Europa-Archive.digest.vol-or
November 14, 2022 - December 27, 2022
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
Thanks very much, Will, I now understand. Sounds like a smart way of
getting a good engine combination.
Cheers,
Brian Phillips.
On 14/11/2022 12:42 am, William Daniell wrote:
> Yup - the original 2.27:1 wouldnt make the revs with the airmaster
> even in Guaymaral at 8500. My previous plane a ICP Savannah with an
> Ivo had no problem with the 2.27 gearbox. I had the ivo with the
> narrow blades. The 914 gearbox is 2.43:1.
>
> Theres a lot of experience with this conversion in Colombia - they
> even claim they turbo-ed the 912 before rotax. It could be true - you
> never know with Colombia. But in any case I wasnt the pioneer. Its
> a well understood process. The chap who did it for me turned up all
> the required components with nicely welded stainless exhausts etc
> installed them and fired up the motor. Worked ever since no faffing
> about.
>
> In any case a 914 would have probably been the way to go but Im a
> cheapskate.Or rather it would have cost me the price plus another
> 15% import tax raising the price to almost USD40k. What with labor
> and parts my current engine cost USD25k.
>
> You dont have to mess with the TCU and it retains the mechanical fuel
> pump (you need an electric pump as well). The mech pump will just
> about keep you flying at 22 MAP.
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 00:58 Brian Phillips wrote:
>
> Thanks for that Will. Clearly you know what you are doing as you
> have been running it since 2006. Can I ask, why do you need to
> change the gearbox ratio?
> Once you installed the turbo system, did you have to adjust or
> replace it to get it to absorb the power available at higher
> altitudes?
>
> Cheers,
> Brian Phillips.
>
> On 13/11/2022 12:33 am, William Daniell wrote:
>> I use up to 36 although lots of people in Colombia go up to
>> 40. So yes pretty much the same boost as a 914.
>>
>> If you use a stock 912 you have to add the turbo system and
>> airbox exhaust etc as you would expect. And also the oil system
>> to feed the turbo none of which is unexpected. A bigger main jet
>> is normal. However the gochta is that you need to change the
>> gearbox ratio and I put in a slipper clutch. All of this can
>> actually be done in a day (the exhaust and airbox are made
>> beforehand.)
>>
>> I have a manual waste gate in this engine but in the previous one
>> I had a simple wastegate controller like a car
>>
>> I flown with this engine since 2006 never had an issue.
>>
>> The turbo is from a Renault diesel van - made by mitisubishi
>>
>> Nitrile gaskets on the carbs are necessary otherwise they suck
>> air at altitude.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 23:16 Brian Phillips
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few
>> accumulated hours to build reliable predictability. At least
>> the big bore kit does not need any changes to crank, which is
>> essentially the same as the 914 with the same output. The
>> lighter than standard pistons may even reduce crank stresses.
>>
>> I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem
>> to remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery
>> issues. I believe the crank fillets are smaller on auto
>> engines compared to A/C engines, and with the 100% duty
>> factor can cause cracks, not sure if this applies to the suby
>> though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K miles, no
>> problems, great engine.
>>
>> William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember
>> you used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do
>> you actually add a bit more boost in?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Brian Phillips.
>>
>> On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:
>>> My experience conversing with Edges principal over the
>>> years, fwiw, is that he is chock full of confidence, many
>>> good ideas but peppered with some critical bad ones -which
>>> he will not acknowledge, and lets his customers prove him
>>> wrong. And some have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too
>>> few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
>>>
>>> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the
>>> engineering basics).
>>>
>>> Difficult to watch.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> PeteZ
>>>
>>>> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice
>>>> below, much appreciated, your background knowledge never
>>>> ceases to amaze me.
>>>>
>>>> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all
>>>> the retrofit work, along with the weight issues, its just
>>>> not worth it, and I would never finish it. I am still
>>>> interested in the 912Is, & was thinking about the Edge
>>>> 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below about some of the
>>>> US based big bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR
>>>> does seem a little high, combined with no detonation
>>>> detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge
>>>> performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they
>>>> supply a fuel pressure reg that increases the rail
>>>> pressure, so the pump/s are working harder, again an added
>>>> risk. Add to that limited operational history, makes the
>>>> 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000
>>>> compromises flying in close formation.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Brian Phillips.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>>>>>
>>>>> Weight is the enemy of an airplane.Especially the Europa,
>>>>> as it is a very compact aircraft.If I add 15 horsepower,
>>>>> but it moves the CG forward, requires a prop extension and
>>>>> a constant speed prop, the CG is going to be somewhere
>>>>> around the spinner.Now we move the battery back, run
>>>>> longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as
>>>>> possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance
>>>>> the nose. The weight just keeps going up. The Europa XS is
>>>>> 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa Classic even
>>>>> with the XS fuselage module and firewall forward.The 912
>>>>> 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will give 30
>>>>> ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at
>>>>> altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the
>>>>> 120-130 knot range.The 912S raised the cruise about 5
>>>>> knots more.The 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to
>>>>> at least 140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the
>>>>> 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.The mono is
>>>>> faster and lighter of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel
>>>>> injection.Customers moved the boost up to get more power
>>>>> but complained it burned more fuel.The only advantage was
>>>>> more power with less reliability.Fuel burn was basically
>>>>> the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.So, what did I
>>>>> gain?Slightly more power for climb but more heat to
>>>>> dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow climb was
>>>>> necessary to cool.BTU requirements are the same *for the
>>>>> same amount of power* at the same fuel air ratio and
>>>>> varies little with displacement.Aircraft engines run at
>>>>> constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as
>>>>> good as fuel injection except for altitude performance of
>>>>> a normally aspirated engine with no leaning.The Bing stops
>>>>> leaning after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated
>>>>> engine.So, an after market leaning system is necessary for
>>>>> the high altitude flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the
>>>>> 912/912S.The Rotax 914 is ideal for higher altitude
>>>>> operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a
>>>>> higher cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the
>>>>> Europa into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is
>>>>> now as good as the 912S but as we all know, there are
>>>>> techniques and inspections required to keep it running
>>>>> like new.
>>>>>
>>>>> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with
>>>>> only carb maintenance/oil changes.Overspeed of the engine
>>>>> is an issue many ignore.The valves can and do contact the
>>>>> piston if oversped.Prop strikes are ignored also by many
>>>>> STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean
>>>>> up the valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press
>>>>> on.Repeat at 1000 hours and the engine is good to 1500
>>>>> hours.The cleanup of the valves restores compression to
>>>>> like new or better than new and is really a surprise when
>>>>> a 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance
>>>>> engines, but I do with the so called "Big Bore" engines
>>>>> done here in the States some years ago.They do put out
>>>>> more power.But for how long?Over the years the stock Rotax
>>>>> 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and last.Most
>>>>> of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200
>>>>> hours.But we have many cowboys here in the States that
>>>>> just want more power but won't pay for it to get power
>>>>> _and reliability_.I was around for the first of these Big
>>>>> Bore mods.As Edge Performance has found out, the crank
>>>>> shaft, and many other formally robust Rotax parts are now
>>>>> under more stress and required "upgrade".This costs
>>>>> money.My hats off to them, as they have at least backed
>>>>> their engines.In their defense, some of our cowboys here
>>>>> in the States are running regular car fuel. This causes
>>>>> detonation for sure. I cant fix stupid!
>>>>>
>>>>> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will
>>>>> need more gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase
>>>>> inspection requirements, require greater cooling mass, and
>>>>> of course add cost.An airplane is 20,000 compromises
>>>>> flying in close formation.If you change one thing, you
>>>>> affect 20 others.Choose wisely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example:Charts are scare still for the 915.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20
>>>>> more than the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27
>>>>> L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>>>>>
>>>>> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed
>>>>> increase of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is
>>>>> better than most.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does
>>>>> not increase it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root
>>>>> for the trigear.The mono is much better at still basically
>>>>> a square root curve.More horsepower doesnt give me
>>>>> impressive efficiency or speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a
>>>>> constant speed prop without issue or added extensions, has
>>>>> a reasonable fuel burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in
>>>>> about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb.I can put out 70 to
>>>>> 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for
>>>>> a trigear) or max speed.Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore
>>>>> require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no
>>>>> advantage.The 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues
>>>>> with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally
>>>>> from cruise to max continuous from the surface to service
>>>>> ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which is our human
>>>>> physiological limit without cabin pressurization).We know
>>>>> how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can
>>>>> setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my
>>>>> laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a special
>>>>> dongle.I dont have Windows 11 yet, but it should work
>>>>> also.Carbs are easy to balance, and the installation
>>>>> manual is easy to follow.Always follow the engine
>>>>> installation manual in conjunction with the airframe
>>>>> firewall forward manual .
>>>>>
>>>>> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine
>>>>> mount and does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall
>>>>> forwards.Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the 915
>>>>> to a 912/914 airframe.The 915 is unmaintainable but for
>>>>> plugs and oil change without a buds system for the
>>>>> average owner to tell you what its doing but the
>>>>> troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce.Much study and
>>>>> patience is needed as the 915 goes through its teething
>>>>> issues.It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and will
>>>>> overheat easily during an extended taxi out.Automatic
>>>>> systems means you the pilot lose control.Many 912iS owners
>>>>> hate the power drop off and find economy only comes
>>>>> through lower power.They have found fuel burn is the same
>>>>> for the same speed after an engine change from the S to
>>>>> the iS.The 915 has a similar issue with the power
>>>>> requirements.It is not like hopping into your BMW tubo and
>>>>> everything works.It is still like the 1980s first gen
>>>>> fuel injection and turbo mods.Today it all works
>>>>> flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling
>>>>> requirements and components taking up more space under the
>>>>> hood.The 915 is not quite a plug and play engine
>>>>> electrically either.Look at Sling and their learning
>>>>> curve.The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.The two place not so
>>>>> much.Guys are looking hard at the difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP
>>>>> engines of light weight.It is fast and efficient for a
>>>>> 100HP 500 pound payload airplane.More weight makes the
>>>>> induced drag go up.The mono airframe was not designed to
>>>>> go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty
>>>>> weight of 900 pounds.If you go above 900 pounds empty
>>>>> weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and range is
>>>>> decreased.In the States, a 1000 mile per day range
>>>>> airplane is essential for getting around west of the
>>>>> Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to
>>>>> Florida for the winter, they need that range also.Frankly,
>>>>> a bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and
>>>>> a longer day.More horsepower is not as important as more
>>>>> torque.Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a
>>>>> trouble-free steed with stock components.Work on drag
>>>>> reduction and keeping the weight down.Not by slapping more
>>>>> horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very small
>>>>> airframe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bud Yerly
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Behalf
>>>>> Of Pete
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
>>>>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your
>>>>> Europa this week - 08/11/22
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks
>>>>> (cracking), and single point of failure (FI).
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> PeteZ
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51
>>>>> >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at
>>>>> if forward mass is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is
>>>>> said to finally be showing reliability but i would still
>>>>> choose Edge over Jabiru
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
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>> --
>> William Daniell
>> LONGPORT
>> +1 786 878 0246
>
> --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
Bud,
Thanks very much for your explanations below, a great read and very
illuminating. I didn't realize you had done work with Jason Parker.
Agree with everything you have said. The 914's running upward of 60" MP,
effectively doubling their mas flow, I can't see how they would not
ping, blow head gaskets and hole pistons, scary stuff.
On your first line, you mention 2.27, i'm assuming a simple typo and
meant 2.43. As the weight of the 914 is pretty much the same as the
912Is, and based on your numerous advice, a 914 is the go if I can put
up with those silly carby things. I spent many years playing with
Holleys, I thought I was over ever having to rebuild of fault find these
things : )
Cheers
Brian Phillips
On 14/11/2022 5:17 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>
> Let me try to shed some light here from experience.The cost to
> performance issue has been around since airplanes became accepted as a
> necessary part of higher speed transportation.
>
> First:Propellers fly on torque.The reason the 2.27 gearbox was better
> for the Columbians was the wide chord Warp Blade requires too much
> torque in comparison to the 914, hence the 912 (80HP) even with lower
> normalized boost hasnt sufficient torque to pull a wide chord Warp at
> full power.Had narrower chord blade been selected, fixed or constant
> speed prop, these issues change a lot.Too many for this level of
> discussion.At sea level manifold pressure with no losses the 80HP
> Rotax cannot turn a fixed 64 inch Wide Chord WD prop set for a 5000
> RMP WOT much beyond about 5200 RPM.Takeoff suffers.Therefore, WD and
> others have smaller diameter or narrow chord blades to match to the
> 80HP Rotax.So, if I turbo normalize the 80 HP engine to 30 or even 35
> inches, the engine/prop combination becomes a compromise of
> changes.Either the pitch has to be changed to decrease torque, the
> boost and therefore mixtures, jetting, fuel grade, and gearbox ratio
> has to be tweaked to make the engine runnable within the narrower
> torque range of engine with a now smaller or narrower prop.
>
> Second:Looking at the cruise speed difference doesnt tell the whole
> story but in fact it does.In high altitude operations, a turbo or
> supercharging is essential to regain sea level performance or perhaps
> a bit more. The back yard mechanics tweaked and tinkered to get a
> truck turbo and custom hand built components and jetting to get around
> the higher cost of the stock 914 due to rather onerous taxation in
> Columbia or as I did, just tinkering.Turbo normalization, prop and
> gearbox selection (but not optimization) led to a workable boost to
> allow reasonable performance for takeoff, climb and some additional
> cruise at altitude.However, without optimized waste gate control, you
> loose efficiency and power in cruise to gain takeoff.So, a turbo
> normalized 912 vs a 914 may only be 10 knots, but it is more than
> that.If you desire to optimize takeoff, climb, and cruise, then a more
> refined means of turbo waste gate control is necessary. That means a
> computer, or at least a circuit card with a application.Will did a
> great job of describing his build situation compromises in his last
> email.For him, it was his choice of compromises.He knew what had
> worked in Columbia to meet his basic requirements/compromises.
>
> Third:The Columbian conversion and the Italian chap (Vz Power) with
> the bolt on turbo or even the Big Bore conversions are all
> interesting experiments in getting around the Austrian overpriced
> 914.After all, the TCU control of a wastegate is not rocket science
> and a stock Garret turbo is only $500.But you have to look at the cost
> to long term maintenance and parts availability issues also.In my
> working with Jason Parker on a degraded Predator Drone engine, we put
> a stock Garett Turbo, a waste gate dashpot and an SDS fuel injection
> on a 2015 9XX Rotax stronger block (now stock on all Rotax
> engines).Jason removed the cylinders/heads, installed forged pistons,
> worked fuel mapping and boost control to get a very workable engine
> for about $15000 less than a 914 and a lot less than a 915.However,
> who got paid back for investing in all this work.Not I, as I didnt
> ask for any, but Jason lost 3 years of his life (but was hired to a
> lucrative position in defense) for all his work.About 25 engines were
> modified and very quickly sold.Half of them however were tinkered with
> by knowledgeable amateurs/experimenter and eventually blew up
> cylinders and pistons when tweaked to 60 inches of MP for superb
> takeoff and climb.When you modify an existing engine for more power,
> you always trade off something.
>
> My hat is off to those attempting to improve the internal combustion
> piston engine.Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce, and others developed
> wonderfully complex hydromechanical control systems to increase engine
> power and in some cases longevity and many other manufacturers
> capitalized on that from the 1930s to the 50s until the demise of
> the high powered piston aircraft engine.The internal combustion piston
> engine was left as a necessary evil mired in inefficiency and
> relegated to mass produced autos.But then, about 20 years ago
> computer/digital systems became cheap and available.Toyotas TRD
> division, Fords Racing, Mercedes and BMW as well as other motor
> divisions have developed wonderfully powerful and more efficient
> engines.Today modern electronic controls finally bring these dinosaur
> piston engines into greater efficiency.Supercharging and
> Turbo-super-charging can be electronically controlled with the fuel
> injection to prevent untrained operators from blowing them up and
> produced an automobile engine that is high powered and yet a reliable
> daily use vehicle.However, more power means the more your inspection
> and installation requirements go up, improved cooling, higher octane
> fuel types and improved electronic sensoring to keep it all running
> flawlessly.Luckily, we dont push our autos to the extreme we push our
> aircraft engines.(Although I did leave a Porsche 4 seater in the dirt
> with my 495 HP pickup truck from the stoplight a few months ago which
> was great fun for a couple of old guys, but he will never forget to be
> in sport mode again if he sees me..)
>
> In the many compromises we make in building an aircraft, never forget
> that the engine and prop are the powerplant.The engine supplies torque
> to the torque converter (propeller) and if you are smart, a variable
> pitch propeller.This prop choice allows one to take every bit of power
> the engine can produce for takeoff, and climb, then power down to 75%
> and run a few thousand hours with the prop pulling full power out of
> the available HP and Torque for cruise also.HP is the rate of work,
> torque is the twisting force and the twisting force/RPM is what is
> important for cruise.The 914 has reasonably optimized all these and
> with a constant speed (or variable pitch (with higher pilot work
> load)) prop is not only more efficient, but is mechanically more
> reliable than a fixed or mechanically controlled wastegate.Is it
> perfect, no, is it overpriced, yes, and am I frustrated with their
> turbo rebuild fiasco of a repair program, absolutely (a turbo only
> costs about $400 to rebuild and Rotax wants you to replace it for
> $8000, that is just plain greedy).Do I like turbo normalization (30
> inches), yes, do I like more boost absolutely, but at what cost and
> reliability?
>
> For me, Ill stick with my 914 because I can get parts, it is easy to
> troubleshoot from the TCU to the carbs and frankly just plugs onto the
> front of my Europa.Is it as nice an engine as the high tech 915, no
> way, but the extra stuff on the 915 doesnt really suit my aircraft or
> pocketbook.Performance wise, if I want to suck on oxygen and fly at
> 17,500 MSL to get 160 Kts. Vs 143 at 10,000 feet ish, it is worth it
> for me to stick to the 914 rather than upgrade and change everything
> on the FWF to match a different engine, then rebalance the aircraft.My
> drag curve goes much more vertical above 140 Knots and frankly, the
> only advantage of the 915 is rate of climb (thats HP or rate of work)
> but my top cruise increase is going to be less spectacular for all
> that work, extra weight and fuel burn.Ah compromises!
>
> Choose wisely to meet your requirements.Everyone has a different
> flying mission for their aircraft.The stock 912S (100HP) is a nice
> option for the Europa for a lower altitude performer.The UL engine is
> gaining popularity (Im still not completely sure why, as the
> performance increases with most planes isnt showing up in cruise
> performance, and prop performance to match at this time is being
> worked out).It is a well engineered product though and impressive.But
> is it as maintainable over time.Time will tell.Although Airmaster has
> attacked that faster spinning UL issue in an attempt to match the
> engine power/torque to a propeller, as of today, results are
> encouraging.The faster spinning UL has only about the same torque as
> the Rotax 9 series.The higher power meant more cooling issues, higher
> octane fuel (100LL is best) and it appears that the engine cant be
> lugged down to lower RPMs most likely due to detonation, hence the
> faster spinning engine (pump) must be electronically leaned for
> efficiency and hence cooling rears its ugly head.The UL 350 series
> engine develops max torque (330nm or 230Ft/lbs.) at about 23-2400 RPM
> which is 100 HP at sea level but at about 25L/Hr. or 6.6 GPH.Note the
> fall off of torque as RPM increases.The gearbox makes a difference in
> how hard you pull the RPM down vs using the fuel to prevent detonation
> by running a bit richer.That is not a great leap over the 912iS or
> even the 912S in cruise speed, at and the UL is at a higher fuel
> burn.At altitude though the HP drops significantly an any normally
> aspirated engine and on the 350iS and 912iS as the fuel burn goes down
> to about 17L/Hr. or 4.5 GPH.Not bad and comparable to the Rotax 912iS
> and 912S _with a HacMan leaning kit_. Since 2018, UL is continuing to
> solve all these issues as they attempt to overcome the inefficiencies
> of the dinosaur horizontally opposed air cooled engine issues in
> aircraft through fuel mapping, compression ratio, and timing
> controls.Good on them. Rotax was forced to catch up.And did they do it
> well.Well, that remains to be seen.
>
> The 914 like the 912/912S fits the cowl FWF package without major
> issue (you got to do the cooling work though). Extra power means extra
> heat to dissipate.The UL teething issues are mostly from poor cowl
> design or execution in my opinion which will take time and money to
> iron out (why cowl flaps are not used by manufacturers I cannot
> explain).Too bad as they really need an efficient cowl design for
> cruise to get rid of the heat in cruise and cowl flaps in climb to
> cool properly at low speed and high power.In my opinion, the airframe
> manufacturers seem to be indifferent to higher power engines cooling
> needs and settle for all but the most basic lower power engines
> requirements (i.e. it costs them money and time and besides, the
> actual money is in the stock airplane from a sales point of view).
>
> Research is 90% of your time in selecting an airframe and powerplant.I
> prefer to go fly in a similarly equipped aircraft I am considering to
> build, as I can copy or just assemble IAW the manual and achieve an
> acceptable aircraft that will meet or exceed my expectations without
> worry of reliability, longevity, or parts supply.As Ira Rampil told me
> Better is the enemy of Good.One has to raise the issues of cost,
> time, talent and services needed to go from good to better.
>
> Just my opinion and observations!
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
> *From:*owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
> *On Behalf Of *William Daniell
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 13, 2022 8:42 AM
> *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this
> week - 08/11/22
>
> Yup - the original 2.27:1 wouldnt make the revs with the airmaster
> even in Guaymaral at 8500. My previous plane a ICP Savannah with an
> Ivo had no problem with the 2.27 gearbox. I had the ivo with the
> narrow blades. The 914 gearbox is 2.43:1.
>
> Theres a lot of experience with this conversion in Colombia - they
> even claim they turbo-ed the 912 before rotax. It could be true -
> you never know with Colombia. But in any case I wasnt the pioneer.
> Its a well understood process. The chap who did it for me turned
> up all the required components with nicely welded stainless exhausts
> etc installed them and fired up the motor. Worked ever since no
> faffing about.
>
> In any case a 914 would have probably been the way to go but Im a
> cheapskate.Or rather it would have cost me the price plus another
> 15% import tax raising the price to almost USD40k. What with labor
> and parts my current engine cost USD25k.
