Europa-Archive.digest.vol-gn
September 09, 2007 - September 25, 2007
River Fly-in. If anyone wants an unabridged disk of the pictures or a DVD
of the dodgy video I shot, email me at wingnut54(at)charter.net, and I'll send you
one of each or either. Include your mailing address of course. I haven't yet
tried to see if the short mpegs I uploaded will play or not. Hope they do for
you.
Kindest Regards,
Troy and Donna Maynor
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=albums.php&set_albumListPage=1
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | augustene brown <augie2538(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rough River Fly-In |
Troy,
Nice pictures. Jim and I are jealous - maybe next year.
Augustene
N398JB
europaman wrote:
Hey Europa Friends,
Wonder on over to the Europa Owners Forum Gallery to view a slide show of the Rough
River Fly-in. If anyone wants an unabridged disk of the pictures or a DVD
of the dodgy video I shot, email me at wingnut54(at)charter.net, and I'll send you
one of each or either. Include your mailing address of course. I haven't yet
tried to see if the short mpegs I uploaded will play or not. Hope they do for
you.
Kindest Regards,
Troy and Donna Maynor
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=albums.php&set_albumListPage=1
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Kingsley
Not sure if my tank was the older type, I suspect it wasn=92t. But the
support
straps were firmly bonded to the tank.
Hope that helps
Cheers
Alan
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley
Hurst
Sent: 10 September 2007 00:26
Subject: Europa-List: Tank leaks
All,
With respect to the fuel tanks cracking/splitting . . . .
1 Have cracks in the fuel tanks been confined only to the original
(pre
'fluoride-treated') tanks, the (post 'fluoride-treated') tanks or both ?
2 Has everyone who has had cracks in a tank found that the support
straps were firmly stuck to the tank ?
Regards
Kingsley in Oz
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/
Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
09/09/2007
10:17
09/09/2007
10:17
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Tail wheel bearings |
Hi Paul,
I replaced mine from day one because they were such poor quality but I cant
remember the number. Aircraft Spruce sell a replacement bearing part number
06-00060 for about $10. which looks like it is the right one. It is in the
Homebuilders Special Tailwheels section.
Brian Davies
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
Sent: 10 September 2007 00:09
Subject: Europa-List: Tail wheel bearings
-->
Hi all,
Well after 3.5 / 680 hours my tail wheel bearings finally decided to part
company from the bearing race.
I can't see any identifying numbers on the side of the bearing and I was
wondering if anyone has replaced a set, and if so could give me a part
number.
Thanks - Paul
13:24
13:24
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no> |
| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Reference the last few days' thread on the subject of using Loctite to
prevent play in the tailplane drive.
I called Roger at EA04 today, referring to the message he posted on this
forum on July 30th regrading EA04's test of securing the parts with
Loctite, and asked: "Can I just go ahead and use Loctite?".
Roger's reply was (as a summary, not an exact quote):
Hold on - don't do it just yet. There is a Service Bulletin coming out
shortly, describing how to do it. Some people have tried doing it
during assembly of the torque tube, but the problem is that the Loctite
sits so quickly. Before they had the pieces into their final position,
the Locktite stuck. The SB will describe how to do it by applying
capillary action, without disassembling the parts. Probably a degreaser
is to be used for cleaning, still without disassembling. The 603 will
be used - it is quite thin and of penetrating type.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
Hi! Kingsley
Your use of the words support "straps" concerns me... IMHO the tanks
were to be allowed to be unbonded and just have supports which were
allowed to cure underneath to the shape of the tank plus a ledge across
the fuselage that the forward projection would sit on together with the
bracket stops to the seat back bulkhead. Vertical positioning was an
important issue to enable the wing spars to be engaged otherwise the
tank was free to expand and contract.
I'm pretty sure my tank was the early type and was purchased in 1997.(no
leaks ..YET!)
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley
Hurst
Sent: 10 September 2007 00:26
Subject: Europa-List: Tank leaks
All,
With respect to the fuel tanks cracking/splitting . . . .
1 Have cracks in the fuel tanks been confined only to the original
(pre 'fluoride-treated') tanks, the (post 'fluoride-treated') tanks or
both ?
2 Has everyone who has had cracks in a tank found that the support
straps were firmly stuck to the tank ?
Regards
Kingsley in Oz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail plane torque tube installation |
Fred.
If you're having a problem finding 603, go to Auto Zone a buy the
Permatex version (green). After checking the spec sheets on both, I
found that they are almost identical. I have 26 hours on my "fix" with
no movement at all...
Jeff - Baby Blue
326 hours
Fred Klein wrote:
>
> Paul McAllister mentions Loctite 603...I have only Loctite 243 and
> 271...both are red; #271 is labeled "high strength" and "strengthens
> slip and light press fits".
>
> Does anyone know the significance of the various numbers and whether
> or not #603 has special attributes which would enhance its
> effectiveness over the others?
>
> Fred
> A194
>
> On Friday, September 7, 2007, at 03:56 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:
>
>> I have just applied Loctite 603 to my TP12's and TP9 (assembled, in
>> position) by forcing it in via a very short bristled artists bush.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tail plane torque tube installation |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
Thanks Jeff...can't have to much information; I did find and order both
603 and 638 from Amazon who source it from some outfit...R. Hughes Co.
as I (partially) recall. Note Roger Bull's post of this morning...just
in case!
Fred
>
> Fred.
>
> If you're having a problem finding 603, go to Auto Zone a buy the
> Permatex version (green). After checking the spec sheets on both, I
> found that they are almost identical.
> Jeff - Baby Blue
> 326 hours
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tail wheel bearings |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
Paul,
Tom Friedland sent me the following a couple months ago:
> My tailwheel invoice says it is #6.00006.565 as ordered from
> linco-inc.com.-
Good luck,
Fred
>
>
> Thanks to all who posted the wheel bearing information. - Paul
>
--
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
| From: | "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net> |
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use Bobs clamps
as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rough River Flyin |
| From: | "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net> |
I have just enjoyed looking at the pictures in the
gallery and decided that we will either have to oranise a
UK national Europa Flyin or i will have to fit long range tanks!!!
By the way, was the sky really that blue every day or has someone been
busy with photoshop?
Steve vestuti G-CEBV #573 in S.Wales.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Play in tailplane drive Slop - Clamp Question Vs Loctitie |
I have been following this thread with great interest. While I am lucky
enough to NOT have installed the top I thought that there may be a more permanent
fix for the tail plane slop issue.
Did I understand from one writer that E04 endorsed the "clamp"" modification
to solve this problem? Or have I completely misunderstood the issue / fix
here?
Please be kind as I may be suffering brain damage undoubtedly caused from
inhaling the blue dust being generated from continuous composite filling and
sanding which is now going on 3 months.....
If the clamps are the fix. Where does a dusty Texan purchased these miracle
devises? I have seen photos on the web someplace. But it was long ago...
I have been in the Automotive parts business for many many years now. Don't
get me wrong fellas. Loctite makes fabulous products. But I have always been a
fan of bolts and nuts (if they can be used) for maximum adhesion.
Thanks so much boys.
Brian Skelly
Europa XS TriGear #A276
North Texas USA
You can see my build photos at:
http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill and Sue <bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Bob,
The whole aeroplane is glued together! That seems to work pretty well.
How are you getting on with your 914?
Rgds
Sue & Bill
R.C.Harrison wrote:
>
> Steve,
> IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
> mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
> blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
> performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
> is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
> that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison.
> PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
> Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
>
>
> Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
>
> I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
> Bobs clamps as
> removal would be far easier.
>
> steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2519 (20070910) Information __________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tailplane torque tube installation |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
This just in from E04 on subject topic.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Roger Bull" <roger@europa-aircraft.com>
> Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:29:24 AM US/Pacific
> To: "Fred Klein"
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
>
> Fred,
>
> We shall probably soon be issuing a Service Bulletin which will
> probably
> require the TP9 and the two TP12's to be Loctited - however this is
> still not finalised with the PFA.
>
> If it goes ahead the preferred Loctite will be 603, which is strong and
> which is reasonably oil tolerant. However it goes off very quickly,
> and
> you wouldn't have time to do it as you suggest below. We have carried
> out tests, and the bond is strong enough if the Loctite is introduced
> by
> capillary action to the components when they are in position.
>
> I suggest you wait until the Bulletin is finalised and published - it
> will give enough detail for the method.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Klein [mailto:fklein(at)orcasonline.com]
> Sent: 07 September 2007 22:30
> To: Roger Bull
> Subject: Fwd: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
>
> What do you think Roger?
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
>> Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 12:13:56 PM US/Pacific
>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
>> Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>>
>>
>> I am at the happy stage of preparing to tap home the four drive pins,
>> attach the washers and cotter pins, and call it good; my goal is to
>> ensure (or raise the level of probability) that no slop EVER develops
>> between TP9, the two TP12's, and TP4. The question facing me is
>> whether or not I should loctite these components together.
>>
>> I've read the posts of those who have ventured into the tailcone to
>> deal w/ such slop (or "play") with profound admiration; if I'm ever in
>
>> the company of a Europaphile who's done this successfully, everyone
>> present will enjoy a round of drinks on me.
>>
>> Since I am installing the 3/8" pins, my sense is that preventing wear
>> from occurring is the key...hence the notion that loctiting now is
>> better (and easier) than doing so later. My sense also is that if for
>> some reason in the future I find the need to remove the torque tube,
>> warming up the loctite so it will release will be the least of my
>> problems. Having taken the torque tube to a machine shop to have the
>> 1/4" holes enlarged for the 3/8" pins, I now have a good interference
>> fit with no play whatsoever.
>>
>> It appears to me that the best way to apply loctite in this situation
>> would be to rotate TP9 & TP12 on TP4 away from the holes, dispense the
>
>> loctite in the holes of TP9 & TP12 onto the surface of TP4, and then
>> realign the holes, drive the pins, and "Bob's your uncle".
>>
>> Mentally, I've run this thru my "min/max regret analysis" and
>> concluded that this is the thing to do. If anyone thinks this is
>> unwise, please let me know before I do something stupid! And, if
>> you'd known about the wear issues of these components when you were at
>
>> this stage, would you have used loctite?
>>
>> Thanks for all responses,
>>
>> Fred
>> A194
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
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>> believed to be clean.
>>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
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> --
>
>
> --
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Rough River Flyin |
The sky was indeed that blue. Out west this is an every day occurence,
but here it was just pure luck.
--- steve v wrote:
>
> I have just enjoyed looking at the pictures in the
> gallery and decided that we will either have to oranise a
> UK national Europa Flyin or i will have to fit long range tanks!!!
> By the way, was the sky really that blue every day or has someone
> been
> busy with photoshop?
>
> Steve vestuti G-CEBV #573 in S.Wales.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Tail plane torque tube installation |
Hi all,
For what its worth I believe that Loctite do sell a retarding agent to delay
the curing process if you wanted to assemble as Fred has described.
Paul
> From: "Roger Bull" <roger@europa-aircraft.com>
> Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:29:24 AM US/Pacific
> To: "Fred Klein"
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
>
> Fred,
>
> However it goes off very quickly, and you wouldn't have time to do it
> as you suggest below.
> Best regards,
>
> Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Klein [mailto:fklein(at)orcasonline.com]
> Sent: 07 September 2007 22:30
> To: Roger Bull
> Subject: Fwd: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
>
> What do you think Roger?
>
>> It appears to me that the best way to apply loctite in this situation
>> would be to rotate TP9 & TP12 on TP4 away from the holes, dispense the
>
>> loctite in the holes of TP9 & TP12 onto the surface of TP4, and then
>> realign the holes, drive the pins, and "Bob's your uncle".
>>
>>
>> Thanks for all responses,
>>
>> Fred
>> A194
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tail plane torque tube installation |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
While not wanting to beat a dead horse, being quite willing to await
E04's new service bulletin, and lacking direct personal experience w/
Loctite 603, I note the following from a Loctite seller:
> Product Description
> High strength retainer for "as received" parts. Tolerant of oil and
> other contamination. Seals and secures cylindrical assemblies up to
> 0.004" (0.1 mm) radial clearance. Fixtures in 10 minutes. Prevents
> fretting and corrosion of metal assemblies. Available Worldwide
Though I've never encountered the usage of the word "Fixtures" in this
sense, I would interpret it to mean that 10 minutes is the working life
of the product which seems like ample time to coat the surfaces, spin
the fitting, insert and drive home the pin....one fitting at a time of
course.
Fred
>
>
> For what its worth I believe that Loctite do sell a retarding agent to
> delay
> the curing process if you wanted to assemble as Fred has described.
>
> Paul
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hagar" <hagargs(at)earthlink.net> |
My crack was right along one of the support straps.
kit purchased in 1999
steve Hagar
A143
Mesa, AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: Kingsley Hurst
Sent: 9/9/2007 4:30:43 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Tank leaks
All,
With respect to the fuel tanks cracking/splitting . . . .
1 Have cracks in the fuel tanks been confined only to the original (pre 'fluoride-treated')
tanks, the (post 'fluoride-treated') tanks or both ?
2 Has everyone who has had cracks in a tank found that the support straps were
firmly stuck to the tank ?
Regards
Kingsley in Oz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Hi! Bill .
Glue and plastic is acceptable IMHO metal needs welding or adequate
bolts/pins.
914 6n hours done.Quite good but a completely different animal to the
Jab.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and
Sue
Sent: 10 September 2007 23:54
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Bob,
The whole aeroplane is glued together! That seems to work pretty well.
How are you getting on with your 914?
Rgds
Sue & Bill
R.C.Harrison wrote:
>
> Steve,
> IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
> mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving
its
> blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
> performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
> is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
> that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison.
> PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
> Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
>
>
> Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube
together?
>
> I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
> Bobs clamps as
> removal would be far easier.
>
> steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2519 (20070910) Information __________
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Tailplane torque tube installation |
Hi! Fred
Sorry but I'm not "your uncle" but I do have a perfect removable fix to
all the problems which doesn't have any doubts about the mixing of glue
and metal components. I have already suffered it the hands of Loctite on
the nose wheel yoke spindle if you remember? It cost me 18 months
flying, thanks but no thanks.
Regards
BOB Harrison.
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 11 September 2007 00:21
Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
This just in from E04 on subject topic.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Roger Bull" <roger@europa-aircraft.com>
> Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:29:24 AM US/Pacific
> To: "Fred Klein"
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
>
> Fred,
>
> We shall probably soon be issuing a Service Bulletin which will
> probably
> require the TP9 and the two TP12's to be Loctited - however this is
> still not finalised with the PFA.
>
> If it goes ahead the preferred Loctite will be 603, which is strong
and
> which is reasonably oil tolerant. However it goes off very quickly,
> and
> you wouldn't have time to do it as you suggest below. We have carried
> out tests, and the bond is strong enough if the Loctite is introduced
> by
> capillary action to the components when they are in position.
>
> I suggest you wait until the Bulletin is finalised and published - it
> will give enough detail for the method.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Klein [mailto:fklein(at)orcasonline.com]
> Sent: 07 September 2007 22:30
> To: Roger Bull
> Subject: Fwd: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
>
> What do you think Roger?
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
>> Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 12:13:56 PM US/Pacific
>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube installation
>> Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>>
>>
>> I am at the happy stage of preparing to tap home the four drive pins,
>> attach the washers and cotter pins, and call it good; my goal is to
>> ensure (or raise the level of probability) that no slop EVER develops
>> between TP9, the two TP12's, and TP4. The question facing me is
>> whether or not I should loctite these components together.
>>
>> I've read the posts of those who have ventured into the tailcone to
>> deal w/ such slop (or "play") with profound admiration; if I'm ever
in
>
>> the company of a Europaphile who's done this successfully, everyone
>> present will enjoy a round of drinks on me.
>>
>> Since I am installing the 3/8" pins, my sense is that preventing wear
>> from occurring is the key...hence the notion that loctiting now is
>> better (and easier) than doing so later. My sense also is that if for
>> some reason in the future I find the need to remove the torque tube,
>> warming up the loctite so it will release will be the least of my
>> problems. Having taken the torque tube to a machine shop to have the
>> 1/4" holes enlarged for the 3/8" pins, I now have a good interference
>> fit with no play whatsoever.
>>
>> It appears to me that the best way to apply loctite in this situation
>> would be to rotate TP9 & TP12 on TP4 away from the holes, dispense
the
>
>> loctite in the holes of TP9 & TP12 onto the surface of TP4, and then
>> realign the holes, drive the pins, and "Bob's your uncle".
>>
>> Mentally, I've run this thru my "min/max regret analysis" and
>> concluded that this is the thing to do. If anyone thinks this is
>> unwise, please let me know before I do something stupid! And, if
>> you'd known about the wear issues of these components when you were
at
>
>> this stage, would you have used loctite?
>>
>> Thanks for all responses,
>>
>> Fred
>> A194
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "G-IANI" <g-iani(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Old Sarum Fly in |
Old Sarum Europa Fly In
Saturday September 15, 2007
Free Landing for Europas, Fuel available
Come and meet the three resident Europas
see Mod 64B (High Top with lowered cowl and bigger screen)
Non Flying builders and potential owners Welcome
You might even get a ride
If you plan (weather permitting) to attend please contact
Ian Rickard on 01483 714096 or e-mail (g-iani
(at)ntlworld.com)
By letting me know we can organise reserved Tables for Lunch (or
Barbeque depending on numbers)
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Bob, The plane relies on an awful lot of 'glue' to stick the bits of glass
together!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
>
> Steve,
> IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
> mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
> blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
> performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
> is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
> that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison.
> PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
> Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
>
>
> Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
>
> I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
> Bobs clamps as
> removal would be far easier.
>
> steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham(at)btclick.com> |
| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Bob,
If I may make the case for the defence .........
Once upon a time in a life far, far away ......I worked for a company
developing and manufacturing anaerobic adhesives. (No ...it wasn't Loctite)
Part of my job entailed setting up an running the lab tests to quantify the
shear and peel strengths of the various formulations under differing
assembly (best case, worst case and typical) cleanliness conditions.
Even though I knew how the adhesive worked, it never ceased to amaze me how
strong this stuff was.
Some test pieces (typically a "ring and pin" for shear testing) would fail
before the adhesive.
One can use many adjectives to describe these adhesives, but "Mickey Mouse"
would be THE most inappropriate.
I CAN imagine the PFA sanctioning their use. Anaerobic adhesives (Loctite is
just one) are a near-perfect engineering solution to our very real
engineering problem.
They tick all the boxes.
They are low cost, simple to administer, lightweight, strong, chemically
resistant and (with the use of suitably masked heat) easy to dis-assemble.
Most importantly for us, there is no requirement for the entire surface area
of the two mating components be completely covered or even completely
de-greased. The surface area of the TP4 is so great, that an anaerobic will
work even if the adhesive does not wick over the entire surface.
Remember that this is being used in addition to (not in place of) the
standard drive pins. The adhesive's only function is to prevent relative
movement - the pins still take the load.
Regards
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 10 September 2007 22:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Jeffers" <pjeffers(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Nigel,
Many thanks you for your breath of fresh air on this subject. I have used
loctite in these areas for some time and it is now nice to hear of its
efficacy from someone who actually knows what he is talking about.
Pete Jeffers
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Graham
Sent: 11 September 2007 10:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Bob,
If I may make the case for the defence .........
Once upon a time in a life far, far away ......I worked for a company
developing and manufacturing anaerobic adhesives. (No ...it wasn't Loctite)
Part of my job entailed setting up an running the lab tests to quantify the
shear and peel strengths of the various formulations under differing
assembly (best case, worst case and typical) cleanliness conditions.
Even though I knew how the adhesive worked, it never ceased to amaze me how
strong this stuff was.
Some test pieces (typically a "ring and pin" for shear testing) would fail
before the adhesive.
One can use many adjectives to describe these adhesives, but "Mickey Mouse"
would be THE most inappropriate.
I CAN imagine the PFA sanctioning their use. Anaerobic adhesives (Loctite is
just one) are a near-perfect engineering solution to our very real
engineering problem.
They tick all the boxes.
They are low cost, simple to administer, lightweight, strong, chemically
resistant and (with the use of suitably masked heat) easy to dis-assemble.
Most importantly for us, there is no requirement for the entire surface area
of the two mating components be completely covered or even completely
de-greased. The surface area of the TP4 is so great, that an anaerobic will
work even if the adhesive does not wick over the entire surface.
Remember that this is being used in addition to (not in place of) the
standard drive pins. The adhesive's only function is to prevent relative
movement - the pins still take the load.
Regards
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 10 September 2007 22:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
17:43
17:43
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au> |
MessageGidday Bob,
You said :-
> Your use of the words support "straps" concerns me...
Please don't be concerned mate, mine are done as per the manual and
without checking the manual, I guess they are more correctly called
brackets. It's that English language you blokes introduced to this
country that is the problem ! ! !
I'm interested to know if those that have cracked or leaked are also
bonded firmly to the . . . . . . (brackets !!) ???
Cheers
Kingsley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Nigel,
Thanks for the sharing your real world experience on this topic. I have
used the Lotite 6xx series over a number of years and I never cease to be
amazed what this product can do.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> |
As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same results?
Will
17:43
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Daniel,
No, it is not the blue foam, it's the epoxy that needs post curing. So also cure
the wings, fuse ect. For the second part of the question, not entirely sure,
please correct me if i am wrong, but if you cure at say 40 degrees, and the plane
ever gets warmer, it will continue to cure with bad results for your beautiful
finish...
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi All,
As far as i know there is still no conclusion from the AAIB about the cause of
this one and only structural failure. It keeps buzzing in my mind. It is a fact
that there should be no slop in tail planes, that the bushes should be secure,
and that wing pins should be properly attached. Period.
But was it the cause off the accident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal movements, then
suddenly very steep up and down movements, paper flying from the cabin. All
according the AAIB report.
I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been communicated before:
The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one of the anti-trim tab
drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything would look pretty much OK,
feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass the T-rod, on which the anti tab
would become a pro-tab. This would cause a violent movement, on which the pilots
correction would cause another and so on, until destruction. It would explain
the described up and down movements eh? Start shooting please!
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | StructuraL failure or? |
Also I've noticed that the T rod can be unthreaded by turning it over and
over enough
times to completely separate it from the drive mechanism if the nut is not
tight. What if this happened slowly over a period of years and finally cam
e loose on that particular flight?
The trim position would be affected, but over time it might not be notice
d.
Glenn > Subject: Europa-Li
st: StructuraL failure or?> From: josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007
sted by: "josok" > > Hi All,> As far as i know there is s
till no conclusion from the AAIB about the cause of this one and only struc
tural failure. It keeps buzzing in my mind. It is a fact that there should
be no slop in tail planes, that the bushes should be secure, and that wing
pins should be properly attached. Period.> But was it the cause off the acc
ident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal movements, then suddenly very steep up a
nd down movements, paper flying from the cabin. All according the AAIB repo
rt. > I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been commu
nicated before: The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one of the a
nti-trim tab drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything would look
pretty much OK, feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass the T-rod, on
which the anti tab would become a pro-tab. This would cause a violent move
ment, on which the pilots correction would cause another and so on, until d
estruction. It would explain the described up and down movements eh? Start
shooting please!> > Regards,> > Jos Okhuijsen> > > > > > > Visit - www.Euro
====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Capture your memories in an online journal!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
________________________________________________________________________________
Short answer: NO.
I have no specific information about the Aeropoxy material (there is nothing
about this on the Aeropoxy web site) but in general for epoxies (and other
thermosetting polymers)the cure temperature affects the glass transition
temperature, T sub g. While the polymerization reaction generally behaves
in the expected fashion, i. e., longer soak at lower temperature being
somewhat equivalent to a shorter soak at a higher temperature, the critical
factor here is to have the cure temperature high enough to cure the epoxy to
a high T sub g.
The glass transition temperature is actually not a specific temperature (the
melting point of ice for example) but rather a range of temperature through
which the material transitions from being hard and glassy to being soft and
rubbery. The higher the cure temperature the higher the glass transition
temperature, and that translates directly to a stronger airframe when
ambient temperature is high.
Jos Okhuijsen is correct on both points - cure all parts with builder
applied epoxy and cure at a temperature higher than you expect to encounter.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS Tri-Gear
S/N A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:25 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Post cure
As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same results?
Will
17:43
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Glenn
No, the T bar can not turn, because there should be a lock nut on the thread. But
it's perfectly possible to rig a trim tab wrong, at least on one side. It's
not obvious on quick visual inspection. Only moving the tabs by hand one at
a time does make sure that they are engaged properly.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net> |
Will,
I placed all my parts in my garage attic where the temps we're hovering
around 140 to 150F. Couldn't get the wings up there so I laid them on a
padded surface in my driveway in the direct sun after I applied the PPG
high build primer. It was dark gray and the temps we're higher than
they would have been after the white final coat so I figured they would
get all the cure they need. After the all day sun I blocked sanded them
down again before final prime and paint. This was my second summer on
them and they're still looking good. I did the same thing for the
fuselage. Hope this helps.
Jeff R.
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 86 hours flying and climbing slowly.
PS. Anyone out there in USA know of a good hypnotist that could
convince my wife's subconscious mind she loves to fly? ;o)
On Sep 11, 2007, at 10:39 AM, Rob Housman wrote:
>
> Short answer: NO.
