JabiruEngine-Archive.digest.vol-as
March 15, 2012 - July 20, 2012
Thanks,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
| From: | Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
Sent: Thu, Mar 15, 2012 8:51 am
| Subject: | Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermitte |
nt shutdown
The diode is installed between the solenoid activation terminal (where the
ire comes from the switch) and ground.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
rom: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dwwilt
ent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 2:34 AM
o: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
ubject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermittent
hutdown
I never found the reason for the failure. After checking everything out an
d
hming the system, the plane started fine and the mag check was fine.
nnerving to me, because there has to be a reason for the problem. I
rdered a new switch and replaced it. I opened up the old switch and did
ot find anything unusual. However, with the Jabiru starter solenoid, the
onnections are not similar to those on other starter solenoids I am
amiliar with. I have not found where the surge protection diode was
nstalled originally and I believe it was not installed. I did not do this
art of the wiring on my plane. So, my question is, how do you connect the
urge protection diode?
--------
ennis
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368570#368570
-========================
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
| Subject: | Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermittent |
shutdown
We remove the round eyelet and install in the slide on connector with the
wire from the starter.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis W.
Wilt
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos,
intermittent shutdown
Pete, I know where the diode is supposed to go. The issue is the difference
in connectors on the starter relay vs the diode. The Jabiru Starter Relay
has a slide-on connector and the diode has a round bolt-on connector you
would see on a Piper or Cessna starter relay. I was wondering how other
people made this connection. The diode could be installed on the ignition
switch (electrically this would be the same as on the relay) or the
connector on the diode could be removed and the diode could be crimped onto
the slide-on connector that matches the starter relay.
Thanks,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning <http://www.flylightning.net/> S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com>
Sent: Thu, Mar 15, 2012 8:51 am
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos,
intermittent shutdown
The diode is installed between the solenoid activation terminal (where the
wire comes from the switch) and ground.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
] On Behalf Of dwwilt
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 2:34 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermittent
shutdown
I never found the reason for the failure. After checking everything out and
ohming the system, the plane started fine and the mag check was fine.
Unnerving to me, because there has to be a reason for the problem. I
ordered a new switch and replaced it. I opened up the old switch and did
not find anything unusual. However, with the Jabiru starter solenoid, the
connections are not similar to those on other starter solenoids I am
familiar with. I have not found where the surge protection diode was
installed originally and I believe it was not installed. I did not do this
part of the wiring on my plane. So, my question is, how do you connect the
surge protection diode?
--------
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368570#368570
ist" target=_blank
saprocessedanchor="true">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Lis
t
rocessedanchor="true">http://forums.matronics.com
blank saprocessedanchor="true">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermittent |
shutdown
| From: | "Dennis W. Wilt" <dwwilt(at)aol.com> |
Thanks, I thought that may be the case.
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com>
Sent: Thu, Mar 15, 2012 10:01 am
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermitte
nt shutdown
We remove the round eyelet and install in the slide on connector with the w
ire from the starter.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengi
ne-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis W. Wilt
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermitte
nt shutdown
Pete, I know where the diode is supposed to go. The issue is the differenc
e in connectors on the starter relay vs the diode. The Jabiru Starter Rela
y has a slide-on connector and the diode has a round bolt-on connector you
would see on a Piper or Cessna starter relay. I was wondering how other pe
ople made this connection. The diode could be installed on the ignition sw
itch (electrically this would be the same as on the relay) or the connector
on the diode could be removed and the diode could be crimped onto the slid
e-on connector that matches the starter relay.
Thanks,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com>
Sent: Thu, Mar 15, 2012 8:51 am
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermitte
nt shutdown
The diode is installed between the solenoid activation terminal (where the
wire comes from the switch) and ground.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dwwilt
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 2:34 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermittent
shutdown
I never found the reason for the failure. After checking everything out an
d
ohming the system, the plane started fine and the mag check was fine.
Unnerving to me, because there has to be a reason for the problem. I
ordered a new switch and replaced it. I opened up the old switch and did
not find anything unusual. However, with the Jabiru starter solenoid, the
connections are not similar to those on other starter solenoids I am
familiar with. I have not found where the surge protection diode was
installed originally and I believe it was not installed. I did not do this
part of the wiring on my plane. So, my question is, how do you connect the
surge protection diode?
--------
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368570#368570
ist" target=_blank saprocessedanchor="true">http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?JabiruEngine-List
rocessedanchor="true">http://forums.matronics.com
blank saprocessedanchor="true">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jabiru Chile" <info(at)jabiru.cl> |
| Subject: | Re: worn valve guides |
Hi Group,
We found the same problem here in a 6 cylinder engine with about 80 hours of
use, last year. We send the engine back to Australia for inspection, and the
guides were changed to the correct size.
Christian Tannen
Jabiru Chile
-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] En nombre de Tex Mantell
Enviado el: martes, 13 de marzo de 2012 8:31
Para: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com; lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Asunto: Lightning-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
--> Lightning-List message posted by: "Tex Mantell"
Nick, thanks for the info. Have come to the same conclusion that the guides
were oversize for all the cylinders wore the same. Again thanks for the
info. Tex
----- Original Message -----
From: "xair899" <nickgeh(at)eircom.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:59 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
>
> Tex,
> Here in the UK guides were found "worn" at less than 50hrs. Careful
> measurement showed they were exactly 7.50mm bore, where the standard guide
> should be 7.05mm. Looks suspiciously like human error!
> Once the batch passed through the system, that particular problem went
> away. Not sure what serial number engines were affected.
> The majority of the oil fed to the heads is dumped on the inlet valve
> rather than the exhaust which really needs it. Try to persuade it to go
> where it would do more good - see Jabiru info on French site "Contrails"
> for some ideas.
>
> Nick
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368330#368330
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tex Mantell" <wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: worn valve guides |
thank you for the reply. Tex
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jabiru Chile" <info(at)jabiru.cl>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
>
> Hi Group,
> We found the same problem here in a 6 cylinder engine with about 80 hours
> of
> use, last year. We send the engine back to Australia for inspection, and
> the
> guides were changed to the correct size.
>
>
> Christian Tannen
> Jabiru Chile
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] En nombre de Tex
> Mantell
> Enviado el: martes, 13 de marzo de 2012 8:31
> Para: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com; lightning-list(at)matronics.com
> Asunto: Lightning-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
>
> --> Lightning-List message posted by: "Tex Mantell"
>
>
> Nick, thanks for the info. Have come to the same conclusion that the
> guides
> were oversize for all the cylinders wore the same. Again thanks for the
> info. Tex
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "xair899" <nickgeh(at)eircom.net>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:59 AM
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
>
>
>>
>> Tex,
>> Here in the UK guides were found "worn" at less than 50hrs. Careful
>> measurement showed they were exactly 7.50mm bore, where the standard
>> guide
>
>> should be 7.05mm. Looks suspiciously like human error!
>> Once the batch passed through the system, that particular problem went
>> away. Not sure what serial number engines were affected.
>> The majority of the oil fed to the heads is dumped on the inlet valve
>> rather than the exhaust which really needs it. Try to persuade it to go
>> where it would do more good - see Jabiru info on French site "Contrails"
>> for some ideas.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368330#368330
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tex Mantell" <wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com> |
| Subject: | putting things in perspective |
Don't you just love it "putting things In perspective" . Thank God for
the web site we have to share our experiences. If "putting things in
perspective" is to completely ignore a question related to ones
products, don't seem proper to me. I have two Jabiru engines and a
Lightning,and I am directly responsible for the sale of two airplanes
and about 6 engines. I love the products from Tennessee and am really
disappointed by the responses from Pete. Its quite evident from the
others around the world *there is a problem* and with the help and Ideas
gathered here on the web site I am sure to correct it.
Tex
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
| Subject: | putting things in perspective |
Tex,
Since you posted here as well I'll copy the response I sent to your
lightning-list posting:
Tex,
I gave you the facts as I have seen them over the years. I've sold a lot of
engines and very few valve guides. What do you want - some story about huge
valve guide problems that are not happening? I don't think I misstated
anything in my reply to you. This occurrence is evident in a few cases
around the world but not many when put in context of the number of engines
sold. In the USA when we hear of a valve guide issue we fix it. If we
should find a valve guide that was over size from the factory we'll fix it
at Jabiru's expense but we have not found and engine yet with factory
oversize guides. I do expect that I will find one sooner or later IF there
truly are engines with oversize guides sent out by Jabiru.
Sorry to disappoint you in my response. I suppose I could have commiserated
with you and told you how awful your situation is but I would much rather
be honest and tell you what we are seeing and have seen over the last 12
years. If you have a valve guide problem how come we've not seen your heads
here for diagnosis and repair? Do you want the problem fixed or do you want
to just complain about it.
Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
931-680-2800
www.usjabiru.com
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tex
Mantell
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 1:59 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: putting things in perspective
Don't you just love it "putting things In perspective" . Thank God for the
web site we have to share our experiences. If "putting things in
perspective" is to completely ignore a question related to ones products,
don't seem proper to me. I have two Jabiru engines and a Lightning,and I am
directly responsible for the sale of two airplanes and about 6 engines. I
love the products from Tennessee and am really disappointed by the responses
from Pete. Its quite evident from the others around the world *there is a
problem* and with the help and Ideas gathered here on the web site I am
sure to correct it.
Tex
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tex Mantell" <wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: worn valve guides |
Clive,
I have another 2200 with the problem and its #2523. I plan to find the
guides local if Possible for I have the tools to do it. I hope to
contact someone to find out what spec material should be used if I have
to make them. The bronze material comes in many flavors. Also I will
have to determine the proper size for each valve when I get the heads
off. If I remember right you found that the VW golf had a similar size
guide. How did that work out? Will keep you posted and again thanks for
your reply.
Tex
----- Original Message -----
From: James, Clive R
To: Tex Mantell
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 1:43 AM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
Wow, that=99s a fair number apart from mine. Do you think that
they can have been supplying oversized guides for 270 engines?
What=99s your plan to resolve? Send heads to Pete?
I changed mine without involving Jabiru UK, was in too much of a
hurry, regret it now.
Thanks, Clive
From: Tex Mantell [mailto:wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com]
Sent: 15 March 2012 22:02
To: James, Clive R
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
yes, thats agood idea. Mine is #1206 3300
----- Original Message -----
From: James, Clive R
To: wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:07 PM
Subject: FW: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
Hi Tex, I read you posting about the valve guides. Do you have the
serial number of the engine?
Mine was 1460 and Christian says the Chilean one was 1482. If your
example was close maybe we can indicate and period that folk can look
out for?
Regards, Clive
(Esqual in UK, now with 46 hrs on it!)
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Martin Hone
Sent: 13 March 2012 20:30
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
I reckon that makes it a warranty issue, surely.....
Martin
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Tex Mantell
wrote:
Nick, thanks for the info. Have come to the same conclusion that the
guides were oversize for all the cylinders wore the same. Again thanks
for the info. Tex
----- Original Message ----- From: "xair899" <nickgeh(at)eircom.net>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:59 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: worn valve guides
Tex,
Here in the UK guides were found "worn" at less than 50hrs. Careful
measurement showed they were exactly 7.50mm bore, where the standard
guide should be 7.05mm. Looks suspiciously like human error!
Once the batch passed through the system, that particular problem
went away. Not sure what serial number engines were affected.
The majority of the oil fed to the heads is dumped on the inlet
valve rather than the exhaust which really needs it. Try to persuade it
to go where it would do more good - see Jabiru info on French site
"Contrails" for some ideas.
Nick
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368330#368330
-
ine-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=======================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tex Mantell" <wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: putting things in perspective |
Pete, enough here on the web already, Will talk to you at Sun&fun.
Tex
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Krotje
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:03 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: putting things in perspective
Tex,
Since you posted here as well I'll copy the response I sent to your
lightning-list posting:
Tex,
I gave you the facts as I have seen them over the years. I've sold a
lot of engines and very few valve guides. What do you want - some story
about huge valve guide problems that are not happening? I don't think I
misstated anything in my reply to you. This occurrence is evident in a
few cases around the world but not many when put in context of the
number of engines sold. In the USA when we hear of a valve guide issue
we fix it. If we should find a valve guide that was over size from the
factory we'll fix it at Jabiru's expense but we have not found and
engine yet with factory oversize guides. I do expect that I will find
one sooner or later IF there truly are engines with oversize guides sent
out by Jabiru.
Sorry to disappoint you in my response. I suppose I could have
commiserated with you and told you how awful your situation is but I
would much rather be honest and tell you what we are seeing and have
seen over the last 12 years. If you have a valve guide problem how come
we've not seen your heads here for diagnosis and repair? Do you want
the problem fixed or do you want to just complain about it.
Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
931-680-2800
www.usjabiru.com
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tex
Mantell
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 1:59 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com; lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: putting things in perspective
Don't you just love it "putting things In perspective" . Thank God for
the web site we have to share our experiences. If "putting things in
perspective" is to completely ignore a question related to ones
products, don't seem proper to me. I have two Jabiru engines and a
Lightning,and I am directly responsible for the sale of two airplanes
and about 6 engines. I love the products from Tennessee and am really
disappointed by the responses from Pete. Its quite evident from the
others around the world *there is a problem* and with the help and Ideas
gathered here on the web site I am sure to correct it.
Tex
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listhttp://forums.matroni
cs.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tex Mantell" <wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com> |
For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover
off.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored
area around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to look
further into the situation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermittent shutdown |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Dan:
The cost of the diode is about $0.33, even Radio Shack has them.
What the diode is known as is "An anti-bounce diode".
What it does is:
When the relay is opened a REVERSE voltage (Reverse EMF) is induced into
the relays coil as the magnetic field collapses.
This collapse causes the relay to stay energized for a slightly longer
time. No big deal your A&P may say?!?!
But when the relay coil looses this reverse voltage SLOWLY - The BREAKING
of the contacts also happens SLOWLY which allows an ELECTRICAL ARC to form
on the contact points of the contractor.
After a while, when this happens enough tow things happen:
1 - The contact points get BURNED AWAY and
2 - A CARBON BUILD-UP
This cause the O! S#!+ syndrome; when you can not Power Up or START your
plane.
BOTH the Master & Starter Relay should have this (a) diode... OOoooo The
price just went up! It is now $0.66.
The diode is installed in REVERSE polarity to the relay coil and ground.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 3:34 AM, dwwilt wrote:
>
> I never found the reason for the failure. After checking everything out
> and ohming the system, the plane started fine and the mag check was fine.
> Unnerving to me, because there has to be a reason for the problem. I
> ordered a new switch and replaced it. I opened up the old switch and did
> not find anything unusual. However, with the Jabiru starter solenoid, the
> connections are not similar to those on other starter solenoids I am
> familiar with. I have not found where the surge protection diode was
> installed originally and I believe it was not installed. I did not do this
> part of the wiring on my plane. So, my question is, how do you connect the
> surge protection diode?
>
> --------
> Dennis
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368570#368570
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermittent |
shutdown
| From: | "Dennis W. Wilt" <dwwilt(at)aol.com> |
Barry, thanks much for your explanation. Usually this kind of diode protec
ts against a surge current or a spike that could damage components. The pr
otection here is similar, but different as you explained. I really didn't
think about the circuit too much when I wrote up my question. I am an Elec
trical Engineer, but have not done any circuit analysis or design in many y
ears. Mostly, I do avionics systems work for a company that contracts with
the government. My real question was about the connectors that are a bit
different on the Jabiru starter relay than those I am familiar with. So, I
am going to do what I expected and remove the circular connector that is o
n the diode and connect the diode and the ignition switch to the starter re
lay using a single slide on connector for the plus side of the diode and co
nnect the negative side of the diode as delivered since that side used a cu
rcular connector.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 16, 2012 9:34 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermitte
nt shutdown
Dan:
The cost of the diode is about $0.33, even Radio Shack has them.
What the diode is known as is "An anti-bounce diode".
What it does is:
When the relay is opened a REVERSE voltage (Reverse EMF) is induced into th
e relays coil as the magnetic field collapses.
This collapse causes the relay to stay energized for a slightly longer time
. No big deal your A&P may say?!?!
But when the relay coil looses this reverse voltage SLOWLY - The BREAKING o
f the contacts also happens SLOWLY which allows an ELECTRICAL ARC to form o
n the contact points of the contractor.
After a while, when this happens enough tow things happen:
1 - The contact points get BURNED AWAY and
2 - A CARBON BUILD-UP
This cause the O! S#!+ syndrome; when you can not Power Up or START your pl
ane.
BOTH the Master & Starter Relay should have this (a) diode... OOoooo The pr
ice just went up! It is now $0.66.
The diode is installed in REVERSE polarity to the relay coil and ground.
Barry
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 3:34 AM, dwwilt wrote:
I never found the reason for the failure. After checking everything out an
d ohming the system, the plane started fine and the mag check was fine. Un
nerving to me, because there has to be a reason for the problem. I ordered
a new switch and replaced it. I opened up the old switch and did not find
anything unusual. However, with the Jabiru starter solenoid, the connecti
ons are not similar to those on other starter solenoids I am familiar with.
I have not found where the surge protection diode was installed originall
y and I believe it was not installed. I did not do this part of the wiring
on my plane. So, my question is, how do you connect the surge protection
diode?
--------
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368570#368570
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
st
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution and
a high trust in USA Jabiru.
A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be replaced.
A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO tight!!!
However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed the presence
of a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the valves to
gunk up and stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then reassembled.
Other than a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves, nothing was
done. It is running fine today as far as I know.
The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can come
from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from overheating
cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not excluding a
problem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number of hours on
the engine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple occasions, CHT's and
EGT's over time and other considerations. Frankly, if the compression
is up, particularly a differential compression check, I would not do
anything unless Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the
solution I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve guide
in
a O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just happen. Better
to replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if the guide is
indeed out of spec.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:51:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com writes:
For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover
off.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored area
around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to look further into the
situation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Guys - please take note:
In this age of instant communications it amazes me how information isolated
aviation people have become. I frequent different aviation online groups
and all have reported this SAME type of valve problem. It is nothing new.
What does amaze me it how technical engine manufactures can get. "Pete K
and the folks in Tennessee revealed the presence of a gunky contaminate."
That GUNK is known as coke, not the type that you drink but what happens
when you expose oil to high heat. This coke is a carbon base substance.
The coke attaches itself to the valve stem and guide; the coke is harder
than the steel of the valve or the valve guide and causes ware. This coke
hardens - And, the valve stem and valve guide ware allowing more oil leaks
into the space between the valve and guide. In engine design the valve is
harder than the guide so the guide wares more. As the coke builds up it
causes the valve to stick. History has shown when this happens the valve
sticks OPEN, in the DOWN position. Since the valve is DOWN it is met by
the UP coming piston. You can just imagine all the fun and sounds that
happen in a split second. What I do not know is: Dose the Jabiru have
an INTERFERENCE fit between the piston and valve? If not than all that may
happen is a loss of power; otherwise it's flying parts and vibration - If
you are lucky. This problem is more prevalent with engines that burn AvGas
but it does happen with MoGas also.
How do you prevent it? The jury is still out on that verdict. But, there
is a test that can be performed that gives one a better than average idea
on when it is happening. Go to the Lycoming web site and down load Service
Bulliten SB388C. It explains the required equipment and how to perform
what is know as "The Valve Wobble Test". Remember: The equipment will have
to be modified and the specs (Go-No Go) limits will have to be developed to
address the Jabiru Engine.
My thought on prevention is: COOL the valves and guides as much as you can.
Prevent the HEAT from burning the oil. If the oil does not burn coke will
not develop.
Side Note: Engine manufactures - If cooling does work you will have to
re-calculate the clearance between the valve stem and guide considering
the maleficent of expansion of the materials. Less heat means less
expansion unless you go with a NPO material.
Barry
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:42 PM, wrote:
> **
> For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution
> and a high trust in USA Jabiru.
>
> A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
> valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be
> replaced. A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO
> tight!!! However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed
> the presence of a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the
> valves to gunk up and stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then
> reassembled. Other than a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves,
> nothing was done. It is running fine today as far as I know.
>
> The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can come
> from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from overheating
> cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not excluding a
> problem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number of hours on
> the engine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple occasions, CHT's
> and EGT's over time and other considerations. Frankly, if the
> compression is up, particularly a differential compression check, I would
> not do anything unless Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
>
> While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the
> solution I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve
> guide in a O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just
> happen. Better to replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if
> the guide is indeed out of spec.
>
>
> Doug Koenigsberg
>
> In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:51:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com writes:
>
> For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover
> off.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored area
> around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to look further into
> the situation.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
| From: | Gary Aman <zeprep251(at)aol.com> |
Just as an aside,
I believe the benefits of leaded fuel extend far beyond it's anti knock qua
lities.The cushioning and lubricating features make it worth the difference
in price as well as the fact that it stores without degradation.Any room f
or this thought in the valve guide discussion?Just my opinion.No offense me
ant.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A approx.680 trouble free hrs so far all on 100LL
-----Original Message-----
From: Kayberg <Kayberg(at)aol.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 16, 2012 1:43 pm
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution and
a high trust in USA Jabiru.
A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with valv
es sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be replaced.
A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO tight!!! Howev
er, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed the presence of
a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the valves to gunk
up and stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then reassembled. O
ther than a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves, nothing was don
e. It is running fine today as far as I know.
The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can come
from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from overheating
cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not excluding a prob
lem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number of hours on the
engine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple occasions, CHT's and
EGT's over time and other considerations. Frankly, if the compression is
up, particularly a differential compression check, I would not do anything
unless Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the solutio
n I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve guide in a
O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just happen. Better t
o replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if the guide is inde
ed out of spec.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:51:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wb2ssj@roc
hester.rr.com writes:
For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover o
ff.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored area
around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to look further int
o the situation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tex Mantell" <wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Thank you for your coments , but we already know the whats the problem.
Tex
----- Original Message -----
From: Kayberg(at)aol.com
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of
caution and a high trust in USA Jabiru.
A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be
replaced. A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO
tight!!! However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee
revealed the presence of a gunky contaminate. It was that material
that caused the valves to gunk up and stick. The engine was torn down
and checked, then reassembled. Other than a clean up, touch up of the
seats and new valves, nothing was done. It is running fine today as far
as I know.
The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can
come from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from
overheating cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not
excluding a problem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the
number of hours on the engine, the compression numbers obtained on
multiple occasions, CHT's and EGT's over time and other considerations.
Frankly, if the compression is up, particularly a differential
compression check, I would not do anything unless Pete, et al, said it
was an indicator.
While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the
solution I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve
guide in a O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just
happen. Better to replace with the correct part and simply move
on.....if the guide is indeed out of spec.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:51:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com writes:
For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the
cover off.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the
discolored area around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to
look further into the situation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good Afternoon G.Aman,
I do like the stability aspects of 100LL, but I think any thoughts as to
the cushioning and lubrication qualities of leaded fuel are pure
unadulterated Old Wives' Tales.
The FAA ran a set of engines on an Aero Commander many years ago with one
engine being fed only leaded fuel and the other fed only unleaded fuel. The
one using unleaded fuel ran better, ran cleaner, and lasted easily through
TBO.
Lead is strictly a relatively low cost octane enhancer. If you do not need
the octane, don't use leaded fuel!
Too bad we do not have a source of unleaded aviation fuel. 80 octane would
be more than enough for most small engines. Without lead, the 100 LL mix is
good for 96 or 97 octane.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
In a message dated 3/16/2012 3:14:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
zeprep251(at)aol.com writes:
Just as an aside,
I believe the benefits of leaded fuel extend far beyond it's anti knock
qualities.The cushioning and lubricating features make it worth the
difference in price as well as the fact that it stores without degradation.Any
room
for this thought in the valve guide discussion?Just my opinion.No offense
meant.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A approx.680 trouble free hrs so far all on 100LL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wagner <aeroeletrico(at)yahoo.com.br> |
| Subject: | Talk About Valves |
Hy, reading about some major problems with valves, here some photos of a
boroscope exhaust valves inspection on my 180hs Jab 3300A HL.
Waiting comments....
Best regards from Brazil
Wagner
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Barry, it wasn't coke. It wasn't carbon based. It was a yellowish
material that we believe was present in the mogas with ethanol. It showed up
in
less than 3 hours of running, hardly enough to cause significant carbon
deposits.
Doug
In a message dated 3/16/2012 3:27:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
flyadive(at)gmail.com writes:
Guys - please take note:
In this age of instant communications it amazes me how information
isolated aviation people have become. I frequent different aviation online groups
and all have reported this SAME type of valve problem. It is nothing new.
What does amaze me it how technical engine manufactures can get. "Pete K
and the folks in Tennessee revealed the presence of a gunky contaminate."
That GUNK is known as coke, not the type that you drink but what happens
when you expose oil to high heat. This coke is a carbon base substance. The
coke attaches itself to the valve stem and guide; the coke is harder than
the steel of the valve or the valve guide and causes ware. This coke
hardens - And, the valve stem and valve guide ware allowing more oil leaks into
the space between the valve and guide. In engine design the valve is harder
than the guide so the guide wares more. As the coke builds up it causes
the valve to stick. History has shown when this happens the valve sticks
OPEN, in the DOWN position. Since the valve is DOWN it is met by the UP
coming piston. You can just imagine all the fun and sounds that happen in a
split second. What I do not know is: Dose the Jabiru have an INTERFERENCE
fit between the piston and valve? If not than all that may happen is a loss
of power; otherwise it's flying parts and vibration - If you are lucky.
This problem is more prevalent with engines that burn AvGas but it does
happen with MoGas also.
How do you prevent it? The jury is still out on that verdict. But, there
is a test that can be performed that gives one a better than average idea
on when it is happening. Go to the Lycoming web site and down load Service
Bulliten SB388C. It explains the required equipment and how to perform
what is know as "The Valve Wobble Test". Remember: The equipment will have to
be modified and the specs (Go-No Go) limits will have to be developed to
address the Jabiru Engine.
My thought on prevention is: COOL the valves and guides as much as you
can. Prevent the HEAT from burning the oil. If the oil does not burn coke
will not develop.
Side Note: Engine manufactures - If cooling does work you will have to
re-calculate the clearance between the valve stem and guide considering the
maleficent of expansion of the materials. Less heat means less expansion
unless you go with a NPO material.
Barry
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:42 PM, <_Kayberg(at)aol.com_
(mailto:Kayberg(at)aol.com) > wrote:
For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution
and a high trust in USA Jabiru.
A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be replaced.
A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO tight!!!
However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed the presence
of a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the valves to
gunk up and stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then reassembled.
Other than a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves, nothing was
done. It is running fine today as far as I know.
The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can come
from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from overheating
cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not excluding a
problem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number of hours on
the engine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple occasions, CHT's and
EGT's over time and other considerations. Frankly, if the compression
is up, particularly a differential compression check, I would not do
anything unless Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the
solution I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve guide
in
a O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just happen. Better
to replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if the guide
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Naftali Horowitz <naftalih(at)hotmail.com> |
Obviously overheated
From: wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Date: Fri=2C 16 Mar 2012 06:45:42 -0400
For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover off
.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored area aro
und the exhaust valve on the right=2Cyou might want to look further into th
e situation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gary:
You have been corrupted! Brainwashed or what ever term you want to apply...
