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Europa-Archive.digest.vol-gh
July 01, 2007 - July 15, 2007

>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Raimo >>>> the best filter imho is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check for >>>> contamination before every flight, which used to be routine. >>>> I do not like the Purolator filters. Easily broken, easily assembled >>>> wrong and easily blocked by debrie. >>>> Grahm >>>> >>>> Raimo Toivio wrote: >>>> >>>>> All >>>>> I have in OH-XRT original Purolator-filters as per manual. >>>>> During the very first flight (about 10 hrs) I had an engine quit >>>>> situation /fuel pressure was near 0 and that was at the height of >>>>> 4000 ft - so no dramatic at all. >>>>> Switching reserve and fuel pump and Rotax was happy again. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This message has been scanned for viruses and >>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >>> believed to be clean. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Fred, The purolator filters do work and it is worth sticking with them. I had exactly the problems recorded elsewhere on the list and having read about the issue before first flight I ensured that I bought a stack of refills before we got going. Yes the filters clogged in the test flying despite all the preflight flushing I had done. Over the first 25 hours the filters got cleaner and cleaner (or at least did not clog as quickly). Now upto 50 hours and I have replaced the filters again but only for sense rather than as they were blocked. I had used the same filters for the last 15 hours without a problem. My Test Pilot advised to keep the reserve filter unused (don't taxi with the reserve line on, as per the manual) and then you know you have a clean source of fuel if needed. I have only once had to change to the reserve and that was in the first 10 hours when the debris was still being removed. I hope this helps. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Jul 01, 2007
There has been written a lot, and there has been fuel starvation maybe even more. So it's difficult not to start repeating the same writeups and mistakes. The tank material is very static. I saw a dog hair jumping to it over 10 cm. Compressed air will make it more static. Nev told me to use washing machine soap, and i rinsed with that. I went for an Andair 325 gascolator, for several reasons: The filter surface is huge, the larger parts will sink in the bowl and not clog precious filter surface, the filter has quite a different colour then swarf from the tank. I've filled the tank for 95%, driven the plane on the trailer for 400 miles (up and down to the painter,not just for filter testing:-)) with a fuel pump running (914, no restrictor) in which 480 liters or 7xtimes the contents of the tank have passed the filter. 4 hrs engine run and taxiing. Checked the filter. The filter surface was 95 % free. Hardly any tank swarf, some rust particles, some unrecognised stuff and one dog hair. Now that test flights may begin, i will swap the filter again after every hour of flight for the first 10 hours! Better be warned then sorry or how was that saying again?. Regards, Jos Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "karelvranken" <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Tailplane Recess
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Graham, I completely agree with your opinion and I highly estimate Ivan for the dream he gave to me. I hope to show you my Rolls Royce Europa some day. Perhaps in Popham next week-end? When the weather ..... Karel Vranken, # 447 F-PKRL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 2:18 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Recess > > > Karel > yes I do. the engineering could have been done better. We have to remember > though, Ivan was under a lot of pressure to get the whole design finished > and sell some kits to start earning some money. Paying wages for three > years with nothing coming in is quite scary. I have learned to accept Ivan > for his strengths and forgive his shortcomings, without people like Ivan > things like the Europa don't happen.I know I could not have done what he > did, the Europa has given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. The rest of > us can help each other to refine it and make it even more rewarding > Graham ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
It seems that this is an area where gascolators score over fuel filters. Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the chamber and leaves through the top. Before every flight a fuel sample is drained from the gascolator using a standard fuel test tube/ screwdriver. There is usually a small amount of debry in the sample but never very much. If necessary several samples are taken to flush out excessive deposits but this is rarely the case. In the first year the gascolator was dismantled about every ten hours and the gauze filter was found to be dirty but never clogged. It would seem that most of the muck is drained off and never makes it to the filter. One precaution we have always taken is to filter the fuel into the fuel tank using a proprietary filter/ water trap funnel (anti static too). Another thing which may have lessened the dirt problem is that we pre filled the tank prior to installation in the aircraft because the early tanks swelled and caused problems. If there was any debry due to manufacture this would have been removed when the tank was drained. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff B To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 4:08 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters Fred, Steve and all, My experience was slightly different. I used standard auto filters for engine run in and first flight. Tossed them after first hour in the air. Next set was a duplicate of the first. Tossed them after 5 hours. thire set was the same. Replaced them with Europa units at 25 hours. Never had a fuel starvation problem, though the first couple of sets did show some mild restriction. Here's the kicker, after cutting the tank holes, using a standard hole saw, I used compressed air to blow out the tank and that was it. Never experienced any swarf problem. Go figure... Jeff - Baby Blue 299 hours and going to put #300 on it today, before trailering her home for her 2nd annual. How times flies (forgive the pun)... Steve Hagar wrote: Fred: No matter how good you clean your tank and system you can't clean it good enough. I spent days and days. Soap, water. multiple flushes with gasoline, compressed air, vacuuming etc. I felt fat and happy also with my process, nothing remotely visible or blowing around inside the tank. Several hours of taxi and runup, compass swing time etc. before first flight The engine burbled on the go part on a touch and go and the plane ended up in a big mud puddle off the end of the runway just short of the airport boundary and a 4 lane toroughfare. This happened at about 4 hours flight time. Solution: 2 BIG disposable automotive fuel filters downstream of your fuel selector valve. Throw them away before first flight. Fly 2 hours with new ones. Then go for 10. Then you can make believe you are on top of the situation. You can get Fram's at discount stores for about 8 bucks each. They are about 2 inches in diameter and 4 inches or so long, so there is plenty of surface area inside. Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ [Oyou can'triginal Message] From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> Date: 6/29/2007 1:58:41 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters Thanks Terry, As a consequence of previous posts which highlight the problems caused by swarf from the penetrations one makes in the tank(s), I've been particularly careful in this regard. For example, besides using the hole drill by drilling up into the tank which prevents most of the swarf from remaining inside, I've carefully peered into the tank thru the intake hole and the hole made for the Europa fuel gauge and located even the tiniest particles...then...using some reversed duct tape on the end of a small aluminum tube, I've found that I can pick them up with no trouble. I found that the swarf particles were plainly visable against the smoothe tank bottom. When drilling for the intake and vent holes in the long ranger tank, I inserted a cut down 8 oz. paper cup with a bent wire handle thru the large filler hole and placed it under the holes which caught all of the swarf...again, use of the duct tape on a stick allowed me to remove particles down to the size of dust. Now I know we can only strive for perfection, but thanks to being alerted to swarf-in-fuel issues by all who've gone before me, I'm confident (knock on wood) that swarf will not be an issue for me when I finally get this puppy in the air. Since I'm installing Mod 33, I'm tending toward installing line filters rather than a gascolator...and I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. Fred On Friday, June 29, 2007, at 09:31 AM, Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote: Hi Fred, The glass filters supplied with our kit had had some reported problems, plugging up with tank residue (swarf) and with cracks in the glass. It occurred to us that the glass filters would trap and hold tank residue up against the filter material, plugging it up, with gravity helping to hold it there. The Andair gascolator, on the other hand, has a water trap at the bottom of it and a fine mesh screen at the top. Not only does water settle to the bottom, but also particles heavier than gasoline. We did a simple test with fuel tank swarf, and found it was heavier than gas, and settled to the bottom of the gascolator, where it can be drained out on the next pre-flight check for water. Please note that gravity helps keep the particles out of the screen of a gascolator, unlike the glass filters supplied with the kit. Regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters I have never been clear on the difference (if any) between a filter and a gascolator...could someone please enlighten me? Fred On Thursday, June 28, 2007, at 04:27 PM, Graham Singleton wrote: Raimo the best filter imho is an Andair gascolator. Easy to check for contamination before every flight, which used to be routine. I do not like the Purolator filters. Easily broken, easily assembled wrong and easily blocked by debrie. Grahm Raimo Toivio wrote: All I have in OH-XRT original Purolator-filters as per manual. During the very first flight (about 10 hrs) I had an engine quit situation /fuel pressure was near 0 and that was at the height of 4000 ft - so no dramatic at all. Switching reserve and fuel pump and Rotax was happy again. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Subject: Fuel filters
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote: > Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl > and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh > circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of > the chamber and leaves through the top. Carl, I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter" is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model # of what you're using? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Subject: Fuel venting
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
I understand that some builders have vented the tank and the sight gauge to the top of the fuel filler pipe, taking care that the precise location will not allow fuel being added to inadvertantly flow into the vents. What I don't understand is...using the supplied fuel filler cap (which is specifically called out as "non-venting", again in the ACS catalogue)...how such an arrangement in fact can act to vent the fuel system. Can anyone enlighten me? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Sorry, but I dont think it was branded - I bought it from a company called Skycraft here in the UK. I just looked in the 2003-2004 Spruce catalog and there is an ACS Gascolator (Homebuilders Special). Ours looks identical including the mounting bracket. And YES its the one that says not for use with auto fuel !!!! All I can say is that we use exclusively automotive unleaded fuel in ours and have done so for 5 years with no problems. We cant/ dont use leaded or 100LL because the oil we use in our Rotax 912UL is fully synthetic. One thing we would suggest is the fitment of a fuel pressure guage, preferably with an electronic warning if the pressure falls below 2psi. That will give you an early warning if your filters are clogging up. Ours is wired into the auxilliary input of the EIS. Its a tricky one - dont know why they say dont use with auto fuel - dosent make sense. I guess you will have to ask them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filters On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote: Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the chamber and leaves through the top. Carl, I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter" is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model # of what you're using? Fred --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
From: "Paul Atkinson" <paullatkinson(at)talktalk.net>
Steve It does. Could I trouble you with a few practical questions.... How do you avoid spilling fuel inside the aeroplane when you change filters, and is it easy to tell visually when they are contaminated? Did you change them after each flight in the early stages or did you develop a sense of when was a good time to change them based on what they looked like? Thanks Paul Atkinson wrote: > > > Fred, > The purolator filters do work and it is worth sticking with them. > I had exactly the problems recorded elsewhere on the list and having > read about the issue before first flight I ensured that I bought a stack > of refills before we got going. Yes the filters clogged in the test > flying despite all the preflight flushing I had done. > Over the first 25 hours the filters got cleaner and cleaner (or at least > did not clog as quickly). Now upto 50 hours and I have replaced the > filters again but only for sense rather than as they were blocked. I had > used the same filters for the last 15 hours without a problem. > My Test Pilot advised to keep the reserve filter unused (don't taxi with > the reserve line on, as per the manual) and then you know you have a > clean source of fuel if needed. I have only once had to change to the > reserve and that was in the first 10 hours when the debris was still > being removed. > I hope this helps. > Regards > Steve Pitt > G-SMDH > > -- / ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
OK - it would seem that Auto Fuel attacks the rubber seal in that particular unit. Now that you come to mention it there is a degree of swelling in the gasket each time we dismantle it (about once a year) but we have never had any problem reassembling the unit and there is no evidence of deterioration - nor does it leak. I can only assume that some brands of auto fuel contain additives which attack the rubber. I would have thought the simple answer would be to replace the gasket with cork or auto gasket material - which one would assume is resistant. Anyway, why dont they make gaskets that are fuel resistant - its not rocket science. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filters On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote: Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the chamber and leaves through the top. Carl, I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter" is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model # of what you're using? Fred --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
And here would seem is the evidence "28 gallons of fuel on the hangar floor" http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=115677&sid=e58bbc9d415735 15c9bc20686e9000ff But as I said before "why dont they make the gaskets from fuel resistant material". ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Pattinson To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:17 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters OK - it would seem that Auto Fuel attacks the rubber seal in that particular unit. Now that you come to mention it there is a degree of swelling in the gasket each time we dismantle it (about once a year) but we have never had any problem reassembling the unit and there is no evidence of deterioration - nor does it leak. I can only assume that some brands of auto fuel contain additives which attack the rubber. I would have thought the simple answer would be to replace the gasket with cork or auto gasket material - which one would assume is resistant. Anyway, why dont they make gaskets that are fuel resistant - its not rocket science. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filters On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote: Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the chamber and leaves through the top. Carl, I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter" is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model # of what you're using? Fred http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List the Web http://forums.matronics.com ========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Possibly more of a worry is the gasket leaking and allowing air to be sucked into the fuel system and cause fuel starvation. Still I guess that if the aircraft isnt leaking fuel all over the hangar floor it is reasonable to assume the fuel system is airtight. Perhaps they use different fuel additives here in the UK. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Pattinson To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:17 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters OK - it would seem that Auto Fuel attacks the rubber seal in that particular unit. Now that you come to mention it there is a degree of swelling in the gasket each time we dismantle it (about once a year) but we have never had any problem reassembling the unit and there is no evidence of deterioration - nor does it leak. I can only assume that some brands of auto fuel contain additives which attack the rubber. I would have thought the simple answer would be to replace the gasket with cork or auto gasket material - which one would assume is resistant. Anyway, why dont they make gaskets that are fuel resistant - its not rocket science. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filters On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote: Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of the chamber and leaves through the top. Carl, I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter" is not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model # of what you're using? Fred http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List the Web http://forums.matronics.com ========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivor Phillips" <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Fuel venting
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Hi Fred I used a vent valve TRV86 in the top of the filler with a AN fitting taken down to just forward of the flap tube, http://www.thinkauto.com/ information on web site sent photo's direct! regards Ivor -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: 01 July 2007 18:43 Subject: Europa-List: Fuel venting I understand that some builders have vented the tank and the sight gauge to the top of the fuel filler pipe, taking care that the precise location will not allow fuel being added to inadvertantly flow into the vents. What I don't understand is...using the supplied fuel filler cap (which is specifically called out as "non-venting", again in the ACS catalogue)...how such an arrangement in fact can act to vent the fuel system. Can anyone enlighten me? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
From: Peter Timm <cptimm(at)telus.net>
on 07/7/1 10:37 AM, Fred Klein at fklein(at)orcasonline.com wrote: > > On Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:17 AM, Carl Pattinson wrote: > >> Our gascolator is a cheap aviation kit type filter with a metal bowl >> and drain valve at the bottom. The fine gauze filter is a flat mesh >> circle in the top of the unit. The fuel enters through the bottom of >> the chamber and leaves through the top. > > Carl, > > I note in Acft. Spruce Cat. that the only "aviation kit type filter" is > not recommended for auto fuel; do you recall the name brand and model # > of what you're using? > > Fred Fred, I have used that same Aircraft Spruce filter for 340 hours. Just made my own top gasket, to replace the original one. Peter Timm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Hi Peter, What is your gasket made from? In ignorance we have been flying around with a "suspect" gasket and no ill effects so far (5 years and 150hrs). Can any one with an understanding of fuel composition/ additives cast any light on the matter. I always thought that Petrol was - well petrol (or gasoline if you prefer). Diesel on the other hand attacks all sorts of synthetic meterials and rubbers - including the paintwork on some cars. I really cant understand why a gacolator supplied for kit use is so labelled "not for use with auto fuel". Why cant they supply a suitable gasket in the first place - its totally crazy! Carl Pattinson > > Fred, > > I have used that same Aircraft Spruce filter for 340 hours. Just made my > own > top gasket, to replace the original one. > > Peter Timm > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Carl, Thank you for your prompt response. You say: > All I can say is that we use exclusively automotive unleaded fuel in > ours and have done so for 5 years with no problems. We cant/ dont use > leaded or 100LL because the oil we use in our Rotax 912UL is fully > synthetic. Do you know whether or not your fuel has included any ethanol? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
My understanding is that all unleaded fuel in the UK contains Ethanol. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:27 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters Carl, Thank you for your prompt response. You say: All I can say is that we use exclusively automotive unleaded fuel in ours and have done so for 5 years with no problems. We cant/ dont use leaded or 100LL because the oil we use in our Rotax 912UL is fully synthetic. Do you know whether or not your fuel has included any ethanol? Fred --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Fred: My filters were upstream of the fuel seletor which meant they were basically at the outlet of each tank feed. I thought this was reasonable and so did everyone else who gave it a cursury look. However when you are 50 ft off of the ground on take off reaching to switch tank sides for a good filter really doesn't cut the mustard that close to the ground. Putting them after fuel selector valve and in front of each electric fuel pump gives you more options. The normal procedure for takeoff and landing is to have the aux pump on also. So if you do get a clog by chance you have a parallel path. And since you normally only run the primary pump for flight the filter in front of the aux pump is also less likely to have some garbage loading in it. Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ > [Original Message] > From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> > To: > Date: 7/1/2007 7:53:50 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters > > > Steve...thanks so much for staying on this topic...everytime I reread > my original post, it sounds cockier and cockier, much to my chagrin. I > take it that your "burble" was found to have been caused by tank debris > (?). > Do you still have the Europa filters upstream of the selector? Could > you explain your reasoning for putting the Frams downstream of the > selector? > > Fred > > On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 07:19 AM, Steve Hagar wrote: > > > > > > > > No matter how good you clean your tank and system you can't clean it > > good > > enough. I spent days and days. Soap, water. multiple flushes with > > gasoline, compressed air, vacuuming etc. I felt fat and happy also > > with > > my process, nothing remotely visible or blowing around inside the > > tank. > > Several hours of taxi and runup, compass swing time etc. before first > > flight The engine burbled on the go part on a touch and go and the > > plane > > ended up in a big mud puddle off the end of the runway just short of > > the > > airport boundary and a 4 lane toroughfare. This happened at about 4 > > hours > > flight time. > > > > Solution: 2 BIG disposable automotive fuel filters downstream of your > > fuel > > selector valve. Throw them away before first flight. Fly 2 hours > > with new > > ones. Then go for 10. Then you can make believe you are on top of > > the > > situation. You can get Fram's at discount stores for about 8 bucks > > each. > > They are about 2 inches in diameter and 4 inches or so long, so there > > is > > plenty of surface area inside. > > > > Steve Hagar > > A143 > > Mesa AZ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
From: Peter Timm <cptimm(at)telus.net>
on 07/7/1 12:30 PM, Carl Pattinson at carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > > Hi Peter, > > What is your gasket made from? > > In ignorance we have been flying around with a "suspect" gasket and no ill > effects so far (5 years and 150hrs). Can any one with an understanding of > fuel composition/ additives cast any light on the matter. I always thought > that Petrol was - well petrol (or gasoline if you prefer). Diesel on the > other hand attacks all sorts of synthetic meterials and rubbers - including > the paintwork on some cars. > > I really cant understand why a gacolator supplied for kit use is so labelled > "not for use with auto fuel". > > Why cant they supply a suitable gasket in the first place - its totally > crazy! > > Carl Pattinson > >> >> Fred, >> >> I have used that same Aircraft Spruce filter for 340 hours. Just made my >> own >> top gasket, to replace the original one. >> >> Peter Timm >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Carl, I used a card-board like gasket material sold in any automotive supply store, and used suitably sized templates to cut out my gasket with a very sharp knife. I put a piece of the material in a jar with auto-gas , while I was still working on the plane. It never reacted to the gas in any way and it is still the same gasket six years later. My gascolator is mounted on a small quarter bulkhead low down behind the trailing edge of the left flap. The fuel-line goes from the selector valve to the gascolator, then forward through the electric boost-pump , which is mounted forward on the same bulkhead, through the tunnel and firewall to the mechanical pump. I put an inspection door under the gascolator for testing and servicing. It works very well. Hope this explains it. Peter Timm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>
Subject: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 01, 2007
Fred, Not wanting to beat the topic to death, but my experience was the same as everyone else's. that is to say despite all the care I took in vacuuming, washing, flushing and so on, my gascolator pulled out a surprising amount of crud. It was roughly equivalent to the size of two sugar cubes over the first 25 hours. So, what ever fuel system you settle on, be very cautious in the early flight testing phases. Just as a reminder, according to the FAA, More than 70% of engine failures in homebuilt aircraft are due to fuel problems, and half of homebuilt aircraft suffer a reduction or complete loss of power in the first 10 hours of flight. Very sobering statistics. Regards, Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2007
From: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh?
