GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject:
Re: Gumpy visits Wales (& there be dragons Kevin)
Was in Roger Mill's Classic RH seat once over the hills of Derbyshire, we n
oticed it was waving.-=0AWe cruised about for ten minutes, throttle close
d, 100kts and going up. Silky smooth too.=0AYou just need to understand the
sky. One of the great pleasures in life. Especially later life !:-o=0AGrah
am=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: graeme bird <graeme@gd
bmk.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 30 June 2013, 1
6:11=0ASubject: Europa-List: Gumpy visits Wales (& there be dragons Kevin)
.uk>=0A=0ASome great views yesterday approaching Welshpool over Church Stre
tton, Long Mynd and then west to the coast at Aberdovey. Turned back before
Talybont - anyone landed there?=0A=0ALook you though; there were hills, an
d clouds.=0A=0ABeen thinking about the stopping the prop discussion. Glider
s also like the hills, threatening clouds and thermal weather. Things we po
wer pilots all seem to shy away from.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY
=0AMono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W=0ANewby: 75 hours 18 months =0Ag(a
t)gdbmk.co.uk=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403650#403650=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAttachments:
=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc03443_1_145.jpg=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_
-========================
==============
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date:
Jun 30, 2013
Hi Graham.
I understand a little in what you a saying.
In the tail slip the wing is falling backwards to normal flight condition.
The pin would stop the wing from pulling out.
But in normal level flight i see this bar in compression.
At this moment in time, i just can not see how you would get a forward force.
I find Europa.s notes mentioning words like "tie bar",
but i find many of Europa,s notes not to clear as to exactly what the situation
is.
I think this bar is say, in compression 90% of the time and 10% in tension some
of the time, hence the pin.
But what the hell do i know, but im not giving up yet.
Need a little micro transducer between the front wing root to see which the bios
is.
Best Regards.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403665#403665
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Hi Alan.
A few comments,
1, wings that have been demonstrated to fly OK for many thousands of hours
do not usualy fail in normal flight , it should only happen in extreme
circumstances so forget about your 1 "G" straight and level situation.
2, your comments about the WW2 bomber do not demonstrate failure due to
aerodynamic loading., During the bomb release phase of flight it would be
in 1"G" straight and level flight. the failure occurred because the
fuselage holding the wings apart was removed allowing them to react as you
describe.
3, there are lots of things in life I do not understand like high energy
physics and brain surgery but when people who know about these things try
and explain to me I try to listen and learn. you seem to have rejected all
the explanations put forward by knowledgeable contributors to this forum.
So when you find the answer from other sources please let us know the
outcome so that we can all learn something.
4, If a Cessna 150 was over stressed in a high "G" maneuver to the extent
that the mainplanes failed they would also fold forwards and upwards
probably outboard of the struts..
Tim
On 1 July 2013 01:01, Alan Carter wrote:
> >
>
> Hi Graham.
> I understand a little in what you a saying.
> In the tail slip the wing is falling backwards to normal flight condition.
> The pin would stop the wing from pulling out.
>
> But in normal level flight i see this bar in compression.
> At this moment in time, i just can not see how you would get a forward
> force.
>
> I find Europa.s notes mentioning words like "tie bar",
> but i find many of Europa,s notes not to clear as to exactly what the
> situation is.
>
> I think this bar is say, in compression 90% of the time and 10% in tension
> some of the time, hence the pin.
> But what the hell do i know, but im not giving up yet.
>
> Need a little micro transducer between the front wing root to see which
> the bios is.
>
> Best Regards.
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403665#403665
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject:
Gumpy visits Wales (& there be dragons Kevin)
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Talybont used to be owned by Bill Wynn, one of our first Europa builders and
past Europa Club chairman (for many years).
There was always a welcome for Europa owners wanting to drop in for a cup of
tea and a chat.
Don't have his contact details any more but might be in Pooleys or the farm
strip guide.
Many in the Europa community knew Bill well and may still be in contact.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird
Sent: 30 June 2013 16:11
Subject: Europa-List: Gumpy visits Wales (& there be dragons Kevin)
Some great views yesterday approaching Welshpool over Church Stretton, Long
Mynd and then west to the coast at Aberdovey. Turned back before Talybont -
anyone landed there?
Look you though; there were hills, and clouds.
Been thinking about the stopping the prop discussion. Gliders also like the
hills, threatening clouds and thermal weather. Things we power pilots all
seem to shy away from.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403650#403650
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc03443_1_145.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Roger Sheridan <rogersheridan(at)gmail.com>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Surely in gliding flight the wings must be pulling the fuselage
forwards..........otherwise you would stop!
On 1 Jul 2013, at 08:55, houlihan wrote:
> Hi Alan.
>
> A few comments,
> 1, wings that have been demonstrated to fly OK for many thousands of
hours do not usualy fail in normal flight , it should only happen in
extreme circumstances so forget about your 1 "G" straight and level
situation.
>
> 2, your comments about the WW2 bomber do not demonstrate failure due
to aerodynamic loading., During the bomb release phase of flight it
would be in 1"G" straight and level flight. the failure occurred because
the fuselage holding the wings apart was removed allowing them to react
as you describe.
>
> 3, there are lots of things in life I do not understand like high
energy physics and brain surgery but when people who know about these
things try and explain to me I try to listen and learn. you seem to have
rejected all the explanations put forward by knowledgeable contributors
to this forum. So when you find the answer from other sources please
let us know the outcome so that we can all learn something.
>
> 4, If a Cessna 150 was over stressed in a high "G" maneuver to the
extent that the mainplanes failed they would also fold forwards and
upwards probably outboard of the struts..
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 1 July 2013 01:01, Alan Carter wrote:
>
> Hi Graham.
> I understand a little in what you a saying.
> In the tail slip the wing is falling backwards to normal flight
condition.
> The pin would stop the wing from pulling out.
>
> But in normal level flight i see this bar in compression.
> At this moment in time, i just can not see how you would get a forward
force.
>
> I find Europa.s notes mentioning words like "tie bar",
> but i find many of Europa,s notes not to clear as to exactly what the
situation is.
>
> I think this bar is say, in compression 90% of the time and 10% in
tension some of the time, hence the pin.
> But what the hell do i know, but im not giving up yet.
>
> Need a little micro transducer between the front wing root to see
which the bios is.
>
> Best Regards.
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403665#403665
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Hi Bob.
Thats seem,s reasonable , and a windmill goes round,
So dose that mean a wing in flight is contributing or generating forward thrust.
Tim.
What you are saying to me, is, i don,t have the right to ask questions or challenge
a reply. I accept there a fare more knowledgeable contributors than me on
the forum. But i am still part of it and have the right to reply and ask, why
or how dose this occur.
I accept wings don,t fall off in normal flight, and this pin is probably for abnormal
flight conditions, But if you go back to the beginning of this topic, it
indicated to me the in level flight the wing provided some forward force, ie
helping the propeller to pull the plane alone.
Maybe it does , as Bob said about the glider, so this bar is in tension all the
time if in the glide.
or may be its in tension only some of the time,
I don,t know,
Regard .
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403683#403683
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"richard" <rcollings(at)talktalk.net>
Subject:
Re: where to locate fuel pressure sensor
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Hi Rowland
I along with most agree that the eye watering prices charged for Rotax parts
is scandalous but here I am sure you have asked for the wrong part . However
if you would like it I can copy my fuel system layout and send it to you , I
have completed 45hrs to date with no problems, if you do then contact me off
line at rcollings(at)talktalk.net .
Regards Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: Rowland Carson
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: where to locate fuel pressure sensor
On 13 Jun 2013, at 12:13, richard wrote:
> new rotax engines are supplied with just such a manifold, contact Conair
> for a price
Richard - I spoke with Conair and although I wasn't able to identify _all_
the part numbers for the fuel manifold, the total for those I found came to
578.55 sterling so I think I will be seeking cheaper options!
> For what its worth I modified the fuel pipe runs, dispensing with the
> rubber pipes in favour of proper aircraft aluminium see Mod No 13304
Where can I find info on Mod 13304? It doesn't appear on the LAA website
anywhere I can find. I checked the list of all prototype mods (which only
shows up to Mod 12403 for Europas) and the list of Standard Mods for
Europas.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"richard" <rcollings(at)talktalk.net>
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Hi Frans
I suggest you contact LAA and ask them for a copy of Mod 10602 which Ian
Rickard had approved. This mod introduces a flange plate and seal assembly
into the top of the tank. The important thing is that the flange seal is on
the inside of the tank so no fuel contacts the out side or the cut edge.
Hope this helps
Regards Richard
Europa xs Tri-gear 45hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: Frans Veldman
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 2:36 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank sensor opening problem
Dear friends,
In my fuel tank I have cut two small openings for fuel sensors. Serious
fuel leaks started to develop, so I have removed the sensors to have a look.
What I discovered is that in the area around the cut outs the tank wall
has become swollen and seriously distorted.
I remember some discussion on this forum about the treatment the fuel
tank received, that this treatment was only on the surface and once you
cut a hole in the tank the fuel can reach the unprotected material. I
tank mogas and the ethanol in it doesn't help either.
The question is now, what should I do? Is there any way to rescue the
affected material, or should I cut it out?
If I cut out the area, I have a new cut and will face the same problem
but on a larger scale, unless there is some way to treat the newly cut
opening. If I make a new cut, how can I prevent it from happening again?
Of course, replacement of the fuel tank is something I want to avoid at
all costs (and even then, I want to have fuel sensors in the new tank so
I will have to deal with the same problem anyway).
Is there any quick fix possible? This is the flying saison and I don't
want to spoil it if there is a way to postpone a more long lasting
repair until the winter.
Thanks in advance for some great ideas,
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
This has been an interesting discussion, but it appears to me that it got
off-track somewhere because "forward" has two meanings (see the attached
illustrations):
(i) The LIFT does not have a "forward" component, under any
circumstances, if FORWARD means the direction of the aircraft's flight.
Reason: LIFT is by definition always perpendicular to the direction of
flight, as DRAG is always opposite to the direction of flight (i.e.
perpendicular to the LIFT).
(ii) If, however, one refers to FORWARD as the direction of
the aircrafts centerline, then LIFT has a "forward" component as soon as the
centerline points up at the nose relative to the direction of flight. The
higher the nose points up, the greater this forward component is. At some
point it may, as I read the discussion, become larger than the wing DRAG's
component parallel to the centerline in the opposite direction, giving a net
"forward" force on the wing.
(iii) The LIFT does not contribute, under any circumstances,
to moving the aircraft forward through the air, as there is no lift
component parallel to the direction of flight. A glider is "propelled" by
the forward - in the direction of flight - component of the aircraft's
WEIGHT only.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
On Jul 1, 2013, at 6:53 AM, richard wrote:
> Hi Frans
> I suggest you contact LAA and ask them for a copy of Mod 10602 which
Ian Rickard had approved. This mod introduces a flange plate and seal
assembly into the top of the tank. The important thing is that the
flange seal is on the inside of the tank so no fuel contacts the out
side or the cut edge. Hope this helps
> Regards Richard
> Europa xs Tri-gear 45hrs
All,
Though still just a the builder, I'm following this topic w/ keen
interest and full sympathy for flyers who are experiencing fuel tank
leaks and deformation. When I read about the introduction of tank mods
such as #10602, am I correct in assuming that work of this nature is
done AFTER slicing off the top of the CM, say, 1/2 inch down from the
top flat surface?...or perhaps after slicing off one of the head rests,
say 1/2 inch up from the top flat surface of the CM?
Also...long ago I installed the Europa capacitance fuel gauge PRIOR to
installing the tank in the CM. (At the time I was astounded to read the
instructions' claim that it is possible to install the gauge AFTER
installing the CM by working thru the access hole in the side of the
head rest...I salute anyone who managed to do that!)
If I recall correctly, the installation included an internal flange
plate which I now surmise should prevent fuel contacting the cut
edge...much appreciation if anyone can confirm this.
Fred
A-194
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
From:
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
On 07/01/2013 04:21 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> This has been an interesting discussion, but it appears to me that it
> got off-track somewhere because "forward" has two meanings (see the
> attached illustrations):
How does an autogyro (autocopter?) work? What is causing the blades to
move forward?
> A glider is
> propelled by the forward in the direction of flight component of
> the aircrafts WEIGHT only.
Ok, got it. But without wings (but still with the majority of the
weight) will the glider still be propelled forwards? I guess not.
Then what exactly is exercising a forward pulling force on the glider's
fuselage? The fuselage has only drag. So something must be pulling it
forward.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
From:
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank sensor opening problem
On 07/01/2013 04:29 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
> If I recall correctly, the installation included an internal flange
> plate which I now surmise should prevent fuel contacting the cut
> edge...much appreciation if anyone can confirm this.
I did not have the internal flange. I just riveted 5 anchor nuts to the
tank and assumed this would be plenty for such a small surface.
Well, it is not. I now have made an internal flange myself and hope that
with the tank wall locked in between the sensor cap and internal flange
that it won't leak anymore. Still the fuel can access the cut line but
as this has already happened I'm not sure whether it makes sense to seal
it now. Also, you need 5 holes through the tank wall to attach the whole
thing, making it even harder to achieve a leak free fit.
So, I will leave it as is and if it doesn't leak anymore I'm happy with it.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
From:
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
Good point Svein=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A
From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no>=0ATo: europa-li
st(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 1 July 2013, 15:21=0ASubject: SV: Europa-
List: Re: wing lift/drag pins=0A =0A=0A=0AThis has been an interesting disc
ussion, but it appears to me that it got off-track somewhere because "forwa
rd" has two meanings (see the attached illustrations):=0A=C2-=0A(i)=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2- The LIFT does not have a =9Cforward=9D co
mponent, under any circumstances, if FORWARD means the direction of the air
craft=99s flight.=C2- Reason:=C2- LIFT is by definition always pe
rpendicular to the direction of flight, as DRAG is always opposite to the d
irection of flight (i.e. perpendicular to the LIFT).=0A=C2-=0A(ii)=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2- If, however, one refers to FORWARD as the direction of the aircra
fts centerline, then LIFT has a =9Cforward=9D component as soon
as the centerline points up at the nose relative to the direction of fligh
t.=C2- The higher the nose points up, the greater this forward component
is.=C2- At some point it may, as I read the discussion, become larger tha
n the wing DRAG=99s component parallel to the centerline in the oppos
ite direction, giving a net =9Cforward=9D force on the wing.=0A
=C2-=0A(iii)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- The LIFT does not contribute, under any circumstan
ces, to moving the aircraft forward through the air, as there is no lift co
mponent parallel to the direction of flight.=C2- A glider is =9Cpro
pelled=9D by the forward =93 in the direction of flight
=93 component of the aircraft=99s WEIGHT only.=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0ARe
gards,=0ASvein=0ALN-SKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net>
Subject:
Fuel tank sensor opening problem
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Hi! Fred
My oval hole cut in the tank top is protected by the plate internally and a
silicone seal round the edges and I have had no problems of the swelling
kind except I had a leak once from the pressure "head" by leaving a column
of fuel right up the "cobra" filler over night . Better attention to the
silicone casket and more intelligent filling seem to have prevented a
repeat. No one advised me to ensure that the cut edge should be kept free
from fuel contact. However early tanks had to have fuel stored and so be
encouraged to " swell" prior to installation into the fuselage/cockpit
module over a period of many weeks restrained by a strong frame surrounding
it. So movement can be expected but by arranging suitable clamps and tight
fixings I would have thought would restrain the swelling anyway. My Kit No
is 337 but I know that a number of builders have suffered split tanks . I
believe likely caused by letting the tank dry out after the impregnation by
fuel . Keep fuel in and such swelling stays stable. (I think !)
Regards to all in strife !
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 01 July 2013 15:29
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank sensor opening problem
On Jul 1, 2013, at 6:53 AM, richard wrote:
Hi Frans
I suggest you contact LAA and ask them for a copy of Mod 10602 which Ian
Rickard had approved. This mod introduces a flange plate and seal assembly
into the top of the tank. The important thing is that the flange seal is on
the inside of the tank so no fuel contacts the out side or the cut edge.
Hope this helps
Regards Richard
Europa xs Tri-gear 45hrs
All,
Though still just a the builder, I'm following this topic w/ keen interest
and full sympathy for flyers who are experiencing fuel tank leaks and
deformation. When I read about the introduction of tank mods such as #10602,
am I correct in assuming that work of this nature is done AFTER slicing off
the top of the CM, say, 1/2 inch down from the top flat surface?...or
perhaps after slicing off one of the head rests, say 1/2 inch up from the
top flat surface of the CM?