That is such a Old Wive's Tail that the old lady's mole is growing a beard.
The EPA took that malarkey and used it against the aviation industry.
Here is how it started: We as pilots use the term LEADED FUEL. The EPA
forced feed the public those words LEAD. And everyone knows you should not
Eat or Breathe LEAD.
AND when we clean our spark plugs we remove a solid particle that WE call
LEAD!
So, using that totally incorrect logic AND force feeding to the public, it
only goes to say: Engines are NOT 100% efficient so considering that it
only goes to prove that some of that lead is being exhausted and pumped
into the air! Also, since lead is a soft material and the exhaust valve is
open during intake some of the raw fuel is being pumped past the valve as
it closes. It MUST be CUSHIONING the valve! Ergo the
Oral Deification and development of the Old Wife's Tail.
RULE: If a lie is told long enough and loud enough it becomes the truth.
Barry
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Gary Aman wrote:
> Just as an aside,
> I believe the benefits of leaded fuel extend far beyond it's anti knock
> qualities.The cushioning and lubricating features make it worth the
> difference in price as well as the fact that it stores without
> degradation.Any room for this thought in the valve guide discussion?Just my
> opinion.No offense meant.
> G.Aman Jabiru 2200A approx.680 trouble free hrs so far all on 100LL
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kayberg <Kayberg(at)aol.com>
> To: jabiruengine-list
> Sent: Fri, Mar 16, 2012 1:43 pm
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
>
> For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution
> and a high trust in USA Jabiru.
>
> A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
> valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be
> replaced. A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO
> tight!!! However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed
> the presence of a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the
> valves to gunk up and stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then
> reassembled. Other than a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves,
> nothing was done. It is running fine today as far as I know.
>
> The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can come
> from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from overheating
> cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not excluding a
> problem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number of hours on
> the engine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple occasions, CHT's
> and EGT's over time and other considerations. Frankly, if the
> compression is up, particularly a differential compression check, I would
> not do anything unless Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
>
> While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the
> solution I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve
> guide in a O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just
> happen. Better to replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if
> the guide is indeed out of spec.
>
>
> Doug Koenigsberg
>
> In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:51:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com writes:
>
> For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover
> off.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored area
> around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to look further into
> the situation.
>
> *
>
> tor?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Talk About Valves |
| From: | Martin Hone <aerobiz1(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Wagner,
What sort of fuel are you burning ?
Cheers
Martin
On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Wagner wrote:
> Hy, reading about some major problems with valves, here some photos of a
> boroscope exhaust valves inspection on my 180hs Jab 3300A HL.
>
> Waiting comments....
>
> Best regards from Brazil
>
> Wagner
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
This was not coke but some foreign substance from the fuel
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Guys - please take note:
In this age of instant communications it amazes me how information isolated
aviation people have become. I frequent different aviation online groups
and all have reported this SAME type of valve problem. It is nothing new.
What does amaze me it how technical engine manufactures can get. "Pete K
and the folks in Tennessee revealed the presence of a gunky contaminate."
That GUNK is known as coke, not the type that you drink but what happens
when you expose oil to high heat. This coke is a carbon base substance.
The coke attaches itself to the valve stem and guide; the coke is harder
than the steel of the valve or the valve guide and causes ware. This coke
hardens - And, the valve stem and valve guide ware allowing more oil leaks
into the space between the valve and guide. In engine design the valve is
harder than the guide so the guide wares more. As the coke builds up it
causes the valve to stick. History has shown when this happens the valve
sticks OPEN, in the DOWN position. Since the valve is DOWN it is met by the
UP coming piston. You can just imagine all the fun and sounds that happen
in a split second. What I do not know is: Dose the Jabiru have an
INTERFERENCE fit between the piston and valve? If not than all that may
happen is a loss of power; otherwise it's flying parts and vibration - If
you are lucky. This problem is more prevalent with engines that burn AvGas
but it does happen with MoGas also.
How do you prevent it? The jury is still out on that verdict. But, there
is a test that can be performed that gives one a better than average idea on
when it is happening. Go to the Lycoming web site and down load Service
Bulliten SB388C. It explains the required equipment and how to perform what
is know as "The Valve Wobble Test". Remember: The equipment will have to be
modified and the specs (Go-No Go) limits will have to be developed to
address the Jabiru Engine.
My thought on prevention is: COOL the valves and guides as much as you can.
Prevent the HEAT from burning the oil. If the oil does not burn coke will
not develop.
Side Note: Engine manufactures - If cooling does work you will have to
re-calculate the clearance between the valve stem and guide considering the
maleficent of expansion of the materials. Less heat means less expansion
unless you go with a NPO material.
Barry
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:42 PM, wrote:
For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution and
a high trust in USA Jabiru.
A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be replaced.
A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO tight!!!
However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed the
presence of a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the
valves to gunk up and stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then
reassembled. Other than a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves,
nothing was done. It is running fine today as far as I know.
The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can come
from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from overheating
cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not excluding a
problem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number of hours on
the engine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple occasions, CHT's
and EGT's over time and other considerations. Frankly, if the compression
is up, particularly a differential compression check, I would not do
anything unless Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the solution
I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve guide in a
O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just happen. Better to
replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if the guide is indeed
out of spec.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:51:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com writes:
For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover
off.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored area
around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to look further into
the situation.
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Bzzzzt... Wrong..
On 3/16/2012 10:36 PM, Naftali Horowitz wrote:
> Obviously overheated
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com
> To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com; jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 06:45:42 -0400
>
> For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the
> cover off.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the
> discolored area around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want
> to look further into the situation.
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Talk About Valves |
| From: | Wagner <aeroeletrico(at)yahoo.com.br> |
Avgas 100ll
Wagner.
Em 16/03/2012, =C3-s 19:48, Martin Hone escreveu:
> Hi Wagner,
>
> What sort of fuel are you burning ?
>
> Cheers
>
> Martin
>
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Wagner wrote:
> Hy, reading about some major problems with valves, here some photos of a b
oroscope exhaust valves inspection on my 180hs Jab 3300A HL.
>
> Waiting comments....
>
> Best regards from Brazil
>
> Wagner
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Talk About Valves |
| From: | Martin Hone <aerobiz1(at)gmail.com> |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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nick Otterback <vettin74(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
The engine the kayberg is talking about was not burned oil or fuel deposit. t
his "gunk" or "coke" as you call it was not found in the rocker box on this p
articular engine. It had gummed up the mechanical fuel pump, carb, intake pl
enum and tubes, and the intake valves only at the portion which is exposed t
o the incoming mix. This was not a oil burn or lead deposit. It had formed f
rom a fuel contaminate and easily disolved with parts wash and solvent. It w
as tanish in color and clear like a varnsih.
I would belive everything else but it was not oil or lead, it had contaminat
ed and built up on everything from the fuel tanks in. I know because i rebui
lt that engine.
Nick
Sent from my pocket
On Mar 16, 2012, at 2:26 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Guys - please take note:
>
> In this age of instant communications it amazes me how information isolate
d aviation people have become. I frequent different aviation online groups a
nd all have reported this SAME type of valve problem. It is nothing new. Wh
at does amaze me it how technical engine manufactures can get. "Pete K and t
he folks in Tennessee revealed the presence of a gunky contaminate." That G
UNK is known as coke, not the type that you drink but what happens when you e
xpose oil to high heat. This coke is a carbon base substance. The coke att
aches itself to the valve stem and guide; the coke is harder than the steel o
f the valve or the valve guide and causes ware. This coke hardens - And, th
e valve stem and valve guide ware allowing more oil leaks into the space bet
ween the valve and guide. In engine design the valve is harder than the gui
de so the guide wares more. As the coke builds up it causes the valve to st
ick. History has shown when this happens the valve sticks OPEN, in the DOWN
position. Since the valve is DOWN it is met by the UP coming piston. You c
an just imagine all the fun and sounds that happen in a split second. What I
do not know is: Dose the Jabiru have an INTERFERENCE fit between the pisto
n and valve? If not than all that may happen is a loss of power; otherwise i
t's flying parts and vibration - If you are lucky. This problem is more pre
valent with engines that burn AvGas but it does happen with MoGas also.
>
> How do you prevent it? The jury is still out on that verdict. But, there
is a test that can be performed that gives one a better than average idea o
n when it is happening. Go to the Lycoming web site and down load Service B
ulliten SB388C. It explains the required equipment and how to perform what i
s know as "The Valve Wobble Test". Remember: The equipment will have to be m
odified and the specs (Go-No Go) limits will have to be developed to address
the Jabiru Engine.
>
> My thought on prevention is: COOL the valves and guides as much as you can
. Prevent the HEAT from burning the oil. If the oil does not burn coke will
not develop.
> Side Note: Engine manufactures - If cooling does work you will have to re
-calculate the clearance between the valve stem and guide considering the ma
leficent of expansion of the materials. Less heat means less expansion unle
ss you go with a NPO material.
>
> Barry
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:42 PM, wrote:
> For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution an
d a high trust in USA Jabiru.
>
> A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with val
ves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be replaced. A
casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO tight!!! However
, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed the presence of a g
unky contaminate. It was that material that caused the valves to gunk up a
nd stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then reassembled. Other t
han a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves, nothing was done. It i
s running fine today as far as I know.
>
> The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can come
from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from overheating c
ooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not excluding a proble
m with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number of hours on the en
gine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple occasions, CHT's and EGT'
s over time and other considerations. Frankly, if the compression is up, p
articularly a differential compression check, I would not do anything unless
Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
>
> While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the soluti
on I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve guide in a
O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just happen. Better to
replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if the guide is indeed
out of spec.
>
>
> Doug Koenigsberg
>
> In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:51:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wb2ssj@ro
chester.rr.com writes:
> For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover of
f.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored area aro
und the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to look further into the s
ituation.
>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Lis
t
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Could the substance be epoxy or a tank sealer? I know many epoxies will
dissolve in ethanol laced fuel and some will dissolve in regular fuel. I have
seen fuel systems clogged with dissolved epoxy, a brownest color. It is
nasty stuff.
Greg
Jabiru 2200
In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:36:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
vettin74(at)yahoo.com writes:
The engine the kayberg is talking about was not burned oil or fuel
deposit. this "gunk" or "coke" as you call it was not found in the rocker box
on
this particular engine. It had gummed up the mechanical fuel pump, carb,
intake plenum and tubes, and the intake valves only at the portion which is
exposed to the incoming mix. This was not a oil burn or lead deposit. It had
formed from a fuel contaminate and easily disolved with parts wash and
solvent. It was tanish in color and clear like a varnsih.
I would belive everything else but it was not oil or lead, it had
contaminated and built up on everything from the fuel tanks in. I know because
i
rebuilt that engine.
Nick
Sent from my pocket
On Mar 16, 2012, at 2:26 PM, FLYaDIVE <_flyadive(at)gmail.com_
(mailto:flyadive(at)gmail.com) > wrote:
Guys - please take note:
In this age of instant communications it amazes me how information
isolated aviation people have become. I frequent different aviation online groups
and all have reported this SAME type of valve problem. It is nothing new.
What does amaze me it how technical engine manufactures can get. "Pete K
and the folks in Tennessee revealed the presence of a gunky contaminate."
That GUNK is known as coke, not the type that you drink but what happens
when you expose oil to high heat. This coke is a carbon base substance. The
coke attaches itself to the valve stem and guide; the coke is harder than
the steel of the valve or the valve guide and causes ware. This coke
hardens - And, the valve stem and valve guide ware allowing more oil leaks into
the space between the valve and guide. In engine design the valve is
harder than the guide so the guide wares more. As the coke builds up it causes
the valve to stick. History has shown when this happens the valve sticks
OPEN, in the DOWN position. Since the valve is DOWN it is met by the UP
coming piston. You can just imagine all the fun and sounds that happen in a
split second. What I do not know is: Dose the Jabiru have an INTERFERENCE
fit between the piston and valve? If not than all that may happen is a loss
of power; otherwise it's flying parts and vibration - If you are lucky.
This problem is more prevalent with engines that burn AvGas but it does
happen with MoGas also.
How do you prevent it? The jury is still out on that verdict. But, there
is a test that can be performed that gives one a better than average idea
on when it is happening. Go to the Lycoming web site and down load Service
Bulliten SB388C. It explains the required equipment and how to perform
what is know as "The Valve Wobble Test". Remember: The equipment will have
to be modified and the specs (Go-No Go) limits will have to be developed to
address the Jabiru Engine.
My thought on prevention is: COOL the valves and guides as much as you
can. Prevent the HEAT from burning the oil. If the oil does not burn coke
will not develop.
Side Note: Engine manufactures - If cooling does work you will have to
re-calculate the clearance between the valve stem and guide considering the
maleficent of expansion of the materials. Less heat means less expansion
unless you go with a NPO material.
Barry
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:42 PM, <_Kayberg(at)aol.com_
(mailto:Kayberg(at)aol.com) > wrote:
For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution
and a high trust in USA Jabiru.
A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be replaced.
A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO tight!!!
However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed the presence
of a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the valves to
gunk up and stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then reassembled.
Other than a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves, nothing was
done. It is running fine today as far as I know.
The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can come
from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from overheating
cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not excluding a
problem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number of hours on
the engine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple occasions, CHT's and
EGT's over time and other considerations. Frankly, if the compression
is up, particularly a differential compression check, I would not do
anything unless Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the
solution I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve guide
in
a O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just happen. Better
to replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if the guide is
indeed out of spec.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 3/16/2012 6:51:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com_ (mailto:wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com) writes:
For those interested here is a picture of the rocker box with the cover
off.(as if you are doing a head bolt check) If you see the discolored area
around the exhaust valve on the right,you might want to look further into the
situation.
ist"
target="_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Doug:
Is this your post?
"A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be
replaced. A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO
tight!!! However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed
the presence of a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the
valves to gunk up and stick. "
It was posted by: Kayberg(at)aol.com
via<http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182>
matronics.com
And you can see the term "gunky" was used... Gunky is not a solid or a
powder.
That is what I am responding to.
================================
I did not see the first set of pictures.
Isn't this engine out of country?
Yellow - Is a classic case of SULFUR. So one must ask: Are these
fuels controlled enough to keep the sulfur content equal to or lower of
what we have here is the USA?
Question: Are these Sulfur filled valves?
We are only working from pictures so there is a lot the eye can see that
the pictures may not show.
Are the valves the ONLY place where the yellow is showing up?
If so the next question would be: How hot is the engine/valves running?
Hot valves could be causing detonation and it could be only in
the vicinity of the valve. You can cross check this with the burn pattern
on the top of the pistons. You want to see a very distinked swearl pattern.
Can you add any additional pertinent information?
Barry
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:26 PM, wrote:
> **
> Barry, it wasn't coke. It wasn't carbon based. It was a yellowish
> material that we believe was present in the mogas with ethanol. It showed
> up in less than 3 hours of running, hardly enough to cause significant
> carbon deposits.
>
> Doug
>
> In a message dated 3/16/2012 3:27:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> flyadive(at)gmail.com writes:
>
> Guys - please take note:
>
> In this age of instant communications it amazes me how information
> isolated aviation people have become. I frequent different aviation online
> groups and all have reported this SAME type of valve problem. It is nothing
> new. What does amaze me it how technical engine manufactures can get. "Pete
> K and the folks in Tennessee revealed the presence of a gunky contaminate."
> That GUNK is known as coke, not the type that you drink but what happens
> when you expose oil to high heat. This coke is a carbon base substance.
> The coke attaches itself to the valve stem and guide; the coke is harder
> than the steel of the valve or the valve guide and causes ware. This coke
> hardens - And, the valve stem and valve guide ware allowing more oil leaks
> into the space between the valve and guide. In engine design the valve is
> harder than the guide so the guide wares more. As the coke builds up it
> causes the valve to stick. History has shown when this happens the valve
> sticks OPEN, in the DOWN position. Since the valve is DOWN it is met by
> the UP coming piston. You can just imagine all the fun and sounds that
> happen in a split second. What I do not know is: Dose the Jabiru have
> an INTERFERENCE fit between the piston and valve? If not than all that may
> happen is a loss of power; otherwise it's flying parts and vibration - If
> you are lucky. This problem is more prevalent with engines that burn
> AvGas but it does happen with MoGas also.
>
> How do you prevent it? The jury is still out on that verdict. But, there
> is a test that can be performed that gives one a better than average idea
> on when it is happening. Go to the Lycoming web site and down load Service
> Bulliten SB388C. It explains the required equipment and how to perform
> what is know as "The Valve Wobble Test". Remember: The equipment will have
> to be modified and the specs (Go-No Go) limits will have to be developed to
> address the Jabiru Engine.
>
> My thought on prevention is: COOL the valves and guides as much as you
> can. Prevent the HEAT from burning the oil. If the oil does not burn coke
> will not develop.
> Side Note: Engine manufactures - If cooling does work you will have to
> re-calculate the clearance between the valve stem and guide considering
> the maleficent of expansion of the materials. Less heat means less
> expansion unless you go with a NPO material.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:42 PM, wrote:
>
>> **
>> For the folks following this thread, I would urge some level of caution
>> and a high trust in USA Jabiru.
>>
>> A couple years back we had a new Jab 3300 that had a real problem with
>> valves sticking. Ultimately the valves bent and several had to be
>> replaced. A casual notion would be that the valve guides were TOOOOO
>> tight!!! However, inspection by Pete K and the folks in Tennesee revealed
>> the presence of a gunky contaminate. It was that material that caused the
>> valves to gunk up and stick. The engine was torn down and checked, then
>> reassembled. Other than a clean up, touch up of the seats and new valves,
>> nothing was done. It is running fine today as far as I know.
>>
>> The heads in Tex's picture could have a bent exhaust valve (which can
>> come from overheating), from dirt or problems with the seat, from
>> overheating cooking the oil in that spot, or perhaps other causes, not
>> excluding a problem with fuel contamination. We are not told of the number
>> of hours on the engine, the compression numbers obtained on multiple
>> occasions, CHT's and EGT's over time and other considerations. Frankly,
>> if the compression is up, particularly a differential compression check, I
>> would not do anything unless Pete, et al, said it was an indicator.
>>
>> While Tex wants to make his own valve guides, that would not be the
>> solution I would pursue first. Having just discovered a cracked valve
>> guide in a O-320 Lycoming, I tend to believe that some things just
>> happen. Better to replace with the correct part and simply move on.....if
>> the guide
>>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 3300 First Run Oil Question |
| From: | "AZFlyer" <millrML(at)aol.com> |
According to the instructions provided by Jabiru on "First Start Procedure" the
first item on their list is:
1. Fill oil cooler
2. Add 3.5 qt oil to the sump
How am I suppose to fill the oil cooler? How much oil does it hold? Doesn't the
oil go into oil cooler from the same filler as engine oil?
After putting in 3.5 qts and a little more...I still don't get oil on the stick.
Did remove spark plug from each cycl. and did turn over engine with starter per
instructions...but still can't get reading on oil stick... what am I doing wrong?
Thanks,
M
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368771#368771
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
| From: | Gary Aman <zeprep251(at)aol.com> |
Bob,
The issue of valve seat recession with early on unleaded fuel comes to mind
, but you may never have had to deal with that in your frame of experience.
That was addressed with additives as well as other additives for other issu
es like alcohol separation,one of the reasons motor fuel smells so nice and
does such a good job of removing sloshing compound from older aircraft fue
l tanks.I could run the 87octane in the D35 with the E series engine, but a
fter a while the fuel selector got too stiff to turn.A dose of 100LL freed
it up quickly,so I figured it lubed it some as well,just had to run some 10
0 now and then.But you could be right and I don't mind.You will probably ge
t your wish for unleaded 100 sooner than you might think.It's high on the E
PA's list. Thanks,always enjoy your input,Gary Aman Mk3c Jabiru 2200a
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 16, 2012 5:01 pm
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Afternoon G.Aman,
I do like the stability aspects of 100LL, but I think any thoughts as to th
e cushioning and lubrication qualities of leaded fuel are pure unadulterate
d Old Wives' Tales.
The FAA ran a set of engines on an Aero Commander many years ago with one e
ngine being fed only leaded fuel and the other fed only unleaded fuel. The
one using unleaded fuel ran better, ran cleaner, and lasted easily through
TBO.
Lead is strictly a relatively low cost octane enhancer. If you do not need
the octane, don't use leaded fuel!
Too bad we do not have a source of unleaded aviation fuel. 80 octane would
be more than enough for most small engines. Without lead, the 100 LL mix is
good for 96 or 97 octane.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
In a message dated 3/16/2012 3:14:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, zeprep251@
aol.com writes:
Just as an aside,
I believe the benefits of leaded fuel extend far beyond it's anti knock q
ualities.The cushioning and lubricating features make it worth the differ
ence in price as well as the fact that it stores without degradation.Any
room for this thought in the valve guide discussion?Just my opinion.No offe
nse meant.
G.Aman Jabiru 2200A approx.680 trouble free hrs so far all on 100LL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good Afternoon Gary,
Just parroting what I have been taught by George Braly, Tim Roehl and many
others who have seriously studied the issue.
The folks who promote lead for cushioning and lubrication seem to be those
same folks who claim that lean side operations are hard on our engines. As
George is fond of saying: "It is not how hard we run our engines it is how
we run our engines hard!"
First heard such things back when I had a sail boat with an auxiliary
engine (Atomic Four) of which the hand book said should only be fed "white"
gas. About that same time there was an article in Sail Magazine purportedly
written by the retired Ethyl engineer who had developed Tetra Ethyl Lead for
octane enhancement. He mentioned that the lead had no real good properties
at all other than as an Octane enhancer. It was, in fact, poisonous and
bad stuff to handle. He wrote that when the PR people were trying to sell the
public on using the Ethyl compound, they invented the idea that it may help
lubrication and may cushion the valves.
The engineers that worked for the Ethyl corporation stated that there was
NO basis for making that claim, but the brass went with the PR folks and we
are still suffering from that false premise.
I do hope we get rid of lead. I also feel it is imperative that we get a
100 octane fuel by whatever means it can be done without using lead.
I agree with those who say the amount of lead we use is not a health
problem, but the lead is not good for our engines either!
I hope George gets his no lead fuel (100UL he calls it) approved and I hope
Swift fuel is also successful. Meanwhile, I want the lowest quantity of
lead in my fuel that can do the job.
Sure would make the plugs last longer!
I figure the higher end solvents loosened up your fuel valve, but that is
strictly a WAG!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
TN IO-550-B that needs that fancy fuel!
W670 that doesn't care at all.
Downers Grove, Illinois
In a message dated 3/17/2012 2:26:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
zeprep251(at)aol.com writes:
Bob,
The issue of valve seat recession with early on unleaded fuel comes to
mind, but you may never have had to deal with that in your frame of
experience.That was addressed with additives as well as other additives for other
issues like alcohol separation,one of the reasons motor fuel smells so nice
and does such a good job of removing sloshing compound from older aircraft
fuel tanks.I could run the 87octane in the D35 with the E series engine, but
after a while the fuel selector got too stiff to turn.A dose of 100LL freed
it up quickly,so I figured it lubed it some as well,just had to run some
100 now and then.But you could be right and I don't mind.You will probably
get your wish for unleaded 100 sooner than you might think.It's high on the
EPA's list. Thanks,always enjoy your input,Gary Aman Mk3c Jabiru 2200a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good morning Bob-
I haven't spoken with you for a while now...good to hear from you
As to the "cushioning" effect of the lead in leaded gasoline, I offer
the following two anecdotes that I had first-hand knowledge of:
First, I used to work at the Chrysler Proving Grounds as a driver/
mechanic. When the talk of unleaded fuels first appeared, we had a
big-block engine...either a 383 or 413 cu. inch...that we were going
to use as a test vehicle for this fuel. In short order...I don't
recall how long....the engine began to run roughly, and it was
revealed that the valve seats were being "pounded" into the heads.
(The hydraulic valve adjusters compensated for the change in valve
geometry until they ran out of compensation) A few days later a new
set of heads arrived, and they had been "induction hardened"
according to one of the engineers involved in the project. I could
see an area of blue around the valve seats....my memory has faded
enough that I don't recall if all the valve seats were done or only
the exhausts, but it seems like it was only the exhausts.
Cut to about 20 years later (as I recall) and I was living in
California and driving a 1973 Datsun Z, and when California stopped
selling leaded fuel, and I was forced to use it in my Z, the engine
began to run a bit roughly, and I found some valves that were too
tight in their adjustments for clearance. I adjusted accordingly, and
a few weeks later, had to adjust again. And on and on, until I ran
out of adjustment on the rocker arms. Because I needed to keep the Z
running for transportation to work, I got another head from a scrap
yard and dropped it off at the auto machine shop for a valve job and
the installation of hardened seats. To my surprise, the techie called
me and said that this head already had hardened seats installed. That
head is still on my Z and is still running.
So whatever the reason, the leaded fuel did not harm my engine as it
relates to valve operation, but that unleaded stuff sure did a number
on it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1236 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Mar 17, 2012, at 4:15 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Afternoon Gary,
>
> Just parroting what I have been taught by George Braly, Tim Roehl
> and many others who have seriously studied the issue.
>
> The folks who promote lead for cushioning and lubrication seem to
> be those same folks who claim that lean side operations are hard on
> our engines. As George is fond of saying: "It is not how hard we
> run our engines it is how we run our engines hard!"
>
> First heard such things back when I had a sail boat with an
> auxiliary engine (Atomic Four) of which the hand book said should
> only be fed "white" gas. About that same time there was an article
> in Sail Magazine purportedly written by the retired Ethyl engineer
> who had developed Tetra Ethyl Lead for octane enhancement. He
> mentioned that the lead had no real good properties at all other
> than as an Octane enhancer. It was, in fact, poisonous and bad
> stuff to handle. He wrote that when the PR people were trying to
> sell the public on using the Ethyl compound, they invented the idea
> that it may help lubrication and may cushion the valves.
>
> The engineers that worked for the Ethyl corporation stated that
> there was NO basis for making that claim, but the brass went with
> the PR folks and we are still suffering from that false premise.
>
> I do hope we get rid of lead. I also feel it is imperative that we
> get a 100 octane fuel by whatever means it can be done without
> using lead.
>
> I agree with those who say the amount of lead we use is not a
> health problem, but the lead is not good for our engines either!
>
> I hope George gets his no lead fuel (100UL he calls it) approved
> and I hope Swift fuel is also successful. Meanwhile, I want the
> lowest quantity of lead in my fuel that can do the job.
>
> Sure would make the plugs last longer!
>
> I figure the higher end solvents loosened up your fuel valve, but
> that is strictly a WAG!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> TN IO-550-B that needs that fancy fuel!
> W670 that doesn't care at all.
