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September 25, 2007 - October 16, 2007

>>and TP5 bushes without damaging the surrounding material would be >>appreciated. >> >>Thanks, >> >>George Powell >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get Pimped! FREE emoticon packs from Windows Live - >http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jabiriopa performance numbers
John thanks a lot for that. There are three or four Jabiropas here. One I know of is very happy but the others less so. My main question is do you have any baffles to force the cooling air throught the fins, or do you rely on the pressure in the plenums? My friends are using deflectors rather than baffles which I feel is a bit imprecise. I am more familiar with the sort of baffles EZ guys use on Lyconental engines where careful baffling works well. The Jabiru agents here in UK do not seem to have much in the way of good ideas. Graham > > Graham, in regard to your question, I already sent some Jabiropa guys > over your way a fairly extensive overview of what I've done. Is there > something specific that they need to know? I'm happy to share and I've > got tons and tons of pictures. > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - Flying > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2007
From: frank wood <fswood(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Jabiriopa performance numbers
Hi to all..re Jabiru performance.To add to my prior comments on this forum.Any other Canadians may come across the same problems I had with Transport Canada (aviation MDRA).With Sylvesters cowling fitted the datum on the front of the cowling is advanced by approx 5 inches compared to a Rotax.This led to some very interesting numbers when calculating the weight and balances with max fuel two standard as speced occupants and examples of max fwd and max aft loadings when providing examples as required to fit in the envelope.Additional remarks about the Jabiru Europa combo are my empty weight is 890 lbs but I have yet to fit the wheel pants and fairings,yet my speed and fuel consumption are almost identical to Johns.I would appreciate any comments about the virtues of another prop.I spent some time resetting the Grand Rapids EFIS system but it seems to be correct now,had some problems with my Garmin GPS,a new aerial fixed that,but the Jabiru is vibration free and the sound it makes, well it is a purr that is a pleasure to behold,unlike any other it is the closest thing to poetry in motion that I know of.Canadian MDRA required that I change the clasps on the seat belts to the pull up to release type,the flex fuel hosing that is fine in the U.S.does not cut the mustard up here and in line fuel filters of the element type are an absolute no-no. Any Europa owners that are visiting out this way are welcome to contact me for a flight in the Rockies.Near us, in a valley is a particularly lofty mountain with a hole all the way through it, near the peak,my aviation pal with an RV6 swears that he could fly through it if he can tilt 90 deg first,I will send a picture to the Europa mag of the hole and mountain only. Frank S Wood C-FIYD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Jabiriopa performance numbers > <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > >> Sure, I've done many, many speed measurements, especially lately with all >> the flow testing I've been doing on the wings and I'm happy to share my >> numbers. Mine is a trigear with an empty weight of 909lbs. The C of G >> is a little over 60". Typically what I see on a 75F day is 134 kts in >> cruise at 2850 rpm at 3500' burning 4.6gph according to my Grand Rapids >> fuel flow meter. One recent cross country flight I saw a TAS of 148kts at >> 7500' at the same throttle setting..... >> I have flown at 1450 lbs gross on several occasions and I'm still >> climbing in the neighborhood of 1200-1300 fpm. If I back off to 2650 RPM, >> I cruise at 125kts and my fuel burn goes down to 3.8- 4.0 gph. I have >> worked hard on getting the mixture well balanced between the cylinders by >> playing with the needle jet and needle setting, as well as the float >> level in the carby. I''ve also twisting the carby slightly left from >> vertical to even out the mixture. I now have EGT's all within about 40F >> of each other and my plugs are a nice tan color. I also am running the >> Iridium plugs now with great success. This engine will idle at about 500 >> rpm with the Iridium plugs and still maintain about 22psi OP. I believe >> I have a handle on the cooling thing on all but the hottest days, and >> then it's only an issue in extended climbs on the #4 cylinder. > > John, > > Thank you for providing those much interesting numbers. > Very interesting data, indeed, and I'm sure many homebuilder will be > interested in how you achieved a successful engine installation. > > Best regards, > -- > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Tailplane integrity suggestion
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Hi Rob, Thanks for the warning. I have already tried that out and the tubes slide over very easily without play. I always keep the TP4's well lubricated anyway, mainly to avoid corrosion, which I had noticed on the factory demonstrators ; they are only nickel plated, anyway. Aluminum makes a far better bond with epoxies than stainless steel. My TP5's had already disbonded once from trailering. When I removed the tailplanes after a busy flying season, I noticed that there was no friction whatsoever between the pip pins and the assembly, so I don't really understand all the fuss about these mysterious forces that rip out the TP6. That accident was caused by something else entirely. Regards, Karl >From: Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com> >Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane integrity suggestion >Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:53:54 -0400 > > >Beware. Aluminum has a tendency to gall, so if the fit is at all snug >(which it should be) and the torque tube is not lubricated, the tailplane >may not slide into place over the nickel plated tailplane torque tube as >easily as it does with steel TP5/TP6. Once it jams it will be rather >difficult to get free. > >Best regards, > >Rob Housman >Irvine, California >Europa XS Tri-Gear >S/N A070 >Airframe complete > > > > > > >Hi George, > > > >I aim to replace my TP5/TP6 with a one-piece aluminum tube from ACS, >without > >cutting into the taillplane, but by careful heat application. I have all >I > >need to do the job, but haven't had the time to try it out, as I'm busy > >fitting glider wings. If it works I'll write it up if anyone else wants >to > >do the same. > > > >Karl > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com> > >>Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > >>To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > >>Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane integrity suggestion > >>Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:54:42 +0300 > >> > >> > >> > >>I received several responses to my post a few days ago concerning the > >>binding problem I am having with my torque tube (i.e., inability to fit > >>into TP6 bushing). Phil advised that early versions of TP4 and the >bushes > >>were ground to match each other, rather that to standard drawing > >>dimensions. I tried the other TP4 I have (the one installed on the >plane) > >>and it fit better, actually allowing me to get the starboard tailplane >all > >>the way on TP4 on the shop bench and seated into the TP13 bushes. > >> > >>Unfortunately, I cannot get the tailplane on when TP4 is mounted on the > >>fuselage, it is so tight. When I checked the port tailplane (and opened >up > >>the surface to reveal the TP6 bushing) it was clear on visual inspection > >>that the TP6 was out of alignment by at least a millimeter. (These > >>tailplanes were purchased from a charity which obtained them from an > >>estate, so I do not know the provenance of the construction). > >> > >>I will definitely have to remove/reseat the TP6 bushing on the port > >>tailplane, and probably the starboard as well. > >> > >>A thought occurred to me: why not have a tube machined that is one >piece, > >>the length from TP5 inboard to TP6 outboard and replacing both those > >>bushings, instead of 2 bushes with space between them? Having the 2 >bushes > >>a distance apart seems to make it likely the 2 could be installed out of > >>alignment, whereas a single tube/bushing could not possibly be. > >> > >>Any thoughts on this suggestion? If I have to remove or reset both > >>bushings in both tailplanes, it seems efficient to just replace both >with a > >>single tube, and guarantee the integrity of the tailplane retention (at > >>least with respect to the possible unbonding of TP6). > >> > >>Also, any suggestions on the proper technique to remove the bonded-in >TP6 > >>and TP5 bushes without damaging the surrounding material would be > >>appreciated. > >> > >>Thanks, > >> > >>George Powell > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Get Pimped! FREE emoticon packs from Windows Live - > >http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Got a favourite clothes shop, bar or restaurant? Share your local knowledge http://www.backofmyhand.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Pottorff" <Richard_Pottorff(at)msn.com>
Subject: More on VNE
Date: Sep 24, 2007
Here's a link to another VNE article. It also explains that just because Vne is a red line on an ASI that it is not a constant speed, unvarying with altitude. In fact, it decrease roughly 1.5% per 1000 feet of altitude. Stall speed changes with the airplane's load, and yet the stall speeds are marked on the ASI. http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf pdf/hp_limts.pdf> By the way, Wikipedia doesn't vouch for the information contained on its site, so its meaningless to me as far as trying to prove assertions. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JohnDHeykoop(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411)
In a message dated 23/09/2007 18:04:27 GMT Standard Time, carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk writes: Hi Bob, I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades. What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance. Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller. We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only other one I was aware of. Carl Pattinson G_LABS PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation. Carl & others interested in Woodcomp Scimitar blades for the monowheel Europa I too was briefly interested in the Woodcomp propeller with scimitar blades, but have now bought an Airmaster propeller. In the UK the 65" (1650mm) diameter of the Woodcomp scimitar blades is an issue, the normal maximum for the monowheel Europa being 64" (1625mm). William Mills had scimitar blades fitted to his mono, but according to the PFA his propeller was only 63" . I suppose William's propeller must have been an early prototype. The PFA will only allow you to fit a propeller of more than 64" diameter if you can show compliance with CS-VLA925. In order to do that you will have to demonstrate that the ground clearance from the propeller tip, with the aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat tyre, is at least 230mm. You don't actually have to deflate the tyre, for you can simply subtract the distance from the rim to the ground from your ground clearance measurement. If you think the scimitar blades are worth all this hassle it would be prudent to make sure that you are going to get at least 230mm ground clearance before you place an order. That means doing the measurements twice, once before you order the propeller, and the second time once you have the scimitar blades fitted. You can, of course, buy the Woodcomp propeller with standard blades. If you go this route, get one with the Smart Avionics controller. Woodcomp know how to make good propellers, but their controller has a poor reputation. Hope this helps John Europa XS monowheel G-JHKP (Rotax 912S + Airmaster CS, 2200 build hours todate - hopefully I will be flying next summer) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411)
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Hi John, all, Did you ask Woodcomp for the prop in 1625mm? I ordered my Woodcomp Prop with Scimitar blades about a year ago with 1625 mm and got what I have ordered. Regards Michael Grass A266 Trigear, 914, Wooodcomp SR3000 ----- Original Message ----- From: JohnDHeykoop(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:19 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) In a message dated 23/09/2007 18:04:27 GMT Standard Time, carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk writes: Hi Bob, I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades. What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance. Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller. We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only other one I was aware of. Carl Pattinson G_LABS PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation. Carl & others interested in Woodcomp Scimitar blades for the monowheel Europa I too was briefly interested in the Woodcomp propeller with scimitar blades, but have now bought an Airmaster propeller. In the UK the 65" (1650mm) diameter of the Woodcomp scimitar blades is an issue, the normal maximum for the monowheel Europa being 64" (1625mm). William Mills had scimitar blades fitted to his mono, but according to the PFA his propeller was only 63" . I suppose William's propeller must have been an early prototype. The PFA will only allow you to fit a propeller of more than 64" diameter if you can show compliance with CS-VLA925. In order to do that you will have to demonstrate that the ground clearance from the propeller tip, with the aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat tyre, is at least 230mm. You don't actually have to deflate the tyre, for you can simply subtract the distance from the rim to the ground from your ground clearance measurement. If you think the scimitar blades are worth all this hassle it would be prudent to make sure that you are going to get at least 230mm ground clearance before you place an order. That means doing the measurements twice, once before you order the propeller, and the second time once you have the scimitar blades fitted. You can, of course, buy the Woodcomp propeller with standard blades. If you go this route, get one with the Smart Avionics controller. Woodcomp know how to make good propellers, but their controller has a poor reputation. Hope this helps John Europa XS monowheel G-JHKP (Rotax 912S + Airmaster CS, 2200 build hours todate - hopefully I will be flying next summer) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_041
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Same here, more clearance then with the Airmaster-Warpdrive. it's a non-issue. It's also lighter, smoother, comes assembled and balanced. With the Smart Avionics controller so easy, one would forget it's there. The only problem is the price, for some people it is difficult to accept that price is not always the same as value. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JohnDHeykoop(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411)
In a message dated 25/09/2007 09:38:19 GMT Standard Time, M.Grass(at)comcast.net writes: Hi John, all, Did you ask Woodcomp for the prop in 1625mm? I ordered my Woodcomp Prop with Scimitar blades about a year ago with 1625 mm and got what I have ordered. Regards Michael Grass A266 Trigear, 914, Wooodcomp SR3000 Hi Michael, all No I did not. Their UK agent said that the prop could only be supplied in 1650mm diameter. Shows you how wrong he was. And teaches me not to rely on agents. Regards John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411)
From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2007
G-NEAT is fitted with a scimitar bladed SR3000. The documentation supplied by Woodcomp states the diameter to be 1625mm (aka 64"). Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136286#136286 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: Re: More on VNE
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Thats why this part of the flight envelope is generally called coffin corner cause you go any slower you stall, go any faster you break the plane, have a look at the service envelope charts for a piper or cessna etc you will see what i mean -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of europa flugzeug fabrik Sent: Monday, 24 September 2007 3:32 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S. Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the ASI. If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall speed? Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910 1:27 PM 1:27 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2007
From: Kenneth Whiteley <ksw(at)kenwhit.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: radio
In message <77636CA4-F5E7-437E-8A7F-E59A42297F13(at)pstewart.f2s.com>, Paul Stewart writes > >I've done something stupid but can't work out what. I have a microair >760 radio wired through an XCOM intercom. Fired it all up for the >first time this evening. To my great surprise it all worked (almost). >Radio receives fine. Intercom works a treat. Even the music input >works. However when I press the PTT (either P1 or P2) a get a loud >buzzing in the headphones - the radio also transmits this buzzing. It >does this even without a mic plugged in. Anyone suggest what I've done? > It sounds as though the microphone is not connected into the Microair. The buzzing would be due to the open circuit on the microphone input to the transmitter. Regards Ken Whiteley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net>
Subject: Re: Monowheel speed kit
Date: Sep 24, 2007
> Lying under the rear of the cowl, I used a 'nibbler' to remove > material from the rear of the 'separator', allowing more air from the > top area into the common exit. I probably removed about three inches > off the rear of the 'separator'. Hi Terry, I am in the middle of fighting this same cooling issue but I have a tri-gear. I'm sure I need more air coming out the bottom as so, but help me understand what a nibbler is. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 84 hours and climbing slowly. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:32 AM > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit > > > Hi Terry, > > [quote:ffc914ab8d="terrys at cisco.com"] I neglected to mention that > when we closed off our gills we also opened up the lower cowl exit area > and baffled the area between the foot wells > > -----[/quote:ffc914ab8d] > Interesting, > How did you do that opening up, is it possible for you to attach a > picture (or 2) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Subject: Re:Jabiropa performance
In a message dated 9/25/2007 2:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: Thank you for providing those much interesting numbers. Very interesting data, indeed, and I'm sure many homebuilder will be interested in how you achieved a successful engine installation. Hi Gilles, You're quite welcome. It's really no mystery as to how to arrive at a successful engine installation: Pay attention to the folks who are successful and ignore the folks who aren't. The real trick is being able to wade through those spreading minutia and get to those who are real achievers and who have had real success and mimic what they did. That can be a tough row to hoe, especially considering the millions of soap boxes out there, courtesy of the Internet. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: More on VNE
From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)oh.rr.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Why is any technical article found on the internet authoritative? Why wouldn't the FAA care enough to fix their Regs? People die when airplanes break apart. Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136304#136304 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: drag issues and cowl suggestion
Date: Sep 25, 2007
This may seem like an odd suggestion but has anyone considered a setup something simmilar to the air intake on the P51 mustang, but instead of air intake, use it for housing of radiators. Clearly the design worked ok given the performance of the p51, then the cowl could be steamlined as much as possible. just a thought. Sure would look cool IMHO. craig 1:27 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Subject: Jabiropa performance
In a message dated 9/25/2007 2:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: thanks a lot for that. There are three or four Jabiropas here. One I know of is very happy but the others less so. My main question is do you have any baffles to force the cooling air throught the fins, or do you rely on the pressure in the plenums? My friends are using deflectors rather than baffles which I feel is a bit imprecise. I am more familiar with the sort of baffles EZ guys use on Lyconental engines where careful baffling works well. The Jabiru agents here in UK do not seem to have much in the way of good ideas. Hello Graham, My 3300 is one of the newer ones with the larger head cooling fins, but just before they switched to hydraulic lifters.(S/N 33A756 or #756) The engine came with fiberglass ducts of unknown origin, IOW, not Jabiru factory ducts, that fit over the top of the cylinders. I'm pretty sure Andy had the same guy who made the cowls make the ducts, but I've not verified that to be fact. Two, round 4" aluminum intake rings are captured by the cowl (similar to a Lancair) and serve to direct air into the ducts. I used 3mm rubber sheet to make a transition from the ring to the duct. This rubber helps damp vibration between the cowl and the engine and allows the two to move independently of each other. The two 4" rings together give me 25 square inches of intake and that should be more than enough for adequate cooling and it is has shown to be adequate on all but the hottest days. I only really see one cylinder that gets a bit hot in climb above 95F ambient temperature and it's still 30F below redline. I do have internal baffling to direct air over the center cylinders, but it is very subtle, maybe 3 mm tall on the inside top of the duct, parallel to the cylinder. Small changes in the height of these baffles make huge differences in CHT's. The height of the baffle is determined by trial and error. I'd start at about 5-7mm and whittle it down from there until a balance is achieved. You could make an internal baffle with successive layers of duct tape to determine the height, then replace it with either flox or a flat fiberglass piece cut to the shape of the inside of the baffle, then flox that into place. Initially, I was told to start with 1 cm high baffles, but it only took one short flight to realize that was way too much for my installation. I've been doing some manometer testing on the pressure differential between the inside of the cowl and the inside of the duct and it has left me thinking that my left duct just isn't the right shape. Using Jabiru's manometer testing method, my results have been completely contradictory to what Jabiru says it takes for adequate cooling. So, I'm testing a new left side Sonex styled sheet metal duct today. I'll let everybody know if it works. If it does work, I'm going to do some manometer testing on it and get some hard numbers to play with in terms of what it really takes to make the left side run cool. Film at 11:00PM...... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2007
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Monowheel speed kit
Jeff, A nibbler is a hand held tool, usually air powered, which contains a small punch and anvil. When used, it "nibbles" away at the aluminum, creating small crescent-shaped bits as it eats through the material. It's used to cut out areas that would be difficult to get to with shears, or other tools... Jeff - Baby Blue 329 hrs JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > > >> Lying under the rear of the cowl, I used a 'nibbler' to remove >> material from the rear of the 'separator', allowing more air from the >> top area into the common exit. I probably removed about three inches >> off the rear of the 'separator'. > > Hi Terry, > I am in the middle of fighting this same cooling issue but I have a > tri-gear. I'm sure I need more air coming out the bottom as so, but > help me understand what a nibbler is. > Regards, > Jeff R. > A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 84 hours and climbing slowly. > > >> Terry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok >> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:32 AM >> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit >> >> >> Hi Terry, >> >> [quote:ffc914ab8d="terrys at cisco.com"] I neglected to mention that >> when we closed off our gills we also opened up the lower cowl exit area >> and baffled the area between the foot wells >> >> -----[/quote:ffc914ab8d] >> Interesting, >> How did you do that opening up, is it possible for you to attach a >> picture (or 2) >> >> Regards, >> >> Jos Okhuijsen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Trevpond(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 25, 2007
Subject: Re: drag issues and cowl suggestion
Hi Craig, I had the "P51" type radiator on my ARV Super2 and it proved to be one of the biggest weaknesses on the whole aircraft. It was OK in the air but on the ground it proved to be a nightmare as there was no airflow unless there was a strong wind on the nose. When I was in a queue when leaving Cranfield, I had to park immediately behind a twin to keep the temperatures down! regards Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Monowheel speed kit
Date: Sep 25, 2007
From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com>
The nibbler is a small metal cutting tool available at Radio Shack, for example (Google 'Radio Shack nibbler'). It is a convenient way to remove small bits of metal from the cooling duct without removing it. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEFF ROBERTS Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit > Lying under the rear of the cowl, I used a 'nibbler' to remove > material from the rear of the 'separator', allowing more air from the > top area into the common exit. I probably removed about three inches > off the rear of the 'separator'. Hi Terry, I am in the middle of fighting this same cooling issue but I have a tri-gear. I'm sure I need more air coming out the bottom as so, but help me understand what a nibbler is. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 84 hours and climbing slowly. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:32 AM > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit > > > Hi Terry, > > [quote:ffc914ab8d="terrys at cisco.com"] I neglected to mention that > when we closed off our gills we also opened up the lower cowl exit > area and baffled the area between the foot wells > > -----[/quote:ffc914ab8d] > Interesting, > How did you do that opening up, is it possible for you to attach a > picture (or 2) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jabiropa performance
John thanks again! btw, why not use an ASI connected wrong way round to measure the pressure differential inside the cowl, easier and more convenient than flying with water filled tubes in the cockpit? There is a table somewhere of indicated airspeed versus delta P regards Graham T > > I've been doing some manometer testing on the pressure differential > between the inside of the cowl and the inside of the duct and it has > left me thinking that my left duct just isn't the right shape. Using > Jabiru's manometer testing method, my results have been > completely contradictory to what Jabiru says it takes for adequate > cooling. > Regards, > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David DeFord" <davedeford(at)comcast.net>
Subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Date: Sep 25, 2007
We are just about ready for paint on our motorglider wings, and we have a few questions for other motorglider operators. 1. What are the expected stall speeds with the long wings, what are Vno and Va, and what is the limiting speed for airbrake extension (if any)? 2. How have people marked their airspeed indicators to show values for both short wings and long wings? Two concentric sets of arcs? 3. What are the C.G. limits with long wins? 4. Any hints for convincing the FAA to grant registration in two categories (ASEL and self-launch glider), depending on which wings are installed? We have been flying with the short wings for 6 years, so a change from the existing category and operating limitations will be required. 5. Keeping potential controversy for last, how does Vne vary with altitude? (The Diamond Extreme in which Terry and I recently got our self-launch glider ratings has a placard which derates Vne from the marked value at 6500 feet by exactly the same ratios as shown in the table for the Pipistrel Sinus, referenced in the article recently posted by Richard Pottorff.) Thanks. Dave DeFord N135TD ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Woodcomp Prop on Monowheel
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2007
It seems that the PFA is unlikely to agree to the Scimitar blade prop at 1650mm and possibly even the Straight at 1625 as they are both over the the 1575mm of the original prop. However there are at least two mono Europas operating in the uk currently (this includes Williams plane). I am aware of the rumour that Williams prop was undersize. I spoke to the factory about the possibility of raising the fuselage height by packing out the rubber suspension block with plywood spacers but they werent very keen. Roger seemed to think that this would overstress the undercarriage somehow. Note- I am not talking about increasing the distance between the block support plates but merely taking up the space which occurr's when the aircraft is loaded. On our aircraft there is about 1cm of slack when the plane is on the ground. Packing out the gap would probably increase the distance of the prop from the ground by several inches. It would also increase the deck angle but that wouldnt cause a problem IMHO. So what am I missing here ? Carl Pattinson G-LABS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136503#136503 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp Prop on Monowheel
From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Having discussed this topic with Andy Draper this year I think that you will find that the PFA are happy for the 1625mm prop to be fitted to XS monos and tri-gears and to classic tri-gears. Andy also thought that it would probably be possible to fit it to classic monos as well but that would require someone fitting one and taking the measurements to see if the clearances were acceptable. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136511#136511 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
Date: Sep 26, 2007
----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C8004E.ADAC2BD0-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Hi Guys I think I may have got this wrong when I tried to send it a few mins. Ago, so here goes a second time. If, like me you feel this is one step too far . (I can hear Bob Harrison applauding from here). Then you may wish to sign up. It=92s a really quick and simple process. What do you think? I=92m sure our US friends must be laughing there heads off at this one! Kind Regards Alan Subject: [UKaerobatics] Red Arrows & the Olymipics... It takes 2-seconds to submit your signature to the petition; it is a reputable, fully registered, petition site The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the 2012 London Olympics because they are deemed "too British". Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might be "offensive" to other countries taking part in the Games. The display team have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department of Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team "too militaristically British". Red Arrows pilots were said to be "outraged", as they had hoped to put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had never been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being "too British" is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain. The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas trade, as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world. The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly spectacular. It is to be hoped that common sense prevails. If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link below=85 HYPERLINK "http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012" \nhttp://petitions.-pm.gov.uk/-RedArrows2012/-?ref=redArrows20-12 25/09/2007 08:02 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Subject: Re: ASI vs. Manometer
In a message dated 9/26/2007 2:58:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: thanks again! btw, why not use an ASI connected wrong way round to measure the pressure differential inside the cowl, easier and more convenient than flying with water filled tubes in the cockpit? There is a table somewhere of indicated airspeed versus delta P Hey Graham, Somebody posted a conversion table of airspeed to inches of water column on the Yahoo Jabiru list a while back. I have that table, but I don't have a spare ASI that works to try it. I've been testing with a "calibrated" manometer I got from a friend who owns a heating and air conditioning supply house. These manometers list for over $50, but he only wanted $12, so I couldn't resist. The testing I've been doing with the manometer has all been done in the morning when it's smooth. So, no real issues with water filled tubes in the cockpit. I have the manometer secured with masking tape to the panel, so no problems yet with it moving around and making a mess. I also have the manometer set up so that I can switch between the right and left intakes by switching the feed tubes and thereby compare the results. The static source is common to both ducts. I sure hope I don't make a mess! The wife would kill me for sure if I spilled green dyed water on the upholstery she made for N245E! I think the courts would rule that grounds for "justifiable homicide" after she fought my old sewing machine for 3 weeks before I finally broke down and bought a new machine so she could finish the seat cushions. Death would surely be slow and painful if I stain that upholstery! I did two brief flight tests with the Sonex duct yesterday and it was terrible, i.e, much, much worse than what I have been seeing with the old, original left duct, but I don't necessarily think at this point it's the Sonex duct's fault. I played with a fan and a piece of sewing thread tied to a piece of welding rod in front of the ducts near the intake and found some rather interesting behavior in the airflow around the left intake. I used a piece of welding rod to hold a 6" piece of thread in the airflow of the fan so I could keep my hands and arms out of the way and not skew the results. As the thread approaches the center of the left intake hole the intake rejects the thread and the thread actually blows away from the intake duct and towards the fan! This left me puzzled, so I first made a couple of vortex generators out of some thin, scrap aluminum and taped them on the outside of the cowl near the intake where I seemed to have a particularly low pressure area that was sucking the thread out of the intake. The thread showed remarkable improvement in flow around the intake hole with the vortex generators installed and I observed much less tendency for the intake to reject the thread. I removed the vortex generators and put zigzag tape in various places around the intake and tested it again and again with the thread and even more improvement in flow was observed. I found what I think is a sweet spot for the zigzag tape and clearly it is helping the flow enter the duct. Whether or not this stays constant at flying speeds remains to be seen, but I don't know of any reason why it wouldn't. Unfortunately, I broke one of my CHT rings when I had to remove the plugs to get the Sonex duct off and it'll be Friday before I can get a replacement and do a test flight. It's going to be a long two days waiting, for sure. I'm thinking I had a "Eureka" moment yesterday. Flight testing will ultimately reveal whether I'm onto something or not. Something is causing a high pressure bubble to form just outside the mouth of the intake and the thread is showing that bubble is preventing air flow from entering the intake. In fact, it appears to be rejecting flow without the zigzag or vortex generators on about half the diameter of the intake on the left, particularly on the outboard edge. The thread is essentially showing me exactly what my manometer testing has shown, duct pressure is not an indication of flow, but rather it is an indication of the absence of flow. The right side does not show this tendency to reject the thread at all, even though the intakes are identical, mirror images in shape and the aluminum intake rings are identical in size. Some of this almost certainly has to do with the direction of rotation of the prop, or in this case the fan. Beyond that, why this rejection occurs on one side and not the other is a real mystery. In fact, the right side sucks the thread into the hole from more than an inch away laterally. The thread also shows good laminar flow all around the outside of the intake on both sides, but even with no internal duct installed, the left intake hole rejects my thread unless I have the vortex generators installed on the outside of the cowl near the intake or the zigzag tape along the lip of the intake. I think I've found the missing piece to the puzzle. I'll let ya'll know more once I've had a chance to do some flight testing on Friday or Saturday. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Grounded until Friday ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Al Stills" <astills(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: ASI vs. Manometer
Date: Sep 26, 2007
John, I'm following your testing with baited interest as I was thing of the Sonex style duct also. I've gotten my temps within limits but haven't been able to balance them as I would like. Al Stills N625AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2007
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
Gents, I'd be laughing if it weren't so sad. Just another example of political correctness gone mad. Send your guys over here to perform. Our PC crowd hasn't quite crammed this pseudo-niceness that far down our throats so we can enjoy the beauty and splendor of any and all aerial performers, military or otherwise. I bet they'd be a real hit at Oshkosh in 2012 and every year between now and 2012. May we colonials over here on the west side of the big pond sign your petition? Check six, Bob Borger On Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 10:04AM, "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> wrote: >Hi Guys > > > >I think I may have got this wrong when I tried to send it a few mins. Ago, >so here goes a second time. If, like me you feel this is one step too far . >(I can hear Bob Harrison applauding from here). Then you may wish to sign >up. It?s a really quick and simple process. > >What do you think? I?m sure our US friends must be laughing there heads off >at this one! > >Kind Regards > > > >Alan > > > > > > > >Subject: [UKaerobatics] Red Arrows & the Olymipics... > > > >It takes 2-seconds to submit your signature to the petition; it is a >reputable, fully registered, petition site > > > >The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the 2012 >London Olympics because they are deemed "too British". > >Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might be >"offensive" to other countries taking part in the Games. The display team >have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department of >Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team "too militaristically >British". Red Arrows pilots were said to be "outraged", as they had hoped to >put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had never >been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being "too >British" is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain. > >The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas trade, >as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world. > >The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was >announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly >spectacular. > >It is to be hoped that common sense prevails. > >If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link below? > > HYPERLINK "http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012" >\nhttp://petitions.-pm.gov.uk/-RedArrows2012/-?ref=redArrows20-12 > > >25/09/2007 >08:02 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Those Red Arrow boys really can fly - I saw their fabulous flying couple of year ago and I have RA -poster here in my work shop. It is art and makes people happy. (I do have to add here: in fact my test pilot Lt. Col. Jyrki Laukkanen has teached them) I sign at once. Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Burrows To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! Hi Guys I think I may have got this wrong when I tried to send it a few mins. Ago, so here goes a second time. If, like me you feel this is one step too far . (I can hear Bob Harrison applauding from here). Then you may wish to sign up. It=92s a really quick and simple process. What do you think? I=92m sure our US friends must be laughing there heads off at this one! Kind Regards Alan Subject: [UKaerobatics] Red Arrows & the Olymipics... It takes 2-seconds to submit your signature to the petition; it is a reputable, fully registered, petition site The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the 2012 London Olympics because they are deemed "too British". Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might be "offensive" to other countries taking part in the Games. The display team have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department of Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team "too militaristically British". Red Arrows pilots were said to be "outraged", as they had hoped to put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had never been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being "too British" is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain. The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas trade, as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world. The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly spectacular. It is to be hoped that common sense prevails. If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link below=85 http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012 25/09/2007 08:02 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Trevpond(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Subject: Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
