JabiruEngine-Archive.digest.vol-ae

February 06, 2008 - April 30, 2008



      wife said after she had as well). In the past I've picked it us when one
      was loose as it got worse but still worked on the check. This time 150
      hrs from new when it was glued on.
      
      Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of corrosion and
      it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the other one
      yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive spray
      would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't show up
      last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back. 
      
      Regards, Clive
      
      
      -----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 06 February 2008 02:53
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
--> Thanks, Buz- I changed my first set of caps and rotors at 237 hours, and both rotors were loose. I didn't glue the replacements (Bosch) on, and in time, both became loose. I've finally found replacement parts that I'm happy with...Standard Brand caps, and Daiichi rotors from Car Quest. I've now got the set-up I'm happy with, and time will tell if the epoxy is the secret to holding the rotors on, and allow the rotors to "live out their lives" like they should. I'm not cheap, it's just a pain in the rump to change them with the limited room that I have. Personally, I feel that only 200 hours for rotors is way out of line...they should last at least twice that, if not more. I follow the 25-30 hrs for oil changes and filters, though. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 5, 2008, at 8:17 PM, N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote: > Lynn, > I have about 420 hours on my 3300 in the last 25 months and no mag > issues at all (in fact no issues of any kind). I replaced the caps > and rotors at 250 hours not because of problems, but because the > engine manual calls for them to be replaced at 200 hours. When > removed, both caps and rotors were working great and showed no > abnormal wear at the 250 hour point. I feel they could have gone to > 500 hours with no problems, but I believe in preventative maintenance. > I change oil and filter at 25 to 30 hours and plugs at 100 hours. As > you know, all these replaceable parts on the Jabiru are inexpensive > and readily available at auto parts stores. > Blue Skies, > Buz Rich > > > Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL > Music. > www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 06, 2008
Clive- Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal clips was broken, too. Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skirt of the rotor, in line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were both sloppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs. During the recent repair, I looked at the "good" side and it was holding just fine. When I first did the hole drilling thing, I had decided that if that didn't hold, that I would use a Dremel tool and grind a few shallow pockets into the side of the distributor shaft, so that the epoxy could really get a bite onto the shaft. So far that hasn't been necessary. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote: > > > Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of > corrosion and > it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the other one > yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive spray > would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't show up > last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back. > > Regards, Clive > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 06, 2008
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
In a message dated 2/6/2008 8:18:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes: I epoxy the rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. Lynn, How do you get them off when they need to be changed nest time? What am I missing here? Buz **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Don Morrisey <donmorrisey(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 06, 2008
Lynn: As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious how, after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed the next time arou nd? Thanks. Don...www.donsbushcaddy.comDon Morrisey's Skunkworks > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at ma g-check> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:15:23 -0500> To: jabiruengine-list@matron @jps.net>> > Clive-> Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal cl ips was broken, > too.> > Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skir t of the rotor, in > line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the > rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rive t" of > sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd > rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were both > sl oppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs.> > During the recent rep air, I looked at the "good" side and it was > holding just fine. When I fir st did the hole drilling thing, I had > decided that if that didn't hold, t hat I would use a Dremel tool and > grind a few shallow pockets into the si de of the distributor shaft, > so that the epoxy could really get a bite on to the shaft. So far that > hasn't been necessary.> > > Lynn Matteson> Gras s Lake, Michigan> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200> flying w/470+ hrs> > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote:> > > --> JabiruEngine-Li st message posted by: "James, Clive R" > > > >> > Ca use as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of > > corrosion and> > it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the other one> > yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive spray> > w ould be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't show up> > last ==> > > _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2008
From: "THOMAS SMALL" <tjs22t(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Lynn, Are you sure it's a rotor problem (though rotors loose on the distributor shaft certainly need fixed) and not a coil problem. I follow a mainentance program with numbers close to those below for a total of 312 hours. Since 285 hours I have had to replace both coils. They would work and then not work. Internmittent in operation. Heat, or at least a hot day in the fall, broke down the left coil even though I have cool air blasting on it. The right coil left about seven hours ago after it would: first, fail to show an RPM drop on the mag check, second, completely failing during a mag check. I should have suspected it because of rough running and vibration during the previous four or five takeoffs. Your coil may check out on the multi-tester but break down under use. My engine is an old (serial number 051) 3300. It had coils with black cases and grey molding at the end. New coils have different appearance. Glad problem is fixed but at $200.80 a pop I felt rather taken advatage of.. heck, it's just some car coil in all likeiyhood. BTW, the original rotors were tight when I replaced them and the new rotors stay tight - checked them when the rough running was encountered. cheers jeff I have about 420 hours on my 3300 in the last 25 months and no mag issues at all (in fact no issues of any kind). I replaced the caps and rotors at 250 hours not because of problems, but because the engine manual calls for them to be replaced at 200 hours. When removed, both caps and rotors were working great and showed no abnormal wear at the 250 hour point. I feel they could have gone to 500 hours with no problems, but I believe in preventative maintenance. I change oil and filter at 25 to 30 hours and plugs at 100 hours. As you know, all these replaceable parts on the Jabiru are inexpensive and readily available at auto parts stores. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2008
From: "THOMAS SMALL" <tjs22t(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious how, after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed the next time around? Thanks. Don... Don, I would recommend (take that for what it's worth) that with the 3300 you need not "glue" them on. The rotors should be checked before you install by dropping the caps and tugging on them. If loose, then exercise a stiff push onto the shaft to see if perhaps they were not seated in the first place. When I replaced rotors at ~ 275 hours the old ones were tight and the new ones took considerable effort to push on shaft. cheers jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "T. Graziano" <tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 06, 2008
I replaced my factory installed distributor caps and rotors last July at 264 hobbs hours. (about 200 tach hours). The rotors had to be forcefully removed as they were very tight to the shaft - no indications of wear. I had one dist cap (L/H I think) that was showing distress and high wear in the center electrode "carbon button" and the rotor's corresponding pickup had arcing type wear indications. There were no indications of any problems during mag checks. The replaced rotors and caps were procured from Jab USA. The new rotors (Bosch GB73 made in Australia) were very, very snug fit to the shafts and I did not use any adhesive. Current hobbs time on engine about 350 hrs. To date, the only work done on the engine has been routine scheduled type maintenance and minor JSBs which are easily accomplished. Love my Jab. Engine is smooth running and easy to start, although at my lowest start temp to date (Minus 11 C OAT as per AWOS and my cockpit OAT indicator), the engine did die after about 5 seconds after start and had to be restarted. Tony Graziano Jab 3300A S/N33A644; Zodiac 601XL --------------------- has anybody else had any problems with losing a mag, or are you all changing the rotors and caps at the suggested hourly intervals, and gluing the rotors on? The second question is, what has been the condition of the rotors that you've removed? Are the rotors all wallowed out where they mount to the distributor shaft? I checked the rotor in the other mag and found it exactly as I had installed it many (can't recall how many) hours ago. So I now know that my rotor installation procedure is good, and both rotors now have been installed using the same procedure. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 06, 2008
Don and Buz- Since I began to use the epoxy, I haven't had to remove a rotor. The first one I did...the left...was about 50 hours ago (and checked 1-2 hours ago), the second one...the right...just 1-2 hours ago. When it comes time to change rotors next time, I'll heat the rotor with a heat gun and it *should* loosen and come right off. I'm betting that the epoxy will hold the rotor so well that changing will become a non- issue. After all, what can go wrong with a rotor under normal (read automotive) circumstances? It just sits there going around and around, with no load or stress on it. Granted, the jumping spark *can* erode the tip, but I've touched auto rotors up with a file, and put them back into service. The button contact area sees no spark jump, and should last forever as well, given a slight buffing with steel wool, for example. To my mind, the 200 hour life span of these parts is based on the "wobble factor"...if it doesn't wobble, why should it fail? I'm certainly not advocating NOT changing rotors and caps, I'd just like to see someone (read: a Jabiru dealer, mechanic, or engineer) point out the real reason for the suggested time frame. When I changed rotors the first time around, due to a distributor oil seal leak, I scoffed at having to glue them on, and I learned my lesson by having them wobble and fail early, so I'm certainly willing to learn from someone who has the real story. In the meantime, weather permitting, I'll continue to log hours on my engine, and do rotor checks at every other oil change and see what happens...hopefully NOT "famous last words" : - ) Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 6, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Don Morrisey wrote: > Lynn: > > As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious > how, after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed > the next time around? > > Thanks. Don... > > www.donsbushcaddy.com > Don Morrisey's Skunkworks > > > > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net > > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check > > Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:15:23 -0500 > > To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > > Clive- > > Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal clips was > broken, > > too. > > > > Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skirt of the rotor, in > > line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the > > rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of > > sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd > > rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were > both > > sloppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs. > > > > During the recent repair, I looked at the "good" side and it was > > holding just fine. When I first did the hole drilling thing, I had > > decided that if that didn't hold, that I would use a Dremel tool and > > grind a few shallow pockets into the side of the distributor shaft, > > so that the epoxy could really get a bite onto the shaft. So far > that > > hasn't been necessary. > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Grass Lake, Michigan > > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > > flying w/470+ hrs > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of > > > corrosion and > > > it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the > other one > > > yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive > spray > > > would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't > show up > > > last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back. > > > > > > Regards, Clive > > > > > > >==================== > > > > > > > > > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivan" <imap8ntr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 06, 2008
Lynn Thanks for the input. I am unaware of any time frame to replace the Jab 3300 engine rotor. I looked in the service manual for the engine and it says to inspect the distributer and rotor each 50 hours but not to replace. Where did you get info about when to replace the rotor and what was the time frame. My engine has 120 hrs on it without problems. Ivan Phoenix, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check > > Don and Buz- > > Since I began to use the epoxy, I haven't had to remove a rotor. The > first one I did...the left...was about 50 hours ago (and checked 1-2 > hours ago), the second one...the right...just 1-2 hours ago. When it > comes time to change rotors next time, I'll heat the rotor with a heat > gun and it *should* loosen and come right off. I'm betting that the epoxy > will hold the rotor so well that changing will become a non- issue. After > all, what can go wrong with a rotor under normal (read automotive) > circumstances? It just sits there going around and around, with no load > or stress on it. Granted, the jumping spark *can* erode the tip, but I've > touched auto rotors up with a file, and put them back into service. The > button contact area sees no spark jump, and should last forever as well, > given a slight buffing with steel wool, for example. To my mind, the 200 > hour life span of these parts is based on the "wobble factor"...if it > doesn't wobble, why should it fail? I'm certainly not advocating NOT > changing rotors and caps, I'd just like to see someone (read: a Jabiru > dealer, mechanic, or engineer) point out the real reason for the > suggested time frame. When I changed rotors the first time around, due to > a distributor oil seal leak, I scoffed at having to glue them on, and I > learned my lesson by having them wobble and fail early, so I'm certainly > willing to learn from someone who has the real story. In the meantime, > weather permitting, I'll continue to log hours on my engine, and do rotor > checks at every other oil change and see what happens...hopefully NOT > "famous last words" : - ) > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/470+ hrs > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Don Morrisey wrote: > >> Lynn: >> >> As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious how, >> after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed the next >> time around? >> >> Thanks. Don... >> >> www.donsbushcaddy.com >> Don Morrisey's Skunkworks >> >> >> >> >> > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net >> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check >> > Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:15:23 -0500 >> > To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com >> > >> >> > >> > Clive- >> > Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal clips was >> broken, >> > too. >> > >> > Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skirt of the rotor, in >> > line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the >> > rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of >> > sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd >> > rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were >> both >> > sloppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs. >> > >> > During the recent repair, I looked at the "good" side and it was >> > holding just fine. When I first did the hole drilling thing, I had >> > decided that if that didn't hold, that I would use a Dremel tool and >> > grind a few shallow pockets into the side of the distributor shaft, >> > so that the epoxy could really get a bite onto the shaft. So far >> that >> > hasn't been necessary. >> > >> > >> > Lynn Matteson >> > Grass Lake, Michigan >> > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 >> > flying w/470+ hrs >> > >> > >> > On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of >> > > corrosion and >> > > it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the >> other one >> > > yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive >> spray >> > > would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't >> show up >> > > last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back. >> > > >> > > Regards, Clive >> > > >> > >> >==================== >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn >> forums.matronics.com_- >> ============================================================ _- >> contribution_- >> =========================================================== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jabiru USA" <info(at)usjabiru.com>
Subject: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 06, 2008
The instructions in the Jabiru manual now specify an inspection on a regular basis and if the caps & rotor look good they need not be replaced. In the more distant past there was a statement (maybe in one of the early Jaba Chat newsletters) about a service life of 200 hours or two years. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 3:25 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check Lynn Thanks for the input. I am unaware of any time frame to replace the Jab 3300 engine rotor. I looked in the service manual for the engine and it says to inspect the distributer and rotor each 50 hours but not to replace. Where did you get info about when to replace the rotor and what was the time frame. My engine has 120 hrs on it without problems. Ivan Phoenix, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check > > Don and Buz- > > Since I began to use the epoxy, I haven't had to remove a rotor. The > first one I did...the left...was about 50 hours ago (and checked 1-2 > hours ago), the second one...the right...just 1-2 hours ago. When it > comes time to change rotors next time, I'll heat the rotor with a heat > gun and it *should* loosen and come right off. I'm betting that the epoxy > will hold the rotor so well that changing will become a non- issue. After > all, what can go wrong with a rotor under normal (read automotive) > circumstances? It just sits there going around and around, with no load > or stress on it. Granted, the jumping spark *can* erode the tip, but I've > touched auto rotors up with a file, and put them back into service. The > button contact area sees no spark jump, and should last forever as well, > given a slight buffing with steel wool, for example. To my mind, the 200 > hour life span of these parts is based on the "wobble factor"...if it > doesn't wobble, why should it fail? I'm certainly not advocating NOT > changing rotors and caps, I'd just like to see someone (read: a Jabiru > dealer, mechanic, or engineer) point out the real reason for the > suggested time frame. When I changed rotors the first time around, due to > a distributor oil seal leak, I scoffed at having to glue them on, and I > learned my lesson by having them wobble and fail early, so I'm certainly > willing to learn from someone who has the real story. In the meantime, > weather permitting, I'll continue to log hours on my engine, and do rotor > checks at every other oil change and see what happens...hopefully NOT > "famous last words" : - ) > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/470+ hrs > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Don Morrisey wrote: > >> Lynn: >> >> As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious how, >> after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed the next >> time around? >> >> Thanks. Don... >> >> www.donsbushcaddy.com >> Don Morrisey's Skunkworks >> >> >> >> >> > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net >> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check >> > Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:15:23 -0500 >> > To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com >> > >> >> > >> > Clive- >> > Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal clips was >> broken, >> > too. >> > >> > Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skirt of the rotor, in >> > line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the >> > rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of >> > sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd >> > rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were >> both >> > sloppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs. >> > >> > During the recent repair, I looked at the "good" side and it was >> > holding just fine. When I first did the hole drilling thing, I had >> > decided that if that didn't hold, that I would use a Dremel tool and >> > grind a few shallow pockets into the side of the distributor shaft, >> > so that the epoxy could really get a bite onto the shaft. So far >> that >> > hasn't been necessary. >> > >> > >> > Lynn Matteson >> > Grass Lake, Michigan >> > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 >> > flying w/470+ hrs >> > >> > >> > On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of >> > > corrosion and >> > > it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the >> other one >> > > yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive >> spray >> > > would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't >> show up >> > > last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back. >> > > >> > > Regards, Clive >> > > >> > >> >==================== >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn >> forums.matronics.com_- >> ============================================================ _- >> contribution_- >> =========================================================== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 06, 2008
I'm pretty sure that I read it right here...or on the Yahoo Jabiru list, I'm not sure. I went back and looked through my mail about the time that I had the leaking dist shaft seals, thinking maybe that could have triggered a response from "a person in the know", but couldn't find the reference. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Ivan wrote: > > Lynn > Thanks for the input. I am unaware of any time frame to replace > the Jab 3300 engine rotor. I looked in the service manual for the > engine and it says to inspect the distributer and rotor each 50 > hours but not to replace. Where did you get info about when to > replace the rotor and what was the time frame. My engine has 120 > hrs on it without problems. > > Ivan > Phoenix, AZ > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivan" <imap8ntr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 06, 2008
Lynn The neat thing that I love about the Jabiru so far is the good documentation and Pete's input. I can go to the service manual and know exactly what I have to check, how to do it and how often. I felt a little unsupported in those areas when I was running my Rotax. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:18 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check > > I'm pretty sure that I read it right here...or on the Yahoo Jabiru list, > I'm not sure. I went back and looked through my mail about the time that > I had the leaking dist shaft seals, thinking maybe that could have > triggered a response from "a person in the know", but couldn't find the > reference. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/470+ hrs > > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Ivan wrote: > >> >> Lynn >> Thanks for the input. I am unaware of any time frame to replace the Jab >> 3300 engine rotor. I looked in the service manual for the engine and it >> says to inspect the distributer and rotor each 50 hours but not to >> replace. Where did you get info about when to replace the rotor and what >> was the time frame. My engine has 120 hrs on it without problems. >> >> Ivan >> Phoenix, AZ >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Keith Pickford" <kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 07, 2008
I have read 200 hrs somewhere on the Jabiru CD - Replaced ours at 300 because cap was loose, Have done another 600 since with no trouble - used Araldite on rotors Keith Alpi Pioneer 200 w/Jabiru 2200 900+ hrs Jabiru J160 2200 Hydraulic lifters 300+ hrs -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:19 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check I'm pretty sure that I read it right here...or on the Yahoo Jabiru list, I'm not sure. I went back and looked through my mail about the time that I had the leaking dist shaft seals, thinking maybe that could have triggered a response from "a person in the know", but couldn't find the reference. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 07, 2008
Finding a cap loose at 237 hours was what caused me to remove it and look inside. I found a bit of oil inside the left cap, which had come through the shaft seal. I checked the right mag and found it to be saturated with oil, to the point of almost covering the lowest terminal inside the cap. The left shaft was scored by the seal, but the right shaft was unscored. The best-looking shaft had dumped the most oil. I corrected the condition by installing Speedi-Sleeves on both shafts, and installing new seals. No leakage has been found since. As a result of finding loose rotors recently, I've started to use Hysol (a 2-part structural adhesive...epoxy) to secure the rotors. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 6, 2008, at 11:01 PM, Keith Pickford wrote: > > > I have read 200 hrs somewhere on the Jabiru CD - Replaced ours at 300 > because cap was loose, Have done another 600 since with no trouble - > used Araldite on rotors > > Keith > > Alpi Pioneer 200 w/Jabiru 2200 900+ hrs > Jabiru J160 2200 Hydraulic lifters 300+ hrs > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lynn > Matteson > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:19 PM > To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check > > > > I'm pretty sure that I read it right here...or on the Yahoo Jabiru > list, I'm not sure. I went back and looked through my mail about the > time that I had the leaking dist shaft seals, thinking maybe that > could have triggered a response from "a person in the know", but > couldn't find the reference. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/470+ hrs > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Feb 07, 2008
I agree, Ivan....Pete's been good about answering problems. I haven't had to lean on him too often for advice, as my engine got to the 200 hour mark pretty quick with no problems. I did, however, try to talk him out of a Jabiru hat when I was at Oshkosh, but no deal...I had to buy a hat just like everyone else...bummer. : ) (I did buy the hat, though) Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 6, 2008, at 9:50 PM, Ivan wrote: > > Lynn > The neat thing that I love about the Jabiru so far is the good > documentation and Pete's input. I can go to the service manual and > know exactly what I have to check, how to do it and how often. I > felt a little unsupported in those areas when I was running my Rotax. > > Ivan > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2008
From: gary aman <gaman(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Anyone happen to have the Bosch numbers for replacement caps and rotors for 2200s? Thanx G. Aman ----- Original Message ---- From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2008 9:13:13 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check Don and Buz- Since I began to use the epoxy, I haven't had to remove a rotor. The first one I did...the left...was about 50 hours ago (and checked 1-2 hours ago), the second one...the right...just 1-2 hours ago. When it comes time to change rotors next time, I'll heat the rotor with a heat gun and it *should* loosen and come right off. I'm betting that the epoxy will hold the rotor so well that changing will become a non- issue. After all, what can go wrong with a rotor under normal (read automotive) circumstances? It just sits there going around and around, with no load or stress on it. Granted, the jumping spark *can* erode the tip, but I've touched auto rotors up with a file, and put them back into service. The button contact area sees no spark jump, and should last forever as well, given a slight buffing with steel wool, for example. To my mind, the 200 hour life span of these parts is based on the "wobble factor"...if it doesn't wobble, why should it fail? I'm certainly not advocating NOT changing rotors and caps, I'd just like to see someone (read: a Jabiru dealer, mechanic, or engineer) point out the real reason for the suggested time frame. When I changed rotors the first time around, due to a distributor oil seal leak, I scoffed at having to glue them on, and I learned my lesson by having them wobble and fail early, so I'm certainly willing to learn from someone who has the real story. In the meantime, weather permitting, I'll continue to log hours on my engine, and do rotor checks at every other oil change and see what happens...hopefully NOT "famous last words" : - ) Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 6, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Don Morrisey wrote: > Lynn: > > As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious > how, after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed > the next time around? > > Thanks. Don... > > www.donsbushcaddy.com > Don Morrisey's Skunkworks > > > > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net > > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Mag failure at mag-check > > Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:15:23 -0500 > > To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > > Clive- > > Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal clips was > broken, > > too. > > > > Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skirt of the rotor, in > > line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the > > rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of > > sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd > > rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were > both > > sloppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs. > > > > During the recent repair, I looked at the "good" side and it was > > holding just fine. When I first did the hole drilling thing, I had > > decided that if that didn't hold, that I would use a Dremel tool and > > grind a few shallow pockets into the side of the distributor shaft, > > so that the epoxy could really get a bite onto the shaft. So far > that > > hasn't been necessary. > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Grass Lake, Michigan > > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > > flying w/470+ hrs > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of > > > corrosion and > > > it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the > other one > > > yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive > spray > > > would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't > show up > > > last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back. > > > > > > Regards, Clive > > > > > > >==================== > > > > > > > > > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Feb 07, 2008