> Downers Grove, Illinois
>
> In a message dated 3/17/2012 2:26:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> zeprep251(at)aol.com writes:
> Bob,
> The issue of valve seat recession with early on unleaded fuel comes
> to mind, but you may never have had to deal with that in your frame
> of experience.That was addressed with additives as well as other
> additives for other issues like alcohol separation,one of the
> reasons motor fuel smells so nice and does such a good job of
> removing sloshing compound from older aircraft fuel tanks.I could
> run the 87octane in the D35 with the E series engine, but after a
> while the fuel selector got too stiff to turn.A dose of 100LL freed
> it up quickly,so I figured it lubed it some as well,just had to run
> some 100 now and then.But you could be right and I don't mind.You
> will probably get your wish for unleaded 100 sooner than you might
> think.It's high on the EPA's list. Thanks,always enjoy your
> input,Gary Aman Mk3c Jabiru 2200a
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good Morning Lynn,
Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems were
noted.
Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of combustion. Take
away the lead and the combustion characteristics may change in a negative
direction. It seems reasonable that changing the combustion characteristics
will affect engine operations and the change needs to be considered.
In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the
compression ratio.
There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder that can
allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such things are way above
my pay grade!
Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the
results.
I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that felt lead
was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the cheapest way to
eliminate detonation.
I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion characteristics.
That we do have to consider when we set up the engine.
Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes often
have unforeseen results.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 6:50:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson
Good morning Bob-
I haven't spoken with you for a while now...good to hear from you
As to the "cushioning" effect of the lead in leaded gasoline, I offer
the following two anecdotes that I had first-hand knowledge of:
First, I used to work at the Chrysler Proving Grounds as a driver/
mechanic. When the talk of unleaded fuels first appeared, we had a
big-block engine...either a 383 or 413 cu. inch...that we were going
to use as a test vehicle for this fuel. In short order...I don't
recall how long....the engine began to run roughly, and it was
revealed that the valve seats were being "pounded" into the heads.
(The hydraulic valve adjusters compensated for the change in valve
geometry until they ran out of compensation) A few days later a new
set of heads arrived, and they had been "induction hardened"
according to one of the engineers involved in the project. I could
see an area of blue around the valve seats....my memory has faded
enough that I don't recall if all the valve seats were done or only
the exhausts, but it seems like it was only the exhausts.
Cut to about 20 years later (as I recall) and I was living in
California and driving a 1973 Datsun Z, and when California stopped
selling leaded fuel, and I was forced to use it in my Z, the engine
began to run a bit roughly, and I found some valves that were too
tight in their adjustments for clearance. I adjusted accordingly, and
a few weeks later, had to adjust again. And on and on, until I ran
out of adjustment on the rocker arms. Because I needed to keep the Z
running for transportation to work, I got another head from a scrap
yard and dropped it off at the auto machine shop for a valve job and
the installation of hardened seats. To my surprise, the techie called
me and said that this head already had hardened seats installed. That
head is still on my Z and is still running.
So whatever the reason, the leaded fuel did not harm my engine as it
relates to valve operation, but that unleaded stuff sure did a number
on it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1236 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
| From: | "Dennis W. Wilt" <dwwilt(at)aol.com> |
I am an owner of a 1967 Mustang, 390cid. These engines were designed to ru
n on 100 octane leaded gas. When I rebuilt the engine in 1998, I had the m
achine shop install hardened valve seats and they also hardened the exhaust
ports. Unleaded fuel burns much hotter than leaded fuel and will absolute
ly eat up the valve seats on an engine designed to run on leaded fuel. The
exhaust ports may not have needed to be hardened, but what the heck, I did
it anyway. BTW, when I can (and this is usually all the time) I run aviat
ion 100LL in my Mustang.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Morning Lynn,
Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems were note
d.
Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of combustion. Take a
way the lead and the combustion characteristics may change in a negative di
rection. It seems reasonable that changing the combustion characteristics w
ill affect engine operations and the change needs to be considered.
In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the compress
ion ratio.
There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder that can
allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such things are way above
my pay grade!
Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the results
.
I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that felt lead
was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the cheapest way to elimi
nate detonation.
I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion characteristics.
That we do have to consider when we set up the engine.
Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes often hav
e unforeseen results.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 6:50:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, lynnmatt@j
ps.net writes:
Good morning Bob-
I haven't spoken with you for a while now...good to hear from you
As to the "cushioning" effect of the lead in leaded gasoline, I offer
the following two anecdotes that I had first-hand knowledge of:
First, I used to work at the Chrysler Proving Grounds as a driver/
mechanic. When the talk of unleaded fuels first appeared, we had a
big-block engine...either a 383 or 413 cu. inch...that we were going
to use as a test vehicle for this fuel. In short order...I don't
recall how long....the engine began to run roughly, and it was
revealed that the valve seats were being "pounded" into the heads.
(The hydraulic valve adjusters compensated for the change in valve
geometry until they ran out of compensation) A few days later a new
set of heads arrived, and they had been "induction hardened"
according to one of the engineers involved in the project. I could
see an area of blue around the valve seats....my memory has faded
enough that I don't recall if all the valve seats were done or only
the exhausts, but it seems like it was only the exhausts.
Cut to about 20 years later (as I recall) and I was living in
California and driving a 1973 Datsun Z, and when California stopped
selling leaded fuel, and I was forced to use it in my Z, the engine
began to run a bit roughly, and I found some valves that were too
tight in their adjustments for clearance. I adjusted accordingly, and
a few weeks later, had to adjust again. And on and on, until I ran
out of adjustment on the rocker arms. Because I needed to keep the Z
running for transportation to work, I got another head from a scrap
yard and dropped it off at the auto machine shop for a valve job and
the installation of hardened seats. To my surprise, the techie called
me and said that this head already had hardened seats installed. That
head is still on my Z and is still running.
So whatever the reason, the leaded fuel did not harm my engine as it
relates to valve operation, but that unleaded stuff sure did a number
on it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1236 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good Afternoon Dennis,
I really do not feel you can make a flat statement that leaded fuel burns
cooler than unleaded fuel.
It IS true that some engines will run hotter using unleaded fuel than they
will using leaded fuel, but that is because the cylinder pressure is too
high. Has nothing to do with lead or no lead.
Fuel formulations are different all over the country. The fuel is a mixture
of chemicals that meet industry standards. That is true for aviation fuel
as well as non aviation fuel.
If you are running a low compression engine, the lead is just a waste of
money and has no effect on how hot the mixture will burn. Using aviation
fuel does help if the car is not used often. Aviation fuel has a more stable
nature and can be left in the tank for months without gumming up anything.
If you are burning valves when using unleaded fuel, you are probably
getting detonation. Possibly even pre-ignition. If that happens, the engine will
definitely run hotter!
What substantiation do you have that the leaded fuel burns cooler? I have
never heard that nor have I read anything that makes that statement, but am
always willing to learn.
There is more energy in each gallon of lower octane fuel. The higher octane
fuels weigh just a bit less than the low octane fuels and we therefore can
get a bit more energy out of low octane fuel than we can from high octane
fuel, but we cannot run at as high a cylinder pressure when running low
octane fuel.
We use high compression ratios to get more power out of the same size
engine and the high compression can gain some efficiency provided it has a
high octane fuel.
There are other formulations that can raise the octane of the fuel, but the
components are much more expensive than Tetra Ethyl Lead.
If you can point me toward a reliable source that will tell us that leaded
fuel burns cooler than unleaded fuel, I would sure like to find out where I
am wrong.
Always learning something new!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 1:04:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
dwwilt(at)aol.com writes:
I am an owner of a 1967 Mustang, 390cid. These engines were designed to
run on 100 octane leaded gas. When I rebuilt the engine in 1998, I had the
machine shop install hardened valve seats and they also hardened the
exhaust ports. Unleaded fuel burns much hotter than leaded fuel and will
absolutely eat up the valve seats on an engine designed to run on leaded fuel.
The exhaust ports may not have needed to be hardened, but what the heck, I
did it anyway. BTW, when I can (and this is usually all the time) I run
aviation 100LL in my Mustang.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (_Arion Lightning_ (http://www.flylightning.net/) S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Morning Lynn,
Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems were
noted.
Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of combustion. Take
away the lead and the combustion characteristics may change in a negative
direction. It seems reasonable that changing the combustion characteristics
will affect engine operations and the change needs to be considered.
In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the
compression ratio.
There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder that
can allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such things are way above
my pay grade!
Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the
results.
I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that felt lead
was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the cheapest way to
eliminate detonation.
I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion characteristics.
That we do have to consider when we set up the engine.
Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes often
have unforeseen results.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
| From: | "Dennis W. Wilt" <dwwilt(at)aol.com> |
Bob,
If you are running an engine designed to run on 100 octane fuel and you can
only get less than that, you will burn the valve seats. Any classic car g
uy will tell you that. Every old classic car engine that gets rebuilt will
have hardened seats installed or the machine shop doesn't understand older
engines running on unleaded / lower octane fuel. Especially those with hi
gher compression engines. I could probably get buy without using hardened
seats in a 200cid 6 cylinder from the 60's. You must know 100 octane anyth
ing burns cooler than 91 or less octane fuel. I should have said that sinc
e you can't buy 100 octane unleaded fuel (in most places) that auto fuel is
lower octane and burns hotter than 100LL.
Ethanol is horrible for older cars and their fuel lines that have not been
changed in a while. After about 4 years, all of my fuel lines began to lea
k because there is something in there that just makes them deteriorate. An
other problem with auto fuel is finding non-ethanol gas. Unless you go to
a marina, it is very difficult to find just anywhere. You surely can't us
e ethanol in a fiberglass tank. Talk to the marine folks about that one.
I have fiberglass tanks in my Lightning. I choose to use 100LL. Too hard
to find unleaded premium without ethanol and who is to say it may have it a
nyway since ethanol is standard now for car fuel.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 2:46 pm
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Afternoon Dennis,
I really do not feel you can make a flat statement that leaded fuel burns c
ooler than unleaded fuel.
It IS true that some engines will run hotter using unleaded fuel than they
will using leaded fuel, but that is because the cylinder pressure is too hi
gh. Has nothing to do with lead or no lead.
Fuel formulations are different all over the country. The fuel is a mixture
of chemicals that meet industry standards. That is true for aviation fuel
as well as non aviation fuel.
If you are running a low compression engine, the lead is just a waste of mo
ney and has no effect on how hot the mixture will burn. Using aviation fue
l does help if the car is not used often. Aviation fuel has a more stable n
ature and can be left in the tank for months without gumming up anything.
If you are burning valves when using unleaded fuel, you are probably gettin
g detonation. Possibly even pre-ignition. If that happens, the engine will
definitely run hotter!
What substantiation do you have that the leaded fuel burns cooler? I have n
ever heard that nor have I read anything that makes that statement, but am
always willing to learn.
There is more energy in each gallon of lower octane fuel. The higher octane
fuels weigh just a bit less than the low octane fuels and we therefore can
get a bit more energy out of low octane fuel than we can from high octane
fuel, but we cannot run at as high a cylinder pressure when running low oct
ane fuel.
We use high compression ratios to get more power out of the same size engin
e and the high compression can gain some efficiency provided it has a high
octane fuel.
There are other formulations that can raise the octane of the fuel, but the
components are much more expensive than Tetra Ethyl Lead.
If you can point me toward a reliable source that will tell us that leaded
fuel burns cooler than unleaded fuel, I would sure like to find out where I
am wrong.
Always learning something new!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 1:04:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dwwilt@aol
.com writes:
I am an owner of a 1967 Mustang, 390cid. These engines were designed to ru
n on 100 octane leaded gas. When I rebuilt the engine in 1998, I had the m
achine shop install hardened valve seats and they also hardened the exhaust
ports. Unleaded fuel burns much hotter than leaded fuel and will absolute
ly eat up the valve seats on an engine designed to run on leaded fuel. The
exhaust ports may not have needed to be hardened, but what the heck, I did
it anyway. BTW, when I can (and this is usually all the time) I run aviat
ion 100LL in my Mustang.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B <BobsV35B(at)aol.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 18, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: valve problem
Good Morning Lynn,
Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems were note
d.
Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of combustion. Take a
way the lead and the combustion characteristics may change in a negative di
rection. It seems reasonable that changing the combustion characteristics w
ill affect engine operations and the change needs to be considered.
In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the compress
ion ratio.
There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder that can
allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such things are way above
my pay grade!
Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the results
.
I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that felt lead
was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the cheapest way to elimi
nate detonation.
I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion characteristics.
That we do have to consider when we set up the engine.
Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes often hav
e unforeseen results.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good Afternoon Dennis,
I am afraid we are trying to talk about many things all at the same time.
Fact one. Engines that have high cylinder pressures will need a higher
octane fuel. (If we really want to get technical, we can change the delivery
system to inject the fuel in a way that will allow higher cylinder pressures
to be utilized with lower octane fuel. Things are being done with modern
automobile engines to address that problem, but discussion of such procedures
are far beyond my current capability.)
If no high octane fuel is available, we can get by with a lower octane fuel
by avoiding full throttle operation, but the safer way is to lower the
compression ratio.
Any fuel with higher octane will avoid detonation. The octane does not have
to be increased by using lead. There are other methods of getting high
octane, but those methods cost more than adding lead.
Fact Two. If you get detonation, you will probably burn valves and you may
blow the thing up! Even bend rods!
I do not see anywhere that you have shown that leaded fuel burns cooler.
What we agree on is that high compression ratios lead to high cylinder
pressures and we need a higher octane to safely run at those higher cylinder
pressures. Get detonation and the engine will run hotter, but that is NOT due
to the fuel inherently burning at a different temperature!
Fact Three. I am not a fan of Ethanol, but if it was all we had, our
engines and fuel delivery systems could be redesigned to utilize that fuel.
At the present time, Ethanol has less power available per gallon and the
cost is very high. Without subsidies, I doubt if anyone would voluntarily use
Ethanol.
Let us please take these problems one at a time so we can easily digest the
problems involved.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/18/2012 2:44:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
dwwilt(at)aol.com writes:
Bob,
If you are running an engine designed to run on 100 octane fuel and you
can only get less than that, you will burn the valve seats. Any classic car
guy will tell you that. Every old classic car engine that gets rebuilt
will have hardened seats installed or the machine shop doesn't understand
older engines running on unleaded / lower octane fuel. Especially those with
higher compression engines. I could probably get buy without using hardened
seats in a 200cid 6 cylinder from the 60's. You must know 100 octane
anything burns cooler than 91 or less octane fuel. I should have said that
since you can't buy 100 octane unleaded fuel (in most places) that auto fuel
is lower octane and burns hotter than 100LL.
Ethanol is horrible for older cars and their fuel lines that have not been
changed in a while. After about 4 years, all of my fuel lines began to
leak because there is something in there that just makes them deteriorate.
Another problem with auto fuel is finding non-ethanol gas. Unless you go
to a marina, it is very difficult to find just anywhere. You surely can't
use ethanol in a fiberglass tank. Talk to the marine folks about that one.
I have fiberglass tanks in my Lightning. I choose to use 100LL. Too hard
to find unleaded premium without ethanol and who is to say it may have it
anyway since ethanol is standard now for car fuel.
Have a wonderful day,
Dennis
N616DW (_Arion Lightning_ (http://www.flylightning.net/) S/N 132)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: valve problem |
Good morning, Bob-
No, I don't have a clue to what the problem was, nor if those
induction hardened (if indeed they were) valve seats cured the
problem. (We had three shifts working the proving grounds those days,
and quite often a problem would come and go before a worker could
such as I was, could return to work and try to track down what was
done. We also would be moved around from project to project, from day
to day, and this really kept us in the dark.)
(Thinking back to those days, we also had a slant-six that was touted
as a "lean-burn" vehicle, and was one of the 3 cars that we drove
from Michigan to Phoenix and eventually on to California for cooling
systems testing.)
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1237 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Mar 18, 2012, at 9:29 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning Lynn,
>
> Do you recall what the engineers decided was the problem at Chrysler?
>
> When I attended school concerning engine operation, such problems
> were noted.
>
> Lead does a good low cost job of controlling the rate of
> combustion. Take away the lead and the combustion characteristics
> may change in a negative direction. It seems reasonable that
> changing the combustion characteristics will affect engine
> operations and the change needs to be considered.
>
> In a very general way, take out the lead and you need to lower the
> compression ratio.
>
> There are ways of controlling the timing of fuel into the cylinder
> that can allow higher compression with unleaded fuel, but such
> things are way above my pay grade!
>
> Once again. I am not an engineer, just an interested student of the
> results.
>
> I have never found a graduate engineer trained in the field that
> felt lead was beneficial to the engine, though the lead was the
> cheapest way to eliminate detonation.
>
> I think we can all agree that detonation is a bad thing!
>
> Taking away the lead will certainly change the combustion
> characteristics. That we do have to consider when we set up the
> engine.
>
> Your experience certainly emphasizes the point that small changes
> often have unforeseen results.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 3/18/2012 6:50:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes:
>
>
> Good morning Bob-
>
> I haven't spoken with you for a while now...good to hear from you
>
> As to the "cushioning" effect of the lead in leaded gasoline, I offer
> the following two anecdotes that I had first-hand knowledge of:
> First, I used to work at the Chrysler Proving Grounds as a driver/
> mechanic. When the talk of unleaded fuels first appeared, we had a
> big-block engine...either a 383 or 413 cu. inch...that we were going
> to use as a test vehicle for this fuel. In short order...I don't
> recall how long....the engine began to run roughly, and it was
> revealed that the valve seats were being "pounded" into the heads.
> (The hydraulic valve adjusters compensated for the change in valve
> geometry until they ran out of compensation) A few days later a new
> set of heads arrived, and they had been "induction hardened"
> according to one of the engineers involved in the project. I could
> see an area of blue around the valve seats....my memory has faded
> enough that I don't recall if all the valve seats were done or only
> the exhausts, but it seems like it was only the exhausts.
>
> Cut to about 20 years later (as I recall) and I was living in
> California and driving a 1973 Datsun Z, and when California stopped
> selling leaded fuel, and I was forced to use it in my Z, the engine
> began to run a bit roughly, and I found some valves that were too
> tight in their adjustments for clearance. I adjusted accordingly, and
> a few weeks later, had to adjust again. And on and on, until I ran
> out of adjustment on the rocker arms. Because I needed to keep the Z
> running for transportation to work, I got another head from a scrap
> yard and dropped it off at the auto machine shop for a valve job and
> the installation of hardened seats. To my surprise, the techie called
> me and said that this head already had hardened seats installed. That
> head is still on my Z and is still running.
>
> So whatever the reason, the leaded fuel did not harm my engine as it
> relates to valve operation, but that unleaded stuff sure did a number
> on it.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062
> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
> Status: flying with 1236 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 3300 First Run Oil Question |
| From: | "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com> |
Mike,
It has been a while since I first filled my 3300 with oil so I don't remember how
much I had to put in, but I believe I just filled until the oil hit the low
end of the hashed area and ran the engine. If you have the Jabiru USA oil cooler,
I believe it is larger than the one in the Jabiru Australia manuals and
will need more oil to fill.
After an oil change, 3.3 quarts of oil get me to this same hashed area, but my
cooler already has oil in it. Since you are starting off with an empty oil cooler,
you will need more oil to get to the same spot. After the system is filled,
you can adjust accordingly. Do not fill oil past the halfway point. Above
this, you may experience foaming that will result in oil pressures and temperatures
acting funny. Search the archives for a post I wrote on a return flight
from Oshkosh in 2010 where I over serviced the oil and had to make a precautionary
landing.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 200+ hours now
Next project under construction: Aircamper
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368891#368891
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 3300 First Run Oil Question |
| From: | "AZFlyer" <millrML(at)aol.com> |
Dave,
Thanks for the input.
I could not see the oil coming up on the stick... so now it's at the top of the
indicator.... but I have a quick drain installed that I can remove a little
or a lot to bring the level down.
Appreciate your timely response...
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368902#368902
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net |
List
We have two Jabiru 3300 in my area and both have shown a brown oily residue at
the bottom six o'clock position middle of the cylinder. It is right at the point
where the head joins the cylinders.The substance looks like oil but is a little
more sticky and has blackened spots in it. It is on 5 of my cylinders ( 146
hrs ) and only on the #4 and #6 of the other engine with only 28 hrs. I believe
it to be burnt oil leaking between the heads and cylinders. Has anyone else
experienced this and know what it is. Should we be concerned???
Bobby ( age 73 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 146 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: Oily Residue |
That's blow by. Your head-to-cylinder surface is leaking. Perhaps your
heads are not properly torqued up or they are warped due to overheating.
Rob
On 3/19/2012 9:25 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:
> List
> We have two Jabiru 3300 in my area and both have shown a brown oily
> residue at the bottom six o'clock position middle of the cylinder. It
> is right at the point where the head joins the cylinders.The substance
> looks like oil but is a little more sticky and has blackened spots in
> it. It is on 5 of my cylinders ( 146 hrs ) and only on the #4 and #6
> of the other engine with only 28 hrs. I believe it to be burnt oil
> leaking between the heads and cylinders. Has anyone else experienced
> this and know what it is. Should we be concerned???
>
> Bobby ( age 73 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 146 hrs.
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "j. davis" <jwd3ca(at)gmail.com> |
Greetings Gear Heads ;')
Headed to Lakeland for the week (next), just wondering who on these
lists is also attending. It would be great to put faces to some of the
familiar names...
Find me in/near the white VW Eurovan pop-top van with a large Canadian
flag. The big black dog is very friendly ;')
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Oily Residue |
| From: | "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net> |
Rob, Not long after purchasing my plane 3 years ago with 50 hours, I had noticed
the same staining on the bottom of two cylinders. I found that these heads are
easy to remove for inspection and cleaning. Once removed, gently scrape to
remove the crusty oil deposits from the end of the barrel and inside the receiver
groove of the head. On assembly I use a very thin film of an nickel anti-seize
on the end of the barrel and on the head bolts and torque to spec. I have
not had any problems ever since, just watch your head temps. Hope this helps...DonB
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369032#369032
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sun 'n' Fun? |
| From: | "Dennis W. Wilt" <dwwilt(at)aol.com> |
I am driving over for the day on Tuesday (shopping trip) and flying over fo
r the weekend on Friday. Over the weekend, I'll be running all over the pl
ace and will likely be around the Lightning tent a lot of the time. Hopefu
lly, I'll see you there.
Dennis
N616DW (Arion Lightning S/N 132)
-----Original Message-----
From: j. davis <jwd3ca(at)gmail.com>
iruengines(at)yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:30 pm
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Sun 'n' Fun?
Greetings Gear Heads ;')
Headed to Lakeland for the week (next), just wondering who on these
ists is also attending. It would be great to put faces to some of the
amiliar names...
Find me in/near the white VW Eurovan pop-top van with a large Canadian
lag. The big black dog is very friendly ;')
-========================
-= - The JabiruEngine-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
-
-========================
-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
-
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-
-========================
-= - List Contribution Web Site -
-= Thank you for your generous support!
-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sun 'n' Fun? |
| From: | "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> |
If it's not to late and you get a change would you check out the AP420 prop for
the Jabiru. I know that one is installed on an Europa with a Jabiru 3300.
Like to hear what the numbers are. The one number that is hard to take is the
price: $7000.00
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369271#369271
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sun 'n' Fun? |
| From: | "richardcoo" <richardcoo(at)yahoo.com> |
There's a good deal of noise and interest re variable pitch or constant speed propeller
options for the Jab' 3300. I'm considering a Lightning build myself over
the southern hemisphere winter and spring months and this phase has caused
me to spend more than a few hours researching options. From what I've researched,
here's options so far:
Ameri-Tech - "Whirl Wind" series (2 blade - no pricing offered)
Airmaster - model AP420 (US$7,000) made in NZ
MT Propeller - model MTV-1 (EU8,200), MTV-7 (EU9,700)
Woodcomp - series SR3000, models 3B(EU5,145) and 3J (EU4,845)
Pricing all ex-works and subject to currency fluctuation and individual quotations.
All are electrically manipulated variants as best I can determine, and engage some
form of controller in the instrument panel to control the propeller's angle
of incidence to the free airstream ahead of the aircraft.
There's still work to be done, as Jabiru in Bundaberg, QLD (Australia) appear to
have little research into variable incidence or constant speed propellers. As
such the safest route is to progress with the engine manufacturers recommendation,
or an option with considerable time in service of the engine as the existing
Lightning options have.
That said, however and in the spirit of experimental aviation, there's basis in
my opinion to consider a variable pitch or constant speed option. However caution
and a well thought out strategy and testing plan as part of the aircraft's
initial testing or in the case of a retrofit, separate testing is warranted
to gather data, familiarise the pilot with operating techniques and demonstrate
the acceptability or non-conformance of a propeller option. Maybe one of the
manufacturers will get behind a well developed testing program to validate their
variant on a Lightning?
In summary, proceed with caution. Utilise the resources available to you in the
form of DAR, engineering, expertise, additional research and safe flying.
Kind Regards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369338#369338
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine Surges |
| From: | "Thruster87" <alania(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Talked to Jab Aus and they cannot source the black floats anymore so back to white.After
changing idle jet to 45 and freeing the balance tube blockage took the
plane for a circuit and everything went well.On the second circuit pulled throttle
back to 2000 rpm and it started surging again and once over the threshold
back to idle stop and the fan stopped.It started straight away and I taxied
back to hangar.On turning the prop at the hangar it seemed quite tight compared
to pre- flight [ when it was cold] .How does your engine compare hot to cold
? Cheers Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369504#369504
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine Surges |
| From: | Gary Aman <zeprep251(at)aol.com> |
Alan,
Not unusual for the engine to be tight shortly after shutdown when the cyli
nder temps are high.Forged pistons change dimension quite a bit with temp.T
hey clank a bit when cold and drag some when really heat soaked after shutd
own.That's one of the reasons .015 cold clearance is OK in some larger engi
nes.This has been my experience only and is open to revision by more knowle
dgeable sources.
G.Aman jabiru 2200A 700hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: Thruster87 <alania(at)optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:17 pm
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Engine Surges
au>
Talked to Jab Aus and they cannot source the black floats anymore so back t
o
white.After changing idle jet to 45 and freeing the balance tube blockage t
ook
the plane for a circuit and everything went well.On the second circuit pull
ed
throttle back to 2000 rpm and it started surging again and once over the
threshold back to idle stop and the fan stopped.It started straight away an
d I
taxied back to hangar.On turning the prop at the hangar it seemed quite tig
ht
compared to pre- flight [ when it was cold] .How does your engine compare h
ot to
cold ? Cheers Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369504#369504
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Surges |
Gary-
I don't think you'll find that the Jabiru pistons are forged.....at
least mine are not. Maybe some of them are, but mine are cast, I'm
almost 100% sure.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1242 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Mar 29, 2012, at 9:43 AM, Gary Aman wrote:
> Alan,
> Not unusual for the engine to be tight shortly after shutdown when
> the cylinder temps are high.Forged pistons change dimension quite a
> bit with temp.They clank a bit when cold and drag some when really
> heat soaked after shutdown.That's one of the reasons .015 cold
> clearance is OK in some larger engines.This has been my experience
> only and is open to revision by more knowledgeable sources.
