Europa-Archive.digest.vol-he
August 22, 2008 - September 05, 2008
Europa-Archive.digest.vol-he
August 22, 2008 - September 05, 2008
the heavy duty starter but with the slipper clutch?
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: DOTH Friday Shuttleworth
Date: Aug 22, 2008
No can do from David - he's flying round the Black Sea at the moment, due
back 30th. Hope you and Kim are well.
love, Su
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paddy Clarke" <paddyclarke(at)lineone.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:07 AM
Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Friday Shuttleworth
Hi Folks,
It should be flyable tomorrow, ( Friday 22nd), so how about a DOTH?.
If no one has any better ideas I suggest a visit to the Shuttleworth
collection at Old Warden. The 10 landing fee gets the pilot into the
museum - any passengers will be charged the 10 entry fee. PPR is
essential on the day. 1200 ish as usual.
All the best, Paddy
Paddy Clarke
Europa G-KIMM
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: No Slipper Clutch?
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: "Christoph Both" <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Hi,
Not yet running 912S. The only way to use the old engine mount is to
exchange the heavy duty starter for the normal one. Fact is even with
that there are only a few millimetres tolerance left before even the
normal starter would contact the engine mount frame.
The problem is the very high prop momentum with the standard 3 blade
prop which the starter needs to initially overcome, on top of higher
compression of the 912S. With this in mind I am mounting a 2 blade
Woodcomp 3000 Scimitar which is much lighter. It weights only 8kg
complete with spinner compared to 12kg for the 3 blade or even more with
the Airmaster which will require you to move the battery to the back,
with all associated extra weight penalties...
I will see how this all works out but I am confident this is a great
combination.
Christoph Both
#223 Conversion TRI gear
Wolfville, Nova Scotia
Canada
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Troy Maynor
Sent: Thu 8/21/2008 11:33 PM
Subject: Europa-List: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi All,
Just a question to all for a start : How many are running the 912S
without
the heavy duty starter but with the slipper clutch?
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi All,
If you are considering using a 912S without the heavy duty clutch then
another approach would be to consider using the "SoftStart" module
which alters the timing for the starting phase.
Take a look at:
http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/index.asp?function=DISPLAYPRODUCT&productid=735
Regards, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Re: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi Troy,
I have the original starter and it has never given me any trouble in
getting a reliable start. I have no idea if I have the slipper clutch -
this has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Does anyone know how I
determine this?
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
Subject: Europa-List: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi All,
Just a question to all for a start : How many are running the 912S without the
heavy duty starter but with the slipper clutch?
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: No Slipper Clutch?
John,
Burried in your service manual, there is a check for the slipper clutch.
It involves locking the crankshaft and moving the prop back and forth.
If your prop moves several degrees, you have a slipper clutch...
Jeff
John & Paddy Wigney wrote:
>
>
> Hi Troy,
>
> I have the original starter and it has never given me any trouble in
> getting a reliable start. I have no idea if I have the slipper clutch -
> this has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Does anyone know how I
> determine this?
>
> Cheers, John
> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
>
> ORIGINAL MESSAGE
> From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
> Subject: Europa-List: No Slipper Clutch?
> Hi All,
> Just a question to all for a start : How many are running the 912S
> without the heavy duty starter but with the slipper clutch?
> Troy Maynor
> N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
> Left to finish:
> Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
> Weaverville, NC USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 8/22/2008 6:48 AM
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: No Slipper Clutch?
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: "Justin Kennedy" <justin(at)systemwise.co.uk>
Hi,
Yup, I have a 912S with slipper clutch and small starter. It has never
failed and provides plenty of crank.
However I firmly believe this is because I use an Odyssey PC545 battery
which has an amazing performance.
Justin Kennedy
G-ZTED
Europa Mono Classic
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Ethanol and sight tubes.
Date: Aug 22, 2008
Jeff,
You have hit the nail on the head. I'm looking to make a fitting using
tempered glass, but am still a little shy about producing one until
fully tested.
Just like my tow bar, it took three different designs to finally get it
right. I figure the same problem with the protected glass sight tube
idea and the final cowl changes.
So many ideas, and so little time.
See you at Rough River if you don't get drowned out by Fay.
Bud
Custom Flight Creations
www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/>
(813) 653-4989
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff B<mailto:topglock(at)cox.net>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ethanol and sight tubes.
>
I've used ethanol to help dye certain clear plastics. It definitely
has
a penetrating effect. Looks like a shielded glass may be the way to
go,
for sight gauges...
Jeff
ALAN YERLY wrote:
> Sorry I couldn't weigh in on the site lately, too much work and too
> little time.
>
> You can go to my website at customflightcreations.com and select
> accessories to see how I do my sight tubes. They all work very well
> between the seats.
>
> Back to ethanol... I finished a test on a 10% ethanol 92 octane
fuel
> and its effects on our polyurethane tubing, and acrylic plexiglass.
>
> To my surprise, the ethanol fuel really made the polyurethane yellow
> faster. After prolonged exposure, the urethane did not seem to
> deteriorate at all. However, within two hours, the yellowing of the
> tube became pronounced. I frankly looked pretty dark after a week,
but
> it was readable and held up well.
>
> I then tested it with a new rigid acrylic tube, which by the tech
data,
> was supposed to be safe for use with gasoline, and fair with pure
> ethanol. After only two hours, the acrylic began to break down in
the
> 10% fuel mixture. By the end of 8 hours it began become slightly
opaque
> and slimy where the fuel contacted. I then cut a piece of the
tubing
> and submerged it completely. Sure enough, the tube outer part
became a
> slimy mess, but it was still rigid, although un-useable. So please
> pretest your acrylics.
>
> Redux (Epibond or Araldite 420 A/B) held up pretty well. The glue
had
> cured for only 12 hours and was submersed. No significant change
> noticed. Pro Seal was OK but the manufacturer has only tested it to
10%
> ethanol in fuel, and I noticed a slightly slimy surface, but it
still
> stuck very well with prolonged exposure.
>
> My lessons learned are to make the urethane sight tube easy to
replace
> on the annual inspection and stick with the urethane tube. The FAA
> requires some sort of visual fuel check before flight, so it works
for
> me. Plumbed the way I show it in my website, allows it to be useful
in
> flight also. Electronically, I use the capacitance fuel probes for
fuel
> measuring with a Mitchell or similar gauge and calibrate the probe
at
> 0-5-10-and 15 gallons to correspond to the 1/4,1/2,3/4, full,
points. I
> must admit, that changing the face of the gauge is the way to go. I
do
> it in shop and should have Mitchell change the face on a custom
order.
> They will do it for a price.
>
>
> Thought this may be of interest.
>
> Bud Yerly
> Custom Flight Creations
> (813) 653-4989
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com>
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: No Slipper Clutch?
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com>
Hi Troy,
We bought our 912S not long after they became available, and although we
wanted the slipper clutch we were told none was available for the 912S.
We had terrible starting problems for years, with the engine going into
sub-idle harmonic running that literally shook things off the engine.
We bought the heavy duty starter, which made little improvement. We
then heard the factory was only selling the 912S with slipper clutches
now, so we upgraded our gearbox with one. That cured our starting
problems, we are not sure why, but it made a dramatic difference.
I know this is actually the opposite of your question, but I thought it
worth mentioning.
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Troy Maynor
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:33 PM
Subject: Europa-List: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi All,
Just a question to all for a start : How many are running the 912S
without the heavy duty starter but with the slipper clutch?
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 22, 2008
Although Mode S is not yet mandatory in the UK it is already making its
presence felt in Europe making touring abroad more difficult. As I will
be doing an update on my panel this winter I have started looking at the
options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice
would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on
the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack on
the Europa and weighs nearly twice as much as the 320. As my panel is
optimised for a 6.25" wide avionics stack the only transponder that
seems to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31 transponder. Has anyone
else looked into this yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?
Regards
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Maximum flap extension?
From: "zwakie" <marcel(at)zwakie.com>
Date: Aug 22, 2008
Hey Frans, surprised to see you're working on an Europa. We have to talk Europa
when we meet!
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
From: "zwakie" <marcel(at)zwakie.com>
Date: Aug 22, 2008
I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years of
age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since a couple
of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about buying
my own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the know the
reasons why :wink: ), and instead of building one myself I will be looking
for one that is for sale.
During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations Branch
website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of incident-reports
involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to be fewer incidents occur
over time. I have read most of these reports (don't ask!) to learn more about
Europa's and what to expect from this type of aircraft.
One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number of
incidents occurred with the mono-gear type.
Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear incidents
were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or not being
able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be the two most
common causes.
What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with experienced
pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of hours, quite
often also with hundreds of hours on type).
Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross- and/or
gusty winds, but the number of incidents were significantly lower.
Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide between
a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if flying the mono-gear
is that much more difficult as compared to the nose-wheel. I also would
like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa compares to f.i. Cessna's
152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and landings.
All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making process is
highly appreciated!
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
zwakie a crit :
> Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide between
a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if flying the
mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the nose-wheel. I also would
like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa compares to f.i. Cessna's
152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and landings.
>
> All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making process
is highly appreciated!
>
>
Zwakie,
The only thing we can take for granted is that nosewheel aircraft are
usueally easier on takeoff and landing than their taildragger
counterparts, especially in a strong crosswind.
I was never offered the opportunity to ride or fly a Europa, but my
answer to such a question would be "Arrange to fly both models in order
to get an opinion by yourself".
I'm sure you'll have no difficuly finding a Europa pilot willing to take
you on board to get a feeling of his dreambird.
If you are reasonably well trained and proficient, a reasonably
experienced pilot will have no problems leaving you the control for the
takeoff and landing in a well behaved airplane.
If he insists on keeping the controls, then ask another pilot in another
airplane ;-)
But don't launch in a project before having flown the model you are
considering. Or at the very least, have a competent and reliable pilot
friend fly it for you.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Date: Aug 22, 2008
<>
Not necessarily.
The tri gear can be steered only by its rudder and mainwheel brakes. The
fixed taildragger can elect also to keep its tailwheel on the ground for
additional steering effect, until the rudder is fully effective.
At which point the fixed taildragger can raise its tail to a position that
keeps the mainwheels firmly on the ground; whereas a tri gear would
wheelbarrow if this is to be tried.
The crosswind limitation of the TD is probably therefore higher than the
trigear, for a given level of pilot familiarity.
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
>
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> zwakie a crit :
>> Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide
>> between a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if
>> flying the mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the
>> nose-wheel. I also would like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa
>> compares to f.i. Cessna's 152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and
>> landings.
>>
>> All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making
>> process is highly appreciated!
>>
>>
>
> Zwakie,
>
> The only thing we can take for granted is that nosewheel aircraft are
> usueally easier on takeoff and landing than their taildragger
> counterparts, especially in a strong crosswind.
> I was never offered the opportunity to ride or fly a Europa, but my answer
> to such a question would be "Arrange to fly both models in order to get an
> opinion by yourself".
> I'm sure you'll have no difficuly finding a Europa pilot willing to take
> you on board to get a feeling of his dreambird.
>
> If you are reasonably well trained and proficient, a reasonably
> experienced pilot will have no problems leaving you the control for the
> takeoff and landing in a well behaved airplane.
> If he insists on keeping the controls, then ask another pilot in another
> airplane ;-)
>
> But don't launch in a project before having flown the model you are
> considering. Or at the very least, have a competent and reliable pilot
> friend fly it for you.
>
> Best regards,
> --
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mode S transponders
Hi Nigel,
For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic. Do
you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that
can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?
I just took a look on line and the Trig TT31 looks like a nice compact unit.
Regards, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2008
From: TIMOTHY PHILIP WARD <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi Troy,
Yes, I am. Why?
Cheers,
Tim
> Hi All,
> Just a question to all for a start : How many are
> running the 912S
> without the heavy duty starter but with the slipper
> clutch?
>
>
> Troy Maynor
> N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
> Left to finish:
> Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
> Weaverville, NC USA
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>
> Forums!
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton
Christchurch.
New Zealand
Ph. 64 33515166
MOB 0210640221
ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Duncan & Ami McFadyean a crit :
> Not necessarily.
> The tri gear can be steered only by its rudder and mainwheel brakes.
> The fixed taildragger can elect also to keep its tailwheel on the
> ground for additional steering effect, until the rudder is fully
> effective.
> At which point the fixed taildragger can raise its tail to a position
> that keeps the mainwheels firmly on the ground; whereas a tri gear
> would wheelbarrow if this is to be tried.
> The crosswind limitation of the TD is probably therefore higher than
> the trigear, for a given level of pilot familiarity.
Duncan,
I suppose you are talking about Europa models, which I never flew.
Nevertheless, I recently had to cancel flights on a taildragger in a
27/G40 kt wind whereas I had no problems taxiing with the nosewheel
counterpart.
Also, on 9 th of August, while taking off Duxford with only circa 18/20
kt from the left, the wind was being strongly felt while it usually
poses no problem in a nosewheel aircraftt.
BTW, how come we were the *only* visiting airplane on this "taildragger
and Robin" bonus day ? I was hoping to see some British Europas.
Maybe is it the fact that we had to cross the Channel on our way back at
600 ft in rain ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Date: Aug 22, 2008
Zwakie-
The other thing you need to keep in mind is insurance and resale of the airplane.
Both will be much more difficult for the monowheel. All of us have had to
make the choice. I have a bunch of monowheel time in gliders but the Europa
is quite a bit different than them. I went the trigear route, which I think was
the right way to go for me.
Jim Puglise A-283
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "zwakie" <marcel(at)zwakie.com>
>
> I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years of
> age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since a couple
> of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about buying my
> own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the know the
> reasons why :wink: ), and instead of building one myself I will be looking for
> one that is for sale.
>
> During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations
> Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of
> incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to be fewer
> incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't ask!) to
> learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of aircraft.
>
> One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number of
> incidents occurred with the mono-gear type.
>
> Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear
> incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or not
> being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be the two
> most common causes.
>
> What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with
> experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of hours,
> quite often also with hundreds of hours on type).
>
> Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross- and/or
> gusty winds, but the number of incidents were significantly lower.
>
> Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide between
> a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if flying the
> mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the nose-wheel. I also
> would like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa compares to f.i. Cessna's
> 152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and landings.
>
> All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making process
is
> highly appreciated!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Zwakie-
The other thing you need to keep in mind is insurance and resale of the airplane.
Both will be much more difficult for the monowheel. All of
us have had to make the choice. I have a bunch of monowheel time in gliders
but the Europa is quite a bit different than them. I went the trigear
route, which I think was the right way to go for me.
Jim Puglise A-283
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "zwakie"
>
> I'm new here, so let me first introduce
myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years of
> age and from The Netherlands.
I am a private pilot license holder since a couple
> of years, currently
about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about buying my
> own
plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the know the
>
reasons why :wink: ), and instead of building one myself I will be looking
for
> one that is for sale.
>
> During my search on the web
I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations
> Branch website, and
what kind of struck me there is the high number of
> incident-reports
involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to b
e fewe
r
> incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't
ask!) to
> learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type
of aircraft.
>
> One picture that evolved from these reports was
that a relative high number of
> incidents occurred with the mono-gear
type.
>
> Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant
number of mono-gear
> incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering
and locking the gear or not
> being able to properly deal with cross-
and/or gusty winds seem to be the two
> most common causes.
>
> What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with
> experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots
of hours,
> quite often also with hundreds of hours on type).
>
> Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to
cross- and/or
> gusty winds, but the number of
incid
Searc
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "tony.bale(at)virgin.net" <tony.bale(at)virgin.net>
Date: Aug 22, 2008
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Marcel, welcome to the forum. I won't go on too much about the Europa other
than to say it is fun to fly, economical and fairly fast - you will
probably no most of this already. I fly a monowheel and would advise your
findings about crosswinds are correct, the mono can be tricky and I am told
by pilot's far more experienced than me, that they are quite different to
fly than other taildraggers.
I would strongly advise that if someone allows you to take off a mono
without an instructor or well experienced pilot on type with you, you tread
carefully.
Having said that, in normal conditions and wind direction it is quite
docile, but must hold your complete concentration at all times.
I would not consider a trike or conventional set up but that is simply my
choice, I like retractables. And if you do decide to take the plunge you
will love the flying, and I strongly recommend a VP prop - I sit behind an
Airmaster and think it's the best addition you can fit.
Interestingly at our strip we have a Tecnam Sierra, Sport Cruiser and RV9.
I have flown in formation with the Tecnam and can confirm it appears
significantly slower, The Sport Cruiser is yet to start its test programme
but I suspect will perform the same, and the RV9 is pretty much untouchable
!
Hope this helps, good luck !
Tony.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: zwakie marcel(at)zwakie.com
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:12:26 +0300
Subject: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years
of age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since
a couple of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking
about buying my own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you
all the know the reasons why :wink: ), and instead of building one myself
I will be looking for one that is for sale.
During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations
Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of
incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to be
fewer incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't
ask!) to learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of
aircraft.
One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number
of incidents occurred with the mono-gear type.
Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear
incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or
not being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be
the two most common causes.
What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with
experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of
hours, quite often also with hundreds of hours on type).
Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross-
and/or gusty winds, but the number of incidents were significantly lower.
Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide
between a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if
flying the mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the
nose-wheel. I also would like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa
compares to f.i. Cessna's 152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and
landings.
All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making
process is highly appreciated!
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hans Siedsma" <H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net>
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 22, 2008
I have installed a Trig TT31 in the Europa. Works perfect en easy to handle.
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens nigel charles
Verzonden: vrijdag 22 augustus 2008 20:12
Aan: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
Urgentie: Laag
Although Mode S is not yet mandatory in the UK it is already making its
presence felt in Europe making touring abroad more difficult. As I will be
doing an update on my panel this winter I have started looking at the
options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice would
initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on the
specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack on the
Europa and weighs nearly twice as much as the 320. As my panel is optimised
for a 6.25" wide avionics stack the only transponder that seems to fit the
bill looks to be the Trig TT31 transponder. Has anyone else looked into this
yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?
Regards
Nigel Charles
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: Rowland Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Re: Mode S transponders
>As my panel is optimised for a 6.25" wide
>avionics stack the only transponder that seems
>to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31
>transponder. Has anyone else looked into this
>yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?
Nigel - my panel is still in a "soft" state so I
don't have your contsraints, but of those I've
looked at under =A32k I am leaning towards the
=46ilser TRT800 which has the advantage of a
built-in alticoder. Both the Becker
BXP6401-2-(01) and the TRIG TT31 need an external
coder which adds to the cost. The Becker is the
shortest at 205mm and the Filser the lightest at
600g - the Trig is 1350g but puts out 240W
compared to only 100W for the Filser.
Incidentally the Garmin GTX328 while too long for
a Europa panel at 286mm also lacks the extended
squitter needed for ADS-B, so it's theoretically
less future-proof than the others. The Filser is
the only one that provides an active/standby
squawk display like the typical comms radio, and
that's about the only useful feature I see
missing from the TRIG. Filser also do a TRT800A
which seems to be much the same unit as the
TRT800, re-packaged 6.25" wide, so you might
consider that one.
As an electronic engineer, the impresssion I have
of the TRIG and the people who developed it is
that it is well designed and should be a solid
performer, but I have no hard facts or direct
experience to back that up.
I attach a PDF of my comparison sheet - at the
time I prepared it I wasn't able to get anything
about the Becker BXP6403 apart from a new-product
annoucement.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1080 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: "Christoph Both" <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Hi,
The MicroAir Transponder is very nice and it fits perfectly with the
round 2 1/4 inch 760 COM. Nice pair. Each weights about 500 grams and
easily fits the Europa stack. That is several pounds saved over some of
the square boxes. They use very little power so you can use them in
glide mode as well.
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, NS
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Rowland Carson
Sent: Fri 8/22/2008 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
>As my panel is optimised for a 6.25" wide
>avionics stack the only transponder that seems
>to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31
>transponder. Has anyone else looked into this
>yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?
Nigel - my panel is still in a "soft" state so I
don't have your contsraints, but of those I've
looked at under =A32k I am leaning towards the
Filser TRT800 which has the advantage of a
built-in alticoder. Both the Becker
BXP6401-2-(01) and the TRIG TT31 need an external
coder which adds to the cost. The Becker is the
shortest at 205mm and the Filser the lightest at
600g - the Trig is 1350g but puts out 240W
compared to only 100W for the Filser.
Incidentally the Garmin GTX328 while too long for
a Europa panel at 286mm also lacks the extended
squitter needed for ADS-B, so it's theoretically
less future-proof than the others. The Filser is
the only one that provides an active/standby
squawk display like the typical comms radio, and
that's about the only useful feature I see
missing from the TRIG. Filser also do a TRT800A
which seems to be much the same unit as the
TRT800, re-packaged 6.25" wide, so you might
consider that one.
As an electronic engineer, the impresssion I have
of the TRIG and the people who developed it is
that it is well designed and should be a solid
performer, but I have no hard facts or direct
experience to back that up.
I attach a PDF of my comparison sheet - at the
time I prepared it I wasn't able to get anything
about the Becker BXP6403 apart from a new-product
annoucement.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1080 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2008
From: Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi Troy,
Yes I am. Only problem is the cold winter starts down
here in the 'cold antarctic blasts' we get. One needs
a combination of a good starter, good battery and good
technique. In particular the last two. The original
starter has not been the problem as recently I have
perfected a better technique and have had no
problems.Slipper clutch is well worth it, from
experience!!
Cheers,
Tim
--- Troy Maynor wrote:
> Hi All,
> Just a question to all for a start : How many are
> running the 912S without
> the heavy duty starter but with the slipper clutch?
>
>
> Troy Maynor
> N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
> Left to finish:
> Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
> Weaverville, NC USA
>
>
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton
Christchurch.
New Zealand
Ph. 64 33515166
MOB 0210640221
ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: No Slipper Clutch?
From: "europaman" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 23, 2008
All,
The reason I asked is this. I felt I needed it to protect my engine in the event
of a prop strike, God forbid. So in talking to Lockwood they quoted me a price,
told me how to get it off etc, never mentioning any downside to it, even though
I said I could not fit the HD starter. A few days later, speaking to the
same guy, to get the shipping address, he said if I did not put the HD starter
on too, starting would be very difficult and advised against it. This is impossible
with the classic FWF. This was after I already had the gearbox off and
boxed up to ship. I am seeking advise from the folks that know, you guys. I prefer
the classic cowling for many reasons, mainly the money and time invested,
it's painted, and I want to fly!!!! I may go ahead and send it in a few days
depending on what I learn. Thanks for the helping hands, or wings, to get me
into the air.
Troy Maynor
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2008
From: Paul Boulet <possibletodo(at)YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Hi All;
I originally built my XS as a mono wheel.- I was very unhappy with the co
nfiguration and converted it to Tri Gear which I love.- I take off and la
nd much more like a Mooney than a Cessna- with full flaps on a Cessna you s
imply point the nose higher and higher while with a Mooney (and my XS) I ho
ld a configuartion and let the speed bleed off.
-
And in case any of you don't know, my tri gear is for sale- email me for de
tails off list if interested
-
Paul Boulet, Malibu, California- N914PB
--- On Fri, 8/22/08, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net wrote:
From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net <jimpuglise(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 1:54 PM
Zwakie-
-
The other thing you need to keep in mind is insurance and resale of the air
plane.- Both will be much more difficult for the monowheel.- All of us
have had to make the choice.- I have a bunch of monowheel time in gliders
but the Europa is quite a bit different than them.- I went the trigear r
oute, which I think was the right way to go for me.
-
Jim Puglise A-283
-
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "zwakie" <marcel(at)zwakie.com>
>
> I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 yea
rs of
> age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since a
couple
> of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about buyi
ng my
> own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the know t
he
> reasons why :wink: ), and instead of building one myself I will be lookin
g for
> one that is for sale.
>
> During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigatio
ns
> Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of
> incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to b e f
ewe r
> incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't ask!)
to
> learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of aircraft.
>
> One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high numb
er of
> incidents occurred with the mono-gear type.
>
> Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gea
r
> incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear o
r not
> being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be the
two
> most common causes.
>
> What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with
> experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of h
ours,
> quite often also with hundreds of hours on type).
>
> Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross- a
nd/or
> gusty winds, but the number of incid Searc
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: No Slipper Clutch?
Date: Aug 22, 2008
John and all,
Found this on Kodiac's website refering to the gearboxes with or without
slipper clutches. FWIW. So let me know what you find out. I'm trying to
justify whether or not to spend $1,200.00 to get Lockwood to install one.
Troy
-----Original Message-----
From: John & Paddy Wigney [mailto:johnwigney(at)alltel.net]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi Troy,
I have the original starter and it has never given me any trouble in
getting a reliable start. I have no idea if I have the slipper clutch -
this has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Does anyone know how I
determine this?
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
Subject: Europa-List: No Slipper Clutch?
Hi All,
Just a question to all for a start : How many are running the 912S without
the heavy duty starter but with the slipper clutch?
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 23, 2008
>For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic. Do
you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that
can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?<
I have no knowledge on this. Best to contact Trig direct.
Nigel
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Date: Aug 23, 2008
Hi Marcel,
You have touched on a hotly debated subject - Mono versus Trigear.
I originally built a Monowheel Europa with a Rotax 912S and Airmaster
variable pitch prop. It was a very capable aircraft, enormous fun to fly
and no real problem taking off and landing on grass. I found it quite
challenging to land in a crosswind on tarmac and eventually decided to
convert the aircraft to Trigear configuration. It is now a much more
forgiving aircraft to land in crosswinds but it does not enjoy bumpy grass
so much. If the aircraft has been modified to fit steel nosewheel springs
instead of the original bungee cords it can get quite "bouncy" if not
handled carefully on bumpy surfaces.
As with most aircraft types, once you have developed your technique none of
these things are a real problem.
Most Trigear are about 16Kg heavier than an equivalent Monowheel and tend to
use slightly more fuel. The difference only really shows up on long
distance touring were the Mono has the edge on performance. If you intend
to do long distance touring and want to exploit the full capacity of the
aircraft in terms of full fuel, two people and ample baggage, look for a
Europa that is no more than 400Kg empty weight.
>From a pure enjoyment angle I found the Mono much more challenging and much
more fun. As a Trigear it gives me a much more relaxed flying experience
and more enjoyable touring.