>
> You dont have to mess with the TCU and it retains the mechanical fuel
> pump (you need an electric pump as well). The mech pump will just
> about keep you flying at 22 MAP.
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 00:58 Brian Phillips wrote:
>
> Thanks for that Will. Clearly you know what you are doing as you
> have been running it since 2006. Can I ask, why do you need to
> change the gearbox ratio?
> Once you installed the turbo system, did you have to adjust or
> replace it to get it to absorb the power available at higher
> altitudes?
>
> Cheers,
> Brian Phillips.
>
> On 13/11/2022 12:33 am, William Daniell wrote:
>
> I use up to 36 although lots of people in Colombia go up to
> 40. So yes pretty much the same boost as a 914.
>
> If you use a stock 912 you have to add the turbo system and
> airbox exhaust etc as you would expect. And also the oil
> system to feed the turbo none of which is unexpected. A
> bigger main jet is normal. However the gochta is that you
> need to change the gearbox ratio and I put in a slipper
> clutch. All of this can actually be done in a day (the
> exhaust and airbox are made beforehand.)
>
> I have a manual waste gate in this engine but in the previous
> one I had a simple wastegate controller like a car
>
> I flown with this engine since 2006 never had an issue.
>
> The turbo is from a Renault diesel van - made by mitisubishi
>
> Nitrile gaskets on the carbs are necessary otherwise they suck
> air at altitude.
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 23:16 Brian Phillips
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few
> accumulated hours to build reliable predictability. At
> least the big bore kit does not need any changes to crank,
> which is essentially the same as the 914 with the same
> output. The lighter than standard pistons may even reduce
> crank stresses.
>
> I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I
> seem to remember belt drive issues, recessed valves &
> delivery issues. I believe the crank fillets are smaller
> on auto engines compared to A/C engines, and with the 100%
> duty factor can cause cracks, not sure if this applies to
> the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K
> miles, no problems, great engine.
>
> William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember
> you used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or
> do you actually add a bit more boost in?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian Phillips.
>
> On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:
>
> My experience conversing with Edges principal over
> the years, fwiw, is that he is chock full of
> confidence, many good ideas but peppered with some
> critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and
> lets his customers prove him wrong. And some have
> (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too few accumulated
> hours to tease out all that pepper.
>
> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even
> lacks the engineering basics).
>
> Difficult to watch.
>
> Cheers,
>
> PeteZ
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips
> wrote:
>
> Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out
> advice below, much appreciated, your background
> knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
>
> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of
> doing all the retrofit work, along with the weight
> issues, its just not worth it, and I would never
> finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, &
> was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit.
> Your comments below about some of the US based big
> bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR
> does seem a little high, combined with no
> detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a
> bit risky. Edge performance don't play with the
> Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel pressure reg
> that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s
> are working harder, again an added risk. Add to
> that limited operational history, makes the 914
> look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000
> compromises flying in close formation.
>
> Cheers,
> Brian Phillips.
>
> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>
> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are
> learning fast:
>
> Weight is the enemy of an airplane. Especially
> the Europa, as it is a very compact aircraft.
> If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG
> forward, requires a prop extension and a
> constant speed prop, the CG is going to be
> somewhere around the spinner. Now we move the
> battery back, run longer heavier cables and as
> much more to the rear as possible such as
> autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the
> nose. The weight just keeps going up. The
> Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier than the
> equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS
> fuselage module and firewall forward. The 912
> 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will
> give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a
> leaning device at altitudes up to about 10,000
> feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot range.
> The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.
> The 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to
> at least 140-145 knot range at the same 25
> ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft
> of course. The mono is faster and lighter of
> course.
>
> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel
> injection. Customers moved the boost up to
> get more power but complained it burned more
> fuel. The only advantage was more power with
> less reliability. Fuel burn was basically the
> same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM. So, what did
> I gain? Slightly more power for climb but
> more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and
> shallow climb was necessary to cool. BTU
> requirements are the same *for the same amount
> of power* at the same fuel air ratio and
> varies little with displacement. Aircraft
> engines run at constant RPMs like a marine
> engines, so a carb is just as good as fuel
> injection except for altitude performance of a
> normally aspirated engine with no leaning.
> The Bing stops leaning after about 3500 feet
> in the normally aspirated engine. So, an
> after market leaning system is necessary for
> the high altitude flyers to improve fuel
> efficiency of the 912/912S. The Rotax 914 is
> ideal for higher altitude operations and
> frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher
> cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed
> the Europa into a great airplane. Reliability
> of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as
> we all know, there are techniques and
> inspections required to keep it running like new.
>
> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000
> hours with only carb maintenance/oil changes.
> Overspeed of the engine is an issue many
> ignore. The valves can and do contact the
> piston if oversped. Prop strikes are ignored
> also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>
> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours
> (gearbox, clean up the valves, inspect the
> rings/cylinders) and press on. Repeat at 1000
> hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.
> The cleanup of the valves restores compression
> to like new or better than new and is really a
> surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5
> blades of rotation.
>
> I have no experience with the latest Edge
> Performance engines, but I do with the so
> called "Big Bore" engines done here in the
> States some years ago. They do put out more
> power. But for how long? Over the years the
> stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new
> blocks) last and last. Most of the Big Bores
> were back in after as short as 200 hours. But
> we have many cowboys here in the States that
> just want more power but won't pay for it to
> get power _and reliability_. I was around for
> the first of these Big Bore mods. As Edge
> Performance has found out, the crank shaft,
> and many other formally robust Rotax parts are
> now under more stress and required "upgrade".
> This costs money. My hats off to them, as
> they have at least backed their engines. In
> their defense, some of our cowboys here in
> the States are running regular car fuel. This
> causes detonation for sure. I cant fix stupid!
>
> If you need more power keep in mind in general
> you will need more gas, gain weight, reduce
> reliability, increase inspection requirements,
> require greater cooling mass, and of course
> add cost. An airplane is 20,000 compromises
> flying in close formation. If you change one
> thing, you affect 20 others. Choose wisely.
>
> Example: Charts are scare still for the 915.
>
> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115
> HP (10-20 more than the 914 depending on MP
> and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>
> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a
> cruise speed increase of nearly 10-13 Kts
> above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>
> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per
> Gallon does not increase it decreases from
> about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>
> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a
> cube root for the trigear. The mono is much
> better at still basically a square root
> curve. More horsepower doesnt give me
> impressive efficiency or speed.
>
> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will
> cool, accepts a constant speed prop without
> issue or added extensions, has a reasonable
> fuel burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in
> about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb. I can
> put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for
> cruise (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or
> max speed. Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore
> require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no
> advantage. The 914 turbo takes care of most of
> the issues with density altitude, it allows
> the Bing to work ideally from cruise to max
> continuous from the surface to service ceiling
> (which is well above 25,000 which is our human
> physiological limit without cabin
> pressurization). We know how to maintain it,
> the TCU has been modified and I can setup,
> troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my
> laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a
> special dongle. I dont have Windows 11 yet,
> but it should work also. Carbs are easy to
> balance, and the installation manual is easy
> to follow. Always follow the engine
> installation manual in conjunction with the
> airframe firewall forward manual .
>
> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard
> Rotax engine mount and does not fit most
> experimental aircraft firewall forwards.
> Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the
> 915 to a 912/914 airframe. The 915 is
> unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change
> without a buds system for the average owner
> to tell you what its doing but the
> troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce. Much
> study and patience is needed as the 915 goes
> through its teething issues. It runs lean on
> the ground like the 912iS and will overheat
> easily during an extended taxi out. Automatic
> systems means you the pilot lose control.
> Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and
> find economy only comes through lower power.
> They have found fuel burn is the same for the
> same speed after an engine change from the S
> to the iS. The 915 has a similar issue with
> the power requirements. It is not like
> hopping into your BMW tubo and everything
> works. It is still like the 1980s first gen
> fuel injection and turbo mods. Today it all
> works flawlessly in our autos, but with larger
> cooling requirements and components taking up
> more space under the hood. The 915 is not
> quite a plug and play engine electrically
> either. Look at Sling and their learning
> curve. The 4 place needs 140-150 HP. The two
> place not so much. Guys are looking hard at
> the difference.
>
> In summary, the Europa was designed for about
> 100HP engines of light weight. It is fast and
> efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload
> airplane. More weight makes the induced drag
> go up. The mono airframe was not designed to
> go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet
> at an empty weight of 900 pounds. If you go
> above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets
> sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased.
> In the States, a 1000 mile per day range
> airplane is essential for getting around west
> of the Mississippi river. For my snow birds
> coming from Canada to Florida for the winter,
> they need that range also. Frankly, a bigger
> engine makes for shorter hops, less payload,
> and a longer day. More horsepower is not as
> important as more torque. Torque turns the
> prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>
> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be
> a trouble-free steed with stock components.
> Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight
> down. Not by slapping more horsepower,
> weight, complexity, and cost on a very small
> airframe.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
>
> On Behalf Of Pete
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do
> with your Europa this week - 08/11/22
>
> >
>
> .except for the concerns of Edge welded
> cranks (cracking), and single point of failure
> (FI).
>
> Cheers,
>
> PeteZ
>
> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth
> looking at if forward mass is a concern... the
> Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing
> reliability but i would still choose Edge over
> Jabiru
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Read this topic online here:
>
> >
>
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DmjfwqvqQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> - The Europa-List Email Forum -
>
> -->
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>
>
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
> -->
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>
>
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>
> -->
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H82eUxCpMT3FC%2B47WY13DthUPxRlKcO8Slvw4b4BIv4%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> - List Contribution Web Site -
>
> Thank you for your generous support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> -->
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmatronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BJyIGhvIq4pT7mzs62M9oV5AvbuxUVmXHUlH%2FDEvC%2Bg%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> --
>
> William Daniell
>
> LONGPORT
>
> +1 786 878 0246
>
> --
>
> William Daniell
>
> LONGPORT
>
> +1 786 878 0246
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "BobD" <rjdawson14(at)gmail.com> |
Can I respectfully remind everyone of the following from the posting Guidelines
:
"- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!"
When a response to a thread of more than 1 or 2 replies has them quoted in full,
for those of us who follow the daily digest on our phone, it makes for difficult
reading.
TIA
--------
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508751#508751
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Coming Soon! |
Dear Listers,
There's just a few more days left in this year's List Fund Raiser and that means
the List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I post
a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists.
Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their
appreciation for the Lists.
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists
is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account:
https://matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that
keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment
about how the Lists have helped you!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
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KzEgNzg2IDg3OCAwMjQ2DQoNCg=
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
That's so true; Joe Dougnuts is always ready to screw up a well balanced set of
carbi's... Lost count of how many times customers would come back with their
SU and Stromberg setups complaining the engine is running rough again... so first
thing i would always ask is "who messed with the mixtures?", Joe Doughnuts
was always reliably the last person to "tune up" the engine...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508830#508830
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
More flight time in the digital tube... door frames are finally done and installed;
starting to look like a finished aircraft... Doors should be a fairly fast
process now with all the root surfaces having been drafted... enough data to
run some aero analysis on a twin departed door scenario.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508831#508831
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | What's Your Contribution Used For? |
Dear Listers,
You might have wondered at some point, "What's my Contribution used for?" Here
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It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades enabling the highest
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List Browser, and the Web Forums. It pays for the over 25 years of on-line
archive data always available for instant search and access. And, it offsets
the many hours spent writing, developing, and maintaining the custom applications
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But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your
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Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk> |
After 25 + years of sterling service, during which period I increasingly resorted
to safety wiring the socket ends, they've now become too worn to be considered
serviceable. The struts themselves seem as strong as ever, so I'd be happy
simply to replace the plastic end sockets, however I'd be equally happy to replace
both complete strut assemblies.
Please would any of you kind persons direct me towards a quick stockist of these
items, or sell me a pair if you have those in new or nearly new condition.
Many thanks.
Jonathan G-EIKY
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508916#508916
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Door gas struts |
I did a quick search on Amazon for ball socket and found these
JINGLINGKJ 10MM Ball Socket M8 Male Screw Bolt M6 Female Thread Detachable Gas
Spring Metal Ball Joint Connector with Metal Wire End Fitting Bearing Joint 4pcs
(4PCS M6) https://amzn.eu/d/bAe2EZO
Not sure if they are suitable.
Alan
Sent from my iPad
> On 16 Nov 2022, at 20:27, JonathanMilbank wrote:
>
>
> After 25 + years of sterling service, during which period I increasingly resorted
to safety wiring the socket ends, they've now become too worn to be considered
serviceable. The struts themselves seem as strong as ever, so I'd be happy
simply to replace the plastic end sockets, however I'd be equally happy to
replace both complete strut assemblies.
>
> Please would any of you kind persons direct me towards a quick stockist of these
items, or sell me a pair if you have those in new or nearly new condition.
>
> Many thanks.
> Jonathan G-EIKY
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508916#508916
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com> |
Jonathan,
What you require is from SGS, who make the Europa struts, shown on
https://www.sgs-engineering.com/catalog/product/view/id/3220?utm_source=klav
iyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Abandoned%20Cart%3A%20Email%20%231&_kx=MaQ
YMu0z98IUOPPH4KahZ6OgfbuSzC-2D4Hp49B9B2k%3D.PzKG3Q
The struts are now provided with their own wire lock. Because the cost of 2
struts was less than the 50 plus VAT needed for free delivery, I ordered a
pair of long nosed pliers at the same time.
SGS also recharge gas struts, with a quick return service, but my old 1996
struts did not have the wire locks, so I decided to buy the new ones this
summer.
Best regards,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of JonathanMilbank
Sent: 16 November 2022 20:26
Subject: Europa-List: Door gas struts
-->
After 25 + years of sterling service, during which period I increasingly
resorted to safety wiring the socket ends, they've now become too worn to be
considered serviceable. The struts themselves seem as strong as ever, so I'd
be happy simply to replace the plastic end sockets, however I'd be equally
happy to replace both complete strut assemblies.
Please would any of you kind persons direct me towards a quick stockist of
these items, or sell me a pair if you have those in new or nearly new
condition.
Many thanks.
Jonathan G-EIKY
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508916#508916
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James <james(at)kingdom.ie> |
| Subject: | Re: Door gas struts |
Jonathan,
Europa purchased the original struts from Industrial Gas Supplies.
I replaced mine recently & got metal ends which I found much better.
Cheers
James
Get Outlook for Android
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of JonathanMilbank
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 8:26:23 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Door gas struts
>
After 25 + years of sterling service, during which period I increasingly re
sorted to safety wiring the socket ends, they've now become too worn to be
considered serviceable. The struts themselves seem as strong as ever, so I'
d be happy simply to replace the plastic end sockets, however I'd be equall
y happy to replace both complete strut assemblies.
Please would any of you kind persons direct me towards a quick stockist of
these items, or sell me a pair if you have those in new or nearly new condi
tion.
Many thanks.
Jonathan G-EIKY
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508916#508916
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Door gas struts |
| From: | "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk> |
This is what Matronics Europa email list is all about. Within a couple of hours
I received a clutch of useful answers and so have placed my order for 2 struts
before going to bed.
Many thanks to Alan, Mike and James.
Good night,
Jonathan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508920#508920
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Stick Switches Protector? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group
We have Ray Allen switches on the top of sticks that are vulnerable to getting
hurt when working on aeroplane.
Has anyone made up a lightweight, EZ on and off protector?
Thx.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508925#508925
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stick Switches Protector? |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
No, something better.
Decided to bypass this situation all together and produce a better tailored 3D
printed solution.
All three stick diameter sizes to suit.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508926#508926
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/477a43af_aed1_4830_ac4d_f63305bfeaad_101.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stick Switches Protector? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Area 51
Nice job.
We already have things fabricated and wired though:
http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/album258/album284/DSCN8418.JPG.html
http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/album258/album284/Stick_4.jpg.html
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508927#508927
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
This week instead of driving three hours through crap traffic, 181 got hauled out
and taken into the sky to do the journey in just 75 minutes; without traffic
or idiot drivers to deal with.
The journey back was exciting; turning east on departure to cross the bay at 132kt
gs, ASI read 80!!!
Then had "washing machine" to contend with, midday thermal activity, mechanical
turbulence off mountain ranges to the west, 2500' CTA ceiling, 1700' undulating
terrain floor, -500fpm sink, 30C air temperature.... It was 15 minutes of "not
fun"... then headed straight back to happy air at the coast once over the
ranges and clear of CTA... Pulled up weathX at the field; robot said 90deg xwind
gusting 15kt; interesting... got to the field and wind sock said 25kt sea breeze
straight down 05; brought 181 in and had a relaxing cup of tea... All the
practical training got used...
Today confirmed 50 years of engine tuning skills with the new FART box (Fuel Air
Ratio Tester).. What did it reveal??? It said that after 50 years of tuning
engines by ear and sense of vibration the skills are still functioning perfectly!
The FART confirmed idle mixtures were set spot on at 14.5 Stoichiometric...
FART also confirmed main jets were set spot on at 14.5 also... What else did
FART reveal?? FART revealed that adjusting the idle mixtures on the Bing carburettor
only has affect at 1500rpm and below... FART also revealed that altering
the main jet only has affect from 3600rpm upwards... What does this all mean??
It means basically all useful work the 912 does is on the main jet only!!
181 never flies at rpm below 3600; final is flown at 3600 with power pulled back
to idle just before round out... between 3600 and 1500 the intermediate needle
mixture is on the rich side of 13 down to 11; but this is all ground taxi
rpm... What else was confirmed by today's first ever FART experience?? It confirmed
fuel injection on the 912 is not required.
What else was learned today? That a good FART box can let anybody FART anywhere!!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508928#508928
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/4a2f9ed9_53e0_462a_a7d3_b8ad31e6cff8_104.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/72faffb0_5c7f_4e98_b8a2_85a37432f4b8_300.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Area 51
What is your FART smelling for? Carbon Monoxide? Or is it a Oxygen sensor?
For Rotax 914, especially if you have modified the intake 914 (ie intercooler)
they recommend that you don't run lean when you dial up War emergency power (115%).
They want you to do this by using a Carbon Monoxide tester and checking
each cylinder at a time through the EGT port. They want a minimum amount of Carbon
Monoxide. So idea is to find leanest cylinder and make sure you are making
enough Carbon monoxide. The older style 914 airboxes were more critical to the
adjustment of the higher than airbox pressure air used to enrichen by plumbing
to float bowls. You adjust so leanest cylinder is rich enough. Sorry, but
haven't messed with it on rotax yet. Triumph motorcycles adjust carbon monoxide
using that tester before they leave factory.
i installed a oxygen bung and sensor on my 914. I have a fuel air ratio display
to let me know how I am doing. I installed a mixture control to allow leaning.
I'm leaking carb float bowl pressure via needle valve to cross balance tube.
Will verify things with Carbon Monoxide tester and figure leanest cylinder under
various throttle settings. I'm slight rich on main jets, jet needle clips.
My philosophy is to throw a little more fuel on the fire to keep things cool
when generating BTUs. Now, the 94 tends to have a few cylinders run rich at taxi
speeds, I plan on running really lean. Above 50% power, will know leanest cylinder
at various power settings and lean accordingly. On 914 there is an enriching
solenoid that plumbs float bowls to airbox, or higher than airbox pressure.
I installed a switch that will activate the solenoid by pilot. I used a
schottky diode to isolate power from being backfed into the TCU. Idea is if anything
went wrong with lean plumbing, "rich switch" takes it out of circuit.
I too am a long time tuning guy, very satisfying to get things running the way
you want them.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508929#508929
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Ron,
The FART is smelling Oxygen.. whether its CO1 or CO2 is irrelevant to me; i just
want the FART to tell me how much Oxygen it is smelling; if the FART says 14.5
then i know its a happy FART. As long as my FART is happy i am happy also...
Whether the mixture is observed to be slightly rich during taxi, couldn't care
less; its 5-10 minutes of mild operational demand time.
You cannot leak boost pressure back through the float needles on a 914 snd expect
to keep moving; firstly that would intimate that your boost pressure is higher
than your fuel pressure; secondly you would run out of fuel on one or both
carburettors.
The float chambers need to remain equalised to plenum pressure; if they are leaking
air pressure the engine will run lean; hence all the Rotax instructions;
and yes you tune to the leanest cylinder always; using an infrared pistol tester
is good enough to indicate this.
Remember you have a lot less room to get it wrong with turbo charging; things go
crunch a lot quicker with less warning. If you want to run really lean above
50% power as you mention then firstly you are already going to be at 30% power;
so you will give it more throttle; then you will experience more heat, and
its all down hill from this point.
Its like performing an engine out glide approach; the airframe has its optimum
airspeed for endurance and distance... 14.5 Stoich is that optimum Oxygen content
for "all" petrol engines under "all" operating conditions, for maximum thermal
efficiency, end of story...
There are numerous ways to diagnose and monitor engine tune; for me its pretty
much field experience knowing the different harmonic tones generated by different
engine cylinder formations under full and partial load; they indicate air/mixture,
spark timing, or mechanical imbalances. The FART is purely a final quality
assurance confirmation for me befor signing off on maintenance service.
There are endless test points that can be used to monitor an engine; Oil Pressure
and Head Temp are the most vital, the rest are nice to haves but not essential
and are just early warning meters for the less experienced. If you want perfect
analogue economy as good as any fuel injection device then you want to know
your manifold pressure and exhaust oxygen content, and maybe add as a cross
reference exhaust temperature probe, however to be as accurate as the O2 sensor
the EGT probe really should be placed right at the valve throat; so for a
912/914 that's 4 probes.
For a 914 the best point to probe EGT is upstream at the impeller, this area between
the head and impeller is by default a fairly constant temp environment and
will rise and fall according to boost load and is a cross reference point for
oil and head temperature meters, the other point i would probe is inlet air
temp post intercooler, but personally i would still really on my O2 readings
as a final checkpoint.
All this above will give the operator the insight that the engine, mixture wise,
can or cannot run any better than is being indicated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508930#508930
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick Switches Protector? |
> On 18 November 2022 at 02:15 rparigoris wrote:
> I made a flip top protector for G-PTAG after Andy Draper had his clip board or
chart self operate the trim switch . Used to work very well . You would need
to refer to Martin Coffin who now has G-PTAG for photo if he still has it working
in place .
regards Bob Harrison.