Hi Bud, Thanks for setting up the forum. I plan to be there and I will be with my plane in the Home Built Camping area. Cheers, John N262WF, mono XS, 912S Mooresville, North Carolina ORIGINAL MESSAGE From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com> Subject: Europa-List: Anyone going to Oshkosh? Europa Owners, I will be hosting a Europa Forum on Thursday the 26th of July from 4:00 - 5:15 P.M. at Pavilion 1 for all Europa Owners and intersted parties. My thanks to Jim Butcher and others who have helped me to come show the flag and share what news I have as the new distributor for Europa. I will close my shop and join you to answer any questions on how the company is doing and any questions on construction, as I have had the opportunity to help a few of you from construction thru flight test. So please, bring your questions, pictures and war stories to share. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Europa Distributor and fellow owner. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Subject: Membership CD
From: "Rob Waters" <robw(at)iprolink.co.nz>
Hi Brian, The CD you sent me arrived in my mailbox today. That's very qick service. Thank you Rob Waters New Zealand ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "paul baker" <pbaker4(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 02, 2007
If you want to see the difference in auto fuel and avgas. get a couple of styofoam cups and put auto fuel in one and avgas in the other. In a few seconds the auto fuel will disolve the cup . the avfuel will not. I mechanic showed me this and I told him it is a good thing my gas tank is not made of styrofoam!!!! paul baker ,912 uls ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2007
From: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel venting
Hi Fred, I vented the tank to the neck since I was unhappy with the standard vent arrangement. The main problem I found was that the vent tube from the tank was too small and caused the fill pipe to back up and burp at low fill rates from a hose. The vent pipe also vented fuel onto the top of the fuselage. The changes I made have worked out well and consist of the following steps :- * Modified the vent fitting at the tank so that I could use a larger vent tube size (clear plastic tubing with fabric reinforcement, 3/8" dia I think. I can check if you wish). * Installed a tee fitting at the top neck of the filler. This was bonded into place with Redux. * The center leg of the tee is connected into the filler neck which was drilled to suit. One other leg is connected to the tank vent tubing and the third leg is sized for the original small tubing and goes directly to the vent on the fuselage top. * Another feature which helps during filling is that I have a 2" section in the middle of the fuel down pipe which is left unpainted. This makes it easy to check filling progress. I can now fill at basically the full flow rate and I do not get any fuel vented onto the fuselage top. I do not use a sight gauge arrangement. I have two capacitance fuel gauges plus my Grand Rapids EIS flowmeter and totaliser. Cheers, John N262WF, mono XS, 912S Mooresville, North Carolina ORIGINAL MESSAGE Subject: Europa-List: Fuel venting From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> I understand that some builders have vented the tank and the sight gauge to the top of the fuel filler pipe, taking care that the precise location will not allow fuel being added to inadvertantly flow into the vents. What I don't understand is...using the supplied fuel filler cap (which is specifically called out as "non-venting", again in the ACS catalogue)...how such an arrangement in fact can act to vent the fuel system. Can anyone enlighten me? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Williams Wynne" <www(at)wynne.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 02, 2007
In the same vein Paul, if you want your battery to crank the engine first time at max power, wake it up with a few seconds of panel or lights load. Then turn that load off, give the battery a few seconds to recover and you should get 80%+ from the sleepy head rather than 60%- we usually settle for. naltpkt Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: paul baker To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:06 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters If you want to see the difference in auto fuel and avgas. get a couple of styofoam cups and put auto fuel in one and avgas in the other. In a few seconds the auto fuel will disolve the cup . the avfuel will not. I mechanic showed me this and I told him it is a good thing my gas tank is not made of styrofoam!!!! paul baker ,912 uls ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Space Travel
Date: Jul 02, 2007
For those of you with yearnings for space travel, check out w.youtube.com -weightless dog. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: New date for Endelave Fly-In
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Gert, I checked your web address, thinking of putting the new Endelave details on the Europa Flying program, but all I got was the details of TDC's latest business news! Regards, David Joyce (Europa Club Trips Organiser) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gert Dalgaard" <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk> Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:13 AM Subject: Europa-List: New date for Endelave Fly-In > > Due to bad weather, grounded ac, etc., we have decided to move the > Fly-In to September. > For details check: http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/ > IndbydelseGB.htm > Regards Gert > OY-GDS > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gert Dalgaard <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: New date for Endelave Fly-In
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Hi David That is because your PC put the web-address on 2 lines.... try: http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/IndbydelseGB.htm Regards Gert Den 02/07/2007 kl. 16.43 skrev David Joyce: > > > Gert, I checked your web address, thinking of putting the new Endelave > details on the Europa Flying program, but all I got was the details > of TDC's > latest business news! > Regards, David Joyce (Europa Club Trips Organiser) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gert Dalgaard" <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk> > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:13 AM > Subject: Europa-List: New date for Endelave Fly-In > > >> >> Due to bad weather, grounded ac, etc., we have decided to move the >> Fly-In to September. >> For details check: http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/ >> IndbydelseGB.htm >> Regards Gert >> OY-GDS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2007
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel venting
Fred, My aircraft is vented, per the manuel, with one deviation. I added a "T" at the top of the filler tube, that allows fuel to spill out into the filler neck, before reaching the top of the aircraft. Keeps gas from spilling out on my paint. Jeff - Baby Blue 300+ hours and in for 2nd annual... Fred Klein wrote: > > I understand that some builders have vented the tank and the sight > gauge to the top of the fuel filler pipe, taking care that the precise > location will not allow fuel being added to inadvertantly flow into > the vents. What I don't understand is...using the supplied fuel filler > cap (which is specifically called out as "non-venting", again in the > ACS catalogue)...how such an arrangement in fact can act to vent the > fuel system. > > Can anyone enlighten me? > > Fred > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: New date for Endelave Fly-In
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Thanks, that works nicely. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gert Dalgaard" <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: New date for Endelave Fly-In > > Hi David > > That is because your PC put the web-address on 2 lines.... try: > > http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/IndbydelseGB.htm > > Regards Gert > > > > > > Den 02/07/2007 kl. 16.43 skrev David Joyce: > > > > > > > Gert, I checked your web address, thinking of putting the new Endelave > > details on the Europa Flying program, but all I got was the details > > of TDC's > > latest business news! > > Regards, David Joyce (Europa Club Trips Organiser) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gert Dalgaard" <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk> > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:13 AM > > Subject: Europa-List: New date for Endelave Fly-In > > > > > >> > >> Due to bad weather, grounded ac, etc., we have decided to move the > >> Fly-In to September. > >> For details check: http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/ > >> IndbydelseGB.htm > >> Regards Gert > >> OY-GDS > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Jeffers" <pjeffers(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: New date for Endelave Fly-In
Date: Jul 02, 2007
P.F.M !!! The clouds of mystery have been drawn aside. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gert Dalgaard Sent: 02 July 2007 16:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: New date for Endelave Fly-In Hi David That is because your PC put the web-address on 2 lines.... try: http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/IndbydelseGB.htm Regards Gert Den 02/07/2007 kl. 16.43 skrev David Joyce: > > > Gert, I checked your web address, thinking of putting the new Endelave > details on the Europa Flying program, but all I got was the details > of TDC's > latest business news! > Regards, David Joyce (Europa Club Trips Organiser) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gert Dalgaard" <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk> > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:13 AM > Subject: Europa-List: New date for Endelave Fly-In > > >> >> Due to bad weather, grounded ac, etc., we have decided to move the >> Fly-In to September. >> For details check: http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/ >> IndbydelseGB.htm >> Regards Gert >> OY-GDS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > 12:19 12:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Rotax weights
Date: Jul 02, 2007
I seem to be on here a lot more than I should. In order to estimate what effect various units will have on my CofG, I have tried to access comparative weights for the 912 and 914 variations. All the old addresses for Rotax seem to have vanished (or at least I'm not in good order to receive them) and the one new address boasts "Products" but has only cute photos and little basic facts. I'm sure I could bug the distributor but think the factory should ante up the details. What is the useful address of the Rotax website giving real facts of it products? Please? Ferg A064 mono 914 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Europa List" <n914va(at)bvunet.net>
Subject: Re: Rotax weights
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Ferg...I just went to the link below for 914 specs........Vaughn http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_engines/rotax_914ULs.htm Origina Message ----- From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:53 PM Subject: Europa-List: Rotax weights > > I seem to be on here a lot more than I should. > In order to estimate what effect various units will have on my CofG, I > have > tried to access comparative weights for the 912 and 914 variations. All > the > old addresses for Rotax seem to have vanished (or at least I'm not in good > order to receive them) and the one new address boasts "Products" but has > only cute photos and little basic facts. > I'm sure I could bug the distributor but think the factory should > ante up the details. What is the useful address of the Rotax website > giving > real facts of it products? > Please? > Ferg > A064 mono 914 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax weights
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Ferg, Try www.kodiakbs.com This is the site for the North American Distributor of Rotax products and is the "official" site for North Americans to obtain product specifications and manuals. To purchase stuff you have to go to local folks in canada -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121840#121840 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Anyone know what grades of rubber are compatible with avgas and/or mogas (eg for use as a gasket under fuel level sender)? Willie Harrison G-BZNY On 2 Jul 2007, at 14:06, paul baker wrote: > If you want to see the difference in auto fuel and avgas. > get a couple of styofoam cups and put auto fuel in one and > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Viton (fluoro-elastomer). Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:17 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters Anyone know what grades of rubber are compatible with avgas and/or mogas (eg for use as a gasket under fuel level sender)? Willie Harrison G-BZNY On 2 Jul 2007, at 14:06, paul baker wrote: If you want to see the difference in auto fuel and avgas. get a couple of styofoam cups and put auto fuel in one and ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Subject: Re: Rotax weights
From: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Ferg Another site: http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/ Ron Parigoris > > Ferg, > > Try www.kodiakbs.com > This is the site for the North American Distributor of Rotax products > and is the "official" site for North Americans to obtain product > specifications and manuals. > To purchase stuff you have to go to local folks in canada > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121840#121840 > > > > > > > > > > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel venting
From: "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net>
Date: Jul 03, 2007
Hi John , i notice that you are still using the vent in the fuselage top, so, are you getting any fuel stains or spills over the fuselage from the vent when you are full of fuel to the Filler Cap and in The Climb? I am in the process of "drawing up" a similar arrangement to you except using two "ninties" and venting to the fuselage bottom - it would be eaisier for me to use my existing "roof" vent as in your arrangement , but, i need to know if your getting fuel spills when "full to the filler cap" with your arrangement, steve vestuti #573 G-CEBV approx 25Hrs of absolutly fantasic flying :D . Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel venting
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Fred, I have done pretty well the same as John has. Take a look at http://europa363.versadev.com/ under July 2002 and you will see a bunch of photographs. I didn't use the sight gauge as the general theme on the forum was that it was pretty well useless. I used a system designed by Tony K that measures the weight of fuel in the tank with a pressure transducer, analogue to digital converter and a microprocessor to display the tank contents on a 10 segment LED display. It works nicely. Its most a back up to my fuel totalizer in my GRT EIS Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Subject: XS Tailwheel and rudder stop
From: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
I want to install either a Graham Singleton tailwheel stop on my XS or replicate one. I am using stock rudder control horn arrangement and want to try and limit stress on horn and rudder stops. Has anyone added anything to tailwheel spring to prevent paint from getting hurt where stop will contact? Any pics? Next question is about right rudder stop, it seems that there can be quite a bit of force applied to it. Has anyone made this stop more robust? (welded a wedge with a forward screw perhaps) Any pics? Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Safety Data
From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)oh.rr.com>
Date: Jul 02, 2007
Excuse me, but raw data re Europa accidents is freely available from www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins.cfm (vastly most of the cases) and from http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp#query_start -- both using query re Europa. Jeesh, we can competently build an airplane much more than a Pietenpol, post to the net re safety issues, but cannot do the simple "internets" keystroke/mouse-click thing? :-) Seriously, all the raw data is there. Very interesting, and mostly reassuring IMV, for this A/C type in hands of diligent builders/flyers. For those wondering about my pluralization of "internets," this refers to a quote by our aging, U.S. Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska trying to expound on his knowledge if this technology. So much so, Keith Olberman on MSNBC here constantly and similarly refers to the net as plural. :-) Our Senate is leastwise one-up on the House of Lords, who would never once so mis-use our non-native tongue! Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121903#121903 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David DeFord" <davedeford(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 02, 2007
-----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Harrison Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:17 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters Anyone know what grades of rubber are compatible with avgas and/or mogas (eg for use as a gasket under fuel level sender)? Willie Harrison G-BZNY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David DeFord" <davedeford(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Fuel filters
Date: Jul 02, 2007
> Anyone know what grades of rubber are compatible with avgas and/or mogas > (eg for use as a gasket under fuel level sender)? Buna-N (Nitrile rubber) is widely used for fuel-proof O-rings. Dave DeFord N135TD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: UVTReith(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 03, 2007
Subject: Re: Fuel filters
The best material for both is PTFE (Polytetrafluorethylen), also known as Teflon, Fluon, Hostafon TF, Algoflon. This material is totally resist against Avgas, Mogas, Petrol, Diesel etc. It's available as seal rings (flat and O-ring) and also in other forms. Temperature range from - 200 =B0C up to + 260 =B0C. We use it for sealings on ball valves, needle valves etc. from - 100 =B0C to + 230 =B0C Bruno Reith ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Safety Data
Date: Jul 03, 2007
I once worked for a consulting company which was commissioned to design an ethernet filter (it was a long time ago). One of our more challenged colleagues was heard to say, "I can't understand why anyone would want to filter ether through a net anyway..." Willie H > > > Excuse me, but raw data re Europa accidents is freely available > from www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins.cfm (vastly most of > the cases) and from http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp#query_start -- > both using query re Europa. > > Jeesh, we can competently build an airplane much more than a > Pietenpol, post to the net re safety issues, but cannot do the > simple "internets" keystroke/mouse-click thing? :-) > > Seriously, all the raw data is there. Very interesting, and mostly > reassuring IMV, for this A/C type in hands of diligent builders/ > flyers. > > For those wondering about my pluralization of "internets," this > refers to a quote by our aging, U.S. Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska > trying to expound on his knowledge if this technology. So much so, > Keith Olberman on MSNBC here constantly and similarly refers to the > net as plural. :-) Our Senate is leastwise one-up on the House of > Lords, who would never once so mis-use our non-native tongue! > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 03, 2007
I just had the opportunity to search the AAIB site for Europa events and to contrast the metadata with the NTSB data I am familiar with. By metadata, I am referring the size and rough outlines of the data, not specific content. As of today, there are 216 accidents in the UK data and 5 in the US. I know the Europa has been in the UK longer by 4 or 5 years out of perhaps 12 and there are approximately double the number of AC in the UK. Those facts alone seem inadequate to explain the 40:1 accident ratio. Is the AAIB far more sensitive to inclusion in events? There are quite a few prop strikes and ground loops, but these would be included in the NTSB if any damage occurred. Does anyone have an explaination or hypothesis? -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121974#121974 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events
Date: Jul 03, 2007
Ira As a first reponse to your e-mail I would say, from a cursory glance at the AAIB web page, that all 216 incidents do not relate to Europas (some are commercial aircraft so why the search engine picked these out.........???). I would also say that there also appear to be some duplications or follow up reports to earlier reports so I do not think that the statistics are accurate. Nevertheless there are many reports and, again from my QNG (quick nervous glance) the relevant reports of Europa incidents do appear to have been accurately picked out from the AAIB and put into the Europa members site. Why there is a numerical discrepancy between the AAIB and FAA site is beyond this readers knowledge. Regards Steve Pitt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James" <jthursby(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events
Date: Jul 03, 2007
Hi Ira, In the UK I believe every little thing that happens gets put on the books. Somebody always watching and all that. Over here we have some leeway and you can call your kitbuilt whatever you want here like the IRAR2007 if you wish. Hence it would not show up on a Europa data search. I've had two propstrikes and one crash (not Europa) and nothing is on the records. Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 9:31 AM Subject: Europa-List: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events I just had the opportunity to search the AAIB site for Europa events and to contrast the metadata with the NTSB data I am familiar with. By metadata, I am referring the size and rough outlines of the data, not specific content. As of today, there are 216 accidents in the UK data and 5 in the US. I know the Europa has been in the UK longer by 4 or 5 years out of perhaps 12 and there are approximately double the number of AC in the UK. Those facts alone seem inadequate to explain the 40:1 accident ratio. Is the AAIB far more sensitive to inclusion in events? There are quite a few prop strikes and ground loops, but these would be included in the NTSB if any damage occurred. Does anyone have an explaination or hypothesis? -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121974#121974 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh?
Date: Jul 03, 2007
Ira, Your emails went to my junk box. See you there and lets figure out a dinner plan. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: rampil<mailto:ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:20 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anyone going to Oshkosh? > Hey Bud, I'll be there Sunday through Friday. We have pip organ concert tkts down in Madison at 19:30, so we can join you at least for the start of the forum. Hasta ijr -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121445#121445 matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121445#121445> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List avigator?Europa-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: XS Tailwheel and rudder stop
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Jul 03, 2007
Hi Ron, Good idea! With the Singleton rudder/tail-wheel system installed, the rudder-stops are on the belcrank mechanism, not the rudder anymore. The tail-wheel springs are inside, and i do not paint them. Pictures are in the usual place. Regards, Jos Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 03, 2007
From: former memsec <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Europa Club member login details
>Sounds like there are a few of us out here that are not aware of a members >only section and how to get onto it. >How about someone "in authority" explaining just how we do it Alan - I no longer have any "authority" (not that I ever had much anyway!) but perhaps I can help. If you point your web browser (like Internet Explorer, Firefox, Opera or Safari - NB Safari now available for windoze!) at the main address for the Europa Club - www.europaclub.org.uk - you should see a page with a sidebar for navigation and a main section containing the following words, beside a nice picture of OE-CKD: "Welcome to the Europa Club Web Site! The Europa Club is a group of individuals drawn together by their interest in the Europa kit aircraft. They include builders, pilots, and those who simply want to know more about the Europa type. For more information about the Europa aircraft itself, please visit The Europa pages. For more information about the Europa Club, please visit The Europa Club pages. Paid-up Europa Club members may also follow the instructions to request access to the members-only pages of this site." Now look closely at the last sentence quoted above. On the web page, the words "instructions to request access" are highlighted in some way. Your browser may do things differently, but on mine those words are blue, in contrast to the adjacent ones in black. That means they constitute a LINK to another page. (Many web pages use underlining to highlight links, but our webmaster chose to use a colour contrast and bold face; this helps to avoid confusion between words that are emphasized and those that are links.) Click once on those words to get to the page where you can register for access to the members-only section. On that page are instructions for the registration process; you should read & understand them before proceeding. (The essence is that you make up your own ID & password.) In the above quote from the Europa Club opening page, the words "members-only pages" are also a link. If you have already registered, you can click on that link and get into the members-only section. I'm sure the webmaster would appreciate advice on how he could make the entry point any more obvious, from anyone who's been having trouble finding how to register and access the members-only pages. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (former Europa Club Membership Secretary) | e-mail ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 03, 2007
Hey Jim! Looking forward to seeing you at OSH! It is interesting how a few things seem to skip reportage. Like that Europa I saw cracked in half, with no report on the NTSB, repaired and quietly shipped out of the country. And we won't even discuss the door that had a short flight into the Everglades ;-) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122021#122021 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James" <jthursby(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events
Date: Jul 03, 2007
-----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 1:36 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events And we won't even discuss the door that had a short flight into the Everglades ;-) One of many MIA Europa doors. Jim T. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events
Date: Jul 03, 2007
The door came off my plane when it was being flown by the original builde r, fluttered down into a lady's back yard. When she found it there, she drove over to t he airport, walked in the FBO with the door and said "does this belong to anybody here? ". Nobody knew anything but a week later the owner came into the FBO and s aw it sitting behind the counter! Glenn> From: jthursby@tampabay. rr.com> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: AAIB v s NTSB reports of Europa events> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 13:58:50 -0400> > -- -----Original Message-----> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> [ mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil> Sent: T uesday, July 03, 2007 1:36 PM> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Euro pa-List: Re: AAIB vs NTSB reports of Europa events> > And we won't even dis cuss the door that had a short flight into the> Everglades ;-)> > > One of ===> > > _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine=92s 2007 editors=92 choice for best web mail=97award-winning Wi ndows Live Hotmail. ration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeremy Davey" <europaflyer_3(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Safety Data
Date: Jul 04, 2007
Doing Jury Service this week... on Monday the judge asked what an Excel spreadsheet was :-) Shades of that fantastic Not The Nine O'Clock News Sketch with the digital watch, video recorder, and deluxe-model inflatable doll... -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Harrison Sent: 03 July 2007 10:37 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Safety Data I once worked for a consulting company which was commissioned to design an ethernet filter (it was a long time ago). One of our more challenged colleagues was heard to say, "I can't understand why anyone would want to filter ether through a net anyway..." Willie H > > > Excuse me, but raw data re Europa accidents is freely available > from www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins.cfm (vastly most of > the cases) and from http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp#query_start -- > both using query re Europa. > > Jeesh, we can competently build an airplane much more than a > Pietenpol, post to the net re safety issues, but cannot do the > simple "internets" keystroke/mouse-click thing? :-) > > Seriously, all the raw data is there. Very interesting, and mostly > reassuring IMV, for this A/C type in hands of diligent builders/ > flyers. > > For those wondering about my pluralization of "internets," this > refers to a quote by our aging, U.S. Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska > trying to expound on his knowledge if this technology. So much so, > Keith Olberman on MSNBC here constantly and similarly refers to the > net as plural. :-) Our Senate is leastwise one-up on the House of > Lords, who would never once so mis-use our non-native tongue! > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Safety Data
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Jul 04, 2007
Is not an XL spreadsheet something you put on the hangar floor so your Liberty doesn't make a mess? Ron Parigoris Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Steorn Orbo free energy motor going live today 6PM London!
Date: Jul 04, 2007
Heres the Steorn Orbo free energy motor going live today 6PM London for a 10 day 24/7 videocast from four webcams. The device will be shown lifting a weigh t. Claimed power is .5 watt /cc, good enough for an aircraft engine! http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/04/steorns-orbo-free-energy-machine-demons trated-tomorrow/ _________________________________________________________________ See what you=92re getting into=85before you go there. http://newlivehotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 05, 2007
Subject: Anyone going to Arlington (WA)?
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Arlington EAA fly-in scheduled from 11 July thru 15 July... I've been planning to drive down and (hopefully) kick some Europa tires... Fred A194 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?= <air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Legend'Air
Date: Jul 06, 2007
Legend=99Air, the annual french homebuilt and vintage aircraft fly-in will be held in Vichy, LFLV, located in the center of France, on 13, 14, 1 5 July. I hope many Europas from all over Europe will attend. All aircraft welcomed. Information on rsafrance.com. Check Notams as it seems that the re is a last minute change in the radio frequencies to be used for the even t. Do not hesitate to post questions on this forum if needed. Remi Guerner F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: XS Tailwheel and rudder stop
From: "danbish" <danbish(at)norwalktucson.com>
Date: Jul 06, 2007
Ron, See http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album169&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=2 for photos of the GS mod work I've done so far. Dan Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: N81EU incident - the culprit
From: "danbish" <danbish(at)norwalktucson.com>
Date: Jul 06, 2007
Richard, I found a post on the EAA site some time ago about using Gates R9 fuel injection hose instead of the standard stuff which is usually sold in the states as R7, or some variance thereof. The R9 has a Teflon sheath inside the line that is supposed to be much more long lasting and theoretically wouldn't have to be replaced as often. I used it everywhere I had a need for 1/4" or 3/8" hose that was too tight to use versatube aluminum or where I had a need for 1/2" hose (just at the pumps) since I was unable to locate R9 in 1/2". But it ain't cheap; about $8 a foot. Dan Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David.Corbett" <david.corbett5(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: UK PFA news - Europa safety mods
Date: Jul 06, 2007
Wearing my UK PFA Executive Committee and Europa Club committee hats, I asked Francis Donaldson (PFA Chief Engineer, for those of you overseas who do not know) earlier this week if he could release a progress report on the proposed Europa factory/PFA modifications to be incorporated in UK Europae following the tragic accident to G-HOFC. You will see Francis's reply below. However, before you read it, I must ask you all to consider some other factors which Francis passed to me in a second e-mail, and confirmed by voicemail whilst I was at a funeral this afternoon. 1 We are all aware that UK AAIB are shortly to issue a Special Bulletin about the G-HOFC accident. Francis tells me that this Bulletin is not expected to give any firm conclusion about the accident - investigations are still ongoing into the very complex factors involved - and the Bulletin will basically only draw attention to the Flight Safety Bulletins issued by the PFA (see next paragraph). If the AAIB Bulletin reports as normal "Special's" do, I hope that we will at least be told publicly the scale of the damage/destruction that occurred to G-HOFC, even if no conclusions can yet be given. 2 Some Europae, like mine, have passed the inspections required by UK Europa Flight Safety Bulletins 006 and 007, but are grounded because the tailplane pip pin recesses have not been built to the dimensions in the build manual - in many cases, the dimensions are smaller, especially around the joint between the recess and the upper skin. Owners such as myself are obviously frustrated that we cannot fly but, quite understandably, Francis asks that those of us in a similar position to mine wait for the tailplane pip pin mod to come out, and do not chase PFA Engineering for individual special attention. As we can all appreciate, PFA Engineering have been severely overloaded by the investigations, and the resulting mod design work involved, that arises from this accident, and other PFA aircraft types are suffering as a result of these pressures on PFA Engineering. This situation has not been helped by the sad loss, to a job in Australia, of our recent and excellent recruit to the engineering team, Kerry Ashcroft; so PFA are short of an engineer again. 3 The proposed mods (outlined below) are currently with Europa (2004) Ltd being formatted. There will, of course, be a lead time on the supply of some mod kit parts - especially the longer wing rear pins required for Classic aircraft. I will have a discussion with Roger or John early next week to see whether they are yet prepared to go public as to the timescale for issuing the mod kits. 4 The tailplane mod will only require normal composite materials - BID and epoxy (the mod will specify readily available epoxies); Andy Draper has done a trial tailplane mod - to "ready for cosmetic finish" - in one working day. 5 For those in the UK West Midland/Wales area, Adrian Lloyd, my PFA inspector, and I are proposing to run a joint operation here at Shobdon for several local owners to get the tailplane pip pin access mods all done together. If you are interested in joining this team effort, please contact me off list. david.corbett5(at)btinternet.com (put "Europa mod" in subject box, please) Finally, I would like to express our Europa community's thank to Francis and his team, and Roger and John at the factory, for the enormous amount of work that they have had to put into our situation following the sad accident. As one of our committee members has said to me this evening - "Fly safely" - but of course I can't, at least in my Europa! David UK 265 G-BZAM _____ From: Francis Donaldson [mailto:francis.donaldson(at)pfa.org.uk] Sent: 06 July 2007 16:25 Cc: Brian Hope Subject: RE: Europa update Dear David Following the tragic accident with G-HOFC, in conjunction with Europa Aircraft we have carried out a safety study for the Europa rear wing attachment and tailplane system as a whole and this has resulted in various modifications being planned. These do not necessarily reflect the actual course of events in the structural failure of G-HOFC, which is still under investigation. The modifications which are currently being compiled achieve the following: 1. On Classics only, check centrality of rear wing pins in hard-point, fit new rear wing pins with longer threaded portion and fit washer and nut on the inside, behind the existing hard-point. This involves making a recess in the bottom skin locally for access, refilling with foam piece afterwards and patching skin locally. 2. On Classics and XS, ovalise the pip pin holes in the ends of the tailplane torque tube to prevent the pip-pin picking up actuating torque loads. Add an extra pip-pin recess of an improved design to each tail undersurface which will provide a reliable secondary retention system to prevent the tailplane half moving outboard if the sleeve should become disbonded. In the process of forming the new pip-pin recesses, key the sleeves into the structure to help prevent them becoming disbonded. Pip-pin will still enter tailplane from above. Recess in bottom surface can be filled afterwards for cosmetic purposes leaving tailplane looking as previously. Alternatively, the Europa club mod for improved sleeve retention can be incorporated at build. 3. On Classics and XS, add placards to the tailplanes adjacent to the pip-pin holes calling attention to the need to check presence of pip-pins and engagement of anti-balance tab pins before flight. The modifications will provide full details and, where needed, modified parts. Due to the amount of interest expressed by owners in the use of Loctite to prevent slop in the torque tube pinned joints, Europa Aircraft are also experimenting with the use of Loctite to see if this seems a viable proposition. Alternatively, we are also looking into the possibility of adding hidden stops to the tailplanes to contact simultaneously with the mass-balance meeting its stops. These are intended to prevent the torque tube and its pinned joints experiencing shock loads when the mass balance hits its stops, and so avoid enlargement of the torque tube pin holes causing slop in the mass balance arm and slop between the two tailplane halves. Best regards Francis Donaldson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 06, 2007
From: "Craig Ellison" <craig.ellison2(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to Arlington (WA)?
