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September 23, 2013 - October 14, 2013

Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw Sent: 23 September 2013 19:20
Subject: Rotax 914 CHT probes
Gidday, Can someone please remind me of the CHT sensing options for the Rotax 914? I know under spark plug sensors can be used, but that it can effect spark plug torque, so I am interested in whether there is a port on a cylinder etc that can be used accurately, or whether water temperature is the better method of monitoring engine temperature health. Thanks in anticipation. Regards Tony Renshaw 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa-List:
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Date: Sep 23, 2013
Raimo Toivio wrote: >Frans & Ilona; > >Thanks for sharing=2E The Alps are really beautiful =93 so far we have >look ed them only from the ground by walk, train or car=2E We wish you >will giv e us some current mountain flight training Better ask a local; we are no e xperts, but managed so far to stay alive=2E We are very cautious and only f ly in or above the Alps if the weather is stable=2E We took a lesson here a nd learned some basics in mountain flying=2E A good book is the book about mountain flying from Fletcher Anderson=2E Read that and you know enough to understand your limits=2E =93 you will get from >us some basics f or remote flying=2E That would be great! Coming back! Also shoreless se as are >beautiful like Baltic Sea or how do you like? This one is @ FL80 =2E How >about windmills - aren=C2=B4t they like The Beasts from The Revela tion? Great pictures! Especially the windmills=2E >BTW did you know that you have a nice night club in Tampere? Ilona & >Villisika=2E Maybe you won der what means =9CVillisika=9D ? A direct >translation is =9CA Wildpig=9D=2E Oh I can solve this mystery for you: see the a ttached picture I made today here at the beach in Losignje in Croatia=2E We took the wine with us but forgot the glasses=2E Anyway it shows the connec tion between wild pigs and Ilona=2E >Marke has started her Helicopter les sons and managed to levitate R44 >instantly=2E I thought she was about to solo in a fixed wing airplane? Frans >Marke & Raimo > >From: Frans Vel dman >Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 11:34 PM >To: Europa-list@matroni cs=2Ecom >Subject: Europa-List: > >@Raimo: The Alps are beautiful @FL115! Today we went to Croatia=2E >Probably our last "longer" trip this year=2E Just wanted to share=2E >Frans & Ilona -- Sent from my Android phone wi th K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2013
Subject: Re: Europa-List:
From: James Kelly <europajimkelly(at)gmail.com>
Hello Europa fliers, What's the best method to fill up your tanks ? Jimmy On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 9:10 PM, Frans Veldman wrot e: > > > Raimo Toivio wrote: > >> Frans & Ilona; >> >> Thanks for sharing. The Alps are really beautiful ' so far we have >> looked them only from the ground by walk, train or car. We wish you >> will give us some current mountain flight training > > > Better ask a local; we are no experts, but managed so far to stay alive. We are very cautious and only fly in or above the Alps if the weather is st able. We took a lesson here and learned some basics in mountain flying. > A good book is the book about mountain flying from Fletcher Anderson. Rea d that and you know enough to understand your limits. > > ' you will get from > >> us some basics for remote flying. > > > That would be great! > > Coming back! Also shoreless seas are > >> beautiful like Baltic Sea or how do you like? This one is @ FL80. How >> about windmills - aren=B4t they like The Beasts from The Revelation? > > > Great pictures! Especially the windmills. > > BTW did you know that you have a nice night club in Tampere? Ilona & >> Villisika. Maybe you wonder what means =93Villisika=94 ? A direct >> translation is =93A Wildpig=94. > > > Oh I can solve this mystery for you: see the attached picture I made toda y here at the beach in Losignje in Croatia. We took the wine with us but fo rgot the glasses. Anyway it shows the connection between wild pigs and Ilon a. > > Marke has started her Helicopter lessons and managed to levitate R44 >> instantly. > > > I thought she was about to solo in a fixed wing airplane? > > Frans > > > Marke & Raimo >> >> From: Frans Veldman >> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 11:34 PM >> To: Europa-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Europa-List: >> >> @Raimo: The Alps are beautiful @FL115! Today we went to Croatia. >> Probably our last "longer" trip this year. Just wanted to share. >> Frans & Ilona > > > -- > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeremy Fisher <jffisher(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Sealing the Windscreen and Side Windows
Date: Sep 23, 2013
I have glued my Europa side windows into the doors, as per the manual. However I do not see any mention of filling and sealing the joint between the window and the door frame. When I built my Lancair, we had a similar technique, but then filled the gap and put a strip of 2 bid over the frame and about the first 3/8 inch of the transparency. It is a lot of work, when you include all of the filling and painting. What has everyone else done? Is it not necessary to use a glass fiber strip to lock the transparency in? I would appreciate anyone's experience. Thanks. Jerry Fisher ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>
Subject: fin ribs too long
Date: Sep 23, 2013
My fin ribs (F20, F21, F22) all appear to be too long to fit in the positions called out in the manual. What's wrong? Can I fit them a bit lower? F20 (the bottom one) will need to have its nose cut off to butt against the rear bulkhead - is it OK to do that? in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fin ribs too long
From: Donald Cameron <fireflier(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Sep 23, 2013
Hi >From the europa club website CBM known corrections page gives dimensions as 4, 13 & 22 inches. These seemed to be correct when I installed my ribs last month. The front of the bottom rib has to be trimmed to fit against the rear bulkhead. Kind regards Donald Sent from my iPhone On 23 Sep 2013, at 22:55, Rowland Carson wrote: > > My fin ribs (F20, F21, F22) all appear to be too long to fit in the positions called out in the manual. What's wrong? Can I fit them a bit lower? F20 (the bottom one) will need to have its nose cut off to butt against the rear bulkhead - is it OK to do that? > > in friendship > > Rowland > > | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... > | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk > | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson > | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2013
Subject: Re: fin ribs too long
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Rowland The fit of my fin ribs was awful no matter what position I put them in. Resolve for perfect fit: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=35521 Side note, I have XS wings and fitting top panel found ribs were a very poor fit, resolve similar to fin resolve: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=37044 Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Windscreen and door gaps.
From: andrew cullum <asc23111964(at)hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Sep 24, 2013
Hi Jeremy, The windscreen and doors don't require Any bid overlay,as the Araldite 420 bond is very good. We simply filled the gap with Araldite 420/flox mix,carefully scraping off the excess with a blade to get the surface as flat as possible to leave a minimum amount of sanding when cured. Best regards Andy Cullum G-CGDH. Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fin ribs too long
From: "jglazener" <j.glazener(at)planet.nl>
Date: Sep 24, 2013
Hello Rowland, Same problem here. I just lowered them to a position and angle that they did fit, then marked positions for clecos on the port side by eye. The nose of the lower rib needs trimming but that is covered in the manual. Don't drill the starboard side because once you are working with the Araldite you will never find them again. Bond and cleco stbd in one go. http://europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=100799 The ribs are there to provide torsional stiffness to the fin and are not load carrying. Moving them around a bit shouldn't make any difference at all. They don't even need to exactly parallel. I would steer away from reinforcements other than the bond itself because that just adds weight. -------- Jeroen http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409115#409115 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Bliss
From: "goff" <goffmoore(at)aviators.net>
Date: Sep 25, 2013
Pleasure is sometimes so easily achieved. Blue skies, fluffy clouds, the sea, islands, fields and a little homebuilt Europa. Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4CAuoBoM1o Goff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409197#409197 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Bliss
Date: Sep 25, 2013
The quality of the film is stunning. I will have to see what Father Christmas can bring this year! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "goff" <goffmoore(at)aviators.net> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 5:31 PM Subject: Europa-List: Bliss > > Pleasure is sometimes so easily achieved. Blue skies, fluffy clouds, the > sea, islands, fields and a little homebuilt Europa. Enjoy: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4CAuoBoM1o > > Goff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409197#409197 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Bliss
Date: Sep 25, 2013
Brilliant footage - I need to get one of those (Go Pros). We purchased a VIO pov but no image stabiliser so totally useless in the Europa. Do you have an HD version of the clip. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of goff Sent: 25 September 2013 17:31 Subject: Europa-List: Bliss Pleasure is sometimes so easily achieved. Blue skies, fluffy clouds, the sea, islands, fields and a little homebuilt Europa. Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4CAuoBoM1o Goff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409197#409197 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2013
From: "john.greenhalgh1(at)sky.com" <john.greenhalgh1(at)sky.com>
Subject: Nose wheel spindle concentricity
I have noticed that the spindle located on my nose wheel fork is not concen tric to the fork casting.- i.e. The spindle is not located in the centre of the casting.- In my case the spindle centre is 3.5 mm to the rear.=0A =0AThe nose leg flange and bore is concentric.=0A=0AWhen all is assembled t here is a 3.5 mm crescent of machined surface visible to the rear and 3.5 m m crescent of friction plate/nose leg visible at the front (viewed from und erneath).=0A=0AI would be very pleased if my fellow Europa pilots could let me know if this lack of concentricity is common.=0A=0ARegards John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: Nose wheel spindle concentricity
Date: Sep 26, 2013
Mine was maybe 1.5mm, the friction plate ended up flush on the edge where yours in protruding Regards craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bliss
From: Bob Hitchcock <robert.hitchcock(at)virgin.net>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
Hi Goff Super quality. The panorama is great. Where is the camera position? You have solved the image shake issue. How? Is it a feature of the camera? Regards Bob On 25 Sep 2013, at 19:28, "Carl Pattinson" wrote: > > Brilliant footage - I need to get one of those (Go Pros). > > We purchased a VIO pov but no image stabiliser so totally useless in the > Europa. > > Do you have an HD version of the clip. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of goff > Sent: 25 September 2013 17:31 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Bliss > > > Pleasure is sometimes so easily achieved. Blue skies, fluffy clouds, the > sea, islands, fields and a little homebuilt Europa. Enjoy: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4CAuoBoM1o > > Goff > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409197#409197 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: No Title
From: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
"We wish you will give us some current mountain flight training" Sorry Raimo, no membership in the high altitude club for non turbos ;-) Congrats to Marke for her superb R 44 handling skills - what I have heard is, that the R 44 handling is not too easy. Best wishes Roland PH-ZTI XS Trigear 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409255#409255 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fin ribs too long
From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
On 23 Sep 2013, at 23:32, Donald Cameron wrote: >> From the europa club website CBM known corrections page gives dimensions as 4, 13 & 22 inches. > > These seemed to be correct when I installed my ribs last month. The front of the bottom rib has to be trimmed to fit against the rear bulkhead. Donald - thanks for that - I wasn't aware of that corrections page. The new numbers sound much more reasonable. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bliss
From: "goff" <goffmoore(at)aviators.net>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
Carl, Yes I do have the HD original. It's even better than the YouTube posting, which degrades the original a bit. Bob, I'm not sure what you mean by image shake. Do you mean vibration from the prop and the fuselage? The GroPro is mounted to the cabin roof, just aft of the seats. I don't think it has built in image stabilising software, so it must be my smooth flying!! If you mean the absence of prop strobing, that's down to a little neutral density filter popped inside the GoPro case in front of the lens. I cut a piece the size and shape of a one euro coin from a sheet of theatrical lighting filter acetate. Works wonders. Goff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409259#409259 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: No Title
Date: Sep 26, 2013
Hi Roland, what=B4s a minimum altitude which make sense when overflying The Alps? We feel comfortable to the FL 80 and have tested our poor non-turbo to the FL 170 (awful). She was still bravely climbing 100 ft/minute but I was finished. It is well flyable say to the FL 100-120 but I hate it is not so stable platform there any more. ******* OK, Roland, maybe no membership for us in the High Alt Club (HAC) but how is your membership in Mile High Club (MHC) ? I have to say we confirmed our old but trusty membership couple of times in the back cabin in our very privat AN-2 during the summers 2012 and 2013. Ask me nice maybe we can rent it for you but you have to find your company by yourself, because my wife will be sitting in the cockpit with me then (it is mandatory today to have a two people crew during AN-2 operations). Can you Roland handle this ? ******* You are right - I managed to keep it (R44) in control say 10 to 20 seconds until it started to oscillate wildly. Schweitzer three seater was a lot easier even to me, but Rotorway Exec is a real nightmare - like sitting on the hard boiled egg - max 3 seconds and upsidedown it went. EC-135 is lovely but it=B4s pure and full anhuman computer stabilized. Marke sends you warm wishes - me too! See you... Raimo OH-XRT 912S non-turbo (how about -----Alkuper=E4inen viesti----- From: Roland Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 1:01 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: No Title "We wish you will give us some current mountain flight training" Sorry Raimo, no membership in the high altitude club for non turbos ;-) Congrats to Marke for her superb R 44 handling skills - what I have heard is, that the R 44 handling is not too easy. Best wishes Roland PH-ZTI XS Trigear 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409255#409255 browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List Forums! List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Changing capacitance probes to float sensors.
From: "dpark" <dpark748(at)hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
The bendable capacitance probes in my aircraft are fitted to the area in the flat space between the headrests. The are bent to avoid the tunnel. I find the are not accurate enough and wish to change to float sensors. Has anyone fitted float sensors that only go as deep as the tunnel? Do the Float sensors use the same bolt spacing as the capacitance probes? Any one with experience of changing system? Dave Park G-LDVO -------- Dave Park Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409310#409310 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
Subject: AVRO Lancaster, off topic but still good.
For all my Canadian and Brit friends. I think you'll enjoy this. Be sure to watch the videos. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/lancaster-bomber-marks-25-years-back-in-the- sky-1.1865730 Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: Mag drop
Date: Sep 26, 2013
I have excessive mag drop on one magneto and am not sure where to look for the problem. Would anyone have any guidelines for this ? I have someone's c ourse notes which state that: if you pull the choke while running on the ba d mag=2C and if there is any change in rpm=2C then it is most likely a carb problem. If there is no change then it is an ignition problem. I get an in crease in rpm.The engine ran fine 12 months ago. Since then I changed and r e-arranged all fuel lines. How would I identify the faulty carburetor ? And then what do I look for ?Any hints greatly appreciated.Karl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Mag drop
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Hi! Karl, it sound stupidly simple but I recently twice had a plug lead fall off ? I have now fitted plastic cable ties as vertical restrainers. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 27 September 2013 00:00 Subject: Europa-List: Mag drop I have excessive mag drop on one magneto and am not sure where to look for the problem. Would anyone have any guidelines for this ? I have someone's course notes which state that: if you pull the choke while running on the bad mag, and if there is any change in rpm, then it is most likely a carb problem. If there is no change then it is an ignition problem. I get an increase in rpm. The engine ran fine 12 months ago. Since then I changed and re-arranged all fuel lines. How would I identify the faulty carburetor ? And then what do I look for ? Any hints greatly appreciated. Karl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Mag drop
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Hi, Have you checked that the correct leads are on each spark plug. This may seem a bit obvious but worth checking. A while back we accidentally swapped the top plugs on cylinders 1 and 3 and ended up with a 400 rpm mag drop. It may be as simple as that. Good luck Carl From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 27 September 2013 00:00 Subject: Europa-List: Mag drop I have excessive mag drop on one magneto and am not sure where to look for the problem. Would anyone have any guidelines for this ? I have someone's course notes which state that: if you pull the choke while running on the bad mag, and if there is any change in rpm, then it is most likely a carb problem. If there is no change then it is an ignition problem. I get an increase in rpm. The engine ran fine 12 months ago. Since then I changed and re-arranged all fuel lines. How would I identify the faulty carburetor ? And then what do I look for ? Any hints greatly appreciated. Karl ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: No Title
From: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
Moin Raimo! I'm sure that the answer to your question, what the minimum safe altitude to cross the Alps is, should be given from someone, who has done that already (e.g. Frans Feldmann) :-) If you go straight over the Mt Blanc Massive (there is normally no need to do that), your plane should be capable for well over 17.000 ft. When you want to travel to Italy, you could choose the Brenner route and 7.000 ft would be sufficient. Care must be taken concerning the weather all the time when flying in the Alps (more than normal) because you have less options and it can change rapidly. So far my theoretical knowledge. Regarding performance at altitude I went up to FL 120 with ease on my way back from AERO fare in Friedrichshafen to my homebase EDLE. The aircraft (and engine) were quite happy up there. The MHC, yes, definetely something I would like to become a member of. I can bring my wife as company :-). Let's talk about that on a meeting at Siljan Airpark with a beer.... what was it - taxiway 9 Y? Hope to see you and Marke at Texel next year (the latest)! Roland Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409326#409326 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: No Title
Hi Raimo Toivio, > whats a minimum altitude which make sense when overflying The Alps? You can fly IN the Alps, and you can fly OVER the Alps. Personally, generally I fly over the Alps, except when I need to land in a field inside the Alps. Flying between the mountains instead of over them bring all sorts of risks, especially if you are unfamiliar with the area. Even when flying between the mountains, I will do that only if there are no clouds above and I always have the ability to climb out of nasty turbulence, upsloping valleys, or a traffic jam (I had one time had the pleasure of almost getting into a swarm of a dozen or so motorized hang gliders that suddenly appeared around the corner of some mountain peak.) See and avoid is a whole new game between the mountains, and radar doesn't get there so ATC is unable to advice, and the most traffic warn devices are transponder based but transponders remain silent when they are not triggered by radar. Local radio is useless as well as most local traffic tends to communicate in some sort of crypto-language instead of plain English. We've just installed Flarm because that is the only thing that offers some protection. About the altitude required, that depends a lot of the area you are crossing. For the area where Ilona's parents live you can get away with FL100, but for a straight line from Croatia to South Germany we had to climb to FL115 but even then we had to zig-zag here and there to miss the tallest mountain peaks. One warning here: if there is some wind, there are likely mountain waves. With the turbo it is generally possible to outclimb down washing area's (except when there is more than just some gently wind, it can drag you down with 1000ft per minute and in severe cases it can even suck down an airliner.) and of course it can also push you up. Have been flying there once with a C172 with the power at idle and quite a nose down attitude but still climbing with over 1000ft/minute. Not funny if you are passing FL120 in a hurry without oxygen on board. That was when I didn't had a clue about how mountain waves flow, with later insight I had easily got out of it if I just changed the heading 90 degrees. Some basic understanding how (invisable) mountain waves flow is really helpful. Always be prepared to turn around quickly if something undesirable happens (and one more reason to be above a valley rather than in it). There are interesting theories on the internet about the best way to turn around in a narrow valley (including stall turns etc) but the best way is to avoid getting into a situation where this is your only way out. Approach ridges always at an angle and never fly straight to them, this to make it easier to turn away if you are sucked down just before crossing (or hitting) the ridge. Anyway, mountain flying is a bit more risky than flying above a flat country with many pastures, but being aware of all the dangers keeps you sharp and helps to avoid nasty situations. I'm always looking for emergency landing spots and even adapt my routing to stay within range, but I have to admit that sometimes there isn't any suitable spot and if the engine dies you have a not so nice situation. I'm always relieved when I approach the next valley and it happens to be one with green pastures rather than one with just a rocky river at the bottom. Our Alps crossings to Croatia were uneventful, despite quite a nice wind that sent us with over 160 knots GS to the other side but didn't cause any turbulence or other nasty effects at all. Seen the picture I sent you about Ilona and the wild pig? Frans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Changing capacitance probes to float sensors.
Yes, awkward, I'll send you a picture later. Short of time this AM.(ie I'm slower than the clok just now!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________ ________=0A From: dpark <dpark748(at)hotmail.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronic s.com =0ASent: Thursday, 26 September 2013, 22:51=0ASubject: Europa-List: C hanging capacitance probes to float sensors.=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List messa ge posted by: "dpark" =0A=0AThe bendable capacitanc e probes in my aircraft are fitted to the area in the flat space between th e headrests. =0AThe are bent to avoid the tunnel.=0AI find the are not accu rate enough and wish to change to float sensors.=0AHas anyone fitted float sensors that only go as deep as the tunnel?=0ADo the Float sensors use the same bolt spacing as the capacitance probes?=0AAny one with experience of c hanging system?=0ADave Park G-LDVO=0A=0A--------=0ADave Park=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A Read this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php == ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Christoph Both <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Subject: Re: Mag drop
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Plug leads are easily replaced (cut off nylon and twist off. New plug leads are $3.00 each. Rotax specifies a minimum "pull off" resistance for the pl ug lead to pull it off which if it can not be achieved (it will take quite some pull in my experience) required replacement of plug lead. Its in the H eavy Maintenance Manual. Christoph Both #223 Europa Classic ULS Flying since SEPT 19, 6hrs From: Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk<mailto:ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>> ropa-list(at)matronics.com> Date: Thursday, 26 September, 2013 11:15 PM ist(at)matronics.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mag drop Hi! Karl, it sound stupidly simple but I recently twice had a plug lead fal l off ? I have now fitted plastic cable ties as vertical restrainers. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-serve r(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 27 September 2013 00:00 Subject: Europa-List: Mag drop I have excessive mag drop on one magneto and am not sure where to look for the problem. Would anyone have any guidelines for this ? I have someone's c ourse notes which state that: if you pull the choke while running on the ba d mag, and if there is any change in rpm, then it is most likely a carb pro blem. If there is no change then it is an ignition problem. I get an increa se in rpm. The engine ran fine 12 months ago. Since then I changed and re-arranged all fuel lines. How would I identify the faulty carburetor ? And then what do I look for ? Any hints greatly appreciated. Karl http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Changing capacitance probes to float sensors.
From: "gtagr" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Hi Dave, I have one capacitance probe in the right 'reserve' side of G-TAGR and the older float type in the 'main' left side. I find the capacitance type useful for accuracy and I rather like the fact that they go full scale if you inadvertently load any water into the (main filler RHS) of the tank. I find the older magnet float type rather inaccurate. I've not changed one for the other but based on look only, I'd say they are different. Placement of the hole would seem to be the most important thing. I hope that helps somehow. Clive. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409335#409335 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Find the cumulus granitus=2E -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail =2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
From: Thomas Scherer <thomas(at)scherer.com>
Subject: New Instrument Panel ?
In the news segment of Europa Aviation is a mention of a redesigned Instrument Panel. http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/news/item/new-europa-instrument-panel Has it ever made it into production ? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Instrument Panel ?
From: Donald Cameron <fireflier(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Hi I believe it is very close to being ready as I had enquired about it when they first released the images of it. I received an email from Karen at europa about 2 weeks ago asking if i was still interested as it was very close to being ready for general sale. It is too late for me now as my existing panel is about to be installed. I may consider a change in the future if I think its necessary. Kind regards Donald Sent from my iPhone On 27 Sep 2013, at 19:26, Thomas Scherer wrote: > > In the news segment of Europa Aviation is a mention of a redesigned Instrument Panel. > > http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/news/item/new-europa-instrument-panel > > Has it ever made it into production ? > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Instrument Panel ?