It's a bloody disgrace!! The government is so busy giving our Country away and of course our rights at the same time that it will soon be illegal to celebrate Christmas or Easter in case we offend our "multicultural" Society. Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Subject: Jabiropa cooling
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
> Something is causing a high pressure bubble to form just outside the > mouth of the-intake and the thread is showing that bubble > is-preventing air-flow from entering the intake. In fact, it appears > to be rejecting flow without the zigzag or vortex generators on about > half the-diameter-of the intake on the left, particularly on the > outboard edge.- John, As I look at your pix posted Mar. 11 (the one w/ you giving the "thumbs up"), I'm noticing the cowling shape immediately below the 4" inlet. It may just be a function of the light in the pix but it appears that the cowl shape forms something of a ramp for air moving vertically from the prop rotation. Could this be a factor in creating the high pressure bubble you speak of? Might it be that the cowl shape tends to sweep air vertically across the inlet which interferes with airflow into the inlet? In comparing the two inlets, the portion of your cowl below the left inlet (appearing as bright white in your pix) would be the principal difference in the cowling geometry which the air from the propeller "sees" as it rotates as it approaches the inlets left and right. I'm wondering if a concentric lip projecting forward of the inlet...say maybe as much as an inch (?)...could act in such a way as to divert that vertically rising air around the inlet, reducing pressure in front of the inlet, and increasing flow into your duct...? (I'm aware that you've already tweaked the cowling geometry around the inlets.) At the very least, it appears to me that it would lessen the degree to which prop rotation influences flow into the inlets. Just a thought... Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bryan allsop <bryanallsop(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Woodcomp Scimitar Props
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Hi Folks. From personal experience, I can assure you that the PFA will not approve Woodcomp blades bigger than 1625 mm diameter on a mono. Whilst corr esponding on this subject, I was asked by Conrad Beale to convey the messag e that William's wife would like to dispose of his Scimitar prop ( in excel lent condition, and not installed at the time of the accident), together wi th his trailer etc. I pass this information on in good faith. Bryan Allsop _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista E ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
Date: Sep 26, 2007
No doubt the Horse Guards will be sent on leave so that they dont offend the foreign tourists. If the implications werent so bloody serious it would be funny - it isnt. Now we have to be ashamed of who we are. The only people who should be ashamed are the government and beaurocratic apologists who condone this kind of political correctness. We should lock em all up in the Tower of London. Not so long ago it would be regarded as treason - penalty death! ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Burrows To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! Hi Guys I think I may have got this wrong when I tried to send it a few mins. Ago, so here goes a second time. If, like me you feel this is one step too far . (I can hear Bob Harrison applauding from here). Then you may wish to sign up. It=92s a really quick and simple process. What do you think? I=92m sure our US friends must be laughing there heads off at this one! Kind Regards Alan Subject: [UKaerobatics] Red Arrows & the Olymipics... It takes 2-seconds to submit your signature to the petition; it is a reputable, fully registered, petition site The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the 2012 London Olympics because they are deemed "too British". Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might be "offensive" to other countries taking part in the Games. The display team have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department of Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team "too militaristically British". Red Arrows pilots were said to be "outraged", as they had hoped to put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had never been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being "too British" is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain. The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas trade, as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world. The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly spectacular. It is to be hoped that common sense prevails. If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link below=85 http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012 25/09/2007 08:02 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
From: "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net>
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Thanks for the link to the petition Alan, Steve Vestuti #573 G-CEBV Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Europa List" <n914va(at)bvunet.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
Date: Sep 26, 2007
This same political correctness is sweeping the USA as well. Very similar events in fact. Since when should something as proud and noble as the US and British militaries be something to be hidden from the rest of the world in shame. The shame lies with the PC crowd and their lack of cahones. Then I guess that we can't lay off all the blame when we quietly stand by and let the PC's get away with their stupidity. What's the answer mates? Vaughn ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Pattinson To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! No doubt the Horse Guards will be sent on leave so that they dont offend the foreign tourists. If the implications werent so bloody serious it would be funny - it isnt. Now we have to be ashamed of who we are. The only people who should be ashamed are the government and beaurocratic apologists who condone this kind of political correctness. We should lock em all up in the Tower of London. Not so long ago it would be regarded as treason - penalty death! ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Burrows To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:42 PM Subject: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! Hi Guys I think I may have got this wrong when I tried to send it a few mins. Ago, so here goes a second time. If, like me you feel this is one step too far . (I can hear Bob Harrison applauding from here). Then you may wish to sign up. It=92s a really quick and simple process. What do you think? I=92m sure our US friends must be laughing there heads off at this one! Kind Regards Alan Subject: [UKaerobatics] Red Arrows & the Olymipics... It takes 2-seconds to submit your signature to the petition; it is a reputable, fully registered, petition site The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the 2012 London Olympics because they are deemed "too British". Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might be "offensive" to other countries taking part in the Games. The display team have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department of Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team "too militaristically British". Red Arrows pilots were said to be "outraged", as they had hoped to put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had never been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being "too British" is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain. The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas trade, as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world. The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly spectacular. It is to be hoped that common sense prevails. If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link below=85 http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012 25/09/2007 08:02 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paul Stewart <europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com>
Subject: XCOM and stall warner
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Has anyone used the factory stall warner to sound through and intercom (more specifically the XCOM one) rather than the little horn supplied?. If so I'd be interested in how. Regards Paul G-GIDY ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Source for FCFL 5mm foam?
From: "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2007
I was not supplied the 5mm brown PVC foam (Part FCFL) used in building the flaps. Does anyone know of a source in the US for this material? I couldn't find anything in the Wicks or Aircraft Spruce catalogs. Thanks for the help. George Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Source for FCFL 5mm foam?
George you could use Lastafoam. It isn't PVC but polyurethane, but if the density is similar it should be OK. Graham G&TPowell wrote: > > I was not supplied the 5mm brown PVC foam (Part FCFL) used in building the flaps. Does anyone know of a source in the US for this material? I couldn't find anything in the Wicks or Aircraft Spruce catalogs. > > Thanks for the help. > > George > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2007
Subject: Re: Source for FCFL 5mm foam?
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
> Does anyone know of a source in the US for this material? I got some .125" Last-A-Foam from General Plastics Manufacturing Co. 4810 Burlington Way Tacoma, WA 98409 tel: 253-473-5000 www.generalplastics.com -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon(at)sent.com>
Subject: XCOM and stall warner
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Paul. I have the same setup. i.e. Microair radio and Xcom intercom with factory stall warner. I wired the stall warner before getting the intercom and have not bothered wiring it through the Xcom. The 'little' horn does make a very lound and piercing noise. Intalled as recommended, above your head, I have absolutely no problems hearing it even with headsets on. Also, if you switch the intercom off for any reason, you can not hear any auxiliary equipment wired thereto. I have one of Mark Burton's Smart-ASS installed and can't hear it when the intercom is off. Regards, Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Stewart Sent: 26 September 2007 22:09 Subject: Europa-List: XCOM and stall warner Has anyone used the factory stall warner to sound through and intercom (more specifically the XCOM one) rather than the little horn supplied?. If so I'd be interested in how. Regards Paul G-GIDY 26/09/2007 12:12 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: the American way
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Well done Fred. I was having a bad day and your message put a smile on my face. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Subject: Jabiropa cooling
In a message dated 9/27/2007 2:59:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: I'm wondering if a concentric lip projecting forward of the inlet...say maybe as much as an inch (?)...could act in such a way as to divert that vertically rising air around the inlet, reducing pressure in front of the inlet, and increasing flow into your duct...? (I'm aware that you've already tweaked the cowling geometry around the inlets.) Hey Fred, I tried using a thin mylar strip inside the intake hole to achieve exactly what you mention and it had no effect. If anything it made it worse. I think what is happening is a pressure wave is setting up in front of the hole. It's caused by the spherical shape of the cowl intake and it's not at all dissimilar to what happens when a smooth sphere is moved through a fluid. Turbulating the flow on the edge of the sphere and the intake, much like dimples on a golf ball, zigzag tape or vortex generators, should significantly alter the airflow in a positive direction. I've thought about dimpling the round parts of both intake areas like a golf ball in lieu of the zigzag tape. That would make for an "interesting" look, wouldn't it? It's tough to get the zigzag tape to lay flat in a curve like that. I might wind up making the zigzag turbulator out of paint. I think I can make a mold of sorts out of several layers of masking tape, then cut a ring out with pinking shears, then shoot over it. The result should be the same zigzag pattern, only made from paint. We've done this sort of thing before on gliders, but never in a circle. The real puzzle is why the right side doesn't exhibit the same flow characteristics as the left. The right side sucks the string in with no turbulation, while the left side rejects the string on the outboard half of the intake ring unless the flow is turbulated as the air approaches the intake hole. I've placed the fan in such a way as to simulate the flow on the right side, but on the left, i.e., fan blade rising relative to the hole, as opposed to falling, and it made no difference. Granted, this is considerably lower flow than with the engine running at flight velocities, but I think the simulation should be valid. I would think the pressure wave would only be stronger at higher velocities. The flow behind the intakes above the top cowl, along the sides of the cowl, and down the front of the cowl is very laminar, in fact a lot more laminar than I expected. The only place I've seen the flow break is as it gets to the junction of the windshield. I'm going to tuft that area in front of the windshield on the top cowl prior to the next flight so I can see what is going on there, too. There might be an advantage to be gained by a few well placed vortex generators in that area. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Grounded until Friday ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Dave, As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings. It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads on how to fill out the forms. Notes: Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider. Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your fly-off with both wings. They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly are considered and may be re-imposed). You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating. I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny. I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and print. All the numbers are there. I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a heartbeat. As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so equipped. In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct, the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.) CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch). I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder. My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults: Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS. Vne 129 KIAS Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!) No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine Vmanuever. RE G limit You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to wing/airframe stress. I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable. STRUCTURAL LIMIT: +3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs. +3.5g / -1.5g at 1450 lbs. +3.3g/-1.3 at 1550 lbs. The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning to for verification. Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get your attention. The monowheel squats even more. Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it. Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our personal QC. The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing them as hard as they can. As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test pilots together. It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is really a mach limit). Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform determine the effects of Mach crit. Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure) and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic pressure) and mach effects period. The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen, The T-33 by the mach crit. The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and pressure) You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors deemed important. Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you! There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his aircraft or its operation. All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but work within the system to make the product better. And all the manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as this, and I can't afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh in. Looks like I will be working late tonight. I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration. Off my soapbox now, Bud Yerly Custom Flight 813 653 4989 www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/> ----- Original Message ----- From: David DeFord<mailto:davedeford(at)comcast.net> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:59 PM Subject: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration > We are just about ready for paint on our motorglider wings, and we have a few questions for other motorglider operators. 1. What are the expected stall speeds with the long wings, what are Vno and Va, and what is the limiting speed for airbrake extension (if any)? 2. How have people marked their airspeed indicators to show values for both short wings and long wings? Two concentric sets of arcs? 3. What are the C.G. limits with long wins? 4. Any hints for convincing the FAA to grant registration in two categories (ASEL and self-launch glider), depending on which wings are installed? We have been flying with the short wings for 6 years, so a change from the existing category and operating limitations will be required. 5. Keeping potential controversy for last, how does Vne vary with altitude? (The Diamond Extreme in which Terry and I recently got our self-launch glider ratings has a placard which derates Vne from the marked value at 6500 feet by exactly the same ratios as shown in the table for the Pipistrel Sinus, referenced in the article recently posted by Richard Pottorff.) Thanks. Dave DeFord N135TD http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List avigator?Europa-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Sep 27, 2007
All I was flying today w my mono and one friend. Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind. There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece. Now I really know why I have to have legs. The Europa rudder must be quite effective! I have to say I was not very proud of that landing and so I was forced to do it again - just to show to my friend it is possible to land straight and beautiful (and it was). After 2nd landing we noticed the brake calliber has hit to the tire side. I have an original Europa Titan Turf Glide 8.00-6 tire. In manual they say use 1,2 bar but I have used to use 1,8 bar. Today - because of the cold weather and my laziness - there was only 1,0 bar. The brake calliber has hitted all the summer to the tire and I have noticed earlier those "marks" only - no significant wear almost at all. That is why I have decided to update real Aircraft tire and to the size 7.00-6. Now - today and with all the earlier landings - the brake calliber has "eaten" tire side let is say 1,0 mm (=0,04"). Somebody may think it was a "hard" landing but it was not: my G-meter w register showed only -0,4/+1,8G. Question: HOW THICK IS THE SIDE OF the Titan Turf Glide? If it is less than 2 mm - I cannot fly before new tire. If somebody has a spare Titan tire, please measure the side thickness. Thank you. Would like to get some answers asap and hope it is more than 3 mm thick! Raimo ==== OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Raimo, Difficult to know how thick it is without slicing it open. As long as you don't see any of the reinforcement material, i would not worry, not for some local flying. But of course, order a new one right away! But why change the concept? It should be an 8x6 tire, mine is an aircraft tire and has no marks. The right size is available, in aircraft quality. The pressure is advised as 18 psi or 1.2 bar. My tire was slowly loosing air, which was caused by abrasion to a quality control (sic) sticker in the inside of the tire. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Date: Sep 27, 2007
From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com>
Hi Bud, I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a motorglider with long wings, as quoted below; 'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.' If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally? regards, Terry Seaver N135TD ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration Dave, As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings. It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads on how to fill out the forms. Notes: Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider. Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your fly-off with both wings. They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly are considered and may be re-imposed). You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating. I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny. I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and print. All the numbers are there. I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a heartbeat. As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so equipped. In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct, the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.) CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch). I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder. My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults: Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS. Vne 129 KIAS Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!) No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine Vmanuever. RE G limit You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to wing/airframe stress. I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable. STRUCTURAL LIMIT: +3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs. +3.5g / -1.5g at 1450 lbs. +3.3g/-1.3 at 1550 lbs. The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning to for verification. Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get your attention. The monowheel squats even more. Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it. Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our personal QC. The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing them as hard as they can. As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test pilots together. It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is really a mach limit). Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform determine the effects of Mach crit. Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure) and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic pressure) and mach effects period. The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen, The T-33 by the mach crit. The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and pressure) You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors deemed important. Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you! There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his aircraft or its operation. All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but work within the system to make the product better. And all the manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as this, and I can't afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh in. Looks like I will be working late tonight. I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration. Off my soapbox now, Bud Yerly Custom Flight 813 653 4989 www.customflightcreations.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: More on Vne
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Hi, The discussion on the topic has been interesting - I caught the Australian article some time ago - and it brings up another facet. It is possible for an aircraft to climb to its Coffin Corner. I know. I did. Coffin Corner is described as that density altitude at which the Critical Mach No. and the stall come together as one. A knot faster and the aircraft becomes uncontrollable, a knot slower and you stall. What do you do? Drop the flaps? - and they tear off? No they don't. Open the Dive Brakes? - at altitude they are ineffective (In the Vampire, doubling the drag with them took up to 5 minutes to slow effectively). Also the engine runs at a minimum of 80%RPM just to stay lit at great height. The real threat is that in entering Critical mach you lose control of the machine. You won't regain mastery until the control surfaces achieve a 'grip', lower down in thicker air. During this interval, the heart hopes the device stays together - and it usually does. I understand the successor to the Vampire, the Venom, carried a much more powerful engine (which allowed it to climb even higher). This permitted a delayed Coffin Corner but made descent even more hazardous. I was told those so trapped actually chose to spin down rather than to run out of oxygen waiting to increase drag. That led on occasion to loss of a wing when the spin extended suddenly through the tropopause and into much thicker air. I don't remember flutter ever being mentioned. Cheers, ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Hi Dave and Terry, With full deference to my friend Bud who is the highest authority in the US on all matters Europa, let me just say that you can, if you wish obtain the Op Lim letter exactly as you wish. Indeed, my OpLim for N224XS is written exactly that way: when the long wings are installed the aircraft is a glider, self-launch, and when the short wings installed, a single engine airplane. All you need do is find a DAR who will write it up that way. When I registered my plane, the local DAR refused to see things my way, so I consulted the EAA and they recommended several other DARs who were more up-to-date and flexible. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136891#136891 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Bud Your time and patience are much apreciated. There is no substitute for experience and my thanks go to anyone willing to share it. There are a quite a few on this list which make it well worth the time spent reading it. One minor rant from me, "there is no such thing as a daft question" Graham ALAN YERLY wrote: > Dave, > As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and > have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings. > > It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads > on how to fill out the forms. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Raimo I wonder if the basic requirement to avoid the S's all over the runway is to never let the airplane land until the stick is on the back stop? I flew Europa monos for 5 years until one day, in another Europa I had never landed before I S'd all over. It happened twice in that airplane. Checking tailplane deflections after the first event showed not enough up elevator so no downforce. Graham Raimo Toivio wrote: > All > > I was flying today w my mono and one friend. > Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered > to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots > and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed > when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick > fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind. > There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing > but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece. > Raimo > ==== > OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Terry, In my conversations with the FAA Registration branch and Airworthiness branch it was a unanimous yes. I was as shocked as you. As an example, consider an LSA pilot flying a certified champ under LSA rules, the airplane meets the requirement that the pilot is flying under, yet a private pilot can fly the same plane under the private pilot privledges. Therefore, they must also allow a glider pilot with the proper motor glider endorsements fly any motor glider. A Single engine land aircraft certified pilot, can fly a Europa motor glider as an airplane. But if the plane is registered as a glider he cannot fly without a glider rating. I found it interesting that the FAA does not have a motorglider registration. The aircraft is either a glider or an airplane. With a couple of exceptions in their own certification goof ups. (Last I talked to Helen in registration, they were looking for an answer on how they were going to correct it, but it affects so few, they may not do a thing. You may put anything on the registration request form and it can get typed in as you put it down, but that doesn't mean it is correct according to their regs. ) I found the Oklahoma FAA pros to be very much can do. Focused on what we can do, and eager to help rather than prohibit. Your local FSDO may not see it this way on a ramp check, because most of them have no experience in an aircraft which can be flown as airplane and motor glider, nor do they have much experience with gliders, but they do understand the pilot ratings... Feel free to call your FSDO and have him talk to Les or Brad. Interesting, isn't it. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Seaver (terrys)<mailto:terrys(at)cisco.com> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 4:23 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration Hi Bud, I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a motorglider with long wings, as quoted below; 'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.' If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally? regards, Terry Seaver N135TD ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM To: europa-list(at)matronics.com; davedeford(at)comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration Dave, As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings. It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads on how to fill out the forms. Notes: Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider. Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your fly-off with both wings. They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly are considered and may be re-imposed). You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating. I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny. I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and print. All the numbers are there. I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a heartbeat. As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so equipped. In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct, the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.) CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch). I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder. My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults: Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS. Vne 129 KIAS Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!) No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine Vmanuever. RE G limit You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to wing/airframe stress. I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable. STRUCTURAL LIMIT: +3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs. +3.5g / -1.5g at 1450 lbs. +3.3g/-1.3 at 1550 lbs. The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning to for verification. Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get your attention. The monowheel squats even more. Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it. Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our personal QC. The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing them as hard as they can. As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test pilots together. It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is really a mach limit). Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform determine the effects of Mach crit. Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure) and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic pressure) and mach effects period. The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen, The T-33 by the mach crit. The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and pressure) You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors deemed important. Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you! There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his aircraft or its operation. All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but work within the system to make the product better. And all the manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as this, and I can't afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh in. Looks like I will be working late tonight. I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration. Off my soapbox now, Bud Yerly Custom Flight 813 653 4989 www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List avigator?Europa-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Graham, You're a saint. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham Singleton<mailto:grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration > Bud Your time and patience are much apreciated. There is no substitute for experience and my thanks go to anyone willing to share it. There are a quite a few on this list which make it well worth the time spent reading it. One minor rant from me, "there is no such thing as a daft question" Graham ALAN YERLY wrote: > Dave, > As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and > have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings. > > It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads > on how to fill out the forms. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List avigator?Europa-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Date: Sep 27, 2007
Ira is correct and thank you for the note on the Ops limits. That is the area in which the DAR defines the aircraft limitations. I too had to search for a DAR that was willing to do the research, and we both worked with the FAA Pros who made it all happen. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: rampil<mailto:ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration > Hi Dave and Terry, With full deference to my friend Bud who is the highest authority in the US on all matters Europa, let me just say that you can, if you wish obtain the Op Lim letter exactly as you wish. Indeed, my OpLim for N224XS is written exactly that way: when the long wings are installed the aircraft is a glider, self-launch, and when the short wings installed, a single engine airplane. All you need do is find a DAR who will write it up that way. When I registered my plane, the local DAR refused to see things my way, so I consulted the EAA and they recommended several other DARs who were more up-to-date and flexible. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136891#136891 matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136891#136891> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List avigator?Europa-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2007