Hi Fred, I'm planning on coming up Thurs. evening and staying through Sun. morning. Hope to see other Europa builders/flyers there also. craig ellison N205CN Silverton, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 11:04 AM Subject: Europa-List: Anyone going to Arlington (WA)? > > Arlington EAA fly-in scheduled from 11 July thru 15 July... > > I've been planning to drive down and (hopefully) kick some Europa > tires... > > Fred > A194 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bryan allsop <bryanallsop(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: PFA- Europa Tailplane mods
Date: Jul 07, 2007
Hi David, I would echo your thanks to the PFA and Europa team for their efforts. I wo uld also echo your frustrations in being unable to fly a perfectly good air craft because of detail dimensional departures from the build manual. >From your paras. 4 and 5, together with Francis's para. 2, the proposed mod is a simple one which involves embedding a new pip retention feature, and relieving the possibility of the pin driving the TP6. This "retention featu re" sounds like something we could easily manufacturer ourselves. In this c ase, on our behalf, would you be prepared to ask the authorities to release some sort of illustration. It would be nice to be able to make a start on things without having to await the good offices of Europa to supply us with a kit. Memories of the delays with Mod 72 fill me with apprehension. Best regards. Bryan Allsop. G BYSA XS Mono > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 23:56:45 -0700> From: europa-list(at)matronics.com> To : europa-list-digest(at)matronics.com> Subject: Europa-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 0 7/06/07> > *> > =================== ======> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive> == =======================> > To day's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in H TML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and M essage Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as N otepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version:> > http://www.matronics.com /digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 07-07-06&Archi ve=Europa> > Text Version:> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview. php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 07-07-06&Archive=Europa> > > = ======================> EMail V ersion of Today's List Digest Archive> ============ ===========> > > ------------------------------------ ----------------------> Europa-List Digest Archive> ---> Total Messages Pos ted Fri 07/06/07: 5> ------------------------------------------------------ ----> > > Today's Message Index:> ----------------------> > 1. 01:07 AM - L egend'Air (=?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Guerner?=)> 2. 10:00 AM - Re: XS Tai lwheel and rudder stop (danbish)> 3. 10:28 AM - Re: N81EU incident - the cu lprit (danbish)> 4. 02:20 PM - UK PFA news - Europa safety mods (David.Corb ett)> 5. 09:46 PM - Re: Anyone going to Arlington (WA)? (Craig Ellison)> > > > ________________________________ Message 1 ____________________________ erner?= > Subject: Europa-List: Legend'Air> > > L egend=99Air, the annual french homebuilt and vintage aircraft fly-in> wil l be held in Vichy, LFLV, located in the center of France, on 13, 14, 1> 5 July. I hope many Europas from all over Europe will attend. All aircraft> w elcomed. Information on rsafrance.com. Check Notams as it seems that the> r e is a last minute change in the radio frequencies to be used for the even> t. Do not hesitate to post questions on this forum if needed. > Remi Guern er> F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 482 hours > > ___________ _____________________ Message 2 _____________________________________> > > stop> From: "danbish" <danbish(at)norwalktucson.com>> > > Ron,> > See > > htt p://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album169&op=modload& name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=2> > for photos of the GS mod work I've done so far.> > Dan> > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners. org> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _______________________ EU incident - the culprit> From: "danbish" <danbish(at)norwalktucson.com>> > > Richard,> > I found a post on the EAA site some time ago about using Gates R9 fuel injection> hose instead of the standard stuff which is usually sol d in the states as R7,> or some variance thereof. The R9 has a Teflon sheat h inside the line that is> supposed to be much more long lasting and theore tically wouldn't have to be replaced> as often. I used it everywhere I had a need for 1/4" or 3/8" hose that> was too tight to use versatube aluminum or where I had a need for 1/2" hose (just> at the pumps) since I was unable to locate R9 in 1/2".> > But it ain't cheap; about $8 a foot.> > Dan> > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org> > > ________________________________ Message : "David.Corbett" > Subject: Europa-List: UK PFA news - Europa safety mods> > Wearing my UK PFA Executive Committee and Europa Club committee hats, I> asked Francis Donaldson (PFA Chief Engineer , for those of you overseas who> do not know) earlier this week if he could release a progress report on the> proposed Europa factory/PFA modification s to be incorporated in UK Europae> following the tragic accident to G-HOFC . You will see Francis's reply below.> > > However, before you read it, I m ust ask you all to consider some other> factors which Francis passed to me in a second e-mail, and confirmed by> voicemail whilst I was at a funeral t his afternoon.> > > 1 We are all aware that UK AAIB are shortly to issue a Special> Bulletin about the G-HOFC accident. Francis tells me that this Bul letin is> not expected to give any firm conclusion about the accident - inv estigations> are still ongoing into the very complex factors involved - and the Bulletin> will basically only draw attention to the Flight Safety Bull etins issued by> the PFA (see next paragraph). If the AAIB Bulletin reports as normal> "Special's" do, I hope that we will at least be told publicly t he scale of> the damage/destruction that occurred to G-HOFC, even if no con clusions can> yet be given.> > > 2 Some Europae, like mine, have passed the inspections required by UK> Europa Flight Safety Bulletins 006 and 007, bu t are grounded because the> tailplane pip pin recesses have not been built to the dimensions in the> build manual - in many cases, the dimensions are smaller, especially around> the joint between the recess and the upper skin . Owners such as myself are> obviously frustrated that we cannot fly but, q uite understandably, Francis> asks that those of us in a similar position t o mine wait for the tailplane> pip pin mod to come out, and do not chase PF A Engineering for individual> special attention. As we can all appreciate, PFA Engineering have been> severely overloaded by the investigations, and t he resulting mod design work> involved, that arises from this accident, and other PFA aircraft types are> suffering as a result of these pressures on PFA Engineering. This situation> has not been helped by the sad loss, to a job in Australia, of our recent> and excellent recruit to the engineering t eam, Kerry Ashcroft; so PFA are> short of an engineer again.> > > 3 The pro posed mods (outlined below) are currently with Europa (2004)> Ltd being for matted. There will, of course, be a lead time on the supply of> some mod ki t parts - especially the longer wing rear pins required for> Classic aircra ft. I will have a discussion with Roger or John early next> week to see whe ther they are yet prepared to go public as to the timescale> for issuing th e mod kits.> > > 4 The tailplane mod will only require normal composite mat erials -> BID and epoxy (the mod will specify readily available epoxies); A ndy Draper> has done a trial tailplane mod - to "ready for cosmetic finish" - in one> working day.> > > 5 For those in the UK West Midland/Wales area, Adrian Lloyd, my PFA> inspector, and I are proposing to run a joint operat ion here at Shobdon for> several local owners to get the tailplane pip pin access mods all done> together. If you are interested in joining this team effort, please contact> me off list. david.corbett5(at)btinternet.com (put "Eu ropa mod" in subject> box, please)> > > Finally, I would like to express ou r Europa community's thank to Francis and> his team, and Roger and John at the factory, for the enormous amount of work> that they have had to put int o our situation following the sad accident.> > > As one of our committee me mbers has said to me this evening - "Fly safely" -> but of course I can't, at least in my Europa!> > > David> > UK 265 G-BZAM> > > _____ > > From: Fra ncis Donaldson [mailto:francis.donaldson(at)pfa.org.uk] > Sent: 06 July 2007 1 6:25> Cc: Brian Hope> Subject: RE: Europa update> > > Dear David > > > Foll owing the tragic accident with G-HOFC, in conjunction with Europa> Aircraft we have carried out a safety study for the Europa rear wing> attachment an d tailplane system as a whole and this has resulted in various> modificatio ns being planned. These do not necessarily reflect the actual> course of ev ents in the structural failure of G-HOFC, which is still under> investigati on. > > > The modifications which are currently being compiled achieve the following:> > > 1. On Classics only, check centrality of rear wing pins in hard-point,> fit new rear wing pins with longer threaded portion and fit wa sher and nut> on the inside, behind the existing hard-point. This involves making a recess> in the bottom skin locally for access, refilling with foam piece afterwards> and patching skin locally.> > > 2. On Classics and XS, o valise the pip pin holes in the ends of the> tailplane torque tube to preve nt the pip-pin picking up actuating torque> loads. Add an extra pip-pin rec ess of an improved design to each tail> undersurface which will provide a r eliable secondary retention system to> prevent the tailplane half moving ou tboard if the sleeve should become> disbonded. In the process of forming th e new pip-pin recesses, key the> sleeves into the structure to help prevent them becoming disbonded. Pip-pin> will still enter tailplane from above. R ecess in bottom surface can be> filled afterwards for cosmetic purposes lea ving tailplane looking as> previously. Alternatively, the Europa club mod f or improved sleeve retention> can be incorporated at build. > > > 3. On Cla ssics and XS, add placards to the tailplanes adjacent to the> pip-pin holes calling attention to the need to check presence of pip-pins> and engagemen t of > > anti-balance tab pins before flight. > > > The modifications will provide full details and, where needed, modified> parts. > > > Due to the a mount of interest expressed by owners in the use of Loctite to> prevent slo p in the torque tube pinned joints, Europa Aircraft are also> experimenting with the use of Loctite to see if this seems a viable> proposition. Altern atively, we are also looking into the possibility of> adding hidden stops t o the tailplanes to contact simultaneously with the> mass-balance meeting i ts stops. These are intended to prevent the torque> tube and its pinned joi nts experiencing shock loads when the mass balance> hits its stops, and so avoid enlargement of the torque tube pin holes> causing slop in the mass ba lance arm and slop between the two tailplane> halves. > > > Best regards > > > Francis Donaldson> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____ g Ellison" > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Anyone g oing to Arlington (WA)?> > > Hi Fred,> > I'm planning on coming up Thurs. e vening and staying through Sun. morning. > Hope to see other Europa builder s/flyers there also.> > craig ellison> N205CN> Silverton, OR> ----- Origina l Message ----- > From: "Fred Klein" <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>> Sent: Thursd ay, July 05, 2007 11:04 AM> Subject: Europa-List: Anyone going to Arlington (WA)?> > > >> > Arlington EAA fly-in scheduled from 11 July thru 15 July.. .> >> > I've been planning to drive down and (hopefully) kick some Europa > ===> > > > _________________________________________________________________ Missed the show?- Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. http://liveearth.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: UK PFA news - Europa safety mods
Date: Jul 07, 2007
My understanding is that the proposed modifications will be phased in over a period of time - eg: within the next ten hours (operating time). The million dollar question is how long it will take to manufacture the requisite parts. If memory serves me correctly Europa replaced the front pins for a longer version and this only took a matter of weeks to implement. A competent engineering outfit could knock out a couple of hunderd of these within a day. My initial observation on the proposed wing modification is why the work access hole has to be made through the wing surface and not through the wing root rib. Admittedly it wont be quite as easy to tighten the locking nut but not in my view impossible. The access hole could be repaired with as many plies of bid as required (and more) without affecting the external appearance or requiring a repaint job. Hopefully the PFA will hold fire on making the proposed mods mandatory till such time as the necessary parts become availabe. After all many Europas have flown safely for many hours. This tragic incident has simply highlighted some design points which could do with improvement. I personally believe that the current regime of checks should be sufficient to ensure we all fly safely till such time as the proposed mods can be implemented. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: David.Corbett To: Europa Forum Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:18 P Subject: Europa-List: UK PFA news - Europa safety mods Wearing my UK PFA Executive Committee and Europa Club committee hats, I asked Francis Donaldson (PFA Chief Engineer, for those of you overseas who do not know) earlier this week if he could release a progress report on the proposed Europa factory/PFA modifications to be incorporated in UK Europae following the tragic accident to G-HOFC. You will see Francis's reply below. However, before you read it, I must ask you all to consider some other factors which Francis passed to me in a second e-mail, and confirmed by voicemail whilst I was at a funeral this afternoon. 1 We are all aware that UK AAIB are shortly to issue a Special Bulletin about the G-HOFC accident. Francis tells me that this Bulletin is not expected to give any firm conclusion about the accident - investigations are still ongoing into the very complex factors involved - and the Bulletin will basically only draw attention to the Flight Safety Bulletins issued by the PFA (see next paragraph). If the AAIB Bulletin reports as normal "Special's" do, I hope that we will at least be told publicly the scale of the damage/destruction that occurred to G-HOFC, even if no conclusions can yet be given. 2 Some Europae, like mine, have passed the inspections required by UK Europa Flight Safety Bulletins 006 and 007, but are grounded because the tailplane pip pin recesses have not been built to the dimensions in the build manual - in many cases, the dimensions are smaller, especially around the joint between the recess and the upper skin. Owners such as myself are obviously frustrated that we cannot fly but, quite understandably, Francis asks that those of us in a similar position to mine wait for the tailplane pip pin mod to come out, and do not chase PFA Engineering for individual special attention. As we can all appreciate, PFA Engineering have been severely overloaded by the investigations, and the resulting mod design work involved, that arises from this accident, and other PFA aircraft types are suffering as a result of these pressures on PFA Engineering. This situation has not been helped by the sad loss, to a job in Australia, of our recent and excellent recruit to the engineering team, Kerry Ashcroft; so PFA are short of an engineer again. 3 The proposed mods (outlined below) are currently with Europa (2004) Ltd being formatted. There will, of course, be a lead time on the supply of some mod kit parts - especially the longer wing rear pins required for Classic aircraft. I will have a discussion with Roger or John early next week to see whether they are yet prepared to go public as to the timescale for issuing the mod kits. 4 The tailplane mod will only require normal composite materials - BID and epoxy (the mod will specify readily available epoxies); Andy Draper has done a trial tailplane mod - to "ready for cosmetic finish" - in one working day. 5 For those in the UK West Midland/Wales area, Adrian Lloyd, my PFA inspector, and I are proposing to run a joint operation here at Shobdon for several local owners to get the tailplane pip pin access mods all done together. If you are interested in joining this team effort, please contact me off list. david.corbett5(at)btinternet.com (put "Europa mod" in subject box, please) Finally, I would like to express our Europa community's thank to Francis and his team, and Roger and John at the factory, for the enormous amount of work that they have had to put into our situation following the sad accident. As one of our committee members has said to me this evening - "Fly safely" - but of course I can't, at least in my Europa! David UK 265 G-BZAM ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Francis Donaldson [mailto:francis.donaldson(at)pfa.org.uk] Sent: 06 July 2007 16:25 To: David.Corbett Cc: Brian Hope Subject: RE: Europa update Dear David Following the tragic accident with G-HOFC, in conjunction with Europa Aircraft we have carried out a safety study for the Europa rear wing attachment and tailplane system as a whole and this has resulted in various modifications being planned. These do not necessarily reflect the actual course of events in the structural failure of G-HOFC, which is still under investigation. The modifications which are currently being compiled achieve the following: 1.. On Classics only, check centrality of rear wing pins in hard-point, fit new rear wing pins with longer threaded portion and fit washer and nut on the inside, behind the existing hard-point. This involves making a recess in the bottom skin locally for access, refilling with foam piece afterwards and patching skin locally. 2.. On Classics and XS, ovalise the pip pin holes in the ends of the tailplane torque tube to prevent the pip-pin picking up actuating torque loads. Add an extra pip-pin recess of an improved design to each tail undersurface which will provide a reliable secondary retention system to prevent the tailplane half moving outboard if the sleeve should become disbonded. In the process of forming the new pip-pin recesses, key the sleeves into the structure to help prevent them becoming disbonded. Pip-pin will still enter tailplane from above. Recess in bottom surface can be filled afterwards for cosmetic purposes leaving tailplane looking as previously. Alternatively, the Europa club mod for improved sleeve retention can be incorporated at build. 3.. On Classics and XS, add placards to the tailplanes adjacent to the pip-pin holes calling attention to the need to check presence of pip-pins and engagement of anti-balance tab pins before flight. The modifications will provide full details and, where needed, modified parts. Due to the amount of interest expressed by owners in the use of Loctite to prevent slop in the torque tube pinned joints, Europa Aircraft are also experimenting with the use of Loctite to see if this seems a viable proposition. Alternatively, we are also looking into the possibility of adding hidden stops to the tailplanes to contact simultaneously with the mass-balance meeting its stops. These are intended to prevent the torque tube and its pinned joints experiencing shock loads when the mass balance hits its stops, and so avoid enlargement of the torque tube pin holes causing slop in the mass balance arm and slop between the two tailplane halves. Best regards Francis Donaldson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 07, 2007
From: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Fuel hose
Dear Europaphiles, This is the article on fuel hose which refers to the properties of SAE 30R9 hose which is available in the US at NAPA and Autozone stores.stores. See http://www.gates.com/common/downloads/files/Gates/brochure/TechTipsForm.pdf Cheers, John N262WF, mono XS, 912S Mooresville, North Carolina ORIGINAL MESSAGE <>Subject: Re: Europa-List: N81EU incident - the culprit From: "danbish" <danbish(at)norwalktucson.com> Richard, I found a post on the EAA site some time ago about using Gates R9 fuel injection hose instead of the standard stuff which is usually sold in the states as R7, or some variance thereof. The R9 has a Teflon sheath inside the line that is supposed to be much more long lasting and theoretically wouldn't have to be replaced as often. I used it everywhere I had a need for 1/4" or 3/8" hose that was too tight to use versatube aluminum or where I had a need for 1/2" hose (just at the pumps) since I was unable to locate R9 in 1/2". But it ain't cheap; about $8 a foot. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Europa Club Italian Tour
Date: Jul 08, 2007
The Tour of Italy is due to take place between 25 August and 2 September. There are places for two or possibly three more planes on the trip, and I am keen to hear from anyone interested now so that we can make our plans with everyone in the loop. The plan is to make this trip rather like the Tour de France, that is a fairly gentle trip without anything especially challenging, with generally a single flight daily, concentrating on getting to interesting places with time to look around them, and enjoy the culture, wine and food and shopping of the country - basically the sort of thing that we hope will appeal to wives as well as just pilots! It could also be suitable for someone new to foreign touring as we will be able to give any support necessary with things like flight plans, customs, foreign RT, route planning, etc. Should we still be on the current regime of needing re-inspecting every 10 hrs there will be a tail inspector on the trip to keep you legal. Anyone interested please contact me within the next week, by email or tel 01454 260542 Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Morgans" <themorgans(at)fairadsl.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Club Italian Tour
Date: Jul 09, 2007
Dear David I have read with much interest your messages over the past few months about your various trips to Europe. I co-own G-MFHI a classic trigear based art Rochester,Kent with two others (Peter Rees and Mike Bullen). I am very much an aviation rookie and have only made it as far as Beauvais and Le2K. I would be really interested in joining the next French trip. However I still have to work!! (as a GP) and obviously cannot take leave at short notice. So I was wondering if, as 2008, approaches I could have advanced warning of the intended trip timings so I could prebook my holiday slot at the practice (assuming that you are still going to go next year). I think that with the support of experienced pilots it would be a very valuable and enjoyable learning experience for my colleagues and I. Very many thanks Andrew Morgan ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Club Italian Tour > > > The Tour of Italy is due to take place between 25 August and 2 September. > There are places for two or possibly three more planes on the trip, and I > am > keen to hear from anyone interested now so that we can make our plans with > everyone in the loop. > The plan is to make this trip rather like the Tour de France, that > is a fairly gentle trip without anything especially challenging, with > generally a single flight daily, concentrating on getting to interesting > places with time to look around them, and enjoy the culture, wine and food > and shopping of the country - basically the sort of thing that we hope > will > appeal to wives as well as just pilots! It could also be suitable for > someone new to foreign touring as we will be able to give any support > necessary with things like flight plans, customs, foreign RT, route > planning, etc. Should we still be on the current regime of needing > re-inspecting every 10 hrs there will be a tail inspector on the trip to > keep you legal. > Anyone interested please contact me within the next week, by email > or > tel 01454 260542 > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Subject: Use of heat gun
Date: Jul 09, 2007
I have a hinge mounted on the aileron about 1/16 from where I want it. I need to move it. The rivets drilled out easily but the manual had me use flox in addition to the rivets. In other words, the hinge is solidly floxed to the aileron. I know you can use a heat gun to remove it but I am reluctant to put too much heat to it. First, is a hair dryer adequate or do I need to purchase a heat gun? Second, what is the danger of damaging the aileron if the hinge is heated? It should be fairly easy to heat the hinge to a higher temprature than the underlling fiberglass, is there someting I need to do to protect the epoxy in the area of the hinge from the heat from the gun? Any thoughts from those who have been through it would be appreciated. Jim Puglise A-283, FL
I have a hinge mounted on the aileron about 1/16 from where I want it. I need to move it. The rivets drilled out easily but the manual had me use flox in addition to the rivets. In other words, the hinge is solidly floxed to the aileron. I know you can use a heat gun to remove it but I am reluctant to put too much heat to it. First, is a hair dryer adequate or do I need to purchase a heat gun? Second, what is the danger of damaging the aileron if the hinge is heated? It should be fairly easy to heat the hinge to a higher temprature than the underlling fiberglass, is there someting I need to do to protect the epoxy in the area of the hinge from the heat from the gun?

Any thoughts from those who have been through it would be appreciated.

Jim Puglise A-283, FL

________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Use of heat gun
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Jul 09, 2007
Hi Jim, Use a soldering iron, the heat will go where it matters and nowhere else. Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 09, 2007
Subject: Re: Use of heat gun
From: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Jim Removing hinges: "Any thoughts from those who have been through it would be appreciated." I recently needed to remove hinges from my rudder. I too had concerns about heat damage. I never got to heating, I supported and 1 good whack on a piece of maple that was laying on the hinge removed it just fine. I had my hinges sanded right through plating, the flox for most part remained on aluminium! I wanted to move the rudder to the starboard a bit, so added 2 BID and 0625" G-10 spacers under hinges. I replaced the side of the hinge with rivet holes, refilled the rivet holes on the rudder and drilled new holes through all. Worked great. I used Redux/Flox to rebond hinges, and Redux/floxed the rivet heads then put a very thin layer (lightweight model airplane cloth) of Redux/fiberglass/peelply to cover the heads to prepare for filling. A neat trick I wish I incorporated in whole aeroplane is to make sure to mount half hinges on the movable control surface. This way you can pinch hinge pin and force wear in the half of hinge that has nutplates on them that is much easier to replace than going through what you are going through on a finished part. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Use of heat gun
Date: Jul 09, 2007
Jim, I don't know how a 1/16 error would require all this work, unless it is recessed too far and binding, but here is an instruction I gave one of my clients recently: At my shop, we have had to remove a number of misplace hinges. Use a soldering gun (Weller is good) of about 40 watts, the heat gun will damage too large of an area for my liking. Clean up the flox and epoxy buildup on the ends of the hinge so you can just see the buried side without getting into the glass fiber. Heat the metal hinge only, and pry it up carefully. I use a flat Exacto knife to use as a pry bar and begin heating on one end of the hinge. I watch to ensure the glass is not changing color from excess heat and do not use so much force to distort the glass. Keep the other side of the glass surface cool by using a wet paper towel. Once the hinge starts to move, you can just pull on the hinge or grab it with pliers. I never reuse the hinge. Then do a fiberglass repair of the area. Your best efforts have weakened the glass anyway so just suck it up and do it. That means sanding it down on both sides and rebuilding the area with 8 oz. glass and flox. Peel ply and inspect. Then start over on the hinge placement. It sounds like a tedious project and it is. I am anal about ensuring the repairs are structurally strong, hence the lack of desire to just heat the pee out of it and yank it off, reposition and flox mentality, although it has been done many times. I hope this helps. Bud Yerly Custom Flight. ----- Original Message ----- From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net<mailto:jimpuglise(at)comcast.net> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:49 PM Subject: Europa-List: Use of heat gun I have a hinge mounted on the aileron about 1/16 from where I want it. I need to move it. The rivets drilled out easily but the manual had me use flox in addition to the rivets. In other words, the hinge is solidly floxed to the aileron. I know you can use a heat gun to remove it but I am reluctant to put too much heat to it. First, is a hair dryer adequate or do I need to purchase a heat gun? Second, what is the danger of damaging the aileron if the hinge is heated? It should be fairly easy to heat the hinge to a higher temprature than the underlling fiberglass, is there someting I need to do to protect the epoxy in the area of the hinge from the heat from the gun? Any thoughts from those who have been through it would be appreciated. Jim Puglise A-283, FL http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List avigator?Europa-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Schultz" <rschultz5(at)houston.rr.com>
Subject: Anyone going to Oshkosh?