There are a number of high quality Europas fore sale at the moment so this
is a good time to buy. I suggest you join the Europa Club and get access to
a great deal of additional help and information. Go to their website
www.europaclub.org.uk and follow the links to join online.
Best regards
Brian Davies, Membership Sec.
The Europa Club
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of zwakie
Sent: 22 August 2008 20:12
Subject: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years
of age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since a
couple of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about
buying my own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the
know the reasons why :wink: ), and instead of building one myself I will be
looking for one that is for sale.
During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations
Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of
incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to be fewer
incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't ask!) to
learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of aircraft.
One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number
of incidents occurred with the mono-gear type.
Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear
incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or
not being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be
the two most common causes.
What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with
experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of
hours, quite often also with hundreds of hours on type).
Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross-
and/or gusty winds, but the number of incidents were significantly lower.
Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide
between a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if
flying the mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the
nose-wheel. I also would like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa
compares to f.i. Cessna's 152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and
landings.
All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making
process is highly appreciated!
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
06:48
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2008
From: Rowland Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Mode S transponders
>
>>For me the big attraction would be to be able to display traffic. Do
>you happen to know if the Trig TT31 has a data output for traffic that
>can me interfaced into Garmin 430's or compatible device ?<
>
>I have no knowledge on this. Best to contact Trig direct.
Nigel - here's a quote from one of Trig's excellently-produced PDFs
(brochure, user manual, installation guide - all available for free
download on their website):
"The TT31 will support Traffic Information Service (TIS) functions,
where available, by interfacing to an appropriate cockpit display.
ADS-B and TIS functions will be made available as a software-only
field upgrade."
Hope this helps.
regards
Rowland
--
| Wilma & Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/
| ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: No Slipper Clutch?
Date: Aug 23, 2008
From: "Christoph Both" <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Hi,
I ordered my 912S for the Classic FWF from Rotec which are the
authorized DISTRIBUTOR for Canada. They changed the originally installed
HD started to the normal starter and said it would be just fine.
Christoph Both #223 Wolfville, NS
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of europaman
Sent: Fri 8/22/2008 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: No Slipper Clutch?
All,
The reason I asked is this. I felt I needed it to protect my engine in
the event of a prop strike, God forbid. So in talking to Lockwood they
quoted me a price, told me how to get it off etc, never mentioning any
downside to it, even though I said I could not fit the HD starter. A few
days later, speaking to the same guy, to get the shipping address, he
said if I did not put the HD starter on too, starting would be very
difficult and advised against it. This is impossible with the classic
FWF. This was after I already had the gearbox off and boxed up to ship.
I am seeking advise from the folks that know, you guys. I prefer the
classic cowling for many reasons, mainly the money and time invested,
it's painted, and I want to fly!!!! I may go ahead and send it in a few
days depending on what I learn. Thanks for the helping hands, or wings,
to get me into the air.
Troy Maynor
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2008
From: "David Buckley" <wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com>
Subject: No Slipper Clutch?
IHMO don't fly a mono without a slipper clutch. To miquote the old
aviation saying, there are two types of mono pilots, those who have and
those who will !
Dave
G-CCGW
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2008
From: "David Buckley" <wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Hi Marcel
I had a Europa share from 1999 to 2005. It was originally a mono, but due
to the fact that several pilots in our group were low houred, we converted
it to a trike, (in fact I think ours was one of the first customer trikes
flying).
It was certainly much easier to land and take off as a trike, but can still
be quite tricky until you have some experience - especially on bumpy grass
surfaces.
However, as Brian noted, the mono is better as a touring aircraft - slightly
faster, slightly less fuel consumption, and slightly lighter. But all these
"slightly's" add up.
After a few years without a Europa ( I restored and flew a Luscombe 8A by
way of a change), I have just bought another example - and chose the mono!
I certainly would not advise flying the mono without either a good amount of
tailwheel time, or preferably an extensive type conversion course with an
experienced *Europa experienced* flying instructor/coach.
All the best with your decision. Whichever you go for, the Europa is a
brilliant little aircraft to own and fly.
Dave
G-CCGW
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
From: "zwakie" <marcel(at)zwakie.com>
Date: Aug 23, 2008
First, many thanks to the numerous people who provided me with lots of valuable
information to my questions, both here on the forum as well as by sending me
direct emails.
The overall tone of the responses I received, seem to confirm my suspicion about
flying mono-wheels. I was pleasantly surprised about the responses I received
from a couple of 'mono-wheel-guys' who informed me about the Europa mono not
being the typical taildragger, having some quirks of it's own. In translated
the many advises into: 'be careful trying to tame this animal' and 'don't try
to fly a mono without extensive training from an instructor/pilot that has extensive
experience on type'.
Economical reasons (insurance/resale) and safety-reasons (higher level of required
skill to handle a mono-wheel safely in all situations as opposed to a tri-gear)
have lead to a decision: I will focus on a tri-gear from now on.
OK, this question has been answered, many more to answer in the next stage of compiling
the list of specs...
Again, thanks to you all!
Marcel
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 23, 2008
Hi Nigel,
I have replaced my GTX320 by a 328. In spite of being deeper, the 328
fits perfectly in the same place as the 320. Same panel cut out, too.
However, a 90 degree elbow antenna connector is required. Same panel cut
out, too.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL
options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice
would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on
the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack on
the Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2008
From: "nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Mode S transponders
Thanks for all the inputs on transponder selection. I was surprised to
hear that it was possible to fit the Garmin 328as it is significantly
longer than a Garmin/Apollo SL40 radio which only just fits. I guess
the extra length must all be in the connector.
Having trawled the net for more info I have come to a similar
conclusion to Rowland. The points which I found to be significant were
as follows:
1. The Garmin 328 is a tight fit and is by far the heaviest and is
more limited in its capabilities
2. The Trig and the Filser are both much lighter with the Filser
including the encoder which saves even more weight and is simpler to
connect up.
3. The Filser is the cheapest of those available that fit in the
normal avionics stack.
4. The Filser offers a flip/flop type code selection like most radios.
5. The Garmin is the only one to offer dedicated number buttons for
entering codes. We use this way of inputting codes in our airliner
transponders and it is by far the easiest.
6. The power output is a little confusing. Most of them offer 250W
output from the set with an estimated 125W at the antenna. Some
manufacturers quote set power and others antenna power.
7. The Becker is significantly more expensive than the rest and seems
to offer no advantages to justify the extra price.
>From the above, on balance the Filser seems to be the most suitable
for my requirements.
Regards
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-
server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Remi Guerner
Sent: 23 August 2008 19:29
Subject: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
Hi Nigel,
I have replaced my GTX320 by a 328. In spite of being deeper, the 328
fits perfectly in the same place as the 320. Same panel cut out, too.
However, a 90 degree elbow antenna connector is required. Same panel
cut out, too.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL
options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice
would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on
the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack
on
the Europa
How safe is your email? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail
__________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
From: "steve v " <s(at)vestuti.orangehome.co.uk>
Date: Aug 24, 2008
Hi, i just thought i would add that even though there
is no mention in the build manual ,the trigears main gear can come in usefull shoud
you become entangled with pylon cables...
steve #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard <lgds(at)post6.tele.dk>
Subject: Rotax 914 with 500 hours and complete firewall forward pack
for Europa for sale
Date: Aug 24, 2008
Hi all
I have a complete FF pack and an Rotax 914 engine in perfect condition
for sale - 500 hours.
Give me an offer off line on lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
Regards Gert
Gert Dalgaard Soerensen
Stabelvej 9, Haarby
DK 8660 Skanderborg
Denmark
Europa builder No. 151
Europa Mono / Rotax 914
AC reg.: OY-GDS
Phone.: +45 8695 0595
E mail: lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2008
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
Having purchased an XS kit from an individual, who had never started
work, I got a mono. Before buying, however, I took a ride with John
Hurst, who only had a mono to demonstrate. After watching an
experienced pilot, like John, handle the mono on concrete, I quickly
made the decision to go Tri-gear. I've never regretted that decision.
As for handling on rough grass (I'm hangared on a 3k grass strip), there
certainly is a little bounce, however, the secret, I've found, is to
keep the nose high at all times. Even in fast taxi it makes a huge
difference. I've got over 500 landings on this surface, with no ill
effects to plane or pilot... :)
Jeff - Baby Blue
Brian Davies wrote:
>
> Hi Marcel,
>
> You have touched on a hotly debated subject - Mono versus Trigear.
>
> I originally built a Monowheel Europa with a Rotax 912S and Airmaster
> variable pitch prop. It was a very capable aircraft, enormous fun to fly
> and no real problem taking off and landing on grass. I found it quite
> challenging to land in a crosswind on tarmac and eventually decided to
> convert the aircraft to Trigear configuration. It is now a much more
> forgiving aircraft to land in crosswinds but it does not enjoy bumpy grass
> so much. If the aircraft has been modified to fit steel nosewheel springs
> instead of the original bungee cords it can get quite "bouncy" if not
> handled carefully on bumpy surfaces.
>
> As with most aircraft types, once you have developed your technique none of
> these things are a real problem.
>
> Most Trigear are about 16Kg heavier than an equivalent Monowheel and tend to
> use slightly more fuel. The difference only really shows up on long
> distance touring were the Mono has the edge on performance. If you intend
> to do long distance touring and want to exploit the full capacity of the
> aircraft in terms of full fuel, two people and ample baggage, look for a
> Europa that is no more than 400Kg empty weight.
>
>>From a pure enjoyment angle I found the Mono much more challenging and much
> more fun. As a Trigear it gives me a much more relaxed flying experience
> and more enjoyable touring.
>
> There are a number of high quality Europas fore sale at the moment so this
> is a good time to buy. I suggest you join the Europa Club and get access to
> a great deal of additional help and information. Go to their website
> www.europaclub.org.uk and follow the links to join online.
>
> Best regards
>
> Brian Davies, Membership Sec.
> The Europa Club
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of zwakie
> Sent: 22 August 2008 20:12
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?
>
>
> I'm new here, so let me first introduce myself: my name is Marcel, 45 years
> of age and from The Netherlands. I am a private pilot license holder since a
> couple of years, currently about 125 hours in my logbook and thinking about
> buying my own plane. I have decided to go for an Europa (I guess you all the
> know the reasons why :wink: ), and instead of building one myself I will be
> looking for one that is for sale.
>
> During my search on the web I also visited the Air Accidents Investigations
> Branch website, and what kind of struck me there is the high number of
> incident-reports involving Europa's, even though the trend seems to be fewer
> incidents occur over time. I have read most of these reports (don't ask!) to
> learn more about Europa's and what to expect from this type of aircraft.
>
> One picture that evolved from these reports was that a relative high number
> of incidents occurred with the mono-gear type.
>
> Besides incidents with technical causes, a significant number of mono-gear
> incidents were caused by pilot error: not lowering and locking the gear or
> not being able to properly deal with cross- and/or gusty winds seem to be
> the two most common causes.
>
> What surprised me was that of these pilot-error incidents occurred with
> experienced pilots on the controls (experienced as in: lots and lots of
> hours, quite often also with hundreds of hours on type).
>
> Obviously incidents also occurred on the nose wheel types due to cross-
> and/or gusty winds, but the number of incidents were significantly lower.
>
> Well, I guess you will know where this is leading: I will have to decide
> between a mono-gear or nose-wheel Europa, and would like to find out if
> flying the mono-gear is that much more difficult as compared to the
> nose-wheel. I also would like to get some idea of how a nose-wheel Europa
> compares to f.i. Cessna's 152/172 in terms of handling it in take-off and
> landings.
>
> All information that you can provide to help me in my decision-making
> process is highly appreciated!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 06:48
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2008
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: RE: No Slipper Clutch?
Troy,
Before spending the bucks with Lockwood, talk to Ronnie Smith at South
Mississippi Light Aircraft (601) 947-4953. He went through my gear box,
yesterday to look for the solution to a rough running problem I've been
experiencing (haven't had any luck locating it, yet, but more on that
later). He completely serviced the box (a slipper) in less than 20
minutes. Wouldn't take a nickel for his time. You might want to check
with him. He may be able to save you some money...
Jeff - Baby Blue
Troy Maynor wrote:
>
> John and all,
> Found this on Kodiac's website refering to the gearboxes with or without
> slipper clutches. FWIW. So let me know what you find out. I'm trying to
> justify whether or not to spend $1,200.00 to get Lockwood to install one.
> Troy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John & Paddy Wigney [mailto:johnwigney(at)alltel.net]
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:54 AM
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com; Maynor, Troy
> Subject: Re: No Slipper Clutch?
>
>
> Hi Troy,
>
> I have the original starter and it has never given me any trouble in
> getting a reliable start. I have no idea if I have the slipper clutch -
> this has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Does anyone know how I
> determine this?
>
> Cheers, John
> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
>
> ORIGINAL MESSAGE
> From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
> Subject: Europa-List: No Slipper Clutch?
> Hi All,
> Just a question to all for a start : How many are running the 912S without
> the heavy duty starter but with the slipper clutch?
> Troy Maynor
> N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
> Left to finish:
> Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
> Weaverville, NC USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2008
From: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Subject: Re: Pete and 'here we go....'
Great to hear that you got it sorted.
(I hate computers..... a neccessary evil in these times tho)
Cheers,
Pete :-)
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote:
> Pete,
> Many thanks, because it worked out fine for me. Funny because I had
> just printed out another mod without a hassle, and that 'frame' event
> arrived and put the kibosh to the plan. Frustration relieved!
> Much obliged,
> Ferg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Mode S transponders
Date: Jan 01, 1988
Apparently not considered in the analysis is the cost of a service if the
encoder drifts out of calibration.
With a separate encoder, it can be cheaper to replace with a new item,
whereas with an embedded encoder it's a costly service with downtime?
My personal preference is for the Filser (with extended squitter and higher
output, for future-proofing), because it is light and compact, and because
it is widely used on the Continent. However there have been recent
additional software problems; still doesn't put me off as the factory is
fixing these.
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rowland Carson" <rowil(at)clara.net>
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
>As my panel is optimised for a 6.25" wide
>avionics stack the only transponder that seems
>to fit the bill looks to be the Trig TT31
>transponder. Has anyone else looked into this
>yet? If so what conclusions have you come to?
Nigel - my panel is still in a "soft" state so I
don't have your contsraints, but of those I've
looked at under 2k I am leaning towards the
Filser TRT800 which has the advantage of a
built-in alticoder. Both the Becker
BXP6401-2-(01) and the TRIG TT31 need an external
coder which adds to the cost. The Becker is the
shortest at 205mm and the Filser the lightest at
600g - the Trig is 1350g but puts out 240W
compared to only 100W for the Filser.
Incidentally the Garmin GTX328 while too long for
a Europa panel at 286mm also lacks the extended
squitter needed for ADS-B, so it's theoretically
less future-proof than the others. The Filser is
the only one that provides an active/standby
squawk display like the typical comms radio, and
that's about the only useful feature I see
missing from the TRIG. Filser also do a TRT800A
which seems to be much the same unit as the
TRT800, re-packaged 6.25" wide, so you might
consider that one.
As an electronic engineer, the impresssion I have
of the TRIG and the people who developed it is
that it is well designed and should be a solid
performer, but I have no hard facts or direct
experience to back that up.
I attach a PDF of my comparison sheet - at the
time I prepared it I wasn't able to get anything
about the Becker BXP6403 apart from a new-product
annoucement.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1080 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Siggery <ksiggery(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 25, 2008
kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear
(as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the
bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a
bungee but are thinking of changing).
Kevin Siggery
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Kevin,
I changed my bungee prior to first flight as after 5 years of sitting on the
ground it had already extended and needed tightening/changing. As far as I
am concerned the springs are fit and forget. No regrets at all.
Regards
Steve Pitt G-SMDH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Siggery" <ksiggery(at)mac.com>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
>
> kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear
> (as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the
> bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a bungee
> but are thinking of changing).
>
> Kevin Siggery
>
>
>
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bryan Allsop <bryanallsop(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Last of the Summer wine
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Hi All=2C
I have had surprisingly few communications=2C so I am guessing the everyone
is happily looking forward to next Wednesday.
I have to remind everyone of the following.
It must be clearly understood that each and every pilot is responsible for
the safety of their own safety=2C and that of their passengers and aeroplan
es. Should there any misfortunes neither I=2C nor the Europa Club can accep
t any responsibility.
On behalf of the Club I have suggested a rendezvous to meet up. For anyone
wishing to join me it their own responsibility to make proper judgements on
the advisability of doing so=2C and how to do it. Subsequent rendezvous on
the trip will be discussed on a daily basis=2C but it will be up to each p
ilot and crew to decide what they want to do.
If it is half as nice as it was last year I know we are going to have a nic
e time.
Please acknowledge this e-mail simply by pressing your "reply" button.
Regards to all. Bryan
_________________________________________________________________
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be=97learn how to burn a DVD with Win
dows=AE.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2008
From: "David Buckley" <wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Ran the bungee nose leg system for five years. I found it must be well
tensioned, and requires at least yearly maintenence. Never tried the
springs, but should be good.
dave
2008/8/25 Kevin Siggery
>
> kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear (as
> we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the bungee
> nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a bungee but are
> thinking of changing).
>
> Kevin Siggery
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Kevin=2C
The springs didn't work for me. My bungee had been mounted for about 7 year
s (never gave any trouble) it seemed an excellent idea to switch to the spr
ings.
It really dpends which fields you are operating from. I am based at a fairl
y bumpy grass field=2C and the springs turn the aircraft into a bucking bro
nco. Especially on landing=2C unless you push the stick forward=2C
the nose can oscillate to the point where control could be lost by an inexp
erienced pilot.
A bungee is far better for absorbing shock and much more forgiving.
So I recently changed back=2C but had a problem with getting the bungee as
tight as I had before=2C and I now have what to me is the ideal solution: a
spring on one side and a bungee on the other side=2C plus the safety cable
. I should mention one incident with the new bungee=2C where the safety cab
le cut through two strands of the bungee=2C with the safety cable sving me
from a prop strike. So now I have all the safety plus the comfort.
If you are not operating on rough terrain=2C then you shouldn't have to wor
ry with the springs.
Regarding mono versus trigear=2C someone mentioned the better cruise perfor
mance of the mono. Perhaps there is a small advantage but note that it was
a trigear that has flown around the world a couple of times=2C with very ec
onomical fuel consumption and a basic 912. It also made more 'local' flight
s from CA to Alaska and the Bahamas.
The weight advantage is also theoretical. I noticed that some of the more r
ecent monos came in with a higher weight than my tri.
Karl
<html><div></div>> From: ksiggery(at)mac.com> To: europa-list@matronics
.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear=2C what to choose?Mono or
Tri-Gear=2C what to choose...further question..> Date: Mon=2C 25 Aug 2008 0
@mac.com>> > kind of a corollary to the question=3B assuming you then have
a tri-gear > (as we do=3B G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when consid
ering the > bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have
==> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Dave=2C
What does that maintenance consist of ? I never noticed anything unusual wi
th my original bungee=2C and am convinced that they last at least 10 years.
They do need two strong pairs of arms when installing.
Karl
Date: Mon=2C 25 Aug 2008 12:56:44 +0100From: wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com
what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear=2C what to choose...further question..
Ran the bungee nose leg system for five years. I found it must be well ten
sioned=2C and requires at least yearly maintenence. Never tried the spring
s=2C but should be good.
dave
2008/8/25 Kevin Siggery
a corollary to the question=3B assuming you then have a tri-gear (as we do
=3B G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the bungee nosew
heel system compared to the spring system? (we have a bungee but are thinki
ng of changing).
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Garry" <garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 25, 2008
How about "neither". I threw away my bungee cords and welded up the
nosewheel. There is plenty of "give" between the flex of the nosegear and
absorption of the tire. If you need more than that, you're landings need
work.
Garry Stout
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Siggery" <ksiggery(at)mac.com>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
>
> kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear
> (as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the
> bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a bungee
> but are thinking of changing).
>
> Kevin Siggery
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bryan Allsop <bryanallsop(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Last of the Summer wine
Date: Aug 25, 2008
My message regarding "Pilots Responsibilities" was intended for those takin
g part in the LOTSW trip. Please disregard the request to aknowledge if you
are not taking part.
_________________________________________________________________
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be=97learn how to burn a DVD with Win
dows=AE.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2008
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
My bungees needed re tensioning at least once a year, as the front end
got really mushy. After the springs, it's not a problem...
Jeff - Baby Blue
Karl Heindl wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> What does that maintenance consist of ? I never noticed anything unusual
> with my original bungee, and am convinced that they last at least 10
> years. They do need two strong pairs of arms when installing.
>
> Karl
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:56:44 +0100
> From: wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or
> Tri-Gear, what to choose...further question..
>
>
> Ran the bungee nose leg system for five years. I found it must be well
> tensioned, and requires at least yearly maintenence. Never tried the
> springs, but should be good.
>
> dave
>
> 2008/8/25 Kevin Siggery >
>
> >
>
> kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a
> tri-gear (as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when
> considering the bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring
> system? (we have a bungee but are thinking of changing).
>
> *
>
> target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Housman" <rob@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Precisely.
According to the Europa Factory the nosewheel gear leg does all the work, i.
e., flexing, during "normal" landings. The bungee or springs are there to
absorb the load from a really bad landing and therefore should never be
stressed at all. The cable is there simply to limit travel of the arm in
the event of overloading the entire nosegear assembly (which would be
considered more of a crash than a landing).
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
How about "neither". I threw away my bungee cords and welded up the
nosewheel. There is plenty of "give" between the flex of the nosegear and
absorption of the tire. If you need more than that, you're landings need
work.
Garry Stout
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Siggery" <ksiggery(at)mac.com>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
>
> kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear
> (as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the
> bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a bungee
> but are thinking of changing).
>
> Kevin Siggery
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Torque Tube Clamp
From: "Flying Farmer" <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Pat
Thank you for the clamp modification it fits lovely to the tube instead of the
usual way, This saves drilling the nylon bushes and give an all-round better and
safer construction to the Torque Tube. Doing the mod prevents any possible
movement developing and also allows the removal of the Torque Tube easy if required.
I have put some pictures here
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=160966richar&project=270&category=0&log=61455&row=4
Thank you again
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
All
I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last Friday 22. August.
It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the hospital Wells city.
I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
Soon after take off from the Wells airport he adjusted his new prop for cruise
settings.
Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines but hit one tree.
He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched fire.
He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
Jos stated strongly there is nothing from with Europa and its design - it is a
wonderful plane to fly.
I promised my P2 seat will be always reserved for Jos if he ever likes to come
and fly in future.
I think there are hundreds of free P2 seats around the world for Jos.
Lets all give him warm thoughts.
He is the braviest Man I know.
http://www.feuerwehr-marchtrenk.at/homepage/scripts/detail.php?ereignis_pk-2
Raimo Toivio, Finland
OH-XRT
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Erich Trombley" <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Subject: Mono vs. Tri-gear
Jeff, wrote,
"I took a ride with John Hurst, who only had a mono to demonstrate. Aft
er watching an
experienced pilot, like John, handle the mono on concrete, I quickly
made the decision to go Tri-gear. I've never regretted that decision."
Jeff, I am happy for you that you chose the join the Europa community wi
th Baby Blue. The Europa is a great plane; mono or Tri-gear. I only wi
sh that the mono wasn't desparigage in the process of making a case for
the Tri-gear. As a mono pilot who has only flow his plane off of hard s
urfaces (asphalt or conrete) for the last 500 hours I do realize that di
fferent skills are necessary to handle the mono. I also recognize the f
act that these skill can be learned with the aid of competent flight ins
truction. I had zero tailwheel time when I transitioned into the Europa
. With a couple of hours (literally two hours) of training by Bob Linds
ay, my flight instructor transitioned into the Europa. Of course has man
y hundred of hours of tailwheel time and did not find the Europa diffic
ult to handle. He did note that it was differnent than other tailwheel
aircraft that he had flown. My flight instructor then set out to transit
ion train my in my Europa. With the requisite 10 hours of dual complete
I received my tailwheel endorsement and haven't looked back.
____________________________________________________________
Don't let your life go up in flames. Click here for the latest fire saf
tey products.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iige0pW12z0JdavXML0BB91
IFcGOCji9o1AoCbIwkuYiojSL1/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Erich Trombley" <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Subject: Mono vs. Tri-gear
OOPS. I hit the send key instead of spell check.
Jeff, wrote,
"I took a ride with John Hurst, who only had a mono to demonstrate. Aft
er watching an
experienced pilot, like John, handle the mono on concrete, I quickly
made the decision to go Tri-gear. I've never regretted that decision."
Jeff, I am happy for you that you chose the join the Europa community wi
th Baby Blue. The Europa is a great plane; mono or Tri-gear. I only wi
sh that the mono wasn't disparaged in the process of making a case for t
he Tri-gear. As a mono pilot who has only flow his plane off of hard su
rfaces (asphalt or concrete) for the last 500 hours I do realize that di
fferent skills are necessary to handle the mono. I also recognize the f
act that these skill can be learned with the aid of competent flight ins
truction. I had zero tailwheel time when I transitioned into the Europa
. With a couple of hours (literally two hours) of training by Bob Linds
ay, my flight instructor transitioned into the Europa. Of course has man
y hundred of hours of tailwheel time and did not find the Europa diffic
ult to handle. He did note that it was different than other tailwheel a
ircraft that he had flown. My flight instructor then set out to transiti
on train my in my Europa. With the requisite 10 hours of dual complete
I received my tailwheel endorsement and haven't looked back.
The mono is a great plane. I do have to use my feet from the moment I s
tart the plane until the moment I shut it down. I have happy dancing fe
et. This is not a bad thing, it is just what is required. Like any tai
lwheel aircraft you have to keep the thing going straight. Sloppy groun
d handling is not tolerated. I find the mono a joy to fly, all aspects
of it.
In closing, I am happy for any one to join the Europa family with either
a mono or a Tri-gear. Please do not disparage the mono to make a case
for the Tri-gear. Remember there are a lot of mono pilots out their tha
t love their Europa as-is and have no intention of changing the configur
ation of their bird.