>
> I have no specific information about the Aeropoxy material (there is
> nothing
> about this on the Aeropoxy web site) but in general for epoxies (and
> other
> thermosetting polymers)the cure temperature affects the glass
> transition
> temperature, T sub g. While the polymerization reaction generally
> behaves
> in the expected fashion, i. e., longer soak at lower temperature being
> somewhat equivalent to a shorter soak at a higher temperature, the
> critical
> factor here is to have the cure temperature high enough to cure the
> epoxy to
> a high T sub g.
>
> The glass transition temperature is actually not a specific
> temperature (the
> melting point of ice for example) but rather a range of temperature
> through
> which the material transitions from being hard and glassy to being
> soft and
> rubbery. The higher the cure temperature the higher the glass
> transition
> temperature, and that translates directly to a stronger airframe when
> ambient temperature is high.
>
> Jos Okhuijsen is correct on both points - cure all parts with builder
> applied epoxy and cure at a temperature higher than you expect to
> encounter.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> Irvine, California
> Europa XS Tri-Gear
> S/N A070
> Airframe complete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Daniell
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:25 AM
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Post cure
>
>
>
> As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
>
> I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
>
> Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same
> results?
>
> Will
>
> 17:43
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> |
William, The data sheet for Ampreg 20 (the resin supplied by Europa
throughout my build) with standard hardener gives the following for
differing post cure regimes:
Post Cure Flexural strength Tensile Strength. Glass transition
Temp
Regime (MPa)
5hrs @ 80 C. 159 80
78 C.
16hrs @ 50 C. 167 85
71 C.
4wks @ RT 126 71
51 C.
Clearly it's well worth while doing a 50 C. post cure, where the bits need
only simple support, as opposed to 80 C where without complex support there
is a risk of them ending up looking like a Salvador Dali painting! I did
mine by making an enclosure from polystyrene sheets and heated by a hair
dryer, with thermometer stuck thru the polystyrene. Other resin systems I
have worked with, have much less benefit from post cure regimes and if you
are not using Ampreg it would be worth looking at the specific data sheet.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Post cure
>
> As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
>
> I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
>
> Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same results?
>
> Will
>
> 17:43
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Al Stills" <astills(at)cox.net> |
Jeff & Will,
While I was building mine I did basically the same but placed the wings in a
black plastic bag and let set in the sun all day.
the temps were in the 110 Deg F and have had no problems. However, I did the
same with the flying surfaces and did have a problem
on the ailerons. I had to pull them back off, straighten them out and then
re-cure them in an oven to 175 Deg F for a few hours. Have had no more
problems with them since then. It's amazing how hot these things get in the
sunlight on a hot day. I consulted with a "expert" on
the cure temps and he basically said to cure them at least 20 deg F over the
hottest temps you expect the surface to get to. While I was flying the
Diamond Katana, the sensor that is in the cockpit and has leads to the
outside surfaces was a no fly set off at 150 deg's f.
Al Stills
N625AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> |
Thanks to all
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Post cure
Short answer: NO.
I have no specific information about the Aeropoxy material (there is nothing
about this on the Aeropoxy web site) but in general for epoxies (and other
thermosetting polymers)the cure temperature affects the glass transition
temperature, T sub g. While the polymerization reaction generally behaves
in the expected fashion, i. e., longer soak at lower temperature being
somewhat equivalent to a shorter soak at a higher temperature, the critical
factor here is to have the cure temperature high enough to cure the epoxy to
a high T sub g.
The glass transition temperature is actually not a specific temperature (the
melting point of ice for example) but rather a range of temperature through
which the material transitions from being hard and glassy to being soft and
rubbery. The higher the cure temperature the higher the glass transition
temperature, and that translates directly to a stronger airframe when
ambient temperature is high.
Jos Okhuijsen is correct on both points - cure all parts with builder
applied epoxy and cure at a temperature higher than you expect to encounter.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS Tri-Gear
S/N A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:25 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Post cure
As I understand it the blue foam bits need post cure.
I believe this is 40C for a period of 24 hours.
Can this be done at a lower heat for longer time to get the same results?
Will
17:43
17:43
17:43
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | StructuraL failure or? |
Hi Josok - well mine turns and it's probably not the only one!
Glenn> Subject: Re: Europa-List
: StructuraL failure or?> From: josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18
ed by: "josok" > > Hi Glenn > No, the T bar can not turn,
because there should be a lock nut on the thread. But it's perfectly possi
ble to rig a trim tab wrong, at least on one side. It's not obvious on quic
k visual inspection. Only moving the tabs by hand one at a time does make s
ure that they are engaged properly. > > Regards,> > Jos Okhuijsen> > > > >
=> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf
=E9.
http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Glenn,
Good that you noticed, now please check the Manual, chapter 19 page 6, and find
the lock nut that you forgot. Better late and in time then another addition to
the statistics.
Regards,
Jos Okhguijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
Please be assured you would know if you attempted a takeoff with the T bar
disconnected - I have done it !!!!
On commencing the takeoff run the stick was VERY back heavy such that when I
started to ease the stick forwards I assumed the controls were jammed and
aborted the takeoff. Gravity makes the trim tabs hang down forcing the
trailing edge of the tailplanes upwards. As this is the normal position for
takeoff (stick hard back till airspeed is reached), the problem dosent
become obvious till the pilot tries to move the stick forward in order to
raise the tailplane. Believe me it isnt something you could miss.
If only one of the pins was engaged this would disengage fairly rapidly.
Even if this didnt occurr there would still be a substantial force acting on
the disengaged tailplane which would be hard to miss. It is unlikely that
this could be trimmed out using the trim servo.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
>
> Hi All,
> As far as i know there is still no conclusion from the AAIB about the
> cause of this one and only structural failure. It keeps buzzing in my
> mind. It is a fact that there should be no slop in tail planes, that the
> bushes should be secure, and that wing pins should be properly attached.
> Period.
> But was it the cause off the accident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal
> movements, then suddenly very steep up and down movements, paper flying
> from the cabin. All according the AAIB report.
> I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been
> communicated before: The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one of
> the anti-trim tab drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything would
> look pretty much OK, feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass the
> T-rod, on which the anti tab would become a pro-tab. This would cause a
> violent movement, on which the pilots correction would cause another and
> so on, until destruction. It would explain the described up and down
> movements eh? Start shooting please!
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Carl
Thanks for your observations.
My question was, what happens if one pin was engaged, and the other one rests on
top of the T bar.
It is possible to (mis)rig that way. The other pin will hold, because like many,
i have a board with a slot just to keep the bar centered.
Would it go unnoticed until the loose pin would pass the bar? Would it tear the
plane apart because of the reverse reactions it would cause?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Erich Trombley" <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Tail Wheel Bearings |
Paul,
I replaced the original tail wheel bearings with sealed ball bearings fr
om a local parts house. If I recall the O.D was a perfect match, howeve
r, a spacer was required for the I.D. The sealed bearings are much quie
ter than the original and do not require maintenance.
Regards,
Erich Trombley
N28ET Classic Mono 914
_____________________________________________________________
Be your own boss today with a Furniture Repair Franchise. Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigjx5y35QLZThw3HGZqXz62W
n4dKZFe4NuYoIuTID64H1yOW/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
Nigel
I don't profess to be in the know with respect to this technology and
probably my attitude belongs to another era but I will not succum to
this type of fix. As far as I'm concerned seeing is believing like the
sight gauge item there's no way better of knowing the tank is full than
seeing fuel in the filler neck. I respect what you say BUT unless there
is no clearance between the pins and holes you can not say the pins are
taking the loads. IOW for there to be differential slop present the pins
don't take the load until they hit the other side of the hole so in the
meantime your loctite is taking the load.
I repeat that my experiences with the nose leg spindle and loctite
"cooks it's goose" for me. I'm prepared to be a prat once but there is
no way you catch me twice thanks.
Regards
Bob Harrison.
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Sent: 11 September 2007 10:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Bob,
If I may make the case for the defence .........
Once upon a time in a life far, far away ......I worked for a company
developing and manufacturing anaerobic adhesives. (No ...it wasn't
Loctite)
Part of my job entailed setting up an running the lab tests to quantify
the
shear and peel strengths of the various formulations under differing
assembly (best case, worst case and typical) cleanliness conditions.
Even though I knew how the adhesive worked, it never ceased to amaze me
how
strong this stuff was.
Some test pieces (typically a "ring and pin" for shear testing) would
fail
before the adhesive.
One can use many adjectives to describe these adhesives, but "Mickey
Mouse"
would be THE most inappropriate.
I CAN imagine the PFA sanctioning their use. Anaerobic adhesives
(Loctite is
just one) are a near-perfect engineering solution to our very real
engineering problem.
They tick all the boxes.
They are low cost, simple to administer, lightweight, strong, chemically
resistant and (with the use of suitably masked heat) easy to
dis-assemble.
Most importantly for us, there is no requirement for the entire surface
area
of the two mating components be completely covered or even completely
de-greased. The surface area of the TP4 is so great, that an anaerobic
will
work even if the adhesive does not wick over the entire surface.
Remember that this is being used in addition to (not in place of) the
standard drive pins. The adhesive's only function is to prevent relative
movement - the pins still take the load.
Regards
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 10 September 2007 22:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au> |
Hello Alan,
you said:-
> Not sure if my tank was the older type, I suspect it wasn't. But the
support straps were firmly bonded to the tank. Hope that helps
Having been empty for "far too long" after installation, my tank
(Classic pre Fluoride treated) rattles around in the cockpit module
almost like a pea in a postman's whistle. The layup of the brackets etc
did not adhere to the tank.
With the revelation of all the cracks in the tanks lately, I am just
curious as to whether there is any correlation between tanks (treated
and untreated) and (brackets bonded or unbonded) to the tanks.
Looks like this matter is almost dead again now so I might just wait
until the topic comes around for its next hearing on the list.
Cheers
Kingsley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au> |
| Subject: | Tail Wheel Bearings |
Hello Erich,
> I replaced the original tail wheel bearings with sealed ball bearings
from a local parts house. If I recall the O.D was a perfect match,
however, a spacer was required for the I.D. The sealed bearings are
much quieter than the original and do not require maintenance.
Like yours, the OD of the bearings I used were also a good fit. How did
you stop the wheel hub from migrating along them ?
I installed a groove with circlips on the inner side of the bearings to
retain them and having not put it all to the test yet, I'm hoping the
circlips will be secure enough for any jarring loads.
Like you, I put a spacer between the inner race.
Cheers
Kingsley
________________________________________________________________________________
Lets hope you don=92t have the problem and therefore don=92t become a
=93contributor=94 to the topic :-)
Cheers
Alan
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley
Hurst
Sent: 11 September 2007 23:56
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tank leaks
Hello Alan,
you said:-
> Not sure if my tank was the older type, I suspect it wasn=92t. But the
support straps were firmly bonded to the tank. Hope that helps
Having been empty for "far too long" after installation, my tank
(Classic
pre Fluoride treated) rattles around in the cockpit module almost like a
pea
in a postman's whistle. The layup of the brackets etc did not adhere to
the
tank.
With the revelation of all the cracks in the tanks lately, I am just
curious
as to whether there is any correlation between tanks (treated and
untreated)
and (brackets bonded or unbonded) to the tanks.
Looks like this matter is almost dead again now so I might just wait
until
the topic comes around for its next hearing on the list.
Cheers
Kingsley
10/09/2007
17:43
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
I have a tip for anyone who is doing Mod 74 from the wing underside.
When it comes to making a foam plug to fill in the access hole the
existing drilled out plug will be too small to fit tightly. I have found
that using a 2.5 inch hole saw makes a plug which is a forced fit for
the hole. It is then only necessary to trim and sand the excess before
doing the layup. The whole job took less than 10 minutes.
Although the access via the rear closeout is neater clearance for the
flap may be compromised as the tolerances are quite close in this area.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Laptop JR" <jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.au> |
Nigel
Thank you for the tip just in time!
JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz
----- Original Message -----
From: nigel charles
To: Forum Europa
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:34 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 74
I have a tip for anyone who is doing Mod 74 from the wing underside.
When it comes to making a foam plug to fill in the access hole the
existing drilled out plug will be too small to fit tightly. I have found
that using a 2.5 inch hole saw makes a plug which is a forced fit for
the hole. It is then only necessary to trim and sand the excess before
doing the layup. The whole job took less than 10 minutes.
Although the access via the rear closeout is neater clearance for the
flap may be compromised as the tolerances are quite close in this area.
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
On the other hand, I have had one of the little plastic bushes in the T-bar
fall out during derigging, although this was spotted before the next flight.
But what could have been the consequence had it not been spotted?
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
>
>
> Please be assured you would know if you attempted a takeoff with the T bar
> disconnected - I have done it !!!!
>
> On commencing the takeoff run the stick was VERY back heavy such that when
> I started to ease the stick forwards I assumed the controls were jammed
> and aborted the takeoff. Gravity makes the trim tabs hang down forcing the
> trailing edge of the tailplanes upwards. As this is the normal position
> for takeoff (stick hard back till airspeed is reached), the problem dosent
> become obvious till the pilot tries to move the stick forward in order to
> raise the tailplane. Believe me it isnt something you could miss.
>
> If only one of the pins was engaged this would disengage fairly rapidly.
> Even if this didnt occurr there would still be a substantial force acting
> on the disengaged tailplane which would be hard to miss. It is unlikely
> that this could be trimmed out using the trim servo.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:23 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
>
>
>>
>> Hi All,
>> As far as i know there is still no conclusion from the AAIB about the
>> cause of this one and only structural failure. It keeps buzzing in my
>> mind. It is a fact that there should be no slop in tail planes, that the
>> bushes should be secure, and that wing pins should be properly attached.
>> Period.
>> But was it the cause off the accident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal
>> movements, then suddenly very steep up and down movements, paper flying
>> from the cabin. All according the AAIB report.
>> I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been
>> communicated before: The plane was rigged by three persons. What if one
>> of the anti-trim tab drive pins was not in but on the T-rod? Everything
>> would look pretty much OK, feel pretty much OK, until the pin would pass
>> the T-rod, on which the anti tab would become a pro-tab. This would
>> cause a violent movement, on which the pilots correction would cause
>> another and so on, until destruction. It would explain the described up
>> and down movements eh? Start shooting please!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jos Okhuijsen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Hi! All
Today I began to enjoy fuel economy..!
I and my observer brother did a 2 hour 2 landing trip with a couple of
timed climbs commencing initially at 1370 lbs and used only 24
litres(best capable measure since I wouldn't claim a scientific
measure!). Ambient temp/pressure was 22deg C /1024. Generally the
Manifold pressure was maintained to 27 inches excepting a timed
1000ft/2000ft. 100% power climb at 85kts
80seconds.... one hour later (fuel used lighter) 1,500ft/2500ft...115%
power climb at 80kts..60seconds ...I failed to collect the manifold
pressures during the climbs. However the intake manifold locally
insulated surface temperature was 31.1deg C during the initial climb
and 35 deg C during the high power climb. 100- 110kt cruise 5,150 RPM
the intake manifold temp at 2000ft was 27.4 deg C. (but in this instance
the manifold pressure was 29")
Intake manifold temp. at 1000ft 70kts was 30.8 deg C . At 100kt cruise
the coolant temperature was 92 deg C . Oil temperature was 98 deg C with
oil pressure at 2 bar.
I am using "Mobil One" 0w -40w and find myself wanting to increase the
oil pressure somewhat although the light viscosity oil must be "reaching
places where more viscous oils don't reach !" Would anyone care to pass
comment on the suitability of a higher oil pressure and the generally
accepted best climb speed, please?
The engine does not now appear to be using/loosing oil from
engine/turbo.
The rising coolant temps. on the sustained 115% climb would not have
enabled a 5 minute climb.
Would any capable statistician care to crunch/"nit pick" these figures ?
and make appropriate recommendations with regards to the oil pressure ?
and does anyone have any comparable intake manifold locally insulated
surface temps without an intercooler fitted?
A radio test at 20nm 2,000ft was effected at "fives" abeam and
approaching Humberside Radar an item near impossible with the Jabiru
installation!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
PS the stabilator torque tube clamps worked fine and won't need any heat
to remove them !!!!!!
Robt.C.Harrison
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | StructuraL failure or? |
All
I believe Roger Bull had an incident with the servo trim tabs which
resulted in the modification which stiffened the drive pin plates.
Perhaps he would kindly contribute to this thread?
When I had my trim motor "failing to reverse" without going to full
travel position problem, the forces on the control stick were enormous
to such a degree I allowed the plane to climb momentarily until it
reached full trim nose up position before reversing the mode of
operation. I would have had great difficulty landing in this
configuration in fact I doubt it possible.
Regards
Bob H.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan &
Ami McFadyean
Sent: 12 September 2007 10:38
Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
On the other hand, I have had one of the little plastic bushes in the
T-bar
fall out during derigging, although this was spotted before the next
flight.
But what could have been the consequence had it not been spotted?
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
>
>
> Please be assured you would know if you attempted a takeoff with the T
bar
> disconnected - I have done it !!!!
>
> On commencing the takeoff run the stick was VERY back heavy such that
when
> I started to ease the stick forwards I assumed the controls were
jammed
> and aborted the takeoff. Gravity makes the trim tabs hang down forcing
the
> trailing edge of the tailplanes upwards. As this is the normal
position
> for takeoff (stick hard back till airspeed is reached), the problem
dosent
> become obvious till the pilot tries to move the stick forward in order
to
> raise the tailplane. Believe me it isnt something you could miss.
>
> If only one of the pins was engaged this would disengage fairly
rapidly.
> Even if this didnt occurr there would still be a substantial force
acting
> on the disengaged tailplane which would be hard to miss. It is
unlikely
> that this could be trimmed out using the trim servo.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:23 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
>
>
>>
>> Hi All,
>> As far as i know there is still no conclusion from the AAIB about the
>> cause of this one and only structural failure. It keeps buzzing in my
>> mind. It is a fact that there should be no slop in tail planes, that
the
>> bushes should be secure, and that wing pins should be properly
attached.
>> Period.
>> But was it the cause off the accident? Speed 90 knots, no abnormal
>> movements, then suddenly very steep up and down movements, paper
flying
>> from the cabin. All according the AAIB report.
>> I received the following suggestion, which i think has not been
>> communicated before: The plane was rigged by three persons. What if
one
>> of the anti-trim tab drive pins was not in but on the T-rod?
Everything
>> would look pretty much OK, feel pretty much OK, until the pin would
pass
>> the T-rod, on which the anti tab would become a pro-tab. This would
>> cause a violent movement, on which the pilots correction would cause
>> another and so on, until destruction. It would explain the described
up
>> and down movements eh? Start shooting please!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jos Okhuijsen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Bob,
>
> Generally the Manifold pressure was maintained to 27 inches excepting
> a timed 1000ft/2000ft 100% power climb at 85kts
>
> 80seconds.. one hour later (fuel used lighter) 1,500ft/2500ft..115%
> power climb at 80kts.60seconds .I failed to collect the manifold
> pressures during the climbs. However the intake manifold locally
> insulated surface temperature was 31.1deg C during the initial climb
> and 35 deg C during the high power climb. 100- 110kt cruise 5,150 RPM
> the intake manifold temp at 2000ft was 27.4 deg C. (but in this
> instance the manifold pressure was 29)
>
Our usual settings are as follows :
39"/5800 => 115 % for take off
35"/5500 => 100 % initial climb
31"/5000 => 75 % for cruise & climb
29"/4800 => 65 % for economical cruise
28"/4300 => 55 % (very rarely used)
I don't know the output for 5150 RPM.
27" seems rather low for break in : you need manifold pressure for the
rings to bed in.
> Intake manifold temp. at 1000ft 70kts was 30.8 deg C . At 100kt cruise
> the coolant temperature was 92 deg C . Oil temperature was 98 deg C
> with oil pressure at 2 bar.
>
> I am using Mobil One 0w -40w and find myself wanting to increase the
> oil pressure somewhat although the light viscosity oil must be
> reaching places where more viscous oils dont reach ! Would anyone
> care to pass comment on the suitability of a higher oil pressure and
> the generally accepted best climb speed, please?
>
> The engine does not now appear to be using/loosing oil from engine/turbo.
>
> The rising coolant temps. on the sustained 115% climb would not have
> enabled a 5 minute climb.
>
Our cooling setup allows for close to 5 minutes 115 % climb, but we
never bothered to wait until the 5 minute light flashes.
I usually reduce power to 100 % as soon as I'm airborne.
>
> Would any capable statistician care to crunch/nit pick these figures
> ? and make appropriate recommendations with regards to the oil
> pressure ? and does anyone have any comparable intake manifold locally
> insulated surface temps without an intercooler fitted?
>
Unfortunately, we did not make those measurements, and our engine is
intercooled. We focused on airbox temperatures.
Yes the 914 oil pressure seems lowish, but it is the way the engine works.
Remember the oil pressure is usually measured at the oil pump, but we
have no means to know what the pressure actually is at the journals,
etc...Certainly much lower than the healthy number usually displayed by
the gauge on other engines.
Sooo, as long as the pressure stays within the manufacturer's numbers...
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Simon Smith" <jodel(at)nildram.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
>I am using "Mobil One" 0w -40w
Bob,
Page 10-9 of the 914 operators manual which covers Lubricants starts with:-
Oil: Motorcycle oil of a registered brand with gear additives. As far as I
can see from the Mobil.co.uk site, Mobil 1 is not a motorcycle oil.
Over the page on 10-10 fig 13 is a table giving multigrade weights according
to climatic conditions. 0W-40 is not listed.
In Rotax SI-914-019 there are two tables listing recommended oils. Read the
notes under the table and you will see that some are "recommended" while
others are "highly recommended" None of them are 10W-40. If you ask all
the UK 91x owners I suspect that you will find most are using Shell VSX4
10W40
Simon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Bob, 2 Bar for oil pressure is very low for my 914, for any other than
idling speed with very hot oil.It much more commonly runs around the 4 Bar
level. 2 bar is actually the warning limit for the Flydat system when it
starts flashing lights at you! Shell VSX4 came out in various articles as
the clear top choice as I remember it. I wouldn't be happy running generally
at as low a pressure as that. I would be inclined to check your oil
pressure sender if you can, then change your oil, (for VSX 4) then if still
low put a shimmy in the oil pressure relief valve under the gear box.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
> Hi! All
> Today I began to enjoy fuel economy..!
>
> I and my observer brother did a 2 hour 2 landing trip with a couple of
> timed climbs commencing initially at 1370 lbs and used only 24
> litres(best capable measure since I wouldn't claim a scientific
> measure!). Ambient temp/pressure was 22deg C /1024. Generally the
> Manifold pressure was maintained to 27 inches excepting a timed
> 1000ft/2000ft. 100% power climb at 85kts
> 80seconds.... one hour later (fuel used lighter) 1,500ft/2500ft...115%
> power climb at 80kts..60seconds ...I failed to collect the manifold
> pressures during the climbs. However the intake manifold locally
> insulated surface temperature was 31.1deg C during the initial climb
> and 35 deg C during the high power climb. 100- 110kt cruise 5,150 RPM
> the intake manifold temp at 2000ft was 27.4 deg C. (but in this instance
> the manifold pressure was 29")
> Intake manifold temp. at 1000ft 70kts was 30.8 deg C . At 100kt cruise
> the coolant temperature was 92 deg C . Oil temperature was 98 deg C with
> oil pressure at 2 bar.
> I am using "Mobil One" 0w -40w and find myself wanting to increase the
> oil pressure somewhat although the light viscosity oil must be "reaching
> places where more viscous oils don't reach !" Would anyone care to pass
> comment on the suitability of a higher oil pressure and the generally
> accepted best climb speed, please?
> The engine does not now appear to be using/loosing oil from
> engine/turbo.
> The rising coolant temps. on the sustained 115% climb would not have
> enabled a 5 minute climb.
>
> Would any capable statistician care to crunch/"nit pick" these figures ?
> and make appropriate recommendations with regards to the oil pressure ?
> and does anyone have any comparable intake manifold locally insulated
> surface temps without an intercooler fitted?
> A radio test at 20nm 2,000ft was effected at "fives" abeam and
> approaching Humberside Radar an item near impossible with the Jabiru
> installation!
>
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> PS the stabilator torque tube clamps worked fine and won't need any heat
> to remove them !!!!!!
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham(at)btclick.com> |
| Subject: | Play in tailplane drive - Loctite |
....here you go Bob.
I thought you might appreciate this ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 11 September 2007 23:29
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Nigel
I don't profess to be in the know with respect to this technology and
probably my attitude belongs to another era but I will not succum to
this type of fix. As far as I'm concerned seeing is believing like the
sight gauge item there's no way better of knowing the tank is full than
seeing fuel in the filler neck. I respect what you say BUT unless there
is no clearance between the pins and holes you can not say the pins are
taking the loads. IOW for there to be differential slop present the pins
don't take the load until they hit the other side of the hole so in the
meantime your loctite is taking the load.
I repeat that my experiences with the nose leg spindle and loctite
"cooks it's goose" for me. I'm prepared to be a prat once but there is
no way you catch me twice thanks.
Regards
Bob Harrison.
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Sent: 11 September 2007 10:38
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Bob,
If I may make the case for the defence .........