Also...long ago I installed the Europa capacitance fuel gauge PRIOR to
installing the tank in the CM. (At the time I was astounded to read the
instructions' claim that it is possible to install the gauge AFTER
installing the CM by working thru the access hole in the side of the head
rest...I salute anyone who managed to do that!)
If I recall correctly, the installation included an internal flange plate
which I now surmise should prevent fuel contacting the cut edge...much
appreciation if anyone can confirm this.
Fred
A-194
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
From:
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
On 07/01/2013 11:41 AM, Alan Carter wrote:
> I don,t know,
Just assume your wings fall off. What is your fuselage going to do? It
will fall straight down after the short moment it looses its forward speed.
Now keep the wings attached. Switch off the engine. Where is the
fuselage going? It moves forward and keeps on moving forward. As the
fuselage has drag, why is it moving forward against the drag? Who is
pulling it?
Is the connecting bar between the two rear sockets under compression or
unter tension?
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Frans,
Our postings are crossing a little, but I think the below covers also your
last one:
>
> How does an autogyro (autocopter?) work? What is causing the blades to
> move forward?
>
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogiro
> > A glider is
> > "propelled" by the forward - in the direction of flight - component of
> > the aircraft's WEIGHT only.
>
> Ok, got it. But without wings (but still with the majority of the
> weight) will the glider still be propelled forwards? I guess not.
Again: What is meant by "forward"? Without wings, the glider will still be
propelled forwards, and still by gravitational force. Unfortunately for the
pilot, however, "forward" now means more or less vertical towards the ground
..........
> Then what exactly is exercising a forward pulling force on the glider's
> fuselage? The fuselage has only drag. So something must be pulling it
> forward.
>
I may be stating the obvious, but a glider is always going down, or rather
gliding down - down relative to the air mass through which it moves. If the
air mass is moving upwards (thermals) faster than the glider moves downwards
through that air mass, the glider climbs relative to the ground even though
it goes down relative to the air mass. All the time, it is the gravity that
causes it to move, and movement through the air creates lift (if the wings
are still on), so that the glider does not fall like a stone through the
surrounding air mass. When the total drag on the glider equals the
gravity's component in the direction of flight, the glider does not
accelerate any more, it has reached constant speed.
Same thing with an airplane with engine, if the engine quits. As long as
the engine works, though, and we fly level, the engine gives enough pull to
equal the total drag, so that we don't need any assistance by the gravity to
create speed. At level flight, the lift and the down force by the
stabilizer are vertical. Gravity is always vertical. I.e. no fore-or-aft
force component from any of these three forces. Only drag, which equals
propeller pull at constant speed.
Regards,
Svein
________________________________________________________________________________
In my most recent posting, I wrote:
"...a glider is always going down, or rather gliding down - down relative to
the air mass through which it moves". The exception is of course if using
the mass inertia of the glider for a short-duration movement up through the
air. This is when the in-the-direction-of-the-centerline forward force on
the wing may exceed the opposite-direction wing drag component, and the
cross tie bar comes under tension, not compression.
Regards,
Svein
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
> > A glider is
> > "propelled" by the forward - in the direction
> > of flight - component of
> > the aircraft's WEIGHT only.
And thats why they (gliders) obviously fill also
sometimes their watertanks - to get more load, to
feed gravity and to get speed?
Cheers, Raimo
-----Alkuperinen viesti-----
From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 6:24 PM
Subject: SV: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag
pins
Johnsen"
Frans,
Our postings are crossing a little, but I think
the below covers also your
last one:
>
> How does an autogyro (autocopter?) work? What is
> causing the blades to
> move forward?
>
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogiro
> > A glider is
> > "propelled" by the forward - in the direction
> > of flight - component of
> > the aircraft's WEIGHT only.
>
> Ok, got it. But without wings (but still with
> the majority of the
> weight) will the glider still be propelled
> forwards? I guess not.
Again: What is meant by "forward"? Without
wings, the glider will still be
propelled forwards, and still by gravitational
force. Unfortunately for the
pilot, however, "forward" now means more or less
vertical towards the ground
..........
> Then what exactly is exercising a forward
> pulling force on the glider's
> fuselage? The fuselage has only drag. So
> something must be pulling it
> forward.
>
I may be stating the obvious, but a glider is
always going down, or rather
gliding down - down relative to the air mass
through which it moves. If the
air mass is moving upwards (thermals) faster than
the glider moves downwards
through that air mass, the glider climbs relative
to the ground even though
it goes down relative to the air mass. All the
time, it is the gravity that
causes it to move, and movement through the air
creates lift (if the wings
are still on), so that the glider does not fall
like a stone through the
surrounding air mass. When the total drag on the
glider equals the
gravity's component in the direction of flight,
the glider does not
accelerate any more, it has reached constant
speed.
Same thing with an airplane with engine, if the
engine quits. As long as
the engine works, though, and we fly level, the
engine gives enough pull to
equal the total drag, so that we don't need any
assistance by the gravity to
create speed. At level flight, the lift and the
down force by the
stabilizer are vertical. Gravity is always
vertical. I.e. no fore-or-aft
force component from any of these three forces.
Only drag, which equals
propeller pull at constant speed.
Regards,
Svein
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Un/Subscription,
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________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
From:
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
On 07/01/2013 05:24 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
>> Then what exactly is exercising a forward pulling force on the glider's
>> fuselage? The fuselage has only drag. So something must be pulling it
>> forward.
>>
> I may be stating the obvious, but a glider is always going down,
I guess it is also obvious that it is going down much quicker without
the wings, and with less forward velocity.
So the question remains, if the fuselage without wings has a lower
forward speed than a fuselage with wings, can't we just say that this
means that the wings are pulling the fuselage forwards? No way that the
fuselage itself will maintain a forward speed of 100 knots or so, the
drag is quite substantial, so something is pulling it forward against
the drag. And in the few examples where the wings detached during
flight, it is indeed observed that the wings fold forwards.
The wings MUST BE pulling the fuselage forwards, because the fuselage
would never do this by itself. I can't see how one could argue against that.
> All the time, it is the gravity that
> causes it to move,
Yes, gravity is providing the energy that makes it happen. No doubt
about that. But this is something else than saying that the wings play
no role in it. Sure the wings play a role in it: they counter partly the
gravity and redirect the energy to propel the aircraft forward.
> Same thing with an airplane with engine, if the engine quits. As long as
> the engine works, though, and we fly level, the engine gives enough pull to
> equal the total drag,
The engine provides extra energy, so we don't loose altitude while
"going down".
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
> > > A glider is
> > > "propelled" by the forward - in the direction of flight - component
> > > of the aircraft's WEIGHT only.
>
> And thats why they (gliders) obviously fill also sometimes their
watertanks -
> to get more load, to feed gravity and to get speed?
>
> Cheers, Raimo
>
Yes, Raimo, that is one of the main reasons for the water ballast. At the
same glide ratio, you get higher speed with than without ballast.
Just look at the bottom illustration in my first e-mail: Higher weight
gives larger gravity component in direction of flight at the same angle of
flight vs. horizontal. Larger pulling force gives higher speed - the glider
accelerates until the higher pulling force equals the increasing drag.
Higher speed gives higher lift (square of speed increase) to carry the
higher weight, so that you can maintain the glide ratio (direction of flight
vs. horizontal).
Regards,
Svein
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Water ballast
From:
andrew cullum <asc23111964(at)hotmail.co.uk>
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Yes Raimo,
You are correct,the water ballast actually increases the gliders "inertia",
and as a consequence,the glide angle is better at higher speeds.
The trade off of course is poorer climb
Performance in lift,but on good days,
The advantage of carrying water out-weighs this.
However pilots may find they have to
Dump some or all of their water to climb
And get home if soaring conditions get
Worse.
Best Regards
Andy Cullum.
Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Hello Frans.
Who is pulling it. Gravity
It will move is an arc towards the ground.
A wing is similar to a sail on a sailing boat.
You can not sail directly into wind you can get to about 30 degrees of it.
Sorry Frans but at the moment i am still puzzled.
At the moment i am thinking this bar has three purposes,
1. to prevent the drag pulling the wing back, which is most of the time.
2. two provide the rigidity to the structure so keeping the front pin locked into
its mounting.
3. to stop the wing coming "forwards" in abnormal wing loadings,
Possible very high A/A, near the stall, or gusts, or abnormal flight attitudes.
This puts this bar in compression , tension and neutral loads
But i am willing to change my mind,as i have used up ask a friend, may be its time
to ask the audience,
Regards .
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403725#403725
________________________________________________________________________________
Frans,
The forces are as illustrated in my first posting.
If you throttle back the engine, all properly designed and built aircraft
automatically pitches down to gain speed. The pitch-down is of course the
result of the stabilizer's design and angle of incidence vs. the wings' .
Why gain speed: To give required lift.
To get enough speed to give the required lift, the pulling force must be
kept up. Lost propeller thrust must be compensated by something. As lift
CANNOT give force in the direction of flight (remember, BY DEFINTION it is
perpendicular to the direction of flight, thus it has no forwards nor
backwards component flight-direction-wise).
What is this "something" force that compensates for engine power? Look at
the bottom illustration in my first posting: To create a forward force
(forward meaning in the direction of flight) to maintain speed to maintain
lift, the only possible force available is the gravity's flight-direction
component. The steeper the pitch-down, the larger this force becomes, and
the faster down you fly. This creates more lift (perpendicular to the
flight direction), of course, but the vertical component of the lift remains
the same - equal to the weight of the aircraft plus the vertical component
of the downward stab. force.
The gravity component acts on every atom in the structure's molecules, but
we commonly consider them all grouped together at what we refer to as the
center of gravity (CG), and uses this as point as the one common point where
the total pulling force acts. Neither the fuselage nor the wings pull the
aircraft forward, good ol' gravity does it all by itself!
Do this, Frans: Shake off all your conceptions. Look ONLY at my
illustrations. The global airplane forces are actually this simple.
Alan,
Right on!
Regards,
Svein
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
"rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Hi Group
I have been following this thread with interest.
I have been picking the brain of an ex Grumman X-29 FSW lead wind tunnel engineer
as far as our Europa wings trying to move fore or aft, and all I know at the
moment (pun intended) is how much I don't know.
He asked a few pointed questions about the Europa, can you help me out with answering
them?:
**** What percent chord is the main spar at?
**** What wing section does the aircraft use?
**** What is the relationship (distance) between the main spar and the aft fitting?
Once I provide him with these details, he will come back with his take on the subject.
I will post his answer along with other comments he has made already.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
BTW Frans, I have always thought of a Gyrocopter as an aeroplane with a big pancake
of a wing above you. When you spin up the blades, they don't allow much in
the way of airflow through the spinning blades. Think of a big disk you put
at a positive angle of attack above you. Kinda neat concept, not very efficient,
takes a lot of pushing energy to keep your rotors spinning up to make it act
like a solid disc.
Here is an E-Mail I sent:
Hey Guyz
A Europa member was trying to explain to another member why at high angles of attack
the wings want to sweep forward.
There are other members that tried to explain in words, one just said well, it's
the same reason why a Gyrocopter rotor spins in the direction that it does which
with little thought seems to be spinning in the wrong direction.
Attached is a diagram that is a pretty good visualization.
Ron P.
Here's his reply:
No its not (a good visualization)
You have to apply real numbers to those phoney scalers on that figure.
At high AOA the drag is significantly higher than shown, but lift not so much so.
This would pull the L/D resultant much father aft.
Those two plots are implying that the L/D of a wing is the same at cruise and at
high AOA which we all KNOW is not true! (the reason you never fly a high performance
sailplane near Cl Max!)
There is one good reason for putting fwd sweep in a wing planform. It allows less
use of washout to keep the tip from stalling. If the wing is swept TOO far
fwd, the twist actually reverses! The root must be a lower AOA than the tip,
sometimes by a lot.
The biggest DISADVATAGE to FSW planform wings is structural divergence. Load the
wing up, and without a sufficiently strong wing box structure, the wing tip
will twist to a higher AOA producing more twist repeat as necessary until failure
(catastrophic I might add!)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403743#403743
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date:
Jul 01, 2013
Hi Ron.
Glad you are interested.
If you read the topic from the beginning it imply,s that the sole purpose of this
bar was to prevent the wings from being pulled forward all the time during
flight.
I,m getting to old for all of this, but as an instructor many years ago i use to
draw all the forces on the blackboard,and i never drew a wing vector added to
the thrust vector,
So got me thinking why, and i slowly began to come round to thinking there may
be some forward component but not occurring in normal flight.
The tie bar came in with the weight increase mod, with the bigger spar pins, the
swivelling rear fuselage pin socket and the tie strap on the spar.
Then when we had the in flight break up the tie bar became a mandatory mod for
all Europa's with the extra long rear wing pins with big washer and nut inside
the wing root.
I think its purpose is as i have stated, and re enforces the whole structure around
the wing and mounting points, and i believe this weak spot was part of the
break up,
May not have been the initial cause, that may well have been something to do with
the Stabalator.
I may be wrong, I have never built an aeroplane, and im just a simple country boy,with
a pair of eye,s, but do have the right to post my opinion,
I am polite, never make fun of, or discourage any member from posting, and always
willing to listen to another point of view, I am just interested in this particulate
topic, and will look forward to your posting, sorry i can,t give you
the information you requested,
I just fly the plane.
Regards.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403746#403746
________________________________________________________________________________
Ron,
>From your message:
> Attached is a diagram that is a pretty good visualization.
> Ron P.
>
> Here's his reply:
> No it=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s not=C3=A2=82=AC=C2 (a good
visualization)
>
> You have to apply real numbers to those phoney scalers on that figure.
>
> At high AOA the drag is significantly higher than shown, but lift not
so much
> so. This would pull the L/D resultant much father aft.
>
> Those two plots are implying that the L/D of a wing is the same at
cruise and
> at high AOA which we all KNOW is not true! (the reason you never fly a
high
> performance sailplane near Cl Max!)
>
I assume it was my illustration that you forwarded to your friend. If
so, I agree with his statement about L/D - the vectors are not to scale
at all, and were not intended to be. I realize, however, that I should
have emphasized this and also increased the length of the wing drag
vector at the high AOA illustration, but this has no bearing on the lift
component issue.
My message =93 and illustration - had two purposes, which perhaps
your friend was not aware of:
- To show that lift has no component in the direction of
flight, regardless of the angle of attack, while lift may have a
=9Cforward=9D component, if "forward" means the direction
the nose is pointing.
- To show that a glider is pulled forward (in the direction of
gliding flight) by gravity, not by any lift component.
I have not made any calculation of the magnitude of the
=9Cforward=9D lift component vs. drag on Europa or any other
airplane, which is why I just referred to arguments and observations
presented by others: "At some point it may, as I read the discussion,
become larger than the wing DRAG=99s component parallel to the
centerline in the opposite direction, giving a net
=9Cforward=9D force on the wing." The magnitude of such a
=9Cforward=9D component is only dependent on the magnitude
of the lift and the angle between the centerline and the direction of
flight. The magnitude of drag does not come in here. The resultant
force on the wing, however, and whether it acts
=9Cforward=9D or =9Cbackward=9D, depends also on
the drag magnitude.
I apologize if I have caused any confusion about wing L/D vs. AOA (I
don=99t really think I have, though!)
Regards,
Svein
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
Ron.
Just read your friends replay,
There was an light certified aeroplane , many years ago,
Not sure who made it, maybe Pipe but i think it was Italian company ? but it had
forward swept wings.
Can, t spell it nether, a Metersocall
The Europa has a slim straight wing with a little wash out towards the tips. and
made of Glass fibre over foam formers, thats a close as i can get it.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403776#403776
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
From:
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
On 07/01/2013 07:49 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> Do this, Frans: Shake off all your conceptions. Look ONLY at my
> illustrations. The global airplane forces are actually this simple.
I think we are both right, but each of us looking at a different
situation. You are talking about the airplane as a whole.
But for me, as this was the topic of the original discussion, the
question is: what kind of forces do the wings pose on the fuselage?
As the fuselage doesn't want to go forward without the wings, but still
goes forward with the wings, it looks to me that it is possible that the
wings somehow pull the fuselage forward.
And of course I have some clues as why the airplane (as a whole)
actually flies and I agree with your drawings, but again, the topic was:
the rear wing sockets, do they push or do they pull?
To really answer this question you should drawn the vector diagrams not
for the airplane as a whole, but for each of the components that make up
the airplane. And then it would be interesting to see what resultant
force is acting on the rear wing sockets.