From: duanefamly(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 28, 2013
>From the look of it, I suppose one would have to replace the instrument pan el module. Is this true? Mike Duane -----Original Message----- From: Donald Cameron <fireflier(at)btinternet.com> Sent: Fri, Sep 27, 2013 3:47 pm Subject: Re: Europa-List: New Instrument Panel ? > Hi I believe it is very close to being ready as I had enquired about it when t hey first released the images of it. I received an email from Karen at europa about 2 weeks ago asking if i was still interested as it was very close to being ready for general sale. It is too late for me now as my existing panel is about to be installed. I may consider a change in the future if I think its necessary. Kind regards Donald Sent from my iPhone On 27 Sep 2013, at 19:26, Thomas Scherer wrote: > > In the news segment of Europa Aviation is a mention of a redesigned Instr ument Panel. > > http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/news/item/new-europa-instrument-panel > > Has it ever made it into production ? > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Subject: Re: No Title
From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > > Thanks Paul! > > I felt it was almost like reading Reader=B4s Digests...but not so boring and > this time even happily completely free (normally here 750 euros /hour > 1014 US $ /hour). Raimo=B4s hands were shaking but fortunately he was sit ting > on the back seat with kids. Look how fun they had! > > What=B4s =93Kudos=94 ? > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kudos > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bliss
Date: Sep 29, 2013
Hi Goff, Apologies for the delay in responding - your email was lost in the pile of Europa related stuff that was in my mailbox. I have been trying (off and on) to get good in cockpit quality for the last 5 years. It seems that as soon as you mount a camera to the aircraft structure this picks up the vibrations on the airframe. I have used a Sanyo video cam, a VIO POV camera and latterly my Canon EOS 650. Both the Sanyo and the Canon have Image stabilisers and are very effective in reducing the camera shake - the problem is they both have relatively narrow lens angles (so you can't get the whole cockpit in frame). I did buy a wide angle adapter for the Sanyo but it isn't that wide angle and degrades the image quality. In all other respects it makes a decent job of in cockpit video. The VIO (http://vio-pov.com/) has a similar really wide angle to the GoPro and the quality is superb but as soon as you attach the lens to anywhere in the cockpit you get bad camera shake. If mounted on my headset (side of ear cup) the shake goes away but as a pilots head scans the horizon frequently its very difficult footage to watch - also the camera is too far forward and you lose the cockpit panorama. The strange image you get with the rotating prop is a bit annoying but nothing I cant live with. I think VIO have since brought out a software fix for this anyway. If not I will definitely look at mounting a piece of ND filter in front of the lens. I have looked at various ways of isolating the vibrations but as yet nothing worked. It seems that the built in stabiliser systems are the only way forward. I believe the latest GoPro cameras have this built in (it may just be in the processing software). Unfortunately I am (or rather was) a professional photographer and tend to be a little more picky than most - so my fault. Now that I am retired I should have more time to look at the problem - im sure there is a simple way of tackling the problem. Again, congratulations on the video footage at Bembridge - I realised that your original footage would have been better quality but was just curious to see how much better the original was. Thanks for getting back to me. Kind regards, Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of goff Sent: 26 September 2013 13:11 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Bliss Carl, Yes I do have the HD original. It's even better than the YouTube posting, which degrades the original a bit. Bob, I'm not sure what you mean by image shake. Do you mean vibration from the prop and the fuselage? The GroPro is mounted to the cabin roof, just aft of the seats. I don't think it has built in image stabilising software, so it must be my smooth flying!! If you mean the absence of prop strobing, that's down to a little neutral density filter popped inside the GoPro case in front of the lens. I cut a piece the size and shape of a one euro coin from a sheet of theatrical lighting filter acetate. Works wonders. Goff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409259#409259 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Bliss
Date: Sep 29, 2013
Carl, Does your prop need balancing? Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ "Carl Pattinson" wrote: > > > Hi Goff, > > Apologies for the delay in responding - your email was >lost in the pile of > Europa related stuff that was in my mailbox. > > I have been trying (off and on) to get good in cockpit >quality for the last > 5 years. > > It seems that as soon as you mount a camera to the >aircraft structure this > picks up the vibrations on the airframe. I have used a >Sanyo video cam, a > VIO POV camera and latterly my Canon EOS 650. > > Both the Sanyo and the Canon have Image stabilisers and >are very effective > in reducing the camera shake - the problem is they both >have relatively > narrow lens angles (so you can't get the whole cockpit >in frame). I did buy > a wide angle adapter for the Sanyo but it isn't that >wide angle and degrades > the image quality. In all other respects it makes a >decent job of in cockpit > video. > > The VIO (http://vio-pov.com/) has a similar really wide >angle to the GoPro > and the quality is superb but as soon as you attach the >lens to anywhere in > the cockpit you get bad camera shake. If mounted on my >headset (side of ear > cup) the shake goes away but as a pilots head scans the >horizon frequently > its very difficult footage to watch - also the camera is >too far forward and > you lose the cockpit panorama. The strange image you get >with the rotating > prop is a bit annoying but nothing I cant live with. I >think VIO have since > brought out a software fix for this anyway. If not I >will definitely look at > mounting a piece of ND filter in front of the lens. > > I have looked at various ways of isolating the >vibrations but as yet nothing > worked. It seems that the built in stabiliser systems >are the only way > forward. I believe the latest GoPro cameras have this >built in (it may just > be in the processing software). > > Unfortunately I am (or rather was) a professional >photographer and tend to > be a little more picky than most - so my fault. Now that >I am retired I > should have more time to look at the problem - im sure >there is a simple way > of tackling the problem. > > Again, congratulations on the video footage at Bembridge >- I realised that > your original footage would have been better quality but >was just curious to > see how much better the original was. > > Thanks for getting back to me. > > Kind regards, > Carl > > -----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On >Behalf Of goff > Sent: 26 September 2013 13:11 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Bliss > > > > Carl, > > Yes I do have the HD original. It's even better than the >YouTube posting, > which degrades the original a bit. > > Bob, > > I'm not sure what you mean by image shake. Do you mean >vibration from the > prop and the fuselage? The GroPro is mounted to the >cabin roof, just aft of > the seats. I don't think it has built in image >stabilising software, so it > must be my smooth flying!! > > If you mean the absence of prop strobing, that's down to >a little neutral > density filter popped inside the GoPro case in front of >the lens. I cut a > piece the size and shape of a one euro coin from a sheet >of theatrical > lighting filter acetate. Works wonders. > > Goff > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409259#409259 > > > > > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2013
From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Bliss
Good question David!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________________ _=0A From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matron ics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 29 September 2013, 10:20=0ASubject: Re: Europa-Lis idjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>=0A=0ACarl, Does your prop need balancing? Regards, inson" wrote:=0A> --> Europa-List message pos ted by: "Carl Pattinson" =0A> =0A> Hi Goff,=0A > =0A> Apologies for the delay in responding - your email was lost in the p ile of=0A> Europa related stuff that was in my mailbox.=0A> =0A> I have bee n trying (off and on) to get good in cockpit quality for the last=0A> 5 yea rs.=0A> =0A> It seems that as soon as you mount a camera to the aircraft st ructure this=0A> picks up the vibrations on the airframe.- I have used a Sanyo video cam, a=0A> VIO POV camera and latterly my Canon EOS 650.=0A> =0A> Both the Sanyo and the Canon have Image stabilisers and are very effec tive=0A> in reducing the camera shake - the problem is they both have relat ively=0A> narrow lens angles (so you can't get the whole cockpit in frame). I did buy=0A> a wide angle adapter for the Sanyo but it isn't that wide an gle and degrades=0A> the image quality. In all other respects it makes a de cent job of in cockpit=0A> video.=0A> =0A> The VIO (http://vio-pov.com/) ha s a similar really wide angle to the GoPro=0A> and the quality is superb bu t as soon as you attach the lens to anywhere in=0A> the cockpit you get bad camera shake. If mounted on my headset (side of ear=0A> cup) the shake goe s away but as a pilots head scans the horizon frequently=0A> its very diffi cult footage to watch - also the camera is too far forward and=0A> you lose the cockpit panorama. The strange image you get with the rotating=0A> prop is a bit annoying but nothing I cant live with. I think VIO have since=0A> brought out a software fix for this anyway. If not I will definitely look at=0A> mounting a piece of ND filter in front of the lens.=0A> =0A> I have looked at various ways of isolating the vibrations but as yet nothing=0A> w orked. It seems that the built in stabiliser systems are the only way=0A> f orward. I believe the latest GoPro cameras have this built in (it may just =0A> be in the processing software).=0A> =0A> Unfortunately I am (or rather was) a professional photographer and tend to=0A> be a little more picky th an most - so my fault. Now that I am retired I=0A> should have more time to look at the problem - im sure there is a simple way=0A> of tackling the pr oblem.=0A> =0A> Again, congratulations on the video footage at Bembridge - I realised that=0A> your original footage would have been better quality bu t was just curious to=0A> see how much better the original was.=0A> =0A> Th anks for getting back to me.=0A> =0A> Kind regards,=0A> Carl=0A> =0A> ----- Original Message-----=0A> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com=0A> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of goff=0A> Sent: 26 September 2013 13:11=0A> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com=0A> Subject: Eur fmoore(at)aviators.net>=0A> =0A> Carl,=0A> =0A> Yes I do have the HD original. It's even better than the YouTube posting,=0A> which degrades the original a bit.=0A> =0A> Bob,=0A> =0A> I'm not sure what you mean by image shake. D o you mean vibration from the=0A> prop and the fuselage? The GroPro is moun ted to the cabin roof, just aft of=0A> the seats. I don't think it has buil t in image stabilising software, so it=0A> must be my smooth flying!!=0A> =0A> If you mean the absence of prop strobing, that's down to a little neut ral=0A> density filter popped inside the GoPro case in front of the lens. I cut a=0A> piece the size and shape of a one euro coin from a sheet of thea trical=0A> lighting filter acetate. Works wonders.=0A> =0A> Goff=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this topic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.matronic s.com/viewtopic.php?p=409259#409259=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A > =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Un/Subscription,=0A> Forums!=0A> Admin.=0A> =0A> =0A> =============== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bliss
Date: Sep 29, 2013
Ouch ! It depends on which prop you are referring to ' in the last year my Europa has flown with four (yes four!) different props. Someone (who shall remain nameless) keeps ground looping the plane and has trashed 2 Woodcomp props. Its confusing but we put the original Warp prop on for a while so that=92s how I end up with a total of four. Just waiting for the insurance renewal in October ' can=92t imagine what 2 claims for =A33,500 each will do. We have just fitted the most recent replacement Woodcomp SR3000 prop (the third one) which Kevin Dilks picked up at the factory in The Checz Republic last week and it was balanced by them after assembly. Regarding the balance I have one of Mark Burtons dynamic PB3 balancers ' whenever we fit a new prop it is checked for balance and we always manage to get the target into the inner ring ' bullseye (which is classed as very good). So sadly it aint the balance ' wish it was as simple as that. The fact of the matter is that most modern video cameras have stabilisation included as standard and this deals with most vibration associated issues. As it=92s the norm many manufacturers don=92t mention it as a selling point. Im pretty sure the GoPro Hero 3 has an image stabiliser built in. For some reason VIO didn=92t include it in their camera but I am hoping that a simple anti vibration mount will deal with the worst of the vibration and the rest can be processed out when I edit the original footage. I have Sonys Vegas Movie studio to edit my clips and this has camera shake software ' this helps but doesn=92t cure the problem entirely (and degrades the quality). It=92s something I would like to sort out in the future but not top of my list of priorities. From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 29 September 2013 10:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Bliss Good question David! Graham _____ From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> Sent: Sunday, 29 September 2013, 10:20 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Bliss Carl, Does your prop need balancing? Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ "Carl Pattinson" wrote: > > Hi Goff, > > Apologies for the delay in responding - your email was lost in the pile of > Europa related stuff that was in my mailbox. > > I have been trying (off and on) to get good in cockpit quality for the last > 5 years. > > It seems that as soon as you mount a camera to the aircraft structure this > picks up the vibrations on the airframe. I have used a Sanyo video cam, a > VIO POV camera and latterly my Canon EOS 650. > > Both the Sanyo and the Canon have Image stabilisers and are very effective > in reducing the camera shake - the problem is they both have relatively > narrow lens angles (so you can't get the whole cockpit in frame). I did buy > a wide angle adapter for the Sanyo but it isn't that wide angle and degrades > the image quality. In all other respects it makes a decent job of in cockpit > video. > > The VIO (http://vio-pov.com/) has a similar really wide angle to the GoPro > and the quality is superb but as soon as you attach the lens to anywhere in > the cockpit you get bad camera shake. If mounted on my headset (side of ear > cup) the shake goes away but as a pilots head scans the horizon frequently > its very difficult footage to watch - also the camera is too far forward and > you lose the cockpit panorama. The strange image you get with the rotating > prop is a bit annoying but nothing I cant live with. I think VIO have since > brought out a software fix for this anyway. If not I will definitely look at > mounting a piece of ND filter in front of the lens. > > I have looked at various ways of isolating the vibrations but as yet nothing > worked. It seems that the built in stabiliser systems are the only way > forward. I believe the latest GoPro cameras have this built in (it may just > be in the processing software). > > Unfortunately I am (or rather was) a professional photographer and tend to > be a little more picky than most - so my fault. Now that I am retired I > should have more time to look at the problem - im sure there is a simple way > of tackling the problem. > > Again, congratulations on the video footage at Bembridge - I realised that > your original footage would have been better quality but was just curious to > see how much better the original was. > > Thanks for getting back to me. > > Kind regards, > Carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of goff > Sent: 26 September 2013 13:11 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Bliss > > > Carl, > > Yes I do have the HD original. It's even better than the YouTube posting, > which degrades the original a bit. > > Bob, > > I'm not sure what you mean by image shake. Do you mean vibration from the > prop and the fuselage? The GroPro is mounted to the cabin roof, just aft of > the seats. I don't think it has built in image stabilising software, so it > must be my smooth flying!! > > If you mean the absence of prop strobing, that's down to a little neutral > density filter popped inside the GoPro case in front of the lens. I cut a > piece the size and shape of a one euro coin from a sheet of theatrical > lighting filter acetate. Works wonders. > > Goff > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409259#409259 > > > > > > > > > > > > Un/Subscription, > Forums! > Admin. > > http://forums.matronics <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> tronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri======== ======= <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> Europa-List Email Forum - Matronics List Features Navigator to browse utilities such as List Un/Subscription, Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, much much more: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ian Cook" <iancook_1(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/28/13
Date: Sep 30, 2013
UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa-List Digest Server Sent: 29 September 2013 08:02 Subject: Europa-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 09/28/13 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 13-09-28&Archive=Europa Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2013-09-28&Archive=Europa =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/28/13: 0 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Very First Solo
Date: Sep 30, 2013
All, I am proud to let you know my wife soloed a few moments ago very first time. Location: EFTP Finland Time: Z 15.20 =93 15.55 (just before a sun set here) Plane: Eurostar EV-97 UL w a Rotax 912 Ops: Traffic circuit including four perfect landings This is *very* Europa relative because she is Europa Owner=C2=B4s quite a known wife, had flown Europa at least 100 hours from the P2 seat and will solo our Europa (Mono !!!) sooner or later. So, no excuses! This has been my target since 1997. Because of her very fresh markings in her logbook I will spent an intensive next night with a captain beside me. That=C2=B4s new for us. Lucky Me, Lucky She... Cheers, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 Updated flight hours /landings: 377 /611 (w a 2nd prop BUT a 1st one is still like a new...sorry) 37500 Lempaala FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio(at)fly.to www.rwm.fi ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2013
From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Very First Solo
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Subject: Wheel Pants
From: James Kelly <europajimkelly(at)gmail.com>
Does anyone know where I can find wheel pants for a Europa ? Help please. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Very First Solo
From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Congratulations, now multiply that feeling by 1,000,000 and that's how it feels when you pass your skill's test Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409501#409501 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Very First Solo
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Raimo, OUTSTANDING!! Please send my heartiest congratulations to Marke! Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Sep 30, 2013, at 1:59 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: All, I am proud to let you know my wife soloed a few moments ago very first time. Location: EFTP Finland Time: Z 15.20 ' 15.55 (just before a sun set here) Plane: Eurostar EV-97 UL w a Rotax 912 Ops: Traffic circuit including four perfect landings This is *very* Europa relative because she is Europa Owner=B4s quite a known wife, had flown Europa at least 100 hours from the P2 seat and will solo our Europa (Mono !!!) sooner or later. So, no excuses! This has been my target since 1997. Because of her very fresh markings in her logbook I will spent an intensive next night with a captain beside me. That=B4s new for us. Lucky Me, Lucky She... Cheers, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 Updated flight hours /landings: 377 /611 (w a 2nd prop BUT a 1st one is still like a new...sorry) 37500 Lempaala FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio(at)fly.to www.rwm.fi ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wheel Pants
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Jim, Check with Bud Yerly. He has a set of molds. Perhaps he can have a set made for you. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Sep 30, 2013, at 3:35 PM, James Kelly wrote: Does anyone know where I can find wheel pants for a Europa ? Help please. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Very First Solo
From: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl>
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Raimon, please send my congratulations to Marke. She must be on a high right now, like I was when I first solo'd... an enormous feeling of accomplishment that I'll never forget. I'm sure Marke won't it forget either. Two captains in one bed, uhhhh...ship, if that ain't recipe for..... [Wink] Enjoy! -------- Marcel Zwakenberg (Europa Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409505#409505 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Groups <groups(at)thegoddards.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Today BWUP the first UL260iS powered Europa was cleared for flight testing by the LAA. Hopefully if the weather is favourable BWUP should take to the air on Sunday. Thanks goes to the following for all their help, support and guidance: Mark Jones, Galaxy UL engines for the UL260iS Ian Rickard, for all those cad drawings and his support getting the project going ULPower, for the engine mount using Ian's drawings Neville Eyre, for all his help with the cowls Kevin Dilks for Woodcomp propellor Mark Burton for propellor controller Mike Rudd, LAA inspector who helped get the project going Westgate composites, who created a set of cowls from my hybrid of classic and Eyre cowls LAA, for allowing the project Phil Hall, inspector and test pilot to be Vince Goddard G-BWUP Europa UL260iS Swiss tailwheel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Trevpond(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Subject: Re: Wheel Pants
Hi Jim, Give Nev Eyre an email, He will be able to help. regards Trev G-LINN In a message dated 30/09/2013 21:36:37 GMT Daylight Time, europajimkelly(at)gmail.com writes: Does anyone know where I can find wheel pants for a Europa ? Help please. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Congrats! Pictures please! :-) Cheers, Pete > On Sep 30, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Groups wrote: > > > Today BWUP the first UL260iS powered Europa was cleared for flight testing by the LAA. Hopefully if the weather is favourable BWUP should take to the air on Sunday. Thanks goes to the following for all their help, support and guidance: > Mark Jones, Galaxy UL engines for the UL260iS > Ian Rickard, for all those cad drawings and his support getting the project going > ULPower, for the engine mount using Ian's drawings > Neville Eyre, for all his help with the cowls > Kevin Dilks for Woodcomp propellor > Mark Burton for propellor controller > Mike Rudd, LAA inspector who helped get the project going > Westgate composites, who created a set of cowls from my hybrid of classic and Eyre cowls > LAA, for allowing the project > Phil Hall, inspector and test pilot to be > > > > Vince Goddard > G-BWUP > Europa UL260iS Swiss tailwheel > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject: Battery questions
Date: Sep 30, 2013
All, Are there any Europas flying w/ something other than an Odyssey 680, and would there be a good reason to choose another brand or type? Experience and insights welcomed, Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "pestar" <peter(at)reivernet.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Fred Do not have a Europa, but have a DynAero MCR-4S Rotax 914 powered. I have just swapped my dual Odyssey batteries out for dual AeroVoltz (12 cell) Lithium Plumbate (they do not burn or ignite) batteries. Reason 400 Cold cranking amps verse 170 20AH verse 7AH 2/3rds the weight and slightly smaller. Same height and width (just the length is shorter). Did not need to swap my Odysseys but liked the look due to the all electric design of the 914. Price approximately the same. So far so good, use a Schicke GR6 regulator verse the Ducatti (approved by your LAA). Cheers Peter -------- Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409521#409521 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wheel Pants
From: David Joyce <stranfaer(at)btinternet.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Have you thought about trying Europa? There are quite a lot of bits of hardware required to attach to the wheels t o support the pants. Sent from the iPad of David Joyce www.eastmidsspas.com > On 30 Sep 2013, at 21:35, James Kelly wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can find wheel pants for a Europa ? Help please. > Jim > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Battery questions
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Hi! Fred, Answer .......two Odyssey 680's on the passenger footwell in parallel. (initially prompted to get the Jabiru 3300 six cylinder to crank) now in use with the 914 and a heavy duty starter is totally an instant start. Stop fiddling on the edge and just go for it . Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: 01 October 2013 00:46 Subject: Europa-List: Battery questions All, Are there any Europas flying w/ something other than an Odyssey 680, and would there be a good reason to choose another brand or type? Experience and insights welcomed, Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Fred, Try a Shorai Lithium iron (not ion) battery. Wonderful, powerful, expensive b ut brilliant for my Rotax 912s with the old original starter. New technology ! Talk about light weight, small and so powerful! Cheers, Tim See; Enjoy your Shorai LFX battery! SHORAI INC. 845 STEWART DR., SUITE C SUNNYVALE, CA 94085 See http://shoraipower.com for full product details and much more... Please u se the on-site CONTACT form to ask us for help with installation, if needed. Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand. ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 > On 1/10/2013, at 12:45 pm, Fred Klein wrote: > > > All, > > Are there any Europas flying w/ something other than an Odyssey 680, and w ould there be a good reason to choose another brand or type? > > Experience and insights welcomed, > > Fred > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr>
Subject: Very First Solo
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Congratulations Marke! I=99m sure you got stars in the eyes at that very special moment (as I had on my first solo) . Wish you will see them at every flight As you know in France everything ends with kisses, should it be between two captains. Raimo I was told it could be the same in Finland J Max Cointe mcointe(at)free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Raimo Toivio Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 30 septembre 2013 21:00 =C3 : europa-list(at)matronics.com; 'Marke Toivio' Objet : Europa-List: Very First Solo All, I am proud to let you know my wife soloed a few moments ago very first time. Location: EFTP Finland Time: Z 15.20 =93 15.55 (just before a sun set here) Plane: Eurostar EV-97 UL w a Rotax 912 Ops: Traffic circuit including four perfect landings This is *very* Europa relative because she is Europa Owner=C2=B4s quite a known wife, had flown Europa at least 100 hours from the P2 seat and will solo our Europa (Mono !!!) sooner or later. So, no excuses! This has been my target since 1997. Because of her very fresh markings in her logbook I will spent an intensive next night with a captain beside me. That=C2=B4s new for us. Lucky Me, Lucky She... Cheers, Raimo Toivio Europa A2A-ala2OK Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 Updated flight hours /landings: 377 /611 (w a 2nd prop BUT a 1st one is still like a new...sorry) 37500 Lempaala FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 f +358-3-3753 100 toivio(at)fly.to <http://www.rwm.fi/> www.rwm.fi ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
On 10/01/2013 01:45 AM, Fred Klein wrote: > Are there any Europas flying w/ something other than an Odyssey 680, and would there be a good reason to choose another brand or type? My experience and insight: First you need to establish how many amp hours you really need. I have two Odyssey 310's. They each have half the capacity of a 680. Although I have a switch to put both batteries in parallel, the truth is that so far I have never needed it. My 914 has started fast and reliable on just one battery (250 flight hours), and this includes the occasions where I had to crank excessively due to the hot start problem (which I have now solved by closing the fuel pump prematurely to empty the carb bowl before the engine shuts down). I can't believe how much cranking power there is in a 310. So, for starting you don't need any larger battery than this. The 914 is dependant on electrical power (and I believe your engine is dependant as well). So, you may need to have electrical power when your alternator dies. If this is the case then you need to do the math and calculate how long you want to be able to fly with a dead alternator and how much amp hours are needed for that (and multiply that with two because of battery aging and other reasons). Another way to solve this problem is to install two alternators in your ship. Assuming that you don't want to go beyond this reduncancy, now you only need your battery to start the engine. It might be that a second alternator is lighter than a larger battery, so you will save some weight and it gives some piece of mind that in case of an alternator failure you don't have to worry about the remaining capacity and charge state of the battery. I decided to go that route and have a second alternator installed. The reason to use two small batteries: With two alternators and two batteries I could make two totally independant electrical systems. I have two fuel pumps, each on a different system. I have two GPS's, both on a different system. I have CHT gauges and a coolant gauge, both are wired to a different system. And so forth. In reality it means that one of the electrical systems may give up the ghost completely, but I will still get home safely. (I don't want to become stuck at the North Cape or to run out of options above the Alps or over sea). Another reason is that I wanted to be able to use the glider wings in the future. While soaring I would just use one electrical bus (and not worry about depleting the battery), and save the other battery for starting up the engine again. To safe some weight I decided to use only very small batteries. With my system setup I only need the batteries to start the engine, and to prime the alternator. I made a provision to connect both systems together in case of starting problems, but I never needed it so far. (In flight it is forbidden to interconnect both systems because it defeats the whole redundancy). Once in two years I take out the battery of bus B, put the battery of bus A into bus B, and put a new battery in bus A. (Bus A is used for starting up the engine). This means that I always have a relatively new battery for starting, and the "old" battery will get an easy time for the remainder of its usefull life and will only be used for powering up the fuel pump before start. It is a cost effective strategy. About the Lithium things: I have decided against it for various reasons. Although I have not researched the subject once my ship was ready, there are a few things I remember: 1) The cell voltage of lithium batteries is different thant that of lead acid batteries. It means that you will get a somewhat different voltage than all your avionics was designed for. 2) Lithium batteries have special charging requirements. It means in reality that you can't connect the alternator and battery in parallel, but there needs to be some piece of electronics in between. This will become a weak spot in your ship with no redundancy. 3) Field maintenance will be more difficult. Batteries sometimes die. A lead acid battery is easier to replace, a motorcycle battery can be sourced everywhere and will get you home. Also field charging is easier. 4) The technology has not matured yet. Some batteries explode, others have only few charge/discharge cycles, others require complicate management systems, and others have a weird discharge curve (with either too much voltage sag during discharge, or just too little so the end will come as a sudden surprise). So, in short: 1) If I want to build a light weight ship with a non electrical power depenant engine, I would install just a Odyssey 310. 2) If I want to build a light weight ship with an electrical power dependant engine, I would use two alternators and still a small Odyssey 310. 3) If redundancy is important, I would use two alternators and two small Odyssey 310's. In my scenario's there is no place for anything heavier than an Odyssey 310, unless of course I need to have some ballast in the rear of the ship. Then I would favor a bigger battery over just a piece of dead lead. Frans ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Groups <Groups(at)thegoddards.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Sent from my phone > On 1 Oct 2013, at 00:11, Pete wrote: > > > Congrats! Pictures please! :-) > > Cheers, > Pete > >> On Sep 30, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Groups wrote: >> >> >> Today BWUP the first UL260iS powered Europa was cleared for flight testin g by the LAA. Hopefully if the weather is favourable BWUP should take to the air on Sunday. Thanks goes to the following for all their help, support and guidance: >> Mark Jones, Galaxy UL engines for the UL260iS >> Ian Rickard, for all those cad drawings and his support getting the proje ct going >> ULPower, for the engine mount using Ian's drawings >> Neville Eyre, for all his help with the cowls >> Kevin Dilks for Woodcomp propellor >> Mark Burton for propellor controller >> Mike Rudd, LAA inspector who helped get the project going >> Westgate composites, who created a set of cowls from my hybrid of classic and Eyre cowls >> LAA, for allowing the project >> Phil Hall, inspector and test pilot to be >> >> >> >> Vince Goddard >> G-BWUP >> Europa UL260iS Swiss tailwheel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > >

________________________________________________________________________________
From: Christoph Both <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Fred, I have a Classic mount not allowing the heavy duty starter for the 912ULS. Voltage stability during cranking is essential. So I decided to have firewall forward a "Ballistic" 16 cell Lithium-Iron Battery cleared for ATV's, large displacement motorcycles obtainable at any of those stores. While the capacity for the largest obtainable model (16 cell) is only 9AH, many comments online point to the fact that it holds cranking voltage close to open cell voltage (13.4 Volts) while many OPB batteries drop as much as to 10 Volts. Short term cranking amps are rated at 500A, the Rotax starter takes only 60-70 amps. I also saved 12 lbs weight, so the battery could be installed on the firewall forward footwell Port side, effectively balancing out the extra 12 lbs extra weight for the Woodcomp SR3000/2 blade. The 2 blade saved me another 10 lbs up front. B&W settles at 59.95 at 875lbs with a GRT Sport plus conventional gauges. The 2-blade also has much less inertia when starting, staying well below 3 bladed props, lowering kick back tendencies. Because of the small starter and higher reported probability of kickback I switched to the new fly wheel and new start retarding E-Modules. Having logged 20+ test flying hours last week I noticed that the engine cranks well. I compared the old modules with the new, the old being not bad worth the new flywheel, but noticeable rougher. With the new modules there is absolutely no kickback tendency and when shutting down I let her settle on Right Magneto setting (one Module) for 10 seconds and she shuts down without kicking. It is essential to do both mechanical and pneumatic carb balancing. It needs to be done at different RPM. Smallest changes in the linkages disturb a smooth operation. The Woodcomp came with custom made Classic spinner and was already balanced at the factory. One less thing to worry. Just bolts on. The Ballistic battery comes with a special charging unit, quickly recognized coming from the Radio Control market, weights very little and also has cell balancing capacity which they say to apply once in a while to lengthen the life of the battery. Otherwise they say it works well with all existing charging /regulator units for cars, motorcycles, etc. It recharges fast at 5 Amps and can even be operated in the field directly from a car battery as it pushed the voltage up to where it is needed, up to 10 cells (20 Volts). Max operating temps for the battery is 60 degree celsius. I have an in cowling air temp sensor which indicates, with classic installation, only a 10 degree celsius elevated air temperature (I have no cold air inlet installed to save further 5 lbs weight - the conical carbs such air right inside the cowling. After shut down it is essential to open the 2 top cowling hatches to keep the under cowling air temps at app. 40-45 degrees max. The battery was also wrapped in heat shield material obtainable from race car stores. So far it works. But you might notice I did put it in from of the firewall, 787 permitting Cheers, Christoph Both #223 912ULS, Flying since SEPT 19, 20 hrs Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada On 13-09-30 8:45 PM, "Fred Klein" wrote: > >All, > >Are there any Europas flying w/ something other than an Odyssey 680, and >would there be a good reason to choose another brand or type? > >Experience and insights welcomed, > >Fred > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Christoph Both <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Lots of extra weight in the footwell, though. 29lb more than with a lithium having the same cranking capacity Christoph On 13-10-01 3:54 AM, "Bob Harrison" wrote: > >Hi! Fred, Answer .......two Odyssey 680's on the passenger footwell in >parallel. (initially prompted to get the Jabiru 3300 six cylinder to >crank) >now in use with the 914 and a heavy duty starter is totally an instant >start. Stop fiddling on the edge and just go for it . >Regards >Bob Harrison G-PTAG > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein >Sent: 01 October 2013 00:46 >To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Europa-List: Battery questions > > >All, > >Are there any Europas flying w/ something other than an Odyssey 680, and >would there be a good reason to choose another brand or type? > >Experience and insights welcomed, > >Fred > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Christoph Both <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Tim, See my comments to Fred ' You were actually the Europa builder inspiring me to go for the iron-lithium, having your combination of engine/starter. So far an absolute delight. The Odyssee 680 is now in my friends BMW RT 115 0. Christoph From: Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz<mailto:ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz>> ropa-list(at)matronics.com> Date: Tuesday, 1 October, 2013 4:26 AM ist(at)matronics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery questions Fred, Try a Shorai Lithium iron (not ion) battery. Wonderful, powerful, expensive but brilliant for my Rotax 912s with the old original starter. New technol ogy! Talk about light weight, small and so powerful! Cheers, Tim See; Enjoy your Shorai LFX battery! SHORAI INC. 845 STEWART DR., SUITE C SUNNYVALE, CA 94085 See http://shoraipower.comfor full product details and much more... Please use the on-site CONTACT form to ask us for help with installation, if neede d. Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand. ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 On 1/10/2013, at 12:45 pm, Fred Klein @orcasonline.com>> wrote: o:fklein(at)orcasonline.com>> All, Are there any Europas flying w/ something other than an Odyssey 680, and wo uld there be a good reason to choose another brand or type? Experience and insights welcomed, == ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Very First Solo
Date: Oct 01, 2013
I passed my skills test 20 years ago and later several of them. Still I only remember my first solo. That was a moment when the skies opened. Later, it has been more or less replaying with more tunes. Wonderful of course but not so orgasmic any more. Raimo -----Alkuperinen viesti----- From: spcialeffects Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 11:43 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Very First Solo Congratulations, now multiply that feeling by 1,000,000 and that's how it feels when you pass your skill's test Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409501#409501 browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List Forums! List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
On 10/01/2013 01:54 PM, Christoph Both wrote: > Lots of extra weight in the footwell, though. 29lb more than with a > lithium having the same cranking capacity This lithium iron battery may be a good battery indeed. (I just visited the website) However, the pitfall here is that the manufacturer specifies cranking power. In the FAQ of their website they explain that the actual amp/hr rating is only one third. So, while a 18A/hr lithium-iron battery may have more cranking power than an 18A/hr lead acid battery, it has only 1/3 of the slow discharge capability. This means that if your alternator dies, and you need 6 Amps to keep your ship flying, you can't do this for three hours (as you would with a lead acid battery of 18A/hr) but only for one hour. It isn't bad, but certainly something you will want to know before the unthinkable happens. If you want to have the same real amp/hours as with your lead acid battery, I wonder how much the saving in weight would be. Futhermore, I get the impression that they are not really that enthousiastic about using standard alternators in parallel with the battery. I see a lot of talking about recharging afterwards rather than while driving. This may be because they market towards racers of course. And Lithium batteries are not self balancing like lead acid batteries. You will have to use balancing equipment to keep the battery in good shape. Frans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject: Battery questions
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Bob, Tim, Christoph, and Frans...thank you for your thoughtful and detailed responses to my question. I should have given more detail w/ my question...my engine is a 140 hp MPEFI engine by RAM Performance which is based on the Subaru...I have been using Fig. Z-19 from Bob Nuckolls' AeroElectric Connection, an electrical layout intended for a "Dual Battery, Single Alternator, Electronic Controlled Fuel Injection Engine", as a guide. Following it will build in the redundancy which Frans speaks of except for the single alternator...a shortcoming to be compensated for by using higher Amp/hr batteries which will be swapped out annually or bi-annually as Frans suggests. Additional built-in redundancy derives from dual fuel pumps, back up battery for my EFIS, back up, independent GPS, and duplicate circuitry in the ECU. In my case, for weight and balance considerations, my batteries will be aft, and at this stage of the game, it appears that lightweight batteries would not necessarily be beneficial. ...onward... Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
On Oct 1, 2013, at 2:39 AM, Groups wrote: > > > > Sent from my phone > >> On 1 Oct 2013, at 00:11, Pete wrote: >> >> >> Congrats! Pictures please! :-) Wow...what a sweet, straightforward, and seemingly SIMPLE engine installation...Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
On 10/01/2013 05:10 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > I should have given more detail w/ my question...my engine is a 140 > hp MPEFI engine by RAM Performance which is based on the Subaru...I > have been using Fig. Z-19 from Bob Nuckolls' AeroElectric Connection, > an electrical layout intended for a "Dual Battery, Single Alternator, > Electronic Controlled Fuel Injection Engine", as a guide. Following > it will build in the redundancy which Frans speaks of except for the > single alternator...a shortcoming to be compensated for by using > higher Amp/hr batteries which will be swapped out annually or > bi-annually as Frans suggests. Is it really not possible to get an additional alternator in it? EFI tends to use quite some electrical power, and with batteries alone the flight won't last very long. > In my case, for weight and balance considerations, my batteries will > be aft, and at this stage of the game, it appears that lightweight > batteries would not necessarily be beneficial. Don't worry about constructing weight aft. I have both batteries aft, but also have the strobe unit behind the D-panel, the ELT-unit, the Flarm/ADS-B/Wifi antenna's and transreceivers, I could also have put the transponder in the tail (except for the control head), you can put a HID landing light in the fin, etc. If you need to get more weight aft, there are plenty of opportunities without having to resort to dead lead or even lead acid batteries. ;-) And yes I like to have the CofG near the aft limit. ;-) Thinking about it, there is another possibility for having reserve electrical power for single alternator setups. A non-rechargable battery for just the EFI is also an option. Non-rechargable batteries are able to hold much more power per weight unit than their rechargable cousins. There exist alkaline power packs for remote electrical fences which hold quite some amp/hours in a small package, but of course they lack cranking power and rechargability. But they have a lot of power in the package, just what you need if you need to keep the EFI going. It is just a thought that this might be more weight efficient than lead acid batteries. Frans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
On 10/01/2013 05:15 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > Wow...what a sweet, straightforward, and seemingly SIMPLE engine installation...Fred Except that it is upside down. Luckily I have a laptop and I can easily turn the laptop upside down. With my iPad or cell phone I tried it too, but it doesn't help as it turns the picture upside down again by itself. The only solution then is to stand on my head to look at the picture but I guess I'm becoming too old for this. Frans ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream.co.uk>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
I have a small Ballistic battery in an vintage aircraft to power radio. No electrics and hand swung. It's performance is excellent. Several top things about it. Small Dimensions : 61mm (L) x 61mm (W) x 112mm (H) Dimensions : 2.5" (L) x 2.5" (W) x 4.25" (H) Lightweight. 10% loss of charge over 1 year when stored. Mine is the 4 Cell version of the EVO 2 and has following characteristics: Weight: 444 grams (.979 lbs.) Voltage (Charged): 13.6V Amperage: 2.3 Amp/Hour Lead Acid Equivalent Amperage: 8 Pb-eq/Ah Burst Cranking Amps: 135amps Operating Environment: -18=B0C (0=B0=B0F) to 60=B0C (140=B0F) Ordered mine via US EBay and imported to UK. The delivery costs were OK for the benefit. Take a look: http://www.ballisticparts.com/products/batteries/batteries.php Regards Gerry Gerry Holland gholland@content-stream.co.uk +44 (0)7808 402404 White Ox Mead Airstrip, Bath. England ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 01, 2013
On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > Is it really not possible to get an additional alternator in it? EFI > tends to use quite some electrical power, and with batteries alone the > flight won't last very long. > Thinking about it, there is another possibility for having reserve > electrical power for single alternator setups. A non-rechargable battery > for just the EFI is also an option. Non-rechargable batteries are able > to hold much more power per weight unit than their rechargable cousins. Frans..as usual, you raise excellent questions along with innovative answers. As one who has gone far afield from the standard build, I nonetheless have a "comfort zone" and endeavor to stay within it...for me to add a second alternator seems like a daunting task with potential unintended consequences. I seem to recall reading about or having a conversation w/ an A & P about differences between automotive and aircraft alternators...the salient point being that (for some reason) the automotive alternators are more reliable...but I speculate. My EFIS (Dynon Skyview) has a back up battery module...and, for simplicity's sake, along with accepting that electronics is NOT my strong suit...I'll rely upon my mantra about "managing the degree of novelty", an arguably absurd claim given my decisions on my firewall forward set up. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Groups <groups(at)thegoddards.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Try this one Vince G-BWUP Sent from my iPad > On 1 Oct 2013, at 17:15, Frans Veldman wrote: > > >> On 10/01/2013 05:15 PM, Fred Klein wrote: >> >> Wow...what a sweet, straightforward, and seemingly SIMPLE engine installa tion...Fred > > Except that it is upside down. Luckily I have a laptop and I can easily > turn the laptop upside down. With my iPad or cell phone I tried it too, > but it doesn't help as it turns the picture upside down again by itself. > The only solution then is to stand on my head to look at the picture but > I guess I'm becoming too old for this. > > Frans > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > >

________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: James Kelly <europajimkelly(at)gmail.com>
Hi Vince, I've just bought G-BWEG she's a taildragger the same as your's. I haven't flown her yet although I've flown in her do you have any tips on ground handling ? Keep in touch Vince. Best wishes Jim On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Groups wrote: > Try this one > > > Vince > G-BWUP > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 1 Oct 2013, at 17:15, Frans Veldman wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 10/01/2013 05:15 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > >> > >> Wow...what a sweet, straightforward, and seemingly SIMPLE engine > installation...Fred > > > > Except that it is upside down. Luckily I have a laptop and I can easily > > turn the laptop upside down. With my iPad or cell phone I tried it too, > > but it doesn't help as it turns the picture upside down again by itself. > > The only solution then is to stand on my head to look at the picture but > > I guess I'm becoming too old for this. > > > > Frans > > > > > =================================== > =================================== > =================================== > =================================== > > > > > > > > >
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> > http://forums.matronics.com> > http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > >
> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Groups <groups(at)thegoddards.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Hello Jim, I have not flown an Europa yet so can not give you any tips. I do have over a hundred hours on Auster, Cub and Thruster tailwheel and the ground handling does not seem too difficult. The test pilot Phil Hall did comment that BWUP handled very nicely on the ground and the proof will be now on Saturday when she flies for the first time in over 5 years. Weight wise BWUP has also gone on a huge diet losing nearly 70 pounds and not comes in at 870 pounds 59.77 inches. Not sure how this compares to other europa's? Vince Sent from my iPad > On 1 Oct 2013, at 20:29, James Kelly wrote: > > Hi Vince, > I've just bought G-BWEG she's a taildragger the same as your's. I haven't flown her yet although I've flown in her do you have any tips on ground handling ? > > Keep in touch Vince. > Best wishes > Jim > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Vince, Very good looking aircraft. The engine installation looks quite simple and professional. Can't wait to hear how she flies! Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Oct 1, 2013, at 4:39 AM, Groups wrote: Sent from my phone ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Groups <groups(at)thegoddards.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Hello Fred, Yes a simple air cooled fuel injected 107 bhp engine which takes an hour or so to remove and about the same to refit. Originally I had the engine mounted on the Europa using a 912 compatible mount, this was a little clunky so ULPower produced a dedicated mount which took only half a day to swap over. Ta Vince Sent from my iPad > On 1 Oct 2013, at 16:15, Fred Klein wrote: > > Wow...what a sweet, straightforward, and seemingly SIMPLE engine installation...Fred > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Vince...what information can you share regarding your engine's installed weight?...Fred On Oct 1, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Groups wrote: > Yes a simple air cooled fuel injected 107 bhp engine which takes an hour or so to remove and about the same to refit. Originally I had the engine mounted on the Europa using a 912 compatible mount, this was a little clunky so ULPower produced a dedicated mount which took only half a day to swap over. > > Ta > > Vince > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 1 Oct 2013, at 16:15, Fred Klein wrote: >> >> Wow...what a sweet, straightforward, and seemingly SIMPLE engine installation...Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "kees de bussy" <keesdebussy(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Fred, I have an Odyssey 545 mounted on the rightside footwell. The 545 is a little smaller than the 680, has somewhat less cranking power and saves about 1.3 kg over a 680. Although its smaller capacity it cranks and cranks and cranks my 912s for years, even in freezing cold wheather. For what it is worth. Kees de Bussy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409646#409646 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Fred, I would go along with the notion hat a single Odyssey battery ( or any modern equivalent - but not a conventional lead acid battery) is sufficient. It Has worked well for me for 12 years. Never needs charging. Starts first time in mid winter after being ignored for 3 months. I do not see the need for doubling up. Once had a rectifier failure in the North Sea with perhaps 50 nm to go to land, but it was not an issue. Got all the way back to Gloucester without any drama! The engine carries on (even my 914 which has its electric fuel pump driven directly from the alternator and carries on in spite of rectifier failure or indeed if you switch off both master and alternator switches) and you don't absolutely need any other form of electricity, although the battery has ample reserves to run a radio and a GPS (if it doesn't have it's own internal battery) for several hours. It is possible to imagine some really complex form of failure that could bring another battery into use, but I have never heard of anyone having such a failure, and the weight of an extra battery + wiring is a heavy penalty to pay. Build light & fly further! Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ "kees de bussy" wrote: > > >Fred, > > I have an Odyssey 545 mounted on the rightside footwell. >The 545 is a little smaller than the 680, has somewhat >less cranking power and saves about 1.3 kg over a 680. >Although its smaller capacity it cranks and cranks and >cranks my 912s for years, even in freezing cold wheather. > >For what it is worth. > > Kees de Bussy > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409646#409646 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Sounds reasonable David, the only caveat I can think of is a short on the m ain buss=0Awhich would flatten the battery.=0AThis is the reason for Bob Nu ckolds emergency buss which I think is a good idea=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_ _______________________________=0A From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.or g.uk>=0ATo: europa-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 1 0:13=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions=0A =0A=0A--> Europa- List message posted by: "David Joyce" =0A=0A=0AF red, I would go along with the notion hat a single Odyssey battery ( or any modern equivalent - but not a conventional lead acid battery) is sufficien t. It Has worked well for me for 12 years. Never needs charging. Starts fir st time in mid winter after being ignored for 3 months. I do not see the ne ed for doubling up. Once had a rectifier failure in the North Sea with perh aps 50 nm to go to land, but it was not an issue. Got all the way back to G loucester without any drama! The engine carries on (even my 914 which has i ts electric fuel pump driven directly from the alternator and carries on in spite of rectifier failure or indeed if you switch off both master and alt ernator switches) and- you don't absolutely need any other form of electr icity, although the battery has ample reserves to run a radio and a GPS (if it doesn't have it's own internal battery) for several hours. It is possib le to imagine some really complex form of failure that could bring another battery into use,- but I have never heard of anyone having such a failure, and the weight of an extra battery + wiring is a heavy penalty t o pay. Build light & fly further!=0ARegards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ=0A=0AOn W y(at)hotmail.com>=0A> =0A> Fred,=0A> =0A> I have an Odyssey 545 mounted on the rightside footwell. The 545 is a little smaller than the 680, has- somew hat less cranking power and saves about 1.3 kg over a 680. Although its sma ller capacity it cranks and cranks and cranks my 912s for years, even in fr eezing cold wheather. =0A> For what it is worth.=0A> =0A> Kees de Bussy=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this topic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.ma tronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409646#409646=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> ============= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Fred, We've used Panasonic LC-RD1217P batteries in our Europa since first flight. They are a little less expensive than the Oddessy batteries. We once purchased a "look alike" battery which failed in a few hours! We do load check the battery every year and find we replace it about every two years. Jim & Heather N241BW Mono 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409663#409663 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Jim, I have replaced my Odyssey every 5 + years so you may not be getting value for money! Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ "h&jeuropa" wrote: > > >Fred, > > We've used Panasonic LC-RD1217P batteries in our Europa >since first flight. They are a little less expensive >than the Oddessy batteries. > > We once purchased a "look alike" battery which failed in >a few hours! > > We do load check the battery every year and find we >replace it about every two years. > > Jim & Heather > N241BW > Mono 914 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409663#409663 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
From: "Vince" <groups(at)thegoddards.com>
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
Fred, The UL260iS comes in at an installed weight of approx 73kg (including all accessories, oil and exhaust). I have the 2x pumps, 2x course filters and 2x fine filters plus the ECU mounted in the mono wheel tunnel, the 2 x ignition, regulator and Oil/Air Separator mounted on the fire wall so leaves about 65kg of engine and 12kg of Woodcomp SR 3000/3J hung on the engine mount. Not sure how this compares with a rotax but looking at the rotax specs and adding the liquids etc I believe the ULPower is lighter. I did have to hang the Odyssey 680 battery of the pax footwell to get the best CofG. ta Vince -----Original Message----- Vince...what information can you share regarding your engine's installed weight?...Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Subject: Shows great promise for a FWF
http://www.d-motor.eu/nl/expected-specifications-64.htm I wish them luck! Much simpler than a rotax, and still water-cooled. http://www.d-motor.eu/nl/expected-specifications-64.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject: Battery questions - and answers
Date: Oct 02, 2013
David J., Graham, Kees, Jim & Heather...thank you all for your comments... Bear in mind that my engine has no magnetos and is totally dependent upon a source of electricity to keep the prop turning...hence my consideration for flying around with an extra battery...highly recommended by Bob Nuckolls. Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Subject: Re: Battery questions - and answers
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Fred My 914 is electrically dependent. When soaring with long wings if my primary battery gives up the ghost upon start-up, I have a total loss battery to come to the rescue. I perhaps could even start off this NiMh battery but it would severely limit it's useful life. Thus air-start (I have a Airmaster). There are a few other reasons I like having it such as I can plumb direct to a fuel pump in seconds if need be: See Starboard Headrest: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=86878 See NiMh total loss battery: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=30710 Side note: I am using Erics CCA #4 equivalent wire. IMHO you best keep in the front of your mind if using CCA that the fatigue resistance is awful compared to Tefzel and really awful compared to many strand welding cable. Test fatigue before install and route to accommodate. It's also stiffer and requires a larger bend radius. Besides that, it crimps and solders (in that order) just fine. Very usable, just accommodate it's inherentcharacteristics. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Vince, please PM me at jdmilbank(at)hotmail.com. You might recall that I 'phoned you many moons ago on the advice of Ian Rickard, but I've lost your 'phone number. At the time I told you that I spent many hours and days working on and inside the fuselage of your aircraft, on behalf of the previous owner. He in his turn wasn't aware of several matters which he inherited from someone else; now deceased I believe. I built my own Europa between 1994 and 1997 and it's still going strong. Luckily I'm not so large that I can't crawl inside the rear fuselage, so I'm intimately acquainted with your machine. It looks marvellous now and I'm very pleased that I never reached the stage of doing it's permit renewal test flight while the Subaru engine was still installed. I even drove from Aberdeenshire to Doncaster to fetch a donor Subaru on behalf of the owner, before he decided to sell it. You've got a bargain, with that undercarriage which can only be an improvement on my old monowheel. Differential brakes are the answer! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409710#409710 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2013
From: Steve Eberhart <steve(at)newtech.com>
Subject: EAA 21 Club First Saturday Fly-Ins at KEHR, Henderson, KY
We will be preparing Hamburgers, Brats and NATHANS FAMOUS Hot Dogs for all that fly in. Just as New York's 21 Club has become known as the HAPPENING PLACE to be and be seen, EAA 21 Club is the place to be on the first Saturday of each month. When: October 5 10:00 AM till 2:00 PM Central time. Where: Henderson Kentucky City-County Airport (KEHR) If KEHR is VFR then we will be cooking the best Gourmet Burgers, Brats and Dogs this side of Sporty's. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Cheers, I am having the worst time trying to force the fluid up into the brake system from the bleed valve on the main wheel. We opened the upper fill plug to relieve what we thought to be any resistance and with a syringe attempted to fill the various parts. First of all the syringes leaked somewhat and we did our best to press fluid into the wheel portion but after 250 ml, and much huffing and puffing, have seen little result above, even though we induced a vacuum from the top to expedite matters.. Any hints or kinks as to a more perfect procedure? All ideas accepted at par. Thanks, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line
From: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
I used an empty plastic washing up liquid bottle filled with brake fluid, connected with plastic hose. The nozzle of the bottle is similar size to that of the bleed nipple. I wire locked the hose on each end to ensure it couldn't possibly slip off. You have to squeeze like mad but it works! I suspect a syringe might not be man-enough for the job? (Obviously take the top filler screw out and if you have the factory supplied small metal funnel to screw in that avoids any mess at all) -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409811#409811 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line
From: Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Hi Ferg, Large syringe [ from a Vet ?], length of model aircraft silicone fuel tube, 1/4'' spanner, plastic bag and either the Europa screw in funnel, or a noz zle from a silicone sealant cartridge.......... Cover the caliper with the plastic bag, piercing it through the nipple [ to keep fluid off the pads ] Fit the tube on the syringe, fill the syringe and purge the air out to the open end of the tube, fit onto nipple. With the Europa funnel or nozzle fitted to the bung hole in the master cyli nder, open the nipple a turn or turn and a half and squeeze the fluid up, i t has taken me longer to type this than it should take to do it ! Have a helper to watch for the funnel filling up, when fluid is in the funn el, tighten up the caliper nipple. Slowly pump the master cylinder to it's full travel a number of times, air trapped in the cylinder will come up through the fluid in the funnel [ rais e the tail will help here ?] When all air has gone, suck out the fluid from the funnel so the fluid is level with the thread, replace the bung..... job done Cheers, Nev -----Original Message----- From: f.kyle <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca> Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 4:28 am Subject: Europa-List: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line Cheers, I am having the worst time trying to force the fluid up into th e brake system from the bleed valve on the main wheel. We opened the upper fill plug to relieve what we thought to be any resistance and with a syringe attempted to fill the various parts. First of all the syringes leaked somewhat and we did our best t o press fluid into the wheel portion but after 250 ml, and much huffing and puffing, have seen little result above, even though we induced a vacuum fr om the top to expedite matters.. Any hints or kinks as to a more perfect procedure? All ideas ac cepted at par. Thanks, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr>
Subject: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Hi There, You need to push the liquid with a syringe from each brake through the purge bolt until it goes out of each master cylinder. To avoid having liquid falls everywhere you need to connect a special bolt on which you connect a pipe and get the exceeding in a bottle. Max Cointe mcointe(at)free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca Envoy=E9 : vendredi 4 octobre 2013 05:29 =C0 : 5EUROPALIST Objet : Europa-List: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line Cheers, I am having the worst time trying to force the fluid up into the brake system from the bleed valve on the main wheel. We opened the upper fill plug to relieve what we thought to be any resistance and with a syringe attempted to fill the various parts. First of all the syringes leaked somewhat and we did our best to press fluid into the wheel portion but after 250 ml, and much huffing and puffing, have seen little result above, even though we induced a vacuum from the top to expedite matters.. Any hints or kinks as to a more perfect procedure? All ideas accepted at par. Thanks, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line
From: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
I found it was critical to raise the tail as high as possible, say 1.5 meters (be careful not to damage your prop) so that the master cylinder is almost horizontal. Remi F-PGKL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409814#409814 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line