Once upon a time in a life far, far away ......I worked for a company
developing and manufacturing anaerobic adhesives. (No ...it wasn't
Loctite)
Part of my job entailed setting up an running the lab tests to quantify
the
shear and peel strengths of the various formulations under differing
assembly (best case, worst case and typical) cleanliness conditions.
Even though I knew how the adhesive worked, it never ceased to amaze me
how
strong this stuff was.
Some test pieces (typically a "ring and pin" for shear testing) would
fail
before the adhesive.
One can use many adjectives to describe these adhesives, but "Mickey
Mouse"
would be THE most inappropriate.
I CAN imagine the PFA sanctioning their use. Anaerobic adhesives
(Loctite is
just one) are a near-perfect engineering solution to our very real
engineering problem.
They tick all the boxes.
They are low cost, simple to administer, lightweight, strong, chemically
resistant and (with the use of suitably masked heat) easy to
dis-assemble.
Most importantly for us, there is no requirement for the entire surface
area
of the two mating components be completely covered or even completely
de-greased. The surface area of the TP4 is so great, that an anaerobic
will
work even if the adhesive does not wick over the entire surface.
Remember that this is being used in addition to (not in place of) the
standard drive pins. The adhesive's only function is to prevent relative
movement - the pins still take the load.
Regards
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Sent: 10 September 2007 22:40
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Steve,
IMHO I can not imaging how anyone could force you to use such a mickey
mouse fix as glue? And what's more I can not imagine the PFA giving its
blessing ? At what loading does it separate? What repeatability of
performance can be shown ? How can degreasing be guaranteed? Unless it
is used for destructive testing! Better use Jubilee clips ...at least
that is a known quantity factor! The PFA wouldn't clear that either !
Regards
Bob Harrison.
PS Sorry but I can not contain my opinion any longer!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: 10 September 2007 21:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Play in tailplane drive - Loctite
Hi, Do you Know if we will be forced to Loctite the torquetube together?
I for one do not want to willingly use loctite, i would prefer to use
Bobs clamps as
removal would be far easier.
steve vestuti G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Bob,
Yes, i noticed the enormous effect of the trim-tabs.
Trim to the limits at cruise was one of the items in the test program for my plane.
And, exactly as in your experience, the forces, especially for the nose-up
situation, were so much, that i was afraid something would break.
The experience changed my opinion about the danger of the your out-of-control trim
motor story, which i clearly remember.
I have now a clear marking next to the pullable circuit breaker for the trim system,
on the panel and in my mind, should this ever happen.
Now i am writing this, i realize that the other action would be to slow down the
plane, it would probably lower the stick forces to a manageable level as well.
To be checked!
Still waiting for opinions on the one not-connected trim-tab leading to destruction
scenario though!
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Bob,
As others have stated, it's the wrong oil, it has to have additions for the gears,
and should not contain additives which will makes the safety clutch slip in
a while.
Mine has now done about 35 flying hours, and the temperatures have come down a
lot. I also had to lower the idle running speed, while during the first hours
the engine used to stop in the landing run-out. In other words, it needs a lot
of breaking in.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "h&jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net> |
Paul,
Contact me off list about this. butcher43(at)att.net
Jim Butcher
N241BW
Do Not Archieve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=134200#134200
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Simon Smith a crit :
> In Rotax SI-914-019 there are two tables listing recommended oils.
> Read the notes under the table and you will see that some are
> recommended while others are highly recommended None of them are
> 10W-40. If you ask all the UK 91x owners I suspect that you will find
> most are using Shell VSX4 10W40
> * *
Bob, Simon and all,
Just had our French dealer on the phone.
He confirms that 2 bar is lowish but well within the operating limits,
and doesn't see any reasons for concern or mod.
Concerning oils, he says the Mobil 1 oils listed in SI-914-019 are OK :
Mobil 1 SAE 5W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 15W-50
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50
All are for unleaded fuel only, the last two are "highly recommended".
FWIW.
Concerning best climb speed, it is a matter of minutes to perform
several timed climbs at different speeds, keeping the same power setting.
BTW, can you elaborate about your "intake manifold locally insulated
surface temps" measurements ? What is the purpose of these measurements
? Ice prevention ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Hello Bob,
Very pleased to see you are slowly being bitten by the Rotax Bug. My
oil pressure is usually around 2.4 Bar in the cruise but the oil and
water temperatures settle back to more like 70 degs C - a bit too cold.
A climb speed of 80kts is about Vx for G-JULZ Vy being not more than a
couple of knots higher. But practically, if I am going somewhere I tend
to climb on track about 100kts it gives a decent rate of climb, it helps
with the cooling on a summers day and it enables better lookout ahead.
Now you have got rid of that other 'lump' I think that you will quickly
realise the added performance you now have.
I still think you need to open up the cowling gills though.
fly safe,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: R.C.Harrison
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
Hi! All
Today I began to enjoy fuel economy..!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Say,
I thought I'd share a story with you - you, who have the original
trailer.....
It's been so long in the build, and the trailer was at home, I
thought to see how well the stabs sat in it, with the fuselage aboard -
perhaps even a photo opportunity.
On they went, slick as a whistle.
However, on retrieving the pair, the fascinating little black plug
that ends the tube holding them was missing. Can you guess where it hides?
Yes, in the bottom of the stab hole.
Any suggestions as to the recovery of the little black plug would be
gratefully received here. In the meantime, take all rational measures to
prevent another loss.
Cheers, ferg
Wiring, wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
David,
G-JULZ has always run at 2.4 Bar in the cruise since new. I remember
talking to Andy Draper about it and he said it was normal and that G-GBXS
also ran at 2.4 Bar.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
>
>
> Bob, 2 Bar for oil pressure is very low for my 914, for any other than
> idling speed with very hot oil.It much more commonly runs around the 4 Bar
> level. 2 bar is actually the warning limit for the Flydat system when it
> starts flashing lights at you! Shell VSX4 came out in various articles as
> the clear top choice as I remember it. I wouldn't be happy running
> generally
> at as low a pressure as that. I would be inclined to check your oil
> pressure sender if you can, then change your oil, (for VSX 4) then if
> still
> low put a shimmy in the oil pressure relief valve under the gear box.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:37 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
>
>
>> Hi! All
>> Today I began to enjoy fuel economy..!
>>
>> I and my observer brother did a 2 hour 2 landing trip with a couple of
>> timed climbs commencing initially at 1370 lbs and used only 24
>> litres(best capable measure since I wouldn't claim a scientific
>> measure!). Ambient temp/pressure was 22deg C /1024. Generally the
>> Manifold pressure was maintained to 27 inches excepting a timed
>> 1000ft/2000ft. 100% power climb at 85kts
>> 80seconds.... one hour later (fuel used lighter) 1,500ft/2500ft...115%
>> power climb at 80kts..60seconds ...I failed to collect the manifold
>> pressures during the climbs. However the intake manifold locally
>> insulated surface temperature was 31.1deg C during the initial climb
>> and 35 deg C during the high power climb. 100- 110kt cruise 5,150 RPM
>> the intake manifold temp at 2000ft was 27.4 deg C. (but in this instance
>> the manifold pressure was 29")
>> Intake manifold temp. at 1000ft 70kts was 30.8 deg C . At 100kt cruise
>> the coolant temperature was 92 deg C . Oil temperature was 98 deg C with
>> oil pressure at 2 bar.
>> I am using "Mobil One" 0w -40w and find myself wanting to increase the
>> oil pressure somewhat although the light viscosity oil must be "reaching
>> places where more viscous oils don't reach !" Would anyone care to pass
>> comment on the suitability of a higher oil pressure and the generally
>> accepted best climb speed, please?
>> The engine does not now appear to be using/loosing oil from
>> engine/turbo.
>> The rising coolant temps. on the sustained 115% climb would not have
>> enabled a 5 minute climb.
>>
>> Would any capable statistician care to crunch/"nit pick" these figures ?
>> and make appropriate recommendations with regards to the oil pressure ?
>> and does anyone have any comparable intake manifold locally insulated
>> surface temps without an intercooler fitted?
>> A radio test at 20nm 2,000ft was effected at "fives" abeam and
>> approaching Humberside Radar an item near impossible with the Jabiru
>> installation!
>>
>> Regards
>> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>>
>> PS the stabilator torque tube clamps worked fine and won't need any heat
>> to remove them !!!!!!
>>
>> Robt.C.Harrison
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 13/09/2007 11:45
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Davey" <europaflyer_3(at)msn.com> |
Ferg,
Long stick, blob of Redux, apply down hole to plug and allow to cure. When
cured, wheedle out plug in the knowledge it is well and truly stuck to the
stick!
HTH!
Kind regards,
Jeremy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: 13 September 2007 16:58
Subject: Europa-List: Quandary
Say,
I thought I'd share a story with you - you, who have the original
trailer.....
It's been so long in the build, and the trailer was at home, I
thought to see how well the stabs sat in it, with the fuselage aboard -
perhaps even a photo opportunity.
On they went, slick as a whistle.
However, on retrieving the pair, the fascinating little black plug
that ends the tube holding them was missing. Can you guess where it hides?
Yes, in the bottom of the stab hole.
Any suggestions as to the recovery of the little black plug would be
gratefully received here. In the meantime, take all rational measures to
prevent another loss.
Cheers, ferg
Wiring, wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ferg Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Jeremy
I thought of that but if the Redux managed to touch the circumference on its
long and tortuous voyage I might not get the stab tube into the stab when it
cures.................. Perhaps if I surrounded the stick with a tube of foam...?
It may be I can stab the bung with a drywall screw and twist the little #$%^&*
into the black ------ plastic and haul it out that way.
Anyway, thanks for the rapid reply!
Ferg
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some speed
measurements today. The results are as follows:
Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C, that
is density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is approx 60
percent power, TAS 133 kts.
Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
power, TAS 130 kts.
With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full
throttle, 5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight: 520kg.
All 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed using
the GPS 3 segments method.
Best regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Rotax 914 performance info request.... |
Hi! Gilles
Thanks for your info. provided re.oils etc.
The temperature I'm giving as "Intake manifold surface temperatures" is
my attempt at discovering the effects of the intercooler. I have a
temperature sensor which I can move around the cowl and in the intake
manifold case it is strapped to the manifold and then suitably insulated
from outside effect
The readings then obtained were a rough indication of the temperature
drop compared to the ambient.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: 13 September 2007 16:46
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 performance info request....
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Simon Smith a crit :
> In Rotax SI-914-019 there are two tables listing recommended oils.
> Read the notes under the table and you will see that some are
> recommended while others are highly recommended None of them are
> 10W-40. If you ask all the UK 91x owners I suspect that you will find
> most are using Shell VSX4 10W40
> * *
Bob, Simon and all,
Just had our French dealer on the phone.
He confirms that 2 bar is lowish but well within the operating limits,
and doesn't see any reasons for concern or mod.
Concerning oils, he says the Mobil 1 oils listed in SI-914-019 are OK :
Mobil 1 SAE 5W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 15W-50
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50
All are for unleaded fuel only, the last two are "highly recommended".
FWIW.
Concerning best climb speed, it is a matter of minutes to perform
several timed climbs at different speeds, keeping the same power
setting.
BTW, can you elaborate about your "intake manifold locally insulated
surface temps" measurements ? What is the purpose of these measurements
? Ice prevention ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
Hi Remi,
Only a couple of knots gain? Disappointing to say the least. Did you have
the tail wheel fairing fitted ? I haven't fitted mine and I am wondering if
it is worth the effort.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Remi Guerner
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:24 PM
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some speed
measurements today. The results are as follows:
Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C, that is
density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is approx 60 percent
power, TAS 133 kts.
Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
power, TAS 130 kts.
With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full throttle,
5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight: 520kg.
All 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed using the
GPS 3 segments method.
Best regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Ferg,
Try a vacuum cleaner with some plastic tube on it to suck the plug out ?
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ferg Kyle <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Sent: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 7.05pm
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Quandary
Jeremy
I thought of that but if the Redux managed to touch the circumference on
its long and tortuous voyage I might not get the stab tube into the stab when it
cures.................. Perhaps if I surrounded the stick with a tube of
foam...?
It may be I can stab the bung with a drywall screw and twist the little
#$%^&* into the black ------ plastic and haul it out that way.
Anyway, thanks for the rapid reply!
Ferg
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE AOL Email account with unlimited storage. Plus, share and store photos and experience exclusively recorded live music Sessions from your favourite artists. Find out more at http://info.aol.co.uk/joinnow/?ncid=548.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "G-IANI" <g-iani(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
Old Sarum Europa Fly In Update
Saturday September 15, 2007
Please check the NOTAMS
The Red Arrows are expected at Middle Wallop
Time not yet known
see Mod 64B (High Top with lowered cowl and bigger screen)
Non Flying builders and potential owners Welcome
You might even get a ride
If you plan (weather permitting) to attend please contact
Ian Rickard on 01483 714096 or e-mail (g-iani
(at)ntlworld.com)
By letting me know we can organise reserved Tables for Lunch (or
Barbeque depending on numbers)
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Keith Hickling <keithhickling(at)clear.net.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
Jos,
I don't understand why you are suggesting that if one drive pin is not
connected to the T bar, the anti-servo tabs would function in reverse (ie
causing positive instead of negative feedback to tailplane movement, so
causing instability. I don't see why the unconnected one should move in
reverse direction. Can you explain your thoughts in more detail?
Regards,
Keith.
New Zealand.
----- Original Message -----
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Yes, i noticed the enormous effect of the trim-tabs.
> Trim to the limits at cruise was one of the items in the test program for
> my plane. And, exactly as in your experience, the forces, especially for
> the nose-up situation, were so much, that i was afraid something would
> break.
>
> The experience changed my opinion about the danger of the your
> out-of-control trim motor story, which i clearly remember.
> I have now a clear marking next to the pullable circuit breaker for the
> trim system, on the panel and in my mind, should this ever happen.
>
> Now i am writing this, i realize that the other action would be to slow
> down the plane, it would probably lower the stick forces to a manageable
> level as well. To be checked!
>
> Still waiting for opinions on the one not-connected trim-tab leading to
> destruction scenario though!
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
Hi Paul,
Yes I have the whole eleven fairings fitted. That includes the tail
wheel fairing. I agree this is disappointing given the up to nine knots
gain claimed by the factory. However all those fairings enhance the look
of the airplane, protect the outrigger mechanism and prevent mud
projections from the little wheels... and removed 1.2 kg from my useful
load.
Remi
Only a couple of knots gain? Disappointing to say the least. Did you
have
the tail wheel fairing fitted ? I haven't fitted mine and I am
wondering if
it is worth the effort.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Remi Guerner
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:24 PM
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some
speed
measurements today. The results are as follows:
Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C,
that is
density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is approx 60
percent
power, TAS 133 kts.
Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
power, TAS 130 kts.
With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full
throttle,
5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight:
520kg.
All 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed using
the
GPS 3 segments method.
Best regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Keith,
Thanks for making clear that it is not so obvious. :-) Let me try again, in as
much detail as i can think of.
While rigging the tail planes, it is possible to have one anti-trim-tab drive pin
on top of the TS05 t-bar instead of in. Once that is done, it will be difficult
to see the difference. Gravity will keep the pin on top, there is no room
for the pin to fall past the t-bar. The pitch control system will work, the trim
tabs will move up and down just like in the proper rigging situ.
Now we go flying. Everything will seem fine. Then, some turbulence or input force
on the pitch trim system forces the trim tab drive pin past, down of the t-bar.
The trim tab will now be pointing downwards of the original position. Remember,
these are anti-trim tabs, so not only the trim will way off, but also the
feed-back is wrong, opposite of what the pilot would expect. That's what i
mean be reverse effect. So the nose is going down, and the force on the stick
is up! As we know, the all moving tail pitch control is very powerful. Imagine
you are happy flying along, maybe with a little bit of back pressure on the stick,
and all of a sudden the stick wants to move backwards, and the plane pitches
sharp UP. The first reaction will be to control the stick, which, because
of the error in the pitch control and the lack of anti forces, will cause awesome
forces, lots of Gs. The next input will be opposite, and IMHO could start
breaking things apart. The lack of anti-forces, tog
ether with the trim badly off track will cause a Pilot Induced Oscillation way
beyond what ever could happen with a connected anti-trim-tab.
Well, that's the theory, and folks, please try to put it to rest.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Davey" <europaflyer_3(at)msn.com> |
Fair point. Double-sided sticky tape? Depends on how much 'tug' you need to
give it, I guess.
Cheers,
Jeremy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ferg Kyle
Sent: 13 September 2007 19:06
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Quandary
Jeremy
I thought of that but if the Redux managed to touch the circumference
on its long and tortuous voyage I might not get the stab tube into the stab
when it cures.................. Perhaps if I surrounded the stick with a
tube of foam...?
It may be I can stab the bung with a drywall screw and twist the little
#$%^&* into the black ------ plastic and haul it out that way.
Anyway, thanks for the rapid reply!
Ferg
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
How about the low tech approach (bubble gum on a stick)?
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS Tri-Gear
S/N A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ferg Kyle
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Quandary
Jeremy
I thought of that but if the Redux managed to touch the circumference
on its long and tortuous voyage I might not get the stab tube into the stab
when it cures.................. Perhaps if I surrounded the stick with a
tube of foam...?
It may be I can stab the bung with a drywall screw and twist the little
#$%^&* into the black ------ plastic and haul it out that way.
Anyway, thanks for the rapid reply!
Ferg
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
MessageUnless im missing something NOTAMS indicates there to be a flying
display at Middle Wallop all day from 6.30am until 4.30pm with a 5 mile
exclusion zone up to 6000 ft. No indication of what route, height or
time the Red Arrows might arrive or depart. Its all a bit wooly !
Hopefully those versed in the art of deciphering NOTAMS will be able to
extract some more useful information.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: G-IANI
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 8:05 AM
Subject: FW: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
Old Sarum Europa Fly In Update
Saturday September 15, 2007
Please check the NOTAMS
The Red Arrows are expected at Middle Wallop
Time not yet known
see Mod 64B (High Top with lowered cowl and bigger screen)
Non Flying builders and potential owners Welcome
You might even get a ride
If you plan (weather permitting) to attend please contact
Ian Rickard on 01483 714096 or e-mail (g-iani(at)ntlworld.com)
By letting me know we can organise reserved Tables for Lunch (or
Barbeque depending on numbers)
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
Better do it quick.
Apparently some boffin has just invented non stick bubblegum/ chewing gum.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <rob@hyperion-ef.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Quandary
>
> How about the low tech approach (bubble gum on a stick)?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> Irvine, California
> Europa XS Tri-Gear
> S/N A070
> Airframe complete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ferg Kyle
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:06 AM
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Quandary
>
>
> Jeremy
> I thought of that but if the Redux managed to touch the circumference
> on its long and tortuous voyage I might not get the stab tube into the
> stab
> when it cures.................. Perhaps if I surrounded the stick with a
> tube of foam...?
> It may be I can stab the bung with a drywall screw and twist the
> little
> #$%^&* into the black ------ plastic and haul it out that way.
>
> Anyway, thanks for the rapid reply!
> Ferg
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
| From: | "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net> |
Hi, i belive it is a flypast,
15 September
1234 take off from Jersey
1300 Reds flypast Middle Wallop
1310 land Filton
Steve G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mark(at)ouce.ox.ac.uk> |
| Subject: | Europa kit for sale on Ebay |
Hi,
It is with great sadness that I have to put my kit up for sale. Business
interestes over the last 4 years have halted work on the kit due to lack of
time. The kit has been put onto Ebay with what I think is a reasonable
starting price. Anyone interested can see it at
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280153455677. Some
of you will probably recognise your own plane in a few picures I have added
to the advert, I hope you don't mind.
Once sold, I will be on the lookout for a finished plane.
Cheers,
Mark.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ROGER MILLS <roger.mills(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Remi,
A few years ago I measured the speed difference "before and after" for my monowheel
speed kit over a range of speeds from 90 to 135 kts. The lower speed gain
was only about 5 kts but, understandably because drag increases at speed squared,
the top of the speed range had an 8 kt gain. Overall, the average gain
over this speed range was 6.5kts.
It's a worthwhile improvement in speed especially if you cruise at 120kts+ but
I can't help thinking that the design of the fairings could be improved. All
of the flap bracket fairings have a very broad trailing edge and the curved,
open tops at the back must induce drag as the air curls over into it.
Regards
Roger Mills
G-BVUV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Gamble" <mp.gamble(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
MessageThanks Ian. A marvelous day with all those Europa's on view and
such fantastic weather. A great insentive for me to get on and finish my
own project. I shall press on.
Regards
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Scanlan" <avgashead(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
I can second that, good to see some Europa's meeting up. Next time I
hope to be travelling up in mine instead of my Emeraude. Thanks Paddy
for taking so much time to explain your fuel system layout at
Treborough! Hope you all had as good a flight home as I did.
Richard Scanlan
#103
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gamble
Sent: 15 September 2007 21:08
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
Thanks Ian. A marvelous day with all those Europa's on view and such
fantastic weather. A great insentive for me to get on and finish my own
project. I shall press on.
Regards
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Pottorff" <Richard_Pottorff(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? |
Hi,
I'm considerably larger than the FAA standard pilot - 6'3", 210 or so
lbs. I'm seriously considering building a Europa XL, but after reading a
CAF=C9 Foundation Europa Classic APR, I'm concerned there might not be
enough leg and head room. Shoulder room shouldn't be a problem; I'm
taking flying lessons in a Cessna 172, and it only has a 40" wide
cockpit. I'm jammed against the door, but its not uncomfortable.
I'm currently in Wichita, KS, and occasionally rent airline seats for
the ride back to my real home in Silicon Valley (San Jose, CA area). So,
any builders local to either area that have enough of the fuselage
finished for me to check out my fit in an XS that would let me sit in it
for a couple of minutes?
Thanks,
Richard Pottorff
(C) 408 747 7286
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? |
Hi Richard,
I live on the east side of Wichita and have my Europa based in Augusta 9
miles east. It first flew in 1999 so you are more than welcome to sit in
it. You might also consider the 'high top' version which the Europa
Company also offers which provides a little more headroom. I'm 5 ft 10
and there is 3-4 inches clearance but then I have some pretty thick seat
cushions.
Give me a call sometime on 316-685-4275.
Also take a look at the website: http://ourworld.cs.com/MJKTuck
Regards,
Martin Tuck
N152MT
Wichita, Kansas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
...Interesting to read your DOTH ideas, especially the Arrows' timings. Ten
minutes from the Wallop to Bristol............ Do you know if they spread
out enroute or is it too short to change from a gaggle to crispycrackers?
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
Hi, Just a couple more points on this topic! Two years ago a friend of mine with
his owner/build partner flew with one trim tab's pin disengaged (for 200 nm
to the PFA Kemble rally infact!) and they didn't notice any difference! Neither
were very experienced on the Europa at the time though having only recently
finished it. My friend (his turn to fly home) noticed it on his preflight walk
around at Kemble.
I think they were both very lucky. Yesterday, as a result of this topic, when
I was at my plane I deliberately "accidently" rigged the tailplanes with a pin
disengaged, to see what happens to the tab and T-bar. I started with the pin
resting on top of the T-bar. On mine the pin sits naturally on top of the bar
towards the rear of it. On moving the elevator control the pin can very easily
drop to beneath the bar and does so readily. Personally I don't think this
would have an enormous aerodynamic effect, the tab is very light and I think
it would just stream with the airflow if it's not fixed to the actuating mechanism
(my uneducated opinion) [b:57be851a4b]BUT, what I did notice was that with
the pin below the T-bar, when I moved the stick fully back the pin was able
to drop a bit lower and lodge on top of that funny fuselage joggle/ moulding
that sticks out from the fuselage vertically parallel to the T-bar slot, very
effectively jamming the elevator almost fully up.[/b
:57be851a4b] On mine it did it every time I tried it and was impossible to free
from the cockpit.
Easy solution - do not fly a mis-rigged aeroplane!
Cheers, Jon
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Scanlan" <avgashead(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? |
Hi Richard, I=92m 6=925=92=92 and did a high top mod on mine and now
have the
option of adding extra padding to lift my head up to the cockpit roof.
>From new the factory offer this mod or (as mine) you can introduce this
mod on a part built kit. Also Ian Rickard has introduced the high
top/low top mod which is the best of both worlds. Contact him through
the forum.
Richard Scanlan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Pottorff
Sent: 16 September 2007 02:03
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size?
Hi,
I'm considerably larger than the FAA standard pilot - 6'3", 210 or so
lbs. I'm seriously considering building a Europa XL, but after reading a
CAF=C9 Foundation Europa Classic APR, I'm concerned there might not be
enough leg and head room. Shoulder room shouldn't be a problem; I'm
taking flying lessons in a Cessna 172, and it only has a 40" wide
cockpit. I'm jammed against the door, but its not uncomfortable.
I'm currently in Wichita, KS, and occasionally rent airline seats for
the ride back to my real home in Silicon Valley (San Jose, CA area). So,
any builders local to either area that have enough of the fuselage
finished for me to check out my fit in an XS that would let me sit in it
for a couple of minutes?