Mind you, I might be totally wrong on my idea. But I have a feeling that
it is beyond just our reasoning to really have a grasp which forces are
acting where on the individual interconnecting components. As I recall,
the "cuff" around the two wingspars was a "fix" for some unforeseen
force acting on the wing spars causing them to twist somehow around each
other. Despite the great souls working on the original design of the
wings, it was not foreseen that the cuffs would be necessary.
Has anyone actually ever tried to fly without the rear pip pins in? If
so, what happened? If not, what would happen? Could you get away with
it, or will the wings fold forward during the landing flare?
I don't think the forces are too large anyway, as the original Europa
design didn't have the interconnecting bar between the sockets, and the
original structure is not really that strong with respect to pulling and
pushing forces.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
From:
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
Svein=0AI admire your patience and courtesy,=C2- the persistent deniers o
n this tread have =0Ajust about exhausted mine! First of all one should sta
rt with the facts; when a wing =0Afails due to high positive load it claps
forwards. Saying "I don't believe it because it =0Adoesn't fit my understan
ding or theory might be described as "an academic reaction to an inconvenie
nt truth"=0AThis "forward lift component" is very counter intuitive, the on
ly way to approach it is to =0Arefer to a diagram like yours. The criterion
a lot of people overlook is that lift is=0Aperpendicular to line of flight
, which is NOT parallel with the centre line of the fuselage.=0ANor is it 1
80deg from the line of gravity.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________
____________=0A From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no>
=0ATo: europa-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013, 7:23=0ASubj
ect: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins=0A =0A=0A=0ARon,=0A=C2-=0AF
rom your message:=0A=C2-=0A> Attached is a diagram that is a pretty good
visualization.=0A> Ron P.=0A> =0A> Here's his reply:=0A> No it=C3=A2=82
=AC=84=A2s not=C3=A2=82=AC=C2 (a good visualization)=0A> =0A> You
have to apply real numbers to those phoney scalers on that figure.=0A> =0A>
At high AOA the drag is significantly higher than shown, but lift not so m
uch=0A> so.=C2- This would pull the L/D resultant much father aft.=0A>
=0A> Those two plots are implying that the L/D of a wing is the same at cru
ise and=0A> at high AOA which we all KNOW is not true! (the reason you neve
r fly a high=0A> performance sailplane near Cl Max!)=0A> =0A=C2-=0AI assu
me it was my illustration that you forwarded to your friend.=C2- If so, I
agree with his statement about L/D =C2-- the vectors are not to scale at
all, and were not intended to be.=C2- I realize, however, that I should
have emphasized this and also increased the length of the wing drag vector
at the high AOA illustration, but this has no bearing on the lift component
issue.=0A=C2-=0AMy message =93 and illustration - had two purposes
, which perhaps your friend was not aware of:=C2- =0A=C2-=0A-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- To show that lift has no comp
onent in the direction of flight, regardless of the angle of attack, while
lift may have a =9Cforward=9D component, if "forward" means the
direction the nose is pointing. =C2-=0A-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- To show that a glider is pulled forward (in the di
rection of gliding flight) by gravity, not by any lift component.=0A=C2-
=0AI have not made any calculation of the magnitude of the =9Cforward
=9D lift component vs. drag on Europa or any other airplane, which is
why I just referred to arguments and observations presented by others:=C2
- =C2-"At some point it may, as I read the discussion, become larger th
an the wing DRAG=99s component parallel to the centerline in the oppo
site direction, giving a net =9Cforward=9D force on the wing."
=C2- =C2-The magnitude of such a =9Cforward=9D component is
only dependent on the magnitude of the lift and the angle between the cent
erline and the direction of flight.=C2- The magnitude of drag does not co
me in here.=C2- The resultant force on the wing, however, and whether it
acts =9Cforward=9D or =9Cbackward=9D, depends also
on the drag magnitude.=0A=C2-=0AI apologize if I have caused any confusio
n about wing L/D vs. AOA (I don=99t really think I have, though!)=0A
=====================
________________________________________________________________________________
Frans,
> But for me, as this was the topic of the original discussion, the question
is:
> what kind of forces do the wings pose on the fuselage?
>
> As the fuselage doesn't want to go forward without the wings, but still
goes
> forward with the wings, it looks to me that it is possible that the wings
> somehow pull the fuselage forward.
>
When you fly with the engine pulling on the fuselage (cannot pull on the
wings in the Europa!), the fuselage pulls the wings.
When you glide, I don't know which part (fuselage or wings) have the best
weight/drag ratio, so I don't know whether the fuselage wants to leave the
wings behind or vice versa (I do suspect, though, that the wings are holding
back the fuselage).
At unusual attitude or high G-loading, it has been stated on this forum that
wings (on other airplanes) have moved forward when they broke off. This
means that there has been a forward (centerline direction) net force acting
from the wings onto the fuselage at that time, in addition to a
perpendicular (to centerline) component, of course.
> And of course I have some clues as why the airplane (as a whole) actually
> flies and I agree with your drawings, but again, the topic was:
> the rear wing sockets, do they push or do they pull?
>
> To really answer this question you should drawn the vector diagrams not
for
> the airplane as a whole, but for each of the components that make up the
> airplane. And then it would be interesting to see what resultant force is
> acting on the rear wing sockets.
>
Except in very uncommon circumstances, the rear wing pins on Europa are
pushing backwards on the fuselage-mounted sockets, and tries to bend in the
fuselage sides/compress the cross tie bar between the left and the right
side sockets, as the wings have a resultant force going back and up during
normal powered flight. Whether the resultant force can ever be directed
forward of the perpendicular to the centerline in the Europa, I have no idea
- but I will keep the pins in, just in case!
>
> Has anyone actually ever tried to fly without the rear pip pins in? If so,
what
> happened? If not, what would happen? Could you get away with it, or will
> the wings fold forward during the landing flare?
> I don't think the forces are too large anyway, as the original Europa
design
> didn't have the interconnecting bar between the sockets, and the original
> structure is not really that strong with respect to pulling and pushing
forces.
>
Frans, please promise that you will not be the first one to try that!!
/////////
I prefer to end my limited contribution to this tread now, but look very
much forward to picking it up again over a cold beer at the Vichy fly-in.
Perhaps also the beer's force may be determined by which way we are leaning
..?
Regards,
Svein
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
Thx Graham,
My sentiments exactly.
And to the question of why the spars are strapped together, and why one pin h
as to be a pip pin, is because we have simple overlapping spars, and not for
k spars, so the asymmetrical load on the pins wants to twist them off, as th
e spar ends gets forced away from the other spar.
Cheers,
Pete
On Jul 2, 2013, at 8:19 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
> Svein
> I admire your patience and courtesy, the persistent deniers on this tread
have
> just about exhausted mine! First of all one should start with the facts; w
hen a wing
> fails due to high positive load it claps forwards. Saying "I don't believe
it because it
> doesn't fit my understanding or theory might be described as "an academic r
eaction to an inconvenient truth"
> This "forward lift component" is very counter intuitive, the only way to a
pproach it is to
> refer to a diagram like yours. The criterion a lot of people overlook is t
hat lift is
> perpendicular to line of flight, which is NOT parallel with the centre lin
e of the fuselage.
> Nor is it 180deg from the line of gravity.
> Graham
>
>
> From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen <sidsel.svein(at)oslo.online.no>
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013, 7:23
> Subject: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins
>
> Ron,
>
> =46rom your message:
>
> > Attached is a diagram that is a pretty good visualization.
> > Ron P.
> >
> > Here's his reply:
> > No it=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s not=C3=A2=82=AC=C2 (a good visualiz
ation)
> >
> > You have to apply real numbers to those phoney scalers on that figure.
> >
> > At high AOA the drag is significantly higher than shown, but lift not so
much
> > so. This would pull the L/D resultant much father aft.
> >
> > Those two plots are implying that the L/D of a wing is the same at cruis
e and
> > at high AOA which we all KNOW is not true! (the reason you never fly a h
igh
> > performance sailplane near Cl Max!)
> >
>
> I assume it was my illustration that you forwarded to your friend. If so,
I agree with his statement about L/D - the vectors are not to scale at all
, and were not intended to be. I realize, however, that I should have empha
sized this and also increased the length of the wing drag vector at the high
AOA illustration, but this has no bearing on the lift component issue.
>
> My message =93 and illustration - had two purposes, which perhaps yo
ur friend was not aware of:
>
> - To show that lift has no component in the direction of flight, r
egardless of the angle of attack, while lift may have a =9Cforward
=9D component, if "forward" means the direction the nose is pointing.
> - To show that a glider is pulled forward (in the direction of gl
iding flight) by gravity, not by any lift component.
>
> I have not made any calculation of the magnitude of the =9Cforward
=9D lift component vs. drag on Europa or any other airplane, which is why
I just referred to arguments and observations presented by others: "At so
me point it may, as I read the discussion, become larger than the wing DRAG
=99s component parallel to the centerline in the opposite direction, givi
ng a net =9Cforward=9D force on the wing." The magnitude of su
ch a =9Cforward=9D component is only dependent on the magnitude o
f the lift and the angle between the centerline and the direction of flight.
The magnitude of drag does not come in here. The resultant force on the w
ing, however, and whether it acts =9Cforward=9D or =9Cback
ward=9D, depends also on the drag magnitude.
>
> I apologize if I have caused any confusion about wing L/D vs. AOA (I don
=99t really think I have, though!)
>
> Regards,
> Svein
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listofollow" target="_blank" h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
From:
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
Glad I didn't upset everyone {{!-)=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________
_______________=0A From: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>=0ATo: "europa-list@mat
ronics.com" =0ASent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013, 14:5
4=0ASubject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins=0A =0A=0A=0AThx G
raham,=0A=0AMy sentiments exactly.=0A=0AAnd to the question of why the spar
s are strapped together, and why one pin has to be a pip pin, is because we
have simple overlapping spars, and not fork spars, so the asymmetrical loa
d on the pins wants to twist them off, as the spar ends gets forced away fr
om the other spar.=0A=0ACheers,=0APete=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Jul 2, 2013, at 8:19 A
M, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A=0A=0ASvein
=0A>I admire your patience and courtesy,- =0A
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
From:
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
=0A=0AFrans=0AI hope so too, you are a valued member on this forum!=0AThere
was one tragic incident with a Europa Classic, one of the rear lift pins p
ulled out of the threaded plate in the wing. There were doubts re original
construction but nevertheless forward force must have been considerable.=0A
Graham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Sidsel & Svein Joh
nsen =0ATo: europa-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent:
Tuesday, 2 July 2013, 13:48=0ASubject: SV: SV: SV: SV: Europa-List: Re: wi
ng lift/drag pins=0A =0A=0A=0AFrans,=0A=C2-=0A=0A> I don't think the forc
es are too large anyway, as the original Europa design=0A> didn't have the
interconnecting bar between the sockets, and the original=0A> structure is
not really that strong with respect to pulling and pushing forces.=0A> =0AF
rans, please promise that you will not be the first one to try that!!=0A=C2
-=0A/////////=0A=C2-=0AI prefer to end my limited contribution to this
tread now, but look very much forward to picking it up again over a cold be
er at the Vichy fly-in.=C2- Perhaps also the beer=99s force may be
determined by which way we are leaning ?=0A=C2-=0ARegar
ds,=0ASvein
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
Graham & Frans, There were more than doubts - the three
alloy plates bonded into the wing root for the lift pin to
be screwed into were so misplaced that the drilled hole
overlapped the edge of one, just reached the edge of
another and was only just missing the third, so seriously
reducing the planned strength of the arrangement. It was
never established definitely but it was thought likely
that the dis -engagement of one tail plane led to a sudden
nose up and o0verstress of the wing structure.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
>
>
>Frans
> I hope so too, you are a valued member on this forum!
> There was one tragic incident with a Europa Classic, one
>of the rear lift pins pulled out of the threaded plate in
>the wing. There were doubts re original construction but
>nevertheless forward force must have been considerable.
> Graham
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
>
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013, 13:48
> Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag
>pins
>
>
>
>Frans,
>
>
>> I don't think the forces are too large anyway, as the
>>original Europa design
>> didn't have the interconnecting bar between the sockets,
>>and the original
>> structure is not really that strong with respect to
>>pulling and pushing forces.
>>
>Frans, please promise that you will not be the first one
>to try that!!
>
> /////////
>
> I prefer to end my limited contribution to this tread
>now, but look very much forward to picking it up again
>over a cold beer at the Vichy fly-in. Perhaps also the
>beers force may be determined by which way we are
>leaning ?
>
> Regards,
> Svein
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
<f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject:
Where did I go wrong? OFF TOPIC
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
Cheers,
I am in receipt of another of these gamy emails written in WWI
shorthand - that is a page and a half of letters and figures which defy
decoding in my tiny experience.
I have the terrible feeling that I have failed the group - have
fingered a faulty choice of buttons - have failed to read a perfectly
obvious discretionary warning, - or worse still, am the only one seeing this
block of hieroglyphics which does not exist......and am now for the high
jump at the Home for the Delightfully Bewildered.
What have I done wrong? Is it faulty genetics, a social failing,
even a casually-dropped curse? Help me.
Ferg
C-FFGG
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date:
Jul 02, 2013
Hello All.
What are the rear tie bar and pins used for.
So for all with an open opinion on this topic , this is what Europa Aircraft Company
say about the Tie Bar.
Which gives the full picture, and states Drag and Forward movement.
A requirement to stop the wings fold back, and Forward to stop the wing pulling
forward at high angles of attack, and there's no way this forward force would
rip the rear mounting out from the fuselage, that occurred after something failed
to cause the aircraft to break up.
Quote. Europa
Tie-bar
As the trailing edge lift pin also acts to contain drag loads and the forward component
of lift which is produced at high angles of attack, a tie-bar will be
fitted across the fuselage to react these loads. A general arrangement of the
tie-bar assembly and associated parts is shown in figure 8.
Fig 8.
Alan
Also acts,? what else does it do ?. Don't answer that please.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403832#403832
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
From:
"Europaul383" <europaul383(at)hotmail.com>
Date:
Jul 03, 2013
>Also acts,? what else does it do ?
It transfers lift to the fuselage and locates the trailing edge of the wing at
the appropriate angle of incidence (as does the leading edge wing pin).
Builders' Manual Ch 26, P 26-1: "There are two pins in each wing to transfer lift
to the fuselage; one at the leading edge and one, which doubles to take drag
loads, is at the trailing edge."
Ch 27, P 27-1: "The wing lift pins locate into sockets, which are to be attached
to the fuselage sides, and these hold the wing at the determined angle."
>Don't answer that please.
Oops sorry, too late!
Paul M
G-PLPM
XS Mono 912S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403850#403850
________________________________________________________________________________
This whole discussion has been fascinating. IMHO lot of the discussion
is
related to the difficulty of describing a three dimensional event in
words
(by the way I admire Frans=92 and Svein=92s grasp of English)
As I understand this and for the purposes of the discussion
Motive power is provided primarily from the fuselage in the form of
1. the engine when running
2. or in its absence the mass of the aircraft which is mostly
concentrated in the fuselage being acted upon by the acceleration
provided
by gravity.
Drag affects the aircraft all over its surface but in level flight the
wings
are forced toward the rear of the aircraft by the relative wind acting
upon
the leading edge.
The wings provide the majority of the lift (a minimal being provided by
the
fuselage) in two ways but can only be created by forward motion with
respect
to the relative wind. (if the relative wind is zero then it wont fly)
1. benouille=B4s effect which is perpendicular to the cord
2. force of the relative wind against the lower surface of the
wing.
I am assuming that this varies in a complex way.
One can see the in level flight the mass of the aircraft is supported by
the
wings and this support is transmitted by the 4 points at which the wings
connect to the fuselage. The force of the relative wind against the
leading
edge trying to fold the wings to the rear of the aircraft is being
counteracted by the rear lift sockets and (I would also guess) by the
main
wing spars. So in this case the tie bar is in compression.
I have difficulty with visualizing how the tie bar could be in tension.
I
suppose that with the relative hitting the lower surface of the wing at
a
high angle of attack on could foresee a force component towards the
front of
the fuselage though not in the direction of flight but it seems hard.
Maybe
Rons engineer can try to explain it to us less technical folks.
I am continually surprised by what I learn on the forum.
Yours
Will
Bogota
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 09:01
Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins
Glad I didn't upset everyone {{!-)
Graham
_____
From: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013, 14:54
Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins
Thx Graham,
My sentiments exactly.
And to the question of why the spars are strapped together, and why one
pin
has to be a pip pin, is because we have simple overlapping spars, and
not
fork spars, so the asymmetrical load on the pins wants to twist them
off, as
the spar ends gets forced away from the other spar.