From: "Ralph K. Hallett III" <n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Terry, I'm sure you remember David Anderson. He lost his medical when he got a defibrillator, built a MotorGlider and flew it as a self launch until he had the defib removed and got his 1st class medical back. So the answer is yes you fly it with your glider rating which doesn't require a medical. Ralph MG 914 five years in the build, ugh! Reno, NV Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote: > Hi Bud, > I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving > our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather > than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a > motorglider with long wings, as quoted below; > 'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.' > If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched > glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally? > regards, > Terry Seaver > N135TD > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *ALAN YERLY > *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM > *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com; davedeford(at)comcast.net > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration > > Dave, > As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and > have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both > wings. > It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of > downloads on how to fill out the forms. > Notes: > Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider. > Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your > fly-off with both wings. > They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your > Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to > establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider > wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly > are considered and may be re-imposed). > You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating. > I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa > dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, > he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior > trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny. > I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and > print. All the numbers are there. > I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening > for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter > just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they > are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and > personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and > the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft > to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they > are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The > motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude > (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 > KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a > heartbeat. > As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a > problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of > speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so > equipped. > In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct, > the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. > Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase > is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.) > CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where > full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both > wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings > at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft > stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch). > I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder. > My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot > (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown > or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control > systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely > to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational > safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid > EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults: > Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable > as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS. > Vne 129 KIAS > Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!) > No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and > achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine > Vmanuever. > RE G limit > You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to > wing/airframe stress. > I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for > someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable. > ** > *STRUCTURAL LIMIT: * > *+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.* > ** > ** > > *+3.5g / -1.5g at * > *1450 lbs.* > ** > ** > > *+3.3g/-1.3 at * > *1550 lbs.* > ** > ** > > The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop > your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning > to for verification. > Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get > your attention. The monowheel squats even more. > Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away > with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it. > Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, > that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different > standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why > production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit > builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our > personal QC. > The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of > this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of > the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and > adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing > them as hard as they can. > As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test > pilots together. > It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the > new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is > really a mach limit). > Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is > altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is > 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the > note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber > and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform > determine the effects of Mach crit. > Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure) > and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, > windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, > etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments > provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor > and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are > made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public > use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I > have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic > pressure) and mach effects period. > The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen, > The T-33 by the mach crit. > The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and > pressure) > You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need > to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors > deemed important. > Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be > avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back > to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to > meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you! > There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have > been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the > aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport > aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional > help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers > which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions > that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his > aircraft or its operation. > All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field > experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach > to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but > work within the system to make the product better. And all the > manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is > forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was > done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and > doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally > do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as > this, and I cant afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh > in. Looks like I will be working late tonight. > I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration. > Off my soapbox now, > Bud Yerly > Custom Flight > 813 653 4989 > www.customflightcreations.com <http://www.customflightcreations.com> > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Sep 28, 2007
Raimo, I have never actually cut one of the factory supplied tyres open, but after a couple of years of operating it I got a puncture (luckily on taxi out). To try and find the small point that had caused it I placed my hand inside the tyre with the other on the outside. I have to say that the rubber material is very, very thin and although I re-used the tyre (after repair to the tube) for a few weeks, I straight away got in a replacement regualr aircraft tyre (which Europa now supply). This has several advantages. Thicker rubber, stiffer wall (less sideways roll) and more clearance with the undercarriage frame legs. I know this is not the firm measurement that you required, but personally, if there was any piont scoring, as you would get with a brake calliper score mark, I would definitely not use the tyre. Whilst we used the original tyre, we did have some marks made my the undercarriage legs, but that was more like a polishing mark than a scored mark, and whilst I wasn't happy with it, I did put up with it, whilst monitoring it all the time. Dave Watts Europa Mono Classic 229 with 1250 hrs. I was flying today w my mono and one friend. Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind. There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece. Now I really know why I have to have legs. The Europa rudder must be quite effective! I have to say I was not very proud of that landing and so I was forced to do it again - just to show to my friend it is possible to land straight and beautiful (and it was). After 2nd landing we noticed the brake calliber has hit to the tire side. I have an original Europa Titan Turf Glide 8.00-6 tire. In manual they say use 1,2 bar but I have used to use 1,8 bar. Today - because of the cold weather and my laziness - there was only 1,0 bar. The brake calliber has hitted all the summer to the tire and I have noticed earlier those "marks" only - no significant wear almost at all. That is why I have decided to update real Aircraft tire and to the size 7.00-6. Now - today and with all the earlier landings - the brake calliber has "eaten" tire side let is say 1,0 mm (=0,04"). Somebody may think it was a "hard" landing but it was not: my G-meter w register showed only -0,4/+1,8G. Question: HOW THICK IS THE SIDE OF the Titan Turf Glide? If it is less than 2 mm - I cannot fly before new tire. If somebody has a spare Titan tire, please measure the side thickness. Thank you. Would like to get some answers asap and hope it is more than 3 mm thick! Raimo ==== OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Sep 28, 2007
Jos are you sure there is reinforcement material in the sides also??? My tire is too fat and wanna have slightly narrower one. Cannot understand what is the reason you have no tire contact to the brake calliber! Same size, same stuff ! Earlier I asked recommendations for tire and most of us prefer AirTrac 7.00-6. My idea was to change tire during winterstop, but obviously I have to do it immediately if I want to fly. Just hate that job! I know succested pressure is 1,2 bar but I still do like to use 1,8 bar as do many other Europa mono pilots too. We should have our DOTH soon - we could compare our tire-brake calliber combination. Wishes, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > > Raimo, > > Difficult to know how thick it is without slicing it open. > As long as you don't see any of the reinforcement material, i would not worry, not for some local flying. But of course, order a new one right away! > But why change the concept? It should be an 8x6 tire, mine is an aircraft tire and has no marks. The right size is available, in aircraft quality. The pressure is advised as 18 psi or 1.2 bar. > My tire was slowly loosing air, which was caused by abrasion to a quality control (sic) sticker in the inside of the tire. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Sep 28, 2007
Graham My tailplane declections are perfect. I got Ss because I was careless! My fault - plane is perfect! I have completed so far about 100 landings and no difficulties at all. My most demanding landing was so far in Endealave during fly-inn three weeks ago. Wind was 24G38, headwind, grass runway, lenght 600 metres. Stefan Ingemarsson from Sweden did it also succesfully. Wishes, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:42 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > > Raimo > I wonder if the basic requirement to avoid the S's all over the runway > is to never let the airplane land until the stick is on the back stop? > I flew Europa monos for 5 years until one day, in another Europa I had > never landed before I S'd all over. It happened twice in that airplane. > Checking tailplane deflections after the first event showed not enough > up elevator so no downforce. > Graham > > Raimo Toivio wrote: > > All > > > > I was flying today w my mono and one friend. > > Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered > > to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots > > and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed > > when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick > > fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind. > > There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing > > but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece. > > > Raimo > > ==== > > OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy > > > > > > -- > Graham Singleton > > Tel: +441629820187 > Mob: +447739582005 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Sep 28, 2007
Thanks Dave for safety information! Now I know it is "thin". It will be quite an interesting moment, when I next time land with that tire! I still would like to know to make my conclusions: 1) what is the exact thickness of the original tire side? Somebody has an uninstalled tire /tyre - please could he measure it? 2) are there some reinforcement material in the sides also as Jos suppose? I am talking about Titan Turf Glide tire. 3) why I have some slightly contact with tire and brake calliber? Is it only my problem? If I change to the size 7.00-6, that contact is away - am I right? 4) what happens when landing with empty mono main wheel? Or when it bangs during first touch? Total catastrophe or what? If so I hope nobody know! Have a nice weekend, Raimo =================== OH-XRT #417, flying w broken main tire... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > > Raimo, > > I have never actually cut one of the factory supplied tyres open, but after > a couple of years of operating it I got a puncture (luckily on taxi out). To > try and find the small point that had caused it I placed my hand inside the > tyre with the other on the outside. > > I have to say that the rubber material is very, very thin and although I > re-used the tyre (after repair to the tube) for a few weeks, I straight away > got in a replacement regualr aircraft tyre (which Europa now supply). This > has several advantages. Thicker rubber, stiffer wall (less sideways roll) > and more clearance with the undercarriage frame legs. > > I know this is not the firm measurement that you required, but personally, > if there was any piont scoring, as you would get with a brake calliper score > mark, I would definitely not use the tyre. Whilst we used the original tyre, > we did have some marks made my the undercarriage legs, but that was more > like a polishing mark than a scored mark, and whilst I wasn't happy with it, > I did put up with it, whilst monitoring it all the time. > > Dave Watts > Europa Mono Classic 229 with 1250 hrs. > > I was flying today w my mono and one friend. > Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered > to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots > and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed > when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick > fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind. > There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing > but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece. > Now I really know why I have to have legs. > The Europa rudder must be quite effective! > I have to say I was not very proud of that landing and > so I was forced to do it again - just to show to my friend > it is possible to land straight and beautiful (and it was). > > After 2nd landing we noticed the brake calliber has hit to > the tire side. I have an original Europa Titan Turf Glide > 8.00-6 tire. In manual they say use 1,2 bar but I have > used to use 1,8 bar. Today - because of the cold weather > and my laziness - there was only 1,0 bar. > > The brake calliber has hitted all the summer to the tire > and I have noticed earlier those "marks" only > - no significant wear almost at all. That is why I have > decided to update real Aircraft tire and to the size 7.00-6. > Now - today and with all the earlier landings > - the brake calliber has "eaten" tire side let > is say 1,0 mm (=0,04"). > > Somebody may think it was a "hard" landing but it > was not: my G-meter w register showed only -0,4/+1,8G. > > Question: > > HOW THICK IS THE SIDE OF the Titan Turf Glide? > > If it is less than 2 mm - I cannot fly before new tire. > If somebody has a spare Titan tire, please measure the > side thickness. Thank you. Would like to get some > answers asap and hope it is more than 3 mm thick! > > Raimo > ==== > OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411)
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2007
John, Having tracked down the VLA specs I had a look at what it had to say about prop clearances. Unless I am very much mistaken I dont beleive the tyre should be deflated to achieve the 230mm clearance. Here is the actual wording "(a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least 180 mm (for each aeroplane with nose wheel landing gear) or 230 mm (for each aeroplane with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with the landing gear statically deflected and in the level, normal take-off, or taxying attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, for each aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical means for absorbing landing shocks, there must be positive clearance between the propeller and the ground in the level take-off attitude with the critical tyre completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear strut bottomed." If my interpretation is right there have to be two checks made. You first load the aircraft up to its maximum weight and the clearance has to be in excess of 230mm, then you deflate the tyre and there should then be what they describe as "positive clearance" . Having said this my understanding is that most Classic Europas would fail the VLA test even with the 1575 blade fitted (ie: the Warp Drive). However the ruling is not retrospective so should not affect existing approved installatons. Apparently the XS monos are not similarly affected because the XS engine mount raises the propeller by about 1.5" (compared to the mono. Consequently the 1625mm prop can be approved. None of which is any help to me - it seems the Woodcomp is a non starter. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137002#137002 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Sep 28, 2007
Raimo, I witnessed Jim Naylor have a blowout as he touched down at our grass strip at Laddingford. It was not a total disaster, he just stopped VERY VERY quickly. He thought he had the brake on, and just made sure he kept full back stick. Dave Watts Europa Mono Classic 229 with 1250 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> > 4) what happens when landing with empty mono main wheel? > Or when it bangs during first touch? > Total catastrophe or what? > If so I hope nobody know! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2007
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
and... if I recall correctly David told me that a quirk of the regs allowed him to fly a motor glider IFR !! On 9/27/07, Ralph K. Hallett III wrote: > > Terry, > I'm sure you remember David Anderson. He lost his medical when he got a > defibrillator, built a MotorGlider and flew it as a self launch until he > had the defib removed and got his 1st class medical back. So the answer > is yes you fly it with your glider rating which doesn't require a medical. > Ralph > MG 914 five years in the build, ugh! > Reno, NV > > Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote: > > Hi Bud, > > I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving > > our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather > > than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a > > motorglider with long wings, as quoted below; > > 'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.' > > If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched > > glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally? > > regards, > > Terry Seaver > > N135TD > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *ALAN YERLY > > *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM > > *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com; davedeford(at)comcast.net > > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration > > > > Dave, > > As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and > > have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both > > wings. > > It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of > > downloads on how to fill out the forms. > > Notes: > > Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider. > > Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your > > fly-off with both wings. > > They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your > > Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to > > establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider > > wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly > > are considered and may be re-imposed). > > You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating. > > I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa > > dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, > > he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior > > trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny. > > I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and > > print. All the numbers are there. > > I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening > > for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter > > just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they > > are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and > > personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and > > the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft > > to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they > > are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The > > motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude > > (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 > > KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a > > heartbeat. > > As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a > > problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of > > speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so > > equipped. > > In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct, > > the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. > > Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase > > is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.) > > CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where > > full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both > > wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings > > at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft > > stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch). > > I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder. > > My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot > > (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown > > or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control > > systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely > > to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational > > safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid > > EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults: > > Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable > > as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS. > > Vne 129 KIAS > > Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!) > > No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and > > achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine > > Vmanuever. > > RE G limit > > You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to > > wing/airframe stress. > > I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for > > someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable. > > ** > > *STRUCTURAL LIMIT: * > > *+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.* > > ** > > ** > > > > *+3.5g / -1.5g at * > > *1450 lbs.* > > ** > > ** > > > > *+3.3g/-1.3 at * > > *1550 lbs.* > > ** > > ** > > > > The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop > > your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning > > to for verification. > > Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get > > your attention. The monowheel squats even more. > > Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away > > with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it. > > Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, > > that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different > > standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why > > production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit > > builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our > > personal QC. > > The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of > > this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of > > the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and > > adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing > > them as hard as they can. > > As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test > > pilots together. > > It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the > > new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is > > really a mach limit). > > Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is > > altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is > > 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the > > note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber > > and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform > > determine the effects of Mach crit. > > Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure) > > and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, > > windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, > > etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments > > provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor > > and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are > > made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public > > use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I > > have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic > > pressure) and mach effects period. > > The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen, > > The T-33 by the mach crit. > > The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and > > pressure) > > You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need > > to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors > > deemed important. > > Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be > > avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back > > to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to > > meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you! > > There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have > > been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the > > aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport > > aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional > > help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers > > which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions > > that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his > > aircraft or its operation. > > All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field > > experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach > > to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but > > work within the system to make the product better. And all the > > manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is > > forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was > > done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and > > doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally > > do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as > > this, and I can't afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh > > in. Looks like I will be working late tonight. > > I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration. > > Off my soapbox now, > > Bud Yerly > > Custom Flight > > 813 653 4989 > > www.customflightcreations.com <http://www.customflightcreations.com> > > * > > > > > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "karelvranken" <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Sep 28, 2007
Dear Raimo, The tickness of the tire side is 7 mm. From the inside it looks like fabric impression, so I suppose it is reinforced. 3) yes. 4) So far I have no experience and I will not do it for you. S landings occur when you drink Koskenkorva vodka before flight. SS landings happened during WWII. Friendly yours, Karel Vranken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:12 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > 1) what is the exact thickness of the original > tire side? Somebody has an uninstalled tire /tyre > - please could he measure it? > > 2) are there some reinforcement material in the sides also > as Jos suppose? I am talking about Titan Turf Glide tire. > > 3) why I have some slightly contact with tire and brake calliber? > Is it only my problem? If I change to the size 7.00-6, > that contact is away - am I right? > > 4) what happens when landing with empty mono main wheel? > Or when it bangs during first touch? > Total catastrophe or what? > If so I hope nobody know! > > Have a nice weekend, Raimo > =================== > OH-XRT #417, flying w broken main tire... > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Les James" <wharf.farm(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410,
IMG_0411)
Date: Sep 28, 2007
----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:23 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) > > > John, > > Having tracked down the VLA specs I had a look at what it had to say about > prop clearances. Unless I am very much mistaken I dont beleive the tyre > should be deflated to achieve the 230mm clearance. > > Here is the actual wording > > "(a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least 180 mm (for > each aeroplane with nose wheel landing gear) or 230 mm (for each aeroplane > with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with > the landing gear statically deflected and in the level, normal take-off, > or taxying attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, for each > aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical > means for absorbing landing shocks, there must be positive clearance > between the propeller and the ground in the level take-off attitude with > the critical tyre completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear > strut bottomed." > > If my interpretation is right there have to be two checks made. You first > load the aircraft up to its maximum weight and the clearance has to be in > excess of 230mm, then you deflate the tyre and there should then be what > they describe as "positive clearance" . > > Having said this my understanding is that most Classic Europas would fail > the VLA test even with the 1575 blade fitted (ie: the Warp Drive). However > the ruling is not retrospective so should not affect existing approved > installatons. > > Apparently the XS monos are not similarly affected because the XS engine > mount raises the propeller by about 1.5" (compared to the mono. > Consequently the 1625mm prop can be approved. > > None of which is any help to me - it seems the Woodcomp is a non starter. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137002#137002 > > > -- > 9/27/2007 5:00 PM > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
From: "h&jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Dave, We followed Dave Anderson's lead and registered our Europa as an Airplane / Motorglider. We did that by adding a statement to the Program Letter that says it's a glider with long wings fitted and an airplane with short wings fitted. Our Op Lims that the FAA gave us has that same statement in it. Our Airworthiness Certificate also says Airplane / Motorglider. Your pilot license shows your ratings, mine says ASEL; Glider; Instrument Airplane. FAR Part 1 defines an "airplane as engine driven, fixed wing aircraft" and defines "glider as ..whose free flight does not depend principally on an engine". So when my Europa is configured with the short wings, it is an airplane and I use my ASEL. When it is fitted with the long wings it is a glider and I use my Glider Rating. In a similar manner, the FAR's require that I have a current Medical Cert when I exercise my ASEL privileges. I do not have to have a Medical Cert when I exercise my Glider privileges. There is also a note in AC21.17-2A para 7b that states that for a motorglider you must show that the calculation of max weight to wing span squared must not exceed .62 lb/ft squared. I calculated this for a short wing XS and I got 1.85; for the original glider wings (42.6 ft wing span) I got .77; for the current wings (47.25 ft wing span) I got .61. So you must have the new style wing tips to be legal. In reality none of this matters UNLESS you are ramp checked or involved in an accident, incident or other action that gets the FAA's attention. Bud, Thank you for making the Motorglider POH available. I didn't know it existed (even been told by E04 that it didn't!). This makes operation of the motorglider much safer! Paul, since my license says Instrument Airplane, I can't operate as a motorglider IFR. Jim Butcher N241BW Almost together again! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137105#137105 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
From: "h&jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Terry, You wrote, "If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally?" The answer is NO. To operate without a medical your Europa must be registered as a motorglider and have the long wings fitted. A pilot with ASEL (and no self launch glider rating) can only operate a Europa with the long wings fitted if the Op Lim does not specify the two configurations. But then he must have a Medical. Certainly the motorglider configuration is a nice airplane with the engine running - John Hurst preferred that for long cross country flights! Jim Butcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137107#137107 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Re : Tire question - cannot fly before information
Hi Raimo, If you install a 7.00-6, 6 ply tire, you should have no problem with contact between the tire and the caliper. Cheers, John 3) why I have some slightly contact with tire and brake calliber? Is it only my problem? If I change to the size 7.00-6, that contact is away - am I right? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re : Tire question - cannot fly before informat
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Hi John, That's exactly what's bothering me, why does the Manual and the factory supply 8x6 and does my plane, and probably many others fly with 8x6 without any rubbing? It changes the attitude on the ground for one thing. Sounds like ill advise to me, however well meant. This plane has been very well designed, is very well tested and still oh well: Lets mount something else, worse advise somebody else to do that. Think hard please, are you absolutely sure about all aspects of the change you propose? Are you qualified to advert changes? Are you ready to pay for the consequences if the advice is not so good after all? Sorry for the flame, but sometimes somebody has to pull the brakes. Why me again :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Jim, Thank you for your thoughtful (and hopefully definitive) statement on this issue...it's a keeper. > We followed Dave Anderson's lead and registered our Europa as an > Airplane / Motorglider. We did that by adding a statement to the > Program Letter that says it's a glider with long wings fitted and an > airplane with short wings fitted. Our Op Lims that the FAA gave us > has that same statement in it. Our Airworthiness Certificate also > says Airplane / Motorglider. One question: When you went thru your registration process, did you have the long wings in hand for inspection, or did you merely reference the Europa written material/pictures to support your application for dual categories? Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JohnDHeykoop(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410,
IMG_04... Carl Andy Draper said the following in a letter he wrote me on 15th August. " The Woodcomp scimitar blades are acceptable, however there is an issue with the diameter. The maximum diameter propeller accepted on the Europa XS monowheel is 64" (1625mm). If you wished to fit a larger diameter propeller, you will need to show compliance with CS-VLA925. Amongst other things to check, the ground clearance from the propeller tip with the aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat tyre must be at least 230mm." Andy therefore seems to think you do have to have a minimum of 230mm clearance with a deflated tyre. However, I agree with your interpretation of the rules, and I think he could be persuaded that with a deflated tyre the rules only require "positive clearance". Regards John In a message dated 28/09/2007 16:26:01 GMT Standard Time, carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com writes: John, Having tracked down the VLA specs I had a look at what it had to say about prop clearances. Unless I am very much mistaken I dont beleive the tyre should be deflated to achieve the 230mm clearance. Here is the actual wording "(a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least 180 mm (for each aeroplane with nose wheel landing gear) or 230 mm (for each aeroplane with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with the landing gear statically deflected and in the level, normal take-off, or taxying attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, for each aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical means for absorbing landing shocks, there must be positive clearance between the propeller and the ground in the level take-off attitude with the critical tyre completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear strut bottomed." If my interpretation is right there have to be two checks made. You first load the aircraft up to its maximum weight and the clearance has to be in excess of 230mm, then you deflate the tyre and there should then be what they describe as "positive clearance" . Having said this my understanding is that most Classic Europas would fail the VLA test even with the 1575 blade fitted (ie: the Warp Drive). However the ruling is not retrospective so should not affect existing approved installatons. Apparently the XS monos are not similarly affected because the XS engine mount raises the propeller by about 1.5" (compared to the mono. Consequently the 1625mm prop can be approved. None of which is any help to me - it seems the Woodcomp is a non starter. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Houlihan" <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re : Tire question - cannot fly before informat
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Hi Jos You can blame me, at least in part, for the Golf cart tyre supplied in the early kits. Many years ago I happened to be at Kirkbymoorside when Ivan was trying to contain escalating costs during development of the first series of kits. He was looking into the use of alternative tyres he asked me If thought customers would find the golf cart tyres acceptable as they were significantly less expensive than true aircraft tyres. I was going through one of my phases of thinking that most aircraft parts had a large element of added cost over exactly equivalent commercial parts. So I said that if they were Ok for size ,loading, speed etc then I would by OK with the alternative tyre. I note your comments about the Europa being a well tested product is completely correct but bear in mind that since the take over by EMIL some years ago virtually all development was stopped and since then all the experience that has been gained has been by owner builders and flyers like you and John. The Europa is in many ways an "Experimental" aircraft and development is necessary or it will not evolve as it should and could just fade away. So please do not stick to the view that the design is perfect and if it's not in the build manual it's wrong. Best regards Tim -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok Sent: 29 September 2007 16:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re : Tire question - cannot fly before informat Hi John, That's exactly what's bothering me, why does the Manual and the factory supply 8x6 and does my plane, and probably many others fly with 8x6 without any rubbing? It changes the attitude on the ground for one thing. Sounds like ill advise to me, however well meant. This plane has been very well designed, is very well tested and still oh well: Lets mount something else, worse advise somebody else to do that. Think hard please, are you absolutely sure about all aspects of the change you propose? Are you qualified to advert changes? Are you ready to pay for the consequences if the advice is not so good after all? Sorry for the flame, but sometimes somebody has to pull the brakes. Why me again :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org 13:53 13:53 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Jim I always said (to Ivan many times) the short wings were Too short. He always says it would spoil the handling to lengthen them but then he is obsessed with scarumbatics. Scared me a few times! The rate of climb of the motor glider is much better than the short wing. I only flew it once but when I finally got the speed on full power climb out down to 70 kts the angle was so steep it was a while before I dared to turn! That was in G-ODTI (go dotty?) with the foam wings, which are still lying in the hangar I think, Graham h&jeuropa wrote: > > Certainly the motorglider configuration is a nice airplane with the engine running - John Hurst preferred that for long cross country flights! > > Jim Butcher > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137107#137107 > > > > > > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410,
IMG_04...
