounds like a good Idea to me. Please keep us posted. How
> about a drawing?
> Thanks!
>
> SteveD
> A217
>
The contents of this email and any attachments are sent for the personal attention
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addressee, any use, disclosure or copying of this email and any attachments is
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representations or commitments expressed in this email are subject to contract.
ntl Group Limited
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Europa Aircraft" <europa(at)gate.net> |
Steve,
Glad to hear that you decided to hang in there! If you need anything, we
are always here to help at the Lakeland, FL office.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Genotte
Subject: Never Mind...
Through some incredible miracle, I've again taken leave of my senses and
decided to hang on to the pieces of what will someday be N8690E. In
lieu of flowers, please send donations to the "El Roto Memorial Fund",
c/o Flightcrafters, Lakeland, Florida, USA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | ing aluminum choobs |
Cheers,
In the course of preparing for the diesel, and hoping not to
change fuel lines every five years, I turned toward 3/8inch OD 3052 tubing
as an alternative. I had always admired the mystique of the choobender at my
elbow at the museum. His nimble fingers would fashion an intricate tubular
design in minutes. When he wasn't looking, I'd purloin a short length and
turn it into angular doodoo - not a desired skill. he caught me at it one
day and from then on he would turn away to produce some pleasing shape,
almost like the guy in the next stall.
The resultant shame left me bereft of self-esteem until it
became clear I would have to turn out something similar for myself. When I
dove into the "technology", I discovered many experts - the greatest of
whom guaranteed success simply by sending them out to the 'shop'. Several
others assumed leadership by espousing the frozen water centre, the salt
crystals centre and the sand centre methodologies - all unarguably the
finest. I bought an auto bender for $16 and produced some amazing shapes
none of which would pass kindergarten muster. However, the lust never left
me and having at last discovered the secret, produced my own in half an
afternoon. Since then I have been offering my skills to whomever turns the
corner on our short street.
Pride allows me to surf over casual rebuffs.
The secret is the 'walls'. You can bend this stuff over any kind
of surface you want, but it won't succeed until you find 'walls'. I refer to
the height of the sides of the pulley around which one forces the tubing. If
you can find a (in my case) 3/8inch rope pulley with sides exactly 3/8inch
apart, AND rising higher than halfway up the sides, these 'walls' will
prevent the tubing from deformation outwards and it will comply with the
bend - and not kink. My 'find' was in a large hardware (ironmongers) store
which carried ranchstyle hardware for gates and barns. There, amongst a
range of sizes was a substantial pulley (sheave) with an accurate 3/8inch
wheel with high sides. I bought two diameters of this model, drilled a soft
steel 1/4"x 1"x12" bar such that the wheel rims touched and my bender was
born. I can now bend with a light heart to either 1-1/2" radius or 1"
radius. Total cost was $7 plus too much tax Canadian, or about 17cents US.
Now if I can just succeed in puttiing the fittings on first, all will be
well.
If you were unaware of this breakthrough in Space tech, then my
mission is justified. If you already knew, why didn't you tell me before?
Ferg
A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
For Europa-philes in the USA,
(my aplology to you others for the long e-mail)
As many of you are probably aware, the yellow
press are in a feeding frenzy over the C172 crash
in Tampa.
Demands are being made for metal detectors
and bag searches before boarding private planes,
and for 24 hour security staffing for all air fields
(NBC Nightly News). Other media experts were
recommending GA be kept 100+ miles away from
major cities. A CNN pole indicated 63% of the public
were in favor of more controls on GA.
I believe we cannot rely on AOPA and others to
save us from this one, we need to participate as well.
I have written to several news media, and my senators
and representatives, and I recommend you all do the same.
E-Mail to your representatives can be made at the following
web sites; www.house.gov and www.senate.gov
An example of the things being said by the media is at;
http://www.msnbc.com/news/683579.asp
I tended to focus my letters on the following;
1) There is no valid reason to believe that small planes
weighing less than an economy car are a danger to society,
the crash in Tampa proves that.
2) Threat is a function of vehicle weight, therefore cars/trucks
are more dangerous than small planes (Cessna 172 1400#,
economy car ~2800#).
3) A weak excuse has been given that cars can be barred by
barriers, but not planes. Where are all these barriers? When
will every business, school, church, and home have them installed?
4) Hysteria over aviation and resulting irrational reactions have cost
jobs, businesses, and even lives (an article during Thanksgiving pointed
out increased auto/decreased air travel would cause a larger number of
traffic deaths over the holidays).
5) Those who attack GA for the sake of cheap sensationalism
are no better than the couple who faked the wife's death
on 9/11 for the money.
regards,
Terry Seaver
ps - If you use some of my ideas in a letter, please modify
my text enough so the two letters don't look like a form letter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clevelee(at)cswebmail.com |
| Subject: | Re: Light weight carpet |
An auto upholstery shop also has trunk lining/headlining materials. Carpet has
tough fibers and very thin backing. Very light, even use a couple of pieces
as seat protectors for stepping on to the seats. These have worked great for
10 years in my Emeraude.
Cleve Lee
A198 Mono XS
Detroit, MI
On Wed, 02 January 2002, "Dave Simpson" wrote:
>
> Try to get hold of some exhibition carpet. This is the stuff which is used
> temporarily for walkways and stands at various exhibitions. It's not very
> hard wearing but presumably you don't intend to use the rear shelf as a
> dance floor.
>
> Dave Simpson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul McAllister <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>
> Subject: Light weight carpet
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I am think of putting a carpet mat on the rear shelf and as floor mats.
> > Normal domestic carpet seems to weigh a lot. Does any one know of a
> carpet
> > type that isn't quite as weighty ?
> >
> > Thanks, Paul
> >
> >
>
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nick Hammond <nick.hammond(at)saabsystems.com.au> |
| Subject: | Bending aluminum choobs |
Fergus,
> If you can find a (in my case) 3/8inch rope pulley with sides
> exactly 3/8inch apart, AND rising higher than halfway up the sides,
> these 'walls' will prevent the tubing from deformation outwards
> and it will comply with the bend - and not kink.
Another method is a bending spring with an ID equal to the tube OD (or vice
versa). These are generally available from plumbers suppliers. The 3/8 inch
size can be a bit hard to find but I managed to find an internal 1/2 inch
bender which had an ID only slightly greater than 3/8 inch. This needed a
bit of surgery to remove the reduced end (which makes it easier to thread
into the 1/2 in) pipe and substitute a flare (which makes it easier to
thread over a 3/8 inch pipe).
Best regards,
Nick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Media attacks on GA |
As a Brit on holiday in Florida, (I was in Tampa today) I agree with Terry
that the media in the US is in a frenzy over the 15 year old crashing into a
Tampa high rise.
The good news is that AOPA and other Aviation experts are talking sensibly
about overreaction and this being a one off incident. In the words of a
local newspaper 'only 15 out of 221k planes were stolen in the USA in 2001'
however 'twice that many cars are stolen every week in Orlando alone'.
However, the politicians are jumping on the band wagon (Jeb Bush is on the
TV as I write this) and they demand votes from a frightened populace.
The 15 year old was supposed to preflight the Cessna before a lesson but he
jumped in, took off without radio contact, the authorities did alert the Air
Force (he overflew a major base close to Tampa, but they did not consider
him to be a threat) and he was intercepted by a Coast Guard helicopter and
still hit the skyscraper. He was said to be 'quiet by nature' and wanted to
be a military pilot because of Sept
11th.
My own experience is that flying is free and easy but very well controlled
in the US. There are so many airports and planes around and yet no one has
commented about the gun lobby and the threat to the populace.
Happy New Year to all in Europa land
Steve Pitt #403
----Original Message-----
From: Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com>
Date: 08 January 2002 22:24
Subject: Media attacks on GA
>For Europa-philes in the USA,
>(my aplology to you others for the long e-mail)
>
>As many of you are probably aware, the yellow
>press are in a feeding frenzy over the C172 crash
>in Tampa.
> Demands are being made for metal detectors
>and bag searches before boarding private planes,
>and for 24 hour security staffing for all air fields
>(NBC Nightly News). Other media experts were
>recommending GA be kept 100+ miles away from
>major cities. A CNN pole indicated 63% of the public
>were in favor of more controls on GA.
> I believe we cannot rely on AOPA and others to
>save us from this one, we need to participate as well.
>I have written to several news media, and my senators
>and representatives, and I recommend you all do the same.
>E-Mail to your representatives can be made at the following
>web sites; www.house.gov and www.senate.gov
>
>An example of the things being said by the media is at;
>http://www.msnbc.com/news/683579.asp
>
>I tended to focus my letters on the following;
>
>1) There is no valid reason to believe that small planes
>weighing less than an economy car are a danger to society,
>the crash in Tampa proves that.
>2) Threat is a function of vehicle weight, therefore cars/trucks
>are more dangerous than small planes (Cessna 172 1400#,
>economy car ~2800#).
>3) A weak excuse has been given that cars can be barred by
>barriers, but not planes. Where are all these barriers? When
>will every business, school, church, and home have them installed?
>4) Hysteria over aviation and resulting irrational reactions have cost
>jobs, businesses, and even lives (an article during Thanksgiving pointed
>
>out increased auto/decreased air travel would cause a larger number of
>traffic deaths over the holidays).
>5) Those who attack GA for the sake of cheap sensationalism
>are no better than the couple who faked the wife's death
>on 9/11 for the money.
>
>regards,
>Terry Seaver
>
>ps - If you use some of my ideas in a letter, please modify
>my text enough so the two letters don't look like a form letter.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | her EFIS option???? |
Does anybody know anything about this option -- the Digifly EFIS display?
http://www.integrityonline15.com/wwerner/Composite_Design_Homepage.htm
I am about to order the engine instrumentation IK2000 and still hope for a
good EFIS at a reasonable price. The Digifly seems like it might have an
option to purchase with just the basic flight instruments. I will be calling
them tomorrow.
Dave
A227
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Media attacks on GA |
To get on to the airfield I use, Miller in New Jersey, I had to get an ID
card, finger printed, and a back round check. The sheriffs dept. has a car on
site 24-7. We cannot drive to our planes nor to our hangers, everything has
to be carried in. Yet within minutes by air are several airports guarded only
by a wind sock. If you think it can't happen at your field, think again. Take
the time and write.
Thanks for your time,
Steve Dunsmuir
A217
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: another EFIS option???? |
Check out the display in bright light. I think it's used on the Pegasus
CT.
Jerry
LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
----- Original Message -----
From: DJA727(at)aol.com
Subject: another EFIS option????
Does anybody know anything about this option -- the Digifly EFIS
display?
http://www.integrityonline15.com/wwerner/Composite_Design_Homepage.htm
I am about to order the engine instrumentation IK2000 and still hope
for a good EFIS at a reasonable price. The Digifly seems like it might
have an option to purchase with just the basic flight instruments. I
will be calling them tomorrow.
Dave
A227
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "david joyce" <davidjoyce(at)beeb.net> |
| Subject: | Disaster with Europa Trailer |
I have just come close to having my day entirely ruined by a design
fault in the open Europa trailer.I was for the first time trailing my
newly completed plane back from the Gloucester Strut Europa evening.
Half way home I turned off the motorway to stop to talk to my inspector
(to tell him how impressed people were with the gel coat finish). In
walking past it I noticed that the ballhitch was almost completely
seperated from the main girder of the trailer, and waiting for just one
more bump before parting completely. This version of the (company
supplied) trailer has the ball hitch attachment bolted to the top leaf
only of the square section main girder.This top leaf had started to peel
upwards from the side elements of the girder and reached about 45
degrees when I found it, with the bent bit attaching to the beam looking
very sick.
The message for those of you with open trailers is to check the
design and if it is one like mine I suggest as a minimum putting new
longer bolts right through the complete box section with some sort of
spacer inside the box section and large washers underneath. David Joyce
402
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | OFF THE PRESS......WIDE DOORS!! |
Hi Folks,
once again i bring you news that will make some of you sing.
The wide doors are coming ...That means abit more comfort for wide shouldered
folk like me. This has been a long time coming,but i'm sure the factory are
doing their best to cater for all sizes. More details to come....watch this
space!!
Karim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: another EFIS option???? |
Here are some other PFD webpages:
http://www.finesse-max.com/instruments/pfd2525.htm (France)
http://users.iafrica.com/a/am/amptro/ (south africa)
ACS sells the PFD2525. I have no info on the amptronics offering.
Shaun
----- Original Message-----
From: LTS
Subject: Re: another EFIS option????
Check out the display in bright light. I think it's used on the
Pegasus CT.
Jerry
LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
----- Original Message -----
From: DJA727(at)aol.com
Subject: another EFIS option????
Does anybody know anything about this option -- the Digifly EFIS
display?
http://www.integrityonline15.com/wwerner/Composite_Design_Homepage.htm
I am about to order the engine instrumentation IK2000 and still hope
for a good EFIS at a reasonable price. The Digifly seems like it might
have an option to purchase with just the basic flight instruments. I
will be calling them tomorrow.
Dave
A227
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jonathan Moyle <jmoyle(at)epo.org> |
16:49:04,
Serialize by Router on thmail/EPON(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 09-01-2002
16:49:05,
Itemize by SMTP Server on rout01/EPOR(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at
09/01/2002
16:49:05,
Serialize by Router on rout01/EPOR(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 09/01/2002
16:49:07,
Another all-singing, all -dancing, cooks your breakfast EFIS is the
Flycom Preform. About 6000Euro (5280$) , check it out on their website -
currently only in german: www.fb-flugtechnik.de
Jonathan (#330)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DuaneFamly(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: HOT OFF THE PRESS......WIDE DOORS!! |
Will people have the option of retrofiting their existing doors?
Mike Duane, Redding, California
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: yet another EFIS |
> Another all-singing, all -dancing, cooks your breakfast EFIS is the
> Flycom Preform. About 6000Euro (5280$) , check it out on their website -
> currently only in german: www.fb-flugtechnik.de
Do you mean this one -
http://www.fb-flugtechnik.de/Produkte/FlyCom_perform/flycom_perform.html?
It looks like a bit of paper map and inkjet printed ASI/ALT. I always think
there something a bit dodgy about a company who advertises like that.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jonathan Moyle <jmoyle(at)epo.org> |
| Subject: | Re: yet another EFIS |
18:15:33,
Serialize by Router on thmail/EPON(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 09-01-2002
18:15:34,
Itemize by SMTP Server on rout01/EPOR(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at
09/01/2002
18:15:34,
Serialize by Router on rout01/EPOR(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 09/01/2002
18:15:34,
Yes that one, dodgy or not it exists and has been reviewed in the German press.
I have spoken with the engineers and it is clear that thier efforts are more
towards engineering than marketing.
Jonathan (#330)
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com wrote:
> > Another all-singing, all -dancing, cooks your breakfast EFIS is the
> > Flycom Preform. About 6000Euro (5280$) , check it out on their website -
> > currently only in german: www.fb-flugtechnik.de
>
> Do you mean this one -
> http://www.fb-flugtechnik.de/Produkte/FlyCom_perform/flycom_perform.html?
>
> It looks like a bit of paper map and inkjet printed ASI/ALT. I always think
> there something a bit dodgy about a company who advertises like that.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark.
>
> ________________________________
> Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
> europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
> http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I've seen a couple of emails asking about French NOTAMS.
This site is going live later this month.
http://www.sia.dgac.fr/default_uk.htm
Alan
#303
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Rauchfuss - PCD <brauchfu(at)pcocd2.intel.com> |
| Subject: | ing Gear Mounting Frame |
I am trying to get my landing gear mounting frame into the front of the
firewall. Boy, it's a tight fit! How have people gone about this?
I tried hitting it with a mallet, but there was not much progress.
Also, how do you get it in: put the lower legs into their holes and
then pound the top in, or try to get it to go in simultaneously?
And finally: how did you drill the holes for the lower legs? I don't think
I have a very good position marked, so if I use a minimum sized hole of 3/4"
they will probably not be in the right place.
Brian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | x engine failure in G-BWGH |
I recently received a communication from a Europa Club member,
indicating that he would not be renewing membership at the end of
March. He has given me permission to share his reasons with you, in
the hope that it might save someone else some grief. Here follows a
partial quote from his message about G-BWGH:
>Golf Hotel was the Europa that tried to land on Sark, and has now
>been written off by our insurers.
>The cause was a stripped thread on the single bolt holding on a
>rocker box cover. It took 60 hours + to work loose after replacement
>of the rocker shaft bushes, and then let go all the oil within 5
>minutes of take off from Jersey. No prior warning dribbles, just a
>catastrophic engine failure with 30 seconds notice of overheating.
>I have to question whether a single steel bolt into an alloy head
>securing a critical component is good aeronautic engineering
>practice, but at least none of our group was responsible for
>ignoring the torque settings.
>Incidentally do you think all Europa operators have laid out the 80
>on top of a 6000 engine to buy the workshop manual giving the
>torque settings? For anyone who has not - do so, it could save your
>aircraft.
>I was not the pilot, and nobody was even scratched, but I have taken
>umbrage at the sheer waste of time,effort and cash in turning GH
>into a really nice tourer, and I am retiring hurt from the air for
>the forseeable.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bending aluminum choobs |
>If
>you can find a (in my case) 3/8inch rope pulley with sides exactly 3/8inch
>apart, AND rising higher than halfway up the sides, these 'walls' will
>prevent the tubing from deformation outwards
Failing that, perhaps a cast-iron blank from one the
model-engineering suppliers, or a pulley _nearly_ the right size,
might be persuaded to do duty after massage on a friendly nearby
lathe. You'll probably need a heavier one than my Cowells 90, though!
But thinking further, my bender for 15mm copper plumbing pipe has
aluminium "pulleys", so that would be easier to machine, if more
expensive in raw materials.
In any case, I'm sure I've seen advertised little benders like
miniature versions of the one mentioned above - maybe their range of
sizes (usually 3, from memory) does not cover the aluminium pipe
preferred for fuel carrying. More research needed ...
regards
Rowland
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Bending aluminum choobs |
> >If> >you can find a (in my case) 3/8inch rope pulley with sides exactly
3/8inch> >apart, AND rising higher than halfway up the sides, these 'walls'
will
> >prevent the tubing from deformation outwards>
> Failing that, perhaps a cast-iron blank from one the > model-engineering
suppliers, or a pulley _nearly_ the right size, > might be persuaded to do
duty after massage on a friendly nearby > lathe. You'll probably need a
heavier one than my Cowells 90, though!>
> But thinking further, my bender for 15mm copper plumbing pipe has
> aluminium "pulleys", so that would be easier to machine, if more >
expensive in raw materials.>
> In any case, I'm sure I've seen advertised little benders like > miniature
versions of the one mentioned above - maybe their range of > sizes (usually
3, from memory) does not cover the aluminium pipe preferred for fuel
carrying. More research needed ...> regards> Rowland
Cheers,
First, thanks for all the (I think) accolades. The piece was
written in a fit of pique - but another time.
After having read a number of retorts (ribald ripostes,
actually)it occurred to me that I might get some sample pulleys if your
local metalhoarder doesn't stock same. If driven, I might even dig out the
offal and read the maker's name for those in NA.
Whatever,
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Erich D Trombley <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com> |
Greetings. Quick question. What have folks been using for an air filter
on the 914?
Regards,
Erich Trombley
A028
Las Vegas, NV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nick Hammond <nick.hammond(at)saabsystems.com.au> |
| Subject: | Landing Gear Mounting Frame |
Brian,
Snap -- did this yesterday and had similar sort of problems.
The geometry makes it easy to make the holes too low. I drilled 5/8 with a
spade cutter and then widened them by hand with the sanding drum on a
Dremel, but found that most of the material had to be taken off the top of
the holes. The upper legs are a tight fit sideways and it was necessary to
grind most of the resin off the aluminium plates at either side of the top
of the tunnel. Once I got it started in the holes, it was a question of
marking with chalk to find the high spots (both in the top of the tunnel and
the fuselage floor) and then grinding these back with the Dremel.
A tip I adopted from John Baker was to redux pieces of solid aluminium rod
inside the legs to reinforce the holes and stop any tendency of the legs to
collapse when the bolts were tightened.
Best regards,
Nick
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Landing Gear Mounting Frame
I am trying to get my landing gear mounting frame into the front of the
firewall. Boy, it's a tight fit! How have people gone about this?
I tried hitting it with a mallet, but there was not much progress.
Also, how do you get it in: put the lower legs into their holes and
then pound the top in, or try to get it to go in simultaneously?
And finally: how did you drill the holes for the lower legs? I don't think
I have a very good position marked, so if I use a minimum sized hole of 3/4"
they will probably not be in the right place.
Brian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gte.net> |
Hi all, I think I want to install turnbuckles on the rudder cables and also
on the TP counterweight cables. ACS page 137 has an AN140-8s that I think
will work for the TP and the AN140-16s for the rudder cable? Am I on the
right track?
Thanks, Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Popenoe" <cpops(at)bellatlantic.net> |
Hi Kevin-
I think that I would use the -16S, with 1600 lbs strength. I don't think
that the -8S will even take the thimbles for the cables. At least, 16S is
what I am using!
Pops
A036
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: turnbuckles
Hi all, I think I want to install turnbuckles on the rudder cables and also
on the TP counterweight cables. ACS page 137 has an AN140-8s that I think
will work for the TP and the AN140-16s for the rudder cable? Am I on the
right track?
Thanks, Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
Hi
Actually, we are thinking of doing the same thing. I have been looking
for those type of connectors you get on mast stays.
Do you know the diameter of the cable or it's spec only I am not in
the UK at the moment?
There there are several rigging suppliers in San Francisco and I
intend to go searching next week when I get a day off. I will let you
know what I find.
ps anyone know of a aircraft hardware supplier in the bay area? I
can't find one at the moment. I refuse to believe that there aren't
any!!!
Cheers
Ed
Quoting Kevin Klinefelter :
> Hi all, I think I want to install turnbuckles on the rudder cables
and
> also
> on the TP counterweight cables. ACS page 137 has an AN140-8s that I
> think
> will work for the TP and the AN140-16s for the rudder cable? Am I on
> the
> right track?
> Thanks, Kevin
>
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
Use the MS series with the clips which will save you having to safety
wire them.
For each turnbuckle you need...
1 x MS21251-BS Barrel
1 x MS21255-3LS
1 x MS21255-3RS
2 x MS21256-1 clips
This gives you a turnbuckle with cable eyes.
A tip. When installing the ends, position the cable eyes so that the
groove to take the pin is pointing towards to the inspection hole. When
you ever come to adjust the turnbuckle you'll find it easier to reinsert
the pin if you can see the groove.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
>> There there are several rigging suppliers in San Francisco and I
intend to go searching next week when I get a day off.
This is an area that you definitely do not want to use anything other
than AN/MS aeronautical parts. Do not use nautical fittings for these
turnbuckles.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JW <xs191(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: yet another EFIS |
Here is a translation.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fb-flugtechnik.de%2FProdukte%2FFlyCom_perform%2Fflycom_perform.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
Hopefully that will work for you.
Jonathan Moyle wrote:
> Another all-singing, all -dancing, cooks your breakfast EFIS is the
> Flycom Preform. About 6000Euro (5280$) , check it out on their website -
> currently only in german: www.fb-flugtechnik.de
>
> Jonathan (#330)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
Mmm, you're probably right there, I am not sure if there would be any
difference, but it is a critical part!
Good point!
Ed
Quoting "Tony S. Krzyzewski" :
>
> >> There there are several rigging suppliers in San Francisco and I
> intend to go searching next week when I get a day off.
>
> This is an area that you definitely do not want to use anything
other
> than AN/MS aeronautical parts. Do not use nautical fittings for
these
> turnbuckles.
>
> Tony
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gte.net> |
Thanks Tony, Is it advisable to install one or two on the TP cables?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: turnbuckles
Use the MS series with the clips which will save you having to safety
wire them.
For each turnbuckle you need...
1 x MS21251-BS Barrel
1 x MS21255-3LS
1 x MS21255-3RS
2 x MS21256-1 clips
This gives you a turnbuckle with cable eyes.
A tip. When installing the ends, position the cable eyes so that the
groove to take the pin is pointing towards to the inspection hole. When
you ever come to adjust the turnbuckle you'll find it easier to reinsert
the pin if you can see the groove.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
Thanks Tony, Is it advisable to install one or two on the TP cables?
Install one into each of the cables... ie you need four or six
turnbuckles all told. Six if you have Graham's tailwheel mod, four if
you don't.
Some people have been able to install the counterbalance arm wire
without turnbuckles but I found that they came in really useful for
tweaking the position of the arm so that it ran centrally within
counterbalance guide. The ones in the rudder cables running internally
will allow you to adjust the cable easily and will also allow you to
draw the cables forward from underneath the pulleys to check for wear.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave DeFord" <davedeford(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Near Disaster with Europa Trailer |
We had the same experience over a year ago (as we reported on this forum),
but were lucky to catch the failure at an earlier stage. Our fix was
similar to your suggestion, but we used a steel plate on the bottom of the
box beam (rather than large washers) to carry the load directly to the
vertical sides of the beam.
Dave DeFord
N135TD
----- Original Message -----
From: "david joyce" <davidjoyce(at)beeb.net>
Subject: Near Disaster with Europa Trailer
I have just come close to having my day entirely ruined by a design fault in
the open Europa trailer.I was for the first time trailing my newly completed
plane back from the Gloucester Strut Europa evening. Half way home I turned
off the motorway to stop to talk to my inspector (to tell him how impressed
people were with the gel coat finish). In walking past it I noticed that the
ballhitch was almost completely seperated from the main girder of the
trailer, and waiting for just one more bump before parting completely. This
version of the (company supplied) trailer has the ball hitch attachment
bolted to the top leaf only of the square section main girder.This top leaf
had started to peel upwards from the side elements of the girder and reached
about 45 degrees when I found it, with the bent bit attaching to the beam
looking very sick.
The message for those of you with open trailers is to check the
design and if it is one like mine I suggest as a minimum putting new longer
bolts right through the complete box section with some sort of spacer inside
the box section and large washers underneath. David Joyce 402
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gordon Murray <gordon.murray(at)chello.at> |
| Subject: | Re: yet another EFIS |
If I ever manage to build to begin, me is it right, when this translator with my
how to leaflet nothing to make has.
Gordon Murray,
Vienna
JW wrote:
> Here is a translation.
>
> http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fb-flugtechnik.de%2FProdukte%2FFlyCom_perform%2Fflycom_perform.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
>
> Hopefully that will work for you.
>
> Jonathan Moyle wrote:
>
> > Another all-singing, all -dancing, cooks your breakfast EFIS is the
> > Flycom Preform. About 6000Euro (5280$) , check it out on their website -
> > currently only in german: www.fb-flugtechnik.de
> >
> > Jonathan (#330)
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Stewart" <helsys(at)packet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Near Disaster with Europa Trailer |
Another design fault of the Europa trailer is the lack of safety chains.
Most states in the US require safety chains by law, and even if they
were not required it makes a lot of sense to have them.
The first thing I did when I got the factory trailer was to put safety
chains on. It takes only a few dollars and a few minutes.
Twice in my life I have had trailers separate from the ball for one
reason or another, only to be saved by the safety chains.
Bill Stewart
----- Original Message -----
From: david joyce
Subject: Near Disaster with Europa Trailer
I have just come close to having my day entirely ruined by a design
fault in the open Europa trailer.I was for the first time trailing my
newly completed plane back from the Gloucester Strut Europa evening.
Half way home I turned off the motorway to stop to talk to my inspector
(to tell him how impressed people were with the gel coat finish). In
walking past it I noticed that the ballhitch was almost completely
seperated from the main girder of the trailer, and waiting for just one
more bump before parting completely. This version of the (company
supplied) trailer has the ball hitch attachment bolted to the top leaf
only of the square section main girder.This top leaf had started to peel
upwards from the side elements of the girder and reached about 45
degrees when I found it, with the bent bit attaching to the beam looking
very sick.
The message for those of you with open trailers is to check
the design and if it is one like mine I suggest as a minimum putting new
longer bolts right through the complete box section with some sort of
spacer inside the box section and large washers underneath. David Joyce
402
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Landing Gear Mounting Frame |
Hi! Brian.
Long time ago since I did it but it certainly only goes in with difficulty.
I recall that it kind of pivoted in either top first to start or bottom
first to start. The key is to remember that the bottom members need to be
snug to the floor and sides of the tunnel and similarly the top members need
to snuggle up to the top corners of the inside of the tunnel.
If you can keep it going parrallel to both positions at the same time you'll
get there.
I used a rubber mallet as per tin bashers type !
Hole sizes I don't remember but you can't go any higher than in line with
the top of the tunnel and similarly no lower than the cockpit floor.
Hope this helps?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG 337 Europa MKI /Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
PCD
Subject: Landing Gear Mounting Frame
I am trying to get my landing gear mounting frame into the front of the
firewall. Boy, it's a tight fit! How have people gone about this?
I tried hitting it with a mallet, but there was not much progress.
Also, how do you get it in: put the lower legs into their holes and
then pound the top in, or try to get it to go in simultaneously?
And finally: how did you drill the holes for the lower legs? I don't think
I have a very good position marked, so if I use a minimum sized hole of 3/4"
they will probably not be in the right place.
Brian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Mills" <Roger.Mills(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
I can't remember without looking at the engine - but does anyone know
whether it would be practical/permissible/appropriate to drill a hole in the
bolt head and apply wire-locking as a precaution?
Regards
Roger Mills
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Carson
Subject: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH
I recently received a communication from a Europa Club member,
indicating that he would not be renewing membership at the end of
March. He has given me permission to share his reasons with you, in
the hope that it might save someone else some grief. Here follows a
partial quote from his message about G-BWGH:
>Golf Hotel was the Europa that tried to land on Sark, and has now
>been written off by our insurers.