Kind regards,
Erich Trombley
N28ET Classic Mono 914
____________________________________________________________
Click here to find the satellite television package that meets your need
s.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iifPTvIzkd8NTUhdE0UlCwX
Z0s3SpWnvr3uV2flHbOsTC4Otx/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Raimo-
Can you provide an address and / or phone number for the Hospital Jos is in? We
would like to send at least a card and maybe phone him. Do you have any idea
how long he will be hospitalized?
Thanks - Jim, A-283, Punta Gorda, FL
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
>
> All
>
> I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last Friday 22. August.
> It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the hospital Wells city.
> I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
>
> Soon after take off from the Wells airport he adjusted his new prop for cruise
> settings.
> Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
> He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines but hit one
> tree.
> He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched fire.
> He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
>
> Jos stated strongly there is nothing from with Europa and its design - it is
a
> wonderful plane to fly.
> I promised my P2 seat will be always reserved for Jos if he ever likes to come
> and fly in future.
> I think there are hundreds of free P2 seats around the world for Jos.
> Lets all give him warm thoughts.
>
> He is the braviest Man I know.
>
> http://www.feuerwehr-marchtrenk.at/homepage/scripts/detail.php?ereignis_pk-2
>
> Raimo Toivio, Finland
> OH-XRT
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Raimo-
Can you provide an address and / or phone number for the Hospital Jos is in?
We would like to send at least a card and maybe phone him. Do you
have any idea how long he will be hospitalized?
Thanks - Jim, A-283, Punta Gorda, FL
> --> Europa-List message posted
by: "Raimo Toivio"
>
> All
>
>
I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last Friday 22. August.
> It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the hospital
Wells city.
> I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
>
> Soon after take off from the Wells airport he adjusted his new prop
for cruise
> settings.
> Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
> He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines
but hit one
> tree.
> He was able to escape from the wreck just
before it catched fire.
> He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
>
> Jos stated strongly there is not
hing f
opa-Li
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2008
From: klaus.dietrich(at)oracle.com
Subject: Finish Europa crash landed near Wels in Austria (LOLW)
Just learned that a finish Europa crash landed near Wels in Austria (LOLW) shortly
after taking off on his return flight from Austria to Finland.
Most probably he attended the Rotax Fly-in which was organized this weekend in
Wels, Austria.
According to the news report the pilot was alone and could exit the plane by himself,
but suffered severe burns; the plane burned and was completely destroyed.
Has anybody more information?
you can find some info on: welsin.tv and search for "Europa"
Klaus
(OE-CKD)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Hello Raimo
What a sad story. Kate and I will always have a P2 seat available for Jos in
Florida. So please tell him to get well soon and we will see him at Sun n
Fun hopefully next year :-)
Give him our very best regards and tell him we are both thinking of him.
Kind Regards
Alan & Kate Burrows
Tri gear N134AB (ex G-CBWF)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 25 August 2008 19:07
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Accident in Austria
All
I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last Friday 22.
August.
It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the hospital Wells
city.
I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
Soon after take off from the Wells airport he adjusted his new prop for
cruise settings.
Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines but hit one
tree.
He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched fire.
He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
Jos stated strongly there is nothing from with Europa and its design - it
is a wonderful plane to fly.
I promised my P2 seat will be always reserved for Jos if he ever likes to
come and fly in future.
I think there are hundreds of free P2 seats around the world for Jos.
Lets all give him warm thoughts.
He is the braviest Man I know.
http://www.feuerwehr-marchtrenk.at/homepage/scripts/detail.php?ereignis_pk=9
52
Raimo Toivio, Finland
OH-XRT
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Jim
I do not know the name of the hospital
but it is near the accident place and there are 1400 beds.
Must be Wel=B4s Central Hospital and this address should be
good enough if you like to send something to Austria.
I will ask him a permission to publish his phone number.
Think he will be hospitalized weeks. He was very near to go.
Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Accident in Austria
Raimo-
Can you provide an address and / or phone number for the Hospital Jos
is in? We would like to send at least a card and maybe phone him. Do
you have any idea how long he will be hospitalized?
Thanks - Jim, A-283, Punta Gorda, FL
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
>
> All
>
> I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last
Friday 22. August.
> It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the
hospital Wells city.
> I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
>
> Soon after take off from the Well=B4s airport he adjusted his new
prop for cruise
> settings.
> Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
> He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines
but hit one
> tree.
> He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched fire.
> He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
>
> Jos stated strongly there is not hing f opa-Li
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Raimo,
Yes, please provide some contact information for Jos. I wish to send
greetings and condolences to our friend.
Thanks,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(99.9% done) Presently fighting gremlins in the instrument panel.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Aug 25, 2008, at 13:47, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Raimo-
>
> Can you provide an address and / or phone number for the Hospital
> Jos is in? We would like to send at least a card and maybe phone
> him. Do you have any idea how long he will be hospitalized?
>
> Thanks - Jim, A-283, Punta Gorda, FL
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
>
> >
> > All
> >
> > I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last
> Friday 22. August.
> > It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the
> hospital Wells city.
> > I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
> >
> > Soon after take off from the Well=B4s airport he adjusted his new
> prop for cruise
> > settings.
> > Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
> > He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines
> but hit one
> > tree.
> > He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched fire.
> > He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
> >
> > Jos stated strongly there is not hing f opa-Li
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2008
From: "David Buckley" <wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
The combination spring / bungee approach sounds like a great solution.
Can't agree about the weight though. Our group converted out mono to a
trike, adding 23 pounds / 10kg. A Hoffmann C/S prop added another 5 kg (
over a warp drive).
Dave
On 25/08/2008, Karl Heindl wrote:
>
> Kevin,
>
> The springs didn't work for me. My bungee had been mounted for about 7
> years (never gave any trouble) it seemed an excellent idea to switch to the
> springs.
> It really dpends which fields you are operating from. I am based at a
> fairly bumpy grass field, and the springs turn the aircraft into a bucking
> bronco. Especially on landing, unless you push the stick forward,
> the nose can oscillate to the point where control could be lost by an
> inexperienced pilot.
> A bungee is far better for absorbing shock and much more forgiving.
> So I recently changed back, but had a problem with getting the bungee as
> tight as I had before, and I now have what to me is the ideal solution: a
> spring on one side and a bungee on the other side, plus the safety cable. I
> should mention one incident with the new bungee, where the safety cable cut
> through two strands of the bungee, with the safety cable sving me from a
> prop strike. So now I have all the safety plus the comfort.
> If you are not operating on rough terrain, then you shouldn't have to worry
> with the springs.
>
> Regarding mono versus trigear, someone mentioned the better cruise
> performance of the mono. Perhaps there is a small advantage but note that it
> was a trigear that has flown around the world a couple of times, with very
> economical fuel consumption and a basic 912. It also made more 'local'
> flights from CA to Alaska and the Bahamas.
> The weight advantage is also theoretical. I noticed that some of the more
> recent monos came in with a higher weight than my tri.
>
> Karl
>
>
>
>
> > From: ksiggery(at)mac.com
> > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or
> Tri-Gear, what to choose...further question..
> > Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:17:09 +0100
> >
> >
> > kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear
> > (as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the
> > bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a
> > bungee but are thinking of changing).
> >
> ====================
> > _=======================
> >
> >
> >
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Bob B,
Address:
Wels=B4s Hospital
Wels
Austria
Phone number (I got a permission to tell it):
Notice: he is not able to talk much!
He will be happy to receive some SMS.
+ 358 - 40 - 500 7853
Raimo
OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Borger
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Accident in Austria
Raimo,
Yes, please provide some contact information for Jos. I wish to send
greetings and condolences to our friend.
Thanks,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(99.9% done) Presently fighting gremlins in the instrument panel.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Aug 25, 2008, at 13:47, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net wrote:
Raimo-
Can you provide an address and / or phone number for the Hospital
Jos is in? We would like to send at least a card and maybe phone him.
Do you have any idea how long he will be hospitalized?
Thanks - Jim, A-283, Punta Gorda, FL
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
>
> All
>
> I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last
Friday 22. August.
> It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the
hospital Wells city.
> I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
>
> Soon after take off from the Well=B4s airport he adjusted his
new prop for cruise
> settings.
> Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
> He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines
but hit one
> tree.
> He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched
fire.
> He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
>
> Jos stated strongly there is not hing f opa-Li
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Alan & Kate
I told him and got a message back "I will VERY surely come to Florida" !
Wishes, Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:17 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Accident in Austria
Hello Raimo
What a sad story. Kate and I will always have a P2 seat available for Jos in
Florida. So please tell him to get well soon and we will see him at Sun n
Fun hopefully next year :-)
Give him our very best regards and tell him we are both thinking of him.
Kind Regards
Alan & Kate Burrows
Tri gear N134AB (ex G-CBWF)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 25 August 2008 19:07
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Accident in Austria
All
I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last Friday 22.
August.
It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the hospital Wells
city.
I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
Soon after take off from the Wells airport he adjusted his new prop for
cruise settings.
Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines but hit one
tree.
He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched fire.
He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
Jos stated strongly there is nothing from with Europa and its design - it
is a wonderful plane to fly.
I promised my P2 seat will be always reserved for Jos if he ever likes to
come and fly in future.
I think there are hundreds of free P2 seats around the world for Jos.
Lets all give him warm thoughts.
He is the braviest Man I know.
http://www.feuerwehr-marchtrenk.at/homepage/scripts/detail.php?ereignis_pk=9
52
Raimo Toivio, Finland
OH-XRT
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 25, 2008
My 5c worth
I went through this dilemma when buying and although the mono looks so much
sexier went for tri gear because it thought a mono would be difficult to
sell if it ever came to it.
Will
Checked by AVG.
13:16
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Fuchs " <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Poor Jos,
My heart goes out to you.
All that work and very little time for a payoff. I hope you have a speedy
recovery.
My best wishes to you in the hospital and when you get back.
Greg Fuchs
On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
All
I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last Friday 22.
August.
It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the hospital Wells
city.
I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
Soon after take off from the Wells airport he adjusted his new prop for
cruise settings.
Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines but hit one
tree.
He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched fire.
He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
Jos stated strongly there is nothing from with Europa and its design - it
is a wonderful plane to fly.
I promised my P2 seat will be always reserved for Jos if he ever likes to
come and fly in future.
I think there are hundreds of free P2 seats around the world for Jos.
Lets all give him warm thoughts.
He is the braviest Man I know.
http://www.feuerwehr-marchtrenk.at/homepage/scripts/detail.php?ereignis_pk=9
52
Raimo Toivio, Finland
OH-XRT
________________________________________________________________________________
From: rlborger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Accident in Austria
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Raimo,
I am having issues with overseas SMS. Please pass along the following
message for me:
Jos,
We are very sorry to hear of your accident. You will be in our
prayers for a speedy recovery. Remember, there will always be a seat
for you in any aircraft I have.
Get well soon.
Bob & Maureen Borger
Thanks,
Bob
On Aug 25, 2008, at 3:15 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
> Bob B,
>
> Address:
>
> Wels=B4s Hospital
> Wels
> Austria
>
> Phone number (I got a permission to tell it):
>
> Notice: he is not able to talk much!
> He will be happy to receive some SMS.
>
> + 358 - 40 - 500 7853
>
> Raimo
> OH-XRT
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert Borger
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Accident in Austria
>
> Raimo,
>
> Yes, please provide some contact information for Jos. I wish to
> send greetings and condolences to our friend.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob Borger
> Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
> http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
> (99.9% done) Presently fighting gremlins in the instrument panel.
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208
> Home: 940-497-2123
> Cel: 817-992-1117
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2008, at 13:47, jimpuglise(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>> Raimo-
>>
>> Can you provide an address and / or phone number for the Hospital
>> Jos is in? We would like to send at least a card and maybe phone
>> him. Do you have any idea how long he will be hospitalized?
>>
>> Thanks - Jim, A-283, Punta Gorda, FL
>>
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
>>
>> >
>> > All
>> >
>> > I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last
>> Friday 22. August.
>> > It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the
>> hospital Wells city.
>> > I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
>> >
>> > Soon after take off from the Well=B4s airport he adjusted his new
>> prop for cruise
>> > settings.
>> > Suddenly it feathered or even reversed.
>> > He made immediately forced landing, managed to avoid power lines
>> but hit one
>> > tree.
>> > He was able to escape from the wreck just before it catched fire.
>> > He suffers serious injuries but will survive.
>> >
>> > Jos stated strongly there is not hing f opa-Li
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2008
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Mono vs. Tri-gear
Erich, please don't take my story as disparaging the mono. I just
didn't want the handling I experienced in the plane I took the ride in.
The mono is a fine aircraft for those who want a tail dragger. I just
prefer the trike. Different strokes and all... :)
Jeff
Erich Trombley wrote:
> OOPS. I hit the send key instead of spell check.
>
> Jeff, wrote,
>
> "I took a ride with John Hurst, who only had a mono to demonstrate.
> After watching an
> experienced pilot, like John, handle the mono on concrete, I quickly
> made the decision to go Tri-gear. I've never regretted that decision."
>
> Jeff, I am happy for you that you chose the join the Europa community
> with Baby Blue. The Europa is a great plane; mono or Tri-gear. I only
> wish that the mono wasn't disparaged in the process of making a case for
> the Tri-gear. As a mono pilot who has only flow his plane off of hard
> surfaces (asphalt or concrete) for the last 500 hours I do realize that
> different skills are necessary to handle the mono. I also recognize the
> fact that these skill can be learned with the aid of competent flight
> instruction. I had zero tailwheel time when I transitioned into the
> Europa. With a couple of hours (literally two hours) of training by Bob
> Lindsay, my flight instructor transitioned into the Europa. Of
> course has many hundred of hours of tailwheel time and did not find the
> Europa difficult to handle. He did note that it was different than
> other tailwheel aircraft that he had flown. My flight instructor then
> set out to transition train my in my Europa. With the requisite 10
> hours of dual complete I received my tailwheel endorsement and haven't
> looked back.
>
> The mono is a great plane. I do have to use my feet from the moment I
> start the plane until the moment I shut it down. I have happy dancing
> feet. This is not a bad thing, it is just what is required. Like any
> tailwheel aircraft you have to keep the thing going straight.
> Sloppy ground handling is not tolerated. I find the mono a joy to fly,
> all aspects of it.
>
> In closing, I am happy for any one to join the Europa family with either
> a mono or a Tri-gear. Please do not disparage the mono to make a case
> for the Tri-gear. Remember there are a lot of mono pilots out their
> that love their Europa as-is and have no intention of changing the
> configuration of their bird.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Erich Trombley
> N28ET Classic Mono 914
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Click here to find the satellite television package that meets your
> needs.
> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2132/fc/Ioyw6iifPTvIzkd8NTUhdE0UlCwXZ0s3SpWnvr3uV2flHbOsTC4Otx/>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2008
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Europa Accident in Austria
Raimo
I am very sad to hear your news about Jos. If you speak to him before I
do please give him my best wishes. Please publish the hospital address.
When I was in hospital the "get well" cards around my bed from all over
the world gave me a real lift.
Graham
Raimo Toivio wrote:
>
> All
>
> I sadly report Europa accident in Austria which happened last Friday 22. August.
> It was Jos Okhuissen with his Europa OH-XJO. Jos is in the hospital Wells city.
> I spoke with him today and this is what he told:
> Raimo Toivio, Finland
> OH-XRT
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 26, 2008
Dave=2C
I know=2C that a given Europa will weigh more with the trigear=2C but all E
uropas differ greatly in overall weight=2C depending on equipment and optio
ns=2C the original Classics being the lightest.
Karl
Date: Mon=2C 25 Aug 2008 21:35:12 +0200From: wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com
what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear=2C what to choose...further question..
The combination spring / bungee approach sounds like a great solution. Ca
n't agree about the weight though. Our group converted out mono to a trike
=2C adding 23 pounds / 10kg. A Hoffmann C/S prop added another 5 kg ( over
a warp drive).
Dave
On 25/08/2008=2C Karl Heindl wrote:
Kevin=2C The springs didn't work for me. My bungee had been mounted for abo
ut 7 years (never gave any trouble) it seemed an excellent idea to switch t
o the springs.It really dpends which fields you are operating from. I am ba
sed at a fairly bumpy grass field=2C and the springs turn the aircraft into
a bucking bronco. Especially on landing=2C unless you push the stick forwa
rd=2Cthe nose can oscillate to the point where control could be lost by an
inexperienced pilot.A bungee is far better for absorbing shock and much mor
e forgiving.So I recently changed back=2C but had a problem with getting th
e bungee as tight as I had before=2C and I now have what to me is the ideal
solution: a spring on one side and a bungee on the other side=2C plus the
safety cable. I should mention one incident with the new bungee=2C where th
e safety cable cut through two strands of the bungee=2C with the safety cab
le sving me from a prop strike. So now I have all the safety plus the comfo
rt.If you are not operating on rough terrain=2C then you shouldn't have to
worry with the springs. Regarding mono versus trigear=2C someone mentioned
the better cruise performance of the mono. Perhaps there is a small advanta
ge but note that it was a trigear that has flown around the world a couple
of times=2C with very economical fuel consumption and a basic 912. It also
made more 'local' flights from CA to Alaska and the Bahamas.The weight adva
ntage is also theoretical. I noticed that some of the more recent monos cam
e in with a higher weight than my tri. Karl > From
: ksiggery(at)mac.com> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List
: Mono or Tri-Gear=2C what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear=2C what to choose...f
urther question..> Date: Mon=2C 25 Aug 2008 09:17:09 +0100> > --> Europa-Li
st message posted by: Kevin Siggery > > kind of a corolla
ry to the question=3B assuming you then have a tri-gear > (as we do=3B G-RO
OV) what is the opinion of people when considering the > bungee nosewheel s
ystem compared to the spring system? (we have a > bungee but are thinking o
f changing).> ====================
=> _=======================
=> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
From: kbcarpenter(at)comcast.net
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 26, 2008
I'll run this thread a bit longer by adding that I have a mono at 490 hours. I
originally learned to fly in a J 3 cub and Champ...had about 600 hours in tail
draggers when flew the Europa. It was no problem on grass from the first flight.
early landings on hard surface had a few minor swerves, nothing exciting.
I have a glider rating and that helps you focus on keeping it straight as the
wing tips side to side. The mono is what makes the europa unique with a sassy
look that appeals to me. I think the average pilot could handle it with checkout,
especially if having previous taildragger time. The mono is a pain when
you need to pull the wings out for inspection or do retract tests at annual.
I need to tighten the bungee and it is the dickens to get to. If I had it all
to do over, I would opt for the wider body and high top and Bob Berbees' conventional
gear. Been flying a Tiger Moth lately and it is also a real challange
to land, especially in a crosswind. The Europa has given me some good experience.
Ken carpenter N9XS Mono 914
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Dave,
I know, that a given Europa will weigh more with the trigear, but all Europas differ
greatly in overall weight, depending on equipment and options, the original
Classics being the lightest.
Karl
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:35:12 +0200
From: wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
The combination spring / bungee approach sounds like a great solution. Can't
agree about the weight though. Our group converted out mono to a trike, adding
23 pounds / 10kg. A Hoffmann C/S prop added another 5 kg ( over a warp drive).
Dave
On 25/08/2008, Karl Heindl wrote:
Kevin,
The springs didn't work for me. My bungee had been mounted for about 7 years (never
gave any trouble) it seemed an excellent idea to switch to the springs.
It really dpends which fields you are operating from. I am based at a fairly bumpy
grass field, and the springs turn the aircraft into a bucking bronco. Especially
on landing, unless you push the stick forward,
the nose can oscillate to the point where control could be lost by an inexperienced
pilot.
A bungee is far better for absorbing shock and much more forgiving.
So I recently changed back, but had a problem with getting the bungee as tight
as I had before, and I now have what to me is the ideal solution: a spring on
one side and a bungee on the other side, plus the safety cable. I should mention
one incident with the new bungee, where the safety cable cut through two strands
of the bungee, with the safety cable sving me from a prop strike. So now
I have all the safety plus the comfort.
If you are not operating on rough terrain, then you shouldn't have to worry with
the springs.
Regarding mono versus trigear, someone mentioned the better cruise performance
of the mono. Perhaps there is a small advantage but note that it was a trigear
that has flown around the world a couple of times, with very economical fuel
consumption and a basic 912. It also made more 'local' flights from CA to Alaska
and the Bahamas.
The weight advantage is also theoretical. I noticed that some of the more recent
monos came in with a higher weight than my tri.
Karl
> From: ksiggery(at)mac.com
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:17:09 +0100
>
>
> kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear
> (as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the
> bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a
> bungee but are thinking of changing).
>
====================
> _=======================
>
>
>
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I'll run this thread a bit longer by adding that I have a mono at 490 hours.
I originally learned to fly in a J 3 cub and Champ...had about 600 hours
in tail
draggers when flew the Europa. It was no problem on grass from the first
flight. early landings on hard surface had a few minor swerves, nothing
exciting. I have a glider rating and that helps you focus on keeping
it straight as the wing tips side to side. The mono is what makes the europa
unique with a sassy look that appeals to me. I think the average pilot
could handle it with checkout, especially if having previous taildragger
time. The mono is a pain when you need to pull the wings out for inspection
or do retract tests at annual. I need to tighten the bungee and
it is the dickens to get to. If I had it all to do over, I would opt for
the wider body and high top and Bob Berbees' conventional gear. Been
flying a Tiger Moth lately and it is also a real challange to land, especially
in a crosswind. The Europa has given me some good experience.
Ken carpenter N9XS Mono 914
Dave,
I know, that a given Europa will weigh more with the trigear,
but all Europas differ greatly in overall weight, depending on equipment and
options, the original Classics being the lightest.
Karl
<html><div></div></html>
<BR>Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:35:12 +0200<BR>From: wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com<BR>To:
europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose...further question..
The combination spring / bungee approach sounds like a great solution.
Can't agree about the weight though. Our group converted out
mono to a trike, adding 23 pounds / 10kg. A Hoffmann C/S prop added another
5 kg ( over a warp drive).
Dave
On 25/08/2008, Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com> wrote:
Kevin,
The springs didn't work for me. My bungee had been mounted
for about 7 years (never gave any trouble) it seemed an excellent idea to
switch to the springs.
It really dpends which fields you are operating from.
I am based at a fairly bumpy grass field, and the springs turn the aircraft
into a bucking bronco. Especially on landing, unless you push the stick forward,
the
nose can oscillate to the point where control could be lost by an inexperienced
pilot.
A bungee is far better for absorbing shock and much more
forgiving.
So I recently changed back, but had a problem with getting the
bungee as tight as I had before, and I now have what to me is the ideal solution:
a spring on one side and a bungee on the other side, plus the safety cable.
I should mention one incident with the new bungee, where the safety cable cut
through two strands of the bungee, with the safety cable sving me from a prop
strike. So now I have all the safety plus the comf
ort.
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:17:09 +0100
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Kevin Siggery <ksiggery(at)mac.com>
>
> kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear
> (as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the
> bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a
> bungee but are thinking of changing).
>
=====================
> _========================
>
>
>
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2008
Subject: Europa Accident in Austria
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
According to Mr. Google, the complete address for Jos's hospital is:
General Hospital Wels
Grieskirchnerstra=DFe 42,
A-4600, Wels ,Austria
Sigh,
Fred
A194
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2008
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Hi Dave,
I am just curious, was the 23 lbs increase including the fairings ?
Would you by chance have used magnesium wheels ?
Regards,
Paul McAllister
N378PJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 26, 2008
Hi! William/all
I must concur with your statement, I can't keep my nose out any longer !
I built G-PTAG as a convertible since folks advised that to learn I
would need the "TRAINER Wheel" in the first instance and after 600
hours+ I am content to leave it in that configuration. Although anyone
who would prefer the mono rig will have it all available when the a/c is
up for sale. I have just flown all over Europe alongside and behind
Ivor Phillips' G-IVER and at distance you don't see the legs in the
flight profile. At Mariehamn (Finland) we were confronted with 90 deg
cross winds gusting 25-28kts with tree rotor effect making me wonder why
I was there until I realized Ivor was behind in his new ship on
comparatively low hours. We both handled it OK because the trike has
differential braking to assist the rudder with direction control. On
departure from the same airfield I heard the tower call gusting 35 kts.
This is not a boast just facts towards the debate. I have witnessed too
many mono ground loops for me to ever consider myself competent on mono
wheels, why risk your hard earned savings ?
No offence to the many happy and very competent mono fliers.
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Daniell
Sent: 25 August 2008 21:23
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or
Tri-Gear, what to choose...further question..
My 5c worth
I went through this dilemma when buying and although the mono looks so
much sexier went for tri gear because it thought a mono would be
difficult to sell if it ever came to it.
Will
Checked by AVG.
23-Aug-08 13:16
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Wishes from Jos
Date: Aug 26, 2008
All
Our brave pilot from Wels hospital Austria called me few seconds ago.
He beg me to tell wishes from him to all of you.
He has got about hundred SMS full of warm hugs with speedy recovery wishes etc.
He said he is happy without his plane because it is much easier to fly now.
He is going to fly round the ball using our Europas P2 seats.
Lets make it happen.
He also said that he is happy it was not just an ordinary car accident.
In that case he would be alone now but after plane accident he has noticed he has
so many good friends.
It was hard to see me pics where flames eat OH-registered plane but he said "no
problem - it was well insuranced"!
Regards, Raimo
OH-XRT
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "rick" <rick(at)amimotormanagement.co.uk>
Subject: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear, what
to choose...further question..
Date: Aug 26, 2008
Hi Guys
Don't forget the pre looped single bungees made up from the original bungee
cord! You put on as many as you like depending on the tension you require.
If it's too loose put another on. Easy peasy.
My system has been on for 200 hours or so with absolutely no problems at the
bumpiest, short (300m) strip in the universe.
Rick Morris
Tri G-RIKS
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Buckley
Sent: 25 August 2008 20:35
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or Tri-Gear,
what to choose...further question..
The combination spring / bungee approach sounds like a great solution.
Can't agree about the weight though. Our group converted out mono to a
trike, adding 23 pounds / 10kg. A Hoffmann C/S prop added another 5 kg (
over a warp drive).
Dave
On 25/08/2008, Karl Heindl wrote:
Kevin,
The springs didn't work for me. My bungee had been mounted for about 7 years
(never gave any trouble) it seemed an excellent idea to switch to the
springs.
It really dpends which fields you are operating from. I am based at a fairly
bumpy grass field, and the springs turn the aircraft into a bucking bronco.