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Carl/John The way I read that is that the sentence requiring you to deflate the tyre only applies to "for each aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical means for absorbing landing shocks". Unless there are more words elsewhere in the regulation that are not in this email Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JohnDHeykoop(at)aol.com Sent: 29 September 2007 18:30 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04... Carl Andy Draper said the following in a letter he wrote me on 15th August. " The Woodcomp scimitar blades are acceptable, however there is an issue with the diameter. The maximum diameter propeller accepted on the Europa XS monowheel is 64" (1625mm). If you wished to fit a larger diameter propeller, you will need to show compliance with CS-VLA925. Amongst other things to check, the ground clearance from the propeller tip with the aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat tyre must be at least 230mm." Andy therefore seems to think you do have to have a minimum of 230mm clearance with a deflated tyre. However, I agree with your interpretation of the rules, and I think he could be persuaded that with a deflated tyre the rules only require "positive clearance". Regards John In a message dated 28/09/2007 16:26:01 GMT Standard Time, carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com writes: John, Having tracked down the VLA specs I had a look at what it had to say about prop clearances. Unless I am very much mistaken I dont beleive the tyre should be deflated to achieve the 230mm clearance. Here is the actual wording "(a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least 180 mm (for each aeroplane with nose wheel landing gear) or 230 mm (for each aeroplane with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with the landing gear statically deflected and in the level, normal take-off, or taxying attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, for each aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical means for absorbing landing shocks, there must be positive clearance between the propeller and the ground in the level take-off attitude with the critical tyre completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear strut bottomed." If my interpretation is right there have to be two checks made. You first load the aircraft up to its maximum weight and the clearance has to be in excess of 230mm, then you deflate the tyre and there should then be what they describe as "positive clearance" . Having said this my understanding is that most Classic Europas would fail the VLA test even with the 1575 blade fitted (ie: the Warp Drive). However the ruling is not retrospective so should not affect existing approved installatons. Apparently the XS monos are not similarly affected because the XS engine mount raises the propeller by about 1.5" (compared to the mono. Consequently the 1625mm prop can be approved. None of which is any help to me - it seems the Woodcomp is a non starter. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by <http://www.mailscanner.info/> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re : Tire question - cannot fly before informat
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Hi Tim, You are right, in that further development of this airplane should be possible and should happen. Exactly on this forum are also great solutions and changes made available. My plane is not standard at all. What i do object against is "advice" without even the most basic form of substantiating the content. It does not matter if it is about the color of the interior, but if it involves security or flying properties some self discipline is called for. Advising to remove throttle springs was a fine example, changing tire size is another one. I don't think the golf cart tires were a very good idea, although some of them are still around. Apart of the difference in price, there is probably also a difference in the narrowness of the specification. Raimo's tire is 8 years old on top of that. Tires do have a limited shelf life. Time to change for a real airplane tire! (of the right size) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04...
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Thanks John, The problem is that we have a Classic Europa which is 1.5" closer to the ground and it seems that all current propellers (including the approved 1575 mm dia ones) would not pass the VLA requirements. I am going to make some measurements tomorrow to check this is the case. The only way it seems that we could fit the Wood-comp prop would be to upgrade the front end of the AC to the XS specs - it simply wouldn't be cost effective and probably cost more than the prop. The only reason we are seriously considering fitting a VP prop is because of Mod 74 - there seems to be no point in doing this without incorporating Mod 52 (weight increase mod). The only other serious option is the air master setup which is the one favored by the PFA. The Arplast from what I hear is not particularly reliable due to their using an underpowered motor. I was hoping that with William Mills using a Scimitar blade prop on his Classic it would be relatively straight forward but Woodcomp themselves say this particular prop is 1650mm and that they never made anything smaller. Carl Pattinson G-LABS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137152#137152 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04...
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Pete, The wording quoted in my email is precisely as per the VLA manual. There is more on the subject further in the chapter but not relevant to the clearance issue. None the less I am inclined to agree that this would be the official interpretation though I would be tempted to argue the case with the PFA. IMHO the actual wording is perfectly clear and logical when you think about it (ie: it allows for the possibility of a puncture). There seems to be no merit in insisting that there is at least 230mm with the tyre deflated - what would that achieve? When I have made some measurements (which I will do tomorrow) I will know if there is any chance of putting forward a valid argument. One further thought is that when the aircraft about to off (ie: level) the undercarriage is supporting very little load as this is taken up by the wings. In the landing configuration the prop is nowhere near the ground (ie: stick well back). I wouldn't expect the PFA to buy that argument though. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137153#137153 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04...
From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Carl, Responding to two of your points: I should think that the prop to ground clearance would be at a minimum on a heavy arrival when the main gear tyre and suspension is compressed and, possibly, the tail is still in the air. The paperwork that came with my scimitar bladed SR3000 states it is 1625mm in diameter (not 1650). Perhaps the paperwork is wrong. If it is, do I have to saw 1/2" of each tip? Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137159#137159 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: FW: Quandary II
Date: Sep 29, 2007
-----Original Message----- From: Fergus Kyle [mailto:VE3LVO(at)rac.ca] Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2007 11 58 To: EUROPALIST Subject: Quandary Say, I thought I'd share a story with you - you, who have the original trailer..... It's been so long in the build, and the trailer was at home, I thought to see how well the stabs sat in it, with the fuselage aboard - perhaps even a photo opportunity. On they went, slick as a whistle. However, on retrieving the pair, the fascinating little black plug that ends the tube holding them was missing. Can you guess where it hides? Yes, in the bottom of the stab hole. Any suggestions as to the recovery of the little black plug would be gratefully received here. In the meantime, take all rational measures to prevent another loss. Cheers, ferg Wiring, wiring Hello, ....to those of you who may have read of the original 'Quandary' (and/or have a Classic mono trailer). Above, a review of the trouble. First a thank you to the various creative suggestions sent to me in reply. Some I tried, some were not possible. The fact that the stopper jammed beyond the outer bearing precluded TNT, the vacuum cleaner and sundry other modi operandi. I thought you might want a success report. I had produced a 3/16" hole in the tip of the stab, concentric with the 1-1/2" stab axle hole. Its purpose was to permit wiring an AA battery inside the end and wires to a bright LED which curved around the top of the tip to illuminate the vertical fin - airline-wise. I should have mentioned this. A word in praise of British Telecom is in order. They came to a sultry corner of Devon several (many) years ago and clipped about half a mile of beautiful 4mm Copperweld wire from adjacent poles, and tossed it into a 'kip' (movable garbage bin). Happening by, I casually asked whether it was going straight to Hades in a handcart and the reply gave me an immense coil of it. How it got to Burlington, Canada is a boring story, but it sat grinding its teeth in my basement. That is, until I realized that 4mm goes into 3/16" very handily. I cut a metre-long piece, spent some time straightening it and slid it down the little hole toward the cowardly stopper. When it stopped against the miscreant, I bopped it with my little hammer and that rotated the stopper to a diametric stance across the outer bearing. Retrieving the wire, I then applied the electrical pliers to bend a sharp 180 in the end, and then clipped that to a nasty point with the nippers. With Jenny holding the flashlight (torch) above the inboard end of the stab axle hole I cannily slid the hook past the wall of the stopper, rotated 90 degrees, yorked upward to set the hook and then wrenched the @#$%^& free. It bent obediently to the task and actually flew across the room with hardly a whimper. By this time the trailer, having been left to its fate outdoors, had collected several inches of rain down the spout and required suction, alcohol and used motor oil to stop the incipient rust. The stopper was applied and I washed my hands. Thus endeth the lesson. Cheers, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04...
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Mark, On a mono wheel Europa if you land in a "level" attitude you are heading for trouble anyway. The ideal attitude is tail and main wheel simultaneously though tail first is acceptable. I emailed Andy on Friday and here is part of his reply "The largest diameter prop that is accepted for use on a mono-wheel Europa with the Classic engine installation is 62" (1575mm). The XS engine installation places the engine 1.5" higher and therefore a 65" (1650mm) diameter is accepted, although generally the 64" (1625mm) diameter is used. On a recent check that I did on ground clearance, if the VLA requirements were adhered to, then the Classic mono would be limited to about a 56" diameter! " I also spoke to Conrad Beale and he tells me that the standard Europa Wood-comp is 1625mm and the Scimitar Wood-Comp is 1650mm. Wood-comp say they only use one mould for each prop and that the sizes have always been the same. It doesn't really matter if your Scimitar prop is 1625 or 1650 because (presumably) there is more than adequate clearance with the tri-gear setup. It would be worth knowing what the measured diameter of your prop is - hopefully its the same as the paperwork. What concerns me is that Woodcomp says the Scimitar prop is 1650 mm (65") but your paperwork (and Williams) says it is 1600 mm (63"). If you don't believe me heres the link to Woodcomps specs. http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/sr3000-2-blade-wood--composite-prop-scimitar-blades-316-p.asp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137162#137162 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04...
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
This is probably a better link to the Woodcomp specs. http://www.conairsports.co.uk/Woodcomp%20Pricelist.pdf Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137163#137163 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Correct email address for Duncan
Hi All, I just sent and email to Duncan at " ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk " but it bounced. Is this correct or has he changed email address ? Thanks, Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04...
From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Carl, The people with tape measures don't care about it being better to land tail down. If it's possible to plant the thing heavily on the mainwheel in a level attitude then that's what it has to be able to cope with (from a prop clearance point of view). Personally, I don't believe William's prop was 63" in diameter. From memory, he (verbally) told me: "I asked for a 63 inch prop, and that's what I believe I got". I don't know if he ever measured the diameter. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137168#137168 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410,
IMG_04...
Date: Sep 29, 2007
Carl, The Woodcomp specs are not always correct. On paper my prop is 1750, but the actual diameter is 1720. Also, the specified weight is less than the actual. Karl >From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com> >Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, >IMG_04... >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:21:38 -0700 > > > >Mark, > >On a mono wheel Europa if you land in a "level" attitude you are heading >for trouble anyway. The ideal attitude is tail and main wheel >simultaneously though tail first is acceptable. > >I emailed Andy on Friday and here is part of his reply > >"The largest diameter prop that is accepted for use on a mono-wheel Europa >with the Classic engine installation is 62" (1575mm). The XS engine >installation places the engine 1.5" higher and therefore a 65" (1650mm) >diameter is accepted, although generally the 64" (1625mm) diameter is used. > >On a recent check that I did on ground clearance, if the VLA requirements >were adhered to, then the Classic mono would be limited to about a 56" >diameter! " > >I also spoke to Conrad Beale and he tells me that the standard Europa >Wood-comp is 1625mm and the Scimitar Wood-Comp is 1650mm. Wood-comp say >they only use one mould for each prop and that the sizes have always been >the same. > >It doesn't really matter if your Scimitar prop is 1625 or 1650 because >(presumably) there is more than adequate clearance with the tri-gear setup. > >It would be worth knowing what the measured diameter of your prop is - >hopefully its the same as the paperwork. > >What concerns me is that Woodcomp says the Scimitar prop is 1650 mm (65") >but your paperwork (and Williams) says it is 1600 mm (63"). > >If you don't believe me heres the link to Woodcomps specs. > >http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/sr3000-2-blade-wood--composite-prop-scimitar-blades-316-p.asp > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137162#137162 > > _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: FW: Quandary II
Date: Sep 30, 2007
congrats on your success -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle Sent: Sunday, 30 September 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Europa-List: FW: Quandary II -----Original Message----- From: Fergus Kyle [mailto:VE3LVO(at)rac.ca] Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2007 11 58 To: EUROPALIST Subject: Quandary Say, I thought I'd share a story with you - you, who have the original trailer..... It's been so long in the build, and the trailer was at home, I thought to see how well the stabs sat in it, with the fuselage aboard - perhaps even a photo opportunity. On they went, slick as a whistle. However, on retrieving the pair, the fascinating little black plug that ends the tube holding them was missing. Can you guess where it hides? Yes, in the bottom of the stab hole. Any suggestions as to the recovery of the little black plug would be gratefully received here. In the meantime, take all rational measures to prevent another loss. Cheers, ferg Wiring, wiring Hello, ....to those of you who may have read of the original 'Quandary' (and/or have a Classic mono trailer). Above, a review of the trouble. First a thank you to the various creative suggestions sent to me in reply. Some I tried, some were not possible. The fact that the stopper jammed beyond the outer bearing precluded TNT, the vacuum cleaner and sundry other modi operandi. I thought you might want a success report. I had produced a 3/16" hole in the tip of the stab, concentric with the 1-1/2" stab axle hole. Its purpose was to permit wiring an AA battery inside the end and wires to a bright LED which curved around the top of the tip to illuminate the vertical fin - airline-wise. I should have mentioned this. A word in praise of British Telecom is in order. They came to a sultry corner of Devon several (many) years ago and clipped about half a mile of beautiful 4mm Copperweld wire from adjacent poles, and tossed it into a 'kip' (movable garbage bin). Happening by, I casually asked whether it was going straight to Hades in a handcart and the reply gave me an immense coil of it. How it got to Burlington, Canada is a boring story, but it sat grinding its teeth in my basement. That is, until I realized that 4mm goes into 3/16" very handily. I cut a metre-long piece, spent some time straightening it and slid it down the little hole toward the cowardly stopper. When it stopped against the miscreant, I bopped it with my little hammer and that rotated the stopper to a diametric stance across the outer bearing. Retrieving the wire, I then applied the electrical pliers to bend a sharp 180 in the end, and then clipped that to a nasty point with the nippers. With Jenny holding the flashlight (torch) above the inboard end of the stab axle hole I cannily slid the hook past the wall of the stopper, rotated 90 degrees, yorked upward to set the hook and then wrenched the @#$%^& free. It bent obediently to the task and actually flew across the room with hardly a whimper. By this time the trailer, having been left to its fate outdoors, had collected several inches of rain down the spout and required suction, alcohol and used motor oil to stop the incipient rust. The stopper was applied and I washed my hands. Thus endeth the lesson. Cheers, Ferg 3:40 PM 3:40 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: Trigear Max Prop Size
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Seeing all this discussion about the size of prop allowable on Mono's prompts me to ask if anyone knows what the largest prop for the Tri is 62".... 64"....66"?? given the different static angles on the ground etc thanks 3:40 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2007
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Jabiropa cooling
Hi John, I don't know if this is a silly idea or not, but I remember a physics experiment once where we emptied 5 gallon jugs. One jug we set up a swirl action and compared the time to the jug that just "glugged away"... the swirling action was much faster. So, I was wondering if on your inlet if you could encourage the air to spin a little if you would stop the pressure wave, and possibly get more air into the inlet. Hope this makes sense. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Trigear Max Prop Size
Date: Sep 30, 2007
At least 70" if you make the necessary mod to the nose gear . I had a new spindle machined out of the same material as the original, which is 50mm longer. It increases the nose-up attitude on the ground by 1.6 degrees, and there is no noticable change in handling. Karl >From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> >Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Europa-List: Trigear Max Prop Size >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 08:56:38 +1000 > > >Seeing all this discussion about the size of prop allowable on Mono's >prompts me to ask if anyone knows >what the largest prop for the Tri is 62".... 64"....66"?? given the >different static angles on the ground etc > >thanks > >3:40 PM > > _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re : Tire question - cannot fly before informat
Date: Sep 30, 2007
> Time to change for a real airplane tire! (of the right size) Jos, Europa supplied me with a CARLISLE 800 x 6 x 4 ply (Golf Buggy tyre) On advice from others who have used both, I purchased a CONDOR 700 x 6 x 8 ply.Aircraft tyre (Fits Piper Aztec) With both inflated to the same pressure on the same wheel they measure Europa CARLISLE Diameter 440 mm Width 185 mm (rubs on brake calliper) Aircraft CONDOR Diameter 457 mm Width 165 mm (comfortably clears brake calliper by 10mm) My question is, WHAT IS THE RIGHT SIZE ? How can a 7.00" tyre be bigger in diameter than an 8.00" one? and No, I haven't made any mistakes with the figures above. Regards Kingsley in Oz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David.Corbett" <david.corbett5(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: The elusive stopper...
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Ah. The gospel according to St Ferg! Thank you, Ferg, for brightening an already quite sunny Sunday morning, as I struggle with balancing the Europa Club accounts! David G -BZAM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410,
IMG_04...
Date: Jan 01, 1988
I'd be interested to hear views on the suitability of the area of the SR3000 blades. This appears much larger than the competition (excepting the Rospeller)and I wonder whether it's too much for at least the 80 hp 912. Probably perfect for 914 at high altitude! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 9:59 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04... > > Carl, > > The people with tape measures don't care about it being better to land > tail down. If it's possible to plant the thing heavily on the mainwheel in > a level attitude then that's what it has to be able to cope with (from a > prop clearance point of view). > > Personally, I don't believe William's prop was 63" in diameter. From > memory, he (verbally) told me: "I asked for a 63 inch prop, and that's > what I believe I got". I don't know if he ever measured the diameter. > > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137168#137168 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Jabiropa cooling
Paul McAllister a crit : > One jug we set up a > swirl action and compared the time to the jug that just "glugged > away"... the swirling action was much faster. > > So, I was wondering if on your inlet if you could encourage the air to > spin a little if you would stop the pressure wave, and possibly get > more air into the inlet. > Paul and all, The swirl is for letting water out and air in at the same time. Hopefully in a cooling duct there is a way out for the air ! The laws of engine or radiator aerodynamics are now well established. You need a well designed inlet and diffuser at a location when air is not too disturbed and you can take advantage of its velocity to convert most of the dynamic pressure into static pressure. Behind the engine you need a convenient exit with a converging duct to convert the remaining pressure into velocity so that drag is as limited as possible. "The lip" often seen at the exit doesn't help much if the inlet is misplaced or wrongly shaped. Concerning the Jabiru, there is little room between the prop and the front cylinders to provide a correct diffuser, so the inlet must be of larger size, and the efficiency will be lower. But the engine can be adequately cooled all the same, at the price of a little more drag, of course. Some info on a well cooled Jab cowling and principles of cooling at : http://contrails.free.fr/diap/phpslideshow.php?directory=diapo_capot_rt http://contrails.free.fr/engine_aerodyn_radia_en.php http://contrails.free.fr/engine_air_inlets.php FWIW, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jabiropa cooling
Paul I'm puzzled by your reference to a "jug" !? We used to wash lemonade bottles for "return and collect 3 pence", swirling then pouring out was very effective because the air going in to replace the water going out has a smooth round hole to go through, instead of as you say, glugging. It is an interesting thought though, swirling the air going in might keep it attached to the duct and avoid the turbulence that causes the blocking. This assumes you have a nice smooth duct of course Graham Paul McAllister wrote: > > Hi John, > > I don't know if this is a silly idea or not, but I remember a physics > experiment once where we emptied 5 gallon jugs. One jug we set up a > swirl action and compared the time to the jug that just "glugged > away"... the swirling action was much faster. > > So, I was wondering if on your inlet if you could encourage the air to > spin a little if you would stop the pressure wave, and possibly get > more air into the inlet. > > Hope this makes sense. > > Paul > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
From: "h&jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Fred, Although we had purchased the long wings, they were not at the airport during the inspection. We did have the air brake control installed but the inspector really did not question the dual registration or whether we actually were building the long wings. We did tell the inspector (an FAA inspector from the Grand Rapids MI FSDO), when we submitted the paperwork prior to his inspection, that this had been done previously by Dave Anderson and he asked us to send him a copy of Dave's Airworthiness Certificate. We'd be happy to send a copy of our paperwork to anyone that needs it. Having an EFIS makes changing the airspeed range marks easy - it's a simple change in a table in the EFIS that you change on the ground when we change the wings. Not sure yet how to handle our Perpherial Software Angle Of Attack calibration. Jim Butcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137249#137249 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Woodcomp scimitar blades
Date: Sep 30, 2007
" (a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least 180 mm (for each aeroplane with nose wheel landing gear) or 230 mm (for each aeroplane with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with the landing gear statically deflected and in the level, normal take-off, or taxying attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, for each aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical means for absorbing landing shocks, there must be positive clearance between the propeller and the ground in the level take-off attitude with the critical tyre completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear strut bottomed." If my interpretation is right there have to be two checks made. You first load the aircraft up to its maximum weight and the clearance has to be in excess of 230mm, then you deflate the tyre and there should then be what they describe as "positive clearance". My question is: In the mono, is there a conventional landing gear? - and if not, are there conventional landing gear struts? (pleural?) Another query is: Rather than 'bottom' the landing gear strut, could not one calculate the geometric height equivalent and ADD a length it to the non-'critical' strut, then take the clearance measurement and subtract the calculated height to acquire the figure? It's all somewhat ethereal, what? It also occurs that when the directional control of the machine is lost, most victims ding the prop. What then is the danger of dinging the prop for a different reason (Flat tire)? I can only suppose shrapnel to onlookers... Cheers, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Trigear Max Prop Size
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
My trigear has a 66" prop and no mod of the nose gear without any noticeable problem -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137266#137266 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Jabiropa cooling
Gilles, Of course !. Had I thought about it a little more I would not have posed the question. Really nice photos of the Jab installation by the way. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades
From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
I have measured the diameter of my scimitar bladed SR3000 and it is 1645mm. My Woodcomp paperwork says 1625. Hmm. So when Conrad says they are 1650mm, he's pretty much telling the truth. As for the clearances that Ferg describes, it's fine - I measured them earlier in the year and it passes the test. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137273#137273 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_04...