>The cause was a stripped thread on the single bolt holding on a
>rocker box cover. It took 60 hours + to work loose after replacement
>of the rocker shaft bushes, and then let go all the oil within 5
>minutes of take off from Jersey. No prior warning dribbles, just a
>catastrophic engine failure with 30 seconds notice of overheating.
>I have to question whether a single steel bolt into an alloy head
>securing a critical component is good aeronautic engineering
>practice, but at least none of our group was responsible for
>ignoring the torque settings.
>Incidentally do you think all Europa operators have laid out the 80
>on top of a 6000 engine to buy the workshop manual giving the
>torque settings? For anyone who has not - do so, it could save your
>aircraft.
>I was not the pilot, and nobody was even scratched, but I have taken
>umbrage at the sheer waste of time,effort and cash in turning GH
>into a really nice tourer, and I am retiring hurt from the air for
>the forseeable.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
> I can't remember without looking at the engine - but does anyone know
> whether it would be practical/permissible/appropriate to drill a hole in
the
> bolt head and apply wire-locking as a precaution?
> Regards
> Roger Mills
Although not a bad idea, I can't see that it would stop the thread
stripping.
I don't know this engine, but I had a similar problem on a motor bike with 2
x M6 bolts into about 5mm of cast ali. Not a good design! I ended up
tapping the holes to a course 8mm, which felt stronger and I had a lot more
confidence in it.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Mills" <Roger.Mills(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
Mark,
You're right, I didn't read it properly - when he said it "worked loose" I
assumed the bolt unscrewed itself (although it probably did). It still may
be worth wire locking to get a slight improvement in reliability - but the
fundamental solution I guess is the correct torque and locking compound!
Under the circumstances, perhaps the LAST thing anyone should do is try to
check the tightness of their rocker cover bolts without knowledge of the
correct torque setting!
Regards
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH
> I can't remember without looking at the engine - but does anyone know
> whether it would be practical/permissible/appropriate to drill a hole in
the
> bolt head and apply wire-locking as a precaution?
> Regards
> Roger Mills
Although not a bad idea, I can't see that it would stop the thread
stripping.
I don't know this engine, but I had a similar problem on a motor bike with 2
x M6 bolts into about 5mm of cast ali. Not a good design! I ended up
tapping the holes to a course 8mm, which felt stronger and I had a lot more
confidence in it.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
> Mark,
> You're right, I didn't read it properly - when he said it "worked loose" I
> assumed the bolt unscrewed itself (although it probably did). It still may
> be worth wire locking to get a slight improvement in reliability - but the
> fundamental solution I guess is the correct torque and locking compound!
> Under the circumstances, perhaps the LAST thing anyone should do is try to
> check the tightness of their rocker cover bolts without knowledge of the
> correct torque setting!
> Regards
> Roger
I reckon it will be a very good idea to lock it some how. I've never been a
fan of locking compounds, sometime they can work too well and cause other
problems. The correct torque setting is very important, so long as there
are no defects in the threaded hole and it hasn't previously been
over-tourqued.
I'm still amazed to hear that only one bolt holds the cover on. Even if the
thread is fine, there's always the problem of it working loose.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nigel_graham" <nigel_graham(at)intercept.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bending aluminum choobs |
>you can find a 3/8inch rope pulley .......................
>Failing that, perhaps a cast-iron blank from one the
>model-engineering suppliers..............................
>..or bend it round the back of the cat's neck.....(now that IS a good
idea!)
Of course ...If all else fails you might consider buying the purpose built
tool from Aircraft Spruce P/N 367-FH. It's not too expensive, it's designed
for the job and it does it well.
Add a "Rolo-Flair" pipe flaring tool (AS P/N 212FB) and you have two
perfect suggestions for additions to the Europa Club tool box - the sort of
thing you only use infrequently, but can't do without.
And to start the ball rolling, if any Europa builder in the Hampshire (UK)
area is considering using "proper" alloy fuel pipe - you're welcome to use
my flaring and bending tools.
Happy bending
Nigel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
Hi! Roger.
I read the message as the single retaining stud for the rocker cover
stripped its thread out of the cylinder head. I guess the only way it would
get fixed would be a helicoil application should you have a similar
suspicion on any of yours.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH
I can't remember without looking at the engine - but does anyone know
whether it would be practical/permissible/appropriate to drill a hole in the
bolt head and apply wire-locking as a precaution?
Regards
Roger Mills
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Carson
Subject: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH
I recently received a communication from a Europa Club member,
indicating that he would not be renewing membership at the end of
March. He has given me permission to share his reasons with you, in
the hope that it might save someone else some grief. Here follows a
partial quote from his message about G-BWGH:
>Golf Hotel was the Europa that tried to land on Sark, and has now
>been written off by our insurers.
>The cause was a stripped thread on the single bolt holding on a
>rocker box cover. It took 60 hours + to work loose after replacement
>of the rocker shaft bushes, and then let go all the oil within 5
>minutes of take off from Jersey. No prior warning dribbles, just a
>catastrophic engine failure with 30 seconds notice of overheating.
>I have to question whether a single steel bolt into an alloy head
>securing a critical component is good aeronautic engineering
>practice, but at least none of our group was responsible for
>ignoring the torque settings.
>Incidentally do you think all Europa operators have laid out the 80
>on top of a 6000 engine to buy the workshop manual giving the
>torque settings? For anyone who has not - do so, it could save your
>aircraft.
>I was not the pilot, and nobody was even scratched, but I have taken
>umbrage at the sheer waste of time,effort and cash in turning GH
>into a really nice tourer, and I am retiring hurt from the air for
>the forseeable.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Landing Gear Mounting Frame |
Hi! Nick.
To use saddle washers will produce a spread load effect rather than the
excess weight of the inserts which you are recommending. Although I did
insert close fit steel rods with redux in to the top tubes where they
cantilever forward of the firewall to the engine mount. I felt that this
would reinforce the length of unsupported tube in the event of a heavy
landing.
It is also a good idea to plug the tubes anyway to stop ingress of fumes and
or any bad weather
into the tunnel or cockpit floor.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG 337 Europa MKI Trike /Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Landing Gear Mounting Frame
Brian,
Snap -- did this yesterday and had similar sort of problems.
The geometry makes it easy to make the holes too low. I drilled 5/8 with a
spade cutter and then widened them by hand with the sanding drum on a
Dremel, but found that most of the material had to be taken off the top of
the holes. The upper legs are a tight fit sideways and it was necessary to
grind most of the resin off the aluminium plates at either side of the top
of the tunnel. Once I got it started in the holes, it was a question of
marking with chalk to find the high spots (both in the top of the tunnel and
the fuselage floor) and then grinding these back with the Dremel.
A tip I adopted from John Baker was to redux pieces of solid aluminium rod
inside the legs to reinforce the holes and stop any tendency of the legs to
collapse when the bolts were tightened.
Best regards,
Nick
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Landing Gear Mounting Frame
I am trying to get my landing gear mounting frame into the front of the
firewall. Boy, it's a tight fit! How have people gone about this?
I tried hitting it with a mallet, but there was not much progress.
Also, how do you get it in: put the lower legs into their holes and
then pound the top in, or try to get it to go in simultaneously?
And finally: how did you drill the holes for the lower legs? I don't think
I have a very good position marked, so if I use a minimum sized hole of 3/4"
they will probably not be in the right place.
Brian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "STOUT, GARRY V, CFABS" <garrys(at)att.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
Would anyone care to share with us what the correct torque specification is
for this bolt?
Garry V. Stout
District Manager, AT&T Business Services
Phone: 813-878-3929 Fax 813-878-5651
*****Please note new e-mail address******
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH
> Mark,
> You're right, I didn't read it properly - when he said it "worked loose" I
> assumed the bolt unscrewed itself (although it probably did). It still may
> be worth wire locking to get a slight improvement in reliability - but the
> fundamental solution I guess is the correct torque and locking compound!
> Under the circumstances, perhaps the LAST thing anyone should do is try to
> check the tightness of their rocker cover bolts without knowledge of the
> correct torque setting!
> Regards
> Roger
I reckon it will be a very good idea to lock it some how. I've never been a
fan of locking compounds, sometime they can work too well and cause other
problems. The correct torque setting is very important, so long as there
are no defects in the threaded hole and it hasn't previously been
over-tourqued.
I'm still amazed to hear that only one bolt holds the cover on. Even if the
thread is fine, there's always the problem of it working loose.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
> Hi! Roger.
> I read the message as the single retaining stud for the rocker cover
> stripped its thread out of the cylinder head. I guess the only way it
would
> get fixed would be a helicoil application should you have a similar
> suspicion on any of yours.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
There is another method - get a welder to fill in the original hole, drill
and tap. I think I would trust that more than a helicoil, especially on
something that's proven to be a critical component.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | thing that I hope will be useful to the Europa community |
Hi All,
I have just set up a web page (or set of) for advertising Europa related
items. This is something I was working on as part of another project, but
thought it might be useful within this group as well.
You might ask what advantage it has over other sites displaying adverts...
- It's free
- It's for Europa *ONLY* adverts
- You enter the advert yourself
- You can include a picture of what you're selling
- You can advertise as many itens as you want
- There is also an option to post a wanted advert
Please have a look at http://harley.geog.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa/ads/
It's still in the process of being built, but it does work. I have plans
for added functions, which may or may not appear as I get time.
I hope you find it useful.
Cheers,
Mark.
p.s. IT IS ONLY FOR NON-COMMERCIAL ADVERTS AND THEY HAVE TO BE EUROPA ITEMS
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Wigney <johnwigney(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | ve cover screws) Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
"STOUT, GARRY V, CFABS" wrote:
> Would anyone care to share with us what the correct torque specification is
> for this bolt?
>
> Garry V. Stout
Hi Gary,
I looked it up in my Lockwood Aviation catalog. The valve cover screws show as
Part no. 840 880, Allen screw M6x30, 10 Newton Metres torque. (= 88.5 in. lbs.)
Interestingly, the catalog parts diagram for the cylinder head & intake manifold
does not show any Loctite applied to these valve cover screw threads. On this
same parts diagram, Rotax carefully specifies orange Loctite 574, green Loctite
680 and violet Loctite 222 at various other locations.
In a more recent catalog from Lockwood, the format of the parts list has been
changed and the torque values no longer show. Also the part number is now 840
887, Allen screw M6x30. Hmmmmm, strange.
Cheers, John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | ding aluminum choobs |
----- Original Message -----
From: "nigel_graham" <nigel_graham(at)intercept.com>
Subject: Re: Bending aluminum choobs>
Nigel:
> >you can find a 3/8inch rope pulley .......................>
> >Failing that, perhaps a cast-iron blank from one the> >model-engineering
suppliers..............................>
> >..or bend it round the back of the cat's neck.....(now that IS a good>
idea!)
In our town of 130,000 there isn't a cast-iron blank, except
perhaps at the regional tip (dump) - and one on Town Council.
> Of course ...If all else fails you might consider buying the purpose built
> tool from Aircraft Spruce P/N 367-FH. It's not too expensive, it's
designed
> for the job and it does it well.
In my case that's a fiveday exercise, to which one might easily
add $30 just to have the "import broker" OK something he's never seen, plus
tax, plus plus tax tax. Like most of my ilk, the nearest fellow builder is
100 miles west, the next five up a thousand miles away. So Nigel's offer is
most civilized, but not possible here. If I did nothing but excite team
spirit - something will have been achieved......
> Add a "Rolo-Flair" pipe flaring tool (AS P/N 212FB) and you have two
> perfect suggestions for additions to the Europa Club tool box - the sort
of
> thing you only use infrequently, but can't do without.
> And to start the ball rolling, if any Europa builder in the Hampshire (UK)
> area is considering using "proper" alloy fuel pipe - you're welcome to use
> my flaring and bending tools. > Happy bending > Nigel
I quite agree that the proper tool is vital to achieve
success/efficiency. But being pre-dead (retired) and whose billable hours
are just below zero, I went for effectiveness instead. The device was built
in less than four hours, and I've been bending choobing like blazes ever
since. The FLARING tool is another item. There is NO substitute I'd care to
have, so spent close to $200 plus tax, plus plus tax tax (OK it's just
Canadian) for the Proper T'ing. It comes out to C$10 per foot just to flare
the ends - but it's worth it. I will make the same offer as Nigel, but
suspect I'll have few takers. To mitigate somewhat, I've duplicated the
difficult runs for future repair/replace need.
Keep a stiff upper chin.
Ferg A064
________________________________________________________________________________
Below is the information I got from the Digifly people. Thought I would pass it
along.
To keep this in perspective, I would be shelling out $1700 X2 for TSO electric
gyros and $1200 for the anywhere map GPS system. Now is when I wish I had more
panel space. I'm not sure if they mean for you to select between the GPS display
and the primary flight display. I would obviously like to see both at the
same time.
Dave Anderson
A227
Hi Dave,
I tried to respond to your email earlier but had a problem with Netscape.
So here goes - again-
The FMS50 is a color display system that has the moving map functions
as part of it's core software, i.e. 'it don't come without it..." The
FMS50ATis the old stand by FMS50MM with new software (rev 4.10) that includes
the primary flight display (PFD) capability if used with the FMS-AT sensor.
System could not be easier to install, you will have to mate 4 connectors and
connect two wires each to B+ and Ground. Pitot and static are also required
for the sensor. The sensor is meant to be remote mounted away from ferrous
and magnetic influences, it does not need to be in the panel. I recommend
mounting this device in the empenage of your Europa. Total system weights
under four pounds and draws less than 2 Amps at 13.2VDC.
Bottom line... If you have an FMS50AT display, the GPS receiver and an
FMS-AT sensor, you will have a complete PFD and color moving map.
Functions included are:
* Moving Map with the typical course routing, way point, etc...
* Auto pilot support - typically used with the Navaid AP
* Airspeed
* VSI
* Barometric setting displays
* Airspeed
* G Meter
* Artificial Horizon
* Rate of turn
* Slip indicator
* Magnetic Heading
* Course Heading
* GPS/Moving Map driven CDI
The complete system cost as above is currently $4,645.00, this includes:
1) FMS50AT color display $2,375.00
includes all cables & 2 years data base (120 day updates)
2) Fms-AT flight data sensor $1,995.00
includes cable
3) GPS receiver (Garmin35) $275.00
includes cable
It is possible to have a dual display system with the addition of a second
FMS50AT. In this configuration the two displays would be independent
of each other allowing complete flexibility with the display formats.
Please visit our web site or call me with further inquiry.
Thank You,
Wayne Lanza
Composite Design, Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
Hi! Mark.
I would not be happy with a weld and changes to molecular structure round
the hole , much better to re-tap it oversize ,but then it depends on
available metal as indeed a helicoil would.
Cheers
Bob H.
-----Original Message-----
list'
Subject: Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH
> Hi! Roger.
> I read the message as the single retaining stud for the rocker cover
> stripped its thread out of the cylinder head. I guess the only way it
would
> get fixed would be a helicoil application should you have a similar
> suspicion on any of yours.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
There is another method - get a welder to fill in the original hole, drill
and tap. I think I would trust that more than a helicoil, especially on
something that's proven to be a critical component.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
> Hi! Mark.
> I would not be happy with a weld and changes to molecular structure round
> the hole , much better to re-tap it oversize ,but then it depends on
> available metal as indeed a helicoil would.
> Cheers
> Bob H.
Yeah, I think I'd rather see a tapped hole as well. As for the weld, I
guess it depends on the item that needs to be welded. I've had everything
from pistons to cylinder heads welded and never had any problems, but it
doesn't matter so much if the engine on a bike cuts out (I wouldn't fancy
being shot by the rear piston on my Harley going through it's cylinder head
though!).
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
The original message said the bolt was stripped, which is easy to do
w/o a torque wrench. But it's also noteworthy that it isn't necessary
to have a loose cover bolt, tossing oil, to cause big problems. The
maintenance manual states that an air leak past the O-rings can cause
oil to pool and foam in the crankcase, if the blow-by gasses cannot
send it to the external cooler and tank. There's even a little O-ring
to seal the attach bolt, which is easy to lose or damage. Thus the
importance of having a manual, but not just for torque values, as here
the torque is the same as any generic M6 bolt.
Rotax does not specify a Loctite for this bolt. It's easy to remove
oil from the bolt, but not the oily threads in the boss on the head.
I don't think there's any Loctite'd bolt inside the engine where oil
abounds, as Loctite could be effective except when assembled new.
Safety wire I'm sure would be, but ineffective if over-torqued to near
failure. It's also easy to periodically check the torque with a
simple metric Allen wrench. Had there been any failures not related
to improper maintenance, I think there would be an SB by now?
Regards,
Fred F.
Roger Mills wrote:
>
> Mark,
> You're right, I didn't read it properly - when he said it "worked loose" I
> assumed the bolt unscrewed itself (although it probably did). It still may
> be worth wire locking to get a slight improvement in reliability - but the
> fundamental solution I guess is the correct torque and locking compound!
> Under the circumstances, perhaps the LAST thing anyone should do is try to
> check the tightness of their rocker cover bolts without knowledge of the
> correct torque setting!
> Regards
> Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Wigney <johnwigney(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
<<<>>>
Mark,
I think that welding may be unwise. Helicoil inserts are well proven
technology and made with excellent material, they are very durable. The
finished internal threads in place are very good quality and stronger than the
original.
Drawbacks to welding include finding a welder competent to weld aluminium
alloy and also the heat affected zone from any welding will affect the
properties of the parent material. Sounds dodgy to me. Alternatively, one
could buy a new cylinder head. This is important stuff and a little investment
is better than one's neck.
Cheers, John
Mono XS, 912S, A099, N262WF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "andrew calvert" <ajpcalvert(at)madasafish.com> |
Hmmmmmmm!
Time to build the panel.
Decided on the 6 analogue instruments plus EIS:-
ASI,VSI, AH,DI Gyro, Turn and slip.
Any pitfalls, or words of wisdom for a first time buyer?
The DI and AH will most porbably be Vacuum driven due to
cost.
Does any one know the BS code for the wiring suitable for use in
aircraft?
Many thanks
Andy Calvert
Europa 232
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Holder <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk> |
I am about to do my panel.
I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to come only
in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
Thanks
Richard Holder
Kit 51 moving forward on its build after a 7 year wait (by someone else).
G-OWWW.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
Hi Richard
We put our instruments in a removable aluminium panel that sat on the
face of the original panel. We went to a local engineering shop with
the centre points of each hole marked on the ali and he programmed the
milling machine to cut the holes. It was perfect. If you can get the
panel surface level and the panel in the milling machine, you could do
the same.
On the other side of the panel we found with our G meter, that the
hole would be too small, so we centre popped the hole position and
drew around with a compass the correct size, drilled out as much as we
could with the hole saw and filed away the material with a half round
file, and finished off with a flapper wheel. It takes ages but the
results are good.
Quoting Richard Holder :
> I am about to do my panel.
>
> I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole
> 3.16
> inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
>
> Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
>
> Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to
come
> only
> in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
>
> Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Holder
> Kit 51 moving forward on its build after a 7 year wait (by someone
> else).
> G-OWWW.
>
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Near Disaster with Europa Trailer |
>I have just come close to having my day entirely ruined by a design
>fault in the open Europa trailer
David - I'm so thankful you spotted this in time. As the one who
asked you to bring the aircraft along on Tuesday night I had a very
bad moment when I saw your address & subject line flash up - but
probably not worse than your own reaction on seeing the hitch about
to depart the trailer!
There have been previous postings here about how failure to maintain
wheel bearings, etc, could ruin all your work in a trailer crash, but
this is a new one on me. I hope everyone takes notice of this - not
least Europa Management ...
Thanks again for your valuable contributions to the Gloster Strut
evening. I was tired but pleased afterwards.
regards
Rowland
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
Hi Richard,
I bought a ready punched main 6 sub-panel from
A/C Spruce. The outside dimensions were a
little large for the Europa panel, and were filed
to fit. They call it a 'panel overlay', the P/N
is 11-18566, and it is on page 325 of the 1999/2000
catalogue.
I fabricated the rest of the sub-panels from sheet
aluminum and bought a 2.25 inch punch for the 2.25"
instrument holes (A/C Spruce P/N 12-20975, page 452).
We had all of the sub-panels black anodize when
done, looks pretty good, IMHO.
regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
Richard Holder wrote:
> I am about to do my panel.
>
> I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
> inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
>
> Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
>
> Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to come only
> in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
>
> Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Holder
> Kit 51 moving forward on its build after a 7 year wait (by someone else).
> G-OWWW.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Near Disaster with Europa Trailer |
> >I have just come close to having my day entirely ruined by a design
> >fault in the open Europa trailer
>
> David - I'm so thankful you spotted this in time. As the one who
> asked you to bring the aircraft along on Tuesday night I had a very
> bad moment when I saw your address & subject line flash up - but
> probably not worse than your own reaction on seeing the hitch about
> to depart the trailer!
>
> There have been previous postings here about how failure to maintain
> wheel bearings, etc, could ruin all your work in a trailer crash, but
> this is a new one on me. I hope everyone takes notice of this - not
> least Europa Management ...
>
> Thanks again for your valuable contributions to the Gloster Strut
> evening. I was tired but pleased afterwards.
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
Hi Rowland,
Although this shouldn't be covered by the FAQ, maybe it could be included
one way or another? Maybe a recommended check list or something?
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
> <<< and tap. I think I would trust that more than a helicoil, especially on
> something that's proven to be a critical component.
> Cheers, Mark.>>>>
>
> Mark,
> I think that welding may be unwise. Helicoil inserts are well proven
> technology and made with excellent material, they are very durable. The
> finished internal threads in place are very good quality and stronger than
the
> original.
>
> Drawbacks to welding include finding a welder competent to weld aluminium
> alloy and also the heat affected zone from any welding will affect the
> properties of the parent material. Sounds dodgy to me. Alternatively, one
> could buy a new cylinder head. This is important stuff and a little
investment
> is better than one's neck.
I understand what you're saying and I know it does effect the properties of
the area that's being heated up. I've only ever had it done on motor bikes
which are a much higher stressed engine, but then the engine on a motor bike
isn't so important to one's safety.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
If you want them to look real nice, whether punching out glass or ali,
measure each instrument. I measured my instrument collection first,
and that 3-1/8" and such-such screw spacing standard should be
prefaced with "approximately." I just roughed them out and finished
to fit with a rather worn out by now Dremel.
Regards,
Fred F.
Richard Holder wrote:
>
> I am about to do my panel.
>
> I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
> inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
>
> Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
>
> Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to come only
> in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
>
> Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
>
>Thanks Tony, Is it advisable to install one or two on the TP cables?
>
>Install one into each of the cables... ie you need four or six
>turnbuckles all told. Six if you have Graham's tailwheel mod, four if
>you don't.
Tony,
Turnbuckles in the TW circuit are a luxury, but not vital. I did find it is
very difficult to adjust them through the tiny inspection hole when
everything is closed up. I now believe in getting iot right first time. I
would advise to go for 4mm of spring compression, then get used to the
handling. If a change seems desirable just fit new cables. Easy and cheap
and light.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Richard.
I simply scribed the necessary circles etc. then used a fret saw roughly
then dremmelled it closer and ultimately filed it. You don't get two chances
with the hole saws.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG 337 Europa MKI /Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Holes in panel
I am about to do my panel.
I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to come only
in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
Thanks
Richard Holder
Kit 51 moving forward on its build after a 7 year wait (by someone else).
G-OWWW.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
>Hi Richard,
>
>I bought a ready punched main 6 sub-panel from
>A/C Spruce.
Can't help feeling that the "main six" or "standard tee" as its refed to in
UK is more than somewhat out of date. I would much rather have an Attitude
indicator, a horizontal situation indicator below it and two tapes,
airspeed one side and altitude the other, maybe a third tape underneath for
magnetic heading.
I did fly with one in our Europa briefly but went and broke it and the
aeroplane too, to my ever lasting chagrin.
I'm not a particularly experienced pilot in terms of hours but some things
just feel instantly natural, the side sticks in my old Long EZ, having a
modern sailplane strapped to my shoulders and the panel on the Beech
Jet in my flight sim. {{;-})>
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hagar" <hagargs(at)earthlink.net> |
Richard:
Some people around these parts have made up the aluminum sub panel as
everyone does. They have had laid these out in AutoCAD and brought the
whole mess to be cut with a NC programmable water jet. This does a great
job if you find a place that does this.
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa, AZ
> [Original Message]
> From: Richard Holder <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk>
> Date: 1/10/02 11:53:28 AM
> Subject: Holes in panel
>
> I am about to do my panel.
>
> I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
> inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
>
> Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
>
> Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to come
only
> in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
>
> Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Holder
> Kit 51 moving forward on its build after a 7 year wait (by someone else).
> G-OWWW.
>
--- Steve Hagar
--- hagargs(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH |
The correct torque setting, according to the Rotax Overhaul Manual , is 10Nm (90
inch pounds).
No thread locking compound is used.
Best Regards
Andy Draper
Technical Director
e-mail andy@europa-aircraft.com
>>> "STOUT, GARRY V, CFABS" 10/01/02 13:42:19 >>>
Would anyone care to share with us what the correct torque specification is
for this bolt?
Garry V. Stout
District Manager, AT&T Business Services
Phone: 813-878-3929 Fax 813-878-5651
*****Please note new e-mail address******
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Rotax engine failure in G-BWGH
> Mark,
> You're right, I didn't read it properly - when he said it "worked loose" I
> assumed the bolt unscrewed itself (although it probably did). It still may
> be worth wire locking to get a slight improvement in reliability - but the
> fundamental solution I guess is the correct torque and locking compound!
> Under the circumstances, perhaps the LAST thing anyone should do is try to
> check the tightness of their rocker cover bolts without knowledge of the
> correct torque setting!
> Regards
> Roger
I reckon it will be a very good idea to lock it some how. I've never been a
fan of locking compounds, sometime they can work too well and cause other
problems. The correct torque setting is very important, so long as there
are no defects in the threaded hole and it hasn't previously been
over-tourqued.
I'm still amazed to hear that only one bolt holds the cover on. Even if the
thread is fine, there's always the problem of it working loose.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Housman" <robhousman(at)sbcglobal.net> |
This is definitely the best way to do it. Be sure to order extra clips
because once you install the clip if you need to remove it you will likely
damage it.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: turnbuckles
Use the MS series with the clips which will save you having to safety
wire them.
For each turnbuckle you need...
1 x MS21251-BS Barrel
1 x MS21255-3LS
1 x MS21255-3RS
2 x MS21256-1 clips
This gives you a turnbuckle with cable eyes.
A tip. When installing the ends, position the cable eyes so that the
groove to take the pin is pointing towards to the inspection hole. When
you ever come to adjust the turnbuckle you'll find it easier to reinsert
the pin if you can see the groove.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Housman" <robhousman(at)sbcglobal.net> |
It is probably not a good idea to attempt to mill the cutouts in the panel
itself because the panel can not be securely mounted to the table of the
mill without building an appropriate fixture. The panel will otherwise flex
considerably under load causing the tool to chatter in the cut leaving a not
very neat cut edge.
Aircraft Spruce offers a black anodized aluminum "Instrument Panel Access
Plate" P/N 11-18566 for US$49.95 (illustrated on page 336 of the 2000 ~ 2001
catalog) that will hold the basic six instruments. When the plate is
removed there is a large hole in the panel for access to its innards.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Holes in panel
Hi Richard
We put our instruments in a removable aluminium panel that sat on the
face of the original panel. We went to a local engineering shop with
the centre points of each hole marked on the ali and he programmed the
milling machine to cut the holes. It was perfect. If you can get the
panel surface level and the panel in the milling machine, you could do
the same.
On the other side of the panel we found with our G meter, that the
hole would be too small, so we centre popped the hole position and
drew around with a compass the correct size, drilled out as much as we
could with the hole saw and filed away the material with a half round
file, and finished off with a flapper wheel. It takes ages but the
results are good.
Quoting Richard Holder :
> I am about to do my panel.
>
> I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole
> 3.16
> inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
>
> Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
>
> Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to
come
> only
> in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
>
> Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Holder
> Kit 51 moving forward on its build after a 7 year wait (by someone
> else).
> G-OWWW.
>
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Timothy.P.Ward" <xtr120992(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: turnbuckles |
Graham,
You can always squeaseeeeeeeeeee down through the back bulkhead to adjust them
Graham!!!Done it once but have now decided to train my 5 year old son, Angus,
to do those jobs as it is increasely becoming a liability for a man of my age!!!
Tony K, can do it well!! See you soon.
Tim
>
> From: Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk>
> Date: 2002/01/11 Fri AM 11:27:58 GMT+12:00
> Subject: RE: turnbuckles
>
>
>
>
> >Thanks Tony, Is it advisable to install one or two on the TP cables?
> >
> >Install one into each of the cables... ie you need four or six
> >turnbuckles all told. Six if you have Graham's tailwheel mod, four if
> >you don't.
>
> Tony,
> Turnbuckles in the TW circuit are a luxury, but not vital. I did find it is
> very difficult to adjust them through the tiny inspection hole when
> everything is closed up. I now believe in getting iot right first time. I
> would advise to go for 4mm of spring compression, then get used to the
> handling. If a change seems desirable just fit new cables. Easy and cheap
> and light.
> Graham
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | PA MONO TRAILERS |
A Europa Monowheel trailer has experienced a failure at the hitch attachment due
to a manufacturing fault. The main spine of the trailer is made from a sqare
box section and on top of this a 'U' channel. The sides of the 'U' channel are
removed at the front end to facilitate attachment of the hitch but the base
of the channel should continue to the end of the box section.