Especially on landing, unless you push the stick forward,
the nose can oscillate to the point where control could be lost by an
inexperienced pilot.
A bungee is far better for absorbing shock and much more forgiving.
So I recently changed back, but had a problem with getting the bungee as
tight as I had before, and I now have what to me is the ideal solution: a
spring on one side and a bungee on the other side, plus the safety cable. I
should mention one incident with the new bungee, where the safety cable cut
through two strands of the bungee, with the safety cable sving me from a
prop strike. So now I have all the safety plus the comfort.
If you are not operating on rough terrain, then you shouldn't have to worry
with the springs.
Regarding mono versus trigear, someone mentioned the better cruise
performance of the mono. Perhaps there is a small advantage but note that it
was a trigear that has flown around the world a couple of times, with very
economical fuel consumption and a basic 912. It also made more 'local'
flights from CA to Alaska and the Bahamas.
The weight advantage is also theoretical. I noticed that some of the more
recent monos came in with a higher weight than my tri.
Karl
> From: HYPERLINK "mailto:ksiggery(at)mac.com" \nksiggery(at)mac.com
> To: HYPERLINK "mailto:europa-list(at)matronics.com"
\neuropa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono or Tri-Gear, what to choose?Mono or
Tri-Gear, what to choose...further question..
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:17:09 +0100
>
"mailto:ksiggery(at)mac.com" \nksiggery(at)mac.com>
>
> kind of a corollary to the question; assuming you then have a tri-gear
> (as we do; G-ROOV) what is the opinion of people when considering the
> bungee nosewheel system compared to the spring system? (we have a
> bungee but are thinking of changing).
>
====================
> _=======================
>
>
>
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG.
07:05
Checked by AVG.
07:29
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hans Siedsma" <H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net>
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 26, 2008
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Verzonden: zaterdag 23 augustus 2008 23:32
Aan: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
I just received the Airworthiness Directive AD 2008-0158 \date 21 Aug. according
the S transponders Filser Type TRT 600 and TRT 800. Does not look to good.
At least do not operate the aircraft in airspace where a transponder is required
etc.....
Hans
Europa-List message posted by: "nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk"
Thanks for all the inputs on transponder selection. I was surprised to
hear that it was possible to fit the Garmin 328as it is significantly
longer than a Garmin/Apollo SL40 radio which only just fits. I guess
the extra length must all be in the connector.
Having trawled the net for more info I have come to a similar
conclusion to Rowland. The points which I found to be significant were
as follows:
1. The Garmin 328 is a tight fit and is by far the heaviest and is
more limited in its capabilities
2. The Trig and the Filser are both much lighter with the Filser
including the encoder which saves even more weight and is simpler to
connect up.
3. The Filser is the cheapest of those available that fit in the
normal avionics stack.
4. The Filser offers a flip/flop type code selection like most radios.
5. The Garmin is the only one to offer dedicated number buttons for
entering codes. We use this way of inputting codes in our airliner
transponders and it is by far the easiest.
6. The power output is a little confusing. Most of them offer 250W
output from the set with an estimated 125W at the antenna. Some
manufacturers quote set power and others antenna power.
7. The Becker is significantly more expensive than the rest and seems
to offer no advantages to justify the extra price.
>From the above, on balance the Filser seems to be the most suitable
for my requirements.
Regards
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-
server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Remi Guerner
Sent: 23 August 2008 19:29
Subject: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
Hi Nigel,
I have replaced my GTX320 by a 328. In spite of being deeper, the 328
fits perfectly in the same place as the 320. Same panel cut out, too.
However, a 90 degree elbow antenna connector is required. Same panel
cut out, too.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL
options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice
would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on
the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack
on
the Europa
How safe is your email? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail
__________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 26, 2008
Hi Hans
I am looking at purchasing the Filser transponder. Please can you
explain further or give me a link for the information.
Regards
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans
Siedsma
Sent: 26 August 2008 16:26
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens
nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Verzonden: zaterdag 23 augustus 2008 23:32
Aan: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
I just received the Airworthiness Directive AD 2008-0158 \date 21 Aug.
according the S transponders Filser Type TRT 600 and TRT 800. Does not
look to good. At least do not operate the aircraft in airspace where a
transponder is required etc.....
Hans
Europa-List message posted by: "nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk"
Thanks for all the inputs on transponder selection. I was surprised to
hear that it was possible to fit the Garmin 328as it is significantly
longer than a Garmin/Apollo SL40 radio which only just fits. I guess
the extra length must all be in the connector.
Having trawled the net for more info I have come to a similar
conclusion to Rowland. The points which I found to be significant were
as follows:
1. The Garmin 328 is a tight fit and is by far the heaviest and is
more limited in its capabilities
2. The Trig and the Filser are both much lighter with the Filser
including the encoder which saves even more weight and is simpler to
connect up.
3. The Filser is the cheapest of those available that fit in the
normal avionics stack.
4. The Filser offers a flip/flop type code selection like most
radios.
5. The Garmin is the only one to offer dedicated number buttons for
entering codes. We use this way of inputting codes in our airliner
transponders and it is by far the easiest.
6. The power output is a little confusing. Most of them offer 250W
output from the set with an estimated 125W at the antenna. Some
manufacturers quote set power and others antenna power.
7. The Becker is significantly more expensive than the rest and
seems
to offer no advantages to justify the extra price.
>From the above, on balance the Filser seems to be the most suitable
for my requirements.
Regards
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-
server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Remi Guerner
Sent: 23 August 2008 19:29
Subject: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
Hi Nigel,
I have replaced my GTX320 by a 328. In spite of being deeper, the 328
fits perfectly in the same place as the 320. Same panel cut out, too.
However, a 90 degree elbow antenna connector is required. Same panel
cut out, too.
Regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL
options for replacing my Garmin 320 transponder. The logical choice
would initially appear to be the Garmin 328. However having checked on
the specifications the 328 is too deep for the central avionics stack
on
the Europa
How safe is your email? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail
__________________________________________________________
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
8/25/2008 8:48 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Mode S transponders
nigel charles wrote:
> Hi Hans
>
> I am looking at purchasing the Filser transponder. Please can you
> explain further or give me a link for the information.
I received this AD as well for my Filser equipped Cessna, and it just
means that I'm grounded as transponders are mandatory here (unless you
stay in class G, below 1200ft.)
According to the maintenance guys they have had endless problems with
these transponders. Mine also fails some test (sideband suppression).
After repair/upgrade by Filser these transponders often turn out worse
than they were before the fix. For this reason the avionics company is
going to return all transponders still within the warranty period and
replace them by something else.
I planned to put a Filser in my Europa as well, but I now changed my
mind. Take a look at this one:
http://www.mode-sierra.com/pdf-files/productomschrijving%20VT-01.pdf
Only 750 grams, and the nice part is that you can split the unit into a
small control unit and the main unit. The control unit goes into the
instrument panel, and the main unit in the tail. For the 914/cs-prop
people this gives a better weight distribution, and, more importantly,
this means that you can connect the antenna directly to the unit. No
more heavy cables, cable losses, etc.
For the rest it has about the same features as the Filser, and the price
is also about the same.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "nigel charles" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 26, 2008
Hi Frans
Thanks for the info. As I require a rack mounted unit I will have a look
at the VT-02 version of the Mode Sierra transponder.
Regards
Nigel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans
Veldman
Sent: 26 August 2008 17:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
nigel charles wrote:
> Hi Hans
>
> I am looking at purchasing the Filser transponder. Please can you
> explain further or give me a link for the information.
I received this AD as well for my Filser equipped Cessna, and it just
means that I'm grounded as transponders are mandatory here (unless you
stay in class G, below 1200ft.)
According to the maintenance guys they have had endless problems with
these transponders. Mine also fails some test (sideband suppression).
After repair/upgrade by Filser these transponders often turn out worse
than they were before the fix. For this reason the avionics company is
going to return all transponders still within the warranty period and
replace them by something else.
I planned to put a Filser in my Europa as well, but I now changed my
mind. Take a look at this one:
http://www.mode-sierra.com/pdf-files/productomschrijving%20VT-01.pdf
Only 750 grams, and the nice part is that you can split the unit into a
small control unit and the main unit. The control unit goes into the
instrument panel, and the main unit in the tail. For the 914/cs-prop
people this gives a better weight distribution, and, more importantly,
this means that you can connect the antenna directly to the unit. No
more heavy cables, cable losses, etc.
For the rest it has about the same features as the Filser, and the price
is also about the same.
Frans
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
8/26/2008 7:29 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa Accident in Austria
From: "steve v " <s(at)vestuti.orangehome.co.uk>
Date: Aug 26, 2008
Very sad news, i hope Jos makes a speedy recovery and wish him all the very best,
steve.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Mode S transponders
Date: Aug 26, 2008
From: "Gary Leinberger" <Gary.Leinberger(at)millersville.edu>
Are these transponders legal in the U.S.?
Gary Leinberger
A237
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans
Veldman
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mode S transponders
-->
nigel charles wrote:
> Hi Hans
>
> I am looking at purchasing the Filser transponder. Please can you
> explain further or give me a link for the information.
I received this AD as well for my Filser equipped Cessna, and it just
means that I'm grounded as transponders are mandatory here (unless you
stay in class G, below 1200ft.)
According to the maintenance guys they have had endless problems with
these transponders. Mine also fails some test (sideband suppression).
After repair/upgrade by Filser these transponders often turn out worse
than they were before the fix. For this reason the avionics company is
going to return all transponders still within the warranty period and
replace them by something else.
I planned to put a Filser in my Europa as well, but I now changed my
mind. Take a look at this one:
http://www.mode-sierra.com/pdf-files/productomschrijving%20VT-01.pdf
Only 750 grams, and the nice part is that you can split the unit into a
small control unit and the main unit. The control unit goes into the
instrument panel, and the main unit in the tail. For the 914/cs-prop
people this gives a better weight distribution, and, more importantly,
this means that you can connect the antenna directly to the unit. No
more heavy cables, cable losses, etc.
For the rest it has about the same features as the Filser, and the price
is also about the same.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Torque Tube Clamp
From: "steve v " <s(at)vestuti.orangehome.co.uk>
Date: Aug 27, 2008
hi Pat,
have you done away with the four pins or are they obscured by the clamps?
steve #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Mode S transponders
Gary Leinberger wrote:
>
> Are these transponders legal in the U.S.
I don't know, but here in the Netherlands mode S is mandatory. BTW, If
anyone is interested in my old King mode C transponder just let me know.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Troy Maynor <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
Subject: EGT Probes
Date: Aug 27, 2008
The Rotax manual specifies 2.75" from the flange to the mount point of the EGT
probes. Is it a coincidence this centers right on the thick band part of the pipes
where they are welded together or are these thicker parts for drilling and
tapping? I have the kind that mount with clamps.
Troy Maynor
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EGT Probes
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 27, 2008
Troy,
My old and new exhausts both have uniform diameter and thickness
from the block flange to the ball joint. The only care was in siting
the weld-on bung so that the probe, sticking out 4 inches or so
do not obstruct access to the flange nuts or fitting the cowl back on.
In my new exhaust system, I have EGTs on all 4 cylinders.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0959#200959
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Magneto/Ign. mod. Failure
From: "steve v " <s(at)vestuti.orangehome.co.uk>
Date: Aug 28, 2008
hi,
a freind of mine with a new 912S on its first hour of flight has had a
magneto / ignition module failure, it is the lower of the two labeled
module "B", i have lent him mine so that he can complete the test flying
of the zenair, as the motor is about 2 years old, rotax will not
honor the warranty, anyone come across this and is it common?
i will be taking a hacksaw and avo to the module should he
not get anywhere with Rotax,
steve #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Magneto/Ign. mod. Failure
Date: Aug 27, 2008
From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com>
Hi Steve,
Before hacking up a module just make sure you don't have intermittent
wires to the module. On both our plane (912S) and another 912S that we
know of there were wires broken at the connectors but held in contact by
the insulation (most of the time).
We could not find the break with a volt meter, but just ran the engine
with the cowl off and had someone wiggle/pull on the wires one at a time
to see if it effected the engine operation (please stay clear of the
prop).
Just a thought,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve v
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:29 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Magneto/Ign. mod. Failure
-->
hi,
a freind of mine with a new 912S on its first hour of flight has had a
magneto / ignition module failure, it is the lower of the two labeled
module "B", i have lent him mine so that he can complete the test flying
of the zenair, as the motor is about 2 years old, rotax will not honor
the warranty, anyone come across this and is it common?
i will be taking a hacksaw and avo to the module should he not get
anywhere with Rotax,
steve #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Europa Club AGM
Date: Aug 28, 2008
For those who did not get a direct e mail or have forgotten, the Europa Club
AGM will take place at Laddingford airfield at 1400 on Saturday 30 August.
Ivan Shaw will be addressing the AGM and we expect an update on Europa
Aircraft (2004) Ltd. Call 07801 7211 for details and to let them know you
are coming. There will be a BBQ after the AGM.
Regards
Brian Davies
The Europa Club, membership sec.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2008
From: "David Buckley" <wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: EGT Probes
Ira, Troy
I would like to fit a 4 probe EGT to my Europa (912 u/l). What
system/display are you using please? Any comments on it's effectiveness
appreciated.
Thanks
Dave
G-CCGW
On 27/08/2008, rampil wrote:
>
>
> Troy,
>
> My old and new exhausts both have uniform diameter and thickness
> from the block flange to the ball joint. The only care was in siting
> the weld-on bung so that the probe, sticking out 4 inches or so
> do not obstruct access to the flange nuts or fitting the cowl back on.
> In my new exhaust system, I have EGTs on all 4 cylinders.
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0959#200959
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "G-IANI" <g-iani(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Magneto/Ign. mod. Failure
Date: Aug 28, 2008
Terry Clark had similar problems.
He was advised by Skydrive that it was likely to be a broken wire just
inside the box, and tried to find the fault. He accepted that this could
cause the unit to fail completely. No faulty connection could be found and
the unit stopped working completely. The replacement cost over 400
He subsequently found that the other box still had an intermittent fault.
With further use the fault has become repeatable. When COLD the unit will
shut down, when the mag is grounded, but when HOT grounding the mag fails to
shut down the unit.
I and others have had considerable problems trying to find the fault.
During initial engine tests the engine would not shut down on some
occasions. The electrics were supplied and fitted by R.D. Aviation. They
supplied, no less than 3 ignition switches thinking that it could be the
problem. All the wiring was thoroughly checked. It was also impossible to
identify which magneto was at fault as it varied between failures, giving
support to the theory that it was the wiring. Under cowl temperatures have
been checked to ensure that they do not exceed the specified limits.
While, originally, the fault was intermittent it has now become repeatable
with the original module failing to shut down when HOT.
The conclusion is that both modules have been faulty since new (they are
consecutive serial numbers) with the switching transistor junctions failing
at higher temperatures. These modules, at their exceptionally high cost,
are expected to last the lifetime of the engine.
The story above is for information. I am sorry but it does not help solve
the problem. I am convinced these modules, are far less reliable than they
should be. They cost pennies to make and are sold at an insane prices as
high reliability aircraft parts. When they fail we are invariably told it
is the owners fault (too hot, wires allowed to vibrate etc).
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Jos information
Date: Aug 28, 2008
All who cares Jos
Probably he will be moved to Finnish hospital after two weeks.
That place will maybe be The Univercity Hospital in Oulu.
He is hopeful about his eye.
Accident: earlier I wrote his prop was feathered. That was my misunderstanding.
Prop went fine, then superfine and finally to the beta (= zero) angles or even
reversed.
Jos has an interesting theory why it happened but let him tel it by himself.
Between my ears the theory was believable.
And horrible.
Regards, Raimo
OH-XRT
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Jos information
Date: Aug 28, 2008
All who cares Jos
Probably he will be moved to Finnish hospital after two weeks.
That place will maybe be The Univercity Hospital in Oulu.
He is hopeful about his eye.
Accident: earlier I wrote his prop was feathered. That was my misunderstanding.
Prop went fine, then superfine and finally to the beta (= zero) angles or even
reversed.
Jos has an interesting theory why it happened but let him tel it by himself.
Between my ears the theory was believable.
And horrible.
Regards, Raimo
OH-XRT
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2008
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Magneto/Ign. mod. Failure
G-BWON had a very similar fault which was cured by swapping one of the
Ign modules.
Graham
G-IANI wrote:
>
>
> Terry Clark had similar problems.
>
> He was advised by Skydrive that it was likely to be a broken wire just
> inside the box, and tried to find the fault. He accepted that this could
> cause the unit to fail completely. No faulty connection could be found and
> the unit stopped working completely. The replacement cost over 400
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2008
From: "nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk" <nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: EGT Probes
I have a 4 probe EGT system but didnt want to pay for a complicated
engine monitoring display. I used a 4 position rotary switch in
conjunction with a uMonitor system. As the Rotax has no mixture control
the need to make adjustments based on EGT are not required. My main
reason for having 4 probes is to be able to instantly identify which
cylinder is giving a problem should the engine run rough for any reason
(eg rpm drop out of limits on a magneto check). This is easily achieved
with a switch and a single display.
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-
server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Buckley
Sent: 28 August 2008 09:31
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: EGT Probes
Ira, Troy
I would like to fit a 4 probe EGT to my Europa (912 u/l). What
system/display are you using please? Any comments on it's
effectiveness appreciated.
Thanks
Dave
G-CCGW
On 27/08/2008, rampil wrote:
Troy,
My old and new exhausts both have uniform diameter and thickness
from the block flange to the ball joint. The only care was in siting
the weld-on bung so that the probe, sticking out 4 inches or so
do not obstruct access to the flange nuts or fitting the cowl back on.
In my new exhaust system, I have EGTs on all 4 cylinders.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0959#200959
How safe is your email? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail
__________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Europa Club AGM
Date: Aug 28, 2008
For the attention of any pilots intending to fly in to Laddingford on
Saturday for the Europa Club AGM.
Laddingford is situated just outside to the Northeast of Paddock Wood in
Kent. (Make sure you get us to the North of the railway line and not Old
Hay less than 1 mile away to the South of the railway line.
We have 2 runways. 11/29 which is 750 Mtrs long and 03/21 which is 450
Mtrs long. Unless it is blowing a strong wind we shall be using 11/29
All circuits to the North of the field at 1000 ft.
Make calls on Safety Com 135.47.
Take a good look at the runway whilst in the circuit as we do have a
public footpath running across the runway about 100 Mtrs from the
Eastern end and quite a few people use this, especially dog walkers. If
nobody has landed ahead of you for some time, make sure you take an
extra special look.
If landing on 29 taxi to 03 and turn onto that to use the parallel
taxiway to the north of the runway.
If landing on 11 turn on to either of the 2 taxiways adjacent to the
hangars unless you overshoot them in which case continue to the taxiway
almost at the far end of the runway.
No back-tracking (there is no need) in case it gets busy.
Have a safe flight and a good day.
Dave Watts
Laddingford Aerodrome Manager
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Mitchell" <pm(at)tecnam.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa Club AGM
Date: Aug 28, 2008
Brian,
Mary and I would like to come to the fly in/AGM. Dave Bossamsworth
invited us and several other Tecnams to a BBQ I think two years ago and
were made very welcome. Do not feel I should attend the AGM due to my
Tecnam connection.
Will confirm on the phone number.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Davies
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:08 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Club AGM
For those who did not get a direct e mail or have forgotten, the
Europa Club AGM will take place at Laddingford airfield at 1400 on
Saturday 30 August. Ivan Shaw will be addressing the AGM and we expect
an update on Europa Aircraft (2004) Ltd. Call 07801 7211 for details
and to let them know you are coming. There will be a BBQ after the AGM.
Regards
Brian Davies
The Europa Club, membership sec.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
27/08/2008 07:01
________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Jos information
Date: Aug 28, 2008
Raimo-
Thanks for keeping us updated and please continue to do so. We sent a card yesterday
and it should get to Austria OK. Let us have the move date when it is
set up.
Jim Puglise
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
>
> All who cares Jos
>
> Probably he will be moved to Finnish hospital after two weeks.
> That place will maybe be The Univercity Hospital in Oulu.
> He is hopeful about his eye.
>
> Accident: earlier I wrote his prop was feathered. That was my misunderstanding.
> Prop went fine, then superfine and finally to the beta (= zero) angles or even
> reversed.
> Jos has an interesting theory why it happened but let him tel it by himself.
> Between my ears the theory was believable.
> And horrible.
>
> Regards, Raimo
> OH-XRT
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Raimo-
Thanks for keeping us updated and please continue to do so. We sent
a card yesterday and it should get to Austria OK. Let us have the move date
when it is set up.
Jim Puglise
=====
LOCKQU
OTE>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2008
From: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney(at)alltel.net>
Subject: Magneto/Ign. mod. Failure
Hi Steve,
I endorse Terry Seaver's comments regarding possible broken wires at the
multi-pin connectors between the ignition modules and the coils. I had a
mag failure after ~380 hours and found this to be the problem after
talking to Kerry Younk at Lockwood Aviation. The wires break at the
bends just before the tiny cable grommets at the connectors and I
located the breaks by doing a check with needle probes on my continuity
tester. The repair of these was quite awkward and I was happy to let
Lockwood do the work.
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S
Mooresville, North Carolina
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
Subject: Europa-List: Magneto/Ign. mod. Failure
From: "steve v " <s(at)vestuti.orangehome.co.uk>
hi,
a freind of mine with a new 912S on its first hour of flight has had a
magneto / ignition module failure, it is the lower of the two labeled
module "B", i have lent him mine so that he can complete the test flying
of the zenair, as the motor is about 2 years old, rotax will not honor
the warranty, anyone come across this and is it common? i will be taking
a hacksaw and avo to the module should he not get anywhere with Rotax,
steve #573
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "rick" <rick(at)amimotormanagement.co.uk>
Subject: North Weald Fly In
Date: Aug 28, 2008
The RV crowd are holding a Fly in at North Weald this weekend with 70 + RV's
already booked to arrive. If anyone fancies joining our fellow build
travellers then I' sure they will give you a warm welcome as they have me
whenever I pitched up at an RV gathering in my Europa whilst building my RV.
PPR North Weald and read the book before setting off but don't mention the
price of Avgas to anyone! If anyone is there for the Saturday evening
barbecue Dave Broom will buy you a drink.
With Paddy away in the sun it might be an interesting DOTH! I'll be there
on Saturday most of the day.
Rick Morris
G-RIKS XS Tri Gear
D-RMRV RV7A
Can't bear to sell either as both are brilliant in their own ways.
Rick
Checked by AVG.
07:39
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Magneto/Ign. mod. Failure
From: "steve v " <s(at)vestuti.orangehome.co.uk>
Date: Aug 29, 2008
Thanks for all the feedback ,
it is now known for certain that ignition module b
is faulty not producing any spark whatsoever,
wiring checked & ok - even under load,
i will post back in a week or two with the results
of the post mortum of ign. mod B should the ear bashing
that rotax are getting over this premature failure not
result in a satisfactory outcome under warranty,
steve #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2008
From: N55XS <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: It's on!
Hi all,
Paul and I have been in contact and have decided that, despite the
ominous predictions of fowl weather, the second annual USA Europa Fly-in
is still on. We've spoken to others, who plan to attend and it would
seem that fly, drive, or walk, lots of folks plan to attend.
Due to technical problems with Baby Blue, she may not make the trip, but
Mary and I will be there, regardless. Hope to see everyone next weekend...
Jeff - Baby Blue...
--
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2008
Subject: Re: It's on!
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Count me in...
Fred
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net>
Subject: Re: It's on!
Date: Aug 29, 2008
Jeff & All,
I will be there hopefully with Gold Rush but I'm keep an eye on the
gulf storm. Can anyone tell me why we built the few refineries we do
have in hurricane alley? Never mind.... I will be there drive or fly!
My wife may not be able to come as she's watching over 11 4 week old
Golden Doodle puppies. For you dog lovers... go to
www.goldendoodledrive.com
Looking forward to the fly in!
Regards,
Jeff R.
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 145 hours and climbing slowly.
On Aug 28, 2008, at 8:48 PM, N55XS wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Paul and I have been in contact and have decided that, despite the
> ominous predictions of fowl weather, the second annual USA Europa
> Fly-in is still on. We've spoken to others, who plan to attend and it
> would seem that fly, drive, or walk, lots of folks plan to attend.
>
> Due to technical problems with Baby Blue, she may not make the trip,
> but Mary and I will be there, regardless. Hope to see everyone next
> weekend...
>
> Jeff - Baby Blue...
>
>
> --
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Jos Okhuisen
Date: Aug 29, 2008
Just back from Wels in Austria where Bruce Morris, Mark Burton and I spent a
fair bit of time with Jos following his recent accident. He is in reasonable
spirits and making good progress medically. He looks like a boxer who picked
the wrong opponent, but is marvellously cheerful and positive to talk to,
and there seems real hope that his eye will recover. His burnt areas that
have been grafted with artificial skin are healing well.
We saw the wreckage of the plane and it appeared that the
propeller was in zero pitch or possibly negative. This fits with Jos's
description of events, that he climbed normally to 800ft, changed to cruise
mode, realised he had that set at too low rpm and decreased pitch to bring
rpm up to 5000 but then the engine speed rose above 6000 and he lost thrust,
and all attempts to change pitch then made no difference. The land ahead
area was heavily built up and he did a great job to get down more or less in
one piece. He initially aimed for a road but saw a power cable at the last
moment and swerved to land in a tree. The plane then fell out of the tree
and in short time caught fire, but he had not lost consciousness (he says it
is because Laplanders have thick heads!), and was able to get out pretty
quickly, suffering burns to just his lower legs, and trauma around his right
eye (?due to a branch)
His address for those who want to send best wishes is:
Klinicum Wels, Traumatology, 1st Floor
Grieskirchener Strasse 42
4600 Wels, Austria
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Ernest has it......
Date: Aug 29, 2008
For part of Cristley's email he wrote:
"One more advantage with the LED is that you can put one anywhere you can
drill a 3/16" hole, and even direct the light by angling the hole
properly. The standard 5mm LED is a push fit into a 3/16" hole. Then
you just need a small amount of room on the backside for hookup wires.
If the mounting surface is thick enough and you're careful, you can use
a #30 bit for the last 1/16" of the hole. Then you don't even need a
bevel. You wind up with a nearly hidden indicator or spot illuminator.