From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Duncan, I think you may be right because with my 912, the coarse limit has to be set relatively fine so that I can achieve the +ve rate of climb in fully coarse that the PFA demand but that then means that it runs out of pitch if I try to cruise using less than about 4800 RPM. On the plus side, the prop does seem to pull very well at low speed - does that make sense? Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137274#137274 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: CHUCK RHOADS <cfrhoads(at)YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Jabiru 3300 cooling
I am considering buying a Jabiur 3300 engine from an estate sale. From som e of the E-mail that I have read it appears to me that the newer 3300 engin es have added more cooling fins and thus have a better handle on the coolin g. =0A=0AQUESTION: What year were these improvements made and at what ser iel number.=0A=0AThanks,=0AChuck Rhoads=0A =0A_____________________________ _____________________________=0A=0A=0A =0A___________________________ _________________________________________________________=0APinpoint custom ers who are looking for what you sell. =0Ahttp://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades
Date: Sep 30, 2007
We measured our prop/ clearances today and it dosent make good reading. Prop diameter 1575 mm (62") - standard ground adjustable Warp Drive tapered blades. Clearance from ground in level configuration (using door sills as reference) - 185 mm (230 is the minimum for VLA approval. Clearance from ground tailwheel on ground - 285 mm As Andy Draper said, the PFA wont approve any propeller on a Classic Mono in excess of 62" unless it can pass the VLA test - and it clearly can't. This is in line with what Andy told me on Friday. As to how William managed to get his prop past the PFA is a mystery. According to them it was a 63" dia blade and therefore shouldnt have been approved (as his was a Classic Mono also) . And if Conrad Beale is correct about the sizing it is more likely to be 65". It might be worth asking the PFA if they would accept an installation on the basis that they had approved one previously but I suspect the answer will be no. The next question is whether or not they will approve and Airmaster on the Classic - I know they are OK on the XS. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 4:59 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades > > I have measured the diameter of my scimitar bladed SR3000 and it is > 1645mm. My Woodcomp paperwork says 1625. Hmm. > > So when Conrad says they are 1650mm, he's pretty much telling the truth. > > As for the clearances that Ferg describes, it's fine - I measured them > earlier in the year and it passes the test. > > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137273#137273 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Woodcomp scimitar bladesThe bottoming of the landing gear strut is achieved by simply loading the Europa to its maximum permitted weight. This is effectively the same as "bottoming the landing gear strut". ----- Original Message ----- From: Fergus Kyle To: EUROPALIST Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:24 PM Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp scimitar blades " (a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least 180 mm (for each aeroplane with nose wheel landing gear) or 230 mm (for each aeroplane with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with the landing gear statically deflected and in the level, normal take-off, or taxying attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, for each aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical means for absorbing landing shocks, there must be positive clearance between the propeller and the ground in the level take-off attitude with the critical tyre completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear strut bottomed." If my interpretation is right there have to be two checks made. You first load the aircraft up to its maximum weight and the clearance has to be in excess of 230mm, then you deflate the tyre and there should then be what they describe as "positive clearance". My question is: In the mono, is there a conventional landing gear? - and if not, are there conventional landing gear struts? (pleural?) Another query is: Rather than 'bottom' the landing gear strut, could not one calculate the geometric height equivalent and ADD a length it to the non-'critical' strut, then take the clearance measurement and subtract the calculated height to acquire the figure? It's all somewhat ethereal, what? It also occurs that when the directional control of the machine is lost, most victims ding the prop. What then is the danger of dinging the prop for a different reason (Flat tire)? I can only suppose shrapnel to onlookers... Cheers, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Hi Jim I would like a copy of the paperwork please as I am going to try to have my registration amended to include "dual" purpose. Right now the inspector just copied the UK registration when he did his paperwork. So I am a single engine land, with a restriction of "no aerobatics" yeh right :-) Any help would be appreciated. Many Thanks Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of h&jeuropa Sent: 30 September 2007 13:34 Subject: Europa-List: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration Fred, Although we had purchased the long wings, they were not at the airport during the inspection. We did have the air brake control installed but the inspector really did not question the dual registration or whether we actually were building the long wings. We did tell the inspector (an FAA inspector from the Grand Rapids MI FSDO), when we submitted the paperwork prior to his inspection, that this had been done previously by Dave Anderson and he asked us to send him a copy of Dave's Airworthiness Certificate. We'd be happy to send a copy of our paperwork to anyone that needs it. Having an EFIS makes changing the airspeed range marks easy - it's a simple change in a table in the EFIS that you change on the ground when we change the wings. Not sure yet how to handle our Perpherial Software Angle Of Attack calibration. Jim Butcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137249#137249 21:46 21:46 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Subject: Re: Jabiru 3300 cooling
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
> I am considering-buying a Jabiur 3300 engine from an estate sale.- > From some of the E-mail that I have read it appears to me that the > newer 3300 engines have added more cooling fins and thus have a better > handle on the cooling.- > - > QUESTION:--What year were these improvements made and at what seriel > number. Caveat emptor Andy at Suncoast Sportplanes would have that info...try him at: Good luck, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades
From: "Ferg Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Date: Sep 30, 2007
"The bottoming of the landing gear strut is achieved by simply loading the Europa to its maximum permitted weight. This is effectively the same as "bottoming the landing gear strut". " Maybe, but I don't think so. Take that combination and thump it onto paved runway and I'll bet the landing gear strut finds a whole new "bottom" - and I'll bet that's to what the regulation refers........... Ferg Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades
Date: Jan 01, 1988
Carl, As I understand it, William more or less bullied Woodcomp in to making the SR3000 and was the first to try it out. Therefore it is possible that they made one to the diameter that he wanted. Duncan McF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades > > > We measured our prop/ clearances today and it dosent make good reading. > > Prop diameter 1575 mm (62") - standard ground adjustable Warp Drive > tapered blades. > > Clearance from ground in level configuration (using door sills as > reference) - 185 mm (230 is the minimum for VLA approval. > Clearance from ground tailwheel on ground - 285 mm > > As Andy Draper said, the PFA wont approve any propeller on a Classic Mono > in excess of 62" unless it can pass the VLA test - and it clearly can't. > This is in line with what Andy told me on Friday. > > As to how William managed to get his prop past the PFA is a mystery. > According to them it was a 63" dia blade and therefore shouldnt have been > approved (as his was a Classic Mono also) . And if Conrad Beale is correct > about the sizing it is more likely to be 65". > > It might be worth asking the PFA if they would accept an installation on > the basis that they had approved one previously but I suspect the answer > will be no. > > The next question is whether or not they will approve and Airmaster on the > Classic - I know they are OK on the XS. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com> > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 4:59 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades > > >> >> I have measured the diameter of my scimitar bladed SR3000 and it is >> 1645mm. My Woodcomp paperwork says 1625. Hmm. >> >> So when Conrad says they are 1650mm, he's pretty much telling the truth. >> >> As for the clearances that Ferg describes, it's fine - I measured them >> earlier in the year and it passes the test. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137273#137273 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Exhaust exit spacing
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Hello, This afternoon's task was to poke a hole through the lower cowling to permit the extension of the exhaust stack to experience fresh air. I have done this accurately in spite of being certain that measurement and cutting was at best a mug's game. I am erecting a message with photos to explain this job, as have amazed myself by doing it. If you found it a simple task any fool can do, I don't want to hear about it. In the process of admiring the stub sticking exactly 1/8" from its concentric hole, it suddenly occurred to me that it's on a bouncing engine and the cowl is not. I don't want to hear about that, either. Nonetheless I now appeal - to those in the know - what sort of leeway all around this triumph must I leave to prevent burning and chafing of the cowl? Is 1/4" enough - 5/16"? - 3/8"? I guess the engine can wriggle all around the clock but suspect it prefers to nod in answer to my landings and their excuses - rough turf predominantly. Your experiences and suggestions heartily welcomed. Happy landings, Ferg Wiring wiring PS: I prefer a reply here rather than on the owners' web as it refuses my sign-in about 50% of the tries. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Al Stills" <astills(at)cox.net>
Subject: Jabiru 3300 cooling
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Chuck, I'm pretty sure the Jabiru engines above 960 have the added fins and Hydraulic lifters. Mine is in the 760's and with Andy's Europa cowl and a lot of tinkering with the airflow cools just fine. I did a little trip around the pattern today 85 deg's F , high rear cylinder in climb -321 Degs. Level out and all balanced out at 300 or less. Oil temp was well within limits. It's taken me about 6 months of adjusting to get to these figures so it does take some tinkering but is doable and flyable. I'll have to wait for another hot day here in Phoenix to see how it does. BTW my cooling problems have been mostly on taxi, and I got to 300 on taxi today. Only had about a 10 min hold before taking off. Al Stills N625AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm-systems.fi>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Sep 30, 2007
Thanks Karel for measurement 7 mm is great - I have now 5-6 mm left and the reinforcement material I hope. Please confirm you measured Titan Turf Glide Tire! Earlier I asked some recommendations for mono tire and a great majority of you suggested me to install size 7.00-6 and AirTrac was a clear winner. So my conclusion is it cannot be worse than the original golf car tire (golf cars max taxi speed is about 10 knots, it has four tires and the weight /tire is less than 150 kg /340 lbs - when touching Europas speed is 5 times more and weight 2,5 times more + G-forces). I believe aircraft quality tire size 8.00-6 does not hit normally caliber because of its overall quality and accurate measurements. Tolerance is anyway minimal between it and caliber. Non-aircraft tires may hit bacause of the varies in quality and their limp sides. Same reason for Kingleys differencies with diameters. My wife suggests one reason for the contact: my caliber is maybe just bigger than normal one ! Karel, S landings or even SS-landings are better than U or L -landings. I saw one L-landing in Aalborg Denmark 9/9/07. It was SAS`s Dash 8 full of passengers and right side gear collapsed. I cannot understand why they did not land to the grass in the clean configuration. It was awful to see but happily no fatals. Anyway I will go on flying with this tire to the end of this flying season. I promise I stop landing if reinforcement material is visible or even inner tire. And have a CM- DOTH with Jos (caliber measurement). Thanks for comments, all of you. Raimo, OH-XRT (with big caliber) ----- Original Message ----- From: "karelvranken" <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > > > Dear Raimo, > The tickness of the tire side is 7 mm. From the inside it looks like > fabric impression, so I suppose it is reinforced. 3) yes. 4) So far I have > no experience and I will not do it for you. > S landings occur when you drink Koskenkorva vodka before flight. > SS landings happened during WWII. > Friendly yours, > Karel Vranken > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> > To: > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:12 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > > >> 1) what is the exact thickness of the original >> tire side? Somebody has an uninstalled tire /tyre >> - please could he measure it? >> >> 2) are there some reinforcement material in the sides also >> as Jos suppose? I am talking about Titan Turf Glide tire. >> >> 3) why I have some slightly contact with tire and brake calliber? >> Is it only my problem? If I change to the size 7.00-6, >> that contact is away - am I right? >> >> 4) what happens when landing with empty mono main wheel? >> Or when it bangs during first touch? >> Total catastrophe or what? >> If so I hope nobody know! >> >> Have a nice weekend, Raimo >> =================== >> OH-XRT #417, flying w broken main tire... >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "karelvranken" <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Raimo, The measurements were done on Titan Turf Glide tire that I didn't use. The tire on my mono is a Condor. Karel Vranken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm-systems.fi> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:06 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > <raimo.toivio@rwm-systems.fi> > > Thanks Karel for measurement > > 7 mm is great - I have now 5-6 mm > left and the reinforcement material I hope. > Please confirm you measured > Titan Turf Glide Tire! > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2007
From: Rman <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust exit spacing
Ferg, my trigear exhaust clears the hole by about 1/4". No rubbing or burning to report... Jeff - Baby Blue 333 hrs Fergus Kyle wrote: > > Hello, > This afternoon's task was to poke a hole through the lower cowling > to permit the extension of the exhaust stack to experience fresh air. I have > done this accurately in spite of being certain that measurement and cutting > was at best a mug's game. I am erecting a message with photos to explain > this job, as have amazed myself by doing it. If you found it a simple task > any fool can do, I don't want to hear about it. > In the process of admiring the stub sticking exactly 1/8" from its > concentric hole, it suddenly occurred to me that it's on a bouncing engine > and the cowl is not. > I don't want to hear about that, either. > Nonetheless I now appeal - to those in the know - what sort of > leeway all around this triumph must I leave to prevent burning and chafing > of the cowl? Is 1/4" enough - 5/16"? - 3/8"? > I guess the engine can wriggle all around the clock but suspect it > prefers to nod in answer to my landings and their excuses - rough turf > predominantly. Your experiences and suggestions heartily welcomed. > Happy landings, > Ferg > Wiring wiring > PS: I prefer a reply here rather than on the owners' web as it refuses my > sign-in about 50% of the tries. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411)
Date: Oct 01, 2007
John, You may be interested in the attached flight test data for William Mills' comparison of his Woodcomp SR2000 and a SR3000. Regards, David Joyce ----- Original Message ----- From: <JohnDHeykoop(at)aol.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) > > In a message dated 23/09/2007 18:04:27 GMT Standard Time, > carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk writes: > > Hi Bob, > > I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades. > > What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you > finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance. > Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller. > > We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is > > something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only > other one I was aware of. > > Carl Pattinson > G_LABS > > PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation. > > > Carl & others interested in Woodcomp Scimitar blades for the monowheel Europa > > I too was briefly interested in the Woodcomp propeller with scimitar blades, > but have now bought an Airmaster propeller. In the UK the 65" (1650mm) > diameter of the Woodcomp scimitar blades is an issue, the normal maximum for the > monowheel Europa being 64" (1625mm). William Mills had scimitar blades fitted > to his mono, but according to the PFA his propeller was only 63" . I suppose > William's propeller must have been an early prototype. > > The PFA will only allow you to fit a propeller of more than 64" diameter if > you can show compliance with CS-VLA925. In order to do that you will have to > demonstrate that the ground clearance from the propeller tip, with the > aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat tyre, is at least 230mm. > You don't actually have to deflate the tyre, for you can simply subtract the > distance from the rim to the ground from your ground clearance measurement. > > If you think the scimitar blades are worth all this hassle it would be > prudent to make sure that you are going to get at least 230mm ground clearance > before you place an order. That means doing the measurements twice, once before > you order the propeller, and the second time once you have the scimitar > blades fitted. > > You can, of course, buy the Woodcomp propeller with standard blades. If you > go this route, get one with the Smart Avionics controller. Woodcomp know how > to make good propellers, but their controller has a poor reputation. > > Hope this helps > > John > Europa XS monowheel G-JHKP (Rotax 912S + Airmaster CS, 2200 build hours > todate - hopefully I will be flying next summer) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_041
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Jos, you mentioned that the Airmaster was heavier than the Woodcomp. On the Conair sports website Woodcomp is shown as 12.95 KG as against 12.1 KG on the Europa 2004 site for the Airmaster? What am I reading wrong? Any advice you can give me would be appreciated. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Subject: Jab cooling
In a message dated 10/1/2007 2:58:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: Concerning the Jabiru, there is little room between the prop and the front cylinders to provide a correct diffuser, so the inlet must be of larger size, and the efficiency will be lower. But the engine can be adequately cooled all the same, at the price of a little more drag, of course. Hi Gilles and all, I've had a chance to test my turbulators installed at the mouth of my left cooling intake and they worked exceedingly well. I've seen, on average, a 25F drop in CHT's on the left side now that I have turbulated the airflow entering the left side intake. One cylinder dropped 45F and went from being the second hottest of the six to the coolest. Interestingly, the engine is now running in the 240F-260F range on all CHT's, but the delta pressure did not change! This has left me with the impression that all this talk about 6" of water column being needed for adequate cooling is a bunch of bullshit put forth by the engine manufacturers to make you go away and be quiet. I still have 3" WC on the right at cruise and the hottest CHT is about 250F. The coolest CHT on the right is 219F in cruise. I still have 5" of WC at cruise on the left side and the highest CHT is now about 260F, down from 295F on the hottest cylinder in cruise. The coolest on the left is now 235F, down from 275F prior to the turbulators. All of my testing results indicate that pressure is the absence of flow, not a sign of flow. Internal cooling duct pressure, measured against static pressure inside the cowl, seems to be have an inverse relationship to flow, if indeed it has any relationship at all. My test results show pressure is meaningless and FLOW is what we're after. I think ultimately what I'm going to do here is dimple the area around my intake ducts like a golf ball. The zigzag tape is ugly and I can't think of a way to make it pretty, so I think dimples are the answer. Should make for quite a conversation piece, don't you think? Clearly, Andy Silvester used the Lancair cowls as a model for his Europa cowl set. I've studied close up pictures of the Lancair cowl to try and find out what the difference between the two really is. The only thing I notice is the Lancair inlets protrude about 1" farther in front of the cowl than mine do., I think this has something to do with the pressure wave I've observed in front of my left intake with my crude string tests. So Gilles, you are likley correct in your analysis. FWIW, every Sonex cooling suggestion I've tried has lead to hotter, not cooler temps. So, Jabiropaphiles, my suggestion is don't bother with anything Sonex has to say. The moral of this story is: for better FLOW, excite the area just outside the hole. Almost pornographic, isn't it? (notice how I didn't say for better PRESSURE?) Now, I'm back to analysis of boundary flow on the wings....... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_041
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Hi Steve, That's strange, The SR3000 is quoted on the Woodcomp site as 12 kg. I remembered to have seen some 30% ! weight difference. Must have been looking in the wrong place. But i still, after 47 hrs, think it's a very nice behaving propeller. i have been up FL128, where the coarse limit was met with 135 knots IAS. Forgot the reverse switch in unreverse, max rev only 4400 and still got airborne and climbing with 2 pax on board. Nice test, although it came unexpectedly :-) The position of that switch is now on the checklist. And, as i said before, it's smooth, you would have to feel the difference! Maybe, if the weather and paperwork allows, i will visit the UK on our holiday. Will keep you posted! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Al Stills" <astills(at)cox.net>
Subject: Jab cooling
Date: Oct 01, 2007
John, Do you think you could take p picture and attach it so we could see the tape on the front of the cowls. Al Stills N625Az From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 6:30 AM Subject: Europa-List: Jab cooling In a message dated 10/1/2007 2:58:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: Concerning the Jabiru, there is little room between the prop and the front cylinders to provide a correct diffuser, so the inlet must be of larger size, and the efficiency will be lower. But the engine can be adequately cooled all the same, at the price of a little more drag, of course. Hi Gilles and all, I've had a chance to test my turbulators installed at the mouth of my left cooling intake and they worked exceedingly well. I've seen, on average, a 25F drop in CHT's on the left side now that I have turbulated the airflow entering the left side intake. One cylinder dropped 45F and went from being the second hottest of the six to the coolest. Interestingly, the engine is now running in the 240F-260F range on all CHT's, but the delta pressure did not change! This has left me with the impression that all this talk about 6" of water column being needed for adequate cooling is a bunch of bullshit put forth by the engine manufacturers to make you go away and be quiet. I still have 3" WC on the right at cruise and the hottest CHT is about 250F. The coolest CHT on the right is 219F in cruise. I still have 5" of WC at cruise on the left side and the highest CHT is now about 260F, down from 295F on the hottest cylinder in cruise. The coolest on the left is now 235F, down from 275F prior to the turbulators. All of my testing results indicate that pressure is the absence of flow, not a sign of flow. Internal cooling duct pressure, measured against static pressure inside the cowl, seems to be have an inverse relationship to flow, if indeed it has any relationship at all. My test results show pressure is meaningless and FLOW is what we're after. I think ultimately what I'm going to do here is dimple the area around my intake ducts like a golf ball. The zigzag tape is ugly and I can't think of a way to make it pretty, so I think dimples are the answer. Should make for quite a conversation piece, don't you think? Clearly, Andy Silvester used the Lancair cowls as a model for his Europa cowl set. I've studied close up pictures of the Lancair cowl to try and find out what the difference between the two really is. The only thing I notice is the Lancair inlets protrude about 1" farther in front of the cowl than mine do., I think this has something to do with the pressure wave I've observed in front of my left intake with my crude string tests. So Gilles, you are likley correct in your analysis. FWIW, every Sonex cooling suggestion I've tried has lead to hotter, not cooler temps. So, Jabiropaphiles, my suggestion is don't bother with anything Sonex has to say. The moral of this story is: for better FLOW, excite the area just outside the hole. Almost pornographic, isn't it? (notice how I didn't say for better PRESSURE?) Now, I'm back to analysis of boundary flow on the wings....... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying _____ See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <brian.lonnon(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Hi John, Could you provide a picture of your turbulator please? Thanks Brian G-BYFG XS trigear, Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:30 PM Subject: Europa-List: Jab cooling In a message dated 10/1/2007 2:58:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: Concerning the Jabiru, there is little room between the prop and the front cylinders to provide a correct diffuser, so the inlet must be of larger size, and the efficiency will be lower. But the engine can be adequately cooled all the same, at the price of a little more drag, of course. Hi Gilles and all, I've had a chance to test my turbulators installed at the mouth of my left cooling intake and they worked exceedingly well. I've seen, on average, a 25F drop in CHT's on the left side now that I have turbulated the airflow entering the left side intake. One cylinder dropped 45F and went from being the second hottest of the six to the coolest. Interestingly, the engine is now running in the 240F-260F range on all CHT's, but the delta pressure did not change! This has left me with the impression that all this talk about 6" of water column being needed for adequate cooling is a bunch of bullshit put forth by the engine manufacturers to make you go away and be quiet. I still have 3" WC on the right at cruise and the hottest CHT is about 250F. The coolest CHT on the right is 219F in cruise. I still have 5" of WC at cruise on the left side and the highest CHT is now about 260F, down from 295F on the hottest cylinder in cruise. The coolest on the left is now 235F, down from 275F prior to the turbulators. All of my testing results indicate that pressure is the absence of flow, not a sign of flow. Internal cooling duct pressure, measured against static pressure inside the cowl, seems to be have an inverse relationship to flow, if indeed it has any relationship at all. My test results show pressure is meaningless and FLOW is what we're after. I think ultimately what I'm going to do here is dimple the area around my intake ducts like a golf ball. The zigzag tape is ugly and I can't think of a way to make it pretty, so I think dimples are the answer. Should make for quite a conversation piece, don't you think? Clearly, Andy Silvester used the Lancair cowls as a model for his Europa cowl set. I've studied close up pictures of the Lancair cowl to try and find out what the difference between the two really is. The only thing I notice is the Lancair inlets protrude about 1" farther in front of the cowl than mine do., I think this has something to do with the pressure wave I've observed in front of my left intake with my crude string tests. So Gilles, you are likley correct in your analysis. FWIW, every Sonex cooling suggestion I've tried has lead to hotter, not cooler temps. So, Jabiropaphiles, my suggestion is don't bother with anything Sonex has to say. The moral of this story is: for better FLOW, excite the area just outside the hole. Almost pornographic, isn't it? (notice how I didn't say for better PRESSURE?) Now, I'm back to analysis of boundary flow on the wings....... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 9/29/2007 21:46 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "D.Hetrick" <gdh(at)isp.com>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Hi John, I want to add to Al Stills request of showing us how you made and installed the turbulators. Sounds like an interesting approach to my cooling problems. I did put an "eyebrow" on the left air intake but it didn't seem to make much difference. Thank you. Dale Hetrick ----- Original Message ----- From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 6:30 AM Subject: Europa-List: Jab cooling In a message dated 10/1/2007 2:58:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: Concerning the Jabiru, there is little room between the prop and the front cylinders to provide a correct diffuser, so the inlet must be of larger size, and the efficiency will be lower. But the engine can be adequately cooled all the same, at the price of a little more drag, of course. Hi Gilles and all, I've had a chance to test my turbulators installed at the mouth of my left cooling intake and they worked exceedingly well. I've seen, on average, a 25F drop in CHT's on the left side now that I have turbulated the airflow entering the left side intake. One cylinder dropped 45F and went from being the second hottest of the six to the coolest. Interestingly, the engine is now running in the 240F-260F range on all CHT's, but the delta pressure did not change! This has left me with the impression that all this talk about 6" of water column being needed for adequate cooling is a bunch of bullshit put forth by the engine manufacturers to make you go away and be quiet. I still have 3" WC on the right at cruise and the hottest CHT is about 250F. The coolest CHT on the right is 219F in cruise. I still have 5" of WC at cruise on the left side and the highest CHT is now about 260F, down from 295F on the hottest cylinder in cruise. The coolest on the left is now 235F, down from 275F prior to the turbulators. All of my testing results indicate that pressure is the absence of flow, not a sign of flow. Internal cooling duct pressure, measured against static pressure inside the cowl, seems to be have an inverse relationship to flow, if indeed it has any relationship at all. My test results show pressure is meaningless and FLOW is what we're after. I think ultimately what I'm going to do here is dimple the area around my intake ducts like a golf ball. The zigzag tape is ugly and I can't think of a way to make it pretty, so I think dimples are the answer. Should make for quite a conversation piece, don't you think? Clearly, Andy Silvester used the Lancair cowls as a model for his Europa cowl set. I've studied close up pictures of the Lancair cowl to try and find out what the difference between the two really is. The only thing I notice is the Lancair inlets protrude about 1" farther in front of the cowl than mine do., I think this has something to do with the pressure wave I've observed in front of my left intake with my crude string tests. So Gilles, you are likley correct in your analysis. FWIW, every Sonex cooling suggestion I've tried has lead to hotter, not cooler temps. So, Jabiropaphiles, my suggestion is don't bother with anything Sonex has to say. The moral of this story is: for better FLOW, excite the area just outside the hole. Almost pornographic, isn't it? (notice how I didn't say for better PRESSURE?) Now, I'm back to analysis of boundary flow on the wings....... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JohnDHeykoop(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Subject: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411)
In a message dated 01/10/2007 10:48:44 GMT Standard Time, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk writes: John, You may be interested in the attached flight test data for William Mills' comparison of his Woodcomp SR2000 and a SR3000. Regards, David Joyce Thanks David. I had seen these flight test data (I think they were attached to one of William's postings). The figures for the SR3000/3 look pretty good. However, as mentioned earlier, the 1650mm diameter issue caused me to buy an Airmaster propeller instead. John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
> In a message dated 10/1/2007 2:58:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: > > Concerning the Jabiru, there is little room between the prop and the > front cylinders to provide a correct diffuser, so the inlet must be of > larger size, and the efficiency will be lower. > But the engine can be adequately cooled all the same, at the price of a > little more drag, of course. On Monday, October 1, 2007, at 06:30 AM, TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com wrote: > - > I've had a chance to test my turbulators installed at the mouth of my > left cooling intake and they-worked exceedingly well. I've seen, on > average, a 25F drop in CHT's on the left side now that I have > turbulated the airflow entering the left side intake. One cylinder > dropped-45F and went from being the-second hottest of the six to the > coolest.-Interestingly, the engine is now running in the 240F-260F > range on all CHT's, but the delta pressure-did not change! > Clearly, Andy Silvester used the Lancair cowls as a model for his > Europa cowl set. I've studied close up-pictures of the Lancair cowl to > try and find out what the difference between the two really-is. The > only thing I notice is the Lancair inlets protrude about-1"-farther i n > front of the cowl than mine do.,- I think this has something to do > with the pressure wave I've observed in front of my left intake with > my crude string tests. So Gilles, you are likley correct in your > analysis. As a (at this point at least) probable Jab buyer, I've been following this thread w/ interest. Up til now, I had assumed that the difference between right and left side cooling issues was a consequence of the difference in prop wash. I've also assumed that references to "right" and "left" were to starboard and port, i.e., as seen from the cockpit rather than say from the front of the engine looking aft. I believe that the protrusions around the circumference of the Lancair cowl inlets are intended to minimize the effects of prop wash on air entering the inlets. Also, from the pictures I've seen of the Suncoast/Jab air ducting, it appears that the port and starboard ducts have identical (but opposite hand) shapes which do not appear to factor in the front to rear offsets of the port/starboard cylinder banks. It just now occurs to me (after reviewing Giles's Contrails articles referenced previously) that the difference in distance between the inlets and the first cylinders seen by air entering the port and starboard ducts may be of equal or even greater importance...and may be the source of the differential in port/starboard cooling effectiveness. This is conjecture on my part, and of course no substitute for the rigorous testing John L. has done; still, it might be nice to get to the heart of the problem. Please comment at will! Incidentally Giles, 2 of the 3 articles you referenced come up in french; could you offer any clues as to how I could view them in english? Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