Date: Jul 09, 2007
Bud and others, I will be bringing 262AE to the big show once again. I plan to arrive the Friday or Saturday before (if it ever stops raining in Texas!). I will most likely park on the flight line (Homebuilt parking) and camp in the main camp ground. ( better showers and near the camp store) I will be at the forum and available most days walking the flight line and taking in the sights. If anyone is interested in getting together for a cold one after the airshow one day we could all meet up at the bar just north of the approach end to runway 9. I think it is called the charcoal pit or something like that. It has a nice little deck facing the runway and good food as well. My cell number is 713-703-2156 Hope to see everyone at Oshkosh! Rich Schultz N262AE _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Europa-List: Anyone going to Oshkosh? Europa Owners, I will be hosting a Europa Forum on Thursday the 26th of July from 4:00 - 5:15 P.M. at Pavilion 1 for all Europa Owners and intersted parties. My thanks to Jim Butcher and others who have helped me to come show the flag and share what news I have as the new distributor for Europa. I will close my shop and join you to answer any questions on how the company is doing and any questions on construction, as I have had the opportunity to help a few of you from construction thru flight test. So please, bring your questions, pictures and war stories to share. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Europa Distributor and fellow owner. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: UK PFA news - Europa safety mods
Date: Jul 10, 2007
Hi! David/Andy/Roger Concerning Davids message below and the intentions re:- the aft wing lift pins being replaced and retained by internal nuts... IMHO to invade and so access the location would be less structural disturbance (also cosmetically easier) if the access was made through the wing to flap close out outboard of the main wing closeout/rib thereby preserving the integrity of the upper and lower wing surfaces. Would you kindly ensure that this suggestion is addressed and calculated prior to finalising the access through the wing surface options? Respectfully we were asked for contributions of ideas. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG (almost ready for flight test permit application with the 914 now installed) Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David.Corbett Sent: 06 July 2007 22:19 Subject: Europa-List: UK PFA news - Europa safety mods Wearing my UK PFA Executive Committee and Europa Club committee hats, I asked Francis Donaldson (PFA Chief Engineer, for those of you overseas who do not know) earlier this week if he could release a progress report on the proposed Europa factory/PFA modifications to be incorporated in UK Europae following the tragic accident to G-HOFC. You will see Francis's reply below. However, before you read it, I must ask you all to consider some other factors which Francis passed to me in a second e-mail, and confirmed by voicemail whilst I was at a funeral this afternoon. 1 We are all aware that UK AAIB are shortly to issue a Special Bulletin about the G-HOFC accident. Francis tells me that this Bulletin is not expected to give any firm conclusion about the accident - investigations are still ongoing into the very complex factors involved - and the Bulletin will basically only draw attention to the Flight Safety Bulletins issued by the PFA (see next paragraph). If the AAIB Bulletin reports as normal "Special's" do, I hope that we will at least be told publicly the scale of the damage/destruction that occurred to G-HOFC, even if no conclusions can yet be given. 2 Some Europae, like mine, have passed the inspections required by UK Europa Flight Safety Bulletins 006 and 007, but are grounded because the tailplane pip pin recesses have not been built to the dimensions in the build manual - in many cases, the dimensions are smaller, especially around the joint between the recess and the upper skin. Owners such as myself are obviously frustrated that we cannot fly but, quite understandably, Francis asks that those of us in a similar position to mine wait for the tailplane pip pin mod to come out, and do not chase PFA Engineering for individual special attention. As we can all appreciate, PFA Engineering have been severely overloaded by the investigations, and the resulting mod design work involved, that arises from this accident, and other PFA aircraft types are suffering as a result of these pressures on PFA Engineering. This situation has not been helped by the sad loss, to a job in Australia, of our recent and excellent recruit to the engineering team, Kerry Ashcroft; so PFA are short of an engineer again. 3 The proposed mods (outlined below) are currently with Europa (2004) Ltd being formatted. There will, of course, be a lead time on the supply of some mod kit parts - especially the longer wing rear pins required for Classic aircraft. I will have a discussion with Roger or John early next week to see whether they are yet prepared to go public as to the timescale for issuing the mod kits. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dynon
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Jul 10, 2007
The webserver is dead, is the company ok? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Creighton Smith" <crouton(at)well.com>
Subject: Classic airfoil twist
Date: Jul 10, 2007
We took over a project and are concerned about airfoil twist. Measured from 3 points: LE root, LE tip, TE root all on the same plane, the TE tip is 0.60 inch elevated (twist) Based on the info in Don Dykins' book (constant 1.5 degree twist) and the formula: Twist (inches)=chordx(sin 1.5deg) We get a spec of 1.0 in twist@40in chord. This gives us about 0.9deg twist. This spec gives me pause and may indeed be dangerous at stall. Remember, we are talking about a classic wing here. What have other classic builders discovered as their actual twist values? What has been done to compensate/remedy the situation? I would hate to have to throw these wings away. Creighton Smith ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject: Fw: Oshkosh lunch bunch!
Date: Jul 10, 2007
Subject: Oshkosh lunch bunch! From: Bud Yerly Fellow Europa Builders, For those of you attending Oshkosh, it would be great to have a place to meet and greet as well as having a contact list of those of us attending to facilitate a rejoin. The forum is a great way to get everyone in a discussion group, but lunch is more open and pleasant, and a watering hole in the evening even better. I have talked with a couple of you, and a well used method of joining up was at the message board at about 11:30 local to form up and go to lunch. There we could share ideas and war stories. In the evening we could get together for refreshment to clear the dust of the day (responsibly of course). It would be convenient if we all could list our phone numbers and dates of attendance so we could have a handy reference upon arrival. Tack your name and number down on this email and I will publish a list prior to the show. Name Cell Dates Type Europa Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 Tri gear Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 Tri gear John Banhagel 623 628-2774 21-27 Tri gear ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: Oshkosh lunch bunch!
Date: Jul 10, 2007
You can add me to the list Bud, Brian Davies, cell (UK) 44 792 1083 599, 25-28, Trigear (but I dont think I will fly in :-) ) _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: 10 July 2007 17:00 Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Oshkosh lunch bunch! Subject: Oshkosh lunch bunch! From: Bud Yerly Fellow Europa Builders, For those of you attending Oshkosh, it would be great to have a place to meet and greet as well as having a contact list of those of us attending to facilitate a rejoin. The forum is a great way to get everyone in a discussion group, but lunch is more open and pleasant, and a watering hole in the evening even better. I have talked with a couple of you, and a well used method of joining up was at the message board at about 11:30 local to form up and go to lunch. There we could share ideas and war stories. In the evening we could get together for refreshment to clear the dust of the day (responsibly of course). It would be convenient if we all could list our phone numbers and dates of attendance so we could have a handy reference upon arrival. Tack your name and number down on this email and I will publish a list prior to the show. Name Cell Dates Type Europa Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 Tri gear Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 Tri gear John Banhagel 623 628-2774 21-27 Tri gear "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List 17:22 17:22 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2007
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh lunch bunch
Bud, As per your request: Tack your name and number down on this email and I will publish a list prior to the show. Name Cell Dates Type Europa Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 Tri gear Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 Tri gear John Banhagel 623 628-2774 21-27 Tri gear Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27 Monowheel Good building and great flying, Bob Borger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2007
Subject: Re: Steorn Orbo free energy motor going live today 6PM London!
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Glenn...wuz happenen? > Steorn Orbo: canceled > > Posted Jul 6th 2007 7:10AM by Thomas Ricker > Holy snakeoil Batman, The Steorn Orbo exhibition has been canceled. > According to a press release by Steorn CEO (and lead shyster) Sean > McCarthy, the company "will explore alternative dates for the public > demonstration." Yeah, right. If the heat from the lights was really an > issue for the on-site built device, why didn't they: 1) turn off the > lights, or 2) fly in the so-called working "free energy" device from > Dublin? After all, they still have 9 days left to exhibit. Lame. > On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 10:07 AM, glenn crowder wrote: > - Heres the Steorn Orbo free energy motor going live today 6PM London > for a 10 day > 24/7 videocast from four webcams.- The device will be shown lifting a > weight. > Claimed power is .5 watt /cc, good enough for an aircraft engine! > -http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/04/steorns-orbo-free-energy-machine- > demonstrated-tomorrow/ > - > > > See what you=92re getting into=85before you go there. Check it out! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Steorn Orbo free energy motor going live today 6PM London!
Date: Jul 10, 2007
Sure looks like a dud for now anyway! They have a pretty entertaining fo rum. Check out the overunity hamster! http://www.steorn.com/forum/ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:42:20 -0700Subject: Re: Europa-List: Steorn Orbo free energy motor going live today 6PM London!From: fklein(at)orcasonline.comT o: europa-list(at)matronics.com Glenn...wuz happenen? Steorn Orbo: canceled Posted Jul 6th 2007 7:10AM by Thomas Ricker Holy snak eoil Batman, The Steorn Orbo exhibition has been canceled. According to a p ress release by Steorn CEO (and lead shyster) Sean McCarthy, the company "w ill explore alternative dates for the public demonstration." Yeah, right. I f the heat from the lights was really an issue for the on-site built device , why didn't they: 1) turn off the lights, or 2) fly in the so-called worki ng "free energy" device from Dublin? After all, they still have 9 days left to exhibit. Lame. On Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 10:07 AM, glenn crowder wrote: Heres the Steorn Orbo free energy motor going live today 6PM London for a 10 day24/7 videocast from four webcams. The device will be shown lifting a weight.Claimed power is .5 watt /cc, good enough for an aircraft engine! http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/04/steorns-orbo-free-energy-machine-demonst rated-tomorrow/ ============= _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one pla ce! Find it! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 10, 2007
From: "Laura Farmer" <welshlaura(at)gmail.com>
Subject: AAIB Special Bulletin
Hi All The AAIB have informed us the Special Bulletin will be published on their website tomorrow - not that it tells us anything new I'm afraid. Regards, Laura Farmer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bryan allsop <bryanallsop(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Proposed Doth for William
Date: Jul 10, 2007
For those who may be wondering if there has been any more progress with the proposed Doth to recognise William's participation in the Europa scene, he re is an update. We will be having one. To allow working members to join in, Paddy Clarke an d I will arrange for it to take place on the first appropriate Sunday. With so many Europas being grounded waiting for something to happen with the pi p pin problem, we cannot be more specific, and the days keep ticking by. We have decided to wait until everyone is flying again before making any more plans. The proposed venue is Shobdon, north of Hereford. This is the a fairly cent ral airfield, close to William's area, and I understand that Paul was a mem ber there. It is likely that Shobdon will be offering a free landing for th e occasion. Regards to all. Bryan Allsop _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine=92s 2007 editors=92 choice for best web mail=97award-winning Wi ndows Live Hotmail. ration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Doth for William
Date: Jul 10, 2007
Thank you Brian for the update. I would like to join in as I had been looking forward to DOTHs now that I have my aircraft flying (well at least before this recent grounding). Let me know the date as soon as you are able. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: Proposed Doth for William
Date: Jul 10, 2007
Hi Bryan Kate and I get married at the end of July and will then be away in USA and Canada on holiday for most of August, but let us know when the DOTH is scheduled to take place and we do our very best to attend if we are back in the country. If not we will certainly be thinking of you all. Kind Regards Alan _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bryan allsop Sent: 10 July 2007 22:01 Subject: Europa-List: Proposed Doth for William For those who may be wondering if there has been any more progress with the proposed Doth to recognise William's participation in the Europa scene, here is an update. We will be having one. To allow working members to join in, Paddy Clarke and I will arrange for it to take place on the first appropriate Sunday. With so many Europas being grounded waiting for something to happen with the pip pin problem, we cannot be more specific, and the days keep ticking by. We have decided to wait until everyone is flying again before making any more plans. The proposed venue is Shobdon, north of Hereford. This is the a fairly central airfield, close to William's area, and I understand that Paul was a member there. It is likely that Shobdon will be offering a free landing for the occasion. Regards to all. Bryan Allsop _____ PC Magazine=92s 2007 editors=92 choice for best web mail=97award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. HYPERLINK migrati on_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707"Check it out! "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/ Nav igator?Europa-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 10/07/2007 17:44 10/07/2007 17:44 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dynon
Date: Jul 11, 2007
From: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz>
They are back online... but no new software release yet. Tony ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: AAIB Report
Date: Jul 11, 2007
The AAIB report on G-HOFC is now at http://www.aaib.gov.uk/home/index.cfm under Latest News, S3/2007. David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Trevpond(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 11, 2007
Subject: Re: Proposed Doth for William
Hi Brian, I shall be there. Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "karelvranken" <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Club Italian Tour
Date: Jul 11, 2007
David, By live and behavior I want to participate in the Italian Tour next August 25th. I will join you the first day on the continent. From my location EBBL in Belgium it is easy to join your first night stop. You will let me know in time where it is and if you take the mediterranian route through France or the Alps through Germany and Austria. At the moment F-PKRL will have only 1 person on board, but maybe my grand son will go with me. Let's hope the weather will cooperate. Best regards, Karel Vranken # 447 Mono XS 912 ULS Airmaster CS. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 12:38 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Club Italian Tour > > > The Tour of Italy is due to take place between 25 August and 2 September. > There are places for two or possibly three more planes on the trip, and I > am > keen to hear from anyone interested now so that we can make our plans with > everyone in the loop. > The plan is to make this trip rather like the Tour de France, that > is a fairly gentle trip without anything especially challenging, with > generally a single flight daily, concentrating on getting to interesting > places with time to look around them, and enjoy the culture, wine and food > and shopping of the country - basically the sort of thing that we hope > will > appeal to wives as well as just pilots! It could also be suitable for > someone new to foreign touring as we will be able to give any support > necessary with things like flight plans, customs, foreign RT, route > planning, etc. Should we still be on the current regime of needing > re-inspecting every 10 hrs there will be a tail inspector on the trip to > keep you legal. > Anyone interested please contact me within the next week, by email > or > tel 01454 260542 > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 2007
From: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh lunch bunch
Another add: > > Tack your name and number down on this email and I will publish a list > prior to the show. > > Name Cell Dates Type Europa > Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 Tri gear > Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 Tri gear > John Banhagel 623 628-2774 21-27 Tri > gear Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27 Monowheel Pete Zutrauen 613-850-5551 21-27 "pile of parts" (potential future Monowheel) Cheers, Pete ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 2007
From: Rick Stockton <aireupora(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh lunch bunch
Peter Zutrauen wrote: Another add: Tack your name and number down on this email and I will publish a list prior to the show. Name Cell Dates Type Europa Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 Tri gear Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 Tri gear John Banhagel 623 628-2774 21-27 Tri gear Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27 Monowheel Rick Stockton 707-330-1717 23-29 Tri gear Pete Zutrauen 613-850-5551 21-27 pile of parts" (potential future Monowheel) Cheers, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 2007
From: Rick Stockton <aireupora(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Anyone going to Oshkosh?
Rich, I'll be showing up on the 24th, 707-303-1717 Richard Schultz wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Bud and others, I will be bringing 262AE to the big show once again. I plan to arrive the Friday or Saturday before (if it ever stops raining in Texas!). I will most likely park on the flight line (Homebuilt parking) and camp in the main camp ground. ( better showers and near the camp store) I will be at the forum and available most days walking the flight line and taking in the sights. If anyone is interested in getting together for a cold one after the airshow one day we could all meet up at the bar just north of the approach end to runway 9. I think it is called the charcoal pit or something like that. It has a nice little deck facing the runway and good food as well. My cell number is 713-703-2156 Hope to see everyone at Oshkosh! Rich Schultz N262AE --------------------------------- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Europa-List: Anyone going to Oshkosh? Europa Owners, I will be hosting a Europa Forum on Thursday the 26th of July from 4:00 - 5:15 P.M. at Pavilion 1 for all Europa Owners and intersted parties. My thanks to Jim Butcher and others who have helped me to come show the flag and share what news I have as the new distributor for Europa. I will close my shop and join you to answer any questions on how the company is doing and any questions on construction, as I have had the opportunity to help a few of you from construction thru flight test. So please, bring your questions, pictures and war stories to share. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Europa Distributor and fellow owner. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dynon
From: "milnera" <alan_milner(at)totalise.co.uk>
Date: Jul 12, 2007
Tony, it's out now, looks good too. Alan Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dynon
Date: Jul 12, 2007
From: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz>
>>> Tony, it's out now, looks good too..... I've just downloaded it and now have to wait until the end of my day so I can go home and upload it to the D180! I'm just working on a code change which will permit my fuel gauge sender to be used as an input into the D180 - in effect making my sender emulate a capacitance probe. Dynon have been really helpful with getting me information on how their inputs are designed which has made my job much easier. Tony ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all
From: "milnera" <alan_milner(at)totalise.co.uk>
Date: Jul 12, 2007
G-REJP finally took to the air this Monday under the very professional hands of John Brownlow at Cambridge, UK. It was a long slog but always enjoyable - OK maybe not the mountain of sanding I left until the end :) Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way with advice and tips. In particular a big thanks to Tony Kay, my PFA inspector who kept me on track and had a seemingly supernatural ability to anticipate my mistakes. He's the scary one in the hat coarsening up the prop as I was smiling too much to touch a screwdriver. http://www.antsol.com/europaphotos.nsf/plinks/AMIR-74ZUDR Alan. XS Trigear, 912ULS, PV50, Dynon panel, Cambridge. UK Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk>
Subject: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all
Date: Jul 12, 2007
Congratulations Alan, A very pretty aircraft. You must be itching to get your hands on it! Just for the records, can you please send me the final build hours, empty weight, prop details, plus any other significnat mods that you carried out. Best regards Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of milnera Sent: 11 July 2007 23:56 Subject: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all --> G-REJP finally took to the air this Monday under the very professional hands of John Brownlow at Cambridge, UK. It was a long slog but always enjoyable - OK maybe not the mountain of sanding I left until the end :) Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way with advice and tips. In particular a big thanks to Tony Kay, my PFA inspector who kept me on track and had a seemingly supernatural ability to anticipate my mistakes. He's the scary one in the hat coarsening up the prop as I was smiling too much to touch a screwdriver. http://www.antsol.com/europaphotos.nsf/plinks/AMIR-74ZUDR Alan. XS Trigear, 912ULS, PV50, Dynon panel, Cambridge. UK Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org 17:44 17:44 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tony Wickens" <tonywickens(at)btconnect.com>
Subject: Re: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all
Date: Jul 12, 2007
Congratulations Alan - Let me have some pictures for the Flyer if you have time between rain showers! Regards Tony editor(at)europaclub.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 8:40 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all > > Congratulations Alan, > > A very pretty aircraft. You must be itching to get your hands on it! > > Just for the records, can you please send me the final build hours, empty > weight, prop details, plus any other significnat mods that you carried > out. > > Best regards > > Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of milnera > Sent: 11 July 2007 23:56 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all > > --> > > G-REJP finally took to the air this Monday under the very professional > hands > of John Brownlow at Cambridge, UK. > > It was a long slog but always enjoyable - OK maybe not the mountain of > sanding I left until the end :) > > Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way with advice and tips. In > particular a big thanks to Tony Kay, my PFA inspector who kept me on track > and had a seemingly supernatural ability to anticipate my mistakes. > He's the scary one in the hat coarsening up the prop as I was smiling too > much to touch a screwdriver. > > http://www.antsol.com/europaphotos.nsf/plinks/AMIR-74ZUDR > > Alan. XS Trigear, 912ULS, PV50, Dynon panel, Cambridge. UK > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > 17:44 > > > 17:44 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan" <alan_milner(at)totalise.co.uk>
Subject: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all
Date: Jul 12, 2007
Thanks Brian For the record: Build time: 2400 hours !! Kit: 582T Weight: 860 PFA Inspector: Tony Kay Painted by: Murray Flint - Kings Lymm Decals: Paul Sistern - www.partsforaircrafts.co.uk Interior: Europa supplied kit Prop : PV50 with constant speed controller - 64inch Engine: 912ULS Panel: Dynon D100 EFIS, D10 EMS, AVMAP IV GPS, garmin SL40 com and gtx320a transponder - trutrak digitrak wing leveler Mods: Europa factory: - cockpit width increase - door gas strut - nosegear springs - finger brakes - just fitting the matco cylinders today - 'given up on the old ones - all the usual mandatory mods Europa club: - removable metal panels - cap fuel sender PFA mods: - trutrak digitrak autopilot - andair fuel tap, dynon fuel pressure sender, replacement of sight gauge nylon vent tubing with 5052 ali tubing (so the interior does not have to be removed when replacing fuel hoses) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies Sent: 12 July 2007 08:41 Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all Congratulations Alan, A very pretty aircraft. You must be itching to get your hands on it! Just for the records, can you please send me the final build hours, empty weight, prop details, plus any other significnat mods that you carried out. Best regards Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of milnera Sent: 11 July 2007 23:56 Subject: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all --> G-REJP finally took to the air this Monday under the very professional hands of John Brownlow at Cambridge, UK. It was a long slog but always enjoyable - OK maybe not the mountain of sanding I left until the end :) Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way with advice and tips. In particular a big thanks to Tony Kay, my PFA inspector who kept me on track and had a seemingly supernatural ability to anticipate my mistakes. He's the scary one in the hat coarsening up the prop as I was smiling too much to touch a screwdriver. http://www.antsol.com/europaphotos.nsf/plinks/AMIR-74ZUDR Alan. XS Trigear, 912ULS, PV50, Dynon panel, Cambridge. UK Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org 17:44 17:44 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 2007
From: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh lunch bunch
Tack your name and number down on this email and I will publish a list prior to the show. Name Cell Dates Type Europa Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 Tri gear Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 Tri gear John Banhagel 623 628-2774 21-27 Tri gear Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27 Monowheel Rick Stockton 707-330-1717 23-29 Tri gear Pete Zutrauen 613-850-5551 21-27 pile of parts" (potential future Monowheel) John Wigney 704-231-7865 23-28 Mono XS - at 'Home Built Camping.' ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Gregory" <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 12, 2007
To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the route grip of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 12, 2007
Mike, Would it not be better for the club to obtain 3 or 4 torque tubes from the factory (could be just stock tube). We could then do the layups on the tailplanes in the temperature and humidity controlled comfort of the workshop. Is there still a Mod to the wing rear attachment point to come?? regards, Mike Parkin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the route grip of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 23/06/2007 11:08 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "karelvranken" <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all
Date: Jul 12, 2007