If you find that the base of the 'U' channel terminates short of the hitch - DO
NOT USE YOUR TRAILER. The box section alone is not sufficiently strong enough
to take the loads. We are working on a fix for this fault and will provide parts
to correct it.
Please contact me if you find that your trailer is affected.
Kind regards
Andy Draper
Technical Director
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | plane Torque Tube Drive Pins. |
Hi! Guys.
I have already fitted one set of oversize pins to G-PTAG. Infact at the
time of final inspection
since I had power drilled the holes instead of hand reeming them. The
replacement pin on the Port side needed driving in with a hammer, yet I
still had a miniscule ammount of play on the Starboard side, so I carefully
applied locktite to that side.(It is would still be possible to dismantle
the assembly so long as only one side is permantly fixed)
Anyway here I am with the new flying season in sight and annual inspection
imminent and I find that both sides are now loose again!
I find it interesting why there isn't much "chat" from other long hours
Europa operators as to their similar problems?
Perhaps floating this question will promote some :-
a) Discussion
b) Reports of others experiences to date?
best regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
>Richard:
>
>Some people around these parts have made up the aluminum sub panel as
>everyone does. They have had laid these out in AutoCAD and brought the
>whole mess to be cut with a NC programmable water jet. This does a great
>job if you find a place that does this.
>
>Steve Hagar
>A143
>Mesa, AZ
I have had parts cut both water jet and laser cut. Water jet is best for
4130 steel because the cut edges become extremely hard, laser is the cleanest.
I laid out the drawing in Turbocad, saved as a dxf file then took a floppy
down to the laser cutters and got very good results.
Note, not all laser machines can work on reflective surfaces, only hte more
modern ones, (in UK anyway)
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nigel Charles <72016.3721(at)compuserve.com> |
Message text written by Richard Holder
>I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to come
only
in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?<
It may be more cost effective to have the holes cut professionally. I cut
out an aluminium sub pane, marked out the position of the instruments and
passed the panel on to Brian Nelson (freelance avionics engineer - ex RD
Aviation). He cut out all the holes (including the fixing holes). All was
perfectly done - total bill 20.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Simpson" <dave_simpson(at)londonweb.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
My preferred method for this kind of thing is to secure the panel to a
smooth flat board using double sided tape (not too much, and put most of it
under the "hole"). Use a tool with a radius arm at the end of which is a
small adjustable cutter (I think it's called a trepanning tool, they're not
dear). Put this in the pillar drill and set the speed to minimum. Take
care to control the cutting pressure when the cutter is near to reaching the
other side. I normally cut within 0.005" and then push it out and clean up
later.
If you use too much double sided tape, it's hard to remove the panel without
bending it. Hence the need to put the tape under the holes, then you don't
care.
Clamp the base board properly to the drill press table or you'll rip your
shirt if it grabs.
Dave Simpson
----- Original Message -----
From: <bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Holes in panel
> Hi Richard
>
> We put our instruments in a removable aluminium panel that sat on the
> face of the original panel. We went to a local engineering shop with
> the centre points of each hole marked on the ali and he programmed the
> milling machine to cut the holes. It was perfect. If you can get the
> panel surface level and the panel in the milling machine, you could do
> the same.
>
>
> On the other side of the panel we found with our G meter, that the
> hole would be too small, so we centre popped the hole position and
> drew around with a compass the correct size, drilled out as much as we
> could with the hole saw and filed away the material with a half round
> file, and finished off with a flapper wheel. It takes ages but the
> results are good.
>
>
> Quoting Richard Holder :
>
> > I am about to do my panel.
> >
> > I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole
> > 3.16
> > inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
> >
> > Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
> >
> > Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to
> come
> > only
> > in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
> >
> > Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Richard Holder
> > Kit 51 moving forward on its build after a 7 year wait (by someone
> > else).
> > G-OWWW.
> >
> >
> > The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
> info(at)avnet.co.uk
> >
>
>
> /////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
> ///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
> www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel/Antenna |
| From: | Richard Holder <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk> |
> Richard, get in touch with Rowland Carson, email address at:
> www.europaclub.org.uk
> The club have a hole cutter for members, will cost u return postage..
> chus,
> dave
> g-bxum
This url has a message saying that the address has been changed to : itself,
and when you click on it it goes nowhere.
Does anyone have an email address for Rowland Carson?
Has anyone installed the Type 7 Navigation antenna offered by Spruce for
composite aircraft.
The sizes I was given weren't consistent. Can anyone confirm that the
antenna is about 50 inches long if the two arms are opened up to be 180
degrees apart (ie in a straight line), with each arm about 25 inches, and
the hypoteneuse is about 40 inches if the arms are at right angles. Has
anyone had success (or failure) with this antenna ? Is the Type 5 XPDR
antenna any use ?
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DaveBuzz(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel/Antenna |
Richard,
The link does actually work fine
Contact Rowland at:
europa-club(at)rowil.clara.net
dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Beck <n9zes(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
Water jet or a laser cutter. I've had small quantities of aluminum panels
lasered for building vacuum tube audio projects and it's relatively cheap and
super accurate. The key is to provide a .dxf file so they can dump it right
into the laser layout program. I would absolutely never try to cut panel holes
by hand. It always happens to me that after 10 hours of drilling, you botch
the last hole and make scrap of the whole thing.
Chris
A159
Steve Hagar wrote:
> Richard:
>
> Some people around these parts have made up the aluminum sub panel as
> everyone does. They have had laid these out in AutoCAD and brought the
> whole mess to be cut with a NC programmable water jet. This does a great
> job if you find a place that does this.
>
> Steve Hagar
> A143
> Mesa, AZ
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Richard Holder <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk>
> > Date: 1/10/02 11:53:28 AM
> > Subject: Holes in panel
> >
> > I am about to do my panel.
> >
> > I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
> > inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
> >
> > Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
> >
> > Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to come
> only
> > in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
> >
> > Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Richard Holder
> > Kit 51 moving forward on its build after a 7 year wait (by someone else).
> > G-OWWW.
> >
>
> --- Steve Hagar
> --- hagargs(at)earthlink.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | shes in rear fuselage.... |
attn: I guess, Graham S:
This topic was fascinating and productive reading. But I ran into a mental
snag at one stage and beg clarification.
The idea is to avoid that difficult bit about flanging the pitch
stop mechanism to the fuselage top without crawling into a dungoen back
there. I followed the theme until the 'splash' is laid in the fuselage top
and the result affixed to the stop before top is glued on.
I found the top to be floppy and pliable UNTIL it is cleco-ed
onto the canoe. That is when (I have read) that all assumes untwisted,
levelled correctness.
How then do you cut the pitchstop structure to proper length
before the top goes on, and how do you ensure that the splash matches proper
top shape if the top is not attached?
In the "Upper Elevator Stop" photo, the stop seems to be very
accurately cut to length and shape of the top interior (accurate apparently
to the 1/16th inch). I apologize for seeming slow-witted by then it's hard
to hide the obvious.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Parkin" <Mikenjulie.Parkin(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
I used an 'ally' plate for the left hand side of the instrument panel.
Marked the holes very carefully and then used an adjustable 'tank cutter' on
slow in the pillar drill. Worked fine!
regards,
Mike Parkin No312
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Charles" <72016.3721(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Holes in panel
Message text written by Richard Holder
>I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
Everything in jolly old England is metric and hole cutters seem to come
only
in 79mm (too small) and 83mm (too large).
Can someone who has done this give me some guidance ?<
It may be more cost effective to have the holes cut professionally. I cut
out an aluminium sub pane, marked out the position of the instruments and
passed the panel on to Brian Nelson (freelance avionics engineer - ex RD
Aviation). He cut out all the holes (including the fixing holes). All was
perfectly done - total bill 20.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "martinstevens" <martinstevens(at)tinyworld.co.uk> |
| Subject: | ne - spinner vibration |
Hello there from Carmarthen
G-BXCH is a 'bog' standard 912 monowheel with 400 hrs under her belt
with no serious problems. Over the last couple of flying hours I have
noticed a 'slight' vibration in most power settings. I suspect the cause
to be the spinner.
During the first few hours after first flight I had a similar problem.
It seemed to be solved by balancing the spinner by floating it in a
barrel of water, 75% submerged by adding water inside the spinner and
then adding weights so that it floated evenly. (Crude but it seemed to
work) Being an early kit (186) I believe several people experienced the
same problem.
I also fitted the GS back plate. I should like to hear from anyone who
has experienced this problem and how they managed to solve it. Are there
any other spinners available from the factory that are stronger and more
"true" than the mk1.
Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated
regards
Martin (Build no 186)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tgynz" <tgynz(at)earthlink.net> |
Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at full
size.
Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
Better flutter resistance as well?
Nic
xs a145
:)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tgynz" <tgynz(at)earthlink.net> |
http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/
http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/new_6000.htm
Who is going to be the First to mount this puppy?
Nic
xs a145
:)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 8 cylinder |
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
An anorexic europa builder with a lot of spare cash and no friends to
take up I suspect! :-}
Ed
Quoting tgynz :
> http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/
> http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/new_6000.htm
>
>
> Who is going to be the First to mount this puppy?
>
> Nic
> xs a145
> :)
>
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Tailplane Torque Tube Drive Pins. |
The official Factory response seems to be to that poor build technique is
to blame.
I find this difficult to believe. Conversely, I can't get the fitting to
fail by means of calculation, even allowing a reasonable factor for
hammering of a slightly loose pin.
Personally I'm going for the "shit-or-bust" method; as soon as the Factory
can supply the Loctite.
Duncan McFadyean
On Friday, January 11, 2002 12:22 PM, Bob Harrison
[SMTP:ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk] wrote:
>
> Hi! Guys.
> I have already fitted one set of oversize pins to G-PTAG. Infact at the
> time of final inspection
> since I had power drilled the holes instead of hand reeming them. The
> replacement pin on the Port side needed driving in with a hammer, yet I
> still had a miniscule ammount of play on the Starboard side, so I
carefully
> applied locktite to that side.(It is would still be possible to dismantle
> the assembly so long as only one side is permantly fixed)
> Anyway here I am with the new flying season in sight and annual
inspection
> imminent and I find that both sides are now loose again!
> I find it interesting why there isn't much "chat" from other long hours
> Europa operators as to their similar problems?
> Perhaps floating this question will promote some :-
> a) Discussion
> b) Reports of others experiences to date?
>
> best regards
>
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nigel Charles <72016.3721(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | ne - spinner vibration |
Message text written by "martinstevens"
>G-BXCH is a 'bog' standard 912 monowheel with 400 hrs under her belt with
no serious problems. Over the last couple of flying hours I have noticed a
'slight' vibration in most power settings. I suspect the cause to be the
spinner.
During the first few hours after first flight I had a similar problem. It
seemed to be solved by balancing the spinner by floating it in a barrel of
water, 75% submerged by adding water inside the spinner and then adding
weights so that it floated evenly. (Crude but it seemed to work) Being an
early kit (186) I believe several people experienced the same problem.
I also fitted the GS back plate. I should like to hear from anyone who has
experienced this problem and how they managed to solve it. Are there any
other spinners available from the factory that are stronger and more "true"
than the mk1.
Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated <
With the Classic large spinner I thoroughly recommend Graham Singleton's
carbonfibre backplate. In your case I suspect that it is the frontplate
that is the problem. As I also have an NSI VP prop I was able to use John
Scott's frontplate which stabilises the front of the spinner as it is well
forward of the normal frontplate. This is a snug fit over the pitch motor
and is permanently glued (with Redux) to the spinner. With a fixed pitch
prop there may be a way of using this if a cylinder of the same diameter as
the prop motor is attached to the front of the prop. Be very sure though it
is securely fastened and is centrally mounted.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Splashes in rear fuselage.... |
I couldn't figure out why the containment structure has to be bolted
up there. The chances it will ever need removal are small. The
clearance won't be important if, after fuse top bonding, you take back
flox and two film-prepared bracket lay-ups back there and permanently
affix (remember safety glasses!). To ever remove the thing, take a
Dremel or hack saw blade back there and cut the brackets, so a little
gap there would even help. To reinstall, some epoxy adhesive or flox
and two more little lay-ups.
Regards,
Fred F.
Fergus Kyle wrote:
> ...How then do you cut the pitchstop structure to proper length
> before the top goes on, and how do you ensure that the splash matches proper
> top shape if the top is not attached?
> In the "Upper Elevator Stop" photo, the stop seems to be very
> accurately cut to length and shape of the top interior (accurate apparently
> to the 1/16th inch). I apologize for seeming slow-witted by then it's hard
> to hide the obvious.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
> Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at full
> size.
> Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in 7.5ft.
> Better flutter resistance as well?
>
> Nic
> xs a145
> :)
The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
experience tells me quit worrying.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 8 cylinder |
Will that allow enough on payload for the aux tank? 10/gallons per
hour they say. :-)
bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk wrote:
>
> An anorexic europa builder with a lot of spare cash and no friends to
> take up I suspect! :-}
>
> Ed
>
> > Who is going to be the First to mount this puppy?
> >
> > Nic
> > xs a145
> > :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com> |
There definitely are differences between marine hardware and AN/MS/NAS
aircraft hardware, but the most insidious thing is that you can't tell...
We like an outfit in Paso Robles (about three hours' drive south of San
Francisco on Hwy 101) called Genuine Aircraft Hardware. They are responsive,
charge reasonable prices, have a great inventory of diverse hardware items,
and will ship UPS ground which reaches anywhere in CA the next day.
They also have a wonderful free catalogue with lots of reference
information. You can reach them at their website,
http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/ or toll-free telephone in the U.S.,
888-247-2738.
Best Regards,
Larry Graves
AirCrafters Builder Education Center
140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk>
Subject: RE: turnbuckles
> Mmm, you're probably right there, I am not sure if there would be any
> difference, but it is a critical part!
>
> Good point!
>
> Ed
>
> Quoting "Tony S. Krzyzewski" :
>
> >
> > >> There there are several rigging suppliers in San Francisco and I
> > intend to go searching next week when I get a day off.
> >
> > This is an area that you definitely do not want to use anything
> other
> > than AN/MS aeronautical parts. Do not use nautical fittings for
> these
> > turnbuckles.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
> info(at)avnet.co.uk
> >
>
>
> /////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
> ///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
> www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LTS" <lts(at)avnet.co.uk> |
Trouble is if you live in the UK, 20 bucks worth of parts sent by UPS from
the states costs nearer 70 bucks by the time they get to the UK. You don't
know how lucky you are.
Jerry
LTS(at)avnet.co.uk
www.avnet.co.uk/touchdown
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Graves" <larry(at)aircraftersllc.com>
Subject: Re: turnbuckles
> There definitely are differences between marine hardware and AN/MS/NAS
> aircraft hardware, but the most insidious thing is that you can't tell...
>
> We like an outfit in Paso Robles (about three hours' drive south of San
> Francisco on Hwy 101) called Genuine Aircraft Hardware. They are
responsive,
> charge reasonable prices, have a great inventory of diverse hardware
items,
> and will ship UPS ground which reaches anywhere in CA the next day.
>
> They also have a wonderful free catalogue with lots of reference
> information. You can reach them at their website,
> http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/ or toll-free telephone in the U.S.,
> 888-247-2738.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Larry Graves
> AirCrafters Builder Education Center
> 140 Aviation Way, Watsonville, CA 95076
> Tel: 831-722-9141 Fax: 831-722-9142
> www.AirCraftersLLC.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk>
> Subject: RE: turnbuckles
>
>
> > Mmm, you're probably right there, I am not sure if there would be any
> > difference, but it is a critical part!
> >
> > Good point!
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > Quoting "Tony S. Krzyzewski" :
> >
> > >
> > > >> There there are several rigging suppliers in San Francisco and I
> > > intend to go searching next week when I get a day off.
> > >
> > > This is an area that you definitely do not want to use anything
> > other
> > > than AN/MS aeronautical parts. Do not use nautical fittings for
> > these
> > > turnbuckles.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
> > info(at)avnet.co.uk
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > /////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
> > ///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
> > www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Davis" <pm.davis(at)ntlworld.com> |
I too fitted enlarged pins last winter - accurately machined - but now find
play in the tailplanes.
Prior to this I bought some loctite but 'chickened out' of using it as it
seemed too final. However, I have been told by one builder that if you go
down this route and have to dismantle the setup, it can be done by use of a
200 watt (or thereabout) halogen bulb passed down inside the torque tube
which will soften the loctite enough to get the bits apart.
I haven't tried this but am assured it works. I have also been told by
Loctite that to get the stuff to work on stainless steel, an Activator
(loctite 7471) has to be used.
Regards
Peter Davis (#154)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at full
> size.
> Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
> Better flutter resistance as well?
>
> Nic
> xs a145
> :)
The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
experience tells me quit worrying.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ivor phillips" <ivor(at)ivorphillips.flyer.co.uk> |
| Subject: | plane torque tube reinforcing |
hi guys i`m at the point of drilling my tailplane torque tubes and was
thinking of bonding in a small section of aluminise bar inside the tube
directly inline with the pip pins,
would this be a practical idea to increase the surface area of the pins,
any
thought`s on the above would be appreciated
regards
ivor phillips
XS486 trike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> > Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> > I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at
full
> > size.
> > Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit
w/in
7.5ft.
> > Better flutter resistance as well?
> >
> > Nic
> > xs a145
> > :)
>
> The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
> to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
> tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
> Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
> but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
> with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
> experience tells me quit worrying.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | tailplane torque tube reinforcing |
Hi! Ivor. Happy New Year.
It isn't the pip pin holes that wear it's the drive plate (TP 9)drive pins
that wear into the tube. Your idea sounds good but the bar would need
pushing lots further down the tube, so you would need to well coat the full
length of the inside diameter and I would suggest a piece long enough to
encompass the TP 12 pins too.
I'm studying a clamp arrangement ( courtesy John Moran USA who has
successfully used Jubilee clips)I see a clamp with a hinge on the aft side
and captive nuts and bolts on the foreside to lock up the TP9, the tube and
the TP12 together ,should be able to apply it with one hand through the
inspection hole.(Requires two clamps one each side)
Pleased to hear you are progressing.
Have you applied yourself to my question "which fly-outs you would like to
go to ?"
Zoe was stuck for an exhaust problem recently ... after she brought it to me
to remove a silly heat sheild... I gave her your number !
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
hi guys i`m at the point of drilling my tailplane torque tubes and was
thinking of bonding in a small section of aluminise bar inside the tube
directly inline with the pip pins,
would this be a practical idea to increase the surface area of the pins, any
thought`s on the above would be appreciated
regards
ivor phillips
XS486 trike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> > Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> > I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at
full
> > size.
> > Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
> > Better flutter resistance as well?
> >
> > Nic
> > xs a145
> > :)
>
> The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
> to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
> tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
> Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
> but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
> with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
> experience tells me quit worrying.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Peter.
Thanks for the reply. Good to know, I'm sorely tempted ! However just out of
interest I know that the torque tube is NICKLE plated so I guess it isn't
stainless otherwise it wouldn't plate.
Not that the plate stays on long! Don't know about the TP12 and TP9 Parts
though.
That's only about 5 replies I've had plus one I know locally, so 1) either a
lot of people are not aware or 2) a lot of people are more accurate than you
or I , an item which I suspect the factory subscribe to! I was pleased to
see that you said yours was accurately machined, I know mine was the second
time and I know my local freinds was but all are still wearing.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
I too fitted enlarged pins last winter - accurately machined - but now find
play in the tailplanes.
Prior to this I bought some loctite but 'chickened out' of using it as it
seemed too final. However, I have been told by one builder that if you go
down this route and have to dismantle the setup, it can be done by use of a
200 watt (or thereabout) halogen bulb passed down inside the torque tube
which will soften the loctite enough to get the bits apart.
I haven't tried this but am assured it works. I have also been told by
Loctite that to get the stuff to work on stainless steel, an Activator
(loctite 7471) has to be used.
Regards
Peter Davis (#154)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at full
> size.
> Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
> Better flutter resistance as well?
>
> Nic
> xs a145
> :)
The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
experience tells me quit worrying.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | tailplane torque tube reinforcing |
Hi! Ivor/Everyone.
Unfortunately I've mixed up the TP9 and TP12 locations in the previous
message.
Please delete it and replace with the following which has been corrected.]
Sorry.
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
Hi! Ivor. Happy New Year.
It isn't the pip pin holes that wear it's the drive plate (TP 12)drive pins
that wear into the tube of the TP12)according to Andy Draper. Your idea
sounds good but the bar would need pushing lots further down the tube, so
you would need to well coat the full length of the inside diameter and I
would suggest a piece long enough to encompass the TP9 pins too.THEN it
would ONLY protect the torque tube wearing, since it is not stainless it is
apparently more resistant to wear than the TP12 and TP9 stainless material.
I'm studying a clamp arrangement ( courtesy John Moran USA who has
successfully used Jubilee clips)I see a clamp with a hinge on the aft side
and captive nuts and bolts on the foreside to lock up the TP9, the tube and
the TP12 together ,should be able to apply it with one hand through the
inspection hole.(Requires two clamps one pair port and one pair starboard)
Pleased to hear you are progressing.
Have you applied yourself to my question "which fly-outs you would like to
go to ?"
Zoe was stuck for an exhaust problem recently ... after she brought it to me
to remove a silly heat sheild... I gave her your number !
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
hi guys i`m at the point of drilling my tailplane torque tubes and was
thinking of bonding in a small section of aluminise bar inside the tube
directly inline with the pip pins,
would this be a practical idea to increase the surface area of the pins, any
thought`s on the above would be appreciated
regards
ivor phillips
XS486 trike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> > Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> > I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at
full
> > size.
> > Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
> > Better flutter resistance as well?
> >
> > Nic
> > xs a145
> > :)
>
> The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
> to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
> tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
> Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
> but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
> with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
> experience tells me quit worrying.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Davis" <pm.davis(at)ntlworld.com> |
Bob,
As you say, and as I understand, the torque tube is nickle plated. I believe
that the TP12 is stainless. However, I seem to remember that Loctite still
reconed on the activator being a 'good idea' for the nickle plated side of
the join too.
Regards,
Peter D (#154)
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Peter.
Thanks for the reply. Good to know, I'm sorely tempted ! However just out of
interest I know that the torque tube is NICKLE plated so I guess it isn't
stainless otherwise it wouldn't plate.
Not that the plate stays on long! Don't know about the TP12 and TP9 Parts
though.
That's only about 5 replies I've had plus one I know locally, so 1) either a
lot of people are not aware or 2) a lot of people are more accurate than you
or I , an item which I suspect the factory subscribe to! I was pleased to
see that you said yours was accurately machined, I know mine was the second
time and I know my local freinds was but all are still wearing.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
Fred Fillinger
I seem to remember that the builder who tested this used a 50w 12v QI bulb
set between two discs of surplus firewall composite material. The whole was
then pushed on a rod down the inside of the TP tube and turned on.
However, I don't remember it being tried in situ. If done in situ, then one
would expect to at least lose the polythene collars at the inside ends of
the TP tube plus, possibly, debonding/movement of the TP bronze
bushings/surrounding composite.
I can't see any proven long term alternative to the Loctite route and that
wouldn't involve potentially protracted PFA approval. Even then, the
Loctite bond might be subject to progressive failure.
Duncan McFadyean
On Monday, January 14, 2002 9:03 AM, Peter Davis
[SMTP:pm.davis(at)ntlworld.com] wrote:
>
> I too fitted enlarged pins last winter - accurately machined - but now
find
> play in the tailplanes.
>
> Prior to this I bought some loctite but 'chickened out' of using it as it
> seemed too final. However, I have been told by one builder that if you go
> down this route and have to dismantle the setup, it can be done by use of
a
> 200 watt (or thereabout) halogen bulb passed down inside the torque tube
> which will soften the loctite enough to get the bits apart.
>
> I haven't tried this but am assured it works. I have also been told by
> Loctite that to get the stuff to work on stainless steel, an Activator
> (loctite 7471) has to be used.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter Davis (#154)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: Re: Tailplanes
>
>
> > Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> > I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at
full
> > size.
> > Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
> 7.5ft.
> > Better flutter resistance as well?
> >
> > Nic
> > xs a145
> > :)
>
> The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
> to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
> tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
> Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
> but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
> with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
> experience tells me quit worrying.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Peter.
Yes, you are right the TP12's and the TP9 are all stainless. However we are
going ahead with our clamp idea( with respects to John Moran's Intellectual
Property if he insists?) which I'll publish when approved, but I can't see
any structural objection is possible since we are only beefing up rather
than changing existing design. Watch this space.....
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Bob,
As you say, and as I understand, the torque tube is nickle plated. I believe
that the TP12 is stainless. However, I seem to remember that Loctite still
reconed on the activator being a 'good idea' for the nickle plated side of
the join too.
Regards,
Peter D (#154)
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Peter.
Thanks for the reply. Good to know, I'm sorely tempted ! However just out of
interest I know that the torque tube is NICKLE plated so I guess it isn't
stainless otherwise it wouldn't plate.
Not that the plate stays on long! Don't know about the TP12 and TP9 Parts
though.
That's only about 5 replies I've had plus one I know locally, so 1) either a
lot of people are not aware or 2) a lot of people are more accurate than you
or I , an item which I suspect the factory subscribe to! I was pleased to
see that you said yours was accurately machined, I know mine was the second
time and I know my local freinds was but all are still wearing.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J R \(Bob\) Gowing" <gowingjr(at)acr.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Splashes in rear fuselage.... |
Fergus, Duncan and all,
Although I am a long way from finished UK kit 327, I have followed this
story with interest and believe that the parts made at the factory have not
been precisely drilled across the centre line of the tube. This means that
if you do not keep all the various component parts in exactly the same
locations and orientation, then you must elongate holes circumferntially to
some extent. So it then depends on luck in reassembly whether they are
elonged around the circumference a little of a lot.
Thus I can imagine that although Bob redrilled larger holes, he could have
still missed cutting out to some of the edges; but I would have expected
that the amount of play should have been reduced. And so he has advised - at
first!
Why play should then increase again I cannot imagine. Unless the tailplanes
are hammering away against the pins when it would no doubt be obvious
through the control stick!
JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Splashes in rear fuselage....
> attn: I guess, Graham S:
>
> This topic was fascinating and productive reading. But I ran into a mental
> snag at one stage and beg clarification.
> The idea is to avoid that difficult bit about flanging the
pitch
> stop mechanism to the fuselage top without crawling into a dungoen back
> there. I followed the theme until the 'splash' is laid in the fuselage top
> and the result affixed to the stop before top is glued on.
> I found the top to be floppy and pliable UNTIL it is cleco-ed
> onto the canoe. That is when (I have read) that all assumes untwisted,
> levelled correctness.
> How then do you cut the pitchstop structure to proper length
> before the top goes on, and how do you ensure that the splash matches
proper
> top shape if the top is not attached?
> In the "Upper Elevator Stop" photo, the stop seems to be very
> accurately cut to length and shape of the top interior (accurate
apparently
> to the 1/16th inch). I apologize for seeming slow-witted by then it's hard
> to hide the obvious.
> Ferg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Parkin" <Mikenjulie.Parkin(at)btopenworld.com> |
Perhaps another way would be to abandon the pins or back them up with some
'substantial' rivets, avdel or the like. Four evenly spaced around the
sleeves might prevent further movement.
Mike Parkin
----- Original Message -----
From: "McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Fillinger"
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
> I seem to remember that the builder who tested this used a 50w 12v QI bulb
> set between two discs of surplus firewall composite material. The whole
was
> then pushed on a rod down the inside of the TP tube and turned on.
> However, I don't remember it being tried in situ. If done in situ, then
one
> would expect to at least lose the polythene collars at the inside ends of
> the TP tube plus, possibly, debonding/movement of the TP bronze
> bushings/surrounding composite.
>
> I can't see any proven long term alternative to the Loctite route and that
> wouldn't involve potentially protracted PFA approval. Even then, the
> Loctite bond might be subject to progressive failure.
>
> Duncan McFadyean
>
> On Monday, January 14, 2002 9:03 AM, Peter Davis
> [SMTP:pm.davis(at)ntlworld.com] wrote:
> >
> > I too fitted enlarged pins last winter - accurately machined - but now
> find
> > play in the tailplanes.
> >
> > Prior to this I bought some loctite but 'chickened out' of using it as
it
> > seemed too final. However, I have been told by one builder that if you
go
> > down this route and have to dismantle the setup, it can be done by use
of
> a
> > 200 watt (or thereabout) halogen bulb passed down inside the torque tube
> > which will soften the loctite enough to get the bits apart.
> >
> > I haven't tried this but am assured it works. I have also been told by
> > Loctite that to get the stuff to work on stainless steel, an Activator
> > (loctite 7471) has to be used.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Peter Davis (#154)
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> > Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> >
> >
> > > Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> > > I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at
> full
> > > size.
> > > Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
> > 7.5ft.
> > > Better flutter resistance as well?
> > >
> > > Nic
> > > xs a145
> > > :)
> >
> > The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
> > to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
> > tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
> > Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
> > but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
> > with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
> > experience tells me quit worrying.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Fred F.
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
The torque tube is 4130 with nickel plating (per Bob Berube). For the
record: any stainless alloy can be nickel plated but it must be "activated"
first so the plating will stick.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Peter.
Thanks for the reply. Good to know, I'm sorely tempted ! However just out of
interest I know that the torque tube is NICKLE plated so I guess it isn't
stainless otherwise it wouldn't plate.
Not that the plate stays on long! Don't know about the TP12 and TP9 Parts
though.