Fred Klein a crit : > Incidentally Giles, 2 of the 3 articles you referenced come up in > french; could you offer any clues as to how I could view them in english? Fred, In the future all the articles will be in English. But it takes time for a non natural English speaker/writer. Now if there is a massive demand about a specific page, I might put it on the front burner... Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Constant Speed newbie question
From: "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net>
Date: Oct 01, 2007
Hi, While waiting for my constant speed to arrive, i have been looking at the manifold preassure gauges and found that they are available withe different scales - 35" or 50" FSD, cannont find any reference anywhere on manufactures blurb or the rotax installation manual as to which is needed, i've got the run of the mill standard 912S, can anyone shed any light? Steve Vestuti #573 G-CEBV Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: Richard Holder <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Constant Speed newbie question
35 is fine, 50 only needed for 914 - the turbo ! Normal pressure is as high as it goes with the 912S - around 30. steve v wrote: > > Hi, > While waiting for my constant speed to arrive, i have been > looking at the manifold preassure gauges and found that > they are available withe different scales - 35" or 50" FSD, > cannont find any reference anywhere on manufactures blurb > or the rotax installation manual as to which is needed, > i've got the run of the mill standard 912S, can anyone > shed any light? > > Steve Vestuti #573 G-CEBV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
Gilles you are a gentleman. Your english is as good as mine! Wish my french was half as good {{:-( Graham Gilles Thesee wrote: > <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > Fred Klein a crit : > >> Incidentally Giles, 2 of the 3 articles you referenced come up in >> french; could you offer any clues as to how I could view them in english? > > > Fred, > > In the future all the articles will be in English. But it takes time for > a non natural English speaker/writer. > Now if there is a massive demand about a specific page, I might put it > on the front burner... > > Best regards, -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: CS Propeller Weight
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl.pattinson(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2007
How much weight does adding a CS/ VP propeller actually add to an installation. For example an average VP prop is about 12.3 kg but if you are removing a ground adjustable prop what is the actual weight increase. I don't really want to remove our fixed prop to find out so does anyone know how much a standard Warp Drive assembly weighs. Carl Pattinson G-LABS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137506#137506 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: CS Propeller Weight
Carl, I believe that the Warp Drive is around 7 lbs... Jeff Carl Pattinson wrote: > > How much weight does adding a CS/ VP propeller actually add to an installation. > > For example an average VP prop is about 12.3 kg but if you are removing a ground adjustable prop what is the actual weight increase. > > I don't really want to remove our fixed prop to find out so does anyone know how much a standard Warp Drive assembly weighs. > > Carl Pattinson > G-LABS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137506#137506 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2007
From: Rick Stockton <aireupora(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
BabelFish works fairly well. http://babelfish.altavista.com/ Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> wrote: Fred Klein a crit : > Incidentally Giles, 2 of the 3 articles you referenced come up in > french; could you offer any clues as to how I could view them in english? Fred, In the future all the articles will be in English. But it takes time for a non natural English speaker/writer. Now if there is a massive demand about a specific page, I might put it on the front burner... Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
John thanks for your fascinating test results. I too am very puzzled by the apparent lack of effectiveness of Pressure. Air will only move from hi P to Low P, (apart from Coriolis effects of course, witness circulation round cyclones) I wonder if your turbulator is helping keep the flow attached over the whole of the outside of the cowl? That might reduce the pressure around the outlet at the back and that is what is important as we all know but can't quite understand (how to make it better I mean) In flight the flow over the cowl will be quite assymetric Thoughts Gilles? Graham TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/1/2007 2:58:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: > > /Concerning the Jabiru, there is little room between the prop and the > front cylinders to provide a correct diffuser, so the inlet must be of > larger size, and the efficiency will be lower. > But the engine can be adequately cooled all the same, at the price of a > little more drag, of course./ > > > Hi Gilles and all, > > I've had a chance to test my turbulators installed at the mouth of my > left cooling intake and they worked exceedingly well. I've seen, on > average, a 25F drop in CHT's on the left side now that I have turbulated > the airflow entering the left side intake. > > The moral of this story is: for better /FLOW/, excite the area just > outside the hole. Almost pornographic, isn't it? (notice how I didn't > say for better /PRESSURE/?) > > Now, I'm back to analysis of boundary flow on the wings....... > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - Flying > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Constant Speed newbie question
From: "steve v " <s.vestuti(at)virgin.net>
Date: Oct 02, 2007
OK, Thanks, 35 it is then! Steve Vestuti #573 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
Graham Singleton a crit : > Your english is as good as mine! Wish my french was half as good {{:-( Graham, Blushing with embarrassment ;-) Thank you for your kind message. I already updated the English version of the Cowling slideshows. Any corrections concerning style, spelling, grammar, etc. are welcome. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2007
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
> I wonder if your turbulator is helping keep the flow attached over the > whole of the outside of the cowl? That might reduce the pressure > around the outlet at the back and that is what is important as we all > know but can't quite understand (how to make it better I mean) > In flight the flow over the cowl will be quite assymetric > Thoughts Gilles? Graham, John and all, A little busy at the moment, so I may have missed some detail on John's setup. I'm naturally much interested in any successful engine installation. John, did you provide a link to your engine installation ? Sorry if I missed the obvious. Please continue to give info, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Gregory" <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Jab cooling
Date: Oct 03, 2007
I recall that in 1995 I asked the late Richard Cabrinha why he had changed from a chin intake to a pair of Lo-Presti style circular intakes on his Free Spirit Mark II, for cooling a Continental IO 360, and he replied "because they work!" He told me that if the diameter were too large then there would be a reverse flow, spilling air out round the circumference of each intake. He refined the size by putting some oil around each rim and doing a quick circuit: inspection on landing showed whether the oil film had spread inwards or migrated outwards, and he would then the repeat the test with different diameters accordingly. For those on HTML, here is a picture of the final result: It may not have been the most scientific way of finding the right size, but he claimed that it worked. I have no information on the distribution of air and temperature levels for the six cylinders. He did however incorporate cowl flaps, one on each side at the rear of the cowling (the starboard one is visible in the picture), which he said he would like to eliminate in due course to simplify the design with a fixed outlet area. Best regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Sent: 02 October 2007 22:22 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jab cooling <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > I wonder if your turbulator is helping keep the flow attached over the > whole of the outside of the cowl? That might reduce the pressure > around the outlet at the back and that is what is important as we all > know but can't quite understand (how to make it better I mean) > In flight the flow over the cowl will be quite assymetric > Thoughts Gilles? Graham, John and all, A little busy at the moment, so I may have missed some detail on John's setup. I'm naturally much interested in any successful engine installation. John, did you provide a link to your engine installation ? Sorry if I missed the obvious. Please continue to give info, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2007
From: "ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Communication short term.....
Hi! All I have a major computer failure probably due to being like a squirrel with my filling !(according tomy son anyway !) Any urgent messages will have to be by phone 07973 832741. In the short term I can collect e-mails week day mornings from my son's computer until my Tiscali account gets too full for the same reason ! and until I get the beast sorted out ... need this problem as much as a hole in the head at present. But at least my daily trips to Lincoln Hospital can be now put to better use ! Those with continued interest in my Torque tube clamp mod will either have to await my resssurection or use the pne number above, please. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG __________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband only 7.99 a month for your first 3 months! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: A rare message.....
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Hello, We often see complaints regarding after-sales service of some of the people who accept our money in exchange for their goods/services, I'd like to counter that with good news. Last Tuesday, 25SEP 07, as I was passing close to the front of the engine, my sleeve caught one of the sintered brushes which are meant to engage the rotating rings of my Woodcomp 3000-3 prop (not instralled). It snapped the brush in half - just another trifling reverse, as I went to bed shaking my head. The next morning I emailed Jiri Holoubek near Prague with a sketch and description of what had happened. By now it was 4pm his time. I received an email reply about 1-1/2 hours later to say he would send a replacement. It arrived this morning in the mail (two replacements) with the date-stamp showing "27.09.07" as the posting. He must have arranged to post it that afternoon. You can't ask for more than that, especially on a small item that couldn't have much profit to it. I thought you should know. Cheers, ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: A rare message.....
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Hi ferg, That is amazing. I had the same happen to me and it took about 4 weeks to get the replacement. Karl >From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> >Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >To: "EUROPALIST" >Subject: Europa-List: A rare message..... >Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:00:54 -0400 > > >Hello, > We often see complaints regarding after-sales service of some of the >people who accept our money in exchange for their goods/services, > I'd like to counter that with good news. > Last Tuesday, 25SEP 07, as I was passing close to the front of the >engine, my sleeve caught one of the sintered brushes which are meant to >engage the rotating rings of my Woodcomp 3000-3 prop (not instralled). It >snapped the brush in half - just another trifling reverse, as I went to bed >shaking my head. > The next morning I emailed Jiri Holoubek near Prague with a sketch >and description of what had happened. By now it was 4pm his time. I >received >an email reply about 1-1/2 hours later to say he would send a replacement. > It arrived this morning in the mail (two replacements) with the >date-stamp showing "27.09.07" as the posting. He must have arranged to post >it that afternoon. > You can't ask for more than that, especially on a small item that >couldn't have much profit to it. I thought you should know. >Cheers, ferg > > _________________________________________________________________ Can you see your house from the sky? Try Live Search Maps http://maps.live.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 03, 2007
Subject: Jab cooling
In a message dated 10/3/2007 3:00:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: I recall that in 1995 I asked the late Richard Cabrinha why he had changed from a chin intake to a pair of Lo-Presti style circular intakes on his Free Spirit Mark II, for cooling a Continental IO 360, and he replied "because they work!" He told me that if the diameter were too large then there would be a reverse flow, spilling air out round the circumference of each intake. He refined the size by putting some oil around each rim and doing a quick circuit: inspection on landing showed whether the oil film had spread inwards or migrated outwards, and he would then the repeat the test with different diameters accordingly. Hi Mike, Graham, and all, That is essentially what I've done with my string testing, although I wasn't aware that size had much to do with it (Typical male, huh?) I've not played with changing the size of the intake at all. It does seem like 25 square inches of intake should be more than adequate for cooling this little engine, though. . What I've seen in my string tests is an apparent low pressure area forming on the outboard side of the left intake as viewed from the cockpit. I've also noticed an apparent high pressure area directly in front of the inlet when my turbulators are not installed and this high pressure "bubble" rejects the string as it approaches the intake from upwind. At one point it turns the string 180 degrees and it blows towards the fan. Installing turbulators at the lip of the intake helped considerably. I went from about 50% of the intake "accepting" the string, to what I'd estimate as about 80% now accepting the string in the intake. Still not perfect, but I'm still playing with it, too. What I have seen in terms of engine cooling has been dramatic, though. I need to dig up the Lo-Presti info and take a look at it. That's about the fifth time somebody has mentioned that name to me. An A&P friend of mine stopped by my shop yesterday and I showed him what I was doing. He's also a glider pilot and amateur aerodynamicist. We also discussed exit cooling flow. The trigear has a rather large triangle shaped reinforcing piece on the nosegear leg just below and outside the line of the cowl. This triangle is flat to the relative wind, probably worse at climb angles, and I would reckon that it causes some disturbance right where the cooling air from the cowl is trying to exit. Whether or not that is interfering with my cooling flow remains to be determined, but it sure looks like it could use a fairing to split the flow, hopefully accelerating it and causing a low pressure area in that region. It stands to reason that cleaning up this area with a fairing might help create a bit of suction and aid cooling flow, too. Graham said: I wonder if your turbulator is helping keep the flow attached over the whole of the outside of the cowl? I'm thinking you are correct in your assessment there, Graham. I think "re-exciting" the flow is indeed causing it to stay attached. FWIW, I've done some tuft testing on my wings and I seem to have laminar flow at least as far back as the hinge line of the aileron. The wing tip is much cleaner than I anticipated, too. There are very few modern sailplanes that get this level of laminar flow that far back on the wing. Shaw and Dykins are obviously genius'. I don't have enough knowledge on the subject to really know one way or the other how internal duct pressure is related to flow, but my tests seem to indicate that there is either no relationship, or the relationship is inverse. If you think about it, restricting the flow would cause higher pressure, just as it does when you put your finger on the end of a running garden hose. The pressure increases, but the flow decreases. That seems to be what is happening here. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jab cooling
Date: Oct 03, 2007
John, You could also try: "An investigation of the aerodynamics and cooling of horizontally opposed engine installation" SJ Miley. SAE 1977. Which contains velocity ratio investigations for a number of different nostril shapes, including 'LoPresti' style. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:16 PM Subject: Europa-List: Jab cooling In a message dated 10/3/2007 3:00:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: I recall that in 1995 I asked the late Richard Cabrinha why he had changed from a chin intake to a pair of Lo-Presti style circular intakes on his Free Spirit Mark II, for cooling a Continental IO 360, and he replied "because they work!" He told me that if the diameter were too large then there would be a reverse flow, spilling air out round the circumference of each intake. He refined the size by putting some oil around each rim and doing a quick circuit: inspection on landing showed whether the oil film had spread inwards or migrated outwards, and he would then the repeat the test with different diameters accordingly. Hi Mike, Graham, and all, That is essentially what I've done with my string testing, although I wasn't aware that size had much to do with it (Typical male, huh?) I've not played with changing the size of the intake at all. It does seem like 25 square inches of intake should be more than adequate for cooling this little engine, though. . What I've seen in my string tests is an apparent low pressure area forming on the outboard side of the left intake as viewed from the cockpit. I've also noticed an apparent high pressure area directly in front of the inlet when my turbulators are not installed and this high pressure "bubble" rejects the string as it approaches the intake from upwind. At one point it turns the string 180 degrees and it blows towards the fan. Installing turbulators at the lip of the intake helped considerably. I went from about 50% of the intake "accepting" the string, to what I'd estimate as about 80% now accepting the string in the intake. Still not perfect, but I'm still playing with it, too. What I have seen in terms of engine cooling has been dramatic, though. I need to dig up the Lo-Presti info and take a look at it. That's about the fifth time somebody has mentioned that name to me. An A&P friend of mine stopped by my shop yesterday and I showed him what I was doing. He's also a glider pilot and amateur aerodynamicist. We also discussed exit cooling flow. The trigear has a rather large triangle shaped reinforcing piece on the nosegear leg just below and outside the line of the cowl. This triangle is flat to the relative wind, probably worse at climb angles, and I would reckon that it causes some disturbance right where the cooling air from the cowl is trying to exit. Whether or not that is interfering with my cooling flow remains to be determined, but it sure looks like it could use a fairing to split the flow, hopefully accelerating it and causing a low pressure area in that region. It stands to reason that cleaning up this area with a fairing might help create a bit of suction and aid cooling flow, too. Graham said: I wonder if your turbulator is helping keep the flow attached over the whole of the outside of the cowl? I'm thinking you are correct in your assessment there, Graham. I think "re-exciting" the flow is indeed causing it to stay attached. FWIW, I've done some tuft testing on my wings and I seem to have laminar flow at least as far back as the hinge line of the aileron. The wing tip is much cleaner than I anticipated, too. There are very few modern sailplanes that get this level of laminar flow that far back on the wing. Shaw and Dykins are obviously genius'. I don't have enough knowledge on the subject to really know one way or the other how internal duct pressure is related to flow, but my tests seem to indicate that there is either no relationship, or the relationship is inverse. If you think about it, restricting the flow would cause higher pressure, just as it does when you put your finger on the end of a running garden hose. The pressure increases, but the flow decreases. That seems to be what is happening here. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's n="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2007
From: "ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A rare message.....
Hi! For what they cost how about making a spot on your service/spares shelf for a stand by one ? Regards Bob H G-PTAG >----Original Message---- >From: VE3LVO(at)rac.ca >Date: 03/10/2007 16:00 >To: "EUROPALIST" >Subj: Europa-List: A rare message..... > > >Hello, > We often see complaints regarding after-sales service of some of the >people who accept our money in exchange for their goods/services, > I'd like to counter that with good news. > Last Tuesday, 25SEP 07, as I was passing close to the front of the >engine, my sleeve caught one of the sintered brushes which are meant to >engage the rotating rings of my Woodcomp 3000-3 prop (not instralled). It >snapped the brush in half - just another trifling reverse, as I went to bed >shaking my head. > The next morning I emailed Jiri Holoubek near Prague with a sketch >and description of what had happened. By now it was 4pm his time. I received >an email reply about 1-1/2 hours later to say he would send a replacement. > It arrived this morning in the mail (two replacements) with the >date-stamp showing "27.09.07" as the posting. He must have arranged to post >it that afternoon. > You can't ask for more than that, especially on a small item that >couldn't have much profit to it. I thought you should know. >Cheers, ferg > > __________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband only 7.99 a month for your first 3 months! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 04, 2007
Subject: NASA/Langly report on recip engine cooling
An investigation of the aerodynamics and cooling of horizontally opposed engine installation" SJ Miley. SAE 1977. Hi Duncan, I found the report you cite here: _http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19810013485_1981013485.p df_ (http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19810013485_1981013485.pdf) I think this is the same report, but it's date of issue shows 1981. I've not had a chance to read it through yet, but skimming over it it looks to contain everything anybody could ever want to know about recip engine cooing and duct shape. Thanks for the heads up on that one! Our tax dollars might have actually been used to produce something useful. Wouldn't that be a breath of fresh air? Gilles, in regard to the details of my Jab installation, I've not had a chance to post anything yet. I have sent rather lengthy descriptions of what I've done to those who have asked, though. If there is enough interest (and if I can find the time) I could put together a report with pictures detailing my installation. I'm still fiddling with several things at the moment, so it's still a work in progress. So far, though, it's working well. I started playing with shapes yesterday to fair in the triangle brace I mentioned on the nosegear leg. I looks like I can bend up something out of sheet metal that would do what needs to be done in that area. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: NASA/Langly report on recip engine cooling
John I tend to knock things up in sheet lead, easy to form and stretch. Then I use the part I've knocked up as a mould for a GRP copy. Tend to use phenolic resin around the back of the engine, its fire resistant. Not easy to get hold of in small quantities though. I rarely have the discipline to do this, but I always say " one change at a time, then you have a chance of seeing if its better or worse" ?;-) Graham TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com wrote: > /An investigation of the aerodynamics and cooling of horizontally > opposed engine installation" > SJ Miley. SAE 1977./ > I started playing with shapes yesterday to fair in the triangle brace I > mentioned on the nosegear leg. I looks like I can bend up something out > of sheet metal that would do what needs to be done in that area. > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - Flying > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > See what's n="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2007
Subject: Wing profiling
From: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Interesting site of profiling Nimbus: http://www.jimphoenix.com/jimphoenix2/pages/Nimbus/LH%20UP%20wing/subLH%20UP%20wing.html Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2007
Subject: Wing profiling
From: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Interesting site of profiling Nimbus: http://www.jimphoenix.com/jimphoenix2/pages/Nimbus/LH%20UP%20wing/subLH%20UP%20wing.html Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2007
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: NASA/Langly report on recip engine cooling
TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com a crit : > > http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19810013485_1981013485.pdf > > I think this is the same report, but it's date of issue shows 1981. > I've not had a chance to read it through yet, but skimming over it it > looks to contain everything anybody could ever want to know about > recip engine cooing and duct shape. Thanks for the heads up on that > one! Our tax dollars might have actually been used to produce > something useful. Wouldn't that be a breath of fresh John, Duncan and all, S.J. Miley has been with us since the beginning of our cooling project. By the way, we made liberal use of the US tax dollars, by closely studying many NACA/NASA reports, some of them dating back to the '40s ;-) I tried to make as useful a summary as possible on cooling and internal aerodynamics. > Gilles, in regard to the details of my Jab installation, I've not had > a chance to post anything yet. I have sent rather lengthy descriptions > of what I've done to those who have asked, though. If there is enough > interest (and if I can find the time) I could put together a report > with pictures detailing my installation. I'm still fiddling with > several things at the moment, so it's still a work in progress. So > far, though, it's working well. > Any pictures will be appreciated. I'm sure you'll come out with quite satisfactory cooling, though the quest may prove long since you're pioneering with the Jab installation. All the best with your project, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paddy Clarke <paddyclarke(at)lineone.net>
Subject: DOTH Rougham Sat
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Hi Folks, Anyone fancy a DOTH to Rougham tomorrow ( Saturday ), to take advantage of the fine weather. They are doing what they call a ' Ploughs to Propellers 1940s Weekend' which includes a flower fruit and vegetable show. It could be a bit more female friendly than usual, so maybe a few wives/girlfriends would enjoy it. All the Best, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: DOTH Rougham Sat
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Paddy, Thank you for the information. I may try to make it tomorrow (Saturday). I take it you will have your wife with you? I am trying to persuade mine to come with me for her first trip. Regards Steve Pitt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: DOTH Rougham Sat
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Hi Paddy Where is Rougham, I cant seem to find it on my NAVBOX program? Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paddy Clarke Sent: 05 October 2007 17:19 Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Rougham Sat Hi Folks, Anyone fancy a DOTH to Rougham tomorrow ( Saturday ), to take advantage of the fine weather. They are doing what they call a ' Ploughs to Propellers 1940s Weekend' which includes a flower fruit and vegetable show. It could be a bit more female friendly than usual, so maybe a few wives/girlfriends would enjoy it. All the Best, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM 17:03 17:03 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Crimm" <steve.crimm(at)stephenscott.com>
Subject: A Bitter Sweet Moment
Date: Oct 05, 2007
Flight Yesterday I completed the sale of my Europa to a very nice fellow by the name of Venu Rao from Austin, TX. The last three years of being associated with this elite group has been an honor and pleasure for Bobbi and myself. Our last gathering at Rough River was a great get together which exemplifies those who are building and flying Europa's. While I will be no longer monitoring this list, going to be hanging out over with the RV guys, hopefully my next aircraft. I will be checking in every so often to catch up. Please let me now of any group get together in the south east as I would love to come visit. Thanks again, Steve & Bobbi Crimm ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Richard Holder <rholder(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: DOTH Rougham Sat
Near Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk. On the chart ! Richard Holder Alan Burrows wrote: > > Hi Paddy > > Where is Rougham, I cant seem to find it on my NAVBOX program? > > Alan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paddy Clarke <paddyclarke(at)lineone.net>
Subject: Re: DOTH Rougham Sat
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Hi Alan, Bury St Edmonds, Cheers, Paddy On 6 Oct 2007, at 0:13, Alan Burrows wrote: > insurance.com> > > Hi Paddy > > Where is Rougham, I cant seem to find it on my NAVBOX program? > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paddy > Clarke > Sent: 05 October 2007 17:19 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Rougham Sat > > > > Hi Folks, > Anyone fancy a DOTH to Rougham tomorrow ( Saturday ), to take > advantage of the fine weather. They are doing what they call a ' > Ploughs to Propellers 1940s Weekend' which includes a flower fruit > and vegetable show. It could be a bit more female friendly than > usual, so maybe a few wives/girlfriends would enjoy it. > All the Best, Paddy > > > Paddy Clarke > > Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM > > > 17:03 > > > 17:03 > > Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: A Bitter Sweet Moment
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Steve How "southeast" are you, as Kate and I spend the winter months in Daytona Florida and would love to meet up, if you are around (maybe we will persuade you to buy another Europa). Cheers Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Crimm Sent: 06 October 2007 02:48 Subject: Europa-List: A Bitter Sweet Moment Flight Yesterday I completed the sale of my Europa to a very nice fellow by the name of Venu Rao from Austin, TX. The last three years of being associated with this elite group has been an honor and pleasure for Bobbi and myself. Our last gathering at Rough River was a great get together which exemplifies those who are building and flying Europa's. While I will be no longer monitoring this list, going to be hanging out over with the RV guys, hopefully my next aircraft. I will be checking in every so often to catch up. Please let me now of any group get together in the south east as I would love to come visit. Thanks again, Steve & Bobbi Crimm 17:03 18:53 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Crimm" <steve.crimm(at)stephenscott.com>
Subject: A Bitter Sweet Moment
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Alan, we are in Atlanta. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 05:36 Subject: RE: Europa-List: A Bitter Sweet Moment --> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> Steve How "southeast" are you, as Kate and I spend the winter months in Daytona Florida and would love to meet up, if you are around (maybe we will persuade you to buy another Europa). Cheers Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Crimm Sent: 06 October 2007 02:48 Subject: Europa-List: A Bitter Sweet Moment Flight Yesterday I completed the sale of my Europa to a very nice fellow by the name of Venu Rao from Austin, TX. The last three years of being associated with this elite group has been an honor and pleasure for Bobbi and myself. Our last gathering at Rough River was a great get together which exemplifies those who are building and flying Europa's. While I will be no longer monitoring this list, going to be hanging out over with the RV guys, hopefully my next aircraft. I will be checking in every so often to catch up. Please let me now of any group get together in the south east as I would love to come visit. Thanks again, Steve & Bobbi Crimm 17:03 18:53 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: Aileron hinges and sagging
Date: Oct 07, 2007
i have seen a few of you talking about your ailerons sagging a bit at the tips, and using a third hinge, so i was thinking about moving the centre hinge inboard about 200mm and fitting the third hinge during the build. Can anyone see any problems with doing this, or will i stuff up some thing i am not up to yet, or not aware of. I realise i need to dodge the sites of the mass balance arms, but other than that i cant see why i shouldnt do this now thanks craig 6:53 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron hinges and sagging
Craig I can't think why not either, just be certain all three hinges are in line which means care with initial fitting. I don't quite agree with the manual here; at inital fit flox the hinges on jigged to a straight extrusion and let the flox cure before pulling the rivets because if you do that while the flox is wet you will probably distort something. Graham craig bastin wrote: I realise i need to dodge the sites of the mass balance arms, but > other than that i cant see > why i shouldnt do this now > > thanks > > craig > 6:53 PM > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Center Console
Hi all, I seem to recall quite some time ago that someone (perhaps Miles or Nigel) had done some analysis on how much the center tunnel can be safely reduced in size without affecting the structural integrity of the aircraft. I believe that it was with reference to the tail dragger conversion, however I would assume that its equally applicable to the Trigear. Can anyone point me towards that discussion. Thanks, Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Center Console
Paul for reasons which I'm sure you know, I don't think its wise to take any of it away. It helps to stop the main spar breaking your back in a crash. It also forms a nice elbow rest. Graham Paul McAllister wrote: > > Hi all, > > I seem to recall quite some time ago that someone (perhaps Miles or > Nigel) had done some analysis on how much the center tunnel can be > safely reduced in size without affecting the structural integrity of > the aircraft. I believe that it was with reference to the tail > dragger conversion, however I would assume that its equally applicable > to the Trigear. > > Can anyone point me towards that discussion. > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Aileron hinges and sagging
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Craig- I am at about the same place you are and added a third hinge close to the wingtip. When I did my initial fitting, the tip drooped about 3/16. It appeared to me more like the aileron was warped than just sagging. In retrospect, I would have been better off moving the center hinge a few inches inboard before I did so. It sounds like you are on the right track. The hinge material BTW is standard issue from AS. Jim Puglise A-283 -------------- Original message -------------- From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> > > > i have seen a few of you talking about your ailerons sagging a bit at the > tips, and using a third hinge, > so i was thinking about moving the centre hinge inboard about 200mm and > fitting the third hinge during the > build. Can anyone see any problems with doing this, or will i stuff up some > thing i am not up to yet, or not > aware of. I realise i need to dodge the sites of the mass balance arms, but > other than that i cant see > why i shouldnt do this now > > thanks > > craig > 6:53 PM > > > > >
Craig-

I am at about the same place you are and added a third hinge close to the wingtip. When I did my initial fitting, the tip drooped about 3/16. It appeared to me more like the aileron was warped than just sagging. In retrospect, I would have been better off moving the center hinge a few inches inboard before I did so. It sounds like you are on the right track. The hinge material BTW is standard issue from AS.