Congratulations Alan, You are just in time for the good weather coming. By the way, can you send me a copy of the PFA acceptance of the Trutrak digitrak wingleveler? Because I have a French registration F-PKRL and they (french DGAC) will accept the modification if PFA accepted the mod. Until now only the Navaid was registrated as a PFA modification and even if they had no objection for the Trutrak; I would be very pleased to have a copy wherein PFA agrees with the installation of a Trutrak. You may mail direct to karelvranken(at)hotmail.com Best regards, happy landings and be careful, Karel Vranken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <alan_milner(at)totalise.co.uk> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:59 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Gregory" <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Mike, You are quite right in realising that Mod 73 does not need to be done on an aeroplane if you have a tube or bar of the correct diameter to fit inside TP 6 while the lay up is being done. This could be an uninstalled torque tube or some other material that is a proper fit. A note of caution: I believe early and late torque tubes were supplied with slightly differing diameters. The Europa Club Committee have been considering setting up Mod centres where the necessary materials and expertise will be available, together with an inspector to sign off the work, although details have yet to be worked out. I understand the PFA are considering a separate modification to the wing rear attachment point. Regards Mike _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 12 July 2007 22:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike, Would it not be better for the club to obtain 3 or 4 torque tubes from the factory (could be just stock tube). We could then do the layups on the tailplanes in the temperature and humidity controlled comfort of the workshop. Is there still a Mod to the wing rear attachment point to come?? regards, Mike Parkin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike <mailto:m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com> Gregory Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1.Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2.Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3.Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer _____ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Does anybody know the exact diameter of the tailplane torque tube (ours is circa 1994 - Kit 49). In the absence of a torque tube I would have thought a piece of Jewsons drainpipe built up (to the correct diameter) with electricians tape would do the job. With hindsight we could have done Mod 62 and Mod 73 at the same time while the tube was out of the tailplane. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 1:03 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike, You are quite right in realising that Mod 73 does not need to be done on an aeroplane if you have a tube or bar of the correct diameter to fit inside TP 6 while the lay up is being done. This could be an uninstalled torque tube or some other material that is a proper fit. A note of caution: I believe early and late torque tubes were supplied with slightly differing diameters. The Europa Club Committee have been considering setting up Mod centres where the necessary materials and expertise will be available, together with an inspector to sign off the work, although details have yet to be worked out. I understand the PFA are considering a separate modification to the wing rear attachment point. Regards Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 12 July 2007 22:31 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike, Would it not be better for the club to obtain 3 or 4 torque tubes from the factory (could be just stock tube). We could then do the layups on the tailplanes in the temperature and humidity controlled comfort of the workshop. Is there still a Mod to the wing rear attachment point to come?? regards, Mike Parkin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1.Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2.Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3.Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Carl, I am not sure about the early kits but I have just measured my tube (mine was kit 454) at 1.499 inches (1.5 to most of us!). I am just off to my local steel merchant to see if he has any old 1.5 inch pipe left in stock. I have a short piece of old imperial plastic waste pipe that is exactly the right size - but not long enough. Brian Davies _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: 13 July 2007 09:11 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Does anybody know the exact diameter of the tailplane torque tube (ours is circa 1994 - Kit 49). In the absence of a torque tube I would have thought a piece of Jewsons drainpipe built up (to the correct diameter) with electricians tape would do the job. With hindsight we could have done Mod 62 and Mod 73 at the same time while the tube was out of the tailplane. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com"Mike Gregory Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 1:03 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike, You are quite right in realising that Mod 73 does not need to be done on an aeroplane if you have a tube or bar of the correct diameter to fit inside TP 6 while the lay up is being done. This could be an uninstalled torque tube or some other material that is a proper fit. A note of caution: I believe early and late torque tubes were supplied with slightly differing diameters. The Europa Club Committee have been considering setting up Mod centres where the necessary materials and expertise will be available, together with an inspector to sign off the work, although details have yet to be worked out. I understand the PFA are considering a separate modification to the wing rear attachment point. Regards Mike _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 12 July 2007 22:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Mike, Would it not be better for the club to obtain 3 or 4 torque tubes from the factory (could be just stock tube). We could then do the layups on the tailplanes in the temperature and humidity controlled comfort of the workshop. Is there still a Mod to the wing rear attachment point to come?? regards, Mike Parkin ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com"Mike Gregory Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:01 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1.Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2.Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3.Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer _____ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List 16:08 16:08 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the route grip of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by <http://www.mailscanner.info/> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon(at)sent.com>
Subject: mod 73 epoxy
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Just in case anyone has not got any in date epoxy resin / hardener to do mod 73, I have just bought some West 105/205 as specified from Shipsides Marine in Preston. 250g + 50g. for =A311.99 plus about =A34 carriage if you can=92t collect. Can be ordered via Ebay if you are so inclined. Just type west epoxy in the search field and look for the seller =91stuff4sailors=92. Also if anyone is stuck for bid or peel ply, I have a good quantity left over and would happily post some on. Richard Iddon G-RIXS Happy to be making progress at last. 12/07/2007 16:08 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Congratulations, Alan. Here's hoping you'll leave a few dead flies on it so as not to show up the rest of us in the hanger... Looking forward to seeing 'JP at some fly-ins. Best wishes Willie On 11 Jul 2007, at 23:56, milnera wrote: > > > G-REJP finally took to the air this Monday under the very > professional hands of John Brownlow at Cambridge, UK. > > It was a long slog but always enjoyable - OK maybe not the mountain > of sanding I left until the end :) > > Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way with advice and > tips. In particular a big thanks to Tony Kay, my PFA inspector who > kept me on track and had a seemingly supernatural ability to > anticipate my mistakes. > He's the scary one in the hat coarsening up the prop as I was > smiling too much to touch a screwdriver. > > http://www.antsol.com/europaphotos.nsf/plinks/AMIR-74ZUDR > > Alan. XS Trigear, 912ULS, PV50, Dynon panel, Cambridge. UK > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Congratulations Alan! Good work, and thanks for the detailed information about the plane. My kit's serial no is 18 higher then yours, so i will be following soon :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Oshkosh lunch bunch
Date: Jul 13, 2007
----- Original Message ----- From: John & Paddy Wigney Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:14 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Oshkosh lunch bunch Tack your name and number down on this email and I will publish a list prior to the show. Name Cell Dates Type Europa Bud Yerly 813 244-8354 24-27 Tri gear Rich Schultz 713-703-2156 21-27 Tri gear John Banhagel 623 628-2774 21-27 Tri gear Bob Borger 817-992-1117 21-27 Monowheel Rick Stockton 707-330-1717 23-29 Tri gear Pete Zutrauen 613-850-5551 21-27 pile of parts" (potential future Monowheel) John Wigney 704-231-7865 23-28 Mono XS - at 'Home Built Camping.' Michael Grass 586-822-0333 22-26 Trigera, driving in for the show ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Congratulations Alan, I wished I would be there. Started about the same time but still only half way there. Thanks for your website. Very good resource and motivation for other builder. Regards Michael Grass A266 Trigear, Detroit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <alan_milner(at)totalise.co.uk> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 8:59 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all > > Thanks Brian > > For the record: > > Build time: 2400 hours !! > Kit: 582T > Weight: 860 > PFA Inspector: Tony Kay > Painted by: Murray Flint - Kings Lymm > Decals: Paul Sistern - www.partsforaircrafts.co.uk > Interior: Europa supplied kit > > Prop : PV50 with constant speed controller - 64inch > Engine: 912ULS > > Panel: Dynon D100 EFIS, D10 EMS, AVMAP IV GPS, garmin SL40 com and gtx320a > transponder - trutrak digitrak wing leveler > > Mods: > Europa factory: > - cockpit width increase > - door gas strut > - nosegear springs > - finger brakes - just fitting the matco cylinders today - 'given up on > the > old ones > - all the usual mandatory mods > > Europa club: > - removable metal panels > - cap fuel sender > > PFA mods: > - trutrak digitrak autopilot > - andair fuel tap, dynon fuel pressure sender, replacement of sight gauge > nylon vent tubing with 5052 ali tubing (so the interior does not have to > be > removed when replacing fuel hoses) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies > Sent: 12 July 2007 08:41 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all > > > Congratulations Alan, > > A very pretty aircraft. You must be itching to get your hands on it! > > Just for the records, can you please send me the final build hours, empty > weight, prop details, plus any other significnat mods that you carried > out. > > Best regards > > Brian Davies, Europa Club membership sec. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of milnera > Sent: 11 July 2007 23:56 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: First flight - G-REJP - thanks to all > > --> > > G-REJP finally took to the air this Monday under the very professional > hands > of John Brownlow at Cambridge, UK. > > It was a long slog but always enjoyable - OK maybe not the mountain of > sanding I left until the end :) > > Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way with advice and tips. In > particular a big thanks to Tony Kay, my PFA inspector who kept me on track > and had a seemingly supernatural ability to anticipate my mistakes. > He's the scary one in the hat coarsening up the prop as I was smiling too > much to touch a screwdriver. > > http://www.antsol.com/europaphotos.nsf/plinks/AMIR-74ZUDR > > Alan. XS Trigear, 912ULS, PV50, Dynon panel, Cambridge. UK > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > 17:44 > > > 17:44 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Subject: Mod 73 and 10 hourly inspections
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Hello Peter/everyone, I just spoke with Roger at Europa to ask this same question, amongst others. His understanding, which he expects to be confirmed soon by a revised/new document from the PFA, is that full compliance with Mod 73 will supersede the requirement for recurring 10 hourly inspections of the tailplane. Please note the caveat and don't take this as gospel until we see it in writing from the PFA. Best wishes Willie Harrison On 13 Jul 2007, at 10:27, Pete Lawless wrote: > Hi Mike > > > Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the > requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? > > > Regards > > > Pete ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2007
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Carl, A055, circa 1998 measures exactly 1.50"... Jeff - Baby Blue Carl Pattinson wrote: > Does anybody know the exact diameter of the tailplane torque tube > (ours is circa 1994 - Kit 49). > > In the absence of a torque tube I would have thought a piece of > Jewsons drainpipe built up (to the correct diameter) with electricians > tape would do the job. > > With hindsight we could have done Mod 62 and Mod 73 at the same time > while the tube was out of the tailplane. > > Carl Pattinson > > G-LABS > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Gregory > *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, July 13, 2007 1:03 AM > *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > Mike, > > > > You are quite right in realising that Mod 73 does not need to be > done on an aeroplane if you have a tube or bar of the correct > diameter to fit inside TP 6 while the lay up is being done. This > could be an uninstalled torque tube or some other material that is > a proper fit. A note of caution: I believe early and late torque > tubes were supplied with slightly differing diameters. > > > > The Europa Club Committee have been considering setting up Mod > centres where the necessary materials and expertise will be > available, together with an inspector to sign off the work, > although details have yet to be worked out. > > > > I understand the PFA are considering a separate modification to > the wing rear attachment point. > > > > Regards > > > > Mike > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Mike Parkin > *Sent:* 12 July 2007 22:31 > *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > > Mike, > > > > Would it not be better for the club to obtain 3 or 4 torque tubes > from the factory (could be just stock tube). We could then do the > layups on the tailplanes in the temperature and humidity > controlled comfort of the workshop. > > Is there still a Mod to the wing rear attachment point to come?? > > > > regards, > > > > Mike Parkin > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Mike Gregory > > *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com > > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:01 PM > > *Subject:* Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > > To all Listers > > Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying > Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the > attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It > will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have > been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying > aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 > at issue 3. > > The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required > within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit > renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". > > There are three steps: > > 1.Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. > > 2.Modification of the underside of the tailplane by > constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for > tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club > Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being > retrofitted. > > 3.Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the > need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and > pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane > to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. > > Fly safely > > > > Mike > > Europa Club Safety Officer > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Gregory" <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Gregory" <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
All Further to my earlier message, here is Francis Donaldson's covering memo that was sent out with Mod 73 to all UK flying owners. The PFA is very conscious of the restriction imposed by the continuing need for ten-hourly inspections, even after Mod 73 is incorporated, and are working closely with the CAA to get the requirement extended and in due course eliminated. The PFA does not have the authority to change the 10 hour requirement, which is mandated for UK owners by the CAA, who are continuing to discuss the matter with the AAIB investigators as a matter of urgency. Meanwhile, Francis advises that any Europa owner who faces particular problems (such as a plan to go touring or remoteness from an inspector) as a result of the continuing 10-hour inspection requirement should contact PFA Engineering for assistance. It may be possible to authorise them as a temporary inspector in respect of FSB-006 to carry out the subsequent checks themselves. Regards Mike _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 13 July 2007 15:33 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Thanks, Mike. As you will have seen from my earlier posting, Roger thought otherwise (although it's obviously Francis, not Roger who makes the rules). Do you know if the PFA are proposing the 10 hour inspection, by an inspector, as an indefinite requirement? If so, it would limit the appeal of the Europa as a touring aircraft. Can we collectively pool our thoughts to counter propose a more practical inspection regime? Thanks for all your good work. Willie On 13 Jul 2007, at 15:33, Mike Gregory wrote: > Pete/All > > > I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod > 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of > the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent > me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has > brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an > attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I > believe this is important because I also understand from Francis > that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website > until next week. > > > I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the > PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it > clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not > required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This > applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a > trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer > and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that > failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment > for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the > integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be > cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. > > > Regards > > > Mike will > > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa- > list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless > Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > Hi Mike > > > Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the > requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? > > > Regards > > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa- > list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory > Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > To all Listers > > Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying > Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached > leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be > available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in > the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a > covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. > > The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within > the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, > whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". > > There are three steps: > > 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. > > 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by > constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes > that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod > 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. > > 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of > the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip > pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify > that Mod 73 has been complied with. > > Fly safely > > Mike > Europa Club Safety Officer > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Tailplane Retention.
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Well it looks like this problem is not going to be over anytime soon. I'm domestically grounded, having been flooded out in the June rains - I suspect it will be 2008 before G-JULZ flies again. It seems to me that Mod 73 is a 'sticking plaster' solution while they find something better. For once I totally support the PFA while they try and make our aircraft a safer machine. Here is an idea that might be fairly easy to implement. How about threaded bar going right through the torque shaft. Some nicely glassed reinforced recesses in the tip of each tailplane, a couple of nuts and some neat covers to hide it all. Just thinking out of the box....... Anyone got any better ideas. regards, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Gregory" <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Willie, We have now spoken on the phone - your message crossed with my posting explaining that it is not within the gift of the PFA to extend or eliminate the 10-hour inspection, but requires action by the CAA, who are not moving on this at the current stage of the AAIB investigation. I'm putting this message on the List so that others may share a more optimistic outlook about the way ahead. You are not the only one to express concern regarding the severity of the 10-hour restriction, on touring operations particularly. We are all hoping that the inspection intervals can be extended to 25 or 50 hours, or (preferably) eliminated. However, as the PFA receive reports from inspectors on the results of the 10-hourly inspections, they should soon learn whether there are many instances of aircraft passing one inspection and failing the next: if not, they should be able to use this evidence to recommend to the CAA that the intervals can be extended. Otherwise, they will certainly want to consider further measures to improve the integrity of the system so that frequent inspections are no longer needed. Best regards Mike will _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Harrison Sent: 13 July 2007 18:14 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Thanks, Mike. As you will have seen from my earlier posting, Roger thought otherwise (although it's obviously Francis, not Roger who makes the rules). Do you know if the PFA are proposing the 10 hour inspection, by an inspector, as an indefinite requirement? If so, it would limit the appeal of the Europa as a touring aircraft. Can we collectively pool our thoughts to counter propose a more practical inspection regime? Thanks for all your good work. Willie On 13 Jul 2007, at 15:33, Mike Gregory wrote: Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 13, 2007
I have one little niggle with the Mod73 as currently published. I was under the impression that layups around 90 degree corners was to be avoided. Glass cloth dosent like being bent around acute bends and usually results in the glass cloth lifting and causing an air pocket. I am referring to the glass cloth that is stippled to the sanded surface of the tailplane. Surely a stronger and cosmetically preferable solution would be to make a flox corner around the underside of the tailplane surface where it joins the top of the underside recess (or bottom if we are talking underside - it would be at the top when being worked on). By the time one has incorporated two layers of bid around the periphery of the recess and then glassed over it again the surface is certain to stand proud of the rest of the tailplane and leave an unsightly lump. If I have the choice I would prefer to prepare flox corners where the recess meets the tailplane surface and let the excess glass poke out of the recess till hardened. Then slice the excess glass away with a sharp knife till level with the tailplane surface. When the recess is finally filled with a lump of foam and glassed over, a further flox corner could be incorporated on the inside of the cavity (where it meets the surface). BTW a much more effective and simpler means of tailplane retention could have been achieved by drilling a hole through the tailplane from top to bottom through the root closeouts and dropping a 9" x 1/4" steel pin behind the torque drive plates (ie through the top skin, behind the drive plate either in front or behind the torque tube - or both and then through the bottom skin). Alternately a hole through the centre of the torque tube though this could have structural implications. A split pin or ring through the underside would be needed to secure it. Washers reduxed to the insides of the closeouts would ensure extra strength and prevent the pin from pulling through the tailplane surface. This would eliminate any possibility of the tailplane moving outboard during flight. Still, I guess its too late to consider that suggestion. Carl Pattinson G-LABS To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: What stops the pip pin from falling out after Mod 73?
Date: Jul 13, 2007
What I can't understand is after ovalizing the pip pin holes in the torq ue tube, what will then stop the pip pin from just sliding out. Am I missing something here? If the pip pin ba lls line up with the ovalized area, I can't see why they won't just potentially slide right out if given a chan ce. 2. On Classics and XS, ovalise the pip pin holes in the ends of the tailpl ane torque tube to prevent the pip-pin picking up actuating torque loads. Add an extra pip-pin recess of an improved design to each tail undersurface which will provide a reliable secondary retention system to prevent the ta ilplane half moving outboard if the sleeve should become disbonded. In the process of forming the new pip-pin recesses, key the sleeves into the struc ture to help prevent them becoming disbonded. Pip-pin will still enter tail plane from above. Recess in bottom surface can be filled afterwards for cos metic purposes leaving tailplane looking as previously. Alternatively, the Europa club mod for improved sleeve retention can be incorporated at build. _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine=92s 2007 editors=92 choice for best web mail=97award-winning Wi ndows Live Hotmail. ration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: What stops the pip pin from falling out after Mod 73?
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Oops - my bad! Just the torque tube holes would be ovalized, not on TP6. Duhh! What I can't understand is after ovalizing the pip pin holes in the torq ue tube, what will then stop the pip pin from just sliding out. Am I missing something here? If the pip pin ba lls line up with the ovalized area, I can't see why they won't just potentially slide right out if given a chan ce. 2. On Classics and XS, ovalise the pip pin holes in the ends of the tailpl ane torque tube to prevent the pip-pin picking up actuating torque loads. Add an extra pip-pin recess of an improved design to each tail undersurface which will provide a reliable secondary retention system to prevent the ta ilplane half moving outboard if the sleeve should become disbonded. In the process of forming the new pip-pin recesses, key the sleeves into the struc ture to help prevent them becoming disbonded. Pip-pin will still enter tail plane from above. Recess in bottom surface can be filled afterwards for cos metic purposes leaving tailplane looking as previously. Alternatively, the Europa club mod for improved sleeve retention can be incorporated at build. PC Magazine=92s 2007 editors=92 choice for best web mail=97award-winning Wi ndows Live Hotmail. Check it out! _________________________________________________________________ Missed the show?- Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. http://liveearth.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeremy Davey" <europaflyer_3(at)msn.com>
Subject: What stops the pip pin from falling out after Mod 73?
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Glenn, The pip-pin holes are in the torque-tube, which has the round-holed TP6 around it. It is the TP6 that retains the pip-pin. Regards, Jeremy From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of glenn crowder Sent: 13 July 2007 20:36 Subject: Europa-List: What stops the pip pin from falling out after Mod 73? What I can't understand is after ovalizing the pip pin holes in the torque tube, what will then stop the pip pin from just sliding out. Am I missing something here? If the pip pin balls line up with the ovalized area, I can't see why they won't just potentially slide right out if given a chance. 2. On Classics and XS, ovalise the pip pin holes in the ends of the tailplane torque tube to prevent the pip-pin picking up actuating torque loads. Add an extra pip-pin recess of an improved design to each tail undersurface which will provide a reliable secondary retention system to prevent the tailplane half moving outboard if the sleeve should become disbonded. In the process of forming the new pip-pin recesses, key the sleeves into the structure to help prevent them becoming disbonded. Pip-pin will still enter tailplane from above. Recess in bottom surface can be filled afterwards for cosmetic purposes leaving tailplane looking as previously. Alternatively, the Europa club mod for improved sleeve retention can be incorporated at build. _____ PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best web mail-award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. Check it out! on_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Tailplane Retention.
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Hi Mike, I guess you guys in the UK haven't got much choice on the matter. I certainly won't be rushing into yet another mod, apart from the ovalizing. All my fittings are completely tight, and the pin cannot possibly move sideways in my recess, and it cannot come out, because the lid is a marine brass drain plug fitting. My idea would have been to replace TP5 and TP6 with a one-piece tube, lets call it TP56. I think there is a simple way to remove the TP6 without damaging the foam, and the TP56 would be bedded in plenty of floxed redux. Just how strong does this have to be ? We still don't know anything about the damaged components in the accident plane. In order for the tailplanes to come off, both TP6 must have been loose, and the pip pin recesses must have been quite large to allow enough sideways movement. Just speculating. Karl >From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com> >Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >To: "Europa-List(at)Matronics.Com" >Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention. >Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:59:07 +0100 > >Well it looks like this problem is not going to be over anytime soon. I'm >domestically grounded, having been flooded out in the June rains - I >suspect it will be 2008 before G-JULZ flies again. It seems to me that Mod >73 is a 'sticking plaster' solution while they find something better. For >once I totally support the PFA while they try and make our aircraft a safer >machine. > >Here is an idea that might be fairly easy to implement. > >How about threaded bar going right through the torque shaft. Some nicely >glassed reinforced recesses in the tip of each tailplane, a couple of nuts >and some neat covers to hide it all. > >Just thinking out of the box....... Anyone got any better ideas. > >regards, > >Mike _________________________________________________________________ Tell MSN about your most memorable emails! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Tailplane Retention.
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Hi! Mike ...the threaded rod would need to "negotiate" past the central drive pins. What has happened to Stabilator retention mod. which I saw which has spring levers which drop behind the drive plates when rigging? Regards Bob Harrison. Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 13 July 2007 18:59 Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention. Well it looks like this problem is not going to be over anytime soon. I'm domestically grounded, having been flooded out in the June rains - I suspect it will be 2008 before G-JULZ flies again. It seems to me that Mod 73 is a 'sticking plaster' solution while they find something better. For once I totally support the PFA while they try and make our aircraft a safer machine. Here is an idea that might be fairly easy to implement. How about threaded bar going right through the torque shaft. Some nicely glassed reinforced recesses in the tip of each tailplane, a couple of nuts and some neat covers to hide it all. Just thinking out of the box....... Anyone got any better ideas. regards, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Tailplane Retention.
Date: Jul 14, 2007
That is true Bob, but the rod would not have to be in the centre of the tube to be effective. regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: R.C.Harrison To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:00 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention. Hi! Mike ...the threaded rod would need to "negotiate" past the central drive pins. What has happened to Stabilator retention mod. which I saw which has spring levers which drop behind the drive plates when rigging? Regards Bob Harrison. Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 13 July 2007 18:59 To: Europa-List(at)Matronics.Com Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention. Well it looks like this problem is not going to be over anytime soon. I'm domestically grounded, having been flooded out in the June rains - I suspect it will be 2008 before G-JULZ flies again. It seems to me that Mod 73 is a 'sticking plaster' solution while they find something better. For once I totally support the PFA while they try and make our aircraft a safer machine. Here is an idea that might be fairly easy to implement. How about threaded bar going right through the torque shaft. Some nicely glassed reinforced recesses in the tip of each tailplane, a couple of nuts and some neat covers to hide it all. Just thinking out of the box....... Anyone got any better ideas. regards, Mike - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 13/07/2007 15:41 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Subject: Re: Tailplane Retention.