That's only about 5 replies I've had plus one I know locally, so 1) either a
lot of people are not aware or 2) a lot of people are more accurate than you
or I , an item which I suspect the factory subscribe to! I was pleased to
see that you said yours was accurately machined, I know mine was the second
time and I know my local freinds was but all are still wearing.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
I too fitted enlarged pins last winter - accurately machined - but now find
play in the tailplanes.
Prior to this I bought some loctite but 'chickened out' of using it as it
seemed too final. However, I have been told by one builder that if you go
down this route and have to dismantle the setup, it can be done by use of a
200 watt (or thereabout) halogen bulb passed down inside the torque tube
which will soften the loctite enough to get the bits apart.
I haven't tried this but am assured it works. I have also been told by
Loctite that to get the stuff to work on stainless steel, an Activator
(loctite 7471) has to be used.
Regards
Peter Davis (#154)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at full
> size.
> Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
> Better flutter resistance as well?
>
> Nic
> xs a145
> :)
The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
experience tells me quit worrying.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Rob.
Thanks for that.
What do you mean by "activated" perhaps acid dipped or..... ?
Just interested.
Regards
Bob H.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
The torque tube is 4130 with nickel plating (per Bob Berube). For the
record: any stainless alloy can be nickel plated but it must be "activated"
first so the plating will stick.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Peter.
Thanks for the reply. Good to know, I'm sorely tempted ! However just out of
interest I know that the torque tube is NICKLE plated so I guess it isn't
stainless otherwise it wouldn't plate.
Not that the plate stays on long! Don't know about the TP12 and TP9 Parts
though.
That's only about 5 replies I've had plus one I know locally, so 1) either a
lot of people are not aware or 2) a lot of people are more accurate than you
or I , an item which I suspect the factory subscribe to! I was pleased to
see that you said yours was accurately machined, I know mine was the second
time and I know my local freinds was but all are still wearing.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
I too fitted enlarged pins last winter - accurately machined - but now find
play in the tailplanes.
Prior to this I bought some loctite but 'chickened out' of using it as it
seemed too final. However, I have been told by one builder that if you go
down this route and have to dismantle the setup, it can be done by use of a
200 watt (or thereabout) halogen bulb passed down inside the torque tube
which will soften the loctite enough to get the bits apart.
I haven't tried this but am assured it works. I have also been told by
Loctite that to get the stuff to work on stainless steel, an Activator
(loctite 7471) has to be used.
Regards
Peter Davis (#154)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at full
> size.
> Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
> Better flutter resistance as well?
>
> Nic
> xs a145
> :)
The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
experience tells me quit worrying.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Davis" <pm.davis(at)ntlworld.com> |
Bob,
Very interested in the clamp system as it sounds less 'final' even with the
possibility of heat release (note Duncan McFadyean's reservations/
observations). Do keep me posted as at present the 'plane is in the garage
ready for work on it and I hope to get it back on Kidlington airfield by
Easter.
Regards
Peter D
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Peter.
Yes, you are right the TP12's and the TP9 are all stainless. However we are
going ahead with our clamp idea( with respects to John Moran's Intellectual
Property if he insists?) which I'll publish when approved, but I can't see
any structural objection is possible since we are only beefing up rather
than changing existing design. Watch this space.....
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Davis" <pm.davis(at)ntlworld.com> |
Bob,
I imagine that 'Activated' means activated with Loctite's own Activator 7471
which I was given (sold) for their Loctite 638 retaining compound for nickle
plate to stainless steel.
Regards,
Peter D (#154)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Rob.
Thanks for that.
What do you mean by "activated" perhaps acid dipped or..... ?
Just interested.
Regards
Bob H.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
The torque tube is 4130 with nickel plating (per Bob Berube). For the
record: any stainless alloy can be nickel plated but it must be "activated"
first so the plating will stick.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Peter.
Thanks for the reply. Good to know, I'm sorely tempted ! However just out of
interest I know that the torque tube is NICKLE plated so I guess it isn't
stainless otherwise it wouldn't plate.
Not that the plate stays on long! Don't know about the TP12 and TP9 Parts
though.
That's only about 5 replies I've had plus one I know locally, so 1) either a
lot of people are not aware or 2) a lot of people are more accurate than you
or I , an item which I suspect the factory subscribe to! I was pleased to
see that you said yours was accurately machined, I know mine was the second
time and I know my local freinds was but all are still wearing.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
I too fitted enlarged pins last winter - accurately machined - but now find
play in the tailplanes.
Prior to this I bought some loctite but 'chickened out' of using it as it
seemed too final. However, I have been told by one builder that if you go
down this route and have to dismantle the setup, it can be done by use of a
200 watt (or thereabout) halogen bulb passed down inside the torque tube
which will soften the loctite enough to get the bits apart.
I haven't tried this but am assured it works. I have also been told by
Loctite that to get the stuff to work on stainless steel, an Activator
(loctite 7471) has to be used.
Regards
Peter Davis (#154)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at full
> size.
> Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
> Better flutter resistance as well?
>
> Nic
> xs a145
> :)
The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
experience tells me quit worrying.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
> However just out of
>interest I know that the torque tube is NICKLE plated so I guess it isn't
>stainless otherwise it wouldn't plate.
>Not that the plate stays on long! Don't know about the TP12 and TP9 Parts
>though.
AFAIK the torque tube is 4130, stainless isn't strong enough. The bushes
are stainless though.
graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Splashes in rear fuselage.... |
| From: | Erich D Trombley <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com> |
Ferg wrote
> How then do you cut the pitch stop structure to proper
> length
> before the top goes on, and how do you ensure that the splash
> matches proper
> top shape if the top is not attached?
After you lay up the splash molding do not remove it from the top
fuselage until you drill two alignment holes for future alignment of the
splash molding and cleco in place from the outside of the fuselage.
With the containment bulkhead mounted to the lower fuselage and cut to
the approximate length (error or short side or the top won't go on all
the way) put the top back on and reach in through the access hole for the
tailplanes and bond in small blocks of foam between the splash moulding
and the containment bulkhead using 5-min epoxy. Once the glue goes off
remove the clecos and then the top of the fuselage. The splash moulding
with stay attached to the containment bulkhead and thus allow for easy
application of the fiberglass lay ups. You can then complete the pitch
tube upper stop as directed in the manual. Hope this helps.
Erich Trombley
A028
Las Vegas, NV
> In the "Upper Elevator Stop" photo, the stop seems to be
> very
> accurately cut to length and shape of the top interior (accurate
> apparently
> to the 1/16th inch). I apologize for seeming slow-witted by then
> it's hard
> to hide the obvious.
> Ferg
>
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
> info(at)avnet.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing |
>hi guys i`m at the point of drilling my tailplane torque tubes and was
>thinking of bonding in a small section of aluminise bar inside the tube
>directly inline with the pip pins,
>would this be a practical idea to increase the surface area of the pins, any
>thought`s on the above would be appreciated
>ivor phillips
>XS486 trike
No. These pins are supposed to allow a little fore and aft play, (but not
spanwise) so that torque cannot be transmitted by the pip pins. This would
put too much load on the bonded in TP12s
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
>Bob,
>
>Very interested in the clamp system as it sounds less 'final' even with the
>possibility of heat release (note Duncan McFadyean's reservations/
>observations). Do keep me posted as at present the 'plane is in the garage
>ready for work on it and I hope to get it back on Kidlington airfield by
>Easter.
>Peter D
There is another way, but not easy. I made a set of expanding pins once,
using the soft 1/4" stainless tube. Bored tapered holes in the ends, made
tapered sleeves to fit inside and squashed the whole lot up with long AN 3
bolts. It worked beautifully but they were very tricky to insert. I didn't
fancy trying to retro fit by crawling down the back.
I will never agree with a certain friend of mine for insisting that
inspection holes at the back were not essential.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clevelee(at)cswebmail.com |
| Subject: | Re: Splashes in rear fuselage.... |
I just completed this activity and have both splashes now securely laminated to
to the top of their respective aft and pushrod bulkheads.
I put the fuselage top in place and taped a marker at an angle to the end of a
stick and marked the inside top of the fuselage where the pushrod containment
bulhead meets the roof of the fuselage.
Removing the top, I then used plastic packing tape and protected the inside of
the fuselage, and laid up the splash with three ply bid and peel ply. I marked
top of the splash with the line that showed through from the inside of the fuselage
to assist with later location. (the profile is pretty specific so really
not a problem.)
I then removed the packing tape. I used small pieces of packing tape to hold the
splash back in place. With my wife standing right there ready for the bonding,
I mixed up some 5 minute epoxy with flox (to fill the gap between the top
of the fuselage and the top of the bulkhead, and I did yet another 'lift and
flip' and put the top back on. Make sure you have trimmed the firewall and have
the front flange of the top positioned properly against the firewall. The
trick is to not use so much tape to hold in the splash that you can't pull it
off when you gently lift the tail end to separate the bonded splash from the top
of the fuselage. Using 3 layers of bid would be the minimum for the splash
IMHO. To thin and it wants to peel the bond loose and is floppy. No need for
clecos.
Layup into the the undeside of the bonded splash after the top is removed required
putting packing tape against the sides of the bulkhead right up to the splash,
but not on to it. The peel ply side is facing the right direction for laying
up the brackets onto the tape and splash. Then drill the bolt holes first
before removing the splash!!! Otherwise you'll lose your position! knock the
splash loose and trim up the brackets and re-install.
The pitch stop is set right against the now firmly anchored splash sitting on top
of the bulkhead and if using the 12 mm ply can be bonded directly to the splash
using a weight on the stabalizer so that the counter weight holds the stop
in place.
Cleve Lee
A198 Mono XS
On Sat, 12 January 2002, "Fergus Kyle" wrote:
>
> attn: I guess, Graham S:
>
> This topic was fascinating and productive reading. But I ran into a mental
> snag at one stage and beg clarification.
> The idea is to avoid that difficult bit about flanging the pitch
> stop mechanism to the fuselage top without crawling into a dungoen back
> there. I followed the theme until the 'splash' is laid in the fuselage top
> and the result affixed to the stop before top is glued on.
> I found the top to be floppy and pliable UNTIL it is cleco-ed
> onto the canoe. That is when (I have read) that all assumes untwisted,
> levelled correctness.
> How then do you cut the pitchstop structure to proper length
> before the top goes on, and how do you ensure that the splash matches proper
> top shape if the top is not attached?
> In the "Upper Elevator Stop" photo, the stop seems to be very
> accurately cut to length and shape of the top interior (accurate apparently
> to the 1/16th inch). I apologize for seeming slow-witted by then it's hard
> to hide the obvious.
> Ferg
>
>
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clevelee(at)cswebmail.com |
europa(at)avnet.co.uk
| Subject: | Re: RE: turnbuckles |
Is there a reason we have to put the turnbuckles or any rudder pedal adjustment
at the very aft of the plane ? Can we put the turnbuckles inside the tunnel
or near the fuel inspection ports? Or put opposing ports in the tunnel in the
baggage area? Haven't installed the gear completely yet so excuse my naivety.
Cleve Lee
A198 Mono XS
On Thu, 10 January 2002, "Timothy.P.Ward" wrote:
>
> Graham,
> You can always squeaseeeeeeeeeee down through the back bulkhead to adjust them
Graham!!!Done it once but have now decided to train my 5 year old son, Angus,
to do those jobs as it is increasely becoming a liability for a man of my age!!!
Tony K, can do it well!! See you soon.
> Tim
> >
> > From: Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk>
> > Date: 2002/01/11 Fri AM 11:27:58 GMT+12:00
> > Subject: RE: turnbuckles
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Thanks Tony, Is it advisable to install one or two on the TP cables?
> > >
> > >Install one into each of the cables... ie you need four or six
> > >turnbuckles all told. Six if you have Graham's tailwheel mod, four if
> > >you don't.
> >
> > Tony,
> > Turnbuckles in the TW circuit are a luxury, but not vital. I did find it is
> > very difficult to adjust them through the tiny inspection hole when
> > everything is closed up. I now believe in getting iot right first time. I
> > would advise to go for 4mm of spring compression, then get used to the
> > handling. If a change seems desirable just fit new cables. Easy and cheap
> > and light.
> > Graham
> >
> >
>
>
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nick Hammond <nick.hammond(at)saabsystems.com.au> |
All,
The clamp and Loktite solutions address the problem by by increasing the
friction between the torque tube and tailplane drive bushes, thus reducing
the load imposed by the clevis pins on the edges of these parts to the point
where wear and distortion do not occur. The Loktite answer has the
disadvantage that the friction becomes semi-permanent and could make
disassembly difficult.
Another idea, which may be simpler and less of a design variation, than a
clamp is to substitute bolts and saddle washers for the clevis pins. When
tightened, these would provide both friction and direct loading. The holes
would probably need to be drilled oversize and reamed to be an interference
fit for a 5/16 bolt. Suitable aluminium plugs would be also required inside
the torque tube in way of the bolts (to prevent "ovalling" when the bolts
are tightened) but would not need not be permanently bonded.
The clevis pins in my assembly are only a very slight interference fit and,
given the discussion to date, I would rather fix the problem while I still
have the top off. Grateful for any comment or criticism of the idea outlined
above.
Best regards,
Nick Hammond
XS Monowheel 418
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Bob,
Very interested in the clamp system as it sounds less 'final' even with the
possibility of heat release (note Duncan McFadyean's reservations/
observations). Do keep me posted as at present the 'plane is in the garage
ready for work on it and I hope to get it back on Kidlington airfield by
Easter.
Regards
Peter D
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Peter.
Yes, you are right the TP12's and the TP9 are all stainless. However we are
going ahead with our clamp idea( with respects to John Moran's Intellectual
Property if he insists?) which I'll publish when approved, but I can't see
any structural objection is possible since we are only beefing up rather
than changing existing design. Watch this space.....
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing |
O.K., now I'm REALLY confused.
1. Bob, just HOW are your tailplanes loose? fore/aft? side/side?
rotationally?
2. Graham, it seems to me that the TP14 pins in both TP9 and TP12 serve to
transfer the
torques from the pitch pushrod to the tailplanes, so they both have to
be precisely
fit. And therefore additional bearing surface would help. Unless
there's a bit of slop
between TP12's I.D. and the tailplane torque tube's O.D.
Am I missing something?
Shaun
A207
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
> >hi guys i`m at the point of drilling my tailplane torque tubes and was
> >thinking of bonding in a small section of aluminise bar inside the tube
> >directly inline with the pip pins,
> >would this be a practical idea to increase the surface area of the pins,
any
> >thought`s on the above would be appreciated
> >ivor phillips
> >XS486 trike
>
> No. These pins are supposed to allow a little fore and aft play, (but not
> spanwise) so that torque cannot be transmitted by the pip pins. This would
> put too much load on the bonded in TP12s
>
> Graham
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | tailplane torque tube reinforcing |
Hi! Graham.
In your text below I think you mean TP6's bonded in ? The TP12's are the
drive plates / bushes.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
>hi guys i`m at the point of drilling my tailplane torque tubes and was
>thinking of bonding in a small section of aluminise bar inside the tube
>directly inline with the pip pins,
>would this be a practical idea to increase the surface area of the pins,
any
>thought`s on the above would be appreciated
>ivor phillips
>XS486 trike
No. These pins are supposed to allow a little fore and aft play, (but not
spanwise) so that torque cannot be transmitted by the pip pins. This would
put too much load on the bonded in TP12s
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Cleve.
Strongly recommend adusting facility otherwise it will all trail on the
floor of the fuselage.Also sufficiently aft to be behind the luggage bay for
access through the "D" Panel.
It's awkward enough to do the mass balance turnbuckles through the 5"
inspection hole without another set also.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
clevelee(at)cswebmail.com
europa(at)avnet.co.uk
Subject: Re: RE: turnbuckles
Is there a reason we have to put the turnbuckles or any rudder pedal
adjustment at the very aft of the plane ? Can we put the turnbuckles inside
the tunnel or near the fuel inspection ports? Or put opposing ports in the
tunnel in the baggage area? Haven't installed the gear completely yet so
excuse my naivety.
Cleve Lee
A198 Mono XS
On Thu, 10 January 2002, "Timothy.P.Ward" wrote:
>
> Graham,
> You can always squeaseeeeeeeeeee down through the back bulkhead to adjust
them Graham!!!Done it once but have now decided to train my 5 year old son,
Angus, to do those jobs as it is increasely becoming a liability for a man
of my age!!! Tony K, can do it well!! See you soon.
> Tim
> >
> > From: Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk>
> > Date: 2002/01/11 Fri AM 11:27:58 GMT+12:00
> > Subject: RE: turnbuckles
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >Thanks Tony, Is it advisable to install one or two on the TP cables?
> > >
> > >Install one into each of the cables... ie you need four or six
> > >turnbuckles all told. Six if you have Graham's tailwheel mod, four if
> > >you don't.
> >
> > Tony,
> > Turnbuckles in the TW circuit are a luxury, but not vital. I did find it
is
> > very difficult to adjust them through the tiny inspection hole when
> > everything is closed up. I now believe in getting iot right first time.
I
> > would advise to go for 4mm of spring compression, then get used to the
> > handling. If a change seems desirable just fit new cables. Easy and
cheap
> > and light.
> > Graham
> >
> >
>
>
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
Better! Faster! More Powerful!
250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | tailplane torque tube reinforcing |
Hi! Shaun.
Sorry but it IS confusing if I (and probably Graham!) keep messing up on
the numbers !.
The TP6 bushes tend to take rotational load from the PIP pins and become
loose in the tailplane IF the tailplane rotational driving forces are not
completely taken by the offending drive pins, which elongate the holes in
the TP12 plates. Therefore it is recommended that the holes in the TP4 at
the PIP pins are slightly slotted (rotationally) since they are only there
to retain the tailplanes from sliding OFF the TP4 torque tube. This saves
the TP6's becoming loose, but also ensures that all the rotational driving
load is transmitted by the pins through the drive plates TP12's BUT they
elongate the TP12 holes being a softer material than the torque tube TP4.
Since the trailing edge is so far behind the centreline a minute amount of
wear at this place allows the trailing edge to move about 35 times as much!
I believe the limit between the two tail planes is 3/8ths" before you need
to take some corrective action. However it seems that in spite of
considerable care drilling /reeming the holes and in one of mine needing to
drive the pin into place with a hammer it still wears/tears the TP12 holes.
Our proposed clamp arrangement fixes the TP12's to the tube, TP4, and the
central drive TP9 (one each side) so the whole lot is locked up without any
change to the original design, leaving it all still dismantleable and
coincidentally stiffens the torque tube T4 in bending stresses.
Hopefully this enables you to come to grips with it all?
I strongly recommend some action to be taken before the top of the fuselage
is put on because it is a "BASTARD" job retrospectively especially if the
access hole is less than 5 inches diameter. It's bad enough at 5" diameter
with only one hand and pearing through the small inspection hole above.
Watch this space!
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
O.K., now I'm REALLY confused.
1. Bob, just HOW are your tailplanes loose? fore/aft? side/side?
rotationally?
2. Graham, it seems to me that the TP14 pins in both TP9 and TP12 serve to
transfer the
torques from the pitch pushrod to the tailplanes, so they both have to
be precisely
fit. And therefore additional bearing surface would help. Unless
there's a bit of slop
between TP12's I.D. and the tailplane torque tube's O.D.
Am I missing something?
Shaun
A207
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
> >hi guys i`m at the point of drilling my tailplane torque tubes and was
> >thinking of bonding in a small section of aluminise bar inside the tube
> >directly inline with the pip pins,
> >would this be a practical idea to increase the surface area of the pins,
any
> >thought`s on the above would be appreciated
> >ivor phillips
> >XS486 trike
>
> No. These pins are supposed to allow a little fore and aft play, (but not
> spanwise) so that torque cannot be transmitted by the pip pins. This would
> put too much load on the bonded in TP12s
>
> Graham
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Nick.
Your idea .... I would be concerned about the "ova ling" even with the
aluminium "props" you propose because you would only have friction in the
locality of the bolts.
With the clamp we are proposing we expect 4.7" of circumference to be
transmitting ALL the torque
without any through the pins.
regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
All,
The clamp and Loktite solutions address the problem by by increasing the
friction between the torque tube and tailplane drive bushes, thus reducing
the load imposed by the clevis pins on the edges of these parts to the point
where wear and distortion do not occur. The Loktite answer has the
disadvantage that the friction becomes semi-permanent and could make
disassembly difficult.
Another idea, which may be simpler and less of a design variation, than a
clamp is to substitute bolts and saddle washers for the clevis pins. When
tightened, these would provide both friction and direct loading. The holes
would probably need to be drilled oversize and reamed to be an interference
fit for a 5/16 bolt. Suitable aluminium plugs would be also required inside
the torque tube in way of the bolts (to prevent "ovalling" when the bolts
are tightened) but would not need not be permanently bonded.
The clevis pins in my assembly are only a very slight interference fit and,
given the discussion to date, I would rather fix the problem while I still
have the top off. Grateful for any comment or criticism of the idea outlined
above.
Best regards,
Nick Hammond
XS Monowheel 418
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Bob,
Very interested in the clamp system as it sounds less 'final' even with the
possibility of heat release (note Duncan McFadyean's reservations/
observations). Do keep me posted as at present the 'plane is in the garage
ready for work on it and I hope to get it back on Kidlington airfield by
Easter.
Regards
Peter D
-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
Hi! Peter.
Yes, you are right the TP12's and the TP9 are all stainless. However we are
going ahead with our clamp idea( with respects to John Moran's Intellectual
Property if he insists?) which I'll publish when approved, but I can't see
any structural objection is possible since we are only beefing up rather
than changing existing design. Watch this space.....
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Subject: RE: Tailplanes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing |
Thank You! That makes sense.
I agree with you that an external clamp would be the best arrangement to
spread the loads over the circumference of TP4. Internal bushings or tubes
would not protect TP12 ( and TP9? ), and since the plastic collars cover
TP12, adding a bushing ( those of use who have not installed TP4 yet )
wouldn't
work either.
John Moran's idea sounds good for those of us who haven't closed the tail
yet.
For maintenance access though, it does sound like a split sleeve clamp would
make life easier.
Shaun
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk>
; ;
Subject: RE: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
> Hi! Shaun.
> Sorry but it IS confusing if I (and probably Graham!) keep messing up on
> the numbers !.
> The TP6 bushes tend to take rotational load from the PIP pins and become
> loose in the tailplane IF the tailplane rotational driving forces are not
> completely taken by the offending drive pins, which elongate the holes in
> the TP12 plates. Therefore it is recommended that the holes in the TP4 at
> the PIP pins are slightly slotted (rotationally) since they are only there
> to retain the tailplanes from sliding OFF the TP4 torque tube. This saves
> the TP6's becoming loose, but also ensures that all the rotational driving
> load is transmitted by the pins through the drive plates TP12's BUT they
> elongate the TP12 holes being a softer material than the torque tube TP4.
> Since the trailing edge is so far behind the centreline a minute amount
of
> wear at this place allows the trailing edge to move about 35 times as
much!
> I believe the limit between the two tail planes is 3/8ths" before you need
> to take some corrective action. However it seems that in spite of
> considerable care drilling /reeming the holes and in one of mine needing
to
> drive the pin into place with a hammer it still wears/tears the TP12
holes.
> Our proposed clamp arrangement fixes the TP12's to the tube, TP4, and the
> central drive TP9 (one each side) so the whole lot is locked up without
any
> change to the original design, leaving it all still dismantleable and
> coincidentally stiffens the torque tube T4 in bending stresses.
> Hopefully this enables you to come to grips with it all?
> I strongly recommend some action to be taken before the top of the
fuselage
> is put on because it is a "BASTARD" job retrospectively especially if the
> access hole is less than 5 inches diameter. It's bad enough at 5" diameter
> with only one hand and pearing through the small inspection hole above.
> Watch this space!
> Regards
> Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
> Subject: Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
>
>
> O.K., now I'm REALLY confused.
>
> 1. Bob, just HOW are your tailplanes loose? fore/aft? side/side?
> rotationally?
>
> 2. Graham, it seems to me that the TP14 pins in both TP9 and TP12 serve to
> transfer the
> torques from the pitch pushrod to the tailplanes, so they both have to
> be precisely
> fit. And therefore additional bearing surface would help. Unless
> there's a bit of slop
> between TP12's I.D. and the tailplane torque tube's O.D.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Shaun
> A207
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Singleton" <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: tailplane torque tube reinforcing
>
>
> > >hi guys i`m at the point of drilling my tailplane torque tubes and was
> > >thinking of bonding in a small section of aluminise bar inside the tube
> > >directly inline with the pip pins,
> > >would this be a practical idea to increase the surface area of the
pins,
> any
> > >thought`s on the above would be appreciated
> > >ivor phillips
> > >XS486 trike
> >
> > No. These pins are supposed to allow a little fore and aft play, (but
not
> > spanwise) so that torque cannot be transmitted by the pip pins. This
would
> > put too much load on the bonded in TP12s
> >
> > Graham
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi all, had to carve a recess in my aileron foam to make a flush access cover
flange for my electric trim tab. As you all know getting the depth just right
and even is not easy. Oh the foam sands easy but you have to measure depth
sand measure sand, etc. So here's the trick. Get a dremel with a round head
wire brush and the attachment for the dremel that makes it into a mini
router. Set the depth of the recess move the dremel back and forth and there
you have it an even recess with the sides beveled ready for a lay-up.
SteveD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
Bob Harrison
Peter Davis ,
Fred Fillinger
As I understood it, a stainless TP tube could not be procured in the
optimum diameter and wall thickness and/or was too expensive to turn-down
from heavier stuff. My senile memory seems to retain all totally unuseful
data!
Duncan McFadyean
On Tuesday, January 15, 2002 12:42 AM, Graham Singleton
[SMTP:grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk] wrote:
> > However just out of
> >interest I know that the torque tube is NICKLE plated so I guess it
isn't
> >stainless otherwise it wouldn't plate.
> >Not that the plate stays on long! Don't know about the TP12 and TP9
Parts
> >though.
>
> AFAIK the torque tube is 4130, stainless isn't strong enough. The bushes
> are stainless though.
> graham
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Splashes in rear fuselage.... |
Personally, my sleeves and respective pins were kept in the correct order
and only assembled twice during the build process; the second assembly
being the final assembly. There was no play then, but now there is;
primarily in the s'bd side, a little in the TP arm sleeve and none in the
port side.
Mine however may have been subject to a pounding from the BMW "experiment",
but this would be no more than a bad start on a 912 and only serves to
highlight the sensitivity of this area.
Duncan mcFadyean
On Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:00 PM, J R (Bob) Gowing
[SMTP:gowingjr(at)acr.net.au] wrote:
> Fergus, Duncan and all,
>
> Although I am a long way from finished UK kit 327, I have followed this
> story with interest and believe that the parts made at the factory have
not
> been precisely drilled across the centre line of the tube. This means
that
> if you do not keep all the various component parts in exactly the same
> locations and orientation, then you must elongate holes circumferntially
to
> some extent. So it then depends on luck in reassembly whether they are
> elonged around the circumference a little of a lot.
>
> Thus I can imagine that although Bob redrilled larger holes, he could
have
> still missed cutting out to some of the edges; but I would have expected
> that the amount of play should have been reduced. And so he has advised -
at
> first!
>
> Why play should then increase again I cannot imagine. Unless the
tailplanes
> are hammering away against the pins when it would no doubt be obvious
> through the control stick!
>
> JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
> Subject: Splashes in rear fuselage....
>
>
> > attn: I guess, Graham S:
> >
> > This topic was fascinating and productive reading. But I ran into a
mental
> > snag at one stage and beg clarification.
> > The idea is to avoid that difficult bit about flanging the
> pitch
> > stop mechanism to the fuselage top without crawling into a dungoen back
> > there. I followed the theme until the 'splash' is laid in the fuselage
top
> > and the result affixed to the stop before top is glued on.
> > I found the top to be floppy and pliable UNTIL it is
cleco-ed
> > onto the canoe. That is when (I have read) that all assumes untwisted,
> > levelled correctness.
> > How then do you cut the pitchstop structure to proper
length
> > before the top goes on, and how do you ensure that the splash matches
> proper
> > top shape if the top is not attached?
> > In the "Upper Elevator Stop" photo, the stop seems to be
very
> > accurately cut to length and shape of the top interior (accurate
> apparently
> > to the 1/16th inch). I apologize for seeming slow-witted by then it's
hard
> > to hide the obvious.
> > Ferg
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | tailplane torque tube reinforcing |
>Hi! Graham.
>In your text below I think you mean TP6's bonded in ? The TP12's are the
>drive plates / bushes.
>Regards
>Bob H G-PTAG
Bob,
You are absolutely right. I was too lazy (too late at night too!) to get
out the manual and check the numbers! Apologies to all.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | WAS splashes now degenerated to Tailplane Torque tube. |
Hi! Guys.
Just like to say "I'm long enough in the tooth to know about marking up
mating parts prior to mixing them up NO CHANCE ! I even bought a dremmel
cutter for etching ."
Basically there's no argument about the facts, the parts wear and that's
that, I know ,you know,
anyone that doesn't is putting their head up their ......!
I just want it fixed final, no more buggering about!!!!
Regards
Bob Harrison.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk
Subject: RE: Splashes in rear fuselage....
Personally, my sleeves and respective pins were kept in the correct order
and only assembled twice during the build process; the second assembly
being the final assembly. There was no play then, but now there is;
primarily in the s'bd side, a little in the TP arm sleeve and none in the
port side.
Mine however may have been subject to a pounding from the BMW "experiment",
but this would be no more than a bad start on a 912 and only serves to
highlight the sensitivity of this area.