Jim Puglise A-283

>>

________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2007
Subject: Re: Aileron hinges and sagging
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
> i have seen a few of you talking about your ailerons sagging a bit at > the tips, and using a third hinge, so i was thinking about moving the > centre hinge inboard about 200mm and fitting the third hinge during > the build. Craig, FWIW, I'd read about guys adding a 3rd hinge, and I'd had some concerns about the distance between the two hinges being long so I added a 5.5" hinge midway between the 2 as per plans. When it came to mounting the ailerons, I found that my tips sagged about 1/8" and ultimately added a 2.5" hinge at the tip. good luck, Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: Lance Sandford <sandford(at)melbpc.org.au>
Subject: Re: Aileron hinges and sagging
Craig Welcome to the Forum. Ive been in Melbourne for 5 weeks and hadnt heard you had actually taken the plunge. I see you have had plenty of good advise on the aileron hinge. Another good place for an extra hinge is above the lower rudder hinge. Have fun. P.S. I got my video back thanks. Lance Sandford > > > i have seen a few of you talking about your ailerons sagging a bit at the > tips, and using a third hinge, > so i was thinking about moving the centre hinge inboard about 200mm and > fitting the third hinge during the > build. Can anyone see any problems with doing this, or will i stuff up some > thing i am not up to yet, or not > aware of. I realise i need to dodge the sites of the mass balance arms, but > other than that i cant see > why i shouldnt do this now > > thanks > > craig > 6:53 PM > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tim Ward" <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Aileron hinges and sagging
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Craig, In the late 1990's, along time ago now, I visited Kim Prout in LA to see his project while building mine #294. His father was present that day helping him. He used to work for McDonnell Corporation as , I think, an aerodynamics and he recommended having a 3rd hinge on the ailerons placed closer to the inner mass balance from the mid point. I have done this without any problems and certainly strengthens the aileron. Europa brought out a MOD to incorporate an extended tail wheel for better control. On installing this he also recommended strengthening the hinge attachments to the rudder by doubling the length of each hinge. Another good idea due to the added forces on the rudder with the steering tailwheel. All the best with the build, Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Ph :64 03 3515166 Mob: 021 0640221 email: ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Sandford" <sandford(at)melbpc.org.au> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 5:49 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Aileron hinges and sagging > > Craig > > Welcome to the Forum. > Ive been in Melbourne for 5 weeks and hadnt heard you had actually > taken the plunge. > I see you have had plenty of good advise on the aileron hinge. > Another good place for an extra hinge is above the lower rudder hinge. > Have fun. > P.S. I got my video back thanks. > > Lance Sandford > > >> >> >> >> i have seen a few of you talking about your ailerons sagging a bit at the >> tips, and using a third hinge, >> so i was thinking about moving the centre hinge inboard about 200mm and >> fitting the third hinge during the >> build. Can anyone see any problems with doing this, or will i stuff up >> some >> thing i am not up to yet, or not >> aware of. I realise i need to dodge the sites of the mass balance arms, >> but >> other than that i cant see >> why i shouldnt do this now >> >> thanks >> >> craig >> 6:53 PM >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: centre console
Date: Oct 07, 2007
There is a scheme out there to cut down the centre console (examined by the factory - perhaps Andy D can enlighten...) - we looked at the loads imposed by the engine on the centre console in relation to the taildragger attachment structure, and found them negligable - but didn't look at the flight loads. I agree with GS - keeping the centre console for crashworthiness is a good idea... Miles > From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> > Subject: Europa-List: Center Console > > > Hi all, > > I seem to recall quite some time ago that someone (perhaps Miles or > Nigel) had done some analysis on how much the center tunnel can be > safely reduced in size without affecting the structural integrity of > the aircraft. I believe that it was with reference to the tail > dragger conversion, however I would assume that its equally applicable > to the Trigear. > > Can anyone point me towards that discussion. > > Thanks, Paul > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Aileron hinges and sagging
Jim & Craig forgot to mention in my last remark, don't put the third hinge in the middle for resonance reasons. Vibration will be damped with the hinge off centre Graham jimpuglise(at)comcast.net wrote: > Craig- > > I am at about the same place you are and added a third hinge close to > the wingtip. When I did my initial fitting, the tip drooped about > 3/16. It appeared to me more like the aileron was warped than just > sagging. In retrospect, I would have been better off moving the center > hinge a few inches inboard before I did so. It sounds like you are on > the right track. The hinge material BTW is standard issue from AS. > > Jim Puglise A-283 > > >> > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Subject: Center console
In a message dated 10/7/2007 2:58:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes: Can anyone point me towards that discussion. Hi Paul, I cut my center console down. I was told at the time to keep it at least 2" above the forward portion of the seat bottom where it turns down into the foot area. I did put some reinforcing plies inside the tunnel in this area. So far, 118 hours, with some of those hours spent yanking and banking, and no sign of any problems. Contact me off list if you'd like some photos. Hope it helps! Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Europa List" <n914va(at)bvunet.net>
Subject: Autocad drawing of XS mono
Date: Oct 07, 2007
I believe that this question has been asked before, but does anyone have a good Autocad drawing of the XS mono. I have made one, but trying to reproduce it from the little drawing in the manual makes me suspect it's accuracy. I am down to trying to fit a ULPOWER 260i engine in the drawing. I have generated a pretty accurate drawing of the engine, since their site has drawings of it laid out on a grid,which makes copying easier. If anyone wants my XS drawing, they can have it with the caveat that it's accuracy may not be good enough for critical fits. Vaughn Teegarden A191, Wanting to finish before I die ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net>
Subject: Re: centre console
Date: Oct 07, 2007
We cut this console down but added several layers of bid to reinforce the inside. We then created the top with 5 layers of bid. It's secured with #10 screws and nut plates. The left seat was widened by reshapeing the left side of the console to allow for more leg room. This was done with 3 layers of bid over a center of 1/4 inch foam shaped to allow a right leg more room. As you can see it makes a great arm rest and a lot more room for toys. The fuel filters are located right under the arm rest and can be viewed in flight anytime. Best Regards, Jeff R A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 90 hours and climbing slowly. On Oct 7, 2007, at 3:52 AM, Miles McCallum wrote: > > > There is a scheme out there to cut down the centre console (examined > by the > factory - perhaps Andy D can enlighten...) - we looked at the loads > imposed > by the engine on the centre console in relation to the taildragger > attachment structure, and found them negligable - but didn't look at > the > flight loads. I agree with GS - keeping the centre console for > crashworthiness is a good idea... > > Miles > >> From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> >> Subject: Europa-List: Center Console >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I seem to recall quite some time ago that someone (perhaps Miles or >> Nigel) had done some analysis on how much the center tunnel can be >> safely reduced in size without affecting the structural integrity of >> the aircraft. I believe that it was with reference to the tail >> dragger conversion, however I would assume that its equally applicable >> to the Trigear. >> >> Can anyone point me towards that discussion. >> >> Thanks, Paul >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michel AUVRAY" <mau11(at)free.fr>
Subject: Autocad drawing of XS mono
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Hi Vaughn, Give me your personal email adress I send to you a DXF file. Regards Michel Auvray Europa N 145 -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Europa List Envoy : dimanche 7 octobre 2007 15:53 : europa-list(at)matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: Autocad drawing of XS mono I believe that this question has been asked before, but does anyone have a good Autocad drawing of the XS mono. I have made one, but trying to reproduce it from the little drawing in the manual makes me suspect it's accuracy. I am down to trying to fit a ULPOWER 260i engine in the drawing. I have generated a pretty accurate drawing of the engine, since their site has drawings of it laid out on a grid,which makes copying easier. If anyone wants my XS drawing, they can have it with the caveat that it's accuracy may not be good enough for critical fits. Vaughn Teegarden A191, Wanting to finish before I die ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Out rigger latching postmortem
Hi all, As some of you may recall I had an incident where my port out rigger didn't latch. I did some work on it this weekend and discovered that the head of a castellated nut had been catching the side of the W21 outrigger plate. If you look at the drawing on the bottom left hand corner on page 9-23 of the manual you will see that a AN4-11 drilled bolt passes through the top of the outrigger leg OR1 attaching it to OR4. The AN4-11 bolt is fitted with a AN310 castellated nut. What happening was that there was enough play where the bolt goes through the OR4 latch arm to allow OR1 to twist sideways so that the nut catches on the side of the W21 outrigger plate. What I did was to shorten the AN4-11 drilled bolt by 2mm and use a low profile castellated nut, I believe that they are designated AN320 (not certain). In addition I fitted another AN960-416L washer in the slot of OR1 to take up the slack between it and the OR4 latch. All seems well now, but I would encourage everyone to take a look on the inside of there W21 outrigger plate to check for signs of catching. I intend to fit a micro switch to detect gear down and locked, but I am afraid to say the the ultimate solution will be to convert my aircraft into a conventional tail dragger. Another instance of the outrigger not locking or the main gear over center lock failing is more than I would want to contemplate at some remote airstrip. Regards, Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Subject: Re: Out rigger latching postmortem
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Paul McAllister wrote: > In addition I fitted another AN960-416L washer in the slot > of OR1 to take up the slack between it and the OR4 latch. Paul/All, I've noticed that my hard copy build manual calls for a total of 2 AN960-416L washers in the OR1 slot, whereas the latest online manual has ADDED a 3rd washer. Checking my installation, there appears to be sufficient slack to add that 3rd washer. Thanks Paul for bringing this to our attention. Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Cliff" <mx(at)jcliff.waitrose.com>
Subject: Re: Center console
Date: Oct 08, 2007
Sometime around 2000 I enquired of PFA Engineering about the possibility of cutting down the centre tunnel (on a Classic) in the vertical plane at the same time as carrying out a taildragger conversion. I was informally told they might not be too happy about that because they weren't sure the front fuselage would be strong enough to cope with a very heavy landing with engine now hung a long way in front of the attachment point for the front wheels (the deeper the tunnel is the stronger a beam it makes, vertically). Evidently a Europa had suffered a wrinkled front fuselage some time before that in a heavy arrival incident. Much more in-service experience since then, of course. John Cliff #0259 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2007
Subject: Re: centre console
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
> We cut this console down but added several layers of bid to reinforce > the inside. We then created the top with 5 layers of bid. It's secured > with #10 screws and nut plates. The left seat was widened by > reshapeing the left side of the console to allow for more leg room. > This was done with 3 layers of bid over a center of 1/4 inch foam > shaped to allow a right leg more room. As you can see it makes a great > arm rest and a lot more room for toys. The fuel filters are located > right under the arm rest and can be viewed in flight anytime. Jeff...what an absolutely elegant mod...I salute you. I take it all this was done prior to CM installation...(?) Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "G-IANI" <g-iani(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Autocad drawing of XS mono
Date: Oct 08, 2007
On behalf of the Club I hold Autocad drawings for the Europa. These are available on the CD sent to new members. We have both mono and Trigear and the Hi-Top outlines. They are reasonably accurate but the factory confused some of the classic details with the XS. They have been checked where detail was needed. I also have a range of other detailed drawings for areas such as the foot wells, the 914 engine etc. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com -----Original Message----- does anyone have a good Autocad drawing of the XS mono. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "G-IANI" <g-iani(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Center Console
Date: Oct 08, 2007
The centre tunnel has been reduced or reshaped in a number of aircraft. I produced PFA mod number 10601 in 2002 and it is the only one approved "all of type" by the PFA. This has not been converted into a standard as it is complex. It modified the centre tunnel and the panel to match and moved the location of the fuel cock. I have attached a PDF of the drawing to give you some idea of what was done. Barry Mellor, who did the original stress calculations on the aircraft, did the stress calculations. I have machine readable copies of these if they would be of help. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2007
From: "Graeme Smith" <gcsmith(at)flyer.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Out rigger latching postmortem
Paul, Having suffered an overcentre locking failure, I can agree with your sentiments. I agree that a taildragger configuration would be a great improvement, do you have a suitable design/approved mod? I heard that the PFA were not approving any more of the 'Swiss' modification until feedback from the ones that have already been implemented. Do you have any others in mind? Regards, Graeme Smith On 07/10/2007, Paul McAllister wrote: > > paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> > > Hi all, > > As some of you may recall I had an incident where my port out rigger > didn't latch. I did some work on it this weekend and discovered that > the head of a castellated nut had been catching the side of the W21 > outrigger plate. > > If you look at the drawing on the bottom left hand corner on page 9-23 > of the manual you will see that a AN4-11 drilled bolt passes through > the top of the outrigger leg OR1 attaching it to OR4. The AN4-11 bolt > is fitted with a AN310 castellated nut. > > What happening was that there was enough play where the bolt goes > through the OR4 latch arm to allow OR1 to twist sideways so that the > nut catches on the side of the W21 outrigger plate. > > What I did was to shorten the AN4-11 drilled bolt by 2mm and use a low > profile castellated nut, I believe that they are designated AN320 (not > certain). In addition I fitted another AN960-416L washer in the slot > of OR1 to take up the slack between it and the OR4 latch. > > All seems well now, but I would encourage everyone to take a look on > the inside of there W21 outrigger plate to check for signs of > catching. > > I intend to fit a micro switch to detect gear down and locked, but I > am afraid to say the the ultimate solution will be to convert my > aircraft into a conventional tail dragger. Another instance of the > outrigger not locking or the main gear over center lock failing is > more than I would want to contemplate at some remote airstrip. > > Regards, Paul > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net>
Subject: Re: centre console
Date: Oct 08, 2007
>> > > Jeff...what an absolutely elegant mod...I salute you. I take it all > this was done prior to CM installation...(?) Yes, This was all done before, but I cannot take total credit for it. There we're several done this way at Flight Crafters in Florida. I just took it to the next level by increasing the leg room at the side of the CM. Now if I could just get all the cylinders to run at closer temps I would be happy. Still working on that though. Looks like I'm going to need to by the baffling that was supposed to be supplied with the firewall forward kit that I never received. I believe I have run out of other options. The engine is cooling but not evenly. If anyone out there has a picture of one please post it. Maybe I can make it. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 90 hours. > > Fred > A194 > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2007
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Out rigger latching postmortem
Graeme you might talk to Miles McCallum? Graham Graeme Smith wrote: > Paul, > > Having suffered an overcentre locking failure, I can agree with your > sentiments. I agree that a taildragger configuration would be a great > improvement, do you have a suitable design/approved mod? I heard that > the PFA were not approving any more of the 'Swiss' modification until > feedback from the ones that have already been implemented. Do you have > any others in mind? > > Regards, > Graeme Smith > > > On 07/10/2007, *Paul McAllister* > wrote: > > paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com > > > Hi all, > > As some of you may recall I had an incident where my port out rigger > didn't latch. I did some work on it this weekend and discovered that > the head of a castellated nut had been catching the side of the W21 > outrigger plate. > > If you look at the drawing on the bottom left hand corner on page 9-23 > of the manual you will see that a AN4-11 drilled bolt passes through > the top of the outrigger leg OR1 attaching it to OR4. The AN4-11 bolt > is fitted with a AN310 castellated nut. > > What happening was that there was enough play where the bolt goes > through the OR4 latch arm to allow OR1 to twist sideways so that the > nut catches on the side of the W21 outrigger plate. > > What I did was to shorten the AN4-11 drilled bolt by 2mm and use a low > profile castellated nut, I believe that they are designated AN320 (not > certain). In addition I fitted another AN960-416L washer in the slot > of OR1 to take up the slack between it and the OR4 latch. > > All seems well now, but I would encourage everyone to take a look on > the inside of there W21 outrigger plate to check for signs of > catching. > > I intend to fit a micro switch to detect gear down and locked, but I > am afraid to say the the ultimate solution will be to convert my > aircraft into a conventional tail dragger. Another instance of the > outrigger not locking or the main gear over center lock failing is > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Center Console
Date: Jan 01, 1988
Ian, Is that Mod with the underside of the fus skin cut out for the monowheel? Obviously not if it is to work with the trigear. But if the a/c has been converted from mono to TD, then it may have a big structural hole in the underside that invalidates this Mod! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "G-IANI" <g-iani(at)ntlworld.com> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 10:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Center Console > > The centre tunnel has been reduced or reshaped in a number of aircraft. > I produced PFA mod number 10601 in 2002 and it is the only one approved > "all of type" by the PFA. This has not been converted into a standard > as it is complex. It modified the centre tunnel and the panel to match > and moved the location of the fuel cock. I have attached a PDF of the > drawing to give you some idea of what was done. > > Barry Mellor, who did the original stress calculations on the aircraft, > did the stress calculations. I have machine readable copies of these if > they would be of help. > > Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear > Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) > e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk > or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2007
Subject: Re: Out rigger latching postmortem
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
On Monday, October 8, 2007, at 06:04 AM, Graeme Smith wrote: > I agree that a taildragger configuration would be a great > improvement, do you havea suitable design/approved mod?I heard that > the PFA were not approving any more of the'Swiss' modification until > feedback from the ones that have alreadybeen implemented. Do you have > any others in mind? Graeme, You might check w/ Bob Berube at FlightCrafters.com... Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2007
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Out rigger latching postmortem
Graeme, I intend to use the modification designed by Bob Berbue. I can forward you on some photographs if that will help. Paul On 10/8/07, Graeme Smith wrote: > Paul, > > Having suffered an overcentre locking failure, I can agree with your > sentiments. I agree that a taildragger configuration would be a great > improvement, do you have a suitable design/approved mod? I heard that the > PFA were not approving any more of the 'Swiss' modification until feedback > from the ones that have already been implemented. Do you have any others in > mind? > > Regards, > Graeme Smith > > > On 07/10/2007, Paul McAllister wrote: > paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> > > > > Hi all, > > > > As some of you may recall I had an incident where my port out rigger > > didn't latch. I did some work on it this weekend and discovered that > > the head of a castellated nut had been catching the side of the W21 > > outrigger plate. > > > > If you look at the drawing on the bottom left hand corner on page 9-23 > > of the manual you will see that a AN4-11 drilled bolt passes through > > the top of the outrigger leg OR1 attaching it to OR4. The AN4-11 bolt > > is fitted with a AN310 castellated nut. > > > > What happening was that there was enough play where the bolt goes > > through the OR4 latch arm to allow OR1 to twist sideways so that the > > nut catches on the side of the W21 outrigger plate. > > > > What I did was to shorten the AN4-11 drilled bolt by 2mm and use a low > > profile castellated nut, I believe that they are designated AN320 (not > > certain). In addition I fitted another AN960-416L washer in the slot > > of OR1 to take up the slack between it and the OR4 latch. > > > > All seems well now, but I would encourage everyone to take a look on > > the inside of there W21 outrigger plate to check for signs of > > catching. > > > > I intend to fit a micro switch to detect gear down and locked, but I > > am afraid to say the the ultimate solution will be to convert my > > aircraft into a conventional tail dragger. Another instance of the > > outrigger not locking or the main gear over center lock failing is > > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > > believed to be clean. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2007
Subject: Re: centre console
This is what I got with my Jabiru 3300A. If you would like pix of just the cowls....let me know off-list and I'll take pix and send them to you. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2007
From: anthony pavao <pavaocentral(at)YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Europa-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 10/08/07