The push fit will keep it in place, but a dollup of shoo-goo is good for
peace-of-mind."
How true (and all the other advantages).....
The homebuilt (like a Europa or whatever) often leaves wee areas
which are dark and hard to enter. In my case I added a bunch of 3/16" holes
in the dark places, use tiny wires from them to the +&- sockets off used
9Vdc
batteries nearby (or easily accessed), and carry a fresh 9Vdc battery. One
battery serves many areas in the field, and lasts a goodly time, thanks to
LEDs.
Of course, one needs to plan the applicable resistances for each
application.
Saves on extra weight too.
Ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "A B Milne" <milneab(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Last of the Summer wine
Date: Aug 30, 2008
Dear Bryan,
I haven't been neglecting you, just collecting more airfields on the
Black Sea trip. Got back yestereday with a very poor Channel crossing.
I hope Wednesday's will be better and that we can catch up in Rouen.
Lokking forward to the trip and the company,
Yours,
Alasdair
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Allsop
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:17 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Last of the Summer wine
Hi All,
I have had surprisingly few communications, so I am guessing the
everyone is happily looking forward to next Wednesday.
I have to remind everyone of the following.
It must be clearly understood that each and every pilot is responsible
for the safety of their own safety, and that of their passengers and
aeroplanes. Should there any misfortunes neither I, nor the Europa Club
can accept any responsibility.
On behalf of the Club I have suggested a rendezvous to meet up. For
anyone wishing to join me it their own responsibility to make proper
judgements on the advisability of doing so, and how to do it. Subsequent
rendezvous on the trip will be discussed on a daily basis, but it will
be up to each pilot and crew to decide what they want to do.
If it is half as nice as it was last year I know we are going to have
a nice time.
Please acknowledge this e-mail simply by pressing your "reply" button.
Regards to all. Bryan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be=97learn how to burn a DVD
with Windows=AE. Make your smash hit
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karel Vranken <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Last of the Summer wine
Date: Aug 30, 2008
Dear Alasdair=2C
It is good to read that you returned home safely. Thursday at 14h40 I lande
d at my home base after a 3hours and 54' leg from Sankt Johann. I did it mo
stly on top with a slope from 3.6oo feet until 1.000 feet guided by militar
y radar. There were 12 liters of fuel left. This message is also for the ot
her Black Sea Trip participants with many thanks for their great company an
d friendship.
Best regards=2C
Karel Vranken.
From: milneab(at)btinternet.comTo: europa-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Europ
a-List: Last of the Summer wineDate: Sat=2C 30 Aug 2008 07:29:20 +0100
Dear Bryan=2C
I haven't been neglecting you=2C just collecting more airfields on the Blac
k Sea trip. Got back yestereday with a very poor Channel crossing. I hope
Wednesday's will be better and that we can catch up in Rouen.
Lokking forward to the trip and the company=2C
Yours=2C
Alasdair
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Allsop
Sent: Monday=2C August 25=2C 2008 10:17 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Last of the Summer wine
Hi All=2C I have had surprisingly few communications=2C so I am guessing th
e everyone is happily looking forward to next Wednesday. I have to remind e
veryone of the following. It must be clearly understood that each and every
pilot is responsible for the safety of their own safety=2C and that of the
ir passengers and aeroplanes. Should there any misfortunes neither I=2C nor
the Europa Club can accept any responsibility. On behalf of the Club I ha
ve suggested a rendezvous to meet up. For anyone wishing to join me it thei
r own responsibility to make proper judgements on the advisability of doing
so=2C and how to do it. Subsequent rendezvous on the trip will be discusse
d on a daily basis=2C but it will be up to each pilot and crew to decide wh
at they want to do. If it is half as nice as it was last year I know we ar
e going to have a nice time. Please acknowledge this e-mail simply by press
ing your "reply" button. Regards to all. Bryan
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be=97learn how to burn a DVD with Win
dows=AE. Make your smash hit
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Free fuel
Date: Aug 30, 2008
See:
http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2008/080825asi.html
Now I didn't know that! But had been unwittingly practising that speed
for a number of years. But then there is also the issue of hourly
running cost in addtion to fuel cost to consider.
Duncan McF.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: North Weald Fly In
Date: Aug 31, 2008
=======AVGMAIL-48BA47410000=======--
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Corbett" <david.corbett5(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: FW: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 08/30/08
Date: Aug 31, 2008
David,
Very many thanks to you, Marion and Peter for an excellent day yesterday -
your airfield was in superb condition and clearly all your efforts were well
rewarded. I am sorry that I had to get back to EGBS for an evening
appointment, otherwise I would have offered to fly some of your visitors.
Please can you tell us how you managed to arrange the right weather for the
right day - well done and thank you.
I got home to find a bridegromm strapping his bride, in her bridal dress,
into the open cockpit of his Pietenpol Aircamper to fly her to, rather than
away from, their reception. Now that was style!!!
Best wishes to you all,
David
---------------------------
From: "David Watts" <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: North Weald Fly In
No Bob, it should be me that is sorry for our "undulations". I spend an
inordinate amount of time at the aerodrome getting it into the condition
that is, but I obviously need to consider seriously increasing my
effort. (To give you some idea though, Marion and me have been averaging
12 hours a day at the field for the last 5 days getting it all ready for
today).
Luckily the 6 trike Europas and many more monwheels that managed to
attend our event did a sterling job of giving air experience flights to
the many visitors that we had at the field. I did 6 flights myself
during the day and I know that several did more than that. In fact it
was extremely busy at times with a queue at the hold and a good number
in the circuit.
We done and thank you to all those who came and did us proud.
The Europa Club AGM also went well but I am sure that will be reported
elsewhere in more depth.
David Watts
Laddingford Aerodrome Manager.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Laddingford
Date: Aug 31, 2008
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C Richardson" <cjh.richardson(at)virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
Date: Aug 31, 2008
David,
Do you know what type of propellor Jos had fitted to his aircraft? It might
help those with the same propellor to be prepared for a similar situation.
Regards
John.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:33 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
> Just back from Wels in Austria where Bruce Morris, Mark Burton and I spent
> a fair bit of time with Jos following his recent accident. He is in
> reasonable spirits and making good progress medically. He looks like a
> boxer who picked the wrong opponent, but is marvellously cheerful and
> positive to talk to, and there seems real hope that his eye will recover.
> His burnt areas that have been grafted with artificial skin are healing
> well.
> We saw the wreckage of the plane and it appeared that the
> propeller was in zero pitch or possibly negative. This fits with Jos's
> description of events, that he climbed normally to 800ft, changed to
> cruise mode, realised he had that set at too low rpm and decreased pitch
> to bring rpm up to 5000 but then the engine speed rose above 6000 and he
> lost thrust, and all attempts to change pitch then made no difference. The
> land ahead area was heavily built up and he did a great job to get down
> more or less in one piece. He initially aimed for a road but saw a power
> cable at the last moment and swerved to land in a tree. The plane then
> fell out of the tree and in short time caught fire, but he had not lost
> consciousness (he says it is because Laplanders have thick heads!), and
> was able to get out pretty quickly, suffering burns to just his lower
> legs, and trauma around his right eye (?due to a branch)
> His address for those who want to send best wishes is:
> Klinicum Wels, Traumatology, 1st Floor
> Grieskirchener Strasse 42
> 4600 Wels, Austria
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2008
From: Rman <topglock(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Rough River
Hi, gang,
At present, Mary and I are battening down the hatches for Gustov. Hope
this thing comes and goes, quickly. Don't know if we'll have power by
tomorrow, this time, but will stay in touch as long as possible. Still
planning on driving to Rough River. See you all Friday evening...
Jeff - Baby Blue
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Aug 31, 2008
Hi John, Just a short reply. Tomorrow the internet here should be repaired then
more. It was a Woodcomp RS 3000 with reverse. Regards Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Jos_Okhuisen?
Date: Aug 31, 2008
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
http://www.europaowners.org/modules/gallery/album206/Ivan_ja_Jos_4
http://www.europaowners.org/modules/gallery/Instument-panel/IMG_0001_001
Asssuming it is the same as the one initially installed, the prop is a
Wooscomp SR3000 with a Smart Avionics controller with a reverse pitch
switch.
We are about to install the same (minus reverse or feathering option).
Checking through the prop and controller manual it would seem that correctly
installed it is virtually impossible for the blades to go outside the normal
operating range (16.2 - 29.2 degrees) . The blades have cams and
microswitches that cut off the current if the limits are exceeded and there
is a second cutoff microswitch which will operate in the unlikely event the
primary switch fails (ie:short circuits). Of course switches can work their
way loose
Im not sure how the reverse pitch option affects the above.
Not sure you can prepare100% for an equipment malfunction - pretty much the
same as an engine failure - fly the aircraft and get it down in one piece
(if you can).
----- Original Message -----
From: "C Richardson" <cjh.richardson(at)virgin.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
>
> David,
> Do you know what type of propellor Jos had fitted to his aircraft? It
> might help those with the same propellor to be prepared for a similar
> situation.
> Regards
> John.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
> To: "Europa list"
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:33 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
>>
>>
>> Just back from Wels in Austria where Bruce Morris, Mark Burton and I
>> spent a fair bit of time with Jos following his recent accident. He is in
>> reasonable spirits and making good progress medically. He looks like a
>> boxer who picked the wrong opponent, but is marvellously cheerful and
>> positive to talk to, and there seems real hope that his eye will recover.
>> His burnt areas that have been grafted with artificial skin are healing
>> well.
>> We saw the wreckage of the plane and it appeared that the
>> propeller was in zero pitch or possibly negative. This fits with Jos's
>> description of events, that he climbed normally to 800ft, changed to
>> cruise mode, realised he had that set at too low rpm and decreased pitch
>> to bring rpm up to 5000 but then the engine speed rose above 6000 and he
>> lost thrust, and all attempts to change pitch then made no difference.
>> The land ahead area was heavily built up and he did a great job to get
>> down more or less in one piece. He initially aimed for a road but saw a
>> power cable at the last moment and swerved to land in a tree. The plane
>> then fell out of the tree and in short time caught fire, but he had not
>> lost consciousness (he says it is because Laplanders have thick heads!),
>> and was able to get out pretty quickly, suffering burns to just his lower
>> legs, and trauma around his right eye (?due to a branch)
>> His address for those who want to send best wishes is:
>> Klinicum Wels, Traumatology, 1st Floor
>> Grieskirchener Strasse 42
>> 4600 Wels, Austria
>> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this incoming message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
Date: Aug 31, 2008
John, As Jos has already commented, he had a Woodcomp SR3000 with Smart
Avionics controller, (as did both Mark Burton and I on the same trip). The
difference is that he had an optional reverse option. As a purely personal
view, it appears to me that something went wrong with the wiring of the
reverse system, and I would certainly review the sense of operating a
reversible prop until the authorities have reported on their conclusions. On
the other hand, having spent a lot of time talking to Jos, looking at the
wreckage with the Austrian AAIB guy and discussing things with him, and
talking things over with Mark Burton, Conrad Beale and Andy Draper at the
LAA, I have no qualms about carrying on with my Woodcomp SR3000 and Smart
Avionics controller. Regards, David
----- Original Message -----
From: "C Richardson" <cjh.richardson(at)virgin.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
> David,
> Do you know what type of propellor Jos had fitted to his aircraft? It
> might help those with the same propellor to be prepared for a similar
> situation.
> Regards
> John.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
> To: "Europa list"
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:33 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
>>
>>
>> Just back from Wels in Austria where Bruce Morris, Mark Burton and I
>> spent a fair bit of time with Jos following his recent accident. He is in
>> reasonable spirits and making good progress medically. He looks like a
>> boxer who picked the wrong opponent, but is marvellously cheerful and
>> positive to talk to, and there seems real hope that his eye will recover.
>> His burnt areas that have been grafted with artificial skin are healing
>> well.
>> We saw the wreckage of the plane and it appeared that the
>> propeller was in zero pitch or possibly negative. This fits with Jos's
>> description of events, that he climbed normally to 800ft, changed to
>> cruise mode, realised he had that set at too low rpm and decreased pitch
>> to bring rpm up to 5000 but then the engine speed rose above 6000 and he
>> lost thrust, and all attempts to change pitch then made no difference.
>> The land ahead area was heavily built up and he did a great job to get
>> down more or less in one piece. He initially aimed for a road but saw a
>> power cable at the last moment and swerved to land in a tree. The plane
>> then fell out of the tree and in short time caught fire, but he had not
>> lost consciousness (he says it is because Laplanders have thick heads!),
>> and was able to get out pretty quickly, suffering burns to just his lower
>> legs, and trauma around his right eye (?due to a branch)
>> His address for those who want to send best wishes is:
>> Klinicum Wels, Traumatology, 1st Floor
>> Grieskirchener Strasse 42
>> 4600 Wels, Austria
>> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2008
Subject: Rough River
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
RR gang,
Since I have a non-refundable airline ticket to Louisville, I'll be
there irrespective of the weather (well, that may be a stretch). I do
hope that somebody is flying in in their baby since I've shipped ahead
a set of wing root fairings for show and tell.
I see Gustav's track curving westward, away from KY.
Fred
A194
On Sunday, Aug 31, 2008, at 09:48 US/Pacific, Rman wrote:
>
> Hi, gang,
>
> At present, Mary and I are battening down the hatches for Gustov.
> Hope this thing comes and goes, quickly. Don't know if we'll have
> power by tomorrow, this time, but will stay in touch as long as
> possible. Still planning on driving to Rough River. See you all
> Friday evening...
>
> Jeff - Baby Blue
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Test
Date: Sep 01, 2008
Can anyone explain why I am still sending blank messages to the forum?
I am using Outlook Express with AVG free virus checker. The messages are
being sent using plain text and the problem seems to be intermittent (just
like my regulator).
Thanks
Steve Pitt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Test
Date: Sep 01, 2008
Hi! Steve
Whilst I'm not a qualified computer buff I'd suggest a damn spammer has
got hold of your handle and using it. Suggest you do a message to Matt
Dralle at Matronics forum including a copy of the offending e-mail. I'm
sure there is a complaints procedure at the bottom of Europa Forum
mails.
Regards
Bob Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt
Sent: 01 September 2008 08:45
Subject: Europa-List: Test
Can anyone explain why I am still sending blank messages to the forum?
I am using Outlook Express with AVG free virus checker. The messages are
being sent using plain text and the problem seems to be intermittent
(just
like my regulator).
Thanks
Steve Pitt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Jeffers" <pjeffers(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Test
Date: Sep 01, 2008
Hi Steve,
I cannot cast any light on your problem. It is just a pity you did not
include your message on this one since we got it loud and clear.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt
Sent: 01 September 2008 08:45
Subject: Europa-List: Test
Can anyone explain why I am still sending blank messages to the forum?
I am using Outlook Express with AVG free virus checker. The messages are
being sent using plain text and the problem seems to be intermittent (just
like my regulator).
Thanks
Steve Pitt
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
4:59 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Mono swing arm
From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
Date: Sep 01, 2008
Weve got our Europa back together and flown a little. Had a hard arrival yesterday
and noticed today that the M8-100 bolts have threads showing above and below
the shock plates. Looks like the LG06 shock absorber is collapsed.
So how does one disassemble the swing arm mechanism. It appears like the bungee
will have to be taken lose first. How do you get to that with the engine and
firewall in place?
Jim & Heather Butcher
N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1961#201961
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm-systems.fi>
Subject: Re: Mono swing arm
Date: Sep 01, 2008
Jim,
I think your plane is OK (IMHO)!
Once I noticed during normal inspection same situation with my mono and was
very worried.
Investigated little and decided afterwards everything was ok.
During building phase you tightened those bolts M8-100 so,
that the distance between shock plates was 79 mm.
That is maximum - with load it is less.
If you now lift your plane upp (= no load on the gear), you notice the
distance will be again 79 mm.
And no thread showing above and/or below shock plates.
If so, your polyurethane block LG is not collapsed.
Look Europa manual chapter 29M.
I really wish I am right...and you are happy.
Regards, Raimo
OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Mono swing arm
We?Tve got our Europa back together and flown a little. Had a hard arrival
yesterday and noticed today that the M8-100 bolts have threads showing above
and below the shock plates. Looks like the LG06 shock absorber is
collapsed.
So how does one disassemble the swing arm mechanism. It appears like the
bungee will have to be taken lose first. How do you get to that with the
engine and firewall in place?
Jim & Heather Butcher
N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1961#201961
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Mono_swing_arm?
Date: Sep 01, 2008
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
When the Europa is sitting on the ground the rubber block is compressed such
that there is about 1/2 to 1 cm of bolt showing (from the bottom of the
shock plate to the bolt head). That is normal for all Europas. Do not
attempt to take up this slack by tightening the bolts - if you do the
undercarriage will not retract fully.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm-systems.fi>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono swing arm
>
> <raimo.toivio@rwm-systems.fi>
>
> Jim,
>
> I think your plane is OK (IMHO)!
>
> Once I noticed during normal inspection same situation with my mono and
> was very worried.
> Investigated little and decided afterwards everything was ok.
>
> During building phase you tightened those bolts M8-100 so,
> that the distance between shock plates was 79 mm.
> That is maximum - with load it is less.
> If you now lift your plane upp (= no load on the gear), you notice the
> distance will be again 79 mm.
> And no thread showing above and/or below shock plates.
> If so, your polyurethane block LG is not collapsed.
> Look Europa manual chapter 29M.
>
> I really wish I am right...and you are happy.
>
> Regards, Raimo
> OH-XRT
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 6:15 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Mono swing arm
>
>
> We?Tve got our Europa back together and flown a little. Had a hard
> arrival yesterday and noticed today that the M8-100 bolts have threads
> showing above and below the shock plates. Looks like the LG06 shock
> absorber is collapsed.
>
> So how does one disassemble the swing arm mechanism. It appears like the
> bungee will have to be taken lose first. How do you get to that with the
> engine and firewall in place?
>
> Jim & Heather Butcher
> N241BW
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1961#201961
>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this incoming message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mono swing arm
From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
Date: Sep 01, 2008
Raimo & Carl,
Thank you both for your replies! You are right & we are happy :D .
We did a retract test and inspected everything and found no problems.
Jim & Heather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2025#202025
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Mono swing arm
Date: Sep 02, 2008
Heather & Jim
Congratulations!
Mono gear is very strong and cabable (do not ask how I know).
Removing and reassembling it would be a nightmare (for me at least).
Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 12:00 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mono swing arm
>
> Raimo & Carl,
>
> Thank you both for your replies! You are right & we are happy :D .
>
> We did a retract test and inspected everything and found no problems.
>
> Jim & Heather
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2025#202025
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "yannick LAURENS" <yck.laurens(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: refueling trouble on the plane
Date: Sep 02, 2008
After a one hour and a half flight, I tried to refuel the plane, but I
wasn't able to add more than 8 liters. One hour later, I was able to
refuel 16 liters more.
I don't understand the problem, tank air vent looks OK, has anyone
experienced this pb ? how is it possible ?
It's quite worrying as the sight gauge is not reliable...
thank's if you have informations
yannick LAURENS
europa classic
F PSCZ
no 192
based in france
LA BAULE
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: refueling trouble on the plane
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 02, 2008
You don't say how your vents are connected, but if gasoline
enters the sight tube vent at its connection to the filler, and there
there is alocal low spot in the vent tubing, you will get an air lock
at the top of the sight gauge which will make the meniscus in the
sight tube read too low.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2133#202133
________________________________________________________________________________
From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net>
Subject: Re: Rough River
Date: Sep 02, 2008
Fred,
Unless the sky falls I will have N128LJ there for the festivities.
Looking forward to seeing your demo.
Jeff R.
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 149 hours and climbing slowly.
On Aug 31, 2008, at 6:01 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
> RR gang,
>
> Since I have a non-refundable airline ticket to Louisville, I'll be
> there irrespective of the weather (well, that may be a stretch). I do
> hope that somebody is flying in in their baby since I've shipped ahead
> a set of wing root fairings for show and tell.
>
> I see Gustav's track curving westward, away from KY.
>
> Fred
> A194
>
>
> On Sunday, Aug 31, 2008, at 09:48 US/Pacific, Rman wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi, gang,
>>
>> At present, Mary and I are battening down the hatches for Gustov.
>> Hope this thing comes and goes, quickly. Don't know if we'll have
>> power by tomorrow, this time, but will stay in touch as long as
>> possible. Still planning on driving to Rough River. See you all
>> Friday evening...
>>
>> Jeff - Baby Blue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rich & Sandy Schultz" <TheSchultzFamily(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Rough River Camping area?
Date: Sep 02, 2008
Does anyone have campsite numbers? I am looking at going if the weather
works out and need to set up my reservations and wanted to be in the same
area if possible.
Rich Schultz
N262AE
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Autopilot /Trio Avionics - Dynon
Date: Sep 03, 2008
All
I have decided to install autopilot, probably one axis only.
Trio Avionics Ez Pilot looks neat.
Also their customer support seems to be fast and pro, so far.
On the other hand, I have in my panel Dynon D10A.
I know there is a possibility to update it for Dynons autopilot.
That would be much cheaper way but somehow I do not like that idea.
What about users experiences?
Somebody there - do you have any important info?
Thanks, Raimo
OH-XRT
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Autopilot /Trio Avionics - Dynon
Hi Raimo,
> Trio Avionics Ez Pilot looks neat.
> Also their customer support seems to be fast and pro, so far.
>
> What about users experiences?
> Somebody there - do you have any important info?
I also decided to use a Trio Avionic's EZ Pilot. I've built it in, but
I'm not flying yet. Their customer support is great indeed! Installation
is pretty straightforward, I linked the servo to the starboard stick,
and put the servo itself under the left thigh support.
The nice things are that it really communicates very well with the GPS,
and has very nice features, not seen in other auto pilots. The complete
installation is very lightweight.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
Did I miss something, or is there indeed a silence about this subject?
I'm about to install a Woodcomp propellor, but I'm holding this off
until I have some more insight about the reliability of this system.
Also, nobody mentioned it yet, but I'm very interested in the cause of
the post landing fire. It is a horrible prospect that this can happen,
and I want to take all precautions to minimise this risk.
One thing I wonder is how the drain valves affect this risk. They
protude from under the skin, and once you glide through a tree or over a
rough surface, they will probably break off, and the fuel is free to
leak away, possibly inside the cabin if the assembly comes loose, or
otherwise under the airplane, which is not desirable as well.
Also, not having a switch on the main fuel pump (914) and route it not
via the main switch, as the manual recommends, introduces the risk that
the fuel pump pumps the entire tank contents inside the cabin after a
crash. Of course, having a switch on it introduces another risk: an
inadvertently switch off... How do others think about this subject?
BTW, it is no longer possible for me to answer on the Europa list via
the online forum. The mandatory spell-check malfunctions (it mutters
something about a debug mode?). Is there a way to bypass this spell
check or can someone switch it off?
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Mitchell" <pm(at)tecnam.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Autopilot /Trio Avionics - Dynon
Date: Sep 03, 2008
Hi,
I have had both the wing leveller and altitude hold installed in a Tecnam
Sierra connected to an Avmap 4 GPS. I had the standard altitude hold without
auto trim as the Sierra exhibits very little trim change during flight and
so did not go for the auto trim which is available if the aircraft has
electric trim fitted. The EZ 2 allows pre set climb or decent rates as well
and the EZ 3 does that but with the addition of it also levels off at a pre
set height.
Over the winter I have built another Sierra and have installing the new
Trio Pro Pilot which uses the same servos but all incorporated in one head.
This is in fact the wing leveller and EZ3 in one case and is cheaper as a
package than the two separate units to the same spec. This will be connected
to a "Flymap GPS" but the Trio units uses the standard NMEA 0183 signal
link that is common to most GPS. Pre made wiring harnesses are available if
required.
The Trio does what it says on the box and will fly the aircraft better than
you can. As for service, it is superb. I stripped a gear in my first one
through clumsiness on my part while adjusting the clutch and they sent me a
whole new servo by return..
Paul Mitchell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Autopilot /Trio Avionics - Dynon
>
>
> Hi Raimo,
>
>> Trio Avionics Ez Pilot looks neat.
>> Also their customer support seems to be fast and pro, so far.
>>
>> What about users experiences?
>> Somebody there - do you have any important info?
>
> I also decided to use a Trio Avionic's EZ Pilot. I've built it in, but
> I'm not flying yet. Their customer support is great indeed! Installation
> is pretty straightforward, I linked the servo to the starboard stick,
> and put the servo itself under the left thigh support.
> The nice things are that it really communicates very well with the GPS,
> and has very nice features, not seen in other auto pilots. The complete
> installation is very lightweight.
>
> Frans
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
17:29
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: "peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk" <peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Autopilot /Trio Avionics - Dynon
I can vouch for the quality of the customer service from Trio - we
installed the unit but the data string from our GPS wasn't correct - we
shipped the GPS and head back to them and they did a 'special' in the
firmware so that it could understand our data stream - they shipped it
back to us - total cost 0 (or should that be $0).
The only thing that let our installation down was the quality of the
servo - we had the old style Navaids servo - the build quality was very
poor but they have since realised that and replaced it with a servo of
their own design.
Peter
How safe is your email? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail
__________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rough River Camping area?
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: sldpileit(at)aol.com
Rough river state park has camping, and if you want you can camp with your airplane
Looking forward to seeing all this weekend.?
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Scott and Corky,?N108EA?"Miss
Madisyn"????????????????????????????????????????????????
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich & Sandy Schultz <TheSchultzFamily(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:33 pm
Subject: Europa-List: Rough River Camping area?
Does anyone have campsite numbers? I am looking at going if the weather
works out and need to set up my reservations and wanted to be in the same
area if possible.
Rich Schultz
N262AE
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig bastin" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: Off topic- The Tale of The Arab Flight Crew
Date: Sep 03, 2008
This was sent to me by a relative, apparently it was blacked out from the
news in europe etc due to Muslim sensitivity concerns
Subject: The Tale of The Arab Flight Crew
How stupid can you get? Well, this Arab flight crew will
show you. Photos
Show total destruction of a $200 million aircraft, brand
new off the
assembly line.