Cheers,
Pete
On Jul 2, 2013, at 8:19 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON
wrote:
Svein
I admire your patience and courtesy,
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject:
Dawn to Dusk Challenge
Date:
Jul 03, 2013
I am planning an attack on the all time distance record
for the D2D Challenge on Sunday if the weather turns out
as good as currently forecast. It stands at 2500nm
currently, and I calculate that a figure of 8 round UK,
Hebrides Orkney & Shetland mainlands and Ireland will do
the trick! It will need rather a long time in the air
averaging 150kts, but if the weather Gods smile and the
donkey keeps going it might just be possible. Plan to fly
it atFL95 apart from the lower level bit round SE England.
Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (mono 914 Woodcomp
SR3000W + purpose built, LAA approved 100litre long range
tank)
PS the 3 planes at the top of the distance record list
are:
1 Beech Baron;
2. Mooney;
3. Hawk Jet!!
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr>
Subject:
Dawn to Dusk Challenge
Date:
Jul 03, 2013
Hi David,
May the weather Gods and saint-Rotax be with you but I'm sure all the Europa
fellows will!
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours
F-PLDJ DynAro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures
-----Message d'origine-----
De: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de David Joyce
Envoy: mercredi 3 juillet 2013 19:53
: europa list
Objet: Europa-List: Dawn to Dusk Challenge
-->
I am planning an attack on the all time distance record for the D2D
Challenge on Sunday if the weather turns out as good as currently forecast.
It stands at 2500nm currently, and I calculate that a figure of 8 round UK,
Hebrides Orkney & Shetland mainlands and Ireland will do the trick! It will
need rather a long time in the air averaging 150kts, but if the weather Gods
smile and the donkey keeps going it might just be possible. Plan to fly it
atFL95 apart from the lower level bit round SE England.
Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (mono 914 Woodcomp SR3000W + purpose built,
LAA approved 100litre long range tank)
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Ivan Shaw <ivanshaw(at)btinternet.com>
Subject:
Re: Dawn to Dusk Challenge
Date:
Jul 03, 2013
David,
Good luck and following winds.
Ivan
Sent from my iPad
On 3 Jul 2013, at 18:52, "David Joyce" wrote:
>
>
> I am planning an attack on the all time distance record for the D2D Challenge
on Sunday if the weather turns out as good as currently forecast. It stands at
2500nm currently, and I calculate that a figure of 8 round UK, Hebrides Orkney
& Shetland mainlands and Ireland will do the trick! It will need rather a long
time in the air averaging 150kts, but if the weather Gods smile and the donkey
keeps going it might just be possible. Plan to fly it atFL95 apart from the
lower level bit round SE England.
> Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (mono 914 Woodcomp SR3000W + purpose built, LAA
approved 100litre long range tank)
> PS the 3 planes at the top of the distance record list are:
> 1 Beech Baron;
> 2. Mooney;
> 3. Hawk Jet!!
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject:
Philip Levi at the AGM
Date:
Jul 03, 2013
Philip,
Sorry to send this through the Matronics site but I do not have your email.
You were taking photos at the AGM. Can you let us have sight of them for the
Magazine, please.
Thanks
Steve Pitt
Chairman
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>
Subject:
Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
Gidday,
I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the rear face of the cockpit
module and setting the incidence. I've used a digital level and upon bonding
on the LE lift pin socket I found the incidence had changed nominally. I have
attempted to make a small adjustment with the TE socket position which is
reduced but not bolted, yet. It was suggested that I could twist the spar nominally
to get the angle accurate but to be honest I didn't like doing that although
I suppose it wouldn't have mattered that much because we might only be talking
about a % of a single degree of twist. Still, I didn't like that idea. Suffice
to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees which is to me unacceptable, BUT,
its a lot of work to undo things. That probably isn't completely true as I only
have the sockets mounted with Redux, so I could heat them and snap them off
and start again, but I worry I'm going to do a lot of work and may well end up
right back where I've started. My pins fit nicely in the back of the seat, and
that took a lot of mucking around, and I worry that to undo things and redo
them I mightn't get the same result. I want to know what people think of this
angle, whether anyone else has not set it perfectly, what difference they perceive
it might make on their plane, and whether anyone has factual consequence
of it not being 100% right. I do worry only about the relationship of the tailplane
to the wing, but having a fully flyable tailplane removes some of the problems
of not having a perfect AoI. The impact could be however that at optimum
in trim cruise the tailplane may be at a slightly different angle at an optimum
CoG, and the full range of pitch may be not what was originally planned.
So, if anyone has advice I'd really appreciate input. I should also add that I
am building a taildraggers, a Bob Berube mod from Florida, which relies on the
same moments as the mono wheel by having the design such that the a/c has a similar
stature on the ground. Maybe the higher AoI might be a bonus, and help
me fly away better, climb better, but no go quite as fast. To be honest, I don't
care anymore as I would prefer to not have to undo stuff I have done. I'm becoming
pretty good at that but unfortunately keep practicing the skill.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
From:
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject:
Trip to Australia, is it possible?
Hi Friends,
After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking fow a new
adventure.
Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are now wondering if
we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised that my son
will graduate next year and now he is still living at home and yet old
enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our house, webshop
and animals, this might be a convenient moment to undertake such a journey.
We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world globe and
seeing that technically it should be possible.
Before putting some time in it and then discovering that some countries
would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster to ask for info
on this list. I remember having seen some references to such a trip or
the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be very valuable to
learn from it.
First questions that come to mind are: What time of year would be best
for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some countries, but is
the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the middle-east and
aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they tolerate home
built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and how much time is
needed to get the necessary permissions?
Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive or negative.
Thanks,
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
From:
"AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
Tony, I can tell you from experience that both wings have to be the same. I set
my up with the fuselage bottom only. I now have both top and bottom on and
have 30 hours of flight time. I have a left wing low. I went back and measured
both wings and the right is 2.4 degrees and the left is 1.7 degrees.
Not sure why! I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on both wings!
I have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low speed the aircraft
left wing drops in a second. I'm planning on resetting the front socket.
I'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the metal plate that is in the fuselage
and will cut out the fuselage skin and add a plate to the ole one then
set the wing up correctly.
Do it right the first, second, third time. If it's right you will have no troubles
when you fly it. Use a laser measure from the tail plane tubes to the wind
aileron end plate to set the sweep.
Rick Stockton
N120EJ
Jabiru 3330L
Whirlwind Ground Adjustable
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403926#403926
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject:
Re: Trip to Australia, is it possible?
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
Frans, it is possible. A Tiger Moth did it in 2001 or
thereabouts. I had planned to do it in 2009 with Ivor
Phillips, in one plane each with long range tank sitting
in passenger seat. Doing it 2 up would be considerably
more of a challenge. We got to an advanced stage in our
planning before my son developing Motor Neurone Disease
put paid to my plans. We worked out that a March departure
was probably optimal. I did write up an article in the
Europa Flyer with a brief description of the main issues,
but would be p,eased to share that reticle and other
fruits of our research with you off list. I have to say
hat the more research we did the more apparent it became
that it would be very expensive and pone to considerable
hassle in many countries once East of central Europe.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Frans Veldman wrote:
>
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking
>fow a new
> adventure.
>
> Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are
>now wondering if
> we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised
>that my son
> will graduate next year and now he is still living at
>home and yet old
> enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our
>house, webshop
> and animals, this might be a convenient moment to
>undertake such a journey.
>
> We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world
>globe and
> seeing that technically it should be possible.
>
> Before putting some time in it and then discovering that
>some countries
> would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster
>to ask for info
> on this list. I remember having seen some references to
>such a trip or
> the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be
>very valuable to
> learn from it.
>
>First questions that come to mind are: What time of year
>would be best
> for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some
>countries, but is
> the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the
>middle-east and
> aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they
>tolerate home
> built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and
>how much time is
> needed to get the necessary permissions?
>
> Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive
>or negative.
>
> Thanks,
>Frans
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject:
Re: Trip to Australia, is it possible?
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
PS Flying to the Canaries is a moderately challenging
adventure which will give you a good flavour of the
difficulties of getting permission to fly a Permit A/C
through. Non European country. It took me 5 1/2 months to
get permission! David
Frans Veldman wrote:
>
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> After our recent north cape trip Ilona and I are looking
>fow a new
> adventure.
>
> Ilona and I always wanted to go to Australia and we are
>now wondering if
> we could do that in our own Europa. We suddenly realised
>that my son
> will graduate next year and now he is still living at
>home and yet old
> enough to carry some responsibility to take care of our
>house, webshop
> and animals, this might be a convenient moment to
>undertake such a journey.
>
> We haven't been doing more yet than looking at the world
>globe and
> seeing that technically it should be possible.
>
> Before putting some time in it and then discovering that
>some countries
> would be unsolvable obstacles, I think it may be faster
>to ask for info
> on this list. I remember having seen some references to
>such a trip or
> the preparations for it, if this is correct it would be
>very valuable to
> learn from it.
>
>First questions that come to mind are: What time of year
>would be best
> for such a trip? I'm aware of the mosson-rain in some
>countries, but is
> the whole period unsuitable for flying? What about the
>middle-east and
> aziatic countries, is General Aviation possible? Do they
>tolerate home
> built airplanes? How much bureaucrazy is involved and
>how much time is
> needed to get the necessary permissions?
>
> Any info for this wild idea is welcome, either positive
>or negative.
>
> Thanks,
>Frans
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
From:
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject:
Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
On 07/04/2013 04:11 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
>
>
> Gidday, I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the
> rear face of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used
> a digital level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found
> the incidence had changed nominally.
Forget this digital level. Been there, done that. It changes everytime,
depending on where you measure and other obscure variables. It drives
you nuts and leads nowhere. And is not precise enough anyway.
Prepare two blocks of some suitable material (wood, blue foam), about 4
cm or so high, and make sure they are of exactly the same size.
Put them on the trailing edge of the wing, at the same distance from the
fuselage.
Now walk away from the airplane. At least 5 meters, more is better.
Bring the top of the leading edge exactly in line with the block on the
trailing edge (just like aiming a gun, you could as well put a needle on
the block and a hairline cross sticking out of the leading edge). On
both sides (port and starboard) you should have the leading edge and
blocks in line at exactly the same eye height. You will notice that
moving your eye just a cm up or down will make a whole difference.
If you do the math, you will find out that this method is many times
more precise than any digital level and you will be able to sight
fractions of a degree. What's more, you can repeat this with the blocks
at varying distances from the fuselage (but keep port and starboard
always at the same distance to cancel the wash out!) and get some
"avarage" out of it to cancel out minor imperfections of the shape of
the wing.
You can get it even more precise if you use some reflecting material, or
put a bright LED on top of the blocks, or use some sort of back light.
It is just like seeing the exact moment of sun rise or sun set. At 20
meters away it is awfully precise to see if both wings are equal: both
leds (or lamps) should rise at exactly the same moment over the leading
edge while you move your head slowly up! Less than just a millimeter of
difference in trailing edge will be clearly visible.
I ended up doing the wings this way, the outcome was stable, repeatable
and very precise, and during curing of the araldite I kept the blocks on
and "sighted" the wings regularly to be sure that nothing moved.
The airplane can be flown right into a stall and just bobs up and down
like a straight Cessna, not even the smallest tendency to wing drop.
> Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees
> which is to me unacceptable,
The target was 2.7 if I recall correctly? Then don't worry. I set mine
deliberately at 0.1 steeper because I have a high top and would prefer
just a tad more nose down to cancel out the steeper angle of the roof
and to get more view over the higher firewall. Flies beautifully!
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject:
Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:32 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:
>>
>> Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees
>> which is to me unacceptable,
>
> The target was 2.7 if I recall correctly?
I believe the XS build manual calls for 2.5 degrees...
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
From:
"Richard Lamprey" <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
Getting it right first time is good. But also I dimly remember (from the days
of the Europa Newsletter, around 1997) the tale of G-KITS, the first factory demonstrator
for the Classic tri-gear, where one wing was accidentally built with
1 degree WASHIN, not 1.5 degree washout. You would think it would have stall/
wingdrop characteristics from hell, but apparently it flew just fine, and
is still flying - I see its picture online. So perhaps there is some leeway in
the AoI.
Richard
Classic Reg 5Y-LRY, Kenya
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403933#403933
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject:
windscreen de-fogging
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
Gentlemen,
I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in the
top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the windscreen...I'm
uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job.
If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or
insufficient...I'd be grateful
I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to conditions
in UK.
Thanks in advance,
Fred
A-194
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
From:
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject:
Re: windscreen de-fogging
On 07/04/2013 07:12 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
> I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted
> louvers in the top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of
> de-fogging the windscreen...I'm uncertain as to what cfm ratings or
> sizes will do the job.
I did that too, and despite our damp climate I have used them only twice
(and found out that they didn't contribute much anyway).
You'd probably better save the weight.
Frans
________________________________________________________________________________
Fred Klein a crit :
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in the
top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the windscreen...I'm
uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job.
>
> If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is sufficient...or
insufficient...I'd be grateful
>
> I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to conditions
in UK.
>
>
Hi Fred,
Here is what we did recently :
http://contrails.free.fr/cellule_defog_en.php
Not much weight involved (about 700-800 g) though we feel that our 380
kg four seater is a bit on the heavy side ;-)
FWIW,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
Subject:
Re: windscreen de-fogging
From:
rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Fred
"If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is
sufficient...or insufficient"
I chose to use four 12 volt mini fans. They are run off a 3 position
(low, high and off). If 2 are put in series it's low, and if run off
bus voltage, then high. Yes idea as a minimiist demister but also to get
heat out from under instrument module. You can find info on what I am
doing (I did quite a bit of fooling with different fans. There is also a
folder on that page "Panel cooling and demisting ideas by
others."
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27305
I am installing temp probes under the instrument module so will be able
to see temps.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject:
Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
Tony,
Welcome to my world.
The first Europa I purchased used had the left wing at 2.6 and the right
at 3.1. I moved the sockets in the right fuselage side to 2.6. It
flies straight and true. If you were to set both at 2.8 degrees your
fuselage will be nose down a bit at cruise, which shouldn't hurt a
thing. Just go for it.
As for your gear relationship, deck angle etc. on landing, I can only
say that the extra bit of incidence will allow you to be closer to the
stall angle at the three point touchdown and improve over the nose
visibility.
In practice I found that I can correct with flap and aileron trimming up
to .2 degrees incidence difference and you will never see my changes.
At .4 incidence difference, I have to modify the the wing leading edge
to get a perfectly straight stall.
First consider this: To be sure as Frans and others might say that
later, that all digital and spirit or bubble levels are not equal. In
fact I have one that is off .3 degrees when tested at three degrees. My
test bench is a simple 3 inch block in 60 inches and with the level
facing one direction and when the level is rotated 180 degrees putting
the scale window on the other side it measures 2.7 degrees rather than
the three. That's 10 percent off.
So it is best to set your spirit level or digital level on a dead flat
surface and check the zero to 3 degree setting. I used to set my level
at 2.5 degrees (2.5 inch board at 60 inches) 3 degrees, 5 degrees and 12
degrees for calibration purposes of the wing incidence, and tail planes
to make sure things are fairly close to the manual.
Since your sockets are only in Redux, snap them off and fix them both is
what I would do.
I have found that the best way to make sure things don't move is to
shore up the wing well during cure. Just in case the temp changes over
cure time, I block the gear also if necessary. Trigear, I put a pipe in
the main gear, and for the conventional, I block the spring gear itself.
I know that you don't really want to hear this but the standard rule in
my shop is take it apart and put it together (normally about 5 times)
until it is repeatable and easy to do. That means when building glider
wings, or rigging the plane, or hanging the cowl if you try to do things
in one shot, you will have to redo it to get it right.
The worst thing to happen when rigging wings is to have the left spar
creep aft during the socket build up then it causes so many troubles
down the road. Take your time, make sure it fits all around then tack
it in place.
The only difference between a professional build and an amateur build,
is I know how to fix my mistakes before it affects something else.
As for the tail dragger, good luck. It is best to modify the gear to
get the position of the axle to leading edge of the wing MAC (about 2/3
out on the wing from fuselage centerline) over the axle with the
fuselage in level position. Contact Grove, as Bobby Grove has a couple
of solutions. (New gear or 1/4 inch steel plates to increase deck angle
and move the axles back about 4-5 inches. As the gear as is, I find it
un-gratifying to fly the gear as designed. It is very tough to wheel
land the conventional due to the spring stiffness and forward position.