Thanks,
Richard Pottorff
(C) 408 747 7286
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? |
Hi,
I am 6' 3" and 196 lbs (14st) and have a standard original classic
Europa. Never had a problem with legroom and when seated there is a at
least an inch between my head (including headsets) and the canopy at the
nearest point.
Im in the UK though so cant help with a test ride.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Pottorff
To: europa-list
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:03 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size?
Hi,
I'm considerably larger than the FAA standard pilot - 6'3", 210 or so
lbs. I'm seriously considering building a Europa XL, but after reading a
CAF=C9 Foundation Europa Classic APR, I'm concerned there might not be
enough leg and head room. Shoulder room shouldn't be a problem; I'm
taking flying lessons in a Cessna 172, and it only has a 40" wide
cockpit. I'm jammed against the door, but its not uncomfortable.
I'm currently in Wichita, KS, and occasionally rent airline seats for
the ride back to my real home in Silicon Valley (San Jose, CA area). So,
any builders local to either area that have enough of the fuselage
finished for me to check out my fit in an XS that would let me sit in it
for a couple of minutes?
Thanks,
Richard Pottorff
(C) 408 747 7286
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
MessageThanks Ian, we had a great day out.
It was heartening to see so many mono wheels on the flight line.
Sometimes it seems as though we are a dying breed (Classics - not
Europas).
Carl & Dot Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gamble
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
Thanks Ian. A marvelous day with all those Europa's on view and such
fantastic weather. A great insentive for me to get on and finish my own
project. I shall press on.
Regards
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? |
Richard
depends on body/leg length ratio. Long legs are a bit of a problem.
Graham
Richard Pottorff wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm considerably larger than the FAA standard pilot - 6'3", 210 or so
> lbs. I'm seriously considering building a Europa XL, but after reading a
> CAF Foundation Europa Classic APR, I'm concerned there might not be
> enough leg and head room. Shoulder room shouldn't be a problem; I'm
> taking flying lessons in a Cessna 172, and it only has a 40" wide
> cockpit. I'm jammed against the door, but its not uncomfortable.
>
> I'm currently in Wichita, KS, and occasionally rent airline seats for
> the ride back to my real home in Silicon Valley (San Jose, CA area). So,
> any builders local to either area that have enough of the fuselage
> finished for me to check out my fit in an XS that would let me sit in it
> for a couple of minutes?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Richard Pottorff
> (C) 408 747 7286
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
| From: | "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net> |
Yes, thanks for a great afternoon, i thoroughly enjoyed meeting some of the Europa
community,
Steve Vestuti, G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | philip george <philipgeorge347(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
Thanks Ian.A good day at Old Sarum, good to see you all and the weather a b
onus too .
Phil & Belen George (G-EORJ)
From: carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.ukTo: europa-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re:
Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATEDate: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:23:50 +0100
Thanks Ian, we had a great day out.
It was heartening to see so many mono wheels on the flight line. Sometimes
it seems as though we are a dying breed (Classics - not Europas).
Carl & Dot Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gamble
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
Thanks Ian. A marvelous day with all those Europa's on view and such fantas
tic weather. A great insentive for me to get on and finish my own project.
I shall press on.
Regards
Mike
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_________________________________________________________________
Get free emoticon packs and customisation from Windows Live.
http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
Thanks also from me, Ian. Great company, venue, weather etc.
Willie Harrison
G-BZNY
On 16 Sep 2007, at 11:28, philip george wrote:
> Thanks Ian.A good day at Old Sarum, good to see you all and the
> weather a bonus too .
>
> Phil & Belen George (G-EORJ)
>
>
> From: carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:23:50 +0100
>
> Thanks Ian, we had a great day out.
>
> It was heartening to see so many mono wheels on the flight line.
> Sometimes it seems as though we are a dying breed (Classics - not
> Europas).
>
> Carl & Dot Pattinson
> G-LABS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Gamble
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
>
> Thanks Ian. A marvelous day with all those Europa's on view and
> such fantastic weather. A great insentive for me to get on and
> finish my own project. I shall press on.
> Regards
> Mike
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listp://
> forums.matronics.com
>
> Are you the Quizmaster? Play BrainBattle with a friend now!
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ===========================================================
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
On Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 12:57 AM, JonSmith wrote:
> Yesterday, as a result of this topic, when I was at my plane I
> deliberately "accidently" rigged the tailplanes with a pin disengaged,
> to see what happens to the tab and T-bar. I started with the pin
> resting on top of the T-bar. On mine the pin sits naturally on top of
> the bar towards the rear of it. On moving the elevator control the
> pin can very easily drop to beneath the bar and does so readily.
> BUT, what I did notice was that with the pin below the T-bar, when I
> moved the stick fully back the pin was able to drop a bit lower and
> lodge on top of that funny fuselage joggle/ moulding that sticks out
> from the fuselage vertically parallel to the T-bar slot, very
> effectively jamming the elevator almost fully up.[/b:57be851a4b]
> On mine it did it every time I tried it and was impossible to free
> from the cockpit.
Jon...thanks for taking the time to check this out (safely on the
ground). Coupled with Jos's hypothesis and the radar tracking data he
referenced in his posts of Sept. 11 and Sept. 14, this is beginning to
sound like a plausible scenario. I hope someone is forwarding it to the
AAIB.
Fred
A194
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
In addition to the radar tracking data I understand (don't know if it
is rumour or established fact) that the investigators have
interrogated the aircraft's gps and found evidence of much higher
speed than previously assumed. Can anyone shed light on this?
Willie H.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
For what it is worth, I attached a copy of Mod 58 which describes
handeling of Europa in flight with a fractured trim tab drive pin.
Ron parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Mycroft" <frankm(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Tailplane anti servo tab |
Re Jos's thoughts about tab drives
If one of the tab pins is not in the T-bar but is loose above it it will
be moved in the right direction when you pull back on the stick, but
will float free when you push the stick forward, and the reverse if it
is below the T-bar. When free it will have no effect on the tailplane
on that side, but the tab on the other side will still be doing its work
so you may be able to maintain control. But I would expect the 'free'
tab to try to emulate the Union Jack on the top of Edinburgh Castle so
the sooner it departs the tailplane the better. If it does that without
doing too much damage and without dislodging the T-bar from the other
tab I would think that the aeroplane would still be controllable, though
probably with difficulty.
There is a lot we don't know about this awful accident, but William is
reported as having said that the construction was a bit 'agricultural'
(he didn't build it), and its failure to get over a col in the Alps last
summer without four tries may have been a straw in the wind. Not all
Europas are created equal and anyone buying second hand should have a
very good look at what he is buying.
Frank Mycroft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
The aircraft had just been through its annual inspection at Bodmin (where
the aircraft had flown to). My understanding is that the post inspection
flight test may have taken place during the course of the return flight.
This would have included a dive to VNE (ie: 165 kts). If the recovery was
made badly the airframe could have become overstressed, resulting in
premature failure of one or both of the wings.
It is already public knowledge that one of the wing root pins was badly
installed resulting in the pin ripping out from the alloy mounting plates in
the wing root.
However this is only a theory and we may never know what caused this tragic
accident.
Carl Pattinson
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
>
>
> In addition to the radar tracking data I understand (don't know if it is
> rumour or established fact) that the investigators have interrogated the
> aircraft's gps and found evidence of much higher speed than previously
> assumed. Can anyone shed light on this?
>
> Willie H.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
.....or if the air was not smooth at vne???
On 16 Sep 2007, at 20:27, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
>
> The aircraft had just been through its annual inspection at Bodmin
> (where the aircraft had flown to). My understanding is that the
> post inspection flight test may have taken place during the course
> of the return flight.
>
> This would have included a dive to VNE (ie: 165 kts). If the
> recovery was made badly the airframe could have become
> overstressed, resulting in premature failure of one or both of the
> wings.
>
> I
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Pottorff" <Richard_Pottorff(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Europa Fit Test trip report |
Hi All,
Martin, who lives in Wichita bases his Europa in an Augusta Municipal
Airport hangar. He was good enough to let me sit in his plane this
afternoon. It is very nicely done, and I appreciated the opportunity. I
was looking forward to fitting into it.
Unfortunately, I didn't fit. I'm giving my measurements so others can
judge accordingly. I'm 6'3", 210 lbs. I have a 44 inch chest and 34 inch
inseam. I also have broad shoulders.
I needed 4 more inches of headroom, 4 more inches of leg room, and 4
more inches on each side of the cabin (so it would be symmetrical) of
shoulder room. There are semi-easy fixes for the head and leg room
issues, but not so easy for the shoulder room issues.
In summary, I like the plane, its specifications, and the quick
assembly/disassembly features, but I don't fit so I need to keep
looking.
Thanks again Martin.
CAVCU all,
Rick
Richard Pottorff
(C) 408 747 7286
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Venu Rao <venurao(at)mac.com> |
Are there any Europa Mono owners based in Texas?
I'm getting ready to buy one, and live in Austin, Tx.
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Tx
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Europa Fit Test trip report |
| From: | "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com> |
Rick:
I would not gainsay your actual sitting in the aircraft to determine fit; I did
the same thing at Oshkosh in 2003. However, I am 6' 4", 200 lbs., with a 44"
chest and while snug, the cockpit of the XS does fit me. (The fit is much like
my Honda S2000, but with less shoulder room.) I flew the factory demonstrator
a few times, and found it to be comfortable.
I do not have the Hi-Top mod, but do have the factory-made widening of the door
sill at the shoulder. I will probably use the bubble mod on the door glass.
I also plan to use one of the common mods to the center tunnel (I have a tri-gear)
to allow for more hip room.
Good luck with whatever plane you choose!
George Powell
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
| From: | "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com> |
I purchased an XS kit in 2003 and never got my Accelerated Stage I kit, due to
the collapse of EMIL. Later, I purchased the tailplanes already built from a
charity that got them from someone's estate. The torque tube TP4 is extremely
tight when I try to put the tailplanes on, and it is nearly impossible to get
the TP4 to seat properly in the TP6 sleeve already bonded into the tailplanes
(the TP12 pins will not seat into the TP13 bushes, due to the difficulty in getting
the torque tube in). If I can't get the tailplanes on in my shop, I certainly
won't be able to get them on the completed airplane.
It appears I have 2 choices: cut into the tailplanes and remove/reseat the TP6
sleeve, or build new tailplanes.
How difficult a task is it to unbond the TP6 bushing and reseat it, making sure
the TP4 fits properly and does not bind? If I go this route, what is the best
course to take?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
George Powell
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
On Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 09:14 PM, G&TPowell wrote:
>
> The torque tube TP4 is extremely tight when I try to put the
> tailplanes on, and it is nearly impossible to get the TP4 to seat
> properly in the TP6 sleeve already bonded into the tailplanes (the
> TP12 pins will not seat into the TP13 bushes, due to the difficulty in
> getting the torque tube in).
George,
I had the same extremely tight fit and found that a liberal coating of
vaseline on the tube did wonders.
Fred
A193
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
Hi! Fred
Vasiline is too viscus try very light oil.
Bob H G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 17 September 2007 05:55
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube bushing question
On Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 09:14 PM, G&TPowell wrote:
>
> The torque tube TP4 is extremely tight when I try to put the
> tailplanes on, and it is nearly impossible to get the TP4 to seat
> properly in the TP6 sleeve already bonded into the tailplanes (the
> TP12 pins will not seat into the TP13 bushes, due to the difficulty in
> getting the torque tube in).
George,
I had the same extremely tight fit and found that a liberal coating of
vaseline on the tube did wonders.
Fred
A193
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
George,
I take it that the TP5 sleeve (at the root end of the tailplane) slides
easily along the torque tube TP4 until the torque tube begins to enter TP6
(the sleeve with the pip pin hole).
As I see it, there is more than one scenario that could cause this.
1 The TP5 sleeve could be slightly out of alignment causing the torque
tube not to want to enter TP6. On forcing the alignment during rigging, TP5
would then bind on the torque tube and jam.
2 TP6 may be slightly out of alignment which would cause it to bind as
the torque tube enters it.
3 There may be a slight film of epoxy or similar on the inside of TP6
4 TP6 may have been shrunk. This can happen if grooves were ground
around its periphery to enable better bonding (the heat causes the sleeve to
shrink - Ask me how I know this !)
5 Any combination of the above.
If TP5 is tight all the way along TP4, either 3 or 4 above may apply ?? If
TP5 IS indeed tight all the way, will the tailplane fit on the wrong end
of TP4 torque tube ?
I think it is important to properly identify the problem before trying to
determine a fix.
Good luck
Kingsley in Oz.
> I purchased an XS kit in 2003 and never got my Accelerated Stage I kit,
> due to the collapse of EMIL. Later, I purchased the tailplanes already
> built from a charity that got them from someone's estate. The torque tube
> TP4 is extremely tight when I try to put the tailplanes on, and it is
> nearly impossible to get the TP4 to seat properly in the TP6 sleeve
> already bonded into the tailplanes (the TP12 pins will not seat into the
> TP13 bushes, due to the difficulty in getting the torque tube in). If I
> can't get the tailplanes on in my shop, I certainly won't be able to get
> them on the completed airplane.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
| From: | "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com> |
Thanks to all for the replies.
To answer the points raised, I did lubricate TP4, but with Teflon white lithium
grease, as I saw suggested on another thread. This helped some, but not much.
The TP4 does slide through TP5, but not very easily on one side.
I did check for epoxy contamination; I believe that both TP5 and TP6 are clean.
I opened up the bottom of the tailplane to check the integrity of the TP6 join,
and I found that a few blobs of epoxy had dripped between the joints of the
foam in the empty foam tube area between TP5 and TP6. I thought that these
might be binding the TP4 as it passed through. Removing these little blobs helped
a little.
With the bottom of the tailplane open, I can easily see the TP4 when it reaches
TP6. The serious binding begins when TP4 enters TP6.
The points raised by Kingsley seem possible, if not probable. As I did not construct
these tailplanes, I don't know how well they were made when the TP5 and
TP6 sleeves were set. It seems entirely possible that one or the other (or both)
are not in alignment. From visual inspection of the TP6 it does not appear
that grooves were cut in it to "key" the epoxy bond, so I don't think that
would have contributed to TP6 "shrinking".
I am glad I opened up the bottom to check this, as I will now roughen the surface
of TP6 with a dremel or drill when doing the layup described in Service Bulletin
006.
If I have to remove TP6 (and/or TP5) to reset them, what is the proper technique
to do so?
Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.
George Powell
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Torque Tube CLAMP Mod Prices:- |
I am pleased to announce the availability of prices of the parts to
effect this modification.
Should you be interested and haven't received pricing details today
please e-mail me direct with your request.
Best regards
Bob Harrison.
Robt.C.Harrison
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Martin Tuck <MJKTuck(at)cs.com> |
Hi Guys,
The 'Dive to Vne' as part of the UK annual inspection was mentioned again.
In my mind Vne is a maximum design speed for the aircraft, first
calculated and then demonstrated by the manufacturer (probably with some
margin) as part of the 'proof of design' test program. It is a test that
takes the airframe close to the outer edge of the envelope and I don't
think one to be undertaken lightly particularly by your average private
pilot.
The test has two possible outcomes and to me a positive result is not
worth the risk of the alternative.
Is there anyway the PFA can persuade the CAA to rethink the need for
this test as part of an annual check - or at least set some standards as
to who can perform the test, no passengers, entry and exit altitudes,
wearing of helmet/parachute in case the test proves negative, etc.
Maybe a requirement to dive to 90% of Vne would be a satisfactory
compromise?
Regards,
Martin Tuck
N152MT
Wichita, Kansas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rman <topglock(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Handling characteristics |
All,
There is a very good article in this months Kitplanes (page 19) in which
one of the test pilots gives the Europa very high ratings in the
handling category. Puts it right up there with some of the best. He
also credits Ivan Shaw as being one of the top designers in experimental
aviation...
Jeff - Baby Blue
329 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
Yes, the Vne test is one that a lot of people are uncomfortable with - but
Pete Clarke did test the aeroplane to Vne + 20 kt (at least)
Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
| From: | "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com> |
Hi George,
I have the same problem as I am repairing a crash damaged Europa. I have tailplanes
from a Classic Europa and a new XS fuselage and torque tube.
To cut a long story short, the XS torque tubes and bushes are ground to a tolerance
specified by a drawing whereas the Classic tubes and bushes were ground down
to match each other but not necessarily to a known size.
I need to do exactly what you are proposing which is to extract the old bushes
and replace them with new ones that came with my XS torque tube.
Neville Eyre was going to write a procedure for me a few months ago but he never
got round to doing this and I never got round to chasing him up. I suggest
we both contact him and ask nicely if he can write this procedure up. He tells
me it is quite easy to do although will require cutting into the lower surface
of the tailplanes.
Regards,
Phil
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Lamprey" <lamprey(at)infocom.co.ug> |
| Subject: | Dive to Vne in Kenya |
Greetings to all from Kenya,
Here the Kenya Civil Aviation Authority do not require a dive to VNE for
Certificate of Airworthiness (or Permit) renewal for any aircraft on the
private register. I dont do it for my Europa, or for the Cessna 206 I
fly. Not sure I'd ever want to, actually!
All best
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Handling characteristics |
Jeff,
You mention the article in this month's Kitplanes - is that October
or November - I seem to be reading the future more and more.............
Cheers, Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Handling characteristics |
Ferg,
That would be October. I haven't received the November issue, yet...
Jeff
Fergus Kyle wrote:
>
> Jeff,
> You mention the article in this month's Kitplanes - is that October
> or November - I seem to be reading the future more and more.............
> Cheers, Ferg
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Dynon AOA homemade 1 of 3 |
| From: | <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Figured this may be of interest, it is a paste from Aeroelectric
Newsgroup.
Will try and attach pics in 2 more.
Ron Parigoris
Date: Monday, September 17 2007 11:51 pm
From: Tim Shankland <tshankland(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Avionics-List: AOA for your Dynon
Full Headers: Display Headers
Attachments: Part 1 noname (TEXT/PLAIN 7bit 1207 bytes) Hide
Part 2 101_1466small.jpg (IMAGE/JPEG base64 338548 bytes) View
Part 3 101_1467small.jpg (IMAGE/JPEG base64 444246 bytes) View
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For all of you who have or are thinking of buying the Dynon and think
you would like to be able to use the angle of attack indicator it
doesn't have to cost another $200. I bought my Dynon for the attitude
display and everything else was gravy. It wasn't until after I was
flying with it I even realized that it have the AOA option. Being a
builder oh and cheap too, I though $200 was a lot to pay so I looked
into Dynon's and other AOA devices. Well anyway I made my own probe,
cost nothing time about an hour or so and I can report it works great.
Attached are a couple of pictures of the installation. The trick to ease
of fabrication is that I used copper tubing, easier to solder together.
The pitot tube is at a right angle to the support tube and the
additional tube is angled 45 degrees down. To hold it I made a slot in
the circular piece of 1/8 inch aluminum, I used my mill but it can be
done with a drill and careful file work.. Mine as a snug fit to which I
added epoxy. By the way don't start on how that copper is going to
corrode with the aluminum I keep my plane inside and dry and I haven't
seen any at other interfaces in the past year.
Tim Shankland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
Vne is actually 90% of the true max rated speed Vdive.
Pete Clarke actually tested Vd as required. It is simply a
convention that us unwashed masses do not cross the 90% Vd line
Too many flight instructors and pilot texts over simplify the
structural issues
If your plane is built to spec, there should be no issue in flying at
Vne in calm air. Why the PFA wants you to do this annually escapes
me, but it is safe.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135046#135046
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> |
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Hi Remi
My mono is far away and
cannot verify how many
fairings I have. I can remember
four of them /wing and just one
around tail wheel. That means 9 pcs.
Just wonder where are two extra.
Around main wheel? I have not...why?
How did you install the fairing around the
outrigger mechanism? I did as per
instructions + soft glued it to the
down surface of the wing just to keep
it clean and nice. Just wonder how
often I should remove it to make
some service and spring check of
the mechanism. I would like to hope
they last forever w/o service...
Paul:
about tailwheel fairing; I have it and
it is painted dark /black cherry (of course!).
After every single take-off from any gravel
strip I have to repaint it. The fairing material
itself is also very brittle - so it will not last
very many operations in unprepared strips.
If asphalt is your runway - It is OK.
I am going to stiffen it somehow structurally
and also cover it by 3M damagetape to protect
the painting itself. I do like how it looks.
Raimo
===
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417, DK Endealave 2007 visitor #2.
----- Original Message -----
From: Remi Guerner
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:51 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
Hi Paul,
Yes I have the whole eleven fairings fitted. That includes the tail
wheel fairing. I agree this is disappointing given the up to nine knots
gain claimed by the factory. However all those fairings enhance the look
of the airplane, protect the outrigger mechanism and prevent mud
projections from the little wheels... and removed 1.2 kg from my useful
load.
Remi
Only a couple of knots gain? Disappointing to say the least. Did you
have
the tail wheel fairing fitted ? I haven't fitted mine and I am
wondering if
it is worth the effort.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Remi
Guerner
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:24 PM
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some
speed
measurements today. The results are as follows:
Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C,
that is
density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is approx 60
percent
power, TAS 133 kts.
Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
power, TAS 130 kts.
With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full
throttle,
5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight:
520kg.
All 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed using
the
GPS 3 segments method.
Best regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "karelvranken" <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com> |
William and all,
Vne has not directly a relation with pulling g's. You never make high speed
in rough air. To catch up speed you have to dive. This doesn't mean
vertical. You do it smoothly while observing your RPM and intake manifold
pressure. Don't overboost your engine. The Europa is as fast as you want
since the big problem was solved with the tie bar. The big problem was the
displacement of the lift point forwards with higher speeds and caused the
wings to tend forwards and bend the spars. When I purchased the Europa in
1999 the tie bar was standard and I was happy with this solution. During the
test period a friend of mine was filming my passages over the airfield of
Sedan in France. In one of the low passes I observed an IAS of 180 knots
without any difference of those below Vne. My conclusion is: don't be afraid
of Vne, accept it.
Best regards,
Karel Vranken
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
> It's presumably not vne itself which creates the main stress, but the
> combination of g pulled by the pilot (can be airspeed-dependent if the
> pilot is not super careful) and g generated by rough air (always
> dependent on airspeed). Can't help wondering what g loadings the crash
> aircraft experienced that day. Has anyone got any info on the rumour
> about the GPS having been interrogated during the investigation?
>
> I share the doubts expressed about the real value of repeating the vne
> test every year. My own Permit expires every January which means that I
> am typically looking for a calm day in the middle of Winter (note for US
> cousins - Winter in the UK usually means crappy weather, low cloud, etc)
> with the usual anxiety about the expiry deadline looming. Maybe some folk
> are tempted to do the test in rougher weather than they should. Maybe
> some are also tempted to do the test from a lower cloudbase than they
> should, leaving less height to recover and therefore the need to pull
> more g...? It makes you wonder.
>
> Willie Harrison
> G-BZNY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
Hi Raimo,
I confirm the speed kit supplied by the factory includes eleven
fairings: 2 for the outrigger mechanism, 4 for the flap hinges, 2 for
the flap cross tube pivots, 2 for the outrigger wheels and one for the
tailwheel. I managed to install the outrigger mechanism fairing without
gluing it as I wanted to be able to remove it easily for inspection. The
fairings are just bolted at the specified attach points plus using one
screw from the aileron bellcranck inspection plate. I had to reshape the
fairing flanges using a heat gun to get an acceptable fit.
Remi
My mono is far away and
cannot verify how many
fairings I have. I can remember
four of them /wing and just one
around tail wheel. That means 9 pcs.
Just wonder where are two extra.
Around main wheel? I have not...why?
How did you install the fairing around the
outrigger mechanism? I did as per
instructions + soft glued it to the
down surface of the wing just to keep
it clean and nice. Just wonder how
often I should remove it to make
some service and spring check of
the mechanism. I would like to hope
they last forever w/o service...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September |
Hi all,
just a short reminder that this coming Saturday is the annual
Laddingford Fly-in.
At the moment the forecasts for the weekend look really good ( at least
down this way).
In years gone by we usually have a really good turnout, with up to 20
Europas in attendance plus many other aircraft. We have already got a
head start this year with 5 Europas in the hangar at the present time.
We will be using the safety com frequency 135.475 with circuits at
1000ft to the north if we are using the 750 mtr. 11 / 29 runway (to the
east in the unlikey event of using the 450 mtr. 03 / 21). It is likely
to be busy so keep a good lookout. The runway at around the midpoint has
become a little bit bumpy with the mostly dry weather that we have had
down this way throughout the summer, so keep your eye on that, but the
aerodrome is manicured to its usual impecable standard.
We will have a barbecue for everybody who comes (small donation asked
for, that goes to the air ambulance after costs).
We shall be giving pleasure flights to anybody that we can force in to
the cockpits, so if you would like to help out with that then let us
know on the day.
Here's looking forward to another excellent day,
Dave Watts
Europa Classic G-BXDY
Laddingford Aerodrome Manager
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
"<>
To check that it is safe! DuncanMcf "
Duncan, I admire their interest, but it DOES incur two thoughts:
[1] If they are interested, whu don't THEY do it? I would be prepared to
accept an apology if it splats all over Cheshire, and
[2] What is the result of discovering it isn't safe? Back to the drawing
board?
Wouldn't that reduce medical practice to striking the temple with bigger
hammers to establish good bone structure?