>
>
> Hi Group
>
> We have Ray Allen switches on the top of sticks that are vulnerable to getting
hurt when working on aeroplane.
>
> Has anyone made up a lightweight, EZ on and off protector?
>
> Thx.
> Ron P.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508925#508925
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
I agree whole heartedly.
Those of us that have learned how to tune comes down to our power of observation,
but also inspections. We look at the engine smoothness (from idle to full),
plugs, exhaust tip color, temperatures, and find at the power range we run in
it doesn't matter whether it is carbureted or injected. Now fixed timing is
a bit of a problem in aircraft engines but if timing is optimized to the engine
power band, performance is similar in the long run between the two. As for
a FART being necessary, it is a nice tool, but not essential. I don't have one
as my wife doesn't like me to play "pull my finger" with the grand kids.
The biggest issue we have in Florida is these lean on the ground 912iS and 915
can't get to the end of the runway without overheating. If you want to run lean
at all times you need a much larger cooling system, fans and ducting. I have
found the latest 914 intake and carb jetting runs a bit richer than the original,
but the new one does run cooler and smoother. I'm OK with a slightly rich
mixture, as stated, a turbo boosted engine can go bad fast if there is an
air leak, or a leaning carb. In my plane I burn about a tenth of a gallon more
per hour on average. If I'm worried about a quart of fuel over a long leg,
I needed to plan better.
Guys think I am crazy for doing a 25 hour inspection on the engine. Carb leaks,
fuel staining, and top plug inspections can be done while the oil drains.
If the two EGTs, CHTs, oil temp and pressure are like it was in my logs, I leave
it alone. If there is a change, I look and test. My oil pressure gauge was
an issue this year. It was reading lower than originally installed:
During my hose change (8 years and the R7 or better are still good but the clamping
areas tended to look a bit too tight, so I yanked them all) I just did a
calibration on all my instruments. It took an hour. I have had to install a
15-ohm resistor on my new oil pressure sensor to adjust the offset and improve
the gauge reading. CHTs are pretty good still, measured with my Harbor Freight
temp sensor. I swapped out an EGT probe that was going bad, (plugs looked
great) took out my torch and compared the now mismatched set (one Westach and
the other off the shelf something I had) and two probes were equal enough (OK
at 900F and off <50F at 1400 F so I got lucky). On my website I have how I do
all that testing and calibrate the gauges. Yes, I still have round dials as
installed in 2005 in my panel as I used gauges from another Europa getting an
EIS upgrade. Right off the shelf I found all of them fairly accurate when I
tested them. My original oil sensor was replaced this year (10 years old), and
pressures back then were 10 PSI low across the board and I just memorized that.
Now it is 2022, and the oil sensor is being replaced and a new one installed
on the firewall (I hate adding weight, but it is a test) The new sender and
gauge now needs a 15 ohm resistor to read nearly spot on from 10 to 100 PSI.
Learn your engine. Educate yourself, ask questions and be a disciplined observer.
I never trust a gauge reading only (look for symptoms, test and verify).
Look at your engine during the oil changes or at a 25 hour. Those of you trying
to extend your oil change (some to 100 hours) look at your oil closely. If
it doesn't look like new when running unleaded gas, change it (even 50 hours
is a bit long for me). (100LL grays up fairly soon, so a 25 hour oil change
is sensible.) The smallest impurities are not always picked up by the oil filter.
The solution is not a finer oil filter, as that affects pressure and bearing
bathing, the solution is don't be cheap, change the oil. That rids the blow
by debris, turbo carbon and water contamination from the engine the fastest.
Spend the $60 and inspect the engine for potential issues and catch and fix
issues early.
Now back to the shop to replumb my fuel system and a couple of upgrades to old
N12AY.
Just my thoughts,
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Area-51
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2022 12:31 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22
Hi Ron,
The FART is smelling Oxygen.. whether its CO1 or CO2 is irrelevant to me; i just
want the FART to tell me how much Oxygen it is smelling; if the FART says 14.5
then i know its a happy FART. As long as my FART is happy i am happy also...
Whether the mixture is observed to be slightly rich during taxi, couldn't care
less; its 5-10 minutes of mild operational demand time.
You cannot leak boost pressure back through the float needles on a 914 snd expect
to keep moving; firstly that would intimate that your boost pressure is higher
than your fuel pressure; secondly you would run out of fuel on one or both
carburettors.
The float chambers need to remain equalised to plenum pressure; if they are leaking
air pressure the engine will run lean; hence all the Rotax instructions;
and yes you tune to the leanest cylinder always; using an infrared pistol tester
is good enough to indicate this.
Remember you have a lot less room to get it wrong with turbo charging; things go
crunch a lot quicker with less warning. If you want to run really lean above
50% power as you mention then firstly you are already going to be at 30% power;
so you will give it more throttle; then you will experience more heat, and
its all down hill from this point.
Its like performing an engine out glide approach; the airframe has its optimum
airspeed for endurance and distance... 14.5 Stoich is that optimum Oxygen content
for "all" petrol engines under "all" operating conditions, for maximum thermal
efficiency, end of story...
There are numerous ways to diagnose and monitor engine tune; for me its pretty
much field experience knowing the different harmonic tones generated by different
engine cylinder formations under full and partial load; they indicate air/mixture,
spark timing, or mechanical imbalances. The FART is purely a final quality
assurance confirmation for me befor signing off on maintenance service.
There are endless test points that can be used to monitor an engine; Oil Pressure
and Head Temp are the most vital, the rest are nice to haves but not essential
and are just early warning meters for the less experienced. If you want perfect
analogue economy as good as any fuel injection device then you want to know
your manifold pressure and exhaust oxygen content, and maybe add as a cross
reference exhaust temperature probe, however to be as accurate as the O2 sensor
the EGT probe really should be placed right at the valve throat; so for a
912/914 that's 4 probes.
For a 914 the best point to probe EGT is upstream at the impeller, this area between
the head and impeller is by default a fairly constant temp environment and
will rise and fall according to boost load and is a cross reference point for
oil and head temperature meters, the other point i would probe is inlet air
temp post intercooler, but personally i would still really on my O2 readings
as a final checkpoint.
All this above will give the operator the insight that the engine, mixture wise,
can or cannot run any better than is being indicated.
Read this topic online here:
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508930%23508930&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8a4248e8004ed2862c08dac926b3d0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638043465325644384%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KGenxgpZ0VbnxNCNiOIvnccWf7sGOqAit9oo65nn3z0%3D&reserved=0
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
A very productive week now... finished off the doors on the 3D model; perfect glass
and perfect panel gaps in the perfect computer world.. gave the interior
some more detail.
Some cleanup tasks, a few amendments and it will be time give some time elsewhere
down at the tail.
Very happy with the results; time to put it in primer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508944#508944
Attachments:
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http://forums.matronics.com//files/1c7d46ab_69d2_48f0_b7b4_ecfdede1a09c_125.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/f72d57cf_323c_4dac_8bec_aa6e5458a33c_213.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Trutrak AP with Garmin GPS 18x 5Hz |
Ok Ive had a. Ha ce to fly mine with the GPS feed off.
As Duncan says below the display drops to show -||- but maintains the track last
set or you are holding when you switch it on.
The are no heading digits on the display so you will need use your compass/DI to
show that.
If you press the left or right buttons then you can alter the track the AP is
following either left or right and a number appears which if you press the button
you can increase or decrease after the AP locks on the numbers disappear and
you have the -||- on the display.
Useful if you have a GPS failure but wouldnt want that as normal mode of operation
so my suggestion is you need a GPS feed with the right NEMA message set to
get the most out of the AP and the ability for it to follow a track you have
programmed in is a bonus.
One word of caution, I have come across some GPS that dont put out any messages,
even the position message for driving a Transponder ADS-B output, unless there
is a track in the GPS. That was how some of the older version worked, GARMIN
430 and possible the early AVMAP were guilty of that.
Hope that helps.
Alan
Sent from my iPad
> On 10 Nov 2022, at 10:52, D McFadyean wrote:
>
>
> Digitrak only needs basic positional information from the GPS on a regular basis.
It will use this information to fly the track that has been set on the Digitrak.
> If a route is programmed in to the GPS, it will fly that too (with different
commands being set at the Digitrak control head to enable this), so long as the
GPS is also putting out the crosstrack error signal; not all of them do.
>
> Duncan McF.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
The mods keep materialising... Sunday afternoon was spent designing a new firewall
solution for 181.
After the crap ordeal changing out fuel hoses recently and the lack of easy access
a better option was created today.
Each piece is held in place by just two fixings each and tongue and groove interlocking.
The lower section is removable by undoing two setscrews mounted on the
inside upright face of the footwell and then sliding it downward. The upper
section is fixed by two set screws on the same inside footwell wall and remains
in situ and does not require removal until the frame is removed. There is provided
a large inspection hatch that is fixed by tongue and groove and two set
screws on the top lip of the upper section; removal is from the top once the
airbox is out of the way.
Looking forward to fitting this mod when ever the engine is next being removed
for any reason.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508952#508952
Attachments:
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http://forums.matronics.com//files/0349a675_daa7_4adb_ab1b_6134e309872f_162.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trutrak AP with Garmin GPS 18x 5Hz |
Alan
Thank you very much for this update. Very helpful indeed.
I have been offered a Garmin Aera 500 which would be a much neater and smaller
GPS input source than my Skymap IIIC. Would you happen to know if the Aera would
have the necessary output for the Trutrak?
Hope your strip has not become too waterlogged in all this rain. Would love to
fly up and see your AP in action. Sandown is currently closed as the grass is
so boggy but us residents can operate off the astro. Quite challenging to remain
within its 430m with just 80hp up front!
Best regards
David
> On 19 Nov 2022, at 16:26, Alan Burrill wrote:
>
>
> Ok Ive had a. Ha ce to fly mine with the GPS feed off.
>
> As Duncan says below the display drops to show -||- but maintains the track last
set or you are holding when you switch it on.
>
> The are no heading digits on the display so you will need use your compass/DI
to show that.
>
> If you press the left or right buttons then you can alter the track the AP is
following either left or right and a number appears which if you press the button
you can increase or decrease after the AP locks on the numbers disappear
and you have the -||- on the display.
>
> Useful if you have a GPS failure but wouldnt want that as normal mode of operation
so my suggestion is you need a GPS feed with the right NEMA message set
to get the most out of the AP and the ability for it to follow a track you have
programmed in is a bonus.
>
> One word of caution, I have come across some GPS that dont put out any messages,
even the position message for driving a Transponder ADS-B output, unless there
is a track in the GPS. That was how some of the older version worked, GARMIN
430 and possible the early AVMAP were guilty of that.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 10 Nov 2022, at 10:52, D McFadyean wrote:
>>
>>
>> Digitrak only needs basic positional information from the GPS on a regular basis.
It will use this information to fly the track that has been set on the Digitrak.
>> If a route is programmed in to the GPS, it will fly that too (with different
commands being set at the Digitrak control head to enable this), so long as the
GPS is also putting out the crosstrack error signal; not all of them do.
>>
>> Duncan McF.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trutrak AP with Garmin GPS 18x 5Hz |
On 2022-11-20, at 16:22, Dpc wrote:
> Thank you very much for this update. Very helpful indeed.
>
> I have been offered a Garmin Aera 500 which would be a much neater and
smaller GPS input source than my Skymap IIIC. Would you happen to know
if the Aera would have the necessary output for the Trutrak?
David - it=99s my understanding that the Aera 500 would drive the
TruTrak OK. Way back in 2009-11-05 I logged in my build journal:
=9CNote that the just-announced Garmin aera 500 touchscreen GPS
appears to offer more screen area in a smaller box than the 296, and to
have superseded it (the 296 has disappeared from the Garmin website),
and Transair already have it listed at a lower price than the 296 - ho
hum.=9D
So it looks as though I had at that time checked the capability of the
Aera 500 to drive my TruTrak wing leveller and found it to be
compatible. I was just disappointed that it was =9Cnicer=9D,
smaller and cheaper than the GPSmap 296 to which I had already
committed!
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trutrak AP with Garmin GPS 18x 5Hz |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trutrak AP with Garmin GPS 18x 5Hz |
On 2022-11-20, at 17:20, Dpc wrote:
> Is your 296 still working well with the Trutrak?
David - I think I may have mentioned in a previous posting on this topic that I
am not yet actually flying in my Europa!
However, I have done some simple testing on the ground and it appears to be functioning
as desired.
My website <http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk> is down now for some reason (I have raised a support ticket!) but when it comes back you should be able to find the relevant part of the journal on the entry for 22 Feb 2021.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | arwel pritchard <arwel.pritchard(at)powercom.ltd.uk> |
| Subject: | Cockpit ventilation |
Good evening all,
I was thinking about cockpit ventilation the other day and thought that
I can let plenty of fresh air into the cabin from the two side vents,
but for proper ventilation, all that air needs to leave the cabin as well.
Then, I thought about putting some kind of ventilation grille in the
rear access panel. This should allow some air to flow through the
grille, then on through the fuselage and exit at the rear.
Not sure if this would give adequate venting, or work at all, any
thoughts please?
Thanks
Arwel
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Trutrak AP with Garmin GPS 18x 5Hz |
| From: | David Cripps <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> |
Ah, yes Roland. You did mention this but good to see that you have it working in
'ground mode'. Look forward to seeing more on your website once it is back up
and running.
On 20/11/2022, 17:45, "Rowland Carson" wrote:
On 2022-11-20, at 17:20, Dpc wrote:
> Is your 296 still working well with the Trutrak?
David - I think I may have mentioned in a previous posting on this topic that
I am not yet actually flying in my Europa!
However, I have done some simple testing on the ground and it appears to be
functioning as desired.
My website <http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk> is down now for some reason (I have raised a support ticket!) but when it comes back you should be able to find the relevant part of the journal on the entry for 22 Feb 2021.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
| From: | David Cripps <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> |
Arwel
I have a small sliding hatch in the D-panel in the baggage bay bulkhead that does
exactly what you're suggesting. When this hatch is open, there is significantly
more draught flowing through the cockpit from the side vents. However, even
with it closed there seems to be enough leakage points in the cockpit (gaps
in door seals, throttle and finger brake lever slots, access hatch in tunnel
between seats to fuel selector valve etc) for there still to be plenty of ways
for air to flow out, at least for the flow you'd want at this time of year.
I find the bigger issue is that the side vents do not direct the incoming air where
you really want it, and mainly freeze your knees! There has been mention
by others of some very nicely designed rotating/flap type vents which do direct
air well, but probably need to be installed instead of the standard side vents
at time of building (or at least it looks like it would be quite a rework job
to fit them as replacements for the current side vents).
This winter I am going to experiment with installing some kind of simple moulded
ducting on the inside of the fuselage (maybe even just velcroed onto the carpet
lining for ultimate modifiability) placed over the existing vents. This would
try to 'scoop up' the air from the vents and angle it upwards/inwards. Not
sure if anyone else has tried this but would be interested to hear if they have.
David
On 20/11/2022, 18:11, "arwel pritchard" wrote:
Good evening all,
I was thinking about cockpit ventilation the other day and thought that
I can let plenty of fresh air into the cabin from the two side vents,
but for proper ventilation, all that air needs to leave the cabin as well.
Then, I thought about putting some kind of ventilation grille in the
rear access panel. This should allow some air to flow through the
grille, then on through the fuselage and exit at the rear.
Not sure if this would give adequate venting, or work at all, any
thoughts please?
Thanks
Arwel
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "dmac7" <dmac7(at)outlook.com> |
Interesting posts Mr Area-51 confirmation is nice. I wonder if changing the needle
positions affect cruise mixture much or only mid range? And thats a sweet
firewall...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508965#508965
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks; still need to run it through relevant FAR's before production.
Re' adjusting Bing needle position; not going to even bother... If it aint broken,
why fix it? But if you want to experiment and know how to proficiently monitor
the affects, give it a go!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508967#508967
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
Arwel,
I have eyeball vents attached to the side NACA vent, which allows direction of
airflow (including away from the knees). These were made from a ping pong ball
with a bit of tube stuck in it, retained by a split spherical molding that is
in turn clamped (with an o-ring) to a tubular posterior extension of the duct.
It's designed to be frangible/recoverable in the event of knee impact, or worse.
Weight was <2oz per side.
Duncan Mcf
> On 20 November 2022 at 18:27 David Cripps wrote:
>
>
>
> Arwel
>
> I have a small sliding hatch in the D-panel in the baggage bay bulkhead that
does exactly what you're suggesting. When this hatch is open, there is significantly
more draught flowing through the cockpit from the side vents. However,
even with it closed there seems to be enough leakage points in the cockpit (gaps
in door seals, throttle and finger brake lever slots, access hatch in tunnel
between seats to fuel selector valve etc) for there still to be plenty of ways
for air to flow out, at least for the flow you'd want at this time of year.
>
> I find the bigger issue is that the side vents do not direct the incoming air
where you really want it, and mainly freeze your knees! There has been mention
by others of some very nicely designed rotating/flap type vents which do direct
air well, but probably need to be installed instead of the standard side vents
at time of building (or at least it looks like it would be quite a rework
job to fit them as replacements for the current side vents).
>
> This winter I am going to experiment with installing some kind of simple moulded
ducting on the inside of the fuselage (maybe even just velcroed onto the carpet
lining for ultimate modifiability) placed over the existing vents. This
would try to 'scoop up' the air from the vents and angle it upwards/inwards. Not
sure if anyone else has tried this but would be interested to hear if they
have.
>
> David
>
> On 20/11/2022, 18:11, "arwel pritchard" wrote:
>
>
> Good evening all,
>
> I was thinking about cockpit ventilation the other day and thought that
> I can let plenty of fresh air into the cabin from the two side vents,
> but for proper ventilation, all that air needs to leave the cabin as well.
>
> Then, I thought about putting some kind of ventilation grille in the
> rear access panel. This should allow some air to flow through the
> grille, then on through the fuselage and exit at the rear.
>
> Not sure if this would give adequate venting, or work at all, any
> thoughts please?
>
> Thanks
>
> Arwel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
| From: | "clivesutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com> |
Hi Arwel, your assumptions on the need for a generous cockpit exit air vent are
are bang on correct. I did just this on my aircraft and put a 120mm dia 12v
computer fan behind the panel as well to force airflow when the aircraft is stationary
with the doors closed. My inspector signed this off as a Trivial MOD
that was then declared to the LAA (a pic attached). I made sure a CO monitor
was in the cockpit at the same time.
On incomer/directional air vents, are you aware of MOD12871? Mike Wilde fitted
rotary vents of the type that are now made by Trevor Poulter into his sidewall
(at build, NOT replacing the factory NACA vents) which you can perhaps do as
a repeat MOD - suggest you check with Andy Draper first [you are in the UK?]
Hope it helps
Clive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508969#508969
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/resized_d_panel_vent_image_225.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
On 2022-11-20, at 18:27, David Cripps wrote:
> This winter I am going to experiment with installing some kind of
simple moulded ducting on the inside of the fuselage (maybe even just
velcroed onto the carpet lining for ultimate modifiability) placed over
the existing vents. This would try to 'scoop up' the air from the vents
and angle it upwards/inwards. Not sure if anyone else has tried this but
would be interested to hear if they have.
David - I have added eyeball vents to my NACA ducts as you can see in
the following picture pages from my build journal:
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/eyeball_mount_e.php
<http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/eyeball_mount_e.php>
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/stbd_ventilation_a.php
<http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/stbd_ventilation_a.ph
p>
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_a.php
<http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_a.ph
p>
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/stbd_ventilation_b.php
<http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/stbd_ventilation_b.ph
p>
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_b.php
<http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_b.ph
p>
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_c.php
<http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/port_ventilation_c.ph
p>
As I am not yet flying, I don=99t know how effective this very
non-laminar flow arrangement will be, but I hope at least the eyeballs
will allow whatever airflow comes through to be directed to somewhere
useful.
I seem to recall that there has been some previous discussion here about
finding a low-pressure area for the cabin air exhaust vent, but can=99
t recall details now.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
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The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
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in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
Duncan
Id be very interested in any photos you can post of your ping pong ball arrangement!
Thanks
David
> On 21 Nov 2022, at 09:11, D McFadyean wrote:
>
>
> Arwel,
> I have eyeball vents attached to the side NACA vent, which allows direction of
airflow (including away from the knees). These were made from a ping pong ball
with a bit of tube stuck in it, retained by a split spherical molding that
is in turn clamped (with an o-ring) to a tubular posterior extension of the duct.
It's designed to be frangible/recoverable in the event of knee impact, or
worse. Weight was <2oz per side.
>
> Duncan Mcf
>> On 20 November 2022 at 18:27 David Cripps wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Arwel
>>
>> I have a small sliding hatch in the D-panel in the baggage bay bulkhead that
does exactly what you're suggesting. When this hatch is open, there is significantly
more draught flowing through the cockpit from the side vents. However,
even with it closed there seems to be enough leakage points in the cockpit (gaps
in door seals, throttle and finger brake lever slots, access hatch in tunnel
between seats to fuel selector valve etc) for there still to be plenty of ways
for air to flow out, at least for the flow you'd want at this time of year.
>>
>> I find the bigger issue is that the side vents do not direct the incoming air
where you really want it, and mainly freeze your knees! There has been mention
by others of some very nicely designed rotating/flap type vents which do direct
air well, but probably need to be installed instead of the standard side
vents at time of building (or at least it looks like it would be quite a rework
job to fit them as replacements for the current side vents).
>>
>> This winter I am going to experiment with installing some kind of simple moulded
ducting on the inside of the fuselage (maybe even just velcroed onto the
carpet lining for ultimate modifiability) placed over the existing vents. This
would try to 'scoop up' the air from the vents and angle it upwards/inwards.
Not sure if anyone else has tried this but would be interested to hear if they
have.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On 20/11/2022, 18:11, "arwel pritchard" wrote:
>>
>>
>> Good evening all,
>>
>> I was thinking about cockpit ventilation the other day and thought that
>> I can let plenty of fresh air into the cabin from the two side vents,
>> but for proper ventilation, all that air needs to leave the cabin as well.
>>
>> Then, I thought about putting some kind of ventilation grille in the
>> rear access panel. This should allow some air to flow through the
>> grille, then on through the fuselage and exit at the rear.