THE TALE OF THE ARAB FLIGHT CREW
Written by To The Point News
Friday, 16 May 2008
The brand spanking new Airbus 340-600, the largest
passenger airplane ever
built, sat in its hangar inToulouse, France without a
single hour of
airtime. Enter the Arab flight crew of Abu Dhabi Aircraft
Technologies
(ADAT) to conduct pre-delivery tests on the ground, such
as engine runups,
prior to delivery to Etihad Airways in Abu Dhabi .
The ADAT crew taxied the A340-600 to the run-up area. Then
they took all
four engines to takeoff power with a virtually empty
aircraft. Not having
read the run-up manuals, they had no clue just how light
an empty A340-600
really is.
The takeoff warning horn was blaring away in the cockpit
because they had
all 4 engines at full power. The aircraft computers
thought they were trying
to takeoff but it had not been configured properly
(flaps/slats, etc.)
Then one of the ADAT crew decided to pull the circuit
breaker on the Ground
Proximity Sensor to silence the alarm. This fools the
aircraft into
thinking it is in the air. The computers automatically
released all the
brakes and set the aircraft rocketing forward. The ADAT
crew had no idea
that this is a safety feature so that pilots can't land
with the brakes on.
Not one member of the seven-man Arab crew was smart enough
to throttle back
the engines from their max power setting, so the $200
million brand-new
aircraft crashed into a blast barrier, totaling it. The
extent of injuries
to the crew is unknown, for there has been a news blackout
in the major
media in France and elsewhere. Coverage of the story was
deemed insulting
to Moslem Arabs. Finally, the photos are starting to leak
out. Airbus $200
million aircraft meets retaining wall and the wall
wins....
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Sep 03, 2008
Hi Frans and all,
The silence is the normal waiting for the investigation to come to a conclusion.
Today i had a long hearing about the course of events. While i have my theory
about what happened, i will wait until the final findings are published before
commenting. Nethertheless, lets put it this way, my choice will never again
be for a propellor without mechanical endstops, in addition to the electrical
limit switches. As a minimum i would add run to the outer limits and check outside
if the switches are really working and at the right limits. As i found out
the hard way, in the air it might be too late.
As for the fire risk: Difficult to do better then i did. Possibly, if i would have
had one second more time before hitting the trees, i would have followed the
emergengy drill better and switched off power before the crash. That maybe
would have delayed the fire. Now a thick branch wiped the right side of the cockpit
off, breaking the fuel return alu tube. The long range tank (full)survived
the blaze i was told. Even with the wheel retracted, the fuel test points stay
clear. Hmm, best way to prevent fire is not to crash, but i guess you know
that.
Regards,
Jos
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co>
Subject: Jos Okhuisen
Date: Sep 03, 2008
Jos
I am glad to see you on line again.
It is always easy to be wise after the event but each event by its very
nature is something new. We have all learned an important lesson from your
mishap.
Two things strike me:
1. you were remarkably lucky to escape without worse from landing in a tree
2. the fact that it was not worse suggests that the Europa is as safe as it
gets.
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 07:38
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
Hi Frans and all,
The silence is the normal waiting for the investigation to come to a
conclusion. Today i had a long hearing about the course of events. While i
have my theory about what happened, i will wait until the final findings are
published before commenting. Nethertheless, lets put it this way, my choice
will never again be for a propellor without mechanical endstops, in addition
to the electrical limit switches. As a minimum i would add run to the outer
limits and check outside if the switches are really working and at the right
limits. As i found out the hard way, in the air it might be too late.
As for the fire risk: Difficult to do better then i did. Possibly, if i
would have had one second more time before hitting the trees, i would have
followed the emergengy drill better and switched off power before the crash.
That maybe would have delayed the fire. Now a thick branch wiped the right
side of the cockpit off, breaking the fuel return alu tube. The long range
tank (full)survived the blaze i was told. Even with the wheel retracted, the
fuel test points stay clear. Hmm, best way to prevent fire is not to crash,
but i guess you know that.
Regards,
Jos
Checked by AVG.
17:29
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Sep 03, 2008
Hi Will and all,
Before i forget again the most important thing i would like to say: Thank you all
for all the snail- email- sms's and phone calls. I knew this is a great community,
still all those people living these events with me is more then i did
expect. You probably will never know how very important your communications were
for me at the worst moments.
Yes, in my humble, crah tested opinion, the Europa is a safe plane, not only to
fly but also to crash. Still, on more then one account, the accident was not
survivable. I was extremely lucky, and the fact that being born Dutch makes me
a cheese-head might have helped to maintain consiousness and get out before the
fire really started bazing.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsrn
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
Hi Jos and all,
> Hi Frans and all, The silence is the normal waiting for the
> investigation to come to a conclusion.
Ok, I understand that. It is just that a few days ago you wrote that you
were going to post more detailed information the next day, but I never
saw it, so I wondered what happened. Glad that you are still ok.
> Now a thick branch wiped the right side of the cockpit off, breaking
> the fuel return alu tube.
Ok, two toughts about that:
1) The fuel return line is obviously a risk, as it can not be closed
with the fuel valve, and once broken it allows the tank to drain
completely. I just realised that this risk can be minimised by putting a
check-valve (one way valve) in the return line. So fuel can go TO the
tank, but never FROM the tank. Has anyone ever considered this? I think
I'm going to put this into my fuel system, unless someone can tell me
why it is not a good idea to do so.
2) I have seen that many builders do away with the rubber hoses and use
aluminium. Maybe the risk is higher with aluminium, since these tubes
breaks easily, whereas rubber hoses just give way to impacts.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
josok wrote:
> I was extremely lucky, and the fact
> that being born Dutch makes me a cheese-head might have helped to
> maintain consiousness and get out before the fire really started
> bazing.
Well, that you consider being born Dutch made you survive the accident
is really encouraging for me. ;-)
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net>
Subject: Rough River / Jeff Burns
Date: Sep 03, 2008
HI All,
I just got off the cell phone with Jeff Burns of Baby Blue fame. As
most of you know he lives in Baton Rough LA and hurricane Gustov's eye
came within 20 miles of him. The entire town is without power but he is
still planning on driving to Rough River. This can only happen if the
power comes back by tomorrow night. They have printing machines with
his business he can't leave without power. He ask me to let you all
know and he will call me by tomorrow night to let me know one way or
the other. I will have his confirmation number should he not come for
the cabin as I was planning on splitting it with him. He told me of
someone that wanted the couch but I forgot who, so if you get this you
can e-mail me direct and know there will be a bedroom open up if he
can't make it. I will let everyone know what's going on with him & Mary
by tomorrow night.
He also said his local EAA hanger was leveled by the storm. Fortunately
he's had trouble with Baby Blue and it was in his garage for some
repairs. Sometimes it does seem like all things happen for a reason.
;o) Lets keep him in our thoughts.
Best Regards,
Jeff Roberts
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 149 hours and climbing slowly.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Jos Okhuisen
Date: Sep 03, 2008
Hi! Frans/all
As a novice I agree with your suggestion on the "check valve" in the
return line and your impact theory for rubber pipes but the latter item
would be marginal either way IMHO. The main thing is to apply the
maximum delay of fuel spreading to the likely fire source at the front
or under you and an element of chance would apply to either type of
pipe. This is what has prompted me/many to replace the glass filters
under the seat for Andair in the fuselage away from the pilot and /or
have a different sight gauge to one encircling the pilot.
All such things have to be weight considered otherwise an automatic
extinguisher system with heavy tankage to supply but I'm sure you don't
need me to remark on that.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans
Veldman
Sent: 03 September 2008 16:52
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
Hi Jos and all,
> Hi Frans and all, The silence is the normal waiting for the
> investigation to come to a conclusion.
Ok, I understand that. It is just that a few days ago you wrote that you
were going to post more detailed information the next day, but I never
saw it, so I wondered what happened. Glad that you are still ok.
> Now a thick branch wiped the right side of the cockpit off, breaking
> the fuel return alu tube.
Ok, two toughts about that:
1) The fuel return line is obviously a risk, as it can not be closed
with the fuel valve, and once broken it allows the tank to drain
completely. I just realised that this risk can be minimised by putting a
check-valve (one way valve) in the return line. So fuel can go TO the
tank, but never FROM the tank. Has anyone ever considered this? I think
I'm going to put this into my fuel system, unless someone can tell me
why it is not a good idea to do so.
2) I have seen that many builders do away with the rubber hoses and use
aluminium. Maybe the risk is higher with aluminium, since these tubes
breaks easily, whereas rubber hoses just give way to impacts.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rough River Camping area?
Hi Rich,
The Rough River folks let airplane people camp on the grass by there
aircraft. The bathrooms at the airstrip have hot showers, and if the
weather gets really bad you can just bring your matress & sleeping bag
into the FBO office.
I have camped many times during the canard fly in event and it has
worked out nicely for me.
So, in short, there are no assigned campsite number for airplane
people and plenty of room and you will be close to everything.
Look forward to seeing you there !
Regards, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karel Vranken <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Autopilot /Trio Avionics - Dynon
Date: Sep 03, 2008
Raimo=2C
I have a Trutrak wingleveler and for the 200 hours I have flown it works gr
eat. It is slaved to the Garmin 430 and intercepts at the waypoints of the
route. Also good after sales service.
Best regards=2C
Karel Vranken.
> From: raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Europa
-List: Autopilot /Trio Avionics - Dynon> Date: Wed=2C 3 Sep 2008 10:54:57 +
.fi>> > All> > I have decided to install autopilot=2C probably one axis onl
y.> > Trio Avionic=B4s Ez Pilot looks neat.> Also their customer support se
ems to be fast and pro=2C so far.> > On the other hand=2C I have in my pane
l Dynon D10A.> I know there is a possibility to update it for Dynon=B4s aut
opilot.> That would be much cheaper way but somehow I do not like that idea
.> > What about user=B4s experience=B4s?> Somebody there - do you have any
========================> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm-systems.fi>
Subject: fuel filters
Date: Sep 03, 2008
"This is what has prompted me/many to replace the glass filters
> under the seat for Andair in the fuselage away from the pilot"
Yes Bob, glass is very bad!
I broke one during towing the plane and one went later in the garage by
itself.
I was full off fuel bathing.
Local firearm people adviced me to make thinks beter.
Replaced them to the Original Rotax one-piece-plastic ones and have been
since happy.
Cheap, easy to check and maintain.
During possible emergency landing I am sure they (plastic fuel filters) will
be my smallest reason for worries.
Regards, Raimo
OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
> Hi! Frans/all
> As a novice I agree with your suggestion on the "check valve" in the
> return line and your impact theory for rubber pipes but the latter item
> would be marginal either way IMHO. The main thing is to apply the
> maximum delay of fuel spreading to the likely fire source at the front
> or under you and an element of chance would apply to either type of
> pipe. This is what has prompted me/many to replace the glass filters
> under the seat for Andair in the fuselage away from the pilot and /or
> have a different sight gauge to one encircling the pilot.
> All such things have to be weight considered otherwise an automatic
> extinguisher system with heavy tankage to supply but I'm sure you don't
> need me to remark on that.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans
> Veldman
> Sent: 03 September 2008 16:52
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
>
> Hi Jos and all,
>
>> Hi Frans and all, The silence is the normal waiting for the
>> investigation to come to a conclusion.
>
> Ok, I understand that. It is just that a few days ago you wrote that you
> were going to post more detailed information the next day, but I never
> saw it, so I wondered what happened. Glad that you are still ok.
>
>> Now a thick branch wiped the right side of the cockpit off, breaking
>> the fuel return alu tube.
>
> Ok, two toughts about that:
>
> 1) The fuel return line is obviously a risk, as it can not be closed
> with the fuel valve, and once broken it allows the tank to drain
> completely. I just realised that this risk can be minimised by putting a
> check-valve (one way valve) in the return line. So fuel can go TO the
> tank, but never FROM the tank. Has anyone ever considered this? I think
> I'm going to put this into my fuel system, unless someone can tell me
> why it is not a good idea to do so.
>
> 2) I have seen that many builders do away with the rubber hoses and use
> aluminium. Maybe the risk is higher with aluminium, since these tubes
> breaks easily, whereas rubber hoses just give way to impacts.
>
> Frans
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Date: Sep 03, 2008
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a fixed
pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The engine is
a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge is
mandatory. Anyone know why?
Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of monitoring
manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more relevant
to turbocharged engines.
Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would guess
the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod required on the
engine?
Thanks for the explanation in advance.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
I'm looking at the bottom of the control stick as I assemble the
various parts and am wondering what is the best practice (in UK) for
getting the wiring from a switch or switches mounted on the top of
the stick out of the stick at or near the bottom.
I had a troll through the list archives for various keywords but
couldn't find anything relevant, despite having a strong remembrance
of the topic being aired not so long ago.
I want a PTT at last on the P1 stick, but it would be nice to have a
duplicate trim switch there too. (Yes, I'm thinking about shielding
them from accidental activation.)
Obviously the electrical cable(s) should exit in a place that
minimises the chances of (a) fouling up the controls and (b) getting
chafed and causing shorts or open circuits.
It seems perhaps safest to make a hole in the aft side of the stick
(CS16) just above CS01. That way a conventional grommet can easily be
fitted, something that might be harder to do if the hole was lower
down and passing through the thickness of CS16, CS16B, and CS01.
What have other UK builders done that has met with approval from
inspectors and (if involved) LAA Engineering?
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Date: Sep 03, 2008
Hi! Carl
Don't know where you take it off on the 912 UL but the 914 has a sensor
already plumbed in .
You need the manifold pressure to know how much power you are applying (
you could be labouring the engine, since the prop is controlling the RPM
the throttle becomes the power applicator. I had this difficulty with
the 3300 Jabiru because they wouldn't give me MP/power/RPM/
ambient/altitude graphs I never knew where the engine was loaded until
many hours experimenting with fuel usage. Of course the Rotax is geared
so the RPM is still more complex.
Usually on a direct drive the rule of thumb is to run "squared" = 24" MP
to 2,400 Engine Rpm, at least in the initial stages of experimentation.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Pattinson
Sent: 03 September 2008 22:01
Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a fixed
pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The engine
is
a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge is
mandatory. Anyone know why?
Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of
monitoring
manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more
relevant
to turbocharged engines.
Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would
guess
the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod required on
the
engine?
Thanks for the explanation in advance.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
>
> I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a fixed
> pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The engine
> is a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
>
> The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge is
> mandatory. Anyone know why?
A CS prop keeps the rotation speed constant (hence the name Constant
Speed prop). The RMP gauge doesn't tell you the engine power anymore, it
shows just the prop setting. If you fly with a certain rpm, and throttle
back, nothing will change on your rpm gauge as the prop will keep the
rpm constant. Hence you won't notice anything as the engine looses power
for whatever reason. However, engine power can be determined by looking
at the manifold pressure. It is close to ambient pressure if the
throttle is wide open, and it will be showing a vacuum at idle, and of
course anything in between.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Date: Sep 03, 2008
From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" <terrys(at)cisco.com>
Hi Carl,
With a fixed pitch prop, you can get a relative indication of power
level from the engine rpm. So on a Cessna 152, your standard procedure
might be to pull the power back to 1500 rpm abeam the numbers on down
wind. With a constant speed prop, the rpm will be held constant over a
wide range of power settings, so the standard measure of power is
manifold pressure (although we also use fuel flow often). So on our
Europa I would normally pull the power back to 15 inches abeam the
numbers.
Regards,
Terry Seaver
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Pattinson
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:01 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
-->
I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a fixed
pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The engine
is a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge is
mandatory. Anyone know why?
Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of
monitoring manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was
more relevant to turbocharged engines.
Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would
guess the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod
required on the engine?
Thanks for the explanation in advance.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus
1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 03, 2008
Hi! Rowland
Find the place of smallest movement but not to weaken the control stick
along with your own appraisals mentioned below.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland &
Wilma Carson
Sent: 03 September 2008 17:37
Subject: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
I'm looking at the bottom of the control stick as I assemble the
various parts and am wondering what is the best practice (in UK) for
getting the wiring from a switch or switches mounted on the top of
the stick out of the stick at or near the bottom.
I had a troll through the list archives for various keywords but
couldn't find anything relevant, despite having a strong remembrance
of the topic being aired not so long ago.
I want a PTT at last on the P1 stick, but it would be nice to have a
duplicate trim switch there too. (Yes, I'm thinking about shielding
them from accidental activation.)
Obviously the electrical cable(s) should exit in a place that
minimises the chances of (a) fouling up the controls and (b) getting
chafed and causing shorts or open circuits.
It seems perhaps safest to make a hole in the aft side of the stick
(CS16) just above CS01. That way a conventional grommet can easily be
fitted, something that might be harder to do if the hole was lower
down and passing through the thickness of CS16, CS16B, and CS01.
What have other UK builders done that has met with approval from
inspectors and (if involved) LAA Engineering?
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: "David Buckley" <wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: Manifold Pressure Gauge
If you have a constant speed controller, and there is a loss of power in the
engine ( for example from carb ice), the RPM will remain constant ( within
the limits of the prop/CS system) as the prop will fine off.
The simple way to tell what power the engine is producing, if a power loss
occours, is via manifold pressure gauge.
On 03/09/2008, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
> carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a fixed
> pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The engine is
> a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
>
> The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge is
> mandatory. Anyone know why?
>
> Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of monitoring
> manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more relevant
> to turbocharged engines.
>
> Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would guess
> the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod required on the
> engine?
>
> Thanks for the explanation in advance.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this outgoing message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: "David Buckley" <wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
I have my only trim switch on the forward face of the stick. I was
excellent to use.
On 04/09/2008, Robert C Harrison wrote:
>
> ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Rowland
> Find the place of smallest movement but not to weaken the control stick
> along with your own appraisals mentioned below.
> Regards
> Bob H G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland &
> Wilma Carson
> Sent: 03 September 2008 17:37
> To: Europa e-mail list
> Subject: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>
>
>
> I'm looking at the bottom of the control stick as I assemble the
> various parts and am wondering what is the best practice (in UK) for
> getting the wiring from a switch or switches mounted on the top of
> the stick out of the stick at or near the bottom.
>
> I had a troll through the list archives for various keywords but
> couldn't find anything relevant, despite having a strong remembrance
> of the topic being aired not so long ago.
>
> I want a PTT at last on the P1 stick, but it would be nice to have a
> duplicate trim switch there too. (Yes, I'm thinking about shielding
> them from accidental activation.)
>
> Obviously the electrical cable(s) should exit in a place that
> minimises the chances of (a) fouling up the controls and (b) getting
> chafed and causing shorts or open circuits.
>
> It seems perhaps safest to make a hole in the aft side of the stick
> (CS16) just above CS01. That way a conventional grommet can easily be
> fitted, something that might be harder to do if the hole was lower
> down and passing through the thickness of CS16, CS16B, and CS01.
>
> What have other UK builders done that has met with approval from
> inspectors and (if involved) LAA Engineering?
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
> | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
> | 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
Frans & all
I agree a check valve might be good. I also think in a serious crash
either rubber or aluminum will fail.
The most likely cause of fire is electrical, as Jos tells us, first
action is to shut off the electrics.
In my crash I think the tank split. Battery was at the front and shot
off forwards straight away so "automatic switch off" probably occurred
as it were.
The problem is, when the workload gets too high one forgets the plan, ie
"we lose the plot!" I always tell mono drivers to pull stick full back
as soon as they feel the tailwheel touch. I never did remember to do it
myself, my brain was busy doing something else. Age? maybe but the more
you train yourself in these vital actions the more likely you will do it
when muck hits fan
Graham
Robert C Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Frans/all
> As a novice I agree with your suggestion on the "check valve" in the
> return line
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Rowland, An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has worked
well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed to stop the
pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.
As to trim on the stick, there is the thought that if you fly with
other pilots and share the flying, then the co pilot will want access to the
trim. For me having the switch with the indicator and a CB in some central
position, reasonably close to the throttle hand, makes more sense.
Regards, David, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rowland & Wilma Carson" <rowil(at)clara.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 5:36 PM
Subject: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>
>
> I'm looking at the bottom of the control stick as I assemble the various
> parts and am wondering what is the best practice (in UK) for getting the
> wiring from a switch or switches mounted on the top of the stick out of
> the stick at or near the bottom.
>
> I had a troll through the list archives for various keywords but couldn't
> find anything relevant, despite having a strong remembrance of the topic
> being aired not so long ago.
>
> I want a PTT at last on the P1 stick, but it would be nice to have a
> duplicate trim switch there too. (Yes, I'm thinking about shielding them
> from accidental activation.)
>
> Obviously the electrical cable(s) should exit in a place that minimises
> the chances of (a) fouling up the controls and (b) getting chafed and
> causing shorts or open circuits.
>
> It seems perhaps safest to make a hole in the aft side of the stick (CS16)
> just above CS01. That way a conventional grommet can easily be fitted,
> something that might be harder to do if the hole was lower down and
> passing through the thickness of CS16, CS16B, and CS01.
>
> What have other UK builders done that has met with approval from
> inspectors and (if involved) LAA Engineering?
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
> | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
> | 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Collings" <r.collings(at)onetel.net>
Subject: Re: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Carl Hi. Its not a dumb question at all, but one that you will have answered
to when you have completed the PPL licence endorsement cause for complexes
aircraft, i.e., those fitted with a variable pitch prop!You may already this
because of the mono's retractable undercarriage, but a couple of hours spent
under instruction in a complex single would be money well spent.
Regards Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:00 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>
>
> I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a fixed
> pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The engine
> is
> a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
>
> The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge is
> mandatory. Anyone know why?
>
> Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of monitoring
> manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more
> relevant
> to turbocharged engines.
>
> Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would
> guess
> the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod required on
> the
> engine?
>
> Thanks for the explanation in advance.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this outgoing message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
6:02 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?
Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?
Cheers
Willie Harrison
G-BZNY Kit 401
>
>
> Rowland, An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has
> worked well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed
> to stop the pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "UVTReith" <uvtreith@t-online.de>
Subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Hi Willie,
Europa Aircraft UK can supply these. Leather gaiters in grey and beige.
45 GBP per set.
They have these self locking tapes on for fixing it to the floor and seat.
But you can use them only, when you can get them over the stick. When you
have a big grip on they will not fit or you have to open the sewing of the
top part a little.
Best Regards,
Bruno
-----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] Im Auftrag von William
Harrison
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. September 2008 10:51
An: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Betreff: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?
Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?
Cheers
Willie Harrison
G-BZNY Kit 401
>
>
> Rowland, An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has
> worked well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed
> to stop the pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "yannick LAURENS" <yck.laurens(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: refueling troubles
Date: Sep 04, 2008
In fact, my air vent for the tank is just above the filling connection
on the tank , and exit near the cap, and there is a low spot on the
tube, so probably , some gasoline enter the tube from time to time . but
I am surprise for the possibillity of air lock, during the refueling ??
thank's for your reply
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has worked
>well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed to stop
>the pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.
David - thanks, I have a set of Tim Ward's boots, but I'm not sure
about keeping the wiring inside them as there is no guarantee that
the wires won't chafe on the moving parts while out of sight in
there. I think I'd prefer to take the wire down the outside of the
boot, although that would be less aesthetic. However I suppose
(thinking aloud here) the ideal solution would be an extra strip of
leather sewn on to the outside (or even better inside) of the boot to
form a channel down the boot between its (mobile) top edge and its
(fixed) bottom edge. That would keep the wire under control and
pretty safe from chafing as well as from snagging on one's high heels.
>if you fly with other pilots and share the flying, then the co pilot
>will want access to the trim. For me having the switch with the
>indicator and a CB in some central position, reasonably close to the
>throttle hand, makes more sense.
I was thinking of a duplicate switch on the stick, leaving the
central one in position, but I don't know if LAA Engineering has
approved such an arrangement. If not, I wouldn't want to be the first
to lock horns with them over FMEA!
It's just that most of the aircraft I've flown with electric trim
have a rocker switch on the yoke and I've found that so much more
ergonomic and fast to use than reaching across to a separate switch
or a mechanical trim wheel.
However, I may have to settle for a single central switch just to
keep life simple.
Incidentally, I'm not planning to use a commercial stick grip as they
are mostly fitted with much more complex switchery than what I want.
I do believe that the grips I want are hiding inside some chucks of
mahogany that I have lying around - I just have to let them out, as
the sculptors say. But before I do that, I will need to decide how
many switches they must accomodate and where the switch(es) should go
.....
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>I wouldn't drill the stick to the size for a conventional gromit -
>this would seriously weaken the stick
Peter - I hadn't considered that a hole big enough for a grommet
would compromise the strength of the stick - after all it's got to
have 2 off 1/4" holes drilled in it near the bottom for the AN4-17A
bolt that secures it to CS01.
>the reason that the stick
>diameter was increased when it went from steel to ali was that the ali
>stick at the smaller diameter was not stong enough at higher G
Now I'm really confused! My CS16 are steel, have 2 bends and are 1"
OD. They came in an XS fuselage kit collected in September 2001. When
did the sticks change to aluminium?
I know the original Classic sticks were straight, but I don't know
what diameter they were or what material they were made of. My paper
manual (page 13-11 issue 1) still shows the straight sticks, but
later PDFs show the cranked ones.
This suggests that there been 3 different types of stick supplied in
Europa kits over the years - straight Classic, small steel cranked,
large aluminium cranked. Is that correct?
>On HI, we have drilled holes at an angle to the stick (heading
>downwards) at the front of the stick (just above the point where the
>stick passes in to the tuffnel bush). the hole is bigger than the
>screened wire that runs to the PTT (and comm box frequency change) -
>I've put some heatshrink over the screened cable where it passes
>through the stick (and a zip tie each side to make sure that the cable
>stays in place)
That sounds OK. If the grommet is eliminated I think you definitely
need to ensure that the wire is not going to move relative to the
metal and thus chafe. After deburring the hole (as far away from
orthogonal to stick surface as possible so the wire has a minimal
chicane to negotiate) I'm inclined to go for a tie-wrap around the
stick below the exit, and some sort of bung or spacer to immobilise
it inside and above the hole too.
It would be interesting to know if there is any authoritative answer
to how large a hole can safely be made in the stick - and how that
answer changes for the (3?) different models of stick!
I'm copying this reply back to the list as Peter's e-mail client has
been set to reply to the "from" address (me) rather than the
"reply-to" address (the list).
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>Find the place of smallest movement but not to weaken the control stick
Bob - I think least movement is somewhere between the pitch-axis
pivot bolt and the rod-end-bearing connecting to the pitch pushrod.