From: Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Hi Ferg Had another think about this today, if you can't get any fluid to flow uphi ll, the caliper piston might be backed up tight in the housing, which will block the flow. As it will have been sitting around for a while [ how long Ferg ?] warm the caliper with a fan heater, just so it is warm to the touch [ to help un gu m the seal] and remove the bleed nipple and give it a shot of compressed ai r to shift the piston out to the disc. Then the fluid will pass through the caliper with barely any effort. Cheers, Nev -----Original Message----- From: Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.com> Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 7:35 am Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line Hi Ferg, Large syringe [ from a Vet ?], length of model aircraft silicone fuel tube, 1/4'' spanner, plastic bag and either the Europa screw in funnel, or a noz zle from a silicone sealant cartridge.......... Cover the caliper with the plastic bag, piercing it through the nipple [ to keep fluid off the pads ] Fit the tube on the syringe, fill the syringe and purge the air out to the open end of the tube, fit onto nipple. With the Europa funnel or nozzle fitted to the bung hole in the master cyli nder, open the nipple a turn or turn and a half and squeeze the fluid up, i t has taken me longer to type this than it should take to do it ! Have a helper to watch for the funnel filling up, when fluid is in the funn el, tighten up the caliper nipple. Slowly pump the master cylinder to it's full travel a number of times, air trapped in the cylinder will come up through the fluid in the funnel [ rais e the tail will help here ?] When all air has gone, suck out the fluid from the funnel so the fluid is level with the thread, replace the bung..... job done Cheers, Nev -----Original Message----- From: f.kyle <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca> Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 4:28 am Subject: Europa-List: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line Cheers, I am having the worst time trying to force the fluid up into th e brake system from the bleed valve on the main wheel. We opened the upper fill plug to relieve what we thought to be any resistance and with a syringe attempted to fill the various parts. First of all the syringes leaked somewhat and we did our best t o press fluid into the wheel portion but after 250 ml, and much huffing and puffing, have seen little result above, even though we induced a vacuum fr om the top to expedite matters.. Any hints or kinks as to a more perfect procedure? All ideas ac cepted at par. Thanks, Ferg arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2013
From: Steve Eberhart <steve(at)newtech.com>
Subject: CANCELED - EAA 21 Club First Saturday Fly-Ins at KEHR, Henderson,
KY Due to really lousy weather being forecast for Saturday we are CANCELING our last First Saturday Fly-In of the Season. We will see everyone next year Saturday May 3, 2014 When We will be preparing Hamburgers, Brats and NATHANS FAMOUS Hot Dogs for all that fly in. Just as New York's 21 Club has become known as the HAPPENING PLACE to be and be seen, EAA 21 Club is the place to be on the first Saturday of each month. 10:00 AM till 2:00 PM Central time. Where: Henderson Kentucky City-County Airport (KEHR) If KEHR is VFR then we will be cooking the best Gourmet Burgers, Brats and Dogs this side of Sporty's. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Subject: AN bolts too long
I noticed that all bolts for the CS14 brackets are specified to be about one size too long. The manual calls for AN3-6A to mount the brackets to the cockpit module. Since these bolts are only partially threaded, I was running out of threads before the nut was able to grip. So I ordered some AN3-5A bolts and that worked better. Then I noticed the same problem when mounting the bellcrank onto the CS14 brackets. The manual calls for AN4-12A, but they are too long. Has anyone else noticed this, or am I missing something here? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2013
From: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
Subject: Re: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line
Hi Ferg, I was about to respond when Nev replied with the same suggestion. I have recently worked on two XS Mono kits that have been well stored (warm and dry) for the last twelve years. As a matter of course, I strip and inspect all components before assembling and on both I found that the brake slave cylinder pistons were stuck fast. Using a compressed air line to pop them out, I discovered that both were covered in a glutinous substance (see Picture). I am not sure what this is but would hazard a guess that it is old hydraulic fluid that would have been used to lubricate the piston during manufacture and being hygroscopic, has absorbed water over the years and degraded. I would suggest dismantling all of your hydraulic components and carefully cleaning and reassembling with fresh hydraulic fluid. I pretty sure that you will then be able to bleed the system as described by others. As an aside, I am certain that this is the cause of high brake disc and pad wear with associated hot discs that other mono pilots have complained about over the years. If you intend to keep the aircraft and have a desire to reduce subsequent maintenance, I would also highly recommend having all the components anodised. I have done this to mine and can send picture offline if you are interested. Nigel On 04/10/2013 04:29, f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca wrote: > > Cheers, > > I am having the worst time trying to force the fluid up into the brake > system from the bleed valve on the main wheel. We opened the > > upper fill plug to relieve what we thought to be any resistance and > with a syringe attempted to fill the various parts. > > First of all the syringes leaked somewhat and we did our best to press > fluid into the wheel portion but after 250 ml, and much huffing and > puffing, have seen little result above, even though we induced a > vacuum from the top to expedite matters.. > > Any hints or kinks as to a more perfect procedure? All ideas accepted > at par. > > Thanks, Ferg > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Churchill-Coleman" <Richard.Churchill-Coleman(at)sky.com>
Subject: Beringer wheel/brake for Mono wheel
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Hi Ian Following up on your wheel Mod below, have LAA approve dit yet and, if so, are you happy sharing the details so I can submit it as a repeat Mod? Kind regards RCC PS Any update on LAA review of the spinning trials? From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian Cook Sent: 06 June 2013 19:28 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Beringer wheel/brake for Mono wheel Klaus, I have too just finished my installation in my motor glider G-CBHI but with the operating lever on the control column. Still waiting for the UK modification approval from the LAA. Regards Ian Cook From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Klaus Dietrich Sent: 06 June 2013 11:21 Subject: Europa-List: Beringer wheel/brake for Mono wheel Just finished the installation of the Beringer wheel/brake kit into my Europa mono wheel, OE-CKD: I use Beringer's hand operated master brake cylinder (MP-004.3) with remote mounted brake fluid reservoir, mounted on the centre console (same position as the original); no modifications to the slot and holes for the fixing screws on the centre console are needed! (some minor modifications on the master brake cylinder are needed to fit into the centre console) The Beringer kit came within one week after ordering, is superbly made, works perfectly and telephone Support from Beringer is excellent! They use the AirTrac 7-6:00 tire (without tube), which comes already mounted on the wheel together with the brake. Total weight saving: 2,5kg - I weighted all Europa parts: 11,8kg - all Beringer parts: 9,3kg; both with AirTrac tire It took me about 6 hours to install the kit. see pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/114561294600531719838/BeringerBrakeJune2013?aut huser=0 &authkey=Gv1sRgCMKm1vmZ69aMGg&feat=directlink blue sky and tail wind, Klaus http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bliss
From: "goff" <goffmoore(at)aviators.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Carl, I'll try and email you the original edit, so you can compare. Goff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409901#409901 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: AN bolts too long
Date: Oct 05, 2013
It's been a few years, but yes I recall some of the bolts called for were too long without the use of many washers to pack out the space So I opted to go down one size I seemed to have a lot of extras of most sizes so I didn't need to order them Regards craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2013
From: Lance Sandford <sandford(at)melbpc.org.au>
Subject: Re: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake line
On 05/10/13 17:58, Nigel Graham wrote: Ferg, I had an experience similar to Nigel. My unit had been stored for a similar time. After soaking in various fluids for several weeks, using heat and compressed air to no avail, I borrowed the hand pump from a hydraulic press which finally shifted to piston. The piston was dry and so badly corroded I turned up a new one, also adding concentric grooves to the rear face to allow fluid easier access to the piston when fully retracted. The bore of the cylinder I was able to salvage. Regards Lance Sandford > Hi Ferg, > > I was about to respond when Nev replied with the same suggestion. > I have recently worked on two XS Mono kits that have been well stored > (warm and dry) for the last twelve years. > As a matter of course, I strip and inspect all components before > assembling and on both I found that the brake slave cylinder pistons > were stuck fast. > Using a compressed air line to pop them out, I discovered that both > were covered in a glutinous substance (see Picture). > I am not sure what this is but would hazard a guess that it is old > hydraulic fluid that would have been used to lubricate the piston > during manufacture and being hygroscopic, has absorbed water over the > years and degraded. > > I would suggest dismantling all of your hydraulic components and > carefully cleaning and reassembling with fresh hydraulic fluid. I > pretty sure that you will then be able to bleed the system as > described by others. > As an aside, I am certain that this is the cause of high brake disc > and pad wear with associated hot discs that other mono pilots have > complained about over the years. > > If you intend to keep the aircraft and have a desire to reduce > subsequent maintenance, I would also highly recommend having all the > components anodised. I have done this to mine and can send picture > offline if you are interested. > > Nigel > > On 04/10/2013 04:29, f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca wrote: >> >> Cheers, >> >> I am having the worst time trying to force the fluid up into the >> brake system from the bleed valve on the main wheel. We opened the >> >> upper fill plug to relieve what we thought to be any resistance and >> with a syringe attempted to fill the various parts. >> >> First of all the syringes leaked somewhat and we did our best to >> press fluid into the wheel portion but after 250 ml, and much huffing >> and puffing, have seen little result above, even though we induced a >> vacuum from the top to expedite matters.. >> >> Any hints or kinks as to a more perfect procedure? All ideas accepted >> at par. >> >> Thanks, Ferg >> >> * >> >> >> * > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ian Cook <iancook_1(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Beringer wheel/brake for Mono wheel
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Still all with the LAA would you believe=2C I despair at times! I am happy to share details. Ian From: Richard.Churchill-Coleman(at)sky.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Beringer wheel/brake for Mono wheel Date: Sat=2C 5 Oct 2013 10:36:06 +0100 Hi Ian Following up on your wheel Mod below=2C have LAA approve dit yet and =2C if so=2C are you happy sharing the details so I can submit it as a repe at Mod? Kind regardsRCC PS Any update on LAA review of the spinning trials? From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian Cook Sent: 06 June 2013 19:28 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Beringer wheel/brake for Mono wheel Klaus=2C I have too just finished my installation in my motor glider G-CBHI but wi th the operating lever on the control column. Still waiting for the UK modi fication approval from the LAA. Regards Ian Cook From: owner-europa-list-s erver(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Beha lf Of Klaus Dietrich Sent: 06 June 2013 11:21 Subject: Europa-List: Beringer wheel/brake for Mono wheel Just finished the installation of the Beringer wheel/brake kit into my Europa mono wheel=2C OE-CKD: I use Beringer's hand operated master brake cylinder (MP-004.3) wit h remote mounted brake fluid reservoir=2C mounted on the centre console (sa me position as the original)=3Bno modifications to the slot and holes for t he fixing screws on the centre console are needed!(some minor modifications on the master brake cylinder are needed to fit into the centre console)The Beringer kit came within one week after ordering=2C is superbly made=2C wo rks perfectly and telephone Support from Beringer is excellent!They use the AirTrac 7-6:00 tire (without tube)=2C which comes already mounted on the w heel together with the brake. Total weight saving: 2=2C5kg - I weighted all Europa parts: 11=2C8kg - all Beringer parts: 9=2C3kg=3B both with AirTrac tireIt took me about 6 hours t o install the kit. see pictures at: https://picasaweb.google.com/114561294600531719838/BeringerBrakeJune2013?au thuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCMKm1vmZ69aMGg&feat=directlink blue sky and ta il wind=2CKlaus http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://for ums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matroni cs.com/contribution =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: DOT4 and filling the monowheel brake system
Date: Oct 05, 2013
My great thanks to Max, Remi and Neville for help. The fault was mine, the stupidy rampant. I discovered a stuck piston in the reservoir/lever component, due to deterioration in the piston rings/cap - sitting for 5 years without inspection. The jammed lever gave clue, so opened up the piston area, replaced the cap and ring and cleaned it. Perfect BUT forgot the condition when I installed the system and ignored the brake cylinder. There we were, squeezing wildly on the syringe, dripping fluid all over the place. Finally sense slowly prevailed, I took out the brake cylinder and the piston was frozen solid. Took it to a nearby brake repair facility and in twenty minutes we had it cleaned. (Thanks, Neville) I bought another horse syringe, clipped the nozzle to increase the end diameter to fit and screw into the top master cylinder filler, (Upper Syringe). I then borrowed a neighbour's boroscope and aimed it at the upper syringe so I could monitor progress while below.. Re-assembled the system. Then I created a suction by pulling the upper syringe to get some suction. Loaded a 600 ml syringe and applied fluid to released bleed valve below. Magic - flowed in like water... When the boroscope showed fluid bubbling into the upper syringe, I pumped the bottom one until no more bubbles arose in it , pulled the bottom to drag the meniscus down to the cap level and removed and capped the master cylinder.. Pulled the bottom syringe, closed the bleed valve, and tried the lever. Pressure, no spongy response and the wheel brakes.......! Now I know if I had checked both cylinders properly, read the clues and thought a little more about it, I wouldn't have disturbed my buddies, would have done the job, and saved gas, 15 dollars, and a day's exertion, plus the celean-up........ Thanks again, Max, Remi and Neville! Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: DOT4 & filling the monowheel brake system
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Thanks also to Jon, whom I should have included in the list of responders. Soorry Jon Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Subject: Re: AN bolts too long
Thank you for that reply. That is reassuring to know.... On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 6:40 AM, craig wrote: > It=92s been a few years, but yes I recall some of the bolts called for > were too long without the use of many washers to pack out the space**** > > So I opted to go down one size I seemed to have a lot of extras of most > sizes so I didn=92t need to order them**** > > ** ** > > Regards**** > > craig**** > > ** ** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Hello. I am not 100% sure on this myself, as I have been Retired for some years and no longer a CAA Examiner. But just posting the comments of a friend who is a currently an Examiner. He seems to think you can not do an IMC rating using a Europa. It must be a certified aeroplane with the appropriate licenced equipment. So it would be wise to check this out for yourself if you are talking about a UK rating, I asked the question just out of interest,as I have an nppl and no interest in an IMC Rating. Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409928#409928 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2013
From: Dean Seitz <daseitz(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: 912 914 Carb Rubber Flange
I have been working on a replacement carb mounting flange for the Rotax 912 and 914. The rotax flanges are known to crack and come off the metal flange. These new flanges are aluminum flanges tha use a rubber joiner to connect to the carb with two clamps. All that will ever be needed to be replaced is a $3 rubber. I have a few of these made up and am looking for someone in the US that is interested in trying a set of these and reporting their thoughts on them. If anyone is interested please email me off list to discuss it. Dean Seitz ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: 912 914 Carb Rubber Flange
Date: Oct 06, 2013
We used to use similar on small motorbikes that had 25mm and 32mm carbs, worked well, the Original mounts would always break off at the plate end of the tube, changing the tube length Can allow some "tuning" of the intake as well, but the effect is limited unless you alter the exhaust Length as well, which in this case would be hard. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ??
From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Gidday, Whilst working around in the lower fuse it has concerned me that my fuselage has what appears to be an intentional absence of core material such that an obvious weakness exists in the fuselage directly above the penetrations for the flap drive cross tube. Has anyone externally reinforced this area, by a dding core material and strapping it in place, encapsulating it, and resulti ng in a conventional sandwich construction concept? Regards Tony Renshaw Using Skitch on Mac for photo work. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Christoph Both <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ??
Date: Oct 06, 2013
I assume this is an important security feature isolating the cockpit cell from the remainder of the back fuselage in case of a hard crash. Perhaps Ivan or Nev or those involved on the first hours have an answer. I would be cautious to make changes, especially reinforcements as in composite construction these changes allow forces to migrate to other areas they might not be intended for, with possibly undesirable consequences. The mandatory root layup Mod of the glider wing speaks of this very clearly where such migratory consequences of material stresses under high G were initially not taken into consideration. Christoph 223 Europa classic Wolfville Nova Scotia Sent from my iPhone On 2013-10-06, at 1:10, "Tony Renshaw" wrote: > Gidday, > Whilst working around in the lower fuse it has concerned me that my fuselage has what appears to be an intentional absence of core material such that an obvious weakness exists in the fuselage directly above the penetrations for the flap drive cross tube. Has anyone externally reinforced this area, by adding core material and strapping it in place, encapsulating it, and resulting in a conventional sandwich construction concept? > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > Using Skitch on Mac for photo work. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nigel henry <gbupa(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ??
Date: Oct 06, 2013
> Subject: Europa-List: Fuselage weakness=2C or intentional ?? > From: tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com > Date: Sun=2C 6 Oct 2013 16:07:17 +1100 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > > Gidday=2C > Whilst working around in the lower fuse it has concerned me that my fusel age has what appears to be an intentional absence of core material such tha t an obvious weakness exists in the fuselage directly above the penetration s for the flap drive cross tube. Has anyone externally reinforced this area =2C by adding core material and strapping it in place=2C encapsulating it =2C and resulting in a conventional sandwich construction concept? > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > Using Skitch on Mac for photo work. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ADI on android
From: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or phone. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: ADI on android
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Hi Graeme=2C A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android=2C and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely a mazing=2C very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your inst rument panel and away you go. Karl > Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android > From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk > Date: Sun=2C 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > > > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM=2C I noticed though the tablet incorporates=2C as well as a high spec GPS=3B a magnetome ter=2C accelerometer=2C and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials fo r an Attitude indicator and a good deal more=2C I wondered if anyone has be en running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or phone. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W > Newby: 75 hours 18 months > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ADI on android
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them pretty useless. Frans Karl Heindl wrote: > >Hi Graeme, >A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app >which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was >absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick >it on your instrument panel and away you go. >Karl > > >> Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android >> From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 >> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >> >> >> Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I >noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a >magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the >essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered >if anyone has been running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or >phone. >> >> -------- >> Graeme Bird >> G-UMPY >> Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W >> Newby: 75 hours 18 months >> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >=========== >=========== >=========== >=========== >> >> >> > -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ADI on android
From: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
I agree fully with Frans. For a real horizon which will remain valid during c onstant rate turns etc. I would suggest Levil Technology's AHRS-Gmini with a ir data (which I have tested satisfactorily over about 60 hours), or other A HRS units now on the market which integrate magnetometers and air data to au gment and cross check their gyro and accel parameters. Add a tablet wireless ly and one has a pretty good back-up six pack. Add software like Xavion (fro m the creator of x-plane), and the capabilities for emergencies situations q uickly grow. Fwiw, Cheers Pete A239 > On Oct 6, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so o n the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the wrong t hing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid state g yros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not co rrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And that makes them p retty useless. > > Frans > > Karl Heindl wrote: >> >> >> Hi Graeme, >> >> A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely am azing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your instrume nt panel and away you go. >> >> Karl >> >> >> >> > Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android >> > From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 >> > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >> > >> > >> > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed t hough the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, a ccelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitu de indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a a ttitude good a pp on a similar tablet or phone. >> > >> > -------- >> > Graeme Bird >> > G-UMPY >> > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W >> > Newby: 75 hours 18 months >> > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >==================== >> > _=== >> > >> > >> > > > -- > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Subject: Re: ADI on android
While I agree with you that most of these devices are unsuitable for inflight use, the reason for that lies is the product design, not the technology. Solid state technology certainly can deliver accurate signals to fly in IMC if they are designed and tested for that purpose. The ipad, iphone etc.. were designed for an entirely different purpose, so we should not blame the technology for their lack of performance in an airplane. I remember being told the same thing about GPS back in 1997. The old ADF was considered far more flight worthy than the GPS. On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman wrote: > Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so > on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show the > wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that > solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if > they are not corrected by some external reference, like a GPS signal. And > that makes them pretty useless. > > Frans > > Karl Heindl wrote: >> >> >> Hi Graeme, >> >> A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app which >> cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely >> amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your >> instrument panel and away you go. >> >> Karl >> >> >> >> > Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android >> > From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 >> > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >> > >> > >> > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed >> though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, >> accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an >> Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been >> running a attitude good a pp on a similar tablet or phone. >> >> > >> > -------- >> > Graeme Bird >> > G-UMPY >> > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W >> > Newby: 75 hours 18 months >> > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >==================== >> > _=== >> > >> > >> > >> >> * >> >> * >> >> > -- > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com>
Subject: ADI on android
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Frans=2C You are probably right=2C but some manufacturers are marketing pure electro nic AI's and DI's.I think MGL is one=2C and RC ALLEN have a certified one f or a few grand. I don't see any mention of GPS coupling. So what makes one a joke and another that works ? I don't like any of the EFIS units=2C but a m very interested in replacing my vacuum gyros with same size electronic ga dgets. Karl From: asarangan(at)gmail.com Date: Sun=2C 6 Oct 2013 21:16:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Europa-List: ADI on android While I agree with you that most of these devices are unsuitable for infli ght use=2C the reason for that lies is the product design=2C not the techno logy. Solid state technology certainly can deliver accurate signals to fly in IMC if they are designed and tested for that purpose. The ipad=2C iphon e etc.. were designed for an entirely different purpose=2C so we should not blame the technology for their lack of performance in an airplane.=0A =0A I remember being told the same thing about GPS back in 1997. The old ADF w as considered far more flight worthy than the GPS. =0A =0A On Sun=2C Oct 6=2C 2013 at 6:27 PM=2C Frans Veldman wrote: =0A =0A Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity so o n the ground they appear to work=2C but while pulling G's they show the wro ng thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem that solid s tate gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference=2C like a GPS signal. And that ma kes them pretty useless. =0A =0A =0A =0A Frans Karl Heindl wrote:=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Hi Graeme=2C A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android=2C and an app which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was absolutely a mazing=2C very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick it on your inst rument panel and away you go.=0A =0A Karl > Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android > From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk =0A =0A > Date: Sun=2C 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > =0A =0A > > Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM=2C I noticed though the tablet incorporates=2C as well as a high spec GPS=3B a magnetome ter=2C accelerometer=2C and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials fo r an Attitude indicator and a good deal more=2C I wondered if anyone has be en running a attitude good a=0A =0A pp on a=0A similar tablet or phone. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W > Newby: 75 hours 18 months > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk =0A =0A > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 =0A =0A > > > > > > > >==================== > _=== > > > =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A -- =0A Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.=0A =0A =0A =0A arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A tp://forums.matronics.com=0A _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2013
From: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ??
Tony, I suspect that this an obsolete design feature from the old "classic" Europa, that had the bagage bay bulkhead at that position. When bonding component together, you don't want a foam core at the bond-site - hence the triangle (compare the angle of the foam with the angle of the bulkhead). When the classic was developed into the XS and the bulkhead moved back, this was never changed. It does not constitute a weak point and I would not worry about it. Adding more material will only add more weight. Nigel On 06/10/2013 06:07, Tony Renshaw wrote: > Gidday, > Whilst working around in the lower fuse it has concerned me that my fuselage has what appears to be an intentional absence of core material such that an obvious weakness exists in the fuselage directly above the penetrations for the flap drive cross tube. Has anyone externally reinforced this area, by adding core material and strapping it in place, encapsulating it, and resulting in a conventional sandwich construction concept? > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > Using Skitch on Mac for photo work. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ADI on android
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
If they have no GPS coupling they probably self correct by assuming that you are flying straight and level most of the time and average the input. Which may seem the correct thing to do but in real IMC it may be possible that you very slowly divert into a bad attitude and the AI adapts to it so it doesn't show you that things are not going so good. Some of the Android and iPad implementations are written by non-pilots and are essentially a bubble level bar but with a AI picture on it. Anyway I would surely investigate how the AI corrects for the drift. If they claim the unit has zero drift they are lying. Frans Karl Heindl wrote: >Frans, >You are probably right, but some manufacturers are marketing pure >electronic AI's and DI's.I think MGL is one, and RC ALLEN have a >certified one for a few grand. I don't see any mention of GPS coupling. >So what makes one a joke and another that works ? I don't like any of >the EFIS units, but am very interested in replacing my vacuum gyros >with same size electronic gadgets. >Karl > > >From: asarangan(at)gmail.com >Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:16:24 -0400 >Subject: Re: Europa-List: ADI on android >To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > >While I agree with you that most of these devices are unsuitable for >inflight use, the reason for that lies is the product design, not the >technology. Solid state technology certainly can deliver accurate >signals to fly in IMC if they are designed and tested for that purpose. >The ipad, iphone etc.. were designed for an entirely different purpose, >so we should not blame the technology for their lack of performance in >an airplane. > >I remember being told the same thing about GPS back in 1997. The old >ADF was considered far more flight worthy than the GPS. > > >On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Frans Veldman >wrote: > > >Most of these things are a joke. They measure the direction of gravity >so on the ground they appear to work, but while pulling G's they show >the wrong thing. Even when implemented correctly you have the problem >that solid state gyros have a very high drift. They work only a few >minutes if they are not corrected by some external reference, like a >GPS signal. And that makes them pretty useless. > > >Frans > >Karl Heindl wrote: > > >Hi Graeme, >A friend of mine showed me his new Samsung with Android, and an app >which cost $ 1.87 and it is an attitude indicator. I thought it was >absolutely amazing, very sharp resolution and instant response. Stick >it on your instrument panel and away you go. > > >Karl > > >> Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android >> From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > >> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:23:57 -0700 >> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com >> > > >> >> Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I >noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a >magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the >essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered >if anyone has been running a attitude good a > > pp on a >similar tablet or phone. >> >> -------- >> Graeme Bird >> G-UMPY >> Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W >> Newby: 75 hours 18 months >> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>==================== >> _=== >> >> >> > > > >-- > >Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > >arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >tp://forums.matronics.com >_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > >========== >========== >========== >========== > > -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "richard" <rcollings(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Re: ADI on android