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Very nice "outside the box" thinking Mike... Fred On Friday, July 13, 2007, at 09:46 PM, Mike Parkin wrote: > That is true Bob, but the rod would not have to be in the centre of > the tube to be effective. > - > regards, > - > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > > How about threaded bar going right through the torque shaft.- Some > nicely glassed reinforced recesses in the tip of each tailplane, a > couple of nuts and some neat covers to hide it all. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Price" <nicolaprice(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
14 Hantone HillSince I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Hi John, Whether mod 10672 has been incorporated should become clear from the paperwork. Mechanically you could try to pierce the foam between TP5&6 with a long pin. If there is glass instead of foam, you will probably be fine. Then the question remains who will sign it of. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
14 Hantone HillLook down inside each tailplane where the torque tube goes (using a torch). If you can see foam it hasnt been done. If not sure use a sharp implement to check. It should be annotated in the airframe logbook anyway. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Price To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham(at)btclick.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
14 Hantone HillJohn, It's dead easy to tell. Peer into the open end of the tailplane (you may need a torch/flashlight). If all you can see down the bore between TP5 and TP6 is blue foam - the mod has NOT been carried out. If you can see an unbroken lining of composite laminate - the mod HAS been carried out. The paperwork should record this. Contrary to Mike's memo, this mod is capable of being retro fitted (and would be the only solution I would trust) - but it would take a lot of careful work by a very competent composite craftsman. Might be a good time to start snapping up all those unstarted "Kit One - Tailplane kits" that are often advertised. Nigel Credibility Qualifyer: I'm the bloke that thought-up mod 10672! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Price Sent: 14 July 2007 08:29 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Stade Fly-In Sept. 1-2
From: "Europa91" <Eupa91(at)gmx.de>
Date: Jul 14, 2007
The Europa Fly-In in Stade (EDHS, near Hamburg) this year will take place Saturday to Sunday, September 1 to 2. Together with the local flying club Luftsportverein Guenther Grnhoff we would be glad to meet as many Europa flyers and friends as possible to come. We will have dinner on Saturday evening in nearby Agathenburg as usual. Accomodation can also be provided upon request. Please inform us on participation per email (see below) so we can make adequate provisions. Erich Gabbe, Kit no 91, still building Europa91(at)gmx.de Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123750#123750 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Hi Nigel, It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose bushes! :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2007
From: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed! Regards, Jan de Jong josok wrote: > > Hi Nigel, > It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose bushes! > :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham(at)btconnect.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst. What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the late '90s highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and proposing that the tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would have cost nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the manual. In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that could lead to a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up of the aircraft. No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them. When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full AAIB report will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to believe I'm on the money. m.v.g. Nigel -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de Jong Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed! Regards, Jan de Jong josok wrote: > > Hi Nigel, > It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a great idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose bushes! > :-) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
14 Hantone HillI think many Europa builders realised the stainless steel rings would cause a problem sooner or later and took steps to mitigate the problem (such as mod 10672). I scored each ring (TP6 sleeve) with a hacksaw at 45 degrees around the circumference and am pretty confident it is secure. There is also a flox ring surrounding the outside of the stainless steel ring which is bonded to the plywood sheet and I also have photos to prove it. Problem is it is bonded to the inboard surface of the plywood insert which under extreme loads could break away. Unfortunately the PFA have to assume the worst posible standard of build and come up with a failsafe remedy. Personally I think Mod 73 is a somewhat inelegant solution to the problem and we may yet see further amendments to this design. For my money I feel its weakness is that it relies on a relatively shallow lip to prevent a disbonded TP6 sleeve working its way inboard of the tailplane. I note from my own photos of the finished layups that about 8-10mm of TP6 protrudes beyond the outboard end of the plywood insert. Since major invasive surgery has been deemed necessary it might have been better to cut an aperture in the underside of the tailplane, cut away the surrounding foam from the outboard end of the TP6 sleeve and redux a retaining ring or plate onto the protruding end of the sleeve. Even then it would be impossible to guarantee the integrity of such a bond. At least Mod 73 should bring some of the poorer installations up to an acceptable and safe standard. Its a pity the original design couldnt have been better but then we all know hindsight is a wonderful thing. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: Nigel Graham To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:59 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 John, It's dead easy to tell. Peer into the open end of the tailplane (you may need a torch/flashlight). If all you can see down the bore between TP5 and TP6 is blue foam - the mod has NOT been carried out. If you can see an unbroken lining of composite laminate - the mod HAS been carried out. The paperwork should record this. Contrary to Mike's memo, this mod is capable of being retro fitted (and would be the only solution I would trust) - but it would take a lot of careful work by a very competent composite craftsman. Might be a good time to start snapping up all those unstarted "Kit One - Tailplane kits" that are often advertised. Nigel Credibility Qualifyer: I'm the bloke that thought-up mod 10672! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Price Sent: 14 July 2007 08:29 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident. I believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was finished in 1995. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham(at)btconnect.com> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst. > > What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the late '90s > highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and proposing that > the > tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would have > cost > nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the manual. > In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that could lead > to > a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up of the > aircraft. > No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them. > When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a > sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full AAIB > report > will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the > authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to believe I'm > on > the money. > > m.v.g. > > Nigel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de Jong > Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed! > Regards, > Jan de Jong > > josok wrote: >> >> Hi Nigel, >> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person for a >> great > idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about loose > bushes! >> :-) >> >> Regards, >> >> Jos Okhuijsen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
14 Hantone HillWhile there may be doubt whether the shallow lip on the inside of TP6 will be adequate as a tailplane retention, it is worth reading EA2004's reasoning behind Mod 73 carefully: Retention of the tailplane by TP6 (and the pip pin securing TP6 to the torque tube) AND a secondary retention by the pip pin and its surrounding composite structure alone, should the primary retention not hold. The mod is therefore as much a strengthening of the structure around the pip pin and a proper transfer of forces acting on the pip pin into the tailplane skin, as it is a mod for better bonding of TP6 to the tailplane. This is the reason why the instructions make a point of not removing any bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the event the pip pin ball should not open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would defeat that secondary retention function of the mod. As I understand it, this view is also reflected in FSB-006 Issue 3 section 5: Mod 73 need to be done if the upper pip pin recess does not satisfy the stated requirements. I think, however, that PFA ought to have required ovalization of the torque tube holes even if Mod 73 may be omitted if the requirements of Section 5 are complied with -ovalization should be done in any event, I think. Regards, Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
I have heard that there are still doubts in the AAIB investigation about whether the initial failure was the wing pin (with consequential failure of the tail) or the other way around. Hence we are being required to cover both hypotheses by mods and checks front and back. If it was indeed the wing pin which failed first - very big "if" - then the implication is that the tail could/would have then failed because it was subject to loads it had never been designed for (perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because there was anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential event, not a causal one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had failed then the aircraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail broke up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod would have saved the day. A supporting thought to this hypothesis is that the build quality around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known to have been poor. Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning from a Permit inspection when the wings would have been removed and replaced. Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the already compromised wing pin? Just a thought. Willie Harrison On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote: > > > Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident. > > I believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was > finished in 1995. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > >> >> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst. >> >> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the >> late '90s >> highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and >> proposing that the >> tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would >> have cost >> nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build instructions the >> manual. >> In my mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that >> could lead to >> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up >> of the >> aircraft. >> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them. >> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a >> sickening feeling that I knew what might have happened. The full >> AAIB report >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the >> authorities are looking closely at this component leads me to >> believe I'm on >> the money. >> >> m.v.g. >> >> Nigel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de >> Jong >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46 >> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 >> >> >> >> >> I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed! >> Regards, >> Jan de Jong >> >> josok wrote: >>> >>> Hi Nigel, >>> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person >>> for a great >> idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about >> loose >> bushes! >>> :-) >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
I wonder about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident aircraft. If the mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the slightest distu rbance in pitch could cause the elevator to become uncontrollable. This would be consisten t with the report of wild pitch excursions initially prior to the tail departing. Glenn> From: willie.harrison@tiny online.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: Sa List message posted by: William Harrison > > I have heard that there are still doubts in the AAIB investigation > ab out whether the initial failure was the wing pin (with > consequential fail ure of the tail) or the other way around. Hence we > are being required to cover both hypotheses by mods and checks front > and back.> > If it was ind eed the wing pin which failed first - very big "if" - > then the implicatio n is that the tail could/would have then failed > because it was subject to loads it had never been designed for > (perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because there was > anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential event, > not a causal one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had failed > then the aircraft may have been doomed whether o r not the tail broke > up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod > would have saved the day.> > A supporting thought to this hyp othesis is that the build quality > around the wing pin on the crash aircra ft is known to have been poor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been r eturning from a Permit > inspection when the wings would have been removed and replaced. > Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the already > compromised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > > > On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List mess age posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > > >> > Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I believe h is kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in 1995.> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > <nigel_graham@bt connect.com>> > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> >> >> connect.com>> >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, tot u dienst.> >>> >> What r eally saddens me is that I wrote to Europa Aviation in the > >> late '90s> >> highlighting the potential problem with the tailplane and > >> proposing that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as the standard build procedure. It would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no extra parts, just a change to build i nstructions the > >> manual.> >> In my mail to them, I even predicted a seq uence of events that > >> could lead to> >> a tailplane becoming detached a nd the resulting in-flight break-up > >> of the> >> aircraft.> >> No intere st was shown whatsoever and I never heard back from them.> >> When I learne d of the in-flight break-up of William's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeli ng that I knew what might have happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I was correct but the fact that the> >> authorit ies are looking closely at this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on> >> the money.> >>> >> m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message--- --> >> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> >> [mailto:owner-europ a-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >> Jong> >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46> >> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: an de Jong > >> > >>> >> I am glad to second that. T hank you very much indeed!> >> Regards,> >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wrote >>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom opportonity to be able to thank the right person > >>> for a great> >> idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't h ave to worry about > >> loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>> Regards,> >>>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Visit - www.EuropaOwn ers.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> =====> > > _________________________________________________________________ Missed the show?- Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. http://liveearth.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
> > > I wonder about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident >aircraft. If the >mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the slightest >disturbance in pitch >could cause the elevator to become uncontrollable. This would be >consistent with the report >of wild pitch excursions initially prior to the tail departing. I am not so sure about the above. A failing mass balance would have the same effect as pushing the stick forward. The pilot would instinctively pull back the stick and regain level flight. Maximum trim would then reduce that load a little, but there should be no real problem in maintaining ccordinated flight with the stick held back. Karl > > Glenn> From: >willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa >Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:01:35 +0100> To: >Harrison > > I have heard that there are >still doubts in the AAIB investigation > about whether the initial failure >was the wing pin (with > consequential failure of the tail) or the other >way around. Hence we > are being required to cover both hypotheses by mods >and checks front > and back.> > If it was indeed the wing pin which failed >first - very big "if" - > then the implication is that the tail could/would >have then failed > because it was subject to loads it had never been >designed for > (perhaps a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because >there was > anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential >event, > not a causal one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had >failed > then the aircraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail >broke > up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod > >would have saved the day.> > A supporting thought to this hypothesis is >that the build quality > around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known >to have been poor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning >from a Permit > inspection when the wings would have been removed and >replaced. > Perhaps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the >already > compromised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > > > > On 14 Jul 2007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List >message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > > >> > >Im not sure your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I >believe his kit would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in >1995.> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > >> > To: > > Sent: >Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa >Graham" > >> > >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, >tot u dienst.> >>> >> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa >Aviation in the > >> late '90s> >> highlighting the potential problem with >the tailplane and > >> proposing that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as >the standard build procedure. It would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no >extra parts, just a change to build instructions the > >> manual.> >> In my >mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that > >> could lead >to> >> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up > > >> of the> >> aircraft.> >> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never >heard back from them.> >> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of >William's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeling that I knew what might have >happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I >was correct but the fact that the> >> authorities are looking closely at >this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on> >> the money.> >>> >> >m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: >owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> >> >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >> >Jong> >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46> >> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> >> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> >>> >>> >> --> >Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong > >> > > >>> >> I am glad to second that. Thank you very much indeed!> >> Regards,> > >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wrote:> >>> --> Europa-List message posted >by: "josok" > >>>> >>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom >opportonity to be able to thank the right person > >>> for a great> >> >idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy that i don't have to worry about > >> >loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>> Regards,> >>>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>=====> > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Missed the show? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. >http://liveearth.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Tell MSN about your most memorable emails! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Can anyone explain to me how the tailplane can possibly move outward by even a millimeter when the pip pin head is resting firmly against a solid wall on the inboard side, whether this is epoxy, glass, wood or anything else ? Where are these huge forces that would pull this pin sideways through the surrounding foam body ? Is a loose TP6 really such a big problem, apart from making it difficult if not impossible to rig the tailplane ? Regards, Karl >From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no> >Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 >Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:54:16 +0200 > >14 Hantone HillWhile there may be doubt whether the shallow lip on the >inside of TP6 will be adequate as a tailplane retention, it is worth >reading EA2004's reasoning behind Mod 73 carefully: Retention of the >tailplane by TP6 (and the pip pin securing TP6 to the torque tube) AND a >secondary retention by the pip pin and its surrounding composite structure >alone, should the primary retention not hold. The mod is therefore as much >a strengthening of the structure around the pip pin and a proper transfer >of forces acting on the pip pin into the tailplane skin, as it is a mod for >better bonding of TP6 to the tailplane. > >This is the reason why the instructions make a point of not removing any >bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the event the pip pin ball >should not open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy a longer >pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would defeat that secondary retention >function of the mod. > >As I understand it, this view is also reflected in FSB-006 Issue 3 section >5: Mod 73 need to be done if the upper pip pin recess does not satisfy the >stated requirements. I think, however, that PFA ought to have required >ovalization of the torque tube holes even if Mod 73 may be omitted if the >requirements of Section 5 are complied with -ovalization should be done in >any event, I think. > >Regards, >Svein >LN-SKJ _________________________________________________________________ Tell Hotmail about an email that changed your life! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon(at)sent.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Nigel, Can you tell me where I can find details of mod 10672 as I can=92t locate it on the Europa Aircraft web site? Richard Iddon G-RIXS 13/07/2007 15:41 13/07/2007 15:41 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Started Mod 73
From: "Flying Farmer" <richard(at)scarrhillalpacas.co.uk>
Date: Jul 14, 2007
All Starting the mod 73, as my tail planes are still in the workshop and not filled or painted; In I went with the knife. I have found that the TP6 bush measures at 50mm from the face of the inboard side of the outboard rib. This puts it 10mm inboard more than the, instructions on the Mod 73 paper work, in turn will make the span wise diameter 60mm instead of the described 50mm. Before I continue, I ask is anyone finding the same measurements? I have checked the first instillation of the TP6 from the manual and I fine it is as it should be. Thank You Richard Wheelwright. Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Hi Richsrd, http://www.europaclub.org.uk/mods/improved_tp5_and_tp6_sleeve_retention.shtml Europa club pages, Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Price" <nicolaprice(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
14 Hantone HillIts on the Europa club website builders pages I think. Thanks for the what ' to look for' Nigel. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 6:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Nigel, Can you tell me where I can find details of mod 10672 as I can=92t locate it on the Europa Aircraft web site? Richard Iddon G-RIXS 13/07/2007 15:41 13/07/2007 15:41 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the elevator could tend to s lam up or down to the stops, possibly ripping the stick out of the pilots hands. One or t wo oscillations of this sort and the tail would come off for sure. Glenn> From: kheindl(at)msn.c om> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailpla ne - Mod 73> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:43:49 +0100> > --> Europa-List messa ge posted by: "Karl Heindl" > > > > > > > >> >> > I wonder about the integrity of the elevator mass balance in the accident > >aircra ft. If the> >mass balance had become disengaged for any reason, then the sl ightest > >disturbance in pitch> >could cause the elevator to become uncont rollable. This would be > >consistent with the report> >of wild pitch excur sions initially prior to the tail departing.> > > I am not so sure about th e above. A failing mass balance would have the same > effect as pushing the stick forward. The pilot would instinctively pull back > the stick and reg ain level flight. Maximum trim would then reduce that load > a little, but there should be no real problem in maintaining ccordinated > flight with th e stick held back.> > Karl> > > >> > Glenn> From: > >willie.harrison@tinyon line.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa > >Tailplane - Mod 73> Date: S opa-List message posted by: William > >Harrison <willie.harrison@tinyonline .co.uk>> > I have heard that there are > >still doubts in the AAIB investig ation > about whether the initial failure > >was the wing pin (with > conse quential failure of the tail) or the other > >way around. Hence we > are be ing required to cover both hypotheses by mods > >and checks front > and bac k.> > If it was indeed the wing pin which failed > >first - very big "if" - > then the implication is that the tail could/would > >have then failed > because it was subject to loads it had never been > >designed for > (perhap s a sudden pitch or roll or yaw?) , and not because > >there was > anything wrong with it - it would have been a consequential > >event, > not a causa l one. You might also feel that if the wing pin had > >failed > then the ai rcraft may have been doomed whether or not the tail > >broke > up. If this is true then perhaps neither mod 73 nor Nigel's mod > > >would have saved t he day.> > A supporting thought to this hypothesis is > >that the build qua lity > around the wing pin on the crash aircraft is known > >to have been p oor. > Also, the aircraft is known to have been returning > >from a Permit > inspection when the wings would have been removed and > >replaced. > Perh aps in refitting the wing, some damage was done to the > >already > comprom ised wing pin?> > Just a thought.> > Willie Harrison> > > > > > On 14 Jul 2 007, at 15:05, Carl Pattinson wrote:> > > --> Europa-List > >message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > > >> > > >Im not sur e your mod would have prevented Williams accident.> >> > I > >believe his k it would have been purchased in 1994 and was > > finished in > >1995.> >> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Graham" > > > ><nigel_graham@ btconnect.com>> > To: > > Sent: > >Saturday, Jul y 14, 2007 1:59 PM> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa > >Tailplane - Mod 7 l_graham(at)btconnect.com>> >>> >> Hartstikke bedankt heren, > >tot u dienst.> >>> >> What really saddens me is that I wrote to Europa > >Aviation in the > >> late '90s> >> highlighting the potential problem with > >the tailplan e and > >> proposing that the> >> tailplane mod be adopted as > >the standa rd build procedure. It would > >> have cost> >> nothing - no > >extra parts , just a change to build instructions the > >> manual.> >> In my > >mail to them, I even predicted a sequence of events that > >> could lead > >to> >> a tailplane becoming detached and the resulting in-flight break-up > > > > > of the> >> aircraft.> >> No interest was shown whatsoever and I never > > heard back from them.> >> When I learned of the in-flight break-up of > >Wi lliam's plane, I had a> >> sickening feeling that I knew what might have > >happened. The full > >> AAIB report> >> will confirm (or otherwise) if I > >was correct but the fact that the> >> authorities are looking closely at > >this component leads me to > >> believe I'm on> >> the money.> >>> >> > >m.v.g.> >>> >> Nigel> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: > >owner -europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> >> > >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@m atronics.com]On Behalf Of Jan de > >> > >Jong> >> Sent: 14 July 2007 12:46> >> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> >> > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa T ailplane - Mod 73> >>> >>> >> --> > >Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong > >> > > > >>> >> I am glad to second that. Tha nk you very much indeed!> >> Regards,> > > >> Jan de Jong> >>> >> josok wro te:> >>> --> Europa-List message posted > >by: "josok" > >>>> >>> Hi Nigel,> >>> It's a seldom > >opportonity to be able to thank th e right person > >>> for a great> >> > >idea! So: Thanks, ever so happy tha t i don't have to worry about > >> > >loose> >> bushes!> >>> :-)> >>>> >>> Regards,> >>>> >>> Jos Okhuijsen> >>>> > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Vis it - www.EuropaOwners.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>=====> > >> >______________________________ ___________________________________> >Missed the show? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.> >http://liveearth.msn.com> > _________________ ________________________________________________> Tell MSN about your most ====> > > _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one pla ce! Find it! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2007
From: Richard Holder <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin"
> This is the reason why the instructions make a point of > not removing any bid/epoxy around the hole on the > underside, in the event the pip pin ball should not > open on the underside of the new layup, but instead buy > a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would > defeat that secondary retention function of the mod. I am going to disagree with this. I think this requirement to "buy a bigger pip-pin" is unreasonable. Firstly, the amount of bid/resin required to be removed to get the pip pin to release its balls is tiny - see how big the balls are ! Maybe a ring of 25 thou of resin/bid would need to be removed. Secondly I understand that the pip pin BLS4R17N is somewhat out of fashion and that it and BLS4R07N (much shorter) are the only ones readily available. BLS4R17N is a 1 3/4 inch pip pin. There are 2 inch pip pins available in a different style but with much larger heads. The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is required (if they can find any). It may be that E(2004) can be persuaded to charge only cost price for the longer pip pins (around 20 - 25 maybe). This problem is after all a design problem. Hunkering down down to avoid all the flack that will probably come my way. Richard G-OWWW grounded now for 5 weeks :-( ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin"
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Or, for those of us that don't take off the tailplanes (except now every 10 hours) a bolt and a nut (or wing nut and securing ring)?! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:52 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin" > >> This is the reason why the instructions make a point of >> not removing any bid/epoxy around the hole on the underside, in the >> event the pip pin ball should not open on the underside of the new layup, >> but instead buy >> a longer pip pin. Removing bid/epoxy here would >> defeat that secondary retention function of the mod. > > I am going to disagree with this. I think this requirement > to "buy a bigger pip-pin" is unreasonable. > > Firstly, the amount of bid/resin required to be removed to > get the pip pin to release its balls is tiny - see how big > the balls are ! Maybe a ring of 25 thou of resin/bid would > need to be removed. > > Secondly I understand that the pip pin BLS4R17N is > somewhat out of fashion and that it and BLS4R07N (much > shorter) are the only ones readily available. > > BLS4R17N is a 1 3/4 inch pip pin. There are 2 inch pip > pins available in a different style but with much larger > heads. > > The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each > from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and > maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is > required (if they can find any). > > It may be that E(2004) can be persuaded to charge only > cost price for the longer pip pins (around 20 - 25 > maybe). This problem is after all a design problem. > > Hunkering down down to avoid all the flack that will > probably come my way. > > Richard > G-OWWW grounded now for 5 weeks :-( > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 14, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
What I still don't understand is that the wings came off and from the information to date there was not enough speed to pull the wings off. Incomplete information it would appear. Wings should not fail at any speed less than about 125 knots? That's what max rough air speed means. Graham glenn crowder wrote: > Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the elevator could tend > to slam up or down > to the stops, possibly ripping the stick out of the pilots hands. One > or two oscillations of > this sort and the tail would come off for sure. > > Glenn > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative pitchin g moment. Once the main wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would normally tend to pitch all the way under, which would certainly break the wing attachments. Glenn> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 onics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73> > --> Europ a-List message posted by: Graham Singleton > > What I still don't understand is that the wings came off and from the > information to date there was not enough speed to pull the wings off. > In complete information it would appear. Wings should not fail at any > speed less than about 125 knots? That's what max rough air speed means.> Graham> > glenn crowder wrote:> > Yeah, I got that but without mass balancing, the elevator could tend > > to slam up or down> > to the stops, possibly rippin g the stick out of the pilots hands. One > > or two oscillations of> > this ========================> _ =======> > > _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine=92s 2007 editors=92 choice for best web mail=97award-winning Wi ndows Live Hotmail. ration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Glenn, I am not so sure about that statement. As one accellerates, more nose down trim is required - standard in any aeroplane. That implies that if the tailplane was taken out of the equation, the aircraft would pitch up - not down. Aerodynamicists, am I missing something here?? regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 12:57 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative pitching moment. Once the main wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would normally tend to pitch all the way under, which would certainly break the wing attachments. Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 "new pip pin"
From: rlborger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Fellow Europaphiles, Richard Holder commented: "The other factor is that the BLS4R17N are about 50 each from E(2004), so the Mod 73 fix is a few quid in resin and maybe an extra 100 plus VAT if a bigger pip pin is required (if they can find any)." If there is an issue with the cost of replacement pip-pins perhaps I can help. McMaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com/ ) on this side of the pond has of ball lock pins in a wide variety of styles, materials, sizes, mechanisms, etc. It appears that there are a number of pins that would work and are at prices much less than the 50 UKP Go to the web site and search on "ball lock pins" and see what works for new pins. Then let me know how many and I'll see if I can work up a deal on pins at a much better price. Understand, I don't want to take business from E'04, I'd just like to do what I can to reduce the financial impact of these mandatory mods. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 14, 2007
Yes, but trimming nose down is done to lower the angle of attack of the w ing, and thus lower the induced drag, allowing a higher airspeed. It is still pushi ng down, just not as much as at lower speeds. All non symmetrical airfoils that do not have reflex in the trailing edge have a negative CM (pitching moment). This is why the tail is necessary i n the first place. The tailplane provides a downforce that balances the ne gative pitching moment of the wing. In a flying wing design, there is a ne cessity for more washout at the tips and/or reflex in the trailing edge of the wing to counteract the negative CM of the wing (effectively adding down force at the tail). Without the tail, the wing will rotate nose down and then tuck under. Glenn From: mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.comTo: europa-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 01:43:10 +0100 Glenn, I am not so sure about that statement. As one accellerates, more nose down trim is required - standard in any aeroplane. That implies that if the ta ilplane was taken out of the equation, the aircraft would pitch up - not do wn. Aerodynamicists, am I missing something here?? regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 12:57 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Once the tailplane(s) departed, the wing by itself has a negative pitchin g moment. Once themain wing heads down with nothing to stop it, would norm ally tend to pitch all the way under, which would certainly break the wing attachments. Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Missed the show?- Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. http://liveearth.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
To All, Was I imagining what I read about the accident? Wasn't flutter mentioned as part of the failure equation? If high frequency flutter occurred in flight, might that have caused, maybe, the debonding of the TP6 sleeve. Then the same high frequency flutter of the tailplane might have allowed the tailplane to "walk" on the torque tube. It could only go in one direction, outboard, and would not have to go very far before TP13 drive pins disengaged. Once disengaged, what would the tailplane behave like? Would the flutter drive the tailplane up and down so quickly without the mass balance weight as to cause the tailplane to fail? Or could the aerodynamics from the loose tailplane force the tail up, with the pilot countering this force with the other tailplane? Would it equalize to a controllable point while in flight? A question for the investigators, "Was the pip pin still in it's hole in the torque tube?" Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Started Mod 73
From: "Flying Farmer" <richard(at)scarrhillalpacas.co.uk>
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Duncan, Yes that had crossed my mind. But aren't the TP5 cut on an angle to match the inboard rib? Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org Attachments: http://www.europaowners.org//zfiles/dsc01238_147.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
I accept what you say about CM about the aerodynamic centre for an aerofoil. But are you saying that irrespective of the CofG of the aircraft, an aircraft will always pitch down. regards, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Price" <nicolaprice(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders
Date: Jul 15, 2007
14 Hantone HillHere's a teaser to get us away from the trauma of mod 73, Where's the best place to site the transponder antenna on a classic monowheel. Thanking you all, John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Price To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Tailplane Retention.