It looks as though there is enough room inside CS01 to get the sort
of wire I want to use past the AN5-23 pitch pivot bolt. CS01 is
fairly beefy there, so I'd hope a radial hole would not cause
significant weakness, but it would be nice to have an answer from
someone who knows about the stress calculations for that part.
That exit hole would be insde the leather boot and so I'd want to
make the sort of anti-chafe provision for the wire that I dreamed up
in my reply to David Joyce.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?
Willie - Tim Ward, a regular poster on this list, sells nice leather
ones made by a leatherworker in NZ, and supplies them worldwide.
>Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?
Not sure how that would work .... Mine are not in service yet, but
I'm planning to keep them fitted once they're on!
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Hi! Willie
I recall that a guy in New Zealand made quite a lot in leather but I
have no details of them. I made a fiberglass box to encompass the whole
mechanism at the bottom of both control sticks and they have a simple
leather boot to the sticks and a draw string to tighten them on. Go to
http://www.crix.org.uk and click on "Bob Harrison's Europa G-PTAG" then
select Control Sticks.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Harrison
Sent: 04 September 2008 09:51
Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?
Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?
Cheers
Willie Harrison
G-BZNY Kit 401
>
>
> Rowland, An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has
> worked well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed
> to stop the pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: danny shepherd <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Subject: fire extinguisher
Hi All,
Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: "peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk" <peter.rees01(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Hi Roland
You are correct in that there have been (at least) 3 designs of stick
- As you say, the early ones were straight - The position of these was
so far forwards that the PTT very nearly touches the map tray.
When we bought HI, it had a stick with a single crank in and made from
Ali - this was the larger diameter (ie it fitted into the CS-01 without
a bush). The position was pretty good but still not great.
The later ones, supplied in the XS kits are double cranked, smaller
diameter (requiring a bush to allow it to fit to the CS-01) - this
places the stick much better for those of us of a shorter stature.
Peter
----Original Message----
From: rowil(at)clara.net
Date: 04/09/2008 15:04
Subj: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
net>
>I wouldn't drill the stick to the size for a conventional gromit -
>this would seriously weaken the stick
Peter - I hadn't considered that a hole big enough for a grommet
would compromise the strength of the stick - after all it's got to
have 2 off 1/4" holes drilled in it near the bottom for the AN4-17A
bolt that secures it to CS01.
>the reason that the stick
>diameter was increased when it went from steel to ali was that the
ali
>stick at the smaller diameter was not stong enough at higher G
Now I'm really confused! My CS16 are steel, have 2 bends and are 1"
OD. They came in an XS fuselage kit collected in September 2001. When
did the sticks change to aluminium?
I know the original Classic sticks were straight, but I don't know
what diameter they were or what material they were made of. My paper
manual (page 13-11 issue 1) still shows the straight sticks, but
later PDFs show the cranked ones.
This suggests that there been 3 different types of stick supplied in
Europa kits over the years - straight Classic, small steel cranked,
large aluminium cranked. Is that correct?
>On HI, we have drilled holes at an angle to the stick (heading
>downwards) at the front of the stick (just above the point where the
>stick passes in to the tuffnel bush). the hole is bigger than the
>screened wire that runs to the PTT (and comm box frequency change) -
>I've put some heatshrink over the screened cable where it passes
>through the stick (and a zip tie each side to make sure that the
cable
>stays in place)
That sounds OK. If the grommet is eliminated I think you definitely
need to ensure that the wire is not going to move relative to the
metal and thus chafe. After deburring the hole (as far away from
orthogonal to stick surface as possible so the wire has a minimal
chicane to negotiate) I'm inclined to go for a tie-wrap around the
stick below the exit, and some sort of bung or spacer to immobilise
it inside and above the hole too.
It would be interesting to know if there is any authoritative answer
to how large a hole can safely be made in the stick - and how that
answer changes for the (3?) different models of stick!
I'm copying this reply back to the list as Peter's e-mail client has
been set to reply to the "from" address (me) rather than the
"reply-to" address (the list).
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
How safe is your email? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securemail
__________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Hi! Rowland
Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by Mac,
that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went to the
PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the buttons since
they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I made to
get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but it seems to
have gone missing, John Cliff may have been shrinking the site a little
and decided to remove it . I also have all the switches duplicated on
the panel but the relays necessary are a bit mind blowing! I hope there
is never an issue needing them sorted whilst I have the 'plane !
regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland &
Wilma Carson
Sent: 04 September 2008 15:42
Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has worked
>well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed to stop
>the pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.
David - thanks, I have a set of Tim Ward's boots, but I'm not sure
about keeping the wiring inside them as there is no guarantee that
the wires won't chafe on the moving parts while out of sight in
there. I think I'd prefer to take the wire down the outside of the
boot, although that would be less aesthetic. However I suppose
(thinking aloud here) the ideal solution would be an extra strip of
leather sewn on to the outside (or even better inside) of the boot to
form a channel down the boot between its (mobile) top edge and its
(fixed) bottom edge. That would keep the wire under control and
pretty safe from chafing as well as from snagging on one's high heels.
>if you fly with other pilots and share the flying, then the co pilot
>will want access to the trim. For me having the switch with the
>indicator and a CB in some central position, reasonably close to the
>throttle hand, makes more sense.
I was thinking of a duplicate switch on the stick, leaving the
central one in position, but I don't know if LAA Engineering has
approved such an arrangement. If not, I wouldn't want to be the first
to lock horns with them over FMEA!
It's just that most of the aircraft I've flown with electric trim
have a rocker switch on the yoke and I've found that so much more
ergonomic and fast to use than reaching across to a separate switch
or a mechanical trim wheel.
However, I may have to settle for a single central switch just to
keep life simple.
Incidentally, I'm not planning to use a commercial stick grip as they
are mostly fitted with much more complex switchery than what I want.
I do believe that the grips I want are hiding inside some chucks of
mahogany that I have lying around - I just have to let them out, as
the sculptors say. But before I do that, I will need to decide how
many switches they must accomodate and where the switch(es) should go
.....
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Hi! Danny
I have a CFC ?(Believe it was that can't say positively since the
aircraft is locked away in the trailor , it's not water and not powder
anyway!) behind the passenger seat head rest and part of the passenger
drill is to point out where it is .......it gives them lots of
confidence !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of danny
shepherd
Sent: 04 September 2008 16:58
Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
Hi All,
Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Danny=2C
I have a halon gas extiguisher. as far as i know it is only available from
acs. position is same as described by bob.
Karl> Date: Thu=2C 4 Sep 2008 16:58:03 +0100> From:
danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Europa-
d > > Hi All=2C> Can anyone tell me what kind of
fire extinguisher they have in > there plane=2C and where about did they f
it it. I have been looking at the > usual suppliers=2C and I'm a bit confus
ed as to which one I should fit.> > Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to t
============> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Robert C Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Rowland
> Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by Mac,
> that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went to the
> PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the buttons since
> they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I made to
> get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but it seems to
> have gone missing,
I know of one case where the Mac switch probably got nudged and caused
the aircraft to be grossly out of trim (nose up) the aircraft spun in
from about 100 feet
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: CS10 rivet hole positions
I have (rather foolishly it seems) bonded the CS10C caps into the
ends of the CS10 pitch torque tube without measuring the depth of the
CS10C flanges. Now that I come to add the rivets, nowhere on the
diagrams or text can I find reference to how far fom the end of CS10
the rivet holes should be drilled. I have a mental picture of the
CS10C flange, but I don't feel comfortable drilling holes based on
that! There's not a lot of leeway between (a) having the hole too
close to the front face of CS10C so the rivet will be obstructed by
it and won't set properly and (b) having it too far away and breaking
out of the edge of the flange.
Anyone got a CS01C not yet inserted that they can measure and let me
have the depth of the flange, please?
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: david miller <loboloda(at)execulink.com>
Subject: Re: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Hi Danny,
Same as Karl, I have a Halon extinguisher, had to bring it in from
Oshkosh as
they don't seem to be allowed to be sold in Canada.
Mounted on the centre consul, low down, just ahead of the seat and
angled forward.
I can reach it from there, and it is not in the way of feet or legs.
Dave
On 4-Sep-08, at 1:18 PM, Karl Heindl wrote:
> Danny,
>
> I have a halon gas extiguisher. as far as i know it is only
> available from acs. position is same as described by bob.
> Karl
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 16:58:03 +0100
> > From: danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk
> > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
> >
>
> >
> > Hi All,
> > Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
> > there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking
> at the
> > usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should
> fit.
> >
> > Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
> >
> > ========
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
I have two trim swithes: one is in the stick (full speed)
and other one is on the panel (adjustable speed).
I use stick switch when landing (low air speed - faster trim speed)
and panel switch during cruise (fast air speed - slower trim speed).
I have a changeover switch to select which mode to use.
If one switch would go broken, I have still other one left over to trim.
Trim CB is near panel switch just in case to stop possible autotrim.
Raimo
OH-XT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>
> Robert C Harrison wrote:
> >
> > Hi! Rowland
> > Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by Mac,
> > that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went to the
> > PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the buttons since
> > they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I made to
> > get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but it seems to
> > have gone missing,
> I know of one case where the Mac switch probably got nudged and caused
> the aircraft to be grossly out of trim (nose up) the aircraft spun in
> from about 100 feet
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karel Vranken <karelvranken(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Rowland=2C
I have both trim controls=2C one on the stick and one on the panel with the
matronics control system. This works first used first served.
Best regards=2C
Karel vranken.
> From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subject:
Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?> Date: Thu=2C 4 Sep
vidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>> > Rowland=2C An exit hole at the back of the stic
k just above CS01 has worked > well for me. The wire is covered by a flexib
le boot designed to stop the > pens & other things you will drop jamming th
e controls.> As to trim on the stick=2C there is the thought that if you fl
y with > other pilots and share the flying=2C then the co pilot will want a
ccess to the > trim. For me having the switch with the indicator and a CB i
n some central > position=2C reasonably close to the throttle hand=2C makes
more sense.> Regards=2C David=2C G-XSDJ> ----- Original Message ----- > Fr
om: "Rowland & Wilma Carson" > To: "Europa e-mail list" > Sent: Wednesday=2C September 03=2C 2008 5:36 PM>
Subject: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?> > > > --> Eur
opa-List message posted by: Rowland & Wilma Carson > > > >
> > I'm looking at the bottom of the control stick as I assemble the variou
s > > parts and am wondering what is the best practice (in UK) for getting
the > > wiring from a switch or switches mounted on the top of the stick ou
t of > > the stick at or near the bottom.> >> > I had a troll through the l
ist archives for various keywords but couldn't > > find anything relevant
=2C despite having a strong remembrance of the topic > > being aired not so
long ago.> >> > I want a PTT at last on the P1 stick=2C but it would be ni
ce to have a > > duplicate trim switch there too. (Yes=2C I'm thinking abou
t shielding them > > from accidental activation.)> >> > Obviously the elect
rical cable(s) should exit in a place that minimises > > the chances of (a)
fouling up the controls and (b) getting chafed and > > causing shorts or o
pen circuits.> >> > It seems perhaps safest to make a hole in the aft side
of the stick (CS16) > > just above CS01. That way a conventional grommet ca
n easily be fitted=2C > > something that might be harder to do if the hole
was lower down and > > passing through the thickness of CS16=2C CS16B=2C an
d CS01.> >> > What have other UK builders done that has met with approval f
rom > > inspectors and (if involved) LAA Engineering?> >> > regards> >> > R
owland> > -- > > | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/av
iation/> > | 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail > >
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Danny,
when airborne, Halon is your one and ONLY possibility in the case of fire.
Normal "on the ground use" is illegal but aviation use is still legal.
CO2 and powder types will kill you ( + powder spoils your panel etc!!!).
Water-fox-type -extinguishers are also not very practical.
There was a great article of that question this year in the magazine
Sport Pilot or Sport Aviation (USA EAA). Maybe some
American could find that article and let us know the main facts.
If not I wll do it.
I fitted my (little) bottle between centre console and P2 backseat.
Always visible and easy to find and use.
Raimo from Finland
OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "danny shepherd" <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 6:58 PM
Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
> Hi All,
> Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
> there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
> usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
>
> Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Tim Ward from NZ makes great boots.
I am very proud of mine. All the colours available.
Raimo from Finland
OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>
>
> Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?
>
> Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?
>
> Cheers
>
> Willie Harrison
> G-BZNY Kit 401
>
> >
> >
> > Rowland, An exit hole at the back of the stick just above CS01 has
> > worked well for me. The wire is covered by a flexible boot designed
> > to stop the pens & other things you will drop jamming the controls.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_fire_extinguisher?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
I may be wrong Danni but I think Halon extinguishers are now no longer
available in the UK anyway (aka BCF bromo chloro fluorethane) because they
are considered harmful to the environment.
Legislation prohibits the sale of halon products from December 31st 2002. -
NO IM NOT WRONG !!! http://www.mfs-fire-extinguishers.co.uk/halon.htm
The only other alternative suitable for aircraft use are dry powder. Water
is unsuitable for aircraft use and too heavy and foam although acceptable is
also too heavy. CO2 is probably the best substitute but again too heavy for
aircraft use.
Halon if you can get it is undoubtedly the best as it is effective against a
wide range of fires and wont damage the aircraft structure, engine or wiring
if used. I have seen all of the above used in real life and used properly
the Halon variety is by far the best - note Halon is extremely toxic in
confined spaces (you wouldnt want to use it in an enclosed cockpit).
We have a Halon extinguisher 3kg but its getting on a bit (it had a twin but
I accidentally set it off in the garage by mistake last week - but at least
it proved the thing worked).
Good luck in your search.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "danny shepherd" <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:58 PM
Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
> Hi All,
> Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
> there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
> usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
>
> Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this incoming message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Date: Sep 04, 2008
I am looking for a very small MAP gauge - digital or analogical.
Does anybody have a tip?
Ideal would be a CS prop controller WITH integrated gauge
but there obviously does not exist any.
Raimo from Finland
OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Collings" <r.collings(at)onetel.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>
> Carl Hi. Its not a dumb question at all, but one that you will have answered
> to when you have completed the PPL licence endorsement cause for complexes
> aircraft, i.e., those fitted with a variable pitch prop!You may already this
> because of the mono's retractable undercarriage, but a couple of hours spent
> under instruction in a complex single would be money well spent.
> Regards Richard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:00 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>
>
> >
> >
> > I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a fixed
> > pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The engine
> > is
> > a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
> >
> > The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge is
> > mandatory. Anyone know why?
> >
> > Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of monitoring
> > manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more
> > relevant
> > to turbocharged engines.
> >
> > Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would
> > guess
> > the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod required on
> > the
> > engine?
> >
> > Thanks for the explanation in advance.
> >
> > Carl Pattinson
> > G-LABS
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________
> > No viruses found in this outgoing message
> > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> > http://www.iolo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 6:02 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_fire_extinguisher?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
Exceptions for Usage of Halon Fire Extinguishers
There are only three main exceptions for Halon fire extinguisher usage; in
aircraft, military use including vehicles and fuel installations, and in the
Channel Tunnel. So, don't worry if you spot a green Halon fire extinguisher
on an airplane - it's allowed to be there!
It appears I am wrong regarding the use of Halon extinguishers. Apparently
Aircraft use is exempt from the ruling. The question is where to get them
from.
I note they are widely available in the USA but suspect importing them into
the UK would present a problem.
----- Original Message -----
From: "danny shepherd" <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:58 PM
Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
> Hi All,
> Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
> there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
> usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
>
> Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this incoming message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net>
Subject: Re: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Raimo,
I don't know about the gauge but I couldn't help noticing your
beautiful Europa in this months EAA Sport Aviation. Congratulations on
a great looking plane and thanks for some fine recognition of our
plane.
Jeff Roberts,
USA
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 150 hours and climbing slowly.
On Sep 4, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
>
> I am looking for a very small MAP gauge - digital or analogical.
> Does anybody have a tip?
>
> Ideal would be a CS prop controller WITH integrated gauge
> but there obviously does not exist any.
>
> Raimo from Finland
> OH-XRT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Collings" <r.collings(at)onetel.net>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>
>
>>
>>
>> Carl Hi. Its not a dumb question at all, but one that you will have
>> answered
>> to when you have completed the PPL licence endorsement cause for
>> complexes
>> aircraft, i.e., those fitted with a variable pitch prop!You may
>> already this
>> because of the mono's retractable undercarriage, but a couple of
>> hours spent
>> under instruction in a complex single would be money well spent.
>> Regards Richard
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>> To:
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:00 PM
>> Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a
>>> fixed
>>> pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The
>>> engine
>>> is
>>> a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
>>>
>>> The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge
>>> is
>>> mandatory. Anyone know why?
>>>
>>> Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of
>>> monitoring
>>> manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more
>>> relevant
>>> to turbocharged engines.
>>>
>>> Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would
>>> guess
>>> the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod
>>> required on
>>> the
>>> engine?
>>>
>>> Thanks for the explanation in advance.
>>>
>>> Carl Pattinson
>>> G-LABS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________
>>> No viruses found in this outgoing message
>>> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
>>> http://www.iolo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> 6:02 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2008
From: "David Buckley" <wooburnaviation(at)googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
On my last fire course I was told that Haylon is still available for
aviation use only, so maybe they are available through specialist
suppliers? We still use Haylon on the Embraer 145 for engine and APU
extinguishers.
On 04/09/2008, Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
> carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> I may be wrong Danni but I think Halon extinguishers are now no longer
> available in the UK anyway (aka BCF bromo chloro fluorethane) because they
> are considered harmful to the environment.
>
> Legislation prohibits the sale of halon products from December 31st 2002. -
> NO IM NOT WRONG !!! http://www.mfs-fire-extinguishers.co.uk/halon.htm
>
> The only other alternative suitable for aircraft use are dry powder. Water
> is unsuitable for aircraft use and too heavy and foam although acceptable is
> also too heavy. CO2 is probably the best substitute but again too heavy for
> aircraft use.
>
> Halon if you can get it is undoubtedly the best as it is effective against
> a wide range of fires and wont damage the aircraft structure, engine or
> wiring if used. I have seen all of the above used in real life and used
> properly the Halon variety is by far the best - note Halon is extremely
> toxic in confined spaces (you wouldnt want to use it in an enclosed
> cockpit).
>
> We have a Halon extinguisher 3kg but its getting on a bit (it had a twin
> but I accidentally set it off in the garage by mistake last week - but at
> least it proved the thing worked).
>
> Good luck in your search.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "danny shepherd" <
> danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
> To: "matronics"
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:58 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
>> danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
>>
>> Hi All,
>> Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
>> there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
>> usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
>>
>> Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________
>> No viruses found in this incoming message
>> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
>> http://www.iolo.com
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this outgoing message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Raimo-
The article on your airplane is in this month's Sport Aviation. It is well done
and I really enjoyed reading it.
Jim Puglise, Punta Gorda, FL
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
>
> I have two trim swithes: one is in the stick (full speed)
> and other one is on the panel (adjustable speed).
> I use stick switch when landing (low air speed - faster trim speed)
> and panel switch during cruise (fast air speed - slower trim speed).
> I have a changeover switch to select which mode to use.
> If one switch would go broken, I have still other one left over to trim.
> Trim CB is near panel switch just in case to stop possible autotrim.
>
> Raimo
> OH-XT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Singleton"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>
>
>
> >
> > Robert C Harrison wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Hi! Rowland
> > > Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by Mac,
> > > that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went to the
> > > PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the buttons since
> > > they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I made to
> > > get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but it seems to
> > > have gone missing,
> > I know of one case where the Mac switch probably got nudged and caused
> > the aircraft to be grossly out of trim (nose up) the aircraft spun in
> > from about 100 feet
> > Graham
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Raimo-
The article on your airplane is in this month's Sport Aviation. It is
well done and I really enjoyed reading it.
Jim Puglise, Punta Gorda, FL
> --> Europa-List message posted
by: "Raimo Toivio"
>
> I have two trim swithes:
one is in the stick (full speed)
> and other one is on the panel (adjustable
speed).
> I use stick switch when landing (low air speed - faster
trim speed)
> and panel switch during cruise (fast air speed - slower
trim speed).
> I have a changeover switch to select which mode to
use.
> If one switch would go broken, I have still other one left over
to trim.
> Trim CB is near panel switch just in case to stop possible autotrim.
>
> Raimo
> OH-XT
> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>> From: "Graham Singleton" <GRAHAMSINGLETON(at)BTINTERNET.COM><BR>>
To:
> Sent: Th
ursday
, September 04, 2008 9:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
>
> >
> > Robert C Harrison wrote:
> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert C Harrison"
>
> > >
> > > Hi! Rowland
> > > Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by Mac,
> > > that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went to the
> > > PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the buttons since
> > > they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I made to
> > > get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but it seems to
> > > have gone missing,
> > I know of one case where the Mac switch probab
ly got
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: fire extinguisher
Date: Dec 31, 1987
Ditto mine: Halon and behind-the-passenger-'headrest' mounting position,
which is out of the way, within easy reach and doesn't become a projectile
in a frontal crash.
BTW, it takes a 10Kg pull to release the 1Kg bottle. So any deceleration of
-10g in the direction of release will see the extinguisher becoming a free
agent.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> Hi! Danny
> I have a CFC ?(Believe it was that can't say positively since the
> aircraft is locked away in the trailor , it's not water and not powder
> anyway!) behind the passenger seat head rest and part of the passenger
> drill is to point out where it is .......it gives them lots of
> confidence !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of danny
> shepherd
> Sent: 04 September 2008 16:58
> To: matronics
> Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> Hi All,
> Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
>
> there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
>
> usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
>
> Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Raimo=2C
The CS1 controller from Smart Avionics=2C displays the m. pressure=2C if yo
u have the optional pressure switch . I believe it is 50 punds.
Karl<html><div></div>> From: raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> To: europa-list@ma
tronics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge> Date: Thu
Toivio" > > I am looking for a very small MAP gauge -
digital or analogical.> Does anybody have a tip?> > Ideal would be a CS pro
p controller WITH integrated gauge> but there obviously does not exist any.
> > Raimo from Finland> OH-XRT> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich
ard Collings" > To: > Sen
t: Thursday=2C September 04=2C 2008 12:54 PM> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Man
lings" > > > > Carl Hi. Its not a dumb question at a
ll=2C but one that you will have answered > > to when you have completed th
e PPL licence endorsement cause for complexes > > aircraft=2C i.e.=2C those
fitted with a variable pitch prop!You may already this > > because of the
mono's retractable undercarriage=2C but a couple of hours spent > > under i
nstruction in a complex single would be money well spent.> > Regards Richar
d> > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.f
reeserve.co.uk>> > To: > > Sent: Wednesday=2C Se
ptember 03=2C 2008 10:00 PM> > Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gaug
arl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>> > >> > > I am just filling in the LAA form to
change our propeller (from a fixed> > > pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ S
mart Avionics controller). The engine > > > is> > > a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.> >
>> > > The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gaug
e is> > > mandatory. Anyone know why?> > >> > > Its probably a dumb questio
n but I dont understand the point of monitoring> > > manifold pressure on a
normal engine. I always thought it was more > > > relevant> > > to turboch
arged engines.> > >> > > Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on t
he engine - I would > > > guess> > > the balancing pipe between the carbure
ttors - is there a mod required on > > > the> > > engine?> > >> > > Thanks
for the explanation in advance.> > >> > > Carl Pattinson> > > G-LABS> > >>
> >> > >> > > _______________________________________> > > No viruses found
in this outgoing message> > > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5> > > http:
//www.iolo.com> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------> > > > > > >
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com> > 6:02 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
=======> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Manifold Pressure Gauge
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Raimo=2C I meant POUNDS
The CS1 controller from Smart Avionics=2C displays the m. pressure=2C if yo
u have the optional pressure switch . I believe it is 50 punds.
Karl<html><div></div>> From: raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> To: europa-list@ma
tronics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge> Date: Thu
Toivio" > > I am looking for a very small MAP gauge -
digital or analogical.> Does anybody have a tip?> > Ideal would be a CS pro
p controller WITH integrated gauge> but there obviously does not exist any.
> > Raimo from Finland> OH-XRT> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich
ard Collings" > To: > Sen
t: Thursday=2C September 04=2C 2008 12:54 PM> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Man
lings" > > > > Carl Hi. Its not a dumb question at a
ll=2C but one that you will have answered > > to when you have completed th
e PPL licence endorsement cause for complexes > > aircraft=2C i.e.=2C those
fitted with a variable pitch prop!You may already this > > because of the
mono's retractable undercarriage=2C but a couple of hours spent > > under i
nstruction in a complex single would be money well spent.> > Regards Richar
d> > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.f
reeserve.co.uk>> > To: > > Sent: Wednesday=2C Se
ptember 03=2C 2008 10:00 PM> > Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gaug
arl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>> > >> > > I am just filling in the LAA form to
change our propeller (from a fixed> > > pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ S
mart Avionics controller). The engine > > > is> > > a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.> >
>> > > The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gaug
e is> > > mandatory. Anyone know why?> > >> > > Its probably a dumb questio
n but I dont understand the point of monitoring> > > manifold pressure on a
normal engine. I always thought it was more > > > relevant> > > to turboch
arged engines.> > >> > > Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on t
he engine - I would > > > guess> > > the balancing pipe between the carbure
ttors - is there a mod required on > > > the> > > engine?> > >> > > Thanks
for the explanation in advance.> > >> > > Carl Pattinson> > > G-LABS> > >>
> >> > >> > > _______________________________________> > > No viruses found
in this outgoing message> > > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5> > > http:
//www.iolo.com> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------> > > > > > >
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com> > 6:02 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
=======> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: CS10 rivet hole positions
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Hi! Rowland
Can't help with your request for dimensions but I'm concerned that you
have the modified end caps. I recall that there was a mod involved since
the centre boss was fatiguing somehow.
Please check it out.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland &
Wilma Carson
Sent: 04 September 2008 19:22
Subject: Europa-List: CS10 rivet hole positions
I have (rather foolishly it seems) bonded the CS10C caps into the
ends of the CS10 pitch torque tube without measuring the depth of the
CS10C flanges. Now that I come to add the rivets, nowhere on the
diagrams or text can I find reference to how far fom the end of CS10
the rivet holes should be drilled. I have a mental picture of the
CS10C flange, but I don't feel comfortable drilling holes based on
that! There's not a lot of leeway between (a) having the hole too
close to the front face of CS10C so the rivet will be obstructed by
it and won't set properly and (b) having it too far away and breaking
out of the edge of the flange.