Cap GH506 Rotor GH600 these show on the carton as for Honda Civic '73 and Datsun (Nissan) 1100 or 1200 They were identical to the ones on my 2200. Note you will need to cut off a portion of the caps to use them on the engine Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162935#162935 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: EGT Probes
Date: Feb 09, 2008
I am going to add EGT's to my 2200 (SN 988). I can get probes that are either 1/2 inch long or 1 inch long. Any comments on which length should I get? Chuck D. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Silvester" <andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: EGT Probes
Date: Feb 09, 2008
Chuck, Get the 1" ones; they'll span the inside diameter of the exhaust pipes nicely. Andy Silvester Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc 813 377 2716 From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Deiterich Sent: 09 February 2008 12:59 Subject: JabiruEngine-List: EGT Probes I am going to add EGT's to my 2200 (SN 988). I can get probes that are either 1/2 inch long or 1 inch long. Any comments on which length should I get? Chuck D. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: EGT Probes
Date: Feb 09, 2008
Andy- Wouldn't you want the tip of the probe to be in the center of the pipe? It's been my experience (a few years spent installing thermocouples in test cars for Chrysler Corp) that it's where the two dissimilar wires come together...usually at the tip of the thermocouple...that the reading is made. I'll certainly defer to your knowledge of the thermocouples in question....I know nothing about those particular ones. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 9, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Andy Silvester wrote: > Chuck, > > > Get the 1 ones; theyll span the inside diameter of the exhaust > pipes nicely. > > > Andy Silvester > > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc > > 813 377 2716 > > > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Deiterich > Sent: 09 February 2008 12:59 > To: Jab-list > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: EGT Probes > > > I am going to add EGT's to my 2200 (SN 988). > I can get probes that are either 1/2 inch long or 1 inch long. > Any comments on which length should I get? > > Chuck D. > > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Silvester" <andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: EGT Probes
Date: Feb 10, 2008
Lynn, I think you probably have the 'edge' over me on thermocouple technology, but with these EGT senders, you're attempting to measure a pipe full of very fast moving hot gas and I doubt, with the turbulence of post-combustion, anyone can really tell where (in the pipe diameter) the best place for true measurement is. Unless of course you could spend considerable time in laboratory conditions measuring.....We've always used the 1" probes, supplied mainly from Grand Rapids Technologies and as a measure of EGT, they do a fair job. After all, EGT is very much a 'comparative' measurement and it's always the case to see a wider range of temps across all cylinders, (even when in the case of a direct-injected engine where mixture is more accurately known), than you'd see for example in a well-balanced set of CHT figures. What you'll be looking for is a temperature span of less than (say) 80F-100F across cylinders (less is good but often not worth chasing), but the absolute values will tell you more about how the engine's doing: 1. Less than 1100F will betray an over-rich condition 2. Above 1400F is too lean, particularly at full throttle. Remember, the Bing's mixture compensating needle will promote a relatively rich mixture at high throttle openings (so the high workload won't lead to detonation) and a relatively lean condition in the cruise. Prop selection, airframe type, fuel quality all have effects, but essentially I get my confidence from a good-running engine by seeing (say) cruise EGTs around 1250F-1300F, and wide-open throttle EGTs about 100F less. Opening the throttle to full while monitoring the EGTs will see a marked reduction. Comprehensive info on this subject can be found in Jabiru's Service Bulletin JSB 018-1 at: http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/JSB018-1Engine%2 0tuning.pdf There's plenty of accepted wisdom about the benefits of multiple EGT measurement; noting a rising EGT on a cylinder could help to diagnose an air-leak in the induction and signal the need for maintenance before an expensive head overhaul becomes necessary. Thanks, Lynn for providing the opportunity to neatly evade your topic and (no doubt) raise discussion about another..! Cheers, Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 09 February 2008 18:08 Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: EGT Probes Andy- Wouldn't you want the tip of the probe to be in the center of the pipe? It's been my experience (a few years spent installing thermocouples in test cars for Chrysler Corp) that it's where the two dissimilar wires come together...usually at the tip of the thermocouple...that the reading is made. I'll certainly defer to your knowledge of the thermocouples in question....I know nothing about those particular ones. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 9, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Andy Silvester wrote: > Chuck, > > > Get the 1" ones; they'll span the inside diameter of the exhaust > pipes nicely. > > > Andy Silvester > > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc > > 813 377 2716 > > > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Deiterich > Sent: 09 February 2008 12:59 > To: Jab-list > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: EGT Probes > > > I am going to add EGT's to my 2200 (SN 988). > I can get probes that are either 1/2 inch long or 1 inch long. > Any comments on which length should I get? > > Chuck D. > > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: EGT Probes
Date: Feb 10, 2008
Thanks for the info, Andy. I've got all four cyls monitored with Grand Rapids Technologies probes, and their EIS. I'm not sure what length they are, but I recall having to stack about 1/8" of washers onto the probe so as to prevent it from entering the pipe too far. I can't really recall where this put the probe in relationship to the center of the pipe...maybe it just kept it from touching the other side of the pipe, which wouldn't be good for readings. My particular readings are in the 1300's F at full throttle, all within 40F, and in the 1400's F at cruise. I've got engine #2062 which had the economy tune at the time of delivery, and I haven't changed it. Sounds like maybe I'd better go a little richer, eh? Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Andy Silvester wrote: > > > Lynn, > > I think you probably have the 'edge' over me on thermocouple > technology, but > with these EGT senders, you're attempting to measure a pipe full of > very > fast moving hot gas and I doubt, with the turbulence of post- > combustion, > anyone can really tell where (in the pipe diameter) the best place > for true > measurement is. Unless of course you could spend considerable time in > laboratory conditions measuring.....We've always used the 1" probes, > supplied mainly from Grand Rapids Technologies and as a measure of > EGT, they > do a fair job. After all, EGT is very much a 'comparative' > measurement and > it's always the case to see a wider range of temps across all > cylinders, > (even when in the case of a direct-injected engine where mixture is > more > accurately known), than you'd see for example in a well-balanced > set of CHT > figures. What you'll be looking for is a temperature span of less > than (say) > 80F-100F across cylinders (less is good but often not worth > chasing), but > the absolute values will tell you more about how the engine's doing: > > 1. Less than 1100F will betray an over-rich condition > 2. Above 1400F is too lean, particularly at full throttle. > > Remember, the Bing's mixture compensating needle will promote a > relatively > rich mixture at high throttle openings (so the high workload won't > lead to > detonation) and a relatively lean condition in the cruise. Prop > selection, > airframe type, fuel quality all have effects, but essentially I get my > confidence from a good-running engine by seeing (say) cruise EGTs > around > 1250F-1300F, and wide-open throttle EGTs about 100F less. Opening the > throttle to full while monitoring the EGTs will see a marked > reduction. > Comprehensive info on this subject can be found in Jabiru's Service > Bulletin > JSB 018-1 at: > http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/ > JSB018-1Engine%2 > 0tuning.pdf > > There's plenty of accepted wisdom about the benefits of multiple EGT > measurement; noting a rising EGT on a cylinder could help to > diagnose an > air-leak in the induction and signal the need for maintenance > before an > expensive head overhaul becomes necessary. Thanks, Lynn for > providing the > opportunity to neatly evade your topic and (no doubt) raise > discussion about > another..! > > Cheers, Andy > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Silvester" <andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: EGT Probes
Date: Feb 10, 2008
Lynn, Actually, those temps and 'span' are very good; I wouldn't change a thing, particularly on the 2200. I have run our own engines hotter (in the 1400s at cruise) and with no ill-effects in a few hundred hours, but it's a little higher than Jabiru's own recommendations. As long as you're seeing that drop on increase in throttle, you're good with what you have, and no doubt a pretty good g.p.h. figure. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 10 February 2008 14:31 Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: EGT Probes Thanks for the info, Andy. I've got all four cyls monitored with Grand Rapids Technologies probes, and their EIS. I'm not sure what length they are, but I recall having to stack about 1/8" of washers onto the probe so as to prevent it from entering the pipe too far. I can't really recall where this put the probe in relationship to the center of the pipe...maybe it just kept it from touching the other side of the pipe, which wouldn't be good for readings. My particular readings are in the 1300's F at full throttle, all within 40F, and in the 1400's F at cruise. I've got engine #2062 which had the economy tune at the time of delivery, and I haven't changed it. Sounds like maybe I'd better go a little richer, eh? Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Andy Silvester wrote: > > > Lynn, > > I think you probably have the 'edge' over me on thermocouple > technology, but > with these EGT senders, you're attempting to measure a pipe full of > very > fast moving hot gas and I doubt, with the turbulence of post- > combustion, > anyone can really tell where (in the pipe diameter) the best place > for true > measurement is. Unless of course you could spend considerable time in > laboratory conditions measuring.....We've always used the 1" probes, > supplied mainly from Grand Rapids Technologies and as a measure of > EGT, they > do a fair job. After all, EGT is very much a 'comparative' > measurement and > it's always the case to see a wider range of temps across all > cylinders, > (even when in the case of a direct-injected engine where mixture is > more > accurately known), than you'd see for example in a well-balanced > set of CHT > figures. What you'll be looking for is a temperature span of less > than (say) > 80F-100F across cylinders (less is good but often not worth > chasing), but > the absolute values will tell you more about how the engine's doing: > > 1. Less than 1100F will betray an over-rich condition > 2. Above 1400F is too lean, particularly at full throttle. > > Remember, the Bing's mixture compensating needle will promote a > relatively > rich mixture at high throttle openings (so the high workload won't > lead to > detonation) and a relatively lean condition in the cruise. Prop > selection, > airframe type, fuel quality all have effects, but essentially I get my > confidence from a good-running engine by seeing (say) cruise EGTs > around > 1250F-1300F, and wide-open throttle EGTs about 100F less. Opening the > throttle to full while monitoring the EGTs will see a marked > reduction. > Comprehensive info on this subject can be found in Jabiru's Service > Bulletin > JSB 018-1 at: > http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/ > JSB018-1Engine%2 > 0tuning.pdf > > There's plenty of accepted wisdom about the benefits of multiple EGT > measurement; noting a rising EGT on a cylinder could help to > diagnose an > air-leak in the induction and signal the need for maintenance > before an > expensive head overhaul becomes necessary. Thanks, Lynn for > providing the > opportunity to neatly evade your topic and (no doubt) raise > discussion about > another..! > > Cheers, Andy > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Keith Pickford" <kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: EGT Probes
Date: Feb 11, 2008
Wasn't there a recommendation to drill the main jet out slightly on the tuning kit ? Keith -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Silvester Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:18 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: EGT Probes Lynn, Actually, those temps and 'span' are very good; I wouldn't change a thing, particularly on the 2200. I have run our own engines hotter (in the 1400s at cruise) and with no ill-effects in a few hundred hours, but it's a little higher than Jabiru's own recommendations. As long as you're seeing that drop on increase in throttle, you're good with what you have, and no doubt a pretty good g.p.h. figure. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 10 February 2008 14:31 Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: EGT Probes Thanks for the info, Andy. I've got all four cyls monitored with Grand Rapids Technologies probes, and their EIS. I'm not sure what length they are, but I recall having to stack about 1/8" of washers onto the probe so as to prevent it from entering the pipe too far. I can't really recall where this put the probe in relationship to the center of the pipe...maybe it just kept it from touching the other side of the pipe, which wouldn't be good for readings. My particular readings are in the 1300's F at full throttle, all within 40F, and in the 1400's F at cruise. I've got engine #2062 which had the economy tune at the time of delivery, and I haven't changed it. Sounds like maybe I'd better go a little richer, eh? Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Andy Silvester wrote: > > > Lynn, > > I think you probably have the 'edge' over me on thermocouple > technology, but > with these EGT senders, you're attempting to measure a pipe full of > very > fast moving hot gas and I doubt, with the turbulence of post- > combustion, > anyone can really tell where (in the pipe diameter) the best place > for true > measurement is. Unless of course you could spend considerable time in > laboratory conditions measuring.....We've always used the 1" probes, > supplied mainly from Grand Rapids Technologies and as a measure of > EGT, they > do a fair job. After all, EGT is very much a 'comparative' > measurement and > it's always the case to see a wider range of temps across all > cylinders, > (even when in the case of a direct-injected engine where mixture is > more > accurately known), than you'd see for example in a well-balanced > set of CHT > figures. What you'll be looking for is a temperature span of less > than (say) > 80F-100F across cylinders (less is good but often not worth > chasing), but > the absolute values will tell you more about how the engine's doing: > > 1. Less than 1100F will betray an over-rich condition > 2. Above 1400F is too lean, particularly at full throttle. > > Remember, the Bing's mixture compensating needle will promote a > relatively > rich mixture at high throttle openings (so the high workload won't > lead to > detonation) and a relatively lean condition in the cruise. Prop > selection, > airframe type, fuel quality all have effects, but essentially I get my > confidence from a good-running engine by seeing (say) cruise EGTs > around > 1250F-1300F, and wide-open throttle EGTs about 100F less. Opening the > throttle to full while monitoring the EGTs will see a marked > reduction. > Comprehensive info on this subject can be found in Jabiru's Service > Bulletin > JSB 018-1 at: > http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/ > JSB018-1Engine%2 > 0tuning.pdf > > There's plenty of accepted wisdom about the benefits of multiple EGT > measurement; noting a rising EGT on a cylinder could help to > diagnose an > air-leak in the induction and signal the need for maintenance > before an > expensive head overhaul becomes necessary. Thanks, Lynn for > providing the > opportunity to neatly evade your topic and (no doubt) raise > discussion about > another..! > > Cheers, Andy > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: EGT Probes
Date: Feb 10, 2008
Andy and Lynn, Thanks for the response. I searched around the internet and also looked at Tony Bingelis' books. His book just has a drawing that shows the tip of the probe in the center. One place said the tip should be in the center of the gas stream I suspect in the center is the hottest. So that is what I will try to do. Chuck D. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2008
From: "RONAL SMITH" <ronal22(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Engine Oil Change
I just changed the oil in my Jab 2200A engine, and made an interesting observation. My engine is in a Kitfox IV with tail wheel. After draining the oil in the 3-point position (over night), I raised the tail so that the A/C was level (flight position). I did this to recalibrate the dipstick. After going to the level position, I got 3-4 oz. more oil out of the engine. I don't know if anybody else has observed this, but I thought it would be worth noting to the group. In the future I will always drain the oil in the level position. Ron Smith, Kitfox 4, 45 hrs. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Oil Change
Date: Feb 11, 2008
Why did you want to recalibrate in the level position? I recalibrated mine in the tail down (taildragger, too) position, because that's how it's going to be when I check it. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 11, 2008, at 4:20 PM, RONAL SMITH wrote: > I just changed the oil in my Jab 2200A engine, and made an > interesting observation. My engine is in a Kitfox IV with tail > wheel. After draining the oil in the 3-point position (over > night), I raised the tail so that the A/C was level (flight position). > I did this to recalibrate the dipstick. After going to the level > position, I got 3-4 oz. more oil out of the engine. I don't know > if anybody else has observed this, but I thought it would be worth > noting to the group. In the future I will always drain the oil in > the level position. > > Ron Smith, Kitfox 4, 45 hrs. > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Which EIS?
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Feb 12, 2008
I'm want to install an EIS in the X-Air H that I'm currently building and it will have a Jab 2200A (#2859) on the front. I've been looking at the Grand Rapids EIS as it seems to give me all of the information that I need at a reasonable price, but I've tried emailing them 3 times for more information and I haven't had a single response from them. If they're like this before I buy, then there's not much hope once I've passed over the cash! What are your experiences with Grand Rapids, their EIS and other instruments? Is there something else that you would recommend I should looking? Budget dictates that stuff like the Dynon are a no-no! Thanks in advance. Ian Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163680#163680 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Which EIS?
Date: Feb 12, 2008
I ve purchase two EIS units from Jabiru West in Fresno, California. Excellent service and good prices. I had one on my 2200A and now on my 3300A. Call Jim and see what he will do... Steve Weston ----- Original Message ----- From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:14 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Which EIS? > > > I'm want to install an EIS in the X-Air H that I'm currently building and > it will have a Jab 2200A (#2859) on the front. I've been looking at the > Grand Rapids EIS as it seems to give me all of the information that I need > at a reasonable price, but I've tried emailing them 3 times for more > information and I haven't had a single response from them. If they're > like this before I buy, then there's not much hope once I've passed over > the cash! > > What are your experiences with Grand Rapids, their EIS and other > instruments? Is there something else that you would recommend I should > looking? Budget dictates that stuff like the Dynon are a no-no! > > Thanks in advance. > > Ian Wilson > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163680#163680 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: Which EIS?
Date: Feb 12, 2008
The March issue of Kitplanes magazine had a survey of engine monitors. But you have to subscribe or pay $7.50 for the single article: http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/25_3/builder_spotlight/issues_builderspotlig ht_8133-1.phtml One new low-cost line comes from I-K Technologies. The combine LED bar graphs with monochrome LCD displays: http://www.i-ktechnologies.com/ Also try MGL: Factory site (South Africa): http://www.mglavionics.co.za/ US Site: http://www.mglavionics.com/ The E2 might suit you: http://www.mglavionics.com/html/e2.html The E1 fits in a 3.5 inch standard round cut-out: http://www.mglavionics.com/e1.pdf On the other hand MGL's monochrome EFIS is cheap enough that you could go all glass: http://www.mglavionics.com/html/ultra_horizon_xl.html If you have questions ask them on the user-to-user Yahoo group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stratomaster_users_group/ Rainier (the owner and chief designer) regularly responds to questions directly on the group. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ianwilson2 Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:15 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Which EIS? I'm want to install an EIS in the X-Air H that I'm currently building and it will have a Jab 2200A (#2859) on the front. I've been looking at the Grand Rapids EIS as it seems to give me all of the information that I need at a reasonable price, but I've tried emailing them 3 times for more information and I haven't had a single response from them. If they're like this before I buy, then there's not much hope once I've passed over the cash! What are your experiences with Grand Rapids, their EIS and other instruments? Is there something else that you would recommend I should looking? Budget dictates that stuff like the Dynon are a no-no! Thanks in advance. Ian Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163680#163680 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jabiru USA" <info(at)usjabiru.com>
Subject: Which EIS?
Date: Feb 12, 2008
I'm surprised that you have not had a response. Normally GRT customer support is top notch. I would highly recommend the GRT EIS. We've sold several hundred in the last few years with no problems. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ianwilson2 Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Which EIS? I'm want to install an EIS in the X-Air H that I'm currently building and it will have a Jab 2200A (#2859) on the front. I've been looking at the Grand Rapids EIS as it seems to give me all of the information that I need at a reasonable price, but I've tried emailing them 3 times for more information and I haven't had a single response from them. If they're like this before I buy, then there's not much hope once I've passed over the cash! What are your experiences with Grand Rapids, their EIS and other instruments? Is there something else that you would recommend I should looking? Budget dictates that stuff like the Dynon are a no-no! Thanks in advance. Ian Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163680#163680 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Which EIS?
Date: Feb 12, 2008
I've got the Grand Rapids EIS with probes on all 4 cylinders for EGT and CHT's. I've phoned them whenever a learning problem occurred, and except for one occasion, they were there to answer questions. Try a phone call. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 12, 2008, at 12:14 PM, ianwilson2 wrote: > > > I'm want to install an EIS in the X-Air H that I'm currently > building and it will have a Jab 2200A (#2859) on the front. I've > been looking at the Grand Rapids EIS as it seems to give me all of > the information that I need at a reasonable price, but I've tried > emailing them 3 times for more information and I haven't had a > single response from them. If they're like this before I buy, then > there's not much hope once I've passed over the cash! > > What are your experiences with Grand Rapids, their EIS and other > instruments? Is there something else that you would recommend I > should looking? Budget dictates that stuff like the Dynon are a no- > no! > > Thanks in advance. > > Ian Wilson > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163680#163680 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "D.Hetrick" <gdh(at)isp.com>
Subject: Re: Which EIS?
Date: Feb 12, 2008
Ian, Take a look at Rocky Mountain Instrument. They make a great EFIS as well as an encoder. Dale XS Tri-gear with Jab 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:14 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Which EIS? > > > I'm want to install an EIS in the X-Air H that I'm currently building and > it will have a Jab 2200A (#2859) on the front. I've been looking at the > Grand Rapids EIS as it seems to give me all of the information that I need > at a reasonable price, but I've tried emailing them 3 times for more > information and I haven't had a single response from them. If they're > like this before I buy, then there's not much hope once I've passed over > the cash! > > What are your experiences with Grand Rapids, their EIS and other > instruments? Is there something else that you would recommend I should > looking? Budget dictates that stuff like the Dynon are a no-no! > > Thanks in advance. > > Ian Wilson > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163680#163680 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2008
From: "RONAL SMITH" <ronal22(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Engine Oil Change
Lynn, I wanted to recalibrate my dipstick, because when I first did it, the dipstick tube was not in the proper position. When I first added oil to my engine, I calibrated the dipstick for the 3-point position. Then when I ran the engine, I had an oil leak at the base of the dipstick tube. I found out the dipstick tube was not seated all the way down so that the O-ring was engaging. When I pushed the tube down and tightened the setscrew on the dipstick tube holder, it would raise the tube about 1/4 inch. I fixed that problem, but never recalibrated my dipstick. My max oil level in the 3-point position is at the bottom mark of the original dipstick that I assume was calibrated for the engine in the level position.. Where is your max oil level mark? I could use a longer dipstick, are there any to be had that will fit. Ron Smith, KF-4 with Jabiru 2200A engine. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Engine Oil Change
Date: Feb 12, 2008
I "borrowed" someone else's idea and using a small pin punch, drove the dipstick tube down into the knob about a quarter-inch. This makes the stick penetrate further into the oil in the sump. Or you could just silver solder a short extension onto the original dipstick. With this new position of the original marks, I use the center mark as my oil level. Basically what you should do is to add the amount of oil that the instructions recommend, like say after an oil change, then start the engine, let the oil circulate and fill the filter, lines etc., then let it sit for several hours. Then make a mark that shows the level at that point. This is the level of oil that they recommend. I've found that if I add 2 qts and 14 oz of oil after an oil and filter change, then start up, shut down and let sit, that is my oil level. This reflects about what Jabiru says the oil capacity should be. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 12, 2008, at 5:19 PM, RONAL SMITH wrote: > Lynn, I wanted to recalibrate my dipstick, because when I first > did it, the dipstick tube was not in the proper position. When I > first added oil to my engine, I calibrated the dipstick for the 3- > point position. Then when I ran the engine, I had an oil leak at > the base of the dipstick tube. I found out the dipstick tube was > not seated all the way down so that the O-ring was engaging. When > I pushed the tube down and tightened the setscrew on the dipstick > tube holder, it would raise the tube about 1/4 inch. I fixed that > problem, but never recalibrated my dipstick. > > My max oil level in the 3-point position is at the bottom mark of > the original dipstick that I assume was calibrated for the engine > in the level position.. Where is your max oil level mark? I could > use a longer dipstick, are there any to be had that will fit. > > Ron Smith, KF-4 with Jabiru 2200A engine. > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rotor arm pictures
Date: Feb 13, 2008
From: "James, Clive R" <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com>
On Yahoo Jabiru engine group and attached are some pictures of the arms for the 2200 and 3300 as most folk won't have seen both types, The 3300 looks to have a lot more substantial fitting and from what's been posted here and on Yahoo doesn't have the same issues at the 2200 (clip failing, falling off, gluing recomendation). For the 2200 the two plastic 'rivets' can be seen. I tried some cheap ones once but with only one 'rivet' and the gear whine or whatever causes the situation with the arms vibrating + falling off soon had the metal plate loose. Regards, Clive ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Which EIS?