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Im not sure if we are thinking along the same lines - I mentioned this idea before but nobody picked up on it. A very simple solution would be to drop a long pin (9" long by about 1/4" DIA) through the top of the rib root closeout, behind the TP 12 drive plate and through the bottom closeout. This could be secured at the bottom with a sprung split pin and would prevent any outward movement of the tailplanes. The pin might need to be made of a hardened material rather than mild steel (to resist bending) - the TP12 drive plates would provide a degree of support. The pin would not need to pass through the TP4 torque tube itself but could be either forward or aft of it or both - 2 pins (IHMO excessive !!). Through the centre of the torque tube might be better but this could weaken the torque tube - Europa/ PFA would need to look into this. It would probably be necessary to drill holes through the TP4 flanges (which face inboard) but I cant see this weakening the drive plates to any significant degree. To ensure the pin didnt pull through the glass closeout, small plates could be bonded and riveted to the undersides of the tailplane closeouts where the pin passes through it. IHMO this would be a relatively cheap alternative and about as failsafe as one could wish for. Installation time less than one hour. Possibly a tad unsightly with the pin head protruding above the tailplane surface (this could be recessed) but 100% effective. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: R.C.Harrison To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:00 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention. Hi! Mike ...the threaded rod would need to "negotiate" past the central drive pins. What has happened to Stabilator retention mod. which I saw which has spring levers which drop behind the drive plates when rigging? Regards Bob Harrison. Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 13 July 2007 18:59 To: Europa-List(at)Matronics.Com Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Retention. Well it looks like this problem is not going to be over anytime soon. I'm domestically grounded, having been flooded out in the June rains - I suspect it will be 2008 before G-JULZ flies again. It seems to me that Mod 73 is a 'sticking plaster' solution while they find something better. For once I totally support the PFA while they try and make our aircraft a safer machine. Here is an idea that might be fairly easy to implement. How about threaded bar going right through the torque shaft. Some nicely glassed reinforced recesses in the tip of each tailplane, a couple of nuts and some neat covers to hide it all. Just thinking out of the box....... Anyone got any better ideas. regards, Mike - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Started Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Mine certainly arent (cut at an angle). Carl G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Flying Farmer" <richard(at)scarrhillalpacas.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 9:56 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Started Mod 73 > > > Duncan, > Yes that had crossed my mind. But aren't the TP5 cut on an angle to > match the inboard rib? > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > Attachments: > http://www.europaowners.org//zfiles/dsc01238_147.jpg > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham(at)btconnect.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Can anyone explain to me how the tailplane can possibly move outward by even a millimeter when the pip pin head is resting firmly against a solid wall on the inboard side..................................Snip Karl, I have attached below, an excerpt of a long mail I sent to the PFA that describes a sequence of events that could lead to the tailplain moving outboard. Out of interest, there is always a gap between the pip-pin and the face of the rib. This was sent before the current Mod 73 was issued, but you will see why the temporary remedial action has been to reinforce the pip-pin hole. Nigel ------------------------------- Excerpt ...... The only thing preventing each tailplane moving sideways is a single pip-pin that passes through the TP6 bush and into the TP4 torque tube. (See Fig.5 Chap 4) The design relies on a good bond to hold TP6 in place, however only the protruding outer 12mm (just 8mm on TP5) is required to bond to the tailplane rib that will subsequently be laid-up onto it. Epoxy adhesive does not bond well to stainless steel - so the potential for this bondline to fail is great. This tiny bondline is the only "design" load path to prevent the tailplane moving laterally. If the bond failed, the loose TP6 bush would tend to push its way inboard into the soft blue foam, allowing the tailplane to move outboard. The TP5 bush would offer no resistance since it would simply slide along the TP4 torque tube. In some early Europas, this TP6 bush has de-bonded and it is only the laminations into the "PipPin" access hole that prevent any lateral movement of the tail-plane. This lamination was never intended to be structural. If the aircraft is high-time and habitually operated off rough strips, it is logical to predict that the continual fretting would cause the glass around the pip-pin hole to chafe, opening up the hole to a point where the whole tailplane could slide far enough laterally to allow the tail-pane drive pins (TP12) to disengage from their drive bushes (TP13) - The tailplane would then oscillate violently with catastrophic results. Modification 10672) calls for both the Stainless TP5 and TP6 bushes to be laminated into an epoxy/Bi-Directional Glass tube before inserting this into the tailplane TP2 cores and laminating the ribs. This bonds both bushes over their entire surface area, significantly increasing the bond area and more importantly, physically tying TP5 with TP6 and both the inner and outer ribs together. With this structure, the entire bond surface area and both ribs would have to fail before the tailplane could move sideways. The loadpath is through the mod 10672 and not through the outer skin and pip-pin hole - a significantly better engineering solution. - ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders
Date: Jul 15, 2007
14 Hantone HillOurs is mounted on the underside of the fuselage about 12" forward of the tailspring attachment bolt. It is a small sharksfin design from Spruce and we stuck a circular groundplane (made from bacofoil) to the inside of the fuselage. The only downside is the length of the coax cable to the transonder unit itself. Anything over 6 feet requires a beefed up coax cable (cant remember the spec). If you buy it from specialist suppliers it is darned expensive (and about 10mm in diameter). I seem to recall we found something similar at much less cost from Tandy- bit it was 10 years ago. Alternatively save some money and shorten the distance to the aerial (ie: move it closer to the cockpit) - unless you are planning to have kids !!!!! Remember that unlike a comms radio a transponder transmits continuously so the exposure to radiation is greater. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: John Price To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders Here's a teaser to get us away from the trauma of mod 73, Where's the best place to site the transponder antenna on a classic monowheel. Thanking you all, John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Price To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List:Transponders
Date: Jul 15, 2007
I would suggest as low as possible in the rear fuselage but away from metal parts such as the flap crosstube. I have mine on a bracket on the join of the fuselage halves on the starboard side. In most cases it is OK but some ATC units have problems receiving a signal when I am flying towards them (particularly if they are in the 11 o'clock position) which infers screening from the engine. I intend moving it at the next opportunity. Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Price Sent: 15 July 2007 10:21 Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders Here's a teaser to get us away from the trauma of mod 73, Where's the best place to site the transponder antenna on a classic monowheel. Thanking you all, John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: John <mailto:nicolaprice(at)tiscali.co.uk> Price Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike <mailto:m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com> Gregory Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will _____ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders
Date: Jul 15, 2007
John, I couldn't say whether it's the best, but an easy, simple and effective place to mount it is at the bottom of the side of the plywood tower that encloses the tailplane mass balance. Mine is a Bob Archer SA-005 antenna and has worked without any apparent problem for 5 yrs. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Price" <nicolaprice(at)tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders 14 Hantone HillHere's a teaser to get us away from the trauma of mod 73, Where's the best place to site the transponder antenna on a classic monowheel. Thanking you all, John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Price To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Since I bought my Europa classic already flying can anyone advise if there is a quick way of finding out if Mod 10672 has been incorporated. This may save a lot of problems. John Price. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 3:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Pete/All I understand from Francis Donaldson that the incorporation of Mod 73 will not remove the requirement for the recurring inspection of the tail called for in Flight Safety Bulletin FSB-006. He has sent me a copy of issue 3; I have converted this to PDF format which has brought it down to 387 kB, which should come through as an attachment on the List. I apologise to those with dial-up, but I believe this is important because I also understand from Francis that FSB-006 Issue 3 will not now be posted on the PFA website until next week. I'm awaiting an amended copy of the covering letter sent out by the PFA, which I will also post on this List, which should make it clear that further inspection of the rear wing attachment is not required if it passed the criteria set out in FSB-007. This applies to classic Europas only, and Andy will be carrying out a trial modification to install a longer pin together with a washer and nut outboard of the root rib which will allow the aircraft that failed 007 to fly, and also improve the integrity of the attachment for all classic aircraft. The PFA anxious not to compromise the integrity of the root rib in this area, so a hole will have to be cut in the lower skin surface to incorporate this mod. Regards Mike will ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 13 July 2007 10:28 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike Do you know from the PFA if carrying out Mod 73 will remove the requirement for the recurring 10 hour inspection of the tail end? Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gregory Sent: 12 July 2007 19:01 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 To all Listers Francis Donaldson, Chief Engineer of the UK Popular Flying Association has asked me to give maximum publicity to the attached leaflet for Mod 73 covering tailplane retention. It will be available on the PFA website tomorrow, and copies have been put in the post today to all UK owners of flying aircraft, together with a covering letter and revised FSB 006 at issue 3. The good news is that compliance (for UK owners) is required within the next ten flying hours or before the next permit renewal, whichever is earlier, rather than "before next flight". There are three steps: 1. Elongation of the pip-pin holes in the torque tube. 2. Modification of the underside of the tailplane by constructing a reinforced pip-pin recess, except for tailplanes that are pre-moulded or fitted with Europa Club Standard Mod 10672. Note that 10672 is not capable of being retrofitted. 3. Placards on the top surface of each tailplane warning of the need to ensure correct engagement of both tab drive pin and pip pin before flight, and on the root rib of each tailplane to certify that Mod 73 has been complied with. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Europa Fault Reporting
Date: Jul 15, 2007
It is easy to point the finger of blame after the event and what I am about to say is not intended to blame anyone but rather offered as food for thought. It seems to me that there is a serious flaw in the regulatory system that has allowed this (and probably other) accidents to occurr. As far as I am aware there is no mandatory requirement to report to the authorities -( ie: the CAA, PFA and Europa), defects or faults that are discovered during the course of routine maintenance. It is necessary to enter details of maintenance work in the aircraft log but these are rarely examined until someone has had an accident. I am not sure if PFA inspectors are required to report back to the PFA on such issues. The issue of TP6 sleeves disbonding had been known about for many years but no one knows exactly how many tailplanes have been affected. A Europa owners mod was produced but this never became mandatory - in any event it could not be easily retrofitted to the many aircraft already built. We are only now addressing the problems that this particular design fault/ oversight has created. The point I am making is that without proper facts we are all working in the dark and it seems there is no formal mechanism for collating this data. A recent point in case was the implementation of FSB-006. We were asked to check for play in the tailplanes but there was no requirement to pass the data back to Europa or the PFA - nor was there a specific requirement to record the amount of play in the airframe logbook. Kitplanes can never be as rigorously tested or evaluated as commercial aircraft and even these reveal design flaws long after they have been deemed fit for service. Surely it is doubly important then that design and manufacturing defects are reported back to the manufacturer for them to evaluate and decide whether changes should be made. This is purely my view as a builder/ owner. Are there any PFA inspectors out there who could comment. Maybe there is a system and I have been unaware of it. Im donning my hard hat now. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: FW: Lydeway Fly-In 2007, Wiltshire, UK
Date: Jul 15, 2007
This is the final reminder of the Lydeway BBQ/Fly-In LYDEWAY BBQ/FLY-IN 2007 The Lydeway BBQ/Fly-In will be held on Saturday 21st July 2007 with Sunday 22nd July as a back-up day in case of bad weather. For those who haven't been to Lydeway before it is a 790m grass strip 11nm south of RAF Lyneham. A BBQ and drinks are provided for free in exchange for a couple of joyride flights for local residents. Due to the numbers of flight movements during the day I need to limit the event to 12-14 aircraft. With that in mind it is strictly PPR and I am now taking bookings. If you are only able to make one or other of the 2 days set aside for the event that is OK as I am taking bookings for both days independently. There will be a weather check at 2000hrs on Friday 20th July and immediately afterwards pilots will be notified by email as to which day the event will go ahead. Anyone interested in attending should contact me at nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk or by phone on 01380 860620. Nigel Charles. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Nigel, I understand all that and your mod should have been made standard a long time ago. But what about older Europas ? We hear reports about disbonded TP6s but we don't hear how they were repaired. I really would like to know. A suitable retrofit mod should also have been made available as soon as this problem was known. I still say that there is no way the tailplane can move if the pip pin head is firmly against solid material on the inboard side. You say there is always a gap, but that gap is filled with floxed epoxy, and the head is inside a close fitting plastic pipe in my case. I think another builder recently told us about a similar mod he made. The remaining space around the pipe is also filled with epoxy. Of course all these solutions are based on theory and only a lab test could verify the claims. When my TP5s disbonded from trailering I was kicking myself for not having installed a one-piece pipe, but in those early days I was very careful to follow the build instructions precisely. I stll think that a retrofit of a one-piece sleeve would be more than strong enough to prevent any future disbonding, and would be a relatively easy solution where the TP6s have already disbonded. As far as the accident goes, we still don't have any real conclusive evidence about the sequence of events. Only a number of theories. Only a wind tunnel test would verify the flutter theory, but who is going to pay for that ? Eyewitness reports can be very misleading. If the wing trailing edge pin came off first, is it possible that the pilot was getting set up for landing and deploying flaps and undercarriage ? I also like the other suggested solutions where a lock is put behind the TP12 Karl > > >Karl, > >I have attached below, an excerpt of a long mail I sent to the PFA that >describes a sequence of events that could lead to the tailplain moving >outboard. Out of interest, there is always a gap between the pip-pin and >the >face of the rib. > >This was sent before the current Mod 73 was issued, but you will see why >the >temporary remedial action has been to reinforce the pip-pin hole. > >Nigel > > >------------------------------- >Excerpt > >...... The only thing preventing each tailplane moving sideways is a single >pip-pin that passes through the TP6 bush and into the TP4 torque tube. (See >Fig.5 Chap 4) >The design relies on a good bond to hold TP6 in place, however only the >protruding outer 12mm (just 8mm on TP5) is required to bond to the >tailplane >rib that will subsequently be laid-up onto it. Epoxy adhesive does not bond >well to stainless steel - so the potential for this bondline to fail is >great. >This tiny bondline is the only "design" load path to prevent the tailplane >moving laterally. If the bond failed, the loose TP6 bush would tend to push >its way inboard into the soft blue foam, allowing the tailplane to move >outboard. The TP5 bush would offer no resistance since it would simply >slide >along the TP4 torque tube. > >In some early Europas, this TP6 bush has de-bonded and it is only the >laminations into the "PipPin" access hole that prevent any lateral movement >of the tail-plane. This lamination was never intended to be structural. If >the aircraft is high-time and habitually operated off rough strips, it is >logical to predict that the continual fretting would cause the glass around >the pip-pin hole to chafe, opening up the hole to a point where the whole >tailplane could slide far enough laterally to allow the tail-pane drive >pins >(TP12) to disengage from their drive bushes (TP13) - The tailplane would >then oscillate violently with catastrophic results. > >Modification 10672) calls for both the Stainless TP5 and TP6 bushes to be >laminated into an epoxy/Bi-Directional Glass tube before inserting this >into >the tailplane TP2 cores and laminating the ribs. This bonds both bushes >over >their entire surface area, significantly increasing the bond area and more >importantly, physically tying TP5 with TP6 and both the inner and outer >ribs >together. With this structure, the entire bond surface area and both ribs >would have to fail before the tailplane could move sideways. > >The loadpath is through the mod 10672 and not through the outer skin and >pip-pin hole - a significantly better engineering solution. > > >- > > _________________________________________________________________ Watch all 9 Live Earth concerts live on MSN. http://liveearth.uk.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders
From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)oh.rr.com>
Date: Jul 15, 2007
carl(at)flyers.freeserve. wrote: > ...(ie: move it closer to the cockpit) - unless you are planning to have kids !!!!! > > Remember that unlike a comms radio a transponder transmits continuously so the exposure to radiation is greater. No, it does not transmit continuously, but only bursts of a few milliseconds (at partial duty cycle) only when our reply lamp blinks in response to an ATC radar sweep. If we do the math on RF exposure, we absorb more RF energy from a cell phone than a transponder antenna a few feet away. Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123903#123903 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
The only "solid" material on the inboard side is 2 plies of bid comprising the pip pin recess (and a bit of foam!!!) . That is why the PFA have been so specific as to what is considered acceptable or not. The tailplane rib is on the outboard side of the pip pin recess and would provide no suport to a disbonded TP6. You say that the pip pin head is located against "solid material" but what is that solid material anchored to? If it isnt anchored to the tailplane surface or to the outboard tailplane rib then it isnt anchored to anything ! I suspect the current mod 73 will prove to be no more than a temporary solution and a more robust mod will follow in due course. There would seem to be several retrofit solutions to this problem and ultimately it is up to the PFA to decide which will be best in the long term. Whilst I agree this problem should have been addressed a long time ago, the fact is that many Europas have flown many hours without incident. This would suggest the problem is not as dire as we all think it is. I suspect that 99% of Europas are flying around with secure tailplanes but in the absence of definitive proof one has to assume the worst. We are also assuming that a disbonded TP5 contributed towards Williams accident. So far however there is no definitive evidence to support such an assumption (in the public domain at least). Carl (with a C !) G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:49 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 > > > Nigel, > > I understand all that and your mod should have been made standard a long > time ago. But what about older Europas ? We hear reports about disbonded > TP6s but we don't hear how they were repaired. I really would like to > know. A suitable retrofit mod should also have been made available as soon > as this problem was known. > I still say that there is no way the tailplane can move if the pip pin > head is firmly against solid material on the inboard side. You say there > is always a gap, but that gap is filled with floxed epoxy, and the head is > inside a close fitting plastic pipe in my case. I think another builder > recently told us about a similar mod he made. The remaining space around > the pipe is also filled with epoxy. Of course all these solutions are > based on theory and only a lab test could verify the claims. > When my TP5s disbonded from trailering I was kicking myself for not having > installed a one-piece pipe, but in those early days I was very careful to > follow the build instructions precisely. I stll think that a retrofit of a > one-piece sleeve would be more than strong enough to prevent any future > disbonding, and would be a relatively easy solution where the TP6s have > already disbonded. > > As far as the accident goes, we still don't have any real conclusive > evidence about the sequence of events. Only a number of theories. Only a > wind tunnel test would verify the flutter theory, but who is going to pay > for that ? Eyewitness reports can be very misleading. > If the wing trailing edge pin came off first, is it possible that the > pilot was getting set up for landing and deploying flaps and undercarriage > ? > > I also like the other suggested solutions where a lock is put behind the > TP12 > > > Karl > > >> >> >> >>Karl, >> >>I have attached below, an excerpt of a long mail I sent to the PFA that >>describes a sequence of events that could lead to the tailplain moving >>outboard. Out of interest, there is always a gap between the pip-pin and >>the >>face of the rib. >> >>This was sent before the current Mod 73 was issued, but you will see why >>the >>temporary remedial action has been to reinforce the pip-pin hole. >> >>Nigel >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------- >>Excerpt >> >>...... The only thing preventing each tailplane moving sideways is a >>single >>pip-pin that passes through the TP6 bush and into the TP4 torque tube. >>(See >>Fig.5 Chap 4) >>The design relies on a good bond to hold TP6 in place, however only the >>protruding outer 12mm (just 8mm on TP5) is required to bond to the >>tailplane >>rib that will subsequently be laid-up onto it. Epoxy adhesive does not >>bond >>well to stainless steel - so the potential for this bondline to fail is >>great. >>This tiny bondline is the only "design" load path to prevent the tailplane >>moving laterally. If the bond failed, the loose TP6 bush would tend to >>push >>its way inboard into the soft blue foam, allowing the tailplane to move >>outboard. The TP5 bush would offer no resistance since it would simply >>slide >>along the TP4 torque tube. >> >>In some early Europas, this TP6 bush has de-bonded and it is only the >>laminations into the "PipPin" access hole that prevent any lateral >>movement >>of the tail-plane. This lamination was never intended to be structural. If >>the aircraft is high-time and habitually operated off rough strips, it is >>logical to predict that the continual fretting would cause the glass >>around >>the pip-pin hole to chafe, opening up the hole to a point where the whole >>tailplane could slide far enough laterally to allow the tail-pane drive >>pins >>(TP12) to disengage from their drive bushes (TP13) - The tailplane would >>then oscillate violently with catastrophic results. >> >>Modification 10672) calls for both the Stainless TP5 and TP6 bushes to be >>laminated into an epoxy/Bi-Directional Glass tube before inserting this >>into >>the tailplane TP2 cores and laminating the ribs. This bonds both bushes >>over >>their entire surface area, significantly increasing the bond area and more >>importantly, physically tying TP5 with TP6 and both the inner and outer >>ribs >>together. With this structure, the entire bond surface area and both ribs >>would have to fail before the tailplane could move sideways. >> >>The loadpath is through the mod 10672 and not through the outer skin and >>pip-pin hole - a significantly better engineering solution. >> >> >>- >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Watch all 9 Live Earth concerts live on MSN. http://liveearth.uk.msn.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Hi Mike - yes the aircraft will always pitch down with a non symmetrical ai rfoil. This is why aerobatic aircraft are designed with symmetrical airfoils - zero pitching m oment. Aerobatic pilots don't like their aircraft pitching without their c ommand! Also, in the accident aircraft, losing the tailplane suddenly removed 20 lbs of weight off the tail, pitching the nose down further. If you've ever flown a C-172 while lowering the flaps you will probably r emember the pitch down. Actually, it balloons up first while speed is being lost, then pitches down. The wing is now very non-symmetrical, requiring up trim on the elevator t o balance the increased negative CM. The Europa does this too but not as not iceable, probably because of the powerful tail. Glenn From: mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.comTo: europa-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:01:17 +0100 I accept what you say about CM about the aerodynamic centre for an aerofoil . But are you saying that irrespective of the CofG of the aircraft, an air craft will always pitch down. regards, Mike _________________________________________________________________ See what you=92re getting into=85before you go there. http://newlivehotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 15, 2007
From: Rman <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