> G.Aman jabiru 2200A 700hrs
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Anybody running LOP? |
With all this recent talk of "flight adjustable" carbs, TBI, etc., is
there anybody out there running their engines "lean-of-peak EGT"?
I have, and I'm pleasantly surprised at the results. If you haven't,
you're in for a different style of flying, that could extend your
engine's life and save fuel in the bargain. Read some articles about
this phenomenon, try it, and see if it works for you. I've got over
500 flying hours on my engine running LOP, and what they say is
true....engine runs cleaner, cooler, and burns less fuel. You won't
get there as fast as you used to, but who's counting time? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1247 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: While Checking the Magnetos, intermittent shutdown |
| From: | "dwwilt" <dwwilt(at)aol.com> |
Just an update. I replaced the ACS ignition switch and have not had a problem
since. I opened up the original switch and could not see anything wrong with
it. They are very simple devices.
--------
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370617#370617
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise |
| From: | "dwwilt" <dwwilt(at)aol.com> |
I made a search of the forum and could not find this, so I am asking the group.
I have ignition noise in my radios. I have the Jabiru 3300 in an Arion Lightning.
My radio stack has a PS-Engineering PMA5000EX with a SL-30 and SL-40. I
know where to install the capacitor on a standard type alternator, but the built
in alternator for the Jabiru makes it kind of hard to decide where to put it.
Has anyone had this issue and solved it with the capacitor? And if you did, how
did you install it?
Thanks,
--------
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370618#370618
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
| Subject: | Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise |
I don't think a capacitor on the charging circuit will do anything for noise
from the ignition. If the noise is from the alternator or regulator then
maybe it might help. It sounds somewhat like you are trying to slice an
orange by cutting into a watermelon. (forgive my awkward attempt at humorous
analogy).
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dwwilt
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:09 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise
I made a search of the forum and could not find this, so I am asking the
group.
I have ignition noise in my radios. I have the Jabiru 3300 in an Arion
Lightning. My radio stack has a PS-Engineering PMA5000EX with a SL-30 and
SL-40. I know where to install the capacitor on a standard type alternator,
but the built in alternator for the Jabiru makes it kind of hard to decide
where to put it.
Has anyone had this issue and solved it with the capacitor? And if you did,
how did you install it?
Thanks,
--------
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370618#370618
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Dennis:
What value is the capacitor?
Is it a low value such as 0.2 uF?
Or a high one such as 25,000 uF (or greater)?
The small value goes right next to the OUTPUT of the alternator. Keep the
leads SHORT.
The High value - Well, there you have some options. You can put it right at
the B+ Buss to Ground. That way it removes the noise and filters all of
the electrical system.
OR, you can also put it right at the alternator - The SAME as the low value
capacitor.
But there it will not do as much to remove noise entering the radios.
The BEST of both worlds is to use BOTH value capacitors... Small value at
the alternator and the larger at the B+ Buss.
AND... One more trick... Install a ferrite (snap on) bead on the alternator
wire as close to the battery as possible. The bead must be a TIGHT fit
over the alternator output wire.
Question: What type and where is the ACU (Alternator Control Unit) located?
Barry
Electrical Engineer
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 3:08 PM, dwwilt wrote:
>
> I made a search of the forum and could not find this, so I am asking the
> group.
>
> I have ignition noise in my radios. I have the Jabiru 3300 in an Arion
> Lightning. My radio stack has a PS-Engineering PMA5000EX with a SL-30 and
> SL-40. I know where to install the capacitor on a standard type
> alternator, but the built in alternator for the Jabiru makes it kind of
> hard to decide where to put it.
>
> Has anyone had this issue and solved it with the capacitor? And if you
> did, how did you install it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Dennis
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370618#370618
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | vvkidd(at)mindspring.com |
| Subject: | Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise |
Check out your grounds. You must have a common ground to ensure a no noise
enviornment.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com>
>Sent: Apr 12, 2012 3:29 PM
>To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise
>
>
>I don't think a capacitor on the charging circuit will do anything for noise
>from the ignition. If the noise is from the alternator or regulator then
>maybe it might help. It sounds somewhat like you are trying to slice an
>orange by cutting into a watermelon. (forgive my awkward attempt at humorous
>analogy).
>
>Pete
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dwwilt
>Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:09 PM
>To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise
>
>
>I made a search of the forum and could not find this, so I am asking the
>group.
>
>I have ignition noise in my radios. I have the Jabiru 3300 in an Arion
>Lightning. My radio stack has a PS-Engineering PMA5000EX with a SL-30 and
>SL-40. I know where to install the capacitor on a standard type alternator,
>but the built in alternator for the Jabiru makes it kind of hard to decide
>where to put it.
>
>Has anyone had this issue and solved it with the capacitor? And if you did,
>how did you install it?
>
>Thanks,
>
>--------
>Dennis
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370618#370618
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise |
| From: | "dwwilt" <dwwilt(at)aol.com> |
For a composite aircraft, I have fairly good grounds. I have an Arion Lightning.
However, grounding is always an issue for composites. Using a capacitor for
ignition noise in the radios has been a standard for many, many years. They
take the ripple out of the alternator output which can and does transmit RF.
In a composite aircraft, this is a real issue, more so than in an aluminum skinned
aircraft where the radios are basically shielded by the airframe.
Barry is spot on with his discussion and I need to determine what size capacitor
would be best. Cessna uses a 5.72 microfarad capacitor in it's system. And
yes, the leads need to be very short to reduce the capacitor's resonance frequency.
We don't want it transmitting in the audio or Nav/Comm range. I suppose
using both a large and small capacitor would be best as Barry suggests.
I assumed that since I have a Jabiru 3300 the ACU is a Jabiru unit and came with
the engine. I installed the engine, but the engine systems were installed by
the dealer.
Barry, are you speaking about installation on a Jabiru Engine or in general? BTW,
I am also an Electrical Engineer, but my design work was on integrated circuits
in the 80's.
--------
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370729#370729
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitor Installation for Ignition Noise |
Dennis,
I've been about half following this discussion, and I too am a retired
EE. Let me make a few quick comments.
If you want to add a filter capacitor to the alternator I would be sure
to keep it small. If you put a large capacitor on an AC circuit it will
load it down rather than providing the RF filtering you seek. Large
caps can be put on DC circuits like your 12V supply, but you probably
don't need this. The power supplies in quality radios like your SL-30
will filter the input power quite nicely.
I think the key to getting rid of radio noise - especially when you have
high quality equipment - is to make sure you have a very firm ground
connecting all the electronics to the system ground point. You also
need to be sure you have properly shielded and grounded the audio cable
from your headset to the radio. This is usually isolated from the
system ground.
Good luck,
Paul
Camas, WA
On 4/13/2012 1:43 PM, dwwilt wrote:
> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dwwilt"
>
> For a composite aircraft, I have fairly good grounds. I have an Arion Lightning.
However, grounding is always an issue for composites. Using a capacitor
for ignition noise in the radios has been a standard for many, many years. They
take the ripple out of the alternator output which can and does transmit RF.
In a composite aircraft, this is a real issue, more so than in an aluminum
skinned aircraft where the radios are basically shielded by the airframe.
>
> Barry is spot on with his discussion and I need to determine what size capacitor
would be best. Cessna uses a 5.72 microfarad capacitor in it's system. And
yes, the leads need to be very short to reduce the capacitor's resonance frequency.
We don't want it transmitting in the audio or Nav/Comm range. I suppose
using both a large and small capacitor would be best as Barry suggests.
>
> I assumed that since I have a Jabiru 3300 the ACU is a Jabiru unit and came with
the engine. I installed the engine, but the engine systems were installed
by the dealer.
>
> Barry, are you speaking about installation on a Jabiru Engine or in general?
BTW, I am also an Electrical Engineer, but my design work was on integrated circuits
in the 80's.
>
> --------
> Dennis
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=370729#370729
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 3300 "type-certification engine and prop combo" |
| From: | "AZFlyer" <millrML(at)aol.com> |
List,
Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was "type-certified"...
and had no idea what that meant. To be eligible for 25 hour flight test (vs
40 hour).
If the 3300 is type-certified where do I find documentation supporting that?
Thanks,
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371528#371528
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 3300 "type-certification engine and prop combo" |
It's not.
You just have to do 40 hours of phase I flight test.
Paul
Camas, WA
Zodiac XL, Jab 3300
On 4/22/2012 4:14 PM, AZFlyer wrote:
> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "AZFlyer"
>
> List,
>
> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was "type-certified"...
and had no idea what that meant. To be eligible for 25 hour flight test
(vs 40 hour).
>
> If the 3300 is type-certified where do I find documentation supporting that?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> --------
> Mike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com
> 601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
>
> Remember,"the second mouse gets the cheese"!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371528#371528
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 3300 "type-certification engine and prop combo" |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Mike:
TC or Type Certification is when the FAA had revised the design, components
and assembly procedures. Here is a like to the FAA web site. Look under
By Make and By Type to find Jabiru. But, since YOU are allowed to make
modifications, repairs and over hauls I doubt if it is TC'd. The other
part of a TC and the 25 hours Vs 40 Hours is: Is the engine TC to the
plane. Again I doubt it.
Barry
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 7:14 PM, AZFlyer wrote:
>
> List,
>
> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant. To be eligible for
> 25 hour flight test (vs 40 hour).
>
> If the 3300 is type-certified where do I find documentation supporting
> that?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> --------
> Mike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com
> 601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
>
> Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371528#371528
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 3300 "type-certification engine and prop combo" |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
Mike:
TC or Type Certification is when the FAA had revised the design, components
and assembly procedures. Here is a like to the FAA web site. Look under
By Make and By Type to find Jabiru. But, since YOU are allowed to make
modifications, repairs and over hauls I doubt if it is TC'd. The other
part of a TC and the 25 hours Vs 40 Hours is: Is the engine TC to the
plane. Again I doubt it.
>
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
Barry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clive <zcrj90(at)yahoo.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
The only people that need certifying are mugs like us that bought the ruddy
thing......=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: AZFlyer <m
illrML(at)aol.com>=0ATo: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 23 A
pril 2012, 0:14=0ASubject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300 "type-certification engi
=0A=0AList,=0A=0ARecently I was asked if the 3300 engine p
rop combination was "type-certified"...- and had no idea what that meant.
- To be eligible for 25 hour flight test (vs 40 hour).=0A=0AIf the 3300 i
s type-certified where do I find documentation supporting that?=0A=0AThanks
,=0AMike=0A=0A--------=0AMike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com=0A601 XL-B, 3300, Dy
non=0A=0ARemember,- "the second mouse gets the cheese"!=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view
-========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Right you are Clive.
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:16 AM, Clive wrote:
> The only people that need certifying are mugs like us that bought the
> ruddy thing......
>
> *From:* AZFlyer
> *To:* jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Monday, 23 April 2012, 0:14
> *Subject:* JabiruEngine-List: 3300 "type-certification engine and prop
> combo"
>
>
> List,
>
> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant. To be eligible for
> 25 hour flight test (vs 40 hour).
>
> If the 3300 is type-certified where do I find documentation supporting
> that?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> --------
> Mike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com
> 601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
>
> Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371528#371528
>
>
> **http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?J - MATRONICS WEB
> FORUMS -**; &nb href="
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution" ======
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
"type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
Hi,
in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of
engine and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe
and complying with noise rules.
Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type
approved might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had
been done in one instance of course and approved it is then OK for
anyone else who wishes to do the same thing.
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
| From: | "James, Clive R" <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com> |
The work needed by a manufacturer to get certification is immense, also
given what we know about Jabiru engines they could never achieve it as
their record is dire.
We benefit from an uncertified world so we can use cheap uncertified
equipment, and we get what we pay for....
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat
Ladd
Sent: 23 April 2012 10:24
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
"type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
Hi,
in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of
engine and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe
and complying with noise rules.
Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type
approved might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had
been done in one instance of course and approved it is then OK for
anyone else who wishes to do the same thing.
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
We benefit from an uncertified world so we can use cheap uncertified
equipment, and we get what we pay for..>>
You certainly can if you are under the American Experimental banner and
I envy that.. On the other hand I dont think that anyone in the UK would
think of setting fire to their machine rather than sell it and accept
the liability. Not yet anyway
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JohnDRead(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
It may be worth emailing JabiruUSA to see if the prop/engine combination
you wish to use has been type certified on any of the Jabiru planes, if so I
think that would be OK for general use. It would be great to not have to
spend 40 hours test flying!
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 4/23/2012 3:25:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:
Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
"type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
Hi,
in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of engine
and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe and
complying with noise rules.
Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type approved
might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had been done in
one instance of course and approved it is then OK for anyone else who wishes
to do the same thing.
Pat
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JohnDRead(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
And your point is?? There are plenty of so called Type certified engines
that have very poor TBO times.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 4/23/2012 3:45:02 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
clive.james(at)uk.bp.com writes:
The work needed by a manufacturer to get certification is immense, also
given what we know about Jabiru engines they could never achieve it as the
ir
record is dire.
We benefit from an uncertified world so we can use cheap uncertified
equipment, and we get what we pay for.
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Lad
d
Sent: 23 April 2012 10:24
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
"type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
Hi,
in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of engine
and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe and
complying with noise rules.
Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type approved
might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had been done in
one instance of course and approved it is then OK for anyone else who wish
es
to do the same thing.
Pat
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Ya know guys, I just don't understand it. ;-)
Ya built the plane to fly. So what is the difference if you fly 25 hrs or
40 hrs to get it signed off? Tong fully extended at DAR.
Only problem I would have with it is distance allowed... Maybe you could
request a larger area to fly in, or start with 25 Hrs and a small area (if
that is the issue ) and have the DAR sign off on a larger area after you
reach 25 Hrs. But get the sign off right at the start.
Barry
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 5:43 PM, wrote:
> **
> It may be worth emailing JabiruUSA to see if the prop/engine combination
> you wish to use has been type certified on any of the Jabiru planes, if so
> I think that would be OK for general use. It would be great to not have to
> spend 40 hours test flying!
>
>
> Regards, John
>
> CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
>
> Cell: 719-494-4567
> Home: 303-648-3261
>
> In a message dated 4/23/2012 3:25:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
> pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:
>
> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
>
> Hi,
> in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of engine
> and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe and
> complying with noise rules.
> Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type approved
> might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had been done in
> one instance of course and approved it is then OK for anyone else who
> wishes to do the same thing.
>
> Pat
>
> *
>
> ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Lists.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
Each country has their own "Type Certification" process and thus their own list
of type certified engines, props, airframes, components etc.
The FAA type certificates for any of these things can be found at
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
If you click on the letter J you will see that there are no listings for Jabiru,
which means there are no Type Certified Jabiru engines, airframes or props etc
in the USA. This is not the case for say New Zealand and I would guess Australia
and some other countries.
Rotax (BRP Powertrain) does have FAA type certificated engine versions in the US.
As in...
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/63abcd80c77a8900862578b200597090/$FILE/E00051EN.pdf
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371700#371700
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gordon Arbeitman <gordona23(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | type certified engines |
I've read that Rotax offers a "certified" version of their 912 engines.
It seems that the main difference is a documented audit trail of every
part used to build the engine. Otherwise, it is the exact same engine
.... no performance or reliability improvements. If I recall correctly,
the "certification" adds $7000 to the cost of the engine. The military
is probably the only customer.
So, until we start seeing Jabiru engines being used in military drones,
I wouldn't expect to see a "certified" version.
On 4/24/12 3:00 AM, JabiruEngine-List Digest Server wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete JabiruEngine-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the JabiruEngine-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 12-04-23&Archive=JabiruEngine
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 12-04-23&Archive=JabiruEngine
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Mon 04/23/12: 8
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 12:17 AM - Jabiru 3300 "certification" (Clive)
> 2. 12:38 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" (FLYaDIVE)
> 3. 02:25 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" (Pat Ladd)
> 4. 02:44 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" (James, Clive R)
> 5. 06:04 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" (Pat Ladd)
> 6. 02:44 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" (JohnDRead(at)aol.com)
> 7. 02:45 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" (JohnDRead(at)aol.com)
> 8. 03:30 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 "certification" (FLYaDIVE)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: Clive<zcrj90(at)yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
>
> The only people that need certifying are mugs like us that bought the ruddy
> thing......=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: AZFlyer<m
> illrML(at)aol.com>=0ATo: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 23 A
> pril 2012, 0:14=0ASubject: JabiruEngine-List: 3300 "type-certification engi
> =0A=0AList,=0A=0ARecently I was asked if the 3300 engine p
> rop combination was "type-certified"...- and had no idea what that meant.
> - To be eligible for 25 hour flight test (vs 40 hour).=0A=0AIf the 3300 i
> s type-certified where do I find documentation supporting that?=0A=0AThanks
> ,=0AMike=0A=0A--------=0AMike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com=0A601 XL-B, 3300, Dy
> non=0A=0ARemember,-"the second mouse gets the cheese"!=0A=0A
> =0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view
> -=======================
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
> From: FLYaDIVE<flyadive(at)gmail.com>
>
> Right you are Clive.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:16 AM, Clive wrote:
>
>> The only people that need certifying are mugs like us that bought the
>> ruddy thing......
>>
>> *From:* AZFlyer
>> *To:* jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Monday, 23 April 2012, 0:14
>> *Subject:* JabiruEngine-List: 3300 "type-certification engine and prop
>> combo"
>>
>>
>> List,
>>
>> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
>> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant. To be eligible for
>> 25 hour flight test (vs 40 hour).
>>
>> If the 3300 is type-certified where do I find documentation supporting
>> that?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> Mike Miller @ millrml(at)aol.com
>> 601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
>>
>> Remember,"the second mouse gets the cheese"!
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371528#371528
>>
>>
>> **http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?J - MATRONICS WEB
>> FORUMS -**;&nb href="
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution" =====
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: "Pat Ladd"<pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
>
> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
>
> Hi,
> in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of
> engine and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe
> and complying with noise rules.
> Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type
> approved might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had
> been done in one instance of course and approved it is then OK for
> anyone else who wishes to do the same thing.
>
> Pat
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
> From: "James, Clive R"<clive.james(at)uk.bp.com>
>
> The work needed by a manufacturer to get certification is immense, also
> given what we know about Jabiru engines they could never achieve it as
> their record is dire.
>
> We benefit from an uncertified world so we can use cheap uncertified
> equipment, and we get what we pay for....
>
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat
> Ladd
> Sent: 23 April 2012 10:24
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
>
>
> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of
> engine and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe
> and complying with noise rules.
>
> Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type
> approved might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had
> been done in one instance of course and approved it is then OK for
> anyone else who wishes to do the same thing.
>
>
> Pat
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: "Pat Ladd"<pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
>
> We benefit from an uncertified world so we can use cheap uncertified
> equipment, and we get what we pay for..>>
>
> You certainly can if you are under the American Experimental banner and
> I envy that.. On the other hand I dont think that anyone in the UK would
> think of setting fire to their machine rather than sell it and accept
> the liability. Not yet anyway
>
>
> Pat
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: JohnDRead(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
>
> It may be worth emailing JabiruUSA to see if the prop/engine combination
> you wish to use has been type certified on any of the Jabiru planes, if so I
> think that would be OK for general use. It would be great to not have to
> spend 40 hours test flying!
>
>
> Regards, John
>
> CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
>
> Cell: 719-494-4567
> Home: 303-648-3261
>
>
> In a message dated 4/23/2012 3:25:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
> pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:
>
> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
>
> Hi,
> in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of engine
> and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe and
> complying with noise rules.
> Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type approved
> might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had been done in
> one instance of course and approved it is then OK for anyone else who wishes
> to do the same thing.
>
> Pat
>
>
> (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
> (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: JohnDRead(at)aol.com
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
>
> And your point is?? There are plenty of so called Type certified engines
>
> that have very poor TBO times.
>
> Regards, John
>
> CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
>
> Cell: 719-494-4567
> Home: 303-648-3261
>
>
> In a message dated 4/23/2012 3:45:02 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
> clive.james(at)uk.bp.com writes:
>
>
> The work needed by a manufacturer to get certification is immense, also
> given what we know about Jabiru engines they could never achieve it as the
> ir
> record is dire.
> We benefit from an uncertified world so we can use cheap uncertified
> equipment, and we get what we pay for.
>
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Lad
> d
> Sent: 23 April 2012 10:24
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
>
>
> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of engine
>
> and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe and
> complying with noise rules.
>
> Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type approved
>
> might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had been done in
>
> one instance of course and approved it is then OK for anyone else who wish
> es
> to do the same thing.
>
>
> Pat
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List)
>
> (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru 3300 "certification"
> From: FLYaDIVE<flyadive(at)gmail.com>
>
> Ya know guys, I just don't understand it. ;-)
> Ya built the plane to fly. So what is the difference if you fly 25 hrs or
> 40 hrs to get it signed off? Tong fully extended at DAR.
> Only problem I would have with it is distance allowed... Maybe you could
> request a larger area to fly in, or start with 25 Hrs and a small area (if
> that is the issue ) and have the DAR sign off on a larger area after you
> reach 25 Hrs. But get the sign off right at the start.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 5:43 PM, wrote:
>
>> **
>> It may be worth emailing JabiruUSA to see if the prop/engine combination
>> you wish to use has been type certified on any of the Jabiru planes, if so
>> I think that would be OK for general use. It would be great to not have to
>> spend 40 hours test flying!
>>
>>
>> Regards, John
>>
>> CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
>>
>> Cell: 719-494-4567
>> Home: 303-648-3261
>>
>> In a message dated 4/23/2012 3:25:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
>> pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:
>>
>> Recently I was asked if the 3300 engine prop combination was
>> "type-certified"... and had no idea what that meant.>>
>>
>> Hi,
>> in the UK it is quite usual to have a type certified combination of engine
>> and prop. This would be the pairing which was certified as safe and
>> complying with noise rules.
>> Changing say from a 2 blade to a 3 blade prop which was not type approved
>> might involve running the noise testing again. Once that had been done in
>> one instance of course and approved it is then OK for anyone else who
>> wishes to do the same thing.
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> *
>>
>> ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Lists.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 04/24/12 |
| From: | John Lawton <wingdingy(at)gmail.com> |
>>>>>>The military is probably the only customer.<<<<<<
On particular aircraft series sold in the USA I am aware of that uses Type
Certified Rotax engines is the Aeromot Ximango motorglider. (pronounced
"she-mongo") The AMT 100 Ximango uses the 80 hp 912, the AMT 200S Super
Ximango uses the 100 hp 912s, and AMT300 Ximango Shark uses the 115 hp
turbo 914. All three airframes are identical except for the engine.
Ximangos are Type Certified in the USA (and 26 other countries), and most
were built with type certified Rotax 9XX engines in them. I was told by the
owner of Aeromot when I visited the factory last year that the only
exceptions were for about 8-10 of the very earliest versions which were
built with the Limbach VW derivative. Aeromot changed to the Rotax early on
after having severe issues with shock cooling on the Limbach. (cracked
heads, cranks and cylinders). To my knowledge there is one Ximango flying
with a Jabiru 3300 engine (IIRC in Australia) and it is one of the earlier
ones that was originally built with the Limbach.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Jaibiru 3300
Super Ximango - Rotax 912s
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: type certified engines |
| From: | "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com> |
The type certificated Rotax 912 engines are built on the same assembly line as
the UL engines but there are some very minor differences, other than the paper-trail.
The type certificated 912 F3 engine in the Diamond Katana I've been maintaining
for several years has two springs on the throttle arm of the carbs instead of
just one. It also has aircraft aluminum fuel tubing from the distribution block
to the two carbs instead of of flexible hose. The return line to the tank also
has braided SS tubing but this last bit is an airframe specific item that
may be peculiar to the Diamond. The other fuel line from the firewall to the mechanical
pump is regular flexible hose as is the hose from the mechanical pump
to the distribution block. The coolant hoses appear to be identical but the
oil hoses, instead of being standard push-on type are made-up hoses with special
end fittings, also Diamond specific. The Katana also has an airframe specific
air shroud over the top of the cylinders which ducts air directly from the
cowl inlet to the cylinders.
Although the vast majority of the parts are identical, when I order replacement
parts I must specify Certificated to get the required paperwork that keeps the
Diamond legal. Of course Lockwood gets a higher price for these paper-trail
parts.
http://sites.google.com/site/riddletr/a&pmechanix
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371769#371769
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: type certified engines |
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
There are many companies around the world and here in the US that use the 912S
certified engine.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371855#371855
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | "ple190" <plge190(at)optusnet.com.au> |
I,m running a 3300 in a Lightning .Main jet 255 needle 290. My main concern is
No 5 cylinder. At best econ (2800 rpm) ie just prior to needle to main changeover
No. 5 will peak around 760 Deg C (1400F) @ 2500ft OAT 10degC Thats about
50-60 deg C above all the others. The numbers are better up higher as expected
All the CHT's are good 120-130 C as are the oil T's & P's and the engine run
well, smooth through entire range
Normal cruise RPM of about 2900 is fine, EGT comes done to low 700's
On descent if i maintain 2900rpm no 5 EGT will again rise to 760-770 C
Should I be concerned ??
I have tried the following to resolve
1.carb tilt
2.intake vane
3.neddle jet increase 285-290
4.Checked for leaks in induction pipes/carby etc
5.swapped Sensors (reading was confirmed)
Any ideas ??
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371932#371932
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
Good Evening plge190,
As a general rule, the actual temperature of the exhaust gas means very
little. What you really want to know is at what point it reaches peak in
relation to when other cylinders reach peak. If they all reach peak at the same
fuel flow, the mixture is perfectly balanced through out every cylinder.
The actual temperature can vary widely based on very small differences in
probe placement. If the cylinders all peak at fairly near the same fuel
flow, forget about it!
Al Hundere. the guru who got us all looking at EGTs, refused to list the
actual temperature as it is not at all pertinent to what we are trying to do.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/27/2012 5:27:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
plge190(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "ple190"
I,m running a 3300 in a Lightning .Main jet 255 needle 290. My main
concern is No 5 cylinder. At best econ (2800 rpm) ie just prior to needle to main
changeover No. 5 will peak around 760 Deg C (1400F) @ 2500ft OAT 10degC
Thats about 50-60 deg C above all the others. The numbers are better up
higher as expected
All the CHT's are good 120-130 C as are the oil T's & P's and the engine
run well, smooth through entire range
Normal cruise RPM of about 2900 is fine, EGT comes done to low 700's
On descent if i maintain 2900rpm no 5 EGT will again rise to 760-770 C
Should I be concerned ??
I have tried the following to resolve
1.carb tilt
2.intake vane
3.neddle jet increase 285-290
4.Checked for leaks in induction pipes/carby etc
5.swapped Sensors (reading was confirmed)
Any ideas ??
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Questions:
1 - Are all the EGT probes the same distance from the exhaust port flange?
2 - Is there any cooling air directed on the other probes, or air blockage
on #5?
3 - Are there any abrupt bends in #5 that do not exist in the other exhaust
headers?