>>
>> Not sure if this would give adequate venting, or work at all, any
>> thoughts please?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Arwel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
On 2022-11-21, at 12:05, Dpc wrote:
> Looks like it should work and at least direct the airflow away from
the knees! Have you removed the black finger screw that opens and shuts
the NACA duct and have it permanently open?
>
> Where did you get the eyeball vent from
David - yes, I removed the finger-screw on the 2nd one after the first
self-destructed. I then filled the resulting holes in the mouldings -
see:
http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/fill_naca_duct.php
<http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/fill_naca_duct.php>
As to the source of the eyeball vents, I was given a pair of eyeball
vents from another builder Peter Davis way back in 2008. I am not sure
if those are the ones I actually installed, as I also received a pair in
black plastic with a different mechanism from a kind PFA/LAA friend at
some time in the distant past. I think I still have the black ones
knocking about somewhere - would you care to have them if I can find
them?
Alternatively, look for a dashboard from a MkI Cortina!
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Away up high in the friendly sky!!
Some finalisation on the engine cowling today... adjusting the radiator ports and
shifting the side louvres into place to match actuals.
Also set the flap bar and bumped the flap hinges into final position. Discovered
in the process the John had moved the flap bar hinges slightly aft from factory.
On paper his mod provides 5deg additional flap angle...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508975#508975
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1c54d81e_3d7e_4563_8ff8_5e086c3a4830_685.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
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HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cockpit ventilation |
| From: | "Paul M 383" <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> |
Aveo make some lovely brushed ali eyeball vents (https://www.aveoengineering.com/lsa-experimental-ul-kits-and-gliders/ > Misc and Accessories)
which I used in the standard vent extension - I believe the Club has the molds
for these (I made mine while demonstrating composite techniques at the LAA Rally
- the reward was I got to keep the parts I made )
I removed the screw mechanism and superfluous plate, much like Rowland did - they
can be closed to block all air entering. This photo does not show the stbd
one well, but you might get the idea.
HTH,
Paul
G-PLPM
Mono XS 912S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508977#508977
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/90531e96_a645_474a_b6b1_455f4643dce1_900.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Passing rearwards today through the wing sections, adding mass balance to the ailerons
and bellcrank window, adding in the flap hinge assemblies and finalising
the speed kit... gaping and recessing control surfaces; some more work on the
engine cowl adding fixing points.
Next will be wing fuselage interface, then its home straight down through the empennage;
will be interesting to see what results the digital wind tunnel throws
back.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508988#508988
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/3a90aa9c_1e3b_4b57_95ea_29fd37de5ec7_207.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/a59dac39_e92d_459a_8321_a424792a9966_204.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/014a92d8_d499_4947_99a1_6275fc8df193_174.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Zut <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 18/11/22 |
That's an incredible effort! Looks fantastic!
I'm also eager to see what the fluid dynamics look like!
Thx for doing this!
Cheers,
PeteZ
On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 12:19 PM Area-51
wrote:
> goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>
>
> Passing rearwards today through the wing sections, adding mass balance to
> the ailerons and bellcrank window, adding in the flap hinge assemblies and
> finalising the speed kit... gaping and recessing control surfaces; some
> more work on the engine cowl adding fixing points.
>
> Next will be wing fuselage interface, then its home straight down through
> the empennage; will be interesting to see what results the digital wind
> tunnel throws back.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508988#508988
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/3a90aa9c_1e3b_4b57_95ea_29fd37de5ec7_207.jpeg
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/a59dac39_e92d_459a_8321_a424792a9966_204.jpeg
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/014a92d8_d499_4947_99a1_6275fc8df193_174.jpeg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Nylon outrigger legs. |
Trying to purchase some spare nylon outrigger rods. Does anyone have any the
y are not using or know the type of nylon used? I remember Nylon 66 but unsu
re.
Cheers, Tim
Sent from my iPad
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand.
ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
021 0640221
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution |
Today!
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message and link acknowledging
everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists.
Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)! As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least as valuable a building / entertainment tool as your typical magazine
subscription!
Assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the
Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your
Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
https://matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
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I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
how the Lists have helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Watts <flydgw(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Nylon outrigger legs. |
Tim,
They are Nylon 66
Dave Watts
G-BXDY
On Tue, 22 Nov 2022 at 6:10 pm, timward wrote:
> Trying to purchase some spare nylon outrigger rods. Does anyone have any
> they are not using or know the type of nylon used? I remember Nylon 66 but
> unsure.
> Cheers, Tim
>
> Sent from my iPad
> Tim Ward
> 12 Waiwetu Street,
>
>
> Fendalton,
>
>
> Christchurch, 8052
>
> New Zealand.
>
> ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
> 021 0640221
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Nylon outrigger legs. |
Hello Tim
Yes it is Nylon 66, I have just replaced mine but don=99t have any
spare material but if you have difficulty finding it in NZ I got mine
from a company here in UK, Abbey Distribution Ltd, Plastock.
Cheers
Mike
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of timward
Sent: 22 November 2022 18:07
Subject: Europa-List: Nylon outrigger legs.
Trying to purchase some spare nylon outrigger rods. Does anyone have any
they are not using or know the type of nylon used? I remember Nylon 66
but unsure.
Cheers, Tim
Sent from my iPad
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand.
ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
021 0640221
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | N460HJ flies again |
after major (tank) surgery N470HJ flew again for the first time since mid
august.
full check of vitals tomorrow (filters tank etc)
wonderful to be back in the air
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: N460HJ flies again |
Great to hear!
Congrats and blue skies!
PeteZ
> On Nov 23, 2022, at 9:20 PM, William Daniell wrote:
>
>
> after major (tank) surgery N470HJ flew again for the first time since mid august.
>
> full check of vitals tomorrow (filters tank etc)
>
> wonderful to be back in the air
>
> William Daniell
> +1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: N460HJ flies again |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Awesomtastic!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509089#509089
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "hanaperrod" <gilrod(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
Hi everyone.
I'm having problems purchasing Araldite 420 in a small quantity here in the Uk
I wonder if anyone has a small amount I could purchase. ( 100g )or knows
where I can purchase it.
Regards Rod.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509092#509092
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James <james(at)kingdom.ie> |
Have you tried CPC Farnell or RS Rod?
Regards
James
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________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of hanaperrod
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2022 10:46:41 AM
Subject: Europa-List: ADHESIVE
Hi everyone.
I'm having problems purchasing Araldite 420 in a small quantity here in the
Uk
I wonder if anyone has a small amount I could purchase. ( 100g )or knows
where I can purchase it.
Regards Rod.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509092#509092
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | The Obsidian File |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Black Op's on Baker Build 181 have not been secretly happening for the past 18
months. Rumours, just rumours... nothing to see here... just some routine wing
flange dressing on a computer that does not exist...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509094#509094
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/6cf429c5_8da6_41e9_977f_fe61310e871c_152.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/a2ec4317_2d9d_4b6c_bc70_f3973c06122b_787.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/550f4050_f17e_4c13_ac99_9482ac460e02_145.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/38c89067_9880_4917_b15c_e949b97b727f_157.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/0fb2ad04_e051_49cd_b36a_0c8d9a45d68a_109.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/4d18217b_85a7_49d0_a92d_9b7f4995c0b7_140.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kelvin Weston" <kelv(at)kdweston.biz> |
Hi Rod
Silmid UK sell a 200ml dual tube and a 1.4Kg kit.
--------
Regards
Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv(at)kdweston.biz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509095#509095
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "hanaperrod" <gilrod(at)tiscali.co.uk> |
Thanks for your reply James & Kelv,
Farnell and Rs don't have it. I've tried Silmid but they only sell to companies
with a Vat no. I do now have an offer to buy it from a member that has a company.
So all good.
Rod.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509097#509097
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File |
| From: | "dmac7" <dmac7(at)outlook.com> |
Ahh the fabulous Baker build I have heard of her! Nice details, Paul Lipps would
have approved of your vent scoops, he once wrote of scoops vs NASA scoops in
Kite planes magazine. Clean looking wing junction, overall nice images thx.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509098#509098
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... |
There is an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages.
Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through
the Matronics Fund Raiser web site, their email address is automatically added
to this year's Contributor List and they instantly cease to receive further Fund
Raiser messages for the rest of the month! Its just that simple! :-)
I really do appreciate each and every one of your individual Contributions to support
the Lists. It is your support that enables me to upgrade the hardware
and software that are required to run a List Site such as this one. It also goes
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allows me to control and monitor every aspect of the system for the utmost in
reliably and performance. Your personal Contribution matters because, when combined
with other Listers such as yourself, it pays the bills to keep this site
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If you appreciate the ad-free, grass-roots, down-home feel of the Matronics Email
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https://matronics.com/contribution
or, you can send a personal check to the following address:
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581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note 1: There are certain circumstances where you might still see a Contribution
related message. For example, if someone replies to one of the messages,
when using the List Browse feature, or when accessing List message via the Forum.
The system keys on the given email address and since most of these are anonymous
public access methods, there is no simple way to filter them. ]
[ Note 2: For part of the 2022 Fund Raiser year, the Squelch Function was broken.
It's fixed now. I'm sorry about that... ]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution |
Today!
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way
of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists. Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List
of Contributors (LOC)! As a number of members have pointed out over the years,
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Assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the
Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your
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or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
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581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
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helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Internal door handle DL03 |
| From: | "jglazener" <j.glazener14(at)gmail.com> |
I've got one. Send me a message on +31 6 22494689.
--------
Jeroen
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509259#509259
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Dynon Skyview Auto Pilot Servo |
| From: | "BobD" <rjdawson14(at)gmail.com> |
Does anyone have a Dynon SV32 Standard Arm Servo for sale ?
--------
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509260#509260
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Just Two Days Left... |
Dear Listers,
There are just a Two days left for this year's List Fund Raiser! If you've been
putting off making a Contribution until the last minute, well, this is it!
The last minute, that is... :-) There are some GREAT new gift selections to choose
from this year. I personally want at least three of them! There's probably
something you can't live without too! And, best of all it supports your
Lists!
Please remember that there isn't any sort of commercial advertising on the Lists
and the *only* means of keeping these Lists running is through your Contributions
during this Fund Raiser. Let's make this a "Black Friday" for the Lists!
Please make a Contribution today!
https://matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Empennage is finally done; ended up rebuilding the entire section due to annoying
original surface issues, and now it is better than ever.
Apart for a couple of inspection hatches, muffler, and main wheel to be added over
the next few days the model is now good enough and complete for a multitude
of uses. Some final artifact removal and fillet tuning on the rudder and thats
Baker Built #181 done n dusted.
Very happy with the result! Viva le Europa...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509339#509339
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/7378652b_0be8_473b_aecb_882686907ce9_753.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/b71ebec0_7c49_4a89_9495_14397bdfc777_194.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/cdf6d143_8fe1_4704_958c_bad8a25a7a35_154.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c38cd7a7_df54_4ee4_9c04_fccedda43068_172.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Today the very back end of Baker Build 181 received some final tweaking around
the rudder foil belly and top fillet edges... The inspection plates went in and
the tailwheel arm got updated and set in place to match actuals along with the
underbelly port for the original factory Classic tail wheel... the day has
finished with a digital application of All-U-Need 2pack high build epoxy sealer
primer to keep the digital moister out of our perfect digital surfaces.
Tomorrow will set in the factory main wheel into the tyre and see the same for
the current tail wheel.
And that's it folks for everything that is visual; from here on its all just unseen
under the skin mechanical stuff. We have a complete real world aerodynamic
model of a Europa Classic; ready for deep analysis.
Tomorrow will be looking forward to bringing this chapter to completion... the
Obsidian File is in review!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509340#509340
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/40ee7598_eeb9_4526_a897_18380257decf_887.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fa4fb748_c771_4923_9ead_e2aa20fcc61c_170.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aea1f43e_f8ab_4eaa_b17a_67b8f52db01b_173.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/78879ebc_6f1d_4787_ab4b_2f212ee4640e_805.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/10bde18e_bdca_495e_834a_6a3fade7b50e_595.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Zut <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File |
Mucho-Cool!
Eagerly awaiting the analysis! :-)
Cheers,
PeteZ
Classic C-GNPZ
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 10:21 AM Area-51
wrote:
> goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>
>
> Today the very back end of Baker Build 181 received some final tweaking
> around the rudder foil belly and top fillet edges... The inspection plates
> went in and the tailwheel arm got updated and set in place to match actuals
> along with the underbelly port for the original factory Classic tail
> wheel... the day has finished with a digital application of All-U-Need
> 2pack high build epoxy sealer primer to keep the digital moister out of our
> perfect digital surfaces.
>
> Tomorrow will set in the factory main wheel into the tyre and see the same
> for the current tail wheel.
>
> And that's it folks for everything that is visual; from here on its all
> just unseen under the skin mechanical stuff. We have a complete real world
> aerodynamic model of a Europa Classic; ready for deep analysis.
>
> Tomorrow will be looking forward to bringing this chapter to completion...
> the Obsidian File is in review!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509340#509340
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/40ee7598_eeb9_4526_a897_18380257decf_887.jpeg
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/fa4fb748_c771_4923_9ead_e2aa20fcc61c_170.jpeg
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/aea1f43e_f8ab_4eaa_b17a_67b8f52db01b_173.jpeg
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/78879ebc_6f1d_4787_ab4b_2f212ee4640e_805.jpeg
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/10bde18e_bdca_495e_834a_6a3fade7b50e_595.jpeg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Today is my birthday
again - 59! :-) I've been running these Lists since I was 28!
But, it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics Email List
Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those really nice
incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!!
If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting
it off for some reason, NOW is the time!
I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want
to be known as a person that supported the Lists!
I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in
support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running
and I don't ever forget it.
The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making
your Contribution right now:
https://matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
USA
Thank you in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Done, thanks for "your" contribution and dedication Matt...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509423#509423
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Pete!
An easy day for a change; main wheel, original Classic tail wheel, muffler, and
a few renders to check how it all looks... that's a wrap now on all the outside
stuff; summer has started...
Time for a little bit of a rest...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509427#509427
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/a1d52493_251e_4a47_b961_8f3b2adae758_314.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/32f63006_4e17_4f2f_80ab_5c335ccafd10_143.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/53812dee_4232_4ac1_a778_0c7ba7ae6ee8_184.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/498fb121_6fed_4dcf_8597_5180afbf4ff1_188.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/525cf31f_7e28_4804_a7d9_4636e4279fc7_624.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/41b96ecd_b1bd_4ecc_99b9_2c60d5a6be08_172.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/e335a5d2_4b48_4514_bdda_8bd6002bea89_163.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/b6e2b695_818f_4075_837e_d36a93443320_198.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/06d1b3d1_77c8_4b5f_a092_ad3d30831c03_148.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Mono Factory Tail Wheel Mounting |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Hi, does anyone have some assembly images of mounting up the factory tail wheel
on the classic mono?
John has fitted the assembly's mounting block to the interior bulkhead, however
it is not aligned with the exit port on the fuselage for the pivot shaft... trying
to work out what has gone wrong in there.
Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509430#509430
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/4c0e8064_b77c_4657_b6c1_a909f9a2e594_189.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mono Factory Tail Wheel Mounting |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Just noticed; its been mounted upside down ...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509431#509431
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mono Factory Tail Wheel Mounting |
It looks like the mounting block is mounted upside down. The built-in stops can
be seen on the bottom; these should be on the top.
Duncan Mcf.
> On 02 December 2022 at 06:00 Area-51 wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, does anyone have some assembly images of mounting up the factory tail wheel
on the classic mono?
>
> John has fitted the assembly's mounting block to the interior bulkhead, however
it is not aligned with the exit port on the fuselage for the pivot shaft...
trying to work out what has gone wrong in there.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509430#509430
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/4c0e8064_b77c_4657_b6c1_a909f9a2e594_189.jpeg
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mono Factory Tail Wheel Mounting |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Duncan; yes correct... thought about it a bit more and John's standard of
assembly; rather than error he would of had a reason and purpose to flip things
upside down; probably control cable alignment. The aircraft has been set up
for control rod to the rudder and then John has retro fitted after completion
to just cables.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509434#509434
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
With the 3D aero model now complete its onto a new chapter as mechanical and ancillaries
come into the fore; and fruit has arrived straight off the get go.
After reading and hearing about so many issues regarding the mono retract the first
thing that has been focused upon is the undercarriage. Having the model available
now provides the ability to try things out and get answers almost instantly.
So that's exactly what happened as soon as the remaining components of
the assembly were drafted and imported into the picture today.
The first goto was undercarriage action; why does it jam closed on some aircraft?
Why is it so difficult to retract when throwing that final bit of the lever
forward? It was interesting what showed up! An initial earlier solution drafted
last year was quickly thrown in the bin but it was this study that revealed
where the issue actually now resided.
Having the 3D CAD components assembled allowed a study of the geometry of the retractable
assembly, and sure enough it was so very possible to jam the undercarriage
in the retracted position; and was remarkably easy to affect; literally
just a mm or two beyond the gate stop on the console did it and the wheel was
stuck fast in the tunnel void.
It was instantly apparent that the only way this could geometrically be possible
is if one of the mechanical arms has moved passed a point to rest within a 90deg
quadrant. So that's where the focus went to and thats what was quickly flushed
out... the rubber block assembly had crossed over and was resting at 80deg
to the swing of its upstream link. And there it was, with the only thing preventing
jamming in situ now being the weight of the main wheel overcoming the
tension of the bungee spring... Its the very same reason causing that last bit
of retract throw on the cockpit lever being difficult; and perhaps the very
same reason some owners simply tighten up the bungee spring to get things to park
up. (The attached geometry image shows the factory positioning at the blue
circles, the magenta line being the 90deg quadrant marker relative to pin LG04's
position, the blue line represents the rubber block assembly).
So gee what to do? ?? Well what if things get realigned to their respective 90deg
quadrant? worth a go; what's required? Rotate a single pivot point 10deg and
revision of LG02A... So that's what got drafted out and presto, problem instantly
gone away to the graveyard of great ideas... Amazing!!! Took all of five
minutes to solve on the 2D and another 10 to draft up a new 3D functional component
and check for clashing and binding.
With pin LG04's position at LG02A now rotated 10deg on the spring blocks arc it
is now geometrically impossible to jam the undercarriage; even if the main wheel
somehow finds its way up through the tunnel ceiling to the instrument panel
facia; which it now can do if the lever is moved beyond its gated travel.
So that's it, MOD-XX... Done!
Fitting of LG02A-XX and reboring of LG02 for LG04's amended position, being 150mm
horizontal and 7mm vertical from the datum centre bore of LG03.
The other attached images show the difference between LG02A and LG02A-XX; the position
of the bungee pin on LG02-XX has also been raised a few mm for better
operational clearance.
So can somebody please explain what the bungee spring actually does??? I cannot
find or identify a practical mechanical reason for it at all other than to overcome
the existing geometry error; unless this perceived error is intentional?
Thanks for reading everything; well done!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509435#509435
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/0c2811c4_5687_479e_8d89_ed360c7f4c9c_437.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/5c1a69af_790e_4a51_a3bd_8506e15c35f6_343.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/e8371182_c043_4319_a5aa_c216cd42e8bb_157.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/f6e8ca6f_6a3a_43da_8d31_fb5ae6e8e277_189.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/0ef69eca_b797_45ac_828c_7cdc5f70dafb_189.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
=EF=BB
=EF=BBFwiw, my experience:
1- difficulty in getting the gear into to and out of the up-gate (regardless
of bungy tension) was due to the flap rod adjustment being too short, causi
ng the flaps to top-out, restricting the gear up travel.
2- general binding of the swing-arm was due to a bent gear/engine frame pivo
t tube. Bent due to having been side loaded when the gear was in the down po
sition, an angle where that tube is totally unbraced/supported. I suspect ma
ny frames in the field are bent. The builder of my bird had actually shimmed
the arm bushing to accommodate and reduce the binding (band aid solution). W
hen repairing my frame, i added a truss to the frame at the correct angle to
support the tube and prevent any future bending.
3- the bungee is simply to assist the pilot in raising the gear. I tensioned
mine such that it pulls the gear up about 60% when doing the gear swing tes
t. I find that with this tension my gear takes minimal effort over its entir
e swing range in flight.
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 3, 2022, at 9:55 AM, Area-51 wrote:
>
@gmail.com>
>
> With the 3D aero model now complete its onto a new chapter as mechanical a
nd ancillaries come into the fore; and fruit has arrived straight off the ge
t go.
>
> After reading and hearing about so many issues regarding the mono retract t
he first thing that has been focused upon is the undercarriage. Having the m
odel available now provides the ability to try things out and get answers al
most instantly. So that's exactly what happened as soon as the remaining com
ponents of the assembly were drafted and imported into the picture today.
>
> The first goto was undercarriage action; why does it jam closed on some ai
rcraft? Why is it so difficult to retract when throwing that final bit of th
e lever forward? It was interesting what showed up! An initial earlier solut
ion drafted last year was quickly thrown in the bin but it was this study th
at revealed where the issue actually now resided.
>
> Having the 3D CAD components assembled allowed a study of the geometry of t
he retractable assembly, and sure enough it was so very possible to jam the u
ndercarriage in the retracted position; and was remarkably easy to affect; l
iterally just a mm or two beyond the gate stop on the console did it and the
wheel was stuck fast in the tunnel void.
>
> It was instantly apparent that the only way this could geometrically be po
ssible is if one of the mechanical arms has moved passed a point to rest wit
hin a 90deg quadrant. So that's where the focus went to and thats what was q
uickly flushed out... the rubber block assembly had crossed over and was res
ting at 80deg to the swing of its upstream link. And there it was, with the o
nly thing preventing jamming in situ now being the weight of the main wheel o
vercoming the tension of the bungee spring... Its the very same reason causi
ng that last bit of retract throw on the cockpit lever being difficult; and p
erhaps the very same reason some owners simply tighten up the bungee spring t
o get things to park up. (The attached geometry image shows the factory posi
tioning at the blue circles, the magenta line being the 90deg quadrant marke
r relative to pin LG04's position, the blue line represents the rubber block
assembly).
>
> So gee what to do? ?? Well what if things get realigned to their respectiv
e 90deg quadrant? worth a go; what's required? Rotate a single pivot point 1
0deg and revision of LG02A... So that's what got drafted out and presto, pro
blem instantly gone away to the graveyard of great ideas... Amazing!!! Took a
ll of five minutes to solve on the 2D and another 10 to draft up a new 3D fu
nctional component and check for clashing and binding.