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Hi graeme I already have Skydemond and use their mobile device in the Europa. I am considering replacing my "very bashed about Nokia" phone but have been put off by all the functions now available. Can you explain to me why I would need the equivalent of blind flying kit to use the phone . I won't boor you with my suggestions but as you and others, who have replied seemed well versed, I am eager to learn. Regards Richard -----Original Message----- From: graeme bird Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:23 PM Subject: Europa-List: ADI on android Ive just installed skydemon on a new nexus7 with the PFLARM, I noticed though the tablet incorporates, as well as a high spec GPS; a magnetometer, accelerometer, and gyro. It would appear to have the essentials for an Attitude indicator and a good deal more, I wondered if anyone has been running a attitude good app on a similar tablet or phone. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409954#409954 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2013
From: danny shepherd <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Subject: SB15-v- clamps
Hi All, Just like to let all Europa owners know. When I removed the torque tube for Pat Tunney to take away to be machined ready to fit the clamps, I was amased how little of the loctite 603 was actually in between the tube and the TP12 and TP9. The TP12's are a tight fit, the TP9 not so much. did I carry out SB 15 correctly !! I think so. I know a few guys have tried using a vacuum hose to pull the loctite in. maybe they had better luck. to my mind the only way to go is by fitting the clamps. Danny G-c.e.r.i ( feeling a lot safer ) Ps. Thanks Pat, the clamps fit perfectly. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: SB15-v- clamps
Date: Oct 07, 2013
From: pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
=0AHi Danny,=0AYour observations are quite normal. About 1/2 to 1mm penetration of the 603 is all that is required to do the job.=0APete=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: danny shep herd =0ATo: matronics =0ASent: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 17:35=0ASubject: Europa-List: SB15-v- danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk> =0A =0AHi All, =0A Just like to le t all Europa owners know. When I removed the torque tube f or Pat Tunney to take away to be machined ready to fit t he clamps, I was amased how little of the loctite 603 was actually in between the tube and the TP12 and TP9. The TP1 2's are a tight fit, the TP9 not so much. did I carry out SB 15 correctly !! I think so. I know a few guys h ave tried using a vacuum hose to pull the loctite in. mayb e they had better luck. to my mind the only way to go is by fitting the clamps. =0A =0ADanny G-c.e.r.i ( feeling a lot safer ) =0A =0APs. Thanks Pat, the clamps fit perfect =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== ======================== =0A =0A =0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ADI on android
From: "kees de bussy" <keesdebussy(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
I agree with Frans that smart phones and tablet, using their internal sensors, are a nogo for flying in IMC circumstances. However I disagree that the technology of solid state gyro's is by definition not reliable or not suitable for flying. On the contrary, a lot of AHRS systems rely on it, in commercial as well in military aircraft/UAV's and since a decade or so in small aircraft as well. A typical AHRS system, as far as I am aware, relies on 3 gyro's and 3 accelerometers and often 3 magnetometers as well. One of each at each axis to create an inertial platform. These systems can be connected to a gps, but not necessarily. Solid state gyro's have a lot of advantages over conventional (spinning) gyro's. They are very reliable in high vibration, high g-load circumstances unlike conventional gyro's. AHRS systems can be very small light weight packages nowadays, while conventional gyro's are pretty bulky and heavy. I know aviation is pretty conservative, and that is good. The point is do not not condemn modern technology as being not suitable while it might be (or should I say will be) not only the near future but even already pretty common today. Kees de Bussy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410013#410013 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: SB15-v- clamps
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Hi Danny. You will be well pleased with the clamps, mine are as solid as a weld no movement, I am pleased you are fitting them, as this is an area which has always bothered me. I think you have spent you money wisely. However a friend of mine had the Loctite fail after two or three years, and I am confident he did a good job of loctiting the tube first time, as he could not separate the parts due to old Loctite, he cleaned with fluid and re Loctite the joints, which have been ok over the passed few years. Fly safe Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410015#410015 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2013
From: danny shepherd <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SB15-v- clamps
Hi Alan, When I did the SB15 it seemed to be ok for quite a while, but over the last few months the movement started to increase. possible still within tolerance, but worrying :-( . Pat came down three weeks ago and took the tube away to get it machined. he returned this Saturday morning and fitted it. There is absolutely no movement, a great fit. My inspector came down this morning and signed it off, very impressed. Pat's a nice chap, just charged for fuel. highly recommended. All the best Danny. On 07/10/2013 20:57, Alan Carter wrote: > > Hi Danny. > You will be well pleased with the clamps, mine are as solid as a weld no movement, I am pleased you are fitting them, as this is an area which has always bothered me. I think you have spent you money wisely. > However a friend of mine had the Loctite fail after two or three years, and I am confident he did a good job of loctiting the tube first time, as he could not separate the parts due to old Loctite, he cleaned with fluid and re Loctite the joints, which have been ok over the passed few years. > > Fly safe > Alan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410015#410015 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Europaul383" <europaul383(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
ANO Article 23(5) - Limitations of national permits to fly: "An aircraft flying in accordance with a permit to fly may only be flown by day and in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules unless the prior permission of the CAA has been obtained." CAP 733 and LAA Leaflet 2.10 "Operating on a Permit to Fly compared with a CofA" also clearly state the Operating Limitations... ...but surely you have a placard in your aircraft to comply with the ANO, as per LAA TL 2.11, which states, inter alia, "Daytime VFR only"? www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/operating_aircraft.html www.caa.co.uk/cap733 Of course, the ANO only applies in the UK, but then so does an IMC rating... HTH Paul M 383 XS Mono 912S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410017#410017 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Groups <groups(at)thegoddards.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
After some environmental issues on Saturday, BWUP was moved today to Lydeway field (thanks goes to Nigel Charles & LAA for giving permission) and took t o the air for the first time in 7 years. Reborn with a ULPower UL260iS engi ne and Woodcomp variable pitch propellor BWUP had 2 flights totalling 45 min utes. Both flights saw temperatures and pressures within normal limits with n o undue vibrations or problems arising. Phil the test pilot commented on how smooth the engine was and removal of the cowls after each flight revealed n o issues either. More flights hopefully this week if weather and work commit ments allow. Vince Goddard G-BWUP Europa UL260iS Swiss tailwheel >> Today BWUP the first UL260iS powered Europa was cleared for flight testin g by the LAA. Hopefully if the weather is favourable BWUP should take to the air on Sunday. Thanks goes to the following for all their help, support and guidance: >> Mark Jones, Galaxy UL engines for the UL260iS >> Ian Rickard, for all those cad drawings and his support getting the proje ct going >> ULPower, for the engine mount using Ian's drawings >> Neville Eyre, for all his help with the cowls >> Kevin Dilks for Woodcomp propellor >> Mark Burton for propellor controller >> Mike Rudd, LAA inspector who helped get the project going >> Westgate composites, who created a set of cowls from my hybrid of classic and Eyre cowls >> LAA, for allowing the project >> Phil Hall, inspector and test pilot to be >> >> >> >> Vince Goddard >> G-BWUP >> Europa UL260iS Swiss tailwheel >

________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Vince, Congratulations to all the good folks involved in the effort. Looks like you have a winner there. Please keep us posted on the continued testing. We'd like to hear about t/o distance, rate of climb, cruise speeds and fuel flow. I'd also like to hear how the Swiss tail wheel configuration works out for ground/takeoff/landing handling. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Oct 7, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Groups wrote: After some environmental issues on Saturday, BWUP was moved today to Lydeway field (thanks goes to Nigel Charles & LAA for giving permission) and took to the air for the first time in 7 years. Reborn with a ULPower UL260iS engine and Woodcomp variable pitch propellor BWUP had 2 flights totalling 45 minutes. Both flights saw temperatures and pressures within normal limits with no undue vibrations or problems arising. Phil the test pilot commented on how smooth the engine was and removal of the cowls after each flight revealed no issues either. More flights hopefully this week if weather and work commitments allow. Vince Goddard G-BWUP Europa UL260iS Swiss tailwheel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Well done ...now the fun ...! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Kit 337 914 . -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Groups Sent: 07 October 2013 22:47 Subject: Re: Europa-List: ULPowered Europa cleared for flight After some environmental issues on Saturday, BWUP was moved today to Lydeway field (thanks goes to Nigel Charles & LAA for giving permission) and took to the air for the first time in 7 years. Reborn with a ULPower UL260iS engine and Woodcomp variable pitch propellor BWUP had 2 flights totalling 45 minutes. Both flights saw temperatures and pressures within normal limits with no undue vibrations or problems arising. Phil the test pilot commented on how smooth the engine was and removal of the cowls after each flight revealed no issues either. More flights hopefully this week if weather and work commitments allow. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com>
Subject: fuel level sensor under the headrest
Date: Oct 07, 2013
I have been Reading the questions and issues with respect to the fuel gauge sender unit. When I put it in I still had faith in the instructions and therefore put it, like the instructions told me to, under the raised seat/back headrest thing. I did not use sealant (cos the instructions didn=99t tell me to) but from the posts it appears I should have. Also there have been a number of people suggesting that it would be a good idea to hoover out the tank before starting the engine. I assembled the tank and put it into the cockpit module at least 5 years ago and haven=99t put fuel in yet. So what does the assembled wisdom advise? Should I do nothing (wait and see)? Should I cut the headrest off take the fuel sender out, hoover out, apply sealant and reassemble? Or should I relocate to between the headrests? I hate to think of cutting up the cockpit module but I gather it=99s been done before for example to take you split tanks. Will ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "richard" <rcollings(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Will Hi . As you have got this far I would suggest you flush out the tank with fuel as well as you can using the two tank drains and buy yourself a large bag of replacement filter screens and go with it. Watch the filters [the standard ones under the seat] like a hawk and change very regularly for the first 50hrs. Also after you have completed the test flight program I would make a point when re-fuelling of filling up right to the top so that the whole of the inside has a good flush.Loose tank material is translucent when wet with fuel which makes it very difficult to see so if in doubt just change the filter. If like me you have no valve between the fuel tank and the filter then buy a brake hose squeeze tool =C2=A36 or =C2=A37 from Halfords makes the job easy. Also an after thought, have you got a fuel pressure gauge if not fit one =C2=A350 peace of mind and practice changing to reserve tank [different filter]. Good luck regards Richard From: William Daniell Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 11:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: fuel level sensor under the headrest I have been Reading the questions and issues with respect to the fuel gauge sender unit. When I put it in I still had faith in the instructions and therefore put it, like the instructions told me to, under the raised seat/back headrest thing. I did not use sealant (cos the instructions didn=99t tell me to) but from the posts it appears I should have. Also there have been a number of people suggesting that it would be a good idea to hoover out the tank before starting the engine. I assembled the tank and put it into the cockpit module at least 5 years ago and haven=99t put fuel in yet. So what does the assembled wisdom advise? Should I do nothing (wait and see)? Should I cut the headrest off take the fuel sender out, hoover out, apply sealant and reassemble? Or should I relocate to between the headrests? I hate to think of cutting up the cockpit module but I gather it=99s been done before for example to take you split tanks. Will ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info>
Subject: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Hi William >From personal experience hovering out the tank is not particularly effective and certainly not worth doing anything drastic for. Just change the filter element regularly ' like every couple of hours at the start. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of richard Sent: 08 October 2013 11:24 Subject: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: fuel level sensor under the headrest Will Hi . As you have got this far I would suggest you flush out the tank with fuel as well as you can using the two tank drains and buy yourself a large bag of replacement filter screens and go with it. Watch the filters [the standard ones under the seat] like a hawk and change very regularly for the first 50hrs. Also after you have completed the test flight program I would make a point when re-fuelling of filling up right to the top so that the whole of the inside has a good flush.Loose tank material is translucent when wet with fuel which makes it very difficult to see so if in doubt just change the filter. If like me you have no valve between the fuel tank and the filter then buy a brake hose squeeze tool =A36 or =A37 from Halfords makes the job easy. Also an after thought, have you got a fuel pressure gauge if not fit one =A350 peace of mind and practice changing to reserve tank [different filter]. Good luck regards Richard From: William Daniell <mailto:wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 11:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: fuel level sensor under the headrest I have been Reading the questions and issues with respect to the fuel gauge sender unit. When I put it in I still had faith in the instructions and therefore put it, like the instructions told me to, under the raised seat/back headrest thing. I did not use sealant (cos the instructions didn=92t tell me to) but from the posts it appears I should have. Also there have been a number of people suggesting that it would be a good idea to hoover out the tank before starting the engine. I assembled the tank and put it into the cockpit module at least 5 years ago and haven=92t put fuel in yet. So what does the assembled wisdom advise? Should I do nothing (wait and see)? Should I cut the headrest off take the fuel sender out, hoover out, apply sealant and reassemble? Or should I relocate to between the headrests? I hate to think of cutting up the cockpit module but I gather it=92s been done before =85for example to take you split tanks. Will href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by <http://www.houxou.com/> Houxou, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest
From: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
if its the airworld one; mine did leak slightly when the tank was up to the filler. I got in a right pickle when sorting it; forgetting (alter applying gue) that the five holes have to align, in sender, gasket, tank and nut ring because although they appear equi-distant they are actually on three different pitches. I also dropped the ring nut into the tank and a screw (plonker). If I had to do it again, I would buy 5 longer screws and replace the them one at a time allowing the sender and gasket to be lifted and a small amount of sealer to be applied from around the top. When replacing the with the right length screws I would add a small blob to each to seal the clearance hole and thread. Sealer is not required in the tank. Also you should be aware that because of the tank shape the gauge will read non linearly and half full will be twenty something liters. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410073#410073 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ADI on android
From: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
umm I wouldn't be so hasty to rubbish it. Technology used to be driven my military applications; now the leading edge is driven by commodity consumer products. No company can afford to develop silicon sensors for a few tens of choppers but they can sell a few million for a WI etc. The sensitivity/quality mostly comes free in these parts. The nexus has a 50 channel GPS in it (I read somewhere). It wouldn't surprise me if a tablet wasn't at least as good as many uncertified EFIS systems. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410076#410076 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest
Date: Oct 08, 2013
On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:12 AM, graeme bird wrote: > if its the airworld one; mine did leak slightly when the tank was up to the filler. I got in a right pickle when sorting it; forgetting (alter applying gue) that the five holes have to align, in sender, gasket, tank and nut ring because although they appear equi-distant they are actually on three different pitches. I also dropped the ring nut into the tank and a screw (plonker). > If I had to do it again, I would buy 5 longer screws and replace the them one at a time allowing the sender and gasket to be lifted and a small amount of sealer to be applied from around the top. When replacing the with the right length screws I would add a small blob to each to seal the clearance hole and thread. Excellent suggestions Graeme...thank you...Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Graeme Thanks How on earth did you get at the blasted thing? Through the little hole in the headrest? Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of graeme bird Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:12 Subject: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest if its the airworld one; mine did leak slightly when the tank was up to the filler. I got in a right pickle when sorting it; forgetting (alter applying gue) that the five holes have to align, in sender, gasket, tank and nut ring because although they appear equi-distant they are actually on three different pitches. I also dropped the ring nut into the tank and a screw (plonker). If I had to do it again, I would buy 5 longer screws and replace the them one at a time allowing the sender and gasket to be lifted and a small amount of sealer to be applied from around the top. When replacing the with the right length screws I would add a small blob to each to seal the clearance hole and thread. Sealer is not required in the tank. Also you should be aware that because of the tank shape the gauge will read non linearly and half full will be twenty something liters. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 75 hours 18 months g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410073#410073 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest
Date: Oct 08, 2013
On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:47 AM, William Daniell wrote: > How on earth did you get at the blasted thing? Through the little hole in > the headrest? Will...my hunch is that w/ a short Phillips head it would indeed be possible, but I won't be trying unless it proves to be a source of fuel fumes. I've also concluded that given a proper guideline, my trusty little hacksaw w/ its free end would make short work of slicing off the back rest with a straight and tidy cut, and a 4 layer BID flange w/ a few nutplates would restore order promptly. I'll save my agonizing for other occasions, Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 08, 2013
I have a little Odyssey story: once I forgot my IBBS (Integrated Battery Backup System) on for several weeks, which gives juice to my Gemini ADI (Tru Trak). It went empty and so went finally my lovely Odyssey. Normally there is like fixed 12,58 V but now hardly 4 V (four). I had a must to fly so I elected to fire upp engine w an external battery. I run the engine say 20 minutes and after that session it was fireable by Odyssey only. I never noticed any failures in that brave battery but just in case I ordered a new one (Odyssey retail shop is just 10 km from here). Now I have a reserve battery, which is year modell 2006, has been in use 6 years, went totally empty and still a new like. So far I will carry those extra kilos happily - want to hear more reports before updating more modern batt techs. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT My wife was licensed on Monday with w top ratings. Now I know how is it to try to sleep w a captain. -----Alkuperinen viesti----- From: David Joyce Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Jim, I have replaced my Odyssey every 5 + years so you may not be getting value for money! Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ "h&jeuropa" wrote: > "h&jeuropa" > >Fred, > > We've used Panasonic LC-RD1217P batteries in our > Europa since first flight. They are a little > less expensive than the Oddessy batteries. > We once purchased a "look alike" battery which > failed in a few hours! > > We do load check the battery every year and find > we replace it about every two years. > > Jim & Heather > N241BW Mono 914 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409663#409663 > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List Forums! List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Hi!Raimo, I had two Odyssey 13 amp hour batteries in parallel for starting my 6 pot Jabiru. For in the region of 9 years and they never faltered . I replaced them about 3 years ago just because I got "cold feet " with the 914 Rotax being all electric fuel pumps and replaced them like for like. The old ones are still used for slave purposes around the workshop and my caravan and still hold a charge for a long while . Congrats to Marke on doing her solo flight . Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: 08 October 2013 20:33 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions I have a little Odyssey story: once I forgot my IBBS (Integrated Battery Backup System) on for several weeks, which gives juice to my Gemini ADI (Tru Trak). It went empty and so went finally my lovely Odyssey. Normally there is like fixed 12,58 V but now hardly 4 V (four). I had a must to fly so I elected to fire upp engine w an external battery. I run the engine say 20 minutes and after that session it was fireable by Odyssey only. I never noticed any failures in that brave battery but just in case I ordered a new one (Odyssey retail shop is just 10 km from here). Now I have a reserve battery, which is year modell 2006, has been in use 6 years, went totally empty and still a new like. So far I will carry those extra kilos happily - want to hear more reports before updating more modern batt techs. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT My wife was licensed on Monday with w top ratings. Now I know how is it to try to sleep w a captain. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest
Date: Oct 08, 2013
The verdict is "wait and see" and keep a close watch on the filters Thanks everyone will From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:40 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: fuel level sensor under the headrest On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:12 AM, graeme bird wrote: if its the airworld one; mine did leak slightly when the tank was up to the filler. I got in a right pickle when sorting it; forgetting (alter applying gue) that the five holes have to align, in sender, gasket, tank and nut ring because although they appear equi-distant they are actually on three different pitches. I also dropped the ring nut into the tank and a screw (plonker). If I had to do it again, I would buy 5 longer screws and replace the them one at a time allowing the sender and gasket to be lifted and a small amount of sealer to be applied from around the top. When replacing the with the right length screws I would add a small blob to each to seal the clearance hole and thread. Excellent suggestions Graeme...thank you...Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Raimo, I too have been known, on a rare occasion, to leave the master on. I think I've done that three times in the last 5 years. First two times it was with an Odyssey 680. First time it happened I put a charger on it and it came back like new. About 18 months later I did it again. Put the charger on it and it came back. But this time I was concerned so I replaced it with a new Odyssey and put the old Odyssey in an old Jeep we use at the hunting lease. It worked in that Jeep for about 4 years till my hunting bud left the key on for about 6 months. That pretty much killed it. Meanwhile, this spring, I replaced the Odyssey in the Europa with a tiny little, very light (and very expensive) LiFePo battery. The Odyssey I took out went into the Jeep. The new LiFePo battery seemed to work quite well for starting and running. Eventually, I did a run-down test to see how long it would operate the EFIS, EIS, Radio & Xponder. Turned out, not very long. After about 10 minutes things started dropping off. I recharged & balanced the LiFePo battery overnight and it was fine the next day. BTW, I kept the charger/balancer on whenever the aircraft was in the hanger. Flew a couple times over the next week and parked it to do more testing. This time I went off leaving the master on (with the charger attached, btw). Next day, the battery was DEAD. And I mean DEAD. Would not accept a charge. I put a new Odyssey back in the aircraft and plan to stick with them from now on. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Oct 8, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: I have a little Odyssey story: once I forgot my IBBS (Integrated Battery Backup System) on for several weeks, which gives juice to my Gemini ADI (Tru Trak). It went empty and so went finally my lovely Odyssey. Normally there is like fixed 12,58 V but now hardly 4 V (four). I had a must to fly so I elected to fire upp engine w an external battery. I run the engine say 20 minutes and after that session it was fireable by Odyssey only. I never noticed any failures in that brave battery but just in case I ordered a new one (Odyssey retail shop is just 10 km from here). Now I have a reserve battery, which is year modell 2006, has been in use 6 years, went totally empty and still a new like. So far I will carry those extra kilos happily - want to hear more reports before updating more modern batt techs. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT My wife was licensed on Monday with w top ratings. Now I know how is it to try to sleep w a captain. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Hi Paul. This is getting a bit confusing, I have thousands of hours on instruments, and at my age I only fly in good weather, and have no intension of flying in IMC in a Europa, and I do have the Placard in the aircraft. Its is not me doing the IMC Rating, its another pilot, or other pilots. I was only trying to be helpful in pointing out that the hours towards an IMC rating carried out on a Europa may not count towards the rating. So better check it out. I see no reason why you cannot practice instrument flying with a check pilot or instructor, but I don,t think ? the hours will count towards the rating, ??? Its not for me to find out. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410096#410096 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: Kevin Challis <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
They do count. Kevin Challis On 8 Oct 2013, at 21:55, "Alan Carter" wrote: > > Hi Paul. > This is getting a bit confusing, I have thousands of hours on instruments, and at my age I only fly in good weather, and have no intension of flying in IMC in a Europa, and I do have the Placard in the aircraft. > Its is not me doing the IMC Rating, its another pilot, or other pilots. > I was only trying to be helpful in pointing out that the hours towards an IMC rating carried out on a Europa may not count towards the rating. > So better check it out. I see no reason why you cannot practice instrument flying with a check pilot or instructor, but I don,t think ? the hours will count towards the rating, ??? Its not for me to find out. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410096#410096 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Hello Kevin Well that's the Answer, So my Examiner was wrong, I will tell him. Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410098#410098 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: SB15-v- clamps
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Hi Danny, Sounds like you had an easy fit, mine was a sod of a job maybe Pat told you. Yes he is a very nice Chap. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410099#410099 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2013
From: danny shepherd <danny(at)mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SB15-v- clamps
Yep, everything went smoothly:-) . Danny. On 08/10/2013 22:15, Alan Carter wrote: > > Hi Danny, > Sounds like you had an easy fit, mine was a sod of a job maybe Pat told you. > Yes he is a very nice Chap. > Alan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410099#410099 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 09, 2013
WoW Bob, that was a story which was expected. If somebody has an obsession to update for a LiFePo style battery, I would carry always omboard a spare one (or have a dual system and not forget a 2nd master on). 10 minutes is an awful short time to have electricitet in the case alt/chg failure - that is an another reason to have a dual system (if you are a LiFePo - user boy). Cheers, Raimo -----Alkuperinen viesti----- From: Robert Borger Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 11:31 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Raimo, I too have been known, on a rare occasion, to leave the master on. I think I've done that three times in the last 5 years. First two times it was with an Odyssey 680. First time it happened I put a charger on it and it came back like new. About 18 months later I did it again. Put the charger on it and it came back. But this time I was concerned so I replaced it with a new Odyssey and put the old Odyssey in an old Jeep we use at the hunting lease. It worked in that Jeep for about 4 years till my hunting bud left the key on for about 6 months. That pretty much killed it. Meanwhile, this spring, I replaced the Odyssey in the Europa with a tiny little, very light (and very expensive) LiFePo battery. The Odyssey I took out went into the Jeep. The new LiFePo battery seemed to work quite well for starting and running. Eventually, I did a run-down test to see how long it would operate the EFIS, EIS, Radio & Xponder. Turned out, not very long. After about 10 minutes thi! ngs started dropping off. I recharged & balanced the LiFePo battery overnight and it was fine the next day. BTW, I kept the charger/balancer on whenever the aircraft was in the hanger. Flew a couple times over the next week and parked it to do more testing. This time I went off leaving the master on (with the charger attached, btw). Next day, the battery was DEAD. And I mean DEAD. Would not accept a charge. I put a new Odyssey back in the aircraft and plan to stick with them from now on. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Oct 8, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: I have a little Odyssey story: once I forgot my IBBS (Integrated Battery Backup System) on for several weeks, which gives juice to my Gemini ADI (Tru Trak). It went empty and so went finally my lovely Odyssey. Normally there is like fixed 12,58 V but now hardly 4 V (four). I had a must to fly so I elected to fire upp engine w an external battery. I run the engine say 20 minutes and after that session it was fireable by Odyssey only. I never noticed any failures in that brave battery but just in case I ordered a new one (Odyssey retail shop is just 10 km from here). Now I have a reserve battery, which is year modell 2006, has been in use 6 years, went totally empty and still a new like. So far I will carry those extra kilos happily - want to hear more reports before updating more modern batt techs. Cheers, Raimo OH-XRT My wife was licensed on Monday with w top ratings. Now I know how is it to try to sleep w a captain. browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List Forums! List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2013
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject: Re: Fuselage weakness, or intentional ??