Cheers, Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | UVTReith(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dynon AOA homemade 1 of 3 |
Hi Tim Shankland and Ron Parigoris,
This is a great story with the AOA device for the Dynon, but I cannot open
pictures or so.
Can you send some more info again?
I'm using the EFIS-D100 and have the Europa stall warner tubingsystem
installed.
I thought, when I connect the stall warner tube also with the AOA port and
the Pitot tube also with the Pitot port of the instrument, that this would be
ok. In this case I have both - a superb display in my EFIS and a sound
machine above my head.
Do I missed something? Is my solution not working?
Some Input from experts are warmly welcome.
Best Regards,
Bruno Reith
monowheel XS, smart-Brabus + Warp Drive Prop
Nearly ready, instrument + Com/Nav installation and final check is on the
list now.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> |
2 was going to be my question...
High and with a parachute I think... or is there some other way of testing
this like the static testing on someone's website (can't remember where)
with the bags of cement on the upturned wings.
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:52
Subject: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
"<>
To check that it is safe! DuncanMcf "
Duncan, I admire their interest, but it DOES incur two thoughts:
[1] If they are interested, whu don't THEY do it? I would be prepared to
accept an apology if it splats all over Cheshire, and
[2] What is the result of discovering it isn't safe? Back to the drawing
board?
Wouldn't that reduce medical practice to striking the temple with bigger
hammers to establish good bone structure?
Cheers, Ferg
11:53
11:53
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dynon AOA homemade 1 of 3 |
| From: | <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Hi Bruno
"This is a great story with the AOA device for the Dynon, but I cannot
open pictures or so. Can you send some more info again?"
My Library ISP bounced the pics because they are too large. I tried to
send through my Hotmail account, and bounced because I am not signed up to
Europa Newsgroup.
I sent to you direct from Hotmail. If you can please try and post them to
this thread for others.
Stall warner goes lower pressure near stall, where AOA input for Dynon is
looking for higher pressure near stall.
Don't know what you are going to get with Dynon if you input reverse what
is called for.
Ron P.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | UVTReith(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Europa for heavy boys |
Hi Friends,
There is somebody who would like to buy a Tri-Gear kit but he is a really
imposant boy.
145 kg x 183 cm
I guess, in this case some Mod's are necessary:
Mod 64: High Top - do I need that with 183 cm ?!?
Mod 24: Modification to increase seat width - this is especially good for
more "bum space"
Mod 67: Cockpit width increase (now standard with new kits)
Bubble typ door windows ? They do not like really nice, do they?
I think, that is all we could do or have I missed something.
Maybe some of you have some more ideas?
Best Regards,
Bruno
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dynon AOA homemade 1 of 3 |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Ron, Bruno
Well, i tried it today finally, that is using the stall warner for the Dynon AoA
warner. It does not work. I was hoping that the Dynon would register difference
without polarity. It does notice polarity. Ron you were right about it. I
have the original Dynon tube, will install that later.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com> |
What is bizarre about the PFA's vne dive requirement is that if the small print
on the the permit renewal form is true, the permit renewal will fail to be accepted
if you admit to either exceeding vne or failing to reach vne. Not a lot
of margin for error there. I think that says something about the PFA's confidence
in our piloting skills and the accuracy of our speedos.
I wonder how many Europa operators know what the position error of their ASI is
at 150+ knots?
Which begs the question, why isn't vne specified as a RAS rather than an IAS because
the IAS could be way out due to instrument and position errors? I think
this question may have been asked before, sorry for the repeat.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135315#135315
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
There are at least 3 types of limits.
Calculated limits, Prooven limits and PFA limits.
The calculated limits, which include prooven and tested safety margins, lead to
testing, and if nothing breaks, flutters or otherwise falls apart, we have prooven
limits. Then the PFA comes along and add their own safety factor on the
calculated and prooven limits. I have not been able to find any justification
for that PFA safety factor, other then the general fit-all: Amateur builders make
mistakes. How on earth the PFA can stick a number to these mistakes i do not
understand.
All in all: Diving to PFA-Vne should be absolutely safe, it's some 20 knots slower
then the calculated an prooven Vne. The Pfa knows it's safe, because they
did the bad builder calculation!
Is the same bad-builder safety margin enforced on glasairs and vans and the like?
Are they to do that Vne dive, while their Vne is probably for real?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> |
I like Ferg's analogy to destructive skull testing!
Despite being an engineer in former life, I still don't get it.
Do we require testing of homebuilt sailboats to hull speed
annually? How many green pilots will die from misadventure near
Vd relative to the number weak wings destructively detected?
(I know I have a thick skull, bring a bigger hammer Ferg)
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135336#135336
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | UVTReith(at)aol.com |
Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the static
wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside down). On the
tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other side and swap that
then.
This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
Bruno
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tony.bale(at)virgin.net" <tony.bale(at)virgin.net> |
All the correspondence on "dive to vne" has been quite interesting. But
having done the last two annual flight tests on our XS mono including the
vne test, the term dive suggests (to me anyway) everything firewalled and
point the nose at terra firma.
In reality it is nothing like that, I accept most - including our aircraft,
have over reading ASI's (can't remember what the flight test results were)
but with 5400 rpm and probably 25"/26" map the actual nose down attitude is
not very steep at all. It goes without saying this is commenced at high
level on a smooth day, acceleration is strictly limited, the controls are
only moved very smoothly and only to restriced amounts (never need much
deflection anyway !). As an indicator of the scale of the test, our
straight and level speed at full throttle and 5400 rpm is the thick end of
150 knots. (and I bet the turbo boys can see mid to high 150's if they try).
As a point of comparison, with Airmaster cruise setting, and 25" map,
straight and level at circa 2000 ft we indicate 128 Kts +/- (just below the
yellow). Having flown in formation with an Arrow and RV9, our ASI's at this
cruise all read within one or two knots of each other.
My two penny worth anyway.
ATB
Tony.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: rampil ira.rampil(at)gmail.com
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:15:11 -0700
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Dive to Vne
I like Ferg's analogy to destructive skull testing!
Despite being an engineer in former life, I still don't get it.
Do we require testing of homebuilt sailboats to hull speed
annually? How many green pilots will die from misadventure near
Vd relative to the number weak wings destructively detected?
(I know I have a thick skull, bring a bigger hammer Ferg)
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135336#135336
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft
Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> |
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
UVTReith(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 16:35
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the static
wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside down). On the
tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other side and swap
that then.
This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
Bruno
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Europa-List
11:53
11:53
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> |
Forgive my ignorance but why 1350kg=85?
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
UVTReith(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 16:35
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the
static
wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside down). On
the
tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other side and swap
that then.
This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
Bruno
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/
Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
9/18/2007
11:53
9/18/2007
11:53
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Grass" <M.Grass(at)comcast.net> |
William,
If you do the math:
2 times 1350Kg = 2700 kg or around 5940pounds
This would be about the designed max +3.8 G as specified by Europa plus
about a 15 % safety factor
Just guessing
Michael Grass
----- Original Message -----
From: William Daniell
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:15 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Forgive my ignorance but why 1350kg=85?
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
UVTReith(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 16:35
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the
static wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside
down). On the tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other
side and swap that then.
This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
Bruno
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
9/18/2007 11:53
9/18/2007 11:53
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September |
David,
Thank you for the timely reminder re Laddingford. I hope to be there
with G-SMDH plus one passenger.
Regards
Steve Pitt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | UVTReith(at)aol.com |
Michael,
That's correct.
Herzliche Gr=FC=DFe aus Deutschland,
Bruno
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hans J. Danielsen" <hansjd(at)online.no> |
| Subject: | Re: Europa for heavy boys |
A good answer to this problem is to modify the human body itself!
Hans # 334. (Not flying do to loss of medical)
----- Original Message -----
From: UVTReith(at)aol.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa for heavy boys
Hi Friends,
There is somebody who would like to buy a Tri-Gear kit but he is a
really imposant boy.
145 kg x 183 cm
I guess, in this case some Mod's are necessary:
Mod 64: High Top - do I need that with 183 cm ?!?
Mod 24: Modification to increase seat width - this is especially good
for more "bum space"
Mod 67: Cockpit width increase (now standard with new kits)
Bubble typ door windows ? They do not like really nice, do they?
I think, that is all we could do or have I missed something.
Maybe some of you have some more ideas?
Best Regards,
Bruno
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)oh.rr.com> |
I don't understand this one. How does the PFA know to what speed you did the test?
If there's no enforcement mechanism, this is ludicrous. I cannot think
of any gov't requirement here where we must certify the unprovable and the authorities
are perfectly OK with that.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135477#135477
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> |
Ah thanks now I get it next question
It seems at first sight a sensible thing to do ' rather than trying to
do it
in flight. I would be interested to know what everyone else thinks. Of
course there is always the possibility that your pride and joy breaks.
But
probably better this than it breaks in the air=85
Is there an instruction manual on how to go about it?
Can one simulate the dive to Vne? ' I would assume not but perhaps
some
parts of it can be simulated in separate operations as it were??
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Grass
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 23:06
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
William,
If you do the math:
2 times 1350Kg = 2700 kg or around 5940pounds
This would be about the designed max +3.8 G as specified by Europa plus
about a 15 % safety factor
Just guessing
Michael Grass
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:wdaniell(at)etb.net.co"William Daniell
"mailto:europa-list(at)matronics.com"europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:15 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Forgive my ignorance but why 1350kg=85?
Will
From: HYPERLINK
"mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com"owner-europa-list-server@m
atr
onics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
HYPERLINK "mailto:UVTReith(at)aol.com"UVTReith(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 16:35
"mailto:europa-list(at)matronics.com"europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the
static
wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside down). On
the
tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other side and swap
that then.
This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
Bruno
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
9/18/2007 11:53
9/18/2007 11:53
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/
Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
9/18/2007
11:53
9/18/2007
11:53
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
There is a significant risk of invisible damage imho so I would not want
to test to more than 3 G. Check for any permanent deflection unloaded
then retest and check again that deflections remain the same.
Graham
William Daniell wrote:
> Ah thanks now I get it next question
>
> It seems at first sight a sensible thing to do rather than trying to
> do it in flight. I would be interested to know what everyone else
> thinks. Of course there is always the possibility that your pride and
> joy breaks. But probably better this than it breaks in the air
>
>
>
> Is there an instruction manual on how to go about it?
>
>
>
> Can one simulate the dive to Vne? I would assume not but perhaps some
> parts of it can be simulated in separate operations as it were??
>
>
>
> Will
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael Grass
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 23:06
> *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> If you do the math:
>
> 2 times 1350Kg = 2700 kg or around 5940pounds
>
>
>
> This would be about the designed max +3.8 G as specified by Europa plus
> about a 15 % safety factor
>
>
>
>
>
> Just guessing
>
>
>
> Michael Grass
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* William Daniell
>
> *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:15 PM
>
> *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> Forgive my ignorance but why 1350kg?
>
> Will
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *UVTReith(at)aol.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 16:35
> *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the
> static wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside
> down). On the tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other
> side and swap that then.
>
>
>
> This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List*
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM> |
Vne is not always an airframe limitation. Under FAR 23.33 (U.S. regs),
the propeller speed should remain within 110% of the max rpm at Vne. I
know that the Diamond Katana aircraft had such a Vne. It had nothing to
do with the airframe. Also, experimentals do not have to comply with
Part 23, and for that matter, I don't think there is any requirement to
even have a Vne.
Even in the case of airframe-limited Vne, it may not be a load factor
limit. The 3.8G someone else mentioned is for Va. Vne could be, for
example, the speed at which the windows blow out; or the antennas get
ripped out. It may have little to do with wing loading.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jim Brown" <acrojim(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Remi
I have the XS Monowheel with the 914 and Airmaster installed.
Your results are about the same as what we got when I also installed the
speed kit mod. I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs.
Several of us here in Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed
the speed kits looking for 10 kts advantage. However it was not to
be.When we tried to get answers from the old management team as to why
this large difference in speed, we sure got the Run Around.....
I know in some of the advertisements the old Europa Co. was (is)
advertising 200 MPH cruise speeds for the XS series. I don't know anyone
who is getting that kind of speed. Once again put it down to
manufactures advertising hype.
Jim Brown
N398JB
----- Original Message -----
From: Remi Guerner
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some
speed measurements today. The results are as follows:
Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C,
that is density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is
approx 60 percent power, TAS 133 kts.
Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
power, TAS 130 kts.
With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full
throttle, 5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight:
520kg. All 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed
using the GPS 3 segments method.
Best regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Except maybe Dennis Vories :
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/editorial/articledetail.lasso?-token.key=5704&-token.src=column&-nothing
who claims even faster speeds up high (per a now deleted kitplanes radio
interview) with his intercooled 914 w/whirlwind
Cheers,
Pete
A239 - still apile of parts
On 9/20/07, jim Brown wrote:
>
> Remi
>
> I have the XS Monowheel with the 914 and Airmaster installed.
>
> Your results are about the same as what we got when I also installed the
> speed kit mod. I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs.
> Several of us here in Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed the
> speed kits looking for 10 kts advantage. However it was not to be.When we
> tried to get answers from the old management team as to why this large
> difference in speed, we sure got the Run Around.....
>
>
> I know in some of the advertisements the old Europa Co. was (is)
> advertising 200 MPH cruise speeds for the XS series. I don't know anyone who
> is getting that kind of speed. Once again put it down to manufactures
> advertising hype.
>
> Jim Brown
> N398JB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Remi Guerner
> *To:* Europa-List Digest Server
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:23 PM
> *Subject:* Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
>
>
> The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some speed
> measurements today. The results are as follows:
>
> Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C, that is
> density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is approx 60 percent
> power, TAS 133 kts.
>
> Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
> power, TAS 130 kts.
>
>
> With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full throttle,
> 5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
>
> Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
>
>
> Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
>
>
> All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight: 520kg. All
> 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed using the GPS 3
> segments method.
>
> Best regards
>
>
> Remi Guerner
>
> F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> |
| Subject: | Re: Europa for heavy boys |
Exactly!
I was flying w my friend 13,5 hrs
to the Endelave Fly-inn in Denmark
and back to Finland during 3+ days.
He is a big boy and his height
is 195 cm /77". My Europa is profiled
for me (175 cm) and P2 seat for my wife (172 cm).
We took the seat away and this brave man sat
whole trip on the on the plywood sheat only you know.
His rear parts and back were quite stressed
and he promised me to have some
surgical operations like shorten his spine
before next summer=B4s scheduled adventures.
This is only to get some leather and temper
foam under.
Must be wonderful to sit on Europa=B4s P2 seat!
Wishes, Raimo
========
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417,
The Experimental of The Year in Finland
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans J. Danielsen
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa for heavy boys
A good answer to this problem is to modify the human body itself!
Hans # 334. (Not flying do to loss of medical)
----- Original Message -----
From: UVTReith(at)aol.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa for heavy boys
Hi Friends,
There is somebody who would like to buy a Tri-Gear kit but he is a
really imposant boy.
145 kg x 183 cm
I guess, in this case some Mod's are necessary:
Mod 64: High Top - do I need that with 183 cm ?!?
Mod 24: Modification to increase seat width - this is especially
good for more "bum space"
Mod 67: Cockpit width increase (now standard with new kits)
Bubble typ door windows ? They do not like really nice, do they?
I think, that is all we could do or have I missed something.
Maybe some of you have some more ideas?
Best Regards,
Bruno
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
> I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs. Several of us
> here in Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed the speed
> kits-looking for 10 kts advantage.-However it was not to be.
Though visually attractive, I've had my doubts about the mono speed kit.
For example, the flap hinge fairings have a large frontal area and are
open at the rear, neither characteristic will IMHO reduce drag. In my
spare moments I'm working on very narrow FG wrapped balsa skirts which
slip over the hinge plates and fit w/ minor FG moldings at both the
pivot point and wing surface intersection. I'll post pixs when I have
something fitted.
I suspect the biggest source of drag not addressed by the mono SK is
that of the main wheel and wheel well, something which Alex Bowman has
a handle on and shown on pixs posted at:
www.europaowners.orgmodules.php?set_albumName=album149&id=DSCN0096&op
=mo
dload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
The exposed outrigger wheel is a source of drag which the speed kit
fairing doesn't address. Here are some pixs of a fully enclosed
outrigger which has a spring loaded afterbody which hinges up when
flaps are deployed; airstream on mini-tailplane locks it back down when
flaps are raised...this is a prototype not yet tested in flight...(hey,
we're building experimental aircraft, are we not?)
Fred
A194
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the
engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they
add no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator
opening and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine
and is rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy
back there. We carefully installed the Kim Prout main gear fairings and
saw ZERO improvement in cruise speed, which leads me to believe that the
lower cowl exit is so turbulent that fairing in the main gear (or even
retracting it) has little value. A magazine flight test on the Europa
motor glider reported that there was no improvement in glide performance
gear up vs gear down, which further supports my suspicion on the cowl
problems.
regards,
Terry Seaver
N135TD, XS mono-wheel with 912S.
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs. Several
of us here in Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed the
speed kits looking for 10 kts advantage. However it was not to be.
Though visually attractive, I've had my doubts about the mono speed kit.
For example, the flap hinge fairings have a large frontal area and are
open at the rear, neither characteristic will IMHO reduce drag. In my
spare moments I'm working on very narrow FG wrapped balsa skirts which
slip over the hinge plates and fit w/ minor FG moldings at both the
pivot point and wing surface intersection. I'll post pixs when I have
something fitted.
I suspect the biggest source of drag not addressed by the mono SK is
that of the main wheel and wheel well, something which Alex Bowman has a
handle on and shown on pixs posted at:
www.europaowners.orgmodules.php?set_albumName=album149&id=DSCN0096&op
=mo
dload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
The exposed outrigger wheel is a source of drag which the speed kit
fairing doesn't address. Here are some pixs of a fully enclosed
outrigger which has a spring loaded afterbody which hinges up when flaps
are deployed; airstream on mini-tailplane locks it back down when flaps
are raised...this is a prototype not yet tested in flight...(hey, we're
building experimental aircraft, are we not?)
Fred
A194
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> |
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Thanks Remi
I just forgot those fairings for
flap cross tube pivots - I have them.
I have had some thoughts to make
fore and aft fairings for mainwheel
but probably they would be useful
only for visual appearance.
The fairings are just bolted at the specified attach points plus using
one screw from the aileron bellcranck inspection plate.
Good idea.
Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: Remi Guerner
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
Hi Raimo,
I confirm the speed kit supplied by the factory includes eleven
fairings: 2 for the outrigger mechanism, 4 for the flap hinges, 2 for
the flap cross tube pivots, 2 for the outrigger wheels and one for the
tailwheel. I managed to install the outrigger mechanism fairing without
gluing it as I wanted to be able to remove it easily for inspection. The
fairings are just bolted at the specified attach points plus using one
screw from the aileron bellcranck inspection plate. I had to reshape the
fairing flanges using a heat gun to get an acceptable fit.
Remi
My mono is far away and
cannot verify how many
fairings I have. I can remember
four of them /wing and just one
around tail wheel. That means 9 pcs.
Just wonder where are two extra.
Around main wheel? I have not...why?
How did you install the fairing around the
outrigger mechanism? I did as per
instructions + soft glued it to the
down surface of the wing just to keep
it clean and nice. Just wonder how
often I should remove it to make
some service and spring check of
the mechanism. I would like to hope
they last forever w/o service...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
Terry,
I totally agree w/ your comments on the standard cowl...Did you check
out Bowman's fairing? Alex's cowl of course removes the cooling air
exit from factoring in to potential drag reduction of a main gear
fairing.
Fred
On Thursday, September 20, 2007, at 02:39 PM, Terry Seaver (terrys)
wrote:
> I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in
> the engine cowl area.- Closing off the gills would be the first thing
> (they add no value to the plane).- Second would be to clean up the
> radiator opening and following duct, it is too large for the size of
> this engine and is-rather messy.- Then clean up the radiator exit, it
> is very messy back there.- We carefully installed the Kim Prout main
> gear fairings and saw ZERO improvement in cruise speed, which leads me
> to believe that the lower cowl exit is so turbulent that fairing in
> the main gear (or even retracting it) has little value.--A
> magazine-flight test on the Europa motor glider reported that there
> was no improvement in glide performance gear up vs gear down, which
> further supports my suspicion on the cowl problems.
> -
> regards,
> Terry Seaver
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk> |
or flutter?
On 20 Sep 2007, at 19:16, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
>
> Vne is not always an airframe limitation. Under FAR 23.33 (U.S. regs),
> the propeller speed should remain within 110% of the max rpm at Vne. I
> know that the Diamond Katana aircraft had such a Vne. It had
> nothing to
> do with the airframe. Also, experimentals do not have to comply with
> Part 23, and for that matter, I don't think there is any
> requirement to
> even have a Vne.
>
> Even in the case of airframe-limited Vne, it may not be a load factor
> limit. The 3.8G someone else mentioned is for Va. Vne could be, for
> example, the speed at which the windows blow out; or the antennas get
> ripped out. It may have little to do with wing loading.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Terry
I suspect you are right. If an O-360 Lycoming can be cooled with an
inlet area of only 14 square inches why does it take the same (aprox) to
cool a Rotax?
Graham
Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:
> I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the
> engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they
> add no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator
> opening and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine
> and is rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy
> back there. We carefully installed the Kim Prout main gear fairings and
> saw ZERO improvement in cruise speed, which leads me to believe that the
> lower cowl exit is so turbulent that fairing in the main gear (or even
> retracting it) has little value. A magazine flight test on the Europa
> motor glider reported that there was no improvement in glide performance
> gear up vs gear down, which further supports my suspicion on the cowl
> problems.
>
> regards,
> Terry Seaver
> N135TD, XS mono-wheel with 912S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Pottorff" <Richard_Pottorff(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Europa for heavy boys |
I'm not quite so heavy: 100 Kilos, but even taller: 190.5 cm.
So far, I'm hoping to fit in a Europa under construction on Reno.
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
You are correct that a major source of drag is the monowheel. When I flew
the prototype in '95 (?), which had separate flap and wheel levers, I set up
a stable trimmed cruise at 100 kt, and popped the mainwheel out. No change.
Part of the reason I'm hoping my taildragger conversion may be a little
quicker. My goal is 200 mph @ 8000 ft. Well, you have to aim high....
The taildragger conversion - at least the attach structure (it uses tri gear
main legs) is almost complete. All the internal bulkheads have been laid up,
all that remains to do is a 10 ply carbon strap laid into the skin
underneath (I'm awaiting for the loan of some vac bagging gear to do that) -
I'll post some pix when it's done.
Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Europa for heavy boys |
Well I'm 183cm, and had no problems with the height in a friends 90%
complete kit, Mind you I only weigh about 75-80 kg, I am about 100 hours
into my kit, One thing I am considering is narrowing the
tunnel about 2 to 3 inches, mostly for the leg width so you have room to
move about a bit on the
longer flights
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of UVTReith(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 20 September 2007 2:41 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Europa for heavy boys
Hi Friends,
There is somebody who would like to buy a Tri-Gear kit but he is a really
imposant boy.
145 kg x 183 cm
I guess, in this case some Mod's are necessary:
Mod 64: High Top - do I need that with 183 cm ?!?
Mod 24: Modification to increase seat width - this is especially good for
more "bum space"
Mod 67: Cockpit width increase (now standard with new kits)
Bubble typ door windows ? They do not like really nice, do they?
I think, that is all we could do or have I missed something.
Maybe some of you have some more ideas?
Best Regards,
Bruno
12:07 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Go fast article for newsletter |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Monowheel Speed Kit |
| From: | "Justin Kennedy" <justin(at)systemwise.co.uk> |
Hi All
We made our own speed kit consisting only of outrigger fairings and wing
root fairings. While both are unlike the normal ones we felt the wing
fairings made the biggest difference. We have no other speed kit
elements, even the tail wheel is naked.
I designed our wing fairings based on the extensive work done in this
area in WW2. This is why they are not unlike the Spitfire ones. They are
also less than the optimum shape as the fuselage still has to fit in the
trailer.
My monowheel G-ZTED cruises at 130 kts at 1370 pounds at 1000ft on a
standard day. G-ZTED is a Classic with 912S and an Airmaster Prop. &
Warp Drive blades.
William Mills and I had taken flash mouldings of my wing fairings just
before his accident. While William had wanted a set for his aircraft we
had intended to see if there was enough interest and arrange for someone
to make more of them.
The maximum speed is more about drag and while I don't have a 914 it is
perhaps worth a mention that when I set it up for a cruise decent of 250
ft a minute, put the propeller to manual and coursen it up to produce
4800 RPM I get 155 kts which is a whisker off 180mph (test done with two
opposite direction runs on the GPS). This is a reasonable test because
you are beginning to hit a wall of drag. It can go a bit faster in this
mode as there is a little spare boost below 4000ft but I am reluctant to
fly without a margin below Vne.
I also flew with Ivan Shaw in formation. He was on our starboard wing in
another Europa. When we throttled right back for the decent he commented
that he was having to use a significant amount of throttle to keep up.
I know this is all not very scientific but it does appear that, with no
speed kit, our fairings make us slippier than most.
I am happy to do more scientific tests if someone can say what. I am
still trying to get 73 and the first stage of 74 signed off. I have done
the work but the inspector is indisposed.