Duncan mcFadyean
On Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:00 PM, J R (Bob) Gowing
[SMTP:gowingjr(at)acr.net.au] wrote:
> Fergus, Duncan and all,
>
> Although I am a long way from finished UK kit 327, I have followed this
> story with interest and believe that the parts made at the factory have
not
> been precisely drilled across the centre line of the tube. This means
that
> if you do not keep all the various component parts in exactly the same
> locations and orientation, then you must elongate holes circumferntially
to
> some extent. So it then depends on luck in reassembly whether they are
> elonged around the circumference a little of a lot.
>
> Thus I can imagine that although Bob redrilled larger holes, he could
have
> still missed cutting out to some of the edges; but I would have expected
> that the amount of play should have been reduced. And so he has advised -
at
> first!
>
> Why play should then increase again I cannot imagine. Unless the
tailplanes
> are hammering away against the pins when it would no doubt be obvious
> through the control stick!
>
> JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
> Subject: Splashes in rear fuselage....
>
>
> > attn: I guess, Graham S:
> >
> > This topic was fascinating and productive reading. But I ran into a
mental
> > snag at one stage and beg clarification.
> > The idea is to avoid that difficult bit about flanging the
> pitch
> > stop mechanism to the fuselage top without crawling into a dungoen back
> > there. I followed the theme until the 'splash' is laid in the fuselage
top
> > and the result affixed to the stop before top is glued on.
> > I found the top to be floppy and pliable UNTIL it is
cleco-ed
> > onto the canoe. That is when (I have read) that all assumes untwisted,
> > levelled correctness.
> > How then do you cut the pitchstop structure to proper
length
> > before the top goes on, and how do you ensure that the splash matches
> proper
> > top shape if the top is not attached?
> > In the "Upper Elevator Stop" photo, the stop seems to be
very
> > accurately cut to length and shape of the top interior (accurate
> apparently
> > to the 1/16th inch). I apologize for seeming slow-witted by then it's
hard
> > to hide the obvious.
> > Ferg
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers,
I have seen my name bandied about in the name of tail pins.
Serious as I may be about these pins, I have not, do not, nor will not have
any truck with them during a discussion of 'splashes' which was so
universally responded to. To those who wrote, my genuine thanks. To those
who chose to embroil me in tail pins, a curled lip.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
The subject of the loosening of contact in the tailplane torque tube
has been long and profound. I have archived most of the cogent theories and
solutions for future phase.
However, if the discussion still centres around loose pins in
expanding holes, perhaps it's worth considering the taper pins - how they
might recover tight contact somehow.
FergA064
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Fred,
Locktight works well and you can remove the components if needed using a
light bulb to heat up the tube from the inside. I have already done it
and it is very easy. Just dont use too much locktight, a ring at the
outside edge is enough.
Barry Tennant
Fred Fillinger schrieb:
>
> > Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> > I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at full
> > size.
> > Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in 7.5ft.
> > Better flutter resistance as well?
> >
> > Nic
> > xs a145
> > :)
>
> The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
> to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
> tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
> Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
> but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
> with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
> experience tells me quit worrying.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Barry.
I also tried the ring of loctite on the outside (carefully because you will
have a "bad hair day" if it gets in the main bush,) and only one side
,however keep it/them checked because it could still come loose without the
bulb, mine did ,been there done that...... also remember that the phosphor
bronze bush is a very effecient heat conductor through to the Redux holding
them in place.
So ever slowly the numbers of people that have this problem is creeping up,
I was begining to think it applied to only a few!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
Hi Fred,
Locktight works well and you can remove the components if needed using a
light bulb to heat up the tube from the inside. I have already done it
and it is very easy. Just dont use too much locktight, a ring at the
outside edge is enough.
Barry Tennant
>Fred Fillinger schrieb:
>
> > Would it make any sense to permanently bond the elevators in place?
> > I understand that the flight performance is exceptional with them at
full
> > size.
> > Perhaps a compromise between removableness vs small enough to fit w/in
7.5ft.
> > Better flutter resistance as well?
> >
> > Nic
> > xs a145
> > :)
>
> The only gamble would be whether you'd need to remove the torque tube
> to repair/replace something. Looks like hacksaw through the torque
> tube, and order up a new pair of stabilator cores and start all over?
> Flutter would be moot if factory arrangement is fabricated tightly,
> but some play is tolerable I would guess. There's a lot old planes
> with play back there, my other plane included. My inspector w/50 yrs
> experience tells me quit worrying.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
>I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
>inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
>
>Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
The 3.125" holesaw available for loan to Europa Club members is a
tungsten carbide grit type, so is unsuitable for use on aluminium
(I've tried it without success). It works fine on GRP, though.
Does anyone know if there are any of the water-jet or similar cutter
shops in UK?
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve & Eileen Genotte <gopack(at)sprintmail.com> |
We have left the old 20th Century dial-up modem behind and switched to
AT&T Broadband. In 2 weeks our Sprintmail account will cease to be.
Please make a note of our new email address - gopackgo(at)attbi.com
Once the website is moved over to AT&T's server, I'll make that new URL
known.
Ciao!
Steve and Eileen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Mills" <Roger.Mills(at)btinternet.com> |
Rowland, Richard,
Surely you don't have to go high - tech for small volume work? Light Aero
spares do an inexpensive trepanning cutter - which works well on aluminium
as long as you mark the work piece accurately, ensure that the pilot drill
is set so that the tip of the cutter aligns with the shaft of the drill, not
the flute (otherwise you risk enlarging the pilot hole) and drill vertically
to the surface at slow speed (I used a carpenter's brace - low tech!). I
admit, I took no risks and finally hand filed the holes for the last mm with
a semi-circular file
Regards
Roger Mills
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Carson
Subject: Re: Holes in panel
>I understand that the main 6 instruments are best served by a hole 3.16
>inches, just larger than 3 1/8.
>
>Spruce have a 3 1/8 hole cutter which I'm sure will do the job.
The 3.125" holesaw available for loan to Europa Club members is a
tungsten carbide grit type, so is unsuitable for use on aluminium
(I've tried it without success). It works fine on GRP, though.
Does anyone know if there are any of the water-jet or similar cutter
shops in UK?
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
Bob Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Barry.
> I also tried the ring of loctite on the outside (carefully because you will
> have a "bad hair day" if it gets in the main bush,) and only one side
> ,however keep it/them checked because it could still come loose without the
> bulb, mine did ,been there done that...... also remember that the phosphor
> bronze bush is a very effecient heat conductor through to the Redux holding
> them in place.
> So ever slowly the numbers of people that have this problem is creeping up,
> I was begining to think it applied to only a few!
>
Is it more than a few? The original inquiry, and my response, were
from builders with zero hours yet, and at least mine are fine!
I wonder, though, if both pins have been Loctited, how does one
introduce heat through the torque tube on the first tailplane to be
removed?
Is there a consensus as to the cause of eventual looseness?
Rotational force against the pin in cruise should be zero, without any
pressure on the stick. Maybe some turbulent air and helical prop wash
on the stabs, but is that enough to distort the steel to make the hole
larger? Aerobatics then? Or is it in starting the engine, or turf
bouncing on the monowheel, or engine runup in high winds from a
certain direction on the tri-gear? I have peeked back at the latter
effect on my AA-5, and it ain't pretty. Maybe just in how the holes
were drilled? The manual method was not approved by the Director of
Acceptable Methods in my one-man shop. I hand-enlarged them to a snug
1/4" with hobby tools, and I question the manual in stating it doesn't
matter that they're drilled off- center.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | r cowl temperatures |
N135TD, an XS mono-wheel with 912S, has about 110 hours on it now. We
have had problems with the muffler coming off the header pipes, due to
retaining springs losing their tension (temper?).
Suspecting excess heat as the problem, we installed thermocouples in
the several places inside the upper and lower cowl, connected to our
engine monitoring gauges. These gauges log the cowl temps plus all
engine parameters once every ten seconds. After each flight, all data is
downloaded to a laptop for evaluation.
Our initial test flight showed lower cowl temps peaking at 400 F,
sustained temps of 375 F, with an OAT of about 35 F. It is quite likely
then that on a hot day our cowl temps are up to 450 F. We have found
droplets of nylon tie wrap in the lower cowl, which melt at about 450 F,
I'm told. Our upper cowl temps run cool at about 70-80 F. Lower cowl
temps can vary by up to 150 deg F, depending on fairly small changes in
pitch and yaw, with cruise attitude and power and a yaw (even a slight
one) to the right causing the worst temps (ram air entering the exhaust
opening in the left side of the cowl seems the culprit).
We have made a number of mods to the cowl to try to bring the lower
cowl temps down, with about 12 test flights on different configurations
so far. We have managed to drop the peak temps to about 280 F, with
sustained temps of about 275 (OAT of about 40 F). This particular
configuration has two reverse scoops at the bottom of the cowl and a
2.25" cooling hole in the upper part of the radiator duct. We have yet
to perform cruise performance tests to see how much the additional drag
has hurt us.
Has anyone else noticed excess heat in the lower cowl?
Any suggestions on what mods to the cowl will get rid of this heat?
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> Bob Harrison wrote:
> >
> > Hi! Barry.
> > I also tried the ring of loctite on the outside (carefully because you
will
> > have a "bad hair day" if it gets in the main bush,) and only one side
> > ,however keep it/them checked because it could still come loose without
the
> > bulb, mine did ,been there done that...... also remember that the
phosphor
> > bronze bush is a very effecient heat conductor through to the Redux
holding
> > them in place.
> > So ever slowly the numbers of people that have this problem is creeping
up,
> > I was begining to think it applied to only a few!
> >
>
> Is it more than a few? The original inquiry, and my response, were
> from builders with zero hours yet, and at least mine are fine!
>
> I wonder, though, if both pins have been Loctited, how does one
> introduce heat through the torque tube on the first tailplane to be
> removed?
>
> Is there a consensus as to the cause of eventual looseness?
> Rotational force against the pin in cruise should be zero, without any
> pressure on the stick. Maybe some turbulent air and helical prop wash
> on the stabs, but is that enough to distort the steel to make the hole
> larger? Aerobatics then?
Is this true when you consider the mass balance weight? The fact that the
stick doesn't need anyone holding it and the plane stays level, suggests to
me that there must be a force on the pin to counter balance the mass balance
weight. This would then make me think that any slight movement on the
tailplane (due to the air), would put quite a lot of force on the pin,
especially if flutter isn't induced.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - 07050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
In a static situation the tailplanes are counterbalanced by the
counterbalance weight, the moments for which are transmitted through the TP
pins.Any g loading increases these loads proportionately.Any shock loads
(counterbalance weight coming up against the upper stop) have a similar
magnifying affect.
Interesting thread this! No concrete solutions yet though.
Duncan McFadyean
On Wednesday, January 16, 2002 5:56 PM, Fred Fillinger
[SMTP:fillinger(at)ameritech.net] wrote:
> Bob Harrison wrote:
> >
> > Hi! Barry.
> > I also tried the ring of loctite on the outside (carefully because you
will
> > have a "bad hair day" if it gets in the main bush,) and only one side
> > ,however keep it/them checked because it could still come loose without
the
> > bulb, mine did ,been there done that...... also remember that the
phosphor
> > bronze bush is a very effecient heat conductor through to the Redux
holding
> > them in place.
> > So ever slowly the numbers of people that have this problem is
creeping up,
> > I was begining to think it applied to only a few!
> >
>
> Is it more than a few? The original inquiry, and my response, were
> from builders with zero hours yet, and at least mine are fine!
>
> I wonder, though, if both pins have been Loctited, how does one
> introduce heat through the torque tube on the first tailplane to be
> removed?
>
> Is there a consensus as to the cause of eventual looseness?
> Rotational force against the pin in cruise should be zero, without any
> pressure on the stick. Maybe some turbulent air and helical prop wash
> on the stabs, but is that enough to distort the steel to make the hole
> larger? Aerobatics then? Or is it in starting the engine, or turf
> bouncing on the monowheel, or engine runup in high winds from a
> certain direction on the tri-gear? I have peeked back at the latter
> effect on my AA-5, and it ain't pretty. Maybe just in how the holes
> were drilled? The manual method was not approved by the Director of
> Acceptable Methods in my one-man shop. I hand-enlarged them to a snug
> 1/4" with hobby tools, and I question the manual in stating it doesn't
> matter that they're drilled off- center.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Goldyfire(at)cs.com |
| Subject: | Re: Lower cowl temperatures |
Which exhaust system is this the Heggerman or Falcon?
Derek 167
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lower cowl temperatures |
Goldyfire(at)cs.com wrote:
> Which exhaust system is this the Heggerman or Falcon?
> Derek 167
Our first exhaust system had muffler with an oblong cross section, with
a slip ring interface to the header pipes. The small retaining springs
in this system failed in the first 3 hours after first flight, allowing
the muffler to drop away from the header pipes, dumping high amounts of
CO (~200 ppm) into the cabin.
About 80 hours ago we installed a newer exhaust system with oblong
muffler and a ball joint interface to the header pipes, which lasted
about 60 hours before the springs could no longer hold the muffler tight
to the headers, allowing it to drop down, as before.
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Mark./Fred
MARK. I reckon you've made a good observation. Let's face it there is a
substantial load needed on the control stick at about 18" lever to activate
the mass balance weight without the tailplanes fitted, so the weight and
leverage has to go somewhere and the pins /TP12's are at a very small lever
arm so the weight must be quite high.. the elongation of the TP12 holes is
definitely wear not a tear and the amount is so small, it's just the ratio
multiplication to the trailing edge that makes for the measurement there
substantial. What is your perception of the published maximum opposing
travel between both trailing edges?
Andy Draper would have me say he is "revisiting the problem and calculations
are being done for 3/8" oversize pins to replace the original pins."
In the meantime I'm progressing with my clamp because with ZERO movement
there'll be NO wear EVER in that location OR on the TP9. However I have
spent 4 hours with mole grips pulling the one size oversize pins out (that's
how tight they were reamed!) since I had to dismantle it all to shorten the
TP10 Nylon bushes for my clamp to have more "land" of the TP12's to be
gripped. Incidentally
I also decided that since I now have it all apart I'm upsizing to 5/16"ths
as well. BUT I do expect this will be the LAST time it needs to come apart.
No out of balance start up on the 3300 Jabiru, Fred. and not that much grass
field work but probably twice as many landings (bounces!) as the records
show!!!!!
FRED, it hasn't been suggested to apply the loctite to the pins but the TP12
drive plate/bushes to the torque tube TP4, that's why I'm suggesting
problems with heat to release it again could have an effect on the Redux
used to position the Bronze bearings. Only 153 hours on G-PTAG yet. How many
hours on yours?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <fillinger(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> Bob Harrison wrote:
> >
> > Hi! Barry.
> > I also tried the ring of loctite on the outside (carefully because you
will
> > have a "bad hair day" if it gets in the main bush,) and only one side
> > ,however keep it/them checked because it could still come loose without
the
> > bulb, mine did ,been there done that...... also remember that the
phosphor
> > bronze bush is a very effecient heat conductor through to the Redux
holding
> > them in place.
> > So ever slowly the numbers of people that have this problem is creeping
up,
> > I was begining to think it applied to only a few!
> >
>
> Is it more than a few? The original inquiry, and my response, were
> from builders with zero hours yet, and at least mine are fine!
>
> I wonder, though, if both pins have been Loctited, how does one
> introduce heat through the torque tube on the first tailplane to be
> removed?
>
> Is there a consensus as to the cause of eventual looseness?
> Rotational force against the pin in cruise should be zero, without any
> pressure on the stick. Maybe some turbulent air and helical prop wash
> on the stabs, but is that enough to distort the steel to make the hole
> larger? Aerobatics then?
Is this true when you consider the mass balance weight? The fact that the
stick doesn't need anyone holding it and the plane stays level, suggests to
me that there must be a force on the pin to counter balance the mass balance
weight. This would then make me think that any slight movement on the
tailplane (due to the air), would put quite a lot of force on the pin,
especially if flutter isn't induced.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - 07050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J R \(Bob\) Gowing" <gowingjr(at)acr.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: WAS splashes now degenerated to Tailplane Torque tube. |
OK guys, I'm the one who accidentally wrote about tailplanes under the
Splashes subject heading and I am suitably humbled; apologies to all.
But at last I realise that the tailplane tube problem is really serious. We
will have to understand the cause before a proper fix can be worked out. So
far it looks to me that Mark Jackson identified the cause when he said "Is
this true when you consider the mass balance weight? The fact that the
stick doesn't need anyone holding it and the plane stays level, suggests to
me that there must be a force on the pin to counter balance the mass balance
weight. This would then make me think that any slight movement on the
tailplane (due to the air), would put quite a lot of force on the pin,
especially if flutter isn't induced."
Air loads shaking the tailplane against the inertia of the mass balance
weight would not be felt in the stick, the forces fighting against each
other on the TP4! Thus, rough engine starting, or anything else that shakes
the tail up and down quickly and especially rhythmically, would produce a
succession of high loads on the pins and be a very likely candidate for the
cause of our troubles in my view. And this scenario would provide a start to
calculating the forces that will have to be provided for.
Sincerely
JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
>Is there a consensus as to the cause of eventual looseness?
>Rotational force against the pin in cruise should be zero, without any
>pressure on the stick. Maybe some turbulent air and helical prop wash
>on the stabs, but is that enough to distort the steel to make the hole
>larger? Aerobatics then? Or is it in starting the engine, or turf
>bouncing on the monowheel, or engine runup in high winds from a
>certain direction on the tri-gear?
>Fred F.
I don't know of any conclusive answer to that. My own guess is that as Mark
pointed out, the pins are loaded one way when on the ground by the weight
of the tail being resisted (balanced) by the balance arm. If the airplane
bounces on the ground that load will reverse. If there is any play in the
holes at all this reversal of loads will cause slight hammering. The bigger
the backlash the bigger the hammering effect. The problem is the very small
contact area of the holes in the tube.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
> In a static situation the tailplanes are counterbalanced by the
> counterbalance weight, the moments for which are transmitted through the TP
> pins. Any g loading increases these loads proportionately.Any shock loads
> (counterbalance weight coming up against the upper stop) have a similar
> magnifying affect.
>
> Interesting thread this! No concrete solutions yet though.
>
> Duncan McFadyean
I gotta be careful in encroaching on technical details in this group,
lest others really understand this stuff! No doubt about the banging
the mass balance weight against stops, nor G-loaded flight. In static
load, the center of mass of the tailplanes is aft of the hinge line
(the torque tube), but I figured just a few pounds rotational force.
In flight, same effect, but plus/minus wherever the center of lift is
relative to the hinge line. In level cruise flight, the pressure
distribution is typically graphed for a laminar shape like this is
supposed to balance out the static aft heaviness. I picture low
pounds of rotational force on any of the components, until you pull
G's, where center of lift shifts really fwd (giving you desired stick
force gradient), and that should stress the parts.
Cruise is where she spends most of the time, and low values of steady
pressure on the parts shouldn't mash metal, no? That's why I was
thinking about conditions where the thing is pounded and twisted,
because that adds the multiplier effect of inertia. I recall the trim
tab beef-up mod where something was breaking the welds on the tab
drive pins, blamed on start-up shaking.
As an aside, this relationship of lift-center to hinge line makes
stabilators a tricky balancing act, and fixed surfaces with elevators
are an easier out. It's covered in Don Dykins' book on the Europa,
and a chapter in Horner's book on lift. Stability, stick force
gradient, and low-speed tail effectiveness are affected too,
especially in a short-coupled airplane with greatly effective flaps
(airflow change), making tail area and wing distance further things to
play with. Or so they say. But in terms of flight characteristics
Dykins apparently got it right?
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
> Hi! Mark./Fred
> MARK. I reckon you've made a good observation. Let's face it there is a
> substantial load needed on the control stick at about 18" lever to
activate
> the mass balance weight without the tailplanes fitted, so the weight and
> leverage has to go somewhere and the pins /TP12's are at a very small
lever
> arm so the weight must be quite high..
I think the load can be experienced by removing both sides of the tailplane
and trying to lift the mass balance by twisting the tube.
> the elongation of the TP12 holes is
> definitely wear not a tear and the amount is so small, it's just the ratio
> multiplication to the trailing edge that makes for the measurement there
> substantial. What is your perception of the published maximum opposing
> travel between both trailing edges?
I'm affraid I couldn't answer that, I'm still very new to this aeroplane
building.
> Andy Draper would have me say he is "revisiting the problem and
calculations
> are being done for 3/8" oversize pins to replace the original pins."
> In the meantime I'm progressing with my clamp because with ZERO movement
> there'll be NO wear EVER in that location OR on the TP9.
I would be very interested in seeing what you come up with for the clamp.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Yes! Mark.
PLUS operational forces and 'G' forces and impact momentum etc. when it hits
the bump stop.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> Hi! Mark./Fred
> MARK. I reckon you've made a good observation. Let's face it there is a
> substantial load needed on the control stick at about 18" lever to
activate
> the mass balance weight without the tailplanes fitted, so the weight and
> leverage has to go somewhere and the pins /TP12's are at a very small
lever
> arm so the weight must be quite high..
I think the load can be experienced by removing both sides of the tailplane
and trying to lift the mass balance by twisting the tube.
> the elongation of the TP12 holes is
> definitely wear not a tear and the amount is so small, it's just the ratio
> multiplication to the trailing edge that makes for the measurement there
> substantial. What is your perception of the published maximum opposing
> travel between both trailing edges?
I'm affraid I couldn't answer that, I'm still very new to this aeroplane
building.
> Andy Draper would have me say he is "revisiting the problem and
calculations
> are being done for 3/8" oversize pins to replace the original pins."
> In the meantime I'm progressing with my clamp because with ZERO movement
> there'll be NO wear EVER in that location OR on the TP9.
I would be very interested in seeing what you come up with for the clamp.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - +44 (0)7050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: WAS splashes now degenerated to Tailplane |
Torque tube.
> Air loads shaking the tailplane against the inertia of the mass balance
>weight would not be felt in the stick, the forces fighting against each
>other on the TP4! Thus, rough engine starting, or anything else that shakes
>the tail up and down quickly and especially rhythmically, would produce a
>succession of high loads on the pins and be a very likely candidate for the
>cause of our troubles in my view.
And the loads would become hammering loads if there is any looseness.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nigel_graham" <nigel_graham(at)intercept.com> |
Duncan,
I identified this problem some time back.
My solution was to insert into the torque tube, four anodised alloy discs
10mm thick, cross drilled and positioned to align with the torque tube cross
drills at TP's 9 and 12 and secured in position with Loctite. The purpose of
the discs is to prevent the torque tube distorting - the purpose of the
Loctite is to hold the discs in place during assembly - nothing more.
At each station, two alloy "saddle plates" , inside radius machined to match
TP12 & TP9 OD, are bolted in place using AN hardware (replacing the SS
pins).
This provides a positive clamping to prevent movement, drive is provided by
the double shear of the bolts.
Only thing to watch out is the tight clearance between the securing nut and
the bulkhead.
This arrangement can be dismantled and re-assembled at will - unlike your
Loctite solution.
Engineering approval would of course be needed.
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
................. I can't see any proven long term alternative to the
Loctite route and that wouldn't involve potentially protractedPFA approval.
Even then, the Loctite bond might be subject to progressive failure.
Duncan McFadyean
by Aviators Network UK - info(at)avnet.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
| From: | Richard Holder <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk> |
> The following may be of interest to Europa builders who have yet to build the
> instrument panel.
>
> We're working on producing 2mm thick light alloy panels with the 6 main flight
> instrument holes with the associated mounting holes and cut outs for
> altimeters and VSIs already cut. There will probably also be cut-outs for the
> tacho and a 52mm dia hole typically for a boost gauge or fuel gauge in the
> upper right area. An additional hole for a 1" type vacuum gauge will be above
> the centre instrument holes. If I've pressed the correct buttons you should
> be able to see what is proposed in the attachment.
>
> So far we have not had any of these panels made and they were not going to be
> announced until the next newsletter, but as there has been some discussion on
> the subject, it seemed appropriate to let you know what was in the pipeline.
> We most likely will produce panels for the other areas as well.
>
> Best Regards
> Andy Draper
Thanks Andy for this. I have to report that the button pressing wasn't
altogether right as I received four copies !
I have to say that although what you propose is a step forward I have no
intention of leaving that 'hole' in the panel (for the mono lever). My plan
is to cover the whole of the left hand panel (including the lower sub-panel)
with a piece of 2mm aluminium, which has a 90 bend forwards at the bottom to
attach to the existing panel undertray. Then there is considerable
flexibility and of course a line of engine instruments can be put down its
right hand side.
What does the list think ?
My heartfelt wish would be a completely redesigned panel with a flat panel
on the left hand side, and maybe a square box on the right instead of the
sandwich tray :-)
Of course this might not be so attractive to mono owners and I admit I
haven't looked too carefully at how much space the mono lever needs.
As an aside you have drawn the tacho as needing four mounting holes. Isn't
it a mounted from the front item like the remainder of the engine
instruments ? And what diameter hole is needed ? 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 ?
Also the DI needs a cutout in the bottom left corner like the ALT.
Just my twopennyworth.
Richard Holder
Co-owner Kit 51 back on the building course after a 7 year hold.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Nigel.
Seems good to me( not that I'm purporting to be any authority, simply IMHO!)
as long as the bolt SHANK is to act as the shear in both fore and aft
locations or "double" as you say. If the length isn't sufficient the shear
at the nut end will be taken by the thread which will also be a smaller
diameter resulting in any movement initially being taken on one shank
diameter only should the friction not be enough. The clamping action of the
saddles will deplete as it gets further from the bolt.
Our clamp system, although not having any internal supports to the TP4 Tube
sides of the central assembly and will stiffen the central portion of the
TP4 Tube outboard both sides to encompass about 1/4" of the inboard end of
each TP12 Drive Plate Bush. Our clamps don't change the initial design
(except the slight shortening of the nylon bushes TP10's so unlikely to need
Modification Approval (watch this space!!!!)
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
Duncan,
I identified this problem some time back.
My solution was to insert into the torque tube, four anodised alloy discs
10mm thick, cross drilled and positioned to align with the torque tube cross
drills at TP's 9 and 12 and secured in position with Loctite. The purpose of
the discs is to prevent the torque tube distorting - the purpose of the
Loctite is to hold the discs in place during assembly - nothing more.
At each station, two alloy "saddle plates" , inside radius machined to match
TP12 & TP9 OD, are bolted in place using AN hardware (replacing the SS
pins).
This provides a positive clamping to prevent movement, drive is provided by
the double shear of the bolts.
Only thing to watch out is the tight clearance between the securing nut and
the bulkhead.
This arrangement can be dismantled and re-assembled at will - unlike your
Loctite solution.
Engineering approval would of course be needed.
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
................. I can't see any proven long term alternative to the
Loctite route and that wouldn't involve potentially protractedPFA approval.
Even then, the Loctite bond might be subject to progressive failure.
Duncan McFadyean
by Aviators Network UK - info(at)avnet.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nigel_graham" <nigel_graham(at)intercept.com> |
.................as long as the bolt SHANK is to act as the shear in both
fore and aft
locations or "double" as you say. If the length isn't sufficient the shear
at the nut end will be taken by the thread .................
Absolutrely right Bob. I don't have my notes to hand, but there is a perfect
AN4 bolt to suite.
........ The clamping action of the
saddles will deplete as it gets further from the bolt...................
Again, absolutely right, but this is intentionally so.
The TP9 / TP12 sleeves can only clamp onto TP4 if they deform (or tend to
deform) SLIGHTLY .
In your "totally surrounded" solution, the clamping force may be so evenly
distributed, that the TP9 TP12 bushes are prevented from distorting and thus
don't clamp onto the TP4 Torque tube. You may find that you need to cut
expansion slots lengthways on the TP9 & TP12 bushes to get them to clamp
properly (and I personally would not do that).
.................... although not having any internal supports to the TP4
Tube......................
TP4 on the other hand, must not be allowed to deform at all - especially in
the area adjacent to the bronze bushes, since this could introduce some
friction in the pitch control. That is why I introduced the supporting
"Discs" .....and would recommend them for your system.
Cheers
Nigel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
Is there any way that a strain gauge could be placed to actually measure the
impact loading on the drive sleeves?
Impulse forces can be immense. I can usually knock a well-clamped piece out
of alignment by a few good hammer-blows.
Thicker pins increase bearing surface area slowly.
Shaun
----- Original Message -----
From: "nigel_graham" <nigel_graham(at)intercept.com>
; "'Peter Davis'" ;
; "Fred Fillinger"
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
>
> .................as long as the bolt SHANK is to act as the shear in both
> fore and aft
> locations or "double" as you say. If the length isn't sufficient the shear
> at the nut end will be taken by the thread .................
>
> Absolutrely right Bob. I don't have my notes to hand, but there is a
perfect
> AN4 bolt to suite.
>
> ........ The clamping action of the
> saddles will deplete as it gets further from the bolt...................
>
> Again, absolutely right, but this is intentionally so.
> The TP9 / TP12 sleeves can only clamp onto TP4 if they deform (or tend to
> deform) SLIGHTLY .
> In your "totally surrounded" solution, the clamping force may be so evenly
> distributed, that the TP9 TP12 bushes are prevented from distorting and
thus
> don't clamp onto the TP4 Torque tube. You may find that you need to cut
> expansion slots lengthways on the TP9 & TP12 bushes to get them to clamp
> properly (and I personally would not do that).
>
> .................... although not having any internal supports to the TP4
> Tube......................
>
> TP4 on the other hand, must not be allowed to deform at all - especially
in
> the area adjacent to the bronze bushes, since this could introduce some
> friction in the pitch control. That is why I introduced the supporting
> "Discs" .....and would recommend them for your system.