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Feb 13, 2008
Thank you all for your input, especially Craig for all of the alternative links and to Pete who passed my email to GRT - and guess what, I had a response from Sandy! It's good to know that some of you have had a good response to their queries/problems. It gives me more confidence. I now need to sit down at my computer and calculator and work out what's going to work best for me - I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks again. Ian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163812#163812 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Rotor arm pictures
Date: Feb 13, 2008
I'm wondering why Jabiru makes a different rotor for the two engines. The 3300 one looks a LOT more substantial in that the length of the skirt is longer and thus grips the shaft a lot better, I'll bet. I've been thinking of making my own rotors for awhile now, or at least modify the skirts of existing ones. If my present method of drilling holes in the skirts and using epoxy doesn't hold for at least 200 hrs, I will. When I was racing cars, I used a Vertex magneto, and their rotors had 3 point-tipped screws in the skirt. These pointed screws went into a v-shaped groove in the shaft, and were safety wired in place. No lost rotors at 6500 crank speed, but then it would have taken several 8- second dragstrip runs to accumulate 200 hrs. : ) Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/470+ hrs On Feb 13, 2008, at 2:36 AM, James, Clive R wrote: > On Yahoo Jabiru engine group and attached are some pictures of the > arms > for the 2200 and 3300 as most folk won't have seen both types, The > 3300 > looks to have a lot more substantial fitting and from what's been > posted > here and on Yahoo doesn't have the same issues at the 2200 (clip > failing, falling off, gluing recomendation). > > For the 2200 the two plastic 'rivets' can be seen. I tried some cheap > ones once but with only one 'rivet' and the gear whine or whatever > causes the situation with the arms vibrating + falling off soon had > the > metal plate loose. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Electrical setup for my 3300
From: "pequeajim" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 18, 2008
I am going to use a Composite Design power panel in the Lightning that I am building. This has a split power toggle switch on it (master/alternator). The panel wants to see power from a battery solonoid (like a Cessna), and not wired direct. My engine is a Jabiru 3300 and most of the aircraft built by the Jabiru USA guys just takes power directly off the battery to a 25-35 amp master breaker switch. Based on this, I have a couple of questions: Why does Cessna use the extra solenoid? Why do the Jabiru guys use a breaker switch and not the extra coil like the Cessna guys? Is there an advantage of one over the other? Thanks ahead of time for the help... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164900#164900 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff " <jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Electrical setup for my 3300
Date: Feb 18, 2008
When I last talked to Pete about this, his answer was that you can use or not use a battery solenoid as you please. With help from others on the list, I used a battery solenoid mainly to keep all the "live" wires in front of the firewall when the master is off. Since the master is actually grounding the contactor (solenoid), there is no power passing it when it is not grounded. Mine is located close to the battery on the engine side of the firewall and is the continuous type. Sounds like you can easily make your Composite Design box happy. Depending on the alternator (three phase or single phase), the alternator hookup is slightly different too. Jeff D -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pequeajim Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 7:35 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Electrical setup for my 3300 I am going to use a Composite Design power panel in the Lightning that I am building. This has a split power toggle switch on it (master/alternator). The panel wants to see power from a battery solonoid (like a Cessna), and not wired direct. My engine is a Jabiru 3300 and most of the aircraft built by the Jabiru USA guys just takes power directly off the battery to a 25-35 amp master breaker switch. Based on this, I have a couple of questions: Why does Cessna use the extra solenoid? Why do the Jabiru guys use a breaker switch and not the extra coil like the Cessna guys? Is there an advantage of one over the other? Thanks ahead of time for the help... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164900#164900 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical setup for my 3300
From: "pequeajim" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 18, 2008
Thanks Jeff for the quick reply. I guess I could mount my battery solenoid right next to the one for the starter. Where did you buy your from, and was there a specific type? I was thinking of using this master relay from Spruce. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php It is light and easy to wire up? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164911#164911 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff " <jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Electrical setup for my 3300
Date: Feb 18, 2008
As I remember, it came from B&C Specialty and had the diode already wired up saving just a bit of extra work. I have also used Terminal Town, Aircraft Spruce, and others for electrical stuff. And yes, I mounted the two solenoids close together. A picture is attached. Jeff Thanks Jeff for the quick reply. I guess I could mount my battery solenoid right next to the one for the starter. Where did you buy your from, and was there a specific type? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PaulCDJ(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2008
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 02/17/08
Hi, Good work you do, however can you take me off the list? Thanks Paul de Jung **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Electrical setup for my 3300
Date: Feb 19, 2008
I'll be honest here I had to read your question a couple of times to get the gist of what you were asking. Why does Cessna use a solenoid on the battery... simply to isolate the battery from the rest of the aircraft. The reason to do it through a solenoid is to allow for lighter wiring carrying less amperage to the panel/switch/circuit breaker. Also when the current provided by the battery get's low enough the solenoid will open not allowing the battery to completely discharge. The use of the solenoid also gives a level of protection to the heavy cable going from the battery to the starter. One place the solenoid could be turned off is if the starter jammed in the on position. Shutting down the battery would also shut down power to the starter motor. The Cessna also has a second solenoid to automatically connect ground power to the airplane for starting through the exterior connection. One nice side to that relay is the exterior connector can't be used to blow up air mattresses etc. Darned if I know if it is possible to short the electrical system through the alternator/generator but if it is possible, then the double switches allow the pilot to isolate one power system from the other. Also the engines don't require electrical power to run unless they have electric fuel pumps so operation on batteries only, should last for several hours if unnecessary loads are shut down. My plane only has a 582 in it right now but I rewired it with a solenoid at the battery to provide power to the starter. I have a fused link at the solenoid protecting the energizer wire to the master switch. The master switch only needs to connect that wire to ground to energize the master relay. My generator is connected to the power buss through a circuit breaker. After all it is only 15A. I also have a small wire from the supply side of the relay that only powers my clock BTW the solenoid used is not a starter solenoid. Starter solenoids will heat up and possibly burn out in short order. The relay I used is one from a trailer supply outlet and is normally used to wire auxiliary batteries to cars so when the car is stopped the main battery is disconnected from the trailer power. Not having the relay in there can be embarrassing when you want to start the car again only to find you have run both batteries flat. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pequeajim Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:05 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Electrical setup for my 3300 I am going to use a Composite Design power panel in the Lightning that I am building. This has a split power toggle switch on it (master/alternator). The panel wants to see power from a battery solonoid (like a Cessna), and not wired direct. My engine is a Jabiru 3300 and most of the aircraft built by the Jabiru USA guys just takes power directly off the battery to a 25-35 amp master breaker switch. Based on this, I have a couple of questions: Why does Cessna use the extra solenoid? Why do the Jabiru guys use a breaker switch and not the extra coil like the Cessna guys? Is there an advantage of one over the other? Thanks ahead of time for the help... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164900#164900 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Electrical setup for my 3300
Date: Feb 19, 2008
In the C-185 the battery and two relays (1 for exterior power) are behind the cargo compartment behind the passenger compartment... So even with the relays the heavy hot wire has to pass under the floor up to the engine compartment. The run from the battery to the main relay is very short as both relays are mounted to the exterior of the battery box. The exterior power relay has a diode on the energizer line so if the connector is reverse wired the relay will not make the connection with the AC battery. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:24 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Electrical setup for my 3300 When I last talked to Pete about this, his answer was that you can use or not use a battery solenoid as you please. With help from others on the list, I used a battery solenoid mainly to keep all the "live" wires in front of the firewall when the master is off. Since the master is actually grounding the contactor (solenoid), there is no power passing it when it is not grounded. Mine is located close to the battery on the engine side of the firewall and is the continuous type. Sounds like you can easily make your Composite Design box happy. Depending on the alternator (three phase or single phase), the alternator hookup is slightly different too. Jeff D -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pequeajim Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 7:35 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Electrical setup for my 3300 I am going to use a Composite Design power panel in the Lightning that I am building. This has a split power toggle switch on it (master/alternator). The panel wants to see power from a battery solonoid (like a Cessna), and not wired direct. My engine is a Jabiru 3300 and most of the aircraft built by the Jabiru USA guys just takes power directly off the battery to a 25-35 amp master breaker switch. Based on this, I have a couple of questions: Why does Cessna use the extra solenoid? Why do the Jabiru guys use a breaker switch and not the extra coil like the Cessna guys? Is there an advantage of one over the other? Thanks ahead of time for the help... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164900#164900 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Electrical setup for my 3300
Date: Feb 19, 2008
That's the beast you want... Price is pretty good too! To keep your always hot 4-0 cable as short as possible mount your relay right on the outside of your battery box. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pequeajim Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:40 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Electrical setup for my 3300 Thanks Jeff for the quick reply. I guess I could mount my battery solenoid right next to the one for the starter. Where did you buy your from, and was there a specific type? I was thinking of using this master relay from Spruce. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php It is light and easy to wire up? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164911#164911 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical setup for my 3300
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Feb 19, 2008
Not saying this is the wrong place, but can I recommend that you guys direct your electronic questions on the Jab (or any engine) to the aeroelectric forum on this website. The guys there REALLY know how these things hang together. Ian Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165062#165062 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Rough running 2200
Date: Feb 25, 2008
1. Several flying hours ago my 2200 (solid lifters-#988) started running rough at full throttle (~3140 rpm) and a bit rough about 3000 rpm (95 total hours). The float bowl was running over. My float needle was the one with the weak spring so I put in a new float needle with the stronger spring. Now, no fuel running over, engine off with Facet fuel pump for several minutes. 2. Engine still is rough at high throttle, I thought it might be rich so I installed 4 EGT probes 120 mm from exhaust faces before changing any jets. My main jet is 255. 3. At 2800 rpm all 4 cylinders are 1200 F, a bit cool for this rpm, engine is smooth as silk. 4. At 3000 rpm number 3 (hottest) is 1275 F, number 2 (coolest) is 1200 F and engine is slightly rough. 5. At full throttle number 1 and 3 are 1300 F a bit high (2 is 1200, 4 is 1250), number 3 CHT is 250 F others about 225 F. One time I saw number 3 almost to 1375 F. Engine is really pretty rough. 6. If number 3 EGT probe was in error it would have been different from the others at 2800 rpm, but it wasn't. 7. The throttle movement from 3000 rpm to full throttle is about 20% of the throw with little change in rpm. Number 3 EGT drops quickly after going from full throttle back to about 3000 rpm. 8. I just finished my condition inspection and the compression varied from about 71/80 (#4) to 63/80 (#3). 9. I have a 2 =BC" radiator hose (90 degree bend) going into the carb. 10. How can the EGT's be so high at higher throttle settings with a 255 main jet? And most important, what can be causing the rough engine? Thanks, Chuck D. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jabiru USA" <info(at)usjabiru.com>
Subject: Rough running 2200
Date: Feb 25, 2008
What happens when you apply carb heat or apply choke when it is running rough? Does it get better or worse? Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Deiterich Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 5:18 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Rough running 2200 1. Several flying hours ago my 2200 (solid lifters-#988) started running rough at full throttle (~3140 rpm) and a bit rough about 3000 rpm (95 total hours). The float bowl was running over. My float needle was the one with the weak spring so I put in a new float needle with the stronger spring. Now, no fuel running over, engine off with Facet fuel pump for several minutes. 2. Engine still is rough at high throttle, I thought it might be rich so I installed 4 EGT probes 120 mm from exhaust faces before changing any jets. My main jet is 255. 3. At 2800 rpm all 4 cylinders are 1200 F, a bit cool for this rpm, engine is smooth as silk. 4. At 3000 rpm number 3 (hottest) is 1275 F, number 2 (coolest) is 1200 F and engine is slightly rough. 5. At full throttle number 1 and 3 are 1300 F a bit high (2 is 1200, 4 is 1250), number 3 CHT is 250 F others about 225 F. One time I saw number 3 almost to 1375 F. Engine is really pretty rough. 6. If number 3 EGT probe was in error it would have been different from the others at 2800 rpm, but it wasn=92t. 7. The throttle movement from 3000 rpm to full throttle is about 20% of the throw with little change in rpm. Number 3 EGT drops quickly after going from full throttle back to about 3000 rpm. 8. I just finished my condition inspection and the compression varied from about 71/80 (#4) to 63/80 (#3). 9. I have a 2 =BC" radiator hose (90 degree bend) going into the carb. 10. How can the EGT=92s be so high at higher throttle settings with a 255 main jet? And most important, what can be causing the rough engine? Thanks, Chuck D. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Rough running 2200
Date: Feb 26, 2008
Chuck, The needle valve seat usually leaks at anything above 2800 because the seat supplied is meant for gravity feed. Also at the high throttle settings the fuel/air intake becomes uneven because of induction pulses in the small induction pipes collector which is less than 1/2L in capacity. I am working on a 3.5L intake manifold to solve my engine which is now fuel injected. During development I found that EGT R was about 100degC greater than EGT L and was told that this is common, but when I increased the butterfly diameter EGT L became 100degC hotter than EGT R. I think the turbulence in that induction collector is disturbing fuel/air distribution and the effect is different at different RPM and worst at WOT. When the fuel/air mix is out of balance the engine runs out of balance or slightly rough because the power strokes are not uniform. On one occasion I had the engine shake badly. Peter H _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Deiterich Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2008 9:18 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Rough running 2200 1. Several flying hours ago my 2200 (solid lifters-#988) started running rough at full throttle (~3140 rpm) and a bit rough about 3000 rpm (95 total hours). The float bowl was running over. My float needle was the one with the weak spring so I put in a new float needle with the stronger spring. Now, no fuel running over, engine off with Facet fuel pump for several minutes. 2. Engine still is rough at high throttle, I thought it might be rich so I installed 4 EGT probes 120 mm from exhaust faces before changing any jets. My main jet is 255. 3. At 2800 rpm all 4 cylinders are 1200 F, a bit cool for this rpm, engine is smooth as silk. 4. At 3000 rpm number 3 (hottest) is 1275 F, number 2 (coolest) is 1200 F and engine is slightly rough. 5. At full throttle number 1 and 3 are 1300 F a bit high (2 is 1200, 4 is 1250), number 3 CHT is 250 F others about 225 F. One time I saw number 3 almost to 1375 F. Engine is really pretty rough. 6. If number 3 EGT probe was in error it would have been different from the others at 2800 rpm, but it wasn=92t. 7. The throttle movement from 3000 rpm to full throttle is about 20% of the throw with little change in rpm. Number 3 EGT drops quickly after going from full throttle back to about 3000 rpm. 8. I just finished my condition inspection and the compression varied from about 71/80 (#4) to 63/80 (#3). 9. I have a 2 =BC" radiator hose (90 degree bend) going into the carb. 10. How can the EGT=92s be so high at higher throttle settings with a 255 main jet? And most important, what can be causing the rough engine? Thanks, Chuck D. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2008
From: gary tackett <garyjoyce1(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Just Highlander 3300
Thanks Don Sorry it took so long to respond. I am in Florida for the winter and had no computer. I spoke with Pete at the Light Sport Convention and he showed me some baffle techniques that may help me. I sure do appreciate your positive response. Gary Tackett ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Morrisey <donmorrisey(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:00:15 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Just Highlander 3300 Gary, if you go to the yahoo jabiru engine email list and search for Fisher Dakota Hawk. There are several builders of that airplane using a standard lyc/conti cowl pressurization baffle system. One builder/pilot in Australia swears by it after having heating issues with an early 3300. However, you shouldn't have an issue if you install the engine and ram air ducts properly. Don. www.donsbushcaddy.com Don Morrisey's Skunkworks Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. Get it now! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2008
From: gary tackett <garyjoyce1(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Just Highlander 3300
Not a Troll, Just new to the Jabiru 2200 in a pusher application. Gary Tackett ----- Original Message ---- From: Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:36:19 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Just Highlander 3300 Glad to see I'm not the only one suspecting this to be a troll.. ;-) Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Morrisey Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 9:00 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Just Highlander 3300 Gary, if you go to the yahoo jabiru engine email list and search for Fisher Dakota Hawk. There are several builders of that airplane using a standard lyc/conti cowl pressurization baffle system. One builder/pilot in Australia swears by it after having heating issues with an early 3300. However, you shouldn't have an issue if you install the engine and ram air ducts properly. Don. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2008
From: gary tackett <garyjoyce1(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Just Highlander 3300
Hi Rich Sorry if I mistyped the engine model, It is a 2200 and is on a Rans S-12XL. It did not get too hot and was only for a short time in which I pulled back on the throttle and cooled it down. I had only 6 hours on the engine before I put it into winter storage and went to Florida for the winter, I haven't been able to respond because I have no computer down here.But, thanks anyway. Gary ----- Original Message ---- From: "N1BZRich(at)aol.com" <N1BZRich(at)aol.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 5:00:44 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Just Highlander 3300 In a message dated 1/16/2008 1:08:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, japhillipsga(at)aol.com writes: Gary, you know your probably correct about that Jab 3300 engine overheating. It probably will overheat and ruin and you'll lose everything. I might be able to help you out with your problem and I was thinking about building an airboat and it might work on it. I'll help you and buy your 3300 from you if your really concerned. Can't really pay you much for an engine that's probably a dud. I'll offer you $2,000. What a bunch of crock. If the Jabiru 3300 is installed correctly using the supplied parts as specified, then you should be able to get the CHTs into the correct range. You can do some adjusting on individual CHTs by placing small deflectors over individual cylinders and by slightly changing the baffle height in front of #1 and #3 which will change the amount of air that goes through the fiber-glass air ducts. Remember, you want high pressure on top of the cylinders and low pressure under them. You can also help the situation by installing a small air dam to help air exit at the aft end of the lower cowling. This of course lowers air pressure under the cylinders and increases the air flow through the cylinders. I have flown seven different Jabiru powered aircraft (six with the 3300 and one with the 2200) and with these adjustments as mentioned above, all have been well within the CHT ranges. The slowest was a Rans S7 and with the 3300 it was a real Super Cub beater. Fun airplane. Next slowest was a Zodiac 601XL which my EAA chapter built with me being the lead technical advisor and once again the air duct adjustments with small deflectors over the cylinders needing more cooling air did the trick. All the other Jabiru powered airplanes that I have flown have been the speedier homebuilts like the Esqual and Lightning. Again, no problems if you install the engine and air ducts as specified. If you continue to have problems, call the folks at Jabiru USA in Tennessee. In my mind, they are the experts. In fact, if you have not been to their Jabiur engine school, you have short changed yourself in your quest for knowledge. Blue Skies, Buz Rich Highly modified Esqual with lots of Lightning stuff and a 3300 Jab that has 416 hours on it in the last 2 years. No problems on it and I run it hard. Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2008
From: "THOMAS SMALL" <tjs22t(at)verizon.net>
Subject: two questions
Pete and Andy, I have one of the first fwf kits for 3300 into Zenith 601. This is the one with the large (too large) airbox that we had to make some mods to in the linkage and fit it up under the firewall shelf. What auto airfilter is used in that box? Is there a K&N filter that those of us with that airbox can use? Any numbers? You handle it? Second, Andy I can remember you writing in detail about the Odyssey batteries and their rather finicky ways when it comes to charging. I have a 625 that is presently on the table in the hangar, used very little because it was no improvement over the cheap 17amh batteries from Batteries.com. Is there hope for this battery (maybe too old) if I get a "correct" charger for the Odyssey line. On the old yahoojabbytalk list you once wrote of a charger that had impressed you - mind briefly repeating that? I have the old small starter (engine 051) and starts in cold wx are fine with the usual preheat routine done in the hangar, however the beast leaves us down if we fly for food and allow it to sit too long. Am I looking at the newer, larger starter?..and how much does that run pricewise? thanks jeff small HDS/3300 315 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim(at)jabirupacific.com" <jim(at)jabirupacific.com>
Subject: two questions
Date: Feb 26, 2008
Hi Jeff The K&N 33-2031-2 fits in the large Jabiru air box. As far as charging the battery I would recommend you put a 10 amp charger on it and charge it till you reach 14.9 volts on a DVM, the turn the charger off! Don't charge it past 15 volts. The current starters are $543.00 Jim McCormick Jabiru Pacific LLC 255 W Fallbrook 202B Fresno, CA 93711 Office 559-431-1701 Fax 559-233-3676 www.jabirupacific.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of THOMAS SMALL Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 AM To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Subject: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Pete and Andy, I have one of the first fwf kits for 3300 into Zenith 601. This is the one with the large (too large) airbox that we had to make some mods to in the linkage and fit it up under the firewall shelf. What auto airfilter is used in that box? Is there a K&N filter that those of us with that airbox can use? Any numbers? You handle it? Second, Andy I can remember you writing in detail about the Odyssey batteries and their rather finicky ways when it comes to charging. I have a 625 that is presently on the table in the hangar, used very little because it was no improvement over the cheap 17amh batteries from Batteries.com. Is there hope for this battery (maybe too old) if I get a "correct" charger for the Odyssey line. On the old yahoojabbytalk list you once wrote of a charger that had impressed you - mind briefly repeating that? I have the old small starter (engine 051) and starts in cold wx are fine with the usual preheat routine done in the hangar, however the beast leaves us down if we fly for food and allow it to sit too long. Am I looking at the newer, larger starter?..and how much does that run pricewise? thanks jeff small HDS/3300 315 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivan" <imap8ntr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: two questions
Date: Feb 26, 2008
Jeff, Jim I have the Odyssey PC625 on my 3300, 20aH. I was also told not to charge it above 15v charger becasue the AGM battery would be ruined. They told me to get a 3 phase charger such as any Odyssey and not a bulk charger like an automobile charger. I got the Odyssey 12Amp battery charger which tops off the battery automatically without going above 14.7v. I think this charger is great for the money @ $85 with shipping. They have slower chargers for less but I wanted one that can do my battery while I am doing the preflight check. I called Odyssey and their technical support is great and they told me what to do. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim(at)jabirupacific.com To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Hi Jeff The K&N 33-2031-2 fits in the large Jabiru air box. As far as charging the battery I would recommend you put a 10 amp charger on it and charge it till you reach 14.9 volts on a DVM, the turn the charger off! Don't charge it past 15 volts. The current starters are $543.00 Jim McCormick Jabiru Pacific LLC 255 W Fallbrook 202B Fresno, CA 93711 Office 559-431-1701 Fax 559-233-3676 www.jabirupacific.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of THOMAS SMALL Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 AM To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Subject: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Pete and Andy, I have one of the first fwf kits for 3300 into Zenith 601. This is the one with the large (too large) airbox that we had to make some mods to in the linkage and fit it up under the firewall shelf. What auto airfilter is used in that box? Is there a K&N filter that those of us with that airbox can use? Any numbers? You handle it? Second, Andy I can remember you writing in detail about the Odyssey batteries and their rather finicky ways when it comes to charging. I have a 625 that is presently on the table in the hangar, used very little because it was no improvement over the cheap 17amh batteries from Batteries.com. Is there hope for this battery (maybe too old) if I get a "correct" charger for the Odyssey line. On the old yahoojabbytalk list you once wrote of a charger that had impressed you - mind briefly repeating that? I have the old small starter (engine 051) and starts in cold wx are fine with the usual preheat routine done in the hangar, however the beast leaves us down if we fly for food and allow it to sit too long. Am I looking at the newer, larger starter?..and how much does that run pricewise? thanks jeff small HDS/3300 315 hours href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 26, 2008
Subject: Re: two questions
I've used these very successfully on SVLA batteries- hook 'em up and forget about 'em: _http://batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_3_ (http://batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_3) _http://batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_2_ (http://batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_2) Mark **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim(at)jabirupacific.com" <jim(at)jabirupacific.com>
Subject: two questions
Date: Feb 26, 2008
Hi Ivan Thank your for the info! Jim McCormick Jabiru Pacific LLC 255 W Fallbrook 202B Fresno, CA 93711 Office 559-431-1701 Fax 559-233-3676 www.jabirupacific.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 3:26 PM To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Jeff, Jim I have the Odyssey PC625 on my 3300, 20aH. I was also told not to charge it above 15v charger becasue the AGM battery would be ruined. They told me to get a 3 phase charger such as any Odyssey and not a bulk charger like an automobile charger. I got the Odyssey 12Amp battery charger which tops off the battery automatically without going above 14.7v. I think this charger is great for the money @ $85 with shipping. They have slower chargers for less but I wanted one that can do my battery while I am doing the preflight check. I called Odyssey and their technical support is great and they told me what to do. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim(at)jabirupacific.com To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Hi Jeff The K&N 33-2031-2 fits in the large Jabiru air box. As far as charging the battery I would recommend you put a 10 amp charger on it and charge it till you reach 14.9 volts on a DVM, the turn the charger off! Don't charge it past 15 volts. The current starters are $543.00 Jim McCormick Jabiru Pacific LLC 255 W Fallbrook 202B Fresno, CA 93711 Office 559-431-1701 Fax 559-233-3676 www.jabirupacific.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of THOMAS SMALL Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 AM To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Subject: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Pete and Andy, I have one of the first fwf kits for 3300 into Zenith 601. This is the one with the large (too large) airbox that we had to make some mods to in the linkage and fit it up under the firewall shelf. What auto airfilter is used in that box? Is there a K&N filter that those of us with that airbox can use? Any numbers? You handle it? Second, Andy I can remember you writing in detail about the Odyssey batteries and their rather finicky ways when it comes to charging. I have a 625 that is presently on the table in the hangar, used very little because it was no improvement over the cheap 17amh batteries from Batteries.com. Is there hope for this battery (maybe too old) if I get a "correct" charger for the Odyssey line. On the old yahoojabbytalk list you once wrote of a charger that had impressed you - mind briefly repeating that? I have the old small starter (engine 051) and starts in cold wx are fine with the usual preheat routine done in the hangar, however the beast leaves us down if we fly for food and allow it to sit too long. Am I looking at the newer, larger starter?..and how much does that run pricewise? thanks jeff small HDS/3300 315 hours href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivan" <imap8ntr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: two questions
Date: Feb 26, 2008
Jim No problem. You have been a great help to us all many times. Thanks Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim(at)jabirupacific.com To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:18 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Hi Ivan Thank your for the info! Jim McCormick Jabiru Pacific LLC 255 W Fallbrook 202B Fresno, CA 93711 Office 559-431-1701 Fax 559-233-3676 www.jabirupacific.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 3:26 PM To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Jeff, Jim I have the Odyssey PC625 on my 3300, 20aH. I was also told not to charge it above 15v charger becasue the AGM battery would be ruined. They told me to get a 3 phase charger such as any Odyssey and not a bulk charger like an automobile charger. I got the Odyssey 12Amp battery charger which tops off the battery automatically without going above 14.7v. I think this charger is great for the money @ $85 with shipping. They have slower chargers for less but I wanted one that can do my battery while I am doing the preflight check. I called Odyssey and their technical support is great and they told me what to do. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim(at)jabirupacific.com To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Hi Jeff The K&N 33-2031-2 fits in the large Jabiru air box. As far as charging the battery I would recommend you put a 10 amp charger on it and charge it till you reach 14.9 volts on a DVM, the turn the charger off! Don't charge it past 15 volts. The current starters are $543.00 Jim McCormick Jabiru Pacific LLC 255 W Fallbrook 202B Fresno, CA 93711 Office 559-431-1701 Fax 559-233-3676 www.jabirupacific.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of THOMAS SMALL Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:38 AM To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Subject: JabiruEngine-List: two questions Pete and Andy, I have one of the first fwf kits for 3300 into Zenith 601. This is the one with the large (too large) airbox that we had to make some mods to in the linkage and fit it up under the firewall shelf. What auto airfilter is used in that box? Is there a K&N filter that those of us with that airbox can use? Any numbers? You handle it? Second, Andy I can remember you writing in detail about the Odyssey batteries and their rather finicky ways when it comes to charging. I have a 625 that is presently on the table in the hangar, used very little because it was no improvement over the cheap 17amh batteries from Batteries.com. Is there hope for this battery (maybe too old) if I get a "correct" charger for the Odyssey line. On the old yahoojabbytalk list you once wrote of a charger that had impressed you - mind briefly repeating that? I have the old small starter (engine 051) and starts in cold wx are fine with the usual preheat routine done in the hangar, however the beast leaves us down if we fly for food and allow it to sit too long. Am I looking at the newer, larger starter?..and how much does that run pricewise? thanks jeff small HDS/3300 315 hours href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2008
From: "THOMAS SMALL" <tjs22t(at)verizon.net>
Subject: some charging info for Odyssey batteries
Somewhat helpful...jeff http://www.odysseybatteries.com/charging.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivan" <imap8ntr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Odyssey charger
Date: Feb 27, 2008
Just FYI, at a member's request: I got my Odyssey Ultimizer 12A at Battery-Web.com. I am placing a link to their website below. Their published price for the charger is now $88: http://www.batteryweb.com/odyssey-ultimizer.cfm Hope this helps. Ivan Phoenix, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 28, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)cruzcom.com>
Subject: Re: 2200 Accessory Alternator (was Digest...)
The B&C SD-8 may be what you're looking for. It fits the 3300 accessory pad -- not sure about the 2200. See http://bandc.biz Ron On 2/28/08, Bob Haas wrote: > > checkpoint2(at)comcast.net> > > Any one, is there an alternator suitable for the 2200 that fits on > The rear drive pad? BH N 380 BH. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: 2200 Accessory Alternator (was Digest...)
Date: Feb 29, 2008
Bob, Just curious to know about any problem you had with the PM alternator as supplied ? Regards Peter H _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Shannon Sent: Friday, 29 February 2008 8:52 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 2200 Accessory Alternator (was Digest...) The B&C SD-8 may be what you're looking for. It fits the 3300 accessory pad -- not sure about the 2200. See http://bandc.biz Ron On 2/28/08, Bob Haas wrote: Any one, is there an alternator suitable for the 2200 that fits on The rear drive pad? BH N 380 BH. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Haas" <checkpoint2(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 2200 Accessory Alternator (was Digest...)