Safe flying to all.
Justin
Justin Kennedy G-ZTED Classic Monowheel 912S Airmaster with Warp Drive
blades
Flying Story
I am having loads of fun with mine.
The Europa is a great aircraft and it keeps coming up with extra
thrills. I was flying from Scotland to Belfast City in the Spring.
Flying South over the Mull of Kintyre with tail wind of 55kts at 8000ft.
I started out across the Irish Sea with 140 kts indicated, corrected for
height that would be around 150kt plus. The 55kt tail wind made the GPS
ground speed 206 kts. I calculated that I had better start my cruise
decent if I was to enter Belfast Loch at 2000ft. I had to throttle back
a bit but the GPS ground speed gave 215kts for the first part of the
decent which is a whopping 247 mph. Does that count as a dive to Vne?
Not quite. It is alright for those used to it but as a lowly PPL the map
features on the East coast of Ireland did not hang around long enough to
be identified. I nearly missed Belfast City altogether. I had to climb
again to slow up and had to side slip on the approach as I had a lot of
height to lose. All very untidy but within limits. The wind was 25kts
about 10 degrees off the runway which I find the Europa quite likes and
I landed taxied in taildragger style taking care not to get blown over
(propellers costing what they do). I turned into wind rolled to halt and
shut down.
Wow!
The radar controller met me on the stairs up to flight briefing. He said
they had watched me all the way down the coast and were more than
surprised at the tiny little white dot that appeared on the approach.
All on 18 litres an hour I told him.
I can't get enough of this stuff.
JK
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax 912UL Deals - 3 New Ones Up On EBay |
| From: | "danbish" <danbish(at)norwalktucson.com> |
If anyone's interested, I saw 3 Rotax 912's up on EBay this morning. They're in
Boise, Idaho, USA.
Here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rotax-engine-80hp-912-UL-3_W0QQitemZ260162151265QQihZ016QQcategoryZ26437QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
If the link doesn't work for some reason, just go to ebay and do a search for auction
number 260162151265 and look at the link for his other auctions. He's got
them on auction but with a Buy It Now price of $11,800 USD.
Happy bidding,
Dan
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi I've and all,
Love the flying story!
I've had my happy misunderstandings too: Between Kokkola and Ivalo, my home base
was a large area with very low cloud, impossible to fly through. But over the
top looked quit possible, FL110 as max. reported.
So i left Kokkola and kept climbing, a bit longer on the turbo as usual. It brought
me through FL95, the top of the TMA in less then 5 minutes, so i reported
area out to Kokkola tower. He told me wrong, i was only 5 NM from the tower,
and his TMA is 30 NM across. I had to explain that i was out on top :-) There
is probably not much GA traffic that climbs out on top. Asked and got permission
for class Charley up to FL125. Cruise at 65 % power 135 knots indicated, 17
L/h, and 150-155 on the GPS. There was no wind. It got me home all right, would
not have been possible with the C172 :-)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel Speed Kit |
Justin
who's your inspector? Have you talked to Bob Gardiner at Cumbernauld
(Bridge of Weir) ? Experienced composite inspector.
01505 613327
Graham
Justin Kennedy wrote:
> Hi All
>
>
>
> We made our own speed kit consisting only of outrigger fairings and wing
> root fairings. While both are unlike the normal ones we felt the wing
> fairings made the biggest difference. We have no other speed kit
> elements, even the tail wheel is naked.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Speed increase with aft CG |
| From: | <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Anyone have any numbers for speed increase with aft CG versus frward CG?
How about a guess for speed increase 1370 or 1450 AUW 61" CG versus 59"?
(+50 Knots, +5 Knots, +.5 Knots)??
How about a guess for increase 1370 AUW 62.5" CG versus 59"?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> |
Just a thought, but if everyone is so concerned about VNE, Flutter etc
would it not be worth commisioning a computer modeling simulation for a few
thousand dollars, as was done with the lancair, and find all the sortcomings
in one go and be handed the solutions, if memory serves this type of
modeling
on the lancair took the theoretical max speed up to over 500kts, and the
solutions were as simple as a few extra layups of uni in the correct spots.
just a thought
I for one would pay for a share in such a study, if just to have the
knowledge i am safe at 150kts or 180kts or ..... etc
2:02 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Craigh,
It is a gross misunderstanding that anybody should be worried about flutter, VNE
etc. The Europa is a wonderfull design, and is better tested then most kit planes.
I thind we are under-appreciating the lot of work that Ivan and his friends
have put in to it. After that, the type has tens of thousands of flying hours
without any structural problem. Most of that worrying seems te be done by
folks who are not flying their plane yet. Don't! Enjoy the build, and you will
enjoy the result. Your sign-off makes me frown, you can fly today if you want,
rent-a-plane or so. Don't hurry the build, it leads to frustration, and you
will finish building before the plane is ready.:-)
Computer modelling is fine, maybe there are areas where improvement is possible.
But i doubt it will return anything usefull for the money.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> |
Thanks for the reply, as far as my post goes, I have no problems with flying
at VNE, When i did my licence it was mostly in a Piper Tomahawk, most tomies
are slow and predictable except for the stall, (I flew a few different ones)
but the main one had a different prop and would run through VNE in cruise
flight if you didnt watch it, which IMHO was a good thing as it meant you
had to slow down to VA if things got bumpy, so it taught you be concious of
your airspeed at all times, not just takeoff landing etc. My main reason
for suggesting the modeling was to maybe see if the VNE could be increased
at reduced MTOW. Sort of working backwards from the ultimate load of 8.55g
suggested by europa at the standard MTOW of 1300 or 1370 a reduction of
about
40 lbs would seem to suggest a new ultimate load of 9.0 g which is what is
required for a full aerobatic rating in australia of 6.0g (+50% safety
margin) which would intern mean an increase in VNE provided no flutter
issues
are a problem, which is where the computer modeling comes in. As far as the
signoff goes, dont get me wrong I am enjoying the build, seeing it grow, and
getting satisfaction from each bit i finish, but all my spare cash goes into
the plane so flying for the moment is not happening, thats why i wish it was
built, especially when we get a day thats almost calm with unlimited vis
and temps in the 20's it makes me want to be up there.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of josok
Sent: Saturday, 22 September 2007 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Craigh,
It is a gross misunderstanding that anybody should be worried about flutter,
VNE etc. The Europa is a wonderfull design, and is better tested then most
kit planes. I thind we are under-appreciating the lot of work that Ivan and
his friends have put in to it. After that, the type has tens of thousands of
flying hours without any structural problem. Most of that worrying seems te
be done by folks who are not flying their plane yet. Don't! Enjoy the build,
and you will enjoy the result. Your sign-off makes me frown, you can fly
today if you want, rent-a-plane or so. Don't hurry the build, it leads to
frustration, and you will finish building before the plane is ready.:-)
Computer modelling is fine, maybe there are areas where improvement is
possible. But i doubt it will return anything usefull for the money.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
2:02 PM
2:02 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Pottorff" <Richard_Pottorff(at)msn.com> |
There was a Wind Tunnel column in Kit Planes magazine a few months ago
about Vne. The upshot was that you don't use indicated or calibrated
airspeed to determine Vne. You use TAS. For those of you who have to
dive to Vne, if you do your calculations ahead of time, and start high
enough, you could actually reach Vne well before you exceed the
structural cruising speed.
Vne is concerned with the actual speed of the air molecules hitting the
control surfaces, not the number of air molecules that hit the airplane
per second.
Hope this helps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers,
I have a nagging thought to offer. Having experienced the external
mods on a nymber of different machines, it occurred to me to mention that
one may want to have a confab with the designer concerning the change in
sidereal area of the mainwheel drag reduction. I intended to do that but
want to fly her basic first for comparison later.
A number of ahead-of-CoG mods made a big difference in the spin
characteristics, partricularly after the third rotation - that's one
advantage of the Europa - a demonstrated 12-turn spin in each direction - a
rare event. Note the ventral strakes on an F16. These have been called Lawn
Darts in the past.
We don't want someone trying to screw a EUPA into the back garden
from 13,000 feet.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | wing upper skin fitting |
Having had the internals of my starboard wing successfully inspected,
I'm getting ready to close it up. I offered up the upper rear wing
skin and noticed a few oddities.
First, the skin appears to be longer than required and it seems that
the tip end should be trimmed - there is a 5mm gap between it and the
tip moulding at the spar, if the TE is butted up. Also, in that
position the brown foam doubler doesn't clear the root rib. Thus it
seems pretty clear that the skin should be fitted with the root end
flush with the root rib flange, and the tip end trimmed to fit the
tip moulding.
I had to remove a small area of brown foam on the bottom skin, and
add a BID patch over the area, to accomodate my outboard horn box
(the aileron horn positions didn't quite match the wing mouldings)
and I will have to do the same with the upper skin, so it's not
sitting quite right yet. However, I noticed another reason for the
poor fit at the TE.
When looking at the underside of the top skin in the horn box
regions, I noticed artifacts that look like lines of resin proud of
the skin surface. They are about 1mm thick and run along close to the
TE, symmetrically disposed about each cutaway in the brown foam for
the horn-box, for about 130mm (inner) or 150mm (outer) with, at each
end, a line at right-angles forward towards the brown foam.
It almost looks as though something rectangular was pressed against
the undersurface of the skin during cure, forcing excess resin out to
its edges. Might even have been a T-shaped thing fitting into the
horn-box cutaways.
Questions:
(1) Are these excresences supposed to be there? (And if so what
purpose do they serve?)
(2) If they shouldn't be there, is it OK just to rub them down flush
with the surrounding area? (If I don't rub them down, it'll be hard
to abrade the area within the lines for the Redux bond.)
If no-one here has any prior art on this problem (I suspect not, as a
search of my archives failed to bring up anything drectly relevant)
I'll call Roger at the factory after the weekend.
(3) An additional query - my manual says the top skin is to be glued
on with a Redux-flox mixture, but I can find no suggestions about
what proportion of flox to add.
(4) And a final, possibly related thought. My inspector has suggested
bonding on the top wing skin upside-down (with appropriate jigging to
apply pressure to the joint areas) so that any Redux that squidges
out under pressure cannot fall onto the aileron controls, etc, but
instead forms a fillet at the edge of all the joints. I had forgotten
when discussing this with him about the flox - maybe that would make
it thick enough to avoid any tendency to drip?
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson PFA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 800 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
<>
I tried that.
It made no difference to CHT, oil or water temps. But why would it; those
systems are cooled independently to what goes on under the cowl.
However, (with the 912S air shroud fitted) the cylinder wall temperatures
went up SUBSTANTIALLY. So much so that I could easily believe that on a hot
day and an extended full power climbout they would quickly exceed the
maximum permitted (190C). Fortunately, I never experienced that
configuration before finding out this.
By closing the gills, 'competition' for cowl exit area is increased.
On the other hand, the temparature of the alternator regultator didn't seem
to be affected at all.
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Seaver (terrys)
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the
engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they add
no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator opening
and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine and is
rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy back there.
We carefully installed the Kim Prout main gear fairings and saw ZERO
improvement in cruise speed, which leads me to believe that the lower cowl
exit is so turbulent that fairing in the main gear (or even retracting it)
has little value. A magazine flight test on the Europa motor glider
reported that there was no improvement in glide performance gear up vs gear
down, which further supports my suspicion on the cowl problems.
regards,
Terry Seaver
N135TD, XS mono-wheel with 912S.
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs. Several of us here in
Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed the speed kits looking
for 10 kts advantage. However it was not to be.
Though visually attractive, I've had my doubts about the mono speed kit.
For example, the flap hinge fairings have a large frontal area and are open
at the rear, neither characteristic will IMHO reduce drag. In my spare
moments I'm working on very narrow FG wrapped balsa skirts which slip over
the hinge plates and fit w/ minor FG moldings at both the pivot point and
wing surface intersection. I'll post pixs when I have something fitted.
I suspect the biggest source of drag not addressed by the mono SK is that of
the main wheel and wheel well, something which Alex Bowman has a handle on
and shown on pixs posted at:
www.europaowners.orgmodules.php?set_albumName=album149&id=DSCN0096&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
The exposed outrigger wheel is a source of drag which the speed kit fairing
doesn't address. Here are some pixs of a fully enclosed outrigger which has
a spring loaded afterbody which hinges up when flaps are deployed; airstream
on mini-tailplane locks it back down when flaps are raised...this is a
prototype not yet tested in flight...(hey, we're building experimental
aircraft, are we not?)
Fred
A194
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tailplane integrity suggestion |
| From: | "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com> |
I received several responses to my post a few days ago concerning the binding problem
I am having with my torque tube (i.e., inability to fit into TP6 bushing).
Phil advised that early versions of TP4 and the bushes were ground to match
each other, rather that to standard drawing dimensions. I tried the other
TP4 I have (the one installed on the plane) and it fit better, actually allowing
me to get the starboard tailplane all the way on TP4 on the shop bench and
seated into the TP13 bushes.
Unfortunately, I cannot get the tailplane on when TP4 is mounted on the fuselage,
it is so tight. When I checked the port tailplane (and opened up the surface
to reveal the TP6 bushing) it was clear on visual inspection that the TP6 was
out of alignment by at least a millimeter. (These tailplanes were purchased
from a charity which obtained them from an estate, so I do not know the provenance
of the construction).
I will definitely have to remove/reseat the TP6 bushing on the port tailplane,
and probably the starboard as well.
A thought occurred to me: why not have a tube machined that is one piece, the
length from TP5 inboard to TP6 outboard and replacing both those bushings, instead
of 2 bushes with space between them? Having the 2 bushes a distance apart
seems to make it likely the 2 could be installed out of alignment, whereas a
single tube/bushing could not possibly be.
Any thoughts on this suggestion? If I have to remove or reset both bushings in
both tailplanes, it seems efficient to just replace both with a single tube,
and guarantee the integrity of the tailplane retention (at least with respect
to the possible unbonding of TP6).
Also, any suggestions on the proper technique to remove the bonded-in TP6 and TP5
bushes without damaging the surrounding material would be appreciated.
Thanks,
George Powell
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Outriggers - Lockin |
Hi all,
Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As the
airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing off,
over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was a
windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know
some people have fitted them in the past.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Trailering a monowheel |
Hi all,
I need to trailer my mono wheel about 80 miles on a standard mono
wheel trailer. I rarely trailer my aircraft and the longest distance
I have taken it on my trailer is probably 5 miles.
Could some of the more seasoned folks give me a few tips I need to
consider when I trailer mine.
Thanks, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a monowheel |
Paul, Nice and slow... ;)
Jeff - Baby Blue
329 hours
Paul McAllister wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I need to trailer my mono wheel about 80 miles on a standard mono
> wheel trailer. I rarely trailer my aircraft and the longest distance
> I have taken it on my trailer is probably 5 miles.
>
> Could some of the more seasoned folks give me a few tips I need to
> consider when I trailer mine.
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
Paul
Sorry to hear about this incident. I will take your advice and install
microswitches on the outriggers. How does the airmaster governor handle
a prop strike? Does it have to be checked/serviced too?
--- Paul McAllister wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down.
> As the
> airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the
> wing off,
> over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it
> was a
> windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
>
> So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I
> know
> some people have fitted them in the past.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tailplane integrity suggestion |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
On Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 11:54 AM, G&TPowell wrote:
> A thought occurred to me: why not have a tube machined that is one
> piece, the length from TP5 inboard to TP6 outboard and replacing both
> those bushings, instead of 2 bushes with space between them? Having
> the 2 bushes a distance apart seems to make it likely the 2 could be
> installed out of alignment, whereas a single tube/bushing could not
> possibly be.
Go for it George...yu da man!
Your thought has been advocated in the past and installed by some...at
least a variant there on.
Fred
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
Sorry to hear of your mishap Paul...Ouch! If you can determine
probable cause it would be much appreciated,
Fred
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down.
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Tailplane integrity suggestion |
<>
Yep I did exactly that, during construction I could see all the discussion
going on about tp6 i though it wasnt worth the stress, so down to the metal
shop found a 1m length of tube with an ID .08 of a mm different than the
tp6 ID it did have a thicker wall than original so a small countersink in
the
top allowed the pip pin to lock fully. I also having the extra length ran
the
tube into the outer foam core about 100mm or so. I epoxied the tube into the
inner foam, did the rib layup then coated the "excess" tube in epoxy and
slid
that into the outer, then glass as normal. It seems to work nicely, slides
on and off easily, no risk of damage to tp6 etc.
craig
2:02 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tony.bale(at)virgin.net" <tony.bale(at)virgin.net> |
| Subject: | Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September |
David,
Just a quick thank you for todays fly-in. Excellent do, very well
organised, you must have been pleased with the turnout, would love to know
how you booked the weather !!
Looking forward to the next one.
ATB
Tony
G-CCUL.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: David Watts dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:25:11 +0100
Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September
Hi all,
just a short reminder that this coming Saturday is the annual Laddingford
Fly-in.
At the moment the forecasts for the weekend look really good ( at least
down this way).
In years gone by we usually have a really good turnout, with up to 20
Europas in attendance plus many other aircraft. We have already got a head
start this year with 5 Europas in the hangar at the present time.
We will be using the safety com frequency 135.475 with circuits at 1000ft
to the north if we are using the 750 mtr. 11 / 29 runway (to the east in
the unlikey event of using the 450 mtr. 03 / 21). It is likely to be busy
so keep a good lookout. The runway at around the midpoint has become a
little bit bumpy with the mostly dry weather that we have had down this way
throughout the summer, so keep your eye on that, but the aerodrome is
manicured to its usual impecable standard.
We will have a barbecue for everybody who comes (small donation asked for,
that goes to the air ambulance after costs).
We shall be giving pleasure flights to anybody that we can force in to the
cockpits, so if you would like to help out with that then let us know on
the day.
Here's looking forward to another excellent day,
Dave Watts
Europa Classic G-BXDY
Laddingford Aerodrome Manager
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel AUVRAY" <mau11(at)free.fr> |
| Subject: | Outriggers - Lockin |
Hi Paul,
I remember my 3th or 4th flight I have the same problem, the outrigger don't
deploy and secure his position. During landing there is no problem at the
end of the rolling the left wing have tendancy to down. I stop on the left
side os the runway, and descending of the aircraft , deploy and secure the
outrigger and restart. But no ground loop. After that I check and adjust the
outrigger mechanism. But after that incident, in flight I take the habitude,
after the gear down to rock the wings right to left and sometimes I heard
the outrigger lock by gravity. (Sorry for my poor English)
Michel AUVRAY
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Paul
McAllister
Envoy : samedi 22 septembre 2007 21:13
: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Outriggers - Lockin
Hi all,
Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As the
airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing off,
over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was a
windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know
some people have fitted them in the past.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> |
Not exactly Richard,
The main issue is mass times velocity squared, so it's both speed and
number of molecules
Viscocity comes into it too becaues flutter is a resonance issue.
Graham
Richard Pottorff wrote:
>
> Vne is concerned with the actual speed of the air molecules hitting the
> control surfaces, not the number of air molecules that hit the airplane
> per second.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Laddingford Fly-in |
Hi all,
what a fanatastic day we had yesterday at our Laddingford Fly-in.
(Unfortunately the weather was not over the whole country and some
called to say they had tried to get down but failed).
By the end of the day we had 17 Europas in amongst 46 aircraft at the
event and all seemed to have enjoyed an excellent day amongst like
minded people.
We managed to raise around =A3400 for the Kent Air Ambulance Trust
through donations. Thank you.
Again the weather played its part and we enjoyed calm to light winds and
pleasant temperatures.
Thank you to all who attended and made all the preparation work
worthwhile.
Dave Watts
Europa G-BXDY
Laddingford Aerodrome Manager
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
My gills are closed, and while i don't have "before" experience, i can confirm
it is the cowl air exit that is restricting airflow. I have my OAT probe in the
air-inlet box, and it sees warm air, ,where it should only get air from the
NACA vent. I have the Singleton firewall, which probably reduces outlet area more
then the factory metal one. Temperatures are withing range now, but no real
hot weather experience yet. Have a 914 with a shroud!
The next thing i would like to try is to partially or completely close off the
original air-inlet openings, to reduce the amount of competing air on the outlet.
Comments please!
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aileron lenght |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Mine were both too long, and made exactly as the Manual dictates. Nev confirmed
me that there have been some too long foam pieces around. On his advice i cut
them to the right lenght, outboard side, dug out foam and made nice new ends.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Hi! All
In part to be viewed in reply to Jos Okhuijsen's message re-Rotax 914
cooling .
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
IMG_0410 G-PTAG front view off centre port side new Rotax/Europa cowls
with modified Cooling air intakes.
IMG_0411 G-PTAG front view off centre starboard side new Rotax/Europa
Cowls with modified Cooling air intakes.
Regards
Bob Harrison
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
Hi! Jos
Herewith the picture of a "splash" copy of Peter Kembers Mod for the
cowl inlet ducts which Ivor Phillips kindly produced for me.
The only beef I have at present is the tendency to overheat on a delayed
departure, but many people advise this will ease by about 50 hours on
the clock.
In the short term I'm considering "jacking" the lower cowl fixings off
the fuselage by about 1" as per my previous success with the
Jabiru/Europa Cowl.
All the top cowl gills are closed and I have an insulated "bread box"
(as described by Neville!) on the P1 footwell for the Regulator unit and
the Turbo Servo unit with some cold air bled off the cooling air duct.
In flight I've never seen the temps within the box to be more than 32
deg C with ambients around 22 deg C but without the water and oil check
flaps open on shut down the temps in this box do rise to in the region
of 40 deg C.
Due to my incapability with shifting files about I'm sending on further
pictures re. this message under another separate message !
Hopefully this is constructive help in the cooling debate?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: 23 September 2007 09:49
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
My gills are closed, and while i don't have "before" experience, i can
confirm it is the cowl air exit that is restricting airflow. I have my
OAT probe in the air-inlet box, and it sees warm air, ,where it should
only get air from the NACA vent. I have the Singleton firewall, which
probably reduces outlet area more then the factory metal one.
Temperatures are withing range now, but no real hot weather experience
yet. Have a 914 with a shroud!
The next thing i would like to try is to partially or completely close
off the original air-inlet openings, to reduce the amount of competing
air on the outlet. Comments please!
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RoddyEuropa(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
When I tested my outriggers locking, the the aircraft jacked up on the
ground, they worked fine. But I think they only locked when I slowed below the
gear retraction speed - I heard a distinct knock which I assume was the locking
taking place when the aircraft slowed to near approach speed. I believe the
drag at higher speed was keeping the outriggers held back and only when the
speed reduced did gravity kick in and they locked.
So, I would recommend checking that they lock down on the ground with some
back pressure on the outriggers - I attached a bungee to the outrigger wheel
and pulled it back during the ground test. Sure enough, no locking until the
back pressure was reduced. Once adjusted all working fine and no problems
since.
Roddy Kesterton
G-IKRK
In a message dated 22/09/2007 20:16:20 GMT Standard Time,
paul.mcallister(at)qia.net writes:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
Hi all,
Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As the
airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing off,
over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was a
windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know
some people have fitted them in the past.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Thanks Bob,
Most helpful, the pictures came through good as well. The change on the bottom
cowl certainly looks good. Makes me think: What about doing away with that tunnel
altogether, and only have something like a boxed radiator on the bottom? It
would bring back the beautiful classic look, probably reduce drag, and still
having more air flowing through the radiator(s). Comments please :-)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
>From: RoddyEuropa(at)aol.com
>Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outriggers - Lockin
>Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 07:41:03 EDT
>
>
>When I tested my outriggers locking, the the aircraft jacked up on the
>ground, they worked fine. But I think they only locked when I slowed below
>the
>gear retraction speed - I heard a distinct knock which I assume was the
>locking
>taking place when the aircraft slowed to near approach speed. I believe
>the
>drag at higher speed was keeping the outriggers held back and only when
>the
>speed reduced did gravity kick in and they locked.
>
>So, I would recommend checking that they lock down on the ground with some
>back pressure on the outriggers - I attached a bungee to the outrigger
>wheel
>and pulled it back during the ground test. Sure enough, no locking until
>the
>back pressure was reduced. Once adjusted all working fine and no problems
>since.
>
>Roddy Kesterton
>G-IKRK
>
>In a message dated 22/09/2007 20:16:20 GMT Standard Time,
>paul.mcallister(at)qia.net writes:
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As
>the
>airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing
>off,
>over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was
>a
>windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
>
>So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know
>some people have fitted them in the past.
>
>Paul
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get Pimped! FREE emoticon packs from Windows Live -
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Pottorff" <Richard_Pottorff(at)msn.com> |
At the risk of inciting a religious war, I found site backing up my
previous claim that VNE is dependent on TAS not IAS nor CAS:
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/flutter.html
undschool/flutter.html>
13.2 Standard airspeed limitations<>
If Vne is expressed in terms of true airspeed then its value remains the
same no matter what the [density] altitude. However though indicated
airspeed reflects dynamic pressure it understates the true airspeed so
if the structural limitations which define Vne for an aircraft type are
particularly associated with the distribution of forces associated with
flow velocity then the specified Vne as an indicated airspeed has to be
decreased as altitude is increased - to adjust it to the true airspeed,
which latter is about 1.5% greater than IAS/CAS for every 1000 feet of
altitude, see rule of thumb
#2<http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule2.html#cas_tas>.