With a 10 Knot cross wind I can land on one main and do a wheel landing
with ease and no tire wear (without the crosswind, tire wear on a wing
low slightly slipped landing is more than I care to pay for). Three
point is not a problem. It is quite tough to teach a new guy how to
land and takeoff with the gear as set. It's a mono except it doesn't
fall over when the wings are pulled off. If you hit mains first with
any vertical component, the tail drops faster than you can react and
combined with the extra lift from the drooping tail added to the gear
spring reaction, you get launched back in the air, then hit the tail
wheel, you over correct and down on the main again resulting in a
porpoise which continues to increase in speed and frequency naturally
and any PIO combination can be a disaster. Just go around and get the
tail wheel on first. Don't relax on roll out as between 45 to a fast
walk it tends to wander and you have to "stay on it". Not difficult to
master, it just takes practice, discipline and the ability to go around
early when it doesn't work out on first contact. Go around early and
save yourself and the plane.
I highly recommend you do not install a fully swiveling tail wheel
unless you can lock it from the cockpit as the torque of a 912S with
Airmaster is enough that a moment of inattention or failure to keep the
stick full back is a real eye opener for the new guy on takeoff if the
tail wheel is not positively locked. Next, on landing or a bounce, if
slightly sideways, the tail wheel may unlock and you will be off to the
races with no tail control but the rudder which is not effective at
really low speed on takeoff or roll out...
Find a Luscombe with a bad wheel alignment on steroids to practice with
on asphalt. Keep it straight, lower your IQ to a 2 and hold it off
until hit the tail wheel first. You'll be fine.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Renshaw<mailto:tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:11 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger
Downunder
>
Gidday,
I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the rear face
of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used a digital
level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found the incidence
had changed nominally. I have attempted to make a small adjustment with
the TE socket position which is reduced but not bolted, yet. It was
suggested that I could twist the spar nominally to get the angle
accurate but to be honest I didn't like doing that although I suppose it
wouldn't have mattered that much because we might only be talking about
a % of a single degree of twist. Still, I didn't like that idea. Suffice
to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees which is to me unacceptable, BUT,
its a lot of work to undo things. That probably isn't completely true as
I only have the sockets mounted with Redux, so I could heat them and
snap them off and start again, but I worry I'm going to do a lot of work
and may well end up right back where I've started. My pins fit nicely !
in the back of the seat, and that took a lot of mucking around, and I
worry that to undo things and redo them I mightn't get the same result.
I want to know what people think of this angle, whether anyone else has
not set it perfectly, what difference they perceive it might make on
their plane, and whether anyone has factual consequence of it not being
100% right. I do worry only about the relationship of the tailplane to
the wing, but having a fully flyable tailplane removes some of the
problems of not having a perfect AoI. The impact could be however that
at optimum in trim cruise the tailplane may be at a slightly different
angle at an optimum CoG, and the full range of pitch may be not what was
originally planned.
So, if anyone has advice I'd really appreciate input. I should also
add that I am building a taildraggers, a Bob Berube mod from Florida,
which relies on the same moments as the mono wheel by having the design
such that the a/c has a similar stature on the ground. Maybe the higher
AoI might be a bonus, and help me fly away better, climb better, but no
go quite as fast. To be honest, I don't care anymore as I would prefer
to not have to undo stuff I have done. I'm becoming pretty good at that
but unfortunately keep practicing the skill.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
________________________________________________________________________________
Ron,
I installed both 40 mm and 80 mm computer CPU fans and frankly, the 40s
don't move that much air. The 80s do better at venting the hot air out
of the panel. Some electronics get quite warm and I wanted to cool the
panel, not really defrost. That was a hopeful side effect of the
installation of the fans.
The first setup on 12AY I put the fans too far forward and they blow
into the windscreen support. To be honest, I can't even feel the air
flow moving up the windscreen, it moves sideways. That was a dumb
execution of a good idea.
On others, I move the fans as far aft toward the pilot as I can to pull
the Garmin 430 and Dynon Skyview heat out of the panel. They both get
pretty hot. I have found that the air comes up the windscreen, but is
not hot enough or fast enough in the winter to feel like a defogger, but
at least it moves the air up the windscreen. If you have an Ameriking
type cooling fan, one leg of that would be about as strong as my two
80s...
The Grand Rapids and Becker radios are pretty cool running and frankly
the panel only gets about 10 degrees warmer than the cockpit, so without
the heat and high forced air flow of an auto type defogger, I do not see
it as much help on a cold day at altitude with a quick descent to the
warmer air below steaming things up.
Sorry I don't have more info for you. It's just too hot here in
Florida. Even in the winter, although my canopy top fogs up and my
screen fogs for a second or two, they both clear once the inside and
outside temps stabilize.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us<mailto:rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: Europa
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging
Hi Fred
"If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is
sufficient...or insufficient"
I chose to use four 12 volt mini fans. They are run off a 3 position
(low, high and off). If 2 are put in series it's low, and if run off bus
voltage, then high. Yes idea as a minimiist demister but also to get
heat out from under instrument module. You can find info on what I am
doing (I did quite a bit of fooling with different fans. There is also a
folder on that page "Panel cooling and demisting ideas by others."
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27305
I am installing temp probes under the instrument module so will be
able to see temps.
Ron Parigoris
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Bud again,
Its been 14 years since I was flying, and the old memory is not as good.
All I can remember is bendy wings, and use to have a weight and balance sheet and
it had this Zero Fuel Weight , think it was about 122000 lbs,
I have this C of G calculator and when I do a weight and balance with the Europa
figures I get an Out of Zero Fuel Wight some times, can,t see how this applies
to a Europa, no wing tanks,
Am I missing something,
Regards.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403962#403962
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
Subject:
Re: wing lift/drag pins
Date:
Jul 04, 2013
Alan,
Hope the flight goes well. Sounds like you have prepared properly.
As for CG, I am afraid that since this is such a simple airplane, I pull
out the paper form in my checklist and do a quick calc by hand if I am
out of one of my standard load calculations. I had a CG calculator on
my computer and it worked flawlessly, but found it took longer to start
it up, input the garbage, and check the result than it took to do it by
hand. Especially with my standardized computations sheets.
I purchased expensive scales for my shop wt and balance work and
calibrated them of course. Once I do the wt and balance, and compute
the ranges, I must admit I have become somewhat cavalier in my wt and
balance checks. Yes, I am acquiring bad habits.
The reason is, or should I say excuse:
When we finish a plane here we do a number of calculations. Initial
test flight; then max pilot and pax wt with zero fuel and baggage for
max forward CG; then max aft which is usually a 120 pound pilot, max
fuel and max baggage; typical pilot and copilot with full fuel and 2.5
gallon landing and a couple of flight bags for local flying; cross
country pilot and passenger, full takeoff and landing fuel, full baggage
or what the CG or GW will allow. Then I print them up on a sheet for
inclusion in the handbook. Should the owner exceed any of these set CG
comps (like taking off well over max design gross takeoff weight), I go
fly with them and do stalls noting the increases and difference in
break, slow flight, maneuvering and approaches and landings with them
until they are comfortable, understand the load limit restrictions (as
they are well into the safety factors the G limits are changed). I
especially do this if the empty plane is really heavy. Many times I add
stall strips to give better buffet warning prior to the stall.
I have found that I prefer the CG of a fully serviced with oil and
coolant airplane empty CG to be 60 inches. That way a 180 pound pilot,
full or half fuel load for the test flight and only a flight bag allows
me to easily control the plane even if the trim should fail or run away.
On cross country cruising, this allows full fuel for takeoff, full
luggage at 80 pounds and another 180 pound pilot without worry.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Carter<mailto:alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 6:10 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing lift/drag pins
>
Hi Bud again,
Its been 14 years since I was flying, and the old memory is not as
good.
All I can remember is bendy wings, and use to have a weight and
balance sheet and it had this Zero Fuel Weight , think it was about
122000 lbs,
I have this C of G calculator and when I do a weight and balance with
the Europa figures I get an Out of Zero Fuel Wight some times, can,t see
how this applies to a Europa, no wing tanks,
Am I missing something,
Regards.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403962#403962
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403962#403962>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
________________________________________________________________________________
Thank you Andy. My Europa lives in a nice hangar on a country airfield in Kenya
for 10 months each year. The other 2 months, it sits at the main lightplane
airfield of Kenya, outside in the sun and rain (because there is no space in
any hangar there), waiting for a Civil Aviation inspector to inspect it for its
annual "Kenya Restricted Certificate of Airworthiness". Eventually an inspector
will come, usually facilitated to do so by a fat brown envelope. This happens
year after year. I have a Cambrai cover for the fuselage, but nothing for
wings and tailplane, so last year, at inspection time, I had a local cover-maker
make covers for wings and tail. The sun came out, it rained, more sun,
and more rain. The covers were soaked, then warmed, soaked again etc. Finally
the inspector came and went, advising me that to get the Certificate renewed,
I would have to paint the words 'no push' in red paint on the ailerons. Two
months later, I noticed some of the osmosis bubbles had formed on the stabilator
surface, not many, but entirely due to wet covers and osmosis. So moral of
the story, try to keep it out of sun and rain for long period, but if you cant
avoid this, don't put covers on the wings and tail.
Best
Richard
Kenya
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403992#403992
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Outside aircraft
From:
andrew cullum <asc23111964(at)hotmail.co.uk>
Date:
Jul 05, 2013
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your message,personally I would never leave DH outside for any
Appreciable time,with or without covers.
I've done quite a bit of gliding in my time,so I'm well familiar with composites
and their draw-backs.
Did you sand back,dry out and re-paint
Your tailplanes?
The aircraft I saw here in the U.K.at first
Looked ok,but on closer inspection,it was obvious it was in a sorry state,with
Quite a few blisters mid-way on the D-box on the wing,..just where you don't want
to see them.
So,it looks like it would require major strip dry out at 35-40 c dehumidifiers,
Silica gel etc,and even then there could
Be underlying freezing damage to the structure,which would require investigation
before any re-painting was
carried out.
If you do leave your aircraft out,a polish with good old beeswax is a good tip
to help keep the water out.
Best Regards
Andy Cullum.
Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
From:
Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.com>
Date:
Jul 05, 2013
Hi Guys,
I would like to make a few comments / observations, not in any particular o
rder, on some of the postings on here recently.
G-KITS, originally had a set of Classic wings, built by a third party, wher
e the port wing had 1.5 degrees of washIN, not evenly distributed along the
wing, but mostly in the outboard panel. Wings rigged using the root area a
s datum. It flew, as you would expect, one wing low.
Attempts to trim this out with aileron re rigging and flap drooping were un
successful, so the port wing was re rigged, can't remember by how much in d
egrees, but the figure of .3'' down at the leading edge comes to mind.
Went much better after that, with some stall strip juggling it stalled true
, BUT spins in one direction were frightening [ as in change of underpants
frightening !].
G-KITS was then retro fitted with a new set of XS wings,[ the original G-KI
TS wings went on the then retired G-YURO which was lost from active service
in a take off incident when the Arplast prop decided, uncommanded, to go i
nto Beta.........]
Sockets had been unbolted / sweated off, alloy plates replaced and wing ref
itted as per Manual. Seatback spar bush re aligned with a hot, tapered pin
''pugler''. Warm the pin, shove it through the seatback / wing spars and g
o for a coffee.
UV degradation.... the paint would have been AERODUR C100UVR, about as good
as paints get, the registration decals would have been Fascal vinyl, with
a 7 year life... how old is KITS now ?..... Quality polyurathane paints li
ve quite well in Miami and Bahama marina's, unlike some of the ''unquality'
' water thinned cr*p
Wing incidence cock up.......do it correctly, NOW ! Sweat the sockets off
and redo it. Make sure the wings are fully forward, by tieing the spar tang
s forward with rope, or chocking with wedges.
If using a digital level, MAKE SURE YOU READ IT FROM THE SAME DIRECTION [
LOOKING INBOARD AT IT ON THE PORT WING, AND OUTBOARD AT IT ON THE STARBOARD
WING] I have seen builders doing ''dry runs'' and looking inboard at the r
eadout on both wings, any error in the tool itself, or in fuselage levellin
g will be doubled. Tap the level to see which way the reading ''skips'', ge
t the ''skip'' the same on both wings. This will be as close a matters in t
he real world.
Shore the wings in several places so no movement is possible during the ove
rnight Redux cure.
Osmosis.... people are confusing Osmosis with Micro Blistering. What will b
e evident on a painted Epoxy surface is Micro Blistering, where water has g
ot between the paint and the substrate, usually as a result of covering a w
et [ water] surface and letting it sweat like a sauna, the moisture has gon
e through the paint skin and is trapped. Leaving this out in the sun will
usually dry it out. Left uncovered is a better option than covers. Micro Bl
isters are not a structural issue, merely water sitting on top of the epoxy
substrate.
Cover a car with a non breathing cover, left wet, the same Micro Blisterin
g will occur over a steel substrate.
Osmosis [ in the GRP meaning of the word ] is the reaction with chemicals
in / on the glass fibres [ usually the PVA binder holding the CSM together]
and water, usually within polyester resin, which turns to acid [ and will
smell of vinegar if the bubble is popped.]
My Inspector said ''that's the one with all the Mods''....... working from
memory, there were 32 Mods incorporated into the XS Kit by 1996, since the
n there have been 8 MANDATORY MODS, the rest have been upgrades. Put this i
nto perspective, the Slingsby Firefly has 1200 + mods, wonder how many mods
apply to a C150 ?
The tie bar was introduced to allow the Gross weight to be raised to 1370 l
bs, if anyone is happy to have the 1300 lb limit, the tie bar is not requir
ed [ nor is it required to change to the swivelling rear sockets.]
Bit of History, the original G-YURO front wing pins were .75'' long, and th
ere was no top hat stiffener from thigh support to door sill. Pete Clark [b
less him] was ''vigorously exploring the flight envelope'', and pulled a '
'bit'' of G, and the front pin popped out of the socket and rode above sai
d socket. Apart from the ''bang'' which scared the s**t out of Pete and Rog
er Bull [ who was riding shotgun], nothing else happened, though it took so
me effort to de rig the wing later.
A longer front pin [ same length as the flap pin,] and the top hat stiffene
r cured that.
Regarding Inspections, if the Inspector chosen for Permit Renewals only ''k
nowledge'' of the Europa is ''that's the one with all the Mods'', he probab
ly [ or more likely definitely] isn't the Inspector you need to do the Perm
it, especially if you are not the builder of the aircraft.
I once worked on a Europa that the current owner had just bought, with 5 ho
urs flight time since the previous Permit, that had been Inspected by an ''
old timer'' Inspector, and there were so many flight safety faults with it,
I had to ''dob in'' the Inspector to LaaLaaLand. Turns out he was an exper
t in Austers and the like, but knew SFA about the Europa. LAA didn't take a
ny action as he had since retired from Inspecting.
Comparing a C150 with the Europa is pure folly, like comparing a Morris 100
0 with a Ford Focus ST ?
I have 1.4 hrs in a C150, time I am never going to get back..... wasted...
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Lamprey <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 6:10 pm
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downu
nder
.com>
Getting it right first time is good. But also I dimly remember (from the d
ays
of the Europa Newsletter, around 1997) the tale of G-KITS, the first factor
y
demonstrator for the Classic tri-gear, where one wing was accidentally buil
t
with 1 degree WASHIN, not 1.5 degree washout. You would think it would hav
e
stall/ wingdrop characteristics from hell, but apparently it flew just fine
, and
is still flying - I see its picture online. So perhaps there is some leewa
y in
the AoI.
Richard
Classic Reg 5Y-LRY, Kenya
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403933#403933
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 05, 2013
From:
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject:
Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
NEv=0Awasn't it an Ivoprop that went into Beta?=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_
_______________________________=0A From: Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.com>=0AT
o: europa-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, 5 July 2013, 22:37=0ASubject:
Re: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Guys,=0AI would like to make a few comments / observations,
not in any particular order, on some of the postings on here recently.=0AG
-KITS, originally had a set of Classic wings, built by a third party, where
the port wing had 1.5 degrees of washIN, not-evenly distributed along th
e wing, but mostly in the outboard panel. Wings rigged using the root area
as datum. It flew, as you would expect, one wing low.=0AAttempts to trim th
is out with aileron re rigging and flap drooping were unsuccessful,-so th
e port wing was re rigged, can't remember by how much in degrees, but the f
igure of .3'' down at the leading edge comes to mind.=0AWent much better af
ter that, with some stall strip juggling it stalled true, BUT spins in one
direction were frightening-[ as in change of underpants frightening !].