>
> With pin LG04's position at LG02A now rotated 10deg on the spring blocks a
rc it is now geometrically impossible to jam the undercarriage; even if the m
ain wheel somehow finds its way up through the tunnel ceiling to the instrum
ent panel facia; which it now can do if the lever is moved beyond its gated t
ravel.
>
> So that's it, MOD-XX... Done!
>
> Fitting of LG02A-XX and reboring of LG02 for LG04's amended position, bein
g 150mm horizontal and 7mm vertical from the datum centre bore of LG03.
>
> The other attached images show the difference between LG02A and LG02A-XX; t
he position of the bungee pin on LG02-XX has also been raised a few mm for b
etter operational clearance.
>
> So can somebody please explain what the bungee spring actually does??? I c
annot find or identify a practical mechanical reason for it at all other tha
n to overcome the existing geometry error; unless this perceived error is in
tentional?
>
> Thanks for reading everything; well done!
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509435#509435
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/0c2811c4_5687_479e_8d89_ed360c7f4c9c_43
7.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/5c1a69af_790e_4a51_a3bd_8506e15c35f6_34
3.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/e8371182_c043_4319_a5aa_c216cd42e8bb_15
7.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/f6e8ca6f_6a3a_43da_8d31_fb5ae6e8e277_18
9.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/0ef69eca_b797_45ac_828c_7cdc5f70dafb_18
9.jpeg
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Nice solution Peter; what gauge tubing has been used there?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509437#509437
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Some further thoughts today upon this.
With a focus toward keeping things as simple as possible a fast solution to more
easily employ was brought in after a discussion with another Europian... The
latest mod employs a buffer stop mounted on LG02 to prevent the undercarriage
raising too far up into the tunnel and the rubber block assembly reaching the
geometric locking position. The height of the buffer can be altered by placing
washers under its base thus adjusting the parking position of LG02.
The nut fixing the buffer to LG02 has been given the function of a jacking pin
for security and safety purposes.
Some photos included.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509439#509439
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/587804b7_9dd3_4ce6_b887_fc4c72208f83_211.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/93ab2be7_1f9a_4045_82c0_fd1fa71cc1f9_195.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/529850f9_05da_4241_8a1f_a78394a10f4d_219.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/4c0ad6f2_3280_45b2_9403_027bde1e7e9e_162.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/a9494e6d_4ee7_4e33_8cb1_818685ac2352_488.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Dave Disney" <davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk> |
This is an interesting subject.
The question is asked what the bungee actually does. I replaced my bungee a couple
of years ago and did some retractions without it (aircraft jacked in the hangar
so no aerodynamic assistance). It was bloody hard work to retract without
the bungee. When I installed the new bungee it had 1 extra loop and was tensioned
a lot more than the one I removed. The gear is now really easy to operate
both in the air and in the hangar!
I'm not quite sure I agree with your overcentre analysis. I am one of the few who
have done a wheel up landing (not because I forgot, but don't ask how it happened).
After the landing the gear was really easy to lower despite the fact
that it had gone right up into the tunnel with the wheel contacting the throttle
lever and the brake caliper severing a rudder cable. With the wheel going this
far up, wouldn't your overcentre case be realised?
On another topic, I really like your 3D modelling. I have produced a Solidworks
3D model for the fuselage frame by taking measurements and reverse engineering
it. I'm doing this for a new conventional gear design I'm working on. I would
love to compare my model with yours, what software are you using for your modelling
and how are you going about it?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509440#509440
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
Fwiw, my throttle box serves that same purpose :)
> On Dec 4, 2022, at 12:34 AM, Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> Some further thoughts today upon this.
>
> With a focus toward keeping things as simple as possible a fast solution to more
easily employ was brought in after a discussion with another Europian... The
latest mod employs a buffer stop mounted on LG02 to prevent the undercarriage
raising too far up into the tunnel and the rubber block assembly reaching the
geometric locking position. The height of the buffer can be altered by placing
washers under its base thus adjusting the parking position of LG02.
>
> The nut fixing the buffer to LG02 has been given the function of a jacking pin
for security and safety purposes.
>
> Some photos included.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509439#509439
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/587804b7_9dd3_4ce6_b887_fc4c72208f83_211.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/93ab2be7_1f9a_4045_82c0_fd1fa71cc1f9_195.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/529850f9_05da_4241_8a1f_a78394a10f4d_219.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/4c0ad6f2_3280_45b2_9403_027bde1e7e9e_162.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/a9494e6d_4ee7_4e33_8cb1_818685ac2352_488.jpeg
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
5/8x0.035
> On Dec 3, 2022, at 10:13 PM, Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> Nice solution Peter; what gauge tubing has been used there?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509437#509437
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks, much appreciated... can i have your permission to copy your mod into the
mix?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509443#509443
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Today repositioning of the brake caliper was given a quick review after string
lining in the rudder cables; and it revealed that John had indeed flipped the
classic tailwheel block upside down to gain better cable alignment... a moment
force study was also commenced on yesterday's mod to LG02A to determine the affect
at the operator handle end of the situation; will have to run the same test
again on the current setup to compare.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509444#509444
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
Lol.sure :)
> On Dec 4, 2022, at 10:18 AM, Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> Thanks, much appreciated... can i have your permission to copy your mod into
the mix?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509443#509443
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Jon Smith" <jonosmitheuropa(at)btinternet.com> |
My thoughts about altering the retraction geometry; If Ive got it right, your
proposal is to move the bottom pivot (the LG8 pin) forward a bit, albeit on an
arc. My uneducated opinion is that may well reduce the amount of over-centre
of the down-lock geometry to a critically small amount that could lead to the
undercarriage unlocking and collapsing. The amount of over-centre is quite
small anyway; the centre pivot should be 1/16 to 1/8 forward of a line between
the top & bottom pivots. If its less than 1/16the over-centre lock will be
dangerously weak and at risk of unlocking whereas if its any more than 1/8 too
much load will be put on the frame, running the risk of frame damage. IMHO
the original design was developed for very good reasons and does not need messing
around with! If its built correctly and if its then maintained correctly
it should not fail.
--------
G-TERN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509447#509447
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | EZ Resolution for Leaking Europa Main Fuel Tank? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group
I was getting my Aux. Fuel Tank ready for storage and hatched an idea for an EZ
Main Fuel Tank leak.
I have a 914 XS Mono. I put a 914 pump on tank to transfer fuel.:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah1S270Nwg9VgfUd0NmCXChH71Wo1g?e=eEID73
Here's my knee jerk idea to possibly deal with a Leaking Main Fuel Tank?:
In my case, install a Long Range style tank to the Port side of my Aeroplane, it
could hold a bit more than the Starboard Factory tank? Install a 914 pump on
that tank as well and just plumb into existing system. Then cut access holes
in the seat back to allow storage inside the leaking tank.
True some details to work out, but nothing that I see at first think to be insurmountable.
If running a bit tail heavy, just install the Depleted Uranium spinner!.
I would have an added incentive to do such a thing, I glassed in Balsa per Nev
under door sill to strengthen and have them filled with wires. In addition on
the top of the cockpit module,I also needed to run plus and minus to the other
side of plane. Starboard is + and port is -, and ran to other side of plane with
a thin wide copper Sheet glassed to the top of the Cockpit Module that would
need to be dealt with.
OK, thoughts?
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509448#509448
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Jon, thanks for your thoughts there however needs correcting..
Position of LG08 components are not altered; the over center locking affect on
extension is actually marginally improved.
Pin LG04 is moved slightly rearward and down upon its arc, relative to the opposite
pivot point at LG08. This keeps the rubber spring block assembly outside
of a 90deg arc from LG08 when retracted. If things here cross over less than 90deg
they can jam in the retracted position if the bungee is too tight.
Apart for preventing a possible lock up in the retracted position the operation
of the landing gear is otherwise unchanged. Moving the position of LG04 adds
mechanical advantage at the final end of retraction; which the bungee currently
provides.
The addition of a sacrificial buffer prevents retracting of the undercarriage too
far. The above repositioning of pin LG04 is helpful but not required
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509450#509450
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Today the numbers on mod-xx were run through the trap. Short story 50% reduction
in component stress and force required at the operator end.
Both factory and mod-xx had the same parameters applied along with gravity to factor
in the torque of the swing arm's mass. LG12 undercarriage lever has been
modelled using 4.0mm 1020 sheet steel.
At close out of the undercarriage retraction the factory setup delivers a 30200
Nm moment from LG08's axis to the operator handle while mod-xx delivers 13600
Nm.
Force required in the X direction (forward moving) at the operator handle for the
factory setup is 700 N while mod-xx requires 320 N.
Tension force required at the bungee to reach zero mass balance at of the L02 undercarriage
arm is 860 N
The assembly model received a vertical force of 100 N at the wheel axle line and
gravity factor... bungee tension was not added to either test model.
This concludes this Obsidian File chapter to further discussion.
Images included for the technically astute.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509451#509451
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/897020e8_3e8b_4de0_9265_44fdeb6a39a8_121.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/04f209dd_820c_4c78_b33d_1517268f32b4_121.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1c44905b_5776_4e1d_ab32_6cc037b6df93_335.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fcf28621_34bd_4ecd_80db_76ee499c4ffe_137.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c47d328d_72e9_4ebd_9b20_4308e55b0e19_515.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
A further demonstration that the monowheel doesn't comply with CS-VLA (in respect
of side loads on the main under carriage).
Duncan McF.
> On 03 December 2022 at 16:44 Pete wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Fwiw, my experience:
>
> 1- difficulty in getting the gear into to and out of the up-gate (regardless
of bungy tension) was due to the flap rod adjustment being too short, causing
the flaps to top-out, restricting the gear up travel.
>
> 2- general binding of the swing-arm was due to a bent gear/engine frame pivot
tube. Bent due to having been side loaded when the gear was in the down position,
an angle where that tube is totally unbraced/supported. I suspect many
frames in the field are bent. The builder of my bird had actually shimmed the
arm bushing to accommodate and reduce the binding (band aid solution). When
repairing my frame, i added a truss to the frame at the correct angle to support
the tube and prevent any future bending.
>
> 3- the bungee is simply to assist the pilot in raising the gear. I tensioned
mine such that it pulls the gear up about 60% when doing the gear swing test.
I find that with this tension my gear takes minimal effort over its entire
swing range in flight.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > On Dec 3, 2022, at 9:55 AM, Area-51 wrote:
> >
> >
> > With the 3D aero model now complete its onto a new chapter as mechanical
and ancillaries come into the fore; and fruit has arrived straight off the
get go.
> >
> > After reading and hearing about so many issues regarding the mono retract
the first thing that has been focused upon is the undercarriage. Having
the model available now provides the ability to try things out and get answers
almost instantly. So that's exactly what happened as soon as the remaining components
of the assembly were drafted and imported into the picture today.
> >
> > The first goto was undercarriage action; why does it jam closed on
some aircraft? Why is it so difficult to retract when throwing that final bit
of the lever forward? It was interesting what showed up! An initial earlier solution
drafted last year was quickly thrown in the bin but it was this study that
revealed where the issue actually now resided.
> >
> > Having the 3D CAD components assembled allowed a study of the geometry
of the retractable assembly, and sure enough it was so very possible to jam
the undercarriage in the retracted position; and was remarkably easy to affect;
literally just a mm or two beyond the gate stop on the console did it and
the wheel was stuck fast in the tunnel void.
> >
> > It was instantly apparent that the only way this could geometrically
be possible is if one of the mechanical arms has moved passed a point to rest
within a 90deg quadrant. So that's where the focus went to and thats what was
quickly flushed out... the rubber block assembly had crossed over and was resting
at 80deg to the swing of its upstream link. And there it was, with the only
thing preventing jamming in situ now being the weight of the main wheel overcoming
the tension of the bungee spring... Its the very same reason causing
that last bit of retract throw on the cockpit lever being difficult; and perhaps
the very same reason some owners simply tighten up the bungee spring to get
things to park up. (The attached geometry image shows the factory positioning
at the blue circles, the magenta line being the 90deg quadrant marker relative
to pin LG04's position, the blue line represents the rubber block assembly).
> >
> > So gee what to do? ?? Well what if things get realigned to their respective
90deg quadrant? worth a go; what's required? Rotate a single pivot point
10deg and revision of LG02A... So that's what got drafted out and presto,
problem instantly gone away to the graveyard of great ideas... Amazing!!! Took
all of five minutes to solve on the 2D and another 10 to draft up a new 3D functional
component and check for clashing and binding.
> >
> > With pin LG04's position at LG02A now rotated 10deg on the spring blocks
arc it is now geometrically impossible to jam the undercarriage; even if
the main wheel somehow finds its way up through the tunnel ceiling to the instrument
panel facia; which it now can do if the lever is moved beyond its gated
travel.
> >
> > So that's it, MOD-XX... Done!
> >
> > Fitting of LG02A-XX and reboring of LG02 for LG04's amended position,
being 150mm horizontal and 7mm vertical from the datum centre bore of LG03.
> >
> > The other attached images show the difference between LG02A and LG02A-XX;
the position of the bungee pin on LG02-XX has also been raised a few mm
for better operational clearance.
> >
> > So can somebody please explain what the bungee spring actually does???
I cannot find or identify a practical mechanical reason for it at all other
than to overcome the existing geometry error; unless this perceived error is
intentional?
> >
> > Thanks for reading everything; well done!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509435#509435
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Attachments:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/0c2811c4_5687_479e_8d89_ed360c7f4c9c_437.jpeg
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/5c1a69af_790e_4a51_a3bd_8506e15c35f6_343.jpeg
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/e8371182_c043_4319_a5aa_c216cd42e8bb_157.jpeg
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/f6e8ca6f_6a3a_43da_8d31_fb5ae6e8e277_189.jpeg
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/0ef69eca_b797_45ac_828c_7cdc5f70dafb_189.jpeg
> >
> > > ===================================
> ===================================
> ===================================
> ===================================
> ---------------------------------------------
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File - Mono Undercarriage |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Any aircraft undercarriage or mechanical item for that matter will fail if impacted
with enough force; damage to the mono undercarriage from excessive side loaded
touchdowns can be mitigated by several ways; one being thought about this
afternoon may find its way into the chapter shortly... or be relegated to the
graveyard of great ideas.
Keep in mind the undercarriage will not lock up if the bungee tension is less than
required to hold the undercarriage above its parked position; the weight of
the wheel and gravity is what brings the assembly out of this scenario each
time, however the force needed to close out the undercarriage remains constant.
The force required to action the undercarriage through the retraction stage
is not the same.
Somebody mentioned about the operational over center specification; this is an
adjustable setting that needs to be maintained regardless.
Dave upstream there asked about how I go about doing this and what software is
used... great to hear you are building a model; wishing you well with that! Regarding
software; they all provide the same result; buttons are often in different
places, same as politicians and beer... I use a few very special ancient
tools that few these days know exactly what they each do... A piece of string
is the most highly valued, next is a plumb bob, a spirit level but i have been
known to use a glass of water during desperate moments, cardboard (cardboard
is your best friend), protractor, calipers, a roll of masking tape, good even
lighting, a clean floor, a sharp pencil, a blunt pencil, a white board marker,
a rheem of plain A4 paper, an adhoc laser pointer on an adjustable tripod, a
ruler and tape measure, lots and lots and lots and then some more time, lots of
coffee hamburgers, about 30,000 hrs playing CAD, and about 45years of analytical
experience.
The model here has taken about 300 hours to measure and a further 1100 to accurately
model from the data collected.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509453#509453
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Anti Door Warping |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Area 51
Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps you
want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will
actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive
mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent
bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder
mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with some
CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight
in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
Im still planning on adding an over-center cam into the rebate to take all the
compressed (closed) forces of the gas strut, totally unloading the door when closed.
Just haven't got to it yet, just like my cable-handle door hinge-pins inverted
escape puller :)
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 5, 2022, at 7:51 PM, rparigoris wrote:
>
>
> Hi Area 51
> Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps you
want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will
actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive
mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent
bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder
mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with
some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight
in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
> Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
> http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
> Ron P.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The Obsidian File |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
The aero model is now complete, with individual split control surfaces... Today
saw a bit more final detail added to the aero model to prepare for another round
of tests in the digital wind tunnel... no idea what may happen with what is
now such a feature rich model. Computer may not be able to handle the crunching
of so many components this close to christmas...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509456#509456
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.200.110.1.12)
That passive pin is a tricky problem to solve, to offload the gas strut but not
obstruct door closing fully.
My practical efforts were unsuccessful & I would love to see a CAD solution Santa...
> On 6 Dec 2022, at 00:44, rparigoris wrote:
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise caution
when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
>
>
> Hi Area 51
> Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps you
want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will
actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive
mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent
bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder
mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with
some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight
in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
> Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
> http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
> Ron P.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
>
>
Roger Sheridan
Line Pilot
+44 (0) 1737 822 885
www.specialist-aviation.com
Specialist Aviation Services Limited Registered in England and Wales No:1848773
Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
GL51 6SS
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
I wonder sometime why the gas strut.
There are some bonnets/boots/trunk and other doors that have a simple slide and
latch open solution. This has the advantage of holding door open and you the
push a release to allow door to drop, while holding it to stop sudden descent,
but no pressure on any part of door frame.
I dont have any off-shelf mechanisms in mind for this that Ive tried.
Thoughts, problems?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
> On 7 Dec 2022, at 13:15, SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan@specialist-aviation.com> wrote:
>
>
> That passive pin is a tricky problem to solve, to offload the gas strut but not
obstruct door closing fully.
> My practical efforts were unsuccessful & I would love to see a CAD solution Santa...
>
>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 00:44, rparigoris wrote:
>>
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise caution
when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
>>
>>
>> Hi Area 51
>> Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps
you want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will
actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive
mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent
bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder
mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with
some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight
in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
>> Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
>> http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
>> Ron P.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Roger Sheridan
>
> Line Pilot
>
> +44 (0) 1737 822 885
>
>
> www.specialist-aviation.com
>
> Specialist Aviation Services Limited Registered in England and Wales No:1848773
> Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
GL51 6SS
>
> This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use
of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient,
you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any attachments. Any
such action may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please
notify us immediately by replying to the message and delete it from your computer.
Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
> Internet communications may be intercepted, corrupted, lost, arrive late or incomplete,
or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for
any errors or omissions that have arisen as a result of email transmission or
for viruses. It is your responsibility to conduct your own virus checking. If
verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any opinions expressed
are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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>
> Scanned by SystemForce I.T. PRMX Security System
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
Lots of ideas in this thread:
https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/keeping-a-swing-over-canopy-open.39598/#post-690498
Personally I like Justin's "scissor" mechanism best (which contains the gas strut
loads when the door is shut). Anyone got any dimensioned drawings for that?
Duncan McF.
> On 07 December 2022 at 14:11 Alan Burrill wrote:
>
>
>
> I wonder sometime why the gas strut.
>
> There are some bonnets/boots/trunk and other doors that have a simple slide and
latch open solution. This has the advantage of holding door open and you the
push a release to allow door to drop, while holding it to stop sudden descent,
but no pressure on any part of door frame.
>
> I dont have any off-shelf mechanisms in mind for this that Ive tried.
>
> Thoughts, problems?
>
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On 7 Dec 2022, at 13:15, SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan@specialist-aviation.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > That passive pin is a tricky problem to solve, to offload the gas strut but
not obstruct door closing fully.
> > My practical efforts were unsuccessful & I would love to see a CAD solution
Santa...
> >
> >> On 6 Dec 2022, at 00:44, rparigoris wrote:
> >>
> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise caution
when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Area 51
> >> Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps
you want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that
will actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive
mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent
bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder
mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with
some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight
in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
> >> Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
> >> http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
> >> Ron P.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Roger Sheridan
> >
> > Line Pilot
> >
> > +44 (0) 1737 822 885
> >
> >
> > www.specialist-aviation.com
> >
> > Specialist Aviation Services Limited Registered in England and Wales No:1848773
> > Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
GL51 6SS
> >
> > This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the
use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient,
you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any attachments.
Any such action may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please
notify us immediately by replying to the message and delete it from your
computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
> > Internet communications may be intercepted, corrupted, lost, arrive late or
incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for
any errors or omissions that have arisen as a result of email transmission or
for viruses. It is your responsibility to conduct your own virus checking. If
verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any opinions expressed
are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the
company.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Scanned by SystemForce I.T. PRMX Security System
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Ron, thanks for your request regarding door warping... to be straight up its
not an issue i have time to sit and examine; my time is constantly truly limited.
The CAD testing calls for a non dynamic testing algorithm which will not be accurate
enough to be useful to anybody due to so many variables; and that is the
b&w of what you are asking.
Cardboard is your best friend (and a pencil and some basic map charting tools)
; draw your solution and proof it on paper first using a pencil and circles; i
think thats how your passive pin system works? (See attached basic sketch)...
its going to be a solution of two arcs; the swing of the door frame and shape
of the pin and its parking gate. If you can get it to work with paper stencils
then it will work in situ. CAD will not provide you any better result or magic
solution. All CAD will provide you is the ability to record and replicate;
that's the only magic CAD will ever provide anybody. Personally from my quick
sketch i don't think it is a practical solution but more of a band aid for a greater
upstream affect; i could be totally wrong and often am.
The issue is not really safety related, which is my focus. It does hold some aerodynamic
qualities there, and the simple solution "is" strengthen the door frame
sufficiently at the time of production.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509463#509463
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/eec4e83c_aec3_460b_9585_589875a3317f_205.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.200.110.1.12)
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
Overcenter cam..no friction. :)
> On Dec 8, 2022, at 9:38 AM, SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan@specialist-aviation.
com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BBThanks for that suggestion A51.
>
> My passive pin attempt had too much friction but the roller idea is a grea
t one that I might try.
>
> Alan, Dirk Oyen uses a passive support strut:
>
>
>
>
> Roger Sheridan
>
> Line Pilot
>
> +44 (0) 1737 822 885
>
>
> www.specialist-aviation.com
>
> Specialist Aviation Services Limited =93 Registered in England and W
ales No:1848773
> Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Glouces
tershire GL51 6SS
>
> This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for th
e use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended r
ecipient, you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any attachmen
ts. Any such action may be unlawful. If you have received this message in er
ror, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and delete it f
rom your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
> Internet communications may be intercepted, corrupted, lost, arrive late o
r incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
for any errors or omissions that have arisen as a result of email transmiss
ion or for viruses. It is your responsibility to conduct your own virus chec
king. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any o
pinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily represent t
hose of the company.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
>
>
> Scanned by SystemForce I.T. PRMX Security System
>
>> On 8 Dec 2022, at 06:59, Area-51 wrote:
>>
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise c
aution when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
>>
om>
>>
>> Hi Ron, thanks for your request regarding door warping... to be straight u
p its not an issue i have time to sit and examine; my time is constantly tru
ly limited.