For most light aircraft it is reasonable that only one Vne is specified
in the Pilot's Operating Handbook or Flight Manual and that value may
have been calculated for a 'normal' cruising altitude, say 5000 feet,
rather than ISA mean sea level.
If uncertain about a particular aircraft multiply the (density)
altitude, in 1000s of feet, by a factor of 1.5 to get the percentage
DECREASE to apply to the specified Vne for a corrected Vne appropriate
to the altitude. For example if altitude is 8000 feet and specified Vne
is 100 knots then 8[000] =D7 1.5 = 12%. Corrected Vne = 88% of 100
= 88 knots IAS/CAS.
Table 1 is a normal calculation of corrected Vne, you can see that the
difference between the 140 knots specified and the corrected Vne is
significant and that it appears quite possible for turbocharged low drag
aircraft to exceed corrected Vne in level flight at higher altitudes.
Vne as a maximum airspeed applies only for smooth atmospheric conditions
and for gentle control movements; even vertical gusts associated with
mild turbulence or control movements greater than say 25% travel will
lead to some nasty surprises, if operating close to but below Vne. At
such high speed the controls are very effective with a high possibility
for over-control applying extreme loads to the structures and some
aircraft control systems provide an inadequate feedback of the load
being exerted i.e. a high load can be applied with a relatively low
stick force..
Be aware: deliberately exceeding Vne is the realm of the test pilot -
who always wears a parachute!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Speed increase with aft CG |
Certainly a lot less than 5kts difference on mine at 1370 (although I
haven't been too scientific about this).
Willie H
On 21 Sep 2007, at 22:29,
wrote:
>
> Anyone have any numbers for speed increase with aft CG versus
> frward CG?
>
> How about a guess for speed increase 1370 or 1450 AUW 61" CG versus
> 59"?
>
> (+50 Knots, +5 Knots, +.5 Knots)??
>
> How about a guess for increase 1370 AUW 62.5" CG versus 59"?
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll |
Paul,
I have trailered my plane and bits several times account bedroom
squeeze at home and have had some damage.
[1] The rubber slings mar the wing badly. Produce some heavy polythene
plastic (6mil) pieces 8"x80" and folded lengthwise to cover the slings and
prevent old rubber marking the wings;
[2] Cover the pip-pins locking the slings in place (at the bottom) with
heavy foam to prevent the road bumps from banging the leading edge into the
pins - very work-making repair;
[2A] Duck tape soft foam bundles to the inside top edge of the sling
frames to prevent damage to the fuselage sides, as I haven't been able to
stop SOME motion of the fuselage nearby;
[3] Initially inspect the slings for deterioration (mine were ten years
old) and cracking, because if they let go the wing drops onto the pin. (The
permanent fix is to redrill the pin holes to one side - out of the way);
[4] Use long bungee cords to hold the wings down into the slings - this
will prevent excess bobbing on the bumps;
[5] I have not found any cover for the trailer which won't flap somehow
and damage a delicate finish - choose a good day, and stay off the stones,
sand;
[6] Use inner tubes elastics or short bungees over the bolt ends to
clamp the outriggers vertical and fabricate two (or four) vee-shaped sheets
to slip over the aileron ends to prevent motion;
[7] Depending on speed, fabricate a 3- or 4-layer fibreglass loop shaped
to prevent the rudder from flapping (it's out front). This also stops the
tailwheel from shimmying in the lock and the fuselage from side-to-side
wander;
[8] If you must trailer in poor conditions, make some soft funnels to
cover the wing trailing edge root corners to prevent inevitable cover holes
from flapping. Same for tip trailing edges.
[9] Use some form of pulley to double the draw of the tailwheel tightly
enough to lock the mainwheel up easily. Mine requires some compression of
the main tire to seat that tail properly.
[10] If it's first time, you will want to ensure the mainwheel 'bucket'
folds up outside and against the gearswing arm as tight clearances there
assure vertical state of the fuselage. It marks but who cares?
My personal experience is that 40 bungees is not too many a number to stop
flapping.
There's always an excuse for one more...........
Hope that helps
Ferg
PS: I modified the spar boxes on the trailer so that they clamp securely to
the spare on both sides - one is built to accommodate the spar 'tunnel' in
the heavyweight mod.
Don't use the stab pipes - I'm still trying to rescue a plastic pipe end
from inside a stab. Hope you saved the foam forms the stabs came in - ideal
holders.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Drag reduction |
John,
> you could install a Jab and do away with the radiator, gills and the
> stock, stubby Europa cowl altogether.
Of course an aircooled engine doesn't need a coolant radiator, but the
cooling needs are about the same !
Due to aerodynamic and thermodynamic considerations, an air-cooled
engine will always drag a little more than its liquid-cooled
counterpart. That is provided the cooling installation is equallly well
designed in both cases.
Concerning the Europa cowl, I agree with you it seems in need of some
aerodynamical improvements ;-)
>
> The 1800+ fpm climb rate I'm regularly seeing with my Jab is nothing
> to sneeze at, nor is the $10,000 lower price over the 912S.
Would you care to share any precise speed measurements (3 GPS runs, max
take off weight, record of altitude, OAT, etc.) ?
My Jabiru buddies are getting soooo discreet when it comes to actual
performance ;-(
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: a gamechanger! |
Fred Klein a crit :
>
> seats 2, 912S, stall @ 53 kts, VNE 270 kts, max. cruise @ 200 kts
Hey Fred,
Considering the small wing and obviously long takeoff run, they still
have some work to make it fly so slowly. And seeing the tufts on the aft
fuselage and fin, they'll have some work to make it fly so fast.
Let's say approach at 75 and cruise at 140-150 kts with a 912S....
Quite correct, but definitely not short take off.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Hi Bob,
I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades.
What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you
finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance.
Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller.
We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is
something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only
other one I was aware of.
Carl Pattinson
G_LABS
PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)oh.rr.com> |
Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S. Regs for production
aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the ASI.
If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could indicate down
near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and contrary to what they say,
our ailerons won't be very effective at all. How can we possibly experience aileron
flutter just above stall speed?
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Carl,
Me too, Woodcomp wit scimitar blades and reverse, Smart Avionics controller. I
like them both, and enjoy the money saved. The reverse is nice to generate surprise
on faces, backing up into a parking space. Have not tried reverse during
roll-out yet. Only concrete landings so far, it could be handy on grass and
will be handy on ice.
Since i have never flown with anything else, it's difficult to compare. Ivan Shaw
found the prop smooth and silent running. He also was not sure about it's efficiency,
but it was at engine run-in time, difficult to say. There is no vibration
at all. It came assembled and balanced. The numbers are as William once
published. At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse, doing 135 knots indicated and
4800 on the controller. More throttle to climb a bit more resulted in more
revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
David, Thanks to you and Peter et al for the organisation yesterday. My
son and I thoroughly enjoyed the occasion. It is what the Europa was
designed and built for. Regards to all,
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
| From: | "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com> |
> At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse ... More throttle to climb a bit more resulted
in more revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected?
Well, yes, if the prop is already at maximum coarse, increasing the throttle will
raise the RPM.
My own SR3000 does run out of coarse pitch in the cruise but that is due to the
coarse limit limit (!) imposed by the PFA. Other regimes may well allow the prop
to go coarser so it won't run out of pitch. A possible issue here is that
I only have the baby motor (80hp) so the +ve ROC test in fully coarse is always
going to be a bit of a struggle.
Apart from that annoyance, I find the SR3000 splendid. It's very smooth (in more
ways than one), has fantastic leading edge protection and the carbon finish
looks stunning.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135925#135925
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
| From: | "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net> |
Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any pictures
somwhere i can look at?
Steve. #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM> |
Based on my reading, it is too simplistic to say that flutter depends
only on TAS. An exact model would have to include IAS and TAS, and not
necessarily in a linear fashion. In the example of flying at FL450, the
airplane is unlikely to encounter flutter with a dynamic pressure that
is near stall condition. However, it is true that the margin between
stall and flutter can significantly narrow at higher altitudes. I was
told that the U-2 only has a few knots margin between stall and flutter
at its highest operational altitude.
--- europa flugzeug fabrik wrote:
>
>
> Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S.
> Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the
> ASI.
>
> If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could
> indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and
> contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at
> all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall
> speed?
>
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com> |
Here is another definition for the debate.
VNE
The VNE , or the never exceed speed, of an aircraft is the V speed
which refers to the velocity that should never be exceeded due to risk
of structural failure, due to calculated factors such as wing or tail
deformation or due to aeroelastic 'flutter' (unstable airframe or
control oscillation). VNE is specified as a red line on many airspeed
indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model, and represents
the edge of its performance envelope in terms of speed. Well below the
speed of sound, the VNE is read as Indicated Air Speed (IAS), since the
pitot indication is a direct measure of the dynamic pressure for any
given airspeed. At altitude, where TAS is higher than IAS, aerodynamic
damping is weaker than at lower levels (damping is proportional to IAS)
whereas inertia-induced disturbances are stronger (inertia grows with
acceleration, which is the time derivative of TAS). This condition, if
continued beyond tested limits, pre-disposes to unstable oscillations or
'flutter'. For instance, the TAS/IAS ratio at 40,000 ft on the ICAO ISA
is 2:1, that is, TAS is approximately twice IAS.
Every aircraft I have ever flown stated the Vne as indicated airspeed.
The Falcon 20 I'm away flying at the moment has its Vne and Vno stated
as an indicated airspeed.
Just been to the bar to get a beer and a colleague of mine answered the
question - Vne is in indicated airspeed always. How else would the
pilot know if he were exceeding it. I have some respect for his opinion
as he recently retired from British Aerospace as a Senior Test Pilot, he
flew harriers and did much of the flight testing on the new Typhoon 2
fighter.
I don't know why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about the
flight at Vne. Ivan and Pete Clark did a lot of testing of the europa.
I do it every year at permit renewal as required and it really is a non
event - I must confess however that I cannot see the point of that
particular part of the flight test schedule.
Incidentally, at medium to light weights G-JULZ will achieve Vne
straight and level at 2000 feet (indicated airspeed) 914/Airmaster
'with the pedal to the metal'. Andy Draper found the ASI to reasonably
accurate - I don't worry about it too much anyway.
I don't think we Rotax chaps need to worry too much anyway. It would be
different if we all fitted Jabiru 6s - we could then climb at some mind
spinning rate towards the tropopause and cruise at a Mach No - just to
be cool. Of course we would have to fit a larger fuel tank - wouldn't
we Bob? One distinct advantage of the Jabiru is that at those dizzy
altitudes it can reach you will be able to keep the cabin warm -
apparently many of them overheat or have some type of cooling issues.
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth.................
It makes me want to sign on again.
Now don't get upset, just having a bit of a leg pull - you are all
getting far too serious.
regards,
Mike.
"TAKE COVER!!!!..........INCOMING"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com> |
Actually, I think that you were told wrong.
If you read Gary Powers' book the quote is "The U2 has only a few Knots
between the stall and Critical Mach Number." I didn' think that flutter was
a big issue with irreversable power flying controls.
regards,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Sarangan" <asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE
>
> Based on my reading, it is too simplistic to say that flutter depends
> only on TAS. An exact model would have to include IAS and TAS, and not
> necessarily in a linear fashion. In the example of flying at FL450, the
> airplane is unlikely to encounter flutter with a dynamic pressure that
> is near stall condition. However, it is true that the margin between
> stall and flutter can significantly narrow at higher altitudes. I was
> told that the U-2 only has a few knots margin between stall and flutter
> at its highest operational altitude.
>
>
> --- europa flugzeug fabrik wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S.
>> Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the
>> ASI.
>>
>> If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could
>> indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and
>> contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at
>> all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall
>> speed?
>>
>> Fred F.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 15/09/2007 19:54
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)oh.rr.com> |
I used FL 450 only to exaggerate the raw effect of reduced aerodynamic pressure,
and other things happen with really high performance aircraft way up there.
However, FAR Part 23 is clear that Vne is determined with reference to several
things, all of which have to with pressure, IOW air density. If there is a
significant variance with Vne vs. altitude, then the ASI must have a way to so
indicate. No Part 23 airplane in the Europa's class has such an ASI, right?.
A simple red line (what don't move!) complies with the rules.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135939#135939
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll |
May I suggest you remove the rubber slings altogether and replace with heavy
duty carpet cut in a triangular shape (actually its diamond shaped before
you fit it) so that there is at least 12 inches of support at the leading
edge. Make sure there is at least 3" clearance between the leading edge and
the base of the sling support (and also pack some foam here in case the
slings stretch).
It is possible to fit a (wide) strap over the outboard ends of the flaps to
prevent the wings from bouncing up and down in the slings. Make sure they
are clamped securely at the root ends and use packing if necessary.
Also make sure the base of the tyre is tightly packed into the U channel
(ie: that it fits). If necessary over inflate the tyre (once it is in situ).
If you dont the fuselage may tip over and the flap tube ends contact with
the top of your wings and dent them. You may consider taping carpet covered
squares to the wing surface where this could occur. If the fuselage is
properly supported in the channel which grips the top of the wheel swinging
arm there should not be that much movement but if not you will need to use
packing strips (glued into place).
Also carry the tailplanes inside your vehicle and not on the trailer if
possible.
Apologies if im repeating what others have said.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll
>
> Paul,
> I have trailered my plane and bits several times account bedroom
> squeeze at home and have had some damage.
> [1] The rubber slings mar the wing badly. Produce some heavy polythene
> plastic (6mil) pieces 8"x80" and folded lengthwise to cover the slings and
> prevent old rubber marking the wings;
> [2] Cover the pip-pins locking the slings in place (at the bottom) with
> heavy foam to prevent the road bumps from banging the leading edge into
> the
> pins - very work-making repair;
> [2A] Duck tape soft foam bundles to the inside top edge of the sling
> frames to prevent damage to the fuselage sides, as I haven't been able to
> stop SOME motion of the fuselage nearby;
> [3] Initially inspect the slings for deterioration (mine were ten years
> old) and cracking, because if they let go the wing drops onto the pin.
> (The
> permanent fix is to redrill the pin holes to one side - out of the way);
> [4] Use long bungee cords to hold the wings down into the slings - this
> will prevent excess bobbing on the bumps;
> [5] I have not found any cover for the trailer which won't flap somehow
> and damage a delicate finish - choose a good day, and stay off the stones,
> sand;
> [6] Use inner tubes elastics or short bungees over the bolt ends to
> clamp the outriggers vertical and fabricate two (or four) vee-shaped
> sheets
> to slip over the aileron ends to prevent motion;
> [7] Depending on speed, fabricate a 3- or 4-layer fibreglass loop shaped
> to prevent the rudder from flapping (it's out front). This also stops the
> tailwheel from shimmying in the lock and the fuselage from side-to-side
> wander;
> [8] If you must trailer in poor conditions, make some soft funnels to
> cover the wing trailing edge root corners to prevent inevitable cover
> holes
> from flapping. Same for tip trailing edges.
> [9] Use some form of pulley to double the draw of the tailwheel tightly
> enough to lock the mainwheel up easily. Mine requires some compression of
> the main tire to seat that tail properly.
> [10] If it's first time, you will want to ensure the mainwheel 'bucket'
> folds up outside and against the gearswing arm as tight clearances there
> assure vertical state of the fuselage. It marks but who cares?
>
> My personal experience is that 40 bungees is not too many a number to stop
> flapping.
> There's always an excuse for one more...........
>
> Hope that helps
> Ferg
> PS: I modified the spar boxes on the trailer so that they clamp securely
> to
> the spare on both sides - one is built to accommodate the spar 'tunnel' in
> the heavyweight mod.
> Don't use the stab pipes - I'm still trying to rescue a plastic pipe end
> from inside a stab. Hope you saved the foam forms the stabs came in -
> ideal
> holders.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
I took some pictures and will try to post them here when I get a chance.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in
>
> Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any
> pictures somwhere i can look at?
>
> Steve. #573
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Hi! Carl
The only problems encountered at present is the 20 pages of test details
the PFA expects! If you don't remember to note "chapter and verse" when
doing the test it means doing it again. And I don't like flying with my
"head in the office"! Unable to make any pronouncements about
performance at present except with the turbo engaged the thrust is well
in excess of the MT /Jabiru range.( not proven by scientific means just
the "kick in the butt" experienced when the "taps are opened" on take
off or climb.)
I chose the Woodcomp on the basis of cost, locality for service, and
professionalism exhibited during a factory visit. The controller I have
in use is Mark Burton's Smart Avionics Controller which is working
flawlessly.
The prop. has feather facility (which I haven't used yet!) but I elected
not to have the reverse thrust capability (This is not on the top of the
PFA popularity list !) The MT was an excellent prop. for cooling on the
Jabiru but nevertheless was very expensive, and together with the
overhaul 72 month requirement and price made a change inevitable but my
mind was made up by wrecking it when my nose wheel yoke departed on
landing!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Pattinson
Sent: 23 September 2007 18:01
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411
Hi Bob,
I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades.
What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are
you
finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance.
Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller.
We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar
blade is
something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the
only
other one I was aware of.
Carl Pattinson
G_LABS
PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com> |
Yes, but why not RAS or CAS given that IAS is not necessarily accurate due to position
or instrument errors?
For example, I know that the ASI on my own aircraft progressively under-reads as
speed is increased. However, if I change the static to use cockpit static, it
then over-reads at low speed.
One of my customers who fitted a SmartASS talking ASI queried the fact that it
was reporting quite different speeds to their mechanical ASI and, subsequently,
discovered that their mechanical ASI was actually untrustworthy and needed
replacing. From memory, I think their ASI had been under-reading.
The point I am making is that the average ASI system (pitot, static, instrument,
plumbing, position errors, etc.) is very unlikely to deliver an accurate IAS
(within, say, +/- 1%). This rather makes a mockery of the PFA's requirement
to fly at VNE within one indicated speed unit.
If you think about it, it's rather a chicken-and-egg situation because how can
you check the accuracy of your ASI at VNE without flying at VNE (as indicated
by the ASI!)?
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135944#135944
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
We have a baby 912 also and are hoping it will help us get off the ground
sooner.
At an frugal 13.5 litres per hour (110kts) we are not that keen to swap it
for the 100hp version.
The lack of power on take off is our only gripe - in all other respects we
are more than happy.
Where are you based - it would be interesting to compare the performance of
our respective aircraft (assuming yours is a Classic monowheel).
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411
>
>> At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse ... More throttle to climb a bit
>> more resulted in more revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected?
>
> Well, yes, if the prop is already at maximum coarse, increasing the
> throttle will raise the RPM.
>
> My own SR3000 does run out of coarse pitch in the cruise but that is due
> to the coarse limit limit (!) imposed by the PFA. Other regimes may well
> allow the prop to go coarser so it won't run out of pitch. A possible
> issue here is that I only have the baby motor (80hp) so the +ve ROC test
> in fully coarse is always going to be a bit of a struggle.
>
> Apart from that annoyance, I find the SR3000 splendid. It's very smooth
> (in more ways than one), has fantastic leading edge protection and the
> carbon finish looks stunning.
>
> Mark
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135925#135925
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
| From: | "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com> |
Hi Carl,
Assuming it is I your message is directed at, I am based at Sleap (EGCV).
My a/c is a tri-gear so we can't really directly compare them.
However, I have noticed that the SR3000 seems to perform noticeably better at low
speed compared to the other props I have had so it may well provide the t/o
performance you are looking for. I know that William (Mills) thought that the
low speed performance was very good.
Hi Bob, what's the acceleration like on PTAG now?
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135958#135958
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
Pics as promised.
First attempt at posting so hope it works.
Dont know how to do multiples so have made a composite photo instead -
scaled to fit the page (hopefully).
Carl
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in
>
>
> I took some pictures and will try to post them here when I get a chance.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in
>
>
>>
>> Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any
>> pictures somwhere i can look at?
>>
>> Steve. #573
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Yes, Mark I was referring to your posting.
One thing I hear again and again (well I heard it from William first) is how
smooth the prop runs.
I never felt the Warp prop was noticeably rough but (having balanced the
carbs and blades) always had the feeling it could be better.
It just feels "gravelly" at certain speeds but then maybe all props are
prone to this.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:56 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411
>
> Hi Carl,
>
> Assuming it is I your message is directed at, I am based at Sleap (EGCV).
>
> My a/c is a tri-gear so we can't really directly compare them.
>
> However, I have noticed that the SR3000 seems to perform noticeably better
> at low speed compared to the other props I have had so it may well provide
> the t/o performance you are looking for. I know that William (Mills)
> thought that the low speed performance was very good.
>
> Hi Bob, what's the acceleration like on PTAG now?
>
> Mark
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135958#135958
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
| From: | "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net> |
Looks like i missed a great flyin, enjoyed the photos,
Steve #573 G-CEBV
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM> |
I read the Vne definition from wikipedia (which you posted) and your
observations that Vne is always given in IAS, and am having a difficult
time reconciling the two. If I am reading the wikipedia definition
correctly, it is saying that if the IAS is held constant (damping held
constant), as TAS increases with altitide, the inertia-induced
disturbances (derivative of TAS) will get stronger and predisposes the
airplane towards flutter.
I agree however that every airplane I have flown also had Vne given in
IAS. However, if you do a quick search on various discussion groups
(search for "Vne and flutter") the answer seems to be anything but
straight forward. Many sailplane pilots who fly up to 30-40k ft claim
Vne and stall can become the same. Others say no. The only thing that
most people seem to agree on is that Vne is difficult to pin down, and
it is neither IAS nor TAS.
--- Mike Parkin wrote:
> Here is another definition for the debate.
>
> VNE
> The VNE , or the never exceed speed, of an aircraft is the V speed
> which refers to the velocity that should never be exceeded due to
> risk of structural failure, due to calculated factors such as wing or
> tail deformation or due to aeroelastic 'flutter' (unstable airframe
> or control oscillation). VNE is specified as a red line on many
> airspeed indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model,
> and represents the edge of its performance envelope in terms of
> speed. Well below the speed of sound, the VNE is read as Indicated
> Air Speed (IAS), since the pitot indication is a direct measure of
> the dynamic pressure for any given airspeed. At altitude, where TAS
> is higher than IAS, aerodynamic damping is weaker than at lower
> levels (damping is proportional to IAS) whereas inertia-induced
> disturbances are stronger (inertia grows with acceleration, which is
> the time derivative of TAS). This condition, if continued beyond
> tested limits, pre-disposes to unstable oscillations or 'flutter'.
> For instance, the TAS/IAS ratio at 40,000 ft on the ICAO ISA is 2:1,
> that is, TAS is approximately twice IAS.
>
> Every aircraft I have ever flown stated the Vne as indicated
> airspeed. The Falcon 20 I'm away flying at the moment has its Vne
> and Vno stated as an indicated airspeed.
> Just been to the bar to get a beer and a colleague of mine answered
> the question - Vne is in indicated airspeed always. How else would
> the pilot know if he were exceeding it. I have some respect for his
> opinion as he recently retired from British Aerospace as a Senior
> Test Pilot, he flew harriers and did much of the flight testing on
> the new Typhoon 2 fighter.
>
> I don't know why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about
> the flight at Vne. Ivan and Pete Clark did a lot of testing of the
> europa. I do it every year at permit renewal as required and it
> really is a non event - I must confess however that I cannot see the
> point of that particular part of the flight test schedule.
>
> Incidentally, at medium to light weights G-JULZ will achieve Vne
> straight and level at 2000 feet (indicated airspeed) 914/Airmaster
> 'with the pedal to the metal'. Andy Draper found the ASI to
> reasonably accurate - I don't worry about it too much anyway.
>
> I don't think we Rotax chaps need to worry too much anyway. It would
> be different if we all fitted Jabiru 6s - we could then climb at some
> mind spinning rate towards the tropopause and cruise at a Mach No -
> just to be cool. Of course we would have to fit a larger fuel tank -
> wouldn't we Bob? One distinct advantage of the Jabiru is that at
> those dizzy altitudes it can reach you will be able to keep the cabin
> warm - apparently many of them overheat or have some type of cooling
> issues.
>
> Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
> And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
> Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth.................
>
> It makes me want to sign on again.
>
> Now don't get upset, just having a bit of a leg pull - you are all
> getting far too serious.
>
> regards,
>
> Mike.
>
> "TAKE COVER!!!!..........INCOMING"
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Sarangan a crit :
>
>
> I read the Vne definition from wikipedia (which you posted) and your
> observations that Vne is always given in IAS, and am having a difficult
> time reconciling the two.
Andrew and all,
As you say things are not that straightforward.
Airplanes are designed for a specific Vd (Velocity dive) which is
expected to be well below flutter velocity.
Test pilots must *demonstrate* Vdf where flutter is absent (Vdf < or = Vd).
After that, Vne is *calculated* to be Vne < or = 0.9 Vdf < or = Vd.
This takes into account any ASI inaccuracy with a reasonable safety margin.
Only test pilots are allowed to intentionnally exceed Vne up to Vd.
So provided the airplane is correctly rigged and control-balanced, there
is no problem flying up to Vne in calm air.