Date: Feb 29, 2008
No problems, I would like more amperage cushion. B.H. _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:13 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 2200 Accessory Alternator (was Digest...) Bob, Just curious to know about any problem you had with the PM alternator as supplied ? Regards Peter H _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Shannon Sent: Friday, 29 February 2008 8:52 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: 2200 Accessory Alternator (was Digest...) The B&C SD-8 may be what you're looking for. It fits the 3300 accessory pad -- not sure about the 2200. See http://bandc.biz Ron On 2/28/08, Bob Haas wrote: Any one, is there an alternator suitable for the 2200 that fits on The rear drive pad? BH N 380 BH. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Kitplanes Article
Date: Feb 29, 2008
I have an article in the April Kitplanes magazine which some of you might find interesting. Chuck D. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Silvester" <andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: US Jabiru dealership for sale
Date: Mar 06, 2008
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. is selling its Jabiru aircraft and Engines Dealership business, currently based in Florida. The dealership has a non-exclusive USA-wide sales territory and contracts direct with Jabiru Aircraft in Australia for importation and sales of Jabiru aircraft and engines within USA. For further information and enquiries please contact andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com and not through this list. Thanks. Andy Silvester www.suncoastjabiru.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 08, 2008
Subject: Jbiru 3300 Distributor Cap and Rotor
Hey guys: Can anyone tell me What the correct parts are to replace the distributor caps and rotors on my Jabiru 3300? I think the proper parts might involve a 1970's car, but I am not sure. I know the proper Jabiru part numbers are PG 0190N (rotor) and PG 0180N for the cap. but I do not know what the *GB74 and *BH73 stand for. Thanks **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jabiru USA" <info(at)usjabiru.com>
Subject: Jbiru 3300 Distributor Cap and Rotor
Date: Mar 09, 2008
The cap and rotor are Bosch ignition parts. Bosch numbers are GB73 and GB74. I believe they are from a Holden Automobile. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 5:12 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jbiru 3300 Distributor Cap and Rotor Hey guys: Can anyone tell me What the correct parts are to replace the distributor caps and rotors on my Jabiru 3300? I think the proper parts might involve a 1970's car, but I am not sure. I know the proper Jabiru part numbers are PG 0190N (rotor) and PG 0180N for the cap. but I do not know what the *GB74 and *BH73 stand for. Thanks _____ It's Tax Time! Get <http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001> tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 3300 in A Kitfox IV Classic
From: "bigboyzt0yz" <bigboyzt0yz(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 13, 2008
Thinking about changing out my 80 hp rotax 912 UL and upgrading to the 3300. what do I have to do and what can I look forward to? -------- Lee Fritz in owings Mills Md. 2002 KitFox-IV Classic/912UL/Warp drive prop/100% Complete (just adding the Extras now) /71 hours time on plane since Aug 07 "Have your feet on the Pedals and keep reaching for the sky". Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169749#169749 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Horizontal Prop
From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
Date: Mar 13, 2008
I am getting ready to install my propeller on my 3300. I know I had somewhere in my notes that there was a recommended way to position the prop when installed and have a pretty good chance that it would stop horizontal when the engine was turned off. It was something like place cylinder #xxx at position xxx and place the prop at angle xxx. I searched the archives here and could not find it either. Does anybody have this they could share?? Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail & wings completed and fueslage pretty well done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169750#169750 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kayberg(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 14, 2008
Subject: Re: 3300 in A Kitfox IV Classic
In a message dated 3/14/2008 12:45:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bigboyzt0yz(at)yahoo.com writes: Thinking about changing out my 80 hp rotax 912 UL and upgrading to the 3300. what do I have to do and what can I look forward to? -------- Lee Fritz in owings Mills Md. 2002 KitFox-IV Classic/912UL/Warp drive prop/100% Complete (just adding the Extras now) /71 hours time on plane since Aug 07 "Have your feet on the Pedals and keep reaching for the sky". Lee, I live near Pikesville and would like to speak to you about selling you a Jab engine. I tried to email you, but it bounced. Email me back at _kayberg(at)aol.com_ (mailto:kayberg(at)aol.com) or call my cell at 443-506-7636. Lets talk planes, engines and airports!!! Doug Koenigsberg **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jabiru USA" <info(at)usjabiru.com>
Subject: 3300 in A Kitfox IV Classic
Date: Mar 14, 2008
The best information will come from Dave Jalanti, our Kitfox expert from Hudson NY. Dave works with us and has installed Jabiru engines in a number of Kitfox aircraft and has been the advisor on many others. Contact Dave at dave(at)jabirups.com His web site is www.jabirups.com His business is called Jabiru Power Solutions. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bigboyzt0yz Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:42 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300 in A Kitfox IV Classic Thinking about changing out my 80 hp rotax 912 UL and upgrading to the 3300. what do I have to do and what can I look forward to? -------- Lee Fritz in owings Mills Md. 2002 KitFox-IV Classic/912UL/Warp drive prop/100% Complete (just adding the Extras now) /71 hours time on plane since Aug 07 "Have your feet on the Pedals and keep reaching for the sky". Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169749#169749 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Electrical Newbie Question
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>
Date: Mar 15, 2008
I have a 3300A and am planning the electrical system for my Zodiac XL. I've looked at what others have done and absorbed much, but still have questions. I wish to keep things as simple as possible so hopefully you'll share your ideas with me. Alternator / Regulator - I note that the Jabiru wiring diagram shows an unfused #10 to wire from battery to regulator (red wire) and an unfused #16 to the main bus (yellow wire.) What I would like suggestions on is the best way to disconnect the alternator from the main bus in the event that I need to run soley on battery power due to a failure of some type. Would a switch on the yellow wire suffice or do I need to break the red wire as well? Any recommendations as to fusing? Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170007#170007 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 15, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)cruzcom.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical Newbie Question
Tim, Because your specifics are related to other issues in your system design as a whole (and Jabiru's diagrams are not the last word) I'd highly recommend that you get a copy of _The Aerolectric Connection_ by Bob Nuckolls, from http:/aeroelectric.com It will answer many of your questions, and has numerous well thought out sample wiring schematics for whole systems, as well as specialized subsystems (ground power, aux. batteries, various protection circuits, etc.) It's only $20, or if you like to read things on your screen, you can download a PDF of the whole thing for free. You should also consider subscribing to the Aeroelectric Connection mailing list at http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Ron On 3/15/08, Tim Juhl wrote: > > > I have a 3300A and am planning the electrical system for my Zodiac > XL. I've looked at what others have done and absorbed much, but still have > questions. I wish to keep things as simple as possible so hopefully you'll > share your ideas with me. > > Alternator / Regulator - I note that the Jabiru wiring diagram shows an > unfused #10 to wire from battery to regulator (red wire) and an unfused #16 > to the main bus (yellow wire.) > > What I would like suggestions on is the best way to disconnect the > alternator from the main bus in the event that I need to run soley on > battery power due to a failure of some type. Would a switch on the yellow > wire suffice or do I need to break the red wire as well? Any > recommendations as to fusing? > > Tim > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 15, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)cruzcom.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical Newbie Question
[RESENDING DUE TO APPARENT ERROR] Tim, Because your specifics are related to other issues in your system design as a whole (and Jabiru's diagrams are not the last word) I'd highly recommend that you get a copy of _The Aerolectric Connection_ by Bob Nuckolls, from http:/aeroelectric.com It will answer many of your questions, and has numerous well thought out sample wiring schematics for whole systems, as well as specialized subsystems (ground power, aux. batteries, various protection circuits, etc.) It's only $20, or if you like to read things on your screen, you can download a PDF of the whole thing for free. You should also consider subscribing to the Aeroelectric Connection mailing list at http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Ron On 3/15/08, Tim Juhl wrote: > > > I have a 3300A and am planning the electrical system for my Zodiac > XL. I've looked at what others have done and absorbed much, but still have > questions. I wish to keep things as simple as possible so hopefully you'll > share your ideas with me. > > Alternator / Regulator - I note that the Jabiru wiring diagram shows an > unfused #10 to wire from battery to regulator (red wire) and an unfused #16 > to the main bus (yellow wire.) > > What I would like suggestions on is the best way to disconnect the > alternator from the main bus in the event that I need to run soley on > battery power due to a failure of some type. Would a switch on the yellow > wire suffice or do I need to break the red wire as well? Any > recommendations as to fusing? > > Tim > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Horizontal Prop
From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
Date: Mar 17, 2008
I guess I can follow-up to my own question. I received a note pointing me to the http://www.jabiru.flyer.co.uk/ web site. Here you will find the following comment: Stand in front of the prop looking back towards the flywheel. Position the flywheel so that the magnets are vertical. Position the prop so that it is located in the prop guides that give it an 11.00 o'clock position. It should now stop in the horizontal. This worked for me. I ran my engine for the first time this weekend and on three of the four shutdowns, the prop stopped horizontal. On the one other shutdown, is stopped at 2 o'clock/8 o'clock. This is good enough for me. Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail & wings completed and fueslage pretty well done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170387#170387 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Keith Pickford" <kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Horizontal Prop
Date: Mar 18, 2008
Don't know about the 6 but on the 2200 I put #1 cylinder top D C then put the prop vertical. Stops horizontally 9 out of 10 Keith -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 3:46 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Horizontal Prop I guess I can follow-up to my own question. I received a note pointing me to the http://www.jabiru.flyer.co.uk/ web site. Here you will find the following comment: Stand in front of the prop looking back towards the flywheel. Position the flywheel so that the magnets are vertical. Position the prop so that it is located in the prop guides that give it an 11.00 o'clock position. It should now stop in the horizontal. This worked for me. I ran my engine for the first time this weekend and on three of the four shutdowns, the prop stopped horizontal. On the one other shutdown, is stopped at 2 o'clock/8 o'clock. This is good enough for me. Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail & wings completed and fueslage pretty well done. Working engine and electrical systems. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170387#170387 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical Newbie Question
From: "wypaul" <loadout(at)bresnan.net>
Date: Mar 17, 2008
Tim, Your best bet on electrical questions is to join aeroelectric-list@matronics.com . Bob is the man in the know and buy his book, it is the best money you will spend in the building process. Here is a link to his website http://www.aeroelectric.com/. He has diagrams that address all of your questions and more. Paul Q2 Jabiru 3300 550 hrs -------- Paul Spackman Q-2 Jabiru 3300 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170483#170483 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 17, 2008
Subject: ne-List:New Topic
Good Evening All, Got home last night after attending the Friday through Sunday Jabiru Engine Operators Course presented by Jabiru USA at Shelbyville, Tennessee. Well worth the time and funds expended. I recommend it highly to all who operate or intend to operate a Jabiru engine. PS. I also agree that Bob N's information and guidance is very valuable. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/17/2008 5:39:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time, loadout(at)bresnan.net writes: --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "wypaul" Tim, Your best bet on electrical questions is to join aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com . Bob is the man in the know and buy his book, it is the best money you will spend in the building process. Here is a link to his website http://www.aeroelectric.com/. He has diagrams that address all of your questions and more. Paul Q2 Jabiru 3300 550 hrs **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
From: "pequeajim" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 21, 2008
I am wondering if any of you are using a split master switch with your Jabiru, and if so, how did you wire the regulator side? Linda, I thought you guys did this? I am at the point where I would like to wire this switch and am wondering how I should do it? Jim! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171534#171534 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "T. Graziano" <tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 03/21/08
Date: Mar 22, 2008
I use a Cessna Type Alt/Master split switch, which came with my Power Panel. The Alt, which usually provides power for the Alt Field in a regular alternator (the Jab has a permanent magnet alternator), provides +12V to a Radio Shack, 12V - 30 Amp relay when the alt switch is ON. The "Red" wire from my voltage regulator goes to the relay and then to the master solenoid. The master solenoid also has a line from the battery, so in effect the alternator provides power to the battery also when the relay is on, i.e Alt ON. I also have a 30 Amp fuse in the line. I have the "yellow wire" (voltage sense wire for the alternator) attached straight to the batt + Tony Graziano 601XL/Jab3300; N493TG; 359 hrs ----- Original Message ----- > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch > From: "pequeajim" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> > > > I am wondering if any of you are using a split master switch with your > Jabiru, > and if so, how did you wire the regulator side? > > Linda, I thought you guys did this? > > I am at the point where I would like to wire this switch and am wondering > how I > should do it? > > Jim! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171534#171534 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
From: "KC7HFA" <kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net>
Date: Mar 22, 2008
I used the split master on my Jabiru 3300. If I remember correctly I took the yellow wire from the regulator and ran it to one pole of the "Alt" split switch. I then jumped the other pole of the "Alt" switch over to on side of the "Master" switch. Note: If the "Alt" switch is not "ON" with the engine running, you will NOT get a tachometer reading... Needless to say this issue caused me a lot of grief, until I realized I was causing my own problem! I can verify the exact schematic upon request. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL Jabiru 3300 Completed and Flying!~ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171722#171722 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Morning Ron, I am absolutely, totally, and completely befuddled as to how the alternator works on the Jabiru engine. When I ask questions, I am told it works just like all other permanent magnet alternators, but I can find no instructional documentation that will explain how such alternators are supposed to work. What I seem to get for an answer to my question is direction as to which wire to hook where. What I want is instructional material that will tell my how and why it works. It is very difficult to trouble shot anything which I do not understand. Can you or anyone else direct me to a source for such education? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:10:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "KC7HFA" I used the split master on my Jabiru 3300. If I remember correctly I took the yellow wire from the regulator and ran it to one pole of the "Alt" split switch. I then jumped the other pole of the "Alt" switch over to on side of the "Master" switch. Note: If the "Alt" switch is not "ON" with the engine running, you will NOT get a tachometer reading... Needless to say this issue caused me a lot of grief, until I realized I was causing my own problem! I can verify the exact schematic upon request. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL Jabiru 3300 Completed and Flying!~ **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
From: "KC7HFA" <kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net>
Date: Mar 22, 2008
I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL Jabiru 3300 Completed and Flying!~ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171729#171729 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Ronco" <joe(at)halzel.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Chapter 3 in The AeroElectric Connection Book talks about PM alternators. Joe R From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:22 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Ron, I am absolutely, totally, and completely befuddled as to how the alternator works on the Jabiru engine. When I ask questions, I am told it works just like all other permanent magnet alternators, but I can find no instructional documentation that will explain how such alternators are supposed to work. What I seem to get for an answer to my question is direction as to which wire to hook where. What I want is instructional material that will tell my how and why it works. It is very difficult to trouble shot anything which I do not understand. Can you or anyone else direct me to a source for such education? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:10:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: I used the split master on my Jabiru 3300. If I remember correctly I took the yellow wire from the regulator and ran it to one pole of the "Alt" split switch. I then jumped the other pole of the "Alt" switch over to on side of the "Master" switch. Note: If the "Alt" switch is not "ON" with the engine running, you will NOT get a tachometer reading... Needless to say this issue caused me a lot of grief, until I realized I was causing my own problem! I can verify the exact schematic upon request. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL Jabiru 3300 Completed and Flying!~ _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Morning Ron, I graduated from the Aviation Electrician Mate training at Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, in 1947 (top man in my class by the way) but can recall no training concerning permanent magnet alternators! Thanks for the reference. I will get to studying right away. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "KC7HFA" I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL Jabiru 3300 Completed and Flying!~ **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Morning Once Again Ron, That information has been very helpful in directing me to some of the problems I had wondered about. Do you have any idea how sophisticated is the controlling device associated with the Jabiru? Sounds like Evinrude has done quite well! The diodes I do understand. They were being discussed as the future when I went through school and I have kept abreast of such development. All of the principles mentioned are still the same as before, full wave rectification and all, but I still do not have good handle on the voltage regulation fine points. It appears as if they just sink excess current. Sounds kinda hairy to those of us familiar with power conservationist attitudes. My training was in the day of carbon pile regulators. Thanks again, I now know that I can reference outboard motors for more information. Have you found any documentation that is specific to how Jabiru controls or regulates the output? Is there any sort of over voltage protection provided? While I am not generally a fan of "Crow Bar" protection. this might be used here to good advantage. It would be a shame to blow several thousand dollars worth of electronics if a battery connection were to fail. So much to be learned!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "KC7HFA" I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Afternoon Joe, Gad! I should have looked! Thanks Joe. Once again, I will have to call upon 'Lectric Bob for my rescue. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:48:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, joe(at)halzel.com writes: Chapter 3 in The AeroElectric Connection Book talks about PM alternators. Joe R **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 22, 2008
There is a schematic of the regulator internals in the Jabiru manual. -- Craig From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:47 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Once Again Ron, That information has been very helpful in directing me to some of the problems I had wondered about. Do you have any idea how sophisticated is the controlling device associated with the Jabiru? Sounds like Evinrude has done quite well! The diodes I do understand. They were being discussed as the future when I went through school and I have kept abreast of such development. All of the principles mentioned are still the same as before, full wave rectification and all, but I still do not have good handle on the voltage regulation fine points. It appears as if they just sink excess current. Sounds kinda hairy to those of us familiar with power conservationist attitudes. My training was in the day of carbon pile regulators. Thanks again, I now know that I can reference outboard motors for more information. Have you found any documentation that is specific to how Jabiru controls or regulates the output? Is there any sort of over voltage protection provided? While I am not generally a fan of "Crow Bar" protection. this might be used here to good advantage. It would be a shame to blow several thousand dollars worth of electronics if a battery connection were to fail. So much to be learned!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Afternoon Craig, I did read that, but all it says is that if the voltage gets too high, it cuts off! No description of how it is supposed to work, how it cuts off and of what happens to the current flow and operating temperatures when it is cut off. What I am looking for is an explanation of the theory and the actual procedures used. I read Bob Nuckolls' explanation and the one so kindly provided by Ron about outboard motors. The most descriptive thus far has been the Evinrude material. I still have not seen anything that tells us how the current and/or voltage is regulated or controlled. It appears that crude systems just sink it to ground and generate heat doing so while Evinrude has seemingly found a way to mitigate the disadvantages of doing that. Still searching for the "Rest Of The Story"! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 12:27:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, craig(at)craigandjean.com writes: There is a schematic of the regulator internals in the Jabiru manual. -- Craig **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Bob, You are right about the excess current it is taken to earth at the base of the regulator which should be mounted on a heat sink panel. AC output from the PM alternator varies with RPM and the excess energy is bled off to earth during the rectification/regulation process. It sounds a bit primitive but it is simple and effective. Over voltage protection is worthwile in case the regulator burns out. Peter H _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2008 2:47 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Once Again Ron, That information has been very helpful in directing me to some of the problems I had wondered about. Do you have any idea how sophisticated is the controlling device associated with the Jabiru? Sounds like Evinrude has done quite well! The diodes I do understand. They were being discussed as the future when I went through school and I have kept abreast of such development. All of the principles mentioned are still the same as before, full wave rectification and all, but I still do not have good handle on the voltage regulation fine points. It appears as if they just sink excess current. Sounds kinda hairy to those of us familiar with power conservationist attitudes. My training was in the day of carbon pile regulators. Thanks again, I now know that I can reference outboard motors for more information. Have you found any documentation that is specific to how Jabiru controls or regulates the output? Is there any sort of over voltage protection provided? While I am not generally a fan of "Crow Bar" protection. this might be used here to good advantage. It would be a shame to blow several thousand dollars worth of electronics if a battery connection were to fail. So much to be learned!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Evening Peter, Thanks for the information. Do most Jabiru operators use some sort of over voltage protection? Is there a common method that has been successful? As I am sure you can tell, my knowledge in this area is woefully inadequate. Are there any good sources of data that I can study? If a contactor was opened by a crowbar or other over voltage protection such that it would save the electronics, would the alternator still be damaged or is there some modality that would cause it to reduce it's output? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:51:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com writes: Bob, You are right about the excess current it is taken to earth at the base of the regulator which should be mounted on a heat sink panel. AC output from the PM alternator varies with RPM and the excess energy is bled off to earth during the rectification/regulation process. It sounds a bit primitive but it is simple and effective. Over voltage protection is worthwhile in case the regulator burns out. Peter H **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Bob, Use the B&C over voltage protection system (504-1 PM-OV) designed for permanent magnet alternators. See http://www.bandc.biz/PmOVdesc.html Ron On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 7:24 PM, wrote: > Good Evening Peter, > > Thanks for the information. > > Do most Jabiru operators use some sort of over voltage protection? Is > there a common method that has been successful? > > As I am sure you can tell, my knowledge in this area is woefully > inadequate. > > Are there any good sources of data that I can study? > > If a contactor was opened by a crowbar or other over voltage protection > such that it would save the electronics, would the alternator still be > damaged or is there some modality that would cause it to reduce it's output? > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Evening Ron, I will contact Bill on Monday. Great thought! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 9:08:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM writes: Bob, Use the B&C over voltage protection system (504-1 PM-OV) designed for permanent magnet alternators. See _http://www.bandc.biz/PmOVdesc.html_ (http://www.bandc.biz/PmOVdesc.html) Ron **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
From: "wypaul" <loadout(at)bresnan.net>
Date: Mar 22, 2008
lectric Bob is the man for these question. I am using Bob's crowbar setup for over voltage protection with the Jabiru but flew behind a Revmaster for 200 hrs. without it. Ya don't need it tell you do. Bob's friends at B & C will be another good source of info. http://www.bandc.biz/parts.html Paul -------- Paul Spackman Q-2 Jabiru 3300 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171843#171843 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
That's where the confusion starts. If it has a permanent magnet it is called a generator or a magneto. If this is the case you you can shut off the output by switching the heavy wire that goes from the magneto to the battery. Generators and magnetos are somewhat limited in their capacity to generate electrical power so over voltage is not generally a consideration. Alternators, instead of spinning a large magnet inside a bunch of coils, spins an electromagnet instead. By varying the voltage hitting the electromagnet on a wire marked F for field or field coil, the output of the alternator can be varied... the more power delivered to the field coil through the F connector the more current produced by the alternator. The regulator controls this power output. The idea is two fold... First the current in the field coil is relatively small so a small current can control a much larger output current so the large contactors that used to be found in early cars and trucks are not needed. If too much current is fed to the F connector the alternator can actually go into overvoltage... This usually turns on a little light and at the same time chops the power to the field coil so the output of the alternator drops to 0. Either way a switch designed to take the maximum current output of the alternator or generator can be placed in the larger power wire between the alternator and the battery or main buss depending on how your plane is wired. Alternators all produce alternating current AC which needs to be turned into direct current DC. This is usually done through a little device called a rectifier bridge. This bridge is constructed by four considerably large diodes. Some alternators have one or two rectifier bridges built right into them. The reason a shut off switch in the large wire is a good idea is encase you burn out one or more of the diodes and short out your battery.... Actually a circuit breaker is also a good idea. The F lead, a ground and possibly a voltage sensing lead are generally connected via a plug in with a specific shape for your alternator..... The power output on the alternator is generally a lug with a nut to hold the wire on the lug and sometimes a plastic insulator around the lug. If your generating device only has one wire coming form it when it is a permanent magnet type and the voltage regulator then will be a set of contacts which are spring loaded and make and break the charging cycles. Such generators generally are designed to produce DC without the use of a rectifier bridge.. Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 12:52 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Ron, I am absolutely, totally, and completely befuddled as to how the alternator works on the Jabiru engine. When I ask questions, I am told it works just like all other permanent magnet alternators, but I can find no instructional documentation that will explain how such alternators are supposed to work. What I seem to get for an answer to my question is direction as to which wire to hook where. What I want is instructional material that will tell my how and why it works. It is very difficult to trouble shot anything which I do not understand. Can you or anyone else direct me to a source for such education? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:10:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: I used the split master on my Jabiru 3300. If I remember correctly I took the yellow wire from the regulator and ran it to one pole of the "Alt" split switch. I then jumped the other pole of the "Alt" switch over to on side of the "Master" switch. Note: If the "Alt" switch is not "ON" with the engine running, you will NOT get a tachometer reading... Needless to say this issue caused me a lot of grief, until I realized I was causing my own problem! I can verify the exact schematic upon request. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL Jabiru 3300 Completed and Flying!~ _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Thanks Noel. We're gaining on it! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Do not Archive In a message dated 3/22/2008 9:46:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes: That=99s where the confusion starts. If it has a permanent magnet it is called a generator or a magneto. If this is the case you you can shut off t he output by switching the heavy wire that goes from the magneto to the batter y. Generators and magnetos are somewhat limited in their capacity to generate electrical power so over voltage is not generally a consideration. Alternators, instead of spinning a large magnet inside a bunch of coils, spins an electromagnet instead. By varying the voltage hitting the electromagnet on a wire marked F for field or field coil, the output of the alternator can be varied... the more power delivered to the field coil through the F connector the more current produced by the alternator. The regulator contr ols this power output. The idea is two fold... First the current in the fiel d coil is relatively small so a small current can control a much larger outpu t current so the large contactors that used to be found in early cars and tru cks are not needed. If too much current is fed to the F connector the alternat or can actually go into overvoltage... This usually turns on a little light a nd at the same time chops the power to the field coil so the output of the alternator drops to 0. Either way a switch designed to take the maximum current output of the alternator or generator can be placed in the larger power wire between the alternator and the battery or main buss depending on how your plane is wire d. Alternators all produce alternating current AC which needs to be turned int o direct current DC. This is usually done through a little device called a rectifier bridge. This bridge is constructed by four considerably large diodes. Some alternators have one or two rectifier bridges built right int o them. The reason a shut off switch in the large wire is a good idea is encase you burn out one or more of the diodes and short out your battery.... Actually a circuit breaker is also a good idea. The F lead, a ground and possibly a voltage sensing lead are generally connected via a plug in with a specific shape for your alternator..... The power output on the alternator is generally a lug with a nut to hold the wire on the lug and sometimes a plastic insulator around the lug. If your generating device only has one wire coming form it when it is a permanent magnet type and the voltage regulator then will be a set of conta cts which are spring loaded and make and break the charging cycles. Such generators generally are designed to produce DC without the use of a rectif ier bridge.. Noel **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aol hom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
I just googled jabiru Schematic and came up with this: (top of thepage!) www.us <http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf> jabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf Everything you wanted to know about Jabiru engines and more besides... Check out page 54 for a circuit diagram. That diagram shows the output to the battery being switched ( Master) and protected by a fuse link. The feed to the main buss is not switched or protected.... I'd recommend a breaker of at least the capacity of the alternator. Funny on page 57 they say to hook up the battery direct... I don't htink they looked at their own schematic and that's what I'd go by. According to page 56 you can put a switch on the red wire that comes from pin #5 on the voltage regulator and then feed the output of that switch to the main buss. A word of caution here the solid state ( lots of diodes and transistors) rectifier/regulator may not be able to stand switching the alternator on and off during normal flight so save turning off the line to the main buss as an emergency procedure. Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:17 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Once Again Ron, That information has been very helpful in directing me to some of the problems I had wondered about. Do you have any idea how sophisticated is the controlling device associated with the Jabiru? Sounds like Evinrude has done quite well! The diodes I do understand. They were being discussed as the future when I went through school and I have kept abreast of such development. All of the principles mentioned are still the same as before, full wave rectification and all, but I still do not have good handle on the voltage regulation fine points. It appears as if they just sink excess current. Sounds kinda hairy to those of us familiar with power conservationist attitudes. My training was in the day of carbon pile regulators. Thanks again, I now know that I can reference outboard motors for more information. Have you found any documentation that is specific to how Jabiru controls or regulates the output? Is there any sort of over voltage protection provided? While I am not generally a fan of "Crow Bar" protection. this might be used here to good advantage. It would be a shame to blow several thousand dollars worth of electronics if a battery connection were to fail. So much to be learned!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