>>
>> The CAD testing calls for a non dynamic testing algorithm which will not b
e accurate enough to be useful to anybody due to so many variables; and that
is the b&w of what you are asking.
>>
>> Cardboard is your best friend (and a pencil and some basic map charting t
ools) ; draw your solution and proof it on paper first using a pencil and ci
rcles; i think thats how your passive pin system works? (See attached basic s
ketch)... its going to be a solution of two arcs; the swing of the door fram
e and shape of the pin and its parking gate. If you can get it to work with p
aper stencils then it will work in situ. CAD will not provide you any better
result or magic solution. All CAD will provide you is the ability to record
and replicate; that's the only magic CAD will ever provide anybody. Persona
lly from my quick sketch i don't think it is a practical solution but more o
f a band aid for a greater upstream affect; i could be totally wrong and oft
en am.
>>
>> The issue is not really safety related, which is my focus. It does hold s
ome aerodynamic qualities there, and the simple solution "is" strengthen the
door frame sufficiently at the time of production.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509463#509463
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/eec4e83c_aec3_460b_9585_589875a3317f_2
05.jpeg
>>
>>
>>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: N460HJ flies again |
| From: | "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> |
Great news Will. Let us know how your new tank performs.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509467#509467
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
| From: | "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> |
Interesting thread.
My LongEZ has a simple scissor type with over-center locking bar to keep the canopy
open. In the LEZ case the latch only moves 90 were in ours it needs to go
180 but it should not be too hard to modify.
Simple and works well. The canopy doesn't slam down on your head as it happens
on my EU once in awhile (I actually taxy with the door partially closed held open
with a small foam block).
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509469#509469
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1694_134.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1691_193.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1695_131.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
The best and simplest solution ever for this type of hatch can be found on the
rear window of the Hillman Imp produced by Rootes Group Scotland 1961-1976; had
a few for 25 years and never had a failure.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509474#509474
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
> On 8 Dec 2022, at 21:04, Area-51
wrote:
>
> The best and simplest solution ever for this type of hatch can be
found on the rear window of the Hillman Imp produced by Rootes Group
Scotland 1961-1976; had a few for 25 years and never had a failure.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509474#509474
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anti Door Warping |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group
Nev's solution with passive pins and CF reinforcement works great. I made cardboard
mock up and was able to get geometry spot on. Had packaging tape on fuse
and used JB KWIK Weld to temporarily hold in exact position. Then once bonded
in perfect position and all is working great we then drilled fuse for screws.
If alignment is not spot on friction is high and it doesn't work.
It's hard to get your head around the geometry, but once you do, it works great.
We did install over a decade ago and all is well. The pin and striker are made
out of SS.
My build partner Wayne was not convinced with my cardboard mock up. He called it
a muck up! It took him till after completion of pins and striker install and
actual fooling with to be convinced.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509476#509476
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What did you do with your europa this week - 12/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Did what is supposed to be done with a europa; got in it and flew the thing...
flew it three days out of seven and enjoyed every minute of the near perfect conditions
this week for a fly up and down the coast and around the caldera.
Also was fortunate enough to get a ride in another well built europa that turned
up while drinking a cup of tea, and enjoyed that too!
What's next??? .... Fly it again!!!
Such joy...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509478#509478
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/f18eea5d_fb0d_4699_b15d_e1c83d67b481_915.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Karel Vranken <karelvranken9(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 12/08/22 |
Concerning Door Warping, I performed a solution (2004) after seeing a
similar arrangement from Ted Gladstone I suppose. Note also the strap
solution after reinforcement of the door sill.
Karel Vranken.
Op vr 9 dec. 2022 om 08:37 schreef Europa-List Digest Server <
europa-list(at)matronics.com>:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
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> Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of the
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> ===============================================
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>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Europa-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 12/08/22: 7
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Anti Door Warping (SHERIDAN Roger)
> 2. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Anti Door Warping (Pete)
> 3. 07:35 AM - Re: N460HJ flies again (n7188u)
> 4. 07:55 AM - Re: Anti Door Warping (n7188u)
> 5. 01:05 PM - Re: Anti Door Warping (Area-51)
> 6. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: Anti Door Warping (Alan Burrill)
> 7. 01:31 PM - Re: Anti Door Warping (rparigoris)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> From: SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan@specialist-aviation.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.200.110.1.12)
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>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> From: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
>
> Overcenter cam..no friction. :)
>
> > On Dec 8, 2022, at 9:38 AM, SHERIDAN Roger
> <RSheridan@specialist-aviation.
> com> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BBThanks for that suggestion A51.
> >
> > My passive pin attempt had too much friction but the roller idea is a
> grea
> t one that I might try.
> >
> > Alan, Dirk Oyen uses a passive support strut:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Roger Sheridan
> >
> > Line Pilot
> >
> > +44 (0) 1737 822 885
> >
> >
> > www.specialist-aviation.com
> >
> > Specialist Aviation Services Limited =93 Registered in England and W
> ales No:1848773
> > Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham,
> Glouces
> tershire GL51 6SS
> >
> > This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for
> th
> e use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
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> ecipient, you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Scanned by SystemForce I.T. PRMX Security System
>
> >
> >> On 8 Dec 2022, at 06:59, Area-51 wrote:
> >>
> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise
> c
> aution when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
> >>
> om>
> >>
> >> Hi Ron, thanks for your request regarding door warping... to be
> straight u
> p its not an issue i have time to sit and examine; my time is constantly
> tru
> ly limited.
> >>
> >> The CAD testing calls for a non dynamic testing algorithm which will
> not b
> e accurate enough to be useful to anybody due to so many variables; and
> that
> is the b&w of what you are asking.
> >>
> >> Cardboard is your best friend (and a pencil and some basic map charting
> t
> ools) ; draw your solution and proof it on paper first using a pencil and
> ci
> rcles; i think thats how your passive pin system works? (See attached
> basic s
> ketch)... its going to be a solution of two arcs; the swing of the door
> fram
> e and shape of the pin and its parking gate. If you can get it to work
> with p
> aper stencils then it will work in situ. CAD will not provide you any
> better
> result or magic solution. All CAD will provide you is the ability to
> record
> and replicate; that's the only magic CAD will ever provide anybody.
> Persona
> lly from my quick sketch i don't think it is a practical solution but more
> o
> f a band aid for a greater upstream affect; i could be totally wrong and
> oft
> en am.
> >>
> >> The issue is not really safety related, which is my focus. It does hold
> s
> ome aerodynamic qualities there, and the simple solution "is" strengthen
> the
> door frame sufficiently at the time of production.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509463#509463
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Attachments:
> >>
> >>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/eec4e83c_aec3_460b_9585_589875a3317f_2
> 05.jpeg
> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/eec4e83c_aec3_460b_9585_589875a3317f_205.jpeg>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: N460HJ flies again
> From: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com>
>
>
> Great news Will. Let us know how your new tank performs.
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509467#509467
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> From: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com>
>
>
> Interesting thread.
>
> My LongEZ has a simple scissor type with over-center locking bar to keep
> the canopy
> open. In the LEZ case the latch only moves 90 were in ours it needs to go
> 180 but it should not be too hard to modify.
>
> Simple and works well. The canopy doesn't slam down on your head as it
> happens
> on my EU once in awhile (I actually taxy with the door partially closed
> held open
> with a small foam block).
>
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509469#509469
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1694_134.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1691_193.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1695_131.jpg
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> From: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>
>
>
> The best and simplest solution ever for this type of hatch can be found on
> the
> rear window of the Hillman Imp produced by Rootes Group Scotland
> 1961-1976; had
> a few for 25 years and never had a failure.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509474#509474
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> From: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
>
>
> > On 8 Dec 2022, at 21:04, Area-51
> wrote:
>
> >
> > The best and simplest solution ever for this type of hatch can be
> found on the rear window of the Hillman Imp produced by Rootes Group
> Scotland 1961-1976; had a few for 25 years and never had a failure.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509474#509474
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
>
>
> Hi Group
> Nev's solution with passive pins and CF reinforcement works great. I made
> cardboard
> mock up and was able to get geometry spot on. Had packaging tape on fuse
> and used JB KWIK Weld to temporarily hold in exact position. Then once
> bonded
> in perfect position and all is working great we then drilled fuse for
> screws.
> If alignment is not spot on friction is high and it doesn't work.
> It's hard to get your head around the geometry, but once you do, it works
> great.
> We did install over a decade ago and all is well. The pin and striker are
> made
> out of SS.
> My build partner Wayne was not convinced with my cardboard mock up. He
> called it
> a muck up! It took him till after completion of pins and striker install
> and
> actual fooling with to be convinced.
> Ron P.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509476#509476
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 12/08/22 |
Got any dimensioned drawings for the door support? Presuming that you've used standard
gas struts.
Duncan McF.
> On 09 December 2022 at 10:05 Karel Vranken wrote:
>
> Concerning Door Warping, I performed a solution (2004) after seeing a similar
arrangement from Ted Gladstone I suppose. Note also the strap solution after
reinforcement of the door sill.
> Karel Vranken.
>
>
> Op vr 9 dec. 2022 om 08:37 schreef Europa-List Digest Server :
>
> > > *
> >
> > ========================
> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ========================
> >
> > Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of
the
> > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> > of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> > such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >
> > HTML Version:
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 22-12-08&Archive=Europa
> >
> > Text Version:
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 22-12-08&Archive=Europa
> >
> >
> > ======================
> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ======================
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Europa-List Digest Archive
> > ---
> > Total Messages Posted Thu 12/08/22: 7
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Today's Message Index:
> > ----------------------
> >
> > 1. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Anti Door Warping (SHERIDAN Roger)
> > 2. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Anti Door Warping (Pete)
> > 3. 07:35 AM - Re: N460HJ flies again (n7188u)
> > 4. 07:55 AM - Re: Anti Door Warping (n7188u)
> > 5. 01:05 PM - Re: Anti Door Warping (Area-51)
> > 6. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: Anti Door Warping (Alan Burrill)
> > 7. 01:31 PM - Re: Anti Door Warping (rparigoris)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > From: SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan@specialist-aviation.com mailto:RSheridan@specialist-aviation.com >
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> > x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.200.110.1.12)
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> >
> > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > From: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com mailto:peterz(at)zutrasoft.com >
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> >
> > Overcenter cam..no friction. :)
> >
> > > On Dec 8, 2022, at 9:38 AM, SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan@specialist-aviation.
> > com> wrote:
> > >
> > > =EF=BBThanks for that suggestion A51.
> > >
> > > My passive pin attempt had too much friction but the roller idea
is a grea
> > t one that I might try.
> > >
> > > Alan, Dirk Oyen uses a passive support strut:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Roger Sheridan
> > >
> > > Line Pilot
> > >
> > > +44 (0) 1737 822 885
> > >
> > >
> > >http://www.specialist-aviation.com
> > >
> > > Specialist Aviation Services Limited =93 Registered in England and
W
> > ales No:1848773
> > > Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham,
Glouces
> > tershire GL51 6SS
> > >
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> > > Scanned by SystemForce I.T. PRMX Security System
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> > >
> > >> On 8 Dec 2022, at 06:59, Area-51 wrote:
> > >>
> > >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise
c
> > aution when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
> > >>
> > om>
> > >>
> > >> Hi Ron, thanks for your request regarding door warping... to be
straight u
> > p its not an issue i have time to sit and examine; my time is constantly
tru
> > ly limited.
> > >>
> > >> The CAD testing calls for a non dynamic testing algorithm which
will not b
> > e accurate enough to be useful to anybody due to so many variables;
and that
> > is the b&w of what you are asking.
> > >>
> > >> Cardboard is your best friend (and a pencil and some basic map charting
t
> > ools) ; draw your solution and proof it on paper first using a pencil
and ci
> > rcles; i think thats how your passive pin system works? (See attached
basic s
> > ketch)... its going to be a solution of two arcs; the swing of the
door fram
> > e and shape of the pin and its parking gate. If you can get it to work
with p
> > aper stencils then it will work in situ. CAD will not provide you any
better
> > result or magic solution. All CAD will provide you is the ability
to record
> > and replicate; that's the only magic CAD will ever provide anybody.
Persona
> > lly from my quick sketch i don't think it is a practical solution but
more o
> > f a band aid for a greater upstream affect; i could be totally wrong
and oft
> > en am.
> > >>
> > >> The issue is not really safety related, which is my focus. It does
hold s
> > ome aerodynamic qualities there, and the simple solution "is" strengthen
the
> > door frame sufficiently at the time of production.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Read this topic online here:
> > >>
> > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509463#509463
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Attachments:
> > >>
> > >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/eec4e83c_aec3_460b_9585_589875a3317f_2
> > 05.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/eec4e83c_aec3_460b_9585_589875a3317f_205.jpeg
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> > ========
> >
> > ========
> >
> > ========
> >
> > ========
> >
> > ========
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Subject: Europa-List: Re: N460HJ flies again
> > From: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com mailto:chmgarb(at)gmail.com >
> >
> >
> > Great news Will. Let us know how your new tank performs.
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509467#509467
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> > From: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com mailto:chmgarb(at)gmail.com >
> >
> >
> > Interesting thread.
> >
> > My LongEZ has a simple scissor type with over-center locking bar to
keep the canopy
> > open. In the LEZ case the latch only moves 90 were in ours it needs
to go
> > 180 but it should not be too hard to modify.
> >
> > Simple and works well. The canopy doesn't slam down on your head as
it happens
> > on my EU once in awhile (I actually taxy with the door partially closed
held open
> > with a small foam block).
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509469#509469
> >
> >
> > Attachments:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1694_134.jpg
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1691_193.jpg
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1695_131.jpg
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> > From: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com mailto:goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com >
> >
> >
> > The best and simplest solution ever for this type of hatch can be found
on the
> > rear window of the Hillman Imp produced by Rootes Group Scotland 1961-1976;
had
> > a few for 25 years and never had a failure.
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509474#509474
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > From: Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk mailto:alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk >
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> >
> >
> > > On 8 Dec 2022, at 21:04, Area-51
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The best and simplest solution ever for this type of hatch can be
> > found on the rear window of the Hillman Imp produced by Rootes Group
> > Scotland 1961-1976; had a few for 25 years and never had a failure.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Read this topic online here:
> > >
> > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509474#509474
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Anti Door Warping
> > From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com mailto:rparigor(at)hotmail.com >
> >
> >
> > Hi Group
> > Nev's solution with passive pins and CF reinforcement works great.
I made cardboard
> > mock up and was able to get geometry spot on. Had packaging tape on
fuse
> > and used JB KWIK Weld to temporarily hold in exact position. Then once
bonded
> > in perfect position and all is working great we then drilled fuse for
screws.
> > If alignment is not spot on friction is high and it doesn't work.
> > It's hard to get your head around the geometry, but once you do, it
works great.
> > We did install over a decade ago and all is well. The pin and striker
are made
> > out of SS.
> > My build partner Wayne was not convinced with my cardboard mock up.
He called it
> > a muck up! It took him till after completion of pins and striker install
and
> > actual fooling with to be convinced.
> > Ron P.
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509476#509476
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==========
> > pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> > ==========
> > FORUMS -
> > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > WIKI -
> > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > b Site -
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
> > ==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mono Factory Tail Wheel Mounting |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
After flying a circuit to the opposite end of the field for saturday coffee club
followed by a fast taxi back to the hangar this morning, couldn't resist pulling
off the inspection hatch to have a closer look; and yes cable alignment was
confirmed as the reason...
John has also fitted formed pads under the bolt heads pinning TP-9 to the cross
tube; not sure if that is a standard feature in the manual but it would spread
the load evenly across the clamping region.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509482#509482
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/a8f6c187_5b2f_43fc_9047_34b5c931280e_128.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Erich Trombley <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | RE: What did you do with your europa this week - 12/12/22 |
Finally finished up the turbo waste gate servo cable replacement project. I say
project because, while it seem like a straight forward job, the location of
the servo on the tunnel behind the instrument panel makes it a real joy. I really
cant complain too much as the cable was in service for 20 years.
Erich Trombley
N28ET Classic Mono 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: What did you do with your europa this week - 12/12/22 |
Took Erichs lead and replaced my heavy gearbox wearing warpdrive on my 912S with
the E-prop glorieus 8lb all carbon hydraulic (engine oil) constant speed prop.
Manno! What a different aircraft it is now. Takes off and climbs with all 90hp
now like crazy, and is able to do 145nkots at max continuous (7gal/hr) down low.
Previous relaxing cruise settings give about a 5kn increase for the same fuel
flow too. And the new gearbox internals appreciate the effortless instant
start and stop without the previous typical rotax dog-clank. Much smoother
as well. Terrific performance and ~1lb lighter than the warpdrive and classic
spinner.
Minor nits: controller display goes blank intermittently, and the blades have
more play in the hub than id like (Erich reports no play on his, factory says
its normal). Factory is quite supportive tho.
Best transformative investment to-date.
Cheers,
PeteZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mono Factory Tail Wheel Mounting |
| From: | "dmac7" <dmac7(at)outlook.com> |
Hello Area51, thx for sharing. I see the contoured washer's and bolts instead
of pins. I tried something similar ( Rhichard Collins LAA aproved mod ) it uses
nut plates on a sectioned piece of tube inside the torque tube & contoured
washers and bolt's. It seemed a great solution but when I torqued the bolt's
I got slight distortion of the torque tube which caused tightness & binding.
In the end I went with 5/16" pins .0007 larger than hole and installed from the
frezzer, went in tight and are still tight.
That's a interesting mass balance tube beef-up, I never met John but I have heard
he was a smart man, looks good to me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509498#509498
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> |
Does anyone know which gel coat is used at factory on parts like fairings etc.?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509499#509499
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mono Factory Tail Wheel Mounting |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
It wouldnt at all be surprising to find John had dealt with tube crush as well
by fitting a sufficient sleeve inside the cross tube.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509500#509500
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 12/12/22 |
| From: | "Paul M 383" <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> |
Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> What's next??? .... Fly it again!!!
>
> Such joy...
I think you have your headset on backwards - the ear cups tilt back at the top;
they are marked L & R...
HTH,
Paul
G-PLPM
Mono XS 912S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509501#509501
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/cq5damweb10001000_818.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 12/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Sometimes i like the mic on the right side, and sometimes its on the left :)
Depends what the first morning coffee is like :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509502#509502
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Merry Festivas 2022 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Wishing everyone a great Festivas for this year; its been a great 12 months!
Some illustrations to print off and stick on the wall!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509503#509503
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/672bd03d_92b9_46b4_a5e4_1ba158794256_100.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fe7243e8_1549_439c_9206_a2ffa7a3d705_950.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group
Enjoy your Holiday/s and this:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPMK6GRrMCdI&data=05%7C01%7C%7C982397c711204ffcb35208dadca13c4d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638064882319177855%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aTALlDWC251H6JT29aOmRZE%2Bc7tCLDhKLX0x%2F8FFc5o%3D&reserved=0
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509505#509505
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> |
Funny :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509509#509509
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | 2022 List of Contributors (LOC)... |
Dear Listers,
The 2022 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and it's time that I published this year's List of Contributors.
It is the people on this list that directly make these Email Lists and Forums
possible! Their generous Contributions keep the servers and Internet connection
up and running!
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2022 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
https://matronics.com/loc
Thank you again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James <james(at)kingdom.ie> |
| Subject: | 2022 List of Contributors (LOC)... |
Matt,
Does your list of Contributors include all you Fora or just the Forum that I'm
a contributor to?
Btw,
If it's all the Fora, it's very disappointing especially given that you provide
such a great service!
Regards
James McErlain
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2022 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
https://matronics.com/loc
Thank you again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics Email List Digest Operational Change... |
Dear Matronics Listers,
Beginning December 16, 2022, I am planning to modify the way Matronics List Digest
Email is handled. A Digest message will be sent daily ONLY if there is at
least ONE message posted to the Realtime List on the given day. If there are
no messages posted *No Digest will be sent*.
This change is being made to soften the SPAM filtering effect in the Internet at
large on the "Matronics.com" domain. Matronics.com is frequently unceremoniously
blocked because of perceived "SPAM" content. For example, yahoo.com along
with a number of other significant domains has been blocking matronics.com
for a long time.
Hopefully, this operational change will address the issue.
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 12/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
After a bit of fluffing around turning a $19.95 pair of crimping pliers into a
$700 pair the week has ended with the AV-30 beaming forth its presence from the
instrument panel upon the eve of the mighty festival of light! It was a journey
with a few mutterings of demonic praise against the included antiquated Milspec
RS232 connector solution (can we please get rid of this shit standard of
solution, it is 2022 already!!)...
Calibrated and ready for flight testing!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509693#509693
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/01e8c9bb_8c61_4efc_ba1b_fa4d3b12a8cc_874.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/de21773b_116e_4115_9f31_769d28547e3f_637.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/f0954465_2321_40a9_9948_16f76246cf2e_150.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/da11ce53_0cda_4a58_a233_b346667c321d_119.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dfd89367_4339_4499_8ac9_181ef5d666d9_971.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/353a74f9_bf7b_4a40_903c_2ba5a66549a5_149.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/75732040_f34b_4a7d_bc0b_a19891c068a2_136.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/6eb777d7_2b47_4c64_a65b_56f28820fa5c_976.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/a75ff2cc_be45_46d0_8159_452ca04ab2db_168.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
So my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of AC and getting
hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. The BandC inc
ludes and OVP
unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing issue since this was one
of the first produced.
So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionics?
I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly trashed
when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and fly
without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC or
just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
--
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
Curious, what is a bit?
> On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell wrote:
>
> So my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of AC and getting hot.
To be fair newish means 3 years old. The BandC includes and OVP unit. I
am assuming that this is a manufacturing issue since this was one of the first
produced.
>
> So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionics?