=0AG-KITS was then retro fitted with a new set of XS wings,[ the original G
-KITS-wings went on the then retired G-YURO which was lost from active se
rvice in a take off incident-when the Arplast prop decided, uncommanded,
to go into Beta.........]=0ASockets had been unbolted / sweated off, alloy
plates replaced and wing refitted as per Manual. Seatback spar bush re alig
ned with a hot, tapered-pin- ''pugler''. Warm the pin, shove it through
the seatback / wing spars and go for a coffee.=0AUV degradation.... the pa
int would have been AERODUR C100UVR, about as good as paints get, the regis
tration decals would have been Fascal vinyl, with a 7 year life... how old
is KITS now ?..... Quality- polyurathane paints live quite well in Miami
and Bahama marina's, unlike some of the ''unquality'' water thinned cr*p=0A
-=0AWing--incidence cock up.......do it correctly, NOW ! Sweat the so
ckets off and redo it. Make sure the wings are fully forward, by tieing the
spar tangs forward with rope, or chocking with wedges.=0A-If using a-d
igital level, MAKE SURE YOU READ IT FROM THE SAME DIRECTION [ LOOKING INBOA
RD AT IT ON THE PORT WING, AND OUTBOARD AT IT ON THE STARBOARD WING] I have
seen builders doing ''dry runs'' and looking inboard at the readout on bot
h wings, any error in the tool itself, or in fuselage levelling will be dou
bled. Tap the level to see which way the reading ''skips'', get the ''skip'
' the same on both wings. This will be as close a matters in the real world
.-=0AShore the wings in several places so no movement is possible during
the overnight Redux cure.=0A-=0AOsmosis.... people are confusing Osmosis
with Micro Blistering. What will be evident on a painted Epoxy surface is M
icro Blistering, where water has got between the paint and the substrate, u
sually as a result of covering a wet [ water] surface and letting it sweat
like a sauna, the moisture has gone through the paint skin and is trapped.
Leaving this out in- the sun will usually dry it out. Left uncovered is a
better option than covers. Micro Blisters are not a structural issue, mere
ly water sitting on top of the epoxy substrate.=0A-Cover a car with a non
breathing cover, left wet, the same Micro Blistering will occur over a ste
el substrate. =0AOsmosis [- in the GRP meaning of the word ]-is the rea
ction with chemicals in / on the glass fibres [ usually the PVA binder hold
ing the CSM together] and water, usually within- polyester-resin,-whi
ch turns to acid [ and will smell of vinegar if the bubble is-popped.]=0A
-=0AMy Inspector said ''that's the one with all the Mods''.......- work
ing from memory, there were 32 Mods incorporated into the XS Kit by 1996, s
ince then there have been 8 MANDATORY MODS, the rest have been upgrades. Pu
t this into perspective, the Slingsby Firefly has 1200 + mods, wonder how m
any mods apply to a C150 ?=0AThe tie bar was introduced to allow the Gross
weight to be raised to 1370 lbs, if anyone is happy to have the 1300 lb lim
it, the tie bar is not required [ nor is it required to change to the swive
lling rear sockets.]=0ABit of History, the original G-YURO front wing pins
were .75'' long, and there was no top hat stiffener from thigh support to d
oor sill. Pete Clark [bless him] was ''vigorously exploring the flight enve
lope'', and- pulled a ''bit'' of- G, and the front pin popped out of th
e socket and rode above said socket. Apart from the ''bang'' which scared t
he s**t out of Pete and Roger Bull [ who was riding shotgun], nothing else
happened, though it took some effort to de rig-the wing later.=0AA longer
front pin [ same length as the flap pin,] and the top hat stiffener cured
-that.-=0ARegarding Inspections, if the Inspector chosen for Permit Ren
ewals only ''knowledge'' of the Europa is ''that's the one with all the Mod
s'', he probably [ or more likely definitely] isn't the Inspector you need
to do the Permit, especially if you are not the builder of the aircraft.=0A
I once worked on a Europa that the current owner had just bought, with 5 ho
urs flight time since the previous Permit, that had been Inspected by an ''
old timer'' Inspector, and there were so many flight safety faults with it,
I had to ''dob in'' the Inspector to LaaLaaLand. Turns out he was an exper
t in-Austers and the like, but knew SFA about the-Europa. LAA didn't ta
ke any action as he had since retired from Inspecting.=0AComparing a C150 w
ith the Europa is pure folly, like comparing a Morris 1000 with- a Ford F
ocus ST ?=0AI have 1.4 hrs in a C150, time I am never going to get back....
. wasted...=0A--=0A-=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Richard Lam
prey =0ATo: europa-list =0ASent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 6:10 pm=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of I
ncidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder=0A=0A=0A--> Europa-List message
posted by: "Richard Lamprey" Getting it right
first time is good. But also I dimly remember (from the days =0Aof the Eur
opa Newsletter, around 1997) the tale of G-KITS, the first factory =0Ademon
strator for the Classic tri-gear, where one wing was accidentally built =0A
with 1 degree WASHIN, not 1.5 degree washout. You would think it would hav
e =0Astall/ wingdrop characteristics from hell, but apparently it flew just
fine, and =0Ais still flying - I see its picture online. So perhaps there
is some leeway in =0Athe AoI. Richard=0AClassic Reg 5Y-LRY, Kenya Read thi
s topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403933#4
03933 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp:
//forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A
=============
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Outside aircraft
From:
Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Date:
Jul 05, 2013
Sounds to me like this ship would deserve full sand bagging for checking POS and
NEG G-loading before flight test...
On Jul 5, 2013, at 11:33 AM, andrew cullum wrote:
> The aircraft I saw here in the U.K.at first
> Looked ok,but on closer inspection,it was obvious it was in a sorry state,with
> Quite a few blisters mid-way on the D-box on the wing,..just where you don't
want to see them.
> So,it looks like it would require major strip dry out at 35-40 c dehumidifiers,
> Silica gel etc,and even then there could
> Be underlying freezing damage to the structure,which would require investigation
before any re-painting was
> carried out.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: windscreen de-fogging
From:
"rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 05, 2013
i have read the discussion on the issue of defogging and it appears that
are no actual answers out there yet regarding airflow, temperature, etc.
I will add my meager data to the pool
My bird has a Blue Mountain EFIS 4 series which shuts down at temps
above abt 144F. I have a 24 cfm fan in a convective tower directly
above the EFIS leading into a 3 in louver directed into the plexi.
On a 90F sunny day as so many local days are here on Long Island,
without the fan, the EFIS will blackout within an hour of the plane out
of the hangar, flying or not. The installed fan slows the inexorable rise somewhat
say by 15 min to overheat. Clearly unacceptable cooling. However,
it has actually cleared plexi condensation in two instances where it existed,
in about 5 minutes (this was light grey mist, not dripping condensation).
As I contemplate my move to much warmer clime, i will need to
re-engineer the cooling. These little muffin fans are not likely to be useful
even if ganged together. High velocity outside air is probably the best answer.
Actual flight testing is needed.
As usual, your mileage will vary
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404012#404012
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder
From:
Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.com>
Date:
Jul 05, 2013
No, it was definitely the Arplast, the Ivoprop gears stripped when being cy
cled on the bench ! We never flew it. As I said before, if an Ivoprop was u
sed as a ceiling fan, I wouldn't walk under it without a crash helmet on !
The Arplast had done the same trick on the ground previously, Roger Sherida
n P1, with me shotgun, sitting in front of the hangar at Wombleton, Went Be
ta and we backed up !
Alan whatshisname came back to sort it, with bits he had left over from wha
t looked like his R/C helicopter bin, never trusted it , pretty poor engine
ering.
Nev
-----Original Message-----
From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger D
ownunder
NEv
wasn't it an Ivoprop that went into Beta?
Graham
From: Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, 5 July 2013, 22:37
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger
Downunder
Hi Guys,
I would like to make a few comments / observations, not in any particular o
rder, on some of the postings on here recently.
G-KITS, originally had a set of Classic wings, built by a third party, wher
e the port wing had 1.5 degrees of washIN, not evenly distributed along the
wing, but mostly in the outboard panel. Wings rigged using the root area a
s datum. It flew, as you would expect, one wing low.
Attempts to trim this out with aileron re rigging and flap drooping were un
successful, so the port wing was re rigged, can't remember by how much in d
egrees, but the figure of .3'' down at the leading edge comes to mind.
Went much better after that, with some stall strip juggling it stalled true
, BUT spins in one direction were frightening [ as in change of underpants
frightening !].
G-KITS was then retro fitted with a new set of XS wings,[ the original G-KI
TS wings went on the then retired G-YURO which was lost from active service
in a take off incident when the Arplast prop decided, uncommanded, to go i
nto Beta.........]
Sockets had been unbolted / sweated off, alloy plates replaced and wing ref
itted as per Manual. Seatback spar bush re aligned with a hot, tapered pin
''pugler''. Warm the pin, shove it through the seatback / wing spars and g
o for a coffee.
UV degradation.... the paint would have been AERODUR C100UVR, about as good
as paints get, the registration decals would have been Fascal vinyl, with
a 7 year life... how old is KITS now ?..... Quality polyurathane paints li
ve quite well in Miami and Bahama marina's, unlike some of the ''unquality'
' water thinned cr*p
Wing incidence cock up.......do it correctly, NOW ! Sweat the sockets off
and redo it. Make sure the wings are fully forward, by tieing the spar tang
s forward with rope, or chocking with wedges.
If using a digital level, MAKE SURE YOU READ IT FROM THE SAME DIRECTION [
LOOKING INBOARD AT IT ON THE PORT WING, AND OUTBOARD AT IT ON THE STARBOARD
WING] I have seen builders doing ''dry runs'' and looking inboard at the r
eadout on both wings, any error in the tool itself, or in fuselage levellin
g will be doubled. Tap the level to see which way the reading ''skips'', ge
t the ''skip'' the same on both wings. This will be as close a matters in t
he real world.
Shore the wings in several places so no movement is possible during the ove
rnight Redux cure.
Osmosis.... people are confusing Osmosis with Micro Blistering. What will b
e evident on a painted Epoxy surface is Micro Blistering, where water has g
ot between the paint and the substrate, usually as a result of covering a w
et [ water] surface and letting it sweat like a sauna, the moisture has gon
e through the paint skin and is trapped. Leaving this out in the sun will
usually dry it out. Left uncovered is a better option than covers. Micro Bl
isters are not a structural issue, merely water sitting on top of the epoxy
substrate.
Cover a car with a non breathing cover, left wet, the same Micro Blisterin
g will occur over a steel substrate.
Osmosis [ in the GRP meaning of the word ] is the reaction with chemicals
in / on the glass fibres [ usually the PVA binder holding the CSM together]
and water, usually within polyester resin, which turns to acid [ and will
smell of vinegar if the bubble is popped.]
My Inspector said ''that's the one with all the Mods''....... working from
memory, there were 32 Mods incorporated into the XS Kit by 1996, since the
n there have been 8 MANDATORY MODS, the rest have been upgrades. Put this i
nto perspective, the Slingsby Firefly has 1200 + mods, wonder how many mods
apply to a C150 ?
The tie bar was introduced to allow the Gross weight to be raised to 1370 l
bs, if anyone is happy to have the 1300 lb limit, the tie bar is not requir
ed [ nor is it required to change to the swivelling rear sockets.]
Bit of History, the original G-YURO front wing pins were .75'' long, and th
ere was no top hat stiffener from thigh support to door sill. Pete Clark [b
less him] was ''vigorously exploring the flight envelope'', and pulled a '
'bit'' of G, and the front pin popped out of the socket and rode above sai
d socket. Apart from the ''bang'' which scared the s**t out of Pete and Rog
er Bull [ who was riding shotgun], nothing else happened, though it took so
me effort to de rig the wing later.
A longer front pin [ same length as the flap pin,] and the top hat stiffene
r cured that.
Regarding Inspections, if the Inspector chosen for Permit Renewals only ''k
nowledge'' of the Europa is ''that's the one with all the Mods'', he probab
ly [ or more likely definitely] isn't the Inspector you need to do the Perm
it, especially if you are not the builder of the aircraft.
I once worked on a Europa that the current owner had just bought, with 5 ho
urs flight time since the previous Permit, that had been Inspected by an ''
old timer'' Inspector, and there were so many flight safety faults with it,
I had to ''dob in'' the Inspector to LaaLaaLand. Turns out he was an exper
t in Austers and the like, but knew SFA about the Europa. LAA didn't take a
ny action as he had since retired from Inspecting.
Comparing a C150 with the Europa is pure folly, like comparing a Morris 100
0 with a Ford Focus ST ?
I have 1.4 hrs in a C150, time I am never going to get back..... wasted...
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Lamprey <lamprey.richard(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 6:10 pm
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downu
nder
.com>
Getting it right first time is good. But also I dimly remember (from the d
ays
of the Europa Newsletter, around 1997) the tale of G-KITS, the first factor
y
demonstrator for the Classic tri-gear, where one wing was accidentally buil
t
with 1 degree WASHIN, not 1.5 degree washout. You would think it would hav
e
stall/ wingdrop characteristics from hell, but apparently it flew just fine
, and
is still flying - I see its picture online. So perhaps there is some leewa
y in
the AoI.
Richard
Classic Reg 5Y-LRY, Kenya
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403933#403933
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator_blank"; href="http://forums.matronics.
com/">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Outside aircraft
From:
andrew cullum <asc23111964(at)hotmail.co.uk>
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
Yes,good point Fred.
Just to illustrate my point,a few years ago there was a Rallye Minerva parked at
a local airfield.
It had a composite Hoffman variable pitch propellor,almost brand new.
Sadly, the owner hadnt paid the bill for
Maintenance,so the company put it outside,without removing the propellor.
It remained outside for about 18 months,which meant particularly cold temps in
winter,snow etc.
I examined the prop and lo and behold,
Every blade had a nasty crack at the base close to the vari pitch hub,about 2"
long....water ingress and freezing damage obviously.
I rest my case.
Andy Cullum.
Sent from my iPhone
On 6 Jul 2013, at 00:28, "Fred Klein" wrote:
>
> Sounds to me like this ship would deserve full sand bagging for checking POS
and NEG G-loading before flight test...
>
> On Jul 5, 2013, at 11:33 AM, andrew cullum wrote:
>
>> The aircraft I saw here in the U.K.at first
>> Looked ok,but on closer inspection,it was obvious it was in a sorry state,with
>> Quite a few blisters mid-way on the D-box on the wing,..just where you don't
want to see them.
>> So,it looks like it would require major strip dry out at 35-40 c dehumidifiers,
>> Silica gel etc,and even then there could
>> Be underlying freezing damage to the structure,which would require investigation
before any re-painting was
>> carried out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject:
Re: windscreen de-fogging
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
You might want to try a couple of the 12v brushless DC fans, they range in
size from 30mm up to about 200mm
They move a lot of air for their size, like the ones you find in your
computer to ventilate the case
I had two network file servers running inside a closed cupboard total load
of about 1000w with a hole in the bottom
Back of the cupboard and one 100mm brushless DC fan to extract the air at
the top and didn't have an issue with them overheating
Worth a look at least, they normally run about $10 each, or free if you can
get your hands on a couple of old computers and pull them apart
To get the fans out of the power supply's
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2x-Brushless-DC-Cooling-Fan-12V-120mm-x-120mm-x-2
5m-/180729347608?pt=AU_Components&hash=item2a144efe18
this link just goes to one I found on ebay no doubt you could find your own
regards
craig
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject:
Re: windscreen de-fogging
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
Ira, I have a comparable system to keep my Blue Mountain
EFIS happy, although my fan has inlet above pax feet and
outlet through a dozen holes blowing on to pilot screen.
Moderately effective as demister, but EFIS starts to
complain when temps get up into vicinity of 35C (95 in
your old units). I have found that laying a layer of 5mm
neoprene with foil on one side, across top of panel (which
is painted dark blue for visibility) cuts out direct sun
heating and addresses the problem. So I have that Neoprene
sheet available in the back and use it intermittently in
exceptionally hot conditions
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
"rampil" wrote:
>
>
> i have read the discussion on the issue of defogging and
>it appears that
> are no actual answers out there yet regarding airflow,
>temperature, etc.
>
> I will add my meager data to the pool
>
> My bird has a Blue Mountain EFIS 4 series which shuts
>down at temps
> above abt 144F. I have a 24 cfm fan in a convective
>tower directly
> above the EFIS leading into a 3 in louver directed into
>the plexi.
> On a 90F sunny day as so many local days are here on
>Long Island,
> without the fan, the EFIS will blackout within an hour
>of the plane out
> of the hangar, flying or not. The installed fan slows
>the inexorable rise somewhat
> say by 15 min to overheat. Clearly unacceptable cooling.