On the left side of the schematic on page 54 (?) you see the basic rectifier bridge. The right hand side has a number of transistors which act as valves to keep the output of the generator (alternator) consistent. The wire shown running across the top and down to the master switch is the one that tells the transistors how much to turn on or off. All that stuff is inside the regulator and is not adjustable. Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:10 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Afternoon Craig, I did read that, but all it says is that if the voltage gets too high, it cuts off! No description of how it is supposed to work, how it cuts off and of what happens to the current flow and operating temperatures when it is cut off. What I am looking for is an explanation of the theory and the actual procedures used. I read Bob Nuckolls' explanation and the one so kindly provided by Ron about outboard motors. The most descriptive thus far has been the Evinrude material. I still have not seen anything that tells us how the current and/or voltage is regulated or controlled. It appears that crude systems just sink it to ground and generate heat doing so while Evinrude has seemingly found a way to mitigate the disadvantages of doing that. Still searching for the "Rest Of The Story"! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 12:27:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, craig(at)craigandjean.com writes: There is a schematic of the regulator internals in the Jabiru manual. -- Craig _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Nothing with a turbine would have one! They also use variable displacement pumps to keep their alternators turning at a constant speed. Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 1:26 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Ron, I graduated from the Aviation Electrician Mate training at Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, in 1947 (top man in my class by the way) but can recall no training concerning permanent magnet alternators! Thanks for the reference. I will get to studying right away. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL Jabiru 3300 Completed and Flying!~ _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Evening Noel, I note that the one you googled is dated as revision 4. My copy is revision 3 and I see that revision 4 shows all new pages! I guess I will have to print a whole new manual. I wonder if they really di d revise every page or if they just decided to list all of them as new? That's an awful lot of wasted paper! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:21:22 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes: I just googled jabiru Schematic and came up with this: (top of the page!) _www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf_ (http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf) Everything you wanted to know about Jabiru engines and more besides... Check out page 54 for a circuit diagram. That diagram shows the output to the battery being switched ( Master) and protected by a fuse link. The feed to the main buss is not switched or protected.... I=99d recommend a breaker of at least the capacity of the alternator. Funny on page 57 they say to hook up the battery direct... I don=99t htink they looked at their own schematic and that=99 s what I=99d go by. According to page 56 you can put a switch on the red wire that comes from pin #5 on the voltage regulator and then feed the output of that switch to the main buss. A word of caution here the solid state ( lots of diodes and transistors) rectifier/regulator may not be able to stand switching the alternator on and off during normal flight so save turning off the line to the main buss as an emergency procedure. Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B @aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:17 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Once Again Ron, That information has been very helpful in directing me to some of the problems I had wondered about. Do you have any idea how sophisticated is th e controlling device associated with the Jabiru? Sounds like Evinrude has do ne quite well! The diodes I do understand. They were being discussed as the future when I went through school and I have kept abreast of such development. All of the principles mentioned are still the same as before, full wave rectification a nd all, but I still do not have good handle on the voltage regulation fine points. It appears as if they just sink excess current. Sounds kinda hairy to those of us familiar with power conservationist attitudes. My training was in the day of carbon pile regulators. Thanks again, I now know that I can reference outboard motors for more information. Have you found any documentation that is specific to how Jabiru controls or regulates the output? Is there any sort of over voltage protection provided? While I am not generally a fan of "Crow Bar" protection. this might be used here to good advantage. It would be a shame to blow several thousand dollars worth of el ectronics if a battery connection were to fail. So much to be learned!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "KC7HFA" I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps . -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL ____________________________________ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. _Watch the video on AOL Home_ (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aol hom0003000000000 1) . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aol hom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Ah yes! The vaunted Vicker's Drive. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Do Not Archive In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:27:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes: Nothing with a turbine would have one! They also use variable displacement pumps to keep their alternators turning at a constant speed. Noel **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
The regulator case itself should be a heat sink. In this case the regulator actually workd as a transistor controlled voltage divider circuit. The fuse link protects the battery and as I said I also recommend a switch or better yet a circuit breaker between pin 5 of the regulator and the main buss. Output is 20 amp continuous I think I would try a 20A breaker and if you start blowing it install a load meter and a 30A breaker. Under no circumstances though load the alternator past 20A continuous duty Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:18 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Bob, You are right about the excess current it is taken to earth at the base of the regulator which should be mounted on a heat sink panel. AC output from the PM alternator varies with RPM and the excess energy is bled off to earth during the rectification/regulation process. It sounds a bit primitive but it is simple and effective. Over voltage protection is worthwile in case the regulator burns out. Peter H _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2008 2:47 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Once Again Ron, That information has been very helpful in directing me to some of the problems I had wondered about. Do you have any idea how sophisticated is the controlling device associated with the Jabiru? Sounds like Evinrude has done quite well! The diodes I do understand. They were being discussed as the future when I went through school and I have kept abreast of such development. All of the principles mentioned are still the same as before, full wave rectification and all, but I still do not have good handle on the voltage regulation fine points. It appears as if they just sink excess current. Sounds kinda hairy to those of us familiar with power conservationist attitudes. My training was in the day of carbon pile regulators. Thanks again, I now know that I can reference outboard motors for more information. Have you found any documentation that is specific to how Jabiru controls or regulates the output? Is there any sort of over voltage protection provided? While I am not generally a fan of "Crow Bar" protection. this might be used here to good advantage. It would be a shame to blow several thousand dollars worth of electronics if a battery connection were to fail. So much to be learned!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
The problem isn't in shutting down the line to the main buss... Damage to the regulator can be done when you turn on the alternator to the buss during heavy loads. If for some reason you want to shut down the output to the buss in flight you should shed all load on the buss before reconnecting the regulator output to the buss. Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Evening Peter, Thanks for the information. Do most Jabiru operators use some sort of over voltage protection? Is there a common method that has been successful? As I am sure you can tell, my knowledge in this area is woefully inadequate. Are there any good sources of data that I can study? If a contactor was opened by a crowbar or other over voltage protection such that it would save the electronics, would the alternator still be damaged or is there some modality that would cause it to reduce it's output? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:51:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com writes: Bob, You are right about the excess current it is taken to earth at the base of the regulator which should be mounted on a heat sink panel. AC output from the PM alternator varies with RPM and the excess energy is bled off to earth during the rectification/regulation process. It sounds a bit primitive but it is simple and effective. Over voltage protection is worthwhile in case the regulator burns out. Peter H _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Printed and stuck in the manual! Thanks Noel. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:46:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes: The regulator case itself should be a heat sink. In this case the regulator actually workd as a transistor controlled voltage divider circuit. The fuse link protects the battery and as I said I also recommend a switch or better yet a circuit breaker between pin 5 of the regulator and the main buss. Output is 20 amp continuous I think I would try a 20A breaker and if you start blowing it install a load meter and a 30A breaker. Under no circumstances though load the alternator past 20A continuous duty Noel **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Great! Have look at the list of revised pages which follows the table of contents. It will give you a list of all the updated and added pages... Saves wear and tear on the printer, paper and cartridges. You may have to make notes of the different pages you will need and print only those pages... The old pages can go in the bottom of the bird cage. Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:05 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Evening Noel, I note that the one you googled is dated as revision 4. My copy is revision 3 and I see that revision 4 shows all new pages! I guess I will have to print a whole new manual. I wonder if they really did revise every page or if they just decided to list all of them as new? That's an awful lot of wasted paper! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:21:22 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes: I just googled jabiru Schematic and came up with this: (top of the page!) www.us <http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf> jabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf Everything you wanted to know about Jabiru engines and more besides... Check out page 54 for a circuit diagram. That diagram shows the output to the battery being switched ( Master) and protected by a fuse link. The feed to the main buss is not switched or protected.... I=99d recommend a breaker of at least the capacity of the alternator. Funny on page 57 they say to hook up the battery direct... I don=99t htink they looked at their own schematic and that=99s what I=99d go by. According to page 56 you can put a switch on the red wire that comes from pin #5 on the voltage regulator and then feed the output of that switch to the main buss. A word of caution here the solid state ( lots of diodes and transistors) rectifier/regulator may not be able to stand switching the alternator on and off during normal flight so save turning off the line to the main buss as an emergency procedure. Noel From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:17 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Morning Once Again Ron, That information has been very helpful in directing me to some of the problems I had wondered about. Do you have any idea how sophisticated is the controlling device associated with the Jabiru? Sounds like Evinrude has done quite well! The diodes I do understand. They were being discussed as the future when I went through school and I have kept abreast of such development. All of the principles mentioned are still the same as before, full wave rectification and all, but I still do not have good handle on the voltage regulation fine points. It appears as if they just sink excess current. Sounds kinda hairy to those of us familiar with power conservationist attitudes. My training was in the day of carbon pile regulators. Thanks again, I now know that I can reference outboard motors for more information. Have you found any documentation that is specific to how Jabiru controls or regulates the output? Is there any sort of over voltage protection provided? While I am not generally a fan of "Crow Bar" protection. this might be used here to good advantage. It would be a shame to blow several thousand dollars worth of electronics if a battery connection were to fail. So much to be learned!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 10:44:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, kc7hfa(at)totalusa.net writes: I learned electronics many years ago, while in the military. I just googled "permanent magnet regulator" and found this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/PMA.html it gives a description of how the electricity is generated then how it's converted to DC via the regulator... Hope it helps. -------- Ron Asbill N601ZX - CH-601 XL _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid= aolhom00030000000001> the video on AOL Home. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List ..matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid= aolhom00030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Hi Bob, My knowledge is a bit patchy. The best source for good info is aeroelectrics list found in the Matronics group or you could Google for Bob Nucholls Aeroelectric Connection. He has a diagram for the crowbar over voltage protection (OV) which disconnects a runaway alternator if the regulator should fail. Then the life of the alternator would depend on the mode of failure. Normally overvoltage goes to earth through the regulator but if the Reg. went OC and with no OV protection then your main bus will be exposed to the unregulated alternator output which goes up to 60VAC There is also another alternative circuit which could be used for OV protection and which would allow the alternator to remain connected. Basically this alternative OV circuit is like a supplementary regulator which starts to work if the supply voltage goes above 15V. Old Peter (1938 vintage) _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2008 11:24 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Evening Peter, Thanks for the information. Do most Jabiru operators use some sort of over voltage protection? Is there a common method that has been successful? As I am sure you can tell, my knowledge in this area is woefully inadequate. Are there any good sources of data that I can study? If a contactor was opened by a crowbar or other over voltage protection such that it would save the electronics, would the alternator still be damaged or is there some modality that would cause it to reduce it's output? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:51:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com writes: Bob, You are right about the excess current it is taken to earth at the base of the regulator which should be mounted on a heat sink panel. AC output from the PM alternator varies with RPM and the excess energy is bled off to earth during the rectification/regulation process. It sounds a bit primitive but it is simple and effective. Over voltage protection is worthwhile in case the regulator burns out. Peter H _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Bob if I can help explain the type of system used by Jabiru I hope it aids your wiring choice. Some texts refer to the PMA as a dynamo. The Jabiru assembly is similar to most Japanese and Harley motorcyles- not the old brit bikes that used Lucas -the prince of darkness- electrics. Early 3300 used a 3-phase stator, which requires a six diode rectifier stack like most automotive "alternators" have. In theory, this is much better for the output filtering because the ripple from a 3 phase is much less than the "on-off" flow from a single phase winding. Old motorcycles and Rotax 2 strokes used a shunt regulator to limit the output. This was in the form of a selenium pile mounted under the headlight for cooling on the bikes or a triggered diode (SCR) switch module on the rotax. When the output got above 14 volts the shunt device would load the stator windings and the current would be limited by the available magnet strength. the Rotax units had a habbit of failing open circuit leaving 50 volts to burn up whatever I had connected downstream. You can choose a linear series regulator, Powermate or B+C LR3 come to mind. The limitation on these is that they are, much like a carbon pile, in the line and reduce the current by turning it to heat. The big advantage is the output is much cleaner. If they fail it will usually be short cct and that is not favourable to your avionics, so these normally need or incorporate some overvoltage crowbar. Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage, the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger from the transistors that sense the voltage. The advantage of this regulator is that no current is dumped to ground, and as it is switching on it does not get hot. It is either on or off. the battery has to absorb the excess of the 'on' pulse which can be a problem if you run without battery connected or with sense wire disconnected. SCRs usually fail 'open cct' so there will be no output hence there is little need for other overvolt protection, so long as the sense wire is ALLWAYS in connection with the output wire. If you wish to be able to turn off the PMA, I would suggest switching one of the AC stator wires. The Jabiru manual is not very clear here, in 3 places it shows different recommendations. I would follow the text that calls for yellow and red to be joined and connected direct to battery studs, or via a fuse link (this is a bolted fuse element or a short crimped thin wire in the engine bay- you cannot fix a problem of a magnitude that would cause this fuse to blow anyway) If you wish to use the 'charge fail' lamp facility as depicted in the sample wiring schematic for J250 aircraft, you will then need to disconnect some of the regulator from the battery via the master switch. My option would be to use a double pole master and wire the lamp via the spare pole. This would avoid flat battery whilst preserving the direct regulator-battery connection. Dont blame me if you did it another way and have burnt parts! Regards, Ralph telecommunications engineering is my day job part-time avionics and PT6 instrumentation troubleshooter CH701 with Jabiru 2200a and yes I have a turbine and it DOES have a PMA. came off an A7 -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171885#171885 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2008
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Noel Loveys a crit : > > Generators and magnetos are somewhat limited in their capacity to > generate electrical power so over voltage is not generally a > consideration. > Noel and all, Whereas I would second you on the self limited *current* capacity of permanent magnet alternators, I beg to differ on the over *voltage* issue : a PM alternator cannot prevent from producing voltage when spinning, and if the regulator fails, voltage may climb as up as 80-100 volts according to model and rpm. A good battery may temporarily soak the voltage excursion, but those values are sufficient to damage any avionics if not taken care of on time. So overvoltage protection is worth some consideration if expensive avionics is installed. As mentioned elsewhere, the Aeroelectric website and list provide really valuable information and circuit architecture suggestions. The experience an knowledge there are hard to beat. FWIW Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Morning Noel, I did look at the list of revised pages and they show ALL pages as having been revised! I don't mind the paper so much, but all that ink! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Do Not Archive In a message dated 3/22/2008 11:07:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes: Great! Have look at the list of revised pages which follows the table of contents. It will give you a list of all the updated and added pages... Saves wear and tear on the printer, paper and cartridges. You may have to make notes of the different pages you will need and print only those pages... The old pages can go in the bottom of the bird cage. Noel **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Morning Peter, I have been monitoring the matronics list for several years and 'Lectric Bob for at least twenty years. I do have several copies of the Connection plus it's predecessor from the Down By The Riverside Press!. I even attended one of his seminars a year or so ago. That is probably why I am so concerned as to how the permanent magnet alternator can be deactivated so that it will not fry the electronics nor tear itself apart. I think I do understand the use of a crow bar to save the panel, but the runaway alternator has me concerned. I had no idea there was such a thing available as a permanent magnet alternator. I guess every time it was mentioned, I disregarded and skipped over it because I worked only on military and certified aircraft electrical systems. Never messed with outboards, lawn mowers or snow mobiles. Thanks for all the help you and others have provided. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/23/2008 2:17:40 A.M. Central Daylight Time, peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com writes: Hi Bob, My knowledge is a bit patchy. The best source for good info is aeroelectrics list found in the Matronics group or you could Google for Bob Nucholls Aeroelectric Connection. He has a diagram for the crowbar over voltage protection (OV) which disconnects a runaway alternator if the regulator should fail. Then the life of the alternator would depend on the mode of failure. Normally overvoltage goes to earth through the regulator but if the Reg. went OC and with no OV protection then your main bus will be exposed to the unregulated alternator output which goes up to 60VAC There is also another alternative circuit which could be used for OV protection and which would allow the alternator to remain connected. Basically this alternative OV circuit is like a supplementary regulator which starts to work if the supply voltage goes above 15V. Old Peter (1938 vintage) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Morning Ralph, That helps a lot! My learning curve is still on the way up. Your fine explanation has been printed and added to the manual. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Do Not Archive In a message dated 3/23/2008 2:56:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time, sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz writes: Bob if I can help explain the type of system used by Jabiru I hope it aids your wiring choice. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Thanks Ralph: It's always good to learn more. I was under the understanding that the carbon pile actually lowered the voltage when it came into problems.,, Which were generally crystallization of the piles. I can see the switching one of the stator wires but couldn't see the advantage of that. Does your turbine produce 400 Hz three phase?? Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jetboy Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:23 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Bob if I can help explain the type of system used by Jabiru I hope it aids your wiring choice. Some texts refer to the PMA as a dynamo. The Jabiru assembly is similar to most Japanese and Harley motorcyles- not the old brit bikes that used Lucas -the prince of darkness- electrics. Early 3300 used a 3-phase stator, which requires a six diode rectifier stack like most automotive "alternators" have. In theory, this is much better for the output filtering because the ripple from a 3 phase is much less than the "on-off" flow from a single phase winding. Old motorcycles and Rotax 2 strokes used a shunt regulator to limit the output. This was in the form of a selenium pile mounted under the headlight for cooling on the bikes or a triggered diode (SCR) switch module on the rotax. When the output got above 14 volts the shunt device would load the stator windings and the current would be limited by the available magnet strength. the Rotax units had a habbit of failing open circuit leaving 50 volts to burn up whatever I had connected downstream. You can choose a linear series regulator, Powermate or B+C LR3 come to mind. The limitation on these is that they are, much like a carbon pile, in the line and reduce the current by turning it to heat. The big advantage is the output is much cleaner. If they fail it will usually be short cct and that is not favourable to your avionics, so these normally need or incorporate some overvoltage crowbar. Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage, the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger from the transistors that sense the voltage. The advantage of this regulator is that no current is dumped to ground, and as it is switching on it does not get hot. It is either on or off. the battery has to absorb the excess of the 'on' pulse which can be a problem if you run without battery connected or with sense wire disconnected. SCRs usually fail 'open cct' so there will be no output hence there is little need for other overvolt protection, so long as the sense wire is ALLWAYS in connection with the output wire. If you wish to be able to turn off the PMA, I would suggest switching one of the AC stator wires. The Jabiru manual is not very clear here, in 3 places it shows different recommendations. I would follow the text that calls for yellow and red to be joined and connected direct to battery studs, or via a fuse link (this is a bolted fuse element or a short crimped thin wire in the engine bay- you cannot fix a problem of a magnitude that would cause this fuse to blow anyway) If you wish to use the 'charge fail' lamp facility as depicted in the sample wiring schematic for J250 aircraft, you will then need to disconnect some of the regulator from the battery via the master switch. My option would be to use a double pole master and wire the lamp via the spare pole. This would avoid flat battery whilst preserving the direct regulator-battery connection. Dont blame me if you did it another way and have burnt parts! Regards, Ralph telecommunications engineering is my day job part-time avionics and PT6 instrumentation troubleshooter CH701 with Jabiru 2200a and yes I have a turbine and it DOES have a PMA. came off an A7 -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171885#171885 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 24, 2008
Gilles and Ralph, If the J3300 is fitted with a series switching regulator does this mean that the alternator AC output is switched on or off the bridge connection and it would go OC when the battery is fully charged and there is no load dumping to earth? Does this mean that the regulator is safe and does not require OV protection or do we need OV protection for interruption of a heavy DC current on the busbar side? Thanks, Peter H ( I suppose this should be on the aeroelectrics list) -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jetboy Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2008 5:53 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Bob if I can help explain the type of system used by Jabiru I hope it aids your wiring choice. Some texts refer to the PMA as a dynamo. The Jabiru assembly is similar to most Japanese and Harley motorcyles- not the old brit bikes that used Lucas -the prince of darkness- electrics. Early 3300 used a 3-phase stator, which requires a six diode rectifier stack like most automotive "alternators" have. In theory, this is much better for the output filtering because the ripple from a 3 phase is much less than the "on-off" flow from a single phase winding. Old motorcycles and Rotax 2 strokes used a shunt regulator to limit the output. This was in the form of a selenium pile mounted under the headlight for cooling on the bikes or a triggered diode (SCR) switch module on the rotax. When the output got above 14 volts the shunt device would load the stator windings and the current would be limited by the available magnet strength. the Rotax units had a habbit of failing open circuit leaving 50 volts to burn up whatever I had connected downstream. You can choose a linear series regulator, Powermate or B+C LR3 come to mind. The limitation on these is that they are, much like a carbon pile, in the line and reduce the current by turning it to heat. The big advantage is the output is much cleaner. If they fail it will usually be short cct and that is not favourable to your avionics, so these normally need or incorporate some overvoltage crowbar. Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage, the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger from the transistors that sense the voltage. The advantage of this regulator is that no current is dumped to ground, and as it is switching on it does not get hot. It is either on or off. the battery has to absorb the excess of the 'on' pulse which can be a problem if you run without battery connected or with sense wire disconnected. SCRs usually fail 'open cct' so there will be no output hence there is little need for other overvolt protection, so long as the sense wire is ALLWAYS in connection with the output wire. If you wish to be able to turn off the PMA, I would suggest switching one of the AC stator wires. The Jabiru manual is not very clear here, in 3 places it shows different recommendations. I would follow the text that calls for yellow and red to be joined and connected direct to battery studs, or via a fuse link (this is a bolted fuse element or a short crimped thin wire in the engine bay- you cannot fix a problem of a magnitude that would cause this fuse to blow anyway) If you wish to use the 'charge fail' lamp facility as depicted in the sample wiring schematic for J250 aircraft, you will then need to disconnect some of the regulator from the battery via the master switch. My option would be to use a double pole master and wire the lamp via the spare pole. This would avoid flat battery whilst preserving the direct regulator-battery connection. Dont blame me if you did it another way and have burnt parts! Regards, Ralph telecommunications engineering is my day job part-time avionics and PT6 instrumentation troubleshooter CH701 with Jabiru 2200a and yes I have a turbine and it DOES have a PMA. came off an A7 -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=171885#171885 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Evening Noel, All 110 pages have been revised, the bulletins brought up to date, and we will be heading to Texas tomorrow to help our Granddaughter install the 3300 Jabiru engine in her Quick Built Legend Cub! Thanks for all the help from everyone. I have learned a lot about permanent magnet alternators in the last few days. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Do Not Archive Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/23/2008 6:45:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes: To be honest I didn=99t look at the list of revised pages... Happy printing... I hate the cost of cartridges too. Noel **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aol hom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Evening Peter, Just a bit of information if you will. What is an SCR? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/23/2008 5:39:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time, peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com writes: Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage, the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger from the transistors that sense the voltage. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Peter & Noel If I wanted to disable the alternator I would switch the AC off rather than the rectified and regulated DC. 3 reasons: switching the DC does not isolate your windings from burning up. Switching the DC involves another infirm connection and much longer path to the battery. The rating of the switch required is lower and the AC line is prior to the regulator so any voltage drops are not affecting the output. The series switching regulator, when up to full voltage on the DC bus, is OC, and the AC available from the PMA is not consumed. The windings stay cool, and there is no load on the engine because the magnets are passing a coil that is not connected anywhere. If wired in a safe configuration and with a battery or capacitor across the output it should not need any further OV protection. Interrupting a heavy load off the DC bus will not cause the regulator do go OV. Anytime the sense wire is not directly connected to the output, you need another form of protection, because the voltage control loop is open, and like an automotive alternator, full output will be made available to all in its path. Bob's aerolectric Z20 looks to be a safe method, and has the fusible links to isolate any faulty units from further harm. Ralph. PS the turbine with a PMA is a JFS100 APU, the alternator is for 24 volts @ 4 amps and only uses a rectifier. It gives me no trouble, but the igniter box is another story..... Peter H wrote: > Gilles and Ralph, > If the J3300 is fitted with a series switching regulator does this mean that > the alternator AC output is switched on or off the bridge connection and it > would go OC when the battery is fully charged and there is no load dumping > to earth? > Does this mean that the regulator is safe and does not require OV protection > or do we need OV protection for interruption of a heavy DC current on the > busbar side? > > Thanks, > Peter H ( I suppose this should be on the aeroelectrics list) > > > -- -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172101#172101 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Good Evening Ralph, In the paragraph below, what does OC stand for? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/23/2008 9:41:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz writes: The series switching regulator, when up to full voltage on the DC bus, is OC, and the AC available from the PMA is not consumed. The windings stay cool, and there is no load on the engine because the magnets are passing a coil that is not connected anywhere. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 24, 2008
Bob, Better to ask Ralph, he raised it. But it is a type of transistor like a triode it will conduct when the grid voltage reaches switching level usually set at 14.5V for this application. So a voltage sensing device triggers the SCR at 14.5V and it conducts excess current to earth. "I think" Peter _____ From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, 24 March 2008 12:19 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Good Evening Peter, Just a bit of information if you will. What is an SCR? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 3/23/2008 5:39:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time, peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com writes: Newer motorcycles, Jabiru and i believe Rotax 912 use a series switching regulator. That is, when the transistors see the voltage applied to the yellow 'sense' wire is lower than the internally preset reference voltage, the bridge rectifier is triggered on. this is by activation of the two SCRs that are in the -ve legs of the bridge. The SCR that is conducting remains conducting until the end of the AC cycle coming from the stator windings, at this time the SCR remains non conducting unless there is a fresh trigger from the transistors that sense the voltage. _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001> the video on AOL Home. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 24, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