>
> Cheers
>
> Nigel
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
Does anyone actually have any statistics of a problem...?
My present solution is carefully preserving the match of the parts, making
sure the pins were a good fit, assembling them with a high strength loctite,
and then flowing in penetrating locktite between TP12 and the torque tube...
I'd rather not have to turn my attention back to it, if it isn't really a
problem.
Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Wigney <johnwigney(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lower cowl temperatures |
<<<>>>
Hi Terry,
Very interesting. I will keep an eye on this problem for my 912S mono XS. I
have several nylon wire ties and nylon spiral wire loom sleeves on my engine
but have not seen a problem yet. I did have some corrugated split loom
sleeve but that was polypropylene and softened rapidly and I have now
removed all that. On my cowl, I have put in the standard upper NACA carb
inlet as per the manual. On the lower starboard surface, there is the inlet
which is designed to feed the 914 engine turbo installation. I just opened
this up so that air blows into the lower engine bay. I had thought that this
may be a drag item and considered fairing it over later but will consider
that change more carefully now. What have you done with that lower inlet on
yours ?
There is one item you might consider if you have not already done so. I
installed my oil cooler in the position as shown in the manual i.e. behind
the coolant radiator and up to the top surfacer of the duct. I found during
my initial engine power runs on the ground that I was getting overheating
and on checking around other owners and with Europa head office found that
many builders have lowered the oil cooler with longer bolts and spacers to
be at the bottom of the duct so that it gets inlet air through the gap
between the radiator and cowl inner surface. This seems pretty obvious but I
just followed the book ! Since OAT's here in North Carolina are low at the
moment and cooling is much better in flight, I do not have a problem now but
intend to do that mod later. Anyway, during these discussions, a builder in
Florida with a lot of flight time mentioned that it is important to provide
additional area for air to exit the cowling since the upper shark gill
exits are inadequate. He recommended that the upper surface of the aluminum
cooling duct be cut away behind the oil cooler. This gives a greater exit
area for the hot air to depart the engine bay and is a mod I intend to carry
out.
Any comments ?
Cheers, John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
> Thicker pins increase bearing surface area slowly.
I would imagine that the solution would be a second set of pins @90 to the
first set....
M
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Seaver <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lower cowl temperatures |
Hi John,
Our molten tie wrap was on the stb firewall next to the oil reservoir, some
distance from the exhaust components.
We removed our '914 turbo inlet' duct and glassed over the hole. It is not
clear what effect it might have if it were there.
We have had our oil cooler lowered to a staggered position from the
beginning, and still have some cooling problems on the ground. We have also
faired in the lip of the cooling duct inlet, added an aluminum lip to the
bottom, rear, of the cowl, and provided a ramp at the radiator inlet to try to
improve flow on the ground, with very limited success. We are still looking at
this one.
We cut back the rear, upper surface of the aluminum cooling duct, about 6
inches. With only a slight improvement in lower cowl temps. It would appear
that any increased cooling air flow simply went across the top of the engine,
down the back side, and out the increased exit area provided, bypassing the hot
exhaust areas. This extra outlet area is probably necessary for good cooling,
it just wasn't enough change, on its own, to make a big difference.
The upper cowl louvers don't seem to help much, and may in fact be counter
productive. We have taped over three of the four openings in each with no
noticeable rise in upper or lower cowl temps. There is little heat source in
the upper cowl area, compared to the lower cowl's exhaust system. Passing air
from the eye ball vents adjacent to the spinner through to the upper cowl
louvers cools an already cool upper cowl area, leaving the lower cowl area to
bake.
One of the largest contributers to lower cowl temperatures seems to be the
exhaust pipe hole in the port side of the lower cowl, and the effects pitch and
yaw have on it., changing it from a lower pressure outlet one moment to a
higher pressure inlet the next. This effect, during the transition from climb
to cruise, causes a rise of 150 deg F in the lower, right cowl area.
Terry Seaver
John Wigney wrote:
> <<< sustained temps of 375 F, with an OAT of about 35 F. It is quite likely
> then that on a hot day our cowl temps are up to 450 F.
>
> Has anyone else noticed excess heat in the lower cowl?
> Any suggestions on what mods to the cowl will get rid of this heat?>>>>
>
> Hi Terry,
>
> Very interesting. I will keep an eye on this problem for my 912S mono XS. I
> have several nylon wire ties and nylon spiral wire loom sleeves on my engine
> but have not seen a problem yet. I did have some corrugated split loom
> sleeve but that was polypropylene and softened rapidly and I have now
> removed all that. On my cowl, I have put in the standard upper NACA carb
> inlet as per the manual. On the lower starboard surface, there is the inlet
> which is designed to feed the 914 engine turbo installation. I just opened
> this up so that air blows into the lower engine bay. I had thought that this
> may be a drag item and considered fairing it over later but will consider
> that change more carefully now. What have you done with that lower inlet on
> yours ?
>
> There is one item you might consider if you have not already done so. I
> installed my oil cooler in the position as shown in the manual i.e. behind
> the coolant radiator and up to the top surfacer of the duct. I found during
> my initial engine power runs on the ground that I was getting overheating
> and on checking around other owners and with Europa head office found that
> many builders have lowered the oil cooler with longer bolts and spacers to
> be at the bottom of the duct so that it gets inlet air through the gap
> between the radiator and cowl inner surface. This seems pretty obvious but I
> just followed the book ! Since OAT's here in North Carolina are low at the
> moment and cooling is much better in flight, I do not have a problem now but
> intend to do that mod later. Anyway, during these discussions, a builder in
> Florida with a lot of flight time mentioned that it is important to provide
> additional area for air to exit the cowling since the upper shark gill
> exits are inadequate. He recommended that the upper surface of the aluminum
> cooling duct be cut away behind the oil cooler. This gives a greater exit
> area for the hot air to depart the engine bay and is a mod I intend to carry
> out.
>
> Any comments ?
>
> Cheers, John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Iddon" <riddon(at)btinternet.com> |
Hello the Oracle,
I've just attempted to surface fill my first flying surface with factory
supplied Expancell and have a couple of questions.
1). How do I judge the consistency of the mix, is it too wet if there is
'moisture' visible on the surface?
2). How thick should I layer the filler on? If my layup is fairly smooth &
flat, do I need just enough to fill the weave or thick enough so I can't see
through the fill and then sand back?
3). Any tips for getting a smooth, even finish?
Any other tips would be appreciated.
Richard Iddon (still waiting for my wings)533
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Nigel.
Obviously you weren't to know but our clamps don't depend on deformation of
any tubes but since the TP12 and TP9 bushes are a very close fit to the TP4
it's concievable that the clamps will apply some compression through the TP
12 and TP9 locations on their full circumferences to the TP4
circumference,hence the 4.7" of circumferential grip. Similarly in the
middle of each clamp there is a matching diameter to fit the TP4 tube which
also will be clamped on the full circumference so there will be no
likelyhood of deformation since the clamps will be 1 1/8" diameter at the
ends and a central "land" of 1.5" diameter for the torque tube TP4. The
clamping action will be achieved by a 0.030" gap between the two halves of
each pair of clamps. Hence rotational grip will be applied to all three
locations simultaneously.
Thanks anyway.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
Fillinger
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
.................as long as the bolt SHANK is to act as the shear in both
fore and aft
locations or "double" as you say. If the length isn't sufficient the shear
at the nut end will be taken by the thread .................
Absolutrely right Bob. I don't have my notes to hand, but there is a perfect
AN4 bolt to suite.
........ The clamping action of the
saddles will deplete as it gets further from the bolt...................
Again, absolutely right, but this is intentionally so.
The TP9 / TP12 sleeves can only clamp onto TP4 if they deform (or tend to
deform) SLIGHTLY .
In your "totally surrounded" solution, the clamping force may be so evenly
distributed, that the TP9 TP12 bushes are prevented from distorting and thus
don't clamp onto the TP4 Torque tube. You may find that you need to cut
expansion slots lengthways on the TP9 & TP12 bushes to get them to clamp
properly (and I personally would not do that).
.................... although not having any internal supports to the TP4
Tube......................
TP4 on the other hand, must not be allowed to deform at all - especially in
the area adjacent to the bronze bushes, since this could introduce some
friction in the pitch control. That is why I introduced the supporting
"Discs" .....and would recommend them for your system.
Cheers
Nigel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Miles.
That was the reason for my original request, I've had about a dozen people
communicate with me, not all yet flying, but mine has reached maximum
permissible in 150 hours and doesn't have the Rotax start and stop shudder.
Although it has probably had twice as many landings as in the records!!!!
Your full and final loctite may well be a good remedy but I hope you don't
want it out again in a rush, it took me 4 hours pulling two close fitting
pins out with mole grips yesterday because they were drilled /reamed to fit
so close. Yet you could throw them into the TP12's when dismantled.
The factory suggest it isn't a major problem or epidemic. If you are at
that stage and past the assembly, with the top on leave it. I just want
those with the tops off to make sure they save their time and effort for
better things later.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
Does anyone actually have any statistics of a problem...?
My present solution is carefully preserving the match of the parts, making
sure the pins were a good fit, assembling them with a high strength loctite,
and then flowing in penetrating locktite between TP12 and the torque tube...
I'd rather not have to turn my attention back to it, if it isn't really a
problem.
Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "STOUT, GARRY V, CFABS" <garrys(at)att.com> |
I for one have found no problem after three years and 160 hours in the air.
Garry V. Stout
District Manager, AT&T Business Services
Phone: 813-878-3929 Fax 813-878-5651
*****Please note new e-mail address******
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
Does anyone actually have any statistics of a problem...?
My present solution is carefully preserving the match of the parts, making
sure the pins were a good fit, assembling them with a high strength loctite,
and then flowing in penetrating locktite between TP12 and the torque tube...
I'd rather not have to turn my attention back to it, if it isn't really a
problem.
Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
> PLUS operational forces and 'G' forces and impact momentum etc. when it hits
> the bump stop.
> Regards
> Bob H G-PTAG
As far as operational G-forces, I did a simple test for fun (it's
snowing).
I drilled .063" wall, 4130, telescoping pipe, 1-1/4" O.D. for worse
case than the TP4 torque tube. I drilled neat holes for a long AN-4
bolt, but intentionally with some play in the ass'y so "elongation"
stress will concentrate more so than a correctly tight fit. Installed
in a vise, not real tight, because the bolt ends can just jam in the
jaws. Using a big pipe wrench on the inner pipe and full body weight,
I applied a calculated (actual lever arm) 160 foot-pounds of torque.
Very slight increase in play, I think. Remeasured the holes with the
digital caliper, and worst I can read is .001" elongation, which
calculates to about 1/32" more play at stabilator trailing edge.
Under microscopic inspection, no bolt damage beyond shining of the
cad, and the only visible change to holes is removal of drill marks by
over a ton of compression.
Using a spring-scale, I measured the torque multiplication, control
stick vs. TP4, and it looks about two. But it doesn't matter, as the
equivalent of this test is a 80# pull on the stick. Level, 60-deg.
bank turn is 2G (same trim), and how much tug on Europa stick is
that? So normal-flight stick pressures shouldn't elongate the holes,
even if TP-12 is less than .063" (TP4 is). Similarly, torque applied
by the mass balance weight, such as a real whack in turbulence, may
through inertia give the pins in the torque tube a whack. I wonder if
it could be anything close to the above test, w/o noticing it in the
control stick or bending the balance arm. I still suspect other
culprits.
I don't know if this wuz a proper test, but could have been!
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
Miles McCallum wrote:
>
> > Thicker pins increase bearing surface area slowly.
>
> I would imagine that the solution would be a second set of pins @90 to the
> first set....
You might want to check the archive. Fuzzy memory tells me that the
factory advised the list that the present orientation of the inside
pins was to prevent kinking of the torque tube under max lift loads.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Edward Gladstone <Ted_Gladstone(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | - Foam Carving Tip |
>>
>
> SteveD wrote:-
> - - - - - -
>- - - - So here's the trick. Get a dremel with a round head
>wire brush and the attachment for the dremel that makes it into a mini
>router. Set the depth of the recess move the dremel back and forth and
there
you have it an even recess with the sides beveled ready for a lay-up.
>>
We used an electric soldering iron with a depth stop attached to it with a
Jubilee clip. If you wrap a short length of 15 amp copper wire round
the tip you can bend the other end of the wire to make any shape of rebate
you want.
Ted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! Fred.
It's not the 4130 steel torque tube that's elongating , its the stainless
16gauge thick bush part of the TP12's. Go get your skis out and enjoy
yourself.!
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Tailplanes
> PLUS operational forces and 'G' forces and impact momentum etc. when it
hits
> the bump stop.
> Regards
> Bob H G-PTAG
As far as operational G-forces, I did a simple test for fun (it's
snowing).
I drilled .063" wall, 4130, telescoping pipe, 1-1/4" O.D. for worse
case than the TP4 torque tube. I drilled neat holes for a long AN-4
bolt, but intentionally with some play in the ass'y so "elongation"
stress will concentrate more so than a correctly tight fit. Installed
in a vise, not real tight, because the bolt ends can just jam in the
jaws. Using a big pipe wrench on the inner pipe and full body weight,
I applied a calculated (actual lever arm) 160 foot-pounds of torque.
Very slight increase in play, I think. Remeasured the holes with the
digital caliper, and worst I can read is .001" elongation, which
calculates to about 1/32" more play at stabilator trailing edge.
Under microscopic inspection, no bolt damage beyond shining of the
cad, and the only visible change to holes is removal of drill marks by
over a ton of compression.
Using a spring-scale, I measured the torque multiplication, control
stick vs. TP4, and it looks about two. But it doesn't matter, as the
equivalent of this test is a 80# pull on the stick. Level, 60-deg.
bank turn is 2G (same trim), and how much tug on Europa stick is
that? So normal-flight stick pressures shouldn't elongate the holes,
even if TP-12 is less than .063" (TP4 is). Similarly, torque applied
by the mass balance weight, such as a real whack in turbulence, may
through inertia give the pins in the torque tube a whack. I wonder if
it could be anything close to the above test, w/o noticing it in the
control stick or bending the balance arm. I still suspect other
culprits.
I don't know if this wuz a proper test, but could have been!
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
Hi Richard,
Basically if it goes on easily it is too thin. The consistancy should
look like thick whipped cream but will feel a lot thicker. Make sure
the surfaces are completely clean before attempting to fill as any
grease will cause poor adhesion and dust will cause the filler to dry
out if you have to rework it on the surface.
Ideally, you only want to fill the weave, and you can do just that.
The problem is that if your cores are warped, with ridges and high
spots, it will look unsightly. The filling is a compromise. Get the
best thinest fill you can and still be able to look at the work and be
happy with it. I think that you can put on as much as 1/8 inch at a
time, but that shouldn't be necessary. I am sure someone else will
pipe up if I am wrong.
Don't sand through the weave!!
Happy Filling (if that could be possible)
Eddie
Quoting Richard Iddon :
> Hello the Oracle,
>
> I've just attempted to surface fill my first flying surface with
> factory
> supplied Expancell and have a couple of questions.
>
> 1). How do I judge the consistency of the mix, is it too wet if
there
> is
> 'moisture' visible on the surface?
>
> 2). How thick should I layer the filler on? If my layup is fairly
> smooth &
> flat, do I need just enough to fill the weave or thick enough so I
can't
> see
> through the fill and then sand back?
>
> 3). Any tips for getting a smooth, even finish?
>
> Any other tips would be appreciated.
>
> Richard Iddon (still waiting for my wings)533
>
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
Hi Richard,
I have been fooling around with this a bit of late. I am using Expandcell
mixed with Carbosil in a 4:1 ratio. For Epoxy I am using the West System
resins with the pumps that screw into the top of the cans. I use one pump
of resin and a cooking measure stolen from the kitchen which is a "1/3rd"
cup scoop. I put in on scoop and mix it then add another 1/3 scoop. This
give a pretty dry mix that I squeegee out on a nylon board.
To apply it I put on a really thin layer of epoxy onto the surface and then
put on a good coating of Expancell mixture. To get the thickness even I put
on two nylon lines on the surface stretched out with a weight at each end.
(The nylon line is 40 thou thick "whipper snipper" line.) I then spread
this out with a 150 mm wide plastering knife. I have discovered that it is
far easier to put on too much and sand it back rather than put on second and
third coats.
The above techniques were shown to me my good friend Graham Singleton so I
claim no credit, but I can say that it works pretty well. I think I have
described some of this along with some sanding tips in December, see
http://pma.obtero.net/
Cheers, Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: surface filling
> Hello the Oracle,
>
> I've just attempted to surface fill my first flying surface with factory
> supplied Expancell and have a couple of questions.
>
> 1). How do I judge the consistency of the mix, is it too wet if there is
> 'moisture' visible on the surface?
>
> 2). How thick should I layer the filler on? If my layup is fairly smooth
&
> flat, do I need just enough to fill the weave or thick enough so I can't
see
> through the fill and then sand back?
>
> 3). Any tips for getting a smooth, even finish?
>
> Any other tips would be appreciated.
>
> Richard Iddon (still waiting for my wings)533
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom & Cathy Friedland <tfriedland(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | filler hose aroma |
Andy, John and fellow 'philes:
I put Yankee mogas in the replacement rubber fuel filler hose 17 days
ago. A faint aroma of gas was detected on day 14 and it has increased
daily since to where it is now rather unpleasant. This is about the
same as occurred with the original hose. (1997) I don't know if it is
the different makeup of US fuel but the hose is clearly not usable for
mogas in the states.
Two inch clear polyurethane hose is available but one needs to purchase
in at least 100 foot lengths. It is fuel proof and would give an added
benefit of being able to see the fuel level in the hose.
Tom Friedland A079 XS mono J3300 N96V
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
<000801c19f50$8746f8e0$bafb22d9@concorde>
<002201c19f6a$6b2c4e20$d296fea9@shauns>
<000701c19f89$757c4960$28ffcbc1@onyerbike>
>You might want to check the archive. Fuzzy memory tells me that the
>factory advised the list that the present orientation of the inside
>pins was to prevent kinking of the torque tube under max lift loads.
>
>Regards,
>Fred F.
Fred,
You are right and you jogged my fuzzy as well. The bending load at the
neutral axis is zero, so that's where the pins are placed. It is maximum at
the top and bottom, so don't touch that area at all!
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
>The above techniques were shown to me my good friend Graham Singleton so I
>claim no credit, but I can say that it works pretty well.
Who picked up the idea from our old friend Ron Swinden.
Ron built a nice Europa Classic mono but lost his medical so sold it. The
new guy was delighted with it last time I saw him. Dari?
graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
> Hi! Fred.
> It's not the 4130 steel torque tube that's elongating , its the stainless
> 16gauge thick bush part of the TP12's. Go get your skis out and enjoy
> yourself.!
> Regards
> Bob H G-PTAG
That actually helps me understand it better, Bob. 16 ga. is .060" vs.
.063", though, but can be a bit softer. Being unable to duplicate the
phenomenon by hanging from the end of big-ass pipe wrench, I was
having trouble picturing any reasonable cause. But softer SS would
not have changed the results anywhere near the point of blaming forces
introduced by the control stick in normal flight. Other explanations
are now plausible to me.
Best,
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
Richard Iddon wrote:
> ...
> I've just attempted to surface fill my first flying surface with factory
> supplied Expancell and have a couple of questions.
> ....
No one's mentioned it yet, and I don't get commissions from PolyFiber,
but their SuperFil product is great stuff. With Expancell, a
laminating resin sometimes cures way too slow, clogging sandpaper.
SuperFil is 6-8 hours to sand, cuts quicker, and will be lighter. Mix
ratio is less hassle, and I learned to eye it by volume and color
tint. Even a bad mix ratio seems to make no difference. It adheres
tenaciously to even shiny metal, suggesting it may adhere better to
shiny fiberglass, like between the fiber bundles that can't be
roughened. Expancell can be dissolved by solvent paints if too dry.
The resin ratio also determines its reaction to grit (sanding
scratches) whereas SuperFil seems to care less, and touches up quicker
with finer grit, since it cuts faster. With Expancell unless real
dry, the resin sinks to the bottom of the cup w/o constant stirring;
SuperFil best mixes on a plastic pallet, faster mix and easier then to
apply. Hey, wait...I should get commissions!
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
| From: | Tony Krzyzewski <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
With Expancell unless real
> dry, the resin sinks to the bottom of the cup w/o constant stirring;
> SuperFil best mixes on a plastic pallet, faster mix and easier then to
> apply.
But wait....
Not only that, but it can also be easily applied on top of itself and can also
be applied on top of Smooth Prime primer. It can also be used as a general
filler around the home which helps justify the price to your wife.
Call 0800 92.......
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Iddon" <riddon(at)btinternet.com> |
Further to my surface filling enquiry, where can I obtain Carbosil in the
UK?
Richard Iddon. 533
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
Fred,
Couldn't agree more about SupeFil. I have just used it on all surfaces and
it's wonderful to work with.
The use of a hairdryer to vary the temperature while spreading makes it so
easy to obtain accurate spreading
and preventing little waste. Sticks to anything, water based, safe and easy to
sand.
I ran short of the hardener and so found the back up from the factory with Jon
and Greg was excellent.
Free replacement. U/V Smooth primer is also an easy exercise with a roller!
Hey, wait...I should get commissions too!
Tim
Builder #292
Fred Fillinger wrote:
> Richard Iddon wrote:
> > ...
> > I've just attempted to surface fill my first flying surface with factory
> > supplied Expancell and have a couple of questions.
> > ....
>
> No one's mentioned it yet, and I don't get commissions from PolyFiber,
> but their SuperFil product is great stuff. With Expancell, a
> laminating resin sometimes cures way too slow, clogging sandpaper.
> SuperFil is 6-8 hours to sand, cuts quicker, and will be lighter. Mix
> ratio is less hassle, and I learned to eye it by volume and color
> tint. Even a bad mix ratio seems to make no difference. It adheres
> tenaciously to even shiny metal, suggesting it may adhere better to
> shiny fiberglass, like between the fiber bundles that can't be
> roughened. Expancell can be dissolved by solvent paints if too dry.
> The resin ratio also determines its reaction to grit (sanding
> scratches) whereas SuperFil seems to care less, and touches up quicker
> with finer grit, since it cuts faster. With Expancell unless real
> dry, the resin sinks to the bottom of the cup w/o constant stirring;
> SuperFil best mixes on a plastic pallet, faster mix and easier then to
> apply. Hey, wait...I should get commissions!
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
--
Timothy P Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch,
NEW ZEALAND
Ph. 0064 03 3515166
email ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Mobile 025 2649325
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
Hi! All.
I hesitated to reply but something different to tailplanes to talk about is
a welcome releif.
I'm not on commission either, I'd dump the Expandcell and get onto the
Polyfibre also. It's so easy to work with, it's a dream, everthing Tony says
about it is just fine. Don't offer your wings for a demo though! It took
three days to find the original profile after they had a wing at
Cranfield!!! It was either that or fly in ever decreasing circles!!!......
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: surface filling
With Expancell unless real
> dry, the resin sinks to the bottom of the cup w/o constant stirring;
> SuperFil best mixes on a plastic pallet, faster mix and easier then to
> apply.
But wait....
Not only that, but it can also be easily applied on top of itself and can
also
be applied on top of Smooth Prime primer. It can also be used as a general
filler around the home which helps justify the price to your wife.
Call 0800 92.......
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tony Krzyzewski <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
If you need to build up more than 5mm or so with Supafil go and get yourself
some deck cloth glass fibre. Lay this up over the base Supafil and then
continue filling. Deck cloth weights just over one ounce per sq yard so doesn't
add much weight.
You can also use this technique to create a very light but tough shell over
filled areas. I did this on the sides of the fuselage where I built them up
slightly to create a socket for the wing fairings. A light scrub coat of filler
is all that is required to fill the weave of the deck cloth at the end of the
process. I'll also be doing this on the inboard section of the wings to provide
a bit more protection against feet.
Another tip... Once you think you have your surface looking right then roll on
one coat of smooth prime as a marker coat and have a look at it in good light.
You can apply more Supafil over the smooth prime if you have any patches that
aren't quite right. This technique really shows up any pinholes that may exist
in the filler.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
>Hello the Oracle,
>
>I've just attempted to surface fill my first flying surface with factory
>supplied Expancell and have a couple of questions.
>
>1). How do I judge the consistency of the mix, is it too wet if there is
>'moisture' visible on the surface?
Richard,
A few points.
Cabosil (colloidal silica) is essential. Try this. Make up a stiff batch of
Expancell, then add a little Cabosil. It will now be possible to add a lot
more Ezpancell to get back to the stiff mix. Consistent mix quality is
important but difficult to achieve because you cannot weigh the minute
quantities of Expancell accurately enough. You need to find your own way to
do this.
Much easier to sand off one thick even layer than several variable ones
that are also of variable hardness. The thickness of a nylon trimmer line
is ideal.
I prefer a flexible springy sanding spline. One that will follow the curves
without too much pressure but enough to fetch the high spots down to the
general curve. A 3 foot strip of 3" wide 1/8 2402 was ideal. Two wood
handles at the ends and bond on the abrasive with 3M adhesive.
graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Holes in panel |
> Thanks Andy for this. I have to report that the button pressing wasn't
> altogether right as I received four copies !
The pictures concerned didn't make it onto the Forum. I hope to have them on the
website shortly.
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
<3C47AE6C.8549E431(at)ameritech.net>
>. Sticks to anything, water based, safe and easy to
>sand.
The only problem with Superfil is that you already paid a lot of money for
the Expancell that came with the kit. Did with our kit, anyway. #27
Is Superfil water based? I know Smoothprime is but I didn't think Superfil was.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
Tony Krzyzewski wrote:
> But wait....
>
> Not only that, but it can also be easily applied on top of itself and can also
> be applied on top of Smooth Prime primer. It can also be used as a general
> filler around the home which helps justify the price to your wife.
Wait further, forgot.... For a tiny quantity to finish off small
defects, it's one small blob of tan, mixed with two small blobs of
blue. Try eyeing minute amt's of laminating resin w/o risk of the mix
being forever tacky.
It feathers beautifully when doing such finishing touches in extremely
thin layers. Expancell hardness is a function of how much resin is
used, so if you try to feather mixes of different hardness, the
sandpaper prefers the softer. Cuss words fwg thought of another
overnight cure, if then, in thin layer. If too resiny, then harder
than adjacent areas, cycle repeats.
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
> > Sticks to anything, water based, safe and easy to
> > sand.
>
> The only problem with Superfil is that you already paid a lot of money for
> the Expancell that came with the kit. Did with our kit, anyway. #27
>
> Is Superfil water based? I know Smoothprime is but I didn't think Superfil was.
>
> Graham
Probably paid a lot cause total kit cost, divided by aliquot value of
parts, and we got $5 AN-bolts too? But have to pay for support,
development costs, etc.
Water-based, yeah, no, sort-of. Like epoxies are water clean-up
also. When SuperFil gets really dry after repeat spreads and scrapes
doing finishing touches, I added some drops of rubbing alcohol. Not
supposed to, but hardness/adhesion of final result suggests I got away
with it (tiny areas only).
Regards,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Folks,
been looking into the EFIS/ONE issue again. Greg at blue
mountain says there are a few europa builders actually flying them but
wouldn't let me know who they are.Does anyone know of a fellow europa
builder/owner flying the blue mountain efis?
regards Karim.
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Folks,
there is a brand new 914 engine,0hrs available for sale. The
owner is asking for 10,000 of her majesty's sterling pieces. The engine has
all the latest rotax mods/service bulletins and the warranty that goes with
it.Interested parties should make their intentions known to me.
regards Karim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
No, Superfil is epoxy based, you are correct, and Smoothprime is water
based. It has the UV blocker in it too and is great. However it is
bloody expensive. So the idea of putting on more than is necessary is
one that makes me cringe. We have used it and it is good. Actually I
hate filling and sanding, so I delegated the job to my father, who for
some unknown reason, enjoys the challange!!
Then for the paint coat you have a choice of water based paint or
poisonous paint. We initially went for the water based paint, but it
had gotten too cold in the storage area and the polyfiber person
couldn't sell it to us. The contents separate below 10c and cannot be
mixed back in apparently. So we have poisonous paint, I have no
intention of doing the spraying either!!
Have fun
Ed
Quoting Graham Singleton :
> >. Sticks to anything, water based, safe and easy to
> >sand.
>
> The only problem with Superfil is that you already paid a lot of
money
> for
> the Expancell that came with the kit. Did with our kit, anyway. #27
>
> Is Superfil water based? I know Smoothprime is but I didn't think
> Superfil was.
>
> Graham
>
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Parkin" <Mikenjulie.Parkin(at)btopenworld.com> |
To any masochists determined to do their own aircraft finishing.
I have a jig that I made to hold the wings while painting. The device
holds the wing by the centre section and allows easy rotation to give
excellent access for spraying. I have put small wheels on the jig which
allows the whole thing to be moved around easily.
I am quite happy to donate it to the club for the use of members - it
does come to pieces and would fit on a roof rack.
regards,
Mike Parkin No312, G-JULZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
I agree with Fred. The Polyfibre fill does mix and cut effortlessly. this
helps enormously with getting a good result because you do not hesitate to go
that extra mile. It was also lightweight.
I also used the Smoothprime which illiminated the problems of pin holes which
seemed to dominate the group's correspondance at that time. I really did not
experience the problem at all.
Bryan Allsop G BYSA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
Graham,
Sorry, you are correct, regards Superfil is not water based, I was thinking of
the
UV Smooth Primer.