>However,
> it has actually cleared plexi condensation in two
>instances where it existed,
> in about 5 minutes (this was light grey mist, not
>dripping condensation).
>
> As I contemplate my move to much warmer clime, i will
>need to
> re-engineer the cooling. These little muffin fans are
>not likely to be useful
> even if ganged together. High velocity outside air is
>probably the best answer. Actual flight testing is
>needed.
>
> As usual, your mileage will vary
>
> Ira
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404012#404012
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Duncan & Ami" <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net>
Subject:
windscreen de-fogging
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
I took an air feed off the top of one of the side NACA ventilators,
primarily to squirt cool air over the back of the Terra transponder (which
(and the radios too) don't appreciate being cooked behind the standard
sealed Europa panel). There are slots cut in the top of the panel below the
bottom of the windscreen. It's not foolproof for demisting on the ground
(but a wiping cloth is!), but it does keep mist cleared in flight. I had one
computer fan previously, which worked similarly, but I took it out (heavy,
noisy, power consumer).
DMcF.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 04 July 2013 18:12
Subject: Europa-List: windscreen de-fogging
Gentlemen,
I'm attempting to select a couple of computer fans to be mounted louvers in
the top of the instrument panel module for the purpose of de-fogging the
windscreen...I'm uncertain as to what cfm ratings or sizes will do the job.
If anyone can pass on their experience w/ what amount of airflow is
sufficient...or insufficient...I'd be grateful
I suspect that my local climate in the Pacific NW of the US is similar to
conditions in UK.
Thanks in advance,
Fred
A-194
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: windscreen de-fogging
From:
"rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
David,
Thank you very much! Insulating reflective foam.
An Excellent suggestion :)
Now, if I can just figure out how to keep myself from cooking in the cabin ....
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404042#404042
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Outside aircraft
From:
"graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
I can't understand the motivation for these threads, this and the one re G KITS,
unless I am being thick it sounds like someone has wandered up to someone elses
plane seen letters faded etc and proceeded to have a public, in print for
all time, slagging off of it and its state. Is this a good way to carry on? This
doesnt sound like the europa forum to me. Even if there were facts rather than
views it wouldnt be fair.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404070#404070
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
Subject:
Fuel tank question
After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
concerned.
Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
Thanks in advance!!
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>
Subject:
Angle of Incidence
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
>
Gidday,
Spent 15:00 strapped to an aeroplane but thought I should at least say thank you
for everyone's input regarding this AOI issue before having a big sleep. I have
yet to read all the replies and digest everything but I am miles ahead with
the input.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
From:
andrew cullum <asc23111964(at)hotmail.co.uk>
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
Hi Andrew,
One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are going to
use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at least
6 weeks?
The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to be in
the new one.
Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this pre-soaking?
As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a good idea,I'm sure
that Bud can help you out.
Best Regards
Andy Cullum.
Sent from my iPhone
On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote:
>
> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
> concerned.
>
> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>
> Thanks in advance!!
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject:
windscreen de-fogging
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
The 120mm brushless dc fan I linked to yesterday was supposed to move 25 CFM
and draw about .4 of an amp
Noise level 25db doesn't say what the weight is, but past experience I would
say it would be around 100g
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
From:
Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
Andrew,
What I did.
1. make a cradle of 2, locally 3 bid:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=89148
The idea is: good support without local bonding / deformation stresses
Put in the cradle / tank combination as the manual describes for the
bare tank:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=89319
No glues / epoxies on the tank.
The treated tank (forgot which gas exactly) swells less, but now bonds
well to epoxies, making the unmodified original way of installing unwise.
2. put in lock-up EPP strips before putting the cradle / tank
combination in:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=89154http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=89398
The idea is: minimize motion.
3. after bonding de cockpit into the canoe fill the space between cradle
and canoe with 2-component reasonably heavy polyurethane foam through
the fuel outlet access holes (calibrate the action beforehand to avoid
the tunnel and the exposed outboard tank surfaces)
This makes a port sandwich and a starboard sandwich - my version (Ron
Parigoris' rather) of Bud's cork.
The idea is: make the stresses still more distributed and the whole
installation stronger.
Jan de Jong
I have been on the verge of putting the top on for a while.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 06, 2013
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
From:
rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Andrew
"The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like solicit
opinions from anyone who can give me some insights."
Here's my attempt at keeping the fuel inside the tank:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=28688
Scuffed tunnel, 3 BID, plastic sheet and injected foam to support.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Duncan & Ami" <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net>
Subject:
Fuel tank question
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back
over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the
initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.
The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.
DMcF
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum
Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question
-->
Hi Andrew,
One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are
going to
use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at
least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to
be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this
pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a
good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum.
Sent from my iPhone
On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote:
> -->
>
> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
> concerned.
>
> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>
> Thanks in advance!!
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
From:
DAVID JOYCE <stranfaer(at)btinternet.com>
Subject:
Re: Outside aircraft
Agreed..................=0A-=0AWe will all be able to criticise another a
ircraft if we want too, there but for the grace of God go I=0A-=0Afrom th
e other one!=0A=0ASent to you from David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com=0A=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.
co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 6 July 2013, 20:2
4=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Outside aircraft=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List me
ssage posted by: "graeme bird" =0A=0AI can't understand
the motivation for these threads, this and the one re G KITS, unless I am
being thick it sounds like someone has wandered up to someone elses plane s
een letters faded etc and proceeded to have a public, in print for all time
, slagging off of it and its state. Is this a good way to carry on? This do
esnt sound like the europa forum to me. Even if there were facts rather tha
n views it wouldnt be fair.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Cla
ssic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W=0ANewby: 75 hours 18 months =0Ag(at)gdbmk.co.
uk=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the
attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank
can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able
to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am
gathering from these discussions.
More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is
made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,
LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat
familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different
materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and
nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different
polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever
figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote:
>
> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back
> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the
> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.
> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.
>
> DMcF
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum
> Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question
>
>
> -->
>
> Hi Andrew,
> One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are
> going to
> use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at
> least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
> With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to
> be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this
> pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a
> good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote:
>
>> -->
>>
>> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
>> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
>> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
>> concerned.
>>
>> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
>> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
>> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
>> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
From:
Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they
confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
The finished treated tank had a severe frosted finish.... an indication that the
level of treatment was indeed higher than the factory's and I am hoping I will
have less swelling issues down the road.
Cheers,
Pete
On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the
> attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank
> can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able
> to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am
> gathering from these discussions.
>
> More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is
> made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,
> LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat
> familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different
> materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and
> nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different
> polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever
> figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote:
>>
>> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back
>> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the
>> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.
>> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.
>>
>> DMcF
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum
>> Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53
>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question
>>
>>
>> -->
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>> One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are
>> going to
>> use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at
>> least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
>> With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to
>> be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this
>> pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a
>> good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote:
>>
>>> -->
>>>
>>> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
>>> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
>>> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
>>> concerned.
>>>
>>> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
>>> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
>>> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
>>> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance!!
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
Thanks Pete. I am just about to embark on that route. I haven't called
them yet, but I am considering Fluoro Seal (http://www.fluoroseal.com)
if they are willing to take small jobs. They have a facility that is
within an hour driving from me.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Pete wrote:
>
> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfit, they
confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
>
> The finished treated tank had a severe frosted finish.... an indication that
the level of treatment was indeed higher than the factory's and I am hoping I
will have less swelling issues down the road.
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
>
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for all the ideas. The problem, as I understand now, is the
>> attachment mechanism, and not necessarily the swelling. If the tank
>> can be supported without bonding its surfaces, then it should be able
>> to relieve the stresses as it expands and contracts. That's what I am
>> gathering from these discussions.
>>
>> More puzzling is, it seems there is no agreement on what the tank is
>> made of. Just in the last few emails, I've heard Polypropylene, HDPE,
>> LDPE all mentioned, and Yerly's article says it is PTFE. I am somewhat
>> familiar with different polymers, and these are all very different
>> materials. I doubt it is PTFE because it is super expensive and
>> nothing will stick to it. I know a chemical test to identify different
>> polymers, but I would need a small chunk of the material. If I ever
>> figure that out, I will make sure to post my results here.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote:
>>>
>>> The tanks are low density polyethylene, I understand. And they shrink back
>>> over time when left empty (but not in my experience by as much as the
>>> initial expansion). Fluoridated tanks may be different.
>>> The Kitfox company understood this problem in 1990.
>>>
>>> DMcF
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew cullum
>>> Sent: 06 July 2013 22:53
>>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank question
>>>
>>>
>>> -->
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>> One question,have you filled your fuel tank with a mix of fuels you are
>>> going to
>>> use,and contained the tank with a sturdy wooden frame,and left it for at
>>> least 6 weeks? The poly-propylene apparently expands by about 10 per cent
>>> With the addition of fuel,this was in the old manual,but doesn't appear to
>>> be in the new one. Could it be that tanks that have cracked haven't had this
>>> pre-soaking? As for the cork at the bottom of the fuselage,sounds like a
>>> good idea,I'm sure that Bud can help you out. Best Regards Andy Cullum.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 6 Jul 2013, at 20:47, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote:
>>>
>>>> -->
>>>>
>>>> After a one year pause, I am getting back into building. I am near the
>>>> stage of bonding the fuel tank into the CM. I read a lot of
>>>> discussions about tank swellings and cracking, so I am a bit
>>>> concerned.
>>>>
>>>> Doing a google search, I came across a fuel tank mod document written
>>>> by Bud Yerly where he suggests using a cork pad in the fuselage to
>>>> support the tank. The details are a bit unclear to me, so I would like
>>>> solicit opinions from anyone who can give me some insights.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote:
> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial
outfit, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
Pete...and your kit # is...?...
thanks,
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
Oops...should have included it in my sig....
a239
Indeed it *was* factory fourinated, albeit i have to assume to a lower level
.
The industrial folks who I used had different levels, the highest of which i
s used by the auto industry for their plastic fuel tanks, and is the level I
had requested. Lower levels are used by the shampoo co's :-)
Cheers,
Pete
Ps- I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years a
go to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $
35 :-)
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
a239
On Jul 7, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote:
>
>> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfi
t, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
>
> Pete...and your kit # is...?...
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
From:
Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
PS - the Europa factory obviously treats prior to finish cuts as well.....
which pretty well negates the value of the process imho.
Cheers,
Pete
a239
On Jul 7, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Pete wrote:
>
>> When I had my tank and cobra (re/post) fluorinated by an industrial outfi
t, they confirmed it to be LDPE, fwiw.
>
> Pete...and your kit # is...?...
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already
installed, w/ tank buried within of course...Fred
On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:
> I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of
years ago to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was
a trivial $35 :-)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks
(#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was
$300 and per unit cost is $35. If three or four of us can join, the
cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it
anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could
be worth thousands of dollars.
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
> Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed,
> w/ tank buried within of course...Fred
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:
>
> I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago
> to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35
> :-)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date:
Jul 07, 2013
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
From:
brian long <i36u42(at)gmail.com>
I am about to embark on a tank replacement. I don't have the tank yet but
I'm interested, so contact me and tell me more.
Brian Long
A124
On Sunday, July 7, 2013, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> >
>
> So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks
> (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was
> $300 and per unit cost is $35. If three or four of us can join, the
> cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it
> anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could
> be worth thousands of dollars.
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein >
> wrote:
> > Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already
> installed,
> > w/ tank buried within of course...Fred
> >
> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:
> >
> > I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years
> ago
> > to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial
> $35
> > :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
On Saturday, 914 powered XS, G-IRON took to the sky for the first time
following a major rebuild in the capable hands of owner Terry Clark.
In blistering sunshine and slack wind, G-IRON left the Fairoaks runway
at 14.30 for a faultless one-hour sortie.
The second flight with your trusty scribe onboard to log flight
parameters lasted one hour and forty minutes.
The plane is beautifully balanced and flies hands-off straight and level.
G-IRON has been built to a very high standard by Terry and Ian Rickard
and is a credit to them both (pictured below).
Nigel
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject:
G-IRON flies
Date:
Jul 08, 2013
Well done Ian.
Pleased for you .
Best regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk
Sent: 08 July 2013 08:41
Subject: Europa-List: G-IRON flies
On Saturday, 914 powered XS, G-IRON took to the sky for the first time
following a major rebuild in the capable hands of owner Terry Clark.
In blistering sunshine and slack wind, G-IRON left the Fairoaks runway at
14.30 for a faultless one-hour sortie.
The second flight with your trusty scribe onboard to log flight parameters
lasted one hour and forty minutes.
The plane is beautifully balanced and flies hands-off straight and level.
G-IRON has been built to a very high standard by Terry and Ian Rickard and
is a credit to them both (pictured below).
Nigel
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi,
I have my Europa stored in the trailer and rig it any time Im flying. Newly I have
the problem, that the starboard flap pin doesnt slide in easy as was always
the case before (for two years at any temperature). It feels like it cants and
then after wiggling the wing up and down, forth and back it suddenly skips
in completely. I always grease those connections very well and also the ring inside
the flap operation tube, that catches the pin, is movable as on the other
side.
Flap operation when rigged is normal.
Has anyone of you experienced something similar? Where do I have to focus on?
Roland
PH-ZTI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404171#404171
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi! Roland,
I too assemble and dismantle my a/c every time I fly, I also have occasionally
a stubborn entry flap drive pin, even though the flap close out has a tapered
guide tube to point the flap in the correct direction. I have to ensure that the
"Rose Bearing"(You are calling it a "ring") in the end of the flap drive tube
is freely centred before I push the wing into place. If I don't do that and
the pin fails to engage the bearing it flexes the flap outwards and "cuts" into
the aileron close out flange binding them together. ( an extremely dangerous
condition if you were to go fly. Tim Wert did but by some very careful airmanship
managed to land the aircraft safe.) I suggest that you thoroughly degrease
and clean the bearing and re-lubricate it with oil in preference to grease,
But above all before flying ensure it is properly engaged and that the flap
outboard end is NOT FOULED INTO THE AILERON LOCKING THE TWO TOGETHER). Although
I have never has it happen on the port wing I would suggest that it would be
likely there also.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roland
Sent: 08 July 2013 10:11
Subject: Europa-List: Starboard flap pin doesnt engage easy any longer why?
Hi,
I have my Europa stored in the trailer and rig it any time Im flying. Newly I have
the problem, that the starboard flap pin doesnt slide in easy as was always
the case before (for two years at any temperature). It feels like it cants and
then after wiggling the wing up and down, forth and back it suddenly skips
in completely. I always grease those connections very well and also the ring inside
the flap operation tube, that catches the pin, is movable as on the other
side.
Flap operation when rigged is normal.
Has anyone of you experienced something similar? Where do I have to focus on?
Roland
PH-ZTI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404171#404171
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: G-IRON flies
From:
Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date:
Jul 08, 2013
Good work guys!
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Jul 8, 2013, at 2:41 AM, nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk wrote:
On Saturday, 914 powered XS, G-IRON took to the sky for the first time
following a major rebuild in the capable hands of owner Terry Clark.
In blistering sunshine and slack wind, G-IRON left the Fairoaks runway
at 14.30 for a faultless one-hour sortie.
The second flight with your trusty scribe onboard to log flight
parameters lasted one hour and forty minutes.
The plane is beautifully balanced and flies hands-off straight and
level.
G-IRON has been built to a very high standard by Terry and Ian Rickard
and is a credit to them both (pictured below).
Nigel
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Mike Gamble" <mp.gamble(at)talktalk.net>
Subject:
G-IRON flies
Date:
Jul 08, 2013
Great news Ian and Terry. Looks like you've built another good 'un.
Look forward to seeing you both around.
Well done and look after this one!
Regards
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Roland,
The ''eyeball'' ball socket is held captive by a ring [ collar ], if the r
ing has moved outboard, it will allow the eyeball to swivel too far, that i
s why the pin will jam in the hole.
Find a steel tube that just clears the eyeball, but is smaller than the soc
ket housing.
Align the eyeball hole parallel to the flap tube.
Get someone to hold a piece of wood against their leg and bear against the
port side of the flap tube, place the steel tube onto the collar and strike
the tube with a hammer.
When the ring is engaged deeper, the eyeball will only swivel a very small
amount.
You must of course use a special Aircraft Hammer, I have these for sale at
only =C2=A3120 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de>
Sent: Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:11 am
Subject: Europa-List: Starboard flap pin doesn=C3=A2=C2=C2=99t engage ea
sy any longer =C3=A2=C2=C2=93 why?