In a message dated 03/23/2008 9:41:31 PM Central Daylight Time, sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz writes: Anytime the sense wire is not directly connected to the output, you need another form of protection, because the voltage control loop is open, and like an automotive alternator, full output will be made available to all in its path. Hi Ralph- obviously you have a pretty good handle on this stuff, so could you please shed some light on one aspect I'm confused on: It is my understanding that in a PMA when a magnet passes a coil, there is some maximum amount of current induced in the coil (load-dependant, of course), based on number of coil windings and power of the magnetic field provided by the magnet. (Not sure how velocity of the passing magnetic field affects this) This results in a maximum voltage value for the given magnet/coil/(velocity?) event, and that voltage would be self-limiting, or incapable of a "runaway", which is not the case in a typical automotive-type alternator supplied by a "regulated" voltage to a field winding as mentioned above. With a PMA regulated by the device shown in the Jabiru manual, when the SCRs are triggered to charge the system because the reference voltage set point was reached, wouldn't each charging event (peak sine wave voltage achieved as magnet passes a coil with SCRs gated on) reach the maximum possible voltage based on the above situation? (I understand how a large capacitor between the alternator leads would reduce the peak-to-peak voltage, I think...) Appreciate your input on this issue- great discussion! Mark **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mar 23, 2008
Mark, A couple of terms - OC means "open circuit" SCR is the abbreviation of "silicon controlled rectifier" and is a diode that will not conduct until a trigger signal is applied to the control lead, thereafter it remains conducting unless the current passing thru is all gone. This occurs when the PMA output voltage changes to the reverse polarity, as the voltage passes thru zero the SCR unlatches and remains off until another trigger voltage is applied to the gate. The generation of voltage by the PMA is limited by the number of turns on the windings, and I think the velocity of the magnets moving past. the current draw available would be determined by the rpm and strength of the magnets I expect, and these conditions will mean it is self limiting. But to get it to operate satisfactorily at say 2,000 rpm the unit will end up producing more than those requirements at 3,300 rpm. There is no need for regulating the maximum current because even shorting the windings doesnt produce much more. The voltage needs regulating for a large portion of the running especially at low loadings it will be 3 or 4 times the minimum requirement. Your last question is correct - each time the SCRs are triggered in order to let thru some more charge, the remainder of that half cycle AC is output to the load. If the load is a capacitor or battery the current is stored as a charge and the voltage rises slightly. If there is no load connected, other than your $$$ avionics, then the half cycle pulse results in a substantial voltage peak. This all happens very quickly but in most cases the internal capacitors will store it. If the avionics meet DOD-160 they will be immune. We are only talking of the part of the cycle that is over the 14 volts so the duration of these pulses will be less than one thousandth of a second. Not every cycle will be triggered and not every trigger will result in an overvolt spike because there is no timing control applied to the triggers. It is a relatively robust simple design for the purpose of charging the battery and running the lights and horn on your lawn tractor. I have measured the spikes and voltages on my 15 amp 2200a PMA and there is nothing to be concerned with. I use the PC925 26 AH battery which can accomodate most problems. The most efficient way to do this would be to fully rectify the PMA and apply the 15 - 85 volts to a switchmode inverter with a steady 13.8 volt output. These are off the shelf items but as soon as you get a bit of moisture in will probably fail so would be better off fitting a regular 3 phase alternator/regulator. - and the OV protection. Ralph could you please shed some light on one aspect I'm confused on: It is my understanding that in a PMA when a magnet passes a coil, there is some maximum amount of current induced in the coil (load-dependant, of course), based on number of coil windings and power of the magnetic field provided by the magnet. (Not sure how velocity of the passing magnetic field affects this) This results in a maximum voltage value for the given magnet/coil/(velocity?) event, and that voltage would be self-limiting, or incapable of a "runaway", which is not the case in a typical automotive-type alternator supplied by a "regulated" voltage to a field winding as mentioned above. With a PMA regulated by the device shown in the Jabiru manual, when the SCRs are triggered to charge the system because the reference voltage set point was reached, wouldn't each charging event (peak sine wave voltage achieved as magnet passes a coil with SCRs gated on) reach the maximum possible voltage based on the above situation? (I understand how a large capacitor between the alternator leads would reduce the peak-to-peak voltage, I think...) Appreciate your input on this issue- great discussion! Mark Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001). > [b] -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172134#172134 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 24, 2008
Ralph: Turns, Speed, strength of the magnets and I believe proximity of the magnetic poles to the coils. Noel The generation of voltage by the PMA is limited by the number of turns on the windings, and I think the velocity of the magnets moving past. the current draw available would be determined by the rpm and strength of the magnets I expect, and these conditions will mean it is self limiting. But to get it to operate satisfactorily at say 2,000 rpm the unit will end up producing more than those requirements at 3,300 rpm. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Haas" <checkpoint2(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 24, 2008
Any one, is there a known conversion for a belt driven or direct drive Alternator For the rear of a jabiru 2200 engine? Bob Haas Alpi Pioneer. -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 4:05 PM Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch Ralph: Turns, Speed, strength of the magnets and I believe proximity of the magnetic poles to the coils. Noel The generation of voltage by the PMA is limited by the number of turns on the windings, and I think the velocity of the magnets moving past. the current draw available would be determined by the rpm and strength of the magnets I expect, and these conditions will mean it is self limiting. But to get it to operate satisfactorily at say 2,000 rpm the unit will end up producing more than those requirements at 3,300 rpm. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 25, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Ralph- Good stuff- nice SCR description. I used these puppies for 25+years welding car bodies for GM, but still unqualified to understand overvoltage conditions in PMAs. Referring to page 54 of January '08 version of Jabiru document 3300HL-IM JEM3304-4.pdf: _http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf_ (http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300HL-IM.pdf) which (somewhat miserably!) shows the regulator/rectifier circuit, it would seem the regulator is only offered one-half of the phase generated by the PMA, unless the SCRs provide the other half-cylce in some way I misunderstand. I've stared at this drawing for some time and have been unable to devine its secrets. If you could please take some time to decipher its function, I (we?) would be greatly indebted! For the sake of this discussion, let's call the transistors T1-T4, left to right. In my estimation, T1 is voltage reference controlling T4 based on zener value, which in turn controls T3 that gates the SCRs. T2 turns on the charge lamp, which seems to illuminate lamp when circuit is charging, as opposed to when it is not(?!). Perhaps you can unravel this Gordian knot for this lesser electron herder. You also mention 15-85 volts available from the PMA- original concern was regarding overvoltage. Are you saying that there is a potential (no pun intended!) for as much as 85 volts to the system which would normally be absorbed by the battery, and that battery disconnect with alternator running might develop into a "bad day"? Thanks again for your input! Mark **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mar 25, 2008
Mark, That regulator cct diagram really is difficult to follow with the transistors drawn upside down etc. but after studying it for a few years I decided it should work. Both the sense transistors and the ouput do get full wave rectifiers - its just that 2 diodes of the bridge are used for both functions and each of the SCRs forming the remainder of the bridge just supply the output -ve return. I have not tried fitting the 'charge' lamp and in my plane it would give me flat battery anyway. The 85 Volts or so is allways available from the PMA if unloaded however with this type of regulator its not likely to ever get thru to the output unless the sense wire has become disassociated with the output. it would not be as violent as an automotive field controlled alternator going full on however now that all engines are fitted with the 20 amp 6 pole stator the battery may not contain the excess for long. Best practice is to cut off the regulator connector and crimp splice or solder the PMA wires. This is now covered in the manuals or bulletins somewhere due to wiring fires. Then crimp the red & yellow together and via fusible wire link to battery. Crimp black wire to a ground lug and also to -ve wire to battery -ve lug. Otherwise use wiring diagram Z20 Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172464#172464 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Date: Mar 25, 2008
-----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jetboy Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:17 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch I have not tried fitting the 'charge' lamp and in my plane it would give me flat battery anyway. That's the reason they have the master switch on the battery lead. What I don't like is there is no way to disconnect the feed from the regulator to the main buss. I think I'd like to have one in case of a problem with the rectifier/regulator. Noel ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuel flow test
From: "DanM" <danm(at)gangnailtruss.com>
Date: Mar 25, 2008
I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, Kitfox IV, in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is necessary prior to the start. Anybody out there have information or documents on this procedure? thanks -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172578#172578 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Fuel flow test
A flow test isn't necessary before first start, though fuel to the engine is mandatory! :-) To do a fuel flow test, position the airplane in max climb attitude, usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-22 deg. nose high. Test fuel flow at the carb inlet. It should be 150% of the wide open throttle (WOT) requirements of the engine. The 3300 is WOT flow is about 10 GPH, so we want fuel flow of about 16 GPH to be safe. Not sure about the 2200's WOT consumption rate. Ron On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:19 AM, DanM wrote: > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, Kitfox IV, > in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is necessary prior to the > start. Anybody out there have information or documents on this procedure? > > thanks > > -------- > Dan Mc Intyre > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel flow test
Date: Mar 25, 2008
I attended a forum given by Jack Dueck at Oshkosh in Summer of '05. I think he works for the EAA at Oshkosh. I got a handout describing the method. Maybe there's something online through EAA. I'd give them a shout/email and see. I also think that Jabiru has a method that they use, at least I read that somewhere. I'd give Pete, Andy or Jim a call. Basically what you're doing is seeing if the fuel system will flow 150% of what the engine will require in a gravity-flow, high-wing plane. The handout that I have talks in terms of weight of the fuel, and has a graph that converts horsepower to lbs of fuel per hour. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual On Mar 25, 2008, at 2:19 PM, DanM wrote: > > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, > Kitfox IV, in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is > necessary prior to the start. Anybody out there have information > or documents on this procedure? > > thanks > > -------- > Dan Mc Intyre > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172578#172578 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2008
From: "Ed D'Antoni" <avidaerobat(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel flow test
The Fuel flow test is detailed in Tony Bingelis' book Fire Wall Forward (Page 175). A simplified version is described in EAA Experimenter, 2003 May edition. It is probably also somewhere in FAA's Acceptable Methods --- AC43.13. Part of the documentation for registration includes self certification that you have carried out a fuel flow test. Ed Lynn Matteson wrote: I attended a forum given by Jack Dueck at Oshkosh in Summer of '05. I think he works for the EAA at Oshkosh. I got a handout describing the method. Maybe there's something online through EAA. I'd give them a shout/email and see. I also think that Jabiru has a method that they use, at least I read that somewhere. I'd give Pete, Andy or Jim a call. Basically what you're doing is seeing if the fuel system will flow 150% of what the engine will require in a gravity-flow, high-wing plane. The handout that I have talks in terms of weight of the fuel, and has a graph that converts horsepower to lbs of fuel per hour. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual On Mar 25, 2008, at 2:19 PM, DanM wrote: > > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, > Kitfox IV, in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is > necessary prior to the start. Anybody out there have information > or documents on this procedure? > > thanks > > -------- > Dan Mc Intyre > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172578#172578 > > --------------------------------- Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2008
From: "Ed D'Antoni" <avidaerobat(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel flow test
Here is the exact wording from the FAA's Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight testing handbook which you can download at: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/ac90-89a.pdf e. Fuel Flow and Unusable Fuel Check: This is a field test to ensure the aircraft engine will get enough fuel to run properly, even if the aircraft is in a steep climb or stall attitude. (1) First, place the aircrafts nose at an angle 5 degrees above the highest anticipated climb angle. The easiest and safest way to do this with a conventional gear aircraft is to dig a hole and place the aircrafts tail in it. For a nose gear aircraft, build a ramp to raise the nose gear to the proper angle. (2) Make sure the aircraft is tied-down and chocked. With minimum fuel in the tanks, disconnect the fuel line to carburetor. The fuel flow with a gravity flow system should be 150 percent of the fuel consumption of the engine at full throttle. With a fuel system that is pressurized, the fuel flow should be at least 125 percent. When the fuel stops flowing, the remaining fuel is the unusable fuel quantity. (3) Since the fuel consumption of most modern engines is approximately .55 pounds per brake horsepower per hour for a 100 horsepower engine, the test fuel flow should be 82.5 pounds (13.7 gallons) per hour for gravity feed, or 68.75 pounds (11.5 gallons) per hour for a pressurized system. The pounds per hour divided by 60 equals 1.4 pounds and 1.15 pounds per minute fuel rate respectively. NOTE: Formula for fuel flow rate gravity feed is .55 x engine horsepower x 1.50 pounds of fuel per hour divided by 60 to get pounds per minute, divided by 6 to get gallons per minute. For a pressurized system, substitute 1.25 for 1.50 to determine fuel flow rate. f. Changing Fuel Flow or Pressure: If the aircrafts fuel flow rate is less than planned, there is a volume or pressure problem. An increase in the fuel flow volume may necessitate installation of larger fuel line fittings on the fuel tanks, fuel selector, and carburetor in addition to larger internal diameter fuel lines. To increase fuel pressure, install an electrically driven or engine driven mechanical fuel pump prior to the first flight. Lynn Matteson wrote: I attended a forum given by Jack Dueck at Oshkosh in Summer of '05. I think he works for the EAA at Oshkosh. I got a handout describing the method. Maybe there's something online through EAA. I'd give them a shout/email and see. I also think that Jabiru has a method that they use, at least I read that somewhere. I'd give Pete, Andy or Jim a call. Basically what you're doing is seeing if the fuel system will flow 150% of what the engine will require in a gravity-flow, high-wing plane. The handout that I have talks in terms of weight of the fuel, and has a graph that converts horsepower to lbs of fuel per hour. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual On Mar 25, 2008, at 2:19 PM, DanM wrote: > > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, > Kitfox IV, in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is > necessary prior to the start. Anybody out there have information > or documents on this procedure? > > thanks > > -------- > Dan Mc Intyre > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172578#172578 > > --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 26, 2008
Subject: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch
Ralph- Thanks for the description- with your help, I think I have it sorted out! Appreciate the assist- Mark **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel flow test
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2008
Dan, There is a PDF document on how to do this at this website. http://www.xairireland.com/ go to XAir - Hawk - Downloads and you'll find a fuel flow document for the 2200. I'm currently building one of these with a 2200a on the front - but I haven't got as far as you yet. Good luck. Ian Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172726#172726 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <botton(at)capital.net>
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/25/08
Date: Mar 26, 2008
----- Original Message ----- From: "JabiruEngine-List Digest Server" <jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 1:57 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/25/08 > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete JabiruEngine-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the JabiruEngine-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-03-25&Archive=JabiruEngine > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-03-25&Archive=JabiruEngine > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Tue 03/25/08: 8 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 02:49 AM - Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (jetboy) > 2. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Noel Loveys) > 3. 11:23 AM - Fuel flow test (DanM) > 4. 11:54 AM - Re: Fuel flow test (Ron Shannon) > 5. 12:35 PM - Re: Fuel flow test (Lynn Matteson) > 6. 02:38 PM - Re: Fuel flow test (Ed D'Antoni) > 7. 03:37 PM - Re: Fuel flow test (Ed D'Antoni) > 8. 09:49 PM - Re: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch (Fiveonepw(at)aol.com) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch > From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz> > > > Mark, > > That regulator cct diagram really is difficult to follow with the transistors drawn > upside down etc. but after studying it for a few years I decided it should > work. Both the sense transistors and the ouput do get full wave rectifiers - > its just that 2 diodes of the bridge are used for both functions and each of > the SCRs forming the remainder of the bridge just supply the output -ve return. > I have not tried fitting the 'charge' lamp and in my plane it would give me > flat battery anyway. > > The 85 Volts or so is allways available from the PMA if unloaded however with this > type of regulator its not likely to ever get thru to the output unless the > sense wire has become disassociated with the output. it would not be as violent > as an automotive field controlled alternator going full on however now that > all engines are fitted with the 20 amp 6 pole stator the battery may not contain > the excess for long. > > Best practice is to cut off the regulator connector and crimp splice or solder > the PMA wires. This is now covered in the manuals or bulletins somewhere due to > wiring fires. Then crimp the red & yellow together and via fusible wire link > to battery. Crimp black wire to a ground lug and also to -ve wire to battery > -ve lug. > > Otherwise use wiring diagram Z20 > > Ralph > > -------- > Ralph - CH701 / 2200a > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172464#172464 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> > Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jetboy > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:17 AM > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch > > > I have not tried fitting the 'charge' lamp and in my plane it would give me > flat battery anyway. > > > That's the reason they have the master switch on the battery lead. What I > don't like is there is no way to disconnect the feed from the regulator to > the main buss. I think I'd like to have one in case of a problem with the > rectifier/regulator. > > > Noel > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel flow test > From: "DanM" <danm(at)gangnailtruss.com> > > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, Kitfox IV, in about > two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is necessary prior to the start. Anybody > out there have information or documents on this procedure? > > thanks > > -------- > Dan Mc Intyre > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172578#172578 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel flow test > > A flow test isn't necessary before first start, though fuel to the engine is > mandatory! :-) > > To do a fuel flow test, position the airplane in max climb attitude, usually > somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-22 deg. nose high. Test fuel flow at the > carb inlet. It should be 150% of the wide open throttle (WOT) requirements > of the engine. > > The 3300 is WOT flow is about 10 GPH, so we want fuel flow of about 16 GPH > to be safe. Not sure about the 2200's WOT consumption rate. > > Ron > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:19 AM, DanM wrote: > > > > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, Kitfox IV, > > in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is necessary prior to the > > start. Anybody out there have information or documents on this procedure? > > > > thanks > > > > -------- > > Dan Mc Intyre > > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ > > > From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel flow test > > > I attended a forum given by Jack Dueck at Oshkosh in Summer of '05. I > think he works for the EAA at Oshkosh. I got a handout describing the > method. Maybe there's something online through EAA. I'd give them a > shout/email and see. I also think that Jabiru has a method that they > use, at least I read that somewhere. I'd give Pete, Andy or Jim a call. > > Basically what you're doing is seeing if the fuel system will flow > 150% of what the engine will require in a gravity-flow, high-wing > plane. The handout that I have talks in terms of weight of the fuel, > and has a graph that converts horsepower to lbs of fuel per hour. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual > > > On Mar 25, 2008, at 2:19 PM, DanM wrote: > > > > > > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, > > Kitfox IV, in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is > > necessary prior to the start. Anybody out there have information > > or documents on this procedure? > > > > thanks > > > > -------- > > Dan Mc Intyre > > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172578#172578 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Ed D'Antoni" <avidaerobat(at)yahoo.ca> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel flow test > > The Fuel flow test is detailed in Tony Bingelis' book Fire Wall Forward (Page 175). > A simplified version is described in EAA Experimenter, 2003 May edition. > It is probably also somewhere in FAA's Acceptable Methods --- AC43.13. Part > of the documentation for registration includes self certification that you have > carried out a fuel flow test. > > Ed > > > Lynn Matteson wrote: > > > I attended a forum given by Jack Dueck at Oshkosh in Summer of '05. I > think he works for the EAA at Oshkosh. I got a handout describing the > method. Maybe there's something online through EAA. I'd give them a > shout/email and see. I also think that Jabiru has a method that they > use, at least I read that somewhere. I'd give Pete, Andy or Jim a call. > > Basically what you're doing is seeing if the fuel system will flow > 150% of what the engine will require in a gravity-flow, high-wing > plane. The handout that I have talks in terms of weight of the fuel, > and has a graph that converts horsepower to lbs of fuel per hour. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual > > > On Mar 25, 2008, at 2:19 PM, DanM wrote: > > > > > > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, > > Kitfox IV, in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is > > necessary prior to the start. Anybody out there have information > > or documents on this procedure? > > > > thanks > > > > -------- > > Dan Mc Intyre > > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172578#172578 > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Ed D'Antoni" <avidaerobat(at)yahoo.ca> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel flow test > > Here is the exact wording from the FAA's Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight > Flight testing handbook which you can download at: > > > http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/ac90-89a.pdf > > e. Fuel Flow and Unusable Fuel Check: This > is a field test to ensure the aircraft engine will get > enough fuel to run properly, even if the aircraft is > in a steep climb or stall attitude. > (1) First, place the aircrafts nose at an > angle 5 degrees above the highest anticipated climb > angle. The easiest and safest way to do this with > a conventional gear aircraft is to dig a hole and place > the aircrafts tail in it. For a nose gear aircraft, build > a ramp to raise the nose gear to the proper angle. > (2) Make sure the aircraft is tied-down and > chocked. With minimum fuel in the tanks, disconnect > the fuel line to carburetor. The fuel flow with a gravity > flow system should be 150 percent of the fuel > consumption of the engine at full throttle. With a > fuel system that is pressurized, the fuel flow should > be at least 125 percent. When the fuel stops flowing, > the remaining fuel is the unusable fuel quantity. > (3) Since the fuel consumption of most > modern engines is approximately .55 pounds per > brake horsepower per hour for a 100 horsepower > engine, the test fuel flow should be 82.5 pounds (13.7 > gallons) per hour for gravity feed, or 68.75 pounds > (11.5 gallons) per hour for a pressurized system. The > pounds per hour divided by 60 equals 1.4 pounds > and 1.15 pounds per minute fuel rate respectively. > NOTE: Formula for fuel flow rate gravity > feed is .55 x engine horsepower x 1.50 > pounds of fuel per hour divided by 60 to > get pounds per minute, divided by 6 to get > gallons per minute. For a pressurized system, > substitute 1.25 for 1.50 to determine > fuel flow rate. > f. Changing Fuel Flow or Pressure: If the > aircrafts fuel flow rate is less than planned, there > is a volume or pressure problem. An increase in the > fuel flow volume may necessitate installation of > larger fuel line fittings on the fuel tanks, fuel selector, > and carburetor in addition to larger internal diameter > fuel lines. To increase fuel pressure, install an electrically > driven or engine driven mechanical fuel > pump prior to the first flight. > > > Lynn Matteson wrote: > > > I attended a forum given by Jack Dueck at Oshkosh in Summer of '05. I > think he works for the EAA at Oshkosh. I got a handout describing the > method. Maybe there's something online through EAA. I'd give them a > shout/email and see. I also think that Jabiru has a method that they > use, at least I read that somewhere. I'd give Pete, Andy or Jim a call. > > Basically what you're doing is seeing if the fuel system will flow > 150% of what the engine will require in a gravity-flow, high-wing > plane. The handout that I have talks in terms of weight of the fuel, > and has a graph that converts horsepower to lbs of fuel per hour. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual > > > On Mar 25, 2008, at 2:19 PM, DanM wrote: > > > > > > > I'm going to try and do the initial start of my 2200a engine, > > Kitfox IV, in about two weeks, I think a fuel flow test is > > necessary prior to the start. Anybody out there have information > > or documents on this procedure? > > > > thanks > > > > -------- > > Dan Mc Intyre > > Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172578#172578 > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ > > > From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring 3300 to an alternator switch > > Ralph- > > Thanks for the description- with your help, I think I have it sorted out! > > Appreciate the assist- > Mark > > > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL > Home. > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0 0030000000001) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Two New Lists Added to the Matronics Lineup!
Dear Listers, I've added two new Email Lists to the Matronics List and Forum lineup today. These include the Rans-List and RV12-List. Please surf over to the Matronics List Subscription page and sign up for these new Lists if they are of interest to you: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Full support on the Forums, List Browse, Archives, etc. is available. Rans-List: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rans-List RV12-List http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV12-List Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuel Pressure Question?
From: "Jeffrey J Paris" <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com>
Date: Apr 06, 2008
Dear Jabiru Engine Wonks, I have a question about fuel pressure and fuel flow. I currently own and fly a Zenith CH601XL equipped with a Jab 3300, I have about 192 hours on AF/PP. I am fortunate in flying with a fully TSO'd Xerion Auracle Engine monitor/analyzer. My two last flights I have noted some peculiarities with fuel pressure and fuel flow while flying. My engine analyzer at altitude sends up a warning message that fuel pressure is low/lowering and while all seems to be running right I noticed that my fuel flow numbers were going up? When I turn on my Facet boost pump the fuel pressure would go back into the normal green values and the fuel flow returns back to a respectable number. Furthermore, while flying on the way home my engine analyzer started this curious behavior again. While slowly descending into my home airport I reduced power and watched everything come into sync. What got my attention next was that I felt the engine sort of "burp" or skip a bit. I pulled carb. heat and turned on the boost pump to cover my rear end. It was enough of a "burp" for me to take notice. So with that information in hand, what does this mean? You would think that low fuel pressure would = lowering fuel flow right? Conversely, the opposite should apply ... Does anyone here know what I'm dealing with other than that she's running beautifully. Thank you for you time and consideration. Jeff Paris N196ZP KSDC Williamson-Sodus CH601XL Jabiru 3300 _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical Newbie Question
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Apr 06, 2008
Tim, you will need to disconnect both wires if you want to isolate the regulator due to some fault, simply because you wont know which wire is carrying / causing the fault. The yellow wire should be bonded to the red wire at the regulator, and the extended lead can go via a fuse, fuse link or cct breaker to the batt +ve. This is the safest option and the recommended wiring method as written in the current Jabiru installation manual. I think Bob's Z20? is the most recent diagram -equally safe and with more protective measures and features. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175117#175117 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Fuel Pressure Question?
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Jeffry I have spent some time investigating the fuel flow of my J3300 and found as follows: The needle valve seat provided by Jabiru is 2.25mm and is meant for gravity feed. It leaks from about 2700 rpm causing the fuel bowl to get above design level and the engine to run rich . Excessive rich running causes decreased power and rough running very noticeable if it occurs in flight. The correct needle seat for a fuel pump fed installation is 1.5mm and I fitted one of these. It ran too lean at WOT but when I started the boost pump it also leaked and I saw 36LPH on my Navman fuel flow meter. I have discussed this issue with the Jab engine shop and understand that the setup is tuned for the typical Jabiru installation and that needles and jets were chosen to provide best cruise mix at about 2750 and excessive rich mix at higher RPM and at WOT as a measure to ensure the valves are kept cool. It may possibly be that you are experiencing patchy over rich running. Peter H -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey J Paris Sent: Monday, 7 April 2008 7:19 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure Question? Dear Jabiru Engine Wonks, I have a question about fuel pressure and fuel flow. I currently own and fly a Zenith CH601XL equipped with a Jab 3300, I have about 192 hours on AF/PP. I am fortunate in flying with a fully TSO'd Xerion Auracle Engine monitor/analyzer. My two last flights I have noted some peculiarities with fuel pressure and fuel flow while flying. My engine analyzer at altitude sends up a warning message that fuel pressure is low/lowering and while all seems to be running right I noticed that my fuel flow numbers were going up? When I turn on my Facet boost pump the fuel pressure would go back into the normal green values and the fuel flow returns back to a respectable number. Furthermore, while flying on the way home my engine analyzer started this curious behavior again. While slowly descending into my home airport I reduced power and watched everything come into sync. What got my attention next was that I felt the engine sort of "burp" or skip a bit. I pulled carb. heat and turned on the boost pump to cover my rear end. It was enough of a "burp" for me to take notice. So with that information in hand, what does this mean? You would think that low fuel pressure would = lowering fuel flow right? Conversely, the opposite should apply ... Does anyone here know what I'm dealing with other than that she's running beautifully. Thank you for you time and consideration. Jeff Paris N196ZP KSDC Williamson-Sodus CH601XL Jabiru 3300 _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: Fuel Pressure Question?
Date: Apr 06, 2008
Where is your fuel pressure sender? Between the mechanical pump and the engine? If so think of it this way: with a pump working against a dead-end pipe you would have the maximum pressure and no flow. As soon as you allow fuel to flow the pressure will drop and the flow rise. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey J Paris Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 3:19 PM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure Question? Dear Jabiru Engine Wonks, I have a question about fuel pressure and fuel flow. I currently own and fly a Zenith CH601XL equipped with a Jab 3300, I have about 192 hours on AF/PP. I am fortunate in flying with a fully TSO'd Xerion Auracle Engine monitor/analyzer. My two last flights I have noted some peculiarities with fuel pressure and fuel flow while flying. My engine analyzer at altitude sends up a warning message that fuel pressure is low/lowering and while all seems to be running right I noticed that my fuel flow numbers were going up? When I turn on my Facet boost pump the fuel pressure would go back into the normal green values and the fuel flow returns back to a respectable number. Furthermore, while flying on the way home my engine analyzer started this curious behavior again. While slowly descending into my home airport I reduced power and watched everything come into sync. What got my attention next was that I felt the engine sort of "burp" or skip a bit. I pulled carb. heat and turned on the boost pump to cover my rear end. It was enough of a "burp" for me to take notice. So with that information in hand, what does this mean? You would think that low fuel pressure would = lowering fuel flow right? Conversely, the opposite should apply ... Does anyone here know what I'm dealing with other than that she's running beautifully. Thank you for you time and consideration. Jeff Paris N196ZP KSDC Williamson-Sodus CH601XL Jabiru 3300 _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2008
From: Lancaster Aero Ltd <info(at)jabirucanada.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Question?