Barry
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 6:26 PM, ple190 wrote:
> >
>
> I,m running a 3300 in a Lightning .Main jet 255 needle 290. My main
> concern is No 5 cylinder. At best econ (2800 rpm) ie just prior to needle
> to main changeover No. 5 will peak around 760 Deg C (1400F) @ 2500ft OAT
> 10degC Thats about 50-60 deg C above all the others. The numbers are
> better up higher as expected
>
> All the CHT's are good 120-130 C as are the oil T's & P's and the engine
> run well, smooth through entire range
>
> Normal cruise RPM of about 2900 is fine, EGT comes done to low 700's
> On descent if i maintain 2900rpm no 5 EGT will again rise to 760-770 C
>
> Should I be concerned ??
>
> I have tried the following to resolve
> 1.carb tilt
> 2.intake vane
> 3.neddle jet increase 285-290
> 4.Checked for leaks in induction pipes/carby etc
> 5.swapped Sensors (reading was confirmed)
>
> Any ideas ??
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371932#371932
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | "ple190" <plge190(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Thanks for the input guys.
Old BOB ---The problem with the Jab and bing carb is no mixture control so you
have no way of knowing if your near peak EGT so I dont know if No 5 if at/near
or above peak EGT?
Barry --All the probs are in the same spot from the port. No 5 was a bit closer
so i moved it to match the others with no change ?
I will check if any cold air is being forced onto the senor
Paul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371949#371949
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | Nick Otterback <nick(at)flylightning.net> |
What SN lightning you have?
You can lean the bing with a little device called a HACman. We have been using
them on our Lightnings since 2008.
Also we do have a 4 way intake splitter installed at the carb throat. That seems
to get the egts all in line.
What prop are you running. We normally run 62fk58s here and use 250 main and 276-280
needles. Also engine SN would help and clean up kit?
Thanks
Nick
Sent from my pocket
On Apr 27, 2012, at 8:22 PM, "ple190" wrote:
>
> Thanks for the input guys.
> Old BOB ---The problem with the Jab and bing carb is no mixture control so you
have no way of knowing if your near peak EGT so I dont know if No 5 if at/near
or above peak EGT?
>
> Barry --All the probs are in the same spot from the port. No 5 was a bit closer
so i moved it to match the others with no change ?
> I will check if any cold air is being forced onto the senor
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371949#371949
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Very good Paul.
I have lots of experience with Lycoming and I know the intake pipes are a
total mismatch. That is one major reason why they can not get even EGT
readings.
If your CHT is fairly uniform then I would not worry too much.
Have you tried a HOTTER spark plug on #5?
Why hotter - Because if the fuel is not completely burning in the cylinder
then it will burn in the exhaust pipe raising the EGT.
What Old Bob says is also VERY true. You do not know if you have reached
Peak EGT or the other cylinders are below #5.
Keep the group posted,
Barry
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:22 PM, ple190 wrote:
> >
>
> Thanks for the input guys.
> Old BOB ---The problem with the Jab and bing carb is no mixture control so
> you have no way of knowing if your near peak EGT so I dont know if No 5 if
> at/near or above peak EGT?
>
> Barry --All the probs are in the same spot from the port. No 5 was a bit
> closer so i moved it to match the others with no change ?
> I will check if any cold air is being forced onto the senor
> Paul
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371949#371949
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Paul:
I had one more idea. You could Port & Polish the intake and exhaust ports
to gain an even flow and you will gain a few more HP too.
Barry
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:22 PM, ple190 wrote:
> >
>
> Thanks for the input guys.
> Old BOB ---The problem with the Jab and bing carb is no mixture control so
> you have no way of knowing if your near peak EGT so I dont know if No 5 if
> at/near or above peak EGT?
>
> Barry --All the probs are in the same spot from the port. No 5 was a bit
> closer so i moved it to match the others with no change ?
> I will check if any cold air is being forced onto the senor
> Paul
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371949#371949
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | "ple190" <plge190(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Thanks Nick and Barry
Nick I have kit 104 with wheel fairing /pants installed and I'm running a 62FK58
prop
The eng is s/no 2246 so hyd lifter but not the latest induction manifold
Also I have a way splitter in the air box outlet which did help and have also
tried one in the smooth pipe thats on the carby intake and it didn't make any
difference.
My understanding of the Hackman is its a leaning device ? so not sure if this will
help ?
Barry do you have a part no for a hotter plug ? its worth a try
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371967#371967
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | "ple190" <plge190(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Nick- do you guys use the throttle extension on the carby ? I am and it limits
the amount of twist you can get.
Also looking at the jets you are using Nick may I'm running too rich and as Barry
said getting a burn in the exhaust pipe? I did increase the needle from 285
to 290 and it didn't help maybe even worse. I guess with the hackman I can lean
out and see what happens. At least I'll know how close to peak I am.
It runs well just don't want to do any damage !!
checked all the plugs the other day and they are all quite black and No. 5 is the
same as the others ?
I miss the good old days of steam gauges--or lack there of
"ignorance is bliss"
Paul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371968#371968
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Paul:
The NGK Spark plug - D9EA is what is supplied with the engine... I
believe...
Below is the web site for NGK and there is a lot of info supplied. One
statement they make is an increase in heat range is a 70 to 100 Deg C
increase.
So, start by reading the chart on the site for Plug Condition (Reading the
plug). Then compare the plugs on the cylinders.
Then pick a heat range that a now educated guess would say should give you
the best results.
Spark Plug Color/Condition:
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp
Heat Range Info:
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/p2.asp?mode=nml
I spent a little time reading the site and there is a lot of info there.
LUCKILY NGK plugs are not expensive so you can experiment.
Oh, BTW, what kind of probe are you using for CHT's, Gasket type under the
spark plug? They read HIGH and when used the plug gasket should not be
used... Now, sometimes the plug gasket cannot be removed. What happens
when two gaskets are used, the plug height changes and the spark location
in the cylinder changes. AND two gaskets do not transfer heat as well as
as one gasket. This causes a plug to run HOTTER. Use any other type of
sensor that does not fit under the plug.
Barry
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 10:57 PM, ple190 wrote:
> >
>
> Thanks Nick and Barry
> Nick I have kit 104 with wheel fairing /pants installed and I'm running a
> 62FK58 prop
> The eng is s/no 2246 so hyd lifter but not the latest induction manifold
> Also I have a way splitter in the air box outlet which did help and have
> also tried one in the smooth pipe thats on the carby intake and it didn't
> make any difference.
> My understanding of the Hackman is its a leaning device ? so not sure if
> this will help ?
>
> Barry do you have a part no for a hotter plug ? its worth a try
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
Peak EGT for any cylinder is the hottest that THAT cylinder reaches.
With a normal Bing you have no way of setting the mixture on the fly,
so the best you can do is to fly the plane while recording each and
every cylinder's EGT, while at the same time recording your fuel
flow. Like Old Bob said, if the cylinders all reach THEIR individual
peaks at very nearly the same fuel flow, that's the best you can do.
After all, you are dealing with a carbureted engine and a pretty
poorly designed intake manifold, and that combination has proven to
not be the best for trying to achieve EGT balance, whether it is the
Jabiru engine or any/most of the other engines out there. That is why
individual-port fuel injection was created.
I moved my EGT probe for my #1 cylinder (2200 Jabiru) 1", and did not
see an appreciable change in EGT readings. Changing/swapping probes
also did not change things.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1254 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Apr 27, 2012, at 9:22 PM, ple190 wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for the input guys.
> Old BOB ---The problem with the Jab and bing carb is no mixture
> control so you have no way of knowing if your near peak EGT so I
> dont know if No 5 if at/near or above peak EGT?
>
> Barry --All the probs are in the same spot from the port. No 5 was
> a bit closer so i moved it to match the others with no change ?
> I will check if any cold air is being forced onto the senor
> Paul
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371949#371949
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GARY BARNETT <barnett6088(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas |
PaulJust a little about a Hacman. I have one in my lightning=2C SN 133=2C
and I live at higher altitudes=2C field elevation 3250 ft=2C so I use it qu
ite a bit when I am going somewhere cross country and above 8=2C000 ft. It
works well and my fuel burn at 10=2C500 averages about 5.4 gal/hour at 285
0 RPM and 120 Knots. It will allow you to check your peak EGT's but if you
do check them do it above 9=2C000 ft to stay safely out of the detonation
area. This is a necessity on a carb. engine do to the wide variation in mi
xture between cylinders. If the Jabiru were fuel injected and had GAMI inj
ectors it would be much easier and simpler. Be sure you enrich the mixture
before you start down. I forgot once (there is no mixture on the normal c
heck list as it is an add on and it is mounted low on the center panel) the
result was rather startling. At reduced power while decending the engine
continues to run smoothly until you close the throttle on downwind at say 7
0knots. At that point the engine just stops cold with no fanfair at all an
d of course at 70-75 knots it will not windmill so the prop stops. The Lig
htning has a great glide ratio so I didn't bother to restart it but I did g
et some strange looks from other pilots who saw me land and restart as I ro
lled onto the taxiway. Gary
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: High EGT cyl 5 -running out of ideas
> From: plge190(at)optusnet.com.au
> Date: Fri=2C 27 Apr 2012 20:27:45 -0700
> To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
>
u>
>
> Nick- do you guys use the throttle extension on the carby ? I am and it l
imits the amount of twist you can get.
>
> Also looking at the jets you are using Nick may I'm running too rich and
as Barry said getting a burn in the exhaust pipe? I did increase the needle
from 285 to 290 and it didn't help maybe even worse. I guess with the hack
man I can lean out and see what happens. At least I'll know how close to pe
ak I am.
> It runs well just don't want to do any damage !!
>
> checked all the plugs the other day and they are all quite black and No.
5 is the same as the others ?
> I miss the good old days of steam gauges--or lack there of
> "ignorance is bliss"
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=371968#371968
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tex Mantell" <wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.com> |
test
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net |
List
I am getting ready to do my 5th. "Conditional" and I am going to change out the
fuel lines again.
I am planning on using the new Parker Super Flex FL line as sold by ACS.
Can anyone recommend this fuel line or any other / better ?? I need one that can
stand up to Ethanol even though I am currently not using it. I am using Marine
( Non-ethanol ) fuel rated at 92 octane and boosting it to 93 octane. It is
working great and I have not noticed any change in performance or temps from
the 100LL.
Also does anyone know of a small hose clamp ( and source ) that will work on the
connection to the carb. The clamps I am using are about 1/2" wide and cover
the bead on the metal line from the carb. I would like to clamp it on the small
tube prior to the bead if possible. Is anyone using the spring type automotive
clamp?
Any info would be appreciated
Bobby ( age 74 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 152 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com> |
Bobby, I'm no expert on Jabiru engines but I have had good luck with Oteker
Ear Clamps.- They are-a single use clamp so you have to have-several
on hand-but they seem to hold much better than worm gear style clamps.
- A side benifit is the "ears" don't stick out as far as compaired to the
screw on a worm gear style clamp.- If your interested in seeing more abo
ut-ear clamps, the EAA has a video about them in their homebuilder hints
section.=0A-=0ADoug M=0ACH-701=0ANW Ontario, Canada=0A =0A=0A____________
____________________=0A From: "BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net" <BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.
net>=0ATo: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, May 21, 2012 1:
52:06 PM=0ASubject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Line=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AList =0AI
am getting ready to do my 5th. "Conditional" and I am going to change out t
he fuel lines again. =0AI am planning on using the new Parker Super Flex FL
line as sold by ACS. =0ACan=0A anyone recommend this fuel line or any othe
r / better ??- I need one =0Athat can stand up to Ethanol even though I a
m currently not using it. I =0Aam using Marine ( Non-ethanol ) fuel rated a
t 92 octane and boosting it =0Ato 93 octane. It is working great and I have
not noticed any change in =0Aperformance or temps from the 100LL.=0AAlso d
oes anyone know of a small=0A hose clamp ( and source ) that will work on t
he connection to the carb.=0A The clamps I am using are about 1/2" wide and
cover the bead on the =0Ametal line from the carb. I would like to clamp i
t on the small tube =0Aprior to the bead if possible. Is anyone using the s
pring type =0Aautomotive clamp?=0A=0AAny info would be appreciated=0A=0ABob
by- ( age 74 )=0AZodiac 601 XL "B"=0AJabiru- 3300- S/N- 1141=0ASens
enich 64" x 51" Prop=0ABing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet=0AStatus - Flyin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
I am using Parker Superflex on my Rans S-6S after Rans issued an AD to
replace all the blue flexline.
Works great for me with AVGAS, Euro95 and Euro98 with and without Ethanol.
On 5/21/2012 8:52 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> List
> I am getting ready to do my 5th. "Conditional" and I am going to
> change out the fuel lines again.
> I am planning on using the new Parker Super Flex FL line as sold by ACS.
> Can anyone recommend this fuel line or any other / better ?? I need
> one that can stand up to Ethanol even though I am currently not using
> it. I am using Marine ( Non-ethanol ) fuel rated at 92 octane and
> boosting it to 93 octane. It is working great and I have not noticed
> any change in performance or temps from the 100LL.
> Also does anyone know of a small hose clamp ( and source ) that will
> work on the connection to the carb. The clamps I am using are about
> 1/2" wide and cover the bead on the metal line from the carb. I would
> like to clamp it on the small tube prior to the bead if possible. Is
> anyone using the spring type automotive clamp?
>
> Any info would be appreciated
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 152 hrs.
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | exhaust system modification |
Here is a shot of my new exhaust system, with Burn's Stainless 4-
into-1 collector and megaphone, if anybody is interested.
Just today I installed heat muffs on both sides to allow for cabin
heat, and carb (TBI) heat. Both work well, with the carb heat side
increasing the inlet air temp from about 90 deg. F., to 175 deg F. in
about 15 seconds. The sound is pretty mellow, too. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1279 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
| From: | jim <jim(at)jabirupacific.com> |
Hey Lynn
Nice Job!
Jim McCormick
Jabiru Pacific LLC
255 W Fallbrook Suite 202B
Fresno, Ca 93722
559-431-1701
jim(at)jabirupacific.com
http://www.jabirupacific.com
On 6/8/12 5:14 PM, "Lynn Matteson" wrote:
> Here is a shot of my new exhaust system, with Burn's Stainless 4-
> into-1 collector and megaphone, if anybody is interested.
>
>
> Just today I installed heat muffs on both sides to allow for cabin
> heat, and carb (TBI) heat. Both work well, with the carb heat side
> increasing the inlet air temp from about 90 deg. F., to 175 deg F. in
> about 15 seconds. The sound is pretty mellow, too. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062
> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
> Status: flying with 1279 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
| From: | "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net> |
Hi Lynn, gotta ask. Any noticeable changes in power??
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375070#375070
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
Thanks, Jim....I'm only responsible for the pipes leading down to the
collector, but overall, I think it looks pretty good.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1279 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Jun 8, 2012, at 9:15 PM, jim wrote:
>
> Hey Lynn
>
> Nice Job!
>
>
> Jim McCormick
> Jabiru Pacific LLC
> 255 W Fallbrook Suite 202B
> Fresno, Ca 93722
> 559-431-1701
> jim(at)jabirupacific.com
> http://www.jabirupacific.com
>
>
> On 6/8/12 5:14 PM, "Lynn Matteson" wrote:
>
>> Here is a shot of my new exhaust system, with Burn's Stainless 4-
>> into-1 collector and megaphone, if anybody is interested.
>>
>>
>> Just today I installed heat muffs on both sides to allow for cabin
>> heat, and carb (TBI) heat. Both work well, with the carb heat side
>> increasing the inlet air temp from about 90 deg. F., to 175 deg F. in
>> about 15 seconds. The sound is pretty mellow, too. : )
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062
>> Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
>> Status: flying with 1279 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
Hi Don-
It's really hard to say whether the power was improved or not, just
because of the very nature of flight....with race cars, you can
always compare lap times, 1/4 mile times, etc., but with the
varieties of flight conditions, I can't tell for sure if any more
power is being produced. My primary reason for doing this job was
inspiration that I got when reading the April 2012 issue of Kitplanes
magazine about making headers for a 540 Lycoming, I think it was.
Also, I had two straight pipes before and it was pretty noisy, and I
wanted to try to get the sound a bit more controlled.
To order the collector, I had to supply Burns with cam timing, valve
lift and size, port size, engine size, primary exhaust diameter,
desired rpm where the engine will run, etc., and they run those specs
through their design-X program and give you the recommended specs for
the collector and the diameter and length of the megaphone and the
reverse cone on the end. The reverse cone is said to extend the
torque range. I have to admit that I did not make the primaries the
exact length that I should have. To do so would have taken too much
time and effort.....I may do so in the future. This will require
making the original #3 and #4 pipe the same length as the original #1
and #2 pipes which are currently a bit longer. This means snaking
some tubing in a roundabout way so that all the primaries will be the
same length, and then the system will be tuned properly, and I'll get
the most benefit from the collector and megaphone. But I'm happy with
the system for now, and when I get bored, I'll fire up the TIG and
modify those #3 and 4 pipes.
Incidentally, I tried "back-purging" for the first time on this
job...stainless steel welding looks like crap without it....and was
amazed at how good the welds that I did came out. Burns has good
information on their website as to how to do this.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1279 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Jun 8, 2012, at 10:20 PM, dons701 wrote:
>
>
> Hi Lynn, gotta ask. Any noticeable changes in power??
>
> --------
> Zenith 701 #76120
> Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375070#375070
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Haas" <checkpoint2(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
Hey Lynn That is a positive move. I extended the pipes from
the two into one junction and added approximately 24 inches of extension
each side. I used motorcycle tabs and springs to support the additional
weight. It is not tuned but it's not too loud, and no cracks in about a 100
hours. I like your idea though. N 380 BH Alpi Pioneer Jabiru 2200.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: exhaust system modification
Hi Don-
It's really hard to say whether the power was improved or not, just
because of the very nature of flight....with race cars, you can
always compare lap times, 1/4 mile times, etc., but with the
varieties of flight conditions, I can't tell for sure if any more
power is being produced. My primary reason for doing this job was
inspiration that I got when reading the April 2012 issue of Kitplanes
magazine about making headers for a 540 Lycoming, I think it was.
Also, I had two straight pipes before and it was pretty noisy, and I
wanted to try to get the sound a bit more controlled.
To order the collector, I had to supply Burns with cam timing, valve
lift and size, port size, engine size, primary exhaust diameter,
desired rpm where the engine will run, etc., and they run those specs
through their design-X program and give you the recommended specs for
the collector and the diameter and length of the megaphone and the
reverse cone on the end. The reverse cone is said to extend the
torque range. I have to admit that I did not make the primaries the
exact length that I should have. To do so would have taken too much
time and effort.....I may do so in the future. This will require
making the original #3 and #4 pipe the same length as the original #1
and #2 pipes which are currently a bit longer. This means snaking
some tubing in a roundabout way so that all the primaries will be the
same length, and then the system will be tuned properly, and I'll get
the most benefit from the collector and megaphone. But I'm happy with
the system for now, and when I get bored, I'll fire up the TIG and
modify those #3 and 4 pipes.
Incidentally, I tried "back-purging" for the first time on this
job...stainless steel welding looks like crap without it....and was
amazed at how good the welds that I did came out. Burns has good
information on their website as to how to do this.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1279 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Jun 8, 2012, at 10:20 PM, dons701 wrote:
>
> Hi Lynn, gotta ask. Any noticeable changes in power??
>
> --------
> Zenith 701 #76120
> Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
> Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375070#375070
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
Thanks, Bob. The other reason that I did not try to "tune" the
primary pipes to the suggested 32" was because of the problem of
wrapping a heat muff around the pair of pipes on each side. If I had
added some "extender bends" to the rear pipes, the heat muff would
have been the size of a 55-gallon barrel. Here's a picture of the
heat muffs prior to welding on the in and out tubes, which are now
finished and installed:
Now that I look at the picture again, the heat muffs will stay the
same regardless of what I do to the Jabiru original rear primary
pipes, as long as I do it before the slip-joint....Duhhh!! (sometimes
I engage the fingers before the brain) Let me start again....the
main reason that I did not make all pipes the same length was to be
able to expedite the job, and get back to flying.
By the way, Burns' Stainless sells the tabs and springs (called
beehive springs, I think) and also sells stainless steel tabs which
sit side-by-side on the to-be-connected pipes and are held together
by a bolt.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1280 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Jun 9, 2012, at 10:44 AM, Bob Haas wrote:
>
>
> Hey Lynn That is a positive move. I extended the
> pipes from the two into one junction and added approximately 24
> inches of extension
> each side. I used motorcycle tabs and springs to support the
> additional weight. It is not tuned but it's not too loud, and no
> cracks in about a 100
> hours. I like your idea though. N 380 BH Alpi Pioneer Jabiru 2200.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
Thanks, Bob. The other reason that I did not try to "tune" the
primary pipes to the suggested 32" was because of the problem of
wrapping a heat muff around the pair of pipes on each side. If I had
added some "extender bends" to the rear pipes, the heat muff would
have been the size of a 55-gallon barrel. Here's a picture of the
heat muffs prior to welding on the in and out tubes, which are now
finished and installed:
Now that I look at the picture again, the heat muffs will stay the
same regardless of what I do to the Jabiru original rear primary
pipes, as long as I do it before the slip-joint....Duhhh!! (sometimes
I engage the fingers before the brain) Let me start again....the
main reason that I did not make all pipes the same length was to be
able to expedite the job, and get back to flying.
By the way, Burns' Stainless sells the tabs and springs (called
beehive springs, I think) and also sells stainless steel tabs which
sit side-by-side on the to-be-connected pipes and are held together
by a bolt.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1280 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Jun 9, 2012, at 10:44 AM, Bob Haas wrote:
>
>
> Hey Lynn That is a positive move. I extended the
> pipes from the two into one junction and added approximately 24
> inches of extension
> each side. I used motorcycle tabs and springs to support the
> additional weight. It is not tuned but it's not too loud, and no
> cracks in about a 100
> hours. I like your idea though. N 380 BH Alpi Pioneer Jabiru 2200.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> |
You should be using a good band clamp on the fuel lines like the Oetiker band clamps.
These are usually the one eared pinch type clamp and easy to use. The serrated
worm drive clamps you can get from the hardware store really aren't acceptable.
At the very least they should be fuel injection clamps which are a screw
style clamp, but can't slip as the have a nut and screw and apply good 360
circumferential pressure around the fitting. These can be puirchased from any
auto supply house.
All fuel lines should be in fire sleeve and a band clamp like a Band-It clamp used
on them. The ends of the fire sleeve can either be dipped in "End Dip" or
can be wrapped with fire sleeve self vulcanizing tape that has a fire rating like
the fire sleeve it self.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375186#375186
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/sany0001_943.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1134_226.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1139_125.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Gaggle:
There is only one worm gear hose clamp that is approved - Uh-oh! APPROVED!
Yes, sometimes one should use approved items; only because they were
tested and have a good history. Well, the item is made by BREEZE EASTERN.
It is a very good quality hose clamp that does not deform on the band and
the wrapping is uniform all around; it is used by the military and GA.
These items are NOT automotive and defiantly NOT Chinese.
Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances!
Barry
On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> You should be using a good band clamp on the fuel lines like the Oetiker
> band clamps. These are usually the one eared pinch type clamp and easy to
> use. The serrated worm drive clamps you can get from the hardware store
> really aren't acceptable. At the very least they should be fuel injection
> clamps which are a screw style clamp, but can't slip as the have a nut and
> screw and apply good 360 circumferential pressure around the fitting. These
> can be puirchased from any auto supply house.
> All fuel lines should be in fire sleeve and a band clamp like a Band-It
> clamp used on them. The ends of the fire sleeve can either be dipped in
> "End Dip" or can be wrapped with fire sleeve self vulcanizing tape that has
> a fire rating like the fire sleeve it self.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375186#375186
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/sany0001_943.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1134_226.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1139_125.jpg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Haas" <checkpoint2(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
Lynn, Makes sense to me. Right now I would have to 15000 ft.
or higher to justify a heat muff. My aircraft only flies in the confines of
the
Florida Peninsula, no heat required. Bob Haas.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: exhaust system modification
Thanks, Bob. The other reason that I did not try to "tune" the
primary pipes to the suggested 32" was because of the problem of
wrapping a heat muff around the pair of pipes on each side. If I had
added some "extender bends" to the rear pipes, the heat muff would
have been the size of a 55-gallon barrel. Here's a picture of the
heat muffs prior to welding on the in and out tubes, which are now
finished and installed:
Now that I look at the picture again, the heat muffs will stay the
same regardless of what I do to the Jabiru original rear primary
pipes, as long as I do it before the slip-joint....Duhhh!! (sometimes
I engage the fingers before the brain) Let me start again....the
main reason that I did not make all pipes the same length was to be
able to expedite the job, and get back to flying.
By the way, Burns' Stainless sells the tabs and springs (called
beehive springs, I think) and also sells stainless steel tabs which
sit side-by-side on the to-be-connected pipes and are held together
by a bolt.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1280 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Jun 9, 2012, at 10:44 AM, Bob Haas wrote:
>
>
> Hey Lynn That is a positive move. I extended the
> pipes from the two into one junction and added approximately 24
> inches of extension
> each side. I used motorcycle tabs and springs to support the
> additional weight. It is not tuned but it's not too loud, and no
> cracks in about a 100
> hours. I like your idea though. N 380 BH Alpi Pioneer Jabiru 2200.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Withdrawal from the group |
| From: | "Float Flyr" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> |
About two weeks ago I had a major fire here. Caused by, so they say, a faulty
extension cord.
For the time of being I am going to withdraw from all my aviation lists within
the next few days.
I hope you all continue to post and fly safely.
Clear skies
Noel
--------
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375540#375540
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exhaust system modification |
I built a pair of muffs for a friends' 3300 in his Waiex. I made the
front "bulkhead" for the muff behind all the factory welds so no
chance of a leaky weld admitting CO into the cabin. Making that
bulkhead was a BITCH! It involved cutting a 3-lobe hole into a piece
of stainless steel, and cutting and fitting, cutting and fitting
until it finally fit. I don't know how well they worked, because
another person suggested that they might be the reason that his
engine...brand new and not broken in yet... was overheating (the jury
is still out on that call), so he took them off. But here are
pictures of what I did.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1285 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Jun 13, 2012, at 8:57 AM, Carl Meek wrote:
>
>
> While are on the topic of heat muffs, does anyone know where I can
> buy one
> (or two!) for a Jabiru 3300?
> I've not found a supplier who has them.
>
> Thanks,
> -Carl.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | VP Props on 3300 |
| From: | Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com> |
I'm doing some research on my Europa with Jabiru 3300 to try and improve
both economy and performance.
Currently my A/C does 118kias at 2850RPM burning 27 litres per hour. (at
sea level)
I think it can be leaned out a bit to improve the economy but we haven't
tried yet.
What are people's thoughts on fitting a VP Prop like Airmaster 332? I'm
wondering if this would help to either improve the cruise speed, or achieve
the same speed with a lower RPM=8A and achieve a shorter takeoff run too.