>
> I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly trashed when
I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
>
> So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and fly without
OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC or just be
patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
>
>
> --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
4-5 volts and one of the outputs is a bit burnt - heat shrink melted
On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>
> Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
>
> > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell <
> wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BBSo my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of AC
and
> getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. The
BandC includes
> and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing issue since th
is
> was one of the first produced.
> >
> > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionics
?
> >
> > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly trashe
d
> when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
> >
> > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and fl
y
> without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC
or
> just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
> >
> >
> > --
> > William Daniell
> > LONGPORT
> > +1 786 878 0246
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
> --
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
And crackle in the headset
On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>
> Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
>
> > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell <
> wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BBSo my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of AC
and
> getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. The
BandC includes
> and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing issue since th
is
> was one of the first produced.
> >
> > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionics
?
> >
> > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly trashe
d
> when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
> >
> > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and fl
y
> without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC
or
> just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
> >
> >
> > --
> > William Daniell
> > LONGPORT
> > +1 786 878 0246
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
> --
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
Radio Noise
If you are getting radio noise that seems to be alternator-related, you can
use your multimeter to do a quick check of the alternator output voltage.
Set your meter to AC voltage and measure from the main bus to ground while
the engine is running. If you see more than one volt in the AC scale,
suspect a blown diode inside the alternator or possibly bad brushes.
Remember, the alternator is only supposed to output DC voltage. This isn
=99t
a perfect test, but it is quick and easy. A ripple meter is an even better
way to check stator and diode condition, but most amateur builders will not
have one in their toolbox.
On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>
> Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
>
> > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell <
> wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BBSo my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of AC
and
> getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. The
BandC includes
> and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing issue since th
is
> was one of the first produced.
> >
> > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionics
?
> >
> > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly trashe
d
> when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
> >
> > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and fl
y
> without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC
or
> just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
> >
> >
> > --
> > William Daniell
> > LONGPORT
> > +1 786 878 0246
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
> --
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
Ouch!
What did BandC say?
Thx,
PeteZ
> On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:46 AM, William Daniell
wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> 4-5 volts and one of the outputs is a bit burnt - heat shrink melted
>
>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>>
>> Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
>>
>> > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell wrote:
>> >
>> > =EF=BBSo my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of AC
and getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. T
he BandC includes and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing
issue since this was one of the first produced.
>> >
>> > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionics
?
>> >
>> > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly trashe
d when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
>> >
>> > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and fl
y without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC o
r just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > William Daniell
>> > LONGPORT
>> > +1 786 878 0246
>>
>> ==========
>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?Europa-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
> --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
Brushes?
> On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:56 AM, William Daniell
wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Radio Noise
>
> If you are getting radio noise that seems to be alternator-related, you ca
n use your multimeter to do a quick check of the alternator output voltage. S
et your meter to AC voltage and measure from the main bus to ground while th
e engine is running. If you see more than one volt in the AC scale, suspect a
blown diode inside the alternator or possibly bad brushes. Remember, the al
ternator is only supposed to output DC voltage. This isn=99t a perfect
test, but it is quick and easy. A ripple meter is an even better way to che
ck stator and diode condition, but most amateur builders will not have one i
n their toolbox.
>
>
>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>>
>> Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
>>
>> > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell wrote:
>> >
>> > =EF=BBSo my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of AC
and getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. T
he BandC includes and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing
issue since this was one of the first produced.
>> >
>> > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionics
?
>> >
>> > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly trashe
d when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
>> >
>> > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and fl
y without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC o
r just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > William Daniell
>> > LONGPORT
>> > +1 786 878 0246
>>
>> ==========
>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?Europa-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
> --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
Ill be calling them monday - just checked the installation date and it was
Nov 2021so lasted a year. They normally produce good kit so this
must
have some kind of an issue.
On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:55 Pete wrote:
> Ouch!
>
> What did BandC say?
>
> Thx,
> PeteZ
>
> On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:46 AM, William Daniell
> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> 4-5 volts and one of the outputs is a bit burnt - heat shrink melted
>
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>
>>
>> Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
>>
>> > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell <
>> wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > =EF=BBSo my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of A
C and
>> getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. Th
e BandC includes
>> and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing issue since t
his
>> was one of the first produced.
>> >
>> > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionic
s?
>> >
>> > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly
>> trashed when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
>> >
>> > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and
>> fly without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved)
>> BandC or just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying a
ddict)
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > William Daniell
>> > LONGPORT
>> > +1 786 878 0246
>>
>> ==========
>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
>
> --
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
:-(
Fingers x=99d for mine (and my EarthX). I agree BandC have a good rep
.
> On Dec 18, 2022, at 9:17 AM, William Daniell
wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Ill be calling them monday - just checked the installation date and it was
Nov 2021so lasted a year. They normally produce good kit so this m
ust have some kind of an issue.
>
>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:55 Pete wrote:
>> Ouch!
>>
>> What did BandC say?
>>
>> Thx,
>> PeteZ
>>
>>>> On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:46 AM, William Daniell wrote:
>>>>
>>> =EF=BB
>>> 4-5 volts and one of the outputs is a bit burnt - heat shrink melted
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail
.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > =EF=BBSo my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of A
C and getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. T
he BandC includes and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing
issue since this was one of the first produced.
>>>> >
>>>> > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avioni
cs?
>>>> >
>>>> > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly tras
hed when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
>>>> >
>>>> > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and f
ly without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC o
r just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > William Daniell
>>>> > LONGPORT
>>>> > +1 786 878 0246
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Europa-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> William Daniell
>>> LONGPORT
>>> +1 786 878 0246
> --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net> |
Hi! William /All.
When I had G-PTAG Three times on inspection I found that the continuation c
onnectors from the alternator standard Rotax wires where I had a rubberlite
connection assembly taking the electrical power into the panel/regulator I
discovered the lot all heat welded together.
I found that the spade connectors did not have sufficient contact area and
were arcing generating heat from sparking . I didn't find a solution to the
problem which was initiated by Rotax using spade connectors on the power d
elivery spades which only have knife edge contact area . Some form of screw
clamp connectors would generate less heat from arcing , which in turn woul
d remove radio interference and potential for fire.
regards
Bob Harrison .......Ex G-PTAG.
.
> On 18 December 2022 at 13:50 William Daniell wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Radio Noise
>
>
>
> If you are getting radio noise that seems to be alternator-related, y
ou can use your multimeter to do a quick check of the alternator output vol
tage. Set your meter to AC voltage and measure from the main bus to ground
while the engine is running. If you see more than one volt in the AC scale,
suspect a blown diode inside the alternator or possibly bad brushes. Remem
ber, the alternator is only supposed to output DC voltage. This isn
=99t a perfect test, but it is quick and easy. A ripple meter is an even be
tter way to check stator and diode condition, but most amateur builders wil
l not have one in their toolbox.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>
mailto:peterz(at)zutrasoft.com >
> >
> > Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
> >
> > > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell wrote:
> > >
> > > So my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of A
C and getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old.
The BandC includes and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufactur
ing issue since this was one of the first produced.
> > >
> > > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensiv
e avionics?
> > >
> > > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupi
dly trashed when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
> > >
> > > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regula
tor and fly without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improv
ed) BandC or just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying
addict)
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > William Daniell
> > > LONGPORT
> > > +1 786 878 0246
> >
> > ==========
> > pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> > ==========
> > FORUMS -
> > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > WIKI -
> > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > b Site -
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contrib
ution
> > ==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net> |
I hear what you say but the nature of spade connectors utilise a knife (mal
e) connector into a female receptor and they can spark.....I've seen them a
rcing .....put your head in the sand and ignore it at your peril. The reas
on I had three examples of molten connector assembly speaks volumes, not wi
thstanding the original "posting on subject" reported the same issue. In
test conditions the connectors may be adequately rated but subject them to
vibration and that rating is obviously open to question, in other words "th
ey are shit".
regards.
Bob Harrison ex G-PTAG.
regards
Bob Harrison
> On 19 December 2022 at 08:04 Alan Burrill wrote:
>
> Spade connectors of that size are rated to 10 amp and 300v according
to the R/S-Components specification sheet.
>
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> > > On 18 Dec 2022, at 21:53, Bob Harrison wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > Hi! William /All.
> >
> > When I had G-PTAG Three times on inspection I found that the co
ntinuation connectors from the alternator standard Rotax wires where I had
a rubberlite connection assembly taking the electrical power into the panel
/regulator I discovered the lot all heat welded together.
> >
> > I found that the spade connectors did not have sufficient conta
ct area and were arcing generating heat from sparking . I didn't find a sol
ution to the problem which was initiated by Rotax using spade connectors on
the power delivery spades which only have knife edge contact area . Some f
orm of screw clamp connectors would generate less heat from arcing , which
in turn would remove radio interference and potential for fire.
> >
> > regards
> >
> >
> > Bob Harrison .......Ex G-PTAG.
> >
> > .
> >
> > > > > On 18 December 2022 at 13:50 William Daniell wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Radio Noise
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If you are getting radio noise that seems to be alternato
r-related, you can use your multimeter to do a quick check of the alternato
r output voltage. Set your meter to AC voltage and measure from the main bu
s to ground while the engine is running. If you see more than one volt in t
he AC scale, suspect a blown diode inside the alternator or possibly bad br
ushes. Remember, the alternator is only supposed to output DC voltage. This
isn=99t a perfect test, but it is quick and easy. A ripple meter is
an even better way to check stator and diode condition, but most amateur bu
ilders will not have one in their toolbox.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
> > >
rz(at)zutrasoft.com mailto:peterz(at)zutrasoft.com >
> > > >
> > > > Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
> > > >
> > > > > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > So my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputtin
g a bit of AC and getting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3
years old. The BandC includes and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is
a manufacturing issue since this was one of the first produced.
> > > > >
> > > > > So my question is who has overvoltage protection
AND expensive avionics?
> > > > >
> > > > > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc w
hich I stupidly trashed when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it bac
k in.
> > > > >
> > > > > So should I put in my old but (fully functional)
rotax regulator and fly without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hope
fully improved) BandC or just be patient.? (My name is Will and
Im a flying addict)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > William Daniell
> > > > > LONGPORT
> > > > > +1 786 878 0246
> > > >
> > > > ==========
> > > > pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http:
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> > > > ==========
> > > > FORUMS -
> > > > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.
com
> > > > ==========
> > > > WIKI -
> > > > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> > > > ==========
> > > > b Site -
> > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > > > ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics
.com/contribution
> > > > ==========
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > William Daniell
> > > LONGPORT
> > > +1 786 878 0246
> > >
> > > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
and why assume that the BandC is delivered with plated (i can
=99t remember with what) replacement connectors in an attempt to carry more c
urrent without overheating, per their instructions.
I have no idea if they are effective, but mine are not (yet?) charring fwiw.
PeteZ
> On Dec 19, 2022, at 3:12 AM, Alan Burrill wrote:
>
> =EF=BBSpade connectors of that size are rated to 10 amp and 300v accord
ing to the R/S-Components specification sheet.
>
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>>> On 18 Dec 2022, at 21:53, Bob Harrison wrote:
>>>
>> =EF=BB
>> Hi! William /All.
>>
>> When I had G-PTAG Three times on inspection I found that the continuation
connectors from the alternator standard Rotax wires where I had a rubberlit
e connection assembly taking the electrical power into the panel/regulator I
discovered the lot all heat welded together.
>>
>> I found that the spade connectors did not have sufficient contact area an
d were arcing generating heat from sparking . I didn't find a solution to th
e problem which was initiated by Rotax using spade connectors on the power d
elivery spades which only have knife edge contact area . Some form of screw c
lamp connectors would generate less heat from arcing , which in turn would r
emove radio interference and potential for fire.
>>
>> regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Harrison .......Ex G-PTAG.
>>
>> .
>>
>>> On 18 December 2022 at 13:50 William Daniell wrote:
>>>
>>> Radio Noise
>>>
>>> If you are getting radio noise that seems to be alternator-related, you c
an use your multimeter to do a quick check of the alternator output voltage.
Set your meter to AC voltage and measure from the main bus to ground while t
he engine is running. If you see more than one volt in the AC scale, suspect
a blown diode inside the alternator or possibly bad brushes. Remember, the a
lternator is only supposed to output DC voltage. This isn=99t a perfec
t test, but it is quick and easy. A ripple meter is an even better way to ch
eck stator and diode condition, but most amateur builders will not have one i
n their toolbox.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 08:36 Pete wrote:
>>>
>>> Curious, what is =9Ca bit=9D?
>>>
>>> > On Dec 18, 2022, at 8:28 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.
com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > So my snazzy BandC voltage regulator is outputting a bit of AC and get
ting hot. To be fair =9Cnewish=9D means 3 years old. The BandC
includes and OVP unit. I am assuming that this is a manufacturing issue s
ince this was one of the first produced.
>>> >
>>> > So my question is who has overvoltage protection AND expensive avionic
s?
>>> >
>>> > I had an old style OVP with a relay/crowbar etc which I stupidly trash
ed when I got my new BandC so I cant simply put it back in.
>>> >
>>> > So should I put in my old but (fully functional) rotax regulator and f
ly without OVP pending the arrival of my new (and hopefully improved) BandC o
r just be patient.? (My name is Will and Im a flying addict)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > William Daniell
>>> > LONGPORT
>>> > +1 786 878 0246
>>>
>>> ===========
>>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List
>>> ===========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ===========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ===========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>>> ===========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> William Daniell
>>> LONGPORT
>>> +1 786 878 0246
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Monoman" <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk> |
After a little research I think I now know what this thread is about and have a
couple of questions.
1. Is this a straight replacement for the Ducati units?
2. Does the ducati unit contain OVP?
3. I have just fitted an Earth X battery (but not yet run the engine), will this
charge OK using the original Ducati regulator?
Sorry for my electrical ignorance.
Cheers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509717#509717
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Zut <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
1 - yip!
2- Nope
3 - it may? but the BandC has an adjustable/settable output for the higher
requirements of the EarthX
-PeteZ
On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 5:55 AM Monoman wrote:
>
> After a little research I think I now know what this thread is about and
> have a couple of questions.
> 1. Is this a straight replacement for the Ducati units?
> 2. Does the ducati unit contain OVP?
> 3. I have just fitted an Earth X battery (but not yet run the engine),
> will this charge OK using the original Ducati regulator?
> Sorry for my electrical ignorance.
>
> Cheers
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
Ducati regulators vary. My last regulator's output was 13.79v, which was not enough
even for a Red Top battery let alone Lithium. Fairly easily fixed though.
Duncan mcF.
> On 19 December 2022 at 11:35 Alan Burrill wrote:
>
> I have an EarthX and the Rotax Ducati Regulator. It charges the EarthX and
not had any problems.
>
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > > On 19 Dec 2022, at 11:23, Pete Zut wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > 1 - yip!
> > 2- Nope
> > 3 - it may? but the BandC has an adjustable/settable output for the
higher requirements of the EarthX
> >
> > -PeteZ
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 5:55 AM Monoman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > After a little research I think I now know what this thread is
about and have a couple of questions.
> > > 1. Is this a straight replacement for the Ducati units?
> > > 2. Does the ducati unit contain OVP?
> > > 3. I have just fitted an Earth X battery (but not yet run the
engine), will this charge OK using the original Ducati regulator?
> > > Sorry for my electrical ignorance.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Monoman" <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk> |
Thanks chaps for the replies I now have a better grip and at least know that it
shouldn't blow up upon engine start.
Duncan, you mention that a low charge rate was easily fixed, can you let me know
how?
Thanks
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509721#509721
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
Lots of references to this in Forum the archives and elsewhere. e.g. Europa forum
on Sun May 02, 2021 3:31 pm
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16776904&highlight=shottky
Duncan McF.
> On 19 December 2022 at 13:16 Monoman wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks chaps for the replies I now have a better grip and at least know that
it shouldn't blow up upon engine start.
> Duncan, you mention that a low charge rate was easily fixed, can you let me know
how?
> Thanks
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509721#509721
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
The bandc charges as 14.4 volts from the box but is adjustable and does
have OVP built in.
Plugs straight in.
It's a lot nicer looking than the rotax item but costs USD300....
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 6:24 AM Pete Zut wrote:
> 1 - yip!
> 2- Nope
> 3 - it may? but the BandC has an adjustable/settable output for the
> higher requirements of the EarthX
>
> -PeteZ
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 5:55 AM Monoman wrote:
>
>>
>> After a little research I think I now know what this thread is about and
>> have a couple of questions.
>> 1. Is this a straight replacement for the Ducati units?
>> 2. Does the ducati unit contain OVP?
>> 3. I have just fitted an Earth X battery (but not yet run the engine),
>> will this charge OK using the original Ducati regulator?
>> Sorry for my electrical ignorance.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mansfield <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> |
The cited reference only offers replacement options; is there any way of fi
xing a duff regulator? ... e.g. yours that had a low output: "last regulato
r's output was 13.79v" - how was that "easily fixed"?
Paul
G-PLPM
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> On Behalf Of D McFadyean
Sent: 19 December 2022 14:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: OVP
--> >
Lots of references to this in Forum the archives and elsewhere. e.g. Europa
forum on Sun May 02, 2021 3:31 pm
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16776904
Duncan McF.
> On 19 December 2022 at 13:16 Monoman > wrote:
>
>
ke(at)nyumba.co.uk>>
>
> Thanks chaps for the replies I now have a better grip and at least know t
hat it shouldn't blow up upon engine start.
> Duncan, you mention that a low charge rate was easily fixed, can you let
me know how?
> Thanks
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509721
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net> |
Will contacted me directly and here are my replies to several posts above.
The common failure for Ducatti are the internal diodes. Ducatti uses a full wave
rectifier circuit which has two SCR (controlled diodes) and two conventional
diodes. The mechanical construction fails on the conventional diodes. Electrically,
the diodes are connected to terminal G and terminal B so you can put external
diodes to substitute or replace the faulty internal ones. The original
diodes are rated at 1200 v and 45 A. You must also mount them on a heat sink.
If you use diodes, the heat sink will be at +12V. A better solution is by using
a bridge rectifier on a heat sink so the heat sink is electrically isolated.
The bridge rectifier is 36MB120A (Newark Electronics PN 48F1234) and heatsink
is Wakefield 403K (Newark Electronics PN 58F505). The rectifier is wired so
that the two yellow wires going to G on the Ducatti also go to the two inputs
on the rectifier (AC1 and AC2) and the wire coming from B on the Ducatti (output
voltage) is also connected to + on the rectifier. The terminal of the rectifier
is not connected to anything. Wiring diagram is attached. The same diagram
shows the diode for adjusting voltage and the crowbar OVP.
There was also a question about adjusting the voltage when using a Ducatti. To
make the output voltage higher, just insert a diode in the C lead which is the
voltage sense lead. That will make the regulator think the voltage is .5 volt
too low, and adjust cause the output to raise .5 volt. I have this in place to
get 14.2 for my EarthX. A 1N4001 will work fine.
Finally, my overvolt protection is a crowbar style purchased from B&C. I have a
relay that connects the regulator output to the aircraft buss. The crowbar is
across the coil of that relay, so if it trips, it will cause the relay to drop
out.
There was a guy on the RV12 list that made a robust copy of the Ducatti regulator
long before B&C produced theirs. I purchased the circuit board from him and
built my own. It works good and it will output 25 A all day long!
Jim Butcher
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
Fixed (as per the cited reference) by placing a diode in the sense wire. Th
e regulator voltage is thereby increased by the voltage drop across the dio
de; select an ordinary diode or Schottky depending how much voltage increas
e is needed.
Duncan McF.
> On 19 December 2022 at 16:38 Paul Mansfield wro
te:
>
>
> The cited reference only offers replacement options; is there any way
of fixing a duff regulator? e.g. yours that had a low output:
=9Clast regulator's output was 13.79v=9D =93 how was that
=9Ceasily fixed=9D?
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> G-PLPM
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-serve
r(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of D McFadyean
> Sent: 19 December 2022 14:58
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: OVP
>
>
>
>
> -->
>
>
>
> Lots of references to this in Forum the archives and elsewhere. e.g.
Europa forum on Sun May 02, 2021 3:31 pm
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16776904
>
>
>
> Duncan McF.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 19 December 2022 at 13:16 Monoman @nyumba.co.uk > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
lto:mike(at)nyumba.co.uk >
>
> >
>
> > Thanks chaps for the replies I now have a better grip and at least
know that it shouldn't blow up upon engine start.
>
> > Duncan, you mention that a low charge rate was easily fixed, can yo
u let me know how?
>
> > Thanks
>
> > Mike
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509721
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel AUVRAY <mau05160(at)gmail.com> |
I follow many discus on the Rotax regulator, in the past I use 3x912
engines and I have troubles with Ducati Reg. I install Ektik regulator and
4 years ago he is broken.
After many investigations on the web I discover on the "Aero Hesbayes web
site" the regulator as follow:
P/N Shindengen Mosfet FH020AA regulators (official distributor)
I looked for a rectifier with draconian criteria and without any compromise
:
- Good regulation (super stable voltage)
- Cheap
- Reliable
- Which does not heat up too much (no waste of energy)
- Easy to mount
- Light
I have install this reg since now 4 years with total satisfaction.
Michel
Builder 098 and 145
Le lun. 19 d=C3=A9c. 2022 =C3- 17:41, Paul Mansfield a
=C3=A9crit :
> The cited reference only offers replacement options; is there any way of
> fixing a duff regulator? e.g. yours that had a low output:
=9Clast
> regulator's output was 13.79v=9D =93 how was that =9Cea
sily fixed=9D?
>
>
> Paul
>
> G-PLPM
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <
> owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of D McFadyean
> Sent: 19 December 2022 14:58
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: OVP
>
>
> -->
>
>
> Lots of references to this in Forum the archives and elsewhere. e.g.
> Europa forum on Sun May 02, 2021 3:31 pm
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16776904
>
>
> Duncan McF.
>
>
> > On 19 December 2022 at 13:16 Monoman wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
> > Thanks chaps for the replies I now have a better grip and at least know
> that it shouldn't blow up upon engine start.
>
> > Duncan, you mention that a low charge rate was easily fixed, can you le
t
> me know how?