Be aware though, that there is also a Vno and a Va (maneuvering speed)
to comply with. At Va you are only allowed to actuate *one* control to
full deflection at a time.
FWIW,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Outriggers - Lockin |
I have microswitches on the outriggers to confirm gear position. It does
mean one extra connection when rigging the aircraft but it is very quick
and easy to do. I used two pairs of low voltage power plugs and sockets.
These stay in place but will pull out easily if the wing is removed
fully without remembering to disconnect. I also have a light for the
main gear which will only light when two microswitches confirm the gear
is down and locked. There is also a red for when the main gear is not
fully up or down. All this requires work but weighs next to nothing.
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: 22 September 2007 20:13
Subject: Europa-List: Outriggers - Lockin
Hi all,
Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As
the
airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing
off,
over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was
a
windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I
know
some people have fitted them in the past.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
> I also have a light for the main gear which will only light when two
> microswitches confirm the gear
> is down and locked.
Hello Nigel,
Is the configuration of these two switches such that one is activated when
the gear lever is in the down gate and fully to the right and the other
activated by the latch when fully engaged?
If so, would you have any photos of how you achieved this please? I have
been trying to work this out myself but haven't come up with anything I'm
happy with yet.
Best regards
Kingsley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Outriggers - Lockin |
>Is the configuration of these two switches such that one is activated
when
the gear lever is in the down gate and fully to the right and the other
activated by the latch when fully engaged?<
Yes
>If so, would you have any photos of how you achieved this please? I
have
been trying to work this out myself but haven't come up with anything
I'm
happy with yet.<
I will try taking a photo when I next get to the aircraft. This email is
coming from Dallas so it will be a few days before I get a chance.
Regards
Nigel
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | metcheck aviation weather summary |
| From: | "milnera" <alan_milner(at)totalise.co.uk> |
I use various "proper" aviation weather websites for flying and use metcheck for
planning golf :)
I just noticed that metcheck do an aviation summary now - worth a look.
http://www.metcheck.com/V40/UK/HOBBIES/aviation_forecast.asp?locationID=169
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiriopa performance numbers |
In a message dated 9/24/2007 2:58:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:
Would you care to share any precise speed measurements (3 GPS runs, max
take off weight, record of altitude, OAT, etc.) ?
My Jabiru buddies are getting soooo discreet when it comes to actual
performance ;-(
Hi Gilles,
Sure, I've done many, many speed measurements, especially lately with all
the flow testing I've been doing on the wings and I'm happy to share my
numbers. Mine is a trigear with an empty weight of 909lbs. The C of G is a little
over 60". Typically what I see on a 75F day is 134 kts in cruise at 2850 rpm
at 3500' burning 4.6gph according to my Grand Rapids fuel flow meter. One
recent cross country flight I saw a TAS of 148kts at 7500' at the same throttle
setting. This is with a fixed pitch Sensenich hollow carbon prop pitched as
far as I can go and still operate safely out of my 2200' strip, 700' msl, with
two on board, full fuel and baggage. I don't pay much attention to MAP,
though, since there isn't much I can to about it without being turbo normalized.
I did close off the overflow holes completely on the Jab air intake in an
effort to maximize MAP.
I have flown at 1450 lbs gross on several occasions and I'm still climbing
in the neighborhood of 1200-1300 fpm. If I back off to 2650 RPM, I cruise at
125kts and my fuel burn goes down to 3.8- 4.0 gph. I have worked hard on
getting the mixture well balanced between the cylinders by playing with the needle
jet and needle setting, as well as the float level in the carby. I''ve also
twisting the carby slightly left from vertical to even out the mixture. I
now have EGT's all within about 40F of each other and my plugs are a nice tan
color. I also am running the Iridium plugs now with great success. This engine
will idle at about 500 rpm with the Iridium plugs and still maintain about
22psi OP. I believe I have a handle on the cooling thing on all but the
hottest days, and then it's only an issue in extended climbs on the #4 cylinder.
FWIW, these are the same days my Rotax buddies also have shown cooling issues
in a variety of different applications, including the Europa. I did fit a
larger oil cooler than what came with the engine. That proved to work very well.
I never see oil temps over 190F, even on the hottest days. Fuel burn is very
comparable to the 912s, too.
I don't know what it is that these other Jabiropa builder/fliers are doing
wrong, though. I would go so far as to say that the Jabiru is superior in a
lot of ways over the 912s, particularly in terms of how smooth the engine runs
and of course, price. Contrary to the blather that has been spread about the
Jabiru/Europa combo on a variety of forums, I firmly believe the Jabiru is a
fine alternative to the Rotax 912s, provided you follow Jabiru
recommendations and undoubtedly it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the 912s on
this side of
the pond. The parts are also considerably cheaper, too. I'm really looking
forward to the day when Airmaster finally releases the new hub that fits the
Sensenich blades.
IMHO, I don't think the Jabiru factory cowl set fitted to the Europa is
going to work very well, though. I think it has to do with the "D" shape of the
intake holes. I think Andy Silvester/Suncoast has the right combo on his cowl
set with the round intake holes, but I think the head cooling ducts he sent
with the engine leave a little bit to be desired. They're made from
fiberglass and they tend to soften from engine heat. That has proven to be a problem
and one that has caused some minor maintenance issues. I'm not sure the left
duct is the right shape, either. I'm playing with Sonex style sheet metal head
ducts now, but they are proving to be a real bitch to fit their odd shape to
the 4" round inlets. My "proof of concept" version is going to have a lot of
duct tape involved! I should have a left duct fitted later today unless it's
soarable again. ;-) More testing will follow and I suspect that I will run
much cooler even on hot days once I have them fitted. If it works as well as I
anticipate, I'll whip out a final version and probably make a right side
metal duct, too.
The Sonex boys seem to have all the cooling issues licked, so that's the
reason I'm trying what they do in terms of head cooling ducts to achieve a
better balance on the CHT's on really hot days and in extended climbs. Below 90F
I never see CHT's over 280F on either side, though, and usually in the
240-250F range. Jabiru recommends 302F CHT max for extended runs and 348F is max
for short periods, like in climb. I will see 320F on #4 on a hot day in climb,
but it quickly cools to 285F or so once I establish cruise. The rest stay
below 300F.
And before anybody chimes in and tells me I don't know what I'm talking
about when it comes to the Rotax and so everybody will know I'm not pulling my
Rotax numbers out of the air, I also own an Aeromot AMT 200S Super Ximango
motorglider with a certified 912s installed swinging a Hoffman 3 position prop.
So, I do side by side comparisons regularly and I'm very familiar with the
numbers on both engines. I have about 135 hours now in the Ximango and 117 or
so
in the Europa, so plenty of time to compare numbers. FWIW, I like the 912s,
but it is very complicated compared to the Jabiru and it shakes like hell
when you first crank it up. The Jab is much easier to crank when cold. It just
roars to life after a few swings of the blades without all the shaking and no
choke is ever needed, even on cold days. I think the Jabiru is quieter, too.
We tested it with dB meter and my neighbor's lawn mower is louder than the
Jab at take off power at similar distances.
Graham, in regard to your question, I already sent some Jabiropa guys over
your way a fairly extensive overview of what I've done. Is there something
specific that they need to know? I'm happy to share and I've got tons and tons
of pictures.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Closing |
>In response to your message about closing up your wings- Sorry I
>couldn't reply on the list as I am not at home
>As I recall, my wing tops needed some trimming but more importantly
>I wish I had known about Nevilles advice on how to achieve a perfect
>bond with minimum weight ;
>
>Have a trial fit with parcel tape stopping the flox mixture ( fairly
>stiff) sticking to the top surface. Then, when it has cured ,remove
>the top, tidy up the fillet of flox mix over the ribs then stick the
>top on for good with a thin layer of relatively runny flox-redux
>over the now-perfect fit of cured flox mix filling the gap between
>the ribs and the top skin.
>
>Hope that version of Nevilles advice is clear (and accurate!)- one
>other thing I would do if bonding on the top skin again is to use
>clecos rather than weight it down - I ended up with a slight lip
>needing filling despite using a lot of weight over the square
>section tubing recommended in the manual.
>It would be worth having a search to see if what Neville wrote
>originally is around as he also had some good advice about dealing
>with the mass balance weight boxes and trailing edge which I did
>follow, but rather late in the process making it more difficult than
>it need have been - give me a call If I can be of any help.
Bill - thanks very much for your advice. I recall now that my
inspector also suggested putting in temporary self-tapping screws or
some such to hold it together rather than the weights, before we got
on to the upside-down suggestion. I'll check the archives again for
Neville's original posting.
regards
Rowland
--
| Wilma & Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/
| ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co> |
Thanks
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:55
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
There is a significant risk of invisible damage imho so I would not want
to test to more than 3 G. Check for any permanent deflection unloaded
then retest and check again that deflections remain the same.
Graham
William Daniell wrote:
> Ah thanks now I get it next question
>
> It seems at first sight a sensible thing to do rather than trying to
> do it in flight. I would be interested to know what everyone else
> thinks. Of course there is always the possibility that your pride and
> joy breaks. But probably better this than it breaks in the air
>
>
>
> Is there an instruction manual on how to go about it?
>
>
>
> Can one simulate the dive to Vne? I would assume not but perhaps some
> parts of it can be simulated in separate operations as it were??
>
>
>
> Will
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael
Grass
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 23:06
> *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> If you do the math:
>
> 2 times 1350Kg = 2700 kg or around 5940pounds
>
>
>
> This would be about the designed max +3.8 G as specified by Europa plus
> about a 15 % safety factor
>
>
>
>
>
> Just guessing
>
>
>
> Michael Grass
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* William Daniell
>
> *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:15 PM
>
> *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> Forgive my ignorance but why 1350kg?
>
> Will
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *UVTReith(at)aol.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 16:35
> *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the
> static wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside
> down). On the tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other
> side and swap that then.
>
>
>
> This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List*
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
>
*href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
12:07
11:27
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | frank wood <fswood(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiriopa performance numbers |
HI, My Europa Classis has similar performance with a Jabiru 3300 and
Prince P-Tip prop,my cooling problems are still with me, but not so
severe, after Sylvester switched engines for me.As you are aware the
later model Jabs have larger cooling fins on the heads as well as other
mods.Sylvester used my A-026 to make his cowling and test for cooling,he
indicated to me that the cooling issue appears to be solved after
testing in the central Florida climate,it certainly took him quite a
while, here in Southern Alberta (Pincher Creek) I still get minor
problems on warmer days during climb out, but it is getting better with
more time on the engine, also we are at 3900ft elev which I am certain
impedes cooling.I have not had problems with the cooling air pleniums,I
also thought of trying an airmaster C.S.prop but am not sure if it has
enough twist at the hub to force the air through and as the Prince seems
to be almost doing the job I am going to leave it for a while to see
what happens when I have 250+hrs Hope this helps
Frank S Wood C-FIYD
----- Original Message -----
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:22 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Jabiriopa performance numbers
In a message dated 9/24/2007 2:58:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:
Would you care to share any precise speed measurements (3 GPS runs,
max
take off weight, record of altitude, OAT, etc.) ?
My Jabiru buddies are getting soooo discreet when it comes to actual
performance ;-(
Hi Gilles,
Sure, I've done many, many speed measurements, especially lately with
all the flow testing I've been doing on the wings and I'm happy to share
my numbers. Mine is a trigear with an empty weight of 909lbs. The C of
G is a little over 60". Typically what I see on a 75F day is 134 kts in
cruise at 2850 rpm at 3500' burning 4.6gph according to my Grand Rapids
fuel flow meter. One recent cross country flight I saw a TAS of 148kts
at 7500' at the same throttle setting. This is with a fixed pitch
Sensenich hollow carbon prop pitched as far as I can go and still
operate safely out of my 2200' strip, 700' msl, with two on board, full
fuel and baggage. I don't pay much attention to MAP, though, since there
isn't much I can to about it without being turbo normalized. I did close
off the overflow holes completely on the Jab air intake in an effort to
maximize MAP.
I have flown at 1450 lbs gross on several occasions and I'm still
climbing in the neighborhood of 1200-1300 fpm. If I back off to 2650
RPM, I cruise at 125kts and my fuel burn goes down to 3.8- 4.0 gph. I
have worked hard on getting the mixture well balanced between the
cylinders by playing with the needle jet and needle setting, as well as
the float level in the carby. I''ve also twisting the carby slightly
left from vertical to even out the mixture. I now have EGT's all within
about 40F of each other and my plugs are a nice tan color. I also am
running the Iridium plugs now with great success. This engine will idle
at about 500 rpm with the Iridium plugs and still maintain about 22psi
OP. I believe I have a handle on the cooling thing on all but the
hottest days, and then it's only an issue in extended climbs on the #4
cylinder. FWIW, these are the same days my Rotax buddies also have shown
cooling issues in a variety of different applications, including the
Europa. I did fit a larger oil cooler than what came with the engine.
That proved to work very well. I never see oil temps over 190F, even on
the hottest days. Fuel burn is very comparable to the 912s, too.
I don't know what it is that these other Jabiropa builder/fliers are
doing wrong, though. I would go so far as to say that the Jabiru is
superior in a lot of ways over the 912s, particularly in terms of how
smooth the engine runs and of course, price. Contrary to the blather
that has been spread about the Jabiru/Europa combo on a variety of
forums, I firmly believe the Jabiru is a fine alternative to the Rotax
912s, provided you follow Jabiru recommendations and undoubtedly it's a
hell of a lot cheaper than the 912s on this side of the pond. The parts
are also considerably cheaper, too. I'm really looking forward to the
day when Airmaster finally releases the new hub that fits the Sensenich
blades.
IMHO, I don't think the Jabiru factory cowl set fitted to the Europa
is going to work very well, though. I think it has to do with the "D"
shape of the intake holes. I think Andy Silvester/Suncoast has the
right combo on his cowl set with the round intake holes, but I think the
head cooling ducts he sent with the engine leave a little bit to be
desired. They're made from fiberglass and they tend to soften from
engine heat. That has proven to be a problem and one that has caused
some minor maintenance issues. I'm not sure the left duct is the right
shape, either. I'm playing with Sonex style sheet metal head ducts now,
but they are proving to be a real bitch to fit their odd shape to the 4"
round inlets. My "proof of concept" version is going to have a lot of
duct tape involved! I should have a left duct fitted later today unless
it's soarable again. ;-) More testing will follow and I suspect that I
will run much cooler even on hot days once I have them fitted. If it
works as well as I anticipate, I'll whip out a final version and
probably make a right side metal duct, too.
The Sonex boys seem to have all the cooling issues licked, so that's
the reason I'm trying what they do in terms of head cooling ducts to
achieve a better balance on the CHT's on really hot days and in extended
climbs. Below 90F I never see CHT's over 280F on either side, though,
and usually in the 240-250F range. Jabiru recommends 302F CHT max for
extended runs and 348F is max for short periods, like in climb. I will
see 320F on #4 on a hot day in climb, but it quickly cools to 285F or so
once I establish cruise. The rest stay below 300F.
And before anybody chimes in and tells me I don't know what I'm
talking about when it comes to the Rotax and so everybody will know I'm
not pulling my Rotax numbers out of the air, I also own an Aeromot AMT
200S Super Ximango motorglider with a certified 912s installed swinging
a Hoffman 3 position prop. So, I do side by side comparisons regularly
and I'm very familiar with the numbers on both engines. I have about 135
hours now in the Ximango and 117 or so in the Europa, so plenty of time
to compare numbers. FWIW, I like the 912s, but it is very complicated
compared to the Jabiru and it shakes like hell when you first crank it
up. The Jab is much easier to crank when cold. It just roars to life
after a few swings of the blades without all the shaking and no choke is
ever needed, even on cold days. I think the Jabiru is quieter, too. We
tested it with dB meter and my neighbor's lawn mower is louder than the
Jab at take off power at similar distances.
Graham, in regard to your question, I already sent some Jabiropa guys
over your way a fairly extensive overview of what I've done. Is there
something specific that they need to know? I'm happy to share and I've
got tons and tons of pictures.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
I neglected to mention that when we closed off our gills we also opened
up the lower cowl exit area and baffled the area between the foot wells
to force air from the eye ball inlets down past the cylinders, then the
muffler, and finally out the bottom of the cowl. This dropped in-cowl
temps from 450 deg F to about 250 max and lowered oil temps in climb by
20 deg F.
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan &
Ami McFadyean
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
-->
<>
I tried that.
It made no difference to CHT, oil or water temps. But why would it;
those systems are cooled independently to what goes on under the cowl.
However, (with the 912S air shroud fitted) the cylinder wall
temperatures went up SUBSTANTIALLY. So much so that I could easily
believe that on a hot day and an extended full power climbout they would
quickly exceed the maximum permitted (190C). Fortunately, I never
experienced that configuration before finding out this.
By closing the gills, 'competition' for cowl exit area is increased.
On the other hand, the temparature of the alternator regultator didn't
seem to be affected at all.
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Seaver (terrys)
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the
engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they
add
no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator
opening
and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine and is
rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy back
there.
We carefully installed the Kim Prout main gear fairings and saw ZERO
improvement in cruise speed, which leads me to believe that the lower
cowl
exit is so turbulent that fairing in the main gear (or even retracting
it)
has little value. A magazine flight test on the Europa motor glider
reported that there was no improvement in glide performance gear up vs
gear
down, which further supports my suspicion on the cowl problems.
regards,
Terry Seaver
N135TD, XS mono-wheel with 912S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> |
Hi Terry,
[quote:ffc914ab8d="terrys at cisco.com"]
I neglected to mention that when we closed off our gills we also opened
up the lower cowl exit area and baffled the area between the foot wells
-----[/quote:ffc914ab8d]
Interesting,
How did you do that opening up, is it possible for you to attach a picture (or
2)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
| From: | "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com> |
Hi Jos,
I don't have any pictures, but I will try to describe the mod to you.
The top of the radiator duct is a sheet of aluminum (lets call it the
'separator') that splits the cowl into two areas, the lower area is for
the radiators, the top area contains everything else (engine, muffler,
etc.). The lower area has the big square inlet opening, the top area
has two eyeball inlets. In the stock condition, the lower aft exit is
used for both (ignoring the gills), strongly favoring the lower radiator
area, with just small openings in the sides for air to exit from the top
area.
Lying under the rear of the cowl, I used a 'nibbler' to remove
material from the rear of the 'separator', allowing more air from the
top area into the common exit. I probably removed about three inches
off the rear of the 'separator'. The intent was to provide an exit area
for the top portion of the cowl that was about 150% of the eyeball inlet
area.
I hope this helps,
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
Hi Terry,
[quote:ffc914ab8d="terrys at cisco.com"] I neglected to mention that
when we closed off our gills we also opened up the lower cowl exit area
and baffled the area between the foot wells
-----[/quote:ffc914ab8d]
Interesting,
How did you do that opening up, is it possible for you to attach a
picture (or 2)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stewart <europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com> |
I've done something stupid but can't work out what. I have a microair
760 radio wired through an XCOM intercom. Fired it all up for the
first time this evening. To my great surprise it all worked (almost).
Radio receives fine. Intercom works a treat. Even the music input
works. However when I press the PTT (either P1 or P2) a get a loud
buzzing in the headphones - the radio also transmits this buzzing. It
does this even without a mic plugged in. Anyone suggest what I've done?
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jabiriopa performance numbers |
> Sure, I've done many, many speed measurements, especially lately with
> all the flow testing I've been doing on the wings and I'm happy to
> share my numbers. Mine is a trigear with an empty weight of 909lbs.
> The C of G is a little over 60". Typically what I see on a 75F day is
> 134 kts in cruise at 2850 rpm at 3500' burning 4.6gph according to my
> Grand Rapids fuel flow meter. One recent cross country flight I saw a
> TAS of 148kts at 7500' at the same throttle setting.....
>
> I have flown at 1450 lbs gross on several occasions and I'm still
> climbing in the neighborhood of 1200-1300 fpm. If I back off to 2650
> RPM, I cruise at 125kts and my fuel burn goes down to 3.8- 4.0 gph. I
> have worked hard on getting the mixture well balanced between the
> cylinders by playing with the needle jet and needle setting, as well
> as the float level in the carby. I''ve also twisting the carby
> slightly left from vertical to even out the mixture. I now have EGT's
> all within about 40F of each other and my plugs are a nice tan color.
> I also am running the Iridium plugs now with great success. This
> engine will idle at about 500 rpm with the Iridium plugs and still
> maintain about 22psi OP. I believe I have a handle on the cooling
> thing on all but the hottest days, and then it's only an issue in
> extended climbs on the #4 cylinder.
John,
Thank you for providing those much interesting numbers.
Very interesting data, indeed, and I'm sure many homebuilder will be
interested in how you achieved a successful engine installation.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Tailplane integrity suggestion |
Hi George,
I aim to replace my TP5/TP6 with a one-piece aluminum tube from ACS, without
cutting into the taillplane, but by careful heat application. I have all I
need to do the job, but haven't had the time to try it out, as I'm busy
fitting glider wings. If it works I'll write it up if anyone else wants to
do the same.
Karl
>From: "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane integrity suggestion
>Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:54:42 +0300
>
>
>
>I received several responses to my post a few days ago concerning the
>binding problem I am having with my torque tube (i.e., inability to fit
>into TP6 bushing). Phil advised that early versions of TP4 and the bushes
>were ground to match each other, rather that to standard drawing
>dimensions. I tried the other TP4 I have (the one installed on the plane)
>and it fit better, actually allowing me to get the starboard tailplane all
>the way on TP4 on the shop bench and seated into the TP13 bushes.
>
>Unfortunately, I cannot get the tailplane on when TP4 is mounted on the
>fuselage, it is so tight. When I checked the port tailplane (and opened up
>the surface to reveal the TP6 bushing) it was clear on visual inspection
>that the TP6 was out of alignment by at least a millimeter. (These
>tailplanes were purchased from a charity which obtained them from an
>estate, so I do not know the provenance of the construction).
>
>I will definitely have to remove/reseat the TP6 bushing on the port
>tailplane, and probably the starboard as well.
>
>A thought occurred to me: why not have a tube machined that is one piece,
>the length from TP5 inboard to TP6 outboard and replacing both those
>bushings, instead of 2 bushes with space between them? Having the 2 bushes
>a distance apart seems to make it likely the 2 could be installed out of
>alignment, whereas a single tube/bushing could not possibly be.
>
>Any thoughts on this suggestion? If I have to remove or reset both
>bushings in both tailplanes, it seems efficient to just replace both with a
>single tube, and guarantee the integrity of the tailplane retention (at
>least with respect to the possible unbonding of TP6).
>
>Also, any suggestions on the proper technique to remove the bonded-in TP6
>and TP5 bushes without damaging the surrounding material would be
>appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>George Powell
>
>
>Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get Pimped! FREE emoticon packs from Windows Live -
http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tailplane integrity suggestion |
Beware. Aluminum has a tendency to gall, so if the fit is at all snug (which it
should be) and the torque tube is not lubricated, the tailplane may not slide
into place over the nickel plated tailplane torque tube as easily as it does
with steel TP5/TP6. Once it jams it will be rather difficult to get free.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS Tri-Gear
S/N A070
Airframe complete
>
>
>Hi George,
>
>I aim to replace my TP5/TP6 with a one-piece aluminum tube from ACS, without
>cutting into the taillplane, but by careful heat application. I have all I
>need to do the job, but haven't had the time to try it out, as I'm busy
>fitting glider wings. If it works I'll write it up if anyone else wants to
>do the same.
>
>Karl
>
>
>>From: "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com>
>>Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>>To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane integrity suggestion
>>Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:54:42 +0300
>>
>>
>>
>>I received several responses to my post a few days ago concerning the
>>binding problem I am having with my torque tube (i.e., inability to fit
>>into TP6 bushing). Phil advised that early versions of TP4 and the bushes
>>were ground to match each other, rather that to standard drawing
>>dimensions. I tried the other TP4 I have (the one installed on the plane)
>>and it fit better, actually allowing me to get the starboard tailplane all
>>the way on TP4 on the shop bench and seated into the TP13 bushes.
>>
>>Unfortunately, I cannot get the tailplane on when TP4 is mounted on the
>>fuselage, it is so tight. When I checked the port tailplane (and opened up
>>the surface to reveal the TP6 bushing) it was clear on visual inspection
>>that the TP6 was out of alignment by at least a millimeter. (These
>>tailplanes were purchased from a charity which obtained them from an
>>estate, so I do not know the provenance of the construction).
>>
>>I will definitely have to remove/reseat the TP6 bushing on the port
>>tailplane, and probably the starboard as well.
>>
>>A thought occurred to me: why not have a tube machined that is one piece,
>>the length from TP5 inboard to TP6 outboard and replacing both those
>>bushings, instead of 2 bushes with space between them? Having the 2 bushes
>>a distance apart seems to make it likely the 2 could be installed out of
>>alignment, whereas a single tube/bushing could not possibly be.
>>
>>Any thoughts on this suggestion? If I have to remove or reset both
>>bushings in both tailplanes, it seems efficient to just replace both with a
>>single tube, and guarantee the integrity of the tailplane retention (at
>>least with respect to the possible unbonding of TP6).
>>
>>Also, any suggestions on the proper technique to remove the bonded-in TP6
September 09, 2007 - September 25, 2007
Europa-Archive.digest.vol-gn