I tried many ways to reply to this thread to no avail...just a reminder that the hard landing crinkled nose that resulted in center console damage photos can be seen here: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=TonyPA184&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Europa-List Digest Server wrote: * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 07-10-08&Archive=Europa Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 07-10-08&Archive=Europa =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/08/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:17 AM - Re: Center console (John Cliff) 2. 02:27 AM - Re: centre console (Fred Klein) 3. 03:09 AM - Re: Autocad drawing of XS mono (G-IANI) 4. 03:34 AM - Re: Center Console (G-IANI) 5. 06:05 AM - Re: Out rigger latching postmortem (Graeme Smith) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: centre console (JEFF ROBERTS) 7. 10:49 AM - Re: Out rigger latching postmortem (Graham Singleton) 8. 11:22 AM - Re: Center Console (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 9. 11:40 AM - Re: Out rigger latching postmortem (Fred Klein) 10. 03:09 PM - Re: Out rigger latching postmortem (Paul McAllister) 11. 05:34 PM - Re: centre console (DuaneFamly(at)aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "John Cliff" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Center console Sometime around 2000 I enquired of PFA Engineering about the possibility of cutting down the centre tunnel (on a Classic) in the vertical plane at the same time as carrying out a taildragger conversion. I was informally told they might not be too happy about that because they weren't sure the front fuselage would be strong enough to cope with a very heavy landing with engine now hung a long way in front of the attachment point for the front wheels (the deeper the tunnel is the stronger a beam it makes, vertically). Evidently a Europa had suffered a wrinkled front fuselage some time before that in a heavy arrival incident. Much more in-service experience since then, of course. John Cliff #0259 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Subject: Re: Europa-List: centre console From: Fred Klein > We cut this console down but added several layers of bid to reinforce > the inside. We then created the top with 5 layers of bid. It's secured > with #10 screws and nut plates. The left seat was widened by > reshapeing the left side of the console to allow for more leg room. > This was done with 3 layers of bid over a center of 1/4 inch foam > shaped to allow a right leg more room. As you can see it makes a great > arm rest and a lot more room for toys. The fuel filters are located > right under the arm rest and can be viewed in flight anytime. Jeff...what an absolutely elegant mod...I salute you. I take it all this was done prior to CM installation...(?) Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Autocad drawing of XS mono On behalf of the Club I hold Autocad drawings for the Europa. These are available on the CD sent to new members. We have both mono and Trigear and the Hi-Top outlines. They are reasonably accurate but the factory confused some of the classic details with the XS. They have been checked where detail was needed. I also have a range of other detailed drawings for areas such as the foot wells, the 914 engine etc. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com -----Original Message----- does anyone have a good Autocad drawing of the XS mono. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Center Console The centre tunnel has been reduced or reshaped in a number of aircraft. I produced PFA mod number 10601 in 2002 and it is the only one approved "all of type" by the PFA. This has not been converted into a standard as it is complex. It modified the centre tunnel and the panel to match and moved the location of the fuel cock. I have attached a PDF of the drawing to give you some idea of what was done. Barry Mellor, who did the original stress calculations on the aircraft, did the stress calculations. I have machine readable copies of these if they would be of help. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ From: "Graeme Smith" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Out rigger latching postmortem Paul, Having suffered an overcentre locking failure, I can agree with your sentiments. I agree that a taildragger configuration would be a great improvement, do you have a suitable design/approved mod? I heard that the PFA were not approving any more of the 'Swiss' modification until feedback from the ones that have already been implemented. Do you have any others in mind? Regards, Graeme Smith On 07/10/2007, Paul McAllister wrote: > > paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> > > Hi all, > > As some of you may recall I had an incident where my port out rigger > didn't latch. I did some work on it this weekend and discovered that > the head of a castellated nut had been catching the side of the W21 > outrigger plate. > > If you look at the drawing on the bottom left hand corner on page 9-23 > of the manual you will see that a AN4-11 drilled bolt passes through > the top of the outrigger leg OR1 attaching it to OR4. The AN4-11 bolt > is fitted with a AN310 castellated nut. > > What happening was that there was enough play where the bolt goes > through the OR4 latch arm to allow OR1 to twist sideways so that the > nut catches on the side of the W21 outrigger plate. > > What I did was to shorten the AN4-11 drilled bolt by 2mm and use a low > profile castellated nut, I believe that they are designated AN320 (not > certain). In addition I fitted another AN960-416L washer in the slot > of OR1 to take up the slack between it and the OR4 latch. > > All seems well now, but I would encourage everyone to take a look on > the inside of there W21 outrigger plate to check for signs of > catching. > > I intend to fit a micro switch to detect gear down and locked, but I > am afraid to say the the ultimate solution will be to convert my > aircraft into a conventional tail dragger. Another instance of the > outrigger not locking or the main gear over center lock failing is > more than I would want to contemplate at some remote airstrip. > > Regards, Paul > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: centre console >> > > Jeff...what an absolutely elegant mod...I salute you. I take it all > this was done prior to CM installation...(?) Yes, This was all done before, but I cannot take total credit for it. There we're several done this way at Flight Crafters in Florida. I just took it to the next level by increasing the leg room at the side of the CM. Now if I could just get all the cylinders to run at closer temps I would be happy. Still working on that though. Looks like I'm going to need to by the baffling that was supposed to be supplied with the firewall forward kit that I never received. I believe I have run out of other options. The engine is cooling but not evenly. If anyone out there has a picture of one please post it. Maybe I can make it. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 90 hours. > > Fred > A194 > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Out rigger latching postmortem Graeme you might talk to Miles McCallum? Graham Graeme Smith wrote: > Paul, > > Having suffered an overcentre locking failure, I can agree with your > sentiments. I agree that a taildragger configuration would be a great > improvement, do you have a suitable design/approved mod? I heard that > the PFA were not approving any more of the 'Swiss' modification until > feedback from the ones that have already been implemented. Do you have > any others in mind? > > Regards, > Graeme Smith > > > On 07/10/2007, *Paul McAllister* > > wrote: > > paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com > > > Hi all, > > As some of you may recall I had an incident where my port out rigger > didn't latch. I did some work on it this weekend and discovered that > the head of a castellated nut had been catching the side of the W21 > outrigger plate. > > If you look at the drawing on the bottom left hand corner on page 9-23 > of the manual you will see that a AN4-11 drilled bolt passes through > the top of the outrigger leg OR1 attaching it to OR4. The AN4-11 bolt > is fitted with a AN310 castellated nut. > > What happening was that there was enough play where the bolt goes > through the OR4 latch arm to allow OR1 to twist sideways so that the > nut catches on the side of the W21 outrigger plate. > > What I did was to shorten the AN4-11 drilled bolt by 2mm and use a low > profile castellated nut, I believe that they are designated AN320 (not > certain). In addition I fitted another AN960-416L washer in the slot > of OR1 to take up the slack between it and the OR4 latch. > > All seems well now, but I would encourage everyone to take a look on > the inside of there W21 outrigger plate to check for signs of > catching. > > I intend to fit a micro switch to detect gear down and locked, but I > am afraid to say the the ultimate solution will be to convert my > aircraft into a conventional tail dragger. Another instance of the > outrigger not locking or the main gear over center lock failing is > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Center Console Ian, Is that Mod with the underside of the fus skin cut out for the monowheel? Obviously not if it is to work with the trigear. But if the a/c has been converted from mono to TD, then it may have a big structural hole in the underside that invalidates this Mod! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "G-IANI" Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 10:32 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Center Console > > The centre tunnel has been reduced or reshaped in a number of aircraft. > I produced PFA mod number 10601 in 2002 and it is the only one approved > "all of type" by the PFA. This has not been converted into a standard > as it is complex. It modified the centre tunnel and the panel to match > and moved the location of the fuel cock. I have attached a PDF of the > drawing to give you some idea of what was done. > > Barry Mellor, who did the original stress calculations on the aircraft, > did the stress calculations. I have machine readable copies of these if > they would be of help. > > Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear > Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) > e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk > or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Subject: Re: Europa-List: Out rigger latching postmortem From: Fred Klein On Monday, October 8, 2007, at 06:04 AM, Graeme Smith wrote: > I agree that a taildragger configuration would be a great > improvement, do you havea suitable design/approved mod?I heard that > the PFA were not approving any more of the'Swiss' modification until > feedback from the ones that have alreadybeen implemented. Do you have > any others in mind? Graeme, You might check w/ Bob Berube at FlightCrafters.com... Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Out rigger latching postmortem Graeme, I intend to use the modification designed by Bob Berbue. I can forward you on some photographs if that will help. Paul On 10/8/07, Graeme Smith wrote: > Paul, > > Having suffered an overcentre locking failure, I can agree with your > sentiments. I agree that a taildragger configuration would be a great > improvement, do you have a suitable design/approved mod? I heard that the > PFA were not approving any more of the 'Swiss' modification until feedback > from the ones that have already been implemented. Do you have any others in > mind? > > Regards, > Graeme Smith > > > On 07/10/2007, Paul McAllister wrote: > paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> > > > > Hi all, > > > > As some of you may recall I had an incident where my port out rigger > > didn't latch. I did some work on it this weekend and discovered that > > the head of a castellated nut had been catching the side of the W21 > > outrigger plate. > > > > If you look at the drawing on the bottom left hand corner on page 9-23 > > of the manual you will see that a AN4-11 drilled bolt passes through > > the top of the outrigger leg OR1 attaching it to OR4. The AN4-11 bolt > > is fitted with a AN310 castellated nut. > > > > What happening was that there was enough play where the bolt goes > > through the OR4 latch arm to allow OR1 to twist sideways so that the > > nut catches on the side of the W21 outrigger plate. > > > > What I did was to shorten the AN4-11 drilled bolt by 2mm and use a low > > profile castellated nut, I believe that they are designated AN320 (not > > certain). In addition I fitted another AN960-416L washer in the slot > > of OR1 to take up the slack between it and the OR4 latch. > > > > All seems well now, but I would encourage everyone to take a look on > > the inside of there W21 outrigger plate to check for signs of > > catching. > > > > I intend to fit a micro switch to detect gear down and locked, but I > > am afraid to say the the ultimate solution will be to convert my > > aircraft into a conventional tail dragger. Another instance of the > > outrigger not locking or the main gear over center lock failing is > > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > > believed to be clean. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ From: DuaneFamly(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: centre console This is what I got with my Jabiru 3300A. If you would like pix of just the cowls....let me know off-list and I'll take pix and send them to you. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "G-IANI" <g-iani(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Center Console
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Duncan The mod was designed for my aircraft which was new and a Trigear from scratch. The existing floor (The area which would be cut out for the mono) was left in place and reinforced with 3mm foam and 2 (or 3 I forget) plies of Bid. My understanding from Barry Mellors was that his calculations assumed the hole was there. So he was not interested in any structural strength contribution the new floor might make. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: Aileron hinges and sagging
Date: Oct 10, 2007
yes i went for moving the "outer" hinge to 20mm inside the mass balance, and then the new outer third hinge about 80mm or so from the tip, just in case i need to trim the length down a bit thanks all -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Sunday, 7 October 2007 9:59 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Aileron hinges and sagging Jim & Craig forgot to mention in my last remark, don't put the third hinge in the middle for resonance reasons. Vibration will be damped with the hinge off centre Graham jimpuglise(at)comcast.net wrote: > Craig- > > I am at about the same place you are and added a third hinge close to > the wingtip. When I did my initial fitting, the tip drooped about > 3/16. It appeared to me more like the aileron was warped than just > sagging. In retrospect, I would have been better off moving the center > hinge a few inches inboard before I did so. It sounds like you are on > the right track. The hinge material BTW is standard issue from AS. > > Jim Puglise A-283 > > >> > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 4:43 PM 4:43 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Europa List" <n914va(at)bvunet.net>
Subject: Next year's dream
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Dreaming of days ahead after completion. Vaughn Teegarden A191, needing the incentive ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: Next year's dream
Date: Oct 09, 2007
Hey I just had a great idea for a holiday =85=85.:-) xx 08/10/2007 16:54 08/10/2007 16:54 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paddy Clarke <paddyclarke(at)lineone.net>
Subject: Williams Trailer Etc.
Date: Oct 10, 2007
Hi Folks, David Joyce and I have been asked by Diana to sell some of Williams flying things, in particular his trailer. This is an enclosed, twin axle, aluminium, monowheel trailer. It comes with full one man rigging kit, full lighting, full brakes, winch, solar panel, spare wheels, etc. I haven't seen it yet, but hope to have it here ( Nr. Bath ) on Friday. Also of possible interest to Europa people are : Rotax Starter. ( Probably lower power ) Rotax Tachometer. Monowheel Hub with Tyre, Brake disc, etc. Original Classic exhaust. 2 x Wing Work Stands Of more general interest, which I will be advertising on the Afors site, are: Vintage Garmin 55 G.P.S. As new Garmin 296 G.P.S. David Clarke H10-40 Headset Icom IC-A24 Handheld transceiver, with chargers, spare battery, headset lead etc. Approx 12 Laminated charts 2001 - 2006 Approx 24 Jepperson VFR European charts 2001-2006 We are looking for offers on these items, but for obvious reasons, will be looking for a fair price. My 'phone numbers are - Home 01225 743346, Mobile 07723 014233 or e- mail, All the Best, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Gamble" <mp.gamble(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Petition to HMG
Date: Oct 10, 2007
I have just received the following from a colleague and I have added my name to the petition. I choose to ignore the denial on the Downing Street website. As I suspect others will want to show support, I trust I will be forgiven for listing this here. Thanks Mike Gamble ''The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the 2012 London Olympics because they are deemed 'too British'. Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might be 'offensive' to other countries taking part in the Games. The display team have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department of Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team 'too militaristically British'. Red Arrows pilots were said to be 'outraged', as they had hoped to put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had never been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being 'too British' is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain. The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas trade, as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world. The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly spectacular. It is to be hoped that common sense prevails If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012 Forward this on to everyone you can.'' ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paddy Clarke <paddyclarke(at)lineone.net>
Subject: Williams Trailer Etc.
Date: Oct 12, 2007
Hi Folks, Could I ask anyone who wants to contact me re. the above, to do so off list ( paddyclarke(at)lineone.net ), or by 'phone? Many thanks, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 2007
Subject: 914 Mono ground cooling
From: <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Has anyone measured the velocity of air coming out of radiators when 914 Monowheel is on ground with motor at idle and slight above? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Fiddling last night with a 5.5" folding propeller on electric motor with a mock up duct on water radiator, flow coming out of the radiator was to say the least impressive, inlet size was between PTAG and Factory, prop is inside intake by about 4". Weight of prop and motor probably 4 oz., when blades folded frontal area is bout diameter of US Quarter (27.6mm). Pitch speed aft of prop when blowing in inlet at about 20mph was probably over 60mph. I need to bring to hangar measurement instruments for speed and amp draw. An order is in with my partner Wayne to bring over 2 leaf blowers for same high velocity testing. Side benefit may be constipation, running the motor backwards at a very very low power setting easily constipates all flow through radiator with 20mph at intake which would equate to help warm things up on ground, I am pretty certain in-flight a low setting would do the same. Ron P. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: seat back height and larger main tank
Date: Oct 13, 2007
I have seen a few people discussing raising the seat back height by an inch or two to accommodate a larger main tank and then switching to an alloy tank or simmilar as part of the process of replacing a leaking tank, just wondering if anyone has looked at this further regards craig 6:02 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: seat back height and larger main tank
Date: Oct 14, 2007
Yes; That at least is what I am planning to do. I have a new poly tank. When I remove the top of the seat back and get the old tank cut out I will take the poly tank and do some fit ups. Then I will more or less copy the plastic tank's configuration doing some optimization and then raise the top approximately 2". Prior to doing that I will mock up the raised configuration of the whole mess to make sure there are no hidden gotcha's. I still need to talk to some people around here to see what the optimum thickness of aluminum (or aluminium?) to use. I did an analysis and a 3/32" thickness of Al would give me a tank about 5 lbs heavier in the stock configuration. I did receive a photo of a tank on the internet but no specifics came with it. Any further input would be appreciated. A 2" height increase would give about 3.5 extra gallons and raise the angle of the seat belts over the shoulder slightly which had been an item of concern in the past. Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ > [Original Message] > From: craig bastin <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> > To: > Date: 10/12/2007 9:26:01 PM > Subject: Europa-List: seat back height and larger main tank > > > I have seen a few people discussing raising the seat back height by > an inch or two to accommodate a larger main tank and then switching > to an alloy tank or simmilar as part of the process of replacing a leaking > tank, just wondering if anyone has looked at this further > > regards > > craig > 6:02 PM > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: seat back height and larger main tank
Date: Oct 14, 2007
steve, have you considered a kevlar or CF tank, the way i was thinking of going was doing a blank of the bigger tank out of foam,try it in place, then assuming all is good do a few layups of kevlar or carbon over the whole thing, putting the fittings in place during the layup, then just melt the foam out later using mogas. The carbon is easier to work with, but i have concerns it may be TOO stiff. thats why i thought kevlar matt may be better, or a kevlar carbon weave cloth, with a vinyl ester resin system that is chemically resistant. this would probably give you a tank about 2/3 the weight of the original with the extra capacity. just a thought. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Hagar Sent: Monday, 15 October 2007 1:30 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: seat back height and larger main tank Yes; That at least is what I am planning to do. I have a new poly tank. When I remove the top of the seat back and get the old tank cut out I will take the poly tank and do some fit ups. Then I will more or less copy the plastic tank's configuration doing some optimization and then raise the top approximately 2". Prior to doing that I will mock up the raised configuration of the whole mess to make sure there are no hidden gotcha's. I still need to talk to some people around here to see what the optimum thickness of aluminum (or aluminium?) to use. I did an analysis and a 3/32" thickness of Al would give me a tank about 5 lbs heavier in the stock configuration. I did receive a photo of a tank on the internet but no specifics came with it. Any further input would be appreciated. A 2" height increase would give about 3.5 extra gallons and raise the angle of the seat belts over the shoulder slightly which had been an item of concern in the past. Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ > [Original Message] > From: craig bastin <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au> > To: > Date: 10/12/2007 9:26:01 PM > Subject: Europa-List: seat back height and larger main tank > > > I have seen a few people discussing raising the seat back height by > an inch or two to accommodate a larger main tank and then switching > to an alloy tank or simmilar as part of the process of replacing a leaking > tank, just wondering if anyone has looked at this further > > regards > > craig > 6:02 PM > > 6:02 PM 6:02 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paddy Clarke <paddyclarke(at)lineone.net>
Subject: Popham
Date: Oct 14, 2007
Hi Folks, Anyone going to Popham for their end of season fly-in today (Sunday)? Cheers, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Geoff Leedham" <sideslip(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Popham
Date: Oct 14, 2007
Hi Paddy, Yes I am going. Expect to be there arround 12.30-13.00. Geoff Leedham G-EOFS Trigear ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paddy Clarke" <paddyclarke(at)lineone.net> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 9:54 AM Subject: Europa-List: Popham > > Hi Folks, > Anyone going to Popham for their end of season fly-in today (Sunday)? > Cheers, Paddy > > > Paddy Clarke > > Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM > > > -- > 269.14.9/1068 - Release Date: 13/10/2007 10:15 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa Training Standards
From: "Venu Rao" <venurao(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 14, 2007
Has anyone taken a stab at this? Are there any high time Europa monowheel pilots in the States who are open to providing some of this transition training and/or helping to outline some standards? Cheers, Venu -------- Venu Rao 058 - Europa XS Monowheel Builder: Jim Nelson 150 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140020#140020 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 15, 2007
From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Training Standards
A formal transition training for the Europa is something that is still sorely lacking. Most pilots seem to jump right into their newly built Europas with no prior experience. I have taken several demo rides in the Europa, but I have never touched the controls during takeoffs and landings. In fact, when I took the first demo ride at the then Lakeland office, I was surprised that I was not offered to handle the takeoff and landing. One of my friends who also went to Lakeland for a demo, decided to not buy the Europa solely based on the fact that he was not given that opportunity. He is building an RV now. Velocity Aircraft offers a nice training that includes ground and flight in their factory aircraft. This is something that the UK factory ought to give some thought to. It could also be a good source of revenue for them. --- Venu Rao wrote: > > Has anyone taken a stab at this? Are there any high time Europa > monowheel pilots in the States who are open to providing some > of this transition training and/or helping to outline some standards? > > Cheers, > Venu > > -------- > Venu Rao > 058 - Europa XS Monowheel > Builder: Jim Nelson > 150 hrs > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140020#140020 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 15, 2007
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Europa Training Standards
Andrew Sarangan a crit : > In fact, when I took the first demo ride at the then Lakeland > office, I was surprised that I was not offered to handle the takeoff > and landing. One of my friends who also went to Lakeland for a demo, > decided to not buy the Europa solely based on the fact that he was not > given that opportunity. Andrew and all, I'm a bit surprised. Why would a demopilot or instructor *not* offer to fly the airplane from startup to landing ? I understand your friend : I also would be wary of an airplane I'm not allowed to take off and land. My first answer when asked about a particular model is, fly the airplane before making any decisions. What was wrong with that particular airplane (or demo pilot ;-))) Best regards, -- Gilles Thesee http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robt.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Regrets......Torque Tube Clamp Orders.......
Date: Oct 15, 2007
Hi! All You may have noticed I've been "out of cyber space" lately ? Well ...my damn computer crashed big time .took every little morsel of info with it and out of a certain ignorance of computer terminology... I thought the term "archive" was what I NOW UNDERSTAND is "back up" ! So here's the first communication (thanks to Ivor Phillips and a certain Indian named "Amer" ) from the new set up! (Except until my son returns from his Greek holiday I just may rescue my list of contacts info. from my phone!) The message starts with an apology !.. I'm sorry to have to use the site as a sales tool BUT.. would all those who have not placed orders with hard cash up front (those who have can rest easy I have their details ) and who would like to be in the first order batch ..about to start production please communicate with me immediately, otherwise be prepared for a wait until the second batch numbers are sufficient. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 15, 2007
From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Europa Training Standards
I was surprised too. My first ride was with Bob Berube when he used to work for Europa. Second ride was with Jim Thursby (if I recall correctly). Both times I handled the controls once we were in the air, but relinquished the controls for takeoff and landing. As a flight instructor I know that it takes some training experience to let someone else do the takeoff and landing, especially in a aircraft that could ground loop. Even though I am building a monowheel I have never experienced its ground handling. And I know I am not the only one. --- Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> wrote: > <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > Andrew Sarangan a crit : > > In fact, when I took the first demo ride at the then Lakeland > > office, I was surprised that I was not offered to handle the > takeoff > > and landing. One of my friends who also went to Lakeland for a > demo, > > decided to not buy the Europa solely based on the fact that he was > not > > given that opportunity. > > Andrew and all, > > I'm a bit surprised. > Why would a demopilot or instructor *not* offer to fly the airplane > from > startup to landing ? > I understand your friend : I also would be wary of an airplane I'm > not > allowed to take off and land. > My first answer when asked about a particular model is, fly the > airplane > before making any decisions. > > What was wrong with that particular airplane (or demo pilot ;-))) > Best regards, > -- > Gilles Thesee > http://contrails.free.fr > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa Training Standards
From: "G&TPowell" <georgepowell(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 16, 2007
I got my first demo ride in a monowheel at Sun N Fun in the 90's with the factory test pilot. I did not take off or land, but did fly quite a bit in the air. At Sun N Fun in 1997, I got a demo in a tri-gear with John Hurst, and I flew the plane myself from taxi to take-off to landing and taxi in. I was happy to let the test pilot take off and land the monowheel, but I felt comfortable enough with the tri-gear to do everything. Just my 2 cents' worth. George Powell Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bryan allsop <bryanallsop(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: DOTH Alert
Date: Oct 16, 2007
For those interested, a doth is being plotted for friday. A choice of Beccl es, Old Bucenham, Sandtoft, Sheffield, and Shobdon exists from the Pilot Ma gazine freebies. The first two have a novelty factor, the last three have s omewhere to eat on site. Watch this space! Bryan Allsop _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!- Play Star Shuffle:- the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc t ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa Training Standards
From: "Venu Rao" <venurao(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 16, 2007
Hope I'm not flogging a dead horse...please let me know if this issue is a "no-go". I recently bought Steve Crimm's monowheel - think it's a beautiful, sleek a/c in this config, but agree with Steve's original post about getting a list of "named" monowheel owners who could possibly help establish some basic training on the mono - particularly if the Europa team cannot provide this for insurance, liability or other reasons...

September 25, 2007 - October 16, 2007

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