All, I've read, with great interest, all the suggestions and discussion. I'm no engineer, but I have a pretty good idea of what I would do, should I find any evidence of disbonding of the tailplane bushings. And, I believe it could be done with very little cosmetic damage to the tailplane. I like the solid tube idea and would build off of that. Basically, a tube, of the appropriate length, with two 1/4", round, metal rods welded fore and aft, on centerline. The rods wouldn't have to run the full length of the tube, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. The purpose of the rods would be to further stabilize the tube and prevent it from twisting. Should the original bushings become disbonded, it should be a fairly simple task to remove the old bushing (even if it required opening the wingtip), remove the inner bushing and modify the foam and ribs, to accomodate the new shape of the tube. Inserting the new tube would be as simple as applying a thin coat of Redux to the tube and inner walls of the foam, plugging the outboard end of the new tube and pushing the assembly in. The new tube would then be drilled to accept the standard pip pins. Adding covers to the pip pin access holes would further remove the possibility of a pin becoming dislodged. Seems to me that the new assembly would be extremely strong and should remove any further chance of the tailplanes pulling away from the drive pins. So, am I way off base, of does this idea hold water? Jeff - Baby Blue 300 hours and finishing up her 2nd annual... Karl Heindl wrote: > > > Nigel, > > I understand all that and your mod should have been made standard a > long time ago. But what about older Europas ? We hear reports about > disbonded TP6s but we don't hear how they were repaired. I really > would like to know. A suitable retrofit mod should also have been made > available as soon as this problem was known. > I still say that there is no way the tailplane can move if the pip pin > head is firmly against solid material on the inboard side. You say > there is always a gap, but that gap is filled with floxed epoxy, and > the head is inside a close fitting plastic pipe in my case. I think > another builder recently told us about a similar mod he made. The > remaining space around the pipe is also filled with epoxy. Of course > all these solutions are based on theory and only a lab test could > verify the claims. > When my TP5s disbonded from trailering I was kicking myself for not > having installed a one-piece pipe, but in those early days I was very > careful to follow the build instructions precisely. I stll think that > a retrofit of a one-piece sleeve would be more than strong enough to > prevent any future disbonding, and would be a relatively easy solution > where the TP6s have already disbonded. > > As far as the accident goes, we still don't have any real conclusive > evidence about the sequence of events. Only a number of theories. Only > a wind tunnel test would verify the flutter theory, but who is going > to pay for that ? Eyewitness reports can be very misleading. > If the wing trailing edge pin came off first, is it possible that the > pilot was getting set up for landing and deploying flaps and > undercarriage ? > > I also like the other suggested solutions where a lock is put behind > the TP12 > > > Karl > > >> >> >> >> Karl, >> >> I have attached below, an excerpt of a long mail I sent to the PFA that >> describes a sequence of events that could lead to the tailplain moving >> outboard. Out of interest, there is always a gap between the pip-pin >> and the >> face of the rib. >> >> This was sent before the current Mod 73 was issued, but you will see >> why the >> temporary remedial action has been to reinforce the pip-pin hole. >> >> Nigel >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> Excerpt >> >> ...... The only thing preventing each tailplane moving sideways is a >> single >> pip-pin that passes through the TP6 bush and into the TP4 torque >> tube. (See >> Fig.5 Chap 4) >> The design relies on a good bond to hold TP6 in place, however only the >> protruding outer 12mm (just 8mm on TP5) is required to bond to the >> tailplane >> rib that will subsequently be laid-up onto it. Epoxy adhesive does >> not bond >> well to stainless steel - so the potential for this bondline to fail is >> great. >> This tiny bondline is the only "design" load path to prevent the >> tailplane >> moving laterally. If the bond failed, the loose TP6 bush would tend >> to push >> its way inboard into the soft blue foam, allowing the tailplane to move >> outboard. The TP5 bush would offer no resistance since it would >> simply slide >> along the TP4 torque tube. >> >> In some early Europas, this TP6 bush has de-bonded and it is only the >> laminations into the "PipPin" access hole that prevent any lateral >> movement >> of the tail-plane. This lamination was never intended to be >> structural. If >> the aircraft is high-time and habitually operated off rough strips, >> it is >> logical to predict that the continual fretting would cause the glass >> around >> the pip-pin hole to chafe, opening up the hole to a point where the >> whole >> tailplane could slide far enough laterally to allow the tail-pane >> drive pins >> (TP12) to disengage from their drive bushes (TP13) - The tailplane would >> then oscillate violently with catastrophic results. >> >> Modification 10672) calls for both the Stainless TP5 and TP6 bushes >> to be >> laminated into an epoxy/Bi-Directional Glass tube before inserting >> this into >> the tailplane TP2 cores and laminating the ribs. This bonds both >> bushes over >> their entire surface area, significantly increasing the bond area and >> more >> importantly, physically tying TP5 with TP6 and both the inner and >> outer ribs >> together. With this structure, the entire bond surface area and both >> ribs >> would have to fail before the tailplane could move sideways. >> >> The loadpath is through the mod 10672 and not through the outer skin and >> pip-pin hole - a significantly better engineering solution. >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Watch all 9 Live Earth concerts live on MSN. http://liveearth.uk.msn.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Fault Reporting
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Carl, I must agree with your comments about collating information. I was very surprised and disappointed that when the recent FSBs were issued and I failed my own aircraft due to pip pin holes that despite advising my inspector and Francis Donaldson personally I am not aware that anyone was actually collating the number or type of issues that were being thrown up. As I do not come from an aeronautic background I did not know what the norm was, but, certainly in my world of finance, we would have noted problems to see if there was a common thread. I would not wish to cast an extra work on to any one body but I do wonder if there should be some form of database held (presumably by the PFA as the Licensing Authority) to be able to show that any FSB or similar issue had been resolved by any aircraft on the British Register. With 200 plus flying Europas surely it would not be that big a job for someone to manage. Flak jackets on!! Steve Pitt G-SMDH (Both pip pin holes cut out, top and bottom (see above) and ready to recast fibreglass - for those wondering about the exercise it took about 1/2 hour to do the cutting and shaping for each tailplane. The fibreglassing will probably take a little longer.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Europa Fault Reporting
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Hi! Carl Interesting questions the replies to which will be eagerly awaited by numerous people. I wish to make no comment however I recently asked the forum a question and got no reply ....it is relevant to keeping the tailplanes secured on the torque tube ...I repeat..... I recently saw a prospective mod. suggestion which I felt to be really good "out of the box" thinking ..... there was a spring lever through a slot in the forward upper surface of the tailplane closeout area which when opened by holding against the spring allowed the tail plane to push the lever behind the drive plates and then sprung into place behind the drive plates. Personally I would also have the same lever/spring arrangement also in an aft position making two pairs of levers all in addition to the existing pip pins. Anyone know the status of this mod ...has it been applied for ? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG 914 installed and ready for first "stoke up "...about to start works on "the moved goal posts" prior to flight test permit application. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: 15 July 2007 12:09 Subject: Europa-List: Europa Fault Reporting It is easy to point the finger of blame after the event and what I am about to say is not intended to blame anyone but rather offered as food for thought. It seems to me that there is a serious flaw in the regulatory system that has allowed this (and probably other) accidents to occurr. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David.Corbett" <david.corbett5(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Mod 73 - some practical experience
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Having received the Mod 73 instructions on Friday afternoon, I have spent the weekend working on 3 sets of tailplanes with the following results; Adrian Lloyd, my inspector, has been around all weekend, and has inspected at the relevant stages, and the owners have helped: 1 The aircraft are UK no's 10, 76, and 265; 76 and 265 are on the airfield here at Shobdon, the tailplanes for 10 came by car. 2 Opening up all 6, ready for lay-up, was completed in 3 hours. We were surprised by the differences inside - apparently early classic models had TP6 positioned with the centre of the tube on the centreline of the ply bulkhead, so the pip pin holes are not half way along TP6. 3 All 6 tailplanes had strong flox bonds attaching them to the ply bulkhead, and none showed any sign of dis-bonding. 4 After opening up in the workshop, we moved down to the airfield and positioned the tailpanes for 76 and 265 onto the TP4's of those aircraft as instructed. 5 I did not consider that grease alone would be sufficient release agent, and therefore on top of the grease I positioned a triangle of very thin polythene sheet - sheet that I had been using throughout my build to wet out lay-ups on, and then transfer the lay-up onto wherever it was required. In the context of Mod 73, this sheet is so thin that it does not increase the thickness of the grease - in fact, the opposite - and therefore the flox "lip" is not compromised. 6 Because of the shorter than expected length of TP4 showing through the dug-out hole on no's 10 and 76, because of the factor referred to in 2 above, there was quite a gap between the bottom of the foam and the TP4 itself; this needs either a very stiff flox mix, ("outside" the runny flox mix on the TP4 itself) or an added fillet of foam, or both, because of the fairly severe stippling required to get the BID layers into place without any creases or air bubbles. 7 I worked on all 4 tailplanes at the same time yesterday; in retrospect, I would do 2 at a time in future. 8 Around the dug-out hole, we have to stipple down the 2 BID layers onto the sanded off skin; it was very hard work getting a satisfactory lay-up, and I support the thoughts of those who have commented that a flox joint would be better. 9 Today we returned the tailplanes for 76 and 265 to the workshop for inspection and then (tomorrow?) covering. We then found that 10's tailplanes would not fit onto either 76 or 265's TP4. 10 I have a short length of plastic pipe - almost the correct size - around which I had previously wrapped masking tape to give a good fit into my TP5 and TP6. We therefore wrapped one layer of the very thin plastic sheet around what would be the TP6's band of masking tape and laid up one tailplane; this was successful, and after 4 hours I turned the plastic pipe, which immediately freed itself from the flox lay-up. I have now laid up the second tailplane for 10. 11 On all 6 tailplanes, the two layers of BID stippled down onto the sanded down 1" width of tailplane skin around the hole are already proud of the painted surface outside them; there are another two layers to be added when the holes are covered after final inspection, so there is going to be more sanding off of paint required (another 1" at least all round), and then lots of filler to blend the raised area into the existing tailplane surface. How lucky that this mod is on the under side! 12 So this is definitely not a "one day to cosmetic finish" job! Provided that I can get the last two tailplanes inspected tomorrow, I should get all 6 covered by the end of the day - some of the foam plugs are already prepared. Then the sanding and finishing has to be done. I am lucky, because I had the aircraft, the materials, the workshop, and my inspector all on site. We have discovered that the job can be done away from the aircraft, but it is essential to be sure that whatever "insert" you use is a good fit, and is properly fitted with a good release agent. I hope this helps, and does not frighten anyone off! David G-BZAM - UK 265 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders
Date: Jul 15, 2007
I was always given to believe that RF from transponders was fairly potent stuff but im no expert and I dont know how it compares to mobile phones or comms radios. I guess it depends on your definition of continuously but for my money a few milliseconds of transmission every 2 seconds adds up to a significant amount of RF energy. Its not continuous but must add up to quite a bit. Comms transmission on the other hand would amount to a couple of minutes per hour for most of us. But if you say transponder antennas are relatively safe then I guess you know what you are talking about. Fortunately no amount of RF is going to affect me in the parenting department - I had the snip 30 years ago ! - and the grand children are someone elses responsibility. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)oh.rr.com> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List:Transponders > > > > carl(at)flyers.freeserve. wrote: >> ...(ie: move it closer to the cockpit) - unless you are planning to have >> kids !!!!! >> >> Remember that unlike a comms radio a transponder transmits continuously >> so the exposure to radiation is greater. > > No, it does not transmit continuously, but only bursts of a few > milliseconds (at partial duty cycle) only when our reply lamp blinks in > response to an ATC radar sweep. If we do the math on RF exposure, we > absorb more RF energy from a cell phone than a transponder antenna a few > feet away. > > Fred F. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123903#123903 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info>
Subject: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
So how do you drill the new pip pin holes though the outside new tube to line up with the existing holes in TP4? -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rman Sent: 15 July 2007 19:25 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 All, I've read, with great interest, all the suggestions and discussion. I'm no engineer, but I have a pretty good idea of what I would do, should I find any evidence of disbonding of the tailplane bushings. And, I believe it could be done with very little cosmetic damage to the tailplane. I like the solid tube idea and would build off of that. Basically, a tube, of the appropriate length, with two 1/4", round, metal rods welded fore and aft, on centerline. The rods wouldn't have to run the full length of the tube, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. The purpose of the rods would be to further stabilize the tube and prevent it from twisting. Should the original bushings become disbonded, it should be a fairly simple task to remove the old bushing (even if it required opening the wingtip), remove the inner bushing and modify the foam and ribs, to accomodate the new shape of the tube. Inserting the new tube would be as simple as applying a thin coat of Redux to the tube and inner walls of the foam, plugging the outboard end of the new tube and pushing the assembly in. The new tube would then be drilled to accept the standard pip pins. Adding covers to the pip pin access holes would further remove the possibility of a pin becoming dislodged. Seems to me that the new assembly would be extremely strong and should remove any further chance of the tailplanes pulling away from the drive pins. So, am I way off base, of does this idea hold water? Jeff - Baby Blue 300 hours and finishing up her 2nd annual... Karl Heindl wrote: > > > Nigel, > > I understand all that and your mod should have been made standard a > long time ago. But what about older Europas ? We hear reports about > disbonded TP6s but we don't hear how they were repaired. I really > would like to know. A suitable retrofit mod should also have been made > available as soon as this problem was known. > I still say that there is no way the tailplane can move if the pip pin > head is firmly against solid material on the inboard side. You say > there is always a gap, but that gap is filled with floxed epoxy, and > the head is inside a close fitting plastic pipe in my case. I think > another builder recently told us about a similar mod he made. The > remaining space around the pipe is also filled with epoxy. Of course > all these solutions are based on theory and only a lab test could > verify the claims. > When my TP5s disbonded from trailering I was kicking myself for not > having installed a one-piece pipe, but in those early days I was very > careful to follow the build instructions precisely. I stll think that > a retrofit of a one-piece sleeve would be more than strong enough to > prevent any future disbonding, and would be a relatively easy solution > where the TP6s have already disbonded. > > As far as the accident goes, we still don't have any real conclusive > evidence about the sequence of events. Only a number of theories. Only > a wind tunnel test would verify the flutter theory, but who is going > to pay for that ? Eyewitness reports can be very misleading. > If the wing trailing edge pin came off first, is it possible that the > pilot was getting set up for landing and deploying flaps and > undercarriage ? > > I also like the other suggested solutions where a lock is put behind > the TP12 > > > Karl > > >> >> >> >> Karl, >> >> I have attached below, an excerpt of a long mail I sent to the PFA that >> describes a sequence of events that could lead to the tailplain moving >> outboard. Out of interest, there is always a gap between the pip-pin >> and the >> face of the rib. >> >> This was sent before the current Mod 73 was issued, but you will see >> why the >> temporary remedial action has been to reinforce the pip-pin hole. >> >> Nigel >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> Excerpt >> >> ...... The only thing preventing each tailplane moving sideways is a >> single >> pip-pin that passes through the TP6 bush and into the TP4 torque >> tube. (See >> Fig.5 Chap 4) >> The design relies on a good bond to hold TP6 in place, however only the >> protruding outer 12mm (just 8mm on TP5) is required to bond to the >> tailplane >> rib that will subsequently be laid-up onto it. Epoxy adhesive does >> not bond >> well to stainless steel - so the potential for this bondline to fail is >> great. >> This tiny bondline is the only "design" load path to prevent the >> tailplane >> moving laterally. If the bond failed, the loose TP6 bush would tend >> to push >> its way inboard into the soft blue foam, allowing the tailplane to move >> outboard. The TP5 bush would offer no resistance since it would >> simply slide >> along the TP4 torque tube. >> >> In some early Europas, this TP6 bush has de-bonded and it is only the >> laminations into the "PipPin" access hole that prevent any lateral >> movement >> of the tail-plane. This lamination was never intended to be >> structural. If >> the aircraft is high-time and habitually operated off rough strips, >> it is >> logical to predict that the continual fretting would cause the glass >> around >> the pip-pin hole to chafe, opening up the hole to a point where the >> whole >> tailplane could slide far enough laterally to allow the tail-pane >> drive pins >> (TP12) to disengage from their drive bushes (TP13) - The tailplane would >> then oscillate violently with catastrophic results. >> >> Modification 10672) calls for both the Stainless TP5 and TP6 bushes >> to be >> laminated into an epoxy/Bi-Directional Glass tube before inserting >> this into >> the tailplane TP2 cores and laminating the ribs. This bonds both >> bushes over >> their entire surface area, significantly increasing the bond area and >> more >> importantly, physically tying TP5 with TP6 and both the inner and >> outer ribs >> together. With this structure, the entire bond surface area and both >> ribs >> would have to fail before the tailplane could move sideways. >> >> The loadpath is through the mod 10672 and not through the outer skin and >> pip-pin hole - a significantly better engineering solution. >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Watch all 9 Live Earth concerts live on MSN. http://liveearth.uk.msn.com > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Subject: Re: Europa Fault Reporting
To All, Maybe it's just my way of thinking or the American way of thinking, but why get any authorities invloved. The only thing that they do is stop people from flying with any possible reason at all. (MHO) With the exception of accident causes and their corrections, why not simply use this forum, as we are presently doing, to keep a list of Mods that we determine as being of a matter pertaining to Europas. Police yourselves and avoid the official hassles. Hard hat on. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mod 73 - some practical experience
From: "Flying Farmer" <richard(at)scarrhillalpacas.co.uk>
Date: Jul 15, 2007
David, Did you find that the TP6 was loner in to the recess than others? below is a copy of my post from Saturday. This makes my recess finished at 60mm instead of 50mm. " Starting the mod 73, as my tail planes are still in the workshop and not filled or painted; In I went with the knife. I have found that the TP6 bush measures at 50mm from the face of the inboard side of the outboard rib. This puts it 10mm inboard more than the, instructions on the Mod 73 paper work, in turn will make the span wise diameter 60mm instead of the described 50mm. Before I continue, I ask is anyone finding the same measurements? I have checked the first instillation of the TP6 from the manual and I fine it is as it should be. " Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Glen and Ron P. I am a pilot and not an aerodynamicist. However, having just blown off the dust from my old aerodynamics textbook, what you are saying is not strictly correct. It may be that you are correct with relevance to the europa, but it really does depend on where the C of G is!! If one considers the main wing, if the Aerodynamic Centre (AC) is aft of the CofG the wing would be in a stable configuration. That is without any opposing forces the aircraft would pitch down. On the other hand, if the AC was forward of the CofG without any opposing forces the aircraft would pitch up. As the stabiliser is well aft of the aircraft CofG it is always stabilising. But it is possible to have a de-stabilising wing with a stabilising tailplane. Overall the aircraft would be stable as long as sum of wing and tailplane Cm/Cl curves have a negative slope. The point is that if the wing AC is forward of the CofG with no other forces affecting it the aircraft will pitch up, not down. Most aeroplanes I have flown 'balloon' on flap selection, particularly with the first notch of flap. However the nose down effect of selecting flap is caused by a rearward movement of the Centre of Pressure which creates an increased moment about the C of G which requires the adjustment of the tailplane trim - all be it with a slightly increased nose down attitude. Much the same I suppose as saying the pitch down is caused by an increase in negative Cm. Having said all that looking at the diagram in the aircraft handbook in the weight and balance chapter as a rough guestimate it would appear that the C of G of our europas (58-62.5in AOD) would always be forward of the Aerodynamic Centre which is approximately 25% chord in subsonic flow. regards, Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn crowder To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 4:32 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 Hi Mike - yes the aircraft will always pitch down with a non symmetrical airfoil. This is why aerobatic aircraft are designed with symmetrical airfoils - zero pitching moment. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73
Date: Jul 15, 2007
Jeff, I think that the TP5 and TP6 can be removed with heat without cutting any holes. Also, it would be easier to pre-drill the pip-pin holes, as you can then do a trial fit before bonding. To get the position exactly right I would attach a template (using double-sided tape) with a 1/4 inch hole over the top of the recess, first lining up all 3 holes with a 1/4 inch shaft or bolt, before removing the TP6. Just one of my crazy ideas. Karl >From: Rman <topglock(at)cox.net> >Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Tailplane - Mod 73 >Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:25:12 -0500 > > >All, > >I've read, with great interest, all the suggestions and discussion. I'm no >engineer, but I have a pretty good idea of what I would do, should I find >any evidence of disbonding of the tailplane bushings. And, I believe it >could be done with very little cosmetic damage to the tailplane. I like >the solid tube idea and would build off of that. Basically, a tube, of the >appropriate length, with two 1/4", round, metal rods welded fore and aft, >on centerline. The rods wouldn't have to run the full length of the tube, >but it certainly wouldn't hurt. The purpose of the rods would be to >further stabilize the tube and prevent it from twisting. > >Should the original bushings become disbonded, it should be a fairly simple >task to remove the old bushing (even if it required opening the wingtip), >remove the inner bushing and modify the foam and ribs, to accomodate the >new shape of the tube. Inserting the new tube would be as simple as >applying a thin coat of Redux to the tube and inner walls of the foam, >plugging the outboard end of the new tube and pushing the assembly in. The >new tube would then be drilled to accept the standard pip pins. Adding >covers to the pip pin access holes would further remove the possibility of >a pin becoming dislodged. > >Seems to me that the new assembly would be extremely strong and should >remove any further chance of the tailplanes pulling away from the drive >pins. > >So, am I way off base, of does this idea hold water? > >Jeff - Baby Blue >300 hours and finishing up her 2nd annual... > >Karl Heindl wrote: >> >> >> >> >>Nigel, >> >>I understand all that and your mod should have been made standard a long >>time ago. But what about older Europas ? We hear reports about disbonded >>TP6s but we don't hear how they were repaired. I really would like to >>know. A suitable retrofit mod should also have been made available as soon >>as this problem was known. >>I still say that there is no way the tailplane can move if the pip pin >>head is firmly against solid material on the inboard side. You say there >>is always a gap, but that gap is filled with floxed epoxy, and the head is >>inside a close fitting plastic pipe in my case. I think another builder >>recently told us about a similar mod he made. The remaining space around >>the pipe is also filled with epoxy. Of course all these solutions are >>based on theory and only a lab test could verify the claims. >>When my TP5s disbonded from trailering I was kicking myself for not having >>installed a one-piece pipe, but in those early days I was very careful to >>follow the build instructions precisely. I stll think that a retrofit of a >>one-piece sleeve would be more than strong enough to prevent any future >>disbonding, and would be a relatively easy solution where the TP6s have >>already disbonded. >> >>As far as the accident goes, we still don't have any real conclusive >>evidence about the sequence of events. Only a number of theories. Only a >>wind tunnel test would verify the flutter theory, but who is going to pay >>for that ? Eyewitness reports can be very misleading. >>If the wing trailing edge pin came off first, is it possible that the >>pilot was getting set up for landing and deploying flaps and undercarriage >>? >> >>I also like the other suggested solutions where a lock is put behind the >>TP12 >> >> >>Karl >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>Karl, >>> >>>I have attached below, an excerpt of a long mail I sent to the PFA that >>>describes a sequence of events that could lead to the tailplain moving >>>outboard. Out of interest, there is always a gap between the pip-pin and

July 01, 2007 - July 15, 2007

Europa-Archive.digest.vol-gh