Cheers,
Tim
Graham Singleton wrote:
> >. Sticks to anything, water based, safe and easy to
> >sand.
>
> The only problem with Superfil is that you already paid a lot of money for
> the Expancell that came with the kit. Did with our kit, anyway. #27
>
> Is Superfil water based? I know Smoothprime is but I didn't think Superfil was.
>
> Graham
--
Timothy P Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch,
NEW ZEALAND
Ph. 0064 03 3515166
email ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Mobile 025 2649325
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
Which would substantially weaken the TP tube, the new pins not being through the
anticipated neutral axis.
Duncan mcFadyean
On Thursday, January 17, 2002 3:40 PM, Miles McCallum [SMTP:milesm(at)avnet.co.uk]
wrote:
>
>
> > Thicker pins increase bearing surface area slowly.
>
> I would imagine that the solution would be a second set of pins @90? to the
> first set....
>
> M
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
Fred Fillinger
Actually its double single-shear, with the shear being in the same
tangential direction rather than opposed.
Your solution relies on friction generated (from the tension in the bolt)
over only the small area under the saddle washer. It would reduce the edge
loading on the TP tubes. Given the size of the washer and tension in the
bolt, it would be easy to calculate the % contribution. I suspect not very
great in relation to the bearing strength of the pin/tube interface.
Duncan McFadyean
On Thursday, January 17, 2002 9:17 AM, nigel_graham
[SMTP:nigel_graham(at)intercept.com] wrote:
> Duncan,
>
> I identified this problem some time back.
>
> My solution was to insert into the torque tube, four anodised alloy discs
> 10mm thick, cross drilled and positioned to align with the torque tube
cross
> drills at TP's 9 and 12 and secured in position with Loctite. The purpose
of
> the discs is to prevent the torque tube distorting - the purpose of the
> Loctite is to hold the discs in place during assembly - nothing more.
>
> At each station, two alloy "saddle plates" , inside radius machined to
match
> TP12 & TP9 OD, are bolted in place using AN hardware (replacing the SS
> pins).
>
> This provides a positive clamping to prevent movement, drive is provided
by
> the double shear of the bolts.
>
> Only thing to watch out is the tight clearance between the securing nut
and
> the bulkhead.
>
> This arrangement can be dismantled and re-assembled at will - unlike your
> Loctite solution.
>
> Engineering approval would of course be needed.
>
> Nigel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> ................. I can't see any proven long term alternative to the
> Loctite route and that wouldn't involve potentially protractedPFA
approval.
> Even then, the Loctite bond might be subject to progressive failure.
>
> Duncan McFadyean
>
> by Aviators Network UK - info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
The "few pounds of rotational force" is the weight of the counterbalance
times the length of the arm it sits on. Same difference in trimmed flight
where any air-load eccentricity is reacted by the effect of the trim tabs.
Duncan mcFadyean
On Thursday, January 17, 2002 3:08 AM, Fred Fillinger
[SMTP:fillinger(at)ameritech.net] wrote:
> > In a static situation the tailplanes are counterbalanced by the
> > counterbalance weight, the moments for which are transmitted through
the TP
> > pins. Any g loading increases these loads proportionately.Any shock
loads
> > (counterbalance weight coming up against the upper stop) have a similar
> > magnifying affect.
> >
> > Interesting thread this! No concrete solutions yet though.
> >
> > Duncan McFadyean
>
> I gotta be careful in encroaching on technical details in this group,
> lest others really understand this stuff! No doubt about the banging
> the mass balance weight against stops, nor G-loaded flight. In static
> load, the center of mass of the tailplanes is aft of the hinge line
> (the torque tube), but I figured just a few pounds rotational force.
> In flight, same effect, but plus/minus wherever the center of lift is
> relative to the hinge line. In level cruise flight, the pressure
> distribution is typically graphed for a laminar shape like this is
> supposed to balance out the static aft heaviness. I picture low
> pounds of rotational force on any of the components, until you pull
> G's, where center of lift shifts really fwd (giving you desired stick
> force gradient), and that should stress the parts.
>
> Cruise is where she spends most of the time, and low values of steady
> pressure on the parts shouldn't mash metal, no? That's why I was
> thinking about conditions where the thing is pounded and twisted,
> because that adds the multiplier effect of inertia. I recall the trim
> tab beef-up mod where something was breaking the welds on the tab
> drive pins, blamed on start-up shaking.
>
> As an aside, this relationship of lift-center to hinge line makes
> stabilators a tricky balancing act, and fixed surfaces with elevators
> are an easier out. It's covered in Don Dykins' book on the Europa,
> and a chapter in Horner's book on lift. Stability, stick force
> gradient, and low-speed tail effectiveness are affected too,
> especially in a short-coupled airplane with greatly effective flaps
> (airflow change), making tail area and wing distance further things to
> play with. Or so they say. But in terms of flight characteristics
> Dykins apparently got it right?
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
Taper pins would work until they go loose!
It would then be easy to affect a cure by tightening them some more. Not a
sustainable solution, however.
This assumes that the problem is one of pin/tube-wall bearing failure,
which isn't proven.
Taper pins would also take out any relative non concentricity of the fore
and aft tube holes (generated by mixing up the fitted order of the various
parts) which would result in only one of the holes doing most of the work.
Duncan McFadyean
On Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:12 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO(at)rac.ca]
wrote:
> The subject of the loosening of contact in the tailplane torque
tube
> has been long and profound. I have archived most of the cogent theories
and
> solutions for future phase.
> However, if the discussion still centres around loose pins in
> expanding holes, perhaps it's worth considering the taper pins - how they
> might recover tight contact somehow.
> FergA064
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Tail[planes
> Taper pins would work until they go loose!
> It would then be easy to affect a cure by tightening them some more. Not a
> sustainable solution, however.
> This assumes that the problem is one of pin/tube-wall bearing failure, >
which isn't proven.
>
> Taper pins would also take out any relative non concentricity of the fore
> and aft tube holes (generated by mixing up the fitted order of the various
> parts) which would result in only one of the holes doing most of the work.
>
> Duncan McFadyean
Duncan:
Quite right. I have taken the idea, punched it, kicked it, and
thrown it under the workbench.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
So...
We are back where we started.
Clamping may or may not work. Saddles avoid having to cut the sleeves to
allow effective clamping, but may have too little surface area.
It seems as if the only solution is adhesives.
Shaun
----- Original Message -----
From: "McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Tail[planes
> Taper pins would work until they go loose!
> It would then be easy to affect a cure by tightening them some more. Not a
> sustainable solution, however.
> This assumes that the problem is one of pin/tube-wall bearing failure,
> which isn't proven.
>
> Taper pins would also take out any relative non concentricity of the fore
> and aft tube holes (generated by mixing up the fitted order of the various
> parts) which would result in only one of the holes doing most of the work.
>
> Duncan McFadyean
>
> On Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:12 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO(at)rac.ca]
> wrote:
> > The subject of the loosening of contact in the tailplane torque
> tube
> > has been long and profound. I have archived most of the cogent theories
> and
> > solutions for future phase.
> > However, if the discussion still centres around loose pins in
> > expanding holes, perhaps it's worth considering the taper pins - how
they
> > might recover tight contact somehow.
> > FergA064
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ira Rampil <rampil(at)anesthes.sunysb.edu> |
On 1/18/02 1:55 PM, "KarkelB(at)aol.com" wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> been looking into the EFIS/ONE issue again. Greg at blue
> mountain says there are a few europa builders actually flying them but
> wouldn't let me know who they are.Does anyone know of a fellow europa
> builder/owner flying the blue mountain efis?
>
> regards Karim.
>
Interesting,
When I spoke to Greg last month, nobody had yet interfaced to a Rotax
engine. I would sure like to hear from anyone using or planning to use this
device. I am extending my panel down an extra 1.25 inches to accommodate
the display (e.g., reducing the height of the "electric" subpanel rebate.
Regards,
Ira
A224 now on gear and wings rigged!!! :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Thursby" <athursby(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
>. Sticks to anything, water based, safe and easy to
>sand.
The only problem with Superfil is that you already paid a lot of money for
the Expancell that came with the kit. Did with our kit, anyway. #27
Is Superfil water based? I know Smoothprime is but I didn't think Superfil
was.
Graham
You are correct Graham, Superfill is epoxy based. UV smoothprime is a
waterbased product. They do work very well, and I have contracted for
Poly-fiber. So there! ;-)
Jim Thursby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Thursby" <athursby(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
Hi All,
Somebody asked recently about tail plane pins elongating in flying
aircraft. I was flying a customer's plane for photo sorties at sun&fun 2000
and upon post-flight inspection noticed a 2 / 21/2 inch length of play in
the left hand stab. While flying formation with the plane I had experienced
a slight stick "snatch" that I attributed to turbulence from the lead
aircraft. I was not a happy camper upon discovering what I believe to be the
actual cause. It was fixed and flies happily as we speak. It does happen and
I know of at least one other flying aircraft and three in progress that have
experienced this.
Jim Thursby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom & Cathy Friedland <tfriedland(at)attbi.com> |
So Jim
What are you doing on the one that you are building?
Tom Friedland
Jim Thursby wrote:
> Hi All,
> Somebody asked recently about tail plane pins elongating in flying
> aircraft. I was flying a customer's plane for photo sorties at sun&fun 2000
> and upon post-flight inspection noticed a 2 / 21/2 inch length of play in
> the left hand stab. While flying formation with the plane I had experienced
> a slight stick "snatch" that I attributed to turbulence from the lead
> aircraft. I was not a happy camper upon discovering what I believe to be the
> actual cause. It was fixed and flies happily as we speak. It does happen and
> I know of at least one other flying aircraft and three in progress that have
> experienced this.
>
> Jim Thursby
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Cameron <chris.cameron(at)paradise.net.nz> |
I've just found out that as part of my new job I'll be spending a couple
of months in Liverpool visiting the UK office. I leave New Zealand on
25 Jan and will be in Liverpool until approx 29 Mar. I have to admit to
being a bit vague on English geography, but would be keen to meet any
Europa builders in the area.
Chris Cameron
#386 (ZK-MYN when I actually get a chance to do some work on it!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JW <xs191(at)attbi.com> |
Jim.
Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen you enter this lengthy thread with
an opinion on the fix, or build technique to avoid the problem in the first
place.
Jeff
Jim Thursby wrote:
> Hi All,
> Somebody asked recently about tail plane pins elongating in flying
> aircraft. I was flying a customer's plane for photo sorties at sun&fun 2000
> and upon post-flight inspection noticed a 2 / 21/2 inch length of play in
> the left hand stab. While flying formation with the plane I had experienced
> a slight stick "snatch" that I attributed to turbulence from the lead
> aircraft. I was not a happy camper upon discovering what I believe to be the
> actual cause. It was fixed and flies happily as we speak. It does happen and
> I know of at least one other flying aircraft and three in progress that have
> experienced this.
>
> Jim Thursby
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | pa Mail - holes in panel |
Tis message is really from Andy Draper, Technical Director,
Europa Management (Int'l) Ltd. It refused to post to the
Forum because it contained a picture (see below). I am
reposting it on Andy's behalf.
******************************************************
The following may be of interest to Europa builders who have
yet to build
the instrument panel. Please forgive me if you have seen
this statement
before.
We are working on producing 2mm thick light alloy panels
with the 6 main
instrument holes with the associated mounting holes and
cut-outs for
altimeters and VSI's already cut out. There will probably
also be
cut-outs for the tacho and a 52mm hole, typically for a
boost gauge or
fuel gauge, in the upper right area. An additional hole for
a 1" type
vacuum gauge will be above the centre instrument holes.
Two shapes are likely to be available, one of them suitable
for the
tri-gear where the cut-out in the panel is not necessary.
See the
attachment.
so far we have not had any of these panels made and they
were not going to
be announced until the next newsletter, but as there has
been some
discussion on the subject, it seemed appropriate to let you
know what was
in the pipeline.
We most likely will produce panels for the other areas as
well.
Best regards,
Andy Draper
Technical Director
e-mail andy@europa-aircraft.com
************************************************************
The picture (and this message) can now be seen on the List
Support Website,
htp://www.crix.org.uk , under Miscellaneous.
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
Two new items have been added to the support site.
One is from Ferg Kyle (not one to sit idly by just because
his runway is under six feet of snow ... :-) ) and is a
sketch of the stabilator torque tube assembly which is
currently exercising us.
The other is the message which Andy Draper tried to post on
Wednesday about a new sub-panel Europa are proposing, with
the picture concerned. [The message itself is also being
forwarded to the List.]
For the new items, please see under Miscellaneous on the
support site
http://www.crix.org.uk
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
Forum
| Subject: | List Support Website |
Absolutely perfect! Thanks a million Ferg! (also John for posting it :-)
Now all this discussion of clamps & working in the fuse makes sense!
thanks again,
Pete
A239 (not picked up yet)
-----Original Message-----
Subject: List Support Website
Two new items have been added to the support site.
One is from Ferg Kyle (not one to sit idly by just because
his runway is under six feet of snow ... :-) ) and is a
sketch of the stabilator torque tube assembly which is
currently exercising us.
The other is the message which Andy Draper tried to post on
Wednesday about a new sub-panel Europa are proposing, with
the picture concerned. [The message itself is also being
forwarded to the List.]
For the new items, please see under Miscellaneous on the
support site
http://www.crix.org.uk
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Naylor" <jnaylor(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Europ Rescue Service |
Ever since its creation the Europa club has played a major roll in bringing
the Europa fraternity together. Many builders, flyers, wannabe's and willbe'
s have developed strong friendships through the activities of the club. This
network of friends will undoubtedly grow stronger as more planes fly and the
membership grows, but although the social side of the club is strong not all
Europa flyers can, or even want to get involved with the social events. I
think we need to offer more benefits for being a club member.
I have been on several club fly-outs and fly-ins over the past 5 years and
also done my fair share of solo trips. One thing that is always at the back
of my mind when I leave my home field is how would I get the plane back if I
had a mechanical problem or minor accident while away. Well we all know the
Europa doesn't rely entirely on wings to get around, but trailering may not
always be the most convenient way to recover a poorly, or slightly dented
aeroplane, and not everyone has a trailer anyway. So I thought why not try
to put together a rescue service for club members who have encountered
problems while away from their home base. The thoughts so far, are for the
club to offer assistance, to get your plane back to base. It should be made
clear from the start that this would be get you home assistance, and is not
intended to be a spare parts service for aircraft that are tucked up in bed
at their home base off line due to unavailable parts, although the club is
also considering a spares service to run along side this scheme to help out
in these circumstances.
It would mean the club holding in stock an assortment of parts most likely
to be required in an emergency i.e. propellers, tyres, tubes, petrol pumps
etc. which could be despatched to the stricken member on an overnight parcel
service, or even maybe flown out to them by a volunteer. Parts sent out
would be supplied on the basis that they are returned in original condition,
replaced, or paid for depending on the type of part. Also help with the
recovery by road if necessary and even a bit of technical, moral, and
physical help. The benefits of help from fellow Europa builders familiar
with your plane cannot be understated. A list of inspectors available and
willing to travel, to sign off the repair if necessary could be drawn up and
made available to members. This service need not be restricted to the UK,
international parcel delivery services can be quick and efficient these days
and there is no reason why an international network of 'Rescue Bases' could
not be established with local co-ordinators, which would be a great comfort
to foreign tourists alike.
Like most things, its success would rely on a little help from a lot of
people, your committee devote a lot of time and effort for the benefit of us
all, but for this scheme to be successful it needs input from the members as
well. I have already received a very favourable reaction to the article I
wrote for the club magazine on this subject with several members
volunteering to help.
I know there are many none club members on this list, who are benefiting and
contributing to its success and I am sure they could benefit from being a
club member if services like these are introduced. Let me know what you
think, would it work, would you join the club if there was benefits like
these, what parts should we stock... any ideas. I would like to compile a
list of people willing to help downed Europa's and their pilots. Any help,
from just providing a bit of local knowledge to the whereabouts of an
engineer or where an item can be purchased, right through to hitching up
your trailer and going to the rescue. How many times do you fly off to
another airfield just for the sake of flying, well how about offering to
deliver parts to a downed pilot, much more rewarding than that 20 cup of
tea! Got a spare bedroom at home? well there might be a Europa pilot stuck
at your local airfield one day, give him some help over night, and I bet you
will have a friend for life. Europa's are really spreading their wings now,
so volunteer's in countries other than the UK are especially valuable.
Will you stand up and be counted when someone needs help? You never know it
may be you one day!
Any thoughts, ideas and volunteers, please e-mail me, if we can make a
success of this, the club will have another valuable asset.
Jim Naylor
jnaylor(at)avnet.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Europ Rescue Service |
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
I think that this is an excellent idea, not sure on the logistics
yet, but I am thinking about it.
Perhaps we could gather a list of parts co-odrinators, 24 hour
storage facilities and willing free delivery club members.
One example:-
Any one of the co-ordinators could dispatch parts from any of the
facilities in any country. We would ideally have 24 hour access to the
parts and could use for example a UK co-ordinator to dispatch UK parts
during the day and perhaps a US co-ordinator to dispatch UK parts at
night and vice versa, by contacting the relevent parcel service to go
pick the parts up. To save money, perhaps we could have a loose rota
of people who would be willing to collect the parts themselves and
take them to the relevent airfields in their area in preference to
paying for a parcel company to deliver.
I would be happy help in what ever way I can. The more people we have
involved, the less the burden on the few!
Ideas?
As I am not actually flying yet :-( I cannot be sure exactly what
parts would be needed. Perhaps we should set up a database of
component failures that people have experienced with their Europas and
the cost of the replacement parts. We could include hours flown to
failure just for a more rounded picture.
Regards
Ed
Quoting Jim Naylor :
The thoughts so far, are for
> the
> club to offer assistance, to get your plane back to base. It should
be
> made
> clear from the start that this would be get you home assistance, and
is
> not
> intended to be a spare parts service for aircraft that are tucked up
in
> bed
> at their home base off line due to unavailable parts, although the
club
> is
> also considering a spares service to run along side this scheme to
help
> out
> in these circumstances.
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
>where can I obtain Carbosil
It's Cabosil, and I got mine from my inspector Martin Carolan who is
a professional composite worker and buys it in bulk. I can ask him if
there's a source of small quantities and get back to you.
regards
Rowland
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
I apologise to anyone who tried to access the Europa Club website
Friday night or Saturday morning. I failed to fully comprehend
communications from Aviators Network connected with the move of the
Domain Name Server for europaclub.org.uk, and made an error which
made the Club site unaccessible to anyone coming in via
. Normal service is now resumed, and we hope
that further glitches will be avoided.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
The "few" is actually the "many"!
13 ft.lbs times inertial load factor (3.8g)* = 593 ins.lbs
Times 1.5* = 889 ins.lbs ultimate
Times 1.5* = 1334 ins.lbs ultimate with nominal factor for non-interference
fit/potential for light hammering.
2no. 1/4" pins bearing on 0.063" wall of 1.5" dia tube generates a
bearing pressure of 27,587 psi.
This should be well within the bearing strength of 4130 N.
Hence, in my very first contribution to this thread I caveated my response
that I could not get the tube to fail by means of calculation.
Nevertheless, they do fail and, as Bob Harrison has pointed out, it is not
the 4130 tube that fails. Rather, the stainless tube instead. All we need
to do now is find out what grade it is.
(* Ref. Bruhn "The Analysis of Flight Vehicle Structures", JAR-VLA and
others).
Duncan mcFadyean
On Saturday, January 19, 2002 4:30 AM, Fred Fillinger
[SMTP:fillinger(at)ameritech.net] wrote:
> Indeed true, and I see where I made it sound like the mass balance has
> no effect, but I measured it. It takes only about 13 foot-pounds to
> lift the balance weight. That's about 1/20th of that required to
> elongate
> two 1/4" holes in 4130 at least, to the point of noticeable play, in
> my test. Maybe 13, reflecting inflation, is still a "few?" :-)
>
> Best,
> Fred F.
>
> > The "few pounds of rotational force" is the weight of the
counterbalance
> > times the length of the arm it sits on. Same difference in trimmed
flight
> > where any air-load eccentricity is reacted by the effect of the trim
tabs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Keep it up men! We're all ears.....ugly but helpful.
Ferg
----- Original Message -----
From: "McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Tail[planes
> The "few" is actually the "many"!
> 13 ft.lbs times inertial load factor (3.8g)* = 593 ins.lbs
> Times 1.5* = 889 ins.lbs ultimate>
> Times 1.5* = 1334 ins.lbs ultimate with nominal factor for
non-interference > fit/potential for light hammering.>
> 2no. 1/4" pins bearing on 0.063" wall of 1.5" dia tube generates a
> bearing pressure of 27,587 psi.>
> This should be well within the bearing strength of 4130 N.
> Hence, in my very first contribution to this thread I caveated my response
> that I could not get the tube to fail by means of calculation.
> Nevertheless, they do fail and, as Bob Harrison has pointed out, it is not
> the 4130 tube that fails. Rather, the stainless tube instead. All we need
> to do now is find out what grade it is.>
> (* Ref. Bruhn "The Analysis of Flight Vehicle Structures", JAR-VLA and
> others).>
> Duncan mcFadyean
>
> On Saturday, January 19, 2002 4:30 AM, Fred Fillinger
> [SMTP:fillinger(at)ameritech.net] wrote:
> Indeed true, and I see where I made it sound like the mass balance has
> > no effect, but I measured it. It takes only about 13 foot-pounds to
> > lift the balance weight. That's about 1/20th of that required to
> > elongate two 1/4" holes in 4130 at least, to the point of noticeable
play, in> > my test. Maybe 13, reflecting inflation, is still a "few?" :-)
> > > Best, > Fred F.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
It's curious also that Jim Thursby's post said only one tailplane was
real sloppy, so that would rule out service loads. I looked back at
the manual's method re TP12 where you drill the plastic collars. I
remember doing the plastic all on the bench, and fitting it to TP12
and pins on same bench, not in the airplane. A rat-tail file don't
ream nylon quick at all, I remember, but it kept my titanium drills
that are sharp enough for nasty razor cuts just handling them, out of
those metal holes to preserve tight fit of the pins. .001" of
accidental reaming is trailing-edge play already, and maybe the
increasing slop with flight time is first elongation of the holes in
the nylon spacer?
Can't challenge your calcs for sure, but maybe pulling G's makes the
balance weight heavier, making stick force lighter, so more
aerodynamic load must be built in to counteract - more load on the
pins. The calc I thus did was crude and potentially questionable, but
reflected this, and put the 3.8G load on the pins at more then you,
but seemingly OK.
Cheers,
Fred F.
McFadyean wrote:
>
> The "few" is actually the "many"!
>
> 13 ft.lbs times inertial load factor (3.8g)* = 593 ins.lbs
>
> Times 1.5* = 889 ins.lbs ultimate
>
> Times 1.5* = 1334 ins.lbs ultimate with nominal factor for non-interference
> fit/potential for light hammering.
>
> 2no. 1/4" pins bearing on 0.063" wall of 1.5" dia tube generates a
> bearing pressure of 27,587 psi.
>
> This should be well within the bearing strength of 4130 N.
> Hence, in my very first contribution to this thread I caveated my response
> that I could not get the tube to fail by means of calculation.
>
> Nevertheless, they do fail and, as Bob Harrison has pointed out, it is not
> the 4130 tube that fails. Rather, the stainless tube instead. All we need
> to do now is find out what grade it is.
>
> (* Ref. Bruhn "The Analysis of Flight Vehicle Structures", JAR-VLA and
> others).
>
> Duncan mcFadyean
>
> On Saturday, January 19, 2002 4:30 AM, Fred Fillinger wrote:
> > Indeed true, and I see where I made it sound like the mass balance has
> > no effect, but I measured it. It takes only about 13 foot-pounds to
> > lift the balance weight. That's about 1/20th of that required to
> > elongate
> > two 1/4" holes in 4130 at least, to the point of noticeable play, in
> > my test. Maybe 13, reflecting inflation, is still a "few?" :-)
> >
> > Best,
> > Fred F.
> >
> > > The "few pounds of rotational force" is the weight of the
> counterbalance
> > > times the length of the arm it sits on. Same difference in trimmed
> flight
> > > where any air-load eccentricity is reacted by the effect of the trim
> tabs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Simpson" <dave_simpson(at)londonweb.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Europ Rescue Service |
Jim,
Some nice ideas there.
I'm standing up if you're counting. I live near Luton with two local strips
which are Europable - Graveley, near Stevenage, and Rush Green, near
Hitchin. I have a spare bedroom, workshop in the garden and beer. If
you're compiling a list with contact details, mine are:
01438 768809
01582 429453 evenings
07971 293295 mobile
dave_simpson(at)londonweb.net
Good luck
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Naylor <jnaylor(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: The Europ Rescue Service
> Ever since its creation the Europa club has played a major roll in
bringing
> the Europa fraternity together. Many builders, flyers, wannabe's and
willbe'
> s have developed strong friendships through the activities of the club.
This
> network of friends will undoubtedly grow stronger as more planes fly and
the
> membership grows, but although the social side of the club is strong not
all
> Europa flyers can, or even want to get involved with the social events. I
> think we need to offer more benefits for being a club member.
> I have been on several club fly-outs and fly-ins over the past 5 years and
> also done my fair share of solo trips. One thing that is always at the
back
> of my mind when I leave my home field is how would I get the plane back if
I
> had a mechanical problem or minor accident while away. Well we all know
the
> Europa doesn't rely entirely on wings to get around, but trailering may
not
> always be the most convenient way to recover a poorly, or slightly dented
> aeroplane, and not everyone has a trailer anyway. So I thought why not
try
> to put together a rescue service for club members who have encountered
> problems while away from their home base. The thoughts so far, are for
the
> club to offer assistance, to get your plane back to base. It should be
made
> clear from the start that this would be get you home assistance, and is
not
> intended to be a spare parts service for aircraft that are tucked up in
bed
> at their home base off line due to unavailable parts, although the club is
> also considering a spares service to run along side this scheme to help
out
> in these circumstances.
> It would mean the club holding in stock an assortment of parts most likely
> to be required in an emergency i.e. propellers, tyres, tubes, petrol pumps
> etc. which could be despatched to the stricken member on an overnight
parcel
> service, or even maybe flown out to them by a volunteer. Parts sent out
> would be supplied on the basis that they are returned in original
condition,
> replaced, or paid for depending on the type of part. Also help with the
> recovery by road if necessary and even a bit of technical, moral, and
> physical help. The benefits of help from fellow Europa builders familiar
> with your plane cannot be understated. A list of inspectors available and
> willing to travel, to sign off the repair if necessary could be drawn up
and
> made available to members. This service need not be restricted to the UK,
> international parcel delivery services can be quick and efficient these
days
> and there is no reason why an international network of 'Rescue Bases'
could
> not be established with local co-ordinators, which would be a great
comfort
> to foreign tourists alike.
> Like most things, its success would rely on a little help from a lot of
> people, your committee devote a lot of time and effort for the benefit of
us
> all, but for this scheme to be successful it needs input from the members
as
> well. I have already received a very favourable reaction to the article I
> wrote for the club magazine on this subject with several members
> volunteering to help.
> I know there are many none club members on this list, who are benefiting
and
> contributing to its success and I am sure they could benefit from being a
> club member if services like these are introduced. Let me know what you
> think, would it work, would you join the club if there was benefits like
> these, what parts should we stock... any ideas. I would like to compile a
> list of people willing to help downed Europa's and their pilots. Any help,
> from just providing a bit of local knowledge to the whereabouts of an
> engineer or where an item can be purchased, right through to hitching up
> your trailer and going to the rescue. How many times do you fly off to
> another airfield just for the sake of flying, well how about offering to
> deliver parts to a downed pilot, much more rewarding than that 20 cup of
> tea! Got a spare bedroom at home? well there might be a Europa pilot stuck
> at your local airfield one day, give him some help over night, and I bet
you
> will have a friend for life. Europa's are really spreading their wings
now,
> so volunteer's in countries other than the UK are especially valuable.
> Will you stand up and be counted when someone needs help? You never know
it
> may be you one day!
> Any thoughts, ideas and volunteers, please e-mail me, if we can make a
> success of this, the club will have another valuable asset.
>
> Jim Naylor
> jnaylor(at)avnet.co.uk
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
Okay, so I am getting a little concerned now. If what I hear is
correct, the inflight loads on the tail planes is not enough force to
cause the the elongation of the holes in the TP12. That would make
sense. So the primary cause is probably the fact the tail planes are
not balanced with relation to the tube position (hence the large mass
balance), and as a result, the vibration of running over rough ground
and engine/prop inbalance causes the tail planes to shake up and down.
This would cause large forces on the pin hole positions on TP12
causing elongation.
Would the act if decreasing the weight in the mass balance, and
inserting lead into the leading edge of the tail planes to retain the
balance not cure this problem. If the tail plane was more balanced
within itself, the forces on the pins would surely be decreased. I
know that this would add overall weight as the moment arm within the
limits of the tail plane is shorter than the mass balance but
hopefully it would improve the situation. Perhaps?
Any thoughts
Eddie
Quoting Fred Fillinger :
> It's curious also that Jim Thursby's post said only one tailplane
was
> real sloppy, so that would rule out service loads. I looked back at
> the manual's method re TP12 where you drill the plastic collars. I
> remember doing the plastic all on the bench, and fitting it to TP12
> and pins on same bench, not in the airplane. A rat-tail file don't
> ream nylon quick at all, I remember, but it kept my titanium drills
> that are sharp enough for nasty razor cuts just handling them, out
of
> those metal holes to preserve tight fit of the pins. .001" of
> accidental reaming is trailing-edge play already, and maybe the
> increasing slop with flight time is first elongation of the holes in
> the nylon spacer?