I ran out to the garage to check and "never changed" was not true anymore when kit #461 (about 2000) was produced. I do not say that the absence of foam core constitutes a weak point - I wouldn't know. Jan de Jong On 10/7/2013 8:40 AM, Nigel Graham wrote: > <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> > > Tony, > > I suspect that this an obsolete design feature from the old "classic" > Europa, that had the bagage bay bulkhead at that position. When > bonding component together, you don't want a foam core at the > bond-site - hence the triangle (compare the angle of the foam with the > angle of the bulkhead). When the classic was developed into the XS and > the bulkhead moved back, this was never changed. > > It does not constitute a weak point and I would not worry about it. > Adding more material will only add more weight. > > Nigel > > On 06/10/2013 06:07, Tony Renshaw wrote: >> Gidday, >> Whilst working around in the lower fuse it has concerned me that my >> fuselage has what appears to be an intentional absence of core >> material such that an obvious weakness exists in the fuselage >> directly above the penetrations for the flap drive cross tube. Has >> anyone externally reinforced this area, by adding core material and >> strapping it in place, encapsulating it, and resulting in a >> conventional sandwich construction concept? >> Regards >> Tony Renshaw >> >> Using Skitch on Mac for photo work. >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Hi All. I just have one Odyssey haven't a clue as to the size of it, also a 914, But to me it seems crazy to rely totally on electrics for fuel supply. If the fuel stops the engine stops. Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an electrical pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical pump in the system, the 912 have both. Its the same as having a totally electric instrument panel, I much prefer a dual system. Systems do fail and usually its the time when you really didn't want it too. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410164#410164 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Hi Alan, The 914 requires higher pressure in the fuel bowl than the 912 due to the turbo. The Rotax fuel pump can not supply sufficient pressure to force fuel into the bowl. The Rotax stock method of supplying the fuel is to use two electric fuel pumps. Either of which is capable of feeding the engine. One to be powered from the main buss the other to be powered from the battery. So should the main generator drop off, the second pump will be fed directly from the the battery giving you time to get the aircraft safely on the ground. Personally, I didn't like the arrangement either. I installed an engine driven fuel pump from Billet ( billetpump.com & http://www.billetpump.com/home2/pumps.html ). Not cheap, but it sure does work. And my engine is no longer electrically dependent. Obtaining a pump from them can be a trial. A couple years ago I tried to buy several pumps for folks in Switzerland and France and gave up after 18 months of trying. Kind of crazy company to deal with but they produce excellent products if you can ever get one. I'd be happy to try them again should you or anyone else wish to acquire one of the pumps. If you go to http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=78854 you can see my pump and the work I went to for installation. I believe that they have refined the pump since then and installation can be much easier. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Oct 9, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Alan Carter wrote: Hi All. I just have one Odyssey haven't a clue as to the size of it, also a 914, But to me it seems crazy to rely totally on electrics for fuel supply. If the fuel stops the engine stops. Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an electrical pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical pump in the system, the 912 have both. Its the same as having a totally electric instrument panel, I much prefer a dual system. Systems do fail and usually its the time when you really didn't want it too. Alan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 10, 2013
Alan, you have in effect got a dual supply - the battery and the alternator. If you have wired things according to the Europa instructions you will find that you can switch off both main & alternator switches in flight and the engine keeps running. All the electrical instruments which haven't got internal batteries go out, which is a bit scary but the engine remains entirely happy, fuelled by the electric pump run directly off the alternator. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (914 mono) "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hi All. > I just have one Odyssey haven't a clue as to the size of >it, also a 914, > But to me it seems crazy to rely totally on electrics >for fuel supply. > If the fuel stops the engine stops. > Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an >electrical pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical >pump in the system, the 912 have both. > Its the same as having a totally electric instrument >panel, I much prefer > a dual system. Systems do fail and usually its the time >when you really didn't want it too. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410164#410164 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/10/2013 12:17 AM, Alan Carter wrote: > Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an electrical > pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical pump in the system, > the 912 have both. There are two reasons: 1) The 914 needs a higher fuel pressure. 2) The 914 runs hotter, and the inlet air has an elevated temperature because of the compression by the turbo. A mechanical fuel pump connected to the hot engine, plus its long hose routing through the cowling, allows considerable heat transfer to the fuel. Then you have the combination of hot inlet air and hot fuel. This increases the chances of vapor lock (and detonation?) considerably. The Rotax engineers designed the fuel system of the 914 setup such that you can keep the fuel pumps outside the cowling, with no mechanical connection to the hot engine, and with very little fuel hose exposed inside the cowling. Together with the high return flow this ensures that the fuel reaching the carbs won't get too hot. The concept works, I don't remember having seen reports of a double electrical fuel pump failure. Don't fix something that isn't broken! If you want additional redundancy, I would recommend putting an extra alternator on the engine. There are very small light weight alternators that fit on the vaccuum pad of the engine and are able to run a fuel pump plus some additional items. You can only use it of course if you have no vacuum pump on the engine. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSVnGOAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVmmgQAMEyRzpGOCtAh/ENFXFxhVhl nbfetw1ny9TBTsmRWGkok/QufWCdxvzxVRCFWvFMBgXj3+CgwxU83m7Xe3GQwoLN rTzzRI2qSGdyOC9oEl9sMUjrYp2iOrlXlfelxlkyIoDPQJ5mmhueHXxC+TR0CL5X 9fI8CwbwGItAApVFWkEgLNYQCL7dZCVOzd3mo24K/qKHAXvG+KJuYOY71ZCpRgUC 48yqt9OlVfT/TgOeREla69FoWRAtbgoDbvBOmC7hQrgCTDMgdetKLqRuwKS3QgCQ cVeb/K6wnr8ZKxxqenY7wZjl0S7/MZmNy3tOtJOGLhPzrLH1Cly+YwxBeC+CuhWk RgAlGAPMMxutyM8KRhV5PBRFR4D2pCPpFb91OMeJKww2sUdH/KSW2SkG0PUQv3cV scgqjnXXH7piN+/XdLnVx585vvmep7Dcdx/M8JocNQL4QMYg5I7Yg6F9GGaWxoOI 2vRfSnb+g/Ch/Hy7d8+Ms5OFDZk1ZXliRT6EQzQ2nUYsC3wLJlEpATotqk3Rqjoy m1jfFVanChIT4IHWBHKtboRRP2ZR3iHC98eo2iyQ7Q9/OumQr+OguTTBNp2X13rE bRQoifqjtUcOQ/FwKzDB/5Lgu2SQivAmSvHtDDnp/MvZs5W2pVVYEOHEKu7eUk68 BBH9SeA4VB0eGW1hlHzn =N5Q2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Oct 10, 2013
My situation: this winter I'm upgrading from Rotax 912UL to 912S 100hp, but keeping the installation in the Classic engine bearer and retaining the original cowlings and firewall forward as far as possible. Therefore I MUST keep the old shorter starter motor. For C of G reasons, the battery must be mounted in the rear fuselage behind the old (smaller) baggage bay and therefore the battery must be very safe and immune from risks of overheating. At the moment I have a simple ride-on lawnmower lead-acid battery, which might not have enough "oomph" to start the higher compression S engine. What I'm hoping you can tell me is which is the most common battery used in UK LAA Permit Europas and referring to a friend's quote "I can't remember what the system voltage is with the engine running, but the odysseys need 14.1 to 14.7v to ensure avoidance of both sulphation and overcharging", should I be installing a different rectifier/regulator? My 912UL engine only produces a maximum of 14.2 volts. Maybe I can manage with the ride-on lawnmower battery, but I doubt it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410213#410213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2013
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Okay, I'll weigh in. I am with Frans on this one. There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical dependency. I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I can confirm that this works. My Europa took a lightning hit which took out my main electrical system and I was able to switch over to the E buss and continue flying to the nearest airport. This system (if maintained) allows me to fly for over 90 minutes. There are refined, well understood designs for single battery E buss, single battery dual alternator, or dual battery dual alternator systems. Redesigning the Rotax fuel delivery system isn't what I would choose to do. Just my 2 cents worth. > On 10/10/2013 12:17 AM, Alan Carter wrote: > > > Why hasn't the 914 a mechanical pump, as well as an electrical > > pump. What's the reason not have a mechanical pump in the system, > > the 912 have both. > > The Rotax > engineers designed the fuel system of the 914 setup such that you can > keep the fuel pumps outside the cowling, with no mechanical connection > to the hot engine, and with very little fuel hose exposed inside the > cowling. Together with the high return flow this ensures that the fuel > reaching the carbs won't get too hot. > > The concept works, I don't remember having seen reports of a double > electrical fuel pump failure. Don't fix something that isn't broken! > > > Frans > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "gtagr" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2013
"My Europa took a lightning hit" wow - that's a story - was there any structural damage or signs of plasma entry/exit? Any pictures? I have always thought a lightning strike would incapacitate a Europa airframe Do tell Clive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410229#410229 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 10, 2013
On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: > There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical dependency. I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I can confirm that this works. Paul, Can you recall which of the "Z" circuit diagrams you used as a guide? Fred ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 10, 2013
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
Sorry Fred, Its nearly 10 years since I wired up my airplane. I'd suggest to sign up to Bob's forum and put the question out there. Paul On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > > On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:12 AM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > There are various strategies to overcome the risk of electrical > dependency. I am using Bob Knuckles single battery E buss system and I can > confirm that this works. > > > Paul, > > Can you recall which of the "Z" circuit diagrams you used as a guide? > > Fred > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 10, 2013
Hi Bob ,David and All. Many thanks for your reply's, it must have been a good question. Very interesting on the Alternator wiring and the Battery, I will check it out, but not in the air David, I did not build the plane, I have learnt something here and will post what I find, Lots of Alternators and spare Battery's required, I much prefer Bobs mechanical pump and if well insulated should have no heat problem. All these other options are work arounds and I have no doubt they all work but one should not have to do all these work arounds and if one buys a 30000 engine it should not be totally dependant on electricity, the pumps may be OK but if the Alternator fails and lets say an old battery or loose terminal the engine stops, This does not sound good design to me. If you have a Vacuum drive generator I take it you have no Vacuum instrument ??,so down to electric only. I will make do with what I have, just hope its wired Alternator pump, battery pump, so does mean that if the engine is not running my Number 2 pump will not run as I prim using the number on pump. Many thanks. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410247#410247 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 10, 2013
Hi All Just a question for the all electric pumps installation - you are flying happily along when that burning insulation smell starts followed by smoke seemingly from behind the panel - what do you turn off? Personally I would just like to kill all the electrics and still have my engine running. Pete G-RMAC Classic 912ul PS OK so it has not happened yet but that does not mean it won't! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter Sent: 10 October 2013 21:34 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions Hi Bob ,David and All. Many thanks for your reply's, it must have been a good question. Very interesting on the Alternator wiring and the Battery, I will check it out, but not in the air David, I did not build the plane, I have learnt something here and will post what I find, Lots of Alternators and spare Battery's required, I much prefer Bobs mechanical pump and if well insulated should have no heat problem. All these other options are work arounds and I have no doubt they all work but one should not have to do all these work arounds and if one buys a 30000 engine it should not be totally dependant on electricity, the pumps may be OK but if the Alternator fails and lets say an old battery or loose terminal the engine stops, This does not sound good design to me. If you have a Vacuum drive generator I take it you have no Vacuum instrument ??,so down to electric only. I will make do with what I have, just hope its wired Alternator pump, battery pump, so does mean that if the engine is not running my Number 2 pump will not run as I prim using the number on pump. Many thanks. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410247#410247 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Sight Gauge Restrictor
From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 10, 2013
Hi, I intend on installing a sight gauge and would like to request advice on the fitting of the fuel restrictor. I dont appear to have one, so I'd be interested what hole size is considered appropriate, and how I make such a fitting? I appreciate the hole size is fairly critical to its functionality, too large and it wont dampen, & too small and it wont really work. We are also after some baby ball socket fuel line valves we have seen on Jabirus and another exotic European kit aircraft. If anyone knows of a source to buy such a valve a couple of us would very much appreciate knowing. Thanks. Regards Tony Renshaw ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Christoph Both <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Subject: Re: Sight Gauge Restrictor
Date: Oct 10, 2013
Hi Tony, I used the same Europa provided FS2 aluminum Fuel restrictor insert as for the fuel return line. It is well made. It dampens quite well but it is also sufficiently wide to keep up with me watching the correct filling when filling gas. It fits well into the blue Bing fuel resistant line, fastened with a single nylon, but I found the blue line a bit hard to read in the tunnel. Christoph #223 Classic Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada On 13-10-10 6:28 PM, "Tony Renshaw" wrote: > >Hi, >I intend on installing a sight gauge and would like to request advice on >the fitting of the fuel restrictor. I dont appear to have one, so I'd be >interested what hole size is considered appropriate, and how I make such >a fitting? I appreciate the hole size is fairly critical to its >functionality, too large and it wont dampen, & too small and it wont >really work. >We are also after some baby ball socket fuel line valves we have seen on >Jabirus and another exotic European kit aircraft. If anyone knows of a >source to buy such a valve a couple of us would very much appreciate >knowing. Thanks. >Regards >Tony Renshaw > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 912 S
From: Klaus Dietrich <klaus.dietrich(at)me.com>
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Hi Jonathan, I'm also planing to do the 912S upgrade while keeping the original MkI installation... The new 912s engine comes with an incorporated soft start module and starts much better than the old 912S! So the old starter will do perfectly! Since 12 month I'm using a LiFePo battery (Super B 7800) which is 1,3kg! The battery is mounted in the engine compartment on top of the footwell and is excellent! Before that I had an Odyssey which was 6kg! On your new installation will you use the fibreglass cooling duct from rotax and are you planning to use any sort of carb Hester? All the best, Klaus (OE-CKD, Nr 134) Klaus A. Dietrich Tel: +43 699 104 18 106 sent on the move... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Jonathan, I have been using a Varley Redtop 25 racing battery which is 16AH AGM (absorbed glass matt). This is virtually identical spec to the Odyssey PC680 which many people use for a Rotax 912S. It has provided perfect starting for 6 years. The battery is behind the baggage bay and uses 4 gauge battery cables. I have never seen more than 14.2 volts system voltage and on a fully charged battery it is mostly at 13.8 volts. Provided you have good connections and big enough cable, I don't think you will have any problems with a new Rotax 912S, even with the older starter, as long as the sprag clutch is in good condition. Regards Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonathanmilbank Sent: 10 October 2013 14:40 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions --> My situation: this winter I'm upgrading from Rotax 912UL to 912S 100hp, but keeping the installation in the Classic engine bearer and retaining the original cowlings and firewall forward as far as possible. Therefore I MUST keep the old shorter starter motor. For C of G reasons, the battery must be mounted in the rear fuselage behind the old (smaller) baggage bay and therefore the battery must be very safe and immune from risks of overheating. At the moment I have a simple ride-on lawnmower lead-acid battery, which might not have enough "oomph" to start the higher compression S engine. What I'm hoping you can tell me is which is the most common battery used in UK LAA Permit Europas and referring to a friend's quote "I can't remember what the system voltage is with the engine running, but the odysseys need 14.1 to 14.7v to ensure avoidance of both sulphation and overcharging", should I be installing a different rectifier/regulator? My 912UL engine only produces a maximum of 14.2 volts. Maybe I can manage with the ride-on lawnmower battery, but I doubt it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410213#410213 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/10/2013 11:14 PM, Pete Lawless wrote: > Just a question for the all electric pumps installation - you are > flying happily along when that burning insulation smell starts > followed by smoke seemingly from behind the panel - what do you > turn off? First of all, it should not be possible that this happens. There is a simple rule, always wire downstream of a CB or fuse with a wire gauge suitable for carrying at least the max current of the CB or fuse. So, even if something goes wrong, then still either the CB pops or nothing happens. Secondly, invest in a good amps gauge. I know from all equipment how much current it is normally using; if something goes wrong I can easily sort out which circuit is going south and pull the assosiated CB. If there is smoke, there must be quite some current flowing somewhere, and it should be relatively easy to find the corresponding circuit. Third, if you follow the Europa design you have the second fuel pump wired directly to the alternator. This means that you can indeed turn off everything and the engine keeps running. Unless the fault is in the alternator or remaining pump, but then this means that the rest of the system is still alive so you should be able to operate from the other fuel pump. Of course this is only possible if there is a way to isolate the alternator from the electrical system, either manually or with a CB/fuse. Last, I have two completely independant electrical systems, each with its own alternator and battery. I can kill one complete electrical system and operate the ship from the remaining bus. > Personally I would just like to kill all the electrics and still > have my engine running. That is still possible. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV8s7AAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVgKMQAM0cKKKYu/NdJNHkEXY1V0sA 61T/POD+NhM2ZFj+L3o3ZuPRW0fl/8nEn0u4cx8jkncjqqyofYrAcs3YRztgnn6L cO8oAHHlQ/09foACWccN6IVCDAc5sNDvGtxTTwVwRFJcfLoSz2mmPbE92Ls9bkWL 1xsH3gDltxX3J1mpLzR43PVrKAGcNoNLnHVjUEgWa2sqXVH6HVD/isQm42LoTm+z t98KMPMie0AY0RluT1wE+qhfL9fCF+RFiW8H7NJ2F2tx3FE+1YFKwIXnbxSSS6Ts FJCNIByCncxwPYAyWBHlr8z+Q56Dzq8CUwckX2BnNZqlUJgs17CaxV4c4ipIuqBZ FAdBOmP6sU1ld4p3IKx5bkaHw+hJniLWJBUr6QJKtxSPWGjksGWSzDtv68+jSBB1 T71B3dw8Nt2OwXk1Gcbohh+kzqu2bryPPBskPbBBz4IAsM11fszs2hVDFpKlREqM 7SFgp2TzGPj8cc3Nq71+8JEaPO0VEYEsZnIaEZ/7zeuYKvP/AyzFeGFiJgL92RVd qhx+bOXkGKv0oHCt/n1pU3EHHGSng31a+5N3Ykc+oORJ+9dDrkZx/6U6ZEILZ0lx RHJKEcknLiXvyzo/LcnZaLUgjklqKjUV6+4GsIBBwJocFOiIRr0Q1YRw7XymhnVt c7aiVwpny/OAvBnLxAa1 =dYgV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 11, 2013
That, what I would do Peter, Kill the lot, then pull all the breakers, and if I found I really needed something turn that one on. But before I do I must check David's wiring out, With my luck its probably wired wrong, and the engine will stop. I am wiring my new FFM directly to the battery with fuse and switch, so in the event that If ever i kill the lot, I will still have engine running and fuel indications. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410294#410294 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/10/2013 10:33 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > I much prefer Bobs mechanical pump and if well insulated should > have no heat problem. I'm interested to learn how you are going to thermally insulate a metal fuel pump bolted to a hot metal engine. Remember that a hot fuel pump is exactly the place where you can expect vapor lock and/or cavitating. And where it does the most harm because the pump then works in a void and the fuel flow stops. There is a reason why the Rotax engineers strayed off the obvious route and came up with something else... > and if one buys a 30000 engine it should not be totally > dependant on electricity, You'd better get used to it. Fuel injection and fadecs are on the rise and without doubt will soon every new engine be dependant on electricity. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. It may have escaped to you that the Rotax alternator has a very special design. It has no brushes, no moving parts at all that can fail. It is the very same alternator that produces the electricity for the spark plugs. In fact, also the 912 is completely dependant on the very same alternator; without it the spark plugs won't fire and also the 912 won't fly any further. So, even if you have a mechanical fuel pump you still have a complete engine stop if this alternator fails. Luckily, it is quite unbreakable. > the pumps may be OK but if the Alternator fails If the alternator fails the spark plugs won't fire anymore, so it doesn't matter whether the pumps stop. > If you have a Vacuum drive generator I take it you have no Vacuum > instrument ?? Vacuum pumps suck. I hope you are not suggesting that vaccuum is more reliable than electricity? Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV8/lAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzV0yQP/2nSfPq4Rr+qNq9iLOPoJGx8 MN+aMabXd4dR9DWSJ745LXpUF0Zyrwof4IgeURIKJIH+IU3APDmeOWszogEre6Xr bUZTDnv4y3kXPm6bin5QRADFjzJLlijMbPoOdtLTWnrevKFW56Igz27yVpkKQFC1 LFO48xymQB18EfXiH3awb10uv/PEddhvCBWyoZm5ZcS1k82JjebOfvEZNtQ8DusI BeIslOw9YXgO39dtEZWtfVsrIwUTJH88Nm1TiK9aGUyjOMx0Pc7aFJV4rXlyH5Ck MMOtafgW2/pugHXTKzkd5+l5N1jN68Q1rhBFzbp8FuiLFuTrPwdZAk/1je9lC60M /zdZAeWu729j9Yd5i3dPfs3/c/55dcrL0xcWuZ+U3UOuEkpqJ/nXkQN/YNF1SRad i6egBVcdarcz9mHFDZGprwGFhkxbh15THrmRjO1Flvemdj7dh95fRxN7uzY6HcYc 1SoXYC84kqeRk4aZiZiu+BX0FzMhnLLrT4RWVBpPWAjnBz/RZW5ew1fVaABKsC/3 JqK4rEsHtfM8yCLup+56qhYzfoMnli3sHCwttj/E+ihqhkL4R8TSDHWM+W92wvFD 2XYOcl9m036p5VMORyp24e0jGF6qLnxDhfS6Q1HN2G5v4EJC55g9M3cMVVQXVm5Y oh/8nPablr53vLicJfuz =C2Ah -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2013 12:09 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > I am wiring my new FFM directly to the battery with fuse and > switch, so in the event that If ever i kill the lot, I will still > have engine running and fuel indications. What's wrong with wiring the fuel pump to the alternator? If you wire it to the battery, you are defying the purpose of the master switch. In a crash landing, I wouldn't care whether the spark that ignites my leaking fuel was coming from my GPS or from my fuel indicators or fuel pump. (Not to mention the fact that the fuel pump may continue to run after the crash, something you might not desire if there is a fuel leak upstreams). If you wire to the alternator, nothing can go wrong, assuming that the engine will stop at impact and the electricity is long gone before you come to a stop. I must say that I'm a bit surprised how many people easily modify the fuel system and/or electrical system, without understanding what the reasons were why it was designed in that specific way. Don't fix something that isn't broken! Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV9HMAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzV3rgQAMDu70nGFerVnAtslTN4o8xZ hFjFv16eoW1QwlTDSYccTEe9MIauAlC7jrJIR38sGGSo48qVNvOqy3i5ZfF7PSd9 TWHc3Tw94iEzCKCOAkmSlwX24RrYw3AevkrIp1uSckw5h8Y9Jt1Klcv3ImbR3QoY x0dukDs77SNDf74M2XKxkx549yppikv5gnDdAgUgTd6LoM1xCymWxwR5RiaOevB5 TsyZG1817fG4IvtKndmKICjeTYhDCocoUOyCzT81fDKzCrphuGa0ZGLlWkMYQvP0 S9CbTA7W5Xw41dRvHvNPfR+8pgxfzYPS047xEHtRWd7GRtlD7HbCcRLKXV2i9+Ju /LSzXFMJF9bFHEGznmu9B1MIeYxfClNPXWq8w385DIvsESoLtcF5lC+y/iQmmMR7 ByyyYUwrrjpnTsvZe7VqhcE6f2DuuLxsUvyGs9CIUD6SaIVlKDy3jLAWC3TgpxH+ SV/ojBrMm/NPE7orCTg27AJ4k9sF0x2FDJ0yMdCf9jSRt7RYWyzKpai333WYeZVI m8whEurerzq1SLkQeuv7EJBRcWFmd4L6m7bQHVGNDMv/grJWeWVeFPWw2A4/PPtc QcoL9Q+/lud6DBfSNHvLemxgskAiiYFhxv0df9aszQSOKJSXbyoEE94AH0Nga755 cm5DwBShBTpyiWacD+tJ =G2IX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Christoph Both <christoph.both(at)acadiau.ca>
Subject: Re: 912 S
Date: Oct 11, 2013
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Date: Oct 11, 2013
From: GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Frans Veldman a crit : > > > I must say that I'm a bit surprised how many people easily modify the > fuel system and/or electrical system, without understanding what the > reasons were why it was designed in that specific way. > > Frans and all, During the build of our project, we made a thorough study of the electrical system of the Rotax 914. We discovered that in some cases true redundancy is not achieved with the schematic provided by Rotax, because of the Rotax voltage regulator behavior. That's why we had to resort to dual battery installation. Concerning the fire hazard in a crash, it is admitted that skinny hot conductors (less than 5 amp) present relatively low risk. Let's remember that at least one always hot conductor exists between the master switch and the main battery contactor, though the current is limited by the contactor coil. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2013 02:03 PM, GTH wrote: > During the build of our project, we made a thorough study of the > electrical system of the Rotax 914. We discovered that in some > cases true redundancy is not achieved with the schematic provided > by Rotax, because of the Rotax voltage regulator behavior. That's > why we had to resort to dual battery installation. I have that too. But in the original setup it is as close as you can get to full redundancy. > Concerning the fire hazard in a crash, it is admitted that skinny > hot conductors (less than 5 amp) present relatively low risk. I'm more concerned about sparks. Remember it is also a spark which ignites the fuel in the cylinders. Any cable carrying current *will* spark when ripped apart. And a glass aircraft won't bend but break, so the risk is very high that cables will get sheered off (at the same moment the fuel hoses break as well). > Let's remember that at least one always hot conductor exists > between the master switch and the main battery contactor, though > the current is limited by the contactor coil. That's true. In my ship it is the only "live" wire in the whole aircraft. But you can eliminate the ability to spark if you use a 10 cent transistor to switch the contactor coil (and a diode to extinguish the back flow current). So, there is now nothing that can spark once the master switches are off. Indeed, this is where I diverted from the original plans: I think that keeping the stall warner and trim alive by routing them around the master switch is plain stupid. Then you could keep as well the flaps, the radio and a dozen other "essential" goodies alive. My idea is to keep the electrical systems running until established at "final" (whatever the target of the controlled crash will be) and then fly the remainder without fuel and electricity. I should be close to trimmed out for the intended landing speed and I can well do without a stall warner if necessary. Anyway, I don't want to have any live wires running through the ship at that moment (not to mention electric fuel pumps that keep pumping out fuel once the crash landing has been finished). Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV+8dAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVz90QANIaT9XSocVTuXfn71+v9yk+ pLyCRykuy26gljCTsrQ4Iq/kRdaqvjdIhH61xyDbREQg2lqyP4mt03eEl2IWpb/f xRLfSfgcLwvmHuo+5lyc3dM6L3korHhYW8qu+lUc1hRVWHScn+uarqSOD3rPYG9L yEq/fbfK510j/FvY0BGbjPFk6LGvY9LoNF/BX1TJQBpee6uzhapM2X7sW4tHbPLl g0UOnfvsSTfea6iWdeYw0crPT7TxHt0oXKfcBpzv1IzAT/waisfrTr6QyBCD3Rc5 HggmpDyLzgcPCaLr/3S5trsPd7yCaPxWZXmQeelrB2kfmOrJEnF30yFN7lLgBtrn yjff52Iz7NrEpdebF5amNh4KaGCsUQznOM2Mv6BNQ9yrFslAlK9o5jIac4dshRCS nmZWezTQXFrt2Nz43NbFVVmpqkJ6U/qZGJgvVg4V9yox4qW17uK7ihe6KPobBn8o XKFR69fC6UOeXxh9z/kzD7yHhvEZL/UUDEKtT6PHZg13pfN58GGwkIfu8nohRWsJ cmZj35M5/iOjHwnCfpEzTrhoiuHeVJaCv8fszvyYU14aKFR3JVYk3jRKFANwTOLa 6jxnvvQZV2/6/Lkhq9ZdrwFnG07SY+6GUSzQF/6bo1SeCfgR97fBE9WYRPZDw2Wh AiUX5/xF6odn7FzVjE6f =rQhz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Question though....is there not a a capacitor anywhere in the rotax charging setup? If there is, the switches would not save one from sparks as the charge on the capacitor will more than happily provide a spark when it's wires get shorted in a crash. Cheers, Pete > On Oct 11, 2013, at 6:24 AM, Frans Veldman wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > >> On 10/11/2013 12:09 PM, Alan Carter wrote: >> >> I am wiring my new FFM directly to the battery with fuse and >> switch, so in the event that If ever i kill the lot, I will still >> have engine running and fuel indications. > > What's wrong with wiring the fuel pump to the alternator? > > If you wire it to the battery, you are defying the purpose of the > master switch. In a crash landing, I wouldn't care whether the spark > that ignites my leaking fuel was coming from my GPS or from my fuel > indicators or fuel pump. (Not to mention the fact that the fuel pump > may continue to run after the crash, something you might not desire if > there is a fuel leak upstreams). > If you wire to the alternator, nothing can go wrong, assuming that the > engine will stop at impact and the electricity is long gone before you > come to a stop. > > I must say that I'm a bit surprised how many people easily modify the > fuel system and/or electrical system, without understanding what the > reasons were why it was designed in that specific way. > > Don't fix something that isn't broken! > > Frans > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSV9HMAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzV3rgQAMDu70nGFerVnAtslTN4o8xZ > hFjFv16eoW1QwlTDSYccTEe9MIauAlC7jrJIR38sGGSo48qVNvOqy3i5ZfF7PSd9 > TWHc3Tw94iEzCKCOAkmSlwX24RrYw3AevkrIp1uSckw5h8Y9Jt1Klcv3ImbR3QoY > x0dukDs77SNDf74M2XKxkx549yppikv5gnDdAgUgTd6LoM1xCymWxwR5RiaOevB5 > TsyZG1817fG4IvtKndmKICjeTYhDCocoUOyCzT81fDKzCrphuGa0ZGLlWkMYQvP0 > S9CbTA7W5Xw41dRvHvNPfR+8pgxfzYPS047xEHtRWd7GRtlD7HbCcRLKXV2i9+Ju > /LSzXFMJF9bFHEGznmu9B1MIeYxfClNPXWq8w385DIvsESoLtcF5lC+y/iQmmMR7 > ByyyYUwrrjpnTsvZe7VqhcE6f2DuuLxsUvyGs9CIUD6SaIVlKDy3jLAWC3TgpxH+ > SV/ojBrMm/NPE7orCTg27AJ4k9sF0x2FDJ0yMdCf9jSRt7RYWyzKpai333WYeZVI > m8whEurerzq1SLkQeuv7EJBRcWFmd4L6m7bQHVGNDMv/grJWeWVeFPWw2A4/PPtc > QcoL9Q+/lud6DBfSNHvLemxgskAiiYFhxv0df9aszQSOKJSXbyoEE94AH0Nga755 > cm5DwBShBTpyiWacD+tJ > =G2IX > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>
Subject: GAR forms