Am I barking up the wrong tree?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VP Props on 3300 |
| From: | "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Carl, no answer for your question regarding prop, but I know Bud Yerly has been
working on a constant speed propeller for the Jabiru engine. You might drop
him a line.
http://www.customflightcreations.com/
I just started to fly my Europa with the Jabiru engine. I sure hope I get better
than 27 liter per hour. That will kill me money wise. I have had three short
flights and have had to land quickly on each. The first two were because
of overheating. The third flight I think I have the heating partially taken
care of as the engine didn't over heat, but the elevator control did not feel
right so I landed.
Where are you located? I'm in Dixon, CA, USA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375725#375725
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VP Props on 3300 |
| From: | Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com> |
Hi AirEuropa,
I believe my carb needs some tuning to improve the economy, I hope so
anyway!
I will be very interested to hear what you do to solve your overheating
problem. What was the ambient temperature? My aircraft behaves fine with
the temperature at 20 degrees C, but at 25 degrees C it is very marginal,
getting hot at only 1200ft.
I'm in the south of the UK. So it doesn't go above 20 degrees very often!
(Sorry about the metric !)
Regards,
-Carl.
On 15/06/2012 15:40, "AirEupora" wrote:
>
>
>Carl, no answer for your question regarding prop, but I know Bud Yerly
>has been working on a constant speed propeller for the Jabiru engine.
>You might drop him a line.
>
>http://www.customflightcreations.com/
>
>I just started to fly my Europa with the Jabiru engine. I sure hope I
>get better than 27 liter per hour. That will kill me money wise. I have
>had three short flights and have had to land quickly on each. The first
>two were because of overheating. The third flight I think I have the
>heating partially taken care of as the engine didn't over heat, but the
>elevator control did not feel right so I landed.
>
>Where are you located? I'm in Dixon, CA, USA
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375725#375725
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net |
List
I have the Dynon engine monitor in my 601 with the Low Fuel pressure set to 2.0
psi. This past Sat on take off roll the pressure went to 1.8 and the alarm sounded.
I hit the boost pump and elected to keep going when the pressure came up
to 2.3 Psi. At altitude (1500' ) I turned off the boost pump after reducing
power and the pressure stabilized at 2.4 psi. I decide to experiment with throttle
settings and at full power the pressure again went to 1.8 psi. This happened
3 or 4 times with the same result. Normally the pressure stays at 2.3 or 2.4
at full throttle. Taxiing out the pressure is stable at 3.0. As an old plumber
I understand that when the flow increases the pressure will drop somewhat.
My question is two fold. Is this a sign of the pump failing soon?? How long should
the fuel pump last ( hours )? Also what would be a minimum safe pressure
at take off power?
I would like to hear from Pete at Jabiru USA on this issue.
Thank you
Bobby ( age 74 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 153 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
Minimum fuel pressure is 0.5 psi. I would set your alarm to a more
realistic number of .5 to 1.0 psi. Fuel pumps last a long time and have
been relatively trouble free. I think I=99ve only sold a half
dozen in 12 years with 2300 engines out there.
Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
2842 Hwy 231N
Shelbyville, TN 37160
931-680-2800
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 8:28 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pump
List
I have the Dynon engine monitor in my 601 with the Low Fuel pressure set
to 2.0 psi. This past Sat on take off roll the pressure went to 1.8 and
the alarm sounded. I hit the boost pump and elected to keep going when
the pressure came up to 2.3 Psi. At altitude (1500' ) I turned off the
boost pump after reducing power and the pressure stabilized at 2.4 psi.
I decide to experiment with throttle settings and at full power the
pressure again went to 1.8 psi. This happened 3 or 4 times with the same
result. Normally the pressure stays at 2.3 or 2.4 at full throttle.
Taxiing out the pressure is stable at 3.0. As an old plumber I
understand that when the flow increases the pressure will drop somewhat.
My question is two fold. Is this a sign of the pump failing soon?? How
long should the fuel pump last ( hours )? Also what would be a minimum
safe pressure at take off power?
I would like to hear from Pete at Jabiru USA on this issue.
Thank you
Bobby ( age 74 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 153 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "GERALD A. APPLEFELD" <jerryvmd(at)embarqmail.com> |
Bobby,
I would check your fuel filter. Sounds like restricted flow at time of
greatest need (high RPM), only need for minimal flow (idle/cruise)
Jerry
On 6/18/2012 9:28 AM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:
> List
> I have the Dynon engine monitor in my 601 with the Low Fuel pressure
> set to 2.0 psi. This past Sat on take off roll the pressure went to
> 1.8 and the alarm sounded. I hit the boost pump and elected to keep
> going when the pressure came up to 2.3 Psi. At altitude (1500' ) I
> turned off the boost pump after reducing power and the pressure
> stabilized at 2.4 psi. I decide to experiment with throttle settings
> and at full power the pressure again went to 1.8 psi. This happened 3
> or 4 times with the same result. Normally the pressure stays at 2.3 or
> 2.4 at full throttle. Taxiing out the pressure is stable at 3.0. As
> an old plumber I understand that when the flow increases the pressure
> will drop somewhat. My question is two fold. Is this a sign of the
> pump failing soon?? How long should the fuel pump last ( hours )?
> Also what would be a minimum safe pressure at take off power?
>
> I would like to hear from Pete at Jabiru USA on this issue.
> Thank you
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 153 hrs.
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
| From: | Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com> |
I currently run a Europa with Seisenich fixed wood prop on a Jabiru 3300.
It's a little tight getting out of my 450m strip, I wouldn't want a more
coarse prop.
Cruise is 118kts at Sea Level at 2850rpm
I'm wondering whether to spend the money on the air master prop, but I'm a
novice to CS/VP props. I imagine it will give me better power out of the
strip and a higher cruise and/or lower RPM in cruise.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Is it worth the money? What gains will I
reasonably expect?
Regards,
-Carl.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net |
Many Thanks to Pete, Chuck, and Gerald for all the great info.
I usually use the boost pump on take off but for some reason that morning I did
not. I was not in a hurry and was the only one flying off the field at the time.
Engine was cool. I guess I need a check list for my check list.
I am using 92 Oct. Non Ethanol Marine fuel and an automotive clear cleanable 5
micron fuel filter with replaceable elements. It shows every piece of grit or
trash and I have cleaned it only once in 3 yrs and it did not need it then. The
filter is between my pump and carb so if the filter clogs the pressure would
go up instead if down. I will double check my gascolator though. It is in the
belly and is before the boost and engine driven pumps. If the screen is partially
gunked up it would drop the pressure. Draining the quick drain only showed
a few tiny grit particles.
I am going to set my low fuel pressure alarm down and monitor very closely.
Will post any thing unusual.
Thanks again
Bobby ( age 74 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 153 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Bobby:
Isn't the fuel pump part of your fuel supply system and doesn't it
also deserve a clean fuel supply? So why not put the fuel filter as the
first line of defense in the entire system. The only thing you will have
to change your thought process - Clogged Fuel Filter = LOW or NO Fuel
Pressure.
One thing I have learned about human nature is: When it comes to gauges -
NO INDICATION gets one attention. Higher indications require an additional
thinking process which is not normal and confusing and requires MORE Time
in deciphering. Was that pressure 5 PSI or 8 PSI, doesn't pressure
increase when fluid is cold, was that were the needle was at start up,
where was the needle on the last flight, I'm looking at the gauge from an
angle- does that mean it is lower than it really is? Too many questions.
No needle movement = You have a problem = LAND.
Barry
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 3:15 PM, wrote:
>
>
> Many Thanks to Pete, Chuck, and Gerald for all the great info.
> I usually use the boost pump on take off but for some reason that morning
> I did not. I was not in a hurry and was the only one flying off the field
> at the time. Engine was cool. I guess I need a check list for my check
> list.
> I am using 92 Oct. Non Ethanol Marine fuel and an automotive clear
> cleanable 5 micron fuel filter with replaceable elements. It shows every
> piece of grit or trash and I have cleaned it only once in 3 yrs and it did
> not need it then. The filter is between my pump and carb so if the filter
> clogs the pressure would go up instead if down. I will double check my
> gascolator though. It is in the belly and is before the boost and engine
> driven pumps. If the screen is partially gunked up it would drop the
> pressure. Draining the quick drain only showed a few tiny grit particles.
>
> I am going to set my low fuel pressure alarm down and monitor very closely.
>
> Will post any thing unusual.
>
> Thanks again
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 153 hrs.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Bobby:
At full throttle the carb float valve will be open more and longer and as
your plumbing experience denotes - high flow equals lower pressure.
The boost pump should be checked for operation at start-up, during Mag
check, and ON for Takeoff and Landing. Once stabilized in cruse the pump
should be turned off.
Life expectancy of a fuel pump - Well which fuel pump do you have? The
Facet fuel pump will last for years and years. I use one at work for
pumping diesel in a test apparatus and it has performed flawless for
thousands of hours.
Your fuel pressure - Sure sounds acceptable to me. I would not concern
myself with 0.1 and 0.2 PSI of change. The question that comes to my mind
is the accuracy of the gauge, can it be trusted for such a small change and
is it temperature compensating? The minimum safe pressure should be called
out by the engine manufacture as well as the carb manufacture. Example: A
low wing plane with both a electric fuel pump and an engine driven pump
only requires 0.5 PSI as Min. Yet the gauge always shows about 4 to 6 PSI.
What is important is the fuel line size. Volume flow is more important
than pressure. If the engine is being leaned by a restriction in fuel flow
you will never get the power you want. This is a case of Bigger is Better.
Take care you O'l Honey Dipper.
Barry
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:28 AM, wrote:
> List
> I have the Dynon engine monitor in my 601 with the Low Fuel pressure set
> to 2.0 psi. This past Sat on take off roll the pressure went to 1.8 and the
> alarm sounded. I hit the boost pump and elected to keep going when the
> pressure came up to 2.3 Psi. At altitude (1500' ) I turned off the boost
> pump after reducing power and the pressure stabilized at 2.4 psi. I decide
> to experiment with throttle settings and at full power the pressure again
> went to 1.8 psi. This happened 3 or 4 times with the same result. Normally
> the pressure stays at 2.3 or 2.4 at full throttle. Taxiing out the pressure
> is stable at 3.0. As an old plumber I understand that when the flow
> increases the pressure will drop somewhat. My question is two fold. Is this
> a sign of the pump failing soon?? How long should the fuel pump last (
> hours )? Also what would be a minimum safe pressure at take off power?
>
> I would like to hear from Pete at Jabiru USA on this issue.
> Thank you
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 153 hrs.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Carl:
That could be a tight strip. 450 M = 1476 Ft. Have you worked out Vr
Rotation Speed and Vrto = Rejected TakeOff speed? You did not say which
Europa you have. But, isn't the Jabiru a heavier engine than the Rotax?
And they give a takeoff roll of 590 Ft = 180 M which is 1/3 your runway
length. That is 40% of your runway IF you start at the very end (not
counting the length of your plane).
AND - AND - That is on a STANDARD TEMP DAY. Runways get shorter on hot
days. So, YES, I would highly consider a CS prop. And your cruse speed
would go up also. Learning to fly a CS prop is only a few hours of
training and a lot of reading.
Barry
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Carl Meek wrote:
>
> I currently run a Europa with Seisenich fixed wood prop on a Jabiru 3300.
>
> It's a little tight getting out of my 450m strip, I wouldn't want a more
> coarse prop.
> Cruise is 118kts at Sea Level at 2850rpm
>
> I'm wondering whether to spend the money on the air master prop, but I'm a
> novice to CS/VP props. I imagine it will give me better power out of the
> strip and a higher cruise and/or lower RPM in cruise.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts? Is it worth the money? What gains will I
> reasonably expect?
>
> Regards,
> -Carl.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
| From: | Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Barry,
I've been routinely flying out of this strip for over 220 flight hours, so
I'm pretty familiar with it's operation and challenges. It makes accurate
landings essential!
>From a weight perspective =AD Jabiru weighs 81kgs including exhaust and all
peripherals. Rotax weighs 75.5kgs installed =AD so not much difference.
Hot days? In England? We don't have any of those!
Rejected takeoff speed is more of an instant decision. Go to full power.
If anything is wrong, immediately shut down. There is no time for
consideration =AD its pretty much all or nothing.
I am trying to find out some facts before I spend the money of what sort of
improvement I can expect. Any suggestions how I can get figures or
statements from others?
Regards,
-Carl.
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2012 22:58
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300
Carl:
That could be a tight strip. 450 M = 1476 Ft. Have you worked out Vr
Rotation Speed and Vrto = Rejected TakeOff speed? You did not say which
Europa you have. But, isn't the Jabiru a heavier engine than the Rotax?
And they give a takeoff roll of 590 Ft = 180 M which is 1/3 your runway
length. That is 40% of your runway IF you start at the very end (not
counting the length of your plane).
AND - AND - That is on a STANDARD TEMP DAY. Runways get shorter on hot
days. So, YES, I would highly consider a CS prop. And your cruse speed
would go up also. Learning to fly a CS prop is only a few hours of trainin
g
and a lot of reading.
Barry
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Carl Meek wrote:
>
> I currently run a Europa with Seisenich fixed wood prop on a Jabiru 3300.
>
> It's a little tight getting out of my 450m strip, I wouldn't want a more
> coarse prop.
> Cruise is 118kts at Sea Level at 2850rpm
>
> I'm wondering whether to spend the money on the air master prop, but I'm
a
> novice to CS/VP props. I imagine it will give me better power out of the
> strip and a higher cruise and/or lower RPM in cruise.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts? Is it worth the money? What gains will I
> reasonably expect?
>
> Regards,
> -Carl.
>
>
>
> ==========
> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Li
st
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis Borchardt" <lightningaustralia(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
Hi Carl have you had a look at the www.airmasterpropellers.com website
there are a few testamonials from Europa owners. I know a couple of other
guys using this Prop, on other aircraft with very good results.
Regards
Dennis Borchardt
LIGHTNING AIRCRAFT AUSTRALIA
lightningaustralia(at)bigpond.com
<http://www.lightningaircraft.com.au/> www.lightningaircraft.com.au
08/87672145 or 0408813501
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Meek
Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300
Hi Barry,
I've been routinely flying out of this strip for over 220 flight hours, so
I'm pretty familiar with it's operation and challenges. It makes accurate
landings essential!
>From a weight perspective - Jabiru weighs 81kgs including exhaust and all
peripherals. Rotax weighs 75.5kgs installed - so not much difference.
Hot days? In England? We don't have any of those!
Rejected takeoff speed is more of an instant decision. Go to full power.
If anything is wrong, immediately shut down. There is no time for
consideration - its pretty much all or nothing.
I am trying to find out some facts before I spend the money of what sort of
improvement I can expect. Any suggestions how I can get figures or
statements from others?
Regards,
-Carl.
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2012 22:58
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300
Carl:
That could be a tight strip. 450 M = 1476 Ft. Have you worked out Vr
Rotation Speed and Vrto = Rejected TakeOff speed? You did not say which
Europa you have. But, isn't the Jabiru a heavier engine than the Rotax?
And they give a takeoff roll of 590 Ft = 180 M which is 1/3 your runway
length. That is 40% of your runway IF you start at the very end (not
counting the length of your plane).
AND - AND - That is on a STANDARD TEMP DAY. Runways get shorter on hot
days. So, YES, I would highly consider a CS prop. And your cruse speed
would go up also. Learning to fly a CS prop is only a few hours of training
and a lot of reading.
Barry
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Carl Meek wrote:
I currently run a Europa with Seisenich fixed wood prop on a Jabiru 3300.
It's a little tight getting out of my 450m strip, I wouldn't want a more
coarse prop.
Cruise is 118kts at Sea Level at 2850rpm
I'm wondering whether to spend the money on the air master prop, but I'm a
novice to CS/VP props. I imagine it will give me better power out of the
strip and a higher cruise and/or lower RPM in cruise.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Is it worth the money? What gains will I
reasonably expect?
Regards,
-Carl.
==========
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
com
ronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
| From: | Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Dennis,
Yes, I've seen their website, but it would be nice to hear some more
independent testimonials, and specifically some facts and figures :)
Regards,
-Carl.
From: Dennis Borchardt <lightningaustralia(at)bigpond.com>
Date: Wednesday, 20 June 2012 14:05
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300
Hi Carl have you had a look at the www.airmasterpropellers.com website
there are a few testamonials from Europa owners. I know a couple of other
guys using this Prop, on other aircraft with very good results.
Regards
Dennis Borchardt
LIGHTNING AIRCRAFT AUSTRALIA
lightningaustralia(at)bigpond.com
www.lightningaircraft.com.au <http://www.lightningaircraft.com.au/>
08/87672145 or 0408813501
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Mee
k
Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300
Hi Barry,
I've been routinely flying out of this strip for over 220 flight hours, so
I'm pretty familiar with it's operation and challenges. It makes accurate
landings essential!
>From a weight perspective =AD Jabiru weighs 81kgs including exhaust and all
peripherals. Rotax weighs 75.5kgs installed =AD so not much difference.
Hot days? In England? We don't have any of those!
Rejected takeoff speed is more of an instant decision. Go to full power.
If anything is wrong, immediately shut down. There is no time for
consideration =AD its pretty much all or nothing.
I am trying to find out some facts before I spend the money of what sort of
improvement I can expect. Any suggestions how I can get figures or
statements from others?
Regards,
-Carl.
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2012 22:58
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300
Carl:
That could be a tight strip. 450 M = 1476 Ft. Have you worked out Vr
Rotation Speed and Vrto = Rejected TakeOff speed? You did not say which
Europa you have. But, isn't the Jabiru a heavier engine than the Rotax?
And they give a takeoff roll of 590 Ft = 180 M which is 1/3 your runway
length. That is 40% of your runway IF you start at the very end (not
counting the length of your plane).
AND - AND - That is on a STANDARD TEMP DAY. Runways get shorter on hot
days. So, YES, I would highly consider a CS prop. And your cruse speed
would go up also. Learning to fly a CS prop is only a few hours of trainin
g
and a lot of reading.
Barry
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Carl Meek wrote:
I currently run a Europa with Seisenich fixed wood prop on a Jabiru 3300.
It's a little tight getting out of my 450m strip, I wouldn't want a more
coarse prop.
Cruise is 118kts at Sea Level at 2850rpm
I'm wondering whether to spend the money on the air master prop, but I'm a
novice to CS/VP props. I imagine it will give me better power out of the
strip and a higher cruise and/or lower RPM in cruise.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Is it worth the money? What gains will I
reasonably expect?
Regards,
-Carl.
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
com
ronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Carl:
Your last statement has me laughing a bit... "facts"... From pilots ;-) I
find the fact become smudged with the higher cost invested in the plane.
Start with what the prop manufacture states, then subtract 10% from his
claims and you are probably in the ballpark, whoops, cricket field.
Ask the question: What range in pitch does the prop cover. You would want
to go GREATER than the recommended high end Fixed Pitch and I would want it
greater by 2". There is about a 75 to 80% slippage in the prop so when you
work out the theoretical Vs the actual. And that percentage is
guess-factored. You can get an idea by working out your planes IAS
Vs theoretical and figure out the slippage.
And as flat as the lowest fixed pitch for climb. Question: Is this going
to be electrically adjusted?
I don't think you can go wrong with a CS prop... But as you say it is all
dependent on $$$.
Barry
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 6:24 AM, Carl Meek wrote:
> Hi Barry,
>
> I've been routinely flying out of this strip for over 220 flight hours, s
o
> I'm pretty familiar with it's operation and challenges. It makes accurat
e
> landings essential!
>
> From a weight perspective ' Jabiru weighs 81kgs including exhaust and a
ll
> peripherals. Rotax weighs 75.5kgs installed ' so not much difference.
>
> Hot days? In England? We don't have any of those!
>
> Rejected takeoff speed is more of an instant decision. Go to full power.
> If anything is wrong, immediately shut down. There is no time for
> consideration ' its pretty much all or nothing.
>
> I am trying to find out some facts before I spend the money of what sort
> of improvement I can expect. Any suggestions how I can get figures or
> statements from others?
>
> Regards,
> -Carl.
>
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2012 22:58
> To:
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300
>
> Carl:
>
> That could be a tight strip. 450 M = 1476 Ft. Have you worked out Vr
> Rotation Speed and Vrto = Rejected TakeOff speed? You did not say whic
h
> Europa you have. But, isn't the Jabiru a heavier engine than the Rotax?
> And they give a takeoff roll of 590 Ft = 180 M which is 1/3 your runw
ay
> length. That is 40% of your runway IF you start at the very end (not
> counting the length of your plane).
> AND - AND - That is on a STANDARD TEMP DAY. Runways get shorter on hot
> days. So, YES, I would highly consider a CS prop. And your cruse speed
> would go up also. Learning to fly a CS prop is only a few hours of
> training and a lot of reading.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Carl Meek wrote:
>
>>
>> I currently run a Europa with Seisenich fixed wood prop on a Jabiru 3300
.
>>
>> It's a little tight getting out of my 450m strip, I wouldn't want a more
>> coarse prop.
>> Cruise is 118kts at Sea Level at 2850rpm
>>
>> I'm wondering whether to spend the money on the air master prop, but I'm
a
>> novice to CS/VP props. I imagine it will give me better power out of th
e
>> strip and a higher cruise and/or lower RPM in cruise.
>>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts? Is it worth the money? What gains will
I
>> reasonably expect?
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Carl.
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> comronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
Jabiru warns against using CS/VP props with their engine due to moment
of inertia limits (0.3 kgm2). The mechanism is usually too heavy to stay
within limits. If you do get one, make sure you get one with lowest
possible inertia.
On 6/19/2012 2:32 PM, Carl Meek wrote:
>
> I currently run a Europa with Seisenich fixed wood prop on a Jabiru 3300.
>
> It's a little tight getting out of my 450m strip, I wouldn't want a more
> coarse prop.
> Cruise is 118kts at Sea Level at 2850rpm
>
> I'm wondering whether to spend the money on the air master prop, but I'm a
> novice to CS/VP props. I imagine it will give me better power out of the
> strip and a higher cruise and/or lower RPM in cruise.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts? Is it worth the money? What gains will I
> reasonably expect?
>
> Regards,
> -Carl.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
| From: | "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> |
The Jabiru engine has a history of overheating when you put it on an Europa.
Bud Yurly of Custom Creation in Flordia has just completed a project for approval
using a C/S prop. Not sure which one, but it cost 7k USD.
Look his web site up and give him a call.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376145#376145
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airmaster AP420 on Europa 3300 |
| From: | "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> |
http://customflightcreations.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376146#376146
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net |
List
Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut off the
fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out of the gascolator
- which I thought a little odd. When I removed the gascolator it was full
of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but nothing that I could see that
would cause that - only a few tiny grit particles that I picked up with a
white rag. I then removed the gasket and screen and got fuel running down my elbow
from downstream of the gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru
the stainless steel screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and
saw it was about 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little
effect on. I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it
back from the direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen
as the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
clean.
I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both tanks and
then test flew.
My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full throttle
but never below 2.2 psi.
I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that had been
in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year. I saw the
goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was sufficient. It
was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fresh fuel in the left tank
back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I found out what it was.
I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and thought I had it all out. Apparently
it was enough residue to gradually coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see if it returns.
Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
Bobby ( age 74 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 154 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Bobby:
Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop.
Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)?
Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?
How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a few
chemical changes and can clog up a system.
SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow of
fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fuel
line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
fuel flow.
Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK.
- Get a glass jar
- Remove the screen
- Fill the jar with MEK
- Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes
- Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out
- SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK
WILL DESTROY THE PLASTIC/SCREEN
Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think you
would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.
You have a job ahead of you.
Barry
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, wrote:
> List
> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out of
> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the
> gascolator it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but
> nothing that I could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit
> particles that I picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket and
> screen and got fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the
> gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru the stainless steel
> screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and saw it was about
> 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little effect on.
> I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it back from the
> direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen as
> the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
> clean.
> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
> tanks and then test flew.
> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that
> had been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year.
> I saw the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fresh
> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually
> coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see if
> it returns.
>
> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
>
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com> |
Bobby,
What you are describing is similar to what we have seen several times now in
fuel tanks and carburetors from aircraft operated on auto fuel. There seems
to be a stringy, mucus like substance that forms in the auto gas that
eventually winds up in filters, gascolators and carburetors. In two of the
cases the result was a fatal crash and when carbs were sent to us for
evaluation we found this similar sticky, slimy substance in the carb which
prevented proper functioning of the slide.
At my forum last spring at Sun N Fun there was a biochemist in the room who
told us that the substance was a bacterial growth that occurs in the
boundary layer between ethanol (after it absorbs enough water to separate
out of the gas) and the gasoline. I don't know if that is true or not.
We've seen other engines that were operated on auto gas where the internals
were covered with a sticky black substance that looked and smelled like
caramelized sugar. We've seen other aircraft where even non ethanol gas was
dissolving the tank sealant.
At one of our local stations here that advertised non ethanol gas I tested a
sample (after my pickup truck began running poorly) and found the non
ethanol gas to contain about 20% ethanol. The station owners were unaware
and apparently the delivery got screwed up and too much ethanol was added at
the terminal.
The point is that the quality of auto gas at the point of its dispensing
(the pump) is poorly controlled. Also, the effect of auto gas (with today's
ever changing mixture of additives) in aircraft engines has not been
extensively studied. I see some of the results of what seems in my opinion
to be an escalating problem but my opinion is not based on a very large
sample of properly collected data. I've just seen the aftermath of some of
the contamination similar to what Bobby describes.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
Bobby:
Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop.
Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)?
Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?
How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a few
chemical changes and can clog up a system.
SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow of
fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fuel
line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
fuel flow.
Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK.
* Get a glass jar
* Remove the screen
* Fill the jar with MEK
* Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes
* Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out
* SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK WILL DESTROY
THE PLASTIC/SCREEN
Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think you
would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.
You have a job ahead of you.
Barry
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, wrote:
List
Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out of
the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the gascolator
it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but nothing that I
could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit particles that I
picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket and screen and got
fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the gascolator. I wondered why
it did not drain back thru the stainless steel screen. I looked carefully at
the screen in daylight and saw it was about 80% blocked with a transparent
goop that a degreaser had little effect on. I cleaned it further with soap
and water but finally blew it back from the direction of flow and could see
small particles flying off the screen as the air nozzle hit it. I continued
all around the screen until it was clean.
I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
tanks and then test flew.
My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that had
been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year. I saw
the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fresh
fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually coat
the fine strainer in the gascolator.
I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see if
it returns.
Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
Bobby ( age 74 )
Zodiac 601 XL "B"
Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
Status - Flying 154 hrs.
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Very interesting Pete:
I did not think of the bacterial growth issue. I know that kerosene has a
bacterial growth and there is an additive you can purchase at places like
Home Depot to kill the bacteria. I wonder if it will work with MoGas?
Something else to consider... What will be happening to our cars when the
EPA and obama increase the level of ethanol to 15 and 20% in the next five
years?