Dear Sir: I'm sorry but the two people that could help you, are in Florida at the Sun & Fun air show. They should be back on April 15. Stan or Gord will email you as soon as possible. Yvonne > > > >Dear Jabiru Engine Wonks, > >I have a question about fuel pressure and fuel flow. I currently >own and fly a Zenith CH601XL equipped with a Jab 3300, I have about >192 hours on AF/PP. I am fortunate in flying with a fully TSO'd >Xerion Auracle Engine monitor/analyzer. My two last flights I have >noted some peculiarities with fuel pressure and fuel flow while flying. > > My engine analyzer at altitude sends up a warning message that > fuel pressure is low/lowering and while all seems to be running > right I noticed that my fuel flow numbers were going up? When I > turn on my Facet boost pump the fuel pressure would go back into > the normal green values and the fuel flow returns back to a respectable number. > >Furthermore, while flying on the way home my engine analyzer >started this curious behavior again. While slowly descending into my >home airport I reduced power and watched everything come into >sync. What got my attention next was that I felt the engine sort of >"burp" or skip a bit. I pulled carb. heat and turned on the boost >pump to cover my rear end. It was enough of a "burp" for me to take notice. > >So with that information in hand, what does this mean? You would >think that low fuel pressure would = lowering fuel flow >right? Conversely, the opposite should apply ... Does anyone here >know what I'm dealing with other than that she's running beautifully. > >Thank you for you time and consideration. > >Jeff Paris >N196ZP KSDC Williamson-Sodus >CH601XL Jabiru 3300 > > >_______________________________________________ >Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com >The most personalized portal on the Web! > > >-- >Checked by AVG. >4/5/2008 7:53 AM Lancaster Aero Ltd. PO Box 56 Bainsville, ON K0C 1E0 Tel: (613) 347-3155 Fax:(613) 347-3074 Email: info(at)jabirucanada.com www.jabirucanada.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 07, 2008
Subject: Re: 2200 engine running question
I just started test flying an X-Air with a 2200 engine the engine starts great idles super but when I really give it a lot of throttle and put the plane in a steep climb it hitches on regular intervals for a while then it will run fine until I start climbing steep or make a steep turn what should I look for to cure this problem ? as long as I don't jab the throttle or make aggressive maneuvers it runs great Ellery in Maine do not archive (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2008
From: "RONAL SMITH" <ronal22(at)verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Jabiru Engine-List: 2200 engine running question
Ellery, You should contact Dave Jalanti dave(at)jabirups.com for some possible answers. He is the technical rep for Jabiru in your area. He lives in NY. His no. is 518-851-2095 in the evenings. It sounds like a fuel delivery problem to me, and Dave would be the one to ask. Good luck, Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?News:_Australian_Stimulus_Package-Jabiru_Engines_On_Sale?
Date: Apr 09, 2008
I found this at: http://kitplanesmag.blogspot.com/2008/04/news-australian-stimulus-packagejab iru.html Friday, April 4, 2008 News: Australian Stimulus Package-Jabiru Engines On Sale As the car ads say, "for a limited time only..." Jabiru's U.S. importers have announced that the 2200 and 3300 engines are being offered at reduced prices from now until April 15. Jabiru in Australia had ramped up production and appears to have slightly over corrected, so to move some metal, prices were dropped $2000 on the 120-hp 3300 (from $18,400 to $16,400) and $1000 on the 85-hp 2200 ($13,900 to $12,900). According to Jabiru Pacific's Jim McCormick, "We have engines on the way, arriving in the U.S. by the end of June or early July." The four- and six-cylinder air-cooled Jabiru engines are available through Jabiru USA in Shelbyville, Tennessee, or Jabiru Pacific in Fresno, California. Prices are the same from both sources. -- Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Andy- Being another windy, gusty day, I decided to look into making the ring and the guide vanes. (I have "before" temps that will suffice, but really wanted to get current figures) Much to my surprise, when I got the carb and rubber sleeve off, I saw that there was a ridge of rubber between the carb side and the engine side. Maybe the rubber sleeve manufacturer foresaw this gap as being a potential problem, and decided to fill it. It is still not a perfect world, as the rubber ridge is about .018" (about 1/2 mm) smaller in diameter than the carb bore. That means it is about .009" lower all around than the carb bore...no big deal, in my estimation. On the other side of the ridge, though, the (I'll call it) adapter snout...the part that is held onto the splitter housing/intake manifold with 4 bolts, is about 0.112" smaller than the ridge diameter, or 0.056" all around. This is where I will concentrate my efforts. I'll chuck up this piece, bore it to the carb diameter, and smooth and blend in this area. There is plenty of meat in this piece and I don't feel I will get anywhere near the groove in my efforts. The other problem that I see is that the two components don't come close enough together to touch the ridge on either side. The impression of the two parts,the carb and adapter piece, in the rubber look like they miss contacting the ridge by maybe 0.020"-0.030". So there is that little area that could cause some turbulence, but not as much as it would be if the ridge weren't there and a large gap existed. I don't know if all the rubber sleeves are created equal, or whether some were built without the ridge, or if I could find a similar sleeve if/when I need one. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 15, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Andy Silvester wrote: > Lynn, Sounds like a good plan! I know others have tried without > much success > with guide vanes upstream of the carb, so don't be too disappointed > if you > can't get much from it. The theory is good, however! I don't know > about the > successes gained by the poster on the Sonextalk forum; I'm not a > member and > I didn't fancy joining just for one message. As you say, one thing > at a time > and measure as much as you can, analysing afterwards on the ground. > > Cheers, Andy > > From: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com > [mailto:jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson > Sent: 15 April 2008 16:50 > To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality > > Thanks, Andy. I was going to go up today and get some really good > readings before I tore into the carb removal, ring building thing, > but it was just too windy and gusty to get readings that would supply > me with the "before" EGT's. Once I can get those, I'll go after the > "gold ring." : ) I may even try some air-straightening vanes inside > the tube just prior to the carb, but I want to do one thing at a time > in order to know what did what. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/490+ hrs > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Silvester" <andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Lynn, OK, I'm a bit surprised by the existence of that 'ridge' as the ones I inspected a while ago just had the two rounded ridges that locate in the grooves in the carb body and the intake side adapter. In between there was a gap, which I am suggesting filling. I guess the supplier changed the pattern slightly. Also, it's really not the AIR we're interested in keeping out of those spaces or grooves, it's FUEL. Remember, at around 12:1 - 14:1 air/fuel ratio, it doesn't take much extra fuel to upset the ration big-time. As fuel gets into that groove we think it swirls around due to air turbulence and then exits back into the airstream in an uncontrolled way, meaning that 'splashes' of fuel are re-introduced downstream of the carb. These splashes may-well form a liquid stream at some rpms and go down either the left or right side of the splitter, causing the mixture imbalance. The idea of the ring is to make as smooth a bore as possible right into the splitter from the carburettor, so the mixture of fuel and air has a better chance of going 50/50 past the splitter. Any left/right EGT (mixture) differences would then be due to turbulence or twisting of the air through the carb, and this could be improved by the guide vanes. I recommend doing whatever's needed to smooth-out the bore of the carb/coupler/adapter combination first, then tackle any turbulence separately before the carb in the intake system. In practice and if you have the right tool rake and cutting speed, you might use a boring tool to remove the existing ridge inside the coupler, then you have more space to fit a gap-ring. As always, more than one way to accomplish the job but the result should be the same. Hope this helps Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 16 April 2008 12:48 Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality Andy- Being another windy, gusty day, I decided to look into making the ring and the guide vanes. (I have "before" temps that will suffice, but really wanted to get current figures) Much to my surprise, when I got the carb and rubber sleeve off, I saw that there was a ridge of rubber between the carb side and the engine side. Maybe the rubber sleeve manufacturer foresaw this gap as being a potential problem, and decided to fill it. It is still not a perfect world, as the rubber ridge is about .018" (about 1/2 mm) smaller in diameter than the carb bore. That means it is about .009" lower all around than the carb bore...no big deal, in my estimation. On the other side of the ridge, though, the (I'll call it) adapter snout...the part that is held onto the splitter housing/intake manifold with 4 bolts, is about 0.112" smaller than the ridge diameter, or 0.056" all around. This is where I will concentrate my efforts. I'll chuck up this piece, bore it to the carb diameter, and smooth and blend in this area. There is plenty of meat in this piece and I don't feel I will get anywhere near the groove in my efforts. The other problem that I see is that the two components don't come close enough together to touch the ridge on either side. The impression of the two parts,the carb and adapter piece, in the rubber look like they miss contacting the ridge by maybe 0.020"-0.030". So there is that little area that could cause some turbulence, but not as much as it would be if the ridge weren't there and a large gap existed. I don't know if all the rubber sleeves are created equal, or whether some were built without the ridge, or if I could find a similar sleeve if/when I need one. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 15, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Andy Silvester wrote: > Lynn, Sounds like a good plan! I know others have tried without > much success > with guide vanes upstream of the carb, so don't be too disappointed > if you > can't get much from it. The theory is good, however! I don't know > about the > successes gained by the poster on the Sonextalk forum; I'm not a > member and > I didn't fancy joining just for one message. As you say, one thing > at a time > and measure as much as you can, analysing afterwards on the ground. > > Cheers, Andy > > From: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com > [mailto:jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson > Sent: 15 April 2008 16:50 > To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality > > Thanks, Andy. I was going to go up today and get some really good > readings before I tore into the carb removal, ring building thing, > but it was just too windy and gusty to get readings that would supply > me with the "before" EGT's. Once I can get those, I'll go after the > "gold ring." : ) I may even try some air-straightening vanes inside > the tube just prior to the carb, but I want to do one thing at a time > in order to know what did what. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/490+ hrs > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 16, 2008
I just got done boring out the adapter to the same diameter as the ridge in the coupler....about 1.672"...and blended the various machining operation marks out with a rubberized abrasive polishing "stone." Now the carb, coupler and adapter are fairly smooth in transition, all being about the same diameter, give or take a few thousandths. Next on the agenda is making the vanes. The pictures I've seen of the vanes show them as being short, but I'd really like to make mine follow the curve of the entire 6" long (measured right down the middle), 90 fiberglas tube that I made. In order to do it right, I might have to cut it in half...again...and insert the vanes, then 'glass it back together again. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 16, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Andy Silvester wrote: > > > Lynn, > > OK, I'm a bit surprised by the existence of that 'ridge' as the ones I > inspected a while ago just had the two rounded ridges that locate > in the > grooves in the carb body and the intake side adapter. In between > there was a > gap, which I am suggesting filling. I guess the supplier changed > the pattern > slightly. Also, it's really not the AIR we're interested in keeping > out of > those spaces or grooves, it's FUEL. Remember, at around 12:1 - 14:1 > air/fuel > ratio, it doesn't take much extra fuel to upset the ration big- > time. As fuel > gets into that groove we think it swirls around due to air > turbulence and > then exits back into the airstream in an uncontrolled way, meaning > that > 'splashes' of fuel are re-introduced downstream of the carb. These > splashes > may-well form a liquid stream at some rpms and go down either the > left or > right side of the splitter, causing the mixture imbalance. The idea > of the > ring is to make as smooth a bore as possible right into the > splitter from > the carburettor, so the mixture of fuel and air has a better chance > of going > 50/50 past the splitter. Any left/right EGT (mixture) differences > would then > be due to turbulence or twisting of the air through the carb, and > this could > be improved by the guide vanes. I recommend doing whatever's needed to > smooth-out the bore of the carb/coupler/adapter combination first, > then > tackle any turbulence separately before the carb in the intake > system. In > practice and if you have the right tool rake and cutting speed, you > might > use a boring tool to remove the existing ridge inside the coupler, > then you > have more space to fit a gap-ring. As always, more than one way to > accomplish the job but the result should be the same. > > Hope this helps > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lynn > Matteson > Sent: 16 April 2008 12:48 > To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com; jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality > > > > Andy- > Being another windy, gusty day, I decided to look into making the > ring and the guide vanes. (I have "before" temps that will suffice, > but really wanted to get current figures) Much to my surprise, when > I got the carb and rubber sleeve off, I saw that there was a ridge of > rubber between the carb side and the engine side. Maybe the rubber > sleeve manufacturer foresaw this gap as being a potential problem, > and decided to fill it. It is still not a perfect world, as the > rubber ridge is about .018" (about 1/2 mm) smaller in diameter than > the carb bore. That means it is about .009" lower all around than the > carb bore...no big deal, in my estimation. On the other side of the > ridge, though, the (I'll call it) adapter snout...the part that is > held onto the splitter housing/intake manifold with 4 bolts, is about > 0.112" smaller than the ridge diameter, or 0.056" all around. This is > where I will concentrate my efforts. I'll chuck up this piece, bore > it to the carb diameter, and smooth and blend in this area. There is > plenty of meat in this piece and I don't feel I will get anywhere > near the groove in my efforts. > > The other problem that I see is that the two components don't come > close enough together to touch the ridge on either side. The > impression of the two parts,the carb and adapter piece, in the rubber > look like they miss contacting the ridge by maybe 0.020"-0.030". So > there is that little area that could cause some turbulence, but not > as much as it would be if the ridge weren't there and a large gap > existed. I don't know if all the rubber sleeves are created equal, or > whether some were built without the ridge, or if I could find a > similar sleeve if/when I need one. I'll cross that bridge when I come > to it. > > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/490+ hrs > > > On Apr 15, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Andy Silvester wrote: > >> Lynn, Sounds like a good plan! I know others have tried without >> much success >> with guide vanes upstream of the carb, so don't be too disappointed >> if you >> can't get much from it. The theory is good, however! I don't know >> about the >> successes gained by the poster on the Sonextalk forum; I'm not a >> member and >> I didn't fancy joining just for one message. As you say, one thing >> at a time >> and measure as much as you can, analysing afterwards on the ground. >> >> Cheers, Andy >> >> From: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com >> [mailto:jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com] >> On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson >> Sent: 15 April 2008 16:50 >> To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality >> >> Thanks, Andy. I was going to go up today and get some really good >> readings before I tore into the carb removal, ring building thing, >> but it was just too windy and gusty to get readings that would supply >> me with the "before" EGT's. Once I can get those, I'll go after the >> "gold ring." : ) I may even try some air-straightening vanes inside >> the tube just prior to the carb, but I want to do one thing at a time >> in order to know what did what. >> >> Lynn Matteson >> Grass Lake, Michigan >> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 >> flying w/490+ hrs >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Here's a picture of my coupler, Andy and interested others, with the parting line of the mold running right around the middle of the ridge. You should be able to see the two "bumps", one on either side that locate the adapter and the carb. As this is my used coupler, you might also see a slight dimple between the ridge and the bump....this is where the carb or the adapter didn't come all the way into contact with the ridge, and it looks worse than it really is because of the shiny highlight on it. I'm awfully tempted to apply an RTV product right next to the ridge before assembly, then assemble carb, coupler and adapter together. Then reach inside and wipe off any squeezed-out RTV, before bolting the whole assembly to the engine. how about it, Andy...think that'll fill in the VERY little gap left between the carb and coupler, and the adapter and coupler? Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 16, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Andy Silvester wrote: > > > Lynn, > > OK, I'm a bit surprised by the existence of that 'ridge' as the ones I > inspected a while ago just had the two rounded ridges that locate > in the > grooves in the carb body and the intake side adapter. In between > there was a > gap, which I am suggesting filling. I guess the supplier changed > the pattern > slightly. Also, it's really not the AIR we're interested in keeping > out of > those spaces or grooves, it's FUEL. Remember, at around 12:1 - 14:1 > air/fuel > ratio, it doesn't take much extra fuel to upset the ration big- > time. As fuel > gets into that groove we think it swirls around due to air > turbulence and > then exits back into the airstream in an uncontrolled way, meaning > that > 'splashes' of fuel are re-introduced downstream of the carb. These > splashes > may-well form a liquid stream at some rpms and go down either the > left or > right side of the splitter, causing the mixture imbalance. The idea > of the > ring is to make as smooth a bore as possible right into the > splitter from > the carburettor, so the mixture of fuel and air has a better chance > of going > 50/50 past the splitter. Any left/right EGT (mixture) differences > would then > be due to turbulence or twisting of the air through the carb, and > this could > be improved by the guide vanes. I recommend doing whatever's needed to > smooth-out the bore of the carb/coupler/adapter combination first, > then > tackle any turbulence separately before the carb in the intake > system. In > practice and if you have the right tool rake and cutting speed, you > might > use a boring tool to remove the existing ridge inside the coupler, > then you > have more space to fit a gap-ring. As always, more than one way to > accomplish the job but the result should be the same. > > Hope this helps > > Andy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Silvester" <andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Lynn, A picture's worth a thousand words! That coupler is different to the older ones. Imagine the central ridge not being there, and that was where I proposed the additional ring should be. It's a little disappointing to see, as I was hoping for a big improvement in mixture distribution from your efforts. Nevertheless, I still think the joints between the 3 parts have a bearing on the way the fuel / air mixture (or more probably liquid fuel and air separately) flows down the pipe. I like the idea of RTV as a gap-seal, as long as it stays-put. The worst case scenario is that a sliver of sealant gets sucked into a cylinder - so what? I doubt very much it would block anything in the induction path or burn to form a hard piece causing damage. Others here might think of something I haven't but for now, it seems like a simple, cheap and effective solution. Once this is done if it makes negligible difference, then it HAS to be the air flowing thro' the carb in a helix, which we pretty-much knew anyway. Cheers, Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 16 April 2008 16:45 Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality Here's a picture of my coupler, Andy and interested others, with the parting line of the mold running right around the middle of the ridge. You should be able to see the two "bumps", one on either side that locate the adapter and the carb. As this is my used coupler, you might also see a slight dimple between the ridge and the bump....this is where the carb or the adapter didn't come all the way into contact with the ridge, and it looks worse than it really is because of the shiny highlight on it. I'm awfully tempted to apply an RTV product right next to the ridge before assembly, then assemble carb, coupler and adapter together. Then reach inside and wipe off any squeezed-out RTV, before bolting the whole assembly to the engine. how about it, Andy...think that'll fill in the VERY little gap left between the carb and coupler, and the adapter and coupler? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 16, 2008
Thanks, Andy....somebody at the coupling factory must have read your mind, because they sure made that gap go away. And just as we were going to get rich over building rings! : ) When I bored out the aluminum intake snout, that took an almost 1/16" mis-match in diameters out of the way of the airflow, so maybe a little was gained in looking into the gap situation, and perhaps not all the couplings ARE made with the gap-filling ridge, so it behooves owners to have a look and see. I just slit my curved fiberglas tube down the middle, and will make vanes to insert before I close it up again. I'll take pictures as I go so if anybody wants to copy it...IF IT WORKS...they can. In the meantime, let the winds blow and the rains come...I'm down for a day or so. : ) Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 16, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Andy Silvester wrote: > > > Lynn, > > A picture's worth a thousand words! That coupler is different to > the older > ones. Imagine the central ridge not being there, and that was where I > proposed the additional ring should be. It's a little disappointing > to see, > as I was hoping for a big improvement in mixture distribution from > your > efforts. Nevertheless, I still think the joints between the 3 parts > have a > bearing on the way the fuel / air mixture (or more probably liquid > fuel and > air separately) flows down the pipe. I like the idea of RTV as a > gap-seal, > as long as it stays-put. The worst case scenario is that a sliver > of sealant > gets sucked into a cylinder - so what? I doubt very much it would > block > anything in the induction path or burn to form a hard piece causing > damage. > Others here might think of something I haven't but for now, it > seems like a > simple, cheap and effective solution. Once this is done if it makes > negligible difference, then it HAS to be the air flowing thro' the > carb in a > helix, which we pretty-much knew anyway. > > Cheers, Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lynn > Matteson > Sent: 16 April 2008 16:45 > To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: [jabiruengines] EGTs and fuel > quality > > Here's a picture of my coupler, Andy and interested others, with > the parting > line of the mold running right around the middle of the ridge. You > should be > able to see the two "bumps", one on either side that locate the > adapter and > the carb. As this is my used coupler, you might also see a slight > dimple > between the ridge and the bump....this is where the carb or the > adapter > didn't come all the way into contact with the ridge, and it looks > worse than > it really is because of the shiny highlight on it. > > I'm awfully tempted to apply an RTV product right next to the ridge > before > assembly, then assemble carb, coupler and adapter together. > Then reach inside and wipe off any squeezed-out RTV, before bolting > the > whole assembly to the engine. how about it, Andy...think that'll > fill in the > VERY little gap left between the carb and coupler, and the adapter and > coupler? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: alternator wire gauge
I believe Pete K. and others have commented that the 3300 alternator has been known to put out as much as 25-28A if the battery is low enough and the RPM is high enough. This led to the well known recommendation to dispense with the Faston quick-tab connections at the regulator end and presumably, at the end of the alternator's own "pigtail" as well, in favor of soldered "hard" connections for better current carrying capability, etc. However, the wire coming out of the alternator looks like it's only 12 AWG, which is normally not rated for more than 20A. I realize that 12AWG will carry more than 20A for some indeterminate amount of time, at the cost/risk of substantial heat generation, but it gets hot enough for long enough, it's not going to last. (Not sure what gauge the two blue wires at the regulator are.) Because of the potential for 25-28A loads, I would normally choose to use 10 AWG between the alternator pigtail and the regulator/ANL current limiter, but there doesn't seem much point if the alternator pigtail is 12 AWG and already constitutes the weak link (unintended fusible link) in the circuit already. So the question is, what gauge is best and/or adequate between the alternator pigtail and the regulator/ANL? The length of this additional wire in my system will be roughly 24". Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [jabiruengines] Re: EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 18, 2008
Begin forwarded message: > From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> > Date: April 18, 2008 2:37:32 PM GMT-04:00 > To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Re: EGTs and fuel quality > > Chuck- > You may not have another groove to move the clip to...mine only had > one groove, but I'm serial #2062, with 40mm Bing. > I've got the Bing Aircraft Manual (if I could put my hands on my > copy, I'd quote it) and in it they state that you should not tune > the engine by changing the float level. It should remain the same, > and engine performance should be changed by changing the > appropriate needle, jet, or needle notch setting if the carb has > the ability to change. From what you said about changing the float > setting for full throttle, you really should change to a larger > main jet, not the float setting. This statement is also backed up > by personnel at Bing via phone call. I know that guys here have > changed the float level and gotten away with it, but they might > have had something else wrong to begin with, and the float change > corrected that, or they might have been too up/down to begin > with...hard to say. I'm still learning, but I'd rather do what the > Bing folks say, via manual or spoken word...they should know. > > As far as the 4" of straight is concerned, I'm not sure where I > read/heard that, so maybe I spoke out of turn. Suffice it to say it > should be as long as possible to really insure of straight flow. > Here are pictures of the tube I just got done modifying, by adding > vanes throughout its whole length of about 6", measured right down > the center. I cut my tube lengthwise and made fiberglas vanes > inside...quite an ordeal, but it didn't HURT the performance, but > time and a less windy day than today will tell if it did any good. > Whether or not it was what did it, but I can now open the throttle > as fast as my hand will open it, and it responds NOW. Of course, > the weather has improved since the last time I tried it, so the > variables might have something to do with it. I also climb at a > better rpm...now it's 2840 or so, and before it was 2750 or so, but > that was during cold weather, so I can't really compare apples to > apples here. > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/490+ hrs > > > On Apr 18, 2008, at 12:01 PM, cffd66 wrote: > >> Ralph, >> >> I recently fitted EGT's to my 2200 (#988). After the vanes on my web >> site, I then tried a rubber radiator hose but then the EGT's showed >> uneven temps and rough at full throttle. I then made another vaned >> coupler 4.5 inches long (two vanes: one horizontal, one vertical) >> with >> the vanes 4 inches long. After an S curve, the scat hose comes >> straight down to the coupler. The EGT's are all very close (50 >> deg) at >> all power settings. I am still getting data and may have to richen at >> full throttle (raise float) and then lean for cruise by lowering the >> needle. I do not have any of the new or old Jabiru tuning kits. >> Somewhere Lynn had told me the scat should be vertical with 4 inches >> straight and smooth into the carby. >> >> Chuck D. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivan" <imap8ntr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator wire gauge
Date: Apr 18, 2008
Ron, What do you mean "this led to the well known recommendation" for soldered hard connections? Who made the recommendation? Was it from Pete K? I have had the connections soldered and have not had any problems since. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Shannon To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 11:40 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: alternator wire gauge I believe Pete K. and others have commented that the 3300 alternator has been known to put out as much as 25-28A if the battery is low enough and the RPM is high enough. This led to the well known recommendation to dispense with the Faston quick-tab connections at the regulator end and presumably, at the end of the alternator's own "pigtail" as well, in favor of soldered "hard" connections for better current carrying capability, etc. However, the wire coming out of the alternator looks like it's only 12 AWG, which is normally not rated for more than 20A. I realize that 12AWG will carry more than 20A for some indeterminate amount of time, at the cost/risk of substantial heat generation, but it gets hot enough for long enough, it's not going to last. (Not sure what gauge the two blue wires at the regulator are.) Because of the potential for 25-28A loads, I would normally choose to use 10 AWG between the alternator pigtail and the regulator/ANL current limiter, but there doesn't seem much point if the alternator pigtail is 12 AWG and already constitutes the weak link (unintended fusible link) in the circuit already. So the question is, what gauge is best and/or adequate between the alternator pigtail and the regulator/ANL? The length of this additional wire in my system will be roughly 24". Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: alternator wire gauge
By "well known recommendation" I merely meant that, as I wrote, it has been frequently discussed on this and the Yahoo list that the existing Fast-on quick tab Molex-style connector will often get too hot & fry, so a hard wired connection is much preferred. And yes, as I already wrote, Pete has recommended and stated a strong preference for hard connections/splices several times, as have others. Ron On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Ivan wrote: > Ron, > What do you mean "this led to the well known recommendation" for soldered > hard connections? Who made the recommendation? Was it from Pete K? > > I have had the connections soldered and have not had any problems since. > > Ivan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivan" <imap8ntr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator wire gauge