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Anyone coming into UK from abroad (including those returning to UK after a trip overseas) may be interested in the following item I saw on the AOPA newsletter: AOPA UK has been informed that the system of designated airports through which GA can access the UK without filing a General Aviation Report has been abandoned by the UK Border Force without consultation, and that a GAR must be filed whichever point of entry is to be used. Border Force warns that a fine of 1,000 could be levied in case of default. AOPA is working to address the issue, and more information will be made available soon. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2013 02:47 PM, Pete wrote: > > Question though....is there not a a capacitor anywhere in the rotax > charging setup? If there is, the switches would not save one from > sparks as the charge on the capacitor will more than happily > provide a spark when it's wires get shorted in a crash. You can put a bleed resistor over the capacitor, which is a good common practice with all large capacitors. About 500 ohms (for a 12V setup) won't put a serious load on the capacitor but quickly drain it in a few seconds once the feeding voltage disappears. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSWABWAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVpGwP/iQ3J7pG1bBSIjdtoHb0MRUA FQE+ZDFKDeQJtadz7b09dD8pdtJ6IQQkWrmDjtubPtUrksx/eLcMqypKBOAmBk1H RP0FI4nn8YCbWiHBX7TT3ORQvorj+rZ+bWd4zjtPld0qWfkNsjKihUmQsxeK5rHz nlUToR2dy0AbY5DZ3PXAyAE/Nd1fGdbXKtFQ2xz+NxdKrKxAIi2Sf/rszQQyWi4b AAt3cHixdjy+bON8zjtBdMaMzlpJ2GAgfplgBUy8iNK6gdKgm+COT57js1jG0//a yvTYLLh3+4OszO0S+4sOkhAAbfxR6XlgwXv5op+Tye6jZflpKpZe2JY7Zzb6TEVq 4XhWZ0pUTv0WXU1rSke6yMR+VPAXd4x8/a1nAznqLNUWsxYjJ6Ec9CTo1b/mjzst 9WvDannXmE5YteujFj2FQ6kP0pKKLABNIRHZzJbb+RMfNS5y26/6tj1UJzheW195 uTNciYyauYmASBBm1oH0DcThic0bRzsYA1B+jGPpJGiruCQ9np5xHuIP0Adn/faB Gip5zbL9kUDp7hHJJg91gGMjpuKgG4M3y7f8j1+1Ms17lNpxNXKO+n00KCTCIUow jJpeDvwEinnBnTlVgy69A1d+gHdVhtxIC1XB2oKd0gLOgxU5TIFdCOPHs0T83n+t NvfpwrNpfW+48n0+cc1Y =qYh9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Hi Frans. I am getting a bit lost here, I think you are saying if my Alternator Fails I won't get the spark to keep the engine running, I am not sure if this is correct, surely my battery will keep the power to the ignition modules for a while.? or am I miss under standing you. With ref to the mechanical pump I believe some 914 in the world have been fitted, there is usually a way to get round cooling, maybe a thermal barrier in the gasket, or water jacket, I am not doing any of these mods, but i have learnt a few things from this topic which I will check out, and hope they are as stated on the forum. The 914 and the 912 I must say I find it hard to believe there is a huge temperature difference under the cowling, why is it so hot. regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410326#410326 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 11, 2013
From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2013 05:11 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > > > Hi Frans. I am getting a bit lost here, I think you are saying if > my Alternator Fails I won't get the spark to keep the engine > running, There are mutiple coils in this alternator. Two are used for the ignition, the rest for charging the battery. > I am not sure if this is correct, surely my battery will keep the > power to the ignition modules for a while.? No, the ignition coils are not connected to the battery. > With ref to the mechanical pump I believe some 914 in the world > have been fitted, there is usually a way to get round cooling, > maybe a thermal barrier in the gasket, or water jacket, Why would you go that complicated route if there is a better solution? > The 914 and the 912 I must say I find it hard to believe there is a > huge temperature difference under the cowling, why is it so hot. The 914 has a turbo. A turbo compresses the inlet air. A side effect of compressing air is that the temperature goes up. The inlet air passes through the carbs after it has been compressed (and heated!) by the turbo. So, as the carbs have quite a higher temperature than in the 912, it is not a good idea to feed them hot fuel as well. The combination of heat and fuel lead to an increased change of vapor lock and detonation. Hence the Rotax engineers made a few modifications to the fuel system: 1) The return feed is largely increased. This increases the flow, so the fuel stays a shorter time in the cowling and heat is transfered away. 2) The mechanical fuel pump (a heat source) is eliminated and replaced by cool running electrical pumps, that can remain outside of the hot cowling. 3) By changing the location of the fuel pump the fuel hose routing can be kept much shorter. Think about it: When the Rotax engineers developed the 914 they had already their convenient mechanical fuel pumps on the shelf. They sure must have a good reason to block off the fuel pump connector on the gear housing and change the whole setup. It is not wise to revert back to mechanical pumps, especially since there are no practical problems with the dual electrical pump setup. Hundreds of airplanes are flying happily around with them. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSWBmlAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVK38P/07h/NygULHBFjKMpeKEiQ3s dtg0njdsLgSnpn2DUJK4KNbg/goCnbLiC4kAwZvha+gtrNcRKe1CGay1P91IXwoz CdDTcB/zhX3DeX19QwwlkHiM9IaR9hvkjKT5+Dzld17/vyP9+tAI/E4rIhQZ60iq 5+VwWOKmunl+vB6Ms8WVVRWC5ga09tJ7dzdHlBeUGh5ZaiEbOWKtYkjQg878cKqu iGTiLRCKb74vKlyJhV+xu5SeUO+39o6ujNb5TvmZOVdsZbLgCotwrJRy5IqmB3mI B9Y8uJXwkbMIP0K3OkRvId047xTModdDDSSAuzl/k5a8xDF98kl6SHODy9tz2+7T vHzAUm7T9MJtSBiibz8Wful9MN2Om47cI39Ky6BcTlkjoL1+ChCbzp9doEBAOGpy Si5hr+zqTBrbEK1n0Nj3rwUjLQBGaYeZYR4c9IQD5alIW6xBxnS0MJuB+/TcZRrz 4c7/VGlnNEZL+c/APD4PElTJ364faVcordHiFIwa5TufLOGTkFg2QNuRWqyPmHvQ dHUyl0XR3rEM+7SKF8FhtPY95noh+bb/TmDLAmG075fYtrqPXyqsCTn8vJGXkC7O 19UZ9Gtu+7Jc+BFUzZdpJ3NusUTU/fkoPp14hcqe+JxyKm8Ifod54m1vCoqVqCRd fNVZyipBnEcr9U4NA0Ag =S322 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Alan, To reinforce the point that Frans has made, it's helpful to recognise that what is often referred to as "alternator failure" is actually failure of the rectifier/regulator feeding DC to the 12/14 V electrical system (and in the case of the 914 word according to the Europa circuit diagram, the 2nd electrical fuel pump). Failure of the actual alternator, which has permanent magnets rotating inside the fixed stator, such that both of the 2 independent coils that supply the ignition modules direct failed, would indeed be extremely rare. The point made earlier about bypassing the the master switch to provide a live feed from the battery to the trim switch was a subject of much discussion back in 1996. Ivan Shaw was insistent that in the event of smoke in the cockpit caused by a wiring fault, the immediate action would be to turn off the master switch and land as soon as possible - but the aircraft could be very difficult to control if they were large forces on the elevator because the trim could not be adjusted. Similarly, in later years people have fitted electrical stall warners - and again it would probably be a good idea to have this system working while attempting a sensible forced landing. The risk of either circuit (each protected by a very-low-value fuse) causing a fire during a crash landing I personally believe to be acceptable. Mike Dr Mike Gregory Europa Club Safety Officer -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: 11 October 2013 16:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions --> On 10/11/2013 05:11 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > > > Hi Frans. I am getting a bit lost here, I think you are saying if my > Alternator Fails I won't get the spark to keep the engine running, There are mutiple coils in this alternator. Two are used for the ignition, the rest for charging the battery. > I am not sure if this is correct, surely my battery will keep the > power to the ignition modules for a while.? No, the ignition coils are not connected to the battery. > With ref to the mechanical pump I believe some 914 in the world have > been fitted, there is usually a way to get round cooling, maybe a > thermal barrier in the gasket, or water jacket, Why would you go that complicated route if there is a better solution? > The 914 and the 912 I must say I find it hard to believe there is a > huge temperature difference under the cowling, why is it so hot. The 914 has a turbo. A turbo compresses the inlet air. A side effect of compressing air is that the temperature goes up. The inlet air passes through the carbs after it has been compressed (and heated!) by the turbo. So, as the carbs have quite a higher temperature than in the 912, it is not a good idea to feed them hot fuel as well. The combination of heat and fuel lead to an increased change of vapor lock and detonation. Hence the Rotax engineers made a few modifications to the fuel system: 1) The return feed is largely increased. This increases the flow, so the fuel stays a shorter time in the cowling and heat is transfered away. 2) The mechanical fuel pump (a heat source) is eliminated and replaced by cool running electrical pumps, that can remain outside of the hot cowling. 3) By changing the location of the fuel pump the fuel hose routing can be kept much shorter. Think about it: When the Rotax engineers developed the 914 they had already their convenient mechanical fuel pumps on the shelf. They sure must have a good reason to block off the fuel pump connector on the gear housing and change the whole setup. It is not wise to revert back to mechanical pumps, especially since there are no practical problems with the dual electrical pump setup. Hundreds of airplanes are flying happily around with them. Frans ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Oct 11, 2013
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan, > > I have been using a Varley Redtop 25 racing battery which is 16AH AGM > (absorbed glass matt). This is virtually identical spec to the Odyssey > PC680 which many people use for a Rotax 912S. It has provided perfect > starting for 6 years. The battery is behind the baggage bay and uses 4 > gauge battery cables. I have never seen more than 14.2 volts system voltage > and on a fully charged battery it is mostly at 13.8 volts. > > Provided you have good connections and big enough cable, I don't think you > will have any problems with a new Rotax 912S, even with the older starter, > as long as the sprag clutch is in good condition. > > Regards > > Brian Davies > Many thanks Brian. An endorsement is exactly what I needed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410345#410345 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Hi All Many thanks for the information given, there was a lot I did not know about the system, many of the points I agree with you all, but some I don't so will have to differ, Sorry Mike but I would go along with Ivan Shaw, by turning the master off. The trim forces from Straight and level to landing are minimal, my trim indicator only move a couple of divisions, stall warning I haven't , all I need is an ASI, next time I fly I will try a landing without touching the trim. See how I get on. How ever the wiring of the fuel pumps., I think think??? both of mine run on the ground with the Alternator Switch in the OFF position, is this standard, ie is the number 2 pump dual supplied by both battery and alternator. Or should it not run Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410349#410349 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Alan, Perhaps I did not make it clear that it was Ivan's point to insist that the pitch trim should remain live if you had to switch off the master switch, e.g. because of fumes in the cockpit, and he wanted to ensure that you did not have to fight high stick forces while trying to concentrate on landing. There is of course nothing to stop you switching off the trim and any other still live circuits once you are committed to a forced landing and are making the final approach. If you have one pump being fed directly from the alternator and the other from the bus bar, then they will both run when the engine is running regardless of whether the alternator switch is closed or open. You can then turn off the master switch connecting the bus to the battery, and you should find that the pump fed by the alternator remains running while the other stops. This is as close as you can get to independent power supplies for essential services when you have just one battery and one alternator. Regards, Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Carter Sent: 11 October 2013 21:21 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions --> Hi All Many thanks for the information given, there was a lot I did not know about the system, many of the points I agree with you all, but some I don't so will have to differ, Sorry Mike but I would go along with Ivan Shaw, by turning the master off. The trim forces from Straight and level to landing are minimal, my trim indicator only move a couple of divisions, stall warning I haven't , all I need is an ASI, next time I fly I will try a landing without touching the trim. See how I get on. How ever the wiring of the fuel pumps., I think think??? both of mine run on the ground with the Alternator Switch in the OFF position, is this standard, ie is the number 2 pump dual supplied by both battery and alternator. Or should it not run Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410349#410349 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Alan, Back in 2003 I was flying on my own out to Czech Republic, and approaching the border there was nothing but forest from horizon to horizon, and I was thinking what a bad place it would be for the engine to pack up! This thought possibly got to my bladder so I got my pee bottle out from under the left side of my thigh rest and leisurely sorted myself out. When I was all zipped up and strapped in again I looked at the panel to find to my dismay that everything electrical was showing no sign of life! My two electrical pumps immediately sprang to mind and I started a rapid check round the panel. I found that both master and alternator switches were off, having caught my left trouser bottom on the toggles. I switched them back on before there was any squeak from the engine and breathed a very big double sigh of relief! Being a public spirited sort of chap I felt I should own up on this forum to stop anyone else being so dumb and possibly not being so lucky. One of the technical whizzes from the company answered to say that as long as I had wired it to the standard instructions the engine would not stop anyway, and I checked this to be the case on my next flight. I would personally avoid doing any landings out of trim unless you cannot avoid it. You just need some other distraction for things to go seriously pear shaped. Half the ditching deaths in the Uk in the last 22years were actually due to the pilot losing control and effectively crashing, almost certainly because they had suddenly remembered they hadn't got their lifejacket on or their PLB out of the back, or whatever, and forgot about flying the plane. . Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hi All > Many thanks for the information given, there was a lot I >did not know about the system, many of the points I agree >with you all, but some I don't so will have to differ, > Sorry Mike but I would go along with Ivan Shaw, by >turning the master off. > The trim forces from Straight and level to landing are >minimal, my trim indicator only move a couple of >divisions, stall warning I haven't , all I need is an >ASI, next time I fly I will try a landing without >touching the trim. > See how I get on. > How ever the wiring of the fuel pumps., I think >think??? both of mine run on the ground with the >Alternator Switch in the OFF position, is this standard, >ie is the number 2 pump dual supplied by both battery and >alternator. > Or should it not run > Regards. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410349#410349 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 11, 2013
Hi David. You have flown to some wonderful places, Im UK only no longer have that confidence, when i was in my 20s yes I would have. Im no expert on the plane never looked into it, but all the planes I have flown the engine is entirely separate from the aircrafts electrics and you have just confirmed that with Master off and Alternator off and the a pump and spark keeps the engine going, or should do. So the spark is not influenced by either switch, and the pump get it power from either a separate circuit within the Alternator or the battery which will slowly run down. Rotax must say somewhere how long you have on battery and pump only. or maybe not? We know with the Master and Alternator off the engine will run OK. But with a serviceable system how do I check its failure capabilities ?? Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410354#410354 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 12, 2013
Alan, I get the impression that you are doing your very best to reinvent the wheel here. It ain't bust! Why try and fix it? David Joyce "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hi David. > You have flown to some wonderful places, Im UK only no >longer have that confidence, when i was in my 20s yes I >would have. > Im no expert on the plane never looked into it, but all >the planes I have flown the engine is entirely separate >from the aircrafts electrics and you have just confirmed >that with Master off and Alternator off and the a pump >and spark keeps the engine going, or should do. > So the spark is not influenced by either switch, > and the pump get it power from either a separate circuit >within the Alternator or the battery which will slowly >run down. > Rotax must say somewhere how long you have on battery >and pump only. > or maybe not? > We know with the Master and Alternator off the engine >will run OK. > But with a serviceable system how do I check its failure >capabilities ?? > > Regards > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410354#410354 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "craig" <craigb(at)onthenet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 12, 2013
Please keep in mind also that most fully wound type alternators will continue to charge As long as their speed is above about 800 rpm, even if the battery is completely removed >From the system, so on a permanent magnet alternator the result would be the same, so as long As the electric fuel pump and ignition (for the non magneto users) feed directly from the alternator which I believe someone Said is the case then you should be able to turn off the master and keep flying, shouldnt you? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Date: Oct 12, 2013
As stated by others the charging/ electrical power coils are separate from the ignition coils - basically as long as the engine is turning there will be power to the ignition circuit. We had an instance not so long ago where the ignition switch failed to short out the ignition circuit and the engine continued to run even though we had switched everything off. This is the normal arrangement for the majority of aircraft systems (ie: ignition will function even if the switch fails). The only way to stop the engine is to shut off the fuel. I'm a little puzzled though as to why the Rotax 914 has electric fuel pumps instead of the mechanical pump used on the 912 - anyone know the reason for this - or is a mechanical fuel pump optional. I had a look at the Rotax brochure on the 914 and the photo would suggest that a mechanical pump could be fitted if desired. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce Sent: 12 October 2013 09:12 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery questions --> Alan, I get the impression that you are doing your very best to reinvent the wheel here. It ain't bust! Why try and fix it? David Joyce "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hi David. > You have flown to some wonderful places, Im UK only no longer have >that confidence, when i was in my 20s yes I would have. > Im no expert on the plane never looked into it, but all the planes I >have flown the engine is entirely separate from the aircrafts electrics >and you have just confirmed that with Master off and Alternator off and >the a pump and spark keeps the engine going, or should do. > So the spark is not influenced by either switch, and the pump get it >power from either a separate circuit within the Alternator or the >battery which will slowly run down. > Rotax must say somewhere how long you have on battery and pump only. > or maybe not? > We know with the Master and Alternator off the engine will run OK. > But with a serviceable system how do I check its failure capabilities >?? > > Regards > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410354#410354 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery questions
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 12, 2013
Hi Carl. If you look back a few post Frans gave an explanation of why the 914 has electric pump, No David not trying to invent the wheel, but its as I thought in the first place the Master switch has no part to play in keeping the engine running, It all started from why is there no Mechanical Pump on the 914 , Rotax opted for a Dual electrical system, Personally I like Alternative system, ie Air, hydraulic, Mechanical, Vacuum, so I think the 912 has a better system, My Choice is, Alternative systems, Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410402#410402 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Hi, Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 course with a test and written examine , it must be done on an aircraft with a C of A, with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can not even do it on an American registered aircraft even with the gear, guess he had someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his comments not mine as I have not checked myself. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410429#410429 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Hi Alan. So you can't do it on a current C172 ? ADF is so last century I doubt if any aircraft made this century has a VOR and ADF. BTW Airbus 319;s certainly do not have either a VOR or an ADF. I could be wrong but. tim On 13 October 2013 19:43, Alan Carter wrote: > > > > Hi, > Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 course > with a test and written examine , it must be done on an aircraft with a C > of A, with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can > not even do it on an American registered aircraft even with the gear, guess > he had someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out > He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his comments not > mine as I have not checked myself. > Alan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410429#410429 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: Kevin Challis <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
I have just completed the IMC on my Europa. Kev On 13 Oct 2013, at 20:43, "Alan Carter" wrote: > > Hi, > Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 course with a test and written examine , it must be done on an aircraft with a C of A, with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can not even do it on an American registered aircraft even with the gear, guess he had someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out > He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his comments not mine as I have not checked myself. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410429#410429 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Hi Kevin. Well congratulations in passing the test, I must say I find it hard to believe my Examiner is wrong, as he is usually right, I am going back to him with my tail between my legs. Many thanks. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410434#410434 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "=?utf-8?B?cGV0ZUBsYXdsZXNzLmluZm8=?=" <pete(at)lawless.info>
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogU3ViIFBhbmVscy4uLi50aGFua3M=?
Date: Oct 13, 2013
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Subject: NDB Let downs
From: Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream.co.uk>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
A local Ryan Air Captain here tells me that he does NDB letdowns regularly as some of their destinations are not ILS equipped. I'm presuming it's probably the same with EasyJet. The young lad in my Hangar just gone professional and now has his CPL/IR (self funded!) and the IR certainly involved NDB letdowns. Regards Gerry Gerry Holland gholland@content-stream.co.uk +44 (0)7808 402404 White Ox Mead Airstrip, Bath. England ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 13, 2013
From: DAVID JOYCE <stranfaer(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: NDB Let downs
NDB usage is certainly part of the UK IMC test and training. VOR is also of course part of it.=0A-=0AAnd to finalise this discussion it is not legal to fly in IMC or train on our LAA permit Europa aircraft! which are cleare d for daylight VFR use only.=0A-=0Argds=0ADavid Joyce=0AThe other one.... =0A=0ASent to you from David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com=0A=0A =0A=0A_____ ___________________________=0A From: Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream .co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 13 October 2013, 2 1:24=0ASubject: Europa-List: NDB Let downs=0A =0A=0A=0AA local Ryan Air Ca ptain here tells me that he does NDB letdowns regularly as some of their de stinations are not ILS equipped.=0AI'm presuming it's probably the same wit h EasyJet.=0AThe young lad in my Hangar just gone professional and now has his CPL/IR (self funded!) and the IR certainly involved NDB letdowns.=0AReg ards=0AGerry=0AGerry Holland=0A=0Agholland@content-stream.co.uk=0A+44 (0)78 08 402404=0A=0AWhite Ox Mead Airstrip, Bath. England ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 13, 2013
From: DAVID JOYCE <stranfaer(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
Wouldn't advertise this to the CAA=0A-=0A......=0A=0ASent to you from Dav id Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com=0A=0A =0A=0A_______________________________ _=0A From: Kevin Challis <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk>=0ATo: "europa-list@m atronics.com" =0ASent: Sunday, 13 October 2013, 19:55=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks=0A =0A=0A--> E uropa-List message posted by: Kevin Challis =0A=0AI have just completed the IMC on my Europa.=0A=0AKev=0A=0A=0AOn 13 Oc t 2013, at 20:43, "Alan Carter" wrote:=0A=0A> -- =0A> =0A> Hi,=0A> Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 course with a test and written examine , it must be done on an airc raft with a C of A, with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can not even do it on an American registered aircraft even with t he gear, guess he had someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out=0A> He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his com ments not mine as I have not checked myself.=0A> Alan=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this topic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.matronics.com/view topic.php?p=410429#410429=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A ================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Subject: Re: NDB Let downs
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Hi Gerry. I bet you will find that his Ryanair bomber has a simulated ADF derived from INS and GPS systems I doubt they have an ADF receiver fitted. Knowing Ryanair I bet they charge the crew to use the equipment installed. Tim On 13 October 2013 21:24, Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream.co.uk>wrote: > A local Ryan Air Captain here tells me that he does NDB letdowns regularly > as some of their destinations are not ILS equipped. > I'm presuming it's probably the same with EasyJet. > The young lad in my Hangar just gone professional and now has his CPL/IR > (self funded!) and the IR certainly involved NDB letdowns. > Regards > Gerry > > *Gerry Holland* > *gholland@content-stream.co.uk > +44 (0)7808 402404* > > * > White Ox Mead Airstrip, Bath. England* > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NDB Let downs
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Hi. No problem with NDB approaches, a higher minima in ALT and Vis are used. Sometimes it VFR only landing, with an instrument approach with a break off height, then circle to land, often in mountainous terrain. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410441#410441 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NDB Let downs
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Tim Hi! You could be right on all counts! They seem to be fitted with Honeywell Quantum Line which does have VOR and ADF in the range somehow. Regards Gerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fan Panel, maybe helpfull to those who are not builders
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Hello All. I am posting this article mainly for the Europa owner who have not built there aircraft and have limited tools, Just a Ruler, Hammer, Hack Saw ,Drill and Files, and about 8 to 16 hours of time. I also thing it would be nice if others posted and shared little projects and ideas to do with the Europa. I have a converted Classic to Tri gear the builder used lock nuts and bolts on the instrument sub panels, as i work totally on my own with little confidence i did not want to remove the whole instrument panel. So cut a hole in the top of the instrument panel big enough to get my hand down, i practised first by cutting different size panels in a cardboard box , this end up with me choosing a panel size of two 92 mm fans as i could then remove my instrument if needed through the hole, I ended up being able to remove the lock nuts and re make my main instrument main sub panel removable, however my little fan panel hole is still very useful. Two 92 mm Fans, Two Fan grills, Piece of alloy sheet, 6 Allen Bolts and lock nuts, Araldite, and maybe some little bits of Wood. You can my parts in Photo, Mark out and Cut the letter box out, with an opening to take the two fans. Mark out and Make the Fan plate, mark out and cut out the shapes, Drill the holes and fit the Fans and grills, to the plate. Drop into letter box and drill fixing holes for Allen bolts, Allen bolts are used as you can remove with the windscreen in place. To anchor these bolts, i used a strip of alloy drilling and filing the shape of each of the six nuts in the strip and bonding with Araldite. As the fans are 25 mm in depth i had to raise the fan plate about 1/4 by Aralditing a strip of wood round the edge to raise the fan clear of an instrument. Clean up and paint, Does not look much but it took me about 8 hours so far. Then. Mask Windscreen , work carefully use letter box to mark, then cut hole, thought this was plastic, Stanley Knife did not work, ended up cutting with half an hack Saw Blade small file, and sand paper,its actually made of Glass Fibre and a bit tougher than i thought. Make the six fixing holes in Glass fibre, then slid Letter Box underside and Araldite up, hold in place with bull dog clips, When set screw in Fan plate and wire up. Serves two purposes, maintenance panel and demister, I hope this is useful and of help to some none builders. The other bit is my FFM Panel goes in where the gear lever was, Cardboard denotes skin. Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410443#410443 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1086_477.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1089_204.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1089_194.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: Kevin Challis <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Still NDB, SRA, DME ARC, ILS using ADF, VOR, DME. But NOT GPS. Even though I understand they are switching These aids are off in the future. Kev On 13 Oct 2013, at 21:14, "pete(at)lawless.info" wrote: > Congratulations Kev > > What sort of IFR approaches do you have to fly these days? presumably you were not required to fly an ndb - the vintage nonsence we used to have to p erform. > > Pete > > > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "Kevin Challis" <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk> > To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks > Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 19:55 > .uk> > > I have just completed the IMC on my Europa. > > Kev > > > On 13 Oct 2013, at 20:43, "Alan Carter" wrote: > et> > > > > Hi, > > Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 course w ith a test and written examine , it must be done on an aircraft with a C of A , with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can not e ven do it on an American registered aircraft even with the gear, guess he ha d someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out > > He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his comments no t mine as I have not checked myself. > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410429#410429 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by Houxou, and is > believed to be clean. > > )=C2=AD=C3=C3=9F=C2=A2{l=B97=C2=B6r=B0h=C2=AFM4=C3=93M=1Fi=C3 =87=C5=93=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=ABN=17 =9E=C2=BA=C2=BA)h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4I=C5=A1=C5-Qh=C2=AE=C3=A9=9D=C2=B1 =C3=ABax=C3=86=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=82=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=91^j=C3=9B=C2 =ABz=C3=83Z=C2=BE(=1A=C2=B6=C5-=C3=AD=C2=A1=C2=BA=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=C2=AD =C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB ,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6 *'=02=C2=B7!=C5-=C3=B7=99y=C2=C3=9C=9E:0=C5=BEZ=1Aw=C2=B0=C3 =9A=C3=88=1A=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=9A=C2=ABE=01=03=C3=A1=C2=A2=C3 =9A,=C2=C3=9Ejwf=C2=B9=C3=88f=C2=B9=C3=88f=C2=A2=C2=B7=C5=A1 -=C2=B7=C5=B8-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2 r=C3=87(=BA=C3=B3Z=C2=BE(=1A=C2=B6=C5-=C3=84=C2=BA=C2=BA)h=C2=B8=C2=AC =C2=B6=1Bm=C2=A7=C3=C3=B0=C3=83 =C5=A1=C2=B6=C2=BA'=B0=C3=8B=1C =C2=A2o=C3=8Dj=C3=B8 j=C3=9A+=12=C3=C3=A8=C2=A5=C2=A2=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9F=C3 =9A0=04=C3=918=C3=92=02Ia=01=14=C3=A4T1$=C5=A1=84=A2=C3=A8+y=C2=AB\=C2=A2 {^=C5=BE=C3'=C2=A5=C2=B2-=C2=AFj)ZnW=C2=AF=B0=C2=ABayg =BA=16=C5-=C3=AE=C5=A1=C3=86=C2=A1=C2=AD=C3=A7=C3=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=BD=C3 =BA+=C2=BAk&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=BD=C3=BA +=C2=BAk&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4*'=C2=B6=C2 =B8=BA=C2=BA=C3=98=C2=A8=C2=9Dg=BAJ+^N=16=C2=A7=9C*.~=C5- =C3=B2=C2=A2=C3=C3-zw=C2=AB=C2=A2=C3=AB,=C2=BA=C5=A1h=C2=AE=C3=93=1A=C2 =B6=C3=90=C3=ABjY^.+-=01=C3=99=C2=A2=C2=9D=C2=A8ky=C3=B8m=C2=B6=C5=B8=C3=C3 =83=0C&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2r=B0=C3=AD=C2=AE&=C3=AE=C2 =B6*'-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=87( =BA=C3=B7(=C5=BE=C3=9A=C3=A2n=C3=ABb=C2=A2=7F=C3=9A=C3=BD=C2=C3=9F=C2 =A2{=7F=C2=C2=B7=C2n=A1r=C3=BE=1Bf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fan Panel, maybe helpfull to those who are not builders