>
> Can't challenge your calcs for sure, but maybe pulling G's makes the
> balance weight heavier, making stick force lighter, so more
> aerodynamic load must be built in to counteract - more load on the
> pins. The calc I thus did was crude and potentially questionable,
but
> reflected this, and put the 3.8G load on the pins at more then you,
> but seemingly OK.
>
> Cheers,
> Fred F.
>
> McFadyean wrote:
> >
> > The "few" is actually the "many"!
> >
> > 13 ft.lbs times inertial load factor (3.8g)* = 593 ins.lbs
> >
> > Times 1.5* = 889 ins.lbs ultimate
> >
> > Times 1.5* = 1334 ins.lbs ultimate with nominal factor for
> non-interference
> > fit/potential for light hammering.
> >
> > 2no. 1/4" pins bearing on 0.063" wall of 1.5" dia tube generates
a
> > bearing pressure of 27,587 psi.
> >
> > This should be well within the bearing strength of 4130 N.
> > Hence, in my very first contribution to this thread I caveated my
> response
> > that I could not get the tube to fail by means of calculation.
> >
> > Nevertheless, they do fail and, as Bob Harrison has pointed out,
it is
> not
> > the 4130 tube that fails. Rather, the stainless tube instead. All
we
> need
> > to do now is find out what grade it is.
> >
> > (* Ref. Bruhn "The Analysis of Flight Vehicle Structures", JAR-VLA
> and
> > others).
> >
> > Duncan mcFadyean
> >
> > On Saturday, January 19, 2002 4:30 AM, Fred Fillinger wrote:
> > > Indeed true, and I see where I made it sound like the mass
balance
> has
> > > no effect, but I measured it. It takes only about 13
foot-pounds
> to
> > > lift the balance weight. That's about 1/20th of that required
to
> > > elongate
> > > two 1/4" holes in 4130 at least, to the point of noticeable
play,
> in
> > > my test. Maybe 13, reflecting inflation, is still a "few?" :-)
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Fred F.
> > >
> > > > The "few pounds of rotational force" is the weight of the
> > counterbalance
> > > > times the length of the arm it sits on. Same difference in
> trimmed
> > flight
> > > > where any air-load eccentricity is reacted by the effect of
the
> trim
> > tabs.
>
> The Europa List is supported by Aviators Network UK -
info(at)avnet.co.uk
>
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
Hi Richard.
I've just completed my stabilizers - now ready for top coat - and it took
much longer time to accomplish than I ever anticipated. Mainly due to
pin-holes which popped up in a mysterious way during sanding. I found that
the thicker the mix - the more pin-holes you get. (Trapped air-bubbels which
won't let go in a thick mix). I'm also using Expancel, and I mix with SP 106
epoxy.
While everybody advocates a thick blend due to the weight issue, I find
nevertheless that a more moderate - or leaner - mix is far better to work
with and leaves no pin-holes at all! I don't think the very small weight
increase incured is of such an importance - than having to spend several
extra weeks of filling and sanding - filling and sanding........... Any
numbers on this, anyone??
Instead of the "fishing line technique" I used series of master strips
spaced equally apart chordwise (by the width of my 14" spatula) and sanded
them spanwise - on a 45 degree pace either way by a 50" long sanding spline,
to almost hitting the glass. Filling between the strips was easy and
subsequent sanding down to the substrate was easily controlled. My spline
has 60 grit paper to realy get the high peeks down, but don't get carried
away though! In due time change to finer grit, and when hitting the glass -
STOPP! The whole procedure could have been done in one go only, but of
coarse the pin-holes are an all different story.....
This procedure was most kindly offered by Nigel Graham on this mail server
som time ago.
Regards,
Hans.#334
----- Original Message -----
| From: | "Richard Iddon" <riddon(at)btinternet.com> |
Subject: surface filling
> Hello the Oracle,
>
> I've just attempted to surface fill my first flying surface with factory
> supplied Expancell and have a couple of questions.
>
> 1). How do I judge the consistency of the mix, is it too wet if there is
> 'moisture' visible on the surface?
>
> 2). How thick should I layer the filler on? If my layup is fairly smooth
&
> flat, do I need just enough to fill the weave or thick enough so I can't
see
> through the fill and then sand back?
>
> 3). Any tips for getting a smooth, even finish?
>
> Any other tips would be appreciated.
>
> Richard Iddon (still waiting for my wings)533
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: surface filling |
| From: | bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk |
I would tend to agree, however, for us with the classic wings , it is
not an acceptable compromise as we have to fill and sand the complete
surface area of our wings too. If we did a wet mix overall, our plane
would be far too heavy, but perhaps with the XS wings, you are allowed
more flexability as most of your filling is done already.
Ed
>
> While everybody advocates a thick blend due to the weight issue, I
> find
> nevertheless that a more moderate - or leaner - mix is far better to
> work
> with and leaves no pin-holes at all! I don't think the very small
> weight
> increase incured is of such an importance - than having to spend
> several
> extra weeks of filling and sanding - filling and
sanding...........
> Any
> numbers on this, anyone??
/////Eddie Hatcher Bill Lams Nick Crisp///////
///SouthEastLondonFlyingGroup/////////////////
www.crispsite.flyer.co.uk/newropa.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Europ Rescue Service |
> Jim,
>
> Some nice ideas there.
>
> I'm standing up if you're counting. I live near Luton with two local
strips
> which are Europable - Graveley, near Stevenage, and Rush Green, near
> Hitchin. I have a spare bedroom, workshop in the garden and beer. If
> you're compiling a list with contact details, mine are:
>
> 01438 768809
> 01582 429453 evenings
> 07971 293295 mobile
> dave_simpson(at)londonweb.net
Dave,
You should be careful what you say here... if you've got the beer, I might
fake the faulty fuel pump! :)
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - 07050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clevelee(at)cswebmail.com |
I've explored taper pins today, and IMHO to be effective they would need two conditions:
1) Through TP4 tube alignment with each other - otherwise shear forces
would tend to 'tilt' them given their limited surface bearing area and 2) a
method for preventing outward movement, which could theoretically have a threaded
adjustment to tighten inward pressure as the holes wore. Both are significant
challenges and am therefore passing on this solution.
I'm also personally uncomfortable with bonding in the event of the need for future
removal.
AS the top of my fuselage is not on yet, I've cut my cables today and have started
removal of the clevis pins.
I am proceeding with the replacement of the Clevis pins using 5/16" diameter bolts
passing through the male side of a 303 Stainless machined swivel washer.
The machined piece is 5/16" ID x 1/2" OD x .188" thick. This piece basically looks
like a machined spacer, but has a radius on the outside circumference on
one side.
I will open the TP10 plastic sleeve Clevis pin hole to 1/2" (the od of the washer)
The washer sits in the hole perfectly, as the thickness is exactly the same
height as the thickness of the TP10 plastic sleeve. There will be one on each
side, with the radiused side of the spacer facing inward (minimal surface
area against the TP5 tube.) The holes in TP5 and the TP4 tube will be reamed
to perfectly fit the 5/16" bolt. Upon tightening, point pressure will be created
on the edges of the hole, creating a friction fit between TP5's and TP4's.
The additional larger bearing area of the 5/16" bolt will also improve resistance
to wear. Future disassembly may require some tapping to slide the parts
apart, but will not require any heat. Future tightening of the bolts may postpone
the need for repair.
The new 1/2" hole size in the plastic sleeve is not important, so long as the position
remains concentric with the original position, thereby maintaining part
spacing between the bearings. The larger diameter will again also resist wear.
The only drawback is that the ID of the washer is .010" larger than the dia of
the bolt. But if the TP 10 sleeve is positioned properly while tightening the
bolts, there should be no problem. Worst case is .010 side to side slop - pretty
reasonable.
The washers are available from Berg (a precision mechanical components catalog
house in the US) Berg's number is 800-232-BERG (2374) Outside the U.S. 516-596-1700.
You can ask them to fax you a copy of the catalog page with Swivel Washers
on it. The part is part no PC6-6.
Comments?
Cleve Lee
A198 Mono XS
Detroit, MI
On Fri, 18 January 2002, "Shaun Simpkins" wrote:
>
> So...
> We are back where we started.
> Clamping may or may not work. Saddles avoid having to cut the sleeves to
> allow effective clamping, but may have too little surface area.
> It seems as if the only solution is adhesives.
>
> Shaun
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: RE: Tail[planes
>
>
> > Taper pins would work until they go loose!
> > It would then be easy to affect a cure by tightening them some more. Not a
> > sustainable solution, however.
> > This assumes that the problem is one of pin/tube-wall bearing failure,
> > which isn't proven.
> >
> > Taper pins would also take out any relative non concentricity of the fore
> > and aft tube holes (generated by mixing up the fitted order of the various
> > parts) which would result in only one of the holes doing most of the work.
> >
> > Duncan McFadyean
> >
> > On Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:12 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO(at)rac.ca]
> > wrote:
> > > The subject of the loosening of contact in the tailplane torque
> > tube
> > > has been long and profound. I have archived most of the cogent theories
> > and
> > > solutions for future phase.
> > > However, if the discussion still centres around loose pins in
> > > expanding holes, perhaps it's worth considering the taper pins - how
> they
> > > might recover tight contact somehow.
> > > FergA064
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
I was suggesting was that the method per manual of drilling the
plastic spacers is prone to enlarge the holes. That causes play, and
with smaller contact area of pin against tubes, high G-loads
concentrate greater stress so as to make them larger - more slop. I
have no experience there, as I didn't to do it their way. Suggest
making the holes (especially second one) by enlarging smaller ones
through trial and error, not drilling through the holes at TP12.
With assured tight fit, the rest I think is academic. The tailplane
is always statically balanced, but I was picturing loads under high-G
acceleration. If you balance a 10' length of 1" PVC pipe in your
hand, and rapidly push upward, what happens at the ends? On the
tailplane, the opposing loads are concentrated at the torque tube,
where the concentric tubes attempt to turn in opposition and bear on
the pins. The only two adverse situations in normal flight I vote for
are hard landings and really bad jolts in turbulence; other loads you
describe I'd guess are on the mild side. Redesigning the mass balance
would help for acro. With the long balance arm, pull high G's on the
stick, and the pins get a real inertial whack when the weight "catches
up" to where you yanked the stick back. Anybody snap rolled one yet?
:-)
Regards,
Fred F.
bizzarro(at)easynet.co.uk wrote:
>
> Okay, so I am getting a little concerned now. If what I hear is
> correct, the inflight loads on the tail planes is not enough force to
> cause the the elongation of the holes in the TP12. That would make
> sense. So the primary cause is probably the fact the tail planes are
> not balanced with relation to the tube position (hence the large mass
> balance), and as a result, the vibration of running over rough ground
> and engine/prop inbalance causes the tail planes to shake up and down.
> This would cause large forces on the pin hole positions on TP12
> causing elongation.
>
> Would the act if decreasing the weight in the mass balance, and
> inserting lead into the leading edge of the tail planes to retain the
> balance not cure this problem. If the tail plane was more balanced
> within itself, the forces on the pins would surely be decreased. I
> know that this would add overall weight as the moment arm within the
> limits of the tail plane is shorter than the mass balance but
> hopefully it would improve the situation. Perhaps?
>
> Any thoughts
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz> |
I have been keeping a low profile (i.e. none!) on the subject of
tailplanes but I will raise one point of concern and then shut up.
The tailplane torque tube is a flight critical part of the aircraft and
is not an area that I would mess around with lightly. Lots of ideas have
been promulgated on the group but how many have been properly analysed
for airworthiness?
Yes, there may be an issue with the arrangement at the present time, but
the factory has already issued a bulletin about it via the newsletter. I
for one am not going to play with the torque tube unless it is a factory
sanctioned modification.
Modifications to the cosmetics of the aircraft are fine but
modifications to the control systems should be treated as if your life
depends on it.... because it does.
I will now crawl back into my workshop with my pieces of sandpaper.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch> |
| Subject: | ing copper to aluminum |
A simple question from a metallurgic ignorant to the experts out there:
I have to bolt the copper ground plane mesh of my ELT antenna to the
aluminum bracket holding the antenna. Is there any risk of corrosion
between the copper of the mesh and the aluminum of the bracket? If yes,
how can I bolt it together, keep the joint conductive and prevent
corrosion? Any answer is appreciated!
Alfred
Monowheel #097
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | pa Tailplane Torque Tube Drive Pins. |
Hi! Guys.
I would like to concur with Tony Krzyzewski, the torque tube is a highly
stressed item and methods of addressing the current problem of wear in these
vexed pins should enable the original
design to remain untouched.
Hence, our clamps which will encompass all bare TP4 tube between the TP12's
and the TP 9 with a 0.030" maximum grip on diameters of the TP12's ,the
central portions of the Torque tube TP4 and the TP9 will not interfere with
the original design and will therefore with the clamping action
reinforce the torque tube against bending stresses and so enhance the
design.
I would appreciate the calculation guru's assisting with some calcs. on
this statement?
Best regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Vowell" <viridian(at)clara.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Sale Due to Emigration - partially completed Tri-Gear Stage 1 kit |
Due to imminent immigration to Canada, the first stage of UK Kit No. 345
is for sale.
The kit has been completed up to page 50 of the manual (cutting trim
tabs) and the WIP has been signed off by Alan Thorne, PFA Engineer. It
was originally intended that the kit be shipped to Canada for onward
completion and is packed as follows:
RH Elevator assembly repacked into orig. foam blocks and corrugated
outer)
LH (ditto)
Rudder assembly (ditto with temporary metal reinforcing strip to
cut-out)
Unused fin foam cores (kit was pre Europa XS, intended to be completed
as XS)
1 bolt glass fibre UNI (approx 40%) used
1 bolt glass fibre BID (approx 40%) used
Tail metal work assembly (packed in foam blocks and wrapped)
1 box of other Europa components, resin, hardener adhesives, manuals,
etc.
1 box with containers of flox, lightweight filler, etc
1 box containing bags of finishing filler, etc.
Whilst it may still be possible to continue completion of the kit
(subject to PFA approval) it is more likely that the kit will appeal to
existing Europa owners for spares/damage repair, etc. However, the kit
must be sold in one lot and is therefore offered for a total of 600 -
buyer to collect from Farnham, Surrey.
The following is also offered:
1 sturdy and flat, workbench top 8=9200" x 2=920" made of 25mm MDF -
30
1 bottle of 'Alodyne' - unused - 10
Those interested please contact Chris Vowell at viridian(at)clara.co.uk or
phone 07973 179040
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
We have a large mass on the end of an arm of quite some length and we have
material deformation which defies conventional calculation. Could we be looking
at a resonance effect in some flight or ground regime (and if that were the case
could the number of other variables between individual a/c explain why some are
affected and some are not) ?
John Cliff
#0251
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
We are planning to move this forum to the new software on the server on 1st
February.
Until then, if you receive any strange messages about your posting being stalled
or other unexpected happenings with the mechanics, please ignore them (If you
have the time, I would appreciate you letting me know you have received them.)
John Cliff
Europa Club List Forum minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolting copper to aluminum |
Alfred --
Copper is next to stainless steel on the galvanic chart, and we use SS
hardware on ali without concern. It would take many years for the
corrosion to insulate the ground plane, and the antenna would still
work almost as well through capacitive coupling. It just couldn't
handle high xmit currents, which ELT's don't have. I see no problem.
Regards,
Fred F.
Alfred Buess wrote:
>
> A simple question from a metallurgic ignorant to the experts out there:
> I have to bolt the copper ground plane mesh of my ELT antenna to the aluminum
bracket holding the antenna. Is there any risk of corrosion between the copper
of the mesh and the aluminum of the bracket? If yes, how can I bolt it together,
keep the joint conductive and prevent corrosion? Any answer is appreciated!
>
> Alfred
> Monowheel #097
>
>
> vCard Bu privat.VCFName: vCard Bu privat.VCF
> Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | tion of the year |
>>>>>>>Anybody snap rolled one yet?<<<<<<<<<<<<
......and lived?
Don't do that.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Naylor" <jnaylor(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Europa Rescue Service |
I have had a tremendous response to the proposed Rescue Service. Without
exception, every reply has been positive and enthusiastic, we now have
offers of help from France, Germany, Denmark and all over the UK. Offers of
recovery by trailer, members flying parts out to stricken pilots abroad,
beds for stranded pilots & passengers, help with repairs, workshop
facilities,
Hangarage, loan of parts, food, and even beer! Great, keep it coming
especially you people abroad and in the not so populated areas, remember,
there is plenty of help for pilots visiting Britain, but not much help in
other countries . Volunteer's in other countries are therefore very special,
this can be an international service.
More ideas for the service are needed, so I would like to throw it open on
the forum now for discussion to generate some more response. So please post
any further responses on the forum so that we can all join in, add to the
ideas and appreciate the spirit of those offering there services. On the
other hand, if you would prefer, you can of cause still e-mail me direct.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Bolting copper to aluminum |
I manufacture parts that require plating of a sandwich of copper between
aluminum, and I can assure you that it takes only minutes for the aluminum
adjacent to the copper to be attacked in a copper sulfate plating bath with
no imposed current flowing. It is essential to immerse the parts with the
plating current on in order to protect the aluminum from pitting. True, in
an aircraft you are unlikely to fly through an acidic solution but any
electrolyte will cause similar pitting, just more slowly.
I would suggest installing a disposable aluminum spacer between the copper
and the aluminum bracket, and to use stainless steel fasteners.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Re: Bolting copper to aluminum
Alfred --
Copper is next to stainless steel on the galvanic chart, and we use SS
hardware on ali without concern. It would take many years for the
corrosion to insulate the ground plane, and the antenna would still
work almost as well through capacitive coupling. It just couldn't
handle high xmit currents, which ELT's don't have. I see no problem.
Regards,
Fred F.
Alfred Buess wrote:
>
> A simple question from a metallurgic ignorant to the experts out there:
> I have to bolt the copper ground plane mesh of my ELT antenna to the
aluminum bracket holding the antenna. Is there any risk of corrosion between
the copper of the mesh and the aluminum of the bracket? If yes, how can I
bolt it together, keep the joint conductive and prevent corrosion? Any
answer is appreciated!
>
> Alfred
> Monowheel #097
>
>
> vCard Bu privat.VCFName: vCard Bu privat.VCF
> Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <john(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
A couple of days ago I posted a picture of the instrument sub-panel being
proposed by the factory. Another picture is now available, of the Tri-gear
variant of this sub-panel.
See the Instrument Sub-panel heading under Miscellaneous at
http://www.crix.org.uk
John Cliff
Europa Club List Support minder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | en property - can anyone help? |
Copied to the forum from a message received by the Europa Club
Membership Secretary:
From: "Fairall, Bob" <B_Fairall(at)FAIRALLS.co.uk>
>Subject: To all the Flying Folk I know - please help
>Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:23:06 -0000
>
>Yesterday (Friday 18th January 2002) evening at 5:00pm my car was
>broken into while parked in my company's staff car park in Godstone,
>Surrey and my flight bag was stolen.
>
>There were a number of items of significant monetary value in the
>bag, an Icom transceiver, small hand held GPS and a Tron ELB ( LATCC
>West Drayton and Kinloss have been informed ! ) but, worst of all,
>the bag also contained my flying licences, ratings, personal log
>books and the tech logs for Europa G-BXLK and Gazelle helicopter
>G-GZLE.
>
>It seems possible that those who carried out the theft might try to
>sell what they consider to be of realisable value, that being the
>transceiver, etc. Should you hear of such items being sold 'on the
>cheap' maybe you would let me know on 07973 408329 or your local
>police station quoting crime reference ES 02705.
>
>Needless to say that while I would very much like to retrieve the
>items of monetary value, the real focus of my appeal is to recover
>the important documents mentioned above.
>
>If you have time to pass this appeal on to other 'flying types' I
>would be most grateful.
>
>Thanking everyone who receives this for your help.
>
>Safe flying,
>
>Bob Fairall
>
>PS Anyone who provides a lead which results in recovery of the above
>will be welcome to either a ride in a Europa or a Gazelle (assuming
>that's legal, which I believe it is)
Hope someone can help Bob get his stuff back! Sorry for the delay in
posting this here, I only just realized that I'd only received one
copy, direct to me.
regards
Rowland
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI PFA #16532 EAA #168386
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steven Pitt" <Steven.Pitt(at)btinternet.com> |
Dear All,
I am at the fun stage of filling and sanding the fuselage and despite
carefully protecting the ribs of my 'dolly' I keep on ending up with
creases in the fuselage, each of which will need repairing.
Does anyone have access to a fuselage stand (similar to Aircraft Spruce)
so that I can attach the engine frame, jack the tail and spin the
fuselage for ease of filling etc.
As a separate idea, has anyone made a stand and has the dimensions,
drawings etc.
Your assistance is as ever gratefully received.
Steve Pitt #403
PS Isn't it cold back here in England, and windy and miserable too!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
Martin Carolan tells me that SP Systems on the Isle of Wight supply
small quantities of Aerosil or Cabosil. They have various retail
outlets around the UK and he uses a company called Marineware in
Southampton.
I should have thought of that myself as I bought my peel-ply & other
stuff from Marineware. The catalogue I have lists it as colloidal
silica, available in 1 litre packs at UK pounds 2.87 (but the minimum
order of this size is 5 packs), or a 5 litre pack at UK pounds 4.41.
(And much larger sizes for the more ambitious!)
Incidentally (at the risk of upsetting the Europa factory), I must
say I much prefer the SP mixing cups as supplied by Marineware - they
are tougher and cheaper than the ones Europa supply! Also, I keep a
sample of the mix from each layup for Martin's inspection, and I find
that after curing it just pops out of the SP cup, whereas I usually
have to destroy the Europa cup to get my sample out.
Phone Marineware on 023 8033 0208, fax on 023 8033 9667, or e-mail
.
You can also check out info direct from SP Systems on their website -
see the link on the Europa Club website .
regards
Rowland
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)ukonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Question of the year |
Hi! All.
Ivan Shaw did a hesitation roll within my demonstration ,which with the way
he snatched the control stick at the start and completion of each quadrant
of the roll I would say was snatched.!
I was ready for "pewkin" after 20 minutes anyway ,the flight also included a
loop or two. I'm not so sure I'd be party to it again now I'm a bit more
"grown up" in these matters!! However I'm still around to tell the tale.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa(at)post.aviators.net
Subject: Question of the year
>>>>>>>Anybody snap rolled one yet?<<<<<<<<<<<<
......and lived?
Don't do that.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | svein johnsen <svein_johnsen(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | ing - Weight Increase |
All,
Recently a message was posted regarding filling and
the difficulty of getting rid of the pin holes unless
one used a more wet Expancell mix, even though this
might add a little weight. But how much will be
added?
I did a quick measurement this afternoon of the
specific gravity of wet Expancell (like a medium thick
syrup, running fairly easily) and "dry" (almost
standing up on the mixing stick) mixed into Aeropoxy:
- Aeropoxy with hardener only: Sp. g. 1.11
gram/cu.cm.
- Wet Expancell mix: Sp. g. 0.62
- Dry Expancell mix: Sp. g. 0.47
Assuming that the wet mix is used instead of the dry
mix in a 1 mm thick layer(comparison for those not
intimate with metric units: the skin of the flaps is
0.8-0.9 mm thick), and further considering this
applied on the rudder, stabilizer/trim tabs, ailerons
and flaps, the total weight difference is approx. 1.25
kg or 2.8 lbs.
The real weight increase would probably be even less
due to thinner layer than 1 mm required to avoid the
pin holes and also a drier (lighter) mix could perhaps
be used than the "wet" used in the above example.
Of course bad to carry all this weight forever
after, but if I am able to get in the air earlier - -
-
Happy filling!
Svein #A225
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Simpson" <dave_simpson(at)londonweb.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolting copper to aluminum |
Copper and aluminium react electrolytically quite readily. The normal
solution to this problem where large currents are not involved, (and they
aren't in your receiving antenna application) is to coat the aluminium with
alcromate which is conductive, apply some grease to the interface and bolt
it up tight. You must keep out moisture to prevent electroytic corrosion, so
if it doesn't need to be dismantled very often, paint the whole thing.
Dave Simpson
----- Original Message -----
From: Alfred Buess <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch>
Subject: Bolting copper to aluminum
A simple question from a metallurgic ignorant to the experts out there:
I have to bolt the copper ground plane mesh of my ELT antenna to the
aluminum bracket holding the antenna. Is there any risk of corrosion between
the copper of the mesh and the aluminum of the bracket? If yes, how can I
bolt it together, keep the joint conductive and prevent corrosion? Any
answer is appreciated!
Alfred
Monowheel #097
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kesterton, Donald" <KestertonD(at)logica.com> |
Steven,
We made up a fuselage spit based on a modified engine stand. It bolts to the
engine mount via a car prop shaft universal joint so not only can you rotate
the fuselage but you can move the tail up and down as well!
Don't have any drawings, but would be happy to talk you through the design
or show it to you. We are based in the Milton Keynes area of the UK
Donald Kesterton
Builder 216
Tel 01908 472434
-----Original Message-----
Subject: fuselage stands
Dear All,
I am at the fun stage of filling and sanding the fuselage and despite
carefully protecting the ribs of my 'dolly' I keep on ending up with creases
in the fuselage, each of which will need repairing.
Does anyone have access to a fuselage stand (similar to Aircraft Spruce) so
that I can attach the engine frame, jack the tail and spin the fuselage for
ease of filling etc.
As a separate idea, has anyone made a stand and has the dimensions, drawings
etc.
Your assistance is as ever gratefully received.
Steve Pitt #403
PS Isn't it cold back here in England, and windy and miserable too!
This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s)
only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or
be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied, disclosed to, retained
or used by, any other party. If you are not an intended recipient then please
promptly delete this e-mail and any attachment and all copies and inform the
sender. Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Naylor" <jnaylor(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Europa Rescue Service |
I have had a tremendous response to the proposed Rescue Service. Without
exception, every reply has been positive and enthusiastic, we now have
offers of help from France, Germany, Denmark and all over the UK. Offers of
recovery by trailer, members flying parts out to stricken pilots abroad,
beds for stranded pilots & passengers, help with repairs, workshop
facilities,
Hangarage, loan of parts, food, and even beer! Great, keep it coming
especially you people abroad and in the not so populated areas, remember,
there is plenty of help for pilots visiting Britain, but not much help in
other countries . Volunteer's in other countries are therefore very special,
this can be an international service.
More ideas for the service are needed, so I would like to throw it open on
the forum now for discussion to generate some more response. So please post
any further responses on the forum so that we can all join in, add to the
ideas and appreciate the spirit of those offering there services. On the
other hand, if you would prefer, you can of cause still e-mail me direct.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuselage stands |
>Dear All,
>I am at the fun stage of filling and sanding the fuselage and despite
carefully protecting the ribs of my 'dolly' I keep on ending up with creases
in the fuselage, each of which will need repairing.
>Does anyone have access to a fuselage stand (similar to Aircraft Spruce) so
that I can attach the engine frame, jack the tail and spin the fuselage for
ease of filling etc.
>As a separate idea, has anyone made a stand and has the dimensions,
drawings etc.
>Your assistance is as ever gratefully received.
>Steve Pitt #403
>PS Isn't it cold back here in England, and windy and miserable too!
Hi Steve,
You could use an engine stand for the front end (I did before I made my
current stand) which is available from Screw Fix
(http://www.screwfix.com/product.phtml?7305). It will let you rotate what
ever you bolt to it by 360 degree's. Then you've only got to figure out the
back end.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________
Mark Jackson - 07050 645590
europa-builder(at)ntlworld.com
http://harley.pcl.ox.ac.uk/~mark/Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Fillinger <fillinger(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolting copper to aluminum |
Reactivity varies widely according to aluminum type and degree of
oxidation, but for other than an ELT antenna, I actually do think
copper against aluminum should not be used, Dave. Maybe thin sheet
steel soldered to the copper mesh would be best.
For an ELT, the reason it's unimportant is that the ground plane helps
accomplish an ideal radiating pattern (gain). However, where the
plane doesn't crash with antenna pointed upward, it's all moot. In
fact for for SAR, a strong signal, aggravated by terrain effect and
poor orientation, can place the center of signal strength far from
where you really are. 160mW will xmit clearly for many, many miles,
and I've read that SAR people will offtune to 121.525 or such if
necessary. Nowadays, a handheld transceiver to assure ability to hail
overhead A/C plus handheld GPS assures the fastest rescue. Even a
cell phone increasingly has a chance in remote areas.
In US accident reports, it's hard to find one clear case annually
where the ELT resulted in a "save." What they do accomplish is
reduced taxpayer cost to timely locate the site of a fatal crash, to
reduce family members' pain and perform a probable cause
investigation. Still where a flight plan was filed, they can locate
A/C whose ELT never went off.
Regards,
Fred F.
Dave Simpson wrote:
>
> Copper and aluminium react electrolytically quite readily. The normal
> solution to this problem where large currents are not involved, (and they
> aren't in your receiving antenna application) is to coat the aluminium with
> alcromate which is conductive, apply some grease to the interface and bolt
> it up tight. You must keep out moisture to prevent electroytic corrosion, so
> if it doesn't need to be dismantled very often, paint the whole thing.
>
> Dave Simpson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alfred Buess <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch>
> Subject: Bolting copper to aluminum
>
> A simple question from a metallurgic ignorant to the experts out there:
> I have to bolt the copper ground plane mesh of my ELT antenna to the
January 07, 2002 - January 21, 2002
Europa-Archive.digest.vol-ce