Barry
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Pete Krotje wrote:
> Bobby,****
>
> ** **
>
> What you are describing is similar to what we have seen several times now
> in fuel tanks and carburetors from aircraft operated on auto fuel. There
> seems to be a stringy, mucus like substance that forms in the auto gas th
at
> eventually winds up in filters, gascolators and carburetors. In two of t
he
> cases the result was a fatal crash and when carbs were sent to us for
> evaluation we found this similar sticky, slimy substance in the carb whic
h
> prevented proper functioning of the slide.****
>
> ** **
>
> At my forum last spring at Sun N Fun there was a biochemist in the room
> who told us that the substance was a bacterial growth that occurs in the
> boundary layer between ethanol (after it absorbs enough water to separate
> out of the gas) and the gasoline. I don=92t know if that is true or not.
***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> We=92ve seen other engines that were operated on auto gas where the
> internals were covered with a sticky black substance that looked and
> smelled like caramelized sugar. We=92ve seen other aircraft where even n
on
> ethanol gas was dissolving the tank sealant.****
>
> ** **
>
> At one of our local stations here that advertised non ethanol gas I teste
d
> a sample (after my pickup truck began running poorly) and found the non
> ethanol gas to contain about 20% ethanol. The station owners were unawar
e
> and apparently the delivery got screwed up and too much ethanol was added
> at the terminal. ****
>
> ** **
>
> The point is that the quality of auto gas at the point of its dispensing
> (the pump) is poorly controlled. Also, the effect of auto gas (with
> today=92s ever changing mixture of additives) in aircraft engines has not
> been extensively studied. I see some of the results of what seems in my
> opinion to be an escalating problem but my opinion is not based on a very
> large sample of properly collected data. I=92ve just seen the aftermath
of
> some of the contamination similar to what Bobby describes.****
>
> ** **
>
> Pete****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2012 6:28 AM
> *To:* jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure****
>
> ** **
>
> Bobby:****
>
> ** **
>
> Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop. ****
>
> Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)? ****
>
> Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?****
>
> How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a fe
w
> chemical changes and can clog up a system.****
>
> SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
> suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow
of
> fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
> you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fu
el
> line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
> fuel flow.****
>
> ** **
>
> Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK. ****
>
> - Get a glass jar****
> - Remove the screen****
> - Fill the jar with MEK****
> - Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes****
> - Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out****
> - SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK
> WILL DESTROY THE PLASTIC/SCREEN****
>
> Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think yo
u
> would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.***
*
>
> ** **
>
> I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
> have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.****
>
> ** **
>
> You have a job ahead of you. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Barry****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, wrote:****
>
> List
> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out
of
> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the
> gascolator it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but
> nothing that I could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit
> particles that I picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket an
d
> screen and got fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the
> gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru the stainless steel
> screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and saw it was about
> 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little effect on
.
> I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it back from th
e
> direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen as
> the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
> clean.
> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
> tanks and then test flew.
> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that
> had been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year
.
> I saw the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fres
h
> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually
> coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see i
f
> it returns.
>
> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
>
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
>
> ****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
ist*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/22/12 |
| From: | James Henderson <jh(at)gulftel.com> |
Good Morning,
Re the gascolator on my 3300 engine. I never see more than a tablespoon or two
drain when I tap my gascolator at preflight. By contrast, my Cessna would truly
flow out. Please advise what I should expect as well as the proper interval
to clean.
Many thanks,,,
Jim Henderson N910CJ in AL.
On Jun 23, 2012, at 2:00 AM, JabiruEngine-List Digest Server wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete JabiruEngine-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the JabiruEngine-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 12-06-22&Archive=JabiruEngine
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 12-06-22&Archive=JabiruEngine
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Fri 06/22/12: 3
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 04:29 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (FLYaDIVE)
> 2. 06:29 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (Pete Krotje)
> 3. 08:26 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (FLYaDIVE)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
>
> Bobby:
>
> Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop.
> Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)?
> Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?
> How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a few
> chemical changes and can clog up a system.
> SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
> suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow of
> fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
> you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fuel
> line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
> fuel flow.
>
> Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK.
>
> - Get a glass jar
> - Remove the screen
> - Fill the jar with MEK
> - Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes
> - Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out
> - SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK
> WILL DESTROY THE PLASTIC/SCREEN
>
> Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think you
> would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
>
> I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
> have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.
>
> You have a job ahead of you.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, wrote:
>
>> List
>> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
>> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out of
>> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the
>> gascolator it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but
>> nothing that I could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit
>> particles that I picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket and
>> screen and got fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the
>> gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru the stainless steel
>> screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and saw it was about
>> 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little effect on.
>> I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it back from the
>> direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen as
>> the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
>> clean.
>> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
>> tanks and then test flew.
>> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
>> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
>> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that
>> had been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year.
>> I saw the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
>> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fresh
>> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
>> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
>> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually
>> coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
>> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see if
>> it returns.
>>
>> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
>>
>>
>> Bobby ( age 74 )
>> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
>> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
>> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
>> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
>> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com>
> Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
>
> Bobby,
>
>
> What you are describing is similar to what we have seen several times now in
> fuel tanks and carburetors from aircraft operated on auto fuel. There seems
> to be a stringy, mucus like substance that forms in the auto gas that
> eventually winds up in filters, gascolators and carburetors. In two of the
> cases the result was a fatal crash and when carbs were sent to us for
> evaluation we found this similar sticky, slimy substance in the carb which
> prevented proper functioning of the slide.
>
>
> At my forum last spring at Sun N Fun there was a biochemist in the room who
> told us that the substance was a bacterial growth that occurs in the
> boundary layer between ethanol (after it absorbs enough water to separate
> out of the gas) and the gasoline. I don't know if that is true or not.
>
>
> We've seen other engines that were operated on auto gas where the internals
> were covered with a sticky black substance that looked and smelled like
> caramelized sugar. We've seen other aircraft where even non ethanol gas was
> dissolving the tank sealant.
>
>
> At one of our local stations here that advertised non ethanol gas I tested a
> sample (after my pickup truck began running poorly) and found the non
> ethanol gas to contain about 20% ethanol. The station owners were unaware
> and apparently the delivery got screwed up and too much ethanol was added at
> the terminal.
>
>
> The point is that the quality of auto gas at the point of its dispensing
> (the pump) is poorly controlled. Also, the effect of auto gas (with today's
> ever changing mixture of additives) in aircraft engines has not been
> extensively studied. I see some of the results of what seems in my opinion
> to be an escalating problem but my opinion is not based on a very large
> sample of properly collected data. I've just seen the aftermath of some of
> the contamination similar to what Bobby describes.
>
>
> Pete
>
>
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 6:28 AM
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
>
>
> Bobby:
>
>
> Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop.
>
> Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)?
>
> Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?
>
> How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a few
> chemical changes and can clog up a system.
>
> SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
> suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow of
> fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
> you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fuel
> line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
> fuel flow.
>
>
> Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK.
>
> * Get a glass jar
> * Remove the screen
> * Fill the jar with MEK
> * Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes
> * Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out
> * SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK WILL DESTROY
> THE PLASTIC/SCREEN
>
> Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think you
> would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
>
>
> I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
> have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.
>
>
> You have a job ahead of you.
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, wrote:
>
> List
> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out of
> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the gascolator
> it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but nothing that I
> could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit particles that I
> picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket and screen and got
> fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the gascolator. I wondered why
> it did not drain back thru the stainless steel screen. I looked carefully at
> the screen in daylight and saw it was about 80% blocked with a transparent
> goop that a degreaser had little effect on. I cleaned it further with soap
> and water but finally blew it back from the direction of flow and could see
> small particles flying off the screen as the air nozzle hit it. I continued
> all around the screen until it was clean.
> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
> tanks and then test flew.
> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that had
> been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year. I saw
> the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fresh
> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually coat
> the fine strainer in the gascolator.
> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see if
> it returns.
>
> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
>
>
> Bobby ( age 74 )
> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
>
> Very interesting Pete:
>
> I did not think of the bacterial growth issue. I know that kerosene has a
> bacterial growth and there is an additive you can purchase at places like
> Home Depot to kill the bacteria. I wonder if it will work with MoGas?
>
> Something else to consider... What will be happening to our cars when the
> EPA and obama increase the level of ethanol to 15 and 20% in the next five
> years?
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Pete Krotje wrote:
>
>> Bobby,****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> What you are describing is similar to what we have seen several times now
>> in fuel tanks and carburetors from aircraft operated on auto fuel. There
>> seems to be a stringy, mucus like substance that forms in the auto gas th
> at
>> eventually winds up in filters, gascolators and carburetors. In two of t
> he
>> cases the result was a fatal crash and when carbs were sent to us for
>> evaluation we found this similar sticky, slimy substance in the carb whic
> h
>> prevented proper functioning of the slide.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> At my forum last spring at Sun N Fun there was a biochemist in the room
>> who told us that the substance was a bacterial growth that occurs in the
>> boundary layer between ethanol (after it absorbs enough water to separate
>> out of the gas) and the gasoline. I don=92t know if that is true or not.
> ***
>> *
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> We=92ve seen other engines that were operated on auto gas where the
>> internals were covered with a sticky black substance that looked and
>> smelled like caramelized sugar. We=92ve seen other aircraft where even n
> on
>> ethanol gas was dissolving the tank sealant.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> At one of our local stations here that advertised non ethanol gas I teste
> d
>> a sample (after my pickup truck began running poorly) and found the non
>> ethanol gas to contain about 20% ethanol. The station owners were unawar
> e
>> and apparently the delivery got screwed up and too much ethanol was added
>> at the terminal. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> The point is that the quality of auto gas at the point of its dispensing
>> (the pump) is poorly controlled. Also, the effect of auto gas (with
>> today=92s ever changing mixture of additives) in aircraft engines has not
>> been extensively studied. I see some of the results of what seems in my
>> opinion to be an escalating problem but my opinion is not based on a very
>> large sample of properly collected data. I=92ve just seen the aftermath
> of
>> some of the contamination similar to what Bobby describes.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Pete****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
>> *Sent:* Friday, June 22, 2012 6:28 AM
>> *To:* jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Bobby:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop. ****
>>
>> Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)? ****
>>
>> Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?****
>>
>> How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel, especially MoGas goes through quite a fe
> w
>> chemical changes and can clog up a system.****
>>
>> SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create a
>> suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flow
> of
>> fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is why
>> you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the fu
> el
>> line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction, you made the
>> fuel flow.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK. ****
>>
>> - Get a glass jar****
>> - Remove the screen****
>> - Fill the jar with MEK****
>> - Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes****
>> - Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out****
>> - SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK
>> WILL DESTROY THE PLASTIC/SCREEN****
>>
>> Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think yo
> u
>> would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.***
> *
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do you
>> have a center tank/header tank. If so, flush that also.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> You have a job ahead of you. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Barry****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM, wrote:****
>>
>> List
>> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I shut
>> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel out
> of
>> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the
>> gascolator it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but
>> nothing that I could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit
>> particles that I picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket an
> d
>> screen and got fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the
>> gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru the stainless steel
>> screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and saw it was about
>> 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little effect on
> ..
>> I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it back from th
> e
>> direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen as
>> the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
>> clean.
>> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
>> tanks and then test flew.
>> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at full
>> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
>> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that
>> had been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year
> ..
>> I saw the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
>> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fres
> h
>> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and I
>> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times and
>> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually
>> coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
>> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see i
> f
>> it returns.
>>
>> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
>>
>>
>> Bobby ( age 74 )
>> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
>> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
>> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
>> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
>> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
>>
>> ****
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-L
> ist*
>>
>> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>>
>> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> **
>>
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>>
>> **
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *
>>
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GARY BARNETT <barnett6088(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/22/12 |
JimIs your aircraft high wing or low wing? If low wing your boost pump sho
uld be on. On my Lightning fuel comes out very fast with the pump on. Gar
y Barnett N335AL
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 06/22
/12
> From: jh(at)gulftel.com
> Date: Sat=2C 23 Jun 2012 11:19:25 -0500
> To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
>
> Good Morning=2C
>
> Re the gascolator on my 3300 engine. I never see more than a tablespoon o
r two drain when I tap my gascolator at preflight. By contrast=2C my Cessna
would truly flow out. Please advise what I should expect as well as the pr
oper interval to clean.
>
> Many thanks=2C=2C=2C
>
> Jim Henderson N910CJ in AL.
>
>
> On Jun 23=2C 2012=2C at 2:00 AM=2C JabiruEngine-List Digest Server wrote:
>
> > *
> >
> > =======================
=
> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> > =======================
=
> >
> > Today's complete JabiruEngine-List Digest can also be found in either o
f the
> > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatt
ed
> > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> > of the JabiruEngine-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text e
ditor
> > such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >
> > HTML Version:
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=
html&Chapter 12-06-22&Archive=JabiruEngine
> >
> > Text Version:
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=
txt&Chapter 12-06-22&Archive=JabiruEngine
> >
> >
> > =======================
========================
> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> > =======================
========================
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > JabiruEngine-List Digest Archive
> > ---
> > Total Messages Posted Fri 06/22/12: 3
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Today's Message Index:
> > ----------------------
> >
> > 1. 04:29 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (FLYaDIVE)
> > 2. 06:29 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (Pete Krotje)
> > 3. 08:26 AM - Re: Fuel Pressure (FLYaDIVE)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 1 __________________________
___________
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
> > From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
> >
> > Bobby:
> >
> > Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop.
> > Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)?
> > Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?
> > How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel=2C especially MoGas goes through quite
a few
> > chemical changes and can clog up a system.
> > SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create
a
> > suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flo
w of
> > fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is w
hy
> > you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the
fuel
> > line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction=2C you made
the
> > fuel flow.
> >
> > Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK.
> >
> > - Get a glass jar
> > - Remove the screen
> > - Fill the jar with MEK
> > - Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes
> > - Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out
> > - SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK
> > WILL DESTROY THE PLASTIC/SCREEN
> >
> > Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think
you
> > would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
> >
> > I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do yo
u
> > have a center tank/header tank. If so=2C flush that also.
> >
> > You have a job ahead of you.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > On Thu=2C Jun 21=2C 2012 at 5:54 PM=2C wrote:
> >
> >> List
> >> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I s
hut
> >> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel o
ut of
> >> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the
> >> gascolator it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but
> >> nothing that I could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit
> >> particles that I picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket
and
> >> screen and got fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the
> >> gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru the stainless st
eel
> >> screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and saw it was ab
out
> >> 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little effect
on.
> >> I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it back from
the
> >> direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen
as
> >> the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
> >> clean.
> >> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on bot
h
> >> tanks and then test flew.
> >> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at fu
ll
> >> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
> >> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel tha
t
> >> had been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a y
ear.
> >> I saw the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that w
as
> >> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of f
resh
> >> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out an
d I
> >> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times a
nd
> >> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to graduall
y
> >> coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
> >> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to se
e if
> >> it returns.
> >>
> >> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
> >>
> >>
> >> Bobby ( age 74 )
> >> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> >> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> >> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> >> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> >> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
> >>
> >>
> >> *
> >>
> >> *
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 2 __________________________
___________
> >
> >
> > From: "Pete Krotje" <pete(at)usjabiru.com>
> > Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
> >
> > Bobby=2C
> >
> >
> > What you are describing is similar to what we have seen several times n
ow in
> > fuel tanks and carburetors from aircraft operated on auto fuel. There
seems
> > to be a stringy=2C mucus like substance that forms in the auto gas that
> > eventually winds up in filters=2C gascolators and carburetors. In two
of the
> > cases the result was a fatal crash and when carbs were sent to us for
> > evaluation we found this similar sticky=2C slimy substance in the carb
which
> > prevented proper functioning of the slide.
> >
> >
> > At my forum last spring at Sun N Fun there was a biochemist in the room
who
> > told us that the substance was a bacterial growth that occurs in the
> > boundary layer between ethanol (after it absorbs enough water to separa
te
> > out of the gas) and the gasoline. I don't know if that is true or not.
> >
> >
> > We've seen other engines that were operated on auto gas where the inter
nals
> > were covered with a sticky black substance that looked and smelled like
> > caramelized sugar. We've seen other aircraft where even non ethanol ga
s was
> > dissolving the tank sealant.
> >
> >
> > At one of our local stations here that advertised non ethanol gas I tes
ted a
> > sample (after my pickup truck began running poorly) and found the non
> > ethanol gas to contain about 20% ethanol. The station owners were unaw
are
> > and apparently the delivery got screwed up and too much ethanol was add
ed at
> > the terminal.
> >
> >
> > The point is that the quality of auto gas at the point of its dispensin
g
> > (the pump) is poorly controlled. Also=2C the effect of auto gas (with
today's
> > ever changing mixture of additives) in aircraft engines has not been
> > extensively studied. I see some of the results of what seems in my opi
nion
> > to be an escalating problem but my opinion is not based on a very large
> > sample of properly collected data. I've just seen the aftermath of som
e of
> > the contamination similar to what Bobby describes.
> >
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >
> > From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYa
DIVE
> > Sent: Friday=2C June 22=2C 2012 6:28 AM
> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
> >
> >
> > Bobby:
> >
> >
> > Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop.
> >
> > Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)?
> >
> > Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?
> >
> > How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel=2C especially MoGas goes through quite
a few
> > chemical changes and can clog up a system.
> >
> > SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create
a
> > suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great flo
w of
> > fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is w
hy
> > you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the
fuel
> > line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction=2C you made
the
> > fuel flow.
> >
> >
> > Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK.
> >
> > * Get a glass jar
> > * Remove the screen
> > * Fill the jar with MEK
> > * Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes
> > * Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out
> > * SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK WILL DESTROY
> > THE PLASTIC/SCREEN
> >
> > Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think
you
> > would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
> >
> >
> > I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do yo
u
> > have a center tank/header tank. If so=2C flush that also.
> >
> >
> > You have a job ahead of you.
> >
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > On Thu=2C Jun 21=2C 2012 at 5:54 PM=2C wrote:
> >
> > List
> > Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I sh
ut
> > off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel ou
t of
> > the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the gasco
lator
> > it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but nothing tha
t I
> > could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit particles that
I
> > picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket and screen and go
t
> > fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the gascolator. I wondere
d why
> > it did not drain back thru the stainless steel screen. I looked careful
ly at
> > the screen in daylight and saw it was about 80% blocked with a transpar
ent
> > goop that a degreaser had little effect on. I cleaned it further with s
oap
> > and water but finally blew it back from the direction of flow and could
see
> > small particles flying off the screen as the air nozzle hit it. I conti
nued
> > all around the screen until it was clean.
> > I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on both
> > tanks and then test flew.
> > My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at ful
l
> > throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
> > I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel that
had
> > been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a year.
I saw
> > the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that was
> > sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of fr
esh
> > fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out and
I
> > found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times an
d
> > thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to gradually
coat
> > the fine strainer in the gascolator.
> > I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to see
if
> > it returns.
> >
> > Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
> >
> >
> > Bobby ( age 74 )
> > Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> > Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> > Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> > Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> > Status - Flying 154 hrs.
> >
> >
> > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-
List
> > tp://forums.matronics.com
> > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 3 __________________________
___________
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure
> > From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
> >
> > Very interesting Pete:
> >
> > I did not think of the bacterial growth issue. I know that kerosene ha
s a
> > bacterial growth and there is an additive you can purchase at places li
ke
> > Home Depot to kill the bacteria. I wonder if it will work with MoGas?
> >
> > Something else to consider... What will be happening to our cars when t
he
> > EPA and obama increase the level of ethanol to 15 and 20% in the next f
ive
> > years?
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> > On Fri=2C Jun 22=2C 2012 at 9:28 AM=2C Pete Krotje
wrote:
> >
> >> Bobby=2C****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> What you are describing is similar to what we have seen several times
now
> >> in fuel tanks and carburetors from aircraft operated on auto fuel. Th
ere
> >> seems to be a stringy=2C mucus like substance that forms in the auto g
as th
> > at
> >> eventually winds up in filters=2C gascolators and carburetors. In two
of t
> > he
> >> cases the result was a fatal crash and when carbs were sent to us for
> >> evaluation we found this similar sticky=2C slimy substance in the carb
whic
> > h
> >> prevented proper functioning of the slide.****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> At my forum last spring at Sun N Fun there was a biochemist in the roo
m
> >> who told us that the substance was a bacterial growth that occurs in t
he
> >> boundary layer between ethanol (after it absorbs enough water to separ
ate
> >> out of the gas) and the gasoline. I don=92t know if that is true or
not.
> > ***
> >> *
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> We=92ve seen other engines that were operated on auto gas where the
> >> internals were covered with a sticky black substance that looked and
> >> smelled like caramelized sugar. We=92ve seen other aircraft where e
ven n
> > on
> >> ethanol gas was dissolving the tank sealant.****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> At one of our local stations here that advertised non ethanol gas I te
ste
> > d
> >> a sample (after my pickup truck began running poorly) and found the no
n
> >> ethanol gas to contain about 20% ethanol. The station owners were una
war
> > e
> >> and apparently the delivery got screwed up and too much ethanol was ad
ded
> >> at the terminal. ****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> The point is that the quality of auto gas at the point of its dispensi
ng
> >> (the pump) is poorly controlled. Also=2C the effect of auto gas (with
> >> today=92s ever changing mixture of additives) in aircraft engines ha
s not
> >> been extensively studied. I see some of the results of what seems in
my
> >> opinion to be an escalating problem but my opinion is not based on a v
ery
> >> large sample of properly collected data. I=92ve just seen the after
math
> > of
> >> some of the contamination similar to what Bobby describes.****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> Pete****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> *From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> >> owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> >> *Sent:* Friday=2C June 22=2C 2012 6:28 AM
> >> *To:* jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
> >> *Subject:* Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fuel Pressure****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> Bobby:****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> Ethanol does NOT make a transparent goop. ****
> >>
> >> Have you ever used or sealed your tanks with Silicone (RTV)? ****
> >>
> >> Have you ever used Teflon Tape on ANY fittings?****
> >>
> >> How OLD was the fuel? Old fuel=2C especially MoGas goes through quite
a fe
> > w
> >> chemical changes and can clog up a system.****
> >>
> >> SHUTTING OFF the fuel valve WILL cut OFF the fuel flow and will create
a
> >> suction in the system so there should NOT be any free flow or great fl
ow
> > of
> >> fuel. It is doing what a shout off valve is designed to do. THAT is
why
> >> you only got a two tablespoons of gas. Of course when you cracked the
fu
> > el
> >> line the fuel ran down your are - - -You broke the suction=2C you made
the
> >> fuel flow.****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> Fuel residue a.k.a. varnish can be removed with MEK. ****
> >>
> >> - Get a glass jar****
> >> - Remove the screen****
> >> - Fill the jar with MEK****
> >> - Soak the screen in the MEK for 5 minutes****
> >> - Blow out the screen with air - From the inside out****
> >> - SPECIAL NOTE - DOES THE SCREEN HAVE PLASTIC? OF SO MEK
> >> WILL DESTROY THE PLASTIC/SCREEN****
> >>
> >> Now - If you have this goop in the gascolator screen - Don't you think
yo
> > u
> >> would also have this goop INSIDE the carburetor!!! Don't Fly - CLEAN.
***
> > *
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> I would also FLUSH - BOTH - Tanks - And replace with fresh gas. Do y
ou
> >> have a center tank/header tank. If so=2C flush that also.****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> You have a job ahead of you. ****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> Barry****
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> On Thu=2C Jun 21=2C 2012 at 5:54 PM=2C wrote:
****
> >>
> >> List
> >> Today I determined to find out what caused the fuel pressure drop. I s
hut
> >> off the fuel valve and drained only about 2 tablespoons full of fuel o
ut
> > of
> >> the gascolator - which I thought a little odd. When I removed the
> >> gascolator it was full of fuel. The quick drain was partly plugged but
> >> nothing that I could see that would cause that - only a few tiny grit
> >> particles that I picked up with a white rag. I then removed the gasket
an
> > d
> >> screen and got fuel running down my elbow from downstream of the
> >> gascolator. I wondered why it did not drain back thru the stainless st
eel
> >> screen. I looked carefully at the screen in daylight and saw it was ab
out
> >> 80% blocked with a transparent goop that a degreaser had little effect
on
> > ..
> >> I cleaned it further with soap and water but finally blew it back from
th
> > e
> >> direction of flow and could see small particles flying off the screen
as
> >> the air nozzle hit it. I continued all around the screen until it was
> >> clean.
> >> I re-installed the screen and gascolator and ran up really good on bot
h
> >> tanks and then test flew.
> >> My fuel pressure was back where it was and only dropped a little at fu
ll
> >> throttle but never below 2.2 psi.
> >> I believe the residue to be a left over of evaporated Ethanol fuel tha
t
> >> had been in my grandson's 5 gal. gas can for his Jon boat for over a y
ear
> > ..
> >> I saw the goop in the bottom of the can and rinsed it. Thinking that w
as
> >> sufficient. It was not. My engine failed after putting the 5 gal. of f
res
> > h
> >> fuel in the left tank back in December. Luckily it quit on taxi out an
d I
> >> found out what it was. I cleaned and drained the tanks several times a
nd
> >> thought I had it all out. Apparently it was enough residue to graduall
y
> >> coat the fine strainer in the gascolator.
> >> I will watch closely and clean regularly for the next few months to se
e i
> > f
> >> it returns.
> >>
> >> Thanks Again for all the helpful inputs
> >>
> >>
> >> Bobby ( age 74 )
> >> Zodiac 601 XL "B"
> >> Jabiru 3300 S/N 1141
> >> Sensenich 64" x 51" Prop
> >> Bing Carb 260 Main & 285 Needle Jet
> >> Status - Flying 154 hrs.
> >>
> >> ****
> >>
> >> * *
> >>
> >> * *
> >>
> >> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngin
e-L
> > ist*
> >>
> >> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
> >>
> >> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> >>
> >> * *
> >>
> >> ** **
> >>
> >> * *
> >>
> >> * *
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List*
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> >>
> >> **
> >>
> >> * *
> >>
> >> *
> >>
> > ==========
> > ==========
> > ==========
> > ==========
> >> *
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net |
Thanks to Pete and Barry for the insights.
My tanks are aluminum with teflon / braided S.S. hoses to the fuselage and #6 aluminum
tubing with AN fittings to the firewall. I am using 1/4" i.d. ethanol
approved tubing from the firewall to the carb. No sealants were used in the tanks
except at he threads and no teflon tape has ever been used. The plane has
been flying since 2007 without any fuel problems until I introduced the junk in
the plastic gas can.
Really old gasoline will turn to a varnish like transparent paste and if left to
dry will become nearly solid. Also it develops a smell that can attributed to
it. I have traced this substance back to the 5 gal. plastic can - trace amounts
were still in it.
I flew nearly an hour today with no problems. After sitting for about 30 minutes
in the heat at another airport I was visiting the elec. boost pump cavatated
but after the engine started the pressure came up to normal.
I hope I have seen the last of that problem but I will be very cautious and check
a lot closer form now on.
Thanks again for all who contributed to helping me find the problem.
Bobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure |
| From: | "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com> |
Bobby,
Let me throw in an observation I had on my 601 during early flight testing that
had a similar symptom which may or may not have anything to do with your experience.