From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Alan, Impeccable work...makes me wonder what a whole plane under your hand would be like... Envious that you're flying, Fred On Oct 13, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > > Hello All. > I am posting this article mainly for the Europa owner who have not built there aircraft and have limited tools, ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: Kevin Challis <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
You don't have to be in IMC to train, you use a Sight limiting device I used plastic glasses that only allow you to see the panel. It would be illegal to fly in cloud in a Europa but if I get stuck I would p refer to break the law and land than crash! The IMC is a get out of trouble r ating anyway. Kev On 13 Oct 2013, at 23:34, Kevin Challis wrote: > Still NDB, SRA, DME ARC, ILS using ADF, VOR, DME. But NOT GPS. Even though I understand they are switching These aids are off in the future. > > Kev > > > On 13 Oct 2013, at 21:14, "pete(at)lawless.info" wrote: > >> Congratulations Kev >> >> What sort of IFR approaches do you have to fly these days? presumably yo u were not required to fly an ndb - the vintage nonsence we used to have to p erform. >> >> Pete >> >> >> ----- Reply message ----- >> From: "Kevin Challis" <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk> >> To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" >> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks >> Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 19:55 >> o.uk> >> >> I have just completed the IMC on my Europa. >> >> Kev >> >> >> On 13 Oct 2013, at 20:43, "Alan Carter" wrote: >> net> >> > >> > Hi, >> > Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 course with a test and written examine , it must be done on an aircraft with a C o f A, with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can no t even do it on an American registered aircraft even with the gear, guess he had someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out >> > He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his comments n ot mine as I have not checked myself. >> > Alan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410429#410429 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ========================= ========= >> cs.com >> ========================= ========= >> matronics.com/contribution >> ========================= ========= >> >> >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by Houxou, and is >> believed to be clean. >> >> )=C2=AD=C3=C3=9F=C2=A2{l=B97=C2=B6r=B0h=C2=AFM4=C3=93M=1Fi =C3=87=C5=93=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=ABN=17 =9E=C2=BA=C2=BA)h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4I=C5=A1=C5-Qh=C2=AE=C3=A9=9D=C2 =B1=C3=ABax=C3=86=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=82=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=91^j=C3=9B =C2=ABz=C3=83Z=C2=BE(=1A=C2=B6=C5-=C3=AD=C2=A1=C2=BA=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=C2=AD =C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3 =AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2 =B6*'=02=C2=B7!=C5-=C3=B7=99y=C2=C3=9C=9E:0=C5=BEZ=1Aw=C2=B0 =C3=9A=C3=88=1A=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=9A=C2=ABE=01=03=C3=A1=C2=A2 =C3=9A,=C2=C3=9Ejwf=C2=B9=C3=88f=C2=B9=C3=88f=C2=A2=C2=B7=C5=A1 -=C2=B7=C5=B8-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3 =A2r=C3=87(=BA=C3=B3Z=C2=BE(=1A=C2=B6=C5-=C3=84=C2=BA=C2=BA)h=C2=B8=C2 =AC=C2=B6=1Bm=C2=A7=C3=C3=B0=C3=83 =C5=A1=C2=B6=C2=BA'=B0=C3=8B=1C =C2=A2o=C3=8Dj=C3=B8 j=C3=9A+=12=C3=C3=A8=C2=A5=C2=A2=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9F=C3 =9A0=04=C3=918=C3=92=02Ia=01=14=C3=A4T1$=C5=A1=84=A2=C3=A8+y=C2=AB\=C2=A2 {^=C5=BE=C3'=C2=A5=C2=B2-=C2=AFj)ZnW=C2=AF=B0=C2=ABayg =BA=16=C5-=C3=AE=C5=A1=C3=86=C2=A1=C2=AD=C3=A7=C3=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=BD=C3 =BA+=C2=BAk&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=BD=C3=BA +=C2=BAk&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4*'=C2=B6=C2 =B8=BA=C2=BA=C3=98=C2=A8=C2=9Dg=BAJ+^N=16=C2=A7=9C*.~=C5- =C3=B2=C2=A2=C3=C3-zw=C2=AB=C2=A2=C3=AB,=C2=BA=C5=A1h=C2=AE=C3=93=1A=C2 =B6=C3=90=C3=ABjY^.+-=01=C3=99=C2=A2=C2=9D=C2=A8ky=C3=B8m=C2=B6=C5=B8=C3=C3 =83=0C&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2r=B0=C3=AD=C2=AE&=C3=AE=C2 =B6*'-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=87( =BA=C3=B7(=C5=BE=C3=9A=C3=A2n=C3=ABb=C2=A2=7F=C3=9A=C3=BD=C2=C3=9F=C2 =A2{=7F=C2=C2=B7=C2n=A1r=C3=BE=1Bf > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
Date: Oct 13, 2013
Kev What have you got installed by way of avionics in the aeroplane? Sounds like you have a full fit. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Challis Sent: 13 October 2013 22:34 Subject: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Still NDB, SRA, DME ARC, ILS using ADF, VOR, DME. But NOT GPS. Even though I understand they are switching These aids are off in the future. Kev On 13 Oct 2013, at 21:14, "pete(at)lawless.info" wrote: Congratulations Kev What sort of IFR approaches do you have to fly these days? presumably you were not required to fly an ndb - the vintage nonsence we used to have to perform. Pete ----- Reply message ----- From: "Kevin Challis" <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 19:55 I have just completed the IMC on my Europa. Kev On 13 Oct 2013, at 20:43, "Alan Carter" wrote: > > Hi, > Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 course with a test and written examine , it must be done on an aircraft with a C of A, with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can not even do it on an American registered aircraft even with the gear, guess he had someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out > He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his comments not mine as I have not checked myself. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410429#410429 > > > > > > > > > > ========= tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Houxou, and is believed to be clean. )=C2=AD=C3=C3=9F=C2=A2{l=B97=C2=B6r=B0h=C2=AFM4=C3=93M=C2=AD i=C3=87=C5=93=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=ABN =9E=C2=BA=C2=BA)h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4I=C5=A1=C5-Qh=C2=AE=C3=A9=9D =C2=B1=C3=ABax=C3=86=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=82=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=91^ j=C3=9B=C2=ABz=C3=83Z=C2=BE(=C2=B6=C5-=C3=AD=C2=A1=C2=BA=C3=A8=C3=82=C3 =87=C2=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD =B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=AC r=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'[1]=C2=B7!=C5-=C3=B7=99y=C2=C3=9C=9E :0=C5=BEZw=C2=B0=C3=9A=C3=88=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=9A=C2=ABE _____ =C3=A1=C2=A2=C3=9A,=C2=C3=9Ejwf=C2=B9=C3=88f=C2=B9=C3=88f=C2=A2 =C2=B7=C5=A1-=C2=B7=C5=B8-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD =C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=87(=BA=C3=B3Z=C2=BE(=C2=B6=C5-=C3=84=C2 =BA=C2=BA)h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B6m=C2=A7=C3=C3=B0=C3=83 =C5=A1=C2=B6=C2=BA'=B0=C3=8B=1C=C2=A2o=C3=8Dj=C3=B8 j=C3=9A+=12=C3=C3=A8=C2=A5=C2=A2=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9F=C3=9A0 _____ =C3=918=C3=92[1]Ia=14=C3=A4T1$=C5=A1=84=A2=C3=A8+y=C2=AB\=C2=A2{^=C5=BE =C3'=C2=A5=C2=B2-=C2=AFj)ZnW=C2=AF=B0=C2=ABayg=BA=C5 -=C3=AE=C5=A1=C3=86=C2=A1=C2=AD=C3=A7=C3=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=BD=C3=BA+ =C2=BAk&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=BD=C3=BA+ =C2=BAk&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4*'=C2=B6=C2 =B8=BA=C2=BA=C3=98=C2=A8=C2=9Dg=BAJ+^N=C2=A7=9C*.~=C5- =C3=B2=C2=A2=C3=C3-zw=C2=AB=C2=A2=C3=AB,=C2=BA=C5=A1h=C2=AE=C3=93=C2 =B6=C3=90=C3=ABjY^.+-=C3=99=C2=A2=C2=9D=C2=A8ky=C3=B8m=C2=B6=C5=B8=C3=C3 =83 &j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2r=B0=C3=AD=C2=AE&=C3=AE=C2=B6 *'-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=87( =BA=C3=B7(=C5=BE=C3=9A=C3=A2n=C3=ABb=C2=A2=7F=C3=9A=C3=BD=C2=C3=9F =C2=A2{=7F=C2=C2=B7=C2n=A1r=C3=BEf -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by <http://www.houxou.com/> Houxou, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: Bob Hitchcock <robert.hitchcock(at)virgin.net>
Date: Oct 13, 2013
http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/2012/Magazine/July/instruments%20q ualifications.pdf On 13 Oct 2013, at 22:48, Kevin Challis wrote: > You don't have to be in IMC to train, you use a Sight limiting device I us ed plastic glasses that only allow you to see the panel. > > It would be illegal to fly in cloud in a Europa but if I get stuck I would prefer to break the law and land than crash! The IMC is a get out of troubl e rating anyway. > > Kev > > > On 13 Oct 2013, at 23:34, Kevin Challis wrot e: > >> Still NDB, SRA, DME ARC, ILS using ADF, VOR, DME. But NOT GPS. Even thoug h I understand they are switching These aids are off in the future. >> >> Kev >> >> >> On 13 Oct 2013, at 21:14, "pete(at)lawless.info" wrote: >> >>> Congratulations Kev >>> >>> What sort of IFR approaches do you have to fly these days? presumably y ou were not required to fly an ndb - the vintage nonsence we used to have to perform. >>> >>> Pete >>> >>> >>> ----- Reply message ----- >>> From: "Kevin Challis" <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk> >>> To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" >>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks >>> Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 19:55 >>> co.uk> >>> >>> I have just completed the IMC on my Europa. >>> >>> Kev >>> >>> >>> On 13 Oct 2013, at 20:43, "Alan Carter" wrote : >>> .net> >>> > >>> > Hi, >>> > Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 cours e with a test and written examine , it must be done on an aircraft with a C o f A, with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can no t even do it on an American registered aircraft even with the gear, guess he had someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out >>> > He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his comments n ot mine as I have not checked myself. >>> > Alan >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Read this topic online here: >>> > >>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410429#410429 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> ======================== >>> tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>> ======================== >>> cs.com >>> ======================== >>> matronics.com/contribution >>> ======================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This message has been scanned for viruses and >>> dangerous content by Houxou, and is >>> believed to be clean. >>> >>> )=C2=AD=C3=C3=9F=C2=A2{l=B97=C2=B6r=B0h=C2=AFM4=C3=93M=1F i=C3=87=C5=93=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=ABN=17 =9E=C2=BA=C2=BA)h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4I=C5=A1=C5-Qh=C2=AE=C3=A9=9D=C2 =B1=C3=ABax=C3=86=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=82=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=91^j=C3=9B =C2=ABz=C3=83Z=C2=BE(=1A=C2=B6=C5-=C3=AD=C2=A1=C2=BA=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=C2=AD =C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3 =AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2 =B6*'=02=C2=B7!=C5-=C3=B7=99y=C2=C3=9C=9E:0=C5=BEZ=1Aw=C2=B0 =C3=9A=C3=88=1A=C3=A8=C3=82=C3=87=9A=C2=ABE=01=03=C3=A1=C2=A2 =C3=9A,=C2=C3=9Ejwf=C2=B9=C3=88f=C2=B9=C3=88f=C2=A2=C2=B7=C5=A1 -=C2=B7=C5=B8-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3 =A2r=C3=87(=BA=C3=B3Z=C2=BE(=1A=C2=B6=C5-=C3=84=C2=BA=C2=BA)h=C2=B8=C2 =AC=C2=B6=1Bm=C2=A7=C3=C3=B0=C3=83 =C5=A1=C2=B6=C2=BA'=B0=C3=8B=1C =C2=A2o=C3=8Dj=C3=B8 j=C3=9A+=12=C3=C3=A8=C2=A5=C2=A2=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9F=C3 =9A0=04=C3=918=C3=92=02Ia=01=14=C3=A4T1$=C5=A1=84=A2=C3=A8+y=C2=AB\=C2=A2 {^=C5=BE=C3'=C2=A5=C2=B2-=C2=AFj)ZnW=C2=AF=B0=C2=ABayg =BA=16=C5-=C3=AE=C5=A1=C3=86=C2=A1=C2=AD=C3=A7=C3=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=BD=C3 =BA+=C2=BAk&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2=A1=C2=B6=C3=9A=7F=C3=BD=C3=BA +=C2=BAk&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2h=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4*'=C2=B6=C2 =B8=BA=C2=BA=C3=98=C2=A8=C2=9Dg=BAJ+^N=16=C2=A7=9C*.~=C5- =C3=B2=C2=A2=C3=C3-zw=C2=AB=C2=A2=C3=AB,=C2=BA=C5=A1h=C2=AE=C3=93=1A=C2 =B6=C3=90=C3=ABjY^.+-=01=C3=99=C2=A2=C2=9D=C2=A8ky=C3=B8m=C2=B6=C5=B8=C3=C3 =83=0C&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',r=B0=C2r=B0=C3=AD=C2=AE&=C3=AE=C2 =B6*'-=C3=9Bi=C3=C3=BC0=C3=82f=C2=AD=C2=AE=B0=C3=A2r=C3=87( =BA=C3=B7(=C5=BE=C3=9A=C3=A2n=C3=ABb=C2=A2=7F=C3=9A=C3=BD=C2=C3=9F=C2 =A2{=7F=C2=C2=B7=C2n=A1r=C3=BE=1Bf >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ========================= ========= >> cs.com >> ========================= ========= >> matronics.com/contribution >> ========================= ========= >> > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: Kevin Challis <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
Pete I am very poor, I didn't build the plane. The previous owner / builder was v ery rich and fitted the plane out with ILS, VOR, DME etc. Unfortunately he d idn't seem to spend very much on the paint job but I bought it for a good pr ice so I can't moan. Kev On 13 Oct 2013, at 23:59, "Pete Lawless" wrote: > Kev > > What have you got installed by way of avionics in the aeroplane? =C3=82 So unds like you have a full fit. > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Challis > Sent: 13 October 2013 22:34 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thank s > > =C3=82 Still NDB, SRA, DME ARC, ILS using ADF, VOR, DME. But NOT GPS. Even though I understand they are switching These aids are off in the future. > > Kev > > > On 13 Oct 2013, at 21:14, "pete(at)lawless.info" wrote: > >> Congratulations Kev >> >> What sort of IFR approaches do you have to fly these days? presumably yo u were not required to fly an ndb - the vintage nonsence we used to have to p erform. >> >> Pete >> >> >> ----- Reply message ----- >> From: "Kevin Challis" <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk> >> To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" >> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks >> Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 19:55 >> >> o.uk> >> >> I have just completed the IMC on my Europa. >> >> Kev >> >> >> On 13 Oct 2013, at 20:43, "Alan Carter" wrote: >> net> >> > >> > Hi, >> > Met my Examiner friend today, and he said the IMC rating is a 15 course with a test and written examine , it must be done on an aircraft with a C o f A, with the appropriate equipment including a VOR and ADF, also you can no t even do it on an American registered aircraft even with the gear, guess he had someone who wanted to do one on a N reg, and checked it out >> > He seemed quit confident in his facts, I am just posting his comments n ot mine as I have not checked myself. >> > Alan >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410429#410429 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ========================= ========= >> cs.com >> ========================= ========= >> matronics.com/contribution >> ========================= ========= >> >> >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by Houxou, and is >> believed to be clean. >> >> )=C3=82=C2=AD=C3=83=C2=C3=83=C5=B8=C3=82=C2=A2{l=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=B97 =C3=82=C2=B6r=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=B0h=C3=82=C2=AFM4=C3=83=9CM=C3=82=C2=AD i=C3=83=A1=C3=85=9C=C3=82=C2=A2=C3=83=C2=C3=83=C2=A2z=C3=82=C2 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r=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=B0=C3=83=C2=AD=C3=82=C2=AE&=C3=83=C2=AE=C3=82=C2=B6*'=C3 =A2=82=AC =C3=83=BAi=C3=83=C2=C3=83=C2=BC0=C3=83=9Af=C3=82 =C2=AD=C3=82=C2=AE=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=B0=C3=83=C2=A2r=C3=83=A1(=C3=A2 =82=AC=C2=BA=C3=83=C2=B7(=C3=85=C2=BE=C3=83=C5=A1=C3=83=C2=A2n=C3=83=C2=ABb=C3 =82=C2=A2=7F=C3=83=C5=A1=C3=83=C2=BD=C3=82=C2=C3=83=C5=B8=C3=82=C2=A2{=7F =C3=82=C2=C3=82=C2=B7=C3=82=C2n=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=A1r=C3=83=C2=BEf > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by Houxou, and is > believed to be clean. > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
Date: Oct 14, 2013
Morning Kev I am amazed all that kit must weigh a ton! Be inclined to sell it and replace with a couple of GPS. You would probably have money left over towards a respray. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Challis Sent: 14 October 2013 05:51 Subject: Re: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks Pete I am very poor, I didn't build the plane. The previous owner / builder was very rich and fitted the plane out with ILS, VOR, DME etc. Unfortunately he didn't seem to spend very much on the paint job but I bought it for a good price so I can't moan. Kev ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
Hello All. I am get very confused here, but that's not unusually for me. I have again spoken to my Examiner, he said he is an Instructor/Examiner with over 40 years experience, and he has justs said you can-not do an IMC on a permit aircraft, and if you have done your 15 hours on a Europa the CAA will throw it back at you. You can fly around under the hood in your Europa practising IMC with an instructor but you can not log it towards an IMC rating. He said the Aircraft must have a Private C of A or a Public C of A and you can not even do it on an American Registered Aircraft. He is absolutely sure of himself. What more can I say.!!!, I am beginning to feel that I am making all of this up. So please can anybody out there verify if he is correct or not as I am bewildered as both are adamant they are right. Because if he is not correct, in his facts,( but the sod usually always is correct in his facts) We can all do IMC ratings using our Europa's. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410478#410478 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fan Panel, maybe helpfull to those who are not builders
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
Hi All. Thanks for your kind words Fred, but I am not doing much flying at the moment , INPORTATANT. I have had a couple of e-mails asking about cutting the hole in the top of the instrument panel. I would not like anybody to damage there aircraft so be careful, your hand will rub again the windscreen when cutting and even a small fragment on your skin will mark the perspecs of the screen. So protect the area with a piece of cardboard , and use a good light to see what you are doing. use a Tool of you choice, but a simple half hack saw blade will do, rub back and forth will slowly penetrate the surface, once through its cut easy. Remember to cut with the saw teeth on the pulling stroke, Remember to keep the blade very shallow angle, as you don't want to cut anything that you can not see on the other side of the panel. Its easy to do ,just a bit slow, If you wanted and felt confident you could loosen and move the whole instrument panel forward an inch or two, but I managed without doing this OK. Regards. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410480#410480 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion. Cannot post an extract on my phone. Alan Burrill Sent from my iPhone > On 14 Oct 2013, at 10:36, "Alan Carter" wrote: > > > Hello All. > I am get very confused here, but that's not unusually for me. > I have again spoken to my Examiner, he said he is an Instructor/Examiner with over 40 years experience, and he has justs said you can-not do an IMC on a permit aircraft, and if you have done your 15 hours on a Europa the CAA will throw it back at you. > You can fly around under the hood in your Europa practising IMC with an instructor but you can not log it towards an IMC rating. > He said the Aircraft must have a Private C of A or a Public C of A > and you can not even do it on an American Registered Aircraft. > He is absolutely sure of himself. What more can I say.!!!, I am beginning to feel that I am making all of this up. > > So please can anybody out there verify if he is correct or not as I am bewildered as both are adamant they are right. > > Because if he is not correct, in his facts,( but the sod usually always is correct in his facts) > We can all do IMC ratings using our Europa's. > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410478#410478 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: Kevin Challis <kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
It's got 2 GPS's as well! Kev On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:12, "Pete Lawless" wrote: > Morning Kev > > I am amazed all that kit must weigh a ton! Be inclined to sell it and rep lace with a couple of GPS. You would probably have money left over towards a respray. > > Regards > > Pete > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Challis > Sent: 14 October 2013 05:51 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: {Spam?} Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....t hanks > > Pete > > I am very poor, I didn't build the plane. The previous owner / builder was very rich and fitted the plane out with ILS, VOR, DME etc. Unfortunately he didn't seem to spend very much on the paint job but I bought it for a good p rice so I can't moan. > > Kev > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
Try reading, Ow Yer, OOOPs Google Link Broken. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410485#410485 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks]
From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:07, Alan Burrill wrote: > I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion. > > Cannot post an extract on my phone. You can see all the AICs at: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=159&Itemid=56.html and can choose W 001/2011 from the 2011 section. Here's the bit that Alan refers to pasted in: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 4.4 Operating under a Permit to Fly 4.4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members. 4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = So, yes, in the UK you can have and pay for instruction in your group-owned Europa, but NOT for a new licence or rating. Thus IF it was a jointly-owned machine, the advice to another poster not to tell the CAA that he trained for his IMC in a Europa would appear to be wise, if he doesn't want the book thrown at him and probably lose his rating. However, section 4.4 applies only to jointly-owned permit types. The section for sole ownership is slightly different and does not exclude training for initial issue of a licence or rating. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 3 Solely-owned non-EASA Aircraft 3.1 Article 259(2) of the Air Navigation Order (ANO) 2009 states that 'If the only such valuable consideration consists of remuneration for the services of the pilot, the flight is deemed to be a private flight for the purposes of Part 3 and Part 4'. 3.2 The result of this is that a person who owns an aircraft outright and does not have to pay for anything else in relation to the flight is permitted to pay an instructor for training in their private aircraft. Likewise, a person who has free use of an aircraft is also permitted to pay an instructor for training in the aircraft, although this situation usually only arises when a close friend or member of the owner's family wishes to use the aircraft. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The difference in the rules between joint and sole ownership is also made clear in the flowchart at Appendix A of the document, where no conditions are applied to training in sole-owned permit machines. I can see that there is some opportunity for confusion, but it appears that everyone who expressed an opinion on this topic was correct to some degree! in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks]
Date: Oct 14, 2013
LAA Technical Leaflet 2.09 says Initial Licence or Rating 2. An owner may receive remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training towards an initial licence or rating in his own LAA aircraft provided he is a 'sole' owner and not part of a group ownership. (Direct family members of the owner's immediate family are also acceptable). 3. The solo part of the PPL syllabus can be carried out in a single seat LAA aircraft as long as the aircraft is similar to that being used for dual instruction, is suitably equipped, and the instructor is satisfied that it is compatible with accepted flight training practices. 4. 'Simulated' instrument training as required by the PPL syllabus, and training towards the IMC or IR(R) rating is acceptable in a LAA aircraft provided it is suitably equipped. 5. Examination, as required by the PPL syllabus, may be carried out in a LAA aircraft, but only if un-remunerated. The aircraft must also be suitably equipped. In order to get a further interpretation of this situation I have asked Jon Cooke the Chairman of the LAA Pilot Coaching scheme to comment further. I will post his reply as soon as it arrives. Brian Davies LAA board member -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Sent: 14 October 2013 15:02 Subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] --> On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:07, Alan Burrill wrote: > I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion. > > Cannot post an extract on my phone. You can see all the AICs at: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blo gcategory&id=159&Itemid=56.html and can choose W 001/2011 from the 2011 section. Here's the bit that Alan refers to pasted in: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 4.4 Operating under a Permit to Fly 4.4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members. 4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = So, yes, in the UK you can have and pay for instruction in your group-owned Europa, but NOT for a new licence or rating. Thus IF it was a jointly-owned machine, the advice to another poster not to tell the CAA that he trained for his IMC in a Europa would appear to be wise, if he doesn't want the book thrown at him and probably lose his rating. However, section 4.4 applies only to jointly-owned permit types. The section for sole ownership is slightly different and does not exclude training for initial issue of a licence or rating. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 3 Solely-owned non-EASA Aircraft 3.1 Article 259(2) of the Air Navigation Order (ANO) 2009 states that 'If the only such valuable consideration consists of remuneration for the services of the pilot, the flight is deemed to be a private flight for the purposes of Part 3 and Part 4'. 3.2 The result of this is that a person who owns an aircraft outright and does not have to pay for anything else in relation to the flight is permitted to pay an instructor for training in their private aircraft. Likewise, a person who has free use of an aircraft is also permitted to pay an instructor for training in the aircraft, although this situation usually only arises when a close friend or member of the owner's family wishes to use the aircraft. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The difference in the rules between joint and sole ownership is also made clear in the flowchart at Appendix A of the document, where no conditions are applied to training in sole-owned permit machines. I can see that there is some opportunity for confusion, but it appears that everyone who expressed an opinion on this topic was correct to some degree! in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
Hi. Is this it. I am still not sure, never been good at wording. Under Note. It appears to say to me you can't do any initial rating. Anyone is that correct, just a simple yes or No then I can forget about it. .4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members. 4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410511#410511 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Mine's Pink!
From: "Scudrunner" <howardbrooksster(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
..The monowheel rubber suspension block that is! But I hear black is this season's colour? Can anyone remember the history here - I have an early classic (84) and am rebuilding the monowheel suspension [Embarassed] I do have dampers and the pink block looks to be in good condition (and is supplemented by a 8mm plywood sheet!). Any offers of parts from trigear convertees welcome (based Sussex) Howard Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410512#410512 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks
From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>
Date: Oct 14, 2013
Hi, Found it. 1.1 It is often thought that flying training is not permitted in private aircraft, or at least that only a limited amount of training is allowed. In fact, there is no restriction on training in private aircraft, but as with any activity in an aircraft that is normally only used for private recreational purposes there are restrictions on what can be paid1 for in relation to the flight. 1.2 The basic position is that if someone pays for something in relation to a flight, the flight is no longer private, but either aerial work, public transport or commercial air transport. Aircraft that operate under a Certificate of Airworthiness (CofA) and are only maintained to a standard appropriate for private use or aircraft that operate under a Permit to Fly (hereafter jointly referred to as 'private aircraft') can only be used for private flights. Then it goes on further down to this. Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc. I never understand the wording of these things, But to me it looks like you can't,, I think I will go along with that, unless someone tells me different.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410513#410513 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies(at)dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sub Panels....thanks]
Date: Oct 14, 2013
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Davies [mailto:brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk] Sent: 14 October 2013 16:33 Subject: RE: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] LAA Technical Leaflet 2.09 says Initial Licence or Rating 2. An owner may receive remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training towards an initial licence or rating in his own LAA aircraft provided he is a 'sole' owner and not part of a group ownership. (Direct family members of the owner's immediate family are also acceptable). 3. The solo part of the PPL syllabus can be carried out in a single seat LAA aircraft as long as the aircraft is similar to that being used for dual instruction, is suitably equipped, and the instructor is satisfied that it is compatible with accepted flight training practices. 4. 'Simulated' instrument training as required by the PPL syllabus, and training towards the IMC or IR(R) rating is acceptable in a LAA aircraft provided it is suitably equipped. 5. Examination, as required by the PPL syllabus, may be carried out in a LAA aircraft, but only if un-remunerated. The aircraft must also be suitably equipped. In order to get a further interpretation of this situation I have asked Jon Cooke the Chairman of the LAA Pilot Coaching scheme to comment further. I will post his reply as soon as it arrives. Brian Davies LAA board member -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Sent: 14 October 2013 15:02 Subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] --> On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:07, Alan Burrill wrote: > I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion. > > Cannot post an extract on my phone. You can see all the AICs at: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blo gcategory&id=159&Itemid=56.html and can choose W 001/2011 from the 2011 section. Here's the bit that Alan refers to pasted in: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 4.4 Operating under a Permit to Fly 4.4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations: a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft. b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate. c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the

September 23, 2013 - October 14, 2013

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