Hi,
I have my Europa stored in the trailer and rig it any time I=C3=A2=C2=C2
=99m flying. Newly I
have the problem, that the starboard flap pin doesn=C3=A2=C2=C2=99t slid
e in easy as was
always the case before (for two years at any temperature). It feels like it
cants and then after wiggling the wing up and down, forth and back it sudde
nly
skips in completely. I always grease those connections very well and also t
he
ring inside the flap operation tube, that catches the pin, is movable as on
the
other side.
Flap operation when rigged is normal.
Has anyone of you experienced something similar? Where do I have to focus o
n?
Roland
PH-ZTI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404171#404171
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
From:
Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Date:
Jul 08, 2013
Hi Andrew,
If you do go ahead with it in the next month or two, and if you were interested
(ie-if you had to ship further away than expected) I could ship my small 3Gallon
tank to you in my Europa tank crate which you could then use, and when completed
you could ship (at my cost of course) my little tank to an address in ogdensburg
packaged simply in a cardboard box.
Just a thought. I could send you some pics of the crate. If I were to participate,
I'd have to bring the tank to osh and am leaving on the 23rd :-)
Btw, great to hear you resumed you build! Funny how life keeps getting in the
way.... Here too of course.
Cheers,
Pete
On Jul 7, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
> So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks
> (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was
> $300 and per unit cost is $35. If three or four of us can join, the
> cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it
> anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could
> be worth thousands of dollars.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
>> Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed,
>> w/ tank buried within of course...Fred
>>
>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:
>>
>> I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago
>> to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35
>> :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Fuel tank question
From:
Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Date:
Jul 08, 2013
Apologies to the list......email was meant for Andrew only...
Cheers,
Pete
On Jul 8, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Pete wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> If you do go ahead with it in the next month or two, and if you were interested
(ie-if you had to ship further away than expected) I could ship my small 3Gallon
tank to you in my Europa tank crate which you could then use, and when completed
you could ship (at my cost of course) my little tank to an address in
ogdensburg packaged simply in a cardboard box.
>
> Just a thought. I could send you some pics of the crate. If I were to participate,
I'd have to bring the tank to osh and am leaving on the 23rd :-)
>
>
> Btw, great to hear you resumed you build! Funny how life keeps getting in the
way.... Here too of course.
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
>
>
> On Jul 7, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
>>
>> So let me extend this offer to all. I plan to fluorinate my tanks
>> (#A178) sometime in the next month. As per Pete, the setup cost was
>> $300 and per unit cost is $35. If three or four of us can join, the
>> cost will become really trivial. But regardless, I plan to do it
>> anyway. The pictures I saw of swelling tanks makes me think this could
>> be worth thousands of dollars.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
>>> Pete...your kind offer was moot for me in that my CM was already installed,
>>> w/ tank buried within of course...Fred
>>>
>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete wrote:
>>>
>>> I am kinda surprised that there were no other takers a couple of years ago
>>> to split the min order cost ...... Since the per tank cost was a trivial $35
>>> :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
Richard Iddon <riddon(at)sent.com>
Subject:
Whats happened to DOTH's
Date:
Jul 08, 2013
Having just got my bird back in the air after various delays this year, I was wondering
where to go and it struck me that I have not seen any Drop of the Hat
fly ins on the forum this year, unless I have missed them. The weather looks
great this week and I note that there is a free landing voucher for Swansea in
the July issue of the Light Aircraft mag so am proposing to head there on Thursday
for lunch. Look forward to meeting anyone else who can make it. PPR required.
Swansea Radio 119.700
Richard Iddon.
G-RIXS
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject:
D2D
Date:
Jul 09, 2013
Just to say that' S*d's Law was in operation on Sunday. In
the middle of the best Wx the UK has seen for months,
possibly years I got up at 3.30am in Prestwick to find it
raining & cloudbase at 300ft!! Couldn't take off before
10.00am by which time it was too late to do anything
except fly home and watch the tennis.
Pity! The preliminary trials had suggested it
was quite possible for me to fly the 2550nm course at an
average of 150kts with just two brief refuelling stops,
thus upstaging a Hawk Jet, a Mooney and a Beech Baron,
previous holders of the record for longest distance flown.
I had hoped that this would raise the flag for Europa,
Permit aircraft and Monos - the latter in response to
someone who recently asked "What are monos good for?" - I
don't think a Trike could have hoped to do this!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
"Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net>
Subject:
D2D
Date:
Jul 09, 2013
Hi! David .
Sorry you didn't make it but why not a weekday ?
Regards
Bob H.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce
Sent: 09 July 2013 12:36
Subject: Europa-List: D2D
-->
Just to say that' S*d's Law was in operation on Sunday. In the middle of the
best Wx the UK has seen for months, possibly years I got up at 3.30am in
Prestwick to find it raining & cloudbase at 300ft!! Couldn't take off
before 10.00am by which time it was too late to do anything except fly home
and watch the tennis.
Pity! The preliminary trials had suggested it was quite possible
for me to fly the 2550nm course at an average of 150kts with just two brief
refuelling stops, thus upstaging a Hawk Jet, a Mooney and a Beech Baron,
previous holders of the record for longest distance flown.
I had hoped that this would raise the flag for Europa, Permit aircraft and
Monos - the latter in response to someone who recently asked "What are
monos good for?" - I don't think a Trike could have hoped to do this!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Whats happened to DOTH's
From:
"Bill & Sue" <Billandsue(at)billbell.co.uk>
Date:
Jul 09, 2013
We flew in to Swansea today and it is very nice too- but no cafe.
Sitting in the sunshine on the grass outside is fine but there appear to be no
facilities (not so much as a chair!) when the cafe is shut. The firemen made us
a very nice cuppa and told us the cafe is open Fiday, Saturday and other times
at random. It would be worth checking that the with the tower when ringing
for PPR that the cafe is open- apparently they tell by the smell of bacon cooking.
We did warn them of a possible influx of Europas so perhaps they will make an
extra effort!
Enjoy the outing.
Bill & Sue
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404334#404334
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Group
Anyone have any idea why both of my FL-16 Flap Hinge Arms have a hole on the square
end?:
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!1655&authkey=!AF7B8FVUzjNaSt8
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404403#404403
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Foot well got burned!
From:
"rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date:
Jul 10, 2013
Hi Group
I accidentally burned my starboard foot-well!
I replaced my lanterns alkaline battery (EverReady) ~ Christmas 2010. It hasn't
seen any use since then.
I sit down in front of my Europa XS Mono to study the undercarriage mounting frame,
need some light. No problem, I grab my lantern that I always store with the
lens up (in case it is left on), turn it on and use it for 5 or so minutes.
I turn it off and rest it on my starboard foot-well, again with the lens up.
After about 10 minutes I pick it up, turn it on to use it again and see what I
think is water on my foot-well, it's turning the Phenolic resin black!
I'm not sure just what leaked out of the battery, but it was water clear and had
the viscosity of 3 in 1 oil.
I was able to get off perhaps 1/2 of the damage, I tried water, alcohol and acetone
with scotchbright.
Anyway the resin sure did react quick to whatever it was that leaked out.:
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!1656&authkey=!AEWLOllC2BXrnI0
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404404#404404
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Any idea what hole in FL-16 Flap Hing Arm is for?
From:
Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date:
Jul 10, 2013
Hi Ron,
Not the right place for a hole to connect to the flap cross tube. Nope, no idea
why that hole is there. If it were me, I'd just ignore it. You are free to
do as you will.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Jul 10, 2013, at 1:51 PM, rparigoris wrote:
Hi Group
Anyone have any idea why both of my FL-16 Flap Hinge Arms have a hole on the square
end?:
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!1655&authkey=!AF7B8FVUzjNaSt8
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Any idea what hole in FL-16 Flap Hing Arm is for?
From:
Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Date:
Jul 10, 2013
Ron...reading on p.9 of chap. 28M:
> Step 14
> Attach the hinge arms FL16 to the brackets FL18 then swing them up to engage
between the two pairs of lugs that are welded to the cross-tube, rotating the
tube so that the lugs and the hinge arms are in line. Clamp the lugs and hinge
arms together then, using the two small diameter holes in each lug as a centre,
drill right through with a 4.8 mm drill. Insert an AN3-5A bolt in each hole
and reposition the clamp if necessary before drilling the second hole then, placing
on an AN960-10L washer, tighten each bolt up with an MS21042-3 nut and
remove the clamps. The flaps will now extend and retract together and only require
linking to the landing gear retraction mechanism.
Manual indicates you should have 2 small holes...not 1...what size is your hole?
I don't recall if my FL 16s had one or two holes...
F.
On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:51 AM, rparigoris wrote:
>
> Hi Group
>
> Anyone have any idea why both of my FL-16 Flap Hinge Arms have a hole on the
square end?:
> https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!1655&authkey=!AF7B8FVUzjNaSt8
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404403#404403
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 02JWGXHlz) is spam:
> Spam: https://antispam.roaringpenguin.com/canit/b.php?i=02JWGXHlz&m=b15dd3cf2289&t
130710&c=s
> Not spam: https://antispam.roaringpenguin.com/canit/b.php?i=02JWGXHlz&m=b15dd3cf2289&t
130710&c=n
> Forget vote: https://antispam.roaringpenguin.com/canit/b.php?i=02JWGXHlz&m=b15dd3cf2289&t
130710&c=f
> ------------------------------------------------------
> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Re: Any idea what hole in FL-16 Flap Hing Arm is for?
From:
Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Date:
Jul 10, 2013
OOPS...misread the manual...the "two small holes" are in the lugs, not in the FL
16s...in truth, I don't recall my FL 16s having ANY holes...
On Jul 10, 2013, at 1:26 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
>
> Ron...reading on p.9 of chap. 28M:
>
>> Step 14
>> Attach the hinge arms FL16 to the brackets FL18 then swing them up to engage
between the two pairs of lugs that are welded to the cross-tube, rotating the
tube so that the lugs and the hinge arms are in line. Clamp the lugs and hinge
arms together then, using the two small diameter holes in each lug as a centre,
drill right through with a 4.8 mm drill. Insert an AN3-5A bolt in each hole
and reposition the clamp if necessary before drilling the second hole then,
placing on an AN960-10L washer, tighten each bolt up with an MS21042-3 nut and
remove the clamps. The flaps will now extend and retract together and only require
linking to the landing gear retraction mechanism.
>
> Manual indicates you should have 2 small holes...not 1...what size is your hole?
>
> I don't recall if my FL 16s had one or two holes...
>
> F.
>
> On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:51 AM, rparigoris wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Group
>>
>> Anyone have any idea why both of my FL-16 Flap Hinge Arms have a hole on the
square end?:
>> https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!1655&authkey=!AF7B8FVUzjNaSt8
>>
>> Thx.
>> Ron Parigoris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404403#404403
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 04JWIxqCg) is spam:
> Spam: https://antispam.roaringpenguin.com/canit/b.php?i=04JWIxqCg&m=b801e1d25aea&t
130710&c=s
> Not spam: https://antispam.roaringpenguin.com/canit/b.php?i=04JWIxqCg&m=b801e1d25aea&t
130710&c=n
> Forget vote: https://antispam.roaringpenguin.com/canit/b.php?i=04JWIxqCg&m=b801e1d25aea&t
130710&c=f
> ------------------------------------------------------
> END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS
________________________________________________________________________________
From:
<f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject:
Europa Ownres website
Date:
Jul 10, 2013
I am so elegantly infuriated to take the time to write my
frustrations with the asinine subject website. Every time I try to get what
I paid for, I am frustrated by the kindergarten precautions to entry. I had
to fill out my name and address FIVE times to get to where I could email to
acquire a new password. I have more than one address and cannot keep a list
of all the myriad passwords and names and addresses these children require -
when in fact they had my name and address on application - PLUS a request to
remember them for future application - which they DID NOT.
What is the problem? Cannot they tell who's emailing them? Why
are they unable to acknowledge receipt of one email? They got the money -
it's time to belly up to the bar.
Ferg Kyle
eight thousand passwords
________________________________________________________________________________
Nigel,
I too have specialized tool for setting these bearings, but I found your
price a bit high for a lowly hammer, that's why we have a highly refined
tool called a High Inertia Fine Adjustment Tool (HIFAT) for only 150.
For others I have a less expensive Government Surplus High Acceleration
Mass Mechanical Error Reducer for those fine adjustments at only 56.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Neville Eyre<mailto:neveyre(at)aol.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Starboard flap pin doesn=C3=A2=C2=C2=99t
engage easy any longer =C3=A2=C2=C2=93 why?
Hi Roland,
The ''eyeball'' ball socket is held captive by a ring [ collar ], if
the ring has moved outboard, it will allow the eyeball to swivel too
far, that is why the pin will jam in the hole.
Find a steel tube that just clears the eyeball, but is smaller than
the socket housing.
Align the eyeball hole parallel to the flap tube.
Get someone to hold a piece of wood against their leg and bear against
the port side of the flap tube, place the steel tube onto the collar and
strike the tube with a hammer.
When the ring is engaged deeper, the eyeball will only swivel a very
small amount.
You must of course use a special Aircraft Hammer, I have these for
sale at only =C2=A3120 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de>
To: europa-list
Sent: Mon, Jul 8, 2013 10:11 am
Subject: Europa-List: Starboard flap pin doesn=C3=A2=C2=C2=99t
engage easy any longer =C3=A2=C2=C2=93 why?
>
Hi,
I have my Europa stored in the trailer and rig it any time
I=C3=A2=C2=C2=99m flying. Newly I
have the problem, that the starboard flap pin doesn=C3=A2=C2=C2=99t
slide in easy as was
always the case before (for two years at any temperature). It feels like
it
cants and then after wiggling the wing up and down, forth and back it
suddenly
skips in completely. I always grease those connections very well and
also the
ring inside the flap operation tube, that catches the pin, is movable as
on the
other side.
Flap operation when rigged is normal.
Has anyone of you experienced something similar? Where do I have to
focus on?
Roland
PH-ZTI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404171#404171
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404171#404171>
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
avigator?Europa-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
________________________________________________________________________________
The hole n the square end are supposed to be to suit the brackets from the c
ross tube. So, it's a rogue hole, and if it came from Europa, as I imagine i
t must of as a fast build kit, with the bearing possibly pre installed as we
ll, get a new one. I don't think you can use it due to the proximity of the w
rong hole, compromising the bracket.
I undid my temporary setup and now will use some sort of nylon to avoid the f
riction scored marks in my setup.
Hope this he's.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sent from my iPad
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&
Chapter 13-07-10&Archive=Europa
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________
________
>
>
> Subject: Europa-List: Any idea what hole in FL-16 Flap Hing Arm is for?
> From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>
> Hi Group
>
> Anyone have any idea why both of my FL-16 Flap Hinge Arms have a hole on t
he square
> end?:
> https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!1655&authkey=!A
F7B8FVUzjNaSt8
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404403#404403
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________
________
>
>
> Subject: Europa-List: Foot well got burned!
> From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>
> Hi Group
>
> I accidentally burned my starboard foot-well!
>
> I replaced my lanterns alkaline battery (EverReady) ~ Christmas 2010. It h
asn't
> seen any use since then.
>
> I sit down in front of my Europa XS Mono to study the undercarriage mounti
ng frame,
> need some light. No problem, I grab my lantern that I always store with th
e
> lens up (in case it is left on), turn it on and use it for 5 or so minutes
.
>
>
> I turn it off and rest it on my starboard foot-well, again with the lens u
p.
>
> After about 10 minutes I pick it up, turn it on to use it again and see wh
at I
> think is water on my foot-well, it's turning the Phenolic resin black!
>
> I'm not sure just what leaked out of the battery, but it was water clear a
nd had
> the viscosity of 3 in 1 oil.
>
> I was able to get off perhaps 1/2 of the damage, I tried water, alcohol an
d acetone
> with scotchbright.
>
> Anyway the resin sure did react quick to whatever it was that leaked out.:
> https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!1656&authkey=!A
EWLOllC2BXrnI0
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404404#404404
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________
________
>
>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Any idea what hole in FL-16 Flap Hing Arm is for
?
> From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
>
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> Not the right place for a hole to connect to the flap cross tube. Nope, n
o idea
> why that hole is there. If it were me, I'd just ignore it. You are free t
o
> do as you will.
>
> Blue skies & tailwinds,
> Bob Borger
> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
> Cel: 817-992-1117
> rlborger(at)mac.com
>
> On Jul 10, 2013, at 1:51 PM, rparigoris wrote
:
>
>
> Hi Group
>
> Anyone have any idea why both of my FL-16 Flap Hinge Arms have a hole on t
he square
> end?:
> https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=550FC20DBDDB521D!1655&authkey=!A
F7B8FVUzjNaSt8
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 __