Anyone got a CS01C not yet inserted that they can measure and let me
have the depth of the flange, please?
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 04, 2008
BCF fire extinguishers are still available in the UK from LAS (Light Aero)
in 1Kg and 0.5Kg sizes.
Brian Davies
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Buckley
Sent: 04 September 2008 21:28
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
On my last fire course I was told that Haylon is still available for
aviation use only, so maybe they are available through specialist suppliers?
We still use Haylon on the Embraer 145 for engine and APU extinguishers.
On 04/09/2008, Carl Pattinson wrote:
I may be wrong Danni but I think Halon extinguishers are now no longer
available in the UK anyway (aka BCF bromo chloro fluorethane) because they
are considered harmful to the environment.
Legislation prohibits the sale of halon products from December 31st 2002. -
NO IM NOT WRONG !!! http://www.mfs-fire-extinguishers.co.uk/halon.htm
The only other alternative suitable for aircraft use are dry powder. Water
is unsuitable for aircraft use and too heavy and foam although acceptable is
also too heavy. CO2 is probably the best substitute but again too heavy for
aircraft use.
Halon if you can get it is undoubtedly the best as it is effective against a
wide range of fires and wont damage the aircraft structure, engine or wiring
if used. I have seen all of the above used in real life and used properly
the Halon variety is by far the best - note Halon is extremely toxic in
confined spaces (you wouldnt want to use it in an enclosed cockpit).
We have a Halon extinguisher 3kg but its getting on a bit (it had a twin but
I accidentally set it off in the garage by mistake last week - but at least
it proved the thing worked).
Good luck in your search.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message ----- From: "danny shepherd"
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:58 PM
Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
Hi All,
Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in there
plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the usual
suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this incoming message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 <http://1.5.4.5/>
http://www.iolo.com From: "UVTReith" <uvtreith@t-online.de>
Subject: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Hi all,
Here in Germany is a racing parts supplier www.isa-racing.de
<http://www.isa-racing.de/> . They have fire extinguisher systems with
remote operation systems, so that you can feed one line into the engine
part
and one for the cockpit. Unfortunately I can only open the German
catalogue,
but I guess it's an English company. www.isa-racing.com
<http://www.isa-racing.com/> needs a password.
They do have also a lot of other nice items like aluminium fittings,
fuel
hoses etc. It's worth to check.
Best Regards,
Bruno
-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Duncan &
Ami
McFadyean
Gesendet: Freitag, 1. Januar 1988 00:44
An: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Betreff: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
Ditto mine: Halon and behind-the-passenger-'headrest' mounting position,
which is out of the way, within easy reach and doesn't become a
projectile
in a frontal crash.
BTW, it takes a 10Kg pull to release the 1Kg bottle. So any deceleration
of
-10g in the direction of release will see the extinguisher becoming a
free
agent.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> Hi! Danny
> I have a CFC ?(Believe it was that can't say positively since the
> aircraft is locked away in the trailor , it's not water and not powder
> anyway!) behind the passenger seat head rest and part of the passenger
> drill is to point out where it is .......it gives them lots of
> confidence !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of danny
> shepherd
> Sent: 04 September 2008 16:58
> To: matronics
> Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> Hi All,
> Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have
in
>
> there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at
the
>
> usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
>
> Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Manifold_Pressure_?=
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gauge?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
Ramio,
The Smart Avionics Controller does have an integrated manifold pressure
readout.
So no need to look any further.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>
> I am looking for a very small MAP gauge - digital or analogical.
> Does anybody have a tip?
>
> Ideal would be a CS prop controller WITH integrated gauge
> but there obviously does not exist any.
>
> Raimo from Finland
> OH-XRT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Collings" <r.collings(at)onetel.net>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>
>
>>
>>
>> Carl Hi. Its not a dumb question at all, but one that you will have
>> answered
>> to when you have completed the PPL licence endorsement cause for
>> complexes
>> aircraft, i.e., those fitted with a variable pitch prop!You may already
>> this
>> because of the mono's retractable undercarriage, but a couple of hours
>> spent
>> under instruction in a complex single would be money well spent.
>> Regards Richard
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>> To:
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:00 PM
>> Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a fixed
>> > pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The
>> > engine
>> > is
>> > a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
>> >
>> > The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge is
>> > mandatory. Anyone know why?
>> >
>> > Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of
>> > monitoring
>> > manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more
>> > relevant
>> > to turbocharged engines.
>> >
>> > Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would
>> > guess
>> > the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod required
>> > on
>> > the
>> > engine?
>> >
>> > Thanks for the explanation in advance.
>> >
>> > Carl Pattinson
>> > G-LABS
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________
>> > No viruses found in this outgoing message
>> > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
>> > http://www.iolo.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> 6:02 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this incoming message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jos Okhuisen
Date: Jan 01, 1988
A number of subjects there.
Firstly the non-return valve. Actually, the PFA questioned why I had NOT got
one fitted in the case of the fuel injection system that I had fitted
previously (which circulated fuel back to the tank at a similar rate to the
914 system).
As a poor-man's alternative, I now have the 912 return-line restrictor
located just behind the firewall (because there is a joint in the return
line there and because it creates more unrestricted vapour headspace in the
top of the return line); so, if the return line is severed at a point
forward of the firewall, the restrictor provides at least some restriction
to backflow from the tank; LAA know about this and approved the
installation.
About fire suppression systems: a suggestion to the PFA some years ago to
include a port in the instrument panel and connected to a pipe leading to
the undercowl space (with suitable check valve) in to which a handheld fire
extinguisher could be discharged, met with a positive response. Albeit for
some reason unknown to me, such fire systems have been outlawed on rally
cars.
Regarding the RV that flipped on to its back at Fishburn recently, the pilot
commented that he would have preferred to have had a small 2lb axe to have
been able to get out. It was the rescuers that enabled exit through the
broken canopy. He considered that the small "lifesaver" hammers were a
complete waste of time.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
> Hi! Frans/all
> As a novice I agree with your suggestion on the "check valve" in the
> return line and your impact theory for rubber pipes but the latter item
> would be marginal either way IMHO. The main thing is to apply the
> maximum delay of fuel spreading to the likely fire source at the front
> or under you and an element of chance would apply to either type of
> pipe. This is what has prompted me/many to replace the glass filters
> under the seat for Andair in the fuselage away from the pilot and /or
> have a different sight gauge to one encircling the pilot.
> All such things have to be weight considered otherwise an automatic
> extinguisher system with heavy tankage to supply but I'm sure you don't
> need me to remark on that.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans
> Veldman
> Sent: 03 September 2008 16:52
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jos Okhuisen
>
>
>
> Hi Jos and all,
>
>> Hi Frans and all, The silence is the normal waiting for the
>> investigation to come to a conclusion.
>
> Ok, I understand that. It is just that a few days ago you wrote that you
> were going to post more detailed information the next day, but I never
> saw it, so I wondered what happened. Glad that you are still ok.
>
>> Now a thick branch wiped the right side of the cockpit off, breaking
>> the fuel return alu tube.
>
> Ok, two toughts about that:
>
> 1) The fuel return line is obviously a risk, as it can not be closed
> with the fuel valve, and once broken it allows the tank to drain
> completely. I just realised that this risk can be minimised by putting a
> check-valve (one way valve) in the return line. So fuel can go TO the
> tank, but never FROM the tank. Has anyone ever considered this? I think
> I'm going to put this into my fuel system, unless someone can tell me
> why it is not a good idea to do so.
>
> 2) I have seen that many builders do away with the rubber hoses and use
> aluminium. Maybe the risk is higher with aluminium, since these tubes
> breaks easily, whereas rubber hoses just give way to impacts.
>
> Frans
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Ditto mine: Halon and behind-the-passenger-'headrest' mounting position,
which is out of the way, within easy reach and doesn't become a projectile
in a frontal crash.
BTW, it takes a 10Kg pull to release the 1Kg bottle. So any deceleration of
-10g in the direction of release will see the extinguisher becoming a free
agent.
Duncan McF.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:49 PM
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi! Danny
>> I have a CFC ?(Believe it was that can't say positively since the
>> aircraft is locked away in the trailor , it's not water and not powder
>> anyway!) behind the passenger seat head rest and part of the passenger
>> drill is to point out where it is .......it gives them lots of
>> confidence !
>> Regards
>> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of danny
>> shepherd
>> Sent: 04 September 2008 16:58
>> To: matronics
>> Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>> Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
>>
>> there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
>>
>> usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
>>
>> Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Fowarded from Dave Watts:
Halon fire extinguishers can be bought in the UK from Light Aero Spare
www.lasaero.com
They are expensive but are the only suitable extinguisher for use in the
air.
Dave Watts
G-BXDY
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54(at)charter.net>
Subject: Rough River
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Hi All,
Just to let the rough river goers know, I had originally planned to bring 2
gas cans for you guys to refuel with. Now looks like we'll be riding the
bike. Will check weather.com in the am for a final decision. I think others
had planned to bring some cans anyways. Sorry.
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Seats, engine install underway, some wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 05, 2008
Danny,
The only one to use is Halon. Still available for aircraft use. Mine is
mounted behind the passenger headrest. Go to
http://www.lasaero.com/article/a-bcf-fire.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "danny shepherd" <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:58 PM
Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
> Hi All,
> Can anyone tell me what kind of fire extinguisher they have in
> there plane, and where about did they fit it. I have been looking at the
> usual suppliers, and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should fit.
>
> Cheers Danny G-ceri (getting close to the first flight)
>
>
> --
> Date: 04/09/2008 06:57
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 05, 2008
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
> I may be wrong Danni but I think Halon extinguishers are now no longer
> available in the UK anyway (aka BCF bromo chloro fluorethane) because
> they are considered harmful to the environment.
>
> Legislation prohibits the sale of halon products from December 31st
> 2002. - NO IM NOT WRONG !!!
> http://www.mfs-fire-extinguishers.co.uk/halon.htm
I am afraid you are Karl. BCF (aka Bromochlorodiflouromethane (Halon 1211))
is still permitted for use in aircraft and is exempt from the Montreal
Convention for the immediate future. Using a water/gas extinguisher in the
cockpit would likely be a quick way of creating an electrical fire and a dry
powder one would be likely to put the cockpit in IMC. Halon is the only
sensible answer at the moment.
regards,
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Fw=3A_Fire_extinguishers?
Date: Sep 05, 2008
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
Just a personal opinion but I would have thought that a CO2 extinguisher
would be an acceptable substitute. You can pick up a new 2kg model for about
=A330 on ebay. Weight not ideal but better than nothing I would have
thought.
The problem with all extinguishers is that they are designed to cut off the
oxygen supply to the fire but would also cut off the occupants oxygen
supply. Fact is any extinguisher in the air is going to cause problems.
If there was an engine fire a CO2 extinguisher could be discharged in the
engine bay and would be very effective. In the cockpit is another matter.
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:35 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Fowarded from Dave Watts:
Halon fire extinguishers can be bought in the UK from Light Aero Spare
www.lasaero.com
They are expensive but are the only suitable extinguisher for use in the
air.
Dave Watts
G-BXDY
=========
=========
=========
=========
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Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
_______________________________________
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Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
http://www.iolo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers
I'm following this subject with interest.
I thought that the general consensus is that we try to avoid putting
unneccesary weight in our little aircrafts. How usefull is a fire
extinguisher actually? We are smart enough to only use uncombustible
materials in the cabin, right? We use teflon insulated wire's, right? We
only perform non-smoking-flights, right? So how do people actually
imagine a fire starting in the cabin?
Now I know a risk: the fuel. If your tank starts leaking you have a
potential fire. Actually this is the only risk. But I can't imagine how
to extinguish a fuel fire from a leaking tank with a small 1 or 2Kg fire
extinguisher. In the pictures of Jos' mishap I noticed that the fireman
had to use quite some more powerful stuff to get this fuel fire under
control. On the pictures there was actually more foam than airplane, and
there were still flames visible...
The downside of these little extinguishers is that they bring in quite
some weight, can become a projectile during a crash, that they are
unable to extinguish a fuel fire anyway but suffocate the crew during
the attempt, and that a non fuel fire is extremely unlikely.
For the weight saved you can bring in quite some other safety enhancing
/ survival goodies, for events which are more likely than a non fuel
related fire starting.
Just my 2 cents...
--
Best regards,
Frans Veldman
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CS10 rivet hole positions
From: "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com>
Date: Sep 05, 2008
Hi Rowland,
I'm not far behind you on my (re)build.
The depth of the flange on my CS10C is 12.5mm.
I'm not sure what the mod is that Bob is talking about although the manual and
the packet that my parts came in refers to CS10C / 2 which I would guess is a
revision of that part. Would be worth checking with Europa on that one.
Regards,
Phil
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: CS10 rivet hole positions
>Can't help with your request for dimensions but I'm concerned that you
>have the modified end caps. I recall that there was a mod involved since
>the centre boss was fatiguing somehow
Bob - thanks for your concern. Yes, I do have the modified caps. In
fact, looking at the illustration in the factory newsletter #26 (June
2000) p12 showing old and new, I wouldn't have needed to post this
question if I'd had the old caps as the flange appears to be visible
from outside on the original design.
If no-one can help here with the necessary dimension I'll call the
factory and get them to measure a CS10C, and tell them to amend the
manual.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Re: CS10 rivet hole positions
>The depth of the flange on my CS10C is 12.5mm
Phil - thanks, I really appreciate your help! That will let me get on
with it today instead of waiting until Monday - I wasn't sure if the
non-technical people on duty at the factory today would be able to
find the right part.
[What I'm really waiting for, of course, is for the rain to stop long
enough so I can get the wings out of the trailer and do the stuff in
manual chapter 14 with the spar sockets and bushes on the cockpit
module out on the lawn. Theoretically I'd have room in the garage -
33' long - but surprisingly there is other stuff in there!]
>I'm not sure what the mod is that Bob is talking about although the
>manual and the packet that my parts came in refers to CS10C / 2
>which I would guess is a revision of that part. Would be worth
>checking with Europa on that one
Yes, mine were also CS10C/2; see my reply to Bob for more.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivor Phillips" <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
Date: Sep 05, 2008
They are available from http://www.lasaero.com/article/a-bcf-fire
Regards
Ivor
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
>
>
> I may be wrong Danni but I think Halon extinguishers are now no longer
> available in the UK anyway (aka BCF bromo chloro fluorethane) because
> they are considered harmful to the environment.
>
> Legislation prohibits the sale of halon products from December 31st
> 2002. - NO IM NOT WRONG !!!
> http://www.mfs-fire-extinguishers.co.uk/halon.htm
I am afraid you are Karl. BCF (aka Bromochlorodiflouromethane (Halon
1211))
is still permitted for use in aircraft and is exempt from the Montreal
Convention for the immediate future. Using a water/gas extinguisher in
the
cockpit would likely be a quick way of creating an electrical fire and a
dry
powder one would be likely to put the cockpit in IMC. Halon is the
only
sensible answer at the moment.
regards,
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CS10 rivet hole positions
From: "flyingphil2" <ptiller(at)lolacars.com>
Date: Sep 05, 2008
Hi Rowland,
Ah, yes, I can see the mod now and my end caps are correct. Phew.
No problem with the dimension - I'm 'working from home' today !
Phil
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2008
From: danny shepherd <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Subject: fire extinguishers
Hi All,
Thanks for all the replies. As a matter of interest, is it
mandatory to carry a fire extinguisher? as Frans said, would it be
viable in a fuel fire. If it is mandatory then a Halon it will be.
Cheers Danny G-ceri
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2008
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>The 1/4" holes in the bottom of the stick have no effect on the
>strength of the stick, as it is at the position of the holes
>socketed in to the lower fitting (CS01), which is of much greater
>diameter and with much greater wall thickness.
>
>The steel stick is stronger than the alloy stick. In particular, the
>cranked and welded alloy sticks have virtually no strength, because
>welding removes most of the strength of the 2024 heat-treated alloy
>from which the stick is made.
>
>The greatest forces on the stick will be in the for-aft direction
>e.g either in the situation of a jammed elevator control and
>feet-on-panel to get a decent 'pull', or as a matter of design
>requirement (i.e CS-VLA). That means that any hole in the stick
>should be drilled on the neutral axis in this situation (i.e. on the
>side of the stick) and as far above the point at which the stick
>enters CS01 as is possible.
>
>As regards the size of hole, you could calculate that from the
>proportion of material removed from the, say, a quarter of the
>circumference of the tube. So if you remove half of the
>quarter-of-circumference, then the hole would need to be half way up
>the stick, for no significant effect on strength of the stick. Or
>calculate from CS-VLA what strength you actually need and how much
>material you can remove!
>
>Anyway, why must you insist on a full grommet, when careful
>attention to radiusing of the hole and some extra heatshrink on the
>wires at that point should suffice.
Duncan - thanks for that very full explanation.
My original intention to fit a grommet was simply good electronic
engineering practice. As I said in a reply to Peter Rees, if the hole
edges can be radiused and smoothed, then securing of the wire against
movement both inside and outside would be as good and perhaps even
more satisfactory than a grommet - I just hadn't thought of doing
that!
One thing that might be difficult is ensuring that the inside edge of
the hole is free of sharp edges, particularly if it has to be distant
from the ends of the stick.
As to the position of the hole, it's beginning to sound as though
it's hardly worth considering drilling the CS16, and that a hole
through the CS01 would be safer. From your opening para, I assume
there would be less concern about adding weakness by drilling CS01 -
is that correct?
I'm copying this reply back to the list as Duncan's reply came only
to me (instead of to the list), and I think the points he raises are
worth publicising.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Date: Sep 05, 2008
Find A Sport Aviation February 2008 and look pages 98-99.
Dana Heimos EAAA 834980 writes as follows:
- The FAA and NFPA strongly recommend the use of portable Halon fire
extinguishers in all aircraft
- dry chemical no no because IMC occurs and it is higly corrosive and
detrimental to electronics
- CO2 no no because cold-shock and restrict oxygen levels
- water no no because there is a risk of being electrocuted if used on
el. equipment
- Halon
1) does not restrict visibility
2) won=B4t damage electrics
3) is low toxicity (!!!)
4) is chemically stable and totally safe for human
5) does not displace oxygen from the air
6) is perfectly legal for aviation use
There are two types: 1211-1301 blend and pure 1211,
an alternative is Halotron 1. Halotron is ozone friendly but
unfortunately twice as large and heavy as liked-rated Halon.
For me personally I have fire extinguisher onboard mainly
if something happen on the ground for my plane or neigbour=B4s one.
Probably during refueling.
It is not easy to imagine cocpit fire situation airborne but if that
occurs,
pilot would be happy if he has Halon. About 20 years ago one
2-engine Piper=B4s cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel
line
got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher
and elected to jump out as a living torch. Same could happen to
Europa=B4s tube type fuel gauge. It is in the cockpit like are those
fuel
breathing lines also. I would be happy if they all were outside.
Let=B4s imagine you find some fresh fuel smell during flight.
Maybe your right leg or right hand also get wet about fuel.
***What we should do in this situation? ***
Immediately landing of course.
With electrics of or not? If you elect to switch off, there can be
in that moment a fateful spark during switching off.
Raimo from Finland
OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Pattinson
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:29 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Just a personal opinion but I would have thought that a CO2
extinguisher would be an acceptable substitute. You can pick up a new
2kg model for about =A330 on ebay. Weight not ideal but better than
nothing I would have thought.
The problem with all extinguishers is that they are designed to cut
off the oxygen supply to the fire but would also cut off the occupants
oxygen supply. Fact is any extinguisher in the air is going to cause
problems.
If there was an engine fire a CO2 extinguisher could be discharged in
the engine bay and would be very effective. In the cockpit is another
matter.
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:35 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Fowarded from Dave Watts:
Halon fire extinguishers can be bought in the UK from Light Aero
Spare www.lasaero.com
They are expensive but are the only suitable extinguisher for use in
the air.
Dave Watts
G-BXDY
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Harrison <willie.harrison(at)tinyonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Date: Sep 04, 2008
Sorry, that was meant to read "..a design/template they could share.."
On 4 Sep 2008, at 15:08, Rowland & Wilma Carson wrote:
>
>
>
>> Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?
>
> Willie - Tim Ward, a regular poster on this list, sells nice
> leather ones made by a leatherworker in NZ, and supplies them
> worldwide.
>
>> Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?
>
> Not sure how that would work .... Mine are not in service yet, but
> I'm planning to keep them fitted once they're on!
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
> | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
> | 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fw: Fire extinguishers
From: "josok" <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>
Date: Sep 05, 2008
Hi Frans and all,
I had a light, i think it was 500 gr halon extinguisher under my right hand, just
behind the P2 headrest. It would have been a costly mistake to try to put out
the fire, even as small as it was in the beginning. It would have been handy
though to extingwish my jeans, once outside.I think i heard it explode real
quickly though. Just for the record the order of the blaze: Saw fuel from the
return line on the right of the cockpit. The emergency landing drill made me
first switch off power, and a fracton of a second later, when i was allready leaving
the wreck, the fuel ignited. The fire quickly became larger, probably heated
the main fuel tank, and then starded blazing like it was turbocharged. Probably
the tank outlets had blown off. I don't hink that any build method or
improvement could have prevented fuel getting out and or the fire. Most likely
the fuel tank was still in one piece, and it looks from pictures i saw that also
the long range tank survived. Since we can't fly
on water, there will always be a risk. If you search to eliminate all risk, you
will end up with something that does nor fly anymore. The Europa, as designed,
is a safe plane. The rest is risk management. The major risk is stall-spin
related. After that the risk of fire is non significant. The Europa is still very
controllable at near to stall speeds.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell(at)etb.net.co>
Subject: tie bar/W34 holes
Date: Sep 05, 2008
I am just about to drill the tie bar/W34 rear wing attachment assembly.
Anyone got any tips for drilling the holes vertical?
Thanks
Will
Checked by AVG.
17:29
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Classic stall characteristics
From: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl>
Date: Sep 05, 2008
As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to buy a
Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that was converted
into a Tri-Gear back in 1998.
Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, I've
come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when stalling.
It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building the Classic wings,
it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100%
symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of
course!).
Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: except
for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe altitude
in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a specific Classic might
have a nasty wing-drop when stalling?
And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just every
now and again?
Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in cruise and
level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of stall-strips or a tendency
to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect indicators'. Or is this
way of thinking a stupid one?
Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!
Marcel
(PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well above
stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do :wink:)
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Hello Raimo,
> For me personally I have fire extinguisher onboard mainly
> if something happen on the ground for my plane or neigbours one.
If it is for on the ground, CO2 would be fine.
> It is not easy to imagine cocpit fire situation airborne but if that occurs,
> pilot would be happy if he has Halon.
I don't think so. Your main objective is getting down, as fast as
possible. Fruitless attempts to extinguish the fire and partly choking
yourself is not compatible with preparing an emergency landing.
About your example:
> About 20 years ago one
> 2-engine Pipers cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel line
> got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher
> and elected to jump out as a living torch.
Suppose he had Halon, and then? You can maybe extinguish this fire, but
after that the pilot is still soaked with fuel. There was something that
ignited this fuel, and this something is still there. The fuel is also
still there. After the Halon is gone, the situation is likely to repeat
again, but this time without the Halon.
> Same could happen to
> Europas tube type fuel gauge. It is in the cockpit like are those fuel
> breathing lines also. I would be happy if they all were outside.
So, work on that! I have immediately abandoned the idea of using this
sight tube. Instead, I have a fuel flow sensor (also good to detect
leaks while airborne), and two separate fuel level sensors. I use a
one-way valve for the fuel return line, and have the tankvent arranged
in such a way that it won't leak fuel, neither upright or inverted. The
whole filter and fuel pump assembly is mounted in a sealed box, vented
to the outside. If one of these dozen jubilee clibs or tee's start
leaking, it is not going to make it into the cabin. I can't eliminate
all the risks, but at least minimize them, and make all situations where
Halon could be of any use most unlikely. If the tank splits wide open,
well, can't take away that risk, but then again the Halon would be
useless in that situation.
> Lets imagine you find some fresh fuel smell during flight.
> Maybe your right leg or right hand also get wet about fuel.
>
> ***What we should do in this situation? ***
>
> Immediately landing of course.
> With electrics of or not? If you elect to switch off, there can be
> in that moment a fateful spark during switching off.
If you have your system setup properly, there won't be a spark due to
the switch off. The soleonid should be sealed by itself. The control
current is small, and by using a diode over the soleonid, and a small
condensator over the switch, you won't get a spark. You will get a spark
though if you leave the master switch on, and the landing is a little
bit rough. Probably before that time you will get a spark from your trim
motor, flaps, or various other little electrical critters on board.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers
josok wrote:
Hi Jos,
> If you search to eliminate all risk, you will end up with
> something that does nor fly anymore.
I search to minimise the risk. Not eliminate, but minimize. So I will
still fly, but without non closeable fuel sight leaking sources around
me, and with no other fuel paths (and potential leaks) than what is
really necessary to keep the engine running.
I understand this is a sensitive topic for you. By no means I want to
suggest that you should have build or act differently than you did. But
of course, an "event" like yours reminds us about the risks of fire. I
think it is no coincidence that we currently see discussions about
Halon, one way fuel valve's, etc. The positive thing is that we are now
looking how to minimize the risk. Personally, I never thought about
installing a one-way valve in the fuel return line, until reading about
your accident. Your accident may one day save my life.
> The Europa, as designed, is a
> safe plane. The rest is risk management.
When I started building my Europa, I went through a lot of builders
archives, to see how other people built their Europa, and to pick up
good ideas. Later I started reading the forum. I became quite shocked
when I read that some of the people who were an example for me are no
longer with us. I had been digging through all your build pictures too,
and then some time later you became involved in an accident as well. It
might be true that the Europa is a safe plane, but every accident is one
too much. The builders archives are good for inspiration, but the
accident archives are good for enhancing safety. Both are valuable
sources to improve your plane.
BTW, how are you doing? Are you recovering well?
--
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2008
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Subject: Re: Classic stall characteristics
> Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa
> owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really
> nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is
> mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to
> impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical
> (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of
> course!).
The classic has less wash-out I believe. So the wings stall more abruptly.
--
Frans