>
> > Thanks
>
> > Mike
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509721
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group We know that poor connections cause high resistance. Push a lot of current
through a high resistance joint and it makes heat. As far as Rotax Faston
connectors, many of the old engines have really crappy Fastons for the job at
hand. Probably just plated copper. There are better Fastons made out of Phosphor
Bronze. I urged B+C to make it known in the install manual, don't know if
they did or not. Anyway I think they sell them as an install kit and hope they
are including with the Regulator. At least the high current 2 yellow wires should
have them installed. I bent mine to give a little extra tension and dabbed
on a little CRC 2-26 (ACF-50 works too). I forget the name of the I think German
Regulato5r Mfg, but it would not honor warranty unless Phospher Bronze Fastons
were used. Here's B&C link to their offering:
https://bandc.com/product/fk514-3-field-kit-avc1/
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509751#509751
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Group FWIW as far as AVC1 goes, I used both grounds as suggested by B&C. Ron
P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509752#509752
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James <james(at)kingdom.ie> |
Ron,
I would not use ACF-50 as a conductor for the following reason. I also fly
a Trike with a Rotax 582 & a couple of years ago I removed the starter moto
r to check the wear on the brushes. The starter housing (which is the negat
ive connection) is mounted externally on the side of the engine using 2 lar
ge Allen Key headed bolts. As I've been using ACF-50 (bought in 4 Litres) f
or approx 10 years I always use it on nuts & bolts especially when I'm refi
tting them. On this occasion I dipped my 2 starter mounting bolts in the AC
F-50 & duly screwed them in until hand tight & then fully tighten them with
the Allen Key tool. I did an engine test start & run & all was perfect. A
week or 2 later I had to fly to my Inspector's airfield for the aircraft's
Annual Inspection. I started my Trike, took off, flew the 1.5hr trip, lande
d & shut down the engine. After the Inspection process was completed, I tri
ed to start my engine for the homeward flight but the prop wouldn't even tr
y to turn & neither would it with the assistance of battery jump leads from
a running car engine! We eventually got the engine going by hand turning t
he prop. On the homeward journey I dropped into a friend's airfield for a c
hat & cup of tea. On departure I had the same starting problem again & as b
efore, hand proping worked!
On arrival home I removed the starter & found that all of the starter's mou
nting base was coated in ACF-50. I dried all of it off along with the matin
g engine area & the 2 mounting bolts. The engine started on the first turn
of the ignition key & hasn't failed to start in the 2 years since.
Lesson learned = don't put ACF-50 anywhere near an electrical connection!
Sent from Outlook for Android
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of rparigoris
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2022 8:53:45 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: OVP
Hi Group FWIW as far as AVC1 goes, I used both grounds as suggested by B&C
. Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509752#509752
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel sender and Gauge free to a good home |
I have a Europa fuel sender and gauge free to a good home. I have decided
to rely on the tube.
I also have about a 100 quality M8 bolts that I will never use. Why did I
buy them? Not a clue. Also free if you want a handful.
I am trying to clear out some of the stuff I have been hoarding and
would much rather donate them than trash them.
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Flew it again!!!
Check flight for the new AV-30... Love it, it's an awesome bit of kit... Hate the
connector on the back, but the gauge itself is awesome...
Ready to fly it again!!!
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hitchflight" <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com> |
Best wishes to all, particularly those in North America. One heck of a weather
cyclone you are experiencing! Stay Safe.
Bob Hitchcock
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "goff" <goffmoore(at)aol.com> |
Merry Christmas to all...
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Home alone... 6.00am daily inspection for a 7.00am ramp; no clouds, no wind, no
aircraft, no parachutes, no people... lazy departure off 23 with an early low
level turn to the left toward the eastern most point... trundled around the
bubble at 75kt for an hour; best 6 litres of hydrocarbon burnt all week!
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Interesting. Is 75kts your Vy? I find my Vy (Classic wings, ULS) slightly higher
to the extent that 6litres/hr is only possible closer to 83knts.
Duncan McF.
> On 25 December 2022 at 13:53 Area-51 wrote:
>
>
>
> Home alone... 6.00am daily inspection for a 7.00am ramp; no clouds, no wind,
no aircraft, no parachutes, no people... lazy departure off 23 with an early
low level turn to the left toward the eastern most point... trundled around the
bubble at 75kt for an hour; best 6 litres of hydrocarbon burnt all week!
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509782#509782
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/22a7d9d6_9a00_4143_bff5_a1ed7229a6de_162.jpeg
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Neither Vy or Vx...
75kt is my loiter speed in calm air; flaps and undercarriage retracted.. setting
the rpm at 3900 the aircraft will tootle along happily once trimmed; at 3800rpm
it will tootle along at 70kt and is just starting to feel a little bit mushy
but still quite stable.
80kt on climb out at 5000rpm returns 1600fpm at 500' AMSL and seems to be the Vy
so far...
Still need to do some upper air work to see what Vx actually is; power on stall
is 53kt.
The flaps are about 1deg extended when retracted, and the ailerons are about 1/2deg
positive at neutral; so this would affecting the flight characteristics of
the wing at various velocities. Not sure if John had intentionally set things
up like that; he had a valid reason for all his mods when building.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509785#509785
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Careful not to wear and pocket the gearbox dogs with such a lightly loaded prop
and low rpm.
Cheers PeteZ
C-GNPZ
> On Dec 25, 2022, at 5:30 PM, Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> Neither Vy or Vx...
>
> 75kt is my loiter speed in calm air; flaps and undercarriage retracted.. setting
the rpm at 3900 the aircraft will tootle along happily once trimmed; at 3800rpm
it will tootle along at 70kt and is just starting to feel a little bit mushy
but still quite stable.
>
> 80kt on climb out at 5000rpm returns 1600fpm at 500' AMSL and seems to be the
Vy so far...
>
> Still need to do some upper air work to see what Vx actually is; power on stall
is 53kt.
>
> The flaps are about 1deg extended when retracted, and the ailerons are about
1/2deg positive at neutral; so this would affecting the flight characteristics
of the wing at various velocities. Not sure if John had intentionally set things
up like that; he had a valid reason for all his mods when building.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509785#509785
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks and noted Peter...
After spending an entire lifetime pulling stuff apart and analysing cause and effect
of mechanical component failure i'm totally unconvinced on this argument
often presented, simply because the propeller is operating within a state of
constant load resistance leaving both the drive and driven gears no opportunity
for backlash while in this state; if there was backlash occurring that would
be a serious design concern and source of vibration; at my level of experience
my ears and bum would let me know as soon as this occurs, and neither have yet
told me otherwise (not in this individual aircraft; can't say the same for
some other 912 units flown in)... the output shaft is also operating in a state
of harmonic balance thanks to the fitted Balance Master... the carburettor mixtures
and carburettors are in perfect balance... the engine is a low compression
setup... there is no aspect about the power-plant's current operational spectrum
that gives any credibility to the debate... If the engine is not singing
then its out of tune, set at the wrong rpm frequency, or both... under constant
load there are a limited number of factors that can cause gear failure -
insufficient fit-for-purpose material specification, sustained overheating beyond
safe operating temperature range and allowable time of said material, sustained
mechanical vibration at specific alternate frequencies, excessive mechanical
impact of sliding contact surfaces due to backlash (there will always be
an element of backlash required for component heat expansion), ingress of foreign
matter such as swarf other particles dust sand etc.
It is not expected many people in any mechanical field will share my experience,
and am still often left amazed but accepting at what level of damage the majority
of human beings can achieve... could fill a text book with field stories,
but thats about all I have to say on the matter today.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509788#509788
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Not to argue, i will just leave this link to explain my concerns. 4cyl 4stro
kes are murder on gearboxes driving under damped (lightly loaded) air propel
lers with their reverse torque pulses. The site has other pages discussing a
s well fwiw.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/torsional_excitation_from_pi
ston_engines.htm
Cheers,
PeteZ :)
> On Dec 25, 2022, at 8:09 PM, Area-51 wrote
:
>
@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks and noted Peter...
>
> After spending an entire lifetime pulling stuff apart and analysing cause a
nd effect of mechanical component failure i'm totally unconvinced on this ar
gument often presented, simply because the propeller is operating within a s
tate of constant load resistance leaving both the drive and driven gears no o
pportunity for backlash while in this state; if there was backlash occurring
that would be a serious design concern and source of vibration; at my level
of experience my ears and bum would let me know as soon as this occurs, and
neither have yet told me otherwise (not in this individual aircraft; can't s
ay the same for some other 912 units flown in)... the output shaft is also o
perating in a state of harmonic balance thanks to the fitted Balance Master.
.. the carburettor mixtures and carburettors are in perfect balance... the e
ngine is a low compression setup... there is no aspect about the power-plant
's current operational spectrum that gives any credibility to the debate... !
> If the engine is not singing then its out of tune, set at the wrong rpm fr
equency, or both... under constant load there are a limited number of factor
s that can cause gear failure - insufficient fit-for-purpose material specif
ication, sustained overheating beyond safe operating temperature range and a
llowable time of said material, sustained mechanical vibration at specific a
lternate frequencies, excessive mechanical impact of sliding contact surface
s due to backlash (there will always be an element of backlash required for c
omponent heat expansion), ingress of foreign matter such as swarf other part
icles dust sand etc.
>
> It is not expected many people in any mechanical field will share my exper
ience, and am still often left amazed but accepting at what level of damage t
he majority of human beings can achieve... could fill a text book with fiel
d stories, but thats about all I have to say on the matter today.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509788#509788
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Totally agree with the article... give me 12 or 36 cylinders any day of the week...
and this article is exactly why engine rpm frequency is mentioned in my above
commentary.
In simple terms the enlightened engine operator is looking for the rpm load setting
factor that offsets these cylinder firing pulses against the combined resistance
load (torque requested) and centrifugal momentum inertia of all internal
moving components whether 1 or 36 cylinder format... there may generally be
three or even four rpm points where this will occur for each individual engine
and these points are fugitive based upon the changeable factors of fuel, air,
temperature, and mechanical clearances between moving components. This why the
enlightened engine operator is able to quickly discern an out-of-tune state
on a perfectly turned and balanced engine.
This is why, from experience and understanding, extended running of the engine
at 4800rpm, 3800rpm, 1600rpm, 800rpm is not any concern for me. These are the
harmonic frequencies of this individual engine for its set tuned state and minimal
stressed points. If the engine is not singing the above factors are not synchronised;
things will simply wear out sooner...
If i want to set the above engine for 5200rpm then it will need further bench work
on the breathing because at 5200rpm it aint singing at all.
A good place to start for anybody wanting to understand the totality of internal
combustion engines is "Tuning For Speed" - Phil Irving, anybody that says they
know stuff doesnt really know stuff unless they know this book cover to cover.
Its one of my loaded questions when sourcing a suitable engine builder that
i have no prior experience dealing with.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509790#509790
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Awesome!!
Unfortunately i was not lucky enough to know whether i ever did meet him personally...
i know of a few people that did though. He was a very unique person...
while i was playing with vintage race bikes Marc told me a story about an outing
with his Vincent. Phil Irving walked up to Marc's pristine example unannounced,
"what a lovely looking bike", then spun the brake and clutch lever around
on the handlebars to Marc's horror... "WTF" from Marc's mouth is a polite description...
Phil didn't care. He just turned to Marc and said "that's why the
handlebars are painted and not chromed"... long story short an apology was quickly
present when he learned he was about to smack Irving in the head; Marc
shut up and learned a lot; they became good friends...
Les was a very unassuming humble guy... inside his shed though were the rarest
of rare ferrari, and other stuff. they were sent to him from all over the world
to restore.. Phil taught Les how to build ferrari engines to run really well...
I would take Les a bag of fresh hand picked oranges each winter and we would
talk about engines and suspension.
My father handed down a first edition copy to me; i still have it... to this day
i have not yet come across a book that transcends Irving's bible.
Phil had the ability to explain something in just a couple of sentences when everyone
else delivered a lecture or novel that was lost in the wind.
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509797#509797
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Area 51
2 Questions below:
I'm having a bit of a hard time following your thinking?:
"I am at a total loss as to why rotax have employed a slip dog coupling in the
912 gearbox without torque pulse damper springs"
I'm not too familiar to the set up without slipper clutch, but with the slipper
clutch you in fact have a torque pulse damper spring in the form of Belville
washers. When cylinder fires, it "winds up the spring" In reality it is not winding
up, it is flattening the Belville washer that is in fact a spring which
absorbs some power. Then when no cylinder is not firing, the spring unwinds and
puts some power back to the prop shaft.
1) Please explain how you would better make a torque pulse damper? I'm pretty certain
if all that would be needed is a compression spring plate as is often seen
in an automotive clutch that Rotax would have used that instead of a high
parts count dog solution. A propeller spinning is a pretty darn good gyroscope,
it really doesn't want to accelerate or deaccelerate.
As far as operating at 3,800RPM, I have been interested in the loitering power
setting. I have asked several folks in the know and all thought it is not an issue
for the gearbox. That said it is an issue if you are running on 100LL as
even with TCP or Alcor, you are not making enough power to get rid of the as much
lead as compared to pushing more BTUs through the engine. On Mogas or no lead
think things will be fine.
2) Rotax want's oil temperature to get to boiling during flight. I thyink at sender
190F will give hot oil 212F. I'm pretty sure loitering flight will not allow
oil temp to get to 212. My question is why do you need to get to 212F during
flight? The real reason I ask is on most of my cars rarely do I see 212F and
haven't ever seen anything happen because of it.
Thx.
Ron P.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
The washers are there to preload the slipper clutch.
Go read the book...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509799#509799
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Area 51
I just had a look at the 912 with out slipper clutch and it too has Belville washers.
Yes it's true that you preload the Belville washers with slipper clutch, but I
think you are missing the fact that they are also the torque pulse damper springs.
The reason you need to preload the Belville washers with the slipper clutch
is they are also used to keep the slipper clutch from slipping.
Have a look at the parts manual and look at the non slipper clutch gearbox and
low and behold they have a set of Belville washers.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509800#509800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Uh, actually, no. The slipper clutch is set by screwing the clutch assembly tight,
and is much higher breakaway torque than the dogs.
The main Bellevilles set the friction in the dog, as set by the shims and measured
using the crank lock and 20ft-lb minimum prop rotation friction test (on the
flats).
As for the low rpm running, the dogs get pocketed and worn when the underloaded
prop mass resonates with the engines reverse torque pulses. Once in resonance
the positive feedback drives the system (like aero flutter of control surfaces).
Best way to avoid any resonance and messing up the dogs is to avoid the resonant
frequencies (dependent upon prop rotating inertia), and loading up the prop
with power.
Fwiw,
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 4:55 PM, Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> The washers are there to preload the slipper clutch.
>
> Go read the book...
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509799#509799
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Fwiw, I was told by the rotax folks that the slipper clutch was added to avoid
spline damage during start-up/shut-down with heavy (high rotational mass) propellors.
(Not prop strikes as commonly thought)
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 4:33 PM, rparigoris wrote:
>
>
> Hi Area 51
> 2 Questions below:
> I'm having a bit of a hard time following your thinking?:
> "I am at a total loss as to why rotax have employed a slip dog coupling in the
912 gearbox without torque pulse damper springs"
> I'm not too familiar to the set up without slipper clutch, but with the slipper
clutch you in fact have a torque pulse damper spring in the form of Belville
washers. When cylinder fires, it "winds up the spring" In reality it is not
winding up, it is flattening the Belville washer that is in fact a spring which
absorbs some power. Then when no cylinder is not firing, the spring unwinds
and puts some power back to the prop shaft.
>
> 1) Please explain how you would better make a torque pulse damper? I'm pretty
certain if all that would be needed is a compression spring plate as is often
seen in an automotive clutch that Rotax would have used that instead of a high
parts count dog solution. A propeller spinning is a pretty darn good gyroscope,
it really doesn't want to accelerate or deaccelerate.
>
>
> As far as operating at 3,800RPM, I have been interested in the loitering power
setting. I have asked several folks in the know and all thought it is not an
issue for the gearbox. That said it is an issue if you are running on 100LL as
even with TCP or Alcor, you are not making enough power to get rid of the as
much lead as compared to pushing more BTUs through the engine. On Mogas or no
lead think things will be fine.
>
> 2) Rotax want's oil temperature to get to boiling during flight. I thyink at
sender 190F will give hot oil 212F. I'm pretty sure loitering flight will not
allow oil temp to get to 212. My question is why do you need to get to 212F during
flight? The real reason I ask is on most of my cars rarely do I see 212F
and haven't ever seen anything happen because of it.
> Thx.
> Ron P.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509798#509798
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Which spring set are we talking about here? set 3 or 4? image attached...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509803#509803
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c657a9f9_fcec_472e_af43_bcddb3aedfb4_150.jpeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Set 3 is for the dogs to set the (resonance damping) friction and to define the
ramp torque and is in-play in flight. Set 4 is for the overload clutch to set
its breakaway torque and never comes into play in flight, but rather only when
the dogs have hit their compression stops to save the splines from deformation
(which can occur with heavy props at start and stop or kickback).
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 6:47 PM, Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> Which spring set are we talking about here? set 3 or 4? image attached...
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509803#509803
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/c657a9f9_fcec_472e_af43_bcddb3aedfb4_150.jpeg
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Yes that makes sense of the madness employed... And yes the dogs will wear out
at some stage one way or the other; or cone spring will crack and fail just like
in a mercedes transmission...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509805#509805
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Always trying to tame the 4bangars resonance issues, rotax have changed to a torsion
bar concept in the new 915.
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 7:55 PM, Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> Yes that makes sense of the madness employed... And yes the dogs will wear out
at some stage one way or the other; or cone spring will crack and fail just
like in a mercedes transmission...
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509805#509805
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
The new 915 box uses two clutch packs and the the torsion shaft instead of t
he expensive (2200USD) dog gear assembly. Thanks to certification sadly we
=99ll never see this new solution applied to the 912S.
https://www.rotax-owner.com/manuals/MMH_915i_A_Series_ED0_R0.pdf
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 8:06 PM, Pete wrote:
>
> =EF=BBAlways trying to tame the 4bangars resonance issues, rotax have c
hanged to a torsion bar concept in the new 915.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
>> On Dec 26, 2022, at 7:55 PM, Area-51 wrot
e:
>>
l(at)gmail.com>
>>
>> Yes that makes sense of the madness employed... And yes the dogs will wea
r out at some stage one way or the other; or cone spring will crack and fail
just like in a mercedes transmission... =F0=9F=91=8D =F0=9F=A4=A9
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509805#509805
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
So does a $35 donut...
I like donuts
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509808#509808
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
https://pdfcoffee.com/tuning-for-speed-p-e-irving-1965-tuning-racing-motorcycle-engines-2-pdf-free.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509809#509809
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "JohnFrance" <77alembert(at)gmail.com> |
I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diesel engine.
When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing totalled
the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didnt use them in the gearbox.
A very interesting thread this one all the same.
--------
Europa mono Nr 192
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James <james(at)kingdom.ie> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
I have a Mainair Blade microlight (ultralight) Ireland which uses a Blue To
p Rotax 582 manufactured in 2002. It has a Doughnut as did the Grey Top mod
el which saved my gearbox & engine during a prop strike in 2006!
James
Sent from Outlook for Android
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of JohnFrance <77alembert(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 1:19:12 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/1
2/22
I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diesel
engine. When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing to
talled the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didn=99t use them in the g
earbox.
A very interesting thread this one all the same.
--------
Europa mono Nr 192
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Indeed, once resonance does take hold, the energy which must be dissipated quickly
destroys rubber donuts. This is the reason that rotax only got away with them
on two strokes which have trivial reverse torque pulses. Automotive applications
are a different paradigm altogether as the ground presents an infinite
damping load reducing the frequencies involved vs a free air propellor although
the analogue does still exist: the situation when a student manual transmission
driver pops the clutch at idle and the car lurches back and forth with increasing
amplitude until it either stalls (a good thing) or something breaks.
In aircraft applications, the lightly loaded and under damped (in air) propellor
mass can quickly increase the positive feedback resonance amplitude and thus
power in the system until things break or the mechanical wear (dogs for example)
becomes destructive (creating exasperating dog-pockets for example). All at
low power input settings by definition. Give full power and the air provides
sufficient damping load to avoid positive feedback resonance - and why this phenomenon
is not seen in marine drives (water is a terrific damping medium). The
very efficient slippery europa design feeds into this problem vs those draggy
bush plane applications.
Auto conversions with simplistic rubber dampers (read: viking) are inadequate imhoand
time will tell as fleet time builds. The sprague solution in the yamaha/teal
world are already seeing excessive low time field failures - as predicted
by that website i had quoted.
Fwiw,
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 8:27 AM, JohnFrance <77alembert(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
> I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diesel engine.
When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing totalled
the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didnt use them in the gearbox.
> A very interesting thread this one all the same.
>
> --------
> Europa mono Nr 192
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Indeed 2strokes are much more benign wrt reverse torque pulses vs the hellis
h 4cyl 4stroke, on which =9Caircraft gearboxes are hard=9D. :)
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 9:53 AM, James wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> I have a Mainair Blade microlight (ultralight) Ireland which uses a Blue T
op Rotax 582 manufactured in 2002. It has a Doughnut as did the Grey Top mod
el which saved my gearbox & engine during a prop strike in 2006!
>
> James
>
>
> Sent from Outlook for Android
> From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@mat
ronics.com> on behalf of JohnFrance <77alembert(at)gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 1:19:12 PM
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/
12/22
>
>
> I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
> I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diese
l engine. When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing to
talled the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t use
them in the gearbox.
> A very interesting thread this one all the same.
>
> --------
> Europa mono Nr 192
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> st Email Forum -
> pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ==========
> p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> ums.matronics.com
> ==========
> p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> matronics.com
> ==========
> p; - List Contribution Web Site -
> p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ps://matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
| From: | "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when they break
and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an aircraft
not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant which i will try
out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
.And/or use an extremely light prop like the e-prop CS, and keep the revs out of
the resonance bands.
:-)
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 3:04 PM, Area-51 wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when they
break and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an aircraft
not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant which i will
try out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
>
> The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James <james(at)kingdom.ie> |
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <alfuller194(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download |
When clicking on the link it takes one to tuning for motorcycle engines.
Having deleted the prior emails, I don't remember whether the book
previously discussed was aimed at motorcycles. Can anyone remind me whether
this is the same book?
Thanks in advance.
----------------
All the best,
Al Fuller
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
On Behalf Of Area-51
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 9:15 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download
-->
November 14, 2022 - December 27, 2022
Europa-Archive.digest.vol-or