My ACS gascolator came with the standard 120 micron mesh SS screen (P/N
10543-1). In the 2008 timeframe, ACS introduced a smaller 74 micron mesh screen
(P/N 05-03436). Thinking that smaller was better from a filtration standpoint,
I bought a 74 micron screen. Up to now I had no fuel delivery issues
whatsoever and was only using fresh 100LL. I put the new screen in and all of
a sudden I could not perform the standard mag check run-up unless the boost pump
was on. Without the pump, the engine seemed like it was running out of fuel.
I sumped the gaslocator and only a small amount of fuel would come out, but
when I pulled the screen, I got doused with all the fuel sitting on top of
it. Hmmm, sounds kind of like your symptom. I pulled the small mesh screen and,
as expected with only 15 minutes of run time, it was clean. I put the original
larger mesh screen back in and have been flying with it problem-free for
almost 4 years now. I think the 74 micron screen is just too small for the head
pressure in a low wing airplane unless you plan to run boost pumps all the
time. I cut it up and threw it in the trash.
Just something to consider depending on which gascolater and screen mesh size you
may be using.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 200+ hours now
Next project under construction: Aircamper
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376583#376583
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Eubanks" <leubanks(at)sunflower.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure |
David
I believe that the filter screen should actually trap any contaminants
inside the bowl area. Is it possible that it is plumbed incorrect? The bowl
should have been the area full of fuel instead of fuel being trapped before
it gets to the bowl.
Larry Eubanks
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 2:00 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Fuel Pressure
>
>
> Bobby,
>
> Let me throw in an observation I had on my 601 during early flight testing
> that had a similar symptom which may or may not have anything to do with
> your experience. My ACS gascolator came with the standard 120 micron mesh
> SS screen (P/N 10543-1). In the 2008 timeframe, ACS introduced a smaller
> 74 micron mesh screen (P/N 05-03436). Thinking that smaller was better
> from a filtration standpoint, I bought a 74 micron screen. Up to now I
> had no fuel delivery issues whatsoever and was only using fresh 100LL. I
> put the new screen in and all of a sudden I could not perform the standard
> mag check run-up unless the boost pump was on. Without the pump, the
> engine seemed like it was running out of fuel. I sumped the gaslocator
> and only a small amount of fuel would come out, but when I pulled the
> screen, I got doused with all the fuel sitting on top of it. Hmmm, sounds
> kind of like your symptom. I pulled the small mesh screen and, as
> expected with only 15 minutes of run time, it!
> was clean. I put the original larger mesh screen back in and have been
> flying with it problem-free for almost 4 years now. I think the 74 micron
> screen is just too small for the head pressure in a low wing airplane
> unless you plan to run boost pumps all the time. I cut it up and threw it
> in the trash.
>
> Just something to consider depending on which gascolater and screen mesh
> size you may be using.
>
> Good luck,
>
> --------
> David Gallagher
> Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 200+ hours now
> Next project under construction: Aircamper
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376583#376583
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hello David:
Sure sounds like a fuel restriction problem.
But, maybe it was NOT caused by the finer mess; maybe the finer mess was
the last straw. There is a FAR requirement for Gravity Feed Systems for
the size of the fuel tubing. If there is a Mechanical Fuel Pump that
requirement goes away since the pump is on when ever the engine is running.
Boost pumps don't count. So, what size are the fuel lines? Next question
- Work out the surface area of the screen Vs micron hole size. If that
is under size as well - Yup - Fuel restriction.
Barry
On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 3:00 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
> david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
>
> Bobby,
>
> Let me throw in an observation I had on my 601 during early flight testing
> that had a similar symptom which may or may not have anything to do with
> your experience. My ACS gascolator came with the standard 120 micron mesh
> SS screen (P/N 10543-1). In the 2008 timeframe, ACS introduced a smaller
> 74 micron mesh screen (P/N 05-03436). Thinking that smaller was better
> from a filtration standpoint, I bought a 74 micron screen. Up to now I had
> no fuel delivery issues whatsoever and was only using fresh 100LL. I put
> the new screen in and all of a sudden I could not perform the standard mag
> check run-up unless the boost pump was on. Without the pump, the engine
> seemed like it was running out of fuel. I sumped the gaslocator and only a
> small amount of fuel would come out, but when I pulled the screen, I got
> doused with all the fuel sitting on top of it. Hmmm, sounds kind of like
> your symptom. I pulled the small mesh screen and, as expected with only 15
> minutes of run time, it!
> was clean. I put the original larger mesh screen back in and have been
> flying with it problem-free for almost 4 years now. I think the 74 micron
> screen is just too small for the head pressure in a low wing airplane
> unless you plan to run boost pumps all the time. I cut it up and threw it
> in the trash.
>
> Just something to consider depending on which gascolater and screen mesh
> size you may be using.
>
> Good luck,
>
> --------
> David Gallagher
> Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 200+ hours now
> Next project under construction: Aircamper
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376583#376583
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alvie Johnson <alvie102(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure |
Reply to jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com=0A=0A=0A>_________________________
_______=0A> From: DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>=0A>To: jabiruengine
-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 1:00 PM=0A>Subject: Jab
iruEngine-List: Re: Fuel Pressure=0A> =0A>--> JabiruEngine-List message pos
ted by: "DaveG601XL" =0A>=0A>Bobby,=0A>=0A>Let me
throw in an observation I had on my 601 during early flight testing that h
ad a similar symptom which may or may not have anything to do with your exp
erience.- My ACS gascolator came with the standard 120 micron mesh SS scr
een (P/N 10543-1).- In the 2008 timeframe, ACS introduced a smaller 74 mi
cron mesh screen (P/N 05-03436).- Thinking that smaller was better from a
filtration standpoint, I bought a 74 micron screen.- Up to now I had no
fuel delivery issues whatsoever and was only using fresh 100LL.- I put th
e new screen in and all of a sudden I could not perform the standard mag ch
eck run-up unless the boost pump was on.- Without the pump, the engine se
emed like it was running out of fuel.- I sumped the gaslocator and only a
small amount of fuel would come out, but when I pulled the screen, I got d
oused with all the fuel sitting on top of it.- Hmmm, sounds kind of like
your symptom.- I pulled the small mesh screen and, as expected with
only 15 minutes of run time, it!=0A>- was clean.- I put the original l
arger mesh screen back in and have been flying with it problem-free for alm
ost 4 years now.- I think the 74 micron screen is just too small for the
head pressure in a low wing airplane unless you plan to run boost pumps all
the time.- I cut it up and threw it in the trash.=0A>=0A>Just something
to consider depending on which gascolater and screen mesh size you may be u
sing.=0A>=0A>Good luck,=0A>=0A>--------=0A>David Gallagher=0A>Zodiac 601 XL
-B: flying, 200+ hours now=0A>Next project under construction: Aircamper=0A
>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronic
=========================0A
=========================0A
=========================0A
>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | delawarebox(at)att.net |
Please delete this address ( delawarebox(at)att.net) from your contacts. For Ron,
please use skyjeep701(at)gmail.com and for Delaware Wood Products use delawarewood(at)gmail.com
Thank you,
Ron Waechter
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | MGL Odyessey connected to Jabiru 3300 |
| From: | "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Just reviewing my flight log on my first -through fourth flight and found a couple
of things that I had set up wrong in the MGL Odysseys. My oil pressure looks
low on the black box print out and I'm thinking that I have the wrong sensor
in the program. Does anybody know the type of sensor that the Jabiru 3300L
has installed. I only have a single outlet (wire blade)
I can put the following types into the program:
1. automotive: resistive; 200 ohm or 400 ohms
2. linear, voltage 0.5- 4.5v
3. Rotax 4- 30mA
4. Linear, voltage 0-5v
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=376948#376948
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Anyone installed Fuel Injection on a 3300A |
| From: | "Thruster87" <alania(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Interested in hearing from anyone that has installed fuel injection on a Jab 3300.
Like the SDS em kits.Seems there are not too many current discussion on the
web. Cheers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378068#378068
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Claire and Gary Eady <gary_eady(at)xtra.co.nz> |
Claire and Gary are currently out of town until Monday 13th August but will be
checking their email periodically. There may be some delay in responding.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey J Paris" <jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com> |
| Subject: | CHT temp and ram air duct question |
Dear List,
=C2-
I am runnning a Jab 3300 on a Zenith CH601XLB experimental that I built.
=C2-The last few years I have been doing my best to get control and manage
the cooling of my CHT's. =C2-I'm am getting real close to pretty good tem
ps with the addition of some baffles in my ram air ducts. =C2-Before the b
affles my #4 cylinder ran hottest, now that I have that under control my #5
and #6 cylinders are running as hottest almost neck to neck. =C2-Without g
oing into great detail, I am wondering what is the best action to take with
what I assume will be to trim the inner ram airduct baffling to increase air
flow to these cylinders without hurting the airflow on cylindeers #3 & =C2
-#4.
=C2-
Do I work front to back, or back to front and how much do I take off? =C2
-Thanks for your time and consideration.
=C2-
Jeff Paris 2 Jabs one in a Zentith the other in a Europa. =C2-Rochester NY
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CHT temp and ram air duct question |
Hi Jeff,
Just for fun you might try increasing the height of the low baffle by
1/2 inch or even 1 inch in front of cyl #1 and/or #2. I know this makes
no sense, but it worked for me on a similar setup. I had no problems at
all with 2/4/6 and a nearly never ending battle with 1/3/5.
Paul
Camas, WA
Zodiac XL, Jab 3300 nearing end of phase I testing
On 7/12/2012 2:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris wrote:
> Dear List,
> I am runnning a Jab 3300 on a Zenith CH601XLB experimental that I
> built. The last few years I have been doing my best to get control
> and manage the cooling of my CHT's. I'm am getting real close to
> pretty good temps with the addition of some baffles in my ram air
> ducts. Before the baffles my #4 cylinder ran hottest, now that I have
> that under control my #5 and #6 cylinders are running as hottest
> almost neck to neck. Without going into great detail, I am wondering
> what is the best action to take with what I assume will be to trim the
> inner ram airduct baffling to increase airflow to these cylinders
> without hurting the airflow on cylindeers #3 & #4.
> Do I work front to back, or back to front and how much do I take off?
> Thanks for your time and consideration.
> Jeff Paris 2 Jabs one in a Zentith the other in a Europa. Rochester NY
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What is the relationship between |
| From: | "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> |
High cylinder temps and propeller pitch?
Today, I got the first good flight out of my Europa with the Jabiru 3300L. This
is the seventh flight and I only have two hours on the engine. I have been
chasing high cylinders temp and high oil temps. I'm getting close to having the
oil temps under control. Most of it is getting the opening around the oil
cooler correct. Right now 4 & 6 are running high CHT at full power. I'm only
getting about two to three minutes of operation at these power settings. The
RPM is starting to come up and I got 2900 for almost a minute.
EGT's are within 50 degrees of each other. I have a stock needle and seat. Not
sure what the numbers are.
The reason I'm asking is I had a Navion and the prop company pitch it too high
and my CHT were to high. Once I had it re-pitched the CHT came down and the oil
temp came down.
I'm thinking I should do the same for this engine. Decrease the pitch on the ground
adjustable prop.
Does anybody have any ideals or suggestion?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378164#378164
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CHT temp and ram air duct question |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Jeffery:
Years back I was working on an RV6 that had CHT issues. The baffling was
perfect and I could not get the Temps down. Then I looked at a different
RV6 and I notice - WOW - Did I notice something different with the inlet
ducts. The builder FAILED to install two small pieces of fiberglass that
should have been glassed to the TOP of the cowling right behind the inlet.
They were as wide as the inlet - they moved back about 3" and then
smoothly curved up to the top of the cowl. This sounds confusing, but
think of it like an inverted wing attached to the INSIDE - Upper cowl. I
found the parts in his junk box - Installed them and WOW! The temps
dropped like crazy.
You could go to the RV website and order the fiberglass and give it a try.
Barry
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I am runnning a Jab 3300 on a Zenith CH601XLB experimental that I built.
> The last few years I have been doing my best to get control and manage the
> cooling of my CHT's. I'm am getting real close to pretty good temps with
> the addition of some baffles in my ram air ducts. Before the baffles my #4
> cylinder ran hottest, now that I have that under control my #5 and #6
> cylinders are running as hottest almost neck to neck. Without going into
> great detail, I am wondering what is the best action to take with what I
> assume will be to trim the inner ram airduct baffling to increase airflow
> to these cylinders without hurting the airflow on cylindeers #3 & #4.
>
> Do I work front to back, or back to front and how much do I take off?
> Thanks for your time and consideration.
>
> Jeff Paris 2 Jabs one in a Zentith the other in a Europa. Rochester NY
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What is the relationship between |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Hello Mystery Man:
It takes HP to swing a prop. The three factors of a prop are:
1 - Weight
2 - Diameter and
3 - Pitch
Increase any one of these and more HP is required to maintain the SAME RPM.
Increase any two at the same time you you may not get off the ground.
A higher Pitch requires Higher HP to achieve the same RPM.
Questions:
1 - Is your prop what is recommended for your plane?
2 - Is the pitch on the prop what is recommended for your plane?
3 - Is your engine broken in yet? <-- Two hours - Nope!
Since the engine is NOT broken in as yet and since you have a Ground
Adjustable prop - I would set a low pitch for the break-in time.
Also what was the DA for the day you were flying?
CRAZY question - Did you assemble and install the the prop correctly?
I ask this because I saw one plane where the prop was installed BACKWARDS!!!
Now to address the oil cooler. Without seeing the oil cooler system it
is impossible to comment on. But, here is a little trick that returns
great advantages - Seal off the edges of the oil cooler with RTV so no air
leaks around the cooler. You want o force as much air through the cooler
as you can. Air like water will take the path of least resistance. Any
cooler is a path of high resistance - So keep the air FORCED and flowing
through it.
Barry
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:01 PM, AirEupora wrote:
> AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
> High cylinder temps and propeller pitch?
>
> Today, I got the first good flight out of my Europa with the Jabiru 3300L.
> This is the seventh flight and I only have two hours on the engine. I
> have been chasing high cylinders temp and high oil temps. I'm getting
> close to having the oil temps under control. Most of it is getting the
> opening around the oil cooler correct. Right now 4 & 6 are running high
> CHT at full power. I'm only getting about two to three minutes of
> operation at these power settings. The RPM is starting to come up and I
> got 2900 for almost a minute.
>
> EGT's are within 50 degrees of each other. I have a stock needle and
> seat. Not sure what the numbers are.
>
> The reason I'm asking is I had a Navion and the prop company pitch it too
> high and my CHT were to high. Once I had it re-pitched the CHT came down
> and the oil temp came down.
>
> I'm thinking I should do the same for this engine. Decrease the pitch on
> the ground adjustable prop.
>
> Does anybody have any ideals or suggestion?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378164#378164
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Hubelbank <mhubel(at)nemon.com> |
| Subject: | Re: CHT temp and ram air duct question |
Barry,
Although in the wonderful and seemingly unpredictable world of
Jabiru cooling, I have improved cooling of my 3300 by removing baffles,
this sounds interesting, I could not find the picture or part, could you
post a link.
Mark Hubelbank
Ch601XL-B
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich adj prop
Rotec TBI-40-3
240 Hours airframe
On 07/13/2012 4:43 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Jeffery:
>
> Years back I was working on an RV6 that had CHT issues.
> The baffling was perfect and I could not get the Temps down. Then I
> looked at a different RV6 and I notice - WOW - Did I notice something
> different with the inlet ducts. The builder FAILED to install two
> small pieces of fiberglass that should have been glassed to the TOP of
> the cowling right behind the inlet. They were as wide as the inlet -
> they moved back about 3" and then smoothly curved up to the top of the
> cowl. This sounds confusing, but think of it like an inverted wing
> attached to the INSIDE - Upper cowl. I found the parts in his junk
> box - Installed them and WOW! The temps dropped like crazy.
>
> You could go to the RV website and order the fiberglass and give it a try.
>
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris
> > wrote:
>
> Dear List,
> I am runnning a Jab 3300 on a Zenith CH601XLB experimental that I
> built. The last few years I have been doing my best to get
> control and manage the cooling of my CHT's. I'm am getting real
> close to pretty good temps with the addition of some baffles in my
> ram air ducts. Before the baffles my #4 cylinder ran hottest, now
> that I have that under control my #5 and #6 cylinders are running
> as hottest almost neck to neck. Without going into great detail,
> I am wondering what is the best action to take with what I assume
> will be to trim the inner ram airduct baffling to increase airflow
> to these cylinders without hurting the airflow on cylindeers #3 & #4.
> Do I work front to back, or back to front and how much do I take
> off? Thanks for your time and consideration.
> Jeff Paris 2 Jabs one in a Zentith the other in a Europa.
> Rochester NY
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CHT temp and ram air duct question |
| From: | "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com> |
Jeff,
What kinds of CHT's are you seeing between climb and cruise? I can understand
why #5 and #6 are the hottest, but are they too hot? No sense in chasing something
if it is in limits.
I guess I was lucky that my CHT's were never really that close to or over the limits
during phase 1. After break-in, when they dropped off a bit, I did some
tweaking to get even more margin. Then I stopped playing with it and concentrated
on my EGT for a while. Now I just fly and review my EMS data every month
or so.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 220+ hours now
Next project under construction: Finish my father's Aircamper
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378203#378203
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CHT temp and ram air duct question |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Mark:
I could not find a direct link or pictures to the internal cowl material,
but here is the link to Van's. Write them an email or call them. It is
the internal curved part that goes directly over the cowl inlets. They
will know what you are talking about.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi
Barry
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 7:56 AM, Mark Hubelbank wrote:
> Barry,
> Although in the wonderful and seemingly unpredictable world of Jabiru
> cooling, I have improved cooling of my 3300 by removing baffles, this
> sounds interesting, I could not find the picture or part, could you post a
> link.
>
> Mark Hubelbank
> Ch601XL-B
> Jabiru 3300
> Sensenich adj prop
> Rotec TBI-40-3
> 240 Hours airframe
>
> On 07/13/2012 4:43 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Jeffery:
>
> Years back I was working on an RV6 that had CHT issues.
> The baffling was perfect and I could not get the Temps down. Then I
> looked at a different RV6 and I notice - WOW - Did I notice something
> different with the inlet ducts. The builder FAILED to install two small
> pieces of fiberglass that should have been glassed to the TOP of the
> cowling right behind the inlet. They were as wide as the inlet - they
> moved back about 3" and then smoothly curved up to the top of the cowl.
> This sounds confusing, but think of it like an inverted wing attached to
> the INSIDE - Upper cowl. I found the parts in his junk box - Installed
> them and WOW! The temps dropped like crazy.
>
> You could go to the RV website and order the fiberglass and give it a
> try.
>
> Barry
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <
> jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I am runnning a Jab 3300 on a Zenith CH601XLB experimental that I built.
>> The last few years I have been doing my best to get control and manage the
>> cooling of my CHT's. I'm am getting real close to pretty good temps with
>> the addition of some baffles in my ram air ducts. Before the baffles my #4
>> cylinder ran hottest, now that I have that under control my #5 and #6
>> cylinders are running as hottest almost neck to neck. Without going into
>> great detail, I am wondering what is the best action to take with what I
>> assume will be to trim the inner ram airduct baffling to increase airflow
>> to these cylinders without hurting the airflow on cylindeers #3 & #4.
>>
>> Do I work front to back, or back to front and how much do I take off?
>> Thanks for your time and consideration.
>>
>> Jeff Paris 2 Jabs one in a Zentith the other in a Europa. Rochester NY
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CHT temp and ram air duct question |
| From: | FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> |
Mark:
Here is a picture of the internal ramps.
Barry
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Mark:
>
> I could not find a direct link or pictures to the internal cowl material,
> but here is the link to Van's. Write them an email or call them. It is
> the internal curved part that goes directly over the cowl inlets. They
> will know what you are talking about.
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 7:56 AM, Mark Hubelbank wrote:
>
>> Barry,
>> Although in the wonderful and seemingly unpredictable world of Jabiru
>> cooling, I have improved cooling of my 3300 by removing baffles, this
>> sounds interesting, I could not find the picture or part, could you post a
>> link.
>>
>> Mark Hubelbank
>> Ch601XL-B
>> Jabiru 3300
>> Sensenich adj prop
>> Rotec TBI-40-3
>> 240 Hours airframe
>>
>> On 07/13/2012 4:43 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>> Jeffery:
>>
>> Years back I was working on an RV6 that had CHT issues.
>> The baffling was perfect and I could not get the Temps down. Then I
>> looked at a different RV6 and I notice - WOW - Did I notice something
>> different with the inlet ducts. The builder FAILED to install two small
>> pieces of fiberglass that should have been glassed to the TOP of the
>> cowling right behind the inlet. They were as wide as the inlet - they
>> moved back about 3" and then smoothly curved up to the top of the cowl.
>> This sounds confusing, but think of it like an inverted wing attached to
>> the INSIDE - Upper cowl. I found the parts in his junk box - Installed
>> them and WOW! The temps dropped like crazy.
>>
>> You could go to the RV website and order the fiberglass and give it a
>> try.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <
>> jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> I am runnning a Jab 3300 on a Zenith CH601XLB experimental that I
>>> built. The last few years I have been doing my best to get control and
>>> manage the cooling of my CHT's. I'm am getting real close to pretty good
>>> temps with the addition of some baffles in my ram air ducts. Before the
>>> baffles my #4 cylinder ran hottest, now that I have that under control my
>>> #5 and #6 cylinders are running as hottest almost neck to neck. Without
>>> going into great detail, I am wondering what is the best action to take
>>> with what I assume will be to trim the inner ram airduct baffling to
>>> increase airflow to these cylinders without hurting the airflow on
>>> cylindeers #3 & #4.
>>>
>>> Do I work front to back, or back to front and how much do I take off?
>>> Thanks for your time and consideration.
>>>
>>> Jeff Paris 2 Jabs one in a Zentith the other in a Europa. Rochester NY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CHT temp and ram air duct question |
| From: | Nick Otterback <info(at)flylightning.net> |
The ramps work well with RV cowl since the top of the engine is sealed to th
e cowl with baffles. Making one large plenum on the top of the engine. The p
rovided airducts from jaboru work very well when installed correctly. Besure
that the plenums fit tightly between the cylinder fins and extend down betw
een the barrles. Do not trim flush with the tops of the barrles. Also the fr
ont of the airduct must have a flat face againt the first clyinder, this goe
s from the bottom of the plenum to about the center head bolt, maybe 3" tall
. Each cylinder needs its own dam installed above it. Usually cyl 5 and 6 ha
ve factory installed dams, trim to fit around the head but do not remove any
more than needed. Clyinders 3 and 4 need about 3/8" to 1/2" tall dam. Cly 1
usually needs nothing and Cly 2 about 1/8". Its all about pressure differen
ce too, make sure your exit area at the bottomw of the cowl is about 2.5 tim
e the inlet area. If this is the case than make sure the lower cowl has abou
t a 2" fixed cowl flap for the entire exit lip. I have a few hours in a 601x
l with the older engine, thick fin heads solid lifter, and it cooled very we
ll on a hot TN day.
Thanks
Nick
Sent from my pocket
On Jul 14, 2012, at 9:02 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Mark:
>
> Here is a picture of the internal ramps.
>
> Barry
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Mark:
>
> I could not find a direct link or pictures to the internal cowl material, b
ut here is the link to Van's. Write them an email or call them. It is the i
nternal curved part that goes directly over the cowl inlets. They will know
what you are talking about.
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 7:56 AM, Mark Hubelbank wrote:
> Barry,
> Although in the wonderful and seemingly unpredictable world of Jabiru c
ooling, I have improved cooling of my 3300 by removing baffles, this sounds i
nteresting, I could not find the picture or part, could you post a link.
>
> Mark Hubelbank
> Ch601XL-B
> Jabiru 3300
> Sensenich adj prop
> Rotec TBI-40-3
> 240 Hours airframe
>
> On 07/13/2012 4:43 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>> Jeffery:
>>
>> Years back I was working on an RV6 that had CHT issues. The baffling was
perfect and I could not get the Temps down. Then I looked at a different R
V6 and I notice - WOW - Did I notice something different with the inlet duct
s. The builder FAILED to install two small pieces of fiberglass that should
have been glassed to the TOP of the cowling right behind the inlet. They w
ere as wide as the inlet - they moved back about 3" and then smoothly curved
up to the top of the cowl. This sounds confusing, but think of it like an i
nverted wing attached to the INSIDE - Upper cowl. I found the parts in his j
unk box - Installed them and WOW! The temps dropped like crazy.
>>
>> You could go to the RV website and order the fiberglass and give it a try
..
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.
com> wrote:
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I am runnning a Jab 3300 on a Zenith CH601XLB experimental that I built.
The last few years I have been doing my best to get control and manage the c
ooling of my CHT's. I'm am getting real close to pretty good temps with the
addition of some baffles in my ram air ducts. Before the baffles my #4 cyl
inder ran hottest, now that I have that under control my #5 an
d #6 cylinders are running as hottest almost neck to neck. Without going in
to great detail, I am wondering what is the best action to take with what I a
ssume will be to trim the inner ram airduct baffling to increase airflow to t
hese cylinders without hurting the airflow on cylindeers #3 & #4.
>>
>> Do I work front to back, or back to front and how much do I take off? Th
anks for your time and consideration.
>>
>> Jeff Paris 2 Jabs one in a Zentith the other in a Europa. Rochester NY
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Lis
t
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What is the relationship between |
| From: | "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Thanks Barry Check 6,
I hope I'm not to much of a Mystery Man. I'm an 68 year old retire(semi-retire
pilot/mechanic) working on my Europa with a 3300L Jabiru. First flight was
June 8, 2012. It only lasted six minutes because of high temp on all the cylinders.
I have been working to get them all down and finally made a flight last
Monday of 46 minutes. Four and Six were still running hot, but reducing power
kept them from going near red line. Oil temps started coming up as the air
temp at my altitude were 85. DA was about 1200 feet.
I rechecked my blade pitch and it was 20 degrees. I re-set it to 18.2. I have
been working on the lower cowl to seal the oil cooler off. Should have that
completed today. On my sixth flight of 30 minutes the oil temps were good, but
the cowling had dropped down and when I found the reason and fixed it it opened
the area in front of the oil cooler and on the next flight the temp slowly
came up. Hopefully, I have fixed this problem.
Thanks to all on this web site as I have been reading your problems and remarks
for the last year. I hope to learn something everyday.
Rick Stockton
N120EJ
Jabiru 3300L
Whirlwind Ground adjustable
Dixon, CA
KDWA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378387#378387
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MGL Odyessey connected to Jabiru 3300 |
| From: | "selwyn" <selwyn(at)ellisworks.com.au> |
It is automotive resistive and (I think) 400 ohm. I can check if you like but
the value you get should tell you pretty quickly. My 3300A runs low - mid 30's
psi when hot.
--------
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378596#378596
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MGL Odyessey connected to Jabiru 3300 |
| From: | "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net> |
March 15, 2012 - July 20, 2012
JabiruEngine-Archive.digest.vol-as