Date: Apr 18, 2008
Ron Thanks for the info. I wish I knew about this a few months ago because it would have saved a few fried wires. The soldered connections made everything work just great. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Shannon To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 6:34 PM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: alternator wire gauge By "well known recommendation" I merely meant that, as I wrote, it has been frequently discussed on this and the Yahoo list that the existing Fast-on quick tab Molex-style connector will often get too hot & fry, so a hard wired connection is much preferred. And yes, as I already wrote, Pete has recommended and stated a strong preference for hard connections/splices several times, as have others. Ron On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Ivan wrote: Ron, What do you mean "this led to the well known recommendation" for soldered hard connections? Who made the recommendation? Was it from Pete K? I have had the connections soldered and have not had any problems since. Ivan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 19, 2008
Lynn, The 4 inch comment has my 2200 running its best. My SN is 988, Bob Vossman has SN 8XX. He has more than one groove in his needle. I think the carb data from Jabiru also shows mine with 3 grooves. My needle is a Bing and not from the Jab tuning kit. I will check my egt's one more time and then attack the carb, if need be. Chuck > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> > Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fwd: [jabiruengines] Re: EGTs and fuel quality > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> >> Date: April 18, 2008 2:37:32 PM GMT-04:00 >> To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Re: EGTs and fuel quality >> >> Chuck- >> You may not have another groove to move the clip to...mine only had >> one groove, but I'm serial #2062, with 40mm Bing. >> I've got the Bing Aircraft Manual (if I could put my hands on my ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 19, 2008
Chuck- I just flew my newly-modified and installed air duct (from airbox to carb) and it works fine. I'd say great, but it didn't even out the EGT's like I hoped, but it did *seem* to give me more WOT rpm. Of course the weather has changed since I last checked for WOT rpm, but before I'd have to point the nose down just a little to get 3000 rpm. Today I could fly level and get 3130 rpm. Again, the air density might have something to do with it. I'm also climbing out at about 90-100 rpm higher. It's a bitch to take down performance figures in the cold air, and by the time the changes are made, the weather does an "about face," and you have squat to compare to. Suffice it to say, the engine runs good now, so be it air-straightening vanes or better weather, I'm happy. One other thing I'm going to try...just for kicks...is to swap the SCAT hose for some SCEET hose from airbox to the vaned air duct. I just saw some SCEET hose, and that stuff is smooth inside! For just a few bucks more per foot, I'm going for it. After the initial flight today, I also changed to a 2.78 needle jet, up from the original 2.76 jet. (I had done this a few weeks ago, but changed float level too, and the combo had the engine stumbling, so I removed it at the time) That didn't change the EGT's all that much, but it did chase the hot EGT from #4 over to #3. I wasn't in the mood to write down a bunch of figures at the time, but I will, and report what I find. My carb had the 2005 Economy Kit on board when I bought it, and the jet and needle sizes were etched on the side of the carb. My needle number ended in -1, meaning one groove, as I understand it, and indeed it was a one-groove needle. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 19, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Chuck Deiterich wrote: > > > Lynn, > > The 4 inch comment has my 2200 running its best. My SN is 988, Bob > Vossman has SN 8XX. He has more than one groove in his needle. I > think the carb data from Jabiru also shows mine with 3 grooves. My > needle is a Bing and not from the Jab tuning kit. I will check my > egt's one more time and then attack the carb, if need be. > > Chuck > > >> ________________________________ Message 2 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> >> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fwd: [jabiruengines] Re: EGTs and fuel >> quality >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> >>> Date: April 18, 2008 2:37:32 PM GMT-04:00 >>> To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Re: EGTs and fuel quality >>> >>> Chuck- >>> You may not have another groove to move the clip to...mine only had >>> one groove, but I'm serial #2062, with 40mm Bing. >>> I've got the Bing Aircraft Manual (if I could put my hands on my > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 20, 2008
Lynn I have also been chasing a better fuel/air distribution and have finished with the Bing because I was looking for better control of mixture. I have been test flying with a TBI conversion using a 45mm throttle body with two injectors controlled by ECU in the Q-200 airframe powered by the J3300. I have total control of mix and can over ride the fuel map using a potentiometer. But EGT is still uneven and it varies according to engine load and rpm. I am monitoring EGT at #5 and #6 and see even T at top of climb but then have seen up to 100degC variance as the load and rpm changes in level flight. I discussed this with one of the engineers at the factory. He has seen up to 200 deg variance. His advice is to experiment with the intake hose as you have done but I do not believe it will solve for even EGT. The variance is worst when the engine is lean but the Bing has been set up to go rich above 2700rpm. When my EGT variance was at its worst the engine began to shake because of the uneven power strokes R to L and I think this condition could contribute to the fly wheel bolt problem. Like you I have been testing for best rpm at WOT but I am over propped somewhat and the engine has only done about 40 hrs. It is too tight to re start when hot. I am getting a TAS of 184 KTS in the Quickie at 2950 RPM WOT but I think there is more potential. I think the uneven mix is caused by the lack of a reasonable sized induction manifold. The jab has only a collector of less than 1/2L capacity and induction pulses as valves close are interfering with the incoming fuel air mix. The condition varies with RPM. As an experiment I am making dual manifolds with a cross pipe using standard SS tube fittings in 64mm diameter x 1.6, The throttle body will feed the cross pipe from a 63mm tee. Total capacity is about 3.5L. I hope to test fly within a couple of weeks and will be able to report with pics then. If successful I have since found a source prepared to make the fittings in 1.6mm Al tube. My SS manifold has added about 1.5KG net to the weight.The fittings are expensive . Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Sunday, 20 April 2008 3:36 AM Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: EGTs and fuel quality Chuck- I just flew my newly-modified and installed air duct (from airbox to carb) and it works fine. I'd say great, but it didn't even out the EGT's like I hoped, but it did *seem* to give me more WOT rpm. Of course the weather has changed since I last checked for WOT rpm, but before I'd have to point the nose down just a little to get 3000 rpm. Today I could fly level and get 3130 rpm. Again, the air density might have something to do with it. I'm also climbing out at about 90-100 rpm higher. It's a bitch to take down performance figures in the cold air, and by the time the changes are made, the weather does an "about face," and you have squat to compare to. Suffice it to say, the engine runs good now, so be it air-straightening vanes or better weather, I'm happy. One other thing I'm going to try...just for kicks...is to swap the SCAT hose for some SCEET hose from airbox to the vaned air duct. I just saw some SCEET hose, and that stuff is smooth inside! For just a few bucks more per foot, I'm going for it. After the initial flight today, I also changed to a 2.78 needle jet, up from the original 2.76 jet. (I had done this a few weeks ago, but changed float level too, and the combo had the engine stumbling, so I removed it at the time) That didn't change the EGT's all that much, but it did chase the hot EGT from #4 over to #3. I wasn't in the mood to write down a bunch of figures at the time, but I will, and report what I find. My carb had the 2005 Economy Kit on board when I bought it, and the jet and needle sizes were etched on the side of the carb. My needle number ended in -1, meaning one groove, as I understand it, and indeed it was a one-groove needle. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 19, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Chuck Deiterich wrote: > > > Lynn, > > The 4 inch comment has my 2200 running its best. My SN is 988, Bob > Vossman has SN 8XX. He has more than one groove in his needle. I > think the carb data from Jabiru also shows mine with 3 grooves. My > needle is a Bing and not from the Jab tuning kit. I will check my > egt's one more time and then attack the carb, if need be. > > Chuck > > >> ________________________________ Message 2 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> >> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fwd: [jabiruengines] Re: EGTs and fuel >> quality >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> >>> Date: April 18, 2008 2:37:32 PM GMT-04:00 >>> To: jabiruengines(at)yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Re: EGTs and fuel quality >>> >>> Chuck- >>> You may not have another groove to move the clip to...mine only had >>> one groove, but I'm serial #2062, with 40mm Bing. >>> I've got the Bing Aircraft Manual (if I could put my hands on my > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Silvester" <andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: Re: EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 20, 2008
Lynn, Good work on the improvements! I'm sure many of us have found the same situation of not knowing *exactly* what brings better performance, especially when we are talking about a few % only, but those RPM increases are significant. A note about SCEET ducting; I've used it with success on the intake. Someone once told me that SCAT ducting has an equivalent resistance of 23, meaning that 1 foot of SCAT ducting has the same resistance to airflow as 23 feet of smooth-bore pipe! SCEET will be better, but bear in mind one down-side which I'm sure won't affect you. The inner 'skin' of the duct can perish and suck flat if given enough time and bad maintenance. It's a fair point, and a few A&Ps have told me it's a no-no to use it on anything below ambient pressure, i.e. a carburettor intake. My response (while being sympathetic to the argument) was that most Experimental aircraft get better maintenance than certificated types(!) and therefore the idea of a piece of duct not being internally inspected for (say) 5 years or more is less likely in our world (.....or is it??!!) Keep up the good work, Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 19 April 2008 14:36 Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: EGTs and fuel quality Chuck- I just flew my newly-modified and installed air duct (from airbox to carb) and it works fine. I'd say great, but it didn't even out the EGT's like I hoped, but it did *seem* to give me more WOT rpm. Of course the weather has changed since I last checked for WOT rpm, but before I'd have to point the nose down just a little to get 3000 rpm. Today I could fly level and get 3130 rpm. Again, the air density might have something to do with it. I'm also climbing out at about 90-100 rpm higher. It's a bitch to take down performance figures in the cold air, and by the time the changes are made, the weather does an "about face," and you have squat to compare to. Suffice it to say, the engine runs good now, so be it air-straightening vanes or better weather, I'm happy. One other thing I'm going to try...just for kicks...is to swap the SCAT hose for some SCEET hose from airbox to the vaned air duct. I just saw some SCEET hose, and that stuff is smooth inside! For just a few bucks more per foot, I'm going for it. After the initial flight today, I also changed to a 2.78 needle jet, up from the original 2.76 jet. (I had done this a few weeks ago, but changed float level too, and the combo had the engine stumbling, so I removed it at the time) That didn't change the EGT's all that much, but it did chase the hot EGT from #4 over to #3. I wasn't in the mood to write down a bunch of figures at the time, but I will, and report what I find. My carb had the 2005 Economy Kit on board when I bought it, and the jet and needle sizes were etched on the side of the carb. My needle number ended in -1, meaning one groove, as I understand it, and indeed it was a one-groove needle. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: EGTs and fuel quality
Date: Apr 20, 2008
Thanks for the input, Andy....I sure didn't know about, or probably would not have thought about, the inner skin sucking in, but it makes sense. I'll give that one some thought, but like you said, maintain it and it'll probably be OK. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 20, 2008, at 12:43 PM, Andy Silvester wrote: > > > Lynn, > > Good work on the improvements! I'm sure many of us have found the same > situation of not knowing *exactly* what brings better performance, > especially when we are talking about a few % only, but those RPM > increases > are significant. A note about SCEET ducting; I've used it with > success on > the intake. Someone once told me that SCAT ducting has an equivalent > resistance of 23, meaning that 1 foot of SCAT ducting has the same > resistance to airflow as 23 feet of smooth-bore pipe! SCEET will be > better, > but bear in mind one down-side which I'm sure won't affect you. The > inner > 'skin' of the duct can perish and suck flat if given enough time > and bad > maintenance. It's a fair point, and a few A&Ps have told me it's a > no-no to > use it on anything below ambient pressure, i.e. a carburettor > intake. My > response (while being sympathetic to the argument) was that most > Experimental aircraft get better maintenance than certificated types > (!) and > therefore the idea of a piece of duct not being internally > inspected for > (say) 5 years or more is less likely in our world (.....or is it??!!) > > Keep up the good work, Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lynn > Matteson > Sent: 19 April 2008 14:36 > To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: EGTs and fuel quality > > > > Chuck- > I just flew my newly-modified and installed air duct (from airbox to > carb) and it works fine. I'd say great, but it didn't even out the > EGT's like I hoped, but it did *seem* to give me more WOT rpm. Of > course the weather has changed since I last checked for WOT rpm, but > before I'd have to point the nose down just a little to get 3000 rpm. > Today I could fly level and get 3130 rpm. Again, the air density > might have something to do with it. I'm also climbing out at about > 90-100 rpm higher. It's a bitch to take down performance figures in > the cold air, and by the time the changes are made, the weather does > an "about face," and you have squat to compare to. Suffice it to say, > the engine runs good now, so be it air-straightening vanes or better > weather, I'm happy. One other thing I'm going to try...just for > kicks...is to swap the SCAT hose for some SCEET hose from airbox to > the vaned air duct. I just saw some SCEET hose, and that stuff is > smooth inside! For just a few bucks more per foot, I'm going for it. > > After the initial flight today, I also changed to a 2.78 needle jet, > up from the original 2.76 jet. (I had done this a few weeks ago, but > changed float level too, and the combo had the engine stumbling, so I > removed it at the time) That didn't change the EGT's all that much, > but it did chase the hot EGT from #4 over to #3. I wasn't in the mood > to write down a bunch of figures at the time, but I will, and report > what I find. > > My carb had the 2005 Economy Kit on board when I bought it, and the > jet and needle sizes were etched on the side of the carb. My needle > number ended in -1, meaning one groove, as I understand it, and > indeed it was a one-groove needle. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/490+ hrs > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: alternator wire gauge
From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2008
Ron, Per the the AC43.13-1B conductor sizing chart, 12 ga wire is good for the following current ratings on a 14V system: Up to 5 feet = 50 amps, up to 8 feet = 30 amps and up to 11.5 feet = 20 amps. If in a big bundle, de-rate to the chart a few pages further back in the book. I cannot comment on your fast-on tab question, but 12 ga wire size should be just fine. It is what I am using, but I have not gone past a few low speed grounds runs yet myself. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, working on final assembly. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178100#178100 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Floscan sensor
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>
Date: Apr 22, 2008
I can get my hands on a lightly used floscan transducer dirt cheap. It is a model 201B-18. Looking on Floscan's website I see specs on a 201B-6 but I haven't had luck finding specs on the -18. Does any one know if this unit is suitable for use with a Jab 3300 and it's expected fuel flow rates? Tim Juhl -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178552#178552 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Floscan sensor
Date: Apr 23, 2008
Tim FWIW I have been successfully using a Navman which has a rather cumbersome turbine transducer and no doubt effects my gravity feed to the pump. I find the fuel flow meter one of the most useful in the cockpit especially for managing fuel flow on a cross country. And it shows remaining fuel with an accuracy of 2%. Peter H -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 9:09 AM Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Floscan sensor I can get my hands on a lightly used floscan transducer dirt cheap. It is a model 201B-18. Looking on Floscan's website I see specs on a 201B-6 but I haven't had luck finding specs on the -18. Does any one know if this unit is suitable for use with a Jab 3300 and it's expected fuel flow rates? Tim Juhl -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178552#178552 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2008
From: Charles Gallagher <crg326(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Floscan sensor
Tim, the "B" in the model number denotes a flow rate of 0.6 to 60 GPH and is recommended for 100 to 200 HP. If you do install the flow meter double check the flow direction before you button every thing up. Also, the FLOW SCAN support is good before and after your installation , base on my experience on a marine application. Rgs.,Charles Gallagher I can get my hands on a lightly used floscan transducer dirt cheap. It is a model 201B-18. Looking on Floscan's website I see specs on a 201B-6 but I haven't had luck finding specs on the -18. Does any one know if this unit is suitable for use with a Jab 3300 and it's expected fuel flow rates? Tim Juhl -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178552#178552 --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Subject: Oxygen Analyzer
Date: Apr 23, 2008
has anyone installed an oxygen analyzer on the 3300 Jabiru. i think it would be of interest to know if the mixture was in the ball park at different power settings. i have purchased one but have not installed it yet. don't really know if i should. it would probably have to be put in the muffler or exhaust pipe and that would be an average of all cylinders rather than telling if one was lean or rich. i am still running too hot on #5 & 6 cylinders. i have changed the baffles around recently but have not had a chance to fly with the new configuration. any ideas?? bobby 601XL N131BP 65 hrs. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Four New Email Lists At Matronics!!
Dear Listers, I have added four new Lists to the Matronics line up today. These include the following categories: Citabria-List Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, and Champ Zenith601-List Zenair Zodiac CH 601 Zenith640-List Zenair Zodiac CH 640 Zenith701801-List Zenair STOL CH 701 and CH 801 All services are enabled and now available including Search, Browse, Digest, Archives, Forums, Chat, etc., etc. etc...: Citabria: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?citabria-list Zenith601: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith601-list Zenith640: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith640-list Zenith701801: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith701801-list To subscribe, go to the Matronics Email List Subscription Form: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe To check the new Lists out on the Matronics Forum go here: http://forums.matronics.com Enjoy the new Lists!! Don't forget me during the Fund Raiser! :-) Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Float Level
Date: Apr 27, 2008
My EGT's at WOT are a little high 1250 F, while the cruise is a little rich 1200 F. Jabiriu 2200, serial # 988, solid lifters, Bing 40mm carb, no tuning kit, main jet 255, needle jet 276. Does anyone know how much the WOT EGT's would go down by raising the float 1/32"? Then I can lower the needle to lean cruise. Chuck D. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Float Level
Date: Apr 27, 2008
The Bing manual for the carb says NOT to change the float (from what they suggest) to cure a problem, but to cure the problem by addressing either the main, the needle jet or the jet needle, whichever "neighborhood" the problem resides in (my analogy). I've read of guys who have adjusted the float height, but Bing says not to. Are you sure you have a "lowerable needle"? Mine is not, having only one groove for the snap ring. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 27, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Chuck Deiterich wrote: > My EGT's at WOT are a little high 1250 F, while the cruise is a > little rich 1200 F. > Jabiriu 2200, serial # 988, solid lifters, Bing 40mm carb, no > tuning kit, main jet 255, needle jet 276. > Does anyone know how much the WOT EGT's would go down by raising > the float 1/32"? > Then I can lower the needle to lean cruise. > Chuck D. > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: Re: Float Level
Date: Apr 28, 2008
Lynn, I am sure I have a needle with several grooves. When I replaced the float needle with one that has a stronger built in spring (black), I did not readjust the float. The spring in the old needle (orange) would compress at 1.5 Oz, while the spring in new needle takes 31 Oz to compress (yes 20 times more). This means that any compression of the weaker spring would effectively have a higher float level. Thus my float may be a bit low. The 255 main is larger than what Jabiru now puts in the Bing. SB 18-1 says mine came with a 250 but it did not, as the main jet size is scribed in the side of the carb body and on the jet itself. Lately they are using a 245 main jet. Needle jet sizes can be misleading as the needles used are different. Chuck D. > > From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Float Level > > > The Bing manual for the carb says NOT to change the float (from what > they suggest) to cure a problem, but to cure the problem by > addressing either the main, the needle jet or the jet needle, > whichever "neighborhood" the problem resides in (my analogy). I've > read of guys who have adjusted the float height, but Bing says not > to. Are you sure you have a "lowerable needle"? Mine is not, having > only one groove for the snap ring. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd(at)pgrb.com>
Subject: SB18-1
Date: Apr 28, 2008
Lynn, SB18-1 also says for my serial number (988) the needle jet is 276 (which it is) and the Bing needle is in the second position from the bottom. Chuck PS I like this forum better than yahoo. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Silvester" <andy(at)suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: Re: Float Level
Date: Apr 28, 2008
Chuck, You did the right thing to change the float needle for the stronger (spring) one as it gives a better seating. However, I would follow Jabiru's advice NOT to try adjusting the mixture with the float level. You might get away with it, but our advice was always to change mixture settings on the pre-economy tuning by raising or lowering the jet needle for fine adjustment, and if this wasn't enough, change the needle jet for a bigger one and reset the needle to the 'standard' position which is groove #2, or one-up from the bottom. If the Wide-Open-Throttle (WOT) setting was too rich, you could go to a smaller main-jet size but as others have said here, the relationship between the needle shape and resulting jet orifices (?) meant that in practice, you could actually remove the main jet completely and there would be no real difference in WOT mixture, because the fuel still has to get past the needle jet, which at most throttle/slide positions, controlled the mixture. The economy tuning definitely improved the cruise and WOT mixture relationships with a new needle shape, so they went for just jet-changing rather than (also) needle height adjustment for mixture alteration. This is why the 'older' straight-tapered needles have 4 grooves for adjustment, but the new economy needles only have one. The guy who developed the new needle shape told me he'd prefer the new setup to be called 'more tunable' rather than 'economy' as it is the needle that provides the right relationship now between cruise (relatively lean) and WOT (relatively rich). Unfortunately, the new setup got off to a poor start as they'd not allowed for the over-lean conditions present in the carb / induction when operating in lower temperatures, hence with experience the successive guidance to go bigger on jets to richen the whole range, but particularly cruise. You may also be unaware that Jabiru went through a phase a few years back of drilling-out jets to achieve the required mixture, so what was stamped on the jet wasn't necessarily the size of the hole.....This was from memory on 2200s before the year 2000, or so, but ask your dealer as they have factory information (I'm afraid I don't at present). To compound the issues, my understanding is that the sizes stamped on main jets don't correspond to the jet diameter, but on needle jets they do! This means a 2.80 needle jet has a 2.80mm hole, but I'm pretty sure a 255 main jet isn't 2.55mm. I have no clue why this is. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Deiterich Sent: 28 April 2008 15:16 Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Float Level Lynn, I am sure I have a needle with several grooves. When I replaced the float needle with one that has a stronger built in spring (black), I did not readjust the float. The spring in the old needle (orange) would compress at 1.5 Oz, while the spring in new needle takes 31 Oz to compress (yes 20 times more). This means that any compression of the weaker spring would effectively have a higher float level. Thus my float may be a bit low. The 255 main is larger than what Jabiru now puts in the Bing. SB 18-1 says mine came with a 250 but it did not, as the main jet size is scribed in the side of the carb body and on the jet itself. Lately they are using a 245 main jet. Needle jet sizes can be misleading as the needles used are different. Chuck D. > > From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Float Level > > > The Bing manual for the carb says NOT to change the float (from what > they suggest) to cure a problem, but to cure the problem by > addressing either the main, the needle jet or the jet needle, > whichever "neighborhood" the problem resides in (my analogy). I've > read of guys who have adjusted the float height, but Bing says not > to. Are you sure you have a "lowerable needle"? Mine is not, having > only one groove for the snap ring. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: "THOMAS SMALL" <tjs22t(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Float Level
> To compound the issues, my > understanding is that the sizes stamped on main jets don't correspond to > the > jet diameter, but on needle jets they do! This means a 2.80 needle jet has > a > 2.80mm hole, but I'm pretty sure a 255 main jet isn't 2.55mm. I have no > clue > why this is. Andy, Nor do I, but I can verify that what you say about "older" jets being drilled out is true. On my #051 3300 both the needle jet and the main jet had been drilled out and were not close to what was stamped on them. I took to using my set of # drills to figure out what I had before experimenting. Really would have been nice to know that from the factory. Jabiru seem to be blind to many common sense pieces of info their customers deserve. cheers jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2008
From: "RONAL SMITH" <ronal22(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Float Level
My understanding is that any EGT temp. 1400 F or below is fine with the Jabiru 2200 engine. I was getting temps up to 1500, so I changed the needle jet from 276 to 280 and the main jet from 220 to 240. Now my high temp in cruise is 1375 with the OAT 65 F or above. My engine is Ser. No. 2030. Ron Smith Kitfox 4 with Jabiru 2200 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: SB18-1
Date: Apr 29, 2008
I agree on this forum, Chuck....much better than the other. JSB018-1 says my needle is 4A138AOD-2 which it is not. Mine is 4A138AOD-1, which I assumed was a "1" groove needle, and by actual inspection it is. I seem to recall that Jabiru used a proprietary needle on the later carbs, and maybe they felt that one groove was enough, and didn't want the average joe messing around with tuning the various needle positions....I guess they were wrong. : ) Incidentally, I switched from the 276 needle jet to the 278 jet, and it did not make a difference worth noting. I had been told it would drop EG temps about 30 F. If it did, then weather conditions were also different, so the change was not noticeable. I'm planning on drilling my old 276 out to a larger number than the present 278 (still in engine) and see if the EGT change is noticeable. I'd rather not drill it myself, relying on the "factory" drilling to be more accurate, but I figure I'll never go back to the 276, so why not give home drilling a go....I've got a lathe, so I can't hurt it too much....a whole lot better than holding it with pliers and having a neighbor wobble a drill in there. : ) This I would NOT advise! Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 28, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Chuck Deiterich wrote: > Lynn, > > SB18-1 also says for my serial number (988) the needle jet is 276 > (which it is) and the Bing needle is in the second position from > the bottom. > > Chuck > PS I like this forum better than yahoo. > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Float Level
Date: Apr 29, 2008
Chuck- It must be that since your engine and mine, they changed their thinking on jet needles, and sent mine with only one groove. I have all three float needles, and I concur with your reading of 1.5 oz on the "silver-springed" light needle. My "gold-springed" medium needle scales at between 4-5 oz, and my "black-springed" high needle is in the plane at this time, so I defer to your reading of 31 oz. The silver, gold, and black colors are what I observed, and are not "official" by Bing. They refer to the three needles as "float needle light" , "float needle medium", and "float needle heavy." I ended up with all three due to various fartings around with the carb. I'm pretty sure the number of my main (#220) conforms to the size etched on the carb, but as Andy said earlier..... "You may also be unaware that Jabiru went through a phase a few years back of drilling-out jets to achieve the required mixture, so what was stamped on the jet wasn't necessarily the size of the hole.....This was from memory on 2200s before the year 2000, or so, but ask your dealer as they have factory information (I'm afraid I don't at present). To compound the issues, my understanding is that the sizes stamped on main jets don't correspond to the jet diameter, but on needle jets they do! This means a 2.80 needle jet has a 2.80mm hole, but I'm pretty sure a 255 main jet isn't 2.55mm. I have no clue why this is." .....that number may or may not be of value. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs On Apr 28, 2008, at 10:15 AM, Chuck Deiterich wrote: > > > Lynn, > > I am sure I have a needle with several grooves. > When I replaced the float needle with one that has a stronger built > in spring (black), I did not readjust the float. The spring in the > old needle (orange) would compress at 1.5 Oz, while the spring in > new needle takes 31 Oz to compress (yes 20 times more). This means > that any compression of the weaker spring would effectively have a > higher float level. Thus my float may be a bit low. The 255 main > is larger than what Jabiru now puts in the Bing. SB 18-1 says mine > came with a 250 but it did not, as the main jet size is scribed in > the side of the carb body and on the jet itself. Lately they are > using a 245 main jet. Needle jet sizes can be misleading as the > needles used are different.


February 06, 2008 - April 30, 2008

JabiruEngine-Archive.digest.vol-ae